Jheri Hogan

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Jheri D. Hogan for the Birmingham Civil Rights lnstitute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is August 2, 1995.

Thank you Mrs. Hogan for coming and being with us today.

HOGAN: Thank you. You're welcome.

HUNTLEY: What I'd like to do is just talking about, in general terms, your background. What we are doing here is simply trying to set the record straight about people's participation in the civil rights movement and I just want to start simply by talking about your family. Can you tell me, were your mother and 00:01:00father from Birmingham?

HOGAN: No. I don't really know where my father was from. But my mom was born in Troy, Alabama.

HUNTLEY: Troy, Alabama, that's down south of Montgomery, I believe.

HOGAN: Somewhere in that neighborhood.

HUNTLEY: But you were born, here in Birmingham?

HOGAN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And you were an only child, is that right?

HOGAN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: As a child, what community did you live in? When you started school, where were you living?

HOGAN: On 17th Street between 8th and 9th Avenue North. It's kind of like downtown Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: So, how would you describe your community at that time?

HOGAN: Well, the only thing I can say about it, the average person maybe would have said it was the ghetto. But, to me it was a nice community. There were 00:02:00elderly people who saw about the children. You know, kind of like everybody raise the child. And, I was there for a couple of years. And, from there, my mom moved to Smithfield Projects.

HUNTLEY: Where did you start first grade?

HOGAN: At a Catholic school on 14th Street South and 6th Avenue South.

HUNTLEY: Were you living then in Smithfield?

HOGAN: Yes, I was living in Smithfield.

HUNTLEY: How did you get to school?

HOGAN: Ride the bus or walked.

HUNTLEY: But you did both?

HOGAN: Yes. Because I liked to walk. And, nobody bothered little children at that time, so I could walk to school.

HUNTLEY: That was quite a distance from 8th Avenue North to 6th Avenue South?

HOGAN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: That's over a mile.

HOGAN: Probably a little further than that. But, at the time, I knew my mom was 00:03:00having problems where money was concerned. So, what I would do would be to try to help. My momma bought the bus tickets, so I'd ride the bus to school in the morning and in the evening I'd just save my bus ticket and I'd walk home. And, it wasn't a problem because it wasn't dark because you got out of school at 3:00. And, like I said, nobody bothered me.

HUNTLEY: And you were not walking alone, I assume there were others.

HOGAN: Most cases I was.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

HOGAN: Because I'm a loner, sort of.

HUNTLEY: But, there were other children that walked from your community to that school weren't there?

HOGAN: No. Because the children in my community went to Lincoln school. Most of them went to public school.

HUNTLEY: Oh, I see.

HOGAN: I went a different direction.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your elementary school? Is there anything that stands out in your mind, about your school, Our Lady of Sorrows? Any 00:04:00teachers, or any subjects that you took?

HOGAN: Well, not really. Sister Mary Mercy kind of stands out because for a strange reason, she was my third grade teacher, and, then she became my fifth grade teacher, then she was my sixth grade teacher. So she kind of hung with me for three years. Miss Ford was real nice. She was a Black lay teacher. She taught the fourth grade and Miss Ray was nice. She was the second grade teacher. I just remember these people, they were real nice.

HUNTLEY: So you had both Black and White teachers?

HOGAN :Yes. I had, in elementary school, I had three. Miss Lacy taught the 00:05:00seventh grade and Miss Ray taught the second and Miss Ford taught the fourth grade.

HUNTLEY: So those were three...

HOGAN: They were called lay teachers because they were not nuns. And my other teachers were nuns.

HUNTLEY: Were the nuns Black or White?

HOGAN: All my nuns were White.

HUNTLEY: And the lay teachers were Black?

HOGAN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And, this is in Birmingham, in the 50s, I assume?

HOGAN: Yes, in the segregation time. Because my school was segregated. My church was segregated.

HUNTLEY: As far as the people were concerned, the student population?

HOGAN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: But your teachers, were both Black and White?

HOGAN: Yes. And, my priest was White.

HUNTLEY: Well, in Birmingham, Alabama in the 1950s, did that present a problem that you had White teachers at a Black school?

HOGAN: No. It didn't present a problem. That was a private school. It was not 00:06:00funded by anything other than by the people who went to school, because we had to pay to go to school.

HUNTLEY: It's a Church supported school, it's a Catholic school?

HOGAN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And, then you went on to Immaculata, to high school?

HOGAN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Immaculata?

HOGAN: Not a whole lot. It was the same. Black and White teachers.

HUNTLEY: What about activities, were you involved in any activities in high school?

HOGAN: No. Because what we really had was basketball, and, we did have a girl's team, but no, I did not.

HUNTLEY: Immaculata had a good basketball team at that time and there was a huge rivalry between Immaculata and Ullman or Immaculata and Parker or Immaculata and Wynona. Did you attend the basketball games?

HOGAN: Sometimes.

HUNTLEY: You graduated from Immaculata in '63. This is the year where the massive demonstrations took place. You had attended mass meetings, right?

HOGAN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Can you tell me, just explain to me what the typical mass meeting was like? What happened at a mass meeting?

HOGAN: I'm trying to think. That's kind of hard to do. I remembered that we would go to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church all night. And different ministers would get up and talk to us and they would tell us what was going on. And, I'm trying to think, I cannot remember if I signed up, or...

HUNTLEY: How you actively got involved?

HOGAN: I cannot really remember that far.

HUNTLEY: Whether you were a card carrying member or not. Many people, of course, were not necessarily members of the Alabama Christian Movement, but they participated.

HOGAN: I participated. My father was the card carrying person.

HUNTLEY: So that may have been your initiative to get involved, is your father, then.

HOGAN: Not really. My initiative was to get involved was because everybody that was getting involved was getting involved for a purpose. And my purpose was because I wanted to help my people, if I could. And, if it meant demonstrating and boycotting, then that's what I had to do.

HUNTLEY: Were there other friends of yours that were involved from school or 00:09:00from your community that you knew personally, that you all went to meetings together?

HOGAN: No. Whatever I did, is like now, I do it by myself.

HUNTLEY: You were somewhat of a loner. I know that you actually participated in demonstrations, so you didn't do that alone, now.

HOGAN: No, I do that alone. But, they weren't people like I knew personally or close. was in the Movement and when we did the demonstrations there were a lot of people. I don't really remember them.

HUNTLEY: You were involved in the demonstration just prior to Easter, I believe?

HOGAN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And, you were actually arrested.

HOGAN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Can you describe what the circumstances were of your arrest?

HOGAN: Let's see, I remember we were walking. We went down 5th Avenue because we got stopped where the old Trailways bus station was. And, if I'm thinking 00:10:00correctly, the policeman stopped us, I don't know if they said, disorderly conduct, I cannot remember what the charge was.

HUNTLEY: Well, let me back up just a bit. Do you remember the specific day that you were arrested? Did you go to school that morning or did you leave school?

HOGAN: I didn't go to school because, let me see, no, I didn't go to school that morning.

HUNTLEY: Did your parents, your mother know that you were going to the demonstration that morning?

HOGAN: No.

HUNTLEY: Well, what did you do? You left home going to school.

HOGAN: Well, see my mom always left home before I did because my mom had to be at work. So when I left home, nobody knew what my intentions were, but me.

HUNTLEY: Now, this time, where were you living?

HOGAN: In Smithfield Projects.

HUNTLEY: You were living in Smithfield, so you were actually going in the opposite direction than going to school that morning, when you left home?

HOGAN: I was going in the right direction of going to school, because I was going downtown, because see, I had to ride the bus.

HUNTLEY: Oh, you rode the bus, I see. And, how did you make the decision that you were going to the demonstration rather than to school?

HOGAN: I had already been to the meeting. And, whatever I had to do for, because you had, I think we had to sign up, because they had to know, because they were going to have to know who they were going to have to get out of jail.

HUNTLEY: You mean, you may have signed up the previous evening at the meeting prior to?

HOGAN: I had to sign up prior to, because you don't just go and, you know, you didn't just go, they had it organized.

HUNTLEY: Well, after you signed up that night, probably the night before the 00:12:00demonstration, then you went home, did you tell your mother about signing up for the demonstration?

HOGAN: No.

HUNTLEY: Why not?

HOGAN: Because she would have forbidden me to go.

HUNTLEY: Oh, so you simply decided on your own that it was time for you to get involved?

HOGAN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Then, you are arrested, and you are placed in the paddy wagon, when did your mother find out that you were arrested?

HOGAN: On the news.

HUNTLEY: Wait a minute, what do you mean, on the news?

HOGAN: She saw me stepping up in the paddy wagon, like my friends saw me stepping up in the paddy wagon.

HUNTLEY: What was her first reaction when she saw you, after you had been arrested?

HOGAN: She didn't say anything, just, "Okay, you did it."

HUNTLEY: How long were you in jail?

HOGAN: I think we went like, we were in there a couple of days, because I remember that, we may have been in there three days, because we may have gone in 00:13:00the middle of the week. Because, I know we went to court on a Friday and they had did all our bonds. Rev. Gardner had did our bonds and everything. But they did not let us out until like 2:00 that Easter Sunday morning.

HUNTLEY: Is that right.

HOGAN: That's when they started calling different names and letting everybody out.

HUNTLEY: That seemed to be a trend, because many people have stated that they were let out, very, very early in the morning, between 1:00 and 4:00, before sunrise. That's rather interesting. What do you remember about being in jail?

HOGAN: I remember this old lady. I remember when we first got out of the paddy wagon. Well, back up. Going to jail they just packed us in like sardines in a 00:14:00can. They rode down the railroad tracks, things that's not there now. Just kind of reel and rock because the paddy wagon was metal and everybody was just, you couldn't breathe or anything. And, when they took us out, they took us in this little room and they fingerprinted us. And this old lady always stands out in my mind, because she started shouting. She wasn't upset, she was just praising God that she had got a chance to live, to see it, to try to help do something about the way things were going. And, then they took us.

And, at first they put us in a regular jail with the regular inmates and the inmates we had, we had some and stuff on us, so the inmates that could go out, went out and brought us lunch meat and stuff back. They were real nice. They took our clothes that we had on and washed them and brought them back to us. So, 00:15:00the policemen didn't like that, so they took us and put us upstairs in some cells that didn't have any mattress or anything. And, they had this huge fan up in the ceiling that they turned on but we could turn it off because the switch was on, in our room. And they used to yell at us. But at nighttime or whenever, the old people felt like praying, if somebody started praying and singing, they wouldn't say nothing.

HUNTLEY: The police would not say anything?

HOGAN: They wouldn't say anything. They had an old lady in there who call Jesus and she could him so, you would think he was standing right there, he was on his way in the door. And, then we would sing our songs and they wouldn't say anything. The only time they said something is when we got quiet. So, most times it was something going on.

HUNTLEY: When you were arrested, were you inside the terminal?

HOGAN: No. We were outside, because we were walking down the street.

HUNTLEY: I see. Now, you were demonstrating, this was the same demonstration that Al Hibbler was a part of?

HOGAN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Did they arrest him?

HOGAN: No.

HUNTLEY: Why not?

HOGAN: Well, Bull Conner said he didn't arrest blind people.

HUNTLEY: But, when you arrived at the jail, you were surprised by something, what was that?

HOGAN: There was a Black lady in jail, and she was blind and she could get around in the jail better than we could. She knew all the little holes, everywhere everything was. And she had been arrested because of disorderly conduct and drinking.

HUNTLEY: Well, maybe Bull Conner didn't arrest her. Well, the experience of being arrested and being in jail, how did that impact upon you? What did you 00:17:00learn from that or did you learn anything from it?

HOGAN: Well, going to jail didn't really bother me because I knew I was going for a purpose. I wasn't going because I had did something wrong. I was going because I wanted to try to achieve something. And whatever I had to do, to be a part of or to help, I did.

HUNTLEY: So, this experience then, didn't deter you from being active in the Movement?

HOGAN: No.

HUNTLEY: Were you in other demonstrations afterwards?

HOGAN: Well, I was in other demonstrations and doing things. But, at that time afterwards, they decided, I wasn't one that they would put in jail. I was one that they would put water or they would start putting dogs on us.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever experience any of that, the water or the dogs?

HOGAN: The water, but not the dogs.

HUNTLEY: What was the experience with the water?

HOGAN: In the park.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about it.

HOGAN: Well, we were ready for them because we knew what they had planned to do. So we wore swimsuits, we took soap. We kind of make clowns out of them and they didn't like that. We were just ready for it, for whatever they were going to do. So that kind of deterred them a little, from doing that. We had a Sunday prayer, a Sunday in the park and they were going to turn the water on us again.

HUNTLEY: Is this at Kelly Ingram Park?

HOGAN: Yes. But the water wouldn't come on. They were praying so hard and just forgot about it.

HUNTLEY: So, you're saying the spirit was there?

HOGAN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And you were basically protected as a result of the strength of the prayers?

HOGAN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: When, you came out of jail, you said that your mother simply said, "Well, you've done it, now." How were you accepted at school as a result of your friends seeing you on TV?

HOGAN: Oh, they thought it was great. They thought I had did something great.

Because when they saw me go to jail, everybody got together and they packed lunches and candy and all this stuff and they brought it, but they would not let us have it. And, the night, well the early morning that they let me out of jail, they called me. I was like half-way down the street, outside. So they called me to come back. And everybody got frightened, including me, because I didn't know what they wanted. And, when I went back he gave me this great big bag and it was candy, cookies, everything. Everybody had got together and brought it down 00:20:00because they thought that we could have it. Well, I guess in a normal state, we could have, but by the situation being as it was, they wouldn't give it to me. But, they wouldn't do anything with it, either.

HUNTLEY: Do you know if there were other students from Immaculata that were arrested, not necessarily at the same time as you, but maybe at different times?

HOGAN: No. I don't.

HUNTLEY: But you do remember that there were a lot of young people involved?

HOGAN: Oh, yes.

HUNTLEY: But you didn't know any of them personally?

HOGAN: No. Yes, I did. Because Clark, he was one of my neighbors. His mom, I know his mom had told he and his sister not to go. And, Parker had a fence up 00:21:00around it. That's when the kids knocked the fence down and came out, a lot of the kids went to jail.

HUNTLEY: The kids were coming from all over Birmingham, various schools. Some would go to schools and leave schools. Others, like yourself, would not even go to school, but participated. What did you do after Immaculata, after you finished school? Did you stay in Birmingham or did you leave Birmingham?

HOGAN: Well, when I finished school, I went to Bobby Durr Beauty College and Charm and Modeling School.

HUNTLEY: And, you eventually developed your own business, right?

HOGAN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: So, have you lived in Birmingham the entire time?

HOGAN: No. For a while I lived in Atlanta. And, from Atlanta, went to 00:22:00Pittsburgh. From Pittsburgh, back to Atlanta. And from Atlanta to Baton Route, Louisiana. And would have stayed there but my mom got sick and I came home to see about her. And, that's when I started my own business 12 years ago.

HUNTLEY: I see. So, of course, the attraction of your mom being here in Birmingham, but as you travelled from Atlanta to Pittsburgh to Baton Rouge, did any of the experiences that you had in Birmingham have any impact upon how you actually related to other people in these various places that you had lived? Did people, after they found out you were from Birmingham, did they have questions about what Birmingham was like and if you had been involved. Any kinds of questions like that from people in Pittsburgh, Atlanta and Baton Rouge?

HOGAN: Well, people would tease me sometime and say, "It's good to be away, huh?" And I'd say, "No, because Birmingham is my home, and I like my home." And, the one thing that I know, that as long as my skin is this color, I know what's going to happen. And, like I told them, "In Birmingham, I know, they throw the rock and you see the hand. Away from home, they throw the rock and hide their hand." People are people all over the world. And, in my choice, I would still rather be here at home.

HUNTLEY: So, are you suggesting that in Birmingham a Black person is probably better off because they know what to expect and other places it may be different?

HOGAN: I say you know exactly what to expect here and I really believe that up 00:24:00north they know what to expect. It's just that the stigmatism was back in slavery time or coming out of slavery. They offered one-way tickets up north because of the north and the south thing. But, in studying, in being there, in listening to the news, they are places up north that they don't want Blacks either. There are places where they can't live safely either. And here, there are a little more places that you can live safely, they may not want you there, but if you get there, they are not as harmful.

HUNTLEY: The Civil Rights Institute was established for the purpose of gathering information and what we're doing with the oral history project, of course, is 00:25:00gathering information about the Movement itself. If someone would ask you the question that I'm about to ask you, what would be the most vivid memory that you have, of those days that you were involved with the Civil Rights Movement? Is there anything that stands out in your mind, that you remember during the period that you were involved as a young person in the demonstrations or attending the meetings?

HOGAN: The people who attended the meeting were, to me, close together. A togetherness that we need as a whole. And I wish that we could be together.

HUNTLEY: Are you suggesting that people were closer together at that point, more so than we are today?

HOGAN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Why do you think that's the case?

HOGAN: I don't really truthfully have an answer for that. I just remember something my dad use to say. He said when he was young, he knew exactly what he was going to wear because he only had one outfit and he had to wash it and keep it clean. He said, but now he's got so many things, he don't know what to wear. And he'll say, I don't have anything, but he has plenty. And that's the only reason I know, because when we didn't have anything, we were close.

Because as a child I can remember when I used to go to the country to see my grandmother, nobody was hungry and nobody was outside, other than one time a lady's house got burned up. She didn't have to worry because people always had 00:27:00something to offer or to help and they were sincere. And, now we've got so much and we've come so far, but also in coming so far, we've gotten so far apart.

HUNTLEY: Well, then, does that mean that today, if we had less or does that mean that we should not strive to get more because it places a wedge between us, or what does that mean?

HOGAN: No. I think we should strive to get more. Because I truly believe that that's what God wants us to do, is to have more. But, also, in having more, we should share and we should be closer because we have come so far.

HUNTLEY: So, really the gathering of these material things should not act as a 00:28:00wedge? We should really look at those as being blessings and actually those should draw us closer together rather than open the gap more so?

HOGAN: True, true.

HUNTLEY: I mentioned earlier about the Civil Rights Institute and what is being planned and what is happening there. How do you view the Institute itself in relationship to the Movement? Do you think that it is something that needed to happen or do you think that we really didn't need a Civil Rights Institute here in Birmingham?

HOGAN: I think we needed it. We need it bad.

HUNTLEY: Why?

HOGAN: Because of the younger generation who didn't have to come up like I did, 00:29:00they need to be able to view and truly see what has happened in their history. And, if they see what has happened in their history, hopefully it will make them want to do better about themselves.

HUNTLEY: So you think that as an educational institution, it is very important simply to keep the history alive so that the children and the generations to come will actually know from whence they've come?

HOGAN: True. So true.

HUNTLEY: Do you have children?

HOGAN: I have one daughter.

HUNTLEY: Have you talked with her about your experiences during the movement?

HOGAN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: How does she react to what you tell her?

HOGAN: Well, she understands what's happening, what has happened and what is happening.

HUNTLEY: Is there a way that you would think we should be able to pass this information on down through the generations, in addition to utilizing the Civil Rights Institute? Can we do some of that at home, as well?

HOGAN: Yes. If we talk to our children and if we have Black history books, because they do have things that tell us about it. And, we as Blacks, have always stood for something, have done things, from the time there's been a world up until now.

HUNTLEY: And you think that this obviously is a key ingredient in that whole sojourn of Black people throughout this country? Are you suggesting that this period of history, that you were instrumental in, plays a key role in the total 00:31:00development of the history of Birmingham and of the nation?

HOGAN: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to share with us today, in relationship to the Movement that we may have not touched upon?

HOGAN: I don't think so.

HUNTLEY: Thank you very much for coming out, Ms. Hogan. We appreciate your time and you've been quite a help to us.

HUNTLEY: Thank you.