1
20
102
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/3b3f5ae2a04296a1566c78daa18f4aaa.jpg
6ba445a1f5499c9ba66221c86d75bb7b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Horace Huntley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Washington Booker III
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=WBookerIII1995.xml
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 January 5, 1995 Washington Booker III Interviewed on January 5, 1995 19950105B 1:10:06 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Emily Reynolds Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Alabama Black Liberation Front Washington Booker III Horace Huntley Video 1:|4(9)|20(7)|30(3)|53(10)|66(8)|77(1)|90(6)|101(10)|120(6)|141(7)|155(7)|174(4)|185(3)|199(1)|211(12)|228(14)|244(8)|257(5)|267(15)|281(13)|294(2)|306(17)|319(4)|330(9)|346(3)|359(3)|379(5)|390(7)|403(14)|423(8)|440(14)|450(9)|463(2)|479(11)|496(11)|509(11)|525(4)|542(15)|559(5)|576(4)|587(7)|600(13)|614(9)|630(4)|641(1)|653(7)|659(10)|668(3)|692(7)|712(9)|730(2)|744(13)|752(3)|765(10)|779(3)|789(14)|801(7)|812(3)|823(13)|839(8)|851(10)|863(15)|877(9)|886(14)|896(9)|909(12)|920(12)|931(14)|941(13) 0 https://youtu.be/vFjbjMbJOHU YouTube video English 25 Interview Introduction This is an interview with Washington Booker III for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's oral history project done by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College, January 5, 1995. Interview introduction with Washington Booker, III 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ The homepage of the BCRI 62 Family History Let me just ask you, first of all, though, where were your parents from? What part of the state? Booker describes his immediate family as well as family history. African American families ; African Americans--Genealogy ; African Americans--History African American families 489 Education and High School Experience Tell me more about your education. Booker comments on his high school education. African Americans--Education (Secondary) African Americans--Education 575 Joining the Military What did you do after you left? I did the all-American thing. I joined the Marine Corps. Booker discusses joining the U.S. Marine Corps. United States. Marine Corps ; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--African Americans Armed Forces--African Americans 657 Early Encounters with Demonstrations Well prior to that, Wash, you were at Ullman during the demonstrations of 1963. Booker describes his early observations of and engagement with Civil Rights Movement demonstrations in Birmingham. African Americans--Southern States ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement African Americans--Civil rights 831 Childhood Neighborhood & ; Community Let me ask you Wash, I sort of jumped the gun. What community were you living in? Booker describes his neighborhood and community in Birmingham. African American neighborhoods ; African Americans--Housing Birmingham (Ala.) 1260 Home and Family Life How did your life change as a child when you left that area and moved to Loveman's Village? Booker describes his home in Loveman's Village in Birmingham. African American families ; African Americans--Southern States ; Birmingham (Ala.) African Americans--Housing 1481 Community and Police As a child growing up, Wash, what was your community's relationship to the Birmingham police department? Booker describes his community's relationship with and perspectives on the local police. African Americans--Crimes against ; African Americans--Southern States ; Police brutality--United States Police--United States--History 1605 Community Organizations In your community were there community organizations? Booker discusses social organizations available to his childhood community. African American churches ; African Americans--Religion ; Birmingham County Boy Scouts Association ; Bowling alleys ; Boy Scouts African Americans--Social life and customs 1837 Civil Rights Movement Involvement Let me ask you now about the Civil Rights Movement. I know you were involved. How did you get involved? Booker discusses his involvement in the Civil Rights Movement. African Americans--Civil rights ; African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Segregation--United States Civil rights movement 2146 Arrest and Jail Experience What were the circumstances when you went to jail? Booker describes his experience of going to jail during a Civil Rights Movement demonstration. African American youth ; African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; African Americans--Southern States ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement ; Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.) African Americans--Civil rights 2911 Family/Community Response to Movement Were there other members of your family involved? Booker describes his family and community's response to the Civil Rights Movement, and his perspective on the beneficial results of the Movement. African American families ; African Americans--Race identity ; Civil rights movement African Americans--Civil rights 3043 Returning from Marine Corps and Vietnam Service After the Movement, Wash, you then volunteered and went into the Marine Corps? Booker describes his experience returning to the U.S. after serving in Vietnam with the Marine Corps. African Americans--Race identity ; African Americans--Social conditions ; African Americans--Southern States ; Police brutality--United States ; Vietnam War, 1961-1975 African Americans--Race identity ; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--African Americans 3402 Alabama Black Liberation Front These other fellows, were they Vietnam veterans as well? Booker discusses the founding and actions of the Alabama Black Liberation Front. African American children--Education ; African American children--Nutrition ; African Americans--Crimes against ; Black Liberation Army ; Black Panther Party African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States 3996 Interview Conclusion and Parting Thoughts Well, Wash, I think we can probably conclude. Is there anything else that you would like to add just to highlight or maybe encapsulate what Birmingham has meant to you in the years that you've spent here? Booker shares his thoughts on Birmingham and its relationship with the African American community. African Americans--Southern States ; Birmingham (Ala.) African Americans--Race identity Oral History Washington Booker III discusses growing up in Loveman's Village, getting involved in the Movement, serving in the Marine Corps and the founding of the Alabama Black Liberation Front. HUNTLEY: Welcome, Mr. Washington Booker. Wash, what we are doing, we are attempting to really write the history of Birmingham through the eyes of people who have lived and grown up here. And, of course, you have been instrumental in the development of Birmingham and I just wanted to ask you a few questions. Let me just ask you, first of all, though, where were your parents from? What part of the state? BOOKER: Marengo County. HUNTLEY: Both were from Marengo County. BOOKER: My mother and my father both were from Marengo County. The parents on my father' ; s side, my grandfather' ; s father, came from Hale County. It appears that they came there after slavery. He had seven sons. My grandfather was the seventh. He came to Marengo County and he met my grandmother on my father' ; s side. She was originally from Bessemer. HUNTLEY: She was originally from Bessemer and then moved to Marengo County? BOOKER: Right. Her mother was having difficulties, respiratory difficulties, obviously from the industrial pollution and the doctor told my great-grandfather, my grandmother' ; s father, that if he wanted her to get rid of her problems and, possibly, live longer, that they should move from the city. He bought some land in Marengo County and eventually gave his daughters and sons a piece of land. My grandmother and my grandfather met, not on my father' ; s side, were married there. And my father met my mother there. My mother' ; s people appear to go back in Marengo County, as best as we have been able to tell at this point. The oldest, the great-great patriarch, is Lincoln Bell, whose children had children that had children. My mother is third generation from Lincoln Bell because her mother was his grand. Anyway they come from Marengo County. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Marengo County? BOOKER: Yes, I was born in Marengo County. HUNTLEY: How old were you when you came to Birmingham? BOOKER: I came to Birmingham when I was four. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? BOOKER: I have one sister. She' ; s older. HUNTLEY: You don' ; t want to say how much older? BOOKER: Yes, she' ; s two years older than me, and I was born in 1949. I was a post-war baby. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your parents' ; education. BOOKER: My father finished high school and joined the Navy. He is a well-read man. He loves books and he loves to read and listens to tapes and anything that can give him information. He has a high school diploma, but he is fairly well read which makes him educated beyond those years. My mother went to Alabama State on a choir scholarship and was there for two years. HUNTLEY: What were their occupations? BOOKER: My father worked in the plant and retired from the plant. HUNTLEY: What plant? BOOKER: In Demopolis. They pressed plywood. It was a plywood factory. At an earlier age I think he worked about ten years delivering for a store in downtown Demopolis. It was the top of the line store in Demopolis. It was called Floshins or Frozens, or something like that. I think they were Jewish, but they ran " ; the" ; store. He delivered packages for them. HUNTLEY: What about your mother? BOOKER: My mother was an orthodontist assistant. She worked for Dr. Farmer on the southside starting in the late 50' ; s. Before then she worked over the mountain. She caught the bus and went to the White folks' ; house. Eventually, she got on doing that kind of work and she liked it. She left there in the mid-sixties, walked out, I think. It appears it was around the time, not too long after, maybe about 1964, 1965 when they asked her to do the windows. HUNTLEY: She didn' ; t do windows? BOOKER: No, she left and had a quarter ($0.25), and I think the bus cost fifteen cents ($0.15), but she walked out. But she had such a reputation for doing good work that she was hired by Dr. Westbrook, who was in the City Federal Building for fifty years, and she worked for him for twenty-five years. HUNTLEY: Did your mother ever take you to work with her when you were younger? Can you remember any of those times? BOOKER: Eventually, when you work with people for twenty years, you become a unit. I won' ; t say family, but it' ; s similar to family in that you develop certain casual relationships. They would visit us. We would go visit them at Christmas time. We would go to Central Park. One of her co-workers lived in Central Park, which was all White then, and I remember one lady that lived out in, not Crestline--out like you' ; re going out [Highway] 280, and you go under the bridge out there, back out towards the water works, but not quite that far. And, we would go visit. I' ; d go to the office. They knew me. They kept up with how I was doing, where I was going to school, when I was in the service. We kept up with their kids. It was one of those kind of places. He obviously did a good job, now that I think about it, of creating a good work atmosphere, because they all seemed more like family there. Of course, she was the only colored there. HUNTLEY: Tell me more about your education? BOOKER: I got a G.E.D. [General Equivalency Diploma]. HUNTLEY: But you attended Ullman High School? BOOKER: Yes, yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell us a little bit about Ullman High School? BOOKER: Ullman was located on the Southside. It is now part of UAB' ; s urban renewal or some other term. There was a community there. It was a Black community on the Southside. The school had been there a long time and they just came in and just took it, no discussion, no nothing. ' ; We' ; re gonna' ; close it down. Y' ; all got to go.' ; Ullman was a good school. A lot of our students went on and went on to college. They were well prepared. It was a good institution. People came out from the Southside. People came out of Titusville and went to Ullman. We had the best football time, the best basketball team in the city. We used to beat Wenonah [High School] on a consistent basis. It was a good school. HUNTLEY: And you didn' ; t graduate from Ullman? BOOKER: No, I was asked to leave. HUNTLEY: Why were you asked to leave? BOOKER: I was just so far above the rest of the students they felt like I shouldn' ; t finish. They felt I was so grown, that I should just go on out in the world. HUNTLEY: What did you do after you left? BOOKER: I did the all-American thing. I joined the Marine Corps. It was 1967. September 7th I went into the Marine Corps and went to Vietnam. HUNTLEY: What were you in the military? Were you in the supply squadron? BOOKER: Nope. I was in an infantry unit, First Battalion, Third Marines Bravo Company. I' ; d like to say that we ran the welcome center between North and South Vietnam. Our area of operation was along the border between North and South Vietnam. We patrolled that area that became famous as Asho Valley, up and down the Ho Chi Min Trail, Kantian, along the ridge-line that runs right inside of South Vietnam. Mother' ; s Ridge all the way out to the South China Sea and Kuaviet River, the sand dunes. All of that was our area of responsibility. We ran patrols, search and destroy patrols. We looked for enemy units moving in and through the area and closed in and destroyed. HUNTLEY: So you are a combat veteran? BOOKER: I' ; m a combat veteran. HUNTLEY: Well prior to that, Wash, you were at Ullman during the demonstrations of 1963. BOOKER: Yeah. HUNTLEY: Were you one of those that decided that you were going to stay in classes and you were not going to participate? BOOKER: No. We had-- My friends and I had gone down to observe what was going on downtown and had thrown rocks and ran. I remember the first day that I went to it, the march was starting from, I think it was, St. Joseph [Church]. It was all the way down on Sixth Avenue. The power company has that property now. But there was a church down there that the demonstrations left out of. At this time that' ; s where they were going on. HUNTLEY: Was that Sixth Avenue Baptist Church? BOOKER: Yes, it was Sixth Avenue North. The church was St. Joseph on Sixth Avenue North, where the power company has the property now. It' ; s where the railroad track goes across. I don' ; t know what street it is. I think it' ; s about Tenth Street, maybe Tenth or Eleventh Street, but that' ; s where the church was. And we were standing across the street facing north and the steps came out of the church and the church faced south and the people were coming out of the church and the police was meeting them in the streets. So, some people behind us threw some bottles and some bricks. They saw where it came from and they rushed into the crowd. And when they rushed into the crowd, I just fell. I fell in front of one of the police officers and he fell over me, and the brother got up. He ran and got away. And so, when I went home that day, I felt like I had really, really done something--that I had aided and abetted a fellow revolutionary. But, that was the first day. After that, we kind of kept up with it, but, to us, it was hard to come to grips with...we didn' ; t go to jail when the call out to fill the jails up with the children. We did not go at first because we had run-ins with the police on a daily basis. We knew them to be torturers, murderers, masochists, and the idea of voluntarily submitting yourself to be taken away with them was just to us-- We couldn' ; t-- It took us a while to get used to it, even though we finally decided we would go, and we went and we all got arrested and that kind of thing and went to jail. HUNTLEY: Let me ask you Wash, I sort of jumped the gun. What community were you living in? BOOKER: I grew up in Loveman' ; s Village. When we first came to Birmingham I lived on Seventh Avenue North, two doors up from Pooles Funeral Home. Pooles was on one corner. Bradford was on the other corner. Mary Strong' ; s house was right across from us. We stayed in a two-story tenement house. We had one room and my mother and my sister slept in the big bed and I slept in the roll-a-way bed and there was a common kitchen and the people had rooms in the two-story house. We stayed there until 1959. In 1959 we moved to Loveman' ; s Village where we had hot and cold running water, a bathtub and a thermostat. We moved up in the world. We moved to Loveman' ; s Village and from ' ; 59 on until I eventually went into the Marine Corps, I lived in Loveman' ; s Village. HUNTLEY: How would you describe your community? Can you describe both communities--the community that you moved away from and then describe Loveman' ; s Village? BOOKER: [House number] 1511 Seventh Avenue North. It was downtown for the most part. It was a short walk. If you walked up to the corner to where Bradford Funeral Home was, took a right, walked down a block, you would be standing on the corner of Sixth Avenue and Sixteenth Street and facing across the park. And everybody who came out of Smithfield or came up Seventh Avenue came up Eighth Avenue would come down and go across the park. HUNTLEY: Kelly Ingram Park? BOOKER: Kelly Ingram Park. The park. Like there' ; s only one. Across from Kelly Ingram Park, and so I was about a block and a half from Kelly Ingram Park. The street had-- There was Poole' ; s starting on the corner of Fifteenth Street. On the corner of Fifteenth Street and Seventh Avenue there was Poole' ; s Funeral Home. John and Earnest Poole. Their father was starting to get old at that time and they were grown men and they were running the funeral home. People like Audrey Bushelon, who now runs Bushelon Funeral Home, was working for the Poole family. As a matter of fact, if you go down another block, down to the corner of Fourteenth Street and Sixth Avenue, there were houses on the south side of the street, all the way down, and we knew people who lived in those houses. And on the right side of the street, the church was on the corner right where it is now, except it was a different building, a different church. If you go farther down on Seventh Avenue, farther west on Seventh Avenue, there was the Ballot house that was owned by Ma Perkins, who also owned the Zanzibar Hotel which was right next to my house which is where the Birmingham Black Barons lived when they were in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: So you were in the heart of a lot of activity. BOOKER: Right. Mr. Parker' ; s building was up on the other corner. There were Black businesses on both corners on the south side of Seventh Avenue, but on the north side of Seventh Avenue, Vincent' ; s Grocery Store was on one corner, which was an Italian business, and Fagin' ; s Grocery Store was on the other corner, which was another Italian business. And right across Sixteenth Street, on the Northeast corner, there was a coal yard. But, Ragland Drugs, after the Ballot House, going back down from Fifteenth Street, back west on Seventh Avenue, Ma Perkins' ; Ballard House and there were some other houses. Then there was Ragland' ; s Drugs which was owned, I believe, by two brothers. But, if you were really, really, good at church on Sunday, and momma had some extra money and after you took your church clothes off and if everything was just right, we would walk down to Ragland' ; s sometime and get a scoop of ice cream, hand-packed ice cream. And that was the high point of my life. I' ; ll always remember that. But, anyway, coming back up to the corner of Fifteenth Street, there was Poole' ; s Funeral Home, and Mr. and Mrs. King' ; s home. They had a couple of girls and a son. As a matter of fact, their son still lives in Birmingham, Dan King. He' ; s an accountant or something and I think he still lives in Smithfield. He' ; s older now, but his mother and father lived in the next house. Our house was the next house. Our house was a tenement house. My two cousins-- One of my cousins, Lucy, she ran a stand in the yard, a small stand that sold drinks and sodas and stockings and pork and beans and stuff like that. My cousin, Annie, we called her Nannie, she was the landlady of the tenement house and they had the front room and we all-- People had rooms in the house. Next to that was the Zanzibar Hotel, which was owned by Ma Perkins who also owned the Ballot House and I think she also owned the Zanzibar Café, which was on Fourth Avenue. But anyway, the Barons, the Birmingham Black Barons, lived there and I would go to the store for them. I' ; d go over to Vincent' ; s for them, or go over to Fagin' ; s for them, get sodas and stuff like that for them and they would give me balls, old bats, little bitty bats and that kind of thing. Sometimes, they would put me on the bus and take me out to Rickwood Field and I' ; d sit in the dugout. I didn' ; t know then that I was with a part of history, the old Negro League, short stops and all of that. HUNTLEY: What kind of recreation did you have as a child in that area? BOOKER: On Seventh Avenue we had a wagon. Joyce Smith had a bicycle. Joyce Smith' ; s house was next to Bradford' ; s and I think she was some kin to the Bradfords. But those two houses are the only two houses left on Seventh Avenue now in that block. But she had a bicycle. We had a wagon. We got skates at Christmas--Union Hardware iron skates--and we could skate up and down the street. When that wore out, we would take an old broom and turn it upside down and that would be our horse. And, we would get a coat hanger and make a cowboy gun. I know you know how to make one. But, anyway, we would play and we would go in the back yard. And the back yard ran all the way back to the alley. Those were big lots. There was a couple of fruit trees in the backyard and then another fence. We would play back there, play cowboys and Indians and climb trees. HUNTLEY: How did you your life change when you left that area and moved to Loveman' ; s Village? BOOKER: It changed. It was a subtle change. My perception of the change was subtle and it went back and forth. It appeared to be...Initially, when we moved to Loveman' ; s Village, one of the biggest arguments my sister and I ever had was over who was going to be the first one that took a bath in the bathtub, alright. Because we had a Number Ten tub that we boiled water, poured into the tub and then put cold water in the tub and that' ; s what we took a bath in, because there was no such thing as hot water in the house. The bathroom was a room a little bigger than a closet. It had a commode that sat right in the middle of the floor and there was no light in. There was just the commode in the middle of the floor, nothing else in there. There was one sink in the house and it was, of course, on the other side of the wall from the bathroom, all the way to the back of the house. So, plus, there was a coal stove in the house. My mom would get up in the morning and make the fire in the stove and get back in the bed until the room got warm. Moving to Loveman' ; s Village, there was a bathtub. It had hot and cold running water. There was a heater, a gas heater, with a thermostat that came on whenever it got cold. There was no light that would come in. If you closed all the doors and turned off all the lights, you couldn' ; t see light coming in from the outside around the windows and through the closets. You could go in the closets in the old house on Seventh Avenue and close your door and you could see light coming in from the outside, because it wasn' ; t insulated. And Loveman' ; s Village was brick, and it was warm and it was well lit. We had moved up in the world. Of course, now, once we went to school... I think we moved in maybe July, August or something like that, and school hadn' ; t started, so we were on vacation. And so we were all wonderful until we went to school and the other kids informed us that we lived in the projects. HUNTLEY: So then you then realized that, although you were better off, you still had not made it? You still were not middle class? BOOKER: Right, we had gone and you get flashes as a child, of what the other world is like. Because for a child, you know the world is the block that you live on or the space that you are limited to. You know that there is something around the corner, but only your imagination tells you what it is around there. But, before we moved to Loveman' ; s Village, there would be times when we would go riding with somebody we knew that had a car that would take us for a ride during the Christmas season. And maybe, we would ride over through Titusville or maybe we would ride over to Mountain Brook and look at the lights and that kind of thing, and so we knew that there was something better than the house that we lived in. HUNTLEY: As a child growing up, Wash, what was your community' ; s relationship to the Birmingham police department? BOOKER: Birmingham Police Department was the occupying force in our community. It was the source of the ultimate terror. People would threaten their children by telling them, ' ; The police gonna get you.' ; HUNTLEY: What do you mean by an ' ; occupying force' ; ? BOOKER: Vietnam, we were like the policemen trying to run the bogeymen out the country. The Viet Cong were painted as the bogeymen and we were the good guys from the west, come in to save the poor ignorant savages from the bogeymen. Of course, the savages really didn' ; t want to be saved. They looked at me like we were barbarians coming in from the west. But in our relationship with the police, the police were much the same way. There was no communication other than, ' ; Come here nigger,' ; or a lick up side the head or to shoot. There was no human communications. There was no talking, none of that. They terrorized the community. It was a rare weekend passed that one or two folk, maybe, didn' ; t get killed by the police. They' ; d call you. This is what they' ; d do to you: They' ; d call you and make you stick your head in the window, right, and then they would roll the window up and get your neck like this, all the while calling you ' ; boy' ; and ' ; Nigger, where you going, nigger?' ; And, then, they' ; d hit you on your head. You were lucky if that was all you got away with. You know, they' ; d beat people to death. HUNTLEY: People were afraid of the police? BOOKER: They were terrified. People were terrified of the police. HUNTLEY: We' ; re going to get back to that when we start a little bit more about the Movement, but let me just ask you, in your community, were there community organizations? BOOKER: Yes. HUNTLEY: What were some of those organizations? BOOKER: There were clubs, the Y [YMCA or Young Men' ; s Christian Association]. There was the Boy Scouts. Every church--and almost everybody went to church, almost everybody went to church--like it was unheard of-- Somebody would go [say] if you don' ; t go to church, ' ; The devil going to get him. He going to hell.' ; What you would call the ' ; baddest' ; kids at the school, they went to church. It was really, really an exception to find a family in the Black community that didn' ; t go to church. But anyway, the church had ushers, matrons, youth programs, that kind of thing. There was the Boy Scouts. We had a Boy Scout Troop in Loveman' ; s Village. We had the Y. I was lucky enough a few years ago to go to a Y camp, because they had slots for poor kids and so I could get in one of those slots and I' ; d get a chance to go out to Camp Fletcher and played with the kids whose parents had paid to send them out there. But, anyway, it was a good experience, and I' ; m thankful for it There was all kind of organizations. There were singing groups. There used to be a thing in the Black community, in the [19]50s that-- When I was a kid, as a matter of fact, my mother sang with the Gospel Harmonettes, which was a gospel group. Churches would be packed on Sunday night because one of those groups would be coming to town, or one of the small auditoriums or the Masonic Temple and other places where they would have concerts. Then there were social and savings clubs. Later on, after Honeybowl was built and Starbowl was built, it was really two Black bowling alleys. For a while everybody bowled. That was the thing in Birmingham. If you were anybody in Birmingham, you went to the bowling alley and people formed bowling clubs and a lot of Black folks still bowl today. But, other organizations, oh, in the schools, the clubs like the ushers. HUNTLEY: Which one were you involved with? BOOKER: We had a club. Our club was called the Coachmen. We would, all of us would just kind of get together. Figured everybody else had a club, so we had a club of our own. HUNTLEY: What did you do in the club? BOOKER: We had parties and we went to other people' ; s parties, and we all wore the same T-shirts or something. HUNTLEY: Today, wouldn' ; t that be called a gang? BOOKER: No, no. We didn' ; t sell dope and do drive-bys. We weren' ; t really that tough in that, you know. You always had a few people who are going to fight or else, and they were gangs. They weren' ; t called gangs, but there was always a group of fellows that hung together that carried pocket knives and were always looking to jump on somebody. They would go to another side of town or go to a party for the express purpose of getting into a fight and cutting somebody. Yeah, there were folk out there like that. They were in the minority. HUNTLEY: These were social clubs? BOOKER: These were social clubs, Gamma Phi. HUNTLEY: Met on Sunday evenings at somebody' ; s home. BOOKER: Yeah, it was just something to do and we... Like I said, we would sponsor bus trips to Atlanta to go over to the big park and spend the day over there and go to the dance hall. HUNTLEY: Let me ask you now about the Civil Rights Movement. I know you were involved. How did you get involved? BOOKER: I knew that what was going on downtown, the demonstrations, the sit ins, I felt good about it. I felt like Black folk was standing up. You know I grew up with Step-n-Fetch It. I grew up with Tarzan movies. I grew up with Amos ' ; n Andy, where the only Black folk who were really on TV then were buffoons or lackeys or cowards. HUNTLEY: So you saw a relationship to the Movement? BOOKER: It was courage. It was courage. It was Black people standing up saying that, you know, ' ; I' ; m a human being, I have a right to go and to be treated like a human being,' ; even more so than the jobs. As a child, not understanding the demands for-- Or to be a clerk at Newberry' ; s and that kind of thing-- I understood access to public facilities, because I went down to Newberry' ; s and I would have to walk by and look at the White people sitting at the counter eating a banana split and, I swear to God, I was going to get me one. More than anything else I wanted a banana split behind that counter, because they looked so good. But you couldn' ; t go back there. You had to go over to the other side, go down into the basement and stand up at this--this almost white counter that was just as basic as it could possibly be. You could get a hot dog, maybe a hamburger. I don' ; t know. You couldn' ; t get all the things you could get upstairs at the lunch counter. And so, I felt we wanted to go there. As a child, I wanted to go there, because I saw the White kids go there. But, even more than that, it was the thought that Black people was standing up, that they were showing courage. I felt strongly-- I felt as though I had never seen a Black man talk or speak with defiance or self assurance to a White man. Not in real life. If a White man walked up, he could be twenty years old, and there could be Black folks sitting around who were sixty years old and you couldn' ; t miss the skinning and a-grinning, because that' ; s what they had to do to survive. HUNTLEY: And you saw the Movement was changing the whole thing? BOOKER: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah! HUNTLEY: Did you attend any of the mass meetings? BOOKER: Yeah, I went to the churches and sat inside. They would ask you put your pocketknife in there... and they made speeches and that kind of thing. For the most part, we would go in and we would be kind of circulating around seeing who we could see...see folks from the other side of town talking. We knew what we were going to do, and we just-- To be honest, we just really weren' ; t into the speeches. You know, we all wanted to see Martin Luther King. Once we saw him that was cool. Now, who else you see? Do you see anybody over there that looked good? Where they from? They outside? You know, it was that kind of thing. Not to say we were not serious. We were very serious about what we had to do, but we were just prepared to do it when it came time and we really did not need to be pumped. We were ready to go. HUNTLEY: So in [19]63, Wash, you were probably fourteen [years old]? BOOKER: Fourteen, yeah. HUNTLEY: So, you and your partners were ready? How would you then describe a typical mass meeting that you remember? BOOKER: Praying and singing. They would be calling it to order. Most of the time, when we got there, when we would get there, it would already be started up. Because we would kind of be walking and talking and moseying along and somebody may not have been able to get out. So, you know, when you' ; d get there, they would do the devotion, I guess. But, mostly I remember, the day I went to jail. If you ask me who spoke, who were the speakers on that particular day, I could not tell you. My mind was already outside in the streets. I think everybody else was thinking about what we were about to do. But the programs were mostly for the adults. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances when you went to jail? BOOKER: We came out of the church. First we went in. Okay, got down there that day. We knew it was going to be a good day, because when we started off, we left Ullman [High School] and we came on-- It was a Monday. We left Ullman and we came on downtown. And the group, I guess it was about fifty or sixty of us, it may have been more than that, because it was kind of strung out and we came down the railroad track and after we got off the railroad track, we came up and came down First Avenue and turned left onto Sixteenth Street, which means we turned north and as we came up the little hill right there where Etheridge Brothers is now and the service station, as we got up to the top of that little rise, we could see all the way up Sixteenth Street, down to about 8th Avenue and we could see just a whole bunch of folk coming. We figured that they were coming from north Birmingham or coming from Carver [High School] or something like that. So we started running. Something just went through the crowd, because we coming for business. We coming to face the police, to face the dogs, to do whatever we had to do. HUNTLEY: You know, Wash, prior to that time, I can remember that if you' ; d go downtown, you would see people from other parts of town. In many cases, you were talking about some kind of trouble. BOOKER: Right, right. Those were magic times, because there was none of that . We were all in jail together and we didn' ; t fight. I mean we were packed on top of each, but we didn' ; t fight. HUNTLEY: Tell me, how did you get arrested? BOOKER: Okay, we came over the hill. We saw the kids coming from Carver. Then, as we got down to Sixth Avenue, we all just kind of got on both sides and went down on Sixth Avenue to the church and I think when we crossed Fifth Avenue, everything was blocked off from there. And we kind of made our way down and the police was rolling their eyes, looking at us, because people were coming. And as we got there and these kids got there, we looked down Sixth Avenue and there were kids coming in a big group like ours. It may have been maybe twenty-five [people], it may have been twenty. You know, when you' ; re fourteen years old, twenty people could be a hundred people. HUNTLEY: So, now, had you left school that day? BOOKER: Yeah, we left school. We snuck out of school. HUNTLEY: Let' ; s back up then. How did that come about? How did you know to leave school? BOOKER: Everybody else was going. We didn' ; t go the first day. We may have went the fourth day or the fifth day. But there had already been people who had gone who were already in jail. We had been kind of checking things out. We had been down to the mass meeting, checked that out. We had been to the demonstrations where, you know, the people had made it against the law to march. The strategy came about that we were going to fill up the jail. I think this was after they put Martin and Dr. Abernathy in jail. The strategy was, let' ; s just fill the jails up. They couldn' ; t do it with the adults because they could lose their jobs. I heard different people take credit for the idea of using the children. I heard people say that the leadership didn' ; t want to use the children and that it was some of the field workers said it, but as soon as the idea got around among the kids, it was over. We liked it and we moved on it. So, other folk had already gone to jail and we knew what to expect. We knew how it went. We knew what was going on, alright. But this was the day that we were going. It was a Monday. My mother dropped me off. I went in the school, through the school, and out to the courtyard. Other folk were already out in the courtyard. And, you know, it was already that we were going today. We' ; re going. You' ; re going, we going too. So as we started leaving the school, other folk got with us and you know, people caught up with us. We saw folk on their way to school. They turned around and we walked downtown talking, and we didn' ; t start singing until we got up near the church. We sang outside in the streets before we went in the church so we can come back out and be arrested. We just sang and taunted the police. Our favorite thing was, ' ; I ain' ; t gonna' ; let nobody turn me around.' ; And our favorite verse was, ' ; ain' ; t gonna' ; let Bull Conner.' ; It gave us a good feeling to be able to stand there and tell Mr. Eugene ' ; Bull' ; Conner, ' ; We ain' ; t gonna' ; let you.--' ; It made us feel powerful. But, anyway, then we go inside. They make the speeches. They pass the basket and ask everybody to put their pocketknife in the basket and if you got any weapons. They told us what to do, how to protect ourselves if you were pushed or shoved. They went through all that. We had heard all of these before, because we had seen other folks go. We had seen some of the first group of folks, when it was small, when the adults were going and we had seen other kids go. So we knew the spiel. We knew the routine. Like I said, we already knew, and though we were sitting there and they were making the speeches, we may have been talking among ourselves, halfway listening and halfway talking because we had already decided the plan. The plan was laid. We knew what we were going to do. They were in charge. We knew they had to make their speeches and go through their changes, but... So, we moved out. We came out of the church, we turned left and we started up Sixth Avenue. We started east on Sixth Avenue and the people at the front were met by the policemen who said, ' ; Y' ; all got to go. If you don' ; t, we' ; re gonna' ; arrest you.' ; And, then, they started herding us, and the people came in from both sides. They started herding us towards the buses and loading us on the buses because they had the buses parked there. It had become an assembly line. After that point, we had filled up not quite, but the city jail was full. Juvenile Court was full to capacity. People were sleeping in the halls. I went to the county. And when I got to the county, the county eventually became full and then they started bringing them to the Fair Park, and Fair Park got full. They filled up Bessemer and Fairfield jails, too, and some others. HUNTLEY: So where did you go? BOOKER: I went to the county [jail]. They took us there. But when they first loaded us up they took us over to the city. But at the city jail it was just like a mad house. You couldn' ; t see the police for the kids and the demonstrators. I remember this one police officer was in the back of the building, because we were outside. They just put us all out in the big courtyard. All the cells were already full and it must have been a processing center at that point. We were just outside and rumors were spreading about where we would eventually go after they figured out what the heck to do with all these little nappy headed children. HUNTLEY: How long were you there? BOOKER: At that place, we were there for about four or five hours. We talked to the police face to face because the guards didn' ; t have guns. And they were just completely surrounded. It was like folk on all sides and they seemed a little troubled about it. I guess they had never seen anything like this. Anyway, they kept us there for about four or five hours and then they loaded us back on the buses and they took us to juvenile court. At juvenile court they split us, the boys and the girls and I remember it was starting to get late in the evening and we had been going all day and we were kind of settling down, and this sister got up and started singing the Lord' ; s Prayer and we sung out there for a while. We sang Movement songs. We sang church songs. The people in the building came to the windows, opened the windows, and was looking out, and it was just really, really an emotional thing that happened. We left there that night about eight [o' ; clock]. HUNTLEY: They released you? BOOKER: No, no. They loaded all the boys. They loaded most of us because now they started breaking us down into groups and they took us to Jefferson County Jail, which was just about full. And when they put us in the cells up on the eighth floor, I believe, we were just in the hallway in the cellblock. The front of the cellblock is a big door, a big iron door, that' ; s an electric door. You go through that way. It could be either to the right or to the left, but what you immediately come into is the day room where there are two or three, maybe, long tables, alright, where the guys sit during the day and play cards. I don' ; t think they had TV' ; s at that time. But that' ; s where you ate your meals and played cards and generally sat around and did things during the day. If you go on back from there, then there are cells, and I think in this block they had four-man cells, which means they had two bunks up here and two bunks up there and a commode in the middle. And there may have been three, four, maybe five cells on back [of] this whole area. Normally, what happened was, you would put the prisoners inside the cells and close the doors to the individual cells, on the floors, in the cells on the floors, in the halls, on the tables and on the floors in the day room. They were just packed in there. We had literally filled up all the jails in the county. One thing I remember when my mother finally came and got me after five or six days, they were coming in with new boilers, new pots and new pans and stuff like that. It must have been a logistical nightmare to have to feed all of these people and take care of them. You have to remember, at this point, all the news media from all over the world was in here and everything they were doing was being closely scrutinized. Needless to say, it hassled them to no end. We were credited with breaking the back of Birmingham because at that point I believe, they-- It [the Movement] was fizzling. As a matter of fact, I think it was fizzling at the point when King and Abernathy went to jail and then the adults were afraid because they were losing their jobs and they couldn' ; t get out of jail and all kind of stuff was going on. They got everybody out of jail, but what I' ; m saying is, if you went to jail, they got your name. Wherever you worked, if you had a job, then you were through. So the grownups were too frightened to go. HUNTLEY: It was just the numbers weren' ; t there. BOOKER: Right, the numbers weren' ; t there to keep it going. And it' ; s said that the Movement would have died at that point had it not been for us [children]. And, God, it' ; s just a blessing to have been there. I think that we changed the course of human history at some point. HUNTLEY: Were there other members of your family involved? BOOKER: No, my sister wouldn' ; t go to jail for no-o-o-o-o body. She wouldn' ; t go to jail if Martin Luther King came by the house and asked her to. HUNTLEY: Did she ever go to any of the meetings? BOOKER: No, she watched it on TV. My sister was very non-confrontational. HUNTLEY: What was your mother' ; s and sister' ; s reaction to your participation? BOOKER: You know what my sister would say? [She' ; d say] ' ; See, I knew he would go down there, cause he just so bad.' ; My mother was afraid and proud because she knew that they would kill me. When we was little they used to say, ' ; I' ; d rather kill you myself than let the White folks kill you,' ; and that was a real thing. And, so, she was proud, but she was also afraid. She had told me not to go down there. HUNTLEY: Were you all members of any particular church? BOOKER: We went to Zion Hill. Zion Hill was on Sixth Avenue. It was right down from Sixteenth Street Baptist Church in the next block. HUNTLEY: So even after you moved to Loveman' ; s Village you still came back? BOOKER: Yeah. HUNTLEY: Was your church involved? BOOKER: No, as a church we didn' ; t have any mass meetings. HUNTLEY: What about your pastor? BOOKER: Not to my knowledge. I really don' ; t know. HUNTLEY: What benefits did you and your family and community realize as a result of the Movement? BOOKER: The beginning of consciousness. The beginning of the awareness of self. I know the obvious things you would think would be the integration and access to public facilities, and all those things were obvious benefits. But I think the most important benefit was the self-esteem that it gave Black people. The feeling that we can do something. I think that we have never been that powerless since that day. HUNTLEY: After the Movement, Wash, you then volunteered and went into the Marine Corps? BOOKER: I was still very patriotic. HUNTLEY: When you came out of the Marine Corps, what did you do? BOOKER: I came home. HUNTLEY: How was home? BOOKER: I was different. Home was different, but I was different, too. I was a combat veteran. I had been in combat. I had fought for this country and I made the same mistakes that Black men had made since the Civil War. You are very familiar with the fact that there were riots after World War Two, because the Black troops went to France and they set with the mademoiselles and they thought they were free and when they came back here there were riots in eastern cities and cities in the Midwest. And partly, it was the attitude that they came back with--expecting that they could now be real Americans and they could enjoy all of the privileges that other American enjoyed. Of course, that wasn' ; t the case. After World War Two it was the same way. And Korea. I don' ; t think it was as bad after Korea for some reason. I guess it bears examining, but it just didn' ; t have the same kind of effect. After Vietnam, because of the Civil Rights Movement, the peace Movement, and the nationalist Movement that was afoot in the Black community, we got education in ' ; Nam [Vietnam]. We started to interact with people from up north and up east who knew about folks like Malcolm X, because you have to realize in Alabama there was a cotton curtain. News didn' ; t come in and news didn' ; t get out. We were shocked to find out some of the things that had gone on in some of the other parts of the country that we never heard about. HUNTLEY: Like what, for instance? BOOKER: Like what was happening with the Nation of Islam. We knew there was a small group of Black Muslims here. And we had heard tales about what they were doing in places like Chicago and what they were doing in places like New York, but to get news in the newspaper or to be able to look at the news on television, which is what we did, or looking at the front page of the newspaper, it wasn' ; t there. It' ; s just those kinds of things just weren' ; t reported down here. So we were behind in terms of that Movement. We led the charge in the Civil Rights Movement but the ' ; Black and proud' ; Movement, the Black revolution, the Black identity, Black Independence Movement if you will, we came late to that. And, most of us, got those kind of ideas from our interactions with our cousins from up north and some of these other places. So we came back quite militant. Plus the riots happened while I was in ' ; Nam and we didn' ; t find out about them. A lot of things were going on in this country too. I was in ' ; Nam in [19]68 and ' ; 69. There were things happening here that we didn' ; t find about until much later. HUNTLEY: You got back here in ' ; 69 or ' ; 70? BOOKER: I came home from ' ; Nam in ' ; 69--in May of ' ; 69 and I got out of the Marine Corps in ' ; 70. What I found in Birmingham when I got back, though, with my new attitude and my new knowledge of James Brown had made Black and Proud. Plus, we thought things had changed too while we were in ' ; Nam. We made two mistakes. Two things we thought had changed hadn' ; t changed. One, we thought that America had become a fair and a more just place and that Black people now shared equally in the American dream. Two, we became conscious and close while we were in ' ; Nam. We developed a camaraderie, a sense of brotherhood that we thought was even stronger back here. HUNTLEY: Now you came to Birmingham. Your buddies probably went to New York or Chicago or Los Angeles. What was your reaction when you returned? BOOKER: Police brutality was rampant here. I think it was the same kind of thing. There were people coming from the service. The old line, the old racist segregationists who were on the police department was saying, ' ; Well, you' ; re back here now, I don' ; t care where you been, who you think you is. You' ; re back in Birmingham--' ; And, so, that kind of thing was going on. The community was a little bit more militant. There was militancy in the community, and we returning Vietnam veterans brought back militancy to the community. And, at the same time, the police were becoming more repressive and oppressive. That' ; s what we ran into. I hooked up with some fellows when I got back here. HUNTLEY: These other fellows, were they Vietnam veterans as well? BOOKER: Three of them were Vietnam veterans. Mombozi was a middle class college student that hooked up with us. Doc Brad--you know Doc. Doc had come from Carolina and had been fooling around with the Movement for years and we started an affiliation of the Panther Party. It was called the Alabama Black Liberation Front. We adhered to the principles and ideology and teachings of the Party and we sold the Black Panther newspaper and we were an affiliation of the Party. Among other things, we fought police brutality by doing everything from investigating and documenting cases of police brutality when we went out into the community right on their heels. We had two offices. We had one in Roosevelt City and we had another over in Titusville in a place they called Newmongo, a little Korea. People would call. Let' ; s say the police was going to somebody' ; s house in Cottageville, kicked the door in and roughed their momma up and their sister and just kind of beat up everybody, which they would do, which was done commonly and we would get a call. We would shoot over there. We' ; d talk to everybody who was a witness. We' ; d get their story. We' ; d get it all down. And there was a young man, a young council member, who had decided that he was going to fight things. So we hooked up with him and we decided that we would go up there and meet with him. Doc would take him the information, and he would get up in the council meeting and boom, boom, boom, and he would blast them. He had the acceptability and the credibility in the community that we had been denied. They ran a campaign, a media campaign, against us. They told the community that we were a threat to the community, that we were militants, and that we were dangerous, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the information we gave him, he was able to use to bring attention to the situation. HUNTLEY: Who was this individual? BOOKER: Richard Arrington. He was Councilman Arrington then. He had his office in the City Federal Building--not the City Federal Building, but the 2121 Building. We started a breakfast-for-kids programs. We went to the merchants in the neighborhood and said, ' ; You make your money off of these people, but their kids go to school hungry in the morning.' ; Of course, we got this from the [Black Panther] Party, and we said, " ; You' ; re going to donate and give us grits and eggs and food.' ; And they said we were extorting. ' ; Hell,' ; we said. ' ; No, we' ; re just putting something back.' ; We were making sure they were putting something back. So we started running breakfast-for-kids programs and we held political education classes and we would teach the kids songs. They said we were indoctrinating the kids with our ideology, which is why the federal government eventually co-opted the program nationally and the federal government now provides breakfast for children at school who can' ; t afford it. But the concept came from the Panther Party. HUNTLEY: Around the country there were Black Panther Party organizations from Oakland to New Haven, Connecticut and there were many difficulties, physical encounters with the police. Did that happen? BOOKER: All the time. One of the first ones I can remember is when we followed the example of the Party and got copies of the City Codes and we-- When they came into our community, we would get in the car and get right behind them. And if they would stop anybody, we' ; d get out and observe. We would say, ' ; The man has rights. You have to read him his rights. You have to' ; do this, you have to do that. Of course, they would get angry. In the beginning they didn' ; t know how to deal with it. I think a lot of it had to do with just that they were really stunned because here was some Black men in Birmingham, Alabama walking up to the police saying, ' ; Look, you can' ; t do this to this man. This man has a constitutional right to defend himself against you if you violate his rights, and he has rights.' ; Of course, they didn' ; t want to hear none of that. We had one confrontation up on Sixth Avenue where a brother was selling the papers and they called the police on him. He called it in and we called some other folk and it ended up that we were all up there on Sixth Avenue armed with the police. It was diffused. It all just fizzled out. We left. They left. Nobody was arrested. There was a shoot out that was out in Tarrant City. A woman was going to be evicted and she had no place to go. We were idealists. We could not understand how you could just take a Black person-- The lady was in her sixties. She had been living there and she was renting from one of these slumlords and he was going to put her out. Somebody called us and said, ' ; Look, they' ; re going to put this lady out in the street and she' ; s got nowhere to go. She' ; s got no family.' ; So we went out to the house. I was not in the house when the Sheriff finally came, but the Sheriff came and a gunfight broke out and obviously they brought enough folk. They had fifty or sixty deputies. HUNTLEY: Was anyone hurt? BOOKER: Ronny was shot in the neck, I think. Was Doc shot? Doc might have been shot too. Ronny was shot and Jamael was shot. Mombozi didn' ; t get shot, but I think maybe two or three of the fellows got shot. Then one of the brothers named Robert Jakes from North Birmingham, they broke him and he testified against everybody else and said it was a conspiracy. I think Doc ended up with five years, Ronny ended up with five years. Ronny never served his. He left and went to Oregon. The Governor of Oregon refused to extradite him back to Alabama because he said that the judicial system was unfair to Blacks and that [Ronny] couldn' ; t get a fair trial and he didn' ; t feel like it was good. He lived there until he died four or five years ago. Doc, of course, went and did three years, I think. There was-- Oh God, I remember one night. When I think about this it sends chills. One night we were going to ambush the police simply because some idiot came to headquarters and started saying, ' ; Y' ; all always talk about what y' ; all gonna' ; do, but y' ; all ain' ; t gonna' ; do nothing. Y' ; all scared of the White folks. Y' ; all ain' ; t gonna' ; do nothing.' ; Doc wasn' ; t there. Ronny was there and it kind of worked us all into a frenzy. We loaded up our arms and set up an ambush, and it just so happens we made this guy go with us and he broke before we could spring the ambush. It would have been a terrible thing, just a senseless act of murder with no real political purpose. It would have been hard to defend in hindsight. Hindsight is twenty twenty. It would have been hard to defend. HUNTLEY: But it didn' ; t happen? BOOKER: Right, it didn' ; t happen because, he... We were set in, in the ambush, right? Everybody was. We was just waiting for the cop and he [the man who instigated things] jumped up and threw his rifle down and took off and said, ' ; Y' ; all crazy' ; and ran. So, when he ran, we all got up and said, ' ; We ain' ; t gonna' ; do this.' ; But, you know, that' ; s the closest-- I look back at that and I think that' ; s the closest-- And it was stupid. The other confrontations were when we were exercising our rights. The brother had the right to sell the newspaper but, thinking that Black people didn' ; t know their rights, that they could just buffalo this brother, you know, these officers, they approach him and tell him, ' ; Get on. You can' ; t stand out here and sell that.' ; Of course, he could. He called us. They called reinforcements. And we all ended up on Sixth Avenue. There were cases where they stopped and we stopped and there were words back and forth. I just think that they were not ready for armed Black men. They had never had to deal with this kind of situation before and it kind of threw them off. Of course, today, they have tactics and deal with it lickety split. HUNTLEY: Well, Wash, I think we can probably conclude. Is there anything else that you would like to add just to highlight or maybe encapsulate what Birmingham has meant to you in the years that you' ; ve spent here? BOOKER: I see Birmingham now in hindsight as a place where, you know, a center for change. Birmingham has produced a lot of leaders, great thinkers. People have left here, I think, and have gone to other parts of the country that the Movement produced and that we have played a part. This has been a Movement town and it is a Movement town. And I think the reason it became a Movement town is because at one point, it was ' ; the most racist place on the face of the earth,' ; is what one person said. Tough times make tough people. Growing up in a tough town like Birmingham was what made the people, the Black folk who came out of here, tough people. And I think that toughness has pushed this city forward when they were allowed to participate and their toughness has caused this city to continue to try to grow and build and move in spite of what anybody may say or what may happen, and I think it' ; s because of the toughness of the town and that it' ; s still around and it is still, to my way of thinking, one of the world' ; s great cities today and it has a bright future. Strangely enough, because of those tough times, we made tough people that are now able to build. We are not inside, not by a long shot. We ain' ; t where we ought to be, but we ain' ; t where we was, either. Hopefully, we will get ' ; there' ; , wherever that is. But the controversial thing-- ' ; There' ; is--is a place we haven' ; t identified yet as a people. I think that self-determination, the right to decide your own destiny as a people, is something, is a right, that belongs to every group of people, race and ethnic group on the earth. I think, we, as Black folk have to realize that it is right and just for us to want to determine our own destiny. To want, to whatever extent we can, to the greatest extent we can, to determine our own destiny. HUNTLEY: I appreciate you spending this time with us. You have done a tremendous job. BOOKER: I really feel like we left so much out. HUNTLEY: Yes, but we' ; ll have to do it again. There' ; s always so much left out, but you can' ; t do it all in a day. BOOKER: I think the best part of it was the part that they threw out, but that wasn' ; t our fault. That was their fault. That was the director' ; s fault. HUNTLEY: But that was very perceptive. A tough town makes for tough people. Thank you, Wash. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=WBookerIII1995.xml WBookerIII1995.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Washington Booker III
Description
An account of the resource
Washington Booker III discusses growing up in Loveman's Village, getting involved in the Movement, serving in the Marine Corps and the founding of the Alabama Black Liberation Front.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
19950105B
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Vietnam War, 1961-1975
Alabama Black Liberation Front
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1995-01-05
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/a656d23fa53a49c2243754e57d951a95.jpg
787bfb4e48b8165be12c40b03200e3b4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Horace Huntley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Walter Wilson III
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=WWilson1995.xml
Interview Keyword
This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are
included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
Phillips High School
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 June 7, 1995 Walter Wilson III Interviewed on June 7, 1995 19950607W 0:24:15 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham United States. Air Force Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Phillips High School Walter Wilson III Horace Huntley Video 1:|16(7)|42(10)|67(4)|89(3)|104(4)|126(12)|170(14)|189(3)|206(11)|226(2)|245(2)|264(13)|278(4)|288(15)|307(13)|327(15)|343(10)|379(2)|390(17)|405(5)|425(8)|437(8)|455(3) 0 https://youtu.be/aW4qEO1WsRI YouTube video English 19 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mr. Walter Wilson, Ill for the Birmingham Civil Rights lnstitute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 7, 1995. Introduction to Walter Wilson III 33.4810, -86.9089 17 Miles College 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org BCRI Homepage 35 Family Background I just want to start by asking you some general kinds of questions about your family. What part of the state were your parents from? Walter Wilson III discusses his family's background growing up in a mixture of Birmingham and Dayton, Alabama. Integration--Birmingham City Schools (Ala.) ; Night School Birmingham (Ala.) ; Dayton (Ala.) ; Robert James Printing Company (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 129 Early Education I am going to come back to that and ask you about that. Let me just ask you, what community did you live in at the time that you were growing up? Walter Wilson III talks about going to school in Birmingham, and going back and forth between Ullman and Parker high school due to the school fights. School Fights Avondale (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Smithfield (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Thomas Elementary (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 206 Attending College and The Air Force What did you do after high school? Walter Wilson III talks about how he went to Morehouse, joined the Air Force, and then continued back school at Lawson State when he finished. Prejudices--United States Military Air Force (U.S.) ; G.I. Bill ; Lawson State Community College (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) 255 Incident at Phillips High School Let me back up just a bit. I know that in 1957 you were one of the students that" ; made the attempt to integrate Phillips High School. You were in fact with Fred Shuttlesworth and his children the morning they went into Phillips. Can you tell me about that? Walter Wilson III discusses trying to integrate Phillips High School with Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth, but was faced with violence and had to leave. School Integration--Racial Violence--Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) Ku Klux Klan ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 472 Mass Meetings Did you attend any of the Monday night meetings? Walter Wilson III discusses attending mass meetings where Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth discusses ways the Black community could progress. School integration Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 568 Family Involvement in Movement Did you participate in any of the demonstrations? Walter Wilson III discusses his brothers involvement with Bull Conner and having the hoses turned on him. Fire Hoses ; Water Hoses Air Force (U.S.) ; Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Nashville (Tenn.) ; Paris, France ; Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 631 Going To the Hospital with Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth What do you remember about the day when they took you over to the hospital? Or when you went to the hospital with Shuttlesworth? Walter Wilson III does not recall much about going to the hospital after the beating of Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth at Phillips High School. Racial Violence--Hospital ; School Integration Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 708 Impact of Being Involved in the Movement How did that experience impact you as a young person at the time? Walter Wilson III talks was proud to be part of the movement and discusses being harassed by the Ku Klux Klan. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Ku Klux Klan ; The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 849 Talking to the Ku Klux Klan You said that you talked with the Klu Klux Klansmen when they called the house, did that frighten you? Walter Wilson III talks about receiving verbal threats from the Ku Klux Klan. Interracial Marriage--Threats 928 Relationship with Ullman Students and Morehouse students How did this reflect your relationship, your attempting to go to Phillips High School? How did that affect your relationship with the students at Ullman when you went there? Did they know that you had attempted to do that? Walter Wilson III discusses how he didn't get much more involved after going to school and serving in the military. Student Involvement--Civlil Rights Movement ; Students--Atlanta (Ga.)--Nashville (Tenn.) Air Force (U.S.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; G.I. Bill ; Los Angeles (Calif. ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Tennessee State University 1095 Making the Same Decisions Again Yes. You were a child. So, of course, you didn't have the same opportunities to get involved. Let me just ask though. If looking back on that, if that was to be the case now, would you want to do the same thing again, going to Phillips High School, making the effort to desegregate? Witnessing the attack on Shuttlesworth? Walter Wilson III said that he wishes he could've gone back to Phillips a few more times in the effort to integrate. Phillips High School ; Ullman High School 1157 Impact of Prejudices in School and the Air Force Yes. You really would have liked to have gone back. But actually the case was made as a result of your going at that time. Okay. Is there anything else that sort of stands out in your mind that relate to the Movement if we can relate it to your activity, your participation, is there anything else that we have not covered that you would like to deal with? Walter Wilson III talks about how he would've finished school and continued in the Air Force if it wasn't for racial prejudices that he had to face. Racial Prejudices--United States Military ; Racism Nashville (Tenn.) ; United States. Air Force 1351 Perception of Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth AII right. Well, I appreciate your time and coming to sit and talk with us because you are the first person I talked with who was actually there the day that Fred Shuttlesworth was beaten. Let me ask you one last question. How do you look at Fred Shuttlesworth as a man in the way in which he handled that situation at Phillips High School? Walter Wilson III describes Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth as a man of courage. Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1417 Conclusion fo Interview All right, Mr. Wilson. I appreciate you taking the time out and sitting with us. And I am sure that those things that you want to accomplish in life that you will be successful at them. Interview conclusion with Walter Wilson III. Oral History Walter Wilson III discusses attempting to integrate Phillips High School with Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth. He continued to volunteer for the Movement before serving in the Air Force. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mr. Walter Wilson, Ill for the Birmingham Civil Rights lnstitute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 7, 1995. Thank you Mr. Wilson for coming out and being with us today. WILSON: Thank you very much. HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking you some general kinds of questions about your family. What part of the state were your parents from? WILSON: My mother was born in Dayton, Alabama. My father, I don' ; t know where he was born. I think he was born in Birmingham. My people lived here. I lived here all my life. HUNTLEY: You were born here in Birmingham? WILSON: I was born in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Did you have brothers and sisters? WILSON: I have two brothers younger and a sister younger. HUNTLEY: So you are the elder statesman? WILSON: I am. HUNTLEY: Good. Tell me about your parents' ; education. WILSON: Well, as far as I know my father may have finished high school. My mother went to night school to finish, I know. HUNTLEY: Yes. She finished high school. WILSON: And my grandparents had finished school. HUNTLEY: What about your parents' ; occupations. HUNTLEY: Well, I can remember my mother having only one job other than the one while she worked for the church. She worked for Robert James Printing Company back in the 50s and I remember her talking about it. And I think that she got fir13d because of the fact that I was with Shuttlesworth and we were trying to get something done about the integration of schools in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: I am going to come back to that and ask you about that. Let me just ask you, what community did you live in at the time that you were growing up? WILSON: Avondale and Smithfield. HUNTLEY: Avondale and Smithfield? And what elementary school did you attend? WILSON: I went to Thomas Elementary School. HUNTLEY: Thomas Elementary. And, then, from Thomas to..? WILSON: Ullman High School. HUNTLEY: To Ullman. And you graduated from Ullman High School? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: All right. Tell me, what do you remember about Ullman? What was it like going to Ullman? WILSON: Well, it was great the first two years and then it seems like it was mediocre after that. I wanted to go to Parker the last year because the old people had told me where the best classes were. They were saying that Ullman had a good school, but Parker had the best 12th grade and I went to Parker that 12th year to transfer there and I saw so many fights going up and down the aisle, going to the principal' ; s office, I turned around and come back and went back to Ullman. HUNTLEY: Oh, so you finished Ullman then? WILSON: Yes. HUNTLEY: So you felt that Ullman was better than Parker after that? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school? WILSON: I went to Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia for one year. And I joined the air force. And I stayed in the air force until ' ; 63. I faced a lot of prejudiced in the air force and then I came home and got my GI bill and I went to Lawson State two years. HUNTLEY: Did you spend four years in the air force? WILSON: Three years. In the air force the first sergeant was prejudiced and he saw to me getting out early. HUNTLEY: So you got an early out. WILSON: Early out. HUNTLEY: Let me back up just a bit. I know that in 1957 you were one of the students that" ; made the attempt to integrate Phillips High School. You were in fact with Fred Shuttlesworth and his children the morning they went into Phillips. Can you tell me about that? WILSON: Well, we drove up on the lot to the doors and Shuttlesworth said " ; Well, here the school is, that' ; s where you want to go." ; So he said, " ; You can get out and go up there." ; So I opened the door and I was the first one out of the car. I got out the car and I started walking towards the school. HUNTLEY: Did the others get out with you? WILSON: No. Shuttlesworth got out. You see, what happened was, the crowd of people started running towards the car. They were Klu Klux, the Whites or whatever you call them. And Shuttlesworth got out of the car behind me and he told me, he said, " ; Run and get back in the car." ; And the people, these Whites come up hitting him with chains and bats and he finally worked his way back to the car and got in and we drove off. But it didn' ; t take long but I really wanted to go to that school, even though I knew that we had to get something in court or get a suit in for me to get in there. I knew they weren' ; t going to let me in there because the law hadn' ; t been changed. HUNTLEY: So you were the only child that got out of the car to go up to the school? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: And, then, Shuttlesworth got out behind you? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: And as the crowd approached him, he sent you back to the car? WILSON: Right. And they beat him. HUNTLEY: And they didn' ; t bother you? WILSON: No. They didn' ; t touch me. HUNTLEY: Could they have if they had wanted? WILSON: Well, they broke the windows out of the car on the side where I was sitting in and broke all the windows. The daughters were in the car crying. " ; Give me a fork. I wish I had a fork so I could get out there and help him fight." ; HUNTLEY: " ; A fork?" ; What do you mean? WILSON: It' ; s what you eat with. They wanted something to fight with. HUNTLEY: Oh, that' ; s what the daughters were saying? WILSON: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: Oh, but no one else ever got out of the car and he finally made it back to the car? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: Who was driving, do you remember? WILSON: He was driving. HUNTLEY: He was driving? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: So it was just he... WILSON: His wife. HUNTLEY: Rev. Phiffer? WILSON: Rev. Phiffer was not in the car I don' ; t think. Who I remember was his wife, his two daughters, me and Rev. Shuttlesworth, that' ; s all I remember. HUNTLEY: So, did they come to your house to pick you up that morning? WILSON: I am not sure about that. HUNTLEY: Do you remember why you were selected, or did you volunteer? How did you get to be a part of this effort? WILSON: My mother asked me did I want to attend Phillips High School was closer than Ullman or Parker and I think the law said something about you go to the closest school. And, I think the suit claimed that if Phillips was closer, why not let Blacks go to Phillips instead of passing by on the bus going to Parker and Ullman. Now I was only 12 years old. And these things been on my mind a long time. I don' ; t know exactly whether it' ; s hearsay I' ; m talking or what I remember from that time. HUNTLEY: Did you attend any of the Monday night meetings? WILSON: Yes, I did. HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what those meetings were like? WILSON: Well, I think Rev. Shuttlesworth would get up and talk and ask for suggestions as to what things could be done to help improve the city or help get Blacks integrated into the system of the city, get better positions in the schools and the cities. HUNTLEY: Were there other young people, a lot of other young people like yourself, involved in those Monday night meetings? Do you remember? WILSON: Well, they were there. HUNTLEY: Were any of your friends involved? Close friends that went to school with you or that lived in your community? WILSON: I don' ; t remember. HUNTLEY: What else do you remember about those meetings? Other than Shuttlesworth. WILSON: Oh, it was a good place to go on Monday night. HUNTLEY: Why did you say it' ; s a good place to go? WILSON: Well, you had Rev. Shuttlesworth talking and people complaining about what things needed to be done in the city for Blacks to move up ahead. HUNTLEY: Do you remember policeman being involved in those meetings? Or being present there? WILSON: I don' ; t remember seeing any. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of the demonstrations? WILSON: No. I didn' ; t. I just went to Phillips High School to try to get a better education. I didn' ; t participate in the marches. I was not in the city. I had joined the service in ' ; 63 and I was in Nashville, Tennessee. And it seemed like every time something came up, like in ' ; 63 when Shuttlesworth was here, I was in Paris, France. It seem like I came home a lot but I just wasn' ; t involved in too much more other than just the schooling. HUNTLEY: Were there other members of your family that were involved in the Movement? WILSON: Well, I can remember my brother telling me, they went down when Bull Conner had the hoses at them. My grandmother and they made fun of what was said and done while they were participating. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the day when they took you over to the hospital? Or when you went to the hospital with Shuttlesworth? WILSON: Is there anything that you remember about that occurrence? WILSON: Well, I remember -- I saw this picture. It has Shuttlesworth, his wife, his daughters and me on the picture, do you know what I am talking about? HUNTLEY: Right. WILSON: Well, all I know is that Shuttlesworth is the only one that got hurt. And that was probably the reason why we were at the hospital. HUNTLEY: But, you do remember him driving the car from Phillips High School to the hospital? WILSON: No. I don' ; t. HUNTLEY: You don' ; t remember that? WILSON: No. I remember him driving the car to Phillips High School, me getting out and start walking towards the school, him jumping out behind me and running and say, " ; Go get back in the car." ; And I saw the people beating him with chains and bats and sticks and things. He finally worked his way back to get in the car and when he got in the car, they broke the windows out and we drove off. That was really all that I remember in that picture. HUNTLEY: How did that experience impact you as a young person at the time? WILSON: Well, you know I was proud to be part of the system -- of the Christian Movement. We had a lifetime membership with the NAACP. We had membership with the Baptist -- well, anyway I am just proud to have been a part of it. That' ; s the way it was. HUNTLEY: And, do you think that by your being a part of that, did that play any role in what you would do later on in life or how you would view the struggle from that point on? WILSON: Well, back during the time, Klu Klux, Whites called the house. And they would talk to me and so I would talk to them on the telephone. HUNTLEY: What would they say to you? WILSON: " ; What do you think you are going to do? Go to school with Whites? Why do you want to go to school with Whites? And they would be watching me even up until later on in age when I got to be 50 or 60 years old, so they would still be watching me. And I remember -- it doesn' ; t seem like those things that they said are unconsciously still in my mind. HUNTLEY: Do you think that they are watching or have been watching you? WILSON: Well, I got to say it seem like I see people who are out of my past who come and pass by or wave. Some of the same people that was against us going to that school, they are still in this city and they do not want to see the city progress, yet. HUNTLEY: So you think there is some residue from that time to the present time? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: You said that you talked with the Ku Klux Klansmen when they called the house, did that frighten you? WILSON: Not at the time. It doesn' ; t frighten me now. I just seem wary of the fact that they are around. It seems like they say, " ; If you get married before you get to be 50 years old, it better be to a White woman." ; Seems like that' ; s what they said to me from back 40 years ago. HUNTLEY: Wait a minute. I don' ; t understand. You are saying that -- WILSON: They talk to me. I talk to them. They made fun and they threaten. We had people watching our house. We had people sitting on the porch with guns because they said they were going to come by and bomb. And they said, " ; If you get married before you get to be 50 years, it better be to a White woman." ; It' ; s some of the things that they did that I remember. HUNTLEY: This is what the Klan said, " ; That if you got married before 50, you better get married to a White woman." ; Why would a Klansman say that you, a Black man should get married to a White woman? WILSON: I don' ; t know. I don' ; t know. That' ; s just one of the things I remember from back then. HUNTLEY: How did this reflect your relationship, your attempting to go to Phillips High School? How did that affect your relationship with the students at Ullman when you went there? Did they know that you had attempted to do that? WILSON: Oh, they seemed to be proud of me. HUNTLEY: How did they show that pride in you? WILSON: Well, we didn' ; t talk about it too much. But sometime we would talk. And I was doing pretty good in school the first couple of years. I studied hard and we just talked about it. Then after awhile wasn' ; t nothing said about it. All it was, was to get something in the court so that people behind us would be able to go to those schools because we didn' ; t think we were going to be able to get in there. HUNTLEY: Well, when you went on to Morehouse, to college, did this ever come up when you were a student, a freshman or sophomore at Morehouse? WILSON: Yes, we talked about it. HUNTLEY: You went to college in 1961? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: So the Movement now is starting to develop because you had student activism. Students in Atlanta and Nashville were getting involved. Were you involved in any of those efforts as a college student? WILSON: No. HUNTLEY: So then you decided to go to Tennessee State and then come back to Birmingham? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: And, then, you decided to go to the military and, then, finally come out and go back to college on the GI bill? WILSON: Right. Well, my friend from Los Angeles, California who had been living in Atlanta with me, who had been going to school with me in Atlanta , he called up and said he had a job for me in Los Angeles so I went to Los Angeles to work. HUNTLEY: This is after Morehouse? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: Between Morehouse and Tennessee State? WILSON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. And how long were you out there? WILSON: Three months. HUNTLEY:And, then, you came back? WILSON: No. I joined the air force out there in ' ; 63. HUNTLEY: Oh, you joined the air force from out there? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: All right. Then your activity in the Movement basically was limited to the participation at Phillips High School. Your mother was intimately involved as she was a member of the Membership Committee. WILSON: I don' ; t remember. I was only 12 at that time. HUNTLEY: Yes. You were a child. So, of course, you didn' ; t have the same opportunities to get involved. Let me just ask though. If looking back on that, if that was to be the case now, would you want to do the same thing again, going to Phillips High School, making the effort to desegregate? Witnessing the attack on Shuttlesworth? WILSON: The only thing that I hate about it is, we just went there for one time. I think we should have continued to go back, and back and forth until they let us in. HUNTLEY: So the attack did not frighten you? WILSON: No, it didn' ; t. HUNTLEY: Yes. You really would have liked to have gone back. But actually the case was made as a result of your going at that time. Okay. Is there anything else that sort of stands out in your mind that relate to the Movement if we can relate it to your activity, your participation, is there anything else that we have not covered that you would like to deal with? WILSON: Well, I had some papers and things I have been saving because after I got into the air force -- I faced prejudice in the high schools here in the city. I faced prejudice in the air force in Nashville, Tennessee. And it just seem to go on and on. It seems like we are moving ahead, but we are just facing more prejudice. When you get around them and stay around them, if you had done something, like try to integrate, they think you want to be White, or whatever and it' ; s just more prejudice. It' ; s just as much prejudice ·now as it was then, I guess. HUNTLEY: You are saying it' ; s just as much now as it was then? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: But you don' ; t have to sit in the back of the bus now? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: You can go to Newberry' ; s. Well, Newberry' ; s is about gone, isn' ; t it? You can sit any place you want. So how do you mean " ; there is just as much prejudice now as then?" ; WILSON: Well, what I was referring to was the prejudice I faced in the air force. That' ; s what I was referring to and that was in the 60s, too. HUNTLEY: So you had prejudice here in the south and then prejudice in the military as well. How did that impact on your life as a whole? WILSON: Well, I had some plans to start and do something for myself. When I got to be 50 years old and things have not worked out the way I wanted them to. And I think it was all because of the prejudice elements that have been committed against me or Black people, whatever you say. It' ; s still holding them back and I think I have something to accomplish in life here. There are still some things I want to do and the prejudice seemed like it held me back. I didn' ; t finish college. I didn' ; t stay in the air force, but I wanted to. HUNTLEY: Do you think that the things that have held you back, are they still out there or would we be able to accomplish any of these things and get around this whole idea of being held back by prejudice and racism? WILSON: I think so. HUNTLEY: You think we will be able to do it? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: Right. Well, I appreciate your time and coming to sit and talk with us because you are the first person I talked with who was actually there the day that Fred Shuttlesworth was beaten. Let me ask you one last question. How do you look at Fred Shuttlesworth as a man in the way in which he handled that situation at Phillips High School? WILSON: I think he is a great man. And he was not afraid. He didn' ; t mind fighting with those people and he didn' ; t talk about it. He just got back in the car, we raced off and we went to the hospital. And they said, " ; Well, this is what we came here for. We knew we were not going to get a chance to go to this school, today." ; The only thing I say, is I think we should have went back the next day, and the next day until we finally got in there instead of waiting for them to take it through the courts. HUNTLEY: A man of courage is what you would call Shuttlesworth? WILSON: Yes, sir. HUNTLEY: All right, Mr. Wilson. I appreciate you taking the time out and sitting with us. And I am sure that those things that you want to accomplish in life that you will be successful at them. WILSON: Thank you. HUNTLEY: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=WWilson1995.xml WWilson1995.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Walter Wilson III
Description
An account of the resource
Walter Wilson III discusses attempting to integrate Phillips High School with Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth. He continued to volunteer for the Movement before serving in the Air Force.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
19950607W
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
United States. Air Force
Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1995-06-07
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/75677b99f7d8dca67220824c53ca75c3.png
266ba67d3fac07132b96a40edac6d0a6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Lola Hendricks
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Walter Lee Gadsden
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=WLGadsden1996.xml
Interview Keyword
This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are
included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
Kelly Ingram Park
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 May 25, 1996 Walter Lee Gadsden 19960525G 0:23:43 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Atlanta (Ga.)--Race relations Kelly Ingram Park Walter Lee Gadsden Lola Hendricks Video 1:|22(4)|41(3)|58(2)|75(2)|88(4)|101(3)|115(3)|132(7)|151(17)|164(2)|175(11)|190(14)|205(1)|215(8)|227(15)|240(10)|251(15)|271(7)|289(13)|308(4)|327(1)|338(12)|354(2) 0 https://youtu.be/w5yrVAyLhXY YouTube video English 0 Introduction of Interview This is an interview, today is Saturday, May 25, 1996, at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute with Mr. Walter Gadsden of Atlanta, Georgia. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 11 Early Childhood and Family Life Mr. Gadsden, as we begin this interview I would like to ask you what part of the state were your parents from? Gadsden discusses his parents and how he grew up in the poor, mainly " ; colored" ; section of Birmingham. Selma (Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Racial segregation 128 His Community's Relationship with the Birmingham Police Department What was that community's relationship to the City of Birmingham Police Department? Did you ever see any policemen patrolling your area? Gadsden discusses what it was like growing up in his neighborhood and how the police interacted with people in and around his neighborhood. Aggression and violence Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 176 Involvement in the Civil Rights Movement How did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement? Gadsden recalls how he promoted the Civil Rights Movement and participated in demonstrations and protests. Birmingham (Ala.) Civil rights movement 236 Personal Experience with Police Brutality and His Arrest To the park area, Kelly Ingram Park over there. And we walked around the corner and during that time activity wasn't easy to view, so we walked around and came in the front of the crowd, rather than behind. Gadsden recalls how violent the police and a police dog were towards him during a protest and how he was arrested for simply being there. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Kelly Ingram Park Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Police brutality--United States 454 Family's Reaction to Him Being Arrested After you return to school after being arrested, were you suspended? Gadsden remembers how his family was upset he went to the demonstration rather than school. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Ullman High School Arrest (Police methods) 546 Goal of Integration What benefits do you, your family, and the community realized as a result of that movement in Birmingham? Gadsden states that the integration of public facilities and schools was one of the greatest outcomes of the movement in Birmingham. Birmingham (Ala.) Integration ; Minorities--Political activity--United States 648 Reflection on the Civil Rights Movement If you were in control of an organization or movement, as such, and could go back and change some things, what would you change? Gadsden discusses how he would carefully pick who was involved in the movement. Birmingham (Ala.) Civil rights movement 766 Success of the Birmingham Civil Rights Movement What is your assessment of the Birmingham movement or have you been gone too long to really be able to tell what assessment has occurred in Birmingham? Gadsden discusses the successes of the movement but states that it could have been more successful if " ; crooked" ; people were not involved. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Minorities--Political activity--United States Civil rights movement 918 Racial Attitudes in Atlanta You now reside in Atlanta, Georgia. Do you have any assessments as you look at Atlanta and compare it to Birmingham? Do you have anything that you may want to say about the two cities? Gadsden discusses present-day life in Atlanta and how there is still a negative attitude towards " ; colored" ; people. Atlanta (Ga.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) Atlanta (Ga.)--Race relations ; Racial discrimination 1045 Thoughts on the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Let me ask you about your visit with us here today. Gadsden reveals how he feels about his picture being in the institute and how he does not want any notoriety from it. Birmingham (Ala.) Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 1220 Preference of the Word " ; Colored" ; to Describe Himself Well, I'm still wondering why after all the information that I had given and all that -- all that does is establish me as a young African boy, which I'm not. Gadsden tells how he prefers to be called " ; colored" ; rather than " ; negro" ; or Black. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Self-identification Birmingham (Ala.) 1280 Closing Remarks and His Photography Business Is there anything else you feel like you want to talk about in a personal manner or anything else that you would like to say before we end this interview? Gadsden leaves his last remarks on the movement and briefly discusses his freelance photography business. Photography--Business methods Atlanta (Ga.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1411 Conclusion of Interview It's been a pleasure and we hope you come back to see us. Again, thank you for the interview. Interview is concluded. Oral History Walter Lee Gadsden discusses growing up and experiencing discrimination in Birmingham before getting involved in the Movement. Mr. Gadsden's likeness and actions as a foot soldier inspired the statue of the young boy demonstrating at BCRI. HENDRICKS: This is an interview, today is Saturday, May 25, 1996, at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute with Mr. Walter Gadsden of Atlanta, Georgia. Mr. Gadsden, as we begin this interview I would like to ask you what part of the state were your parents from? GADSDEN: The southern part of the State. HENDRICKS: Were they born in Birmingham? GADSDEN: No. I' ; m not quite sure, but I think Selma for my mother. But, the man that I called " ; Father" ; was from Mississippi originally. HENDRICKS: How many brothers and sisters do you have? GADSDEN: I have one sister. HENDRICKS: Is she older than you? GADSDEN: Yes. HENDRICKS: How much education did your parents have? GADSDEN: Well, from what I can ascertain, they were both educated as far as high school and the first school was concerned. I' ; d never been the one to ask about all of that. HENDRICKS: Mr. Gadsden, when you were here in Birmingham as a child, what community did you live in? GADSDEN: On the south side of town. HENDRICKS: What basically was your racial make-up in that area? GADSDEN: It was mostly Negro, Black, Colored. HENDRICKS: Okay. Occupation during that time? GADSDEN: I was a school kid. HENDRICKS: I mean people in that area pretty much were on the same economic level? GADSDEN: Well, it was a poorer neighborhood. Very poor. HENDRICKS: What was that community' ; s relationship to the City of Birmingham Police Department? Did you ever see any policemen patrolling your area? GADSDEN: The immediate area that I lived in -- I lived at, well you know the address. HENDRICKS: 3114? GADSDEN: Right. So, the immediate neighborhood was rather rough. There were various outbreaks of violence amongst neighborhood people, but only amongst themselves, family matters and things of that sort. But various other neighboring neighborhoods, which weren' ; t so very large, there would be a lot of police activity and I never knew what it was about. HENDRICKS: How did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement? GADSDEN: Now, that' ; s one thing that I always have a problem with. I never did get involved with the Civil Rights Movement. I' ; ve always believed in trying to promote civil rights amongst people such as myself and anyone, as a matter of fact. But, the fact is the day of that movement, I was supposed to have been in school, but an acquaintance had told me earlier that Martin Luther King was in town that day and that he was going to be there and I said I wanted to be there too. I wanted to come and find out what it was all about because I didn' ; t know anything about it. HENDRICKS: When you left school, you were at what high school at the time? GADSDEN: Ullman. HENDRICKS: And, when you left school, where did you come downtown? GADSDEN: To the park area, Kelly Ingram Park over there. And we walked around the corner and during that time activity wasn' ; t easy to view, so we walked around and came in the front of the crowd, rather than behind. I thought it would be in the middle of the crowd somehow. I saw policemen and all of the activity so I started walking toward, I don' ; t know what happened to the acquaintance of mine, but I was walking toward the activity and as I approached and got closer, they turned and looked at me and I got closer. I saw them coming toward me, so I turned to leave to go around and get with where the Black people were so I could get some information because I knew I wasn' ; t going to get anything from the police. So, as I turned and started to walk away, I was grabbed. HENDRICKS: Grabbed by the policemen? GADSDEN: Grabbed by the policeman and yanked toward him and afterward I was grabbed and hustled to a white van and bodily picked up and thrown. As I started to step, I was just pushed on in. HENDRICKS: Okay, but before this happened, when the police grabbed you on the collar, is that when the dog bit you? Did a dog bite you at that time? GADSDEN: As near as I can remember that happened simultaneously. The policeman grabbed me, I don' ; t remember what hand. I could show you the bite marks and all. HENDRICKS: So you still have the scars? GADSDEN: Yes. But, that happened simultaneously and I was surprised because I was walking away. During that time the racial air was so thick that whatever it was I couldn' ; t really focus to find out what was going on because that was adult activity, the way I thought then. But, I was looking, I couldn' ; t look up, I was looking at the white 3-wheel motorcycles coming toward me. It happened so fast there was nothing I could do except throw up a leg and try to protect myself. And, as I was doing that, there I went. HENDRICKS: Did they take you to jail? GADSDEN: Not the regular facility. They took me to the fairgrounds in a huge tent. HENDRICKS: These circumstances were because of the mass arrests, is that why you had to go out to fair park? GADSDEN: Yes, that' ; s what I was told. HENDRICKS: Do you remember how long you remained in jail or arrested? GADSDEN: No, now that I cannot remember because a lot has happened since then and things that have happened prevent me from remembering at the moment. It' ; s rather sketchy. I like being rather precise with whatever I say. HENDRICKS: Did any other family member of yours participate in the Movement at all or get arrested or go to the mass meetings? GADSDEN: No, not that I know about. HENDRICKS: After you return to school after being arrested, were you suspended? GADSDEN: I think so. I' ; m not quite sure. I remember being in the auditorium and the principal gave a good bombasting and the crowd began laughing, but I was standing there rather embarrassed at the outcome. HENDRICKS: How did your family members react to your participation? GADSDEN: Well, they were angry because I didn' ; t attend school that day. HENDRICKS: Were you a member of a church at that time? GADSDEN: I wasn' ; t a member of a church, but the family activity, I was rather instructed to go to church. But, often I would not go because of the fact that I' ; m not a very religious person. HENDRICKS: The church where your parents or your family attending, were they involved in the Civil Rights Movement during that time, do you know? GADSDEN: They never told me of it. HENDRICKS: What church were they going to at that time? GADSDEN: I see it, I know where it is, but I don' ; t remember the name of it. HENDRICKS: What benefits do you, your family and the community realized as a result of that movement in Birmingham? GADSDEN: None. HENDRICKS: You don' ; t think that any benefits were done (Inaudible)? GADSDEN: Well, overall is where gradually facilities where opened. The ' ; White only' ; signs and ' ; Colored only' ; signs were removed. But there was always the same racial air except among some Caucasian people. Some Caucasian people during that time were openly friendly and inviting as a matter of gaining access to normal community things, while most weren' ; t. The only thing that I could see that actually happened was that the toilets became integrated and the water fountains became integrated and gradually various other things because of various influences among certain groups and because of the nationwide pressure that was put upon the Caucasians and the Whites of various other races in opening all of those opportunities. And the government is the main thing. All of that brought about governmental and political action that brought all that about. Now, that' ; s stirred it, but its the votes and the political actions and the laws passed that brought all that about. HENDRICKS: If you were in control of an organization or movement, as such, and could go back and change some things, what would you change? GADSDEN: If I could go back to the movement of the past and change some things, the Civil Rights Movement? HENDRICKS: Yes. GADSDEN: Well, I' ; ll take a look at the form, the shape, this could get me into trouble, but I really believe this and I really think this. It' ; s not a feeling or anything. HENDRICKS: This is your personal interview. GADSDEN: Okay, the things that I would change would be a more careful choice of people involved in all of those movements, where the head meetings and all that was concerned. That was necessary as a matter of the laws not being changed anyway, because that would have remained status quo. But, the things that I would change would be -- well, I wouldn' ; t change anything actually because that would be entirely hypothetical and being hypothetical isn' ; t easy for me except when joking or just fantasizing and I don' ; t like fantasizing too much. So there' ; s nothing that I could really say about it, without really thinking about it. But, there are too many, well to be just blunt, crooked people. Many of the people that were involved and had notoriety became too crooked. HENDRICKS: Okay. GADSDEN: Illegal. HENDRICKS: What is your assessment of the Birmingham movement or have you been gone too long to really be able to tell what assessment has occurred in Birmingham? How successful do you think the Birmingham movement was? What were it' ; s accomplishments or what were its failures? Now, you may or may not be able to answer that question because if you' ; ve been gone a good part of Birmingham you may not know. GADSDEN: Well, where Birmingham is concerned the political issues, the civil issues, the business issues, I have no knowledge of because I' ; ve been gone for years. Earlier when I said that people, or some of the people that were involved, became too crooked, I was talking about the whole United States as a whole, not just Birmingham, Alabama. There aren' ; t any particular cases of that that I can mention without causing major concern where my own welfare is concerned, being sued or (Inaudible), or slandering someone and all that kind of thing, I' ; m not going to do that. HENDRICKS: Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with at this interview? And comments or statements you want to make of anything that you would like to leave with the young people that may hear your testimony? GADSDEN: Well, there isn' ; t much that I could really say because of the fact that where anything is concerned there' ; s always the air that Black people have done so much for the Black people of the country. And, then called Black all the time and, then called African all the time, which I' ; m not, that makes -- Africans really don' ; t like me much. So, there' ; s really not much I can relate to you on that because of the fact that I' ; m not a popular person where personals are concerned. Maybe because of (Inaudible) you say, but I' ; ve never had any notoriety. I' ; ve never even talked about it. I never talked about it with anyone, as a matter of fact. HENDRICKS: You now reside in Atlanta, Georgia. Do you have any assessments as you look at Atlanta and compare it to Birmingham? Do you have anything that you may want to say about the two cities? GADSDEN: Well, the two cities compare but I cannot really make that comparison because of the fact that I was living there and not here, and occasionally visiting here but not becoming involved in anything. So, the political structure I can' ; t say anything about because I' ; m not familiar with Birmingham' ; s political structure or business structure or anything else about it. But, where Atlanta is concerned, it was basically integrated, so to speak, but there was still that racial attitude, nonetheless and now. But, since Blacks have been pressuring so much and becoming involved in so much, it' ; s eased some, but in 1980 I went to a barber shop that I found was White in the middle of downtown Atlanta and got refused. HENDRICKS: That was in 1980? GADSDEN: 1980 with a Black mayor and everything else. I' ; ve been, not because of any rowdiness or anything like that but just because of racial attitudes, had the police called on me while I was sitting in a bar drinking beer alone, not saying anything to anyone and thinking about drinking the beer, maybe getting another one and leaving. And, there comes a Black policeman and said the management wants me to leave because they reserve the right not to serve whom it is that they don' ; t want to serve. HENDRICKS: Well, do you think that was only because of the color of your skin? Were you the only Black in there? GADSDEN: I was the only person in there with my color. HENDRICKS: So you still experience that in Atlanta, Georgia? GADSDEN: Yes. HENDRICKS: Let me ask you about your visit with us here today. How do you feel after having seen the statue that is out there, of foot soldiers and it shows the images of you in that picture that was taken in 1963 of May? GADSDEN: That statue doesn' ; t look like me. It looks like a totally different boy. That looks like an African boy. HENDRICKS: That' ; s the way you feel about it? It looks like an African boy? GADSDEN: It looks like an African boy. HENDRICKS: The color or the features? GADSDEN: The features. The lips, the size. You take a look at the picture there and the statue there, the boy is short, I was tall for my age. I was looking down at the dog, but that was his interpretation, the artist, I suppose. But, the boy doesn' ; t look like me. And, I mean it' ; s representative of, that' ; s the way I think about it. I' ; m wondering still, why me, because I' ; ve never had any notoriety whatsoever concerning that picture. That picture was in the paper, but many other people were too. Many other situations, buses, bombings. HENDRICKS: But they chose to use the little boy at 15 for that statue. GADSDEN: The little boy in age, but not the little boy in size. HENDRICKS: But that' ; s what they chose to do. GADSDEN: That' ; s what they chose. HENDRICKS: How do you feel about it? GADSDEN: Well, it' ; s -- I really don' ; t know how to say it. HENDRICKS: Were you surprised when you found out about it? GADSDEN: I was totally flabbergasted. I didn' ; t know what to think. When I first contacted you I was in Kentucky and I couldn' ; t sleep, so I didn' ; t know what to say. I' ; m still at a loss for words concerning the reasoning because of that, I don' ; t know. HENDRICKS: The mayor of the city chose that to use as a monument for foot soldiers. He chose that picture to be used. We are very proud of it and I hope you will be too. And, now that we know who you are, we can add a name under there. That you were the young boy that the sculpture used. GADSDEN: Well, I' ; m still wondering why after all the information that I had given and all that -- all that does is establish me as a young African boy, which I' ; m not. HENDRICKS: You would prefer being called a Negro? GADSDEN: I prefer being called what I am -- Colored. HENDRICKS: Oh, you prefer the word " ; Colored?" ; GADSDEN: I am. HENDRICKS: Okay. GADSDEN: You see the main thing, the main complaint that I had with the Negro and the Black race is that anytime anyone says ' ; Colored' ; there' ; s that old racial air of, ' ; if you ain' ; t bright enough, you ain' ; t White enough, you ain' ; t Colored.' ; HENDRICKS: So that is your wish? GADSDEN: Colored is mixed race. HENDRICKS: Is there anything else you feel like you want to talk about in a personal manner or anything else that you would like to say before we end this interview? GADSDEN: No. There are many things that I could talk about that make me, that I think about all of this, but that would take too much time. It would take a day or two to really converse and I don' ; t have time to converse and I don' ; t think you do either. HENDRICKS: Yes, you have a plane to catch at 8:25? GADSDEN: Right. HENDRICKS: Okay. Well, it' ; s been a pleasure having you here. I' ; m very grateful to the fact that we could find you and hope that you will come back to the Civil Rights Institute and come back to the park. And, since you' ; re in the photography business now, you need to come back and get some shots of that after we put your name on there. GADSDEN: I think I will, but the photography business that I' ; m in is rather rough and difficult as a matter of subject material and I' ; m selling. If I were working with some company, it would be different, but I freelance, so wherever I can sell, whatever I can sell is what I have to do. That' ; s why I drive a truck, also. That' ; s the only way to make sure money. That' ; s the only way to earn a living at. But, although I' ; ve studied, I' ; ve become very good at it. Oh, there' ; s that racial attitude, too, that " ; if you' ; re not White, you' ; ve got less of a chance." ; And, that' ; s me. I' ; ve got less of a chance than anything. HENDRICKS: It' ; s been a pleasure and we hope you come back to see us. Again, thank you for the interview. GADSDEN: Fine. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=WLGadsden1996.xml WLGadsden1996.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Walter Lee Gadsden
Description
An account of the resource
Walter Lee Gadsden discusses growing up and experiencing discrimination in Birmingham before getting involved in the Movement. Mr. Gadsden's likeness and actions as a foot soldier inspired the statue of the young boy demonstrating at BCRI.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
19960525G
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department
Atlanta (Ga.)--Race relations
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1996-05-25
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/d74f72237ae50eb4b5996cca14d675e4.jpg
a6a880aff6fba6a053901b1b75bf23a4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Horace Huntley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Virginia Volker
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=VVolker1996.xml
Interview Keyword
This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are
included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
Pizitz (Department store)
Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 June 26, 1996 Virginia Volker 19960626V 1:03:34 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Meaghan Cash Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham SNCC Pizitz (Department store) Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Virginia Volker Horace Huntley Video 1:|10(8)|33(3)|46(12)|62(4)|72(8)|83(14)|101(7)|117(11)|130(13)|142(4)|158(11)|170(10)|183(14)|192(14)|207(5)|223(16)|236(4)|253(12)|270(13)|293(2)|305(5)|321(4)|333(1)|344(1)|357(9)|369(12)|400(1)|412(9)|429(12)|441(5)|451(13)|468(4)|481(3)|494(1)|506(9)|523(6)|536(12)|548(11)|565(7)|588(5)|604(2)|614(4)|630(8)|653(6)|668(13)|680(2)|698(10)|706(4)|721(16)|734(2)|749(6)|765(11)|781(11)|798(15)|811(3)|822(11)|835(6)|848(10)|860(9)|870(10)|882(7)|899(3)|913(7) 0 https://youtu.be/dlMtG3Ti9xo YouTube video English 22 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Virginia Volker Dr. Horace Huntley opens up the interview by introducing Ms. Volker. Lawson Community College Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil rights movement ; Miles College 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute 33.481, -86.9089 17 Miles College https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI homepage 111 Early Life and Family Background Where were you born? Ms. Volker discusses her upbringing and family life as a young child. She also discusses her family's history. Education ; Free State of Winston ; Homestead Acts ; Tenant Farming ; Wilson's Raiders Civil War ; Jasper (Ala.) ; Walker County (Ala.) ; Winston County (Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI homepage 490 Remembering Race Relations as a Child Do you remember any relationships with Blacks in your childhood? Ms. Volker comments on race relations in her community as a child. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Jasper (Ala.) ; Race relations ; Sylacauga (Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI homepage 725 Growing up with Siblings and Early Education You were the oldest of three children and so you were sort of the trailblazer for you two siblings. Ms. Volker discusses growing up with younger siblings and remembers her early school days in Jasper, Alabama. Religion Christmas ; Early childhood education ; Hanukkah ; Jasper (Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI homepage 897 Becoming Aware of Social Justice Issues You said you moved from Jasper to Sylacauga. Did your family move? Ms. Volker discusses becoming aware of social justice issues while in High School. Beta Club ; Freedom Fighters ; High School ; Public Libraries ; Supreme Court ; United Methodist Church African Americans--Segregation ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka ; Jasper (Ala.) ; Methodist Youth Fellowship (U.S.) ; Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 ; NAACP Collection (Library of Congress) ; Sylacauga (Ala.) ; Walker County (Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI homepage 1569 Visiting Birmingham and Experience with the Klan in Sylacauga How often did you come to Birmingham? Ms. Volker remembers visiting Birmingham and an experience she had with with the Ku Klux Klan. Klan Parade ; Ku Klux Klan Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham-Southern College ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Sylacauga (Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI homepage 1757 Attending College and Becoming Involved with the Movement After you then finished high school in 1958, what did you do? Did you go to college? Ms. Volker relates her experiences while attending college and becoming involved with the Civil Rights Movement. Brotherhood Tea ; Dean Healey ; First Methodist Church ; Integration ; Protests ; Sit-ins SNCC ; Stillman College (Tuscaloosa, Ala.) ; Tuscaloosa (Ala.) ; University of Alabama 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI homepage 2371 Involvement with the Movement after Undergraduate School So in 1963? Ms. Volker discusses her involvement and experiences with the Movement after graduating from the University of Alabama. 6th Avenue Baptist Church ; Demonstrations ; Paul Greenberg ; Protests ; Thurgood Methodist Church 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement ; National guard ; Pizitz (Department store) ; U.S. states--Race relations 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI homepage 3426 Life in Birmingham after Graduate School What happens in the life of Virginia Volker after 1963 and '64? Ms. Volker describes her life in Birmingham after completing graduate school and continuing her involvement with the Civil Rights Movement. Annie Crouse ; Deenie Drew ; Ester Brown ; Friendship in Action ; Helen Lewis ; Pals for American Women ; Peggy Fuller ; Sally Davis ; Unitarian Church Birmingham (Ala.) ; United States--Race relations 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI homepage 3701 Conclusion of Interview Virginia, we've taken about an hour and a half and I certainly appreciate your time. Maybe we need to just do this again some time, but I want to thank you for coming. Interview is concluded. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history interview Oral History Virginia Volker discusses her involvement with the Movement throughout her education at the University of Alabama at Birmingham. She went on to be actively involved in public education and community politics in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: We are here with Virginia Volker for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 26, 1996. Thank you Ms. Volker for taking time out of your schedule to come and sit with us today to talk about your experiences in growing up in Birmingham and how you have related to the Movement. It' ; s a pleasure having you here. Tell me a bit about yourself. What are you doing now? VOLKER: Thank you, Dr. Huntley. I really appreciate all the work you' ; re doing in this arena. Currently I' ; m a faculty member at the University of Alabama at Birmingham in the Biology Department. I teach anatomy, pathophysiology and a number of the health sciences. In addition to that I have been involved in a number of community projects and this summer, as part of my UAB work, I' ; m also serving as Campus Coordinator for the UAB/Miles College/Lawson Community College/Titusville 2000 Project, which we have a HUD grant that we are operating from. HUNTLEY: Is it Ms. Volker or Dr. Volker? VOLKER: How about M-S. Ms. I don' ; t have a doctorate. I have two masters degrees. HUNTLEY: Well, two masters ought to add up to a doctorate. VOLKER: Well, I' ; ll be glad to take it if you take the salary with it, but it doesn' ; t work that way. HUNTLEY: Where were you born? VOLKER: I was born in Jasper, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Were your parents originally from Jasper? VOLKER: My parents were from the Walker County area, yes. HUNTLEY: Brothers and sisters, how many do you have? VOLKER: I have one brother and one sister. They are both younger. I' ; m the oldest child. HUNTLEY: Your mother and father, tell me just a bit about their educational background. VOLKER: It was rather limited as far as formal education. My mother said she went to school three days. I don' ; t know what the truth is. My father had more education, but they were certainly part of the rural, come to the small town type people in the Walker County area. Walker County is a very depressed area of the state. Or, it was at that time. My parents come from rather modest means. My father, they liked to say, they were land rich, but money poor. In fact, probably his family had homesteaded there under some of the Homestead Acts that came about before the turn of the century. My mother had a similar background although my grandfather on my mother' ; s side was sometimes a miner. HUNTLEY: Coal miner? VOLKER: Yes, coal miner. Coal was one of the main industries in Walker County. And he also was at times a tenant farmer. On my fathers side what I know about their background is that part of the family were people who were opposing seceding from the union. HUNTLEY: In Walker County? VOLKER: In Walker County. We hear about the Free State of Winston and the efforts that were made in Winston County to try to not join the Union during the Civil War times, but Walker County is essentially next door to Winston County and so there were groups of people in that region, in fact all across north Alabama. And, apparently, some of the slogans in north Alabama around the time that (Inaudible) was building for the Civil War, they were saying that would be a rich man' ; s war, a poor man' ; s fight and very much were opposed joining in with the Confederacy. Supposedly my father' ; s father or my father' ; s grandfather was involved in " ; giving aid and comfort" ; to the Union soldiers. I think it was Wilson' ; s Raiders that came through. I found this out through some genealogical study that they were thought to be sympathizers with the Union and were in fact reimbursed for giving food and whatever else he gave to some of Wilson' ; s Raiders as they came through Walker County. So, I suspect I came from a long line of people that followed their own principals and own values rather than just succumbing to what was going on around them. HUNTLEY: We are very much aware that only 20 to 25% of Whites in the South actually owned slaves. So that meant that 80% basically did not. I' ; m assuming that is what you mean when you talk about this war being a rich man' ; s war. VOLKER: And a poor man' ; s fight because, well, from what I' ; ve read of that history is that it was the more affluent, south Alabama people that had slaves. You didn' ; t have the big farms, the big plantations in Walker County. They were coal miners and small farmers. So they had no need for slaves really. At least some historians I' ; ve read portrayed what was happening in Alabama around that time, that there was actually a fight going on between North Alabama and South Alabama. I don' ; t know if you read much of that. HUNTLEY: And, that' ; s a continuing struggle. VOLKER: It certainly is. And, in fact I think nationwide we' ; re sometimes still fighting the Civil War. At least some of us here in the south. HUNTLEY: Tell me just a bit about your upbringing. What do you remember about your childhood? VOLKER: I was reared in Jasper. I lived in the town for awhile. My father was a Methodist minister, kind of a circuit rider. He was also a small businessman. He was a barber. I understand before I was born he had a grocery store. My mother didn' ; t work part of the time and, then part of the time she worked as an LPN, a Licensed Practical Nurse. And, as we got older she worked as a pie baker. HUNTLEY: A pie baker? VOLKER: Yes, in local restaurants. She was a pastry cook I think was the title she used. So, I had a rather quiet, very conventional childhood in many ways. I went to church a great deal. HUNTLEY: Well, with your father being a minister. VOLKER: I went to the Methodist church when the doors were opened and when the doors were closed also. And my parents also were very insistent that we go to other churches in the community. We also went to churches with our various relatives when we visited with them all over Walker County area. So I know a lot about all of the small town churches. That was part of my socialization and my outreach and being more involved. HUNTLEY: Do you remember any relationships with Blacks in your childhood? VOLKER: I do. I do, interestingly enough. I' ; ve wondered often why I would be so conscious of race because I felt like a number of my peers were not, but it may be because where I lived within Jasper there was a very clear dividing line. There was a railroad track and on one side was the White community and on the other side was the Black community. I lived close enough to the Black community, on my side of the railroad track, that I could sit in my front yard and if I really looked and peered closely, I could see some of what was happening across the track, which was in some ways forbidden territory. But my father had interactions with people in the Black community. He raised goats supposedly to have goat milk because he thought that was healthy. And, apparently he had some friends in the Black community that raised goats. So, one of the things we would do, is we would go across the tracks, and sometimes I would get up to go with him to visit and look at goats. If my mother and I went along we obviously interacted with whole families, so I became very aware that there were differences. I think subconsciously I picked up that people behaved differently around the race issue. I was very aware of that at an early age. HUNTLEY: Did you have Blacks working in your home for your mother and your father? VOLKER: On very rare occasions. We were at a low enough income that we didn' ; t have that very often. But sometimes there would be Black people come by and help do odd jobs around the house. HUNTLEY: How old were you at that particular time? I know you lived in Jasper and you would eventually move to Sylacauga? VOLKER: I did not move to Sylacauga until I was in high school. HUNTLEY: Did you ever have any Black friends? As I grew up in Birmingham we actually had White friends because they lived on one street and they lived on the other. Was that the same case with you in Jasper? VOLKER: I really don' ; t recall that. I remember being aware of interacting briefly with Black children. (Inaudible) and I would go in the Black community with my father. One of the things that I remember is, I guess it was very typical of Black community of the South at that time. But, what I as a child found fascinating was, that people had gold fish ponds in their home. If you didn' ; t live in that area and if you don' ; t know anything about that, you cannot imagine why anybody would just dig out and make a home crafted gold fish pond. But, a lot of people did and I guess it was a kind of art that people in the Black community engaged in more than the White community as far as having gold fish. So I remember going in the Black community and observing the gold fish and there would be Black children around that I would interact with. There were probably Black children that passed my house that we may have interacted with some, but I don' ; t have a deep recollection of that like you have and like I' ; ve heard other people talking about. HUNTLEY: You were the oldest of three children and so you were sort of the trail blazer for your two siblings. How did that impact upon your growing up, having two younger siblings? Did you have to help around the house? VOLKER: I did. But I was five years old before my brother was born. So, it really got ingrained in me that sense of being an only child and I probably had that mentality of being the only child, but also with a brother and sister. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your school days and growing up in Jasper? VOLKER: I loved school. I guess that' ; s why I still work in a school. I really enjoyed going to school. I remember my first grade teacher, Miss Hollis. I can' ; t say she taught me to read because my mother had taught me to read before I went to school, but I certainly remember her. I remember it was an all White school. Race was not a particular issue at that time. I don' ; t remember anything about that being discussed in school. There was one race -- there was White folks. I remember being aware of religious differences in that there were several Jewish children in my class with me throughout my elementary school career and I know that it must have been very difficult for the Jewish children in Jasper because it was a very small community and their parents really worked hard to help their children be included. I remember the parents of one of my Jewish friends always brought goodies to school for Christmas. And, so we always talk about Christmas and we did talk about Hanukkah, which I think was probably unusual for an Alabama small town school in the 1940s. But, I think that has to do with the perseverance and the dedication of some of the Jewish parents had at that time and probably the openness that some of the school teachers had. So I was aware that they were different. Something was different about them. They didn' ; t celebrate Christmas, but yes, they did celebrate Christmas and we certainly interacted and visited some in each other' ; s homes. HUNTLEY: You said you moved from Jasper to Sylacauga. Did your family move? VOLKER: My family moved to Sylacauga when I was in high school, which would have been in 1954, the Supreme Court decision year. I remember being aware about that time of what was happening in the world around me. HUNTLEY: You remember being aware of Brown v. The Board of Education? VOLKER: I was aware of that having taken place. HUNTLEY: How did that impact upon your environment? VOLKER: Not at all at that point. I remember hearing a lot of discussion about those Supreme Court judges and how everybody hated them. I think one of the things that probably was a real support and helpful to me in growing up was the ability to go to the library and the fact that my parents always encouraged me to go to the library, took me to the library. The public libraries of that time, and this would have been in Jasper, before I actually moved to Sylacauga, the public libraries did have a lot of the books, the autobiographies of boys and girls who made good. The books did include stories of Sojourner Truth and Harriet Tubman and George Washington Carver, those kind of classic people, as well the Lucretia Motts and the Elizabeth Cady Stantons and I ended up reading a lot of biography and for whatever hundreds of reasons, I very quickly identified with that group of people and felt a kinship. HUNTLEY: What group of people are you talking about? VOLKER: The group of people whose biographies that I would be reading as a child. The freedom fighters, the abolitionists, those groups of people. So, I became aware of struggles around justice issues and the door was not perfect. It probably just had something to do with just being White and Southern. I think there' ; s a White Southern mentality of a kind of complex of somewhere between inferiority and defiance that sort of is in the milieu around us -- that we grew up with in Walker County. HUNTLEY: You are saying that these individuals who were revolutionaries, you were sort of attracted to them. At what point in your life do you think that was taking place? Or when did you first realize it? VOLKER: I think that must have been somewhere between the 5th grade and the 7th and 8th grade. That would have been early 1950s. HUNTLEY: Was that different than your peers? VOLKER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you stand out as a result of that? Were you one of those people who was looked at by your peers as being different? VOLKER: I felt different. I was a child that made good grades and I minded the teacher and I was sometimes called ' ; the teachers pet' ; and ' ; the preacher' ; s kid' ; . HUNTLEY: A goody two-shoes? VOLKER: Goody two-shoes, that was me. I carried my Bible. It didn' ; t particularly bother me. I' ; m not aware of it bothering me at that point. HUNTLEY: How did your peers treat you as a result of the way they perceive you? VOLKER: At that point, I don' ; t recall any problem. HUNTLEY: Were you involved in extra-curricular activities? VOLKER: In high school I did. In junior high school, not very much. In fact, if they existed, I don' ; t recall them. And, also my family was very private. My family was into protecting me in some respects so they probably encouraged me staying at home reading, rather than being involved with whatever was happening around me. So hence, my link to the world was what I was getting on the news media, on the newspapers and what I was reading. HUNTLEY: Did that change when you got in high school? VOLKER: Oh, that changed in high school. I deliberately made an effort to get more involved to make friends. HUNTLEY: What were you involved in in high school that sticks out in your mind? VOLKER: I remember Beta Club. HUNTLEY: Beta Club was what? VOLKER: An honor society. HUNTLEY: Was that math honors? VOLKER: Just in general honors. I was active in the church during my high school years then. The Methodist Youth Fellowship (MYF). I remember during that time the winds of change were certainly upon us and issues were discussed in my church. I remember one incident, several interesting discussions around when I was still in high school. The literature that we were receiving from the Methodist headquarters nationally had pictures of Black and White people sitting together. And there were big controversies about could we use this literature with our young people. HUNTLEY: It would have an impact upon the way you viewed the world? VOLKER: That' ; s right. Maybe they were right. It would. It did. But just the fact that it became a controversy and for whatever reason, I immediately thought, " ; Well, there' ; s nothing wrong with this." ; My mother is very conservative acting. A very " ; Don' ; t rock the boat" ; person. My father said it was okay to state your case and stand up. There side would be " ; Yes, it would be okay to use the literature." ; I guess it proved that the predominant group in that church brought to bear that it would prevail because I remember we did use that kind of literature. HUNTLEY: Was this the Methodist church? VOLKER: The United Methodist Church -- North Alabama Conference. HUNTLEY: Why did you move from Jasper to Sylacauga? VOLKER: By that time my father was not being a minister anymore and it was a better business opportunity for him. He was a barber. HUNTLEY: Were there any incidents in high school, not necessarily racial, that sort of stand out in your mind, about your experiences in high school? There are any number of things that I can think of that I was involved in during high school days that probably had an impact upon my going in one direction or another. Do you have any of those? VOLKER: I think probably what was happening nationally was when I was in high school, Sputnik had come along. There was a big effort to build the space ships. We were beginning to engage in the space race. Sputnik was in ' ; 58 when I was a senior. Before that it had been building, so there was a lot of concern that science was important and very much like we are today, that " ; Gee, our students in the United States are going to get left behind in science if we don' ; t do something." ; And, I think because I made good grades in science and I made good grades in everything. But because I made good grades in science I got attention. So I was in science fairs. I got special attention for being the only girl that would take physics in a group of all guys. The teacher was a guy but he was really very nice. I think my high school biology teacher, Miss Heaton, I think that had an impact to have a woman as a science person that I interacted with when I was enjoying science and for her to encourage me. I tend to think that was important because if she had not been there, I don' ; t know, I may have still found my way in science, but that was a kind of way of saying, hey, it' ; s okay for women to be in science. It' ; s okay for us to cut open frogs and look at microscopes and do those things that girls really were not supposed to do then. HUNTLEY: There were a number of racial issues were taking place because, as you said Brown v. Board happened in 1954. In 1955 they had the Montgomery Bus Boycott. In 1956 we had the outlawing of the NAACP in the state and, then the development of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. And, of course, in ' ; 56 you had a number of bombings with Shuttlesworth, was that in any way in your awareness? VOLKER: I think I was aware of it in reading about it, but Sylacauga was 50 miles and worlds away from Birmingham. Sylacauga was very much a predominantly White city. There was a Black population but it was almost invisible to me at that point. I didn' ; t even know where the Black schools were, it was that kind of community that I was moving in at that time. I do remember being aware of the bus boycotts and feeling a kinship with that struggle. I remember one of the times riding a bus from Sylacauga to Birmingham and deliberately going to the back of the bus to sit, to show my identification with that. And some of the older Black people that were sitting in the back, said, " ; Honey, you go up there and sit." ; I said, " ; Oh, no, I' ; ll just sit here, I' ; m fine." ; It was my naivete. But, again it was like I was saying, " ; Hey, I' ; m identifying with this." ; Although I wasn' ; t saying that and probably because I was young and a female, you could do those things. Whereas I think had I been a guy and did that there might have been a problem. And certainly if it had been the reverse, if a young Black woman had sat down in the front of the bus that would have been a major problem. HUNTLEY: Did any of the Whites on the bus say anything to you about sitting in the back? VOLKER: I don' ; t remember. I think they just ignored it. HUNTLEY: How often did you come to Birmingham? VOLKER: Every now and then, but not a tremendous amount of time. But, I do remember doing that on several occasions. HUNTLEY: Were you alone when you came to Birmingham? VOLKER: Yes, I would be alone. HUNTLEY: Why would you come to Birmingham? What would be the occasions for you to come? VOLKER: I don' ; t know. I think sometimes I came up to look at the schools here. I remember going to Birmingham Southern a weekend, that kind of thing. HUNTLEY: After you finished high school, what was it around 1960? VOLKER: I finished high school in ' ; 58. HUNTLEY: Okay. Things are really heating up. VOLKER: Yes. But, let me tell you before we finish with the Sylacauga experience. I remember that the Klan was very active there. It was Klan territory. My family was far removed from it but I do remember one day, a Saturday afternoon in the summer, there was a Klan parade downtown. I remember stumbling on it. I think my mother was with me and a girl friend. I remember my girl friend and I started throwing rocks and yelling and the Klan parade, calling them cowards or something like that. And, my mother was just freaking out. It was like, " ; Come on, you' ; re going to get us killed. Let' ; s go. Let' ; s go." ; And she was pulling us away and getting us home from that incident. I remember her talking about being fearful that they would know who we were and that we would have a cross burned on our house or our house burned down. HUNTLEY: Was there ever an ... VOLKER: That never happened. Again, we were White kids. You know your White kids could throw some rocks, you know there is some White privilege going on there. If it had been Black kids throwing rocks, that wouldn' ; t have been the same. HUNTLEY: Were there any reactions from the Klan? VOLKER: They just sort of looked at us. HUNTLEY: Were they hooded? VOLKER: Yes. They just sort of chalked it up to children' ; s pranks. They didn' ; t understand the depth of our feelings about that. HUNTLEY: Now that you mention it, I can remember my aunt lived in Columbus, Georgia so we would always go 280. And in the Sylacauga area, on several occasions the Klan was stopping cars, asking for donations. But, I remember when we got to them they didn' ; t ask us for anything, they just let us through. I remember that because I remember coming across the mountain and through the (Inaudible). So, that' ; s interesting that you actually saw the Klan and you were incensed by what they represented so you reacted to that. After you then finished high school in 1958, what did you do? Did you go to college.VOLKER: I went to college at the University of Alabama at Tuscaloosa. HUNTLEY: Now, this is in the heat of things as well. VOLKER: What I basically remember around the civil rights issues in college were during my junior and senior year was having my own group of friends that believed like I believed. That we thought the Civil Rights Movement was the way to go and we were beginning to feel left out in Tuscaloosa. We were reading about college students in other places making their protests and expressing themselves and here we were sitting in dull old Tuscaloosa, Alabama on the university campus. Somehow by the time I was beginning my senior year, some member of my group had a contact with Stillman College, which was the small, private Black college in Tuscaloosa. We ended up somehow arranging for several of us to go from the university campus to Stillman campus. We met and we called it a brotherhood tea. By that time we were aware that there were brotherhood Sundays and brotherhood teas. That' ; s was what people of good will in churches tried to do then. If anybody knows what a brotherhood tea is, it' ; s when Black and White people can stand in a room and they drink their tea and the world didn' ; t fall apart because they were in the same room doing something social together. And, that sounds silly today, but... HUNTLEY: But those kinds of meetings were illegal at the time. VOLKER: They were illegal and it was a very high anxiety type of event for people to do. Certainly for White people, probably for the Black people. In fact, I remember one of my classmates, back to Sylacauga, one of my classmates was a minister' ; s son in Sylacauga and somewhere around that time, they had a brotherhood Sunday tea at the First Methodist Church in Sylacauga and after that there was a cross burned in front of the church. HUNTLEY: It was suggested that you went from the University of Alabama to Stillman, did you ever have students from Stillman to come to the University of Alabama? VOLKER: Didn' ; t do that. We didn' ; t do that. We were prudent, pragmatic or coward, whichever way you want to talk about. But, we ended up a group about a dozen or 15 of us from the University of Alabama campus that we knew each other and we felt strongly that we should be doing our share to promote Civil Rights. We started meeting with some people at Stillman and I' ; m not sure how that group of students got pulled together, but we interacted enough that we became friends with some people. HUNTLEY: And this was always on Stillman campus? VOLKER: On Stillman campus. We talked about coming over to the University of Alabama campus, but always the decision was made - no. HUNTLEY: In 1960 demonstrations were going on all over the South with the sit-in struggle. Of course starting in North Carolina and, then coming into South Carolina and Georgia. Was there an effort in Tuscaloosa? VOLKER: We did that. I know there was more happening than what I was involved in, but our small group of college students of Stillman and University, we decided that we wanted to do some sit-ins at churches. I remember that we planned several and I remember one I participated in we participated in the Westminster Center, probably it was like the students for Presbyterian. Or it may have been the Presbyterian Church. It was somewhere nearby our campus. We carefully planned our agenda, how we were going to have some Black students to show up and, if they got in, we would see what was going to happen. And, then we were going to come and be their support with these students from the University campus. And, interestingly enough at that particular church, the Westminster campus, they seated the Black students. HUNTLEY: What year was this? VOLKER: It must have been ' ; 61. And, so we, as the White students in there, well, we were coming in, so we didn' ; t know anything else to do but go down and sit beside them. So, obviously we were all together. And, I remember afterward some elders of the church came out. Some were obviously University faculty. They actually spoke and were pleasant. So it was like no contest, no problem. We were both pleased and somewhat shocked at that reception. If it had been another kind or reception heavens knows what we would have done, because we really were not in contact with any national organization at that time. As we continued to meet we did, somehow somebody in the group had contact with a SNCC person. Several of us went to a SNCC conference in Atlanta. It must have been in ' ; 61 or ' ; 62. I found that very interesting. I still have some of the literature from that conference and actually know some of those people from that conference now. HUNTLEY: Well, that' ; s really the beginning of SNCC. It was organized in 1960. VOLKER: Yes, it was a very young organization then. HUNTLEY: And this is at the point where young, White college students were coming down from the North to get involved with SNCC, particularly in Mississippi. Was there a SNCC organization in Tuscaloosa? VOLKER: No. Not to my knowledge. But some of the people with SNCC at that Atlanta conference was just very pleased that they had some Alabama students there. Apparently we were rarities. HUNTLEY: What did you do after that? VOLKER: We continued to have our meetings, always on Stillman campus. We had a few socials. We talked about what all should be done. A lot of talk. A lot of building some friendships with each other. A lot of long night phone conversations. We always said it was a source of excitement if guys from Stillman could call the dorm, disguise their voice and ask to speak to one of the White girls in the dorm without anybody recognizing that he was Black. And, I guess, vice versa, we would call to their dorms. Toward the end of my senior year, most of us were juniors, seniors, and some graduate students, someone got wind of what we were doing and called our activities to the attention to the University of Alabama authorities. The women on our side got called in by the Dean of Women and the men got called in by the Dean of Men. HUNTLEY: What was the gender make up of the two groups? VOLKER: Probably a few more women than men. I remember Dean Healey was the dean and she proceeded to tell us how she really understood our desires to be involved in what we were doing, but that it was not safe and the University had to watch out for our safety. They were afraid we were going to get hurt by the Klan and I' ; m sure that' ; s really how they were feeling. They really wanted us to stop doing that and that the University was going to integrate soon, but they didn' ; t want any problems until the University did integrate. They asked us to not go. HUNTLEY: Did you stop? VOLKER: They did the threat of " ; You know, all of you have such good records, it would be a pity, since you' ; re so close to graduation." ; They didn' ; t say they would throw us out, but it was the threat of and we were really scared. So all of us on our side of the campus said we would not do it anymore, that we understood. What we did was to proceed to be more covert. HUNTLEY: Did the telephone calls continue? VOLKER: We tried to make them less frequent, but we still did it and we still visited. I remember I guess it was about the last week of school, we decided to be more open. We just very boldly went out and, didn' ; t do our little circuitous routes to get there. HUNTLEY: Did any of those relationships last after school? VOLKER: Yes, I maintained contact with some of the people until even the past decade. HUNTLEY: So you were finishing undergraduate school in ' ; 62? VOLKER: Right. HUNTLEY: So in 1963? VOLKER: Then I was in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: So you here during the demonstrations of ' ; 63? VOLKER: ' ; 63 was a very momentous year. HUNTLEY: Where did you live? VOLKER: I lived on the Southside. I lived sometimes in the dorm, which is now where the Radisson Hotel is. And, then sometimes I lived in an apartment building on 17th and 10th South, in an apartment building, which is now Ronald McDonald House. It did not look as nice as it does now. But, I was in graduate school in the medical school. I was studying human anatomy then. Far removed from what was happening in Birmingham at the time, but everybody was discussing what was happening with the Civil Rights Movement. Only there were other terms for it then in the White community. HUNTLEY: What were those terms? VOLKER: Let' ; s see, what were there. " ; All this Nigger business." ; " ; All this outside agitation." ; " ; Communist Plot." ; Those kinds of real derogatory terms. HUNTLEY: Was that the general feeling of people that you were associated with at the time? VOLKER: That was the feeling of some people. There were some people that were more thoughtful. There were some people that greatly " ; empathized with the Negro" ; at that time, but they just weren' ; t ready for all these changes. They needed 20 more years. They were going to set race relations back 20 years was what was being said. I remember some of my professors saying that. It burst my bubble. I thought when I was in graduate school I was going to find people that were super intelligent and agreed with everything that I agreed with. It didn' ; t work that way. There was a lot of discussion. I often found myself on the opposite side of the discussion and being very outspoken. I remember knowing about the marches downtown. I know one time I was downtown and I was around where the 5 & ; 10 cent stores were, Woolworth' ; s probably. They were coming out and I said, " ; Oh, no, I' ; m going to be in the middle of this." ; I really wanted to go join and feeling very torn between, " ; Well, gee I ought to go and be part of this sit-in or march or whatever was happening." ; But, then, " ; I can' ; t do that I' ; ll get thrown out of school. I can' ; t do that I' ; ll get my head bashed in. I can' ; t do this, I don' ; t know these people." ; You know I was feeling really torn. And, finally I thought I just better leave or I' ; m going to go and join in and I didn' ; t know what was going to happen to me. I remember feeling very torn and really identifying with what they were doing, but not knowing how to interact at that point. HUNTLEY: You didn' ; t have that support group? VOLKER: I didn' ; t have my support group. I didn' ; t have my few friends in Birmingham. But, as my year went on, I did find a few people that felt more like I did and ended up being involved with a group of young people that were meeting at Thurgood Methodist Church. HUNTLEY: This is in ' ; 63? VOLKER: This is in ' ; 63. HUNTLEY: During the demonstrations or after the demonstrations? VOLKER: I think it would have been during the demonstration time. Yes, it would have been ' ; 63 and ' ; 64. HUNTLEY: The demonstrations that are known worldwide would have happened in April and May of ' ; 63. Now, there were continuing demonstrations, but these were the biggies. Were you meeting at Thurgood at that time? VOLKER: We did meet at Thurgood. That may have been more into May and June, a little bit later. And I remember from that we did do a few minor sit-ins. They weren' ; t the massive things. HUNTLEY: Downtown? VOLKER: Downtown. I don' ; t know how much we were really linked in with any greater movement but we felt passionate. I remember we went to a Pizitz. One of the department stores had a counter and we decided to integrate and go. We paired up Black/White, Black/White and we sort of went in and monopolized the stools and they just simply closed the counter down. They didn' ; t call the police to us or anything. So, when they didn' ; t call the police and didn' ; t do anything, after a while it gets to be a waiting game, so we left. HUNTLEY: Were you served? VOLKER: No. They just simply closed the counter, said, " ; We' ; re not serving." ; They left. But they wouldn' ; t be confrontive, other than just they weren' ; t going to serve. " ; We' ; re closed." ; " ; It' ; s passed our opening hours." ; Even though we knew it was not. I continued to be involved and got more acquainted with a group of people here in Birmingham. Among those was a number of people around the Unitarian Church. I remember once incident that was really chilling to me was -- this would have been in the summer of ' ; 63. It probably would have been after some of the meetings at Thurgood or that same group of people. Some of us had also been down to the Gaston Motel. I didn' ; t have a car. This was when graduate students were really poor and some friends were bringing me home. There were several of us, Black and White, male and female. There was an attorney with us, I believe it was Paul Greenberg was with us at that time. He was one of those outside agitators as they were always called. Whoever owned the car was being the taxi and taking us all home. I was brought home to 17th Street South and as we were almost in front of my apartment, the police stopped us and wanted to know what we were doing. We just said, " ; Well, we' ; ve been to a meeting and we' ; re going home." ; First we were very tactful. We all had to get out of the car and, then the police really began to harass us. I felt what was interesting, it was very similar or certainly it reminded me of one of the scenes in Mississippi Burning, where people were stopped by the police. HUNTLEY: So was this both Blacks and Whites in the car? VOLKER: Blacks and Whites in the car. HUNTLEY: Black men and White women? VOLKER: There were Black men and White women and White men and Black women. This was before the days you wore seat belts so there was probably a lot of us in the car. HUNTLEY: Were there any incidents as a result of that? VOLKER: ...and so the policeman told the Black guys, " ; You know better than to be hanging around with these White folks. They' ; re going to get you in trouble." ; There were several policemen and one of the policemen told the White guy that was the attorney with us, Paul, " ; You even smell like a Nigger, what are you doing here." ; And, to me, he started harassing me. I guess they were implying I had sex with some Black guy. And it was like, " ; What do you want, a Nigger baby? Is that why you are hanging around with these folks?" ; I was being a really wise guy at that time and I said, " ; Well, if I had a baby, it wouldn' ; t matter what color it was." ; So, then he started bristling and he said, " ; Your daddy know you' ; re here. " ; So I proceeded to tell him my father was a minister and my father approved of Black and White people as the way Jesus wanted us to live, in an integrated society." ; And I could just see this policeman' ; s face was getting red because all these were White policemen. They were just getting redder in the face. It was even practically glowing in the dark. I could just feel him getting ready. He put his hand on his side like he was going to pull his gun or his billy club. And I thought, " ; I am going to get my head bashed in. We' ; re all going to get hurt if I don' ; t stop my wise cracks." ; And, so I said, " ; Officer, we' ; ve been to a meeting, it was about church and I' ; m going in this house right here because this is where I live." ; And I took off. They didn' ; t try to stop me and told the guys and the other women in the car " ; and go on about your business" ; and followed them to the next stop where they let some people off and, then did not harass them anymore. I guess in the meantime they had asked to see everybody' ; s IDs. So we all had fears that we were either going to lose our jobs or get thrown out of school. But, nothing happened from that but it really made me aware of how strongly people felt and how, when the authority does not protect you in expressing these basic freedoms of interaction, that it' ; s really scary and it' ; s really wrong. And, so that' ; s one of the things I remember that really made an imprint. And the more I encountered those kinds of incidences, the more I was determined to express myself because my view was just as important as anybody else' ; s, was my attitude. HUNTLEY: You mentioned something about the A. G. Gaston Motel. Did you go there with that group? VOLKER: As I recollect we had probably gone there after a meeting at Thurgood because A. G. Gaston was about the only place in town that you could go and just socialize after a meeting if you were Black and White. I think to people hearing this after the 60s -- to think about just people being Black and White in a room as leaders. They think what' ; s the big deal about that. But that was really something. HUNTLEY: It was a revolutionary act. VOLKER: It was a revolutionary act. That' ; s a good way to put it. And I remember a number of times going from groups where we were Black and White together, all kinds of people would take it upon themselves to just suddenly begin following you. I remember one time, this would have been later in ' ; 63, maybe even in ' ; 64. HUNTLEY: You said, " ; all kinds of people" ; , what do you mean? VOLKER: I mean, it' ; s just like you would be riding down the street and a group of guys in new cars... HUNTLEY: Whites or Blacks? VOLKER: White. Or rag tag old cars. They decided they were going to follow us to see what we were doing. And, I remember several times being with groups and we were out running people. One time we even got a group to follow us into the police station. Of course, the police were not much help. But we thought, " ; Well, if we drive into the police station here, maybe they' ; ll go away." ; And, they did. HUNTLEY: In August of ' ; 63 the March of Washington took place. VOLKER: I didn' ; t go. I had a test the next week and I felt I had to stay and study. I did not realize, I think I was still too young to realize the importance of the march. I had a number of friends that were going. HUNTLEY: A number of White friends? VOLKER: White and Black friends. And, I remember some of my friends brought me literature from Washington from that event that I still treasure. But, I remember watching it a great deal on TV and saying if there' ; s ever other -- marches since then, when I really feel they' ; re important, and if I can get my finances together, I go. But, I did not go to that one, simply because I was young and did not understand how important it was and I had a test on Monday. HUNTLEY: Well, what did you actually feel about that march? Afterwards you said you were not mature enough to really understand what was happening -- the magnitude of it. But, I' ; m sure as you watched it on TV. VOLKER: As I watched it on TV, it really came home. HUNTLEY: Did you think that this was a pivotal point in the history of race relations in the country? VOLKER: I didn' ; t understand that then, but in retrospect it certainly was. I remember just being very aware of being very supportive of it, having friends that were going. I do remember going on from ' ; 63, the church bombing, which took place then in September. I was still in graduate school and I remember I was home visiting with my family in Sylacauga. HUNTLEY: The morning of the bombing? VOLKER: Yes. Where we first heard about it, we were at a family outing. We were in a car driving around, it was one of those gray September days in Sylacauga. This news flash came over the car radio about it and I was just aghast and thought, " ; This is horrible." ; My parents were just like, " ; Oh, yes, it' ; s bad." ; But I was the one that was really reacting emotionally. I ended up coming back to Birmingham that night. My parents were fearful about things were really bad and maybe we shouldn' ; t go. I told them, " ; I' ; ll be fine. I' ; m going back." ; And I rode the bus back into Birmingham. A friend picked me up at the bus station downtown. I remember it was a really eerie feeling. The streets were almost deserted. HUNTLEY: That was unusual for Birmingham? VOLKER: That was very unusual at that point. There were a lot of military. The National Guard had already been called out by late evening. One of the things that I remember, of course it was on everybody' ; s mind, but one of the things that really touched me was how some people that I had argued with all the time about the importance of the Civil Rights Movement and they were taking opposite views. Some of those people -- my fellow graduate students -- came up to me and they apologized to me for the church bombing. And their feeling was, " ; Well, maybe you' ; re right. Things have gone too far. This was not right. I' ; m sorry this happened, Virginia." ; It' ; s like " ; Why are you telling me?" ; In retrospect, I realize you learn in church you learn about the importance of sacrifice and changing people' ; s behavior. Of course people who study in group psychology talk about that a great deal, but it really clicked in there somewhere that in many ways that was one of the sacrifices and a major sacrifice that helped turn this country around. HUNTLEY: That' ; s interesting that you would say that your friends came to you and in effect apologized to you for the bombing. That meant that in their minds that you were the symbol for that issue or for Black people. VOLKER: I probably was for them because I was one of the few people around -- there were other people around the university like me that were very outspoken, but I guess I was the one that some of these people knew. I know that the funeral for either one or several of the little Black girls was held in 6th Avenue Baptist Church when it was really on 6th Avenue South and I remember being at that and just standing outside with a mob of people and I remember there were several university people there. Mostly some faculty that was there. HUNTLEY: What happens in the life of Virginia Volker after 1963 and ' ; 64? You have gone through graduate school. You' ; re more mature. Do you remain in Birmingham? VOLKER: I stayed in Birmingham. I ended up getting married and getting involved with the Unitarian Church, which was one of the few churches in the White community that was taking a stand for Civil Rights. HUNTLEY: What kind of activities were you involved in with the Unitarian Church in relationship to race? VOLKER: One of the things from that group I got connected with was a group of women called Friendship in Action, which is another interesting story in and of itself. I think that was really significant for me in that I had people like Deenie Drew and Sally Davis, Helen Lewis. Those are just some names that come to the forefront. Some of the White women were Annie Crouse, Peggy Fuller and some other women who are no longer with us. But, Friendship in Action, a lot of that, in retrospect, it was an establishment group, but it was more of a middle class, liberal community group of people. HUNTLEY: What did you do? VOLKER: We said we wanted to be friends and learn to cross racial barriers on a personal level. Putting the term ' ; action' ; in our name meant that we wanted to do more than just talk, that we wanted to make things change in society around us. If I remember correctly, one of the projects that we got involved with, along with the Unitarian Church and a few others, was to have one of the first day care program that was integrated. We helped spearhead that. A lot of it though, it was simply by us talking and the things that we were involved in the community, taking a stand for improved relationships between people. Out of that grew another, more formal organization called Pals for American Women. It was started by Ester Brown in Topeka, Kansas, who had been part of the effort to bring about the ' ; 54 Supreme Court decision. These two groups were very much a middle class women' ; s response to what was happening. We will do things where we are, with women, with children to try to make a good difference in the world. And, Pals for American Women was like, the belief was that if we could get people to hear from their hearts, that that' ; s what will change people. So, we got together our speeches, so to speak and we said we would go as a group -- a White, Anglo-Saxon Protestant, which was called WASP, and a Black woman, usually a Jewish woman and a Catholic woman -- We would go and we would go to various organizations and talk about the impact of bad race relations on our family and ourselves as a way of trying to persuade people to do otherwise and to be more for civil rights and to be more tolerant. That organization survived for about five years and I hope had some good impact. I think it did on the people. I occasionally meet people who remember some of their programs. We also had a woman who was Japanese-American, who had been in a concentration camp in the Arizona desert when she was young. So, it was a very powerful group for a while. We had some powerful stories that we felt could touch people' ; s hearts and make a big difference. That was very much a women' ; s response and involvement. HUNTLEY: Virginia, we' ; ve taken about an hour and a half and I certainly appreciate your time. Maybe we need to just do this again some time, but I want to thank you for coming. VOLKER: Maybe we can talk about some other things. HUNTLEY: Sure. VOLKER: I' ; ve tried to pick out some highlights and some things that people can identify with more. I think one of the things I really learned from the Civil Rights Movement. Well, first of all I just feel very fortunate that I was born in a time and a place where this was happening. I feel very privileged to have been in Birmingham during that momentous year of ' ; 63 and I think it taught me the power of people, that people can make a difference, that we' ; re not powerless pawns totally. One of the things I learned that only one person can only do one person' ; s part, but if groups of people work together smart, we can make a big difference. And, I also learned some things about the power of non-violence and trying to reach people' ; s hearts instead of just their heads or, of course, their bodies. Learning that and knowing that and practicing it is more difficult though. HUNTLEY: In an exciting place at an exciting time. VOLKER: It really was. I was fortunate. HUNTLEY: Thank you, Virginia. VOLKER: But, it was also sad. HUNTLEY: Sure. I appreciate your time. VOLKER: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=VVolker1996.xml VVolker1996.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Virginia Volker
Description
An account of the resource
Virginia Volker discusses her involvement with the Movement throughout her education at the University of Alabama at Birmingham. She went on to be actively involved in public education and community politics in Birmingham.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
19960626V
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
SNCC
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1996-06-26
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/dec7fe95d0b40c8d94fe79a1b886e41f.jpg
8ec72dc13d64d8e9c478911d0f47deb7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Horace Huntley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Sheyann Webb Christburg
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=SWChristburg1998.xml
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 January 29, 1998 Sheyann Webb Christburg Interviewed on January 29, 1998 19980129C 01:07:19 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Raines Whittaker Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) Tuskegee University Sheyann Webb Christburg Horace Huntley Video 1:|14(10)|40(3)|54(1)|76(3)|93(9)|107(5)|117(9)|129(11)|141(14)|152(10)|162(8)|171(8)|181(4)|200(11)|210(3)|223(4)|238(4)|249(11)|255(9)|264(1)|275(3)|285(1)|298(5)|307(6)|317(5)|327(12)|341(4)|349(6)|361(1)|370(1)|381(15)|393(10)|404(7)|412(14)|424(9)|434(14)|446(7)|462(4)|474(4)|485(13)|493(15)|501(8)|509(12)|518(4)|527(9)|539(4)|551(6)|559(10)|567(9)|577(17)|587(13)|602(10)|613(7)|626(11)|637(2)|645(3)|656(4)|663(5)|673(3)|680(12)|690(5)|702(12)|720(9)|731(12)|740(8)|749(6)|764(13) 0 https://youtu.be/VKQ8HRRESHU YouTube video English 3 Beginning of Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Sheyann Webb Christburg for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute’s Oral History Project. African American history ; Civil rights movement 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Insitutute http://www.bcri.org BCRI website 42 Family Background Welcome to Birmingham. I just want to start by asking you some general questions about your family. She was born and raised in Selma in a large family that in now spread across the south. African American families ; African American history ; Selma (Ala.) 285 Education Background When you were growing up, your mother and your father were working. As a child in school, she was very involved and not afraid to talk to her teachers and adults, which led to her awareness of the Civil Rights Movement. African American children ; African American teachers and the community ; Civil rights movement 590 Influences Growing Up Even prior to getting involved in the movement, you sound as if you were outgoing and didn’t meet any strangers and you were one of those children who would demand in a child’s way that things would happen the way that you would want them to happen. She was influenced by her teachers as well as from Dr. King. African American children ; African American children--Education ; African American teachers and the community ; Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 781 Consciousness of Segregation You had mentioned as a young child you didn’t understand what was going on. She recognized and questioned segregation as a child. African Americans--Segregation ; African Americans--Social conditions ; United States--Race relations 921 Events Leading to Civil Rights Involvement What are the events that stand out in your mind, more than any other, that relates to your involvement? She was in the middle of the Bloody Sunday march that traumatized her but catalyzed her involvement. Civil rights movement ; Selma (Ala.) ; Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) 1259 Experience of the Bloody Sunday March What was that day like for a seven year old? She recounts details of the traumatic experiences at the Bloody Sunday march. African American churches ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Civil rights movement ; Police brutality--United States ; Selma (Ala.) ; Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) 1556 Involvement of Youth Would you allow your children to be involved in the movement, if there was a movement going on of that nature today? Since she was involved as a child, she would let her children participate in a similar movement and sees importance in youth involvement. African American children ; African Americans--Civil rights ; Civil rights movement 1692 Relation to Dr. Martin Luther King The book Selma, Lord, Selma suggests that there was rather an intimate relationship between yourself, Rachel, and Dr. King. Meeting and talking to Dr. King as a child had a huge influence on her life. African American children ; African American churches ; African Americans--Civil rights--History ; Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Selma (Ala.) 2067 Growing Up near Brown Chapel A.M.E. Church How far was your home from the church? Growing up near Brown's Chapel allowed her to attend it frequently and hear Dr. King speak. African American children ; African American churches ; African Americans--Civil rights--Songs and music ; Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Selma (Ala.) 2230 Memories of Dr. King How many times do you remember seeing Dr. King or being in his presence? She recalls going to Brown's Chapel and hearing Dr. King's speeches. Southern Christian Leadership Conference African American churches ; African Americans--Education ; Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Selma (Ala.) 2320 Involvement without her Parents Did you ever question why your parents were not involved? She became involved in the Movement despite her parent's not being involved. African American children ; African American families ; Civil rights movement 2385 Dr. King's Assassination You were nine or ten when Dr. King was assassinated. She remembers when Dr. King was murdered and how she came to terms with the event and his lose. African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Political assassination 2639 Activities after 1968 After Dr. King was killed you keep saying you grew up, you were growing up in the movement. After Dr. King's murdered she started to focus on school desegregation. African American youth ; African Americans--Segregation ; Civil rights movement ; Segregation in education--United States 2732 Attending a White High School Were you one of the first to go into the White high school? She was one of the first to desegregate one of the white high schools and was able to participate in extracurricular activities. African American youth ; Civil rights movement ; Racism--United States--History--20th century ; Segregation in education--United States ; Selma (Ala.) ; United States--Race relations 2866 School Activities during Integration What was the process of becoming a cheerleader? She persisted at the white high school despite the racism and challenges she faced. African American high school students ; African American youth ; African Americans--Civil rights ; High school students--Political activity ; Racism in education--United States ; Segregation in education--United States ; Selma (Ala.) ; United States--Race relations 3232 Attending Tuskegee University After high school, why didn’t you decide to go to Alabama or Auburn? She appreciated attending Tuskegee, where she finally decided to go into social work. African American college students ; America's historically Black colleges and universities ; College student government ; Tuskegee University 3464 Working with Youth after College As I completed my college education I decided that I would return home with the possibility of still having some interest in politics. She started a program for helping youth, which was self-sufficiently funded. African American social workers ; African American women civic leaders ; African American youth ; Montgomery (Ala.) 3771 Employment at Alabama State University Now what do you do at Alabama State? She is now a student activities coordinator, where, among other places, she has spoken about her experiences in the Civil Rights Movement. African American women authors ; African American women college administrators ; African Americans--Civil rights--History ; Alabama State University ; College students ; Montgomery (Ala.) Oral History Sheyann Webb Christburg discusses marching on Bloody Sunday as a seven-year-old. She co-authored the book Selma, Lord, Selma and participated in desegregating her white high school. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Sheyann Webb Christburg for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I' ; m Dr. Horace Huntley. We' ; re presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is January 29, 1998. Mrs. Christburg, I would like to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule from Alabama State and driving all the way to Birmingham to come and sit and talk with me. CHRISTBURG: Thank you for giving me the opportunity. HUNTLEY: Welcome to Birmingham. I just want to start by asking you some general questions about your family. Your mother and father, were they originally from Selma? CHRISTBURG: Yes, both parents were from Selma. They were born and raised in Selma. There' ; s a little town outside of Selma called Tyler, Alabama and that' ; s basically where my father was born and raised. Then of course, my mom was in the area of Tyler and in between the town of Selma. So, primarily they were born and raised in the Selma area. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? CHRISTBURG: I had eight brothers and sisters. I had a brother to pass and now there' ; s seven of us. HUNTLEY: Where do you fit in with that? Were you the youngest, the oldest? CHRISTBURG: I' ; m the knee baby. HUNTLEY: You' ; re the knee baby? CHRISTBURG: I' ; m the baby girl and I have a baby brother. HUNTLEY: So, there' ; s one younger than you? CHRISTBURG: Yes, my baby brother. HUNTLEY: Alright, I had to get that knee baby together. CHRISTBURG: (Laughing). HUNTLEY: What I' ; m attempting to do is to just get a picture of what it was like growing up in Selma. Let me ask you about your mother and father. What about their education? How much education did they have? CHRISTBURG: My parents were not as fortunate as some others to have had the opportunity to finish high school or even go to college. However, my father went as far as the tenth grade, I believe, and my mother progressed to the eleventh. My parents worked very hard raising us as children. They primarily went as far as they could from an educational standpoint and they had begun to work in the factory to support their family. HUNTLEY: Did both of them work in the factory? CHRISTBURG: They both worked in the factory. My father worked for a table company, which was Cleveland Table Company for so many years. My mother worked for a sewing company, which was Selma Apparel for so many years. Right now they are both retired and I guess trying to enjoy life. HUNTLEY: Do they still live in Selma? CHRISTBURG: They both still live in Selma. HUNTLEY: Where are your brothers and sisters? Do they still live in Selma? CHRISTBURG: I have a brother who' ; s living in Montgomery, well, two brothers that are living in Montgomery. I have a brother that is living out in El Paso, Texas. I have one brother that is presently living in Selma. However, I have a sister that is living in Detroit, Michigan and my oldest sister that is living in Atlanta, Georgia. HUNTLEY: So, you are somewhat scattered then? CHRISTBURG: Yes, we are scattered. HUNTLEY: Do you have family reunions? CHRISTBURG: We have family reunions, but not as often as we used to. As a matter of fact, we are in the process of planning a family reunion coming up [inaudible] of 1998, this year. HUNTLEY: Are you going to have it in Selma? CHRISTBURG: Yes, we will have it in Selma. HUNTLEY: That' ; s big business, lately. CHRISTBURG: It is. Family reunions are great, but the whole agony of the planning aspect of it can become complex sometimes ,but in spite of all that, it is a great thing to do, when you can bring the family together in joy rather than in sorrow, in which most families always come together. HUNTLEY: When you were growing up, your mother and your father were working. You started to school, and you were next to the baby, so all of your brothers and sisters have gone before you. What do you remember about starting first grade in Selma? What school did you attend? CHRISTBURG: I attended Clark Elementary School, which was a school a couple of blocks over from where we lived in the George Washington Carver Project Homes. I could vividly remember my childhood growing up at that time. First of all, me being in the first grade or even in kindergarten I was what you may call unique or active child. I just liked the fact of being involved. Even though I was poor I was the type of child who wanted to be a part of some of the other things that I saw. Some of the others were doing but perhaps couldn' ; t afford to do. HUNTLEY: Like what for instance? CHRISTBURG: For instance, programs that took place at school, I always wanted to be out front or part of it and even though I did not necessarily know that I had a particular talent at that particular time. I just wanted to be a part of whatever was going on at school. I would really try to execute my participation through my teachers. I can remember many times when I was to talk to my momma about me participating in a program. Of course, my parents always supported me with that, but there were a number of times when expenses had come into play. You know, everybody liked the idea of their children participating, but they always wanted them not only to do well, but to look good. Many times, when my mom and my dad expressed the idea of whatever my needs were or my discussing that with them, if they didn' ; t have it, I didn' ; t even hesitate to discuss this with my teachers. That really didn' ; t make a difference with me. As a child I always wanted to be out front and be active. HUNTLEY: And you were not bashful about asking people to assist you in whatever you needed to do? CHRISTBURG: Whatever, whether it was through my teachers and... primarily, I really can attribute a lot to my teachers, as well as my parents, because they had the opportunities to get to know me well as a student. Based upon my track record, with growing up in school from the first grade to the sixth grade it had become a thing that I didn' ; t have to ask, they asked me. Of course, as I grew up from the first grade on through the sixth grade I can vividly remember me participating in a number of programs that really enhanced my development and personal growth. It also made me become the person that I was, and I consider myself a very inquisitive type child. Many people often ask, " ; how did you become involved in the civil rights movement at such an early age?" ; Even though I didn' ; t quite understand what was happening at that time, at that particular age I was so inquisitive that I knew that something was happening unusual and I wanted to be there. As I grew in that movement I became more knowledgeable of what was happening. During that time with all of the turbulence and the confrontations and the challenges and the changes that took place and you being in the midst of it. You know, it wasn' ; t like you just volunteered to do this, it was high risk. It was high risk for adults and even more for children. Even in spite of all of that with what I saw and with what I heard during that time and being right in the midst of it, I wanted to still be a part of that. So oftentimes, even being told or threatened by my parents or even sometimes by my teachers that I shouldn' ; t have been there, or I shouldn' ; t go, I was determined to be there and I that I did. So, you might can call me a disobedient child at that time, but for that particular cause and based upon those circumstances at that time, I' ; m very appreciative and I feel very fortunate to have done what I did as a child and to be a part of that history. HUNTLEY: Even prior to getting involved in the movement, you sound as if you were outgoing and didn' ; t meet any strangers and you were one of those children who would demand in a child' ; s way that things would happen the way that you would want them to happen. Or you would be involved, say for instance, if there was a play at school you would want to be involved in that play. Are there individuals outside of the family that had an impact upon your involvement, teachers particular? CHRISTBURG: I think there were several people who contribute to, impact my life in a most profound way. Not only as to me progressing attitude wise, educational wise, but I think in a real sense...even prior to the movement being active or becoming active in Selma, I think there was something very unique about my personality. Where it derived from, I couldn' ; t really tell you. However, I do believe that the movement really elevated that particular element and I say that because Dr. King impacted my life in a very significant way. First of all, I knew that I was poor but even in spite of me being poor, Dr. King helped me to recognize that because I was poor, regardless of whether I was poor or not...not only me, but those others who were unfortunate in some incidents...that I still could do what I wanted to do as long as I could strive for that. An education was one of the things that Dr. King related to my best friend Rachel, who lived next door to me at that particular time. I didn' ; t know the true importance of it but as constantly as he uttered those words to us each time that he talked to us the more significant and the more I wanted, or the more that I was motivated to want to go to college and want to finish high school. However, as I progressed and as I learned more and experienced more through the movement, I was one of the kids who went back to my instructors to let them know what was going on because of course, as my parents and so many others along with my teachers, if they had become involved in the movement at that particular time they would lose their jobs. Even again in spite of me being disobedient, it was like I was the communicator between my families and my instructors as to what was going on, cause I was there. HUNTLEY: You had mentioned as a young child you didn' ; t understand what was going on. You knew that something was happening and that you needed to be involved in it. Prior to the movement, did you understand segregation, did you understand the condition that the Black community was in relative to the White community? CHRISTBURG: Well, in terms of understanding segregation to the 40s, I may not have prior to the movement, but I knew the difference. HUNTLEY: You knew what you should do and what you shouldn' ; t. CHRISTBURG: I knew the difference between Black and White. HUNTLEY: Did you ever question that? CHRISTBURG: I always questioned that many times. When I had gone to the doctor' ; s office with my parents and we had to sit on one side that always indicated Blacks and then of course, on the other side it indicated Whites. Even with the water fountain and so many other circumstances that we read about today with various restaurants ; even going to various stores in Selma. I can remember that vividly. I always questioned that and even though I was given different responses at different times I knew it was wrong. As I grew in the movement I have become very knowledgeable as to why that was happening. That' ; s one thing that really helped me to grow from an educational stand point, as well as a reality stand point, because being in the midst of it and meeting the challenges, as well as listening to Dr. Martin Luther King and so many other freedom fighters that had come to be a part of that movement and deal with the struggles of segregations and injustices and inequality at that particular time, being a child it was something that didn' ; t take overnight for you to really learn about it if you didn' ; t know it. You could just see it. Each time that I was in the midst of it of course, I had began to recognize and realize exactly what the movement was all about. HUNTLEY: What are the events that stand out in your mind, more than any other, that relates to your involvement? CHRISTBURG: I think the, let me just say this before I answer that. There were many experiences that I had that have stood out in my mind that will never leave me. One of the incidents that happened that I will never forget is the Bloody Sunday March. HUNTLEY: Where were you on that march, in relationship to the front of the march? CHRISTBURG: I was in the middle part of the march. HUNTLEY: Were you on the bridge at the time? CHRISTBURG: Yes, I was. I was actually, during that particular march, there were hundreds of people who marched on that particular day, but there were enough people who could cover the bottom of the bridge and still overlap almost down to the bottom and I was right in the middle, in the midst of the marchers. HUNTLEY: Were you with any members of your family at that particular time? Do you remember who was right there with you? What was your age at that time? CHRISTBURG: At that particular time, I was approximately seven years old. I was with the late Margaret Moore, who was one of the teachers who had the courage to participate at that particular time. Many threats had been made about the possibility of what would happen on that particular day. Even in spite of that, again I was still determined...with me being afraid and so many others who were a part of that movement. I was still determined to be a marcher. HUNTLEY: What were you afraid of? CHRISTBURG: I was afraid of what would happen. Prior to that time, with many instances, particularly at mass meetings, people spoke about how people would be beaten and there had been some on other marches that had previously taken place that had been beaten or abused in some form or fashion. I heard that on numerous occasions. However, this was the time that I knew in my mind that something would happen. I was afraid because first of all, I knew I wasn' ; t supposed to be there as a child and secondly, based upon the faith and the way that people prayed, the way that they sung and I' ; m not just saying just a prayer and they were finished with. There were many instances that took place prior to that march and it' ; s what you saw in the midst of the people who were part of that movement. On their faces, you saw fear on their faces, but yet at the same time you saw determination, dedication, commitment, and I think the people who were actually a part of that movement at that time it didn' ; t matter. You know Dr. King said that, well, first of all, being in the midst of that movement you had to have a certain commitment. You had to have a degree of a certain type of faith. You had to have a degree of willingness and to have something to sacrifice even if it was your life. That is what I saw and that' ; s what I saw people doing as a child. The expressions, the spirits, the determination those type attitudes, the attitude of readiness is really what taught me the most about the movement at that time. I felt that whatever I knew at that particular time as a child, I knew that first of all it was a struggle between something wrong that should be turned into right and I wanted to be a part of it, not just for myself but for my parents and for the people that lived in Selma. That attitude started exuberating within me just being in the midst of it, not understanding quite all of the ramifications that were involved. I knew the difference ; I knew the difference again between Black and White and I knew the difference between right and wrong. I actually saw it. I not only visualized it, I experienced it as a child every day. HUNTLEY: What was that day like for a seven-year-old? What did...what was the experience like? Can you explain what you saw? At the particular time that you had to turn around what did you do? CHRISTBURG: Well, it was scary. From the time that we were asked to mobilize ourselves in front of Brown' ; s Chapel Church. There was some communication between me and the late Margaret Moore. I had indicated to her that I wasn' ; t going to march. I told her I wanted to, but I didn' ; t have permission to. However, when the marchers had knelt down to pray, I remember standing on the sidelines being indecisive. Still with fear, not only for myself, but for them particularly. As they had gotten up and they had begun to march and start singing freedom songs. I remember running back up to her and joining here in the march, clutching her by her hand and I told her that I wanted to go. She took my hand and I marched with her. HUNTLEY: Was Rachel with you? CHRISTBURG: No, Rachel and I, my best friend, had discussed this and of course Rachel was not as, I guess, I was more disobedient in a sense than Rachel. Sometimes she wanted to do some things that we had talked about as friends and as children, but she listened to her parents more. I was basically the opposite. However, I could remember as we made our way to the Edmund Pettus Bridge on that particular day, the closer we got to the bridge the more frightened I was, as I had become as a child. I can remember when we had reached the Edmund Pettus Bridge and of course, we started praying and after we were asked to turn around all I can remember was tear gas that had begun to burst out into the air. I could see hundreds of state troopers and policemen with Billy clubs and tear gas masks and troopers on horses. When this tear gas had really been burst and flamed into the air, I could just see people running. Of course, I started running trying to make my way home. I could see the horses and at some point everybody was trying to run. Several people were running in different ways but there were several people who were running in my direction, as if they were trying to make their way back to Brown' ; s Chapel A.M.E. Church. As I had begun to run, trying to make my way back home I remember Rev. Williams picking me up and my feet was still galloping in his arms and I looked to him and told him in my own childish words to , " ; put me down because you' ; re not running fast enough." ; There were some people along with him who were still accompanying, not only me but those others who were frightened, trying to make their way home. I remember getting home that particular day and my parents were standing at the door along with so many other neighbors, because it was obvious, obviously that something was going to happen that day. When we were running trying to make our way back to Brown' ; s Chapel Church and myself trying to make my way back home, I could hear sirens, you know, the ambulance sounds and people crying. It was very frightening. I got home and my parents were standing in front of the door and I just ran up to my door and completely through them and making my way up the steps. My mom had come behind me trying to comfort me and I just cried. I was very frightened with what I saw and visualized on that particular day. I' ; ll never forget it. It will never leave my heart neither my mind. That was the most traumatic experience of my life, particularly being a child. HUNTLEY: Would you allow your children to be involved in the movement, if there was a movement going on of that nature today? CHRISTBURG: You know, I' ; ve been asked that question once before and I believe if there is a given cause that would require the commitment and the dedication and if they felt that it was something that they needed to do or wanted to do for that cause, even in spite of danger, I may do it reluctantly, but I believe I will let them go. HUNTLEY: At seven years old? CHRISTBURG: At seven years old. I say that because I' ; m hoping that a movement will come now that will give not only young people that type of spirit or attitude but people as a whole. We haven' ; t had a movement like that since that time when people were united and came together for a given cause. Even though it took the Bloody Sunday March for us to really mobilize people from all over the world, under most circumstances it takes crisis situations and circumstances for us sometimes to realize really what is happening. I' ; m very honest with you when I say that if at any point that I had children and there was a cause that came about that really would give them the attitude of wanting, or the attitude that I had in a sense, I would just be glad for that movement to come again for children and people to mobilize themselves. I think we have had so many reasons for that movement even after the civil rights movement. Right now, for us to have that type of attitude and based upon those circumstances, I will do that. HUNTLEY: The book Selma, Lord, Selma suggests that there was rather an intimate relationship between yourself, Rachel, and Dr. King. Can you just describe to us what that relationship...you know a seven-year-old child and you had the opportunity to sit on his lap and talk to him, what was that like? CHRISTBURG: As I mentioned to you earlier, there were so many experiences that I will never forget. One of those experiences was having the opportunity to meet Dr. Martin Luther King. As I look at it today, myself and Rachel at that time being kids, we had no idea of what type of man or what type of person or the history that would come behind our experiences of giving the opportunity to meet him. Obviously, it struck a chord with us even at that age meeting Dr. King, I mean anybody who has had the opportunity, adults or what have you, should feel very fortunate and grateful. We were even more fortunate. First of all, Dr. King saw people regardless of what background or what walk of life they had come from. He saw people or a person just as they were. That' ; s how he treated us as he met us on that particular day. I remember Rachel and I playing in front of Brown' ; s Chapel A.M.E. Church and there were these cars that had driven up and of course, it took our attention and as they had gotten out of the cars we went over towards them. One of the men that was with Dr. King said to us, " ; do you know who this man is?" ; We had no idea who none of them were. So, he said, " ; this Dr. King." ; Of course, we didn' ; t know who Dr. King was. As they proceeded to go into the back of Brown' ; s Chapel A.M.E. Church and they were about to have a meeting on that particular day, we followed them and as we followed them one of the men said to us, " ; you all can go on now cause we are about to have a meeting." ; Dr. King immediately said to him, " ; no, let them stay." ; So, we followed him on into the church and as we got into the church Dr. King had begun to give us some attention as children. He came over to where we were and he asked us our names and of course, we gave him our names. Then, he said, " ; what do you want?" ; Rachel and I looked at each other and hunching our childish shoulders, we didn' ; t know how to respond to that question. He asked us again, " ; what do you want?" ; We looked at each other again. He said, " ; when I ask you what do you want, your reply should be freedom." ; So, he asked us again, a third time, he said, " ; what do you want?" ; We said, " ; freedom" ; in our own childish voices. He said, " ; say it louder!" ; So, we said it louder. He asked us again, " ; when do you want it?" ; We didn' ; t quite know how to answer that question. He said, " ; when I ask you when do you want it, you say now." ; So, he asked us, " ; what do you want?" ; We said loudly, " ; freedom!" ; He said, " ; when do you want it?" ; We said, " ; now!" ; This was our first acquaintance with Dr. Martin Luther King. We sat there for a while and after he had gone into his meeting he told us he wanted to talk to us more. We left and we started playing like children would normally do and we came back because we wanted to talk with him more. When we had come back, Dr. King told us he was coming back to Selma and he wanted to see us. Now even though we didn' ; t quite know the significance of this man and really what he represented at this time, we knew he was someone very important and we couldn' ; t wait to get home to talk to our parents about this. I can remember talking to my parents about it and they didn' ; t have the expressions on their faces that I thought they should have had. Of course, I had become to realize why as I grew in the movement. At that particular time Dr. King was a profound leader that people didn' ; t necessarily dislike, but they didn' ; t like the idea of the disturbance that it could cause with them as a community or a people. Of course, Dr. King with the leadership that he provided not only in Selma, but all over the world, it intervened in so many ways with the agenda of people being concerned about their jobs. Yet he was fighting for them in so many instances from an economic standpoint, from a social stand point. Of course, after having met Dr. King on that particular day I couldn' ; t wait to see Dr. King when he came back to Selma. There were many pamphlets that had gone around in our community from SCLC announcing when Dr. King was going to be in Selma for the mass meeting. Of course, my parents didn' ; t want me to be there. I didn' ; t do a whole lot of discussion about it. I knew that I was going to be there. I recall slipping out of my house on that particular evening. I remember going into Brown' ; s Chapel A.M.E. Church and sitting on the front row and singing along with the people that were there the various freedom songs. HUNTLEY: How far was your home from the church? CHRISTBURG: My home was right in the back of Brown' ; s Chapel. Not far, it wasn' ; t a half a mile. I remember Dr. King making his way to the pulpit there. I remember the people who were gathered sitting and clapping their hands and singing the freedom songs. All of a sudden everybody had begun to stand on their feet and look in one direction. As they looked in that direction there was a crowd of people who were following Dr. King as Dr. King made his way to the pulpit. You could just see the gleam, not only in Dr. King' ; s eye as he made his way to the pulpit, but if you just looked around you could see a certain spirit that was exuberating all over the church. People had begun to clap their hands loud and even stomp their feet. They went from one freedom song to " ; My eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord." ; They sung that song and Dr. King just stood there and every now and then he would raise his hand. Then after everybody had quieted Dr. Martin Luther King took his seat, everybody was just waiting for him to make his speech. I' ; ll never forget the first time that I had the opportunity to hear him speak. I didn' ; t again quite understand all of the things that Dr. King talked about, but what I remember most about Dr. King was him talking about the difference between injustices, Black and White, and that in spite of people doing you wrong, you still have to turn the other cheek. At that particular time I couldn' ; t really analyze it as I did maybe six or seven months from that time. I knew that he had a righteous heart and that he was coming there to start a movement to help people in Selma rather they were Black or White. Based upon the way that Dr. King spoke, you knew he had a very Christian like attitude. I knew at that particular night that I then was a part of the movement. HUNTLEY: Were other members of your family involved? CHRISTBURG: No, they did not become involved until a later date when others had become more comfortable with joining the movement. HUNTLEY: How many times do you remember seeing Dr. King or being in his presence? Were there many other times after this time? CHRISTBURG: Sure, there were many other times. Dr. King had, you know during that time SCLC had of course played an intricate role and there had been several meetings at Brown' ; s Chapel Church with the absence of Dr. King and there have been many with his presence. HUNTLEY: Were you disappointed when they had something, and he was not there? CHRISTBURG: Very disappointed but I always asked when he was coming back. Those times that I knew he was going to be there I was always be there. There were many times that they had strategy meetings at Brown' ; s Chapel Church and those were the times that we had private time in a sense to really communicate with Dr. King. A number of times in the midst of him doing what he had to do he still took time to give us that attention. He talked about education, you know us getting an education, or he asked us questions about our families a lot but he always told us he will be back and he wanted to see us. Every time that Dr. King would make his way back to Selma for the mass meetings, we made it a point as children to make our way to the pulpit and sit on his lap. HUNTLEY: Did you ever question why your parents were not involved? CHRISTBURG: I questioned that particularly when I really didn' ; t quite understand a lot of things but, of course, as I grew in the movement I understood more about their reservations and so many other things. It didn' ; t take me long to recognize and realize, or even to be educated about the significance and the purpose of what the movement was all about. So, I grew up fast in the movement, which made me become very, more understanding as to the position, not only my family took, but others as well. In a real sense as I grew in that movement and as I had become a part of that movement it was like I was not only in that movement for myself and others but particularly for my parents. HUNTLEY: You were nine or ten when Dr. King was assassinated. Where were you when you heard the news? CHRISTBURG: I had come from a dancing class. I remember making my way into the door and my momma and my daddy and four other sisters and brothers were there. They had their attention on the TV as I made my way through the door. As soon as I walked in all of them turned their heads to me and I saw this unique expression on their faces, and it displayed that something was wrong. Before I could really ask the question about what was wrong there was a special bulletin that had come across the TV saying that Dr. King had died. At that particular time, I had so many different mixed emotions as a child. The first thing that I did of course was cry. I went to my room and I thought about all of my memories as a child with meeting Dr. King and some of the things that he taught me as a child. I started writing about my pal Dr. King. I guess in the midst of me dealing with my emotions at that particular time, of course, it was nothing that I really understood. I knew he was dead. I knew he was killed and I knew it was wrong. I' ; m not saying that I understood the death, but what I did understand was what Dr. King said. He would rather die for what he felt was right and I remember him saying on a number of occasions, you know, from the song " ; Oh Freedom, Oh Freedom, Before I' ; ll Be a Slave, I' ; ll Be Buried and My Grave Will Go Home to My Lord and Be Free." ; That' ; s what Dr. King' ; s commitment, that' ; s what his sacrifice was all about. He talked about it, but I had no idea that it would happen that fast ,because it was really like I was just getting to know somebody who had instantly been killed in the struggle for fighting for us as a people and for the rights of humanity. That was the type of commitment that Dr. King had and the sacrifices that were involved there. That helped me and as I continued to grow in the movement, as a result of his death, that helped me to even realize more the importance of me doing my part and me having the commitment to serve my community. I think that' ; s one of the things we as a people are lacking today. Based upon the commitment, the willingness, the visions that it takes to deal with some of the challenges that we' ; re faced with in our community. Even as a nation we' ; re not really willing to have that same type of genuine sacrifice and be willing to serve. One of the prime examples that I like to express to young people that I have the opportunity to speak with anywhere that I go is exercising the right to vote and looking forward to that. HUNTLEY: After Dr. King was killed you keep saying you grew up ; you were growing up in the movement. What kind of activities were you involved in after 1968? CHRISTBURG: After 1968, I was involved in various activities. One thing, desegregation had come into play, which had an impact still on young people, as well as adults in my community. My brothers and sisters they all went to predominate Black schools. At that particular time, as I continued to grow in the movement based upon what I had experienced, I was determined to go to a White school. I wanted to meet that challenge knowing that I had that right and that I could face it and I did that. In doing that, I was determined also not to just go to the school but to be active. At that particular time, it was very difficult if you were Black going into a segregated school and wanting to be a part of something. It just wasn' ; t anything that you possibly had the qualifications for, you had to battle with the Black and White issue. It was an unfair system. HUNTLEY: Were you one of the first to go into the White high school? CHRISTBURG: I was not the first, but I was among the few. Being among the few, there were a lot of hatred and so many other things that we had to contend with on a day to day basis. I can remember many times when my parents tried to support me in dealing with some of those problems. I was the only Black in five of my classes. Of course, being the only Black in five of my classes, I wasn' ; t the type of student that just sat there because I was Black. I was active and I tried to exemplify my character and my personality and showing them, I could be on the same level that they were. HUNTLEY: Were you active in extracurricular activities? CHRISTBURG: I sure was. I had the opportunity to be a cheerleader and I was among the few at that particular time who went out for cheerleader as a Black. That was quite difficult, but I made it. Even in spite of me making it, there were many times that I was spat on at different games, being called names, so many things as it relates to racial barriers. That still helped me to grow. I think that because of that movement it really contributed to me not only becoming more active but more understanding. I really didn' ; t, even though I experienced a lot of prejudice, I didn' ; t look at it from a hatred standpoint. I really just dealt with people just as they were. HUNTLEY: What was the process of becoming a cheerleader? CHRISTBURG: Well, being a cheerleader for the YMCA, as I again grew up, I was a cheerleader for the YMCA which was predominantly Black. Then, going to junior high school trying out for a predominantly Black team there were certain things you had to execute from a physical standpoint and in a real sense to make it all clear, Black folks had soul. I had to actually train myself to take form as to the type with the tryouts for getting through, making the cheerleader at that particular time. It took some extensive training to go from one transition to another. HUNTLEY: You had to mass some of your rhythm in other words? CHRISTBURG: Right. I did that and I did it well but even in spite of that part of the process, first of all was academics. You had to have a certain GPA, it was a screening process even before you did the practical part. They tried to give me a very difficult time on that, but I made it through that after my parents had to come over a number of times. I had all of the qualifications but there were many things that were put into place to keep me, to discourage me in a sense. I was still determined. When I even got to the practical part of course, when you try out for cheerleading you have an audience. During that time, each time that I would come on the floor to try out I was called names and there were many acts done to distract my attention, but I made it. HUNTLEY: You were taking the place of some other White girl, so that competition then created the division. What was your relationship with others on the team? CHRISTBURG: It was something that we had to grow through. Initially it was distasteful. Based upon my attitude with adjusting, not only adjusting to being a part of that type of system, but adjusting them because even though I knew that I was Black and they were White and I knew the difference I still had a cordial attitude and I still tried to blend. Initially there was one particular cheerleader that had more communication and interaction with me then it started trickling through the others. I think I was a contributing factor with all of that because if I had retaliated in any form or fashion it would have defeated my purpose totally. That is what the movement and Dr. King taught me. HUNTLEY: What were your teachers like? CHRISTBURG: Prejudice. HUNTLEY: You were the only Black student in five of your classes? CHRISTBURG: In five of my classes, they were basically prejudice. I knew what my objective was at that time and that was to really study hard and try to complete my courses in spite of what I was experiencing in the course of that. Many times, I did have problems with some of my courses. It wasn' ; t a thing where I could go to them perhaps and get the type of assistance that I needed. I had to go elsewhere. I kept in my mind that I needed to complete that course or those courses. It was difficult at times and the experience that had come from that really motivated me more. HUNTLEY: Did you ever consider going back to the Black high school? CHRISTBURG: No, it never crossed my mind. As a matter of fact, I wanted to become more active. I did, I became a member of the choir. I became a member of the basketball team, the volleyball team, I even became very interested in becoming a member of the debate team, but I couldn' ; t mix it in with the other extracurricular activities that I had. It really motivated me more. HUNTLEY: Did your younger brother go to the same high school? CHRISTBURG: Yes, he did but at a later time. During the time that I had gone to Parish High School there were other options for Blacks. At that particular time, he was at the predominantly Black school. However, when more Blacks had really started going to the school and when it had become a better situation of course he was one of those numbers. HUNTLEY: After high school, why didn' ; t you decide to go to Alabama or Auburn? CHRISTBURG: I had. My first choice was the University of Alabama, because I wanted to be a cheerleader, that was one of my pet peeves. I knew wherever I went I wanted to be a cheerleader. I had some difficulties with getting through that program. For some reason they just didn' ; t want a Black. Because of the difficulties that I had extracurricular wise and with me focusing on that with being a part of my academics, I chose to go to Tuskegee. HUNTLEY: What was that experience like? CHRISTBURG: It was a great experience. I think I had the opportunity with being a part of the movement, having the opportunity to go to be a part of a desegregated system. Then having the experience of going to a predominantly Black college. It taught me a lot. Being at Tuskegee, I tried to really take what I had because of what I experienced in the movement and growing up. I wanted to use every talent that I had and I did that which really enhanced my personal growth, mentally and socially. As a student at Tuskegee, my first year as a freshman I got involved in the student government. Not only my freshman year, from freshman year through my fourth year of college and graduating. Being a part of numerous activities there it helped my personal growth. I had mixed emotions in the process because for some reason I had the idea of coming back home getting into politics. When I had initially thought about my major, of course, it was political science. However, as I participated in various events and I was not only involved on the campus, I was also involved in the community as a student. HUNTLEY: What kind of involvement with the community did you have? CHRISTBURG: I was involved in.Well, first of all being a member of the student government there really gave me an opportunity to meet several people in the community on all levels. In the community there was the community action agency and they had different programs. I started off with a system of tutoring some of the kids. In city hall they had various programs. I had become a member of the NAACP chapter there. I started working with young people and it really became a pet peeve in a sense and ultimately I changed my major. I decided that I wanted to go into social work. As I completed my college education I decided that I would return home with the possibility of still having some interest in politics. However, as I had grown older and as I had become more involved in a sense with becoming more knowledgeable with politics, I decided I didn' ; t think that at that time that would be something that I would be interested in, but I did know that I was interested in youth. I was more of a youth advocate than anything else. So, I took that interest and with the talents and skills that I had, I decided that I wanted to develop a youth program. As I had come to Montgomery in 1980 to further my education I really started looking at that in my final Keep Production, which K-E-E-P is an acronym for Keep Entertainment Everyday People. My whole concept with that idea was to really focus and concentrate on the less fortunate youth and reach out to them to help build self- esteem and to use their talents, their God given talents that they had to help motivate them and building self-esteem. I had no inkling how I would really do that, but I mobilized a group of young people in Montgomery. The first event was a talent show. I organized that particular talent show and went out to several different projects or poor housing areas and I recruited some kids who had various talents and also in some other areas. As a result of that show, particularly being my first time doing it, it was very successful, and I decided that I would do another one. As a result of me continuing to do that, with the idea and vision that I had, [[people] were focusing on me, it really escalated quickly than I had anticipated. So, now after 17 years the worthiness of that program has been proven. I have had the opportunity to meet and work with hundreds of young people from all walks of life in building self-esteem, as well as providing various workshops, which has encouraged them to go on and finish high school, as well as college. Even today I still have that program. HUNTLEY: Was that a part of Alabama State? CHRISTBURG: No, it' ; s not a part of Alabama State. This is something I started doing prior to being a part of Alabama State. HUNTLEY: How is it funded? CHRISTBURG: Self-sufficient. There were many opportunities for me to become incorporated, but I decided that based upon the way in which the program was being handled I had the support of many businesses and parents through the years and I wasn' ; t quite stable in terms of me holding on to that program as long as I have. When the idea of becoming incorporated was being handed down to me, I just wasn' ; t comfortable with that idea at that time. The program has survived well-being self-sufficient. We have to...anything that we do we have to go and get the funds for it. However, we in many instances with various things that we wanted to do, particularly with workshops and bringing resources in or even putting on various shows, we' ; ve had a lot of support from the community. HUNTLEY: This program has been in force since 1980? CHRISTBURG: Since 1980. HUNTLEY: Did you work with that program full-time prior to getting, going on board with.... CHRISTBURG: I did. I was employed at Alabama State in 1991. Prior to that time, my attention was basically given to KEEP Production. HUNTLEY: Now what do you do at Alabama State? CHRISTBURG: I' ; m the coordinator of student activities. My job is basically to coordinate and manage various student activities for the student body. I work in conjunction, not only with the student government association, but also with various committees of the university and with Ms. Alabama State University. HUNTLEY: Have you had the opportunity to share your experiences growing up with students at Alabama State? If you have what has been the reception? CHRISTBURG: I' ; ve had many opportunities to share my experiences with students. As much as over the years you get new to students to come in and old ones to go out. Most of it has been a big surprise. There are students there now who come to me on a regular basis whenever they hear about the book cause I don' ; t make the point to advertise the success of my book. It' ; s not so much because I' ; m modest about it. It' ; s just that I feel that at some given point the students will recognize the fact that I was a part of that movement. That is being to happen more and more. I' ; ve had the opportunity to speak to the student body on three occasions. However, in various classroom settings with various instructors I get the opportunity to sit and talk with them. That alone helps spread the news as my experiences as a child. Sometimes it' ; s amazing to them. They want to sit down and really want me to go in depth with them. One of the things that I encourage them to do is to first read the book and then come ask me questions. Oftentimes when I have the time I will sit and entertain questions. Right now, with this book being 15 years old, the book is still alive. I' ; m very thankful for that. There have been many opportunities that have been prevailed for me to again speak to young people across the country. A lot of times when you' ; re doing that and then focusing on your personal life and your job a lot of emphasis is not placed in your own community. Even though I have had the opportunity to speak to a number of students at various elementary, junior high, and high schools in Montgomery, I' ; m still waiting for the opportunity to reach out more to other students. I do have other plans to speak to students at Alabama State University. As a matter of fact, I will be speaking in February on three occasions. HUNTLEY: Is the book in paperback yet? CHRISTBURG: Yes, it is. HUNTLEY: Have you had any opportunity to speak here at the Institute? CHRISTBURG: This is my first opportunity. HUNTLEY: We' ; ll have to get you back and have some program around what you' ; re doing. I want to thank you for taking the time out of your schedule, because this obviously is a piece of history that every child should know because what it does it gives other people the strength, cause even at the age of seven that you had the audacity to question the status quo. I think you should be commended for it. So again, thank you for coming. CHRISTBURG: Thank you so very much for inviting me. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=SWChristburg1998.xml SWChristburg1998.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Sheyann Webb Christburg
Description
An account of the resource
Sheyann Webb Christburg discusses marching on Bloody Sunday as a seven-year-old. She co-authored the book Selma, Lord, Selma and participated in desegregating her white high school.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
19980129C
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.)
Tuskegee University
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1998-01-29
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/fe81d4f941b1b0e0f8b074af805c6f94.png
110c55144c8b74793894a70a5bd0c42e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Horace Huntley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Samuel Greenwood
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=SGreenwood2000.xml
Interview Keyword
This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are
included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
Ku Klux Klan
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 November 14, 2000 Samuel Greenwood Interviewed on November 14, 2000 20001114G 0:45:43 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Chicago (Ill.) World War II Communist movement Gary (Ind.) Ku Klux Klan Samuel Greenwood Horace Huntley Video 1:|32(1)|49(8)|62(4)|86(4)|104(13)|122(2)|144(6)|161(5)|185(14)|201(3)|210(3)|221(14)|238(2)|249(5)|265(4)|278(16)|300(17)|318(8)|330(6)|344(11)|357(9)|372(11)|394(6)|411(6)|426(10)|443(3)|456(9)|470(2)|493(12)|513(11)|529(2)|546(13)|560(14)|574(7)|583(7)|594(4)|605(11)|624(8)|638(5)|654(4)|675(7)|688(14)|702(6)|727(11)|752(9) 0 https://youtu.be/mWY_3WiddvQ YouTube video English 0 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Mr. Samuel Greenwood for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I'm Dr. Horace Huntley. We're presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute ; today is November 14, 2000. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 20 Background and Family Life Were you born in Birmingham? Greenwood discusses where he was born and his family life. Chicago (Ill.) ; Columbus (Ga.) Birmingham (Ala.) 81 Memories of Police Brutality Those were some tough times and that period, of course, in 1919 in Birmingham, they had a force called 'Lynching Bs' where they actually lynched Black folks and there would be a festive occasion, so, I'm sure there were tough times. Greenwood recalls personal memories of when he saw or experienced police brutality. Ku Klux Klan ; Lynching Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States 270 Educational Journey Where did you start first grade? Greenwood tells where he went to elementary school and high school. Cameron Elementary School ; Titusville All-black school ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Racism in education--United States 439 Moving Around Between Family Members So, you were 21 years old at that time? What did you do between that times ; did you go to work? Greenwood discussed moving around between family members and how his education in the South did not prepare him for education in the North. Chicago (Ill.) ; Connecticut ; New York (N.Y.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Class Differences 616 Family Members' Involvement in the Communist Movement This period again, the 30s, 40s ; in particular places like New York, Chicago, there were the Communist Movement was ripe. Were you ever involved or know anyone who was involved in any of those areas? Greenwood tells how his family members were involved in the communist movement and he saw how the communist fought for equal rights. Chicago (Ill.) ; Father Devine Communist movement ; Communist parties 890 Transition from Birmingham to New York and Chicago What was the transition like for you leaving Birmingham, a small Southern city to the megapolis of New York? Greenwood recalls how the differences between living in the South and the North. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Chicago (Ill.) ; New York (NY) ; Race riots--Illinois Police brutality--United States 1047 Personal Military Experiences What was that [military] experience like? Greenwood discusses how there were racial disparities in the American military. Airplanes, Military--Germany ; Fighter pilot ; Mistreatment Racial discrimination ; World War II 1372 Return to Birmingham after His Service When you got out of the military the first time, what did you do? Did you go back to Chicago? Greenwood discusses how nothing really changed when he returned to Birmingham after he got out of the service. African Americans--Segregation ; Eastern Airlines Birmingham (Ala.) ; United States. Army Reserve 1503 Integration of the Service Has the military changed since: because by then, Truman had integrated the service? Greenwood recalls how the military changed after Truman integrated the service. Integration of the military ; Truman, Harry S., 1884-1972 Desegregation 1610 Remembrance of the Mass Movements Now, the 50s, things are happening you know. You have the Brown vs. Board of Education decision and then, the Movement starts with the Montgomery Bus Boycott. Greenwood discusses how he felt the mass movements impacted his life. Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka ; Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 Civil rights movement ; Racism 1838 Convention of Chicago and Other Trials Chicago, now you're talking about the mid-60s ; were you there in '68 during the Convention of Chicago? Greenwood recalls what it was like being in Chicago amongst all of the trials and race riots. Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter ; Black Stone Rangers (Street gang) ; Reverend Jesse Jackson Chicago 8 ; Convention of Chicago 2055 How Dr. King's Death Impacted Chicago This period, suddenly, '65 to '70, there was a Black Power Convention, I believe that was '70 or '71 or so, the Black Power Convention, well there was one in Chicago, there was one in Newark, I believe and then, of course the political--the Black Political Conference, that was held in Gary, Indiana and all of these things are taking place this is right after the death of Martin Luther King. Greenwood tells how Dr. King's death impacted the city of Chicago. Chicago (Ill.) ; Gary, Indiana Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 2259 Career in Chicago's Board of Education You had mentioned earlier that you sold beauty supplies. What did you do after that? Greenwood explains what he did when he worked for the board of education. Working class African Americans Chicago (Ill.). Board of Education 2337 How His Personal Experiences Impact His Poetry So, you write poetry? Greenwood reads some of his poetry and tells how he draws inspiration from his personal experiences. Blacks--Segregation ; Racism ; Slavery in American history Alabama. State Department of Public Welfare 2633 Life After Moving Back to Birmingham So, you decided then to--after--how many years--four years in Gary? To come back? Greenwood discusses his life after he moved back to Birmingham from Gary, Indiana. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Midfield (Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Gary (Ind.) 2724 Conclusion of Interview Well, I really want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule and you've been very enlightening and you helped an awful lot. Interview is concluded. Oral History Samuel Greenwood discusses growing up in Birmingham, serving in World War II and spending much of his life in Chicago. He focused on poetry after retiring from the educational system in Chicago. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mr. Samuel Greenwood for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project ; I' ; m Dr. Horace Huntley. We' ; re presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute ; today is November 14, 2000. Mr. Greenwood, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule and welcome to the Institute. GREENWOOD: Thank you, yes sir. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Birmingham? GREENWOOD: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: Were your parents from Birmingham originally? GREENWOOD: No, they' ; re from Columbus, Georgia. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters? GREENWOOD: No brothers and no sisters. HUNTLEY: Only child. GREENWOOD: Only child. HUNTLEY: How much education did your parents have? GREENWOOD: I would say, absolutely none. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did they do? GREENWOOD: Well, my mother worked at a Chinese restaurant on 3rd Avenue and 17th Street. I never my father until I was about 17 or 18 years old because he left Birmingham when I was just six months old. HUNTLEY: Where did he go? GREENWOOD: He went to Chicago. HUNTLEY: So, you were born in what year? GREENWOOD: February 14, 1920. HUNTLEY: Those were some tough times and that period, of course, in 1919 in Birmingham, they had a force called ' ; Lynching Bs' ; where they actually lynched Black folks and there would be a festive occasion, so, I' ; m sure there were tough times. What do you remember about those first days in Birmingham? GREENWOOD: There were three incidents in my life that I shall never forget ; among those--in our neighborhood there at 1621 3rd Ave South, dirt roads and seeing the hooded riders come to our neighborhoods at night many time, swinging from the Chevys or Ford with shotguns in one hand and handguns in the other. I remember those times and there were times they would run through our house and without knocking, mothers undressed-- HUNTLEY: Run through your house? GREENWOOD: A White policeman, we knew that he was a police and we ran. We ran in the house and they thought we were trying to tell somebody about the whiskey or whatever that they might have had. But, they' ; re looking for him because the White policemen were competing against each other for certain whiskey in our neighborhood and they wanted to know who sold to whom over here and they had different people telling them these things and as a result, we were always-- HUNTLEY: To get the kickback. GREENWOOD: Yes, get the kickback. In fact, there was an incident that happened whereas one police killed another White police officer because of buying for this tray of whiskey in the Black neighborhood. HUNTLEY: Is that right? GREENWOOD: Yes, sir. HUNTLEY: About, what year was that? GREENWOOD: This must have been about 1928, ' ; 29 or something like that. HUNTLEY: You had different segments of the police force making the effort to control the--? GREENWOOD: Right. Oh, yes sir and these policemen would come with the white robes on through our neighborhoods, but underneath, the robe wouldn' ; t be another police uniform. They didn' ; t' ; try to hide too much from us, they didn' ; t care. I do remember on the Fourth of July, an old (?) plane would come over the Black neighborhoods and drop exploding hand grenades and they would explode before they hit the ground. But, it would frighten us to death. That was the kind of intimidation that went on in our neighborhoods along with everybody who had a uniform--he was your boss, this was the person to tell you what to do. HUNTLEY: Where did you start first grade? GREENWOOD: The first school in Birmingham for Blacks, Cameron. HUNTLEY: Cameron. GREENWOOD: Cameron School on Ave H and 14th Street. HUNTLEY: It was Cameron Lane eventually. GREENWOOD: That' ; s correct. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about that school? GREENWOOD: I remember we had to bring the coal in from the back to start the fire in the morning. We had to go outside the door into the bathroom ; it was cold sometimes and one of the things I vividly remember is the fact that every year we got books, the White books, with back torn off them, pages missing, but this is what they gave us. HUNTLEY: Used books that Whites used the previous years? GREENWOOD: We got the used books, the old ones. HUNTLEY: How far did you live from Cameron? GREENWOOD: I lived about eight blocks from Cameron. HUNTLEY: How did you get back and forth to school? GREENWOOD: I had to walk. In fact, I moved to Titusville at that time and I was living at 1621 3rd Ave South and I had to walk over to Center Street. But, I had to walk. HUNTLEY: That' ; s quite a distance from Center Street. GREENWOOD: It is. HUNTLEY: Birmingham, in the 1920s and 30s, there were a number of things going on ; one of the things going on is the whole issue of race, but also the issue of working class--people attempted to develop unions. GREENWOOD: Oh yes. HUNTLEY: When you left Cameron, before we get to that--when you left Cameron, where did you go? GREENWOOD: I left Cameron and I went to Titusville and I lived out there for a while and I moved back to the Southside and I was going to the Washington School. HUNTLEY: Where did you go to high school? GREENWOOD: I didn' ; t go to high school in Birmingham. In fact, I didn' ; t go to high school at all, in fact, I came out of the service and I got a GED and went to some of the city colleges there and got a little bit and little bit there. HUNTLEY: When you finished your schooling, you then went into the service? GREENWOOD: No. I went to the service in December 5, 1941. HUNTLEY: So, you were 21 years old at that time? What did you do between that times ; did you go to work? GREENWOOD: My mother passed when I was about 12 or 13 years old. I had to go from one relative to the other and they got tired of me and I had to go to another relative. So, I went around to different places ; I went to New York City, Connecticut, Chicago with other relatives. HUNTLEY: So, you were away from Birmingham then? GREENWOOD: I was away from Birmingham ; I left Birmingham when I was about 13 or 14, somewhere in that area. HUNTLEY: When you left Birmingham, where did you go? Did you go to New York? GREENWOOD: I went to Chicago? HUNTLEY: With your father? GREENWOOD: I never saw my father until I got to Chicago. HUNTLEY: That was with another relative? GREENWOOD: Yes. HUNTLEY: How long were you there? GREENWOOD: I was there for I guess maybe a couple of years before I went to New York and Connecticut. HUNTLEY: Did you go to school there? GREENWOOD: Yes, I went to school for a while in New York City, 79th and 3rd Ave in New York. But, my background was such--I couldn' ; t keep up with them, I just couldn' ; t. I went to Connecticut ; I went to the highest little villages in the country, as far as wealth is concerned. I just couldn' ; t keep up with them. HUNTLEY: How did that impact upon you as a youngster? GREENWOOD: I felt terrible about because I couldn' ; t and I came back to New York City and wondered around because my aunt, who was responsible for my leaving the South, she was working for some people in domestic and she was doing the best she could for me. She got me out of this house because she wanted me to do this, but it was kind of hard. But, after leaving Connecticut, I was on my own. I was going from pillar to post trying to make it, working in stores or wherever I could. Eventually, I went back to Chicago. HUNTLEY: There were a lot of opportunities for a young Black man at that time to get involved in things that were illicit. Was there a possibility for you? Did you see that out there? GREENWOOD: Maybe that little background I had in Birmingham, trying to do the right thing and everybody was your parent and they saw you doing something wrong--maybe that held over because I never went to jail, only the Army. HUNTLEY: This period again, the 30s, 40s ; in particular places like New York, Chicago, there were the Communist Movement was ripe. Were you ever involved or know anyone who was involved in any of those areas? GREENWOOD: Yes. In fact, I had a cousin in Chicago and he went to California and he was involved with the Communist Movement. He had a theater group and I went to his group and met a lot of Communists. But, I was never the one to take out a card or anything like that. I was around them, yes. In fact, at that time, in New York City, Father Devine(?) was-- HUNTLEY: Tell me a bit about that. Did you ever attend any of his meetings? GREENWOOD: Oh yes. Father Vine was a Godsend for a while there because of the fact that we could go to Father Devine and pay $0.15 for a meal. The women were going as domestic, they had a big building they--just the women. Men had a big building by themselves over here, but it was all Father Devine and the money--he had a big mansion in New Jersey and he married a young White girl. For a while, he fed the people. HUNTLEY: Did you ever meet him? GREENWOOD: I only got close to him once ; I was coming from somewhere, I don' ; t recall. There were women around a Duisenberg (?) and these women were carrying on over the Duisenberg and they were praying and moaning and carrying on. I said, " ; What' ; s going on ; this is Father Divine' ; s car and he' ; s in there getting a haircut." ; He was quite a character. HUNTLEY: There was Father Divine, Danny Grace during those times. GREENWOOD: Yes. HUNTLEY: Aphol(?) Randolph in developing his car porters and many times, many of these movements, they were termed to be ' ; other than American,' ; anti-American in a sense. I know in the South, anyone that talked about racial equality, in many cases, they were termed Communists. But, the Communist had a relatively good record when it came to Unitarian movements and helping the poor and that kind of thing. Did you see that as being the case with them? Was the attraction based upon them being helpful? GREENWOOD: I think most people had idea that they were helpful because what we were going through, when I was a kid in Birmingham, Alabama ; and Dr., I want you to know that there were some trying times when once a month, when I was a kid in Birmingham, you went to the welfare store, we had a little booklet and they' ; d give you some food. Well, after two weeks, food would run out and we just wished we had somebody to help us, Communists or whatever. Those were trying times and the people on the first of the month, they would come at people down a little rivulet, going into a big stream, going to 1st Ave and 14th Street, where the big welfare place was. We would get in line, standing there ; old people who were crippled, pulling baby buggies, wagons or whatever they could to put the little food that they were gonna get on there. It was quite a sight. I know that you were asked if you were Communist or whatever you were, if they could help you-- HUNTLEY: It didn' ; t matter? GREENWOOD: It didn' ; t matter, really. HUNTLEY: What was the transition like for you leaving Birmingham, a small Southern city to the megopolis of New York? GREENWOOD: At that time, I wasn' ; t sophisticated enough to really see the difference, but there was a difference. But, it was underhanded ; here in Birmingham, you knew just where to sit and where to go. They' ; d have to kick you out someplace you were trying to go in the North there in Chicago. But Chicago, there was a demarcation line there and you didn' ; t step over it because during that time, the police were almost as bad as in Birmingham. It wasn' ; t quite that obvious, but they were something else wherever we went. HUNTLEY: Did you anticipate any differences? GREENWOOD: I anticipated that there would be differences, but you have to be there a while because the fact that the 20s that they had the big race riot there-- HUNTLEY: In 1919. GREENWOOD: Right on the beach. HUNTLEY: Right. GREENWOOD: Killed a young boy. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. GREENWOOD: The police, they weren' ; t quite as rabid as they were here because here, everybody who had on a uniform, whether it' ; s a policeman, fireman, ambulance driver, if you had a uniform, he was your boss. Birmingham, you had to say, " ; Yes, sir, and no, sir." ; HUNTLEY: Many times they didn' ; t have on uniforms and you had to say these things. What was the circumstance of your meeting your father in Chicago? GREENWOOD: That was kind of an embarrassing moment because we were poor and my father--.I didn' ; t even know him until I was about 14 or 17 years old. I never felt that he was my father ; although I was around him for a short amount of time. HUNTLEY: Didn' ; t have that feel? GREENWOOD: No, never had that feeling as a father. Had he been a father, he would have seen about me or write my mother. My mother struggled and she died at a very young age. HUNTLEY: At the age of 21 when you went into the military? GREENWOOD: I went into the military from Chicago. HUNTLEY: What was that experience like? GREENWOOD: Well, let me put it this way, doctor, I dug every outhouse from America to--it was Germany and France because I just thought that somewhere along the line, " ; I' ; m a soldier in the US Army, if I get killed for the country and they treat us the way they did." ; We slept in pup tents while down the road, the other White soldiers slept in perennial tents and during one time, this rain, we had--I' ; d give them my half of the tent, we' ; d put it together and make a pup tent and his feet would be sticking out in the rain and nobody cared. We had what you called mattress covers and we' ; d go out to farmers' ; field and get straw to sleep on. It was rough. HUNTLEY: So again, it wasn' ; t a panacea when you arrived in the military? GREENWOOD: No, sir. In fact, I was over where the 332nd fought World War. I was a service company with trucks. We serviced the 52nd Fighter Group, which was White and the 332nd Fighter Group, which was Black. I used to look up in the mornings around the airfield in Italy and see the big bombers going over first, then about an hour later, P-51s, they would go with the bombers to protect the bombers, go out there and drop the bombs, but the 52nd fighter group, they would go also over, but, they would leave the bombers and go try to find German aircraft to shoot down. But, the Black guys stayed with them all the way there and back. Once we got back to Italy, the Black pilots could not go to the service area, they could not go over to the White officer' ; s tent. But, British officers allowed them to go to their tent. That mentality just made me be (?) all the way through. HUNTLEY: So, they could go to--the British would allow them--they couldn' ; t go to their own service lot? GREENWOOD: They couldn' ; t go their own service lot. Why I know that, because of the fact that the neighbor, in my older years, he just died this past year, was a pilot in the 332nd. I lived on the 3rd floor in a place called Chan(?) Village Co-op in Chicago, he lived on the 1st floor. I saw his children grow up and marry and Kirkpatrick was his name. Well, he told me this and he was a pilot. He was 25 years old and he was the oldest man in the group at the time from Tuskegee. HUNTLEY: That is something that you had to go through all that, although you were fighting for democracy-- GREENWOOD: That got to me, Dr., that really got to me. The White officers would send us cigarettes. Now, cigarettes were only five cents a pack when we first started out. Then they got to ten cents or twenty cents or whatever. But, over in Europe and in Africa, we could sell a pack of cigarettes for $20. Now, the White officers would give us what they call the 20 grands or wings or some of these cheap tasting cigarettes and they were awful. We knew they treated us this way, but they did everything in the world to us and I just rebelled against it. So, I was always digging outhouses because that was my extra duty. HUNTLEY: Were there others that rebelled in the same manner? GREENWOOD: Very few of them. HUNTLEY: So, you were somewhat of an outcast? GREENWOOD: I was. The officers called me out one day, had the whole company come out--126 men and I stood in front and he said, " ; My company says that all the problems we' ; re having is because of this guy here. He could be the first sergeant if he wanted to." ; They stayed on me. I went to North Africa to Italy three times. But, the fighting was so fierce in Italy at that time, that I had to come back on a DC-4 and back and forth. They wouldn' ; t let me stay in one place. They wanted me to go with the company, wanted me to go with the officer who said that I was raising all this sin and I stayed with him HUNTLEY: Why would they send you with him? GREENWOOD: Because he didn' ; t want me to be back here with the rest of them. HUNTLEY: You would create problems? GREENWOOD: Right. The roads were--at that time, the fighting was right outside of Naples and the roads were so full of troops going up and troops coming down til we couldn' ; t have the truck company there. So, I went back to North Africa and--eventually we did come back and that' ; s where I met the 332nd fighter group at. HUNTLEY: How long did you stay in the military? GREENWOOD: Four years the first time. Two years the second time from ' ; 50 to ' ; 52. HUNTLEY: When you got out of the military the first time, what did you do? Did you go back to Chicago? GREENWOOD: I went back to Chicago. HUNTLEY: Did you work or find a job? GREENWOOD: I found a job, but it was just a menial job at a hotel. I came back to Birmingham around ' ; 47 and started working for Eastern Airlines. HUNTLEY: You were here for a couple of years? GREENWOOD: Yes, I was here until ' ; 50, I was working for Easter Airlines and worked across the field there and saw the Army Reserve and said, " ; This is so boring here." ; I joined the Army Reserve and stayed about six month' ; s active duty for Korea. But, I didn' ; t go to Korea ; so when I got out, instead of coming back to Birmingham, I stayed in Chicago. HUNTLEY: Now, when you returned to Birmingham, I know many of the soldiers that went away and came back, particularly males from the South and I' ; m sure from the North as well. When you returned, you find many times that conditions you' ; re supposedly fighting for democracy of the world, but you come back and find that the conditions are just as bad when you left. GREENWOOD: Absolutely. HUNTLEY: How did that impact upon you? GREENWOOD: I don' ; t know because I asked a lady who was just a friend. She tried to help me even when my mother was living. For her, I was just trying to do the best I could for her and I accepted and when I think back over it, it was sophisticated in Chicago, but here, you know where you stood. HUNTLEY: You went back in the military when? GREENWOOD: In ' ; 50. Because I was working for Eastern Airlines and in ' ; 50, I went and stayed two years. HUNTLEY: Has the military changed since ; because by then, Truman had integrated the service? GREENWOOD: You' ; re right and I' ; m glad you made that point because I got into a headquarters company and we had about seven or eight trucking companies under us. Now, each company had about 126 men and (?) with White companies and this is the new thing that I was no longer segregated, but, we had some trouble. HUNTLEY: What kind of problems did you encounter? GREENWOOD: Most of the problems were with our officers trying to tell the White officers--as far as initially, we didn' ; t have any problems with them. It was all cut and dry so-- HUNTLEY: You recognize that there had been a change from when you were in before? GREENWOOD: I don' ; t know whether it was then, obviously not. I don' ; t know exactly-- HUNTLEY: After you then served your time and you got out of the military this time, where did you go? GREENWOOD: I went back to Chicago because I had put in an application for a bus driver in Chicago. And, after this length of time that I stayed the Army and when I came back, I was called back to Chicago as a bus driver and I drove the bus for about seven or eight years. HUNTLEY: Now, the 50s, things are happening you know. You have the Brown vs. Board of Education decision and then, the Movement starts with Montgomery Bus Boycott. Did that have any impact? Were you following that during that time? GREENWOOD: Oh yes we were. We were following that at that time and I' ; m trying to think of what kind of impact that it did have on me. It was always obvious to what was going on as far as racism is concerned. I never hesitated to talk about it. But, trying to make it and I had sympathy, but I don' ; t know what I had did for the Movement. I don' ; t even remember what I did for the Movement. HUNTLEY: But you were aware that change was taking place? GREENWOOD: Oh yea. I' ; ve always regretted why I didn' ; t do something but, Dr., I left here in uniform in Birmingham. I remember a Look Magazine guy was on the street in Birmingham, somewhere on 20th Street and 5th Ave, wherever. But, I was in uniform and he said, " ; How do you feel out there wearing a uniform in Alabama, the way you' ; re being treated?" ; I don' ; t what kind of reply it was at that time, I don' ; t remember. HUNTLEY: You say Newsweek? GREENWOOD: It was either Look Magazine or-- HUNTLEY: One of the national publications? GREENWOOD: Yes. It was a national publication, right, right. HUNTLEY: But, he did raise that question? GREENWOOD: He did raise that question ; I don' ; t know what answer I gave him, I don' ; t recall. HUNTLEY: During the time of the struggle was taking place here, let' ; s say between ' ; 56 and maybe ' ; 65, what was happening in Chicago? GREENWOOD: Well, we had our own problems ; racism in the police department was still run by Mayor Daley and whatever the police did is the same way it is now. But we didn' ; t have the officers like--we didn' ; t have officers because they were just getting into the police--they worked as policemen, but no big rank because all the rest of those guys had tenure, the White officers. So, we were struggling in Chicago ; we had our problems there, trying to get jobs because at that time, we were trying to fight to get counter jobs for women in the big department stores. HUNTLEY: At that time, you were driving the bus? GREENWOOD: I was driving the bus, that' ; s right. HUNTLEY: You drove the bus for seven or eight years? GREENWOOD: Yes. HUNTLEY: What did you do after that? GREENWOOD: After that, I left the bus and started as a salesman for a cosmetic company. HUNTLEY: Was this an effort to do something to elevate yourself economically? GREENWOOD: That' ; s what I tried to do. I had a truck that I sent directly to the beauty shops all over the city of Chicago. But, they didn' ; t have the type of business the Whites had because if you went into a White shop, the owner bought all the supplies and took the money that way. But, in Black shops, each operator did their own thing and they didn' ; t have much money, they couldn' ; t buy the supplies and I was just spinning my wheels and trying to create a business there. But, it wasn' ; t successful. HUNTLEY: How long did you stay there? GREENWOOD: I stayed there about three or four years trying to make it. HUNTLEY: Chicago, now you' ; re talking about the mid-60s ; were you there in ' ; 68 during the Convention of Chicago? GREENWOOD: Yes, yes, oh yes. Brother Daley beat us up so, yes sir. Oh yes. I remember seeing on TV, in the papers there whatever. That was quite something. It was mostly Whites involved, mostly White, young-- HUNTLEY: Young, White kids and of course, they had the Chicago 8 trial at the time and Bobby Seale was involved in that. GREENWOOD: Oh, that' ; s right because he came over there on the west side and they shot through the walls, that' ; s true. HUNTLEY: That, Fred Hampton, Mark Clark, they were leaders in the Black Panther Party, Hammerhand(?) was the-- GREENWOOD: Hammerhand (?) was the man. HUNTLEY: They actually murdered Bobby Sutton-- GREENWOOD: They did because they shot through the wall. We had a guy by the name of Gloves Davis, who was a Black police officer and he was terrible. He was with Hammerhand, going into-- HUNTLEY: Of course, at that time, the Blackstone Rangers were in Chicago. GREENWOOD: They were. HUNTLEY: Then, the Black Panthers got involved with that ; was there any-- GREENWOOD: I remember going to a rally with Reverend Jesse Jackson because one of the preachers in his alliance, whatever, in his group, said something about the way the Black Stone Rangers were doing. Now, you got to know about the Black Stone Ranger, they went pretty deep. There were monies to be given and Stone was a big insurance man. He gave the Black Stone Rangers money for whatever reason, I don' ; t know. But, the Black Stone Rangers were doing nothing but selling dope, they were intimidating people and all of that. But, one of the preachers in Reverend Jesse Jackson' ; s group made remarks about him, the Stone. They burned his church completely to the ground, yea. But, there were elements working with the Black Stone Rangers, just in neighborhoods. Why Mr. Stone, the biggest insurance man in Chicago gave the Black Stone Rangers money, we never know. HUNTLEY: There were also some suggestions that eventually, Mark Clark and the Black Panther Party would have an impact upon trying to stop some of the gangsterism of the Black Stone Rangers and other gangs. Were you familiar with any of that taking place? GREENWOOD: No, I wasn' ; t familiar with that. But, I do know, sir, that they were so different. I remember the Black Panthers were trying to help the young kids and I don' ; t remember any of the Black Stone Rangers trying to help anybody like that. HUNTLEY: Right. This period, suddenly, ' ; 65 to ' ; 70, there was a Black Power Convention, I believe that was ' ; 70 or ' ; 71 or so, the Black Power Convention, well there was one in Chicago, there was one in Newark, I believe and then, of course the political--the Black Political Conference, that was held in Gary, Indiana and all of these things are taking place this is right after the death of Martin Luther King. When Dr. King was assassinated, how did that impact on Chicago? GREENWOOD: If we weren' ; t completely involved the Civil Rights Movement, we just felt the loss. Everybody was hurt ; it was like when Roosevelt--maybe when he died, remember the people were just crying and carrying on and it was the same thing with Dr. King. You just wouldn' ; t believe it. But, I think he kind of warned us about what was going to happen to him. I think most of us kind of prepared, many of us were. We didn' ; t think it would be so rapid, one behind the other, like Bobby--we just didn' ; t believe that America would do that to us, but--and they' ; re still doing it to us. HUNTLEY: It did happen. GREENWOOD: Dr., I want to tell you a little bit about Indiana. I moved to Gary, Indiana about four years ago. I retired from my work for the Board of Education in Chicago ; I moved to Gary and it was a little wooded area, nice and quiet--deer, ducks and geese. I was just tired of listening to that sobbing all day and all night, where I was living 84th and Cottage Grove. I moved out there and I volunteered for the police department, after a while, they made me a job. The Government gave them some money, so--that is something. I have to read to you one day about this poem that I had written about Gary because all the Whites left. They left the buildings, they left their businesses and I mean, they moved down the road where it' ; s called Maryville now. All these dilapidated houses are still there, dope is rampant, homicide is higher than Birmingham and we only have 116,000 people living there and you have almost a million here. But, our homicide rate is something else, you got guns coming from everywhere into Gary. Dope is rampant. HUNTLEY: So, you were moving out to get away from it all? GREENWOOD: That' ; s right and that' ; s why I decided to come back here. HUNTLEY: You had mentioned earlier that you sold beauty supplies. What did you do after that? GREENWOOD: I got a job in the maintenance department for the board of education and I stayed there until I retired. HUNTLEY: Oh, okay. Did you work at a particular school? GREENWOOD: Yes, I worked at a particular school and in fact, I worked at a couple of schools, maybe three or four school. You know, they had what you call a roaming crew ; there certain things that janitors couldn' ; t do like the lawns or the trees or whatever we did there. We called them roaming crew. But, after I retired from the board of education, I volunteered in the classroom for five years, to help the kids. I would read little poems to them or whatever to try and help until the board of education says that we can' ; t have the EMH--we can' ; t put them in a special class, we have to put them all together and that was a bad thing. After that, I had to get out because the kids were--the EMH kids were--- HUNTLEY: What are EMH? GREENWOOD: Emotionally Handicapped. It was just something and I left there. HUNTLEY: So, you write poetry? GREENWOOD: Oh yes. HUNTLEY: How did that start? GREENWOOD: I don' ; t know Dr, it was just from what I saw as a kid in Birmingham, like house rent parties, like with the two or three-room houses, shotgun houses and there were tin roofs the rain would be beating--it' ; s just what I saw. The people going to the welfare store and they come in groups, merging into a big string, going in there and how bad we were treated once we got inside there, how the man would throw the food at us and all of those things. HUNTLEY: You have a poem that you can read to us? GREENWOOD: Sure, yes sir. I thought you might like this. Here' ; s one, Dr. it' ; s called, We Done Survived. Let me get my glasses here. HUNTLEY: It' ; s about life, isn' ; t it? GREENWOOD: Popped, marked and burning, it was a mean old road when it come down Planting, picking and pulling, toting another man' ; s load Work morning til night, clear infested swamp land, planting and cutting sugar cane Broken tame wild horses, history don' ; t even know our names, but we survived. Built a big house with swown(?) staircase, ornate doors, while the master practice a refine art of living on hand-and-knee-polished floors. Hand-carved beds with canopy high, made the mattress would sit it down, we slept on bags of corn shucks and moss on a cold, cold ground. We butchered the hog and cured the meat, all we got at Christmas time is the skin and cuts and the pea, but we survived. Back at us, dusty roads, washed shed, shotgun shacks, Saturday breakdown, catfish, pig ears, pig feet and $.25 cents bottles of home brew. " ; Keep our (?) table, boy and I' ; ll keep out of jail" ; says the big boss man, fist fights, razor slashing, bodies gutted like hogs on a killing floor, come Sunday morning, a sleep tide washing away the blood of Saturday night, calling sinners to take their place on a mourners(?) base and through it all, we done survived. HUNTLEY: That' ; s deep that is deep. Read another one to us. GREENWOOD: Okay. This is called, Traveling Man: He was a traveling man, he was a (?) line, he' ; s gone now, all he left was a good name, a gold watch and chain. 35 years, still pounding steel, can see him now, bowed and bent, worked hard like the rest ' ; cause the system because of color paid him less, White against Black, Black against White, the rich man' ; s scheme, but he held fast to worker' ; s dream. As a child, I sat on his knee, he spoke a (?) along the track, Black man swinging from a tree, while demons and rows of Whites danced in ecstasy. Knight Riders terrorized the countryside, lit the midnight sky ; Black breathing hands reached out asking a reason why (?) answered their cry, " ; It' ; s July, they rang the Liberty Bell" ; some of us freedom, other was living hell, (?) clouds through the sky reflecting cotton fields below, while ragged fingers pulls sacks of misery down each row. Well, these was (?) to the young in line, (?) make it time. Grandfather (?) job in the yard, a short time later, he was dead, died of a broken heart. Whenever a train whistle blow, I see Black faces, sweat dripping from every pore. Home of the brave, land of the free were only that mocked me. HUNTLEY: What' ; s the inspiration for your poetry? GREENWOOD: I don' ; t know, I just know that I wish that I had an education that I could have been--maybe I might have been somebody near some of the poets that we have today like Langston Hughes or some of those-- HUNTLEY: Have you ever thought about publishing your work? GREENWOOD: I have thought about it and I said once I get down South, everyone gonna try to get me a proofreader and try to get something published. HUNTLEY: That would be great because that' ; s life. They said that nobody can write that but you. GREENWOOD: I saw it, Dr. it was something, yes Lord. HUNTLEY: So, you decided then to--after--how many years--four years in Gary? GREENWOOD: Right-- HUNTLEY: ----to come back? GREENWOOD: I have a cousin who lived in New York City and she worked for Columbia University and she was working in the department where they get the Doctorate, the PhDs whatever and she decided she wanted to come back because we were all raised in Birmingham at an early age. And she said, " ; I just wanted to come back." ; So, we got together and we got a house out in Midfield. So, we live together there now. HUNTLEY: Were you ever married? GREENWOOD: Oh yes. My wife about 15 years ago and I never remarried. HUNTLEY: Did you have children? GREENWOOD: I have a step-daughter and grandchildren, yes. They' ; re in Chicago. HUNTLEY: So you been to Birmingham now for--? GREENWOOD: About six months. HUNTLEY: How has that transition been? GREENWOOD: It was a little harder getting adjusted to it, but only from the point I miss my friends being there all the many years. But, I adjusted, I' ; m getting ready to join Antioch Baptist Church over here. HUNTLEY: That' ; s great. It' ; s great to have you back. GREENWOOD: Oh yes, I' ; m glad to be back. HUNTLEY: We know that you' ; re volunteering here at the Institute. GREENWOOD: Oh yes. HUNTLEY: We really appreciate it. GREENWOOD: Dr. I' ; m really happy to be back. One of the things I thought when I came back, I would see some of my old landlords, but nothing' ; s here, they' ; re all gone. All on the Southside there-- HUNTLEY: UAB has taken most of that. GREENWOOD: Europeans taking everything. HUNTLEY: Well, I really want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule and you' ; ve been very enlightening, and you helped an awful lot. GREENWOOD: Okay, well, I appreciate that, sir. I' ; m glad to be here of service, yes, sir. HUNTLEY: Thank you. GREENWOOD: Thank you This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=SGreenwood2000.xml SGreenwood2000.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Samuel Greenwood (2000)
Description
An account of the resource
Samuel Greenwood discusses growing up in Birmingham, serving in World War II and spending much of his life in Chicago. He focused on poetry after retiring from the educational system in Chicago.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
20001114G
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham
Chicago (Ill.)
World War II
Communist movement
Gary (Ind.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2000-11-14
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/184ed3cba1cb753a61bba5dd7637da2a.jpg
048b28bd478f53db024548b249d0b332
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Horace Huntley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ruth Barefield-Pendleton
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RBPendleton1995.xml
Interview Keyword
This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are
included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
National Urban League
Southern Christian Leadership Conference
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 March 9, 1995 Ruth Barefield-Pendleton Interviewed on March 9, 1995 19950309B 0:55:17 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Raines Whittaker Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Miles College National Urban League Southern Christian Leadership Conference Ruth Barefield-Pendleton Horace Huntley Video 1:|12(6)|34(7)|65(10)|85(1)|102(10)|115(9)|135(8)|148(7)|164(3)|179(6)|195(5)|208(16)|238(12)|252(9)|275(2)|288(7)|298(8)|310(10)|325(11)|342(11)|363(6)|374(10)|397(6)|411(11)|421(2)|439(18)|449(1)|463(4)|481(12)|495(15)|509(10)|529(7)|540(9)|551(17)|580(7)|590(7)|616(6)|627(13)|646(8)|657(5)|671(6)|687(3)|702(5)|715(6)|730(4)|742(10)|755(8)|770(8)|786(2)|808(2)|826(5)|840(11)|849(13) 0 https://youtu.be/ib60jaZvfuE YouTube video English 23 Beginning of Interview I am Dr. Horace Huntley. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute http://www.bcri.org BCRI homepage 56 Personal Background Are you an Alabamian? She is from Mississippi and has family around the south. African American families ; Southern States--History 30.366334, -88.559316 12 Pascagoula, MS 170 Background of her Parents Tell me about the education of your parents, your mother and father. Her parents came to Mississippi around 1920 where they didn't receive much formal education. African American families ; Southern States--History 277 Community Composition Tell me a little about your community, the community that you grew up in. She grew up in a mixed-race area that was impacted by the shipyard there. African American history ; Mississippi--History ; Shipyards--United States 417 College Tell me, after you finished high school, when you went off to college, where did you go to college? Attended liberal arts college and began associations with white people. Tougaloo College African American college students ; Tougaloo (Miss.) 32.404879, -90.160735 12 Tougaloo College 520 Black Community in Adolescence Before we get to Birmingham, though, let me just ask you about your Mississippi experiences. She grew up in a Black community where her mother still lives. African American families ; Home ownership--United States 552 Expectations of Black Women Well, when you left and went off to Tougaloo, what had you decided to do with your life? Encouraged by her father but with few options, she majored in English. Tougaloo College African American families ; African American women 625 Marriage after College Then, after Tougaloo, what did you do? She married after college, her husband went into the military, and they moved around. Mobile (Ala.) ; Moss Point (Miss.) ; Pascagoula (Miss.) African American families ; African American soldiers 853 Teaching in Birmingham So, then you, when you came to Birmingham in '53, did you start teaching at that time? She taught for a few years and went to Miles College for Alabama history. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Miles College African American history ; High school teachers 978 Community Activism After Wenonah, then what, what did you do? She began participation in movements through her church and people she met at Miles College, transporting students, attending meetings, and marching. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Miles College ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 African American civil rights workers ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Civil rights movement 1132 NAACP is Outlawed There were several events that took place between the establishment of the Movement, the Alabama Christian Movement in '56 and 1963. While still teaching, she was a member of the NAACP but membership was outlawed and grounds for firing. African American teachers ; Alabama--History ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 1238 Police Surveillance of Meetings Now another organization, the Alabama Council on Human Relations, met regularly at my church, the First Congregational Church. Undercover police would infiltrate meetings and record attendees. African American churches ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Alabama Council on Human Relations ; Civil rights movement ; Police patrol--Surveillance operations 1383 Organizational Make-Up What was the make-up of that organization, the ratio between Blacks and whites? She organized with many white people and with Miles College students. Miles College Civil rights movement 1432 Support of Miles College Students How did that affect Miles College? She actively assisted Miles College students in major civil rights activism. Miles College African American civil rights workers ; Alabama--History ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Civil rights movement 1582 Freedom Rides In '61 the Freedom Rides took place. She remembers when the Freedom Rides came to Birmingham and the attendant violence. Civil rights movement ; Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Police brutality ; Racism 1711 Selective Buying Campaign In '62 then, we get to the Selective Buying Campaign. She participated with Miles College students and others in promoting the Selective Buying Campaign. Miles College Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Boycotts--Alabama ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Civil rights movement 1871 Southern Christian Leadership Conference Then, we move into 1963, and of course... She organized with SCLC and was secretary of the Central Committee. Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 African American civil rights workers ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Civil rights movement ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 2078 Mass Meetings and Mothering You were at all of those meetings? She balanced full time participation in the Movement and still caring for her children. African American families ; African American women civil rights workers ; Civil rights movement 2250 Involvement in the Movement You participated very fervently during the...this April and May period, you being the secretary... She was involved in a lot of activity, which was often risky, but avoided arrest. African American civil rights workers ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Civil rights movement 2363 Support from her Husband As you, you were so active, what did your husband say about your activity? Her husband was supportive of her involvement and occasionally participated. African American civil rights workers ; African American families 2434 Participation of Teachers and Students In Selma, one of the things that broke that Movement was...well not broke the movement, but assisted the Movement was the assistance of teachers. Teachers assisted how and when it was possible, especially when students were involved. Civil rights demonstrations ; Civil rights movement ; Teachers 2577 Church Support What church, I think we've talked about this briefly, but what church were you a member of again? Her church was very active in the Civil Rights Movement. African American churches ; Civil rights movement 2672 Water Hose Attacks Tell me, are there any recollections that stand out in your memory during this period that probably, probably stand out more than any other, than any single incidents that you remember? She recalls the police and firefighters using water hoses on people coming out of church. Civil rights demonstrations ; Civil rights movement ; Police brutality 2810 Voter Registration Work Tell me also about your activity, because I know that you were a member of the NAACP and you worked in voter registration campaign with W. C. Patten. She worked on registering Black voters and helping them so they would qualify. Civil rights movement ; Civil rights workers ; Voter registration 3029 Urban League Activity Tell me about your activity with the Urban League. She volunteered with the Urban League, where she was a secretary. African American civil rights workers ; National Urban League 3104 Assessment of the Birmingham Movement What is your assessment of the Birmingham movement? She recognizes many successes that came out of the Movement and the civil rights bills that resulted. African American civil rights workers ; Alabama--History ; Civil rights movement ; United States. Voting Rights Act of 1965 Oral History Ruth Barefield-Pendleton discusses serving as secretary of the Central Committee of SCLC after growing up and teaching in Birmingham. She also served as secretary of the Urban League. HUNTLEY: I am Dr. Horace Huntley. This is an interview with Mrs. Ruth Barefield- Pendleton from the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. We are at Miles College, March 9, 1995. Good afternoon, Mrs. Pendleton. B-PENDLETON: Good afternoon, Dr. Huntley. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much for coming out...taking time out of your busy schedule today to sit and talk with us about the Civil Rights Movement. Before we get into asking questions about the Movement itself, I' ; d like to get a little background. Are you an Alabamian? B-PENDLETON: No, I' ; m not. I come from Pascagoula, Mississippi. HUNTLEY: Pascagoula, Mississippi? Okay. B-PENDLETON: A foreigner to the west. HUNTLEY: Well, Pascagoula, that' ; s down on the coast, is that right? B-PENDLETON: That' ; s right. It' ; s the beginning of the Mississippi gulf coast. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. Then, were your parents from Mississippi? B-PENDLETON: No, my parents come from Monroe County, Alabama from the community of Chrysler, Alabama which is no longer in existence. But, at an early age, they left and came to Pascagoula when Pascagoula was known as Scranton, Mississippi and that was back in early 1919. HUNTLEY: I see. B-PENDLETON: So, they really...well my mother is still living at 99 years, my father died two years ago at 97 and they were married for 76 years. HUNTLEY: So, they in fact were Mississippians? B-PENDLETON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Well, how many brothers and sisters do you have? B-PENDLETON: I have two brothers and two sisters. HUNTLEY: Are they still in Mississippi? B-PENDLETON: No, one brother is in Gadsden, Alabama, another brother is in Atlanta, Georgia and a sister is in Mobile, Alabama and a sister is in Philadelphia, Mississippi. HUNTLEY: So, you guys are just scattered all over the country? B-PENDLETON: Scattered, but not too far, though. HUNTLEY: So, how do you fit in there? Were you the second... B-PENDLETON: I' ; m the youngest of the five. HUNTLEY: So, you were the spoiled one of the family? B-PENDLETON: No, the outspoken one. The youngest can always get away with more than the others. HUNTLEY: Absolutely. Tell me about the education of your parents, your mother and your father. B-PENDLETON: Well, my father' ; s formal education went to the 7th grade. He used to like to say he had his trunk packed for Mr. Washington' ; s school in Tuskeegee. But his formal education really stopped at the 7th grade when his mother died shortly...she didn' ; t want him to go to Tuskeegee because she said that she had heard that the White men were killing the Coloreds who were trying to get an education. We were Colored back then. HUNTLEY: Right. B-PENDLETON: So, he took his young bride and he left after his mother died and went to Pascagoula. HUNTLEY: I see. B-PENDLETON: Now my mother says that her education really began when her children began school. She still studies, even to this day at 99, when her mail comes, she reads it first. HUNTLEY: She reads her own mail, that' ; s great, great. What about occupations? B-PENDLETON: My father, in the early years was a truck driver for a lumber company and then he began to work for the post office in a janitorial position and he worked up to become a mail carrier. He picked up mail from sub-stations and drove them to the main post office. My mother was always a housewife. HUNTLEY: And, this is Mississippi, early 19th century, I mean 20th century? B-PENDLETON: This is early, well around 1919-1920. HUNTLEY: Mid 20s? B-PENDLETON: Now, he did not start working for the post office until I was in high school, but before then his occupation was a truck driver. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your community, the community that you grew up in. B-PENDLETON: Well, Pascagoula is a seaport town. It was really founded by the Jesuit priests. It' ; s a catholic town, however, we were one of the few protestant families in the community and before the shipyard came there, Ingalls Shipyard, all Whites and Blacks knew each other. But then with the coming of the shipyard you had a lot of transients...you know a lot of people coming in, so it has grown to be the third largest city in Mississippi. Jackson, Meridian and then Pascagoula. HUNTLEY: What about the racial make-up? B-PENDLETON: Well, I have not lived there since I left to go to college, but the racial climate seems to be improving. You see, the coastal part of Mississippi was never as rigid in its well, the Delta, you know. HUNTLEY: The Delta is the Black belt area? B-PENDLETON: The Delta is the Black belt area and anywhere where Blacks outnumbered Whites, the climate is not good. Well down on the Mississippi gulf coast it was a little better. And then, the occupations...you know, it was better economically also, because of the shipyard. HUNTLEY: So the shipyard was really where most people worked? B-PENDLETON: Where most people worked and still do. And then, of course, you have a cannery out on Cat Island. You' ; ve got these businesses that sprang up from the shipyard. You have a fertilizer factory over on another island and of course, the fertilizer is made from poagy fish.. HUNTLEY: Interesting. B-PENDLETON: And, of course, now the industry is the lott...uh gambling. HUNTLEY: Right, absolutely. B-PENDLETON: You know, down in that area. HUNTLEY: Tell me, after you finished high school, when you went off to college, where did you go to college? B-PENDLETON: I went to Tougaloo College, Tougaloo, Mississippi. And this is on the other side of Jackson. Now Jackson' ; s suburbs has grown so much that it reaches the suburbs of Toogaloo. Now Tougaloo is just a whistle stop. The only thing there is the campus and a few families that live outside of the community. HUNTLEY: Well, tell me, how was the transition from Pascagoula to Tougaloo? B-PENDLETON: Well, it wasn' ; t hard. Tougaloo is a private, liberal arts school. It is the sister school to Talladega and to Fisk. It was founded by the American Missionary Association They came south, set up schools and churches for the children of the new freed Black man. Well, when I went to college, the faculty was predominately White. The president was White, so my association with Whites, that was the beginning...there at Tougaloo. And, of course, when I moved to Alabama, the first thing I did was to look for a congregational church. You see, Tougaloo is a congregational school. HUNTLEY: Right. B-PENDLETON: When I went to the congregational church, I met Rev. Harold Long who was the pastor there...who was also very involved in the civil rights struggles. HUNTLEY: Right. Before we get to Birmingham, though, let me just ask you about your Mississippi experiences. Prior to going to Tougaloo, you lived in a Black community, I assume? B-PENDLETON: I lived in a Black community. The home house is still there. My mother and father ran the household. As a matter of fact, it' ; s the house that I was born in and we still live in the family house. HUNTLEY: Is that where your mother still lives? B-PENDLETON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Oh, that' ; s interesting. Well, when you left and went off to Tougaloo, what had you decided to do with your life? B-PENDLETON: Well, at that time, Black people...women in particular you either were going to be a teacher, or a nurse. I didn' ; t want to be either of those things. Of course, I ended up being a teacher and uh, my father who was not formally educated beyond the 7th grade, always said that " ; you need to stand for something, stand up for something and live well, so someone will stand up for you." ; And, of course, he said Tougaloo would be the best school to go to. He first was talking about Mr. Washington' ; s school, Tuskeegee, but my principal influenced me a lot to go to Tougaloo. And, I loved it. HUNTLEY: What was your major? B-PENDLETON: My major? English...a minor in history, a minor in library science. HUNTLEY: Then, after Tougaloo, what did you do? B-PENDLETON: I married. I married my present husband. HUNTLEY: Did you meet him there in school? B-PENDLETON: No, he came to my hometown to practice medicine and he was the first Black doctor to come into Pascagoula.and I came home from college one summer and I met him. HUNTLEY: Then after you finished at Tougaloo, did you go back then to Pascagoula? B-PENDLETON: Yes. My husband went to Korea. I was in Pascagoula while he was in Korea for 10 months and then, when he came back from Korea, we went to Fort Sill, Oklahoma. HUNTLEY: Okay. How long then was he in the military? B-PENDLETON: He was in the military until I asked him to retire....uh... when the Korean campaign started, they needed physicians. They gave him one month, to close his office and another week he was in California and in three weeks he was on the front lines at an aid station in North Korea, not North Korea, South Korea. He was there when the North Koreans came across the Border or came down. And, then when he came back to the states, he came later to Fort Sill, Oklahoma and that' ; s where I joined him. HUNTLEY: Well, while he was in Korea and you were in Pascagoula... B-PENDLETON: I was in Pascagoula and I taught school at Moss Point, Mississippi. HUNTLEY: Moss Point. B-PENDLETON: You know that name. HUNTLEY: Yes, absolutely. B-PENDLETON: Well, Moss Point is to Pascagoula like Mountain Brook is to Birmingham. It' ; s about three miles. HUNTLEY: Moss Point, is that not an all Black town? B-PENDLETON: Oh no, no, it' ; s not an all Black town. HUNTLEY: But, it was a rather well off... B-PENDLETON: They have a Black mayor now. HUNTLEY: Okay. Well, is that why you came to Birmingham? B-PENDLETON: No, no. When my husband came back from Korea, when he got out of the army at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, he came to Mobile, Alabama to practice medicine. We stayed there about a year. Five physicians came in at one time, three were local boys and two were outside of Mobile. I call it our starvation period. So, after a year, we moved to Bessemer, Alabama and his office is still in Roosevelt City. That' ; s where I lived when we first came here. That was in 1953. HUNTLEY: Did you teach in Mobile or in Oklahoma? B-PENDLETON: No, no I, I was busy having babies. I had two. HUNTLEY: So, then you, when you then came to Birmingham in ' ; 53, did you start teaching at that time? B-PENDLETON: I started teaching the next school session and that' ; s when I discovered that you had to have Alabama history before you could teach in the public school system. I taught at Wenonah High School, but I came to Miles College to get Alabama history, and I was out there a summer, and that' ; s where I met, uh, a lot of good people who influenced me. Myrtle Blissett, who is no longer here and at that time, Dr. Bell was the president and then, of course, I met Dr. Williams President after him. But, the person who most influenced my life was Dr. Lucius Pitts. I met Dr. Lucius Pitts and, uh, I' ; m getting ahead of myself, but that' ; s how I happened to get to Miles College. HUNTLEY: Okay, so you taught at Wenonah until...? B-PENDLETON: I taught at Wenonah until my children became school age and my husband and I both agreed that that' ; s a full-time job, to be at home. HUNTLEY: Were you living in Roosevelt at the time? B-PENDLETON: I was living in Roosevelt City. HUNTLEY: It appears that we.... B-PENDLETON: I moved to Birmingham in 1958. That' ; s when I retired from teaching. HUNTLEY: Okay. B-PENDLETON: I haven' ; t taught since 1958. HUNTLEY: Is that right. We seemed to have crossed paths at Wenonah. That was my first year of Wenonah and well my first year was ' ; 57 so, ' ; 57 to ' ; 58 school year was my first year, and evidently, that was your last year. B-PENDLETON: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: So, we did cross paths. We both had ' ; 58s in mind because we' ; re from minorities. After Wenonah, then what, what did you do? B-PENDLETON: Well, that' ; s when I became active in the community. We moved from Roosevelt City to Birmingham where I live now. It' ; s the area called College Hills in Smithfield, and at that time they were calling it " ; Dynamite Hill," ; . I joined the congregational church there. My pastor was very active in the Movement. I met my close and dear friend Deenie Drew, who lives around the corner from me. The two of us... and there' ; s another friend, Mrs. Montgomery, Althea Montgomery. We would go out to Miles college and assist Mr. Jonathan McPherson who was working with the students at Miles. At that time the students didn' ; t have adequate transportation. There were not many students with cars. So, what we did, we would provide transportation for them. They, would blanket the community during the selective buying campaign. We took the students to all of the communities in the Jefferson County area. HUNTLEY: Let me ask you, let me back you up just a bit and ask you about getting involved...your initial...in 1958, when you moved to College Hills...the Movement. The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized in 1956 and they started with mass meetings at that time, did you attend any of those meetings? B-PENDLETON: I went to mass meetings almost nightly. Uh, at that time, I had full time help and I had a lot of baby sitters, so during mass meetings.I never joined the Alabama Christian Movement, but every time Fred Shuttlesworth marched, I marched. Uh, they used to joke with me and say " ; Ruth, you got on your walking shoes?" ; And, it was there where I met people like Georgia Price and, and Lola Hendricks. Deenie would pick me up, or I would pick her up and we would go to the mass meetings. HUNTLEY: There were several events that took place between the establishment of the Movement, the Alabama Christian Movement in ' ; 56 and 1963. The first issue that the Movement dealt with was the issue of hiring of Black police. One of the key issues, of course was the integration of schools. In ' ; 57 when Rev. Shuttlesworth and his wife were attacked... B-PENDLETON: I remember that. No, in ' ; 57 I was teaching. Now you remember, if you were a school teacher, you could not even be a card carrying member of the NAACP. HUNTLEY: Why couldn' ; t you be a card carrying member of the NAACP? B-PENDLETON: Well, they had outlawed the NAACP here in Alabama, and I had joined the NAACP in Mobile, Alabama so I did not have to come to join, I was already a member. And someone told me, " ; Ruth, you shouldn' ; t carry that card around." ; But, I did. I' ; m getting off the subject now. HUNTLEY: No, that' ; s a good piece of the story, because in ' ; 57 if you had a card, a NAACP card in your pocket and you were... B-PENDLETON: You were subject to be fired from your job. HUNTLEY: Was that, was that simply something that was understood or did someone tell you that? B-PENDLETON: This is what...well, you know, if you taught, you would hear rumors and this is what was said. That you don' ; t carry your NAACP card around with you and I said " ; why?" ; and of course, they said, " ; well, Ruth, you know, they outlawed it." ; Well anyway. Now another organization, the Alabama Council on Human Relations, met regularly at my church, the First Congregational Church. HUNTLEY: Now that' ; s an inter-racial .... B-PENDLETON: That' ; s an inter-racial group. And, I joined that, went to several of the meetings. I can recall coming outside of the church and the policemen would be walking around the parking lot, writing down the tag numbers of the car. And that was so they could know up who was inside the church. What White people were there and these people were automatically branded communists. That is where I met Eileen Walbert. HUNTLEY: The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights meetings were actually attended by police officers. B-PENDLETON: Oh yes, there would be plain clothesmen, they would come on the grounds like they would at the mass meetings. HUNTLEY: Did they do the same thing at the meetings at your congregational church? B-PENDLETON: I never knew if any of them came inside the church. They would be outside, in the parking lot. HUNTLEY: Simply..taking... B-PENDLETON: Taking the number, the tag number of the cars. HUNTLEY: How did that affect attendance? B-PENDLETON: Well, these people had to be very brave because they always had a pretty large number of persons attending. Now, I had just moved up on the hill, didn' ; t have as many baby sitters, and so, of course...I say baby sitters, my children were school age, but I guess the word would be sitters. Didn' ; t have too many of them. But when I lined up some of the sitters when I first moved up there, Angela Davis was one of my sitters. Angela' ; s sister Fania was one of my sitters. Her brother, Bennie was one of my sitters, and of course, Jamie Collins, whose sister, Addie, was killed at the 16th Street bombing, was one of my sitters. So, I had a lot of people I could call on. This was in the early years. We haven' ; t gotten to ' ; 63 because Angela was gone by that time. HUNTLEY: What was the make-up of that organization. The ratio between Blacks and Whites? B-PENDLETON: There were more Whites than Blacks. HUNTLEY: Were most of the Black people that were involved, were they your neighbors? Did they live on...in College Hills? B-PENDLETON: The Drew' ; s and no, some of them came from other parts of the city, I can' ; t think of this lady' ; s name, but I see her face right now. HUNTLEY: Right. In 1960, was the year that the sit-ins started. Of course, in North Carolina and then they really swept the entire South. B-PENDLETON: Yes. It started with students. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. B-PENDLETON: That' ; s when I came out...I was working with the Miles students. HUNTLEY: How did that affect Miles College? Was Miles involved in that at all. B-PENDLETON: Well, Dr. Lucius Pitts invited Deanie Drew, Althea Montgomery and myself to come out and see if we would could help the students because they did need transportation and we became known as the " ; den mothers" ; for Miles College. HUNTLEY: You mean he asked you to come out to provide... B-PENDLETON: To come out and see whatever we could do to help. He didn' ; t tell us to get involved, but he directed us to Dr. Jonathan McPherson. I think he' ; s still on the faculty out there, I' ; m not sure. But anyway, these were the things that Dr. Jonathan McPherson told us they needed. They needed transportation. We would drive out to Miles, pick up students, take them downtown and they would try to sit in at Loveman' ; s, Pizitz, any place that had a lunch counter. Kress, Woolworth' ; s, Britts, those were the five places. HUNTLEY: So you are suggesting there was concerted effort between the administration and the student body to demonstrate in downtown Birmingham. Dr. Pitts was behind the students 100% and the students of Miles worked diligently. Some were arrested. We would go to court with them and that' ; s when they started calling us " ; den mothers of Miles" ; . And, of course, bail bond. Dr. Pitts said, " ; you know we are a methodist school, we don' ; t have any money for bail bonds." ; But, the children...I don' ; t remember any of the students having to stay overnight in jail. They went to jail. Now this was before SCLC came into the city and then the students to work with the Alabama Christian Movement. All of these things were going on at the same time. And that' ; s when they blanketed the community, asking the citizens to stay away from the stores. This is when the selective buying campaign started. HUNTLEY: Before we get to the selective buying, because we are talking about ' ; 62 then and that becomes a really big issue. B-PENDLETON: Now I don' ; t remember these dates, now don' ; t you... HUNTLEY: That' ; s why I' ; ll throw those out to you, but in ' ; 61 the Freedom Rides took place. B-PENDLETON: Oh yeah, I remember when they came through and they were beaten up so terrible. Well, they were stopped in Anniston and then when they got to the bus station here in Birmingham, they were met by people with baseball bats and chains and it was terrible. HUNTLEY: There were individuals here who actually...I think some of them went to Anniston to pick up some of the riders. Shuttlesworth, of course was called in. He was at the bus station and some of the people went out to his church and out to his home. What do you remember about that particular episode, may be through newspapers or may be through just discussions with individuals who were involved or people that you knew? Are there any recollections that you had about... B-PENDLETON: No, what I remember most about that, it was how brutal the, uh, the White man was, and all these people were doing, were doing was riding the bus, going through the South. And, uh, they had stopped this bus in Anniston and some of the riders were taken from the bus and beaten and then when they came into Birmingham, I remember reading, and I wasn' ; t involved in this at all, but I do remember reading that there were Blacks and we were not called Blacks then, we were called Negroes. There were Negroes who met them at the station also. And, the Whites were there and there was a great confrontation. HUNTLEY: Now.. B-PENDLETON: The climate was not good at all. The climate was not good. It was a frightening situation. HUNTLEY: In ' ; 62 then, we get to the Selective Buying Campaign. Can you tell me about the organization of that? How did that materialize? B-PENDLETON: Well, the students of Miles, uh, made leaflets and we would take them to each community and they would drop packages of leaflets off at the churches in the community. They would also go from door to door, passing out leaflets, urging the people not to shop downtown and I think it was very effective. Not nearly as effective as we wanted it to be, but no one could say they did not know a boycott was going on in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: And, you couldn' ; t use the term " ; boycott," ; right? B-PENDLETON: No. HUNTLEY: That was against the law. B-PENDLETON: Selective Buying Campaign. HUNTLEY: What initiated the Selective Buying Campaign? Why a Selective Buying Campaign? B-PENDLETON: Well, there were certain things that the Alabama Christian Movement, and Rev. Shuttlesworth, they had been asking for for the past 6-7 years. And that was the upgrading of the Black people who were already working at the stores, from hiring sales persons, training for the managerial positions. Desegregation of the lunch counters, simple, basic things. Desegregation of the toilets, desegregation of water fountains. These were the things that they were asking for. Nothing that . . . HUNTLEY: Nothing really revolutionary? B-PENDLETON: That' ; s right, nothing really revolutionary. HUNTLEY: The students. . .Miles College. . .was it correct that Miles College actually had a campaign, a fund raising campaign at the time and, I believe they were soliciting funds and the city or someone. . . B-PENDLETON: They went from door-to-door as they did with the leaflets with cups and, you know, asking for donations. And, of course, I think that was relatively successful. HUNTLEY: So, then this was really when the Movement, the Alabama Christian Movement and Miles College students... B-PENDLETON: Started working together, yes. HUNTLEY: Then, we move into 1963, and of course... B-PENDLETON: Yeah, that was when the SCLC came into the city at the invitation of Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth of the Alabama Christian Movement. And, of course, the city was going through its changes. You know, we had Mayor and a commissioner form of government at that time. Three commissioners--Bull Conner, Jabo Wagner and Art Haynes was the mayor. Well, we elected Albert Boutwell for mayor and nine council men, council persons now. But anyway, uh, they could not take their seat because, Bull Conner and Art Haynes and Jabo Wagner would not move out. HUNTLEY: Right. B-PENDLETON: But anyway, uh, Rev. Shuttlesworth had invited the SCLC to come into the city and before it was known that SCLC was in the city, uh, some of the personnel of the SCLC had been in for two weeks, you know recruiting folk to work. I didn' ; t even know that they were in the city until the uh, the uh, the call went out " ; come, we need your help," ; and since I was already out there working with the students, I went down. HUNTLEY: You got involved... B-PENDLETON: I got involved with the.... HUNTLEY: Was this the beginning then of the mass meetings that would take place in April and May? B-PENDLETON: This was, this was the beginning when the SCLC came into the city. I went down when they asked for the citizens to please come, " ; we need your support." ; I went down and they wanted the citizens of Birmingham to be involved so that the White city people...citizens could not justifiably say outside agitators. So, they set up this committee. This committee, it was called the Central Committee and I was elected secretary of the Central Committee. Now the Central Committee was made up mostly of ministers because these... HUNTLEY: Why ministers? B-PENDLETON: Well, these were persons who did not have to answer to the White man. He did not worry about losing his job and then, of course, the Black ministers could reach more Black people than any other person in the community. So, uh, through the Alabama Christian Movement and SCLC, many Black ministers showed up that day. And, Deenie Drew and I were there. And, I was elected secretary of that committee, and we met in room 30 every morning. Some days, it would be in the afternoon. HUNTLEY: And, you were at all of those meetings? B-PENDLETON: Sometimes I could not. It depend...it would depend on how long my, my...the lady that worked for me could stay. She came in the morning at 9:00 and she stayed until 4:00. So, I did not leave until she was there and she did not leave until Denise and Tyree were home from school. Those are my children. HUNTLEY: Right. B-PENDLETON: And, by the time she left at 4:00, I was back at home. And then when the mass meetings started, around 6:00, I was gone again. But, between 4:00 and sometimes 6 or 7:00 depending...we did homework and things like that. HUNTLEY: Oh, so you did take the time to do the homework with the kids and.... B-PENDLETON: Oh, every night, we did homework. HUNTLEY: And then you' ; d leave there going to the mass meetings? B-PENDLETON: Go to the mass meetings. HUNTLEY: Did your children ever go to the mass meetings? B-PENDLETON: No, my children never went to the mass meetings. My children went with me to Selma. My children went with me, and with my husband and me to Montgomery and but not here in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Not to the mass meetings? B-PENDLETON: Not to the mass meetings. HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what a mass meeting was like? B-PENDLETON: The mass meeting was a combination of a revival, a political rally, non-partisan that is, and a camp meeting. It was very fiery, you had a lot of singing of freedom songs, spirituals...you had a lot of speech making and you would always find a.The churches would be full, every night. It did not start off that way, but, it grew and it got to the point where you could not get a seat. The churches would be full. They met at different churches. Sixteenth Street Baptist Church, St. Paul which is up the next block from Sixteenth Street, St. James, and Sixth Avenue Baptist. Sixth Avenue Baptist was over where the medical center is now. It was on Sixth Avenue. I think New Pilgrim. HUNTLEY: On the same corner as Sixteenth Street. B-PENDLETON: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: One on the north side. in fact, I' ; ve heard someone say, I think it was Rev. Oliver, he said " ; Sixteenth Street South." ; B-PENDLETON: Sixteenth Street, yes. HUNTLEY: Sixteenth Street South, that was... B-PENDLETON: You know Rev. Oliver, he was a member of the Alabama Council on Human Relations, I think that' ; s where I first met him. And, then he became a member of this Central Committee. HUNTLEY: You participated very fervently during the. this April and May period, you being the secretary. . . B-PENDLETON: Yes, but I did other things. HUNTLEY: Okay. B-PENDLETON: We made placards. We picked up people at the airports. I ran road blocks. I ran around road blocks. That is, I would pick up demonstrators, Bull Conner would block off the streets, 5th Avenue, 19th Street, 4th Avenue, so we would go around down to 13th Street and go across to 1st Avenue North, put the demonstrators out at 19th Street and they would walk down to Pizitz, to Britts, to you know...so I did more than just write the minutes. HUNTLEY: So, you were actually in the thick of things? B-PENDLETON: Yes. And then of course, they made me chairman of the Transportation Committee, so what I did, I asked my friends who I knew were not working during that time, Deenie Drew and I, Althea Montgomery, Ruth Gaillard, Willa Adams...these were ladies who were at home. Also, we asked Rhett Bradford. . . we asked them to come, bring your cars, we need transportation. People were coming in from everywhere and we had to pick them up and get them out. HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested? B-PENDLETON: No, but I had my toothbrush with me and I carry my toothbrush with me to this day. If you look over there in the pocket book, you' ; ll find a toothbrush. HUNTLEY: You' ; re like the boy scouts, you' ; re prepared. B-PENDLETON: I was prepared. HUNTLEY: As you, you were so active, what did your husband say about your activity? B-PENDLETON: He encouraged me. He was paying for the gasoline for my car. He was paying for the food or materials, for the placards, or whatever. He went to his office every day and then at night, he would come home and he would help patrol our neighborhood. You see, we lived in, well, it was called " ; Dynamite Hill" ; at that time and it was also a target for the KKK and the men in the neighborhood would patrol that area because they were planting bombs at Arthur Shores house and the catholic church down there. And he went to Montgomery with us. He went to Selma once and when the march began, from Selma to Montgomery, he was medical officer of the day, that is, he went down one afternoon, manned an aid station all that day and night and came back the next day. He made available, bond money for demonstrators that had been jailed. HUNTLEY: In Selma, one of the things that broke that Movement was...well not broke the movement, but assisted the Movement was the assistance of teachers. Teachers finally came out. Were there ever efforts here in Birmingham, those of you who had been teachers and had associations with other teachers to get others who were still in the classroom? B-PENDLETON: Well, if they were in the classroom, they could not very well...we were not asking anyone to jeopardize their jobs. But, they supported in other ways. There were some who supported in others ways, financially. You know, they always needed money. HUNTLEY: So, the...go ahead. B-PENDLETON: And, of course, when the students of the schools came out, well that was another situation where the teachers did not discourage the students not to go. And, of course, we would drive to the campus of the schools, but we couldn' ; t go on the campus to pick the kids up. That is the children who lived way out in North Birmingham. Rev. Bevell, Rev. Andrew Young, well we called them Bevell and Andy at that time. They would tell us what school the kids were coming out and they needed to be picked up. But, some of these kids came out from schools a long distance away and they walked to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church and the teachers did not discourage them as far as we know. There were some, I understand that did, but very few. HUNTLEY: Where were your children in school at the time? B-PENDLETON: At Wilkerson Elementary School. HUNTLEY: Were kids from Wilkerson leaving school and getting involved? B-PENDLETON: I don' ; t remember if any of them did. I really don' ; t know. My children did not go. They were...well there were kids as young as they were, 9 and 10 and that time. My husband was opposed to taking them out of school. HUNTLEY: What church, I think we' ; ve talked about this briefly, but what church were you a member of again? B-PENDLETON: The First Congregational Church. HUNTLEY: What was the level of its involvement? B-PENDLETON: Very active. Harold Long, Rev. Harold Long was the pastor of the First Congregational church at that time and he was very involved. And, uh, I think, I' ; m not sure of this, but First Congregational was one of the few churches where inter-racial groups could meet. The Pastor Joseph Alwinger' ; s church over on Sixth Avenue South of the Lutheran Church, they could meet there. But, for some reason I think they felt a little safer, I don' ; t know, but they did meet at my church and I understand that St. Marks opened their doors. HUNTLEY: So the congregation then was in support of... B-PENDLETON: The congregation supported Rev. Long and we have a very small congregation. And, you see, Arthur Shores, one of the lawyers at that time for the Movement, one of the lawyers, is a member of that church, and our present...the Executive Director of the Civil Rights Institute, Odessa Woolfolk, is a member of that church. HUNTLEY: So you all have a lot of rebels in that church. Tell me, are there any recollections that stand out in your memory during this period that probably, probably stand out more than any other, than any single incidents that you remember? B-PENDLETON: Well, the day, that the first time they turned the water hose on the children when they came out of Sixteenth Street Church there at Kelly Ingram Park. See every time they marched, if they were going to march to the courthouse, we marched, if we could. We would always end up at the back of the line, but we marched. HUNTLEY: Who are we? B-PENDLETON: Deenie Drew and I. We marched with the kids. And, that day, we were at the back of the line when they came out of the church and to see the water hose turned on,the pressure from the water hose, turned on those young people, well there were young and old, it' ; s heart rendering. It was terrible. HUNTLEY: You see that on film today, what do you... B-PENDLETON: It brings back... refresh memories, it really does. Uh, I can also remember a time when we were marching over to the jailhouse and, uh, over on Sixth Avenue South and Bull Conner order the policeman...oh, I get my marches mixed up sometime, but we were marching and Bull Conner order them to turn the water hose on and that day, one fireman did not turn his on and had tears in his eyes, I remember that. HUNTLEY: So, that meant that you were pretty close to the front? B-PENDLETON: Sometimes, sometimes. Most of the time I was doing other things and they needed people to do other things. HUNTLEY: Tell me also about your activity, because I know that you were a member of the NAACP and you worked in voter registration campaign with W. C. Patten, can you tell me a little about that? B-PENDLETON: Yes, uh Mr. Patten was asking for volunteers. I went down and we used the city directory to compile the voters list. We took the city directory and we wrote the names of every Black male and Black female listed. HUNTLEY: Well, how did you know who was Black or not? B-PENDLETON: The city had already done the work for us. They coded the book behind the name of White male they had a " ; one" ; , by the name of a White female, they had a " ; 2" ; . By the name by a Black male " ; 3" ; , by the name of a Black female " ; 4" ; , so all we had to do was just list the names that were numbered 3s and 4s. We wrote the names, addresses and telephone numbers and then we compiled these voter lists by communities and we would call...there were other people now, not just Deanie and myself. There were other persons helping. We would call these persons, uh, ask them if they were registered voters and if they said no, and nine times out of ten they would say no, we would tell them about the clinics that were being held to educate people to register and vote. HUNTLEY: How successful were those efforts? B-PENDLETON: It was very successful because Black people wanted that opportunity to vote and they would go to these clinics and, they were taught how to register to vote. HUNTLEY: Would this be in the 50s or the 60s? B-PENDLETON: Now this was in...this was early 60s. Now in the 50s...let me go back just a minute. HUNTLEY: Sure. B-PENDLETON: I was teaching at Wenonah High School, I lived in Roosevelt City. We had to go over to the community of Wilkes which is across the highway from Val Hallow and Midfield. We had to go across to Wilkes to register to vote. They had questions, real long list of questions. They would ask questions like who was the dog catcher in the Bessemer cut- off area and you know, things like that. And, I smuggled a list of the questions out, took it to my class, I was teaching American History. I had it xeroxed, and took it to my class. HUNTLEY: At Wenonah? B-PENDLETON: At Wenonah and gave it to my students and they took it home to their parents and the parents studied them so they could pass the test, to learn to vote...I mean, that is to qualify rather. HUNTLEY: Sure, sure. That' ; s very interesting because we all know the kinds of questions that..... B-PENDLETON: They were ridiculous. HUNTLEY: And, if you didn' ; t B-PENDLETON: If you didn' ; t know... HUNTLEY: Absolutely. B-PENDLETON: Well, that' ; s how some of my students' ; parents got the questions. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your activity with the Urban League? B-PENDLETON: Well, at that time, there was a young man by the name of Clarence Wood that was here in Birmingham, he was a Birmingham boy and he invited me down to work with the Urban League. And, or course, you know they had a different program, that is training people. We knew that if the doors were opened, that we the people were demonstrating to open, that you had to have qualified people to fill these jobs. So, that was the role of the Urban League and, I helped in whatever way that I could. I don' ; t remember all that, but I was secretary for awhile and I stopped that too. HUNTLEY: So, you have volunteered, you have really been a professional volunteer. You' ; ve helped in a lot of areas... B-PENDLETON: No, I do absolutely nothing but work with my church. HUNTLEY: You do what you want to do now. B-PENDLETON: Well, I' ; m a docent at the Civil Rights Institute. HUNTLEY: Sure. What is your assessment of the Birmingham movement? How successful? What were it' ; s accomplishments? B-PENDLETON: Well, I think that the Birmingham movement was a moral mirror for the rest of the country. I think that it was the catalyst really that. . . the results were the 1964 Voting Rights bill. True, the people in Selma, you know the crossing of the Pettus Bridge, they were instrumental in encouraging...not encouraging but making Lyndon Johnson act on the civil, on the voting rights bill, but the Birmingham movement was catalyst for the movement in Selma, that' ; s my opinion. I really think so. HUNTLEY: Birmingham precedes the ' ; 64 Public Accommodations Bill, also... B-PENDLETON: That' ; s true, that' ; s true. HUNTLEY: And, that leads then to the Voting Rights Bill. B-PENDLETON: That' ; s true. That' ; s what I mean when I say, the moral mirror and that' ; s not my words. I picked that up from someone else, some book I read, I don' ; t know. HUNTLEY: What do you think were the real issues? B-PENDLETON: Well, in the beginning, the real issues, we were just asking for basic necessity. Things that were. . . that you would expect any citizen to want. The right to sit and eat. The right to relieve yourself ; public accommodations. The right to go to whatever school you want to do to these were the things that happened and only those persons who had the, the money and/ or the education could really take advantage of these things. HUNTLEY: But, if you were Black, even if you had the money and the education,.... B-PENDLETON: That' ; s right, here in Birmingham, we didn' ; t have those opportunities. HUNTLEY: Well, are there any other things that we have not touched upon that you would just like to mention, I know that you' ; ve talked an awful lot about a lot of things, and what we' ; ll normally do is to, to look at this and we possibly. We' ; ll have a follow-up at some point because I know that in an hour' ; s time, we really. You know, I think it evokes and it stirs up some of your memories, but I' ; m sure when you get home you' ; re going to remember some other things and then we, uh we will possibly want to do this again. But, I want to thank you for coming out, taking your time from your busy schedule and sitting with us today. B-PENDLETON: Thank you for asking. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RBPendleton1995.xml RBPendleton1995.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ruth Barefield-Pendleton
Description
An account of the resource
Ruth Barefield-Pendleton discusses serving as secretary of the Central Committee of SCLC after growing up and teaching in Birmingham. She also served as secretary of the Urban League.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
19950309B
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Miles College
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1995-03-09
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/e9e1485122966e9d7cdd5f8854820102.jpg
59bfa5291a64c779a4530e3effbd1f3a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Binnie Myles
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ruby Odom Cotton
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ROCotton1996.xml
Interview Keyword
This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are
included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
Lunch Counter Protest
Children's Crusade
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 May 15, 1996 Ruby Odom Cotton Interviewed on May 15, 1996 19960515C 1:04:32 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Lunch Counter Protest Children's Crusade Ruby Odom Cotton Binnie Myles Video 1:|27(6)|52(5)|71(14)|105(4)|121(13)|137(10)|152(10)|171(10)|187(3)|201(8)|215(1)|228(8)|241(13)|266(16)|279(13)|295(1)|308(14)|333(8)|346(3)|364(6)|375(11)|390(10)|404(1)|430(9)|441(1)|460(2)|475(1)|491(13)|505(12)|520(10)|534(8)|546(11)|568(5)|581(5)|593(3)|611(11)|627(6)|642(13)|659(10)|675(2)|687(8)|700(6)|718(14)|731(14)|747(8)|759(11)|777(2)|791(5)|803(3)|827(5)|850(12)|863(11)|880(15)|896(4)|913(17)|928(11)|940(8)|953(6)|965(15)|980(11)|994(4)|1006(11)|1019(7)|1032(14) 0 https://youtu.be/57YupelrUpk YouTube video English 0 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Ruby Odom Cotton for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project by Binnie Myles, at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute on May 15, 1996 at 1:00 p.m. Beginning of interview. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ The homepage of the BCRI 17 Biographical Background and Farm Life We want to talk a little bit about your background. Are you from Birmingham or from Alabama? Cotton describes her childhood in Alabama on her family's farm. African American families ; African American farmers ; Cotton picking ; Rural Alabama African American youth ; Agriculture--Southern States 326 Segregation in Dallas County What do you recall about community and people? Was it an all Black community? Did you interface and interact with other cultures or White people when you were down where you lived? Cotton discusses everyday life on her family's farm in rural Alabama. African Americans--Southern States ; Selma (Ala.) ; Southern States--Rural conditions African Americans--Segregation ; Agriculture--Southern States 805 Life in Birmingham vs. Life in Dallas County So then your family came to Birmingham-- where did you live? Cotton talked about where she lived in Birmingham and how she was a bit sheltered from the realities of segregation as a child. Carver High School ; Evergreen Baptist ; Evergreen Bottom ; Lewis Elementary School African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham 1161 Experiencing Struggle: Older Generation vs. Younger Generation We want to talk about high school a bit and some of the things that you got involved with. Your family was religious, you went to church like you said, Sunday School was a given and going to church. That was the way it was and that you learned so much from that, how to cope with things. Cotton discusses the importance of a child attending church when they are growing up and how it helped her cope with things. Church ; Non-Violent ; Sunday School African Americans--Segregation ; Religion 1366 Being Inspired by Mother's Experiences As a student in high school, when you look back, what did you think or what did you say to your mom and dad when maybe some of the work that they did -- did your mom work outside of the home, by the way? Cotton discusses how seeing her mom clean houses everyday motivated her to get an education so she didn't have to perform such menial tasks for a white person. " ; Over-the-Mountain" ; ; Cleaning houses ; Special bus African Americans--Segregation ; Service for Whites 1779 Participation in the Civil Rights Movement in High School So you are a high school student and you attended the meetings because your parents attended. Now, let's talk about when you were a high school student at Carver. You were arrested on two occasions, what happened? Cotton recalls how she was arrested for protesting in front of Newberry's and how she walked off school grounds and was arrested. 16th Street ; Carver High School ; Lunch Counter Protest ; Newberry's Civil rights movement 1970 Leading a Class Walkout to the Children's Crusade And, of course, after she left, and, then of course, everybody was still a little hesitant because with me, I think they kind of looked up to me since I had already gone before, like I was the one who knew what to do. Cotton tells how she took on a leadership role and led her classmates in a walkout during the Children's Crusade. 16th Street ; Children's Crusade ; Class Walkout Civil rights movement 2113 Working and Experiencing Colorism Back then people paid attention to color and skin complexion. Do you think that you got a good job as a 'salad girl' because of your complexion? Cotton discusses how she experienced colorism in the workplace and the resentment she felt from other Blacks towards her. Eastwood ; Resentment ; Treatment by Whites African Americans--Segregation ; Colorism 2225 Brother's Involvement in the Movement What about your brother, was he involved in the Movement? Cotton tells about her brother's involvement in the Movement. Claude Odom ; School Walkout Children's Crusade ; Civil rights movement 2289 Two Arrests and Jail Time How long were you in jail? I was in there five long days. How was it, were you scared? Cotton recalls her experiences in jail and how she was stuck in there for five days. Juvenile Court ; Violation of Females in Jail Arrest--United States ; Fair Park 2564 Visit to the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute When you look back and talking with your youngsters, and I don't know if you've had an opportunity to visit the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute or not, have you had an opportunity to? Cotton recalls the first time she visited the Institute and how overcome with memories and emotions she was. Birmingham Police Department ; Black History Month Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 2762 Thoughts on the Civil Rights Movement What do you think about the Movement? The Movement then and you growing up and knowing about it and being involved, and " ; The Movement" ; today? Cotton tells her thoughts on the Movement and recalls the moment she was on stage with Dr. King while he was preaching. 16th Street ; Chicago ; Spiegel Martin Luther King, Jr. and the Civil Rights Movement ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 2944 Educational Journey After High School Let's back up a little bit and, then we're going to go back forward. You went to Booker T. Washington Business College? Cotton recalls the places she went to college ad how she got involved in banking. Banking ; Booker T. Washington ; Gastons ; Jefferson State ; Lawson State Education 3012 Discrimination in the Workplace It's been okay. I've been in banking now for 20 years. And, at first it was a slow start for me because they didn't particularly promote women, Black women in banking and that was one of the reasons I left the first bank. Cotton discusses discrimination in the workplace and how several of her white coworkers treated her poorly. Alabama Federal ; Banking ; Central Bank Race discrimination 3428 Need for the Movement in Late 1990s ; Visiting Dr. Shuttlesworth's Church in Cincinnati What about the Movement today, do you think there's a need? I mean, some people say " ; We don't need SCLC, we don't need the NAACP, we have arrived." ; Cotton discusses how there is still a need for the Movement in the late 1990's and her visit to Dr. Shuttlesworth's church in Cincinnati. Cincinnati ; Ku Klux Klan ; NAACP ; SCLC Civil rights movement ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 3658 Preserving Personal Memories of the Movement Two things before we close. During your time of incarceration and being in the Movement as a teenager, were there any mementos, if you will, or anything that you kept or had that you still have? Cotton recalls two items that she had with her in jail but has lost over the years as well as her gratefulness for her experiences during the Movement. Incarceration ; Mementos Martin Luther King, Jr. and the Civil Rights Movement 3862 Conclusion of Interview And, I've enjoyed the opportunity here for sharing this and it's nice meeting you. Interview is ended. Oral History Ruby Odom Cotton discusses her leadership as young lady in the Movement, including the Children's Crusade and two arrests. She went on to become a banker in Birmingham and continues to spread her experience of the Movement. MYLES: This is an interview with Ruby Odom Cotton for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project by Binnie Myles, at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute on May 15, 1996 at 1:00 p.m. How are you Mrs. Cotton? COTTON: I' ; m doing fine, how are you? MYLES: I' ; m good. I' ; m good. We want to talk a little bit about your background. Are you from Birmingham or from Alabama? COTTON: I am from Alabama. I was born in Vredenburgh, Alabama. MYLES: In where? COTTON: In Vredenburgh, in a town below Selma, Alabama. I moved to Birmingham when I was six years old. MYLES: Do you remember anything about Vredenburgh. COTTON: Right. It' ; s spelled V-R-E-D-E-N-B-U-R-G-H. MYLES: Where did they get that name? Do you know? COTTON: Good question. No, I don' ; t know. But there was a family whose last name was Vredenburgh and they named the town after them, but I don' ; t know where it originated from. MYLES: They probably were rich people, that' ; s why they named it after them. Do you remember anything about that town? COTTON: Sure, because even after we moved to Birmingham, my grandparents were still in that area and we would go every summer to visit. It was a very small town, a farming town. MYLES: Were your parents farmers? COTTON: Yes, they were. MYLES: So, did you have different types of animals? COTTON: Right. We mostly had chickens, cows and horses. They grew their own vegetables. And, when we moved to Birmingham my grandparents still had a lot of land so we would go during the summer and help them with the fields and in the garden, help them pick cotton and that kind of thing. MYLES: You' ; ve picked cotton? COTTON: I picked cotton, yes. MYLES: Did you like it? COTTON: It was fun because the cotton you picked they would weigh it and you would get so much money for the amount that you picked. Of course, my problem came in when they stopped at the little store on the way back home. I would go in and spend everything that I earned. So, it wasn' ; t very profitable for me because I was so young. But, for my family, it was. And, I enjoyed it. MYLES: Do you have brothers and sisters? COTTON: Yes. I have four brothers. My sister died in ' ; 66. I have two brothers that' ; s living here and the other is in Chicago. MYLES: When you were little and you talked about the cotton and you had chickens and cows, did your chickens lay eggs? COTTON: Sure. MYLES: Did you go out there and get the eggs? COTTON: That was one of the chores that was for me every morning. I had to go out and feed the chickens in the chicken coop and collect the eggs and bring them in the house. We had to do that before we went to school. MYLES: You must have gotten up real early? COTTON: Oh, yes, very early. MYLES: What time did you get up? COTTON: 4:00 o' ; clock, 5:00 o' ; clock, something like that in the mornings. Not only was that my chore, but we had other things to do before we left for school. There were so many chores you did in the morning and so many you did in the afternoon. MYLES: And you were just a little girl? COTTON: Exactly. They start you at an early age. MYLES: Did you milk cows, too? COTTON: Well, I didn' ; t do that, but I watched my parents and my brothers when they milked the cows. MYLES: Did you drink the milk? COTTON: Sure, we drank the milk and we churned and made butter. It' ; s really nice to have the homemade butter. It' ; s so much different than what you buy in the store now. MYLES: How was the taste different? COTTON: It' ; s not as much sweetness in it. It' ; s more of a pure taste. MYLES: What about the milk? COTTON: The milk, then we had milk that came from the cows and also milk that came from the goat. I didn' ; t particularly like the goat milk, but I did drink the milk from the cows because you had the regular, what we called sweet milk, and, then you had buttermilk. MYLES: How did you make the buttermilk? COTTON: Now, that I can hardly remember. I remember them putting it in a churn when they got ready to make the butter and I think the longer you churn it with your hand, up and down, the longer you go, at the end is when you get the butter. I think middle ways through the process they might stop it and that would make it thick and you would have buttermilk from it. MYLES: Well, what about the goat milk? How did that taste? COTTON: To me, I never did really like the goat milk. Maybe because to me there was a little odor from the goats. So, you automatically assume that the milk is going to be that way. So, I kind of shied away from it, but it is my understanding that it is very tasty. MYLES: And you remember that and you' ; re still such a young lady. COTTON: Well, not too young. I' ; ll celebrate a birthday tomorrow. I' ; ll be 48 years old. But, yes, I guess because we kept going down during the summer, even as a teenager so a lot of that I remember as a child I continued to do as a teenager. MYLES: What do you recall about community and people? Was it an all-Black community? Did you interface and interact with other cultures or White people when you were down where you lived? COTTON: No. Basically the area that we lived in was an all-Black area. You had a Black area ; you had a White area. The houses were quite a distance apart, so it wasn' ; t like you had an immediate neighbor. You didn' ; t have any phones or anything like that, so when you needed to contact somebody you would either blow the horn on the car, if you had a car, or if someone was passing by on a wagon, you would tell them and the next house they would get to and they would tell them. It kind of traveled that way. Or, sometimes in the afternoon, if you needed something you would holler to the next house and that house would holler to the next house. Eventually you would get the person you needed and that' ; s how they contacted each other. Usually, if it was an emergency or something, if you needed a doctor -- we didn' ; t have doctors that we could go to. MYLES: " ; We" ; meaning Black people? COTTON: Black people. So, you had a lot of home remedies that our grandparents gave. Now, my grandmother was a midwife, so she had a lot of knowledge on medical things that when we got the little ailments then a lot of things that she knew she would pass on to us to help us out. But, the closest hospital was in Selma, Alabama and it was quite a distance. So, you didn' ; t go to a hospital unless it was a life and death situation. MYLES: You mentioned the wagons going by. Were these wagons with horses? COTTON: Right. That' ; s how we got back and forth to the churches. And, for those families who didn' ; t have a wagon, what you would do is you would get dressed in the mornings and you would head out for church and the church was miles away. But, as you walked, someone would come along with a wagon and they would let you ride in the wagon and take you on to church. MYLES: You talked about talking to people next door, that you just hollered out just like, " ; Hey, Miss Mary." ; What did you do? COTTON: Right. The houses were so far apart, you just had to holler as loud as you possibly could and mostly you would use somebody who had a heavy voice, like my brothers or my father or something like that, if they were available. And, then they would keep hollering until eventually when they think that person hears them, they would holler back and, then once they knew that they had that person' ; s attention, then they would tell them what they want. Because sometimes if you holler, the person might be in the house and they don' ; t hear you. So, you keep calling the name like, " ; Mary, Mary." ; And, eventually Mary will answer. Then you would tell her what you want. Of course, if you didn' ; t want Mary, if you wanted the person who lived down the road from Mary, then Mary would keep hollering to them until they get the message and that' ; s how you sent your messages back and forth. And, then a lot of times, sometimes you see in the African movies you see where they played the drums and made sounds. Well, they had these old tin tubs and sometimes if you hollered and couldn' ; t get anyone' ; s attention, you beat on the tub. And, then that would get their attention. If they hear you, then they would beat back and, then you holler and tell them what you want. But, I know it sounds kind of wild now, but back then if you didn' ; t have telephones, if you didn' ; t have cars to drive over to that person' ; s house, and it' ; s not like the neighborhoods today where you have neighbors immediately in the next block or something like that. It was miles before you would see a house. And, sometimes in the summer, with the trees out, you couldn' ; t even see the house. In the wintertime, when the trees were not in bloom, you could sometimes see the top of the house and, then the voice would carry a little better. MYLES: So that was a way of life for you and your family, but there was a sense of community? COTTON: Back then I think that as far as caring, people were closer to each other. They cared more for each other. If you were in need or needed something, people were willing to come to your aid. They do that now, but I think it was more sincere back then. If you got burned out, for instance, everyone would just band together. Before you know it they have built your house back. They' ; ve helped you replace all your belongings. If someone got ill, all the neighbors was there to help you to care for that person. And, the children, my parents didn' ; t have to worry about us getting in trouble or anything because everybody looked out for each other. Even after we came to Birmingham, your neighbors looked out for you. My parents worked. They didn' ; t have to worry about a babysitter for us, because our neighbors were babysitters. MYLES: We' ; re going to talk about Birmingham a little bit in just a moment. Let me ask you this, when you lived there in Dallas County, did you ever see any White people and, if so, what kind of interaction did your family have with them that you can remember? COTTON: The only time that I really saw the White people was when you go to what you call the commissary. The commissary was the store there that you would go and get your goods that you needed. In the commissary it had everything, some groceries and feed and everything that you would need. So you would go to that part of the little town and you would see a few White people there, but you really didn' ; t see that many, because like policemen, you only had maybe one person who controlled the whole area and you had some plants there where the foremen were White, but with me being so small I never did really have to come in contact with them. I' ; ve heard stories that my father told about working in the mill and how he was treated by the Whites. MYLES: What are some of the things that you recall your dad saying? COTTON: Well, it' ; s kind of like the way it is now with the Blacks. They got all the hard work and they were paid less. The breaks and stuff they should have gotten, they couldn' ; t get. The hours was unreal. If something happened in the mill and their production wasn' ; t up to par, they would make the Blacks stay and do whatever the quota was for the day. But, then they would let the White people go home. Things like that. And sometime the hours. Although he would work these long hours, the pay didn' ; t justify it. It wasn' ; t like he was getting paid so much per hour. They gave you so much per day. But, in that day it might run anywhere from 8 hours to 15 hours and you get the same amount of money. And, that sometimes back then there weren' ; t anything like promotions -- if you do a good job you could move up. It wasn' ; t anything like that. And, as far as eating, they had their little area that they had to eat in and White people had their little area. The Whites had nice bathrooms and they, of course, had little out houses that they had to go through. And, most of the area then all they used was out houses anyway, but for some reason, the Whites had gotten bathroom facilities to bring in for them. So, little things like that. It was many years later before all that changed. Of course, when it did change, we had already moved away. MYLES: So, even then for you as a child remembering back, and by this time it was close to 1948, I mean that' ; s when you lived there and you moved to Birmingham. But, your parents experienced discrimination, that is your father, even then. COTTON: Oh yes. MYLES: So, then your family came to Birmingham -- where did you live? COTTON: In Birmingham we moved on the north side on 22nd Avenue North. It was known as Evergreen Bottom. MYLES: Do you know why it was called " ; Evergreen Bottom?" ; Was it always green over there or something? COTTON: Well, no there was a church. The church there, when they brought it to that side of town, they named it Evergreen Baptist Church. And, because of that they named the neighborhood Evergreen. But, as kids we called it " ; The Bottom." ; MYLES: Do you know why the kids called it " ; The Bottom?" ; COTTON: I think kind of because the way it' ; s set. It was kind of like part of Evergreen was a little slope, a little hill that went down, and because of that we started calling it the bottom. MYLES: What was that neighborhood like for you? What do you remember? How different was it from where you came from Dallas County? COTTON: Well, for one thing, I was amazed because in Dallas County with the houses being so far apart and, then coming to Birmingham where everything was so close together, all the houses and apartments, and, that even the people, the Black people were close, not like Dallas County, but they were caring people. The block up from me were White people. White people lived in that area and it' ; s kind of interesting that we played with the White children that were in the next block. And, it wasn' ; t until I got much older that I really realized about racism, because we went to an all Black school. We walked to school. We didn' ; t have to worry about a bus. I went to Lewis Elementary School, so we walked there. There were no Whites. And, of course, when I started high school, I went to Carver High School and it was all Black, so it wasn' ; t until then that I realized what the problem was because my parents kind of kept me isolated. I didn' ; t go to town and see all that was going on. MYLES: So, when you were smaller and you played with your friends that were White in the neighborhood, did you ever wonder why they didn' ; t go to your school? Or do you ever remember your parents saying anything? COTTON: At the time, no we didn' ; t. We knew that we were zoned. You went to the school that you were zoned in. And, in our minds the ones that lived in the next block was in a different zone than we were -- the reason they didn' ; t go to our school. Of course, I realize that wasn' ; t true, but at the time, that' ; s what you thought. You didn' ; t think anything about it. MYLES: What about police when you moved to Evergreen Bottom and other White people, did anything ever happen or were there any police or the Klan or anything like that ever in your neighborhood? COTTON: No, not that I can remember. I just know that sometimes when the cars would drive through that sometime the White police officers would say something harsh or smart to us if we were playing in the street. Back then that was the only area we had to play. We didn' ; t have parks or anything, especially during Christmas time. We would get in the street and skate and stuff like that. Every now and then one would come by and maybe call us names or something of that nature. But, I never experienced seeing them beat up anyone, not in the neighborhood. MYLES: You said sometimes they would come by in the car. What were some of the things they would say to you kids? COTTON: Well, you know they would always use the ' ; n' ; word, as you put it. " ; Get out of the street." ; MYLES: They would say, " ; Get out of the street, Nigger" ; or something like that? COTTON: Right. Right. Back then you were Nigger anyway. If they just pass by and you' ; re not doing anything, if you' ; re just standing on a corner, just talking with your friends, they might come by and just say, " ; Nigger, what are you doing? or " ; Nigger, get off the street." ; Or something of that nature. We would leave and go in the house until we think they' ; re gone and, then we would go back out. MYLES: I imagine there were boys and girls playing together? COTTON: Right. MYLES: Did your parents ever say anything to any of you like, " ; Don' ; t sass them. Don' ; t say anything back" ; ? Do you ever recall saying anything to your parents, " ; Why do they call us this? Why do they do that, we didn' ; t do anything?" ; COTTON: Well, yes. Our parents always cautioned us to not say anything back because they realized that would only intimidate them and make them do maybe some harm to us. They always taught us to just walk away. But, yes, as I grew older then they began to sit down and tell me about how things were. If not my parents, my older brothers. We were always taught to not to provoke anything, even if something happened to you. If someone hit you, you turn around and walk away. So, we knew at an early age if they said something ugly that we didn' ; t like, you don' ; t say anything back. You just accepted that and went on your way. And, of course it wasn' ; t a good feeling, but, then you realized they' ; re the ones who had the guns and they' ; re the ones who had the power, and if you tried to provoke them, then you knew what would happen. That, in the end you would be the one who was getting hurt. And, then, at an early age I realized there was a better way to accomplish something than fighting or being ugly. My family was very religious. MYLES: Where did you go to church? COTTON: We went to Evergreen Baptist. I was raised in that church, so it was a given, you always got up and went to Sunday School and church every Sunday. And, in church there was a lot of training for us that kind of help us cope with the pressures of everyday life. MYLES: We want to talk about high school a bit and some of the things that you got involved with. Your family was religious, you went to church like you said, Sunday School was a given and going to church. That was the way it was and that you learned so much from that, how to cope with things. When you look then as a teenager, and you look at now, what do you see as some of the concerns relative to teens? Do you think they' ; re not in the church enough, or families are not together enough? COTTON: I think that today the parents let the child make a choice on whether or not they want to attend church. When I was growing up, we didn' ; t have a choice, you go and that' ; s it. And, I think now, as parents, we don' ; t insist that our children attend church every Sunday. It' ; s kind of like you get them up on Sunday morning, " ; Do you want to go to church?" ; If they say yes, they go. If they say no, " ; Okay, you stay home." ; And I think that because of that a lot of our children is not getting the training that they should get. That the church is willing to offer them. And, I think a lot of the problem with the youth is the parent, and I can say that because I' ; m a parent myself. I know it' ; s hard to raise children, but, then I try to remember to raise my children the way my parents raised me. I made them go to church and I always said that as children they would be in church. As they become adults, if they don' ; t want to go, that' ; s their choice. But, now since they are adults, they still like church and it has motivated them, and I think that' ; s why their life is better today. MYLES: When you look at your children and being a mom, I would imagine that you shared with them some of the things that you said to me about picking cotton and the cows and that. What do they say? And, do they really believe it, especially perhaps if they see one of the old movies and say that, " ; Man, I wouldn' ; t do that, or Mom, you didn' ; t really do that. That happened in the olden days or something." ; What did they say? COTTON: It' ; s unbelievable to them. They cannot in their wildest dream imagine some of the things that I' ; ve talked to them about that happened to me as a child and in the 60s as a teenager. They can' ; t imagine us riding in the back of the bus. They can' ; t imagine us paying our money at the front door but walking in the back to get on. And all Blacks sat in the back of the bus and, if it got full, you had to get up and give the White person your seat. And, they can' ; t understand if you paid the same amount of money as a White person, why did you have to get up? Why didn' ; t you have a choice when you got on the bus? They can' ; t imagine going into a department store buying an item of clothes and needing to try it on and you can' ; t try it on because of the color of your skin. And, having water fountains saying ' ; Colored' ; and ' ; White' ; and you wouldn' ; t dare use the one that says ' ; White' ; . In their wildest dream they don' ; t think that ever happen. How could we allow it to happen? How could you just sit back and let them do you that way? Because the younger generation now, I don' ; t think they' ; re as non-violent as we were coming up. They' ; re willing to fight back. They' ; re not willing to just turn the other cheek the way we did. MYLES: When you talk about that, let me interrupt you for just a moment. As a student in high school, when you look back, what did you think or what did you say to your mom and dad when maybe some of the work that they did -- did your mom work outside of the home, by the way? COTTON: Yes, she did. MYLES: What kind of work did your mom do? COTTON: My mother worked " ; over-the-mountain." ; She worked in White people' ; s homes, cleaning their homes. MYLES: Did she work for any particular family that you can recall? COTTON: Yes, she worked, up until recently with a doctor by the name of Spink, Dr. Spink. She worked for them for years. And, my mother, even when she was sick and couldn' ; t go to work, she would send me in her place to go and clean house. MYLES: So, you know what it was like? COTTON: Oh, yes. MYLES: Do you remember anything that your mom said that you may have said, " ; Mom, why do you do this? You don' ; t have to go over there? Can' ; t you find something else?" ; And, also, share with us how that was when you said, " ; Oh, yes." ; You could remember. Talk about your day working when your mom was sick. COTTON: Well, actually I couldn' ; t understand as a child my mother getting up every single morning and she would go to work feeling sick, couldn' ; t hardly make it. And the only time she really stayed home was when she really just couldn' ; t go anymore because my mother suffered with asthma real bad. But, I used to question why did she go and clean up other people' ; s houses. Why couldn' ; t she work in a department store or why couldn' ; t she work at a bank or something of that nature. Of course, back then you didn' ; t find any Blacks working in a bank or even a department store. So, she would just sit down and explain to us that, " ; They' ; re not ready yet." ; I couldn' ; t understand what she meant when she said, " ; They' ; re not ready." ; But, she knew that she didn' ; t have the training and she felt that was a handicap for her and the only thing she knew how to do was to clean houses. But, she always motivated us that she wanted better for us. " ; This is what I have to do to take care of you, but I want you to do better for yourself." ; But, there were times when she just could not go to work to keep from calling in and telling the person she couldn' ; t come, because back then you didn' ; t have sick days. If you didn' ; t go to work, you didn' ; t get paid and we needed the money. MYLES: How much did she get paid, do you remember? COTTON: No, I don' ; t. But, it wasn' ; t very much. It was very little. But, I would go in her place and I would clean houses and I would take care of the little White kids until their parents came home. And, I think during that time is when I really realized how the situation was on the bus because up until that point I didn' ; t ride the bus. We had specials going to school. MYLES: What' ; s a special? COTTON: A special is a bus just for the school kids to take you to your school. And, of course, we were all Black, so all Blacks were on the bus, so I never really did ride the public bus until I got into high school and started doing volunteer work at the Red Cross and, then going to work in my mom' ; s place. MYLES: What was the day like when you went over there to clean for your mom? Did you say, " ; Man, oh man, I' ; m going to stay in school because I don' ; t want to do this." ; COTTON: Exactly. That really motivated me to go on and get my education because it' ; s one thing having to clean your own house, but it' ; s something else to go and clean someone' ; s else, because they just leave everything there because they know they got somebody coming in. So, you find yourself not only mopping floors and washing windows, but cleaning people' ; s bathrooms and sometimes even moping the floor they don' ; t want you to use a mop, they want you to get on your knees and scrub and that kind of thing. And, then sometimes you figure " ; Well, they' ; re not here, so they don' ; t know how you clean it." ; But, some of the women didn' ; t work and they were there, and they would watch you. And, then if they had to go shopping or something like that, you had to keep the kids while they were gone, plus get through with your chores. And, then usually you had a deadline to finish. It wasn' ; t like you could go in and say, " ; Okay, I' ; m going to work 8 to 5." ; Usually they give you a time. They tell you, " ; I want you to do this, this and this and I want you to be through at this time." ; So, then you couldn' ; t just goof off. But, it was because of that that motivated me to go on and make something better for myself. MYLES: Did this make you angry because you were there, and you did what your mom had to do? Not angry with your mom, but the situation, so that when you came home you could appreciate your mother even more, not that you didn' ; t, but the fact that she had to do this, and this is so unfair? COTTON: In a sense. There was a little anger there, but the family that she worked for the most, the Spinks, they were very nice. They were a very nice family and a caring family so that didn' ; t make it so hard. Myself, as a child, some of the things they expected my mom to do, they really didn' ; t put it on me, but prior to her working for this family, the other families were not as nice as they were, so they expected everything done. They didn' ; t care whether or not you were a child. But, I think because of her connecting with the Spinks, although in a sense I wanted more for my mother, but, it wasn' ; t as bad as some of the other houses could have been. MYLES: So, you experienced that and, then you experienced seeing that green board on that bus that said, ' ; Colored to the back' ; and you had worked all day and you were tired. You get on the bus and, then what happen? COTTON: You get on the bus, you sit there, going to relax until you get to downtown to change again. And, you' ; re there minding your own business and all of a sudden the bus fills up and you' ; re asked to get up. And, of course back then, when you' ; re young you don' ; t question why, you just get up. You get up and, then you have to stand until you get to town to change another bus. And, if you' ; re lucky, when you change that bus, you can sit down. It depends on what time you get in town because you have all these housewives going home and if the bus is full, you stand up until you get to your destination. It was just one of those things. As I grew older, I questioned it and I knew it wasn' ; t right. And, at that point, I had become interested in the Movement and I knew we had to do something about it. MYLES: So, you are a high school student and you attended the meetings because your parents attended. Now, let' ; s talk about when you were a high school student at Carver. You were arrested on two occasions, what happened? COTTON: The very first time I was arrested I was marching in front of Newberry' ; s because we were protesting the fact that we couldn' ; t sit at the lunch counter. And, we managed to get out of the car, maybe about five minutes and, then we were arrested. So we really didn' ; t get a chance to protest long. The second time I went was when all of us walked off the school ground. That was to me very interesting because my father had sat me down the night before, me and my brother and explained to us that his job had told him that if he participated, or if his family participated in the Movement, that he would be fired. MYLES: Where did your dad work? COTTON: He worked for a company called Tractor and Trailer Company. But, my father never did tell me don' ; t you march. So, at that point I had a decision to make whether or not I was going to or whether or not I was not. I definitely didn' ; t want my father to lose his job. But, the more I thought about it, I realized that something better would come later even if he did, that somehow we would make it. So, the next day I decided that I had to do it. If not for me, if I didn' ; t see any benefits from it or my father or my mother, that somebody would later on in the years. So, I was among the first to walk out and it was really a great feeling. Once we started walking and I guess we got about a couple of blocks from school, and we looked back and saw all the children coming behind us. Because at first there was a little hesitation. And, as we started marching from Carver High School then we had cars and parents to come pick us up and, then take us on to 16th Street because they were afraid that the police would come and get us and arrest us before we got downtown. MYLES: Now, you said that you left school. Did the principal say it was alright, or the teachers? Did they just kind of say, " ; Well, we can' ; t get involved, because we' ; ll lose our jobs, so we' ; ll just turn our heads?" ; How did that happen? COTTON: Well, the class that I was in, my teacher at the given time (Inaudible) gave us a time to walk off the school. She stood up and said, " ; I have to be excused for a few minutes." ; And, when I looked at my watch I realized why she was excusing herself, because, right, as a teacher she could not say, " ; Okay, students it' ; s time now, you all go on and walk off the school." ; But, when she excused herself then we knew she was giving us permission to leave. MYLES: Do you remember the teacher' ; s name? COTTON: Her name was Ms. Bracy. I was in her English class. MYLES: What was her first name? COTTON: I don' ; t remember her first name. MYLES: That took a lot of courage for Mrs. Bracy to do that? COTTON: It did. And, of course, after she left, and, then of course, everybody was still a little hesitant because with me, I think they kind of looked up to me since I had already gone before, like I was the one who knew what to do. And, then I realized at that point that I had to take a leadership role, and, then once I started walking out and the other classes, for some reason on that day all the doors were opened. So, as we walked down the hallway, the students saw us going by and, then they walked out and just kept going. Before you knew it the crowd just multiplied. Like I said, as we walked off the school ground and got a couple of blocks, then cars picked us up and took us on to 16th Street. But with me, during that time they had the dogs and the fire hoses and all that. Luckily I was already in jail when that happened, so I didn' ; t get the dogs, nor the fire hoses. MYLES: But, do you think, when you look back that part of the reason that you were such a go- getter and took a leadership role, along with your parents being involved with that, you got a little taste when you went ' ; over-the-mountain' ; to work for your mom one day, and, then having to stand up on that bus and just thinking through all of this and saying " ; Un- un, I' ; m going to do something." ; Do you think that also had something to do with you becoming involved? COTTON: I think so, because the times that I had to go work in my mom' ; s place, that was one thing that motivated me that I needed to do better. Not only that, but as children, we had to work side jobs once we got old enough to get out and ride the bus by ourselves. So, I started out working in private homes myself. On Saturdays, when I' ; m out of school, and, then I did get a job in a restaurant when I was maybe in the 9th or 10th grade. And, back then they were paying 70 cents an hour. You took your little 70 cents and back then we had to buy our own books and that kind of thing. So anything we could do to help our parents out. But, then when you think about it 70 cents an hour, but you did it. MYLES: What did you do at the restaurant? COTTON: I was what they called a " ; salad girl" ; , I made salads. It was a Chinese restaurant that was over in the Eastwood area. MYLES: Back then people paid attention to color and skin complexion. Do you think that you got a good job as a ' ; salad girl' ; because of your complexion? COTTON: I think so. It' ; s sad to say that. MYLES: But you were fair, you were light-skinned and they didn' ; t mind people seeing you, but maybe the others who were darker-skinned, and that' ; s no reflection on you or them, but that' ; s the way the times were. COTTON: That' ; s true. And, then, even as a child I resented my skin color. I used to eat chocolate and drink Black coffee because I wanted to get darker. MYLES: Did you think that the coffee would make you Black? COTTON: Right. For some reason that black coffee would make me Black and the chocolate would make me Black. But the chocolate only broke me out. MYLES: Was it because you wanted people to like you because some of them didn' ; t. They blamed you for being the color that you were?COTTON: Well, you know it' ; s kind of interesting because in a sense the Whites treated you a little better because of your skin color, not a whole lot, but a little better than the normal, like my brothers for instance because my brothers were darker than I was. But, then as a Black race I got a lot of resentment from them because of my color. So, I was taking it from both sides. And, when I got older I was able to deal with it, but as a child it' ; s hard to deal with it when you' ; re getting it from both sides. Your own race and also from the other side. The Whites treated me a little better, but I didn' ; t want them to. I wanted my whole race to be treated better, not myself. MYLES: What about your brother, was he involved in the Movement? COTTON: He was. Well, he didn' ; t go to as many meetings. I got involved in the Movement through my uncle Claude Odom, who was very active in the Movement. And, because of that I went to meetings with him. My brother never did attend any meetings and I was really surprised when he walked off the school grounds. But, when I got to jail that day, I called home with the intention of talking to my brother to tell my brother to tell my parents that I was in jail. But, when I called home my mother answered the phone and I asked to speak to my brother, Willie. And, then she says, " ; Well, he' ; s in jail. Haven' ; t you seen him?" ; And, then I realized that he had gone to jail too and that she knew. She said that she knew the night before that I was going and I asked her how my father was and she said that he' ; s fine, he' ; s just worried about you. And I assured them that I would be fine. But, in my mind I' ; m thinking that I would be in there a couple of days. MYLES: How long were you in jail? COTTON: I was in there five long days. MYLES: How was it, were you scared? COTTON: Well, see the first time I went, I went to juvenile -- to juvenile court because of my age. So, they had some small children there. We played with the children and it was fine. The second time I went they took us to juvenile just to get us processed. We left juvenile and went to, I don' ; t know if it was city jail or county jail. We went to one of the jails. And, then from there to Fair Park where they housed all of us. And, it wasn' ; t as fun as the first time because as the days went by I knew my parents could not get me out. I knew that from the get-go. But, I thought for a while that maybe the Movement don' ; t know I' ; m in here because I was among the last that they got out. And, then in my mind I' ; m thinking, " ; Well, I' ; ve gone before so they think I' ; m strong enough to stay and handle it." ; So, toward the fifth day though I was getting a little worried. MYLES: What was the treatment and the food like? COTTON: It wasn' ; t good. I think maybe the first day I didn' ; t eat anything. And, then towards the second day, you know we all got together and talked about it and realized that we had to eat something because we had to stay strong. We couldn' ; t get ill in there, but it wasn' ; t the best of food, but it was okay. MYLES: But that did take a lot of courage on your part to take that stand. When you look back now and you talk to your youngsters and tell them about it, do they say " ; Really, mom" ; or " ; You didn' ; t really do that." ; COTTON: Right. It' ; s hard for them to believe. My younger son who is 16 years old now. I was talking about when I went to the jail house and there were so many of us packed into this jail cell. And, for some reason I was the last one to go in. And, they started closing the door before I could get in and the door was beginning to squeeze me so I started hollering and some of the other women and girls started hollering and finally they opened the door so I could get in. But, he asked me, " ; Well, mom didn' ; t you get hurt?" ; And I said, " ; Well, yes, I was sore." ; He said, " ; Did they take you to the doctor?" ; I said, " ; No, they didn' ; t take me to the doctor." ; He said, " ; Well, did you tell them?" ; I said, " ; Well, no, because I didn' ; t want them to separate me from the other people. I didn' ; t know what they were going to do to me. So, yes, I was sore a few days, but then you just dealt with it." ; But other than that, that was the only bad experience I had. It was just at the fair grounds they had so many beds set up there that you had a lot of company and you got a chance to talk about a lot of things and kind of reminisce on what you are going to do with your life and why and that kind of thing. But, it was an experience and I realize even then at that age, I still say, and I heard a woman say this, that it may not benefit me, but it might benefit my children and my grandchildren and I think that was the kind of motivation that I had. MYLES: So now you' ; ve been to jail, you' ; ve realized what this was all about and you' ; ve made your contribution in more ways than one, but did you get scared at all? Did you think, " ; Well, my goodness." ; And, looking at all the different people that were in jail with you and that many of us have read and we' ; ve been told about women being violated in jail, were you afraid? Especially, here' ; s this young girl, light skinned, attractive, " ; I' ; m in this jail, are they going to bother me? Is somebody going to take me out and do something to me? Were you afraid of that? COTTON: Well, actually we got into a group. I was with my next-door neighbor and my cousin. We had gotten together and talked and decided that we wouldn' ; t go anywhere by ourselves. If we went to the bathroom, we went as a group. When it was time to take a shower, we made sure we were in there together, because yes, there were rumors and there were instances where there was fighting, and girls were messing with the other girls. But, it worked out pretty good for us because we stayed together and kind of got a plan together and that kind of helped us. MYLES: When you look back and talking with your youngsters, and I don' ; t know if you' ; ve had an opportunity to visit the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute or not, have you had an opportunity to? COTTON: Yes, I have. MYLES: Have you brought your children and looked at it and walked them through and have they looked at it and made comments? Did you have any flashbacks to be so overcome with " ; Here I am today and that happened then, look where we' ; ve come." ; It must be really hard sometimes. COTTON: It is, and when I came, the first time I came, I came alone and, as I walked through and looked at the different exhibits I was really amazed and got teary eyed because a lot of it brought back a lot of memories. And, I guess through the years you kind of forget some of the bad things that happened, but it kind of brought back some of the rough moments that were there. And, then, I did bring my children because I wanted them to see and they had a lot of questions, even after talking to them, because I wanted them to know the story. I want them to pass it on to their children and their grandchildren. So, when they came and looked at the exhibit I think it really, really touched home with them. It' ; s like when I was telling them, it' ; s like a story, she' ; s just saying this. But, I think at that point they realized this really happened. MYLES: And, then, they said, " ; Well, mom that was really true because that' ; s the real sign and the real bus and whatever, whatever?" ; COTTON: Right. And, when they were in school, my two oldest boys, now they' ; re out of high school. But, when they were in high school and they were talking about, especially during February, Black History Month, when they talked about the Civil Rights, they would also get in the conversation, " ; Because my mother did this. My mother was there." ; When they read some of the stuff in the history books, it comes to them because of stuff that I' ; ve told them about it. But, I think because of that, it' ; s made them better children because when I was marching and, when I was participating in the Movement, I didn' ; t in my wildest dream think that I would have children, and, then they would benefit from some of the things that I went through. Like my oldest son, for instance is on the Birmingham Police Department. And, back then I never would have thought any of my children, or even Blacks would even be on the police department. And, then, my middle son, he' ; s with the FBI and, they, because of that, they' ; re motivated to help their race to kind of prosper and they reach back and try to help the younger generation and try to let them know that fighting and gangs and drugs is not what it' ; s all about. They try to teach them to have a little compassion and try to unite themselves to make the world better. So, even with that, and they know that because of what I went through is the reason they are where they are today. And, sometimes in sitting down talking to them, and they acknowledge that, it kind of brings tears to my eyes, because in a sense it does. What I did and what a million other people did is to benefit a lot of the people today. MYLES: What do you think about the Movement? The Movement then and you growing up and knowing about it and being involved, and " ; The Movement" ; today? COTTON: Back then I was very motivated with the Movement and especially with Dr. King. Whenever he opened his mouth to say anything it was just in awe to me. And one of my fondest memories is as a child, I went to 16th Street and Dr. King was there, and the church was packed. MYLES: What did you think? COTTON: People were everywhere. And, somehow, when I got there it was late so I had to stand in the aisle way. And as people came in we had to keep going down the aisle way and I ended up almost to the very front of the church. And they had this Rabbi on stage. And, this Rabbi begged for me to come on stage to sit with him. And, I was just dumbfounded because Dr. King was on the stage. Although he was on the other end, still I' ; m on stage with Dr. King. MYLES: Do you remember what age you were then? COTTON: I was about 14 or 15. And, that in itself was just -- oh, that memory, I would never forget. Today I' ; m sad to say that I' ; m not as active in the Movement as I was back then. I can' ; t even remember the last time I' ; ve gone to a meeting. But, I think that the ones that are participating in it I still think they' ; re doing a good job. MYLES: When you look at strides and you are a part of history because of the things that you did as a child and your profession, now you' ; re in banking, did you ever in your wildest dreams think that you, this African-American female would be in the position that you are now? COTTON: Never, in my wildest dream. Even as I finished high school, I really went to school to be a dental nurse and I left here, went to Chicago. I stayed there working at Spiegel as a proofreader. I never thought I would have gotten that job either. But, a proofreader at Spiegel during the day and, at night I would go to school. After I had gone for a while I realized that wasn' ; t for me, so I dropped out. I came back to Birmingham, but still I didn' ; t think that I would go in banking, because I started out working in department stores as a cashier and that kind of thing. What happened was, my husband was in school at Miles College and they had a recruiter saying they needed more females in banking. They were trying to get the college students to go out and apply. My husband came home and told me about it. I went and they hired me. MYLES: Let' ; s back up a little bit and, then we' ; re going to go back forward. You went to Booker T. Washington Business College? COTTON: Briefly. MYLES: But you did attend? COTTON: I did attend. MYLES: So that, in itself that was a time when a lot of Black women really could not go to school and because of the Gastons you had an opportunity even though it was a brief time? COTTON: Right. Exactly. And, back then my parents could not afford to send me to college so what I did after high school that summer, I worked and earned enough money for my first tuition. I knew that in order to continue I had to work and, then go to school. But, I did go there briefly before I left going to Chicago. MYLES: How was that for you? COTTON: It was an experience. I enjoyed the time that I was there. MYLES: So now you went back to school. You went to Lawson State and UAB? COTTON: I went to Lawson State and Jefferson State. MYLES: Oh, Jeff State, I' ; m sorry. COTTON: Right. MYLES: And, you got involved in banking? COTTON: Right. MYLES: How has it been for you? COTTON: It' ; s been okay. I' ; ve been in banking now for 20 years. And, at first it was a slow start for me because they didn' ; t particularly promote women, Black women in banking and that was one of the reasons I left the first bank. I had been there ten years and whenever I tried to advance, I was told I was either overqualified or under qualified. I saw others that did make it, of course, they weren' ; t Black, they were White. It' ; s kind of interesting that myself as a Black person would always train the White people that come in on these different jobs, but yet I wasn' ; t qualified to work them. MYLES: How did that make you feel and the ones that got the positions that you may have been interested in, what kind of educational background or what were there qualifications, versus yours? COTTON: Well, they mostly was young girls right out of high school. And, there were occasions when they hadn' ; t even finished high school and I guess that' ; s what made it so awful and bad because you knew you had the qualifications and you knew that all you needed was someone to give you a chance and that you could do the job, but because of that I kept telling myself I can do better, I' ; m going to leave. But, then you never really take the time to go other places, so I was there one day, just minding my own business, the phone rung and it was somebody that I' ; d worked for at Central Bank when I first started there. They had left the company. He knew of this bank, at the time it was Alabama Federal that needed a savings manager and he said he thought about me because he remembered my attitude and how willing I was to work. So, he asked me to go and put in an application and I did, and they hired me the same day. And, of course I went over and still there was resentment there because I was the first Black manager for that particular bank, and naturally a lot of the Whites that was there felt like they should have gotten the job. And, me being Black I could not handle the responsibilities. MYLES: So they thought? COTTON: So they thought. So, it was a challenge because they were to train me and I know that and I knew then that they weren' ; t going to show me everything there was to know about the job. MYLES: How did that make you feel? COTTON: It wasn' ; t a good feeling because you go there and you know you have to supervise these people, but they are not willing to listen to what you have to say or they don' ; t want your supervision. So, for me I had to stay there a lot of long hours, reading manuals and learning things that I knew they weren' ; t going to teach me. But, because of that, I think it made me a better person and a better manager because a lot of the stuff I' ; ve learned. And, then as a reward, they did give me a plaque for being the best supervisor for that company. And, also my department had an award for the best department. MYLES: So, did that kind of turn them around? COTTON: It did. After they got to know me and they knew that I was a fair person, knew that the company didn' ; t hire me just because I was Black. A lot of them felt like they had to get a Black person in there so they just brought me, and I couldn' ; t do the job. I was determined to prove them wrong, but in the end they became one of the best employees. MYLES: Did any of them ever come back and say, " ; Well, you know I thought this and I thought that, and I' ; m sorry." ; COTTON: I did. MYLES: Did they do that? COTTON: I did. I had a few to come to me and apologize for misjudging me, for not giving me the benefit of the doubt, that a lot of the resentment and feeling they had was from what they were taught by their parents and that once they got to know me, they realized that their parents were wrong. They asked me to forgive them and it was interesting because I really didn' ; t have any ill feelings toward them. You know, I' ; m being brought up in the church, I just prayed for them and asked the Lord to take away the ill feelings and give me the strength to endure to do the job, and He did. MYLES: So, it' ; s been rewarding for you now with where you are in the banking industry. When you look at work across the board, when you look at youngsters, some who are very eager to move up and don' ; t want to start at entry level and wherever the job is, what would you say to them? COTTON: Well, it' ; s kind of interesting because you have a lot of that happening. When I have someone coming in, for instance, to fill out an application or apply for a job that' ; s in my area, immediately they want to start from the top. I have to sit down and tell them that you got to start somewhere, but it' ; s not at the top. You know, you' ; re going to have to work your way up there, and, then, to those who are already there, I try to sit down with them and talk to them and try to motivate them that you don' ; t just learn your job, learn somebody else' ; s job. When you finish with what you' ; re doing, sit with somebody else, look over somebody else' ; s shoulder, because it would benefit you in the long run. And, it got so that even in the area that I supervise, I worked all the jobs, so I knew how long it took to do this, this and this. So, you couldn' ; t just sit there and twiddle your thumb and make me think you' ; re busy because I knew how long it took to do the job. So, I would talk with them and try to encourage them to learn other things and most of them would listen. They would listen. And, I' ; d tell them when you finish with your job, let me know and, then I' ; ll go over somebody else' ; s job with you so you' ; ll know how to work that job. It might not benefit you here at this company, but it might benefit you at another company. The more you learn then the better off you are. And, I think because of that, is the reason I like management so well, because I get a chance to touch other people' ; s lives and try to motivate them, but, at first, I have to say that I was a little prejudice about it because I would focus more on the Blacks than I did the Whites. But now, I' ; ve grown, and I' ; ve learned now to try to treat them equally. I don' ; t try to spend more time with the Blacks than I would the Whites. But, in motivating the person, I' ; m willing to -- anyone that' ; s willing to learn-- I' ; m willing to work with you whether or not you' ; re Black or White or red or blue. So, I get a lot of joy out of that. MYLES: What about the Movement today, do you think there' ; s a need? I mean, some people say, " ; We don' ; t need SCLC, we don' ; t need the NAACP, we have arrived." ; COTTON: No. We have not arrived. There' ; s been changes but we have a long way to go. There' ; s still a lot of hatred out there. We' ; ve made some gains, but things could be a lot better than it is today. I think if the Movement was not still active, things would be worse than what it is. But, I think that as a people, a lot of the hatred that' ; s there, I realize is taught by the parents and as the teenagers and our generation now, as they grow older, I think they' ; re learning to reason and read for themselves, but it' ; s still a lot of hate groups out there. You hear them talking about the skinheads and you' ; d be surprised how the Ku Klux Klan is still active. They might not be wearing the white robes as much as they did back in the 50s and 60s, but they' ; re still there. And, we still need to work toward that. I think the Movement is a good thing and I' ; m going to try to be more active in it myself. That was one of the things I promised myself. I had a good experience happen to me last year. I was at the airport getting ready to go to Cincinnati on a trip for my job, a training session and Dr. Shuttlesworth was at the airport. I went over and introduced myself and told him that I was one of those that worked in the Movement and participated in some of the activities when he was in Birmingham and that kind of thing. So, we talked and he told me he lived in Cincinnati and on the plane we got a chance to know each other. And, once I got there, he invited me to his church. That was on a Saturday. That Sunday I went to his church and at the church service, he got up and introduced me and he was saying how proud he was to have someone in his company that was active in the Movement, that marched, that it was a honor for me to be there. And I' ; m just thinking, " ; No, the honor is all mine, because I' ; m here in your presence." ; So, although 30 years later, it was interesting talking to him. His wife' ; s name was Ruby, and my name is Ruby and my mother now lives on Shuttlesworth Drive. MYLES: So it' ; s still there. COTTON: Right, it' ; s still there, but that was a good motivational experience for me because we got a chance to talk about some things in the 90s that need changing. MYLES: What are some of the things in the 90s that you feel need to be changed? COTTON: I think we need to get the youth more involved in activities. I think that if we talk to them more and share more with them, they' ; ll realize the importance of unity and looking out for each other. In today' ; s society there' ; s so much now, hatred with the gangs and drugs is a problem. I know they like to put it on the parents, but I don' ; t think it' ; s all the parents' ; fault. I think as a parent we do the best we can with our children, but I think as parents we need help from the church, we need help from the community, and if we all band together, I think that we can make things better. But, until we do that I don' ; t think things are going to change as rapidly as we would like for them to change. MYLES: Two things before we close. During your time of incarceration and being in the Movement as a teenager, were there any mementos, if you will, or anything that you kept or had that you still have? COTTON: No, I don' ; t. When I went the second time, I had on a white skirt and, when I left the jail it was black. I saved that skirt for a long time. But, then eventually, not that I tried to, but in my moving back and forth from different locations, it got misplaced, so I don' ; t have that. And, then there was a candy bar wrapper that I had because they were selling candy and some of us had money, so I saved the candy bar wrapper for years and finally it got away from me, but I don' ; t have any mementos, just memories of what happened. MYLES: And, finally, is there something that I didn' ; t ask you that, in closing you' ; d like to share with us? COTTON: No, not really. I just liked the opportunity for sharing some of the memories I have from the 60s and I hope that something I' ; ve said will help someone and make their life a little better. I' ; m glad I had the experience. I know my children ask me now, " ; Mom, if you had to do it over again, would you do it?" ; And I said, " ; Yes, in a heartbeat. Only this time around, instead of going two times, I' ; d probably go more than two times." ; How many times it would take to make the world better, I' ; d be willing to give that sacrifice because it was something that Dr. King said in one of his speeches that, " ; If a man didn' ; t have something worth dying for, then it' ; s not worth living, or he shouldn' ; t want to live." ; And, then to me the Movement is so sincere to me that it' ; s worth dying for if that' ; s to help somebody else and I' ; ll be willing to give up my life if that' ; s what it took to make things better for my children, my grandchildren or your children, your grandchildren. I truly and strongly believe in that. If they had to do some of the things today in the 90s as they did back in the 60s, then I' ; ll be willing to participate. MYLES: I know I said that was last question, but I' ; ll make sure this one is. Have you thought about or have you already documented, in writing form, in a pamphlet or book, all of the things and more that you could say that you could have here in a book form that others can continue to read over and over? COTTON: No, I haven' ; t. It' ; s one of those things that I say that I' ; m going to do because they are so many experiences, but I' ; ve kind of kept pushing it aside. I did have a tape at one time of some of the instances and one of my children took it to school as a project and it got misplaced, so I need to do that tape over again. But, that' ; s one of my goals to put something in writing so that my grandchildren could know the story or even do a tape of it, a video tape to have it for later years. MYLES: Well, we certainly look forward to it. COTTON: And, I' ; ve enjoyed the opportunity here for sharing this and it' ; s nice meeting you. MYLES: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ROCotton1996.xml ROCotton1996.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ruby Odom Cotton
Description
An account of the resource
Ruby Odom Cotton discusses her leadership as young lady in the Movement, including the Children's Crusade and two arrests. She went on to become a banker in Birmingham and continues to spread her experience of the Movement.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
19960515C
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.)
Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1996-05-15
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/b0551a04fbfaf4cc0a4c44f91bdfac1e.jpg
9e84ca1e8df5b35f4104638c63ebe817
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Horace Huntley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Rosa Washington
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RWashington1995.xml
Interview Keyword
This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are
included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
Bull Conner
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 April 14, 1995 Rosa Washington 19950414W 0:55:03 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Freedom Rides, 1961 NAACP Bull Conner Rosa Washington Horace Huntley Video 1:|1(2)|18(13)|40(2)|63(2)|77(15)|97(5)|115(12)|135(15)|154(9)|176(2)|188(14)|201(9)|214(9)|225(10)|247(6)|265(4)|280(10)|292(4)|310(4)|323(13)|334(16)|346(17)|363(7)|373(9)|389(2)|416(10)|429(1)|441(12)|453(1)|473(3)|486(15)|500(2)|511(7)|540(13)|560(4)|575(8)|588(3)|607(4)|619(1)|632(1)|644(13)|656(10)|674(5)|692(16)|714(1)|724(15)|737(14)|750(13)|775(2)|791(8)|805(6)|817(7)|829(4)|854(10)|884(5) 0 https://youtu.be/A3TaBYit4RU YouTube video English 68 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Rosa P. Washington for the Oral History Project of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Washington is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 92 Background and Family Life Yes ma'am. I just want to start by just getting a little background information. Washington tells how her father was a sharecropper in rural Alabama. African American-agriculture Davenport (Ala.) ; Sharecropper 224 Why Her Family Moved to Birmingham How long did you stay in Davenport? I know you would eventually come to Birmingham. Washington states that she was the reason her father finally decided to move to Birmingham. Racism ; Sharecropper Birmingham, Ala. ; Rural Alabama 429 Educational Journey So what school did you attend? Washington discusses going to school in ACIPCO and attending the largest high school for black people in the world. American Cast Iron Pipe Company ; Segregation Birmingham (Ala.) 625 Experiencing Colorism in High School What area did you concentrate in? Washington recalls experiencing colorism when she auditioned for the school play. Colorism ; Industrial High School Birmingham (Ala.) 896 ACIPCO Community's Relationship with the Birmingham Police Department Can you describe your community? What was ACIPCO like? Washington recalls how the police acted cruelly towards the people in her neighborhood. Police brutality American Cast Iron Pipe Company ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 997 Family Tragedy and Her Work Experience I worked at ______ and trying to get ready, try to save some money to go to college because my father had had a stroke and couldn't send me. Washington recalls how multiple family members died and her work experience at Newberry's. Domestic work ; Pittsburgh (Penn.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Newberry 1438 Being Hired at Greyhound So Mr. Townsend was her boss? Washington tells how her friend got her a job working at the Greyhound bus station. Greyhound buses Birmingham (Ala.) 1552 Incident with Her White Boss at Work They were. Sometimes they jumped my gun and I -- I am an outspoken person if you push me too far. Washington recalls how her boss harassed her for a dime after she used one of his to take the bus. Greyhound buses ; Racism Birmingham (Ala.) 1865 Working as a Maid at Greyhound What were your responsibilities there? Washington states how she cleaned the white and colored waiting rooms at the bus station. African Americans--Segregation ; Greyhound buses Birmingham (Ala.) 1986 Personal Involvement in the Movement What community did you live in at that time? Washington recalls how she joined the NAACP through her church and how she attended mass meetings. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People Birmingham (Ala.) 2101 Memories of the Freedom Riders At the time that you were working at the bus station, in 1961 there was a group of students from the north that came and they were called Freedom Riders. Washington tells how she was working at the Greyhound station when the Freedom Riders came in. 1961 Freedom Rides ; Blacks-segregation Birmingham (Ala.) 2270 Bull Conner and Birmingham Police's Reaction to the Freedom Riders Did you witness any of the attacks? Washington discusses how Conner and the police were very harsh to the Freedom Riders. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Bull Conner Anniston (Ala.) ; Freedom Rides, 1961 2616 Witnessing Police Brutality at the Children's March Did you get any more actively involved in the Movement after you witnessed this at the bus station? Washington recalls how the police reacted cruelly towards the children at the Children's March. 1963 Children's March ; Police brutality-United States Birmingham (Ala.) 2729 Experiencing Racism in the Workplace Did that change as a result of the Freedom Riders? Washington discusses how she experienced racism and sexism when applying for a promotion. Racism ; Sexism Birmingham (Ala.) ; Greyhound buses 3205 Retirement Dinner at The Club And that's where you retired from? Washington recalls how her white boss took her and her husband to The Club for her retirement dinner. Greyhound buses ; The Club Birmingham (Ala.) 3275 Conclusion of Interview Good. Thank you again for coming out. We certainly appreciate it. Interview is concluded. Oral History Rosa Washington discusses living in ACIPCO and being involved with the NAACP. She worked at the Greyhound station when the Freedom Riders came through. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Rosa P. Washington for the Oral History Project of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. Today is April 14, 1995 and we are at Miles College. Thank you Mrs. Washington for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit and talk with us today. WASHINGTON: Thank you. It' ; s a privilege and blessing to do so. HUNTLEY: Yes ma' ; am. I just want to start by just getting a little background information. Tell me, were you born in Birmingham? WASHINGTON: I was born in a little town called Davenport, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Davenport. Where is Davenport, Alabama? WASHINGTON: About 25 miles south of Montgomery. Between Montgomery and... HUNTLEY: Okay. Were both of your parents from that area of the state? WASHINGTON: My father was. But my mother was from a little town called Sandy Ridge. Not too far from Greenville, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Okay. The same direction then? WASHINGTON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Okay. Tell me a little about your parents? WASHINGTON: They were very diligent, hard working people. When they came to Birmingham my daddy rented for a year and said he couldn' ; t get the kind of house he wanted, but he brought the property and built an expensive house with the intention of leaving the south when I started to high school. But his health prevented him from doing that. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about their experiences in Davenport. What did he do in Davenport? WASHINGTON: He was a farmer -- he was a sharecropper farmer and he had three brothers in that area why he hesitated so long to move to Birmingham. Then the youngest brother came to Birmingham and went to work. And he didn' ; t come until I said I wanted to see White men work rather than riding around kicking dirt on them. HUNTLEY: We are going to get to that one. Let me ask you how many brothers and sisters did you have? WASHINGTON: One brother ; 13 years difference in our ages. HUNTLEY: Okay. Are you younger or older? WASHINGTON: Younger. HUNTLEY: You were younger, okay. Tell me about the education of your parents. WASHINGTON: My daddy didn' ; t go any further than the third or fourth grade. And my mother went to the fifth. HUNTLEY: And they were sharecroppers in south Alabama? WASHINGTON: Right. HUNTLEY: How long did you stay in Davenport? I know you would eventually come to Birmingham. Why would your parents decide to come to Birmingham at the time that they did? WASHINGTON: Because my daddy wanted to please me. I told him I didn' ; t want to be on the farm where White men ride around and kick dirt on me. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. How did that happen? WASHINGTON: I was a child playing in a large cotton basket. My parents were hoeing and the owner of the farm came riding by on his big stallion horse and he rode up beside my basket where I was playing and threw candy in the basket to me. And the horse kicked dirt in the basket on me. I became angry, jumped up and turned the basket upside down and went running down the road calling my daddy. And the man was right behind me on the horse and daddy didn' ; t like that. He said " ; Why you chasing her?" ; He said, " ; She didn' ; t want me to give her candy, she poured it out because the horse kicked dirt in her basket." ; And I asked daddy, " ; When are you going to get a job where White folks work and not ride around and kick dirt on me?" ; HUNTLEY: So you didn' ; t think that he was doing any work, he was just riding around harassing you? WASHINGTON: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: And what did your mother say in that regard? WASHINGTON: Well, my mother had always -- had been after him for awhile to leave and come to Birmingham to find work. And when she got up to the area where he was holding me, he locked his arms around me and dropped to his knees. And my mother asked him say, " ; Why you holding that child like that ; and she' ; s screaming and both of you wringing wet with sweat?" ; And he jumped and looked at her as if she dropped out of space. He didn' ; t know who she was. And he just took a deep breath and let me go. And when we got home to dinner, he just kept looking at me and cut his eye at her and look at me again and he said " ; Can you handle the farm at harvesting time? I' ; m going to Birmingham and look for me a job. I don' ; t intend for my girl child (which was me, he was referring to me) to ask me the question that she asked me today." ; And she said, " ; What?" ; He told her " ; Why couldn' ; t I get a job where White folks work and not driving around kicking dirt on me?" ; And she was glad. And she told him " ; Well, don' ; t worry, just don' ; t worry." ; But she felt like getting up hugging me to death. HUNTLEY: As she was ready to leave the farm? WASHINGTON: Yes. She was ready to leave the farm. And when harvesting time come, he came to Birmingham and was fortunate enough to find a job. HUNTLEY: What was his first job in Birmingham, do you remember? WASHINGTON: Working at the ACIPICO plant. HUNTLEY: And how long did he work at ACIPICO? WASHINGTON: That was from ' ; 20 to ' ; 31 when he had a stroke. HUNTLEY: How old were you when you came to Birmingham to live? WASHINGTON: Not quite eight. HUNTLEY: Did you live in ACIPICO at the time? WASHINGTON: Yes. HUNTLEY: So what school did you attend? WASHINGTON: West ACIPICO school. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your school? WASHINGTON: I thought it was fantastic because we had the school building. It wasn' ; t quite large enough for all the classes and the first through the third went to school in a church that was nearby and when, in the later years, I don' ; t remember exactly what year, but there was a Mr. Walker was there and Mr. -- I can' ; t call the man' ; s name now, but anyway they moved -- he was living in a two-story building and when ACIPICO changed and turned the school over to the public school system, he made those men move out of that building and that building was called a domestic science building. They taught you table manners, boys how to escort girls in a building and how to put the chair up to the table and let the girl sit down to eat back up to the table. They taught us to make beds, how to keep house really. It was called a domestic science building. And they taught sewing and some shoe repair. HUNTLEY: So the school was actually owned by ACIPICO initially? WASHINGTON: Yes, at first. HUNTLEY: And then they deeded the school to the Birmingham school system? WASHINGTON: Right. HUNTLEY: What school did you attend after ACIPICO? WASHINGTON: When I finished ACIPICO I went to Lincoln. I guess you would call it a mid school. I went to Lincoln from the 9th through the 10th grade. And then went to Industrial High. HUNTLEY: And Industrial High at that time was termed to be the largest high school in the world for Black folk. That is what was suggested. WASHINGTON: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Industrial High School? WASHINGTON: I thought it was great. Professor Parker was the principal of the school and he always stressed, don' ; t soil these uniforms because the girls wore blue and the boys wore khaki until they got into the 12th grade. And after that the girls had to wear white and the men wore dark suits, blue trousers or a blue suit. HUNTLEY: So you were immaculately dressed? WASHINGTON: Yes. HUNTLEY: At Industrial High? WASHINGTON: Right. HUNTLEY: I know being in an industrial school there were a number of areas that you could sort of concentrate in. What were some of those areas? WASHINGTON: There was dressmaking, beauty culture, carpentry, shoe making and tailoring and printing. HUNTLEY: What area did you concentrate in? WASHINGTON: I was interested in dramatics and I was trying to take dramatics and I had a let down with the dramatics. I was training for the leading lady part -- every part had two persons to see which one would handle it the best. And I was given the part and I was -- Oh, I was so proud the leading lady -- " ; The mistress" ; as it was called. And I would perform before my family, friends on the school grounds. My friends and they would say " ; Rosy, you got it, you got it." ; And Edna Elliot had the -- we had the same part and when I -- we would practice and the teacher said I had done well. Then Edna come up, Edna didn' ; t remember her lines in some instances and said that she wasn' ; t putting enough action in it. And when it was over, Mrs. Wyatt told me, " ; Rosa you performed beautifully, and I admire the way you have learned and studied. But this part is for a White mistress and you are too dark for that part, I' ; ll give it to Edna." ; HUNTLEY: So you lost your part as a result of being too dark? WASHINGTON: And I didn' ; t -- kids now would have thrown a fit on her but I didn' ; t. I picked up my books and I was like that trying to keep from crying and going across the campus to another classroom and I met Mrs. Mahalia Morris and she was very dark. She taught math and she called me ' ; ACIPICO Skinny' ; because I didn' ; t weigh 90 pounds. And she said " ; ACIPICO Skinny, what' ; s wrong with you. You act like you' ; re about to explode?" ; I said, " ; I' ; m all right." ; And she stopped me, she said " ; No, you' ; re not. What is wrong?" ; Then I burst out and went to crying and told her what had been said to me. She said " ; Don' ; t let nobody put you down. Dry your tears." ; She took her handkerchief and wiped my tears. She said " ; Get right in here, get something up here and tell the world to go to hell." ; She said " ; Nobody -- everybody knows I know this book that I carry." ; She was teaching math and algebra. And she said " ; I found an error in this book that the company had to recall when I sent it to them. And I got big bucks for it. And I defy anybody to do more with the teaching of these subjects than I can." ; And said " ; That' ; s what you do. Don' ; t get hurt about your color, God made us all." ; HUNTLEY: How did that experience impact you in your life? WASHINGTON: For awhile, while I was in school and as a youngster I felt put down because for years the lighter people tried to put the darker skin aside. And at that time Parker had more light teachers, light complexion teachers, fair skin than they did darker teachers because they said that' ; s what Professor Parker stressed. HUNTLEY: Were there any other examples of this division based on color at Parker? Were there other kids that were impacted upon in the same way? WASHINGTON: Yeah. Some said they felt it, too. HUNTLEY: What about your majorettes and your various teams? Did they mirror that kind of mentality? WASHINGTON: Somewhat, yes they did. But if you were really good, they had to acknowledge it. HUNTLEY: What grade were you in when that took place? Do you remember? WASHINGTON: I think it' ; s about the 11th grade. HUNTLEY: At that time were you living in ACIPICO? WASHINGTON: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: Can you describe your community? What was ACIPICO like? WASHINGTON: It was the common hardworking people and most of it was rental property. There was some few homeowners on 26th Avenue and further up. But the area where I lived, the alley divided my area from -- separated the White after you passed 29th Avenue or 28th Alley, they were all White. HUNTLEY: So most of the people that lived there worked for ACIPICO? WASHINGTON: Yes, quite a few. HUNTLEY: Were there other occupations that people had in that area? Do you remember? WASHINGTON: No. Some worked at Dickie Clay plant and some worked at Ensley plant. There were a few who had taken less training -- one or two were in that area. HUNTLEY: Did your mother work outside of the home? WASHINGTON: No, she didn' ; t. HUNTLEY: What was your communities relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? WASHINGTON: Oh, wow! Whenever they would come in the neighborhood, if it was next door, you could hear them banging if you were in your bed because they always knocked so severely, so hard. I had been told by some young men that they would just see them on the street and call them to the car. And when they get there they would roll the window and ask them some questions and roll it up where they couldn' ; t get their head out and beat them on the head. HUNTLEY: After you finished Industrial High School, what did you do? WASHINGTON: I worked at and trying to get ready, try to save some money to go to college because my father had had a stroke and he couldn' ; t send me. I met this young man, come down to visit his father from Pittsburgh, and we fell in love. And he told me if " ; I would marry him.. I told him I wanted to go to college. " ; Well, if you marry me, I' ; ll take you back to Pittsburgh and send you to Penn State." ; But, after we were married, he took me up to Penn State nearly every Sunday or Saturday or whatever they had up there for entertainment and he' ; d take me up there. And I told him " ; I' ; m tired of going up sightseeing, I want to go in." ; He said " ; Well, when I can get a better job I' ; ll send you." ; And the second year he was there, he contracted tuberculosis and I didn' ; t get to go to college. At five years of our marriage, he passed and I moved back to Birmingham. My father had passed, my brother had a tragedy in the family and the mother died. The children' ; s mother -- he had five children and I was left to take care of the children. I was home a year and a month and lost my mother in death and I was crushed because so many tragic things had happened in my life. And I went to work. My mother was on welfare and I had to report her death and when I reported it she was only getting $25 dollars a month and they asked me was I working. I said " ; Yes." ; " ; How much do you earn?" ; I said " ; Seven dollars a week." ; " ; Well, that' ; s more than allowed for a family your size." ; So they cut me off. I said " ; I' ; m just keeping my brothers children, they are not my children." ; They said, " ; But you are and you were...we' ; ll have to cut you off and you support the children." ; And that was rough. Six people to be taken care of. HUNTLEY: On seven dollars a week? WASHINGTON: Seven dollars a week. HUNTLEY: Where were you working at the time? WASHINGTON: I was working at Newberry' ; s. HUNTLEY: What did you do at Newberry' ; s? WASHINGTON: I was a maid at Newberry' ; s. There was a dress shop there then. And I worked there and on Monday and Thursday I had to work at the manager' ; s house. And when I worked, they would go party and come in at 1:00 and 2:00 o' ; clock and take me home and I was expected to be at work at the same time at the store as usual. So when the maid quit, she kept trying to get me to work in the house and I told her I had a responsibility that I couldn' ; t do that. I didn' ; t tell her what it was and she kept having me washing back and forth. And she told me that I -- that they let me work at their home when the maid quit and I told her that I couldn' ; t stay as late as I did then. And I asked for more money and she said she couldn' ; t pay any more money because when I worked there, I got three meals a day. Wherein if I was at the store, I had to pay for my lunch and eat my breakfast at home and bring my lunch. So giving me three meals would supply the income. And, they kept working me like that and a friend of the family moved from the farm and I carried her on the job and they made it. She kept her and I kept going and work on Monday and Thursday. So one morning when I got there I was making my breakfast and I told her that I couldn' ; t get there at seven because of my responsibility. I would come at the same time I went to the store and she asked me, after the woman was there about a couple of months. She said " ; Rosa, why is it that Mamie has to be here at 7:00 o' ; clock to get Manny' ; s breakfast to get him off to work and you come in and she has had her breakfast. You show up at 9:00 and you making your breakfast?" ; I said " ; I beg your pardon?" ; I understood her but I wanted to see. And she said -- she repeated it. I said " ; Well, these were your plans. You told me you couldn' ; t pay any more money and three meals would be a supplement of my salary." ; " ; Don' ; t stand there and do your proper talking and bucking your big eyes at me. You got to work with them five youngin' ; s you got there." ; I said " ; if you can show me God Almighty' ; s hand writing on the wall, telling me I got to work for a poor ass Jew like you, I' ; ll be here to hell freeze over." ; And she said something else snazzy to me and I reached for her. I forgot I had put the clothes on soak on a bar stool -- she did not have a washing machine. And I reached for her and water and clothes went all over the place and the girl that was working she said, " ; Don' ; t you do that, what' ; s the matter with you?" ; I said " ; Take your hands off of me. If you hadn' ; t flapped your lips, she wouldn' ; t know what to say to me. Let me get out of here." ; And I grabbed my work clothes and made a dash for the door. And she said " ; You needn' ; t show up at the store." ; I said " ; Who want to show up at the store? I' ; m sick of you Jews." ; And I left. And I had people, I had seventy-five cents between me, heaven, hell and the poor house. And I had to use a dime of that to get to home. When I got to town I used a nickel to call my date and tell him that I could go see Duke Ellington. He was coming to town. And he said, " ; Well, child let me go get my tickets because after 10:00 the tickets go up." ; And I went home. HUNTLEY: And you went to see Duke Ellington? WASHINGTON: I went to see Duke Ellington. And when I waken the next morning I said, " ; My gosh, it' ; s Thursday and I' ; d rather wait until the first of the week and go see about a job." ; So I got the kids their breakfast and I went back to bed. About 11:00 o' ; clock my best friend through the years came. She said " ; Girl, what in the world is wrong with you? I called the store and they say you weren' ; t there. I called the house and the woman almost hung up in my face telling me you weren' ; t there." ; And I told her what had happened. She said " ; Well, God bless you. The Lord takes care of fools and babies. With this heavy responsibility you have, you have walked off of your job. And Mr. Townsend has observed you." ; She was off a half an hour for lunch and I had an hour for lunch and I would walk up there and visit with her on her lunch period. HUNTLEY: So Mr. Townsend was her boss? WASHINGTON: Yes. And he said " ; I admire that girlfriend of yours that comes here. She does not wrestle and tussle and chase the porters. She just stands around and wait until you can talk to her and she is very courteous and polite." ; Because he told me one day, " ; You keep hanging around here, I' ; m going to put you to work and not give you a dime." ; I said " ; Well, we' ; ll see about that." ; And he told her to come get me and see if I would work. I left -- got to the station at 11:00 o' ; clock and they sent me to Dr. Thuss for a physical and he didn' ; t show up until 4:30 to give me an exam, and he told his nurse this has been one hectic day. I am so tired and started to pull of his coat. She said " ; Don' ; t undress yet. Greyhound has someone here." ; He say " ; What' ; s wrong with him." ; She said " ; It' ; s not a he." ; And he said " ; Come here Catherine." ; That was my friend' ; s name. And he said " ; No, she' ; s not Catherine, her name is Rosa and I don' ; t know anything about Rosa." ; And so when I walked in, she told him I was to be there for my physical for them to hire me. He said " ; Stick out your tongue," ; and put that paddle in there and had me say " ; ah" ; and he took my pulse. And he said " ; Do you have a hernia?" ; I said, " ; No." ; " ; Do you have hemorrhoids?" ; I said " ; No." ; He wrote me out the statement that I was hired. He said " ; You go on, if they don' ; t hire you, I will, come back here." ; HUNTLEY: So did they hire you? WASHINGTON: Yes, they hired me. HUNTLEY: And how long were you there? WASHINGTON: Working at Greyhound? HUNTLEY: Yes. WASHINGTON: Thirty-seven years and four months. HUNTLEY: Thirty-seven and four. So they must have been pleased with your work? WASHINGTON: They were. Sometimes they jumped my gun and I -- I am an outspoken person if you push me too far. HUNTLEY: Give me an example of them " ; jumping your gun." ; WASHINGTON: We had a mop pail that you had to push down on the lever and pull up on the mop to wring the mop and it had been broken for about three months and the manager kept promising and promising. So the thing popped loose and hit me on my leg and it was so painful. And, as dark as I am it was just fire red but it didn' ; t break the skin. I went in the office and I told him, " ; Mr. Drennan, look at my leg, what are you going to do, wait until that scrub bucket injure us. We been tying it with a rope and string and whatever and I don' ; t want my leg broken." ; " ; Oh, I just forgot." ; I said " ; Well if you give me the money, I' ; ll walk down to Wimbley & ; Thomas' ; and get a mop bucket." ; So he gave me a twenty dollar bill and I walked down to Wimbley & ; Thomas on Morris Avenue and 20th Street and got the bucket. But I was too Black and proud to walk that far carrying that heavy bucket. I used a dime for trolley fare. When I got back I gave him the receipt for the bucket and counted out the change and I told him I used a dime for transportation. " ; What are you talking about, I didn' ; t authorize you for transportation. That' ; s the company' ; s money." ; I said " ; Well, I' ; ll tell the company that you didn' ; t give us supplies and I had to go get it and I think I' ; m entitled to transportation." ; " ; You going to give me my dime." ; And I turned and walked off. It was so often he would ask me, he would see me working -- give him his dime. And I would just look at him, smile and walk off. So I was cleaning the White lobby, sweeping in the lobby and a White woman' ; s baby was soiled and she asked me to get her some wet paper towels or whatever to clean the baby. When I brought her the soap, wet towels and some dry ones, to clean her baby, she gave me two dimes and a nickel -- tipping me. And I thanked her. He was standing about as far off as that and he called me. He said " ; Rosa, come here." ; When I walked over to him he said, " ; I saw that woman give you two dimes and a nickel. Now give me my dime." ; I said " ; I don' ; t have your dime." ; He said " ; Give me my dime. You owe me a dime where you took out for trolley fare." ; I said " ; I couldn' ; t afford to walk six blocks carrying that heavy bucket and that' ; s why I used the dime." ; " ; Well, what are you talking about? There are hundreds of colored women who would be glad to walk not only six blocks but six miles for the salary you' ; re making." ; I jabbed that broom handle in his chest. I said " ; Well, the first one that comes along, tell her to start sweeping." ; He handed it back to me and got that -- " ; You better get this floor swept." ; So I went on and swept the floors. HUNTLEY: So he didn' ; t bother you about the dime any longer? WASHINGTON: And when I finished sweeping I went in to check the ladies lounge. The cashier, the owner of the restaurant, she came dashing in behind me. She said " ; You better be glad that Mr. Owens is a kindhearted gentleman. A many boss would have fired you with your sassy talk." ; I said " ; If I was slinging hash for you, I guess you would have fired me? Before I let anybody drag me down I would crawl the street on my hands and knees and pick peanuts out of elephant droppings." ; She said " ; Well, Miss Rosa, well, Miss Rosa." ; I said, " ; Thank you." ; And I went on about my business. HUNTLEY: She said " ; Well, Miss Rosa?" ; WASHINGTON: And for the life of her stay there, she referred to me as Miss Rosa. HUNTLEY: Was that unusual for a White woman to say Miss to a Black woman? WASHINGTON: That' ; s right. And a further incident. The Traveler' ; s Aid booth was in the lobby and one day she called me to her and said " ; Rosa, I want to ask you something. You' ; re intelligent and I like to talk with you. Which of your people do you have the most respect for." ; I said, " ; What you say?" ; " ; Which of your people do you have the most respect for, the lighter skin or the darker skin?" ; I said " ; Be they White, Black, mulatto, Indian, Sioux or Crow, the people that do most for humanity are the people that we look up to." ; " ; Thank you, Miss Rosa." ; And I was Miss Rosa to her from then on. HUNTLEY: So you would not back off any of them, right? You didn' ; t take anything from anyone? WASHINGTON: Because my father always told me " ; Whoever you' ; re talking to or whoever is talking to you, look them in the eye. Don' ; t get an itch somewhere or some dirt on your foot and squirming and looking off. Look them in the eye." ; HUNTLEY: What were your responsibilities there. HUNTLEY: I was a maid. I was supposed to take care of the White and Colored waiting rooms. I was supposed to keep the baggage room swept, ticket office swept and take care of the Black waiting room. And the White waiting room they had about six toilets, two wash rooms. Two of them were washrooms where you paid a quarter to go in and you could stay and get washed up in a face bowl. The others there was a face bowl out for all the public. In the colored waiting room, as it was called then, there were seats -- benches with dividers in them. And there was a window I' ; d say about with an opening about two feet square opening. And when there were two armed chairs there, if you ordered food, you ring a bell for food and they would bring the food to the Black passengers and they would sit there and eat. If they were -- if more people ordered they would have to sit on those benches and there was one ticket window exposed to the Black area. There were 3 or 4, I think, on the White side. HUNTLEY: Now, in this period we are talking is a totally segregated society. How did that manifest itself in the bus station? WASHINGTON: There were separate waiting rooms and separate bathrooms, restrooms. And the ticket window faced -- the larger part of it faced the White lobby and this one window would serve the Blacks. And the agents sometimes would just stand there and wait on all that was in the front and not take turns and turn around and wait on those in the window. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in at that time? WASHINGTON: At that time I was living in ACIPICO. HUNTLEY: You' ; re still living in ACIPICO. Did you move from ACIPICO to another community? WASHINGTON: I moved in ' ; 61. HUNTLEY: To what community? WASHINGTON: Where I am now, on Enon Ridge. HUNTLEY: And your community, was it an active community? Did you have community organizations? WASHINGTON: No. HUNTLEY: You did not have any? WASHINGTON: No. HUNTLEY: Were you ever a member of the NAACP? WASHINGTON: Yes, I joined the NAACP through my church. HUNTLEY: Okay. What church were you a member of? WASHINGTON: Thurgood CME Church on the corner of Center Street and 6th Avenue. HUNTLEY: Were you a registered voter? WASHINGTON: Yes. When they allowed us to vote, I registered to vote. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me when did you register to vote and do you remember any incident that took place? Was it very difficult to register to vote? Was it a simple process? WASHINGTON: It was a simple process. We were eligible to vote and we had to go up and register to vote and have questions asked about different political areas. HUNTLEY: Did you ever attend any of the mass meetings of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights? Any of the mass meetings when Dr. King was in town? Or when Shuttlesworth was speaking? WASHINGTON: Yes. Dr. King preached a couple of sermons there at the AOH Church of God that was located on 7th Avenue and 18th Street at that time. HUNTLEY: At the time that you were working at the bus station, in 1961 there was a group of students from the north that came and they were called Freedom Riders. WASHINGTON: Right. HUNTLEY: Were you working the day that they came in? Did you witness what happened as a result of them coming into Birmingham? WASHINGTON: I was sweeping what they called the White waiting room then, facing 19th Street. The entrance to the Black waiting room was facing the back and I was sweeping. And I was nervous and tense because I had heard that they were coming and it was Mother' ; s Day. When I heard the doors -- there were two front entrances. One would let you out and one was supposed to come in. But they both opened at the same time -- they would make a " ; sss" ; sound and when I looked around those Black youth were coming in. Some went in the dining room, some went in the mens room, four went in the ladies room. And when they went in there, the White women rushed out as if a wild animal had come in there. And it was just a trauma. And when the news got back to the manager of the restaurant, he came running in and just like that door is there, there was a window to the baggage room and on each side was a water fountain. He ran, oh, I' ; d say about ten feet passed it, clapped his finger and whirled around and yanked the wiring out of the wall from the fountain so there would be no cool water. And that brought a lump to my throat because that meant no cool water for White or Black. Then he rushed down to the restaurant and when he got there the Blacks were in there, he tried to get them out. And he had a worker stand at the door and not let anymore in and those that were in there were trying to order food. He demanded that the workers remove the food from the steam table and leave menus out for the Whites. That brought tears because Black and White hands prepared the food, Black and White hands were removing the food. Yet, Black and White could not sit in the same room and eat the food. HUNTLEY: Were there both Black and White students that came in on the buses or was it just Black? WASHINGTON: I didn' ; t see anything but Black, but somebody told me there was some Whites with them. HUNTLEY: This same day there were those -- there were some that were attacked? WASHINGTON: Right. HUNTLEY: Did you witness any of the attacks? WASHINGTON: No I did not. Because the bus was set afire in Anniston and Bull Conner, the commissioner form of government we had, he was the commissioner and the news was broadcasting about the Freedom Riders coming and he went to the city limit line and waited for it. When they got there he boarded -- flagged the bus, and boarded the bus and told them not to come into Birmingham -- they weren' ; t wanted here. And they told him they would be back. He had a regiment of policemen with him. But they turned around and said they would come back. And then Bull Conner brought his regiment to the bus station. They were out on the loading zone where the buses come in. And they were cursing and saying ugly things about what was going to happen when the damn niggers get here. And I was tense and afraid because you don' ; t know who' ; s mean enough to throw a bomb in there and get me. And I waited and very nervously -- the four girls that went into the restroom, the Whites came out like they were scared to death. And this, one little White woman, she sat near the door where she could see the track and get to the restroom before the time for her to get on the bus. And she looked up, she said, " ; Well, here' ; s them damn niggers." ; She rushed into the lounge and I tried to console her -- I stepped forward to console her and she let me know she didn' ; t want to be bothered. And those kids were there. When I left, I worked a relief shift. I left at 3:30. I hung around a little longer, but my shift was over at 3:30 and I had to be back the next morning at 7:00 o' ; clock. When I got back at 7:00 o' ; clock those kids were still there. And I was so nervous I didn' ; t rest well. I brought my breakfast and my lunch. When I went into the ladies lounge to clean in there, three girls were in there gagging, perspiring and have crying and I told them " ; Have you had any food?" ; They said " ; No ma' ; am." ; I said " ; Well, I brought my lunch and my breakfast, I' ; ll share it with you or I' ; ll get permission to go to the A& ; P up on the corner and get you some food or some juice." ; They both stepped forward and looked me in the eye. " ; No, ma' ; am. Thank you. We will not accept your food. We are dedicated to a change. And if you give us food, you' ; re helping to defeat our cause." ; The four of us locked arms and cried. HUNTLEY: So they would not accept the food? WASHINGTON: No. And about 9:00, 10:00 o' ; clock somewhere along that time a big, burly, heavy set policeman with a K-9 on leash and his billy stick and cuff links jingling on his hip. A well dressed tall man was with him. And I believed him to be a detective and they passed me and just before they got out of ear shot from me, he said " ; Tell me ... I hear tell one of these little niggers going to pray this morning. I want to hear what he is going tell God when I turn this dog loose on his Black ass." ; That brought a shudder. I just started spot sweeping and running, trying to hear what was going to be said or done. A little bit after they got out there, a young Black man, I wish I knew who he was, stepped up on the float, that' ; s a wagon that push the luggage, locked his hands behind his back and raised his face towards heaven and he prayed. I don' ; t remember all of his prayer, but this he said " ; Dear God, we keep their houses, we take care of their children, we prepare their food, please God, tell these pharaoh' ; s to let your people go. All we want is a place to choose our place to sit down." ; HUNTLEY: And that touched you? WASHINGTON: That touched me and touched him too. A little bit later he came through there, both of them had a stern look on their face, the two that had just passed through. And the fat one was dabbing eyes. I can' ; t swear it was tears, but he was patting his face as if there were tears. HUNTLEY: So what happened to those individuals, those young people? WASHINGTON: They were there until later on in the evening because I was off at 3:00. But later on Attorney General, Robert Kennedy, called and told them to get them out of there to Montgomery where they were traveling. HUNTLEY: Who did Kennedy call? WASHINGTON: He called Mr. Hunt and Mr. Owens. G. J. Owens. I don' ; t remember Hunt' ; s name. But whoever the officials were, they got the call. HUNTLEY: How did you know that they had gotten the call? WASHINGTON: I was told that they got a call. HUNTLEY: So the word was circulating throughout the facility? WASHINGTON: That Kennedy had called. Attorney General Kennedy had called and told them to get them on their way and a bus driver, Joe Cabinero took them to Montgomery. And, I was told that the policemen escorted them out of the city to the city limit. HUNTLEY: Did you get any more actively involved in the Movement after you witnessed this at the bus station? WASHINGTON: No. My working hours didn' ; t allow me to, you know, get in the parade or walk. But I did walk down to Booker T. Washington' ; s school on my lunch break and I saw them when they turned the hose on. They had to have the fire hose connected to spray the kids with that force of water, but didn' ; t no water come out. HUNTLEY: No water came out? WASHINGTON: No. HUNTLEY: But you witnessed the attempt from the fire department to use the hoses on the marchers? WASHINGTON: Right. HUNTLEY: Was this when the children were marching? WASHINGTON: Right. HUNTLEY: What was your reaction to seeing this event? WASHINGTON: It couldn' ; t help but bring tears to my eyes. I was saddened and almost afraid to walk the street alone. Because some Whites were arrogant toward all Blacks. But the change come and Mr. Herman Hardy, he was a porter, they got him into being assistant manager in Greyhound. And in ' ; 63 -- up until the Freedom Riders, everybody was classified as porters, maids and cleaners were Class " ; B" ; employees. Ticket agents, baggage agents, express agents, office personnel were White. HUNTLEY: Did that change as a result of the Freedom Riders? WASHINGTON: Yes it did. Because Mr. Herman Hardy was made assistant supervisor and then to get into the higher job classification they had a question and answer elimination program and I tried to get my best friend who got me the job to take the test and she was leery about taking it and she got sick and I told her I was off and I would come to see her and she asked me to stop at the terminal and get her a sick claim. While I was in there, it hit me like a thunderbolt when I turned around and I saw the manager. I asked him if I could take the test. He said " ; Well, Miss Rosa you' ; re older now." ; I said " ; Both of us are ten minutes older than I was when we walked in here." ; He said some more remarks. I said " ; Are you telling me you' ; re not going to allow me to take the test?" ; He said " ; No, I didn' ; t say that." ; And the secretary was a racist. She was just bowing and looking and cutting her eyes at me and him. So I had learned that 3 or 4 porters had took the test and they failed. The manager told them that they had failed. I said " ; You' ; re not going to let me..." ; " ; Yes, you can get it." ; So when I took the test, he said " ; Well, what time do you come to work." ; I said, " ; I' ; m off today." ; " ; Well, I' ; ll have it graded when you come back." ; I said " ; I' ; m off today and I can stay here until you get time to do it." ; So he just kind of chuckled and he...is going to be kind of hard. HUNTLEY: You said passing was 64 and what did you make on the test? WASHINGTON: Sixty-nine. HUNTLEY: You made 69? WASHINGTON: Yes. He said " ; Well, you' ; re not like the porters. They have been exposed to it because they have to handle the baggage and that kind of thing." ; I said " ; Are you still telling me you' ; re not going to let me try?" ; HUNTLEY: What job were you? WASHINGTON: I was a maid. And I was going to information. HUNTLEY: Okay. Information, was that previously a White job? WASHINGTON: All White. HUNTLEY: Okay. And then what happened? WASHINGTON: Well, I passed it. HUNTLEY: Did you get the job? WASHINGTON: At first they had a bus driver who had -- his health had stopped him from driving buses and he was in the baggage room. And when he learned that I had passed and the shift was posted, he started watching me. If I went out to the dumpster, he' ; d run and peep to see where I went. If I went to go around to the colored waiting room, he was peeping to see where I was. So, I discovered he was watching me and some of the other fellows say, " ; He' ; s watching you, he' ; s watching you." ; So I started out and he saw me going and he didn' ; t see me. He ran back and looked and he didn' ; t see me. I hid down in a telephone booth. And he came to the window peeping and while he was peeping at the window, a customer came up, a shipper. And he started writing a shipper up and it was 3 minutes to 4:00. You had to sign it before 4:00 o' ; clock. I signed and he saw me -- he come running back there. " ; You needn' ; t be signing them, you needn' ; t be signing. I' ; m too old to work back here. I' ; m tired of lifting all this mess. I' ; m going into information, you' ; re not going in there." ; I said " ; That' ; s your privilege." ; And I turned and walked off. But God took care of that. He wasn' ; t in there two months before he called him in. And I went in there. HUNTLEY: So you would eventually get the position that you had -- WASHINGTON: Yes. But at first I went in the baggage room. I took that shift. But when the luggage was too heavy or packages from the waiting room -- the window that was exposed to the White waiting room. The men would tell them to come around, come inside the baggage room. But when I started, they told me I couldn' ; t do it. I had to lift it. And they disqualified me on those grounds. HUNTLEY: That you couldn' ; t lift? WASHINGTON: Lift the luggage like I should. So, after he left the shift was open. My vacation was coming up in about two weeks or three. They let somebody work double until I went on my vacation. When I come back one of the men had passed -- one of the porters. And he was in there. And I come back I asked " ; How did he get in there and I had more seniority?" ; And they told me blah, blah, blah. Well, anyway, I went to the union representative. He told me " ; Well, when Wednesday comes you just go on in there. You' ; re qualified." ; And when I went in there, this guy was named Johnny Green. He was sitting in there and the supervisor' ; s monitoring us and heard the two voices, so they called Johnny out and one ticket agent would help me some time. The woman that worked in there would meet me every morning for me to share my breakfast with her. She sat with her back to me and was so hostile and ugly to me. And I was trying and they wouldn' ; t let me take a manual home where I could study with it. And one night I was seeing a relative off and I was carrying her luggage and Mr. Jim Nalley who was a very liberal man, he saw me. He said " ; Rosa, you all, where you going?" ; And I told him. He said " ; Well, I want you to come into the office before you leave." ; Dispatcher' ; s office. When I went in, he said, " ; I hear that they are thinking about disqualifying you, but if anybody can do it, I know you can. You have the pleasant voice and you read, you can see and they did not treat you right. They gave you two days training and give everybody else two weeks training and I' ; m going to have you know what you' ; re doing when you leave here tonight." ; I stayed from -- and he told my husband. " ; You can sit down over there or you can go back to your car and lay down. But when Rosa goes out of here, she is going to know how to find her routings." ; He kept me in there from 9:15 until he was off at 12:00 o' ; clock. The next morning I was off and my husband woke me up. He had prepared breakfast and he told me, I said " ; Oh, you so smart, you fixing breakfast and it' ; s not Saturday morning." ; He had always made breakfast Saturday. He said " ; Yes, if God put Mr. Nalley into your life to strengthen you to keep your job, I' ; m your husband, I' ; m going to stick closer than he did. You' ; re not going to do anything today but eat, sleep and stay with that book." ; Mr. Nalley gave me a discarded manual -- what they called Russell Guide and told me how to use it. When I went back to work the next day, this woman that had been sitting with her back to me said " ; Huh, what happened to you? What kind of smartie pills you been taking?" ; I said, " ; I took the Lord in prayer and he sent me a friend." ; HUNTLEY: So you then retained that job? WASHINGTON: I retained that job for fourteen years and four months. HUNTLEY: And that' ; s where you retired from? WASHINGTON: That' ; s where I retired from. HUNTLEY: It' ; s been really a pleasure sitting and talking with you today because you have really given -- you have educated us. WASHINGTON: Thank you. HUNTLEY: I certainly appreciate that because, as I said earlier, what we are doing ; we hope to eventually write what we determine to be the real history of Birmingham. The only way that we can write that history is to get it from people like yourself. Thank you again for coming out. WASHINGTON: And the blessed part of it when I retired, they said I could choose any place in the city I wanted to go to dinner and Mr. Herman Hardy was assistant supervisor. He and his wife would escort me and my husband and I chose " ; The Club." ; HUNTLEY: Oh, so you went to The Club? WASHINGTON: Went to The Club and I was seated where I could look all over all the city and see the view. HUNTLEY: What year was that? WASHINGTON: That I retired? ' ; 77, October 17, 1977. HUNTLEY: Okay. So you have gone to The Club? WASHINGTON: Went to The Club. HUNTLEY: And got your reward? WASHINGTON: Right. That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: Good. Thank you again for coming out. We certainly appreciate it. WASHINGTON: I have enjoyed it. Because I said one day -- I was talking to Mr. Hardy yesterday. I told him I was coming. And he told me to -- that he wanted to know how I come out or whatever. And we had one Black there when it was broken down. Before it was broken down I think Robert Peterson wanted to go in the -- after segregation was broken down he wanted to go in the ticket office and they would allow him. He left here and went to Atlanta and they let him hold a office and he got angry ... This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RWashington1995.xml RWashington1995.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rosa Washington
Description
An account of the resource
Rosa Washington discusses living in ACIPCO and being involved with the NAACP. She worked at the Greyhound station when the Freedom Riders came through.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
19950414W
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Freedom Rides, 1961
NAACP
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1995-04-14
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/eba19d2b5a10a25c4ad5a477aecad8e6.png
dddacce92890b02a74663403a1df0f6e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Bob Corley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Rodney A. Max
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RMax2011.xml
Interview Keyword
This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are
included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
Discrimination
Birmingham (Ala.)
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.3 July 7, 2011 Rodney A. Max Interviewed on July 7, 2011 20110707M 1:05:36 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Alexandra Smith Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Discrimination Birmingham (Ala.) Rodney A. Max Bob Corley Video 1:|21(11)|44(5)|59(14)|78(10)|114(1)|131(1)|154(13)|171(9)|199(11)|228(3)|239(2)|253(12)|271(1)|284(10)|314(13)|331(3)|352(8)|374(8)|403(14)|420(9)|448(1)|477(9)|487(12)|512(10)|530(5)|555(5)|569(7)|585(6)|601(6)|615(13)|633(10)|653(4)|677(12)|690(15)|705(15)|720(9)|735(12)|763(9)|784(1)|801(5)|814(3)|832(3)|853(9)|867(3)|879(12)|904(3)|914(8)|935(12)|948(2)|966(3)|985(13)|1006(2)|1019(7)|1038(8)|1051(3)|1065(11)|1081(7)|1095(7)|1106(14)|1119(13)|1135(6)|1149(7)|1161(7)|1172(7)|1185(16) 0 https://youtu.be/PrioQo9vvDc YouTube video English 0 Introduction Okay, we're ready. Introduction to the interview Human rights advocacy 33.516200, -86.813870 18 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org The homepage of the BCRI 39 Educational Journey I came to Birmingham in 1972, after I got finished with my tour in the military. I came here for the purpose of going to law school at Cumberland School of Law. Max attended Cumberland Law School in Birmingham Cumberland School of Law ; Military service, Voluntary 33.466679, -86.791337 18 Cumberland School of Law 295 Discrimination After Law School And, I felt that I could be accepted into one of the major firms in town. I did not know anyone in town, and so, I guess from that standpoint, I could be a gamble. Max encountered religious discrimination in his job hunt after law school. Religious discrimination Judaism 18 496 Early Career It was a commercial litigation practice. Some domestic relations. Max began his career in a firm handling litigation and domestic relations. Litigation 18 541 B'nai B'rith Yes, I was affiliated with a temple, became a leader in an organization called the B'nai B'rith. B'nai B'rith gave Max the service opportunities he looked for while connecting him with a community B'nai B'rith. Anti-defamation League Judaism and social problems ; Leadership--Religious aspects 18 https://www.bnaibrith.org/ B'nai B'rith Homepage 675 Anti-Defamation League and Alabama State Advisory Committee to the United States Commission on Civil Rights My segue was through the Jewish community. Not that I ... I did it through the Jewish organizations, but in addition to B'nai B'rith, I was involved with the Anti-Defamation League, which has a regional office, southeastern office, in Atlanta, and was active there.Then, I guess it was the early 80s, when I was asked to become a member of, and became chairman of, the Alabama State Advisory Committee to the United States Commission on Civil Rights. That happened, I'm going to say, '80, '81, '82. Early 80s. B'nai B'rith. Anti-defamation League 18 https://www.adl.org/ Anti-defamation League Homepage 1102 The Community Affairs Committee of Operations (CAC) You mentioned the Community Affairs Committee of Operations, the CAC. How Rodney Max got involved with the CAC and became co-chair Community Affairs Committee Alabama. Legislature. Senate 1214 Running for Office No. I will tell you, when I was 39 years old, I said, " ; You know what? I'd like to help in the legislature." ; Max discusses his run and loss for legislature Political office Alabama. Legislature ; Mountain Brook (Ala.) 1323 Bar Association Alternatives to Dispute Resolution (ADR) committee Within six months, the Bar Association asked me to be a part of an ADR committee, alternatives to dispute resolution. At that time, you could try cases, you could appeal cases. The evolution of case mediation in the state of Alabama Alternatives to Dispute Resolution ; Mediation--United States Alabama State Bar Association 1420 Initial Involvement with SCLC and Rev. Abraham Woods ; Formation of Coalition Against Hate Crimes It's also along about this time, I think, in the early 90s, that you become more active with some fairly controversial issues, I suppose. Through the 90's, Max partnered with Rev. Abraham Woods to form a the Coalition Against Hate Crimes Coalition Against Hate Crimes Southern Christian Leadership Conference ; Woods, Abraham, 1928-2008 http://www.nationalsclc.org/ National SCLC Homepage 1672 Rev. Abraham Woods and the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Say a little bit more to me about your impressions about Abraham Woods. Reverend Abraham Woods, who was the leader of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference chapter here in Birmingham, that was founded by Fred Shuttlesworth Rev. Abraham Woods and Rodney A. Max formed a lasting relationship that produced many demonstrations against human rights violations. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Woods, Abraham, 1928-2008 1894 Rodney King Say a little bit about Rodney King, and what happened with your group, in respect to that. The Coalition Against Hate Crimes demonstrated against police brutality following the Rodney King verdict. Coalition Against Hate Crimes King, Rodney, 1965-2012 2493 Oklahoma City Bombing and the Birmingham Muslim Community We'd also talked about 1995, I think it was the Oklahoma City bombing. The Muslim community in Birmingham experiences violence and threats as a result of the Oklahoma City Bombing. Max, Woods and the Coalition organized against it. Coalition Against Hate Crimes Oklahoma City Federal Building Bombing, Oklahoma City, Okla., 1995 ; Religious discrimination 2728 Disgreement with Rev. Woods on LGBTQ Issues Surely, there must have been some time where you and Reverend Woods had a disagreement. Max and Woods disagreed about the approach to LGBTQ violence in Sylacauga Coalition Against Hate Crimes ; Discrimination--United States ; LGBT Woods, Abraham, 1928-2008 3084 Camp Birmingham and Peggy Sparks One of the things that you were engaged with here in Birmingham was something that's going to be known as Camp Birmingham, which I think still exists. Max and Sparks worked together to create Camp Birmingham in an effort to reduce gang activity in the Summer Camp Birmingham ; Sparks, Peggy Birmingham (Ala.) 3417 The Current State of Birmingham Birmingham was just like ... has the scars of it's past. Those scars aren't going to go away. They're still going to be scars, just like a scar if you get hurt on your body. How Max views Birmingham and its future Equality--United States Birmingham (Ala.) 3721 Unity Over Division I think, in a general way, I would say this: in this journey of trying to bring, and I'm talking about the last quarter of the 20th century, when we dealt with what happened in the 60s, now we're going into the end of the 20th century. People took the time, through Community Affairs Committee, through Leadership Birmingham, through NCCJ, they took the time to get to know one another, and break down the barriers that divide us. The necessity to unify to better Birmingham and remedy the division that has increased since 1963 Community Affairs Committee ; Equality--United States ; Leadership Birmingham National Conference for Community and Justice https://nccj.org/ NCCJ Homepage 3901 Conclusion Well Rod, thank you so much for this time and for sharing all these really important memories with us. Conclusion of the interview Oral History Attorney Rodney Max discusses his experiences with prejudice on his path to practicing law in Birmingham. He details his work ACMHR, Reverend Abraham Woods and the founding of Camp Birmingham. Speaker 1: Okay, we' ; re ready. CORLEY: Okay, all right. Rod, it' ; s good to see you, and appreciate you coming in to this, this evening. MAX: Sure. CORLEY: What I' ; d like to start with, is at the beginning, in a sense. MAX: Sure. CORLEY: Tell us a little bit about your own particular journey to Birmingham. I know you were not born here in Birmingham, but you have spent a good bit of your adult life in Birmingham. MAX: Right. Correct. Correct. MAX: I came to Birmingham in 1972, after I got finished with my tour in the military. I came here for the purpose of going to law school at Cumberland School of Law. With every intention of leaving and going down to Florida, which was my home, where my family was, in south Florida. Both legally, professionally, and civically, and personally, I fell in love with city. We decided to give it a try, and see if staying here after law school, instead of going back to my roots, was the thing to do. 30 years later, it was the thing to do. MAX: It' ; s been a wonderful journey. A lot of great people, a lot of good work in the community being done by others. I just teamed up with people to do my little share. CORLEY: You graduated from Cumberland Law School. MAX: Graduated from Cumberland in 1975. CORLEY: In ' ; 75. MAX: Correct. CORLEY: You came here in ' ; 72 to go to Cumberland. MAX: Right. CORLEY: What attracted you to Cumberland, to begin with? MAX: Cumberland was a school who looked to people who had done hard work, had been in leadership positions, and they de-emphasized the LSAT testing, which I wasn' ; t the best at. They looked more at your leadership capabilities. And so, I joined ... there were 200 people in a class, and there were other people who had been in the service. There had been people who were student body leaders, and people who were leaders in their profession. Some of them were younger, some of them were older. MAX: We went through the journey, the three year journey, together. Cumberland' ; s a wonderful school, not just teaching the fundamentals of the law, but teaching about the courtroom, teaching about how to take care of people, in addition to just the legal journey of case law. After that journey, I felt very prepared to get out there and do my thing, and chose Birmingham to do it in. CORLEY: I' ; m trying to remember, was Albert Brewer on the faculty? MAX: Albert Brewer was not on the faculty at that time. He joined the faculty thereafter, and has been an incredible asset to Cumberland, that' ; s for sure. CORLEY: Yeah, absolutely. CORLEY: You had been in the Army. MAX: Right. CORLEY: Did the Army pay for your education for law? MAX: You bet. Right. I was in the service from ' ; 70 to ' ; 72. I was stationed in a number of different forts, all in the United States, but the last base was at Fort Knox, Kentucky. I was a chaplain' ; s assistant there. By way of my military service, I came to Birmingham on the GI Bill. It put me through Cumberland. MAX: Yeah, they took care of ... not just the tuition and books, but also a stipend. My wife worked, at the time, as a teacher. Together, between the two, we were able to make it through law school. We had a child before I got out of law school. My wife had a child my junior year, and then started practicing law in ' ; 75. CORLEY: Let' ; s talk about that just for a minute. You got out of Cumberland, and you started ... you decided you were going to stay in Birmingham, rather than go back to Florida. MAX: Right. Right. CORLEY: You started putting out your resume, I guess. MAX: Correct. CORLEY: This is who I am, I want to work for your law firm. MAX: Right. CORLEY: You applied to a number of law firms in Birmingham, but you- MAX: I did. CORLEY: They weren' ; t returning your call? MAX: Well, that' ; s interesting. I did pretty well in law school, and thought that by putting my resume out with my credentials, both service and undergraduate, leadership positions I had been in, together with my ranking, that I could qualify- CORLEY: And, you ranked in? MAX: Yeah, I graduated number five in the class. CORLEY: Out of a class of about 200, huh? MAX: Yeah, about 200. MAX: And, I felt that I could be accepted into one of the major firms in town. I did not know anyone in town, and so, I guess from that standpoint, I could be a gamble. I had hoped that my resume and my background spoke for itself. But, I wasn' ; t getting any call backs. I didn' ; t understand it. MAX: I contacted someone ... I wandered over to the Jewish Community Center, and met a wonderful individual by the name of Seymour Marcus, who at that time, was the executive director of the Birmingham Jewish Federation. He inquired as to where I was soliciting, and said that I was soliciting the wrong firms, that I wasn' ; t going to get anywhere with the firms I was doing. CORLEY: Let me ask you about that. The wrong firms, and you weren' ; t going to get anywhere with the firms you had been applying to. What was he referring to? MAX: He very explicitly said, " ; You' ; re of a Jewish background, and you need to be soliciting Jewish firms, not non Jewish firms." ; MAX: I hadn' ; t put the two together, because I didn' ; t really think in those terms. I wasn' ; t active in the Jewish community at that time. With a last name of Max, who would know? Not that I was hiding it, by any means. It just was ... I was a lawyer, and I wanted to practice law, and I wanted to do good work. MAX: I did not realize that was the reason I was not getting it. His statement to me was that I need not be applying to these firms that I' ; m applying to, but rather, I needed to focus on ... I think there were three primary firms he had mentioned, maybe four, that were Jewish firms. CORLEY: When he said Jewish firms, these were firms with Jewish partners or they were founded by Jewish lawyers? MAX: Right. Yeah, there were non-Jewish people in the firm, but they were ... the founding members of the firm were of the Jewish faith. CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative). MAX: I took his lead on that, and very quickly, got accepted to a firm where Charles Denaburg was the head. Denaburg, Scholl, Myerson, and Ogle was the name of the firm. I ended up being with them for 19 years. CORLEY: Right. CORLEY: So, Ogle, for example, in the name of the firm. I' ; m assuming Ogle is not a Jewish name. MAX: Right, and neither was Scholl at the time. Charles Denaburg was the founder. [inaudible] Myerson was also one of the principle partners. It was a good marriage. CORLEY: Yeah, worked out well. MAX: And, it evolved. It did. CORLEY: You would say, in 1975, probably not a formal policy on the part of a law firm, but the mainstream law firms, the big corporate firms in Birmingham were not particularly interested hiring the number five person at Samford, at Cumberland? MAX: Right. That was certainly the result, and I was told that was the reason. Again, I didn' ; t associate it with that, but apparently, it was true that I was not accepted. I didn' ; t get any ask backs from anybody. I did quickly get accepted by those who were of the Jewish faith, and was able to work it through. CORLEY: You began your law career and started practicing law. What kind of law did you- MAX: It was a commercial litigation practice. Some domestic relations. CORLEY: So, not anything related, really, to civil rights? MAX: No. It was representing people who were in a business setting, dealing with companies. Whether it was construction, or whether it was business to business, or whether it was an individual, a consumer, with business. It was all ... it was not personal injury, wrongful death related. It was primarily business related. CORLEY: And you' ; re ... what about it? What' ; s your age about, at this point? ' ; 75 to ' ; 80? MAX: Let' ; s see, in ' ; 75, I think was about 27 years old. 27 years old. CORLEY: Okay, so you' ; re a young man. MAX: Yes, right. CORLEY: You' ; re living here in Birmingham. MAX: Right. CORLEY: Did you become more actively involved in the Jewish community? MAX: Yes, I was affiliated with a temple, became a leader in an organization called the B' ; nai B' ; rith. CORLEY: Yeah. Which temple? MAX: The temple at that time was Bethel. CORLEY: Yeah. MAX: That was a conservative temple. I had been brought up conservative. My wife was brought up reformed. We ended up, a couple years into that, moving over to Temple Emmanuel, which was more comfortable- CORLEY: Which is a reform. MAX: Reform, and more comfortable for my wife. Anything I' ; m going to get into, I want to assist and try to work with the leadership. I just don' ; t like being a member of anything. I like to help out. And so, became very active with Temple Emmanuel. I had been with Bethel, but I grew, and I worked through the leadership there, in ... I think it was the late 90s, ended up being the president of that temple. CORLEY: Being involved with B' ; nai B' ; rith, what would that entail? If you' ; re doing- this is extracurricular, right? MAX: Correct. Right. MAX: B' ; nai B' ; rith is a men' ; s service organization. A Jewish men' ; s service organization. Within about a year or two, I was asked to be president. I served as president for many years. We did work ... we tried to get out from beyond just doing things within the Jewish community, although we assisted much there. One most significant thing was during the Christmas period, on New Year' ; s ... on Christmas Eve, when firemen, police, other emergency personnel would have to otherwise be on duty, not that we could take their place and put out a fire, but we could assist in some of the clerical things. We could also assist by going around on Christmas Eve, taking donuts, coffee to people. MAX: We went all over the community to do our goodwill on Christmas Eve, when they' ; d otherwise want to be at home with their families. CORLEY: Yeah. CORLEY: So, here you are. You' ; re in Birmingham. How do you become involved in the larger community in Birmingham? MAX: My segue was through the Jewish community. Not that I ... I did it through the Jewish organizations, but in addition to B' ; nai B' ; rith, I was involved with the Anti-Defamation League, which has a regional office, southeastern office, in Atlanta, and was active there. MAX: Then, I guess it was the early 80s, when I was asked to become a member of, and became chairman of, the Alabama State Advisory Committee to the United States Commission on Civil Rights. That happened, I' ; m going to say, ' ; 80, ' ; 81, ' ; 82. Early 80s. CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative). MAX: I don' ; t know specifically how I got nominated, because I wasn' ; t a political person. I think it was through the Anti-Defamation League, that my name got brought up and accepted. When I say I joined and then became chairman, I was asked to be on the committee, and immediately, they said they need a chairman and asked if I would do it. I was going to be put in ... not only into the kitchen, but into the oven, and accepted the responsibility, and proceeded. CORLEY: Just real briefly, explain the civil rights commission. The United States Civil Rights Commission was created, I believe, in 1956 or 57, by legislation- MAX: That' ; s right. CORLEY: Civil rights legislation of that year, and was typically designed to investigate claims on the part of individuals, usually African Americans, who had experienced something relating to their voting rights, being denied their right to vote. MAX: That' ; s right. That' ; s right. MAX: And, there were some suspicion about the commission. That was during the Reagan years, and there was a Republican chair. I forget his name, I think maybe Pennington, who was getting a lot of heat for the failure of the commission to act. I chose, whatever there was, I didn' ; t want to sit on it. I wanted to act on it. MAX: The people on the commission, at that time, agreed. We had some investigative activities, as you said. It wasn' ; t just voting rights. Back then, there were issues of police brutality, and how the government was responding to that, particularly in the city of Montgomery. There had already been an investigation by the State Advisory Committee, that was being criticized by the people in Montgomery, because it was not balanced. MAX: I said, " ; Well then, tell you what, let' ; s get in there. Let' ; s redo it. Let' ; s balance it. But, we' ; re going to write the report." ; CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative). MAX: Over a number of weeks- CORLEY: So, this was shortly after you took over? MAX: Yeah. CORLEY: Okay. MAX: Within weeks. CORLEY: Does this ... I mean, this is an advisory committee. MAX: Right. CORLEY: Do you have any kind of staff? MAX: The staff isn' ; t local. They were in another city, but they were professionals who would follow our lead with the agendas. In other words, they' ; d ask, " ; Who do we need to have come before us?" ; MAX: And, we' ; d give them names of people who we thought were responsible. Responsible, responsive, to the issues. We would create an agenda, we' ; d have a public hearing. We attempted to be balanced, so that it wasn' ; t conservative or liberal. It just was. This being in Montgomery, we had to deal with the time. It was Emory Fulmer, who was the mayor. CORLEY: Mayor ... yeah, of Montgomery. MAX: There were a number of people around him, both in the African American community, and in the white community, and in the political community, and in the police community, and the city government, and in the civic community. We brought them all together, and we listened to what they had to say, and we finished the report. MAX: I committed to the mayor that he could see the report before it went public. We had issues over that. He didn' ; t necessarily like the report, but we went public. It was published, and it was taken to Washington. It was reported to the commission. We were to be the eyes and ears for the commission in our state, and I wanted them to hear what was going on. CORLEY: Does every state have an advisory committee? MAX: Yes, every state has one. Some are more active than others, some are less active. CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Does a lot depend on who the leadership of the committee is in each, as to how active they are? MAX: Oh, yeah. Some may, as a matter of form, meet once a year or once every other year. If you have issues, you need to address the issues. CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative). MAX: What happened when I joined, we immediately took care of the issues in Montgomery, and then we quickly made an investigation of what was going on in Birmingham. And, just civil rights, generally. We had yet another set of public hearings that probably took place within six months after Montgomery. And on, and on, and on with the various issues that take place here. CORLEY: So, this was sometime in 1982, 1983, when you- MAX: Right. That' ; s right. I say that, it was the Reagan administration. It was sometime in the early 80s that I got appointed. We followed through, during the course of the 80s and into the 90s. It was by that commission, and by my leadership there, that I got acquainted with people in the civil rights community, from Community Affairs, Community of Operation of Birmingham, and a number of the other organizations that we' ; re dealing with. CORLEY: Okay. CORLEY: Just to get a time frame, you' ; re starting as the chair of this Alabama state advisory committee. MAX: Right. CORLEY: You retain the chairmanship for how long? MAX: I believe that went on until 2000. CORLEY: Okay, so really, for a period of about 18 ... 17, 18 years- MAX: It may have been 15 to 18 years. CORLEY: Okay. MAX: As you said, ' ; 83 ... I thought, it may have even been ' ; 85. It was about 15 to 18 years that I was involved with the leadership. CORLEY: Okay. So, substantial amount of time. MAX: Yes. CORLEY: In the course of that, then, you began to obviously be acquainted with other people who were involved in civil rights activities. MAX: Yep, that' ; s right. CORLEY: You mentioned the Community Affairs Committee of Operations, the CAC. MAX: Correct. CORLEY: Tell me a little bit about how that happened. MAX: I was invited one morning ... of course, they met and probably still do, meet every Monday morning at 7:30. I was asked to come report as the chairman of the State Advisory Committee, to the United States Commission on Civil Rights, what was going on, what was being done. MAX: I reported. As a matter of fact, it was not just about Montgomery, but at that time, it was about Birmingham, and had some ideas to suggest what could be done to be more affirmative. The people in the leadership, what we called CAC, asked if I would join and continue with my involvement with CAC, which I did. CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative). MAX: That became a journey. I was honored by a co-chairmanship a few years down the road, and did work with CAC. CORLEY: You seem to always get involved and then, fairly quickly, get into leadership. MAX: Yeah. For me, it' ; s not so much an ego thing, that I need it, it' ; s just that somebody needs to speak out and at the right time. I don' ; t mind sitting back and letting others do it, but if somebody needs a volunteer, I don' ; t mind volunteering. I have a motto, it' ; s about others. I think it' ; s Hillel who said, " ; If I' ; m not for myself, who am I? But, if I' ; m not for others, what am I?" ; MAX: My motto is others. Others gets me to be there, and if I can help, I' ; ll be glad to help. If you don' ; t need my help, and if you have others, that' ; s fine. I' ; m not running for anything. I' ; m not trying to be the governor of the state. I just want to help out the community. CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative). CORLEY: You didn' ; t ever really see this as a stepping stone for some sort of political office? MAX: No. I will tell you, when I was 39 years old, I said, " ; You know what? I' ; d like to help in the legislature." ; MAX: And so, I ran as a Democrat in the Mountain Brook, Leeds, Vestavia area, and just thought I could be of service in the legislature. CORLEY: Okay. So, you' ; re 39. That would have been- MAX: I was about 39. I was born in ' ; 47, so ... CORLEY: Was that ' ; 86 maybe? MAX: Yeah, it was ' ; 86. That' ; s right. MAX: I ran. I did not succeed. I' ; ll never forget ... CORLEY: Who was your opponent? Do you remember? MAX: Slaughter. Bill Slaughter. Very fine gentleman, who did good for the district, and was a very bright individual. CORLEY: He' ; s a ... you were not from Birmingham. MAX: Right. CORLEY: He was from Birmingham. MAX: Oh, yeah. Yeah. MAX: And, it was really a district that was more Republican than it was Democrat. CORLEY: Yeah. MAX: I thought if people got to know me, and I got acquainted ... I knocked on 4000 doors, and got my signs up, but if you recall, that' ; s when Baxley and Graddock had their issues on the Democratic side. CORLEY: Oh, yes. MAX: As a matter of fact, Hunt got elected Governor, and anybody on the ticket that was Republican got elected, as well. Not to discredit Bill Slaughter for what he did, because he did a fine job, and was in the right place at the right time, but the swell was anti-Democratic, or anti-anybody that wasn' ; t Republican. CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative). MAX: The morning of the election, knowing I was going to get beat, I went to temple. I sat in the back pew, and I just said, " ; God, I don' ; t need to be anybody' ; s Governor or President. I just want to serve. Help me with a direction." ; MAX: Within six months, the Bar Association asked me to be a part of an ADR committee, alternatives to dispute resolution. At that time, you could try cases, you could appeal cases. There was arbitration was being discussed, but nobody was mediating cases. I got asked to form the mediation rules for the state of Alabama. I did that in 1988. In 1992, it got approved by the Supreme Court. MAX: Between ' ; 88 and ' ; 92, I began mediating. People were seeing the benefit of it, and how it was working to get cases settled fairly, in a good neutral, confidential form. Next thing I know, my schedule' ; s filled up with mediation, and I let go of my client base, and began mediating full-time by ' ; 92. CORLEY: Yeah. MAX: But, what was happening, what was evolving, was my ... professionally, I was moving into the area of mediation. Civically, I was taking those same concepts, interest based resolution, as opposed to rights based, and trying to apply it to the many things that were going on in the community. MAX: In fact, talked to people about how mediation could be used in the public sector, or in the local sector. CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative). MAX: And, tried to apply it in a number of different instances. That merged the practice together with the civic. CORLEY: Yeah. CORLEY: It' ; s also along about this time, I think, in the early 90s, that you become more active with some fairly controversial issues, I suppose. MAX: Right. CORLEY: Or, get more involved with Civil Rights more directly. MAX: Correct. CORLEY: In particular, with Reverend Abraham Woods and with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. MAX: Right. MAX: By the early 90s, and I think it was ' ; 92, there were a series of events that took place, and I then was involved with the leadership of Community Affairs Committee, CAC, of operation of Birmingham, and would attend different functions. The one that comes to mind, initially, was when Benny Rembert, an African American who was temporarily not living at home. Some would say homeless, but was over by Morris Avenue, and was beat to death by individuals who were alleged to be skinheads. MAX: As a result of that murder, many of the civic leaders in the area of civil rights, met in the Fourth Avenue Presbyterian Church to express their outrage over this, civically. CORLEY: That' ; s First Presbyterian, which is located on Fourth Avenue? MAX: Correct, First Presbyterian. That' ; s right. Exactly. MAX: Reverend Woods was there, Abraham Woods. A number of the other leaders, not just from the Civil Rights end, but just from the civic community. I remember Operation New Birmingham was there. I remember Elise Penfield was a member of this. We all made our statements about the issue. MAX: When the cameras were finished, and the lights of the cameras were off- CORLEY: So, you were there speaking for CAC? MAX: That' ; s right. CORLEY: Yeah. MAX: The statement was made, was that all we' ; re going, is make statements? That was made by Reverend Woods. I said, " ; Reverend Woods, no. We need to do more than that." ; MAX: He goes, " ; Well, you can' ; t just talk the talk. You' ; ve got to walk the walk." ; MAX: I said, " ; You' ; re right. Why don' ; t we meet in my office on Sunday night, after your church services are over? Let' ; s see if we can quickly put together some sort of organizational scheme to help fight against hate crimes." ; MAX: Which is what that was. We met, and we organized, and we established the Coalition Against Hate Crimes, and had members from all the different organizations that were civically oriented, that were civil rights oriented, joined it. CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative). MAX: It wasn' ; t to take the place of any organization. You had very active NCCJ, you had CAC, you had Leadership Birmingham. We just became a coalition of all those organizations, and we did not need a large budget, but we needed a budget enough to handle things. The question was, okay, what do we next? MAX: I made a personal commitment to Reverend Woods, and that personal commitment was that he would never stand alone when there was ever an issue involving African Americans, that it was believed that when he would stand by himself, it would look like it was just his thing. It was not just his thing, it was the community thing. And so, my commitment was I would be there, or someone else in my place, would be there to stand with him. MAX: He and I not only formed a relationship, but a friendship and a partnership. Then, there was a series of other events that led to our partnership formulating even beyond that, but that was the beginning of it. CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative). CORLEY: Say a little bit more to me about your impressions about Abraham Woods. Reverend Abraham Woods, who was the leader of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference chapter here in Birmingham, that was founded by Fred Shuttlesworth- MAX: Right. CORLEY: The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. Here you are, you' ; re a Jewish lawyer. Here' ; s Reverend Woods. You' ; re white, he' ; s black. You refer to this friendship. MAX: Well, you know ... because of my profession, which is all encompassing, I didn' ; t have time to make a lot of personal friends. Between my professional work and my civic work, and my family, it was pretty much full-time. MAX: Through my civic work, I saw this particular need to join hands with him. I saw that he was out there, and that I thought that it needed some tempering. Not to be there with him every day, but when the events came up. The commitment of the coalition, and at the time, I was a co-chair with him, we were co-chairs together, that we would stand together when things would come up. MAX: Reverend Woods was a very intense individual, a great family man, did wonderful things for his family, did wonderful things for his church. In the civic community, the Civil Rights community, he was seen as the spokesman. When you' ; re the spokesman, you take positions. He wasn' ; t always necessarily balanced with his position, he always took a side that was representative of his congregation, his community, his family, and his very strong background. He marched with Reverend King and was involved with that, and he continued that. He was very loyal to that. MAX: When someone' ; s loyal to that, whether you' ; re a Democrat, Republican, conservative, liberal, when you' ; re loyal to your cause, you don' ; t abandon it. I never asked him to abandon it, I just asked him to open up to the fact that there were other sides and other things that we could do, other than to be staunch, and perhaps militaristic, in our approach to things. CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative). MAX: It evolved over time, that the question for Reverend Woods, I believe, was could he trust me? And, could he trust somebody saying that they' ; ll stand up with him, and what would happen when the first incident would occur? Would you be there with me? That was the test of time. CORLEY: There' ; s some other things that begin to happen right around that same time. MAX: Right. CORLEY: I think a lot of people maybe think that, in Birmingham, or in Alabama, or even in the country, after the 1960s, after the Civil Rights Movement, racial issues receded into the background, that there weren' ; t a lot of things that ... the Klan, for example, was very active during the 1960s, and involved in a lot of violent activities in the 1960s. MAX: Right. CORLEY: What you discovered, really, was that these issues didn' ; t just go away, even though it' ; s maybe 30 years on, 25 years later. These issues are still emerging. CORLEY: For example, 1992, I think it was, the Rodney King verdict came down in Los Angeles. MAX: That' ; s right. CORLEY: Say a little bit about Rodney King, and what happened with your group, in respect to that. MAX: Sure. MAX: Well, it was coincidentally just after we formed the coalition. We did what we did in forming it, and we began to organize it. Then sometime in the spring, I believe of ' ; 92, is the Rodney King verdict. And, all over the country- CORLEY: Rodney King, just real quickly- MAX: Sure. CORLEY: What happened? MAX: He was an African American in Los Angeles, I believe it was, who had gotten accosted by, beaten up by police. The issue was that of brutality. CORLEY: For which Birmingham had a great deal of history, back in the- MAX: Right. Very sensitive here in Birmingham, and all over Alabama. That' ; s one of the things I was dealing with Montgomery. CORLEY: Same thing, police violence. MAX: Brutality of police. MAX: And, here it was. It was on video, and it appeared to the public that there was no question that these police officers were guilty of beating him up. And yet, that was an allegation. They were the accused. It was up to a jury of his peers, meaning the peers of Rodney ... of the police officers, to judge whether they were guilty or not. Well, the verdict came down not guilty, which is part of our justice system. The public said, " ; How could that be?" ; MAX: If that' ; s our justice system, then the justice system isn' ; t working. In many cities, especially the African American community, got up in arms. If you look at history for the moment of that verdict, and within 24, 48 hours of that, you' ; ll see that several cities had a lot of destruction. The day of that verdict, I wasn' ; t even aware of it. I was doing legal work in Montgomery, some private matter that I was involved in depositions. I got a call that I needed to give Reverend Woods a call, because indeed the SCLC was needing to march. MAX: This was when I talked earlier about when you' ; re representing a group, you' ; ve got to do things. Well, he felt, and the people of the members of the SCLC felt they could not sit back. They had to get up. If they didn' ; t, they were not acting responsibly, and they needed to march in Birmingham. I was concerned, and this was just personal, I was concerned that if they did that, there would be problems, and we' ; d end up with what happened in other cities. MAX: I' ; m believing that was either a Wednesday night ... I think it was a Wednesday, because they had church at Reverend Woods' ; church. I said, " ; Reverend Woods, do me a favor. I' ; m coming to your church. Don' ; t organize the march until I have a chance to talk to you." ; MAX: He was kind enough to wait, and he had a group of people there, and the question was, " ; Why not?" ; MAX: My answer was that if all they do is march, and it' ; s an African American SCLC march, how' ; s it going to appear, in terms of the public? Wouldn' ; t it be better for us to get our coalition together, and for there to be a march. Yes, we' ; ll march, but let' ; s make it whites and blacks. Let' ; s have the business community a part of it. They didn' ; t think the business community would join. But I said, " ; That' ; s my job. I' ; ll tell you what we' ; ll do. Give me the weekend, and we' ; ll put together that march at 5:00. We' ; ve got to get a permit, anyway. Why don' ; t we do this on Monday night?" ; MAX: Without getting into all the details, we marched on Monday night. For the first time, I marched. I had marched for Jewish causes, but I hadn' ; t marched for civil rights causes in Birmingham. But, I marched together with at least 500 other people. White, black, blue collar, white collar. There were probably more people wearing white shirts and ties in that march than there ever had been before. If you turned around and looked, and I was arm in arm with Reverend Woods at the time, look Reverend Woods. Look who we brought. MAX: It was really a victory for the community. It was a victory for the trust between the races. It was a beginning of this relationship of I' ; ll never let you stand up by yourself. I' ; ll be with you, if you' ; ll be with me. CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative). MAX: Obviously, there are, at times, Jewish issue or there may be other minority issues that may arise. Let' ; s just stand up together, and we can be stronger that way. This was the epitome of that. And so, it worked. CORLEY: Yeah. You had a march to protest the Rodney King verdict? MAX: It was as much to say that police need to be accountable, that things happen in community, and there' ; s law enforcement have their rights and prerogatives, but citizens have rights and their prerogatives. They should not be discriminated against in doing the police officer work they have to, be balanced. MAX: We got police officials. One in particular is Johnny Johnson, who was a police officer at the time. I don' ; t know if he was the chief. He became the chief. But, he was active- CORLEY: Just for the record, Johnny Johnson, as you' ; ve mentioned, does become police chief. MAX: That' ; s right. CORLEY: Becomes the first African American police chief in Birmingham. MAX: That' ; s right. CORLEY: Yeah. MAX: It was a bringing together of even that interest. Here was the police, helping support the march, not being against the march, which is what the 60s was about. And so, it was a big beginning. CORLEY: Yeah. CORLEY: Again, not too long after that, maybe another year or two- MAX: Right. CORLEY: There' ; s an event where the Ku Klux Klan announces that they want to have a rally to rededicate, I think, the Confederate memorial in Jefferson County, at the courthouse, excuse me, downtown Birmingham, at Lynn Park. MAX: Correct. That' ; s right. That' ; s exactly right. They wanted to do that on a Saturday. While they have a right to march, it was believed that is not what our community stands for. CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative). They applied for a parade permit, just like you had for the Rodney King- MAX: That' ; s right. CORLEY: Right. MAX: And, it got accepted. The question was, A, do we protest their right or what do we do? I said, " ; Well, they have a right. We have a right, also. Why don' ; t we create a march of our own, but let' ; s work with the police. Let' ; s work with the government. Let' ; s work to do it in a way that is respectful." ; MAX: While there were some in the community that wanted to be there at the same time and confront the Klan, and basically have a confrontation, we chose to meet, had a number of debates over how to handle this. The Klan wasn' ; t even involved in those discussions. We had members of the community, the African American community, the civic community, the law enforcement community. How can we do this respectfully? CORLEY: And again, Reverend Woods was a part of that? MAX: Right. CORLEY: Okay. MAX: And, felt that there needed to be some form of confrontation. The better judgment was, why don' ; t we let law enforcement handle the Klan. Let' ; s trust, at this point, Johnny Johnson, I think, is the chief of police. Let' ; s trust the police to handle that, but let' ; s be there shortly thereafter. Let the police clear them out, and they do their thing, and the Klan does their thing in the morning. Let' ; s us rededicate the park to the people of the community who are for the diversity of the community. MAX: Bottom line was, they agreed with that. Arm in arm, we started at ... I think we started at 16th Street. We had a number of speeches at 16th Street around 3:00, just like there had been ... to go back that morning, I think at 9:00, the Klan did their thing, in a very, very effective and efficient way. The police monitored that. We encouraged people not to go there. We encouraged people to stay out of downtown. Basically, they talked to themselves, with the monitoring of a helicopter, and everything else was very close on top. You probably couldn' ; t even hear what they were saying. And, they did their thing, left, and 2:00 or 3:00, we all met. MAX: We met at 16th Street. We had people from all races, religions, colors. It was just wonderful. There were a large gathering, where people were told out of the morning, they came back in the afternoon. We not only gave only the speeches, but we marched, and we marched to the park. We rededicated the park to the good people of Birmingham who promote diversity. Again, another standing up together with, not only just Reverend Woods and SCLC, but all the people in leadership. Birmingham was very vibrant at the time, and a number of the civic leaders. CORLEY: We' ; d also talked about 1995, I think it was the Oklahoma City bombing. MAX: Right, right. That' ; s right. CORLEY: That occurred at the Murrah Building there, federal building in Oklahoma City. MAX: Right. Yes. CORLEY: Again, there were a lot of incidents here or there were concerns about incidents here. Tell me about that. MAX: That' ; s right. MAX: When the Oklahoma bombing occurred, within 24 hours, we of the coalition were getting contacted by individuals in the Muslim community, that they were being threatened. The statement was made that for every person who was killed in the federal courthouse in Oklahoma, there would be a Muslim killed in our community. We said, " ; That' ; s nonsense. But tell you what, let' ; s not take light of this." ; MAX: Nonsense not that they weren' ; t right, but nonsense for someone to react that way. We didn' ; t even know who did it at the time. CORLEY: But, the assumption was it was somebody who was a terrorist, number one. MAX: That' ; s right. Right. CORLEY: But, also probably Muslim. MAX: That' ; s correct. MAX: And, not knowing who it was, we just felt it was appropriate to let law enforcement, again, do their thing. But, let' ; s not overreact. In the meantime, let' ; s ... some public statement needs to be made for the Muslim community, who was attempting to just coexist in the Birmingham community. MAX: It was a wonderful lesson for me, because not even knowing who the individual was, I called Reverend Woods, he agreed, let' ; s come ... he came to my office, I think it was in the middle of a mediation. I said, " ; Let' ; s come to my office and we' ; ll make a public state. You and I, and this Muslim leadership, who I didn' ; t even know who they were, and let' ; s make a statement of let law enforcement do their thing, let' ; s stand together and let' ; s not overreact." ; MAX: We arranged this for sometime in the morning, maybe it was 11:00. Reverend Woods comes in and I' ; m anticipating someone from the Muslim community, in my mind, who am I going to see? In walks this six foot four, blonde hair, blue eyed individual who happened to be in the Muslim community, that was part of the leadership. I was ... I learned my own lesson of pre-judging, because that wasn' ; t who I thought was going to walk in the door. We formed a very good relationship with him. We spoke out about the calm that needed to be happening. Within 48 hours, McVeigh, not of a Muslim faith, but a white Anglo Saxon, was accused at that time of doing the crime, later convicted. MAX: The good news was, there was peace in our community and nothing happened. Again, it was standing up in what could have been a thread of violence, a hate crime, against someone because of their religion. It was appropriate for someone of the Jewish faith, and the Christian faith, to stand with someone of the Muslim faith, and we did. And, we did. CORLEY: I' ; m hearing you tell these stories where just about every time there was some incident, not necessarily here in Birmingham- MAX: Right. CORLEY: But, even if it was somewhere else, you worked very closely with Reverend Woods. MAX: Right. CORLEY: Under the rubric of this coalition against hate crimes. MAX: Right. CORLEY: And, stood for non-violence, stood for respect, and so forth. MAX: Right. CORLEY: Surely, there must have been some time where you and Reverend Woods had a disagreement. MAX: Well, yeah, his approach was to be relatively impulsive about all of these things. Mine was a little more deliberate and more inclusive. There did come a time when we had another hate crime that I asked him to stand up for, and that was a little more difficult for him. It occurred when a male individual, I think it was Sylacauga, was beaten to death because he happened to be gay. MAX: The coalition got a call from one of the prominent members of our community, saying that the gay, lesbian, transvestite, et cetera, members of the community were very concerned that there would be copy cat crimes committed in our community, and that somebody needed to speak out. It sounded like it was a reasonable request. I brought the coalition together, called Reverend Woods, and that was somewhat problematic for Reverend Woods. By way of his religious background, he had difficulty dealing with that issue. But, I told him the coalition stood for standing up for minorities, and I believed the gay, lesbian, transvestite, et cetera community was in need of protection, and we needed to stand up. MAX: There was an organized ... it had already been organized for there to be a meeting at the church in Birmingham, the Metropolitan Church on First Avenue North. I don' ; t honestly recall the correct name. CORLEY: Yeah, I think it' ; s actually ... I think it' ; s called the Metropolitan Community Church. MAX: Yes, Metropolitan Community Church. Correct. CORLEY: I think. Yeah, it was on First Avenue North, out near Woodlawn. MAX: That' ; s exactly right. MAX: They were having a meeting on Tuesday night to speak out against this. What was interesting was, there was protesters outside of that church against gay and lesbian issues. But, we went. The coalition went, many of the organizations went. I had a board meeting at my temple that night, but I called off the board meeting to attend. Reverend Woods did not attend, but the coalition attended. That was the thing, I wasn' ; t going to let the coalition not be a part of standing up. MAX: For me, it was a very gratifying night of seeing a room full, not just all the pews in the church, but in the aisles and sitting right by the podium, that were just ... a lot of people white collar, blue collar, of different races, who had an interest in gay and lesbian issues. We spoke out, that they too need the respect of others in the community, and let' ; s judge people based on their character, not just their color and their religion, but their own personal creed. MAX: It was a wonderful evening of coming together. I was proud of the coalition, I was proud of the many leaders. Bob, you were one of those who was brave enough to do that. It was believed to be the right thing to do, and I was just proud of those who had attended to speak out, because it wasn' ; t a popular thing to do, obviously. We did it, and I think both the community was better for it, the coalition was stronger for it, and it was the right thing to do. CORLEY: Just as a note, I think the group that was there to protest the meeting that night, is Reverend Ralph Phelps, and the Westboro Baptist Church- MAX: Oh, is that right? CORLEY: Which is mostly his family, or the members. They still are protesting at a lot of ... there was just a Supreme Court case relating to this, where they' ; ve been protesting at funerals of returning veterans. People who were killed in Afghanistan and Iraq, and basically saying the deaths of these people are caused by the fact that God hates gays and hates the fact that the United States have been open to gays, and so forth. MAX: Is that right? CORLEY: And so ... yeah, one of the families sued- MAX: Oh, is that right? CORLEY: The church, and the Supreme Court recently upheld that they had the right to protest. MAX: I see. I didn' ; t realize they were still active, but yes, that' ; s exactly right. I remember going in with their protesting, and leaving with their protesting. It was just ... when people can come together, and you can get to know people, based upon what they' ; re trying to achieve and not just on the prejudices, like what happened with the Muslim issue, with the bombing in Oklahoma, and then again with this issue. MAX: There are just some wonderful people who happen to be of a gay persuasion, or a lesbian persuasion, that are really great contributors to this community. I see so much potential here in Birmingham to use our past for future good, and that was one of them. MAX: I' ; ve left the community. I' ; ve turned my books and records and everything I had with the coalition over to the leadership at that time. I don' ; t know, at this moment, who' ; s carrying on that mission. There' ; s just a lot of good things done for adults, for children. It' ; s a better community because of those kinds of things. CORLEY: One other activity I know you were involved with, and we' ; re down to about maybe 10 minutes left. MAX: Sure. CORLEY: One of the things that you were engaged with here in Birmingham was something that' ; s going to be known as Camp Birmingham, which I think still exists. MAX: Right. CORLEY: Tell us how that started. MAX: I was active with the Community Affairs Committee. Matter of fact, Peggy Sparks may have been a co-chair with me. I got to know Peggy ... and this is, again, where you get to know people and you find the good in them, and you find what their visions are. We had an issue in Birmingham. This was probably in the late 80s. That issue was gangs. The issue was, what do we do with kids to get them off the street in the summer? MAX: This was a coming together of the chamber, a coming together of Operation Birmingham, of Community Affairs Committee, and a number of other organizations. We sat and we said, first of all, what' ; s the problem? And then, how do we approach the problem? What we realized was, there were a lot of kids who had nothing to do in the summer. To an extent, you can' ; t blame kids for getting into mischief when they have nothing to do. Their idle. So, how can we activate them? MAX: The kids that can afford to go to camp, they' ; re involved. The kids who can' ; t afford to go to camp, they have nothing to do. The kids who don' ; t have a job, what do they do? I asked this question. I said, " ; What' ; s going on in the schools during the summer? It' ; s summer vacation. Are the schools active? No? How many schools do we have in Birmingham?" ; MAX: We identified- there were a number of schools, but we identified 10 schools. I said, " ; Why don' ; t we take these schools and why don' ; t we raise both public money and private money, and create a partnership." ; MAX: Let' ; s raise about ... and, we came up with, and with Peggy' ; s help, a budget of about $200000. CORLEY: Wow. MAX: Let' ; s employ teenagers who wouldn' ; t otherwise be able to get a job. In fact, we not only employ them, but more specifically, we had them go through an interview process. We had them dress up in coats and ties, and write out a resume. We had them interview with some of the officials, so that they could be qualified, or not, for these jobs. We gave them an experience on how to apply for a job. MAX: We chose, for each camp, we had ... I think it was 10, or probably more than 10, maybe 20 counselors. We had camp counselors. They were ages from 16 to 18 or 19. We had directors who were at UAB, that were getting credit for what they were doing. We had counselors, directors, and then we ... they made minimum wage, but they earned a day' ; s living, a week' ; s living, during the summer. MAX: We brought to the camp, kids who, for $25 as a stipend, we would fund the rest of their camp. They would pay $25 and they would get a camp experience. And so, hundreds of kids came out from the different communities. The reason we had these camps all over the city, parents couldn' ; t necessarily drive their kids over to a camp, so we tried to put it in the community. Sure enough, they flocked to these camps. MAX: These camps were not only for having fun, but the camps were for educational purposes. We had reading programs, we had academic bowls. Yeah, we had the athletic contest. We would meet at the end of the camp, over at UAB, and certain camps got rewarded for what they ... we rewarded the corporate sector for their participation, named camps after those who gave a large stipend to support the came. MAX: Camp Birmingham became an activity that inner-city kids could enjoy during the summer, and we employed kids to get off the street, and you know what? The gang problem got to be put to bed. We didn' ; t hear ... I' ; m not saying they were gone, but we certainly didn' ; t hear of the mischief that we were experiencing before. MAX: That was just ... the relationship like we talked about with Reverend Woods, the relationship I formed with Peggy Sparks was an everlasting one, just a wonderful person. She brought together a team of people from the Birmingham City Schools and community education to participate, and they' ; re carrying it on to this day. CORLEY: Yeah. Let me ask you to give ... you' ; ve had an interesting perspective. You came here as a law student, 1972, less than 10 years after 1963 when Birmingham started to change. MAX: Right. CORLEY: We' ; re coming up on ... this 2011, so we' ; ll be coming up in a few years to 2013, 50th anniversary of 1963 major events. A good bit of that time, of that 50 year period, you' ; ve been in this community. You' ; ve observed this community. What are your observations about Birmingham, and the ways it has changed, and the ways it hasn' ; t? MAX: Birmingham was just like ... has the scars of it' ; s past. Those scars aren' ; t going to go away. They' ; re still going to be scars, just like a scar if you get hurt on your body. But, that doesn' ; t mean you' ; re going to be disabled, that doesn' ; t mean you can' ; t function and be productive, just because you' ; ve had an injury. And, the community suffered an injury back then. MAX: Interestingly, today, I worked with a young lady who is paralyzed from the waist down. She' ; s going to college now, and trying to be something, even though she' ; s limited to her wheelchair. Just like Birmingham was limited by way of what happened in the 60s, we' ; ve become a better community as a result of it. As long as people don' ; t just look back historically, either to the 60s or to the last quarter of the 20th century. We did some great things. For me, it' ; s always a team effort. We, you, Peggy Sparks, Reverend Woods, Elise Penfield, and so many others. And, the Jewish community, the Christian community, the white community, the black community, and the business community, corporate sector, really stepped up to the plate. MAX: Not only in Camp Birmingham, as I talked about, but in many other areas. We all need to continue that journey. The sign out front of Ingram Park, if I understand it correct, says " ; From revolution to reconciliation." ; MAX: Well, now, we need to put reconciliation in big letters. Not only we learn and actively pursue reconciliation, but we need to export it, and even bring it to Birmingham. We' ; ve done it by that beautiful institute that we' ; ve got. It' ; s not just a museum, it' ; s a living creation. In my view, not just for people to come see, to see the history, but for people to be engaged by it. I would love to see the idea of other communities learn from our experiences, learn as we do with operation ... with Leadership Birmingham, where you get bankers, and lawyers, and doctors, and people in education, and people in so many different fields, coming together and learning about each other, and going back off into the community after they finish their venture with a leadership program, go out and be community together. MAX: I think we can do that in Birmingham. I think that can be done at the Civil Rights Institute. I think that can be done on the holy ground of A.G Gaston, where A.G. Gaston Motel was, on one side and 16th Street on the other side, and the institute right in the middle. I think we can bring people to this community, not just from Birmingham and Alabama, but from many other borders where people may be in conflict, and say, " ; Why don' ; t you come to Birmingham and let us help you, not to solve your problem, but to help you learn how to get to know one another, how we dealt with our scars and become a better community, and maybe you can do the same." ; CORLEY: You would see Birmingham as a role model for how issues of conflict can be dealt with? MAX: Absolutely. A role model that now only says, see our example, but let us help you find ways to get to know people. How does Rod Max get to know Reverend Abraham Woods? How does a lawyer get to work with an educator and create a Camp Birmingham? How can bankers work with the labor? How does the lawyer work with the doctor? Typically, people would say, " ; Those people are in conflict. Those people can' ; t work together." ; MAX: In truth, they can. Why can' ; t they do that in another city in the United States? Why can' ; t they do that between Israel and Palestine? Not politically, but from their interests. Interest based relationships. It would appear to me that the banker, and the doctor, and the lawyer, and the business person, who are looking to make a better living, not just for themselves and their families, but for their community, ought to have some commonality. Maybe we can help people find that commonality. MAX: I think that' ; s something that' ; s yet to be achieved. I see the institute and the good leaders like yourself, being able to use Birmingham, and it' ; s past, to do that. CORLEY: Is there anything else, in the very brief amount of time we' ; ve got left, anything else that you think is important, you' ; ve observed, things that you' ; ve noticed, that we haven' ; t talked about? Things that happened between 1963 and the current period, that have been, you think, significant? MAX: I think, in a general way, I would say this: in this journey of trying to bring, and I' ; m talking about the last quarter of the 20th century, when we dealt with what happened in the 60s, now we' ; re going into the end of the 20th century. People took the time, through Community Affairs Committee, through Leadership Birmingham, through NCCJ, they took the time to get to know one another, and break down the barriers that divide us. MAX: I believe that it requires two things. As I said initially, I wasn' ; t going to change Reverend Woods, from the standpoint of him not being a staunch advocate for what he stood for. I' ; ll give you a quick example. Temple Emmanuel on ... what is it, 21st Street and Highland Avenue, had an issue. They had a building that was built in the early 1900s. They had an opportunity to abandon that building and move to the suburbs, perhaps closer to where more of the Jewish community was. The leadership of our temple, and I just had the privilege of being the president at the time, said no. We' ; re not leaving Birmingham. MAX: Birmingham consisted of a minority in the Jewish community. We were about 5500, men, women, and children. There are only 700 members of Temple Emmanuel. Instead of going back into a suburb, let' ; s create, let' ; s recreate, let' ; s renovate the building that was built in the early 1900s. Let people know we' ; re here, respect who we are, be active in the community, and work with community, not to isolate ourselves from the community. MAX: The decision was made to spend sufficient dollars to renovate a very old building and be a vibrant part of Birmingham, not to go to the suburbs and run from Birmingham. The lesson of that, and the overall lesson is, let' ; s respect who we are. Let' ; s respect our differences. How do we find the commonalities that allow us to make for better community? Yes, I' ; m Jewish. Yes, I' ; m a lawyer. That doesn' ; t mean I can' ; t work with someone from the Christian community, from the medical community, or from the business community, to make for a better community. MAX: I can respect you, and you can respect me. But, part of it is, getting to know one another. Last thing is, teaching that to our children, teaching that to the next generation, to get them from hiding behind their walls, and what would otherwise be their ghetto, and come out. I think we make a better community that way. CORLEY: Well Rod, thank you so much for this time and for sharing all these really important memories with us. MAX: Thank you. I appreciate that. CORLEY: We really appreciate everything you' ; ve done, the contributions you' ; ve made to this community, too. MAX: Well, thank you. CORLEY: Thanks very much. MAX: It' ; s always a team effort. It is always a team effort. If you can be a part of that team, you' ; ve been enriched by it. Thanks for allowing me to share with you. CORLEY: Sure. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RMax2011.xml RMax2011.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rodney A. Max
Description
An account of the resource
Attorney Rodney Max discusses his experiences with prejudice on his path to practicing law in Birmingham. He details his work ACMHR, Reverend Abraham Woods and the founding of Camp Birmingham.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
20110707M
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham
Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-07-07
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/a6ca6b57a352a50ba7d9bb58d1e74d5d.jpg
8e63a217caf317c7c7b68d73d469c60b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Betty Hanson
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Robert Hughes
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RHughes1995.xml
Interview Keyword
This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are
included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
Alabama Council on Human Relations
Lucy, Autherine, 1930-
Ku Klux Klan (1915- )
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 June 23, 1995 Rev. Robert Hughes 19950623HR 1:20:27 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Emily Reynolds Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 Alabama Council on Human Relations Lucy, Autherine, 1930- Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) Robert Hughes Betty Hanson Video 1:|16(5)|37(9)|54(6)|71(12)|85(7)|98(9)|106(16)|120(5)|128(15)|137(12)|145(2)|152(3)|167(10)|182(6)|196(4)|217(14)|227(6)|235(11)|246(5)|261(10)|278(1)|289(1)|305(7)|328(5)|338(2)|346(11)|374(9)|386(15)|401(3)|413(6)|431(10)|443(7)|454(9)|471(11)|481(2)|491(2)|502(4)|513(10)|522(1)|539(2)|547(11)|561(1)|580(6)|595(5)|610(10)|620(17)|632(5)|640(9)|652(15)|663(4)|673(1)|682(1)|694(14)|704(14)|714(11)|727(1)|743(4)|752(10)|763(9)|773(9)|782(2)|793(12)|804(4)|814(11)|824(5)|836(9)|848(6)|864(9)|873(5)|884(8)|895(1)|917(5)|930(2)|937(10)|948(9)|963(5)|973(9)|982(2)|993(11)|1000(9) 0 https://youtu.be/uOVVo9Vs4To YouTube video English 0 Interview Introduction Bob, give your full name and where you are now. Introduction to interview with Rev. Robert Hughes. Methodist Church--Clergy--Biography 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 33 Seattle Depart. of Justice Work But, prior to that, you were doing some interesting work in Seattle, just a brief statement before we get to the Alabama history. Rev. Hughes shares a brief statement about his community-based work for the U.S. Department of Justice. United States--Race relations United States. Department of Justice 59 Early Work as Methodist Minister So you were trained as a minister, however, and ordained as a Methodist minister? Rev. Hughes discusses his early work as a Methodist minister in Alabama, and the racial/political climate during the time. Alabama State College ; Southern Regional Council ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) Alabama Council on Human Relations ; United States--Race relations 179 Montgomery and the Alabama Council on Human Relations When you came to Montgomery, you agreed to come and start the Alabama Council on Human Relations, is that correct? Rev. Hughes describes his early work in support of the Alabama Council on Human Relations and its office in Montgomery, Alabama. Abernathy, Ralph, 1926-1990 ; African Americans--Segregation ; Anacortes Lutheran Church ; Gretz, Bob ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Montgomery County (Ala.) ; Nixon, E.D. ; Parks, Rosa, 1913-2005 ; Southern Baptist Convention African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Alabama Council on Human Relations ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) 886 Clergy and Community Response to Desegregation Efforts The boycott, the bus protest as we called it in that time, to avoid, for legal purposes, that was a year long event that culminated in the final decision of the Supreme Court. Rev. Hughes discusses the intersection of his ministry work and civil rights work, and describes the reaction of his community. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Methodist Church (U.S.). Alabama Conference ; Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 ; Rockford (Ala.) African Americans--Segregation ; Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) 1384 Parents and Family History in Alabama Let's go back to how your attitudes even arose and, then, we'll zip forward and talk more about what happened when you were here in Birmingham and your involvement in the Klan's opposition to you, and so forth. But the Hughes family founded Gadsden. Rev. Hughes shares about his family background, his parents' education and employment, and how his family influenced his life. Education--Southern States ; Forrest, Nathan Bedford, 1821-1877 ; Iron and steel workers--United States ; Sampson, Emma ; Slavery--United States ; Streight, Abel D. ; United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 ; University of Alabama Gadsden (Ala.) ; Methodist Church--United States--Clergy--Biography ; Southern States--Genealogy 1794 Education, Gap-Year, and Decision to Join Ministry You went to the University of Alabama and did undergraduate work, didn't you? Rev. Hughes describes his path to ministry, which included studying at the University of Alabama, working at the United Nations, and taking a gap year to work with and organize on behalf of ship crew laborers in New York. Gadsden (Ala.) ; Jones, E. Stanley (Eli Stanley), 1884-1973 ; Merchant mariners--Accommodations on shipboard ; New York Harbor (N.Y. and N.J.) ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) ; United Nations ; University of Alabama ; YMCA of the USA Merchant mariners--Labor unions ; Methodist Church--United States--Clergy--Biography ; Southern States--Religion 2465 Return to Alabama and Ministry It's a wonderful history because it says, if I can leap with this, because I want to take you back to Montgomery. It says that you came with a very broad background. Rev. Hughes recalls moving back to Alabama and beginning his work with the Methodist Church and with the Alabama Council on Human Rights. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Alabama Council on Human Relations Civil rights--United States ; Montgomery (Ala.) 2620 Montgomery Bus Boycott and Shift in Public Understanding of Civil Rights Movement Okay, you're are working your plan very well. And in doing that -- give me your sequence here. What happened to the Alabama Chapter once the bus protest or boycott started? Did it disintegrate? Rev. Hughes discusses his work as a minister during the time of the Montgomery Bus Boycott, and how civil rights issues were addressed in his community. King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Lucy, Autherine, 1930- ; Race relations--Religious aspects ; Southern States--Race relations African Americans--Civil rights ; Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 2848 Rise in White Nationalist Resistance to Civil Rights Movement And many things were happening in places like Tuskegee, for example, that weren't being publicized and this is one of the things that I was intent on getting out as well. Rev. Hughes discusses increased resistance of white nationalist groups and his continued support of civil rights issues. African Americans--Segregation ; Alabama Council on Human Relations ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Southern States--Race relations ; White nationalism African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; White Citizens councils 3414 News Coverage and Personal Threats Escalate When did you begin to contact and why did you begin to contact the national press corps? Talk a little bit about that and how you used them to put a window on this city a little bit. Rev. Hughes discusses speaking with the media about civil rights issues in Alabama, and describes the escalating threats made by white nationalist groups against his family -- including a cross being burned outside his home by the KKK. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Cross Burnings ; Race relations in the United States ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) Civil rights movements--Southern States--History--20th century ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; White Citizens councils 4360 Methodist Church's Response to Rev. Hughes Work What was the response of the Bishop and the hierarchy of the Methodist church? Rev. Hughes describes how Methodist clergy and leadership responded to his civil rights work. Methodist Church (U.S.). Alabama Conference ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Race relations--Religious aspects 4522 The New York Times Article on Birmingham Civil Rights Movement It culminated obviously in what happened later on, can I assume that? But let's go back to Harrison Salisbury. Now, you have been in contact with the national press because you have given interviews and so forth. Rev. Hughes discusses The New York Times article on segregation in Birmingham, and the reaction of the white community to the article. Birmingham News ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; New York Times ; Race relations--Periodicals ; Salisbury, Harrison E. (Harrison Evans), 1908-1993 African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.) 4790 Interview Conclusion Stop a minute here. Can we stop here? Interview video ends. Oral History Rev. Robert Hughes discusses starting the Alabama Council on Human Relations after beginning his career as a Methodist minister. HANSON: Bob, give your full name and where you are now. HUGHES: Robert Epperson Hughes and I live on Mercer Island. It' ; s part of the suburbs of Seattle. HANSON: And, at the time of this interview, you are now retired? HUGHES: Yes. HANSON: But, prior to that, you were doing some interesting work in Seattle, just a brief statement before we get to the Alabama history. HUGHES: Well, I was working with the Community Relations Service of the U. S. Department of Justice as a mediator. We were involved in the mediation of community based racial issues in Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Alaska. Much of my work was in Alaska. HANSON: So you were trained as a minister, however, and ordained as a Methodist minister? HUGHES: Yes. HANSON: Did you ever have a pulpit? HUGHES: Yes. HANSON: Tell me about that, briefly. HUGHES: Well, that was in Rockford, Alabama, my first assignment and it was for one year. It was intended to be a longer period, but it was from only 1953 to early ' ; 54. And, then, I began working in the area of race relations. HANSON: And, you then came and founded the Alabama Council on Human Relations? HUGHES: No. I didn' ; t found it. This was pre-existing as the Alabama Division of the Southern Regional Council. It was a very small, bi-racial organization. They had been in existence for several years, I don' ; t know just how many. But, it was, the Southern Regional Council was headquartered in Atlanta and had 12 state affiliates scattered across, one in each state. Typically, like the one in Alabama, it was an organization that met once a year. And in the case of Alabama, at Alabama State College, which was the only place that legally, they could meet without interference. HANSON: " ; They" ; meaning Blacks and Whites? HUGHES: Right. And, around 75 members would meet together once a year for the purpose of discussion, speakers that were regarded as authorities in the subject. HANSON: The subject in this case meaning better race relations or desegregation, what was it? HUGHES: Improvement of race relations would probably be the key term for this early period. Say, prior to 1953, in any case. HANSON: When you came to Montgomery, you agreed to come and start the Alabama Council on Human Relations, is that correct? HUGHES: Well, I came, yes. Well, I don' ; t want to say that I started it because my services were requested by the president of that organization. HANSON: Who was? HUGHES: Who was a Methodist minister. HANSON: I see. HUGHES: Rev. Dan Whitset, pastor of First Methodist Church in Sylacauga. As president we had had contact over the years. I had visited the Alabama Division of the Southern Regional Council annual meeting with him, along with my wife, down in Montgomery. And, it was after such contacts as that, that he was instrumental in asking the Bishop of the Methodist church for the North Alabama Conference, of which I was a member, if he would be willing to appoint me to a special appointment outside the structure of the church, to work in this new area that was just being opened up at the Alabama Division of the Southern Regional Council. HANSON: Was there any question within the Methodist church? I mean, because obviously, if this interview goes on, we' ; ll talk about some of the conflict there. But, at that time, did the church have any question about you stepping out and going into race relations, because that was a difficult time for Whites and Blacks? HUGHES: No. I think it would probably have been consistent with a certain attitude of tolerance that may have been prevalent in that particular period of the early 50s, that would have, did not result in overt opposition to it. For example, the Southern Baptist Convention state' ; s senate, I believe it was, in Alabama, in about 1953, ' ; 54, went on the record, if you can believe it at that time, as favoring desegregation. And, just a short time later, that would have been inconceivable. But, anyway the Methodist were far less conservative than the Southern Baptist on most of these issues. Anyway, there was not particular overt opposition to my being assigned to this work because two thirds of the conference, of the North Alabama Conference membership had to vote to approve my appointment, as well as two thirds of the cabinet, the Bishop' ; s Cabinet, and the Bishop himself. HANSON: So you came to Montgomery then, you took the job and you what, sought out people of like mind to, to form an organization? Tell me a little about that history, because it was there that you met King, Dr. Martin Luther King, and you began working together. HUGHES: Yes, well, we were eventually able to get a small office in downtown Montgomery. This was not without problems, however. I will always be indebted to the man, who was in charge of the insurance office next to mine. I told him how I was faced with the dilemma, " ; Where on earth do I start in establishing a state-wide organization of Blacks and Whites in Alabama?" ; He said, " ; Well, the whole idea is to plan your work and work your plan," ; while slapping on my desk. Shook me awake, but it was good advice, because I did just that. I sat down and began to plan how we would work out from Montgomery as a base, and a group of people meeting only once a year, who had hardly knew each other. And, moving out over the state and working through this plan, which eventually was approved at the annual meeting and so on. HANSON: Now, you are in Montgomery and how did you get a nucleus to work with you in Montgomery, before you expanded? I mean, some of the names in the Civil Rights Movement obviously were part of that early Alabama Council on Human Relations. Just talk about that early formation for a moment. HUGHES: Well, one of the first acts was to form what we called districts. That plan divided the state into districts, one of which was the Montgomery district. And, then, within that context, we were able to pull together, within Montgomery, I began to make contacts with everybody who I thought might be interested in this kind of an organization. And, I say " ; this kind" ; because it was very general. There was no strict set of objectives or goals or statement of purpose other than equal opportunity for all people in Alabama. That was the general umbrella under which this entire movement went forward. Movement, that' ; s overstating it, but our efforts were under this general umbrella. Making contacts for myself, it would be a logical entry I had was with white clergy. And, also Black clergy were already, to a certain extent, involved in this kind of dialogue and, then, also Black and White college professors. That was sort of the nucleus of that Montgomery group. And, it was in this connection that I met Martin Luther King, who also was just starting out his ministry. He had just been called to Dexter Avenue Baptist Church. It was more or less to recruit him. Well, really to establish contact with a fellow minister first, and, then, that later evolved into asking him if he and Coretta would be interested in participating in this little organization. That we would be meeting at Alabama State College for a short period. They were immediately very responsive. That' ; s along with Ralph Abernathy, Ed Nixon, NAACP President and an assortment of White persons, largely professional, a couple of state government employees and so on. We convened together. I was the convener actually of the meeting. And, trying to immediately get myself out of the position of convener, into the hands of local leadership. And, I was involved in trying to get a listing of officers to take over that leadership at a very early stage. And, among the persons that I called on to, on behalf of a nominating committee, I went to Martin Luther King and asked him that, " ; We needed a vice president of the organization and would you be interested?" ; And, we nominated him. After all, the community like this was new in town. It would be a way of becoming known in the civil rights area, and we think, you know, that this is a good opportunity for both of us. He graciously accepted the invitation and was elected vice chairman, I guess it was, not president, of the Montgomery Council on Human Relations when it was initially formed. HANSON: Who was the president? HUGHES: I' ; m not sure who the first president was. HANSON: Was it a white or a Black? HUGHES: It was a White person. Bob Gretz who was a White, Lutheran minister working in a Black Lutheran church on the west side, a missionary type from Ohio. He was, I believe, the second chairperson. I' ; m not certain who the first one was. It will come to me perhaps. HANSON: So the nucleus of that were people that later went on, of course, and along with you made history in the Civil Rights Movement. But in the beginning it was amicable, the churches were sort of behind you. There was an effort, I' ; m assuming this, Bob, there was an effort to have a dialog between White and Black. It wasn' ; t an action group, per se, was it? HUGHES: Not necessarily, no. I think that statement of purpose was to achieve equal opportunity for all people of Alabama through education and study, which is a fairly low key, non activist statement. HANSON: Still, you had as part, you said, of that early formation of the Montgomery group of the Alabama Council on Human Relations, you had people like Nixon and you had people, of course, like Abernathy and King, as well as several Whites, and the NAACP, which at this time was filing suit with the Supreme Court, was it not? HUGHES: Well, yes. Well, Mrs. Rosa Parks was also a member of the Council, a very faithful member ; came to all the meetings, bringing her elderly mother with her, just the two of them. But, this was before the arrest of Mrs. Parks and, of course, the bus boycott began. But, we had just formed, a short time before that historical event occurred. HANSON: So, then, you had formed in ' ; 52 or ' ; 53? HUGHES: No. September of 1954 was when I was brought there. HANSON: So it was right on top of the Supreme Court decision practically. HUGHES: The boycott, the bus protest as we called it in that time, to avoid, for legal purposes, that was a year long event that culminated in the final decision of the Supreme Court. HANSON: Right. Yes. I guess what I was talking about was the Brown v. The Board of Education, which was... HUGHES: That had occurred just prior to the bus boycott. HANSON: And, I want to put this in context. Because here you were forming a group that is doing a dialogue between Blacks and Whites for the purpose of equal opportunity. Yet at that time, the Supreme Court decision desegregating schools had just come down. When did the hate begin? When did the fear begin, if you can put that in some kind of context for me? Fears for Whites, fears for Blacks, did it follow that Supreme Court decision? I' ; m talking now about Brown v. Board of Education. HUGHES: The Supreme Court decision had occurred in 1953, the initial decision in May. I was still at Rockford, Alabama if you' ; re interested in my own experiences at this point. HANSON: I am. I want the context of how this happened. HUGHES: I was assigned to Rockford, a small county seat town of 300 population, four point circuit in the Methodist church. Anyway, on the day that this occurred, the Supreme Court decision came down, I called the Baptist preacher in town. It was really just the two of us, we were the only religious leadership in this little town of Rockford. And said, " ; Meet me down at the little cafe on the main intersection. I' ; d like to talk to you about what might be coming down, and who knows what might happen in the wake of a Supreme Court decision like this." ; There would certainly be no challenge to the White position of segregation or anything like that in the town of Rockford. But, it is a matter of, in the event, if anything should occur, maybe as the religious leadership, we have a responsibility, as vague as that. Anyway, he was willing to talk about it and from that very beginning, that night, that hot, spring evening, as I remember. He didn' ; t know what to make of me asking him to meet for this kind of general kind of purpose. But, shortly after that I attended the district conference of the Methodist church, Sylacauga district, not the, the Alexander City district conference where ministers only meet once a month. And, at that meeting I brought up to this group of White Methodists ministers meeting at the Alexander City, in the Methodist church, there' ; s a group, I would guess around 20-25 clergymen. I was the youngest and newest being assigned in that district. And, I proposed to the group, I stood up and made my first statement to them, really, but, said, " ; With the Supreme Court decision, having come down, last week or last month perhaps, I don' ; t recall, it would be timely if all of us began to think in terms of what kind of responsibility we as local clergyman had as we look at the changes that were going to be taking place. I think that the cities are going to be a lot of turmoil and maybe violence, we don' ; t know. But, I would suggest that each one of us should take the responsibility of us identifying and contacting Black leadership in our communities and meet with them for the purpose of establishing communication with each other and try to work out understandings about how problems would be addressed, jointly." ; And, I sat down. HANSON: What kind of response? HUGHES: One by one. " ; Well, we all know Bobby Hughes, his father and his family are strong Methodists from up in Gadsden and he has a brother who' ; s a minister in the conference and we think a lot of him and we are looking forward to good things from Bobby as the years go by. We appreciate his thoughts. Thank you Bobby. One after the other, virtually all the ministers in some fashion said substantially that. HANSON: Sit down and be quiet, Bobby. HUGHES: Sit down and be quiet and don' ; t bother us. And, in effect, left with nothing. HANSON: In other words, don' ; t shake the boat? HUGHES: I think I learned something...I began, for the first time, to learn some things about what to expect in terms of challenging or trying to solicit change. HANSON: Address that. I was going to go back to your history. But address that, what did you learn at that incidence, about challenging change? HUGHES: Well, in long term, there was no real challenge to them except an abstract idea that was inconceivable in their minds, that problems were going to arise in all of our communities over this issue. That was not conceivable at that time. HANSON: But what did you learn personally, that you had to challenge the status quo? HUGHES: Well, that was certainly part of it. But, there had, I think that we were so far from receiving a challenge. All of the desegregation efforts up to that time had been in other places, distance places and the locusts was more like Washington, D.C., where the Supreme Court was sitting making its pronouncements and so on. HANSON: Were you disappointed? I hear you did a lot of this from a Christian perspective. Were you disappointed that you couldn' ; t get these people to sit down, have dialogue? I mean, now we are preceding what happened to you in Montgomery? HUGHES: Well, yes, I was deeply disappointed. But, as I look back on it, I don' ; t know why I should have expected anything else. And, I went back to little Rockford, and began to make such contacts as best I could. HANSON: Were you rejected? Was the beginnings of where people thought you were a little bit strange? HUGHES: Perhaps. Yes. But I don' ; t think it would have, at least questions might have been raised at that point. HANSON: But everybody was too polite and say. Bob, certainly your history... HUGHES: And, other things may have intervened to make me more acceptable otherwise. I was the first young minister that this church had had in many years. Elderly, retired ministers were the only pastors they had and they didn' ; t know what to make of this young fellow with these new ideas and preaching sermons about race relations and a way that they had never heard. HANSON: And they didn' ; t leave the church because of it? HUGHES: No. Not really. HANSON: That' ; s interesting. Let' ; s go back to how your attitudes even arose and, then, we' ; ll zip forward and talk more about what happened when you were here in Birmingham and your involvement in the Klan' ; s opposition to you, and so forth. But the Hughes family founded Gadsden. HUGHES: Well, my great-grandfather and his brother were credited as the founders, yes. HANSON: Your great-grandfather was a slave holder? HUGHES: Yes. HANSON: Fought in the civil war? HUGHES: I think it was, I don' ; t believe he fought in the civil war, but, Joseph, his son, did. And there were other kin folks on my dad' ; s side. Well, both my father and mother' ; s side. HANSON: So it was a very aristocratic, southern background on the Hughes side. You were brought up with the memorabilia, you said, of the civil war. Deal with that a little bit. HUGHES: Well, there were always stories about what, let' ; s see, I guess it was my grandfather, would have been the one who ate rats during the siege of Vicksburg when they were virtually starved in submission there. Various little episodes like that. One of my uncles was injured and returned home and went back into battle. The story of Emma Sampson, this is all, I don' ; t want to go in anymore detail. But, anyway, the heroine of Gadsden, historical heroine was a young woman in her late teens, Emma Sampson who jumped, when General Lee was chasing Straight through North Alabama, not General Lee, Forrest, of course. General Nathan Bedford Forrest was chasing General Straight through North Alabama and General Straight had had the bridge burned across Black Creek that divided Gadsden. And, so Emma Sampson hopped up on the back of General Forrest' ; horse and said, " ; I can show you the way to the fiord." ; And, she took them off in another direction, across the river, the creek, which was swollen, up north of the bridge site, and bullets shot, her dress was ripped with bullets. And, Forrest then proceeded to chase General Straight on up to Rome and... HANSON: And, that civil war battle is talked about to this day. Was Emma Sampson related... HUGHES: There' ; s a big statute in the middle of town now to her in Sampson. HANSON: Is she any relation to you? HUGHES: Oh, no. HANSON: So you grew up with those stories in your family. HUGHES: The civil war stories (inaudible) HANSON: So you took a great pride in that sort of southernness as you were growing up? That sort of White... HUGHES: That was a side, certainly how pride was developed, family pride. HANSON: In this. But, that was the aristocratic Hughes side that went towards the development of Gadsden and you felt very strong. And, your father was a practicing physician in the town, correct? HUGHES: Yes. HANSON: On your mother' ; s side, she came from Ensley and hers was not the aristocratic background, but instead they were laborers. Tell me a little about that. HUGHES: Well, my grandfather, Epperson, lived on, I believe, 19th Street in Ensley near Tuxedo Junction, as I recall. But, he was a brick mason who built, was involved in laying brick for the first blast furnace at TCI, Tennessee Coal and Iron. And his sons, or step-sons were all involved in laboring situations and, then, organized labor, a little bit later. I know one of them, Leslie Case, was a step-son, but Leslie was one of the officers of United Steel Workers of America. HANSON: So, your mother was the first person you said, first woman to graduate from Ensley High School? HUGHES: Yes. In the class that included women, as I understood it. HANSON: And she went on and was Phi Beta Kappa at the University of Alabama? HUGHES: Right. In the first class with women from the University of Alabama. HANSON: That' ; s fascinating. So, in your growing up, you had these two, if I could dare say this, two trains of thought, I guess, coming into helping forming what Bobby Hughes ended up being. Deal with that a little bit. I mean, here you were brought up with a sense of pride as a son of the Confederacy with a good heritage there, and yet, at the same time, there was this kind of humanism that you saw in your mother' ; s side. Not to say the other wasn' ; t necessarily human. Talk about those two. You said, your mother was a mitigating circumstance and helped you. HUGHES: Well, I' ; ve said my father was a person very deeply oriented in service as a country physician. So there was that humanity, of course, his practice involved treatment of Blacks and Whites. But, the social values, let' ; s say, of a ; there' ; s never any sense of challenging or questioning segregation or racial practices that I can remember in my early childhood. I think that I would say that the values that my mother represented, sensitivity to and a sense of equality among people, without specific application necessarily to race, just acceptance of people on an individual basis and a warmth there that I seemed to feel that that probably shaped my own outlook to applied it specifically, eventually. HANSON: You went to the University of Alabama and did undergraduate work, didn' ; t you? HUGHES: Yes. HANSON: Were you active in the Methodist student organization, these kind of things? You came from a very religious family. A practicing religious family and that colored your views, is that correct? HUGHES: Yes. Again, my, I always heard the story of my great grand-father giving the land that the First Methodist Church in Gadsden is built on. As a founder of the city he had large tracts of land that he allocated for different purposes. So, anyway, yes, we were strongly involved in serving the Methodist church. HANSON: And, then when you went to Alabama is that where you made the decision to go into the ministry? HUGHES: No. HANSON: Deal with that a little bit, Bob. Just to get some of that history. HUGHES: Actually I went to the University of Alabama during the war. I entered in 1945 while the war in the Pacific was still going on, but throughout high school I was aiming at working at a military career, reflecting the spirit of those times. And, I actually had an alternate appointment to West Point and was looking to, preparing to go to West Point as a military officer. But, then, when I got into the University of Alabama and peace came, I began, and the United Nations began to form and so on, I made a change over toward international relations and international diplomacy was much more attractive than a military career. So I majored in political science and took, I think, a couple of quarters of graduate study in political science. I experienced some inner turmoil, some spiritual turmoil, and so... HANSON: Explain that. Deal with that a little bit. HUGHES: Well, I never felt that this, I mean there always seemed to be a question that grew over a period of time. By the time I was in graduate school, maybe some other things I needed to be doing, what they were, I didn' ; t have any clear focus. Anyway, to make a long story short, on a retreat with Dr. E. Stanley Jones up in North Carolina I made the decision... HANSON: Who, let' ; s digress here, was a very famous Methodist missionary in Africa? HUGHES: In India. Yes. And I read devotional books that were very popular in that time, abundant living, and so on. But, anyway, it was under, I guess, the precipitating influence or the culminating influence of Dr. E. Stanley Jones, I made this decision and decided to enter the ministry and Dr. Jones arranged for me, a month later, to enter seminary at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. There was a Methodist seminary there, or was for the next three years. HANSON: After you graduated from Emory, you also then, I believe went on a ship, as I recall. Was that right after you graduated from Emory? HUGHES: Yes. Well, I was, I felt... HANSON: This, it' ; s an interesting story and this is why I think for the history, to know the Bob Hughes that took a, such an active role in all of the things that happened in those early days in Alabama' ; s civil rights history. We need to know some of that that precipitated Bob. It' ; s part of the profile of you, so if you don' ; t mind, deal with that, working on a ship. HUGHES: Well, when I finished seminary I was faced with, okay, now, it' ; s time to enter the ministry, the pastorate and I felt like I needed laboring experience. I needed to broaden my horizons, and so on. So I just decided to take a year and dedicate it to doing, to achieving just that. And, it was a whole series of things, much more than a ship. But, I hitchhiked from Gadsden up to Chicago and spent a week or more on skid row, living in flop houses and so on. And, then, out to, hitchhiked to Hibbing, Minnesota and pulled cable in iron ore pits. And, from there, a week of harvest work in Alberta near Edmonton and, then, hitchhiked back to New York City and tried to get a job on a trans-steamer. Would work-a-way, anywhere abroad. I was told that the work-a-ways went out with World War II. That' ; s a thing of the past. They don' ; t have that any more. But I decided that I' ; m the exception to that general rule and knocked on, living at the Sloan House YMCA in Manhattan. Over a course of six weeks or so, I guess, with over 90 shipping offices and ships tied up at anchor and at the docks in New York City and Brooklyn and so on, before I found that one exception and actually found a job where they' ; d pay me. It was a Greek owned trans-steamer under the Panamanian flag. So, it was an old liberty ship, but was involved in trade down into the Caribbean area. We went to Bermuda and, then Trinidad. I was a messman. I washed dishes and served the crew of about 30 people. I found there was mixture of stateless persons, some, a couple from eastern Europe had been, they had no identification and Latin Americans and others. But anyway, working in that way, under horrible conditions, I thought and eventually back through the Caribbean back into Baton Rouge and, then to Baltimore and New York City. HANSON: Did you try to organize the crews or how did that work? HUGHES: Yes. When I got back to New York City I was so disgusted with the conditions on the ship, living conditions and working conditions and some of the men were virtually tied to the ship because they couldn' ; t, they were not released from the ship. Anyway, I went to the Panamanian Seamans Union and offered my services and became an organizer for the Panamanian Seamans Union in New York Harbor. And, in that way, I went on all the Panamanian flag ships, as many as I could get to meet with the crewmen and to sign them up as members of the union. And, my eyes were really opened to the conditions. I didn' ; t know how well off I was on the ship that I was on, but when I got on to this, the people, who were, it was literally a form of indentured servitude I guess you' ; d call it. HANSON: Shades of slavery. HUGHES: Yes. Seamen, say recruited in Greece or Italy or other places in Europe. The ship then would enter the American market, would sailing between American ports and say Latin American ports, for example. And, when they would sign on the captain would ask for the seaman' ; s papers and their passport and put them in his safe for safekeeping. And, they would go back to Europe only maybe once a year, and he would return those papers and so on, only when he was ready to release the crew. And, if they jumped ship in Maricado or Venezuela or some place like this, they were stranded. In fact, there was a man on our ship did just that and immigration in Venezuela picked him up and flew him to Lygyra where they put him back on our ship. Anyway, these were the conditions that I was concerned about when I got back. HANSON: And, so, how long did you stay with that? HUGHES: Oh, it was several months. I also went to the State Department of Shipping Board, the Coast Guard, International Labor Organization of the United Nations and also the newspapers trying to focus attention on what I had thought I had just stumbled across. But, you see, a lot of American money was involved in these runaway fleets as they were termed. I couldn' ; t gain any interest. HANSON: And you couldn' ; t fight the establishment could you? It was too entrenched. HUGHES: I did what I could but nobody seemed to be particularly interested. HANSON: So you came back then from that? Came back to Alabama? HUGHES: No. Well, after that I began working at the United Nations as a guard in the security section in one of the first early general assembly sessions. And, that was oh, for a couple of months. And, then, after that, I had another job on a work away to a Norwegian flag ship to North Morocco and to Italy and left the ship by prearrangement and hitchhiked up to Geneva, Switzerland for a World Council of Churches Ecumenical Student Conference or course in ecumenical theology. And then, after hitchhiking around Europe and England, I then got a work away on an American flag ship back to New York and hitchhiked back to Alabama and began, went to my first Methodist conference and joined the North Alabama Conference, at that point to receive my appointment to Rockford. HANSON: It' ; s a wonderful history because it says, if I can leap with this, because I want to take you back to Montgomery. It says that you came with a very broad background. More than what the average minister would have to bring to a parish. So that by the time you got to Montgomery and you were ready to form the Alabama Chapter of the Alabama Council of Human Relations with the board that you' ; re setting up and the presidency, vice presidency and chairmen and so forth, you brought to it an understanding of human nature, maybe, can I assume that and a dedication to bring people together? Is that part of the motivation, do you think? HUGHES: Well, the beginnings of understanding I guess. I had done some student organizing around social issues in seminary, racial issues in fact. So it didn' ; t all come out of that one year. HANSON: What turned the tide for Bob Hughes to see this injustice and want to go and take action? You said you even did it in the seminary. Is there one single event or was it just an ongoing? HUGHES: It was a gradual evolution I would think. HANSON: Let' ; s go back to Montgomery, the... HUGHES: Interspersed with opportunities that could have come to anybody. HANSON: But not everybody did it in the same way. Not everybody would take advantage of it in the same way or learn from it in the same way. That' ; s an editorial opinion that I' ; m not allowed to put on it. But, going back to Montgomery, you now have, a nucleus for the Montgomery Chapter, is that correct? And you consistently meet in Montgomery with your group in Montgomery, how often. HUGHES: Well, it was usually once a month. But, at the same time though I was doing the same sort of thing in Birmingham, Tuscaloosa, Tri-Cities, Mobile, Tuskegee and Selma, Dothan. These were part of the districts that we set up and what I did in Montgomery first was, soon as we got started, got a group together, then I was working in these other districts as well to do something of the same. HANSON: To work your plan, what was the statement again? HUGHES: Plan your work and work your plan. HANSON: You are working your plan. Your sequence here. What happened to the Alabama Chapter once the bus protest or boycott started? Did it disintegrate? HUGHES: No, sir. HANSON: Did it become stronger? Was it supportive? Talk a little bit about that. HUGHES: Well... HANSON: Did King stay active? Did Abernathy stay active? Nixon? HUGHES: I know that Dr. King and Mrs. King remained active as they could. But Dr. King soon was so overwhelmed with leadership and travelling throughout the entire country with tremendous demand. HANSON: During the boycott? HUGHES: Yes, from that point forward. But, they maintained their membership as more than just regular members, they were sustaining members as I remember which was a generous level of membership. And, the council itself, I don' ; t recall specifically people dropping out of it, because of White members. If anything, it grew somewhat in that initial period of the bus protest. I think many of us felt that something big is taking place here. This is Black and White. And we were looking for ways in which to assist and become, to contribute to the success of something that' ; s very significant and important to start. I don' ; t recall Whites questioning what was going on. I think it was all very understandable. One of the things I try to do is to interpret what was going on through our newsletter throughout the state and news media that somehow got my name. And, I was under tremendous pressure of having to give interviews and so on at a time when I needed to be doing other things. But, there was an aspect of our work that involved trying to interpret and educate the larger community about the significance of what was going on, especially that which was not being published. HANSON: For example, " ; that which was not being published" ; ? HUGHES: Well, during the boycott itself, that was pretty well publicized, but, you have to understand, we were talking earlier about how this kind of benign attitude toward race on the part of the White community seemed to permeate most of the state. But, by 1956, or ' ; 55 and with the beginning of the bus boycott closely followed by the Autherine Lucy riots at the University of Alabama and perhaps preceded a short time earlier by the Little Rock school crisis, all of these combined in Alabama to produce a state of racial tension. And many things were happening in places like Tuskegee, for example that weren' ; t being publicized and this is one of the things that I was intent on getting out. HANSON: Did the opposition to you personally start about that time? Or, am I being unfair in saying that? I mean, there was a turning point ; the benignness that you spoke of, ceased to exist. And there seemed to be a coalescing of a lot of Whites within the church and outside the church against people who took an active point of view. HUGHES: Well, the White Citizens Councils were formed, especially in Alabama. Senator Hugo Heart and so on were common in this. But this spread like wild fire throughout the lower two-thirds of the state. The northern third wasn' ; t impacted nearly as much as the rest of the state. But from Birmingham and north, there was much less in the way of this kind of community-based organization of the White Citizens Council many of which later evolved into Ku Klux Klan revival. But, initially, it went through that kind of an evolution. I' ; m sorry, I may have lost your question. HANSON: No. No. It was a good delineation of the history of that time. Was there pressure against you personally at that time? I mean you were trying to inform through your newsletter of the things that were not in the general newspaper. You were giving interviews. What about the personal hate directed towards you? Did you have any pressure from the church? HUGHES: Well, divide it up in this way. From ' ; 54 to ' ; 56, when we were in Montgomery, I don' ; t think we were particularly involved much in the way of focusing on efforts against me personally. It was more directed towards the Montgomery Improvement Association, of course. That would be the harassing kind of phone call and that sort of thing. But, toward the end of ' ; 56 one of the things that I did first off when I went to Montgomery was, I wanted to be able to rent an office where there would be no question if I wanted a Black secretary, for example, it would be no problems. And, whenever I raised that and I didn' ; t get any space. But, I did get one space. And, actually, we never got to the point of hiring a Black secretary, but, because of our general work, we were not able to renew our lease in the office space that we had in Montgomery. So, we faced the question. Do we go to another location here in Montgomery, or elsewhere? And, my feeling was that Birmingham, which had begun to experience the dynamitings, the bombings, there was a whole series at that point, something like 23 unsolved bombings according to Emory Jackson of the Birmingham World, who catalogued all these. But, we felt that there were much more serious tension building and problems that were coming to the surface in the Birmingham area than in Montgomery. Montgomery was in good hands, but Birmingham was much more wide open. And, therefore, we ought to put the office in Birmingham to be closer to this scene. So, in 1956, we did move the office up here. And, very soon after we got into establishing ourselves here in Birmingham that these troubles began to be felt. But there was still a couple of years even after that before it became intense. HANSON: Let' ; s talk about the early formation of the Birmingham group. You got an office here. Did you have the same difficulty getting an office? Could you get a Black secretary? HUGHES: No. I don' ; t recall asking that question again. There was no law that would be of any help to us and it just repeatedly had the doors slammed in our face. I got in the Comer Building, which at that time we could afford a very small space there. We were trying to get some kind of image of acceptability in the White community and buy a location that would lend some credibility or acceptability. HANSON: Why was it so important to have the credibility with the White community? HUGHES: Well, we were beginning to be looked upon as increasingly far to the left, communist, red, pinkos. These labels were beginning to evolve to be associated with any White who had shown any interest in the Civil Rights Movement. HANSON: Then where did you get your nucleus of White support? You had the Black support. HUGHES: Well, we really began with whatever membership we had in a given community in that initial role of the state organization. We established contact with them and convened a meeting of those. And, then, by word of mouth, so and so should be involved and it would evolve out from a word of mouth kind of growth until we had a meeting that we would convene of say, 30 or 40 people. And, after two or three such meetings, an election of officers. HANSON: And, again, the goal was the same? To have education, to bring about a communication and justice and so forth, but not an activist group? HUGHES: Well, I didn' ; t mean to imply earlier that the lack of activism permeated the entire organization. For example, during the Montgomery bus boycott, the Alabama Council sponsored meetings for Blacks and Whites where role plays were conducted in churches, Black churches. But, where a set up of a simulation of a bus with seats and try to help prepare the community as a whole for the inevitable desegregation of the bus system. The end of the boycott, return to the buses, how shall we return and so on. So, it was involved in that kind of educational process which is a little more activist oriented I would think than some of the other chapters which would like to have studied the problem to death. HANSON: When you came to Birmingham, you had, if I can assume this, two primary purposes aside from its mission for education and race tolerance and so forth and desegregation, I' ; m assuming. But you had to get members and you had to get funds, is that correct? HUGHES: Yes. HANSON: And in getting members and in getting funds is where I' ; m going to lead you as you obviously know from the famous Harrison Salisbury release of the names and all of that history. Lead me to that, can you Bob, a little bit. Am I being vague in my question, here? In other words, you had to reach out and get a membership list, is that correct? In Birmingham? HUGHES: Yes. We built a mailing list, I' ; d guess you' ; d say. A membership list. And, as the Birmingham Council on Human Relations evolved into existence, of which, the Hanson family was a part. HANSON: And, as that came about, you also collected funds, did you not, and had meetings and so forth. When did you begin to contact and why did you begin to contact the national press corps? Talk a little bit about that and how you used them to put a window on this city a little bit. HUGHES: I don' ; t remember specifically how I happened to get in contact with, say, the New York Times. As best I remember contact was made by Harrison Salisbury directly to me, not the reverse. I did not initiate the contact, I don' ; t think. But I' ; d been in touch with Peter Keyes of the New York Times during the Autherine Lucy riots. And, so, it wasn' ; t so unusual for another reporter for the New York Times to seek me out. I had been in touch in various situations throughout the state with the outside media. So, anyway, he asked me for interviews, which I gave him and I gave him as much as I could. Especially some of the untold stories of atrocities that had been occurring in Birmingham. The national public opinion was completely unaware of this. HANSON: And so you were quoted very often. Is that when they began to intensify their attacks against you? " ; They" ; meaning the Klan, " ; They," ; meaning the White Citizens Council, all of this. For example, the (inaudible) that' ; s sitting now in the Institute, the cross that was burned on your lawn by the Klan. I mean, did that all fall in that period of time? HUGHES: Well, that had occurred a little bit earlier and some of the other things that had occurred, say, in the community, where we lived in Cahaba Heights. HANSON: Talk about that a little bit if you can? HUGHES: I' ; m trying to pick up a year. But, it was like ' ; 58 or ' ; 59, somewhere in that period. But, we began to feel, well, the Methodists ministers in the layman' ; s association which was a White Citizens Council movement, masked under Methodist logo, you might say. But, that movement seemed among other things, took over the control of the lay structure of the United Methodist Church in both the North Alabama Conference and the Alabama Conference. And they took it upon themselves to target myself and my appointment by the North Alabama Conference to this work. In their publications, I believe it was called Truth, I could be wrong. But it seems like that was the name. That was the name of one of the associated publications or maybe that was theirs, I forget. But, they called for my removal from the appointment and, secondly demanded that no pension rights would be, that the church would not pay any pension rights for Robert Hughes. But the main thing was to get rid of him. HANSON: So in other words they were building up pressure both financially and emotionally against you at this time? HUGHES: Yes. And, reflected in our community by one Sunday morning, Dottie and I, my wife, when I came out of the Methodist church, I had been asked to preach there on a number of occasions and there was no problem there. But, I guess others on the fringe of the church, or in the community in any case, began to be aware of what we were doing and the kind of work that we were involved in and/or being concerned about it. But, I came out of church one Sunday morning and upon a member looking out from the steps of the church over the parking lot on every windshield of each car was a sheet of paper and I said, " ; I know exactly what this is." ; And, it was the, I think it was a Klan piece of literature saying that Robert Hughes working day and night for integration has got to be chased off, or something like this (inaudible) or something like this. That was the introduction, I think, to really intensifying opposition to me on a personal basis in the local community. HANSON: So from that hate kind of literature, larger things grew? HUGHES: Threatening phone calls associated with that. And, then, this is in a period when the Klan was very active, especially in the Birmingham area. But it was throughout most, two- thirds of the state, in any case, from Gadsden south. Every Saturday night the Klan would ride. They would go to places in addition to assaults on Black families and these more clandestine kinds of operations, they had a more public face in which they would ride in a calvacade and burn a cross and draw attention to someone. Anyway, they had been doing this every Saturday night in the Birmingham area for a long, extended period of time, for the past six months or more, I guess. But, Dottie and I were in the kitchen getting the children down to bed on one Saturday night and heard the horns blowing out in front of the house. We went to the front door, or I went to the window and looked out the front window, and there was a line of cars sitting with their headlights on led by a pick-up truck that had stopped in front of the house. In the back of the truck was a lighted, a cross that was lit with neon lights. And, the cars just went out of sight over the hill. There were so many of them that when I looked out the window, I took in this scene, and at that point, there was various figures in white robes were congregated, coming into the yard and sitting up. I remember clearly hearing this man through the window, " ; Put it there," ; pointing to the ground about three feet in from the curb. And, they set up a large cross and I gather with burlap wrap. Anyway, I called back to Dottie, " ; The Klan is here." ; And, maybe the children had just been put to bed, I believe that was the case. But anyway I called back to Dottie and we both went to the front door. And, one of the purposes of course, is to instill fear ; attract attention and instill fear on the parts of anybody that they may be targeting. And, I was intent that, you know, they would not be seen to succeed in that case with us. And as we came to the door, the lead truck, the man had got back into the pick-up truck and began to drive off and the cavalcade began to proceed by, with robed figures inside. Two and three people per car. HANSON: Did they wear hoods? HUGHES: Some were hooded, some were not. Some were older, some were children with their own little Klan outfits. And, as they came on by, they began to blow their horns and so on and I went out and connected the hose up and I figured, well, if I put the fire out, the rest of the Klan, these other people who are coming won' ; t know where it is. Where the target is. And, they' ; ll just keep on going. They won' ; t know where I was. So I started spraying water on the hose thing there at the side of the street, and, then, I realized, and Dottie came out and she' ; s standing there with me, and we glaring at this cross and we were spraying water on the (inaudible). And I suddenly realized if we put the fire out, they won' ; t realize that we' ; re defying them so I sprayed some water on it and, then, sprayed it over on the cars as they came by. I was alternating like this. It was fun. HANSON: Fun, were you never afraid? Didn' ; t you really fear for your life? I mean, what is the difference between them, let' ; s say, and the militia today that wouldn' ; t take a gun and shoot you? I mean did that never cross your mind?HUGHES: I didn' ; t do this every Saturday night, you understand. Next time, if the cars would have come back appropriately armed. I' ; m sure they were armed that night, but I surprised them that night. HANSON: Did you try to notify the press of what had happened to you? HUGHES: I called the sheriff' ; s office that night. HANSON: And what was the response of the sheriff' ; s office? Who was sheriff at that time, do you remember? HUGHES: Holt McDowell' ; s name comes to mind. I don' ; t know if that was earlier or that was the same time. I think the next day the sheriff came out. Nobody came that night. But, just to tie up that evening though, the cars went on out. And, then, one by one neighbors who had been summoned out with horns and everything that was going on, began to come out of the houses and come up there and see what this was all about. It was kind of a circus. They were basically, I' ; d say, sympathetic. You know, our friends who had been victimized by those Klan types, it would be that kind of a personal relationship that I think gave them courage to come up to check on things. And, one of the little neighborhood boys came up with his parents from a couple of houses down the street. As we were all standing there around the big, black, smoking cross, lying on the ground, steaming, still steaming, fire out of course, this little boy, four years old or something like that was holding on to his momma' ; s skirts, said, " ; Is Jesus on that cross?" ; HANSON: What a statement. HUGHES: And I told him, " ; In a way, he was." ; But anyway that was the evening. I called Clark Stallworth at the Post Herald and he was the only, really sympathetic print journalist that I knew. I told Clark that you might be interested in this type of cross burning that was conducting out here tonight by a large group of Klan. Well, I had estimated like 100 or more at least, because I counted over 50 cars and, then stopped. And they each had 2 to 3 or 4 people in them. Anyway, I told Clark what had happened and I told him a little bit about my wife' ; s background, which you haven' ; t asked me about. HANSON: No. I think we' ; ll do that too, in a minute. HUGHES: But, anyway, the next day, on the front page of the Post Herald was about a 2 or 3 paragraph articles, small on the front page, stating that a cross had been burned at the home of Rev. Robert Hughes of Cahaba Heights last night by a large group of Klansman. In the next paragraph, Mrs. Hughes, the wife of Rev. Hughes, happens to be the great- great grandniece of General Nathan Bedford Forrest who founded the Klu Klux Klan. HANSON: And they put that in the story? HUGHES: Clark put it on the front page of the Post Herald. HANSON: Did that generate any national requests for anyone? Did the Klan come back again after that? You had several other harassments, of course? But, I mean, of that magnitude? HUGHES: No. The cross burning, there was only one cross burning. And that same group had earlier gone up and burned a cross in front of the Methodist church which was about three blocks away from where we lived. There was nobody at the church at that hour. And they came on to our place. HANSON: But it was an act of intimidation always. I mean... HUGHES: Oh, yes. Cross burnings, yes. HANSON: But there was other intimidation though. I mean... HUGHES: There were periods in which the phone would ring, almost constantly, at all hours of the night. We had to turn the phone off. Of course, that cut off communication with others. And we had to turn it back on at some times, but there would be, obviously, I think there was a night watchman at some place here in Birmingham that, in the middle of the night, he would sit up and ring our number. And as soon as I turn the phone off saying, " ; Sorry, I can' ; t talk to you tonight." ; I would turn it off and the next morning turn it back on at 7:00 or so, and he' ; d still be there. HANSON: What was the response of the Bishop and the hierarchy of the Methodist church? And the reason I' ; m getting to this, Bob, is because this is going to lead us back to the Salisbury articles and what happened to you when you were put in jail in Bessemer. What was the response of the bishopry at that time? HUGHES: Nothing. Well, let me put it this way. The bishop that made the initial appointment to the Alabama Council had retired in about ' ; 55 or ' ; 56, maybe, at the latest, Bishop Purcell. And he was succeeded, I guess, by Bishop Hodge. And Bishop Hodge was my bishop from about 1955 or ' ; 56 on. He went along with what had been done earlier. That is, in making the appointment by around ' ; 58 when the Citizens Councils, which I said, had infiltrated the Methodist lay structure and was exerting strong influence through that structure statewide, questions were raised about whether or not this work should continue. By 1958 they said, well, you shouldn' ; t be doing this kind of work. We shouldn' ; t be sponsoring this. You ought to be in the pastorate. There was a great need for more pastors in the conference, and so on. And, that went on for, I guess to about 1958, but I refused. I just said, " ; I' ; m sorry, I disagree. I have to continue this work." ; In ' ; 59 it came back again. The church it self was going through a lot of turmoil over the existence of the central jurisdiction. Efforts to abolish the central jurisdiction, which was the segregated arm of the Methodist church in the south, and many of us were concerned that this needed to be abolished in the southern Methodist church. The Methodist church in the south was trying to oppose any change in the structure in the Methodist church. They rarely ever gave it a racial tilt. So that helped to inflame some feeling against myself. HANSON: Let' ; s stop right there. It culminated obviously in what happened later on, can I assume that? But let' ; s go back to Harrison Salisbury. Now, you have been in contact with the national press because you have given interviews and so forth. Salsberry came to town and the famous New York Times article, I believe it was in the fall of ' ; 59 was the famous line... HUGHES: (inaudible) HANSON: Yes. Fear stalks the streets of Birmingham. He called it America' ; s most segregated city, more segregated than Johannesburg. I mean it was quite an article, an inflammatory article. And underneath all of this, Bob Hughes was suspected of supplying Harrison Salisbury with a lot of the information. Is that true, number one? And, number two, how did you end up in jail in Bessemer through all of that? HUGHES: Well, the articles were published. I was interviewed extensively and the articles were published for two days running, I believe it was. One article on Birmingham and one article on the state as a whole, I believe. And, they were published in the New York Times, and the Birmingham News to its credit, decided that the people of Alabama needed to be told, informed about what they, the impersonal north, are saying about us. And so they published the same articles in their entirety, I believe, in the Birmingham News. And, the reaction was, from the White community, it was of course, immediately outraged and defensive. Defensive is the understatement of the year. Outraged and who told them? What are his sources? It' ; s a lie. Who did he get all this from? Such things as the assault on the Miles College students and Kelly Ingram Park holding a prayer vigil on their knees, arrested, prayer vigil broken up. And, the mother and the names published. And, one mother was assaulted by a Klan group in her home in Fairfield or Bessemer, I forget. Leg or legs broken or, severely injured. She was beaten with pipes. So, any way, that kind of story had never been published locally and the people in Birmingham were, for the first time, some of them were aroused by this. But, most seemed to be, most of the articulated responses were of outrage. And, the Bessemer cut-off, grand division, I guess. HANSON: Grand jury, now. HUGHES: Well, the grand jury of Bessemer county, for Jefferson County in the Bessemer cut-off was directed by the judge to investigate the articles, the source of the articles. And, among other things that were done by the grand jury or the investigators was to subpoena the records of the Tutwiler Hotel where Harrison Salisbury had stayed. And, at that time, you know they kept a list of all telephone calls made from the room, and they found my office number and my home number scattered throughout his records. And, as a result, the grand jury issued a subpoena and the next thing I knew, a deputy sheriff had come by my office there in the Comer Building and, handed me a subpoena. HANSON: Stop a minute here. Can we stop here? This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RHughes1995.xml RHughes1995.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rev. Robert Hughes
Description
An account of the resource
Rev. Robert Hughes discusses starting the Alabama Council on Human Relations after beginning his career as a Methodist minister.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
19950623HR
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1995-06-23
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/c555f3c16b25dbc3a996f5ec778b9d3c.jpg
2ebeb39b8a8799bcbda06cba3e8ecd0e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Horace Huntley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Rev. N. H. Smith
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=NHSmith1995.xml
Interview Keyword
This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are
included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
John Porter
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 July 26, 1995 Rev. N. H. Smith 19950726S 1:07:18 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 John Porter Rev. N. H. Smith Horace Huntley Video 1:|16(6)|37(2)|46(4)|61(8)|75(7)|86(8)|94(10)|104(4)|115(7)|125(13)|134(8)|159(7)|170(7)|182(13)|195(14)|208(8)|221(8)|231(7)|240(5)|258(6)|276(3)|286(9)|308(2)|317(2)|330(4)|343(3)|357(6)|372(9)|384(6)|392(8)|408(12)|426(5)|431(5)|442(4)|456(13)|479(9)|500(1)|526(7)|541(1)|561(1)|577(14)|591(7)|603(3)|614(13)|632(10)|643(7)|655(1)|666(4)|677(11)|689(6)|698(2)|707(1)|715(1)|725(14)|738(11)|755(6)|767(11)|787(13)|810(13)|834(12)|847(14)|854(12)|862(12)|867(4)|874(9)|886(14)|901(4) 0 https://youtu.be/Q1IPbdId3M8 YouTube video English 21 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Rev. N. H. Smith for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Rev. Smith is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 37 Family Background I want to start just by asking some general questions about background. What part of the state were your parents from? Smith tells where his parents are from, where he was born, and his parents educational background. Mary Holmes Seminary (West Point, Miss.) ; Selma University Brewton (Ala.) ; Monroe County (Ala.) 179 Educational Journey So as a young person growing up, you were in fact, your parents being educated individuals and really being upstanding citizens in the community, that sort of laid the foundation for you. Smith tells how he went to Selma University and how getting that education was an important part in his life. Bethlehem Baptist Association (Ala.) ; Selma University Monroeville (Ala.) ; Selma (Ala.) 554 Becoming a Preacher What did you do after Selma University? Smith recalls how after he got married he was preaching at two churches every month. Shiloh Baptist Church ; Tabernacle Baptist Church Clanton (Ala.) ; Montevallo (Ala.) 674 Urban vs Rural Cities When you arrived in Birmingham in '53 where did you live? Smith recalls the differences between urban and rural cities and how he moved to Birmingham to lead a congregation. New Pilgrim Baptist Church ; Parker, Charles H. Birmingham (Ala.) 845 Establishing Himself as a Preacher in Birmingham In 1953, of course, Birmingham was a rather interesting place. In 1954, Brown v. Board of Education decision takes place. Smith states that he did not immediately get involved with the NAACP because he was trying to establish himself as a preacher in Birmingham. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Pastor Birmingham (Ala.) 894 Charter Member of the Alabama Christian Movement And, then in '56 the state outlawed the operation of the NAACP which leads to the birth of the Alabama Christian Movement and you were, in fact, a charter member of the Movement. Smith discusses how the Alabama Christian Movement was founded to fight for rights after the NAACP was banned. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Racism 1221 Attending the National Baptist Convention I sort of distracted you when you were talking about you and Fred headed to Hot Springs. What was the trip to Hot Springs about? Smith recalls the time when he and Reverend Shuttlesworth attended the National Baptist Convention in Hot Springs, Arkansas. National Baptist Convention of America ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Hot Springs (Ark.) 1295 Experiencing Racism Throughout the South Did you ever encounter any difficulties in traveling between Birmingham and other places in the south? Smith recalls how he has been denied service in several places so he would take his business elsewhere. African Americans--Segregation ; Racism Birmingham (Ala.) ; Southern States--Race relations 1372 Becoming Secretary of the Alabama Christian Movement Now, in '56 when the actual Movement has started, when the organization of the Movement as a result of the NAACP being outlawed, what was your role? Smith recalls how tense the time was and how himself and Reverend Shuttlesworth were not taken as seriously as the leaders of the Jefferson County Betterment Association. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Jefferson County Betterment Association Birmingham (Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1537 Integrating Schools and Buses What were your first efforts an an organization after the Movement started? Smith states that their first effort as an organization was trying to get the schools and buses integrated and how this integration was not well received. Buses ; Integration ; Phillips High School Birmingham (Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1650 Attending Mass Meetings Tell me. I've asked people this question over and over again. What was a mass meeting like? Smith discusses what mass meetings were like and how he got his nickname " ; fireball" ; . Civil rights movement ; Mass meeting ; Revival Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 1795 Relationship with Vernon Johns You had some relationship with Vernon Johns. What was that relationship? And tell me who was Vernon Johns? Smith discusses his relationship with Vernon Johns and how he was the first Black preacher to have a sermon in the magazine, Best Sermons. Johns, Vernon, 1892-1965 ; The Second Century of Freedom Birmingham (Ala.) ; New Pilgrim Baptist Church 2035 Being Arrested Twice and Going to Jail I know that you were involved in a lot of the demonstrations. Can you remember the first time you were involved in a demonstration? Smith discusses how he and his constituents went to jail and how the famous picture of him, Dr. King, and Reverend Porter came to be. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; John Porter ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.) 2520 Bull Connor's Attitude Toward the Movement Well, in terms of the way that the demonstrations were acted out, we know that Bull Connor played a prominent role, some even say in the success of the Movement because of the way in which he responded to the demonstrations. Smith recalls how Bull Connor helped propel the Movement forward because of his abusive treatment. Civil rights movement ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 2712 Recruiting Children to Join the Movement During those days of planning, what was the typical day like, during say between April and May of 1963, planning for this confrontation? Smith recalls how they would go to schools to recruit children and many of the children wanted to go to jail to support the cause. A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Children's March 3005 Memories of the Bombing at Dr. King's House and the A.G. Gaston Motel What's your most vivid memory of that particular period? Smith discusses how he was present when Dr. King's house and the A.G. Gaston Motel were bombed. A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Ensley (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States 3304 Bombings at the Shores House and Getting Shot in the Leg Was this the worst that you had seen in Birmingham during the struggle as far as violence was concerned? Smith recalls how he was present when Arthur Shores's house was bombed the first time and how he was shot in the leg by the police. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Birmingham (Ala.). Fire and Rescue Service Department ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States 3641 Telling Birmingham's Story Obviously, you've had a lot of involvement and you have a lot of information about the Movement. Smith tells how the people who lived through the Movement need to do a better job of telling Birmingham's story and all that they encountered. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil rights movement Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) 3989 Conclusion of Interview Well, we are hopeful that this is the beginning of doing exactly what you are suggesting because what we are doing is talking to people like yourself and others who were involved and getting their parts of the story. Interview is concluded. Oral History Rev. N. H. Smith discusses being a charter member of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights, and later serving as secretary. He was an active demonstrator, including marching with Dr. King and Rev. Porter. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Rev. N. H. Smith for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is July 26, 1995. Rev. Smith, I want to thank you for taking your time out to come and sit with us today. SMITH: My pleasure. HUNTLEY: I want to start just by asking some general questions about background. What part of the state were your parents from? SMITH: Well, my father was from Monroe County and my mother was from Sumter County. HUNTLEY: And you were born? SMITH: In Brewton, Alabama which is in the southern part of the state. HUNTLEY: Right. How many brothers and sisters did you have? SMITH: Three sisters and one brother. HUNTLEY: And where did you fit? SMITH: I' ; m the third child. HUNTLEY: The third child. Tell me a bit about your parents. What about their education and their occupation? SMITH: Well, my father told me that he went to Selma University when he became a man. The schooling that he had up until that point was 6th grade. And, then he went to Selma University in 1918, I think it was, and stayed until he graduated from high school. And, you know, that was a great achievement in those days. HUNTLEY: Right. And he was a minister? SMITH: Yes. And my mother went to Mary Holmes Seminary in West Point, Mississippi. Maybe that name has changed. But Mary Holmes was in West Point, Mississippi. So, she graduated from junior college there. Well, she expressed many times that when she went to Monroeville to teach and perhaps school was where my father was principal, that you know, people used to run up to her and say, oh, Mrs. Smith, what you going to do with all that education, because most of the teachers in those days, had not gone that far in college. And to finish high school, you know, it was the equivalent of maybe to masters today. I think the curriculum was better and I think they were better educated. HUNTLEY: So as a young person growing up, you were in fact, your parents being educated individuals and really being upstanding citizens in the community, that sort of laid foundation for you. What about your education? SMITH: Well, I' ; ve never gone to public school. There was a school in Monroeville called the Bethlehem Industrial Academy which was owned by the Association. HUNTLEY: What association? SMITH: Bethlehem Association, Baptist. I think at one time it was called the Colored Bethlehem District Association. HUNTLEY: I see. SMITH: My community and this association, that district and all, they were quite interested in education. It was something that they promoted. And, I am told that at some point, percentage wise, you had maybe the highest number of college people from that area in the Black community. Percentage wise. HUNTLEY: This is in Brewton? SMITH: No. See, my father was called to a church, The Morning Star Church in Monroeville, Alabama. At the time of my birth, he was the principal of a school in Brewton, Alabama called the Evergreen District School. So, I was born there. And, then the following year, we moved to Monroeville, which was his home county. HUNTLEY: And, how long did you live in Monroeville? SMITH: I left there when I was 16 and I went to Selma University. Selma University at that time, you could begin in kindergarten and go through your bachelor' ; s divinity' ; s program there. So I went there in the 11th grade. I finished high school and college at Selma University. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about those days in terms of just your schooling, the way that you laid in foundation at Selma University as a high school and a college student? SMITH: Well, one of the things that I' ; ve reflected on many times, chapel was mandatory. The second period of every day we went to chapel. And they would have some accomplished people from time to time who would come in and perhaps the most memorable one was Dr. Ralph (inaudible) Gilbert from Savannah, Georgia, whose father at one time was president of Selma University. And he was a tremendous mind. He had involved himself a great deal in drama and he pastored the First African Baptist Church in Savannah, Georgia, and that church, it has always been (inaudible) oldest Black church and this kind of thing. But I remember him and some other guys, accomplished me who would come in from time to time. The literary society met every Tuesday. They had Baptist Training Union every Wednesday during the chapel hour. You had many things going on at that school that would give you some exposure to the arts and the sciences. Everybody who graduated from high school had to be in a Shakespearean play. It was a rich experience and fortunately or unfortunately, many of us, maybe in this state, who had the experience of attending, maybe we don' ; t recognize the richness of that institution. If not now, at least at that point in time. HUNTLEY: You being a high school student, really on a college campus, per se. I remember when I went from elementary school to high school, you always looked forward to going up the hill to the high school. How was that transition from your high school experiences then to Selma University, although you' ; re still at the same place? SMITH: Well, with the exposure to people who are already in college, I guess that enhanced the whole situation. It was just one big campus. However, it was very strict. Boys were allowed to visit the girls four times a month. They would give you first and third Saturdays in the afternoon. They would give you a few minutes after (inaudible) Missionary Society met on the second Sunday in each month. And, then you would have a social once a month, at night in the chapel. So I mean you could just sit and talk to your girlfriend. HUNTLEY: You mean there were no dorms, no cooperative dorms? SMITH: No. You could go to the dorm on the first and third Saturday afternoons. I don' ; t know, maybe they would allow you an hour. But you know, we found a way to talk to the girls. HUNTLEY: What did you do after Selma University? SMITH: Well, while I was at Selma I started preaching. And that same year I had served a brief period in Mobile, then February of ' ; 49 I was asked to serve as an assistant in Clanton, Alabama. Maybe before ' ; 49 was out, or sometime in ' ; 50, I was called to Tabernacle Baptist Church in my home county, in Beatrice, Alabama. I stayed in Clanton until 1953. I met my wife in Clanton and we got married in 1951. Well, the Sunday I announced I was going to get married, the pastor of the church announced that he was retiring, and the church called me as full pastor all in the same Sunday. So I stayed there and I left Beatrice going to the Shiloh church in Montevallo. So, at that point, I had two churches. Union Church in Clanton and the Shiloh church in Montevallo. HUNTLEY: How would you handle the two churches? SMITH: Well, they were on different Sundays. HUNTLEY: First and third, second and fourth? SMITH: Yes, and, then in 1953 I was called to Birmingham. So I have been in Birmingham ever since. HUNTLEY: Since 1953? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: When you arrived in Birmingham in ' ; 53 where did you live? SMITH: Well, I lived with one of the deacons who that same year started to preaching, Rev. George Harris. And I must have lived at his house for eight months until we got a parsonage built. And, then I moved in the parsonage on First Street South. HUNTLEY: Was that at New Pilgrim? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: What was Birmingham like. What was it like coming from Montevallo to Birmingham and your experiences in other, smaller towns? SMITH: Well, Birmingham was a large city. But you had a lot of country people in a large city. HUNTLEY: Right. You had a lot of migration from the rural to the urban. SMITH: Yes. Simply because of jobs and this kind of thing. It was a tremendous challenge and I guess a great deal of inspiration came as well as, I would see him as my closest mentor at that time was Rev. Charles H. Parker, pastor of 32nd Street Church, here in the city. I met him when I first went to Selma because he pastored the West Trinity church in Selma. So, he was quite helpful. He suggested that if you' ; re really going to lead people, you got to have a strong backbone. You' ; ve got to be willing to make decisions and not worry about who might become angry or whatever. So, and even within my own congregation there were those who would say now, the chairman of our deacons said to me, Charlie Moody. You know he said, " ; We want a pastor, we want a strong pastor." ; And I was only 22 years old. HUNTLEY: 22 years old, coming to a city to lead a congregation? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: In 1953, of course, Birmingham was a rather interesting place. In 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision takes place. The NAACP is operating in the state, did you get involved immediately with the NAACP or with any organizations that was community-based outside of the church? SMITH: Not really. I came in, I was trying to get established. It was during this period, however, not long after that the NAACP was outlawed which gave birth to the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. HUNTLEY: But just prior to that the Montgomery Bus Boycott took place. SMITH: Yes. It started in ' ; 55. HUNTLEY: And, then in ' ; 56 the state outlawed the operation of the NAACP which leads to the birth of the Alabama Christian Movement and you were, in fact, a charter member of the Movement. Can you tell me just a bit about how that all transpired? SMITH: Well, Rev. Shuttlesworth and I, by the way, he went to Selma University, also. HUNTLEY: Were you there together at the same time? SMITH: Yes. We didn' ; t talk about civil rights when we were at Selma University. But, we came to Birmingham the same year. So, as well as Rev. Norwood, who also went to Selma University. Rev. W. J. Davis went to Selma University. So several of the men in the city went to Selma University. Rev. J. Salary went to Selma University. Many, many guys. I remember we went to Hot Springs together. Our mid-winter meeting of the National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc. HUNTLEY: Hot Springs, Georgia? SMITH: Hot Springs, Arkansas. So, I said, I told Fred, I said, " ; Come on, ride with me." ; Well, I talked him into it. So we went and we talked a lot about conditions and this kind of thing. HUNTLEY: What kind of conditions existed at this time? SMITH: Well, Birmingham was a hard town. I' ; ve expressed it sometime that Birmingham was sort of like what they work with. It was hard like steel and dirty like coal. Rigid segregation. Mr. Conner was sort of " ; the man" ; and you were limited in your movements. One White policeman could speak, in most instances to a crowd of 25-30 Blacks and " ; (inaudible) you boys move off the corner." ; Something like that. And they would more than likely move. But now it would take 25 of them to make two of us move. It' ; s an interesting scenario when you think about it. You reflect on it. There were certain elevators that you could not ride. You had designated elevators for Black people to ride. However, White people could ride on all of them, but you couldn' ; t ride on all of them. And, all, when you look at a whole lot of things were so silly. HUNTLEY: So now you have these two young ministers new to the city, who' ; s headed to Hot Springs, Arkansas and you' ; re discussing this kind of information? SMITH: Yes. We talked about it. Because I remember that Fred has quoted that we were, maybe coming down the mountain over there and I think I said, " ; Fred, White people are always talking about our way of life, our way of life." ; And I remember saying, " ; Hell, we' ; re here too." ; This kind of thing. So he has expressed, he said that many times. But this is the way we felt. I was not, I guess my upbringing made me interested in trying to do something about the conditions of the race, but I wouldn' ; t call myself any kind of pioneer in the sense of being aggressively involved to be a leader or anything like that. We talked about it. We worked together. We shared our ideas and whatever manifesto that we came up with. And, we set this mass meeting, but you need to keep in mind there was a Jefferson County Betterment Association before. HUNTLEY: Before the Alabama Christian Movement? SMITH: Yes. With Dr. E. W. Williams in Fairfield, I think was elected president. But, nothing was being done. HUNTLEY: Was this simply an organization? SMITH: Well, it was sort of patterned after the MIA. HUNTLEY: And the MIA was? SMITH: It was the organization in Montgomery and... HUNTLEY: That led the bus boycott? SMITH: Yes. But nothing was being done. This is partly the reason I would say the Alabama Christian Movement was started because nothing was really going on. HUNTLEY: I sort of distracted you when you were talking about you and Fred headed to Hot Springs. What was the trip to Hot Springs about? SMITH: It was the mid-winter meeting of the National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc. HUNTLEY: Did that meeting have any impact upon what the discussion that you guys were having on the way up? SMITH: No. HUNTLEY: Were there any organizational efforts done during that meeting? SMITH: No. You know when I think about, you would go like from here to Tuscaloosa and down through Columbus, Mississippi and across the state really into Arkansas. And, you really gained so much of the experiences of just making the trip. You know you couldn' ; t stop at restaurants and all. You had to be extremely careful in buying your gasoline and this kind of thing. HUNTLEY: Did you ever encounter any difficulties in traveling between Birmingham and other places in the south? SMITH: Well, I' ; ve been denied the use of restrooms and, then there have been times when they were putting in gas and I would say, " ; Where' ; s your restroom?" ; And they would say, " ; We don' ; t have one for Colored people," ; they would say, because Black, the word Black had not come into vogue. So many times I would say, " ; Well, that' ; s okay, stop the gas right there." ; And I would pay him for whatever gas that he had put in and go on somewhere else. HUNTLEY: What do you mean you wouldn' ; t buy any... SMITH: I wouldn' ; t let him fill up my tank. HUNTLEY: But when you were going to someplace else, where would that some place else be? SMITH: Well, anywhere across the south, particularly across the south. HUNTLEY: But if you couldn' ; t use the facilities... SMITH: You know that became a strategy then. You know, if we find out they had a restroom, and if they didn' ; t have a restroom, you just go on somewhere else. HUNTLEY: Now, in ' ; 56 when the actual Movement has started, when the organization of the Movement as a result of the NAACP being outlawed, what was your role? SMITH: Well, I served as secretary. I was elected secretary of the Alabama Christian Movement. HUNTLEY: Tell me something about just those initial meetings. SMITH: Well, during that period of time, tensions were high. It was that same year the Autherine Lucy situation. It was that same year that the Clinton, Tennessee school thing was going on that same year. I think it was that same year, well, I remember John Temple Graves who was a columnist for the Birmingham Post Herald, the morning after the, this must have been June 6, 1956, in his column I think he said something about " ; no time for sergeants." ; Rev. Shuttlesworth and myself were seen as sergeants and the other men who had been elected head of the Jefferson County Betterment Association, they were seen as more like generals. HUNTLEY: Was that because they were older? SMITH: This is the way at least we interpreted it. HUNTLEY: So were there ever any conflicts between the two groups? SMITH: Well, not necessarily conflicts. Many of us were castigated the following day after we organized because some of the people present in the organization were members of the Baptist Ministers Conference and Rev. J. L. Ware had been the president of the conference and back in the days of the bombings in Birmingham, he had been a voice to speak out against that. But he was not chosen in this setting. HUNTLEY: What were your first efforts as an organization after the Movement started? What were you attempting to do? SMITH: Well, we, the buses, the schools. HUNTLEY: The hiring of police, is that one? SMITH: I think that is one of the items you know. I would have to go back and look in the record because there were so many things, you know, the airport. I don' ; t know, that might have been my case, I don' ; t know. Because different ones. But you had buses, you had the schools and I' ; m trying to think wasn' ; t that in 1957? HUNTLEY: ' ; 57 was when Shuttlesworth attempted to... SMITH: He and Rev. Pfeiffer. HUNTLEY: Right. At Phillips High school and was attacked. SMITH: Yes. And, then in 1958, the buses. HUNTLEY: So, really usually when we look at the Birmingham story we talk about buses, we talk about schools, later on we' ; ll be talking about the parks. SMITH: I think during somewhere along in there, they must have closed the parks. HUNTLEY: They closed the parks in either ' ; 60 or ' ; 61. Now, you being the secretary of the Movement, that means that you attended all of the mass meetings I assume. SMITH: Unless I was out of town preaching or something like that. HUNTLEY: Tell me. I' ; ve asked people this question over and over again. What was a mass meeting like? Can you just describe it? SMITH: Well, a mass meeting was sort of like church. We sang, we prayed, we received the latest word on what' ; s happening, not only in the community, but across the state, across the nation. We gave money. We kept hope alive. And, you know, after so long, the police department started sending policemen to our meetings. At first we resented it, and maybe we resented it all the while. But after a while, so what. HUNTLEY: You were given a nickname. You were said to be, they called you " ; fireball." ; SMITH: Well, that didn' ; t have anything to do with the Movement. HUNTLEY: It had nothing to do with the Movement? SMITH: No. Deacon Davis, Deacon Richmond Davis who had a radio program on Sunday mornings, I preached at St. Peter' ; s Primitive Baptist Church where his membership was, in Bessemer. Dr. W. A. Clark was the pastor. So he invited me out to preach and it was a tent night meeting. So the Sunday between the weeks on his radio show, he said, " ; You got to come to the revival this week." ; Rev. N. H. Smith, Jr., pastor of New Pilgrim Baptist Church is preaching and he' ; s a fireball." ; That' ; s how that came and that' ; s before the Movement started here and people just never forgot that this was his expression. HUNTLEY: You had some relationship with Vernon Johns. What was that relationship? And tell me who was Vernon Johns? SMITH: Vernon Johns was the most brilliant man, I guess, one of the most brilliant that I' ; ve ever met. He thought about things seemingly that the other people never thought about. And we put together, he shared with me an idea and I agreed to it and we put together a magazine called The Second Century of Freedom a journal of goals. HUNTLEY: You were co-authors of that? SMITH: Well, yes. HUNTLEY: Was this in Montgomery? SMITH: No. No. No. He would come here. That was after he had left Montgomery. He' ; d come to preach at New Pilgrim Church and we would talk and he had an unusual respect for me. And he finally told me why. I would differ with him and this made him really interested in what my ideas were. HUNTLEY: He has a very strong personality? SMITH: Oh, yes. I have one or two copies of the first issue of the magazine. I don' ; t have a copy of the second one. I don' ; t know what happen to it. But the first one I do have. HUNTLEY: I would be interested in seeing that. So, how long did that relationship last then? SMITH: Well, let me see. I' ; m trying to see... HUNTLEY: How did you meet him? Because he was sort of the person in Montgomery prior to the bus boycott, is that right? SMITH: I' ; m trying to see when I met him. I don' ; t really know. I know maybe in the late 50s I had an opportunity to meet him and we struck up a friendship. He stayed at my house many times. There was a member in our church who did some typing for him. I remember, I know one of the great sermons of his was " ; What to do with life." ; Part of that sermon might have been written in my house. He did it at Atlanta University commencement one of those years, " ; What to do with life." ; Accept it, affirm it, immortalize it. He was a tremendous force. He was the first Black preacher to have a sermon printed in a publication called Best Sermons. " ; Transfigured Moments" ; was the title of the message. Maybe that happened in 1923. HUNTLEY: 1923? SMITH: I think. HUNTLEY: I know that you were involved in a lot of the demonstrations. Can you remember the first time you were involved in a demonstration? And how you felt about demonstration at that point? SMITH: Well, you know, demonstrations were a necessary tool in those days, but for some people it was a great deal of fun. For me it was serious business. Going to jail was no fun for me. HUNTLEY: Do you remember the first time you went to jail? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances? SMITH: I was arrested on 6th Avenue North. Rev. Porter, Rev. King, A. D. King, Rev. Fisher, I was trying to think of the minister' ; s name who pastored the church in Ensley, the AME Zion Church, I think. We were arrested. HUNTLEY: So this is the first time you were arrested? This picture then is the picture that is sent all over the world, right? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: Where the three of you are arrested and, in fact, isn' ; t that the monument that' ; s in the park now? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: Depicting that particular incident? SMITH: I don' ; t know that happened in your meeting where they wanted, they decided to make it generic, but I said something about it. Somebody said to me that history is not generic. HUNTLEY: What do you mean, now this, something happened in a meeting? SMITH: Apparently, it appears that something was resented about our... HUNTLEY: Now, wait. Let me, just for the purpose of the people who are not familiar with what you are suggesting. You are saying the march where the three of you were arrested, you were kneeling, this picture was taken. As a result of that, that picture went all over the world and became a very famous photograph. SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: The mayor, just prior to the refurbishing of Kelly Ingram Park wanted that particular picture placed in statute in the park, and it is there, but you said that is generic. So what makes it generic. SMITH: That' ; s what we were told. HUNTLEY: Aren' ; t you and Rev. King and Rev. Porter depicted in that... SMITH: But it' ; s supposed to be representative. I don' ; t think our names are even mentioned there. HUNTLEY: Well, aren' ; t your likeness there? SMITH: I have to go back and look at it because they sent me my head. Your pastor had the original sculpture. They sent him that. HUNTLEY: His head? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: And they sent you your head? SMITH: Yes. And they were making the other sculpture out here generic. HUNTLEY: Meaning that it represented everybody. So, in other words, it' ; s not historically accurate? SMITH: No. HUNTLEY: Why was that done? SMITH: I don' ; t know. I don' ; t know more than the rumor mills and this kind of thing. But... HUNTLEY: But we do know that, that in fact, it did depict the three of you. You should really be there. Your head should not be in your office, it should be on your body at Kelly Ingram Park? SMITH: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: That then being the first time that you were arrested, how long did you remain in jail? SMITH: Oh, I guess, maybe 36 hours. I mean it was exciting at first. HUNTLEY: Why was it exciting at first? SMITH: Well, you know, everybody was caught up in the moment. The eyes of the whole world was on Birmingham. This was Palm Sunday in 1963. I had not been arrested before. I avoided being arrested. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide that this time that you would be arrested? SMITH: Well, it was something that we talked about. A. D. and I would talk about it. Rev. Porter and I would talk about it and we said, okay, we' ; re going to do it. And, we did. HUNTLEY: So you actually led a contingent. So was everyone arrested or were just some? SMITH: Everybody with our group. Ms. Katy Jefferson was in our group. Mrs. Pinkie Franklin was in our group. I think some of Deacon Givner' ; s children was a deacon in our church, they were part of this group. HUNTLEY: What were the conditions like in jail? SMITH: Well, you know, it was clean. HUNTLEY: How was the food? SMITH: Well, compared to... HUNTLEY: Compared to momma' ; s cooking? SMITH: Well, they give you plenty of Bama Jelly, that' ; s one thing you had plenty of. They would get you up like 3:00 in the morning and see to it that the place was disinfected. They would disinfect the place. It was rather interesting. And, then after a while you can' ; t believe. I guess that claustrophobia would start working on you and so somebody was there at the jail and asked for me. So I just told them, I said, well, although it was supposed to work out differently, I just told somebody to tell one of my members to come get me out. HUNTLEY: So did you leave before Rev. Porter? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you left Rev. Porter? How did he feel? SMITH: I think King, I think A. D. left before we did. HUNTLEY: Is that right? SMITH: Yes. He went on to the mass meeting. It was a big joke about it. I think Dr. King was telling everybody about these three ministers were over there in jail and this kind of thing and A. D. walked in the mass meeting. Because you know, most people who went to jail committed themselves to stay five days. HUNTLEY: Were you arrested at any other time? SMITH: The following Sunday from Thurgood Church. That was Easter Sunday. HUNTLEY: Right. SMITH: He was arrested Good Friday. So the same three. And I think maybe Rev. Lindsey who pastored Thurgood Church. HUNTLEY: Well, in terms of the way that the demonstrations were acted out, we know that Bull Conner played a prominent role, some say even in the success of the Movement because of the way in which he responded to the demonstrations. SMITH: I would say so. HUNTLEY: Would you kind of elaborate on that? SMITH: I think his attitude made us more determined. Whereas the Chief of Police in Albany, Georgia was much more, you know, he would just arrest everybody. And, Albany had maybe the largest number of arrests up until the time of Birmingham, maybe 1600 or 2000. But he would just arrest him. Well, when we got here, well, the Sunday that we went, on Palm Sunday, I remember Bull Conner was directing everything. And I remember him crying out " ; There' ; s Smith." ; Well, see, he had not been able, I hadn' ; t been arrested before that time. HUNTLEY: But he knew you? SMITH: Yes. Because all of the, he knew that I was a part of everything. He' ; d arrested Pfeiffer, he' ; d arrested Rev. Shuttlesworth. He had arrested several people. HUNTLEY: He had arrested all of the officers probably with the exception of a few? SMITH: I don' ; t think all of the officers, but like, the bus riders. I think that happened in 1958. HUNTLEY: Right. SMITH: Where they were arrested. And I think there was something that had to do with an appeal once where Rev. Shuttlesworth and Rev. Pfeiffer had to stay in jail, maybe 35 days. But anyway,...HUNTLEY: You had made a conscious decision though that or the Movement had made a conscious decision that you would not be arrested at that particular time? SMITH: No. No. Dr. King had always said, an individual, you know there was some people who would try to make you feel ashamed if you had not gone to jail. It was sort of a badge. HUNTLEY: A badge of honor? SMITH: Yes. But he said, I don' ; t want anybody to go to jail unless they make up their minds to go to jail. So, by and large, I made up my mind to go to jail. HUNTLEY: During those days of planning, what was the typical day like, during say between April and May of 1963, planning for this confrontation? SMITH: Well, we met in room 30 at A. G. Gaston Motel. It was a matter of strategizing. We still would go, well, I remember during that period sometime you' ; re talking about you may have four churches in the city with a mass meeting going at the same time and Dr. King would have to go to all these. And we would ask for more people just like calling for sinners to come to the Lord to get ready to go to jail. And there were those who came forward and those who came forward, they were taken into a room and they would talk about non-violence. If you got a knife, you got to give that up. And there were those who said they could not afford to be arrested because they weren' ; t non-violent and, if the man would rough them up, you know. HUNTLEY: Late April, early May, there were times when there were not really a lot of people involved. SMITH: Well, it built up. See we started, it must have been April 3, 1963. And for six weeks or more. We had children crying to go to jail. HUNTLEY: Right. But prior to using the children or getting the children involved, there was some... (inaudible) Young, and Dorothy Cotton and others, talked about why not utilize the children, because as you said, children, they were ranting and raving to get involved. SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: And, then they started to go out to the schools? SMITH: Yes. Well, during this period, along with Andrew Young and I forgot now, who else, we would meet at the Church of the Advent on 28th Street in a kind of negotiating session. See all the negotiations did not take place at John Drew' ; s house. Some took place at The Church of the Advent. I' ; m trying to think of his name, who headed the Birmingham Realty Company, what was his name? HUNTLEY: Sid Smyer(inaudible) SMITH: Yes, yes. Because I know that we met there once and he used the term " ; We' ; re not going to become your social secretary or something like that. I think Bishop, the Bishop George Murray, I think he was, and I think maybe Bishop Carpenter, but Andrew. Because I remember Andrew and I were talking one day. And I said this to Andrew and I meant it. I got the feeling some days that some people had no problem if the demonstrations went on forever. It was fun to them. To a lot of people. HUNTLEY: Were these people that were closely associated with King? Or generally people (inaudible) SMITH: I mean people who came to the Movement. I mean it was fun, you know, for them. And, then, you know they started talking about maybe branching out. I think some people did seek to integrate churches and I have met some White people who said they were a part of the contingent group that see to it that Blacks did not... HUNTLEY: Were you ever a part of those contingencies that went to White churches? SMITH: No. HUNTLEY: What' ; s your most vivid memory of that particular period? SMITH: Well, I guess, well, there were so many. But, I guess it was the night that they bombed Rev. King' ; s home in Ensley and A. G. Gaston Motel. And, how we stayed up all night long trying to keep people from rioting any more. It was on a Saturday night and it was, I think Wyatt Walker, his wife, the Woods brothers, Bernard Lee, A. D. King. Because we heard the bomb go off at the motel. HUNTLEY: Where were you when the bomb went off? SMITH: When the bomb went off at A. D.' ; s house, I was having something to eat at Gaston' ; s restaurant. So, somebody said they had just bombed Rev. King' ; s house. So immediately I went to his house. And when I got out there, there was an angry crowd of Black folk. Fire trucks was there and policemen and all. Then while standing, looking, we heard the bomb go off. Somebody immediately said it was the motel. So then, we come back to the motel. And, when we get back to the motel, all hell had broken loose. HUNTLEY: What was the scene like? SMITH: Cars were overturned. Some cabs I think were burning. So we sought to quiet them down. The troopers were basically stationed I think on 17th Street, I think. And, they didn' ; t join the fray until after we had quieted them down. Because I remember Mr. Lingo himself when we got everybody sort of quiet and we was coming, I was coming back, up 15th Street back to the motel. I remember him grabbing me. I had on a sport shirt and he grabbed me and stuck a Carbine under my neck and he came out with this, what is it... HUNTLEY: Expletives? SMITH: Yes. These expletives. And, how he' ; d blow my head off. And that was a Birmingham policeman trying to arrest me. I didn' ; t know who he was. He just said, " ; These men have been out here all night (inaudible)." ; Because at one point there was a house on 15th Street that was burning and we made a wall of our bodies, joined hands, that the fire truck could get in because they didn' ; t let anybody in. That little, what is that little tank, that tank would only set people off. And a lot of times... HUNTLEY: This is the tank that Bull Conner rode in? SMITH: Yes. So we made walls with our bodies so that the fire truck could come in. I remember Captain Haley was struck that night with a brick. HUNTLEY: (inaudible) police force? SMITH: Yes. Captain Lee was out there also. It was a terrible night. HUNTLEY: Was this the worst that you had seen in Birmingham during the struggle as far as violence was concerned? SMITH: I guess there was equal violence, equal to non-violence on September the 15th. HUNTLEY: When the 16th Street Church was bombed? SMITH: Yes. Because, see, I got hit at, when Shores' ; house was bombed the first time, in my leg. And,... HUNTLEY: What do you mean you " ; got hit?" ; SMITH: Well, it was a, I was shot in my leg. And, you couldn' ; t tell at first until, then you saw the swelling and when I got to the hospital... HUNTLEY: You were at Shores' ; house? SMITH: Yes. We were out there. Trying to get people quieted down. So when Rev. King' ; s voice, A. D. King, when his voice, you know, (inaudible) he say, " ; Hey man, come on, let' ; s talk to these people." ; So I went to step on a car. Well, the policemen were around the car. So I was going to get up on the car and talk. And just as I got ready to get up there, I felt this sting on my leg. And, I went to emergency at the University later on the next day. Because I, you know, it was just bothering me. And, Dr. Hamilton finally, I mean he couldn' ; t... HUNTLEY: Was the bullet lodged in your leg? SMITH: No. No. No. It hit and it chipped the bone. HUNTLEY: But it didn' ; t lodge itself? SMITH: No. No. No. So, finally the following day, Dr. Hamilton, they took me to Holy Family and he, it was really sore then. He had to irrigate it and it was, he couldn' ; t deaden around the place because, I just had to grin and bear it. HUNTLEY: So each time there was a disturbance, then some of you attempted to control the crowd. SMITH: We would always, and even when his house was bombed a few weeks later, I was back up there on crutches. HUNTLEY: A. D. King' ; s? SMITH: No. No. No. Mr. Shores. HUNTLEY: Shores? SMITH: They bombed his house twice, within weeks. And, I went up there and the guy that I rode up there with, when they got to shooting in those trees... HUNTLEY: Who' ; s shooting in the trees? SMITH: I' ; d guess it was the policemen or somebody. Everybody scattered that night. Somebody was killed. This was the second bombing. HUNTLEY: Somebody was killed? SMITH: In that second bombing. HUNTLEY: In the bombing? In the house? SMITH: No. No. No. Who had gathered. You see, crowds would always gather. HUNTLEY: Right. SMITH: And, so, crowds gathered that night. Well, this fellow got out of the car. I said, " ; Well, I can' ; t move fast, maybe I' ; ll stay here." ; So I was sitting in the car and, then when everybody started running I could hear those bullets. Everybody started running. Whatever that street is right down from his house. Whatever that street is, the car was headed east. When I heard all of the running, I got down on the floor of the car. And I stayed down for maybe a couple of hours. HUNTLEY: A couple of hours? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: You mean there was something going on for a couple of hours? SMITH: Oh, yes. Man, this hill was covered. HUNTLEY: With? SMITH: Policemen and people. HUNTLEY: Was there any physical confrontation between them? The police and-- SMITH: Well, in some instances, but I wasn' ; t on Center Street. HUNTLEY: You were off the street? SMITH: I was on the Avenue. SMITH: And, you know, I guess they had remembered the time before and, because we worked late into the night that night trying to quiet folks down. But they wanted to mess up whatever White. You know that was the truck route, I think, was what? HUNTLEY: Highway 78 was the truck route. SMITH: Getting to 78. And you come to the Black community, man they would attack, and threw you off the trucks. It was a time that particular night. HUNTLEY: Obviously, you' ; ve had a lot of involvement and you have a lot of information to give about the Movement. Of course we won' ; t have time to hear all of that today, but I just want to ask you, is there any other single thing that we have not covered that you would just like to add to this tape? SMITH: Well, and I' ; m partly to blame. The Birmingham story has not been told. You' ; ve had people to come here, want to talk to people, but to me, the real history of this city, during this period cannot be told by somebody interviewing somebody. The real history had to be told by people who lived here, who felt the tensions of the times, who, someone who knows the meaning of segregation at it' ; s worst. Someone who say the day-to-day situation, would be able to connect events and this kind of thing, and to be able to give some in depth insight into the attitude of the people, and the kind of people who were really involved. The real heroes of the Movement have been totally overlooked. It' ; s just, you know, I haven' ; t read anything with any kind of justice. Taylor Branch does a fairly good job. But, to me, you can not deal with history in the distance, you know. History has to be sort of like, I guess this thing that Michael Jackson is talking about, " ; His Story." ; And, to me, this is the only way for it to be done. I think in the Birmingham situation, you need a group to work on the Birmingham story. Lola Hendricks, Georgia Price, you know, to name some of those still with us. James Armstrong, the Woods brothers. You know, to sit down and what one may forget, the other would remember and so that this real, this story can be told. Because Birmingham to me is still a unique place. At that point in time or when Birmingham started it was 1871, you know, people could come to this place, you know, two railroads crossed. And, coal and steel mills and iron ore and this kind of stuff. And people left the country in droves and came to Birmingham. And, you didn' ; t have to have brains, mainly brawn. And, people, started making this good money and it' ; s been in the later years that Birmingham started taking on some sophistication and this kind of thing. But, it' ; s unique and someone, a group of persons. To me, no one person and having been secretary, I just should have kept a day-to-day diary and I didn' ; t. HUNTLEY: Do you have records that you' ; ve kept? SMITH: Well, well, you know, they was talking about getting an injunction against the organization. So,...HUNTLEY: Who was talking about getting an injunction? SMITH: The authorities. Do the same thing to the Alabama Christian Movement. You see, they always want to go after your records. So, they came to me and I don' ; t know where most of the records are. And if they would come to me, then I could say this truthfully. Oh, I guess, maybe Rev. Gardner or some of them have the records of those years. I may have in some of my papers. I may have some notes. HUNTLEY: Well, we are hopeful that this the beginning of doing exactly what you are suggesting because what we are doing is talking to people like yourself and others who were involved and getting their parts of the story. And, hopefully, we will be able to piece some things together eventually. So, we' ; ll need some more assistance from you, of course. Thank you very much for taking your time out today. SMITH: Okay. HUNTLEY: I' ; d like to do it again. SMITH: All right. Good. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=NHSmith1995.xml NHSmith1995.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rev. N. H. Smith
Description
An account of the resource
Rev. N. H. Smith discusses being a charter member of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights, and later serving as secretary. He was an active demonstrator, including marching with Dr. King and Rev. Porter.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
19950726S
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights
Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1995-07-26
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/1b5db019f4d6ec8749c60f264a24067a.jpg
3774977930800a3231983800c5ae9344
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Horace Huntley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Milton Stollenwerck
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=MStollenwerck1997.xml
Interview Keyword
This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are
included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 June 4, 1997 Rev. Milton Stollenwerck Interviewed on June 4, 1997 19970604S 1:01:19 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Emily Reynolds Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Alabama A & ; M University Literacy tests (Election law) Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) National Association for the Advancement of Colored People Milton Stollenwerck Horace Huntley Video 1:|25(4)|41(2)|46(15)|60(17)|75(4)|91(4)|103(11)|124(15)|144(12)|156(12)|173(10)|185(13)|200(5)|206(4)|217(11)|226(5)|231(9)|251(7)|270(3)|298(10)|315(2)|337(5)|345(14)|356(9)|366(10)|385(14)|394(5)|407(11)|425(15)|439(8)|467(4)|475(2)|479(12)|494(4)|506(5)|524(4)|545(10)|552(10)|560(7)|578(10)|597(7)|610(1)|625(4)|634(10)|650(9)|660(4)|667(4)|680(11)|691(5)|704(15)|721(5)|733(10)|753(10)|764(7)|770(11)|780(2)|789(7)|801(5)|811(1)|819(8)|831(10) 0 https://youtu.be/j5oinhCIwqo YouTube video English 0 Interview Introduction This is an interview with Reverend Milton Stollenwerck for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute’s Oral History Project. I’m Dr. Horace Huntley presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is June 4, 1997. Interview Introduction 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 36 Childhood, Family, & ; Early Education I just want to talk initially, ask you a couple of questions about your background, your family, your mother and father. You were born in Birmingham? Rev. Stollenwerck discusses growing up in Birmingham, his early education, his family, and his family's education/employment. African American families ; African Americans--Education ; African Americans--Education (Secondary) ; Birmingham (Ala.) African Americans--Education--Southern States 685 Extracurricular Activities in Adolescence When you arrived at Parker, were you involved in any extracurricular activities? Rev. Stollenwerck discusses his participation in extracurricular activities while in school, including studying music with John Tuggle " ; Fess" ; Whatley. African Americans--Music ; African Americans--Southern States ; Elks (Fraternal order) African Americans--Education (Secondary) ; African Americans--Social life and customs 912 College/Master's Education & ; Early Career What did you do after high school? Rev. Stollenwerck discusses earning his bachelor's and master's degrees, his early career, and beginning his career as a teacher. African American teachers ; Alabama A & ; M University ; Alabama State University ; Miles College ; Upholstery trade African Americans--Education (Higher) ; African Americans--Employment 1145 Voter Registration & ; Literacy Test Of course, 1954 being the Brown decision, I’m sure you have memories of that. Were you a voter prior to the Brown decision? Rev. Stollenwerck describes registering to vote and being required to take a voter literacy test. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; African Americans--Politics and government--20th century ; Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Literacy tests (Election law) ; Voting--United States 1305 Involvement in the Alabama Christian Movement This then led, of course, to something that you are very familiar with, the Alabama Christian Movement. Rev. Stollenwerck describes his experience as a charter member of the Alabama Christian Movement. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; African Americans--Religion ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 African Americans--Civil rights ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights 1658 Experience as a Teacher What was your role as a young man at the time? Were you teaching at that point? Rev. Stollenwerck discusses his work as a teacher, and how his job intersected with the Civil Rights Movement. African American teachers and the community ; African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; African Americans--Employment ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Racism--United States--History--20th century African American teachers ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States 1801 Civil Rights Demonstrations and Youth Movement Dr. Huntley: But you also demonstrated. Rev. Stollenwerck: Yes, yes definitely, right there in the crowd. I would get with fellows like John Drew. Do you know John Drew? Rev. Stollenwerck discusses his involvement in Civil Rights Movement demonstrations, as well as his experience as a teacher during his students' involvement in the Movement. A. D. King ; African American youth ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement African Americans--Civil rights ; Black Youth Movement 2191 Bombing of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church You were a member of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. Rev. Stollenwerck describes his and his family's experience with the bombing of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. African American parents ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; African Americans--Crimes against ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Domestic terrorism Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 2816 Birmingham Community Reaction to Bombing What was Birmingham like after that? Rev. Stollenwerck discusses the Birmingham community reaction to the bombing at the Sixteenth Street Church as well as the church's membership and engagement in the time period following. African Americans--Religion ; Race relations in the United States ; Race relations--Religious aspects African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 3202 Reflection on Movement & ; African American Community We’ve covered a lot of territory and we’ve talked a lot about a lot of subjects. When we initially started we talked about schools and the way school systems were in the period of segregation verses where we are today. From your perspective, what has been the difference? Rev. Stollenwerck reflects on the long-term impact of the Civil Rights Movement, and African American identity and community in present-day. African American families ; African Americans--Civil rights ; African Americans--Segregation African American history ; African Americans--Race identity 3644 Interview Conclusion Reverend Stollenwerck you’ve been great. I appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to come and sit and talk with me. Oral History Rev. Milton Stollenwerck discusses being involved with the Alabama Christian Movement as a teacher in Birmingham. He was a member of 16th Street Baptist Church when it was bombed in 1963. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Reverend Milton Stollenwerck for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I' ; m Dr. Horace Huntley presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is June 4, 1997. Thank you Reverend Stollenwerck for taking time out of your schedule to come and sit and talk with me today about Birmingham and the movement. I just want to talk initially, ask you a couple of questions about your background, your family, your mother and father. You were born in Birmingham? STOLLENWERCK: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were your mother and father from Birmingham? STOLLENWERCK: Yes. HUNTLEY: Originally? STOLLENWERCK: Yes. HUNTLEY: Is that right? STOLLENWERCK: Yes. HUNTLEY: Well, where were their folks from? STOLLENWERCK: Selma and Greensboro. My mother' ; s mother came from Selma. My mother' ; s father came from Greensboro. Now on my daddy' ; s side both of them came from down around Greensboro. That' ; s Alabama. HUNTLEY: Right, ok, not North Carolina. So, you are Birmingham born, you' ; ve been here all your life. STOLLENWERCK: Yes sir. HUNTLEY: What community to did you grow up in? STOLLENWERCK: I was born and reared in the Smithfield community. HUNTLEY: Smithfield. Now, Smithfield of course is an old community and a very noted community. What was it like growing up in Smithfield? STOLLENWERCK: Well, Smithfield was a harsh part of unpaved roads, the railroad tracks, the Italian grocery stores on every corner. I suspect about the best thing we had in Smithfield was Parker High School. Of course, during that time for Blacks there was only one high school in the city of Birmingham. Now there, I don' ; t want to get ahead of you, but there we believed in academic excellence as opposed to what appears to be the situation now. Not at Parker High School, in the educational system period. Or systems. Somehow it seemed to have gotten removed from... HUNTLEY: Yeah, we want to talk about that in a little bit because I think that' ; s significant. That' ; s very significant to look at what Parker was like at one period in our history and then what our school system happens to look like now. Where did you start school? Where did you start first grade? STOLLENWERCK: At Lincoln, Lincoln Elementary School. HUNTLEY: Is there anything that stands out in your mind about your days at Lincoln? STOLLENWERCK: Well, we were disciplined, well-disciplined and it was none of this yeah and nah, you had to do it correctly ; yes ma' ; am, yes sir or no ma' ; am, no sir. And then you were prompted to excel. We couldn' ; t do less than to be our very best at Lincoln School. Of course I stayed there I think through the sixth grade and I was living in the middle of two school areas and I chose to go to Tuggle. I graduated from Tuggle. HUNTLEY: Why did you choose Tuggle versus the other school? Did Lincoln go to the 8th grade at that time? STOLLENWERCK: Yes. HUNTLEY: Ok, why did you choose Tuggle over Lincoln? STOLLENWERCK: Personal problems. When I got there I found things to my liking. HUNTLEY: Were these personal problems, problems in the school with other students or with teachers? STOLLENWERCK: Problems with the other students, more than anything else. HUNTLEY: Oh, ok. STOLLENWERCK: I didn' ; t particularly care for the environment and being reared by my grandmother she allowed me to change. I got up there and found out... you know believe it or not, all of the administration were, to borrow a [inaudible], they were gung ho on excellence and respect. HUNTLEY: At both schools? STOLLENWERCK: Yes, Yes. And responsibility, they believed if you said you were going to do something at 9:00, you did that at 9:00. My grandmother said if you have an appointment for 1:30, for example, you oughta be there at least by 1:15. Don' ; t be late. You don' ; t have a reason to be late. That' ; s in my bones. HUNTLEY: That promptness being a virtue. Let me ask you, just a minute about your mother and father. They were born here in Birmingham. Tell me about there educational background. STOLLENWERCK: They were high school graduates. HUNTLEY: Did they go to Parker, to Industrial High? STOLLENWERCK: Yes, yes. They, and I don' ; t know how to put this, my dad... now times were hard. My dad left and went to Cleveland, Ohio. He said that when he was established he would come back after his family ; two children, a boy and a girl and our mother. Something intervened there, he never got back. HUNTLEY: How old were you when he left? STOLLENWERCK: Very young. HUNTLEY: In elementary school? STOLLENWERCK: No, I hadn' ; t started school. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. STOLLENWERCK: Ok, my mother died when I was nine and that' ; s where my grandmother, my maternal grandmother, came into the picture. She really took care of us. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your mother and father do, as well as your grandmother? STOLLENWERCK: Well, I don' ; t know that my mother ever did any work. I' ; m almost sure she must have, but you understand now that I was just nine years old. My daddy was a mechanic for General Motors out in Cleveland. HUNTLEY: Did your grandmother work? STOLLENWERCK: She was a domestic, a domestic over on Highland or Southside. HUNTLEY: So, there were two of you, a boy and a girl. STOLLENWERCK: Yes. HUNTLEY: Was your sister older or younger than you? STOLLENWERCK: She was younger. HUNTLEY: And, your grandmother allowed you to go to Tuggle to finish elementary school. Is there anything that stands out in your mind about your experiences at Tuggle? STOLLENWERCK: (Laughing) For one reason or another I almost fell through the cracks. This is something I have not publicized really, for no particular reason. I started from time to time going to the Grand Theater, going to the Frollie Theater. HUNTLEY: In elementary school? STOLLENWERCK: Yes, when I should have been in school. There was a woman by the name of Carrie Bell McQueen, C.B. McQueen. She was an attendance officer and any time you were in there looking at the vaudeville in the Frollie and somebody caught sight of Ms. McQueen, all you had to do was say Ms. McQueen and they cleared that thing out. So, I began to loose to many days and Buddy Hudson, who was the principal at that time, sent me home. He wanted my grandmother to know what I was doing. When I got home she said well, I can' ; t go up there with you now I gotta work. So, we went to the neighbors house and used the telephone and Buddy Hudson said come to my house when you get off of work Mrs. Parker, you come to my house. HUNTLEY: Did he live in the community? STOLLENWERCK: Yes, he lived between my house and the school. We went up there that evening. Buddy Hudson said to me, " ; young man I don' ; t believe you want to go to school." ; At that time I don' ; t think it made much difference, to tell you the truth, but I said, " ; yes sir, yes sir I want to go to school." ; I' ; m gonna give you one more chance, the very next time you get involved in any kind of thing, you are out for good. And I looked at momma and she dropped her head and I could see a tear. I said I' ; m gonna do better than this. HUNTLEY: Made a decision right there. STOLLENWERCK: Made the decision right there, because it was hurting her too much and she had gone way out of the way to look out for me. I finished Tuggle. HUNTLEY: What grade were you in when that happened? Were you in sixth or seventh? STOLLENWERCK: Probably the seventh, hadn' ; t been up there I think too long. Then I began to get a hold of the situation and myself. HUNTLEY: When you arrived at Parker, were you involved in any extracurricular activities? STOLLENWERCK: I sang in the choir, I played in the band, I participated in several contests as they were sponsored by the, let me see, what is that, the Independent Benevolent Organization of Elks, I believe they call it. They still have their house down on 8th Avenue and 12th Street North. I went to several states with the Elks for their conventions, playing in the band. Under the direction of Fess Whatley. HUNTLEY: Oh, ok, so you studied under Fess Whatley. STOLLENWERCK: Yeah, but I played in the band under George Hudson, but for this special occasion, or these special occasions, we were under Fess Whatley. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Fess Whatley? Him personally? STOLLENWERCK: I thought the world of him. I got close to him because when I entered high school... well first of all, when I went to high school, instead of going to the main building there was a situation adjacent to the Lincoln Elementary School that they called the annex. The 9th grade students always went to the annex and then to the main building. When I was in the 10th grade at the main building, Fess had... he was John Tuggle Whatley, he had a brother who was Peter Bradford Whatley. They assigned me to Peter' ; s upholstery class. I was going in rather tattered. My clothes, and at one point Peter said I have a bunch of suits that I' ; ve discarded, you may have them if you want them. Now Melvin Caswell was the tailoring teacher and their rooms were next door to each other. So, Peter Whatley went to Melvin and told him my situation and gave those clothes to him and told him to alter them, since he was teaching tailoring. For one reason or another, it seemed to me that John Whatley took a liking to me. In fact we were so close that many folks on the staff thought that we were family. He was liberal ; we' ; re talking about Fess Whatley now, liberal, but forward and direct. And, everybody in fact on the campus was his children. When he spoke... HUNTLEY: Everybody listened. STOLLENWERCK: Every rat went in his hole. (Laughing) HUNTLEY: That' ; s very interesting. Of course Fess Whatley stands out as far as music is concerned and you having the opportunity to actually study with him is quite an accomplishment What did you do after high school? STOLLENWERCK: Well, I had learned upholstery. My grandmother was a domestic, as I told you. She did the laundry for those high powered Jews on Highland. On weekends I would go to their houses and rake leaves and wash windows and these kinds of things. After 3 years in Whatley' ; s upholstery class I thought I had learned enough to use that as my vocation. This lady called for me to come do some work around her house and I told my grandmother you tell her I' ; m not coming because I have a trade and I' ; m going into my trade. I went into business. In fact, when I graduated from high school I had five scholarships, music scholarships, but my financial circumstances wouldn' ; t allow me to participate in them. However, I did go out to Miles College. I stayed out there two quarters. I left Miles and went into business. Two years later I was hired by the Jefferson County Board of Education, under special circumstances, in the Veterans program. It was then that I started working on my college education. HUNTLEY: And did you do that at Miles? STOLLENWERCK: No. I stayed at Miles, as I said before, about two quarters and then I went to Alabama A & ; M. There I acquired service and earned the B.S. degree. HUNTLEY: While in the service? STOLLENWERCK: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, where did .... STOLLENWERCK: See I was hired under an emergency teaching certificate. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. STOLLENWERCK: And then, when I finished that some two years later I went to Alabama State. There I earned the M.A.E. degree. That' ; s the Master' ; s in education degree. HUNTLEY: Did you, after the 2 semesters at Miles, did you go to the military? STOLLENWERCK: No, no, I never went to the service. HUNTLEY: Oh, you never went to the service. I see. STOLLENWERCK: Well, see I got married at an early age. Well, WWII ended before, it ended in ' ; 45. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. STOLLENWERCK: I graduated from high school in ' ; 47. But, they kept me on the list for a long time, and every time they would call me to go to the service, I had another child. Finally they just left me alone. HUNTLEY: This is a period that they were supposedly integrating the armed forces at that time. STOLLENWERCK: Yeah, they started that under Truman. HUNTLEY: Yeah, of course 1954 being the Brown decision, I' ; m sure you have memories of that. Were you a voter prior to the Brown decision? STOLLENWERCK: No. HUNTLEY: When did you become a voter? STOLLENWERCK: What a minute, that decision came down in ' ; 54? HUNTLEY: ' ; 54. STOLLENWERCK: Yes, I was a voter. HUNTLEY: Do you remember going and taking the test? STOLLENWERCK: Yes. HUNTLEY: To become a voter? STOLLENWERCK: Yes. HUNTLEY: What was that like? STOLLENWERCK: Like going before the Supreme Court. You have, you have to forgive me, tobacco chewer, sitting behind a desk and he would put those papers up there and tell you to fill them out and he would spit across the room into a golden spittoon, I guess that' ; s what they call that thing, and he would say something when you were through with that, something like this: Ok, boy, you can go, we' ; ll be in touch with you. I remember my barber ; I think my barber gave me two dollars, cause that was the poll tax. You had to pay to vote. HUNTLEY: Did you pass the test the first time? STOLLENWERCK: Yes. HUNTLEY: So you received a notice in the mail that you had passed. STOLLENWERCK: Yes. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the Brown vs. Board of Education decision? Do you remember what was happening in your life at that time? Cause that would just precede the Montgomery bus boycott. STOLLENWERCK: I vaguely remember specifics in that connection. HUNTLEY: Yeah, this was a time. STOLLENWERCK: It' ; s been a while you know. HUNTLEY: Yeah, a long time. Right after of course the Brown decision, the movement started. Although I' ; m one of those that suggest that we talk about civil rights movement, the Martin movement starts with Brown. There was much taking place prior to then. The NAACP registering people to vote and the fact that as a result of this activity in 1956 it was outlawed from the state of Alabama. This then lead of course to something that you are very familiar with, the Alabama Christian Movement. STOLLENWERCK: I' ; m a charter member. HUNTLEY: You were at the first meeting? STOLLENWERCK: Yes sir. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. We know that the NAACP was outlawed from operating within that week. Some of you got together and decided that there was a necessity to fill this void. How did that come about? STOLLENWERCK: If memory serves me correctly, Shuttlesworth called that meeting. He had fellows like Abraham Woods, Phifer, I don' ; t remember all of the participants but there was a group that had come together on his behalf. And they decided they were going to have a meeting to see if they couldn' ; t circumvent the ruling of the outlawing of the NAACP. And we bet that everybody there presumably.You got to understand that there were some main line pastors at that meeting who if anything, were not with the movement, who did not want to fight. Well, they were eating at the King' ; s table and so I could understand that, but I didn' ; t. HUNTLEY: Were these usually older ministers and from the ministers that were along with you guys, were all of you younger? STOLLENWERCK: Yeah, for the most part. Of course that' ; s a peculiar case cause that' ; s all I had heard all of my life, is wait the time is not yet. You know, wait. Of course, you always have that group that is still ready to wait. Who had contact or contacts in city hall, that kind of thing. We were aware of it, but there was nothing we could do about it except to further promote our program, promote our efforts and just let them hang on the outside. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the first meeting? STOLLENWERCK: Well, we had singing, hymn singing. We had prayer, and we had speeches and then we called for a vote as to our position on forming a new organization. It went out overwhelmingly and at that meeting we elected president, vice-president, all of the officers and began having meetings. HUNTLEY: Did you serve in an official capacity at that time? STOLLENWERCK: No, no. HUNTLEY: Approximately how many people were at the first meeting? STOLLENWERCK: Well, I don' ; t know what old Sardis Church holds. HUNTLEY: But it was full? STOLLENWERCK: Yes sir. Hanging in rafters and outside. There were a lot of folks outside there who were guards. You have to be careful about trying to determine how many folks were there because once you got in you couldn' ; t get out, all you could do was assess what the inside looked like. HUNTLEY: How would you characterize a mass meeting? Mass meetings were held every Monday night in various churches around the city. For younger people who have no concept of what a mass meeting was like. How would you describe it so they would understand what it was like to attend one of those meetings? STOLLENWERCK: I think the mass meeting was more ; it was spiritual in its development. You always had your services. You know, your prayers and your hymn singing and your speeches. Folks were being motivated. Of course you understand that you have to keep motivating folks, every meeting you got to motivate them some more. That' ; s basically what happened, because as it turned out there was a sort of hierarchy of folk who set policy, you know at the head. And of course if any organization is gonna function effectively it had to have the leaders ; the heads of so much of what took place. For example, in the meeting we dealt with things common to the masses but the hierarchy dealt with the how to or when to or where to. They developed the strategy and then disseminated it to us. HUNTLEY: Yeah, I understand that. What was your role as a young man of the time? Were you teaching at that point? STOLLENWERCK: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were you at Carver? STOLLENWERCK: Wenonah. HUNTLEY: At Wenonah. There were many teachers who of course did not participate cause they were afraid of losing there jobs. Why did you decide otherwise? STOLLENWERCK: I was afraid to get... I didn' ; t want to lose my job and I don' ; t think you... you said many teachers well yeah, there were quite a few teachers who refused to participate overtly, but we were support for those folks who... for example, John Porter could not lose his job. HUNTLEY: Right. STOLLENWERCK: Luke Bill at Sixteenth could not lose his job. The many leaders could not lose their jobs but we could. HUNTLEY: Never the less you attended meetings. STOLLENWERCK: Yes, Yes. HUNTLEY: There were some that would not attend meetings. That didn' ; t want to be seen there because they were afraid, but you were one of those that did attend. STOLLENWERCK: There were... I don' ; t know if we had many Lucinda B. Rollings. She put her all on the line and they didn' ; t bother her. She was at every meeting, but there were those of us who would send our money to support the effort, but I went. HUNTLEY: Why, why did you decide to go? You know if.... STOLLENWERCK: I wanted to see what was going on and I wanted to be a part of it so that.... HUNTLEY: But you still could have lost your job just by being there. STOLLENWERCK: Well, I guess I was naive I didn' ; t think that they would do that to me. Simply because I was there. Yes I did go. HUNTLEY: But you also demonstrated. STOLLENWERCK: Yes, yes definitely, right there in the crowd. I would get with fellows like John Drew. Do you know John Drew? HUNTLEY: Sure. STOLLENWERCK: I would make it to fellows like him and hang on to them and wherever they went that' ; s where I would go. I was never out front to the extent that I would confront those dogs or the fire hoses. HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested? STOLLENWERCK: No. Somehow I avoided it, I guess I wasn' ; t in that place to get arrested. HUNTLEY: You weren' ; t in the right place at the right time. STOLLENWERCK: Yeah, yeah. HUNTLEY: Or the wrong place at the right time. STOLLENWERCK: Whatever. HUNTLEY: Yes. 1960 of course ; the year that students started to get involved. I mean Miles College students, college students all over the southeast. Sit ins in ' ; 61 the freedom rides, ' ; 62 selective buying campaign, ' ; 63 of course is when it all culminates with the demonstrations here and with the children from the city schools. You were still teaching in one of the city schools and you knew that children were being attracted. How did that play with you and what was your stance on the issue of using the children in the movement at that particular juncture? STOLLENWERCK: At the very beginning I thought that it was using the children as pawns. I came to realize that in numbers there is strength. I never shall forget there was a women in Collegeville who was up around the hood and she had 8 or 9 children, all of them went to Carver High School. One morning after the mass meeting A. D. King, Martin' ; s brother, came to Carver High School, and at that time we had chain linked fences around the building, but the gates were not locked. I don' ; t know how they came to that decision but, the students were in the halls talking about lets go, lets go. I wanted to know what was going on so I went up around the office and the principal stepped out of his office and he said: I' ; ll not try to stop you, if you' ; re going go ahead, if you' ; re not going let' ; s go in the classes and have school. He turned around and went back in. HUNTLEY: Who was the principal at the time? STOLLENWERCK: Dr. Goodsen. Do you know him? HUNTLEY: No, I do not. STOLLENWERCK: Not a finer man in the town, but anyway, that' ; s but one Black man' ; s opinion. A. D. King was seen, something had happened that precluded him coming on the grounds. I think the law said he couldn' ; t come on the grounds or he couldn' ; t come on the grounds of the school. HUNTLEY: So, he stood out... STOLLENWERCK: Across the street, he stood there and raised his arms and said: Ya' ; ll come. And they all followed out there. Of course, you understand, the authorities placed the kids out at Rickwood field. They didn' ; t have any space and they put them out there. Then there was something about taking some of their credits or something after they were identified. I don' ; t think anything came of that. I think the movement went to court and got that set aside. But I came to realize as I said before, if you want some strength you gotta get some numbers. I think that... that was, well I started to say the greatest turning point, but then it played a tremendous role in the turning point. HUNTLEY: Some suggest that that was the turning point in it. If it hadn' ; t been for the children the movement probably would have lost just as it did in some cities. It did in Albany, I believe. STOLLENWERCK: But you know, let me share this peculiar experience with you. When those students left the grounds of Carver High School they left three in the school. HUNTLEY: Three? STOLLENWERCK: Three. HUNTLEY: Everybody left, except those three. STOLLENWERCK: Everybody left, I don' ; t know how many were on the staff at that time but they were all there naturally, but we had three students. And these were a preacher' ; s children. HUNTLEY: They were siblings. STOLLENWERCK: Yeah. He dared them to leave and they stayed there that whole week. Of course the teachers were there, they didn' ; t have anybody to teach. But those three students stayed there the whole week while the rest of the folks were in the demonstration. HUNTLEY: That' ; s interesting. That' ; s the first time I' ; ve heard that. STOLLENWERCK: Off camera I' ; ll tell you a name. (Laughing) HUNTLEY: You were a member of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. STOLLENWERCK: Bred, born, reared, whatever, yeah. HUNTLEY: And of course in ' ; 63 in September was when the Sixteenth Street bombing took place. You had children that were attending church as well. Were you all in attendance at church that morning? STOLLENWERCK: Well, that' ; s kinda tricky. Let me share with you. Those girls who died, Luke Bill, who was the Pastor was sick and he asked me to perform the right of baptism. That particular Sunday morning I don' ; t know why but I dropped 3 children off for Sunday school and I went to and went around to Smith and Gaston Funeral Home, it' ; s where it is now. I don' ; t know why I went there, but I heard this blast and I was standing in the back door of the funeral home and I looked over to Sixteenth Street and there was a gray plume of smoke and I took off and ran across the lot. When I got there I could see on the side of the building it had been blown out, by this time I believe James Layton, was a reserve officer of some kind, he was there trying to, cause traffic had begun to back up and he had his megaphone trying to get the folks, cause the police hadn' ; t arrived yet. At the front entrance of the church, that downstairs entrance, folk were beginning to come out and I said, " ; has anybody seen Marsha?" ; that was my daughter, " ; anybody seen my children?" ; They were first or second to come out of the building. The boy had a stream of blood running out of his scalp, down his face. By this time Willie Buey, who was an ambulance driver with the Gaston, had come and they were starting to get the folks that were injured transported. Since my son had an injury and we didn' ; t know where it was I told my two girls to go to Smith and Gaston Funeral Home and your mom' ; s gonna come get you. Then they wanted somebody to go to the hospital. Buey said: come on Rev. your son' ; s going and I got in the ambulance with them and went to the emergency room. Then the folks from the church began to rush in. HUNTLEY: Did you go to Hillman? STOLLENWERCK: No. HUNTLEY: What hospital did you go to? STOLLENWERCK: What is that thing there? HUNTLEY: UAB Hospital? STOLLENWERCK: Yeah, right there on what is that 6th Avenue? HUNTLEY: 8th Avenue, yeah, actually 6th Avenue and 20th Street. STOLLENWERCK: Well, wherever the emergency room was at that time. HUNTLEY: Oh yeah, ok. STOLLENWERCK: It was at the UAB complex. It was not the Hillman Hospital because I think it' ; s up on 7th Avenue on 20th Street and 7th Avenue. That one red building over there. HUNTLEY: Right. STOLLENWERCK: But somebody said to me, ' ; cause they had roped it off, the emergency room said we need somebody who can give out information ' ; cause these folks will be coming looking for persons who may have been injured or whatever. Somebody said here' ; s Rev. Stollenwerck, maybe he' ; ll do it. Then they put me inside of that rope and I stood there. Sad thing about it was I recognized the children when they brought their bodies in. I didn' ; t see the bodies I saw their clothing and I saw one of my friend' ; s daughter' ; s shoes and I knew who that was. When the family came to me they knew me well enough, " ; Milton, Milton have you seen so and so?" ; I said... I lied ' ; cause I couldn' ; t find it in my heart to tell them that their girl was one of those bodies that they had brought in. Now this is the second time I' ; ll mention that. I told Lola and now I' ; m telling you, I never told them. HUNTLEY: Is that right? To this day? STOLLENWERCK: To this day. HUNTLEY: That must have been a heart wrenching situation. You seeing them and knowing but not being able to divulge that kind of information. STOLLENWERCK: Not at that point, they couldn' ; t handle it. In fact they had not been officially declared dead anyway. HUNTLEY: How did your children react? STOLLENWERCK: I don' ; t really recall, I really don' ; t. I have a daughter who' ; s rather rambunctious in her nature she probably... HUNTLEY: She was there at the church? STOLLENWERCK: Yeah, she was one of my children who came out of the basement. HUNTLEY: I know there were some trying times and all of the people I' ; ve talked with have talked about that incident. Most of them... you think about that and you wonder what goes through peoples minds. Like you said you ran from the funeral home down to the church around to the church immediately seeking to find where your children are and you found that they were basically safe. Your instinct then was to help other people at that point. STOLLENWERCK: Yeah, yeah. That' ; s what it was all about. I would have stayed, I would have remained on the scene except that I was one of the first persons on the scene. There was nobody else willing to take the time. I suppose most of the folks were running around trying to see what had happened, you know. But, since I got the first load in the ambulance and went on to the hospital I didn' ; t get back to... HUNTLEY: You didn' ; t get to see when the people came and they were really upset. All the masses of people and then the police. In fact you were gone before the police got there I assume. STOLLENWERCK: Yeah. HUNTLEY: And the firemen. STOLLENWERCK: Yeah. I' ; m trying to recall because I spoke at one point to UPI and I recall the person on the phone, but I' ; m trying to remember, but I' ; m losing some continuity here. I' ; m trying to remember exactly when it was that I spoke to the folks, but I recall talking to the person on the phone. She wanted to know what' ; s going on, what are the police doing. And my response was they are marching up and down the street in Gestapo type fashion with their guns drawn and this kind of thing. There was the chairman of the board of deacons. In fact he had called me to the phone cause the pastor John Cross was not there. And Charles Brown said Reverend don' ; t be so hard on them. Well, you told me to tell them what was going on from there. So, I don' ; t know at which interval I got a chance to speak to them maybe it was before I went to the hospital. HUNTLEY: Well, if the police were out front maybe it had been a little bit later cause the police were not there when you left. Probably in mass it would have been somewhat later anyway. STOLLENWERCK: Well, that had been a long time. HUNTLEY: Absolutely. And then if you... Many times I find if you... over a period of time things seem to move into that particular day that was not there and other things move out. So its understandable, very much so. What was Birmingham like after that? STOLLENWERCK: Very tense. After the bombing, very tense. Everybody was watching everybody else. Even those, those other folk who claim that they were friends of these folk. HUNTLEY: What folk are you referring to? STOLLENWERCK: I' ; m talking about the religious units between the Black and White communities. Just a little bit of a community was able to come together and try to stabilize the situation, but it was my opinion that there was mass destruction among those folk who had claimed to trust and respect each other. HUNTLEY: What was it like being a member of that church? And going back to the church? STOLLENWERCK: Well, as you must understand by now, several families left because of the church' ; s involvement. There were those... you see Sixteenth Street has always been noted as a class church, not a mass church, and many of those folk didn' ; t want to be involved with the struggle anyway. I suspect mainly because they were refusing to be of the upper crust. You know and they didn' ; t have any reason to create any problems of deceit or whatever, cause they were living on the mountain so to speak. HUNTLEY: So, as a result of the church being so active, many of those people, I mean some of those people left the congregation. STOLLENWERCK: Yes, they did. Of course, those families who lost family members in the bombing situation, were the main folk who took leave of the Sixteenth Street Church. Now there were others, but for the most part they were the people who lost family. HUNTLEY: There were those who would not attend Sixteenth Street because they feared that it would happen again. STOLLENWERCK: Yeah. HUNTLEY: Did the membership then start to diminish as a result? I know over time there had been difficulty in the church with membership. Was that one of the reasons? STOLLENWERCK: I' ; m not so sure. Sixteenth Street never had, no, that' ; s not true. I started to say they never had an overflowing attendance but, they had, it seemed to me that they had started to decline, even before the bombing. I suspect some of that was because of the involvement of the church in the movement. HUNTLEY: Your pastor was involved? STOLLENWERCK: Yeah, originally. The pastor was rather passive, but when he died and they called another pastor, he saw no problems in being involved. HUNTLEY: What pastor was that? STOLLENWERCK: Which one? HUNTLEY: The one that came here that didn' ; t have a problem? STOLLENWERCK: That was John Cross. The bombing took place under his administration. I remember one Sunday, and I don' ; t know many folk who remember this, but one Sunday the pastor spoke ; Luke Bill, I' ; ll tell you who he was, he spoke and said something to the Sixteenth Street membership. He said, " ; you' ; re little more than a social club" ; . That was in his 11:00 message. He said it may not happen in my life time but you' ; re headed in a direction that you' ; ll find yourself nothing but a museum. This had to be in the early 50s. HUNTLEY: Oh, that early. STOLLENWERCK: Yes. HUNTLEY: Why was he making that statement at that point? STOLLENWERCK: Well, apparently the membership was declining. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. STOLLENWERCK: That' ; s all I can see. HUNTLEY: He was predicting the future based upon what was taking place at that point. STOLLENWERCK: Yeah, but now, how far wrong was he? HUNTLEY: Well, some say in the past ten years anyway they have seen the membership start to increase again. STOLLENWERCK: Now, you' ; ve got to understand. I don' ; t know if it' ; s increasing or not. HUNTLEY: Are you still a member there? STOLLENWERCK: No. I was there 50 years but circumstances developed and I thought it best to leave. I have a social studies major and I tribute my ability to recall certain things because of that social studies background. I don' ; t know if that has anything to do with it, I just dropped that in for whatever it may be worth. HUNTLEY: Well, that could very well be. It means that you are trained in that manner. We' ; ve covered a lot of territory and we' ; ve talked a lot about a lot of subjects. When we initially started we talked about schools and the way school systems were in the period of segregation verses where we are today. From your perspective, what has been the difference? What has made for the change in the ways in which we are educated now verses when we were under the throws of segregation? STOLLENWERCK: I don' ; t know who it was who articulated that too much freedom is just as dangerous as not having any at all. Early on this kid was sitting in my classroom and she was doing nothing just sitting there, and I asked her, " ; baby what are you going to do for your grade?" ; and she giggled and dropped her head. I said I asked you a question, what are you going to do about your grade? She said, " ; what you mean?" ; Well, you aren' ; t doing anything. She says, " ; you can' ; t make me do anything, I' ; m free." ; My response to her was, " ; well, free to do what ; to be dumb?" ; In my day I never would have said anything like that to not only the teachers, but the neighbors. So, I' ; m thinking that it' ; s... we have too much freedom, we can' ; t make folks be responsible. They were talking about child brutality. My remark was that if they charged my grandmother with brutality she would be in jail now. But, it didn' ; t hurt me. HUNTLEY: You think that' ; s a result of the movement? The gaining of the freedom. STOLLENWERCK: It is a result of misguided folk and that may be the same thing you said, but students just don' ; t do. I think it begins at home, because I further believe that kids now are rearing themselves. HUNTLEY: When does that change? STOLLENWERCK: It changed in the time frame of a demonstration. The courts rendering these kinds of decisions. I told somebody just the other day I said the leaders in this society have us locked in. They know what they are going to allow us to do for the next 200 years and we' ; re sitting on our laurels and just forgetting about the forces that threaten us. HUNTLEY: Some say that we were better off before integration and after integration we seemed to start to lose what we had actually gained. What is your opinion of that? STOLLENWERCK: I agree to some great extent. For example, I don' ; t think we had as many students coming out of even high school who could not read as we have now. HUNTLEY: The question is though, why? Why now? STOLLENWERCK: Well, we had the home, what is this thing it takes a whole village to raise a child. We' ; ve forgotten that. When I came home, even if the neighbor lied on me I was chastised for it. Consequently, if she chastised me I would always hope that she wouldn' ; t tell my grandmother because I got chastised again. And they' ; ll tell you quick, I don' ; t believe in chastising, I don' ; t believe in telling mine no or don' ; t. There' ; s something wrong there. HUNTLEY: So, the family and the community we had during those days were somehow disappeared and that has created havoc. STOLLENWERCK: Well, if you really look at the thing, you don' ; t have any families anymore. You don' ; t have any communities anymore. Yeah, you have a bunch of houses and the folk going in and going to bed. There' ; s been a breakdown. For example, when... I hate to keep doing this but it' ; s the only way I know how to do it. When it was time to eat breakfast everybody knew what time that was and everybody was at that table. When it' ; s time to eat supper or dinner, whatever you call it, everybody knew what time that was and they were at that table. Moreover they said grace, or they said a bible verse after the old man had said grace. You don' ; t have any of that now. Some folk have the audacity to say it' ; s old fashion but that' ; s where the breakdown started. When the parents lost control of these homes. Yeah, the homes, not houses. (Laughing). That' ; s where the breakdown started. And strangely enough what transpires in the former generation is passed on to the later and that' ; s why folks are talking about our losing generations because these later generations don' ; t have anything to build on. HUNTLEY: So, now we' ; re wondering what the next generation is going to be like. STOLLENWERCK: Right, there' ; s no telling. HUNTLEY: Reverend Stollenwerck you' ; ve been great. I appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to come and sit and talk with me. Maybe after I view this and look at the transcript maybe you' ; d like to do something in addition to this. So, I appreciate your time and if there is anything else that you' ; d like to leave with us feel free to, if not we' ; ll save it till next time and we' ; ll do it again. STOLLENWERCK: Save it till the next time. (Laughing). HUNTLEY: Thank you so much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=MStollenwerck1997.xml MStollenwerck1997.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rev. Milton Stollenwerck
Description
An account of the resource
Rev. Milton Stollenwerck discusses being involved with the Alabama Christian Movement as a teacher in Birmingham. He was a member of 16th Street Baptist Church when it was bombed in 1963.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
19970604S
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Alabama A & M University
Literacy tests (Election law)
Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights
Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1997-06-04
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/7e6ff5915c240f835c42a2cc375736d3.jpg
d21887eeb2729326dce57b9b6c423323
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Horace Huntley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Rev. Lamar Weaver
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=LWeaver1995.xml
Interview Keyword
This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are
included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
Voter registration--United States
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 March 16, 1995 Rev. Lamar Weaver Interviewed on March 16, 1995 19950316W 0:56:40 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham 16th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Union Terminal Station (Birmingham, Ala.) Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Bull Connor--Commissioner of Public Safety--Birmingham, Ala. Voter registration--United States Rev. Lamar Weaver Horace Huntley Video 1:|14(4)|25(15)|44(13)|60(2)|79(5)|90(6)|101(1)|119(2)|136(11)|161(6)|172(1)|187(9)|201(4)|215(2)|233(15)|245(8)|262(6)|286(5)|297(7)|311(18)|328(12)|351(12)|360(12)|374(14)|384(10)|394(4)|407(9)|420(3)|439(9)|452(11)|464(6)|484(7)|495(6)|508(3)|522(4)|538(4)|564(12)|579(12)|590(14)|602(24)|614(16)|643(6)|662(6)|674(2)|685(15)|692(9)|711(7)|722(12)|730(6)|744(4)|757(10)|769(14)|783(8)|794(12) 0 https://youtu.be/gz9HRk9G-FE YouTube video English 66 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Rev. Lamar Weaver for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley, at Miles College. Today is March 16, 1995 and Rev. Weaver, I want to thank you for driving all the way from Atlanta this morning to come and sit and talk with us about your experiences here in Birmingham. 33.4810, -86.9089, 17 Miles College 33.5161, -86.8145 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute www.bcri.org BCRI Homepage 97 Family Background Thank you again. I'd just like to start and get a little background. Where are you originally from...your birthplace? Reverand Lamar Weaver talks about where he was born and his parents divorce. Divorce ; Elementary School ; Family Separation Arab (Ala.) ; Atlanta (Ga.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Cassville (Ga.) ; Cullman (Ala.) ; Holly Pond (Ala.) ; Kelly Ingram Park (Birmingham, Ala.) 206 Family Background-Mother's Side And divorced. What kind of work did your mother do? Reverend Lamar Weaver talks about his moms profession. Gangs--United States ; Nurse Birmingham (Ala.) ; Boys' Club ; Cartersville (Ga.) ; Hillman Hospital 274 Community Background The community that you lived in was really on the edge of downtown. How would you describe that community? Reverend Lamar Weaver discusses growing up in the communities in Birmingham, about being taught to be colorblind and also being involved with gangs. Blacks--United States ; Italians--United States ; Jews--United States ; Neighborhoods-multicultural ; Whites--United States 16th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Boys' Club ; Colorblind ; Ensley High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Fairfield (Ala.) ; Gang members ; Good Will Boys Club ; Juvenile delinquents ; Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 751 Transformation of Kelly Ingram Park You lived on the periphery of Kelly Ingram Park? Reverend Lamar Weaver explains how Kelly Ingram park was a playground for the kids but also a place for gangs to come meet up. Black Communities ; Blacks--United States ; Fights ; Gangs--United States ; Neighborhoods ; Whites--United States 16th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; 1930's ; 1940's ; A. G. Gaston Funeral Home (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Boys' Club ; Kelly Ingram Park (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Masonic Temple (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Mecca Hotel (Birmingham, Ala.) 915 Graduation from High School Cassville, Georgia In 1954 when Brown v. Board of Education decision was made by the Supreme Court, what were you doing at that time? Reverend Lamar Weaver explains how his life changed in 1949, how the Civil Rights Movement was something he was suppose to do. Divine Intervention ; Life change events A. G. Gaston Funeral Home (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Brown vs. Board of Education of Topeka ; Cassville (Ga.) ; Civil rights movement ; Hillman Hospital ; Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; SouthEastern Bible College (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Tennessee Coal, Iron, and Railroad Company 1075 Work at Tennessee Coal, Iron, and Railroad Company Okay, so what did you do then right after finishing at Cassville? Reverend Lamar Weaver discusses coming back to pick up activities after high school such as working as an ambulance driver at TCI. Ambulance drivers ; Metallurgist ; Part-time employment Birmingham (Ala.) ; Cassville (Ga.) ; Gadsden (Ala.) ; Rome (Ga.) ; Tennessee Coal, Iron, and Railroad Company 1131 Protest at Union Terminal Station With Fred Shuttlesworth Well, when I had become involved in the Civil Rights Movement, I had also become involved in politics and I had run for city office and I had gone with two ministers from Southeastern Bible College and registered people to vote in several states, and and Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth who I had got to know, had told me that he was going to sit in a White waiting room at the terminal station, the Union Terminal Station. Reverend Lamar Weaver talks about going to sit with Fred Shuttlesworth at the Union Terminal Station in Birmingham, Alabama and how the mob came after him. Aggression and violence ; Black Funeral Directors ; Blacks--Segregation ; Hit-and-run drivers ; Mobs ; Politics ; Protestors ; The Media ; Train Ticket ; Voter registration--United States ; Whites--United States--Attitudes ABC News ; Civil rights movement ; KKK-A ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Southeastern Bible College (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Tennessee Coal, Iron, and Railroad Company ; The Ku Klux Klan ; Union Terminal Station (Birmingham, Ala.) 1361 Start of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Fred Shuttlesworth starts the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights in 1956. Reverend Lamar Weaver talked about being an early member of ACMHR and running in an election against Bull Connor. American political parties and elections ; Blacks in Government (U.S.) ; Blacks--United States ; Voter registration ; Whites--United States--Attitudes 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; A. G. Gaston's Funeral Home ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Bull Connor--Commissioner of Public Safety--Birmingham, Ala. ; Civil rights movement ; Johns, Vernon, 1892-1965 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1629 The Campaign to Higher Black Policemen Let me take you back just a bit, though, before we get to that point. Let me just ask you, well firstly...the first issue that was developed by the Alabama Christian Movement was the issue of the hiring of Black policemen. Your campaign, around the same time, you were campaigning on the issue of hiring Black policemen. Was there any connection? Reverend Lamar Weaver speaks about his time running against Bull Connor and campaigning for black police and firemen. Blacks--Employment--Law and legislation ; Blacks--Segregation ; Earth Day ; Firemen ; policmen ; Whites--United States--Attitudes Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Billingsley, Orzell, 1924-2001 ; Birmingham World ; Bull Connor--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham, Ala. ; Hall, Peter ; Harris, Virgil ; Jackson, Emory ; Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 1852 Reaction of Rev. Lamar Weaver's Mother to Movement What was the reaction of your mother to your involvement in the Movement? Rev. Lamar Weaver talks about his mother being supportive during his involvement in the movement. Affectionate Mother ; Arson ; Christian women ; Mobs ; Terminal Station Crestview (Fla.) ; Eglan Airforce Base (Fort Walton Beach, Fla.) ; Ku Klux Klan ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1951 Meetings with the Alabama Christian Movement You did take part in the mass...the mass meetings of the Alabama Christian Movement. Rev. Lamar Weaver discusses how during the Alabama Christian Movement Meetings they would have a lookout person because of the threats being posed against them and the movement. African American churches ; Black Churches ; Drive-by shootings ; Extreme threats ; Police Absence ; Whites--United States--Attitudes 16th Street Baptist Church (Bimringham, Ala.) ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Bill Shortridge ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Woods, Abraham, Jr., 1928-2008 2181 Bill Shortridge So, you were the exception. Tell me about Mr. Shortridge. Rev. Lamar Weaver explains the role of Bill Shortridge in being the " ; bag man" ; who bailed people out during the movement. African American churches ; Bail ; bail bondsmen ; jail ; money Bill Shortridge ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Civil rights movement ; Revelation Baptist Church (Cincinnati, Ohio) 2264 Last Days in Birmingham You joined Revelation Baptist Church? Rev. Lamar Weaver discusses his last days in Birmingham being a wanted man. Fugitive ; Funeral homes ; Hiding places ; Southerner ; Terminal Station ; White Man ; Whites--United States--Attitudes Aaron Bland ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham World ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Ebony magazine (Choreographic work : Brown) ; Emory Jackson ; Ku Klux Klan ; Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company ; Poole Brothers ; Sangster, George, 1934- ; Virgil Harris ; YMCA 2559 Arrival in Cincinnati So, when you arrived in Cincinnati, what did you do? What kind of work did you do? Rev. Lamar Weaver talks about what he did when he arrived in Cincinnati, Ohio. Black voters ; Integration ; United States. Supreme Court ; Voter registration--United States Aaron Bland ; Alabama ; Arthur Shore ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham News ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Civil rights movement ; Ebony magazine (Choreographic work : Brown) ; Florida ; Georgia ; Hurley, Ruby ; Mississippi ; NAACP Collection (Library of Congress) ; New Amsterdam News ; Sangster, George, 1934- ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Witt-Good & ; Kelsch Funeral Home 2939 Impact of the Birmingham Movement Okay. What impact do you think the Birmingham Movement had upon this community and the nation? Rev. Lamar Weaver talks about the major effects the movement has had on his life. Advocate ; Autobiography ; Memoir ; Personal Experience 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Arrington, Richard ; Atlanta (Ga.) ; Bessemer (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Brookwood (Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement ; Johnson, Jimmy ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Liuzzo, Viola, 1925-1965 ; March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Roosevelt, Eleanor, 1884-1962 ; Selma (Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 3243 Fred Shuttlesworth's Departure to Cincinnati That's for sure. That's an understatement. Let me just ask you one other question that relate to a person who was very instrumental in the development of the Birmingham Movement, but also had to leave Birmingham and that's Fred Shuttlesworth. And, I hear that you were instrumental in his eventually coming to Cincinnati. Can you tell me a little about that? Rev. Lamar Weaver discusses his relationship with Fred Shuttlesworth. Church ; Friendship ; Pastor Birmingham (Ala.) ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Civil rights movement ; Revelation Baptist Church (Cincinnati, Ohio) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 3353 Interview Conclusion Okay, well I want to thank you for taking your time and driving over from Atlanta this morning to come and sit and talk with us to give us your perception of what took place in Birmingham because that's a rather unique perspective that you have, being one of the few whites that were actively involved in the struggle. Again, thank you for coming. Oral History Rev. Lamar Weaver discusses getting to know Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth as he got more involved in the Movement. Weaver ran against Bull Connor on an anti-segregation platform. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Rev. Lamar Weaver for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley, at Miles College. Today is March 16, 1995 and Rev. Weaver, I want to thank you for driving all the way from Atlanta this morning to come and sit and talk with us about your experiences here in Birmingham. WEAVER: I' ; m happy to be here. HUNTLEY: Thank you again. I' ; d just like to start and get a little background. Where are you originally from...your birthplace? WEAVER: I was born in Cassville, Georgia. That' ; s in Bartow County, Cartersville area, just above Atlanta on January 11, 1928. My mother and father were on a visit to an uncle of mine in Cassville and I was born there, at home and then we travelled back to a place where my father was working in Holly Pond, Alabama. He was a sharecropper there and worked in a sawmill. My mother and father had lived in Holly Pond, Cullman and Arab. That' ; s where my father was from. My mother was from Georgia, Cassville, Georgia. HUNTLEY: How old were you, when you came to Birmingham? WEAVER: I think the first time that I came to Birmingham was...I was 8 or 9 months old, was in 1928. I remember that my mother and father weren' ; t getting along too well and as I grew up in my tender years, they split, I think about when I was about six years old, because I remember, my mother enrolled me in Hendley Elementary School down on, I think 7th, 17th Street across from Kelly Ingram Park and there I spent several years in school at Hendley. HUNTLEY: 6th Avenue and 17th Street. WEAVER: Right. HUNTLEY: So, then your mother and father had separated by then? WEAVER: And divorced. HUNTLEY: And divorced. What kind of work did your mother do? WEAVER: My mother was a nurse, but she wasn' ; t a licensed nurse. She was going to the Old Hillman Hospital and taking a course about that time to become a nurse, which she later did. But, it took her several years and, in the meantime, I just went to school and roamed the streets and played in the...in that 8th Avenue, 7th Avenue, 16th Street, 17th Street area. I used to walk back and forth to the old Boys Club which is up 26th Street and ran with a real bad crowd. Back in those days we had gangs and had gang fights, didn' ; t have any guns, but mostly bricks. We called them brick bats. HUNTLEY: Brick bats. How much...tell me a little bit about the education of your mother? Did she, was she a high school graduate? WEAVER: She attended high school in Georgia, in Cartersville, Georgia. HUNTLEY: And, then she...she eventually then would become a nurse right here in Birmingham? WEAVER: Yes. HUNTLEY: The community that you lived in was really on the edge of downtown. How would you describe that community? WEAVER: Well, it was a poor neighborhood. There was a Jewish school nearby. It was a mixed neighborhood of.... HUNTLEY: How do you mean mixed? WEAVER: Well, it was. everybody was poor, but it was some Blacks, Italians, some Jewish. It was just a mixture of all kinds. But, like I said, they were all poor, cause we pretty well ran together. HUNTLEY: Did you live on the same streets? Was there a street that Blacks lived on or were the homes intermixed? WEAVER: We weren' ; t separated by many blocks...maybe a block. I was very close to the 16th Street Baptist Church. That was kind of a landmark back in those days of the Black community. And I remember that one of my very best friends was a Black boy, his name was David, and David and I used to go down to a grocery store at 8th Avenue and 17th Street and sometimes we would.if they had their fruit out in the front, we' ; d grab a banana or two and run. David, at some point in time, in those early days, got killed. He got run over by a trolley car and I remember the man had just caught us stealing some fruit the day before and gave us a pretty good beating and David got killed and they had him laid out at one of the Black funeral homes. They were like in a cluster right there around that area and I went to the layout and I went back by the grocery store and took a brick and threw it through the plate glass window. I said " ; David, this is for you." ; HUNTLEY: Tell me, when I grew up in the western section of Birmingham and there were Whites, Italians and Blacks. Prior to going to elementary school, we all played together and were best friends and all. But once we went to school, we each went to our different schools, which affected our relationship because then, we didn' ; t have that same kind of opportunity to get together. Did you have the same kind of experience? WEAVER: Yes, I' ; ve always found in life that young children, especially the elementary children, they enjoy the mixing of the races and they get along fine. They have friends in every area, but as they grow older, I think a lot of what they get at home, from their parents, rubs off on them and they go on their own respective ways. My mother taught me to be color blind and she never did try to restrict me from running around with any particular person and I guess that' ; s why...not to say that we weren' ; t prejudiced, I think most people are born with a little prejudice and as they get older, they become more prejudice. But my mother taught me to be color blind. HUNTLEY: Yeah, you raised the issue of color blind. Explain that... what do you mean by " ; color blind?" ; WEAVER: Well, she said there was no difference in a Black and a White, an Italian, and a Jew. They were all the same, created by the same Master Planner and, that beneath that skin, everything was the same. The pigment of the skin might be different, but the inside was a lot... was the same and that every person was different. And, I...I' ; ve found that to be true. HUNTLEY: Did you get the impression that the same things was being taught in other White homes at the time, or were there differences in your home and other homes? WEAVER: Oh, there was a great deal of difference. I was even asked by some of my White friends, and some of their parents. Their mother...one woman asked me one time why I ran around with this Black boy, that I should stay with my own kind. HUNTLEY: So, you were really probably the exception rather than the rule, at the time, it appears? WEAVER: I think so. HUNTLEY: I' ; ve asked this question a number of times...a number of people that I' ; ve interviewed, but what was your community' ; s relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? WEAVER: Well, we were...I was never, that I can remember, arrested. I think at one point in time in my young life I might have been arrested as an ambulance driver in some feud I was having about whether I could drive an ambulance or not. But, I never really had any trouble with the police. I guess it' ; s because I had long legs and we were able to outrun them. But the community and the police...the police seemed to always be down in the community looking for people and for something to take you in for. And, they were always chasing us, I can remember that. HUNTLEY: So, you were with a group of juveniles who were rather active? WEAVER: Delinquents. HUNTLEY: Juvenile delinquents who were rather active in the community and always into something? WEAVER: Right, we didn' ; t mean any harm, but we didn' ; t have any money and what we got, we got by picking up bottles and doing odd jobs and just making it the best way we could on the streets. HUNTLEY: Now, was this a White gang, as you refer to? WEAVER: This was a mixed gang. HUNTLEY: A mixed gang, in Birmingham in 1940s? WEAVER: In the 30s and the early 40s. HUNTLEY: That' ; s interesting. Would there. in your growing up, and of course, as I said, you are on sort of the periphery of the downtown community, so I figure it' ; s probably a rather unique community. Were there community organizations after you grew up? Obviously, during your teenage years, there probably were just those that you and your well I hesitate to say gang members, but for lack of a better term, gang members. But were there community organizations that your mother could participate in and other grown-ups of the community? Were there any mixing of the grown-ups? WEAVER: Well, I can remember that I went to school. Of course, I went to Hendley and then I went to Ensley High School and Phillips High School because we moved a lot. I was on the south side, the north side, the east side, the west side, Ensley and even Fairfield at one point in time. As far as the organizations, as I became older, we graduated from the close knit in that area where we lived on 17th Street, 18th Street, 19th Street North, downtown, we could easily walk to the Boys Club...and the Boys Club was available up on 26th Street and we' ; d go there because they had swimming facilities, they had basketball facilities and we could get into a lot of things, and we did this. HUNTLEY: You lived on the periphery of Kelly Ingram Park? WEAVER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me anything about Kelly Ingram? How it changes over time? WEAVER: Kelly Ingram was a playground for Hendley School and it was also an area for people to hang out. We had our playground... and I remember we had a wrestling area where we would go over and wrestle and just play in general in Kelly Ingram Park. It was just a hang out. But, as I got older, it was easier to walk up to the Boys Club because we had all of the facilities that we didn' ; t have at Kelly Ingram Park. But, Kelly Ingram Park was a notorious hangout area, play area for gangs and there were a lot of fights out there on Kelly Ingram Park with different gangs. We' ; d come, a lot of times with sacks full of bricks and wait until the other gang got there and then we' ; d start throwing those rocks. HUNTLEY: At that point, I guess we are talking about the 30s and 40s. Was the periphery of Kelly Ingram...were those homes right around Kelly Ingram...were they Black or White? WEAVER: Well, they were Black and White. That was mostly... the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church, was kind of the landmark of the Black community. And, then, there was...I believe an Italian grocery where the Civil Rights Museum is today. And, then of course, there was A. G. Gaston Funeral home which was on the other corner. That was the center of the Black community. But then, you turned and went up to the Mecca Hotel and you gradually got away and into the downtown area, but the Black community came up to that line because of the Masonic Temple building and the other buildings where Blacks had offices. HUNTLEY: Some have suggested that Kelly Ingram was really a White park...that Blacks were not allowed in the park. WEAVER: There were a lot of gang fights over that and, some of us who were in a mixed gang, fought the other gangs for the turf, so to speak. Because...Blacks at that point in time, especially in the 30s were not welcomed in Kelly Ingram Park. It kind of changed in the 40s because of the neighborhood. HUNTLEY: Was the neighborhood changing at that time? WEAVER: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, you were getting more Blacks into the area, so therefore Kelly Ingram would become accessible then to Blacks? WEAVER: I would think so, yes. HUNTLEY: In 1954 when Brown v. Board of Education decision was made by the Supreme Court, what were you doing at that time? WEAVER: I was working at TCI. I also had a part-time job driving an ambulance and was also still going in and out occasionally at Southeastern Bible College. HUNTLEY: So, you attended Southeastern Bible College after you... WEAVER: All during...from the 50s...early 50s I was at Southeastern Bible College. The Lord had saved me in ' ; 49 and I was...I was a Christian then and um, of course, everything changed for me. My life changed and I was really seeking to make money to pay the bills and do what I could on at Southeastern because I felt that the Lord had called me to be involved in the Civil Rights Movement and I had become I was asked to come to A. G. Gaston Funeral Home and speak to their group of employees as a young minister and student and I went there and got to know a lot of the Blacks and it just became a challenge to do more. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about. before we get into the Civil Rights era, tell me a little bit about after you finished high school. Did you go right into bible college at that time, or did you find a job? WEAVER: Well, I did both really, I both. HUNTLEY: Okay, and, what year did you finish. Phillips High School? WEAVER: No, I didn' ; t finish Phillips, I went back to Cassville to finish my last year. I went over there for six or seven months to finish high school. HUNTLEY: Why did you go back to Cassville? WEAVER: Well, my mother was having trouble then with her studies to become a nurse over at the Old Hillman Hospital and I would make frequent trips back to Cassville to an uncle' ; s farm. During the summer a lot of times, I would go over there and work, and I joined a church over there, and I decided to go back to Cassville and pick up what I needed to finish, and I did. HUNTLEY: Okay, so what did you do then right after finishing at Cassville? WEAVER: I came back to Birmingham. I had really never left it. It was just a short bus trip from Cassville to Rome, Rome to Gadsden, Gadsden to Birmingham. I came back and just picked up my activities. HUNTLEY: And those activities included what? WEAVER: Part-time ambulance driver, working at the TCI. HUNTLEY: How did you initially get the job at TCI? What was your job at TCI? WEAVER: I was in the metallurgist department out there. HUNTLEY: How did you get that job? WEAVER: To tell you the truth, I don' ; t remember. I think I just went out there and they needed somebody, and they hired me. HUNTLEY: And, how long were you there? WEAVER: I want to say a year, but it could have been less. I left there abruptly. HUNTLEY: Why, any particular reason? WEAVER: Well, when I had become involved in the Civil Rights Movement, I had also become involved in politics and I had run for city office and I had gone with two ministers from Southeastern Bible College and registered people to vote in several states, and and Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth who I had got to know, had told me that he was going to sit in a White waiting room at the terminal station, the Union Terminal Station. And, I told him I would come and join him. But, Whites could not sit with Blacks and Blacks could not sit with Whites. I did not know that Fred had notified the media and they...he really garnered a crowd and when I got there, I had to park a block away and I went in and sat with him and of course, he had sense enough to get a ticket and I didn' ; t. I didn' ; t think about buying a ticket. I didn' ; t think I needed one. I was going to stay there, it was my home. But, the mob gathered, and the police came in and wanted to know if, if they had tickets and he and Ruby, his wife did. I had no ticket, so they escorted me to the door and several persons heard the remark that " ; well what are you going to do with him." ; They said, " ; we' ; re going to turn him over to the mob" ; and they did...they put me right out the front door. The guy grabbed me just as soon as I got out and hit me with a suitcase and knocked me to the floor...to the ground and kicked me a couple of times, but ABC was there taking pictures. HUNTLEY: What' ; s AB..oh, the network? WEAVER: Yes. So, I think it saved my life ' ; cause they don' ; t like to have the Klan then never did like to have their pictures taken. So, I got up and walked to my car, a block away slowly because I knew to run would be a disaster but scared to death. got in my car and as I got in my car and got the key in the ignition, there was construction going on right there and they picked up cement blocks and started knocking the top in and busting the glass and then trying to rock and turn my car over. About a dozen got on each side and they were rocking my car but I managed to get it started and leave the area where I went straight to the City Hall, where I was arrested and given a speedy trial because they wanted me to leave town, for my own safety. HUNTLEY: There was a report that in, in your escaping the crowd, that you actually ran over someone? WEAVER: Someone said I did. That I actually hit them. Actually, I think I just pushed them out of the way with my fender. There was no real injury, but, I ran a red light and that was the thing to get away from them I had to run a red light. HUNTLEY: And, you were arrested? WEAVER: For running a red light and fleeing a mob. And, that necessitated me to immediately resign at the TCI and go out and get my last check which a Black funeral director, Ernest Poole and John Poole took me. They also hid my car and hid me and they took me out to get my last check and there was a mob out there at TCI. People were hollering at me and calling me names, but I got my last check and I left TCI that day. HUNTLEY: Why did you think it was necessary for you to leave TCI? WEAVER: I was told to resign, that they didn' ; t want me out there anymore. HUNTLEY: Now this is in ' ; 57. WEAVER: ' ; 57. HUNTLEY: Fred Shuttlesworth starts the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights in 1956. WEAVER: Right. HUNTLEY: Were you involved in that? WEAVER: I was told I was an early member of SCLC and I attended a lot of the Monday night meetings. But I met Fred either in ' ; 53 or ' ; 54. Also, that year, I met Dr. King when he came to Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery and I had gone down in ' ; 52 and spent a day and a half with Vernon Johns who was the pastor at that particular time, and I have to say, looking back over the years that my motivation came more from those two men, Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth and Rev. Vernon Johns and of course, Dr. King had a part in it. But Vernon Johns was the one who wanted to start boycotting the buses, which later Dr. King did, and Vernon Johns felt that Blacks should establish businesses so that all the money wouldn' ; t be going to White folk and White businesses, and he was right. And, he even started a fruit stand down there in front of his church. HUNTLEY: Why did you initially go down to visit with Vernon Johns? WEAVER: Because of the publicity he was getting. I had heard about him and then I met Fred because of the same thing. I went over to Bethel Baptist Church one day and met a young minister. I said " ; you know, we' ; re trying to talk to Black churches and Black people about registering to vote and council with them" ; , and he said " ; well let me show you a list," ; and he took me into the front of the church and showed me this long list of people that had registered to vote and becomeHe said " ; I tell my folk that they' ; re not first class citizens until they register to vote. become voters." ; HUNTLEY: Did you get your initial impetus to get involved in the movement while you were at the bible college, when you and the other two student ministers decided to help register people to vote? WEAVER: I think my interest really started when I went over and spoke to A. G. Gaston' ; s group at the Smith & ; Gaston Funeral Home and got to know him and his wife, T. J. Gardner, his son-in-law and their family and some of their people and through them I met P. A. Welch and some of the other business leaders in the Black community. Virgil Harris who later managed my campaign when I ran against Bull Conner. Virgil was a great man. And I had thought long and hard about the Civil Rights Institute and what you' ; re doing and frankly, the reason I' ; m here today is because I want people to remember those people for what they did, because without them, we would have never gotten as far as our goals are, and I always tell people to thank God for Bull Conner because, had he not turned the dogs loose and the fire hoses and had he ignored us, in those days, the movement never would have gone forward and I would like to pay tribute to those four young ladies who were in the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church because their sacrifice. You know they' ; re saints now, but they could have been mothers and grandmothers and business professionals, but God chose to make angels out of them and they made a tremendous sacrifice because, at that point, the Civil Rights Movement had come to a slow walk, you might say, and that spurred things to really start happening. Blacks got elected to public office. We got judges and the Civil Rights Movement really moved forward after that. HUNTLEY: Let me take you back just a bit, though, before we get to that point. Let me just ask you, well firstly. the first issue that was developed by the Alabama Christian Movement was the issue of the hiring of Black policemen. Your campaign, around the same time, you were campaigning on the issue of hiring Black policemen. Was there any connection? WEAVER: Well, like I said, when the Lord saved me, my life changed. You know a lot of people say, Lamar, you made a Christian decision. Well, I wasn' ; t thinking about the Christian decision, I was thinking about the right decision and then when somebody suggested well you' ; re getting around now, why don' ; t you run for public office, so I decided to take Bull on. And, and... HUNTLEY: What year was that? WEAVER: This, I believe was in ' ; 55. It could have been ' ; 54 but I think it was in ' ; 55 and it could have run over into ' ; 56 because I ran twice. I ran as a write-in candidate after I came in third in the first campaign. But, my feeling was and knowing people, such great civil rights leaders like Arthur Shores and Orzell Billingsley and Peter Hall and Emory Jackson, the fearless editor of the Birmingham World. You know, the problems in Birmingham, it had been a segregated city for so long and that there were no Blacks on the police force or the fire department and so, right away, I was the only candidate out of five that said, the headlines were " ; the only difference in this whole campaign, is Weaver wants to hire Blacks," ; so I' ; m proud of that because I think I did make people think. HUNTLEY: What was the response of the police and the firemen? WEAVER: Well, Virgil Harris came up with an idea...he managed my campaign. He said " ; let' ; s give the police and the firemen a raise, they' ; re not making very much money." ; So, I suggested that and I was the only candidate that did. The White police and firemen forgave me for wanting to hire Blacks because every time I' ; d get out on the street, they would congratulate me and wish me luck and I think they...a great deal of them supported me in the campaign. HUNTLEY: You suggested that Virgil Harris managed your campaign? WEAVER: Virgil Harris did manage my campaign. HUNTLEY: This is a Black man? WEAVER: He put up a lot of money. In those days $500 was a lot of money, but we got some TV time and some radio ads that I would have never gotten had Virgil not got in it and helped me...help me financially. Virgil Harris was one of the greatest thinkers and one of the greatest brains that I ever knew. He actually came up with the...he was the originator of the recycling program to recycle bottles, to recycle glass, to recycle cans, to recycle paper. And, he had a plan and I adopted it for my campaign, that he would...that we were going to recycle everything and save the city tons of money. And, it would have worked too, but Birmingham wasn' ; t ready for that. HUNTLEY: So, you' ; re suggesting that Virgil Harris really is the initiator of what we determine today as " ; Earth Day?" ; WEAVER: I believe so. I really think so, yes. HUNTLEY: What was the reaction of your mother to your involvement in the Movement? WEAVER: Well, my mother was a good Christian woman. And, my mother, of course, did not advise me one way or the other. She was fearful of my activity because she had married a man who was in the Air Force and they travelled around to different air force bases, but they were here when Rev. Shuttlesworth and I were involved in the mob scene at the terminal station. And, the great thing about my mother...and I' ; ll tell you how...how great a Christian she was, I said " ; momma," ; I said " ; now I' ; m going to tell them that I' ; m going north, but I' ; m really going south" ; and when the newspaper... and they contacted her, she said " ; well, to tell you the truth, my son says he' ; s going north, but he' ; s really going south." ; And another thing about that, they were in Crestview, Florida when just a little later after the terminal station episode, I was spending the night with them on Eglan Air Force Base in Fort Walton Beach, Florida and the Klan had followed me. They knew I was going somewhere down there, but they didn' ; t know where. They found my car and in the middle of the night, my mother woke up screaming that the flames were attracting so much light out front, she said " ; the house' ; s on fire." ; Well, the house wasn' ; t on fire, it was my car. The Klan burned my car in front of my mother' ; s house. HUNTLEY: In Eglan Air Force Base? WEAVER: In Eglan Air Force Base. HUNTLEY: You did take part in the mass...the mass meetings of the Alabama Christian Movement. WEAVER: Yes, on Monday nights. HUNTLEY: Can you describe what one of those meetings would be like? WEAVER: Well, as people who are here now in Birmingham, like Abraham Woods, Jr., a great worker in the early days, would tell you all the churches would not open their doors to the movement. There were some Black churches that closed their doors. Some Black ministers forbid them to meet and would not cooperate in anyway. But, some did and those few, I can remember Rev. Alfred. Alfred who is now deceased, over in North Birmingham opened the doors of his church. And there were several churches.I think Sixteenth Street opened their doors. People would come, the church would always be packed and there would be a lot of speakers and, Rev. Shuttlesworth was the leader of those meetings. And, they would threaten, the Klan would threaten that they were going to have snipers out there to shoot as we come out of the door and, as a matter of fact, a man did take a shot at me at 29th Street North on the porch of a house over there. We dug the 22 out of the wall, but that wasn' ; t coming out of the meeting. The meetings were.... HUNTLEY: Did y' ; all find out who that person was? WEAVER: No, no, I knew it was somebody next door, but we never knew who. The police would not even come out there. Well, I think they came, but nothing happened. And, the meetings...people...they would last late, 11:00 to 12:00 sometimes. And, people was all fired up, you know, and about time to break, I remember Abraham Woods was called the " ; lookout man" ; . Now, I know you' ; ve heard the expression " ; the bag man," ; please ask me about that of Bill Shortridge, but Woods would go out the back door and go around the front door and look out into the dark night to see if he could spot anything that was going on out there that might be dangerous for us to come out. And we were always afraid that they were going to shoot somebody or fire into the crowd as people came out of the churches. I did not stay for all of the meetings. I left in ' ; 57 and the meetings continued. HUNTLEY: How many Whites were involved in the meetings? WEAVER: Well, to tell you the truth, up to ' ; 57 I never saw any White people there. There could have been some, but I never saw any. After ' ; 57, I can' ; t speak for those who might have become involved or sympathetic later on. I know that there were a lot of people sympathetic to the meetings, but they didn' ; t come out prior to ' ; 57. HUNTLEY: There was mention of police who actually attended and recorded meetings. Do you remember that at all? WEAVER: Well, I' ; ve been told that and I' ; m sure it happened because the people have told me the same stories, that the meetings were recorded. But I actually never saw a White face in any of the congregations. HUNTLEY: So, you were the exception. Tell me about Mr. Shortridge. WEAVER: Later in the Movement, when people were becoming frequently arrested and, they would need to be bailed out, Shortridge was called on to get the money together and he was called " ; the bag man," ; and his wife I think is on the Civil Rights Museum now. He was as White as I am. You know, a lot of people couldn' ; t believe he was Black, but he was a great man and had a great sense of humor and he would always go out and get the money and come down, put up the bail. We called him " ; the bag man." ; HUNTLEY: So that was...I talked with his wife and she said that he was never arrested. She said if he had been, they would not have been able to get the money, because he was the man who handled the money. WEAVER: And there' ; d been a lot of them stayed in jail. HUNTLEY: What church did you attend at that time? WEAVER: Well, I attended the Norwood Baptist Church occasionally. I, I shifted around. I' ; ve never really attended a church on a regular basis. When I left Birmingham and went to Cincinnati, I joined the largest Black church up there, Revelation Baptist Church. But, I did not attend regularly. I still don' ; t attend church regularly. HUNTLEY: You joined Revelation Baptist Church? WEAVER: In Cincinnati, Ohio, right. HUNTLEY: This was a Black church? WEAVER: Yes, and my membership has been there since ' ; 57, still there. HUNTLEY: Were there other White members? WEAVER: No, I was the only White member there. HUNTLEY: You sort of stood out in your, in your career then? WEAVER: Well, I just asked the Lord to tell me the right thing to do and I tried to do it. I tried to be an example for my children, I tried to be an example for my friends. HUNTLEY: What did you do when you went to Cincinnati? First, of all, why did you leave Birmingham to go to Cincinnati? WEAVER: Well, some of my friends told me, after the episode at the terminal station, that my days were numbered and, especially after it became known that I had been hiding out here and that I went to Washington. Senator Tom Hennings, who was a senator from Missouri had asked me to come up prior to that and speak to the first committee talking about the first civil rights bill in Washington. A bill that later passed, I think in ' ; 60. It finally passed the Senate and the House. I went up there right after the episode at the terminal station and arrived amid, a bomb threat at the airport, leaving Birmingham. And, in getting there, my congressman, who was George Huddleston at the time, made it a point to meet me in the hallway when I was going to give my testimony. And called me every name in the book, told me never to come back to Birmingham, that I was the most despised man in the south. Ebony even ran an article, in June I think of ' ; 55, " ; 56 or " ; 57 that had already called me the " ; most wanted man in the South." ; HUNTLEY: So, you' ; re the White man...southern White man to... WEAVER: Testify before the Senate Sub-committee on the civil rights bill. I was the only one thatnshowed up from the south. My statement that I gave them is a matter of record in the Congressional Record. And, the man who helped me with my statement was Emory Jackson who was the editor of the Birmingham World then, and Virgil Harris. HUNTLEY: Virgil Harris keeps popping up. Then, your days then, were numbered? WEAVER: Numbered here and I left...that' ; s why I left Birmingham and got on a train and rode it to the end of the line and that was Cincinnati. That was the L& ; N and their last stop...the end of their...the train...their route was Cincinnati, Ohio. And, I was met there by Rev. George Sangster and Rev. Aaron Bland who were ministers at Revelation Baptist. They had been alerted that I was coming, and they met me with open arms. I had my typewriter, I was writing some short stories for Ebony and New Amsterdam News. I had my typewriter and my underwear. All I had was a sack, that' ; s all I had when I got there. I checked into The YMCA...stayed there two nights until Rev. Sangster took me into his home. Shortly after that, I got a job at a funeral home up there and worked for that funeral home for five years. HUNTLEY: Well, speaking of funeral homes, prior to leaving Birmingham, you, in fact, were somewhat of a fugitive in the context of being searched for...by a number of entities in the city. WEAVER: The night after the episode at the terminal station, Ernest and John Poole hid me out in the Poole Brothers Funeral Home. And, I actually got in a casket during my stay there. Aubry Bushleon who has the Bushelon Funeral Home now, was there at the time and could testify to that. But, they hid me out. Saved my life. HUNTLEY: Were people...did people come looking for you? WEAVER: Yes, they came looking for me because someone had told them (the KKK and others) that I was there. I slept at the funeral home and I actually got in a casket several times to hide during my stay there. John and Earnest Poole protected me. We were told that there was a leak somewhere and someone was giving information as to my whereabouts. We never found out for sure who did it. HUNTLEY: So, there was someone that was actually... WEAVER: Tipping them off. HUNTLEY: Tipping them off as to your location... WEAVER: My whereabouts, yes. HUNTLEY: So, when you arrived in Cincinnati, what did you do? What kind of work did you do? WEAVER: I went to work for the Witt-Good & ; Kelsch Funeral Home. My Civil Rights activities pretty well came to a halt except for some writing that I did. Occasionally, I would do something for Ebony and I did a few articles for the New Amsterdam News. Most of this was material that I had gathered throughout Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi and Florida from County seats where I questioned voting registrars as to how many Black voters were in their counties. I attended occasionally my church, Revelation Baptist Church where the Rev. George Sangster was pastor. The Rev. Aaron Bland was the assistant. Rev. Sangster dropped dead in the pulpit one Sunday morning. I encouraged the pulpit committee to ask Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth to come up from Birmingham and they did and they called him to be their pastor. I later went to work for the John Hancock Mutual Life Insurance Company where I worked for 24 years. HUNTLEY: You left Birmingham in 1957. WEAVER: ' ; 57. HUNTLEY: Did you ever visit, return, at any time? WEAVER: Maybe once or twice. But, to come back and visit. I came back well after ' ; 78 I' ; d come over often to visit. HUNTLEY: There was one thing I wanted to take you back just a bit, because in addition to...when you were running for office...in addition to running on the issue of hiring Black policemen, you also ran on the issue of integration. WEAVER: Well, I really didn' ; t just get up and make that statement in front of the cameras. I didn' ; t say that to Black audiences, and I didn' ; t say it to white audiences. My emphasis was more on let' ; s hire Blacks for the police force. Let' ; s hire Blacks for the fire department. Let' ; s give them a piece of the action. Let' ; s have a slow integration. Let' ; s do it because the Supreme Court is going to eventually say that it had to be done, should be done. So let' ; s, you know, after ' ; 54 it was just a thing of ' ; how long is it going to be?" ; And I said, you know, let' ; s do it and let' ; s show some good faith and do it gradually. HUNTLEY: What was the reception? WEAVER: Not good--threats. I was surprised the Birmingham News published one of my letters about let' ; s start now on a slow basis. HUNTLEY: So, in effect, you have always sort of stood out because of the positions that you' ; ve taken where race is concerned in Birmingham. You obviously were a unique white man in 1955-56 talking about a gradual approach toward integration, because in the main, that simply was not being done. In 1956 the NAACP is outlawed from operating in the State of Alabama and here, you, a young white man at the time, talking about the necessity to move forward in terms of integrating the society. WEAVER: My very dear friend, who is gone on to her reward, Ruby Hurley, who was a champion with the NAACP,.... we used to talk quite a bit at Arthur Shores office about that. She and Fred Shuttlesworth, just two weeks ago when I was in his church in Cincinnati, Greater New Life, we talked about those days, Rev. Shuttlesworth and I....if you get as old as I am, you start thinking back to your first Christmas, if you can remember back that far...my mind comes and goes, to be honest with you, I don' ; t remember everything, but I remember, a little red wagon and some raisons and, you know, a few tangerines, and oranges and apples. And, now, I know after health problems, that my time is limited, it' ; s a cycle. So, as a Christian, we like to think that we have done the right thing. Whether it was a Christian decision sometimes, I don' ; t know, but we' ; d like to think that it was a right decision. I' ; d like my children to think it' ; s a right decision. I' ; d like people to just think of me as a person who tried to do the right thing and make the right decision at the right time. HUNTLEY: Did you ever have any relationship with W. C. Patten? Did you know W. C. Patten? He was involved with the NAACP, voting rights and they may have been...well I know it was prior to your leaving, but also, he was active... WEAVER: Was he in the funeral business too? Did he have a funeral home? HUNTLEY: I don' ; t have...I don' ; t think so. WEAVER: The name is very familiar, and I can' ; t remember. HUNTLEY: Right, but he was very active with the NAACP and with ... WEAVER: Ruby Hurley was my main person to contact with the NAACP. HUNTLEY: Okay. What impact do you think the Birmingham Movement had upon this community and the nation? WEAVER: Well, I' ; ve said all along that I think in Birmingham is where it all started. The most impressionable things that have happened in the Civil Rights Movement, to my mind, and I don' ; t want to sound morbid, but were the killing of the four children and the assassination of Dr. King. Those were the things that stand out. But, we all know that in Birmingham, the movement started and especially around Bessemer and Brookwood in some of those mining shafts. The truth will never be known until the judgment day and all these holes and wells and shafts give up their dead because a lot of people died in those early days, a lot of people disappeared. I think that Birmingham and the Movement in Birmingham really started people thinking. I know that...and this can be found in some of the newspaper articles which I have and which I' ; ve submitted. Eleanor Roosevelt even said that the civil rights movement got a tremendous push by the efforts in Birmingham especially with Fred Shuttlesworth, with the bombing of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church, with those early meetings, spread to Montgomery, and we think it did spread to Montgomery. And then of course, Dr. King came along and came at the right time, at the right place and was a great man and he' ; s a saint now. He made his mark and led the demonstrations nationwide, the march on Washington, but in my heart and in my autobiography, Bury My Heart in Birmingham, I' ; m going to talk a lot about the Birmingham Movement and those who were involved and where credit should be given. HUNTLEY: How far are you along with your autobiography? WEAVER: I' ; m almost finished with it. I wanted to share some with you today, but I didn' ; t bring it, but I' ; m almost finished. I' ; m taking some pictures...I want to have some pictures in there. I can' ; t take the picture of some of these people, but I can take a picture of their gravestone and tell about their sacrifices and what they did in the early Movement. Viola Liuzzo, the woman who was shot on the bus, the Lutheran minister who came down on the bus from the north, never to go back alive, who was beaten at Selma and who had to be taken to a Birmingham hospital where he died four days later. The young man, Jimmy Johnson, who really stirred up the march in Selma because he was killed trying to help his mother in a mob attack. There' ; s just a lot of people that we' ; ve got to remember that should be remembered for their families..for their family trees, ' ; cause somebody always wants to know, why...how did it happen...where. So, we got to make some statements. HUNTLEY: Well, we' ; re looking with great anticipation to your autobiography, and what we' ; re doing at the Civil Rights Institute, is simply to attempt to gather the information for the real story of Birmingham and of course, you' ; ve played a tremendous role in that. WEAVER: Well, let me just say this too, that when the thought came up and was promoted by Dr. Arrington to build the Civil Rights Museum and I understand they spent $15 million? HUNTLEY: About $10 million. WEAVER: Yes, this was heard around the world. This was heard in Atlanta like a bombshell, in Cincinnati like a bombshell. These tour buses are converging on Birmingham and they want to see this museum and I think that this has done a tremendous amount of good and the people behind this are to be commended. There' ; ve been little museums started here and there, but nothing of this magnitude and what you have here and you' ; re to be commended and its great. And, it' ; s a pleasure to even have a mention in the museum if nothing else, Lamar Weaver was a worker. HUNTLEY: That' ; s for sure. That' ; s an understatement. Let me just ask you one other question that relate to a person who was very instrumental in the development of the Birmingham Movement, but also had to leave Birmingham and that' ; s Fred Shuttlesworth. And, I hear that you were instrumental in his eventually coming to Cincinnati. Can you tell me a little about that? WEAVER: Well, always let it be said that I' ; m privileged to stand in Fred Shuttlesworth' ; s shadow. I could have been called in the early days as a follower of Fred and I don' ; t want to take anything away from anybody else who worked in the movement. But, Fred Shuttlesworth was a great person, and as a member when I left here and joined the Revelation Baptist Church in Cincinnati, our pastor dropped dead of a heart attack and I recommended to the pulpit committee that they talk to Fred and they asked Fred to come up there. As a matter of fact, I even sent Fred some money to come and he came, he spoke and they fell in love with him. They called him on the spot and he became the pastor of Revelation Baptist Church, and I told him two weeks ago, when I was at Greater New Life, he was my pastor for a while, you know, because I was a member there, and Fred Shuttlesworth had chose to take a dissatisfied division of the church and go to another site and they built a beautiful new church and he is still there, pastor of Greater New Life and doing great work in Cincinnati...has done a great work. HUNTLEY: Okay, well I want to thank you for taking your time and driving over from Atlanta this morning to come and sit and talk with us to give us your perception of what took place in Birmingham because that' ; s a rather unique perspective that you have, being one of the few whites that were actively involved in the struggle. Again, thank you for coming. WEAVER: Thank you. HUNTLEY: I thought that went very well. WEAVER: Well, you made it...my mind comes and goes and I have to confess to you, I would have like to have said a few words about my children, there are six. My first and second children both were girls, their mother remarried and changed their names, but when one got 18 and one got 21, they set out to find me and find me they did. And one of them lives in Huntsville, and one of them in Huntsville, is a volunteer for the AIDS community up there. HUNTLEY: What are their names? WEAVER: My daughter' ; s name down here in Brookwood is Mrs. Joyce Lewis and my daughter in Huntsville is Christine Huggins and they call me at least once a month and say " ; daddy I love you," ; and the one in Huntsville says " ; I am so happy that you made the decision that you made," ; and she said " ; my mother was wrong and my grandpa was wrong," ; and she said " ; and you were right, and I' ; m so proud of you daddy." ; So, I get this kind of love from my family and this makes me feel good. My other children are Robert Charles Weaver, Sheryl Ann Weaver, Debra Joyce Weaver, and David Lamar Weaver, all are living in Atlanta. HUNTLEY: That' ; s great. That' ; ll be part of the transcript, if you don' ; t mind. WEAVER: I want you to know that I am grateful for this opportunity and I want you to know that Lamar Weaver is nothing but one of the workers and that I never thought of losing my life. We weren' ; t afraid back in those days. Now, we' ; re afraid, see. Somebody told me the other day, said that " ; you come back down here, they been asking about you in Bessemer." ; And they said " ; be careful." ; But, now we think about that, but then, we didn' ; t think and you know the greatest thing to me is, I was a part of change. I helped bring about change. HUNTLEY: You certainly did. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=LWeaver1995.xml LWeaver1995.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rev. Lamar Weaver
Description
An account of the resource
Rev. Lamar Weaver discusses getting to know Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth as he got more involved in the Movement. Weaver ran against Bull Connor on an anti-segregation platform.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
19950316W
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
16th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.)
Union Terminal Station (Birmingham, Ala.)
Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights
Bull Connor--Commissioner of Public Safety--Birmingham, Ala.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1995-03-16
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/fa7c4fa02c40f6e5976caf17f71898da.jpg
a950f8126a2121bdacfadb4e9ba6e4e5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Horace Huntley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Joseph Lewis Rogers
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JLRogers1995.xml
Interview Keyword
This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are
included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
Republic Steel Corporation
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 March 2, 1995 Rev. Joseph Lewis Rogers Interviewed on March 2, 1995 1995032R 0:33:44 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Jess Holdnak Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham United States. National Industrial Recovery Act of 1933 Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Miles College Republic Steel Corporation Joseph Lewis Rogers Horace Huntley Video 1:|16(2)|48(3)|87(3)|117(12)|139(1)|165(5)|190(4)|214(10)|239(14)|263(6)|291(10)|312(5)|336(5)|350(15)|377(3)|402(3)|425(4)|450(10)|461(6)|476(12)|506(5)|536(5)|558(11)|570(9)|598(8)|618(17)|643(5)|652(11)|675(9)|698(9)|721(3)|731(11)|746(6) 0 https://youtu.be/ZeqP628bN0Q YouTube video English 0 Introduction H: Good morning, my name is Dr. Horace Huntley and I am here this morning with Rev. Joseph Lewis Rogers and we are doing this interview for the Civil Rights Institute. Today is March 2, 1995 and I would like to say thank you Rev. Rogers for coming out to sit with us today to talk about your life in Birmingham and the Civil Rights Movement. Introduction of interview with Rev. Joseph Lewis Rogers by Dr. Horace Huntley. Rogers, Joseph Lewis Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 37 Moving to Birmingham Let me just start by asking you what part of the state are your parents from? R: My parents are from Montgomery, Alabama. H: Were you born in Montgomery? R: Montgomery. Rev. Rogers discusses growing up and moving to Birmingham at age 16. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Montgomery (Ala.) 125 Early Career H: I see. Well what .... did you work when you came to Birmingham? R: Yes sir. H: What was your job? R: My job was keeping the furnace heated up. H: And, for what company did you work for? R: Gimmicks Pipe Shop. Rev. Rogers talks about his first jobs in Birmingham. He also mentions being an only child. American Red Eagle ; Gimmicks Pipe Shope Birmingham (Ala.) 265 Lewisburg Coal Mine and Union R: Yes, I went to the coal mine. H: What was your job in the coal mine? R: In the coal mine I was loading coal. Rev. Rogers talks about working at the coal mine, working as the first black check weighman, and becoming Vice President of the local union. Lewisburg Coal Mine African American coal miners ; United Mine Workers of America ; United States. National Industrial Recovery Act of 1933 437 Republic Steel R: After that, I left Lewisburg and went to Republic Steel. Rev. Rogers describes his time at Republic Steel. Republic Steel Corporation 505 North Birmingham Community H: Tell me a little about your community. What was your community like? R: I had a very nice community. H: What community did you live in? R: North Birmingham. Rev. Rogers talks about living in North Birmingham with his family. U.S. Pipe African American families ; African American life 623 The Alabama Christian Movement H: The Alabama Christian Movement? R: Un huh. H: How did you get involved with the Civil Rights Movement? R: Well, Shuttlesworth was my friend, and through him, we worked together in the churches and then we worked together in the movement. Rev. Rogers discusses becoming involved with he Civil Right Movement through the Alabama Christian Movement and his friend Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth. He talks about his role as a pastor and as president of the Movement's finance committee. He also mentions police watching meetings, being stoped by police, and his wife involvement in the Movement. Shady Grove Baptist Church African American churches ; African American civic leaders ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Civil rights movement ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 763 Mass Meetings H: Well tell me, what was a mass meeting like? R: Well, it would seem like a church mostly because all of them were looking like religious people, the way we operate was just like a church. We would have a meeting, singing, praying and lifting an offering and speakers. Rev. Rogers talks about what it was like to go to mass meetings. He also discusses his wife's support and involvement in the Movement. African American religious leaders ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Civil rights movement 960 Reasons for and Benefits of the Civil Rights Movement H: What benefits do you think your family, the community realized as a result of the Movement? R: Well, we have a lot of benefits and changes in lots of things. Places you couldn't go, well we have to ________ we could go there. A lot of things that we thought was wrong, it was right. Rev. Rogers talks about why he thinks the Civil Rights Movement was necessary and what changes he saw as a result of the Movement. He mentions personally being stoped by the police, and finding bodies on the railroad. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1220 Church Involvement H: Were members of your church active in the Movement? R: Yes, they were very active. H: What did they say when you got involved as a minister? Did you get involved first or did your church get involved? Rev. Rogers talks about North Birmingham churches' involvement in the Movement. He also mentions his carpentry work including building four churches. He briefly mentions his work on the finance committee. Primitive Baptist African American churches ; African American religious leaders ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1532 Shuttlesworth and Selective Buying H: Is there anything else that you would like to just share with people, because I know that you have a lot of information about the Movement? What was your relationship for instance with Shuttlesworth? R: Shuttlesworth and I worked together in our churches. He just like a brother, any time I need him, he'd come and any time he needed me, I would come to the rescue. If he had to go somewhere, needed some money and didn't have enough, he'd call me and he'd go. Rev. Rogers talks about his friend Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth as well as the selective buying/ boycott campaign in Birmingham. He mentions the involvement of students from Miles College. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Civil rights movement ; Miles College ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1913 Church Membership H: So you have then, been with your church since 1943? R: I've been there 57 years, but that's my membership church. Rev. Rogers ends the interview by talking about his membership and leadership in his church. African American churches ; African American religious leaders 1972 Conclusion Well, I want to thank you for coming and spending the time with me today and I am going to take these materials here that you've given me, and go through them and write some things out as well, but it is very obvious that we are glad that we had the opportunity to sit down with you and talk with you about your life and times in Birmingham. Rogers, Joseph Lewis Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Oral History Rev. J. L. Rogers discusses being an early organizer of the Movement through his friend, Fred Shuttlesworth. Rogers worked in coal, iron and steel before becoming a pastoring Shady Grove Baptist church and serving on the board of the ACMHR. HUNTLEY: Good morning, my name is Dr. Horace Huntley and I am here this morning with Rev. Joseph Lewis Rogers and we are doing this interview for the Civil Rights Institute. Today is March 2, 1995 and I would like to say thank you Rev. Rogers for coming out to sit with us today to talk about your life in Birmingham and the Civil Rights Movement. Let me just start by asking you what part of the state are your parents from? ROGERS: My parents are from Montgomery, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Montgomery? ROGERS: Montgomery. HUNTLEY: How long did you live in Montgomery before you moved to Birmingham? ROGERS: About 15 years. HUNTLEY: Did you ever visit Birmingham before you moved to Birmingham? ROGERS: When I was a kid. HUNTLEY: Who did you visit? ROGERS: My aunt. HUNTLEY: Okay, did you...how old were you? Did you remember coming up to visit Birmingham several times? ROGERS: I was four years old. HUNTLEY: Four years old, and you stayed with her maybe during the summer? ROGERS: For about six weeks. HUNTLEY: Okay, and then you went back to Montgomery? ROGERS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And then, how old were you when you came to Birmingham to live? ROGERS: I came to Birmingham to live ; I was 16 years old. HUNTLEY: And how long did you stay when you came the first time? ROGERS: The first time, I stayed about three months and went back to Montgomery. HUNTLEY: And you went back to Montgomery and what did you do in Montgomery when you went back? ROGERS: I went back to Montgomery and finished elementary school. HUNTLEY: I see. Well whatdid you work when you came to Birmingham? ROGERS: Yes sir. HUNTLEY: What was your job? ROGERS: My job was keeping the furnace heated up. HUNTLEY: And, for what company did you work for? ROGERS: Gimmicks Pipe Shop. HUNTLEY: Gimmicks Pipe Shop. Where was that located? ROGERS: North Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Okay. How many brothers and sisters did you have? ROGERS: No brothers, no sisters. HUNTLEY: You' ; re the only child? ROGERS: The only child. HUNTLEY: Were you spoiled? ROGERS: Yes, with a treetop. HUNTLEY: How much education did you have? ROGERS: When I came to Birmingham I had finished elementary school. HUNTLEY: Okay, and when you came back to Birmingham, did you then go back and work for a pipe shop, the second time, when you came to live in Birmingham permanently? ROGERS: When I came back I didn' ; t go to the pipe shop ; I went to the icehouse. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the icehouse. ROGERS: The icehouse, I rolled coal there to keep the furnace rolling. HUNTLEY: Can you try to describe that job? ROGERS: Well, it was a big furnace there and I had to roll enough coal in the day for the night fireman to fire it during that night. HUNTLEY: So, you fire during the day? ROGERS: No, I just put the coal there. HUNTLEY: Oh, you just made sure the coal was there. How long did you do that, how long did you work there? ROGERS: I stayed there for about four months. HUNTLEY: And then, what did you do afterwards? ROGERS: After that, I went to the American Red Eagle. HUNTLEY: Okay, and what did you do out there? ROGERS: I was an assistant to the foreman. HUNTLEY: Did you make radiators? ROGERS: The company made radiator heaters, I was assistant to the foreman and would have to take in new and take out old ones ; keep the sand clean formed the mold with. HUNTLEY: After that, you then went to the coal mines, is that right? ROGERS: Yes, I went to the coal mine. HUNTLEY: What was your job in the coal mine? ROGERS: In the coal mine I was loading coal. HUNTLEY: Loading coal. For how long, how long did you work there? ROGERS: Oh, I worked in the coal mines 20 years. HUNTLEY: Were you a member of the union? ROGERS: I was a member of the union when they got organized. They got organized in ' ; 33. HUNTLEY: ' ; 33. The NIRA, National Industrial Recovery Act. Well, how active were you with the union? Were you ever an official in the union itself? Did you work on any committees? ROGERS: I was on the committee and I was vice president of the local. HUNTLEY: Vice president of the local, so you were very active. You mean there were Black vice presidents at that time of the local unions? ROGERS: Yes. White president and a Black vice. HUNTLEY: Oh, there was always a White president and a Black vice president? ROGERS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Oh, why was that? ROGERS: Well, they were trying to...whatsoever a man was qualified to do, they were trying to get him to do that job. HUNTLEY: I see. I noticed also you were elected to be check weighmen. The first in the State of Alabama in 1937. ROGERS: The first Black, in 1937. HUNTLEY: What is the job of a check weighmen? ROGERS: Sit up on the top house where the coal come out and weigh it when it goes across the scale. HUNTLEY: How was that job? Did you enjoy that job? ROGERS: Well, I enjoyed partly and partly I didn' ; t. HUNTLEY: What did you enjoy about it? ROGERS: I enjoyed seeing the coal roll across the scales and giving them just weight, but I didn' ; t like it so well, that strife when I come down off the truck. HUNTLEY: What kind of strife did you get when you came down? ROGERS: Well, they threaten me and all that type of stuff. HUNTLEY: Why did they threaten you? ROGERS: They didn' ; t want a Black man to have that job because number one, they had never had one in the State of Alabama. HUNTLEY: Oh, that was a White man' ; s job and so therefore you were threatened by other Whites. Well, what did Black workers say about your being a check weighmen? ROGERS: Well, the Blacks, we had a few of them. They didn' ; t like it, they were with the other fellows, but it was just a few of them. HUNTLEY: Well, were you supported by the union? ROGERS: Supported by the union. HUNTLEY: How long did you remain as check weighmen? ROGERS: Well, one year. HUNTLEY: One year, and then what did you do after that? ROGERS: After that, I left Lewisburg and went to Republic Steel. HUNTLEY: How long were you at Republic Steel? ROGERS: I was at Republic Steel from the latter part of 37 until 43. HUNTLEY: What was your job at Republic Steel? ROGERS: My job at Republic Steel was the coke roller, loading coal and a committeeman. HUNTLEY: What was your pay like? ROGERS: We were working by the ton. Making around about $200 a month. HUNTLEY: Was that pretty good money for that time? ROGERS: Yes, that was pretty good. HUNTLEY: Is that why the White workers didn' ; t want a Black worker on that job because it made more money? ROGERS: Well, the Constitution give a person a right to a job regardless as to what it was, if they were qualified for it. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your community. What was your community like? ROGERS: I had a very nice community. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in? ROGERS: North Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the make-up. Were there people with different kinds of occupations, people with different kinds of occupations? What kind of work did the people do that lived around you? ROGERS: Well, there were several plants. There were several stove foundries and there was U S Pipe, what is Jim Walter now, it was Dimmicks then. It Dimmicks and went to U S Pipe, left U S Pipe and Jim Walter now. Now, that was a great place to work and they had several foundries there where you make stoves. HUNTLEY: Who were your neighbors? ROGERS: Well, I had so many neighbors. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did they do? ROGERS: Well, some mined, some worked in the foundries and others in factories, things like that. HUNTLEY: You were married? ROGERS: Yes. HUNTLEY: You have children? ROGERS: Two. HUNTLEY: Two children. Were your children real young when you were working in the mines. ROGERS: No, they weren' ; t with me, they were in school. HUNTLEY: I see, they were in school at the time. Were you a member of any community organizations? ROGERS: None but the United Mine Workers. HUNTLEY: Okay, so that kept you pretty busy. ROGERS: Until the organization came in. HUNTLEY: The Alabama Christian Movement? ROGERS: Un huh. HUNTLEY: How did you get involved with the Civil Rights Movement? ROGERS: Well, Shuttles worth was my friend, and through him, we worked together in the churches and then we worked together in the movement. HUNTLEY: How did you get to know Shuttlesworth? ROGERS: Well, he pastored one of my neighborhood churches. HUNTLEY: In North Birmingham? ROGERS: Un huh. HUNTLEY: You are a pastor as well. When did you become a pastor? ROGERS: I became a pastor in ' ; 43. HUNTLEY: In 1943. What church were you a member of at the time? ROGERS: Shady Grove Baptist Church. The same church I' ; m pastoring now. HUNTLEY: Did you become pastor of the church in 1943. ROGERS: Yes. That was my membership church when the pastor died and I had been preaching about two years and they made a choice of me and I been there ever since. HUNTLEY: Okay, so from 1943 you' ; ve been at Shady Grove and the movement...the Alabama Christian Movement of Human Rights would be organized in 1956. Were you one of those initial people that helped to organize the movement? ROGERS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were you there at the first meetings? ROGERS: No, I wasn' ; t at the first one. HUNTLEY: But you were there sometime in the early period? ROGERS: Yes sir. HUNTLEY: What role did you play in the Movement? ROGERS: I was president of the Finance Committee. HUNTLEY: What did that entail, what did you do? ROGERS: I would take the money to the bank. HUNTLEY: So, you handled the money. You must have been one of those that was very well trusted then. Did you attend all of the mass meetings? ROGERS: Just about all of them. The only reason I didn' ; t attend would be if I was out of town. HUNTLEY: Well tell me, what was a mass meeting like? ROGERS: Well, it would seem like a church mostly because all of them were looking like religious people, the way we operate was just like a church. We would have a meeting, singing, praying and lifting an offering and speakers. HUNTLEY: Why were the meetings so popular? ROGERS: To me, the reason they were so popular it was set up on a Christian base. Most of the people were Christian people. HUNTLEY: So, did most people feel that there was a need for some kind of change? ROGERS: Oh yes. HUNTLEY: What kind of changes were necessary? ROGERS: Well they wanted to change many things, where other people could get jobs and where they should have them, such as changing at the depot, changing bathrooms. HUNTLEY: During the time of the Movement, you were very active and in attending those mass meetings, were police there? ROGERS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Why were they there? ROGERS: They were there to take notes of what we were doing. HUNTLEY: So, in other words, they were there to spy on you? Did you go to jail? ROGERS: No, I never went to jail. I don' ; t know why I didn' ; t. Folks all around me, but I never did go to jail. HUNTLEY: Well, you had to take care of the money. If you had gone to jail.... ROGERS: Yeah, I got them out of jail when they got in jail. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. So, if the man with the money is in jail, the movement would have been in trouble. Did others in your family participate? ROGERS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Who participated? ROGERS: My wife. HUNTLEY: Was she ever arrested? ROGERS: No, she wasn' ; t ever arrested. HUNTLEY: How did your wife react? Did she go to the meetings with you? ROGERS: Well, sometimes. She didn' ; t go real regular. HUNTLEY: Well, what was her reaction to your being involved in the Movement? ROGERS: My action in the movement was to help straighten it out, help righting the wrongs. HUNTLEY: Well did your wife go along with you? ROGERS: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: Was she supportive of you? ROGERS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did she ever say don' ; t go tonight? ROGERS: Never did. HUNTLEY: That' ; s quite an accomplishment there then, if your wife never discouraged you. What benefits do you think your family, the community realized as a result of the Movement? ROGERS: Well, we have a lot of benefits and changes in lots of things. Places you couldn' ; t go, well we have to we could go there. A lot of things that we thought was wrong, it was right. HUNTLEY: Are there any incidences that you may have been involved with during the struggle that you would like to share with us? Were you ever stopped by the police, for instance? ROGERS: Oh, yes, I was stopped by the police. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. ROGERS: Well, if he didn' ; t do anything but stop me and ask me where was I going, and I told them and they told me well you can' ; t go there you have to go this way. HUNTLEY: So, did that upset you? ROGERS: No, never did. HUNTLEY: Is that the only time that you were stopped by the police? ROGERS: No, I was stopped several times. They would stop me and questioned me. HUNTLEY: You were never roughed up or anything by the police? The police never beat you? ROGERS: No, and never was arrested. HUNTLEY: Did they ever harass you? Did you ever get telephone calls at your house? People harassing you about being involved in the Movement? ROGERS: Well, several times they could call but they wouldn' ; t give no names. They were people against the movement. HUNTLEY: What would they say when they call you? ROGERS: Well " ; y' ; all think you gonna win, but you ain' ; t gonna win." ; HUNTLEY: So, the Movement then, in your opinion, was very necessary? ROGERS: It was necessary. HUNTLEY: Why do you think it started, when it did? Why do you think that in 1956, the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights organized? ROGERS: Well, I got interested in it after Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat. Then Martin Luther King and Shuttles worth got together, and it was necessary. HUNTLEY: We do know that the Movement was very, very necessary. What do you think, if there were any, were there any failures within the Movement? ROGERS: Well, lots of things failed, but it wasn' ; t too much. HUNTLEY: So, you think that it was basically successful? ROGERS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you briefly talk about some of the changes that you' ; ve seen over the time when you first came to Birmingham and today? How has Birmingham changed over time? ROGERS: It has changed considerably. When I first came to Birmingham, you find a dead man on the street or on a railroad most any day. But it doesn' ; t happen like that now. HUNTLEY: Did you ever determine who those people were and why they were dead? ROGERS: Well, some were chalked up like the train rolled over them and some threw in water and some in bushes and like that but mostly somebody would get killed every night. HUNTLEY: You said this was part of the harassment and intimidation of Black people? ROGERS: Well, that was before this organization was and I think this organization helped to curb a lot of that. HUNTLEY: Were members of your church active in the Movement? ROGERS: Yes, they were very active. HUNTLEY: What did they say when you got involved as a minister? Did you get involved first or did your church get involved? ROGERS: Me. HUNTLEY: What did your members say when you first got involved? ROGERS: The lined up, took part and went to jail, just like the other people did. HUNTLEY: Did you ever have meetings at your church? ROGERS: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: Many of those meetings were led by members of your church, I assume? ROGERS: Yes, and members of different churches. HUNTLEY: Because you would go from different churches all over the city? Was yours on the regular circuit? ROGERS: Yes sir, that' ; s right. HUNTLEY: How many churches in North Birmingham were involved? ROGERS: Oh, just about everyone. HUNTLEY: Did all the ministers supported what was happening with the Movement in North Birmingham? ROGERS: It was supported real nicely. HUNTLEY: Were there any churches in Birmingham that didn' ; t support the Movement? ROGERS: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: There were. But in North Birmingham, you basically had most of the churches in support and you could use all of those churches for meetings? ROGERS: Well, a lot of them you couldn' ; t use because they couldn' ; t hold the people. The crowds...now they didn' ; t come to our church regular because our church would hold only about 500-600 men. HUNTLEY: You are a carpenter also, right? ROGERS: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: Didn' ; t you build your church? ROGERS: I built four churches. I built the one I' ; m pastoring and three others. HUNTLEY: What are the others that you built? ROGERS: I built Primitive Baptist and three Baptist churches. HUNTLEY: All in Birmingham? ROGERS: Have you built homes as well? ROGERS: I got burned out in l946, that' ; s when I started to build, and I built my own house. HUNTLEY: Built your own house, built your own church? ROGERS: Built the church and the house. HUNTLEY: You are not building any now are you? ROGERS: No, I couldn' ; t do it, now. HUNTLEY: I was going to get you to build me one if you were still building. Do you remember any other occurrences, anything that happened during the movement that would be of interest, that people would like to know about? ROGERS: Well, a lot of things they would like to know about. Some would like to know that places they couldn' ; t go, restrooms they couldn' ; t use, and the Movement opened a lot of doors that was closed. HUNTLEY: What about the internal workings of the Movement? You know, we see all of the films, people marching. We see people on the church steps, but what about the business meetings within the Movement, how did those meetings usually go? ROGERS: Well, when you had real business meetings, we didn' ; t want anybody else in on it, why it was just the officers. HUNTLEY: Did you do any fund raising? Did you raise any money for the Movement? ROGERS: Oh, yes. I was Chairman of the Finance Committee, I had to raise it. HUNTLEY: How did you raise money? ROGERS: Well, I would go from church to church and people would, you know, give me donations and like that. HUNTLEY: Did you ever do any speaking? ROGERS: Yes, sir. HUNTLEY: Around Birmingham? Did you ever go outside of Birmingham? ROGERS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Where did you go? ROGERS: I went to Montgomery, down to Jasper, Carbonhill. HUNTLEY: So, you were pretty well known. When you went in, did you normally come out with money? ROGERS: Oh, yes, they would give me donations. HUNTLEY: When the demonstrations were going on and people were being arrested, then you were not arrested because you had to sign the checks? ROGERS: Well, I don' ; t know why they didn' ; t arrest me. They arrested them all around me, but they never did arrest me. HUNTLEY: That' ; s interesting. So, you could have been arrested, but they would never arrest you? ROGERS: Right. HUNTLEY: You were a pretty big man, right? ROGERS: I was as little as I am now. HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to just share with people, because I know that you have a lot of information about the Movement? What was your relationship for instance with Shuttlesworth? ROGERS: Shuttlesworth and I worked together in our churches. He just like a brother, any time I need him, he' ; d come and any time he needed me, I would come to the rescue. If he had to go somewhere, needed some money and didn' ; t have enough, he' ; d call me and he' ; d go. HUNTLEY: So, how far was your church from his church? ROGERS: About three blocks. HUNTLEY: So, the two of you then, worked very closely together? ROGERS: Yes. HUNTLEY: When he first started in developing the Movement, were you one of the first that he called to participate? ROGERS: Well, I wasn' ; t first, but I was in the first crowd. I was one of the first ones. HUNTLEY: I see. The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights then would probably have your stamp on it? ROGERS: Yes, I have a plaque from the Alabama Christian Movement. HUNTLEY: You have a plaque for the service that you rendered to them? ROGERS: Yes. HUNTLEY: If you were to had the ability to change anything in the Movement, what would you change? ROGERS: Well, if I did have the ability to change one thing, that' ; s on the annual days such as Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving, and change it and have the people know that there was no such thing as Black man and White man. I would have them quit going to the stores, not after I selected bargains come through, so that' ; s one of my ideas. Don' ; t buy them. Teach your dollars some sense. HUNTLEY: Teach your dollars some sense. Why would you do that? ROGERS: Well, because the people was they were against us. HUNTLEY: So, you were trying to put pressure on those... ROGERS: On their livelihood. HUNTLEY: Did that work? ROGERS: Yeah, it worked. HUNTLEY: How did you do that? ROGERS: Well, we just made the announcement and Miles College and the people in other churches and mostly schools couldn' ; t participate like Miles College. Dr. Kitt would turn them loose and let them march. HUNTLEY: So, Miles was very active? ROGERS: Oh, Miles played a great part. HUNTLEY: So, you then, were one of those that sort of enticed Miles to get involved in the selective buying? Was that your strategy? ROGERS: Shuttlesworth. HUNTLEY: Shuttlesworth. But you would carry it out? ROGERS: And we would carry it out together. We worked together on committee work we would work together. HUNTLEY: How active were the students from Miles College? ROGERS: Oh, they were active. They were ready to go anytime you' ; d say go. HUNTLEY: Well, how did they keep people from going into the stores? ROGERS: Marching, marching. We had some regular people, you know marching on the street. But, when we got ready for that march, well they were there. HUNTLEY: Well, what about selective buying? Did everybody just agree not to go into the stores? Was there ever anybody that wanted to go in? ROGERS: Now that was my idea on that. That was one thing that I shared with him, told me that would kind of slow them down. Because, no money, nothing to eat. HUNTLEY: So, money speaks. ROGERS: Yeah. HUNTLEY: How did you select the store to boycott or did you just boycott all the stores? ROGERS: Didn' ; t select them, just any of them. HUNTLEY: So, any of the stores downtown. Were there ever anybody, any Black people that went on in and bought anyway? ROGERS: Well, some slipped in and they quit slipping and went ordering it by mail. HUNTLEY: What would happen if students were standing there boycotting the store or picketing the store and someone would try to go in? ROGERS: Well, I would ask them not to go in, but if he went on in, we wouldn' ; t bother them. HUNTLEY: So, no one ever bothered because they went in? ROGERS: No, we were peaceful. HUNTLEY: So that strategy then was used here in Birmingham and was used in other places as well. Had you seen it used before or was that your idea? ROGERS: My idea. I started it on our church. The members were spending a lot of money unnecessary money and I told them " ; I don' ; t want no body on Easter with a new outfit and the people saw how much money they were saving on Easter and they said they were glad that I insisted that. One man told me, I saved him about $300. HUNTLEY: So, you have then, been with your church since 1943? ROGERS: I' ; ve been there 57 years, but that' ; s my membership church. HUNTLEY: But you have been the leader of the church since 1943? That is quite an accomplishment. ROGERS: I served all the way through on every auxiliary in the church. HUNTLEY: So, people must have a lot of confidence in you as a result of that. I see that you celebrated your 50th anniversary in 1993? ROGERS: Yes, this year would be what, 50? HUNTLEY: 52. That' ; s okay. You' ; ve done your time. Well, I want to thank you for coming and spending the time with me today and I am going to take these materials here that you' ; ve given me, and go through them and write some things out as well, but it is very obvious that we are glad that we had the opportunity to sit down with you and talk with you about your life and times in Birmingham. ROGERS: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JLRogers1995.xml JLRogers1995.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rev. Joseph Lewis Rogers
Description
An account of the resource
Rev. J. L. Rogers discusses being an early organizer of the Movement through his friend, Fred Shuttlesworth. Rogers worked in coal, iron and steel before becoming a pastoring Shady Grove Baptist church and serving on the board of the ACMHR.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
1995032R
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
United States. National Industrial Recovery Act of 1933
Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011
Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights
Miles College
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1995-03-02
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/4efdbea2c8c521bb1eeab50cdd3b3c96.jpg
d380daf58af6111671d44e3d874c1f5e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Horace Huntley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
John T. Porter
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JTPorter1997.xml
Interview Keyword
This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are
included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
King, Alfred Daniel (1930-1969)
Smith, Nelson (1930-2006)
King, Martin Luther, 1899-1984
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 March 26, 1997 Rev. John T. Porter 19970326P 1:10:30 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Dexter Avenue Baptist Church (Montgomery, Ala.) Ebenezer Baptist Church (Atlanta, Ga.) King, Alfred Daniel (1930-1969) Smith, Nelson (1930-2006) King, Martin Luther, 1899-1984 John T. Porter Horace Huntley Video 1:|16(10)|40(7)|50(9)|62(8)|72(1)|83(4)|99(6)|112(5)|130(3)|145(10)|155(8)|167(10)|179(6)|191(10)|199(14)|215(10)|238(14)|256(3)|273(13)|283(5)|291(6)|300(4)|312(10)|324(12)|340(7)|355(4)|374(11)|389(3)|402(10)|409(7)|423(7)|440(14)|451(10)|462(4)|477(14)|489(13)|499(2)|508(1)|520(4)|530(14)|548(9)|561(4)|572(10)|583(8)|594(5)|602(13)|612(12)|622(10)|632(7)|642(1)|653(1)|667(2)|676(13)|687(7)|700(13)|710(15)|726(2)|737(12)|746(8)|756(6)|767(3)|776(10)|786(1)|794(13)|805(10)|822(3)|829(12)|840(9)|852(6)|861(14) 0 https://youtu.be/Ky7n8ghAvvk YouTube video English 0 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Reverend John Thomas Porter for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Reverend John Thomas Porter is introduced. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history interview 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 30 Family Background I'd like to ask you first of all, were your parents originally from Birmingham? Porter states that he was born in Birmingham, Alabama and grew up in the Titusville neighborhood. His parents lived in Pittsville, Alabama and came to Birmingham, where his father and mother worked for the president of the Alabama Company. Alabama Power Company ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Martin, Thomas W. ; Pittsview (Ala.) ; Titusville Community African American families 590 The Titusville Community What was Titusville like in those early days that you were growing up? Porter describes the community in Titusville and how his school, Washington Elementary, fit within it. He also compares the maintenance difference between the white & ; Black neighborhoods. Booker T. Washington Elementary School ; Titusville Neighborhood (Ala.) Communities, contexts, and cultures 942 School Experiences & ; Leadership Development After Washington Elementary, then you went on to some other little school? Porter details his experience in attending both Ullman & ; Parker High Schools, and how he became involved with the student council. He led small political movements, one of which involved boycotting & ; protesting a faculty member at Parker High. student activism ; student council ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 1197 How Birmingham Impacted a Worldview How did this period of living in Birmingham impact upon your life as the way that you would view your future and view your world? Porter describes how his acceptance of the status quo shifted into unrest as he became older, especially when he became aware of segregation and the discrepancy of how he was addressed as opposed to white people. Introspection ; Self-evaluation Birmingham (Ala.) ; Protest, culture and society 1452 Relationship with Siblings You being the younger of the children, what kind of relationship did you have with your brothers and sister? Porter describes the positive relationship that he has with his siblings, despite somewhat growing away from them due to his moving to college. He also recounts times where one of his brother would proudly introduce Porter to his friends as his " ; college brother." ; African American families 1577 Experience at Alabama State University What was your transition like then from high school to college? Porter recounts his time at Alabama State University, where he took on many leadership roles. In his senior year of college, he became ill with tuberculosis, which caused him to take a break for two years before returning. African American college graduates ; Tuberculosis Alabama State University 1895 Meeting & ; Working with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. When you returned then for your senior year, you then had an experience to meet an individual that would have an impact upon the entire country and the world. Porter details how he became involved with Martin Luther King, Jr., which included working with him at Dexter Avenue Baptist Church. After graduating from Alabama State, Porter worked with Martin Luther King, Sr. at Ebenezer Church. African American preaching ; Dexter Avenue Baptist Church (Montgomery, Ala.) ; Ebenezer Baptist Church (Atlanta, Ga.) ; King, Martin Luther, 1899-1984 King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 2447 Pastoring in Detroit, Michigan After you finished up at Morehouse what did you do? Porter recounts how he moved to Detroit, Michigan to pastor at First Baptist Church for four and a half years. He then returned to Birmingham to pastor at 6th Avenue Baptist Church. 6th Avenue Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; African Americans--Michigan--Detroit ; First Baptist Church (Hamtramck, Mich.) African American preaching 2698 A Knock at Midnight and The Three Horses of the Apocalypse At your installation service, Martin Luther King preached the sermon? Porter recalls how Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr, preached A Knock at Midnight at Porter's installation service. Porter then led the march on Palm Sunday with A.D. King and N.H. Smith. King, Alfred D. ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968. Speeches. Selections ; Palm Sunday ; Smith, Nelson H. ; St. Paul United Methodist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) African American churches ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama 3104 Arrest & ; Jail Tell me about that experience, just the arrest itself. Porter recounts a time where he, Nelson Smith, and A.D. King were arrested by the Birmingham Police, which resulted in an overnight stay in jail. King, Alfred Daniel (1930-1969) ; Smith, Nelson (1930-2006) Arrest--United States ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 3424 Reinvigorating the Movement During this particular time, the movement, of course, was at its height. Porter describes the challenges he faced in trying to continue the energy of the Movement after the marches. Porter attributes the success of the movement to ideal timing and the social climate. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 African American students ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 3763 The Statue of the Three Kneeling Ministers I want to go just for a minute to the incident that took place here in Birmingham. Porter shares how the statue of ministers kneeling at Kelly Ingram Park were originally intended to depict the exact likenesses of A.D. King, Nelson Smith, and himself, but the heads were replaced with generic ones. King, Alfred Daniel, 1930-1969 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Smith, Nelson, 1930-2006 ; Woods, Abraham, 1928-2008 Historic monuments 4204 Conclusion of the Interview Well, Reverend Porter, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit and talk with me today. Conclusion of the Interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history interview Oral History Rev. John T. Porter discusses working with Dr. King at Dexter Avenue and Ebenezer Baptist Churches. He was arrested with Nelson Smith, A. D. King as a result of his involvement in the Movement. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Reverend John Thomas Porter for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I' ; m Dr. Horace Huntley. We are presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is March 26, 1997. Rev. Porter, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to sit and talk with me today. I' ; d just like to ask you first of all, were your parents originally from Birmingham? PORTER: No, they were both from Russell County? Pittsview, Alabama, you probably never heard of it. HUNTLEY: Near Phoenix City? PORTER: Yes, Pittsview which was Phoenix City is now the county seat. They had another county seat during that time but is Russell County. HUNTLEY: Now were you born in Russell County or were you born here in Birmingham? PORTER: I was born in Birmingham, eight blocks from where I pastured. I didn' ; t get very far in life - eight blocks. HUNTLEY: Eight blocks, that' ; s a long journey. PORTER: Just a little round about but I ended up eight blocks away from home. HUNTLEY: That' ; s very interesting. Siblings, how many brothers and sisters? PORTER: I had one brother and one sister there were three children, and they' ; re all still living. HUNTLEY: Where do you fit in that, were you the baby? PORTER: I was the youngest, that' ; s how I prefer it. I was the youngest of the three. HUNTLEY: What neighborhood did you grow up in? PORTER: Titusville and I' ; m one of the original blue bloods of Titusville - that was the original Titusville people. Then it grew and you' ; ve got Lincoln Park and some other segments that are now Titusville but I was there among the first families so we were one of the original blue bloods of Titusville. HUNTLEY: What about the educational background of your parents? PORTER: My father if he went to school at all he didn' ; t mention it never alluded to one day in school which I' ; m not sure he ever went. I think he was a country boy and he did a lot of farming and stuff. So his educational background was nil. My mother may have gone to about the 6th or 7th grade. But we were from very proud families ambitious always striving to be better etc. So they were totally unlearned. I doubt whether my father could read. He could write his name but I think that' ; s about all. HUNTLEY: Where they grown when they came to Birmingham or did they come as children? PORTER: No, they married in Pittsview and my father came to Birmingham as a young man of about 18 or 19 years old and then he went back a year or so later and drawed his sweetheart to Birmingham after having this big front porch wedding in Pittsview. So they moved here and located near where South Town Project is now. It was Scruggs Alley. So marvelous things can come out of the alleys. So their first three room house was in Scruggs Alley and it was one of those kinds of situations where the house was spotless and yet these are the kinds of people that came of the alleys. They moved to Titusville which was sort of upscale. It was no Enon Ridge where the professionals were but at that time Titusville was really kind of moving up. So they moved from Scruggs Alley and they moved to Titusville. But incidentally, I want to just throw this in. My father was a yard man, they' ; re landscape engineers now. But he was a yard man at a private home, this was in like ' ; 29 let me give you some of the attitude of the South. He went to the employer and asked for enough money to pay down on a car. The employer who was a typical White bigot would not give him money to buy a car but he agreed to give him the down payment on a house. So in ' ; 29 this bigot went out to Titusville and bought the chauffeur a house, he bought the butler a house and he bought the yard man a house. The agreement was they would pay for the house $5 a week from their wages and my father was making maybe $15 and he wondered how can you take care of a family and pay $5 a week that would leave you but $10. My father assured him he could make it but the fellow gave my father a raise to $20. HUNTLEY: So he retained that $15? PORTER: Fifteen dollars plus a house. This was the worst kind of bigot. HUNTLEY: Did he live in Birmingham, the person that he worked for? Was it in Homewood? PORTER: On top of the mountain, he was one of the richest men in Birmingham. All of the very rich lived on top of the mountain overlooking Birmingham Now the very rich have moved further out but at that time the very rich lived on the very top of the mountain and all of these were domestics. They had five and six servants per house. You know how they have one now or maybe a part time twice a week. But everyday five servants worked in that house. HUNTLEY: What kind of person was this person involved in? Do you know that? PORTER: Alabama Power, he was president of the Alabama Power Company [inaudible] HUNTLEY: That is something. PORTER: He had that kind of relationship where he was opposed to my father having a car but was interested in a house that we were very blessed in an indirect way. I' ; ve always appreciated him even though he was a typical Southerner at that time he blessed us in a marvelous way. HUNTLEY: Prior to your father coming did he or his family own property in Pittsview? PORTER: No. HUNTLEY: Were they farmers though? PORTER: Sharecroppers and because of a leg injury or whatever caused my grandfather to limp. He could not straighten his leg, his leg was bent. So he could not farm because of that leg. So he was a keeper of cows. The owner had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of cows and my grandfather would see after these cows and twice a week he would call those cows to the house. To hear him call cows and to look and you can' ; t see a single cow anywhere, in fifteen minutes hundreds of cows . . . HUNTLEY: The calling of the cows. PORTER: Would be coming. I' ; m sure he had this kind of job because that the only one . . . he could not walk behind a plow, he was limping so. So my father' ; s beginnings were very simple. HUNTLEY: So you then visited your grandparents? PORTER: Yes, in the summer time we would stay six weeks maybe, every year in the country with our grandparents. Both my grandparents were in Pittsview. HUNTLEY: Did your mother work outside of the home? PORTER: My mother would work occasionally as the upstairs maid. HUNTLEY: In the same home? PORTER: At the same home with the [inaudible] HUNTLEY: Did she always live at home or did she at times stay there with that family? PORTER: No, she lived at home. My father would stay on the place every now and then when they would vacation. They always wanted someone and the servants would rotate turns of staying on the property at night. But my mother did work, just on occasions when Mrs. Martin wanted something very special done and she was sort of considered the upstairs maid. HUNTLEY: What was Titusville like in those early days that you were growing up? You went to Washington Elementary School. Tell me about Washington Elementary School and how that fit into that community. PORTER: It was a Black community beyond the railroad tracks. Black communities are always beyond the railroad tracks you see. Going west, you would past the street car here and ride to what is now UAB and that was called Idlewild Circle and you' ; d get off the street car at the end of the line and walk due west. Once you cross the railroad tracks you were then in the Black community. In Titusville, there were very few if any paved streets in Birmingham. They were all dirt and we would sweep like you' ; d sweep the house there was not grass because we had hogs and chickens and stuff so there was no grass and once a week we had to sweep it like we do a house. I did live to see all of the streets paved but as a child they were not paved. HUNTLEY: You know I always thought about that, what did that represent, the sweeping of the street the sweeping of the yards what did that represent in the Black family the Black community? PORTER: In the White community you would cut the grass, it looks fresh and clean and orderly. To get that same effect of orderliness and cleanliness you would sweep it and you get the same effect as if you would have just cut the grass. All the dirt is level, so it was just cleanliness and houses were cleaned inside to outside because the next day the chickens would walk out over and clunk up the dirt so you would go back and sweep it again and it gave it a very nice smooth clean look. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your days at Washington Elementary School? PORTER: They were good days. All of my growing up days were happy days. I think I' ; m a very happy adult because my childhood days were very comfortable and they were very good. My time at Washington School was a very special time. We always felt very protected. The neighborhood was protected because the adults watched out of their windows somebody was always looking so it was a very safe environment and we were very much at home at Washington School. You had teachers who were sort of like mothers, they were not cold and withdrawn they were involved with you so it was a very good time. We had many families that were not well off. There was no one well off if a coal miner made the better salaries the only problem is the labor union had strikes six months out of the year. But when they were working they were making the better salaries. Domestics never did make good salaries but they always worked so if you didn' ; t have but a little income you had some. So you' ; d find that domestic person almost as well off or better than say a railroad worker who do just a half year salary. HUNTLEY: You had railroad workers, you had coal miners, you had domestics, what other occupations do you remember growing up in your community? PORTER: There were all home owners on our street. In the neighborhood everybody was homeowners, there were some postal workers and I' ; m sure common laborers but we were fortunate in the neighborhood to have the postal workers the coal miners or the railroad people and domestics from the big homes. That was a class there. If you were a domestic at the smaller homes or the lesser rich White people then those who were in the homes of the very rich there was a very striking difference. Our church to which we both belong had Black folk from the very rich families so we was always kind of special. HUNTLEY: So that this aura of 6th Avenue is not something new? PORTER: No, we do have doctors and nurses now, back then we had no doctors or nurses but they were all at another kind of level even among the domestics it was the higher paid or domestics from the larger families that attended our church. HUNTLEY: After Washington Elementary then you went on to some other little school? PORTER: Ullman. HUNTLEY: Oh you went to Ullman? PORTER: Ullman High, yes, you see there was only one high school and that was Parker but Ullman which had been White had now become Black but it was only a two year high school. So everybody on the Southside would go to Ullman for Southside and for the last two years of high school, everybody from everywhere would come to Parker. HUNTLEY: You said Ullman had been a White school? PORTER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Had it been a White junior high school or elementary school or do you remember? PORTER: I don' ; t know, I really don' ; t know. All I know is that it was a White school. But then it became a Black two year high school. HUNTLEY: Then you went from Ullman to Parker? PORTER: Right. HUNTLEY: What was that like? PORTER: It was just not a new world but there were more people from everywhere and some you never did get to know. Thirty years later I went to the class reunion and my wife said to me look like you didn' ; t know each other I said well we don' ; t know each other now and frankly we didn' ; t know each other then it was too big. It was probably the largest high school in the world. They had 5,000 students which made it the largest Black high school in the world. HUNTLEY: That' ; s the way it had been termed. The largest Negro high school in the world. PORTER: I don' ; t know how [inaudible] But anyway I was thrown into that and somehow I became a more aggressive and assertive in high school then in elementary school I was always shy and sort of withdrawn but in high school the shyness shut down and I started getting aggressive politically and other things. HUNTLEY: What extracurricular activities were you involved in? PORTER: I wasn' ; t ever into band or football believe it or not you just knew I played football. I was always on the student council, I was leader of that kind. HUNTLEY: You were a political leader? PORTER: Political leader, until the principal called me one day in the office my senior year I believe he told me that he didn' ; t like my militant attitude. I never heard of the word militant. I had to try so hard to impress the principal who was new. HUNTLEY: Was that Johnson? PORTER: Johnson, told me he didn' ; t like my militant attitude. HUNTLEY: What was he referring to, how did you interpret what he was saying? PORTER: I was a member of the High Wire, member of the choir, and the High Wire had a thing I was involved in and that was a protest of a boycott against the teacher who was over the High Wire. I was sort of accused of leading. HUNTLEY: Was it an unfounded acquisition? PORTER: We didn' ; t think so. I don' ; t even remember what it was now but we decided that we were going to protest and boycott and I think the faculty member had gone to the principal and told him that we had pulled a strike. He come in and he was angry told me I don' ; t like your militant attitude. Ohhhh, that hurt my heart because I didn' ; t know what it was. But I entered the oratorical contest and the choir and all of this was a part of far removed from the [inaudible] of elementary school. HUNTLEY: You being a young Black male growing up in Birmingham, Alabama. Being rather aggressive at the time and you seemingly had some vision of where you wanted to go. How did this period of living in Birmingham impact upon your life as the way that you would view you future and view your world? PORTER: As I indicated earlier my childhood was a happy childhood in that we were provided for and was never in dire need, never had a surplus either. My father always told me how to approach White people, never with my hat on always say yes sir and this is how things are. So with a kind of acceptance I was not fighting against it at any point because I wasn' ; t angry about it. I thought it was just par for the course. As I grew older I felt more and more unfairness. I was sensitive to the segregation of the buses, the thing that really brought it to focus and when I started working my senior year in high school, everybody on the job was Mr. and Mrs. even the young kids but I was always John to everybody. Nobody explained to me why but I just knew this was not right and what I would do in my junior and senior year in high school I developed my on private protest against these inequities that nobody knew about. Like I made up my mind that I would never say yes sir to a White man. One would come in and say John have you seen that book that was on my desk. I would say, well let me see I think I saw it over . . . always avoiding saying yes sir. HUNTLEY: This was conscious? PORTER: Yes, oh I knew that it was wrong for everybody even the folk my age to Mr. and Mrs. and I was person A. So I decided what I would do is that I would never say yes sir to nobody. Interestingly I found out many years later that the man who was my boss knew exactly what I was doing and didn' ; t fire me. I could always love him because he didn' ; t fire me but I made a conscious effort never to say yes sir to a White man. My second thing, now all of this was in my junior and senior year in high school, I was nominated for something . . . I' ; m going to lose my thought . . . oh yes, in Birmingham I decided in my own mind and never told my dad or anybody that I would never allow a White man to out walk me on the streets of Birmingham. I would stand at the red light and as soon as the light would turn green I would step like I was going a hundred miles an hour. I never allowed any White person to walk faster than me. This is my private protest that I would never utter to anybody but to [inaudible] HUNTLEY: I' ; m reading this book now that I' ; m gonna let you read once I finish it and it talks about those kinds of protests, unorganized protests, but nevertheless very, very real. PORTER: Yes, I' ; m sure every White man I' ; ve walked past knew what I was doing because you just knew that. No matter how fast you were walking you never walked ahead of a White man. It was just deep within my soul without ever saying it to anybody that I would never allow them to out walk me. HUNTLEY: You being the younger of the children, what kind of relationship did you have with your brothers and sister? PORTER: A good relationship as childhood relationships go. But my brother didn' ; t go to college and my sister didn' ; t go to college and once I got to college it sort of set me over in another league. Now we have a good rapport now and everything but from the time I went to college I sort of began to live in another world. HUNTLEY: How do you mean? PORTER: My interests were not their interests, their interests were not my interests. It just sort of gave us . . . HUNTLEY: Would you say that you were growing away from them? PORTER: Separated only out of interest. Still a closeness that we were the kind of family, it was a small family [inaudible] we were still family. I never sensed for a moment that my brother was envious of me. The reason why I know that is, my brother was a heavy drinker in those days and I would come home on weekends and he would want me to go to the club with him. Well I didn' ; t want to go to clubs that was his thing but I would go. He would always introduce me, hey I want you to meet my college brother. HUNTLEY: He was proud? PORTER: Even though he was intoxicated he expressed pride which I say must have been genuine and real because he did it for so long he wanted to present me to everybody and always did it by letting them know this is my college brother. HUNTLEY: How much older was he? PORTER: Two or three years at the most, we' ; re pretty much the same age. HUNTLEY: What was your transition like then from high school to college? You went off to Alabama State is that correct? PORTER: Yes. HUNTLEY: What was that transition like? PORTER: When I first graduated my father was quite poor and I couldn' ; t go to college, so I graduated in January we had two classes graduating every year. We' ; d have about eight to ten classes and you either graduated in May or in December so I didn' ; t graduate. I did graduate in January on time I was the youngest in the class but in May I couldn' ; t go off because there was summer school and all of that and I couldn' ; t go next year because I hadn' ; t planned to go that early. So I got a job working and the thing that really turned me around got me going first of all I had chosen friends here that were all college bound kids from families more affluent than mine. So when I woke up and saw them going to college I really, you know, I think that by being with the right people who were college bound [inaudible] because it was my peers the very people I was running with. I looked up and they were on their way to college so I just grabbed my stuff and started running too. So I was inspired more by my peers than I was by faculty members who really didn' ; t say much to me about college. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide on Alabama State? PORTER: It was cheap. I wanted to go to Talladega. But people who went to Talladega were the daughters and sons of doctors and lawyers. So I ended up going to Alabama State because it was cheaper. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your experience at Alabama State. You mentioned earlier that you arrived in high school at Parker that you had become more assertive so by the time you get to college now you did not go the first year. PORTER: Right. HUNTLEY: So now you have a little more maturity so what was that experience like? PORTER: I think being more mature made me be ready to be more of a leader because deep down in spite of my shyness and withdrawnness I wanted to be a leader you know and I prayed to be a leader and the Lord did in fact my junior year make me president of the junior class which was just great. Then my senior year and I was always president. I was president of this and president of that, I was always president but the height of my ambition was the be president of Alpha. When my senior year came up I was elected president of Alpha. Interestingly I took office about three months into the term I became ill and the doctor said I had tuberculosis or cancer and I was the biggest man on campus. I thought the doctors didn' ; t know what he was saying I told him I was going home for a week or three days for tests and I' ; d be back and don' ; t make any announcements until I return. Well I went to Birmingham and came to the doctor and they confirmed that I had .. . they told me I had TB or scuffala, I think they said. They said tuberculosis of the lymphatic glands. Now I may be wrong because I never seen that doctor since. But anyway I was out about two years. But being there my senior year caused me to be mature. And when I was out a year and then came back I was even more of a leader I was more of a counselor, you know, guys come and sit in my room with me. HUNTLEY: They probably had heard of you then? PORTER: Yes, yes, and I' ; m pretty sure that they had heard about me but it was rare to have a young person preaching. He done lost his mind, had a nervous breakdown or something. HUNTLEY: When was it that you went into the ministry? PORTER: My senior year. HUNTLEY: Senior year? PORTER: After the Lord knocked me down and laid me out, I had a real talk with him. I prayed, we' ; d talked before. I had a real in-depth conversation with him and that' ; s when I made certain promises to him. HUNTLEY: When you returned then for your senior year, you then had an experience to meet an individual that would have an impact upon the entire country and the world. PORTER: Yes, my senior year I was a ministerial student. Only one on campus. Most people hadn' ; t heard of somebody my age talking about preaching. When I returned and started my senior year, then I was asked my, a faculty member, if I had heard of Martin King. I told him no I hadn' ; t. He said Martin King is the new pastor of Dexter Avenue Church and [inaudible] So on his recommendation a couple of weeks later I went down with some friends to hear Dr. King speak. When the service was over I think it was the next week on campus the professor introduced me to Martin King as a young preacher. Martin King says you know I don' ; t have anybody at Dexter working with me, why don' ; t you come down to Dexter and work with me. I' ; d heard him speak and I had never heard anybody speak like that before and his image of a preacher was just so perfectly, he didn' ; t dress too flashy it was just perfect. So I knew it was my opportunity to go so he invited me and I went down there. For a year, I sat next to Martin King during his first year as pastor of the Dexter Avenue Church. I think his greatest preaching took place during that period. That he was never really [inaudible] he never had any time to write or rewrite or such. But as a pastor he was always in the pulpit only on very rare occasions did he miss. But I got opportunities to get to know him and to work with him and see him at what I consider at his best. HUNTLEY: Were you very close friends, or did you become very close friends as a result of that year? PORTER: I' ; ll not say close friends I don' ; t like the words close friends because he was a person who you could say was your friend but there was no buddy relationship you see. Sometimes you say close friends and think you were buddies or something like that to me he was never that. I never called him Martin. It was probably three years difference in our ages but from day one I always called him Dr. King. If I look like I' ; m tiring I' ; m really not it' ; s just my diabetes working on me. HUNTLEY: We' ; ll just do this tape and will cut it off and if later on you need to get back. PORTER: How much time you got? HUNTLEY: We still have another . . . this is a 90 minute tape so we still have another 40 minutes. PORTER: Okay, could you turn it off for just a few minutes. HUNTLEY: You did have the privilege of working with Dr. King. How did that impact your relationship and impact upon? How you would eventually few the ministry? PORTER: I worked with him a year after being invited down. It was his first year out of Boston and it was just a local parish priest you know hoping to do a good job as pastor. It was my senior year at Alabama State. He was a tremendous preacher and I' ; m sure he did his best preaching during that first year. After that he went to Albany, but he was a marvelous preacher. He was a new kind of preacher. The preachers I had known prior to King were not lettered preachers they had, had no formal training. King' ; s dress, everything was different there was a new image of the preachers and I needed that badly. Just starting out in the ministry I needed a new image. So he came in my life at a special time that I needed another role model of a preacher and he was that. In watching him I just want to allude to the fact that he would write his sermons complete, they' ; d be typed up. At the time of the delivery of the sermon he would leave the folder in the chair and go to the pulpit and you could almost pick up the written sermon and read it with him. He obviously almost had a photographic mind. He never carried the manuscript to the pulpit. Now I tried that a couple of times but it didn' ; t work. I had to have a manuscript, the whole thing. He would leave the manuscript in the chair and he' ; d go up. He would go back to Boston every now and then to complete up his work on the Ph.D. During those absences he would allow me to preach in his stead etc. But I' ; m not sure if there was ever any, obviously there were, but just wide spread focus. See I was a good friend of King. He was the kind of guy who had a whole lot of friends. Lots of people knew him and he knew them, but just to say that I' ; m a friend of King. He was a serious kind of person, but he didn' ; t tell jokes and he didn' ; t laugh. He was just so serious about everything. HUNTLEY: Always serious? PORTER: Yes, you really didn' ; t get no joking and clowning out of him. He was always very serious about what he was about. Never on time, that' ; s one thing I did learn. I have to be on time. He' ; d start 30 minutes late just like he was on time. I realized later that he' ; d stay on time all of the years of his life he would have died much earlier but by . . . his technique was easy to follow. He had many other things that I picked up that I still do to this day. But then I went to Atlanta after I graduated. I worked with his father for three years and was able to see another kind of pastor to see another guy pasturing as to what you would do and what you would not do. HUNTLEY: How were they similar and how were they different? PORTER: They were very different, very different. Martin Sr. was the most unique man I ever met, not junior. It was senior who had the uniqueness that no one else. I mean his was an old fashioned dictator. He' ; s a combination of things, I won' ; t go into now. He was a combination of attitudes and spirits and dispositions, some I liked some I didn' ; t like. He was a strong father, very domineering, everybody had to be under his wing but I was able to see the pasturing. I was able to work for his father for three years, so that gave me a long time to see a pastor at work. But it was King Sr. who probably influenced me in life at another level more than King Jr. HUNTLEY: Were you working with him while you were at Morehouse? PORTER: Yes, I did all my intern work. I was the janitor of the church, I was pulpit assistant, I was sort of a little close to Martin' ; s sister and the King' ; s daughter. I worked at every capacity you could think of at Ebenezer Church. HUNTLEY: You were there for three years? PORTER: Yes. HUNTLEY: After you finished up at Morehouse what did you do? PORTER: The week before I graduated I was called to a church in Detroit, which was shocking. I was ready to go the small country church in Georgia or down home Alabama. But one week from graduation I got this telegraph that said I needed to call the First Baptist Church of Hamtramck, Michigan, which is in the heart of Detroit. I went and stayed four and half years had a marvelous and glorious time with them for four and a half years. HUNTLEY: How was that transition? You' ; re a southern man coming from Alabama and Georgia going to Detroit. I know that many of the people in Detroit were of course from Alabama and the South. What was that experience like? PORTER: I look back on it and say it was a very, very great experience. I don' ; t see how I could pastor Detroit, it' ; s awful up their now. But it was an excellent church with about 1,000 members, just the right size for a person who had never pastured a church before. It was a good ministry in that I was wondering why did you send me to Detroit, I want the South even though it didn' ; t offer me anything at all I wanted to go to Alabama and Georgia why Michigan? One day the answer came to me. I was driving down the street in Hamtramck and almost had an accident with a White lady in another car. I put on brakes and backed up and went on my way. This lady caught up with me, rolled down her window, and says get over Nigger. Then I realized that I was up there getting ready to come South. I was about to be called a Nigger in Michigan [inaudible] HUNTLEY: Some would call the [inaudible] in the Northern cities up South. PORTER: I considered it as a training time because soon there after that the call came to come back to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: What is that experience like when you have spent now four years in Detroit and then finally you get a call to come back to Birmingham to a rather prominent church? What was that like? PORTER: As a young man in the ministry I' ; d hoped one day that city' ; s pastor would invite me back to be his associate. It' ; s the church I grew up in, 6th Avenue is the church I grew up in and loved dearly. My highest hope was to be an associate minister to the pastor of the church. He became ill and died and the church, I loved it so much invited me. I don' ; t think I was really ready to come until the day I gave up coming. Sometimes sons of churches can become so obsessed with the idea of one day become the pastor of the church that it sort of disqualifies them. But I knew the church had chose to invite me as pastor or two or three other candidates that they were looking at. It was a time of social change. I remember saying to myself that if they never call me I would have still loved the church like I always loved it. I think the moment I came to the conclusion that I was going to love them anyway as my church, I was ready to come. Until then I wasn' ; t ready. I was overwhelmed and proud that the folks who I grew up with who taught me as a child would invite me back to be the head pastor. HUNTLEY: At your installation service, Martin Luther King preached the sermon? PORTER: A Knock At Midnight. By this time he was in orbit, see we had met back in ' ; 55, ' ; 54 in September of ' ; 54 and this was many years later that we finally had to go to jail together. That was the only time King was jail, found guilty. We had broken a court injunction and marched. They carried that court case all the way to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court sent it back or overturned it or something. No, what they did, they wouldn' ; t hear it which meant they accepted the ruling of the lower court. We had to serve five days. They went to get all the folks up, I was part of the injunction not to march, and we had to go to jail. That was the only time he was ever convicted. HUNTLEY: Tell me about what you remember about that Sunday that he preached at your installation service. PORTER: Well--I think of the day all the arrangements and all and everything had to be in place I was very finicky in those days. We had to persist right on time everybody had to know where they were going. I was just overwhelmed by the day, I thought I would die. It was just that exciting you know and to have him agreeing to come and he was a world wide figure almost by that time you see. It was a very, very special day. HUNTLEY: So as a result of that relationship in ' ; 63 when SCLC came to town to demonstrate you were called on by Dr. King. Can you talk about that experience? PORTER: I came just six months prior to the big break, the demonstrations broke out in six months. My respect for Dr. King was of such that I would have done anything, any assignment he would have given me I would have done it without question. But it just so happened that the assignment was to lead a march to go to jail. I don' ; t want to get mixed up. The question is concerning the period when-- HUNTLEY: When he initially called you to come to Birmingham? PORTER: His brother A. D. was very active in our communications so often the communication was not directly with him but it was sometimes through his brother who was right there with him every day and night. He indicated through his brother that he wanted me, Nelson Smith and Mr. A. D. himself, to lead the march I believe on Palm Sunday. We agreed. Nelson Smith was not a great jail goer. But because A. D. who was always a provocative person suggested we would go together and we would call ourselves the three horses of the Apocalypse. Now what that meant was nothing, we didn' ; t know what it meant. It was just a high sounding word, the three horses of the Apocalypse. We were together after church at St. Paul, I believe, St. Paul' ; s Church. Then after we prayed our little sermon or prayer then we would go out and march. My church had always gotten out before other churches so I was there a long time waiting for my colleagues to show up. I was getting a bit nervous that A. D. and Nelson wouldn' ; t show up and I would be out there by myself. Finally they did show up and they began to sing the songs and people praying and some people were shouting and I believe I heard my mother out there crying. You can' ; t even convey the spirituality of those moments. They were very emotional moments it' ; s all you could do to just see the people. We didn' ; t have the loss of life or anything. But anyway out of a large crowd of maybe 1,200 people we were able to get about 40 people to volunteer to go. We all went up on the sidewalk and lined up because all of the marchers were on the sidewalk. You' ; d think that maybe they were in the middle of the street blocking traffic. No every march that was ever taken was done from the sidewalk. But once we got lined up on the sidewalk to walk I looked through the crowd and there was my daddy. I said oh Lord. Then my daddy started toward me. I said not now, not now daddy, not now. He took over and he said leave this thing alone and he was afraid I' ; d get hurt so he was telling me to leave it alone, leave this thing alone, segregation. So here in my big moment, here my daddy comes. He got as close as he could to me reached through the crowd and shook hands with me after that I could have walked all the way to Montgomery that time. HUNTLEY: Just when you needed it? PORTER: He shook hands with me when he went back. Before long we were in jail. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that experience just the arrest itself. How did that take place? PORTER: It was an agreed upon thing. In other words they knew what route you would take and all times they would designate where they would pick you up. They were smart I remember at one of the later marches that out of thousand people you could only get 40 to volunteer to march. Out of the people left in the church of a 1,000, you had 900 people or more left the church. But once we came out to line up to march and marched on, then all 900 would come and follow us. In other words, they considered us not involved but just friends. HUNTLEY: When the three of you were approached . . . PORTER: Okay, we got to the police and as we approached the police they got a bull horn and he says this march can go no further, either disband or you' ; re under arrest. It was a choice to walk away or be arrested. At that point I remember A. D. saying, pray Porter. We dropped to our knees. After he said you' ; re under arrest more or less we didn' ; t kneel then but that' ; s when A. D. said to me pray Porter. I started praying on camera. Once the prayer was over then we stood up and the police would escort us to the paddy wagon. HUNTLEY: Was it A. D. or was it Reverend Smith that said pray Porter? PORTER: A. D., A. D. was always the instigator. He had everybody doing whatever he thought they ought to be doing. So they paraded us, the never let you walk by yourself they would always catch you by the arm and pull you but there was not protruding on the floor and having the police drag you we would not allow that. King had us to understand that we were breaking the law and when the man said you' ; re under arrest, you must go peacefully and quietly to the paddy wagon. HUNTLEY: In the paddy wagon that you were placed in were there other people other than the three of you? PORTER: There may have been one or two others than you it was very small and tight back there so they couldn' ; t fit in but so many in the paddy wagon. On our way to jail we were being thrown from one side of the paddy wagon to the other. The guy was very upset who was driving and we were singing " ; We Shall Overcome." ; The more we would sing the more upset he would become. The more were able to see that he was upset the more we would sing. By the time they got to the city hall to the jail house he was going to open the door . . . I remember he opened the door and there was this big chorus, " ; We Shall Overcome." ; He pulled his billy club and said, y' ; all better cut out that singing or else. In order to come out of the paddy wagon you kind of got to dip your head and come out. Nelson stood back thinking about that for a while because in the back A. D. was saying sing, sing. But the driver was saying, stop singing and A. D. was saying sing. Nelson Smith, knowing his head would come out of the paddy wagon first, he told A. D. you better stop that G. D. saying because my head will come out first. A. D. was always in the background telling, sing, sing. He was the instigator. He made things happen. HUNTLEY: How long were you in jail? PORTER: We were in jail maybe, I was in jail longer than A. D. A. D. and Nelson started right away to get their deacons to come and get them out. My feeling was in that we led the folks into the jail we ought to stay in jail with them. But A. D. and Nelson Smith said they could be more effective outside. So it wasn' ; t long before deacons were there to take them out. They were there but about six or seven hours and I was the only one left and was able to stay with the people and at some point I did get out. HUNTLEY: Did you stay overnight? PORTER: Yes, yes, yes. HUNTLEY: During this particular time the movement of course was at it' ; s height. There were some difficulties after about a month of marching that . . . it lost some of it' ; s steam and there seemingly was the need to discuss how to reinvigorate the movement. PORTER: Well, it' ; s hard to keep excitement going and the people who had gone to jail were there once and some twice and you needed more people who would go to jail. There was some I remember very vividly a guy saying to me Reverend I can' ; t march today I got to work today. So thank God for that at least he was ready to go to his job on the day assigned, you know the feud they had to go. This guy said to him he couldn' ; t go because he had to work. We were running out of people to go back again so we went out to Miles College to get college kids but I gather that Miles might have been having a corporate fund drive which sending students out would thoroughly jeopardize them. So we couldn' ; t get anyone from Miles. I think on their way back, having their hands empty of Miles students, somebody came up with the bright idea, let' ; s go by the high school. I have to admit there was not any long range planning that we now a month from now we' ; d be . . . I know that the miracle of the movement was that there was no grand plan it just happened the time was right and it happened. HUNTLEY: So the children then were brought in and this sort of reinvigorates? PORTER: Oh that really set it off but I remember greatly the first part of that but I don' ; t know [inaudible] King came in and said the press is leaving, let' ; s get something going. That was the first time that I realized that God was not leading the group. I thought up to this point we were depending on God. But I found out it was the newspapers too. God and the newspapers. He told us to get something going the press was leaving. So I got to understand that you do need that. HUNTLEY: Some have said that Bull Conner played a very prominant role and the movement owes him as much credit as any other single individual for the success of the movement because of his tactics. How do you feel about that? PORTER: I like that but I don' ; t think they owe Bull Conner anything. No, I think that the time was right. I don' ; t think anybody made it happen. I think that if the climate in the South was of such that the South was totally opposed to it, it would have never happen. The time was right. You needed a man, King, you needed a Fred Shuttlesworth, you needed a Bull Conner. They constituted that the time was right. HUNTLEY: In September of ' ; 63 of course we had the bombing of Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. Of course, that was sort of the sister church of 6th Avenue. How did that impact upon your congregation? PORTER: It was Sunday morning when the bomb went off and we just started our services and they came in and told me that Sixteenth Street had been bombed. My first reaction was that we would be next. We' ; d done more to provoke this than Sixteenth Street. I was expecting them to throw a bomb, I didn' ; t think a bomb would be placed. All I thought about was somebody driving by throwing a bomb. So I said to them that any moment it could happen and that we kind of brought everything to closure the songs, the prayers and asked people to be dismissed as quickly as possible and for everybody to leave the church. Then I went on to the emergency room from the church that' ; s where I saw Chris McNair in the emergency room, they had carried his daughter there. HUNTLEY: I want to go just for minute to the incident that took place here in Birmingham. The three of you, A. D. King, Nelson Smith and yourself, of course history records that you led the march on Palm Sunday. There is a monument in the park that was erected supposedly as a result of that but those, the statues, does not depict the three of you. PORTER: The picture was found in the archives it was among the pictures and when they were planning the park it was the mayor I assume who wanted that picture, the picture of myself and A. D., to be put in granite or in stone. The picture was sent off to the sculptors to do it. Pictures of A. D. were sent to him, pictures of Nelson Smith and myself were sent to Washington to the sculptor. I was in Washington at that same time and went and sat in his studio for the statue and the statue was complete. It was really a marvel the whole body and everything they do it complete. They start off about that size and when they finish it its in the complete form of the statues so I sat for it. About six weeks later or just prior to the time when the statue was to be delivered I got a box, a big box in the mail. I opened the box and my head from the statue was in the box. HUNTLEY: Did you have any prior warning? PORTER: No. No inkling whatsoever. I was kind of proud of the fact, can you imagine yourself in stone. HUNTLEY: What did you think when you saw this? Did you think that this was just a duplicate and they were sending it to you? PORTER: I really didn' ; t know until I read the letter. See there was a note in there. Immediately I opened the note and the note said to me that he regretted very much but he had been ordered to cut the heads off the statues and put generic heads on. He could have just thrown it away but since I had sat for it and we' ; d talked and he had gotten to know me a little bit. He said I' ; ve been instructed to cut these heads off. HUNTLEY: Did he tell you who the instructions came from? PORTER: No, he didn' ; t but I knew that to have that done it had to have come from the very top. So I knew it had to be Fred or the mayor who would give that kind of instructions and I figured the mayor. No sure enough about one week before the statue was to arrive the mayor called me and asked me if he could come out and see me. Well I knew exactly what he really wanted was to tell me. So I told him no. Let me come down to your office, he was much more busy than I am so let me come down to your office. So I went down and he said to me that Abraham Woods and Fred Shuttlesworth had threatened him that if he did not cut the heads off the statues that they would both resign from the museum and boycott the building that was his threat. I didn' ; t hear . . . this is the mayor. I haven' ; t repeated that in front of too many people but the mayor said to me, that' ; s why he ordered the heads to me removed and that he was threatened by those two and in order to please them I suppose he agreed to cut the heads off. HUNTLEY: What was the rationale? What was their rationale for? PORTER: The rationale was that it shouldn' ; t be one person, it was a group of ministers and that was just symbolic, etc. I always wondered about that when I see Shuttlesworth' ; s huge statue out front. With him that was alright but with us rather than have any heads that folks could recognize they just put anybody' ; s head on there. So when the mayor told me I said well mayor you don' ; t ever have to worry about me because I was flattered to think of the idea of having been sculptured so I appreciate that and you' ; ll never hear from me again on it. That is how finally . . . and the rational was that it was not just us it was many who were symbolic. HUNTLEY: Would you accept that as being valid? PORTER: I guess there was some validity. I would not like to question motives. It seemed to me to be rather extreme considering one' ; s love for this institution and love for all the things that it is all about that you would for such a minor thing leave the institution and boycott. Not just leave the institution but to boycott. HUNTLEY: Would you look at that act as being rather historical and political? PORTER: I think it was political. I was more puzzled my the fact that the mayor was pushed into this dilemma when he had made it clear he was not afraid of the FBI, he was not afraid of the IRS, and yet somehow he was saying I' ; m scared of Abraham. I don' ; t know of anybody else who' ; s scared of Abraham. But I really accepted it on its face value because I still support the mayor and he' ; s my man and all that kind of stuff. He said they threatened him. But the threat to cut the heads off the statue. HUNTLEY: Well Rev. Porter I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit and talk with me today. You' ; ve been very frank. PORTER: Well like I said to the camera my diabetes are out of control. HUNTLEY: But you did a very good job. PORTER: But I' ; m glad for the tape and hope that these words can make future generations understand the times. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JTPorter1997.xml JTPorter1997.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rev. John T. Porter
Description
An account of the resource
Rev. John T. Porter discusses working with Dr. King at Dexter Avenue and Ebenezer Baptist Churches. He was arrested with Nelson Smith, A. D. King as a result of his involvement in the Movement.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
19970326P
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Dexter Avenue Baptist Church (Montgomery, Ala.)
Ebenezer Baptist Church (Atlanta, Ga.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1997-03-26
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/646f718fbc327011146b29049e3987ac.jpg
74eb2ddf6d77368d654514eb2ffd4724
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Horace Huntley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
John Rutland
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JRutland1995.xml
Interview Keyword
This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are
included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
United Methodist Church (U.S.)
Connor, Theophilus E. "Bull"
Lindberg
Ku Klux Klan (1915- )
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 July 21, 1995 Rev. John Rutland 19950721R 0:37:23 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Emily Reynolds Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham United Methodist Church (U.S.) Connor, Theophilus E. " ; Bull" ; Lindberg Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) John Rutland Horace Huntley Video 1:|9(2)|21(9)|35(14)|49(11)|67(11)|87(15)|102(17)|122(3)|139(8)|159(13)|172(3)|199(4)|217(10)|239(12)|255(7)|266(11)|280(6)|292(6)|310(14)|327(10)|342(6)|368(14)|386(6)|403(4)|415(5)|432(10)|447(14)|473(16)|487(7)|505(7)|523(5)|523(6)|527(15)|542(5)|558(13)|568(14)|579(3) 0 https://youtu.be/034rd-Vh8NQ YouTube video English 25 Interview Begins: Community Response to Civil Rights Movement Activism Rev. Rutland, you described the time leading up to some of the racial confrontation in the City of Birmingham as a lonely time prior to that. A time when you had to say things that were on your conscious. Why did you call it a lonely time? Rev. Rutland describes why he felt he had to take an active role during the Civil Rights Movement. African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.) African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Pentecostal churches--United States--Clergy--Biography ; Race relations--Religious aspects--Christianity 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 164 Church Response to Civil Rights Activism Why were you not told to be quiet or else leave the church? Rev. Rutland describes Methodist leadership's response to his activism, and his congregation's response to his social justice work. Hughes, L. Robert ; Race relations--Religious aspects--Christianity African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) 350 Threats of Violence and Police Protection How did you respond to that? Was your life ever threatened? Rev. Rutland discusses threats against his family (due to his vocal support of the Civil Rights Movement), and shares a story about a time when the Birmingham Police offered protection. Birmingham (Ala.). Department of Public Safety ; Connor, Theophilus E. " ; Bull" ; ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Lindberg, Robert Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Race relations in the United States 504 Freedom Rides: Mother's Day 1961 Let's look a little bit at what happened in 1961, because that turned the tide. By this time Lindberg is out. Bull Conner is in. He is coming to your church every Sunday and where was he that famous Mother's Day when all of the busses... Rev. Rutland describes the Freedom Ride busses that arrived at his church on Mother's Day 1961, and his subsequent interaction with Bull Connor. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Connor, Theophilus E. " ; Bull" ; ; Cross Burnings ; Methodist Church (U.S.). North Alabama Conference ; Race relations--Religious aspects--Christianity ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) ; United States--Race relations--Political aspects African Americans--Civil rights ; Freedom Rides, 1961 759 Reflections on Bull Connor and Alabama Politics I have to admit, I was surprised. I didn't think Mr. Connor would, and I doubt if he meant for it to turn out as bad as it did. I think it's just like letting a snowball start down a hill and just picking up people who were involved, just getting worse than he thought they would. Rev. Rutland reflects on politics and race in Alabama during the 1960s and afterward. Republican Party (Ala.) ; White supremacy movements--United States Connor, Theophilus E. " ; Bull" ; ; United States--Race relations--Political aspects 985 Civil Rights, the Church, and Birmingham So what do you see happened? There came a time of almost peace in Birmingham if you could say that. Rev. Rutland discusses the interconnectedness of race, politics and the church. Alabama Council on Human Relations ; Hughes, L. Robert ; Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 Race relations--Religious aspects--Christianity ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) 1232 Family History, Upbringing, and Education Let's go back again to your upbringing if we can, pastor. Rev. Rutland describes growing up in segregated Haleyville, Alabama. Birmingham-Southern College ; Education--Southern States ; Families--United States--History--20th century ; Haleyville (Ala.) African Americans--Segregation ; African Americans--Southern States ; Methodist Church--United States--Clergy--Biography 1317 Early Preaching and Activism in the Church What about when you got your first church? Where was your first church? Rev. Rutland discusses his early days as a minister, when he first began speaking and preaching against racial injustice. African Americans--Employment--Law and legislation ; African Americans--Segregation ; Labor unions--United States--History--20th century ; United Mine Workers of America African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) 1534 Living with Threats of Violence Did you ever fear for your life, for your wife's life, enough to keep you from taking a stand? Rev. Rutland describes the threats of violence that he and his family received as a result of his work supporting desegregation. Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Threats of violence ; White Citizens councils ; White nationalism Civil rights movements--United States 1651 Deciding to Leave the Woodlawn Methodist Church But, (indecipherable name) says in the book -- and the name is something that escapes me now -- that they ran you out of the Woodlawn church, which you're saying is not true. Let's correct it for the record. Rev. Rutland discusses his decision to leave the Woodlawn Church. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; African Americans--Segregation ; White Citizens councils Race relations--Religious aspects--Christianity ; Southern States--Religion ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) 1998 Reflections on Christian Churches and Race Relations So do you think that the Methodist Church or Christian churches are coming around in any way? Rev. Rutland reflects on the impact of Christian religious organizations on racial justice. American Baptist Churches in the U.S.A. ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) Race relations--Religious aspects ; Southern States--Religion 2078 Reflections on Life's Work Looking back on this, I don't look at myself as being anything courageous or more wise or better than other people who were not doing anything. Rev. Rutland reflects on his work and shares a concluding story. African Americans--Civil rights ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) Birmingham (Ala.) 2216 Interview Conclusion Thank you for letting me do this. The interview is concluded. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Oral History Rev. John Rutland discusses participating in the movement as Bull Conner's minister, including taking in the Freedom Riders at his church. He and his family faced fierce opposition and threats of violence as a result. HANSON: Rev. Rutland, you, described the time leading up to some of the racial confrontation in the City of Birmingham as a lonely time prior to that. A time when you had to say things that was on your conscious. Why did you call it a lonely time? RUTLAND: Well, of course, when people realized that I was taking the stand that I was taking, even my Bishop and the other leaders of the conference who were afraid, I don' ; t know if you were living in those days, but it was a very difficult thing to stand up for anything that would bring Black and White together, because of the politics and the social ideas of the people in Birmingham were so much opposed to that. And, anyone who would stand and say we need to bring Blacks and Whites together on an equal basis, were in trouble. So, when I would do things and the Bishop would call me in and say, " ; You don' ; t need to do those things, you need to calm down, you' ; re making your people angry." ; Of course, instead of having a bunch of friends around me then, I had people who, at best, were distant and did not give me their comfort. Of course, I had a good wife that stayed with me and comforted me. And, there were always a few, a few lay people and very few ministers. HANSON: Why do you think you were able to do that? I mean what was it that compelled you to do this when other ministers didn' ; t? RUTLAND: My mother. I was brought up to believe that people were people. And, that all people were God' ; s children. And, that every person was just as worthy as every other person. And, when I saw, during my early ministry in places in Pickens County and even in Walker County in some of my smaller churches, when I saw how people were treating Black people and yet, calling themselves, and in every other area of their lives they probably were fine Christian people, well it just kind of stirred something within me and I felt that somebody had to say something and I felt like I was that one to say it. HANSON: Why were you not told to be quiet or else leave the church? Robert Hughes, for example, was. I mean, had to leave the church. RUTLAND: Well, of course, that' ; s a matter of opinion whether Bob had to leave or not. You can face these things and say it' ; s just too tough and I' ; m going to leave, the Bishop saying you got to do this and you got to do that and you don' ; t want to do it, so you leave. I didn' ; t want to leave. And when the Bishop called me in and asked me to be quiet and he said, " ; You don' ; t need to be saying these things." ; One of the funniest things I ever remember is that Bishop Hodge called me in one time and he had some bulletins that I had printed where I had said some pretty straight forward, truthful things about race relations. And, he looked at those bulletins and he said, " ; John, for Goodness sake, say what you want to from the pulpit, ' ; cause you can deny that or say they misunderstood it. But quit putting these things in your bulletin because they' ; re there and you can' ; t change them after they' ; re there." ; And then he said, " ; Why do you do this anyhow?" ; And I said, " ; That isn' ; t the question, Bishop. The question is, why don' ; t you do this? This is what our church says, this is what the New Testament says and we need a leader who' ; ll say that, Bishop. You' ; re the one who needs to be saying what I' ; m saying." ; HANSON: And his response was? RUTLAND: Well, he said, " ; You one day, this makes a Methodist preacher feel real good." ; He says, " ; You know John, you would like to leave Woodlawn, which I don' ; t know where he got that idea. But, you would like to leave Woodlawn and the people would like for you to leave, but where on earth could I find a church that would take you." ; No , that makes you feel good. HANSON: One of the most quoted things by everybody that you said one day was in, I believe in a sermon, when you said, " ; If Jesus were to come back today, he would not be welcomed in the Christian church, he would be more welcomed as a Jew in the temple." ; Elaborate on that. RUTLAND: Well, I just said, you know, preaching in a sermon, I used the fact that if Jesus were to come, he would not come in a big Cadillac. He would not come in a big sports car. He' ; d probably come on a donkey. And if he tried to get in this church, you wouldn' ; t let him in. Especially you wouldn' ; t let him in if you pushed back his beard and saw that the skin under it was Black. And, I said, the Jewish church would receive him but we wouldn' ; t receive him. HANSON: What was the response of the congregation? RUTLAND: Oh, it was terrible. HANSON: What did they do? RUTLAND: Well, they didn' ; t do much except call me. You know, I answered my phones so many times, this was while I was at Woodlawn, that people called me a son of a bitch. I heard that so much until I really thought my name was son of a bitch. HANSON: How did you respond to that? Was your life ever threatened? RUTLAND: Oh, yes. But I never took it seriously. When they burned the cross, they promised to come back and bomb my house and all that kind of stuff. Do you want a story about that? HANSON: I do, indeed. RUTLAND: You know, Bob Lindberg was also a member of our church. HANSON: The police chief at that time? RUTLAND: Yes. And Mr. Conner would be elected one time and Mr. Lindberg, the next. Both of them were in our church. Well, we got so many threats one day, until we just thought this might be for real. They' ; re going to bomb our house tonight. We put the children in the back room and Mary and I went out and sat on the front porch. And, really, behind the hedges kind of. And, we sang How Firm a Foundation. We sang to each other and we prayed and we waited. And, in a few minutes, a car came by. We lived on a corner, and it came by and went slowly around that corner. And looking back on it, if we had had any judgment, we would have known, that if the people in that car was going to do anything to us, that they would have done it. They wouldn' ; t have driven around two or three times. But on about the third time they came around real slowly. Mary said she had to go in the house for a moment and she went and called Bob Lindberg. It must have been one or two o' ; clock in the morning. One o' ; clock anyhow. And, she talked to him and said, " ; Mr. Lindberg, we' ; re scared. There' ; s a car going around." ; And he said, " ; ls it a,..." ; and described the car and Mary said, " ; Yes, I think that' ; s right." ; He said, " ; Well, does it have a ' ; 54 tag on it?" ; She said, " ; Yes, I think it does as a matter of fact." ; That' ; s Pickens County and that' ; s where we served one time. He said, " ; Well, you go to bed and forget it, he said, that' ; s my man." ; He said, " ; I have people guarding your house 24 hours a day, didn' ; t you know that?" ; HANSON: Did you have the same kind of protection when Bull Conner was police chief? RUTLAND: No. No. HANSON: Why not? RUTLAND: I don' ; t know. He just didn' ; t think I was in danger. And, that didn' ; t give me a lot of comfort, as a matter of fact it made me feel a little worse, because I said, " ; If they think it' ; s that dangerous, there must be something to it." ; I don' ; t believe anybody ever intended to bomb our house, I really don' ; t. But they told us that and you could never be sure, you know. HANSON: Because at the time the fear was so over pervasive, all around if you dare stand up at any time. Let' ; s look a little bit at what happened in 1961, because that turned the tide. By this time, Lindberg is out. Bull Conner is in. He is coming to your church every Sunday and where was he that famous Mother' ; s Day when all of the buses... RUTLAND: He called me early that morning and he said, " ; Preacher, do you know what time that these people are coming in?" ; And, I said, " ; Mr. Conner, if I knew, I wouldn' ; t tell you." ; And I was honest. I did not know what time. He thought I was connected with them, which I was not. Not before anyhow. After some of them got beat up and so forth, I tried to minister to them, but at that time, I was not in the know. I was not one of the leaders that brought them in. So, I didn' ; t know. When I said, " ; Mr. Conner I don' ; t know when they' ; re coming, but if I did, I wouldn' ; t tell you." ; But, I said, " ; Listen, I want to see you just for a few minutes some time." ; And he said, " ; All right." ; And, I went down to see him. This is on Sunday, if you remember. HANSON: You went down to the police station? RUTLAND: Yes. And I begged him. I said, " ; Mr. Conner I know what you' ; re going to do. You say you' ; re going to protect them. I know better than that. You know better than that. too." ; And I begged him, " ; Please to give protection and not what he gave." ; I didn' ; t get anywhere. HANSON: Was there not a dichotomy here between Bull Conner coming to church every Sunday and yet not listening to you, his pastor, not opening his heart in any way or shape. Was that frustration to you? RUTLAND: He didn' ; t bother me as much as it did him, I guess. My favorite story about him and my wife would certainly want me to tell this story because it' ; s her favorite story. One Sunday morning I went down and Mr. Conner and two other people were standing just like that in front of my church. And, I walked up, I said, I never call him Mr. Conner, I always called him Bull. But on this day I said, " ; Mr. Conner, what are you doing here?" ; And I' ; m going to use a word I don' ; t ever use. He said, " ; I' ; m not going to let any niggers come in my church." ; I said, " ; Oh, Mr. Conner, you got it all mixed up. This is not your church. This church belongs to the North Alabama Conference of the United Methodist Church and I am the trustee who is in charge of this church and I will decide who goes into the church, not you. That' ; s my decision. Now, I' ; m going around here and call Mel Bailey and I' ; m going to come back here in five minutes and if you' ; re still standing here, Mr. Bailey is going to come out here and I' ; ll swear out a warrant for you, Mr. Conner." ; Remember he was police commissioner. I said, " ; I' ; ll swear out a warrant for you and have you arrested for trespassing." ; So, when I turned the corner, he said, " ; Come on, fellows, that son of a bitch will do what he says." ; HANSON: But, he didn' ; t come into the church to pray? He didn' ; t come into the church to take part in the service? RUTLAND: Oh, he came to worship services all the time. Once a month or so he' ; d jump up and say I' ; m not going to listen to anything like that and walk out. HANSON: You mean he would disrupt the service? RUTLAND: Oh, yes. Well, he was just running for office, that' ; s all he was doing. Bull Conner was not vicious with the White people, at least. He was not vicious with me. He gave us a good Christmas present every year. HANSON: What did he give you? RUTLAND: Well, one time he gave me a great big box of cookies and I told Mary I was afraid to eat them. HANSON: You said you ministered to the people on the bus that came down? RUTLAND: Yes. HANSON: There were many, many Christian activists that came into Alabama on that famous Mother' ; s Day and they were brutally, brutally treated. When you say that, did that sort of act as a change in your life in any way, shape or form? RUTLAND: I doubt it because I was already under the gun so much. You know when you' ; ve had a cross burned in your yard and you get threats like we' ; d been getting, you know. Nobody every hit me. And, when you have tried to work with the people to bring about an end to the boycott that they were having and all that stuff. I had been so involved with that until I have to admit, I was surprised. I didn' ; t think Mr. Conner would, and I doubt if he meant for it to turn out as bad as it did. I think it' ; s just like letting a snowball start down a hill and just picking up people who were involved, just getting worse than he thought they would. HANSON: You really believe that? RUTLAND: Yes, I do. HANSON: Even though he took a very arrogant stand afterwards? RUTLAND: Well, you know what he was doing was running for office. And we got to remember that. And I don' ; t know how much better we are today. I think we' ; re some better. But the community today, is still very, yery determined to keep things as they are. Status quo people. And, if you' ; re going to run for an office, you got to pretend, at least, that that' ; s what you are. HANSON: And you' ; re saying it' ; s all politics? RUTLAND: I think with Bull Conner it was, yes. HANSON: And you are saying today this is true? You still see racism here we' ; re talking now in ' ; 95? RUTLAND: Sure. Sure. I think it is. That' ; s the reason, Republicans got elected. It' ; s because the Republican Party stands, whether it' ; s right or wrong, in the minds of so many people, it stands for White supremacy. HANSON: And you think that' ; s why it' ; s taken over. In other words, nothing has changed in Alabama? RUTLAND: Well, I think a lot of things have changed. I think some of the leaders in our offices in Birmingham and throughout the state, we have some people who are not like that. But I think if you' ; re going to run for office in Jefferson County, particularly, if you want to be elected, you better take a stand that we' ; re going to keep Blacks over there and Whites over here. HANSON: What can we do, do you think, in your view now as you look back to possibly change this? That' ; s a difficult question. RUTLAND: Every individual must do what every individual can do. HANSON: And not be afraid to speak up? RUTLAND: Yes. Every other week I meet with a group of Black people over across town, 10th Avenue and 30th Street. It was, we' ; ve moved down to 41st Street now. And I may just move in a home over there with people, every one of them are fine people. Oh, they were, many of them when we started this little group were very much involved with drugs and alcohol. But many of them, most of them now have come to know a better way of life. And, I do that. That' ; s about 30 people maybe that I' ; m trying to touch. But, I can' ; t touch 3,000 people and I can' ; t touch...Let' ; s go back to that time leading up to 1961 and the actions that followed thereafter. What did this do to your children growing up in an environment like that? They saw the cross being burned. Was the cross burned at your house or the church, by the way? RUTLAND: House. We were out of town. They didn' ; t see it being burned. Most people who burn crosses don' ; t do it when people are home. Well, my son is a minister of a upward Methodist church in Huntsville. And he' ; s as strong for civil rights as I am. My daughter is a teacher in Hazel Green School and a leader in the church in Hazel Green which is out from Huntsville. And, if anything she' ; s stronger than my son or me. So, evidently it didn' ; t drive them the wrong way. HANSON: So what do you see happened? There came a time of almost peace in Birmingham, if you could say that. After 1963, going up to ' ; 66, up to ' ; 69, there was kind of a movement by people speaking out, coming out saying maybe we should have better race relations. Now, you' ; re saying it has turned back. You' ; re saying the clock is turned back. RUTLAND: No. I didn' ; t say that. Because I' ; m not involved, you need to ask David Vann that question or Chuck Morgan or some of the people who are still involved in the Civil Rights Movement. I have, not because I don' ; t want to be involved, but just because of my age and because of other opportunities. Then, I' ; ve been out of Birmingham, too. But I would say, as far as I know, there are no church organizations, especially no ministers organizations that are working for better relationships. Now there may be some organizations I don' ; t know about, but the ones I know, there was a time when we had Greater Birmingham ministers meeting and we' ; d go in there and have all kinds of arguments and discuss this thing, get mad at each other and then pray, and get good humor and go home and I believe that had something to do with the way that the things in Birmingham came. But don' ; t give us preachers any credit, much for what happened. You give that to David Vann and Arthur Shores, do you remember him? HANSON: I do, indeed. RUTLAND: Arthur Shores and people of that sort who were lay people who were really trying to do something where it was hard to get something done. You see, we were always hiding behind the church. Nobody is going to come through the church and get you, you know. I know that Bob Hughes really got into difficulty because he refused to give the powers that were, he refused to· glve a copy of the names of the people who were in that organization. HANSON: The Alabama Council on Human Relations? RUTLAND: Yes. And Bob was real strong on that. And, I admire him for it when he was in jail out at Bessemer. I called our Bishop and I said, " ; You got a preacher in jail, Bishop, let' ; s go see him." ; And the Bishop said, " ; I' ; m real busy, how about you going." ; And " ; No. You call the district superintendent." ; I called the district superintendent and I said, " ; Listen, I' ; m going out to see Bob, you want to go with me?" ; " ; No, no." ; He said, " ; I' ; ve got something else to do." ; So, Frank Dawson who was our youth director and I went out to see Bob Hughes. I' ; m trying to think of the DA out there at Bessemer at that time. Sullens, I believe. Anyhow we went by to see him and he took us out there. But first, they wouldn' ; t let us see him. We went to go see him and they took us by to see him and we were instrumental I hope in getting Bob out of jail that day. But Bob Hughes was a brave man. And he stood for what he thought was right. Now, I don' ; t think that kind of thing would happen today. HANSON: (inaudible) Methodist minister or a minister being put in jail? RUTLAND: No. I can' ; t believe that. HANSON: But, you instead see a climate of racism, you' ; re saying? RUTLAND: Yes. I guess. It isn' ; t the vicious racism. I mean by that it isn' ; t the physical, we' ; re going to hit somebody on the head kind. But it' ; s kind of a subtle sort of thing. When a person comes to our church, for instance, when a Black person comes to our church, nobody gets up and says, " ; Hey you can' ; t come in here" ; , and like that. But they freeze them out. They just, I don' ; t mean just my particular church, but this is what I think is happening in all White churches in town. HANSON: Let' ; s go back again to your upbringing if we can, pastor. I think that I would like to find out. You said it was your mother primarily that did this. What about your father? You grew up in a segregated environment. RUTLAND: My father died when I was nine years old. We were in the worse segregated county, I guess, in Alabama, the free state of Winston. I was in Haleyville, Alabama. HANSON: You say that was more segregated than other places? RUTLAND: Well, we just didn' ; t have any Black people there at all. HANSON: So you didn' ; t have to worry about it? RUTLAND: That' ; s right. We had about two Black families and I was friends with both of them because my mother taught me that when somebody is being put down, you get on their side, and that' ; s the way I was taught. HANSON: So, you went to school where, to college? RUTLAND: I went to Birmingham Southern. HANSON: But you must have stood alone there when you were out there. RUTLAND: There were no Black people in Birmingham Southern. HANSON: There were no Black people but you certainly had to have opinions about race relations in Birmingham. Did you speak out as a student? RUTLAND: Well, I can' ; t remember if we were doing a lot of speaking out on that or not. I' ; m sure that if there came a time that somebody needed to say something about it, I would have, because I was at that time just as strong for the integration of races as I am today. HANSON: What about when you got your first church? Where was your first church? RUTLAND: Well, I had a little mining camp churches when I was in college. And, of course, in those days, United Mine Workers was a strong, strong organization of which I was a part. HANSON: You were a member of the United Mine Workers? RUTLAND: Oh, sure. No. I wasn' ; t a member, I was an auxiliary member. HANSON: In other words, you were a very strong union man? RUTLAND: Yes. Right. And, of course, I think the United Mine Workers did as much as anybody to bring Black and White together. Because when they got a raise for the White folk, they got a raise for the Black folk. When they got better living condition for the White folk, they got it for the Black folk. Unfortunately, I don' ; t know how this happened, either. The labor unions got big bosses, you know. Not John L. Lewis, boy, he' ; s great. And so was some other people, Walter Reuther and people like. But, beneath them, they got some leaders who were just hungry for money. And they just grabbed all the money they could get and, in my opinion, and the labor union lost in the eyes of the people, kind of lost of credence there. But, and I don' ; t think the labor unions are doing much today for race relations. They may be, but I don' ; t know. HANSON: But this was also a time with a lot of racial hate. I mean you have Crack Hanna. You have things like this happening in the steel mills, coming in, strike breaking. Where did you stand on that and did you preach against that? RUTLAND: Sure. I was... HANSON: Well, you say this very matter of factly. There were a lot of polite churches where pastors did not speak out, Rev. Rutland. RUTLAND: Well, of course I just happened not to be one of them. No. I don' ; t count myself as being a great hero that stood out here as a one man fighting against the whole world. And I never one time, I guess, thought hey, I' ; m going to go down here and say something brave. I never got in trouble in my life intentionally. I would just do what I thought was right. And, when I did that thing, I didn' ; t sit back and say this is going to get me in trouble. It' ; s just like water running down hill. When something happens, you just do what' ; s right and, then you find out, hey you' ; re in a bunch of trouble. They had a little riot out at Woodlawn High school when I was there. Well, I didn' ; t call and ask Mary what I should do. I didn' ; t even go to the altar and pray and say God, what do you want me to do. I saw those kids walking down there with great big banners across there saying " ; kill the black bastards" ; and I knew that was not right. So, what did I do? HANSON: What did you do? RUTLAND: I went out and got a hold of them. Some of them were in our church. I' ; d get a hold of him and I' ; d say, " ; Hey man, what' ; s the matter with you. You can' ; t do this." ; And almost to a person they' ; d shake their haze and act like they' ; d been in a daze or something. And, so, by the help of some wonderful police and some of our people, we got the thing broken up before it did too much damage. But, I didn' ; t sit down in my office and say now, let me see, if I do this, I' ; m going to get my head beat in. If I do this, they' ; re going to do that to me. I just said, this is what I' ; ve got to do, and I did it. HANSON: Did you ever fear for your life, for your children' ; s life, for your wife' ; s life enough to keep you from taking a stand? I mean we must remember this was a time of enormous fear. RUTLAND: Well, some people would say you' ; re a very courageous man. That isn' ; t true, I was not courageous. I was scared to death all the time. Yes, I thought the night that I told you about a moment ago, until I realized that people don' ; t walk around your house three times and, then, bomb you. They' ; re just bomb you. A guy doesn' ; t pull out a gun and say I' ; m going to shoot you. If he ever pulls out a gun and say I' ; m going to shoot you, forget it. If he' ; s going to shoot you, he' ; ll shoot you and say hey, I shot you. He' ; s not going to pull that gun and say I' ; m going to shoot you. But, anyhow, yes I was scared that night. I was really afraid. I really anticipated something bad happening. It didn' ; t happen. HANSON: But afraid for your children. Did they follow your children to school? Did they do any threats that way? RUTLAND: Yes. At least once a week somebody would call and say we' ; re going, well, they said they were going to rape my wife more than anything else. And, then, they' ; d say we know that cute little girl of yours, we know how we can get a hold of her. And that kind of thing. Well, of course, I told Bob Lindberg that and Bob said he had people following and, so, we got along all right. HANSON: Did your wife ever get afraid? Did she ever say, cut this out John. I think the time has come not to stay. Let' ; s move on. RUTLAND: Well, she never really did have the strong conviction on this that I have. She does now. But she did not have then. And, she really wanted me not to be quite so strong. HANSON: But you didn' ; t listen to her? RUTLAND: Well, I tried to persuade her. HANSON: And you think you did? RUTLAND: Yes. Well, she stood by me. HANSON: But, (inaudible) says in the book, and the name is something that escapes me now, that they ran you out of the Woodlawn church. You are saying that' ; s not true? Let' ; s correct it for the record. RUTLAND: That is not true. They did not run me out. That' ; s the only thing he said. He said some other things that were incorrect, but that' ; s the one thing that bothered me most. Because I do not want the people in Woodlawn, the people in that church to be thought of as people who run me out. Now, don' ; t misunderstand me. There were a lot of people who would have like to have run me out. And, I guess that' ; s what he meant to say. His daddy was one of them. HANSON: Wanted to run you out? RUTLAND: Yes. And, so he heard that kind of thing. But people like Mr. O' ; Toole and Claude Hughes and Dr. Farnum and a lot of others that I could mention. The Kirby' ; s, (inaudible) and that group, they stood by me, although many of them thought I was going too far. And they did not like where I was going. One time Sydney Hill, who by the way, still is living out at Trinity, and still standing for the right thing, but Sydney Hill was chairman of our administrative board and they got up and made a motion they were going to give the Methodist Layman' ; s Union some money. Well, the Methodist Layman' ; s Union was nothing but a White Citizens Council in disguise. And, so when they got through with that and they turned around to me and he said, the man presenting, he said, " ; Now you answer all these things, preacher." ; And, I said, " ; I don' ; t have to answer Mr. (I' ; ll give him another name), Mr. Young, I don' ; t have to answer that. The only thing I want to say to you, you' ; re no longer on this administrative board." ; When I knew I did not have the authority to take anybody off the administrative board, but he didn' ; t know that. And I knew he didn' ; t know that. So I just said, " ; You' ; re no longer on this board" ; , and I just left. I said, " ; You folks do what you want to with it." ; After they stayed in there about five minutes, Syd came by and said, " ; Well, we just didn' ; t even discuss it. We turned it down. And I want five minutes in the service next Sunday." ; And he got up the next Sunday and read the most beautiful statement about supporting a preacher whether you agree with him or not. And the hold church stood up and clapped. So, I had support from that church. I also had a lot of people not supporting me. But I didn' ; t leave that church because they ran me off. HANSON: Then, why did you leave the church? RUTLAND: Because I had been there nine years and we had people who would never come back to that church as long as I was there. People, some of whom, moved their membership. And, I felt like those people who didn' ; t get anything from my ministry had suffered long enough. And I thought they ought to get somebody, let them come in and let them come back. And, many of them did come back. HANSON: Did the person who follow you take as strong a stand as you? RUTLAND: Oh, no. HANSON: In other words, it was more traditional this standard. RUTLAND: No. He was way on the other side. He was a right wing person who believed in segregation and was going to keep it that way forever and that kind of thing. And I hated that so bad. But that' ; s the way the Methodist church is, you know. You send one preacher does one thing and the other does something else. HANSON: Did you ever have any bitterness against the Methodist church for not standing more behind you and other people that wanted to stand out? You' ; ve told me stories about the Bishop. RUTLAND: ...you to be one of us and everybody know you' ; re one of us. Please give it some consideration. Well my wife and my son both thought I was egotistical and terrible because I did not give him the permission to give me a degree. So, after they beat on me a while and he called back the next morning, I agreed to do it. I said all that to say this, that I didn' ; t get the degree earlier because of my stand on race relations. I got the degree later. HANSON: --So you think that the Methodist church or Christian churches are coming around in anyway. I mean the Baptist have suddenly gotten together, Black and White. RUTLAND: I want to congratulate the Baptist church, I think there doing a wonderful job, I really do. I think the Methodist church who was the leader when I was in this kind of thing, I think we were the leaders then but I think we have kind of calmed down a little bit and, I don' ; t think that we' ; ve, would say that we don' ; t want to see Blacks and Whites together. I think it' ; s just we' ; ve decided we want to do some other things and we just kind of easing up a little bit (inaudible). In those days when a few of us was really fighting for unification of Blacks and Whites, which we' ; ve done in the Methodist church, you know, we just have one conference now for Blacks and Whites. It took a terrible, terrible battle to get that done. And, so they' ; re all together in the conference. But I want to say that the fellowship is much better. I hope it is. HANSON: Thank you very much. RUTLAND: Well, thank you for letting me come and do this. And let me emphasize the fact that I don' ; t think that looking back on this thing, I want to tell you one more thing. HANSON: Sure. RUTLAND: Looking back on this, I don' ; t look at myself as being anything courageous or more wise or better than other people who were not doing anything. One night after the cross burning I went down to our church and I knelt down by the altar as I did every day I was there. And I was praying for the Black people in our community because just a few nights before I had stopped at a little place on 3rd Avenue South where they had 36 people living with one spicket (inaudible) was all the water they had and one out house for these 36 people, and that' ; s the only way these people had to use toilet facilities and I leaned over in my, it was about 1:00, I had been to the hospital. And I leaned over against my steering wheel and I just cried like a baby. And, while I was crying there somebody knocked on the window and I rolled it down and it was a policeman. And he said, " ; What are you doing here?" ; And I said, " ; I' ; m the pastor of the church in Woodlawn." ; He said, " ; Oh, I know who you are." ; And he said, " ; Don' ; t think you' ; re the only one praying for these people." ; This is a White policeman. He said, " ; I' ; m praying for them, too." ; So the next Sunday night I was down there praying for these Black people and I heard a voice, I don' ; t know if you ever hear a voice or not. But I heard a voice saying, " ; Pray for the Ku Klux Klan." ; I said, " ; Not me. You' ; re asking the wrong thing. I cannot do that." ; And the voice said, " ; If you cannot pray for the Ku Klux Klan you cannot pray for anybody." ; And, so I have prayed for the Ku Klux Klan since then as I pray for my Black brothers and sisters. Thank you for letting me do this. HANSON: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JRutland1995.xml JRutland1995.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rev. John Rutland
Description
An account of the resource
Rev. John Rutland discusses participating in the movement as Bull Conner's minister, including taking in the Freedom Riders at his church. He and his family faced fierce opposition and threats of violence as a result.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
19950721R
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1995-07-21
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/4c7b09ae1777b49c5e0f6a519bdf8bce.jpg
85ed12e5f3fc17c8a28c851ebc31a2f7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Horace Huntley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
John Cross
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JCross1997.xml
Interview Keyword
This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are
included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 July 24, 1997 Rev. John Cross Interviewed on July 24, 1997 19970724C 01:14:26 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Jess Holdnak Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 American Veterans of World War II Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee John Cross Horace Huntley Video 1:|13(7)|36(11)|57(1)|83(2)|103(4)|116(1)|126(12)|142(8)|158(2)|167(15)|195(8)|207(9)|221(14)|247(5)|263(14)|272(9)|285(13)|310(5)|323(1)|334(14)|342(9)|346(5)|363(14)|379(13)|388(2)|397(11)|404(8)|415(3)|421(10)|428(7)|439(6)|454(9)|462(4)|470(12)|489(3)|502(9)|510(6)|526(6)|546(2)|552(6)|566(4)|580(2)|587(6)|604(7)|615(9)|626(18)|639(12)|655(9)|670(2)|678(9)|685(8)|693(9)|704(9)|720(11)|732(16)|744(6)|755(6)|768(14)|782(6)|788(5)|795(11)|806(12)|820(6)|835(3)|847(5)|855(4)|864(7)|875(1)|881(12)|889(1)|902(2)|908(5)|915(9) 0 https://youtu.be/IPVl71Sjlvw YouTube video English 0 Introduction H: This is an interview with Rev. John Cross for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institutes Oral History Project. I’m Dr. Horace Huntley. We are presently at the Civil Rights Institute. Today is July 24, 1997. I want to thank you first of all for taking time out of your schedule and coming all the way from Atlanta to sit and talk to us today about the movement and about you. Introduction for interview with Rev. John Cross by Dr. Horace Huntley. Cross, John 1925-2007 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 46 Early Life H: I would just like to start by asking you some general questions about your background. Where were you from Rev. Cross? C: I was born in Haynes, Arkansas. H: How many siblings did you have? C: I had four brothers and two sisters. Rev. Cross talks about his family, and growing up. His parents worked as sharecroppers on a plantation in Arkansas. African American children--Education ; Blacks--Segregation ; Haynes (Ark.) ; Plantation life--Southern States ; Sharecropping 162 Education H: I see. What kind of town was Haynes, Arkansas as you grew up? Do you remember when you started first grade? C: Oh, yeah. I started school before I was even old enough to be in there. My oldest sisters would take me to school sometime on special occasions and I got to know the principal and several of the teachers. So, that broke me in so when I did enter I was, it wasn’t strange for me. Rev. Cross discusses his education since going to school with his sisters before he was old enough, though graduating from Lincoln High. HE mentions the assistant super intendant, Dr. Charlie Stewart. Forest City (Ark.) ; Lincoln High School (Forest City, Ark.) African American high school students ; African American school children ; African Americans--Segregation ; Blacks--Segregation ; Haynes (Ark.) ; Segregation in education 630 Joining the Army in World War II C: After high school, I was called into the army. I spent just about 2 years less, 20 days. H: What was that experience like, going from Lincoln High School to the U.S. Army? Where did you go when you left Arkansas? Rev. Cross discusses joining the U.S. Army during World War II and becoming and army Chaplin. Fort Robinson (Ark,) African American religious leaders ; African American soldiers ; American Veterans of World War II ; Armed Forces--African American troops ; Camp Kilmer (N.J.) ; United States Army in World War II ; United States. Army ; World War II 1099 France and Okinawa H: How long did you stay in France? C: I was there for about 8 to 10 months. H: After you left France, where did you go? C: I left France because of the breakdown in the organizational structure. Our organization was being deactivated and I was being assigned to another outfit. Then, shipped to the Southwest Pacific. Rev. Cross talks about serving in both France and Okinawa (Pacific Theater). He discuses what it was like as a black solider, especially in Europe. American Veterans of World War II ; Armed Forces--African American troops ; United States Army in World War II ; United States Army in World War II. European theater of operations ; United States Army in World War II. War in the Pacific ; World War II ; World War, 1939-1945--Blacks ; World War, 1939-1945--Campaigns--Japan--Okinawa Island 1841 University and Teaching H: When you then left the military, you went back to Arkansas. What did you do? You were offered a job, teaching? C: Right. H: Tell me about that experience. Rev. Cross talks about attending college at Virginia Union University, and teaching in an all white high school. He talks about his University experience as well as his experience as a black teach and the pay gap he face compared to his white colleagues. African American educators ; African American religious leaders ; African Americans--Education (Higher) ; Union Theological Seminary in Virginia ; Virginia Union University (Richmond, Va.) 2298 Pastoring in Richmond and SNCC H: Did you pastor in Richmond while you were there? C: I accepted a church in my senior year in school. It was some 60 or 70 miles from Richmond, closer to the marine base. H: You were not married at this point? C: No. Rev. Cross talks about pastoring in Richmond, Virginia while at Virginia Union. He discusses demonstrating as a part of SNCC, including local boycotts and sit-ins in Richmond. Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee African Americans--Segregation ; Richmond (Va.) ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 2813 Coming to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church Birmingham H: So, when you...then, this I’m assuming is in 1961 or so. So, when you get the call to come to Sixteenth Street, you are already familiar with, you’re sort of a veteran of, demonstrations? C: I had quite a number of hours credit in that department. Rev. Cross talks about staring his pastorship at the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. Cross was hired as a full-time pastor, but had to work a second full-time job as a cardiac assistant until church leadership agreed to provide full-time wages and benefits. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 3286 Moving to Birmingham and the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights H: So, you arrived here in Birmingham in 1962? C: Correct. H: What month did you come? C: It was May. H: May of 1962. Ok. This is just sort of preceding the....well, there are things that are sort of happening in Birmingham at the time. The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights has been very active. Rogers talks about his arrival in Birmingham in 1962 to serve at Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights (ACMHR) ; Birmingham, Ala. ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 3584 Issues with Police and Bomb Threats to the Church H: What’s your most memorable occurrences during that first year, or so, with your involvement with Sixteenth Street and the movement? C: Well, first thing I saw was that we were in a meeting one day and this is when Dr. King decided to start inviting the children in. So, the building was packed and the police, fire department and several higher representatives of the police department came and wanted to speak to me. So, I was in the study and they came in and was asking if I could dismiss the meeting, cause they were breaking fire regulations. Rev. Cross talks about issues with the Birmingham Police and Fire Departments during large meetings. He describes being asked to call off meetings and refusing to do so. He also mentions receiving bomb threats to the church. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 3789 Bombing of Sixteenth Street Baptist Church H: The day of the bombing where the four children lost their lives, did you have a threat at all? C: Not that I know about receiving. H: Were you in the building that morning? Rev. Cross talks about the day the Sixteenth Street Church was bombed. He describes finding the bodies of the four little girls. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Racism--United States ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 4308 Justice for Bombing H: Well, we’ve covered an awful lot of territory today. Is there anything else that you would like to say before we conclude? C: I’m just happy after 14 years of waiting for justice to be done, it broke through and one individual was arrested, Robert Chambliss and found guilty of being the perpetrator of that bombing. Rev. Cross talks about the conviction of the Sixteenth Street Church bomber and the fight to convict the others involved. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 4455 Conclusion H: I want again to thank you for taking time out of your schedule to come to sit and talk with me. You’ve been very, very helpful. C: Thank you for the invitation to come. H: Thankyou. Conclusion of interview. Cross, John Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Oral History Rev. John Cross discusses serving as an Army Chaplin during World War II in France and Okinowa, then pastoring in Virginia before leading Sixteenth Baptist Church in the early 1960's. He was the pastor when Sixteenth Street Church was bombed in 1963. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Rev. John Cross for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institutes Oral History Project. I' ; m Dr. Horace Huntley. We are presently at the Civil Rights Institute. Today is July 24, 1997. I want to thank you first of all for taking time out of your schedule and coming all the way from Atlanta to sit and talk to us today about the movement and about you. CROSS: You haven' ; t gotten my bill yet. (Laughing) HUNTLEY: So, that will be coming in the mail? I would just like to start by asking you some general questions about your background. Where were you from Rev. Cross? CROSS: I was born in Haynes, Arkansas. HUNTLEY: How many siblings did you have? CROSS: I had four brothers and two sisters. HUNTLEY: There were seven of you? CROSS: Seven of us. HUNTLEY: Where do you fit in? CROSS: I' ; m the baby. HUNTLEY: You' ; re the baby. Ok. Were your parents both from Haynes, Arkansas? CROSS: From the general area. HUNTLEY: What type of work did they do? CROSS: Well, my father was a riding boss, that was the title they gave him for his job. He was a supervisor for the day hands that worked for the plantation owner. Their assignments...he would have to go out and do different things on the plantation. That was not a part of the sharecroppers' ; responsibility. HUNTLEY: So, he was sort of the manager of the workers on the plantation? CROSS: Right, of the day hands. HUNTLEY: What did your mother do? What type of work did she do? CROSS: She did laundry for the plantation owner and whatever else she could find the time to do. HUNTLEY: What about their educational backgrounds? Did either of them attend formal schooling? CROSS: I think high school was about as far as either of them went. HUNTLEY: I see. What kind of town was Haynes, Arkansas as you grew up? Do you remember when you started first grade? CROSS: Oh, yeah. I started school before I was even old enough to be in there. My oldest sisters would take me to school sometime on special occasions and I got to know the principal and several of the teachers. So, that broke me in so when I did enter I was, it wasn' ; t strange for me. HUNTLEY: So, you were sort of ahead of the game? CROSS: Right. HUNTLEY: An old timer almost when you started. What was school like in Haynes? Those first days of your schooling. CROSS: It was about the same routine as it is now. Getting your assignments out and going to another. You can imagine a one room school in a church building with eight grades. The teacher had to listen to your assignments. HUNTLEY: You had one teacher teaching eight grades? CROSS: One teacher. HUNTLEY: How many students, approximately? CROSS: About 75 to 100. HUNTLEY: In one room? CROSS: In one room. HUNTLEY: That must have been an experience. CROSS: I was giving some instruction by a predecessor who had taught. He was giving it up for a better paying job, teaching in another school district. So, he had asked me...I had just gotten out of the army and he talked me into accepting. I said, " ; I hadn' ; t been to college" ; and he said, " ; we can get you an emergency certificate." ; HUNTLEY: Well, did you then...after you had gone through Haynes, you went to high school? Did you go to high school in Haynes? CROSS: No, they only had a White high school. HUNTLEY: So, where did you go to high school? CROSS: I went to high school in Forest City, 8 miles north of Haynes. HUNTLEY: What was that transition like going from a small, one room elementary school? Was your high school larger? CROSS: Oh, much larger. HUNTLEY: How did that feel? Now, it' ; s really like going to town to go to school, right? What was that like? CROSS: It was quite a change. It brought about some fears that you had to over succumb by space and room. A room for almost any needs you had. I quickly made the transition satisfactorily, making friends with the students. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any extracurricular activities? CROSS: I tried to participate in one. It was a glee club. I wanted to become a member because they would get engagements to go out and sing for some of these organizations. I just wanted to try out for that, but I didn' ; t make the tryouts. They assigned me to being a tenor and I ended up singing baritone. They would give me a baritone assignment and I would end up singing tenor. So, the director said, " ; you won' ; t keep your voice in the same assignment we give you so we can' ; t use you." ; HUNTLEY: Was that a real disappointment? CROSS: It was a very big disappointment for me, cause I had looked forward to being in that group and enjoying some of the things they enjoyed. When I was turned down, it was just like somebody had just shocked me. I soon overcame it. HUNTLEY: Yes, as we normally do with disappointments. Well, are there any individuals or teachers that you remember that stand out in your mind that had an impact upon you at that point? That time in your career you were sort of laying foundation. Is there anybody that stands out in your mind? CROSS: Yeah, several of the teachers. The principal, who had dual capacities of being principal and assistant superintendent throughout the county. I don' ; t know how he did his other job, cause I never missed him at our school. Dr. Charlie Stewart. HUNTLEY: Dr. Charlie Stewart. Now you say that he was assistant superintendent over the Black schools? CROSS: Yes. HUNTLEY: How many schools were in the area? CROSS: Well, there were several. I' ; m not sure how many. HUNTLEY: There were several, but you never missed him from the classroom? CROSS: Never missed him from Lincoln High. He was always there. He organized and grouped male students into a class called the common sense class. That was one of the things I can remember him by. He always said to us, " ; when you go seeking a job ; when you have an interview, look the interviewer directly in the eye. Don' ; t be looking up or down, but eyeball to eyeball contact." ; He said, " ; try to do that" ; and he would have us experiment with him, to talk with him and look him eyeball to eyeball. HUNTLEY: These were all males? CROSS: All males. One of the teachers said one day with the group I was talking with...it was kind of uncut. He said, " ; whoever heard of somebody organizing a common sense class? You can' ; t teach a person common sense you are born with that." ; I said, " ; Professor Stewart can." ; HUNTLEY: So, you think it was a successful venture? CROSS: Oh, yeah. It helped me in later years when I went out seeking employment, to look the person right in the eye that I was talking to. He taught us how to get dressed, to put on your best clothes...shirt tail in, not hanging out ; hair combed. HUNTLEY: Well, did all of the boys that went to Lincoln High School go through that course? CROSS: No, it was on a volunteer basis. HUNTLEY: A volunteer basis. CROSS: We had probably 25 to 30 boys who had volunteered for that. This was after class assignments. HUNTLEY: I see. CROSS: I don' ; t think there was any credit put on your record. HUNTLEY: Strictly volunteer? CROSS: Strictly volunteer. HUNTLEY: For self-improvement what did you do after high school? CROSS: After high school, I was called into the army. I spent just about 2 years less, 20 days. HUNTLEY: What was that experience like, going from Lincoln High School to the U.S. Army? Where did you go when you left Arkansas? CROSS: When I left Arkansas, I was inducted at Fort Robinson, Arkansas. I left the induction station and went to Louisiana for basic training. After being there for several months, I was shipped to Camp Kitermer, New Jersey, for an overseas assignment. I guess I was in Camp Kitermer for a week or two and we were having different training programs going on there. It surprised me when we got in Camp Kitermer, the ground was covered with snow. I said to myself, " ; this is going to give us an opportunity to stay indoors and get some good sleeping hours in," ; so I thought. HUNTLEY: Did that happen? CROSS: Oh, no. I found out you don' ; t lay up in the army barracks because of the weather. You go rain or shine, sleet or snow for whatever assignment we have for that day. HUNTLEY: Were there other friends, classmates other persons that you knew from Arkansas that were inducted the same time you were? CROSS: I had a classmate and he and I went for examination at the same time. Our class gave us a going away party and I told them, " ; you don' ; t know whether we' ; re going to pass the examination or not." ; HUNTLEY: You mean your class in high school? CROSS: In high school. I said, " ; wait until we get examined and then" ; ...but they wanted to give it before we went to the examination. Both of us failed the examination. My classmate failed cause he had a ligament cut in his left foot and I failed cause I was under weight. They said we will call you back in about 10 months. HUNTLEY: This is after you finished high school? CROSS: This is in the senior year when they called me back. HUNTLEY: They did call you in your senior year. Did you finish though? CROSS: Oh, yeah, I finished. They gave me, what you call that? HUNTLEY: A GED? CROSS: No, delayed process exemption for a few months. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see, so that you could...and after graduation you reported. CROSS: Right. HUNTLEY: Then, you went to New Jersey and you eventually went overseas, I assume. CROSS: Right. HUNTLEY: Where did you go? CROSS: We boarded ship there in New York. I forget how many days we were on that ship, but it felt like the journey would never end...and we went to the heart of France. So, when we got there, there was no trucks to meet us at the docks. So, we had to pick up our duffel bag and trucked it on by foot. HUNTLEY: And you walked. CROSS: We walked for several miles and then a truck met us at a certain point and then we got on the truck. HUNTLEY: What kind of outfit were you in? CROSS: I was in a general service engineer. HUNTLEY: What were your duties? What were you trained to do? CROSS: I was trained to be a company clerk. I never had too much field work. So, after I was in the army for several months, I introduced myself to the Chaplin and I told him, " ; I had been ordained as a minister and I would be happy to help you." ; He said well, " ; I need an assistant. Would you like to be my assistant?" ; " ; Well, I' ; ve just been assigned down at the regiment headquarters as a regimental assistant clerk." ; I said, " ; if there is any way you can get me, I would be happy to make a change." ; " ; Well, nobody turns a Chaplin down and I' ; ll come by your place tomorrow and we' ; ll see what happens from there." ; HUNTLEY: Now when were you called to the ministry? CROSS: I was called when I was 16 years old. So, this was...I went in the army and that was 1944. HUNTLEY: So, that is during the second world war. CROSS: Right. I was born in 1925 and in 1944 I was 19, when I was inducted. HUNTLEY: So, what was your experience like in France? I assume, then, when you made the request, you then became his assistant. CROSS: Well, I had to complete my basic training before I could go into his service. I was told to report to the Chaplin' ; s office that next morning, which I did. I worked for him for several months and then they started checking records and found out that I hadn' ; t completed my basic training. Then, I had to go back, leave the Chaplin' ; s office and go back on the field for basic training. HUNTLEY: In France? CROSS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Is that right? CROSS: Right. So, the Chaplin thought it was an underhand cut against him. I said, " ; no, if anything I' ; m supposed to have, I want to take it. I can come down to the chapel and do the work after hours." ; HUNTLEY: What were your duties? CROSS: Just clerical work. Typing and assisting him at different times. HUNTLEY: Was the Chaplin Black or White? CROSS: He was Black. HUNTLEY: Where was he from? CROSS: He was from a little town in South Carolina, just before you cross over in North Carolina. I forget the name of the town he was from, but he was a Shore graduate. A real nice young man. HUNTLEY: How long did you stay in France? CROSS: I was there for about 8 to 10 months. HUNTLEY: After you left France, where did you go? CROSS: I left France because of the breakdown in the organizational structure. Our organization was being deactivated and I was being assigned to another outfit. Then, shipped to the Southwest Pacific. Some left the general service engineer and became an aviation engineer. Instead of building roads and bridges, we were building airstrips. I never left... HUNTLEY: You were still in the clerical area? CROSS: I was still in the clerical area. HUNTLEY: How did you compare your experiences in France with that of the South Pacific? CROSS: Well, the experience in France was real unique. I was part of H & ; S Company, headquarters service and company. I was asked if I could get a three day pass to go...this is before I got out of Louisiana...to go from camp, to a place where our state convention was being held. My pastor told me that if I could show up there, he would have an exam for my ordination. So, when I explained this to my first sergeant, he told me to check with the captain of the company. I checked with him and told him the situation and he said, " ; have you talked with Sergeant Smith," ; who was the first sergeant. I said, " ; yeah, he told me to talk to you." ; He said, " ; are you sure it won' ; t be but three days?" ; I said, " ; it will be three, or less." ; So, he approved the pass and I left camp and went to the place in Arkansas, to meet with the convention. They catechized me for my ordination. I passed. There was one question I missed. I knew the answer they wanted me to give, but I gave the answer I felt comfortable giving, which was wrong. HUNTLEY: So, when you then arrived in France, because you had gone through this process, that, then, sort of opened another door for you? CROSS: Sure. HUNTLEY: Then, when you left France and went to the South Pacific, were you still in that same capacity? Did you work with the Chaplin? CROSS: I was still with the Chaplin. HUNTLEY: How was the South Pacific different from France? CROSS: Well, the South Pacific, where we landed, was nicknamed as " ; God Forsaken Island." ; HUNTLEY: What island was it? CROSS: Okinawa. It' ; s a big barren place. I had to go to the general hospital once when I was there, and it felt like it took me a week to get there. It' ; s such a huge island. HUNTLEY: Did you see any action in any of the fields? CROSS: I never saw any action, but I was in the action zone. So, I had one battle star, cause of location...of being near the fighting area. I never got to go near the direct action. HUNTLEY: Did you have the opportunity to meet any of the native people that lived either in the area you were in, in France, or the South Pacific? CROSS: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: What was that experience like? CROSS: Just like changing from night to day. The people on Okinawa were kind of an outgoing kind of people. Some of them would come around the mess hall and...I was on KP duty one Sunday and they were standing in line at the garbage cans, collecting whatever we threw out. Rather than throwing it in the garbage cans, I had put it in a bag and hand it to them like that. The officer of the day saw me and told me, " ; no, don' ; t do that. You will get court-martialed for that." ; He said, " ; you throw it in the garbage can. If they get it out of the garbage can, it' ; s not your responsibility, but if you hand it to them and something happens to them, they can sue us." ; I thanked him for telling me and I never had liberality again. HUNTLEY: What about the people in France? Did you find the same situation there? CROSS: The people in France revealed some things to us that...to me and a lot of the soldiers, that it' ; s kind of a dark spot on some of the characters of some of our superior officers. I met a gentleman there in a cafe once one day and he asked me if he could join me at my table. I said, " ; sure." ; I could speak very little French and he could speak very little English, but we were able to communicate. He asked me, " ; you seem to be a very intelligent young man." ; He said, " ; you' ; re altogether different from what your officers are saying about you." ; I said, " ; what are they saying about me." ; He said, " ; not you personally, but about the Black soldiers. He said ya' ; ll were ignorant, you were diseased, and you had tails and for all of our people to avoid you." ; " ; Well, so what?" ; I told that to some of the troops in our company later on. They just got excited and said, " ; oh these so and so people." ; That' ; s our biggest problem, was these officers. If they would keep their mouths shut, things would be a lot better than they are. I didn' ; t let it upset me and try to get revenge or anything. I just made sure I kept my head high and stayed out of difficult situations, so I wouldn' ; t be accused of any violations of any kind. HUNTLEY: What was the reception that Black soldiers usually received from the French people as well as people from Okinawa? Were they pleasant? Did they seem to accept what they had been hearing from the White soldiers and White officers? How did they receive you? CROSS: Well, this particular gentleman told me. He said, " ; you are just the opposite of what your White officers have been portraying. I know then why they were making those kinds of arguments, because they didn' ; t want any intermingling with Black soldiers and with the native people in our villages." ; As long as they could keep that separation line, it was better for them. I don' ; t know what makes that person take that patriotical approach, but they got to keep everything divided one side or the other. In France and Belgium, places I visited, they didn' ; t listen to any of those clichés that they heard, because I have a friend that ran a restaurant in Belgium, that' ; s where one of our companies that I was stationed in was. This person that ran the restaurant...on my off day I would spend, more or less, most of the day there. They had a daughter that was about my age and she would be keeping the store, during the hours when traffic wasn' ; t heavy. She said to me one day...I was just beginning to grow whiskers...she said, " ; you have a hair in a bump. Come on and let me pick it out." ; She came from behind the counter and got a stool and sat next to me and she said, " ; you turn around and lay your head back, so I can pick that hair out of that bump." ; So, I did. While I was laying with my head back, I heard the door slam and I raised my head in a horizontal position and saw three White soldiers leaving the door. Her response was, " ; blond soldiers no good." ; HUNTLEY: Blond soldiers no good. When you then left the military, you went back to Arkansas. What did you do? You were offered a job, teaching? CROSS: Right. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that experience. CROSS: I felt that I was unprepared to teach, but when they told me they could give me two years credit from the army experience...which would be helpful in me getting an emergency certificate...I was happy to accept the position. I didn' ; t even ask them how much it paid. It was only after a week or two of working that it was only 90 dollars a month. That' ; s a lot of work for 90 dollars. HUNTLEY: How long did you remain there? CROSS: Just for two months. July and August. HUNTLEY: What did you do after that? CROSS: I was already seeking admission to college in the fall. I thought about going to the University of Lincoln, Lincoln University in Pennsylvania and had been accepted. A friend of mine, who was a pastor...a pastor' ; s son, who had been to college, Bishop College in Dallas, Texas. He found out I was going to Lincoln and he almost...we were driving along the highway, he just stopped the car and said, " ; Lincoln? Do you know anybody in Lincoln?" ; I said, " ; no, just the name." ; He said, " ; well, that' ; s not a co-educational school. Anybody that' ; s been in the army for two years, you don' ; t need to get involved in the same sex kind of thing. You need to do a little sexual experience. Another thing about Lincoln, it' ; s isolated from the city, 30 or 40 miles from the city and you will be separated from city churches. It' ; s been my experience that when you get involved in the ministry, you need churches to give you that kind of experience." ; So, I kind of thought through what he was saying and the next day I sent off an application to Virginia Union University. I explained to them that my transcript would be sent, so they wouldn' ; t have to write for it. I had talked to the principal, asked if he could forward it to the school. So, in two week' ; s time, they had sent me a letter accepting my, saying they got the transcript accepting me as a student, but they didn' ; t have any accommodations on the campus. If I prefer to have a city dwelling, they could find me a room in the city and when I show up on campus, I would get the information on where I lived. So, that' ; s how I went to school. HUNTLEY: That' ; s in Richmond? CROSS: Richmond, Virginia. HUNTLEY: Why did you decided on Virginia Union? CROSS: Well, this friend of mine had mentioned if he was going to school again, he would choose Virginia Union University, because he had met so many inanities and it would give them a good count of themselves. It attracted him. He said if he had a chance, he would go to Union. He said, " ; this is what I recommend for you to do." ; I said, " ; well, that' ; s what I' ; ll do." ; So, I did and ended up going to Virginia Union University. HUNTLEY: What did you major in? CROSS: Sociology and a minor in history. HUNTLEY: How was that experience? You are now a man of the world. You' ; ve been in Europe. You' ; ve been in the Pacific. I' ; m assuming that most of the students were younger than you? CROSS: They were. HUNTLEY: What kind of experience was that for you? CROSS: It was a good experience, I guess, cause I have always been the kind of kid that played with all the children in the neighborhood. I have been where they were. Whatever I said, I had to mean it and see that it was carried out. When assignments were given, I expected them to be given back at the time they were requested to be delivered back. So, you can be fair without being over considerate. I really enjoyed the teaching. The superintendent asked me several times if I wanted to stay. He could get me a permanent position with the school system. He kept on asking and I knew how to get him off my back. So, I asked him, I said, " ; tell you what. You' ; ve been begging me to stay on." ; I said, " ; if I stay on, will you equal out my salary with all the other teachers in the system?" ; Where he made his mistake was to send me over to Wright High School to pick up my check one month. While I was there, the other principal was looking for it in the box with the checks in it and I was looking over his shoulder and reading everyone he picked up until he got to mine. They were all several hundred dollars, you know, and he finally got to mine and it was 90 dollars. So, I said to the superintendent, " ; you equalize my salary with the other teachers, I might give some consideration to staying." ; That was the end of the subject. HUNTLEY: You didn' ; t have anymore difficulty? CROSS: He didn' ; t ask me anymore. Whether he could do it or could try to do it. HUNTLEY: Was your salary equal to the Black teachers in the district? CROSS: Well, this was an all-White high school, so I don' ; t even know what the Blacks were making. HUNTLEY: The checks that you saw... CROSS: They were from that particular school. HUNTLEY: You were asking for equalization in Black and White salaries? CROSS: Right. HUNTLEY: So, that would end the questions. CROSS: That just cut the conversation off right there. HUNTLEY: Now, in Virginia Union, you are now living in Richmond, which is a large city. This is probably the first time that you have lived in a city this size. What was that experience like? I' ; m assuming that by you' ; re living in the city, you are an ordained minister. Did you have a relationship with churches in the area? What was that experience like being a college student, as well as.... CROSS: It was a good experience. In fact, the army experience helped to prepare me for my college days. I' ; m glad I did have that army training before I went to college, because I was a little more mature and was able to accept things more readily than if I had been much younger. I was given a lot of opportunities in college. Extracurricular activities...I joined an intercollegiate college group and the Union Theological Seminary and the girls school there at the seminar. We formed this mutual alliance to meet on a monthly basis and interact with each other, to see how well we adjusted to college life and meeting the needs. HUNTLEY: Did you pastor in Richmond while you were there? CROSS: I accepted a church in my senior year in school. It was some 60 or 70 miles from Richmond, closer to the marine base. HUNTLEY: You were not married at this point? CROSS: No. HUNTLEY: Did you meet your wife in college? CROSS: I met her in my junior year at college. HUNTLEY: And your children were born in Richmond? CROSS: In Richmond, right. HUNTLEY: What point did you come to Birmingham? How did Birmingham come into this mix? CROSS: When I was a pastor in this small church, in this residential area there in Richmond, part of Chesterfield County, I had done what I felt I could do with that. You don' ; t want to give up your ministry, so the best thing I could do was find a church that could be, more or less, acceptable to my style and leadership. So, I made all fortitudes that I could, to see what was vacant in certain cities. I met a friend that had submitted my name to one of the members of the [inaudible] committee for Sixteenth Street. They met at a convention. This person just happened to ask my friend if he knew anybody that was looking for a church. He said, " ; yeah, I know a man I can recommend to you" ; and he gave him my name. They wrote to me and they had received my name as a person who was interested in making a pastoral move and asked me if I was still interested and to send them a resume. So, I mailed them that information and gave them two dates that I could come preach. They asked for two dates, cause if one didn' ; t please them, they could choose the other. They gave me a date to come, so I went down and spoke. I delivered what I thought was the best sermon in my portfolio. HUNTLEY: You had attended Union Theological Seminary? CROSS: Virginia Union. HUNTLEY: What year were you called here then? CROSS: In 1962. HUNTLEY: Were you coming here as pastor or assistant pastor? CROSS: As pastor. HUNTLEY: Now coming from Virginia to Birmingham...now Birmingham having the reputation that it has as far as race is concerned, did you have any doubts in your mind about accepting this position? CROSS: None whatsoever, cause Richmond was just about as bad. Schools were segregated there, just like they were here. I had worked with the SNCC organization there. HUNTLEY: You had worked with SNCC in Richmond? CROSS: In Richmond. We had students that had tried to open up the downtown shopping center. They had gone to lunch counters to sit down and requests service and the waitress would refuse to wait on them. They sat there patiently. Finally, the manager told them they wouldn' ; t be served and they had to leave. They refused to leave and he suggested that if they didn' ; t leave, then he would have to call the police. They still refused to leave and the police was called and came and arrested them. So, this kind of created, kind of [inaudible] Virginia Union students being arrested downtown. Then, the organization got informed to come to their support. With the money to bail them out... HUNTLEY: Were you part of that organization at the time, or were you one of those that were demonstrating? CROSS: I was one of those that was demonstrating. I was a pastor of a church to so.. HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested? CROSS: No, I was never arrested. I never did get involved in direct action movement. Such as, if a truck was being driven, you are going to stay in the way of a truck or bus. HUNTLEY: But you did demonstrate, but the groups you demonstrated with were never arrested? CROSS: No, never arrested. HUNTLEY: So, when you...then, this I' ; m assuming is in 1961 or so. So, when you get the call to come to Sixteenth Street, you are already familiar with, you' ; re sort of a veteran of, demonstrations? CROSS: I had quite a number of hours credit in that department. HUNTLEY: What was it like in making that move from Richmond to Birmingham, to Sixteenth Baptist Church? CROSS: It was a move that was hard for me to make. I had a good church and was getting along well with them. They were not one of those do-nothing groups, they were ready to take action in whatever I recommended. So, I had left a rural church to accept this church in Richmond. HUNTLEY: How large was your church? CROSS: It had a membership of 300. That was large considering that the church I had had a membership of about 150 in the rural area. So, I was looking forward to the challenge of giving myself to full time ministry. I felt Sixteenth Street would give me that opportunity and provide a house for me and my family to live in and a reasonable salary. Those are some of the considerations. HUNTLEY: So, in Richmond you were not full time. CROSS: No. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did you do? CROSS: It was a full time pastorship, as such, but what people expect from a pastor. Services every Sunday and visiting the sick and shut-ins, attending meetings, that kind of thing. I was still full time just they had a part time pay period. I never will forget once we had a deacons meeting at that church and the chairman of the board opened up the meeting that night on me. I was the agenda that night. After the opening prayer and everything, he said, " ; well pastor we' ; ve been getting a lot of complaints that you are not visiting the sick members in our congregation." ; I said, " ; I don' ; t know where you' ; re getting your information from, but anybody that' ; s sick in this congregation, that I give priority to my sick members. I don' ; t go around making it a habit to go and visit people in their home, unless I know their husband or children will be there during the day." ; I just feel he had something...that somebody said to him that I hadn' ; t been by to visit them. So, I just happened to mention it to him. Now, we have on our bulletin each Sunday my phone number, address and a statement in there saying if anybody is sick please call the pastor or call the deacon. I said, " ; now I haven' ; t gotten a call from anybody that I happen to know is sick now, other than our regular shut-ins. If you know of anybody, who is the one that said I wasn' ; t visiting the sick." ; He never would give me that information. It' ; s a good thing he brought it up, cause it gave me a chance to bring up a lot of things to the deacons that they hadn' ; t even considered. I said to them, " ; you know I have limited time that I can give to the church, cause I work a full time job just like you do." ; So, one of the deacons said, " ; but we called you as full time pastor." ; " ; Yes, you did too, but you' ; re giving me part time pay." ; Then, he asked the question that I couldn' ; t have answered any better. He said, " ; what is a full time pastor supposed to receive?." ; I said, " ; I' ; m glad you asked that question, so I laid the book out." ; One, two, three. I said, " ; I don' ; t get this, I don' ; t get this, and I don' ; t get this." ; The chairman said, " ; well, pastor these are some things that you have to stay here and earn. You can' ; t just expect to receive those just coming in." ; I said, " ; no, these are things the church is supposed to have for the pastor as soon as he signs up to come." ; I said, " ; I don' ; t get any of this. I can' ; t live on and support my family on what ya' ; ll are paying me. So, I have to work another job." ; HUNTLEY: What job did you work? CROSS: I was a cardiac assistant. I was working with a cardiac surgeon there at the hospital in Richmond. We did open heart surgery and my job was to prepare the pump and get it ready for the operation and be on the floor around the table to see that the supply to the pump when it was requested. I also took samples that were taken and carried them to the lab for examination and then cleaned the pump up after surgery. That was my job. So, the days that we would have surgery, I would have to report to work at 5:00 that morning, cause the machine we used had to be sterilized. HUNTLEY: So, you arrived here in Birmingham in 1962? CROSS: Correct. HUNTLEY: What month did you come? CROSS: It was May. HUNTLEY: May of 1962. Ok. This is just sort of preceding the....well, there are things that are sort of happening in Birmingham at the time. The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights has been very active. CROSS: Still very active. HUNTLEY: The students of Miles College in 1962 developed a selective buying campaign in downtown Birmingham. So, you were coming into a situation that was rather active. What was your role? Did you get involved at that particular point? CROSS: Well, the church elected me in January of 1962. The night I received the call...I got a telephone call from the chairman of the pulpit committee letting me know that the church had called me as pastor. They had just had a moment of the Freedom Riders' ; bus in Anniston a day or two before that. He was saying to me, " ; don' ; t let that stop you from coming to Birmingham, because Birmingham wasn' ; t as bad as it was in Anniston." ; " ; No, that' ; s more of an indication to make me want to come more. It hasn' ; t dampened my spirits one bit." ; HUNTLEY: So, that in fact was upper most in your mind as you decided to come to Birmingham? CROSS: I came to one of the meetings the first week I was here. From that initial meeting, I was given a position on the strategy committee, that made all the plans for the.... HUNTLEY: Movement, the Alabama Christian Movement. CROSS: Of course, at that time Dr. King was, had been invited to bring SCLC in to give leadership to the local movement. So, this was a week or so after I was here that Dr. King came here with his stand. He had a cross section meeting with the leaders here in the Black community, teachers, doctors, lawyers, schoolteachers. HUNTLEY: What was your relationship with Fred Shuttlesworth? CROSS: Other than working in the movement we had no relationship. Of course, I was, didn' ; t know I was going to get involved so soon. The first night I came to the meeting they were telling me the difficulty they were having in getting places to meet and were wondering if they could meet at Sixteenth Street Baptist Church some. I just felt that every church would voluntarily give them that permission. I said, " ; sure, I would be happy to have you." ; So, they scheduled the next meeting there. HUNTLEY: What did your deacon board say when they scheduled the meeting for the Sixteenth Street? CROSS: I could have gotten in a little bit of trouble at that point, but they let me know they had a committee at the church that supervised the lending of the church out to an organization to keep down any conflict. I said well, they needed to know that night. I felt being pastor, I had the authority to give them permission to meet. That was the way we dealt with it at the time. HUNTLEY: So, you did have the authority and you took the authority to allow the movement to have meetings at Sixteenth Street. Prior to then, meetings were not held at Sixteenth Street. CROSS: That' ; s what I soon found out. I felt that there were a lot of churches that would allow them to meet there but were not large enough to accommodate the crowd. In fact, Sixteenth Street was too large for a while, until momentum built up to a peek. Then, the balcony was overflowing at times. HUNTLEY: What' ; s your most memorable occurrences during that first year, or so, with your involvement with Sixteenth Street and the movement? CROSS: Well, first thing I saw was that we were in a meeting one day and this is when Dr. King decided to start inviting the children in. So, the building was packed and the police, fire department and several higher representatives of the police department came and wanted to speak to me. So, I was in the study and they came in and was asking if I could dismiss the meeting, cause they were breaking fire regulations. That created some problems. I said, " ; what regulations? We can make sure we won' ; t break anymore regulations." ; Well now, this is not my business. I' ; m just giving them permission to meet here. I said, " ; if there are regulations that are being ignored we need to know so we can announce to stay away from certain areas." ; So, this captain pleaded with me and said, " ; you' ; re the pastor and you can call this meeting off right now." ; I said, " ; no, it' ; s not my meeting and I can' ; t call it off. Dr. King is the only one that can call this meeting off." ; I refused to do it. We got a lot of calls from the police, that they had received calls that bombs had been planted in the church and they wanted us to dismiss our group so they could search the church. This was on Sundays. HUNTLEY: Did that happen? Did they...there were bomb threats prior to the actual bombing on September 1963, where you actually had to let people...I mean vacate the building and the police come in to check the building. CROSS: That' ; s correct. We had a couple of those. On each of those occasions, nothing was found. By getting people upset like that, we didn' ; t even ask them to come back. We left out, that was it for that day. The offering had been taken and it happened just before time to preach. I don' ; t know whether it was just one of those situations to harass us and make us get a little jittery, or what it was. HUNTLEY: The day of the bombing where the four children lost their lives, did you have a threat at all? CROSS: Not that I know about receiving. HUNTLEY: Were you in the building that morning? CROSS: Yes, I was in the building. I left the study about 15 minutes before this happened. I went and sat in on the women' ; s bible study class that met on the Sixteenth Street side of the building. I sat in their class that morning. It was a wonderful lesson too, " ; a love that forgives." ; People seem to have love, but they don' ; t know how to forgive. HUNTLEY: So, you were in that class when the bomb actually went off? CROSS: Correct. HUNTLEY: Can you explain what that was like? CROSS: Well, it was an experience that I couldn' ; t believe it was a bomb at first. We' ; d been having a little difficulty with our hot water heater in the kitchen area and I thought it was the tank that had exploded down there. Then, in a few seconds, I didn' ; t smell gas fumes, I smelled powder fumes. Immediately, I recognized that the hot water heater didn' ; t blow up, it was a bomb or something that went off. I jumped up and said, " ; let' ; s clear the building right away! Let' ; s get out!" ; Then, I started to run downstairs to check on the children below, to see if they had gotten trapped in a room or anything. I criss-crossed from one side to another, going from one room to another and I didn' ; t see a single person in any of the rooms. Then, I left out going outside and when I got outside, I saw what happened. There were some people that were injured, and they were being taken to the hospital. Then, one of the civil defense workers came up to me and told me there was a big hole down on the east side of the church and wanted me to go look at it. I said, " ; let me go alone." ; I wanted to calm the crowd down, cause they were getting unruly. Some began picking up bricks and throwing them at the police. HUNTLEY: A large crowd had gathered? CROSS: Yeah, and it was making it almost impossible to do anything constructive, because of the crowd jamming in, you know...making threats against the police and if not threats, then verbally abusing them, accusing them. Saying, " ; yeah they know who did it! We' ; ll get even with them." ; I said, " ; you don' ; t know who did it." ; So, I got on the bull horn and started telling people the best thing that they could do was to vacate the premises and give the police and the persons working to clear things up room to work. I said, " ; whoever did this, they will be brought to justice." ; So, then, I went around to look at the hole in the east side of the church. All I had to do was just bend over slightly and could walk right in. One of the defense workers said to me, " ; don' ; t go in there Rev. Maybe another bomb will go off!" ; This was the standard procedure, that they would have a blast to try to draw a crowd and another blast would go off, once the crowd got there. That kept ringing in my head that, that maybe what they had expected to happen that day...that they were setting one to draw you and another one to damage you. When they told me not to go in there cause there might be...I said, " ; no, I must go in, cause if there are bodies in here, we want to find them." ; So, my bravery gave them more courage to come in. We saw this bunch of debris there and they started digging down in there and less then two feet down we saw a body. We took that one out. They brought a stretcher in and dug down a little bit more and saw another one. So, they were all on top of each other, as if they had hugged each other. I didn' ; t know any of them at the time, cause of the way that explosion had... HUNTLEY: You couldn' ; t recognize them? CROSS: They looked much older than they were and when we got to the morgue, a lot of them had to identify them by their clothes, or if they were wearing a ring or watch or something of that kind. As soon as we got those four bodies out, the first body was taken out through the crater, but the crowd was so massive down there, we realized that the others needed to be taken out on the opposite side. So, we took them out on the west side of the church building and put them in the ambulance on that side. Just as we got the last body out, we heard what appeared to be moaning and groaning back in the toilet stalls and we went back there and that was Sarah Collins. I didn' ; t recognize who she was at the time, blood was streaming down her cheeks and she did seem incoherent. She said she wasn' ; t groaning, she was calling her sister, Addie Mae. I said, " ; it sounded like you were groaning" ; and she said, " ; I wasn' ; t groaning, I was calling Addie. Where are you Addie?" ; So, we got her out and took her down to the hospital. They hospitalized her and kept her there for several weeks. They gave her an artificial eye and kept close treatment on her and she was in the hospital for several weeks. There were other people that were injured, mildly injured. Another passerby was injured. He was walking along that side of the church...wasn' ; t even coming to the church, when the blast occurred. It just broke his right arm. He was traveling south on Sixteenth Street. He was lucky that his head wasn' ; t blown off. HUNTLEY: He was right there near, where the blast took place? CROSS: I think he had passed that blast area. He was up there near the front of the church, where the bulletin board is. It was quite a day. A day that will never be forgotten by this church, or by the nation. HUNTLEY: Well, we' ; ve covered an awful lot of territory today. Is there anything else that you would like to say before we conclude? CROSS: I' ; m just happy after 14 years of waiting for justice to be done, it broke through and one individual was arrested, Robert Chambliss and found guilty of being the perpetrator of that bombing. He was only charged for the murder of one of the children. I guess that was designed so that it would get him on one and they could charge him for the others. He was giving a life in prison sentence. I was told at that time, there were others sitting in the courtroom that were even as guilty as Robert Chambliss and they would be brought to trial as soon as they could find proper evidence to convict them. Many years have gone by since 1963 and 1974 and finally there' ; s a redoing, a reopening of the case to try others. I' ; ve been called by several reporters, on what is my feeling about this, since it' ; s been so long, how could this make us feel any better. I said, " ; as long as we know that there are persons out there who are guilty of committing this atrocity, we can never sleep comfortably at night until they are brought to trial." ; I said, ' ; I am never one to try to cut off justice from being beated out." ; So, I just hope that others can be convicted of this hideous crime. HUNTLEY: I want again to thank you for taking time out of your schedule to come to sit and talk with me. You' ; ve been very, very helpful. CROSS: Thank you for the invitation to come. HUNTLEY: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JCross1997.xml JCross1997.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rev. John Cross
Description
An account of the resource
Rev. John Cross discusses serving as an Army Chaplin during World War II in France and Okinowa, then pastoring in Virginia before leading Sixteenth Baptist Church in the early 1960's. He was the pastor when Sixteenth Street Church was bombed in 1963.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
19970724C
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963
American Veterans of World War II
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1997-07-24
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/172fa648a360ea5d0a7961074020a64f.jpg
311614c0ca54cc6ea662e678496b4981
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Horace Huntley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jerry Green
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JGreen1995.xml
Interview Keyword
This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are
included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
Bombings--Alabama
Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 April 20, 1995 Rev. Jerry Green 19950420G 0:28:46 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Bloody Sunday The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People Bombings--Alabama Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Jerry Green Horace Huntley Video 1:|1(2)|28(4)|54(5)|80(3)|113(4)|134(13)|154(10)|179(5)|200(5)|229(2)|261(7)|285(13)|309(4)|331(10)|360(3)|376(12)|394(11)|424(13)|435(1)|448(3)|468(5)|482(14)|496(4)|510(7)|528(10)|542(9)|562(11)|578(15) 0 https://youtu.be/y3YgrSFLKwc YouTube video English 61 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Rev. Jerry Green for the Oral History Project of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. I am Dr. Horace Huntley, today is April 20, 1995 and we are at Miles College. Introduction of Jerry Green 33.4810, -86.9089 17 Miles College 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org BCRI Homepage 83 Family Background Let me just start by asking some general kinds of questions. Where were you born and what year? Jerry Green talks about how many siblings he had and his parents educational background. Family Birmingham (Ala.) ; Cropwell (Pell City, Ala.) ; Woodlawn (Birmingham, Ala.) 164 Early Education-Parker High School What about you, how much education did you have? Jerry Green talks about his time at Parker High School and knowing Fess Whately, who at the time was his principal. Jewish cemeteries ; Night School Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Tuxedo Junction (Musical group) ; Whatley, John T. Fess (1895-1972) 248 Work and Marriage After High School What did you do after you finished high school? Jerry Green discusses being married for a couple years until becoming a widower, as well as starting his profession as a painter. Marriage ; Painter ; Widower 324 Community Background What community did you live in? Jerry Green talks about growing up in a mixed race community in the Birmingham neighborhood of Woodlawn. White Flight Woodlawn (Birmingham, Ala.) 405 Relationship to Birmingham Police Department What was your community's relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? How did the community get along with the police department? Jerry Green describes how there were good and bad police in Birmingham. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Police brutality--United States 436 Joining the NAACP Were you a member of any community organizations before you got involved with the Alabama Christian Movement? What about the NAACP? Jerry Green describes his role with the NAACP in getting Black people registered to vote, his experience registering to vote, and joining the Alabama Christian Movement once the NAACP was banned in Alabama. African Americans--Voter Registration Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 613 Joining the Alabama Christian Movement Tell me then how, and why did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement? Jerry Green talks about joining the Alabama Christian Movement after the NAACP was banned, and attending the first meetings where they had to kick people out who were not in favor of the movement. Mass Meetings Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Alford, Robert L. ; Old Sardis Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 690 Being a Guard During the Movement What was your role in the Movement? Were you one of those men who helped to guard the houses? Jerry Green discusses his role as a guard for the Alabama Christian Movement, protecting homes and churches. Bombings--Alabama ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Guard duty ; Treasurer Bethel Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Lewis, John L. ; Shortridge, Bill ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 985 Family and Church Involvement in the Movement So that must have meant that he was here for a special reason then. Somebody was protecting him. How did your family feel about your involvement with the Movement? Jerry Green explains how he received support from his family and the mass meetings they held at his church. Family ; Mass Meetings Groveland Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 1069 Recalling the Shooting of Alberta King Can you think of any event that stands out in your mind that you participated in during the Movement? If I ask you what is the most vivid memory you have of an event that took place during the Movement, what would that be? Jerry Green recalls how Martin Luther King Jr. had a hard time working in Dalton, Georgia, and the time when Alberta King got shot in a church. Dalton (Ga.) ; King, Alberta, 1904-1974 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Williams, Hosea, 1926- ; Young, Andrew, 1932- 1163 Benefits from The Movement Jerry Green explains that one of the major benefits from the movement was getting the Black community registered to vote. African Americans-Voter Registration Birmingham (Ala) ; Civil rights movement 1243 Marching in Selma So you were a part of the Selma marches as well, then? Jerry Green discusses about going down to Selma, Alabama to march. Police brutality--United States ; Voter Registration Bloody Sunday ; Marches--Selma (Ala.) 1314 Growing Up in Birmingham During the Movement Tell me what do you remember about growing up in Birmingham that would make you happy when the Movement came alone? Jerry Green explains that the movement in Birmingham is what put Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. on the map. African Americans--Segregation Albany (Ga.) ; Civil Rights Movement--Birmingham (Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1433 Describing Fred Shuttlesworth How would you describe Fred Shuttlesworth? Jerry Green describes Fred Shuttlesworth as a Birmingham man, someone who came out with a smile even during hard times. Racial violence ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Carraway Hospital (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Hillman Hospital ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; New York ; Peck, James ; Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 1561 Recalling Emory Jackson Okay. Reverend, is there anything else that you would like to add that we hadn't talked about today? Something that you would like for people to know about, where the Movement is concerned? Jerry Green recalls how Emory Jackson was a big part of the movement by reporting on what was going on at the time they were advocating. Sex Work Birmingham News ; Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Jackson, Emory O. (1908-1975) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1645 Conclusion of Interview Well, I want to thank you for coming out and sitting with us to tell us about what happened during the Movement and how Birmingham influenced the Movement. And, it's obvious that you have a lot of information about Fred Shuttlesworth and others. I want to thank you for taking your special time out to come and talk with us about it. Interview conclusion with Jerry Green. Oral History Rev. Jerry Green discusses being a member of the NAACP and then the ACMHR after the NAACP was outlawed. He marched on Bloody Sunday and served as a guard for folks involved in the Movement. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Rev. Jerry Green for the Oral History Project of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. I am Dr. Horace Huntley, today is April 20, 1995 and we are at Miles College. Thank you Rev. Green for coming out and sitting with us today. GREEN: You' ; re welcome. HUNTLEY: Let me just start by asking some general kinds of questions. Where were you born and what year? GREEN: I was born 1910, February 18. HUNTLEY: Where? GREEN: Out in a place called Woodlawn, but the place was Groveland. HUNTLEY: Okay. So that' ; s Birmingham. GREEN: Yes Birmingham. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? GREEN: I had another brother and two sisters. I don' ; t have any now. HUNTLEY: Okay. So you are the only one that' ; s left? GREEN: Yes. I was the puniest one and I am the only one left in the immediate family. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your parents. Where were they from? GREEN: Pell City. HUNTLEY: In Pell City, Alabama which is what, about a half hour from Birmingham? GREEN: Yes. Well, it' ; s Pell City but they were born in Cropwell. That' ; s not far from there. HUNTLEY: Yes. Just outside of Pell City. It' ; s in St. Clair County, though? GREEN: Yes. That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: Okay. What kind of education did your parents have? Did they go to school at all, that you remember? GREEN: Yes, I guess just a general education. HUNTLEY: What about you, how much education did you have? GREEN: I finished high school. HUNTLEY: Okay. Did you finish at Industrial High School? GREEN: Yes. It was Industrial then. They call it Parker now, but it was Industrial then. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Industrial High School? GREEN: They had day school and night school? HUNTLEY: Is that right? Was it a big school? GREEN: Yes it was a big school. It was the biggest one in Birmingham at that time? HUNTLEY: The only one in Birmingham is that right? Well do you remember Fes Whatley? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Is that right? So you knew Fes Whatley? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Well, were you in the band? GREEN: No. But I know he played -- Tuxedo Junction. HUNTLEY: What is your most fond memory of Industrial High School? Were there fun times or tough times? GREEN: Yes. Parker, let' ; s see now, he was a little fat man. HUNTLEY: Okay. He was the principal? GREEN: Yes. They buried him up there in that Jew cemetery. HUNTLEY: What did you do after you finished high school? GREEN: What did I do? HUNTLEY: Yes, sir. GREEN: I worked for myself. HUNTLEY: Well, what did you do? GREEN: I was a painter. HUNTLEY: Oh, so you painted for yourself. Okay. So you started your own business? GREEN: Yes, I was an interior -- I worked at one place. I didn' ; t start my business. I worked for [inaudible] & ; White. And South Town at 75 apartments over there on 23rd Street South. So about the time I got through with them, it would be time to go back over them again. HUNTLEY: So that' ; s what you started to do. Then you were a professional painter. GREEN: You might say that. HUNTLEY: How long did you do that? GREEN: Around twenty years. HUNTLEY: For about twenty years. Okay. How old were you when you got married? GREEN: When I got married? HUNTLEY: Yes, sir. GREEN: I was about twenty ' ; cause my wife died a little over two years afterward. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in? GREEN: I lived in the Groveland area but it was Woodlawn and Birmingham. HUNTLEY: You' ; ve always lived in that part of town? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Oh, so you are very well known in that area then. How would you describe the community? Who lived there, the racial make-up, the occupations of people? GREEN: Well, White people began to run when Black moved in as usual. HUNTLEY: But at the time that you lived there, in the days before the Movement, were there whites that lived in your community? GREEN: A few. Some said they wasn' ; t going to move. HUNTLEY: So some stayed? GREEN: Yes. It was kind of mixed up then, so they said they weren' ; t going to move. Some of them left. HUNTLEY: What kind of occupations did people have that live there? What kind of work did they do? GREEN: Well they did different things. Different kind of jobs. Pay wasn' ; t much then. HUNTLEY: What was your community' ; s relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? How did the community get along with the police department? GREEN: Yes, well, you got along pretty good. It' ; s always one good one and one bad one. HUNTLEY: Did you ever have any problems with them yourself? GREEN: No, I did not. HUNTLEY: Were you a member of any community organizations before you got involved with the Alabama Christian Movement? What about the NAACP? GREEN: Yes. I was in it but they banned it. That' ; s when Fred organized the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. Because they couldn' ; t come in the churches. That' ; s why he organized in the church, because they banned it out of Alabama. HUNTLEY: The NAACP? GREEN: Yes they banned it. HUNTLEY: Okay. Have you been involved with the NAACP? GREEN: Yes all of us were. HUNTLEY: Okay. What did you do? What did the NAACP do at that time? Were they registering people to vote? GREEN: Registering people to vote, yes. HUNTLEY: Were you a voter at the time, yourself? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Do you remember when you went to register to vote. HUNTLEY: Yes, old big White fellows up there. He said you can' ; t vote. And there was a little White boy over there, he let him vote. He told me to come back in three days. I went back the next day. He say " ; nigger, didn' ; t I tell you not to come back down here." ; Then, Judge Barren, he was living in that same apartment. I don' ; t know what he had on that piece of paper, ' ; cause I had a sheepskin coat and I just pulled it out and handed it to him. HUNTLEY: What did you pull out and hand to him? GREEN: Envelope. I don' ; t know what was in it. HUNTLEY: Where was the envelope from? GREEN: Judge Barron. And so he said " ; Hold up your hands." ; Swear me in right then. HUNTLEY: Didn' ; t ask you any questions? GREEN: Didn' ; t ask me nothing. I don' ; t know what was in the envelope. I wanted to look in but I didn' ; t. HUNTLEY: You got the envelope from a judge? GREEN: Yes. He lived in that same apartment I told you that I worked. HUNTLEY: Oh, that you were painting. And he gave you a letter to give to the -- GREEN: I told him what happened. That evening I met him and I told him what happened. And he said come to my apartment in a few minutes. I went up there in a few minutes and I had a big sheepskin coat and he just give me an envelope. It was sealed up. HUNTLEY: So evidently the letter said that you must have been a reputable citizen? GREEN: Bet the letter said " ; Let this nigger vote, I believe." ; I don' ; t know, but anyway there, he swore me in. HUNTLEY: Were you alone that day? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Nobody went with you? GREEN: No. HUNTLEY: So you were voting after that then? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: You were a registered voter? GREEN: Yes. He said " ; You know some big people in town, don' ; t you?" ; GREEN: I said " ; I sure do." ; HUNTLEY: Tell me then how, and why did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement? GREEN: Because they banned the NAACP. HUNTLEY: Okay. And you thought it was necessary to continue it through the organization of the Alabama Christian Movement? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were you at their first meeting that Fred called? GREEN: Yes. Robert Alford was pastor of old Sardis, up on the hill. HUNTLEY: That' ; s where the first meeting was held? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me what was a meeting like? What happened at the meetings? GREEN: Well, they liked to have to throw some of them out. Some of them old fellows. They didn' ; t want it, you know. HUNTLEY: They didn' ; t want the Movement? GREEN: No. They threw out two or three of them. It was on TV. HUNTLEY: Because they were against what Fred was trying to do? GREEN: Yes. Robert Alford was pastoring old Sardis at that time. HUNTLEY: Was he in favor? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: But there were some there that simply was not in favor of the Movement getting started? GREEN: You had some, but the majority was in favor. HUNTLEY: What was your role in the Movement? Were you one of those men who helped to guard the houses? GREEN: Yes, I guarded houses. Shuttlesworth house and Phifer' ; s house, Rev. Phifer. HUNTLEY: Tell me, how did that get started, the guarding of the houses? GREEN: Well, they had to have somebody to guard them because they were talking about bombing them. And they did bomb them and knocked that window out. There were four cross seats under the window over here. So when he said " ; Johnny L. Lewis," ; when he said " ; Hit the ground." ; Everybody hit the ground and covered up their head. And that glass just shattered all around them. HUNTLEY: You mean you were at the church?, You' ; re talking about the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church, when it was bombed? GREEN: No, not Sixteenth Street -- Bethel. HUNTLEY: Oh, when Bethel was bombed? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Okay. And you were there at that time? GREEN: Yes. And we all stonewalled. We hit the ground. HUNTLEY: And that' ; s the only thing that saved you, you hit the ground? GREEN: I don' ; t know whether it saved me, but we hit the ground. And I think Johnny L. Lewis, now, I think he' ; s dead. HUNTLEY: So how was that organized, the guarding of the homes and the churches? Was that well organized or did you just go out there when you got ready? GREEN: No. It was well organized. We knew who was going to be where and what time they was going to be and how many hours they were going to be and the next one knew when to come on like that -- in shifts. HUNTLEY: How long did you do that? Once a week or -- GREEN: No. Every night. HUNTLEY: Every night? So you would get off your job and then you would go on to someplace where you would protect someone' ; s home, or the church? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Who were some of the other men that were involved with that effort? GREEN: Who was the other? HUNTLEY: Who were some of the other men that were helping you to do that? GREEN: Yes. Some women too. What that lady name? It was some women too. HUNTLEY: They helped? Women helped to guard the homes? Is that right? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Well, were you armed? GREEN: Shorty was the treasurer. No, we were not armed. HUNTLEY: You were not armed? Didn' ; t have guns? You just sat watching? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Okay. Tell me a little about Mr. Shortridge? What was his responsibility? GREEN: Shorty was the treasurer and those women used to go on with him. him own. Boy that was a time then. So much I can' ; t think all of it. HUNTLEY: Did you ever go to jail? GREEN: I didn' ; t go to jail. HUNTLEY: Didn' ; t go to jail. But did you demonstrate? Did you march in the demonstrations? GREEN: I marched in the demonstrations, but I didn' ; t never go to jail. HUNTLEY: Tell me. Can you explain what those demonstrations were like? GREEN: Yes. I tell you they were not coward folks. HUNTLEY: You were brave if you were out there? GREEN: Yes. Because see you didn' ; t have a gun, nothing, but yourself. And we worked in shifts. If I knew you were, he knew where I was. We knew how many hours we were going to work and just sit up and guard the house. HUNTLEY: What did you do while you set there and guarded the houses? GREEN: Just sat there. HUNTLEY: Did you talk about the Movement? GREEN: We just sat there. Yes, we just sat there. See, Shuttlesworth, they intended to pick him up in a shovel. They blowed up the toilet stool. Blowed up everything. And Shuttlesworth' ; s wife and children were around in the other room. It didn' ; t bother them. But the mattress went up and come down and Shuttlesworth walked out Monday. HUNTLEY: So that must have meant that he was here for a special reason then. Somebody was protecting him. How did your family feel about your involvement with the Movement? GREEN: They were for it. HUNTLEY: Were they involved? Did they go to the mass meetings? GREEN: No. They didn' ; t go. HUNTLEY: But they didn' ; t discouraged you from going? GREEN: No. They knew it wouldn' ; t do any good no way. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of? GREEN: Groveland. HUNTLEY: Groveland? GREEN: G-R-O-V-E-L-A-N-D. HUNTLEY: Were you associate pastor there? HUNTLEY: All right. Okay. Was your pastor and other members of your church involved in the Movement? GREEN: Some of them were. I used to pastor it. Some of them were, but not all of them. HUNTLEY: When you were not the pastor, was the pastor involved with the Movement? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, did they have mass meetings at your church? GREEN: They had mass meetings at all churches then because that' ; s where they was having them. HUNTLEY: Yes. So they did have them at Groveland? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you think of any event that stands out in your mind that you participated in during the Movement? If I ask you what is the most vivid memory you have of an event that took place during the Movement, what would that be? GREEN: When King come from them Negroes in Dalton, Georgia had -- they wouldn' ; t work with King. They had turned him down. It was King and Andrew Young and Hosea Williams come to Birmingham. And this came. They were walking arm in arm to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: And that' ; s what you remember most about the struggle? GREEN: Yes and Ms. King, you know, she was shot. She was playing the organ and shot and Daddy King came and he was shot. So they said don' ; t -- that boy said " ; he could have killed him, but he said Daddy wouldn' ; t want you to do that. HUNTLEY: Yes. This was when Mrs. King, Dr. King' ; s mother was shot. That' ; s what you are referring to. What would you consider to be the benefits of the Movement to your family, the community and to the nation? How did the Movement benefit all of us? GREEN: Well, it benefitted us by being there for one thing. You know they were there. HUNTLEY: So you knew that the Movement was there and you knew that the Movement was moving on? GREEN: Moving on. HUNTLEY: Yes. Would you say that the Movement was successful? GREEN: I would. HUNTLEY: How did it change things? GREEN: Well, for Negroes especially. We had more rights ' ; cause when you voted, that got you more rights. Everyone we could get to vote or register. Down in the Black belt. There weren' ; t very few Negroes voting down there in Selma and around. But we got the vote at Brown Chapel -- that church down there. We got them to register and vote. HUNTLEY: So you were a part of the Selma marches as well, then? GREEN: Yes. Selma to Montgomery. HUNTLEY: Did you actually march from Selma to Montgomery? GREEN: Yes. We come from oh, way down here. But I didn' ; t march all the way. I rode on back of the wagons. HUNTLEY: Were you there the day that the state troopers met the people on the bridge? GREEN: No. I wasn' ; t there that day. But I was there the next time. Yes. That' ; s where they met them at. They call that Bloody Sunday. That' ; s where they beating them up and everything. But those same policemen they welcomed them that next year. HUNTLEY: Yes. They had been ordered to protect the marchers at that point, right? GREEN: Yes. On account of voting. Negroes was voting. White man wanted a vote. He couldn' ; t tell a Black vote from a White vote. HUNTLEY: Tell me what do you remember about growing up in Birmingham that would make you happy when the Movement came alone? GREEN: Well, like I said, Birmingham was a segregated city. And when the Movement came along, we had more freedom on account of we voted. HUNTLEY: What was segregated? How did segregation actually operate? GREEN: Well, if you was a Negro, say for instance on the street cars. If you was a Negro, they had a rod up there. You sit over here and the white folks sit over there even if you standing up. Just like Rosa Parks. Rosa Parks was tired and she didn' ; t get up. So we got a lot of benefits out of it. HUNTLEY: So you would say that it was successful? Would you think that Birmingham as a city had a real impact upon the success of the Civil Rights Movement overall? GREEN: Yes. Birmingham is what made King. That' ; s where he got his recognition from -- from Birmingham. HUNTLEY: So they couldn' ; t do in Albany, Georgia? GREEN: No. They couldn' ; t do. Those negroes, turned their back on it. They couldn' ; t do it and he was glad to get somewhere to come. Shuttlesworth was King' ; s secretary and they brought over there -- brought him over to us and he was glad to get somewhere to come. That' ; s the reason I say, King was known nationwide, but Birmingham made King. Give him his biggest boost. HUNTLEY: How would you describe Fred Shuttlesworth? GREEN: Fred Shuttlesworth, his mother lived in Oxmoor. He' ; s a Birmingham man. But Fred Shuttlesworth it ain' ; t hardly no way to describe that man. He' ; s somebody' ; s man. He was then and is now. They -- five of them went up to a White school and they beat him with chains. HUNTLEY: At the Phillips High School? GREEN: Yes. Beat him with chains. HUNTLEY: Were you there that day? GREEN: No. And they put him in jail. We were going to sleep out there that night if they didn' ; t let him out. They put him in jail and the next morning he come out smiling. That' ; s right. That' ; s why them marks -- them marks on him now. He come out smiling. HUNTLEY: Was that the time that his wife was stabbed? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you -- you went up with him during the time he was attacked? Were you there with him at the time? GREEN: I wasn' ; t right with him. No. You know we were back. Bull Conner was supposed to send the policemen. He didn' ; t send any police. They Peck -- Peck was a rich man' ; s son. But he was down here with him from New York and they bloodied his head. We carried him over to the Carraway and they wouldn' ; t take him. So we carried him to Hillman. They said two Negroes, dressed up and Negro brought him and give him a dime and told them to call him. That would mean Montgomery. HUNTLEY: This was when James Peck came in with the Freedom Riders? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Okay. GREEN: He--Montgomery. HUNTLEY: Okay. Reverend, is there anything else that you would like to add that we hadn' ; t talked about today? Something that you would like for people to know about, where the Movement is concerned? GREEN: I think Emory Jackson was fighting for freedom, like I said, before anybody. His sister couldn' ; t get a job. You know, she had to go to Florida. She couldn' ; t get a teaching job here on account of that. And so her momma said, she was going to give them something they could take -- an education. So like I said, Jackson really was fighting before anybody. And Fred would tell him where we going to meet because we was meeting from church to church. And Jackson would put it in his paper where we going to meet at every week. What time and where we going to meet. And, then, he go up there and carried one to Bull Conner. Every Monday Bull Conner had some pimps there and we knew it. Say they wouldn' ; t have to tell him. HUNTLEY: So you tell him yourself so he wouldn' ; t have to worry about getting it from the pimps? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Well, I want to thank you for coming out and sitting with us to tell us about what happened during the Movement and how Birmingham influenced the Movement. And, it' ; s obvious that you have a lot of information about Fred Shuttlesworth and others. I want to thank you for taking your special time out to come and talk with us about it. HUNTLEY: Well, I was glad to. I don' ; t know, I was trying to think about. If I think of anything else, I will. HUNTLEY: Okay. If you think of anything else, we' ; ll be glad to come out and sit with you again. But again, I appreciate you taking the time out. And all I need to know is what' ; s your secret to staying here 85 years? GREEN: That ain' ; t no secret. Doing to others as you would have them do unto you. HUNTLEY: Okay. GREEN: Love thy neighbor as thyself. You do unto other, you ain' ; t going to do nothing bad to yourself. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. GREEN: And if you do unto others as you would want them to do, I think you' ; ll be all right. HUNTLEY: Okay. I certainly appreciate it. Thank you Rev. Green. And we will hopefully talk with you again sometime. GREEN: Yes, I hope so. HUNTLEY: Okay. Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JGreen1995.xml JGreen1995.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rev. Jerry Green
Description
An account of the resource
Rev. Jerry Green discusses being a member of the NAACP and then the ACMHR after the NAACP was outlawed. He marched on Bloody Sunday and served as a guard for folks involved in the Movement.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
19950420G
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Bloody Sunday
The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1995-04-20
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://bcriohp.org/files/original/fa4ad9f4cdce437193ec864683f3c3f0.jpg
152e2414d8eeed2189ece005ede9daa5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Horace Huntley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
George Johnson
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=GJohnson1995.xml
Interview Keyword
This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are
included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
Work Discrimination
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 April 13, 1995 Rev. George Johnson 19950413J 0:47:29 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company Birmingham Personnel Board (Birmingham, Ala.) Selective Buying Campaign Work Discrimination George Johnson Horace Huntley Video 1:|1(2)|13(11)|37(7)|50(2)|61(11)|80(5)|97(4)|112(9)|133(4)|148(8)|159(4)|188(6)|205(7)|225(14)|241(3)|250(13)|268(14)|276(16)|299(7)|310(6)|329(14)|344(14)|374(13)|389(2)|404(10)|425(8)|434(4)|450(3)|465(14)|477(5)|487(15)|497(11)|508(4)|518(11)|539(2)|553(6)|575(8)|587(3)|602(1)|612(2)|627(11)|641(6)|651(6)|665(16)|679(8)|695(6)|708(1) 0 https://youtu.be/BJOzXgwopJE YouTube video English 67 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Rev. George Johnson for the oral history project of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. Today is April 13, 1995 and we are at Miles College. Rev. Johnson, thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit with us today to try to help us to develop the real story of Birmingham. Thank you for coming. George Johnson is introduced. 33.4810, -86.9089 17 Miles College 33.5161, -86.8145 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 99 Family Background I want to start by getting a little background information. Where were you born? George Johnson talks about growing up in Birmingham with a single mother who worked as a housekeeper. African American--Family--Religious ; Housekeeper Avondale (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Union Springs (Ala.) ; Zion Spring Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 249 Early Education Tell me about your educational background. Where did you start school? George Johnson discusses the schools he attended as a child. East Birmingham Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Kingston Elementary (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Thomas School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 331 Moving North After High School What did you do after high school? George Johnson explains how he moved to the North to get away from racism but how he wasn't very different than the south, so he moved back. Racism--United States ; Work Discrimination Cleveland (Ohio) 394 Returning to Birmingham and Joining the National Youth Association So you then spent 3 or 4 months in Cleveland and then returned to Birmingham? George Johnson explains how he went to go work for the Sloss and join the National Youth Association choir when he moved back to Birmingham. African American choirs Birmingham (Ala.) ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; National Youth Association ; Sloss Furnace Company ; United States. National Youth Administration 486 Working at L& ; N Okay. And then you went from there to the L& ; N Railroad? George Johnson discusses how he was working for L& ; N until he was drafted into the United States Military. Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company ; Military Service--Drafted 537 Entering the U.S. Navy What branch of service did you go into? George Johnson discusses his time in the U.S. Navy as an apprentice seaman. Apprentice Seaman ; Military--Deaths ; Petty Officer Okinawa Island (Japan) ; Pearl Harbor (Hawaii) ; South Pacific Sea ; United States. Navy Department 680 Returning to L & ; N After Discharging from Military Okay. And then after you are discharged from the Navy what did you do? George Johnson talks about getting married and going back to work for L& ; N after discharging from the military. African Americans--Marriage ; Military--Desegregation Booker T. Washington Business College (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company 714 Registering to Vote Many of the Black servicemen who are returning were looking at changing the society through voting and other means. Did you become a registered voter upon returning to Birmingham? George Johnson talks about how important it was to get himself and his community registered to vote. African American--Voter Registration Booker T. Washington Business College (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Butler, Philander ; Gaston, A. G. (Arthur George), 1892- ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 891 Outlawing the NAACP This precedes the outlawing of the NAACP from operating in the State of Alabama in 1956. How did that impact upon you and your organization? Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; The National Association for The Advancement of Colored People 956 The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Were you one of the charter members of the Alabama Christian Movement? George Johnson talks about joining the Alabama Christian Movement meetings and facing racial discrimination in applying for a job with Birmingham. Mass Meetings ; Police patrol ; Racial Discrimination--Work Place--Birmingham (Ala.) Jones, Clyde ; Ray Mullen ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1089 Suing the Personnel Board for the City of Birmingham It stated on the application? George Johnson discusses suing the Birmingham Personnel Board for having " ; Whites only" ; on their application for policemen. " ; White Only" ; ; Lawsuits ; Policemen ; Racial Discrimination--Employment ; Sit-ins Alabama County Court (Jefferson County) ; Alabama State Court ; Birmingham Personnel Board (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Hubert Grooms ; Jones, Clyde ; Orzell Billingsley 1238 Participating in the Movement and Going to College Did you participate in any of the other demonstrations such as riding the buses? George Johnson expresses being part of the movement, and how it might have affected his termination at L& ; N, leading him to go into ministry. Bomb threats ; Civil Rights Movement--Marches--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Family Support ; Religion Estonian Baptist Seminary (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company ; University of Alabama at Birmingham (Ala.) 1429 Church's Involvement in The Movement What church were you initially called to? George Johnson talks about pastoring for the Greater New Bethel Baptist Church and their support during the movement. Church Bombing ; Civil Rights Movement--Birmingham (Ala.) Greater New Bethel Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 1535 Important Events During The Movement If I ask you to select maybe the three most important events during the period that we are discussing from 1956 to 1963 when the demonstrations took place, what would those events be? George Johnson cites the 3 most important events for him during the Movement. Lawsuit ; Racial Discrimination--Employment Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham Personnel Board (Birmingham, Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1670 Recalling the Freedom Riders and New Progressive Baptist State Convention George Johnson discusses taking his church choir down to Mobile, Alabama for a convention and being mistaken as the Freedom Riders. African Americans--Segregation ; Church Choir ; Community backlash Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Grove Hill (Ala. : Town) ; New Progressive Baptist State Convention--Mobile (Ala.) 1826 Recalling the Selective Buying Campaign In '62 the Miles College students and the Alabama Christian Movement came together and developed the Selective Buying Campaign downtown, where they boycotted stores. What do you remember about that period? George Johnson recalls how effective the Selective Buying Campaign was for hiring Black people at Birmingham stores. African Americans--Segregation ; Businesses--Birmingham (Ala.) Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Miles College ; Selective Buying Campaign 1921 Working for the Social Security Administration I didn't apply -- I was too old to be a police patrolman so I applied for a job with the federal government and I passed the test and I was called by Social Security. George Johnson discusses how he had trouble becoming a supervisor due to discrimination. Racial Discrimination--Employment ; Racially Biased Testing Birmingham (Ala.) ; Social security--United States 2093 Benefits of The Movement What benefits did you, your family and community realize as a result of the Movement? George Johnson talks about wanting to be recognized along with others through the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.)--Board of Directors ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Woods, Abraham Jr., 1928-2008 2218 Changes to The Movement This is what we are about and I appreciate you doing this. If you were in control of the Movement and could go back and change some things, what would you change? George Johnson explains how he would keep going full speed ahead and that he had no regrets about what the movement did. Civil Rights Movement--Birmingham (Ala.) ; United States Navy 2289 Major Accomplishments of Movement What is your assessment of the Birmingham movement? How successful was it? What were the major accomplishments and were there any failure? George Johnson assess the Movement as a whole. African Americans--Segregation ; Southern Baptist Assembly ; White Flight 2488 Present Day Effects of Movement and Civil Rights Institute Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with in relationship to the Movement? George Johnson talks about the Civil Rights Institutes involvement in preserving Black history. Blacks--America--History ; Religion Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement--Birmingham (Ala.) 2676 Fighting For an African American Studies Class Let me ask you this question. What effect has it had? I know at one time you and some of the others at UAB fought to have a school set up for this. What happened? George Johnson asks if there was ever a proposal to have a department of African American Studies at UAB. Churches ; Community Department of African American Studies ; University of Alabama at Birmingham 2755 Donating Items to The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute I appreciate you asking that because there are not many people that are asking those kinds of questions. Lastly, do you have any items related to the Movement or to the development of Birmingham that you would like to donate to the Institute? George Johnson talks about having a few items to donate to the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Letters ; News Clippings Birmingham Personnel Board (Birmingham, Ala.) 2820 Conclusion of Interview And again, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule and you coming and sitting with us to help us really develop this story. Because the only way you get the true story is from the people who were involved and you of course were one of those. Thank you again. Interview concludes. Oral History Rev. George Johnson discusses combating employment discrimination in Birmingham, including by suing the Personnel Board. He continued to participate in the Movement through his church. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Rev. George Johnson for the oral history project of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. Today is April 13, 1995 and we are at Miles College. Rev. Johnson, thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit with us today to try to help us to develop the real story of Birmingham. Thank you for coming. JOHNSON: Glad to be here. HUNTLEY: I want to start by getting a little background information. Where were you born? JOHNSON: I was born in Birmingham, Alabama in the East Birmingham community. And I have lived in that community most of my life until 1984 and I moved to Avondale as pastor of the Zion Spring Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: What part of the state were your parents from? JOHNSON: My parents were from Union Springs, Alabama at least my mother was. I don' ; t know anything about my father. But my mother was from Union Springs and my brothers and sisters were from Union Spring. I' ; m the only exception being born in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Okay. How many brothers and sisters did you have? JOHNSON: I had eight brothers and sisters. HUNTLEY: How many older and how many younger? JOHNSON: They all were older, because I' ; m the youngest of the nine. HUNTLEY: Oh, you' ; re the baby? JOHNSON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your mother. JOHNSON: My mother was a Christian woman and she reared us in the admonition and the fear of God and she did all of her children like that and there was only one exception to all of us coming to Christ and that was my oldest brother. He never did confess Christ, but all the others, those who are dead and those who still survive are Christians. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your mother do? JOHNSON: My mother, here in Birmingham, she was more or less, not necessarily a maid, but she collected clothes from different White families and she washed them and ironed them and then we would return them. We would pick them up on Monday and then take them back on Thursday before school and so forth. HUNTLEY: So you were intimately involved in that process? JOHNSON: My brother and I were involved in the process of picking up and delivering. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your educational background. Where did you start school? JOHNSON: I started school at the East Birmingham Elementary School. That was the initial school. And from there -- in the 3rd grade I went to Kingston School and that school went from 3rd through the 5th. When I reached grade 6, I went to Thomas School and of course, I stayed at Thomas School until I finished. And in 1937 in January I graduated and went to Parker High and at that time it was so crowded we had to go to school at 11:30 and in 1938 they opened up Ullman High School and we transferred from Parker to Ullman. Ullman was a one year school at that time. HUNTLEY: That was to the 10th grade? JOHNSON: That was in the -- Ullman went from the 9th and 10th grade and later on they made it a full four year high school. But I stayed at Ullman one half term and went back to Parker in the 10th grade and that' ; s where I completed my education at Parker. HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school? JOHNSON: After high school I went north for a few months. HUNTLEY: Where did you go? JOHNSON: I went to Cleveland, Ohio. I wanted to leave the south. I had brothers and sisters in Cleveland and they were telling me to come and I went and I was disenchanted with what I encountered there. I was under the impression that I would not encounter the same kind of thing that I encountered here in the South, but upon applying for a job in Cleveland, the first job I applied for they told me they didn' ; t hire Blacks. And that put a bad taste in my mouth. And, of course, I got a job and worked 3 or 4 months and -- but I was headed back South and my brother told me you are a fool to go back. And I said " ; I' ; m going back and I' ; m going to work and stay in the South until we get things right there." ; And so, that' ; s where I am. HUNTLEY: So you then spent 3 or 4 months in Cleveland and then returned to Birmingham? JOHNSON: Return to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: What did you do upon returning? JOHNSON: Upon returning in ' ; 41, I started working for the NAACP out at Sloss field. It was more or less a school. Most of the graduates from Parker went -- those who were in the choir, and I was in the choir at Parker and they had a choir at Sloss field and so Mr. Henry told those of us who wanted to go out there and they would give us a job. And so I went out to Sloss field and I worked there until I was hired at the L& ; N Railroad. HUNTLEY: What did you do at Sloss? JOHNSON: I cooked. I was in the cafeteria. I was a cook at Sloss field. And I participated with the choir and we traveled and so forth. HUNTLEY: What was the group that you -- JOHNSON: It was the NYA choir. I don' ; t mean the NAACP. I mean the NYA Choir National Youth Association. HUNTLEY: Right. In fact that was a national organization. How long did you stay there? JOHNSON: Oh, approximately 9 or 10 months. HUNTLEY: Okay. And then you went from there to the L& ; N Railroad? JOHNSON: Yes. HUNTLEY: And what did you do at the L& ; N Railroad? JOHNSON: At the L& ; N I went in as a common laborer and of course, we did cleaning and so forth in various places there in the shop and other related duties. HUNTLEY: And how long did you stay with L& ; N? JOHNSON: I started there in July and in -- in July 1942 and I worked there until I was called into service in May of 1943. And upon returning in ' ; 46 I went back to the L& ; N. HUNTLEY: What branch of service did you go into? JOHNSON: United States Navy. HUNTLEY: The Navy? What was your job in the Navy? JOHNSON: I went in as an apprentice seaman and when I was discharged after having spent about two years in the South Pacific, my main duty was ship' ; s cook and I went in as an apprentice seaman and came out a Second Class Petty Officer. HUNTLEY: Did you see any action while you were in the Navy? JOHNSON: Not necessarily action. I was on a ship but the ship was transferring us from the United States to naval supply depot and that' ; s where I spent about 19 months at naval supply depot and then I came to Pearl Harbor and spent about three months there. And I came back to the States discharged at that time. HUNTLEY: Were there any events that you remember while you were in the service that sort of stick out in your memory? JOHNSON: One event. I was on the list to go to Okinawa and at that time I had a special duty of cooking for officers. I was not a steward. I was in the seaman branch. But they would take cooks from the seaman branch and they would cook for officers and at that time I was doing that. And when the chief -- my chief saw my name on the list to go to Okinawa for invasion, he said " ; I' ; m not going to let you go. I' ; m going to get your name off the list," ; and he did. Of course, the others went and then in a few months many of those persons -- those who were not killed returned back to the base -- to the naval hospital there on that base wounded and so forth. So that stood out in my mind because maybe I would have been one of the victims had I gone to Okinawa for the invasion. HUNTLEY: So you spent two years in the Navy? JOHNSON: I spent 31 months in the Navy. HUNTLEY: Okay. Nearly three years then? JOHNSON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Okay. And then after you are discharged from the Navy what did you do? JOHNSON: I went back to L& ; N. HUNTLEY: Went back to L& ; N? JOHNSON: Yes and I started work there and then I enrolled in Booker T. Washington Business College. HUNTLEY: Okay. Were you married at the time? JOHNSON: I married in ' ; 47 and I was discharged in ' ; 46 and I started in Booker T. Washington in ' ; 48. HUNTLEY: Okay. Now by this time of course, the military is about to be desegregated. JOHNSON: Right. HUNTLEY: Many of the Black servicemen who are returning were looking at changing the society through voting and other means. Did you become a registered voter upon returning to Birmingham? JOHNSON: Yes. Upon returning I became a registered voter in 1948 after I started to Booker T. Washington Business College. HUNTLEY: What prompted you at that time to become registered to vote? JOHNSON: Well, one of my instructors was a lawyer that taught me business law and he impressed upon us to go and register to vote and he also told us how we probably could do it without a lot of fanfare. And so he told us to use psychology on the registrars. I applied that type of psychology and it worked so I was not given a real hard time when I applied. HUNTLEY: Did you pass the very first time? JOHNSON: I passed the very first time. HUNTLEY: Who was your instructor that encouraged you? JOHNSON: Philander Butler. He was an attorney with Dr. Gaston' ; s business firm and he also taught business law. He taught me business law. HUNTLEY: Okay. Were you at that time, a member of the NAACP? JOHNSON: Yes I was. HUNTLEY: Did you assist in any ... JOHNSON: Now I was a member of the NAACP at that time in 1948, yes. HUNTLEY: Did you assist in helping other people to register to vote as well? JOHNSON: Yes. After I was passed and everything then I was president of our civil league in East Birmingham and we proceeded then to get as many persons as we could to register and vote. In fact we set up a lot of voter registration drives and what have you. There were several persons in the community who were instrumental in helping me as president to register the people and we were very well pleased with the outcome and those who responded to registering and voting. Of course we did other things in the community, but that' ; s one thing we are proud of. HUNTLEY: So voter registration was really a priority of the community at that time? JOHNSON: Right. HUNTLEY: Was that a priority around the city or was it basically of your community? JOHNSON: Around the city I would say, but specifically in East Birmingham. East Birmingham was sort of a special community. The families were closely related. HUNTLEY: This precedes the outlawing of the NAACP from operating in the State of Alabama in 1956. How did that impact upon you and your organization? JOHNSON: I believe -- you said ' ; 56. I was under the impression that it was ' ; 55 that the NAACP was outlawed and upon the outlawing of the NAACP the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized to carry on the work of the NAACP and Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth was elected president. And knowing the plight of Blacks as related to job- the job situation, after we had been organized and we were meeting over the city ; from community to community ; from church to church... HUNTLEY: Were you one of the charter members of the Alabama Christian Movement? JOHNSON: I was not a charter member. I was not in the organization but I came on board after that after the Movement was organized. HUNTLEY: So you did attend the Movement' ; s mass meetings? JOHNSON: Yes I did. HUNTLEY: Did you attend on a regular basis? JOHNSON: Yes. On a regular basis. HUNTLEY: How would you describe the typical mass meeting? JOHNSON: The typical mass meeting was inspirational. There was a lot of enthusiasm. The people were concerned about what they were doing and I was also concerned. And we were determined to make things happen in spite of the cost. And so when Dr. Shuttlesworth mentioned that we were going to test the system for jobs and go to the personnel board and apply for jobs, the first job mentioned was the job of police patrolman. And he threw it out to the house and I volunteered to go and there was another young man by the name of Clyde Jones, of course he fell out of the picture a little bit later on after we got things moving. So we applied. I applied rather. I was the litigant there and upon reaching the personnel board, Ray Mullen was the director of the personnel board. And I walked up and told him I wanted to apply for police patrolman. He looked at me and said " ; You don' ; t qualify." ; I mean just by looking at me. And I asked the question then " ; Why is it I don' ; t qualify?" ; So he showed me the application and it said " ; White Only." ; HUNTLEY: It stated on the application? JOHNSON: On the application " ; White Only." ; HUNTLEY: What did you do at that point? JOHNSON: At that time I returned -- we returned and so forth. I then sent a letter to him asking him to reconsider that and of course he did not. And we proceeded then to file a suit against the personnel board, City of Birmingham, and the State of Alabama. HUNTLEY: Were you the only litigant? JOHNSON: At that time. There were two at first and then after Clyde Jones then I became the only litigant there. HUNTLEY: How did that then proceed through the courts? JOHNSON: Well we started in the Jefferson County Court. We went from there to the State of Alabama and of course, each court refused to consider it. And finally it reached federal court and Judge Hubert Grooms heard the case and attorney Orzell Billingsley was my lawyer and after pleading the case, Judge Grooms ruled that the words " ; White Only" ; would have to come off of the applications and that all of the jobs in the city, the county and the state would be open to Blacks. HUNTLEY: Then did you proceed to attempt to get one of these jobs? JOHNSON: At that time I had passed -- for Birmingham I had passed the minimum age limit and I could not even file an application in Birmingham at that time because I had passed that age. I think it was 32 and at that time I was 33. HUNTLEY: But your case was instrumental in getting the " ; White only" ; removed from the application? JOHNSON: Yes. And others were able to apply not only for policeman jobs but for all the other jobs that the city and the county had. HUNTLEY: So, in fact, the issue of policemen was the very first issue that the Movement actually dealt with I believe? JOHNSON: As far as jobs were concerned. Now there were sit-ins, of course, lunch counters and so forth. But as far as jobs was concerned, the economics then that this was the first case. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of the other demonstrations such as riding the buses? JOHNSON: I participated in the marches. I did not ride any of the buses and so forth. Because, at that time I had started pastoring and there was some things connected with applying, having received threatening phone calls and having to sit up and so forth -- my health, my pressure went up and so forth and so I was not able to do too much along that line, you know because of doctors orders. He didn' ; t want me to be under too much stress. HUNTLEY: You went to the Baptist College, right? JOHNSON: I went to Estonian Baptist Seminary and I became president of that school. HUNTLEY: In addition, you also attended UAB is that correct? JOHNSON: Yes. I attended UAB for one year and I also attended Southeastern Bible College for a year. HUNTLEY: Were there other members of your family that were involved in the Movement? JOHNSON: No more than moral support. I had my wife and family members were involved morally. They supported me but direct involvement, they were not directly involved in the Movement, no more than to support me morally. HUNTLEY: But they did support you? JOHNSON: Yes. Right. HUNTLEY: So their reaction to your participation was a positive reaction? JOHNSON: Yes a positive reaction. HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested? JOHNSON: No. The only thing that happened to me was threats, you know of bombing and what have you. HUNTLEY: What kind of threats? JOHNSON: And economic pressure was applied also. I was cut off at the L& ; N. I tried to get jobs at other places and .... HUNTLEY: What do you mean you were " ; cut off at L& ; N?" ; JOHNSON: They had a reduction in force. HUNTLEY: So you were one of those... JOHNSON: I was one. Of course I was called back a little bit later on, but by the time I was out of a job I applied at some places and they just didn' ; t hire me. HUNTLEY: Do you feel that was due to your activity with the Movement? JOHNSON: I don' ; t know. I think it had some connection but during that time though the Lord saw fit to call me into the ministry and that was in September 1958 and in January of 1959 I was called to my first church. So, the Lord saw fit to employ me, you know, through a call. And so I have been pastoring since that time. HUNTLEY: What church were you initially called to? JOHNSON: I was called to Greater New Bethel Baptist Church in an East Birmingham community. So it was a church where I was more or less reared and the people knew me and I was there for 25 years until 1984 when I was called to the church where I am presently. HUNTLEY: Was your church active in the Movement? JOHNSON: Some of them. At least they supported me. And then there were some who, you know, they were not directly involved. They had more or less a negative attitude. I don' ; t think it was towards the Movement. It was more or less toward me rather, you know. HUNTLEY: Were you able to have meetings at your church? JOHNSON: No I did not have any at the church per say because our facilities were not adequate enough because the church where I was called, it was an old church and we didn' ; t have the facilities. Later on we built a new sanctuary and so forth. But there was another church of a similar name -- New Bethel. It was Greater New Bethel and that church was born because of the association of my name with that church. Somebody miscalculated, you know, they bombed that church and thought they were bombing the church where I was pastoring. HUNTLEY: Where was this church? JOHNSON: It was located approximately six blocks from where I was pastoring. HUNTLEY: In East Birmingham? JOHNSON: In East Birmingham, yes. HUNTLEY: So they miscalculated and ... JOHNSON: Yes. Didn' ; t do much damage, more or less to the front. HUNTLEY: If I ask you to select maybe the three most important events during the period that we are discussing from 1956 to 1963 when the demonstrations took place, what would those events be? JOHNSON: I would say the Alabama Christian Movement was perhaps the most important event in the City of Birmingham. Now it laid the ground work for what happened later. Now when Dr. King came aboard and this is not to take anything from him, but when he came aboard Rev. Shuttlesworth had pioneered the Movement. He had the people organized and so forth. So Dr. King did not have to go through the process per say of getting us organized. He had an organization here in Birmingham that was already in place. And so, he just sort of piggy backed on what was already there. And the moving of the " ; White only" ; from the personnel application was another big event because economics was involved. And this gave the Blacks a chance to apply for jobs and receive those jobs. It also opened up -- I was also involved in litigation concerning the legislature and running for public office along with Attorney Shores we applied and we were denied. So we had to file a suit along that line. Attorney Shores didn' ; t qualify. I didn' ; t qualify and we filed a suit along that line and of course, we won out there and he was able to apply and run for whatever he wanted and everybody else. HUNTLEY: Was this done through -- under the auspices of the Alabama Christian Movement? JOHNSON: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, you used a lot of litigation then? JOHNSON: Yes. I was involved in at least two litigations. HUNTLEY: In 1961 the Freedom Riders came to Birmingham. What do you remember about that period? JOHNSON: All I remember is that they were beaten. I also remember that on one occasion after the segregation of seating and restaurants and all of those things were declared illegal that I attended a meeting in Mobile, Alabama and I was to address the convention at that time. And I took my church with me. HUNTLEY: To Mobile? JOHNSON: To Mobile. HUNTLEY: What convention was this? JOHNSON: This was the New Progressive Baptist State Convention. I was president of the music department and I had to give an annual message. My choir and other members charted a bus to go. Upon arriving at a certain place in route, I think its Grove Hill, Alabama, the driver stopped for a rest, you know for a rest stop. And we go off the bus and of course, I assisted the women getting off the bus and the women went in the restaurant not knowing the segregation still prevailed there in Grove Hill. And they went in and started using the restroom and word had gotten over that city in about 10 minutes- the whole city had gathered there in Grove Hill. And the reason was they thought we were Freedom Riders. HUNTLEY: Is this in the ' ; 60 or ' ; 61? JOHNSON: Yes. Somewhere along in there. Of course, they locked all of the doors and wouldn' ; t serve us and so forth. We got back on the bus and moved on out. But I just thought how close we came to being victims of segregation or brutality and so forth like here in Birmingham because we were thought to have been Freedom Riders. I don' ; t remember the exact year of that but it was along that time. HUNTLEY: In ' ; 62 the Miles College students and the Alabama Christian Movement came together and developed the Selective Buying Campaign downtown, where they boycotted stores. What do you remember about that period? JOHNSON: I remember that it was very effective. We supported that movement and so forth and we were able to accomplish what we set out for. And there were persons who were hired by some stores in Birmingham to be clerks and so forth. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the atmosphere prior to the ending of those segregated facilities? Do you remember any incidents that you may have been involved with? Do you remember riding the buses or any of the ways in which segregation manifested itself in the daily lives of people? JOHNSON: I didn' ; t encounter anything that was more or less negative. To a large extent they accepted the fact that they were going to be there and so forth. So I didn' ; t encounter anything negative. What I did encounter though was -- I encountered segregation as it relates to the federal government in ' ; 63. I didn' ; t apply -- I was too old to be a police patrolman so I applied for a job with the federal government and I passed the test and I was called by Social Security. And I started to working there in ' ; 63 but what I encountered is that they would always doctor the tests. And they had requirements and everything that we had to meet in order to be promoted. And later on after having been there several years, they started a supervisor program. From the time I was hired in ' ; 63 up until I believe it was ' ; 73 we only had one Black supervisor. HUNTLEY: This is at Social Security? JOHNSON: At Social Security. And so they decided then that they were going to pool -- start a pool of supervisors and there were 15 selected and of those 15 there were three Blacks and I was one of the three Blacks. And so my question was how was I selected. Was I selected on merit. Was I just selected, you know, because they thought I was a, you know, a good so and so, you know. And so I was assured I was selected on merit. But, at the same time, the personnel director wanted to give us special attention and write it up all over the paper and so forth and I didn' ; t agree to that. You know, this is what Social Security is doing here in Birmingham and I didn' ; t agree to that because that was a reflection on the system also a reflection on us to want to have that publicity when we knew that they were not doing anything to help Blacks that much. HUNTLEY: So you wouldn' ; t cooperate? JOHNSON: I didn' ; t cooperate and I didn' ; t receive the position either because I was warned that if I continued to rock the boat that I would not be selected. HUNTLEY: So you worked for Social Security for about ten years? JOHNSON: Thirteen. HUNTLEY: For 13 years. JOHNSON: I was finally selected though because one of my tutors asked me why I was not selected because he thought I was the most qualified, you know, having -- well, at that time, serving as pastor and all of that, you know. And so I told him and he said that I' ; m going to check into it, and he did. And in about two months I was made supervisor. It just shows you how the system worked. If you have somebody on the inside, that' ; s working for you, that' ; s how the system works. HUNTLEY: What benefits did you, your family and community realize as a result of the Movement? JOHNSON: The only benefit I have realized is the satisfaction that I have done something to bring all of this to fruition. You know, I am satisfied with myself that I made a contribution. Now, I am not satisfied with not even the Civil Rights Institute because many of us who were beneficial in getting this stuff started have been overlooked and so forth. HUNTLEY: How do you think that should have been done differently? The development of the Institute? JOHNSON: I think the persons who involved should have been -- should have had some input. You know, Rev. Shuttlesworth and Rev. Woods and so forth. I think they should have been involved in making the selection of persons that they should have given the recognition to. HUNTLEY: Both of them are on the Board of Directors. JOHNSON: They are now. HUNTLEY: That' ; s one of the reasons you are probably here now is because you were selected by that advisory committee who is doing that. So evidently the word is out that there are people like you who are very concerned about how the selections have been made. JOHNSON: In fact my wife mentioned this morning, say " ; It' ; s been so long I wouldn' ; t even worry about it, you know what you' ; ve done, so if they didn' ; t give you the recognition at that time.." ; In fact, Rev. N. H. Smith asked me had I ever received any and I said " ; No, I haven' ; t." ; But I know what I did. And so I am satisfied. HUNTLEY: Well, that' ; s why we are doing this so that we can recognize people who have not been recognized and we are going to set the record straight on the Movement itself. JOHNSON: Okay. I appreciate that. HUNTLEY: This is what we are about and I appreciate you doing this. If you were in control of the Movement and could go back and change some things, what would you change? JOHNSON: Like what for instance? HUNTLEY: During the Movement say from ' ; 56 to ' ; 65 or so? JOHNSON: I would be like -- I was in the Navy as I' ; ve already said and we had an admiral that -- whose name was Farragut and when he would encounter problems and so forth, of the enemy doing damage. His words were " ; Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead." ; So I would say we would do the same thing maybe with more involvement than we even had back there then. I don' ; t regret anything that we did because it took all of that to get us where we are now. HUNTLEY: What is your assessment of the Birmingham movement? How successful was it? What were the major accomplishments and were there any failure? JOHNSON: The major accomplishments as it relates to the Movement? HUNTLEY: Yes, sir. JOHNSON: Well, I think most Blacks are aware of the accomplishments who were living at that time. What was then and what is now, you know. But there are still prestige of segregation. We have the rights but we haven' ; t changed the minds of too many people yet. There is still " ; White flight," ; you know. I' ; m in a neighborhood where I can see it, you know, still " ; White flight." ; It doesn' ; t matter how you take care of your property and so forth. They are still moving and I am also involved with the Southern Baptist. We have a committee here called Inter-Baptist Fellowship Committee. And it' ; s a liaison between White Baptists and Black Baptists and we try to bring the two together for common good. And we are really having a problem. And we are starting -- this involves the best they have, the ministers and they are afraid, you know. Because I feel that the Black pastor is the only free pastor we have. The Black Baptist pastor is the only free pastor we have here involved in our churches, you know, because they have to cater to more or less to what their members say, not what the Lord say but what their members say. And so we' ; re having a problem of trying to bring in programs involving all of them because they are afraid of what their members say if they get too much involved with this. So, as a result their churches are moving out and we are running in getting their churches and so forth which is sort of a sad commentary on our Christian faith. HUNTLEY: I guess it is rather ironic that it appears that the last bastion of segregation happens to be the church? JOHNSON: Happens to be the church. HUNTLEY: How do we account for that? JOHNSON: I would say that we have Christ in our learning. We have Christ in our system, but we don' ; t have Christ in our hearts. If Christ was in our hearts, then everybody would be a brother. You see we have Christ everywhere but where he should be and that' ; s in the heart. And I don' ; t say its on the part of the Blacks but we, to some extent, we have a lot of it to, you know. HUNTLEY: So you are talking about a certain amount of hypocrisy now? JOHNSON: It' ; s hypocrisy. That' ; s a good example of hypocrisy. HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with in relationship to the Movement? JOHNSON: I wouldn' ; t add anything as far as the Movement is concerned. But I am very concerned now as a result of the Movement where we are now, you know. The white man is not lynching us now. He is not doing these things to us now. We are doing it to each other and it reflects on what has been done -- the sacrifices that have been made by many people who have even died for that and the children now don' ; t know enough about what happened back then and so our job now is to educate our young people as to where the Lord has brought them from. And I think that' ; s our main job so that we can get back to the kind of life that we were living because our only help came from sticking together and working together during that time, you know. And now we are getting to the point we hardly know each other. HUNTLEY: So you are saying that we need to teach this history of the civil rights movement so that we can know from whence we' ; ve come? JOHNSON: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: Do you see the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute playing a role in that? JOHNSON: The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute should have a big role in that. But I don' ; t think we should all leave it to the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Those of us who are pastoring and what you should see to it that our children, at least, and we should move into the schools and let them know. We should contend that history books are written so that the Civil Rights Movement would be part of the history, more in detail than maybe -- I am not sure that we even have any Black history books now. They did when I was in school, you know, but I' ; m not sure we even have any Black history books now that would, in detail, give this kind of information and that' ; s real sad. So how are they going to learn in school when they can' ; t study the history of the Blacks. HUNTLEY: There are some and what we are hoping to do with this material that we are getting now -your interview for instance, we are hoping at some point that we will be able to utilize this to write the definitive study of the Civil Rights Movement. And the only way you can do that is by going to the people who were there, who were involved and that is people like you. JOHNSON: Let me ask you this question. What effect has it had? I know at one time you and some of the others at UAB fought to have a school set up for this. What happened? HUNTLEY: Well, we' ; re still struggling with that issue. There are some of us who believe there is a need for a Department of African American Studies. And what has happened I developed a program there 15 years ago and the program, you can just go so far with that. There' ; s a need now to expand that and the way that you do that in academia is to develop a department and the administration basically has been rather resistant to that idea. But we' ; re still struggling with that and ... JOHNSON: Is there a way that in the churches can help along that line? Is there a separation of...you know. HUNTLEY: It' ; s always important that we have the community involved and as it progress we will be in touch with people like yourself in the community to try and get that done. JOHNSON: Okay. HUNTLEY: I appreciate you asking that because there are not many people that are asking those kinds of questions. Lastly, do you have any items related to the Movement or to the development of Birmingham that you would like to donate to the Institute? JOHNSON: I looked today. I had some -- I have -- I don' ; t know where I can put my hands on it. I had letters that I wrote to the personnel board and I had a few news clippings. That' ; s about the only thing. Because when I talked to Lois, she said we didn' ; t know we were making history so as a result we didn' ; t reserve too much. We are bad on reserving our history anyway. HUNTLEY: Well, if you come across any material get in touch with myself or with Ms. Hendricks or with the archivist at the Institute and we very much appreciate it. And again, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule and you coming and sitting with us to help us really develop this story. Because the only way you get the true story is from the people who were involved and you of course were one of those. Thank you again. JOHNSON: It has been a pleasure. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=GJohnson1995.xml GJohnson1995.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rev. George Johnson
Description
An account of the resource
Rev. George Johnson discusses combating employment discrimination in Birmingham, including by suing the Personnel Board. He continued to participate in the Movement through his church.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
19950413J
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company
Birmingham Personnel Board (Birmingham, Ala.)
Selective Buying Campaign
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1995-04-13
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video