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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
Type
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Oral History
Subject
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Binnie Myles
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Alice Wright
OHMS Object
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Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AWright1995.xml
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5.3 November 10, 1995 Alice Wright Interviewed on November 10, 1995 19951110W 0:20:48 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Laura Benton Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Police-community relations New Zion Missionary Baptist Church Alice Wright Binnie Myles Video 1:|21(5)|55(3)|77(6)|103(11)|124(9)|139(6)|159(7)|177(9)|195(15)|214(5)|239(8)|260(6)|285(2)|305(9)|321(6)|346(16)|358(5)|379(7)|395(10)|413(6) 0 https://youtu.be/2Ujn9vbEPNw YouTube video English 21 Introduction to the Interview This is an interview with Alice Wright for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project by Bennie Miles at Miles College on November 10, 1995. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Miles College ; Miles, Bennie ; Wright, Alice oral history project 33.516200, -86.813870 18 The Birmingham Civil Rights Insitute https://www.bcri.org/ The homepage of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute 35 Family Background We are talking about the Civil Rights Movement during some of the early years. Let me ask you this about your family. What part of the state are your parents from? Ms. Wright describes growing up in Bessemer, Alabama and belonging to a family of farmers that moved from Livingston, Alabama. Bessemer (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Livingston (Ala.) Personal narratives 172 Educational Background What about your education? Did you finish elementary and high school? Wright describes graduating from Dunbar High School in Bessemer, Alabama and furthering her education at Booker T. Washington Business College. From there, she went on to mortuary school at Jefferson State Community College and took a real estate course at the University of Alabama at Birmingham. Bessemer (Ala.) ; Booker T. Washington Business College ; Dunbar High School (Bessemer, Ala.) ; Jefferson State Community College ; University of Alabama at Birmingham Education, Higher--History ; Education, Secondary--History 256 Wright's Role in the Movement & ; Donations Made to Fund the Movement How did you get involved in the Movement? Wright describes her role as a bookkeeper during the Movement. She first became involved through her employer at the funeral home, Mr. W.E. Shortridge, who was a treasurer during the Movement. She describes the mass meetings that occurred on Monday nights and the demand for her bookkeeping skills because of the continuous flow of contributions to the movement. She talks about the people such as doctors who made large donations but wanted to keep their contributions anonymous for safety. Shortridge, W. E. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights 429 Assassination Attempt on W.E. Shortridge However, they never did do anything at the funeral home but they did at Mr. Shortridge's home. Wright describes the assassination attempt on W.E. Shortridge in his home. She states that bullets were fired at his home, but that no one was hurt. This did not discourage him from fighting in the Civil Rights movement. Civil rights movement ; Shortridge, W. E. Assassination attempt, [date] 483 Bessemer Police-Community Relations How were the police during that time in terms of the neighborhood where you lived, and also were you worked? Wright describes how police relations were in the community of Bessemer. The police were always nearby but only offered lip-service. Bessemer (Ala.) Police-community relations 526 Personal & ; Family Involvement in the Movement What about your family, were they fearful for you, were you afraid for yourself? Wright states that she never was discouraged from attending the meetings or being part of the Movement. Her son was part of the demonstrations and marches. Civil rights demonstrations Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama 598 Connection to Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Did you ever meet Dr. King? Wright describes first meeting Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. in the funeral home she worked in. She describes him as a wonderful man. She describes how other people in her church and in the community were intimidated or scared by Dr. King's presence because of bombings. Civil rights movement King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 706 Son's Experience with Voting M: Your son went to college? W: Yes, he's a graduate of Miles. M: Did you instill in them the importance of voting? Wright describes how she encouraged her son to vote. She discusses the unreasonable tests that black voters had to take in order to become a registered voter. The interviewer briefly touches on the poll tax that was enforced on black voters as another obstacle to being able to vote. Poll tax Voting 759 Police-Community Relations What was your community's relationship with the police department as you grew older? The police never came into the community of Bessemer unless a crime was committed. Occasionally, the police could be spotted patrolling the community in their cars. Police-community relations 795 Community Organization Involvement Were you a member of any community organizations other than the Movement? Wright was a member of the Voters League in Bessemer, Alabama, but she did not hold an office in it. Bessemer (Ala.) Voters League 816 Decision to Join the Movement & ; Involvement in Mass Meetings You said you got involved in the Movement because of where you worked and because your boss was involved, was it something that you saw that you really just wanted to do, or was it something, because you worked there that he wanted you to do? Wright describes her role in the movement as a personal choice, not something she was subjected to unwillingly. She talks about the Monday meetings which were normally very crowded, and talks about the presence of police officers at those meetings. Civil rights movement 869 People Arrested During the Movement & ; Parents' Concerns Did you go to jail at any time during the Movement? Wright was never taken to jail, but she talks about two influential men who were arrested during the Movement, Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth and Reverend Abraham Woods. She discusses the concern her family had for her well-being as she played an active role in the Movement as a bookkeeper. Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Woods Jr., Abraham Lincoln, 1928-2008 Arrest 938 Church's Noninvolvement in the Movement What church were you a member of during that time? The church Wright attended was not active in the movement at all. She believes the minister, Reverend Ravizee, was fearful of harm coming to the congregation, such as church bombings. Bessemer (Ala.) New Zion Missionary Baptist Church 979 The Hiring of Black People as Result of the Movement Because of the Movement, what kind of benefit would you say that you, your family and your community did you realize? Wright states that one of the most obvious benefits of the Movement was the hiring of black people in roles they were never before seen working in. Job creation 1041 Personal Vision for Improvement & ; Items Related to the Movement If you were in control of the Movement and you could go back and change some things, would you change anything? Wright shares her opinion of the Movement and states that she would not have done anything differently in concern to it. In the interview she is asked if she held on to any artifacts of the movements such as the receipts from her bookkeeping. She states that she did not, but that many artifacts such as letters from Dr. King and Wyatt T. Walker were in the care of Mrs. Fred Shuttleworth. Bookkeeping ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Walker, Wyatt Tee Birmingham, (Ala.) 1150 Advice to Young People of Voting Age Today, what do you think of the Movement? What do you think of youngsters today as it relates to the Movement, those that are of voting age? Wright believes that younger African Americans do not have the gratitude they should toward voting rights, because they do not think about the sacrifices it took to achieve that right. She encourages citizens to utilize their right to vote. Voting age Voting-United States 1211 Conclusion to the Interview Well, we certainly thank you for taking the time and sharing with us today. The interviewer concludes the interview with Alice Wright and thanks her for her time. Oral History Alice Wright discusses her work with W. E. Shortridge and the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights.She helped keeps the books and documentation for the Movement. MILES: This is an interview with Alice Wright for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project by Binnie Miles at Miles College on November 10, 1995. Mrs. Wright, how are you today? WRIGHT: Fine. MILES: Good. We are talking about the Civil Rights Movement during some of the early years. Let me ask you this about your family. What part of the state are your parents from? WRIGHT: Livingston, Alabama. MILES: Were you born in Birmingham or were you born in Livingston? WRIGHT: I was born in Livingston, Sumpter County. MILES: About how far is that away from Birmingham? WRIGHT: About 100 miles. MILES: Did you grow up in Livingston? WRIGHT: No. I grew up in Bessemer. MILES: How old were you when you came to Birmingham, do you remember? WRIGHT: Eleven months old. MILES: You were just a baby. WRIGHT: Yes. MILES: Do you have any brothers and sisters? WRIGHT: Yes. I have two brothers and sisters living and I have two dead. MILES: Were they born in Livingston, also? WRIGHT: They were also born in Livingston. MILES: So where do you fit in the five children? WRIGHT: I was the middle one. MILES: What about education? Did your parents have so-called " ; formal" ; education? WRIGHT: No, they didn' ; t. I think they went about the 5th or 6th grade. MILES: Were they from Alabama? WRIGHT: They were from Livingston. They were farmers. MILES: What kind of farming did they do? WRIGHT: Well, just cotton. Of course, they raised other things for their own livelihood. MILES: So, when you moved to Bessemer did they still have a garden or things like that? WRIGHT: Yes. They had a garden, a cow, pigs, and that type of thing when they moved to Bessemer in the early years. MILES: So, did you learn to milk a cow? WRIGHT: No. I never did. MILES: Did you have to feed the pigs? WRIGHT: Oh, yes. MILES: When they got older did you sell them? WRIGHT: Well, they only just raised enough for themselves. MILES: What about your education? Did you finish elementary and high school? WRIGHT: Yes. I graduated from Dunbar High School in Bessemer, Alabama. MILES: What about after high school? WRIGHT: After high school I went to Booker T. Washington Business College. MILES: How was that for you during that time? WRIGHT: It was fine. MILES: What kind of courses did you take? WRIGHT: Well, I just took regular management course such as typing, shorthand, English, that type of thing. MILES: I guess during that time, that the only place to go for a higher education, Booker T. Washington Business College? WRIGHT: Yes, at that time, back in the ' ; 42 or ' ; 43. MILES: I guess there were a lot of people who attended that school, who, as they moved up, because of being able to go to Booker T. Washington, you were able to get better jobs? WRIGHT: True. That is correct. MILES: Did you have any other schooling after you attended Booker T. Washington? WRIGHT: Well, I had taken a course in mortuary science at Jeff. State and a real estate course at UAB. MILES: How did you get involved in the Movement? WRIGHT: Well, I got involved through my employer. He was the treasurer of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. I kept his records, the type of information when the kids went to jail to get them out on bond. I kept their weekly, monthly reports and see that their receipts and all were correct and sent to the bank for their collection. MILES: Who was your employer during that time? WRIGHT: W. E. Shortridge. MILES: And that' ; s a funeral home? WRIGHT: It is. MILES: How was that for you, keeping those books and the information that you learned? I' ; m sure even doing numbers, you had conversations and you knew some of the things that were going on, what were some of the things that they shared? WRIGHT: Well, it was like keeping up with the receipts of the week because they had meetings every Monday night and they would give contributions. And so, many people would give money and that type of thing every week to keep the Movement going. MILES: How often would people get locked up? WRIGHT: Oh, just every day. It was a very crucial time, at that time that I worked there, when Mr. Shortridge was treasurer of the Movement. It was just a daily thing. MILES: During the time, then that money was not that great and people didn' ; t get paid that much but they gave, how much money would people donate? Would it be a couple of dollars or more than that? WRIGHT: Oh, they donated quite a bit of money. A lot of the doctors in Birmingham didn' ; t want their names published, but they gave almost monthly, donations to the Movement. MILES: Were these Black or White doctors? WRIGHT: They were black. MILES: Why did they not want their names published? WRIGHT: Well, it was just crucial then. They were afraid of being bombed and the pressure that would be put on you if they found out that you were supporting the Movement. MILES: You talked about the donations and people going to jail often, were you ever afraid because you kept the books or wondering if something may ever happen to you? WRIGHT: I really wasn' ; t afraid even though we would get daily threats over the telephone that " ; We' ; re coming and bomb you," ; and " ; We' ; re going to do this to you," ; and " ; We' ; re going to do that," ; over the telephone. However, they never did do anything at the funeral home but they did at Mr. Shortridge' ; s home. MILES: What happened to his home? WRIGHT: Well, he had this attempted assassination one night and it was just the grace of the good Lord, that he was not killed. MILES: So when they attempted to assassinate him, how was that done? WRIGHT: Well, they shot at him several times and bullets went into his home where his family was, but no one was hurt. MILES: So, after that, did he decide this was too dangerous? WRIGHT: Oh, no. He was a fighter. He was a civil rights fighter. And, of course, they did have to put guards at his house, things got so tense at one time. MILES: How were the police during that time in terms of the neighborhood where you lived, and also were you worked? WRIGHT: Well, they were always pretending they were going to help you. For instance, my son Desmond went to Bessemer at, I think it was McClendon at that time, for a sit-in at the lunch counter. And, several of them were beaten and about a day after the FBI came out to get information and, this and that, but you never heard anything else from them. MILES: So it was just a lot of lip service? WRIGHT: That' ; s all. MILES: What about your family, were they fearful for you, were you afraid for yourself? WRIGHT: Well, I guess you just have to do what you have to do and I never really thought about it too much. And, of course, I used to also attend the Movement on Monday nights and I was riding with someone else so, I just forgot about it. I got used to the intimidation and all of them, the calls saying they were going to bomb you and the funeral home. You just got accustomed to it. MILES: What about at your home? Did you ever get calls at home because... WRIGHT: No. I never did get any calls at home. MILES: You mentioned that you have a son, Desmond? WRIGHT: Yes. MILES: When he was growing up, and your daughter Constance, what did they think about the Movement? Were they involved, were they afraid for you? WRIGHT: Well, my son Desmond, he marched in some of the demonstrations. At that time he was going to school at Abrams High in Bessemer. MILES: Did you ever meet Dr. King? WRIGHT: Oh, yes. MILES: When was the first time you met him that you can remember? WRIGHT: Well, when I first met him he was at the shop, the funeral home, with (Inaudible), that' ; s where I first met him. And, then, I would always see him at the Movement on Monday nights. MILES: What did you think of him? WRIGHT: Oh, I thought he was a wonderful man. I really did. MILES: Did you have an opportunity to talk with him at all? WRIGHT: Well, no more than just speaking casually. They would go into their meetings and that type of thing. MILES: When you said " ; what a great man you thought he was," ; when you saw him and was in his presence, how did you see other people viewing him? What did they seem to think of him? WRIGHT: Well, the other people seemed to (Inaudible) except some of the elder people. They were always afraid. For instance, my church, they would never have the Movement because they were too afraid of them bombing the church and that type of thing. There were some elders who was not having the same viewpoints as the others. But, most of the elders were a little afraid. MILES: What about your daughter, was she involved? WRIGHT: No. She was not involved. She did not know about the signs in the stores saying " ; colored" ; and " ; white" ; . When I used to tell her about it, then she couldn' ; t hardly understand seeing that type of thing in stores that said, " ; colored" ; and " ; white" ; . But, my son knew about it. MILES: What would he say? WRIGHT: Oh, he just thought it was awful. MILES: Your son went to college? WRIGHT: Yes, he' ; s a graduate of Miles. MILES: Did you instill in them the importance of voting? WRIGHT: Oh, yes, I did that. And, when he got of age, he went down to register to vote. MILES: When you became a registered voter, what did you think during that time of the poll tax? Did you have to take a test? WRIGHT: Yes. I just thought it was awful and the questions they would ask you were just unreasonable. MILES: Would you share with us some of those questions that they asked? WRIGHT: Oh, they would ask you " ; How many stars are there in the sky?" ; That type of thing. MILES: Things that had nothing to do with wanting to vote? WRIGHT: That' ; s right. MILES: What was your community' ; s relationship with the police department as you grew older? Aside from, when you said, " ; the police pretended that they wanted to protect you and they really didn' ; t" ; in the community where you lived. Were the police friendly? Did they come into the community? WRIGHT: No. They didn' ; t come into the community unless there was crime, but other than that you never saw them. You might see them riding around in the community in their cars. MILES: Were you a member of any community organizations other than the Movement? WRIGHT: Well, I was a member of the Voters League in Bessemer but that was about all? MILES: Did you hold an office, like secretary or treasurer? WRIGHT: No. I didn' ; t hold any office in the Voter' ; s League. MILES: You said you got involved in the Movement because of where you worked and because your boss was involved, was it something that you saw that you really just wanted to do, or was it something, because you worked there that he wanted you to do? WRIGHT: It was just something that I wanted to do. I just wanted to see, with the kids coming along, having a better life than I had. MILES: How would you describe, let' ; s say, a typical Monday meeting? WRIGHT: Well, at that time the church was usually packed and they also used to have officers there in the back to see what was going on. I just assumed that they carried that information back to their bosses or whoever sent them there. MILES: Did you go to jail at any time during the Movement? WRIGHT: No. I never did go to jail. MILES: Who were some of the people who went to jail, because you knew a lot of them because of the receipts and keeping up with the records? Did you ever talk with any of them once they got out? And, if so, what was it like for them being in jail? WRIGHT: Well, not necessarily. Some of the officers of the Movement went to jail, like Shuttlesworth and Rev. Woods and that group, but that' ; s about the extent of that. MILES: What was your parent' ; s reaction to you participating in the form of keeping the books? Were they concerned that people would know that you were keeping these books and something may happen to you? WRIGHT: Well, they were concerned because they knew at that time what really could happen to you. And, at that time, nothing was ever done about it. Someone would come and ask questions, but never know a result. MILES: What church were you a member of during that time? WRIGHT: New Zion Missionary Baptist Church in Bessemer. MILES: Is that the church that you' ; re still a member of now? WRIGHT: Yes. MILES: Was your church very active in the Movement? WRIGHT: Not active at all. MILES: Did the minister ever say why? WRIGHT: Well, Rev. Ravizee was there at that time and he was kind of an elder minister and with them bombing the churches where the Movement was holding some of their meetings, I think he was just afraid for something happening to the church, so they were not active at all. MILES: Because of the Movement, what kind of benefit would you say that you, your family and your community did you realize? WRIGHT: Well, they were hiring. You would go into the department stores and it was unheard of being any Black salesmen and that type of thing, nothing but White. I remember the (Inaudible) at Loveman' ; s, no Pizitz, where you would have to go to the basement to eat and, of course you had to stand up at the lunch counter. There were no provisions there for you to sit. Well, you can go to the offices like city hall and the county courthouse. It was unheard of even going in there and seeing Black people in those positions, as you do now. MILES: If you were in control of the Movement and you could go back and change some things, would you change anything? WRIGHT: No. I wouldn' ; t. MILES: You think everything was okay the way that it was? WRIGHT: I think they did a wonderful job. I also feel that they made quite a bit of improvement, but there' ; s still more improvement can be made. MILES: What kind of improvement would you like to see made? WRIGHT: Now? MILES: Yes. WRIGHT: Well, here in Birmingham I think they' ; ve done quite a bit for heads of departments, you know some of them being held down by Blacks, which it used to be unheard of. But I still feel that there' ; s some type of improvement still can be made. MILES: You said you kept the books during that time during the funeral home. Do you have any items that may be related to the Movement, to the development of Birmingham that you would like to donate? Did you keep any of those old receipts just for history, or anything like that? WRIGHT: Well, Mr. Shuttlesworth kept all of that, because he typed the daily receipts and who paid who even though it wasn' ; t public knowledge. He kept very good books as far as that' ; s concerned, and he kept all of that material. MILES: So you don' ; t have any? WRIGHT: I don' ; t have any. It is in the possession of his widow, Mrs. Shuttlesworth, she has that information now. Letters from Dr. King and Wyatt T. Walker and people of that nature. They would write him when they were out of the city, when they weren' ; t here. MILES: Today, what do you think of the Movement? What do you think of youngsters today as it relates to the Movement, those that are of voting age? Do you think enough young people are registered to vote? WRIGHT: Well, I think they could do better, for the sacrifice that they' ; ve had to get to vote. I feel that they really should use the opportunity. MILES: Do you think, with looking at what' ; s going on across the country, that people utilize the power of the vote as much as we should? WRIGHT: No. I don' ; t think they do, because we just have that sitting down thing. And, then, some of us take the attitude, " ; Oh, they' ; re going to do this anyway, whether I vote or not," ; which is bad. MILES: If you could say one something to encourage people to vote, what would you say? WRIGHT: I would say " ; Get out and vote, and it would really make a change." ; MILES: Well, we certainly thank you for taking the time and sharing with us today. WRIGHT: Thank you. MILES: We appreciate it and we' ; ll be talking with you a little later. MILES: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AWright1995.xml AWright1995.xml
Dublin Core
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Title
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Alice Wright
Description
An account of the resource
Alice Wright discusses her work with W. E. Shortridge and the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights.She helped keeps the books and documentation for the Movement.
Identifier
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19951110W
Subject
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Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
Police-community relations
New Zion Missionary Baptist Church
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1995-11-10
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video
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
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Video
Type
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Oral History
Subject
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Language
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English
Identifier
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bcriohp
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Horace Huntley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Almarie Billups
OHMS Object
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Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ABillups1995.xml
Interview Keyword
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included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
National Association of the Advancement of Colored People
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5.4 June 28, 1995 Almarie Billups 19950628B 1:08:28 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Billups, Charles S.C.L.C. Operation Breadbasket National Association of the Advancement of Colored People Almarie Billups Horace Huntley Video 1:|3(6)|26(1)|39(16)|58(2)|76(3)|91(2)|109(2)|121(13)|138(2)|151(10)|168(5)|176(9)|193(3)|203(8)|216(5)|228(10)|243(8)|260(4)|277(4)|300(7)|331(5)|355(13)|372(11)|397(4)|408(7)|421(2)|439(1)|462(3)|479(5)|509(6)|522(6)|552(3)|573(13)|591(2)|605(4)|615(17)|637(6)|648(2)|662(6)|675(13)|701(8)|715(10)|727(6)|748(14)|761(10)|782(11)|802(15)|853(12)|866(12)|888(4)|912(16)|930(3)|944(2)|960(11)|977(12)|997(2)|1020(16)|1048(10)|1059(16)|1075(14)|1087(7)|1099(13)|1109(11)|1132(13)|1141(17)|1152(4)|1163(16)|1184(14) 0 https://youtu.be/mR7xLTi4XPU YouTube video English 44 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Alma Billups for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Alma Billups is introduced Billups family ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Oral history interview 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 65 Family Background I just want to start by asking a few general kinds of questions about your family. Billups explains where her parents were born, when they moved to Birmingham, and their occupations ; she also mentions her siblings. Family Birmingham (Ala.) ; Camp Hill (Ala.) ; Irondale (Ala.) 290 Childhood and Education Tell me a little about your childhood. Where did you start elementary school? Billups recounts how she started school early to go to school with her brothers, her experience at Irondale Senior High, and the people who most inspired her at school. Elementary school ; High schools Elementary school teachers ; Irondale City High School (Irondale, Ala.) ; Science teachers 509 Irondale Community and Childhood Memories Tell me about the community that you lived in. What kind of work did the people do? What did you do for recreation? What do you remember as a child? Billups recounts how Mt. Hebron Baptist Church served as a community hub for the Irondale area with many activities, and she also talks about how her family's middle class status allowed them to host parties for the community. Church ; Mt. Hebron Baptist Church African Americans--Recreation ; Irondale (Ala.) ; Mt. Hebron Baptist Church 787 Meeting Her Husband, Charles Billups What did you do after high school? Billups describes how in 1947, she started working at a meat factory in Woodlawn, Alabama where she met her husband, Charles Billups, whom she married a month after they met, and remained married to him for 22 years until his death in 1968. Irondale (Ala.) ; Woodlawn (Ala.) African Americans--Marriage ; Billups, Charles 1026 Involvement in the NAACP and ACMHR Your husband was very active in the NAACP. Were you active in the NAACP? Billups talks about how she, and her husband especially, were involved with the NAACP and the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights, including assisting others with voter registrations, and going to meetings. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; National Association of the Advancement of Colored People Civil rights organizations ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Voter registration 1403 Beatings and Bomb Threats It was horrible at first, because I was not disgusted, I was afraid that something was going to happen to the children. And, see, in '57 was when my husband was beaten up. Billups recounts how in 1957, her husband was beaten after using a white bathroom, which resulted in a two weeks' hospital stay, during which they received bomb threats. Bomb threat Abuse ; Attempted murder ; Death threats 1900 Working at University Hospital Well, I'm sure that on your job, what occupation did you have? Billups explains how she worked at University Hospital as a Licensed Practical Nurse, and how she faced discrimination from her supervisor and other doctors. Hospitals--United States ; Nursing--United States African American nurses ; Discrimination in employment--United States ; University Hospital, (Ala.) 2297 The Difficulties of Being Married to an Activist What was the most difficult thing you had to endure as a result of being the wife of Rev. Billups? Billups describes how being married to an activist was challenging since it meant they were sometimes rejected for bank loans, jobs, and even experienced having their phone bugged ; she also expressed how she personally felt frustrated at times. African American political activists ; African Americans--Marriage ; Billups, Charles Civil rights movement ; Discrimination in commercial loans ; Discrimination in employment 2510 Demonstrations and Movements in 1963 What do you remember about the demonstrations of 1963? Billups recalls the different demonstrations, including one where her husband and others knelt in prayer and did not have hoses or dogs turned on them ; she also describes when she and her daughters almost encountered the Ku Klux Klan. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Non-violence African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Ku Klux Klan 2758 Alabama Christian Movement Mass Meetings and Operation Breadbasket And, then, he became involved in Operation Breadbasket. Billups details her husband's involvement in Operation Breadbasket, and describes what the March on Washington and the mass meetings of the ACMHR were like. King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Mass meetings Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) ; S.C.L.C. Operation Breadbasket 2892 Relationship with Police Brutality And the policeman was coming in and some kind of way, accidentally, Charles brushed against him or something and they brought the paddy wagon right there to the meeting and threw him up against the paddy wagon. Billups recounts how the police would aggressively throw her husband against the paddy wagon and how there were times where the police would dismantle and hide stop signs in order to arrest him for " ; traffic violations." ; Billups, Charles Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Discrimination in law enforcement ; Police brutality--United States 3113 Charles Billups' Other Jobs And what kind of work did he do? Billups talks about the job her husband got in Chicago at the National Tea Company, and how he moved up quickly to Director of Human Relations. Billups, Charles ; Human Relations ; National Tea Company African Americans--Employment ; Chicago, Ill. 3449 Charles Billups' Death Well, how did your husband die? Billups explains how her husband was shot and that his death was not heavily investigated. African American civic leaders ; Billups, Charles ; Death Chicago (Ill.) ; Murder ; Murder--Investigation 3681 Reflection on the Movement If you would look back in the days that you were in Birmingham and if you had the potential of changing what took place, say between the time that you were married and 1963, what would you change? Billups talks about how she hopes the past movements will inspire the education of young people, and that she would not change anything about her husband's involvement in the Civil Rights Movement. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Billups, Charles African Americans--Education ; Change 3832 Importance of Family Support Is there anything else that we have not touched on that you would like to include on this tape that's related to the Movement or to your family? Billups talks about her parents who were supportive of her and her husband and how people in their past also gave support, include Reverend Robert Alford. African American families ; African American religious leaders ; Alford, Robert 4016 Conclusion of Interview Well, you have been a strength. Not just for your children and family, but for a lot of people in the community. So I would like to thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to sit with us today. Conclusion of the interview African American history ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Historical interview Oral History Almarie Billups discusses being deeply involved in the Movement with her husband, Charles Billups. She worked hard balancing supporting her family and supporting the Movement. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Alma Billups for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at 465 Water Street on June 28, 1995. Mrs. Billups, thank you for inviting us into your home to speak with us today. BILLUPS: You' ; re welcome. HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking a few general kinds of questions about your family. Where were your parents from? BILLUPS: My mother and father was born in Camp Hill, Alabama. That' ; s in Tallapoosa County. HUNTLEY: Down Highway 280? BILLUPS: Yes. You know, at first it was this mountain that the train went through. They called it Double Oaks Mountain before they converted it. And the train, they called it the Little Short Central. We would ride that from Irondale to Camp Hill. Go through Dadeville and go on to Camp Hill. And you went through the mountain in a tunnel. But now you know you can go out 280. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Camp Hill? BILLUPS: No. I wasn' ; t. My mother and father came to Birmingham. Well, it' ; s Irondale. They moved there in 1922. And I had two brothers born before me. One was born in ' ; 21 and the other was born in ' ; 22. Then I had a brother born in ' ; 23 and one born in ' ; 24 and I was born in ' ; 25. HUNTLEY: So you' ; re the baby? BILLUPS: I' ; m the baby. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your parents. What was their education? BILLUPS: Now, my daddy was a WWI vet. He was in the war. They were mostly farmers and my mother' ; s father owned something like a plantation. Because when we could go there in the summer, after we got out of school, he had acres of land. He planted a lot of cotton. He had apple orchards and peaches and grapes, chickens. HUNTLEY: This is in Camp Hill? BILLUPS: This is in Camp Hill and we would go there for the summer. That' ; s after my mother and father had moved here. And we would go there and my grandfather, my mother' ; s father, he was kind of like, kind of wealthy I believe, I assume you would say Black people were in those days. He owned his own home and things like that. HUNTLEY: How much schooling did your parents have? BILLUPS: Well, I would say maybe not a 6th or the 8th grade. Something like that. HUNTLEY: What were their occupations? BILLUPS: My daddy first started out working in a coal mine. And they were coal mines at that time that Black men worked in, the shafts were so low, they had to lay on their backs with a little cap, they called it a mining cap and it would have carbolic acid and you' ; d put it in there and it would flash and turn the light on. They had to hold their head up to dig coal. And, after he left the coal mine, well, I guess I was 10 or 11, he started working on the railroad, the Southern Railroad and that' ; s where he retired from. HUNTLEY: Was your mother a housewife? Did she work outside of the house? BILLUPS: No more than having to help daddy out, maybe, washing and ironing for the white people. Maybe house cleaning sometime. But mostly, she was housewife. She set up our house and she did a lot of preserving and canning and cooking, you know. HUNTLEY: She did what housewives did at that time, right? BILLUPS: At that time, yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your childhood. Where did you start elementary school? BILLUPS: Well, I started elementary school when I was 5 ½. And the reason I was able to do that is because my mother would take my brothers and I thought I was supposed to go everywhere the brothers went. And when she would take them to school I would cry. And so the teacher' ; s name was Bertha B. Howard, I will never forget. She said, " ; Let her come on." ; And so she let me settle on with six year olds. And I learned. HUNTLEY: So you went ahead of yourself? BILLUPS: I went ahead of myself. Because I finished high school when I was 17 ½. But I tell you one thing, in all the schools, Bertha B. Howard was my inspiration and the lady that taught me how to read, write and arithmetic. Those were the basics. Now, they didn' ; t just say, I can write better than any of my children. I can write better than my grandchildren, because they write their own style. They draw their writing, you know. But we were taught writing. We had a writing book. And at first grade, when it was time for them, they would go to the front seat and they did their work. You know every grade would move up. It was a small town so there wasn' ; t that many children, but it went to the fifth grade. At that time I was in the sixth grade and graduated from the sixth grade and would have gone to, I can' ; t think of it. But anyway, my brothers went to high school at Parker High in the city. But when they built this high school on Grants Mill Road, you passed a place called the Golden Rule Bar B Que, right on Grants Mill Road and that' ; s 78, you know. HUNTLEY: What was the name of that school? BILLUPS: It was, they called it Irondale Senior High at that time. But, I graduated from there in 1942 when I was 17 ½. But, after that year, they converted into a junior high school. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your high school days? What stands out in your mind about that time? BILLUPS: What really stands out, my science teacher, Mrs. Warren, Marqueta Warren, and I don' ; t know whether she still teaching there, but my mother got very ill when I was in the 11th grade fixing to go to the 12th grade and I had stayed home quite a bit, because I' ; m the only girl. There were a certain amount of experiments we had to do to complete that science class. She would stay with me after school and help me to make up those experiments so I would have enough credits and my mother and father was not able at that time, because momma was so ill, they were not able to buy me a class ring, and you know they cost $12.95 then, but... HUNTLEY: That was a lot of money at that time? BILLUPS: Oh, goodness. And it was beautiful gold. Ms. Warren said, " ; Don' ; t cry, I' ; ll get your ring for you." ; She got me a ring. HUNTLEY: I' ; m sure that that made an impression on you? BILLUPS: Yes, and my mother sewed. Because when I graduated from the 6th grade to the 7th grade, you know, that was just like, you got a diploma and you wore a ribbon, but I didn' ; t have a white dress. You had to have a white dress. My mother had a white dress, she cut her white dress up and made it for me and I graduated from elementary school. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the community that you lived in. What kind of work did the people do? What did you do for recreation? What do you remember as a child? BILLUPS: As a child I remember we were a very close knit neighborhood. Mt. Hebron Baptist Church that' ; s where the center of most everything were. We would go to Vacation Bible School and, then there was an open lot right next to mommy and daddy' ; s lot and that' ; s where my mother, the ladies and everything went on the picnics and things like that, they did a lot of bar-b-queuing. And we played out there and we called it the grove. But the church used to sponsor things like hay rides on the back of a truck. And we had Sunday School picnics and we played a lot of baseball back then. I never learned how to play. You know what, all four of my big brothers took care of me. HUNTLEY: You were sheltered? BILLUPS: Yes. You know what, everybody in Irondale could skate, ride bicycles, do all that, I couldn' ; t. But, my brothers would put me on the back of their bicycles and ride me. HUNTLEY: What did you like to do most of all? BILLUPS: Run with my brothers. And, like at church, we had junior choirs and senior choirs. I liked to do a lot of singing. And my oldest brother did a lot of singing at that time. HUNTLEY: So you were intimately involved with the church? BILLUPS: With the church, yes. I even remember the pastor. Out of all these years, Rev. W. H. Smith, I joined the church under him. HUNTLEY: Did your parents own or did they rent? BILLUPS: They owned. My brother, at first we rented. When I was like 6 or 7 years old. But, my daddy bought a piece of property. When he went to WWI they didn' ; t pay them all. They got what you call a bonus and he got his second bonus, all the rest of his money. What you call mustering out pay. They called them bonuses then. And in 1941, they sent my daddy $832 and my daddy and my oldest brother, he already had this lot. My daddy and my oldest brother built this house. That whole house. It was two bedrooms and they built me a little small one by me being the only girl. The boys had a room to themselves. Momma and daddy' ; s room and, then, I had a small room. And we had a living room, a kitchen and dining room, but we had outside toilet facilities at that time. But eventually we got, you know. And, at first we had electric light. And, you know, I got my best lessons then. But guess what, then we got electricity down in that little section and in each room, there was one light hanging down. You clicked it. HUNTLEY: I remember those. BILLUPS: And we had a radio. HUNTLEY: So you were middle class? BILLUPS: Yes. Because my daddy always worked. He did two or three different things, We were the first people in Irondale to have a telephone and we were on a four-party line and that was the best thing, we thought. Well, we got that when I was about 15. Like the radio, when Joe Louis would be fighting, people would be in our yard, because nobody else had a radio. So we opened up the door and turned the radio and everybody enjoyed the fights. BILLUPS: Yes, and see my daddy, by him working at the railroad, he worked at the (inaudible) company. And so, they had a commissary and we had the first television in Irondale. So everybody come and look at the TV. We had, you know how they have a square now, we had an oblong one. HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school? BILLUPS: After high school I taught kindergarten for about two years out in Ensley. There was a funeral home. They called it Patton' ; s Funeral Home. And, then in 1947, I met Charles and I had gotten a job at a meat factory. It was on 64th Street and First Avenue in Woodlawn. He was just coming out of WWII because he still had to go back because he was in the reserves. So, I went to apply for that job and I didn' ; t carry lunch money because I didn' ; t know I was going to get hired. I got hired that day. And so his mother always bought him hot lunches. HUNTLEY: He was already working there? BILLUPS: He was already working there and he saw me sitting in a corner without anything to eat and he shared his lunch with me. I met him, guess what? We started talking and in two weeks' ; time we decided, I guess, we were in love. We said we were going to marry June the 12th. We met in December and we married in January, two weeks after. HUNTLEY: You mean you were married a month after you met him? BILLUPS: After I met him. And when he came to my daddy and ask for me, which they don' ; t do now, they just go on and marry. And my daddy said, " ; Well, now okay. I' ; m going to tell you about her." ; He said, " ; You know she got four brothers that' ; s older and they' ; ve always taken care of her." ; My daddy told Charles, " ; She' ; s lazy, she don' ; t know how to cook, she can' ; t even boil water. But, if you want to marry her and you love my daughter, you can marry her." ; He said, " ; But I tell you one thing, if you ever get tired of her, if you don' ; t have a car, put her in a cab and send her to me and I' ; ll pay for her." ; Charles used to tell me, " ; Lady, Lord I wish I had sent you home in a cab to your daddy." ; HUNTLEY: How long were you married? BILLUPS: Before he died, we had been married 22 years. HUNTLEY: So you had a short engagement but a long marriage? BILLUPS: Yes. And we were married three years before the first child was born. Because at that time he went to Booker T. Washington Business College, he finished there. He used to work three jobs. He worked at Conner Steel. He worked four hours a night at Pizitz as a janitor and, then he was going to school. He was going on the GI Bill. He finished that and he finished an " ; A" ; student. Mr. Gaston just loved him. HUNTLEY: Where did you live? BILLUPS: At that time we was staying in Irondale. My mother had converted her home into an apartment and we stayed there. And, then, in the latter part of 1949, we bought a house at the airport. That' ; s the house we' ; re living in when all these old things were happening. HUNTLEY: Your husband was very active in the NAACP. Were you active in the NAACP? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about that. What kind of activities did you get involved in? BILLUPS: Now, I at the time I was with him, but my husband was always, wherever they went, especially Mr. Patton, Mr. Gwen and Mr. Shortridge, these three men were very instrumental in his life and... HUNTLEY: W. C. Patton? BILLUPS: W. C. Patton. And, you know, Mr. Shortridge, he' ; s dead. You know he had the Shortridge Funeral Home. HUNTLEY: So these three individuals had quite an impact on what he would actually be a part of? BILLUPS: Right. HUNTLEY: Were you registered voters at the time? BILLUPS: My husband went, you know, he would carry this long list of things. Every time he would go they would always foul up and he had to go about six times before he passed. You know they asked you who was a senator, how many, who was this, and what about Alabama and everything. But, he finally went because what he did in our house, he would bring back things that he would miss on that registration thing, well, he would tell other people about it. So, he said, " ; Now, you got to go." ; I wasn' ; t voting then. But, when I went they had, as a matter of fact, they was still paying poll tax when he started voting, but right after then, you know, they stopped that poll tax thing and that' ; s when I went and I passed it on the first try. HUNTLEY: He had educated you? BILLUPS: Right. HUNTLEY: And he would bring other people in? BILLUPS: Actually into the house. HUNTLEY: And help them to qualify for registration. BILLUPS: Right. Qualify. HUNTLEY: In June 1956 the State of Alabama outlawed the operation of the NAACP and as a result of that the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized. Were you and your husband involved in that? BILLUPS: Yes. He was very involved and we were too, because he was. Because when he would go to the meetings, sometime I might get mad because everything was going on and we had a lot of old white reporters and all these police and everything out there. And actually I was a little bit timid about it. You know, he could talk me into doing things. HUNTLEY: You were afraid to get involved, you said you were timid? BILLUPS: I wasn' ; t afraid I was really just a little bit timid. And, I didn' ; t, you know... HUNTLEY: About his involvement? BILLUPS: Yes. Because I was always so afraid that he was going to get hurt because he was very outspoken. HUNTLEY: How close, how well did you know Fred Shuttlesworth? BILLUPS: Very, very well. HUNTLEY: Were he and your husband very closely associated even prior to the organization of the Alabama Christian Movement? BILLUPS: Well, no. They were, it was really after the organization. They did everything together. You know, even though it may not ever be mentioned, you know when Shuttlesworth took the boys and Rev. Pfeiffer... HUNTLEY: To Phillips High School? BILLUPS: Yes, well, my husband was with them then. HUNTLEY: He was with them? BILLUPS: Yes, and my husband was also, you know when his home, the first time he was bombed, I was at work, but he had the girls in the car with him and do you know they went over there? HUNTLEY: They went to his house? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: This is in December of ' ; 56? BILLUPS: Yes, and don' ; t you know if I had known my children was out there, I would have left work and beat him up, I think. HUNTLEY: Now, I talked with your daughter also. She said there were times when they would take you to work and, then, he would say that he' ; s going to take the girls back home but the girls would not go back home, they would go to the meeting with him? BILLUPS: Right. HUNTLEY: When did you find out about that? BILLUPS: Oh, I guess about a year or so, they were doing that. And, one night, the baby, she was 4 and, then she turned 5. She said, " ; Momma, you know what? I saw my daddy coming in the house but he had his shoes off and he was backing through the door." ; And, after then, because he got beat up in ' ; 57. After all of that going, whatever he was doing, he would take me and the children. He would take me to work from 11 to 7. And he would take them down to the motel. Because that one in there one night was sleeping and the man next door had dogs and he had chains on them and the dogs had gotten loose. So they were going back and forth because my porch, we had a concrete porch, and she thought it was the Ku Klux Klan out there trying to get them. HUNTLEY: This is your daughter (inaudible)? BILLUPS: Yes. That one in there. And that' ; s when they got afraid to stay at home by themselves. And that' ; s why he would take them with him every night, you know. HUNTLEY: He would essentially take them with him so that they would not be afraid? BILLUPS: Yes. He would be in all night meetings and I thought the children would be at home in the bed and they would be down there with their daddy. HUNTLEY: So what was happening then, you were, in fact, working 11:00 at night to 7:00 in the morning? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And he would take you to work and, then, he was going to the meetings so he would have to carry his children with him and, then, they would do their homework or whatever they needed to do in the car? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And, you then, would eventually find out about it and what were your reactions when you found out? BILLUPS: Oh, I can' ; t even tell you. It was horrible at first, because I was not disgusted, I was afraid that something was going to happen to the children. And, see, in ' ; 57 was when my husband was beaten up. HUNTLEY: Was he working at Hayes? BILLUPS: Hayes Aircraft, yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me the circumstances of that? BILLUPS: Yes. They had the white bathroom and the Black bathroom, but the Black bathroom was always filled. And he said one night after about 11:30 he just got tired of waiting. So he went and took a bath in the bath house for the whites and for 3-4 days they didn' ; t do anything to him. But on about the 4th or 5th day, he was riding with one of our neighbors. They used to go back and forth to work on the 3 to 11. And, on the 4th night I sat up all night long because I said, because he had kind of a bad stomach and I used to sit up to keep the dinner kind of warm for him. But he never showed up and I couldn' ; t imagine what had happened. And, then, about 4:00 that morning Rev. Smith came. HUNTLEY: Was that N. H. Smith? BILLUPS: Yes, he was our pastor then. He said, " ; Alma Ree, we got to go. We got to go to the hospital." ; I said, " ; What' ; s wrong, what' ; s wrong?" ; He wouldn' ; t tell me. And, he started to give me Charles' ; coat that was in a brown bag, but he said, " ; No, you don' ; t need to see this." ; Because it was just a bloody mess, you know. And when I got over there they had him and he was bleeding so until they had to put a big cradle over him, they couldn' ; t let the sheet come down on him because it was, where they had beat him up, they took him. He said they took sticker briars in those wounds. They beat him with chains. He had to die with those chain marks on him. And Rev. Smith said, " ; We' ; ll just burn these clothes up." ; He stayed in the hospital two weeks. And every time I' ; d go, I' ; d just be so mad and everything. But he said, " ; Well, I' ; m going to pray for them." ; And he said that where they took him, you know where Eastwood Mall is, you know? That used to be all wooded area. They used to call it Hammons and 78 Highway. They took him off the job in his truck. Made him lay down in the truck. And when they got him so far this man, I won' ; t call his name, because he' ; s a well know southern preacher, they stayed three houses from me. He rode by my house and he did not tell me. HUNTLEY: Well, did they actually take him from the job? BILLUPS: They cut him out, they blocked, when he was coming from the job, they blocked the truck and took him out. HUNTLEY: Forcibly taken him out? BILLUPS: Forcibly took him out of this man' ; s truck. HUNTLEY: And, then the neighbor came on home and he never said anything to you? BILLUPS: He never said anything. He never said a word. But, anyway, my husband said he prayed and everything. HUNTLEY: Did you talk with him any time after that? BILLUPS: Yes, a lot of times. HUNTLEY: Did he ever say why he did not mention it to you? BILLUPS: Yes, my husband said he told him that they told him if he said anything they was going to kill him. But he never. Well, he had to ride right by my house, just three doors from me. HUNTLEY: So that obviously raised a questions? BILLUPS: Yes. Because he had to tell them what route that they was going to take. HUNTLEY: Were these men ever apprehended or prosecuted? BILLUPS: No. They weren' ; t. Because my husband say when they got through beating him up, they said that they were going to kill him because they were trying. Every time they said, " ; Where you get money, or what you do?" ; So he would say, " ; Mr. Gwen." ; They knew he was a Black man. They was trying to make him say Gwen or, you know, not call him mister. But my husband knew he was older so he always called him Mister. That' ; s one of the reason' ; s he got beat up as bad as he did, because he wouldn' ; t stop saying Mister. HUNTLEY: This is a Black man that he' ; s saying Mr. to? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: In that culture it was not acceptable as far as whites were concerned. So he was beaten even more so for referring to Mr. Gwen as Mister. BILLUPS: Yes, and so, they got together, they whispered they wanted to kill him. But somebody, my husband was a mason and he had his ring on. And he said they had him tied to a tree and everything when one of them happen to get that finger. He believes that' ; s one of the reasons he believe they didn' ; t kill him. Because when they felt that ring, he said they got together, " ; We ain' ; t going to kill this nigger, just leave him up here." ; They untied him and they got in their cars and they left. He had to crawl back to 78 Highway out of those woods. When he got down there, two police cars from the city was sitting there. HUNTLEY: This is out near the place where he was beaten? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: How did you know to go out there? BILLUPS: No. They took him to the hospital. In other words, what I was saying, I believe that they knew they were up there. They had to hear him hollering. They were sitting there when he crawled down the road, they just picked him up and said, " ; Nigger, some more niggers just beat you up. You better not say no white people beat you up." ; HUNTLEY: So the police then took him to the hospital? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And then you and Rev. Smith went to the hospital? BILLUPS: Right. HUNTLEY: And he was hospitalized for two weeks? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Now, as a wife were you upset with the men that had beat him up, or were you upset with your husband for being involved, or what were your feelings? BILLUPS: I was hating the white people. No. I wasn' ; t upset with my husband, but I was fully angry and hating, full of hate for the white man. And, after he went to the hospital, the Movement, you know they sent people out to stand guard around the house for me and the children, but we couldn' ; t sleep. And, when he got home he told them to just go on and said the Lord was going to take care of us. But you know, while he was in the hospital they called and told me, " ; When that nigger get out of the hospital, you all best to be out of Alabama by 5:00 or we going to come back and bomb all of y' ; all." ; So, through those years, we got several bomb threats. And every time my daddy always kept, it was a little old cab company in Irondale. And daddy always kept it handy because it might be trouble and I would have to uproot myself and my children. HUNTLEY: Did you ever have to do that? Did you have to leave home as a result of threats? BILLUPS: Yes. Because I was scared. And the neighbors would say, " ; Those Billups going to get us bombed, they going to get us killed." ; HUNTLEY: So the neighbors then were not supportive? BILLUPS: Not at all. They ostracized us. HUNTLEY: So you were more or less isolated? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Well, what about the people from the Movement? Were they supportive? BILLUPS: Yes. They were. They were. I' ; m telling you now they were, but it was so nerve-racking for men to be standing around the house and you thinking that if they left they was going to get you anyway. So Charles just kind of dismissed them. Told them that' ; s all right. HUNTLEY: Well, I' ; m sure that on your job, what occupation did you have? BILLUPS: I' ; m a Licensed Practical Nurse. HUNTLEY: You' ; re an LPN. And where did you work? BILLUPS: University. HUNTLEY: Was that where he was taken when he was beaten? BILLUPS: Yes, but I wasn' ; t working there at the time. But that' ; s where he was taken. HUNTLEY: Do you remember any incidences that may have taken place that resulted from your simply being the wife of Rev. Billups? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me about them? BILLUPS: I had a supervisor, named Joyce Hilder. She hated, you know. HUNTLEY: This is a white supervisor? BILLUPS: That was my white supervisor. And I guess she kept up with all news clippings and everything. Because I was watched wherever, you know, anytime. And, like when time for promotion or anything, I didn' ; t get... HUNTLEY: Where was this? Where were you working? BILLUPS: This was University, in the nursery. I worked in University Hospital in the nursery. And I know she made, like you know, you could be charge nurse up on your shift, and there would be people there, I would have to help them be in charge, but she wouldn' ; t name me that, because it would make me have a bigger salary or something like that, but I outgrew that. But the main thing is that the resentment that the doctors gave us. They would come along, you know like when you, at that time, you know I wasn' ; t an RN, I was a licensed. You couldn' ; t get into that until you was about 35. But there was a shortage of nurses. You know they opened up that program and they sent you to Montgomery with the State Board and you passed. But, they would call, say one of the University of Alabama student nurses, Mrs., Miss but we were always " ; Nurse this" ; or " ; Girl" ; and they were gals for some of them. HUNTLEY: So they referred to white as Miss or Mrs? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And referred to Blacks as " ; Nurse" ; ? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: I' ; m very familiar with that. My mother is an LPN also. On your job, as you worked and Rev. Billups was very active, did you ever lose a job or were you ever threatened with loss of job as a result of his activity? BILLUPS: I' ; ve never lost a job. But I was threatened with misusing sick time. Being absent, or being late. Because some nights Charles and them, they would be so involved in the meeting, I was supposed to be at work at 11:00. They watched my time clock. Sometime I' ; d hit at 11:30. Sometimes ten minutes after. But everyone of those times, and you know if you got as many as 3 to 4 you know, you was called to the office about tardiness. If you called in, you had sick time but you couldn' ; t take it. A lot of times I didn' ; t have a friend that I could leave the baby with, I had to call in sick but you couldn' ; t take it because you was threatened with your job. And, a lot of times I would be sitting up waiting on him to come and take me to work 11 to 7. I wasn' ; t driving then. And here somebody out and blowing, come to the door, " ; Mrs. Billups, your husband told us to come bring you to work." ; I' ; d get in the car cursing. Excuse the language. I would be so angry. And they would just laugh at me. Let me tell you this little incident, and, then, I' ; m going to let you have it, because I' ; ll talk you to death. One time, I was getting ready to go to work. And Charles had got somebody to take me and, then, just before I left, here he come. And I know you know James Bevel, and there were two white persons that was in the Movement, you know how they were, with the Freedom Riders. And there was a Englishman that was a minister, he was white too. I called in. I took all of my linen, took all the towels, I took everything. I was mad with Charles because I hated white people. I took everything out of my house I thought that he could use. Called a cab and went to my daddy. And, that minister he said, " ; I understand what you' ; re going through." ; Because he knew that my husband had been in the Movement. And do you know for several years, until he lost contact, he used to write me. He said, " ; I can understand because the things that you went through, the way he treated you." ; You know what they did, they laughed at me and they slept on paper. HUNTLEY: Is that right? So you were determined that you were not going to assist any white person? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you were not going to be cooperative at that point? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And that was based upon what had taken place in your life prior to then? BILLUPS: Yes. Let me tell you this one incident. You know, at that time, we were going to, we had missions from house to house. And I was down to one of the neighbors at a mission. And they said my husband was at some meeting or something, something had happened. They said he placed his hand on a policeman, they came to arrest him. And when they got there he was there with the children. And, my daughter, the middle daughter, she always (inaudible) " ; Momma, if they throw my daddy up against that paddy wagon, or if they do something to my daddy, I' ; m going to scratch them." ; And they came in to arrest him, some minor thing. And she grabbed one of them by the leg and went to work on his legs. HUNTLEY: How old was she at the time? BILLUPS: She was six. But do you know what? (inaudible). She was fighting for her daddy. And they was going, they took him on to jail, but they gave the neighbors chance to come down to the other neighbors house and get me. Because see the neighbors (inaudible) and Charlotte was three years older than them (inaudible). HUNTLEY: What was the most difficult thing you had to endure as a result of being the wife of Rev. Billups? BILLUPS: Because we were (inaudible) and we was in the process of remodeling our house. And we had tried several banks for a loan but when they looked his record up, they would not, I mean our house was in the very process. I mean the windows, everything was out. HUNTLEY: You mean the, this is as a result of a bombing? BILLUPS: No, no, no. He was remodeling the house, making it larger. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. BILLUPS: The contractors were working and they had assured him that he could get a loan, you know what I' ; m saying. And we had to put plastic, we had a great big bay window in the front. That window stayed plastic up, all the winter and I had to go to my mothers (inaudible) because when they found out he was civil rights and got his picture and everything, everybody refused to give him a loan. Everything. You know who was instrumental in helping us in getting that job completed, was Virgil Harris, you know of Protective Industrial Insurance. At that time my job was stable, and he let us have enough money to complete that house. HUNTLEY: So banks would not loan you the money because of the activity he was involved in? BILLUPS: Because of his activity. Even then, at that time, of course we were going to Chicago then. He had put in for a position for a postman. He passed the test. He did everything. He didn' ; t fight it. Because when it came back they said he had too many jail arrests. He had been arrested 23 times. HUNTLEY: So he passed the test? BILLUPS: He passed the test. HUNTLEY: But they would not allow him because of activity in the Movement? BILLUPS: No. HUNTLEY: So these are difficult situations that you had to endure as a result of your involvement? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: I know that as a wife of a very active individual like that, there were probably times when you said that you wished that he was not involved in the Movement? BILLUPS: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: How often did you feel that way? Did you tell him that? BILLUPS: Yes. Sometimes I would. And, sometimes I would leave him. I would leave him. But look, and, then, I was, because you see, I was my daddy' ; s baby. And, a lot of times when things got screwed up, you know the telephone being bugged or something like that and we didn' ; t even know. The man would come in and say, " ; We came in to fix your phone." ; We were so naive. We did not know they would be on the line and everything. Sometime the telephone started ringing and ring for hours and hours. You' ; d pick it up and it was still ringing. So, at times like that I would get angry and I would go to my daddy' ; s. And my daddy and I would talk about Charles and I' ; d say, " ; Daddy." ; And he' ; d say, " ; Oh, yes. You can come to me anytime." ; My mother said, " ; You best to go back home to your husband." ; But, uh, those were just times that I would, you know, I miss him. I love him. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the demonstrations of 1963? When Dr. King was here and they eventually got children involved? They demonstrated several days consistently. BILLUPS: That I remember because Bevel and Charles was the ones that mostly would be going to the schools to get the children out. But he wouldn' ; t let Charlotte join. Of course, Charlotte was just like he used to be at one time, in that would fight. She would say, " ; Now, daddy will do the marching for you." ; Because Charlotte, my daughter, has never been a calm person. And he felt like if anybody hit her or she was going to hit them back. And that' ; s what they were teaching, non-violence, you know. And he didn' ; t believe she could be non-violent. And, but, now I' ; ll tell you, the one that has hurt the most was my daughter Renee. And she went everywhere with him. When they was marching to the courthouse. HUNTLEY: She did march? BILLUPS: Yes, she did. HUNTLEY: Was she ever arrested? BILLUPS: No, she was never arrested. And, you know when they were marching from New Pilgrim to the city jail and when they got so far, Bull Conner came out with his dogs, you know and things like that, they was going to get them. And, my husband was the one that said, let' ; s pray. And, when they knelt down and prayed, Bull didn' ; t put the water on them. Now, before, I had a bad fire in my house, I could show you a picture where my husband got bit by the dogs. They stripped his shirt. HUNTLEY: You have a picture of it? BILLUPS: It got burned. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of the demonstrations? BILLUPS: Well, no I never. Yes. Well, I wasn' ; t really in the demonstrations, but you know when they went going back across to Selma. Okay. You remember Brown Memorial or Brown Methodist, one of them. He took me and the children. He said, " ; Come on, baby and go on with me." ; I said, " ; No, I' ; m going to stay out here with my children." ; Didn' ; t know I was standing out there in trouble. And they were in that church and they were packed. I mean just packed. He tried his best. I said, " ; No, I' ; m going to sit out here with the babies." ; And do you know that while we was sitting in the car, looked around and see all these white people clad in these sheets and I seen the Ku Klux was out there. And I had to ease Charlotte into the church to tell them that the Ku Klux Klan was walking back and forth. You see, I should have went on in the church with them. Oh, Lord, I could tell you so much. But it' ; s just no need to just keep talking. But they had to come out and get us. They were out there and they was talking about " ; We going to kill them niggers." ; I said, " ; Oh, Charlotte." ; I laid the babies down on the seat. " ; Go on and ease in there and tell your daddy the Ku Klux out here." ; HUNTLEY: So you sent her? BILLUPS: I sent her in the church. HUNTLEY: I know that during that ' ; 63 demonstration you were very active and after that, Rev. Billups then, I guess then he was sent to Chicago with Dr. Martin Luther King? BILLUPS: Yes, well, Dr. King went there. And my husband went because he said the girls were growing up. And you know, because I had been working for two and a half years and my husband hadn' ; t worked anywhere because he was either with the Movement or he couldn' ; t get work. And he said, " ; I' ; m going to let you sit down." ; We went to Chicago actually, we was still working, he was. But, actually he went to find a better job. HUNTLEY: He went to find a better job, but he happened to have been there when Martin Luther King came. BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And, then, he became involved in Operation Breadbasket. BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Operation Breadbasket? BILLUPS: Operation Breadbasket and everything. Now, I' ; ll tell you what I did do. I went to the March on Washington and, then I went, you know when they had the Resurrection City, I went to that. But, we got private planes and I got some pictures in there somewhere. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the March on Washington? BILLUPS: It was a glorious time. To be there at the Lincoln Memorial and to hear that exhilarating speech that was something else. And that' ; s when I really and truly, really, I was for everything then. Back then my life just got happier then. HUNTLEY: Let me back up just a bit. During the time that the Movement was meeting, did you attend any of the mass meetings? BILLUPS: Yes. Are you talking about the Alabama Christian Movement? HUNTLEY: Yes. BILLUPS: Oh, my goodness, every Monday night when I wasn' ; t working. HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what a mass meeting was like? BILLUPS: ...either with the Movement or he couldn' ; t get work. And he said, I' ; m going to let you sit down. We went to Chicago and actually, we were still working, he was, but actually he went to find a better job. HUNTLEY: He went to find a better job, but he happened to have been there when Dr. Martin Luther King came and, then, he became involved. BILLUPS: Yes, and that Operation Breadbasket and everything. Now, I' ; ll tell you what I did do. I went to the March on Washington. And, then, I went, you know when they had the (inaudible), I went to that. You know, groups, we got private plans and we flew there. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the March on Washington? BILLUPS: It was a glorious time. To be there (inaudible). To be there at the Lincoln Memorial and to hear that exhilarating speech that was something else. And that' ; s when I really and truly, you know, really, I was for everything then. Back then my life just got happier then. HUNTLEY: Let me back up just a bit. During the time that the Movement was meeting, did you attend any of the mass meetings? BILLUPS: Yes. Are you talking about the Alabama Christian Movement? HUNTLEY: Yes. BILLUPS: Oh, my goodness, every Monday night when I wasn' ; t working. HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what a mass meeting was like? BILLUPS: Yes. There were lots of singing, lots of oratorical speeches, lot of reporters, lots of police and lots of our speakers. Happy times and, then, Dr. King would come then and make a speech after Shuttlesworth and others invited him into Birmingham. Yes, I enjoyed that. That was a rallying time. HUNTLEY: Someone told me that being at a mass meeting was like being at a revival. BILLUPS: It was like being at a revival. And, then, when you get on the outside, here' ; s all these folks standing out there. One day, because I vividly remember one night, Charles, the children and I were coming out. Charles, you know, they used to let some of the men out of the movement would stand on the outside to try to keep watch. And the policeman was coming in and some kind of way, accidently, Charles brushed against him or something and they brought the paddy wagon right there to the meeting and threw him up against the paddy wagon. That was about the third time they had seen him thrown against the paddy wagon. That' ; s the reason why she always said she was going to kill the police. Because they would throw him against that paddy wagon and pat him down and throw him up in the truck. One time, he was coming to take me to work and they took down...you know how these signs, you know, where you' ; re supposed to stop at a crossing. And, what they did, they took it down. They knew what time he was going to come. They waited on him, they picked at him every night. They somehow or another knocked that sign down and he ran through it. HUNTLEY: The sign was not up? BILLUPS: No. You know it was kind of like those signs up in front of my house. You know like " ; yield?" ; HUNTLEY: Right. BILLUPS: They were thrown down so my husband would go through it and that' ; s the way they would be. HUNTLEY: What would they do? Were you ever with him? BILLUPS: No, I never was, because they never let him get home. They' ; d stop him, keep him down there about two hours and that would throw me two hours late and I' ; d have to call one of the neighbors or call my daddy to come and carry me to work. And there have been times, like when the Sixteenth Street bombing and my husband was there. At that particular time I was assigned to the fourth floor. They followed me down, because the supervisor or somebody, see my co-workers would tell the supervisors. I mean, even if we got a car, they would get us. But anyway, she came on my floor and she said, " ; I heard your nigger husband was down in the emergency room. But you better not go off this floor." ; HUNTLEY: This is your supervisor? BILLUPS: My supervisor, Joyce Hilder. And, here my co-workers looking at me, a little bit of scorn. HUNTLEY: It' ; s difficult even to imagine. BILLUPS: She said my " ; nigger husband" ; so I' ; m sure those are not your views. HUNTLEY: What was your reaction? BILLUPS: You really want to know? HUNTLEY: Yes. BILLUPS: Would you really want to know? HUNTLEY: I really want to know. BILLUPS: I wish I had a knife or some scissors or something stuck in her back. But I know better now. You know what, when they would, walk around so solemn and they couldn' ; t figure me out. I never talked about my husband. I never, nothing he was doing or anything. Everything they read, they read in the paper or either they heard it over the radio, Channel 6. I don' ; t know whether you could remember, you might be too young. There was an old reporter named Davenport Smith. And, every time my husband was arrested he blared it out on the news. Charles Billups. HUNTLEY: So then, when you went to Chicago, did you still work as a nurse? BILLUPS: Yes. I worked for a while, because Charles told me to sit down. For two years I sat down. But I had just gotten a job at St. Luke' ; s to work and I had worked there about two months before he died. HUNTLEY: And what kind of work did he do? BILLUPS: My husband? Oh, yes. He worked at a chain of stores they called National Tea Company. And they had a chain of stores all over Illinois, Wisconsin and Iowa. And, they made him, because the man that owned these stores was a multimillionaire. And, he only finished the eighth grade. He was a self-made millionaire, and that' ; s why he fell in love with Charles, because he wanted to do something. He told my husband, he said that when his son finished college, he tried to put him in Harvard University, but because he hadn' ; t graduated and wasn' ; t a member or nothing, he couldn' ; t. And, he' ; s a multimillionaire. He couldn' ; t get his son there. So he made, Charles worked there for about six months, and, then he made him Director of Human Relations. And, that' ; s where he was working when he died. And everybody at the company hated him. HUNTLEY: Why? BILLUPS: Because he moved up too fast. And, even the people that (inaudible) I mean, our own Black people, they gave...Mr. (inaudible) gave Charles a watch, a gold watch with his name printed on it. I never went to those meetings at night. But Rene always went with her daddy. She was always afraid something was going to happen to him. He had his own office, everything. But, she went to one particular meeting and he got up and was talking, they were going to transfer some stores up to West side you know that' ; s where (inaudible). And, I will not call the name. HUNTLEY: You mean your husband got up to talk at a Breadbasket meeting? BILLUPS: Right. HUNTLEY: About the movement or putting some stores on the west side... BILLUPS: Because the stores, there were like Brunos and Food Fair. You know Bruno' ; s moved all their dated, old dated stuff in these stores in the Black neighborhoods and that' ; s what they would be doing. They had given him this gold watch because he had done so well for two years. One of the head Black people in Operation Breadbasket, when he was showing him the watch, because you see my husband was a poor man and he wasn' ; t really used to a lot of stuff, you know. And he was showing him his watch with his name on it. My daughter said they took that watch in that meeting, and this Black man, well known, took his foot. HUNTLEY: Who was that person? BILLUPS: I won' ; t call his name. Took his foot and slammed it down. And Renee jumped up. He said, " ; Baby, you going to get us killed. We got to get out of here." ; A well-known Black man. Because if I call his name you' ; ll know, and I don' ; t want to do that. HUNTLEY: So your husband actually had the watch in his hand? BILLUPS: Oh, just had it, he had just gotten it that day. HUNTLEY: And he took it and put it on the floor and... BILLUPS: Yes. And took his foot. HUNTLEY: What was the reason for him doing that? BILLUPS: Because they said that because he was making money and saying he was not working for Black people anymore, he was working for the white man and stuff like that. HUNTLEY: So your husband actually became involved with Dr. King when he came to Chicago and convinced the Movement to go into Cicero? BILLUPS: Yes. He went to Cicero, got his hand broke. He said, " ; Baby, they beat our butts in Cicero." ; He got his hand broke. They throwed a brick. He caught it. That hand stayed in a cast about six to nine weeks. He said, " ; They beat us in Cicero." ; Of course, I wasn' ; t with them there in Cicero, I was at home with the children. HUNTLEY: So your husband, after he moved to Chicago, he became again well known as a result of his activity there? BILLUPS: Right. HUNTLEY: But he also had a job and he was well known on the job? BILLUPS: Right. HUNTLEY: He was liked on the job by the owner of the company, but he was disliked by the.. BILLUPS: By the people, whites and Blacks that were working there. HUNTLEY: Because he had moved up in the company rather fast? BILLUPS: Right. HUNTLEY: And, then, what happened? BILLUPS: He had an expense account and he could do anything with that money that he wanted. The fact is we bought cars, Charles didn' ; t know how to fix cars, so we bought cars every year. I mean he ordered a car every year in October. And, the last car we bought was in, that car was five years old when he died. And, when he parked the car, he had his own parking space there, because he had his own office. And, it just so happened that one of the men, and he was a Jew. One of the men, he didn' ; t know this man' ; s car. He didn' ; t know he had a car. When he parked his car, now the other employees told him, you know that man' ; s stealing your car. HUNTLEY: The Jewish man. BILLUPS: Yes. Yes. HUNTLEY: Well, how did your husband die? BILLUPS: Well, we don' ; t know. He was shot, but I don' ; t know. HUNTLEY: He was shot? BILLUPS: No details. The police say they couldn' ; t find anything. BILLUPS: He was coming from work. HUNTLEY: He was shot? BILLUPS: Yes. He was shot. HUNTLEY: Where was he found? BILLUPS: He was found in his car. All identification and everything was taken off him. No identification. The only way they found me is that they went under the hood and found that he had bought his car at Hyde Park Chevrolet and, they went from the motor number. And, the children were just coming in from school. When they did the autopsy they said it looks like whenever he was shot, it was right after he had had lunch. Because he had had in his stomach, something like a hamburger, Coca Cola. And, you know, your food digests. It takes about 4-6 hours for your food to digest. So his food hadn' ; t even digested. They believe maybe that he was shot on company property and put in this particular place. But they never, they came, the detectives. Some Black detective that got to be a real good friend of mine, he come and look all over the house because he said " ; You know when I told you I want to see all of your books and encyclopedias?" ; He said, " ; Do you know what I was looking for?" ; He said, " ; I was looking for some blood." ; He said, " ; Because you and your daughter killed him." ; HUNTLEY: He had suggested that you and your daughter had... BILLUPS: Me and my daughter had killed him. And look, neither one of us, all of us started to driving after my husband was dead. None of us could even drive a car. HUNTLEY: So then it appeared that someone had robbed him? BILLUPS: Yes. They took everything off him. We had just left Birmingham. We had a sticker from the New Pilgrim credit union, and he had drawn out all of his money from the credit union. And he had my income tax check, mine and his together. And, he had Charlotte' ; s because Charlotte was working. Three checks on him. They did not, they have not ever. I had to go to the morgue to identify the body. And they had an inquest and they claimed they couldn' ; t find no glasses, no shoes, no socks. There was no blood in the car. HUNTLEY: But he had been shot? And there was no blood in the car? BILLUPS: He had been shot five times in the chest and the bullets, two or three came through his back. They turned him over, back and forth to let me look at him. Rev. Evans, that' ; s another one that I would like to include. Rev. Clay Evans was our pastor and he' ; s the one that took care of us, because we were there for about another year. HUNTLEY: You said he didn' ; t have on shoes or socks? BILLUPS: He had on his socks and, of course they had to take him to the hospital to do the autopsy. He had nothing but his socks. HUNTLEY: That' ; s obviously a very devastating story. If you would look back, in the days that you were in Birmingham and if you had the potential of changing what took place, say between the time that you were married and 1963, what would you change? BILLUPS: The big thing is the education of young people. Taking them higher. Reap some of the benefits that these men suffered for. Men and women. I wish things like that. More religious, more getting together by Black people. Because, you know, we are still far apart. And do you realize now, my husband never got a chance to see any one of his grandchildren. I have a grandson that' ; s 17, I have a grandson that' ; s 15. I have a granddaughter that' ; s 16. And, I have another granddaughter that goes to the University of Alabama that' ; s 25. She' ; s been to Venezuela and she works at Books-A-Million and goes to school and she' ; s got three more months and she would have finished. She speaks Latin, very well. And, I had wanted her to be here today but she had to work. I wanted her to be here because she' ; s in Black history studies. That' ; s one of her main things. HUNTLEY: Where is she in school? BILLUPS: At the University of Alabama. She says she wants to go to Florida A& ; M to get her masters if she can, because she wants to get more Black stuff. She' ; s always interviewing me and I' ; m going to take her back to the old town soon. That' ; s what she' ; s into. HUNTLEY: Then, would you, if you could, would you limit your husband' ; s involvement if you could go back in time? BILLUPS: Not a thing. I wouldn' ; t change nothing. I' ; m just as proud of him as I can be. Even though there were times when I wished I had a stick to beat him,(laughter...), but my husband was a hustler. My husband one time talked Adamson Ford out of a brand new car and didn' ; t even have a job. Came home shaking the keys. HUNTLEY: Is that right? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: I see you' ; re very proud of him. Let me ask you. Anything else that we have not touched on that you would like to include on this tape that' ; s related to the Movement or to your family? BILLUPS: Well, to my family, to my mother and father who were very supportive. They loved my husband and they are gone on, and they' ; re a memory. And the same year that my husband died, my mother, my father died the next year, one month apart. My brother died the next year. For five years I was going to Davenport & ; Harris getting people ready. I just hope that wherever he is, his spirit, that he can look down and see his grandchildren and even look down at me, even with my back, my 70 year old self and he' ; ll just look back and see that we are happy. If there was anything I could change, yes, maybe I could change the way people used to look on him, because they called him millionnaire, ugly, (inaudible) at the mouth. If I could change some of that. I have seen him cry. I have seen him happy. And, for awhile he was going on this thing about his father. He didn' ; t know who his father was. He had a bad childhood. And there was a minister that his mother used to quote, a Rev. Robert Alford. He' ; s dead now. He used to pastor old Sardis. And she told him that was his father and he got in a group of boys. He was about 10 or 11 years and he asked Robert Alford was he his daddy? He said, " ; Yes, son, I' ; m your father." ; And that made him feel good. But one of his main things, he had a (inaudible) biggest people, every place he was kind of scorned. And he was just beginning. When our first baby was born and to me she was the ugliest thing that you could see. She was so ugly, he bought five outfits to the hospital. He said, " ; Now, whichever one she look the best in." ; He was just that proud of his children. I wish they could have seen their grandfather. HUNTLEY: Well, I' ; m sure that all of them are very proud of you. BILLUPS: I tell you what. It' ; s been a struggle. I have tried to hold on. My husband left me in a house, I never stayed in an apartment or project. He always had a house for me. And I been struggling around and (inaudible) if I live long enough, I will at least be able to leave this house, paid for, to my children. HUNTLEY: Well, you have been a strength. Not just for your children and family but for a lot of people in the community. So I would just like to thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to sit with us today. BILLUPS: Thank you for listening to me. You know what? When this thing first started, it hurt me so bad because they never asked me (inaudible). But nobody at the Institute or anywhere else has ever asked me about my feelings. So I appreciate you coming. HUNTLEY: Well, thank you for having me. BILLUPS: I hope I have something good. HUNTLEY: You have said an awful lot. BILLUPS: But, now let me just end this by saying, " ; Wherever you are, Charles, I love you. Whatever may have gone on, whatever anybody has ever said, whatever, I love you. I still love you." ; I never married. I could have married. I never married. I don' ; t think I could have found anybody else. I didn' ; t want to marry. I had my children. I took care of them. And, I have a daughter in North Carolina and I got one that lives in Bush Blvd and this daughter that is ill and stays with me. HUNTLEY: History will look at you as being one of those heroines of Birmingham, because all that you' ; ve endured, you and your family have endured an awful lot, and we as a community appreciate what you' ; ve done for all of us. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ABillups1995.xml ABillups1995.xml
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Almarie Billups
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Almarie Billups discusses being deeply involved in the Movement with her husband, Charles Billups. She worked hard balancing supporting her family and supporting the Movement.
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19950628B
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Billups, Charles
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1995-06-28
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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Ameila Boynton Robinson
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5.3 November 19, 1995 Amelia Boynton Robinson Interviewed on November 19, 2005 20051119B 0:37:44 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Emily Reynolds Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham United States. Department of Agriculture--Officials and employees Selma (Ala.) Voter registration Ameila Boynton Robinson Horace Huntley Video 1:|25(10)|32(4)|42(11)|67(3)|74(11)|83(8)|91(10)|103(11)|115(4)|128(6)|143(1)|157(13)|167(7)|175(3)|181(12)|191(7)|201(13)|210(10)|216(16)|227(13)|236(10)|247(12)|255(5)|269(8)|288(7)|298(6)|305(6)|319(3)|328(13)|339(3)|350(10)|359(10)|369(14)|379(1)|389(8)|400(2)|411(4) 0 https://youtu.be/sD_TY6_mkKo YouTube video English 0 Interview Introduction I was looking forward to this day that I might come here, and the pleasure is all mine. Introduction statements with Amelia Boynton Robinson. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 15 Family and Childhood Were you born in Alabama? Robinson discusses her parents and early upbringing. African American families ; African Americans--Education ; African Americans--Southern States African American families 215 Early Civil Rights Work and Government Work You of course are most noted for your activity in Selma, but you are obviously pretty active even before Selma and voting rights and property ownership. Can you talk just a bit about that? Robinson discusses her job with the U.S. Department of Agriculture and her efforts in voter registration. African Americans--Civil rights ; African Americans--Southern States ; Agriculture--United States ; Civil rights movement ; Voter registration--United States African Americans--Politics and government 732 Bloody Sunday Demonstration Tell me about Bloody Sunday. Robinson describes her experience in the Bloody Sunday demonstration. African Americans--Civil rights ; African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Civil rights movement ; Police brutality--United States ; Selma (Ala.) African Americans--Civil rights 1307 Voter Registration Efforts & ; Meeting Spouse So all of these things made me more determined to carry out what we started. Robinson describes her continued work for civil rights and meeting her spouse. African American families ; African Americans--Politics and government ; Schiller Institute (Washington, D.C.) ; Voter registration--United States African Americans--Civil rights 1877 Schiller Institute and LaRouche Youth Movement Now I like to travel. And he said, " ; let's go to New York to the Shriner's meeting." ; Now he wasn't a Shriner. And I said, " ; Okay." ; So we went to the Shriner's meeting and we couldn't get in the Shriner's meeting, but we were looking at the displays of the various components. Robinson discusses her work with the Schiller Institute and the LaRouche Youth Movement. Schiller Institute (Washington, D.C.) African Americans--Politics and government 2159 Interview Conclusion Well, Mrs. Robinson I want to thank you for taking your time. I could sit here and talk with you and listen to you for hours on hours. The interview concludes as Robinson describes her upcoming work and book tour. African American authors Oral History Amelia Boynton Robinson discusses how her activism began while working as a Home Demonstration Agent in Dallas County. She gives a detailed account of Bloody Sunday. HUNTLEY: Test one, two, three. Test one, two, three. Test one, two, three. Test one, two, three. Test one, two, three. Test four, five, six. Test, four, five, six. Test four, five, six. Test four, five, six. Test four, five, six. HUNTLEY: With us today [inaudible 00:01:24] ROBINSON: And I [inaudible 00:01:35] I was looking forward to this day that I may come here. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. ROBINSON: The pleasure is all mine. HUNTLEY: Thank you. Thank you. Just want to get a few tidbits today. Let me just ask you, were you born in Alabama? ROBINSON: No, I was born in Savannah, Georgia. And my mother and father, Mr. and Mrs. George Platts lived there and had 10 children and I happened to be the seventh of the ten. HUNTLEY: And how much education that your parents have? ROBINSON: Frankly speaking, my father went as far as the third grade, but he was one of the greatest mathematicians that you could find anywhere. He even stunted the people who he had... he actually tested them because he was a contractor. They called them builders in those days. And he also had a wholesale and retail wood yard. And he would have to go out and find the number of trees that he wanted and have them cut and brought to, well in the form of cord wood. And he had a daughter going to Georgia state college and he told her, " ; Now I... how many cords of wood can I get out of a tree that is 75 feet?" ; I' ; m just taking these figures. " ; 75 feet tall, maybe 33 feet in diameter and 20 feet in circumference. How many cords of wood can I get out of it?" ; And he gave her a chance to figure it out. She took it to school and then she asked the teacher, " ; Is this right?" ; And the teacher said yes and brought it back. My father said, " ; No, that' ; s not right. What you do..." ; And again, I' ; m just using figures. " ; What you do, you multiply the height by the circumference by such and such a thing and divided by the height or by the diameter and you get the number of cords that you' ; re supposed to get out of it." ; ROBINSON: He was a genius. And my mother, both of them came from South Carolina, different parts. My father from Sumter, my mother from Buford, South Carolina, and she went to school as high as the 10th grade. HUNTLEY: And so did you grow up in Savannah? ROBINSON: Yes. I grew up in Savannah. I attended the public schools there. I went to Georgia state college and I graduated from Tuskegee at that time, Tuskegee Institute. HUNTLEY: Well my wife graduated from Tuskegee. ROBINSON: Is that so? HUNTLEY: My daughter graduated from Tuskegee. ROBINSON: Wonderful. HUNTLEY: I have sown a lot of money to Tuskegee. ROBINSON: That' ; s the pride of the [inaudible 00:05:10] south. HUNTLEY: Absolutely. You of course most noted for your activity in Selma, but you are obviously pretty active even before Selma and voting rights and property ownership. Can you talk just a bit about that? ROBINSON: Well, first I came out of a family that was... my mother was an activist. She was a civil rights activist before the name came in and 1920 or 21, when women were given the right to vote, she had a horse and buggy, and she would take with her. We would go from one house to the other. She would get the women out and take them down to the registration office. And when it was time to vote, she would take them there. And she was very active in civil rights before we knew anything about it. When I graduated from Tuskegee, I was given a position, employed by the United States Department of Agriculture. And I worked with the people on the farm as a home demonstration agent, and the people were just a cut above slavery. So my work was cut out for me there, and I married a man who was a County agent and we had to, in fact, we got the people off of the farm, which of course cause us to be looked upon as disturbing that way of life. And we had charge of the 4-H club and the adult clubs. ROBINSON: Then we told them that you' ; re not really a first class citizen until you become a registered voter. And for 30 years before the mass ruining of the civil rights struggle that we had, we worked almost single handedly to get the people where they could register. And of course they did, they were 80 somewhat registered voters when we went to Selma and I ran for Congress. And during that time in 1964, before Dr. King came into Selma, there were around 1035 registered voters and the whole district of eight counties. The whites had... they were eight. Yes, a thousand somehow, the whites had 100,000 some odd registered voters. And I got some 10.7% of the votes ever cast, which meant I got votes from the whites as well as the blacks. HUNTLEY: So when you initially was the home demonstration agent for the agriculture department, were you initially assigned to Dallas County? ROBINSON: Yes, Selma is a county seat of Dallas County. HUNTLEY: So you became then, you and your husband then became outside agitators I' ; m sure. ROBINSON: Definitely so, that' ; s mildly saying it because if you were born in the South and if you have heard your forefathers or people in your family who lived on the farm, they can tell you some stories that would make your blood curdle almost of the treatment of the people on the plantations. And so we worked with people on plantations because most of the people in Dallas County lived on the plantations. And the plantation owners in most cases are those who were descendants of the slave owners, and of course they tried to treat them the same way that their forefathers treated the slaves. HUNTLEY: How did you get this job as home demonstration agent? ROBINSON: You know that' ; s something that makes me realize the importance of young people trying to walk a straight line. There was a home demonstration agent, no she was the state demonstration agent in Savannah, Georgia, she married a man who was the state agent in Alabama- HUNTLEY: Were they black? ROBINSON: Yes, and I saw her only once during the years I was at Tuskegee. Then when they needed agents in Alabama, her husband said, " ; Now we' ; ve got a tough county here and it' ; s hard to keep an agent and I don' ; t have anybody to send there." ; At that time I had graduated from Tuskegee and I was teaching at Americas Institute just a year after I had graduated and she said- HUNTLEY: America' ; s Georgia? ROBINSON: America' ; s Georgia yes... and his wife, who was the state agent when I was a 4-H club girl in Savannah, Georgia said, " ; You know, I' ; ve been watching a little girl from Savannah and I have been keeping up with her and I think she would make a good home demonstration agent." ; Now I' ; m thinking how the youth go about, and they don' ; t realize people are watching them. And from the statement that she made, I became the home demonstration agent. HUNTLEY: What were the responsibilities of a home demonstration agent? What did you do? ROBINSON: What were the possibilities? HUNTLEY: The position, what kind of work did you do? ROBINSON: Oh, I worked in the homes, teaching people scientifically how to prepare their foods, how to take care of their babies, how to clean and take care of their homes and small things like in the event that they become sick, how to direct them to the various doctors. And I was supposed to teach them gardening, but they knew more about it than I did. I was not raised on the farm, I was raised in the city. And those people taught me a whole lot and I tell people so often, I got my PHD through what the people in the rural district knew because they certainly knew more than I did. I had the book knowledge, but they had the practice. HUNTLEY: Did you live in the rural area? ROBINSON: No, I lived in Selma. HUNTLEY: You did live in Selma- ROBINSON: Because you see the County, Dallas County is 700 plus square miles. And we had to have these meetings all over the County, more than one place. So that means we had at least 20 or more communities where we worked, and we would have monthly meetings in each one of these. We had charts of the 4-H club and we had to work also with the adults. HUNTLEY: Tell them about bloody Sunday. ROBINSON: Oh, bloody Sunday. It was very cool, rainy day, well, a misty day rather than rainy. And that was because of the fact that... it started I think when I was arrested for walking down the street and I was a political prisoner and Dr. Kane and his staff went to the house and tried to strategize what they were going to do about it, because they felt that citizens were being arrested for no reason whatsoever. And it happened before they decided what they were going to do. A young man from Marin, Alabama, which was just 30 miles from us, was shot in the back and killed by state trooper. And Dr. Kane said that we' ; re going to March to Montgomery and have a conference with the governor and demand that he protect the citizens. ROBINSON: So that Sunday, March the seventh, 1965, we left the church. And Lewis, John Lewis and Hosea Williams were leading and I was second when we left the church, and a friend of mine, two women who were working feverously because my husband had passed. And we walked on through the city and there was a bridge known as Edmund Pettus Bridge that spans the Alabama river. When we crossed the river, we saw these men, state troopers with gas masks on, cattle prods and clubs. And when we got across that, we just wondered, what are these people doing? We actually didn' ; t realize why would these people were standing there? And Hosea Williams who was walking with John Lewis walked on up and the person who had charge of the state troopers said, " ; Don' ; t go any farther. Turn around and go back to your church or your home." ; And Hosea said, " ; May I have something to say?" ; " ; No, you may not have anything to say. Charge on them men." ; ROBINSON: And they came from the right, they came from the left. Some few of them who were in front came from the front and all have these State troopers began to beat the people. Now there are perhaps 700 people who left the... some of them had not even left the church, but there was a line of people marching from the church to where we were. And they started beating them. At first, they pushed me and I got up. And when I got up I saw the people running and they were beating them because we were in front... Beating them, they fell out and they continued to beat them. Some of them I saw getting up just limping away because of the fact that they had... some of them had broken bones and I saw the blood on the highway. ROBINSON: I was actually frozen. I just could not imagine human beings being treated like that. And I was stunned. And I looked around just about everybody was gone. And one of the state troopers came up to me and he said... he hit me right across the back and he said, " ; Run." ; And I just gave him a dirty look because I didn' ; t see why I should run because I wasn' ; t doing anything wrong. And the second time he hit me was at the base of my neck and I fell to the ground unconsciously. From then on actually it was nothing that I know, but having seen the pictures, having heard the different news media speaking about what happened to me, and because I was unconscious. And the horses one, I understand that they tried to run the horse over me and the horse stepped over me. ROBINSON: One guy came, and these were the state troopers, one guy came with a canister of tear gas, and began to just pump it over me. And I swallowed a lot of it, which today has changed my voice completely. And I understand that it has sealed my esophagus in such a way that I will always have an obstruction. And one guy just took his nightstick or whatever he had and beat me. Now I' ; ve seen that picture, and they used it in the flyer when I was running for office. But the fellow by the name of Bobby Gordon, it wasn' ; t one of his pictures, but he took quite a bit. And nobody tried to help me up but one or two little fellas and then they beat them. ROBINSON: So someone back on the other side, on the Selma side, who was standing and they found the sheriff Clark, and they said to sheriff Clark... and this fellow' ; s name was Anderson, Morris Anderson. He said, " ; I' ; ve heard there' ; s somebody dead over there and y' ; all send an ambulance." ; And he said, " ; I' ; m not sending an ambulance anywhere. If anybody is dead over there, let the buzzers eat them." ; And he said, " ; If you don' ; t send an ambulance over there, we' ; re going to burn this town down." ; And they sent an ambulance, picked me up and carried me to the hospital. And I was there for about 30 to 36 hours. And when I became conscious, I said, " ; Oh, what happened?" ; And they told me what had happened. ROBINSON: And of course, I mean, I experienced that. It really gave me a greater motivation, and a greater determination to fight for what we had fought for and got nowhere. What we were fighting for in Selma to get people to get their right to vote. The meetings that we have had, they are... the types of applications that they had, which were 10 pages long and 10 questions on each page. And I said to myself that I' ; m going to fight because my husband lost his life fighting for them. They didn' ; t shoot him. They tried to. They shot in the house and broke the big plate glass window. The telephone became a nuisance from seven o' ; clock in the evening until around seven at night saying, " ; Get out of town. Your house is going to be bombed. You' ; d better not be seen on the street." ; ROBINSON: And of course he had retired because of his health, which he had a number of strokes, and he lost his life because of the fact that a man came into the office to beat him. And when he... it happened that I was in his office and when he raised the cane to do it, why I grabbed the cane, but he went to the hospital for the last time and it never came out alive. ROBINSON: So all of these things made me more determined to carry out what we started ; to make every legal a first class citizen by having them to become registered voters. To this day, I continue to be motivated because we are working with young people. Young people from 18 to around 25 or 27 years of age. We are in the political field now pulling the cover off of Cheney and off of even the poor president who in many cases, he doesn' ; t know what' ; s going on. But what' ; s going on now in Washington, the group that I' ; m working with are responsible for it. We' ; re putting out millions not thousands of pieces of literature, and we' ; ve been able to expose what Cheney has done, what Libby has done and the others. So when we get through, we' ; re going to clean up Washington DC. HUNTLEY: This is the Schiller Institute? ROBINSON: Schiller Institute and this is a- HUNTLEY: Tell me how did you get involved with the Schiller Institute? ROBINSON: You know, I believe in God and though things may happen and we can' ; t understand it, it happens for a purpose. My husband and I were married for four... this is my second husband for four and a half years. The civil rights bill had been passed. The voting rights act had been passed. And I met this guy from New York city and we were on a trip. We just figured that, well, all of this is behind now, we will just enjoy life. We were senior citizens and we just put everything behind us. And we were with a friend of mine who had planned a trip to the Fast Ski, now the Fast Ski, it' ; s an Island where people are on there. Their ancestors were brought there and for a generations, they were still on this Island. HUNTLEY: Where is this Island located? ROBINSON: Beg your pardon? HUNTLEY: Where is it located? ROBINSON: This is the Fast Ski that is around 15 miles away from Savannah, Georgia. And the only way you could get there was by a boat. And she had a program in Selma known as... a radio program known as the women' ; s world. HUNTLEY: who had the radio? ROBINSON: This lady was the wife of a doctor we had there whose name was Maddox, her name was Gloria Maddox. And she asked me what I liked to go because they were going to spend the night in Savannah. And I said, " ; Sure." ; knowing that I still had a few friends who were living there. So she had made all of our arrangements with one of the captains. And when we got to Savannah, he said that all of his boats were out, but I' ; ll put you in care of a man who lives on the Fast Ski Island. And we went down to the arena and he put us in charge of this guy. And the boat was around 15 or 16 feet long. And there were six of us. And we started out, and there were certain places that I recognized because we would go down what we call down the river on picnics. ROBINSON: And we had just passed the waving girl that I spoke of in the past where the big boats come from Boston, from Massachusetts, New York, Glen into Savannah, and they would come into the river from the ocean. We had just passed that specific place when a large boat disrespecting the small craft just went through the water and the first wake or wave almost filled the boat with water, and the second turned it over. And here we were trying to... the thing about it, we didn' ; t have on life-jackets and we could not swim. And this water, the temperature was 42 degrees. We were rushed away from water all except Gloria, the one who had the program and my husband and they were holding onto the boat. ROBINSON: I saw the man who owned the boat with his head down, but he had on a life jacket. And I knew that there was no way that he could survive. And every time a wave would come, it would wash us farther away from the boat. And my husband kept on saying, " ; Are you all right?" ; And I said, " ; Yes." ; I knew he was all right because he was holding onto the boat. HUNTLEY: How were you staying afloat? ROBINSON: God sent his angels to hold me up. That was the only thing. One that was also in the boat and she said, " ; Oh Boynton, don' ; t let me drown. Don' ; t let me drown God. Don' ; t let me drown." ; It' ; s the funniest thing, I had no fear that I would drown. I kept on saying to God that I can' ; t afford to drown, I have too much to do. And I can constantly say that and I wasn' ; t thinking about what I had to do because I didn' ; t know. And who am I? A boat came about, they said it was 20 minutes. So we were in that water not being able to swim. And this is a big river where the big boats come into that river, going to Savannah. And I didn' ; t hear his voice anymore. ROBINSON: And when they began to pick us up, there was a small boat coming from the Hilton Head Island. They had these students from eight years old, 15 and they were on an ecology trip. And one of them saw us. One of them said, " ; look at that stuff in the water." ; And another one said, " ; Well, it has life." ; And then the boat came to us, picked us up and carried us to the hospital in Hilton Head Island. And the first thing I said was, " ; Where' ; s my husband?" ; They said, " ; We haven' ; t found him." ; The boat went down and he went down too. ROBINSON: Now he was an electronic technician. He lived in New York until we married. And he came down, and he brought all of this expensive equipment. And later on I asked somebody in Tuskegee to find somebody to evaluate this material that he had, this equipment. And the lady told me that, " ; I found somebody." ; And it happened to be a man whom I remembered 50 years previously when I was in school. And I said to him when he came up, " ; Are you an electronic technician?" ; He said, " ; No, the guy couldn' ; t come. And I didn' ; t want to disappoint you so I came." ; ROBINSON: We talked awhile and in the talking I expressed the fact that I was having some interior decoration done in the house, and the man had left, and he said the man had gone to Cincinnati and just left the work half done. And he said, " ; Well, if he doesn' ; t come back, I' ; ll come back and I' ; ll finish it for you." ; And he came back and he finished it. And I asked him how much it was, he said... you want me to stop? HUNTLEY: Just one second. Okay so he came back. ROBINSON: " ; I' ; m not charging you anything, will you marry me?" ; And I thought he was joking and out of the clear skies, I said, " ; Uh-huh." ; So he went on back to Tuskegee and got the ring and the minister and the license, and we were married. Now I like to travel. And he said, " ; let' ; s go to New York to the Shriner' ; s meeting." ; Now he wasn' ; t a Shriner. And I said, " ; Okay." ; So we went to the Shriner' ; s meeting and we couldn' ; t get in the Shriner' ; s meeting, but we were looking at the displays of the various components. And a guy came up to me and he started talking, and I wondered why was he talking to me instead of my husband? But I heard him when he said, " ; And we have a blueprint to put water across the Sahara desert and cause it to bloom again." ; ROBINSON: And I thought about California and how it was arid and how it had no water, and they built it up. And I said, " ; Well, if my husband were living, he would approve or something like that." ; Then he said, " ; We have now a section of the city of New York where we' ; re trying to drive drugs out of it." ; And he invited me to come to this meeting that they were going to have with the people in that particular area or community. And I invited him to come to Tuskegee where my husband and I were in charge of the tourists. And then he invited me to go to a meeting that they had in Virginia and I had never heard, with exception of what he said, I had never known anybody by the name of Lyndon LaRouche. But when he told about the program and when I heard him speak, I saw that he was political, he was an economist. And the things that he was doing instead of working with his people, he was working with everybody internationally. ROBINSON: And the program is one, just what we are doing now politically. We have pulled the cover off of chaining, off of all of the people who were backing the president, and we are exposing what' ; s happening with the wall, with the beginning of the wall. And I began to realize, when I told God that I had something to do and had nothing to do, he gave it to me and that is to work with Schiller Institute, which is the name of the organization and the LaRouche Youth movement. And I don' ; t get tired. That' ; s one thing. I like what I' ; m doing and I don' ; t get tired because I' ; m seeing the result. The youth movement is made up of young people, young people who want to do something and who want to be somebody. ROBINSON: And many of those young people have been in drugs. Many of them have been at a crossroad because they didn' ; t know what way to turn. Many of them are people from broken homes or from foster homes and they want to be somebody and want to do something. And when I have some of them come up to me and say that, " ; I was going... I was on the wrong path, I was in drugs and now I seen that it was destructive. And I have come into this organization and when I hear you talk, I feel that I can make it and I' ; m going to make it." ; And it makes me feel good. And I tell them that you give me more than I give you because you give me the determination to continue to do what I do and even give me youth because it' ; s not how I look. I feel a hundred percent better than I look. So they really helped me quite a bit. ROBINSON: And I think when I told God that I had too much, I feel as though he is actually helping me to do the thing that shows that we can' ; t lay down and die because of age. And he gives me the strength to continue to go on. HUNTLEY: Well, Mrs. Robinson I want to thank you for taking your time. I could sit here and talk with you and listen to you for hours on hours. We know that you' ; ve had a long flight and you need to probably get some rest before the event this evening. So I just want to thank you for all that you' ; ve done and all that you' ; re doing. ROBINSON: Thank you. When I leave here, I' ; m going to Oakland to a group of young people there who are expecting me. Yesterday I went to two of the universities and of course I got back rather late and sat up and talked and the fact that I had almost no sleep. I slept on the plane. And when I leave here tomorrow, I' ; ll fly into Oakland and then I come back to Los Angeles. Then I live out of Los Angeles a day afterward, and I' ; m going directly to Rome where my book has been printed in the Italian language. And they are planning on having some type of public service there. Then from there to Germany and I don' ; t know where else. HUNTLEY: So you' ; re going out on tour then? ROBINSON: Yes. HUNTLEY: That' ; s great. Again, thank you so much for your time. ROBINSON: You' ; re welcome. HUNTLEY: Hopefully I' ; ll be able to do this again sometime when we have more time. ROBINSON: Okay. HUNTLEY: Thank you so much. ROBINSON: All right. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
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Amelia Boynton Robinson
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Amelia Boynton Robinson discusses how her activism began while working as a Home Demonstration Agent in Dallas County. She gives a detailed account of Bloody Sunday.
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20051119B
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Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham
United States. Department of Agriculture--Officials and employees
Selma (Ala.)
Voter registration
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2005-11-19
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video
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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bcriohp
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Malena Cunningham
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Annetta Nunn
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5.3 December 13, 2006 Annetta Nunn Interviewed on December 13, 2006 20061213N 0:51:29 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Emily Reynolds Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department African American women Civil Rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.) Annetta Nunn Malena Cunningham Video 1:|18(9)|33(12)|49(13)|65(7)|81(3)|100(2)|116(3)|133(12)|151(7)|170(15)|185(10)|201(7)|218(7)|236(1)|250(13)|263(7)|280(3)|293(7)|310(12)|322(4)|335(1)|352(9)|364(2)|380(12)|395(3)|408(9)|423(6)|436(13)|453(4)|466(9)|482(13)|497(7)|508(2)|521(13)|534(7)|546(6)|560(3)|573(1)|586(1)|601(13)|619(5)|639(1)|652(17)|666(1)|680(3)|695(7)|706(13)|721(11)|737(12)|750(13)|762(16) 0 https://youtu.be/F1PyRYYcpi4 YouTube video English 0 Introduction to Interview Hello, I'm Malena Cunningham here with Birmingham police chief, Annetta Nunn, for the Female First series to learn more about African American women who've become first in their field. African American police chiefs ; African American women ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department African American women--Interviews 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ The homepage of the BCRI 22 Early Family Life & ; Childhood I was born here in Birmingham, Alabama, grew up in the Ensley area. Nunn describes her early upbringing in Birmingham, including her experience with family members and her early career ambitions. African American families ; Birmingham (Ala.) African American families 141 Childhood Memories of Civil Rights Movement You were born in 1958, so you grew up ... You were very young during the Civil Rights Movement. Do you remember any of that, and the police brutality, the black and white footage that's so famous here in Kelly Ingram park of the dogs and the water hoses, the bombing of the church? How much of that do you remember, and did any of that influence your life as a child? Nunn recalls her childhood memories of the Civil Rights Movement. She also describes experiences with racism as a child. African Americans--Civil rights ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; African Americans--Race identity ; African Americans--Segregation ; Racism African Americans--Civil rights 333 Decision to become a Police Officer You said when you were 14, that's when you knew you wanted to be a police officer. Did you express that to your parents, and then, with the Bull Connor era, and with folks maybe not being comfortable with the police department back in the '50s and '60s, what reaction did you get from your family when you told them you wanted to be one? Nunn describes telling her parents that she wanted to be a police officer, as well as her early perceptions of women in the police force. African American families ; African American women ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 440 College and Early Experiences in the Police Academy So, tell me about your college years. You left what high school in Birmingham? Nunn describes her high school and university experience as well as an early internship at the Birmingham City Jail. African Americans--Education ; African Americans--Education (Higher) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 576 Experience as a Female, African American Officer Were you in a class with other black female officer candidates? Nunn describes her experience as an African American, female officer, including challenges she encountered while advancing in her career. African American police chiefs ; African American women ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Sexual harassment of women--United States ; Women police chiefs African American women ; Women police chiefs 930 Advancing in Career How quickly were you able to climb the ranks through the police department? Nunn describes her career and promotions in the police department. African American police ; African American police chiefs ; African American women ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Women police chiefs Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 1006 Balancing Career & ; Family Being a police officer is a demanding job, it's also a dangerous job when you add on the beat, how were you able to have a career, and then also be a wife and a mother? Nunn describes how her faith, family and friends allowed her to balance her career and family life. African American families ; Police chiefs ; Women police chiefs Women police chiefs 1209 Becoming the First Woman Police Chief for Birmingham Well, in 2003, you made history when Mayor Bernard Kincaid appointed you the first woman to be police chief for the city of Birmingham. You weren't the first black, Johnny Johnson was the first African American. What was that like for you to have been named the first woman, and to make history in doing so? Nunn describes her personal reaction to becoming the first woman Police Chief for the City of Birmingham. African American civic leaders ; African American leadership ; African American police chiefs ; African American women ; African Americans--Southern States ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Women police chiefs Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Women police chiefs 1829 Career Reflections & ; Legacy Think back to 1980 when you had that internship at the Birmingham jail, could you have ever imagined, or did you ever imagine then that, you will one day be running the entire department? Nunn looks back on her career and how she would like to be remembered. African American leadership ; African American police chiefs ; African American women ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Women police chiefs African American leadership 2045 Memorial Service and Singing In 2004, three of your officers were gunned down in the Ensley community, and we saw something about you publicly that we had not seen before at the memorial service, you sang. Are you now known as the singing police chief? Nunn discusses how three officers were killed, and the response to her singing at the memorial service. African Americans--Music ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Law enforcement African Americans--Music 2218 Sources of Leadership Inspiration Well, the last thing I want is to ask you is, what do you think have been the biggest inspirations in your life to get you to where you are today? Nunn describes individuals who have influenced her life and career. African American families ; African American leadership ; African American police ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 African American leadership 2715 African American Community Response to Work You talked about Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth who probably even wondered when he was going through what he did in the '50s and early '60s, of being brutalized by police, his church and his home bombed, and being in jail, if he would not only ever see a black person on a police force in his lifetime, much less the chief of police being an African American woman, what kind of reaction do you get from older blacks in the community who lived through that brutality, and now they see you as heading up the police department? Nunn describes her personal experiences with community members' reactions to her being the first female, African American Police Chief. African American civic leaders ; African American leadership ; African American police chiefs ; African Americans--Southern States ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Civic leaders--United States African American civic leaders Oral History Chief Annetta Nunn discusses her path to becoming the first female chief of the Birmingham Police Department. CUNNINGHAM: Hello, I' ; m Malena Cunningham here with Birmingham police chief, Annetta Nunn, for the Female First series to learn more about African American women who' ; ve become first in their field. And thank you so much for joining us today chief Nunn. Let' ; s start from the very beginning, if you' ; ll tell us about your background, when and where you were born, the youngest, oldest of how many children, that sort of thing. NUNN: I was born here in Birmingham, Alabama, grew up in the Ensley area. I was born, was 19th, 1958. And I said, grew up here in Ensley. I' ; m the middle of five girls. My parents always wanted a boy, but my mom stayed after the last girl, that was it. So, I' ; m the middle of five. CUNNINGHAM: What was that like growing up in a family of five girls? What were your goals and dreams and aspirations? NUNN: Well, the age difference is so great. I mean, my oldest sister is 64 years old, and the baby is 40. So, we had a little space between there, but it was great. I guess, growing up I was closer to the ones that was closest in age, but we got along very well. We had our fights like any other sisters did, and sometimes we even ganged up on each other, two against two, because the oldest had moved out by then. But some of my goals and aspirations, like any child, we wanted some of the things we saw that the other children have, but unfortunately, parents couldn' ; t afford it, but they did the best, and we grew up pretty well, stable family life for the most part. At the age of 14, I decided that I wanted to be a police officer. I went through other careers. There was a time I wanted to be a race car driver, a truck driver, and I even wanted to be a nun. I am nun now but a different kind, but since I have two children, you know it' ; s not that kind. NUNN: But, I' ; m not Catholics, so I never knew why I wanted to be a nun. I guess The Flying Nun was on at that time, and they looked pretty good. But at 14 I wanted to be a police officer because of some of the things that I saw going on in my neighborhood. Sort of like we have crack houses now, we had illegal whiskey houses in the area then. And, unfortunately, we saw some police officers that were taking bribes not to bust those houses. And I decided that' ; s not the way it' ; s supposed to be. That' ; s not law enforcement. I want to help my community. So the best way that I could do that was to become a police officer. And also, I like helping people. So, we could mold the two together. CUNNINGHAM: You were born in 1958, so you grew up ... You were very young during the Civil Rights Movement. Do you remember any of that, and the police brutality, the black and white footage that' ; s so famous here in Kelly Ingram park of the dogs and the water hoses, the bombing of the church? How much of that do you remember, and did any of that influence your life as a child? NUNN: Well, a lot of it I don' ; t remember because I was young, but I know that there were things that were going on. So, we lived in Ensley, we rarely came downtown. I don' ; t have, really, any memories of coming downtown Birmingham. We' ; d go to South side to the doctor' ; s office, and that was about it. I do remember there was a time they were coming through with the wagons. The caravan was coming through, and we all heard about it, and as little children, I mean, we wanted to see the horses. And they actually camped out in a church that was probably three blocks from my home, so we went there to see that. And I remember seeing some things on television. And other things that happened, and I didn' ; t realize until I was older exactly what it was, which was the time that, probably, children were leaving school, even though I was very, very young. We were told that something else was happening, and, " ; They were going to come and get you." ; , et cetera. NUNN: And it was actually the children leaving school to come to Kelly Ingram Park, and in that area doing the demonstrations. So, I remember seeing some footage on television, and when Dr. King died, I definitely remembered that, because I think I was about 10 years old then. So those things I do remember. Things happened, I think our parents kept us from some things, but my mother even told us as we got older, a store that was in downtown is within, which is not as ... It' ; s dead right now, but it' ; s on the way back. That was the hustling and bustling area, because most of the people were coal miners, and that community catered to coal miners. And being very fair complexion, my sister was too, my mother was there in one of the department store shopping, and she walked away from my sister. She was there playing with a little young white child, and they were playing together. And then when my mother walked up, and the lady realized that my sister was actually a black child, she pulled her child away. NUNN: And so, children learn those behaviors, and that' ; s the worst thing about it. We can play together until we learn that, hey, we' ; re not supposed to be together, because there are these taboos. And even as an ... I wasn' ; t an adult, I was a teenager. I think I was in college, and when we moved into an integrated neighborhood, and one of the children, I mean, they were in love with my baby sister. I mean, he was a little white boy, and he loved her. He even hid in our doghouse, because he didn' ; t want to go away. But he walked up to my mom one day, and there' ; d been no problems, he was sweet little boy, and he told my mother ... He called her by her first name, which was one thing that caught us off guard. And he called, he said, he said, " ; You' ; re a nigger." ; My mom said, " ; What did you say?" ; And he said it again. And she asked him, she said, " ; Do you know what that means?" ; He said, " ; No, ma' ; am." ; And then she explained it to him, that that' ; s just a derogatory term for a dirty lowdown person. NUNN: And he had been outside playing, and his hands were dirty. And he started looking at himself like, " ; Is that me, because my hands are dirty? So we know that people learn those things. Children are not born with it, they learn it from adults. CUNNINGHAM: You said when you were 14, that' ; s when you knew you wanted to be a police officer. Did you express that to your parents, and then, with the Bull Connor era, and with folks maybe not being comfortable with the police department back in the ' ; 50s and ' ; 60s, what reaction did you get from your family when you told them you wanted to be one? NUNN: I don' ; t know exactly what age I was when I told my mother. I was still in high school. But she' ; s always been supportive. Although my mother grew up in what we call the country, and migrated to Birmingham, she worked over the mountain for her family, I believe was blacks that she worked for that family. But she never taught us prejudice, she never taught us racial hatred or anything like that. She always taught us that, to treat people like you want to be treated, you can achieve whatever goals that you wanted to achieve as long as you worked hard, and believed in yourself, and kept God first. So, when I just wanted be a police officer, I received her blessings. I knew it worried her, probably, but she never communicated that. I knew I was in her prayers, and, to this day, I mean, she' ; s always been supportive. CUNNINGHAM: So, by the time you were 14, or in high school, that would have been the early ' ; 70s, were there women in the Birmingham police department at that time? Do you know? NUNN: I think the first ones may have been coming in, but they were like, neat maids, or working in Juvenile Services, which most departments when they first started accepting women, that' ; s where they were. They weren' ; t in patrol. So, in the early ' ; 70s, I believe that' ; s when women started to come in. I never saw one, but, that was always guys, but that' ; s just what I wanted to do. CUNNINGHAM: But that still didn' ; t deter you. NUNN: No, that' ; s what I wanted to do. CUNNINGHAM: So, tell me about your college years. You left what high school in Birmingham? NUNN: I attended P.D. Jackson-Olin High School in Ensley. And I graduated in 1976, where I went to the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa. I was there for three and a half years, and was scheduled to graduate, and I had started to take an internship program at the Birmingham City jail. So, I would migrate a couple of days to the university, and worked here at the Birmingham City jail, and I took the police test while I was working at the jail, and that would have been ... I took the test in 1979, and I was notified in February of 1980 that I have been accepted into the academy. So I actually had to quit school, because by that time I was taking basketball at UAB, because I only needed one hour to graduate, and I graduated from the University, and the police academy two weeks apart. CUNNINGHAM: Wow. So, did you get your degree in criminal justice? NUNN: Yes, a degree into criminal justice in 1980. CUNNINGHAM: What was it like that first job working in the jail? NUNN: As an intern, I mean, it was great, because I was getting paid. That was the most money I' ; d ever made, but we were interacting with prisoners. We were watching the prisoners, everyone except those that were charged with felonies. The regular police officers did that. But it was interesting, because I ran into people that I knew from the neighborhood. One of the things you had to notice that, you treat people like you want it to be, and some were there, and they definitely needed to be there, and some of there through mistakes. But at that time, they had GED programs going into jail, and there was some they were struggling with their studies, so we would offer assistance to them, and then place them back in their cells. And, I always try to treat people like I wanted to be treated, as humanely as possible, and it' ; s paid off in the long run because, we can' ; t remember everybody we interacted in the jail, but I have run into individuals that were in jail, on the street, and they' ; ll come up to me and say, " ; Well, you know I was in jail." ; I' ; ll say, " ; So, how did I treat you?" ; Say, " ; Well." ; I' ; ll say, " ; Okay, good." ; Because you never know who you' ; re going to run up on. CUNNINGHAM: Exactly. So, when you finished the police academy, was that about 1980? NUNN: Yes. CUNNINGHAM: Were you in a class with other black female officer candidates? NUNN: Yes, we were actually hired ... City of Birmingham was under a consent decree, and actually still under consent decree, I guess we' ; ll come from under it soon, to hire more minorities. So, I always tell people I fit two categories. On my class, we started out with nine people who we ended up with seven. They were four women and three men. They were four African Americans in that class. As I was saying, I fit two categories, and I tell people now, I do believe in affirmative action, it' ; s not lowering any standards, it' ; s just making sure that you' ; re qualified, that you can achieve those goals and get in. And after that, when I was promoted to sergeant, I guess I was one of the youngest people to ever be promoted. Three years within the job, I was promoted to sergeant, and there was a lawsuit filed by the Fraternal Order of Police on behalf of one of their members, because it said that we were only promoted because we were minorities, and because of African Americans, and we were not qualified. NUNN: We had to give depositions, and it' ; s one of the things I tell young people now, you think you have time to play around when you' ; re in school with your grades, but you don' ; t know where they' ; re going to show up. Because those records were entered into the depositions, because in fact, they were trying to prove they were not qualified, didn' ; t have the education, et cetera, but, in the end, it was proven that we were overqualified for the position, because we all had college degrees, and done well in school, et cetera. CUNNINGHAM: How did that make you feel to have that challenge, your background, your credibility, your abilities challenged, and to say that you were only given the job or promoted because you were African American? NUNN: Well, it makes you angry, because you know that you are qualified, that you have a sincere desire for this position. And nobody knows everything. I know that I was young in the department, there' ; s still things that I had to learn. I mean, there are still things that I' ; m learning now, but I knew that I was just as qualified as anyone else. And, to say that I was only given a position because of my race, or because I was a woman, I mean, it' ; s a slap in the face. CUNNINGHAM: So, you would have been promoted to sergeant, what, about 1983, 1984, and how old were you then? NUNN: Should' ; ve been at 24, I believe. CUNNINGHAM: I' ; m sure there were some older man, particularly older white men under your command, how were you able to get their respect and be treated as a sergeant and not as a woman? NUNN: Well, even during the promotional interview, that was one of the questions that one of the supervisors asked, how would I handle when I have a problem working with men who were older, more experienced? I said, " ; I wouldn' ; t have a problem. They might have a problem, but I wouldn' ; t." ; I was going to do what needed to be done. And there were those who would try to trick you, because they knew I was young, bring up situations that they already knew the answer to, to see how you would handle it. But I will say that, one of my greatest supporters during my first promotion was a white sergeant that had normally worked the internal affairs, which most officers hate. They don' ; t like you working internal affairs, because that' ; s their job investigating police. NUNN: Sergeant Harry Yeager, he knew some of these things were going on, and he went to them and told them, " ; You don' ; t do things like that." ; And if he saw that there was something that I can improve on, he would tell me. So, he was one of my greatest supporters. CUNNINGHAM: We often hear that in the police department, there' ; s a good old boys network, and a lot of times, the female officers, and even the higher ups may be sexually harassed. Did you have to deal with any of that in the department, and how did you handle it if you did? NUNN: And sexual harassment is ... Of course, there were things going on because there weren' ; t many women, but my training officer who happened to be a black male, he' ; s one of the deputy chiefs now, Jerry Todd, he told me on the training car, he said, " ; You' ; re young, black female," ; he said, " ; people are going to approach you ..." ; And he didn' ; t say sexually, we knew what he was talking about. He said, " ; They' ; re going approach you." ; He' ; s saying, " ; How you handle that first encounter will determine what you have to deal with within this department." ; Shortly after I was released from the training car, and I can now ride with other officers, or ride by myself, I was riding with another officer who happened to be a white male. And he said, " ; We could go up to the water tower and do something." ; The water tower was an area on the beat where there was a storage tank, a water storage tank. It was secluded, we would have to drive up and check for people who parked and people like to go up there and have sex. So, we' ; d have to patrol there. NUNN: And he said, " ; We could go up there and maybe do something." ; I said, " ; Yes, we can go up there, but only one of us will come back, because I' ; ll shoot you if I have to." ; And nobody ever approached me after that. So, I' ; m sure they spread the word. So, I didn' ; t really have to deal with any of that type of overt harassing behavior. Now, in assignment, things like that, I often felt that, even some of the ideas that you put forth, or some of the things you wanted to do, or actions you took, had a male done that, it would not have been questioned. Even now I feel that way sometimes. The issues that we' ; ve had involving tasers or patrol rifles, that some of them were here when I assumed the position, some of them male or departments that surround us have, they are headed by males, they haven' ; t had to deal with those issues, but I have, and I feel that sometimes that' ; s the reason. CUNNINGHAM: How quickly were you able to climb the ranks through the police department? NUNN: I think I came through pretty quickly. I was promoted to lieutenant in 1991, I believe it was, captain in ' ; 95, deputy chief in 2000, and chief in 2003. Part of the reason I believe that came through so quickly, well, as I always say, I was qualified for the position. I really was never seeking promotion. They had to encourage me to take the first promotion. All I wanted to be was an officer. So, what I tried to do was always geared toward improving the department and helping others, and even trying to bring others up behind me. So, I think people in key places noticed that, that I was not a backstabber, or trying to put anybody else down. And, one of our former chiefs, Chief [Doych 00:16:26], when he came in, and he was the only one that' ; s ever headed this department from outside. He was from New York. NUNN: A lot of people left under his administration, a lot of supervisors. So, a lot of vacancies were created that had been ... I mean, maybe have been stagnant before as far as promotion, but there were a lot of openings, so it created opportunity for you to move up quicker. CUNNINGHAM: Being a police officer is a demanding job, it' ; s also a dangerous job when you add on the beat, how were you able to have a career, and then also be a wife and a mother? Talk about that, because I' ; m sure a lot of women struggle with balancing career and family. And then, you putting yourself in the line of duty and in danger on a regular basis, how were you able to handle that? NUNN: First of all, I always say is my faith in God. When I talk to recruits, I tell them, " ; You believe in what you want to believe in, I' ; m telling you what works for me." ; That' ; s number one. Because you do have situations, you do have stresses that can just blow your mind. So you have to have a stabilizing force, and that' ; s been number one. The support of my family and friends has been the second thing. I have had issues and still have issues. When I was married, my initial plans was to work for the police department for three years, go to the FBI, but I' ; m married in between time and I didn' ; t want to do a lot of traveling, which probably would have had to do, so I decided to stay. So, there was a time when, after I had children, when I first had them, I was then a detective division, which made it a little better, because you had, sometime, normal working hours. But if you had to work over, or called out, and, if my husband was working a different shift, I had my family that I could call and pick up the children, do certain things. NUNN: You get called out at night ... There was only one time that presented a problem, because I actually had to put my son in the car and drop him somewhere else, because nobody was at home. So, you do have those things to deal with. And maybe even had to take them to community meetings. They will be studying in the back of the community meeting while I was doing what I had to do. But having family definitely helped. It would have made it almost impossible had that not been the case to assume certain promotional positions. CUNNINGHAM: I would think that you' ; d have to be a strong person to be a police officer. How were you able to, I guess, turn some of that strength off and go home, and be a wife and mother? NUNN: Sometimes they might have debated it, whether you turned it on. But, you have to realize that the job is the job, and home is home. And, even now, I tell people that, " ; In this line of work, I am the head authority figure." ; But while I was married, I' ; m not married right now, and I was at home, I looked to my husband to be the head authority figure, because my marriage was based on biblical principles, and that' ; s it. It' ; s not a subservient role, but it' ; s just what I believe in. I had to, sometimes, force myself to turn it off with my children, because seeing things that happen in the neighborhood, that happen to children, and you know how they' ; re exposed ... I had two sons in an urban environment, they are at risk, even if they' ; re not doing anything, they' ; re at risk. I had to remind myself that they are children, they want to do certain things. They want to go certain places. You have to let them be children, and pray for them, and pray that they make it back safely. And, I still have to do that, because my youngest is 16 years old, and now he' ; s driving. CUNNINGHAM: Well, in 2003, you made history when Mayor Bernard Kincaid appointed you the first woman to be police chief for the city of Birmingham. You weren' ; t the first black, Johnny Johnson was the first African American. What was that like for you to have been named the first woman, and to make history in doing so? NUNN: To me, I was just still Annetta Nunn, Annetta Watts Nunn. So, it was a bit overwhelming, because, I often tell people, you had Gladys Knight and you had The Pips. I was always comfortable being a Pip, being in the background. But then, all of a sudden, I mean, you' ; re out there. I was actually in federal court on a case during that time that I was promoted. And when I came back to my office, I mean, the office was filled with flowers and congratulations, and I was getting different things, and actually had three different celebrations of that, and a lot of things were going on, because they said, " ; You are the first, you just don' ; t realize it." ; I said, " ; Well, I know I' ; m the first, but I' ; m still just me." ; So, it was a little overwhelming, but, I mean, I enjoyed it. I see it as a chance for me to represent Birmingham in a positive light. NUNN: And even now, when I go to different conferences, and some people still don' ; t realize, even some people in this area don' ; t realize we have a black female as chief now. " ; Birmingham? Birmingham, Alabama?" ; I say, " ; Yes." ; And, one of the jokes with, and I say, " ; We still have dogs, we still have hoses, but now we use them only for law enforcement purposes." ; CUNNINGHAM: What role do you think, or do you see yourself as a role model for other women, particularly, in the police department, who may have never thought that a woman could ascend to the position that you have? NUNN: I do see myself as a role model for men and women. I see it as a source of inspiration that, if you think that something is impossible, nothing is impossible, but you have to be prepared for it when that opportunity opens up. You have to remove all excuses for someone not to give you that position, and that doesn' ; t just start the day the position becomes open. It' ; s basically, is a lifelong process. And I stress that with young men, young women. I enjoy speaking to them, coming to show them that, " ; Whatever it is that you want to do, that you can do it if you prepare yourself." ; So, I do see myself as a role model, and that' ; s why it' ; s important when I' ; m out in public, or in private, or wherever I am, that I realize that I am representing young women in Birmingham area. CUNNINGHAM: With a woman heading the police department in the largest city in the state, has it changed the atmosphere of the town inside of the police department? Is it less of a good old boys network? Has any of that changed at all with a woman leading the way? NUNN: I think it has. I think there have been some improvement. People who have known me throughout my entire career, men and women, they know that there are certain things that I accept, that I don' ; t accept. And so, if there was maybe some things that were going on, either they stopped doing it, or they' ; re hiding it better. So, I think that has changed. Even the disciplinary process, that was one of the biggest gripes when I came in, that it was unfair, in that, some people were treated differently based on who you know. I try to be fair with everyone. That doesn' ; t mean that we' ; re going to gloss over what you do, but we do try to take into account the severity of what you' ; ve done, your past record, and what we' ; ve done is similar instances. So, we do try to be fair, and I think that' ; s going a long way. NUNN: They also know that if they come up with an idea, and it' ; s implemented, that I will give them credit for it. So, I tell them, " ; What you do makes me look good. We represent each other." ; CUNNINGHAM: One big controversy, unfortunately, during your tenure this year, and then in 2005, and 2006, has been the skyrocketing murder rate in the Birmingham area. Of course, you as police chief are not responsible for murders, but how do you get a handle on crime, and get people to realize that this is wrong and try to stop this? NUNN: That has and still is one of our biggest challenges. In 2004, we had a 17 year long in the murder rate. And the next year, I mean, it did skyrocket. Unfortunately, we had some multiple murders. And what we have done is tried to look at some of the common things in the environment, or the person' ; s background that were murdered. We actually did a prevention type bookmark that we hand out at different events, showing people that if they follow certain tips in a prevention mode, that your chance or the likelihood of you being a victim of a crime, any crime, especially homicide, lessens. If you are not involved in drug activity, associating with people involved in drugs, you know your domestic partner those you interact with, do they have a temper? You hanging out in areas that are known to be drug areas, so high crime areas where we do a lot of enforcement, then your chances of becoming a victim escalate. But if you are avoiding those type of activities, then it decreases. And we can usually show them that that' ; s what' ; s happening. NUNN: And, unfortunately, still not listening to it. So that' ; s one of our biggest challenges. So we' ; re seeking to work on a new campaign to make it even more public, to get that information out where people will see it on a continuous basis, and when we speak on it, we do it, and hopefully even put it on the website. And, just as you do preventing fires with the fire alarms, it' ; s the same way. This is an alarm, avoid. If you see these things going on, you need to avoid those, and make them more aware. CUNNINGHAM: How does it make you feel as a person knowing that, this is your city, this is where you grew up, and you' ; ve seen a major change in the city during your lifetime, and particularly, in your tenure in the police department? How does that make you feel? NUNN: It makes me feel great that we have made a change. When I go to some conferences, people ask us, they talk about diversity. We even get surveys coming to the department about diversity in the department, but they are looking for African Americans as a diversity. I say, " ; I don' ; t have that problem." ; I said, " ; I need to get more white females in the department. That' ; s my minority." ; So it makes me glad that we have changed, but some of the things that I' ; ve seen come along with the change is not only within our department, within our community, it saddens me, because we are one of the most important sites, even though we didn' ; t get a stamp. We are one of the most important events that happened during the Civil Rights Movement, and the people that died for the freedoms that we have, and we don' ; t take advantage of it. We live in communities that once we couldn' ; t live in, and now we trash them. We attend schools that we once couldn' ; t attend, and we destroy them. There are job opportunities that are available that once we could not apply for, yet we fail to prepare for them. NUNN: And I know people say, " ; Well, poverty leads to this." ; We' ; ve always lived in poverty, but there was just an expectation that you would not fail, that you were representing those who came before you, so you could not fail. But I just don' ; t see that now. We don' ; t even know our own history. And, that' ; s one of the things I also try to teach wherever I go. We' ; re engaging the faith community that' ; s going to help us, because we got to make a change from the inside out, and that was what turned the Civil Rights Movement around, the faith community led that. So we' ; re going back to the faith community and doing that again. And, it gives me the opportunity to use the painting that McDowell did, because there are religious leaders on there, it points back to where we came from, that I' ; m here because of them, and so I have to pave the way for those that are coming behind me. NUNN: And if we don' ; t know our history, then we will repeat the mistakes of the past. And I think if we can get that history back where it needs to be, it' ; s not blaming anybody, but it' ; s realizing the mistakes that were made, and it' ; s also realizing that it wasn' ; t just black people involved in the Civil Rights Movement. There were many different people who came together, and changed, not only Birmingham, but the nation and the world, and we can do that once again. CUNNINGHAM: How much pressure do you feel being the first female police chief to make sure you do the job right so that it opens the door for other women to have that opportunity? NUNN: Well, I felt a lot of pressure coming in. And not only myself, but I spoke with Chief Ella Cummings, who' ; s the chief in Detroit. We ran a women' ; s conference in Los Angeles, and this was the same thing that she said, that our greatest pressure we felt coming into office was that, no matter what happened, if it would have happened no matter who' ; s in office, whether male or female, that we would be blamed because we were females. It wouldn' ; t have happened if you didn' ; t have a female in there. So that was our primary concern. Second concerns, which are not only affecting us, but male chiefs as well, is the economy, the way the economy is going right now. A lot of the funding is going toward Homeland Security. It used to come to local law enforcement to fight on the home front. NUNN: And one of our former Secretary General said at a conference, that home front is not safe until the community is safe. And so, as those resources are taken away, we see things starting to happen ; our personnel being deployed, we have staffing shortages, and that' ; s making it even even worse. So, these are some trying times for law enforcement across the nation. CUNNINGHAM: Think back to 1980 when you had that internship at the Birmingham jail, could you have ever imagined, or did you ever imagine then that, you will one day be running the entire department? NUNN: I never imagined it. Never thought about it, never even wanted it. As i said, I was encouraged to take my first promotional exam, and I got to where I like. I said, " ; I like this, telling other people what to do." ; So I started to take others. But I never envisioned myself as being the chief of police. I' ; m grateful to God that I am here, because I feel that He put me here, and I' ; ll be here until he' ; s ready for me to leave whenever that He is. And when I' ; m not in this position, I' ; ll still be working to improve my community wherever I am, and hopefully it opens the way for others that will come behind me, even if they don' ; t want to be chief, to at least open their mind to think that, " ; I can do this, even if I don' ; t want to. I can do this." ; CUNNINGHAM: What legacy would you like to leave behind as having been the first African American woman, police chief of the largest city in Alabama? What do you want people to have known about you, or remembered about what you did in that position? NUNN: Well, I' ; ve always said one of my prayers is that, when I go out, I want to go out on a good note. I want to leave things better than they were when I came. And I think, within the department, that has happened. I think, within the community, that is happening, and it is happening. Always have my naysayers, but people know that I' ; m out there, that I' ; m not only just talking, but I' ; m physically out there working, doing some of the things that I asked them to do. One of the things I tell my personnel, I don' ; t ask them to do anything that I wouldn' ; t do myself. That' ; s why when we had taser, I had to get tased, because I told them, I would ask. " ; We don' ; t have to do that anymore now, though." ; But I want them to know that, remember me as being a first, being one that was a chief that led by example, that led according to the directions of God, that showed that you can have a Godly life, that in a police environment, that you don' ; t have to be nasty, that you don' ; t have to use physical force against everybody, that you can communicate, you can bring those skills that are usually seen as female skills, although they are not. A lot of males have them, they just don' ; t like to show them. NUNN: The ability to communicate, the ability to get people to collaborate, to work together, not caring who gets the credit, but to get things done, I would like them to remember me as doing that, and spreading that, not only within my department, but within the community and the surrounding municipalities as well. And, always maintaining my integrity, and keeping God first in my life, and making time for family. Because we tell recruits and people in the community that, " ; This is our profession, but don' ; t ever let this be the only thing that you do. Have something to do outside." ; And, I do a few things outside. My time is pretty tight, but I do try to do things that are not related to police work at all. I don' ; t hang out with a lot of police people, may have wanted to, but have a separate life so that you can maintain the balance. Sometimes it' ; s imbalanced, unbalanced, but you try to maintain it as much as possible. CUNNINGHAM: In 2004, three of your officers were gunned down in the Ensley community, and we saw something about you publicly that we had not seen before at the memorial service, you sang. Are you now known as the singing police chief? NUNN: Well, one of the local writers has referred to me, tongue in cheek, as the singing nun. It was a derogatory article, because I was singing in a vigil that we were having after stuff, all off that. And they said I needed to be doing something else besides singing. But, that' ; s my title now. I' ; ll accept that. And, 2004 was a bad year for me. I call it the year from hell as far as the department. We had people that were within the department that were accused of crimes. We had these three officers killed. We had some unfortunate police shootings. They were high profile. So that was a pretty tough year. And during the memorial service, I debated about whether to sing, because that was the first time I had sang outside of a church environment. But, the Sunday before those services, we were going to have four different services that week, and it was tough. And I knew that, from going to other funerals, when you hear Amazing Grace on the bagpipes, and when they play taps, that' ; s what always gives me. And I said, " ; Lord, how am I going to make it through these services? I got to be strong for everybody else." ; NUNN: And that Sunday, at church, I sang, The Center of my Joy by Richard Smallwood. And it was like a quickening, I would say, of my spirit. I just felt stronger. I said, " ; You know what? I' ; ve got the spirit now, Holy Spirit. I can make it through this." ; And the song that I sang at the memorial service, I' ; d just been singing that all the way up to it. I' ; m determined to walk with Jesus. And as I was sitting there, I said, " ; I want to share this with them" ; . So, I did. And one of the brothers of, I believe it was officer Chisholm, officer Chisholm' ; s birthday was the day of the last memorial service, and his brother came up to me afterwards, and he said, " ; We buried my brother yesterday," ; he said, " ; but this day was a better day for me." ; He said, " ; I' ; m glad you all did this, and I' ; m glad that I came, because now I feel strengthened. And I appreciate you for sharing that with me." ; And and that' ; s what was important about it, strengthening others. And that' ; s what music does for me. Some people drink, some people smoke to handle their stresses, music is my way of coping. CUNNINGHAM: Well, the last thing I want is to ask you is, what do you think have been the biggest inspirations in your life to get you to where you are today? NUNN: I' ; ve had several. First of all, I put my mother, Mrs. Aeneas Watts. My mom' ; s 81 years old now, she' ; s still my biggest inspiration. She told us we could do anything we wanted to, and she modeled the behavior that she expected from us. And my father, even though he had a totally different personality, he still gave some good advice. He' ; s been dead now over 20 years. Reverend C.J. McNeal, he was my pastor of our church for 52 years, and he gave good solid advice. He loved young people, so he made opportunities for young people. One of the things that he told me, two things, and I still remember to this day, and they helped me, and I share it with people when I' ; m doing disciplinary hearings as well. He said, " ; Whatever job you have, you learn everything about it to be the best, so that when they begin to lay people off, they' ; ll keep you, because you know more." ; He said, " ; Even if it' ; s picking up a piece of paper, you do it better than anyone else." ; NUNN: Second thing was, he said, " ; If you argue with people, you' ; ve got two fools. If one shuts up, the other one soon will." ; Another source of inspiration, Chief Johnny Johnson. He was doing things that I didn' ; t realize he was doing until later. Sending me to, or asking me did I want to go some places? The FBI' ; s National Academy, he was the reason that I went there, and some other things that he had done for me. And he was grooming me for this position. And I tried to do that for others. Some of them, they won' ; t take advantage of training opportunities, and I' ; m trying to, " ; Go ahead and see. Try it." ; So, he' ; s a source of inspiration. And my children, they are a source of inspiration for me, and right now, my granddaughter. She' ; s two years old. And, when you asked the question about family, I should have brought that up, because people tend to see police as not human, we' ; re not affected. Since I have two teenage sons, he' ; s 20 now, but we deal with the same problems. NUNN: When, at the age of 17, when my son was a senior, and he' ; s come to tell me that I' ; m going to be a grandmother. I was like, " ; This got to be a nightmare." ; But now, she' ; s one of the greatest joys in my life. And things are difficult, I go by. You see a smile, you get a hug, somebody that just not that demanding, they just want you for you, and that helps. CUNNINGHAM: Does either of your sons, or do either, then want to follow you into the law enforcement profession? NUNN: No. My oldest wants to be an attorney. I guess that' ; s sort of law enforcement, but he said he wants to be an attorney. He may teach school first. The youngest, at first, he wanted to be a basketball star. He does play basketball. Now, he wants to be a welder, because they want planning to put him in the apprenticeship program, so he decided that' ; s what he wants to do. I said, " ; That' ; s your choice. I don' ; t force into you into it." ; But, hopefully we' ; ll have some that want to be law enforcement officers in the future. CUNNINGHAM: Can you see your granddaughter one day being a female police chief of Birmingham? NUNN: With the outgoing personality that she has right now, I can see her being anything that she wants to be [crosstalk 00:40:31]. CUNNINGHAM: Would you like to see her follow in grandmother' ; s footsteps? NUNN: It would be nice if she would. I actually have a picture of her with my hat, and it' ; s like she' ; s saluting. We' ; re going to use for our recruiting poster for police. So, it would be nice, years down the road, to see her to be an officer, or to be the chief of police here in Birmingham. But I don' ; t want to force my views, and what I want them to do on any of them. Be what you want to be as long as it' ; s lawful. CUNNINGHAM: Okay, very good. Thank you. Did we go an hour? Speaker 3:[inaudible 00:41:15] That' ; s fine. That' ; s excellent. CUNNINGHAM: Very good, very good. Thank you, ma' ; am. Say, I learned a lot sitting here talking to you. Your birthday is just two months before mine, I didn' ; t know we work ... CUNNINGHAM: We are back with more of our conversation with Birmingham Police Chief, Annetta Nunn, and you wanted to talk more about the inspirations in your life that led to where you are today. NUNN: Yes. One that I left off was Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth. I definitely didn' ; t want to leave him out. I never really had the opportunity to meet him until I became chief of police. Maybe I was deputy chief the first time I met him. I' ; d heard about him, had seen him on television, and I had the chance to actually talk with him. I remember the first time that I met him, they were having the black car dealership convention here in Birmingham, and they had a program. He was doing a book signing, and he was speaking at 16th Street Baptist Church. And after it was over, members from the institute needed to get him back to his hotel, but they had to also open the institute, the gift shop back up. So they were trying to get him back, I said, " ; Well, I' ; m getting ready go home, I' ; ll take him." ; NUNN: And, they introduced me to him, and he looked at me, he said, " ; The chief of Birmingham." ; , he said, " ; If the chief had looked like this when I was coming up, I wouldn' ; t have mind going to jail." ; And, get a chance to talk to him firsthand about some of the things that he went through, it just makes you appreciate him and others even more. And, someone that' ; s right here from this area, we appreciate all of our civil rights icons. There was Rosa Parks, Dr. King, and all of those, but he was here. One of his big pushes was to get black people on the police force just in our own communities, and it took years, 10 years later, for it to finally happen. So, he' ; s a source of inspiration. And I still have conversations with him now, and try to meet him when he comes back to the city, and to spread his message in ... For someone to go through as much as he went through, and he' ; s never been bitter. Now, that' ; s a fete. NUNN: I mean, they tried to blow him up. And I use him in crime prevention as people say, " ; Well, I' ; m afraid of getting involved in my community, because this may happen, and this may ..." ; I say, " ; It very may will happen, but think of those who were involved in the Civil Rights Movement. If they had say that, I would not be where I am today, and you would not be where you are. So, we' ; ve got to get involved. We' ; ve got to make it for those younger people that are coming behind us." ; And, those members of our department, we try to let them know about some of I, because they' ; re young. This is the generation Xers. We don' ; t have this special patch of police that we grow people from. Chief Johnson used to always say that, " ; They' ; re your children, and if you don' ; t teach them about what happened, they won' ; t appreciate the interaction, or understand some of the interactions they will have with older citizens in Birmingham, because they remember back when. In their eyes, you' ; re still a police officer no matter whether you' ; re black or white, and how you interact with them will determine what they think about us when they leave." ; And, we always say we have to get the public trust. What we do affects that. NUNN: Our biggest complaints within that we receive against police officers, is not use of force. That' ; s the smallest number of complaints that we get. So, think how we' ; ve changed over the years from the ' ; 60s, that used to be a major complaints, use of force. But it' ; s the least amount that we get now. The biggest one is attitude, and people perception of our attitude. So, the way that we ... Again, those communication skills, interaction, collaboration, they come to play on how we affect, and we can learn from those who came before us. CUNNINGHAM: You talked about Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth who probably even wondered when he was going through what he did in the ' ; 50s and early ' ; 60s, of being brutalized by police, his church and his home bombed, and being in jail, if he would not only ever see a black person on a police force in his lifetime, much less the chief of police being an African American woman, what kind of reaction do you get from older blacks in the community who lived through that brutality, and now they see you as heading up the police department? NUNN: I' ; ve actually had some of them, they just start crying in front of me, because they are ... They say, " ; We' ; ve never thought we' ; d ever see this when we were going through this." ; Or they want to just give you a hug, and they wonder, " ; Can I hug a chief?" ; " ; Well, sure." ; And, it makes me feel good, because I do represent what they fought so hard for, and that keeps me going. I mean, there are times when I tell them, " ; I wanted to say take this job and shove it." ; , because you get people on the direct opposite side. They' ; d say, " ; Now that you are there, you don' ; t know where you came from, you should do this, and you should do that." ; I had a lady tell me that ... She was not older. She was a middle aged lady. And she was saying, " ; Well, if some of police officers' ; relatives were killed, maybe you all would react differently to violence, and maybe you can then figure out how to stop it." ; I said, " ; Ma' ; am, I' ; ve had a brother-in-law that' ; s been killed in this city. I had a cousin that was killed. I' ; ve got some officers that one has two of his brothers have been killed. One recently had his nephew murdered. That' ; s just a few. So, we are affected. We don' ; t want to see it happen." ; NUNN: And later on, she said, " ; Well, maybe if you were out in the community more, and going door to door talking to the neighbors." ; And I said, " ; Ma' ; am, this day that I' ; m talking to you started at 6:30 AM." ; I said, " ; Now it' ; s nine o' ; clock at night, and I' ; m here at a meeting with you. So when would you like for me to fit that in? I mean, there' ; s only so much that I can do. I' ; m the representative, but we have to have community support, and have to have you taking this message out." ; And some of the older people, they understand. One of the minister' ; s, I think he' ; s in his 80s, when we were going through the issue about the assault weapons, there was a meeting at his church. And he said, " ; You know," ; he said, " ; I was here during the civil rights struggle." ; He actually played in the Negro League. He said, " ; I was in the military." ; He said, " ; If you sent me to the military today with the same weapon that I took back then," ; he said, " ; I wouldn' ; t go." ; He says, " ; So now you' ; re going to ask police officers to go with something that the criminals don' ; t have, they have something better, and you' ; re going to put them out there." ; He said, " ; You' ; re all crazy." ; NUNN: So, we do get a lot of support from those who have been there, and who understand. So, I think in that light, we owe them that respect by the way we act, the way we interact, the way that we treat them. Because sometimes, we don' ; t treat our elderly citizens, especially in this country, the way that we should, and we owe them a great debt. CUNNINGHAM: Do you sometimes feel maybe you' ; re stuck in the middle between the folks who say to you that they never thought they' ; d see this in their lifetime, you being a police chief, and then the younger people who have no sense of history, and don' ; t even understand what you represent? NUNN: I do. So, I see myself as, hopefully, a bridge that can show how the ones who support me who went through the civil rights struggle, I can now show the younger people through history that this is what they did, this is what you should appreciate, and this is a standard that you have to maintain. You may not have any money, but Mary McLeod Bethune didn' ; t either when she started a college. Dr. Gustin didn' ; t either when he started his business. It can be done, but you' ; re going to have to learn. You' ; re going to have to make sacrifices. Too often now, I see that people don' ; t want to sacrifice for anything, they just want it now. And I often use that, I call it my Black History Month message. It was entitled, " ; Have we turned the dream into a nightmare?" ; using Dr. King' ; s, I Have a Dream speech, and contrasting it to where we are today. NUNN: Now, things that he warned us about, and even tying it in with the Bible in saying that, with the children of Israel, and say, " ; When you go into the promised land, and you have those houses that you didn' ; t build, those wells you didn' ; t dig, those trees you didn' ; t plant," ; he said, " ; don' ; t forget me, that I am still the Lord your God." ; He' ; d roll it to the Civil Rights Movement. " ; When I bring you into the promised land, and you can live in houses you didn' ; t build, jobs that you couldn' ; t get, you can now buy clothes anywhere you want to, don' ; t forget me." ; And when we do, we see what happened. He promised that it would happen, that we' ; ll be in turmoil. And that' ; s where we are now. So, again, that bridge, to get people to see that we' ; ve got to go back to what brought us where we are, and improve on that. And that' ; s not saying we have to do the exact same tactics. We got to allow our young people to do the things that they do today. Too often we want to do the same thing over and over, and they get bored with it. They' ; re into technology, let them use their technology to bridge the gap, to bring our history forward, to improve on it, or if there' ; s a new method of doing something, let them have a shot at it. NUNN: I say, " ; As long as it' ; s not illegal, immoral, or unethical, let them have a shot at it." ; And get them on board. And I think, one of the main complaints they say is that, " ; Nobody listens to us. They tell us what we want, and what we should do, but nobody ever asked us." ; And, you ask them, they will definitely tell you. CUNNINGHAM: Okay, thank you very much. NUNN: You' ; re welcome. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
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Annetta Nunn
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Chief Annetta Nunn discusses her path to becoming the first female chief of the Birmingham Police Department.
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African American women
Civil Rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Horace Huntley
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Annetta Streeter Gary
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Children's Crusade
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5.4 June 4, 1998 Annetta Streeter Gary 19980604G 0:57:47 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Ullman High School (Birmngham, Ala.) King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Children's Crusade Annetta Streeter Gary Horace Huntley Video 1:|18(9)|47(15)|70(3)|86(9)|106(6)|119(6)|149(5)|160(5)|176(14)|186(2)|197(2)|207(9)|218(11)|230(12)|245(13)|255(11)|270(2)|285(9)|307(9)|321(2)|334(2)|351(7)|367(3)|385(14)|392(2)|407(6)|421(12)|430(4)|453(7)|472(6)|488(12)|511(2)|542(9)|565(7)|581(15)|594(6)|609(3)|622(3)|649(3)|667(6)|680(10)|694(1)|721(4)|739(16)|763(3)|778(10)|800(3)|803(1)|817(2)|827(7)|839(5)|848(2)|860(15)|871(12)|878(12)|887(13)|903(4) 0 https://youtu.be/0WAZUj6uN8k YouTube video English 10 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Annetta Streeter Gary for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute’s Oral History Project. I’m Dr. Horace Huntley. We’re presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is June 4, 1998. Mrs. Gary, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit and talk with me about the movement and really Birmingham today. Welcome to the Institute. 33.5161, -86.8145 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 48 Family Background Let me just ask you. Were you born in Birmingham? Annetta Streeter Gary discusses her family background and their educational experience. Barber ; Director Miles College ; Titusville (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Tuskegee Institute ; West End (Birmingham, Ala.) ; YWCA Birmingham 135 Early Education- St. Mary's and Washington Elementary Oh, yeah, ok. Tell me do you remember your first grade teacher? Annetta Streeter Gary talks about going to school at St.Mary's then later transferring over to Washington Elementary because of being able to go to school with the kids in the neighborhood. Elyton Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Miles College ; Powderly (Birmingham, Ala.) ; St. Mary's Catholic School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Titusville (Birmingham, Ala.) ; University of Alabama in Birmingham (UAB) ; Washington Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) 507 Early Education- Ullman High School Annetta Streeter Gary talks about going to Ullman High School and how one teacher had a huge impact on her. Youth--Jail--Perspective African Americans--Civil rights ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 626 Community Background Let me just ask you about the neighborhood and growing up in Titusville. What kind of community was it? Annetta Streeter Gary discusses the make up of her community and also being mistaken for white because of the lightness of her complexion. African American--Community--Middle-class African Americans--Civil rights ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; The Alabama Theater ; Titusville (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Ullman High School (Birmngham, Ala.) ; Washington Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) 1061 Joining The Movement How did you get involved with the movement? Annetta Streeter Gary talked about how she got involved in the movement through a group at her school called the Peace Ponies. 16th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Peace Ponies ; Social and Savings Club ; Titusville (Birmingha, Ala.) 1186 Attending the Mass Meetings How would you describe a mass meeting? Annetta Streeter Gary talks about how mesmerizing it was to hear Dr. King speak. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 1275 Participating in Training Sessions Now you went to the training sessions. What were training sessions like? Annetta Streeter Gary discusses how they were trained to not resist when it came to protesting. Arrested ; Job loss ; Mass meetings ; Non-violent protest Atlanta (Ga.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 1430 Demonstrating and Being Arrested Do you remember your first demonstration? Annetta Streeter Gary recalls her first demonstration marching in Birmingham. African Americans--Segregation ; Lunch Counter Birmingham City Jail (Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement--Marches ; Jefferson County (Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Loveman's ; Newberry's 1594 Spending Time in Jail So when you were arrested what do you remember about the arrest? Annetta Streeter Gary describes what it was like spending a couple of nights in the Jefferson County jail in Birimingham, Ala. African American youth ; Integration ; Racial profiling in law enforcement--United States D-Day--Civil Rights Movement 1963 ; Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.) 1952 Release From Jail Monday night. What were the circumstances of your release? Annetta Streeter Gary talks about being released from jail and going straight back into the mass meetings. African American youth ; Jail ; Mass Meetings Bethel Baptist Church--Collegeville (Birmingham, Ala.) ; D-Day--Civil Rights Movement 1963 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 2078 D-Day 1963 D-Day, did you go to school that morning? Annetta Streeter Gary Talks about participating on D-Day in 1963, and how they walked out of school to go march. African American Youth--Marching ; Fire Hoses ; Mass Meetings ; Water Hoses 16th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement--Demonstrations ; D-Day--Civil Rights Movement 1963 ; Kelly Ingram Park (Birmingham, Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Miles College ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 2682 Bombings at A.D. King's and A. G. Gaston's Do you remember the night that A. D. King’s home was bombed and A. G. Gaston’s Motel was bombed? Annetta Streeter Gary talks about where she was when A. G. Gaston Motel got bombed. Armed Guards A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 ; Western Street School (Birmingham, Ala.) 2812 Recalling the 16th Street Church Bombing That’s right. September 15, 1963, Sixteenth Street Baptist Church bombed. Where were you? Annetta Streeter Gary remembers the church bombings and attending 3 out of 4 of the girls' funerals. Catholic Church ; funerals 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; United States. Act to Award Posthumously a Congressional Gold Medal to Addie Mae Collins, Denise McNair, Carole Robertson, and Cynthia Wesley to Commemorate the Lives They Lost 50 Years Ago in the Bombing of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church, where These 4 Little Black Girls' Ultimate Sacrifice Served as a Catalyst for the Civil Rights Movement 2982 Attending Miles College and UAB Annetta Streeter Gary talks about going to Miles and UAB for teaching after high school. Birmingham City Board of Education ; MIles College ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; University of Alabama in Birmingham 3020 Teaching For Birmingham City Board of Education Where did you teach? What school? Annetta Streeter Gary talks about teaching at various schools around Birmingham, Alabama. School integration--United States Coleman Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Collegeville (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Hudson K-8 School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Patterson Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Titusville (Birmingham, Ala.) 3197 Changes in Birmingham Since the Movement How would you characterize Birmingham, the changes in Birmingham over time based upon what we’ve talked about today? Annetta Streeter Gary discusses how integration has changed Birmingham, but how people have lost touch with families and communities. Community ; Family ; School integration--United States Birmingham (Ala.) 3373 Integrating the Holiday Inn Yes, I would like to state that I was one of the very first, I was fortunate to be one of the first to integrate the Holiday Inn on 3rd Avenue. Also, this hot dog stand that was on the same street as Newberry’s, I can’t think of the name of it. Annetta Streeter Gary was the first to integrate the Holiday Inn and a hot dog stand in Birmingham, Alabama. Integration--Businesses Holiday Inn ; The Alabama Theater (Birmingham, Ala.) ; The Leary Theater (Birmingham, Ala.) ; The Melba Theater (Birmingham, Ala.) 3447 Conclusion of Interview Certainly appreciate it. Interview concludes. Oral History Annetta Streeter Gary discusses participating in the Children's March, being arrested and returning to school and mass meetings upon her release. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Annetta Streeter Gary for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I' ; m Dr. Horace Huntley. We' ; re presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is June 4, 1998. Mrs. Gary, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit and talk with me about the movement and really Birmingham today. Welcome to the Institute. GARY: Thank you. HUNTLEY: Let me just ask you. Were you born in Birmingham? GARY: Yes, I was born in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Were your parents born in Birmingham? GARY: Yes, my parents were born in Birmingham also. HUNTLEY: What part of town did you live in while you were growing up? GARY: The majority of my youth was spent in Titusville. HUNTLEY: In Titusville? GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? GARY: I have two sisters. I' ; m the older of three. HUNTLEY: Now your mother and father, what about their education? How much education did they have? GARY: My mother was a graduate of Tuskegee Institute and my father completed two years at Miles College. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did they do? GARY: My mother was a youth director for the Y, for the Black YWCA. My father was a barber, self employed. HUNTLEY: Where was his barber shop? GARY: In West End on Long Boulevard. HUNTLEY: Oh, is that right? Where on Long Boulevard? GARY: 800 Long Boulevard, I think Taco Bell is right next to that area now. HUNTLEY: 800 Long? GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: Is that down near the hospital? GARY: Right, exactly, the parking lot sits right... HUNTLEY: Oh, yeah, ok. Tell me do you remember your first grade teacher? GARY: I went to Catholic School in the first grade. HUNTLEY: What school? GARY: St. Mary' ; s in Fairfield. HUNTLEY: What kind of memories do you have of your elementary school years? GARY: Fourth grade I was allowed to transfer to public education. I went to Washington Elementary School where W. C. Madison was my principal. A very fine man. I have several teachers that I remember during that time. Ms. Towns, who was my eighth grade teache ; Ms. Baldwin, who was my 7th grade teacher ; Ms. Boones, my sixth grade teacher. Those are just some of the ones that come to mind. HUNTLEY: Do you remember any of the nuns that taught you in those first few years? GARY: Not by name, but I remember the experience. At that time Catholic Schools were very, very strict and at one time I thought I wanted to be a nun. HUNTLEY: Oh, is that right? GARY: Yes, because of the influence of the teachers. I knew at a very, very early age that I wanted to be a teacher. Then that kind of runs in my family also. I' ; m from a family of educators. HUNTLEY: Right, right. Your mother was a graduate of Tuskegee. Did you go to Tuskegee? GARY: No, I was the first one in my family that chose to go somewhere else. HUNTLEY: Is that right? GARY: I' ; m a graduate of Miles. I graduated from Miles in 1970, then I did further studies at UAB. I got my masters from UAB. HUNTLEY: Now, in those early days you went to Catholic School. What was the transition like from Catholic School to the public schools? GARY: One difference was I was used to White teachers. When I was in Catholic School none of my teachers were Black. All of them were White nuns. When I went to the public school it was completely different. HUNTLEY: All of them were Black? GARY: All of them were Black. HUNTLEY: What kind of difference did that make? GARY: Well, I was looking out the eyes of little people so... HUNTLEY: Oh, yes. I understand. GARY: So, it didn' ; t make a lot of difference. HUNTLEY: What about the school itself? Was Washington a lot larger than St. Mary' ; s? GARY: Yes, Washington was larger. Classrooms, even at that time the classrooms were larger... the number of children in the classroom. I remember when I first started at St. Mary' ; s we were living in Powderly Hill and we rode the school bus. We made a move to Titusville and we had to walk across from Titusville to over to 3rd Avenue to catch the bus to go to St. Mary' ; s . We would pass Elyton Elementary School. My father would always say, " ; One day Black children will be able to go to Washington." ; HUNTLEY: You mean to Elyton? GARY: To Elyton. HUNTLEY: Because Elyton was an all White school. GARY: Right, right, but we didn' ; t see that. HUNTLEY: You didn' ; t see that, that would ever be a possibility that you would be able to go to Elyton schools. GARY: No. HUNTLEY: In walking from Titusville to 3rd Avenue, that was a pretty good distance. GARY: That was a long walk. HUNTLEY: Did your father walk with you everyday? GARY: Well, from the beginning they would, but from the beginning my mother or father would walk us across to 3rd Avenue, but then...there was two of us going, my sister also went. Finally, they let us do it alone. HUNTLEY: After you had become accustomed to that walk. GARY: Right. HUNTLEY: Now, at Washington School, being a larger school. Did that have any impact upon, again, you' ; re viewing this from the eyes of a child. Were there any differences in the instruction or differences in the ways that you were treated? GARY: No, we were treated with love at Washington. We were like a family. I guess the same thing was true for St. Mary' ; s. I do remember that, at St. Mary' ; s, we had more equipment than we did at Washington. My instructions I don' ; t feel were any less. HUNTLEY: Do you know why your parents decided to send you to Washington school? GARY: Because after we moved to Titusville the majority of the kids in the neighborhood were going to Washington and, of course, we had a fit. We wanted to go to Washington. As you said it was a long walk across from Titusville across to 3rd Avenue. That was a good little walk. So, I think it was a number of reasons that we were allowed to transfer. HUNTLEY: Then after Washington where did you go? GARY: To Ullman High School. HUNTLEY: Ullman High School. GARY: George Bell was my principal. I have one teacher that really stands out in my mind. That' ; s Ms. Odessa Woolfolk. She was my 11th grade American History teacher and my 12th grade World History teacher. We had...she was a little woman that made a big impact on my life. HUNTLEY: Why were you so impressed with Ms. Woolfolk? GARY: First of all she is a very, very intelligent woman. She was able to, I mean her classes were...she made them so life-like. Like you were there. She was just a good instructor. I remember that was during the civil rights movement. A lot of teachers, after they found out that I had gone to jail, they did not look to highly on that. Ms. Woolfolk made a big to do about it. She made me feel like a hero. It was just her demeanor. The way she treated us, it was like we were a part of her. I know a lot of things she could not say and not do because her job was at stake. She would just casually turn her head and pretend she didn' ; t know what was going on. HUNTLEY: Let me just ask you about the neighborhood and growing up in Titusville. What kind of community was it? GARY: Ok, Titusville was a middle-class community for Blacks. We had teachers, doctors. It was a good community for Blacks at that time. HUNTLEY: What part of Titusville did you live? GARY: I lived right off of Goldwire. HUNTLEY: Birmingham in the 50s, 60s was termed the most segregated city in the country. What was it like growing up in Birmingham at that time? GARY: In the 50s I can often remember going to movies with my father on Sundays. No one would be on the bus but us but, yet, we had to go to the back of the bus. We were very inquisitive girls and we wanted to know why. I never will forget...I guess I had to have been about 11 or 12 years old, maybe not quite that old. We got up on the bus on 6th Avenue, on downtown, to the movie. My daddy decided that we weren' ; t going to sit on the back of the bus that day. He got us and he sat us up in the front. He sat there with us. The bus driver pulled over right there where Annie P' ; s Store used to be. He pulled over and he told my father that either he was going to move back or he was going to call the police. I remember there were several older women on the bus and they told my daddy that you don' ; t do anything like that when you have children with you. HUNTLEY: Like when... GARY: Right. They kind of chastised him because we were crying. We were kind of upset. All we knew was that the bus driver was going to call the police on our daddy. It was very, very devastating to us. So he got us and he moved us back to the back of the bus. The bus driver went on. He never did call the police. My daddy often told us that we could have made history if ya' ; ll wouldn' ; t have cried. HUNTLEY: Yes. GARY: We were so young and we did not understand. It was a thing in our house where my mother and father always taught us that regardless of the color of our skin or our race, because you can look at the color of my skin and see that, unless you just knew that I was Black, you would not be able to tell. But they always taught us that we were as good as the next man. This was the way that we were taught. We were from a loving family. A family that did not think that race should have been an issue. HUNTLEY: Were both your mother and father light skinned? GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were there any problems as a result of you being so light skinned and living in a Black community? GARY: Right, right. You know especially with me being so involved in the civil rights movement it would really, really hurt my feelings when my good friends would get angry. As long as we were ok it was fine, but when they would get angry they would call me half White or something like that. It really, really bothered me as a child. Like I said we had parents that were able to sit me down and explain that we don' ; t control our color. That' ; s just like the White man holding us down because we are Black. We are not in control of our color. Like I said, my mother and my father were both light skinned. My genes, I had no choice but to be light complected. Yes it was always as a child and even now I have people to question me about my race. HUNTLEY: I know that there were people that were lighter skinned that actually went to the Alabama Theater. One of the things that I always wanted to do. I wanted to go to the Alabama, but never could, but I had friends who would pass and they actually went to the Alabama Theater. Did you ever do anything such as that? GARY: No, I mean that was something that was just, I was just [inaudible] about. I wanted...I was Black and it was no doubt about it in my mind. Regardless of what others said, you know. No, never had any desires to pass. I have not ever had problems with my heritage. HUNTLEY: You never thought about using that to your advantage just to get back at White folk by going into something that you know, as a Black person, you never would have been able to, but because they would not know it you never thought about doing that? GARY: No. Ironically, I was one of the first to go to the Alabama Theater after the civil rights laws were passed. HUNTLEY: Ullman was a real institution and there was always this big rivalry between Ullman and Parker. Why did you decide to go to Ullman rather than go to Parker? I know that there were some that lived in Titusville that did go to Parker. GARY: I guess, maybe, because I went to Washington. The majority of my classmates went to Ullman. I had enrolled for Parker and at the last moment decided I was going to go to Ullman. I have no regrets. HUNTLEY: How did you get involved with the movement? GARY: I was in a Social and Savings Club at the time. Charmettes, no, I' ; m sorry, that wasn' ; t the club that I was in, the Peace Ponies. HUNTLEY: The Peace Ponies? GARY: The Peace Ponies, not because of the movement, that was just the name of our little club. HUNTLEY: Do you remember why you named it the Peace Ponies? GARY: No I don' ; t. I don' ; t remember how we came up with that name., I do remember there were eight of us. HUNTLEY: Girls and boys? GARY: Just girls. We were 10th and 11th graders. They were all from Titusville. All of us grew up right around. HUNTLEY: Like a social and savings club. GARY: Yes. The first time...the way we got involved we came to a couple rallies over at Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: The group? GARY: The group, the club. Then we got so that we were following the movement around. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to go the first time that you went? How did that happen? GARY: I really don' ; t remember exactly why we went to that first meeting. I know after we went to that first meeting we decided that this was something that we were going to do as a project, our club. We would go to the meetings, to the rallies, on Saturdays they would have training. We would come to the training. HUNTLEY: So, you went to the mass meetings regularly? GARY: Right. HUNTLEY: How would you describe a mass meeting? GARY: I remember the first time I heard Dr. King speak. It was as if he was hypnotizing you. I would look around and the people in the audience and even as young teenagers, my other friends and I we would just be...when we would leave out of the meeting, you know it was just like we needed to do something right then. We were sitting back and we could hardly wait until they started the demonstrations. Like I said, we were going to the training. Tell you another adult that would pick us up and take us. She was a friend of my mother, Lucinda B. Roberson. Ms. Roberson would take us down, on Saturdays, to the meetings if we didn' ; t have a way. HUNTLEY: So, this then simple became a part of you. GARY: A part. HUNTLEY: You look forward to doing it and it appears that if that had been ended prematurely you would have missed that part of your life. GARY: Right. HUNTLEY: Now you went to the training sessions. What were training sessions like? GARY: They were...I remember Jose, I can' ; t think of his name. HUNTLEY: From Atlanta? GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: I have a friend named Jose Nixon, but I know who you' ; re talking about. I' ; ll think about it. GARY: Ok. Well, he was one of the ones that was training us. What we would do, they would talk to us about non-violence. How, regardless of what someone did to you then, you were to just resist them. HUNTLEY: You were to resist them or you were not to resist them? GARY: You were not to resist them. They also showed us how...we made signs. They talked to us about what we were to say when we were arrested, if we were arrested. At that time a lot of parents lost their jobs because children were participating. HUNTLEY: Did you know anybody personally that lost their job? GARY: No, I didn' ; t know anybody personally, but I was told that. HUNTLEY: In the meetings, the mass meeting? GARY: Right, in the mass meetings they would have different ones, that had already been arrested, come up and tell their stories and tell what had happened to them. HUNTLEY: You said you were really impressed by Dr. King. GARY: Really impressed by Dr. King. HUNTLEY: Did you see him more than once? GARY: More than once, I cannot count the number of times that I' ; ve seen Dr. King. I tell my children that at school a lot of times people who were not involved in the movement, you know after everything was over with then, of course, Dr. King became a hero to them. But he was a hero to me even before this. It was just something about him. I knew that he was God sent. That meant a whole lot. HUNTLEY: Do you remember your first demonstration? GARY: Yes. Well, the first demonstration I was involved in, I was not arrested. It was on...it was during a time when Dr. King was in the county jail. We went, there wasn' ; t very many of us, we went down along with some preachers. I guess it was a group about 25- 30, somewhere in there, it wasn' ; t a very large group. We went down and we kneeled on the steps and the preachers prayed and we sung. I never will forget that the fire chief came up, but for whatever reason they did not do anything. They just stood by the side. They did not do anything on that particular day. It was on a Sunday. They didn' ; t do anything. After we prayed we disbanded. I think it was maybe the next Saturday that I was arrested for the first time. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances of your arrest? GARY: We marched down, we left Sixteenth Street, no, no, let me take that back. We were dropped on 3rd Avenue right there by Loveman' ; s and we marched from that corner up to the alley that was in between Loveman' ; s and Newberry' ; s. That is where we were picked up. We were taken to Jefferson County. HUNTLEY: Did you have signs? GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: What were the signs saying? GARY: Freedom Today, Tomorrow. HUNTLEY: Had you all planned to march? Or were you just going into Newberry' ; s? GARY: What we were trying to do was to keep people from going in. We were marching because that was after they refused to let Blacks eat at the lunch counter in Newberry' ; s. What we were doing was picketing so that Blacks would not go into Newberry' ; s. HUNTLEY: So when you were arrested what do you remember about the arrest? GARY: I remember when we were taken to the county jail. We were fingerprinted ; they took our pictures, then they began to question us. They asked our name. Well, let me go back a step. The first thing that was asked of me when I got up there, the matron, the police matron or whatever she was called, looked at me and said, " ; What are you doing in here?" ; I said, " ; I want my freedom." ; She just laughed, that was so funny to her. When I said I was Black she called several other people in to see me. At that time I was a little girl with long pigtails, you know. She just had no idea that I was Black. What they did, they separated us. They took the ones with my complexion, I guess almost down to your complexion. They put us in a separate group from the rest of them. They put us in a day room that had no facilities for sleeping or anything like that. It just had a big iron table and iron benches. They said that' ; s where the prisoners would come during the day. They put the others back in the cells. HUNTLEY: So, they separated you by color? GARY: By color. HUNTLEY: So, the darker ones they put in cells, is that right? GARY: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: That' ; s interesting. Every time I interview somebody I find out something a little bit different. I' ; ve never heard that before. GARY: Yes, they did. This was at Jefferson County jail. Not many children went to Jefferson County. This was before D-Day, before May 3rd. It was in the later part of April, maybe about the middle of April. HUNTLEY: How long did you remain in jail? GARY: I was arrested on Saturday morning and I stayed until Monday night. HUNTLEY: What was it like? GARY: It was an experience that just can' ; t be...you know, I remember the closing of the doors. Those doors closing. I really thought, my mother and father told me that I was too young and all of this. I think they were more worried about us getting hurt. HUNTLEY: Your safety. GARY: Right. Like I said earlier my father definitely believed in integration. It was just he didn' ; t want to see us hurt. I kind of thought at the time that maybe they were right. HUNTLEY: While you were there? GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, you had second thoughts about it? GARY: I had second thoughts. We had one matron that came on in the evening shift that was not so bad as those other jailers or whatever they were called. HUNTLEY: Now, were they Black or White? GARY: They were White. HUNTLEY: And they were tough? GARY: They were tough. The food, could not eat the food, period. There was no way to eat the food. They had us scrubbing, gave us rags to scrub along the front of the cells. If you were too loud or whatever, you were given extra duties, extra things to do. HUNTLEY: Now how many people were in the day room with you? Was there a large... GARY: It was a large day room. It wasn' ; t but about...the eight of us, my club members also. HUNTLEY: All of you were together? GARY: All of us yes. All of us went. HUNTLEY: So, all of you were light skinned? GARY: No, all of us were not in the dayroom. HUNTLEY: Oh, ok. GARY: The eight of us, when I was trying to figure out how many children were locked up that day. I guess it might have been about 20 of us. Eight of them were my club members and myself. No, I take that back there were seven of us because we had one that didn' ; t go the first time. In the day room I guess there might have been about eight of us. HUNTLEY: Were there beds in there? GARY: No. HUNTLEY: No beds. GARY: There was just a table. HUNTLEY: Where did you sleep? GARY: What happened was that at night when the night matron came on--remember that I said she was nicer to us. She allowed us to bunk up with the ones that were in the back. So, what we did was kind of double up so that everybody could have somewhere to sleep. HUNTLEY: You were there until Monday? GARY: Monday night. HUNTLEY: Monday night. What were the circumstances of your release? GARY: They came up, the civil rights movement had gotten people to put their houses up. They came up and called our name. I had on a new sweater. I ran off and left that sweater. HUNTLEY: Never looked back. GARY: Never looked back. HUNTLEY: It sounds like you were glad to hear your name called. GARY: I was glad to hear my name called. HUNTLEY: Did they take you home after you were released? Or did you go back to the movement to a meeting? GARY: We went, I think we went to a meeting the next night because it was so late that night we went home. Then we reported to the meeting and this time we went to Bethel Baptist Church over in Collegeville, Fred Shuttlesworth' ; s church. We gave an account of what had happened to us at that time. HUNTLEY: In the meantime now, you went to school Monday morning. No, you didn' ; t get out until Monday night. GARY: Right. HUNTLEY: So, you went to school Tuesday morning? GARY: Right. HUNTLEY: Now, what was that reception like? I know you mentioned that there were some teachers, like Odessa. What about the students? GARY: They were real interested about what had happened. You been to jail, you know. We were 15, 16 years old and it was impressive to them. We had several kids that were beginning to become involved in the movement. This was, like I said, before D-Day. Well, in my class it was not as many, because I was in an accelerated class and for what- ever reason the kids in that class did not participate like other students at Ullman High School. HUNTLEY: D-Day, did you go to school that morning? GARY: I went to school. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. How did that day start? GARY: Ok. HUNTLEY: Wait, before you tell me about the day. Tell me about the night before. GARY: The night before we had gone to the demonstrations and they had told us that they were going to come around to various schools and they encouraged us to go to school. Because a lot of kids were talking about just not going to school. That was not the effect that they wanted. They wanted you to go to school and then...so we could really help to turn the children out of school. I remember, as the day wore on, no one showed up. We' ; re thinking, what' ; s going on. It was like we... HUNTLEY: No one from the movement showed up? GARY: Right. Finally they got over to Ullman. I think it was about 1,000 and something children that came out of Ullman High School on that day. You know, when I think about it, I had never just really thought about that day until you asked that question. I can remember, now, the feeling, you know, it was just like it' ; s here, it' ; s about to happen, you know. And the joy of seeing all of these children coming out to participate in the movement. It' ; s a feeling that you just can' ; t describe. HUNTLEY: One of those feelings that you enjoyed it so much, that there' ; s just not words to describe it. GARY: Exactly. HUNTLEY: What did the teachers and Mr. Bell do that day? GARY: Mr. Bell was running around like a chicken with his head cut off. Mr. Bell did not want us to leave that school. One teacher, like I said, Ms. Woolfolk, turned like she did not see. Ms. Goree was another teacher that acted as if she did not see. Now we had a number of teachers that told us we were wrong. That we were breaking laws and we were putting our parents' ; jobs in jeopardy. That we would be penalized. HUNTLEY: That didn' ; t stop you? GARY: That did not stop us. HUNTLEY: So, then you left Ullman in mass and marched where? GARY: We went down, we came down to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. They were going out in groups. We went out in groups. As soon as one group cleared then another group. The idea was that they were not going to be able to, they did not have enough police to stop. HUNTLEY: All those number of people. GARY: Exactly. Kelly Ingram Park, as far as you could see was just people, people everywhere. Which was a difference because, like I said, when we first started, the first couple of demonstrations that I took part in, there were 15 to 20 people. So, that was... HUNTLEY: The children had not been enlisted when you first started. GARY: Right. Well, they were using the college students at that time, Miles College students. HUNTLEY: Then when they started to get all of the high school and junior high school students involved, that' ; s what overwhelmed the city. GARY: Exactly. HUNTLEY: Jose Williams, was who you were talking about. GARY: Jose Williams. HUNTLEY: Who came to Ullman that day? GARY: Jose Williams. HUNTLEY: Jose did? GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: Explain to me, if you can remember, what it was like leaving Sixteenth Street Baptist Church in the group of folk that you left with. What did you see and how did that impact upon you? GARY: Leaving out of the basement because that' ; s where we left from, down in the basement. As we came out and we had our signs and all, I remember that I started crying. When I looked up and saw all of the people, I guess it was just the idea of what was about to take place. The things that we had heard about, that Dr. King had talked about. How the movement was just moving forward. It was just overwhelming. HUNTLEY: Were your club members with you that day? GARY: Right. HUNTLEY: Were all of you together? GARY: No, we were separated. I think it was two, three or four of us together in one group and three or four in another. HUNTLEY: When you got out onto the street what did you do? GARY: We went around the corner and I guess that must have been 17th Street. We got right around the corner from 17th Street, that was when the water hose met us. HUNTLEY: Were you hit with the water? GARY: Yes. By me being small I was one of the first ones in line along with one of my club members, Jackie Rep. We had been taught, that if they put the water hose on you, to sit down and cover your face so that the pressure of the water would not hurt your eyes. We were taught to sit down and if we balled up into balls, then the water would not hurt as much. But that was not so. That water washed the two of us, I can remember us balling up, hugging together and the water just washing us down the street. HUNTLEY: And you were sitting? GARY: Sitting and balled up and the water just washed us down the street. HUNTLEY: Forceful? GARY: Forceful. It was like pins maybe, sticking you in your arms and legs and things. Water was very, very forceful. HUNTLEY: Did you then find yourself, eventually, getting up and then going back to the church? GARY: Going back to the church. What I did was to leave the church and go home and changed clothes. My other club member did not leave and she was arrested on that day. She was arrested again on that day. HUNTLEY: Oh, she had been arrested with you before? GARY: Right. HUNTLEY: She got arrested again prior to getting back to the church? GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you know that she had been arrested before you got back? GARY: No, I didn' ; t know until I got back. I thought she was going...I looked up and saw my parents. My parents had come down and, like I said, I went home to change clothes because I was soaked. HUNTLEY: Did you come back? GARY: Came back down. HUNTLEY: Did your parents bring you back down? GARY: They brought me back. HUNTLEY: They were apprehensive... GARY: They were apprehensive, but ,yet, they knew that this was something that I truly believed in. I guess they felt like, well, she' ; s been to jail before so... HUNTLEY: Were they involved? Were your parents involved? GARY: No more than like I told you. My father had us to sit on that seat. No, they did not. HUNTLEY: Did they attend any of the mass meetings? GARY: Yes, they began to attend the mass meetings after the first time I was arrested. Then they began to attend the meetings, because the day that the water was put on me, they did not even know that I had come down. They just happened to be standing out around. HUNTLEY: Oh, so they were not aware, you did not tell them that you were going down there that day? GARY: No, I did not tell them that I was going that day. They took me home and I changed clothes and they brought me back downtown. HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested again after that first time? GARY: No, I was never arrested again. I tried, especially when all my other club members were in jail, because all of the others managed to get arrested on D-Day for the second time. HUNTLEY: Do you remember the night that A. D. King' ; s home was bombed and A. G. Gaston' ; s Motel was bombed? GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: Where were you that night? Were you at home? GARY: I was at home, but we got in the car and we came down. HUNTLEY: With your mother and father? GARY: My father, my father brought us down. That' ; s also the night that Attorney Shores' ; house was bombed. Is that not correct? Because I remember going over there when we left from downtown. HUNTLEY: There were guards at the various homes and churches and, in fact, in communities as well. GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: Do you remember anyone in your community standing guard? GARY: My father and several other men in the neighborhood set up night patrols. They would, they had someone posted right there on the corner of Greensprings and Goldwire. They had someone posted right at the entrance on 15th Avenue, off of Greensprings, down the hill, because that' ; s the area. Some were round by Western Street School, just all over the neighborhood. Anywhere where a car could come in, they had someone posted. HUNTLEY: Do you know if they were armed? GARY: Probably, probably they were. HUNTLEY: I' ; ve talked to various people and some say yes and some say no. I had one person to say that I was not, but others that were. GARY: That' ; s the way it was. My daddy did not believe in weapons. I know that he was not, but like I said, I know that some were. HUNTLEY: Right. GARY: Because everyone did not believe in non-violence. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. September 15, 1963, Sixteenth Street Baptist Church bombed. Where were you? GARY: We were home that Sunday. When the church was bombed it was like a dark cast on that day. Just looked like a gray day. It happened that Cynthia Wesley was in my sister' ; s class. Denise McNair' ; s father and my mother finished Tuskegee together--was a music teacher at Washington Elementary school. The only one that we were not connected to, in some kind of way, was Addie Collins. My grandmother was a member of Sixteenth Street Baptist Church before her death. So, I was familiar with the church and everything. It was a sad day. HUNTLEY: Where were you a member? Where did your family go to church? GARY: We went to Our Lady Phantom, a Catholic church. HUNTLEY: That was a...you know the picture that I get of that day and someone else has said that it was a gray day. It was a gray day in Birmingham. GARY: It was. HUNTLEY: Spiritually it was one of those creepy days. Know if you knew the children that died then it had to have been...Did you attend the funerals? GARY: Yes, I did. I attended, again, along with my club members. We attended the funerals. We did not attend Carol Robinson' ; s funeral. We went to the three funerals that was held together at 6th Avenue. HUNTLEY: Turbulent times. What did you do after finishing at Ullman High School? GARY: After finishing Ullman High School I attended Miles College. I received my B.S. in 1970. I later forwarded my education at UAB. In 1970 I became a teacher for the Birmingham City Board of Education. HUNTLEY: Where did you teach? What school? GARY: I taught one year at Patterson, two years at Coleman, which was predominately White. For the last 25 years I' ; ve been at Hudson Middle School in Collegeville. HUNTLEY: What was it like going to Coleman? GARY: My first year of teaching I taught at Patterson, up under Dr. John Campbell. I had a blackboard and 50 children in a classroom. The next year, because of integration, I was moved to Coleman, because we had to have a certain ratio of Black to White teachers. So, I was moved to Coleman Elementary School where it was maybe, maybe two Blacks per classroom. This was a very, very small neighborhood school in Crestline. It was a middle-class school where, as Patterson, was a low- poverty area. At Coleman we had everything that we could think of to work with the children. Where at Patterson we did not. Even at that time the classroom load was 25. HUNTLEY: Versus 52? GARY: Versus 50. All you had to do was, if you wanted to do the job, all you had to do was to tell them what you wanted to work with and those parents provided it for you to work with those kids. I asked to be transferred back to a Black school because I felt like, if I was going to work with children, I wanted to work with my own children. And I was sent to Hudson Middle School, well, it was Hudson Elementary School at the time. It was the largest school in the city of Birmingham, at the time we had 1,800 children. HUNTLEY: In an elementary school? GARY: An elementary school. Again I was back to the 40 something in a classroom versus the way schools are now. HUNTLEY: Were you still in Titusville at the time? GARY: No, I had married and we moved away from Titusville. HUNTLEY: How would you characterize Birmingham, the changes in Birmingham over time based upon what we' ; ve talked about today? GARY: I think, as far as integration is concerned, I think that it has helped us in a lot of ways and that we' ; re able to, the opportunity is out there and all we have to do is take advantage of them. I think it had hurt us in other ways. The ways I think that it has hurt us is that we have lost the closeness of our communities. We' ; ve lost the closeness of our families. Our children have lost their heritage. They don' ; t realize how far we' ; ve come and they' ; re not taken advantage of it. I feel like with the grace of God and education, that the children can do anything that they want to do. However, they' ; re not taken advantage of the situation. I think our parents need to wake up. When I was a child the parents, we could not go everywhere, we did not have a whole lot but that, that we had our parents taught us to appreciate and they taught us the value of an education and they gave us love. Now the parents, well, it' ; s not all of them, you know that, but I feel like we have a lost generation and if we don' ; t reach back and pull our children up, then we' ; re going to be in a worse shape than we were 25, 30 years ago. At that time they had our bodies, where in now they have our minds. HUNTLEY: I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule. You' ; ve been very helpful. Your analysis is very enlightening. I want to thank you for coming. Is there anything else that we did not cover that you would like to leave with us.GARY: Yes, I would like to state that I was one of the very first, I was fortunate to be one of the first to integrate the Holiday Inn on 3rd Avenue. Also, this hot dog stand that was on the same street as Newberry' ; s, I can' ; t think of the name of it. HUNTLEY: 19th Street. GARY: 19th Street. I was first to integrate that hot dog shop. The Leary Theater. HUNTLEY: You mean you went downstairs in the Leary? GARY: I went downstairs. The Melba Theater up on 3rd Avenue and also the Alabama Theater. And that was due to Ms. Roberson chose other kids, as well as, myself to test the law after it had been passed. So, I got a chance to do that. HUNTLEY: A pioneer. GARY: A pioneer. HUNTLEY: Certainly, appreciate it. GARY: I thank you. HUNTLEY: You really enlightened us and this tape will be a part of the collection of many others. It simply can only enhance what we' ; ve done. GARY: Thank you so much, Dr. Huntley. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
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Annetta Streeter Gary
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Annetta Streeter Gary discusses participating in the Children's March, being arrested and returning to school and mass meetings upon her release.
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Ullman High School (Birmngham, Ala.)
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department
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1998-06-04
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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Annie Levison
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Rev. J. S. Phifer
Voter registration
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5.4 July 5, 1995 Annie Levison 19950705L 0:39:40 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Birmingham City Jail (Birmingham, Ala.) Rev. J. S. Phifer Voter registration Annie Levison Horace Huntley Video 1:|12(6)|46(2)|80(7)|98(12)|121(12)|138(3)|153(13)|171(5)|184(4)|199(7)|217(18)|238(6)|257(1)|278(7)|302(2)|325(10)|344(9)|364(4)|395(1)|410(10)|429(1)|445(5)|472(5)|498(2)|517(2)|530(10)|564(5)|585(5)|603(6)|618(8)|635(6)|648(10)|660(9)|676(3)|689(13)|711(3)|727(12)|741(10)|757(2) 0 https://youtu.be/7aMcsI-Slcw YouTube video English 30 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Annie Levison for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Annie Levison is Introduced Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Levison, Annie African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Oral history interview 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 47 Family Background I just want to start by asking a few general kinds of questions. Tell me a bit about your parents. Levison says that her mother was from Montgomery, Alabama, and her father from Huntsville, Alabama. They met around 1928 on the southside of Birmingham. Her mother worked at American Peerless Laundry, then later at Miro's Grocery as a meat cutter, and her father was a truck driver. She mentions that she has one brother and one sister. Family Birmingham (Ala.) ; Montgomery (Ala.) 156 Education and Childhood Where did you go to Elementary School? Levison describes the most influential teachers, and compares her educational experiences at Ullman and Parker High Schools ; the differences being that Ullman, at the time, had been a traditionally white school. She then continues to talk about her experience growing up in the Southside neighborhood in Birmingham. Birmingham Public Schools (Birmingham, Ala.) A.H. Parker High School ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Cameron Elementary School ; Ullman High School 503 Perspective on Desegregation in Schools & ; the Birmingham Educational System Well, we always thought that prior to desegregation of schools, when the schools were " ; integrated" ; then the schools would be better. How do you view that? Levison talks about how some aspects of desegregation caused some harm due to cultural differences between Black and white teachers when dealing with students and parents. Then, she states that schools are not adequately teaching Black history, resulting in a disinterest in the topic. Education--Alabama Children, teachers, and learning ; Discipline of children 845 Involvement in ACMHR & ; Mass Meetings You went on to Parker. After high school, what did you do? Levison talks about how she moved to St. Louis, Missouri in 1951 until returning to Birmingham in 1957. She describes how she felt it was necessary to get involved in the Movement after seeing the significant difference of the treatment of African Americans in St. Louis in comparison to the discriminatory practices in Birmingham. Her involvement started through participating in the mass meetings organized through New Pilgrim Baptist Church, pastored by Rev. N. H. Smith, Jr. African American churches ; Birmingham, (Ala.) ; Mass meetings ; St. Louis, (Mo.) African Americans--Segregation ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; NAACP ; New Pilgrim Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Rev. N. H. Smith, Jr. 1032 Becoming a Registered Voter When you returned, were you a registered voter? Levison describes her experience in becoming a registered voter in 1957, which included a pole tax and lengthy, written questionnaires asking about constitutional amendments and family history. Poll tax ; Voter registration 1118 Arrest & ; Experience in Jail You became active in the Movement, you told me why. You thought it was just that time, were you ever arrested? Levison recounts the time of her arrest in 1957 for riding at the front of a bus in downtown Birmingham along with other members from her church. She and others were put in jail twice, once immediately after their arrest, and again after returning for their court date, and were kept there over a weekend. She then describes the poor conditions within the jail itself. Arrest--United States ; Rev. J. S. Phifer Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Birmingham City Jail (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Segregation in transportation--United States 1477 Activities During the Demonstrations This was obviously very early in the Movement and that was really just the beginning, laying the foundation at the time. After that, were you involved in the Movement? Levison details her continued involvement in the Movement, which includes her attending mass meetings. She eventually pulled back from marching during the demonstrations in 1963 due to her job as an insurance writer for Protective Industrial Insurance Company. She also describes a time where her brother was arrested while he was still a student. Insurance writer ; Mass meetings ; Non-violence ; Protective Industrial Insurance Company African Americans--Employment ; Arrest--United States ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Students--Civil rights 1777 Economics & ; Black Business in Birmingham I would teach the Black people how to keep their monies in their pockets and keep it in the Black areas. Levison states that the most effective method of advocating for change in the future lies in economics. She suggests that strategically spending money to support and develop Black businesses in Birmingham will help the future generations. African Americans--Education Black businesses ; Current issues in economics 2206 The Future of Birmingham Well, Mrs. Levison, is there anything else that we have not covered that you would like to briefly talk about that's related to the Movement or to Birmingham, or maybe even solutions? Levison expresses that the communities in Birmingham need to unite to maintain progress, which would include working with Mayor Richard Arrington, Jr. and improving the educational system through enforcing discipline. Arrington Jr., Richard African Americans--Education--Southern States ; Birmingham (Ala.) 2349 Conclusion of Interview Thank you Mrs. Levison. You have been quite a help to us today. Conclusion of the Interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history interview Oral History Annie Levison discusses being active in the movement, including being jailed for sitting in the front of the bus, before having to stop in order to protect her employment. She describes the difficult process she went through to become a registered voter. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Annie Levison for the Birmingham Civil Rights lnstitute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is July 5, 1995. Thank you Mrs. Levison for coming and sitting with us today. LEVISON: Thank you Dr. Huntley. HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking just a few general kinds of questions. Tell me a bit about your parents. Where were your parents from? LEVISON: Well, my mother was from Montgomery, Alabama and my father was from Huntsville. HUNTLEY: Where did they meet? LEVISON: Well, they met around 1928. HUNTLEY: In Birmingham? LEVISON: In Birmingham, yes. HUNTLEY: Oh, so they met half-way? LEVISON: Right. They met on the southside of Birmingham where my mother was staying. HUNTLEY: Tell me just a bit about their education. How much education did each of them have? LEVISON: Well, my mother, like I said, she was born in Montgomery but she came to Birmingham at an early age. And, she went to Cameron school and she went part-time to Industrial. She didn' ; t finish high school. She went to the 11th grade. And, my father only had an eighth grade education. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did they do? LEVISON: Well, my mother worked in the laundry and she was a meat cutter. My father was a truck driver. HUNTLEY: Where did she work? LEVISON: Well, she worked at American Peerless Laundry. And she worked at Mira' ; s Grocery Store. HUNTLEY: American what? LEVISON: Peerless. HUNTLEY: Peerless Laundry? LEVISON: Yes. There were two laundries that were joined together. HUNTLEY: And your father drove a truck within the city? LEVISON: Yes. He drove for Kirkpatrick in later years. But in his early years he worked at Moody' ; s bicycle shop repairing bicycles and fixing new bicycles so they could sell them. Then, he went on to driving a truck. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have? LEVISON: I have one brother and one sister. HUNTLEY: And where did you fit in there? LEVISON: I' ; m the oldest. HUNTLEY: Where did you go to elementary school? LEVISON: I went to Cameron School. HUNTLEY: And where was Cameron located? LEVISON: On 14th Street and Avenue H. HUNTLEY: And Avenue H at that time was what? LEVISON: It was Avenue H, but now it' ; s 8th Avenue South. HUNTLEY: 8th Avenue, University Boulevard. Right where the Student Center sits? LEVISON: That' ; s it. That was Cameron School. HUNTLEY: And what do you remember about Cameron School? LEVISON: Well, I remember my school being very good. I had some good teachers and good meals. Because Mrs. McClung could cook. And I loved to eat her macaroni and cheese. But mostly, too, I remember Mrs. Sheehi. She was my favorite teacher, and Mrs. Jones. I was a pretty good reader and I was a pretty good talker, so I used to kind of bluff my way through and Mrs. Sheehi would let me go from class to class and carry the plays. We didn' ; t have auditoriums in school then. We would have to go from room to room to present plays. And I would go and I would give the briefing of the play. I loved that. HUNTLEY: So you started at an early age being rather outgoing and your teachers recognized that and sort of that enhanced your capability. LEVISON: That' ; s true. HUNTLEY: That' ; s great. And then you went on from Cameron to Ullman? LEVISON: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you were at Ullman for two years and, then, to Parker where you would graduate? LEVISON: Right. HUNTLEY: How did you compare Ullman and Parker? In later years, of course, they became rivals. LEVISON: Yes, in later years. But, in my time Ullman was a good school. Mr. Bell, my favorite principal was very nice and Mr. Whetstone, I' ; ll never forget those two. They were good. Mr. Whetstone taught biology. But, Ullman was a good school because see, the Whites had had it. And we went in right time the Whites got out. So, therefore, it was clean school and they had everything in there we needed. Where otherwise the schools didn' ; t have them. Because even in going to Parker, some of the things we had at Ullman, we didn' ; t have them at Parker. HUNTLEY: Was that because it was a white school? LEVISON: Right. And some of the equipment was already in there, such as your chemistry class. You had all your apparatus and all of these things. Now, we had those at Ullman, but Ullman was newer and more than Parker. HUNTLEY: What was your most vivid memory of your days at Parker? LEVISON: Oh, those were the good days. Well, I liked Mrs. Tate because I used to go to Home Ec with her. And, Mr. White, was a business teacher. He was very, very good and he taught me business, how to file and all. And I' ; ll always remember that and I kept it in my head. In whatever I do, when I go to put anything together, my mind goes back to him and I can balance books and things. That would help me when I started to work, that business course that I took from Mr. White, it stands out with me very vividly. HUNTLEY: You seem to have fond memories of your days in school? LEVISON: I do. Now, I treasure my school days. I really treasure my school days because, I was telling a young lady today that when I was a child coming up, we had good times. You weren' ; t afraid of anything. And we associated with people. In the neighborhood, everybody was everybody' ; s mother, and I enjoyed that. And I just wish it was today, but, you know. HUNTLEY: What neighborhood did you live in? LEVISON: I come from the southside. As we always say, the lower end. I come from 13th Street and 12th Street, that' ; s where I was raised up at. And everybody was everybody' ; s mother. And, when my mother worked and she would leave in the morning and Ms. Mary Sanders would make sure that I would get out and go to school on time. And when I come in in the evening, I stayed in that house until my mother came. And you and nobody else couldn' ; t get in because I knew better. And the neighbors weren' ; t going to let nobody come. And that' ; s the thing that, you know, I liked. And, when she would come in, well, then I would go out in the neighborhood and play with all those children and everything. And we just had a good time. We played baseball and we played marbles and hopscotch and jacks and all that. And we skated a lot and I enjoyed that. HUNTLEY: How would you compare your days in school with what you see happening today with children? LEVISON: It' ; s a vast difference. Now, if the teachers had their way and they were dedicated now, you got to have dedicated teachers. And in my day, we had dedicated teachers. They didn' ; t tell you " ; I got mine, you got to get yours." ; They said, " ; Sit down and get this." ; And when they said it, you listened. And from the experience with raising my own child in the schooling now, no. The children are just out of hand. They don' ; t listen to nobody. And when they found out that the teachers couldn' ; t whip them, they just walked all over the teachers. The teachers can not teach because the parents are not doing their jobs at home. HUNTLEY: You attribute the differences is basically lack of discipline? LEVISON: A lack of discipline now, as compared to when I was coming up. We had discipline. They would send home by you and you better carry that note home. And, if you carried that note home and you had misbehaved in that class, you were going to get a whipping. And you parents didn' ; t have to bring you back to school because the teacher knew you had your whipping. HUNTLEY: Well, we always thought that prior to desegregation of schools, when the schools were " ; integrated" ; then the schools would be better. How do you view that? LEVISON: Well, I know we said it would better if they were integrated. But it has hurt us a lot too. Sure, I like the integration of schooling to the point that we have better books and we get the lessons that they are getting now in science. We didn' ; t have science until we got to the 9th grade. They are having science in the 4th and 5th grade. Now, that is the part that I like. But, the teachers and integration it just don' ; t work together. To me it don' ; t. I feel like I have run across some White teachers in the classrooms, even with my grandson, and they show me anything. They don' ; t have any spunk about themselves. They come in the classroom with old joggly, nasty pants on and their hair standing up on their head. How can you teach a child when you look like you just come out off the field somewhere yourself. And, then, they don' ; t communicate with the children well. Johnny, you just go on. Whatever you say, it' ; s all right. That' ; s not communication. HUNTLEY: Are these Black and White teachers? LEVISON: Black and White teachers. But mostly the teachers that I run across that do this, is the White teachers. Now, I had this experience out here at Bush School with my grandson. I' ; ve ran across that. Now when my son went to Wilson School, Mrs. Rucker was very good with them. She was afraid of us because that' ; s when integration had first started out. HUNTLEY: Was she a White teacher? LEVISON: She was a White principal and she was afraid of them, but they had some good teachers there. They had some very good teachers because my son was slow with math and this teacher, Mrs. Ford, she told me the book to go and get and she went back to the basics with him on this book and this enabled him to help himself and she pulled him up. But now, the teachers don' ; t seem to want to pull the children up. They are afraid and they just let the children do what they want to do. HUNTLEY: Why do you think they are afraid? LEVISON: Because, we as grandparents, the parents are not doing the jobs at home. We are letting the children, if he say, " ; I don' ; t want to eat." ; " ; Okay child, you don' ; t have to eat." ; But see, instead of saying, " ; Johnny, go in there and eat," ; and be firm with it, we are not doing the job. It all stems from home. And, like about this civil rights thing, they just don' ; t, I don' ; t know, we don' ; t teach them at a early age, how we got what we got. HUNTLEY: Are you suggesting that the kids know little about the Movement itself? LEVISON: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: Why do you think that' ; s the case? LEVISON: Because the parents don' ; t talk about it at home. Because the younger parents don' ; t even know anything about it themselves. Anyone that' ; s past 25 now, even I' ; d say 20, they don' ; t know anything about the Movement because we are not educating our children at home about these Movements. They don' ; t know anything about it. HUNTLEY: Do you think that the school system has a role to play in passing this information on? LEVISON: Yes. Because just like we learned the White history, learn the Black history also. Now, I listen all the time to the TV and the radio when people are talking about and read the editorial section -- we don' ; t need to know anything about Blacks, you see it everyday. But, your textbooks are all about White people. It' ; s everything the White man wrote. Nothing is in there about the Blacks. HUNTLEY: Birmingham school system now, is about 90 percent Black. The Administration is primarily Black. What' ; s the problem? LEVISON: They are just not teaching the course. They do not have a Black history course. See, when we were coming up, we had a Black history course, because that' ; s where we learned about Booker T. Washington, George Washington Carver and all. You remember this little red book? I think Woodrow Wilson wrote that book, I believe. But, anyway it was a Black history book. We studied that book. We knew all about all of those. DuBois and all of them, we knew about them. But do our children know about them now? No. They don' ; t know poems and they don' ; t even read the poetry in the book. They don' ; t read these Black backgrounds. They don' ; t do that. You ask them who Booker T. Washington was and they couldn' ; t tell you. They couldn' ; t tell you nothing. Why? Because it' ; s not being taught. And half of the young Black teachers don' ; t even know about it themselves. That' ; s why it' ; s not being taught. HUNTLEY: So you then are suggesting that the educational system at the University level as well as the high school level are wanting for this kind of information? LEVISON: That' ; s right. Do you know I find out who are asking you about the Black history? White people. They are studying our history. We are not studying our own history. You know, they will see you in the store and things and some people can have friendly faces and things, but they will start talking and bring up a conversation and they are worried about the Black history. And they start talking and asking you questions about Black history. HUNTLEY: You mean they are interested in learning the history? LEVISON: That' ; s right. They are interested in learning our history. HUNTLEY: And you are saying that Blacks are not interested in learning their history? LEVISON: No we are not. We are interested in the rap. And interested, like I see them with these pants all half way down and I want to grab everyone of them. I get on my grandson all the time. HUNTLEY: You went on to Parker. After you graduated from high school, what did you do? LEVISON: When I graduated from high school I was so in love. I got that diploma and I wanted to go to college. My father said he didn' ; t have any money and at that time I didn' ; t know about grants and all. There wasn' ; t any grants rather. So I went on and I married. Then, after I married, he said, " ; Well, if you and your husband can' ; t make it, I' ; ll send you to college." ; I said, " ; No, I' ; m married now." ; So that was the end of that and I didn' ; t worry about any more school. HUNTLEY: So did you go to work after that or were you a housewife? LEVISON: I was a housewife for awhile. HUNTLEY: You actually left Birmingham and moved to -- where did you move? LEVISON: St. Louis. I left Birmingham in ' ; 51. HUNTLEY: How long did you remain in St. Louis? LEVISON: I remained in St. Louis until ' ; 57. HUNTLEY: You returned in 1957. In 1956 the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized because the NAACP had been outlawed from operating in the state. So the Movement was organized to sort of fill that void. Did you get actively involved with the Movement at that time? LEVISON: Yes, I did. Because of my pastor and my church, we were involved. HUNTLEY: Who was your pastor? LEVISON: Rev. N. H. Smith, Jr. HUNTLEY: And your church? LEVISON: New Pilgrim Baptist Church. And we were highly involved in it because our choir was singing. When they would meet at our church, we would open up and they would have a hallelujah good time, shouting, singing and praying and talking about the Whites and talking about how we got to pull up by the boot straps and we are going to break these laws and everything. And they would take up money. HUNTLEY: Is this in the mass meetings? LEVISON: In the mass meetings, yes. And we would go from church to church, New St. James and all of them to the mass meetings. HUNTLEY: Well, why did you feel it necessary to get involved when you returned to Birmingham? LEVISON: Well, because it was a vast difference between St. Louis and Birmingham. In St. Louis at that time, you were freer than you were in Birmingham. I could afford to ride the buses and go. And I saw the young people with jobs, waiting on people in the stores and all. In Birmingham that wasn' ; t happening. You could go to any water fountain and drink. Well, in Birmingham we had the Black and White water. So, that' ; s why I said I can go help and break some of these laws and things. HUNTLEY: Some of the segregationists were suggesting that everything was okay in Birmingham until some Black people went north and, then, was influenced by the NAACP and came back with these foreign ideas. Are you suggesting that he was correct? LEVISON: No. I am not going to say he was correct. I said there was a vast difference in the two cities. I was used to drinking the White water and the Black water because that' ; s all we could do here. But we are not going to say that the Blacks come back and just wanted to change. It was time for a change in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: When you returned, were you a registered voter? LEVISON: No, I wasn' ; t. When I returned I became a registered voter in 1957.HUNTLEY: Can you tell me about the experience of becoming a registered voter? LEVISON: Yes. We had to go down there and fill out a long questionnaire. I think it filled about two and a half pages. They were asking questions about the government, about your people, a whole lot of nonsense questions. HUNTLEY: Do you remember any specific questions that were asked on the questionnaire? LEVISON: Not right now, I can' ; t because that was a number of years ago. HUNTLEY: Were all of them valid questions or were there any that was... LEVISON: No. They were like they wanted to know who your grandmother was, who your great grandmother was. And, where did they originate from. They wanted to know all your family history and had any of them ever been in jail and all of this stuff. And, then, you had to put down some of the amendments and everything. They would ask you about that. And they would ask you questions out of the Constitution. HUNTLEY: Were these all written, or did you have someone to... LEVISON: They were typed on a piece of paper. A long piece of paper. HUNTLEY: You had to actually write the answers to the questions? LEVISON: Right. HUNTLEY: No one was asking you these questions verbally? LEVISON: No. You were writing. And, then, you had to pay some poll tax, $1.50 before you could become a registered voter. HUNTLEY: Did you pass the first time? LEVISON: I passed the first time. HUNTLEY: You became active in the Movement, you told me why. You thought it was just that time, were you ever arrested? LEVISON: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me the circumstances of your arrest? LEVISON: From riding the bus. I believe we were around the first ones to ride the bus. We had boarded the bus. Our pastors carried us, Rev. Smith carried us downtown. So, then we boarded the bus at Second Avenue and we met up with Rev. Phifer, the Hendricks brothers and Mrs. Brown. The bus was full of people and we sat right on the front because I sat on the side opposite the driver. You know they had the two long sides, and Rev. Phifer and Hendricks sat on one. And Mrs. Brinson and all and we just set right up to the front. So the man looked back and said, " ; I' ; m not going to move this bus until you all move." ; And we didn' ; t move. A lot of the Blacks on there said, " ; Why don' ; t y' ; all get up and come on back?" ; HUNTLEY: Now, this is immediately after you returned from St. Louis, so you are talking about 1957? LEVISON: That' ; s right, in ' ; 57. It was October or the first part of November HUNTLEY: Was this as a result of what had taken place in Montgomery? LEVISON :No, Montgomery hadn' ; t had there' ; s I don' ; t think then. HUNTLEY: Yes. They had there' ; s and there' ; s was over at the time. And the court had ruled that segregation of bus seating was illegal. LEVISON: I was in St. Louis when Montgomery was going on. Well, I guess it was prior to that then. Rev. Smith and the others said they wanted to test the bus out. So that Sunday he asked for volunteers and didn' ; t many people come out there. And I was supposed to be teaching school, kindergarten at the church and I left the job, Pete and I, we went on and got put in jail. We didn' ; t know we were going to jail, though. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. The bus driver said that he would not move the bus. Did he threaten you? LEVISON: Yes. He told us, he said, " ; If you don' ; t go back to that back, I' ; m going to take all of y' ; all and put you in jail." ; So we still didn' ; t say nothing. And Rev. Smith got off the bus because he saw there were going to be some problems so he was calling the head people so they could come. Rev. Phifer stayed on the bus so we just started singing. HUNTLEY: What about the people in the back, the Black people? LEVISON: Well, they got angry with us because they wanted to go to work Over the Mountain. And they was telling us to get off the bus and come on to the back or get off that bus. So, we just ignored them. And we just sat there and we just sang. So finally, they emptied the whole bus. The whole bus was emptied and the people from the car bond came down and they begged us to get off the bus and we didn' ; t move. So, then they called the policeman and we didn' ; t move for him. There were some nasty police during that time because they would call us niggers. They told us, " ; niggers, go to the back of this bus." ; And we didn' ; t move. We just went right on and sat there and sang. And Rev. Phifer prayed. So they told us " ; We are going to carry y' ; all to jail." ; So they brought us on to the bus barn, it was on 4th Avenue then. And, they brought us down on 4th Avenue and 13th Street to the barn, and, then, they brought the paddy wagon and put us in and we went to jail. HUNTLEY: Where did they take you? LEVISON: To the city jail. HUNTLEY: Downtown or southside? LEVISON: Southside. HUNTLEY: Southside. And how long did you remain? LEVISON: That was on a Monday and it was about 12:00, so we stayed there until about 3:00 that Tuesday morning before day. And when brother Shaw was rich and he put up his funeral home because the Movement didn' ; t have too much money then. And they had to take up whatever they could and that wasn' ; t enough. So they got us out and we came home. And, then, we had to go back to trial that Friday. HUNTLEY: You were released at 3:00 in the morning? LEVISON: In the morning. 3:00 that morning. HUNTLEY: Why do you think you were released at 3:00 in the morning? LEVISON: They were being nasty. They could have released us earlier but they were just being nasty. They had come up to get us around about 10:00 that night. HUNTLEY: So you were released and, then, you went to court that same week? LEVISON: That same week. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. LEVISON: The court was set up for 11:00 that night and it was around about 12:30 or something to 1:00 when they tried us. They locked us back up because the judge was out of town or somebody was out of town, whoever they were supposed to get a writ of habeas corpus from. And lawyer Billingsley and Shores were the lawyers for us then and they locked us back up and we had to stay in there until Monday. And, when we come back there that Monday night to trial, it was 12:00 again that night ; . HUNTLEY: So you were actually locked up after you had returned for your court date? LEVISON: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: And you spent the weekend in jail? LEVISON: That' ; s right. A whole weekend in jail. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the experience. What was it like being in jail? LEVISON: It' ; s an experience nobody wants. It was a nasty place. It was filthy in that jail. And the food, the trays they give you to put the food on it, they were just as nasty as they could be. They wasn' ; t washing those trays and the food wasn' ; t even fit to eat. They come around and cut the lights out. It just was a miserable thing. And those little hard beds in there. HUNTLEY: Someone said that they were attempting to teach you a lesson? LEVISON: That' ; s it. They say you won' ; t come back no more. They said, if we teach y' ; all a lesson, y' ; all won' ; t come back here no more. But, that didn' ; t stop the people. HUNTLEY: It didn' ; t stop the Movement at all. LEVISON: No, it did not. They went by throngs later. HUNTLEY: This was obviously very early in the Movement and that was really just the beginning, laying the foundation at that time. After that, were you involved in the Movement? LEVISON: Yes. I would continue to go to the meetings and pay money and things like that. I would do that. I marched with some signs. But then I stopped marching with them. I would just go to the meetings. I left and went back to St. Louis and, then, I came back home. I stayed in St. Louis again about one year. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me what the typical mass meeting was like? LEVISON: Well, they would be packed. You could not find standing room. And they would have a lot of singing, hand clapping and shouting and all. And, then, people would get up and tell different things that had happen to them and, then, they would map out strategies of what to do in order to break segregation and everything and how to get your rights and things together. They would tell you that if a policeman approach you, don' ; t try to resist him. Just be humble and go along meekly. Because at that time that' ; s when they were beating you and everything. So they would tell them not to resist. And, when you go places, do not go alone but go in groups. So that way you wouldn' ; t be attacked by yourself. You would have somebody to be a witness if anything did happen to you. HUNTLEY: Were other members of your family involved in the Movement? LEVISON: Well, my brother got arrested. He went out there with them when the school children was being arrested. He got arrested, too. HUNTLEY: He was one of the school children? LEVISON: Right. HUNTLEY: Where did they take him? LEVISON: To the fairgrounds. HUNTLEY: At that time what kind of work were you doing? LEVISON: Well, I was an insurance worker then. I was working for Protective Industrial. was writing insurance. HUNTLEY: I see. LEVISON: I had left the kindergarten at the church and I started writing insurance. HUNTLEY: So you were writing insurance during the ' ; 63 demonstrations? LEVISON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were you a participant during those demonstrations? LEVISON: No. I was not. HUNTLEY: When you saw your brother going to jail, what kind of emotions did that bring out in you? LEVISON: Well, it disturbed me very much. And mother told me go home. Rev. King and them almost missed me when they was saying .... HUNTLEY: What do you mean " ; almost missed you?" ; LEVISON: I couldn' ; t see myself turning the other cheek then. I couldn' ; t. And I couldn' ; t stand for White people to touch me and I not hit them back. And, so he just about missed me because when they turned that water on those children out there and all, and when they was herding them like they were cattle or something and had those old prongs with them, well I got angry with them about that. Because it wasn' ; t right. HUNTLEY: But you decided that you would not participate, but were you still attending the mass meetings? LEVISON: I was attending the meetings, yes. But I could not participate because I would have fought back and he said he wanted non-violent people. HUNTLEY: Were there other activities that you participated in? Were you supportive of the Movement? LEVISON: Yes. I was very supportive by paying the money and going to the meetings. was very supportive of that. And, if they had any programs or something, I would go to that, but other than that, marching, I didn' ; t do any more. HUNTLEY: Now, you are still a member of New Pilgrim? LEVISON: Yes, I' ; m still there. HUNTLEY: So your pastor was still actively involved and your church was actively involved. LEVISON: Very much so. HUNTLEY: From your perspective, looking back on this period of the Movement, how would you, if you had the ability to change, for instance the day that you were arrested and the method that was utilized to get you all arrested, or other things, other methods that were used during the Movement, would you change any of those things if you had the ability to change them and maybe do something different? LEVISON: Well, during that time, no. That was effective. But now, it' ; s not effective. We need to sat up other strategies now because going to jail don' ; t mean anything anymore to them. And, it' ; s going to come from the power structure of ourselves and our monies. This is where you will hurt and this is what I would change now. HUNTLEY: How do you mean? LEVISON: I would teach the Black people how to keep their monies in their pockets and keep it in the Black areas. I would. If you notice now, Birmingham, the Whites, because we got a Black mayor, they all moving. All of the businesses are moving out of Birmingham. And, we Blacks are going over there to Hooverr, I don' ; t go to Hoover, and I would teach my dollar not to go to Hoover. I would teach my dollars to say right where I am in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Are you suggesting then that economics is the key at this point? LEVISON: That' ; s the key. HUNTLEY: How would you do that? If you keep your money in Birmingham, then you wouldn' ; t go to the Galleria. LEVISON: No, I would not. I would go out here in Five Points. But we, this has always been my theory. We need to get our own factories. It' ; s plenty of people in Birmingham can sew. Black people can really sew. We need to set up and we can give our people jobs. We can create ourselves, within ourselves and we as Black people need to buy from one another. But, first, we the Black people got to know how to treat each other. Then, when you can treat a person right, they will come into your business. If you can do that, you' ; ll have it made. Let the White man I don' ; t have to depend upon you. Like you get your material from Japan, I can get mine, too. Because the field is open. That man in Japan will sell you material just like he would sell it to that White man. All he' ; s looking for is that all mighty dollar. And when we learn that and we plant our own vegetables and things and grow them and put our stands up and, then, we buy from these stands, we can make it. HUNTLEY: In 1963 we were searching for a change in the status quo. That change came about. Something though, since then, went wrong. What happened that we are no further along economically today than we are? LEVISON: Education. We didn' ; t continue to educate our Black children in the way of letting them know from whence they came. Like we were saying before. When the children got up, nobody was there to tell them anything. Okay. The older people were going to the Movements, but we didn' ; t bring our young children to the Movement, so this is what broke down. Because we did not continue to educate our children in mass. Just like they went to jail in mass, we should have kept them into the Movement in mass. And we older ones move off the scene, but be there to lecture and let one of them become a president of the Movement but we be there to kind of guide them if they need our guidance when we see that they are going to the far left. So this is what we do, we get into the position, and we stay there instead of passing it own. So, the young people say, well they are not going to let me do anything, I' ; m not interested, I' ; ll do my own thing. So this is where the break down come in. HUNTLEY: Do you see any changes in that mentality today? Are we moving in that direction? Are we stagnate? Are we moving backwards? LEVISON: Well, we are kind of stagnate and some of the young people are taking a hold and coming on into the business. Gaynell Hendricks and them, I noticed they are just young thriving people. HUNTLEY: Who is Gaynell Hendricks? LEVISON: They have the daycare centers. They are in Homewood, Bessemer and Birmingham. She is a young lady and she is pushing. She is striving hard. And we got a lot of Black business, but I just brought her up because she' ; s out front. And, I noticed, when I went to this Black business chambers, they had a lot of Black business in there, but a lot of Black business is not known to us. Now, this Mahogany Card Store, I go to it out in Fairfield, because I know that the only way they are going to get up is by the Blacks pushing them, and this is what we need to do. Now, some of the young people are moving forward, but we old ones, we still, sit back and won' ; t go out there and help them. This is what we got to do. Now, if I want a hat I just as soon go out to Western Hills Mall to Eva' ; s, a young Black girl, and I just as soon give her $150.00 or $300.00 for a hat as to give 5th Avenue $300 or $400 for a hat. See what I mean. So this is what I' ; m saying. We need to go and cater to our Blacks. The young people who are trying to bring us up by the bootstraps. Help them to come on up. HUNTLEY: So, although we did accomplish some things during the civil rights movement, we simply didn' ; t go far enough? LEVISON: No. We did not go far enough. When we got that little freedom, it kind of went to our heads. Instead of sticking right there and going on, like when we boycotted that bus and all, they got what they wanted. Like I say, if they keep their money in their pocket, they can get what they want. HUNTLEY: Do you see that happening today? LEVISON: No. I don' ; t. HUNTLEY: Economic boycotts? LEVISON: I don' ; t see any. See, we don' ; t have any going. HUNTLEY: Is there a possibility? Is anyone talking about that kind of thing? LEVISON: I haven' ; t heard anybody say anything, but if they got in there, I would sure give them my soap box because this is what we need. It' ; s enough Black people in this city that has money to start a business. Get those manufacturers and things going. Venture out. Stop so many funeral homes and get something else. You got too many funeral homes in Birmingham. Every time you look on the corner it' ; s a new funeral home coming up. Put that money in something else so we can stop killing each other. The ones killing each other is because they don' ; t have jobs. They are sitting at home with nothing to do. They are walking around in the streets and they want these gold chains and things so they are going to rob and steal and kill to get it. We can stop that. And the White man is bringing the dope in. He' ; s bringing the dope into us and we don' ; t have no better sense because in my neighborhood it' ; s one right around there in a red truck and if I could just get him one time, he wouldn' ; t come back in Titusville, no more. HUNTLEY: You just need to get his license plate and give it to the police. LEVISON: Well, they know it. They know it because every house he goes to, is a Black house. And they know that' ; s a dope house. HUNTLEY: It' ; s known what is happening, it' ; s just not that effort to change those things. LEVISON: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: Well, Mrs. Levison is there anything else that we have not covered that you would like to briefly talk about that' ; s related to the Movement or to Birmingham, or maybe even solutions? Anything we have not touched on? LEVISON: Well, I think we' ; ve touched on just about everything. Like I was saying, we got to come together to put Birmingham on the move. What hurts me about Birmingham, we see what' ; s happening but it looks like nobody is getting the solution to help it and to move it on. And, we got to help our mayor. Now, we got a good mayor and we got to get in there, stop fighting each other and fighting him and trying to be on the top and all this stuff and put our ideas with him. If he was to call a community meeting in Titusville and wants some ideas, I would sure be there to help give him some. And, like the policemen, they haven' ; t come to Titusville yet to have their meetings, but I' ; m waiting on them to come so I can tell them about these trucks and things come through the neighborhood. They need to know. And, our children. I just look at Washington School. That' ; s a school that really needs to be closed. HUNTLEY: Why? LEVISON: It' ; s no discipline in there. Those little old boys that sell drugs are there. And the policemen sees them when they are not in school and it' ; s a bunch of them. They wear red and black and they wear white and their clothes half off of them. They walk up and down the street when school is in. And I know they see it and the policeman stay there all the time. So get them old boys, they are not going to school and children are scared to go to school because they are going to jump on them. A child can' ; t get his lesson and he' ; s scared to go in school. And, Ms. Yarber and them just can' ; t seem to handle it. So they need some stronger men. We need some men in the school system. Some men who are not afraid to handle some of these people and things out here. Because the ladies, they know these boys and things will jump on these lady teachers. So we need to revamp that. And we just as a community need to come together. And I am a very religious person. I pray all the time about things, but the Lord tell you to get up off your knees sometime and do something about it and it' ; s just time for us to do something about it. HUNTLEY: Thank you Mrs. Levison. You have been quite a help to us today. LEVISON: I hope so. HUNTLEY: We will be in touch with you. Thank you. LEVISON: All right. Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ALevison1995.xml ALevison1995.xml
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Annie Levison
Description
An account of the resource
Annie Levison discusses being active in the movement, including being jailed for sitting in the front of the bus, before having to stop in order to protect her employment. She describes the difficult process she went through to become a registered voter.
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19950705L
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Birmingham City Jail (Birmingham, Ala.)
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1995-07-05
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video
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a8209e486b1c71898b1d5bf0f030a3fe
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
Type
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
Interviewee
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Annie Marie Butler
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Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AMButler1995.xml
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Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights
New Hope Baptist Church
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5.4 June 7, 1995 Annie Marie Butler 19950607B 0:28:50 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights New Hope Baptist Church Annie Marie Butler Horace Huntley Video 1:|19(6)|42(9)|61(8)|75(16)|89(11)|106(1)|120(1)|132(6)|147(12)|166(14)|182(15)|196(12)|215(4)|239(2)|253(13)|267(4)|281(14)|297(13)|314(9)|336(8)|352(2)|385(2)|401(2)|411(9)|424(8)|433(11)|454(2)|467(12) 0 https://youtu.be/Q1RyJIwHQTA YouTube video English 26 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Annie Marie Butler for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 38 Background and Family Life I just want to start by asking you a few general questions about your family. Butler discusses where she grew up in Avondale and what her parents did for a living. Avondale (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Tennessee Coal, Iron, and Railroad Company Birmingham (Ala.) 256 Educational Journey Tell me about your schooling. Where did you start elementary school? Butler recalls where she went to school and what her job was when she graduated high school. Parker High School ; Ullman High School Avondale (Birmingham, Ala.) 409 Involvement in the Alabama Christian Movement In 1956, when the NAACP was outlawed from operating in the State of Alabama, the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized. Butler discusses her involvement in the ACM and the relationship between Reverend Shuttlesworth and Bull Connor. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 572 Her Son's Involvement in Integrating Phillips High School Then, in '57, Shuttlesworth and Rev. Pfiffer attempted to enroll some children into Phillips High School, do you know anything about that? Butler recalls her son going to Phillips High School with Reverend Shuttlesworth to integrate the school. Phillips High School ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Integration 683 Preparation for the Integration of Phillips High School Well, can you tell me what kind of preparation was made? Butler describes the preparation for the integration and how the children went to the hospital after Reverend Shuttlesworth was attacked. Phillips High School ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Integration 816 Losing Her Job In looking at how that developed, did that sort of solidify your participation in the Movement? Butler states that she lost her job due to her involvement in the movement and how she became director of the kindergarten at her church. Civil rights movement ; Stone, Herman Birmingham (Ala.) 984 Attending Mass Meetings Was New Hope one of the churches where the mass meetings would be held? Butler recalls what the mass meetings were like at her church and how the police would be there to monitor the meetings. Civil rights movement ; Mass meetings ; New Hope Baptist Church Birmingham (Ala.) 1108 Membership Committee and Her Family's Involvement You were a member of the Membership Committee Butler discusses her involvement with the membership committee and how her family members went to meetings but did not participate. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Birmingham (Ala.) 1201 Aftermath of the Attempt at Integrating Phillips High School I know after your son, along with Shuttlesworth's children and Rev. Pfiffer's children, they attempted to integrate Phillips High School, and you were not successful in that, what did you do? Butler recalls how the movement filed a lawsuit against the school and tells how only her oldest son participated in the integration. Integration ; Phillips High School ; Rev. Pfiffer ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 1295 Her Church's Involvement in the Movement You say you were a member of New Hope? That means that your church was actively involved in the Movement? Butler states that her church was very active in the movement and how people supported her pastor's efforts. New Hope Baptist Church ; Stone, Herman Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1329 Integrating Schools and Organizing Sit-ins If I were to ask you what was your most vivid memory of the Movement days, what would you say? Butler recalls what she remembers most about the movement. Civil rights movement ; Integration ; Sit-ins Birmingham (Ala.) 1451 Memories of Her Family Being Threatened If there is anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with during this conversation. Butler recalls her family being threatened over her son trying to integrate Phillips High School. Integration ; Phillips High School Birmingham (Ala.) ; Racism--United States 1673 Conclusion of Interview Okay. We will be in touch with you about that. Thank you very much for taking your time. Interview is concluded. Oral History Annie Marie Butler discusses losing her job as a result of being involved with the Movement. Her son attempted to integrate Phillips High School with Rev. Shuttlesworth and his family. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Annie Marie Butler for the Birmingham Civil Rights lnstitute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 7, 1995. Mrs. Butler, thank you for taking time out of your schedule to come and be with us today. BUTLER: Thank you. HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking you a few general questions about your family. Where your parents from? BUTLER: They were from south Alabama, Marengo County, called Dayton, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Both of them were from Dayton? BUTLER: Both of them. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Dayton? BUTLER: Yes, I was born in Dayton, Alabama. HUNTLEY: When did you come to Birmingham? BUTLER: I came to Birmingham when I was 11 years old. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have? BUTLER: I didn' ; t have any brothers and sisters. I am an only child. HUNTLEY: Did they spoil you? BUTLER: Well, I was rotten. HUNTLEY: Tell me just a little about your parents' ; education. How much education did they have? BUTLER: My mother and father didn' ; t have a high school education, but they did go to school. I don' ; t remember how many years they went, but they did go to school. They knew basic reading and writing. HUNTLEY: Most Black people didn' ; t go to school formally during those times in ways that we are doing today. What about their occupations? What kind of work did your mother do? BUTLER: When my mother was young they all did farming. And, then, when we moved to Birmingham my father worked in the mine and my mother did private homework. HUNTLEY: Was he a coal miner or an ore miner? BUTLER: Coal miner. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in as a child growing up? BUTLER: Avondale. HUNTLEY: What mine did he work, do you know? BUTLER: No. It was in Overton, Alabama. I don' ; t know the name of it. HUNTLEY: You then were brought up in Avondale. How would you describe your community? BUTLER: The community was all Black. We didn' ; t have any other races in the community. But it was a pretty nice community. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did people do? Were most of them miners? BUTLER: A lot of them worked for the Tennessee Company, I think. HUNTLEY: Oh, TCI? BUTLER: TCI. And there was another place, Stock Valve and Fitting because that' ; s right out there in Avondale. That' ; s where my children' ; s daddy worked. HUNTLEY: I see. Did your mother work outside at the home when you were growing up? BUTLER: She worked in a private home for the White people. HUNTLEY: In that general area? BUTLER: Around in the Avondale, East Avondale and Woodlawn. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your schooling. Where did you start elementary school? BUTLER: It was called East Avondale, it was Avondale school but it was in East Avondale, not directly just right in the center Avondale, but it was called East Avondale and that' ; s where I went and graduated to the ninth grade. Then I went to Ullman High School on the Southside. And at that time we were going to Ullman two years and then we transferred over to Parker two years. HUNTLEY: You graduated from Parker then? BUTLER: I went to Ullman two years, I went to Parker a year, then I dropped out of school and I went to night school. I finished in the night school. HUNTLEY: How would you describe Ullman High School and Parker High School during that time? BUTLER: Well, to me they were real nice schools because that' ; s all we knew about at the time. So both of them were real nice schools. HUNTLEY: Were there any particular teachers that you remember most in those schools, and if so, why would you remember them? BUTLER: I remember Ms. Hayes. I don' ; t remember her first name. I think she was an algebra teacher. I was real fond of algebra and I remember her. As far as the rest of them, I didn' ; t remember those in Parker too much. HUNTLEY: After high school, did you go on and get a job? BUTLER: That' ; s when I got the job at Robert James Company. HUNTLEY: What did you do at Robert James Company? BUTLER: At Robert James Company I did the errands. I used to go downtown and pick up the mail for them or go pick up things that they needed. HUNTLEY: In 1956 when the NAACP was outlawed from operating In the State of Alabama, the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized. Were you actively involved at that time? BUTLER: I joined the Alabama Christian Movement at that time and we enjoyed going to the meetings. Our church was involved and that' ; s how I got involved with it because our church was Involved. And each Monday night we would go to different churches and have this meeting. Rev. Shuttlesworth would have different speakers. And, the police and all would be there and he talked about Bull Conner, a lot. Because he was the mayor, I think he was the mayor. HUNTLEY: He was Police Commissioner. BUTLER: Commissioner of the city. It wasn' ; t fun what we were doing but just to hear him talk about Bull Conner was just amazing. HUNTLEY: What did he say about Bull Conner? BUTLER: Well, he would just make remarks that he was against the Black people. HUNTLEY: So Shuttlesworth would make fun but those were probably very serious kinds of things that he was doing. BUTLER: Right. Because a lot of people was afraid for him to be talking like he did. HUNTLEY: How did you look at Shuttlesworth? Was he different than most other pastors that you knew at the time? BUTLER: Well, I liked him and enjoyed him. But it seemed to me like he had a lot of nerve to do things -- to say things and do things that he did. A lot of the pastors were afraid to come out in the open with what they had to say. And I believe he was real in what he was saying. HUNTLEY: Were you involved with the NAACP prior to getting involved with the Alabama Christian Movement? BUTLER: No, I wasn' ; t. HUNTLEY: Then, in ' ; 57, Shuttlesworth and Rev. Pfiffer attempted to enroll some children into Phillips High School, do you know anything about that? BUTLER: Yes. My son was -- I had assigned for him to be enrolled. HUNTLEY: So he was one of the students that were attempting to enroll in Phillips in 1957? BUTLER: Yes, he was. HUNTLEY: Then he was with Shuttlesworth the morning that he went up to Phillips and was attacked by the mobs? BUTLER: Yes, he was in the car. HUNTLEY: Were you there? BUTLER: Well, like I say, I was driving for the Robert James Company and I had to go downtown. I knew the time, they didn' ; t announce when they were going to go. I don' ; t know how it was when they were going, but I did drive down that way. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me what kind of feeling that a mother has knowing that her son was at Phillips High School? And of course, looking at this in the context of these times, that was a rather dangerous place to be at that particular time. Why did you decide to allow your son to be a part of it? BUTLER: I agreed that he do it because I wanted the schools to be integrated because it just wasn' ; t fair the way they would treat the Black kids and they couldn' ; t go to all the schools. They didn' ; t have the things at the Black schools that they had at the White schools. HUNTLEY: Well, can you tell me what kind of preparation was made? What happened the night before the kids were going down to Phillips with Shuttlesworth? What did the Movement or Rev. Shuttlesworth or others, do to help prepare you all for that encounter? BUTLER: They called us and told us what time. I don' ; t remember whether they picked them up or whether we took them to a certain place but they told us what time to have them ready. HUNTLEY: Were you all just selected or did you volunteer or how were you chosen? BUTLER: It was volunteer. HUNTLEY: You volunteered. So they left that morning and went up to Phillips High School. We know that Shuttlesworth was attacked and beaten, his wife was stabbed in the hip at the time. How did your son react? What did he say about this experience? BUTLER: It seemed to me like he was a little frightened by what had happened down there from looking at the picture that was in the newspaper. HUNTLEY: His picture was in the paper? BUTLER: Yes. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances? Was he inside the car or what did the picture show? BUTLER: It didn' ; t show inside the car. It showed them, I imagine they made these pictures at the hospital. HUNTLEY: So they were taken to the hospital. Were they attacked? BUTLER: No. They weren' ; t attacked. HUNTLEY: But Shuttlesworth was taken to the hospital? BUTLER: Right. And, then, they took the children to the hospital, too. HUNTLEY: I see. Did they take them there to be checked over or for what reason? BUTLER: I think they took them to be checked over but they didn' ; t harm the kids at all. HUNTLEY: In looking at how that develop, did that sort of solidify your participation in the Movement? Were you sold on being a participant in the Movement? Because I know now, as a result of your name appearing In the paper, you were terminated from your job, is that correct? BUTLER:That' ; s correct. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me how that came about? What happened? BUTLER: What happened. When they saw it in the paper they -- I am sure when they saw it in the paper because they told me right after, not the same day, but a day or two later, then they told me they didn' ; t need me anymore. But they didn' ; t say why. HUNTLEY: They didn' ; t give you any reason? BUTLER:Well, I was kind of like a part-time employee anyway and so they didn' ; t tell me why. But I knew what it was. HUNTLEY: So you then, being terminated and you had a child to raise, what kind of strain did that put on you and your family? BUTLER: Well, it wasn' ; t really a strain because they were getting a check. Their father was dead and they gave them a check until they got 18 years old. HUNTLEY: So it really didn' ; t strain your family economically? BUTLER:Not really. HUNTLEY: Well what happened after that? Did you find another job? BUTLER:After that, I found a job at a clothing store and I worked there awhile until my pastor, Rev. Herman Stone decided to open a kindergarten in our church so they asked me would I be director of the kindergarten. And so I stopped working where I was working and went on and started working at the church. It was a built thing because we didn' ; t have but a few children so we weren' ; t making much money. So, what we did, what they did, they said, " ; Whatever we make, we' ; ll divide it with you." ; And so this is how it got started. So the kindergarten finally grew and grew after we moved to the southside and then we moved to Westend and it grew up until I was making a real good salary when I retired. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of? BUTLER: New Hope Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: Was New Hope one of the churches where the mass meetings would be held? BUTLER: Yes. It was held at New Hope, New Pilgrim, Groveland and Rev. Phiffer' ; s church, I don' ; t remember the name of his church. All churches would not participate, but New Hope, New Pilgrim, I remember those. HUNTLEY: So I am assuming you attended the mass meetings on a regular basis? BUTLER: I attended each Monday night. HUNTLEY: How would you describe the typical mass meeting? What was it like? BUTLER: Well, it was kind of exciting because this was something new going on in Birmingham. It was really exciting to be there and not be afraid. We were not afraid. So they would have more policemen there every Monday night. And, you would think that they would be guarding -- I really don' ; t know what they were there for. HUNTLEY: But they were there in the meeting? BUTLER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were they taking notes of what was going on in the meeting? BUTLER: Well, I imagine they did, but I don' ; t remember. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of the demonstrations? I know there were bus demonstrations where they actually sat on the busses. Then they went and sat in at Loveman' ; s, Newberry' ; s and places like that. BUTLER: No. I didn' ; t participate in any of the sit-ins. HUNTLEY: You were a member of the Membership Committee? BUTLER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. How did that work? BUTLER: You would ask people to join the Christian Movement and I think it was by paying $1.00 to be a member. The churches would always be packed. HUNTLEY: So that' ; s where most of your memberships would come from, the various churches? BUTLER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate? BUTLER: No. My mother and aunt went to the meetings, but they didn' ; t participate. They participated in marching from New Pilgrim down to the city jail, my mother did. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of those? BUTLER: No. I didn' ; t participate in that. HUNTLEY: You were usually working at the time? Or why was it you did not participate in the demonstrations? BUTLER: Well, after I started the day care I had to be there all day. So I didn' ; t go to any of the marches or demonstrations. HUNTLEY: Let me back up just a bit. I know after your son, along with Shuttlesworth' ; s children and Rev. Phiffer' ; s children, they attempted to integrate Phillips High School, and you were not successful in that, what did you do? BUTLER: After they went there, we knew when they went there they were not going to be enrolled anyway. So we kept them out until after then, then they went on to their regular schools. HUNTLEY: Did you file a suit? BUTLER: The Movement filed a suit but I didn' ; t file any particular suit. HUNTLEY: But your names appeared in the paper as being participants in that particular effort to desegregate the schools? BUTLER: Right. HUNTLEY: How many children did you have? BUTLER: At the time I had two. But I have four now. HUNTLEY: Was that your oldest son? BUTLER: The oldest son, the one that participated, then I have another one that' ; s two years younger than him. HUNTLEY: Did he participate at all? BUTLER: He didn' ; t participate. I let Walter participate because he was ready to go in high school at the time. HUNTLEY: So where did he eventually go to high school? BUTLER: He went to Ullman High School. He graduated there. HUNTLEY: You say you were a member of New Hope? That means that your church was actively involved in the Movement? BUTLER: That' ; s right. My church was active. My pastor was Rev. Hunter Stone. HUNTLEY: He was very active? BUTLER: In the Movement. HUNTLEY: People basically supported his efforts? BUTLER: Yes. Whatever the pastor did we supported. HUNTLEY: If I were to ask you what was your most vivid memory of the Movement days, what would you say? What do you remember most about the activities of the Civil Rights Movement that you were involved? BUTLER: What I remember mostly is about trying to integrate the schools. HUNTLEY: Why does that stand out so much in your mind? BUTLER: It stands out because my son was involved. HUNTLEY: So that would make it stand out then. That brings it very close to home. What benefits did you, your family and community realize as a result of the Movement? BUTLER: What benefits? HUNTLEY: Yes. BUTLER: I think some of the benefits are what we have now. You know they had the sit-ins at the lunch counters. We used to go downtown and at Newberrys we couldn' ; t go up to the counter and order something. You had to stand at the end where the big jug was located. That was the only way you could be waited on. You had to go to the back doors and all that. And I think about the Christian Movement being organized and we worked in it that this brought about a change. HUNTLEY: And of course, you would then suggest that the Movement, your assessment of the Movement would be one of success rather than failure? BUTLER: Right. I think it was. HUNTLEY: Because those things did change. If there is anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with during this conversation. I know that you were quite active. You had participated in all of the Monday night meetings. You knew many of the people. How would you sort of characterize that particular period of time in terms of the stagnation of Birmingham in race relations and then in terms of the change? How would you characterize it? Would it be an era that you would like to see renewed? Would it be something that you would not want to see happen again? How would you look at that period? BUTLER: I wouldn' ; t like to see it renewed or happen again because we went through a lot of changes. Back then after we signed for the children to go to Phillips High School, then there was some of the Movement people that was guards that had to watch our houses at night. They would stay out there all night long, watching to see that nothing happened to us and I wouldn' ; t like to see that go back through that again. HUNTLEY: Your family was threatened? BUTLER: Yes. We had threatening telephone calls and stuff like that. HUNTLEY: How did that affect you and your children at the time? BUTLER: Well, really I was young and it didn' ; t bother me too much, because I wasn' ; t afraid. And the children, I don' ; t think they were afraid. HUNTLEY: At that time, you were living in what community? BUTLER: Avondale. HUNTLEY: In Avondale at the time as well. Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with? BUTLER: No. I can' ; t think of nothing else. HUNTLEY: You said you had an article of the -- BUTLER: Yes. The newspaper clip of -- it' ; s a newspaper where it started on the front sheet of this where they took them to the hospital. It started on the front page and I have the second page. I don' ; t know what happened to the front page. But anyway it has a picture of Rev. Shuttlesworth and my son, Avery and Nathaniel Lee and the Shuttlesworth girls in this picture that they made while they were at the hospital. I think they were sitting on a bench at the hospital. HUNTLEY: Do you have any other items related to the Movement or the development of Birmingham that you would like to donate to the institute? If so, you can always just get in touch with either myself or the office. BUTLER: I would like to donate the newspaper because it does have some information in it. But I really came out and forgot to bring it with me. Because I made some copies of it. HUNTLEY: Okay. We will be in touch with you about that. Thank you very much for taking your time. BUTLER: Thank you. HUNTLEY: We will definitely want to talk with you at some later date and make copies of these and let you look over them and we would just be in touch with you. Thank you. BUTLER: Thank you very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AMButler1995.xml AMButler1995.xml
Dublin Core
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Annie Marie Butler
Description
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Annie Marie Butler discusses losing her job as a result of being involved with the Movement. Her son attempted to integrate Phillips High School with Rev. Shuttlesworth and his family.
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19950607B
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011
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1995-06-07
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video
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https://bcriohp.org/files/original/a490b165f73e9d5c471b85641987dd46.jpg
7761ac53923ee5706297a90f56d7729d
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Laura Anderson
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Annie Pearl Avery
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Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=APAvery2014.xml
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Voter registration
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5.3 June 3, 2014 Annie Pearl Avery Interviewed on June 3, 2014 20140603A 1:26:02 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Emily Reynolds Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.)--1960-1970. Freedom Rides, 1961 Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Voter registration Annie Pearl Avery Laura Anderson Video 1:|25(10)|37(5)|49(15)|61(14)|73(7)|84(12)|93(14)|108(9)|122(3)|133(1)|143(5)|154(3)|184(2)|193(3)|201(9)|211(14)|220(4)|229(13)|237(6)|248(2)|263(9)|275(14)|290(4)|302(14)|313(10)|331(15)|342(1)|348(12)|358(9)|372(1)|383(9)|393(9)|406(6)|420(9)|425(13)|437(7)|456(5)|474(6)|479(9)|489(6)|498(3)|506(7)|519(3)|530(3)|541(2)|548(7)|564(12)|578(5)|590(6)|597(3)|610(1)|618(9)|632(2)|643(12)|657(7)|665(11)|676(13)|685(11)|693(2)|702(8)|710(11)|718(7)|724(4)|734(4)|744(4)|752(8)|765(14)|773(11)|786(2)|797(3)|808(14)|817(11)|827(2)|849(5)|863(3)|869(16)|890(14)|907(6)|918(9)|944(10)|956(1)|970(2)|975(9)|984(13)|994(13)|1019(3) 0 https://youtu.be/Zid57bJBq4E YouTube video English 43 Interview Introduction All I want to say up front is that I'm Laura Anderson, and today is Tuesday, June 3rd, 2014, and I am here with the famous Annie Pearl Avery Introduction to the interview African Americans--Civil rights African Americans--Civil rights 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 72 Childhood Segregation Experiences So, you were born here in Birmingham? Describing childhood experiences with segregation in Alabama. African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.) African Americans--Civil rights 241 Initial Movement Involvement They said young people were leading the sit-ins and the Freedom Ride. So, I said I wanted to go ... if they come to Birmingham, I'm going with them. Avery discusses her initial involvement and reaction to the Civil Rights Movement and to nonviolence. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Nonviolence African Americans--Civil rights 639 Early Education and Family Life Well, where did you go to school when you came back to Birmingham? Avery discusses her family. African American families ; African Americans--Education ; African Americans--Employment ; Birmingham (Ala.) African American families 782 Movement Involvement and Demonstrations in Georgia But, I left my knife at home. And, everything is history after that. Avery describes her early experience with the Civil Rights Movement in Georgia. African Americans--Civil rights ; African Americans--Georgia ; Civil rights movement African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States 1268 Involvement in Movement Demonstrations & ; Jail Time No, everything was history after that. Avery discusses her involvement in Civil Rights Movement demonstrations. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Civil rights demonstrations--United States ; F.W. Woolworth Company ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Civil rights demonstrations 1760 Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee So, were you there with SNCC? Yes, I was on the staff for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. Avery describes her involvement with the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. African Americans--Civil rights ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.) Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.) 1811 Bombing of Sixteenth Street Baptist Church And, they were killed right after I got out of jail up in Danville. Avery discusses her experience of the bombing of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. African Americans--Civil rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 1911 Family Response to Movement Involvement How did your family feel about what you were doing? I mean, they let you come home and rest here. Well, I didn't tell them everything I was doing all the time. Avery describes her mom's reaction to her involvement in the Civil Rights Movement. African American families African Americans--Civil rights 2004 Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and Southern Christian Leadership Conference Yes, and I want us to talk about those places as much as you want to, but I wonder if you can tell me more about why you think there never was a SNCC chapter here. I don't think it was a SNCC chapter here because I don't think SNCC was ever asked to come in, or anything like that. Avery discusses the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and Southern Christian Leadership Conference. Southern Christian Leadership Conference ; Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.) African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States 2207 Experiences Being Jailed Well, get back to the trajectory you were on, about your life and your story, that I keep interrupting you. That's okay. It's fine. Avery describes her experiences with going to jail. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States African Americans--Civil rights 2377 Voter Registration Efforts So, why did you go to Mississippi? What was the job that you went to do? Avery discusses her voter registration efforts in Mississippi. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Voter registration--United States African Americans--Civil rights 2714 Experiences in Rural Communities Okay. Well, tell me about rural Alabama. Working in rural Alabama. Because, you were a city girl. You had been in Birmingham and Pittsburgh. Avery reflects on experiences in the rural Southeast. African Americans--Civil rights African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States 3041 Reflecting on Ella Baker Well, can you tell me one of your favorite Ella Baker stories? About being with her- Avery shares a story of working with Ella Baker. Baker, Ella, 1903-1986 African Americans--Civil rights 3291 Current Projects & ; Lifelong Learning And, what are you doing these days? I'm telling stories. Avery discusses her current engagement with museums and storytelling, as well as learning and sharing the history of African Americans in the U.S. African Americans--Civil rights ; African Americans--History ; Slavery--United States--History African Americans--Southern States 4284 Demonstration on Bloody Sunday And, Bloody Sunday, I was arrested on Bloody Sunday. Avery describes participating in the demonstration on Bloody Sunday, and being arrested. African Americans--Civil rights African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States 4497 Message for Future Generations What else do you want to say to people who will find this a while from now? Avery shares a message for future generations. African Americans African Americans--Civil rights 4806 Reflection on Life, Heritage, and Identity So, what I'm thinking is, that some of my people probably were part of ... they never talked about it. Avery discusses her identity, heritage, and the history of African Americans. African Americans--History ; African Americans--Race identity ; African Americans--Southern States ; Armed Forces--African Americans ; convict leasing African Americans--Race identity Oral History Annie Pearl Avery discusses her involvement in the Civil Rights Movement after returning to Birmingham at the age of 14. From trying to join the Freedom Riders to marching on Bloody Sunday, she demonstrated and was arrested in both Alabama and Georgia throughout the 1960s. Annie details her involvement with SNCC and the future of activism. AVERY: When I' ; m talking to you, should I look at the camera? ANDERSON: Um ... AVERY: Yeah, I can kind of- ANDERSON: You can look at me. You' ; ll [crosstalk 00:00:13]- AVERY: Well, I' ; ll be looking at you, but I also can be looking at ... I didn' ; t know whether you needed me to look at the camera, or not. I can be looking at you both. It doesn' ; t matter. ANDERSON: I wonder why it' ; s [crosstalk 00:00:23]- AVERY: From where the camera' ; s sitting, and where you going to be sitting, I can see. AVERY: You know I do better when I seem like I' ; m telling a story. ANDERSON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). AVERY: And, then- ANDERSON: Well, that' ; s exactly what I want you to do. All I want to say up front is that I' ; m Laura Anderson, and today is Tuesday, June 3rd, 2014, and I am here with the famous Annie Pearl Avery at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. And, we want to thank you for taking the time to come here and tell some stories. AVERY: Okay. ANDERSON: Thank you. So, you were born here in Birmingham? AVERY: Yes, I was born in [inaudible 00:01:19] here in Birmingham. I always like to, kind of, start my story off telling about when I was real young ; I think about nine or ten years old. And, I had an aunt in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania that ... her husband had passed, and she wanted someone to come stay with her. So, I ... My mother had four of us. My mother decided to share me. And, I stayed in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania for a while, there. And then, I was back in Birmingham at 14. But, on the way up to Pittsburgh, something happened, and it really didn' ; t resonate until about three years ago, what my aunt meant when we got to Cincinnati ... that' ; s what they call the Mason--Dixon line. ANDERSON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). AVERY: And, we were the only people on the bus ... We were the first ones to get on the bus, and she say, " ; You can sit anywhere you want. So, I took off and found me a seat on the back of the bus. And, I finally realized that she wasn' ; t telling me to just choose a seat. She was telling me I could sit anywhere I want. But now, you remember now, I' ; m a little girl, and I know about all this ... not really know ... I' ; m accustomed to going to the back of the bus. But, there was no sign, or anything ; but I still went to the back of the bus, because I had been conditioned to go to the back of the bus. I realize now, I had been conditioned to go to the back of the bus. ANDERSON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). AVERY: But anyway, I' ; m back in Birmingham at 14, and Reverend Shuttlesworth was here trying to ... he, and Reverend Billups, and Reverend Oliver, and Reverend Phifer ... all of these people. They were trying to integrate Phillips High School with their children. And, I didn' ; t get the opportunity to really meet them until later on, when the Freedom Riders came. And, I said if the Freedom Riders came, I was going to go with them, because they were young people. They said young people were leading the sit-ins and the Freedom Ride. So, I said I wanted to go ... if they come to Birmingham, I' ; m going with them. So, when they- ANDERSON: And, how old were you? AVERY: 16 going on 17. And, when they said they were coming to Birmingham, I went down to the Greyhound bus station and bought me a ticket to go to Montgomery with them. That' ; s as far as I could afford to go. So, I was going to go to Montgomery with them. And, we get to ... And, I was really ecstatic. I was excited, really excited. And, they get to Anderson, Alabama, and the bus is blown up in Anderson. And, the people are beaten. And, when they got to Birmingham, they were being beaten at the Trailway bus station, but I had a ticket for the Greyhound bus station. And, a young lady ... my neighbor ... was one of my neighbors ... she and I decided to walk down together, and she told me, she said, " ; Reverend Abernathy' ; s my uncle." ; Her name is Candace Grimes. Said, " ; Reverend Abernathy' ; s my uncle." ; But, he wasn' ; t that important at the time. You know, he wasn' ; t that famous. She was just telling me somebody that was a relative of hers was involved. AVERY: And, we get down to the bus station, and they had it roped off, police line-like. The yellow tape. So, we couldn' ; t go across ... we would just muddle around. So, finally, she got bored and left. And, by happenstance, I met a young man by the name of Wilson Brown. And, Wilson Brown was sent down there by Reverend Shuttlesworth to welcome the Freedom Riders to Birmingham. And, he was the very first direct contact I made with anyone that was in the Civil Rights movement, to know it. And, I told him I wanted to go, and I had my own ticket. I told him I wanted to go, but at the same time, when I bought this ticket, I also bought me a knife. I was going to protect myself on the bus. And, Wilson said, " ; Well, you can' ; t go because you don' ; t understand the concept of nonviolence." ; Well, I had looked in the dictionary for it, but the word was not in the dictionary at the time. So, I asked him to explain it. He said, " ; Well, that' ; s when somebody hits you, you can' ; t hit them back." ; I said, " ; I don' ; t think I want to do that." ; So, I got a refund for my ticket. AVERY: And, a couple of weeks later, at the A.G. Gaston Lounge, Wilson walks in and walk over to me, and he said, " ; How would you like to go to a Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee meeting in Atlanta? And, I thought about it. I said, " ; Well, I want to learn more about the Civil Rights movement, and I' ; m going to get the opportunity to go to Atlanta. I' ; ve never been to Atlanta before. And then, I' ; m going to go free." ; So, I left my knife at home. ANDERSON: Good. AVERY: And, everything is history after that. I detoured from the nonviolent workshops, though. ANDERSON: Tell me, what do you think led you in that direction? What attracted you to what was going on? AVERY: I don' ; t know. It could have been living in Pittsburgh for so long, and being away from this. You know, it' ; s a funny thing, that once a slave' ; s been free, they don' ; t want to be slaves anymore. And, it was different in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. That might have been it. To come back into a situation, you see ... That might have been what ... I can' ; t really tell you. ANDERSON: So, you don' ; t have memories from school, or from growing up, of reading things, or hearing things- AVERY: Well, I didn' ; t even ... We didn' ; t hear very much. Remember, now, the curriculum didn' ; t have a lot about history in it. And, being a kid, these things weren' ; t that important ; at nine or ten years old. And then, when I get to Pittsburgh, things changed. The kids that I' ; m playing with, they say, " ; Well, you don' ; t have to say ' ; yes sir and yes ma' ; am' ; . You respond by saying ' ; yes or no' ; ." ; And, after I' ; m there, I adapt to my environment. I wasn' ; t riding in the back of the bus. I was going wherever I thought I wanted to go. But, I don' ; t know. It might have been the shock of coming back to Birmingham at 14 ; because see, I' ; m understanding a lot of things different than I was at nine or ten years old. ANDERSON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Sure. AVERY: You know, being mature ... I was maturing, and these things were happening. I had to ride the back of the bus again. I' ; m saying, it was just ... you know ... I had to go through ... I guess this is probably what prompt me. It might have been that one thing, it might have been several things. But, in hindsight now, I think that, that might have been one of the things, for sure. ANDERSON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, where did you go to school when you came back to Birmingham? AVERY: I was going to Lincoln Elementary, and then I went to Parker Knight School. ANDERSON: Okay. What did your family ... oh, man. What did your family do for a living? AVERY: Well, my mother and father were separated, but then, my dad changed tires. That' ; s what he did. He was not as literate. My mother had been a nurse. Before we were born, mom had been a nurse. ANDERSON: And, how many were in your family? How many children? AVERY: There were four of us. Two girls and two boys ... [died 00:11:45]. My dad had some children that were of another union. He had two girls. ANDERSON: And, where are you, in the age of the [crosstalk 00:12:03]- AVERY: I' ; m the oldest of all. ANDERSON: Ah, okay. They all looked up to you? AVERY: Well, I don' ; t know about that. Anyway, I' ; m the oldest. Do you want me to start where I was telling the story, or do you want me to go on? ANDERSON: Well, we' ; ll pick up at the Freedom Rides again. I do want you to tell it. But, I' ; m trying to set this in a context. So, you were living with your mother- AVERY: Yeah. ANDERSON: ... when you moved to Birmingham? And, you were the oldest? AVERY: Yes. ANDERSON: You had some brothers and sisters? AVERY: Mm-hmm (affirmative). ANDERSON: And, you were in Knight School at Parker? AVERY: Yeah. ANDERSON: Okay. So, you got your refund. You didn' ; t take that Greyhound. AVERY: No. Not then, I didn' ; t take it. ANDERSON: Okay. AVERY: But, I left my knife at home. And, everything is history after that. I went to Atlanta. And, when I got to Atlanta to the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee conference, I met the first decent white people that I knew. There might have been some in Birmingham, but I didn' ; t know them. I met Anne and Carl Braden. I met Bob Zellner, " ; Dottie" ; Miller, Penny Patch, Bill Hansen. I met other people, like, Julian Bond. I met Jim Forman. I met Bernard LaFayette. I met several other people. Charles McDougle was who was the chairman at the time, I think. I met a whole host of people. And, Miss Ella Baker. I met Miss Baker for the first time, and she happened to turn out to be one of my mentors ; she and Jim Forman. AVERY: After the first meeting ... Actually, we got in trouble on the way back to Birmingham. We had a young white girl that wanted to meet Reverend Shuttlesworth. Well, I wanted to meet him, too, because I hadn' ; t ever met him before. You know, I' ; d heard about him, but never met him personally. And, we started back to Birmingham, and we got lost and ended up in Marietta, Georgia. And, there was a bus station ... during that time, Marietta was real small ... real small town. And, we went in the bus station to try to get some directions. And, they spotted the white girl with us. And, during that time, if you were in a mixed group, you were considered part of the Civil Rights movement. That was a signal that you were part of ... And, they wouldn' ; t tell us anything. They were really rude to us. AVERY: And, we got back in the car, and we started out again, still going in the wrong direction. And, the police was following us. So, what they did is, they charged Wilson with speeding and arrested him. Made him drive the car back to the police station. Now, the police station was only about a block away from the bus station. Now, we' ; re at this point ... There was another young man with us named Nathaniel Lee. He' ; s Reverend Nathaniel Lee, now. And, now we' ; re on foot with no car, and Wilson' ; s in jail, and it was getting dark. And, we thought about finding a black community, but we didn' ; t know where to look. In Marietta, we didn' ; t know where to look. But anyway, we got ... When I looked down the road, around the street, and I saw the bus station again, I said, " ; Let' ; s go to the bus station." ; That' ; s the only thing I knew, was the bus station. So, we went to the bus station. When we walked in, they told us we had to leave ; that we couldn' ; t stay. And, my instincts said, " ; Let' ; s buy some tickets." ; So, that made us customers. And, we had to go back ... We felt like we were going to have to go to Atlanta by bus, anyway ... back to Atlanta. That' ; s where we bought tickets, to go back to Atlanta. Not to come to Birmingham, because we were closer to Atlanta. AVERY: We called the SNCC office and told somebody what our situation was. And then, things began to happen. Things were happening, anyway, because the bus station started getting full of a mob. It filled up with a racist mob. And, in the meantime, there was three telephone booths there. You know, during that time they had telephone booths. And, we were going to take refuge in the booths. And, when we used the phone to call the SNCC office, we gave them the number of one of the phones ; so, they were calling us. But, during that time, they had a switchboard. And, the Associated Press started calling us about every 15 to 20 minutes, asking us, Were we okay? And, I guess they got that from the SNCC office, that we were there, and that we were in danger, and that Wilson was in jail. And, I' ; m almost sure that the fact that the Associated Press was calling there, was bothering these people. It probably kept us from getting hurt any sooner. Of course, if we had been there all night, we probably would have. If we had had to stay in that bus station all night, it would' ; ve been murder, because there was nothing in there but white males calling us niggers, and nigger-lovers. It just went on, and on, and on. And, they were getting worse, and worse. They had sticks and stuff. We thought we were going to get killed in there. AVERY: But, in the meantime, other things were working. They got Howard Moore, Attorney Howard Moore, and someone, I think, from Justice Department, or somebody from the State Department. They knew some ... It might have been LeRoy ... Senator Leroy Johnson, I believe was Senator at that time. But anyway, somebody made some moves, and they came there with Howard Moore to get Wilson out of jail. And, they took us back to Atlanta, and told us to wait until daylight. But, that was one of the times ... it was one of the most frightening times ... I said one of them. One of the most frightening times in my career of being a Civil Rights activist. ANDERSON: Was that the first time that- AVERY: Yes. ANDERSON: ... you really felt the- AVERY: Yeah, I' ; m saying, it was really ... they were really ... You could tell these people were not playing. They were really about being brutal. And, we had nowhere to go. Where were we going to go? ANDERSON: Well, that didn' ; t scare you away from the movement. AVERY: No, everything was history after that. I ended up in jail in Albany, Georgia. When I got back here, and I met Reverend Shuttlesworth, I met him in his pajamas. He was in his pajamas that morning when we got back. And, after that, they took me down to the ... what is that ... I think it was the Woolworths, or Kress' ; , or something ; the " ; five and dime" ; store, to sit at the lunch counter. And, I hadn' ; t quite gotten adjusted to this nonviolent thing, so. I' ; m sitting there, and this guy is going down the counter pouring ketchup and spitting on us. And, I said, " ; Well ...," ; I kind of get ... and Reverend Shuttlesworth said, " ; Come here, I want you to stand here beside me. You haven' ; t been indoctrinated enough." ; And, I stood there beside ... I said, " ; I' ; d like to go back up there." ; He said, " ; No, I want you to stand right here beside me." ; Yeah. ANDERSON: He was afraid you were going to hurt one of those guys? AVERY: Well, I don' ; t know about hurting somebody, but I really didn' ; t ... I really wasn' ; t ready for being spit on at this point. I' ; m new into this thing, so this ... ANDERSON: [inaudible 00:22:31] ever being ready. AVERY: Yeah. But, I ended up being in all of the major activities in the Civil Rights movement during the ' ; 60s. I was in Albany, Georgia. I was arrested there. I went to Americus, Georgia to help work on voter registration there. I went to ... I was arrested right here in Birmingham. And, what happened, they sent me on a decoy march. By this time, SCLC had came in, and Reverend Wyatt Tee Walker was one of my mentors. He was with the SCLC, but he was one of my mentors. And, he sent me on this decoy demonstration. I couldn' ; t figure out what was going on. There was just a handful of us. And, I think we were arrested right there were the old post office used to be. ANDERSON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). AVERY: And then later on, a larger demonstration came that was a surprise. I went on the decoy. I guess I' ; m supposed to ... we were trying to throw them off, because once we had a march and demonstrated and it was over, we didn' ; t do another one, you see. And, they were really surprised when the other one came. One of my friends had said she wasn' ; t going. She say, " ; You going to jail?" ; I said, " ; Yeah, I' ; m going with them." ; So, on the second march, she came. And, I got a feeling that ... She made the statement, " ; I didn' ; t want to be out there by myself." ; So, what I' ; m thinking is, that all of the people who were going, and she was the only one holding out, she decided she didn' ; t want to be the one that was holding out. Because, when she showed up in jail, I said, " ; What you doing here? I thought you weren' ; t going." ; " ; I decided I didn' ; t want to be out there by myself." ; I said, " ; Okay." ; AVERY: And, I was in Guest in Alabama. I tried to finish the William Moore march. I wasn' ; t there long, out there on the road. I think I was about 15 minutes, and they picked me up. But anyway- ANDERSON: How many were in your group that did that? Were you by yourself? AVERY: Well, I was the first one ... I was by myself. ANDERSON: Okay. AVERY: And then, a day later ... 24 hours, or so, later ... Diane Nash and three other young ladies, and some fellows came. And, matter of fact, one of the movie stars ... Madeleine Sherwood ... but, they bonded her out. She was the one played in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. ANDERSON: Oh. AVERY: The pregnant one that stayed pregnant all the time, in the Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. Madeleine Sherwood, I' ; ll never forget her. I think she was bonded out right away. I' ; m not sure, but I think one of the reasons is, she was white, and then, being the only person that was white, and being female, they wanted to get her out of there. You know, they don' ; t want to leave ... But, we had ... there was Diane Nash, and two other young ladies from Birmingham that were in jail with us. And then, I think there was four or five fellows. But, this is different than her being there alone. But anyway, we stayed in jail about six weeks, or so ; maybe ten. We ended up ... They finally took us to Wetumpka, the women' ; s prison, and took the men to Kilby. There was something about a threat. Somebody was ... it was a threat ... coming in and take us out ... do us in. AVERY: But, I worked in Gadsden, Alabama after that for a long time. I worked there. I was cattle-prodded there by the State Patrol, and the police. Arrested several times. I can' ; t remember how many times. And, then I was in demonstrations in Tennessee. I was arrested in Danville, Virginia several times. One of the times, I served 90 days for contempt of court. That' ; s the only time I ever served. I served those 90 days because the judge refused to set a bond, or either allow us to be released. It was two of us, and what happened is, he would sleep when we showed up for court for one of our cases. And, the courtroom was full of us, and ... Matthew Jones and myself. He later on became the director of the Freedom Singers. AVERY: But, Matthew and I were there. When Matthew showed up ... and we were out in the hall talking. So, finally, we walked inside, and the judge asleep. I said, " ; Matthew, this man asleep." ; He really don' ; t intent to hear anything related to what was wrong. So, we did what we called ... we walked right up to the podium and just fell out. And, one of the ... what they called it ... the Deputy Sheriffs, he said ... and, the judge said, " ; What' ; s wrong with them?" ; He said, " ; That' ; s what they call ' ; going limp,' ; Your Honor." ; And, he got so angry. And the lawyers could not get ... I' ; ll never forget the lawyers. It was Mr. and Mrs. Wood. It was a husband and wife attorney, that did our work in Dansville, Virginia. ANDERSON: So, were you there with SNCC? AVERY: Yes, I was on the staff for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. ANDERSON: Well, I need you to tell me about SNCC and Birmingham, because not many people talk about SNCC being in Birmingham. They talk about SCLC and ACMHR, and - AVERY: We didn' ; t have a chapter here. That was what it was. There was no chapter here, but there were people who came into Birmingham to participate. Ruby Doris Smith-Robinson. There were several people came in. Julian and all of them came, especially when the children were killed. ANDERSON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). AVERY: And, they were killed right after I got out of jail up in Danville. The project director had told me to come home and get a break, because I had been in solitary confinement for this 90 days, and on a fast. And, I came in that night, and I went in and went to bed. And, at that time we were living on 1st Street West. And, we heard the explosion. And, I thought it was Arthur Shores' ; house, because they were always blowing his house up ; which was not too far away. Because, that was the Smithfield area. And, I walked all the way up here. We couldn' ; t get across because of the police line. And, within three or four hours, or so, there were a lot of people here. Julian Bond. Several other people had came in because of the death of the children. And, it was really hurting for me. Just like I say, I had just gotten out of jail. And, the bomb was what really awakened me that morning. That' ; s what awakened me that morning. ANDERSON: How did your family feel about what you were doing? I mean, they let you come home and rest here. AVERY: Well, I didn' ; t tell them everything I was doing all the time. When something showed up in the newspaper, or something, with my name on it, some of the people who knew my mother would tell her. We weren' ; t able to buy newspapers, and subscribe to Jet, and all that stuff. But, they would tell her. And, she knew I was doing it, but I would not tell her when I was going into a situation, because I didn' ; t want her to worry about it. " ; It' ; s okay." ; She found out about it, and it happened. I' ; m okay. But, I would not tell her. And, she got tired of that and started marching and going to jail herself so she could get first-hand information, I guess. ANDERSON: That' ; s pretty good. AVERY: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, she started marching and going to jail herself. I was also in Mississippi. I was in Clarksdale, Mississippi working on voter registration when Chaney, Schwerner, and Goodman were murdered. And, I ended up in Natchez, Mississippi, also. ANDERSON: I [crosstalk 00:33:21]- AVERY: And Selma. ANDERSON: Yes, and I want us to talk about those places as much as you want to, but I wonder if you can tell me more about why you think there never was a SNCC chapter here. AVERY: I don' ; t think it was a SNCC chapter here because I don' ; t think SNCC was ever asked to come in, or anything like that. I don' ; t really know for sure, except that there was no chapter here. And, there are several places where there was no SNCC chapter ; which had nothing really to do with not wanting to come. I guess, just by happenstance, that SCLC was here, and all these other organizations came in. Of course, NAACP had always been around for a long time. Long before SCLC, or SNCC, or any of this stuff. The SCLC ... But, SCLC came in, I think that was something that started out of the Alabama Christian movement. I think that, kind of, somewhere along in there, is where the SCLC came into play. And, a lot of people didn' ; t know it, that Miss Baker was, I think, the first Executive Director for the SCLC. ANDERSON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). AVERY: And, she decided to take the young people under her wings. But, I don' ; t really know, to tell the truth. I really don' ; t know. But, wherever we were, we worked together. If we weren' ; t friends, we became friends. You spend enough time in jail, and being threatened ... your life ... and you will become friends. ANDERSON: I' ; m sure. Well, tell me about all that work you did after Birmingham, when you went to- AVERY: Oh, another thing about SCLC ... SCLC was mostly ministers, too. The younger group was not ministers- ANDERSON: Oh, yeah [crosstalk 00:36:18]- AVERY: ... necessarily. That- ANDERSON: I' ; m well aware of differences between the organizations. I' ; ve always found it fascinating that there was no SNCC chapter here, and I just wondered ... You helped me by what you said. AVERY: I hope I did, because I didn' ; t ... I really didn' ; t think it made that much difference. I never thought of it in terms of who was here. But, I worked with ... I' ; m from Birmingham. I had to work here, for real, because this is my home. ANDERSON: Well, get back to the trajectory you were on, about your life and your story, that I keep interrupting you. AVERY: That' ; s okay. It' ; s fine. ANDERSON: I' ; ll just be playing with this for a minute. How long did you rest, anyway? Church got bombed, and- AVERY: I didn' ; t rest very much, except when I was in jail. ANDERSON: I can believe that. AVERY: That' ; s when I' ; d rest. When they put me in jail, that' ; s when I' ; d rest. Had plenty of rest. Wasn' ; t comfortable, but I' ; m saying, it was rest. ANDERSON: Well, I can see why you' ; d say that, but, I doubt you wanted to go to jail. I don' ; t know. Tell me about [crosstalk 00:37:43]- AVERY: Well, at this point I think I didn' ; t mind going to jail. I thought it was the thing we had to do, you know? When I was coming up, you know, breaking the law was ... But, I' ; m saying, I found out that you had to break the laws that were unjust in order to change them. And, that' ; s what I did. And, if it took going to jail, and sometimes risking my life, I had to make a decision if I was going to put myself in really harm' ; s way, I had to make a decision. And, once I made the decision, if whatever happens, happens. That' ; s about the bottom line, there. And, I think all of us did, really. Because, I was afraid, you know? But, being afraid, and then I made a decision. Well, in spite of my fear, I' ; m going to do this. And, once I decided to do it, I was more relaxed in doing it, because I had made a decision, and I knew what the risks were. ANDERSON: So, why did you go to Mississippi? What was the job that you went to do? AVERY: To try to get people registered to vote. I had been working all along with the Civil Rights movement, so I decided ... They needed people. They said they needed some people in Mississippi, so I decided to go to Mississippi. I was in Clarksdale, Mississippi first. And, I brought people from the orientation down to Clarksdale with me for the Mississippi Freedom Summer. And, after that I went to Natchez, Mississippi, where it was very dangerous there, too. Friends of mine say that, " ; You liked it hot." ; I guess I did. ANDERSON: Did you become a trainer? Were you training some of those students who came? AVERY: I had a group that I brought to Clarksdale with me, but a lot of my training was done training other people. I guess you couldn' ; t say it was training. It was also discipline, because I had gotten the discipline, especially in jail. Then, I was able to pass it on to other people. Because, I realized once we were in jail, we had all kind of problems in there, too. There are people in jail who are in here for some serious stuff, so we need to stick together. Another thing is, sometimes people would get in jail, and they' ; d break down and cry. I' ; d say, " ; If you got to cry, to in the closet somewhere and cry. Don' ; t ... " ; Because, if they found out that they can intimidate us like this, even the other prisoners will intimidate us. You understand what I' ; m saying? We had cigarettes, and sometimes people would bring things to us ; bring us stuff. And, one time we had to have money, because they were arresting us for vagrancy. And, one time people in SNCC and CORE were not getting paid, and they couldn' ; t deal with this stuff, with people doing all this stuff and not getting ... There was no way to stop it. And, they forced SNCC and CORE to pay people. ANDERSON: Who are ' ; they' ; ? AVERY: I' ; m thinking the government. Part of whoever ... because, either the cities, or whatever, they say that you to have a job. Vagrancy. We didn' ; t have money. And, we were arrested for vagrancy. ANDERSON: In Alabama? AVERY: In Alabama, and Mississippi, and Georgia, too ; and several places. This law was used ... Say, for instance, if you didn' ; t have any money, and you didn' ; t have a job ... A lot of us, after this thing came up ... this issue came up ... we would have at least $.50 cents on us to keep from getting arrested. A lot of times, we couldn' ; t stay with people, because people were afraid. Sometimes we ended up spending a night or two in the car. And, if they stopped us, and we didn' ; t have any money, they also ... even if we had somewhere to stay, we didn' ; t have any money. And vagrancy ... I think the vagrancy law is still on the books everywhere. It means if you don' ; t have a job, or can prove that you are working, you a vagrant. So, we started getting ... what was it ... $10 dollars ... The big sum of $10 dollars ... I think it was $10 dollars every two weeks, or something like that, or $10 dollars a week ... whatever. It wasn' ; t- ANDERSON: You were on the payroll. AVERY: Yeah, I' ; m saying that legally, we were on a payroll. So, the vagrancy law, they couldn' ; t use against us. Of course, they' ; d use whatever else they felt like using. Even if they arrested us for vagrancy, the lawyers would come in ... Most of the stuff got appealed. The only thing that was on appealable was that contempt of court. I had to serve those 90 days. But, everything else was appealed and thrown out later on, by the higher courts. I don' ; t have a criminal record. ANDERSON: Okay. Well, tell me about rural Alabama. Working in rural Alabama. Because, you were a city girl. You had been in Birmingham and Pittsburgh. AVERY: Well, rural anywhere was ... was different for me. The only thing about it being rural ... It was certain things I could do. I could talk to the people, and stuff like this. But, there were times when some of the people would ... and, SNCC would go out and pick cotton. I couldn' ; t deal with that cotton picking stuff. I' ; ll wash some dishes to eat, but I ain' ; t going [inaudible 00:46:16] picking cotton. I' ; m a city girl. ANDERSON: That' ; s what I was thinking. You were a city girl. AVERY: But, the people who live there is different. I' ; m a city girl. I didn' ; t change from that at all. There were some people who did some things, you know, that ... I guess it was unusual. They wanted to do it, so they did. But, sometimes we had to stay with people, and we had to help them do whatever they had to do. But, I had to help do something else besides the cotton picking, and stuff like that. ANDERSON: Well, when' ; s the first time you went to a rural community? AVERY: The first time I went to a rural community was Georgia. My folks came from a rural community ... my mother ... and my dad. ANDERSON: Where? AVERY: So, we would visit. ANDERSON: Where were they from? AVERY: Akron, Alabama. Daddy was from Alexander City, Alabama. That' ; s about it. Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Tuscaloosa wasn' ; t as rural, but it got more rural as you went into Akron, which I think is 20 miles away ... 20 miles from Tuscaloosa. And, we thought that was a big deal for us, when we were kids. I' ; m saying, it' ; s just like we went to Chicago. So, rural areas ... I wasn' ; t that comfortable with being in rural areas. But, I did what I had to do. ANDERSON: Yeah, it struck me that you have spent a good bit of time in areas like that, organizing the- AVERY: Well, I spent a time ... most of my time doing Civil Rights activists, even in Atlanta. I stayed in Atlanta for 30-something years, and I was organizing cab drivers over there. So, I pretty much stayed involved. I was in the taxi cab business, but I was trying to organize cab drivers, too. ANDERSON: Organize them around what? What issues- AVERY: Unity, and stuff like this. Bogus traffic violations, and stuff. And, I' ; m not sure I understood ... it was something ... And, this is from some older cab drivers, older people who were in the taxi business said something about there was a cab driver who ... Now, don' ; t quote me, because this could not be true. Because I' ; d never researched it, but it could' ; ve been. Said that a cab driver ran over Margaret Mitchell and killed her. If that' ; s true ... And, they haven' ; t liked cab drivers since. And, I' ; m not sure whether he was a black cab driver. He might have been. Because, the hostility was directed towards mostly black cab drivers. But, I' ; m not sure that that' ; s true. I' ; m quite sure you can probably find out whether Margaret Mitchell was ... She wrote Gone with the Wind. Yeah. ANDERSON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). My mother was named Melanie because of that book. AVERY: Yeah. That' ; s what I heard, now. And, that was the story. Now, whether it' ; s true or not ... I never did try to find out. ANDERSON: Well, let' ; s try to find out. Well, can you tell me one of your favorite Ella Baker stories? About being with her- AVERY: Oh, my favorite Ella Baker story is, I was trying to put something together, and I asked Miss Baker to help me. And, she told me she would not do it. So, I asked her why, because I ... you know, I got kind of frustrated. I said, " ; Well, I wonder why?" ; So, I went back and asked her why. She say, " ; You have to do it for yourself." ; And, I understand that, now. Because, if she had did it for me, I would have always been asking someone else to help me. I might not have ever did it myself, but I feel like I can do anything myself, just about. I need a little assistance every once in a while, but I believe it can be done. I might not be able to do it as well as some other people, but I' ; m saying I believe I can do it. Like, the computer. I don' ; t know ... I' ; m behind technology. I can barely deal with the cell phone, but you don' ; t hear it ringing because I ... Only thing I can do is answer and call out on it. If someone texts me, they just in trouble. If you got a message for me, if it' ; s important, I won' ; t get it. But, anyway, I' ; m working on that, too. Now, I might not be able to do as well as some other folks, but I might be able to get the basics. ANDERSON: I believe it. AVERY: I know how to erase calls off of my cell phone. ANDERSON: That' ; s good. AVERY: But, it took some time for me to do this. It took a little time for me to do this. Yeah. ANDERSON: But, you aren' ; t afraid. AVERY: No. But, I' ; m saying, Miss Baker ... the fact that she would not help me ... I' ; m glad she didn' ; t, now. I' ; m glad she didn' ; t. And, I also thought that she had to be a pretty strong person to do what she did, especially ... And then, the male chauvinists, and stuff, they never gave her credit for a lot of stuff. She was around before SCLC ever came about. When I met her, she had probably already dedicated, maybe 25 years of her life to Civil Rights. ANDERSON: What do you think she would say about the commemorative events that we' ; ve all been pulling together, and celebrating, and focusing on for the last couple of years? AVERY: It' ; s not over yet. And, I remember her saying something. You know, you got to agitate, agitate, agitate, because it' ; s not going away. Injustice is not going away. And, that' ; s something that stays with me. ANDERSON: How does it influence what you' ; re doing these days? AVERY: Well- ANDERSON: And, what are you doing these days? AVERY: I' ; m telling stories. I' ; m at the Ancient Africa Civil War and Slavery Museum in Selma. During the week, I' ; m there at that museum from 1:00 to 5:00, and I' ; m there telling stories. And, I' ; m telling stories about what I did, but I' ; m also learning something there. Because, I knew very little about Africa. I' ; m not a historian. I knew very little about Africa. I knew very little about the Civil War. But, I' ; m learning a lot of things, because there are a lot of historians that do come through there. And, then, I' ; m having to learn everything ... when I take the people on the tour, I have to know certain things in order to be effective when I do the tour. It' ; s not perfect, but then, there are people who ... historians, archeologists, anthropologists, that' ; ll come through there, and I' ; m learning a whole lot from them. It' ; s just like being in school, too, at the same time. AVERY: It' ; s more exciting ... Now, also, be over at the Voting Rights Museum there. But, I' ; m more excited about being at the Ancient African Slavery Museum, because I was a part of the voting rights ... all the stuff that happen at the Voting Rights Museum, I knew just about all the people that were involved. I knew Jim Lawson. And, he was the one that taught Martin Luther King about nonviolence. See, all of this stuff I know, and I knew the people. But, what I' ; m learning at the Ancient African Slave and Civil War Museum, I' ; m having to revive a whole lot of things in my mind. Regroup, because there' ; s a lot of things that I didn' ; t know. And, there' ; s one thing that I' ; m trying to work on now, it' ; s a project. Slavery by Another Name. Convict leasing. ANDERSON: Those vagrancy laws. AVERY: Yeah, but I' ; m just finding out, see, that they were doing ... this was something they did all the time. And, not only that, I wasn' ; t aware of the Slavery by Another Name ... of being re-enslaved after the emancipation. So, I' ; m working on a timeline to go up in the museum, there. Because, after emancipation, you don' ; t hear about it. Everybody talk about anything else. But, there was something much more brutal, and much worse than what happened before the emancipation. Because, what I' ; m seeing is, that if a person paid $200 dollars for a slave ... if you hurt yourself, they might want to see about it. But, convict leasing, it was some ... that was some terrible stuff. It was worse than the chattel slavery. I guess that' ; s what you call it, chattel slavery. It was worse, because there was no human element in that at all. You hurt? Keep on working. You had to meet a quota, it don' ; t matter. Living in their own feces, and germs, and ... it had to be rather ... And then, people dying from ... what is it ... tuberculosis. And, the fact that a lot of these big companies were involved in that. AVERY: Now, they don' ; t want to acknowledge it. They said, " ; We didn' ; t do it." ; But, they got rich. I found out that a whole bunch of people got rich off of this. People we wouldn' ; t even think about got rich, and are very prominent today. And, the fact that they don' ; t want to acknowledge ... See, you' ; ve got to first, admit that there' ; s a problem, or there' ; s been a problem, because that alone ... that many years of the convict leasing laws ... retarded our progress. We began to do better during reconstruction, but then, when the convict leasing ... I' ; m saying, that just retarded and ... just set everything back so many years. Up until, what was it, in the 1929 ... somewhere in there ... where somebody became really concerned. And, also the fact that ... see, President Roosevelt, I understand ... See, that' ; s because I' ; ve been reading. I read a book every month, and sometime when I run into something like this, I have to put down the other book and go to read ... One book I was trying to read was How the North Prolonged, and Profited, and Promoted Slavery. Okay? So, I had to detour from that to do this. And, it was kind of hard for me to read that, because it' ; s hard to believe that a human would do this to another human. AVERY: And another thing is, it happened ... I was born in 1943, so some of this stuff pretty much had to been going on around then. My mother was born in 1911. She was born into some of this, and I don' ; t hear my people, older people in the family, have not talked about this. And, they had to know, but if you were in Alabama, or Mississippi, or something, you had to be aware of this. And, the putting people ... and, trickery, too. The deception that went along with this. And, the plantations, and stuff. The people who made money. I mean, a lot of money. The cotton farms. All these people who made a lot of money. And, I think there was ... seemingly, there was a couple of white guys who got some stuff done to them in the re-enslavement, and that' ; s what drawed somebody' ; s attention to ... Because, see, the thing about this is, if Chaney had been murdered, and nobody murdered but him, he' ; d just been another dead black man. ANDERSON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). AVERY: If Jimmie Lee Jackson had been killed, and there wasn' ; t Reverend Reeb, or Miss Viola Liuzzo, they' ; d just been some dead black people during that period. Because, there was several people among ... Reading about Senator Hurst who killed Mr. Herbert Lee. And, the only way I knew about Mr. Herbert Lee, they were talking about him at my first SNCC meeting. They were talking about Mr. Herbert Lee, who had just been murdered. It was 1961. At first SNCC conference I went to. And then, they were talking about Clyde Kennard, who tried to enter the University of Ole Miss before Meredith did, and was arrested for stealing a sack of chicken feed, and stayed in jail for years before Dick Gregory finally raised money to get him out of jail before he died. Now, I' ; m thinking about all the people that we don' ; t know about. I' ; m saying, why would a Senator be involved in murder? Senator Eastland was, too. AVERY: The thing is, there was no consequences for these people, and that' ; s the reason voting is so important. Because, if it' ; s somebody you get in there, and you really don' ; t like them, you need to get them out. And, the only way to legally get them out, and to get them out the right way, really, is to vote them out. But, these people didn' ; t feel any fear about doing this stuff. There was no consequences for them. Black people weren' ; t voting in Mississippi. What difference did it make to them? These people weren' ; t voting. Who they care? They had nobody to be accountable to. And, that' ; s the reason they were so bold. But anyway, I hope I' ; m not talking too much. ANDERSON: No, it' ; s good. And, you' ; ve gone in the right direction that I wanted for closing. You know, what ... Today' ; s Primary day. Who' ; s voting today? AVERY: Yeah. Well, the thing about this is, it took a very long time before our people got to the point where they didn' ; t have fear of just walking in, trying to register. It took the Justice Department ... they had to literally come in and take over some of these places. But now, they got all kind of other ruses and other gimmicks- ANDERSON: [crosstalk 01:06:53] new things every day, aren' ; t they? AVERY: And see, my position is, that everyone should be allowed to vote, if you' ; re a citizen in the United States of America. If they' ; ve committed crimes, and you paid your dues, and they allow you to come out in society, you should be allowed to vote. Because, you paid your dues. Now, I' ; m not saying they ought to let everybody out, you know, because some folks ... [inaudible 01:07:27] can' ; t let them out. But, I' ; m just saying that this is ... But they include them in the citizen ... when they do the ... they include these people for taxes, and several reasons. Why can' ; t they vote? I have nothing against them if they want to vote in prison. You' ; re still citizens. But, with all the justice supposed to be ... And, we shouldn' ; t have to have things to go vote. You shouldn' ; t have to have IDs, and ... it' ; s something else, you know, in the back. They had to have an ID years ago, for the reconstruction. They had to have Freedmen' ; s papers and some other mess. It' ; s been one thing after the other, and don' ; t mention the blacks. I' ; m saying, it was like, you had to either ... you had to own property. That was one of the criteria. ANDERSON: And pay a poll tax. AVERY: Pay a poll tax. Be educated. And, when I say be educated, you had to repeat parts of the Constitution. And, guess how many bubbles was in a bar of soap, and how many marbles was in a jar, [inaudible 01:08:55]. I' ; m saying, this is ridiculous. It is not quite the same thing, but the ruses that are being used, and the gimmicks that are being used, are being used for the same reason. That' ; s it. The same. The bottom line. You being used for the same purpose. That' ; s to derail a vote in their favor, whichever. ANDERSON: I' ; m so glad that you are just still doing what you do. AVERY: Well, I' ; m still registering people to vote. I' ; m still doing all kind ... I' ; m still marching. Well, put it like this, I' ; m not marching. I' ; m going to demonstrations [inaudible 01:09:43]. And also, I was at the March on Washington. That was ahead of Poor People' ; s March. March on Washington. Yeah. There' ; s so many things that ... sometime I forget. But- ANDERSON: And, you' ; re living in Selma now. You didn' ; t come home to Birmingham, you [crosstalk 01:10:08]- AVERY: Well, really, I' ; m kind of still living in both, really. But, what happened is, I can' ; t afford to travel. But, in Selma I can see all the people that ... some of the people, like Julian, and other people. All those people come into Selma. And, I can see my friends that I used to work with. And, I can also meet other people that I didn' ; t know, because I don' ; t ... I didn' ; t know a lot of people who were in the areas where I worked, because if I didn' ; t live with them, I wouldn' ; t have known them. Like, I' ; m just getting to know some of the people in Selma who was there in 1965, but I didn' ; t live in Selma. I was Project Director for Voter Registration in Hale County where my people live. My aunts, my great aunts and stuff, live ... in Hale County. Yeah. AVERY: And, Bloody Sunday, I was arrested on Bloody Sunday. I happened to been the only person that was arrested that day. The police and I were having a physical disagreement. It was just one of those unusual things that I just happen to been arrested. And, actually I think it was a godsend that I was arrested, because I probably would have been hurt very badly, too. And, I remember them having me in jail on the 2nd floor, and I could hear people screaming, and all. And, I thought it was echo coming from the river, or whatever, but it wasn' ; t. It was people trying to ... they were beating the people all the way back to Brown' ; s Chapel and to the church, see. But, this is what I was hearing. In hindsight, when I got ... did I realize ... I kept hearing all this noise while I was in jail, and when we start talking about it, and you' ; re talking about people being beaten back to the church. And, I realized, geographically, where the church ... because, you see, I didn' ; t live in Selma. All this stuff was vague ... very, very vague ... later on. But, the fact that I could hear these people, that' ; s where the noise was coming from. It wasn' ; t coming from the bridge. It was coming from people trying to make it back to the church. AVERY: And, Peter Hall bonded me out of jail. Attorney Peter Hall. Out of his own pocket. I was the only one ... I guess he was rationalizing when he said, " ; She' ; s the only one in jail, so I' ; m not coming back down here to bond nobody out." ; So, he went on in his pocket, and bonded me out, because I wasn' ; t but one person that was locked up that day. ANDERSON: Did you want to be bonded out, or did you want to stay in there? AVERY: I didn' ; t think about it. Because see, that come from after doing this for a while. See, when you go to jail, you' ; re not supposed to think about when you' ; re going to get out. ANDERSON: So, you didn' ; t know that he was going to bond you out? AVERY: No, I had no clue. ANDERSON: Okay. AVERY: I had no clue. ANDERSON: [inaudible 01:14:00] AVERY: And, all of the times I went to jail, I didn' ; t worry about getting out. ANDERSON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). AVERY: Whenever I got out, was whenever I got out, and I had to make myself at home inside the cell. I think the first time I went, I ... I kind of had to adapt, but I knew wasn' ; t nobody coming soon. And, the reality of it is, the more I kept going, the more I knew there wasn' ; t people ... it just ain' ; t going to happen just like that. You might stay in for days, and months, or whatever. ANDERSON: What else do you want to say to people who will find this a while from now? AVERY: I would say that ... to keep fighting against injustice. And, to ensure voting rights for everyone, and justice for everybody. And, it can be done in several ways. You don' ; t have to be a activist to do it. You can be a lawyer, or whatever ... a school teacher. But, whatever you' ; re in, if you see injustice, try to do something about it. Because, silence is a way of saying you agree. Yeah. ANDERSON: Well, thank you very, very much. AVERY: Oh, great. ANDERSON: You' ; ve got a lot of stories, yet, to tell. AVERY: Yeah. ANDERSON: If you ever want to come back and tell different stories, you would be most welcome, but I don' ; t want to keep you all [crosstalk 01:16:21]- AVERY: No, I' ; m fine. I' ; m fine. ANDERSON: Good. AVERY: Because, you don' ; t ... you know ... I always got stories because I' ; m always seek ... I' ; m curious, too. See, I' ; m always looking for something different. And, people come in the museum ... There was one guy, a white fellow came in, and his great-grandfather was killed in that Fort Pillow Massacre, I believe. It was the [inaudible 01:16:58] the Nathan B. Forrest. It was the Union soldiers, and all predominately black, but there were a few whites. I think it was a couple of whites in there, too, at this. And, he said that his great-grandfather was one of those people that was murdered. ANDERSON: There are details, and details ... and, that' ; s my big battle, here, as we memorialize this movement ; even as it' ; s still happening. AVERY: Mm-hmm (affirmative). ANDERSON: Details get buried. AVERY: Yeah. ANDERSON: And, I don' ; t like that, so- AVERY: Well, it' ; s going to be ... I' ; m saying, this stuff is going to go on for years, and years. What I see is, that some of the people don' ; t want to talk about it. And, when I think about where my husband was born, in Rigging' ; s Quarters here. That was probably ... and, I just thought about that, that it was called Rigging' ; s Quarters. ANDERSON: Where was that? AVERY: That' ; s what it' ; s called. It' ; s out, like, going toward ... going past north Birmingham, and going out 31 down to the right, down in there. Where the mines, and stuff, was. And, that speaks volumes, because that Rigging' ; s ... the fact that they call it Rigging' ; s Quarters means that it probably was one of those places where they kept some of those convicts. ANDERSON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). AVERY: You know? Otherwise, why would they call it a Quarters? That' ; s what it' ; s been called for years and years. And, Tennessee Coal and Iron, United Steel, and all those folks, were involved in this. That was some cruel mess. Pratt. And, I didn' ; t realized ... I' ; m just saying that, by reading about it, and reading specifics. And, you know, some people say, " ; Well, I saw the movie." ; Well, the movie' ; s not going to be- ANDERSON: It doesn' ; t have those details. [crosstalk 01:19:36] AVERY: Details. It don' ; t have details. ANDERSON: It doesn' ; t. AVERY: I want details. ANDERSON: It' ; ll make you, maybe, feel something, but then you- AVERY: Yeah. ANDERSON: ... got to go read the [crosstalk 01:19:47]- AVERY: Read the details. And, that' ; s what made me think about ... because that' ; s right over the hill, here. It' ; s right in the middle. Pratt City, Ensley. ANDERSON: Full of- AVERY: So, what I' ; m thinking is, that some of my people probably were part of ... they never talked about it. The only thing I remember my grandfather is, I asked him about something that was wrong with his arm. And, he said it come from hard labor. That was the only statement he made about that. Nothing specific, or anything, except it come from the hard labor. And, by me being a child asking, I didn' ; t know about all this other stuff. And, my great uncles, and stuff. If I had known what I know now, I could have asked them some questions, just so I would know first-hand some things that happened. Because, all of these people were probably, somehow or another, connected with this. If they were living in the area, they had to be. It was so dominant. ANDERSON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). AVERY: They couldn' ; t walk the street. But, I also understand something else, too. I understand why our people were always encouraging our young men to go in the Army. When they got a certain age, they wanted them to get away from here. ANDERSON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). AVERY: And, that was a way to get out of this, by going in the Army and never coming back south again. Of course, everyone wasn' ; t able to leave. You know, people left. There was one lady that came into the museum ; she and her husband. And, she said ... she asked me, she said, " ; Why didn' ; t they fight?" ; With what, you know? With what? They did fight. Some people did. I' ; m saying, there were probably people who fought this thing and died, but fight ... And, I see from the middle of the 1400s, up to 1775, before the American Revolution, that that' ; s when we lost most of the most important things that we needed to have some identity. Some real self-identity with Africa. We lost knowledge of our culture, we lost knowledge of our language, and the biggest thing was the connection. AVERY: Because, it was like I explained it to this friend of mine that' ; s white. I explained to her ... her great-grandfather was Winston Churchill. But, she can go to Europe and visit her folk. I can' ; t. Different people in the family will be named after some of those folk. My name is Annie Pearl. It wouldn' ; t be Annie Pearl if my people had known about Africa ... if they could have remembered that. It was no longer prevalent, anymore. There' ; s some people who remembered coming in from Africa. There might have been some people who did. There were some people that came in after the American Revolution that might remember, or either might remember some of their people, or just before the emancipation, or whatever. ANDERSON: [inaudible 01:24:16] AVERY: Yeah, they could have remembered, but what would my name be if my folk could have remembered? Because, right now, I' ; m named after two aunts. I' ; m named after Aunt Annabel and Aunt Pearl. But, their names would have been something else. It wouldn' ; t be Annie Pearl. And, that' ; s what we have now. We have people who are looking for identity. Our people right now are looking for identity. And, some people are getting educated about Africa, and stuff like this, but if I went to Africa, who am I going to visit, in terms of visiting. You know, you figure you going to visit your aunt, or going to visit some of your relatives. ANDERSON: You' ; re a few generations away from that now, huh? AVERY: Yeah, I' ; m just saying, who would I visit? ANDERSON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). AVERY: I might be able to find out which region I came from with DNA, because DNA is powerful. But, I wouldn' ; t be able to find out who my aunts, and who my ... Now, President Obama can, because he was born in another era, you see? And, I- ANDERSON: You never stop learning. I' ; m turning this off. AVERY: Okay. I hope you did turn it off. ANDERSON: No, I haven' ; t. AVERY: Oh, okay. ANDERSON: But, I just thank you. Thank you. AVERY: Yeah. But- This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=APAvery2014.xml APAvery2014.xml
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Annie Pearl Avery
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Annie Pearl Avery discusses her involvement in the Civil Rights Movement after returning to Birmingham at the age of 14. From trying to join the Freedom Riders to marching on Bloody Sunday, she demonstrated and was arrested in both Alabama and Georgia throughout the 1960s. Annie details her involvement with SNCC and the future of activism.
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20140603A
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Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.)--1960-1970.
Freedom Rides, 1961
Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham
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2014-06-03
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video
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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Audrey Hendricks
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Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department
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5.4 May 25, 1995 Audrey Hendricks 19950525H 0:31:06 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Audrey Hendricks Horace Huntley Video 1:|7(9)|31(6)|51(10)|72(10)|96(8)|118(4)|133(6)|164(8)|189(7)|215(8)|236(11)|252(10)|275(4)|309(5)|344(12)|367(16)|385(4)|417(2)|433(15)|458(12)|480(5)|495(2)|512(5)|539(9)|556(3)|569(6)|581(1)|603(7)|625(8)|646(6)|656(4) 0 https://youtu.be/mjFtx0o1XFM YouTube video English 44 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Audrey Faye Hendricks for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Audrey Hendricks is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 60 Background and Family Life Thank you for taking time our of your schedule to come and sit with us today. I would just want to start by asking you some general kinds of questions about your family. Hendricks tells about her parent's education and jobs, how many siblings she has, and where she was born. Booker T. Washington Business College Birmingham (Ala.) ; Greene County (Ala.) 123 Educational Journey Tell me about your education. Where did you start school? Hendricks recalls where she went to elementary school, high school, and college. Fatima, Our Lady of ; Ramsay High School Birmingham (Ala.) 192 Attending Ramsay High School After Desegregation Describe to me what it was like going to Ramsay High School. Hendricks discusses how there was a cultural difference between the white and Black students at Ramsay High School. Integration ; Ramsay High School African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.) 420 Growing Up in the Titusville Community Tell me a bit about the community that you lived in. Hendricks recalls how her neighborhood was mainly Black and how the police would harass the people in her community. African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Birmingham (Ala.) 508 Moving to Dallas, Texas Then Back to Birmingham What did you do after high school? Hendricks tells how she left Birmingham to go to college but then decided to come back because she missed home. Bishop College Birmingham (Ala.) ; Dallas (Tex.) 551 Involvement in the Civil Rights Movement Tell me a little about your involvement in the Civil Rights Movement. Hendricks recalls her parents' involvement in the Movement and how she was involved as a child. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 635 Attending the Children's Mass Meetings Can you describe to me what the typical mass meeting was like from the perspective of a child? Hendricks discusses how there were mass meetings for adults and children but they typically covered the same topics of injustice and non-violent protests. Mass meetings ; Non-violent protests ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 831 Being Arrested at Eight Years Old What were the circumstances of your arrest? Hendricks discusses how she was arrested marching down 16th street and how her family supported her involvement in the march. Arrest (Police methods) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1016 Spending Two Weeks in Jail Were you inside or outside? Hendricks discusses how the children were separated by gender and would play in a recreation area during the day. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) 1059 Family's Reaction to Her Arrest So the morning that you had decided to be arrested, your parents took you to school? Hendricks recalls how her family was supportive of her desire to be arrested in order to help the movement. Arrest (Police methods) ; Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) 1114 Memories of the Police Dogs What does an eight year old think about when they are in jail for two weeks? Hendricks recalls seeing a man attacked by police dogs at the demonstration and how she knew this was an injustice even as a child. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Stewart, Shelley, 1934- Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States 1240 Her Perception of White People as a Child That's really amazing to have a child talk about it, you know, talk about it from the perspective of a child of six to eight years old and how in fact that impacted you at the time. Hendricks tells how even as a young child she knew that black people were experiencing injustices at the hands of white people. African Americans--Segregation ; Racial injustice Birmingham (Ala.) 1302 Community's Reaction to Her Arrest What church were you a member of? Hendricks discusses how the community was very supportive of her decision to participate in the march and be arrested. Civil rights movement ; New Pilgrim Baptist Church Arrest (Police methods) ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1389 Remembrance of the 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing The Movement continued of course after the demonstrations and in September of '63, the year that you were arrested, of course, the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church took place. Hendricks discusses her memories of the bombing and how she was sad to lose her friend, Denise McNair. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Denise McNair Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1472 Involvement in the Movement During High School Turbulent times. Were you involved after that? Hendricks recalls how she was not heavily involved in the movement in junior high and high school. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Ramsay High School Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1524 Accomplishments of the Movement What accomplishments did you see as a child that took place as a result of the Movement? Hendricks tells how the movement helped the adults have access to better jobs and the kids access to better education. Integration ; Racial equality Birmingham (Ala.) 1597 Stereotypes About the South When you were away from Birmingham and you were meeting other people and they found out you were from Birmingham, what were their reactions? Hendricks recalls how people in Dallas did not question her about the movement when she lived there. Bishop College ; Dallas (Tex.) Birmingham (Ala.) 1705 White People Who Helped the Movement Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with in relationship to your participation and how you felt as a child and the kinds of things that you were involved in and how you related to other people. Hendricks recalled how white people from out of state helped the movement. Boycotts ; Christmas Birmingham (Ala.) 1817 Conclusion of Interview Well, I certainly do appreciate you taking the time out today and come out and talk with us because your perspective from that tender age, is so vitally important for what we are attempting to do. Interview is concluded. Oral History Audrey Hendricks discusses spending two weeks in jail at eight years old after being arrested for demonstrating. She then lost her friend, Denise McNair, in the bombing of 16th Street Baptist church in the same year. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Audrey Faye Hendricks for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 1, 1995. Welcome, Ms. Hendricks. HENDRICKS: Thank you. HUNTLEY: Thank for taking time out of your schedule to come and sit with us today. I would just want to start by asking you some general kinds of questions about your family. Where are your parents from? Are they originally from Birmingham? HENDRICKS: My mother is from Birmingham -- is a native Birmingham. My father is a native of Boligee, Alabama which is in Greene County. HUNTLEY: I see. Where were you born? HENDRICKS: I was born in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters are there? HENDRICKS: There are two of us. I am the oldest of two girls. HUNTLEY: Tell me just a bit about the education of your parents. How much schooling did they have? HENDRICKS: My mother finished Booker T. Washington Business College and my father did not complete elementary school, being in a rural township. HUNTLEY: What were their occupations? HENDRICKS: My father was a laborer. He worked for Jim Dandy at the time and my mother worked for Alexander and Company with a black insurance company at that time doing clerical kinds of things. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your education. Where did you start school? Did you start at Center Street? HENDRICKS: I started at Center Street. I went there for four years. And after the four years I went to private school, to Our Lady of Fatima. After desegregation I went to Ramsay High School and I left Birmingham in ' ; 71 and went to Bishop College in Dallas, Texas. I came back to Birmingham for awhile in the ' ; 80s and went to UAB and took some courses towards my Masters. HUNTLEY: So you went to Fatima? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Was that high school? HENDRICKS: Our Lady of Fatima was an elementary school. It was Immaculata initially. And Immaculata was no more and it ended up being an elementary school and the children who were at Our Lady of Fatima on 14th Street South at that time were then moved down to what was known then as Immaculata High School. HUNTLEY: Right. HENDRICKS: And that is where I started with them for the last -- well, I should say 5th through 8th grade. HUNTLEY: Describe to me what it was like going to Ramsay High School. What year did you go to Ramsay? HENDRICKS: I started there in ' ; 71. When I went to Ramsay High School it was immediately right after desegregation, well, whenever they decided to start letting Black children go to high school. I remember for the first two weeks, we all sat in the auditorium because they didn' ; t quite know what to do with us. HUNTLEY: You mean the Black children sat in the auditorium? HENDRICKS: Yes. Ramsay had it set up at that time where children before the school term would end, say like now in May of ' ; 95, they would have already elected what courses they would take for the upcoming fall term. So, what they had to do was to get us situated in classes and I guess basically find out what do we do with these children that have just shown up here based on what the laws are now. HUNTLEY: Today, in order to get into Ramsay you have to take a test. HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Was there a test at that time? HENDRICKS: No. it was a public school. HENDRICKS: From my understanding I think at that time it was, it' ; s an alternative school now, and I think what they have done, is gone back to the concept that they had then. During the times that I was there I went to school with the Bruno' ; s children, the Salem' ; s children, that own the restaurants, so I knew those children. HUNTLEY: Well, how were you accepted in those years that you were at Ramsay? In the initial stages? HENDRICKS: In the initial stage of it, we had to kind of -- us as Black children, had to kind of bind together as friends. It was very difficult. There was some hatred among children. Whites against Blacks and vice versa. I guess, well, some of us, I witnessed some fights of the two races. Some name calling. Not a whole lot, but just little things that would happen during the school years. But as my graduation got closer it got a little bit better by the fourth year. HUNTLEY: Ramsay was probably desegregated maybe as early as ' ; 66 or so? Is that right ' ; 66 or ' ; 67? So you were not the first class were you? HENDRICKS: I was not the first class that I am aware of. HUNTLEY: But all of the Black kids were placed in the auditorium at the beginning of the year? HENDRICKS: Yes. In ' ; 71. HUNTLEY: That' ; s very interesting. What do you remember most about Ramsay? HENDRICKS: I think the thing that I remember most about Ramsay again is the friendships, the togetherness that we had. HUNTLEY: Between the Blacks and the Whites? HENDRICKS: Primarily Blacks and Blacks. I think that for Blacks and Whites it gave me an appreciation or understanding I guess of dealing with another culture. Prior to that I had been based in just my culture. And in going to Ramsay it helped me understand some things that are just innate in people and cultures that you may not have known prior to mixing with other races. HUNTLEY: Like what, for instance? HENDRICKS: Well, one thing I think was the temperature. Something as simple as that. We tend, in the winter, to be very cold natured and want to put on a lot of clothes. I found that we would have big arguments about, " ; Let the window down." ; The Whites would always say, " ; It' ; s too hot in here." ; And we would always think it would be comfortable. A lot of times you didn' ; t have boys that would just physically lash out and that kind of thing at Black girls to show playfulness at that time. HUNTLEY: So there were differences, cultural differences? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a bit about the community that you lived in. What community did you live in? HENDRICKS: I lived in Titusville, is what they call that area, which is the southwest side off of 6th Avenue South and Center Street. HUNTLEY: How would you describe the community? HENDRICKS: The community was mixed. We had school teachers. We had business persons. I lived across the street from Paul Harris who worked for Protective Industrial for years. Some doctors in the community and general laborers. We had people that worked at ACIPICO and plants like that. HUNTLEY: So you mean mixed in terms of economic status? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Racial make-up? HENDRICKS: It was predominately Black. HUNTLEY: Was it predominately Black or all Black? HENDRICKS: 100 percent. HUNTLEY: What do you remember in terms of recreation in the community? HENDRICKS: The only recreation that we had at that time was Memorial Park which was not very far from where I lived. HUNTLEY: What was your perception of your community' ; s relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? HENDRICKS: None really. If they were breaking in, you would see policemen and something of that nature. And that was very rare that anything would happen. But, nothing where they just came to the community and harassing about it to my recollection. HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school? HENDRICKS: I left Birmingham and moved to Dallas, Texas and went to college there for four years. HUNTLEY: To what school? HENDRICKS: Bishop College. HUNTLEY: And after college did you come back to Birmingham? HENDRICKS: No. I lived in Dallas for the next four years and I worked in mental health for Dallas County Mental Health and Retardation and worked with children there with emotional problems in a residential setting. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to come back to Birmingham? HENDRICKS: Well, I decided that I had been there long enough and I just wanted to kind of come back home -- just drew me back home after a while. HUNTLEY: The attraction of home? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your involvement in the Civil Rights Movement. How and why did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement? HENDRICKS: Well, for me it was no way for me not to really be involved. My parents were involved from the point that I could remember. My mother was assistant secretary of the Alabama Christian Movement. My mother had gone to jail for riding on the bus. My church was involved. It was just no way around it. You were there and just a part of it, so that' ; s how I got involved. HUNTLEY: So you were simply surrounded by it? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you were in fact a child of the Movement I would say? HENDRICKS: Yes. And some people, sometimes when you look on the media and talk shows that they have now where they have people talk about what kind of people that came through your home. It wasn' ; t rare for me to see Fred Shuttlesworth, you know, to come to my home. It wasn' ; t rare for Dr. King to maybe come by sometimes. So those people I remember as a child. HUNTLEY: What was that like to be in the presence of Shuttlesworth or King, people that were in the news an awful lot? HENDRICKS: Well, at that age, you know, it' ; s just someone coming by. Again, being a child you don' ; t really understand until like now. Like, " ; Wow, these people I knew and were in my home." ; HUNTLEY: You attended the mass meetings? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what the typical mass meeting was like from the perspective of a child? What age are we talking about? How old were you when you were first arrested? HENDRICKS: When I was finally arrested, I was eight years old. So from the inception I had been in the Movement all the time. Whenever they began, as far as I know, when they began mass meetings, I was there because of my mother and father. I don' ; t ever remember a time we were not in the meeting, whether or not -- initially we would start it at 16th Street from what I could remember. And later, as it grew, they ended up having two meetings. Meetings where they had adults and then meetings where they had the children. HUNTLEY: You mean mass meetings, where you would have a meeting for the adults and a meeting for the children? HENDRICKS: Yes. Because we had outgrown 16th Street so there would end up being two places. I remember Andy Young and some of them being part of the mass meetings where the younger people would be and I think in my mind it had to be because it was just so many people and we had packed 16th Street out. And so the children became involved and that' ; s how we ended up there. But the meetings themselves were, in my mind from what I can remember, was energy. It was very organized. People responded. I remember times when they would say, " ; If we are going to march tomorrow, if you have any weapons, come down and put them on the table." ; And there would be people to come down and put knives on the table and those kinds of things. So it was great impact. HUNTLEY: Were these younger people? HENDRICKS: Different ages. Depending upon which meeting that all would go to. HUNTLEY: So you could actually attend either meeting, the adult meeting or the children' ; s meeting? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: How were the two meetings different? HENDRICKS: There was not any difference in the meetings. The same kind of thing where there was singing, there was strategies. They talked about what would happen if you are going to march. Well, not what would happen, but if you had decided that you were going to march, that you did not need to take weapons. This is a non-violent organization and we want, they stressed that very strongly. That this is non-violence involved in it. HUNTLEY: There were, I know in the adult meetings, there were many testimonies that were given about what people were experiencing. Did you have the same kind of testimony? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were these done by younger people? HENDRICKS: Teenagers primarily. People may have been high school or college age persons at that time. Or sometimes adults. It would be mingled. But you would find that children with teens and young adults and maybe my age would be more prone to draw to that church where they were organized there. But you could go to either one. It was not separate, per se. HUNTLEY: It was not a restrictive bunch? HENDRICKS: Right. HUNTLEY: Were Birmingham police present at the meetings? HENDRICKS: If they were, they were not dressed in their uniform for me to know that there were police around. HUNTLEY: But if they were, they would have been White. So were there Whites in the meetings? HENDRICKS: Not that I ever remember seeing. HUNTLEY: You were arrested? HENDRICKS: I was arrested. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances of your arrest? HENDRICKS: Well, I had gone to a mass meeting one particular night and when I went home I just told my mother and father that there was something that I wanted to do and they told me okay. HUNTLEY: You told them that you wanted to go to jail? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And they agreed? HENDRICKS: They agreed. HUNTLEY: So what happened? Where were you? HENDRICKS: When I told my parents? HUNTLEY: No. I assume you were at home when you told your parents and that was the night after -- HENDRICKS: One of the mass meetings. And during the day I went to see my grandparents my mother' ; s side, and my grandparents on my father' ; s side and whoever was there would tell me I was going to jail. I remember telling the teacher. We went by the school and she cried. HUNTLEY: Oh, you mean, you left home that morning and you went to the school? HENDRICKS: Yes. I was just kind of telling people what I was going to do. And I remember the teacher crying about it. You know, I think she was just touched about the whole thing. HUNTLEY: Do you remember the teacher? HENDRICKS: A Miss B. P. Wills. HUNTLEY: Miss B. P. Wills. What grade were you in? HENDRICKS: I would have been, at that time, in the 3rd grade or the 4th grade. HUNTLEY: How long were you in jail? HENDRICKS: Two weeks. HUNTLEY: Two weeks? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you were eight? HENDRICKS: Yes. Eight years old. HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what happened during the arrest? Were you marching? HENDRICKS: We marched from 16th Street and I think that we got to the next block where Booker T. Washington and WENN radio is now. We got half-way the block and they put us in the paddy wagon and they took us to juvenile hall. And my remembrance now, that apparently right after I was arrested there must have been the big thrust when so many other people were arrested, and they ended up at the fairgrounds. Because you would get news sometimes that there' ; s no more room here and they are now putting people out at the fairgrounds because there is no other jails, they were all filled. But they arrested me and I went in the paddy wagon. The first day we went into this room that looked like a classroom and we, the children, all of a sudden there for a while. And there was not any harassment or anything of any people there. I remember later on, I don' ; t know if it was the same day or some days later, I went into maybe a conference room where there were Whites that was asking questions about the movement. And in my mind I was wondering whether or not they were trying to find out was anything communistic in the Movement. HUNTLEY: Were these policemen? HENDRICKS: They did not have on uniforms. They were plainclothes people. And they would ask what went on in the meetings. What kinds of things do they talk about and we all responded that we talked about non-violence and discrimination and that kind of thing? And whether or not that they thought that they were telling us anything about overthrowing the government and of course, not. And that was about it. The rest of the time, you were just there. HUNTLEY: Were you inside or outside? HENDRICKS: I was inside. Where we slept at night and during the day, it was like a dormitory setting. The rooms had bunk beds and it was one on top of the other. It may have been where it could, and I am estimating, maybe 15-20 people tops. HUNTLEY: Were these all girls in one area? HENDRICKS: All girls. HUNTLEY: And the boys in another area? HENDRICKS: Exactly, yes. HUNTLEY: What did you do during the day? HENDRICKS: During the day we would go outside maybe to the -- they had like a recreational area outside. There was no classes per se to keep up any of your academics. So you just were there basically. HUNTLEY: So the morning that you had decided to be arrested, your parents took you to school? HENDRICKS: Right. To let Miss Wills know. HUNTLEY: And then they took you down to the church? HENDRICKS: Well, we went by my family' ; s home to let them know. And then we went to the church. HUNTLEY: What was your family' ; s reaction? HENDRICKS: Well, my father' ; s family, brothers were all really involved in the Movement. Well, not all, but a large majority of them were involved, so it was like, " ; Okay, we are very proud of you." ; So there was no one that was upset negatively about it. HUNTLEY: Were there others of your age there, at the time that you were arrested? HENDRICKS: I think that there were a few others. I didn' ; t know them personally, but I understand from reading, that there were others that may have been as young as I was. HUNTLEY: What does an eight-year-old think about when they are in jail for two weeks? HENDRICKS: At that time, I thought I was just part of the cause. That I was helping the cause. In my mind I could understand injustice and I think that I could stand that because of the recollection of the maybe the first meeting that made an impact to me. It was, I think Shelley Stewart at that time was at the meeting and they were talking. You could just feel the people' ; s emotions. I guess that' ; s what you know, you could just tell this person is serious about this. This is something going on. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Shelley Stewart? HENDRICKS: He was just talking about the injustices and how we should not be treated the way that we were. And after they talked for awhile then they had a demonstration. This elderly man was part of the demonstration and I witnessed a dog attacking him and it was like, " ; Oh, my God." ; HUNTLEY: So you did see the dogs? HENDRICKS: Yes. Yes. HUNTLEY: And the water hoses? HENDRICKS: I did not ever see the water hoses. That was the one thing that I remember. HUNTLEY: How did that impact you? HENDRICKS: I thought that it was awful at the time for, in my mind, I had witnessed the beginning where something I was just talking to people. Then you go out and all you want to do is march and it' ; s something that' ; s non-violent and I didn' ; t understand about the permits of course, as a child then. But I didn' ; t see anything wrong as a child to be able to march in a group to say I don' ; t like what is going on and then you going to put a dog on me. HUNTLEY: How near was the dog to you physically? HENDRICKS: I wasn' ; t very close. I was close enough. Maybe I would say half a block. HUNTLEY: The man was not near you, you just saw it from a distance? HENDRICKS: Yes. I saw it from a distance. HUNTLEY: That' ; s really amazing to have a child talk about it, you know, talk about it from the perspective of a child of six to eight years old and how in fact that impacted you at the time. Did that have anything to do with the way that you perceived White people as a result of your participation in the movement? HENDRICKS: You mean negatively? HUNTLEY: Yes. HENDRICKS: No. Not at the time it did not. I guess in a child' ; s mind, you don' ; t really, you have not experienced the kind of injustices that my parents probably had. But just the incident with the gentlemen, I could understand that that was wrong. HUNTLEY: Were you aware of the " ; colored" ; fountains or the boards on the buses or any of those things that were just vividly displayed? HENDRICKS: No. Not vividly. I don' ; t remember the boards on the buses. I do remember the fountains. When we would shop sometime, I would go with my grandmother to shop. But I didn' ; t ever have any incidents or any encounters I guess. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of? HENDRICKS: New Pilgrim Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: And New Pilgrim, of course, was very actively involved. Your pastor was very involved. You your family, in fact. I know your mother and father. HENDRICKS: And my father had some brothers that were arrested as well. A couple of brothers. HUNTLEY: As you said, you had no other alternative. Tell me, after this is over, after you are released from jail, what was the reception when you returned to school, do you remember? HENDRICKS: It had to have been fine. I don' ; t remember anybody teasing me, if that' ; s what you mean, or giving me a hard time about it. Life just continued as it was before I went to jail. I had no problems with my peers or the teachers. HUNTLEY: Did they look at you as a hero or a shero? HENDRICKS: I don' ; t think that they really understood. HUNTLEY: The teacher that cried. Do you remember after you returned, anything about her? HENDRICKS: No. Not anything. I think that at the time she had pretty much expressed in her tears. HUNTLEY: The Movement continued of course after the demonstrations and in September of ' ; 63, the year that you were arrested, of course, the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church took place. Do you remember that? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about it? HENDRICKS: I remember Denise McNair. HUNTLEY: Oh, you knew her. HUNTLEY: Yes. HUNTLEY: What were the emotions of the times when that happened? HENDRICKS: I was shocked. She was a year older than I was. HUNTLEY: Did she go to Center Street? HENDRICKS: Yes. She went to Center Street. Her mother was a teacher at Center Street at that time. I remember after her death, I think that they had the polio vaccines that they were giving in the sugar cubes and you had to go to Center Street to get them and after her death, I remember them bringing her to the school to get her, I guess the sugar cubes and how the people would have to just kind of hold her up, she was just that distraught over losing her child. I think that at that time, Denise may have been the only child. HUNTLEY: You mean the mother? HENDRICKS: The mother. Denise' ; s mother. It may have been the only child at that time that she had. I remember that as a child. HUNTLEY: Turbulent times. Were you involved after that? As you went on into junior high school and high school were you involved at all in any of the Movement? HENDRICKS: Not particularly. There was one guy that went to Ramsay with me whose sister sang in the Alabama Christian Movement Choir and I remember him because they were rehearsing. We would see each other. My father was in the choir as well as his sister and we would see each other there and he was really the only person that I really knew other than some of my friends that grew up in the neighborhood that we would talk alot. Because we had that common bond with the Movement of any of the other friends that I had. HUNTLEY: What accomplishments did you see as a child that took place as a result of the Movement? HENDRICKS: I think the biggest accomplishments were at the beginning were jobs for adults from that. I know that my mother was able to leave Alexander and Company and work for the federal government which she would have not been able to prior to the demonstrations. In my -- just in the community itself, you could see people moving up and being able to have better jobs. Being able to go to the restaurants that you had never been able to go to before that you could only kind of look out, I guess, outside through the window. The school, for me. Being able to go to Ramsay whereas it had not been available to me and anybody that wanted to go. So, just an abundance of things that had not been before. And I think that it has helped relationships for Blacks and Whites in some aspects. HUNTLEY: When you were away from Birmingham and you were meeting from other people and they found out you were from Birmingham, what were their reactions? HENDRICKS: I guess in some instances the same way that it is now when you say that you are from the South. The people have these preconceived notions about everybody lives in shotgun houses or we are on the farm. I don' ; t think at that time that a lot of people were into the history of Birmingham. They didn' ; t ask me a lot of questions about, you know, how you were involved, what did you all do. HUNTLEY: They did not ask you any questions about it? HENDRICKS: No. HUNTLEY: Were there others at Bishop from Birmingham or others in Dallas? HENDRICKS: No. Just myself. HENDRICKS: At that time that I knew. I met people later that were from there but no one that I knew prior to going. HUNTLEY: Well, did you have any difficulties in returning to Birmingham? I know many people who have left Birmingham will say, " ; Well, they left Birmingham and they' ; d never come back." ; Was that ever a problem for you? HENDRICKS: No. Not at all. HUNTLEY: One of the things that sort of strikes me is that I always considered myself coming back to Birmingham eventually. Even during the days of segregation, I said that I was going to leave and I was going to come back. But as I told people that I was coming back, they would always say, " ; Why? Why are you going back to Birmingham?" ; Did that happen at all to you? HENDRICKS: No. Not at all. HUNTLEY: No one questioned why you would -- HENDRICKS: Why would I go back to Birmingham? HUNTLEY: Yes. HENDRICKS: None. HUNTLEY: That' ; s interesting. Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with in relationship to your participation and how you felt as a child and the kinds of things that you were involved in and how you related to other people. Or even how it is -- that experience impacted upon your lifelong term? HENDRICKS: The only other thing that I did not talk about that I did think about as I was sitting here and there were -- we always talk about the power, we always talked about what the Whites did not do. But there were people that did do things to help and assist. And I remember one year when it was near Christmas time and I think there must have been a boycott going on of the stores where they were not to buy things, I know people were shipping toys down to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Shipping from? HENDRICKS: From other states. HENDRICKS: So the children could have toys. And I remember as a child to see all these toys and they came to my home, some of the things did and to have to get rid of them, of course, because you couldn' ; t keep them all for yourself. But you know, just to know that there were people who did care, who were not Black. Who were white people who were with the cause.HUNTLEY: So people were sending toys to your address? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And then your parents had to distribute them to other children? HENDRICKS: Yes. Because of the boycott and they wanted children to have a Christmas. And I guess that the overall picture, well I just see people, just Black people in general walking down the street in their suits and ties and you kind of say, " ; Hum, I had a part in that." ; HUNTLEY: Well, I certainly do appreciate you taking the time out today and come out and talk with us because your perspective from that tender age, is so vitally important for what we are attempting to do. And we will review this and we may want to talk with you again. Thank you again. HENDRICKS: Alright. Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AHendricks1995.xml AHendricks1995.xml
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Audrey Hendricks
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Audrey Hendricks discusses spending two weeks in jail at eight years old after being arrested for demonstrating. She then lost her friend, Denise McNair, in the bombing of 16th Street Baptist church in the same year.
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19950525H
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963
Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.)
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1995-05-25
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video
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Laura Anderson
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Barbara Cross
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King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
Ramsey High School
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5.4 October 15, 2012 Barbara Cross Interviewed on October 15, 2012 20121015C 1:22:53 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Till, Emmett, 1941-1955 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Ramsey High School Barbara Cross Laura Anderson Oral History 1:|21(2)|33(5)|43(8)|55(9)|66(2)|81(1)|92(2)|103(4)|118(9)|148(14)|169(8)|186(1)|198(3)|217(6)|240(8)|255(11)|267(10)|278(12)|286(11)|298(9)|318(11)|339(6)|348(5)|358(15)|368(6)|381(15)|390(5)|400(13)|412(2)|422(14)|434(7)|446(13)|457(11)|467(3)|477(3)|485(1)|493(9)|505(6)|514(7)|527(5)|540(8)|552(4)|562(8)|571(9)|585(16)|603(12)|614(7)|626(15)|644(16)|657(3)|669(13)|682(5)|691(13)|702(16)|715(9)|727(8)|737(11)|748(16)|759(7)|771(10)|785(1)|797(8)|817(2)|831(7)|844(4)|867(14)|881(7)|895(14)|913(4)|928(5)|940(7)|952(10)|964(2)|976(2)|985(12)|999(16)|1011(11)|1025(12)|1044(11)|1052(8)|1065(16)|1082(7) 0 https://youtu.be/LXGfHliswpY YouTube video English 18 Introduction of Interview I want to thank you so much for making a trip, also, to do this. Today is Monday, October 15, and the year is 2012. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 71 Growing Up in Virginia Growing up in Richmond, I remember being a happy little girl. Cross recalls what it was like growing up in Richmond, Virginia. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Richmond (Va.) Girl Scouts of the United States of America ; Kilmonic (Va.) 173 Family Background and Moving to Birmingham Can you tell me what you remember about arrival in this city, and do you know what, if any, preconceived notions you had about Birmingham? Cross discusses what it was like moving to Birmingham and what her community was like. Richmond (Va.) ; Titusville (Al). African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 662 Everyday Life in Birmingham Just what everyday life was like... Cross tells what everyday life was like when her family first arrived in Birmingham. Leeds (Ala.) ; Racial disparity Birmingham (Ala.) ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 837 Personal Recollection of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church Bombing Can you tell me your first memory of, discussion of, the movement? And maybe Monday night meetings... Cross recalls what she remembers experiencing during the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church bombing. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 1214 Aftermath of the Bombing Because she knew. And she said, 'Where's Lynn?' and we can't find Lynn. Cross recalls the immediate aftermath of the bombing and how Dr. King came to visit her father. Birmingham (Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 1677 Living in Fear in Birmingham Did life turn back to normal? Not for me, because the sound of that day still reverberated in my mind for about ten years. Cross recalls how after the bombing she spent her life living in fear. Post-traumatic stress disorder 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1900 Memories from the Bombing Trial OK, well, he blamed himself for the bombing, and he was giving them all the information about, because he had testified about from the grand jury, and one of my neighbors brought my dad over to Birmingham for that. Cross discusses what life was like during the bombing trial. Blanton, Thomas ; Ku Klux Klan 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Birmingham (Ala.) 2260 Her Father's Impact on the Civil Rights Movement But I miss my friends, but I like to think that, they are angels of change. Cross discusses her father's impact on the Civil Rights Movement. Alabama State University ; Atlanta (Ga.) ; Lee, Spike Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 2919 Meeting Emmett Till's Mother Right, right, and I met Ms. Till, now I'm reminded that you should say that, when I came over on one of the tours, she was with John Lewis' group, and I come over here every year with Ms. Lowery's group. Cross recalls meeting Emmitt Till's mother. Reverend John Cross Birmingham (Ala.) ; Till, Emmett, 1941-1955 2993 Recalling Her Father Searching the Bombing Rubble He had to, to show with his camera what ... four beautiful girls look like when they came out of the church. Cross discusses her father going through the rubble of the church after the bombing. Lee, Spike 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Birmingham (Ala.) 3188 Life at Sixteenth Street Baptist Church After the Bombing Can you tell me, if you remember, of if you remember your father talking about, the weeks and months after this happened. Cross recalls what it was like in the church after the bombing and how she testified in the trial. Birmingham-Southern College ; Southern Poverty Law Center. Civil Rights Education Project Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 3781 Her Siblings' Experience of Segregation and the Movement Uh, Michael, all I remember, and I don't know whether this is the type of effect he has, he used to always say when he got to be a teenager, that he never wanted to work for a white person. Cross recalls how her siblings behaved after the bombing and how they integrated Ramsey High School. Blacks--Segregation ; Ramsey High School Birmingham (Ala.) ; Integration 4166 Her Family's Experience of the Conclusion of the Trial Doug Jones, yeah. Yes, he came to my father's homegoing service. Him and Sidney Sheldon. Cross recalls how her father's health was in decline but he still made it to the conclusion of the trial. Blanton, Thomas ; Jones, Doug Atlanta (Ga.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) 4340 Sacredness of Birmingham After the Movement You know, people come here from all over the world every day and they are on a pilgrimage. Cross discusses how she enjoys that people travel to Birmingham to reflect on the past and to see how far the Movement has come. Angels of Change ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 4683 Sharing Her Story I like speaking engagements, but one thing was the best thing I think I ever did. Cross recalls her most important interview where she talked about her experience in the bombing. Oregon ; Reverend John Cross Reflections from a Violent Past 4956 Conclusion of Interview We can get a new tape, or we can say it is done. Interview is concluded. Video Barbara Cross discusses surviving the Sixteenth Street Church Bombing in great detail. Her father, Rev. John Cross Jr., was the pastor at the time. ANDERSON: It should be recording. I' ; m not going to wear my microphone, because I' ; m not important. CROSS: You' ; re not being seen. Wait a minute, you' ; re important, because this is your job. You' ; re very important to your institution. Which is very good, I' ; m honored. ANDERSON: Well, we are honored to have you here today. CROSS: Thank you -- ANDERSON: I want to thank you so much for making a trip, also, to do this. Today is Monday, October 15, and the year is 2012. I' ; m Laura Anderson, and I work in the archives here at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute, and we' ; re really proud to have you, Barbara Cross, join us for this oral history interview. CROSS: Thank you. I' ; m honored to be here to share my history. ANDERSON: Thanks. Yeah, I like to just have a conversation. If you could tell me, um, before we forget this detail, to give me your full date of birth and place? CROSS: Sure. I' ; m Barbara Ann Cross. I was born on June 6, 1950, in Richmond, Virginia, which is Henrico County. ANDERSON: OK. Tell me about your childhood and youth, if you will. CROSS: Growing up in Richmond, I remember being a happy little girl. I' ; m the oldest of, uh, four siblings ; and I have a sister, Alma, who' ; s two years, uh, younger than me ; and then I have a sister, Onieta Lynn Cross -- we call her by her middle name, Lynn -- and she' ; s the baby girl, she was born in 1958 ; and, my brother Michael Juvan Cross was born in 1957. Life for us in Virginia was real normal. We would always love to go visit my maternal grandmother, who lived in a rural area, Kilmonic, Virginia, during the summer months. I remember being in the Girl Scouts in Birmingham and camping. In 1962, when I was 12 years old, I was excited about moving to a new city, because I had never lived nowhere except for Richmond. My sister next to me, she had a problem, because she had close friends, and she didn' ; t want to leave her friends. And, my father was called to pastor the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. And we arrived in Birmingham June, the summer of 1962. And, I was excited about meeting new friends, uh, going to a new school when the fall came, but little did I realize that Birmingham would be, turn into a nightmare for us, because I did not know about the demonstrations that were to come, or about Dr. King. ANDERSON: Can you tell me what you remember about arrival in this city, and do you know what, if any, preconceived notions you had about Birmingham? CROSS: I had no preconceived notions, because my probably father probably tried to shield us about the type of racial crime that was here, so the only thing I knew was that I wanted to meet new friends, come to a new environment, and I was excited. And, we moved into a nice neighborhood, it was in the what they called the Titusville area. If you' ; re familiar with Sixth Avenue Baptist Church, it' ; s in that community, Goldwire Way, and that was the church parsonage. The, the home across the street, which was the previous minister before my dad got there, was Reverend Beard, and they lived in, that was the parsonage then, next to the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church, which is now office space. So, the people at the church were so welcoming to us, my family -- and most ministers back in those days, they fed the pastor and his family -- so, we had great church members. So, I was happy so far as the neighborhood, meeting friends in the neighborhood, and school hadn' ; t started yet, so my nightmare did not really start until the summer of 1963. But I was happy-go-lucky, like I said, based on our church family, the neighbors that I had developed new friendships in the neighborhood. But it was when, the summer of ' ; 63, is when we were aware of a lot of the demonstrations, and after going to school and hearing things. It' ; s amazing when I think about TV today and now, most of the homes then only had about one or two TVs, and we didn' ; t really watch the news much. I remember reading the newspapers about nuclear weapons, and missiles, the bay of Cu, missile crisis, and thinking about that, because in schools, we would have, instead of fire drills, we had to get in the hallway and put our head down between our legs because of the, uh, the -- I don' ; t know what kind of drill they called it, but it was like because of nuclear weapons. So, but it was the summer of ' ; 63, and September, is when we were exposed to the violence that happened in Birmingham. ANDERSON: Before we get to that, can you tell me a little bit about your home life, and what your parents were like -- CROSS: OK ANDERSON: and, um -- CROSS: By my dad being a pastor, he was away at the church a lot during, preparing his, his sermons on Sunday, and I had a close friend in the neighborhood -- and actually went to college together later -- but, and she liked to play bid Whist cards, and we had some other neighbors behind us, they used to have parties -- what they call waistline parties, and whatever your waistline was, you paid to get into the garage -- so we enjoyed that type of things. And, I liked going to the library on Saturday, we would buy these little " ; fizzies" ; and put it in water, and we would drink and read our books, and I was like happy as a lark. And also we enjoyed going back to visit our grandmother in the summer. So, the summer of ' ; 63, we would go back to Virginia, but because of the hotels were segregated, we either had to drive a long way before we got to Kilmonic, Virginia. We were afraid to go through, I was afraid when my dad went through Mississippi, but I think he went to Mississippi when we visit my paternal grandmother. I didn' ; t meet my grandmother on my father' ; s side ' ; til I was 25, so I had my cousins to visit from Arkansas, because we were always closer to my mom' ; s side of the family, because we lived in Virginia. So my dad would go visit his family, but I didn' ; t meet her until we moved to Alabama, so that was interesting to become closer to my, uh, dad' ; s side of the family, my cousins, so it was a new set of family. And my grandmother lived to be at least 102. And she died probably in the -- middle ' ; 90s. But my mother' ; s, got to, mother got a chance to visit us in the summer -- or was it one Easter in ' ; 63. And we have a picture of her in the church, and that was before the church was bombed. But, I have a lot of good memories prior to September the 15th, 1963. ANDERSON: Now your father was from Arkansas? CROSS: Yeah, he was born in Haynes, Arkansas. But how he got to Virginia, because he was in service, and then he went to school at Rich, Virginia Union -- I don' ; t know whether it' ; s College or University, but it' ; s University now. In fact, the Atlanta alumni chapter is named after my father. ANDERSON: Hmm. CROSS: But it' ; s ironic -- my mother had, has a twin brother, he' ; s still living, my mother is deceased -- and, usually when you preach at a rural church, it' ; s not many restaurants in the area, so my uncle, which is my mom' ; s twin brother, invited him to dinner after the church service. And the rest is history. They said they were winking at each other across the dinner table. And they married, and we moved to Richmond, and my dad, uh, we lived in Richmond, I was born in 1950, so we, I was there in Richmond from 1950 to our move to Birmingham in 1962. ANDERSON: If you' ; ll excuse me one second. CROSS: OK. -- will I be able to see what I did? I know I can' ; t have a copy of it, but -- ANDERSON: You can have a copy of it. CROSS: I can have a copy of it? ANDERSON: But of course. CROSS: Oh, get out of here, thank you! ANDERSON: Of course. CROSS: I know when my dad did, are you familiar with the lady in Chicago, that has a -- ANDERSON: The History Makers? Mmm hmm. CROSS: He did that the year before he died, at home, and I have not even looked at the DVD yet, because, I was there with him. But, we used that picture, that suit he had on, the picture they had, we used that part of his obituary service. ANDERSON: Oh, OK. CROSS: Uh, huh. It' ; s on his program. And it was so funny, because my dad, a lot of things he couldn' ; t remember, and I was there to kind of coax him. They said, ' ; let him talk about it,' ; cause they asked him what his favorite food was, or his favorite color, and I don' ; t ever remember him having a favorite color, but I guess they wanted him, to see him in his natural, whatever he could remember. ANDERSON: Mmm hmm. CROSS: And it was real interesting, did it in in the home, and that' ; s the first time I had really seen or, oral history presentation being done, and I was there to guide him. ANDERSON: OK CROSS: And be there part of it with him. ANDERSON: Well of course, um, we might take for granted that your family' ; s experience here in Birmingham, uh, maybe, became so much a part of your family' ; s story that you would have to live with it every day afterward, um. But I guess if you' ; re ready to tell that story, we can do that -- CROSS: Oh, I' ; m ready -- ANDERSON: I love getting ideas about what life was like for your family before that happened. CROSS: Right. ANDERSON: Umm, just what everyday life was like, and -- CROSS: And it was normal. My younger sister, uh, stayed at home. My mom didn' ; t work outside of the home, to my knowledge. I know before probably she married my dad she was an educator, but I think she was a homemaker, because he had several jobs, in, -- before he got to Birmingham, because ministers back then probably didn' ; t make much -- he was in a rural part of the Richmond area, it' ; s called Chesterfield County. And, I was looking at what he had said before, that they wanted him to be full-time and don' ; t do anything else, and he said, ' ; But I' ; m not getting full-time pay, I' ; m part-time.' ; So, back then they got part-time pay for full-time service, and he had to be, I think, to help a heart surgeon to do the pump and stuff like that. Well, here, this was his full-time job at Sixteenth Street, so my mom might have been more of aware of things that were going on about the movement. And, my day to day activities, when the summer, was just making friends in the neighborhood, active in youth programs at the church, because Sixteenth Street, we used to go to -- I think it' ; s called Leeds, Alabama -- so, it was an amusement park, so I don' ; t know whether it was just for blacks, but we had a good time when we went to Leeds, Alabama. So there was a lot of things that we were sheltered from, and so we felt happy. Prior to ' ; 63. So, it was like, life is good for me. But my sister next to me, I think she was still moaning the friendship that she left behind. In fact, as a little girl, I remembered hearing things, you know how we listen in on adult conversations, not sure what we' ; re gonna listen to? Well, I remember my mama, my mama said she had something in, growing in her stomach, and I was like, oh she has a baby in her stomach? But then I found out she had developed an ulcer, because she really did not want to move, she had to drink special water and stuff, but I was like, happy-go-lucky. So, she was the one that eventually met a close friend in Birmingham, and it was the daughter of Reverend Nelson Smith. In fact, Ms. Smith just passed, I think, a couple of weeks ago. And his church was in our neighborhood, it was Sixth Avenue on one side, and -- New Pilgrim on the opposite end. ANDERSON: Hmm. CROSS: But at the time we were living there, it was built in the neighborhood I think some years later, after we left. And, so, Alma had a friendship and my brother had a neighbor friend, so we were happy kids. Because we did not know about the movement that was getting ready, things that were taking place, that we were not aware of. ANDERSON: Can you tell me your first memory of, discussion of, the movement? And maybe Monday night meetings -- CROSS: That part I didn' ; t know until later, but I, I was aware that we couldn' ; t go to certain theaters in Birmingham, they were segregated, but we could go to a movie. But I think it was maybe -- the spring of 1963, when Dr. King actually came to Birmingham. And, I think looking at it on the news, or hearing people talk about it in school, so it' ; s ironic we were naïve to that. You want me to fast-forward to Birming--that Sunday yet?, because basically I didn' ; t know anything about all that until after all this happened. ANDERSON: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, sure, you need, all you can do is tell your own story -- CROSS: OK ANDERSON: That' ; s what we want to know -- CROSS: OK ANDERSON: I just wondered what your first -- CROSS: OK ANDERSON: memory was of hearing about the movement. CROSS: All I remember is that, on that Sunday, September the 15th, 1963, or prior to that Sunday, we had practice because we were going to sing in, I always sang in the choir or ushered for the Youth Day. But that particular Sunday was the first Sunday that my dad had instituted as Youth Sunday, so far as being on a program. But we always had youth ushers or we would sing in the choir, youth choir, and they had an orchestra. In fact, Mr. Jimmy Lowe, who was the orchestra -- I think his son, after he, Mr. Lowe passed, his son directed the orchestra. But that day it was exciting because we were going to be a part of the program, actually somebody was going to read the scripture or say a prayer or do an offertory prayer. And I' ; ll never forget my mother didn' ; t go to church that Sunday, she was at home, but all of my siblings and my dad, so we would get to church probably a little before 9:30 because my dad probably had to open up. And, I remember him saying he usually parks on the side of the church -- what' ; s that? is that the Sixteenth Street side? yes -- but that particular Sunday, he didn' ; t park there, I done forgot where he said he parked. But, I remember that lesson so vividly, we were talking about forgiving your enemies. And, Mrs. Ella Deman was my teacher. I was 13, and we had discussed if somebody does something to you, whether steal your lunch or hit you, we' ; re gonna use the type of agape love that you forgive somebody who does something to you. So I remember we shared about different things that happened to us, cause back then we didn' ; t say kids bullied like they do today, we just knew they fought or they were, treated you mean ; I don' ; t remember the term bully until today. So, after the lesson was discussed, there' ; s a bell that rings for reassembly, probably about ten o' ; clock. I do remember I used to play the piano at the church, but I don' ; t think I, for Sunday School, but I don' ; t think I started playing until I was like 15, because we stayed in Birmingham until 1968 -- six years. So, I do remember, I was getting ready to get up, and go to the bathroom, cause my friend Addie had come by the classroom. And my teacher stopped me and gave me a clerical assignment. And my assignment, I remember she told me to write down the names of those who would be moving up in Sunday School, like we move up in grade school, fall of the year, excuse me, we move up in Sunday School. So I gave Addie my wallet and said, ' ; I' ; ll see you in a little while.' ; I remember getting back to the writing, and it seems like it was just a short spans of time -- before I saw her -- and the most horrific noise I' ; ve ever heard in my life, and it seemed like the building was rocking off its foundation. And I remember something hit me in my head and I started screaming, and it just seemed like everything went dark and all you could hear was screams from the kids, because the basement area is where all the children' ; s classes were. And, I just remember people were screaming, it was like almost a stampede. And I was looking for my younger sister and I never did see her. And I remember one of my church members, Mr. Hill, he was trying to -- cause I guess he knew my dad was the pastor, and he was, had to see what was going on -- and I found the sister next to me and my brother, but we still couldn' ; t find my baby sister, she was four. So Mr. Hill took us out the front of the church, which is the Sixth Avenue side, and he was trying to keep us from going to the side of the building, because I didn' ; t realize that' ; s where all the policemen were, and that' ; s where all the devastation was. So I remembered, I said, ' ; We can' ; t find my sister.' ; He said, ' ; Well, we' ; re gonna take you home.' ; So it was Alma, and my brother Michael, and my mom was waiting at the door, because back then they didn' ; t have call waiting. We lived approximately twenty -- well, in the Titusville area, which is Goldwire, where Elmwood Cemetery is, you think that' ; s about 25 miles? From the church? ANDERSON: You mean blocks? CROSS: 25 miles from the church or maybe 10 or 15 miles? ANDERSON: Oh, no, no, no. It' ; s not anywhere near that far. CROSS: OK. Well, my mother heard the noise in our neighborhood, and she said immediately -- ANDERSON: Oh, I' ; m sure she did. CROSS: Because she knew. And she said, ' ; Where' ; s Lynn?' ; and we can' ; t find Lynn. And later we found out, some hours later, that she had gone to the hospital with the other 20-something injuries. And when my dad came home, some hours later, but all we knew is the phone kept ringing and ringing, and we didn' ; t have call waiting then, and it was news reporters calling and, we, my mom put me on the phone, and I talked to one reporter and I just told them what I remember experiencing. And then her brother, her twin brother, made an emergency call, because my mom' ; s family and my dad' ; s family, they saw the interruption, and they were trying to hope my grandmother didn' ; t hear it so she' ; d have a heart attack. All they heard was says, ' ; The program has been interrupted because the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church was bombed.' ; And I don' ; t think they heard about the deaths immediately, but when they did hear about four girls were killed, my uncle -- my brother, we kinda laughed about it later -- he said, he probably said some curse words to the operator, he said, ' ; My sister and her family are in trouble, a church has been bombed, and I want to be sure everybody' ; s OK.' ; So, they put an emergency call through -- Laura, can I get a tissue? OK. ANDERSON: Of course. CROSS: I think I have a, something in here. ANDERSON: I can go get some if you don' ; t. CROSS: Let' ; s see. ANDERSON: There should be a box in here. CROSS: I got it. Thank you. OK. So, uh, they inter, they interrupted the broadcast, and the operator got him through, and he heard -- we couldn' ; t tell him about my sister, because we didn' ; t know -- we just said, mama said Alma' ; s here, Barbara' ; s here, Michael, we don' ; t know where Lynn is. And then when my dad came home, he had her, uh, but like I said this is hours later. But how I found out my friends had died, Laura, he had the program, the original program, and on the back -- let' ; s say maybe this was six o' ; clock when he got home, I don' ; t know, five o' ; clock, time was like, didn' ; t mean anything to me back then -- it had deaths. It had my friend Addie' ; s name on there, 14, and the funeral home she was at. It had Cynthia' ; s name on there, Carole, and Denise. And I was overwhelmed, so, the phone kept ringing and it looked like it never stopped ringing, so we stayed -- so when my sister, younger sister, came home we were so glad to see her. And my mother found out later that when the doctors saw all these people coming in with blood and the sheets pulled, with the sheets covered, over the gurneys, like where are all these people coming from?, and they said the doctor broke down and cried ' ; cause my sister, he asked her how old she was and she just did that [shows four fingers], and blood was streaming on her clothes [points down face]. But thank God she wasn' ; t severely injured. So we were happy to see her, but when I saw the word deaths, I lost it. And I had probably forgotten I had given Addie my purse, and, uh, that' ; s the first time I had ever lost a friend. And, uh, we spent the night over a neighbor' ; s house. And I do remember going to school the next day, and the elementary teacher, they knew my father, and, uh, they said, ' ; Are you going to be OK?' ; and, I think we were glad to go to school to get away from all of the, uh, chaos. And, uh, I' ; ll never forget, though, the next day, it' ; s probably when I got out of school, I' ; ll never forget this as long as I live, the doorbell rang, and I answered the door, and it was Dr. King, Martin Luther King, his brother A.D. Williams King, and, uh, Dick Gregory, and was one other minister, let' ; s see, Ralph Abernathy. And I' ; ll never forget, because they had those doors that open like this [swinging gate motion towards herself] back in the day, and I remember I shook his hand. And people always say, ' ; Did you say anything to him?' ; and I said well, I knew it was too sad to say anything to him, I knew he came for business to see my dad and then I realized they were going to go pay tribute, visit the families of the girls. I do remember my dad visiting -- I think it was that, before they got there, or either another day -- Mrs. McNair. And I' ; ll never forget this as long as I live, because that was her only child, and she was at her mother' ; s home, and she was sitting like she was in a state of shock -- and she was at Ms. Pippen' ; s, her mother' ; s home -- and they were trying to get her to eat, and I remember hugging her, I didn' ; t know what to say, and I know my dad was paying his, visiting the families, I just remember going over to the McNair' ; s, uh, her mother' ; s house, and it was like she was in a daze, uh. I remember they had two separate funerals, I went to Carole' ; s that Tuesday, seemed like it was so soon, and then the next one, that Wednesday, the three. I remember, I think my dad took me, but I was in a room like, not on the main floor, but it was just throngs of people. And I just remember looking like I was in a daze, with all these people, and I couldn' ; t be near my friend' ; s casket. I learned later that Denise had a viewing, but no one else had a viewing, and, uh, I found that out through the Spike Lee documentary. But it was like, I remember Ms. McNair fainting at the cemetery. Now that part I don' ; t remember how I, would, ' ; cause I couldn' ; t go to -- there were two different cemeteries, so I couldn' ; t remember -- but I remember going to Denise' ; s burial, and I don' ; t know how my dad did that -- you know how some things are vague in your mind? -- that part, but I know that Carole, Denise -- I mean Cynthia, Denise, and Addie -- had the same, um, funeral. And -- that was the saddest day of my life. The bombing, saying goodbye -- not really saying goodbye to my friends, it' ; s just -- I can almost see why Ms. Robinson didn' ; t want to have a mass funeral, because it was just like, it was just so many people, but I guess people wanted to say goodbye to four beautiful girls. Did life turn back to normal? Not for me, because the sound of that day still reverberated in my mind for about 10 years. And when I went off to college I said I' ; m not going to think about it, I' ; m going to forget it, I' ; m going to put it behind me. About two or three days, a week after the bombing, there was a loud noise at our home. My heart start beating fast and I remember shooting out the house like a rocket, only to discover that nobody in my house followed me outside. Then I found out later my sister had fallen out of bed. So that' ; s how nervous I was, my heart was pounding. Also, I had a neighbor across the street that worked in a nightclub, and he had a walkie-talkie -- I can' ; t remember was that before the church bombing or after the bombing -- and, he said he heard, say, ' ; Get that nigger Cross next.' ; So I think it was before the bombing, because Birmingham was really -- that was after, it might have been before Dr. King' ; s ' ; I Have a Dream' ; speech -- and anybody that was associated with Dr. King, like A.D. Williams King, his brother' ; s home, was bombed, the A.G. Gaston hotel was bombed, and then, I noticed, I' ; m noticing, a little before the bombing, they had Dynamite Hill, where they found dynamite on the streets. So, I lived in fear in Birmingham, because of, not that my dad told me, but we learned from the neighbors they were out front of the house with rifles. And, so, my mom always said they think the reason they didn' ; t bomb out home is because we lived on a dead-end street, and it would have been hard for them to throw the dynamite or plant the dynamite with all our neighbors in there. We did realize we had an informant, black guy who was an informant in our neighborhood, who lived across the street, and they were saying that he informed a lot of the people about the activities of my dad, and Dr. King with the church. And, uh, he was a alcoholic -- this is adult, hearing adults say so things, so my father would never tell me that -- but I believed it because when you start reading articles, there were people who informed and got paid to infiltrate where Dr. King would be. And, I always believed because my father, later understood, because my father allowed Dr. King to use the church, or anybody associated with Dr. King, later learned that' ; s why we would be in harm' ; s way. I' ; ll never forget, though, some years later I heard my dad do an interview in our church in Birmingham, in Atlanta, ' ; cause he had had a stroke, and that' ; s when they had reopened the investigation, of 2001 and 2002, for -- I forgot the guy' ; s name, but in -- Bobby Frank Cherry in 2002, I testified in that trial -- and, in 2001, I don' ; t know why I can' ; t ever call that man' ; s name, but -- Thomas Blanton. ANDERSON: It was Blanton, OK, yeah. I' ; m sorry, I -- CROSS: OK, well, he blamed himself for the bombing, and he was giving them all the information about, ' ; cause he had testified about from the grand jury, and one of my neighbors brought my dad over to Birmingham for that. So, I told him after the interview, ' ; Dad, I love you, and you were courageous to let Dr. King use the church, because if not your church, any church would have been bombed. Dr. King tried to make a difference, and you were courageous.' ; So, Birmingham, I know was supposed to have been integrated the spring of ' ; 64, the downtown district -- I know we could try on clothes and go there, but it' ; s just that at the time that the church was bombed, after Dr. King' ; s speech, I would have never thought that would happen. And, I guess I thought everything was kinda settled in Birmingham, but I think the Ku Klux Klan is, what I read, they were angry because the schools were going to be integrated. So, I don' ; t know why they chose to bomb the church -- I believe it was because Dr. King, and my dad allowed him to use the church. When you look at, back at the trials, they said they didn' ; t know anybody was going to be in there, but they, they have the sign out there and knew that. So, I did go to that trial, 14 years later, living in Atlanta, I was upset that it took so long. I don' ; t hate the bombers, because I believe if you' ; re taught racism, and, uh, superior race, you' ; re taught hatred -- I wasn' ; t taught hatred, I didn' ; t grow up in that type of environment -- I really feel sorry for them, because they didn' ; t get a chance to know Cynthia Wesley, to know Addie, to know Carole, or their family. They weren' ; t out in the streets throwing rocks or cursing nobody out. They were in a place of safety. Uh, one of my favorite sayings which is that on that plaque in the church, it say -- and that was put there before they even know who did that bombing -- it says, ' ; May men learn to replace bitterness and hatred with love and understanding.' ; So my message is, what we learned that Sunday about a love that forgives. I wasn' ; t taught to hate. I did want to trip up, uh, Robert Chambliss in the courtroom, when I saw him in the hallway, because he seemed like he was so happy. I wish I could have asked him -- I don' ; t think back them I would have been that bold to ask him -- ' ; cause he always said he didn' ; t do it -- ' ; Why would you plant dynamite on a church, knowing that kids would be there?' ; I can' ; t, I wish I knew. Uh, when I went to the 2001 trial, came back here for that, Thomas Blanton, what infuriated me was they could walk through the courts, no shackles -- I think when they convicted him, he had to walk out with, with the handcuffs. And then with Bobby Frank Cherry, he looked like a little old deacon man who lived his life, and I testified in that one, ' ; cause a lot of the older people were gone. So, uh, the best thing that I think that came out of the bombing, if I had to look for a glimmer of light and a rainbow that is in that window over there, it' ; s that in 1964, I like to think that Lyndon Baines Johnson signed the Civil Rights Bill that we could go to public accommodations like the hotels, and anywhere we wanted to go if we had money to spend -- it was a start. And I like to think, not only those other two little boys that got killed that Sunday, or Cynthia, Denise, Addie, or Carole, and that document they show over there, I think they' ; re angels of change. So, that gives me hope that -- one day, people can sit down and have differences, whether you' ; re a black, white, Hispanic, non-denomination, gay, lesbian, whatever, that we can agree to disagree, that we might not like you, but when you act on your hate, to take out a life, I hope that they remember what happened over there, and see those beautiful pictures on the inside, that they can rethink. And, so, sometimes we can' ; t explain what make people do things, and they said, people who, ' ; hurt people hurt people,' ; so, I don' ; t know whether they were hurt, I wish I could get into their minds, I don' ; t know, but I have no hate for them. But I miss my friends, but I like to think that, angels of change. If I have to get something to smile about, that they' ; re no longer here to suffer the injustices of this world, but they were a cat, their death was a catalyst to make a change in the Civil Rights Movement. That' ; s what I like to see it as. Uh, when we left here in ' ; 68, my dad was called into, uh, to Alabama State University, where he worked in, I think the Baptist Student Union and taught sociology. And then, when he went to Atlanta, in ' ; 72, he, it was interesting, he -- it was interesting -- he was called to be -- an associate minister of a church, and they had a Canadian pastor. It was a transitional area, where the whites had moved out, but this particular pastor and the church, those who remained in the church, that we' ; re not going to leave this community. Someone asked my dad once, or asked me, ' ; Your dad left the movement.' ; And I said this at his homecoming, going service, ' ; He opened up the doors, he was not marching the streets, but God called him into a reconciliation-type ministry.' ; And I think what happened in that church, he was trained to work with pastors of all colors, all denominations. And he got this award in Atlanta called the Fred Patterson Award, because of his activism in the community among blacks and whites. And, what better person that that would happen to, a person who, a church was bombed, he had no animosity, but to bring churches together. And I said that at his homegoing, and I told them about this hymn that described my dad' ; s life, ' ; In Christ there is no east or west, in him no south or north, but one great fellowship of love throughout this whole wide world ; join brothers, join hands dear brothers of the faith, whatever your race may be, who serves the somethings da da da,' ; but it was, it describes my father. And so, when they told me that, I' ; m like, ' ; He didn' ; t leave the movement,' ; and then I thought about, well, all of us are called to different drummers, his was working with churches of interfaith of different colors, to, to whatever our differences. And I think that was more of a healing ministers. I think there are some people who can march the streets, there' ; s some people in the suites making a difference, but his was in the churches with the different denominations. And I thank God that I got a chance to see my dad do that. And, uh, there were articles written about him, he got calls, I mean calls to preach at different churches, of different races, because of what he went through over there. Now when I went to college, in ' ; 68, I went to Tuskegee, I did not talk about the bombing, it was like, ' ; Yeah, I' ; m getting away from Alabama, I don' ; t want to remember that.' ; And it was only if people knew who my dad was they wanted to talk about it. And I started having headaches in Tuskegee, and I had squashed the memory, and then only to find out I was having anxiety attacks, because I had never really gotten over the bombing ; I was still hearing noises. And my hands were shaking ; when people asked me why I trembled, I just said, ' ; I' ; m nervous.' ; So I had squashed all the memories, and it was like, ' ; I' ; m free, I' ; m in college, I can do this, do this, do this, forget Bombingham.' ; And I' ; ll never forget, when somebody had me do a presentation at our church academy, I think it was in the ' ; 90s, and -- I thought I was ready to talk about it, I broke down like it was yesterday. Because I had forgotten it and didn' ; t want to talk about it. So now, I still cry, and it' ; s 50 years, almost. I don' ; t know why I still cry. But I guess that -- day was so painful. And, I used to apologize for my tears, and somebody said, ' ; No, you, they need to still see it hurts.' ; And I look at the church -- I don' ; t know, but -- I must remember, I said, like the Jews keep the Holocaust alive, I have keep the memories of my girls, my friends alive, because they' ; re no longer here. And when I' ; m working with the SCLC women, when we do voter registration, and we did this on Auburn Avenue -- it' ; s a large street festival in Atlanta -- we register people to vote. We can' ; t tell them who to vote for, because that' ; s a nonprofit organization. And one lady told me she doesn' ; t vote -- and I, and she' ; s a black lady -- and I said, ' ; Can I ask you,' ; she said ' ; I don' ; t vote,' ; I said, ' ; Can I give you some reasons why you should vote?' ; And she said she' ; d listen to me, she looked like she might have been 50 years old or, 40-ish, it' ; s hard to tell, I said, ' ; Vote for Dr. King, his voice is silenced. Medgar Evers.' ; That' ; s, I called the roll, I said, ' ; I' ; m a survivor of a terroristic attack.' ; I said, ' ; I didn' ; t say that when I was growing up, but as somebody interviewed me in Atlanta said I witnessed a terror.' ; I didn' ; t think of it like that. I said, ' ; I lost four beautiful friends. They were in a place of safety. Vote for Addie Mae Collins, who was 14. Vote for Cynthia Wesley, 14, her voice was silenced. Vote for Denise McNair, an only child, who was 11. And Carole Robinson, 14, or Addie Mae Collins.' ; And she said, she listened, she said, ' ; I' ; ll think about it.' ; But I try to remind people why they should vote, because in 1965 they signed the Voting Rights Bill. Your voice is your vote. There were people whose lives were taken because they didn' ; t want them to have the rights of freedom to vote, or go into certain places, because of hatred. You have that voice. And, so, I' ; m constantly, uh, getting a chance to speak to groups about my experience. When I took care of my dad, in when he, when my mom died suddenly in 2003, because we knew -- Can I just go get another tissue? OK, I don' ; t know that I have any more in there. ANDERSON: We can stop if you need to. CROSS: OK, I just need to get another tissue. OK, thank you. ANDERSON: No, we don' ; t have to stop. And if you need me to go get you some, I will, ' ; cause like I said. I should have brought a whole box for both of us. CROSS: Guess you didn' ; t know you would have a crybaby here. ANDERSON: No. CROSS: OK, OK. Thank you. ANDERSON: You' ; re welcome. CROSS: Uh, when I was taking care of my dad in 2000 and, he died 2007, there was a call in 2006 from Clemson University. And this lady, black lady, she was, she left a message, she wanted to speak to my dad, and I called her back and she wanted him to speak, and I said, ' ; I' ; m his daughter Barbara, my dad' ; s caregiver, uh, he had a stroke and, I uh, when my mom died I moved in to be his caregiver, 2004.' ; And she said, ' ; Well--' ; I said, ' ; But I do speaking engagements.' ; So she said, ' ; Can you send me your bio.' ; I said, ' ; Sure, I was a survivor, I was in the church that day.' ; So she asked me how much to charge. I told her. She said, ' ; We can do way better than that.' ; But she gave me a nice amount. They came picked me up, but the, the Alphas put on a -- since Dr. King was an Alpha, in the Alpha fraternity, they had a, and this was the 25th anniversary, of the, the holiday celebration. And the theme was, uh, ' ; Live the Dream, Be the Dream, 25 Years of Excellence.' ; And I went through the ABCs of the movement, and -- talked about the experience in Birmingham, about the life of Dr. King, about how met him, and his drum major instinct. But I keep the memory of my friends alive, and I' ; m sure I cried then, too. When Spike Lee did the documentary, now that was really an honor. We got a call in Atlanta in the late 1990s, and -- I wanted to meet Spike Lee, so I said, ' ; Daddy,' ; -- cause I think we had taken my father' ; s car keys from him -- ' ; I' ; ll drive you down to the King Center.' ; So, I shared with him what I shared with you, and he said, ' ; Do you want to be in the documentary with your dad?' ; And I said, ' ; I would feel honored to.' ; So, we had lunch with him. He had his film crew, ' ; cause I thought he was just going to be interviewing, I didn' ; t know he was going to be rolling tape. And, you know, some parts they cut out, and -- But when he put the piece together, and they came, we came, I came to Atlanta for the premiere, was at, I think was at one of the -- movie theaters downtown, they had a reception at the High Museum. But when I saw the documentary in its entirety, oh, I cried, because I didn' ; t know I was going to see the morgue scenes, and that -- And I looked at it again last night, it was, I try to make myself sometime look at it to go back over in my mind, be, re, be reminded, of those pictures that I never forget. But I' ; m glad he showed the morgue scenes, because he had to show -- what four little girls look like in life prior to September the 15th, and then the morgue scene to show the severity of what hatred looks like. So I' ; m glad he did that. It was hard to look at, but he had to show the reality of it. And, just like when men go to war sometimes -- I think Bush didn' ; t want to show the caskets coming back -- but we have to be reminded-- ANDERSON: It' ; s the same thing. CROSS: And it happened. ANDERSON: And Ms. Till, showing-- CROSS: Right, right, and I met Ms. Till, now I' ; m reminded that you should say that, when I came over on one of the tours, she was with John Lewis' ; group, and I come over here every year with Ms. Lowery' ; s group. And, she was in a wheelchair, somebody, I didn' ; t know it was her, somebody said, ' ; That' ; s Emmitt Till' ; s mother,' ; and I went up to her, cause she was at the corner where that, the uh, that -- signage is, with the church, and somebody was taking her picture, and I said, ' ; Ms. Till, I' ; m Barbara Cross, I am so honored to meet you, this was the church my father pastored at the time of the bombing, I' ; m Reverend John Cross' ; s daughter Barbara.' ; And she, her daughter took a picture -- I wish I had that picture -- and I said, ' ; Thank you for what you did by letting the world see what hatred did to your son. You were courageous, and it' ; s still shown out there.' ; I said, ' ; Cause sometimes we try to cover up hatred, but when you see it in the raw, and what it looks like, hopefully someone would get the message, I don' ; t want this to happen to my child, I don' ; t want this to happen to my sister and brother.' ; So I really did, and that does remind you of what Spike Lee did there. He had to, to show with his camera what -- four beautiful girls look like when they came out the church. So I' ; ve been blessed to really share messages as a substitute teacher for Dekalb County, cause I retired BellSouth to take care of my dad, I' ; m so glad I did that, to spend -- I was a mama' ; s girl, so my dad, I got a chance to get closer to him -- and, his, to take care of him, because I don' ; t know what it was like for my dad -- to go through that rubble. And, in many interviews, he says he has nightmares. I cry, because I remember him saying in an interview or somewhere else that he started going through that rubble -- they said, ' ; Oh, Reverend Cross, don' ; t go through there.' ; -- but they say a lot of times when dynamite goes off, they set one charge for everybody to come out, and then they set another charge, that when you' ; re out there, you think it' ; s safe, and it goes off again. He said, ' ; Oh, no.' ; He said, ' ; My children are in here, all these kids are in here, I gotta be sure everybody' ; s OK.' ; And he heard somebody saying ' ; Addie. Addie with Sarah.' ; And I was the only survivor over there. And, uh, he said when he got a few feet under, it' ; s like they were all blown on top of each other. And he never did describe that too us, it' ; s just what I heard, I wouldn' ; t dare ask him, but I heard him tell somebody interview he still has nightmares. And, I told you I heard him say he blamed himself, and I said, ' ; Oh, no, daddy,' ; I kissed him, I said, ' ; You were courageous.' ; So, Birmingham, even though I know they' ; re trying to change the image with the Birmingham Pledge, cause I came back one year to accept an award for my dad from the Birmingham Pledge -- Jim Roch, does he still have that? -- OK. That' ; s the only thing I can see, maybe because I don' ; t live here, the positive spin they' ; re trying to put, no place for hatred. And I think, because of what happened over there, they' ; re trying to change that image. But someone once said, I don' ; t know whether it was Dr. King, that you could pass laws, but you can' ; t legislate people' ; s hearts. So, hopefully, I know people, a lot of people are always coming over to the church, I just hope that people will remember that -- even that day that church was became their tomb -- that, I like to think it was a catalyst for change, for people' ; s hearts becoming changed, and realize that -- it' ; s something about a death of a child, of innocence, that will change a person' ; s heart before an older black man or older black woman. Because people can relate to children, a innocence, I don' ; t think it would have been a change if it had been men or women. I don' ; t think so. I think hearts were changed because they were little babies. That life hadn' ; t begun. ANDERSON: Can you tell me, if you remember, or if you remember your father talking about, the weeks and months after this happened. You mentioned that the phone just was ringing off the hook at the home. What was it like at the church? CROSS: What happened, they couldn' ; t meet anymore at the church, because they had a architect to come in, and I remember we would meet at Dr. -- A.G. Gaston' ; s, he had several funeral homes, but we used his business college auditorium at no charge, I found that out later. And, my dad had, they said, uh, they had several -- donations from all around the world. And that window, I remember -- that' ; s, I think that' ; s the summer we visited my grandmother, my maternal grandmother in rural Virginia -- that Mr. Petts or Pitts, I forgot which last name is that designed the window -- he came and talked with my dad, and that' ; s how he got ideas to do the window. And it' ; s supposed to be representing, I remember my dad telling me the plan -- and I remember the dedication of that window, it was on my birthday, June 6, 1965, now we still have that program -- but it' ; s supposed to represent a black man, suffering on a cross like Jesus, with one hand like this saying ' ; Stop the violence,' ; and this other hand reaching out for forgiveness and love. And then there' ; s some little, little dots, like little lines, look like little minus signs going all the way across the middle, and that' ; s supposed to be like, the black man being crucified with the dots at his side like the black man in the South. And, at the bottom, and it' ; s a beautiful rainbow over top of the black man' ; s head, and it' ; s supposed to be like, a better day is going to come. A sunshine will come from all of this pain. And at the bottom of the window is a plaque or the little -- part of the ceiling -- I don' ; t know what you call it, a little shelf-like thing of the window, or the bottom -- but, not on the window but away from the window, that has in memory of, and the girls' ; names. And, if the sun is hitting that window, I don' ; t know whether you' ; ve seen it on the inside, it' ; s just beautiful, it' ; s just like wow, but if it' ; s dark at night you can' ; t see the beauty of that window. And I think it was shipped here in panels. But he talked with my dad for the, that summer. So it was dedicated ' ; 65, so they must have shipped it the early part of ' ; 65, but I know they dedicated it in ' ; 65, June the 6th, because I have that program. But, uh, we met -- at L.R. Hall Auditorium, that was generously donated. But my parents, I' ; ll never forget, when my father would go on speaking -- I learned this through articles I' ; ve seen sometime later, because a lot of time he didn' ; t tell us, he told my mom, but he didn' ; t tell us -- he would go and receive donations on behalf of the church and speak. Ah, but one that was really -- and I remember my mom talking about this one -- when Mrs. McNair went, my dad, and my mom -- I can' ; t remember whether Mr. McNair went -- and, it has them on a plane, they' ; re, I don' ; t know whether they' ; re leaving California, but my mother said, the, the pla, picture on the plaque that she has, that there was a artist that gave her a oil painting -- and I' ; m sure that' ; s in the studio, his, their studio, used to be in the house, probably in his studio -- and they said wasn' ; t a dry eye -- in the place -- for them. And that was the, I' ; m almost thinking that was the same year, of the bombing or ' ; 64, cause she didn' ; t have her other two kids until two years after the bombing. She has Kimberly and Lisa, and I always said they' ; re her miracle babies. But, my mother said wasn' ; t a dry eye in the place. And, she, Denise was a beautiful girl, inside and out. And she was happy-go-lucky, I remember that. And, uh, she said wasn' ; t a dry eye, but I remember that my parents, they got, they still got calls. Uh, there was, my dad did say this, and it angered me and I know it angered him, they said when they started investigating the bombing, they would ask my dad -- and they know he didn' ; t bomb the church -- ' ; Do you have any friends or enemies when you left Virginia that would have bombed your church?' ; I was like, get out, and I was angry and I know my dad was angry, but they know that, but that, angered me. He said he got those kind of questions, they investigated him. Get real. Uh, -- I do remember, uh, like I said, the trials, I was given a pin, and I have it, by the FBI. Let me show it to you, I think I put it in here. I came to a symposium over here, must have been in 2004 at Birmingham-Southern College, look what it says, ' ; For my role testifying in the trials, justice for the little girls,' ; and it has the emblem, and the insignia, the FBI insignia, I have four of them. At first I said, ' ; Why did they give me four?' ; I said, ' ; Well, maybe because it was four little girls that were killed,' ; but I try not to put it on because I don' ; t want to lose it. And I' ; ll always keep this. On this side, it says ' ; 0-1-5,' ; they only had about 200 of them made, and I' ; ll cherish that for the rest of my life. In fact, I want to be buried with that on me. Justice for the little girls. And that was given to me by one of the FBI directors at the symposium, and that particular -- I' ; ll never forget, John Lewis spoke, and he had just came out with his book, Walking with the Wind -- and, the, -- Mr. McNair was on the program -- I can' ; t remember if Mrs. McNair was there -- they had, from the four different trials. They had from the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church bombing, another guy who was firebombed, his home was firebombed for the NAACP -- his name is on that memorial marker, I can' ; t forget, I forgot, I can' ; t remember his name. Also, Myrlie Evers was there, these were old trials, and it was called, what was the name of the symposium?, Civil Rights: Justice Remembered, or, it was something about the old trials, I can' ; t remember the exact name -- ANDERSON: Mmm hmm CROSS: But it was a beautiful symposium talking about hate crimes, and how now a lot of the older hate crimes were becoming solved. So I remember that. And I think I did tell you that I was at the dedication of the memorial marker in 1989. And there was the whole street that was closed off facing the Southern Poverty Law Center -- Rosa Parks was there, each family name that' ; s on that memorial marker, most of them lost their life to the hand, by the hand of the Ku Klux Klan, except for Rosa Parks' ; s name was on there because of the difference she made because of the Montgomery bus boycott. So they had a dinner, and they had a -- I can' ; t remember where that was in Montgomery -- but that day, that Sunday, that whole street was closed off, and each family name that was on there, they paid our way -- well, they paid for the hotel, and, it was just awesome. But it was so many names on there that I had never heard of before, but we had, we represented the family of Addie Mae Collins. I remembered, uh, Ms. McNair being there, uh, Shirley Wesley, who was adopted by the Wesleys after Cynthia died -- and she cries in that documentary, do you remember seeing her cry? -- OK, I' ; m surprised I didn' ; t cry on there, I probably was just looking all everywhere, I can' ; t believe I didn' ; t cry, unless he didn' ; t get me crying, because a lot of that you' ; d say and they' ; d cut parts of it out. But when Spike Lee said this, and this kind of sums it up, it' ; s something about that raw emotion that overcomes those who talk about that, that you never get over it. ANDERSON: How could it not? CROSS: My sisters, they won' ; t talk about it. My brother either. ANDERSON: Well, I wanted to ask about them. CROSS: They don' ; t talk about it. Even the one that got cut in the head, they don' ; t want to remember. The one next to me, when I was on Oprah show, she -- ANDERSON: You need some more? You need this bag? CROSS: Uh, huh. I don' ; t think I have any more in there, Laura. I' ; m sorry. ANDERSON: No, don' ; t apologize. OK. CROSS: Was talking about my sisters ANDERSON: You were talking about, yeah, your sisters and your brother-- CROSS: Uh, Michael, all I remember, and I don' ; t know whether this is the type of effect he has, he used to always say when he got to be a teenager, that he never wanted to work for a white person. That' ; s what he said. My younger sister, she doesn' ; t talk about it. She did an article in one of the church papers about -- because most people don' ; t hear about her, and I just, she doesn' ; t probably remember at four, I don' ; t know. The sister next to me, she became militant, but she said it wasn' ; t the church bombing that made her militant. When we moved to Montgomery -- or was it here? -- whatever school she integrated, it might have been in Birmingham -- it was Ramsey High, so it was here, ' ; cause I changed to go to Ramsey my last year at Ullman, and I went my senior year at Ramsey -- she said they had a sign that said ' ; Nigger Crossing,' ; and the teachers didn' ; t do anything, and let them have the sign. And so, at cafeteria time, uh, they would space out all over -- no, they had to sit together -- so, one time, they were angry about the ' ; nigger crossing' ; sign -- oh, they would, used to put thumbtacks in the students' ; seats, so they, they were bad about that. So they said one day, we' ; ll fix ' ; em, one black sat at every table, and the teachers try to make them move, they said, ' ; We' ; re not stopping them from sitting with us,' ; and she said that was what outraged her. Because the staff, and the administrators were behind the white kids, and they were like, they were the enemies. So they, so when she, they got settled -- when I went over there it was OK -- but that' ; s what she experienced, and that' ; s what she said. It wasn' ; t just the church bombing, but about the sign that said ' ; nigger crossing,' ; and they didn' ; t stop the kids, so, that' ; s where she was irate and that made her bitter. ANDERSON: So she was one of the students who integrated Ramsey. CROSS: She was one of the ones. Very smart. ANDERSON: Man. CROSS: She was two years younger than me, cause I went over there in ' ; 67 to ' ; 68, and I graduated from Ramsey. I was in the choral, and I was in the drama. And I' ; ll never forget my English teacher, she gave, I got an A+, she was real sweet, but I had no problems with them, I, I, I loved it, but I guess she was, had to go through the integration process. And was treated like that, so that' ; s what she, uh, but they, they toughed it out. ANDERSON: Now how did your family come to decide to be part of that as well? CROSS: My family? ANDERSON: Yeah, I mean-- CROSS: I think probably because it was a good opportunity for my sister to go there, so I' ; m sure my father encouraged her to do that. Alma was very smart, she was like, very studious, like I like to look at TV all the night, she would be reading Gone with the Wind, she was, and she' ; s still smart to this day. I was, I always said I graduated ' ; Thank You Laude,' ; hee hee hee, and I was interested in creative writing, I wanted to be a journalist, but my senior year of college, I mean my freshman year of college, I didn' ; t want to go to University of Alabama and experience the hatred. So, my neighbor went to Tuskegee, so I visited her at Tuskegee, fell in love with the campus, so I was majored, English major, liberal arts, and took journalism courses. So, I always knew I wanted to be a writer, a journalist -- I asked enough questions to be -- but, I just didn' ; t pursue it. I, my first job when I graduated was with the telephone company, so I said I' ; m in communications, but a different type of way. So, but I did go take a course a Georgia State for journalism. But, yeah, my sister experienced that. But, like I said, my brother doesn' ; t talk about it, he just -- he, they say he' ; s bipolar or schizophrenic, and we didn' ; t know whether the bombing had anything to do with why he said he didn' ; t want to work for any white person. He' ; s now living in New York, he' ; s bipolar, manic depressive -- but they say it' ; s more of a chemical imbalance, nothing to do with, that we know of from the church bombing. But I' ; m sure that has some influence, and being five years old, to not understand and be in a place -- ' ; cause I know it affects me with crying -- but I know my other siblings, they don' ; t talk about it, so I don' ; t know whether it' ; s painful, or -- But I will tell people in a minute, after the fact of college, because when I went to college, I shut down, I didn' ; t want to talk about it. But after people started asking me to do things in the ' ; 90s, they knew my dad, if he couldn' ; t speak anymore, they wanted me to, so I had to re-find my voice and share the story. So I keep it alive and keep my dad' ; s memory alive, because I think it' ; s important. ANDERSON: You know, today it' ; s difficult to even imagine that you all went to school the next day. CROSS: Mmm hmm. But I think, I guess, it' ; s, I guess our parents wanted us to have a sense of normalcy, because at home, everything was bombarded by the telephone, making arrangements for funerals, and like I said, I answered the door that Monday, but I didn' ; t go to school the Tuesday and Wednesday -- I went to the service -- I' ; m sure my other sisters and brothers, they went to school. ANDERSON: Mmm. CROSS: Uh, I' ; m glad I did go to the service, it was a little closure. I just didn' ; t say goodbye to them, because I didn' ; t view them. But after seeing the documentary, I knew why I couldn' ; t view Addie or the other three, and I didn' ; t know about the viewing of Denise. I probably wouldn' ; t have wanted to have gone to the viewing. Uh, we talked about the window and the three trials, and I was so glad to get guilty verdicts for those three men, I just hate that the timeframe took so long. But justice was finally done. And somebody once said that justice delayed is not justice denied, I think Rob, the guy, that U.S. Attorney General-- ANDERSON: No, Jones CROSS: Doug Jones, yeah. Yes, he came to my father' ; s homegoing service. ANDERSON: MmmCROSS: Him and Sidney Sheldon. Sidney was the one -- I didn' ; t know that they had people to, I guess to see if my dad could stand trial, I forgot what they called them -- but they can test the witness and be sure that they could be coherent. And it' ; s ironic, because my father had had another stroke -- my parents, my mother and my siblings did not want me to take my dad to the second trial, the third one. I said, ' ; No, mom, I will be with him, and he can do this.' ; That morning, my dad, I knocked on his door, he did not answer. He was roaming the hall, he hadn' ; t had his medication, I said, ' ; Oh my God.' ; So, I got room service to bring him breakfast up, got him dressed, got his medications, and one of the persons picked us up at the hotel and took us to the trial. Only thing I couldn' ; t be out there because I was going to testify and my dad was in the room. But we came immediately after he testified and my testimony, we -- I' ; m trying to think, did somebody take us up there? -- yeah, we, we came back to Atlanta. But I was worried, I said, ' ; Oh my God, I hope my dad doesn' ; t have another stroke up here.' ; So, they were kind, I think, with the questions, but he had to probably look at pictures. And, so I was so happy, I was, so we didn' ; t know about the verdict of that one, ' ; til, I think it was a couple of days, but we were back in Atlanta. With the Thomas Blanton, I think that verdict came -- oh, with Chambliss -- that verdict came, I don' ; t know whether that was the next day, but I think we stayed in Birmingham, I can' ; t remember. But I was glad of all three of the verdicts. My father did receive a call that somebody wanted to do a deathbed confession, but he said he didn' ; t have to meet him at a church, that he could just go in the church and kneel, but they said, the attorneys said that it was a lie. But I believe that when a person gets ready to leave the world and when anything they' ; ve done they ready to make a confession, I believe that. So, they always said that fourth person, if I' ; m not mistaken was Herman Cash. But it always amazed me that these people want to be like FBI informants to get off for what they did. So, it' ; s just, but I guess they give up one person to get the other person. So, I' ; m just glad that, it' ; s not going to bring the girls back, but at least they could get some type of pay for some part of their life for what they did. ANDERSON: You know, people come here from all over the world every day -- CROSS: Mmm. Wow. ANDERSON: and they' ; re on a pilgrimage. Um, and like I said, I know that your family had to live with what happened here every day, you live every day with what happened here. Um, and I had a question and it left me, but I wonder how you feel about the fact, if you were aware of it, that people do come here, seeking something, um, seeking to just stand in that church, and stand on what they will call sacred ground, and they' ; ll refer to the girls as martyrs-- CROSS: Mmm hmm ANDERSON: Um, how that makes you feel now? CROSS: I guess I feel honored that people want to still go there, to stand in that place, and maybe kinda when they see that ' ; Angels of Change,' ; kinda to reflect, that many decades ago, what it was like to see the German Shepard dogs, and the fire hose, and if they watch Eyes on the Prize -- cause somebody used to ask us, ' ; Did that really happen?' ; I say, ' ; Yes. Those, Bull Connor, that existed, in the Kelly Ingram Park.' ; And it' ; s just amazing, historically, with this Civil Rights Institute right in front of the church, and with those stat, statues in Kelly Ingram Park, they really get a sense of, what it was like, even when they go through those, those monuments, with jail cells, with kids actually filled up the jail, because parents were afraid to lose their job. Or they see that vicious, gaping mouth of that dog with those teeth, that people were actually, they sicced those dogs on kids and adults, if they could. I' ; m honored that they want to feel, just being there -- and just, taking it all in, especially to see the, the those signs out there, and I learned that when I Googled last year, about the church, that they had the side, a new monument on the side -- ' ; cause today was my first time seeing it, because we didn' ; t have time to see it when we came on a tour, ' ; cause our bus was in an accident. So, I had had them to open up the church, but couldn' ; t go really, I went through the front door and, and just gave them a hug. But, they said that that is one of the most questions that are asked is, ' ; Where was the dynamite planted?' ; ANDERSON: Mmm hmm CROSS: And today I saw like a rose, a flower on each name, and then a mon, uh, I guess a flower wreath that had turned over, it makes me feel good that people still come, and even when we come and see busloads there. And one time, I' ; ll never forget, cause I talk to people a lot, and when I' ; m talking to our group, there some other guys that were there, there were two black guys, handsome guys, and I said, uh, ' ; If you want to hear my history, I was here, that was my dad.' ; And he wrote me -- he worked for Glory Food Company, and he sent me a whole basket -- and he wrote a note, and it said, ' ; Thank you for sharing your history -- because I could feel, through your story, the impact of the bombing.' ; So I' ; m glad I did that. One time I was upset when I came over here, because John Lewis had a group and they had the Secret Service there, so, naturally, they were having to be sure that the church is protected. And he said, ' ; You can' ; t come in.' ; And I told him, ' ; This was my father' ; s church, this is like coming home for me, and I understand, I respect what you' ; re doing, but I have a group, too, and this is my' ; -- I don' ; t know whether they let me in or not, I can' ; t remember, but I did say as much. I said, ' ; I was here the day of the bombing, and John Cross, my father,' ; -- I understand he had to do what he did, but I had to let him know who I was -- ' ; I' ; m not trying to do any harm, but I understand your job, too.' ; That was the only time I got a little up, got ticked off, but I got over it. But I' ; m glad you shared that with me, because sometimes I don' ; t see who comes over there, but it' ; s so good to know that people care and they still visit that. And I respect the minister now because I guess it' ; s hard, ' ; cause you, you realize people want to make it a museum, it' ; s not a museum, it' ; s a active church. But people do remember, and I' ; m honored that people remember. I' ; m honored to do this interview, because a lot of times we get calls at my dad' ; s house, I have had the home phone disconnected and just use my cell, or people write me and they want me, and I don' ; t get a chance to write back to everybody. ANDERSON: Yeah, I was gonna ask about that -- CROSS: Uh huh ANDERSON: even now are you constantly approached? CROSS: I like speaking engagements, but one thing was the best thing I think I ever did. It was a little girl from Oregon, white, I didn' ; t know what color she was, but she left a message on my dad' ; s answering machine -- this happened to me about the year, probably a couple of years after he had died -- and she said, ' ; Hi, my name is' ; whatever her name was, it was the mother calling, ' ; my daughter wants to interview Reverend Cross for a project she' ; s doing for her school in Oregon.' ; So I called back, I said, ' ; Hi, this is Barbara Cross, I' ; m the daughter of Reverend John Cross, and my father is deceased.' ; And I said, ' ; She can interview me.' ; And she probably was not more than probably 10 or 11, so it' ; s interesting, when adults get interviews, they get it mixed up. So, she had me coming out the bathroom at the time of the bombing and I survived, which was OK. But it was interesting, the guy who was a writer for this newspaper in Oregon, he said, he sent me the copy of the article, it was, ' ; Reflections from a Violent Past.' ; And his name, he' ; s a writer for Oregon -- Bob Welch -- and he sent me a box of chocolates, and his book that is a combination of all, a lot of his articles in the paper. And he said, ' ; To Barbara, Thanks for taking the time to share your history and whelming us in the process.' ; And I was so honored that I called that little girl back. So, I' ; m glad I called her back. And now I started thinking about calling him and saying, ' ; Well, I want you to whelm, overwhelm me and help me get my book written,' ; but I haven' ; t. I might still do that, he has a writing place in, uh, Oregon, it' ; s overlooking a lake, I can' ; t, I think it' ; s outside of Portland. But, uh, but I thought that was so sweet, so it' ; s little things like that. And, a lot of time, people at my church, they know, the kids doing projects, they want to interview me, but what I tell them, I say, ' ; You gonna have to,' ; and a lot of them, they don' ; t do it, I say, ' ; you need to tell me what you' ; re writing, I want to see what you' ; re writing,' ; you know, a lot of time they won' ; t do it, but they' ; ll thank me. But I thought that was awesome. And the words may not have been exactly like that, but he said, ' ; Thanks for taking the time, to answer a little girl and whelming us in the process.' ; So, I' ; m gonna share my history, no matter how painful, because I tell even kids in school, when I' ; m not here, I want you to tell my story. And a lot of time, when they see me crying, they ask me some awesome questions, they said, ' ; Ms. Cross, why did you give Addie your wallet?' ; ANDERSON: Hmm hmmCROSS: I said, ' ; That' ; s a good question. This is a girl thing. Uh, if your teacher sends you to the cafeteria, I mean to the office, and your class is going to school, boys don' ; t do this, but girls say, " ; Here' ; s my wallet, here' ; s my book, save me a seat." ; .' ; And they say, ' ; Well Ms. Cross, did Addie have any parting words for you?' ; This really got me. I know I' ; m on camera, I' ; m gonna say it, ' ; cause I' ; m gonna be truthful, -- ANDERSON: We are running out of tape, so -- CROSS: OK, Sarah says I didn' ; t see Addie that day. When I testified, she always calls me on this, and this is what I say. I didn' ; t say it to her, because I don' ; t like to upset her: ' ; You cannot know every step your sister makes, because you were in the bathroom.' ; I did not give my wallet to Denise, I didn' ; t know, I mean, Denise was in my sister' ; s class. I was not that close to Carole Robinson or Cynthia Wesley. I gave it to Addie. And, so, they said that and I said, ' ; You know, she was telling me goodbye and I didn' ; t realize,' ; because her family say I didn' ; t see her. And I was like, ' ; Wow.' ; I got a chance to give her my wallet and didn' ; t realize I was saying goodbye to her. So kids ask a lot of profound questions that make me think. ANDERSON: I' ; m sure they do. CROSS: So. ANDERSON: Umm, we can get a new tape, or we can say -- CROSS: Whatever you want to -- ANDERSON: it is done. CROSS: Whatever you want-- ANDERSON: It is your decision. CROSS: Whatever you want me to answer, I will answer. If you think this is, did you, could you think of an area that you wanted to cover? This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=BCross2012.xml BCross2012.xml
Dublin Core
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Barbara Cross
Description
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Barbara Cross discusses surviving the Sixteenth Street Church Bombing in great detail. Her father, Rev. John Cross Jr., was the pastor at the time.
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20121015C
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Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham
Till, Emmett, 1941-1955
16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963
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2012-10-15
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video
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https://bcriohp.org/files/original/b01a2c79c40b00ef8da93c04bd4b51fd.jpg
3608ec472c85f80520b140e67411e8ee
Dublin Core
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
Type
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Laura Anderson
Interviewee
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Bryan Stevenson
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=BStevenson2012.xml
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Poverty
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contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.3 October 31, 2012 Bryan Stevenson Interviewed on October 31, 2012 20121031S 00:44:21 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Alexandra M. Smith Equal Justice Initiative Incarceration issues Slavery Stevenson, Bryan Poverty Bryan Stevenson Laura Anderson Video 1:|21(12)|32(14)|44(8)|55(5)|70(8)|81(8)|93(8)|105(4)|116(12)|128(7)|141(3)|153(12)|166(1)|179(8)|190(4)|201(6)|212(6)|222(9)|235(4)|249(6)|259(10)|271(9)|286(11)|300(9)|313(6)|325(12)|342(8)|354(12)|366(4)|379(3)|392(4)|403(11)|415(11)|427(12)|438(10)|448(11)|464(3)|482(3)|492(10)|507(6)|522(11)|532(10)|542(9)|560(8) 0 https://youtu.be/Y4dao1vE74U YouTube video English 0 Introduction and Shuttlesworth Award So, I’m really, really honored by this kind of recognition and to receive something in his [Fred Shuttlesworth] name and also in the name of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute, which is an amazing institution. Introduction of the interviews and response to the Fred L. Shuttlesworth Human Rights Award. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Stevenson, Bryan 33.516200, -86.813870 18 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage https://www.bcri.org/annual-shuttlesworth/ Fred L. Shuttlesworth Human Rights Award 38 About the Equal Justice Initiative Sure. We at EJI, we do a lot of work around excessive punishment, around mass incarceration, around abuse of power in the criminal justice system, but we also have a project on race and poverty. Summarizing EJI's work. Mass Incarceration ; Prison Reform Equal Justice Initiative ; Montgomery County (Ala.) ; Stevenson, Bryan 17 https://eji.org/ EJI Homepage 156 Commerce St. and the Slave Trade in Montgomery, AL This street, Commerce St. where so much is happening, is also a place that has a very, very significant history that we're not talking about. That we haven't recognized. The history of the slave trade in the capital of Alabama. Commerce Street Montgomery County (Ala.) ; Slave trade 32.379646, -86.311218 17 Commerce St. in Montgomery, Alabama 301 Four Institutions that Shape African-American Experience Yeah. I'm very interested in recharacterizing the experience of African-Americans in this country through the lens of relationships with institutions. For example, I see four institutions that have shaped the hopes, the aspirations, the dreams of African-Americans in very profound ways. Stevenson lists four institutions that have shaped African-American experience throughout history and in the current era. African American history ; Slavery ; Trauma Healing and Reconciliation Services 17 324 First Institution: Slavery I'm looking at institutions that have been threats, barriers at a full engagement and so the institution of slavery, obviously, would be the first institution. The role of slavery in the African-American experience in the US African American history ; Oppression ; Slavery African American history 17 443 Second Institution: Terror I think the second institution hasn't been defined as an institution but I think it's important to think about it as an institution and that was the institution of terror. The role of terror in the African-American experience in the US. Terror and society African American history 17 529 Third Institution: Jim Crow (Segregation) Third institution was, of course, Jim Crow, segregation. We know a lot more about that because it's more recent, but also because there was resistance. The role of segregation in the African-American experience in the US. African Americans--Segregation African American history 17 698 Fourth Institution: Mass Incarceration I think the fourth institution, because we didn't engage in truth and reconciliation, has emerged in the last 30 years and I believe that's mass incarceration. The role of mass incarceration in the African-American experience in the US. Incarceration issues ; Oppression African American history 17 873 Calendar of African-American Oppression We're about to publish a calendar. It's our first publication in our race and poverty project. It's a calendar that documents the African-American experience but it's not a calendar that celebrates Black achievement. 17 https://calendar.eji.org/racial-injustice/apr/17 EJI Calendar 1163 Mass Incarceration It's an interesting evolution for me. I mean I did start out, really, just working on individual cases with clients and the influence of poverty and the influence of race was so pervasive and all of these individual cases, all of my clients are poor. Stevenson details the factors and obstacles involved in combatting mass incarceration. He also expands on the growth and impact of mass incarceration in the US. Incarceration issues ; Poverty 17 1615 International Racial Justice Work Yeah. Well, it's fascinating. I have done work outside of the US and it's always been an interesting experience for me. Stevenson details his International work in mass incarceration, the death penalty and prison reform. Incarceration issues ; Social justice Equal Justice Initiative 17 1852 Hope I have to be hopeful. I think when you allow yourself to get hopeless about what can be done, you begin to prepare yourself for failure. 17 1957 The Economics of Mass Incarceration The only upside is that it's causing us to reevaluate some of these policies. I think we now realize that we are bankrupting our educational system, people are sending their kids to Auburn and Alabama and other colleges and universities in the state are paying more because we're spending millions of dollars to incarcerate people who are not a threat to public safety. Explanation of the economic system of mass incarceration including the impact on local economy, the role of poverty and racial profiling. Poverty ; Racial profiling in law enforcement Equal Justice Initiative ; Incarceration issues ; Prison-industrial complex 17 2269 The National Work of EJI You know, our work has become more national. Our work with kids was national, most of those cases were done outside the state. The Lee case that went to the US Supreme Court was actually an Alabama case but our work has really been national in that issue. Stevenson breaks down how EJI operates on a national stage. Capital punishment ; Equal Justice Initiative 17 2411 EJI in Alabama There's a part of that analysis which I think is true. I mean I started in Atlanta with the Southern Prisoners Defense Committee. I was doing a lot of work here in Alabama, this is in the mid-'80s, and it was clear to me that Alabama was a state where there were very few resources. The story of how EJI has it's roots and future in the State of Alabama. Alabama ; Incarceration issues Southern Prisoners' Defense Committee 17 Oral History Bryan Stevenson discusses accepting the Fred L. Shuttlesworth Human Rights Award and his work with the Equal Justice Initiative in the state of Alabama, nationally and internationally. STEVENSON: So, I' ; m really, really honored by this kind of recognition and to receive something in his [Fred Shuttlesworth] name and also in the name of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute, which is an amazing institution. Not just in the state, but I think in the country, as a place where people can experience this history which is not as well as understood as I think it needs to be. ANDERSON: Well we' ; re honored that you will accept the Award-- STEVENSON: Well it' ; s my pleasure. ANDERSON: And spend a little time with us today and then come back on Saturday-- STEVENSON: Yes. ANDERSON: Could you tell me more about your employees coming up to the Institution? STEVENSON: Sure. We at the, at EJI [Equal Justice Initiative], we do a lot of work around excessive punishment, around mass incarceration, around abuse of power in the criminal justice system. But we also have a project on race and poverty. And in fact our newest work is really trying to look through the lens of history and to current issues and contemporary policies to try to push for deeper, more meaningful search for the truth, and for the ways in which we have to move forward to deal with this history of inequality and injustice. And the Institute is an amazing resource and place for experiencing some of that history. So every person who comes to work at EJI is required to come to the Institute here in Birmingham and spend several hours going through the exhibits, learning that history. I encourage all of my staff to read the history of the Civil Rights struggle, particularly the local history because some of these places where we are working--in some of these communities where we' ; re dealing with issues that have very strong racial components to them--cannot be adequately understood unless you know this history, which dates back 50 years. 100 years. 150 years. And so we' ; re really interested in how to reevaluate the history of racial inequality ; very interested in that. In fact, one of our newest projects is even looking at the local history where our office is. So my office is on 122 Commerce Street in downtown Montgomery. Montgomery, like sections of Birmingham, is experiencing a little bit of development which everybody is excited about. We have a minor league baseball team now, the Biscuits ; and there' ; re restaurants and hotels that are coming into the downtown area. And I' ; m very pleased about that. I support that. But this street, Commerce Street, where so much is happening, is also a place that has a very, very significant history that we' ; re not talking about, that we haven' ; t recognized. Commerce Street was one of the most active slave trading spaces in America from 1815 until the beginning of the Civil War. And thousands of enslaved people were unloaded at the docks on the Alabama River, about 150 yards to the east of our office, and they were paraded up Commerce Street, chained together in caffolds, and then sold at the square, which is 150 to the west of my office. And it was a huge slave trading space. The Black Belt in this region was largely populated through slave trading in Montgomery. And there is a little, tiny sign that marks the slave auction site ; but other than that, we don' ; t talk about that history. We don' ; t recognize that history. And in this effort to commercialize and celebrate all of the development opportunities, I think there is resistance in confronting that history, and I think we need to confront it. When I walk up that street, I imagine that experience--there were slave depots all over Montgomery. Montgomery was notorious as a place where African-Americans could be resold into slavery. Slave traders didn' ; t have to prove that they' ; d actually bought you legally from some slave owner. So it was a place where many black people would be kidnapped and brought and then sold back into slavery because Montgomery didn' ; t require proof of prior ownership. And there was some other aspects to the slave trade in Montgomery that were deeply troubling. There was no covenant that required that families be sold together. You could separate a family. So that space in Montgomery was a place of tremendous trauma and pain and anguish and great injustice. And we want to talk about that. We want to talk about other aspects of the African-American experience in the state. And that' ; s why we want our staff to be very familiar with the Civil Rights experience and what they could learn here at the Institute is incredibly important toward that end. ANDERSON: When you said that EJI wants to talk about it, do you know yet what that means? STEVENSON: Yeah I' ; m, you know, I' ; m very interested in re-characterizing the experience of African-Americans in this country, through the lens of relationships with institutions. So, for example, I see four institutions that have shaped the hopes, the aspirations, the dreams of African-Americans in very profound ways, and I' ; m looking at institutions that have been threats, barriers, to full engagement. And so the institution of slavery would obviously be the first institution: it' ; s what created so much of the tension and the misinformation and the bias and the presumptions and the prejudice. And in that context, talking about Commerce Street, talking about the way slave trading functioned, talking about the way the dynamics of slavery created something more than a slave society. Many countries had slavery. Europeans had slavery. Throughout all of the world there has been enslavement as a mechanism for economic repayment and as a penalty for war and all of these things. But slavery in most parts of the world represented something very different than it represented in the United States. In the United States, in the Southern United States, because of this racial difference between the people who were enslaved and the people who owned slaves, slavery became more than just economic payback and suffrage and dependence. It became a caste system, and we created a slave society that was also a society that was organized by race. And because of that the end of slavery didn' ; t accomplish the same kind of relief the same kind of opportunity for enslaved people that it did in other parts of the world. And I think we need to understand the way in which slavery in this country created a mythology about the inhumanity of African-Americans, the inferiority of African-Americans, that the end of slavery didn' ; t address. As a result of that we were set up for, I believe, 100 years of struggle, 200 years of tension, and we haven' ; t confronted that slave reality. In fact, we' ; ve done the opposite. We' ; ve tried to minimize the horrific aspects of slavery. So we want to talk about that institutional relationship through a different lens. I think the second institution hasn' ; t been defined as an institution--but I think it' ; s important to think about it as an institution--and that was the institution of terror. At the end of Reconstruction until World War II, African-Americans were subjected to systematic terror. It was the threat of violence. It was lynching. It was convict leasing. It was bombings. It was all of the violence that made black subordination possible. Passing laws didn' ; t persuade African-Americans that they were inferior or should be submissive. You had to enforce them with violence and with terror. And that' ; s what happened. And that era of terror has not in my judgment been totally recognized. African-Americans in the Deep South recognize it. Many of us are offended when we hear people on TV talking about how we' ; re dealing with terrorism for the first time after 9/11. And knowing that we have the capacity to respond to terror the way we' ; ve respond to terror in the last 15 years is a little troubling because we didn' ; t make that response over the decades when African-Americans were being systematically victimized: they couldn' ; t go to law enforcement, they couldn' ; t go anywhere. And that inspired the Great Migration and did a whole host of things. But that institution of terror in my view hasn' ; t been well defined, or well understood. Third institution was of course Jim Crow segregation ; we know a lot more about that, because it' ; s more recent, but also because there was resistance. We had very powerful leaders in the African-American community and other communities finding that experience in ways, I think, were quite profound. We also know about it because we succeeded in confronting it. What we don' ; t appreciate about even that institution, however, is that it was systematic. It was structural. It was psychological. It had aspects to it that we haven' ; t fully defined. As a result of that we thought we could change the laws that created it and then just move on. And I think that' ; s a mistake, and I think we are still struggling to overcome segregation, apartheid, racial hierarchy, because we haven' ; t talked about it. And in South Africa, Rwanda, these countries that dealt with horrific human rights violations recognized that to get past them, you have to commit yourself to a process of truth and reconciliation. And in the United States, we didn' ; t do that. We created no space to tell the truth about what Jim Crow and segregation had done to everybody ; not just African-Americans but to white people too. All of that trauma, all of that humiliation, all of that violence, all of that stigma, all of those presumptions, we never gave anybody space to talk about it. In fact we did the opposite. We wouldn' ; t let people talk about it. And we' ; ve tried to move on, and I don' ; t think we' ; ve moved nearly as far as we could' ; ve moved. And we won' ; t get as far as we need to get until we go back and actually create that space. I think it cannot happen without that. Apartheid could not have been confronted without truth and reconciliation ; Rwanda, the genocide could not be confronted without truth and reconciliation. I think in the United States, segregation and the legacy of racial apartheid and racial subordination cannot be confronted until we create that space. My family members and people in the African-American community need an opportunity to give voice to the pain and the anguish, the humiliation and the trauma that they lived with and continue to live with. And we need to let people who are white also know that they were also the victims of a lie. They were taught by their parents and grandparents that they are actually better than other people because of their skin color. And there is nothing more corruptive, nothing more abusive that you can do to someone than to feed them a lie and have them embrace that lie and let that lie shape their worldview. And so it' ; s not just for African-Americans that I think we need to have this experience of truth and reconciliation. I think it' ; s for the entire community. I think the fourth institution because we didn' ; t engage in truth and reconciliation has emerged in the last thirty years, and I believe that' ; s mass incarceration. I believe the way in which we have used the criminal justice system as a repository for our fear and our anger, for our presumptions of guilt that we assign to many people of color, our presumptions of worthlessness that we assign to people of color. We have created structures that are every bit as racially compromised as some of the structures that existed eighty years ago, but we' ; ve surrounded them with procedures and formalities that make us believe that things like the death penalty are shielded from racial bias. Or our sentencing system is shielded from racial bias. Or our criminal justice system is shielded from the ravages that poverty create, and a system that is wealth dependent. Our system, our criminal justice system, is shaped by wealth. It treats you better if you' ; re rich and guilty than if you' ; re poor and innocent. And so that institutional reality had devastating consequences for communities of color. In the state of Alabama, 34% of the black male population has permanently lost the right to vote. And in a state where we celebrate the Voting Rights Act, we celebrate that struggle, we are systematically losing African-American voters throughout the criminal justice system, and we' ; re resisting even talking about that issue. We' ; re going to get to the point in some communities where the level of disenfranchisement among African-Americans is actually going to be as high as it was when the Voting Rights Act was passed. And to me that' ; s intolerable. We' ; re using mass incarceration to devastate communities. There are places in this state and across the country where 40 to 50% of the men of color are in jail, or in prison, or on probation and parole ; which is a permanent lifetime ban from certain kinds of opportunities. We' ; ve used the politics of fear and anger to do some really devastating things to children. My work has focused a lot on kids prosecuted as adults, children sentenced to die in prison. The United States is the only country in the world that has condemned thirteen-year-old children to die in prison--life in prison without parole. Seventy percent of those kids thirteen and fourteen are African-American or Latino. And to me that represents again this institutional threat, this barrier to full and fair participation in the society. And so our project is really aimed at giving voice to this lens, and then kind of trying to educate people about historical realities with a goal of engaging people more deeply. We don' ; t want people to just know about lynching or the Civil Rights Movement. We want them to understand the trauma, the injury. We' ; re about to publish a calendar. It' ; s our first kind of publication in our Race and Poverty Project, and it' ; s a calendar that documents the African-American experience ; but it' ; s not a calendar that celebrates black achievement. It' ; s not about the first African-American to do this, or the first African-American to do that. It' ; s a calendar that documents the oppression and the violence and the barriers that have been constructed to limit African-American achievements. It talks about lynchings. It talks about the laws that were passed that insisted on racial hierarchy. It talks about the struggle to actually overcome slavery. It talks about resistance to Civil Rights. It talks about all of the structural and personal barriers that African-Americans have had to confront, and it asks us to not simply remember the success and the achievement but to remember the ugliness, the pain, the anguish, the violence, the despair. Because if we don' ; t understand that part we' ; ll misperceive what the Civil Rights experience--what the history--is really about. And I' ; m hoping we can do that in other areas where we' ; re very interested in actually examining the rule, the role of the law as a project with lawyers and people who have done legal reform. Very few people appreciate that bias and discrimination--bigotry and racial hierarchy--warrant personal attitudes in the movies and in our current culture. We like to reduce these problems to a handful of bad actors. We love to prosecute Klu Klux Klan members and extremists as the face of racial bigotry. When in fact, the face of racial bigotry were ordinary citizens--legislators, judges, city council members, ministers--who bought into a construct of racial hierarchy and acculturated to it, socialized to it, even made their religious faiths and values accommodating. And until we understand that, I don' ; t think we actually get how big a problem this was. And so we like talking about the laws that were passed to construct this kind of racial hierarchy. At the Institute here you have the ordinances that were passed. I think that' ; s really important for people to appreciate. It wasn' ; t some mean white person down the street that wouldn' ; t let black people do X and Y. This was a system. It was a system that had been passed down over decades, and so we' ; re putting out reports about this relationship between race and the law. We' ; re doing some things that are designed to engage the people in various communities around some of these issues. Because of our work in the death penalty area, we' ; re very interested in the use of lethal violence as an expression of cultural norms, social norms that have racial implications. And so we' ; re very interested in lynching, and one of our hopes is to actually begin talking about monuments and memorializing lynching sites. And we want people to appreciate the proximity between these horrific acts of gross human rights violations--mass violence, mass torture--that were committed in these communities all around us. We have no consciousness about it. We don' ; t talk about it, and I think we have to confront it. In our country we know that when you victimize people unfairly you can' ; t just ignore it. I mean, we' ; re doing a lot to appreciate what 9/11 did, and we would think it unconscionable to have experienced that violence and that injury without talking about it ; without doing something to reconcile ourselves with that. And yet, in the context of lynching, we never did that. We don' ; t talk about it. We' ; re not even allowed to actually understand where it happened and who was involved. And so our project is going to do a lot of work around that phenomenon. And there are things in that vein that I' ; m hoping we can do to really push on what this legacy of racial inequality has done. ANDERSON: I know I picture you in a prison with a young person talking. I mean you are very hands on, and here you are speaking in really broad terms about systemic change. You' ; re an incredible communicator, and so I' ; m excited about the potential of what you' ; re talking about. Also, how do you balance being in the weeds and getting work done? STEVENSON: Yeah. You know? It' ; s an interesting evolution for me. I mean, I did start out really just working on individual cases with clients, and the influence of poverty and influence of race was so pervasive. And all of these individual cases, all of my clients, are poor. Many of them are people of color whose race has absolutely been a factor in their ability to get fair and just treatment. And we' ; ve done a lot of work around that. I see some of these issues as Civil Rights issues, as human rights issues. To me, the death penalty is a Civil Rights issue. Excessive punishment is a Civil Rights issue. Mass incarceration is a Civil Rights issue, and through our work in individual cases, and in efforts to kind of challenge these issues, it' ; s always been the way I' ; ve thought of the work that I do and the work that we do at EJI. I think we' ; re now at a point where it becomes important to make these connections in a more direct way, and that' ; s the reason why we' ; ve made kind of race and poverty our newest project. In many ways, it' ; s an evolution. You know? The work I' ; ve done around death cases--where we' ; ve been challenging the exclusion of African-Americans from juries and the kind of really racialized ways in which cases are sometimes prosecuted, the exclusion of people of color in decision making roles in the system, the disparate sentencing--all of that has been about the way in which this legacy of race and racial bias manifests itself today. I think now it' ; s time to really take these issues and put them in this broader context so people can understand why we' ; re still talking about race. Why we' ; re talking about poverty as structural poverty. Not just as someone who doesn' ; t have something and the relationship between the two. We' ; re in a region where race and poverty have gone hand in hand to create barriers to opportunity and full expression of all the values we say we care about. And so, for me, it becomes necessary to make those connections. And so in a lot of ways it' ; s my time in prison cells with poor people and with young men and boys of color, and women of color and other people that has got me to this place where I now think it' ; s really important to put in a broader context this, this struggle and these issues. ANDERSON: Who' ; s gonna get the calendar? I mean, I' ; m thinking I want every known person who' ; s in prison to get it, but they can' ; t even read Slavery By Another Name. So? STEVENSON: [laughs] Well, that' ; s a really good question. Well, you know? The calendar is as much for people who are outside the prison context as it is for people inside, and so we' ; ll focus on the thousands and millions of people who need to understand that history. Who won' ; t have that barrier, but we' ; re also going to keep challenging this idea that incarcerated people--condemned people--somehow should be shielded from understanding these historical forces. I tend to think that a deeper understanding of these forces can actually be a pathway to recovery, to reinterpretation, to rehabilitation. You know? I work with young kids and one of the saddest things I do is I talk to these kids, and if you get them to engage in really honest conversation, the bottom line is that many of them are quite hopeless. They see their friends and their neighbors and their siblings dying or effectively dying by being sent to prison for the rest of their life, and it creates this despair. And they say to me," ; Mr. Stevenson: , I know I' ; m going to be in prison or dead by the time I' ; m twenty-one," ; and they' ; re twelve and thirteen years of age. And they say I' ; ve got to go out here and get mine while I can. And that kind of framing is the kind of framing that for 150 years African-American leaders were trying to protect against. You had to persuade people during slavery that freedom would be good. That it would be safe to be free. And even though it wasn' ; t always safe to be free, you had to have that hope. You had to have that vision. During Reconstruction, people embraced freedom, and then it was crushed and taken away from them. And so to keep striving for it took courage. You couldn' ; t just look at what was right in front of you and accept that and react to that and have that shape your hopes and dreams. You had to fight against it. You had to submit to it in many ways. You had to play along with it in many ways, but you had to understand and believe that there was more. And those who had that vision succeeded, and those who didn' ; t died in agony, in misery--victims of this horrific system. It' ; s true during the Era of Terror, convict leasing, all of these institutions. That was true during the Civil Rights Movement. Lots of people claimed to have been active but most people were sitting on the sidewalks or hiding someplace. It really required a lot of hope and a lot of courage to say, " ; You know what? Even though we' ; re going to be confronted with ugliness and violence, we' ; re going to still press on." ; And that prevailed in many ways, but that hope and courage was essential. There could be no Civil Rights Movement without believing things you hadn' ; t seen. Believing that there could be integration in Alabama. Believing that you could achieve opportunities that had been denied for a century. And so that same frame is needed for our young people in jails and prisons, and for our whole society. Right? Because a lot of these sentences, a lot of what' ; s expressed by mass incarceration is hopelessness. We can' ; t do better for people, so let' ; s throw them away: " ; Three strikes, you' ; re out! We' ; ll put you in prison for the rest of your life." ; The growth of life imprisonment without parole is an acceptable sentence and we actually take pride in our ability to throw people away. And that has to be challenged, because it is ultimately hopeless. It is the opposite of courage, in my view. It repudiates everything we claim when we talk about rehabilitation and redemption and recovery and reconciliation. And so I think there ought to be a whole community of people--faith people, people of color, poor people, people who understand the importance of getting back up when you' ; ve fallen down--who are pushing, demanding for something more hopeful. But instead, I think we' ; ve been distracted by the politics of fear and anger in a way that has silenced us and made us complacent. And part of what we want to do is challenge that silence and engage people and get them to understand that you shouldn' ; t, you can' ; t celebrate Civil Rights and be silent about mass incarceration. You can' ; t embrace the Montgomery Bus Boycott and the Voting Rights struggle and be indifferent about disenfranchisement of ex-offenders. All of these things express basic realities, basic truths, and it wasn' ; t true fifty years ago and a lie today. If it was true then, it' ; s true today. And that struggle is very much a part of what we' ; re hoping to animate through some of our work. ANDERSON: I wanna ask you about travel outside our country. I' ; m sure that you are asked to speak a lot. And here, the mission of the Institute was to promote civil and human rights worldwide through education. STEVENSON: Yeah. ANDERSON: I would love to know your perceptions of us that you' ; ve encountered. STEVENSON: Yeah ; well it' ; s fascinating. I have done work outside of the U.S. and it' ; s always been an interesting experience for me. I was doing work in Brazil many years ago because there was an effort--they don' ; t have the death penalty, but there was an effort to bring the death penalty back--and I was asked to spend some time down there and it was interesting because their sense of race and racial identity was very different than what we have here in this country, and yet there were these very stark realities. Brown and black people did experience bias and discrimination even if they didn' ; t self-identify in that way. And it was fascinating for me to talk about racial identity and racial struggle in a society where these realities existed, but there hadn' ; t really been an expression around that frame. And I' ; ve seen this throughout the world. I think the United States has a reputation as being a first world country, as having a commitment to human rights ; and there are a lot of things that we do that I think are admirable. But we are also very myopic. We are not good at evaluating these issues close to home. We' ; re the only country, along with Somalia, that has refused to sign the Covenant on the Rights of the Child, and I think that undermines our status, I think it makes us less credible when we talk about human rights globally. We do a lot of things to say we believe democracy is important and expression is important, but when we disenfranchise people here, and we' ; re indifferent about that, that compromises our commitment to human rights. And I think other countries are very quick to recognize this. And so I do think this is a global issue. I don' ; t think we can maintain the relationships we want to maintain with other countries, many of which are critical for our self-interest without being more attentive to human rights in this country. Without being more rigorous about how we enforce the values and the laws and norms we talk so much about in this country. And I have never been shy about giving voice to the problems in the U.S., outside of the U.S.. And a lot of people think that' ; s not cool, but you know I was in Russia on the day when Boris Yelstin commuted all of the death sentences of people on death row there. Russia does not have an active death penalty anymore, and I was very comfortable saying, " ; You know? You will be moving ahead of the United States on this human rights issue. You know? You used to have the highest rate of incarceration in the world with reforms. That will no longer be true. It will be true for the United States." ; And these are realities that I don' ; t create, but they' ; re realities nonetheless. And I think we have to talk about them. You know, I did work on capital punishment on China. The Chinese were very quick to point out that they don' ; t execute juveniles. You can' ; t get the death penalty if you' ; re under the age of eighteen. When I was there in the early part of 2000s, we did. And those kinds of disconnects compromise our ability to advance human rights globally. So I do think it' ; s important that we have this global perspective, but I also think, you know, that as the slogan says " ; It' ; s important to think globally but act locally." ; I think we have the ability to change and affect human rights on a daily basis in our community here. And we shouldn' ; t believe that it' ; s better to go do this someplace faraway because sometimes that' ; s easier. But the reality is, until we address these issues locally, were not going to have influence and credibility globally. ANDERSON: Are you hopeful about our country, especially after this past summer? STEVENSON: [laughs] You know? I have to be hopeful. I think when you, when you allow yourself to get hopeless about what can be done you begin to prepare yourself for failure. You shut down. You' ; re not as creative. You' ; re not as courageous. You' ; re not as energized. You' ; re not as engaged. It' ; s just what the body does. It' ; s what the mind does, and so I think you have to remain hopeful. There are times when it' ; s hard, because the signs you see, the words you hear are very, very discouraging. But I do remain hopeful: I see a lot that encourages me. On mass incarceration, I think we' ; re about to turn a corner. I think the economic crises had one upside, and it' ; s basically the only upside: it caused us to appreciate that we cannot afford that nearly six million people on probation and parole in this country and 2.3 million people in jails and prisons. Even here in Alabama where the prison population of close to 30,000 people, which is six times greater than it was in 1979. In 1979, there were 5,000 people in jails and prisons in the State of Alabama. Today there are 30,000, and you know our violent crime rate was the same then as it is now. So this increase in 25,000 people in prison is not about crime. It' ; s about a misguided war on drugs, which is not a crime problem. It' ; s a health problem. And if we really cared about people who are struggling with drug addiction and drug abuse, we would actually engage them through a health framework and try to heal them, to try to help them. But instead we punish them, we threaten them, and then we condemn them to prison--at our expense--for decades. And so the only upside is that cost is causing us to reevaluate some of these policies. I think we now realize that we are bankrupting our educational system. People who are sending their kids to Auburn and Alabama and other colleges and universities in this state are paying more because we are spending millions of dollars to incarcerate people who are not a threat to public safety. And it doesn' ; t really make sense to do that. We should use those dollars to invest in more opportunities for people. Some states (the state of California) spent over $100,000 per juvenile in juvenile detention, and you just think what you could do if you spent just a tenth of that on the kids to prevent them from engaging in behaviors that result in these arrests. And what you would do for the larger community. We don' ; t like to spend money on poor people, we don' ; t like to spend money on people who are vulnerable and marginalized, but we ultimately DO. We just do it in the correctional context. And I would rather do it in ways that actually prevents crime ; lowers the misconduct ; creates a healthier, safer community for everybody. And then you get someplace. You don' ; t keep repeating the same mistakes, and I do think that there is some recognition, now, that we' ; re going to have to bring the prison population down. That we' ; re going to have to embrace some reforms. We can' ; t just punish our way out of all of the social problems and economic problems that we' ; ve created ; and that we' ; re going to have to reevaluate what it means to be a healthy place. You know? You see this, we do these reactionary laws that are so misguided, and I think the immigration law is an example of that. We now have this unbearably racist law in Alabama. It' ; s a law that basically legalizes racial profiling. And as a result of that, we realize that we were going to be punished by people who don' ; t want to be profiled, who are not poor, who are not marginalized. They' ; re investors. They' ; re Europeans. They' ; re Chinese. They' ; re Asians looking for economic opportunity, and we cannot have that benefit, we cannot have that business that we care so much about without confronting the racial history. And the reputation and the identity we' ; ve created for ourselves by resisting Civil Rights, by resisting equality, by promoting--if you will--and taking pride in a history that actually glories in some of these dynamics. You know? Because I' ; m a product of the Civil Rights Movement and grew up with Jim Crow, I' ; m the first to admit that I don' ; t like that we love talking about the good ole days, that we sentimentalize these experiences as if they were just glorious and wonderful. We embrace Confederate Memorial Day as a state holiday ; and we don' ; t even really understand what that means. We think these icons of the Confederacy are people to be emulated and respected but we don' ; t really understand what that represents. We' ; re not very careful about not naming things after people who were proponents of horrific racial violence and destruction and engaged in systematic violence directed at people of color. Some of the worst eugenicists that used sterilization and abusive medical procedures in poor communities and minority communities are the people in the Alabama Medical Hall of Fame. And we' ; re not very careful about that, because we haven' ; t really committed to confronting this history, and so I believe our economic development and future is going to always be constrained until we do that. And so that' ; s what makes me hopeful. If we can give expression to these problems in ways that people recognize it' ; s not just for black people. It' ; s not just for brown people. It' ; s not just for undocumented people that we' ; re insisting on fairness and equality. It' ; s for everybody. Then perhaps there might be an opportunity to see real progress. ANDERSON: That' ; s what the Movement was about. STEVENSON: Completely about. The Civil Rights Movement was always expressed in terms of: " ; This is not for us. It' ; s for everybody." ; And I don' ; t think people actually understood it then, and I' ; m not sure they understand it now. And in too many places we celebrate the Movement. We talk about the Movement in that same narrow frame: " ; It was for them. Well, that' ; s your holiday. That' ; s your success. That' ; s your story. Ours is the great Confederacy, and the great resistance of this, and the great-" ; And I think we have to confront that. We have to talk about that. ANDERSON: I could talk to you all day and listen all day. STEVENSON: [laughs] ANDERSON: I have so many questions. I just want to know one thing. I' ; m kind of lost. Who listens to you? Are you spending more time in Alabama or outside Alabama? STEVENSON: You know? Our work has become more national. Our work with kids was national. Most of those cases were done outside the state. The lead case that went to the U.S. Supreme Court was actually an Alabama case, but our work has really been national on that issue. I do a lot of work on the death penalty all over the place, but our litigation is mostly here in Alabama. Our wrongful conviction/abuse of power stuff tends to be regional in the South. Our race and poverty work I expect will be national, but it will have a regional focus because obviously the states of the Old Confederacy are the jurisdictions where these dynamics were particularly intense. But I' ; m hoping it will have a kind of regional component to it but with a national goal. We think the whole country needs to engage in this dialogue around racial memory and overcoming racial inequality through truth and reconciliation. People think--younger people who grew up in Chicago, Detroit, New York, Baltimore, Boston--who believe that they have no connection to the South and the reality is of course they do. They don' ; t even understand the Great Migration and how they are refugees of the same kind of violence and terror that we' ; re talking about in this region. They' ; re not disconnected. They are the exiles. And because they sought a refuge in another part of this country doesn' ; t make that experience any less meaningful and powerful. And so we' ; ve got to understand that and think about that through that lens. ANDERSON: I looked for the answer to this question elsewhere, because you have received some press. Like I said, you' ; re a wonderful communicator and that' ; s been captured. It' ; s so great to have that, and I' ; m not endeavoring to get your life' ; s story because we don' ; t have time. STEVENSON: [laughs] ANDERSON: But I do wonder did you say " ; I' ; m just gonna pick the most regressively structured state and go there?" ; When you made the decision to go to Alabama, because the Constitution just sets this place up. STEVENSON: Yeah ANDERSON: These things are doubly entrenched. STEVENSON: You know? There' ; s a part of that analysis which I think is true: I mean I started in Atlanta with the Southern Prisoners Defense Committee. I was doing a lot of work here in Alabama. This was in the mid-80' ; s, and it was clear to me that Alabama was a state where there were very few resources. There was no public defenders system here. There weren' ; t institutions that were focused on the plight of incarcerated people, condemned people. There was no real tradition of a vibrant legal community that was engaged in the kind of resistance to fear and anger in the criminal justice context, and so we clearly saw a big need here, and that was the reason why I came. I didn' ; t really intend to stay. I mean, my hope had actually been to go back to Atlanta and keep doing the work I was doing there. But the proximity is the pathway to truth: you cannot really appreciate what the needs are until you get close enough to evaluate them. And being here and experiencing what I experienced made it harder and harder to be anyplace else, to go anyplace else because the issues that I saw were deeply disturbing and engaging. And the opportunities I saw to make progress were also engaging. And you know? Now, this is home. It' ; s where I' ; ve been for almost thirty years now. And it becomes part of what' ; s important, because in many ways it' ; s only when we see progress, it' ; s only when we achieve success in places that are entrenched, where the resistance is constitutional, where the barriers are so insidious that we can actually really claim progress. You know? It' ; s very easy to create diversity and promise and opportunity in elite institutions and elite places where nothing really challenging emerges. You know? You really do measure progress, you measure commitment to the rule of law, you measure a commitment to equality and fairness by how you treat the poorest, most marginalized, most victimized, most institutionalized people, in the most regressive and resistant places. And that means that Alabama will still be the thermostat for how we progress on race in this country--not some other jurisdiction. Because as we are part of this country, this country can' ; t claim anything until we see that in places like Alabama. And so, yeah, I don' ; t have regrets about being here. It' ; s been challenging and at times overwhelming but also deeply enriching and that' ; s the beautiful thing about proximity: it can break you and cut you and bruise you, but it can also give you insights and truth and an understanding of the power of human dignity and human worth that you will not appreciate in more comfortable and convenient spaces. And so I actually still feel really privileged to have been here doing the work I' ; ve done. ANDERSON: Thank you. Thank you for doing it. STEVENSON: Thank you. That' ; s very kind. ANDERSON: For someone I' ; ve never met till today for whom I say, " ; Thank you." ; STEVENSON: [laughs] Well, thank you. I appreciate that. ANDERSON: So, like I said earlier, we' ; re really glad you' ; re going to be apart of this special week for us [Birmingham Civil Rights Institute]. It is our twentieth anniversary. I think you' ; re being the recipient and giving us the occasion to really understand what you are really all about. It' ; s very crucial for us at this current point in institutional mistreatment. Thank you. STEVENSON: Yes. Sure, sure. You' ; re welcome. Terrific. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=BStevenson2012.xml BStevenson2012.xml
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Bryan Stevenson
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Bryan Stevenson discusses accepting the Fred L. Shuttlesworth Human Rights Award and his work with the Equal Justice Initiative in the state of Alabama, nationally and internationally.
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20121031S
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Equal Justice Initiative
Incarceration issues
Slavery
Stevenson, Bryan
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2012-10-31
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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Carolyn Beard Wilson
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CBWilson1998.xml
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Desegregation in Public Schools
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5.4 August 13, 1998 Carolyn Beard Wilson Interviewed on August 13, 1998 19980813W 0:46:38 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Friends, Quakers Fellowship Program Davis, Angela Y. (Angela Yvonne), 1944- Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Desegregation in Public Schools Carolyn Beard Wilson Horace Huntley Video 1:|28(10)|57(5)|77(6)|95(5)|122(15)|145(10)|164(13)|181(5)|199(2)|212(9)|228(11)|241(6)|252(17)|270(1)|296(8)|326(7)|341(4)|359(13)|378(3)|401(13)|418(8)|431(3)|445(11)|463(12)|475(13)|493(2)|513(5)|525(13)|555(4)|569(8)|591(7)|606(9)|623(9)|633(6)|652(1)|662(5)|674(11)|684(15)|694(11)|714(8)|725(9)|737(7)|748(12)|763(12)|783(7)|795(14) 0 https://youtu.be/K6aoYuqp3ww YouTube video English 9 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Ms. Carolyn Beard Wilson for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I'm Dr. Horace Huntley. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 42 Background and Family Life I just want to ask you a couple of questions about your family. Were you born in Birmingham? Wilson talks about where she is from, her siblings, and her mother and father's education. Collins (Miss.) ; Meridian (Miss.) ; New Hope Baptist Church ; Piney Woods (Miss.) Lincoln University ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 201 Early Childhood through High School Now when you came to Birmingham, of course you don't remember when they brought you to Birmingham. This then becomes home. What do you remember about starting school? Wilson discusses where she went to elementary school and high school. Legion Field (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Lincoln School ; Parker High School 450 Her Father's Impact on Her Childhood Experience Tell me now, you lived in the parsonage. Your family was, your father was the minister at Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. Which was of course a prestigious church. How did you relate to other children as a result of the status of your father? Wilson describes how her father's position in the church impacted her life. Carver Theater African Americans--Segregation ; Racism ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 606 Personal Memories of Racial Segregation I know that all of our parents attempted to shelter us from that massive thing we call segregation or whatever. Do you have any recollection of any incidents that may relate to segregation and race during your childhood? Wilson recalls a time when she experienced racial segregation. Alabama Theater Blacks--Segregation ; Racism 718 Pressure on Black Men and Black Boys Now, I know during any time in the history of this country that there is always a lot of pressure on Black men or Black boys. Were your brothers, did your brothers ever have any difficulty that say a girl would not have? Wilson discusses the pressure placed on black men and boys, specifically her brothers. African Americans--Segregation ; Racism Black Men and Black Boys 830 Demonstrations of the Early 1960s Now, being really right downtown. You live in downtown, your church is in downtown. You were in close proximity physically anyway with many of the activities that were taking place particularly with, well, lets say in 1960, '61. Wilson recalls where she was at during the year of mass demonstrations. Miles College ; Tuskegee University Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Mass Demonstrations 949 Siblings' Involvement with Friends, the Quakers Fellowship Program For me, I missed being at home. That was my first time being away from home. By me not being at home I didn't do well with my lessons. I didn't do well at all. Wilson discusses her siblings' involvement with the Quakers Fellowship Program and how they moved away from Alabama. Kentucky ; New York (N.Y.) Friends, Quakers Fellowship Program 1088 Involvement in SCLC I could be involved in anything else but not going down to the marches with the hoses or the dogs or going down to the University of Alabama, the police. Anything like that she said you will get hurt. Wilson discusses her participation in the SCLC. Huntsville (Ala.) ; The University of Alabama ; Tuscaloosa County (Ala.) Dr. John Cashian ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 1161 Campus Life at Miles College Now, as the activities developed at Miles because I know Miles students were involved down here as well. Wilson recalls what it was like on Miles College campus during the time of mass demonstrations. Davis, Angela Y. (Angela Yvonne), 1944- ; Stokey Carmichael Dr. Lucius Pitts ; Miles College 1250 Anger Regarding the Discriminatory Treatment What are you angry about? Wilson discusses how angry she is about the way she was treated. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. ; Dr. P. Washington Coats Blacks--Segregation ; Racism ; Treatment of Blacks 1587 Desegregation and its Ramifications in the Workplace What did you do after Miles? Wilson discusses her teaching experiences at all-white and all-black schools. Huffman High School ; Kingston Elementary ; McElwain School Desegregation ; Racism 1975 Change in Alabama's Education System Over 30 Years So, you made the transition to high school. Over that 30 year period how has the system changed? How has education changed? Wilson discusses how Alabama's Public Education system has changed in her years of teaching. Desegregation in Public Schools Alabama's Public Education System 2153 Reflection on Her Past If there were anything, if you had the ability to change any portion of your life going back through it. What would you change? Wilson discusses one thing in her life she would change if she could. McElwain School Desegregation ; Treatment by Coworkers 2391 Meeting Her Husband I think the most and of course we had a lot of marvelous experiences being raised up in the church with our father being over us. Not only over us but everybody. Wilson recalls how she met her husband. African Americans--Marriage ; Rev. Prichard Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 2786 Conclusion of Interview Well, I certainly appreciate your time. Interview is concluded. Oral History Carolyn Beard Wilson discusses growing up in Sixteenth Street Baptist Church as the Pastor's daughter before attending Miles College and teaching in Birmingham. She details experiencing the process of school desegregation from an educator's perspective. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Carolyn Beard Wilson for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I' ; m Dr. Horace Huntley. We' ; re presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is August 13, 1998. Ms. Wilson, I' ; d like to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule and welcome to the Institute. WILSON: I' ; m glad to be here. HUNTLEY: I just want to ask you a couple of questions about your family. WILSON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Birmingham? WILSON: No. HUNTLEY: Where were you born? WILSON: I was born in Meridian, Mississippi. HUNTLEY: Meridian, Mississippi? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: So, were your parents then from Mississippi? WILSON: They are both from Mississippi. My mother is from Mount Olive. My dad is from New Haven. My father was called to a church in Meridian to preach, New Hope Baptist Church. Then when I was eight months old he was called here to preach at Sixteenth Street. HUNTLEY: So, really this is home. WILSON: Really this is home. This is where I was raised up. Right. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? WILSON: Ok, there were nine of us. We had one brother and a sister to pass away. HUNTLEY: I see. WILSON: Now there' ; s seven of us left. HUNTLEY: Where were you in that scheme of things? WILSON: I was like the first girl my mother had. Do you understand what I' ; m saying? HUNTLEY: Ok. WILSON: She had three boys before she had me. So, I was the first of a kind in that family unit. HUNTLEY: What about your parent' ; s education? How much education did they have? WILSON: My mother taught school in Mississippi before my father met and married her. My father of course went to Lincoln University and got his degree in divinity. Of course, there was a long hard struggle. It was very, very difficult for them. It was a thing they were determined to do. My mother being the oldest in her family. My grandfather was determined that they were going to go to college. She' ; s the one that went. HUNTLEY: Where did she go? WILSON: She went to Piney Woods at that time. That was a college. In fact we have her diploma and everything at home. HUNTLEY: Piney Woods is just one of the few Black Institutions such as that, that' ; s still around. WILSON: It is still around. HUNTLEY: I have a nephew in fact that went last summer and also this summer for a week at Piney Woods. His parents are in the military. He' ; s in Korea and they come here every year and they go to Piney Wood. WILSON: When we go home, when I say home, I mean my mother' ; s home for a family reunion or to visit my cousins. We passed through Collins, Mississippi and we passed the old courthouse. It' ; s still standing looking like a traditional small town courthouse where she had to go and get her teaching certificate, register and everything. Register to vote, believe it or not. You know what she had to go through for that. HUNTLEY: In Mississippi? WILSON: Yes, at that time but she was knowledgeable. HUNTLEY: Absolutely, must have been. Now when you came to Birmingham, of course you don' ; t remember when they brought you to Birmingham. This then becomes home. What do you remember about starting to school? Where did you start first grade? WILSON: We started, first of all we went to kindergarten, day care which used to be called the Federation Day Nursery. It was down there on the Jasper Road across from Legion Field. Of course, they' ; ve torn all that down now. Of course, that' ; s where my dad put us in nursery school, or day care, or kindergarten. From there of course to Lincoln School. That was always a wonderful experience from first grade all the way to eighth grade. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Lincoln? WILSON: I remember the strong teachers that loved and cared for you. And the marvelous principals, Mr. Sutherland, Sam Sutherland was one of our principals. Mr. . John Trailer was the other one. They' ; ve both passed on now. That was at the time when the principals had control. It was different than what it is now. HUNTLEY: Right. WILSON: The teachers even if they had a feeling against the principal it was not vocalized at all. The principal was it and the teachers taught us and they loved us like we were theirs. HUNTLEY: Yeah, and you lived in what community? WILSON: You mean now? HUNTLEY: No, then as you were growing up? WILSON: Right here at the parsonage next to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. That' ; s where we were raised up. HUNTLEY: So, how did you get back and forth to school? WILSON: We would lake little short cuts through the back alley ways. We would go down 6th Avenue North, that way. HUNTLEY: You would walk? WILSON: We would walk. The only time that we would maybe ride to school, which was very seldom, was if it was raining. If it was not raining hard dad would say still walk. You know walking was pleasurable because you had your schoolmates that lived right around you. Everybody lived together. You were protection for each other and at that time all the mothers, just about the mothers and grandmothers were at home. So, they knew who would be passing every morning at a certain time. All the way up to 11th Street we would walk. Through the little cuts we would call it. Then walk up to 8th Avenue, switch up that way. Then go up and go to school. HUNTLEY: After Lincoln where did you go? WILSON: Old Parker High which is right up the road. (Laughing) A couple of blocks right up the road. At first when I left Lincoln of course you know the Parker Annex was right down from us. HUNTLEY: 9th grade. WILSON: 9th grade there. Went to the Annex. After that we left and went up to Parker High School and we still walked to school. HUNTLEY: What was Parker High School like when you went? WILSON: To us it was wonderful. I think it had a lot to do with the way it was structured, the way the education system was structured for us at that time. I don' ; t know about the others. For example, you and I would start out together with Ms. Daisy H. Ray' ; s first period class. She would call the roll, but Ms. Daisy H. Ray would say teach you government. You go to second period together with the same class. Third, fourth, all the way to the end of the day. You would be with that same class until seventh period. Then you would break off and go to your various, cosmetology, band, shoe repair, whatever you wanted to go to. We were together all day so that was our family. We knew each other. The system of course was different then. HUNTLEY: Were you involved in any extracurricular activities? WILSON: I was always in the band. At Lincoln School I was in the band. When I got to Parker I was not in the band. I tried out for the choir and Mr. Willie Mayes Henry frightened me so badly, I was so afraid of him and my sister who was good and clean and played the piano. She played for the choir. So, I backed down and didn' ; t join it. I got into other organizations, the Travelers Club and things like that. The cosmetology unit and things like that. I was very, very sociable. I' ; ve always had been. HUNTLEY: I would not be able to tell that. (Laughing) Tell me now, you lived in the parsonage. Your family was, your father was the minister at Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. Which was of course a prestigious church. How did you relate to other children as a result of the status of your father? WILSON: Ok, and I' ; m assuming you mean children in my community and at school? HUNTLEY: In your community, right. WILSON: There was no difference made. My father was the kind of man, he was like that. In fact if he was coming to school to pick up me he would pick up you too and bring you home. When mom would cook dinner she would cook enough not only for us which there was a lot but she cooked enough for all of the children to come over and eat. So, we had a very good rapport with the children, with the neighborhood and of course my father was looked upon as the helper in the neighborhood. He was looked upon as the one that would help you out if you needed it. I remember a lot of times he would have to take people to the hospital and do things for people. That' ; s just the way he was. HUNTLEY: Now, what I' ; m bearing you say is that your childhood then was a good time in your life. WILSON: Very positive experience. HUNTLEY: Many times we, being from Birmingham, Birmingham being noted for its segregation people often wonder how do you have a good childhood in a setting such as this. WILSON: Our father of course taught us everything. He let us know about the racism, segregation, where it came from, how it got started. He would get books and bring them in for us to read them. So, we always knew what was going on but at the same time he sheltered and protected us from having any direct contact. If you know what I mean. He would not even let us go, we could go to the Carver Theater, walk across and go to the Carver, we could go to the Famous and the Frolic. Even though they were not up to par so to speak. Right down about a block or two was the Leary and he said no. He said, " ; You are not going to go upstairs to a colored balcony while the Whites sit downstairs." ; He would not permit us to do it. I think one time one of us did and boy did we regret it. So, he was always very... it was painful for him. As we have grown up now and we look back we see that it was so painful for him to deal with this racism. HUNTLEY: I know that all of our parents attempted to shelter us from that massive thing we call segregation or whatever. That' ; s almost next to impossible in a setting such as that. Do you have any recollection of any incidents that may relate to segregation and race during your childhood? WILSON: Yes, I have a couple I believe. I remember something was going on at Fair Park and we could not go. My daddy had to have the terrible duty of telling us why. So therefore, we had to go down Bessemer Highway to a little park off of that, it was called Kiddie Land. HUNTLEY: In Roosevelt? WILSON: In Roosevelt. We still have the pictures of us riding around in little Kiddie cars. That was one. That was so painful. Even today I don' ; t have any use for Fair Park, Alabama Theater. Now speaking of some personal things that happened. As I said, he kept us from, he protected us. In fact he knew where we were going every moment. Even if he was not at home and my brothers were going out to play it would be in the confines of this area no where else. No where walking around or playing around. They had to stay right in these areas which was a sort of protection. I' ; ve had some experiences later on in life. Then as a child, because my father was a type of person that welcomed ministers even White ministers to come to the house, missionaries. So, the contact that we had with Whites was you could say positive so to speak. When we got in the real world (Laughing). HUNTLEY: It' ; s a different story. WILSON: It' ; s a different story then. HUNTLEY: Now, I know during any time in the history of this country that there is always a lot of pressure on Black men or Black boys. Were your brothers, did your brothers ever have any difficulty that say a girl would not have? I think that many times boys would venture a little bit further than girls. Was that a problem in your family? WILSON: I don' ; t think it was a problem. As I said our father was the center of everything for us. He was the one that was there. Now my mom was always there but our dad is the one that you can say my brothers worshiped my father. Not only was he stern but he was very kind and loving. So, they knew not to venture out too much and do too much. He would get on us now. If he had to pull the belt out he would pull it out, but very seldom did he get it out. So, like I said in my house it was understood that everybody had to go to college. It was never spoken but you' ; re going. HUNTLEY: Did your mother work outside the home? WILSON: After my father died she did. After dad died, as I told you she taught school before she married. Some principals at the church, some members of the church got her on the continuous supply list and she worked doing that for years. Then someone got her work up at Alabama A & ; M. That' ; s where she retired. HUNTLEY: Did your father work other than as a minister? WILSON: Only thing U1at he ever did. He preached here, there, everywhere. HUNTLEY: Now, being really right downtown. You live in downtown, your church is downtown. You were in close proximity physically anyway with many of the activities that were taking place particularly with, well, let' ; s say in 1960, ' ; 61. 1961 for instance the Freedom Rides took place. WILSON: Ok. HUNTLEY: Were you all aware? WILSON: We were aware, but you see at that time we were not living here. See, dad died in 1960, March and we had moved down to Smithfield. HUNTLEY: I see. WILSON: We were not here. We were not in this proximity but we were very well aware of what was going on. HUNTLEY: Right. In ' ; 63 of course. WILSON: Yes, we were here. HUNTLEY: The year of the mass demonstrations took place. And you were probably a freshman at Miles. WILSON: No, I had gone to Tuskegee in ' ; 62 after I finished Parker. I came home during the summer of ' ; 63. That' ; s when all of that started taking place. Of course at that time the only one of us at home were my baby sister and myself. My mother was just so afraid. She said, " ; Pleasedon' ; t go down there." ; She was afraid we were going to get killed, you know. Which was understandable. HUNTLEY: So, you were a freshman at Tuskegee? WILSON: I was a freshman at Tuskegee first and then when I came home for the summer I started out at Miles in the following year. HUNTLEY: Where were you? Were you at Tuskegee in April and May of ' ; 63? WILSON: No, no, I was here. HUNTLEY: You were here then. WILSON: No, April and May I was there. I was at Tuskegee because we didn' ; t come home until June. HUNTLEY: So, the demonstrations had already taken place by time you got home. WILSON: Yes, they had already taken place. HUNTLEY: There were demonstrations in Tuskegee as well. WILSON: Oh, yes, there were. In the downtown area. It was very, everything was very alive. You were aware of what was going on. We were young but we knew what was going on. HUNTLEY: How was the transition? What was the transition like from Parker to Tuskegee? WILSON: For me, I missed being at home. That was my first time being away from home. By me not being at home I didn' ; t do well with my lessons. I didn' ; t do well at all. So, my mom said ok. Of course they wouldn' ; t let me come back in. So she said no, I think I' ; ll just let her stay here. I think my mother and I had become so close. See after om father died. We had brothers in the military. One brother at [inaudible] and everybody just kind of went there separate ways. My sister up in Kentucky, Ann and my baby brother Oscar were, I know you are familiar with the Friends, the Quakers Fellowship Program. They were in that. Ms. Maple Margaret Murphy got them in that when they were like in 10th grade at Parker. So, they were gone. They were in high schools up North. HUNTLEY: Where did they go? WILSON: I can' ; t think of the name of the high school. My sister went to [inaudible] and my brother finished Princeton. HUNTLEY: Did they finish high school up there? WILSON: They finished high school up there. HUNTLEY: In what state? WILSON: My brother was in New York and my sister was still in Kentucky I believe in and around the Kentucky area. HUNTLEY: They both were associated with the program? WILSON: They were with the Friends. In fact they were recruiting here during that time and Ms. Murphy let them have their name. They came to the house and interviewed my mom. It was real exciting. It was good. It had its negative and it' ; s positive. They were leaving home. But my mother being in the situation that she was in she had all these children to raise, honey, you know. I think in her mind she was thinking, thank you God for sending me some help. Of course they got scholarships to college. Their grades always remained A' ; s. They got straight A' ; s all the way through high school and college. So, it was painful on one end but you could see the end result on the other end. HUNTLEY: Right. I know that you said that your mother didn' ; t want you involved in the movement because she was deathly afraid. WILSON: I could be involved in anything else but not going down to the marches with the hoses or the dogs or going down to the University of Alabama, the police. Anything like that she said you will get hurt. So, being at that time you say, yes mother and you did what she said. I did work for SCLC while I was at Miles. I did some work during the summer for them. HUNTLEY: What did you do for them? WILSON: I was up in Huntsville and they came recruiting out there to get college students to work during the summer. We stayed at Dr. John Cashian' ; s house. He was a dentist up there. We stayed at Dr. Cashian' ; s house. What we did we went to a designated place everyday and tutored. I taught reading and math to students I know that would not have had a chance. As I look back on that I say oh, I' ; m glad I did that. HUNTLEY: So, you did that one year? WILSON: It was one summer while I was at Miles. It was just that one summer. I didn' ; t go to summer school that summer. So, I used that summer to go up there. HUNTLEY: What did you major in? WILSON: My major out at Miles was, I have a sociology major with a history and education minor. So, I teach, right now I do history and geography. I teach that. HUNTLEY: Now, as the activities developed at Miles because I know Miles students were involved down here as well. WILSON: Yes. HUNTLEY: What was happening on campus? WILSON: All the time. Dr. Lucius Pitts was our president and he was in with everything. We were always rallying and campaigning for something. Stokey Carmichael came on campus one day. Just spoke openly on the campus. Just all kinds of people. I think Angela Davis came, Angela Davis and I are the same age. She was always so active and always has been. It was just open. It was just open. It was a marvelous experience for me. HUNTLEY: Did that experience have any impact upon how you would view your surroundings? Was there any change in the way that you had seen your surroundings earlier versus what it would be a little bit later based upon the activities that were going on? WILSON: I think it just added to it. I found that many of my friends that I know of quite well. All of us were raised up at the same time in Birmingham. Many of us are still bitter about what was going on and what' ; s going on now. I' ; m bitter but it' ; s not to the point where I can' ; t do anything about it. Do you understand? I' ; m still angry. HUNTLEY: What are you angry about? WILSON: I' ; m angry with the way I was treated. That we were treated. That we were denied access. That' ; s what I' ; m angry about. Right across this park was an elementary school. I can' ; t think of the name of it right now but I believe it was private. HUNTLEY: Finley. WILSON: We could go to the park and play but couldn' ; t go over there. My dad would say, " ; It' ; s While." ; Right down further was Powell, Powell Elementary. So, I' ; m angry about being denied, no you can' ; t. My experiences at Lincoln and Parker and Miles, honey, you can' ; t pay for it because they just. .. and you know back in those times there was a strong sense of community. Our father was like the man (Laughing) in this whole area even far and beyond he was well known. Even up al Parker, R. C. Johnson was the principal then and he was well known. When he walked the halls (whispering) [inaudible). That' ; s the way it was and the sense of the community. So, you had that protectiveness and that love and that caring. All the time out on the peripheral you knew how far you could venture out. That' ; s what' ; s been painful coming up as a child. HUNTLEY: Right. You know there' ; s always been discussion about where the mass meetings were held, and that Sixteenth Street initially did not allow meetings to be held there. Was that ever discussed in your family? WILSON: Never discussed. We never heard it discussed. But I do recall as I was telling the person that called me yesterday. I do recall that Dr. King did come here and speak. It was after the bus boycott. That was in ' ; 5 5. That had become successful. Then after that of course my dad being the minister I know he was instrumental in getting him here. We would bear our father say from time to time something is going to happen to bring the city together. But of course not knowing and he was a visionary person. He was very strong and spiritual. A lot of things he could foresee. He would [inaudible]. This would be said sometimes around the breakfast table, around the dinner table. He wouldn' ; t say anything. Another painful thing since we' ; re talking about those kinds of things. HUNTLEY: Sure. WILSON: You know how 11 goes straight through University of Alabama. I don' ; t know whether it still does now. That' ; s the route we would take going to Mississippi to visit our grandparents and our cousins. HUNTLEY: Right. WILSON: And he would always say, we would ask him why can' ; t we go there. He would say, " ; Because you' ; re the wrong color." ; He said, " ; One day you will, and it won' ; t be long." ; Well, here again we had no idea what he meant, you know being children. I never will forget one experience we were driving through Jackson, Mississippi. My father had a lot, there' ; s a big family of them, huge family. He had three or four that lived right in Jackson. He did a lot of his preaching there. We were driving through downtown and these police pulled us over. So, my father said, " ; Don' ; t say anything." ; So, none of us said anything. It made us so angry because we hadn' ; t done anything. The fact that my father, the church had bought him one of these big nine passenger DeSota' ; s if you remember those. A big car coming through town, you know. He was very polite, " ; Yes, officer, may I help you?" ; " ; Yeah, boy, where are ya' ; ll going?" ; He said, " ; Well, this is my wife' ; s home and I was raised up down here." ; We could just see my father cringing but at the same time protecting us from this, you know. He said, " ; Oh, why are you coming through Jackson?" ; He said, " ; I' ; m going to visit my sisters and brothers." ; Then he said their name. " ; Oh, yeah, we kmow them." ; So, things, demeaning things like that. Very demeaning. HUNTLEY: It has some staying power with any child. WILSON: It has stayed with me, all of it has stayed. HUNTLEY: How have you dealt with that? In terms of your being angry. This is modem day, 1998. WILSON: I think I' ; ve dealt with it in fact that I' ; ve stayed with the church. Even though when my father died we moved down and my brothers and sisters moved away I was still here at the church taking part, playing for. In fact, when I was 13 years old though. This was before dad died. One of his pastor friends, Dr. P. Washington Coats, he and a few had left Tabernacle which was on 25th Street at that time and they bad moved around here to Southern Bell Funeral Home. They would let us use the chapel. My dad came in one Sunday and said, " ; Baby," ; He explained what was going on. " ; They need somebody to play for them." ; I said, " ; Ok." ; You didn' ; t take it. There was no lip going on. You did what your daddy said. I said, " ; Ok." ; He said, " ; Every Sunday you go over there." ; I said, " ; Yes sir." ; That' ; s where I went. That was an experience for me. That was quite an experience. I stayed there until I was 19 or 20 years old. I think it was the church. I was very bitter. It' ; s like your average 18, 19, 20-year-old. Even when I started teaching I was still bitter. HUNTLEY: What did you do after Miles? WILSON: After Miles I started teaching, right away. I started out at McElwain School and I started out at the time. It' ; s out in the Crestwood area, Crestline. HUNTLEY: That was a White school? WILSON: All White. It was during the time when the courts had demanded this crossover. You had to desegregate your faculty first. Me and another teacher we were the first and only two Blacks out there. HUNTLEY: What was that experience like? WILSON: It was traumatic because we were not, you would think persons, you know professionals, you know we were all teachers would be treated well but we were not. We were isolated and ignored more than anything else. We were not included. We were the first of course. Of course the children and the parents treated us well because we were teaching their children. They treated us with dignity. HUNTLEY: The faculty? WILSON: The faculty, no. It was a thing of, in fact we had to bind or be together. I didn' ; t know her and she didn' ; t know me until we met. She has children my age, has sons my age. We had to get real close, right away. We bonded instantly for protection. As I look back on it of course the only Blacks out there were the ones in the kitchen or maintenance. They had never seen any Blacks in that position. They had been programmed, socialized and just could not accept it. I was very angry about that. HUNTLEY: You mean Blacks that were in the ... WILSON: No, the Whites I' ; m talking about. HUNTLEY: So, there were not Blacks even in the kitchen? WILSON: Yes, there were Blacks in the kitchen but they had a White dietician over them. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. WILSON: Then you had your regular maintenance workers. HUNTLEY: What year did you go out there? WILSON: I went out there in September of ' ; 68. HUNTLEY: You were the first two Black teachers out there? WILSON: We were the first. At that time that was a strong Jewish community. In fact the parents would invite us to their Bar mitzvah to Temple Emanuel or whatever they had going on we would be involved in it. HUNTLEY: So, the community accepted you. WILSON: The community accepted us because we were teaching their children. We didn' ; t have any, nothing. Nobody to come and picket, none of that. It was the cold isolation that we received from the faculty. HUNTLEY: What was the stance of the principal? WILSON: I think the principal felt like he was in a position, Mr. Mann, he' ; s dead now. He was in a position where he was cultured and wanted us as much as he was permitted to do so. If you understand what I mean. He would always come to my room. I remember once when Dr. Brown, I think it was Dr. Charles Brown started making the little videos about Black history month, Black history week, whatever. I got one of those kits and I was determined to show it to the kids. So, I went to the principal and said, " ; Mr. Mann, I have something I want you to see and I do want to get your permission to show it." ; He said, " ; Ok, come on." ; He looked at the film strip and said, " ; Ok, show it." ; So, he was in a position to where he couldn' ; t be to far either way. HUNTLEY: But you didn' ; t have any, you didn' ; t get any flack from parents as a result of showing that? WILSON: Oh, no. Our flack came from the faculty. HUNTLEY: From the faculty. WILSON: Yes. Nothing was said to us verbally but actions. I mean when you walk pass a person and you speak and you don' ; t speak then that' ; s a slap, you know. HUNTLEY: How long were you at McElwain? WILSON: I was at McElwain for three years. Then I went to Kingston Elementary. No, I was at McElwain for about five years. Then went to Kingston had seventh and eighth grade. Mr. Jones was the principal out there then. He taught us math at Parker while we were there. Then when I left Kingston. HUNTLEY: Kingston was a Black school? WILSON: All B lack. That was a different experience too because I never had that, you know. I had all Whites and all Blacks. I felt like I was doing more. HUNTLEY: How did you come about making that transfer? Did you request it? WILSON: I didn' ; t request it. The state department al that time was trying to get everybody on top with their certifications. See I have certification for secondary which I think starts maybe at the seventh grade and goes on up. When I was at McElwain I was teaching some fifth and sixth grade social studies. I' ; m thinking that' ; s what it was. It could have been something else. I don' ; t know. HUNTLEY: How long were you at Kingston? WILSON: I was at Kingston one year. After I left Kingston the board became involved in a tutoring program. No, I need to back up some for you first. I started teaching with the board in January ' ; 68 but I started at McElwain that September. I started with the board in January ' ; 68 being a tutor teacher. There were several of us and we would go from school to school. Of course the person over the program tried to get me in the vicinity of there where we were living in Smithfield. Even though I didn' ; t have a car I had people to come and pick me up. You know I had access to buses. I went to Bush, Graymont Elementary School, at that time Mr. Tortorice was the principal there then. So, I was in that up until the school closed. I was a tutor teacher. It was a federally funded program. They paid us just like first year teachers. Then I went to McElwain. HUNTLEY: So, how long have you been in the school system? WILSON: I' ; ve been in the school system as of January this year, 31 years. HUNTLEY: And where are you now? WILSON: Huffman High School. HUNTLEY: So, you made the transition to high school. Over that 30-year period how has the system changed? How has education changed? WILSON: (Laughing) Well, we know education has changed. That we know. Well, see at first I started with the White students and then had Black students. Then I went to a situation where I had Black and White students together. When I first started out being a teacher I had more say so about how I was to control my class. How I was to teach them. But doing all these different programs coming in, changing over of administration. I think I' ; ve seen about five or six super intendents since I' ; ve been here. It could be more, I don' ; t know. I met all of them personally. There has been more of a target on you justifying yourself. There' ; s a better word for it I can' ; t say it right now, but you know what it is. You have to back up everything that you do. HUNTLEY: You have to prove yourself. WILSON: You have to prove yourself and that' ; s paperwork to me. That' ; s unnecessary. I am a trained professional taught by the best. We call her Mom Bliss out at Miles College and Ms. Ida Smith who taught me all my secondary courses. She' ; s still living. I was taught by the best and this is demeaning. You have such little time to teach and your hands are tied when it comes to discipline. And of course discipline can take many forms. I don' ; t always believe in the spanking but I think they should go somewhere else for that, but I think I should control that in my room and students should not have the power to talk back to me. It has changed. HUNTLEY: You say that is what is happening today. WILSON: This is happening today and there is less focus on what students are learning. Well, now we' ; re going to the block scheduling this year. I think the concept behind that is if students have more time in your class, this is what I' ; m hearing. I' ; m going to a workshop tomorrow there' ; s supposed to explain the whole thing. What I' ; m hearing is that if students have more time in your class you can have more time to work with them. That' ; s not it because I' ; ll have 30 to 35 kids in my class it' ; s going to still, I still have to manually pass out sheets, do a little lecture because they don' ; t understand that. It goes over their heads. And of course, our students have changed. Society has changed, home environment, family. All of that has impacted education, very much so. It has. HUNTLEY: If there were anything, if you had the ability to change any portion of your life going back through it. What would you change? WILSON: Any portion of my life? HUNTLEY: Any portion of your life and the way you have been impacted upon by other things. Not necessarily saying that there wouldn' ; t be segregation, but all other things remain the same. What would you do different than you did? WILSON: I think looking back on it when I first went to McElwain School. I was so angry. I was so angry and hostile that I became ill. I developed spasms of the colon. Of course the doctor I had said a lot of times that steams from the way you ' ; re raised up, you' ; re expectations in your family. I said, " ; No." ; But looking at our history how can I not be angry? I just, and I mean I became very vocal after a while. After we had taught at school that school for maybe a year or maybe before that. We started developing strategies to deal with them. One strategy was and I did not create it my co-worker did. She said, " ; Carolyn, when you go to the office don' ; t smile and don' ; t speak. Get your things out of your box, sign your name, get your coffee and come out." ; Just out of the blue she did it. I said it was God giving her division. She said, " ; I' ; m going to do the same thing." ; She got there that morning and did the same thing. See they stand around in the office and if you spoke it was grunt or it was nothing at all. Honey, by the end of that day I bet you a number of them down on my floor found a reason to come to my door for something. I' ; m not kidding. They found a reason to come to my door for something. Of course I started, I was angry. I said, ' ; ' ; Yes, what do you want?" ; " ; Oh, Ms. Beard, just. . ." ; " ; I' ; ll see about it later and let me get through with my class." ; " ; You can come by later if you have time." ; I became very belligerent about it. It just came out. It was a cleansing process for me too. Then after the doctor believe it or not the doctor that I had was the White doctor that treated my father with his nervous condition. He would tell me, honey, you have to find a way to deal with those folks out there. Those were his words. He' ; s dead and gone now. I said, " ; What do you mean?" ; " ; You have to find a way to deal with it or I' ; m going to put you on disability." ; He said because the condition I was developing would lead to other conditions. Of course I went through the whole battery of the physical examination. They did everything. You know how they turn you upside down. It' ; s a nervous condition. HUNTLEY: It was something you had. WILSON: So, when I went back. I was out sick a lo t that first year teaching. I went back and my coworker told me she said, " ; Listen, we' ; ve got to work." ; We used that strategy. HUNTLEY: We' ; ve covered a lot of territory. WILSON: Have we? HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to conclude with? WILSON: I think the most and of course we had a lot of marvelous experiences being raised up in the church with our father being over us. Not only over us but everybody. Of course he had his bad times there too. That' ; s understood. But out of, first of all being raised up by wonderful loving parents who loved us very much. Then being exposed to loving teachers who were concerned about our welfare and who taught us well. Then by me being exposed to teaching, my teaching career. I think my next big thing was meeting my husband and having my baby. That was a plus in my life. We' ; re working on 21 years. My daughter' ; s beading to college in the next two weeks. It' ; s added so much to me. People ask me often why are you always bubbly. I said, look, I was the first of a kind in my family. I was showered with affection and love and that' ; s all I give out. It' ; s natural as breathing air to me and drinking water. It' ; s not anything I perform or put on to do. It' ; s very natural. I found as a gift from God, He has made it possible that people are attracted to me. It' ; s not my own gift it' ; s something He put in me to do and I love that about myself. I guess you can tell. (Laughing) My husband and I know you don' ; t have much time but I must tell you how I met my husband. We were having a church picnic out at Harrison Park with Sixteenth Street. I was there playing. I was about 33, 34 at that time. So, I went out and one of my girlfriends said " ; Don' ; t go out to the picnic come here." ; I said, " ; No, I promised some of the ladies I was coming to show them how to play bridge." ; Well, like a lot of single girls you have this boyfriend and that boyfriend. I was at a low at that time anyway. I went and I was standing out in the park by myself, just standing there deciding should I stay or go home. So, these two little girls came up to me and pulled on me. They said, " ; Hey, Ms. Beard." ; I said, " ; What are ya' ; ll doing out here?" ; They said, " ; Well, our dad brought us out here." ; Well, I taught them over at Davis School when it was a school. See I was on another program under Dr. Fountain called Ease of Humanities and I worked in that for a year. Me and Ruth Krull, oh several of us. Anyway, I had taught them during the program over there. I said, " ; Oh." ; They said, " ; Where are you fixing to go?" ; I said, " ; I' ; m going home." ; They said, " ; No, come meet our daddy." ; I said, " ; Ok." ; So, I walked up and some men were coming out. So, I walked up to him and I was about to shake his hand and said, " ; How are you doing? My name is.. " ; He said, " ; I already know who you are." ; I said, " ; You do?" ; He said, " ; Yes, your Carolyn Beard." ; And he ran down the whole shebang about me. Here I am wondering who told this man about me. I said, " ; Oh, ok." ; He said, " ; You don' ; t remember but you played for my baptismal one Sunday morning at church. Rev. Crutchet called you." ; I said, " ; Yeah. Was it you?" ; He said, " ; It was me and two other kids got baptized. I said, " ; I vaguely remember it but I didn' ; t see you." ; He said, " ; I know." ; I said, " ; I didn' ; t know you were a member here." ; He said, " ; Well, yes and I' ; m on the usher board and I usher when the men need me." ; I said, " ; Ok." ; So, we left from there and went to start playing cards. So, I was playing with Henry Blankenship and he would always call me big sister and I would call him little brother. So we were playing cards. My husband now, he was picking at me. He said, " ; I thought you could play cards." ; I said, " ; I can." ; We started picking at each other. He said, " ; Well, tomorrow I' ; m going to come down to the piano and speak to you." ; I said, " ; Ok." ; Then I left. Thought no more about it. He came down to the piano said, " ; Hey Ms. Beard." ; I said, " ; Hey how are you doing?" ; Fine, bye and I left, you know. So, my mind wasn' ; t on that. So, three weeks later Henry Blankenship got us together. We went out that night, that was like on a Monday and we went out. We went to Henry' ; s house out in Pratt City. He said, " ; I just knew ya' ; ll were going to get together." ; He had called me that morning telling me that he likes you. I said, " ; You can give him my phone number." ; He said, " ; No because your phone number is private." ; So, he told him that she can have my number, so I called him that evening. So, we got together and we' ; ve been together ever since. HUNTLEY: 20 something years. WILSON: We met in ' ; 76 and got married in May of ' ; 78. HUNTLEY: ls that right? WILSON: I got to tell you something Rev. Prichard told me. He said one Sunday he came to his study and asked him who was the lady down there that plays and directs the choirs. He said, well, I have about three or four down there. He said, oh, no, this one is big and yellow and big pretty legs. She is gorgeous. So, he said, oh, you mean Carolyn. Rev. Prichard said, why do you ask? He said, that' ; s going to be my wife. It' ; s going to be your what. HUNTLEY: He had already made that decision. WILSON: He had already made it by just looking at me, watching me. So, sure enough Rev. Prichard said he watched them and sure enough he wouldn' ; t hanky panky around. He was just waiting to meet me. When I met him I was just so impressed. I said this is such a loving man. He is a very kind, hard-working, gentle, all the above. HUNTLEY: Not many folk can say that. WILSON: They find the least little thing to get mad about. HUNTLEY: Well, I certainly appreciate your time. WILSON: I' ; ve enjoyed it very much. HUNTLEY: Maybe we' ; ll do it again sometime. WILSON: That' ; ll be fine. HUNTLEY: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CBWilson1998.xml CBWilson1998.xml
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Carolyn Beard Wilson
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Carolyn Beard Wilson discusses growing up in Sixteenth Street Baptist Church as the Pastor's daughter before attending Miles College and teaching in Birmingham. She details experiencing the process of school desegregation from an educator's perspective.
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19980813W
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Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham
Friends, Quakers Fellowship Program
Davis, Angela Y. (Angela Yvonne), 1944-
Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.)
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1998-08-13
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video
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8d4d7b6a49f06ee93558a5eadf4971f2
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
Interviewee
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Carolyn Cunningham
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CCunningham1996.xml
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Ku Klux Klan (1915- )
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5.4 March 6, 1996 Carolyn Cunningham Interviewed on March 6, 1996 19960306C 0:43:15 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Raines Whittaker Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.). Board of Education Southern University and A & ; M College Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) Carolyn Cunningham Horace Huntley Oral History 1:|16(3)|40(8)|55(1)|77(5)|91(4)|105(1)|120(3)|137(9)|148(7)|167(4)|177(12)|192(8)|205(11)|219(5)|235(17)|250(7)|271(6)|285(5)|297(8)|310(2)|326(11)|339(10)|348(9)|368(1)|383(6)|391(16)|402(10)|411(5)|425(4)|434(4)|455(12)|469(1)|485(2)|498(1)|508(7)|517(4)|532(9)|545(7)|552(2)|559(15)|571(15)|584(10) 0 https://youtu.be/2DPrsoO8CH4 YouTube video English 19 Introduction to Interview African American history ; African American women 33.516200, -86.813870 18 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute http://www.bcri.org Website for the BCRI 36 Family Background I would like to start by asking some general questions about your family. Brief overview of her family. African American history ; Birmingham (Ala.) 236 Elementary School Where did you start elementary school? She attended Kingston Elementary and had memorable teachers. African Americans--Education (Elementary) ; Elementary school teachers 320 High School and Extracurricular Activities After Kingston, where did you go? While in high school, she also performed and was a girl scout. Our Lady of Fatima Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) https://www.bhamwiki.com/w/Ullman_High_School Information about Ullman High School 418 Community Life during High School What community did you live in when you went to Ullman? Early experience of segregated communities. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Segregation--United States 573 Race Relations in Childhood Did you ever have any good relations with any of the white children that lived near you? A childhood experience of passive racism. African Americans--Segregation ; Race relations in the United States ; Racism 716 Occupations of her Grandparents So your grandmother worked as a domestic? Her grandmother was a domestic and her grandfather was in the military. African American families ; African American soldiers 761 First College Semester After you finished Ullman High School, what did you do? She completed one semester at Xavier University in New Orleans. Xavier University (New Orleans, La.) African American college students ; African American soldiers 29.964097, -90.107667 17 Xavier University of Louisiana 860 Music School in Chicago So after the first semester, you left Xavier? She spent over a year in Chicago while attending music school and working. African American college students ; African American women musicians ; Chicago (Ill.) 980 Return to College in the South And then you returned to start at Southern? She attended and graduated from Southern University. M College ; Southern University and A & ; amp African American college students ; America's historically Black colleges and universities ; Baton Rouge (La.) 30.526282, -91.192597 17 Southern University and A& ; M College 1082 Teaching at Ullman High School After you graduated from Southern, what did you do? She returned to Birmingham and taught at Ullman High School. African American educators African American women teachers ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1189 Memories of the Civil Rights Movement In 1961, the year of the Freedom Riders, in 1963 the year of selective buying campaigns. She attended civil rights meetings with other teachers. A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights African Americans--Civil rights--History ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Civil rights movement ; Freedom Rides, 1961 1280 Reasons for Involvement in Civil Rights Why did you decide to get involved? She became involved in civil rights after experiencing racism as a child. Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) African Americans--Southern States ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1418 Civil Rights Demonstrations and Meetings You mentioned that you were involved in demonstrations. She participated in civil rights demonstrations in Louisiana and Alabama. M College ; Southern University and A & ; amp African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Baton Rouge (La.)--History ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights demonstrations 1572 Different Reasons for Joining Struggles in the Past vs. Present Why do you think there is a difference then than now? She doesn't perceive the same interest in political involvement now. Civic and political education African Americans--Civil rights--History ; Civil rights movement 1740 Perspective of Demonstrations and their Memorialization You mentioned that you witnessed the water hoses and dogs. She reflects on a memorial statue commemorating struggle against police violence. African Americans--Civil rights--History ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Civil rights movement https://www.bhamwiki.com/w/Kelly_Ingram_Park Kelly Ingram Park in Birmingham, AL. 2031 Social Service Work in New York After you left Birmingham, what did you do in New York? While attending Columbia University, she worked as a social worker dealing with child abuse. African American graduate students ; Columbia University--Graduate students Child abuse--United States ; New York (City). Department of Social Services. Department of Services 2166 Joining the Military You mentioned that you were 34 years old and you decided to go into the military? She was in the military for 18 years. African American soldiers ; New York (State). Army National Guard ; United States. Army Reserve 2272 Discharge from the Military Why 18? Why not 20? She was discharged from the military for failing a physical exam. African American soldiers ; Discrimination in the military 2459 Return to Birmingham So you returned to Birmingham very recently. She teaches again in Birmingham as well as selling property part-time. Birmingham (Ala.). Board of Education African American women teachers ; Birmingham (Ala.) 2499 Concluding Thoughts Well, Ms. Cunningham I just want to ask this final question. She believes that hard work will result in rewards. African American Christians ; African American women Video Carolyn Cunningham discusses returning to Birmingham and getting involved with the Movement after attending a year of music school in Chicago. She taught in Birmingham as a young woman before serving in the military in New York. She then returned to Birmingham once more to teach. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Carolyn Cunningham for the Birmingham Civil Rights lnstitute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College and today is March 6, 1996. Thank you, Mrs. Cunningham for taking time out of your schedule to come and sit with us today. CUNNINGHAM: You are quite welcome. HUNTLEY: I would like to start by asking some general questions about your family . Were your parents native to Birmingham? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. Well, my mother wasn' ; t born in Birmingham. My mother was born in Philadelphia. My father was born in Birmingham. But, they both lived in Birmingham for the greater part of their young lives. They both attended Parker High School although I do believe my mother attended Ullman High when it became a high school, years ago. And, so they were part of the Birmingham way of doing things. HUNTLEY: You were born in Birmingham? CUNNINGHAM: I was indeed. HUNTLEY: Do you have brothers and sisters? CUNNINGHAM: I have step brothers and sisters and most of them are still living with the exception of two. They do not live here in Birmingham. I' ; m the only one in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: And you have recently returned to Birmingham? CUNNINGHAM: I just recently returned in October of last year. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have? CUNNINGHAM: Oh, I have a number. My father and stepmother had ten in all. And, my stepmother and father had two. HUNTLEY: That' ; s a big family? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. I lived mostly with my grandmother. My grandparents reared me and brought me up as a single child. HUNTLEY: Both your parents finished high school at Parker? CUNNINGHAM: Yes, they did. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did they do? CUNNINGHAM: My father went from high school to the military and that' ; s where he remained for about 30 years, with an exception of a little time when he decided he wanted to get out of the military. He did and was at the point where he said he really liked the military and he went back in. That' ; s where he stayed. My mother, on the other hand, started a family with my stepfather and she later, in life, went back to college. She attended City University in New York City. She also has about four courses toward her doctorate degree. She is a very smart person. After having all the children she had, she decided she still wanted to go to college. She said to me that she wasn' ; t going to let me out pass her or out do her. I don' ; t have my doctorate, but she almost has hers and I' ; m very proud of her. HUNTLEY: So she is still ahead of the game? CUNNINGHAM: Yes, she is a very talented person. HUNTLEY: So, you were raised by your grandmother? CUNNINGHAM: My maternal grandmother and grandfather. And, also with my father' ; s mother and grandfather and grandmother and my father. So I had all of those people caring for me and taking care of me. HUNTLEY: Were you the only child in the household? CUNNINGHAM: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: Where did you start elementary school? CUNNINGHAM: I started elementary school at Kingston Elementary. I lived in Avondale at the time, and in order to get to Kingston, it was a matter of, I don' ; t know if you' ; re familiar with that area, but at the time there was a lumber yard. We had to travel across the railroad tracks, we called it " ; the bottom." ; Through " ; the bottom" ; , that was the lumber yard and there was the school on the other side. So, it was a matter of a little bit of travel every morning, but it was a wonderful school. HUNTLEY: Is there anything that stands out in your mind about your days at Kingston? CUNNINGHAM: Oh, yes. It was a wonderful school. The teachers were just the best. I just believe that my foundation as far as an education is concerned, started at that school. I had one teacher who will remain in my mind forever, her name is Mrs. Little. She taught me all of the poetry that I know. We had to learn poems overnight. The Gettysburg Address. There wasn' ; t a discussion about " ; Well, it' ; s overnight, you can' ; t learn it." ; She always said you can. We memorized overnight. We did everything she said. And, I just became, well everybody says I brag a little, but I just became the smartest because of her. HUNTLEY: After Kingston, where did you go? CUNNINGHAM: Because Kingston only went to the 6th grade, I went to Thomas Elementary School and, from there Ullman High School, where I graduated in 1955. HUNTLEY: Were you active in extracurricular activities? CUNNINGHAM: Sure. I was rather, I guess a little shy at the time. But, I could always perform. Sometimes they say a shy person might not be able to talk to maybe one person or two people, but they could always speak to an audience. I was a singer. I danced and recited poetry in the community. I was a girl scout it seems like forever. I was a member of Our Lady of Fatima Catholic Church at that time it was over on 6th Avenue, Avenue F, they called it. I went to girl scout camp. The Johnsons used to run the girl scout camp. HUNTLEY: In Bessemer? CUNNINGHAM: No. This one was in Zion City and I can' ; t think of the name of it. But, anyway I used to go there every summer and Mrs. Johnson was over it at that time. HUNTLEY: So, you were quite busy then? CUNNINGHAM: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in when you went to Ullman? CUNNINGHAM: I lived in Titusville with my great-grandparents right there on Center Way. There was a cemetery there. It has now been moved and that' ; s where Our Lady of Fatima Church and the school have been built. HUNTLEY: That was a cemetery where the school is now? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. It was an old cemetery. So, I lived there with my great-grandparents and in Avondale with my grandparents. So, there were times when I lived with, it seems, everybody. HUNTLEY: How would you describe your community? CUNNINGHAM: Well Titusville was the kind of community that seemed to have been growing at that time. I recall when I was a little girl, where the projects are, there were no projects at that time. There was just a pasture . My friends and I used to walk all the way from Center Way to the pasture. HUNTLEY: Is it Elyton or Loveman' ; s Village? CUNNINGHAM: Loveman' ; s Village. We would go there and play in the pasture with the cows and all. Of course, we would get spanked because that was not where we were supposed to go, but I think everybody enjoyed going there. That' ; s what that type of community was. There was one Black store and one Italian store in that community. Both are now no longer there. And, of course, the cleaners was on Avenue F, run by a Black person. Avondale was a little bit different because there, in order to get to Thomas Elementary School, my friends and I had to travel to a White community. I remember that at that time we weren' ; t supposed to do that. We weren' ; t supposed to go through their community and they weren' ; t supposed to go through our community. So, the thing is, that when we did that, we would run very quickly through and they would throw rocks at us. I don' ; t think anybody was ever hurt. It was just that something that happened. And, when they went through our community, we would do the same thing to them. So, that' ; s as far as that kind of conflict went. HUNTLEY: They were adjacent communities? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you ever have any good relations with any of the White children that lived near you? CUNNINGHAM: Well, we didn' ; t have any good relationship with the ones that lived in that little area. I think it was the cotton mill right there on First Avenue and, the people who lived in that area, I believed worked in the cotton mill. I don' ; t recall anyone having a good relationship with them. But, on my street there was a store, an Italian store, and the Italian family had three children, as I recall and we all played together until all of us started attending high school. I recall that I went downtown on a streetcar one day and I saw one of the little Italian girls, I spoke to her and she didn' ; t speak to me. Well, that just hurt my feelings. I remember I went home and I cried. I said, " ; Well, why did she do that?" ; Because, where I lived, my grandparents had a big, old house. It was a nice house right there on 42nd Street in Avondale, right up from Hominy Street Church. It was a nice area. Nice, big old houses. We had a very long front porch. So, on Sundays, or during the rainy season we would all sit on that porch and play, the Italian kids and I. Well, anyway my grandmother said, " ; Well, this is the way that is going to be. She just might not ever say anything to you, but don' ; t feel terrible because I think she still likes you, this is just the way the south is." ; I rather understood it. I never saw her again. My grandmother did domestic work and I recall when she took me to work with her, the White lady' ; s daughter always wanted me to play with her terrible toys, the dirty ones, the ones she should have put in the garbage and I wouldn' ; t do it because I had very nice toys. I told my grandmother and she started letting me bring my own toys. So, that relationship wasn' ; t the best. HUNTLEY: So your grandmother worked as a domestic? CUNNINGHAM: Yes, she did. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your grandfather do? CUNNINGHAM: My grandfather was in the military in his younger life. He has always been a very good cook, so he was the captain' ; s cook. During that time the captain always had his private cook, so that' ; s what my grandfather did. After he was discharged from the military, he worked for Merita Bakery right there on First Avenue and that' ; s where he worked until he retired. So my grandparents always worked. I don' ; t know, my grandmother was such a budgeter. She was able to keep everything together. HUNTLEY: After you finished Ullman High School, what did you do? CUNNINGHAM: When I finished Ullman High School, I was 16 years old and I went off to Xavier University in New Orleans. I remained there for a semester, and because I was 16, not really knowing what I wanted to do, well, I won' ; t say I didn' ; t know what I wanted to do, but I didn' ; t know the best thing to do, because I wanted to join the military. And, at 16 years one of your parents had to sign for you. Now, at the time, I took the test and everything to join the Navy and I just needed that signature from my father, who was overseas at the time. He said, " ; No, you can' ; t join the military. You must go to college." ; That was a very good decision he made. HUNTLEY: Why did you want to join the military? CUNNINGHAM: I had been brought up loving the military. My father bought me the first WAC uniform as a little girl. I had a little jeep that I used to ride down the sidewalk. I just loved the military because of him. Well, I couldn' ; t join the military at that time, but years later, at about 34 years of age, I joined the military. They still had the WAC. There were two of us who where older than the kids in basic training. HUNTLEY: So after the first semeste,r you left Xavier? CUNNINGHAM: Yes, I did. HUNTLEY: Then, what did you do? CUNNINGHAM: I left Xavier and still wanting to follow some other dreams, I wanted to be a singer. I went to live with my aunt in Chicago. I attended music school there and I appeared on some amateur programs. HUNTLEY: Did you ever appear on Ted Max Amateur Hour? CUNNINGHAM: No, I didn' ; t. I wish I had. But, I guess I could have been a singer, but I had to work, too, because my parents weren' ; t rich. So, the first job I got I really disliked it. HUNTLEY: What was that? CUNNINGHAM: Well, I had to get up very early in the morning and go to a hospital to work in the dietary kitchen. I do remember that the hours were long. I wasn' ; t familiar with all of the deserts, because you know they use those conveyor belts. It wasn' ; t my type of thing to do. My grandfather had already said I wouldn' ; t like the job. So I had to call him back. I was in Chicago and I called him here in Birmingham and he answered the phone. He said, " ; Well, you don' ; t like that job, do you?" ; I said, " ; No, I' ; ve got to go to college." ; I had to beg my grandparents to send me back to college. My grandmother said, " ; Well, we' ; re not wealthy, this is the last straw. You either go again, you must stay." ; And I stayed. This time they let me choose what college. Before they wanted me to go to a catholic college because I' ; m catholic, but I really wanted to go to Southern University. They let me attend there. HUNTLEY: So, how long did you stay in Chicago? CUNNINGHAM: I stayed in Chicago a year and half or two years. HUNTLEY: And then you returned to started Southern? CUNNINGHAM: Yes, I went to Southern University and I graduated. HUNTLEY: What was your area? CUNNINGHAM: Speech and English. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Southern? CUNNINGHAM: I do have a vivid picture of the way it used to be. It is not that way now. It is beautiful. But, when I first attended Southern, there were no paved roads on campus. The one thing that I do remember is walking in all of that mud during the raining season. It was nice because we had a small dormitory and it was safe. When I look back on colleges now, and the way ours were then, I can say that we lived in a safe environment, because we had everybody there. The doors were locked and we weren' ; t allowed to leave after 11:00 p.m. We had to be in at 11:00. We had to begin studying at 7:00 p.m., so there were rules and regulations. It took an act of Congress for us to get off campus at night. HUNTLEY: Was that a good experience? Did you enjoy your time you spent at Southern? CUNNINGHAM: Yes, I did. Of course, Southern is situated right near at the Mississippi River and the campus sits on the edge. HUNTLEY: Have you been back? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. I returned twice. HUNTLEY: After you graduated from Southern, what did you do? CUNNINGHAM: After graduating from Southern I came back to Birmingham and Dr. George C. Bell was still the principal of Ullman High School. I remember my grandmother received a phone call and she was told that there was a job for me if I wanted it, because it was in my area at Ullman High School. I remember telling Mr. Bell I really didn' ; t want the job because I was going to California to live with my father because he had promised to buy me a car. That tells you how spoiled I was. I really didn' ; t want the job and I hung the phone up. Well, my grandmother took the phone and said, " ; She will talk to you later. She will call you back." ; After hanging up the phone she said, " ; Well, you really will have to take that job. You need to work. So, you must call him back and let him know that you will take that job." ; And, I did as she said. So, needless to say, I bought my own car, which was better and I got that job and I' ; ve been working ever since. HUNTLEY: How long were you at Ullman? When was this? CUNNINGHAM: This was in the 60s. This was 1961. I was there until the later part of ' ; 63. And, then there were times, like I said, when I came back to Birmingham and I worked. But I taught drama and English there at Ullman when I first returned. HUNTLEY: In 1961, the year of the Freedom Riders, in 1963 the year of selective buying campaigns. Do you remember anything about those two events that were taking place? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. During that time they were still meeting. HUNTLEY: The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights? CUNNINGHAM: Yes, at the motel. That famous motel that is now a nursing home. HUNTLEY: It was A. G. Gaston' ; s Motel at the time. CUNNINGHAM: At the time I never saw anything written down to say that teachers couldn' ; t participate in marches and demonstrations, but it was somewhat of an unwritten type of proclamation that you were not supposed to do those kinds of things. I remember when I first started going to the meetings, I really had to sneak. I had to say that, but it' ; s true. Later, I became more bold and I think most of the teachers who participated in all of that had a more bolder spirit. I remember going with some of the other teachers at Ullman to the meetings. I remember the dogs and the hose pipes, the water that was turned on the marchers in the park. I was here for all of that. HUNTLEY: Why did you decided to get involved? CUNNINGHAM: I wanted to get involved because of the fact that when I was a child, growing up in Birmingham, I remember the Klu Klux Klan. I lived right there in Avondale. I remember that the Klan used to wait until midnight or so, to drive through our neighborhood. You could hear people yelling turn out the lights. My grandparents would turn the lights out and we would get very, very quiet. As a matter of fact, everybody on our street. The street was just very quiet and they would ride up and down the street. I always thought that their headquarters was there at the park in Woodlawn, that' ; s what we always thought. So, I remember all of that. I remember when we couldn' ; t drink at the fountains, so I had a reason to want to get involved, because to me, it was a challenge. To me things would get better if I got involved. I had to work, so there was so much that I could do. But, as I think back, I think everybody' ; s effort helped the Movement. So, at the time, I wasn' ; t in the forefront and, even now, I have a tendency sometimes to do a lot in the background unless somebody nudges me to get into the forefront. Now, if I' ; m asked to do something, I will do it. But otherwise, I' ; ll be back there doing something. So I wasn' ; t as verbal or as seen as much as I could be now, because of my job as a teacher. HUNTLEY: Were you in the classroom during the 1963 demonstrations? CUNNINGHAM: No. I wasn' ; t teaching at that particular time. I was here during the on start of everything, the meetings leading up to that. HUNTLEY: You were not here in April or May of 1963 when the children got involved? CUNNINGHAM: No. HUNTLEY: Had you left Birmingham by then? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. HUNTLEY: You mentioned that you were involved in demonstrations. Tell me about that. What demonstrations was this? CUNNINGHAM: It was a lunch counter sit-ins in Louisiana. When I was at Southern University, we had the sit-ins at that time. The school was closed several days because students were getting involved. We were told that if we got involved in any marches, any sit-ins that we would be sent home. And, some students were sent home. I wasn' ; t one of the ones who was sent home. But, we didn' ; t have classes for awhile. So, I was involved in that. When I came here, I was involved in the mass meetings that we had and the marches and so, I was around when the dogs were sicked on everyone. HUNTLEY: So you attended meetings at 16th Street Baptist? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you give me a description of what the mass meetings were liked? CUNNINGHAM: Well, as I recall they were spirited. There were speakers there. We, as an audience was asked to speak if we wanted. Everyone had a chance to voice their opinion about what they would do to help end the strife that we were facing. There were people who helped to prepare the food and there was singing. I just remember the togetherness of the people at that time and the challenges that they faced knowing how the south was at that time. That, even before the bombing, we could have all been killed at the church. A sniper could have been outside. But, I never got the feeling that people were that much afraid. I just think that they saw that something needed to be done and they did it. Now that I think about things , I' ; m not to sure if we would have that cohesive spirit now. I don' ; t know. I' ; ve been thinking about that. Because there was that cohesion among the adults and the young people. The young people were more active. HUNTLEY: Why do you think there is a difference then than now? CUNNINGHAM: Well, as I said, during that time, we really had something to fight for. We really have something to fight for now, as I see it. I' ; m wondering if others see it. If there are people who don' ; t see that prejudice still exists. That, I have travelled here and been around the United States and I' ; ve seen prejudice. I' ; ve seen where people of color have been the last hired and the first fired, or laid off. Not only, color, but religion plays a part, even as a black person. Sometimes you might be too light skinned or you might be too dark, you never know. I see a lot to still fight for, but I' ; m not sure. I haven' ; t taken a poll. I don' ; t know if the majority of the people see that there is still something to fight for. And, that' ; s why I say I don' ; t know if we have the cohesiveness. Our children are really interested in the material things in life. They are interested in the clothes with names on the back and gym shoes and boom boxes and the things that are material, wherein we were interested in an education. We saw that as a means of getting out of a terrible situation, getting a good job. I' ; m not to sure, as I talk to young people, if they see getting an education as a way out of anything and I' ; m not putting down sports, but I see that some of them feel that that' ; s a way of getting out of their situation. But, when I ask them about attending college, spending time in the library, starting their own library with the money that they are making, it seems to me if a child has a job that some money should be spent for a book for his or her own library. I still see education as a way out. But, I have a question. Am I the only one who sees that as a way out? Or, do the children really see that as a way out. HUNTLEY: Do you have children? CUNNINGHAM: I don' ; t. I' ; ve taught so many I just feel I have so many. HUNTLEY: You mentioned that you witnessed the water hoses and dogs, did that mean that you participated in those demonstrations or did you see that from afar? CUNNINGHAM: No. I was standing right there in the park and I saw all of that occurring. I wasn' ; t one of the ones who was hit by the water, but I saw it with my own eyes. And, the only time that I really became frightened was when I saw the statue and it reminded me, the statue that was just presented days ago. The statue with the teenager and the police with the dog. That reminded me of the fear, but at the time, I think it was the challenge and the fact that something had to be accomplished, that there wasn' ; t that kind of fear. But, yet, when you look at the statue, there should have been fear. It was just too much of a challenging effort. HUNTLEY: There has been some criticism of the placement of that statue in the park. What are your ideas in relationship to the statue being placed in the park and if it should have been or not? CUNNINGHAM: I don' ; t have a negative feeling about it. I feel that it is symbolic of what happened. HUNTLEY: So, you were there. Does it depict sort of the spirit of what took place at that particular time? CUNNINGHAM: Yes, it does. I think it' ; s in the right place. HUNTLEY: So you would be supportive? CUNNINGHAM: Yes, I would support it. HUNTLEY: I know there are people who were involved with the Fraternal Order of Police, for instance, that suggested that it could have a negative impact upon how the community today look at policemen. CUNNINGHAM: Perhaps so. But, it is symbolic of what took place during that time. I remember leaving the south being afraid of police. When I first went to New York City, I really was afraid of police and I was an older person, because of what had happened. HUNTLEY: This was around ' ; 63? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. And, being an older person I shouldn' ; t have been afraid of police, but I was. Now, after having stayed in New York, my feelings changed. There are precincts there. You get to know the police. The police walked through the community, so the fear left. I just think the people won' ; t really fear the police because of the statue, they might fear the police of their own experiences. Maybe their present day experiences with the police. I don' ; t think the statue would have anything to do with it. HUNTLEY: Well, I don' ; t think that he was suggesting that people would fear the police. In fact, it was just the opposite. That people would not respect the police as a result of the image it projects. Were there others in your family that participated? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. I have a cousin who played an active role as a teenager. She was one of the ones who was put in jail. So she has a vivid memory of sitting on the floor and how the jail cell looked and how they were treated, having to go without necessities. HUNTLEY: Although you had left Ullman as a teacher, at that time, if you had been there in April and May of 1963, would you have encouraged your students to get involved or what would have been your stance on your student' ; s involvement in the demonstrations? CUNNINGHAM: I would encourage students or anyone. However, in the back of mind, I know that I would give them some kind of insight into the danger involved. But, it was an effort that anyone could have stopped the students from participating in the struggle. They would have found a way anyway. And, I applaud that in them. HUNTLEY: After you left Birmingham, what did you do in New York? CUNNINGHAM: When I left here, I started working for the Department of Social Services and I have to admit that I didn' ; t know anything about welfare. There was so much I didn' ; t know. I really didn' ; t know that we were poor. And, the reason being is that I wasn' ; t ever told that we were poor. There wasn' ; t anyone in our house that said on a daily basis, " ; Well, we' ; re poor." ; And I find that if you don' ; t say that to children, sometimes they won' ; t even think about it. They' ; ll just go on with their life. And, when I left here, I didn' ; t know about welfare. There was an ad in the paper for case workers to work for the City of New York for social services. I applied and instead of being placed in social services for welfare, I was placed with children in a day care center. So, I worked for the Division of Day Care, but it was still under the auspices of the New York City Department of Social Services. I worked for them for about 12 years. As a matter of fact, I was able to attend graduate school and still work for the Department of Social Services there at the Division of Day Care. But, while in graduate school, attending Columbia University Teacher' ; s College, I worked at night for the state' ; s child abuse registry. My office was the office that accepted all of the child abuse cases coming into the City of New York. I could probably write several books about what happens to children in New York City and all over, child abuse all over, because it' ; s the same. Maybe not the same numbers, but the same kind of abuse that happens to children on the night and on the weekend and I' ; ve gone out on cases. So, I did that for a long time, also. HUNTLEY: You mentioned that you were 34 years old and you decided to go into the military? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. HUNTLEY: Why did you make that decision? CUNNINGHAM: It was a dream come true. I always wanted to join and I couldn' ; t and I forgot about it. After working for the city, then I had worked for the American Red Cross. I had all those jobs and really forgot about joining the military. And, to be honest, I saw the ad in the paper and it said, " ; Uncle Sam Wants You." ; I said, " ; Does he still want me at 34 years old?" ; I called the recruiter and I didn' ; t tell him how old I was. He said, " ; Well, come to the office." ; I went. I took the test and I joined the 42nd Infantry Division, which is called the Rainbow Division in New York City. And, the Rainbow Division has a long military history, and I' ; m proud to say that I was a part of that. And, that' ; s where I learned to be a soldier and I' ; m glad to have been a WAC, too. HUNTLEY: How long were you in the military? CUNNINGHAM: I was in the Army National Guard first. Afterwards I joined the reserve. In all, I stayed in the military 18 years. Eighteen adventurous, good and rewarding years. I never thought I actually could become a soldier because I had a background in education and not getting dirty and all of that, but I loved it. HUNTLEY: Why 18? Why not 20? CUNNINGHAM: Now, that would be another show. I spent 18 years in the military and on a weekend I went to my unit and had to re-enlist on that particular weekend, but I also had a PT test. And the stipulation said that if you do not past the PT test, you will no longer be a part of the military. Now, this occurred in Novembe.r Prior to that I had been practicing everything I had to do and on a rainy day, I passed that PT test and I was tested by one of the officers in my unit. I was soaking wet, passed the PT test and I got a call from the commander saying that my captain should not have given me the test and he disavowed the test. So, in November I had to take it again. In Novembe,r I did my very best, but I missed four sit-ups. I did 18 push-ups. I did 22 sit-ups and I did my two mile run in 23 minutes. And, at the end of the day, my captain said, " ; Sgt. Cunningham, you did not pass your PT test and you' ; ve been a good soldier, but we have to discharge you." ; So, I was discharged with an honorable discharge, but feeling very terrible that it had been a part of my life for so long and that' ; s all I received. I remember driving down the 1- 5 , crying and all of that. And that' ; s what happened. Four sit-ups, that' ; s all I needed. I wasn' ; t overweight or anything. HUNTLEY: Do you think that the decision was made based upon your being a woman, being black or something else? CUNNINGHAM: The decision was made on the basis of the fact that I wasn' ; t a male. As a female, I didn' ; t have a family. I think as a female, if I had a family, I think that would have meant something. But, I was a female without a husband and children, black and that was it. And, I did not belong to the good old boys club and that was it. On my discharge it says that I am not physically fit, but I know that I am, but that' ; s what it says. So, that' ; s the way it goes. HUNTLEY: So you' ; ve returned to Birmingham very recently. What are you doing? CUNNINGHAM: At the moment, I am subbing for the Birmingham Board of Education and also for the Catholic Diocese, I have been subbing for Our Lady of Fatima Catholic School and also the Midfield School District. I also sell property out at Elmwood Cemetery on a part-time basis. HUNTLEY: Well, Ms. Cunningham I just want to ask this final question. Is there anything that you would like to convey to whoever may view this video, you have the opportunity to do that now. CUNNINGHAM: I' ; d like to convey the thought that hard work is worth it. That, there are rewards in hard work. I' ; ve had to work hard. I haven' ; t regretted a minute of it. And, I' ; m looking forward to working hard for many years in the future. I plan to be around for a long time, because I haven' ; t finished everything that I have to do, and I know that hard work is a part of it. Also, that we are never alone because Jesus Christ is right there with us at all times and I know that he is with me. So he just keeps me going and he keeps me smiling and that' ; s important to me. HUNTLEY: You have a beautiful smile. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you. HUNTLEY: Thank you, Ms. Cunningham for coming out and being with us today. We certainly appreciate it. CUNNINGHAM: You are quite welcome, it' ; s been a pleasure. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CCunningham1996.xml CCunningham1996.xml
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Carolyn Cunningham
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Carolyn Cunningham discusses returning to Birmingham and getting involved with the Movement after attending a year of music school in Chicago. She taught in Birmingham as a young woman before serving in the military in New York. She then returned to Birmingham once more to teach.
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19960306C
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Birmingham (Ala.). Board of Education
Southern University and A & M College
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1996-03-06
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video
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https://bcriohp.org/files/original/6dbbfca72b3dd5f4c059f313c54b8124.jpg
0d62f2361969ffab2d0fe35a283052b4
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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Carolyn McKinstry
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CMcKinstry1998.xml
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included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
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Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.)
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5.4 April 23, 1998 Carolyn McKinstry Interviewed on April 23, 1998 19980423M 1:23:56 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Abernathy, Ralph, 1926-1990 Fisk University Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) Carolyn McKinstry Horace Huntley Video 1:|11(10)|29(4)|58(5)|70(6)|86(2)|103(1)|116(9)|131(11)|144(14)|163(6)|174(12)|190(12)|209(14)|220(15)|235(4)|248(16)|264(15)|287(10)|303(1)|329(4)|361(11)|373(12)|387(17)|414(8)|426(15)|447(12)|459(4)|478(6)|494(8)|508(4)|519(18)|541(7)|553(14)|572(3)|585(11)|599(7)|610(5)|628(1)|641(4)|654(7)|672(17)|687(1)|707(4)|721(16)|734(8)|747(17)|767(1)|778(4)|797(4)|811(6)|826(13)|840(10)|852(6)|865(1)|877(3)|890(6)|903(5)|915(7)|931(7)|941(10)|955(12)|970(8)|981(5)|998(6)|1013(2)|1023(11)|1038(3)|1049(14)|1062(6)|1077(16)|1089(8)|1102(9)|1114(3)|1123(4)|1137(14)|1156(6)|1169(4)|1181(9)|1190(5) 0 https://youtu.be/aJ0Z77M_PAA YouTube video English 13 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Ms. Carolyn McKinstry for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute’s Oral History Project. I’m Dr. Horace Huntley, we’re presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is April 23, 1998. I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule, in fact, you’ve just driven back from Atlanta to come and sit and talk to me today about Birmingham and the movement. Welcome to the Institute. 33.5161, -86.8145 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 59 Family Background That’s right and you’ve been so generous with that for all kinds of people from all over the world. Let me just ask you about your parents. Were your parents from Birmingham? First of all, were you born in Birmingham? Carolyn McKinstry talks about her family background being born in Clanton, Alabama then moving to Birmingham shortly there after. education ; family ; teacher American Cast Iron Pipe Company ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Chilton County (Ala.) ; Clanton (Ala.) ; Hooper City Elementary (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Huffman High School (Huffman, Ala.) ; Lewis Elementary (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Pratt Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) 206 Community Background Growing up in ACIPCO what kind of community was ACIPCO at the time? Carolyn McKinstry explains what it was like to grow up in the ACIPCO community. African American neighborhoods ; Family ; Friends ; Industrial Work ; Teacher American Cast Iron Pipe Company ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Lewis, Jessie ; Stockham Valves and Fittings (Firm) ; Tennessee Coal, Iron, and Railroad Company 568 Early Education - Finley Avenue Elementary What elementary school did you attend? Carolyn McKinstry discusses her memories from Finley Avenue Elementary school in Birmingham, Alabama. Contest ; Spelling bees ; Teacher-student relationships Finley Avenue Elementary (Birmingham, Ala.) 751 Early Education - Parker High School Where did you go when you left Finley Avenue? Carolyn McKinstry explains about her having a great time at Parker High School. African American schools ; Extracurricular activities Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 982 Being Inspired by the Freedom Riders Now, 1961 was the year the Freedom Riders came through. 1962 was the year the Miles College students developed the selective buying campaign downtown. Of course 1963 was the year of the demonstrations. Were you at all active in the demonstrations in 1963? Carolyn McKinstry talks about seeing the Freedom Riders on TV and deciding on wanting to participate on her own freedom ride. African Americans--Civil rights ; Bus ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Segregation in transportation Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Miles Community College 1391 Clerical Work at 16th Street Baptist Church What then was the first time you remember being involved in the movement. You know in April and May of ‘63 was when the demonstrations took place. Were you actively involved prior to then? By attending the mass meetings or . . . When did you get involved? Carolyn McKinstry discusses her time as a clerical worker for the 16th Street Baptist church, and having people such as Dr. King and Ralph Abernathy come out to speak. Church ; Clerical work ; Inspirational moments 16th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Abernathy, Ralph, 1926-1990 ; Jackson, Jesse, 1941- ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 1725 Parker High School Demonstration Do you remember the first demonstration that you took part in? The first mass demonstration. Carolyn McKinstry discusses the first demonstration she was involved in with Parker High School. African Americans--Civil rights ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Protest movements ; Teacher-student relationships Clanton (Ala.) ; Kelly Ingram Park (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 2040 Kelly Ingram Park Demonstration Tell me a little about the occurrence of the demonstration downtown in Kelly Ingram Park. Carolyn McKinstry speaks about her time marching through Kelly Ingram Park in protest and how she was hit with the water hose, as well as her parents explaining not to go back. African Americans--Civil rights ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Fire hose ; Police brutality--United States ; Police dogs ; Protest movements ; Student demonstration Kelly Ingram Park (Birmingham, Ala.) 2434 Reception at School After Kelly Ingram Park Demonstration When you returned to school what was the reception like? Carolyn McKinstry explains the reactions of students and teachers after the Kelly Ingram demonstration. finger printed ; jail ; police mistreatment ; student demostrations Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 2578 Recollection of March on Washington Do you remember what you were doing when the march on Washington took place? Carolyn McKinstry recounts her watching the March on Washington in her parents living room live. Cable television ; Live broadcast King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968. I have a dream ; March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) 2668 Recollection of 16th Street Church Bombing September 15, 1963. Tell me what that morning was like. You’re at home and getting ready to go to church. Tell me what do you remember about what took place just prior to the fiasco. Carolyn McKinstry recollects the morning of the 16th Street Church Bombing from her point of view. Bomb threats ; Dead ; Explosion zone ; Hysteria ; Missing children ; Traumatic shock 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Mountain Brook (Ala.) ; United States. Act to Award Posthumously a Congressional Gold Medal to Addie Mae Collins, Denise McNair, Carole Robertson, and Cynthia Wesley to Commemorate the Lives They Lost 50 Years Ago in the Bombing of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church, where These 4 Little Black Girls' Ultimate Sacrifice Served as a Catalyst for the Civil Rights Movement 17 Carolyn Mckinstry recollects the morning of the 16th Street Church Bombing from her point of view. 3351 Returning to Church after Bombing You being the secretary in the church, how did this event impact upon you going back into the church? Not just for services but for whatever else you may have been doing. Carolyn McKinstry recounts going back to church fearful after bombing. Church ; Fear ; Funerals ; Terrorism ; Traumatic shock 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Bombings--Alabama 3596 Returning to School After Church Bombing Do you remember when you went back to school? What was the atmosphere like? Carolyn McKinstry speaks about going back to school in a somber environment and losing a bit of her confidence. Publishing ; school ; Therapeutic schools ; Writing 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Presidents--Assassination--United States--History 3894 College at Fisk University Did you enjoy Fisk as much as you did Parker? Carolyn McKinstry discusses her time at Fisk University, experiencing visitors from famous black artist to dealing with the death of Martin Luther King Jr. African American artists ; African American businesspeople ; African culture ; College ; Contemporary Black history Assassination ; Belafonte, Harry, 1927- ; Bevel, Nash Diane ; Black Panther Party ; Black Power Conferences ; Fisk University ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Nashville (Tenn.) ; Poitier, Sydney, 1927- 4150 Life After Fisk University What did you do after Fisk? Carolyn McKinstry talks about her life after Fisk University, getting married, having children and moving around a lot. AS-PTA (Organization) ; Changing times in education ; Children ; Family ; Financial Education ; Growing up ; Parenthood Atlanta (Ga.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham-Southern College ; Fisk University ; Nashville (Tenn.) ; North Birmingham (Ala.) ; Orlando (Fla.) ; United States Air Force ; Walt Disney World (Fla.) ; Warner Robins (Ga.) 5022 Interview Conclusion I want to thank you for all your time and all your wisdom because you obviously really set a tone that is really going to be important for the 21st Century. Thank you for coming. Oral History Carolyn McKinstry discusses getting involved in the Movement as early as eighth grade by doing clerical work at 16th Street Baptist Church where she saw Dr. King and Ralph Abernathy speak. She was the secretary there through the church bombing. McKinstry participated in various demonstrations before attending Fisk University. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Carolyn McKinstry for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I' ; m Dr. Horace Huntley, we' ; re presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is April 23, 1998. I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule, in fact, you' ; ve just driven back from Atlanta to come and sit and talk to me today about Birmingham and the movement. Welcome to the Institute. MCKINSTRY: Thank you, I appreciate the invitation. It' ; s always good to share the historical aspects of things that we lived through and are still living through. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right and you' ; ve been so generous with that for all kinds of people from all over the world. Let me just ask you about your parents. Were your parents from Birmingham? First of all, were you born in Birmingham? MCKINSTRY: I was born in Clanton, Alabama which is about 56 miles from here in Chilton County. I lived there until I was two years old and then my parents moved to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: How many siblings do you have? MCKINSTRY: I have four brothers and one sister. I' ; m in the middle, two boys older, two boys younger and then my sister is the baby. HUNTLEY: When your family moved to Birmingham what neighborhood did they move to? MCKINSTRY: We moved to, it' ; s called Aylesbury Community but it' ; s ACIPCO. It' ; s 16th Street and Finley Avenue but also known as Aylesbury Park, also known as ACIPCO. HUNTLEY: Then were you raised up in ACIPCO? MCKINSTRY: Yes. HUNTLEY: What about your parents' ; educational backgrounds? How much education did they have? MCKINSTRY: Both my parents taught school. My dad taught physics and chemistry. He had a master' ; s degree in that. He waited tables at night but taught school during the day. My mom had a Degree in elementary education. HUNTLEY: Where did they teach? MCKINSTRY: My father retired from Huffman High School. However, he was part of Parker when it still had the name Industrial High School. He taught there for many years under that name and then under the Parker name. Then under the Carver High School name and was subsequently moved to Huffman when the integration order came. HUNTLEY: So, he was one of the first teachers that went out to Huffman. MCKINSTRY: Right. HUNTLEY: I' ; m sure he had some interesting stories to tell about that. MCKINSTRY: He did, he did. HUNTLEY: And your mother, where did she teach? MCKINSTRY: My mom retired from Pratt Elementary School. Some of the schools that she taught, when she first came to Birmingham she was at Hooper City Elementary School which is not there anymore. She taught at Northside which is not there anymore. Actually Pratt is not there anymore either. She taught at Lewis Elementary and there is one other one in there somewhere, but she retired from Pratt. HUNTLEY: Growing up in ACIPCO what kind of community was ACIPCO at the time? MCKINSTRY: Well, I probably wouldn' ; t have seen it this way at that time, but it was probably a fairly middle-class neighborhood. We had quite a few professional people there. There were any number of teachers that lived on our street. In fact, my eighth-grade teacher lived on my street and my seventh grade teacher lived two streets behind me. So, you know it was quite common then to have your teachers or principal living close by. Also, one of probably two if I' ; ve got that right. During that time, we had two maybe Black CPA' ; s in the city of Birmingham and one of those lived directly across the street. Maurice Rouse one of our bondsmen during that time. We knew him because he owned the vending company too and we could sometime get old records from him. In fact, one of my brothers worked with him for a long time and when he would travel to the different little cities stocking the record machines, [inaudible] or whatever then he paid him to travel with him. So, we knew all these people quite well and they took quite an interest in what you did, particularly if you were doing well in things. HUNTLEY: Were there people that worked at ACIPCO, at the mill or the plant that lived in your general area? Now you were in Aylesbury. MCKINSTRY: Aylesbury Park. HUNTLEY: So, was that sort of an enclave of [inaudible]? MCKINSTRY: You know some of the people in my neighborhood during that time. Dr. Jessie Lewis lived directly behind me. Let' ; s see if I can think of some of them. Mr. Shortridge who they had a funeral home at that time was right on the corner. HUNTLEY: Very active in the movement. MCKINSTRY: Yes. Let' ; s see, Mr. Cromwell whose husband was the CPA and of course she was an art instructor. She had two boys that went on that American France program. On the back street there were a couple of other people that I' ; m trying to remember that you would know. But Jessie Lewis is who stands out. Let' ; s see if I can think a little bit further down. Most of the people in that immediate three or four block area were in fairly professional jobs. Now, probably about three blocks down Finley toward the Farmer' ; s Market where my elementary school was, where a lot of my classmates and friends lived. A lot of those children their parents worked at places like ACIPCO or TCI and I remember Stockham, several parents working at Stockham. During that time, I don' ; t know if you ever saw there were army barracks that lined. HUNTLEY: Yes, I vaguely remember that because I had some relatives that lived in that general area. MCKINSTRY: From the school to the Farmer' ; s Market there were these rows of army barracks. A lot of my friends lived in those and I had a couple of occasions where I went by after school and got a chance to see the inside. For the most part my mom didn' ; t let us visit or go inside anyone else' ; s home. It was just an interesting phenomenon. We thought the army barracks being there. You know there was a very strong sense in the school and the classroom of everybody in sync toward the same goal. There really was never. I' ; m not aware of any distinctions being made as far as where anybody worked. Whose parents did what? A couple of kids at the school their parents actually taught at the school. Each teacher, I guess the teachers at that time really understood that it really didn' ; t matter who your parents were to the real world. In the grand scope of things, you know we were all pretty much in the same boat and they understood that. HUNTLEY: You don' ; t think there were any advantages because one was middle class and one was from a working-class family in the school situation? Were there any distinctions between lighter skin children and dark skin children? MCKINSTRY: You know I honestly don' ; t think, I didn' ; t see that. I' ; m not saying that, that concept didn' ; t exist that there were . . . there may have been at some point a little preferential treatment. I honestly didn' ; t see it. We had children in my classes that were on welfare, but we didn' ; t know it. They received free lunches, but we didn' ; t know it because the teachers never made you aware of who was doing what. It just seemed to me that they made, the teachers I had, made a very fair attempt sometimes it might be the fairer skinned children that needed extra help or it might be a child who' ; s parent was a teacher or it might be one of those children living in the army barracks. We had during that time we had rows. Row number one obviously was the smarter row and if you were in that row and everybody finished their work then you were obliged to help the children in say row number six or seven until they came along. So, in that sense you felt helpful, you felt useful, you felt smart. I know I did, but I was permitted to work in the office. I did, in elementary school, I did a lot of things that probably would have been things that other children would have done at a later age. I think that' ; s why I ended up working at the church as the clerk. I started doing that in the eighth grade and all the way through high school I was the person who kept the attendance records and the money and so forth. HUNTLEY: What elementary school did you attend? MCKINSTRY: Finley Avenue Elementary School. HUNTLEY: Now Finley Avenue was . . . how near was that to your home? MCKINSTRY: I walked to school every day. It was probably in terms of blocks, city blocks, three blocks. I could walk home just average pace about seven minutes. HUNTLEY: What stands out in your mind most about Finley Avenue? The school, I mean. MCKINSTRY: Well, a couple of things. I started, when I started school it was in January. We were still doing the half years. I was in the last class to start in January. I was six years old but I was always a very bright student, so I didn' ; t have to complete the first grade. They just sent me right onto the second grade. That' ; s kind of how I got caught up with the rest of the kids. Claude Wesley, no, James Goodson, Dr. Goodson, was my principal grades one through six. Grades seven and eight was Claude Wesley. When I was in the eighth grade there, you know I participated in Dr. A. G. Gaston' ; s annual spelling contest. That contest was held locally as a city contest. Then a county wide and then the winners from the counties competed on a state level. I of course went on to win on the state level. So, probably during the time that I was at Finley that was, I was an honor student but that was probably my most outstanding accomplishment I guess. HUNTLEY: So, you had some real good vibes about your experiences in elementary school? MCKINSTRY: I really did. My teachers made me feel that I was capable. They didn' ; t spoil you. You know there were many times when we would be practicing for the spelling contest. They would rehearse me sometimes from lunch time 12:00 to 4:00. As a child you know I just really got sick of it. There would be days I cried and didn' ; t want to do it anymore. They would just sort of ignore it. They wouldn' ; t pamper me, and they wouldn' ; t say, " ; We understand." ; They would say, " ; Why don' ; t you go down to the cafeteria and get a coke." ; I thought that was really special because we didn' ; t have machines when I was in elementary school. A coke was real treat. You couldn' ; t even bring money and buy a coke. So, they would do little things like that for me. I felt very grounded. I felt very capable and very comfortable with their direction. I felt that no matter whatever else that I may have seen in their personalities that ultimately my best interest was being served by what they were trying to do. Somehow we all felt that I think. They gave us a strong sense of pride. I had teachers that would send students back home. When they came in, in the morning and it appeared that you had not combed your hair or that shirt looked wrinkled or whatever. They would send them back home and tell your mom that I said, " ; To give you a clean shirt," ; or whatever. Those types of things we need to do for children, you know. HUNTLEY: Where did you go when you left Finley Avenue? MCKINSTRY: I went to Parker High School. A. H. Parker High School. HUNTLEY: What was that like? Parker has been titled as being the largest Negro school in the world. You leave little Finley Elementary School and go to Parker High School. What was that transition like? MCKINSTRY: Well, I loved it. I have to say, you know I don' ; t find to many environments that I don' ; t enjoy but I enjoyed it quite a bit. It was a great source of inspiration to be there. There were so many students there and some of them were very accomplished students. The instructors there were just as caring and appeared to what me to be as capable as Finley Avenue did. So, in fact I was invited to participate in a lot of things that I chose not to. Oratorical, they tried for four years to get me to do that and I just had personal reasons why I didn' ; t want to. When I came in the ninth grade one of the first things I remember with in the first two months they had this honor society induction. I remember I was so moved by it because we were in the auditorium and they had darkened the lights and it was very quite. Then there was this very light precession and students marched in holding a candle. It was a very humble, spiritual type ceremony. They went up on the stage and they stood holding the candles. Then at some point somebody came out and read this announcement about how you qualify to be in it, and they said we are about to tap new students to be inducted. And those students may have had some idea who they were, but I don' ; t know for sure. So, it was really great to watch them to go out in the audience and find a sister or a brother and take their hands, come on you' ; ve earned this, come go with me and they would hand them a candle. So, one of my first determinations when I entered Parker in the first two months, I decided that next year I would be one of those students being led up to the stage. There were a lot of things to aspire to that the environment was really wholesome. We had a lot of extracurricular activities, business club, teachers club, science club. Of course, there' ; s the athletic things, the majorettes. I think I may have been among one of the first female students to take the mechanical drawing class from Mr. Hawkins. At that time, you know girls couldn' ; t go over to the building where the men were but I convinced Mr. Hawkins that I needed to be in that class. He went to bat on our behalf. HUNTLEY: So, you then . . . you really enjoyed your experience at Parker? MCKINSTRY: I loved the school. Our principal, R. C. Johnson who we all called " ; Big Red" ; was . . . looked big and mean, you know. He would see you in the hall, Little Maull, that was my maiden name, what are you doing in this hall and do you have a pass. I can remember a couple of times when I didn' ; t have a pass but was allowed to escape. So that my have been some of the preferential treatment you were talking about. But I did, I loved the school. I can' ; t think of very many teachers at all. There were a couple of teachers that were light less and we tended to play tricks on them, but it wasn' ; t a malicious type of thing, you know. It wasn' ; t an obvious show of dislike for them. We just sort of played a few tricks on them. It was a wonderful environment. HUNTLEY: Now, 1961 was the year the Freedom Riders came through. 1962 was the year the Miles College students developed the selective buying campaign downtown. Of course, 1963 was the year of the demonstrations. Were you at all active in the demonstrations in 1963? MCKINSTRY: Yes. HUNTLEY: How did you get involved? What precipitated your involvement? MCKINSTRY: Something I saw on television. I was sitting at home one day and you know we had never, my parents had never really allowed us to ride the bus. There were a lot of things my parents didn' ; t tell us. Rather than saying you can' ; t they conveniently dropped us off or picked us up rather than have us get on a bus and have someone tell us that we could sit up front. So, this particular day I was watching something on TV and it was when some of these people had first come to town. That' ; s when I became aware of the signs that were on the seats that you moved around. HUNTLEY: You said some of these people had just come to town. Who were you referring to? MCKINSTRY: Freedom Riders, I guess. People that had come to town to assist in the integration efforts. HUNTLEY: Right. MCKINSTRY: So, I just sort of sat there and decided within myself, I didn' ; t discuss it with anybody. I said, " ; I' ; m going to ride this bus. I' ; m going to find out and see. I' ; m not moving that sign. If I sit down, I' ; m going to stay there." ; I just started thinking these things in my head. So, I had to have an excuse to go downtown. I had to have permission. I told my mom one day, I said, " ; You know, I need to learn how to start taking care of bills and taking care of things. Don' ; t you need me to pay this bill for you?" ; She had an account at Parisians. So, I said, " ; Let me go by and pay it." ; I made it appear to be an educational experience. So, she said, " ; Ok, but you come right home." ; I said, " ; I' ; m just going to pay the bill and then I' ; ll come right home." ; I did pay the bill but when I got on the bus, probably, fortunately, there wasn' ; t enough people riding the bus that day for it to be an issue where I was sitting. Actually, the bus driver seemed somewhat tolerant of us because I think I probably got on the bus with a little bit of a chip on my shoulder and a look at him that sort of dared him to say anything about where I sat. HUNTLEY: Were the boards still on the bus at that time? MCKINSTRY: The boards were there. In fact, there were people when I was sitting there that came up to the front of the bus and paid their money and then went around to the second door to get on the bus, to board the bus. I was trying to figure that out too. That was one of those things where my parents didn' ; t sit down and say well, this is the way it is. So, that was something that was a little bit surprising to me that they would pay their money in the front and then walk around to the back door to get on the bus. HUNTLEY: Although the bus was not crowded? MCKINSTRY: No. If there were White people sitting in the front. This is the way it appeared. If there was nobody in the front, White, they could pay their money and walk on board the bus. If there were White sitting in the front they paid their money and then walked back around to the second door and entered and went straight to the back. HUNTLEY: So, you sat in front of the board? MCKINSTRY: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were there any reactions? MCKINSTRY: No. HUNTLEY: No one reacted? MCKINSTRY: No one reacted. The bus driver had a look. That' ; s why I think he was somewhat tolerant. I think he suspected what was going on in my mind. I probably had a look. He did not say anything. Where I lived from downtown the number of bus stops between there and my home was probably about six. So, we' ; re not talking about a lot of time, maybe about ten minutes. HUNTLEY: No one in back said anything? MCKINSTRY: No. HUNTLEY: So, you just defied the whole custom. How did that make you feel? MCKINSTRY: Well, actually I was a little nervous, a little frightened when I first boarded the bus. You know as I sat there I was trying to understand. I didn' ; t have a good understanding of why it was this way. HUNTLEY: You didn' ; t ride the bus a lot in other words? MCKINSTRY: No, I' ; m trying to think. The only other bus I really had ridden, we had a school bus that picked us up every morning to go to Parker High School, but it was called a " ; special." ; HUNTLEY: The " ; special," ; right. MCKINSTRY: It was ten cents to ride. HUNTLEY: And you sat any place that you want. MCKINSTRY: Right and it was just children like me, other school children. So, I didn' ; t have a real sense of what the social background and the history, the historical aspects of why this was the way it was. HUNTLEY: Do you remember what grade you were in? MCKINSTRY: Ninth grade. HUNTLEY: You were in ninth grade. So, this was around 1961. Did you ever have any discussion with anybody about that experience? I mean during that particular time. With your friends, or did you ever tell your mother about it? MCKINSTRY: I didn' ; t discuss . . . my father said no to everything. I didn' ; t give him an opportunity to tell me no for any of this. They found out about most of what I had done after the fact. My mother pretty much let my dad take the lead with the yes or the no' ; s. They were, I understood later why they were . . . both of them taught school, they had four boys that they wanted to live to be a male adult. So, a lot of what they did was done with the idea of protecting us. I rarely discussed . . . my dad was very stern, very strict. I rarely discussed . . . I was sort of one of those people that I would think about it and weigh it and would make my own decision. I' ; m pretty much that way today. If I decided to do it, it didn' ; t matter if I was the only one doing it. I had just made that decision so that particular experience along with hearing a lot of the motivational speeches at the church and just things that started happening during that time. I think it sort of propelled me toward the movement. I personally felt very, very inspired and motivated when I would listen to the speeches at the church. Some of the things that they would say about why we were doing the marching . . . what we were trying to accomplish. It just seemed like for a certain select group of Black people there was a higher goal. Maybe it was the same higher goal for my parents, but they couldn' ; t accomplish it in the same way as these people. So, I wanted to be part of that. It just felt exciting, it felt good, it felt right, and I wanted to be part of that. So, I felt like pretty much if I had discussed it at home that they were going to tell me no, so I didn' ; t. HUNTLEY: Were you all members of Sixteenth Street? MCKINSTRY: Yes, we' ; ve been at Sixteenth Street since I was two. We moved to Birmingham and my mom joined that church immediately. HUNTLEY: What then was the first time you remember being involved in the movement. You know in April and May of ' ; 63 was when the demonstrations took place. Were you actively involved prior to then? By attending the mass meetings or . . . When did you get involved? MCKINSTRY: I attended as many mass meetings as I could. I just loved the atmosphere. HUNTLEY: Starting when though? MCKINSTRY: Starting probably in terms of what year or . . . HUNTLEY: Right, was it during the demonstrations or before the demonstrations of ' ; 63? MCKINSTRY: Well, I think what happened with me doing the clerical work since grade eight. HUNTLEY: Oh, ok. MCKINSTRY: I was there, and I was aware a lot of times of things that would be going on. Plus, I worked in the summer. When school was out I would go there and stay all day in the summer, answer the phones and do different things. So, I became aware of people coming in and out of our church. I became aware of things that were being planned, the meetings, the speeches. It was commonplace to see some of these people come through. So, I became very accustomed and very comfortable with talking with these people. I just found it inspiring. You know I really liked being around them. Again, it appeared that they had a message, a higher goal. My dad' ; s message was education which was the same message we got in school. Of course, most students don' ; t see the importance of that quite the way they should at that age. Maybe it was because of what we could feel when you went to these meetings and they sang the songs and they gave the speeches and even gave you the opportunity to stand and say or ask questions if you needed to. It made you feel part of it. The singing was just motivational. It just made you ready to do something. HUNTLEY: So, you were there. Were your brothers involved at the same level that you were or any of your siblings? What about your parents, were they involved? MCKINSTRY: My two younger brothers were in the church when it was bombed and aside from that I may have been the lone ranger as far as . . . I was always told that I was the stubborn one in the house. I was the one that had a mind of their own. HUNTLEY: You attended the mass meetings? MCKINSTRY: Yes. HUNTLEY: How would you describe a mass meeting? MCKINSTRY: Well, they were always very crowded, always a lot of people there. I don' ; t remember, when I say people more people adults than students, but I just remember that there were always a lot of people. I remember quite a few students, but I don' ; t remember numbers. I remember that they would start with usually a song of some sort. Then we would get a prayer. I had an occasion to hear Dr. King speak many times. I had an occasion to hear Jessie Jackson to speak. Bevil out of Nashville, I think. And a couple of other people that I can' ; t put a name with their face right now. Rev. Abernathy, I remember him being present. Dr. King was usually saved for last. The younger speakers, Bevil and Jackson, sort of helped kind of get people in and grouped. Them along with some of the females that really had nice voices would start the singing and kind of get people revved up and ready to receive whatever he had to say. Then we kind of got an instructional pep talk. I remember hearing things like if you have anything on your person, even a finger nail file, a pencil, they would pass these huge wastebaskets and tell you to drop anything like that in so that there would be no perception that you were attempting to take anyone. HUNTLEY: This is prior to . . . MCKINSTRY: Prior to the marches. When they were convinced and they would even come back a second time and say, now we have to trust you on your honor but now make sure that you' ; ve given us anything that you have in your pocket. At that time it was common for the high school boys to have a little pocket knife. So, usually on the second go around you would still pick up a few more things in that big wastebasket. HUNTLEY: How did you get back and forth between the church and the meetings in the evenings? MCKINSTRY: Now where I lived, where my mom still lives, the church is probably seven or eight minutes. My mom dropped me off a lot. Primarily again because I was working at the church. There were also several people from my church, Rev. Oden who was the assistant pastor for a long time, Rev. Milton Stollenwerck who was over there in that neighborhood for different occasions, so I was always kind of hauling around with somebody too. On the street behind me deacon Finch, Mr. Lowe came by a couple of times and got me. I would find rides with people when she wasn' ; t available to take me. We had initially just one car in my family. When my dad worked a second job at night she was there without a car. As long as I told her that Rev. Oden or one of these people were picking me up she didn' ; t have a problem with it. So, if she wasn' ; t dropping me off, I was riding with someone like that. HUNTLEY: Do you remember the first demonstration that you took part in? The first mass demonstration. MCKINSTRY: I remember the first one where we walked from Parker High School and we didn' ; t get very far. We got to 8th Avenue, there used to be an Atlantic Mill' ; s Thrift Center there and we were stopped at that point and told that we could not go any further. We were ordered to disperse. They had the fog horns. We sort of scattered. We all ended up at the church, but we sort of scattered. The goal was city hall. There were a couple of times when the goal was for everybody to end up at city hall to have a mass rally but I know there were at least two occasions where we didn' ; t. I don' ; t ever remember getting to city hall. The point, I guess what I call the climax or the ultimate march for me was the one that ended in Kelly Ingram Park on the occasion where we got as far as the park. They had brought out the little White tanks . . . HUNTLEY: Before you talk about that though, tell me how did you amass the people, I mean the students at Parker. When you left Parker, how did all of that transpire? MCKINSTRY: We were giving instruction, or it was agreed at the rallies that were held at the church that someone would come to the school when it was time for the students to leave. They gave us an approximate time and it seems to me that they may have said 11:00, roughly 11:00-11:30. It seems that the point where we did see someone out waiting saying it' ; s time to go was around 11:00 or 11:15 or so. Parker had a gate entrance to the street and the gate had a chain, but it was enough of a gap in between that gate that you could squeeze through it with no problem. So, when we got the single that it was time to go most of us just squeezed through the gate. However, there were a lot of students that walked out the front doors and many teachers just did not see them. I don' ; t know if Mr. Johnson saw them but he didn' ; t indicate that he had seen them. So, we were ready. We were waiting for a sign or a person to let us know when it was time and we got the single. HUNTLEY: Now you were a sophomore or a junior? MCKINSTRY: I was a sophomore. HUNTLEY: You were a good student. MCKINSTRY: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were there any questions about, by anybody, about you being involved because that could in fact impact upon your studies? Did that ever come up? Was that ever an issue? MCKINSTRY: As far as the school? HUNTLEY: As far as the school was concerned, teachers or your parents? MCKINSTRY: I was pretty much a straight " ; A" ; student. When I graduated from Parker High School there were 437 children in my graduating class, and I was number seven out of 437. I loved school, loved to study, loved to read and actually found this, I guess this was . . . I always had, I can' ; t exactly describe it, but I always had some type of inner calling. I was just a person who responded to unkindness, not necessarily on this scale, but anytime I saw things that I didn' ; t think were all right or were unkind I would say something. So, this type of movement appealed to something that was already there. I think I had . . . When I was a young girl I used to spend summers with my grandfather who was a minister in Clanton. He and my grandmother traveled around all summer two weeks at every church there to do vacation bible school. I sort of helped assisting in organizing the programs and the bible school and I think I already had a sense of a missionary type attitude. I had a lot of confidence because they allowed me to speak for myself and to just represent myself and to represent them. When I was at the church having been the secretary that long I was also allowed to put in positions of authority, you know at the church. I represented us on many occasions on trips away from the church. In Oklahoma, New York and different Baptist conventions. There was just a type of confidence that came from talking publicly to the church people. I' ; m sure there were occasions that what I said may not have been the best, but they never told you. They always made you feel that it was very special what you had done. I think my grandfather was one of the first people that convinced me, probably that was his job as a grandfather, but he just always made me feel that I was special. That I always needed to speak up if I didn' ; t agree with something. They gave me freedom to do that. My parents actually gave us the freedom if we didn' ; t agree with what they said. It didn' ; t mean that they would change. HUNTLEY: So, you were the most outgoing of your siblings? MCKINSTRY: I think so. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about the occurrence of the demonstration downtown in Kelly Ingram Park. MCKINSTRY: That was my last demonstration. On the day that we marched to the park that was the . . . I think we still came ; we always took that 8th Avenue route. I' ; m trying to remember ; I think it was 14th Street where we turned right. We had a route. They had mapped out a route for us. We, of all the things that they had told us in the church, these motivational speeches and do this and don' ; t do this. They had not told us about water hoses, but they had told us about dogs. If the policeman attempts to do this with the dogs, what are you going to do. They would even have little role plays where you could see what to do and what not to do. They said if a policeman spits on you or if he slaps you. This is how you respond to that. They didn' ; t talk about the tanks. They didn' ; t talk about the water hoses. I suspect that maybe those things were a surprise on the day that we marched. That' ; s what I was thinking, later, well, they didn' ; t tell us about this maybe they didn' ; t know. The water hoses hurt a lot. HUNTLEY: You were actually hit with one? MCKINSTRY: I was hit with the water hose on this side running from the water. I had a sweater, a navy-blue sweater on. I never will forget ; it tore a big hole in my sweater and sort of just swiped part of my hair off on that side. I just remember the sting and the pain on my face. I had never been hit with a whip but somehow I [inaudible]. It was very painful, and you couldn' ; t escape. There were a few points where we were trying to stand up and hold on to a wall, those buildings that were there at the time. It was just a terrific pain from the force which I later learned it was something like 100 pounds of force per minute. That was the point at which I started rethinking do I really want to be a part of this or can I . . . do I have what it takes to continue on this level. I think I made the decision then perhaps that I would offer my contributions in another way. That I would assist in some other ways. I honestly was afraid of the dogs. Did not like being wet up. I felt very disrespected when I was wet up with the water and my hair. We were just marching you know. HUNTLEY: Did you go back to the church after that happened? Were you arrested? MCKINSTRY: I was not arrested, no. I was not one of those that was arrested. I went back to the church briefly. I remember going in the lady' ; s room to just sort of try to dry off a little bit. I ended up getting a ride with someone to get home. When my mom walked in the door she knew something was different, but she didn' ; t know what I had done. I explained to her where I had been and what I had done. At that point I was actually proud of what I had done but I had some question marks there about the tactics that they were using because I think I felt that you could actually be hurt. Serious things could happen with what they were doing. HUNTLEY: You had not thought about that prior to then? MCKINSTRY: Right and she made my daddy aware of it and he was very angry that I had done this. HUNTLEY: With you? MCKINSTRY: He was angry with me. He instructed me not to go back. He just talked about these people were crazy. You might expect anything to happen. They would stop at nothing to keep things the way they were. Just felt like that if there was going to be change, you know, let somebody else make the change, you stay out of it. That' ; s never been my way. HUNTLEY: Were you ever involved in demonstrations again after that? MCKINSTRY: Not marching, no. HUNTLEY: This of course what had happened, they had given out of bodies in effect and the children were really the saving grace of the movement. Did you have any concept of that at the time? That the children were actually saving the movement and the whole idea of filling up jails. What that meant? Did you ever have a real concept of that at that particular point? MCKINSTRY: I don' ; t think I understood the real significance of why they were using the students. I like to refer to us as bearable commodities for them at that time. I came to know later the rationale behind why they used us. I have to say in terms of my participation I felt very much a part of what was going on. I felt that I was needed. I felt when I heard what they had to say, I responded to that spiritually. I agreed spiritually with what they were trying to do and was glad that I could be a part of it. So, I think most of the children felt that this was a worthy cause. This was something that we needed to do, that we wanted to part of, and we had confidence in the leadership. We had confidence in Dr. King and James Bevil and the ones that spoke. They were very charismatic, but they were also very articulate. They were very specific. When you would see them, they would shake your hand, young man, young lady, give you a hug, we appreciate the fact that you are here. And we felt very much included. I did and I think most of the students did. I think most of us probably didn' ; t have the real sense of how valuable we were. We felt good that we could make a contribution in this small way. They needed numbers and we helped them with the numbers. HUNTLEY: You were never arrested, right? MCKINSTRY: No. HUNTLEY: When you returned to school what was the reception like? MCKINSTRY: There was a lot of hugging and laughing and talking about what had happened. Describing and jokes about how someone' ; s hair looked after they had gotten wet. And who they saw running in this direction. There were a couple of students that I knew that went to jail that were out the next day. There were others that stayed in jail for four or five days. So, like the next day or two we heard accounts from those students of what it was like. For the most part it was funny. Yeah, they served us these peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. They were fingerprinted and they went on to tell they were carried away in a wagon and being fingerprinted and so forth. The accounts that came from the students that stayed four or five days were not quite as comical. The ladies had a lot of stories of being mistreated. Not abused necessarily but just mistreated. I think they were taken out to Fair Park and crowded into this area. I remember several of the ladies. In fact, one lady gave this account when the Institute first opened and we did this program across the street. One lady gave this account of needing personal articles, she was there four or five days, and no one attended to her needs. She felt very deprived, disrespected. I mean you know. She cried when she gave this account, and this is like 20 to 25 years later. So, I know it must have really affected her. But, I think the guys were able to tough it out a little better than the girls and ladies were. HUNTLEY: Were there any discussions of this in classrooms after you returned to school? MCKINSTRY: The discussions that we had were about the food, there were jokes about the food. HUNTLEY: In the classroom? With the teacher? MCKINSTRY: Not with the teacher just talking among the students. I don' ; t remember us actually having any discussions with our teachers about what went on. I think the teachers kind of had to know and not know. I think they were proud of us, but they had a business as usual type attitude. We did a lot of talking at lunch time or sometime we had them at study periods when the teacher was not in the room. We would discuss it among ourselves in the library and just sort of compare notes on what had happened to different people. HUNTLEY: Do you remember what you were doing when the march on Washington took place? MCKINSTRY: Watching it on television. HUNTLEY: Did you have any desire to go? Or was that an option at the time? MCKINSTRY: I don' ; t know of any way that I could have gotten permission or whatever to go to Washington. I really don' ; t. I would have loved to have gone. I sat glued to my set. Of course, like everyone else thought that Dr. King' ; s speech was marvelous and wonderful. It was just moving. I was so proud of us as a group of people when I saw how we assembled there. I looked at the people that were representing us, representing me. I listened to them and I was just very, very proud. You know I guess I' ; ve always had that sense of pride because all of the teachers I had in elementary school were wonderful and all of my high school teachers were wonderful. So, where was this inferiority that I kept hearing about. That we couldn' ; t make the grade. That we couldn' ; t perform as well as they could. I could never find what they were talking about. I kept searching for what they were talking about. I was just extremely proud. I remember that. Still felt very committed even though I was in front of the television set. HUNTLEY: September 15, 1963. Tell me what that morning was like. You' ; re at home and getting ready to go to church. Tell me what do you remember about what took place just prior to the fiasco. MCKINSTRY: Ok, I always left home very early. My dad worked his second job on Sunday so he would drop us off as he went to work. My sister, normally I took my sister to Sunday School with me and my two younger brothers. She wouldn' ; t let me comb her hair that morning. I kind of didn' ; t feel like I didn' ; t want to take her anyway. So, I told my mother, " ; She won' ; t let me comb her hair." ; She said, " ; Ok, just go on without her." ; So, I took my brothers and my dad dropped us off. He was headed toward Mountain Brook. I assumed my duties as secretary. I was actually, I had come through the downstairs area to pass out the cards, the attendance cards and the little envelopes where you record your money. I had done that and was heading back up the stairs, saw the girls in the bathroom sort of laughing and talking and putting on their robes. They were excited. Actually, everybody was in Sunday School class, which is probably where they should have been, but they were excited. So, I walked up the steps. We had two sets of steps, well, we still do. Then walked up the second set of steps and had stepped out before I stepped out into the sanctuary. We used to have the church office right there on the right. You know it used to be Rev. Hamlin' ; s study but at that time it was the actual church office. The phone rang and I answered the phone, and someone said, " ; Two minutes." ; Rev. Cross had not made us aware, maybe he made some of the adults aware, but he had not made a general announcement to the church that we had bomb threats. I didn' ; t know, didn' ; t even think about what this might mean. HUNTLEY: What was your response when he said two minutes? MCKINSTRY: Well, he hung up. They said that and then click. HUNTLEY: Then what did you do? MCKINSTRY: I was just standing there and kind of thought about it. Hung the phone up and stepped out into the sanctuary because I had three or four more classes that I needed to give these cards to. As soon as I stepped out in the sanctuary, it wasn' ; t two minutes it was probably more like five seconds. The time it takes to walk from that office, maybe five or six seconds. Something happened at that time, I didn' ; t know that the church had been bombed. I felt, what I heard at first sounded like a rumble, like thunder. I remember thinking rain, it immediately came to my mind. As soon as I thought rain all of the windows started shattering, glass came pouring in and when that happened I heard screams all upstairs, screams. Then somebody said, " ; Get on the floor." ; We all got on the floor and was very quiet for what seems like several minutes, but it was probably on twenty or thirty seconds. Then we heard footsteps at that point somebody had gotten up and started running. Whoever it was everybody else followed. So, I came out of the church through the back. HUNTLEY: So, you came out of the church after getting up off of the floor? MCKINSTRY: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you walk? Did you run? MCKINSTRY: I ran. HUNTLEY: To the back? MCKINSTRY: To the back of the church and we went out through those doors where you normally enter on Sunday for the 11:00 service. Came down the steps and my first thoughts immediately were to find my two younger brothers. I could see that something had happened. I think I learned in that first minute or two that I was out there that our church had been bombed. Everybody was looking for somebody, I think. I was looking for my two younger brothers and couldn' ; t find them. They were in the Sunday School classes downstairs. So, I went back downstairs, and I remember going into the boy' ; s bathroom first. Because I looked in all of the classrooms and I couldn' ; t find them. I went in the boy' ; s bathroom and I didn' ; t see them in there. Then I started in the girl' ; s bathroom and I said, " ; Well, if they went to the bathroom they probably wouldn' ; t be in here." ; But then they might because they were little boys. They were like seven and five. So maybe they ran this way or maybe they just didn' ; t know where to go. So, I spent, this is the part I don' ; t like talking about too much, but I spent a lot of time in the basement looking for them. HUNTLEY: There were other people looking for other folks as well? MCKINSTRY: Yes. I never found them. I can tell you I spent a lot of time in that basement, but my baby brother was found on 8th Avenue. He had jumped out one of those side windows when it broke and just started running. I guess with no real sense of where he was running just knowing that he needed to get out of there. He just ran. My mom, someone called her at home to tell her that they had bombed the church. When she was heading to the church to check on us was when she encountered my baby brother. She was coming and he was coming and that' ; s when she found him. My dad found my oldest brother downtown. I guess a lot of kids just ran, they just scattered. HUNTLEY: Now your father was headed to . . . MCKINSTRY: To Mountain Brook. He worked at the Birmingham Country Club which was a club you can still attend today. I have a membership in but he was a waiter there. He heard the explosion. He said, he had the radio on, my dad was a great listener of talk shows even back then. Whoever he was listening to announced within the next minute or two that the church had been bombed. He said he turned around. He never got to work, he turned around and came right back. He was also looking for us. He encountered my seven-year-old brother somewhere . . . by the time my dad had gotten there they had blocked off a big portion of the area that surrounded the church. So, somewhere on the boundaries of trying to get pass those boundaries my dad encountered my brother. He took his hand and came within the boundaries looking for my other brother and myself. He found me but my mom found my other brother at another point. HUNTLEY: At what point did you know that the children had died? MCKINSTRY: I knew that there were people hurt. I didn' ; t at first because there was a guy outside saying that there were people hurt inside. I had been in there looking for my brothers, but I didn' ; t see anybody. So, I remember thinking that he was just trying to create a little more excitement or something. I was angry because I felt like, why is he saying this. Then I got upset because I thought, well, did he see my brothers and I didn' ; t. So, I kept going back. At that point I still didn' ; t know where they were. You know, I spent a lot of times going back to that girl' ; s bathroom cause I just kept thinking. Maybe because the boy' ; s bathroom was not shattered. You could actually go in there. You could tell that there was damage, but you could actually walk around and see that. Ok, here is the hand bowl and here is the toilet and whatever and obviously no one is here. But in the case of the girl' ; s bathroom you couldn' ; t see that. You didn' ; t know what you were looking at, but you couldn' ; t see that they were there or that they weren' ; t there or that no one was hurt. I was at home. By the time that I was home I remember I had been home about an hour and [inaudible] Robinson called our house. She asked me did I see Carol. I said, " ; No." ; She asked to speak with my mom and just asked if she had seen her. She said, " ; No." ; She said, " ; Well, maybe my Carol is alright. Your Carol is at home so maybe my Carol is alright too." ; HUNTLEY: Did you know all four girls? MCKINSTRY: Yes. Cynthia Westin and were in a book social club together, the Cavalettes. There was a male social club called the Cavaliers. We, they adopted us or something and we came up with the name Cavalettes. It was just something where we had parties at each other' ; s homes. We had purchased Tee-Shirts with our names and the club, a big " ; C" ; on it. We had purchased hats and so forth. In fact, we made those purchases, we ordered those things, John Singletons when it was still opened, right before the church was bombed. Those items that she had ordered we took to her mother' ; s house after, probably about two weeks after the church was bombed. Denise I knew well, didn' ; t spend a lot of time with her, she was a lot younger than I was, but I knew her. I always thought she was a happy delightful child ; you know around the church. She was very pleasant to be around. Addie was very quiet. Addie was in my Sunday School class. I think, I always think of them. Earlier you asked a question about preferential treatment. I think a lot of how a person feels or what they think they see is how they feel about themselves. I always felt like Addie was one of those persons. She was one that didn' ; t feel very good about herself. She was not a very attractive girl, but she was very quiet, very manner able. In our Sunday School class, she didn' ; t have a lot to say. We knew that there was a large family of them, but they would come in and we all talked and played together but I think there was probably more trouble in her than we knew at that time. I say that based on conversations I had with her sister, her oldest sister, June. I think with a lot of people that weren' ; t totally comfortable with themselves that there may have been a perception and I think there was definitely that perception with them. HUNTLEY: You being the secretary in the church, how did this event impact upon you going back into the church? Not just for services but for whatever else you may have been doing. MCKINSTRY: Initially I was very hurt. I was shocked. I was afraid. HUNTLEY: Were you actually afraid to go to the church? MCKINSTRY: I was afraid and the reason I was afraid was earlier that year the Cruel' ; s house had been bombed. That house had destroyed the front, pretty much the foundation in front of our house. I had two, I had four brothers, we had two sets of bunkbeds. The boys that were sleeping on the top were actually thrown out of those beds when that house was bombed. This was a bomb that went off at about 3:00 in the morning. I can' ; t explain to you what it does to you to be awaken that time of morning. We heard this terrible, terrible noise. There was a building, a big cement building, J. M. Tull on the street behind us. My mother said, the policeman said, that the bomb exploded hit the building and bounced back which is why we had so much damage. When the bomb exploded it was like everything lit up. It was like daylight for what seemed like thirty seconds. It was probably about five seconds. Then it went Black again and then you heard screaming. People coming out of their homes. I could hear Ms. Cruel inside my home. I could hear her screaming coming out of her home. Mr. Cruel didn' ; t wake up. He wasn' ; t hurt but he didn' ; t wake up. She was trying to wake him up from the outside, hollering his name. My younger brother just developed a tremendous nervous condition having been thrown out of his bed like that. So when this church explosion occurred I think I decided it was probably just a matter of time, you know. That had such an impact both of those and I think I decided that I was probably going, sooner or later I was going to be killed with one of these bombs. I think it had a lot of effects on me. I was afraid, I was frightened. Not afraid to be part of things or for what I had done but it seemed there was no control. There was no way to stop what they were doing. There was no way to protect yourself. HUNTLEY: You felt helpless in other words? MCKINSTRY: Yes. HUNTLEY: Just in your everyday life this is what you viewed. What you' ; re describing is really a helplessness that you had no control even over yourself because of the exterior forces. MCKINSTRY: Exactly. That' ; s exactly what I felt. I was so withdrawn after that church bombing I did not attend the funeral of the four girls. I remember Ms. Robinson calling. They were asking for some of us to be flower bearers at the funerals. I told my mom, " ; Please, don' ; t make me go." ; I thought that I would probably, I' ; m not sure what I would see. I knew I was really hurting inside and grieving that my friends were gone. I just did not want to be, I didn' ; t want to see them, I didn' ; t want to be there, part of that. She kept trying to encourage me to go. Finally, the day of the funeral she called and said, " ; Well, I think I' ; ll let her stay here." ; I didn' ; t attend the funerals. I just didn' ; t. HUNTLEY: Do you remember when you went back to school? What was the atmosphere like? MCKINSTRY: Very somber. We had teachers that did allow us. You asked that question earlier and I said no. I thought about Ralph Joseph who was a math teacher at that time that I had. I remember that he allowed us and Mr. Winston, can' ; t think of his first name. I remember that they asked a few questions and listened to what we had to say. It was good, it felt good to hear. HUNTLEY: Very therapeutic? MCKINSTRY: Right, very therapeutic. I remember even when the President was killed that year that Mr. Joseph was the one, I was in his class when he made the announcement that it was official that the school had gotten the word that the President had been shot. He walked around the classroom for a little bit [inaudible] and then he came back up front and closed the textbook. A few students were crying, and he allowed us to talk then, just to say what was on our mind. It was difficult. That was another one of those situations where you felt that you had no control over what might happen tomorrow, or did it already happen today. We didn' ; t even have a sense of two things, today when things like this happen you bring in all the therapists and psychologists and students get a chance to talk and really get it out of their system. There was no sense of that nor was there any sense of justice. These things have happened it was accepted, and it may happen to you tomorrow. No one was in jail and nobody even mentioned that no one was in jail. So, it was almost as if it was just a type of predestination that you couldn' ; t do anything about. I think that may have worried me more than a lot of other things. HUNTLEY: You seem to have been a person that was always in control of yourself. And you had lost that and of course that would be traumatic particularly on the circumstances. MCKINSTRY: It shook my coincidence. I was always a very confident person. When I graduated from Parker and went to school, it was like a refreshing change. A wonderful college in [inaudible]. Among the students and professors and we got a chance to talk and occasionally I would have flashbacks and would have troubling moments. I took those opportunities to write. I have a big book of stuff that I would write periodically. I think the writing was therapeutic too. I think it was a way to put on paper some of the pain that I felt. When I read some of that stuff now I almost can' ; t stand to read it because I can see that it was really painful what I was feeling. I would like to read those things now about myself. HUNTLEY: Have you ever thought of publishing them? MCKINSTRY: No. I' ; ve been asked to. HUNTLEY: Will you ever? MCKINSTRY: You know, I don' ; t know. Even as recently as a couple of weeks ago I was approached about putting some of this information in a book form. There are a lot of things that I haven' ; t shared with you that happened during my childhood that don' ; t necessarily relate to this, but they are things that helped or shaped me into what I am today. Whatever that is. Poetry was a big portion of it. Poetry, writings, whatever it was just my way of getting out of my system. We didn' ; t have . . . You know I had people that I could talk to but if they weren' ; t people that had been part of that they really didn' ; t understand what you were trying to say. I mean they couldn' ; t relate to it. A lot of the students that I went to school with lived in California and New York. Judge Wade McKree had daughters there. So, a lot of them either lived in a very protective environment or they lived in big cities where the racism wasn' ; t quite as. HUNTLEY: The northern cities. MCKINSTRY: Northern cities were racism wasn' ; t quite as blatant as it was down South. A lot of it I think I sorted out in my head and tossed it around and came up with my own deductions and theories. Eventually I was able to, I think to put it in perspective. I think once I was really able to grab hold of it and straighten myself up it was like, ok, now I see what' ; s what. HUNTLEY: Did you enjoy Fisk as much as you did Parker? MCKINSTRY: I loved Fisk. Yes, I told you there' ; s not many environments that I don' ; t enjoy but the wonderful environment of [inaudible]. We had, it' ; s my first experience with White instructors, and they were very congenial, just part of the campus. You know everybody was in jeans and sweatshirts or whatever. There were occasions when we dressed differently but most part there was a lot of learning about different cultures and what Blacks in other cities were doing. A lot of Black history taught during that time. Dante and John [inaudible] were some of the artists in residents during the time that I was there. I think there were a couple of other names you would probably recognize. Regular visitors to my campus were people like Sydney Poiter, Harry Belafonte, the guy that was married to [inaudible]. We had an African group that came over that brought African dancers that actually danced in their native outfits. HUNTLEY: [inaudible] MCKINSTRY: This was a constant part of the life there. Everybody that came had a very positive message, a very motivational message and it was like hey, I know you guys are here learning and getting ready to step out in the world and we' ; re waiting on you. We need some more help out here. They were very, very motivational. That' ; s the one thing, I think, I didn' ; t see during that era Blacks bickering among themselves. I didn' ; t see Blacks pointing fingers or disagreeing as much with methodologies or your way or mine. HUNTLEY: That period from ' ; 65 to ' ; 69 was probably full of the most volatile years of the 20th century because there were a lot of things that were happening. Of course, the civil rights movement had escalated to become more aggressive. The development of the Black Panther Party. You had the various rebellion streets of various cities, Detroit. You had the Black Power Conferences. How did all of that play on your campus at Fisk? MCKINSTRY: All of that was very [inaudible]. When he came around he was well received. I remember there were sit-ins going on downtown in Nashville and I believe if I remember right Diane Nash Bevel was part of that. By the time that I came to Fisk as a freshman and sophomore not knowing much about Nashville and about . . . I was a little bit more reserved in terms of stepping out in that manner. During the time I was at Fisk was also when Dr. King was killed. So, I remember that day was real quite over the campus but pretty much we always knew any new person that was involved with the movement or if there was another spoke person or any messages that were out there pretty much came to our campus. We were all very much apart of whatever we could do. If we didn' ; t march we assisted by making signs. I' ; m trying to think, it seems we donated money even in some cases the little change we had. It wasn' ; t a lot but sometimes we would take up money and send what we had. I remember also across the street from Fisk there were several Black businesses, a bookstore, an oldies quickmart, a cleaners. And those people we did volunteer work during the summer the demonstrations that were going on in Nashville we came in and assisted as far as helping them stay open if they needed to leave or to just be there to protect, kind of protect things. We were a fairly protective area anyway just because we were a college campus. HUNTLEY: What did you do after Fisk? MCKINSTRY: When I left Fisk, I came back to Birmingham. I married my junior year at Fisk. My husband . . . HUNTLEY: He was at Fisk? MCKINSTRY: He had graduated from Fisk. He came back, he was in the air force, he came back during the month of January and we married. Then he went back to the air force. By the time I graduated from Fisk we had been married exactly a year and nine months. I was pregnant with my daughter when I graduated. So, she was born, I graduated in May. She stayed with my mother, she was born in September and a couple of months after that he was shipped out to Korea. So, I spent the next year and a half with my mother. I taught school at Carl High School in North Birmingham. I took care of my daughter. When he came back from Korea, he accepted a position, a management position, at Sears and we moved to Florida. We lived in Orlando for about three years. In fact when I moved to Orlando, Walt Disney World had been open two weeks. I have some of the original maps and the $3.50 ticket they used to sell when they first opened and all of the memorabilia there. We used to make a lot of trips to Walt Disney World, we were about 15 minutes from there. We lived there three years. I taught school there, Old Ridge High School. My second daughter was born there. After three years there he was transferred to Atlanta. So, I spent about two and a half years in Atlanta, and I didn' ; t work. In fact I went out and applied for a job and received a job offer with the Atlanta Board of Education and the day that I came home to tell him about that he was waiting to tell me that he had been transferred again to a little place called Winner Robbins, Georgia. We spent, at that time it had the reputation for being the safest city in the United States. So, we spent about two years there. While we were there they attempted to transfer him to Chicago. He said, " ; No, I' ; m not moving to Chicago. I' ; ll just look for another job." ; So, they decided to give him another option and the other option ended up being Birmingham. So, we ended up moving back to Birmingham, that' ; s how we got back here. When we moved back [inaudible]. HUNTLEY: If there was a movement going on today and your children were the age that you were when you participated in the demonstrations. Would you allow them to participate? MCKINSTRY: I would very much like for my children to be part of any movement that affects us as a race of people. However, I would like to make sure that they have the right perspective on what they' ; re doing, why they' ; re doing it. You know since that time while I do believe that there are very basic freedoms that many of our people are denied or just don' ; t have access to. I have sensed developed just some philosophies of my own. I watch our people in life in their daily activities. There are a lot of things that we used to be very conscientious about that we are not now. We used to be very prudent with our money and our property and so forth. We became very casual about that and have lost a lot of it. We used to be very conscientious about teaching our children, not just right from wrong, integrity and character. We insisted that they perform at school and we insisted that they represent us in a certain way and a certain manner while they are in public. We have, we somewhere have dropped the ball. We don' ; t insist on a lot of things that we used to. I also have sort of developed the perspective that a lot of the war we fight right now is an economic war. That we can' ; t just do it with marching. A lot of what we do has to be from the perspective that we understand that people don' ; t just treat you right because it' ; s the right thing to do. Or people don' ; t just respect you because it' ; s the right thing to do. We first got to respect ourselves and there' ; s a lot of tapes that we can make on that, but we first have to fully respect ourselves and our families. One of the ways that I respect my family is that I make sure that my family has a roof over their head and food and clothing, and they go to school and understand what it' ; s about. I attend their meetings. I don' ; t have children this age anymore, but I attend the PTA meetings and I' ; m part of what' ; s going on and part of the decisions that affect my children. I show my support, my responsibility, I set the right example by doing these things. There are a lot of things that we can do that no one else can control. Whites don' ; t control how much time you spent with your son. If you play ball with him, take him to the library or just have the father and son walks and talks. Those are things that are within your control. I suspect that, that' ; s where the real confidence and real integrity and character is built. We don' ; t do much of that anymore. I' ; ve talked with a lot of children. For example, when we give the town hall meeting over at Birmingham Southern, remember the students that kept asking questions from Homewood? HUNTLEY: Yes. MCKINSTRY: Those students have been in contact with me since that program. They wanted someone to talk to. First of all, just to acknowledge that they understood the types of problems that they were having in Homewood. I certainly understood because my children had followed in similar footsteps while they were in school. So, I certainly understood what they were talking about. Now, where do we draw the line. Your child, sort of your student but you' ; re considered a child, and these are adults that are playing these games with you. So, without going against the wishes of your parents if the parents are involved to that extent. In a lot of cases they appear not to be. So, what kind of advice can I give to young people to keep them motivated to not make them feel that there is something wrong with them, because they recognize the differences being made. They recognize the rights and wrongs of the issues. So, how do we continue to fight and stayed focus but not lose it to emotion while this stuff is going on. I like to take on those types of struggles. I think the most important investment that we can make is with our children. Whether that be teaching them, I like to teach. I did corporate income taxes for ten years so I . . . all of my two daughters' ; friends would come around and say, " ; Mrs. McKinstry, will you do my income tax?" ; I did income taxes for years and never charged them anything. Then I thought how much better it would be if you can do your own. How good do we feel, the more we can do for ourself the more better we feel, right. So, I started just teaching them and sharing information about finances and stocks and investments. You know, this is your ultimate weapon. To position yourself in a certain way that you are not beholding to anyone. So, that when you are on this job later, or wherever you are later you don' ; t have to accept less than what you think is due you or less than what your character dictates because you need a check or you have allowed yourself to get in a position where this man is controlling how you eat, buy, etc. So, I like to have those kinds of conversations. I like to take us to an economically and I think that may have been more what Jesse Jackson was focusing on during Martin Luther King' ; s era which probably was a little bit ahead of his time. It' ; s something that I think is very much needed, you know, our children graduate now, and they can' ; t balance a checkbook, have no concept of money and so forth. All of its important. I mean that part of is important. Hopefully the character and integrity and the stride for academic excellence had been, that foundation has been laid hopefully in grades 1-12. Then somewhere in there those last senior years we focus on the real energy zones. You really have to think about that. So, I have a special interest in finding answers and I try to pass that along. What I also see working in a corporate environment is a new trend now where companies are sourcing or contracting out a lot of employees. So, students will not, employees will not be able to be on the 10, 20, 30-year tenures like our parents did. Which means they also will not be able to give that automatic retirement anymore. HUNTLEY: I want to thank you for all your time and all your wisdom because you obviously really set a tone that is really going to be important for the 21st Century. Thank you for coming. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CMcKinstry1998.xml CMcKinstry1998.xml
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Carolyn McKinstry (1998)
Description
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Carolyn McKinstry discusses getting involved in the Movement as early as eighth grade by doing clerical work at 16th Street Baptist Church where she saw Dr. King and Ralph Abernathy speak. She was the secretary there through the church bombing. McKinstry participated in various demonstrations before attending Fisk University.
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19980423M
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
Abernathy, Ralph, 1926-1990
Fisk University
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1998-04-23
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video
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dc02d9c6ae5a051ca1301dc960f3fa25
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
Interviewee
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Carrie Hamilton Lock
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CHLock1995.xml
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Newberry's
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5.4 October 18, 1995 Carrie Hamilton Lock 19951018L 0:49:54 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham West End High School 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 Newberry's Carrie Hamilton Lock Horace Huntley Video 1:|10(4)|28(12)|44(4)|62(3)|74(3)|84(12)|98(11)|120(4)|135(15)|157(5)|167(11)|177(2)|188(6)|199(2)|211(9)|218(1)|233(1)|248(3)|256(2)|266(4)|277(13)|290(12)|298(11)|310(6)|322(12)|334(1)|344(6)|353(10)|365(2)|379(9)|396(8)|418(5)|426(13)|437(11)|447(11)|459(11)|473(2)|480(7)|499(5)|514(12)|529(8)|543(13)|562(4)|573(14)|584(9)|604(11)|625(14) 0 https://youtu.be/ShESKLN1MYk YouTube video English 20 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Ms. Carrie Hamilton Lock for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 43 Family Background You were a young person during the time of the struggle and what we are trying to do is sort of piece together this story of Birmingham and the Movement. Lock tells how her parents are from Birmingham and her mother was a nurse and her father was a minister. First Baptist Church ; Nursing ; Rickwood Ball Park Birmingham (Ala.) ; Ensley (Ala.) 173 Educational Journey He sort of laid the foundation for me, because I was one of those house husbands for awhile, myself. Lock states the schools she attended and describes how her elementary school was an all-black school. African Americans--Segregation ; Parker High School Birmingham (Ala.) 272 Community Background And, maybe you were in comparison. Tell me just a bit about your community, the community of Rising. Lock recalls how she grew up in a tight knit community and how she stayed with her grandparents sometimes. Blue collar workers ; Parker High School ; Rising Birmingham (Ala.) 585 Her Parents' Involvement in the Movement Were your parents actively involved in the Movement? Lock recalls how her parents would attend the mass meetings at Sixteenth Street Baptist Church and how her father was a prominent voice in the movement. Civil rights movement ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) 678 Impact of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church Bombing How did that impact upon you as a young person, the bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church? Lock describes her memories of the bombing and how this instance solidified the fact that there were two different worlds: white and Black. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Racism Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States 892 Relationship with the Police What was the relationship, as you remember, between your community and the Birmingham Police Department? Lock recalls how her community never really dealt with the police because the men in the neighborhood handled things. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Nuclear family units Birmingham (Ala.) 1036 Watching Her Father Go to Jail You mentioned that your father, and your mother I assume, were actively involved in the struggle. Lock recalls when her father was pulled over by police on the way to pick their mother up from the hospital and how he was arrested and taken to jail while her and her siblings were left on the sidewalk. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States 1195 Involvement in the '63 Demonstrations Were your parents involved with the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights prior to the '63 demonstrations? Lock tells how she can still hear the screams of the people and the water coming out of the hoses whenever she drives by Newberry's. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Newberry's Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States 1272 Going to Mass Meetings What do you remember about the mass meetings? How would you describe the mass meetings that you attended? Lock recalls listening to Reverend Shuttlesworth and Dr. King preach about the movement and how police would show up to the meetings. Jackson, Jesse, 1941- ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Mass meetings ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 1465 Attending Strategy Meetings for the Demonstrations Going to West End, that means that you transferred from Parker High School. Lock describes what it was like attending strategy meetings and how Dr. King would call out the traitors in the meetings who were reporting Movement information. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Mass Meetings Birmingham (Ala.) 1634 Participation in the Demonstrations What do you remember about participating in demonstrations? Lock recalls seeing the older children go to jail at the demonstrations and how demonstrators realized that it was not a big deal to go to jail. Arrest (Police methods) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 1802 Integrating West End High School When you finished your freshman year at Parker, then you decided or your parents decided or you decided collectively, how that decision made? Lock describes seeing white mobs and the KKK at the entrance of West End High School when she started her first day there, but that did not scare her and she graduated from West End. Integration ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Ku Klux Klan Birmingham (Ala.) ; Racism ; West End High School 2428 Her Siblings' Support for Integrating an All-white School What was the reaction of your other brothers and sisters to your attending and having to go through what you were going through? Lock tells how her siblings were very supportive of her decision and how she had to mature faster than others because of her experience at West End. Integration ; West End High School Birmingham (Ala.) 2602 Continuing Her Education After high school, what did you do? Lock tells where she went to college after high school and how she moved around for a little while. Northeastern Illinois University ; Tuskegee Institute ; University of Texas at San Antonio San Antonio (Tex.) ; Tuskegee (Ala.) 2957 Conclusion of Interview Very well stated. Thank you very much. Interview is concluded. Oral History Carrie Hamilton Lock discusses getting involved in the Movement by following her parents' example. She attended mass meetings and integrated West End High School. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Carrie Hamilton Lock for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College. Today is October 18, 1995. Welcome, Ms. Lock. LOCK: Thank You. HUNTLEY: You were a young person during the time of the struggle and what we are trying to do is sort of piece together this story of Birmingham and the Movement. But first, I would like to just start by asking you some general questions about your family. Where were your parents from? LOCK: My parents are both from Birmingham, Alabama. I was born and raised in the Rising area, which is most notable for Rickwood Ball Park. HUNTLEY: Did you have brothers and sisters? LOCK: Yes, I did. I have an older sister, Cheryl. Then, I' ; m the second in line, Carrie. My brother, William, my brother Bernard and my sister, Nancy. HUNTLEY: Do all of them still live in Birmingham? LOCK: Well, everybody lives here except Nancy. HUNTLEY: Where does Nancy live? LOCK: Nancy lives in Illinois. HUNTLEY: How much education did your parents have? Did they go to high school or to college? LOCK: My mother and father both went to Parker High School. My father was a minister. He was minister at First Baptist Church in Ensley. He also worked and retired from the U. S. Postal Service. He was a mail handler here in Birmingham and retired after 20 something years. HUNTLEY: Did your mother work outside of the home? LOCK: My mother did work outside of the home. She worked as a nurse and she was involved in our child rearing. But I would have to say that my father was an early Mr. Mom. He took care of the kids. He did the cooking, he did the washing, he did the ironing. HUNTLEY: He sort of laid the foundation for me, because I was one of those house husbands for awhile, myself. Tell me a bit about your education. Where did you start first grade? LOCK: I started first grade at Brighton Elementary School and I went there for the first and the second grade. I can remember my first grade teacher was Mrs. Austin. HUNTLEY: You seem as if you have fond memories of Mrs. Austin? LOCK: I have all fond memories of my childhood. HUNTLEY: That' ; s great. You moved from Brighton, then what school did you attend? LOCK: I went to Princeton Elementary School. HUNTLEY: Was Princeton an integrated school at the time? LOCK: No. It was all Black at the time. Princeton remains, in 1995 to be a premier elementary school, now. During the time that I went to school, it was a very good school and the community was always involved. We had a principal, Ms. Lucille Boyd. Ms. Boyd, Ms. Catherine Smith, our teachers, were all involved with the kids. I had no idea that we were poor, because back then everything was based on integrity, instead of money. So, my parents had plenty of integrity. I thought we were rich. HUNTLEY: And, maybe you were in comparison. Tell me just a bit about your community, the community of Rising. How do you remember Rising as a child growing up in that community? LOCK: The foremost thing that I remember about Rising is that it was four blocks east and west and four blocks north and south, and so, that was our world. We had four block by four blocks and we were a very closely knit community. All of the parents knew each other. My parents worked. Both of my parents worked. All the time my mother and father would leave very early and come back very late, but all the neighbors were in charge of us, so that if anything happened, rest assured the neighbors were going to tell. HUNTLEY: What kind of occupations did your neighbors have? Do you remember what kind of work was done by most of the people in the community? LOCK: During the 50s and the 60s neighbors would be the gambit of teachers, nurses, nurses aides, domestics, proud domestics, but people that I knew as portermen were proud people. They had worked to send their children to whatever schooling that they were going to go through, business schooling at that time. I just remember a dignified life style during that time. HUNTLEY: You went to Parker High School, initially, is that correct? LOCK: Oh, yes, 9th grade. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that experience. Why did you decide to go to Parker High School? LOCK: Because I was spoiled. My grandmother and grandfather lived in the Smithfield area, and, at my grandmother' ; s house I had my own room. I had all the privileges that an only child has. My grandfather was a minister and he always wore a black suit, a white shirt and a black tie. He would take me to school and have me sit in the back. He would get out and come around the side, it was like I had a chauffeur, so of course, all the kids thought we were rich. Of course, we were not. But everybody thought that my grandfather was my chauffeur. HUNTLEY: This is at Parker? LOCK: This is at Parker and when we got out at 3:00 or 3:30, whatever time school let out, he would stand on the sidewalk and stand their very proud, open the door and stand and wait for me to get in. I felt like a princess. HUNTLEY: Where was your older sister? LOCK: They were at home. HUNTLEY: She was out of school already? LOCK: No. My older sister is less than two years older than I, so she was at Parker. HUNTLEY: But she lived with your mother and father and you lived with your grandparents? LOCK: Well, just for a little while. When I would get mad at my parents, I would go to my gran, just like kids are today. HUNTLEY: Playing the ends against the middle? LOCK: That' ; s right. I was real good at it. HUNTLEY: After your 9th grade at Parker, tell me what do you remember about Parker as a school? LOCK: I remember fun times. I remember that coming from Princeton Elementary school, which is a very small school, and going to Parker, I thought this is the greatest thing that has ever happened to me. It was so big, it was so huge, I was such an adult, I just thought this was the greatest thing in the world. Most of the people there knew my parents. The teachers knew my dad and my mom, so we couldn' ; t get away with anything, because people would call your parents then. You didn' ; t dare get in trouble because that would just be the end of it. I felt very special there. I worked for the principal, so I had my own principal' ; s pass. My teachers were very good. I was freshman representative to the student council so I got a chance to go to assembly on a weekly basis and stand on the stage. That was very important. HUNTLEY: So you were a very active person in your formative years? LOCK: I suppose, but back then I didn' ; t think so. I mean, you don' ; t think about it. It wasn' ; t conscious. HUNTLEY: You were a freshman at Parker in 1963? LOCK: That' ; s correct. HUNTLEY: During the demonstrations? LOCK: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were your parents actively involved in the Movement? LOCK: Yes, they were. My parents would go to the mass meetings at 16th Street Baptist Church. My father was a minister, my grandfather was a minister and at that time all ministers were vocal characters in the Movement. They kept the community abreast of what would be going on and what should be going on. But I think the thing that I remember the most about Parker High School was standing in the principal' ; s office when Kennedy was killed and back to back to back to back, so many people were dying. I was always a kid that was interested in the news. HUNTLEY: What do you mean " ; back to back to back people were dying?" ; LOCK: People were dying in Mississippi. I remember when Megar Evers was killed. I remember when the three civil rights workers died in Mississippi. Ms. Lucio, I remember that as a child. I remember when Denise McNair, Addie Collins and the other girls were killed at 16th Street Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: How did that impact upon you as a young person, the bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church? LOCK: If I can remember it was on a September, an early September morning on Sunday and the blast shook our house even though we lived very far away and the news came by telephone. People ran out in the streets. They were screaming, they were hollering. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in when the bombing took place? LOCK: I lived by Rickwood Ball Park. I lived in the Rising neighborhood. But it shook our house and everybody wondered what is it, what in the world. It was so loud and, then, we were told what had happened. Nobody could believe it because the civil rights era was one thing, but murder was something else. I can remember that the young Wesley girl, her father had been my teacher, my principal at Princeton Elementary School and Chris McNair had taught at Parker, so these were people that I knew, if not the children, I knew their parents, or I knew who their parents were. It was utter disbelief. Nobody believed that even White people were so low down, so hateful, so spiteful that they would kill children. And, after they did kill the children, they weren' ; t sorry. HUNTLEY: What kind of impression did that leave on you about White people in general? Did you look at White people in general or did you look at this as an isolated case? LOCK: No. It was not isolated because as children we were very aware of Whites. We were very aware of the two worlds that we lived in--the Black world, the White world. My parents always had Ebony magazine around and Jet magazine, and we understood. We knew about Emmitt Till, the young boy that had been killed and his body mutilated. We knew about lynchings. We were very aware of how Black people disappeared, never to be heard of again. How Black men would be shot in the back, walking the streets and the police would say, " ; They were shot in self-defense because these people were robbing or killing." ; We were very aware of the terrible things that were happening in the Black community. But, as children we were not afraid. HUNTLEY: What was the relationship, as you remember, between your community and the Birmingham Police Department? Do you ever remember any incidences in your community between the police and individuals in your community? LOCK: I never saw the police in our community. We lived in a very quiet community. A family community. As a matter of fact, when I was in the 8th grade, I never knew anybody that was divorced. None of my friends parents were divorced. I didn' ; t know what that meant. We might have been poor people, but we were a proud people with dignity. I remember that if there were ever any conflicts in the community, that they would come to the men, my dad, other men. If young boys got in trouble, their parents threatened to tell my dad, other fathers, they would be in big trouble. At that time all men disciplined all the children. HUNTLEY: Are you suggesting that there were not children in your community that lived with just their mother or their grandmother and the father was not in the home? LOCK: I don' ; t remember anybody that didn' ; t have a father at home. I just don' ; t remember anybody that didn' ; t have two parents. During most cases, most grandparents were still inside the house, or next door. HUNTLEY: So it was an all inclusive kind of community in those extended families because you actually had people in your community who were just like family who may not have been blood relatives? LOCK: Exactly. Just recently my mother and I were talking. And I said, " ; You know, when you' ; re young, you don' ; t question anything." ; There were people that I called Aunt so and so, or Cousin so and so, and you never really knew if they were blood relatives or not. It didn' ; t matter, but you didn' ; t question it. HUNTLEY: You mentioned that your father, and your mother I assume, were actively involved in the struggle. You did say that all ministers were spokespersons for the Movement. But, there were some ministers did not participate. But your father and your grandfather obviously did. Can you tell me the extent of their involvement in the Movement at the time? LOCK: My father had a very personal stake in the Movement. My father was very outspoken. He was not afraid of White people. He always said what was on his mind and it often got him in trouble. HUNTLEY: For instance, how did it get him trouble? LOCK: For example, when we were very small children, maybe I was 6 or 7, we were on the way to the hospital to pick my mother up from the hospital and the police stopped my father. They got really smart. They said something about " ; Get out of the car, boy." ; And, of course, we were on the back seat and my dad said, " ; Who are you calling boy?" ; And, the cops says, " ; You' ; re going to be in trouble." ; My dad said, " ; If you put your gun on top of the car and fight me fair, I' ; ll show you who a boy is." ; And, they took him to jail. I can remember that it was cold, that it was very damp, raining and the police left us standing on the sidewalk. My mother had just gotten out of the hospital. We had never made it home. They left us there--children, small children, and my mother was not dressed. She didn' ; t have a coat. She was coming from the hospital. They took my father to jail, but he was not afraid. Whenever people got in trouble in the community, my father, along with some of the other men, there were four or five men, young men, that everybody came to when somebody was in trouble. None of these men were afraid of Whites. They were not afraid. They were protectors of the community. If something happened, they would take care of it. HUNTLEY: Were your parents involved with the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights prior to the ' ; 63 demonstrations? LOCK: I can remember slipping off to maybe two meetings without my parents knowing about it. But after the bombing, it was a nightly ritual whenever the mass meeting was called, everybody was there. HUNTLEY: But prior to the bombing, in April, the bombing was in September. In April and May, there were marches practically every day. Were you involved in that? LOCK: We were downtown. I can remember the particular march at Newberry' ; s downtown. I look at Newberry' ; s today and I see it' ; s ruin. I see the plight of the building and I just remember. And, if you' ; re quiet enough, you can hear the water, you can hear the people screaming still. You can hear the dogs. And I said, " ; Why, why?" ; HUNTLEY: You, of course, at that point was a teenager, a young teenager at the time. LOCK: I was probably about 12, then or 13. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the mass meetings? How would you describe the mass meetings that you attended? LOCK: They were very intense. Even as a child, you knew that there was something special in the air. At the meetings, it was like church but it was different from church. I can remember on the stage, Dr. King, Mrs. King, Fred Shuttlesworth, Jesse Jackson, Julian Bond. Julian Bond and Jesse Jackson were young boys. They didn' ; t look much older than we were, but they were there. And, Rev. Woods and other people that I can' ; t remember their names, there was another older gentleman, they called him Sunshine, he' ; s dead now. Sunshine was always close to my parents and he kept us all informed of what was going on. I can remember when they bombed Attorney Shores home. And, so, everyday there was something to let Black people know that they were not safe. They would intimidate our parents and tell them if you go to these meetings, you' ; re not going to have a job. Well, the jobs that they had, they couldn' ; t make a living for their children anyway, so it didn' ; t matter. They would sit on the porch at night, my father and other men, with shotguns and rifles and they would sit on the front porch all night just to make sure that White people didn' ; t harm us. They would go to other communities and ban together and watch over the houses to make sure that people were not bombed in their sleep. HUNTLEY: Were your parents or your home ever threatened? Did people every call your home? Why were they sitting on the porch? I assume that was on your porch. LOCK: There was somebody in every block. After I went to West End, they sat up all night across the street from our house, in the back of our house, on the side of our house. HUNTLEY: Going to West End, that means that you transferred from Parker High School. But before we get to West End High School, let me just ask you a couple of questions about the Movement itself. You, in 1963, participated in demonstrations. Did you also participate in any of the classes, training sessions that were done with young people that were going to demonstrate? LOCK: I don' ; t think they were called classes, necessarily. But, we would sit in church as though it was church and they would tell us what to do. The strategists were the men, they would say, " ; We' ; re going to walk down this street and when the police come, then, we' ; ll come from the other street, and when the other police come, we' ; ll come." ; They were very smart. As a child, I loved the meetings because I always thought that Black people were smarter than the cops because they were always surprised. And I can remember that they would always send somebody to infiltrate the meeting and how Dr. King would stand on the podium and call them out. It was as though he knew who the " ; Judas" ; was. HUNTLEY: You mean a Black person that would be sent? LOCK: A Black person that would be sent in. We called them the " ; Uncle Toms." ; I can' ; t label all people that. There were some people there for whatever reason, that the White man would demand that they report back, that they would bring back information. And, for whatever reason, they had to do it. HUNTLEY: These individuals were known to be ... LOCK: Some were known and some were unknown. I just remember that Dr. King would speak to them as " ; Judas" ; and, then, there were Whites that would stand in the back of the church and take notes. I can remember Bull Conner as a child, and the police that they would be outside of the church. They were very visible. They always wore sunglasses. You could see the malice on their faces. You knew that they meant you harm. But they were very bold about infiltrating the church. They didn' ; t have any respect, but we prevailed. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about participating in demonstrations? LOCK: Some of us went because it was fun. Until the four children were killed, when you' ; re very young, you don' ; t know why. But, you' ; re caught up in the emotions. My parents talked to us. They knew that something would come, eventually come. I' ; m not saying that they had the foresight to see what eventually did happen, but I knew they wanted something better for their children. HUNTLEY: Do you ever remember being in a demonstration and being attacked by the police or by the firemen? LOCK: No. I remember just being in the crowds and running. To say that I was bitten by a dog, no. To say that I was knocked down by the water hoses, no. But, we were in the crowds when the dogs were turned loose. We were in the crowds when the water was turned on, but there were so many people. I can remember when they would pick demonstrators up and we were still very young. So it was the older children, the high school children that went to jail. I can remember when all of the city jails were full, then they started putting people in the Bessemer jails. And, when the Bessemer jails were full, they started putting people in the Fair Park, every conceivable facility, and by this point, Blacks had come to realize that going to jail was no big deal. There was nothing criminal about it, so I knew older teenagers who would go to jail and be released and go back the same night to get arrested again. HUNTLEY: But you were never arrested, right? LOCK: I was never arrested, there. HUNTLEY: But, you were arrested? LOCK: Later on, I had my share. HUNTLEY: Did you go to St. Augustine and participate? LOCK: No. HUNTLEY: Okay. Let me just take this a step further then. When finished your freshman year at Parker, then you decided or your parents decided or you decided collectively, how was that decision made? LOCK: Well, Dr. King asked all the children, all the students to integrate the schools. And, there were 22 signed up for West End. There were other numbers signed up to the other schools, but specifically I remember 22 signed up for West End. HUNTLEY: This is in " ; 63-64 school year? LOCK: 1964-65 school year. HUNTLEY: And, there were 22 that signed up? LOCK: Twenty-two signed up the Sunday night before. HUNTLEY: How many showed up on Monday morning? LOCK: One. HUNTLEY: And that was you? LOCK: Yes. HUNTLEY: How did you get there? LOCK: My father drove us. My mother, my father and myself. When we arrived, I can remember the Klan marching down the sidewalk in their hoods, in their robes and I believe this was the first time that I had seen the Klan. HUNTLEY: Do you remember the numbers? Were there others that were there that did not have the robes on? LOCK: There were mobs there. It was a mob scene, but I will always remember the robes and not being afraid and the closer we got to the school, I felt privileged, I felt honored. I was not afraid, maybe I should have been afraid, but I was not afraid because I had my father there. And, I can remember to get to the school door, we had to say " ; Excuse me, excuse me." ; And they didn' ; t want to let us through and they would say, " ; Nigger, go home. Nigger! Nigger! Go home, Nigger!" ; And the more they said that, the prouder I got and the more I held my shoulders back and I smiled. But there were a lot of angry Whites there. My father and my mother talked to me and they said that the West End area was a poor area and that' ; s where poor, White trash lived. And, that we were better than that. Those people were acting that way because they didn' ; t know any better. My mother and father prepared me for what would happen, but they had no idea as to what really happened. HUNTLEY: What would happen when you finally get into the school and you go to the office? Do you remember the reception that you received from the principal and from those that worked in the office? LOCK: I remember the principal being very old and very nervous. He was probably thinking that no Blacks would come. That we wouldn' ; t dare come and, then I showed up. Inside the school, it was chaos. The children were very mean. They yelled, " ; Nigger." ; But I had heard that so much, it didn' ; t matter. HUNTLEY: Inside the classroom this was going on? What did the teachers do when these kinds of incidents took place? LOCK: If you don' ; t have leadership at the top, if the principal does not say, " ; We will not tolerate outbursts." ; If the principal does not say, " ; We' ; re just going to accept the situation," ; what happened was just awful. I can remember in the classrooms that all the children, all the students, if there were 20-25 kids in one class, they would also sit in the front row, two and three to one seat and, then, they would leave four rows and, then, I would sit on the last row. And, there would be four empty rows between us. And, I could not go to the restroom when the other students went to the restroom. I had a special time to go to the restroom. HUNTLEY: A specially designated time? LOCK: A special designated time, whether I had to or not. And, one particular day, when I was in the 10th grade, I had to go and I had to go at the time when the other kids were in there also. I remember that this was the first time that I had new books. I had brand new books for the first time and one of the students knocked my books over in a sink full of water. Well, Heaven and Hell couldn' ; t help her right then. I didn' ; t care. I beat her from A to Z and I didn' ; t care. HUNTLEY: It was just the two of you in the restroom at the time? LOCK: No, no. There were many girls in there, but I would have taken care of all of them. It was the first time, in my life that I had brand new books. My father had probably taken his whole two weeks salary to pay for my books. I was so proud. They were wrapped in newspaper. I had trimmed the newspaper and bound the books. I was so careful not to get any scratches on them. No dirt. They were protected because they were new books. HUNTLEY: What happened as a result of the fight? LOCK: Well, I' ; m sure that the White girl wished that she hadn' ; t started that. She said I told her to pick them up and she knocked them on the floor again. I said, " ; Pick them up." ; And she said something about she didn' ; t listen to a nigger. Something about a nigger. After that I don' ; t remember except that when I finished with her you couldn' ; t really tell what she was made of. But we were both sent to the principal' ; s office and the principal expelled me and I called my dad. My father came to get me. When I got home, we called the 16th Street Baptist Church and my dad called Washington and he talked to Kisenbach. They sent somebody there. There were three White men that came that night. HUNTLEY: To your home? LOCK: To my home. They wanted to know what happened, and I told them. They wanted to be very sure that I hadn' ; t initiated the fight. HUNTLEY: This was the night of the fight? LOCK: This was the night of the fight. HUNTLEY: Did you go back the next day? LOCK: I cannot remember if I went back the next day, but this was a very critical point because Whites didn' ; t know how they were going to handle the situation in the schools. There were no rules. They really didn' ; t know how to handle it. HUNTLEY: Were you the only Black child at the school at that time? LOCK: I was the only Black child there and it seemed like 2,000 of them, but it was probably no more than 300-400 students there. HUNTLEY: West End was a pretty large school, so it may have been about 2,000. West End and Woodlawn were huge schools, so they probably were very large classes. Did you remember when you returned to school, what your reception was? LOCK: The principal was very angry. HUNTLEY: With you? LOCK: He was very angry. The attorney general had sent people. I don' ; t know who the White men were, to the school to talk to him. It would have been very easy to suspend me, get rid of me and never see me again, but my father said, no. He asked me, " ; Can you handle it?" ; My father would always ask me, " ; Can you handle it?" ; But, he knew that I could. I knew that he expected me to and I knew that somebody had to do it. HUNTLEY: What was the reaction of your other brothers and sisters to your attending and having to go through what you were going through? Were they aware of what was happening at the time? LOCK: Of course they were aware. HUNTLEY: What were their reactions? LOCK: They were my brothers and sisters. They were supportive. Whatever had to be done is exactly what we did. My brothers were younger and perhaps they did not understand as much, but my sister did. My sister was fearful for me. My sister was very protective of me. They were always fearful that something might happen to me. If the other kids were let out of school at 3:00, then my dad had to pick me up at 2:30. I was never allowed to go out of the door when they were going out of the door. HUNTLEY: For the entire three years that you were there? LOCK: For the entire three years that we were there. They said they couldn' ; t protect me. HUNTLEY: When you graduated, how many Black students were at West End at that time? LOCK: There were a total of three. There was one girl to graduate in 1967. There were two of us graduating and I can' ; t remember if Vera Marcus was in the 10th grade, I believe at that time. HUNTLEY: When you graduated? LOCK: When I graduated. HUNTLEY: And Patricia Marcus? LOCK: Patricia Marcus, her sister had gone to West End in 1963 and graduated. HUNTLEY: Were there no Black males involved in the school at all? LOCK: No. HUNTLEY: That must have been a very trying time in your life. How did that experience impact upon the rest of your life? LOCK: I grew up fast. I matured probably faster than the kids around me. It made me very strong. It made me very bitter, but it made me very proud and I knew that I had been set aside. I knew that, for whatever reason, whatever would come in my life, that I would be able to handle it. That, if I had gone through that, that I could handle anything. HUNTLEY: After high school, what did you do? LOCK: After high school I went to Tuskegee Institute. I graduated on Sunday afternoon and the next Sunday afternoon, I was leaving for college. That had nothing to do with West End. At Princeton Elementary School, in 5th grade, we knew where we were going to go to college. Our teachers had told us where we were going to go to college. We knew all about Tuskegee. While other students were procrastinating and wondering and trying to see if they were accepted, I knew in 5th grade where I was going to go to school. By the time we were in 7th grade I think our teachers had probably already filled out our applications for college in our minds. Mrs. Catherine Smith, Catherine Eileen Smith had gone to Tuskegee and she would say, " ; Class, these are the songs that you will sing at Tuskegee and these are the things that you will do at Tuskegee." ; And, of course, " ; This is what you' ; ll have to wear at Tuskegee." ; Everybody went to Tuskegee. HUNTLEY: So you were programmed for Tuskegee? LOCK: We were programmed. I never applied anywhere else. HUNTLEY: What was the transition like from your high school days to Tuskegee? LOCK: It was " ; Glory, Hallelujah!" ; It was wonderful to be around Black people, to be around people going to college. It was a new day. It was a proud day. It was just wonderful. HUNTLEY: Did you graduate from Tuskegee? LOCK: No, I didn' ; t. HUNTLEY: How long did you spend there? LOCK: I spent two years at Tuskegee. HUNTLEY: It' ; s very obvious that there are very fond memories of that. From Tuskegee where did you go? LOCK: From Tuskegee, I got married and I moved to Georgia to Atlanta. Then, I lived three years in Germany and from Germany I came back to Chicago. I finished Northeastern Illinois University. HUNTLEY: Now, you have a masters degree? LOCK: Yes. HUNTLEY: In what area? LOCK: In public administration and business. HUNTLEY: And you did that in Illinois? LOCK: No, the University of Texas, San Antonio. HUNTLEY: Well, that' ; s a tremendous story, because what we are seeing that' ; s happening with people who grew up in Birmingham and were involved in the Movement, it appears that just as you said, there' ; s a maturity there based upon those times that led you to be successful in other areas. I assume that' ; s because of the fortitude that you developed. LOCK: Well, I don' ; t know about successful, but you sure learn how to survive. You sure don' ; t know that " ; no" ; is in the vocabulary. You sure don' ; t know that " ; can' ; t" ; isn' ; t in the dictionary. You don' ; t know that you can' ; t do things. You certainly not intimidated by people because you face Satan himself everyday. That the world that they enjoy came at somebody' ; s sacrifice. My life was better because people died before I had to go through those doors. I' ; m saddened when I see West End High School now. I' ; m saddened by the way the children act today. That they don' ; t take their education seriously. I' ; m saddened, very saddened at the children' ; s mentality that they don' ; t know that they can achieve. I' ; m saddened when they don' ; t want to go to college. I' ; m saddened when they go to college and it' ; s not important to them. They must know that everything came at somebody' ; s sacrifice. That' ; s what I want them to know. Somebody bled, somebody cried and somebody died, for you. HUNTLEY: Very well stated. Thank you very much. LOCK: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CHLock1995.xml CHLock1995.xml
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Carrie Hamilton Lock
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Carrie Hamilton Lock discusses getting involved in the Movement by following her parents' example. She attended mass meetings and integrated West End High School.
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19951018L
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
West End High School
16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963
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1995-10-18
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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Catherine Burks Brooks
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5.4 April 29, 1996 Catherine Burks Brooks Interviewed on April 29, 1996 19960429B 0:55:08 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Freedom Rides, 1961 The Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee (Atlanta,GA.) Southern Christian Leadership Conference Parchman Farm Catherine Burks Brooks Horace Huntley Video 1:|18(7)|49(7)|73(9)|92(2)|115(3)|138(6)|167(12)|185(18)|201(3)|226(9)|239(1)|258(6)|281(1)|302(7)|320(2)|340(16)|370(10)|398(11)|423(11)|441(2)|466(10)|477(10)|490(6)|510(15)|525(12)|539(5)|559(3)|580(4)|594(1)|611(15)|622(11)|641(15)|653(8)|665(11)|683(13)|693(4)|709(5)|724(5)|748(6)|764(6)|779(15)|791(14)|809(1)|822(10)|842(16)|860(13)|870(16)|892(2)|922(2)|937(9)|944(8)|959(4)|970(4)|987(7) 0 https://youtu.be/xIlxoSxsfm4 YouTube video English 0 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Catherine Brooks for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College on April 29, 1996. 33.4810,-86.9089 17 Miles College, Fairfield, Alabama 33.5161, -86.8145 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute, Birmingham Alabama https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 30 Family and Early Education I would just like to start by asking you some general questions about your background. Were your parents from Birmingham? Catherine Burks Brooks talks about where her parents are from and growing up in Birmingham school systems. Sardis ; Sardis City (Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham family ; Birmingham Public Schools (Birmingham, Ala.) 165 Community Background Then, as you grew up, what do you remember about your neighborhood when you were in elementary school? Catherine Burks Brooks discusses growing up in Birmingham community. Alabama By-Products ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Stockham Valve ; Tarrant City Birmingham Public Schools (Birmingham, Ala.) 255 Blackness and High School Little school? I think at that time we were the largest Black school in the country. That's right. The Thundering Herd. She talks about her experience at Parker High School about being the first black majorettes, discussions about the difference between black, brown, and white, as well going to 3 elementary schools. Black ; Brown ; Lincoln ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; White Birmingham Public Schools (Birmingham, Ala.) 708 Getting Involved in The Movement at Tennessee State After you finished high school, what did you do? She talks about participating in The Movement, learning how to protest in peaceful demonstrations at Tennessee State University. Demonstrating ; Non-Violent Protest ; School ; Sit-in African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Civil rights demonstrations--Tennessee ; Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Tennessee State University 1056 The Freedom Ride This was during the Freedom Ride. Catherine Burks Brooks explains her Freedom Ride with seven of her friends from Nashville to Birmingham. American Baptist Theological Seminary ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Fisk University ; Tennessee State Univerisity Anniston (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.)--Maps ; Birmingham--Jail ; Bus Burning (Anniston,Ala.) ; Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Nashville (Tenn.)--Maps 36.1627, 86.7816. 33.5186, 86.8104 17 Nashville, Tennessee Birmingham, Alabama 1231 The Freedom Ride-Arrival in Birmingham, AL When you arrived in Birmingham, what was the reception? Her first trip with the Freedom Ride from Nashville to Birmingham, where they encountered Bull Connor who picked them up and took them up to the Tennessee/ Alabama border. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Birmingham Jail ; Birmingham News ; Black family ; Bus driver ; Bus Station ; Train Station Ardmore (Ala) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Bull Connor ; Cullman (Ala.) ; Freedom Rides, 1961 1567 The Freedom Ride- Return to Birmingham After Encounter With Bull Connor So you came back to Birmingham? Her second trip down to Birmingham where they lost their bus driver and waited 18 hours to find a new one. Bus Driver ; Jackson (Miss.) ; Kennedy, Robert F., 1925-1968 ; Montgomery (Ala.) Birmingham, Ala. ; Bull Connor ; Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1686 The Freedom Ride-Arrival in Montgomery What was the reception in Montgomery? After their group arrived in Montgomery they were swarmed by an angry mob and had to leave the bus to seek shelter and protection. angry mob ; black community ; black taxi cabs ; church ; police protection Bull Connor--Commissioner of Public Safety--Birmingham--Alabama ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Segregation in transportation 1985 The Freedom Ride-Arrival in Jackson, MS and onto Parchman Farm (Mississippi State Penitentiary) So, from the church did you go back and eventually get to Jackson, Mississippi? After arriving in Jackson, Mississippi, Catherine Burks Brooks and her friends were arrested, sent to Hines County Jail, and onto Parchment Penitentiary for 26-27 days. Mississippi jail ; Parchman farms ; Prison living conditions Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Hines County Jail (Miss.) ; Jackson (Miss.) ; Mississippi State Penitentiary ; Parchman (Miss.) 2319 Involvement and Formation of Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) Were you a member of SNCC? Catherine Burks Brooks involvement SNCC and help from organizations like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s Southern Christian Leadership Conference. King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Raleigh (N.C.) ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference ; The Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee (Atlanta,GA.) 2637 Involvement With Robert Williams, Head of NCAACP Monroe, NC Chapter Well, I was not with SNCC at that time. I was working at that time in the north. Catherine Burks Brooks talks about being involved with the President of the NAACP North Carolina branch, Robert Williams, and how he got in trouble with the organizations due to using less non-violent protesting practices. Kidnapping ; Marriage ; North ; Violent Protest King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Robert Williams, President of NAACP--Monroe, North Carolina 2817 Violence and Fear During Demonstrations Yes. But, backing up some. Before that, there were non-violent demonstrations. His group was protecting the non-violent demonstrators. Catherine Burks Brooks discusses the times during the movement where she felt most afraid. Fear ; Non-violent demonstrations ; Riot ; Shooting ; Sit-in Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Ardmore (Ala.) ; Bull Connor ; Nashville (Tenn.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 2960 Moving On From Movement, Start of New Life I think we have talked about probably up to 1963-64 or so. What happens after that period when you were so actively involved with SNCC and SCLC? How does that period of your life end? Do you simply drop out of the Movement? Or, now that you're living up north, you simply go back and you get a job? Catherine Burks Brooks talks about moving on from the movement and her Husband starting a business in Afro-Pick afterwards. Business method patents ; Combs ; Family business ; Make a living ; Race--Marriage Records Afro-Pick ; Detroit (Mich.) ; Lancaster (S.C.) ; Ottawa (Mich.) 3248 Recognition of Involvement in Movement from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Okay. Well, I just want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule to come and sit and talk with us because you have really enlightened us in relationship to the freedom rides and your activity. Catherine Burks Brooks receives recognition from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. for her Freedom Ride she was on. recognition ; scholarship ; students Freedom Rides, 1961 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Tennessee State University ; The Grand Opry (Nashville, Tenn.) 3249 Interview Conclusion Okay. Well, I just want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule to come and sit and talk with us because you have really enlightened us in relationship to the freedom rides and your activity. At some later date, we may want to sit down and talk with you again. Oral History Catherine Burks Brooks discusses getting involved with Movement after attending Tennessee State University. She participated in the Freedom Rides and spent almost 30 days in Parchman Farm (Mississippi State Penitentiary). She received recognition from Dr. King for her activism. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Catherine Brooks for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College on April 29, 1996. Thank you Ms. Brooks for taking time out of your schedule to come and sit with us today. BROOKS: You' ; re welcome. HUNTLEY: I would just like to start by asking you some general questions about your background. Were your parents from Birmingham? BROOKS: Yes, and that' ; s Catherine Burks Brooks. HUNTLEY: Okay. That' ; s important, because your classmates will say " ; Catherine Brooks? Who is that?" ; So, both of your parents were from Birmingham? BROOKS: No. They were originally from Alabama. They came out of Sardis, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Both were from Sardis? BROOKS: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? BROOKS: One brother and four sisters. HUNTLEY: You must have had a time? BROOKS: Oh, yes. And I was kind of like on the end. The youngest girl. HUNTLEY: You' ; re the youngest girl? BROOKS: That' ; s right. So, I had to really fight. HUNTLEY: Well, that may have something to do with your activities in the Movement that we' ; ll get to talk about a little bit later. BROOKS: It could have. I never really thought about that, but that could happen. Because the one that I was next to was something like 8 or 9 years older. And, so they were just going to push me around. But, that didn' ; t happen. HUNTLEY: I can tell. Were you born in Birmingham? BROOKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Where did you start elementary school? BROOKS: Shields, Alberta Shields in East Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Tell me just a bit about your parents. Where did they go to school and how much schooling did they have? BROOKS: Well, my father had virtually no schooling. They came, as I said, out of Sardis and my mother went to the 3rd grade. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did they do? BROOKS: My father worked for the Alabama By-Product. He was a machine operator. My mother was a wool and silk presser. HUNTLEY: So, she worked inside and outside the house? BROOKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, you had a hard-working family? BROOKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Then, as you grew up, what do you remember about your neighborhood when you were in elementary school? BROOKS: I remember it seems as if we all cared about each other. It was a working, poor community, but it was a working community. If my parents were not home, I knew where to go. Just a couple of doors down or next door to wait until my mother got off, if I was afraid to go into the house. That was one thing that really kind of stuck with me. That we were seeing after each other. HUNTLEY: What kind of occupations did people have in the community? BROOKS: Most of the men, as I can remember, either worked for the Alabama By-Product, Stockham Valve, and this is on Tallapoosa Street in East Birmingham, L& ; N, I think. HUNTLEY: The railroad? BROOKS: Yes. Or McClouds. HUNTLEY: What' ; s McClouds? BROOKS: Well, that was a factory. I think they made pipes or something at McClouds in Tarrant City. HUNTLEY: You had a lot of pipe factories in that area so that' ; s probably what that was. Where did you go to high school? BROOKS: I went to Parker. HUNTLEY: Parker High School. Where is that? I' ; ve heard of that little school someplace. BROOKS: Little school? I think at that time we were the largest Black school in the country. That' ; s right. The Thundering Herd. HUNTLEY: I think I' ; ve heard something about that. But, over at Wenonah, we didn' ; t pay much attention to you people at Parker. Were you active in extra-curricular activities at Parker? BROOKS: Yes. I was in the band and a number of other clubs. As a matter of fact, I never will forget Mr. Caswell use to call us his " ; three Blackies." ; I was a majorette. HUNTLEY: Is that right? BROOKS: Yes. And, even at our Black high school, at that time you know we were just letting Black girls become majorettes and I was one of the first Black majorettes at Parker. HUNTLEY: You were one of the first phenotypically Black majorettes at a Black school? BROOKS: Yes. Color black is what I mean. Dark. HUNTLEY: That' ; s interesting. What was that like? Did you have any difficulty as a result of having dark skin? BROOKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me how did that operate in that Black setting? BROOKS: Well, you know it' ; s been years since I' ; ve thought about that. It was always a challenge. It was always a fight. I was always willing to fight the fight and kept my head high even though we were dark. It was a little saying, what was that? HUNTLEY: " ; If you' ; re Brown, stick around..." ; BROOKS: Yes. " ; If you' ; re Brown, stick around, if you' ; re Black, get back." ; It was something like that. And, so I was determined not to get back. HUNTLEY: " ; If you' ; re White, you' ; re right." ; BROOKS: That' ; s right. " ; If you' ; re Brown, stick around. If you' ; re Black, get back." ; And, so I was determined not to get back. HUNTLEY: So, you put up a defense against that whole idea? BROOKS: That' ; s right. I did. And, I built a wall, which is a mess too, because you eventually have to tear it down. HUNTLEY: What do you mean? " ; You built a wall and, then, you eventually have to tear it down." ; BROOKS: Because you become hard, you become tough. You' ; re always waiting for something. You' ; re always waiting for a fight. HUNTLEY: You said that as a result of this attitude of people looking at Black as being negative, you put up a defense? BROOKS: Right. HUNTLEY: And, then you solidified that defense by fighting, when necessary? BROOKS: That' ; s right. And, then sometimes it may not have been necessary to fight. But, because of that you think it is necessary to fight. HUNTLEY: So, in effect, it becomes necessary all the time to fight, in your mind? BROOKS: That' ; s right. As one example I think of right now. I think we were in Cleveland or some parts of Ohio and we went to this restaurant and they told us to go upstairs. You know right away we' ; re thinking they want us to go upstairs because we' ; re Black. So, we' ; re going to put up a fight. No, it was just no seats downstairs. It' ; s that type of a thing. HUNTLEY: So that creates difficulties from both sides? BROOKS: Right. HUNTLEY: What was it like being one of the first " ; Black" ; majorettes? What kind of impact did that have on the rest of the school? Didn' ; t you say there were three of you? BROOKS: Yes, it was three of us. HUNTLEY: Out of how many? Maybe 8 or 10? BROOKS: Oh, no. It was more than that. We had three lines. I believe we had three lines and we may have had six in a line. So, that would give us 18. We either had two or three lines, something like that. HUNTLEY: What did your parents say about this kind of activity? Did they have any idea that this was happening at your school? As a result of your being dark-skinned that you had to put up with the kinds of things that you' ; re talking about?BROOKS: No. I don' ; t think they really had. If they did, they never expressed it. HUNTLEY: But it was well known in the school? BROOKS: Yes, of course. It was well known in the school and it could have been in the community, but as far as my parents talking about it or me talking to them about it, no, I just couldn' ; t remember. My mother was always willing to work from almost kin to kane to get me the things to measure up to be in these types of activities. She used to tell me I came feet first and I just been moving ever since. HUNTLEY: How did the teachers treat you in that regard? Were there any differences between the way the teachers actually treated light-skinned children versus dark-skinned children? BROOKS: I can' ; t pinpoint any particular teacher. But it seems as if the lighter skinned children received the better breaks or privileges. HUNTLEY: What instrument did you play? BROOKS: I was a majorette, I didn' ; t play an instrument. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. BROOKS: I was also in the elementary school band. I went to Lincoln also for a short period. HUNTLEY: So that was your area for a while, Lincoln to Parker Annex. Did you go to Parker Annex? BROOKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And, then on to Parker? BROOKS: No. Well, let' ; s back up a little bit. Our little school went from the 1st to the 4th. And, then from the 5th grade we had to go to another school. HUNTLEY: What other school was that? BROOKS: I went to Lincoln then. Then I went to Hudson, which was not that far from my house. It may have taken us 30 minutes to walk it. That' ; s how I was at Lincoln. Then, they built a new school in my area, Shields. Named after the original small school. So, you can say that I went to three elementary schools. HUNTLEY: What do you remember most about Parker? BROOKS: Well, we would say the band. I enjoyed the band. I remember my government teacher and I can' ; t remember her name, but I had a lot of respect for her. Of course, that was in the 12th junior and the 12th senior. One thing stopped with me. We did have Black History and I learned here recently that we no longer have that in our school, which I think is a shame. That was really helpful. I remember Major Brown. He also taught me history. He was very tough, and he was also the Football Coach. I remember once he threatened to pull the top of my hair out if I skipped a class once. I never skipped another class. You know I actually believed he was going to do that. HUNTLEY: Most people believed what Major Brown said at that time. BROOKS: Yes, he made a believer out of me. HUNTLEY: After you finished high school, what did you do? BROOKS: I went to Tennessee State in Nashville, Tennessee. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to go to Tennessee State? BROOKS: Well, I had a girlfriend in the neighborhood, Joyce Parker, and Joyce was going to Tennessee State at that time. I was thinking about a number of other schools, but I think that was probably one of my main reasons for deciding Tennessee State, because she seemed to have loved it and was having a nice time. I wanted to get away from home, too. I wanted to go off. HUNTLEY: You wanted to be independent? BROOKS: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: At Tennessee State were you involved with the band? BROOKS: Well, you wouldn' ; t believe it. At Tennessee State, I was too dark. But, of course, things have changed. I was not a majorette at Tennessee State. They were, what we called at that time, " ; high yellow." ; HUNTLEY: There were no dark majorettes at the time at Tennessee State? BROOKS: No. HUNTLEY: Did someone verbalize that to you or was that just something that was understood? BROOKS: It was understood, but someone did later. One of my close girl friends who was involved in the Freedom Ride with me, Lucretia Collins, who was a majorette also, but she was lighter. We talk about it now. HUNTLEY: The majorettes actually selected the people who would come aboard? BROOKS: No. That was the band teacher. HUNTLEY: The band teacher decided? BROOKS: Yes. And as a matter of fact, I even had a letter from Mr. Caswell to the band instructor there. HUNTLEY: We' ; ll have to pursue that discuss some other time because that' ; s a very interesting one. BROOKS: I had no idea we would get into this. HUNTLEY: What about other activities at Tennessee State? How did you get involved with the Movement? BROOKS: Well, my boyfriend was involved with the Movement. Curtis Murphy. He had been trained to participate in the sit-in movement. And, so they were holding their meetings down, near Fisk and we always had a run-in with the girls at Fisk and, so I said, " ; Hum, I just better go down here and see what' ; s going on." ; So that' ; s how I got involved. HUNTLEY: So, you become involved as a result of protecting your turf? BROOKS: I don' ; t know if I' ; d put it that strongly, but... HUNTLEY: Tell me what was your first involvement? BROOKS: My first involvement must have been a sit-in there at one of the lunch counters. I think it was some hamburger place, White Castle. I think it was a White Castle or something like that. HUNTLEY: How did that get started? What precipitated your desire to do and sit-in at White Castle? BROOKS: Well, of course, we could not eat there. They had been learning the non-violent way of doing this. I had been talking with him and they were recruiting students to go. HUNTLEY: So, he recruited you to come? BROOKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were you trained, or did you simply go and sit-in? BROOKS: I think I must have gotten my training later. I think I was just trained by him as to what... HUNTLEY: What you should do and what you should not do? BROOKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Do you actually remember that first time that you went to sit-in? How did it feel? What was going through your mind? BROOKS: Well, I don' ; t know if I actually remember the very first time. But, I do recall some of the times just saying, " ; Okay, am I going to be able to not do anything if someone spits on me?" ; HUNTLEY: How did you answer that? BROOKS: I think that was my constant thing, just being cool if someone...but it never happened though. HUNTLEY: No one ever accosted you? BROOKS: No. HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested there? BROOKS: Yes, I was arrested in Nashville. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances of the arrest? How did it happen? BROOKS: This was at one of the lunch counters. I don' ; t remember which one, but it was at one of the lunch counters. Of course, the policemen came in and asked us to leave. If you don' ; t leave, you' ; re under arrest. And, so, of course, we didn' ; t leave, and we were taken to jail. HUNTLEY: How long were you in jail? BROOKS: I believe it was just overnight. HUNTLEY: So, you were still in school at the time, right? BROOKS: Yes, I was still in school at the time. HUNTLEY: Did your parents know that you were demonstrating? BROOKS: I don' ; t believe they did. HUNTLEY: Did you ever tell them that during the time you were in school, that you were demonstrating? BROOKS: I' ; m almost sure I had to have told them after that. HUNTLEY: After you finished school maybe? BROOKS: Oh, no. During the time, because I was even put out of Tennessee State. HUNTLEY: You were? BROOKS: Yes. So, this was kind of over a stretch over period of time. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances of you being put out of Tennessee State? BROOKS: This was during the Freedom Ride. HUNTLEY: What happened? Why were you put out? BROOKS: I don' ; t know what was the charge. I don' ; t recall. But, when we came down here on the Freedom Ride. HUNTLEY: You were one of the Freedom Riders that left Nashville coming to Birmingham? BROOKS: Yes. When the bus was burned in Anniston, when CORE gave up the ride, and so, a number of us, that was kind of like the " ; Diehard Seven," ; I think we called ourselves, we said the ride must go on. And, so, then we took up the Freedom Ride. HUNTLEY: Okay. So, you picked it up as a result of the individuals being attacked in Anniston? BROOKS: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: Students at Tennessee State decided that they were going to do the same thing and pick up the ride so that it would not die? BROOKS: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: So, you rode from Nashville to Birmingham? BROOKS: That' ; s right. It was Fisk and ABT, the American Baptist Theological Seminary. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that ride? What do you remember about it? BROOKS: Oh, I remember almost everything about that ride. HUNTLEY: You boarded the bus in Nashville. Were there any problems in Nashville? BROOKS: No, there were no problems in Nashville. A lot of photographers. We had a fantastic send off. It must have been early, early morning. The fellow I eventually married came on that ride with us. I think it was about 11 of us. HUNTLEY: All Black? BROOKS: No. There were, I believe there were three Whites. One White fellow and two White girls. They were attending Fisk, I believe. HUNTLEY: They were attending Fisk at the time? BROOKS: Yes. And, the fellow, I' ; m not sure whether he was at Fisk or at Vanderbilt. He could have been at Peabody, one of those schools there. HUNTLEY: Were there any stops between Nashville and Birmingham? BROOKS: Yes. At the time, the police stopped us just before we got into Birmingham. My husband, which was Paul Brooks, was taken off of the bus and also the White fellow, because they were sitting together. They were taken to jail. HUNTLEY: They were arrested? BROOKS: They were arrested. HUNTLEY: Was this by a Birmingham policeman or state troopers? BROOKS: I don' ; t remember if it was state troopers or Birmingham. HUNTLEY: But this was before you got to Birmingham? BROOKS: Right. HUNTLEY: When you arrived in Birmingham, what was the reception? BROOKS: Well, we had all the policemen there and we were trying to go on to Montgomery and, then on into Jackson and these bus drivers refused to drive us. He refused to drive us any further. HUNTLEY: From Birmingham? BROOKS: That' ; s right. So, this was the time where we couldn' ; t find the bus driver. So, I think we were here for about 18...no, let me back up some. We were eventually taken off of the bus and, then taken to jail. Oh, Bull Conner said, " ; for our protection." ; Then, we were taken out of jail. It was around midnight. I' ; ll never forget that. Lucretia was with me. They came for us. The matron told us to get ready. they were going to take us back to Nashville. And, so we got up, put our clothes on and so, we weren' ; t putting our clothes on fast enough. I' ; ll never forget that. She came back and she said, " ; Didn' ; t I tell you all to get your clothes on?" ; So we said, " ; We didn' ; t ask to come in here, so we don' ; t have to rush." ; We didn' ; t rush. We took our time because we weren' ; t really interested in leaving. HUNTLEY: This was approximately nine of you at that time? BROOKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: How were you transported from the Birmingham jail back to Tennessee? BROOKS: When they came to pick us up, one of the White girls, I understand that Bull Connor had called her father, and her father had picked her up. I don' ; t know what happened to the other White girl. Whether they had sent her back home or what. And, so, Lucretia and I were refusing to leave. In our training we were taught to just go limp. And, so I refused to walk out. One of the guards picked me up and carried me out of the jail and put me in a car. It was a White fellow from the Birmingham News, I believe, and Bull Connor, and it seems as if we stopped in Cullman and picked up a man at the time that I assumed was a priest or a minister or something because he had a collar on. And, then they carried us and the fellows to the state line. The name of that little town was Atmore or Ardmore, Alabama, between Tennessee and Alabama. HUNTLEY: I know Atmore is south. BROOKS: So, it must be Ardmore. HUNTLEY: I' ; m not familiar with that town. BROOKS: Well, there' ; s a little town there right on the border. HUNTLEY: They put you out there? BROOKS: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: Did the Tennessee officials pick you up? BROOKS: No. Bull Connor told us that there was a train station and we could go back to Nashville. I told him, " ; We' ; ll see you back in Birmingham by high noon." ; So, you know, through being Black, and I guess I' ; m a little older than you, so I don' ; t know if you were taught this down the road, you' ; re kind of always taught how to survive and where to find the Black people. And it seems as it we were always told to go across the track. Some of the fellows left to find some Black families. And, they did. Now, understand there were only six Black families in that town, and, so the Lord was really with us. We did find one of those Black families. HUNTLEY: So, there were 5 or 6 of you? BROOKS: At that time, it had to have been. It had to have been 6, 7 or 8, something like that. HUNTLEY: Well, what did the Black family do? BROOKS: The man came to the door, and I could understand that now, and I understood it then, he was afraid to let us in. You know it had been on the news and everything. At that time, of course, we thought the Klan was coming once we found out that was not a bus station. Why would they put us out right there? And, so, I had always been taught to wake up the lady and, that she would probably, her mother instincts would probably take over. So, I figured if we talked loud enough and long enough and wake up his wife, that we were going to get in, so we did. They let us in, we called back to Nashville and Diane Nash, I' ; m quite sure you know of her. HUNTLEY: Sure. BROOKS: She was coordinating the Freedom Ride from Nashville, so we called her. They were wondering what had happened to us. She sent a car down. Leo Little was driving to pick us up and to bring us back to Birmingham. And, so we almost made it by high noon. HUNTLEY: So, you came back to Birmingham? BROOKS: Oh, no we didn' ; t go back to Nashville. HUNTLEY: So, when you came back to Birmingham you attempted to get on the bus again, right? BROOKS: We went to Rev. Shuttlesworth house and they called my mother to let her know that we were all right. They fed us and, then we went back to the bus station. I think that was when we were there for about 18 hours, waiting, trying to get a bus driver. And, I understand that was when Bobby Kennedy called down here and told them to give us protection and give us a driver. HUNTLEY: So, your mother didn' ; t know you were in Birmingham, the night before then? You didn' ; t call home? BROOKS: Yes, she knew that we were coming, but she didn' ; t know what had happened to us. Because in order to leave school, you know school was still going on at the time. HUNTLEY: Right. BROOKS: And, so, backing up some, we had to go to the Dean of Women to get permission. HUNTLEY: So, you actually got permission to participate? BROOKS: To leave school. But we were told her we weren' ; t coming for permission, that we were coming to tell her what we were going to do. And, so then, since we were going to tell her, she figured out a way how we could do it, and so, my mother had invited Lucretia, who was from Georgia, to come and visit me. HUNTLEY: So you were headed home and Bull Connor met you and decided that you were better suited to be back in Tennessee? BROOKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, upon your arrival back in Birmingham, you were here for 18 hours. Did you eventually get a bus driver to take you from Birmingham to Montgomery and on to Jackson? BROOKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: What was the reception in Montgomery? BROOKS: All hell broke loose. On our way down, it seemed to have been peaceful. We had police protection, we had helicopters flying over, but when we got to Montgomery, all the protection left. And it seems as if there were just a few White people standing around at the time. All of a sudden it looked like hell just broke loose. I don' ; t know where all of them came from. They were angry. They started in on the news photographers first. They started beating them. And, then, after that they started after us and that' ; s when Jim Swerd, I' ; m quite sure you' ; ve seen those pictures throughout the ages, was beaten, blood running everywhere. One of our congressmen, now, was on that bus, John Louis, who is Congressman John Louis, now. They were trying to put the girls in a cab, and I remember seeing some of the fellows jump over, which at that time to me look like it was a cliff, but it was a wall at the bus station. HUNTLEY: Is this the footage that is shown on the Eyes On The Prize series? BROOKS: It could be. HUNTLEY: There was a bus that was met in Montgomery and they suggest the same thing, that the police were there and all of a sudden they disappeared. BROOKS: Yes, that' ; s it. HUNTLEY: But, I know that you then were able to get the bus from Montgomery to Mississippi, right? BROOKS: Oh, no. That was a lot of action going on in between that time. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that action? What happened to the girls? BROOKS: Interesting question. Okay. There were 2 or 3 White girls. Now, one, her father had picked her up. We got this cab. At that time Blacks and Whites could not ride in the same cab. Blacks would go in a Black cab and Whites go in a White cab. So, the cab driver was afraid. He was saying that he could not carry us together. And, the mob was just there then. HUNTLEY: Were these the same girls that had been with you in Birmingham? That there parents had disappeared and you didn' ; t know where they were when you were going back to Tennessee? Did they meet you back in Birmingham? BROOKS: Now, there had been some people who joined us in Birmingham. Now, I think these were some Whites that came down to join us. Now, it may have been one of them may have been with us that left from Nashville. But, when Bull Conner carried us back to this little town on the state line, he did not take any of the White girls back, so they could have been just left there. But, at any rate, when we got to Montgomery and this cab driver was refusing to let these two Whites in. HUNTLEY: This was a Black cab driver? BROOKS: Yes. He was afraid. As a matter of fact, when he did get in, he was going to get out. I told him to get out, I' ; ll drive. But, then, when I looked down it was stick shift and I could not drive a stick shift. HUNTLEY: He got out? BROOKS: No, he would not. I told him to get out that I would drive, but, then I could not drive a stick shift. So, we pleaded with him to stay in and to just take us to a Black community, any Black community and we would get out. And, so he did. HUNTLEY: What did you do when you went to the Black community? BROOKS: We went to the Black community and we made some phone calls to let them know. I think we called back to Nashville to let them know where we were and that we were safe. We stayed with the people in the area that we were in. The people fed us and eventually someone picked us up and carried us and we ended up there at the church. I don' ; t know if that was the same night or the next night when they had to call in the reserves. When they was going to attack the church. HUNTLEY: So, from the church did you go back and eventually get to Jackson, Mississippi? BROOKS: From the church a number of us had some tests to take back at Tennessee State. So, I was one of the ones. You know we was still in school and it was toward the end of May. I went back to Tennessee State to take some final exams. HUNTLEY: This is in ' ; 61? BROOKS: Yes. Some of the group went on to Jackson. As a matter of fact, Lucretia went on to Jackson because she had finished her tests. As a matter of fact, she was graduating that next month. After I finished my test, then that' ; s when I went on the second Freedom Ride, straight on into Jackson. HUNTLEY: What was your reception when you arrived in Jackson? BROOKS: Captain Ray. I never will forget his name. Captain Ray arrested all of us on the spot. And, then we went on to the Hines County Jail. And, then from Hines County Jail we went to Parchment Penitentiary. HUNTLEY: Oh, you spent time at Parchment? BROOKS: I never will forget that. I can' ; t stand bugs today because of Parchment Penitentary. HUNTLEY: Tell me about Parchment. I' ; ve heard of Parchment. What was it like to be incarcerated? How long were you there? BROOKS: I' ; m thinking, it seems as if we had to stay in. We couldn' ; t stay in pass 30 days or we wouldn' ; t have been able to appeal our case. So, I' ; m thinking we stayed in right up to 25, 26, or 27 days, something like that. HUNTLEY: What was it like in Hines County? Do you remember how long you stayed there? How was that different from Parchment' ; s Farms? BROOKS: Well, in Hines County we were in a large room. It must have been 5 or 6 of us in that room. At least four. The fellows was upstairs. They used to sing to us at night, we would sing to them. There were bars around the whole cell. But, now in the penitentiary, it was two of us in a room, bunk beds, in a cell. We were locked down in both places, but the penitentiary was a little different, a little colder too. HUNTLEY: I' ; ve heard that during the summer they would turn the heat up and during the winter, they would turn the heat off? BROOKS: Well, this was summer. And, my memories of the Parchment, well first leaving Hines County, going to Parchment, we were in the back of an old truck and I can remember that terrible ride. I don' ; t know how far it was at the time, but it seems as if we were never going to get there. We were packed in like cattle, it was so many of us in this truck. Some were standing and some of us were trying to root in together. HUNTLEY: So, it was more than just the Freedom Riders? BROOKS: It must have been. It must have been other Blacks on there too. Of course, there were no Whites in there with us. So, when we got there, I don' ; t know why we had flip flops on, I didn' ; t leave Nashville with flip flops on. But, they took those. HUNTLEY: So, you had no shoes? BROOKS: That' ; s right. And I remember having to walk on the concrete and they kept the lights on at night. I remember that and the little bugs. In Nassau, Bahamas, we call them sand flies. It could have been some type of sand fly or just some type of little bug that can come through the screen. HUNTLEY: But, that was your most vivid memory? BROOKS: Yes, and, then, we hadn' ; t washed our hair in a long time. And, we used to cover up at night with the sheet and it seems as if the bugs would still get in the sheet with us. One thing I remember. It looks like it was the governor' ; s birthday or something and they gave us cake and it was real salty. I hadn' ; t thought about that in years. HUNTLEY: So, they added salt to the cake? BROOKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you do any work? BROOKS: No. We didn' ; t do any work. Now, some of those later, that went on the farm, did work. HUNTLEY: You were finishing up your senior or junior year? BROOKS: That was my senior year. HUNTLEY: Were you a member of SNCC? BROOKS: Yes, I helped to form SNCC. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. You helped to form SNCC, that' ; s important. Initially they had a meeting in North Carolina. BROOKS: And, we had another in Atlanta, so I was with that one in Atlanta. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that experience. What was it like starting an organization that would become world renowned? BROOKS: What I remember about SNCC was just being so excited to see all of the students from look like around the world, I guess it might have been just around the south. HUNTLEY: Black and White students? BROOKS: Yes, Black and White students. And the changes that we were going to make. Our philosophy and the philosophy of the adult group then, at that time. There was an adult group with the SCLC, Dr. King' ; s organization. It was just how we were going to change the situation for the Blacks. HUNTLEY: So, there was a real urgency for change? BROOKS: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: And, being young at that time, you felt you could change the world? BROOKS: Oh, yes, we could change it overnight. HUNTLEY: How was the chemistry between the younger people of SNCC and those older folk in SCLC? BROOKS: Well, we had more contact at that time with the Nashville adult, that was Dr. Calley Miller Smith. This SCLC at that time was not, they were just getting started so we didn' ; t really have that much contact at that early part with them. Our strong contact was with the Nashville Movement, adult movement that became a part of SCLC. And, so, they didn' ; t want us to get hurt and they wanted us to just move a little slower. Of course, we were ready to go then because we were going to do it overnight. We used to call a meeting and meet early in the morning because we knew a lot of them was not going to get up and come to a meeting and we would have passed things. But, I can remember looked like C. T. Vivian, of course, was there at the time and he was just going to change right with us overnight. HUNTLEY: Did James Foreman have any involvement in that part of the struggle that you were involved in? BROOKS: You' ; re talking about with CORE? No. He was not involved at that time. Now, he came on maybe a year or so later. How we met him was in Chicago. And, this was after I got out of jail in Mississippi. I went through Nashville and picked up some of my things and sent the rest of them on back to my mother here in Birmingham. We went to Chicago to raise money. He was involved then with the Fayetteville, Tennessee or Arkansas. HUNTLEY: North Carolina. BROOKS: He was involved with that. And, so then some of us thought that he would do well with SNCC at that time. HUNTLEY: So, you all sort of recruited him? BROOKS: Yes, to come with SNCC. HUNTLEY: Well, how long did you work with SNCC? BROOKS: Now, I got married also during that time. So we were with SNCC and Dr. King' ; s movement because SNCC didn' ; t have any money. The adult group had the money. Not that we were with the adult group because they had the money, but they could support the programs. We were with both. I guess it must have been about three years. Maybe 2 to 3 years. HUNTLEY: SNCC was organized in 1960 and, then in ' ; 61 the Freedom Rides came through and SNCC had recruited students to go into Mississippi and in ' ; 62, ' ; 63 and ' ; 64 particularly with the Summer Project? BROOKS: Yes, the summer project and the voter registration? HUNTLEY: Right. BROOKS: Well, I was not with SNCC at that time. I was working at that time in the north. HUNTLEY: Where in the north? BROOKS: A number of us felt that we needed to have been involved in the economic side of it. And, then, there was some that felt, you know that was working over on this end. And, so, I was in Ohio, in Detroit, in Chicago. And, then, even down with Robert Williams. HUNTLEY: In North Carolina? BROOKS: In North Carolina. We went down to see... HUNTLEY: Robert Williams, being the president of the Monroe, North Carolina branch of the NAACP believed in the necessity to defend oneself? BROOKS: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: He got in trouble with the national NAACP as a result of that. Were you involved with him at that particular time? BROOKS: When you say involved with him at that particular time, we were down there. HUNTLEY: So, you were going to different places assisting people with different kinds of things that they were doing? BROOKS: That' ; s right. He asked for help. HUNTLEY: Okay. BROOKS: Dr. King, at that time, and Paul Brooks, which we got married out of Robert' ; s house. They was asked for help. Paul went to Dr. King and asked him if he could go down and see what was going on down there. And, so that' ; s how a number of us then went down there to help Robert. As a matter of fact, we were down there when he had to leave the country. When he was accused of kidnaping a couple. HUNTLEY: That' ; s very interesting because, of course, at that particular time, the Movement is sort of escalating. It' ; s becoming more aggressive. BROOKS: That' ; s right. And, we are really skipping here now, too. HUNTLEY: Yes. In terms of how that whole process was going, in 1960 was non-violent, direct action...he had made a decision that he was going to defend himself and the community. That created a problem in that organization anyway. And, then he had to leave North Carolina. Were you guys there when he actually left? BROOKS: Yes. But, backing up some. Before that, there were non-violent demonstrations. His group was protecting the non-violent demonstrators. We were there during that riot. As a matter of fact, I think that was my second time of being afraid, when I called Dr. Kelly Miller Smith to tell him at that time what was going on and that they need to get someone in there because we were down under the bed. There was a lot of shooting going on. HUNTLEY: What was the first time that you were afraid? BROOKS: Well, I think I was a little afraid when Bull Connor put us out at a building on the state line, in Ardmore, AL, and told us it was a train station, and we could go back to Nashville, TN. We found out that the building was not a train station but a warehouse. HUNTLEY: Where they dropped you off? BROOKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were you involved in any of the demonstrations in Birmingham? BROOKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: During the April-May, 1963, were you here then? BROOKS: No. My time was before that. This had to have been, as a matter of fact, I called my brother the other day to ask him because I was talking to a lady and she couldn' ; t pinpoint the year I was talking about. This was before we came in here on the freedom ride. So, this had to be ' ; 59 or ' ; 60. I was arrested at Loveman' ; s. My brother, Louis Burks was the look-out. HUNTLEY: What were you arrested for? BROOKS: Sitting in at the lunch counter. HUNTLEY: You and a number of others? BROOKS: No. HUNTLEY: Were you alone? BROOKS: I don' ; t know if there were a number of others at that lunch counter. But, then I' ; m thinking that there was a number of places that we were going into that particular day. I think I was just sent into Loveman' ; s. HUNTLEY: Was this as a result of the Alabama Christian Movement? BROOKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Rev. Shuttlesworth? BROOKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And, you were arrested? BROOKS: Right. And, we went to trial. HUNTLEY: Do you remember how long you were in jail at that time? BROOKS: I' ; m thinking it was overnight. HUNTLEY: I think we have talked about probably up to 1963-64 or so. What happens after that period when you were so actively involved with SNCC and SCLC? How does that period of your life end? Do you simply drop out of the Movement? Or, now that you' ; re living up north, you simply go back, and you get a job? BROOKS: Well, we don' ; t drop out, we move on. My husband, at that time, we got married in a little town called Lancaster, South Carolina. As a matter of fact, they have on my marriage certificate " ; White." ; They had to cross it out and put " ; Colored" ; on there because when he called in he had been out at East St. Louis, I guess he sounded like he was White. But, we felt that we needed a financial base. Then, we went looking into ways that we could make and raise money. He invented the Afro-pick and, then, he went into business. We moved onto that and try to get the business off the ground, training Blacks, attending meetings and reprogramming. HUNTLEY: You had mentioned earlier that some people continued in the direction they were going but you saw that as a necessity for developing something economic? BROOKS: Right. HUNTLEY: Were you successful in doing that, in terms of developing something that would be long lasting? I know if you developed the Afro-pick, that meant something pretty substantial. BROOKS: It was at the time. It is not, of course, we' ; re not producing it now. As a matter of fact, it was virtually taken. But we made money from it. We put a number of people to work. A number of people worked with us developed things to do on their own. At one time we had three shifts going. But, we eventually manufactured it in Ottawa, Michigan. We started in Detroit and he received a patent on it. Any comb that was made at that time, the Afro-pick with the cover on it. If it was not ours, it was violating our patent, and you had a lot of them who did and who made good money from it. Now, we made money also, but not the type of money that should have been made from it, and not the type of things that we thought that we was able to do with it and we was fighting the big boys. It was a hard fight and it was a long fight, too. HUNTLEY: I know as a result of your activities in the Movement, you received a placard of some sort from Dr. King, is that correct? BROOKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Would you tell me just a bit about that? BROOKS: This was received after the Freedom Ride. Dr. King had a meeting for us, and these were the students who participated in the freedom ride. I think it was all of us throughout the south. I don' ; t remember. But, this was in Nashville, and it looks like it was at the Grand Old Opry. As a matter of fact, Mary Makeba was there. We all received a $500 scholarship. So that' ; s what I ended up finishing Tennessee State on. HUNTLEY: Well, you' ; ve had quite an eventful life in relationship to the Movement. Is there anything that we have not covered that you would just like to mention or talk about? People will view this from time to time. BROOKS: I can' ; t come up with anything, right off hand. I think we just about hit all of it. HUNTLEY: Okay. Well, I just want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule to come and sit and talk with us because you have really enlightened us in relationship to the freedom rides and your activity. At some later date, we may want to sit down and talk with you again. BROOKS: All right. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. BROOKS: You' ; re welcome. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CBBrooks1996.xml CBBrooks1996.xml
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Catherine Burks Brooks
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Catherine Burks Brooks discusses getting involved with Movement after attending Tennessee State University. She participated in the Freedom Rides and spent almost 30 days in Parchman Farm (Mississippi State Penitentiary). She received recognition from Dr. King for her activism.
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19960429B
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
Freedom Rides, 1961
The Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee (Atlanta,GA.)
Southern Christian Leadership Conference
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1996-04-29
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video
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Betty Hanson
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Charles Morgan Jr.
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Civil rights lawyers
Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka
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5.4 February 24, 1995 Charles Morgan Jr. Interviewed on February 24, 1995 19950224M 1:20:31 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Raines Whittaker Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Watergate Affair, 1972-1974 Civil rights lawyers Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka Charles Morgan Jr. Betty Hanson Video 1:|1(2)|39(14)|63(3)|81(5)|109(7)|127(1)|144(12)|162(12)|177(7)|195(5)|210(16)|225(2)|244(5)|266(11)|281(14)|302(1)|317(6)|332(11)|352(8)|365(8)|384(7)|397(10)|411(8)|431(8)|447(2)|460(11)|473(3)|486(13)|509(10)|528(13)|549(1)|564(2)|590(5)|624(2)|643(5)|658(2)|668(9)|680(12)|691(4)|715(2)|728(13)|746(8)|760(11)|771(10)|787(3)|801(6)|812(6)|823(5)|834(2)|845(10)|863(3)|876(16)|898(13)|912(7)|929(9)|946(10)|967(1)|981(7)|993(10)|1006(3)|1022(9)|1034(10)|1045(15)|1062(2)|1073(13)|1086(3)|1103(8)|1116(6)|1130(10)|1143(12)|1161(2)|1182(4)|1194(11)|1208(5)|1222(11)|1233(12)|1247(1)|1265(9)|1278(8)|1295(2) 0 https://youtu.be/Yb4hcSL2LVs YouTube video English 61 Beginning of Interview Just for the record, Chuck, give me your name. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute http://www.bcri.org Website for the BCRI 67 Biographical Information And you were born where? He grew up in an upper middle class white community. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Southern States--History 115 Family Status And, so, that's why your family moved there? His father worked for National Life and Accident Insurance Company, which is the work that brought his family to Birmingham. Kentucky Birmingham (Ala.) ; Industrial life insurance ; Southern States--History 230 Education Okay. You went to high school, then, when you got here. He attended the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa. College students ; University of Alabama 276 University Desegregation Okay, but you got interested the minute you got down there in student politics. He was supportive of the Brown v. Board of Education decision but wasn't yet a public figure when it occurred. Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka ; University of Alabama Alabama--History ; College integration 376 Politics in Alabama Except race. He sees Alabama as a progressive state and supported democratic politics. Folsom, James Elisha ; Wallace, George C. (George Corley), 1919-1998 Alabama--History ; Political parties--Southern States 567 Steel Workers and Race This was a big labor center. Race relations in organized labor was central to workers' struggles. AFL-CIO Birmingham (Ala.) ; Iron and steel workers--Labor unions ; Race relations in the United States 637 Trajectory of Political Education So, you, then, became, can I fairly say this? As his politics developed through law school, he noticed the impact that WW2 had on Black soldiers returning. World War II African American soldiers ; African Americans--Segregation ; University of Alabama. School of Law 768 Race after World War II But Chuck, if these people came back from the second world war— Birmingham was a segregated city that soldiers had to return to. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Segregation--United States ; United States. Supreme Court 852 Effects of Brown v. Board of Education Birmingham followed the rest of the south in resisting desegregation. Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Iron and steel workers--United States ; Segregation--United States 1026 Working towards Desegregation Let's go back to Tuscaloosa and the Autherine Lucy case because you, in your book. He wanted to assist Authurine Lucy in attending the University of Alabama to desegregate it. Segregation in higher education--United States ; Tuscaloosa (Ala.) ; University of Alabama 1105 Involvement in Politics and Law How did you begin to work with people like Orzell Billingsley and Arthur Shores? He was involved with the Young Democrats and began to be known for his beliefs. University of Alabama ; Young Democrats of America 1250 Practicing Law Alright, what was the first confrontation that...? He started a law practice and, because of his politics, began to defend cases. Alabama--History ; Civil rights lawyers 1395 Becoming a Well-Known Lawyer Deal with that a little bit. While a lawyer, he was also involved in the Young Men's Business Club and associated with various politicians. Alabama Council on Human Relations ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Political parties--United States--History--20th century 1689 White Resentment for His Work I know. Stop right there though. Because of his work, white people, especially in Birmingham, resented him. Alabama--History ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Race relations 1756 Conscious Decision for Civil Rights Cases Stop right there. What made you...? As a white lawyer, he saw himself as one of the few who consciously chose to defend civil rights cases. American Bar Association Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights lawyers ; Civil rights movement 1913 Consequences of Defending Civil Rights But, Chuck, you suffered a lot financially, in a lot of different ways and yet you kept plowing ahead. Because of his civil rights work, his life was threatened and he had to adjust his life accordingly. Alabama--History ; Civil rights lawyers ; Self-defense 2120 Getting the Black Vote and Jury Let's talk about some of the most famous cases. He saw that it was necessary for Black people to be able to vote and serve on juries for them to have any power in society. American Civil Liberties Union. Southern Regional Office African Americans--Civil rights ; Alabama--History ; Segregation--Law and legislation 2472 Working for Racial Justice Before we get to that, also— He worked on legal cases to desegregate juries, prisons, and voting across the state. American Civil Liberties Union Alabama--History ; Civil rights lawyers ; Segregation--Law and legislation 2859 ACLU Work in Atlanta But, talk a little bit about where you were at that time. He was working with the ACLU in Atlanta when Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed. American Civil Liberties Union ; Atlanta (Ga.) ; Civil rights lawyers ; United States. Civil Rights Act of 1964 3078 Social Climate after Sixteenth St. Church Bombing Chuck, let's go back to 1963. He was deeply bothered by the 16th St. church bombing. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Racism--United States--History ; Violence--United States--History 3225 Practicing Law with Black Lawyers Let's talk a little bit about practicing law in Birmingham— He worked closely with two Black lawyers in Birmingham during years of segregation. Birmingham Bar Association African American lawyers ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights lawyers ; United States--Race relations--History 3639 Defending Vietnam War Cases Yeah, right, but you might very well have seen things differently— While working with the ACLU, he saw the ways that the Vietnam War impacted the Civil Rights Movement. American Civil Liberties Union ; Civil rights lawyers ; Civil rights movement ; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Protest movements--United States 3969 Perception of the Anti-War Movement But you took individual cases, Chuck. He reflects on different civil rights actors and their overlap with the anti-war movement. Civil rights lawyers ; Civil rights movement ; Race relations in the United States 4242 Involvement in Watergate Case Okay, but then the other famous cases... He was a lawyer defending the Democratic Party during the Watergate case. American Civil Liberties Union. Washington Office ; Civil rights lawyers ; Political parties--United States--History ; Watergate Affair, 1972-1974 4465 Looking Forward to the Next Social Change Chuck, here it is February 1995. He is skeptical of the political parties but finds importance in democratic ideals. Democracy--United States ; Political parties--United States--History 4633 Progress of Race Relations Do you think the social revolution, looking back— He sees society as better off than it was and access to power as necessary for further progress. American society and culture ; Political parties--United States ; Race relations in the United States Oral History Charles Morgan Jr. discusses his legal career, involvement in civil rights cases and his work with the ACLU. He also covers his iWork defending the Democratic Party in the Watergate case. HANSON: Just for the record, Chuck, give me your name. MORGAN: Charles Morgan, Jr. HANSON: And you were born where? MORGAN: 1930, across the river from Cincinnati, Ohio. HANSON: And you grew up, your early years... MORGAN: The first fifteen years in Kentucky. HANSON: And you came to Birmingham. Just give me a little background. MORGAN: In 1945. HANSON: Okay. Your father did what? MORGAN: He was the manager of the National Life and Accident Insurance Company. HANSON: And when you moved to Birmingham, you lived where? MORGAN: Why, Mountain Brook. HANSON: You say that as if there was no other place. MORGAN: Well, there was certainly no other place at the time that anybody in their right mind wanted to live. HANSON: Why was that? MORGAN: Because it was a precious little kingdom. It was a nice little, upper middle class, very upper middle class, White community. And it was understood that people who lived there were socially acceptable. It contained two country clubs and lot of White folk. HANSON: And, so, that' ; s why your family moved there? MORGAN: My family was there because it was the best residential section in town. HANSON: Did your father feel very much a part of the White power structure? MORGAN: No. HANSON: Talk about that just a little bit so we get some background. I' ; m trying to find out... MORGAN: In the first place, the last thing in the world that my father would have thought of in moving to Birmingham was something called, quote, ' ; the White power structure,' ; end quote. I doubt that many people in Birmingham thought of themselves as power structure. Many people in Birmingham thought of themselves as White or Black, and the power structure in Birmingham was pretty clearly defined. It was United States Steel. HANSON: Did your father sell insurance to United States Steel? Is that what brought him here? I' ; m trying to get a little background, Chuck, to come to your attitudes. MORGAN: No, he worked for the National Life and Accident Insurance Company out of Nashville, Tennessee. My father was born in the mountains of Kentucky. My mother was born in Paducah. Paducah was in western Kentucky. That' ; s more the landed noblesse oblique. Where my father was born, there were no slaves and no slave history, so one of the best things he could do in this entire world was to get out of the place that he was born, literally in a cabin which was in a suburb of, I guess, Lackey, which would have been a suburb of Allen, which would have been a suburb of Prestonburg. So he was quite interested in doing that, and he hit the road and got himself a job and worked his way up inside of the National Life and Accident Insurance Company which was out of Nashville. HANSON: You came here and you were approximately fifteen [years old], correct? MORGAN: Yes. Incidentally, they had a large industrial insurance business. Industrial insurance was insurance in the south that was generally sold to Black folks, whether it was that company or even a few Black owned insurance companies. And so, a person who worked for such an insurance company or, ultimately, managed it had to know an awful lot about living conditions amongst Black folks. Go ahead. HANSON: Okay. You went to high school, then, when you got here. Three years, two years... MORGAN: I went to high school. I went to Birmingham University School and I went to Ramsay High School from which I graduated. HANSON: Then you went to the University of Alabama. MORGAN: Yes. HANSON: Why did you do that as opposed to going up east like a lot of your contemporaries did? Why did you go to Tuscaloosa? MORGAN: Well, I didn' ; t even think about going up east, and not a lot of my contemporaries did. Some of them did. The University of Alabama was the state university. I was out of school a bit early. I had skipped a grade some place down the line and I was, I suppose, 17 or whatever and I started out at the University. It was the state university and it was a fine place to go. I didn' ; t even consider the other places. HANSON: Okay, but you got interested the minute you got down there in student politics. I mean... MORGAN: Well, it wasn' ; t that moment. No, I didn' ; t do that the first minute I got there. It took a while. I was interested in student politics because that was the thing in the State of Alabama to be interested in. HANSON: And you wanted to be a politician yourself? MORGAN: Well, I don' ; t think that' ; s true. No, I don' ; t think that I wanted to be a politician. I was just interested in politics. HANSON: Deal with those years in Tuscaloosa, particularly, because that just precedes the Autherine Lucy entrance. But, were you in Tuscaloosa at the time the Supreme Court decision came down, Brown v. The Board of Education? MORGAN: Sure, I started at the University of Alabama at 1947. I left the University of Alabama in 1955. Brown v. Board was 1954. Autherine Lucy had filed suit before that. HANSON: Talk a little bit about those years, Chuck. I mean you took a very strong position in favor of Brown. You took a strong position in favor of Autherine Lucy. MORGAN: Well, that' ; s right. But you see, I didn' ; t have a strong pulpit to speak from. I mean, a strong position did not mean that I was suddenly going to broadcast nationwide and say, ' ; Hi there, folks, this is a kid at the University of Alabama that favors Brown v. Board.' ; But people at the University knew generally that not only I, but many others--Whites--thought that the outcome in Brown v. Board should be precisely what it was, that desegregation was unconstitutional. There were a goodly number of White folks even though many people today don' ; t remember, don' ; t want to, or weren' ; t there... A good many folks in Alabama were pretty liberal. You' ; ve got to remember Alabama was far more liberal than most northern states on most issues. HANSON: Except race. MORGAN: No, I don' ; t, I don' ; t give that away either. I think that there were a lot of northern states which, starting in about 1948 with the race of Franklin Roosevelt' ; s presidency over the years and Harry Truman' ; s campaign on the civil rights platform, had decided that there was something called civil rights and they had to take a position, so they took a position in favor of it and of them. Now, in Alabama, they took a position generally against it. Alabama seceded from the Democratic Party when Harry Truman was nominated in 1948. I remember that. HANSON: You were there, were you not? MORGAN: The Dixiecrat Convention was here and my father attended the thing and all that sort of stuff and everything and here on out. But, you see, what happened in Alabama, you always had very...Alabama was far to the left of most states in the Union with respect to its senatorial representation, members of the house and, in nineteen hundred and forty six [1946], its governor. HANSON: You' ; re talking now about Jim Folsom? MORGAN: Why, of course. HANSON: And that' ; s the one that you worked very hard for. That was your first political campaign of consequence. MORGAN: No, no, I was still in school, still in high school and as far as I was concerned if Folsom was never...Folsom was never respectable inside the precious little kingdom nor was he ever respectable inside any other Birmingham industrial centers of power. But, Folsom was a person that I saw when I was sixteen years old, when he first...I guess that was his first successful run and I can remember him running. I thought he was kind of a funny fellow. I mean, after all, he' ; d lie down and do anything else it took to get publicity or be in the newspapers. But, he never said he hated anybody, and he always said quite the contrary. So, I think I and a goodly number of people who were in Mountain Brook didn' ; t talk about being for Jim Folsom, we didn' ; t even know that race was a major issue at the time. But, that' ; s what Folsom did, and then it came to the ' ; 48 convention and he led the loyalists. So, by 1948 when I was at the University of Alabama, I knew there was a difference between Loyalists and Dixiecrats. And soon, along the way, I had to make up my mind whether I was on the one side or the other, and a number of us made up our minds that we were on the side of the loyalists and I wasn' ; t at all isolated or alone in that. The entire Hill-Sparkman organization--even though Hill and Sparkman were not noteworthily to the left on the race question--the entire Folsom operation, everybody in the state made a decision with respect to all the loyal democrats. They had to know that they were on the side of the political party that included the Black folks and did so nationally. Now, many of them wrestled mightily to get free of that. George Wallace was a Loyalist. He and George Hawkins, whose campaign I worked in and managed later and worked on in ' ; 58, all those kinds of people that were around.... This was a big labor center. I mean, you can' ; t look around Birmingham, Alabama and not understand that there were disputes between laboring people who were Black and those who were White. And, the one thing the steel workers and the CIO unions had to do was to get rid of that rivalry between the two. And--. HANSON: Say that again. Get rid of the rivalry, or sort of put it...stimulate it so that Blacks and Whites would be working against each other? MORGAN: Not...the steel workers. The steel workers wanted them working together. HANSON: Okay, you' ; re talking about the steel workers. MORGAN: I mean, White folks, some of the times when White plant owners and others would have a strike or something of the White workers, they would try to bring Black folks in as strike breakers and sometimes they were successful and that made them very unpopular in that circumstance too. The only way that you organize in the mine workers or the steel workers was to make sure that racial barriers did not exist so that they couldn' ; t run in strike breakers. This was not the conservative city that everybody sees. It was conservative in the state... The state itself was conservative as race is the measure, but on other issues, it was far to the left of much of the country. HANSON: So, you, then, became, can I fairly say this? First, before you got involved as a civil rights attorney, you became very much an economic kind of liberal. MORGAN: By the time I graduated from the University of Alabama Law School, I taught a course four times called American Economic History. I didn' ; t just wake up one day and say, ' ; Hey, I like economics,' ; or whatever it is. But, I actually did that as I was going through school. Now, I was always interested in that. I developed a certain degree of scholarship at the University of Alabama because I had to. I had been too interested in politics and other things. So, I finally had to make almost all ' ; A' ; s' ; for four or five semesters to get an average that could get me into law school. And, when I got to law school, it became a habit, so I did the same thing in law school. I was an honor student in the law school. I' ; ve had different interests in life and as they have approached me, then, sometimes the world has been interested in what I was interested in. Sometimes, it hasn' ; t. That hasn' ; t bothered me too much. I' ; ve just had to move through those things. I could always look at Alabama a little differently than a lot of folks did because I knew some of the contrasts that existed in it. But, when you grow up in post World War Two and you had Jim Folsom as governor--and he was not going to cuss the Black folks--and you had a Lister Hill and a Sparkman-- You started off, I guess, with senator Bankhead along the way. And, you had all these people and these were returning veterans of World War Two. You know, one of the wonderful things World War Two did for an awful lot of people that is forgotten today is that it told them that there was such a thing as democracy and that Hitler was a racist and that Mussolini was a fascist and the Nazis were on the other side and the Japanese, of course, were of another race. It was more comfortable fighting them, no doubt. But, the fact of the matter is that these people were fascist totalitarians. And, a lot of young men came back from the war and they went to the University of Alabama and I' ; m sure other southern campuses, too, but certainly in Alabama, and those folks came back and they had lived in a world whereby they had been defending what they thought was democracy. Many of them saw that what they were living in was not. I wasn' ; t alone in that. HANSON: But Chuck, if these people came back from the second world war--and that' ; s both Blacks and Whites, because Truman did desegregate the army, that was the first time-- MORGAN: That' ; s right, but the Truman desegregation of the army wasn' ; t in the middle of a pitched battle during World War Two. But go ahead. HANSON: Yes, it came afterwards. But, the important thing was there was that change. Those veterans came back, both White and Black, but they came back and went to school and by 1954 came this Supreme Court decision and everything changed. I mean the--what you call the liberal state or the liberal city, closed its doors, did it not? I mean it said, ' ; We shall not desegregate our public schools.' ; MORGAN: I don' ; t think I' ; ve ever accused Birmingham of being a liberal city. HANSON: I thought you said that it was a lot more liberal than the rest of the state in everything but race. MORGAN: Oh, you' ; re talking about with organized labor. Yes, until you saw the people who were actually living at the country clubs and running the town, I mean owning it. HANSON: Okay, so there was... MORGAN: Except for Pittsburgh people. I mean, Pittsburgh owned the place, lock, stock and mill. But the rest of the folks around here all did business with Pittsburgh, so they were pretty conservative. But, inside the other segments of the society where laboring people worked, 25,000 of them, 50,000 in unions and in mines, those folks were not exactly what you called people who worshipped at the altar of mammon as you' ; d say. HANSON: What about...let' ; s take that topic and I want to go back to Tuscaloosa again and the Autherine Lucy situation. But let' ; s take that ' ; 54 situation. Everything actually changed then in this city. There seemed to be a wall that came down and said, " ; We are not going to change.' ; Atlanta didn' ; t take that approach. Why do you think Birmingham did? MORGAN: Every city took that approach in the south. The entire South took that approach. When the cotton curtain [went up], which had always been there anyway, it just was molded into a wall when Brown v. Board came because people had been making up their minds for years before Brown v. Board. And, segregationist politicians, who were generally representative of the rich, the well borne and the able, certainly moved in 1954, as they had in 1948 when they used the race question to take the democratic party away and they did exactly the same thing then. Now, at that point, you had certain noted politicians, Bull Conner--Theopholis Eugene, I think, was his given name--and all those people, and they were really pawns for a goodly number of white folks whose names I could mention. I think I won' ; t right now. HANSON: Why? MORGAN: Because I don' ; t choose to. HANSON: All right. MORGAN: But these folks were in the area and they were conservative beforehand, and they were conservative after that. But, the race issue gave them something really to talk about, because now they could talk in terms of segregated schools and all of the phrases they might have used. I remember one deacon [saying], ' ; Niggers have taken over your school. Niggers had taken over your churches. Niggers had taken over all those kinds of things,' ; and, consequently, they had great power and that was true not just of Birmingham. That was true across much of the South. Birmingham was always rawer and tougher than the rest of the south. Atlanta had a business community and a semblance of an educational community inside the city and you had in Birmingham-- You didn' ; t have much of that. People who did business here did business through U.S. Steel and did business with U.S. Steel. If you mined coal, you sold it some place. If you were an ore miner or if you owned the ore mine, you got rid of it there if U.S. Steel didn' ; t already own it. And, all of the rest of the steel companies did. This was just that place. We' ; re talking about 50,000 folks around here. HANSON: So you' ; re saying that this cry against Black folks fell on very fertile ground, because people were built with lack of education or whatever the case may be. MORGAN: And, traditionally, if possible, when White labor went on a strike, Black folk would-- They tried to bring Black folks in and convicts and prison labor sometimes to break the strike. And that didn' ; t--There was not a unity in working together. Only a couple of labor unions managed to put that together and work together so they could get organized. They did a good job at that. HANSON: Let' ; s go back to Tuscaloosa and the Autherine Lucy case because you, in your book, One Man, One Voice site the fact that you had called Autherine Lucy when she came, and she mentioned that she heard from this young White man and you were the one that called her. But the University didn' ; t do anything towards bringing her in. Did you want to do something about bringing her into the University? MORGAN: Yes, but you see, I mean, there' ; s nothing that I would.... I mean I' ; m not....Let me think. To ask the question in this time and to think about the question say in nineteen hundred and forty seven [1947] through nineteen hundred and fifty five [1955], would I have wanted to bring her to the University of Alabama? Sure. But, would I have wanted her to enter the University of Alabama? Sure. But, would I want to have a means to do that? Sure. And did I have any conceivable means to do that? No. The only thing I had was I had some influence on the campus from time to time in the ways that some people did, and I could just assure her that we would have that matter worked out when she got admitted. That everybody would be a peaceful admission and it wouldn' ; t be bad and that could have been done easily. HANSON: Were you in law school then? MORGAN: Not when she got in, but she came in 1956. I was out of law school in 1955. HANSON: How did you begin to work with people like Orzell Billingsley and Arthur Shores? I mean what was the connection there in the beginning? Because your career goes on interestingly defending a lot of very unpopular positions, Chuck. I mean, that' ; s what you' ; re noted for. MORGAN: Well, the defense of unpopular positions did not feed me, to start with. But, let' ; s just go back.... HANSON: Let' ; s go back. MORGAN: At the University of Alabama... I understood Alabama very well. I finished near the top of my class in law school if not at it. I knew the... I had come out of Alabama with a couple of degrees. I knew a lot of people. I had worked in campus politics and activities and in Young Democrats' ; work and in democratic state politics well before I got out of the University of Alabama. I left the University of Alabama at age 25. By the time I left Alabama, I understood the Hill-Sparkman bunch, the Young Democrats, and everything else that I was involved in. I was the national committeeman for the Young Democrats, I guess, before I ever got out of school. Now, I knew state politics and I knew state politicians and they knew me and they knew I was a little strange in some beliefs. Some of them did, but a great number of them agreed with me. Now the fact that I wind up saying something and am known for saying something or breaking loose that way was not by my pre-design. I didn' ; t wake up one day and say, ' ; Hi there. There' ; s a revival. I' ; m going to do something.' ; It is just that some people were confronted with having to make a decision. Most people wanted to avoid that decision. I was sane. I certainly would have preferred to avoid making the decision. I had already made my mind up as to how I felt about things and I said it. But, I sure didn' ; t want to be confronted with something that would strike me away from the entire community or town. HANSON: Then why did you? MORGAN: Because I wasn' ; t smart enough to turn it down. I couldn' ; t figure a way out where I could live with myself. I didn' ; t have the capacity to rationalize, apparently, that other people did, and I was confronted. Confrontation is what changes people. Their minds are already made up, generally. They know what they think. They know what it is and they know whether they can live with themselves or not. So, once confronted, then you make a choice. HANSON: Alright, what was the first confrontation that...? You said it didn' ; t pay the bills. What paid your bills in the beginning when you took ....? MORGAN: Well, I made a law practice. I' ; m not sitting down there looking for a civil rights case. That' ; s crazy. I suppose, as you get into things you think about them. For instance, I was already active in politics to a degree and already involved in the liberal or Loyalists Democratic...the Loyalist wing of the Democratic Party. There were Loyalists and Dixiecrats. We were Loyalists. And, in that context, people knew what people thought. I mean there were folks in the crowd that knew. And, when you go through it and you' ; re suddenly someplace and you' ; re thinking about this and you' ; ve watched everything go, then, at some point, you either have to--You make a decision and a choice. For instance, if you represent somebody, you' ; re appointed to defend someone in a criminal case, then you have to make a decision. You' ; ve accepted the appointment. They paid a hundred dollars ($100) back then for a capital case. That means if the fellow could face capital punishment you got a hundred dollars ($100) from the State of Alabama to defend that person. Now, one of the reasons some lawyers would do that, even those...like I did when I started out with a corporate firm here...one reason lawyers did that is because, if they were young, they wanted to learn something. Well they also did not want to be--at least I did not want to be--known as ' ; Death House Morgan.' ; That was a word that went beyond me. I didn' ; t want to be known as a fellow who took advantage of anybody that got killed. Now, once you' ; ve been presented with a case and you go ahead and you handle it, you start learning more and more about things as you go. It' ; s not just law or rationality. It' ; s facts and circumstances. And one case after another case after another case, you wind up doing things. And, you know the strangest thing happens. All of your friends and associates, all of whom were associated with you in one activity or another, seem to develop a propensity to find out that they can send you a case that they wouldn' ; t handle. HANSON: Why did you never turn it down? MORGAN: Well, I didn' ; t....I had a different perception of things. I didn' ; t want to take some cases sometimes and get out there in those damn things any more than anybody else did. That was crazy. But, my perception of being a lawyer was different from that of a lot of people. HANSON: Deal with that a little bit. Let' ; s go back to deal with some of the cases that gave you high visibility that led up to your leaving in ' ; 64. I' ; m thinking of you taking, for example, the Alabama Council on Human Relations, the Bob Hughes case, the Norman Jimerson case. There were no attorneys that would handle that in Birmingham. MORGAN: Well, there probably were some lawyers. I' ; m talking about White lawyers. HANSON: Yes, I' ; m talking about White lawyers, because there were segregated juries and we' ; re going to get to that in a minute. MORGAN: There were some White lawyers, probably, who would have taken those cases...a few. And those lawyers were unknown sometimes, often, to me, but certainly to the clients. Now, when someone comes to you and they have a problem, then, the first thing you want to do is shun it off to somebody else. I was never a member of the Council on Human Relations. I mean I was hardly ever...I mean I was a member of the Young Men' ; s Business Club primarily because at least it was an organization that had some controversy to it. I mean, in a world in which the Junior Chamber of Commerce was over here and the Young Men' ; s Business Club [YMBC] was over there, I got to the YMBC. And we had debates in that thing! It was really very strange in Birmingham that somebody would do that sort of thing, a group or an organization. We had folks that were, you know, good people who were confronting things. Well, as far as I was concerned, the last thing in the world I wanted to do as I got up in the morning was to go out and confront the race question. And the reason for that was that I had done very well and I was not what you would call ignorant of the world in which I lived. I mean, I traveled the state in politics. I had done a world of things. I knew everybody from...you know...I mean, I had people who were interested in me. Mark Ray Clement in Tuscaloosa and others. Jim Folsom. All those folks around, I mean Hill and Sparkman, I got along with all of these folks. Now the last thing in the world they wanted me to do--any of them that knew me well--would be to get involved in an integration case, because it was unheard of. You' ; ve got to be out of your mind to do that. Well, I wasn' ; t out of my mind, obviously. It' ; s worked out very well over the long haul. I couldn' ; t foresee any of it. But, you see, what happens is that when you are confronted in life, you make certain decisions and the decisions you make generally govern the rest of your life in certain instances. And when you make those decisions you begin to move, even if your moves cut you away from the community and one leads to another because you don' ; t live in a vacuum. If Joe Jones over here knows something happened, he may tell Bill Green who tells Sam Smith and Sam then knows somebody and pretty soon you wind up with another client and you say, ' ; Where did that client come from?' ; Well, it came because of the first one. And it could be that your capacity to rationalize wasn' ; t ... you weren' ; t that rational a person perhaps. Now, I didn' ; t have any question about what was right and I knew I was an American citizen and there was a Supreme Court of the United States and, as such, all those things entered into it. There was a certain sense of patriotism and if you took a case then you tried to win it. You could win it any number of ways, settle it, do this, get the case dismissed, do all those things I could and you just wound up repeatedly getting in those things and when you did wind up repeatedly getting in them, it wasn' ; t that you couldn' ; t foretell the future. You just didn' ; t know what else to do other than whatever your duty was. As I said, it wasn' ; t my duty to join the Council on Human Relations. I didn' ; t race over every day to see if I could attend a NAACP meeting. I mean, that wasn' ; t in my interest. I didn' ; t wake up one morning thinking that was a fine thing for me to do. I didn' ; t go join some debating society. The Young Men' ; s Business Club is as closest I came to that around here. I didn' ; t do that. All that happened was, things happened and invariably, when I get into a case then some son of a bitch would come along and would anger me a little bit along the way and that would just increase my resolve. Now, in fact looking back at it, I have a lot to be thankful for Birmingham. I got out of here alive. HANSON: True. MORGAN: I got out of here well. I came back here for years. I still do. I used to say I didn' ; t make any...lose any old friends. I just made new enemies. And I didn' ; t do anything particularly noteworthy, you see. HANSON: But Chuck... MORGAN: I was a lawyer. HANSON: I know. Stop right there though. We must talk a little bit about the climate for White folks at that time and what it was like if you dared speak out. For example, one of the cases when you came back into town, a classic that you recite in your book, is that you' ; re down here at the Parliament House having lunch and somebody saw you and went across the street. It was shortly after the city had desegregated the lunch counters and so forth. And they said they' ; d rather eat across the street with a group of niggers than sit in the same hotel room with Chuck Morgan. MORGAN: That' ; s right. HANSON: Obviously you weren' ; t the dearly beloved...It didn' ; t offend you? How did you put up with that? I mean, you knew people and they resented you. You were not the most dearly loved man in Birmingham. MORGAN: You know something. This may come as a big surprise to you, but the odds are pretty good that I' ; m still not. (Hanson laughs.) Now, the second thing is how do you do that? Well, you don' ; t do that voluntarily. You don' ; t wake up one morning and say I' ; d like to do that but you have to figure out whether you' ; re right or not and then you have to figure out whether it' ; s worth it or not and then you have to do whatever you got to do. HANSON: Stop right there. What made you...? Was it your conscience that said this is right? You said you were an American citizen. You were... MORGAN: My conscience told me this was right, yes. My conscience told me the NAACP and the American Civil Liberties Union were right also, and I didn' ; t pick up the first mail opportunity I had to join. I was confronted. HANSON: So, you' ; re saying it was always in your life, this confrontation, where you had to make an ethical decision? MORGAN: I' ; m saying that precisely what has happened with almost every social movement in the country and certainly with the movement for civil rights in this country is that the conduct of the oppressed was such that it confronted the oppressors. And, if you witness that, then, the old line from the labor days is, ' ; Which side are you on?' ; And, if it confronts you directly then you either do your duty or you don' ; t. I didn' ; t do anything... I didn' ; t do one thing that a lawyer shouldn' ; t do. I did only what a lawyer should do. HANSON: Then why weren' ; t there more lawyers? In this case, specifically, White lawyers that would take civil rights cases in Alabama? MORGAN: I don' ; t know. You' ; ll have to ask them. HANSON: Well, we' ; ve tried, and nobody will give us an answer to that. MORGAN: Well, in the first place a lot of them don' ; t go. I mean, I can think of... If I were Black, there would be a world of lawyers I wouldn' ; t enter into their office asking them to represent me. If I were a member of the Communist Party for instance, I wouldn' ; t just search out some of these lawyers around town here and ask them to represent me. Now, me, I was pretty well treated by these lawyers around here. I remind you, because don' ; t think for a minute that I wasn' ; t. There were two things I was doing. I was doing a lot of the dirty work. It was clean to me. It was clean to the world, but I was doing a lot of the things they didn' ; t have to do and I had a lot of friends. I was president of the Junior Bar Section of the Young Lawyers that year. I was in charge of sundry things in the Bar Association. I started out with a corporate firm here in town, had a world of friends and I was active in politics and I still do and I haven' ; t lost those friends. I still see them now. I see those lawyers now, many of them, the ones that are still living, and I don' ; t have a problem with them and they didn' ; t have a problem with me. I went to a bar dinner the other night here in Birmingham. I might as well have been returning to a family reunion with a lot of those folks, but the fact of the matter is that I chose a different course than they did. Many of them respected that course. A lot of them were on the other side, politically and otherwise, and I can' ; t expect them, if they' ; re on the other side, politically and otherwise, to stand around applauding me. HANSON: But, Chuck, you suffered a lot financially, in a lot of different ways and yet you kept plowing ahead. For example, segregation.... MORGAN: Every single thing that I suffered along the way financially, if you will look back over that as life went on, everything came out very well. HANSON: Sure. You can take it with perspective. But I can remember walking in your house in Mountain Brook with search lights going on the front door that stayed on 24 hours a day. MORGAN: Well now, they were just kind of big long lights. They were not searchlights in that sense, but they were there because I thought a place should be well lit--in Birmingham. HANSON: Now, be honest about that. You had had threats. Your family had had threats. Your child had had threats. Being a White man, taking some civil rights cases... MORGAN: I don' ; t believe the child had threats. HANSON: But you had threats. MORGAN: Well that was alright, sure, but I expected that. I had a lot of threats, sure. HANSON: And what about... Did you fear for your life ever? MORGAN: Of course. HANSON: You would go across the tracks and meet with Orzell Billingsley carrying a gun sometimes in your cases. MORGAN: I didn' ; t carry one much, but I had a permit to carry one and I did sometimes have a thing that would protect me in my briefcase, sure. HANSON: Do you think you could have used it? MORGAN: Do I think I could have used it? Well,...I mean, what a strange question. HANSON: I don' ; t think it' ; s strange at all. MORGAN: You don' ; t think anybody ever carried one of those things and didn' ; t think they could use it. HANSON: Do you still carry a gun? MORGAN: No. HANSON: Why? MORGAN: I don' ; t want to. HANSON: Why did you carry it then? MORGAN: Well, I didn' ; t want to then. HANSON: But you felt you had to? MORGAN: From time to time. Not every day, not much.... I' ; ve always thought they were more trouble than they were worth, usually, but there were events and things that came along that from time to time told me that I should be able to defend myself against people who were not interested in fist fighting. HANSON: What was the response of your mother and father, Camille, your wife, to your outspoken stand on a variety of different things? And we are going to get into some of these cases in just a minute which are famous now. But what was their response? Did they ever say, ' ; Chuck, pull back. Don' ; t be so outspoken.' ; ? MORGAN: Not my wife, no, never. HANSON: Your mother and father? Your brother? MORGAN: No, not my brother. I think my mother and father were worried about me not making it. So, consequently, they would express that concern from time to time. But as far as my wife was concerned, no, not from the moment that we... not from the moment that the subject first came up have we disagreed on it. HANSON: Despite the fact that your life was threatened, despite the fact that you had to live under lights because you liked, to use your term, ' ; a well lit lawn' ; ... MORGAN: No don' ; t, don' ; t. Listen, it was nothing compared with people like Shores and folks like that who had an entire neighborhood with no policemen around. You know, I' ; m telling you. I' ; m living in Mountain Brook. If I were sitting over some place and worrying about doing something to somebody, about the last place I would like to go if I were from...I' ; m not going to mention the area in Birmingham, something like White steel workers or somebody else, I' ; m not going to trot out to Mountain Brook to do something. Why, good Lord, man. That' ; s about as foreign as... It' ; s foreign in a different way, the same way the Black community is, but in a different way. HANSON: Let' ; s talk about some of the most famous cases. Certainly, desegregating juries, Chuck. I mean, you had some failures in that but you saw in the beginning that that had to happen quickly. MORGAN: Well, because of my experience in Birmingham practicing law, I understood--because of my experience generally in Alabama with politics--I knew that Black folks had to have some power and the power that Blacks could get, of course, is the vote. Without the right to vote, everything else would fail. Now, the instruments of power in our democracy are generally... The first power is the power of the vote--a power just as important is the power of being on a jury. If you had all White juries, as we generally throughout the State of Alabama, the jury can do anything to you. The jury is what takes your life away. The jury can take away your property. The jury can take away everything. Therefore, that' ; s one of the great instruments of power in a democracy. We talk about the police and the lawyers and this and that, but the jury, that' ; s the essence of power. The vote is the essence of power in a democracy and when I started practicing here, women couldn' ; t serve on juries. Blacks didn' ; t serve on juries except in some areas in small numbers. They' ; d show up one, two or three in the panel. With women, I filed a case called White v. Crook in Lowndes County, Alabama. I like that name. White was Gardenia White and she was Black. Crook was Bruce Crook and he was the jury commissioner and he was White. But, also, I added into that complaint the question of the exclusion of women from juries and on recollection that was the first application of the equal protection clause for the rights of women with respect to a matter of that nature. So, in that one case, I struck down-- We managed to desegregate the juries of Lowndes County and, secondly, managed to take away the ban on women, White and Black from serving on juries in the State of Alabama. Those cases, those jury cases were filed county by county by county. I would have somebody, and this is...much of this is after I left here and went .... I left Birmingham in late 1963 and by 1964 I was back in Atlanta. In ' ; 64 I then organized the ACLU Southern Regional Office, American Civil Liberties Union Southern Regional Office, and consequently, filed lawsuits across the South. So, when I left here, I didn' ; t leave for long and I didn' ; t leave for real, some might say. Because, then, it was in Alabama counties, numbers of them, not just one, two, or three, that a lawsuit would be filed against the jury commissioners to require the desegregation of juries. And they would be filed in a federal court. And, then, we would rule to desegregate the juries since statistically they would have to come up and make sure that they met, generally, the population in the area. Well that' ; s the transfer of power that nobody much sees or notices, looking back at it, but that' ; s one of the strongest instruments of power that exists. Very few things in this society can take away your life, legally, or take away your property, legally. HANSON: Could the state have changed everything if they could have passed a law in the legislature to desegregate juries? The answer is, ' ; Of course.' ; Some states did, didn' ; t they? MORGAN: No. HANSON: None. In the South. MORGAN: In the South? Not when I was doing this, no. HANSON: Okay, so you went county by county in Alabama particularly, but you also did it in Mississippi? MORGAN: In Alabama. I had a great desire to see that Alabama changed. I mean, I had the whole South and we had other organizations working with...and worked with them whether it was in Mississippi or Georgia. We had lawyers and organizations and ultimately you raised money in the North and the money flowed South and it became a major industry for folks. And you had lawyers all across the way. We had lawyers in particular states and so we filed lawsuits with them, Black lawyers, White lawyers, whatever. But, all those things were devoted and dedicated to redistributing power. It was not...I mean, I wasn' ; t that...The traditional way to do it is you defend a Black man charged with a crime and you raise the question of systematic exclusion of Negroes from the Grand Appellate juries and, after you raise the question, you see, you get in the record and you go up and appeal the case and you get the conviction reversed and he doesn' ; t go to death because you' ; ve proved racial discrimination in the selection of the jury. But you see, what I did was different. We fashioned an answer out of a little arcane reference to a couple of cases and the answer was, file suit in federal court against the state court at jury officials and put them under an injunction, because when you used to raise the question for Black defendants, it would go away. The whole thing would go away. Then you' ; d turn around and retry him and whatever else it is then after the court ruled you' ; d have the juries about the same way. This way, we put them under a court order and we would ____________. And I don' ; t care if the county was Lowndes, Harber, Bullock, wherever across the South, we did that. And, then the second place was in the voting rights cases. HANSON: Before we get to that, also--which is sort of right with it, because you always talk about segregated justice, from cradle to grave, lack of justice for the Black man in particular-- [cross-talking] MORGAN: There' ; s no way...You see, I can be critical, and I sometimes am, of some companions that I had. But imagine what you' ; d do if you walk in a courthouse and you raise the racial questions if you are a White lawyer in those years. You earn your living there. You' ; ve got a wife and kids at home. You' ; ve got a mortgage on your house, just like everybody else. You look at it and you know you have an obligation to raise the question of systematic exclusion of negroes from juries, but you know if you do so that you' ; ll have to give up your livelihood, the town you' ; ve lived in, your mother' ; s and father' ; s and everybody else' ; s around, your wife and children. Now, under that circumstance, that' ; s quite a burden to be on a lawyer or any other citizen, you know, who lives some place. Well that' ; s what was confronted. There were a lot of lawyers that didn' ; t like that system, but if they did something about it, the natural laws of economics did them in. Now, I understood that. I' ; d been through all that. So, when I went with the ACLU, I used the ACLU and they used me. But, I used it and grant funds and all across the South, hired lawyers to file lawsuits to desegregate juries that even some of them later would be trying cases in. HANSON: Also, you desegregated prisons, I mean the Caleb Washington case. Along with Orzell Billingsley, you had been fighting this for years. MORGAN: The whole justice system. Jury cases, the prison system, you name it. All of it is a part of the instrument of power. The basic instrument of power in any society and culture is to do one of two things: kill someone or put them in jail. That' ; s the way the world works. Now, I understood that. And I understand it today. Lots of people today don' ; t seem to understand that. It' ; s what I would refer to as kind of murky, miasmic liberalism. I mean, the world would be nice, but that' ; s called power and I knew something about politics and I knew that was the way that you changed things was to alter power, not so that Whites wouldn' ; t be serving but so that you would desegregate and integrate. And you know why you want to integrate? You want to integrate because that means that Black folks and White folks both talk differently. They say things differently when White folks are around. Black folks do, and White folks say things differently when Black folks are around. That' ; s just the nature of human beings. Everybody forgets about the nature of human beings. HANSON: So you decided to use the federal government in a new way to desegregate juries to get people to desegregate prisons. But the classic case, of course--and you had a lot of help here--was the one man, one vote. You saw reapportionment as absolutely fundamental to changing the state. In other words, they were all part of a large scheme, were they not, Chuck? MORGAN: I could see something that other people didn' ; t see. They still don' ; t see it and they still don' ; t understand it and they may never. It doesn' ; t matter a whit. Somebody will. Somebody will see it. If you have a state legislature, as Alabama did, that was created in 1901 and designed to make certain that certain agricultural interest ruled the area and designed in such a way that you have a state senator from, say, Lowndes County and a state member of the House or two and that this state senator and that state senator from Wilcox and the state senator from X county and Y county, that all these people had great power in a 35 person senate. And Jefferson County was 642,000 people, ultimately, by about 1940 as I recall. And Jefferson County had one vote in the state legislature and state senate, too. Seven members of the house. Other places had two or three members of the house. Every county had one. Sixty-seven counties had one house member. Therefore, the apportionment of the state meant that the vote of a person in Jefferson County, White or Black, was minuscule compared with the votes of the people in those other counties. Now, how do you change the state? Well, in the first place, if the Black Belt of the state--named, incidentally, if anybody ever watches this, not because of the population, it is said, but because of the color of the soil--the Black Belt of the state ran the operation and the Black Belt of the state is interested in what? Cheap labor. What' ; s the cheapest labor? Well, slave labor was pretty expensive. It got cheaper after Reconstruction. So, you' ; ve got all the crops and all the Black folks living on the farm and how do you control folks who live on the farm? They see you' ; ve got more than they' ; ve got. Well, you know, the strangest thing is you sometimes do it with guns, whips, knives, chains, the sheriff and the county jail. Now, how do you do something about that? Well, the first thing you do is you desegregate juries. Simultaneously, you' ; d better desegregate the voter rolls, because if you have a democracy, the real power lies in the voter rolls. And so, simultaneously, we started filing voting discrimination cases and working with those who did across the Black Belt, also. And in the ACLU years it was just wonderful. I mean, it was like, there I was in Atlanta, Georgia and I had people all over the United States who were contributing money and foundations and others for me to go out and hire lawyers and to get people to do things and try cases myself and take them to Supreme Court to alter the law that concerns you deeply. But, talk a little bit about where you were at that time. You were with the ACLU in Atlanta. MORGAN: I was in the ACLU in Atlanta in 1964. I left here in ' ; 63 and was... In ' ; 64 the Voting Rights Act was proposed, but ' ; 64 was the year for the Civil Rights Act. HANSON: That' ; s right. ' ; 64. MORGAN: [unclear] and the rest of that. I lived in Washington and then moved to Atlanta, I guess later in that year-- Late in ' ; 64 I moved to Atlanta. Now, in 1965, you had the Selma to Montgomery March and those things for the Voting Rights Act. And, you see, we also had a Department of Justice back then and I liked those people. A lot of people don' ; t like the Department of Justice, but I always thought they were pretty good folks. Burke Marshall headed up the Department of Justice and John Doar was in the Department of Justice as number two in the Civil Rights Division and Bob Kennedy was the Attorney General of the United States. Whatever people may say about any Kennedy, any place, Robert Kennedy was hard minded, tough and he was devoted and dedicated to making the United States live by its promise and carrying that promise forward to the South. So, I liked him, I mean, personally and otherwise and I liked these other folks personally and otherwise and they took care of their things and I' ; d try to take care of things that they couldn' ; t take care of and things that.... They couldn' ; t handle all of these lawsuits. They could break down this statute and that sort of statute. They had all sorts of things going for them. Then, Jack Kennedy was assassinated, of course, soon after...in the fall of 1963. Well, then, in came Lyndon Johnson and, you see, Lyndon Johnson, as southern as he is, was a man who understood power. You know, you don' ; t have to be a walking around genius to understand power, and Lyndon Johnson was probably both a walking around genius and he understood power. He knew that one way to alter that power in the South was to alter the vote. Now, he knew that that was the right thing to do, too, so he embarked upon the vote. So if you can take care of the votes and if you can take care of the jury structure and the justice system and, then, lastly, if you can take care of the ..... HANSON: Reapportionment. MORGAN: Well, I mean, you' ; ve got that. That' ; s the vote. I consider the reapportionment cases, those cases, all of them having to do with the vote down the line. And, when you get through, you change those two things. Then, education you see has to fall in the center of that. You can' ; t educate people or get money for education or do anything else unless you' ; ve got a decent legislature, a decent voter set of rolls and a decent set of people who are not going to be able to kill people with impunity. And, they' ; ve got juries to protect that. So, by working on the instruments of power...I came to these conclusions in Birmingham. I mean, nobody sat around and philosophized with me about this. I mean, I could see this from the University of Alabama right straight on through. I understood power and I had a lot of folks who were more miasmic than I was in civil rights things. They did other things. They were interested in-- I understood what had to be done to give people a playground in which they could all operate. A place where they could debate back and forth, where people could hear different arguments. And, I... That' ; s what I did. I did that for eight years out of Atlanta. HANSON: Chuck, let' ; s go back to 1963. The thing-- If you said to X number of people in Birmingham, ' ; Chuck Morgan,' ; they would say, ' ; I remember when he said,' ; and they' ; ll quote ' ; Birmingham is dead,' ; which is not exactly how you said it in that famous speech before the YMBC. That happened in ' ; 63 after four little girls were killed at the Sixteenth Street Church. Do you want to address the climate that led up to that bombing that certainly was a turning point in your life? MORGAN: No, and I don' ; t think it was an event in my life. I mean, I know that that was an important event in my life. It was a terrible thing to have happen and it sickened me. But...I can' ; t recount those events. HANSON: Why did you determine to give that speech in the first place? Because you were so outraged? MORGAN: Well, it was nothing else. Sure. I mean, I didn' ; t sit down and rationally say, ' ; Hi, there. I think I' ; ll go give this speech. Hey let' ; s go to Gettysburg.' ; No, that' ; s not any event. I mean, I just... I was furious. That' ; s why. HANSON: You said something there that having just recently gone.... MORGAN: It was sick. The whole thing was sickening. HANSON: But you said, ' ; We are all to blame.' ; MORGAN: Well, of course. We were. HANSON: Address that a little bit. MORGAN: Well, we are a democracy. When the people' ; s will is carried out by bombing kids at a church that' ; s pretty close to seeing who did it. You know, I' ; m not a great one to wake up one morning and say corporate guilt is the way of the earth. I' ; m not talking about that. But, I lived in Birmingham, Alabama. I knew who the hell did it. I didn' ; t have to.... I wasn' ; t born yesterday, but I didn' ; t have the capacity to rationalize [that] most people did, because I could see things they didn' ; t see or at least I was willing to look. But there was nothing great about that. I didn' ; t do anything. There was all these people talking about courage and this and that and all that sort of routine. I only did, you see, what I couldn' ; t keep from doing. People don' ; t understand that. Other people could keep from doing it who agreed with me. I just didn' ; t have the way... I couldn' ; t do that. HANSON: Let' ; s talk a little bit about practicing law in Birmingham, Alabama for two Black lawyers that you worked very closely with, most notably Orzell Billingsley and Arthur Shores. What was it like? This was before there was any desegregation, before your famous cases on juries, before your famous cases with the prisons. What was it like the first time you came in contact with somebody like Arthur Shores or Orzell Billingsley? How did they practice law? How could they practice law in this highly segregated society? MORGAN: Well, it was very hard because they didn' ; t have any power. HANSON: That' ; s your theme, isn' ; t it? That' ; s the theme of everything. MORGAN: It' ; s not the theme. It' ; s the theme of democracy and the world and life. I mean it' ; s nothing I thought of, because human beings who are interested in politics understand a little bit about power to start with, and human beings that are interested in law ought to understand something about power and it just... The real question is, did Orzell Billingsley and Arthur Shores have power? They had about nine thousand Black votes, as I recall--nine to ten or twelve thousand Black votes in a period of time in Birmingham and Jefferson County, and that was a semblance of power, you know, a little bit, but not much. Orzell was... I drank with Orzell a good bit. We' ; d go off to some place, his house or somewhere--not in Mountain Brook. We didn' ; t go out there. And Arthur was not a person who was that way. He' ; d never go with us. And I did not work with them in any number of cases. I mean, Orzell was a plaintiff of mine in one case, Billingsley v. Clayton, a jury case. Or maybe that was his father. HANSON: That was his father. MORGAN: Yes, his daddy. [pauses and laughs] Orzell, that' ; s a funny story. [speaking low] I probably ought to pick up the phone and tell him before I tell it, but these were people that I saw. It was a segregated society. I didn' ; t see them any place except at Orzell' ; s house. I was closer to Orzell than Arthur. Arthur was pretty straight laced and he was a fellow-- Orzell drank a good bit and he was... Arthur was a representative of, you know, the business interest... HANSON: The power structure. MORGAN: The NAACP and the rest of it. But, Orzell and the other young lawyers, you know. There were some younger lawyers around who were Black lawyers and I used to...I thought they were brilliant in many ways. I' ; m not commenting scholastically. I don' ; t know what they did in law school, but they could find a remedy and think of something to do. The problem was that they were crippled. HANSON: Because-- MORGAN: Because they lived in a segregated society in which all the power was in the hands of the White folks. HANSON: And being crippled they also didn' ; t have access to some of the libraries, did they, Chuck? MORGAN: Well, they didn' ; t have access to the rest of that. You see there are people who can practice law without much law libraries, but in Birmingham, I discovered one day at the Birmingham law library, I was-- I told somebody just the other day. I was at the Birmingham Law Library looking for something and I noticed all these people who worked there who weren' ; t helping anybody do anything--about four of them, I counted. And I counted particularly because there I am in the old courthouse, Jefferson County Courthouse and I' ; m wandering along and I' ; m searching for something and I looked over at a little room over there and there used to be a room in there, there' ; s a little ... the sixth floor of the courthouse had an elevator that would take you upstairs to the law library. And, in the law library there was an old man there, with gray hair, a short little fellow, a nice fellow as far as I was concerned, named Charlie White. The Birmingham Bar Association ran that library. Well, Black folks couldn' ; t even be members of the Birmingham Bar Association. They had their own private bar association. And, it was...one of the great revelations of my life was to discover that Orzell or whoever it was, would go over to the law library and they couldn' ; t go into the law library and get a book. They' ; d get up there and they would put them in a little room, like the little room I saw. And, then the law librarian, Charlie White, would bring them books. They would tell him what they wanted, and he' ; d come over and bring the books back to them. Now, of course, I started to say to somebody the other day, desegregation has resulted, now, in a law library where the librarians don' ; t even bring White lawyers' ; books. (laughs) But, there was Charlie White working along the way carrying the books over to the Black lawyers. There were a thousand things that were strange and absurd looking back, but you see, they were all designed to a purpose and the purpose was to make sure that White people, just because of their race, remained in power. Nothing else. And, if you... There were a thousand rationalizations...but that' ; s what was involved. To a great degree that' ; s involved in a lot of politics today, and we' ; re talking about thirty years later. And, I imagine, they' ; ll be involved thirty more years from now. Ultimately, if things continue to work along the way, and we have democracy along the way, and the continuance of the Constitution--If the Supreme Court comes in, it' ; ll enforce it and that sort of thing and we' ; ll find that those problems will go away. But that comes from something called integration. You know it' ; s not... There' ; s been a lot of integration of the South. You can see it by the sundry shades of Black folks. Now, all these artificial distinctions of race, I mean religion, you don' ; t even, you know-- You can' ; t even tell what somebody' ; s religion is when you see them, but people all over the world...until you know what it is, people all over the world kill each other over religion. Well, they can see race. They kill each other over race. It just.... Most things in life are very simple. You don' ; t have to be an honor graduate of the Alabama Law School--or Harvard or Yale. The problem with the law and the problem with education is, it gives people a way to think " ; rationally" ; or, to put it another way, to rationalize. And when they rationalize, they rationalize away most of the things they might have done, which could have changed something along the way, along life' ; s road. And, I have seen many people do that and I have not, you know, I have not written them off. I mean, I have a world of friends here who disagreed with me and over the years, I mean they just... I' ; d see some in Atlanta and some in some other places, those eight years in Atlanta, four years in Washington. And all these folks, I mean-- As I say, I didn' ; t lose a lot of old friends. I knew a world of people. HANSON: But Chuck you might have-- MORGAN: I made a lot of new enemies. HANSON: Yeah, right, but you might very well have seen things differently--and I want to get to the core of why you did--because aside from just what you did in Alabama and when you were with the ACLU in juries and one man, one vote, and prisons and so forth, you also defended unpopular causes, not the least of whom was Muhammed Ali who was Cassius Clay who didn' ; t want to go and work in the Vietnam War. The Levy case, a dermatologist who also did not want to serve in the Vietnam War. Did the ACLU give you that kind of cover, or why did you decide to take those cases? Those were individuals. That was not a question of power. That was individual. MORGAN: OK. The day that the ACLU, in a time like the Vietnam War, gives somebody, quote, cover, that is the day that the organization should dissolve. Now, the...When I left here and went to Washington, I worked for the American Association of University Professors for a while after I finished A Time to Speak. And then, after that, the American Civil Liberties Union decided that, low and behold, the poor benighted southerners needed some help and needed some emancipation and so, consequently, they wanted to organize a Southern Regional Office of the ACLU. It was also in liberal jargon or whatever you want to put it, it was pretty good business, as the ACLU Southern office raised enough money to handle it and probably raised some money extra to boot. But there were foundation heads all across the country who were interested in the South, many of them having been southerners. I mean the guys who ran them. And, so, consequently, when I was in the southern office of the ACLU, grants came and with those grants I could do something that we hadn' ; t done before. I put maybe fifteen or ten or twenty lawyers on a retainer. They were Black, most of them. Some were White. Every month. Why? I wanted them to be able to practice where they were and live, eat. I understood that. See, if you could eat and sleep, have a place to live, food, shelter and clothing, then you' ; re likely to be around and handle cases. Now, the Vietnam War came along and as the Vietnam War came, it got in the way. It was just a terrible inconvenience for the Civil Rights Movement (both laugh). I' ; m in Atlanta, Georgia and there' ; s Julian Bond, who' ; s, you know, a friend and a client. There he is in the Georgia legislature and they want to throw him out. I wind up in a case called Bond v. Floyd. I' ; m already in Reynolds v. Sims or Sims v. Frank is the way they filed it, and I' ; ve done that. I guess I argued that case in ' ; 64. I' ; m in Atlanta...when I' ; m in Atlanta and I' ; m back in Atlanta in ' ; 64, I argue Reynolds v. Sims in the Supreme Court of the United States in ' ; 64. In ' ; 65-- HANSON: (coughs loudly) Excuse me, Chuck. MORGAN: That' ; s alright. In ' ; 65, when you go along, then the Voting Rights Act comes in and all these things are there, so there' ; s another thing coming along and it' ; s the Vietnam War. I say the Vietnam War got in the way. It was a terrible inconvenience for the social revolution that was underway. It' ; s very difficult to have a social revolution in a time of war. War does things to people and governments. I don' ; t know where you read this, but it' ; s readable many places that war does things to people that other things don' ; t do to them, and to nations. When you' ; ve got a, quote, enemy, out there then the war effort takes precedence. Well, what we did with the Civil Rights Movement, you see, is that it was existing in the time of the Vietnam War. And people like Martin King and others move against the war. In the first place, Martin King was a Christian. I mean, people keep forgetting that. I mean, they think of Martin Luther King as a " ; civil rights leader" ; or as a great speaker or as an excellent writer or as a PhD from Boston, but Martin King was a Christian and most Christians understand there is something wrong with war. Most of them don' ; t mind it much, but they know there is something wrong with war. Well, Martin King knew there was something wrong with war. The old spirituals knew there was something wrong with war. Lots of people sang, ' ; Ain' ; t goin' ; to go to war no more.' ; And, along with that come the Vietnam War and at that juncture people in the United States look at them and they say what in God' ; s green earth are we doing in Vietnam? As far as I' ; m concerned, I don' ; t particularly want to get involved in the war. I' ; m interested in other things but the war keeps getting in the way. I mean, the war is in the way of the social revolution going on in the United States. War generally kills social revolutions. Well, something happened with the Vietnam War. It was a little bit different. The social revolution may have been killed by the war. It may not have. I doubt that it has. But, secondly, it also killed the war. The Vietnam War was there and I... HANSON: But you took individual cases, Chuck. I mean, King certainly got to be very unpopular with a lot of the good folk, the liberal folk, that were beginning to accept him and what he had done in the Civil Rights Movement. But when he came out--I can remember him doing it just before Memphis and when he was killed--when he came out and, ' ; a,' ; talked about the garbage workers and organizing and, ' ; b,' ; when he talked against the war, everybody said, ' ; Well, he' ; s too radical.' ; MORGAN: Now, just look at that. Here' ; s a man who goes out and says garbage workers should be organized and should be paid more. Now, there are very few citizens of this world who don' ; t know that garbage workers should have been organized and should have been paid more. Today they are. They are organized in many cases and they are paid more. They work for private contractors today, generally, throughout the country, but back then, when King did that, there was just a lot of folks who hate anybody who is on the side of working class people making more money. I mean, you know, I-- Just wake up every morning and you can find people who are opposed to that. They are in high office. They' ; re in office today. They were in office twenty years ago. They were in office a hundred years ago. They will be in office another hundred years from now, maybe, unless the world is changing so rapidly through certain kinds of things that there is no need to go into. Newt and I understand them. I don' ; t think Newt understands it very well (both laugh). So what you have is, King moving over into the anti-war movement also but his understanding being different from that of others. People were critical of him many liberals who were for civil rights were critical of that for two reasons: First of all, King was then opposed to a democratic president who was liberal on the general issues of civil rights. So, a number of liberals allied themselves with that president. I liked that president myself. I didn' ; t write him off. I differed with him on the war, but I didn' ; t write him off on that score. And, some people looked at Martin King--people were constantly looking at Martin King and people like him, and they wanted to find a reason to be against him anyway. I mean, [people said], ' ; Who is this fellow out here?' ; ' ; Is he so sanc... You know, what kind of a guy is he, really? Is he really a fellow who' ; s a Christian? Is he really a good man? He' ; s got to keep a place someplace. We' ; ve got to get down there and unzip those shoes and look at them.' ; Now, when-- The war kept getting in the way, so-- If I can get a call from Chauncey Eskridge, who was also a lawyer for Martin King and others and--I think this is the way it happened for SCLC--and he asked me if I would go out and help defend Mohammed Ali in his draft case in Houston, the answer is, ' ; Of course I will.' ; I mean, after all I' ; m being paid a salary by the American Civil Liberties Union. Hell, they ain' ; t--for anything unfair in the draft and I go out there to Houston and I meet him the first day, you know and we were standing down in front of the federal courthouse one time out there, coming out, and we looked around. There was a television reporter with hair shaped just about like yours and she was with NBC as I recall and there was a big crowd of people as we walked out the federal courthouse. And we stood there for a minute and I' ; m standing there and the cameras are on him and of course, I' ; m with him, so I' ; m on camera occasionally along the way. These questions are asked and one of the questions she asked of Mohammed Ali, she said, ' ; Is it true that you don' ; t work with any White people?' ; or something like that or ' ; --you don' ; t like White people,' ; or something like that and he gave some answer to them like, ' ; Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.' ; You know, ' ; That' ; s right,' ; and whatever. And when the camera came back around whatever it was and her turn came again, she says, ' ; Well, you said that you don' ; t like any white people, but he' ; s your lawyer--' ; No. ' ; He' ; s your lawyer and you don' ; t have any friends, you say, that are white.' ; And his answer, quick as lightening, was just like this: He says, ' ; He' ; s my lawyer, not my friend.' ; And, you see, there' ; s a lot of people who don' ; t understand that kind of distinction. Now, in fact we did got along pretty well later. Later, he turned to me and said (laughs), ' ; I' ; ll stop at nothing to drive us apart,' ; or something like that. But the fact of the matter is that the war got in the way. So, when Howard Levy gets in difficulty and asks for help or somebody asks for help, sure I went out and defended him. HANSON: Okay, but then the other famous cases .... Did the Watergate get in the way of the Civil Rights Movement? I mean your goal has always been one thing...to bring about social justice in this country. I think I can say that fairly, can' ; t I, Chuck? MORGAN: Well, I think you can say that. Also, I' ; ve done other things along the way. I' ; ve gotten to be rich and well borne and able myself. I' ; ve made a good bit of money. HANSON: But let' ; s go, before we get to that-- We' ; ll get to that in a minute, but let' ; s just talk about those things that have large social import. The Watergate trial was another one. You were called in as an ACLU lawyer, is that correct, to defend those who went into the Watergate [Hotel]? MORGAN: Not to defend the ones who went into the Watergate, no, no. HANSON: The victims of the Watergate. MORGAN: The victims were the Democrats. The Association of State Democratic Chairmen had a working wiretap on their telephone-- HANSON: Right. MORGAN: --and I was now fresh in Washington. I had left Atlanta and I was the director of the ACLU Washington' ; s National Office--not the local office, but the national office--and some folks came to me and asked me to defend a fellow, represent a fellow, named Spensor Oliver. His phone was the one tapped by a working wiretap by Baldwin or others, a bug, in the Watergate [Hotel]. He was the Chairman of the... Oh, I' ; ve forgotten exactly the name of it, but it was the Democratic Party organization and they had him tapped. And the question then became, ' ; What can we do about that?' ; So, I filed a motion to suppress the contents--a pretty good memory here, because (unclear)--a motion to suppress the contents of illegally intercepted oral and wire communications. Now, I filed that motion in court to exclude the contents of any wire intercepted conversations. Now, my interest was in defending the client, and in all these cases unless I' ; m filing an affirmative lawsuit for the client or a lawsuit to break down segregation or something that I' ; ve dreamed up and going at it affirmatively-- Otherwise, your duty as a lawyer is to defend your client and it doesn' ; t matter who your client is, he could be right-wing, left-wing, Black, White, whatever. And, in this particular case, I' ; m defending a client by moving to suppress the contents of those conversations. The prosecutor said he was going to introduce the conversations to show the reason for the Watergate wiretap. Well, I knew that the Watergate break in wasn' ; t because of my clients or what they were saying on the telephone or any of that sort of stuff, or what they could say on the telephone. But, I filed the motion to do that and went through that case and I always knew that the people on the other side of that case were just like the people on the other sides of some cases in the South and that they were on the wrong side of the great questions that ordinarily faced the citizens of the United States. HANSON: Do you feel that as a large social issue also? MORGAN: Well, the large social issue is, who is going to run the country? In that instance, Richard Nixon was. And he did for a while and then his party came along and then Jimmy Carter came in for four years and then the Republicans returned with Ronald Reagan and they' ; re in power right now. And their interests have not generally been the kinds of political interests that I' ; ve had. I mean, on tax rates, I guess I profit, but as far as the rest of its concerned, no I' ; m on the other side of most of the things those people are for. HANSON: Chuck, here it is February 1995. The Republicans have taken over Congress, for whomever listens to this down in history, whatever. Be a little far seeing. Where is the social revolution coming now? Where is it coming from? We' ; re talking, I say we the Congress, in particularly the Republican wing. It' ; s talking about dismantling everything, dismantling welfare, quitting grants to the states. How far this will go in history I don' ; t know, but for this moment in time, address those things. That certainly isn' ; t part of a larger social revolution that you knew. It' ; s an entirely different kind of thing. MORGAN: Without opposition, the Republican Party is moving to dismantle things that are for the good of the people, in my judgment. The Democratic Party, you see, doesn' ; t manage to find itself capable of defending its own programs. It doesn' ; t have either the heart or the will for that. Now, there' ; s nothing really that I can do about that. I' ; m not going to run for president. But, you see, under that circumstance, when everyone is afraid to confront the people-- You see there are two things. Skepticism, and I' ; ve always been skeptical of a lot of things, but cynicism is the death of a democracy. And the cynics of this world undermine it worse that any underground or subversive group in the whole history of the country could possibly do. Democracy, and our democracy in particular, with the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the 13th, 14th and 15th.... This democracy is an idealistic system that must live by ideals. And, if it doesn' ; t appeal to people' ; s ideals then it won' ; t last. Now, one of the ways you undercut those ideals is cynicism. You always find some fault with something: ' ; The people didn' ; t do this,' ; or, ' ; They didn' ; t do that,' ; or, ' ; They made a mistake last year,' ; or, ' ; Look who they elected,' ; or, ' ; My God, they elected Nixon and gee it will never be the same again,' ; or, ' ; Gee, what happens here with so and so now that we' ; ve got...?' ; Now, if you have a political party that is devoted to ideals, it must express those ideals because one of those things that happens in a political campaign is the mass education of the populace, Blacks, Whites, everybody else. Now, if you speak truth to power and people, you gain power. But when you are cynical about it and you think the people don' ; t have good sense, and you write them off, then you have no program and they ordinarily vote for folks like they did in the last election. HANSON: Do you think the social revolution, looking back--here again, I' ; m talking about the Black/White revolution, which has been so important in the south--has it been a success? Do you see it...the obvious things there have been are there have more access by Blacks to the system as it were, but are we becoming more alienated one from another? MORGAN: Oh, good God, who cares? HANSON: You don' ; t care. MORGAN: About alienation [of] one from the other? Look, I would prefer to live in a society where people weren' ; t mean to each other, where the world came along and everybody loved each other, where Black folks and White folks got up every morning and went out there and Hattie McDaniel served the food and everybody stood there and sang to the heavens and everybody said here we are. That' ; d just be wonderful. But I don' ; t know of that time has ever occurred in history of the human race on a regular basis. It happens every now and then. Now, if you are in a society like our culture and society, and the things are out there, are we better off now than we were then? That' ; s the implicit... HANSON: That' ; s exactly what it is. MORGAN: The answer is: every given day, every moment of every day. Sure, we' ; re much better off. Number two. Could it all be taken away? Not probably, not all of it, but a hell of a lot of it could. Number three. Is the Democratic Party far better than the Republican Party today? Well the Republican Party at least has certain principles and precepts. Those principle and precepts generally are meanness and unspoken hatred and fear. It' ; s the-- It' ; s kind of the midas touch. It' ; s the money, money, money approach and somehow, some rules of economics and law say everything is going to be alright if we just adopt these rules of economics. And, the Democratic Party goes around, they don' ; t have organized labor, they don' ; t have all those other kinds of backgrounds that they used to have and they are floundering around and all they ought to have is beliefs. That' ; s all they need. HANSON: Could I summarize all of this and say, if we understand how power works, we can do something about constantly improving our society? Is that too simplistic, Chuck? MORGAN: No, it' ; s not simplistic. What the simple thing is, is that in our society, with freedom and access to information, the way people can get known and do things in this country, that if you do right, you ordinarily win. And if you win enough, the whole society wins--Blacks, whites, everybody in it. If we ever do that in the country in a really great way, we' ; ll do it for the whole world. HANSON: Thanks, Chuck. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
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Charles Morgan Jr.
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Charles Morgan Jr. discusses his legal career, involvement in civil rights cases and his work with the ACLU. He also covers his iWork defending the Democratic Party in the Watergate case.
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19950224M
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Watergate Affair, 1972-1974
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1995-02-24
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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Charlotte Billups Jernigan
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Reverend Charles Billups
Black Panther Movement
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5.4 June 9, 1995 Charlotte Billups Jernigan 19950609J 1:08:33 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Jackson, Jesse, 1941- Reverend Charles Billups Black Panther Movement Charlotte Billups Jernigan Horace Huntley Video 1:|8(7)|41(3)|64(11)|86(6)|106(6)|125(14)|140(5)|161(14)|176(9)|191(9)|210(7)|226(11)|245(14)|268(11)|295(4)|313(10)|329(3)|346(5)|358(12)|380(4)|396(7)|421(4)|438(10)|458(12)|474(2)|490(3)|512(8)|535(2)|554(1)|567(9)|587(11)|613(2)|630(5)|649(1)|660(7)|674(12)|688(3)|703(19)|717(10)|732(11)|756(10)|772(2)|786(12)|800(3)|812(15)|828(7)|840(11)|861(10)|883(7)|897(7)|922(4)|934(4)|962(7)|978(2)|1000(4)|1017(5)|1032(2)|1048(2)|1060(3)|1073(7)|1086(14)|1098(3)|1111(15)|1125(1)|1140(3)|1155(13)|1169(3)|1184(9) 0 https://youtu.be/294Ai2ZzvTg YouTube video English 52 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Charlotte Billups Jernigan for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Mrs. Jernigan is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 59 Family Background Let me just start by asking some general questions about your background, about your family. Jernigan discusses how many siblings she has and where her parents are from. Indiana, Gary ; Irondale (Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) 160 Educational Journey Tell me about your education. Tell me about where did you start elementary school. Jernigan went to grade school in Birmingham then moved to Chicago and attended a prestigious music school. American Conservatory of Music (Chicago, Ill.) ; Booker T. Washington Business College ; Lincoln University (Jefferson City, Mo.) Birmingham (Ala.) 224 Community Background What community were you reared in? Jernigan describes the racial and economic make-up of her community. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Blue collar workers Birmingham (Ala.) 297 Father's Involvement in the Movement What was your father's name? Jernigan recalls how her father was very active and a prominent leader in the movement. Civil rights movement ; Reverend Charles Billups Birmingham (Ala.) 434 Being Forced to Grow Up Fast And you being the oldest, then you had to sort of oversee the rest of the children? Jernigan recalls how she had to mature quicker than other kids because of her father's involvement in the movement. A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Reverend Charles Billups Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 568 Typical Day in Her Life as a Child Can you give me a description of the typical day in your life as a child during the period -- the height of the Movement with your father being so active? Jernigan recalls how she would go to school during the day, attend mass meetings at night, and go to the Gaston motel in the early hours of the morning. Abernathy, Ralph, 1926-1990 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) 661 Attending Mass Meetings Now, when you attended the mass meetings, I've gotten different kinds of descriptions of what they were like. As a teenager, how would you describe a typical mass meeting? Jernigan describes what a typical mass meeting was like and how she and her sisters would have to stay late while her father planned with the other leaders. New Pilgrim Baptist Church ; Reverend Charles Billups ; Reverend Nelson Smith Birmingham (Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 793 Her Mother's Career as a Nurse Tell me about your mother. What was she doing? Jernigan discusses how her mother was a nurse at UAB hospital and was discriminated against by her coworkers. The University of Alabama at Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.) ; Nursing 932 Conversations with Leaders of the Movement After the mass meetings, and then there would be a meeting after the meeting by the leaders of the Movement, your father being one of those. Jernigan recalls conversations she had with Dr. King and the other prominent leaders of the Movement. A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1031 Demonstrations and the Blue Jean Brigade Did you ever remember them leaving and going to a demonstration and returning after that demonstration? Jernigan attended demonstrations with Movement leaders and described the denim suits they wore. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1157 Relationship with the Police I normally ask a question about the relationship between the Birmingham Police Department and the community. Jernigan recalls incidents when police assaulted her father and her little sister bit a police officer. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Police brutality--United States Birmingham (Ala.) 1339 Experience with the KKK Were there any of the children in your neighborhood or in your school that was involved in the Movement? Jernigan recalls when her father was beaten by the Ku Klux Klan. Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) ; Ku Klux Klan 1494 Processing the Violence Toward her Father Well, what do you remember as result of that and in your returning to school did your teachers talk about it? Jernigan recalls how her school counselor helped her through tough times in her life. Hayes High School ; Reverend Smith Birmingham (Ala.) 1595 Experiencing Racism in Restaurants and Shops Now, you, and your siblings were never arrested? Jernigan recalls how the store workers would refuse to serve Black customers and would call them derogatory names. Racism--United States ; Reverend Charles Billups ; Reverend Smith Birmingham (Ala.) ; Selma (Ala.) 1720 Boycotting Popular Clothing Stores Tell me about the Easters and Christmas that you couldn't go to the stores. Jernigan boycotted several stores and her father was upset at her breaking the boycott. Pizitz (Department store) ; Selective buying Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1957 Being Diagnosed with Lupus You were affected by an illness that you really didn't understand at that time? Jernigan recalls how the Army diagnosed her with Lupus. United States Armed Forces Birmingham (Ala.) ; Lupus 2017 Serving in the Military When did you go into the military? Jernigan describes being Black in the Army and how she helped integrate the church. Army General Staff College (U.S.) ; Integration Civil rights movement 2298 The 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing 1963 in Birmingham was sort of the highlight of the Movement with the demonstrations and, then, finally with the bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church. Jernigan's mother was told not to help treat the 16th Street bombing victims when they arrived at the hospital. The University of Alabama at Birmingham 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Birmingham (Ala.) 2425 Meeting All of the Great Leaders of the Movement What is your most memorable remembrance of the Movement? Jernigan states that her best memory from the movement is meeting all of the leaders and seeing them plan the movement. A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 2721 Confronting Racism in Everyday Life Let me just ask you -- you were never arrested. Jernigan recalls how she used to get in fights with white people on the buses for not treating her and her friends fairly. Buses--Law and legislation ; Desegregation Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 3108 Moving to Chicago for the Movement Now, your family moved from Birmingham to Chicago during the time that Dr. King was marching. Jernigan describes how her father and the other leaders laid the groundwork for the revolution in Chicago. Black Panther Movement ; Cicero (Ill.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Chicago (Ill.) ; Jackson, Jesse, 1941- 3283 Her Father's Death But your father though was killed. Rev. Billups was found dead in Hyde Park in Chicago and the police did not thoroughly investigate. Hyde Park (Chicago, Ill.) ; Reverend Charles Billups Chicago (Ill.) ; Chicago (Ill.). Police Department 3356 Accomplishments of the Movement How would you evaluate the Movement? Jernigan describes the success of the movement and how it impacted future generations. Civil rights movement ; Desegregation ; Integration Birmingham (Ala.) 3636 Cherishing Her Experiences of the Movement You have obviously experienced an awful lot. Jernigan would not change anything about the Movement and how she holds dear the memories of it. Civil rights movement ; Revered Charles Billups ; Reverend Smith Birmingham (Ala.) 3722 Educating People About the Movement Well, finally, this has been a great afternoon. I've learned so much. Jernigan emphasizes the responsibility to educate the younger generations about the Movement. African American children--Education ; Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) 4072 Conclusion of Interview Well, Mrs. Charlotte Billups Jernigan, thank you very much. Interview is concluded. Oral History Charlotte Billups Jernigan discusses being the daughter of Movement leader Rev. Charles Billups. She attended mass meetings, served in the US Army and worked to integrate service church before moving to work in the Chicago Movement. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Charlotte Billups Jernigan for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 14, 1995. Thank you Mrs. Jernigan for coming out and sitting with us today to share your story of the Civil Rights Movement with us. JERNIGAN: I' ; m very glad to be here. HUNTLEY: Let me just start by asking some general questions about your background, about your family. Where were your mother and father from? JERNIGAN: My mother' ; s name is Almarie Stevens and she' ; s from Irondale, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Irondale? JERNIGAN: Yes. She was born and raised there. And that' ; s just a little suburb of Birmingham. My father was born in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: All right. Then, were you born in Birmingham? JERNIGAN: I was born in Birmingham also. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? JERNIGAN: I have three sisters. I mean I have two sisters, Alicia Francine and Helene Renee. HUNTLEY: Where are you in that group? JERNIGAN: I' ; m the oldest. HUNTLEY: You' ; re the oldest. So you are the one that had to take care of the rest of them? JERNIGAN: Yes, I did. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your parents' ; education. How much education did they have? JERNIGAN: My mom went to Irondale Junior High School and then on from there she did a little bit of studying and then she went to LPN school when she and my father married at the age of 35. She worked as an LPN and retired as a LPN. Daddy was a graduate of Booker T. Washington Business College. HUNTLEY: Did he go to Parker? JERNIGAN: No. Daddy went to school in Gary, Indiana. I' ; m not sure of the name, but he graduated from high school there. HUNTLEY: Is that right? JERNIGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Who was he living with there? JERNIGAN: His uncle and aunt. He only went there for the high school portion. I think he attended the regular public schools here in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your education. Tell me about where did you start elementary school. JERNIGAN: First, I started, which was here in Birmingham, North Patterson, which changed to be Henry C. Bryant Elementary. Then from Bryant Elementary I went to Hayes High School. From Hayes High School I went to Cleveland to Cuyahoga Community College and after Cuyahoga my family went to Chicago and I went to a community college there, which was YMCA. I also have attended Lincoln University in Jefferson City, Missouri and the Conservatory of Music in Chicago. HUNTLEY: So you are a musician? JERNIGAN: Yes. I love to sing. And, after military life I came back loving to do something, I went on to Booker T. Washington Business College and I got into data processing. HUNTLEY: So that' ; s your occupation? JERNIGAN: No, not exactly. At the time I was wanting to study something else and I worked in it a little while before breaking down with my illness. HUNTLEY: What community were you reared in? JERNIGAN: In the Woodlawn community which is on the northside of town? HUNTLEY: Sort of eastside. JERNIGAN: Eastside. Yes. By the airport. I was raised up by the Birmingham airport. There was a nice Black community there and that' ; s where I was. It was in the Woodlawn, Groveland area. HUNTLEY: How would you describe your community? JERNIGAN: It was an all Black neighborhood, completely Black. You knew each other. You went over each other' ; s house. You played what we called like in a circle, which our house faced everybody. And you played, you went to school together, you caught the bus together, it was a completely Black community. HUNTLEY: What kind of occupations did people have that lived in your community? JERNIGAN: Most of the people were, some of the women were like housewives and most of the men were like blue-collar workers with the exception of my dad and a couple of others. Daddy was the type that he might have been a little bit blue-collar but he went on to try to pursue himself to further jobs, like in insurance and he was in the ministry. And, also he worked with the Movement, the Birmingham Christian Movement. HUNTLEY: What was your father' ; s name? JERNIGAN: Rev. Charles Billups. HUNTLEY: Rev. Charles Billups. So he was very, very active in the Movement? JERNIGAN: Very active in the Movement. HUNTLEY: Yes. What do you remember about your high school days at Hayes High School? JERNIGAN: My high school days were quite different from a normal high school person. I had to travel with my father wherever they went, like to the rallies or whatever. So it was like high school there for school, back home, in the car. Going with him to rallies or whatever and when they were planning to have those meetings and planning what they were going to do about boycotting or whatever. HUNTLEY: Let' ; s just sort of back up just a bit. Talk a little about your father because you are referring to your father and you are going to the rallies and going to the meetings. We know that Rev. Billups was very, very active in the Movement. He was really just as active as almost anyone else in the city. As a person being so active and you being his daughter, tell me what impact did it have on you to have to be involved? Because you really didn' ; t have a choice as little kids. JERNIGAN: I didn' ; t have a choice. We were his children. There were a lot of things happening. The bomb threats. Constant, ugly telephone threats. Riding up to the house saying things or throwing things on the porch. And that made us have to be involved with him as if we were in it and working it too. HUNTLEY: Do you ever remember a time in your life when your father was not involved in the Movement? JERNIGAN: I do not remember a time that he was not involved. This was a everyday, seven day a week process of getting in the car with him, when we had to. He could not leave us at home. His thing was " ; not to leave us at home." ; So that would impact on me to like to really learn how to be like an overseer, grow up fast. My childhood was like, I wouldn' ; t say, shattered, but I was pushed to learned how to be mature. HUNTLEY: And you being the oldest, then you had to sort of oversee the rest of the children? JERNIGAN: Right. Make decisions that I didn' ; t think I was going to be able to make. HUNTLEY: How did that impact upon you in your life as a high school student? JERNIGAN: As a high school student I became very quiet. I was a little bit angry. Disgusted sometimes. HUNTLEY: Why were you? JERNIGAN: Because I missed out on a lot of things. I would come in and try to tell the students about certain things and I didn' ; t know how to tell them. In high school a lot of the teachers there were trying to avoid being in the Movement, so they would start doing little ugly things like saying, " ; Why is your daddy going to get us in trouble?" ; And " ; We' ; re not going to be getting out there." ; Little things like that. Then there were a lot of them that went along with him and they were very protective of me. A lot of them tried to understand and help me through that high school period of time with my subjects. HUNTLEY: There were times then when you had assignments and there were many times when you probably had difficulty in completing those. JERNIGAN: Right. I can tell you one story. I had a biology teacher and she gave me a " ; D" ; because I went back and I knew that I did not do the exact projects but I did study, so I did a couple of collections and an experiment of my own, and she said, " ; That' ; s just not good enough." ; But I was trying to tell her I did that because we used to have to go and sit with daddy at the Gaston Motel and wait for them to go in and out of those meetings and that was like 10:00 o' ; clock at night when we would take my mom to work. We would get back home at 6:00. And we were trying to get homework in a car, under a streetlight, well the motel light. And I could not prepare things or study like I wanted to. But I did do good on that project, but she just didn' ; t want to accept that. HUNTLEY: Can you give me a description of the typical day in your life as a child during the period - the height of the Movement with your father being so active? What would you do in the morning and how would that impact upon the rest of your day? What time would you leave home in the morning, what time would you get back? JERNIGAN: There were specials. At that time there were special buses that could come to the community to take you to high school. So we would get up like 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning, catch that special and get on it. That' ; s a full day at school. Daddy and them would probably tell the kids that we were going to go on these marches or whatever and they might come and get kids. School might be out at 12:00, or it would be a regular day but when we got home like 3:00 or 3:30 our time started. We had to start getting our lesson, prepare ourselves because we knew we had to leave with daddy that night. So you missed out on a lot of things. HUNTLEY: So you would simply anticipate practically every night going with your father? JERNIGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you were going to the mass meetings? JERNIGAN: To the mass meetings and to sit in the car while they were upstairs at the motel planning those meetings. HUNTLEY: " ; They?" ; Who are you referring to when you say " ; they?" ; JERNIGAN: It was my daddy, Martin Luther King, Rev. Shuttlesworth, Rev. Vivian, Andy Young, Rev. Smith and all the community people that got themselves involved. This involved deacons, people that had these blue-collar jobs that wanted to work with the Movement. Rev. Abernathy, Rev. Gardner, some of the meetings were even held at his church sometimes. HUNTLEY: Right. Now, when you attended the mass meetings, I' ; ve gotten different kinds of descriptions of what they were like. As a teenager, how would you describe a typical mass meeting? JERNIGAN: Well, since I' ; m a music type person and I' ; m creative, oh, they were very exciting, exhilarating, moving. But I was frightened. Because the people were dogmatic about what they were going to do. I knew they were dogmatic, because like I say, we saw them at the motel planning and they would come out and take those breaks and they would be talking about what they were going to do. And when they were in there and the choir would get to singing and people were actually shouting and say, " ; Yes, we are." ; This is women and men and they were involved. So yes, I was very exhilarated about the rallies but at the same time, I was kind of tired, kind of angry because I knew I had to come off a little bit of that " ; high" ; because I was thinking about my homework because I was very young. And, then, the other part I was always made to sit by some more children if their parents were there and my own sisters and my cousins and we would stay in line. We would stay on the bench. The other thing about the rally. After everything was over and all the people were gone, we were still there to maybe 1:00 and 2:00 maybe 3:00 in the morning. HUNTLEY: Why were you still there? JERNIGAN: Because the men that were involved decided to keep on talking about what they were going to do and making plans and they would stay sometimes in Rev. Smith' ; s office until 1:00 or 2:00 o' ; clock in the morning. Or either at 16th Street just talking on the steps and we' ; re still sitting in the car, or we' ; re sitting on the steps. We' ; re sitting on the sidewalk. We' ; re doing everything. HUNTLEY: Did you understand this? Were you understanding of what was happening? JERNIGAN: Yes. A little bit. Because there was one time when that was going on, sometimes they would come up and talk to us and say " ; How you all doing tonight?" ; And you know, kind of explain to us what was going on. And we would have morning meetings and daddy would sit us down and say " ; You know what, I don' ; t know how far this is going." ; HUNTLEY: You mean family meetings? JERNIGAN: Yes, with my father and he would tell us " ; This might be history. This is for your benefit. We are moving on. I will not have a child of mine coming up like me and that' ; s why your daddy is out there." ; HUNTLEY: Tell me about your mother. What was she doing? JERNIGAN: My mother was a very quiet person but very intelligent. She stood by my daddy real good. She helped write out things, corrected them and she would say, " ; Charles, you don' ; t say it like that, you do it like this." ; And she would help him with certain things. But at the same time my mother had a hard time because she was about one of the only wives that really worked as far as a regular job. HUNTLEY: She was not just a housewife? JERNIGAN: That' ; s right. She became a nurse at the University of Alabama which then was Hillman Hospital. And every time something would happen with the Movement, " ; All right nigger Billups. I know you ain' ; t going out there with your nigger husband." ; And they would give her pink slips, the works. She was working with intensive care babies, they might give her the worse ones. " ; And you are going to stay here until your job is done, I don' ; t care if you hear anything about your husband, you will not leave." ; The day that those young ladies got bombed from 16th Street, they had people down there identifying and everything. The first thing that came to mom. " ; Nurse Billups, I dare you to go downstairs. You are going to get fired. I know your nigger husband is down there." ; She said, this is how she was talked to from the head nurse. HUNTLEY: You said she called her " ; Nurse Billups?" ; JERNIGAN: Nurse Billups and nigger. They did use those words quite frequently and with her. HUNTLEY: And for the White nurses they always called them Miss or Mrs? JERNIGAN: No. They always called her nurse. HUNTLEY: I mean for White nurses? JERNIGAN: Oh yes. They had to call them by their names. Mrs. so and so or whatever. Dr. whoever. HUNTLEY: Your mother, did she normally work night shift? JERNIGAN: She normally worked night shift. She was working the 11:00 to 7:00 shift. So that meant she had to be there like 10:30. So that' ; s when we would leave out at 10:30. She would want to be there about 10:30 to get there 30 minutes before time. She was a very prompt person. She knew her job well. HUNTLEY: So then as you all were attending the mass meetings, she basically was at work or preparing to go to work? JERNIGAN: That' ; s right. And she would tell my father, " ; All right. I know you are just taking them with you to go work with me, but you are going to take them back home." ; He would say, " ; Yes." ; But he knew he was going to detour and take us on to a mass meeting or either we were going to go to Smith and Gaston Motel. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that experience. After the meetings, and then there would be a meeting after the meeting by the leaders of the Movement, your father being one of those. Other children who had actually participated in the mass meetings, they were now able to go home, and you were still out waiting? JERNIGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you ever have the experience of just talking with Dr. King or any of the other ministers? JERNIGAN: Oh, yes. That' ; s what was so memorable. And now that I' ; m 45 years old and I look back at that and I say we were just treated like ordinary people and holding conversations because you are youth. And you know you are going to give people respect. We already thought they were something, like really tops. But not in the manner that I thought history was being made and all this other stuff was going to come about and books would be written and everything. But, we had a chance to sit down at the table with them and others and eat snacks. And, one time we were there during our lunch time. We went one Saturday. But this was like a every night thing. And they would even bring, because at the motel you could smell the food just cooking. And they would tell them to bring stuff out to us. And, then, in return sometime they would tell us to come in there and eat with them. So we got a chance to sit down at what I called a " ; Feasting Table" ; and eat with these people while they are still talking about the plans they are going to have for the Movement. The ones that they accomplish. The ones they didn' ; t accomplish so well. I got a chance to see them really cry about something that didn' ; t go well. HUNTLEY: Did you ever remember them leaving and going to a demonstration and returning after that demonstration? JERNIGAN: When they would have several of the demonstrations, especially when they would get the children, go to the high schools and the children would come from Parker and Hayes, whatever. I did not go. I would go back home. Because we knew we were going to be leaving that night. We would come back. And after one of those nights when all of those children got put in jail, a couple of people got hurt or whatever, like I said, we would come back and we would get a chance to see them on a balcony, leaning against the balcony saying " ; Man, that was just a little bit too much." ; And the children were down there. And I actually saw them cry. Then I actually saw them be a little happy about something that did go through. HUNTLEY: You had mentioned earlier something about the blue-jean suits? JERNIGAN: Yes. Of course you know we are youth. We are 12, 11, 10. You have got to find something to make it kind of comical because you are going through so many changes. So when they decided to wear those blue jean suits, they were some spiffy folks but we are going to start calling them the Blue-jean Brigade because they were all just dressed up as if they were in the military. I mean they had their stuff starched and everything. And we said, " ; Oh, well yeah, there goes the Blue-jean Brigade." ; We would even holler it out the window. Because like I say, you are youth then. You are going to do something that you don' ; t have no business. So when we would see them we would holler out the window, " ; Oh, well, there goes the Blue-jean Brigade." ; I can remember the suits that they wore. And once when I went to the museum down at Atlanta and I can remember that suit very well that Martin Luther King wore. And I used to really like seeing them -- after I knew what they were doing they started explaining, so I used to like to see them doing it because it stood out. And it was like their uniform. They were wearing them to let them know this is what they were doing to represent their Black men working for the Black people and it was just amazing. HUNTLEY: I normally ask a question about the relationship between the Birmingham Police Department and the community. JERNIGAN: Oh wow. I would say the police department didn' ; t like us at all. We were total outcasts. There were several days that we would be riding along in the car with my daddy and they would just stop us. I was wondering why and how. How did they even know it was our car? But I found out in later years they had marks on the cars. They knew what was going on. They would stop to get my daddy out of the car, give him a ticket. Take it back. Give him a ticket and take it back. That kind of thing. And this was like sometime at night, during the day. We could even be going to the grocery store and he might get stopped. So they were not nice at all. HUNTLEY: Did they ever come to your house? JERNIGAN: Yes. One night daddy had been to a mass meeting and the police department was out there then talking about how much noise or whatever. Anyway, he touched the collar of one of the policemen and so they say he was insubordinating an officer. So they decided to come to the house and get him. So they come in about 10 or 11 of them. They knock on the door and knocked the screen door down and come on in like " ; this my house," ; and come on in. My mother was at a mission meeting. You know, then you used to go from house to house. She was at a mission meeting and they had to call her to come back up the hill. In that timing they had took him out, threw him up against the car. One of them standing there is taking my sister' ; s Zero candy bar and she bit him. She bit the policeman. HUNTLEY: She bit the policeman? JERNIGAN: Yes. And he got up to kind of do his hand and hit her and he said, " ; Kill me first before you hit my child." ; And they said my dad went up and got my mom and brought them up the hill. But my sister, who is Helene Renee, went out fighting, thinking she could fight those 11. HUNTLEY: Did they arrest her? JERNIGAN: No. Just kind of pushed her back and my daddy, that' ; s when he said, " ; Take me, do whatever you want to me but don' ; t hurt my children." ; We were having dinner. Daddy had come home that night and we were sitting down as a family and we were having dinner and they just rushed right in. And, at the same time, the neighbors said, " ; Oh, Lord. You' ; re fixing to get us killed." ; " ; Oh, my God." ; HUNTLEY: Who were they referring to? JERNIGAN: People in our neighborhood referring to daddy. And at that point, a lot of people in the neighborhood didn' ; t want to babysit us. So that' ; s why we had to be carried with him. HUNTLEY: Why did they not want to babysit you? JERNIGAN: Because they thought probably the policeman would come in the neighborhood and bother them too. HUNTLEY: So they were afraid to even be associated with you? JERNIGAN: Right. Some of them were very cooperative and some of them were very low down. I hate to say that word, but they didn' ; t even want to hear about the Movement. We were outcasts. " ; There goes that Rev. Billups and he' ; s going to get us in trouble." ; HUNTLEY: What kind of relationship then did you have with children your age? JERNIGAN: I had friends. And they liked me. But it was like still I was maturing a little bit more than them and it was like I was talking about things that they weren' ; t even thinking about. HUNTLEY: Were there any of the children in your neighborhood or in your school that was involved in the Movement? JERNIGAN: Yes. Whenever they would say about " ; Come on and let' ; s go boycott," ; a lot of them would go. A lot of them would go back home. It was not a time to go back home from school. I saw that inside stuff. A lot of them did go. They went and they cooperated. But a lot of them would go back or make up any excuse. There was one other time, the night that daddy got beat up. He was working at Hayes Aircraft at the time. And, some kind of way he wanted to take a shower and he said this is how it started. So the showers were all filled where the Black people would go, so he went on over to the White side. And from my memory I think he said they waited about a week later. But anyway there was a neighbor that he rode with and what they did, they picked him and the neighbor up. They blind folded both of them but they let him back off at his house. HUNTLEY: Let the neighbor off at his house? JERNIGAN: Yes. And this man lived like five doors down from us. And they took daddy off which was right where the mall -- because I even get cringed when I go to Eastwood Mall now. When it was woods then and that' ; s where he got beat up. The Klu Klux Klan or the Citizens Council took him there and beat him up. Chained him to a tree and beat him up. But what I looked at was this man was five doors down, knowing me and mom and all of us in the house and he did not come and tell us anything. HUNTLEY: So, when did you find that your father got beat up? JERNIGAN: Daddy crawled to the highway and do you know, a policeman was there to pick him up. And it was like, y' ; all through doing what y' ; all doing to this nigger, and took him on to the hospital and Rev. Smith followed from there and he told momma what had happened. Of course that was a shock to me. That stunned me too. Because when he finally came home I just saw all these marks on him and everything and he was still telling us. Something like what Christ did. " ; Forgive them, they don' ; t know what they were doing." ; And I was saying, " ; How?" ; And I was in fifth grade then and that really shocked me. I was angry at a point all of my life that I wanted to fight. Like now, I told you I had been in the military. If I had a M-16 like I learned how to shoot then, I would have used it with no problem. Oh, yes. I probably would have used it. I was just that angry because I didn' ; t know how to tell anybody what I was feeling. HUNTLEY: Well, what do you remember as a result of that and in your returning to school did your teachers talk about it? Did your friends know? JERNIGAN: I had one teacher that was very good to me and the other school counselor, Mrs. Helen Heath. HUNTLEY: This is at Hayes High School? JERNIGAN: Hayes, yes. And I would go in Mrs. Heath' ; s office and just sit straight like this and tears would just be rolling down my face and that' ; s her way of even listening to me. She understood. Then there were other people, neighbors who really knew daddy and they were involved like Mrs. Radney. She kind of stuck behind us and some of the neighbors and other ministers when we practically at times stayed over Rev. Smith' ; s house with Mrs. Smith, Mrs. Hendricks. Folks like that. These were our nurturing people. So when you really wanted to ball up and cry and me, I was always the loudest and when I cry and I really get mad, I tear up things. I would say these people were kind of able to calm me down. But I could not control it. When I really got tore up, I was tore up. I mean I was a young shouting girl and 10 and 12 years old and I always shouted or whatever. HUNTLEY: Always very emotional? JERNIGAN: Yes. And even then I learned how to hum Dr. Watts to keep me out of trouble. HUNTLEY: To do what? JERNIGAN: To get me out of trouble and stop from maybe cursing or saying something ugly. Because they were really on to you about these older people and you are supposed to take your place. But then, at a point where you were just angry you say, " ; I want to do something about this, I' ; m angry, I don' ; t like what' ; s going on." ; HUNTLEY: Now, you, and your siblings were never arrested? JERNIGAN: No. I was never arrested but we was always in and around it. We had the involvement. Like when they said they were going to Selma or Cullman or something like that, we' ; re in the car and we' ; re getting the experience of them actually going in there and we standing up there like nuts and they are going in there. And they are going into the back getting sandwiches and stuff and hear them calling " ; We don' ; t serve niggers and no nigger children." ; I didn' ; t get that involvement by going inside of jail and being locked up or nothing like that. But I saw them doing this and saw the experience. It was hands on that I can' ; t explain. HUNTLEY: Well, you had an experience that others didn' ; t have because you were actually there. JERNIGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you actually saw it. JERNIGAN: Yes. I saw them slap somebody. Talking about, " ; We don' ; t serve nobody, get your nigger butt out of here." ; And if this was not on tape, I' ; d say a couple of other words they said. " ; And you can' ; t talk, you ignorant. We don' ; t even want your money." ; And I saw them do that. I mean it was nothing for daddy and Rev. Vivian and them and Rev. Smith to stop at some store and they knew that Black people were not suppose to be in there. And they go there and say, " ; We are going to get y' ; all a hamburger." ; HUNTLEY: How did you feel about that? JERNIGAN: I was frightened. I was really frightened because I was frightened for my dad. HUNTLEY: Did you ever wish that they would not do that? JERNIGAN: Sometimes, yes. Because I was frightened. A lot of times I thought it was the boldest thing to do but a lot of times I was frightened because they were cruel. When one White person -- it' ; s not no one White person that comes after you, they bring the group. Where one Black man might stand there, that' ; s what I learned, he might stand there and you know, like accept so many slaps, but they got to bring their group with them to get what they want to have going. And even though, I saw, the White women that used to be behind the counters and it realized that they stayed no more than in the projects and they weren' ; t even educated and trying to -- you know I saw that and that' ; s what really got me. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the Easter' ; s and Christmas' ; that you couldn' ; t go to the stores. JERNIGAN: Well, I must tell you we will learn why Jesus was here, because daddy said it wasn' ; t our birthday and we weren' ; t going to by anything out of those stores because they were boycotting. So you know how you see all the little programs, like the dolls and this, that and the other and we might get something but it was very much after Christmas at some other store. He frequented Atlantic Mills a lot. But we didn' ; t get anything on that day and no Easter. Forget it. Because that meant going and buying something and trading with people that did not want to trade with you. So of course, you know, you see all the little people going out with their dresses on, which I loved the silk organza at that time and the stand out slips and everything and the little flowers in their hair. And we had to wear this and dress up in this and it was like, " ; Gosh, I don' ; t want to get up and say my Easter speech in this dress." ; And then my feet, I hate to put this here. I have bad feet. I am flat footed and it' ; s like Parisian' ; s and Pizitz were the only stores that sold those good shoes, but no, no, no. We had to pick other stores because he wasn' ; t going in that store. So guys used to be just walking behind me and say, Oh, knocked-kneeded Charlotte and her two left feet." ; And I would be up at the house just crying. But I knew what was going on. But it was like a child then, I could not take that. HUNTLEY: There was an experience when you were in school when you had a project to do? JERNIGAN: Yes, and getting ready for something. One of my teachers was a sewing teacher -- home economics. She told me she was going to give me an " ; F." ; And she knew what was going on. I mean these teachers knew. HUNTLEY: She knew that your father was -- JERNIGAN: She knew that daddy was involved because my daddy was one of these parents that came, talking about parents don' ; t go to PTO or whatever, oh, he stayed at the school. Every other day. He was preaching about something, about the kids and the youth. " ; Y' ; all need to come out of here and pay attention." ; I mean he was at the school. All right. She knew that. And she told me -- my project was to make a jacket, dress coat and a dress, you know with a jacket and dress, whatever with bound buttonholes and everything, which is very hard. So I said, " ; I cannot get my material which you want me to get from that place, my daddy is going to have to get it from somewhere else." ; My aunt from out of town even offered to send me the material in the mail. She said she didn' ; t want that, she wanted the kind that was right there at Pizitz. So I went down there and I got it anyway. HUNTLEY: Now, this is at a time when the boycott is going on? JERNIGAN: Right at the heat of the boycott. And Charlotte goes in there and gets linen material, I don' ; t think I like linen anything today. For some reason it bites me. Because I got a whipping. That evening I got a whipping. HUNTLEY: How did he find out that you had gone? JERNIGAN: Because he saw the material and the tag from the store. HUNTLEY: How did he approach you? JERNIGAN: Oh, I got a whipping. All right. HUNTLEY: Did he talk with you? JERNIGAN: Yes. He cried. He cried real bad afterwards. Because I guess he was thinking now that I' ; m grown and he was thinking of all they were going through and this woman made my child. But he went to the school. And my daddy was a very bold person and he confronted her. And even to this day when my children was going to school, something I didn' ; t understand, I learned from that. I would go and find out, " ; Why did you do that? You put pressure on this child." ; And out of all of that, I still really didn' ; t make a good grade because she had something against us. She just didn' ; t go along with the Movement or nothing. She aggravated me. She told me I didn' ; t know how to dress and all that. And then, after that my teeth were messed up at the same time, so she was one of them that made me started doing things knowing what was going on. HUNTLEY: You were affected by an illness that you really didn' ; t understand at that time? JERNIGAN: Yes. Now, they have found out I have Lupus. And Lupus is a connective tissue disease. Then I was having headaches, losing my hair, bizarre attitude, just sick. At night, tired. Then we didn' ; t know. We didn' ; t find out I had Lupus until I got into the military. But when we looked back at the same symptoms, and, then, I was really getting sick. I would get fevers, cold, constantly stayed in the women' ; s advisor at high school, having to be sick and brought back home. And daddy used to have to leave from where he was and come get me and take me back home. I ran low blood, everything, but I was sick. And, then, all of a sudden I would get well. That' ; s how Lupus is. So, now it has crippled me. HUNTLEY: When did you go into the military? JERNIGAN: I went in the military in ' ; 75. HUNTLEY: What branch? JERNIGAN: Army. HUNTLEY: What did you do in the military? JERNIGAN: I was clerk, which you do a little bit of everything as far as paperwork. I was a Morning Clerk. You keep up with all the records of your company and battalion. At the same time, me being Miss Creative, I would always be singing and some kind of way one of the officers heard me singing and I got picked for that -- to sing with the army for about a year and a half. I was always doing something. And that part I really much enjoyed because I got a chance to really perform in what you call in front of people of all nationalities. And to feel good about it, daddy had always told us to respect nationalities. Because in the Movement it was many nationalities there. Black, White, Indian, Chicano. I mean they were there. Oriental. And, then, I went to the army and saw the same thing. And being able to perform and do that in front of them. But you know when I was in the military, every time they would play the Star Spangled Banner, I would break down and start crying. And the guys would ask me why. I' ; d say, every time I see you and knew the way they even do you all now, I cannot forget those days behind. So one morning, while in the military, I had acted like I was in church. We were doing the Star Spangled Banner and I decided to shout. So one man said, " ; Out of all of my years in the military I' ; ve never seen a woman get down on the floor and shout." ; And I was shouting then too. And, then, I could do a high " ; C" ; soprano and everything. It was like I knew about the passed and knew what was going on until I just got involved with being in the military and seeing these people and looking at them. And I said, " ; Uh-huh. Now, I' ; m matching everything up. I see how they make rules overnight. I see how they do things and how they say you can do it and you can' ; t." ; And, then, while I was in their choir, I remember one Sunday, my captain, he was from Czechoslovakia. And, in the army everybody is prim and proper in church. And they say, " ; We' ; re having church, and we' ; re going to talk about." ; So I did Precious Lord as if I was down here at New Pilgrim again. So when we were going out of the church, his wife had just come and she could not speak any English. She said, " ; I don' ; t know, but God Love, God Love." ; And they said, " ; Don' ; t never let Charlotte sing or be over nothing, because she is going to have the whole roof." ; HUNTLEY: So you didn' ; t just have chapel? JERNIGAN: No. They were trying to learn at that time how to integrate women with men. So I told them you are going to have to do that. I said, " ; That' ; s what' ; s important. You are going to have to let women be with men on these floors. And, then, you won' ; t have all these problems or anything." ; And I had a lot of confrontations with Whites. Real bad. And what I would do to get out of trouble, they would say, " ; Let Charlotte come down here and help us, because she is going to start humming one of those Dr. Watts, and that comes from slavery. That is true. HUNTLEY: What do you mean " ; humming Dr. Watts?" ; JERNIGAN: A charge to keep I have, a God to glorify and Father, I stretch my hand to thee, no other help I know. You do that and a Black person, they' ; re going to move. They' ; re not going to ask you anything. I never got an Article 15 or whatever. And, if a Black guy got in trouble, I would knock on his door and whispered to him, " ; Please don' ; t do that." ; I even, not really lied for anybody, but there was once where a Black guy was going to get in trouble -- this White girl said he had took her money. And I said, " ; She gave it to you, you took it, but why did you take it?" ; But, at the same time I went and I stood up for him and I knew how to do it from my experiences in the past. I said, " ; She gave it to him and she took it. She gave it to him. He does not need to get an Article 15." ; So they would always say whatever goes on, call Charlotte Jernigan, she' ; ll help you. I thought she was going to start humming one of those Dr. Watts and they are going to leave all of us alone. So that was some of the experience that I had in the military. HUNTLEY: Let me back up just a bit. 1963 in Birmingham was sort of the highlight of the Movement with the demonstrations and, then, finally with the bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church. Do you remember that? JERNIGAN: Yes. I remember that. We were home that Sunday. Thank God we didn' ; t go anywhere with daddy. When they said they had bombed the church, he went immediately down there. There was a sad feeling. I felt as those there was a dark, dark, dark shadow over Birmingham and it wasn' ; t going to move. That hurt me too. That was about the hardest thing I ever heard of in my life. And, then, to know these people who were involved and that was their child. HUNTLEY: Did you know the children? JERNIGAN: I didn' ; t know them, per se, close, close. But you probably had seen them or talked to them, but not close. But, I new dad and Chris McNair was kind of close there. Because he was always doing photography. And what got me about that, like I told you once before, when they brought those children to the hospital for identification, they went up there and they got momma immediately and said, " ; Your nigger husband is downstairs, and you ain' ; t going down there." ; And this is like, how did they know who she was? That' ; s why I try to tell people, you got to read between the lines. Never think you can get by with anything, these folks know sometime when you went to the bathroom, so don' ; t play with it. I tell people that now when they say, " ; I got it made, I got it made." ; When they want you off that job that you think you got, they will get you. They are already writing everything down. I mean, I learned that from that. Because they didn' ; t know exactly, I thought who momma was, but she said they immediately came up there and told her, " ; Don' ; t you go down there. Your nigger husband." ; And this is on a professional job. This is the University of Alabama. HUNTLEY: What is your most memorable remembrance of the Movement? JERNIGAN: What just sticks in my head? HUNTLEY: Yes. JERNIGAN: Both times, when my daddy got beat, slammed up against the car, When he got beat up and had to come home. HUNTLEY: Wait a minute, " ; slammed up against the car?" ; JERNIGAN: You know when I told you they came to the house? HUNTLEY: Yes. JERNIGAN: And being at that motel and sitting there and getting out of the car and being told not to get out of the car. It was like in jail. It was a horrible feeling. HUNTLEY: Sitting in the car, waiting for your dad who was inside trying to prepare for the Movement? JERNIGAN: Right. HUNTLEY: And he is trying to liberate Black people, but by the same token it appeared from your perspective that you were imprisoned? JERNIGAN: Right. And I was told even then, " ; You' ; re in charge." ; That meant, if anything went wrong I would get fussed at. The most memorable time comes when I was 13. I used to like to see the Freedom Riders come in because these were college students and we were 13, 14 and 10 years old and we' ; re looking out there at the people passing by and they would come over to the car and talk to us. Bring us something from out of the kitchen or whatever. And there were a lot of racists then. And, then, the most memorable time is knowing that this was so important is meeting all those ministers. They had reached their plateau and made a contribution back. Men such as Martin Luther King. Rev. Shuttlesworth, Rev. Smith. HUNTLEY: N. H. Smith? JERNIGAN: Yes. I saw them as young men, and I have had a chance to see them get old. And, for some reason when I look at them, they kind of still look like that person. They still look like those people that we had to mind. I got a chance to see that strong Black man from looking at that. I mean, I saw them up and down. I saw them plan out something and really work it because I could see him working it and they would go out the next day and they would really do it. And it is kind of comical now, but one of the funniest things was when me and my cousin decided to fight outside of the car. We didn' ; t want to sit in the car that long. And so we decided to come on the outer side of the car and she shook the car. We had a Ford then. And she shook the car and first, who we called Pot bellied, he came down first and he said, " ; Aren' ; t you all Billups children? Aren' ; t you supposed to be in that car?" ; We said, " ; No, we ain' ; t getting in this car. Not tonight. It' ; s too hot, we tired." ; He said, " ; Okay. I guess I have to go get him." ; And after that Rev. Smith comes down and he tries to stop us. And, then, here comes Martin Luther King. And if that floor of that ground could have broken up. Because he was a soft speaker but yet a stirring person. " ; What' ; s wrong with you young ladies, how are you all doing tonight?" ; And we were trying to figure out what to do next because we were so embarrassed. He said, " ; I think I' ; m going to go up there and get Billups and tell him he needs to come down and attend to you all. You all are kind of tired." ; So he had them to go in and get us some ice cream and after that it was a good break. And he sat there and he talked to us. And, this wasn' ; t one night, this was every night almost. And, I' ; m sitting there and I see the people when they were really excited and I then I would go to schools and one little girl said, " ; Let me touch your hand, the hand that touched Martin Luther King." ; And I told them they were just ordinary men. They didn' ; t want no praise. All they were about was for getting something done for their people. And that' ; s pretty much what they told us. But that experience really sticks with me and I get tickled how we just got embarrassed by this man. He didn' ; t embarrass us, he thought it was kind of funny. And, in return, I liked those times, which I missed, because you understood that world and I liked to hear what was going on and I liked to keep up. And, when daddy got killed and everything, in Chicago, like that. Daddy exposed us to a lot. We got a chance to meet people, eat with them. Go to their homes and see people in different places. I' ; ve seen people where they started out with nothing who were in the Movement and they are doing well now. HUNTLEY: Let me just ask you -- you were never arrested. But when the buses finally desegregated, you did ride the buses. Can you tell me anything about that? JERNIGAN: Now, that' ; s when I did my thing, on the bus. While the buses were being boycotted they would make you pay, in front and walk around to the side. So me and -- HUNTLEY: They would make you pay in the front and walk to the side to get on the bus? JERNIGAN: Yes. I used to get bus tokens and bus cards. So this particular day we get on where Sloss Furnace is now. We are fighting on the bus because we didn' ; t want to get around to the back because when we got back there, I was bold then and go up and hit folks and come on back, because they didn' ; t know. These silly White people would be sitting up in the front standing squashed, trying to keep from sitting down with people and didn' ; t want you up there. We used to do some silly stuff. We even moved the signs around a couple of times. But, at the same time we' ; d hit and fight. And, then, there would be people on the bus, Black people would say, " ; I' ; m going to tell your daddy on you." ; HUNTLEY: Who would you hit and fight? JERNIGAN: White people, the White kids. Because they were on there getting ready to go home too. Sometimes they had to catch that bus. JERNIGAN: So one day, this was we were going because I told you we used to have to stay with my grandmother sometimes when it was just necessary, unless we could not go with daddy. So we got on what you call 17 Irondale. And you know, then they had the bus, what' ; s that little thing, when you are changing from one side of town to the other? HUNTLEY: Transfer. JERNIGAN: Transfer. Me and my cousin, which was a guy and the young lady cousin we had got on. We told them we weren' ; t going to pay our money and go around to the back. So we got in the front. So I was good and strong then. I bumped and I pushed and I knocked folks down. I even tied a White girl' ; s hair up on the thing you hold on. I tied her hair on to the thing and dared her to move. And I tied it tight and I said, " ; Don' ; t you say not one word." ; I said, " ; I' ; m going to kick you." ; I mean I was just that -- I said, " ; This is the time to take out my anger." ; HUNTLEY: And this is Rev. Billups daughter? JERNIGAN: Yes. So we get on the bus and the bus man just fussing at us so one day he decided to get us. " ; Where is your transfer and I want your bus card. I want your D-A-M-N bus card." ; Me and my cousin tore up the bus card and we ate it and swallowed it. Right between where they called like the gap between Gate City and going into Irondale. I know you all have seen it. It' ; s where the train track is. You know Lawson Field is over from there now. Well, right there is the change over from Birmingham and we had to " ; Well, that' ; s all right. I' ; ll never let you off the bus." ; So this man decides to ride us all over by Eastwood Mall and back again. When we got back around to Irondale again, I said, " ; Man, I fixing to mow your head right here in this thing for holding me." ; " ; I' ; m going to call the police." ; I said, " ; You might as well call him, what more can you do to me?" ; So my cousin preceded to kind of take his head and stick it out of the window. HUNTLEY: The bus driver' ; s head or his head? JERNIGAN: And we left him there. HUNTLEY: Or his head, because he was embarrassed? JERNIGAN: No. No. We put it there. My cousin put it there. HUNTLEY: Oh, you put the bus driver' ; s head through the window? JERNIGAN: Yes. And he left it there. Then when they integrated the buses they decided they were going to get on the bus and we could get on the normal way, but they didn' ; t want to sit by you. So the White kids, especially from Woodlawn, they decided that since Woodlawn was all white, then they put their books down in the seat and I just shoved them off to the floor. " ; You can' ; t sit here the book can' ; t sit here." ; I would take my leg and put it up on the thing and I said, " ; You know you better not put it on my leg. No way." ; And, then, even then I started hollering, singing Dr. Watts. Because I always liked to sing anyway. Another young lady I had to do her the same way. She decided, she called me a bitch and, " ; you all don' ; t need no rights no way." ; And she was coming from--but she was coming from there. Her parents on the same level as everybody else. " ; You all don' ; t need anything. You all don' ; t even take baths or nothing like that." ; I said, " ; Well, I tell you what, sister, we don' ; t take baths -- I' ; m going to show you how you supposed to take a bath in a shower." ; And I tied her hair up. I loved to fool with that long hair. I tied her hair up on the things you hold on to. I tied her hair up on there. And, some years back when you used to have the football games and the TB games? HUNTLEY: Yes. JERNIGAN: Now, that was a sad experience for me. I was a little girl then. I think I was about 8 or 9. HUNTLEY: At Rickwood Field? JERNIGAN: Yes. And there was no where to sit on the bus. I was so tired. And I fell getting on the bus and daddy sat me down. He moved the sign and a man came back there and slapped him. HUNTLEY: What was his response? JERNIGAN: He slapped him back and he said, " ; My child is sitting here and she is going to sit down." ; He said, " ; She' ; s hurt herself and she is going to sit down. So you might as well go on and beat me right here. Oh boy, that really got me. HUNTLEY: So what you were doing then, when you got in high school, you were remembering those kinds of experiences? JERNIGAN: A lot of us. A lot of the stuff that I would see them do, like going to those places outside around Birmingham going to get lunches and stuff like that, and I remember that. I mean just seeing my daddy go talk about. You know, he would try to get -- you know how you would go into regular business and stuff and they knew them. And they would call them all sorts of names. And it' ; s like, I don' ; t know. I hate to say when I got in the military a little bit and got a chance to really learn how to shoot and I said, " ; Lord, please forgive me." ; But you know what I used to learn. I shot those 425 meter targets thinking about the 60s and my drill sergeant said, " ; How did you do that?" ; And all I could think about was when they was beating up people. But I learned, I still, out of all of that I still learned how to love. I learned how to balance out my anger. HUNTLEY: Now, your family moved from Birmingham to Chicago during the time that Dr. King was marching. Can you tell me just a bit about that? JERNIGAN: Yes. When daddy, they went out to Cicero, they hurt them up real bad. HUNTLEY: Now, he had moved to Chicago? JERNIGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Had he moved to Chicago specifically to get involved and sort of lay the ground work for Dr. King? JERNIGAN: Right. He and others were the first ones to move there. HUNTLEY: Then eventually Dr. King would come and they would have the march through Cicero and the Chicago movement would take place, Operation Bread Basket? JERNIGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: But he had been one that laid foundation for it? JERNIGAN: He and others. HUNTLEY: Yes. Jesse Jackson I remember. HUNTLEY: Right. And that' ; s when I remember -- I met him one time I think in Birmingham, but that was when I really got to meet him was when I got into Chicago and I realized then he was just 27 years old. And that really gets me too. That' ; s when I got a chance to meet another set of people and these people were a little bit younger than them and they were dogmatic too. So daddy was up here. And what I did -- I was told that we needed a rest, so I didn' ; t move completely to Chicago with the family. I lived in Cleveland for a little while and went to school and then I later on joined them. And I got involved with Fellowship Baptist Church and everything with Rev. Evans and everybody. It was just like being here at home at New Pilgrim. So that became another big home setting for us. And movement going on again. It' ; s just that I' ; m a little older and can see things a little bit clearer. But we attended then Operation Breadbasket every Saturday morning. But then it was because we kind of wanted to. That was a good history information when we realized what was going on. So that was a like a joy to go there even though it was still dangerous. HUNTLEY: Were you in Chicago during the Cicero march? JERNIGAN: Yes. I was there. I was there. I always commuted back and forth. Sometimes I was there and daddy came home all swollen up and everything and that' ; s when Martin Luther King got hurt, too. As a matter of fact they did them real bad. And what hurt me about that. This was supposed to be in Chicago and I was able to come back to Birmingham and telling them " ; They had been worse than we are." ; I said, " ; They' ; re are not even allowed in certain parts of the town." ; And then I realized people were right in Chicago that had never even been to the beach. They were living right there in that ghetto. So that was a down break for me. They hadn' ; t even attended some of the best schools. They were in the ghetto and you talking about welfare and hunger, it was horrible, than it was here in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: So your father was very active in Chicago as well? JERNIGAN: Yes. He was very active. And I got a chance to see the Black Panther movement, the Disciples. All those kids. They are talking about gangs now, we saw them then. HUNTLEY: But your father though was killed. JERNIGAN: In Chicago. Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me anything about that? JERNIGAN: All we know, they found him and as far as I know it was on the southside in Hyde Park. We do not know what happened. But I do know when the Movement started quieting down and people started reaching out, he got a job with National Tea Company. And remember now, daddy only had a degree from Booker T, but he was always doing something and he wound up with one of the top jobs. And even then, he first started off in personnel and he started going around in these ghettos and stuff and hired people, you know, teaching them how to take the test and everything. And, then, after that he moved on up. But there were a couple of people there that told him, " ; You moving too fast." ; Even this is in Chicago now, and " ; You still a nigger." ; And they were saying we don' ; t know how you are getting this far and you got a bull shit degree. Just talking and we even got a chance to see that. But anyway they found him dead and they worked with it for awhile and, then, they didn' ; t work with it anymore. HUNTLEY: You never found out what happened? JERNIGAN: No. HUNTLEY: How would you evaluate the Movement? What benefits do you think were realized by you, your family and the community as a result of the efforts that your father was making? JERNIGAN: You mean, what do I feel now? Was it worth it? HUNTLEY: Yes. JERNIGAN: Did it accomplish anything? Yes. Definitely. I look at things -- the work was done, the foundation was laid, it was worked for. It' ; s almost like when somebody gives you the book. They wrote it for you. They put it there in front of you, but you got to open it. Okay. So it' ; s like, here it is. We were just like little slaves then. They went through their part. Somebody else went through their part and these people went through their part, now you take the book and open it. But I look at it as even some of the people, not mainstream in the Movement. Some of the people, not in the Movement, but kind of when they saw the things was all right, just went on and sat down. They figured out that " ; We ain' ; t got to go no further." ; So that made people kind of scatter themselves and started doing things like I' ; ve got it made and not keep working with the program and looking for somebody to work with it and it' ; s already been laid. Any young man, any young woman could get up and take over from where it left us. So it did benefit. We are in school. We are studying books. We are taking some people for a different thing. Because now, those same strong men and strong men who are even stronger now, I feel if they work with it now, can get out of here, they can clean up these neighborhoods. It' ; s not hard to do. You now if you clean some White people up, you can clean these kids up. All they want is you just talk to -- listen to them. And you tell them. People are not telling them. They got their jobs and they didn' ; t tell them how it happen. Because I' ; ve talked to children and they don' ; t know nothing about what went on, some of them. I know I have always given my children step by step and if my daughter was here now, she would tell you. And the result of it as far as daddy' ; s thing and his immediate family, my daughter attends the University of Alabama. She has traveled abroad and studied. She writes well and very out there. She is going to try anything. She is dogmatic. She has been in the reserves. She wants to do it. She is headstrong. My son, he' ; s headstrong. They are both in school. And one of the most important things, my children know how to read and write. And I mean read and write with intelligence. They know how to deal with people. If my son or daughter were here, I' ; m talking about the benefits from that, they would be able to hold you this same interview and talk to you and I think that is worth more than -- you know, like when daddy said, " ; How many went through?" ; But when he sees his own grandchildren made it. He has two more in North Carolina, Kara and Robert. And Robert is a straight A student in North Carolina where we know that' ; s still White folks and he' ; s making it, he' ; s roughing it. My little niece gets in, I mean they try everything. I mean from cello to talking, dancing, studying. They are not afraid to get on a bus or train, airplane by themselves and go. So in result I see my daddy, his dream really being fulfilled, you know, because they are out there. His four grandchildren, if he was back here and he could see them, I always tell my mom, all four of them, all four of them would always be in trouble because they know how to point their finger and say, " ; I' ; m going to do it and I' ; m going to be in it." ; So that result makes me feel good. You know, the other result, I' ; m glad even though I have my illness with Lupus I cannot go and meet every rally meeting or whatever now, I would love to get involved, but what I do is tutor and my tutoring is called motivation. I tell you to bring your child to my house. I cannot go up the steps. I attend Sardis now and where we have tutoring, you have to go up some stairs at the Family Life Center. I cannot make it up those stairs. The children come to the house. I have opened my house up to that. They come there. I teach them little artwork. I make them stand in the mirror and talk to themselves and say I' ; m somebody and their name. I teach them how to read and I motivate them that " ; Yes, you are going to get your biology and yes, you are going to get that history. Because, if you don' ; t you are wasting air time." ; HUNTLEY: You have obviously experienced an awful lot. There were times when you sat in the car and you were upset with your father. There were times when you were riding with your father and Rev. Smith and others and you saw them ostracized. You saw your father slapped on the bus, you saw your father beaten. If you had the power and you could go back, what would you change? JERNIGAN: I could not change -- I would not change the way they tried to conquer what they were conquering. I would not tell my daddy, " ; Don' ; t do it." ; I would tell him, " ; Keep on." ; No way I would say, " ; I' ; d rather be at home with my dolls, my favorite dolls and going out with this little guy down the street or having the little parties." ; No. I am so glad that God let me have that experience. I didn' ; t say man. I said God let me have that experience to see that because I would not be the person that I am today. And no I wouldn' ; t change anything because I got a chance to see life as it is. HUNTLEY: Well, finally, this has been a great afternoon. I' ; ve learned so much. Is there anything else you would like to add that we have not dealt with that was associated with the Movement? JERNIGAN: Yes. I would like to add that I' ; m glad I was able to contribute something to the museum and hope even further things. I hope I will be able to be called upon when they have groups there and I can come down and talk to the children. I love talking to children. I hope I can continue to be invited to schools to give one-on-one talks like I' ; ve done. I' ; m doing that now too, with Black and White kids. There was one I did and a little White guy came up to me and he hugged and he said he was not intending to be in the group. I said, " ; You will not, you will come and be with me." ; I' ; m going to have the kings on each side, Black and White." ; At the end, that poor child wanted to take me to the cafeteria and sit me down, he treated me like I was a queen. He said, " ; Lady I ain' ; t never seen no lady like you before." ; Because I was hugging them. I told them I didn' ; t care if they didn' ; t have on deodorant that day. We were all going to hug and I make them hold hands and clench each other after my presentations and I would like to keep that up. The other thing, people who have the time and the knowledge, I want them to come back out. Now, I didn' ; t tell you to conquer the world, but contribute what you can and make sure it' ; s from your heart. There is still a lot of hurting people out there. There' ; s a lot of things, people do not understand what' ; s happening. And it' ; s not that I feel that we are going to lose it, it' ; s just going to turn into something that we don' ; t understand. And I would always, I don' ; t care what happens to me, I' ; ve had two children, and I' ; ve been married. I had one and I wasn' ; t married, but that did not make me sit down and say, " ; I can' ; t stand that Black man." ; No. And that Black woman == I' ; ve written a poem and I' ; m getting ready to try to get a copy of it, called " ; Black Men Strapped to Your Back." ; And what I' ; m saying in there, he' ; s the king, he can do some stuff, he gets bitter, he acts a fool, he might even be abusive. This can be your brother, this can be your son, your father or your uncle, but he' ; s strapped to your back. The Black woman' ; s back. Because when a Black woman can look in a Black man' ; s eyes and I' ; ve learned how to do that. He can be an executive, street cleaner or whatever and you can look at his eyes and you can tell way back that way he' ; s still kind of hurting. And you don' ; t even have to say nothing, you have eye contact with him and he might come and lay his head in your lap and everything. You don' ; t have to say nothing. Because you are going to work as much as you can. This is what I saw the Black women doing during the Movement -- you are going to work as much as you can to still get him up that morning. That' ; s how my daddy made it and others and put that suit back on and that blue jean suit back on and say, " ; I' ; m out there again, because I can come back to who?" ; You know -- the Black woman. So I made up a poem called " ; The Black Man Strapped to My Back." ; Not saying he' ; s weak, I' ; m talking about carrying him in this love and understanding way. Until the day I die, I will never put down a Black man. Never, ever. No matter if he' ; s in that prison over there, over here doing this, because all of us are doing things we got no business and it hurts when they are doing it. But I will never and I hope I never have to live that down because that was something I learned even when I paint or whatever -- I still draw groupings of men. I mean Black men making it. He can do some stuff and I wish somebody could really point out that to him. I feel like a Black man could go out there, if he needed a house, if he could go to the woods and chop down some trees, he' ; ll build his family somewhere to live, because I saw them make something out of nothing. And I saw that and I' ; m glad I had that experience and I hope that I can always push that on with my son, anybody. Even when the garbage man comes by, I ask him, " ; Do you want some ice water?" ; And then I see somebody working for the telephone company. " ; Hi, how are you doing?" ; The same thing. And I thank God for that personality and the personality that he put me in and regular teach me how to be like that. Even though I' ; m crippled -- I am in constant pain every day -- I was not this size. I was a small person but I' ; m still learning how to love. HUNTLEY: You are obviously a treasure. The institute is serving as a repository for any items that you may have. For instance, your father may have papers that he left or anything like that. If you have things of that nature, we would very much appreciate you getting in touch with us. JERNIGAN: Well, I' ; ve already donated some pictures and a couple of pictures with them in groups and also some pictures of him when they were doing some marches right here in Birmingham and other places. We had a bad fire before the Institute opened and we had a lot of memorabilia. So it' ; s like what we are getting now is what we had to scrape up. And how I got some of those articles, my aunt in Cleveland, Ohio kept a lot of articles and she sent them to us. Now at home, I' ; m trying to write up but some time, right now it' ; s painful when you write these things out. You got to stop and start. I hope one day to come out with a book. I hope one day for one of my paintings or several of my paintings to be hung there in the Institute telling of my story. I' ; m doing one now with the blue jean suits on some canvas. And it' ; s real blue jean material. And I hope one day, those can be, which I know it' ; s going to be appreciated because these children will get a chance to see what really happened. HUNTLEY: Well, Mrs. Charlotte Billups Jernigan, thank you very much. JERNIGAN: I really appreciated this and I praise God for this opportunity. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CBJernigan1995.xml CBJernigan1995.xml
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Charlotte Billups Jernigan
Description
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Charlotte Billups Jernigan discusses being the daughter of Movement leader Rev. Charles Billups. She attended mass meetings, served in the US Army and worked to integrate service church before moving to work in the Chicago Movement.
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19950609J
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Jackson, Jesse, 1941-
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1995-06-09
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video
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https://bcriohp.org/files/original/0662185f4547f22ff9fa8ab4d03e0bd6.jpg
01ef62b9fb93591ea0ba0c09dca3ebe6
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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Cleopatra Goree
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5.4 April 29, 1998 Cleopatra Goree Interviewed on April 29, 1998 19980429G 01:02:24 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Jess Holdnak Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Brown versus Board of Education of Topeka National Association for the Advancement of Colored People Parks, Rosa, 1913-2005 King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) Alabama State College for Negroes Cleopatra Goree Horace Huntley Video 1:|9(9)|36(5)|57(6)|74(1)|88(12)|104(13)|129(9)|151(11)|182(4)|216(14)|231(3)|247(12)|263(3)|289(9)|312(13)|327(6)|341(15)|351(2)|374(6)|388(1)|401(6)|421(11)|442(6)|463(6)|474(3)|488(3)|506(8)|513(4)|546(12)|565(9)|591(5)|606(9)|616(12)|634(10)|645(11)|662(6)|692(14)|706(8)|715(8)|726(12)|742(12)|752(17)|766(10)|775(6)|785(12)|796(7)|809(13)|825(6)|843(5)|854(8)|866(11)|882(12)|910(11)|925(1)|936(10)|956(8)|972(1)|990(2)|1005(8)|1017(11)|1029(14)|1044(4) 0 https://youtu.be/__FgZzIUM78 YouTube video English 0 Introduction H: This is an interview with Mrs. Cleopatra Goree for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute’s Oral History Project. I’m Dr. Horace Huntley. We’re presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is April 29, 1998. Mrs. Goree, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule. I know as a lady of leisure you have plenty of other things to do then come and sit and talk with me. I just want to start by asking you a general question about your family. Your mother and father, were they originally from Birmingham? Introduction to interview with Cleopatra Goree by Dr. Horace Huntley. Goree, Cleopatra Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 48 Early Life and Family H: I just want to start by asking you a general question about your family. Your mother and father, were they originally from Birmingham? G: No, my mother and father were both from South Alabama, the Black Belt area. H: What county? Goree talks about growing up in East Birmingham. She also talks about her parents, mentioning where they were born, their education, and their work. African American families ; African American life ; Birmingham (Ala.) 205 Shields Elementary School H: What school did you start first grade? G: I started first grade at Shields Elementary School but it didn’t go any further than the third grade. Then we had an option of going to Kingston School or Thomas School. I choose to have gone to Thomas School. So, my elementary education would be third grade at Shields and then from fourth grade to eighth grade Thomas. Goree talks about her elementary school. Shields Elementary School African American life ; African American school children ; African Americans--Segregation ; De facto school segregation 378 Thomas School H: When you left Shields and went to Thomas, did you still walk to school? G: Walked to school. Everybody walked to school, either from that area, between 10th Avenue North and Vanderbilt you either walked to Thomas School or you walked to Hudson School in Collegeville. So everybody was walking to school. Goree talks about going to Thomas School from fourth to eight grade. Thomas School (Birmingham, Ala.) African American life ; African American school children ; Birmingham (Ala.) 495 Ullman High School H: Well, after Thomas School then where did you go to school? G: I went to Ullman High School. H: Went to Ullman, ok. Now Ullman is quite a distance. You couldn’t walk to Ullman. Goree talks about attending Ullman High School. She describes walking to school after taking a trolly part of the way and meeting children from other communities on the way. She also mentions avoid a community known as Cracker Town to avoid rock fights with those children. Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) African American high school students ; African Americans--Education (Secondary) ; African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.) 791 Parker High School H: Now Parker of course being the only school in the Birmingham system must have been a huge school. G: It was. H: Did you look forward to going to Parker? Goree talks about her experience at Parker High School from eleventh grade through graduation. She mentions very large class sizes, and participating in both choir and drama club. Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) African American high school students ; African Americans--Education (Secondary) ; African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; De facto school segregation ; Segregation in education ; Segregation in education--United States 1144 Alabama State Scholarship H: Oh, I see. What did you do after Parker? G: After Parker I went to Alabama State. H: Why Alabama State? Goree talks about taking a test and earning a scholarship to attend Alabama State. African Americans--Education (Higher) ; Alabama State College ; Alabama State College for Negroes 1458 College Life H: What was that transition like from high school to college? G: First time away from home. It was very different. Had to adjust to dormitory life. They were very strict at that time too. Lights out, on campus and all of that stuff. I took it in stride because I really wanted to go to college. I didn’t have a hard time adjusting. I was fortunate enough to get a job. Work-scholarship in the high school office because I had worked in high school offices previously. So, they just placed me in a high school office. Goree talks bout life as a college student. She mentions double majoring in History or English and Secondary Education. African Americans--Education (Higher) ; Alabama State College ; Alabama State College for Negroes 1677 Teaching at Ullman H: So after State did you come back home? G: I came back home. Started looking for a job. H: Did you find one immediately? G: No, I had to go to a smaller town where one of my good friends lived. In fact, I just didn’t wait long enough. First come, first serve. I’m a little girl looking for a job in a hurry. So, I taught two years out of town. Goree talks about getting a teaching job at Ullman High School. She also talks about Brown vs. Board of Education of Topeka. Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) African American educators ; Brown versus Board of Education of Topeka ; Fayette (Ala.) ; Segregation in education--United States 1841 Voting and the NAACP H: Were you a voter then, at that time? G: I was a voter. H: Do you remember when you took your voting test? Goree talks about voter tests and the outlawing of the NAACP in Alabama. Birmingham (Ala.) ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 1956 Civic League H: After it was outlawed from operating in the state and the Alabama Christian Movement was organized, were you at all involved with that phase of the movement. I know you would be involved later on but in those initial days? G: No, I was not involved, not a member. As you know the Alabama Christian Movement was almost church based. Goree talks about being involved in a Civic League in East Birmingham. The League was focused on helping African Americans pass voting tests. Civic League Parks, Rosa, 1913-2005 ; Voting--United States 2189 Martin Luther King Jr. H: Is that right? Did Martin Luther King come to your church in those early days? G: No, he never came to my church. H: But you heard him speak? G: New Pilgrim Baptist Church. Goree talka bakut going to hear Martinezes Luther King Jr. speak at Birmingham mass meetings. New Pilgrim Baptist Church ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 2525 Mass Meetings Goree describes how it felt to attend mass meetings were King would speak. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 2806 Demonstrating as a Teacher H: Now, I’ve interviewed many people and found out that many of the teachers or professional people were really not involved because they were afraid of losing their jobs. You were a teacher, why were you involved at the level that you were? G: I’ll tell you after 3:00 my time was my own. I had no fear of the job. The younger people [inaudible]. Some people walked off the job but they had to be younger people. H: Oh, some did walk off the job? Goree talks about demonstrating while still a teacher. She also talks about her students participating in the Movement. Goree theorizes that class was involved with those that did not participate in the Movement . African American educators ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 3186 Bombings in Birmingham H: The night that A. D. King’s home was bombed first and then the A. G. Gaston motel was bombed. Do you remember that? G: Very well, I jumped in the car and came down. Wouldn’t miss it for nothing. H: So, what did you see when you came down? Goree talks about the bombing of A.D. King's home, the A. G. Gaston Hotel, and the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) 3465 Dynamite Hill G: They would come through my community. I’m not far from the Shores’ home. H: Right, you are right on top of Dynamite Hill. G: Yeah. The police would come and tell us to go back in the house. So, I did have them holler at you, Get back in that house. Shoot through the shrubberies on our street. Goree talks about living on Dynamite Hill and seeing when the Shores house was bombed. She remembers viewing the Police Department as dangerous. Dynamite Hill Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Racism--United States ; Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 3554 Conclusion " ; Everybody had a Role" ; H: Right. Now we’ve covered an awful lot of territory. Is there anything else that you would like to include before we conclude? G: Lest we forget that too much credit can not be given to Fred Shuttlesworth because his house was leveled. Goree remembers Rev. Shuttlesworth and talks about what it was like o have a first had experience of the Civil Rights Movement. She states " ; It didn’t make any difference if you marched or not. If you had something to offer. I think that’s where we should be now. It’s not the person who got out there and walked in the street. You played your part." ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Oral History Cleopatra Goree discusses being born and raised in Birmingham before getting involved with the Movement as a teacher. She lived in Dynamite Hill, attended mass meetings and experienced many bombings firsthand. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Cleopatra Goree for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I' ; m Dr. Horace Huntley. We' ; re presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is April 29, 1998. Mrs. Goree, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule. I know as a lady of leisure you have plenty of other things to do then come and sit and talk with me. I just want to start by asking you a general question about your family. Your mother and father, were they originally from Birmingham? GOREE: No, my mother and father were both from South Alabama, the Black Belt area. HUNTLEY: What county? GOREE: My mother was from Perry County. My father was from Bullock County. HUNTLEY: Did they meet here or did they meet there and then come here? GOREE: They met here. HUNTLEY: Ok, so you were born here in Birmingham? GOREE: I was born in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Oh, a Birmingham girl. GOREE: All the way. HUNTLEY: All the way, ok. What community did you grow up in? GOREE: I grew up in East Birmingham. HUNTLEY: East Birmingham, ok. Your parents what were their education levels? How much schooling? GOREE: Unfortunately, I didn' ; t live with my father that long, but his education was very limited for the time that I did know him. He worked for the L & ; N Railroad Company. My mother had perhaps, maybe a fourth-grade education. HUNTLEY: In East Birmingham, what community was it in East Birmingham that you grew up? GOREE: Well, East Birmingham included kind of the Northeast, not quite Northeast but going Northeast in the city limits. It' ; s an industrial area between 1st Avenue North and Vanderbilt Road. HUNTLEY: Oh, ok. GOREE: We were a Black community stuck within an industrial area. [inaudible], pipe shops, Stockham Valve Fitting Company, and so on. HUNTLEY: Oh, yeah, I know that. GOREE: Then you had a Black community. HUNTLEY: So, your father worked for the railroad. Did your mother work outside the home? GOREE: My mother worked for White people ; you call it domestic work. HUNTLEY: In that area? Did she work in that area? GOREE: No, you go into Inglenook then, you' ; re going up towards Tarrant City. HUNTLEY: Right. GOREE: Inglenook and Tarrant City, going in that direction and the Whites that lived in that area were probably employed at the L & ; N Railroad. HUNTLEY: What school did you start first grade? GOREE: I started first grade at Shields Elementary School but it didn' ; t go any further than the third grade. Then we had an option of going to Kingston School or Thomas School. I choose to have gone to Thomas School. So, my elementary education would be third grade at Shields and then from fourth grade to eighth grade Thomas. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Shields? GOREE: Typical classrooms that you read about now. Two rooms, pot belly stove, sink in the back, two teachers on each side of the double tented house, so to speak. HUNTLEY: How far did you live from Shields? In walking distance? GOREE: Walking distance. HUNTLEY: How would you describe your neighborhood at that time? GOREE: The neighborhood would be described as one big family. Typical of all of the neighborhoods before. You kind of look at during the Depression Era. Everything is by, transportation is by trolley, very few cars. One telephone service, maybe two at the most serving a five or six block area. Everybody went to that particular home to use the telephone. HUNTLEY: Right. GOREE: Church, school and home were all located within walking distance of the street. HUNTLEY: So, it was a pretty compact community, then? GOREE: Compact, very compact. HUNTLEY: What about the occupations of the people that lived in the community? What was the range of occupations? GOREE: Most of the range of the occupations were, ranges were industrial work. HUNTLEY: Caused you lived right there in the industrial area, so most people would be working class people. GOREE: Industrial, plant workers for the men. The ladies didn' ; t go into the plants until WWII. HUNTLEY: Right. GOREE: Few professional people in between. HUNTLEY: When you left Shields and went to Thomas, did you still walk to school? GOREE: Walked to school. Everybody walked to school, either from that area, between 10th Avenue North and Vanderbilt you either walked to Thomas School or you walked to Hudson School in Collegeville. So, everybody was walking to school. HUNTLEY: How was Thomas different from Shields? GOREE: Well, Shields being so small, remember it' ; s just first thru third grade so it' ; s no comparison. HUNTLEY: Right. GOREE: We were going to the big school then. HUNTLEY: What was the transition like going from a smaller school to the big school, as you say? GOREE: It was quite an experience. First of all, you got a long walk and then you are walking down a railroad track. All my fear was a trestle that you had to cross. HUNTLEY: You had to cross a trestle every day? GOREE: You had to cross the trestle to get across and I was always frightened. HUNTLEY: Now, on that trestle could you actually see the water? GOREE: You could see the water. HUNTLEY: I remember those, yeah. GOREE: You' ; ve got to be there at a certain time regardless of the weather. Then when you got to Thomas School you had to stand in line until the bell rang. Everybody lined up to go in school when the bell rang. So, you don' ; t have anyone entering the school until you are going into class. Then you line up. Regardless of the weather, that' ; s the interesting thing. You look back now, a cold rain... HUNTLEY: It didn' ; t matter, you had to line up. GOREE: You lined up then you would go into the school. HUNTLEY: I remember when I was in school we would line up and when the bell rang is when you would go into the school and not before. Well, after Thomas School then where did you go to school? GOREE: I went to Ullman High School. HUNTLEY: Went to Ullman, ok. Now Ullman is quite a distance. You couldn' ; t walk to Ullman. GOREE: Couldn' ; t walk to Ullman. They had a special that ran from maybe Tarrant City to near Parker High School. We called it the special. All kids going to Ullman got off downtown so you would walk from downtown to Southside. HUNTLEY: That' ; s still a pretty good distance now. Did you walk, what from 14th Street? GOREE: We walked from downtown to where Ullman is located today. HUNTLEY: Where abouts downtown? GOREE: 19th Street. HUNTLEY: 19th Street? GOREE: 19th Street. HUNTLEY: That' ; s the heart of downtown. GOREE: Heart of downtown. HUNTLEY: And you walked that every day? I thought the special would take you... GOREE: No. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about that special. I' ; ve heard so many people talk about it. What was the special like? GOREE: It was, by time I came along it was just a straight streetcar especially for the children. HUNTLEY: Only school children... GOREE: Only school children rode it. HUNTLEY: This was an actual streetcar? GOREE: An actual streetcar. HUNTLEY: Before the buses? GOREE: Before the buses, that' ; s right. Actually, a trolley car. HUNTLEY: Ok. GOREE: I understand earlier before I was born that they had a trailer that they would hook up to another trolley, I believe, I' ; m not sure. My aunts talked about it. Ours was actually a trolley especially for the children. HUNTLEY: So, you got to sit in front of the trolley or anywhere? GOREE: You sat where you could or stood up the rest of the way. (Laughing) You' ; re packed in there like sardines. HUNTLEY: Yeah, yeah. Now, what was that transition like from Thomas School to Ullman? GOREE: It wasn' ; t too hard. We were used to the walk. Only thing you looked forward to you met a cross section of children. You started meeting more from... HUNTLEY: From different communities? GOREE: Yeah. Especially in my area, you' ; re looking at you' ; re going toward what we call Hudson City, Collegeville. You' ; re picking up those kids from Kingston. And sometime Kingston children would ride the special coming out 1st Avenue coming from the Avondale community. You' ; re coming from towards Tarrant City direction back down to East Birmingham, then you got a lot of ghettos you pick up in between, once you left the industrial area going down toward the terminal station in that area, you had massive Black communities there. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. Birmingham at that time of course was strictly segregated. GOREE: Sure. HUNTLEY: Did you ever encounter any difficulties that you remember as a child growing up in Birmingham, a Black child growing up in Birmingham? Many cases we may have encountered something on the streetcars or downtown. Do you ever remember personally encountering any situations? GOREE: No, I only encountered, of course I didn' ; t encounter it because I wouldn' ; t go in that direction. But going to Thomas School, if you didn' ; t go down the tracks you could walk around in another direction going toward Grayson Lumber Company, a paved street that lead to 1st Avenue North. But if you went in that direction you had to go through what we call Cracker Town. That was company houses occupied by White workers, the people that worked at the cotton mills there. They lived in these small houses and the company furnished them homes. So, they were White cotton mill workers. We had to go through their community if you didn' ; t take the track and went around the other way. So, it was always a rock battle between the children who went through Cracker Town and going back to East Birmingham. Most of us took the railroad. HUNTLEY: So, you would attempt to avoid? GOREE: We avoided what we called Cracker Town. HUNTLEY: Now, in the mills there was only Whites working those mills, right? GOREE: Some Blacks worked in the mills, but they would not furnish the homes. HUNTLEY: Right. Now, you went to Ullman through what grade? GOREE: Ullman, ninth thru tenth. HUNTLEY: Then on to... GOREE: To Parker. HUNTLEY: Now Parker of course being the only school in the Birmingham system must have been a huge school. GOREE: It was. HUNTLEY: Did you look forward to going to Parker? GOREE: I guess that was the dream of all of the children. Now if you lived in the Titusville area, you stayed at Ullman till the eleventh grade if you wanted to. HUNTLEY: Ok, so Ullman did go to the eleventh grade? GOREE: To the eleventh grade but those of us that didn' ; t live on the Southside, we could choose to leave and go to Parker after we finished the tenth grade. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. GOREE: Of course, you had the annex as a feeder also. You had two feeders going to Parker at the time. Ullman was a feeder of that school and Parker annex was a feeder school. HUNTLEY: Why did you go to Ullman rather than go to the annex? GOREE: I was zoned to Ullman. Thomas School children were zoned to Ullman. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. GOREE: So, that' ; s why I went to Ullman. HUNTLEY: How would you describe Parker at the time that you were there? GOREE: Fascinating. HUNTLEY: In what ways? GOREE: First of all, I guess if you look at it there was a certain amount of pride that was instilled in all students there. The pride now that, I guess exists in most Black high schools during that time. We are talking about the 1940s. HUNTLEY: How did they instill that pride into you? GOREE: Just by word of mouth but certain things were expected. Teachers were role models, in a term they use today, they were always well-dressed, very articulate. They were very conscience of being teachers, they saw it as a profession. It kind of makes you look up to them. The next thing, I' ; m always appalled by the number of students that were in the classroom, each classroom. There would be as many as 40 children in the class. HUNTLEY: Is that right? 40 in each class? GOREE: We were all required to learn. HUNTLEY: And all did learn. GOREE: Yes, this was not the problem as it is today. It always amazes me that the thousands of children they had at Parker at that time cause you had [inaudible] to every Black community then eleventh thru twelfth grade by then. We' ; re supposed to have been the largest Black school in the United States, all that. But the school sat right there on the sidewalk and there never was a kid in front of the school. You never saw one student in front of... HUNTLEY: No one hung out on the... GOREE: No one hung out on the front of the building. Everybody was on the inside. The only way you saw someone on the front of that building they were leaving the school going home. HUNTLEY: Were you involved in any extracurricular activities? GOREE: Yes, I was, I enjoyed my high school career at Parker. I sang in the choir. I had to get to college before I realized that I really couldn' ; t sing but I sang in the choir. I always regret that I missed William Henry he was in the service, Mary Allen Stollenwerck was in charge of the choir at the time. She was an excellent musician. She tried to make a second soprano out of me. I took typing and I guess the highlight of my stay at Parker was when I was chosen to be in the dramatic club [inaudible]. That was just like a dream come true to have been chosen to be a part of the dramatic club. So, I had a little choir, had dramatic experience and I had typing. Of course, my typing and choir were not extracurricular it was counted as a course. HUNTLEY: Right. GOREE: I took choir and typing rather than going to the required domestic work, you know. You had to go to laundry, and I didn' ; t like that idea, so I tried to find a way out. HUNTLEY: You had no brothers and sisters, right? GOREE: I' ; m an only child, no brothers or sisters. HUNTLEY: So, you are more or less paving your own way? GOREE: That' ; s true. HUNTLEY: Many times, I' ; ve talked with people who had brothers and sisters that have gone ahead. GOREE: I was the only one. I was always around a lot of children who were from large families, but I was the only one. No half-brothers, no half-sisters, no half nothing. Amazingly my husband was an only child too. HUNTLEY: Was he at Parker? GOREE: No, he was originally from Tuscaloosa. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. What did you do after Parker? GOREE: After Parker I went to Alabama State. HUNTLEY: Why Alabama State? GOREE: Oh, that' ; s the story of my life. (Laughing) I had all dreams. I had only a mother working, remember that. This is war years. Just at the end of the war because I' ; m talking about ' ; 45. War World II was over in June of ' ; 45. So, I' ; m looking real hard to try to get in somebody' ; s college. I had written Tuskegee, they had a five year plan where you worked and went to Tuskegee on a five year plan. I said, I was going to be a dietician, that sounded like a good word, you know. That was the first year Alabama State offered us statewide scholarship testing to find out who was the best scholar in the state of Alabama. So, President [inaudible] launched a testing program to test every senior in high school in Alabama. All of the students who took the test if they scored high they had scholarships and they could go to Alabama State. HUNTLEY: Full scholarships? GOREE: Full scholarships, part scholarships, depending on your rank. HUNTLEY: Right. GOREE: So, when they came to Parker, they chose the seniors in the top ten bracket in the graduating class. So, I was chosen, and I only remember my math teacher tried to keep me out, he said I wasn' ; t smart enough and my grades weren' ; t good enough in geometry and so I shouldn' ; t be qualified to take the test. HUNTLEY: Oh, is that right? So, he tried to keep you from taking the test? GOREE: Yes. He was head of the testing. [inaudible], I' ; m saying this because most people in Birmingham know the teacher [inaudible]. [inaudible] insisted on my being there. HUNTLEY: Oh, ok. GOREE: So, did my History teacher and my English teacher. I got a chance to take the statewide test and I scored high enough to get a scholarship to Alabama State. All of my dreams to Tuskegee went to the wind then because I had a scholarship. HUNTLEY: And you were probably very excited about that. GOREE: I was. HUNTLEY: How many from your high school went to Alabama State at that time on a scholarship? GOREE: On that scholarship program, I can' ; t remember off hand. HUNTLEY: But there were several... GOREE: The smaller children in that upper ten. Many of them didn' ; t choose Alabama State because most of them were from professional families. They went on to Tuskegee, Talladega, Morehouse, private colleges. I can' ; t remember off hand who... HUNTLEY: How many went in that time range? GOREE: I can' ; t think of anybody, maybe one girl, I can think of and myself in that testing program. HUNTLEY: That test then was not necessarily administered by Alabama State? GOREE: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: It was by Alabama State? GOREE: Yes, by Alabama State people. They came up on certain Saturdays. And out of that class came the smartest student in the state of Alabama. HUNTLEY: Out of Parker? GOREE: Out of my class, yes. HUNTLEY: Do you remember that person' ; s name? GOREE: Yes, that person passed this year, last year. Noel Wills, Jr. You might' ; ve heard the name. HUNTLEY: Noel Wills, Jr.? GOREE: Yes, he became a medical doctor. His father was principal here in the city. He made the high score throughout the state of Alabama. It became a competitive thing. Later on, we always accused Rosedale, Rosedale High School, Mr. E. J. Oliver, had the highest number of students scoring on the test after that. HUNTLEY: Rosedale or Fairfield? GOREE: Fairfield, I' ; m sorry, yeah, Fairfield. Fairfield started walking away. Fairfield had it and won. So, we started saying E. J. Oliver had the test. (Laughing). It was amazing. HUNTLEY: What was that transition like from high school to college? GOREE: First time away from home. It was very different. Had to adjust to dormitory life. They were very strict at that time too. Lights out, on campus and all of that stuff. I took it in stride because I really wanted to go to college. I didn' ; t have a hard time adjusting. I was fortunate enough to get a job. Work-scholarship in the high school office because I had worked in high school offices previously. So, they just placed me in a high school office. HUNTLEY: What was your major? GOREE: I came out with a double major, I guess. I need to look at my transcript sometime. I don' ; t know if I have more hours in History or English, but I was a History/English Major, Secondary Education. HUNTLEY: Did you enjoy that time at Alabama State? GOREE: It was a learning experience and I came out very excited, very confident. I felt like we had one of the best curriculums that any college could have offered. I' ; ve always admired my president. [inaudible] was a brilliant man. He worked night hours, 12:00, 1:00 you could see [inaudible] office lights burning. But he was a lover of academics. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. GOREE: I' ; ve always felt so grateful to him especially for the course that was a requirement to freshmen. We took what was a called a [inaudible] Socials Class and an Integrated Arts Class, required of all freshmen. We had 21 hours in one and 18 hours in the other. It was kind of like a survey of all of the sciences and survey of all of the arts. And of course... HUNTLEY: And all of that was required? GOREE: That was required, and it most certainly exposed you at an early age to various facets of education. HUNTLEY: Right. GOREE: Even today I fall back on some of the knowledge I acquired from those classes. So, I came out of Alabama State a little bit cocky. HUNTLEY: It was known for it' ; s music as well. GOREE: A lot of teachers. It was a teacher college. I didn' ; t pursue the music, I told you I found out that I couldn' ; t sing. I didn' ; t go to Dr. Hall. HUNTLEY: So, after State did you come back home? GOREE: I came back home. Started looking for a job. HUNTLEY: Did you find one immediately? GOREE: No, I had to go to a smaller town where one of my good friends lived. In fact, I just didn' ; t wait long enough. First come, first serve. I' ; m a little girl looking for a job in a hurry. So, I taught two years out of town. HUNTLEY: Where? GOREE: Fayette, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Fayette, ok. This was just before the Brown versus Board of Education decision? GOREE: Yes. HUNTLEY: And when you came back here where did you teach first? GOREE: Ullman High School. HUNTLEY: Oh, you taught at Ullman? GOREE: Yes. HUNTLEY: What was that like? That' ; s your alma mater, now you' ; re going back. GOREE: It was like heaven. I knew Dr. Bell so well. See, I had worked in his office as a student. HUNTLEY: Right. GOREE: Then when I went to college I had classes under him. He was a marvelous teacher. He taught me geography and I learned so much. Not only geographically but he was very philosophical. So, many things I learned. HUNTLEY: So, he taught at Alabama State? GOREE: He taught at Alabama State, summer classes. HUNTLEY: So, you returned here to teach at Ullman, was that, had that been a dream of yours to come back and be able to... GOREE: I was just so glad, I was happy. I really was. Especially to be at Ullman with Dr. Bell because he had been my principal and I just felt like I knew him, you know as a high school student. HUNTLEY: So, were you there at Ullman then in ' ; 54 when Brown versus Board took place? GOREE: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: What was, did that have any impact upon what was taking place at Ullman? Were there any discussions about what that meant to Black education in Birmingham? GOREE: It really didn' ; t hit home to hard. We talked about it and we read about it. Maybe they had news articles on it, but it didn' ; t have any definite impact. HUNTLEY: Right. GOREE: We didn' ; t really see the fore coming. Yet I think once Parker [inaudible] went to Alabama that brought it closer. HUNTLEY: Right. GOREE: It became rather a fascinating subject then. HUNTLEY: Were you a voter then, at that time? GOREE: I was a voter. HUNTLEY: Do you remember when you took your voting test? GOREE: Yes, I do. HUNTLEY: What was that like? GOREE: I didn' ; t go through all of the silly questions that some of the people were asked. It was strictly Constitutional questions. Of course, the most interesting thing about it is Dr. Patton always managed to get the exam. And he had it Xeroxed and you just studied and studied. After I became a registered voter I conducted voter registration classes where we taught other people how to vote. HUNTLEY: Were you a member of the NAACP? GOREE: I was a member to the NAACP, I sure was. HUNTLEY: In ' ; 56 when the organization was outlawed from operating in this state. GOREE: I was not as active, but I was a card-carrying member. HUNTLEY: Right. I' ; m sure there were many teachers that were card carrying members. My aunt was a card-carrying member but she didn' ; t attend any of the meetings, but she paid her dues every year and was supportive that way. It was rather dangerous to be a member of the NAACP in terms of I guess the powers that be knowing that. Was that true or not? GOREE: No, no fear or threat even at Alabama State. I was surrounded by persons who were active members of the NAACP. HUNTLEY: After it was outlawed from operating in the state and the Alabama Christian Movement was organized, were you at all involved with that phase of the movement. I know you would be involved later on but in those initial days?GOREE: No, I was not involved, not a member. As you know the Alabama Christian Movement was almost church based. HUNTLEY: Right. GOREE: Throughout the ministers and my minister was not a part of it. So, being a [inaudible], lead more or less by his church philosophy I didn' ; t join or become a part of it. HUNTLEY: Were you still living in the same neighborhood? GOREE: Living in East Birmingham. The impact was so great from the Alabama Christian Movement people started setting up smaller groups. Now in East Birmingham under Dr. Patton and some more ministers that' ; s where we started this voting clinic. We called it a Civic League. HUNTLEY: Right. GOREE: We became very civic minded. Because of the impact of the Christian Movement. Since we were not in that big circle or that mainstream we had our own little Civic League. HUNTLEY: How did the Civic Leagues operate? GOREE: It operated primarily for improving the community if necessary. We were basically interested in getting people to vote. We held voting clinics every Wednesday night throughout the neighborhood. We found those people and that was an experience because I was never aware, maybe I should say, I had no awareness of how many people that I had grown up under that could not read and write. These were the people that were pretty much neighborhood role models, homeowners, nice dressers and money paying people in the church. HUNTLEY: But they could not read and write? GOREE: But they couldn' ; t read and write and I was astounded. Because I was not aware of their limitations. They would come and then also those who were interested the older people we would sit down and go over it just like we would with a child. We got them ready for all of the tricky questions. That question about how old is your oldest child and you would answer and especially for the men or the ladies. Then they would ask you when did you marry. You would tell them when you married. If that child was born out of wedlock they would not qualify you. HUNTLEY: That would actually disqualify you? GOREE: That would disqualify you. So, we had to keep pounding that in their heads about those persons. The highlight of that Civic League in East Birmingham was Rosa Parks spoke and I introduced her. HUNTLEY: Oh, is that right? GOREE: Yes, we had a church field and we were all outside and she was the lady of the hour. HUNTLEY: What church? GOREE: That St. Luke' ; s [inaudible] church in East Birmingham. That' ; s where we had our anniversary program and we invited Rosa Parks as a guest speaker, and she came. HUNTLEY: Is that right? Did Martin Luther King come to your church in those early days? GOREE: No, he never came to my church. HUNTLEY: But you heard him speak? GOREE: New Pilgrim Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: At New Pilgrim? GOREE: I think it might be in that introduction I gave Lola. HUNTLEY: It says in ' ; 55. GOREE: I heard him speak the first time he came to Birmingham. That was ' ; 55 right after the bus boycott. At Sixteenth Baptist Church. The rest of the time I heard him at the mass meetings and that' ; s wherever he was. Two times he spoke [inaudible] New Pilgrim Baptist Church. That was a special occasion I heard him there. Many times, at the mass meetings because I went to all of the mass meetings. The last time he spoke was at the city auditorium and that was when he was, had declared war on, not war, but spoke out against the Vietnam War. HUNTLEY: That was in ' ; 66 or ' ; 67. GOREE: The last speech. He made it in Birmingham. He was [inaudible] to tell the federal government that they were wrong. HUNTLEY: Sounds as if every time King was in town you were there. GOREE: Never missed the opportunity, never missed it. HUNTLEY: What kind of feeling did you have as you listened to Martin Luther King? GOREE: I was drawn to him, I guess, psychologically drawn to him because of his charisma then the depths of his speeches. I was always fascinated by him and still am whenever I hear him or read his work. You cannot argue with him. You find it very hard to debate with him. You' ; ve got to be a real philosopher to debate with Dr. King. I' ; m always fascinated with that. He' ; s one person that I just can' ; t, with my limited knowledge I cannot [inaudible]. It' ; s very difficult to disagree with him. The next thing he was a very warm person. I found that out twice I had encountered to just really touch him so to speak. We were at the Smith & ; Gaston' ; s Lounge, that' ; s when all of the children were in jail. He came in and all of us went down there. I would always leave Ullman High School headed for a movement meeting. I would never go home. HUNTLEY: Was that every day? GOREE: Every day, when there was a mass meeting I was going. So, we were down in the lounge having, not alcohol but cokes, coffee, sandwiches. The lounge was just like this with people. All of a sudden he came through and I' ; ve never seen people just run up and pull on a person. Dr. King, my daughter, Dr. King, my son and he was just as nice, just as warm. He didn' ; t pull away. He didn' ; t seem [inaudible]. He would say, " ; Yes, ma' ; am, I understand we' ; re working on that." ; No frustration. Then a friend of mine knew him personally so she said, " ; Goree, come on let' ; s make the pictures." ; I said, " ; No, give me the video." ; So, I videoed the girls with him. We weren' ; t girls but the young ladies with him. I videoed them while they were standing up there with Dr. King. HUNTLEY: You mean you took motion pictures? GOREE: Yes. HUNTLEY: Do you have any of those? GOREE: I guess Doris still has them. [inaudible]. She said, " ; Come on." ; And I was just too excited. Then that last night when he was at the auditorium that was the last time I saw him. She went up to...I was always with two or three certain people. She went up to the counter to speak to him. He said, " ; Hey girl, where' ; s your pastor at?" ; She said, " ; I don' ; t know I thought he was here." ; About that time, she was shorter than I was, and I just reached in there and shook his hand, you know. (Laughing) I tease her about it, I said, " ; Girl, I almost knocked you in that car trying to shake Dr. King' ; s hand." ; So, I shook his hand. Then when he was at 6th Avenue one night he was autographing his books and I bought a book and he autographed it. So, I never missed an opportunity wherever Dr. King was. I regret that...I have two regrets ; I didn' ; t go to Selma and I didn' ; t go to the march in Washington. Two regrets I have now, I wish I was a part of it. HUNTLEY: Right. You attended the mass meetings on a regular basis? GOREE: Regular basis. HUNTLEY: How would you describe a mass meeting? GOREE: I think it' ; s one of those phases in history that you read about, but you can' ; t believe it until you encounter it. First of all, all fears are gone. I' ; ve never felt that death...if we had died in a church I don' ; t think I would have cared. If a bomb had gone off, we were just that happy, we were just that elated. So, it' ; s not often you get that kind of a feeling. Where you step on a policeman' ; s foot if it' ; s in the way. Or you know the church is being guarded or you know people are out there. We just don' ; t care. I think the removal of fear is something that I had not experienced, and I don' ; t know if I will ever have that kind of emotional feeling again. Another thing that amazes me about the movement now, you know in retrospectively, is that there was something there for everybody. You would go in and the first thing in the afternoon and if you hadn' ; t eaten in the basement of the church or the annex or wherever it was. You had fish fry, you had hot dogs, hamburgers and so on that' ; s the atmosphere right there. Then after that you go upstairs for the meeting and you had an old fashion pray meeting. So, for all of us that love old-fashioned prayer meetings where folks actually say your prayers, you know. So that satisfied that element. After that you had the Alabama Christian Movement Choir taking the stand. So, if you' ; re a person who likes gospel, we had gospel at its best. HUNTLEY: That' ; s the place to be? GOREE: That' ; s the place to be. Collection time, you got Gardner, Rev. Gardner, who was a comedian by nature. So, when he got ready to take up a collection it was almost like you had Eddie Murphy up there. He would just keep you laughing, always some kind of joke. He would take up collection and it was...especially jokes on the White folks. So, he just tickled me. After that nothing is never the same. Each personality, Ralph Abernathy would take the podium, tell this little hickey all those teasickers, talking about the people who got along with White people, he would call them teasickers. He would come along and tell them I bath in White ivory soap and I don' ; t stink and all that. Well, you know that kind of down home [inaudible] talk really got the people involved. HUNTLEY: Right. GOREE: Finally, when Dr. King came out you' ; re already happy and that' ; s like putting the icing on the cake. He comes in with all the intellectual and all the...You know, not only the intellectual but the charisma he had and the power to speak. HUNTLEY: By that time, you could put it all together? GOREE: Yeah, you could pull it all together. [inaudible]. You just had such a variety and you leave out singing, " ; We Shall Overcome." ; It was an [inaudible]. Maybe I should say, a spiritual explosion or a spiritual high. That kept people coming, as many as three churches would fill with people, especially when the kids were in jail. HUNTLEY: Now, I' ; ve interviewed many people and found out that many of the teachers or professional people were really not involved because they were afraid of losing their jobs. You were a teacher, why were you involved at the level that you were? GOREE: I' ; ll tell you after 3:00 my time was my own. I had no fear of the job. The younger people [inaudible]. Some people walked off the job, but they had to be younger people. HUNTLEY: Oh, some did walk off the job? GOREE: Some, especially in Montgomery, you had that type of people to walk off. Then you had a few teachers that went to jail. At least I know one, ... [end of side one] HUNTLEY: Were you involved in any demonstrations? GOREE: One, that was that Easter Sunday when they marched out of St. Carl' ; s, I marched. HUNTLEY: What was that like? I mean that was a big demonstration. GOREE: That was a big demonstration. Well, there were so many people that you just felt hypocritical if you just didn' ; t get out there and walk with them. HUNTLEY: Were you arrested? GOREE: No, I wasn' ; t arrested, sure wasn' ; t. HUNTLEY: What did it feel like being, you know after the speeches and all and then you hit the pavement. What was that experience like? GOREE: I think it showed you the power of the movement. You just didn' ; t care. You were just ready for whatever. I can see why the young people went, really. It was motivational. HUNTLEY: Many of the students would leave school or they wouldn' ; t come to school, they would come right down to this part of downtown and demonstrate. You as a teacher, did you attempt to discourage them from being involved? Or did you encourage them to get involved? Or were you neutral in that aspect? GOREE: Neutral, but always wanting to know what happened. Never blocked anybody at my door. I had a lot of respect for George Bell at the time. I never stood in anybody' ; s way. I didn' ; t want them to tell him that Ms. Goree told me to go. So, I was neutral. I didn' ; t say don' ; t go but I never held my hand across the door. I never threatened anybody with a grade. HUNTLEY: Did any of your students ever leave from your class? GOREE: Emptied the classroom and came back telling me the news. We hugged. HUNTLEY: So, in effect you were...you really aided and abetted? GOREE: Yeah, I was their confidant lady. We would talk about it, close the door, no class today. We would talk about last night. Never stood up and blocked the door or at no point did I say go because I didn' ; t want it to get to the principal that I encouraged them to leave. They needed no encouragement because they just walked out. HUNTLEY: As a result of your involvement, your participation in the mass meetings. Were there ever any threats toward you as far as your job was concerned? GOREE: No threats at all. HUNTLEY: Then did many people, many people that were teachers, simply assume that there would have been some retaliation if they had gotten involved. Were there actual retaliations toward some of the teachers? GOREE: I think retaliation is a word they used. I think they left it to those people. You know how we separate ourselves. HUNTLEY: I see. GOREE: I can' ; t believe they feared their jobs to that extent. Then again, I [inaudible] especially when I' ; m playing bridge or when I' ; m in a sorority meeting. Or if I' ; m at Ullman the next day talking about it. It' ; s almost a turn up your nose attitude, y' ; all go ahead on. HUNTLEY: Oh, is that right? GOREE: Yeah. HUNTLEY: So, people were making determinations based upon... GOREE: You people, yeah. That belongs to the other people, that' ; s not for us. HUNTLEY: So, was it a class thing? GOREE: Kind of a class thing. Even their children, for their children, it was a class thing. HUNTLEY: That' ; s interesting. GOREE: I think that worry when people were telling you that they were frightened about their job. I think that really was class. I always felt it was sort of a class thing. HUNTLEY: That' ; s very interesting. I' ; ve heard that before. GOREE: You hide behind the word retaliation but no. HUNTLEY: It was a decision that you made? GOREE: A decision you made. They just didn' ; t see the effort ; I mean they didn' ; t see the purpose. HUNTLEY: The night that A. D. King' ; s home was bombed first and then the A. G. Gaston motel was bombed. Do you remember that? GOREE: Very well, I jumped in the car and came down. Wouldn' ; t miss it for nothing. HUNTLEY: So, what did you see when you came down? GOREE: Well, first of all it was mass confusion, especially for the Blacks. [inaudible] fire started. When we got in the motel it was just jammed pack and James Labor was up on the table trying to quite people down. He was a security guard and he could wear a uniform. So, he kind of represented a police vision for us. Not a policeman but just a security guard. He had on his security uniform and he was trying to quite the people down. Especially the light skin people. We laughed about that. Some light skin people came through and they had to holler out, I' ; m a Negro, I' ; m a Negro. They thought everybody looked White. There were policemen everywhere. The tank was rolling. Bull Conner' ; s tank was rolling. It was just chaos, it really was. HUNTLEY: Was your husband involved? GOREE: My husband never was involved. He always left it up to me. (Laughing) He said, there was no need for both of us to be crazy. HUNTLEY: Why did you not attend the march on Washington? GOREE: I really didn' ; t have. I don' ; t think I had, my associates, the girls that I would be with, they didn' ; t particularly want to go. I don' ; t know if I had an idea of transportation, rather to fly or try to catch a bus. I didn' ; t get in with who was leaving Birmingham to go. I got lost in that part of the movement. That' ; s why I didn' ; t go. HUNTLEY: Well, just a month after that, in fact less than a month after that the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church was bombed. Where were you that Sunday morning? GOREE: I was at my church in East Birmingham. Of course, you know I lived next door to one of the girls that was killed. HUNTLEY: I didn' ; t know that. Which girl? GOREE: Cynthia Wesley was my next door neighbor. HUNTLEY: When did you find out she had been killed? GOREE: Well, my husband came and got me when he heard the news. He came to church and told me to come home, Cynthia had been killed. HUNTLEY: This is while you were actually in church? GOREE: Yeah, he came. We had just left out of Sunday School and getting ready for our 11:00 services. HUNTLEY: How did that impact your community? GOREE: Well, everybody was saddened by it and shocked. If you would notice even in the community where you live today, you don' ; t have that community cohesiveness that you had growing up. How many people on your street that you really know personally that...HUNTLEY: It' ; s a difference. GOREE: It' ; s a difference. Everybody knew Cynthia. It brought the neighbors together. They came in and out of the Wesley' ; s home. Then they had their friends. It was just a busy time. I would go in and out and offer my assistance in anything I could do. HUNTLEY: Did you attend the funeral? GOREE: I attended the funeral. Sure did. It was at 6th Avenue South, Rev. Porter was the pastor there. So, I attended their funeral. Of course, you know, Dr. King spoke, so, I remember I was standing in the window, sure was. We experienced quite a bit living there on the hill because every time the Shores' ; home was bombed. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right, yes. GOREE: They would come through my community. I' ; m not far from the Shores' ; home. HUNTLEY: Right, you are right on top of Dynamite Hill. GOREE: Yeah. The police would come and tell us to go back in the house. So, I did have them holler at you, Get back in that house. Shoot through the shrubberies on our street. HUNTLEY: Oh, is that right? GOREE: They would shoot through the hedges and stuff like that. Then they would order us back in the house. Weren' ; t even down there at Shores' ; house just standing on our porch. HUNTLEY: How many of them? Were there many policemen or just a car? GOREE: Just, maybe about two cars. HUNTLEY: So, you didn' ; t look at the Birmingham Police Department as being there in the community to protect and serve you? GOREE: No protection, no not at all. I never felt that they were there to protect, sure didn' ; t. HUNTLEY: Right. Now we' ; ve covered an awful lot of territory. Is there anything else that you would like to include before we conclude? GOREE: Lest we forget that too much credit cannot be given to Fred Shuttlesworth because his house was leveled. I did go to see that bombing. He paved the way before Dr. King got here. I was with those kids that integrated riding that bus before Dr. King came. I knew all about those who dared to sit. I knew the kids by name. They worked with Fred and Rev. [inaudible] on southside. So, maybe I should describe myself in one [inaudible]. I have no regrets and it' ; s an experience that I wouldn' ; t take anything for. It' ; s different than secondary. Secondary experience and primary experience. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. GOREE: That first-hand experience in being there is something that you really can' ; t explain. I just hope somehow people who were involved in Birmingham, especially should have written a book because they were right in the middle of it. It was a price to pay. But the price that was paid I know why it was paid because there was no fear. It was such a conviction that people were just willing to die for it. You look at it now and you feel sorry, but it was such a strong conviction. Only thing I would like to close with is where do we stand now. HUNTLEY: Where do we stand now? GOREE: You think we made progress and you can turn it off now, you and I are just talking now. Rather we really appreciate it. I don' ; t think...there was one thing about Dr. King, he didn' ; t advocate divisions. It didn' ; t make any difference if you marched or not. If you had something to offer. I think that' ; s where we should be now. It' ; s not the person who got out there and walked in the street. You played your part. HUNTLEY: Everybody had a role. GOREE: Right, everybody had a role to play. Only thing I' ; m saying is the persons who are now serving should have the same type of commitment to do a good job. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. I want to thank you for taking your time. GOREE: Oh, ok. HUNTLEY: You' ; ve been very helpful. GOREE: Just bubbling over what I think about it. HUNTLEY: I can tell. Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CGoree1998.xml CGoree1998.xml
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Cleopatra Goree
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Cleopatra Goree discusses being born and raised in Birmingham before getting involved with the Movement as a teacher. She lived in Dynamite Hill, attended mass meetings and experienced many bombings firsthand.
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19980429G
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Brown versus Board of Education of Topeka
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People
Parks, Rosa, 1913-2005
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
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1998-04-29
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video
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ca0bf065516a489ae6ffc37a3f6d80b4
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
Interviewee
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Colonel Stone Johnson
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CSJohnson1995.xml
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Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department
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5.4 January 6, 1995 Colonel Stone Johnson Interviewed on January 6, 1995 19950106J 1:26:32 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Emily Reynolds Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) Police brutality--United States Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Colonel Stone Johnson Horace Huntley Video 1:|2(3)|27(9)|52(8)|59(10)|70(6)|88(8)|102(8)|110(5)|130(2)|139(15)|153(4)|177(6)|190(10)|203(11)|219(3)|228(7)|242(11)|255(15)|276(9)|293(10)|308(15)|316(10)|329(6)|340(4)|351(9)|363(12)|370(14)|384(1)|391(6)|398(1)|408(11)|416(10)|432(16)|441(12)|452(6)|462(8)|474(14)|484(1)|492(13)|503(13)|512(4)|521(14)|530(4)|541(11)|551(6)|559(2)|575(13)|585(13)|599(2)|606(3)|616(5)|633(14)|641(12)|649(12)|659(5)|670(14)|685(11)|695(10)|705(8)|714(6)|723(3)|731(13)|744(3)|754(12)|767(4)|779(15)|790(10)|798(15)|807(7)|817(8)|836(2)|846(10)|859(8)|869(13)|879(4)|889(7)|911(4)|922(5)|937(7)|951(9)|964(6)|973(4)|984(9)|994(14) 0 https://youtu.be/oNb_FLKJdoA YouTube video English 0 Interview Introduction This is an interview with Colonel Stone Johnson for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project done by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College, January 6, 1995. Interview Introduction with Colonel Stone Johnson. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ The homepage of the BCRI 92 Family & ; Childhood Let me just start by asking you, what part of the state were your parents from? Johnson discusses his parents and childhood. African American youth ; African Americans--Employment ; Birmingham (Ala.) African Americans--Southern States 387 Childhood Community What community did you grow up in? Johnson describes the neighborhoods he lived in within Birmingham. African American neighborhoods ; African Americans--Housing ; African Americans--Southern States Birmingham (Ala.) 696 Education How much education do you have? Johnson describes his experience attending high school. African Americans--Education (Secondary) ; African Americans--Education--Southern States ; African Americans--Social conditions ; Racism in education--United States African Americans--Education 870 Police & ; Community But let me just ask you, when you moved to Second Avenue, what kind of relationship did your community have with the Birmingham Police Department? Johnson discusses his community's relationship with the Birmingham Police Department. African Americans--Civil rights ; African Americans--Crimes against ; African Americans--Southern States ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Police brutality--United States Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 1021 Community Recreation Options Black folks didn't have places to go but two places in Birmingham. That was the Elks and the Masonic Temple. City auditorium was out of bounds, but yet your tax footed the bill. Johnson discusses recreational and athletic options available to African Americans in his community. African Amercans -- Athletics ; African Americans--Segregation ; African Americans--Social conditions ; Elks (Fraternal order) African Americans--Recreation 1185 Workplace Discrimination & ; Labor Unions Well, we talked about the [nineteen] forties and moving into the fifties and we know that the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized in 1956. Can you tell me, how and why did you get involved with the Civil Rights Movement? Johnson describes discrimination in the workplace, joining a union, and his motivations for becoming involved in the Civil Rights Movement. African Americans--Southern States ; Brotherhood of Railway Clerks ; Discrimination in employment--United States ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 African Americans--Civil rights ; African Americans--Employment ; Labor unions--United States--History--20th century 3162 Movement Involvement & ; Birmingham Bombings How did you get involved with the Movement? Johnson describes becoming involved in the Civil Rights Movement, including his participation in a watchmen's group during several bombings. African Americans--Civil rights ; African Americans--Crimes against ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States 4247 Workplace Discrimination But I never was afraid because I asked God to give me a good job. Johnson discusses his experience with workplace/pay discrimination. African Americans--Civil rights African Americans--Employment 4339 Police Harassment During the movement, I know you were very busy protecting the various houses and doing a lot of different things. Were you ever arrested? Johnson discusses his personal experience with the Birmingham Police Department. African American women ; African Americans--Civil rights ; African Americans--Crimes against ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Police brutality--United States 4675 Church Response to Movement What church were you a member of? Johnson discusses his church's response to the Civil Rights Movement. African Americans--Religion ; African Americans--Southern States ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights African Americans--Civil rights 4826 Family Response to Activism What was the reaction of your father and your wife to your being so active in the movement? Johnson describes his family's response to his participation in the Civil Rights Movement. African American families African Americans--Civil rights 4894 Reflection on Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth What— Really, one of my really top motivations was Fred Shuttlesworth. He could explain God's idea of freedom so well that it would just take away the fear from your heart. Johnson reflects on the impact and legacy of Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth. African Americans--Civil rights ; African Americans--Religion ; Civil rights movement Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 5134 Interview Conclusion Okay, well, we certainly appreciate your time and I would like to just say that I want to do this again, because there are a number of issues. Interview Conclusion Oral History Colonel Stone Johnson discusses being one of Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth's bodyguards, fighting workplace discrimination and serving on many local organizations and boards, including the BCRI. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Colonel Stone Johnson for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project done by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College, January 6, 1995. Good morning, Colonel, how are you doing this morning? JOHNSON: Good morning, Dr. Huntley. How are you? HUNTLEY: I' ; m doing great. JOHNSON: Good. HUNTLEY: It' ; s a pleasure to have you here. As you know, what we are attempting to do is get individual histories of people who have been actively involved in the development of Birmingham, particularly as it relates to the Civil Rights Movement. I appreciate you coming out this morning. Let me just start by asking you, what part of the state were your parents from? JOHNSON: Hayneville, Alabama, Lowndes County in the Deep South, in the Black Belt. HUNTLEY: In the Black Belt. Were you born there? JOHNSON: Yes sir. HUNTLEY: How old were you then when you came to Birmingham? JOHNSON: Oh--I was about four years old when they brought me to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: So, you are basically, a Birmingham boy, then. Did you ever go back to Lowndes County to visit? JOHNSON: Oh, I go regular. It' ; s a haven to me. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? JOHNSON: Well, I don' ; t have any now. I had one brother. HUNTLEY: Was he younger or older than you? JOHNSON: He was three years older than I was. HUNTLEY: What about your parents education? How much education did your parents have? JOHNSON: My old man had a college degree. My mother didn' ; t have but a third or fourth grade. HUNTLEY: What was their occupation? Did your mother work outside the home? JOHNSON: Housewife, all the way. HUNTLEY: And your father' ; s occupation? JOHNSON: Well, he started off-- His first job was teaching school for $30 in Lowndes County. Then, he got a job at Thorsby or Clanton. He worked in three or four little towns between Birmingham and Montgomery. They had pipe shops all up and down the Montgomery thoroughfare and the trains were very popular then. They had a plant in Verbena. He worked there a while and, then, the closer you get to Birmingham, the more money you can make. He moved on up then to Clanton. From Clanton to Helena and he worked in a pipe shop at Helena. From there he got with a company that was building sidewalks. They called him a cement finisher, and he worked with the cement finisher until he got his journeymanship and he got to be a full-fledged cement finisher. Then he started working in Birmingham and the company that he really worked, he told me that he really made it big on, was Milton and Erickson. One of the grandsons is a big contractor here in Birmingham now and he does a lot of work for Birmingham, but it' ; s just Milton Company now. When it was Milton and Erickson it was two brothers-in-law. He did a lot of figuring for them. They were farmers. They come from over in the old country. HUNTLEY: They' ; re from Europe? JOHNSON: Yes, in the European country. They couldn' ; t figure like he could, but they still used the American technique. HUNTLEY: Were they Italians or Jews? JOHNSON: No, they were Swedes. They come from Sweden. He [Johnson' ; s father] could tell you how many square foot was in any...figure any job they had to do. HUNTLEY: What did he major in, in college? You said he had a college education? JOHNSON: He majored in mathematics. HUNTLEY: Where did he go? JOHNSON: Alabama State [University] in Montgomery. HUNTLEY: So he then became a professional cement finisher. JOHNSON: And after then, after organized labor come in, he got to be the union representative for five counties--Jefferson, Saint Clair, Etowah, Tuscaloosa and Shelby. He stayed on that job until he was eighty-six years old. I had to beg him to quit because everybody wanted him to stay, but he was way over pension age then. HUNTLEY: So he was a union official when he retired? JOHNSON: Right. HUNTLEY: What community did you grow up in? JOHNSON: Well, I started in Travellick on Ellis Avenue. We stayed there a year or so. Then we moved to 1005 Sixteenth Street North and we stayed there from 1924 until 1946. I bought a house on Second Avenue, [house number] 708 Second Avenue North, and we moved there about 1946. I bought the house, really, in 1941 when I was single, and I rented it out until 1946. We moved in and made a double tenement out of it. My old man and my stepmother moved next door and we had one side. After a year or two, we had it jacked up and I put two apartments under it. HUNTLEY: How would you compare the different communities that you lived in from Travellick to the North side? JOHNSON: Well, where we moved in 1924 we were the first Blacks in the block. HUNTLEY: Were there Whites on the block? JOHNSON: Yes. On the corner was an Italian store. HUNTLEY: What was the name of the store? JOHNSON: Norman Schalaci' ; s Grocery. HUNTLEY: And that was on Ellis? JOHNSON: No, that was after we moved off Ellis. There was no store at all on Ellis at that time. We moved from Ellis in 1924 and moved to the North side and we stayed there. But at first we were the only Blacks on that block. HUNTLEY: Well, what happened when you moved there? Were there any repercussions because you moved in that neighborhood? JOHNSON: Not a bit, because Milton and Erickson owned just about everything in the block. Most of all the White folks was renting. It was four White homeowners in the block and the rest of the White people were renting. There were White people living in duplex houses and the real estate companies owned them. HUNTLEY: And this is Birmingham in 1924 and a Black family moves into a White neighborhood? JOHNSON: Right, but it is two Jewish families--one Italian family and another Jewish family. It was five White families and then it was a big millionaire lived in a big two-story house and had a servant house in the back. We called it the big house, because the Jones' ; lived there, but the rest of it was rented. HUNTLEY: So, you stayed there for twenty years until 1946? JOHNSON: Twenty-two years, yes. HUNTLEY: Then you moved to Tuscaloosa Avenue? JOHNSON: No, I moved to 708 Second Avenue North, one block west of Tee' ; s Place. It wasn' ; t Tee' ; s Place then. That' ; s where the Tee' ; s boys were born--five brothers, Taylors. They were born right next door, where that driveway goes into Tee' ; s Place. That' ; s where their home house was. The building next to them was an undertaker. HUNTLEY: So, we are seeing, then, the development of a Black community that' ; s really becoming rather self-sufficient. JOHNSON: Well, now, when I moved there a lot of Whites was in the neighborhood. Even the church next door, which Blacks eventually bought, was a White Methodist church. HUNTLEY: In more recent times when Blacks started to move into West End, Whites started to move out. Did that happen in [19]46 when you moved into your home? JOHNSON: Well, it happened slow, but, eventually, it wasn' ; t any Whites in there. HUNTLEY: How much education do you have? JOHNSON: Well, I have a high school education. HUNTLEY: Where did you get your education? JOHNSON: Correspondence courses. HUNTLEY: Where did you finish high school? JOHNSON: Industrial. HUNTLEY: Industrial High School? That' ; s now Parker High School. JOHNSON: Right. Dr. Parker was the principal when I finished. HUNTLEY: What were your experiences at Parker? What do you remember about it? JOHNSON: Well, people don' ; t like for me to say it, but I was shown a lot of discrimination at Parker, at Industrial. HUNTLEY: Parker, Industrial was a Black school, what do you mean you were shown discrimination? JOHNSON: Well, if you weren' ; t ' ; high yellow' ; you stayed in the back. I can remember in the Depression when the Y, it was like the WPA for the young folks, they paid thirty dollars a month. If your people--If wasn' ; t nobody in your family working, you could work at the school, help clean up, and they would give you thirty dollars a month. NYA - National Youth Association of America. I had a buddy, he' ; s a nice guy, and he' ; s real light [skinned]. His momma and daddy both are working and him and myself went to the office to put in our application at the same time and they wrote both of us up. At the first of the month, he started working. I never did start because I never did-- They never did give me a job. It happened to a lot of fellows like that, but they didn' ; t give you no excuse. But, old common sense would tell me what it was. And, also, my buddy told me, said, ' ; Well, I know what happened." ; And I saw a lot of discrimination, even on the football team. HUNTLEY: If you were not ' ; high yellow' ; or if you were Black, you simply had to step back? JOHNSON: If you Black, get back. If you' ; re Brown, stick around. HUNTLEY: What about the majorettes? JOHNSON: It was the same way. HUNTLEY: So, you are saying even within the race there was color discrimination? JOHNSON: Yes sir. HUNTLEY: That' ; s very interesting. That' ; s a topic that we are going to have to deal with at another time. But let me just ask you, when you moved to Second Avenue, what kind of relationship did your community have with the Birmingham Police Department? JOHNSON: Well, the Birmingham Police Department was all White and just to my thoughts and seeing what was going on, most of the police was Ku Klux. If they weren' ; t, they acted like it. HUNTLEY: What do you mean they ' ; acted like it.' ; JOHNSON: Well, they were overbearing, especially to Blacks. Anything you let a person do to one race, he' ; d try it on another. I' ; ve seen them beat White women just like they beat Black folks when they ran. They beat Black folks without reason. For a Black person, if they just felt like whipping you, they' ; d whip you. You didn' ; t have to resist arrest. But, ordinarily, the way things were a White person just figured that they weren' ; t supposed to be treated like that and when they ran, they beat them too. You could make the error they' ; d say you was making, not say ' ; Yes, sir' ; and ' ; No, sir.' ; If you said, ' ; Yes' ; and ' ; No' ; the way you were taught in school, then the man would take the club and hit you across the head. They had hoses they used to carry, instead of ' ; billy sticks' ; . They had hoses like... It was a heavy duty hose like a water hose, but it was industrial hose and they' ; re real heavy, reinforced. They would hit you across the head with that hose. HUNTLEY: Did you ever witness any of that? JOHNSON: Oh, I have seen them hit a lot of folks. They cut up so around there, you didn' ; t have to go to picture show. You could see all the picture show with the police and the Black community on Friday and Saturday night. Black folks didn' ; t have but two places to go in Birmingham. That was the Elks and the Masonic Temple. City auditorium was out of bounds, but yet your tax footed the bill. HUNTLEY: What other kinds of recreation did the various communities have in the Black neighborhood? JOHNSON: Oh, baseball, basketball. HUNTLEY: I know that a lot of the industrial areas had different baseball teams and these teams, on the weekends, would play each other. Could you describe any of the events? JOHNSON: Oh, they had big times at the baseball games. But all your ball games-- Your Blacks didn' ; t have nowhere to play. But, they had Sloss field out in ACIPCO [American Cast Iron Pipe Company] and Perfection Mattress had two teams. They had a Black Team and a White team. ACIPCO had a Black team and a White team. Stockham Valve had Black and White teams. Out in Bessemer, all of these places had Black and White teams. HUNTLEY: TCI [Tennessee Coal and Iron] had one? JOHNSON: Yes sir, but when integration come along then they done away with all your ball teams. HUNTLEY: Why is that? JOHNSON: They didn' ; t want to play with Blacks. HUNTLEY: Rather than integrating, they just did away with them? JOHNSON: Yes sir. HUNTLEY: What about community organizations? Were you a member of any community organizations at the time. Did you hold any offices? JOHNSON: No, they had a lot of discrimination in that too. If you.. they' ; d tell you... Blacks would tell you if you don' ; t own your own home, you couldn' ; t join the Democratic organization. I owned my home, but I wasn' ; t going to brag about it and it was up before I was invited to come into some of the meetings. HUNTLEY: You owned your home, but you were dark? JOHNSON: No, that wasn' ; t it. I wasn' ; t in the upper class. HUNTLEY: So, you had a class stratification? JOHNSON: Right. HUNTLEY: Well, we talked about the [nineteen] forties and moving into the fifties and we know that the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized in 1956. Can you tell me, how and why did you get involved with the Civil Rights Movement? JOHNSON: Yes sir. My involvement in civil rights started early in the railroad shop. When I was hired, March 31, 1942. And when I got out there I saw such a big difference in the treatment of men and where I had been working for just a minimum wage. Really there wasn' ; t a minimum wage. They paid you what they wanted to. They had a little union at some of the places. HUNTLEY: Where was this? Where were you working? JOHNSON: I was working for Bowden Provision Company. HUNTLEY: What did you do out there? JOHNSON: I was a truck driver and they had an office in Hormel Packing Company. They did most of their buying from Hormel and Hormel let them have an office there, and they stored their goods there and the guy was real nice. He treated everybody the same, but he had some kin folks would call you a nigger in a minute. But he wouldn' ; t. He knew your name. He' ; d find out your name and he' ; d call you by your name. He wouldn' ; t call you John, Joe, uncle and all that, but he had some kin folk that would call you anything. You see, when a fellow... It' ; s intimidating for a man to call you uncle and he' ; s older than you are... or John. When I went to the railroad shop... I quit working for this guy, not for any kind of race relations or treatment or anything, but finance. I wasn' ; t making the kind of money I thought I should be making. But now, on that job there was a difference in pay between Blacks and Whites. When I went to the railroad shop, if you' ; re the labor, all labor made the same thing. They had a union shop. HUNTLEY: If you were Black or White? JOHNSON: Black or White. If you the helper or the helper' ; s mate, it' ; s the same thing. But where the difference come, where the segregation come, is in promotion. You could have a high school education, and had some college through correspondence and the White man they get right off the farm, fourth or fifth grade. I' ; ve seen them bring them in by the truckload. Some farmer bring in a truck load of people that he knows from Cullman or Huntsville, somewhere up in north Alabama in the war time in the forties [1940s] and World War Two. They brought the White fellows in there by the truck load and hired every one of them. They would hire fifty men. They would be riding on the back ton-and-a-half truck like cattle, but they' ; d hire them. Some of them they' ; d hire, they would have maybe an eighth or tenth grade education. They would hire them as helpers and you were still a laborer and you would know all the work, but you didn' ; t get the preference that you should get. So, they had a bad habit. I' ; ve seen them kick fellows just like they kick a dog. They called themselves playing. There was a young fellow just had come out of high school. He got hired out there and I see him regular, but I' ; m not going to call his name. He' ; s still living--a very intelligent looking young man. And, I saw a foreman kick him and just laughed and it' ; s something in me just reared.... at God given man. I couldn' ; t take it. I asked, ' ; What y' ; all doing?' ; I called him by his name and he said, ' ; We just playing,' ; and just laughed. I said, ' ; The ball field is unequal.' ; I said, ' ; If y' ; all playing, look like you' ; d kick him some time to make it fair.' ; And the foreman said, ' ; That nigger' ; s crazy.' ; HUNTLEY: Talking about you? JOHNSON: Yes. I said, ' ; You' ; ll see how crazy I am if you kick me.' ; And he said, ' ; Oh, the nigger is crazy, sure enough. I see he' ; s crazy,' ; but he never did kick me. HUNTLEY: This is in the forties? JOHNSON: Yes, that was in 1942. I had been there about eight or ten months. I asked them did they have a union. They said, ' ; Yes, but the Blacks are not in it.' ; HUNTLEY: Blacks couldn' ; t join the union? JOHNSON: They wouldn' ; t exactly tell you that. You was in the department, in the clerical department and they had a clerk' ; s union, Brotherhood of Railway Clerks. So, I decided on my own to talk to a union representative, because I had always believed in the union in the little jobs I had been on. You see, I had worked in both places, in the packing house and for Bowden Company. I worked for Hormel and Bowden. Hormel had the CIO and they hadn' ; t merged then. They merged about [19]46 or ' ; 47, the CIO and the AFL did. But anyway, when I went to this guy, he said, ' ; Well, ain' ; t no Blacks in our union,' ; just like that. So then I went to Mr. Louis Berry, a Black guy who was over the firemen and oilers. He said, ' ; Come up to the union hall' ; and he told me when the union was going to meet. And he said, ' ; We' ; ll explain to you how you can get you an auxiliary.' ; An auxiliary is different from a full-fledged union. HUNTLEY: Were the Firemen and Oilmen a Black union? JOHNSON: Yes sir. Louis Berry was the head of it--Louis Berry and George Henderson. HUNTLEY: Were they affiliated with the CIO? JOHNSON: They were in the Brotherhood of Firemen and Oilers, which was part of the AFL at that time. So they told me, ' ; You have to have something out of your department, but we will get you a man down here to organize y' ; all an auxiliary.' ; They wrote to the headquarters, which was in Cincinnati, Ohio at that time and they sent a man, a field representative named Mr. St. John, a White man. He came down and talked with us and he stopped at the Bankhead Hotel and when we went to go see him, we had to go to the back and get on the freight elevator to go up to his room. But, anyway, he organized a union for the Blacks in the clerk department of the railroad. But that made them have dual representation and they wouldn' ; t give but one shop a district chairman, so that would always be a White man. That made us be under them. So if you had any kind of grievance, you would have to ... After you filed your grievance they would never be justifiable in it, and you would want to appeal it. You had to go to the district chairman which was over the White union, and if you were trying to get a promotion, he didn' ; t want you to have it. The same folks you were paying your money to was keeping you back. But anyway, we organized and Reverend Shuttlesworth' ; s uncle, August U. Morris, we voted him the president and we voted Regis Adams vice president and just come on down the line. It was hard to get folks to accept positions because they were afraid the company would retaliate, so they gave Morris both positions. He was the union representative and the president for the first couple of years. They would always... We would get together and have a little pow wow away from the union hall so Morris asked me, ' ; Why won' ; t you take the chairman of the protective committee?' ; And I said, ' ; Well, I can' ; t take it. You have to vote me in... I' ; ll accept it if y' ; all vote me in.' ; He said he' ; d recommend it and they recommend me and I stayed in there twenty eight years. HUNTLEY: What position was that? JOHNSON: Chairman of the Protective Committee. They called it the union representative, but in writing it' ; s Chairman of the Protective Committee and I stayed in that job... and Reuben Davis was in the Firemen and Oiler with George Henderson and Louis Berry. I got with Reuben. We had been working on that side by ourselves, so we got together where we could understand the rules and regulations. You see, a lot of fine print it' ; s hard for a man to understand all of it. But when you have a round table discussion and you put your know-how in, and I put mine, and the other fellow put his, you can get together and work out something. So, Reuben figured how a grievance was supposed to be written up and he started to write them up for all the Blacks. I took Reuben and we stopped the folks from kicking Black folks. Some of the fellows, before they stopped it, you see, they got by [with] kicking Blacks for so long, some of them would kick White folks. HUNTLEY: Some of the Whites would kick the Whites? JOHNSON: Oh yeah, if you let a fellow.... If you let your dog bite your next-door neighbor, he will go on down the street and bite somebody else. Eventually, he would bite the police when he come by. HUNTLEY: Now these are usually people that are in supervisory positions. JOHNSON: Right, right. The first man I wrote up, his name was E. J. Higgins--great big, old, fat White gentleman and, boy, he acted like he had a kicking machine the way he used to kick fellows. I saw him kick an old Black fellow seventy or eighty years old, a peg leg man. His name was E. J. Higgins and I wrote him up to the master mechanic. That was the top man in the shop. The only boss he had was the superintendent and at the time I wrote him up we had a superintendent that was the toughest I ever seen. But, he was about as straight a guy, at that time, that I had ever met and he didn' ; t have no kind of manners. He would cuss just about every word he said, but he still had more of a level playing ground than anybody I' ; ve met because the same cursing he put on you, he' ; d put on ' ; Mr. Charlie.' ; Well, I wrote this guy up to Mr. Richard McWilliams. We called him Dick McWilliams. He' ; s a little fellow, but if you didn' ; t see him you' ; d think a giant was talking when he spoke. He had a bass voice and he really spoke with authority. He had authority. The company gave him authority and he used it, and when I wrote him up-- You see, back in those days, and it ain' ; t much different now in the office-- When a letter came in to the superintendent, the chief clerk got authority to open it up. All mail come in and the chief clerk would look at it and, to protect White folks, if that letter was wrote up against one of the foremen they' ; d put it in ' ; file 13' ; and the master mechanic would never see it. But, I wrote a letter, and the little reputation I had built for being straight in helping people, they knew that if I didn' ; t hear from the letter, I was going to the man and ask him why. So, they took the letter and sent for my supervisor--not my foreman, my supervisor--and told him, [they] said, ' ; Johnson done wrote up Mr. Brighton and Mr. Brighton' ; s going to lose his job. The company don' ; t allow this, all this stuff y' ; all been doing. You' ; ve just been getting by.' ; Said, ' ; He wrote up Mr. Bryant for kicking a man,' ; and said, ' ; The first rule in the book, he' ; s got...he' ; s got it quoted there.' ; The first rule in the book said no horseplay, no wrestling, no scuffling, no stealing, no drinking at any time on company premises or you will be dismissed. So when they got the letter and they had their little conference, then my supervisor sent for me. He was the superintendent for a big Sunday school church, a big Baptist church in the community there where the shop was. He was a man you could sit down and talk to him. Lot of folks you can' ; t talk to when they big folks. He was a big man that you could talk to, but he was on the other side of the river. He was a discriminator, too, but not as bad as some of the other folks. The little boy says, ' ; His bite wasn' ; t as bad as some of the bites,' ; but, anyway, he called me and told me he wanted a conference with me, and I said, ' ; Yes, sir.' ; I went into his office and he wanted to go back outside to the warehouse. ' ; There' ; s a question I want to ask you and I don' ; t want nobody else to hear it.' ; He said, ' ; Johnson, you know all our conversations you talk about saving a man' ; s job.' ; I said, ' ; That' ; s right.' ; [He said,] ' ; Here you done wrote up a man and he going to lose his job if we let this go through.' ; I said, ' ; We who?' ; He said, ' ; You and myself. I' ; m your boss and I' ; m his boss.' ; I said, ' ; Yes, but I' ; ve been watching that fellow, and he treat these fellows like they are dogs.' ; He said, ' ; He ever done anything to you?' ; And I said, ' ; No, but I' ; m my brothers' ; keeper. I' ; m head of the union. How can I represent a man and turn my head when he' ; s kicking a man like he a dog and the man is just as humble as a lamb? I had to write him up.' ; He said, ' ; Well, what would you do to take the letter out?' ; And I said, ' ; Mr. Bryant promises me never kick another Black man on the company premises and I' ; ll take the letter out immediately. Other than that, I can' ; t do it.' ; He said, ' ; Well, I think we can handle that. I' ; ve already talked to E. J. so I' ; ll call him.' ; He called him. [E.J.] was in another building about half a mile from where we were. The shop, at that time, was a five-mile shop, but when I left it was a ten-mile shop. But anyway, this guy wanted to be a real heavy, but that was his boss. He said, ' ; Tell Johnson I said to call me." ; He came back and told me and I said, ' ; I don' ; t want to see him. Tell him to call me on the warehouse phone. He wants to see me. I don' ; t want to see him.' ; So, finally, he called and said, ' ; Johnson, you want to see me?' ; I said, ' ; No, sir, I don' ; t want to see you.' ; He said, ' ; Well, I heard that you got me wrote up.' ; I said, ' ; Yes, sir.' ; He said, ' ; What you wrote about me?' ; He said, ' ; All you know. Y' ; all have already discussed it. You don' ; t know how to keep your feet on the ground. You' ; re kicking folks.' ; He said, ' ; Well, the man didn' ; t complain.' ; I said, ' ; But I saw it with my own eyes. I represent the man. He didn' ; t have to tell me or ask me. I wrote you up because it is unbecoming a company employee to act like you act, especially in the position you' ; re in.' ; So, he said, ' ; Well, what would I have to do?' ; I said, ' ; The man done already told you. The supervisor told you.' ; He said, ' ; Yeah, he told me, but I want you to tell me.' ; I said, ' ; I' ; ll sure tell you. You make me a promise you won' ; t kick another Black man on the company premises and I will take the letter out.' ; He said, ' ; Well, if it suits you, I' ; ll promise you that I won' ; t do it no more.' ; I said, ' ; Well, it suits me, and I' ; ll go take the letter out.' ; So when I... I worked on the first floor and the office was upstairs and I went upstairs. All the typewriters quit. There was about ten to twelve clerks. Everybody quit work, because the discussion had went on. I went to the chief clerk and spoke. ' ; Good morning, sir.' ; He said, ' ; Good morning, Johnson. What can I do for you?' ; I said, ' ; Well, I' ; ve got a letter up here and we' ; ve negotiated to take it out, and I want to take it out.' ; He said, ' ; Here it is. You' ; re the only somebody that can take it out.' ; And I took it and threw it in the wastebasket. But, now, I never heard about another Black fellow being kicked or seen one. HUNTLEY: By Bryant or anybody else? JOHNSON: Nobody else. They put a bulletin out. On the bottom he put, ' ; Now I mean what I say. If I catch anybody breaking rule number one or any other rule, they' ; ve got to go.' ; When Reuben Davis come back from World War Two, they didn' ; t want Blacks in the steel gang talking about rebuilding freight cars for the railroad company. Those jobs paid good money. That was a top job. Reuben Davis never did get one, but he fixed it where the Blacks could get them. You see, when you go to the army-- There' ; s a proclamation [that] when you leave a job and go fight for your country, wherever you were working, when you come back you' ; re supposed to have been promoted, more money increased. They' ; re supposed to recognize you by seniority. So, Reuben asked for some more jobs for Blacks in the steel gang. Had no Blacks been going in it--nothing but laborers to pick up scrap and move it out the way when they tear the stuff off the cars. So, they called Reuben a troublemaker, but all the fellows that was in Reuben' ; s union, maybe forty or fifty, they upgraded them to helpers. And, then, a lot of them they upgraded from helpers to car repairman. That means a top grade journeyman. And, they put out a hate list. It wasn' ; t in writing. It was word of mouth. This same master mechanic that I was telling you was more fair than anybody else, but he' ; s the toughest guy I ever met in my whole life-- HUNTLEY: McWilliams? JOHNSON: McWilliams, Richard McWilliams. He told in a personnel meeting--and if you do your work in the union somebody' ; s going to tell you what happened in the personnel meeting-- And, when they got through with the meeting and everything and their conversation brought up about Reuben Davis, how he was invading the job, Whites' ; jobs for Blacks, then he [McWilliams] showed his discrimination. He said, ' ; I want Reuben Davis' ; job at all costs. If you have to lie on him, get his job. I want to run him off. I can' ; t run him off for nothing. We got to have something concrete on him.' ; Reuben' ; s foreman, being a Christian gentleman, Mr. McIntire, said, ' ; I can' ; t do it.' ; He said, ' ; He' ; s a good worker and I' ; d have to lie, and I ain' ; t going to lie on him. He does his work.' ; Reuben Davis was a tractor drive--what you call a push-up man. He pushed the cars on the assembly line in the big shed where they worked on them. And, when they finished working on them, he pushed them out. It' ; s three or four lines he had to push, but he was sitting there on his tractor--what you call ' ; on the minute' ; all the time. As soon as he finished a line--and nobody could move a line but the foreman--and we walked both sides of the track to see if everybody was clear, then he' ; d tell Reuben to shove them out and Reuben would shove them out. They he would shovel another line of cars in there for them to work on. But he wouldn' ; t go along with the wrong program. And had a guy, a red-headed foreman, named Sam Hollingsworth. Sam said he was a labor foreman. Now, he wasn' ; t really Reuben' ; s foreman ordinarily, but when the other foreman would be off, he would substitute for this guy to have a day off. He took on the responsibility to get Reuben' ; s job. He finally come out there one day when the regular foreman was off and told Reuben that he wasn' ; t doing nothing and that he needed a man over here at the wheel shop, the most dangerous in the shop, rolling train wheels weighing nine hundred pounds according to the car they went under, eight and nine hundred pounds. And, they come loose in boxcars and you had to stand them up when they fall. They lined up. They were standing up and when one fell, you had to have help to get it up. [It] had the big stick in it called a wheel stick and the men catch it by their hand and two of them would catch the stick and they would pull it down and straighten that wheel up. Whoever' ; s turn it is to get a wheel, they would catch it and roll it out and it' ; s on a flank, which it helped me out at the wheel shop. We got a load of wheels that needed unloading. So Reuben had better sense than to tell him, ' ; I ain' ; t going to do it.' ; Reuben said, ' ; I was just fixing to come to you. I' ; m sick and I want to go home.' ; He said, ' ; Oh, you refuse to work?' ; He said, ' ; No, I' ; m not refusing to work. I' ; m sick.' ; ' ; Ah, you' ; re refusing to work.' ; So he wrote Reuben up that he was refusing to work and to take orders from him. So, they fired Reuben. Reuben stayed off a year and his case went all the way to the National Railway Labor Board through appealing and he had a union lawyer out of St. Louis and they won the case in a year. HUNTLEY: So he was back on the job? JOHNSON: Well, while he was off, he started teaching mechanics at Bessemer Tech or either-- I' ; m thinking he went to Abrams first, then he went to Bessemer Tech. But, in that deal, in the space of time, they sent Reuben a letter in May, about May first and told him he had his job back, but he was teaching then. He wrote them back and said he would be back in thirty days. When school was out on May 28th, Reuben come to work on June first and whatever they owed him, he got his money and then he worked on through close to ninety days and he gave them another notice that he was resigning and went back to teach school. HUNTLEY: So, then, from your activism with the union, you had basically seen and understood the way that racism worked? Then, in the [nineteen] fifties when the movement started, you were basically primed for that because you had already been doing this kind of work? JOHNSON: Well, yes. What really motivated me-- Shuttlesworth' ; s uncle was the president of my local and he was in the undertaking business on the side. They picked at him because he was in business. They didn' ; t know he was in business, but the informers, the other Black folks, would tell them. He was an undertaker then and sometimes he would drive a seven passenger car to work back when there really were only a few seven passenger cars at that time. But, anyway, Shuttlesworth and his wife-- Where I met Shuttlesworth-- His wife was Morris' ; niece. They raised her...Mr. and Mrs. Morris. Shuttlesworth' ; s wife was named Ruby and her auntie was named Adella. She was a school teacher and A.U. was a clerk at the shop. There was only about three Black clerks out there that were top clerks, and one of them was A. C. McClenny, lived in Titusville, a highly educated, most respected education fellow. I mean he was very intelligent. He was a dispatcher. All the train movements went out...he set up the schedule. And this man, McWilliams, when he come, he stopped this Black guy from doing all the White folks' ; work. You see, he worked second shift and if anything was set up wrong at the first shift, he would straighten it out so that the book work would go in right. And when he left off of his shift, he stayed there until twelve thirty [12:30] and one o' ; clock and was supposed to leave at eleven o' ; clock and would straighten things up and line it up for the third shift. So McWilliams told them, ' ; Y' ; all going to have to hire some intelligent White folks or get some Black ones and put them on the job, because this man working and you are not even paying him.' ; They didn' ; t pay him for extra work. He was just staying there to help his fellow man and he did it for years to my knowing. But McWilliams told him, ' ; When it' ; s time for you to get off, leave and don' ; t come to work [at] no twelve thirty or one o' ; clock like you' ; ve been coming. Your job comes on at three o' ; clock. HUNTLEY: Who did they hire? Did they hire a Black person for the job? JOHNSON: No. The White guy that was on it was an old man. He got off of it. Then a young White guy, well educated, got on it. HUNTLEY: So A.C. McClenny remained as..? JOHNSON: Yes, until he got ready to retire. HUNTLEY: How did you get involved with the Movement? JOHNSON: Anyway, after so long a time, I had done a little extra work for the undertaker shop and we got to be good friends. Shuttlesworth was going to Selma University, him and his wife both, and we would go down there. I would drive the seven-passenger car, taking Morris down there, because I was one of his employees and he just used me for a chauffeur. But, anyway, I met Shuttlesworth, and he was such a likeable fellow that we got to be good friends and when they bombed his house in fifty seven [1957] or fifty eight--I' ; ve got a record of it, but I don' ; t have it with me, and I thought it was in this book, that' ; s the reason I brought it, but-- When they bombed his house in fifty seven or fifty eight, and I went out there Christmas morning, they bombed it that Christmas Eve night. They generally do their bombing at midnight. But anyway, it was just like they bombed my house. It could have been mine. See, if you stand up, talk straight, the Klu Klux would retaliate. They didn' ; t count the law. A lot of folks don' ; t know it, but God says you got to reap what you sow. Young Blacks don' ; t count the law now. They don' ; t pay it no mind. The city is reaping--no special person, the city--the power to be, because once upon a time the power didn' ; t respect the law and they were the law. Now, these Black boys and a lot of White boys will kill you in a minute. Right now, youngsters, teenagers, when they get to fighting, the first thing come in their mind, is I' ; ll kill you. See, the Klu Klux used that word and method through the years and it' ; s just reaping time. But, anyway, I went over to Morris' ; office that next day, or two or three days after, and we were talking about what happened and Morris said, ' ; Johnson, you know Shuttlesworth can' ; t get nobody to watch his house and the church?' ; I said, ' ; Well, what do you think we ought to do?' ; He said, ' ; You' ; ve got a lot of influence with the men out here in the union and during the meeting nights ask some of the fellows to volunteer.' ; In the meantime, I had a good friend that was president of a mine local. His name was Will Hall. They called him John L. Lewis because he represented the miners union and he was real tough. HUNTLEY: Was he a coal miner or an ore miner? JOHNSON: Coal miner. He lived next door to the Ballad House. I used to know the name of the house. The lady that owned the house owned the taxi company and they called the house...it had a special name and it was two doors from St. Johns Methodist Church on Fifteenth Street and Seventh Avenue North. But anyway, I went hunting Will Hall and told him the circumstances. And we had another fellow, a union-minded fellow named George Walker, and we all got together. The Lord fixed it for us to get together. We got up a watchmen group. In those days, you couldn' ; t have gotten by calling it a watchmen group or a security group, so they had the Alabama Christian Movement going. They just wrote us up as ' ; ushers' ; for the Christian Movement. But ordinarily, we were security men and that' ; s the way we got together and started watching the church. HUNTLEY: How many men were involved with this group? With the watchman group? J ; Well, really, it was a lot of men and they fixed it where you didn' ; t have to stay but three or four hours when you first started off. HUNTLEY: So you started by watching Shuttlesworth' ; s home? JOHNSON: Right, and the church. The first parsonage they blew into splinters on the first bombing. That' ; s when they left Shuttlesworth lying there on the mattress. And God being who He is, just one girl in the family got one little scratch on her cheek. Nobody else got any scratches at all and that was the girl next door to this one...uh, Ricky. That' ; s her nickname. Now I know her name, but right at the time--We called her Ricky so long... HUNTLEY: There was one time when you had diffused some dynamite. Can you tell me about that? JOHNSON: I' ; ll tell you about that. They had got so bad out there. This J. B. Stoner, he was the chief bomber. He would ride around all night in a yellow cab and that made me to know the Yellow Cab Company in some kind of way was tied with the bombing...that is, some of the entrepreneurs that owned Yellow Cab. No driver could drive a car around with one man all the week, all night every night. HUNTLEY: Did you know J. B. Stoner at that time? JOHNSON: No, I really didn' ; t know too much about him. I had seen him on TV talking about [how] Black folks ought to go back to Africa, ought to be shipped back to Africa and a whole lot of stuff. But, anyway, he' ; d ride around in that cab and we could see... You know, keep seeing a person' ; s face regular, you can remember it. I had never seen him walk. I didn' ; t know he was crippled until one Sunday evening when we were out there watching. In the daytime they had a program at the church and Reverend Shuttlesworth was in the church, in the office of the church. He was living in the new parsonage then, across the street, and he come from home and come right towards us and spoke to everybody and passed a few words and went on to his office. A little while, Stoner come up walking. He had parked the cab around the corner and he had a limp. One leg was longer than the other. He had a shoe with a lot of heel to it, and sole to lengthen it out, so it give him a kind of even walk, but he still walked with a limp. We were sitting across the street at Mr. Robert Revis' ; house. On his front porch he had it closed in and a heater and everything for us to sit there and watch the front of the church. The next-door neighbor, Sam Smiley, had a garage in the back of his backyard and we had a watchman station there. To watch the back of the church, we had men in the church at the back windows. But it' ; s hard to see a fellow if he gets close to the building. That' ; s what happened when they planted this bomb that I' ; m fixing to tell you about. But at the Revis' ; home there was four of us sitting there: James Russell, myself, Will Hall and another miner used to sell peanuts and sell them. He ran a store out in Pratt City and we just called him Peanut Seller. I don' ; t know his name. But, anyway, we were all sitting there on the porch and it might have been somebody else. I know it was four or more. And one of Mr. Revis' ; daughters come in. Her name was LaVerne McWilliams at that time. She had come back home to stay with her mother and daddy. But, her date brought her in around twelve o' ; clock, around midnight, in a brown Chrysler automobile. I never will forget it and when she got out the car she said, ' ; Y' ; all going to sit there and let the church burn up?' ; ' ; Burn up? What you mean?' ; She said, ' ; See? Look at the smoke coming from the side of the church.' ; That was the bomb. It was in a fresh paint can and by the fuse being lit that made the paint smoke. We hadn' ; t seen the smoke. They had somebody just set it there, and we didn' ; t see who sit it there. HUNTLEY: You didn' ; t see any cars pass? JOHNSON: Well, the cars had passed, but somebody walked up-- You see the alley was right behind the church and they just walked up and got close to the building and set it down. It was on Saturday night and a lot of folks were walking at that time. But, anyway, we rushed out, Will Hall and myself, and we got up close to it and you ever heard what a fire cracker says? Well, the dynamite says it the same way. The shorter the fuse gets, the louder the sound like a rattlesnake. But anyway, I says, ' ; John L., that' ; s some dynamite.' ; He says, ' ; I know it is.' ; Him being experienced with fuses in mines, he says, ' ; Yeah, it' ; s some dynamite.' ; He says, ' ; Let' ; s get it.' ; And both of us reached for it about the same time and caught the bail of the five-gallon paint can and walked about eight or ten feet and set it in the gutter. The street wasn' ; t paved then. It had a little ditch going by and we sit it down in that gutter of the ditch and backed off maybe eight or ten feet and it went off. But, as we were coming from the house where we were at the watch station to the bomb, I said, ' ; Somebody run in the church and tell them men to come out quick. It' ; s some dynamite out here and we don' ; t want the church to be blowed away and they in there and kill everybody in there.' ; We forgot about ourselves. We were looking out for the other men. And about the time they got out there, a fellow named Elijah Dawson--we called him ' ; Lige--he come up and say, ' ; What' ; s the matter?.-- BOOM!! He was about ten feet from it, and he was the only one who got a scratch. A little shrapnel of steel hit him on the cheek. Now it blowed all the glass out the church and for five or six blocks around dishes broke on the folks in the pantries and windows broke out of houses as much as seven and eight blocks, but the church still stood. HUNTLEY: Were you standing when it went off? JOHNSON: Oh, yes. I was standing about, maybe, seven or eight feet from it. As soon as I set it down and backed up and--at the same time, while we were doing that, those other fellows were coming out the church--and about the time Dawson got down there to see what was going on, it went off. We had a lot of fellows I could call by name that never did come back. But you can' ; t think hard of a fellow, because nobody can take the fear out of your heart but God. It had just frightened a lot of them to death and when some of them went home and told their wives about it, the women didn' ; t want them to go back anymore. But John L and myself-- It got real thin after that second bombing, but the men eventually come back. The Lord had always sent somebody else there. I can remember when it got real thin and it was a fellow, I can' ; t think of his last name. I had never seen him at the church, but he lived two or three blocks from the church. HUNTLEY: Which church? JOHNSON: Shuttlesworth' ; s church. His next-door neighbor, they were buddies and they would always come by there and speak. They were nice guys seemed to me. ' ; How you fellows doing?' ; We' ; d speak, ' ; Fine. How are you all?' ; They started to watching after they saw we needed somebody and, then, eventually, it built back up. HUNTLEY: But while you were watching Shuttlesworth' ; s church, they were also bombing in the area that' ; s called Dynamite Hill. Did you watch homes up there as well? JOHNSON: Yeah, I didn' ; t really have a station up there but they,... Robert Cole called me several times when the cars would be driving by the houses. You probably know Robert. And the people never did give Leroy Galliard the credit he should have gotten. He had two-way radios in his station wagons. He had a plumbing company. Galliard furnished the two-way radios for the watchmen on Dynamite Hill. A lot of times, we would leave Shuttlesworth' ; s house and go by Dynamite Hill and help them out. I know it was a straining job, but we never did get tired and I figured later on in life that God just wouldn' ; t let us get tired. We weren' ; t getting much rest. But let me tell you this first. After that bombing, Jet Magazine come along. Will Hall was on pension and Jet Magazine wanted to interview both of us. I wouldn' ; t let them interview me because the job I had. Not being afraid, but you had to use your head. They would have framed me and got my job. You see, they would put a smear on you like the folks tried to do Richard Arrington. They have done everything in the book to smear Richard Arrington, but when God' ; s in the plan, it' ; s hard for you to smear a fellow. Hard. I watched it. You read your Bible, read Joseph, ' ; a chosen man of God to save his people.' ; When God puts a man in a position like Dick Arrington, you can' ; t hurt him. We' ; re not talking about Dick now, but I had to bring that in there. Anyway, when Jet come along and everybody come along say, ' ; Man, you' ; d be known all over the world.' ; I said, ' ; I' ; m working for a cause, not for an ego.' ; When you go to work talking about an ego trip, no, God won' ; t be in that plan. You' ; ll use the little that you have. But, they wrote it up in Jet and I had a lot of criticism. Folks said, ' ; Man, if I was you...' ; ' ; But,' ; I said, ' ; You' ; re not me. If you was, you' ; d be out here helping to watch Shuttlesworth Church.' ; Members of the church even told me. I said, ' ; Man, how come you won' ; t come out here and watch your own church?' ; And, then, a fellow that worked with me at the shop, he still living, he told the assistant superintendent that I was out there watching and that was a slur to get my job. Any kind of excuse back in yesteryear they would get your job. And that' ; s what they would use. It' ; s what you call a backlash. A lot of folks were afraid. But I never was afraid because I asked God to give me a good job. And the way he give it to me [was] through my wife, and every once in a while she' ; d take credit now. She' ; d say, ' ; You know, I got you that job out there.' ; HUNTLEY: Why did she get you the job? JOHNSON: Well, she was working for the master mechanic at that time--at his house. HUNTLEY: She was working for McWilliams? JOHNSON: No, McWilliams wasn' ; t a master mechanic. Before him. Theodore Cramer. He was quiet and easy, nice, but he believed in discrimination too, cause he didn' ; t in promotion. Anytime a man don' ; t believe in you getting equal pay, it don' ; t matter how nice he talk. HUNTLEY: It doesn' ; t mean anything? JOHNSON: No. You see, it' ; s your livelihood that really counts. But, anyway, my wife recommended me and would tell the lady about me driving on the road and going out of town and be so late coming in and working these long hours with straight pay, no overtime or nothing, no vacation. So, she told her husband and he told me to come out to the shop. I went out there and he hired me. That' ; s where it come in at. I asked the Lord, but that' ; s the way it come in. HUNTLEY: During the movement, I know you were very busy protecting the various houses and doing a lot of different things. Were you ever arrested? JOHNSON: Well, yes and no. I was harassed. A lot of times I would leave Shuttlesworth' ; s house on Sunday morning. As soon as daylight come, we would leave and the police would be waiting on you. If you went out Twenty-ninth Avenue, the man would get behind you and trail you. You see, they knew my car. The man would give me tickets and say I ran a stop sign. I' ; m looking right at him sitting in Bruno' ; s. You see Bruno' ; s used to be on Twenty-fifth Street and Twenty-ninth Avenue in that little burnt building. And he used to have a three-wheel motorcycle sitting right in the door. You could look right in his face and you pull right up to the stop sign. Now, I' ; d look like a fool running a stop sign, looking in the police' ; s face, but he would still give me a ticket. ' ; Boy, you run that stop sign.' ; I said, ' ; No, sir.' ; ' ; I' ; m a liar then.' ; I said, ' ; Well, I didn' ; t run the sign.' ; He said, ' ; Well, I' ; m going to give you a so-and-so ticket anyway.' ; He would give me a ticket for running a stop sign. I' ; d pay it, but that' ; s what you had to pay. That' ; s the price you pay for freedom. The man followed me one day. They had it set up good from Shuttlesworth' ; s church all the way past where this policeman sat. When I turned on Twenty-fourth Street-- It' ; s a Southern Amacite Company. They make this amacite what you put down floor tile. It' ; s like concrete but they call it amacite. It' ; s finer ground. But, anyway, it' ; s a watchman sit there in a little shack and they stop you right there at the shack and the watchman come out there with a shotgun. All of that is to intimidate you, like they' ; re dangerous and ready to kill you. Police would draw his gun and search you. They had searched me many times. The watchman is right up with them. But, now, a lot of these companies didn' ; t know their employees was participating in that kind of stuff. They used their own authority. When the big man over the mountain sleep-- See, a lot of rich folk didn' ; t even know that the folks was being treated that bad and, then, a lot of them had the same idea. But, that' ; s just the way it went. I was stopped one night. The first night we had the mass meeting at Sixth Avenue Baptist. Sixth Avenue Baptist was sitting right where Cooper Green Hospital is. I had a brand new [19]66 Buick and my old man and my wife and his wife and another person, there were five of us in the car. After the mass meeting, we walked down on Fifth Avenue. There were so many people at the mass meeting that you couldn' ; t get a parking space on Sixth Avenue, but we walked down to the car and got in the car. As soon as we got in the car, before I could crank the car up good, I turned the key and just as soon as it started, the police pulled up on a motorcycle right up alongside of me. He said, ' ; Gimme' ; your driver' ; s license.' ; I got my driver' ; s license out. ' ; Your lights are too bright.' ; He wrote me a ticket up for bright lights and I hadn' ; t even cut my lights on, but I had to pay that ticket. But that was the price we had to pay. And, a lot of folks, their eyes come open. You see, Wallace is paying the price for keeping folks from having their freedom. You see, God don' ; t let you by. He said, ' ; Let the wheat and the tares grow together.' ; You see, that' ; s the reason when a man treats you wrong, you don' ; t kill him. You forgive him. The boss man got the payroll and he is going to pay off. HUNTLEY: You had mentioned to me that your wife drove. JOHNSON: Yes, my wife used to drive. HUNTLEY: But she doesn' ; t drive now? Why did she stop driving? JOHNSON: She stopped driving when we saw the police intimidating Black women and she couldn' ; t stand it. She said, ' ; Y' ; all talk about non-violence and I hear Reverend Shuttlesworth and Dr. King say slap you on one cheek and turn the other.' ; She said, ' ; I read it in the book [Bible], but I couldn' ; t stand it.' ; She said, ' ; If somebody snatch me out of my car and hit me across the head, if I don' ; t have nothing, I' ; m going to grab them and bite them. I ain' ; t going to drive any more, because if somebody treat me like that, they would have me to kill. I can' ; t stand that.' ; HUNTLEY: So she never drove since? JOHNSON: She said, ' ; I ain' ; t driving no more,' ; and she hadn' ; t drove since. That was in [19]63. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of? JOHNSON: At that time, I joined-- I was a Macedonian. But, when I bought on Second Avenue next door to a church and they treated me with so much hospitality and just kept inviting me, and then the preacher asked me to join, I just joined. My wife wanted me to stay where I was, but she said I was stepping down in a little church. I told her you can serve a little church better than you can a big one. So I joined Mount Calvary. HUNTLEY: Was your church actively involved with the movement? JOHNSON: Later on. At first, they did like the other churches. The preacher said, ' ; The folks didn' ; t want the movement here,' ; and ' ; I ain' ; t going to let it come,' ; but when he left and we got a good country preacher there... HUNTLEY: Who was the one who came in? JOHNSON: Prince Jenkins. He is as country as watermelon, but he is real spiritual and he' ; s a young man who was interested in freedom. He asked me, ' ; Johnson, how come you don' ; t get the movement to come to our church?' ; I said, ' ; If the folks would accept it. The pastor before you, him and five or six folks that he catered to, they said they didn' ; t want the movement here and they didn' ; t let it come.' ; He said, ' ; I want it and I' ; m going to talk about it today.' ; He got up and he said how much good the Alabama Christian Movement was doing and he wanted them to come to the church. He said, ' ; As soon as I can get them to come, I' ; m going to invite them whenever they get ready.' ; He said, ' ; I' ; m letting y' ; all know now. The Movement is coming.' ; HUNTLEY: This is after the [19]63 demonstration? JOHNSON: Yes, that was about ' ; 67, ' ; 68 or ' ; 69. But, anyway, we started meeting at our church. I told the secretary, which was Miss Georgia Price, and she talked to Reverend Garner. They were the two that selected the places to go. Then they started to come to our church. HUNTLEY: What was the reaction of your father and your wife to your being so active in the movement? JOHNSON: Oh, my old man, he-- That just suited him fine. My wife never did kick on. Of course, she went to all the mass meetings. She was right up in it just like I was. But, she just wasn' ; t active as I was. But she went to all the meetings. Just about every Monday night, if she wasn' ; t sick, she was there, and she hasn' ; t been sick that much to my knowing. HUNTLEY: Mr. Johnson, I know we can spend another two hours and I think we are going to have to do that because you have so much to say. But let me just ask you if there is anything that you have not stated that you would like to end on today. But, now, we are not ending, because I' ; m going to do this with you again because there are a number of issues that are vitally important and we really just touched them. JOHNSON: Well now, I' ; m going to give you the high part. What-- Really, one of my really top motivations was Fred Shuttlesworth. He could explain God' ; s idea of freedom so well that it would just take away the fear from your heart. And, the confidence that he had in the Lord God-- And he could really explain it. And he did. One of his sayings was, ' ; If I was in an airplane without a parachute and God told me to jump, I wouldn' ; t ask him no questions. I' ; d jump.' ; When he would make those statements, the spirit would be very high before. He knows when to make them and it was touching. And he motivated the folks until we started to have some more mass meetings. You see, that' ; s the only way you get your information and that' ; s the only way to touch the folks. A lot of folks, a lot of preachers, are afraid to preach the truth. They are afraid they would get hungry. You' ; d be surprised. In a lot of churches, even in the White church, if the preacher tells the truth, he had to go. A lot of folks can' ; t stand the truth. So, the Bible says the truth would make you free. So that' ; s what makes a lot of folks not free, because they don' ; t hear the truth. HUNTLEY: Let me just ask you just one final question in relation to Reverend Shuttlesworth. We know that he' ; s a courageous individual and all those things we heard about him. You can say that he was really attempting to give his life for the movement and that we realize. There were some who criticized him, who said that he was a dictator and he thought that it was his movement. As a person who worked very closely with him, how would you react to that? JOHNSON: Well, you see, somebody got to lead and he was a leader. You can' ; t have but one head. A lot of folks, after Shuttlesworth knocked down the big trees, the big oaks, out the way, then everybody wanted to lead, especially the ones with the ego. When a man got an ego, he wants the office without work. In other words, there is a lot of labor in it, a lot of sacrifice, and a lot of folks wouldn' ; t have done what Shuttlesworth done. I' ; ve seen Shuttlesworth--And I' ; m not going to drop the fault on nobody. I' ; m just going to lay it out there--I' ; ve seen him go out when a lot of folks was in jail, when you needed money. He would go to New York, California and all over the United States to preach and come back and put that money in the Movement and he didn' ; t have nothing. A poor boy a long way from home. And I heard other preachers tell him, ' ; Fred, I wouldn' ; t put all that money in the Movement. You preached and that' ; s your money.' ; He' ; d say, ' ; No, I preached in the name of the Movement. I was representing the Movement and I' ; m putting this money in there.' ; But, you see, that was God' ; s program. What the other fellows was showing me, if they were the head of it, they would take as much of the money that they wanted to. Now he didn' ; t have nothing. But, see, God paid him later. He rewarded him later. He' ; s in good shape now and he got it honest. You see, when you don' ; t get it honest, you can' ; t keep it. He got it and he keeping it. HUNTLEY: Okay, well, we certainly appreciate your time and I would like to just say that I want to do this again, because there are a number of issues. There' ; s a labor issue that we need to deal with and there are other issues within the Movement that I' ; d like to hear about as well. JOHNSON: Whenever you get ready, no problem. HUNTLEY: Thank you, sir. 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Dublin Core
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Title
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Colonel Stone Johnson
Description
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Colonel Stone Johnson discusses being one of Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth's bodyguards, fighting workplace discrimination and serving on many local organizations and boards, including the BCRI.
Identifier
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19950106J
Subject
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Ku Klux Klan (1915- )
Police brutality--United States
Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights
Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011
Date
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1995-01-06
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video