Cleopatra Goree Interviewed on April 29, 1998

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Cleopatra Goree for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I'm Dr. Horace Huntley. We're presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is April 29, 1998. Mrs. Goree, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule. I know as a lady of leisure you have plenty of other things to do then come and sit and talk with me. I just want to start by asking you a general question about your family. Your mother and father, were they originally from Birmingham?

GOREE: No, my mother and father were both from South Alabama, the Black Belt area.

HUNTLEY: What county?

GOREE: My mother was from Perry County. My father was from Bullock County.

HUNTLEY: Did they meet here or did they meet there and then come here?

GOREE: They met here.

HUNTLEY: Ok, so you were born here in Birmingham?

GOREE: I was born in Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: Oh, a Birmingham girl.

GOREE: All the way.

HUNTLEY: All the way, ok. What community did you grow up in?

GOREE: I grew up in East Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: East Birmingham, ok. Your parents what were their education levels? How much schooling?

GOREE: Unfortunately, I didn't live with my father that long, but his education was very limited for the time that I did know him. He worked for the L & N Railroad Company. My mother had perhaps, maybe a fourth-grade education.

HUNTLEY: In East Birmingham, what community was it in East Birmingham that you grew up?

GOREE: Well, East Birmingham included kind of the Northeast, not quite Northeast but going Northeast in the city limits. It's an industrial area between 1st Avenue North and Vanderbilt Road.

HUNTLEY: Oh, ok.

GOREE: We were a Black community stuck within an industrial area. [inaudible], pipe shops, Stockham Valve Fitting Company, and so on.

HUNTLEY: Oh, yeah, I know that.

GOREE: Then you had a Black community.

HUNTLEY: So, your father worked for the railroad. Did your mother work outside the home?

GOREE: My mother worked for White people; you call it domestic work.

HUNTLEY: In that area? Did she work in that area?

GOREE: No, you go into Inglenook then, you're going up towards Tarrant City.

HUNTLEY: Right.

GOREE: Inglenook and Tarrant City, going in that direction and the Whites that lived in that area were probably employed at the L & N Railroad.

HUNTLEY: What school did you start first grade?

GOREE: I started first grade at Shields Elementary School but it didn't go any further than the third grade. Then we had an option of going to Kingston School or Thomas School. I choose to have gone to Thomas School. So, my elementary education would be third grade at Shields and then from fourth grade to eighth grade Thomas.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Shields?

GOREE: Typical classrooms that you read about now. Two rooms, pot belly stove, sink in the back, two teachers on each side of the double tented house, so to speak.

HUNTLEY: How far did you live from Shields? In walking distance?

GOREE: Walking distance.

HUNTLEY: How would you describe your neighborhood at that time?

GOREE: The neighborhood would be described as one big family. Typical of all of the neighborhoods before. You kind of look at during the Depression Era. 00:05:00Everything is by, transportation is by trolley, very few cars. One telephone service, maybe two at the most serving a five or six block area. Everybody went to that particular home to use the telephone.

HUNTLEY: Right.

GOREE: Church, school and home were all located within walking distance of the street.

HUNTLEY: So, it was a pretty compact community, then?

GOREE: Compact, very compact.

HUNTLEY: What about the occupations of the people that lived in the community? What was the range of occupations?

GOREE: Most of the range of the occupations were, ranges were industrial work.

HUNTLEY: Caused you lived right there in the industrial area, so most people would be working class people.

GOREE: Industrial, plant workers for the men. The ladies didn't go into the plants until WWII.

HUNTLEY: Right.

GOREE: Few professional people in between.

HUNTLEY: When you left Shields and went to Thomas, did you still walk to school?

GOREE: Walked to school. Everybody walked to school, either from that area, between 10th Avenue North and Vanderbilt you either walked to Thomas School or you walked to Hudson School in Collegeville. So, everybody was walking to school.

HUNTLEY: How was Thomas different from Shields?

GOREE: Well, Shields being so small, remember it's just first thru third grade so it's no comparison.

HUNTLEY: Right.

GOREE: We were going to the big school then.

HUNTLEY: What was the transition like going from a smaller school to the big school, as you say?

GOREE: It was quite an experience. First of all, you got a long walk and then you are walking down a railroad track. All my fear was a trestle that you had to cross.

HUNTLEY: You had to cross a trestle every day?

GOREE: You had to cross the trestle to get across and I was always frightened.

HUNTLEY: Now, on that trestle could you actually see the water?

GOREE: You could see the water.

HUNTLEY: I remember those, yeah.

GOREE: You've got to be there at a certain time regardless of the weather. Then when you got to Thomas School you had to stand in line until the bell rang. Everybody lined up to go in school when the bell rang. So, you don't have anyone entering the school until you are going into class. Then you line up. Regardless of the weather, that's the interesting thing. You look back now, a cold rain...

HUNTLEY: It didn't matter, you had to line up.

GOREE: You lined up then you would go into the school.

HUNTLEY: I remember when I was in school we would line up and when the bell rang is when you would go into the school and not before. Well, after Thomas School then where did you go to school?

GOREE: I went to Ullman High School.

HUNTLEY: Went to Ullman, ok. Now Ullman is quite a distance. You couldn't walk to Ullman.

GOREE: Couldn't walk to Ullman. They had a special that ran from maybe Tarrant City to near Parker High School. We called it the special. All kids going to Ullman got off downtown so you would walk from downtown to Southside.

HUNTLEY: That's still a pretty good distance now. Did you walk, what from 14th Street?

GOREE: We walked from downtown to where Ullman is located today.

HUNTLEY: Where abouts downtown?

GOREE: 19th Street.

HUNTLEY: 19th Street?

GOREE: 19th Street.

HUNTLEY: That's the heart of downtown.

GOREE: Heart of downtown.

HUNTLEY: And you walked that every day? I thought the special would take you...

GOREE: No.

HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about that special. I've heard so many people talk about it. What was the special like?

GOREE: It was, by time I came along it was just a straight streetcar especially for the children.

HUNTLEY: Only school children...

GOREE: Only school children rode it.

HUNTLEY: This was an actual streetcar?

GOREE: An actual streetcar.

HUNTLEY: Before the buses?

GOREE: Before the buses, that's right. Actually, a trolley car.

HUNTLEY: Ok.

GOREE: I understand earlier before I was born that they had a trailer that they would hook up to another trolley, I believe, I'm not sure. My aunts talked about it. Ours was actually a trolley especially for the children.

HUNTLEY: So, you got to sit in front of the trolley or anywhere?

GOREE: You sat where you could or stood up the rest of the way. (Laughing) 00:10:00You're packed in there like sardines.

HUNTLEY: Yeah, yeah. Now, what was that transition like from Thomas School to Ullman?

GOREE: It wasn't too hard. We were used to the walk. Only thing you looked forward to you met a cross section of children. You started meeting more from...

HUNTLEY: From different communities?

GOREE: Yeah. Especially in my area, you're looking at you're going toward what we call Hudson City, Collegeville. You're picking up those kids from Kingston. And sometime Kingston children would ride the special coming out 1st Avenue coming from the Avondale community. You're coming from towards Tarrant City direction back down to East Birmingham, then you got a lot of ghettos you pick up in between, once you left the industrial area going down toward the terminal 00:11:00station in that area, you had massive Black communities there.

HUNTLEY: That's right. Birmingham at that time of course was strictly segregated.

GOREE: Sure.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever encounter any difficulties that you remember as a child growing up in Birmingham, a Black child growing up in Birmingham? Many cases we may have encountered something on the streetcars or downtown. Do you ever remember personally encountering any situations?

GOREE: No, I only encountered, of course I didn't encounter it because I wouldn't go in that direction. But going to Thomas School, if you didn't go down the tracks you could walk around in another direction going toward Grayson Lumber Company, a paved street that lead to 1st Avenue North. But if you went in that direction you had to go through what we call Cracker Town. That was company 00:12:00houses occupied by White workers, the people that worked at the cotton mills there. They lived in these small houses and the company furnished them homes. So, they were White cotton mill workers. We had to go through their community if you didn't take the track and went around the other way. So, it was always a rock battle between the children who went through Cracker Town and going back to East Birmingham. Most of us took the railroad.

HUNTLEY: So, you would attempt to avoid?

GOREE: We avoided what we called Cracker Town.

HUNTLEY: Now, in the mills there was only Whites working those mills, right?

GOREE: Some Blacks worked in the mills, but they would not furnish the homes.

HUNTLEY: Right. Now, you went to Ullman through what grade?

GOREE: Ullman, ninth thru tenth.

HUNTLEY: Then on to...

GOREE: To Parker.

HUNTLEY: Now Parker of course being the only school in the Birmingham system must have been a huge school.

GOREE: It was.

HUNTLEY: Did you look forward to going to Parker?

GOREE: I guess that was the dream of all of the children. Now if you lived in the Titusville area, you stayed at Ullman till the eleventh grade if you wanted to.

HUNTLEY: Ok, so Ullman did go to the eleventh grade?

GOREE: To the eleventh grade but those of us that didn't live on the Southside, we could choose to leave and go to Parker after we finished the tenth grade.

HUNTLEY: Oh, I see.

GOREE: Of course, you had the annex as a feeder also. You had two feeders going to Parker at the time. Ullman was a feeder of that school and Parker annex was a 00:14:00feeder school.

HUNTLEY: Why did you go to Ullman rather than go to the annex?

GOREE: I was zoned to Ullman. Thomas School children were zoned to Ullman.

HUNTLEY: Oh, I see.

GOREE: So, that's why I went to Ullman.

HUNTLEY: How would you describe Parker at the time that you were there?

GOREE: Fascinating.

HUNTLEY: In what ways?

GOREE: First of all, I guess if you look at it there was a certain amount of pride that was instilled in all students there. The pride now that, I guess exists in most Black high schools during that time. We are talking about the 1940s.

HUNTLEY: How did they instill that pride into you?

GOREE: Just by word of mouth but certain things were expected. Teachers were 00:15:00role models, in a term they use today, they were always well-dressed, very articulate. They were very conscience of being teachers, they saw it as a profession. It kind of makes you look up to them. The next thing, I'm always appalled by the number of students that were in the classroom, each classroom. There would be as many as 40 children in the class.

HUNTLEY: Is that right? 40 in each class?

GOREE: We were all required to learn.

HUNTLEY: And all did learn.

GOREE: Yes, this was not the problem as it is today. It always amazes me that the thousands of children they had at Parker at that time cause you had [inaudible] to every Black community then eleventh thru twelfth grade by then. 00:16:00We're supposed to have been the largest Black school in the United States, all that. But the school sat right there on the sidewalk and there never was a kid in front of the school. You never saw one student in front of...

HUNTLEY: No one hung out on the...

GOREE: No one hung out on the front of the building. Everybody was on the inside. The only way you saw someone on the front of that building they were leaving the school going home.

HUNTLEY: Were you involved in any extracurricular activities?

GOREE: Yes, I was, I enjoyed my high school career at Parker. I sang in the choir. I had to get to college before I realized that I really couldn't sing but 00:17:00I sang in the choir. I always regret that I missed William Henry he was in the service, Mary Allen Stollenwerck was in charge of the choir at the time. She was an excellent musician. She tried to make a second soprano out of me. I took typing and I guess the highlight of my stay at Parker was when I was chosen to be in the dramatic club [inaudible]. That was just like a dream come true to have been chosen to be a part of the dramatic club. So, I had a little choir, had dramatic experience and I had typing. Of course, my typing and choir were not extracurricular it was counted as a course.

HUNTLEY: Right.

GOREE: I took choir and typing rather than going to the required domestic work, you know. You had to go to laundry, and I didn't like that idea, so I tried to find a way out.

HUNTLEY: You had no brothers and sisters, right?

GOREE: I'm an only child, no brothers or sisters.

HUNTLEY: So, you are more or less paving your own way?

GOREE: That's true.

HUNTLEY: Many times, I've talked with people who had brothers and sisters that have gone ahead.

GOREE: I was the only one. I was always around a lot of children who were from large families, but I was the only one. No half-brothers, no half-sisters, no half nothing. Amazingly my husband was an only child too.

HUNTLEY: Was he at Parker?

GOREE: No, he was originally from Tuscaloosa.

HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. What did you do after Parker?

GOREE: After Parker I went to Alabama State.

HUNTLEY: Why Alabama State?

GOREE: Oh, that's the story of my life. (Laughing) I had all dreams. I had only a mother working, remember that. This is war years. Just at the end of the war because I'm talking about '45. War World II was over in June of '45. So, I'm looking real hard to try to get in somebody's college. I had written Tuskegee, they had a five year plan where you worked and went to Tuskegee on a five year plan. I said, I was going to be a dietician, that sounded like a good word, you know. That was the first year Alabama State offered us statewide scholarship 00:20:00testing to find out who was the best scholar in the state of Alabama. So, President [inaudible] launched a testing program to test every senior in high school in Alabama. All of the students who took the test if they scored high they had scholarships and they could go to Alabama State.

HUNTLEY: Full scholarships?

GOREE: Full scholarships, part scholarships, depending on your rank.

HUNTLEY: Right.

GOREE: So, when they came to Parker, they chose the seniors in the top ten bracket in the graduating class. So, I was chosen, and I only remember my math 00:21:00teacher tried to keep me out, he said I wasn't smart enough and my grades weren't good enough in geometry and so I shouldn't be qualified to take the test.

HUNTLEY: Oh, is that right? So, he tried to keep you from taking the test?

GOREE: Yes. He was head of the testing. [inaudible], I'm saying this because most people in Birmingham know the teacher [inaudible]. [inaudible] insisted on my being there.

HUNTLEY: Oh, ok.

GOREE: So, did my History teacher and my English teacher. I got a chance to take the statewide test and I scored high enough to get a scholarship to Alabama State. All of my dreams to Tuskegee went to the wind then because I had a scholarship.

HUNTLEY: And you were probably very excited about that.

GOREE: I was.

HUNTLEY: How many from your high school went to Alabama State at that time on a scholarship?

GOREE: On that scholarship program, I can't remember off hand.

HUNTLEY: But there were several...

GOREE: The smaller children in that upper ten. Many of them didn't choose Alabama State because most of them were from professional families. They went on to Tuskegee, Talladega, Morehouse, private colleges. I can't remember off hand who...

HUNTLEY: How many went in that time range?

GOREE: I can't think of anybody, maybe one girl, I can think of and myself in that testing program.

HUNTLEY: That test then was not necessarily administered by Alabama State?

GOREE: Oh, yes.

HUNTLEY: It was by Alabama State?

GOREE: Yes, by Alabama State people. They came up on certain Saturdays. And out 00:23:00of that class came the smartest student in the state of Alabama.

HUNTLEY: Out of Parker?

GOREE: Out of my class, yes.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember that person's name?

GOREE: Yes, that person passed this year, last year. Noel Wills, Jr. You might've heard the name.

HUNTLEY: Noel Wills, Jr.?

GOREE: Yes, he became a medical doctor. His father was principal here in the city. He made the high score throughout the state of Alabama. It became a competitive thing. Later on, we always accused Rosedale, Rosedale High School, Mr. E. J. Oliver, had the highest number of students scoring on the test after that.

HUNTLEY: Rosedale or Fairfield?

GOREE: Fairfield, I'm sorry, yeah, Fairfield. Fairfield started walking away. 00:24:00Fairfield had it and won. So, we started saying E. J. Oliver had the test. (Laughing). It was amazing.

HUNTLEY: What was that transition like from high school to college?

GOREE: First time away from home. It was very different. Had to adjust to dormitory life. They were very strict at that time too. Lights out, on campus and all of that stuff. I took it in stride because I really wanted to go to college. I didn't have a hard time adjusting. I was fortunate enough to get a job. Work-scholarship in the high school office because I had worked in high school offices previously. So, they just placed me in a high school office.

HUNTLEY: What was your major?

GOREE: I came out with a double major, I guess. I need to look at my transcript sometime. I don't know if I have more hours in History or English, but I was a History/English Major, Secondary Education.

HUNTLEY: Did you enjoy that time at Alabama State?

GOREE: It was a learning experience and I came out very excited, very confident. I felt like we had one of the best curriculums that any college could have offered. I've always admired my president. [inaudible] was a brilliant man. He worked night hours, 12:00, 1:00 you could see [inaudible] office lights burning. But he was a lover of academics.

HUNTLEY: That's right.

GOREE: I've always felt so grateful to him especially for the course that was a requirement to freshmen. We took what was a called a [inaudible] Socials Class and an Integrated Arts Class, required of all freshmen. We had 21 hours in one and 18 hours in the other. It was kind of like a survey of all of the sciences and survey of all of the arts. And of course...

HUNTLEY: And all of that was required?

GOREE: That was required, and it most certainly exposed you at an early age to various facets of education.

HUNTLEY: Right.

GOREE: Even today I fall back on some of the knowledge I acquired from those classes. So, I came out of Alabama State a little bit cocky.

HUNTLEY: It was known for it's music as well.

GOREE: A lot of teachers. It was a teacher college. I didn't pursue the music, I told you I found out that I couldn't sing. I didn't go to Dr. Hall.

HUNTLEY: So, after State did you come back home?

GOREE: I came back home. Started looking for a job.

HUNTLEY: Did you find one immediately?

GOREE: No, I had to go to a smaller town where one of my good friends lived. In fact, I just didn't wait long enough. First come, first serve. I'm a little girl looking for a job in a hurry. So, I taught two years out of town.

HUNTLEY: Where?

GOREE: Fayette, Alabama.

HUNTLEY: Fayette, ok. This was just before the Brown versus Board of Education decision?

GOREE: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And when you came back here where did you teach first?

GOREE: Ullman High School.

HUNTLEY: Oh, you taught at Ullman?

GOREE: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What was that like? That's your alma mater, now you're going back.

GOREE: It was like heaven. I knew Dr. Bell so well. See, I had worked in his office as a student.

HUNTLEY: Right.

GOREE: Then when I went to college I had classes under him. He was a marvelous 00:29:00teacher. He taught me geography and I learned so much. Not only geographically but he was very philosophical. So, many things I learned.

HUNTLEY: So, he taught at Alabama State?

GOREE: He taught at Alabama State, summer classes.

HUNTLEY: So, you returned here to teach at Ullman, was that, had that been a dream of yours to come back and be able to...

GOREE: I was just so glad, I was happy. I really was. Especially to be at Ullman with Dr. Bell because he had been my principal and I just felt like I knew him, you know as a high school student.

HUNTLEY: So, were you there at Ullman then in '54 when Brown versus Board took place?

GOREE: Yes, I was.

HUNTLEY: What was, did that have any impact upon what was taking place at 00:30:00Ullman? Were there any discussions about what that meant to Black education in Birmingham?

GOREE: It really didn't hit home to hard. We talked about it and we read about it. Maybe they had news articles on it, but it didn't have any definite impact.

HUNTLEY: Right.

GOREE: We didn't really see the fore coming. Yet I think once Parker [inaudible] went to Alabama that brought it closer.

HUNTLEY: Right.

GOREE: It became rather a fascinating subject then.

HUNTLEY: Were you a voter then, at that time?

GOREE: I was a voter.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember when you took your voting test?

GOREE: Yes, I do.

HUNTLEY: What was that like?

GOREE: I didn't go through all of the silly questions that some of the people were asked. It was strictly Constitutional questions. Of course, the most 00:31:00interesting thing about it is Dr. Patton always managed to get the exam. And he had it Xeroxed and you just studied and studied. After I became a registered voter I conducted voter registration classes where we taught other people how to vote.

HUNTLEY: Were you a member of the NAACP?

GOREE: I was a member to the NAACP, I sure was.

HUNTLEY: In '56 when the organization was outlawed from operating in this state.

GOREE: I was not as active, but I was a card-carrying member.

HUNTLEY: Right. I'm sure there were many teachers that were card carrying members. My aunt was a card-carrying member but she didn't attend any of the meetings, but she paid her dues every year and was supportive that way. It was 00:32:00rather dangerous to be a member of the NAACP in terms of I guess the powers that be knowing that. Was that true or not?

GOREE: No, no fear or threat even at Alabama State. I was surrounded by persons who were active members of the NAACP.

HUNTLEY: After it was outlawed from operating in the state and the Alabama Christian Movement was organized, were you at all involved with that phase of the movement. I know you would be involved later on but in those initial days?GOREE: No, I was not involved, not a member. As you know the Alabama 00:33:00Christian Movement was almost church based.

HUNTLEY: Right.

GOREE: Throughout the ministers and my minister was not a part of it. So, being a [inaudible], lead more or less by his church philosophy I didn't join or become a part of it.

HUNTLEY: Were you still living in the same neighborhood?

GOREE: Living in East Birmingham. The impact was so great from the Alabama Christian Movement people started setting up smaller groups. Now in East Birmingham under Dr. Patton and some more ministers that's where we started this voting clinic. We called it a Civic League.

HUNTLEY: Right.

GOREE: We became very civic minded. Because of the impact of the Christian 00:34:00Movement. Since we were not in that big circle or that mainstream we had our own little Civic League.

HUNTLEY: How did the Civic Leagues operate?

GOREE: It operated primarily for improving the community if necessary. We were basically interested in getting people to vote. We held voting clinics every Wednesday night throughout the neighborhood. We found those people and that was an experience because I was never aware, maybe I should say, I had no awareness of how many people that I had grown up under that could not read and write. These were the people that were pretty much neighborhood role models, 00:35:00homeowners, nice dressers and money paying people in the church.

HUNTLEY: But they could not read and write?

GOREE: But they couldn't read and write and I was astounded. Because I was not aware of their limitations. They would come and then also those who were interested the older people we would sit down and go over it just like we would with a child. We got them ready for all of the tricky questions. That question about how old is your oldest child and you would answer and especially for the men or the ladies. Then they would ask you when did you marry. You would tell them when you married. If that child was born out of wedlock they would not qualify you.

HUNTLEY: That would actually disqualify you?

GOREE: That would disqualify you. So, we had to keep pounding that in their heads about those persons. The highlight of that Civic League in East Birmingham 00:36:00was Rosa Parks spoke and I introduced her.

HUNTLEY: Oh, is that right?

GOREE: Yes, we had a church field and we were all outside and she was the lady of the hour.

HUNTLEY: What church?

GOREE: That St. Luke's [inaudible] church in East Birmingham. That's where we had our anniversary program and we invited Rosa Parks as a guest speaker, and she came.

HUNTLEY: Is that right? Did Martin Luther King come to your church in those early days?

GOREE: No, he never came to my church.

HUNTLEY: But you heard him speak?

GOREE: New Pilgrim Baptist Church.

HUNTLEY: At New Pilgrim?

GOREE: I think it might be in that introduction I gave Lola.

HUNTLEY: It says in '55.

GOREE: I heard him speak the first time he came to Birmingham. That was '55 right after the bus boycott. At Sixteenth Baptist Church. The rest of the time I 00:37:00heard him at the mass meetings and that's wherever he was. Two times he spoke [inaudible] New Pilgrim Baptist Church. That was a special occasion I heard him there. Many times, at the mass meetings because I went to all of the mass meetings. The last time he spoke was at the city auditorium and that was when he was, had declared war on, not war, but spoke out against the Vietnam War.

HUNTLEY: That was in '66 or '67.

GOREE: The last speech. He made it in Birmingham. He was [inaudible] to tell the federal government that they were wrong.

HUNTLEY: Sounds as if every time King was in town you were there.

GOREE: Never missed the opportunity, never missed it.

HUNTLEY: What kind of feeling did you have as you listened to Martin Luther King?

GOREE: I was drawn to him, I guess, psychologically drawn to him because of his charisma then the depths of his speeches. I was always fascinated by him and still am whenever I hear him or read his work. You cannot argue with him. You find it very hard to debate with him. You've got to be a real philosopher to debate with Dr. King. I'm always fascinated with that. He's one person that I just can't, with my limited knowledge I cannot [inaudible]. It's very difficult 00:39:00to disagree with him. The next thing he was a very warm person. I found that out twice I had encountered to just really touch him so to speak. We were at the Smith & Gaston's Lounge, that's when all of the children were in jail. He came in and all of us went down there. I would always leave Ullman High School headed for a movement meeting. I would never go home.

HUNTLEY: Was that every day?

GOREE: Every day, when there was a mass meeting I was going. So, we were down in the lounge having, not alcohol but cokes, coffee, sandwiches. The lounge was just like this with people. All of a sudden he came through and I've never seen 00:40:00people just run up and pull on a person. Dr. King, my daughter, Dr. King, my son and he was just as nice, just as warm. He didn't pull away. He didn't seem [inaudible]. He would say, "Yes, ma'am, I understand we're working on that." No frustration. Then a friend of mine knew him personally so she said, "Goree, come on let's make the pictures." I said, "No, give me the video." So, I videoed the girls with him. We weren't girls but the young ladies with him. I videoed them while they were standing up there with Dr. King.

HUNTLEY: You mean you took motion pictures?

GOREE: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Do you have any of those?

GOREE: I guess Doris still has them. [inaudible]. She said, "Come on." And I was just too excited. Then that last night when he was at the auditorium that was 00:41:00the last time I saw him. She went up to...I was always with two or three certain people. She went up to the counter to speak to him. He said, "Hey girl, where's your pastor at?" She said, "I don't know I thought he was here." About that time, she was shorter than I was, and I just reached in there and shook his hand, you know. (Laughing) I tease her about it, I said, "Girl, I almost knocked you in that car trying to shake Dr. King's hand." So, I shook his hand. Then when he was at 6th Avenue one night he was autographing his books and I bought a book and he autographed it. So, I never missed an opportunity wherever Dr. King was. I regret that...I have two regrets; I didn't go to Selma and I didn't go to the march in Washington. Two regrets I have now, I wish I was a part of it.

HUNTLEY: Right. You attended the mass meetings on a regular basis?

GOREE: Regular basis.

HUNTLEY: How would you describe a mass meeting?

GOREE: I think it's one of those phases in history that you read about, but you can't believe it until you encounter it. First of all, all fears are gone. I've never felt that death...if we had died in a church I don't think I would have cared. If a bomb had gone off, we were just that happy, we were just that elated. So, it's not often you get that kind of a feeling. Where you step on a policeman's foot if it's in the way. Or you know the church is being guarded or you know people are out there. We just don't care. I think the removal of fear 00:43:00is something that I had not experienced, and I don't know if I will ever have that kind of emotional feeling again. Another thing that amazes me about the movement now, you know in retrospectively, is that there was something there for everybody. You would go in and the first thing in the afternoon and if you hadn't eaten in the basement of the church or the annex or wherever it was. You had fish fry, you had hot dogs, hamburgers and so on that's the atmosphere right there. Then after that you go upstairs for the meeting and you had an old fashion pray meeting. So, for all of us that love old-fashioned prayer meetings where folks actually say your prayers, you know. So that satisfied that element. 00:44:00After that you had the Alabama Christian Movement Choir taking the stand. So, if you're a person who likes gospel, we had gospel at its best.

HUNTLEY: That's the place to be?

GOREE: That's the place to be. Collection time, you got Gardner, Rev. Gardner, who was a comedian by nature. So, when he got ready to take up a collection it was almost like you had Eddie Murphy up there. He would just keep you laughing, always some kind of joke. He would take up collection and it was...especially jokes on the White folks. So, he just tickled me. After that nothing is never 00:45:00the same. Each personality, Ralph Abernathy would take the podium, tell this little hickey all those teasickers, talking about the people who got along with White people, he would call them teasickers. He would come along and tell them I bath in White ivory soap and I don't stink and all that. Well, you know that kind of down home [inaudible] talk really got the people involved.

HUNTLEY: Right.

GOREE: Finally, when Dr. King came out you're already happy and that's like putting the icing on the cake. He comes in with all the intellectual and all the...You know, not only the intellectual but the charisma he had and the power 00:46:00to speak.

HUNTLEY: By that time, you could put it all together?

GOREE: Yeah, you could pull it all together. [inaudible]. You just had such a variety and you leave out singing, "We Shall Overcome." It was an [inaudible]. Maybe I should say, a spiritual explosion or a spiritual high. That kept people coming, as many as three churches would fill with people, especially when the kids were in jail.

HUNTLEY: Now, I've interviewed many people and found out that many of the teachers or professional people were really not involved because they were afraid of losing their jobs. You were a teacher, why were you involved at the 00:47:00level that you were?

GOREE: I'll tell you after 3:00 my time was my own. I had no fear of the job. The younger people [inaudible]. Some people walked off the job, but they had to be younger people.

HUNTLEY: Oh, some did walk off the job?

GOREE: Some, especially in Montgomery, you had that type of people to walk off. Then you had a few teachers that went to jail. At least I know one, ...

[end of side one]

HUNTLEY: Were you involved in any demonstrations?

GOREE: One, that was that Easter Sunday when they marched out of St. Carl's, I marched.

HUNTLEY: What was that like? I mean that was a big demonstration.

GOREE: That was a big demonstration. Well, there were so many people that you just felt hypocritical if you just didn't get out there and walk with them.

HUNTLEY: Were you arrested?

GOREE: No, I wasn't arrested, sure wasn't.

HUNTLEY: What did it feel like being, you know after the speeches and all and then you hit the pavement. What was that experience like?

GOREE: I think it showed you the power of the movement. You just didn't care. You were just ready for whatever. I can see why the young people went, really. It was motivational.

HUNTLEY: Many of the students would leave school or they wouldn't come to 00:49:00school, they would come right down to this part of downtown and demonstrate. You as a teacher, did you attempt to discourage them from being involved? Or did you encourage them to get involved? Or were you neutral in that aspect?

GOREE: Neutral, but always wanting to know what happened. Never blocked anybody at my door. I had a lot of respect for George Bell at the time. I never stood in anybody's way. I didn't want them to tell him that Ms. Goree told me to go. So, I was neutral. I didn't say don't go but I never held my hand across the door. I never threatened anybody with a grade.

HUNTLEY: Did any of your students ever leave from your class?

GOREE: Emptied the classroom and came back telling me the news. We hugged.

HUNTLEY: So, in effect you were...you really aided and abetted?

GOREE: Yeah, I was their confidant lady. We would talk about it, close the door, no class today. We would talk about last night. Never stood up and blocked the door or at no point did I say go because I didn't want it to get to the principal that I encouraged them to leave. They needed no encouragement because they just walked out.

HUNTLEY: As a result of your involvement, your participation in the mass 00:51:00meetings. Were there ever any threats toward you as far as your job was concerned?

GOREE: No threats at all.

HUNTLEY: Then did many people, many people that were teachers, simply assume that there would have been some retaliation if they had gotten involved. Were there actual retaliations toward some of the teachers?

GOREE: I think retaliation is a word they used. I think they left it to those people. You know how we separate ourselves.

HUNTLEY: I see.

GOREE: I can't believe they feared their jobs to that extent. Then again, I [inaudible] especially when I'm playing bridge or when I'm in a sorority meeting. Or if I'm at Ullman the next day talking about it. It's almost a turn 00:52:00up your nose attitude, y'all go ahead on.

HUNTLEY: Oh, is that right?

GOREE: Yeah.

HUNTLEY: So, people were making determinations based upon...

GOREE: You people, yeah. That belongs to the other people, that's not for us.

HUNTLEY: So, was it a class thing?

GOREE: Kind of a class thing. Even their children, for their children, it was a class thing.

HUNTLEY: That's interesting.

GOREE: I think that worry when people were telling you that they were frightened about their job. I think that really was class. I always felt it was sort of a class thing.

HUNTLEY: That's very interesting. I've heard that before.

GOREE: You hide behind the word retaliation but no.

HUNTLEY: It was a decision that you made?

GOREE: A decision you made. They just didn't see the effort; I mean they didn't 00:53:00see the purpose.

HUNTLEY: The night that A. D. King's home was bombed first and then the A. G. Gaston motel was bombed. Do you remember that?

GOREE: Very well, I jumped in the car and came down. Wouldn't miss it for nothing.

HUNTLEY: So, what did you see when you came down?

GOREE: Well, first of all it was mass confusion, especially for the Blacks. [inaudible] fire started. When we got in the motel it was just jammed pack and James Labor was up on the table trying to quite people down. He was a security guard and he could wear a uniform. So, he kind of represented a police vision for us. Not a policeman but just a security guard. He had on his security uniform and he was trying to quite the people down. Especially the light skin 00:54:00people. We laughed about that. Some light skin people came through and they had to holler out, I'm a Negro, I'm a Negro. They thought everybody looked White. There were policemen everywhere. The tank was rolling. Bull Conner's tank was rolling. It was just chaos, it really was.

HUNTLEY: Was your husband involved?

GOREE: My husband never was involved. He always left it up to me. (Laughing) He said, there was no need for both of us to be crazy.

HUNTLEY: Why did you not attend the march on Washington?

GOREE: I really didn't have. I don't think I had, my associates, the girls that I would be with, they didn't particularly want to go. I don't know if I had an idea of transportation, rather to fly or try to catch a bus. I didn't get in with who was leaving Birmingham to go. I got lost in that part of the movement. That's why I didn't go.

HUNTLEY: Well, just a month after that, in fact less than a month after that the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church was bombed. Where were you that Sunday morning?

GOREE: I was at my church in East Birmingham. Of course, you know I lived next door to one of the girls that was killed.

HUNTLEY: I didn't know that. Which girl?

GOREE: Cynthia Wesley was my next door neighbor.

HUNTLEY: When did you find out she had been killed?

GOREE: Well, my husband came and got me when he heard the news. He came to 00:56:00church and told me to come home, Cynthia had been killed.

HUNTLEY: This is while you were actually in church?

GOREE: Yeah, he came. We had just left out of Sunday School and getting ready for our 11:00 services.

HUNTLEY: How did that impact your community?

GOREE: Well, everybody was saddened by it and shocked. If you would notice even in the community where you live today, you don't have that community cohesiveness that you had growing up. How many people on your street that you really know personally that...HUNTLEY: It's a difference.

GOREE: It's a difference. Everybody knew Cynthia. It brought the neighbors together. They came in and out of the Wesley's home. Then they had their 00:57:00friends. It was just a busy time. I would go in and out and offer my assistance in anything I could do.

HUNTLEY: Did you attend the funeral?

GOREE: I attended the funeral. Sure did. It was at 6th Avenue South, Rev. Porter was the pastor there. So, I attended their funeral. Of course, you know, Dr. King spoke, so, I remember I was standing in the window, sure was. We experienced quite a bit living there on the hill because every time the Shores' home was bombed.

HUNTLEY: That's right, yes.

GOREE: They would come through my community. I'm not far from the Shores' home.

HUNTLEY: Right, you are right on top of Dynamite Hill.

GOREE: Yeah. The police would come and tell us to go back in the house. So, I 00:58:00did have them holler at you, Get back in that house. Shoot through the shrubberies on our street.

HUNTLEY: Oh, is that right?

GOREE: They would shoot through the hedges and stuff like that. Then they would order us back in the house. Weren't even down there at Shores' house just standing on our porch.

HUNTLEY: How many of them? Were there many policemen or just a car?

GOREE: Just, maybe about two cars.

HUNTLEY: So, you didn't look at the Birmingham Police Department as being there in the community to protect and serve you?

GOREE: No protection, no not at all. I never felt that they were there to protect, sure didn't.

HUNTLEY: Right. Now we've covered an awful lot of territory. Is there anything else that you would like to include before we conclude?

GOREE: Lest we forget that too much credit cannot be given to Fred Shuttlesworth because his house was leveled. I did go to see that bombing. He paved the way before Dr. King got here. I was with those kids that integrated riding that bus before Dr. King came. I knew all about those who dared to sit. I knew the kids by name. They worked with Fred and Rev. [inaudible] on southside. So, maybe I 01:00:00should describe myself in one [inaudible]. I have no regrets and it's an experience that I wouldn't take anything for. It's different than secondary. Secondary experience and primary experience.

HUNTLEY: That's right.

GOREE: That first-hand experience in being there is something that you really can't explain. I just hope somehow people who were involved in Birmingham, especially should have written a book because they were right in the middle of it. It was a price to pay. But the price that was paid I know why it was paid because there was no fear. It was such a conviction that people were just willing to die for it. You look at it now and you feel sorry, but it was such a 01:01:00strong conviction. Only thing I would like to close with is where do we stand now.

HUNTLEY: Where do we stand now?

GOREE: You think we made progress and you can turn it off now, you and I are just talking now. Rather we really appreciate it. I don't think...there was one thing about Dr. King, he didn't advocate divisions. It didn't make any difference if you marched or not. If you had something to offer. I think that's where we should be now. It's not the person who got out there and walked in the street. You played your part.

HUNTLEY: Everybody had a role.

GOREE: Right, everybody had a role to play. Only thing I'm saying is the persons who are now serving should have the same type of commitment to do a good job.

HUNTLEY: That's right. I want to thank you for taking your time.

GOREE: Oh, ok.

HUNTLEY: You've been very helpful.

GOREE: Just bubbling over what I think about it.

HUNTLEY: I can tell. Thank you.