6 20 102 https://bcriohp.org/files/original/875f279eaa2d9de0f6d08f96314c52ea.jpg 9b9f0d62b302a758ca7229f48843fd7f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed LaVerne Revis Martin OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=LMMartin1996.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Birmingham (Ala.) OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.3 July 17, 1996 LaVerne Revis Martin Interviewed on July 17, 1996 1960717M 0:32:49 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Laura Benton African Americans--Civil rights Mass Meetings Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.) LaVerne Revis Martin Horace Huntley Video 1:|24(7)|52(4)|72(10)|95(6)|123(3)|142(8)|175(4)|198(7)|215(6)|234(8)|251(9)|275(2)|295(4)|319(2)|340(6)|358(4)|385(5)|401(2)|414(14)|427(6)|445(6)|461(5)|473(12)|484(11)|507(10)|526(2)|535(9)|555(10)|576(5)|593(10)|612(6) 0 https://youtu.be/pOqDhxBJR18 YouTube video English 63 Introduction to the Interview This is an interview with Mrs. LaVerne Revis Martin for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement Historical interview 33.516200, -86.813870 18 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org The homepage of the BCRI 85 Personal Background Information I would like to start by asking you a couple of general questions about your background. Were your mother and father from Alabama? Martin describes where her family grew up in Mississippi and their transition to Alabama. She describes how many siblings she had. She talks about growing up in the Collegeville neighborhood of Birmingham, Alabama, and going to school at Hudson Elementary School. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Meridian (Miss.) ; Mississippi ; Sumter County (Ala.) Background information ; Personal narratives 33.556803, -86.805719 17 Collegeville, Birmingham, Alabama Hudson Elementary School 180 Connection to Shelley Stewart Shelley Stewart went to Hudson. Martin describes her relationship to Shelley Stewart as school friends at Hudson Elementary School. She describes his connection to Bethel Baptist Church. Bethel Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Hudson Elementary School ; Stewart, Shelley, 1934- Stewart, Shelley, 1934- 33.556803, -86.805719 17 Hudson Elementary School Collegeville, Birmingham, Alabama 33.551662, -86.801935 17 Bethel Baptist Church Birmingham, Alabama 204 The Community of Collegeville (Birmingham, Ala.) In growing up in Collegeville, what kind of community was that? Martin provides a brief description of the community of Collegeville. She describes the major occupations held by people who lived in the area. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Collegeville Collegeville 33.551429, -86.804741 17 Collegeville, Birmingham, Alabama 247 Family Work &amp ; Educational Background What type of work did your mother do? Martin describes her mother and father's occupation. Her mother worked and owned Social Cleaners. Her father worked at U.S. Pipe and Foundry. Her grandmother owned a café. She talks about her mother's education at Parker Industrial High School. Martin talks about her educational journey from Hudson Elementary to the Annex and then to Parker High School. After high school, she attended State Vocational Trade School. Martin talks about getting married and raising children and grandchildren. She describes growing up in the area near Bethel Baptist church. 21st century entrepreneur ; American woman entrepreneur American family 33.539795, -86.875216 17 U.S. Pipe and Foundry Co. Birmingham, Alabama 33.515689, -86.829499 17 A.H. Parker High School Birmingham, Alabama 33.556696, -86.805719 17 Hudson Elementary School Collegeville, Birmingham, Alabama 33.551679, -86.801994 17 Bethel Baptist Church Birmingham, Alabama 420 Father's Role as an Activist in the Movement And, your father was actively involved in the Movement. How was he affiliated? Martin describes her father's role as Executive Board Member of the Alabama Christian Movement for Civil Rights. She describes his role as President of the Park and Recreation Board for Collegeville. He was an activist in the march from Selma to Montgomery, Alabama. African Americans--Civil rights ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Civil rights movement ; Civil rights movements--Southern States--History--20th century ; Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) African Americans--Civil rights ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Civil rights ; Civil Rights Activist 32.405496, -87.018397 17 Selma, Alabama 525 Bethel Baptist Church Bombings Let's back up just a bit, because a lot took place before 1965. You, now living so close to the church, the church was bombed on several occasions, were you a witness to any of that activity? Martin describes the scene of the second bombing on the Bethel Baptist Church and seeing it go off from her porch. She talks about the men who were guarding the church that night ; John L. Lewis and Colonel Johnson. Bethel Bapist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Church Bombings ; Johnson, Colonel Stone, 1918- ; Lewis, John L. Church bombings ; Civil rights movement 33.551521, -86.801957 17 Bethel Baptist Church Birmingham, Alabama 704 Mass Meetings I assume you attended mass meetings? Martin describes the mass meetings that were often held at different churches. Her father, two sisters and a brother attended the meetings every Monday evening. The meetings were guarded. African Americans--Civil rights--History ; African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Mass Meetings Mass Meetings 759 Demonstrations &amp ; Sit-ins at Woolworth's Lunch Counter and Newberry's Did you participate in the demonstrations? Martin talks about her experience in a non-violent demonstration at Woolworth's Lunch Counter. She took part in a demonstration at a Baptist church on 26th Street in Birmingham. She also was involved in a sit-in at Newberry's Department Store. No arrests were made from these non-violent demonstrations. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Civil rights demonstrations--United States African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Civil rights demonstrations--United States 33.514897, -86.809486 17 Woolworth's Department Store Birmingham, Alabama 33.514944, -86.808395 17 Newberry's Department Store Birmingham, Alabama 912 The Mass Marches and Demonstrations in 1963 Were you ever involved in any of the mass marches during the '63 demonstrations from the church? Martin talks about her involvement in the mass marches that took place in 1963. She talks about growing up next to Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth. She describes her experience marching with a group of twenty to a segregated church and being turned away by a white spokesman. Civil rights demonstrations ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Civil rights demonstrations--United States ; Marches Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama 1061 Arrest of Family and Friends What other activities were you involved in that relates to the Movement? Martin witnessed the arrest of her father and her sister, Robbie Smith. She was at 16th Street Baptist Church the day the bombs went off but no arrests were made that day. Arrest ; Arrest--United States ; Civil rights ; Civil rights movement Arrest--United States ; Civil rights movement 33.516778, -86.814978 17 16th Street Baptist Church Birmingham, Alabama 1087 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing and March for Voting Rights But, as far as when the girls were bombed at 16th Street, Denise McNair, her parents were affiliated with the cleaners that my mother was affiliated with. Martin describes her connection to Denise McNair, one of the victims of the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing. She describes the funeral that took place at 6th Avenue Baptist church. She attended the march from Selma to Montgomery for voting rights. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; funeral ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Selma (Ala.) ; Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) ; United States. Voting Rights Act of 1965 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) ; United States. Voting Rights Act of 1965 33.516778, -86.814978 17 16th Street Baptist Church Birmingham, Alabama 32.271089, -86.728120 17 Selma to Montgomery National Historical Trail https://16thstreetbaptist.org/ The homepage of 16th Street Baptist Church 1163 Personal Impact of Experiences As you look back on those experiences, how do you think they impacted upon your life? Martin describes the difference she saw over time in racial relations and the success of the African American community coming out of Collegeville. She talks about how the movement put her in the position to oversee white and black employees in her work. Collegeville ; Experience ; Impact Civil rights movement 33.551907, -86.805106 17 Collegeville, Birmingham, Alabama 1226 Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth I was there once when Rev. Shuttlesworth, you know the school bus came down with his kids, and I went out and told him that they didn't even let the kids out in front of the house. Martin describes a school bus driver's act of prejudice toward Fred Shuttlesworth. She describes Fred Shuttlesworth as a courageous man and a good minister and preacher. She describes growing up next to the Shuttlesworth family and having a support group of people involved in the Movement. Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1420 Key People Involved in the Movement Who are some of the other people that stand out in your mind that were active during the Movement days? Martin lists key people who played a role in the Civil Rights Movement. She talks about how many people were too afraid to join in the Movement and would not let their children be a part of it. She describes how her parents were a part of the mass meetings and allowed her to take part in the Movement. Her father served as one of the guards for the mass meetings. The guards at the meetings were all unarmed. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Brooks, Dester ; Civil rights movement ; Clark, Virginia ; Eden, Minnie ; Gardner, Rev. ; Mass meetings ; Range, Julia ; Roberson, Mac ; White, Frances Foster Civil rights movement 1572 Incident with Bull Connor What would you do if you saw someone doing something? Martin describes an incident after the Bethel church bombing in which she saw Bull Connor on the railroad tracks in her neighborhood. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Connor, Bull Connor, Bull 1607 Interrogation after the 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing You had mentioned that after the bombing the police came to interrogate you. What was that about? Martin described how she was interrogated by the Birmingham Police Department as a suspect in the planting of the bomb at 16th Street Baptist church. She and her boss, Mr. Lomax, were interrogated and forced to take the lie detector test. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; police interrogation 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 33.516762, -86.814976 17 16th Street Baptist Church Birmingham, Alabama 1811 The Birmingham Police Department In many cities, there's a slogan on police cars &quot ; We're here to protect and serve.&quot ; Would you look at the Birmingham Police Department as being there for that purpose? Martin expresses her lack of trust in the Birmingham Police Department during the Movement. She describes a couple of intense experiences involving policemen targeting her and being vulgar towards her. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 1915 Shelley Stewart's Role in the Movement What role did Shelley play in the Movement? Martin describes Shelley Stewarts role in the movement as a radio figure. He played a key role in letting the community know where meetings were going to be held. Civil rights movement ; Stewart, Shelley, 1934- Stewart, Shelley, 1934- 1949 Closing Comments in the Interview Mrs. Martin, I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule. Closing comments in the interview. Oral History LaVerne Revis Martin discusses her involvement in the Movement with her family. She witnessed bombings, attended mass meetings and demonstrated alongside key figures including Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. LaVerne Revis Martin for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is July 17, 1996. Thank you, Mrs. Martin for taking time out of your schedule to sit and talk with us today about the Movement. MARTIN: Thanks for inviting me. HUNTLEY: I would like to start by asking you a couple of general questions about your background. Were your mother and father from Alabama? MARTIN: My father was from Mississippi and my mother was from Birmingham, Alabama. HUNTLEY: What part of Mississippi did he come from? MARTIN: Meridian. HUNTLEY: He moved from Meridian? MARTIN: Yes, he moved to Sumter County [Alabama] and from Sumter County to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Birmingham? MARTIN: I was born and raised in Birmingham in Collegeville. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? MARTIN: I have six sisters and one brother. HUNTLEY: Where do you fit in the family? MARTIN: I&#039 ; m the baby girl. There&#039 ; s one boy, he&#039 ; s the baby of all. HUNTLEY: So you had a lot of people who gave you orders then. MARTIN: That&#039 ; s right, everybody did. HUNTLEY: You said you were raised up in Collegeville. MARTIN: I sure was. HUNTLEY: What elementary school did you start first grade? MARTIN: I went to Hudson. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Hudson Elementary School? MARTIN: It was fun. Everybody in the neighborhood was there. There was no busing at the time so we knew everybody because we all lived in the community. It was a neighborhood school. HUNTLEY: Shelley Stewart went to Hudson. MARTIN: He did. And, he also attended Bethel Church when we were growing up. HUNTLEY: So you knew him? MARTIN: Yes, I knew him personally. HUNTLEY: So you probably remember when he first started on the air? MARTIN: Yes, I remember everything about Shelley. We&#039 ; re friends. HUNTLEY: In growing up in Collegeville, what kind of community was that? MARTIN: Well, it was a nice community. It was very nice and very quiet. It was mostly single homes. That was before the times of the projects. It was homes everywhere until they tore them down and built the projects. HUNTLEY: What kinds of occupations did people have that lived in Collegeville? MARTIN: There were mostly a lot of school teachers and nurses. HUNTLEY: What type of work did your mother do? MARTIN: My mother owned a cleaners, Social Cleaners. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your father do? MARTIN: My father worked at U. S. Pipe and Foundry. HUNTLEY: How much education did they have? MARTIN: Well, my mother finished Parker Industrial High School and my father stopped at the 4th grade. He stopped to help take care of the family. HUNTLEY: So your mother&#039 ; s business became a family business, did you work there? MARTIN: Everyday. Just no pay. And, my mother had the cleaners and my grandmother had a business, so it was always something for us to do. We grew up working with the public. HUNTLEY: What kind of business did your grandmother have? MARTIN: They had a little cafe. HUNTLEY: So you were surrounded by entrepreneurs? MARTIN: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: You left Hudson and went to Parker, is that right? MARTIN: I went to the Annex, and, then to Parker. HUNTLEY: What was the Annex? MARTIN: It was little houses where we had school. HUNTLEY: Was that because of the number of students you had at Parker? MARTIN: Right. Everybody had to go to Parker. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Parker? MARTIN: Well, I remember a lot of things. I was in the choir and also, just once I remember being the most popular queen of the high school. So, that was a highlight in my day. I took business, sewing, dress making and designing. That was something I loved to do. HUNTLEY: Did you use that in your mother&#039 ; s business after you finished or while you were going to school? MARTIN: I did a lot of sewing in the neighborhood. And, sometime I did do a little repair. HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school? MARTIN: I went to State Vocational Trade School. My daddy told me I had to go to school or get a job. So I decided to go out to State Vocational Trade School and further my education in dressmaking and designing. After that I got married. HUNTLEY: And started your family. MARTIN: Yes. I have four children. Two boys and two girls. HUNTLEY: Grandchildren? MARTIN: I have 12. HUNTLEY: In the area that you lived, where was Bethel Baptist Church? MARTIN: Right across the street on the corner. HUNTLEY: And, your father was actively involved in the Movement. How was he affiliated? MARTIN: He was on the Executive Board in the Movement. HUNTLEY: Of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights? MARTIN: Yes, that&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: So, is he one of those individuals that initiated or help to start the organization? MARTIN: He sure did. HUNTLEY: So that meant that you had no alternative but to be involved. MARTIN: No. My father was totally involved in the Movement. And, from living in Collegeville he was the President of the Park and Recreation Board, so we were all raised in the park. HUNTLEY: He was President of the Park and Recreation Board? MARTIN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Was that a board in Collegeville? MARTIN: That was the one park that we had in Collegeville. HUNTLEY: Okay. He was the director of that particular park. MARTIN: Yes, he was. HUNTLEY: So your family, it would seem, would be one that was looked up to by others in the neighborhood. MARTIN: They were well known. Everybody out there knew him. HUNTLEY: So he was known as an activist. MARTIN: He was. Even when he retired he went into the cleaners business. He helped my mother pick up clothes all over the neighborhood and everything. HUNTLEY: What other kinds of activities was he involved in with the Movement? MARTIN: Well, he was there for all the planning committees and all the programs that were set up. We went to march in Montgomery. He and I went together. HUNTLEY: This was the march from Selma to Montgomery? MARTIN: Yes. We went on the bus from Birmingham, and, then we marched after we got to Montgomery. HUNTLEY: Let&#039 ; s back up just a bit, because a lot took place before 1965. You, now living so close to the church, the church was bombed on several occasions, were you a witness to any of that activity? MARTIN: Well, the first bombing I was living in Chicago and I discovered the bomb before it went off when John L. Lewis moved the bomb. I alerted them when I was coming home from work. Allen Lomax was my boss and he brought me home. As he went to put me out I saw all this smoke up in the corner on the side of the church. Of course, I was away the first time so I was always looking for that bomb. My parents had a little room that they closed out on the front of the porch just so the guards would be able to watch. And, I alerted them and I went around to the back. HUNTLEY: So this is the second bombing, right? MARTIN: Yes. HUNTLEY: What year was that? The first one was in &#039 ; 56. MARTIN: I&#039 ; m not exactly sure. HUNTLEY: Was this at night when you came home? MARTIN: It was at night. It was like before day in the morning. Nobody was sitting on the front in that little room that my dad had built for them. They were around on the back that&#039 ; s why they missed it. So I went around there and told them it was a bomb out there. HUNTLEY: Do you remember the men that were guarding that night? MARTIN: I don&#039 ; t know exactly who was out there, but John L. Lewis, which is known as Will Hall, and Colonel Johnson came out and they went toward the bomb. I was standing on the porch and John L. Lewis lifted that bomb up and put it in the street. Colonel Johnson was right behind him, but John L. picked it up by himself and put it in the street. It went off and made a big hole in the middle of the street. HUNTLEY: Did you see it when it actually went off? MARTIN: Yes, I saw it. I was running across the back and was out on the front porch. My parents and my children were inside. HUNTLEY: Were there any injuries? MARTIN: My daughter, Kimberly was a baby at the time, and she was laying on the bed and glass was just around her. She has a cut on her forehead that resulted from that. So, when I looked around I tried to find her and I couldn&#039 ; t find her. One of the neighbors had carried her to the hospital. I went from hospital to hospital trying to find my baby. But they stitched her up and everything but she has that scar. HUNTLEY: I assume you attended mass meetings? MARTIN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you describe what a mass meeting was like? MARTIN: It was just something that you&#039 ; ll never forget. We would always sing We Shall Overcome, and a minister would be from different churches. There were times when we would go from church to church to the meetings. It was always somebody out there guarding, trying to keep us alive, but they were fun. HUNTLEY: Did you go on a regular basis? MARTIN: I went every Monday. HUNTLEY: How did you get there? MARTIN: My daddy. He was always there. HUNTLEY: Were other brothers and sisters involved, as well? MARTIN: My sister Robbie Revis Smith and my brother, James Revis. My sister, Alfreda(Inaudible). We all went to the meetings. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in the demonstrations? MARTIN: Yes, I did. HUNTLEY: What was it like participating in the demonstrations? MARTIN: Well, I went to Woolworth&#039 ; s and sat at the lunch counters. And, it just so happened I was there when there was a White gentleman that coughed and spat in the man&#039 ; s face that was next to me. I was real glad it wasn&#039 ; t me, because I knew I wasn&#039 ; t non-violent. Also, I went to a Baptist church that was over on 26th Street. HUNTLEY: Before you go to that. Tell me about the experience at the sit-in. You said a man spat in the face of Black man that was sitting there? MARTIN: Right. HUNTLEY: What happened? MARTIN: He smiled at him. He didn&#039 ; t do anything. He was non-violent. He did what we were supposed to do. HUNTLEY: Are you suggesting that you&#039 ; re glad that it was him because you don&#039 ; t know that you could have been non-violent in that case? MARTIN: I don&#039 ; t know. I would have hoped that I could have been. But, he did the right thing. HUNTLEY: How many of you were sitting in that day? MARTIN: I imagine about 10. HUNTLEY: Did they close the restaurant? MARTIN: No. HUNTLEY: Did they serve you? MARTIN: They served us. They didn&#039 ; t want to serve us, but at that time they did serve us. He just didn&#039 ; t want to be sitting beside us. HUNTLEY: So there were no arrests? MARTIN: There were no arrests made. HUNTLEY: How did you prepare for that sit-in? Was there any instructions given at the mass meeting or after the mass meeting or just prior to going? How did that all transpire? MARTIN: Well, they prepared us. We already knew that we were non-violent. So, there were different groups going different places and, it just so happened that my group went to Woolworth&#039 ; s. We were going in different directions. That was just one of my experiences. Like sitting in lunch counters, and, then on Sunday, they did a thing for churches, different churches. HUNTLEY: Did you sit at lunch counters more than that one time? MARTIN: Yes, I did. I sat-in at Newberry&#039 ; s but no incident. That was the only one that had an incident. HUNTLEY: Were you ever involved in any of the mass marches during the &#039 ; 63 demonstrations from the church? MARTIN: I was always in the marches. HUNTLEY: What was that experience like? MARTIN: It was an experience. I grew up next door to Rev. Shuttlesworth. Even with my father and Rev. Shuttlesworth, I just knew I had to do what I had to do. And, I knew what was right to do and what I believed in, and I had no problem doing that because I knew there would be a change. We had to make the difference. It was what I needed to do. HUNTLEY: Now, you mentioned another event that you were involved in where the churches were concerned, can you describe that? What was that about? MARTIN: One Sunday morning we were supposed to be going to 11:00 o&#039 ; clock service and when we got up the steps, there was a White gentleman that came to the door and he was well dressed. We were well dressed, too. So, he said that, &quot ; We segegated here.&quot ; He couldn&#039 ; t even pronounce the word and he wouldn&#039 ; t let us in. So we didn&#039 ; t do anything. We just turned around and left. That&#039 ; s the way we were instructed to do. HUNTLEY: How many of you participated in that? MARTIN: It was approximately about 20 that went to that particular church. HUNTLEY: He was the only White person that came to the door? MARTIN: He was the spokesman for the group. HUNTLEY: Do you remember how many men and how many women were with you? MARTIN: I don&#039 ; t know just to break it up, but I&#039 ; d say it was about 20 of us that went. HUNTLEY: But it was both male and female? MARTIN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you attempt to go to other churches? MARTIN: We were just assigned to that one church for that day. HUNTLEY: Do you remember the name of the church? MARTIN: It was right next to Carraway Hospital and it was that big church on the corner. HUNTLEY: On 26th Street? MARTIN: Yes. HUNTLEY: So there was no incident? MARTIN: No. We left. We were trained to do that? HUNTLEY: What other activities were you involved in that relates to the Movement? MARTIN: Well, I was there when everybody went to jail. My father went to jail. And, my sister went, Robbie Smith. I was there at 16th Church. It just so happened that I didn&#039 ; t get arrested. Not that I wasn&#039 ; t there, in the way, but I didn&#039 ; t get arrested that particular day. But, as far as when the girls were bombed at 16th Street, Denise McNair, her parents were affiliated with the cleaners that my mother was affiliated with. They did the cleaning for her. So that was Mr. Pippens granddaughter, so I knew her personally. I attended that funeral and somehow my picture got on the front page coming down the steps. HUNTLEY: What was it like attending the funeral? MARTIN: It was hard. It was just awesome. It was something that you won&#039 ; t ever forget. HUNTLEY: Where was the funeral held? MARTIN: They had it on 6th Avenue. HUNTLEY: 6th Avenue Baptist on the south side? MARTIN: Yes. HUNTLEY: So you also attended the march from Selma to Montgomery for voting rights. MARTIN: Right. HUNTLEY: As you look back on those experiences, how do you think they impacted upon your life? MARTIN: Well, I think that those are experiences that I&#039 ; ll never forget. It makes a difference when I see someone in a great position. I felt good when I had my office and employees, both Black and White, working under me in different capacities at different times in my life. I&#039 ; ve been in management a lot. But, it made me feel good to know that had we not marched, had we not done all those things, we would never have gotten to be in the positions we were in. Out of Collegeville, there are doctors and lawyers and everything. So, it made a big impact. It also gave us the responsibility to know that we had to make it. We made a difference. I was there once when Rev. Shuttlesworth, you know the school bus came down with his kids, and I went out and told him that they didn&#039 ; t even let the kids out in front of the house. The bus just passed his house and went all around the corner. So, he got in his car, went around by Hudson School and stopped the bus. He turned him around and made him take the kids back home. That was just something to see. HUNTLEY: This was when his children were going where? MARTIN: They were coming from Parker. HUNTLEY: And they were riding the &#039 ; special&#039 ; ? MARTIN: Exactly. HUNTLEY: What did that experience mean to you? MARTIN: It meant that he was in control. It meant that he was in control and it was so wrong for them not to let them out at their house. That was just being prejudiced and that&#039 ; s what we were trying to get away from. HUNTLEY: How would you describe Fred Shuttlesworth? MARTIN: I would describe him as the bravest person I know in all walks of life. I would say that he had courage to do anything and everything. If he made up his mind that he was going to do it, he did just that. As a pastor, he was very good. He was a good minister and preacher. He went out a lot but he would think of home and be back there. I remember the experience when he and his wife was beaten up at Phillips High School. And, then that&#039 ; s the school my children attended. I worked hard at that PTA and Band Booster Club and stuff like that. HUNTLEY: In 1957 you couldn&#039 ; t go there. MARTIN: Right. You couldn&#039 ; t even go. HUNTLEY: How well did you know his children? MARTIN: They lived next door. I still know them well. We&#039 ; re still friends. HUNTLEY: Those relationships that developed during the struggle, do you ever get together with any of those people that may have left here and may return periodically? MARTIN: Yes, the Shuttlesworths were here a few weeks ago. I always hear from them and see them. There are a lot of people from the Movement, like Clio Kennedy and Gay and just all of them, we still know each other and we&#039 ; re still friends. HUNTLEY: Are there ever efforts to get everybody together to reminisce over old times? MARTIN: We haven&#039 ; t had just a plain gathering or reunion. But there are times that things come up that the Movement people are there. HUNTLEY: Who are some of the other people that stand out in your mind that were active during the Movement days? MARTIN: I used to go down to meetings, Julia Range, she worked as the secretary of the Movement and Dester Brooks always worked on the executive committee. She had a floral shop here. And, Rev. Gardner of course and the choir. Mr. Mac Roberson. A lot of people in Collegeville were faithful until they died. There were a lot of people in our neighborhood that went to jail--Frances Foster White, Virginia Clark and different ones like that. HUNTLEY: Were most people that were members of your church and the community involved in the Movement? MARTIN: There were a lot of people so scared. They were so afraid and they wouldn&#039 ; t come that way. Their parents were afraid and they didn&#039 ; t allow, even the children that wanted to they didn&#039 ; t allow them to participate. There were a lot of people even now saying they were a part of it and they were nowhere around. A lot of parents didn&#039 ; t allow their children to go. But, I was fortunate. My parents were involved, so I didn&#039 ; t have that problem. HUNTLEY: Did your mother attend the meetings, as well? MARTIN: My mother didn&#039 ; t attend the meetings. My mother was like a (Inaudible) person. She was always there with the babies and lending a helping hand with her business, but she did not attend the meetings. She was supportive of the meetings. HUNTLEY: Your father also served as one of the guards. Did he ever guard for the churches or the homes? MARTIN: Yes, he sat out there and guarded during a shift. I took turns and I guarded my shift, too. HUNTLEY: Oh, you used to guard as well? MARTIN: I used to guard. I&#039 ; d sit right out there with them, sure. HUNTLEY: Were you all armed? MARTIN: Dester Brooks used to come out there and guard, and Miss Minnie Eden, different ones like that would come out there and sit. HUNTLEY: Was anyone armed at the time? MARTIN: No. HUNTLEY: What would you do if you saw someone doing something? MARTIN: Well, we would try to alert the police department that was there. I know after that bomb that I discovered, Bull Connor was on the railroad tracks coming from the back, so he was in our neighborhood before day in the morning for some reason. But, I would think that if we called for help, that&#039 ; s basically all we could do. We were supposed to be non- violent. HUNTLEY: You had mentioned that after the bombing the police came to interrogate you. What was that about? MARTIN: After I discovered the bomb and it went off, I was just horrified. The police came and they wanted to insist that I go down and take a lie detector test because they said that I must have planted the bomb, put the bomb out there. That&#039 ; s when my daddy was very outspoken, very firm. When he spoke, you listened. He told them that I was not going down there that night. He said, &quot ; You see the shape she&#039 ; s in, she&#039 ; s upset.&quot ; He said, &quot ; We&#039 ; ll think about it and if I decide, she&#039 ; ll come down tomorrow.&quot ; I went down and took the lie detector test the next day. They put me through an ordeal. They asked me a lot of questions. But they were really trying to say that I planted the bomb and also, Mr. Lomax, they were saying that we must have put the bomb out there ourselves. It was in a five-gallon can and the bomb was down in there. But, I passed the test. HUNTLEY: What kind of questions did they ask you? MARTIN: It was all kinds of questions. They wanted to know our background. And, then they went on to ask over and over did we put the bomb out there and what did we do afterwards. Just exactly, word for word. But, I told them for sure I didn&#039 ; t put the bomb out there. HUNTLEY: Were you the only one that took the lie detector test? MARTIN: Mr. Lomax, my boss. He brought me home so he had to take it, too. HUNTLEY: Where were you working at the time? MARTIN: I was working for a little restaurant. I was the manager. He had to bring me home. They had the little small cafes then. That&#039 ; s what it was. HUNTLEY: Where was that located? MARTIN: It was in Collegeville. It was near where Carver High School is now. But, it wasn&#039 ; t there then. HUNTLEY: We&#039 ; ve covered a lot of territory. Is there anything else that you would like to share with us that relate to the Movement or to you personally? MARTIN: I would like to say that after one of the bombings, not that one in particular, my sister, Alfreda, she was trying to come to the house to see if my parents were hurt, to see how they were doing and they had almost put us in jail trying to get up to the house. She and her husband tried to get up to the house and they almost went to jail for trying to get up there to see what was going on. HUNTLEY: The police would not allow it? MARTIN: They would not allow us to go that way even though the family was still up there at the house. So Alfreda and Johnny almost went to jail for that. HUNTLEY: Were you at the house? MARTIN: Yes, I was at the house. HUNTLEY: But they were not allowed to get there? MARTIN: Right. They almost went to jail out there. They were very rude out there, acting like we were the enemy. HUNTLEY: In many cities, there&#039 ; s a slogan on police cars &quot ; We&#039 ; re here to protect and serve.&quot ; Would you look at the Birmingham Police Department as being there for that purpose? MARTIN: No. They were not there to protect and serve. Actually, if you saw a police at that particular time and you could out run them, your best bet was to do that because they were actually putting your hands on top of the cars and doing all sorts of things to people at the time. So, they weren&#039 ; t there for that reason. HUNTLEY: Did you ever witness any of the incidents with the police or did anyone ever tell you about something that happened to them personally? MARTIN: Well, the only thing I can say I was stopped once and they had me put my hands over the car. I never drank anything so they couldn&#039 ; t get me with alcohol or anything like that, but they searched me right out there in the street. I didn&#039 ; t have any weapons on me or anything. They talked nasty to me, saying some vulgar things to me, but they did turn me loose. HUNTLEY: Were you alone? MARTIN: Yes. And, once again I was coming down by A. G. Gaston, by the college and one of them got behind me, so I just put my foot on the gas and I ran and circled some little corners that I knew he wouldn&#039 ; t be familiar with and lost him, because I would never get caught out in that predicament again. HUNTLEY: That was at night? MARTIN: That was at night. HUNTLEY: What role did Shelley play in the Movement? MARTIN: He did everything on that radio. He kept everything going. He did a lot of commercials. He told all about where the meetings were going to be for people to get involved. I remember he was always around, even when they named the street after Rev. Shuttlesworth, he was right there in the middle of that, because I was there, too. He&#039 ; s always been around. HUNTLEY: Mrs. Martin, I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule. I know you need to get back to work, so maybe at some later date, we&#039 ; ll be able to do this again. You&#039 ; ve been very helpful. MARTIN: It&#039 ; s been a nice thing to just meet you and to be here. It was such a pleasure. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=LMMartin1996.xml LMMartin1996.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource LaVerne Revis Martin Description An account of the resource LaVerne Revis Martin discusses her involvement in the Movement with her family. She witnessed bombings, attended mass meetings and demonstrated alongside key figures including Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 1960717M Subject The topic of the resource African Americans--Civil rights Mass Meetings Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996-07-17 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/b01a2c79c40b00ef8da93c04bd4b51fd.jpg 3608ec472c85f80520b140e67411e8ee Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Laura Anderson Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bryan Stevenson OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=BStevenson2012.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Poverty OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.3 October 31, 2012 Bryan Stevenson Interviewed on October 31, 2012 20121031S 00:44:21 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Alexandra M. Smith Equal Justice Initiative Incarceration issues Slavery Stevenson, Bryan Poverty Bryan Stevenson Laura Anderson Video 1:|21(12)|32(14)|44(8)|55(5)|70(8)|81(8)|93(8)|105(4)|116(12)|128(7)|141(3)|153(12)|166(1)|179(8)|190(4)|201(6)|212(6)|222(9)|235(4)|249(6)|259(10)|271(9)|286(11)|300(9)|313(6)|325(12)|342(8)|354(12)|366(4)|379(3)|392(4)|403(11)|415(11)|427(12)|438(10)|448(11)|464(3)|482(3)|492(10)|507(6)|522(11)|532(10)|542(9)|560(8) 0 https://youtu.be/Y4dao1vE74U YouTube video English 0 Introduction and Shuttlesworth Award So, I’m really, really honored by this kind of recognition and to receive something in his [Fred Shuttlesworth] name and also in the name of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute, which is an amazing institution. Introduction of the interviews and response to the Fred L. Shuttlesworth Human Rights Award. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Stevenson, Bryan 33.516200, -86.813870 18 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage https://www.bcri.org/annual-shuttlesworth/ Fred L. Shuttlesworth Human Rights Award 38 About the Equal Justice Initiative Sure. We at EJI, we do a lot of work around excessive punishment, around mass incarceration, around abuse of power in the criminal justice system, but we also have a project on race and poverty. Summarizing EJI's work. Mass Incarceration ; Prison Reform Equal Justice Initiative ; Montgomery County (Ala.) ; Stevenson, Bryan 17 https://eji.org/ EJI Homepage 156 Commerce St. and the Slave Trade in Montgomery, AL This street, Commerce St. where so much is happening, is also a place that has a very, very significant history that we're not talking about. That we haven't recognized. The history of the slave trade in the capital of Alabama. Commerce Street Montgomery County (Ala.) ; Slave trade 32.379646, -86.311218 17 Commerce St. in Montgomery, Alabama 301 Four Institutions that Shape African-American Experience Yeah. I'm very interested in recharacterizing the experience of African-Americans in this country through the lens of relationships with institutions. For example, I see four institutions that have shaped the hopes, the aspirations, the dreams of African-Americans in very profound ways. Stevenson lists four institutions that have shaped African-American experience throughout history and in the current era. African American history ; Slavery ; Trauma Healing and Reconciliation Services 17 324 First Institution: Slavery I'm looking at institutions that have been threats, barriers at a full engagement and so the institution of slavery, obviously, would be the first institution. The role of slavery in the African-American experience in the US African American history ; Oppression ; Slavery African American history 17 443 Second Institution: Terror I think the second institution hasn't been defined as an institution but I think it's important to think about it as an institution and that was the institution of terror. The role of terror in the African-American experience in the US. Terror and society African American history 17 529 Third Institution: Jim Crow (Segregation) Third institution was, of course, Jim Crow, segregation. We know a lot more about that because it's more recent, but also because there was resistance. The role of segregation in the African-American experience in the US. African Americans--Segregation African American history 17 698 Fourth Institution: Mass Incarceration I think the fourth institution, because we didn't engage in truth and reconciliation, has emerged in the last 30 years and I believe that's mass incarceration. The role of mass incarceration in the African-American experience in the US. Incarceration issues ; Oppression African American history 17 873 Calendar of African-American Oppression We're about to publish a calendar. It's our first publication in our race and poverty project. It's a calendar that documents the African-American experience but it's not a calendar that celebrates Black achievement. 17 https://calendar.eji.org/racial-injustice/apr/17 EJI Calendar 1163 Mass Incarceration It's an interesting evolution for me. I mean I did start out, really, just working on individual cases with clients and the influence of poverty and the influence of race was so pervasive and all of these individual cases, all of my clients are poor. Stevenson details the factors and obstacles involved in combatting mass incarceration. He also expands on the growth and impact of mass incarceration in the US. Incarceration issues ; Poverty 17 1615 International Racial Justice Work Yeah. Well, it's fascinating. I have done work outside of the US and it's always been an interesting experience for me. Stevenson details his International work in mass incarceration, the death penalty and prison reform. Incarceration issues ; Social justice Equal Justice Initiative 17 1852 Hope I have to be hopeful. I think when you allow yourself to get hopeless about what can be done, you begin to prepare yourself for failure. 17 1957 The Economics of Mass Incarceration The only upside is that it's causing us to reevaluate some of these policies. I think we now realize that we are bankrupting our educational system, people are sending their kids to Auburn and Alabama and other colleges and universities in the state are paying more because we're spending millions of dollars to incarcerate people who are not a threat to public safety. Explanation of the economic system of mass incarceration including the impact on local economy, the role of poverty and racial profiling. Poverty ; Racial profiling in law enforcement Equal Justice Initiative ; Incarceration issues ; Prison-industrial complex 17 2269 The National Work of EJI You know, our work has become more national. Our work with kids was national, most of those cases were done outside the state. The Lee case that went to the US Supreme Court was actually an Alabama case but our work has really been national in that issue. Stevenson breaks down how EJI operates on a national stage. Capital punishment ; Equal Justice Initiative 17 2411 EJI in Alabama There's a part of that analysis which I think is true. I mean I started in Atlanta with the Southern Prisoners Defense Committee. I was doing a lot of work here in Alabama, this is in the mid-'80s, and it was clear to me that Alabama was a state where there were very few resources. The story of how EJI has it's roots and future in the State of Alabama. Alabama ; Incarceration issues Southern Prisoners' Defense Committee 17 Oral History Bryan Stevenson discusses accepting the Fred L. Shuttlesworth Human Rights Award and his work with the Equal Justice Initiative in the state of Alabama, nationally and internationally. STEVENSON: So, I&#039 ; m really, really honored by this kind of recognition and to receive something in his [Fred Shuttlesworth] name and also in the name of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute, which is an amazing institution. Not just in the state, but I think in the country, as a place where people can experience this history which is not as well as understood as I think it needs to be. ANDERSON: Well we&#039 ; re honored that you will accept the Award-- STEVENSON: Well it&#039 ; s my pleasure. ANDERSON: And spend a little time with us today and then come back on Saturday-- STEVENSON: Yes. ANDERSON: Could you tell me more about your employees coming up to the Institution? STEVENSON: Sure. We at the, at EJI [Equal Justice Initiative], we do a lot of work around excessive punishment, around mass incarceration, around abuse of power in the criminal justice system. But we also have a project on race and poverty. And in fact our newest work is really trying to look through the lens of history and to current issues and contemporary policies to try to push for deeper, more meaningful search for the truth, and for the ways in which we have to move forward to deal with this history of inequality and injustice. And the Institute is an amazing resource and place for experiencing some of that history. So every person who comes to work at EJI is required to come to the Institute here in Birmingham and spend several hours going through the exhibits, learning that history. I encourage all of my staff to read the history of the Civil Rights struggle, particularly the local history because some of these places where we are working--in some of these communities where we&#039 ; re dealing with issues that have very strong racial components to them--cannot be adequately understood unless you know this history, which dates back 50 years. 100 years. 150 years. And so we&#039 ; re really interested in how to reevaluate the history of racial inequality ; very interested in that. In fact, one of our newest projects is even looking at the local history where our office is. So my office is on 122 Commerce Street in downtown Montgomery. Montgomery, like sections of Birmingham, is experiencing a little bit of development which everybody is excited about. We have a minor league baseball team now, the Biscuits ; and there&#039 ; re restaurants and hotels that are coming into the downtown area. And I&#039 ; m very pleased about that. I support that. But this street, Commerce Street, where so much is happening, is also a place that has a very, very significant history that we&#039 ; re not talking about, that we haven&#039 ; t recognized. Commerce Street was one of the most active slave trading spaces in America from 1815 until the beginning of the Civil War. And thousands of enslaved people were unloaded at the docks on the Alabama River, about 150 yards to the east of our office, and they were paraded up Commerce Street, chained together in caffolds, and then sold at the square, which is 150 to the west of my office. And it was a huge slave trading space. The Black Belt in this region was largely populated through slave trading in Montgomery. And there is a little, tiny sign that marks the slave auction site ; but other than that, we don&#039 ; t talk about that history. We don&#039 ; t recognize that history. And in this effort to commercialize and celebrate all of the development opportunities, I think there is resistance in confronting that history, and I think we need to confront it. When I walk up that street, I imagine that experience--there were slave depots all over Montgomery. Montgomery was notorious as a place where African-Americans could be resold into slavery. Slave traders didn&#039 ; t have to prove that they&#039 ; d actually bought you legally from some slave owner. So it was a place where many black people would be kidnapped and brought and then sold back into slavery because Montgomery didn&#039 ; t require proof of prior ownership. And there was some other aspects to the slave trade in Montgomery that were deeply troubling. There was no covenant that required that families be sold together. You could separate a family. So that space in Montgomery was a place of tremendous trauma and pain and anguish and great injustice. And we want to talk about that. We want to talk about other aspects of the African-American experience in the state. And that&#039 ; s why we want our staff to be very familiar with the Civil Rights experience and what they could learn here at the Institute is incredibly important toward that end. ANDERSON: When you said that EJI wants to talk about it, do you know yet what that means? STEVENSON: Yeah I&#039 ; m, you know, I&#039 ; m very interested in re-characterizing the experience of African-Americans in this country, through the lens of relationships with institutions. So, for example, I see four institutions that have shaped the hopes, the aspirations, the dreams of African-Americans in very profound ways, and I&#039 ; m looking at institutions that have been threats, barriers, to full engagement. And so the institution of slavery would obviously be the first institution: it&#039 ; s what created so much of the tension and the misinformation and the bias and the presumptions and the prejudice. And in that context, talking about Commerce Street, talking about the way slave trading functioned, talking about the way the dynamics of slavery created something more than a slave society. Many countries had slavery. Europeans had slavery. Throughout all of the world there has been enslavement as a mechanism for economic repayment and as a penalty for war and all of these things. But slavery in most parts of the world represented something very different than it represented in the United States. In the United States, in the Southern United States, because of this racial difference between the people who were enslaved and the people who owned slaves, slavery became more than just economic payback and suffrage and dependence. It became a caste system, and we created a slave society that was also a society that was organized by race. And because of that the end of slavery didn&#039 ; t accomplish the same kind of relief the same kind of opportunity for enslaved people that it did in other parts of the world. And I think we need to understand the way in which slavery in this country created a mythology about the inhumanity of African-Americans, the inferiority of African-Americans, that the end of slavery didn&#039 ; t address. As a result of that we were set up for, I believe, 100 years of struggle, 200 years of tension, and we haven&#039 ; t confronted that slave reality. In fact, we&#039 ; ve done the opposite. We&#039 ; ve tried to minimize the horrific aspects of slavery. So we want to talk about that institutional relationship through a different lens. I think the second institution hasn&#039 ; t been defined as an institution--but I think it&#039 ; s important to think about it as an institution--and that was the institution of terror. At the end of Reconstruction until World War II, African-Americans were subjected to systematic terror. It was the threat of violence. It was lynching. It was convict leasing. It was bombings. It was all of the violence that made black subordination possible. Passing laws didn&#039 ; t persuade African-Americans that they were inferior or should be submissive. You had to enforce them with violence and with terror. And that&#039 ; s what happened. And that era of terror has not in my judgment been totally recognized. African-Americans in the Deep South recognize it. Many of us are offended when we hear people on TV talking about how we&#039 ; re dealing with terrorism for the first time after 9/11. And knowing that we have the capacity to respond to terror the way we&#039 ; ve respond to terror in the last 15 years is a little troubling because we didn&#039 ; t make that response over the decades when African-Americans were being systematically victimized: they couldn&#039 ; t go to law enforcement, they couldn&#039 ; t go anywhere. And that inspired the Great Migration and did a whole host of things. But that institution of terror in my view hasn&#039 ; t been well defined, or well understood. Third institution was of course Jim Crow segregation ; we know a lot more about that, because it&#039 ; s more recent, but also because there was resistance. We had very powerful leaders in the African-American community and other communities finding that experience in ways, I think, were quite profound. We also know about it because we succeeded in confronting it. What we don&#039 ; t appreciate about even that institution, however, is that it was systematic. It was structural. It was psychological. It had aspects to it that we haven&#039 ; t fully defined. As a result of that we thought we could change the laws that created it and then just move on. And I think that&#039 ; s a mistake, and I think we are still struggling to overcome segregation, apartheid, racial hierarchy, because we haven&#039 ; t talked about it. And in South Africa, Rwanda, these countries that dealt with horrific human rights violations recognized that to get past them, you have to commit yourself to a process of truth and reconciliation. And in the United States, we didn&#039 ; t do that. We created no space to tell the truth about what Jim Crow and segregation had done to everybody ; not just African-Americans but to white people too. All of that trauma, all of that humiliation, all of that violence, all of that stigma, all of those presumptions, we never gave anybody space to talk about it. In fact we did the opposite. We wouldn&#039 ; t let people talk about it. And we&#039 ; ve tried to move on, and I don&#039 ; t think we&#039 ; ve moved nearly as far as we could&#039 ; ve moved. And we won&#039 ; t get as far as we need to get until we go back and actually create that space. I think it cannot happen without that. Apartheid could not have been confronted without truth and reconciliation ; Rwanda, the genocide could not be confronted without truth and reconciliation. I think in the United States, segregation and the legacy of racial apartheid and racial subordination cannot be confronted until we create that space. My family members and people in the African-American community need an opportunity to give voice to the pain and the anguish, the humiliation and the trauma that they lived with and continue to live with. And we need to let people who are white also know that they were also the victims of a lie. They were taught by their parents and grandparents that they are actually better than other people because of their skin color. And there is nothing more corruptive, nothing more abusive that you can do to someone than to feed them a lie and have them embrace that lie and let that lie shape their worldview. And so it&#039 ; s not just for African-Americans that I think we need to have this experience of truth and reconciliation. I think it&#039 ; s for the entire community. I think the fourth institution because we didn&#039 ; t engage in truth and reconciliation has emerged in the last thirty years, and I believe that&#039 ; s mass incarceration. I believe the way in which we have used the criminal justice system as a repository for our fear and our anger, for our presumptions of guilt that we assign to many people of color, our presumptions of worthlessness that we assign to people of color. We have created structures that are every bit as racially compromised as some of the structures that existed eighty years ago, but we&#039 ; ve surrounded them with procedures and formalities that make us believe that things like the death penalty are shielded from racial bias. Or our sentencing system is shielded from racial bias. Or our criminal justice system is shielded from the ravages that poverty create, and a system that is wealth dependent. Our system, our criminal justice system, is shaped by wealth. It treats you better if you&#039 ; re rich and guilty than if you&#039 ; re poor and innocent. And so that institutional reality had devastating consequences for communities of color. In the state of Alabama, 34% of the black male population has permanently lost the right to vote. And in a state where we celebrate the Voting Rights Act, we celebrate that struggle, we are systematically losing African-American voters throughout the criminal justice system, and we&#039 ; re resisting even talking about that issue. We&#039 ; re going to get to the point in some communities where the level of disenfranchisement among African-Americans is actually going to be as high as it was when the Voting Rights Act was passed. And to me that&#039 ; s intolerable. We&#039 ; re using mass incarceration to devastate communities. There are places in this state and across the country where 40 to 50% of the men of color are in jail, or in prison, or on probation and parole ; which is a permanent lifetime ban from certain kinds of opportunities. We&#039 ; ve used the politics of fear and anger to do some really devastating things to children. My work has focused a lot on kids prosecuted as adults, children sentenced to die in prison. The United States is the only country in the world that has condemned thirteen-year-old children to die in prison--life in prison without parole. Seventy percent of those kids thirteen and fourteen are African-American or Latino. And to me that represents again this institutional threat, this barrier to full and fair participation in the society. And so our project is really aimed at giving voice to this lens, and then kind of trying to educate people about historical realities with a goal of engaging people more deeply. We don&#039 ; t want people to just know about lynching or the Civil Rights Movement. We want them to understand the trauma, the injury. We&#039 ; re about to publish a calendar. It&#039 ; s our first kind of publication in our Race and Poverty Project, and it&#039 ; s a calendar that documents the African-American experience ; but it&#039 ; s not a calendar that celebrates black achievement. It&#039 ; s not about the first African-American to do this, or the first African-American to do that. It&#039 ; s a calendar that documents the oppression and the violence and the barriers that have been constructed to limit African-American achievements. It talks about lynchings. It talks about the laws that were passed that insisted on racial hierarchy. It talks about the struggle to actually overcome slavery. It talks about resistance to Civil Rights. It talks about all of the structural and personal barriers that African-Americans have had to confront, and it asks us to not simply remember the success and the achievement but to remember the ugliness, the pain, the anguish, the violence, the despair. Because if we don&#039 ; t understand that part we&#039 ; ll misperceive what the Civil Rights experience--what the history--is really about. And I&#039 ; m hoping we can do that in other areas where we&#039 ; re very interested in actually examining the rule, the role of the law as a project with lawyers and people who have done legal reform. Very few people appreciate that bias and discrimination--bigotry and racial hierarchy--warrant personal attitudes in the movies and in our current culture. We like to reduce these problems to a handful of bad actors. We love to prosecute Klu Klux Klan members and extremists as the face of racial bigotry. When in fact, the face of racial bigotry were ordinary citizens--legislators, judges, city council members, ministers--who bought into a construct of racial hierarchy and acculturated to it, socialized to it, even made their religious faiths and values accommodating. And until we understand that, I don&#039 ; t think we actually get how big a problem this was. And so we like talking about the laws that were passed to construct this kind of racial hierarchy. At the Institute here you have the ordinances that were passed. I think that&#039 ; s really important for people to appreciate. It wasn&#039 ; t some mean white person down the street that wouldn&#039 ; t let black people do X and Y. This was a system. It was a system that had been passed down over decades, and so we&#039 ; re putting out reports about this relationship between race and the law. We&#039 ; re doing some things that are designed to engage the people in various communities around some of these issues. Because of our work in the death penalty area, we&#039 ; re very interested in the use of lethal violence as an expression of cultural norms, social norms that have racial implications. And so we&#039 ; re very interested in lynching, and one of our hopes is to actually begin talking about monuments and memorializing lynching sites. And we want people to appreciate the proximity between these horrific acts of gross human rights violations--mass violence, mass torture--that were committed in these communities all around us. We have no consciousness about it. We don&#039 ; t talk about it, and I think we have to confront it. In our country we know that when you victimize people unfairly you can&#039 ; t just ignore it. I mean, we&#039 ; re doing a lot to appreciate what 9/11 did, and we would think it unconscionable to have experienced that violence and that injury without talking about it ; without doing something to reconcile ourselves with that. And yet, in the context of lynching, we never did that. We don&#039 ; t talk about it. We&#039 ; re not even allowed to actually understand where it happened and who was involved. And so our project is going to do a lot of work around that phenomenon. And there are things in that vein that I&#039 ; m hoping we can do to really push on what this legacy of racial inequality has done. ANDERSON: I know I picture you in a prison with a young person talking. I mean you are very hands on, and here you are speaking in really broad terms about systemic change. You&#039 ; re an incredible communicator, and so I&#039 ; m excited about the potential of what you&#039 ; re talking about. Also, how do you balance being in the weeds and getting work done? STEVENSON: Yeah. You know? It&#039 ; s an interesting evolution for me. I mean, I did start out really just working on individual cases with clients, and the influence of poverty and influence of race was so pervasive. And all of these individual cases, all of my clients, are poor. Many of them are people of color whose race has absolutely been a factor in their ability to get fair and just treatment. And we&#039 ; ve done a lot of work around that. I see some of these issues as Civil Rights issues, as human rights issues. To me, the death penalty is a Civil Rights issue. Excessive punishment is a Civil Rights issue. Mass incarceration is a Civil Rights issue, and through our work in individual cases, and in efforts to kind of challenge these issues, it&#039 ; s always been the way I&#039 ; ve thought of the work that I do and the work that we do at EJI. I think we&#039 ; re now at a point where it becomes important to make these connections in a more direct way, and that&#039 ; s the reason why we&#039 ; ve made kind of race and poverty our newest project. In many ways, it&#039 ; s an evolution. You know? The work I&#039 ; ve done around death cases--where we&#039 ; ve been challenging the exclusion of African-Americans from juries and the kind of really racialized ways in which cases are sometimes prosecuted, the exclusion of people of color in decision making roles in the system, the disparate sentencing--all of that has been about the way in which this legacy of race and racial bias manifests itself today. I think now it&#039 ; s time to really take these issues and put them in this broader context so people can understand why we&#039 ; re still talking about race. Why we&#039 ; re talking about poverty as structural poverty. Not just as someone who doesn&#039 ; t have something and the relationship between the two. We&#039 ; re in a region where race and poverty have gone hand in hand to create barriers to opportunity and full expression of all the values we say we care about. And so, for me, it becomes necessary to make those connections. And so in a lot of ways it&#039 ; s my time in prison cells with poor people and with young men and boys of color, and women of color and other people that has got me to this place where I now think it&#039 ; s really important to put in a broader context this, this struggle and these issues. ANDERSON: Who&#039 ; s gonna get the calendar? I mean, I&#039 ; m thinking I want every known person who&#039 ; s in prison to get it, but they can&#039 ; t even read Slavery By Another Name. So? STEVENSON: [laughs] Well, that&#039 ; s a really good question. Well, you know? The calendar is as much for people who are outside the prison context as it is for people inside, and so we&#039 ; ll focus on the thousands and millions of people who need to understand that history. Who won&#039 ; t have that barrier, but we&#039 ; re also going to keep challenging this idea that incarcerated people--condemned people--somehow should be shielded from understanding these historical forces. I tend to think that a deeper understanding of these forces can actually be a pathway to recovery, to reinterpretation, to rehabilitation. You know? I work with young kids and one of the saddest things I do is I talk to these kids, and if you get them to engage in really honest conversation, the bottom line is that many of them are quite hopeless. They see their friends and their neighbors and their siblings dying or effectively dying by being sent to prison for the rest of their life, and it creates this despair. And they say to me,&quot ; Mr. Stevenson: , I know I&#039 ; m going to be in prison or dead by the time I&#039 ; m twenty-one,&quot ; and they&#039 ; re twelve and thirteen years of age. And they say I&#039 ; ve got to go out here and get mine while I can. And that kind of framing is the kind of framing that for 150 years African-American leaders were trying to protect against. You had to persuade people during slavery that freedom would be good. That it would be safe to be free. And even though it wasn&#039 ; t always safe to be free, you had to have that hope. You had to have that vision. During Reconstruction, people embraced freedom, and then it was crushed and taken away from them. And so to keep striving for it took courage. You couldn&#039 ; t just look at what was right in front of you and accept that and react to that and have that shape your hopes and dreams. You had to fight against it. You had to submit to it in many ways. You had to play along with it in many ways, but you had to understand and believe that there was more. And those who had that vision succeeded, and those who didn&#039 ; t died in agony, in misery--victims of this horrific system. It&#039 ; s true during the Era of Terror, convict leasing, all of these institutions. That was true during the Civil Rights Movement. Lots of people claimed to have been active but most people were sitting on the sidewalks or hiding someplace. It really required a lot of hope and a lot of courage to say, &quot ; You know what? Even though we&#039 ; re going to be confronted with ugliness and violence, we&#039 ; re going to still press on.&quot ; And that prevailed in many ways, but that hope and courage was essential. There could be no Civil Rights Movement without believing things you hadn&#039 ; t seen. Believing that there could be integration in Alabama. Believing that you could achieve opportunities that had been denied for a century. And so that same frame is needed for our young people in jails and prisons, and for our whole society. Right? Because a lot of these sentences, a lot of what&#039 ; s expressed by mass incarceration is hopelessness. We can&#039 ; t do better for people, so let&#039 ; s throw them away: &quot ; Three strikes, you&#039 ; re out! We&#039 ; ll put you in prison for the rest of your life.&quot ; The growth of life imprisonment without parole is an acceptable sentence and we actually take pride in our ability to throw people away. And that has to be challenged, because it is ultimately hopeless. It is the opposite of courage, in my view. It repudiates everything we claim when we talk about rehabilitation and redemption and recovery and reconciliation. And so I think there ought to be a whole community of people--faith people, people of color, poor people, people who understand the importance of getting back up when you&#039 ; ve fallen down--who are pushing, demanding for something more hopeful. But instead, I think we&#039 ; ve been distracted by the politics of fear and anger in a way that has silenced us and made us complacent. And part of what we want to do is challenge that silence and engage people and get them to understand that you shouldn&#039 ; t, you can&#039 ; t celebrate Civil Rights and be silent about mass incarceration. You can&#039 ; t embrace the Montgomery Bus Boycott and the Voting Rights struggle and be indifferent about disenfranchisement of ex-offenders. All of these things express basic realities, basic truths, and it wasn&#039 ; t true fifty years ago and a lie today. If it was true then, it&#039 ; s true today. And that struggle is very much a part of what we&#039 ; re hoping to animate through some of our work. ANDERSON: I wanna ask you about travel outside our country. I&#039 ; m sure that you are asked to speak a lot. And here, the mission of the Institute was to promote civil and human rights worldwide through education. STEVENSON: Yeah. ANDERSON: I would love to know your perceptions of us that you&#039 ; ve encountered. STEVENSON: Yeah ; well it&#039 ; s fascinating. I have done work outside of the U.S. and it&#039 ; s always been an interesting experience for me. I was doing work in Brazil many years ago because there was an effort--they don&#039 ; t have the death penalty, but there was an effort to bring the death penalty back--and I was asked to spend some time down there and it was interesting because their sense of race and racial identity was very different than what we have here in this country, and yet there were these very stark realities. Brown and black people did experience bias and discrimination even if they didn&#039 ; t self-identify in that way. And it was fascinating for me to talk about racial identity and racial struggle in a society where these realities existed, but there hadn&#039 ; t really been an expression around that frame. And I&#039 ; ve seen this throughout the world. I think the United States has a reputation as being a first world country, as having a commitment to human rights ; and there are a lot of things that we do that I think are admirable. But we are also very myopic. We are not good at evaluating these issues close to home. We&#039 ; re the only country, along with Somalia, that has refused to sign the Covenant on the Rights of the Child, and I think that undermines our status, I think it makes us less credible when we talk about human rights globally. We do a lot of things to say we believe democracy is important and expression is important, but when we disenfranchise people here, and we&#039 ; re indifferent about that, that compromises our commitment to human rights. And I think other countries are very quick to recognize this. And so I do think this is a global issue. I don&#039 ; t think we can maintain the relationships we want to maintain with other countries, many of which are critical for our self-interest without being more attentive to human rights in this country. Without being more rigorous about how we enforce the values and the laws and norms we talk so much about in this country. And I have never been shy about giving voice to the problems in the U.S., outside of the U.S.. And a lot of people think that&#039 ; s not cool, but you know I was in Russia on the day when Boris Yelstin commuted all of the death sentences of people on death row there. Russia does not have an active death penalty anymore, and I was very comfortable saying, &quot ; You know? You will be moving ahead of the United States on this human rights issue. You know? You used to have the highest rate of incarceration in the world with reforms. That will no longer be true. It will be true for the United States.&quot ; And these are realities that I don&#039 ; t create, but they&#039 ; re realities nonetheless. And I think we have to talk about them. You know, I did work on capital punishment on China. The Chinese were very quick to point out that they don&#039 ; t execute juveniles. You can&#039 ; t get the death penalty if you&#039 ; re under the age of eighteen. When I was there in the early part of 2000s, we did. And those kinds of disconnects compromise our ability to advance human rights globally. So I do think it&#039 ; s important that we have this global perspective, but I also think, you know, that as the slogan says &quot ; It&#039 ; s important to think globally but act locally.&quot ; I think we have the ability to change and affect human rights on a daily basis in our community here. And we shouldn&#039 ; t believe that it&#039 ; s better to go do this someplace faraway because sometimes that&#039 ; s easier. But the reality is, until we address these issues locally, were not going to have influence and credibility globally. ANDERSON: Are you hopeful about our country, especially after this past summer? STEVENSON: [laughs] You know? I have to be hopeful. I think when you, when you allow yourself to get hopeless about what can be done you begin to prepare yourself for failure. You shut down. You&#039 ; re not as creative. You&#039 ; re not as courageous. You&#039 ; re not as energized. You&#039 ; re not as engaged. It&#039 ; s just what the body does. It&#039 ; s what the mind does, and so I think you have to remain hopeful. There are times when it&#039 ; s hard, because the signs you see, the words you hear are very, very discouraging. But I do remain hopeful: I see a lot that encourages me. On mass incarceration, I think we&#039 ; re about to turn a corner. I think the economic crises had one upside, and it&#039 ; s basically the only upside: it caused us to appreciate that we cannot afford that nearly six million people on probation and parole in this country and 2.3 million people in jails and prisons. Even here in Alabama where the prison population of close to 30,000 people, which is six times greater than it was in 1979. In 1979, there were 5,000 people in jails and prisons in the State of Alabama. Today there are 30,000, and you know our violent crime rate was the same then as it is now. So this increase in 25,000 people in prison is not about crime. It&#039 ; s about a misguided war on drugs, which is not a crime problem. It&#039 ; s a health problem. And if we really cared about people who are struggling with drug addiction and drug abuse, we would actually engage them through a health framework and try to heal them, to try to help them. But instead we punish them, we threaten them, and then we condemn them to prison--at our expense--for decades. And so the only upside is that cost is causing us to reevaluate some of these policies. I think we now realize that we are bankrupting our educational system. People who are sending their kids to Auburn and Alabama and other colleges and universities in this state are paying more because we are spending millions of dollars to incarcerate people who are not a threat to public safety. And it doesn&#039 ; t really make sense to do that. We should use those dollars to invest in more opportunities for people. Some states (the state of California) spent over $100,000 per juvenile in juvenile detention, and you just think what you could do if you spent just a tenth of that on the kids to prevent them from engaging in behaviors that result in these arrests. And what you would do for the larger community. We don&#039 ; t like to spend money on poor people, we don&#039 ; t like to spend money on people who are vulnerable and marginalized, but we ultimately DO. We just do it in the correctional context. And I would rather do it in ways that actually prevents crime ; lowers the misconduct ; creates a healthier, safer community for everybody. And then you get someplace. You don&#039 ; t keep repeating the same mistakes, and I do think that there is some recognition, now, that we&#039 ; re going to have to bring the prison population down. That we&#039 ; re going to have to embrace some reforms. We can&#039 ; t just punish our way out of all of the social problems and economic problems that we&#039 ; ve created ; and that we&#039 ; re going to have to reevaluate what it means to be a healthy place. You know? You see this, we do these reactionary laws that are so misguided, and I think the immigration law is an example of that. We now have this unbearably racist law in Alabama. It&#039 ; s a law that basically legalizes racial profiling. And as a result of that, we realize that we were going to be punished by people who don&#039 ; t want to be profiled, who are not poor, who are not marginalized. They&#039 ; re investors. They&#039 ; re Europeans. They&#039 ; re Chinese. They&#039 ; re Asians looking for economic opportunity, and we cannot have that benefit, we cannot have that business that we care so much about without confronting the racial history. And the reputation and the identity we&#039 ; ve created for ourselves by resisting Civil Rights, by resisting equality, by promoting--if you will--and taking pride in a history that actually glories in some of these dynamics. You know? Because I&#039 ; m a product of the Civil Rights Movement and grew up with Jim Crow, I&#039 ; m the first to admit that I don&#039 ; t like that we love talking about the good ole days, that we sentimentalize these experiences as if they were just glorious and wonderful. We embrace Confederate Memorial Day as a state holiday ; and we don&#039 ; t even really understand what that means. We think these icons of the Confederacy are people to be emulated and respected but we don&#039 ; t really understand what that represents. We&#039 ; re not very careful about not naming things after people who were proponents of horrific racial violence and destruction and engaged in systematic violence directed at people of color. Some of the worst eugenicists that used sterilization and abusive medical procedures in poor communities and minority communities are the people in the Alabama Medical Hall of Fame. And we&#039 ; re not very careful about that, because we haven&#039 ; t really committed to confronting this history, and so I believe our economic development and future is going to always be constrained until we do that. And so that&#039 ; s what makes me hopeful. If we can give expression to these problems in ways that people recognize it&#039 ; s not just for black people. It&#039 ; s not just for brown people. It&#039 ; s not just for undocumented people that we&#039 ; re insisting on fairness and equality. It&#039 ; s for everybody. Then perhaps there might be an opportunity to see real progress. ANDERSON: That&#039 ; s what the Movement was about. STEVENSON: Completely about. The Civil Rights Movement was always expressed in terms of: &quot ; This is not for us. It&#039 ; s for everybody.&quot ; And I don&#039 ; t think people actually understood it then, and I&#039 ; m not sure they understand it now. And in too many places we celebrate the Movement. We talk about the Movement in that same narrow frame: &quot ; It was for them. Well, that&#039 ; s your holiday. That&#039 ; s your success. That&#039 ; s your story. Ours is the great Confederacy, and the great resistance of this, and the great-&quot ; And I think we have to confront that. We have to talk about that. ANDERSON: I could talk to you all day and listen all day. STEVENSON: [laughs] ANDERSON: I have so many questions. I just want to know one thing. I&#039 ; m kind of lost. Who listens to you? Are you spending more time in Alabama or outside Alabama? STEVENSON: You know? Our work has become more national. Our work with kids was national. Most of those cases were done outside the state. The lead case that went to the U.S. Supreme Court was actually an Alabama case, but our work has really been national on that issue. I do a lot of work on the death penalty all over the place, but our litigation is mostly here in Alabama. Our wrongful conviction/abuse of power stuff tends to be regional in the South. Our race and poverty work I expect will be national, but it will have a regional focus because obviously the states of the Old Confederacy are the jurisdictions where these dynamics were particularly intense. But I&#039 ; m hoping it will have a kind of regional component to it but with a national goal. We think the whole country needs to engage in this dialogue around racial memory and overcoming racial inequality through truth and reconciliation. People think--younger people who grew up in Chicago, Detroit, New York, Baltimore, Boston--who believe that they have no connection to the South and the reality is of course they do. They don&#039 ; t even understand the Great Migration and how they are refugees of the same kind of violence and terror that we&#039 ; re talking about in this region. They&#039 ; re not disconnected. They are the exiles. And because they sought a refuge in another part of this country doesn&#039 ; t make that experience any less meaningful and powerful. And so we&#039 ; ve got to understand that and think about that through that lens. ANDERSON: I looked for the answer to this question elsewhere, because you have received some press. Like I said, you&#039 ; re a wonderful communicator and that&#039 ; s been captured. It&#039 ; s so great to have that, and I&#039 ; m not endeavoring to get your life&#039 ; s story because we don&#039 ; t have time. STEVENSON: [laughs] ANDERSON: But I do wonder did you say &quot ; I&#039 ; m just gonna pick the most regressively structured state and go there?&quot ; When you made the decision to go to Alabama, because the Constitution just sets this place up. STEVENSON: Yeah ANDERSON: These things are doubly entrenched. STEVENSON: You know? There&#039 ; s a part of that analysis which I think is true: I mean I started in Atlanta with the Southern Prisoners Defense Committee. I was doing a lot of work here in Alabama. This was in the mid-80&#039 ; s, and it was clear to me that Alabama was a state where there were very few resources. There was no public defenders system here. There weren&#039 ; t institutions that were focused on the plight of incarcerated people, condemned people. There was no real tradition of a vibrant legal community that was engaged in the kind of resistance to fear and anger in the criminal justice context, and so we clearly saw a big need here, and that was the reason why I came. I didn&#039 ; t really intend to stay. I mean, my hope had actually been to go back to Atlanta and keep doing the work I was doing there. But the proximity is the pathway to truth: you cannot really appreciate what the needs are until you get close enough to evaluate them. And being here and experiencing what I experienced made it harder and harder to be anyplace else, to go anyplace else because the issues that I saw were deeply disturbing and engaging. And the opportunities I saw to make progress were also engaging. And you know? Now, this is home. It&#039 ; s where I&#039 ; ve been for almost thirty years now. And it becomes part of what&#039 ; s important, because in many ways it&#039 ; s only when we see progress, it&#039 ; s only when we achieve success in places that are entrenched, where the resistance is constitutional, where the barriers are so insidious that we can actually really claim progress. You know? It&#039 ; s very easy to create diversity and promise and opportunity in elite institutions and elite places where nothing really challenging emerges. You know? You really do measure progress, you measure commitment to the rule of law, you measure a commitment to equality and fairness by how you treat the poorest, most marginalized, most victimized, most institutionalized people, in the most regressive and resistant places. And that means that Alabama will still be the thermostat for how we progress on race in this country--not some other jurisdiction. Because as we are part of this country, this country can&#039 ; t claim anything until we see that in places like Alabama. And so, yeah, I don&#039 ; t have regrets about being here. It&#039 ; s been challenging and at times overwhelming but also deeply enriching and that&#039 ; s the beautiful thing about proximity: it can break you and cut you and bruise you, but it can also give you insights and truth and an understanding of the power of human dignity and human worth that you will not appreciate in more comfortable and convenient spaces. And so I actually still feel really privileged to have been here doing the work I&#039 ; ve done. ANDERSON: Thank you. Thank you for doing it. STEVENSON: Thank you. That&#039 ; s very kind. ANDERSON: For someone I&#039 ; ve never met till today for whom I say, &quot ; Thank you.&quot ; STEVENSON: [laughs] Well, thank you. I appreciate that. ANDERSON: So, like I said earlier, we&#039 ; re really glad you&#039 ; re going to be apart of this special week for us [Birmingham Civil Rights Institute]. It is our twentieth anniversary. I think you&#039 ; re being the recipient and giving us the occasion to really understand what you are really all about. It&#039 ; s very crucial for us at this current point in institutional mistreatment. Thank you. STEVENSON: Yes. Sure, sure. You&#039 ; re welcome. Terrific. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=BStevenson2012.xml BStevenson2012.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bryan Stevenson Description An account of the resource Bryan Stevenson discusses accepting the Fred L. Shuttlesworth Human Rights Award and his work with the Equal Justice Initiative in the state of Alabama, nationally and internationally. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 20121031S Subject The topic of the resource Equal Justice Initiative Incarceration issues Slavery Stevenson, Bryan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-10-31 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video