Dr. Lawrence Pijeaux (1997)

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Dr. Lawrence J. Pijeaux, the Executive Director of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. I'm Dr. Horace Huntley presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is June 11, 1997. Dr. Pijeaux, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to sit and talk with me this morning. Basically what we're doing is just trying to develop some brief biographies and you being the Executive Director of the Institute, you're one of the first persons we really need to look at in this regard. So, we' ll talk about you and your background. Where are you from?

PIJEAUX: I'm from New Orleans, Louisiana.

HUNTLEY: New Orleans , Louisiana. Your parents, were they originally from New Orleans?

PIJEAUX: Yes, both of my parents are from New Orleans. From different sections of the city.

HUNTLEY: Ok.

PIJEAUX: My mother is from an area that would be considered, I think now it' s called Six Ward.

New Orleans is divided up into Wards and the wards is geographic in nature. Just like you have north, south, east and west. Here in New Orleans you have third ward, fourth ward, sixth ward, seventh ward. My mother was from the sixth ward which was primarily located in downtown New Orleans. My dad is 0riginally from the seventh ward which is basically south west. It's adjacent to sixth ward, southwest of downtown.

HUNTLEY: So, both of them were born in New Orleans, in the city?

PIJEAUX: Yes, yes, that's right.

HUNTLEY: Were their parents from New Orleans as well?

PIJEAUX: Yes. My grandparents lived long enough for me to get to know them. I 00:02:00think one of the things you need to know about my family is that they are a mixture of Creoles. Creoles I guess what would be called multi-cultural today. It' s a mixture of French and African­ American.

HUNTLEY: Pijeaux? What is the name Pijeaux, is that French?

PIJEAUX: It's a French name. Yes, it really is. As I was explaining with this whole Creole background that I b1ing. My father is a very fair skin person and all of his family members are. More often I know when people think of Creoles they think of light skinned people, but they don't realize that they are a mixture of people, some are light skinned, some are dark skinned. My mother's family, they are dark skinned Creoles but the one thing they had in common was 00:03:00the language. Unfortunately, that's something that wasn't passed on to my generation, but I have these vivid memories of my grandmothers' --both my dad's mother and my mother's mother--speaking Creole. Which is a form of broken French.

HUNTLEY: Would that be similar to ebonies?

PIJEAUX: (Laughing) Yes, right. I find it interesting that when we talk about ebonies that our people have been bilingual since we first came to this country. That's nothing to be ashamed of. We had to find a way to communicate among our own because we came here in a situation where we were stripped of our language. We came with many languages.

HUNTLEY: So, we developed a language that would be suitable somewhere in between one and the other.

PIJEAUX: It was a language that we all became very familiar with and more often 00:04:00or that all of us have grown up with some form of what's now called ebonies.

HUNTLEY: Absolutely. You know the New Orleans thing is very fascinating to me being from Birmingham. I see just the city itself, the layout of the city and it's an old city. Can you just talk about New Orleans, the early days in New Orleans? Before you do that let me ask you though about your parents. The education level of your father and your mother. Did they finish high school?

PIJEAUX: No, neither of them finished high school. I guess they were probably what's called middle school drop outs if you would. Both of them dropped out either in seventh or eighth grade, trying to find a way to survive in this cruel country we lived in.

HUNTLEY: Do you have siblings?

PIJEAUX: Yes, I have two sisters who are both younger than I. One of the things that was, not unique in my family, but I think c01m11on to us as a people of my generation and that is education was always important. I remember as my sisters and I went to high school and beyond it was always important to our parents that we did well, that we did our homework even though they couldn't determine whether or not what we did was right, they know we had done something. They made an assumption that it was "A-OK" but the bottom line is that we had to do homework every night.

HUNTLEY: Absolutely. What type of work did your parents do?

PIJEAUX: My mother was a housewife for the most part and my dad was many things including porier, bus driver, not bus driver, truck driver, but basically what would be called a laborer, a common laborer.

HUNTLEY: The area of New Orleans that you grew up in what area was it?

PIJEAUX: The ninth ward, which was the southern part of the city. A very poor section of the city, most of the people that lived in that area were like my parents.

HUNTLEY: Working class community.

PIJEAUX: Yeah, very much so.

HUNTLEY: Tell me just a bit about your elementary school days. What elementary school did you start?

PIJEAUX: I attended McCarty Elementary School, all black. All black elementary school. Academics was always important at the school, always important. I remember growing up, not only in elementary school but junior high and senior high, I was a product of a segregated school system. In many ways I think I'm ahead of the game in terms of education because education was always a high priority. I remember all of my teachers telling me that you have to be better than everybody else if you' re going to succeed in this world. So, my teachers, 00:07:00in particular there was a gentleman, Mr. Lewis, I remember very vividly and I have fond memories of this guy; for some reason he liked me. He saw something in me, he always encouraged me to do well in school. Even as I became an adult our paths crossed frequently when I moved into public education returning to the school system that I had graduated from this guy was an assistant principal and he encouraged me to return to school and get an advanced degree and ultimately he became a peer of mine. We were principals at the same period of time in New Orleans. It was him, then there was another guy that I met in high school, who again is a black male, who saw something in me and encouraged me to go on into school. This guy, Daniel McLean, who I met when I was in high school encouraged 00:08:00me to pursue mt as a career. So, that's what got me into the visual mis.

HUNTLEY: Were you involved in any extracurricular activities in high school?

PIJEAUX: Yes, I played in high school I played basketball. In junior high I played in several sports. I participated in several sports including football and basketball, but when I moved to high school I was really interested in art and I sang in the choir and then I played basketball.

HUNTLEY: So, you were somewhat of a renaissance man in term of high school, in terms of sports, art and you were a good student as well. You had basically--you suggested that you had-­ a person or persons that were interested in you and they helped you to develop that vision that you were developing.

PIJEAUX: At every step there was somebody, not only my parents, but there was 00:09:00somebody out there, more often or not it was a black male. In junior high school I met an African­ American female. You notice I'm bouncing between Black and African-American. Well, I'm old enough to go from nigger, colored, to Afro, African. To all these titles are labels that they associated with our side. I remember that, but there has always been somebody in my life who has seen some ability in me and that person has encouraged me. I've tried to pass that on. I've tried to identify people who have some ability and I've tried to help them cause I've learned from people who have helped me.

HUNTLEY: What year did you finish high school?

PIJEAUX: I graduated from McDonald 35 Senior High School in New Orleans, 00:10:00Louisiana in 1962. All black high school, college prep high school, very small.

HUNTLEY: What do you mean in term of numbers?

PIJEAUX: Numbers, if I'm not mistaken we had less than 400 people in the entire school. In my graduating class we may have had 70 to 75 people. The principal knew everybody by name, he had a doctorate from Harvard. In some ways when I became a principal I kind of patterned myself after this guy. He knew what he was doing, he was always well groomed and he tried to get to know everybody in the school, he's another person I had good memories about.

HUNTLEY: Was this a public school?

PIJEAUX: Public school.

HUNTLEY: New Orleans school system, 400. Was this an average sized school or was this a small

school?

PIJEAUX: This was a small school. It had selected enrollment, you had to apply for admission. Really when I was in middle school, or junior high school as my school was, I really wasn' t thinking about attending a college prep high 00:11:00school. I went to the school because of some of my friends that were attending the school who encouraged me to attend the school and did not realize for the most pain what I was experiencing until long after the expe1ience. When I became an adult and looked back and saw so many people who were graduates from this school who had gone on to do a lot of positive things in the country. Then I really had a much better appreciation for the experience that I had.

HUNTLEY: Was this a neighborhood school or did you have to 1ide the bus?

PIJEAUX: I rode the bus. I passed by several White schools where folks were calling me nigger and 2-4-6-8 we don't want to integrate. Man, I remember. Those things, I think, have helped to make me the person that I am. I'm strong in some 00:12:00of my convictions. I think I'm a lot more sensitive to the needs of other people based on my expe1iences. Those experiences also helped me develop self-confidence.

HUNTLEY: This was a time, the early 60s, when school were desegregated. Was that happening in New Orleans at the time?

PIJEAUX: Sure, yes it was.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever consider or did your family ever consider you being one of those students to desegregate one of the White schools?

PIJEAUX: No. That was never a consideration. I was happy where I was, I was having a great time. My parents were pleased with the education I was receiving, so that was never a consideration. Even when I went on to college. I wanted to be with my people. I had gained and benefited from the nourishment that I had received in this all black environment for the most part. When I made a decision 00:13:00on entering graduate school then I went to a different envirom11ent. I went to Tulane University. Really I went there because of neighboring commissions and resources that the school offered.

HUNTLEY: After you finished high school, then did you immediately go on to college?

PIJEAUX: Yes I did. I went from high school, I went from McDonald 35 to Southern University in New Orleans, which was a branch of the main campus in Baton Rouge. Really from then on I was working, I was out there in the world of work, working my way through college.

HUNTLEY: So, you worked during the time.

PIJEAUX: I worked while I was attending school.

HUNTLEY: This of course was a very important time as far as the movement was concerned. With you going to school and working you didn't have the opportunity then to be involved in a lot of the demonstrations, I would assume.

PIJEAUX: Yes and no. I was involved cause our university was involved in some 00:14:00demonstrations. My major contribution was the boycott. I would not spend my money at any place or with anybody that did not have any appreciation for me and my people.

HUNTLEY: 1962, here in Birn1ingham that is what we called the Selected Buying Campaign, in fact it was a boycott. It was illegal to use the term boycott, so they used the Selected Buying Campaign. The downtown stores were affected and it was based upon primarily the Alabama Christian Movement and so1i of a coalition with some of the Miles College students. It was very successful. Did the same kind of situation exist in New Orleans at this same time?

PIJEAUX: Yes, sure. Basically the same things that were happening in Birmingham were happening in New Orleans to varying degrees. We were boycotting, we were.......

HUNTLEY: Sit ins.

PIJEAUX: We had sit ins, we had boycotts, people were not 1iding the bus, you name it we were doing it.

HUNTLEY: The buses were set up in the same manner as Birmingham's?

PIJEAUX: Same system.

HUNTLEY: You had the board...

PIJEAUX: You sat behind. You sat behind, we called it the screen but it was really a board, but we called it the screen. I remember as a kid riding the bus with my grandmother, my father' s mother, who's a very, very fair ski1med woman and my grandmother would not sit behind that screen. Nobody could tell whether she was White or Black, so nobody bothered her. So, I had the experience of riding in front of the screen and behind the screen during the period of time when it was illegal for black people to ride in front of the screen.

HUNTLEY: That depended on the grandmother you rode with.

PIJEAUX: That's right. (Laughing) That was a real interesting experience. My grandmother lived in Uptown, New Orleans, adjacent to what is now called the 00:16:00Garden District. So, it was a mixed neighborhood and I remember as a youngster, I was probably somewhere between 8 and 12 playing with my grandmother's neighbor's grandchildren when we used to visit her in the summer. These were White kids, we'd play together in the neighborhood and nobody would bother us and we had a real good relationship. I often wonder how these kids are doing having been adults for a long time now. When we would go to the movie I would be upstairs, I had to go around the side.

HUNTLEY: Oh, you went to the movies together?

PIJEAUX: We would go to the movies together, but we couldn't sit together. We'd be in the movie throwing popcorn at one another. I was upstairs in the balcony throwing popcorn at them downstairs and they would be downstairs throwing it 00:17:00back at me. We had a real good relationship. At that period of time I wasn't really aware of the differences between the races, but as I got older I really became very cognizant of the differences. What some people could do and what some people couldn't do. A part of that experience has stayed with me and has motivated me to bring about some changes in what take? place with people. I find it ironic that here I am at the Institute where I can bring about some change.

HUNTLEY: That reminds me of growing up. We had white friends as well, but it's up to the start of school and once we started school they went to their school and we went to our school and we would see each other occasionally after school, but as we grew older we grew apart.

PIJEAUX: Yeah, that was the experience I had with these young people that lived 00:18:00next to my grandmother.

HUNTLEY: Why did you make the decision to go to Southern New Orleans?

PIJEAUX: Well, all the long the way through my schooling from elementary, junior high and high school my teachers encouraged me to attend an all Black school. I could've gone to other schools but I wanted to continue my educational experience in an all Black arena. The expectations for me were high. The nurturing I thought would be different in that envirom11ent. I did not want to become a number, a statistic. I wanted to attend school where people had some appreciation for my experiences and could relate to those expe1iences.

HUNTLEY: Did you consider going to Baton Rouge?

PIJEAUX: Yes, I did. After spending a year at Southern in New Orleans, I spent a year at Grambling.

HUNTLEY: Oh, ok.

PIJEAUX: Had a good expe1ience but didn't have the money to stay there, so I dropped out for a while and traveled around the country as a waiter.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

PIJEAUX: Yeah. I've had some unique expe1iences.

HUNTLEY: You went to Southern New Orleans....

PIJEAUX: I started at Southern New Orleans and then transferred to Grambling.

HUNTLEY: What was that transition like? Now you were big city really going to Grambling, which is basically a rural area. What was that transition like?

PIJEAUX: It was, I enjoyed it because for the first time in my life I was out there on my own and I had to take care of myself. Some of the things that my mother helped me with as a kid; learning how to press clothes, learning how to wash, fold clothes, do a little cooking, all of those things that this lady had been telling me would be impo1tant and that I reluctantly did. Here they came looking at me square in the face where I had to do these things. So, it was a 00:20:00smooth adjustment, one that I didn't realize would come about as quickly as it came about, but I was able to do those things that I needed to do to survive. I really enjoyed that expe1ience, it taught me about survival skills, it taught me how to make it in this world. Unfortunately, I just didn't have the money to stay at Grambling and then I dropped out of school.

HUNTLEY: Let me ask you before you start talking about that. You were some of a sports enthusiast and now you're at Grambling. Eddie Robinson is at Grambling. Of course, during this period we're talking about Grambling football.

PIJEAUX: Grambling football and basketball. Willis Reed was on the team then when I was at Grambling.

HUNTLEY: Can you talk about that?

PIJEAUX: That was the most exciting college or university experience that I've had in my life. The campus was a hot bed for academics, athletics and music. Not 00:21:00only did they have an outstanding football team, they had an outstanding baseball team, they had an outstanding basketball team, and they had one of the top bands in the country. The band was traveling all around the country and a lot of people don' t realize that. Grambling at this time was producing several major league baseball players, a lot of people don't realize that. The president was the coach.

HUNTLEY: Of the baseball team?

PIJEAUX: Of the baseball team, the president of the University was the head baseball coach at this time.

HUNTLEY: I didn't realize that.

PIJEAUX: Yeah, yeah. It was just a real interesting expe1ience. The team that Willis Reed played on and many people may not know it but Willis Reed is in the Hall of Fame. If I'm not mistaken he was selected as one of the 50 top basketball players. Well the team that Willis Reed was on also produced other 00:22:00professional basketball players, Jimmy Jones, was one. Jimmy Jones became a player with the Baltimore Bullets if I'm not mistaken. They won a championship. Well, you had all these things going on.

HUNTLEY: Had Buchanan left there?

PIJEAUX: Buchanan had just left there.

HUNTLEY: See, he was a Birmingham boy.

PIJEAUX: Right, I know. We had Buchanan there, James Harris was on the way out, he became the first big time NFL quarterback. They had others I think, I think maybe the first may have been the kid from, well not a kid now, but the first may have been a guy from the University of Te1mes see who played wide receiver and quarterback for a very short time in the NFL.

HUNTLEY: Harris was really the first to make it as a quarterback.

PIJEAUX: Yes. There was a lot of excitement in the air back there and I really 00:23:00wanted to stay there, but again I didn't have the money.

HUNTLEY: So, then what did you do?

PIJEAUX: I dropped out of school for about two years.

HUNTLEY: Did you go back to New Orleans?

PIJEAUX: I did go to New Orleans. I had an uncle who was a professional waiter, who was in a management position. I had worked for him during the summers and after school on occasions and be was traveling around the country as a waiter. He worked for a company. Well, I worked with him and traveled to different parts of the country working as a professional waiter. Saved a little money, helped purchase a home for my parents during that period of time.

HUNTLEY: On a waiter's salary?

PIJEAUX: As a waiter.

HUNTLEY: You were traveling the country. Where did you go?

PIJEAUX: When we worked in Pine Bluff, Arkansas at a race track there. We worked 00:24:00at Churchill Downs where you had the Kentucky Derby. We worked at Kellin' s Race Course in Lexington, Kentucky where you had, well, at the time, one of the most beautiful race tracks in the world, Kellin ' s Race Course. I worked at a place called the Red Mount Trotting Track, New Orleans. There was a real circuit that we traveled.

HUNTLEY: Now your uncle was a mm1age r in the company.

PIJEAUX: Well, he was a manager in the dining room, in many places he was the head waiter and in some places he was a captain.

HUNTLEY: How long did you do this?

PIJEAUX: I did that on a regular basis for two years. Part time maybe for several years while working my way through school.

HUNTLEY: How long did it take you to get back to school?

PIJEAUX: About two years.

HUNTLEY: And you went where?

PIJEAUX: I went back to Southern in New Orleans. From there after spending about 00:25:00a year I think in Southern in New Orleans and when I went back to Southern in New Orleans and stopped traveling I was hired as a bus driver in New Orleans. I was one of the first African-American bus d1ivers in New Orleans. 1 worked for the transit company at night as a driver and I attended Southern in New Orleans during the day. So, again I'm still working my way through school.

Saved up a little money and then transferred to Southern in Baton Rouge because Southern in New Orleans was about 3 or 4 years old at the time and they did not have an education department. I was pursuing a degree in art, but decided to focus on education because there wasn't too many African-Americans making money 00:26:00as fine artists. So, I decided I would become a teacher. I was impressed and the work that some of the people had impacted me in a positive way. That was my first goal to give something back to the community. To return as a teacher.

HUNTLEY: So, when you then finished at Southern Baton Rouge was that your first position in New Orleans?

PIJEAUX: It was. Before I graduated, as a matter of fact, I was recruited for a position in New Orleans.

HUNTLEY: What level, high school or elementary school?

PIJEAUX: It was a middle school. The school district was changing from the junior/senior high concept to the middle school/high school concept. So, I was hired by a gentleman that knew me from my days as a student. He remembered me playing ball. I played basketball against him. He was a coach and he had become 00:27:00the personnel director. He knew a little bit about my background. I wasn't fresh, I hadn't just gone from high school to college and returned for a job. He knew that I had a variety of experiences and saw that as a plus. He hired me to work at a middle school that was involved in desegregation. Tough job, but I had a lot of fun.

HUNTLEY: That should have been an experience though because you were talking about the whole concept of desegregating this being a changing school. Was it a White school that was changing?

PIJEAUX: Well, it was a White school that was bringing Blacks in. Now, think about my background. I felt up to the challenge. I had a variety of experiences. I had gone through, as a high school student, the fury of whites that were in 00:28:00opposition to the desegregation of the public school system. The system had desegregated never integrated. It was in the process of desegregation and it was a very slow process. This school that I was headed to as an art instructor was in its second or third year of this cold desegregation movement in New Orleans. All of the schools didn't move towards desegregation at the same pace. This school bused in youngsters from different areas of the city to help this desegregation work. It was a struggle.

HUNTLEY: I've heard all kinds of stories from teachers who went into situations such as that, about the difficulties that they had with children as well as with administration. What were your experiences?

PIJEAUX: It was a tough environment to be in. One, many of the students found themselves in a desegregated environment and the kids still stayed close to those youngsters who were like family in many ways. There was not a lot of mingling, where you did find mingling was in the performing arts and athletics, where you find it now. So, you see now it's not so different from what I experienced 25 years ago. In terms of the staff, I can only give some assumptions. I felt some resentment from those Whites that had been in the school, who saw the school gradually changing in terms of the racial makeup of the professional staff. I really feel that the experiences that I brought to this job really helped me to make what I felt was a smooth transition from the 00:30:00university level to my first job as an instructor. I went to this school during the middle of the school year, people really needed me. So, that was a plus for me, they needed me. They had been through several all teachers who had no control, based on what I saw and what I was told prior to my arrival. They had no control over the kids and the kids were very disrespectful. When I went in, I felt some of the kids started off challenging me, but very quickly they understood that I was there to provide educational experiences for them and no matter what I was going to do that. So, for after about a week it was clear understanding who was in control.

HUNTLEY: Some people ask the question rather your Creole background assisted you in any way, or in New Orleans Creole was either Black or White just like any 00:31:00place else?

PIJEAUX: The assumption, I think, could be that because I'm fair skinned that maybe things were easier for me than they may have been for darker skinned African-Americans. That was not the case for me, it was not the case and again I'm making some assumptions here. I think it wasn't the case because I see myself being a little different. I've always had some appreciation for who I am and I've always been who I am. With me, what you see is what you get. I've never been willing to sell myself for any doggone thing. If I believe it, then that's the way I'm headed. If l don' t believe in it, then I'm going to tell you that and we can agree to disagree, we don't have to be enemies. I've never been one 00:32:00who would be willing to settle myself for anything.

HUNTLEY: So, in New Orleans, you were either Black or white. There was no, like in Brazil there is something called the Mulatto Escape Hatch, where people that are lighter skinned are not put at the same level as a Black person, but of course you are not at the level of that person that is white either. That didn't exist in New Orleans?

PIJEAUX: Yeah, there were varying degrees of that, sure. People made assumptions about people based on how they looked initially. My experience has been, once you see how people operate, once they find out if they can buy or sell you, then they will treat you a little bit differently. There have been several people in my home town who felt--and again I'm dealing with assumptions because I don't 00:33:00know all the facts--as an outsider looking in. I felt people were given an opportunity because of the way they look ed and then they were able to hold onto those opportunities because of what they did. In many instances, what they did was for them and only them, or for them and for people who were close, but not for the masses. I have never been brought into that mentality.

HUNTLEY: So, there was, of course, the whole concept of color consciousness.

PIJEAUX: Sure.

HUNTLEY: But also the concept of class. How did that play into the New Orleans situation? The

school that you were going into, was that in a working class neighborhood just like the one that you came out of?

PIJEAUX: Oh, it was in what I would describe as a red light district. It was an oasis in a sewer. This school that I attended was in downtown New Orleans on 00:34:00Rampart Street. Have you heard of Rampart Street, the history of Rampart Street? Let me tell you this, my school was directly, my high school, was directly across from what my grandmother would call a house of [inaudible] and I remember looking out of my chemistry class window at men who were across the street from me in a building where they would have their underwear on the line and these men wore rags around, they tied rags around their head and they would flirt with other men. On occasion when the instructor would turn his head and he would be 00:35:00talking about chemical makeups of various things, some of my friends and I would be saying ugly things to these people in this building. I remember one occasion we went to lunch and we found ourselves teasing some guys and they chased us all through the school house. That tells you a little bit about the high school I attended. Even with all of that Dr. Huntley, education was always held at high esteem at this place.

HUNTLEY: Now, the school that you first taught in, was it in the same area?

PIJEAUX: No, this school was on Esplande, which at the time was a middle class neighborhood that served the traditional middle class community at that time 00:36:00which was White. So, there was some concern from members of the community about the change in the school and the community started changing. People started moving out. Whites started moving out and Blacks started moving in. Now, today, like many schools, it's become an all Black school.

HUNTLEY: Now you stayed in education and you became a principal in New Orleans.

PIJEAUX: Right.

HUNTLEY: How long did it take you to arrive at that position?

PIJEAUX: Very quickly. As I look back on my life things have happened. It took me a while to get started, but after I got started things just started happening very quickly to me. I was in the classroom. I worked at Southern University in New Orleans for two years. Well, let me give you a chronology of this. I worked 00:37:00at the middle school, it was McDonald 28. I worked there for one year. After that year... I worked there for one semester, not one year because I went there in the middle of the school year. I graduated in January and went there sho1ily after graduation and spent a semester there, did a good job. The school system wanted me to stay, but I was offered a position at Southern University in New Orleans. One of my former instructors was accepted at Indiana University to work on a doctorate, so he recommended me to replace him. I stayed there for two years.

HUNTLEY: What did you do there?

PIJEAUX: I was an instructor. I worked in the Art Department; had a great experience. I realized at that time I wanted to help mold and shape the lives of young people. So, I decided I did not want to work at the university level at that time. Went to graduate school at Tulane and not only did I earn a Master of 00:38:00Arts in teaching Degree but I certified for principalship. I was selected for an assistant principalship shortly after that. After coming out... I'm trying to revisit all this in my head; after earning my Masters I went to Ellen McMain, which is a public school in New Orleans, which was starting a college prep program. So, because of my background and my credentials I was selected for this job at McMain. I stayed there for two years and then I moved into assistant principal ship. Stayed at the assistant principal level for, I think, four or five years and then moved into the principalship.

HUNTLEY: What type of school did you receive as your first school as a principal?

PIJEAUX: Well, my first year was the acting principal of a school I had been an assistant principal. That school was predominantly Black, relatively new school, poorly constructed, poorly designed.

HUNTLEY: Large school?

PIJEAUX: Real large school. Grades 9-12 had in excess of 2,200 students. Good experience for me though, because it gave me an opportunity to see what could be done in this school. Like many people...when you're second or third in conm1and you' re always second guessing the person who's heading the ship. I was like that and when it became my turn to take care of the building I had to quickly, quickly my friend. I developed a much better appreciation and understanding for 00:40:00what the guy who I was replacing was expe1iencing, because for the first time the buck stopped with me. I couldn't pass it to anybody. I couldn't say the principal wanted me to do this. I couldn't say I was following directions. I had to make decisions and it was a great learning expe1ience for me and we did make changes. We were able to show growth in test scores, and we were able to turn a deficit into a solid budget. In a very short period of time, we were able to do some of these things. I had the advantage of working in the environment. So, I knew where some changes could be made, unlike somebody who was brand new, who would have to find out where the changes had to be made.

HUNTLEY: How long did you stay there?

PIJEAUX: I stayed there for one year. I stayed there for one year and then was selected to head up a school that everybody thought was going to fail. They were 00:41:00ready to close this place. So, they said give it to Pijeaux, he' s not going to do anything with this place. Well, as fate would have it a few years later we were able to show substantial growth, not only in test scores, reduced the violence at the school and...

HUNTLEY: All of these are inner schools?

PIJEAUX: All of these are inner schools, public schools, where I'm working. Now, as I'm working at this school I am the p1incipal. I enter the University of Southern Mississippi in Hattiesburg in the Doctoral Program and become very interested in the effective schools research. A lot of people don't realize it, but one of the fathers of that movement is Ryan Edmunds, a brother who worked in New York City and in Michigan and other parts of the country and basically what 00:42:00this brother was saying is: We know eve1ything we need to know to make a difference in schools. The question is do we want to change things? He also believed, as I do, it doesn't matter where kids come from, what matters is what you do within the four walls of those schools and kids should not be held accountable for the actions of their parents. It's no kids fault he may grow up in an environment like I did, where my parents weren't well educated, or grow up in an environment like I did where my people were poor. None of those things have doodley squat to do with whether or not this kid can achieve in school. I really embraced that notion when I started this Doctoral Program because I was looking for what I could find that was out there that was being done. I didn't want to reinvent the wheel, I wanted to find out what was being done.

Some of the things this brother found as he did his research around the country 00:43:00and there were other people working with him. Some people heard of Brook Overen and there's a few other people who I can't recall right now. But I did my research on this for my doctoral. A couple of things that you can find in schools that are effective. One, people are clear on the goals, they know where they're going. Two, they monitor student perfo1mance. Three the schools are clean and orderly, these places are safe and when you see people moving around everybody can see that there' s some business taking place here and you don't have to go visit a school and stay in somebody's classroom for 30 or 40 minutes to get some sense of what's going on. When you walk in that building you can tell whether or not that education is impo1iant. So, I traveled to some of the school districts that were expe1iencing some success. I went to Memphis, visited with Hanington who is now mayor, he was supe1intendent, went to some of his 00:44:00schools. Saw some of the same characteristics that Edmund was talking about there. Went to Atlanta...

HUNTLEY: This is when you were working on your doctorate?

PIJEAUX: This is when I'm working on my doctorate and principal of a school. I met Alonso Crem, who was doing some real positive things. Crem and Hanington were probably the two longest tenured African-American superintendents in any major school systems in this country. Those guys made some positive changes in those dist1icts. Those things that Ryan Edmunds had found in his research, I found it in those schools that were doing well in those two cities. So, I implemented those things.

HUNTLEY: You were principal and you worked on your doctorate at the same time?

PIJEAUX: Yes, yes.

HUNTLEY: How did you juggle those two?

PIJEAUX: Well, once I found what I was looking for in terms of what I could use 00:45:00at the school sight to make a positive impact on students and teachers then I kind of backed off on the doctorate and spent some time, I mean doing some serious things in schools. I was selected as one of ten American hems in education. I think it was 1989 and left New Orleans and went to New Jersey and took on another principalship.

HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to leave New Orleans?

PIJEAUX: Well, that's a whole other story. It's related to my wife and I making a decision that it was time for us to leave. But left New Orleans and took on a principalship in New Jersey and with my wife, my assistant and my mother encouraging me to return to school to complete the Doctorate. With that support I did that.

HUNTLEY: Ok.

PIJEAUX: So, I finished the Doctorate. I was commuting between two cities in New Jersey working on the Doctorate and also commuting between New Jersey and 00:46:00Mississippi working on the Doctorate. It was a struggle, but it was worth it. I eventually finished the doggone thing.

HUNTLEY: You go from a southern city, inner city school system to an eastern 00:47:00city in New Jersey. What are the differences and similarities in terms of schools?

PIJEAUX: Contrary to belief, I found that the schools in the East, in particular those that I was involved in, were more segregated and more problems that I had experienced in the South. There were more divisions, there were more groups. You bad people in these schools from different parts of the world and they had their own groups. So, there were more internal problems between students and among students in the school systems that I am familiar with in the East.

HUNTLEY: How long were you in New Jersey?

PIJEAUX: I was in New Jersey for about two and a half years maybe three years.

HUNTLEY: Then you get an opportunity to move again and go to Indianapolis.

PIJEAUX: Going to Indianapolis, going back to an opportunity to go return to my first love. Which was art. I started up a new program at the Indianapolis Museum 00:48:00of Art. They had received a lot of money from the same group that had selected me as one of ten American Negroes in education a few years later. Readers Digest gave a big chunk of money to this museum to diversify its audience. They were looking for someone who could do that. They were really looking for somebody from their own area. I applied for the job and was selected. Shortly after taking on this position I realized that there were opportunities in this field. A lot of opportunities for African-Americans. I said to my wife I think I've stumbled onto something.

HUNTLEY: What did you see in Indianapolis that you liked that would keep you in 00:49:00that particular area and in that field?

PIJEAUX: Well, I liked the city, thought it was a nice place to raise a family. My kids were getting older. I thought it was a nice place to raise a family. I thought it was a great opportunity because it was a new position, the people didn't know exactly how they were going to get to where they were going, but they knew where they wanted to go. So, I thought I could create. I thought I could use my creative ability. I'm a creative person. It was another opportunity for me to help people. Now you think about all of the different things that I have done, they've all been related to helping people. You think about what I told you when I said I wanted to return to New Orleans as a teacher. It was to give back. Every place I've been there has been this thing in my head that's 00:50:00saying: hey, don't forget where you come from, you have to help other people, people have helped you to get where you are. So, that has been an underlying motive of all of the jobs that I have had. That has been something that has been a d1iving force in me. Trying to help other people, trying to help my own people. Trying to help other people have a better understanding of us.

Trying to help us understand ourselves. All of those things are in this mix that I am feeling. Indianapolis also was, as I said, it was an opportunity for me to keep moving in this direction, but it was also an opportunity for me to go back to something that I cared about for most of my life and that was art. I've always been connected to art in some form or fashion. It was also an opportunity for me to utilize most of the things that I had experienced in life. My 00:51:00administrative experience, my interest in education, my interest in art, what I perceived to be and I still think I have this ability to work with people to move toward a common goal. So, I thought I could put all of those things together at the Indianapolis Museum of Art. While at the same time, explore a new field.

HUNTLEY: Before we get too far in the field you are presently involved in as an educator, what happened with education you've seen in the South, you saw it in the East during the period of time when we were in school during om generation. You made the statement that people cared and they challenged you. What happened that now inner city education is totally under fire, what took place to create 00:52:00that difference in the last 20-30 years?

PIJEAUX: I think a lot of things have happened. If I could really answer that and resolve this I could make a lot of money. I will tell you some things that I think have contributed to the problems that we see now. One, we have problems within our families. We have a lot of homes that are not headed by anybody, because to be honest we are talking about whether they are headed by male or female. Some of these homes are headed by children. I see that as a problem. There has been a problem with youngsters as I see it not respecting adults. Now why that exists, it has to be related to their experiences at home but to really 00:53:00define it in any one form or fashion I can't, but that is a problem. I see youngsters walking on the streets, they' re using vulgar language, disregard of any adult who is in ear shot of what they are saying. During my time you could not do that. You would have a big problem. Adults are afraid to talk to kids, that's another part of the problem.

In schools, as I see it, the number one problem is low expectations. We expect kids to fail and so they fail. I think if we could address the expectations of youngsters in a positive way, I think we would experience more success. Now I am really over simplifying this doggone problem, but the number one thing as an educator that I see is that the expectations are low for kids and no matter what 00:54:00we say we can't fool these kids. It's not what you say, it' s what you do. It's what you convey to kids nonverbally about what you expect from them, I think, that they really believe.

HUNTLEY: In Birmingham we have a situation where education is under fire. As an educator are there any areas that you see, whether it' s Birmingham, New Orleans, or New York, that you definitely will have to deal with in order to connect what we feel is wrong in our system today?

PIJEAUX: Every place I've been, Horace, it's been the same problem. It' s at the board level. That's where you have to start. You have to really find people who have children as their number one priori ty and will bite these tough bullets 00:55:00that we need to look at in a very affirmative way. That will have a positive impact on children. I've lived in New Orleans, I've lived in New Jersey, I've lived in Indiana and now here I am in Birmingham. Every place the problems are similar. From my perspective it appears as though we are not getting the right leadership at the board level. As a result of that, those problems that you are experiencing at the board level, they filter down to the superintendent and from the superintendent to the staff. Education, positive, effective, meaningful education has to be a top priority at the board level, we have to move away from 00:56:00these political problems that we are experiencing.

HUNTLEY: You would somehow find out about a position in Birmingham, Alabama. You are at the Museum of Art in Indianapolis and you make a decision to leave there and come to Birmingham. Why?

PIJEAUX: Well, I think it' s important for me to share with you, one, how I found out about the position and why somebody thought I might be the guy. After working at the Indianapolis Museum of Art for about four months I became aware of the African­ American Museum Association and I joined. I attended a conference in Roanoke, Virginia and met some of the key players in the 00:57:00organization. Comparatively speaking when you look at other professional organizations, AAMA, as I will refer to it, is a small group, but there are a lot of committed people in the group. I shared with some of the council members, as a matter of fact, I met one of the council members on the plane going to Roanoke. I didn't know this lady was on the council, told her a little bit about my background, that I was at the Indianapolis Museum of Ali that I wanted to make a contribution, that I wanted to help. I wanted to learn as much as I could while working in Indianapolis, but my goal was to go to an African-American Museum where I could continue what I've been doing all my life, as what I said, trying to help people, trying to educate folks. Unbeknowing to me, there was a council meeting and my name surfaces.

I had talked with other council members during my stay in Roanoke, not knowing 00:58:00these people are on the council, but folks see that I'm new and they want to know what I'm doing, etc. So, I'm saying to a variety of people basically the same thing. Hey, I want to get involved, I wanna help, let me know what I can do. Well, not only do you tell people you want to help, you find yourself with a job. So, I found myself being asked to help with the next conference, and I did. Within a very short period of time, make a long story short, I became a council member. The president of the association and other council members and other people in the field quickly learned that I was in the field, that I was interested in helping, that I was working at a museum under what's called the mainstream museum in the field and that I had something to offer and people 00:59:00encouraged me. Here I go again, people encouraging me saying, hey, something is going to open up, be patient. As I told you before, in many instances things have happened to me quickly and within two and a half years in the field, I became very popular. During that time, the guy that I worked for recognized he could use me, he could use me to promote what he was doing at his museum. I recognized that, but I also saw the opportunity to let people in the field know that I had some ability. So, I said, ok use me, but I'm going to let people know what I had on the ball here. So, it was a win-win situation, my working in Indianapolis. I was able to help some people. Some of those people were our 01:00:00people who became subcontractors with the museum, employees with the museum, we did some programing with that museum. So, we were able to help.

HUNTLEY: You got the Black community involved with the museum.

PIJEAUX: That's right that was my charge, not only as visitors but as employees. That was important to me. Not just full-time employees, but people who provide services to the museum that brought them funds. The museum was contracting with a lot of people, so we brought in some African-Americans, who they can contract with, who they have not contracted with previously. So, we were able to help the African-American community during our brief stay there. Also, expose to the museum staff African-Americans who knew what they were doing. So, they had a 01:01:00better appreciation, I think, of what we had in the community. It gave the director an opportunity to showcase an African-American that he had, so he was able to go and tell his colleges that I got one. I understood what that was all about, but it also gave me an opportunity to show people around the country what I could do and what I had done in Indianapolis, because I found myself going out in the field speaking about what we were doing in Indianapolis. With supporting documentation, where people understood that I wasn't just talking about something, but that I was actually doing something. So, after approximately two and a half years people begin contacting me about employment. I was about to accept a job in Chicago, because I would have been a director of a facility. I 01:02:00was in the final stages of the screening process and had been told that we want you for this job and put that on hold, because I received a call from the president of the African-American Museum Association. He said to me, it's my understanding that the Bimringham Civil Rights Institute is looking for an Executive Director. He said are you interested? I said yes. I had been here on two occasions. I have a friend here in Birmingham and shortly after this place opened I came to visit. About a year after it was opened, I came back a second time because my family still lived in New Orleans. So, wherever we lived we would pass through Birmingham, my family and I could visit New Orleans. So, I was familiar with the facility, I mean, overwhelmed with it when I first came. 01:03:00When I was told there was a possibility of employment here, I seized that opportunity.

HUNTLEY: What was the attraction in terms of the facility?

PIJEAUX: What this place stands for. It was directly related to my personal experiences. I grew up with this. I experienced this. It was another opportunity again to help educate, to make a difference. In an environment, when I say environment, I' m talking about the entire community that I'm comfortable with, that I'm familiar with. For the first time my family and I, since leaving New Orleans, would be in an environment where we had a friend.

Where I knew somebody.

HUNTLEY: That makes a difference.

PIJEAUX: It makes a big difference. Where I was really close to home. Where I felt at home. So, those things are some of the reasons that I came here. I was impressed with some of the board members who I interviewed with. That's the whole story. When you work for a board, there's going to be good and bad days and, in particular, when you're working for the first board that brings on a whole different set of circumstances. When I looked at the total picture, I felt good about what I saw and I still feel good about it.

HUNTLEY: What do you view is your major contribution since you've been here?

PIJEAUX: Organization. I would like to think that that's going to be my major contribution, helping to organize the place. At some point, maybe the near future, you're going to need a different person to come in here, but I think my 01:05:00major contribution has been and should be helping to organize the place, putting policies in place, getting people familiar with how to operate, how to work together. That's been a struggle, with the setting of high level of expectations, getting people to function in a very professional maimer. Knowing that they should go to the top, don't go to the second step. Earl Graves, when he was here, talked about that. You go to the top. Know with a new group of people...you know people here for the most part have not been in leadership positions.

HUNTLEY: Right.

PIJEAUX: Most of the people we find here, great people, want to do a good job, but just need somebody to help them to find their way. Somebody who's going to wrap their arms around them. Having a high level of expectations, calling a 01:06:00spade a spade, but being sensitive to the fact that all of these people are new. They want somebody to help them to work effectively. So, I see that as my role being a leader, but a friend. It's like being a father figure, I guess. I guess that's a pain of it all. So, when people have problems they're willing to come and talk with me about those problems, not feeling that I'm a guy they can't talk to and recognizing that I'm just another brother, who happens to provide leadership here, but who has not forgotten where he's come from. That's really important to me, that people recognize that.

HUNTLEY: Well, I think you've been rather successful in accomplishing that, because you have a smooth running ship and people walk through and find out how nice it is being maintained.

PIJEAUX: That is great. I feel good about that, Horace. I remember when my wife and I came to visit the Institute, before I accepted the position and she told me. What you have just said is what my wife said to me would be my biggest challenge, maintaining this facility. I really think and I guess I'm looking at this through rose colored glasses, but I think we' ve done a good job of that. I think this place is in good shape and I think when you and I and others are gone, if we've done our job, people will come here and they will find a good place.

HUNTLEY: I want to thank you for taking this hour out of your busy schedule. I know that you have many, many things that you have to do. We need to do this again, but I appreciate this morning.

PIJEAUX: Thanks, I've enjoyed it.