Emily Thomas Ellis

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Emily Thomas Ellis for the Birmingham Civil Rights lnstitute's Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College. This July 12, 1995. Welcome, Mrs. Ellis.

ELLIS: Thank you.

HUNTLEY: Thank you for coming out and sitting with us today to talk to us about your experiences in the Civil Rights Movement. I want to start just by asking some general kinds of questions about your background. Tell me a little about your parents. Were your parents from Birmingham?

ELLIS: Yes. Both were from Birmingham. My mother was a housewife and my father was a steel worker at Fairfield Steel in Fairfield.

HUNTLEY: I see. Tell me a little about their education. How much schooling did they have?

ELLIS: My mother finished high school and my father was a high school drop out, but he still worked at U. S. Steel to support the family.

HUNTLEY: Did she go to Parker?

ELLIS: Yes she did. During the time that she went it was Industrial High School and I think it was in 1942 or something like that when she finished Parker.

HUNTLEY: Did he also go to Parker?

ELLIS: No. He didn't get any further than elementary school.

HUNTLEY: I see. And, he was a steel worker at U. S. Steel?

ELLIS: Yes. He retired from U. S. Steel.

HUNTLEY: And your mother was a housewife, she worked at home?

ELLIS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have? ELLIS: I have three sisters and two brothers.

HUNTLEY: Where do you fit into that group?

ELLIS: I'm the second.

HUNTLEY: You're the second oldest?

ELLIS: I'm the second oldest.

HUNTLEY: Where did you start first grade?

ELLIS: I started first grade in Rising, at Princeton Elementary school. The principal was Mr. Wesley, Claude A. Wesley during the time that I was there.

HUNTLEY: So did you go at Princeton from first through sixth grade?

ELLIS: Yes. During that time Princeton stopped at the fifth grade. So after the fifth grade I went to Hill school. And Mr. Parnell C. Jones was the principal there.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Hill school?

ELLIS: The teachers were nice. Very strict, but concerned and dedicated.

HUNTLEY: Were you living in Rising at the time?

ELLIS: Yes. I was living in Rising during that time.

HUNTLEY: So Rising is probably three or four miles from Hill. How did you get 00:03:00from Rising to Hill?

ELLIS: We used to walk or either we would commute, car pool.

HUNTLEY: You mean you walked that distance?

ELLIS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Kids today don't want to walk to the grocery store.

ELLIS: Well, we did. We did or either we car pooled.

HUNTLEY: And you went from Hill to Parker?

ELLIS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And you graduated from Parker High school?

ELLIS: Yes. In January, 1965.

HUNTLEY: Were you active in any of the activities at Parker?

ELLIS: During that time I was very shy. I wasn't active. I really wasn't a very good student until the 10th grade. I was shy. And when I got into the 10th grade I met Loretta Allen and she inspired me to be myself and have confidence in 00:04:00myself. And still today, she's my mentor. I still call her now.

HUNTLEY: What was her name?

ELLIS: Loretta Allen. She is at the board now.

HUNTLEY: So that's your mentor?

ELLIS: Yes. She'll always be my mentor.

HUNTLEY: Great. Parker is obviously known worldwide and I know that you are very proud of Parker. How would you characterize Parker? What was it like to be a student at Parker High in the 1960s?

ELLIS: Well, during that time Parker High school was "the school". I was proud to be a student there. We didn't have fights there or gangs or anything like that.

Mostly everybody was just friends and things like that. During school hours we 00:05:00had auditorium periods and we had very nice programs and the principal, of course, "Big Red." Everybody that knew him, R. C. Johnson as "Big Red," he was a very strict principal.

HUNTLEY: Was "Big Red" a nickname that the students gave him?

ELLIS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: So you didn't call him that in front of his face?

ELLIS: Oh, no. You didn't call him that. During that time, even though Parker High school was so crowded, he knew every student at Parker High school.

HUNTLEY: By name?

ELLIS: By name. Yes. He could call you by name.

HUNTLEY: So basically you knew that you were known?

ELLIS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: So that, in fact, was a deterrent against getting into any trouble or anything?

ELLIS: Yes. And, then, not only that, during that time the teachers really kept 00:06:00you in line. They were really a tremendous role model.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school?

ELLIS: After high school I went into Daniel Payne College for two years. And I went there, I dropped out, I got married, I had a child and I worked for Head Start for 23 years. And, after leaving Head Start after 23 years, I got on with the board in August, 1992.

HUNTLEY: And that was as a result of your completing a degree?

ELLIS: Yes, at Miles College in May, 1992.

HUNTLEY: And now what kind of work are you doing?

ELLIS: Presently, I am a second grade teacher at Price Elementary school.

HUNTLEY: So you like to deal with the younger ones?

ELLIS: I love it.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

ELLIS: Yes. I like it very much.

HUNTLEY: Great. During your high school days, this was during sort of the height of the Movement, between '61 and '65.

ELLIS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about those days, let's say prior to the big demonstrations of '63? Do you remember the Freedom Riders coming to Birmingham?

ELLIS: Oh, yes. I remember them very well. One morning when I got to school I was getting off the bus and I think the gates were locked and I was saying "Why are all the gates locked?" And there were all of these men standing outside and they were saying "Don't try to go inside the gate." And he told us, he said, "Just march in single file and we're going to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church."

HUNTLEY: This is actually in '63 then when the demonstrations were going on?

ELLIS: Yes, it was.

HUNTLEY: So you went to school?

ELLIS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And that morning, I assume you walked to school?

ELLIS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: You arrived there and you found that the gates were locked? You could not get

into the classroom?

ELLIS: Well, what I think had happened, they had been told it was going to be something like, turning out a mass--

HUNTLEY: So the gates were locked to keep the children inside?

ELLIS: Yes. The ones who were already in there, they had to stay in. I don't know who told them but I think they were warned that we were going to walk out.

HUNTLEY: So you were one of those students that never made it in?

ELLIS: No. I didn't.

HUNTLEY: Well, how many students were outside the gates?

ELLIS: Over five or six hundred. You couldn't hardly see the sidewalk.

HUNTLEY: So what happened?

ELLIS: There were about four or five men outside and they told us don't go inside.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember who those men were?

ELLIS: If I'm not mistaken, maybe Hosea Williams. I saw Hosea Williams and during that time, I think Andrew Young and Tommy Wren, I think. I'm not sure it's been so long.

HUNTLEY: Were they talking to the students?

ELLIS: Yes. They said "marching in single file and y'all follow us. We're going down to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church."

HUNTLEY: So you were marching in single file from Parker High school to Sixteenth Street?

ELLIS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Now Parker is on what?

ELLIS: Eighth Avenue, North.

HUNTLEY: Eighth Avenue and what street is that cross street?

.ELLIS: Third Street.

HUNTLEY: On Third Street?

ELLIS: Yes. Back then that address was 300 Eighth Avenue North.

HUNTLEY: So you were marching from Third Street to Sixteenth Street?

ELLIS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And you had 500 children? That was a pretty big group?

ELLIS: Yes, it was. And we did stop for the traffic lights and it took us a long time to get there, but we still arrived there safely without anything happening.

HUNTLEY: And, then, what happened once you arrived at Sixteenth Street?

ELLIS: I was so shocked because I had never seen Dr. Martin Luther King before and he was in the pulpit and he introduced himself. He told us why we were there. He told us that they were going to use us for the march. He said that we were tired of being pushed around. Tired of riding at the back of the bus. Tired of not being able to eat at the lunch counters. Tired of going in the restroom and there is a "white" sign and a "colored" sign. Tired of drinking out of the water fountain that says "colored only" and, then, most of the time it was out of order. So that meant that we didn't have anywhere to get any water when we were in town.

- -

HUNTLEY: So how was he received then. You're estimating 500 students coming from 00:11:00Parker. Were there students from other schools as well?

ELLIS: I really don't know. I can only just speak for the ones from Parker, but I know it was just packed.

HUNTLEY: The church was packed?

ELLIS: Yes. And they taught us freedom songs, "I ain't going to let nobody turn me around." "I woke up this morning with my mind set on freedom." And we learned those songs.

HUNTLEY: This was, of course, during the day, but did you attend the mass meetings on a regular basis?

ELLIS: Yes, I did.

HUNTLEY: Did you do that prior to this particular time or did you start attending them after?

ELLIS: Well, I had attended several ones before at New Pilgrim Baptist Church.

HUNTLEY: What were the mass meetings like? How would you describe a mass meeting?

ELLIS: Very spiritual and rewarding.

HUNTLEY: How was it rewarding?

ELLIS: They had the gospel choir. They sang freedom songs. It was just so moving and spiritual and it really hit you and put that drive in you that you wanted more. That you want to be more. That you weren't going to let anybody stop you from reaching your goal. Those spiritual and those gospel songs and prayer was just so rewarding.

HUNTLEY: The mass meetings that you attended were they similar to what happened 00:13:00that day that you left Parker and came to Sixteenth Street?

ELLIS: Yes. Very much the same. They were just introducing us to different people and, then, telling us why we were going to do this.

HUNTLEY: Did you actually march that particular day?

ELLIS: No. I didn't march. I think it was about two days later before I marched. As a matter of fact, I think I marched three days before I was arrested. The first day when I marched, my hair was so pretty. I had a head full of pretty curls and we marched. And, the policemen put the dogs on us. They had the hose pipe on us and the water was so forceful from the hose pipe until it just slit my arm open. I mean it just laid open.

HUNTLEY: Were you taken to the hospital?

ELLIS: No. I really didn't make a big deal out of it, but my arm was badly bruised.

HUNTLEY: Was it bruised or was it actually open?

ELLIS: It was open and bleeding, yes. And, so I did not get arrested that day.

HUNTLEY: Were you doing this with the approval of your parents?

ELLIS: No. She thought I was in school, my mother. My parents thought that I was in school. They didn't ever know what I was doing.

HUNTLEY: But, when you came home with your arm open?

ELLIS: Yes. I really didn't explain to her. As a matter of fact, I really didn't let her see. But, later on, after a couple of days it was kind of stiff and I was telling her. And she said, "What happened?" And I don't know what I told her.

HUNTLEY: But you didn't tell her that you were in the march?

ELLIS: It wasn't related to the marching at all, no. Because she wouldn't -- HUNTLEY: So was that the first day of the march that you were attacked?

ELLIS: No. I didn't get attacked that bad the first day. I think it was mostly like the second or the third day.

HUNTLEY: Okay. Then were you leaving home every morning?

ELLIS: Like I was going to school.

HUNTLEY: But you would go to Sixteenth Street?

ELLIS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Every morning?

ELLIS: Every morning.

HUNTLEY: Were there other students with you that were doing the same thing? Would you go to school and, then, leave there and go to Sixteenth Street, or would you go directly from home to Sixteenth Street?

ELLIS: No. We would meet up at school. And, then, one day when we got to school we walked out.

HUNTLEY: Okay. Tell me about that. You were in, how did you get out?

ELLIS: Well, of course, the gates were opened and so we decided that we would just go into school that morning. And we went in and stayed about a half hour. 00:16:00After we had been in there somebody said, "Hey, it's time to go." So I don't know if they were already outside waiting for us or what. And they said, "Hey, it's time to go." And so when "they" said it was time to go, all the students just stood up, they slammed their books down and they walked out.

HUNTLEY: All of the students?

ELLIS: In that class and some more classes, too. And, then it was somebody again waiting on us outside and they took us back down to Sixteenth Street church.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about the day that you were arrested. How did the day start?

ELLIS: Well, I left home like I was going to school and my friends and I, well, we went to the church. We were singing songs and they were preaching to us non­ violence. You aren't supposed to be violent. Don't hit back. That was all they 00:17:00ever said. That this is a non-violent movement. And, so they lined us up and we started to march and we go down to Newberry's and we walked in. There were policemen already in the street. And, so when we walked in, there were so many of us, we sat down to the counter and they refused to serve us and they asked us to get up. And we would not get up. And they started to pulling us up from the seats. And as they pulled us up from the seats, we just got on our knees and we started praying.

HUNTLEY: Before you left, you walked from the school to the church?

ELLIS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And, then at the church, what happened?

ELLIS: Okay. When we got to the church they was telling us where we were supposed to go for that day, and what to do. They said, "We're going down to Newberry's and we're going to be served at that counter or we're going to jail."

HUNTLEY: Was that the entire church or were there designated places for different people to go?

ELLIS: Well, I think during this particular day, if I'm not mistaken, I think everybody went to Newberry's. Yes. I think we were all designated that day for Newberry's.

HUNTLEY: And, then, you went in, you sat at the counter?

ELLIS: Yes. And there were Whites sitting there and when we sat down they jumped up, like that. And, then, when we told them that we wanted something to eat, they refused to serve us. Then, they told us to move and the policemen started to pull on us. And, as they pulled on to me I just went down on my knees. And I did my hands like this, I started praying. And, as I said, there were so many of us and they would put us in paddy wagons and everything. And it was so many of 00:19:00us until I was able to get on a big bus. I don't remember what kind of bus it was, but I went to jail on the bus.

HUNTLEY: Did they force you to get off your knees or did they have to carry out you to the paddy wagon?

ELLIS: They would try to carry us.

HUNTLEY: Okay. So they carried you?

ELLIS: Pulling and carried.

HUNTLEY: And you were then put on a bus and taken where?

ELLIS: The Birmingham jail was so full that we went to the fairgrounds.

HUNTLEY: And how long were you there?

ELLIS: I think for two days.

HUNTLEY: What was it like, in jail? What was the experience like?

ELLIS: Well, we didn't really consider ourselves as being jailed. What we considered as being in jail was being alive all these years and we couldn't eat here, couldn't sit there. So I think to us it wasn't as bad.

HUNTLEY: What was the food like?

ELLIS: The food was nice, sandwiches, catered food and like that. But, we didn't eat. We would sing and pray all night. And we didn't sleep.

HUNTLEY: Why? What were you doing?

ELLIS: We didn't want to sleep.

HUNTLEY: You say you were singing and praying?

ELLIS: All night. We wanted to get our point over that we were tired. Tired of being without and tired of not being able to ride the bus and tired of drinking out of a water fountain that said "colored."

HUNTLEY: What did you do for those two days? Did you do anything other than just sing and pray? You said you didn't eat. Would you do any work? Did they work you?

ELLIS: We didn't do anything. It was so crowded.

HUNTLEY: How many people were you with?

ELLIS: Well, it was just so crowded. I don't know, maybe about four or five hundred.

HUNTLEY: Did you have beds?

ELLIS: Yes. They had some of these little cots and things, but we didn't sleep. We just stood and we got on our knees and we prayed a lot.

HUNTLEY: So you, in effect, basically kept them very busy?

ELLIS: Yes. That was our reason that we weren't going to sleep, we were going to keep them busy.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your release from jail, from the fairgrounds?

ELLIS: Well, I remember when they bailed us out. It was an experience not ever going before a judge before, but it wasn't that traumatic. The most traumatic part was being in bondage all those years.

HUNTLEY: What did your mother have to say? When did your mother first find out 00:22:00that you were in jail?·

ELLIS: When I called her.

HUNTLEY: And what was her reaction?

ELLIS: She had a fit. She said, "I thought you were in school." And I said, "I hadn't been at school in about a week." And I told her, I said, "But not to worry, they are going to get us out." And I think she called, I don't know who she called. I think she called somebody and they told her that they were going to bail everybody out. And so she didn't have that to do. But, when I was released and I went home and she told me, she said that, "I thought you were in school." I said, "Well, mother, I hadn't been in school in about a week. I'm marching for something that I believe in." She didn't give me any static. She just told me that she would support me in my beliefs. I think by them, by her being a housewife and she wanted more for her kids anyway, and you just really 00:23:00have to stand strong and just really do what you believe in.

HUNTLEY: What did your father say about your participation?

ELLIS: He had a fit. He had a fit. He just took his hand, when I got home and he said, "And you haven't been to school in a week." And, I said, "Well, let me explain to you." And I went on to explain to him and he kind of calmed down. And later on he told me that he understood and he asked me, "Now how is this going effect you in school?" I said, "I don't right now, and I'm not really concerned about school right now."

HUNTLEY: Were you suspended from school?

ELLIS: Yes, I was.

HUNTLEY: For how long?

ELLIS: Well, I think about 3 or 4 days.

HUNTLEY: Did your parents have to take you back to school?

ELLIS: Yes, they had to take me back. But, if I'm not mistaken, I think that there was an order handed down that everybody that had been suspended from 00:24:00school had to go back. The board had to let them back.

HUNTLEY: So how were you received when you went back to school by your teachers?

ELLIS: Fine.

HUNTLEY: Did they encourage you at all to get involved or did they suggest that you should not get involved? What was their posture at the time?

ELLIS: Well, I'm trying to think. My homeroom teacher didn't really say very much, but they were concerned. And, I guess back then you just really had to not get so involved yourself or give anybody advice. But, we were young and we just wanted to do it.

HUNTLEY: After you were released from jail, the first time, did you demonstrate again?

ELLIS: I sure did. I went back again.

HUNTLEY: Did you leave school again?

ELLIS: Yes, I did.

HUNTLEY: Did your parents know that you had left school?

ELLIS: No.

HUNTLEY: But you were not arrested a second time?

ELLIS: No, I wasn't. And back during that time they used to call your home when you were out, but I think during this time they had so many out doing the marching.

HUNTLEY: So no one ever called your home?

ELLIS: No. And, then, too they might have called, but no one was there during that time.

HUNTLEY: Then after this first encounter and, then, you demonstrated again, you were not arrested, but were you attacked? Were you attacked by the dogs?

ELLIS: Still with the water and the dogs and the clubs.

HUNTLEY: Were you personally physically attacked?

ELLIS: Hit. I mean they would hit you.

HUNTLEY: Who are "they" now?

ELLIS: The policemen. They would tell you to move and if you didn't move, they would hit you for you to move. I'm not going to say it was a violent blow, hard enough to send me to the hospital, but you could feel it.

HUNTLEY: Where were you hit?

ELLIS: Hit on the arms and the legs, something like that.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever encounter just average White citizens that attacked anything during the demonstrations or was it just always police and firemen?

ELLIS: It was always policemen and the firemen that really did everything to us. Well, to me.

HUNTLEY: What about the dogs? What was your reaction when the dogs were turned loose?

ELLIS: I had said I was sad, because we're supposed to be human beings and for them to sic dogs onto human beings, I was very upset about that. Knowing that we 00:27:00meant so little to them as human beings to put animals on us.

HUNTLEY: Were there other members of your family involved?

ELLIS: No. I was the only one.

HUNTLEY: So your parents really were not involved? Did they attend the mass meetings? ELLIS: No. They didn't attend the meetings and they weren't involved.

HUNTLEY: So you're the only one out of your family that was actively involved?

ELLIS: Yes, I was.

HUNTLEY: What were the reactions of your brothers and sisters?

ELLIS: They were shocked because they thought I was in school. And, then I was always the quiet one. And they said, "I know she hasn't been cutting school like that." But I was. And they were very shocked. They were disturbed.

HUNTLEY: They were disturbed with it?

ELLIS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What did they say to you?

ELLIS: Well, they were younger and they hadn't the experience that I had going 00:28:00to Woolworth or going to Newberry's or riding the bus. I got on bus one day, there were no seats and there were plenty seats up to the front. And, I moved the sign where it said "White", up some so I could have a seat and the bus driver stopped the bus.

HUNTLEY: And what did he do?

ELLIS: And he told me that I had to go to the back and I said, "Well, there are no seats in the back." And he said, "But you'll have to stand up." And another time I rode the bus I sat down and this lady jumped up and she rung the bell and she got off.

HUNTLEY: Was this a White woman?

ELLIS: Yes. She got off. And usually when we got on the bus and there were seats 00:29:00and if we attempted to sit down, they would call the police on us. That was before the marching had started.

HUNTLEY: After the boards were removed and you rode the bus, did you go to the rear of the bus?

ELLIS: Yes, I did. But it wasn't a good atmosphere nine times out of ten. They would turn like this or do something like they'd look out the window. Or either they would hold their head down.

HUNTLEY: So you would sit in the front then with White people?

ELLIS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Rather than going to the back of the bus?

ELLIS: Yes. I'm not going to sit in the back any more. I was determined.

HUNTLEY: So are there other experiences that reminded you and help you to determine that there was a need for a change that you may have encountered while 00:30:00either riding the bus or downtown?

ELLIS: Yes. While being downtown, even while shopping, even if you were the first one in line, the salesperson was going to wait on that White person first. And when I was small I didn't understand that. And as I got older, I kept going to town and going to town and I said, "Well, I was first." And they looked at you like you didn't say anything. Back then if you were White, you were right and you were always first.

HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of at the time?

ELLIS: During that time I was a member of the Rising Star Baptist Church in Rising.

HUNTLEY: Was your church actively involved? Was your minister and other members of your church involved in the Movement?

ELLIS: No. My minister wasn't really actively involved. As a matter of fact I think he really was kind of hesitant about it. He was an older minister and I 00:31:00really think he was really hesitant about coming involved because of maybe what might would have happened to him or the church or something like that.

HUNTLEY: Were there close friends of yours that were involved with you?

ELLIS: Yes. I have several friends. I have one friend that's deceased now. We marched all together and we went to jail together. Her name was Loretta Demis. And I remember Josephine, I'm trying to remember her last name. She integrated West End High School. It was Josephine Power, she's dead now also.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever consider being one of the first Black students to go into one of the white high schools?

ELLIS: No. I didn't ever think about that because to me, that would have been 00:32:00more pressure because my girlfriend, the one that went, she was a straight A student at Parker High school and when she went to West End High school, she made all Os. And she was very smart.

HUNTLEY: Did she graduate from West End?

ELLIS: Yes she did. But she wasn't an honor student anymore, but she still finished.

HUNTLEY: What did she do afterwards?

ELLIS: Well, she left here and went to Chicago. She married and, then, she went to Chicago.

HUNTLEY: Obviously those were turbulent times. Now you, at that time, were living in Roosevelt City, is that right?

ELLIS: Yes. Well, when I first started marching I was living in Rising and, then, we moved to Roosevelt City.

HUNTLEY: And from Roosevelt City you, of course, had to take the bus to school?

ELLIS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about any experiences you may have had?

ELLIS: Well, Roosevelt City wasn't that bad because it was predominantly all Black community and you didn't see too many Whites in that area. Maybe the few in that community had cars or whatever, but usually when I rode the Roosevelt City bus, I didn't see too many Whites, but we would always go to the front.

HUNTLEY: So you rode the public bus from Roosevelt to Parker?

ELLIS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Did you have to transfer? Did you go through downtown?

ELLIS: I would transfer downtown, yes.

HUNTLEY: This particular time, in 1965, 64, of course, there are a number of things that are taking place. All this started in '63. The bombing of Sixteenth 00:34:00Street Baptist Church, do you remember that?

ELLIS: Yes, I heard that bombing. During that time I think I was on Fountain Heights and we were getting ready to go to church. I was getting ready to go to New Pilgrim Church and we heard this loud noise and like our whole community was just shook. And I said, "I wonder what is it?" And, so, about 15 minutes later we saw something on the screen. "Sixteenth Street Baptist Church was bombed." And, so we got in our cars and we could only go so far. It was the most horrible sight I had ever seen, the destruction of the church and we stayed there until they brought the bodies out of those four little girls. It was horrible.

HUNTLEY: That was an experience that I'm sure you'll never forget.

ELLIS: Yes, I'll never forget that. By them being so young and so innocent and 00:35:00trying to serve the Lord and you couldn't even go to church and be at peace.

HUNTLEY: Did you know any of the children that were in the church?

ELLIS: Well, I knew the fathers. I knew Claude Wesley was the principal of the school that I attended and Mr. Martin was a principal of a school that I had attended, and Mr. Martin never got over his child's death. He didn't live too much longer after that.

HUNTLEY: What was the atmosphere like at the time?

ELLIS: Everybody was mad. They just wanted to go out and just do anything.

Whatever it took to get revenge. They were mad. As a matter of fact, I think I remember hearing some people say there was a lot of violence that went on that 00:36:00night after the bombing.

HUNTLEY: After the bombing, actually prior to the bombing there was the March on Washington and, then, there was the bombing in September. The March on Washington in August, the bombing in September. In 1964 we had the passing of the Civil Rights Bill and many said it resulted from what took place in Birmingham.

ELLIS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And this was a bill based upon public accommodations. Did you remember anything changing during that time?

ELLIS: During that time I saw more Blacks hired at the banks. I saw more Blacks hired in stores. Usually when you went in the stores, the only way you would see 00:37:00anyone Black, they would be pushing a mop or either behind a soda fountain, you know, serving food or something like that. But as I went in the stores, I saw Black cashiers. At the bank I saw Blacks. I saw quite a bit of changes made, but what really disturbed me was when our people got these positions, how they changed so.

HUNTLEY: How do you mean they changed?

ELLIS: Well, I won't say all of them. They weren't courteous. They were very short with you, very impatient.

HUNTLEY: Did you know any of the people that actually got positions in those stores downtown and, if so, were they active members in the Movement?

ELLIS: As a matter of fact, I'm thinking all the ones that I really saw, I don\tllthirtiqey benefitted from it, but they didn't march, no. They hadn't been active at all.

HUNTLEY: So those who were not active, seemingly benefitted?

ELLIS: Yes, more than we did.

HUNTLEY: If you had the opportunity, if you had the where with all to be able to change anything that you went through at that time, what would you change?

ELLIS: What would I change?

HUNTLEY: Yes.

ELLIS: That was in the 60s?

HUNTLEY: Yes. The way that the Movement was administered?

ELLIS: Well, I think it was very well planned, very organized. As far as structure wise, I wouldn't change anything because I think that non-violence was the best way. And prayer. The marching and the praying I think that was the best 00:39:00way because you can be loud and ignorant, that will not get anybody's attention when you really want something. But if you do it in a way and you do it in the right way, I think you'll get what you want. And just be firm about it and march and keep praying.

HUNTLEY: If you were a parent in 1963 would you have allowed your child or children to participate?

ELLIS: I was so protective of my daughter when she was born in 1967 I would probably say no. You know why? Because as a parent you always want to protect your child and the least little thing that would probably happen you would get so upset. So, what I went through, no, I wouldn't want my child to go through 00:40:00it, no. I'm glad I was there to help pave the way. My daughter, I think reaped from some of the benefits because she went to Samford. And, that was in the 80s and during the 80s she told me she said that it wasn't like she thought it was going to be. She thought it was going to be real prejudice and all of that and she said it wasn't that bad. So I'm thinking by marching, I did help her some and others also.

HUNTLEY: Have you made the attempt to pass this information on about your experiences in the demonstrations to your daughter?

ELLIS: Yes. We used to sit down and talk about it and she said, "Well, mommy they hit you with the billy club and they put you in jail and your arm was 00:41:00open?" I said, "Yes, and I'll never forget it." And she says, "Oh, I couldn't have gone through all that. That's so terrible." She would say it was so hard to believe that Birmingham was like that. She would say it was hard to believe Birmingham was like that considering the way that we are now, we could go anywhere. She said, "Oh, I wouldn't have ever thought it."

HUNTLEY: Finally, we've talked about any number of topics, a number of subjects, is there anything else you would like to add that we may not have talked about as extensively as you would like? If so, this is your opportunity.

ELLIS: No. I think the only thing I would add is that A. G. Gaston was very fundamental during this time. He was the man who had the money. And, of course, he was the one who would always bail everyone out of jail and I think we should 00:42:00always recognize him in the Civil Rights Movement. And, that's about it. I think basically all of this will never leave me. I will always remember all of these experiences and, then, when you have gone through all of this, it really makes you a much better person. It makes you appreciate what you have now and what you didn't have.

HUNTLEY: Is there any way to pass that on to the next generation. That appreciative feeling that you have about how you have succeeded and had an impact upon changing the system for the better?

ELLIS: Yes. I think what I would say to anybody and as I talk about it sometime I always tell them that violence is not the way. Prayer and if we start marching 00:43:00again I think that that would help too. But I also think if we would stick together as a race and stop trying to down the other person, I think we would do much better.

HUNTLEY: Mrs. Ellis, I want to thank you for coming today and we certainly do appreciate it.

ELLIS: I really enjoyed it.

HUNTLEY: Thank you very much.

ELLIS: Thank you.