Almarie Billups

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Alma Billups for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at 465 Water Street on June 28, 1995.

Mrs. Billups, thank you for inviting us into your home to speak with us today.

BILLUPS: You're welcome.

HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking a few general kinds of questions about your family. Where were your parents from?

BILLUPS: My mother and father was born in Camp Hill, Alabama. That's in Tallapoosa County.

HUNTLEY: Down Highway 280?

BILLUPS: Yes. You know, at first it was this mountain that the train went through. They called it Double Oaks Mountain before they converted it. And the train, they called it the Little Short Central. We would ride that from Irondale to Camp Hill. Go through Dadeville and go on to Camp Hill. And you went through the mountain in a tunnel. But now you know you can go out 280.

HUNTLEY: Were you born in Camp Hill?

BILLUPS: No. I wasn't. My mother and father came to Birmingham. Well, it's Irondale. They moved there in 1922. And I had two brothers born before me. One 00:02:00was born in '21 and the other was born in '22. Then I had a brother born in '23 and one born in '24 and I was born in '25.

HUNTLEY: So you're the baby?

BILLUPS: I'm the baby.

HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your parents. What was their education?

BILLUPS: Now, my daddy was a WWI vet. He was in the war. They were mostly farmers and my mother's father owned something like a plantation. Because when we could go there in the summer, after we got out of school, he had acres of land. He planted a lot of cotton. He had apple orchards and peaches and grapes, chickens.

HUNTLEY: This is in Camp Hill?

BILLUPS: This is in Camp Hill and we would go there for the summer. That's after my mother and father had moved here. And we would go there and my grandfather, my mother's father, he was kind of like, kind of wealthy I believe, I assume you would say Black people were in those days. He owned his own home and things like that.

HUNTLEY: How much schooling did your parents have?

BILLUPS: Well, I would say maybe not a 6th or the 8th grade. Something like that.

HUNTLEY: What were their occupations?

BILLUPS: My daddy first started out working in a coal mine. And they were coal mines at that time that Black men worked in, the shafts were so low, they had to lay on their backs with a little cap, they called it a mining cap and it would have carbolic acid and you'd put it in there and it would flash and turn the light on. They had to hold their head up to dig coal. And, after he left the 00:04:00coal mine, well, I guess I was 10 or 11, he started working on the railroad, the Southern Railroad and that's where he retired from.

HUNTLEY: Was your mother a housewife? Did she work outside of the house?

BILLUPS: No more than having to help daddy out, maybe, washing and ironing for the white people. Maybe house cleaning sometime. But mostly, she was housewife. She set up our house and she did a lot of preserving and canning and cooking, you know.

HUNTLEY: She did what housewives did at that time, right?

BILLUPS: At that time, yes.

HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your childhood. Where did you start elementary school?

BILLUPS: Well, I started elementary school when I was 5 ½. And the reason I was able to do that is because my mother would take my brothers and I thought I was 00:05:00supposed to go everywhere the brothers went. And when she would take them to school I would cry. And so the teacher's name was Bertha B. Howard, I will never forget. She said, "Let her come on." And so she let me settle on with six year olds. And I learned.

HUNTLEY: So you went ahead of yourself?

BILLUPS: I went ahead of myself. Because I finished high school when I was 17 ½. But I tell you one thing, in all the schools, Bertha B. Howard was my inspiration and the lady that taught me how to read, write and arithmetic. Those were the basics. Now, they didn't just say, I can write better than any of my children. I can write better than my grandchildren, because they write their own style. They draw their writing, you know. But we were taught writing. We had a writing book. And at first grade, when it was time for them, they would go to the front seat and they did their work.

You know every grade would move up. It was a small town so there wasn't that many children, but it went to the fifth grade. At that time I was in the sixth grade and graduated from the sixth grade and would have gone to, I can't think of it. But anyway, my brothers went to high school at Parker High in the city. But when they built this high school on Grants Mill Road, you passed a place called the Golden Rule Bar B Que, right on Grants Mill Road and that's 78, you know.

HUNTLEY: What was the name of that school?

BILLUPS: It was, they called it Irondale Senior High at that time. But, I graduated from there in 1942 when I was 17 ½. But, after that year, they converted into a junior high school.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your high school days? What stands out in your mind about that time?

BILLUPS: What really stands out, my science teacher, Mrs. Warren, Marqueta 00:07:00Warren, and I don't know whether she still teaching there, but my mother got very ill when I was in the 11th grade fixing to go to the 12th grade and I had stayed home quite a bit, because I'm the only girl. There were a certain amount of experiments we had to do to complete that science class. She would stay with me after school and help me to make up those experiments so I would have enough credits and my mother and father was not able at that time, because momma was so ill, they were not able to buy me a class ring, and you know they cost $12.95 then, but...

HUNTLEY: That was a lot of money at that time?

BILLUPS: Oh, goodness. And it was beautiful gold. Ms. Warren said, "Don't cry, 00:08:00I'll get your ring for you." She got me a ring.

HUNTLEY: I'm sure that that made an impression on you?

BILLUPS: Yes, and my mother sewed. Because when I graduated from the 6th grade to the 7th grade, you know, that was just like, you got a diploma and you wore a ribbon, but I didn't have a white dress. You had to have a white dress. My mother had a white dress, she cut her white dress up and made it for me and I graduated from elementary school.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about the community that you lived in. What kind of work did the people do? What did you do for recreation? What do you remember as a child?

BILLUPS: As a child I remember we were a very close knit neighborhood. Mt. Hebron Baptist Church that's where the center of most everything were. We would go to Vacation Bible School and, then there was an open lot right next to mommy and daddy's lot and that's where my mother, the ladies and everything went on 00:09:00the picnics and things like that, they did a lot of bar-b-queuing. And we played out there and we called it the grove. But the church used to sponsor things like hay rides on the back of a truck. And we had Sunday School picnics and we played a lot of baseball back then. I never learned how to play. You know what, all four of my big brothers took care of me.

HUNTLEY: You were sheltered?

BILLUPS: Yes. You know what, everybody in Irondale could skate, ride bicycles, do all that, I couldn't. But, my brothers would put me on the back of their bicycles and ride me.

HUNTLEY: What did you like to do most of all?

BILLUPS: Run with my brothers. And, like at church, we had junior choirs and senior choirs. I liked to do a lot of singing. And my oldest brother did a lot of singing at that time.

HUNTLEY: So you were intimately involved with the church?

BILLUPS: With the church, yes. I even remember the pastor. Out of all these years, Rev. W. H. Smith, I joined the church under him.

HUNTLEY: Did your parents own or did they rent?

BILLUPS: They owned. My brother, at first we rented. When I was like 6 or 7 years old. But, my daddy bought a piece of property. When he went to WWI they didn't pay them all. They got what you call a bonus and he got his second bonus, all the rest of his money. What you call mustering out pay. They called them bonuses then. And in 1941, they sent my daddy $832 and my daddy and my oldest 00:11:00brother, he already had this lot. My daddy and my oldest brother built this house. That whole house. It was two bedrooms and they built me a little small one by me being the only girl. The boys had a room to themselves. Momma and daddy's room and, then, I had a small room. And we had a living room, a kitchen and dining room, but we had outside toilet facilities at that time. But eventually we got, you know. And, at first we had electric light. And, you know, I got my best lessons then. But guess what, then we got electricity down in that little section and in each room, there was one light hanging down. You clicked it.

HUNTLEY: I remember those.

BILLUPS: And we had a radio.

HUNTLEY: So you were middle class?

BILLUPS: Yes. Because my daddy always worked. He did two or three different things, We were the first people in Irondale to have a telephone and we were on a four-party line and that was the best thing, we thought. Well, we got that when I was about 15. Like the radio, when Joe Louis would be fighting, people would be in our yard, because nobody else had a radio. So we opened up the door and turned the radio and everybody enjoyed the fights.

BILLUPS: Yes, and see my daddy, by him working at the railroad, he worked at the (inaudible) company. And so, they had a commissary and we had the first television in Irondale. So everybody come and look at the TV. We had, you know 00:13:00how they have a square now, we had an oblong one.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school?

BILLUPS: After high school I taught kindergarten for about two years out in Ensley. There was a funeral home. They called it Patton's Funeral Home. And, then in 1947, I met Charles and I had gotten a job at a meat factory. It was on 64th Street and First Avenue in Woodlawn. He was just coming out of WWII because he still had to go back because he was in the reserves. So, I went to apply for that job and I didn't carry lunch money because I didn't know I was going to get 00:14:00hired. I got hired that day. And so his mother always bought him hot lunches.

HUNTLEY: He was already working there?

BILLUPS: He was already working there and he saw me sitting in a corner without anything to eat and he shared his lunch with me. I met him, guess what? We started talking and in two weeks' time we decided, I guess, we were in love. We said we were going to marry June the 12th. We met in December and we married in January, two weeks after.

HUNTLEY: You mean you were married a month after you met him?

BILLUPS: After I met him. And when he came to my daddy and ask for me, which 00:15:00they don't do now, they just go on and marry. And my daddy said, "Well, now okay. I'm going to tell you about her." He said, "You know she got four brothers that's older and they've always taken care of her." My daddy told Charles, "She's lazy, she don't know how to cook, she can't even boil water. But, if you want to marry her and you love my daughter, you can marry her." He said, "But I tell you one thing, if you ever get tired of her, if you don't have a car, put her in a cab and send her to me and I'll pay for her." Charles used to tell me, "Lady, Lord I wish I had sent you home in a cab to your daddy."

HUNTLEY: How long were you married?

BILLUPS: Before he died, we had been married 22 years.

HUNTLEY: So you had a short engagement but a long marriage?

BILLUPS: Yes. And we were married three years before the first child was born. Because at that time he went to Booker T. Washington Business College, he finished there. He used to work three jobs. He worked at Conner Steel. He worked four hours a night at Pizitz as a janitor and, then he was going to school. He was going on the GI Bill. He finished that and he finished an "A" student. Mr. Gaston just loved him.

HUNTLEY: Where did you live?

BILLUPS: At that time we was staying in Irondale. My mother had converted her home into an apartment and we stayed there. And, then, in the latter part of 1949, we bought a house at the airport. That's the house we're living in when 00:17:00all these old things were happening.

HUNTLEY: Your husband was very active in the NAACP. Were you active in the NAACP?

BILLUPS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about that. What kind of activities did you get involved in?

BILLUPS: Now, I at the time I was with him, but my husband was always, wherever they went, especially Mr. Patton, Mr. Gwen and Mr. Shortridge, these three men were very instrumental in his life and...

HUNTLEY: W. C. Patton?

BILLUPS: W. C. Patton. And, you know, Mr. Shortridge, he's dead. You know he had the Shortridge Funeral Home.

HUNTLEY: So these three individuals had quite an impact on what he would actually be a part of?

BILLUPS: Right.

HUNTLEY: Were you registered voters at the time?

BILLUPS: My husband went, you know, he would carry this long list of things. Every time he would go they would always foul up and he had to go about six times before he passed. You know they asked you who was a senator, how many, who was this, and what about Alabama and everything. But, he finally went because what he did in our house, he would bring back things that he would miss on that registration thing, well, he would tell other people about it. So, he said, "Now, you got to go." I wasn't voting then. But, when I went they had, as a matter of fact, they was still paying poll tax when he started voting, but right after then, you know, they stopped that poll tax thing and that's when I went 00:19:00and I passed it on the first try.

HUNTLEY: He had educated you?

BILLUPS: Right.

HUNTLEY: And he would bring other people in?

BILLUPS: Actually into the house.

HUNTLEY: And help them to qualify for registration.

BILLUPS: Right. Qualify.

HUNTLEY: In June 1956 the State of Alabama outlawed the operation of the NAACP and as a result of that the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized. Were you and your husband involved in that?

BILLUPS: Yes. He was very involved and we were too, because he was. Because when he would go to the meetings, sometime I might get mad because everything was going on and we had a lot of old white reporters and all these police and everything out there. And actually I was a little bit timid about it. You know, he could talk me into doing things.

HUNTLEY: You were afraid to get involved, you said you were timid?

BILLUPS: I wasn't afraid I was really just a little bit timid. And, I didn't, you know...

HUNTLEY: About his involvement?

BILLUPS: Yes. Because I was always so afraid that he was going to get hurt because he was very outspoken.

HUNTLEY: How close, how well did you know Fred Shuttlesworth?

BILLUPS: Very, very well.

HUNTLEY: Were he and your husband very closely associated even prior to the organization of the Alabama Christian Movement?

BILLUPS: Well, no. They were, it was really after the organization. They did everything together. You know, even though it may not ever be mentioned, you know when Shuttlesworth took the boys and Rev. Pfeiffer...

HUNTLEY: To Phillips High School?

BILLUPS: Yes, well, my husband was with them then.

HUNTLEY: He was with them?

BILLUPS: Yes, and my husband was also, you know when his home, the first time he was bombed, I was at work, but he had the girls in the car with him and do you know they went over there?

HUNTLEY: They went to his house?

BILLUPS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: This is in December of '56?

BILLUPS: Yes, and don't you know if I had known my children was out there, I would have left work and beat him up, I think.

HUNTLEY: Now, I talked with your daughter also. She said there were times when they would take you to work and, then, he would say that he's going to take the girls back home but the girls would not go back home, they would go to the meeting with him?

BILLUPS: Right.

HUNTLEY: When did you find out about that?

BILLUPS: Oh, I guess about a year or so, they were doing that. And, one night, the baby, she was 4 and, then she turned 5. She said, "Momma, you know what? I saw my daddy coming in the house but he had his shoes off and he was backing through the door." And, after then, because he got beat up in '57. After all of that going, whatever he was doing, he would take me and the children. He would 00:22:00take me to work from 11 to 7. And he would take them down to the motel. Because that one in there one night was sleeping and the man next door had dogs and he had chains on them and the dogs had gotten loose. So they were going back and forth because my porch, we had a concrete porch, and she thought it was the Ku Klux Klan out there trying to get them.

HUNTLEY: This is your daughter (inaudible)?

BILLUPS: Yes. That one in there. And that's when they got afraid to stay at home by themselves. And that's why he would take them with him every night, you know.

HUNTLEY: He would essentially take them with him so that they would not be afraid?

BILLUPS: Yes. He would be in all night meetings and I thought the children would be at home in the bed and they would be down there with their daddy.

HUNTLEY: So what was happening then, you were, in fact, working 11:00 at night 00:23:00to 7:00 in the morning?

BILLUPS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And he would take you to work and, then, he was going to the meetings so he would have to carry his children with him and, then, they would do their homework or whatever they needed to do in the car?

BILLUPS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And, you then, would eventually find out about it and what were your reactions when you found out?

BILLUPS: Oh, I can't even tell you. It was horrible at first, because I was not disgusted, I was afraid that something was going to happen to the children. And, see, in '57 was when my husband was beaten up.

HUNTLEY: Was he working at Hayes?

BILLUPS: Hayes Aircraft, yes.

HUNTLEY: Can you tell me the circumstances of that?

BILLUPS: Yes. They had the white bathroom and the Black bathroom, but the Black bathroom was always filled. And he said one night after about 11:30 he just got 00:24:00tired of waiting. So he went and took a bath in the bath house for the whites and for 3-4 days they didn't do anything to him. But on about the 4th or 5th day, he was riding with one of our neighbors. They used to go back and forth to work on the 3 to 11. And, on the 4th night I sat up all night long because I said, because he had kind of a bad stomach and I used to sit up to keep the dinner kind of warm for him. But he never showed up and I couldn't imagine what had happened. And, then, about 4:00 that morning Rev. Smith came.

HUNTLEY: Was that N. H. Smith?

BILLUPS: Yes, he was our pastor then. He said, "Alma Ree, we got to go. We got 00:25:00to go to the hospital." I said, "What's wrong, what's wrong?" He wouldn't tell me. And, he started to give me Charles' coat that was in a brown bag, but he said, "No, you don't need to see this." Because it was just a bloody mess, you know. And when I got over there they had him and he was bleeding so until they had to put a big cradle over him, they couldn't let the sheet come down on him because it was, where they had beat him up, they took him. He said they took sticker briars in those wounds.

They beat him with chains. He had to die with those chain marks on him. And Rev. Smith said, "We'll just burn these clothes up." He stayed in the hospital two weeks. And every time I'd go, I'd just be so mad and everything. But he said, "Well, I'm going to pray for them." And he said that where they took him, you know where Eastwood Mall is, you know? That used to be all wooded area. They 00:26:00used to call it Hammons and 78 Highway. They took him off the job in his truck. Made him lay down in the truck. And when they got him so far this man, I won't call his name, because he's a well know southern preacher, they stayed three houses from me. He rode by my house and he did not tell me.

HUNTLEY: Well, did they actually take him from the job?

BILLUPS: They cut him out, they blocked, when he was coming from the job, they blocked the truck and took him out.

HUNTLEY: Forcibly taken him out?

BILLUPS: Forcibly took him out of this man's truck.

HUNTLEY: And, then the neighbor came on home and he never said anything to you?

BILLUPS: He never said anything. He never said a word. But, anyway, my husband said he prayed and everything.

HUNTLEY: Did you talk with him any time after that?

BILLUPS: Yes, a lot of times.

HUNTLEY: Did he ever say why he did not mention it to you?

BILLUPS: Yes, my husband said he told him that they told him if he said anything they was going to kill him. But he never. Well, he had to ride right by my house, just three doors from me.

HUNTLEY: So that obviously raised a questions?

BILLUPS: Yes. Because he had to tell them what route that they was going to take.

HUNTLEY: Were these men ever apprehended or prosecuted?

BILLUPS: No. They weren't. Because my husband say when they got through beating him up, they said that they were going to kill him because they were trying. Every time they said, "Where you get money, or what you do?" So he would say, "Mr. Gwen." They knew he was a Black man. They was trying to make him say Gwen or, you know, not call him mister. But my husband knew he was older so he always called him Mister. That's one of the reason's he got beat up as bad as he did, 00:28:00because he wouldn't stop saying Mister.

HUNTLEY: This is a Black man that he's saying Mr. to?

BILLUPS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: In that culture it was not acceptable as far as whites were concerned. So he was beaten even more so for referring to Mr. Gwen as Mister.

BILLUPS: Yes, and so, they got together, they whispered they wanted to kill him. But somebody, my husband was a mason and he had his ring on. And he said they had him tied to a tree and everything when one of them happen to get that finger. He believes that's one of the reasons he believe they didn't kill him. Because when they felt that ring, he said they got together, "We ain't going to kill this nigger, just leave him up here." They untied him and they got in their cars and they left. He had to crawl back to 78 Highway out of those woods. When he got down there, two police cars from the city was sitting there.

HUNTLEY: This is out near the place where he was beaten?

BILLUPS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: How did you know to go out there?

BILLUPS: No. They took him to the hospital. In other words, what I was saying, I believe that they knew they were up there. They had to hear him hollering. They were sitting there when he crawled down the road, they just picked him up and said, "Nigger, some more niggers just beat you up. You better not say no white people beat you up."

HUNTLEY: So the police then took him to the hospital?

BILLUPS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And then you and Rev. Smith went to the hospital?

BILLUPS: Right.

HUNTLEY: And he was hospitalized for two weeks?

BILLUPS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Now, as a wife were you upset with the men that had beat him up, or were you upset with your husband for being involved, or what were your feelings?

BILLUPS: I was hating the white people. No. I wasn't upset with my husband, but I was fully angry and hating, full of hate for the white man. And, after he went 00:30:00to the hospital, the Movement, you know they sent people out to stand guard around the house for me and the children, but we couldn't sleep. And, when he got home he told them to just go on and said the Lord was going to take care of us. But you know, while he was in the hospital they called and told me, "When that nigger get out of the hospital, you all best to be out of Alabama by 5:00 or we going to come back and bomb all of y'all." So, through those years, we got several bomb threats. And every time my daddy always kept, it was a little old cab company in Irondale. And daddy always kept it handy because it might be trouble and I would have to uproot myself and my children.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever have to do that? Did you have to leave home as a result of threats?

BILLUPS: Yes. Because I was scared. And the neighbors would say, "Those Billups 00:31:00going to get us bombed, they going to get us killed."

HUNTLEY: So the neighbors then were not supportive?

BILLUPS: Not at all. They ostracized us.

HUNTLEY: So you were more or less isolated?

BILLUPS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Well, what about the people from the Movement? Were they supportive?

BILLUPS: Yes. They were. They were. I'm telling you now they were, but it was so nerve-racking for men to be standing around the house and you thinking that if they left they was going to get you anyway. So Charles just kind of dismissed them. Told them that's all right.

HUNTLEY: Well, I'm sure that on your job, what occupation did you have?

BILLUPS: I'm a Licensed Practical Nurse.

HUNTLEY: You're an LPN. And where did you work?

BILLUPS: University.

HUNTLEY: Was that where he was taken when he was beaten?

BILLUPS: Yes, but I wasn't working there at the time. But that's where he was taken.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember any incidences that may have taken place that resulted 00:32:00from your simply being the wife of Rev. Billups?

BILLUPS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Can you tell me about them?

BILLUPS: I had a supervisor, named Joyce Hilder. She hated, you know.

HUNTLEY: This is a white supervisor?

BILLUPS: That was my white supervisor. And I guess she kept up with all news clippings and everything. Because I was watched wherever, you know, anytime. And, like when time for promotion or anything, I didn't get...

HUNTLEY: Where was this? Where were you working?

BILLUPS: This was University, in the nursery. I worked in University Hospital in the nursery. And I know she made, like you know, you could be charge nurse up on your shift, and there would be people there, I would have to help them be in charge, but she wouldn't name me that, because it would make me have a bigger salary or something like that, but I outgrew that. But the main thing is that 00:33:00the resentment that the doctors gave us. They would come along, you know like when you, at that time, you know I wasn't an RN, I was a licensed. You couldn't get into that until you was about 35. But there was a shortage of nurses. You know they opened up that program and they sent you to Montgomery with the State Board and you passed. But, they would call, say one of the University of Alabama student nurses, Mrs., Miss but we were always "Nurse this" or "Girl" and they were gals for some of them.

HUNTLEY: So they referred to white as Miss or Mrs?

BILLUPS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And referred to Blacks as "Nurse"?

BILLUPS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: I'm very familiar with that. My mother is an LPN also. On your job, as you worked and Rev. Billups was very active, did you ever lose a job or were you 00:34:00ever threatened with loss of job as a result of his activity?

BILLUPS: I've never lost a job. But I was threatened with misusing sick time. Being absent, or being late. Because some nights Charles and them, they would be so involved in the meeting, I was supposed to be at work at 11:00. They watched my time clock. Sometime I'd hit at 11:30. Sometimes ten minutes after. But everyone of those times, and you know if you got as many as 3 to 4 you know, you was called to the office about tardiness. If you called in, you had sick time but you couldn't take it. A lot of times I didn't have a friend that I could leave the baby with, I had to call in sick but you couldn't take it because you was threatened with your job.

And, a lot of times I would be sitting up waiting on him to come and take me to work 11 to 7. I wasn't driving then. And here somebody out and blowing, come to 00:35:00the door, "Mrs. Billups, your husband told us to come bring you to work." I'd get in the car cursing. Excuse the language. I would be so angry.

And they would just laugh at me. Let me tell you this little incident, and, then, I'm going to let you have it, because I'll talk you to death. One time, I was getting ready to go to work. And Charles had got somebody to take me and, then, just before I left, here he come. And I know you know James Bevel, and there were two white persons that was in the Movement, you know how they were, with the Freedom Riders. And there was a Englishman that was a minister, he was white too. I called in. I took all of my linen, took all the towels, I took 00:36:00everything. I was mad with Charles because I hated white people. I took everything out of my house I thought that he could use. Called a cab and went to my daddy. And, that minister he said, "I understand what you're going through." Because he knew that my husband had been in the Movement. And do you know for several years, until he lost contact, he used to write me. He said, "I can understand because the things that you went through, the way he treated you." You know what they did, they laughed at me and they slept on paper.

HUNTLEY: Is that right? So you were determined that you were not going to assist any white person?

BILLUPS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And you were not going to be cooperative at that point?

BILLUPS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And that was based upon what had taken place in your life prior to then?

BILLUPS: Yes. Let me tell you this one incident. You know, at that time, we were going to, we had missions from house to house. And I was down to one of the neighbors at a mission. And they said my husband was at some meeting or 00:37:00something, something had happened. They said he placed his hand on a policeman, they came to arrest him. And when they got there he was there with the children. And, my daughter, the middle daughter, she always (inaudible) "Momma, if they throw my daddy up against that paddy wagon, or if they do something to my daddy, I'm going to scratch them." And they came in to arrest him, some minor thing. And she grabbed one of them by the leg and went to work on his legs.

HUNTLEY: How old was she at the time?

BILLUPS: She was six. But do you know what? (inaudible). She was fighting for her daddy. And they was going, they took him on to jail, but they gave the 00:38:00neighbors chance to come down to the other neighbors house and get me. Because see the neighbors (inaudible) and Charlotte was three years older than them (inaudible).

HUNTLEY: What was the most difficult thing you had to endure as a result of being the wife of Rev. Billups?

BILLUPS: Because we were (inaudible) and we was in the process of remodeling our house. And we had tried several banks for a loan but when they looked his record up, they would not, I mean our house was in the very process. I mean the windows, everything was out.

HUNTLEY: You mean the, this is as a result of a bombing?

BILLUPS: No, no, no. He was remodeling the house, making it larger.

HUNTLEY: Oh, I see.

BILLUPS: The contractors were working and they had assured him that he could get a loan, you know what I'm saying. And we had to put plastic, we had a great big bay window in the front. That window stayed plastic up, all the winter and I had to go to my mothers (inaudible) because when they found out he was civil rights and got his picture and everything, everybody refused to give him a loan. Everything. You know who was instrumental in helping us in getting that job completed, was Virgil Harris, you know of Protective Industrial Insurance. At that time my job was stable, and he let us have enough money to complete that house.

HUNTLEY: So banks would not loan you the money because of the activity he was 00:40:00involved in?

BILLUPS: Because of his activity. Even then, at that time, of course we were going to Chicago then. He had put in for a position for a postman. He passed the test. He did everything. He didn't fight it. Because when it came back they said he had too many jail arrests. He had been arrested 23 times.

HUNTLEY: So he passed the test?

BILLUPS: He passed the test.

HUNTLEY: But they would not allow him because of activity in the Movement?

BILLUPS: No.

HUNTLEY: So these are difficult situations that you had to endure as a result of your involvement?

BILLUPS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: I know that as a wife of a very active individual like that, there were probably times when you said that you wished that he was not involved in the Movement?

BILLUPS: That's right.

HUNTLEY: How often did you feel that way? Did you tell him that?

BILLUPS: Yes. Sometimes I would. And, sometimes I would leave him. I would leave him. But look, and, then, I was, because you see, I was my daddy's baby. And, a lot of times when things got screwed up, you know the telephone being bugged or something like that and we didn't even know. The man would come in and say, "We came in to fix your phone." We were so naive. We did not know they would be on the line and everything. Sometime the telephone started ringing and ring for hours and hours. You'd pick it up and it was still ringing. So, at times like that I would get angry and I would go to my daddy's. And my daddy and I would talk about Charles and I'd say, "Daddy." And he'd say, "Oh, yes. You can come to me anytime." My mother said, "You best to go back home to your husband." But, uh, those were just times that I would, you know, I miss him. I love him.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the demonstrations of 1963? When Dr. King 00:42:00was here and they eventually got children involved? They demonstrated several days consistently.

BILLUPS: That I remember because Bevel and Charles was the ones that mostly would be going to the schools to get the children out. But he wouldn't let Charlotte join. Of course, Charlotte was just like he used to be at one time, in that would fight. She would say, "Now, daddy will do the marching for you." Because Charlotte, my daughter, has never been a calm person. And he felt like if anybody hit her or she was going to hit them back. And that's what they were teaching, non-violence, you know. And he didn't believe she could be non-violent. And, but, now I'll tell you, the one that has hurt the most was my daughter Renee. And she went everywhere with him. When they was marching to the courthouse.

HUNTLEY: She did march?

BILLUPS: Yes, she did.

HUNTLEY: Was she ever arrested?

BILLUPS: No, she was never arrested. And, you know when they were marching from New Pilgrim to the city jail and when they got so far, Bull Conner came out with his dogs, you know and things like that, they was going to get them. And, my husband was the one that said, let's pray. And, when they knelt down and prayed, Bull didn't put the water on them. Now, before, I had a bad fire in my house, I could show you a picture where my husband got bit by the dogs. They stripped his shirt.

HUNTLEY: You have a picture of it?

BILLUPS: It got burned.

HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of the demonstrations?

BILLUPS: Well, no I never. Yes. Well, I wasn't really in the demonstrations, but 00:44:00you know when they went going back across to Selma. Okay. You remember Brown Memorial or Brown Methodist, one of them. He took me and the children. He said, "Come on, baby and go on with me." I said, "No, I'm going to stay out here with my children." Didn't know I was standing out there in trouble. And they were in that church and they were packed. I mean just packed. He tried his best. I said, "No, I'm going to sit out here with the babies."

And do you know that while we was sitting in the car, looked around and see all these white people clad in these sheets and I seen the Ku Klux was out there. And I had to ease Charlotte into the church to tell them that the Ku Klux Klan was walking back and forth. You see, I should have went on in the church with them. Oh, Lord, I could tell you so much. But it's just no need to just keep talking. But they had to come out and get us. They were out there and they was 00:45:00talking about "We going to kill them niggers." I said, "Oh, Charlotte." I laid the babies down on the seat. "Go on and ease in there and tell your daddy the Ku Klux out here."

HUNTLEY: So you sent her?

BILLUPS: I sent her in the church.

HUNTLEY: I know that during that '63 demonstration you were very active and after that, Rev.

Billups then, I guess then he was sent to Chicago with Dr. Martin Luther King?

BILLUPS: Yes, well, Dr. King went there. And my husband went because he said the girls were growing up. And you know, because I had been working for two and a half years and my husband hadn't worked anywhere because he was either with the Movement or he couldn't get work. And he said, "I'm going to let you sit down." We went to Chicago actually, we was still working, he was. But, actually he went to find a better job.

HUNTLEY: He went to find a better job, but he happened to have been there when 00:46:00Martin Luther King came.

BILLUPS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And, then, he became involved in Operation Breadbasket.

BILLUPS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Operation Breadbasket?

BILLUPS: Operation Breadbasket and everything. Now, I'll tell you what I did do. I went to the March on Washington and, then I went, you know when they had the Resurrection City, I went to that. But, we got private planes and I got some pictures in there somewhere.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the March on Washington?

BILLUPS: It was a glorious time. To be there at the Lincoln Memorial and to hear that exhilarating speech that was something else. And that's when I really and truly, really, I was for everything then. Back then my life just got happier then.

HUNTLEY: Let me back up just a bit. During the time that the Movement was meeting, did you attend any of the mass meetings?

BILLUPS: Yes. Are you talking about the Alabama Christian Movement?

HUNTLEY: Yes.

BILLUPS: Oh, my goodness, every Monday night when I wasn't working.

HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what a mass meeting was like?

BILLUPS: ...either with the Movement or he couldn't get work. And he said, I'm going to let you sit down. We went to Chicago and actually, we were still working, he was, but actually he went to find a better job.

HUNTLEY: He went to find a better job, but he happened to have been there when Dr. Martin Luther King came and, then, he became involved.

BILLUPS: Yes, and that Operation Breadbasket and everything. Now, I'll tell you what I did do. I went to the March on Washington. And, then, I went, you know when they had the (inaudible), I went to that. You know, groups, we got private plans and we flew there.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the March on Washington?

BILLUPS: It was a glorious time. To be there (inaudible). To be there at the Lincoln Memorial and to hear that exhilarating speech that was something else. And that's when I really and truly, you know, really, I was for everything then. Back then my life just got happier then.

HUNTLEY: Let me back up just a bit. During the time that the Movement was meeting, did you attend any of the mass meetings?

BILLUPS: Yes. Are you talking about the Alabama Christian Movement?

HUNTLEY: Yes.

BILLUPS: Oh, my goodness, every Monday night when I wasn't working.

HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what a mass meeting was like?

BILLUPS: Yes. There were lots of singing, lots of oratorical speeches, lot of reporters, lots of police and lots of our speakers. Happy times and, then, Dr. King would come then and make a speech after Shuttlesworth and others invited him into Birmingham. Yes, I enjoyed that. That was a rallying time.

HUNTLEY: Someone told me that being at a mass meeting was like being at a revival.

BILLUPS: It was like being at a revival. And, then, when you get on the outside, here's all these folks standing out there. One day, because I vividly remember 00:48:00one night, Charles, the children and I were coming out. Charles, you know, they used to let some of the men out of the movement would stand on the outside to try to keep watch. And the policeman was coming in and some kind of way, accidently, Charles brushed against him or something and they brought the paddy wagon right there to the meeting and threw him up against the paddy wagon.

That was about the third time they had seen him thrown against the paddy wagon. That's the reason why she always said she was going to kill the police. Because they would throw him against that paddy wagon and pat him down and throw him up in the truck.

One time, he was coming to take me to work and they took down...you know how these signs, you know, where you're supposed to stop at a crossing. And, what 00:49:00they did, they took it down. They knew what time he was going to come. They waited on him, they picked at him every night. They somehow or another knocked that sign down and he ran through it.

HUNTLEY: The sign was not up?

BILLUPS: No. You know it was kind of like those signs up in front of my house. You know like "yield?"

HUNTLEY: Right.

BILLUPS: They were thrown down so my husband would go through it and that's the way they would be.

HUNTLEY: What would they do? Were you ever with him?

BILLUPS: No, I never was, because they never let him get home. They'd stop him, keep him down there about two hours and that would throw me two hours late and I'd have to call one of the neighbors or call my daddy to come and carry me to work. And there have been times, like when the Sixteenth Street bombing and my husband was there. At that particular time I was assigned to the fourth floor. They followed me down, because the supervisor or somebody, see my co-workers 00:50:00would tell the supervisors. I mean, even if we got a car, they would get us. But anyway, she came on my floor and she said, "I heard your nigger husband was down in the emergency room. But you better not go off this floor."

HUNTLEY: This is your supervisor?

BILLUPS: My supervisor, Joyce Hilder. And, here my co-workers looking at me, a little bit of scorn.

HUNTLEY: It's difficult even to imagine.

BILLUPS: She said my "nigger husband" so I'm sure those are not your views.

HUNTLEY: What was your reaction?

BILLUPS: You really want to know?

HUNTLEY: Yes.

BILLUPS: Would you really want to know?

HUNTLEY: I really want to know.

BILLUPS: I wish I had a knife or some scissors or something stuck in her back. 00:51:00But I know better now. You know what, when they would, walk around so solemn and they couldn't figure me out. I never talked about my husband. I never, nothing he was doing or anything. Everything they read, they read in the paper or either they heard it over the radio, Channel 6. I don't know whether you could remember, you might be too young. There was an old reporter named Davenport Smith. And, every time my husband was arrested he blared it out on the news. Charles Billups.

HUNTLEY: So then, when you went to Chicago, did you still work as a nurse?

BILLUPS: Yes. I worked for a while, because Charles told me to sit down. For two years I sat down. But I had just gotten a job at St. Luke's to work and I had worked there about two months before he died.

HUNTLEY: And what kind of work did he do?

BILLUPS: My husband? Oh, yes. He worked at a chain of stores they called National Tea Company. And they had a chain of stores all over Illinois, 00:52:00Wisconsin and Iowa. And, they made him, because the man that owned these stores was a multimillionaire. And, he only finished the eighth grade. He was a self-made millionaire, and that's why he fell in love with Charles, because he wanted to do something. He told my husband, he said that when his son finished college, he tried to put him in Harvard University, but because he hadn't graduated and wasn't a member or nothing, he couldn't. And, he's a multimillionaire. He couldn't get his son there. So he made, Charles worked there for about six months, and, then he made him Director of Human Relations. And, that's where he was working when he died. And everybody at the company hated him.

HUNTLEY: Why?

BILLUPS: Because he moved up too fast. And, even the people that (inaudible) I 00:53:00mean, our own Black people, they gave...Mr. (inaudible) gave Charles a watch, a gold watch with his name printed on it. I never went to those meetings at night. But Rene always went with her daddy. She was always afraid something was going to happen to him. He had his own office, everything. But, she went to one particular meeting and he got up and was talking, they were going to transfer some stores up to West side you know that's where (inaudible). And, I will not call the name.

HUNTLEY: You mean your husband got up to talk at a Breadbasket meeting?

BILLUPS: Right.

HUNTLEY: About the movement or putting some stores on the west side...

BILLUPS: Because the stores, there were like Brunos and Food Fair. You know Bruno's moved all their dated, old dated stuff in these stores in the Black 00:54:00neighborhoods and that's what they would be doing. They had given him this gold watch because he had done so well for two years. One of the head Black people in Operation Breadbasket, when he was showing him the watch, because you see my husband was a poor man and he wasn't really used to a lot of stuff, you know. And he was showing him his watch with his name on it. My daughter said they took that watch in that meeting, and this Black man, well known, took his foot.

HUNTLEY: Who was that person?

BILLUPS: I won't call his name. Took his foot and slammed it down. And Renee jumped up. He said, "Baby, you going to get us killed. We got to get out of here." A well-known Black man. Because if I call his name you'll know, and I don't want to do that.

HUNTLEY: So your husband actually had the watch in his hand?

BILLUPS: Oh, just had it, he had just gotten it that day.

HUNTLEY: And he took it and put it on the floor and...

BILLUPS: Yes. And took his foot.

HUNTLEY: What was the reason for him doing that?

BILLUPS: Because they said that because he was making money and saying he was not working for Black people anymore, he was working for the white man and stuff like that.

HUNTLEY: So your husband actually became involved with Dr. King when he came to Chicago and convinced the Movement to go into Cicero?

BILLUPS: Yes. He went to Cicero, got his hand broke. He said, "Baby, they beat our butts in Cicero." He got his hand broke. They throwed a brick. He caught it. That hand stayed in a cast about six to nine weeks. He said, "They beat us in Cicero." Of course, I wasn't with them there in Cicero, I was at home with the children.

HUNTLEY: So your husband, after he moved to Chicago, he became again well known 00:56:00as a result of his activity there?

BILLUPS: Right.

HUNTLEY: But he also had a job and he was well known on the job?

BILLUPS: Right.

HUNTLEY: He was liked on the job by the owner of the company, but he was disliked by the..

BILLUPS: By the people, whites and Blacks that were working there.

HUNTLEY: Because he had moved up in the company rather fast?

BILLUPS: Right.

HUNTLEY: And, then, what happened?

BILLUPS: He had an expense account and he could do anything with that money that he wanted. The fact is we bought cars, Charles didn't know how to fix cars, so we bought cars every year. I mean he ordered a car every year in October. And, the last car we bought was in, that car was five years old when he died. And, 00:57:00when he parked the car, he had his own parking space there, because he had his own office. And, it just so happened that one of the men, and he was a Jew. One of the men, he didn't know this man's car. He didn't know he had a car. When he parked his car, now the other employees told him, you know that man's stealing your car.

HUNTLEY: The Jewish man.

BILLUPS: Yes. Yes.

HUNTLEY: Well, how did your husband die?

BILLUPS: Well, we don't know. He was shot, but I don't know.

HUNTLEY: He was shot?

BILLUPS: No details. The police say they couldn't find anything.

BILLUPS: He was coming from work.

HUNTLEY: He was shot?

BILLUPS: Yes. He was shot.

HUNTLEY: Where was he found?

BILLUPS: He was found in his car. All identification and everything was taken off him. No identification. The only way they found me is that they went under 00:58:00the hood and found that he had bought his car at Hyde Park Chevrolet and, they went from the motor number. And, the children were just coming in from school. When they did the autopsy they said it looks like whenever he was shot, it was right after he had had lunch. Because he had had in his stomach, something like a hamburger, Coca Cola. And, you know, your food digests.

It takes about 4-6 hours for your food to digest. So his food hadn't even digested. They believe maybe that he was shot on company property and put in this particular place. But they never, they came, the detectives. Some Black detective that got to be a real good friend of mine, he come and look all over the house because he said "You know when I told you I want to see all of your 00:59:00books and encyclopedias?" He said, "Do you know what I was looking for?" He said, "I was looking for some blood." He said, "Because you and your daughter killed him."

HUNTLEY: He had suggested that you and your daughter had...

BILLUPS: Me and my daughter had killed him. And look, neither one of us, all of us started to driving after my husband was dead. None of us could even drive a car.

HUNTLEY: So then it appeared that someone had robbed him?

BILLUPS: Yes. They took everything off him. We had just left Birmingham. We had a sticker from the New Pilgrim credit union, and he had drawn out all of his money from the credit union. And he had my income tax check, mine and his together. And, he had Charlotte's because Charlotte was working. Three checks on him. They did not, they have not ever. I had to go to the morgue to identify the 01:00:00body. And they had an inquest and they claimed they couldn't find no glasses, no shoes, no socks. There was no blood in the car.

HUNTLEY: But he had been shot? And there was no blood in the car?

BILLUPS: He had been shot five times in the chest and the bullets, two or three came through his back. They turned him over, back and forth to let me look at him. Rev. Evans, that's another one that I would like to include. Rev. Clay Evans was our pastor and he's the one that took care of us, because we were there for about another year.

HUNTLEY: You said he didn't have on shoes or socks?

BILLUPS: He had on his socks and, of course they had to take him to the hospital to do the autopsy.

He had nothing but his socks.

HUNTLEY: That's obviously a very devastating story. If you would look back, in the days that you were in Birmingham and if you had the potential of changing what took place, say between the time that you were married and 1963, what would you change?

BILLUPS: The big thing is the education of young people. Taking them higher. 01:02:00Reap some of the benefits that these men suffered for. Men and women. I wish things like that. More religious, more getting together by Black people. Because, you know, we are still far apart. And do you realize now, my husband never got a chance to see any one of his grandchildren. I have a grandson that's 17, I have a grandson that's 15. I have a granddaughter that's 16. And, I have another granddaughter that goes to the University of Alabama that's 25. She's been to Venezuela and she works at Books-A-Million and goes to school and she's got three more months and she would have finished. She speaks Latin, very well. And, I had wanted her to be here today but she had to work. I wanted her to be here because she's in Black history studies. That's one of her main things.

HUNTLEY: Where is she in school?

BILLUPS: At the University of Alabama. She says she wants to go to Florida A&M to get her masters if she can, because she wants to get more Black stuff. She's always interviewing me and I'm going to take her back to the old town soon. That's what she's into.

HUNTLEY: Then, would you, if you could, would you limit your husband's involvement if you could go back in time?

BILLUPS: Not a thing. I wouldn't change nothing. I'm just as proud of him as I can be. Even though there were times when I wished I had a stick to beat him,(laughter...), but my husband was a hustler. My husband one time talked Adamson Ford out of a brand new car and didn't even have a job. Came home shaking the keys.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

BILLUPS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: I see you're very proud of him. Let me ask you. Anything else that we have not touched on that you would like to include on this tape that's related 01:04:00to the Movement or to your family?

BILLUPS: Well, to my family, to my mother and father who were very supportive. They loved my husband and they are gone on, and they're a memory. And the same year that my husband died, my mother, my father died the next year, one month apart. My brother died the next year. For five years I was going to Davenport & Harris getting people ready. I just hope that wherever he is, his spirit, that he can look down and see his grandchildren and even look down at me, even with my back, my 70 year old self and he'll just look back and see that we are happy. 01:05:00If there was anything I could change, yes, maybe I could change the way people used to look on him, because they called him millionnaire, ugly, (inaudible) at the mouth. If I could change some of that. I have seen him cry. I have seen him happy.

And, for awhile he was going on this thing about his father. He didn't know who his father was. He had a bad childhood. And there was a minister that his mother used to quote, a Rev. Robert Alford. He's dead now. He used to pastor old Sardis. And she told him that was his father and he got in a group of boys. He was about 10 or 11 years and he asked Robert Alford was he his daddy? He said, "Yes, son, I'm your father." And that made him feel good. But one of his main things, he had a (inaudible) biggest people, every place he was kind of scorned. 01:06:00And he was just beginning. When our first baby was born and to me she was the ugliest thing that you could see. She was so ugly, he bought five outfits to the hospital. He said, "Now, whichever one she look the best in." He was just that proud of his children. I wish they could have seen their grandfather.

HUNTLEY: Well, I'm sure that all of them are very proud of you.

BILLUPS: I tell you what. It's been a struggle. I have tried to hold on. My husband left me in a house, I never stayed in an apartment or project. He always had a house for me. And I been struggling around and (inaudible) if I live long enough, I will at least be able to leave this house, paid for, to my children.

HUNTLEY: Well, you have been a strength. Not just for your children and family but for a lot of people in the community. So I would just like to thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to sit with us today.

BILLUPS: Thank you for listening to me. You know what? When this thing first started, it hurt me so bad because they never asked me (inaudible). But nobody at the Institute or anywhere else has ever asked me about my feelings. So I appreciate you coming.

HUNTLEY: Well, thank you for having me.

BILLUPS: I hope I have something good.

HUNTLEY: You have said an awful lot.

BILLUPS: But, now let me just end this by saying, "Wherever you are, Charles, I love you. Whatever may have gone on, whatever anybody has ever said, whatever, I love you. I still love you." I never married. I could have married. I never married. I don't think I could have found anybody else. I didn't want to marry. I had my children. I took care of them. And, I have a daughter in North Carolina 01:08:00and I got one that lives in Bush Blvd and this daughter that is ill and stays with me.

HUNTLEY: History will look at you as being one of those heroines of Birmingham, because all that you've endured, you and your family have endured an awful lot, and we as a community appreciate what you've done for all of us.