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https://bcriohp.org/files/original/2bdcdf91eca179164cdeb64d21dce803.jpg
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Laura Anderson
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C.T. Vivian
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CTVivian2013.xml
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Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011
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5.4 August 15, 2013 Rev. C.T. Vivian 20130815V 0:42:56 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexers: Lessie Dingler, Alexandra Smith Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Southern Christian Leadership Conference Freedom Rides, 1961 Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 C.T. Vivian Laura Anderson Video 1:|32(11)|41(13)|53(2)|61(3)|74(10)|87(14)|88(3)|112(6)|118(14)|139(11)|165(3)|185(6)|205(11)|216(4)|228(13)|242(4)|249(9)|267(2)|275(2)|282(13)|291(2)|312(15)|323(9)|332(11)|340(4)|351(7)|387(3)|414(6)|428(1)|439(5)|446(13)|454(4)|467(12)|478(13)|485(16)|492(11)|509(4)|521(7)|550(6)|562(16)|592(10)|604(10)|611(5)|618(6)|628(11)|636(18)|648(2)|684(10)|721(13)|739(8)|748(4)|761(2)|775(9)|785(10) 0 https://youtu.be/yOctHnV047A YouTube video English 2 Introduction to Interview OK. Welcome to the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Introduction to Reverend C.T. Vivian 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 14 Family Background And, I want to begin by asking you to please give me your full name, and your date of birth and place of birth. Reverend C. T. Vivian discusses how he was born in Missouri and left to Illinois with his family due to the Great Depression and segregation in the south. African Americans--Agriculture ; Segregation in education Booneville (Mo.) ; Great Depression ; Howard County (Mo.) ; McComb (Ill.) ; Western Illinois University 289 Education and Work Background Hmm. So you went to teachers’ college yourself? Reverend C. T. Vivian discusses going to school for journalism and working as a writer for various places around Illinois after his time in school. Journalism Carver Community Center (Ill.) ; Chicago (Ill.) ; Nashville (Tenn.) ; National Baptist Convention of the United States of America. Sunday School Publishing Board ; St. Louis (Mo.) ; Urban Training Center (Ill.) ; YMCA 431 Going to Nashville Hmm. Well, so when you finally did venture down to Nashville, was your family worried for you? Reverend C. T. Vivian explains how even though the north was better for them, he felt compelled to join the Movement in the south because people were dying. Breakthrough ; Fear--The South--United States ; Grandmother 560 Activism at a Young Age This is what you were convicted to be involved in. Reverend C. T. Vivian explains how he got involved at a young age starting with being the head of organizations at his predominately white school. Integration--Schools Edison Junior High (McComb, Ill.) ; Lincoln Elementary School (McComb, Ill.) ; McComb High School (McComb, Ill.) 676 McComb's Coverage Mmm. You and I were talking on the way up, when we were walking through the Institute, about the media, and about, things that were aired locally, or not aired locally, that were seen by the rest of the country, was McComb’s coverage of what you were doing positive or negative? Reverend C. T. Vivian discusses how even though the schools were integrated, social situations outside of school were still weighted with segregation practices. Integration--Schools ; Social Gatherings--Segregation McCombs (Ill.) ; Peoria (Ill.) 851 Feelings About the Current Racial Climate Hmm. How do you feel about things now? Reverend C.T. Vivian talks about how his concern today is about Black leadership, and having a Black president is a another thing that people are still not completely in favor of. Black Leadership--Black President Confederates ; Obama, Barack ; Tea Party Patriots 932 Birmingham's Role in Civil Rights What role do you think Birmingham played in cracking the egg? Reverend CT Vivian explains his view on how Birmingham affected the whole nation's Civil Rights Movement and how other places was working long before they get credit for. Nonviolence ; Sit-ins Peoria (Ill.) ; Pontiac (Mich.) 1058 Movement Strategies and Training ...starting the movement, but let’s say why. You see, we still didn’t know what to do, all of that was north. Even when, even when the NAACP won the, the school case, in the West, right, is that that didn’t mean anything to the South. Didn’t change the South one iota, right? Reverend CT Vivian explains how the nonviolent strategy of the Movement was intentionally different in the South and lead to the SCLC. Montgomery (Ala.) ; Nonviolence King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 1414 Meeting in Montgomery for the Freedom Rides Farmer. When, when, Jim said, I’d known Jim before. But then we were in prison together in, during, in Jackson, Mississippi. But but the, see when he said, ‘Well, we’ve proven the point,’ depending back on the legal stuff again, that that a black man, that even, even animals can be moved across country without having to be moved from one, one car to another, right, but , but not black people. Reverend CT Vivian discusses how he became involved with the Freedom Rides and how he handled it personally. Ardmore (Ala.) ; Farmer, James ; Montgomery (Ala.) Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Jackson (Miss.) 1660 The Relationship Between Spiritual and Intellectual in the Movement Yeah, you were kinda signing your life away, weren’t you? Reverend CT Vivian breaks down the intersection of Christianity and the Movement, as well as the role religion played in the community at the time. Old Testament Association of Southern Baptist Colleges and Schools ; Christianity ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 1947 The Impact of Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth ...any special recollections or insight you have into SCLC’s decisions about Birmingham. Reverend CT Vivian describes how Reverend Fred L. Shuttlesworth transformed the Birmingham Movement and shifted it toward success. March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 2293 Nonviolent Practice and Changes Across the Country Well, I know would have been knowledgeable, but it often, in the mythologizing of all of this, it often gets painted, a picture gets painted, that puts you all on one side, like, ‘well, we don’t care that they’re trying to change the form of government, we’ve got to do what we have to do,’ Reverend CT Vivian explains that the Movement was working for national change of all people. Nonviolence Discrimination ; Slavery 2431 Winning on a National Level I’ve heard you use the phrase “we won” and you know, but what was the win it was a national … Reverend CT Vivian describes racism as anti-Christian and explains the Movement work in seminaries nationally. Christianity ; Racism ; South Africa King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Selma (Ala.) 2647 Using Love to Gain Solidarity Big difference is right! And so, we, we go and so I go, and I give the speech and I give the sermon, and one of the things I’m talking about, I talk about I – the only thing from the speech I really remember – , was the fact that , here , that , you can continue and ministers can stand up there and do it, but eventually, if they get rid of a minister that tells them the truth, they can never walk in that church, without the blood flowing, that they see flowing down the front of that pulpit. right? Reverend CT Vivian describes the role love should play in Christianity and therefore should influence the lives and relationships of Christians. Gay rights--Religious aspects--Baptists, [Catholic Church, etc.] ; Old Testament Christianity ; Racism 2861 SCLC's Relationship to Birmingham You said, ‘No. We never wanted to come back, SCLC, coming back to Birmingham,' but you said there were reasons … Reverend CT Vivian explains why SCLC did not have any desire to return to Birmingham in order to continue working. National guard ; SCLC ; Selma (Ala.) Southern Christian Leadership Conference 2976 Victory in Selma So, for you, was that place Dallas County? Reverend CT Vivian explains how the Movement in Selma included wins for racial justice, voter registration and women's suffrage. Bloody Sunday ; Voting rights ; Women's suffrage Selma (Ala.) ; Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) ; United States. Civil Rights Act of 1964 3244 Conclusion of Interview Thank you so much. Interview is concluded. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Vivian, CT Oral History Reverend CT Vivian discusses his leadership in the Movement through SCLC. He worked closely with Dr. Martin Luther King in Selma and on the religious aspects of the Movement. ANDERSON: OK. Welcome to the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. VIVIAN: Thank you, sister. ANDERSON: We' ; re so pleased to have you. Again, I' ; m Laura. Anderson. I' ; m an archivist here. VIVIAN: Mmm hmm. ANDERSON: And I want to begin by asking you to please give me your full name, and your date of birth and place of birth. VIVIAN: C. T. Vivian, but that means Cordy C-O-R-D-Y Tindell T-I-N-D-E-L-L Vivian V-I-V-I-A-N. Right. Mmm hmm. And that was July 30th, 1924, is when I was born. ANDERSON: And you were born in-- VIVIAN: In Missouri. In Howard County, Missouri, really. ANDERSON: OK VIVIAN: Mmm hmm. Across from, the river from Booneville, Illinois. ANDERSON: We won' ; t get into- VIVIAN: Oh, I mean, Booneville, Missouri. ANDERSON: Okay. VIVIAN: Pardon me. Yeah. ANDERSON: Well, we won' ; t get into whether Missouri is the South, we' ; ll just move on and we' ; ll talk about how you ended up in the South. VIVIAN: It was the South, however, the reason my family left was two: one was because the Depression had hit, right, and the other one is because we were in a segregated state, and, as a result, I couldn' ; t get the kind of education that the family knew I needed. So, since we lost everything, that, does things to a man. Right? It really does things to men. They had farms, they' ; d worked for three farms, and then worked and bought three farms, and then to have them disappear overnight was a little much for them to take. Both my father, who wasn' ; t that old, but it shook the whole country. I don' ; t care whether you were Black or white, you were shaken, right. But, if you were Black you had no reason to stay in a segregated state. As a result, the family moved to Illinois, as the best way to say it. But when they did, they stopped, for whatever reason, I don' ; t know, but they stopped -- I know the real reason -- they stopped at a university town. In McComb, Illinois, right. As a result of that, I grew up in a non-segregated environment. ANDERSON: Hmm. What university was there? VIVIAN: Western Illinois University. Which is the name now, but at the time it was Western Illinois Teachers' ; College. And that' ; s what happened during those times, that we were first a college, and then because the area we were in colleges were the norm, because we had to educate so many teachers, because there was a law about every square mile there had to be a school. And as a result of that, they needed lots of teachers, which means they needed lots of teachers' ; colleges, alright? And that' ; s it. But the bottom line on that for me, was that I went to a teachers' ; college, which is what I wanted to do anyway, but I went to a teachers' ; college, but had never seen a Black teacher. So, how was I even to know, that I was going to ever have a chance to teach? But I knew I could possibly teach because, if you were a Black woman, you could not stay in the dormitory. And there was only a woman' ; s dormitory at the time, and you couldn' ; t stay there, so there were Black women who came to stay in the city. And in our town. And then in the smallest part of it was Black community, right? So, my grandmother rented out, rooms in our houses to students. ANDERSON: Hmm. So, you went to teachers' ; college yourself? VIVIAN: Mmm hmm. Oh yeah, yeah. ANDERSON: Mmm hmm. VIVIAN: And you will hear me later talk about being in journalism and editing at the Sunday School Publishing Board of the National Baptist Convention, which was the largest convention of Black people in the United States. We had the largest publishing house, by the way, as well, and in fact Nashville was filled with publishing houses. Ours was the largest African American one, but there were two others. ANDERSON: So you took a job in Nashville right out of school? VIVIAN: No, oh, there was a lot of things happening -- ANDERSON: I' ; m sure. VIVIAN: Then I had been, I had been in the YMCA. I' ; d been at the Urban, not the, I started to say, the Urban Training Center, but that was much, much later. But I had been at the recreation center in Peroria, Illinois, a Carver Community Center, is what it was called, and it was the largest place for activities for Black people, the largest between Chicago and St. Louis, which is a tremendous coverage. But that' ; s how little that we had in the North. As well as in the South, you see. You see, I mention that because we thought going north everything was going to be perfect, and both white people and Black people think, oh, it would be perfect for Black people, now that they' ; ve run out of the South into the North, but the point is it wasn' ; t perfect. But it was so, so, so much better than anything in the South. ANDERSON: Hmm. VIVIAN: Much, much better than anything in the South. That it gave me a tremendous advantage. ANDERSON: Hmm. Well, so when you finally did venture down to Nashville, was your family worried for you? VIVIAN: Yes, I' ; ll tell you how it came, but they really got worried when the movement started. They began to talk about buying a house that I had liked in McComb, and a good place for us to be, and etcetera, and children, and all that. They were grandparents and that sort of thing, so they were very concerned. But they didn' ; t start that until it was very clear that the movement was serious and people were being killed in the South. And, so, they didn' ; t know whether that would happen to me or not. I remember telling them, and I' ; m doing this the long way, but I remember talking to my grandmother on the phone about it, and I told her, ' ; You see, grandma, what its like when you break an egg and it cracks but it doesn' ; t really open, and then you try to peel, the cover off of the egg, because you didn' ; t break through it, you see. And now we were in the situation where we had to break through not just the shell, but that inner thing that keeps things out, the energy, the food, the meaning, of the egg out of your reach.' ; ANDERSON: Hmm. I got too into what you were saying to remember my train of thought. Well, we were talking about your family' ; s concern for you coming South. VIVIAN: Mmm hmm. ANDERSON: And I understand that you just had to explain to them-- VIVIAN: Sure. ANDERSON: Maybe why you had no choice, this is- VIVIAN: Yeah, that' ; s- ANDERSON: -this is what you were convicted to be involved in. VIVIAN: Yeah, that' ; s precisely right. In fact, before I left McComb for instance, I had been the head of, or an important member of, every organization in high school. I was, in one situation in junior high where I lacked twenty votes of getting every vote in the school-- and it was a white school. There was very few of us Black, I mean, very few. I remember, in a class where there' ; d be two or three of us, and that was as early as fifth and sixth grade, second ward was the grade school, Lincoln, and then we went to Edison Junior High, and then McComb High School. ANDERSON: So you were always out in the forefront? VIVIAN: Yeah. ANDERSON: Well, let' ; s get back to the movement. VIVIAN: In fact, all during the movement, the McComb papers carried anything that was said about me. You know what I mean? But in fact, they' ; ve named a street after me. ANDERSON: Good. VIVIAN: Yeah, no, that' ; s very nice. ANDERSON: Mmm hmm VIVIAN: And I' ; m very thankful. And they' ; ve already called me to come back, because I you know, the president is going to give me the medal of freedom. ANDERSON: Mmm hmm VIVIAN: So they' ; ve already asked me to come back, it' ; s just a matter of figuring out how soon I can get there. ANDERSON: Mmm hmm. That' ; ll be a great day in McComb. VIVIAN: Yeah. See, what I like about is it makes it easier for any Black people that come to McComb. ANDERSON: Mmm. You and I were talking on the way up, when we were walking through the Institute, about the media, and about things that were aired locally, or not aired locally, that were seen by the rest of the country, Was McComb' ; s coverage of what you were doing positive or negative? Were they- VIVIAN: Well nobody expected any national coverage of McComb. But Peoria, that was different. At the time, Peoria was the second largest city in the state. ANDERSON: Mmm hmm. Well, I' ; m sorry, I don' ; t think I phrased it correctly. VIVIAN: Okay. ANDERSON: I wondered, at the time, were you a troublemaker, or were you a proud product of McComb? They wanted to you know- VIVIAN: Oh, oh, I was a proud product of McComb. ANDERSON: Even then? VIVIAN: Oh, yeah, oh yes -- ANDERSON: That' ; s wonderful, yeah. VIVIAN: See because we were never a segregated society in the first place, so they always felt and knew that they were far ahead of the South and did not want to be associated with anything like segregation or hate at all. And they had a right not to be. ANDERSON: Hmm. VIVIAN: Now, socially I was different, I mean as I mentioned, got every vote in the school. But, anytime somebody wanted to invite me to a party that was happening on the other side of town, or to their home for dinner, it always reminded me of that famous film, Guess Who' ; s Coming to Dinner. Well I' ; ve had those, but the parents would say no. ANDERSON: Hmm. VIVIAN: But, what that did for me, was to tell me everything was going to be alright eventually. Because there was the generation that didn' ; t want segregation, but didn' ; t want a social anti-segregation, right? So, socially they did not want a social bringing-together at that level. But any other level, they were for it. Well, I knew if wanted me to come to dinner, if my generation wanted me at parties, I knew that when they came of age it would be alright. ANDERSON: Hmm. VIVIAN: And so, I had faith that the system would really work in the end. ANDERSON: Hmm. How do you feel about things now? VIVIAN: Oh right now? That it' ; s just a matter of time when the full change comes. We' ; re on the edge of it anyway. I' ; m more concerned about Black leadership right now than for the new changes, than I am anything else. But I see the cracked egg. We have a Black president, right? And although everything is wrong that he does--the same things I' ; ve seen from other presidents that nobody even thought about it. But when it' ; s a Black president, that' ; s a whole ' ; nother thing. And we call the Tea Party the confederate party, you know. ANDERSON: Mmm hmm. VIVIAN: You know, because we see it only as that kind of impediment in the way. But that too will pass away. If I can use another one of my quotes. ANDERSON: Hmm. What role do you think Birmingham played in cracking the egg? VIVIAN: Oh, there were three -- Birmingham gave us, pardon me, Alabama gave us our freedom. See, Montgomery proved the method. By the way, I had used nonviolence in 1947, nine years before Montgomery. Alright? We had opened lunch counters in Peoria, Illinois. Nine years before Montgomery. My wife had been involved in Pontiac, Michigan, before we ever met. She had been involved in a group that were a very active group when she was a kid in grade school and high school. And they knocked on doors and all that sort of thing and asked people to come vote and that kind of thing, right. But when we look at what was coming, there was a drive-in in Pontiac, Michigan, that was broken the same way. They wanted to feed you out the window. And her minister took a group of young people, like the group I was telling you about, and went and when they gave them food in a bag, they went to the table, sat down, opened the bag, and ate, right? Well, after another one like that, they didn' ; t try it anymore. So, little things like that were happening everywhere. ANDERSON: Right, yeah it' ; s a long movement. That' ; s why I' ; m just gritting my teeth a lot this year when people use the phrase ' ; the 50th anniversary of the movement.' ; VIVIAN: Yeah, yeah. ANDERSON: I just have to-- VIVIAN: See, see and they, they' ; re -- ANDERSON: But I know that' ; s not direct-- VIVIAN: Starting the movement, but let' ; s say why. You see, we still didn' ; t know what to do-- all of that was north. Even when the NAACP won the school case in the West, that didn' ; t mean anything to the South. Didn' ; t change the South one iota, right? No schools opened in the South, right, you see what I mean? So it was so limited that we had to ask. Now what they were after was a new strategy. Remember Howard University Law School, they were the experts in constitutional law, cause that was the strategy they were going to use to open up everything. It didn' ; t open up the South at all. I mean not one iota. So, as a result of that, what we were looking for was another strategy. So the real strategy started when Martin and Montgomery came together, right. See, and this is why I said Alabama was so basic to the freedom of Black people, because Martin King, who had studied deeply --as deeply as you could under the circumstances -- studied nonviolence and at one of the best possible places for it, one of the three or four best seminaries in the United States. He came out of there as a minister going to Montgomery, and when something happened, they met as his church, asked him to be the leader, he became the leader and the method was nonviolent direct action. You see what I mean? What we needed was a new strategy. And when we won that case, that bus case, right, within days -- within weeks, really, but within a few, short weeks, ten different cities moved. Please don' ; t ask me what they were, cause I don' ; t know, I' ; m repeating a given line, but a number of cities really, really opened. And, as a result of that, that was the beginning of the movement, you see. You couldn' ; t say the experiment at Howard University was, because it didn' ; t do anything that meant the full freedom. When Martin called together the SCLC -- an organization that would be named Southern Christian Leadership Conference, right, -- leadership coming out of there was deciding to do the same thing that Martin did, with the same strategy that Martin had. See, it was the strategy that made the difference, you see. Then things changed totally. And kept changing, kept changing, still changing. ANDERSON: There were quite a few years in there to hone that strategy, between Montgomery and Birmingham. VIVIAN: Well, but it stayed the same. It was the same. ANDERSON: Mmm hmm. VIVIAN: It was the same. It just proved itself to be workable. ANDERSON: Hmm. VIVIAN: and to be work-ing, alright. There wasn' ; t any real change that went on. The only one change was the children going on, but we' ; d already been doing some of that in Nashville. ANDERSON: Hmm. VIVIAN: The real difference was we trained people in Nashville, right. For nonviolent direct action, you see what I mean. But we were all of one mind, about the strategy and how to carry it out. And we added to the strategy that had been used before in nonviolence by us. So the only change we renewed when we won Montgomery, you see what I mean? But, remember there had been a bus boycott by CORE, before coming into the South, but only at the top of the South. And they were beaten and left, right? You see, well, that didn' ; t happen this time. And our group in Nashville said that violence cannot destroy nonviolence and we will refuse to let it do so. ANDERSON: Hmm. VIVIAN: See, there wasn' ; t any thought of backing up. And as soon as he had said, cause remember on the bus boycott, it was by CORE, right. John Lewis was in the group cause he' ; d been asked to and because they knew we were training and etcetera, and they didn' ; t get very far. As you know, the busses were burned and so forth. As soon as he said, and then Jim Foreman said -- not Foreman, James -- ANDERSON: Farmer? VIVIAN: Farmer. known Jim before. But then we were in prison together in Jackson, Mississippi. See when he said, ' ; Well, we' ; ve proven the point,' ; depending back on the legal stuff again, that a Black man, that even animals can be moved across country without having to be moved from one car to another, right, but not Black people. And this is in the democratic country, you see. And they refuse to stand up for the rights of African American people -- they meaning the administration, they meaning more than the administration, it meant the citizenship of the United State and that they had no intention of being a democratic country. That was quite different, but it wasn' ; t enough for us. But we also were students -- well, I wasn' ; t a student, there were about six of us that weren' ; t students -- but the rest of them right. There were ten students that went to Montgomery, started to Montgomery that night. Police met them at the railroad tracks at the borderline, right, and told them they could not come across and go back home. The pretense was to turn around, but they never turned around, they came right back across those tracks that night, alright and asked people could they come into their houses and they said yes. ANDERSON: Hmm. VIVIAN: But in fact some of them took them on into whatever the city was, it' ; s not coming to me at the moment, when we crossed the border ANDERSON: Between Alabama and Tennessee? VIVIAN: Yeah, yeah. ANDERSON: Yeah, yeah. There' ; s a little, Ardmore, is a little community there. VIVIAN: Well, yeah, but we went on into--what was the major city? ANDERSON: Well, I don' ; t know what your group -- VIVIAN: Cause we had to leave it later. No, we had to within days, we left it. Not Birmingham, what was it, I' ; m trying to -- ANDERSON: Well, there -- VIVIAN: think of the name of the city. ANDERSON: I' ; ve never heard of y' ; all stopping in Huntsville, but -- VIVIAN: No, no -- ANDERSON: that' ; s -- VIVIAN: we went, we went into -- I don' ; t know why the name' ; s not coming to me, but -- ANDERSON: That' ; s OK. And I' ; m no help because I' ; m -- VIVIAN: but you' ; ll get it when it comes to you -- ANDERSON: Yeah, we' ; ll-- VIVIAN: And we met the we stayed in a dentist, a Black dentist' ; s home, and then -- ANDERSON: In Montgomery? VIVIAN: Yeah, in Montgomery. ANDERSON: Yeah. Yes, that was Dr -- VIVIAN: That' ; s it -- ANDERSON: Dr. Bryant. VIVIAN: OK, then the next morning we got up went to the bus station. ANDERSON: Mmm hmm VIVIAN: See what I mean? Well, I joined them at that point. ANDERSON: Oh, OK. VIVIAN: That' ; s where I got off on this because I had to go home and tell my wife. You know, we had children, and not to ask, ' ; Could I?,' ; as much as to, you know, we had to announce it to each other. We weren' ; t going to leave without -- we were going to enter Jackson, Mississippi -- ANDERSON: Yeah, you were kinda signing your life away, weren' ; t you? VIVIAN: That' ; s the point. And the wife and I' ; d always felt as though it was the same, I mean we were doing it together. We were not doing it separately. In fact, a new library and archives will be founded, is being founded, as we speak. And it' ; s going to be named after both of us. And the symbol of it, is she' ; s standing over me, so that we don' ; t have to worry about ' ; it' ; s CT' ; s thing,' ; you know? ANDERSON: Hmm. VIVIAN: Because we both wrote books but I mean she, it was meaningful to her, I just knocked mine off because I had to -- ANDERSON: Hmm VIVIAN: But I have more books in my collection. I mean but together we have about 4,500 books. But almost a thousand books that are part of my seminary on thinking and experiencing, preaching, and etcetera, I' ; m giving it right off the bat. But I' ; m trying to do something different. The best materials to express what was happening intellectually in the Black community is done through a magazine there, and so I' ; m putting the two together. And giving it and putting it into our muse. ANDERSON: Okay. VIVIAN: Because I' ; m concerned that they see the intellectual and spiritual side of Black America and the argents back and forth, but never, a separation of the two. Because this is what Martin led, a moral and spiritual movement. He didn' ; t lead a political movement and what nonviolence was about was moral and spiritual. It wasn' ; t about politics, right. And that' ; s two, Martin understood that politics is just not deep enough to deal with the fact of the depth of racism in this society. And that you have to go beyond it, right. What we should have done -- well, pardon me -- one of the things we could have done -- is as soon as we won was to attack the Christian church for not being Christian. Because it' ; s not. My point being is what do you tell people who believe in every tit and jot and tittle of the scriptures? What do you tell them about the Old Testament? Obviously got mistakes all the way through it and two or three, up to five, books of the New Testament were not written by the people they say did it, right? You don' ; t tell Black people that, either, by the way. You don' ; t preach it, in fact you try to not preach it, or use it as an auxiliary to the real stuff. But my point being is that we have a moral and spiritual movement based around the Sermon on the Mount, right, and John 15 16 and 17, John 15, 16, and 17, right, --is that the understandings of love as central. And as Jesus said, ' ; You can' ; t be my disciple unless you love one another.' ; Now, you can' ; t tell that to Southern Baptists, either. It took them 30 years after the death of Martin to even admit that racism was seriously wrong. In fact, more than seriously wrong, that hate in any form could not be accepted as Christianity. I was going to tell you some other stuff, but it' ; s not necessary ; let' ; s keep going. ANDERSON: Ha. Well, I would like to know-- VIVIAN: It' ; s not important -- ANDERSON: Any special recollections or insight you have into SCLC' ; s decisions about Birmingham. VIVIAN: About Birmingham. There was only one point, actually, that Fred Shuttlesworth was one of the people that Martin invited to SCLC. Now, there' ; s -- well, there' ; s two or three points -- but one is that the governor of this state before Wallace-- ANDERSON: Patterson. VIVIAN: Yeah, said that you couldn' ; t have an NAACP in this state. Well, when he said that, Fred said, ' ; that' ; s alright,' ; and he went around the country with a new name. And they realized that anytime they tried to stop one, we' ; d come up with a new name. But they' ; d be the same people and working on the same issues and going forward, right? But Fred did that, right? And he did it all up and down the state. That' ; s the tremendous change point for this whole state, right? And Fred had the courage to do anything. You know, when you walk into, with your family, into a group of white people who are ready to kill you and try to prove it and you keep coming back. I don' ; t mean to keep coming back at that moment, but that it doesn' ; t defeat you. And when they try to bomb you twice, right, blow you out of your bed with bomb and it still doesn' ; t stop you, right. Blow your church away and the people rebuild it. Then we' ; re talking about what do you do, to them, so that they don' ; t come back anymore? Well we had the answer in song, ' ; you can' ; t kill us all.' ; And we will be here, but we' ; re not gonna die on your terms, right, we' ; re gonna die on ours. And we will prove to you, right, by our dying, quite like Jesus did, there, that you really can' ; t stop what we' ; re saying. And you can' ; t end truth with violence. And see that' ; s the main thing we did is that we proved to this country that violence can' ; t end truth. And that we refused to allow anyone to think it for any length of time. And we will be the example for it. This is the meaning of nonviolent direct action. Mmm. Yeah. But that' ; s one of the points, in terms of answering your question -- ANDERSON: About Birmingham? VIVIAN: Yeah, about Birmingham, is when we came to this town to finish the job that Fred had done, right? We may have had to wait three years longer, had it not been for the two or three years that Fred had already put in, or three to five years that he' ; d already put in, you see what I mean? ANDERSON: Mmm hmm VIVIAN: And when we think of that, how important that really was -- ANDERSON: Mmm hmm VIVIAN: And that we went from, and here' ; s another one of those changes -- in the middle of the movement here, the election that was gonna be held, right? We would have been used by the head of the police and fire department, trying to run for mayor. He would have used us as being so for the other guy. He being the best racist, and the most racist of racists, that he could have been elected. But we were at the March on Washington. See and, boom he loses, and we come back to Birmingham and to win. ANDERSON: Mmm hmm VIVIAN: See, but that could have been that moment, that time, that period right there could have been very different. ANDERSON: So you all are very well aware of what all was going on with the municipal -- VIVIAN: Oh, oh, oh -- ANDERSON: change of government -- VIVIAN: Very, very. You couldn' ; t -- ANDERSON: Because, you know, you -- VIVIAN: You had to be, you had to be knowledgeable of everything. Pardon me -- ANDERSON: Well, I know would have been knowledgeable, but it often, in the mythologizing of all of this, a picture gets painted that puts you all on one side, like, ' ; well, we don' ; t care that they' ; re trying to change the form of government, we' ; ve got to do what we have to do,' ; and I' ; m sure that -- VIVIAN: Oh, no -- ANDERSON: was true on the one hand, but -- VIVIAN: In fact, we were concerned about the change -- ANDERSON: Yeah, tell me more about that. VIVIAN: The thing is that why let your enemy win, when you don' ; t have to? And when you can step out of that or whatever for a month or two. And while they' ; re having an election, you' ; re gaining the world on your side. See, it' ; s not a ' ; we' ; re doing what we have to,' ; in terms of Birmingham. It was because Birmingham was never our issue, America was our issue. ANDERSON: There you go. VIVIAN: And not just Black people, white people. Everybody has to be changed in this nation before a sin and an evil that deep in a culture, for so long, like 400 years, you don' ; t change that by simply saying ' ; we' ; re doing politics in the way that its always been done,' ; right? I mean, that' ; s kind of stupid. The point being is that you win by knowing your total situation. And you want to win nonviolently. You don' ; t want to win by trying, by even suggesting, that you' ; re trying to beat somebody out of the way, or you' ; re trying to shoot somebody out of the way, see what I mean. What we really taught is that you can change, make deep and important social changes, without violence. See, that was the important thing. ANDERSON: Alright. VIVIAN: The line I just used for you is a great line. And people like myself didn' ; t even say it until long after. ANDERSON: Mmm. VIVIAN: And not because we thought it but was afraid to say it, we didn' ; t even think about it. ANDERSON: Yeah, but it' ; s so helpful -- VIVIAN: Yeah-- ANDERSON: It' ; s helpful even now, because -- VIVIAN: Yeah, that' ; s the point. ANDERSON: I' ; ve heard you use the phrase " ; we won" ; and you know, but what was the win -- VIVIAN: Oh, sure-- ANDERSON: it was a national -- VIVIAN: Oh, of course, but you see, we couldn' ; t have won in any local place. One of the differences in strategy, SNCC thought about winning in a location. We thought about winning in the nation. See, ours was not to win a handful of Black people, only, right? But we realized that Black people could not win until they broke through white hatred. Now, how do you do that? -- you do it with love and truth and justice, alright. ANDERSON: Mmm. VIVIAN: But you must be willing to suffer for it. But you' ; ve had the cross on the wall all your life, so you knew that it wasn' ; t gonna come easy, and you knew there was life and death. And we didn' ; t understand why white Christians didn' ; t understand that, right? Everything about racism is anti-Christian. Right, there isn' ; t anything about racism that that is not anti-Christian. And yet the so-called Christian church of white America thinks it can represent Him. See, it' ; s just ridiculous. And this is why one of the first groups to come to our side was white Christian ministers, who came to walk with us in Selma, for instance, right. But the theologians at the seminaries were coming throughout the movement, right, showing support. But you see they didn' ; t have to face a white racist audience, because they were in seminaries where you argued those things out, talked them out, alright. And they were arguing for us at the places of teaching and concern, right. Well that was very very helpful because if the value-producing agencies, right, absorb truth, justice, and love as their high points then eventually the whole society has to say, either we' ; re for it or we' ; re against it. And when they say they' ; re against Christianity -- listen, in South Africa, the white Christian church came around years and years before we even got in the battle. Right? They knew they were wrong. Said it and you know preached it, and lost churches based on it, right. I remember going to the Southern Baptist seminary in Louisville, very early cause they asked me to come down to talk at the seminary, not at the church. ANDERSON: Big difference. VIVIAN: Big difference is right! And so I go, and I give the speech and I give the sermon, And one of the things I talk about, the only thing from the speech I really remember, was the fact that ministers can stand up there and do it, but eventually if they get rid of a minister that tells them the truth, they can never walk in that church without the blood flowing that they see flowing down the front of that pulpit. Because they have crucified a disciple of Jesus whether they like it or not. And if they want to come back and rub their nose in it every Sunday or try to run it away, their conscience won' ; t let them. They will know that they were totally wrong, and that they' ; re really not Christian. Because we' ; re not talking about some little thing about do you drink something on Sunday or Monday, or do you wear something [indistinguishable]. We' ; re talking about the very heart of the issue. That do you love somebody. That' ; s the way I teach sex education to our church, when they' ; re talking about gays for instance, right. I hate to say it that way, I wish there was another way to say it, right. Cause it' ; s already a negative, you know, the way you say it -- ANDERSON: Mmm hmm VIVIAN: Does did God create gays? And then did God love gays? And they know where they got to go. And I' ; ll say and where does God in the New Testament have anything to say about hating anybody, but much less killing? Putting down, destroying the personalities and drive of people. Now you tell me something about 4,000 years ago -- haven' ; t we learned anything in 4,000 years? -- but that' ; s Old Testament. Are you an Old Testament Christian or are you a New Testament Christian? And you can' ; t be both, because the concept of love won' ; t let you put up with that hate game. ANDERSON: We' ; ve got some recordings, I think there' ; s just one, and your voice is on one of them -- VIVIAN: Is that right? ANDERSON: It' ; s from a mass meeting, at one of the churches here in that spring, and you were pretty fired up then, too, like you are right now. VIVIAN: Ha ha. That proves, that' ; s proof it' ; s authentic. ANDERSON: Yep. That' ; s what I' ; m sittin' ; here thinking. It' ; s such a privilege to be sitting here with you. VIVIAN: Mmm thanks. ANDERSON: I don' ; t want them to get upset with me for wearing you out -- VIVIAN: By going over, right. ANDERSON: But I really, -- VIVIAN: One, one more question. ANDERSON: I really do want to ask you, yeah -- VIVIAN: And I' ; ll make it short. ANDERSON: you said, ' ; No. We never wanted to come back, SCLC, coming back to Birmingham, but you said there were reasons -- VIVIAN: Yeah -- ANDERSON: Can you speak to that for me? VIVIAN: Oh oh oh, the reasons is because we won. Is that the question you really asked me? ANDERSON: Well-- VIVIAN: See I was giving you two reasons why we were not having to, oh, see I was thinking. Was there a reason we had to come back to Birmingham? See, there wasn' ; t any reason we had to come back to Birmingham-- ANDERSON: No, that' ; s not my question. VIVIAN: Yeah. ANDERSON: Just whether -- I just want to know about the relationship of the organization to Birmingham, and -- VIVIAN: Oh, oh -- ANDERSON: and after this so-called victory -- VIVIAN: Oh yeah -- ANDERSON: I mean, I think it was a victory VIVIAN: Well, we saw it as a victory -- ANDERSON: Tell me more. VIVIAN: But you see we saw it as a victory, so we didn' ; t have to come back. ANDERSON: But life went on after ' ; 63 and -- VIVIAN: Yeah, but Fred was here. ANDERSON: Okay. VIVIAN: See and the troops were here, and we ended up with a white mayor. You see what I mean? Not immediately, but with a white mayor shortly afterwards. Right? We didn' ; t have to come back -- Fred was in charge. We just came back to get Fred over the hump. You see what I mean? It was never meant for us to stay in any place, alright? It' ; s that once the people had won, they could keep it, cause we had a strategy. You see what I mean? And that was the real thing, is that they knew what to do under a leader and a people that had been through the fire and had won. They weren' ; t going to give it up. See? ANDERSON: Mmm hmm. VIVIAN: What we had to do was be about another place, you see what I mean? That we could make as bold as this one. ANDERSON: So, for you, was that place Dallas County? VIVIAN: In Selma? Yeah, oh, in fact, that was just the next place. ANDERSON: That was the next step. VIVIAN: Oh oh oh, I' ; ll tell you what, I woke up after we' ; d known we' ; d won in Selma, right? I woke up one morning, and knew that this was going to be our last great battle. And I just woke up, and I was in my room, and I knew that was the last great battle we were going to fight around any of the city kinds of things. See, we' ; d fought in city after city after city to win legislation in one city or the other, get my point? We didn' ; t go to a city to win the city as much as just to win the legislation, that would free everybody, you see what I mean? Now, this was it, when we had the right to vote, that was the importance of Selma. When you put 20 million people where they can vote, that changes things. Alright? And that causes everybody else in the country like you to say ' ; whoo.' ; But that also changed everybody who had a gripe -- the women' ; s movement won, right, as a result of, I mean, we won it all at once. We got the law for the women' ; s movement, right? We got the law, remember there was a youth movement going on for a while? ANDERSON: Mmm hmm VIVIAN: Alright, is that we won, we won that. Right? And so that even the old folk, is the way I preach it, even the old folk, understood it well enough to call themselves the panthers. See that' ; s why the gays came, hmm? Had we lost, none of them would have been free. See what I mean? But having won, all of them are free. See? That' ; s the biggie, that' ; s what changed the nation. Very few people are left, and within, I' ; ll say 10, 15 years, nobody' ; ll be around that can even remember, what went on before. See that' ; s why your history is important. But let' ; s give it to you, is that Black youth can' ; t believe -- see, they can' ; t believe what was. It' ; ll be the same way with white people, short time. See? In fact, will not want you to remember that they, and that they reared their children, to hate folk. They' ; ll want to run you out of the house. You see what I mean? Because but you -- ANDERSON: Yeah, I know. VIVIAN: see, and that -- ha ha ha! You already know that, right? ANDERSON: Ha! VIVIAN: See but that that' ; s, the thing, that' ; s the importance. I know a guy, I know a family, where the woman of the family, really the grandmother of this guy, the mother of this fellow that I' ; m gonna talk about, told him if he--see because the name Vivian was in both cases, and he was saying we' ; re all relatives, he says and she says, ' ; if you tell folk that that my family were slavers,' ; he and says, ' ; I' ; ll cut you out of the money, I' ; m not gonna have anybody going around and saying that we owned slaves and stuff like that,' ; right. And I thought it was so good, because it makes the point so well, see. ANDERSON: Mmm hmm. VIVIAN: Is that ' ; whaaat?' ; She was gonna put him out of the out of her will, right? ANDERSON: Pretty classic. VIVIAN: To say that you' ; re gonna do that--Okay, sis, that' ; s it? ANDERSON: Thank you so much. VIVIAN: Alright. ANDERSON: Thank you, thank you. If we can' ; t have six hours-- VIVIAN: Yeah. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
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Rev. C.T. Vivian
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Reverend CT Vivian discusses his leadership in the Movement through SCLC. He worked closely with Dr. Martin Luther King in Selma and on the religious aspects of the Movement.
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Southern Christian Leadership Conference
Freedom Rides, 1961
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Horace Huntley
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Jerry Green
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5.4 April 20, 1995 Rev. Jerry Green 19950420G 0:28:46 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Bloody Sunday The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People Bombings--Alabama Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Jerry Green Horace Huntley Video 1:|1(2)|28(4)|54(5)|80(3)|113(4)|134(13)|154(10)|179(5)|200(5)|229(2)|261(7)|285(13)|309(4)|331(10)|360(3)|376(12)|394(11)|424(13)|435(1)|448(3)|468(5)|482(14)|496(4)|510(7)|528(10)|542(9)|562(11)|578(15) 0 https://youtu.be/y3YgrSFLKwc YouTube video English 61 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Rev. Jerry Green for the Oral History Project of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. I am Dr. Horace Huntley, today is April 20, 1995 and we are at Miles College. Introduction of Jerry Green 33.4810, -86.9089 17 Miles College 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org BCRI Homepage 83 Family Background Let me just start by asking some general kinds of questions. Where were you born and what year? Jerry Green talks about how many siblings he had and his parents educational background. Family Birmingham (Ala.) ; Cropwell (Pell City, Ala.) ; Woodlawn (Birmingham, Ala.) 164 Early Education-Parker High School What about you, how much education did you have? Jerry Green talks about his time at Parker High School and knowing Fess Whately, who at the time was his principal. Jewish cemeteries ; Night School Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Tuxedo Junction (Musical group) ; Whatley, John T. Fess (1895-1972) 248 Work and Marriage After High School What did you do after you finished high school? Jerry Green discusses being married for a couple years until becoming a widower, as well as starting his profession as a painter. Marriage ; Painter ; Widower 324 Community Background What community did you live in? Jerry Green talks about growing up in a mixed race community in the Birmingham neighborhood of Woodlawn. White Flight Woodlawn (Birmingham, Ala.) 405 Relationship to Birmingham Police Department What was your community's relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? How did the community get along with the police department? Jerry Green describes how there were good and bad police in Birmingham. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Police brutality--United States 436 Joining the NAACP Were you a member of any community organizations before you got involved with the Alabama Christian Movement? What about the NAACP? Jerry Green describes his role with the NAACP in getting Black people registered to vote, his experience registering to vote, and joining the Alabama Christian Movement once the NAACP was banned in Alabama. African Americans--Voter Registration Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 613 Joining the Alabama Christian Movement Tell me then how, and why did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement? Jerry Green talks about joining the Alabama Christian Movement after the NAACP was banned, and attending the first meetings where they had to kick people out who were not in favor of the movement. Mass Meetings Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Alford, Robert L. ; Old Sardis Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 690 Being a Guard During the Movement What was your role in the Movement? Were you one of those men who helped to guard the houses? Jerry Green discusses his role as a guard for the Alabama Christian Movement, protecting homes and churches. Bombings--Alabama ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Guard duty ; Treasurer Bethel Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Lewis, John L. ; Shortridge, Bill ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 985 Family and Church Involvement in the Movement So that must have meant that he was here for a special reason then. Somebody was protecting him. How did your family feel about your involvement with the Movement? Jerry Green explains how he received support from his family and the mass meetings they held at his church. Family ; Mass Meetings Groveland Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 1069 Recalling the Shooting of Alberta King Can you think of any event that stands out in your mind that you participated in during the Movement? If I ask you what is the most vivid memory you have of an event that took place during the Movement, what would that be? Jerry Green recalls how Martin Luther King Jr. had a hard time working in Dalton, Georgia, and the time when Alberta King got shot in a church. Dalton (Ga.) ; King, Alberta, 1904-1974 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Williams, Hosea, 1926- ; Young, Andrew, 1932- 1163 Benefits from The Movement Jerry Green explains that one of the major benefits from the movement was getting the Black community registered to vote. African Americans-Voter Registration Birmingham (Ala) ; Civil rights movement 1243 Marching in Selma So you were a part of the Selma marches as well, then? Jerry Green discusses about going down to Selma, Alabama to march. Police brutality--United States ; Voter Registration Bloody Sunday ; Marches--Selma (Ala.) 1314 Growing Up in Birmingham During the Movement Tell me what do you remember about growing up in Birmingham that would make you happy when the Movement came alone? Jerry Green explains that the movement in Birmingham is what put Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. on the map. African Americans--Segregation Albany (Ga.) ; Civil Rights Movement--Birmingham (Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1433 Describing Fred Shuttlesworth How would you describe Fred Shuttlesworth? Jerry Green describes Fred Shuttlesworth as a Birmingham man, someone who came out with a smile even during hard times. Racial violence ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Carraway Hospital (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Hillman Hospital ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; New York ; Peck, James ; Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 1561 Recalling Emory Jackson Okay. Reverend, is there anything else that you would like to add that we hadn't talked about today? Something that you would like for people to know about, where the Movement is concerned? Jerry Green recalls how Emory Jackson was a big part of the movement by reporting on what was going on at the time they were advocating. Sex Work Birmingham News ; Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Jackson, Emory O. (1908-1975) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1645 Conclusion of Interview Well, I want to thank you for coming out and sitting with us to tell us about what happened during the Movement and how Birmingham influenced the Movement. And, it's obvious that you have a lot of information about Fred Shuttlesworth and others. I want to thank you for taking your special time out to come and talk with us about it. Interview conclusion with Jerry Green. Oral History Rev. Jerry Green discusses being a member of the NAACP and then the ACMHR after the NAACP was outlawed. He marched on Bloody Sunday and served as a guard for folks involved in the Movement. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Rev. Jerry Green for the Oral History Project of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. I am Dr. Horace Huntley, today is April 20, 1995 and we are at Miles College. Thank you Rev. Green for coming out and sitting with us today. GREEN: You' ; re welcome. HUNTLEY: Let me just start by asking some general kinds of questions. Where were you born and what year? GREEN: I was born 1910, February 18. HUNTLEY: Where? GREEN: Out in a place called Woodlawn, but the place was Groveland. HUNTLEY: Okay. So that' ; s Birmingham. GREEN: Yes Birmingham. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? GREEN: I had another brother and two sisters. I don' ; t have any now. HUNTLEY: Okay. So you are the only one that' ; s left? GREEN: Yes. I was the puniest one and I am the only one left in the immediate family. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your parents. Where were they from? GREEN: Pell City. HUNTLEY: In Pell City, Alabama which is what, about a half hour from Birmingham? GREEN: Yes. Well, it' ; s Pell City but they were born in Cropwell. That' ; s not far from there. HUNTLEY: Yes. Just outside of Pell City. It' ; s in St. Clair County, though? GREEN: Yes. That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: Okay. What kind of education did your parents have? Did they go to school at all, that you remember? GREEN: Yes, I guess just a general education. HUNTLEY: What about you, how much education did you have? GREEN: I finished high school. HUNTLEY: Okay. Did you finish at Industrial High School? GREEN: Yes. It was Industrial then. They call it Parker now, but it was Industrial then. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Industrial High School? GREEN: They had day school and night school? HUNTLEY: Is that right? Was it a big school? GREEN: Yes it was a big school. It was the biggest one in Birmingham at that time? HUNTLEY: The only one in Birmingham is that right? Well do you remember Fes Whatley? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Is that right? So you knew Fes Whatley? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Well, were you in the band? GREEN: No. But I know he played -- Tuxedo Junction. HUNTLEY: What is your most fond memory of Industrial High School? Were there fun times or tough times? GREEN: Yes. Parker, let' ; s see now, he was a little fat man. HUNTLEY: Okay. He was the principal? GREEN: Yes. They buried him up there in that Jew cemetery. HUNTLEY: What did you do after you finished high school? GREEN: What did I do? HUNTLEY: Yes, sir. GREEN: I worked for myself. HUNTLEY: Well, what did you do? GREEN: I was a painter. HUNTLEY: Oh, so you painted for yourself. Okay. So you started your own business? GREEN: Yes, I was an interior -- I worked at one place. I didn' ; t start my business. I worked for [inaudible] & ; White. And South Town at 75 apartments over there on 23rd Street South. So about the time I got through with them, it would be time to go back over them again. HUNTLEY: So that' ; s what you started to do. Then you were a professional painter. GREEN: You might say that. HUNTLEY: How long did you do that? GREEN: Around twenty years. HUNTLEY: For about twenty years. Okay. How old were you when you got married? GREEN: When I got married? HUNTLEY: Yes, sir. GREEN: I was about twenty ' ; cause my wife died a little over two years afterward. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in? GREEN: I lived in the Groveland area but it was Woodlawn and Birmingham. HUNTLEY: You' ; ve always lived in that part of town? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Oh, so you are very well known in that area then. How would you describe the community? Who lived there, the racial make-up, the occupations of people? GREEN: Well, White people began to run when Black moved in as usual. HUNTLEY: But at the time that you lived there, in the days before the Movement, were there whites that lived in your community? GREEN: A few. Some said they wasn' ; t going to move. HUNTLEY: So some stayed? GREEN: Yes. It was kind of mixed up then, so they said they weren' ; t going to move. Some of them left. HUNTLEY: What kind of occupations did people have that live there? What kind of work did they do? GREEN: Well they did different things. Different kind of jobs. Pay wasn' ; t much then. HUNTLEY: What was your community' ; s relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? How did the community get along with the police department? GREEN: Yes, well, you got along pretty good. It' ; s always one good one and one bad one. HUNTLEY: Did you ever have any problems with them yourself? GREEN: No, I did not. HUNTLEY: Were you a member of any community organizations before you got involved with the Alabama Christian Movement? What about the NAACP? GREEN: Yes. I was in it but they banned it. That' ; s when Fred organized the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. Because they couldn' ; t come in the churches. That' ; s why he organized in the church, because they banned it out of Alabama. HUNTLEY: The NAACP? GREEN: Yes they banned it. HUNTLEY: Okay. Have you been involved with the NAACP? GREEN: Yes all of us were. HUNTLEY: Okay. What did you do? What did the NAACP do at that time? Were they registering people to vote? GREEN: Registering people to vote, yes. HUNTLEY: Were you a voter at the time, yourself? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Do you remember when you went to register to vote. HUNTLEY: Yes, old big White fellows up there. He said you can' ; t vote. And there was a little White boy over there, he let him vote. He told me to come back in three days. I went back the next day. He say " ; nigger, didn' ; t I tell you not to come back down here." ; Then, Judge Barren, he was living in that same apartment. I don' ; t know what he had on that piece of paper, ' ; cause I had a sheepskin coat and I just pulled it out and handed it to him. HUNTLEY: What did you pull out and hand to him? GREEN: Envelope. I don' ; t know what was in it. HUNTLEY: Where was the envelope from? GREEN: Judge Barron. And so he said " ; Hold up your hands." ; Swear me in right then. HUNTLEY: Didn' ; t ask you any questions? GREEN: Didn' ; t ask me nothing. I don' ; t know what was in the envelope. I wanted to look in but I didn' ; t. HUNTLEY: You got the envelope from a judge? GREEN: Yes. He lived in that same apartment I told you that I worked. HUNTLEY: Oh, that you were painting. And he gave you a letter to give to the -- GREEN: I told him what happened. That evening I met him and I told him what happened. And he said come to my apartment in a few minutes. I went up there in a few minutes and I had a big sheepskin coat and he just give me an envelope. It was sealed up. HUNTLEY: So evidently the letter said that you must have been a reputable citizen? GREEN: Bet the letter said " ; Let this nigger vote, I believe." ; I don' ; t know, but anyway there, he swore me in. HUNTLEY: Were you alone that day? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Nobody went with you? GREEN: No. HUNTLEY: So you were voting after that then? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: You were a registered voter? GREEN: Yes. He said " ; You know some big people in town, don' ; t you?" ; GREEN: I said " ; I sure do." ; HUNTLEY: Tell me then how, and why did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement? GREEN: Because they banned the NAACP. HUNTLEY: Okay. And you thought it was necessary to continue it through the organization of the Alabama Christian Movement? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were you at their first meeting that Fred called? GREEN: Yes. Robert Alford was pastor of old Sardis, up on the hill. HUNTLEY: That' ; s where the first meeting was held? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me what was a meeting like? What happened at the meetings? GREEN: Well, they liked to have to throw some of them out. Some of them old fellows. They didn' ; t want it, you know. HUNTLEY: They didn' ; t want the Movement? GREEN: No. They threw out two or three of them. It was on TV. HUNTLEY: Because they were against what Fred was trying to do? GREEN: Yes. Robert Alford was pastoring old Sardis at that time. HUNTLEY: Was he in favor? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: But there were some there that simply was not in favor of the Movement getting started? GREEN: You had some, but the majority was in favor. HUNTLEY: What was your role in the Movement? Were you one of those men who helped to guard the houses? GREEN: Yes, I guarded houses. Shuttlesworth house and Phifer' ; s house, Rev. Phifer. HUNTLEY: Tell me, how did that get started, the guarding of the houses? GREEN: Well, they had to have somebody to guard them because they were talking about bombing them. And they did bomb them and knocked that window out. There were four cross seats under the window over here. So when he said " ; Johnny L. Lewis," ; when he said " ; Hit the ground." ; Everybody hit the ground and covered up their head. And that glass just shattered all around them. HUNTLEY: You mean you were at the church?, You' ; re talking about the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church, when it was bombed? GREEN: No, not Sixteenth Street -- Bethel. HUNTLEY: Oh, when Bethel was bombed? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Okay. And you were there at that time? GREEN: Yes. And we all stonewalled. We hit the ground. HUNTLEY: And that' ; s the only thing that saved you, you hit the ground? GREEN: I don' ; t know whether it saved me, but we hit the ground. And I think Johnny L. Lewis, now, I think he' ; s dead. HUNTLEY: So how was that organized, the guarding of the homes and the churches? Was that well organized or did you just go out there when you got ready? GREEN: No. It was well organized. We knew who was going to be where and what time they was going to be and how many hours they were going to be and the next one knew when to come on like that -- in shifts. HUNTLEY: How long did you do that? Once a week or -- GREEN: No. Every night. HUNTLEY: Every night? So you would get off your job and then you would go on to someplace where you would protect someone' ; s home, or the church? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Who were some of the other men that were involved with that effort? GREEN: Who was the other? HUNTLEY: Who were some of the other men that were helping you to do that? GREEN: Yes. Some women too. What that lady name? It was some women too. HUNTLEY: They helped? Women helped to guard the homes? Is that right? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Well, were you armed? GREEN: Shorty was the treasurer. No, we were not armed. HUNTLEY: You were not armed? Didn' ; t have guns? You just sat watching? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Okay. Tell me a little about Mr. Shortridge? What was his responsibility? GREEN: Shorty was the treasurer and those women used to go on with him. him own. Boy that was a time then. So much I can' ; t think all of it. HUNTLEY: Did you ever go to jail? GREEN: I didn' ; t go to jail. HUNTLEY: Didn' ; t go to jail. But did you demonstrate? Did you march in the demonstrations? GREEN: I marched in the demonstrations, but I didn' ; t never go to jail. HUNTLEY: Tell me. Can you explain what those demonstrations were like? GREEN: Yes. I tell you they were not coward folks. HUNTLEY: You were brave if you were out there? GREEN: Yes. Because see you didn' ; t have a gun, nothing, but yourself. And we worked in shifts. If I knew you were, he knew where I was. We knew how many hours we were going to work and just sit up and guard the house. HUNTLEY: What did you do while you set there and guarded the houses? GREEN: Just sat there. HUNTLEY: Did you talk about the Movement? GREEN: We just sat there. Yes, we just sat there. See, Shuttlesworth, they intended to pick him up in a shovel. They blowed up the toilet stool. Blowed up everything. And Shuttlesworth' ; s wife and children were around in the other room. It didn' ; t bother them. But the mattress went up and come down and Shuttlesworth walked out Monday. HUNTLEY: So that must have meant that he was here for a special reason then. Somebody was protecting him. How did your family feel about your involvement with the Movement? GREEN: They were for it. HUNTLEY: Were they involved? Did they go to the mass meetings? GREEN: No. They didn' ; t go. HUNTLEY: But they didn' ; t discouraged you from going? GREEN: No. They knew it wouldn' ; t do any good no way. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of? GREEN: Groveland. HUNTLEY: Groveland? GREEN: G-R-O-V-E-L-A-N-D. HUNTLEY: Were you associate pastor there? HUNTLEY: All right. Okay. Was your pastor and other members of your church involved in the Movement? GREEN: Some of them were. I used to pastor it. Some of them were, but not all of them. HUNTLEY: When you were not the pastor, was the pastor involved with the Movement? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, did they have mass meetings at your church? GREEN: They had mass meetings at all churches then because that' ; s where they was having them. HUNTLEY: Yes. So they did have them at Groveland? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you think of any event that stands out in your mind that you participated in during the Movement? If I ask you what is the most vivid memory you have of an event that took place during the Movement, what would that be? GREEN: When King come from them Negroes in Dalton, Georgia had -- they wouldn' ; t work with King. They had turned him down. It was King and Andrew Young and Hosea Williams come to Birmingham. And this came. They were walking arm in arm to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: And that' ; s what you remember most about the struggle? GREEN: Yes and Ms. King, you know, she was shot. She was playing the organ and shot and Daddy King came and he was shot. So they said don' ; t -- that boy said " ; he could have killed him, but he said Daddy wouldn' ; t want you to do that. HUNTLEY: Yes. This was when Mrs. King, Dr. King' ; s mother was shot. That' ; s what you are referring to. What would you consider to be the benefits of the Movement to your family, the community and to the nation? How did the Movement benefit all of us? GREEN: Well, it benefitted us by being there for one thing. You know they were there. HUNTLEY: So you knew that the Movement was there and you knew that the Movement was moving on? GREEN: Moving on. HUNTLEY: Yes. Would you say that the Movement was successful? GREEN: I would. HUNTLEY: How did it change things? GREEN: Well, for Negroes especially. We had more rights ' ; cause when you voted, that got you more rights. Everyone we could get to vote or register. Down in the Black belt. There weren' ; t very few Negroes voting down there in Selma and around. But we got the vote at Brown Chapel -- that church down there. We got them to register and vote. HUNTLEY: So you were a part of the Selma marches as well, then? GREEN: Yes. Selma to Montgomery. HUNTLEY: Did you actually march from Selma to Montgomery? GREEN: Yes. We come from oh, way down here. But I didn' ; t march all the way. I rode on back of the wagons. HUNTLEY: Were you there the day that the state troopers met the people on the bridge? GREEN: No. I wasn' ; t there that day. But I was there the next time. Yes. That' ; s where they met them at. They call that Bloody Sunday. That' ; s where they beating them up and everything. But those same policemen they welcomed them that next year. HUNTLEY: Yes. They had been ordered to protect the marchers at that point, right? GREEN: Yes. On account of voting. Negroes was voting. White man wanted a vote. He couldn' ; t tell a Black vote from a White vote. HUNTLEY: Tell me what do you remember about growing up in Birmingham that would make you happy when the Movement came alone? GREEN: Well, like I said, Birmingham was a segregated city. And when the Movement came along, we had more freedom on account of we voted. HUNTLEY: What was segregated? How did segregation actually operate? GREEN: Well, if you was a Negro, say for instance on the street cars. If you was a Negro, they had a rod up there. You sit over here and the white folks sit over there even if you standing up. Just like Rosa Parks. Rosa Parks was tired and she didn' ; t get up. So we got a lot of benefits out of it. HUNTLEY: So you would say that it was successful? Would you think that Birmingham as a city had a real impact upon the success of the Civil Rights Movement overall? GREEN: Yes. Birmingham is what made King. That' ; s where he got his recognition from -- from Birmingham. HUNTLEY: So they couldn' ; t do in Albany, Georgia? GREEN: No. They couldn' ; t do. Those negroes, turned their back on it. They couldn' ; t do it and he was glad to get somewhere to come. Shuttlesworth was King' ; s secretary and they brought over there -- brought him over to us and he was glad to get somewhere to come. That' ; s the reason I say, King was known nationwide, but Birmingham made King. Give him his biggest boost. HUNTLEY: How would you describe Fred Shuttlesworth? GREEN: Fred Shuttlesworth, his mother lived in Oxmoor. He' ; s a Birmingham man. But Fred Shuttlesworth it ain' ; t hardly no way to describe that man. He' ; s somebody' ; s man. He was then and is now. They -- five of them went up to a White school and they beat him with chains. HUNTLEY: At the Phillips High School? GREEN: Yes. Beat him with chains. HUNTLEY: Were you there that day? GREEN: No. And they put him in jail. We were going to sleep out there that night if they didn' ; t let him out. They put him in jail and the next morning he come out smiling. That' ; s right. That' ; s why them marks -- them marks on him now. He come out smiling. HUNTLEY: Was that the time that his wife was stabbed? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you -- you went up with him during the time he was attacked? Were you there with him at the time? GREEN: I wasn' ; t right with him. No. You know we were back. Bull Conner was supposed to send the policemen. He didn' ; t send any police. They Peck -- Peck was a rich man' ; s son. But he was down here with him from New York and they bloodied his head. We carried him over to the Carraway and they wouldn' ; t take him. So we carried him to Hillman. They said two Negroes, dressed up and Negro brought him and give him a dime and told them to call him. That would mean Montgomery. HUNTLEY: This was when James Peck came in with the Freedom Riders? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Okay. GREEN: He--Montgomery. HUNTLEY: Okay. Reverend, is there anything else that you would like to add that we hadn' ; t talked about today? Something that you would like for people to know about, where the Movement is concerned? GREEN: I think Emory Jackson was fighting for freedom, like I said, before anybody. His sister couldn' ; t get a job. You know, she had to go to Florida. She couldn' ; t get a teaching job here on account of that. And so her momma said, she was going to give them something they could take -- an education. So like I said, Jackson really was fighting before anybody. And Fred would tell him where we going to meet because we was meeting from church to church. And Jackson would put it in his paper where we going to meet at every week. What time and where we going to meet. And, then, he go up there and carried one to Bull Conner. Every Monday Bull Conner had some pimps there and we knew it. Say they wouldn' ; t have to tell him. HUNTLEY: So you tell him yourself so he wouldn' ; t have to worry about getting it from the pimps? GREEN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Well, I want to thank you for coming out and sitting with us to tell us about what happened during the Movement and how Birmingham influenced the Movement. And, it' ; s obvious that you have a lot of information about Fred Shuttlesworth and others. I want to thank you for taking your special time out to come and talk with us about it. HUNTLEY: Well, I was glad to. I don' ; t know, I was trying to think about. If I think of anything else, I will. HUNTLEY: Okay. If you think of anything else, we' ; ll be glad to come out and sit with you again. But again, I appreciate you taking the time out. And all I need to know is what' ; s your secret to staying here 85 years? GREEN: That ain' ; t no secret. Doing to others as you would have them do unto you. HUNTLEY: Okay. GREEN: Love thy neighbor as thyself. You do unto other, you ain' ; t going to do nothing bad to yourself. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. GREEN: And if you do unto others as you would want them to do, I think you' ; ll be all right. HUNTLEY: Okay. I certainly appreciate it. Thank you Rev. Green. And we will hopefully talk with you again sometime. GREEN: Yes, I hope so. HUNTLEY: Okay. Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JGreen1995.xml JGreen1995.xml
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Rev. Jerry Green
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Rev. Jerry Green discusses being a member of the NAACP and then the ACMHR after the NAACP was outlawed. He marched on Bloody Sunday and served as a guard for folks involved in the Movement.
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19950420G
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Bloody Sunday
The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People
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1995-04-20
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video
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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Johnnie Smith
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JSmith1995.xml
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United Mine Workers of America
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5.4 May 4, 1995 Johnnie L. Smith Interviewed on May 4, 1995 19950504S 1:09:39 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) United States Steel Company United Mine Workers of America Johnnie Smith Horace Huntley Video 1:|1(2)|21(8)|61(6)|71(3)|92(5)|102(11)|119(4)|127(15)|137(11)|153(14)|172(11)|186(2)|196(9)|211(7)|224(5)|236(15)|251(5)|266(2)|279(7)|296(12)|307(7)|321(11)|335(17)|352(3)|371(3)|393(6)|406(4)|418(13)|441(4)|456(5)|468(5)|486(2)|501(6)|515(8)|531(15)|544(3)|562(2)|583(3)|603(5)|624(10)|653(1)|680(1)|692(4)|707(8)|721(5)|737(3)|745(3)|766(10)|786(1)|797(8)|818(7)|830(9)|847(14)|860(6)|873(8)|884(1)|896(14)|907(8)|912(13)|926(10)|941(7)|951(6)|967(2)|978(12)|989(15)|1000(1)|1010(10)|1020(4) 0 https://youtu.be/Mcv32BD_EMg YouTube video English 70 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mr. Johnnie L. Smith for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College and it is May 4, 1995. Introduction to Johnnie Smith. 33.4810, -86.9089 17 Miles College 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 95 Family Background Thank you. I just want to start by asking some general questions about you and your family and your upbringing. Are you from Birmingham? Johnnie Smith talks about growing up with 6 siblings and his parents who worked a farm in Butler County. African American families ; Agriculture Birmingham (Ala.) ; Butler County (Ala.) 484 Recalling Childhood Tell me about your childhood. What do you remember about your childhood in Butler? Johnnie Smith explains how his parents raised him so he wouldn't get in fights or in trouble. Adult child abuse victims Birmingham (Ala.) ; Butler County (Ala.) 611 1st Time Coming to Birmingham Tell me about that. When you came to Birmingham the first time, why did you come? Johnnie Smith talks about leaving Butler county and going to live with a friend in Birmingham. Homecoming ; Night school Butler County (Ala.) 756 Working in Birmingham Well, when you first got here, did you work? Johnnie Smith talks about his first job mining for steel at this cement company in Birmingham. Cement ; Manual labor--mining--coke United States Steel Company 860 Cooking at Brookside Mine After you left there then did you go to the plant? Johnnie Smith talks about being a cook at the Brookside Mines. Horse and Buggy ; Mines--Cook ; Nicknames ; Soldiers ; Strikes Brookside (Ala.) ; Pittsburgh (Pa.) 1536 Mining at Hampton Slope So you went back to Butler? Johnnie Smith explains what it was like working in the Hampton Slope mines. Coal ; Mule Docena ; Hampton Slope Mine ; Pratt City (Birmingham, Ala) ; Riverside Cafe (Birmingham, Ala.) ; United Mine Workers of America 2046 Fighting With a White Coworker And I said, " ; That mule is going to run out of here, go out there and get killed." ; And I said, " ; It's going to be up to you, not me." ; So he went back and told old man Larry. And old man Larry came up there and jumped on me, you know. And I told him, I said, " ; Man, you don't know what you are talking about. You don't know who you're talking to." ; And I say, " ; You're losing time." ; And I said, " ; If you want to talk to anybody, you talk to Mr. Shaeffer and leave me alone." ; He just kept a mouthing and I just got up and took one of them sprags and give it to him up side his head. Johnnie Smith talks about the time he got in a fight with his white coworker and how he wasn't able to come back after that. Mule ; Physical violence--Workplace--Race Brookside (Ala.) ; Pratt City (Birmingham, Ala.) 2273 Working at the Mill This is in the mill? Johnnie Smith talks about his time working at the steel mill and how they had a union. African Americans--Marriage ; District Representative ; Fortified union ; Steel mill Ensley (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Howard, Asbury (1907-1986) ; United Steel Workers of America 2441 Joining the Movement So when then did you get involved in the Movement? Johnnie Smith discusses how he was introduced to Fred Shuttlesworth at the mass meetings and how he played his part by advertising the movement at his work. Advertising ; Mass Meetings Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham Water Works (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Gardner, Edward ; New Hope Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Sloss Furnace Company 2748 Bombings of Churches and Homes Right. Were you involved when Bethel was bombed -- Shuttlesworth's home was bombed? Johnnie Smith explains being a watchman for the churches after the bombings happened. Bombings--Alabama ; Lawyer Billingsley, Orzell (1924-2001) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 2887 Participating in the Demonstrations Did you participate in demonstrations? Johnnie Smith talks about how he helped collaborate with Fred Shuttlesworth, as well as participated in marches and demonstrations on the public streetcars. Arrest ; Marching--Civil Rights Movement--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police ; Streetcar--Segregation Gardner, Edward ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Woodlawn (Birmingham, Ala.) 3076 Family and Church Support of Movement Did other members of your family participate? Johnnie Smith explains how he was the only one in his family involved in the movement and how his church came in later to support him. Bombings--Alabama ; Family Ensley (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Moore Presbyterian Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 3178 Advising for Alabama Christian Movement Well, you then served basically as an advisor for the Movement and to Shuttlesworth? Johnnie Smith talks about the time that Fred Shuttlesworth went down to the high school to try to deal with segregation and how he was beat with bicycle chains. Racial Violence ; Segregation--Schools--Alabama ; Sit-ins Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Selective Buying Campaign ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Woodlawn High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 3291 Encountering Bull Conner The worse we had was, we all called him " ; Bull" ; but his name was Eugene Conner. He was the mayor down there. And the city ought to have went broke because he ordered so many pistols. Everybody, every White face he could find to wear one of them guns, he'd give him a gun. Johnnie Smith recalls going to talk to Bull Conner and he explains how Bull was bribing preachers with alcohol in order to get information about the Movement. Bribery--Whiskey ; Senior Citizens Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Montgomery (Ala.) 3645 Recalling the 1963 Demonstrations Let me take you back just a bit. What do you remember about the demonstrations in '63 when Dr. King came into Birmingham? Johnnie Smith explains the time when Dr. King's life was in danger during the 1963 demonstrations and how they had to get him out of there in an Army vehicle. Army Vehicle ; Assassination scheme ; Executive Committee 16th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Kelly Ingram Park (Birmingham, Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 3714 Recalling Highlights of The Movement What were the highlights of that time? Johnnie Smith mentions the time that Martin Luther King Jr. met with President Johnson and how George Wallace was insulted by the gesture. Johnson, Lyndon B. (1908-1973) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Wallace, George C. (George Corley), 1919-1998 3868 Contribution of Birmingham to Civil Rights Movement What do you think was the contribution of Birmingham to the Movement? Overall civil rights movement? Johnnie Smith explains that one of the benefits that came from the movement was taking away some of the power that white authority figures had over Black and brown people. Power--White Police Officers Johnson, Lyndon B. (1908-1973) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 3960 Churches Benefiting the People Well, these obviously were some very turbulent times and we have covered a lot today. Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with that stands out in your mind that's related to the civil rights movement? Johnnie Smith explains that he would like to see churches continue to stand up for civil rights. Charity--Churches--Jesus Christ 4042 Conclusion of Interview That's right. Well, I certainly appreciate you taking the time out today to come and sit and talk with us. You have been quite a help to us. Let me just ask you one other question. Do you have any items that are related to the Movement or to the development of Birmingham that you would like to donate to the Institute? If you do have, we will be more than glad to talk with you about them. Interview conclusion with Johnnie Smith. Oral History Johnnie L. Smith discusses his extensive mining career before getting involved in the Movement. He became an advisor to the ACMHR, including meeting with Bull Connor. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mr. Johnnie L. Smith for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College and it is May 4, 1995. Mr. Smith, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit and talk with us today. Welcome. SMITH: Happy to. HUNTLEY: Thank you. I just want to start by asking some general questions about you and your family and your upbringing. Are you from Birmingham? SMITH: I' ; m from Birmingham, now, I guess. HUNTLEY: Yes, sir. But where were you born? SMITH: I was born in Butler County. HUNTLEY: Butler County. And how long did you live in Butler County? SMITH: Well, I was born and reared there. HUNTLEY: And you came to Birmingham about 1919 and then you went back to... SMITH: Right, I came into Birmingham around 1919 or 1920, somewhere along there. HUNTLEY: You were born in what year? SMITH: I was born in 1900. HUNTLEY: So that makes you -- SMITH: July the 5th, 1900. HUNTLEY: That makes you 95 years old? SMITH: Right. HUNTLEY: I need to know the secret. After we get off, I want you to tell me the secret. SMITH: Well, I tell you, it' ; s a good one. HUNTLEY: It' ; s a good one? SMITH: It' ; s a good one, yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me a little about your family? Did you have brothers and sisters? SMITH: Yes. I have -- it was four boys and three girls. HUNTLEY: Were you the oldest? SMITH: I' ; m the youngest. HUNTLEY: You were the youngest? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your parents. SMITH: Well, my mother and father, you know, I don' ; t know anything about their marriage or their fellowshipping but I know he and my mother were good providers for their family. We never worked under the sound of a White person' ; s voice in our lives. HUNTLEY: So your family owned their property? SMITH: Well, my daddy, after he and my mother married, he bought a place for twenty-five cents an acre. He bought a hundred and seventeen acres for twenty-five cents an acre. Well, back in those days, I learned that those White people didn' ; t allow Colored people to buy land. I don' ; t know whether you ever heard that or not? HUNTLEY: I heard it. Yes I have. SMITH: Well, you didn' ; t know whether it was true or not. HUNTLEY: Right. But he did, he was able to buy land? SMITH: My daddy was the type of man who believed in the Lord and the Lord would take all fear away from him. And that' ; s what he did and he just pushed those kind of things aside and went ahead on and did what he -- all he wanted to know was it right. HUNTLEY: So, was he a farmer? SMITH: Farmer. Yes he was. HUNTLEY: What did he farm? SMITH: He raised cotton, corn, peanuts, sweet potatoes, sugar cane, made syrup. He would never kill under eight hogs. He killed around eight hogs or maybe nine. It depended on how well his family was accumulating, you know. So he was a great hand on looking down through the scopes of time and trying to put another piece of bread there for another mouth. HUNTLEY: Did he have people outside of the family working for him? SMITH: No. Just his family. Well, he had one man that -- people in those days had -- they didn' ; t have a home, no where to stay. And if they could slip away so I' ; m learning, I did learn that they could slip away from over there way over yonder somewhere and go over here and kind of hide out. HUNTLEY: So you had a person like that that lived on your father' ; s farm? SMITH: Yes. Well, he came over there and I was -- he stayed with my father long enough for me to grow up and get acquainted with him. HUNTLEY: Did he have a family? SMITH: No. He didn' ; t have a family. But he was a quiet young man when he came. So sooner or later when he left my father, he married and he had a very nice family and he went away and I had just got kind of acquainted with him and he went away. HUNTLEY: Did he buy himself property when he left your father? SMITH: Well, I didn' ; t know the history of his life. But he came back. He came back when I was just about grown ; I was around 15 or 16 years old. HUNTLEY: Tell me, what was it like growing up in Butler County, Alabama. SMITH: Well, I' ; ll tell you what it was like back in my day. I called it peace and happiness because I didn' ; t know anything else. And you made your life about what you wanted it to be. It' ; s not too much different then than now because you see some people now. They live, like nothing ever bothers them. Look like they are not ever in a bad condition. And I learned the ways and means on that is just the way you manage. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your childhood. What do you remember about your childhood in Butler? SMITH: Well, my childhood days my daddy and mother tried to teach me the difference in right and wrong which is with me today. If I did wrong, my mother would -- she would set them dates down. My father wouldn' ; t. He would just strike a match on a piece of cotton with kerosene in it. He would get on you right then and there. But my mother would put them up. She sometimes, would get up as high has a dozen. She would catch you in the belt so you couldn' ; t run, you know. Of course, it' ; s going to be pretty warm standing there, you know. And she would whip you for every one of them. She would talk to you and whipped you for this one and then tell you the next one came up she would tell you about that. She whipped you for every one of them. (offenses) HUNTLEY: Today that would be child abuse, yes? SMITH: Yes. That' ; s right. But it was good for us. I never been in jail in my life and they didn' ; t allow us to fight. Of course that was kind of a hard job to keep us down from fighting because we' ; d fight but if they got the news then you would nobody. HUNTLEY: You first came to Birmingham when you were 17. You stayed in Birmingham for a brief period and then you went back -- SMITH: Oh, I stayed in Birmingham about three or four years. HUNTLEY: And then you went back to Butler and then at 26 you came back to Birmingham? SMITH: Right. I went back one day in early in January 1922 HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. When you came to Birmingham the first time, why did you come? SMITH: Well, I came because it was a man lived not too far from us. HUNTLEY: In Butler County? SMITH: In Butler, yes. And his family and my family, brothers and father and all of them, we was very close, they moved to Birmingham and their name was Savannah Golson. And they moved to Birmingham. He had some young men. They was up with my older brothers. My older brothers and them was very good friends. So during the homecoming at their church, they came home for the homecoming and , he came over, just like he always had been doing -- came over to visit with us while he was down and he told me, he asked me did I want to go back home with him. I told him, " ; Yeah." ; And I said, " ; But I know my dad won' ; t let me go." ; He said, " ; I' ; ll talk with him and see." ; My daddy, he asked my daddy to let me go back with him. You know, we would take care of him. My daddy said, " ; I don' ; t know about that. I' ; ll have to think about it." ; But sooner or later, my daddy, along with my help, agreed to let me go and I went back up there to stay. And I stayed with them. HUNTLEY: What did you do when you came to Birmingham? Had you finished school down there? SMITH: No. I hadn' ; t finished school down there. You know, we just only had a three months school. And I didn' ; t finish school down there, but we had a night school here in Birmingham and of course, I didn' ; t take too much about it right at the present time because I was coming into contact with things I never seen before and it was between me and the schooling. HUNTLEY: Well, when you first got here, did you work? SMITH: No. My fellow friends took care of me. Then, I got a job with a place they called -- a company they called Cement and they made coke and they unloaded cars. There would be four men to each car and, you know, they would drop the doors down here at the bottom and then the men would get in there and take them shelves and try to break it loose and when it started breaking loose, they had a way they could break that a loose and could start it to going -- that stuff would shoot out there before you know it. Well, I had to learn that. They would be through with that car. There were on tourneys and gone to the next car. And I' ; m over here scuffling trying to get my side broke loose. So one fellow, he was nice enough to show me how to do it. He said, " ; First thing you do is you, put your shovel down here, center into the door at the bottom and just work your shovel like that, you know." ; And he said, " ; It will go on down through that loose coal and it got down there and it' ; ll break the bottom loose. When you break the bottom loose the rest of it was going to come out. So it wasn' ; t long before I learned it. HUNTLEY: Did you stay on that job then until -- SMITH: Well, I didn' ; t stay too long. I had a lot of friends from home in the plant working for U. S. Steel. That' ; s where I wanted to go, with them where they was. So I didn' ; t stay over there too long. HUNTLEY: After you left there then did you go to the plant? SMITH: I went over to the plant to get a job. And it would be all the way from 300 to 400 to 500 people standing around out there waiting to get a job. The employment man would come out on a car platform and he would look over the crowd, you know, and they were hiring men then not less than an 180 from that to 200 pounds. Because they didn' ; t have the convenience to have things with machines like they have now. Back then they had to have big men -- strong men to do that type of work. And he looked over there and here I' ; m sitting over there looked like I just got through eating breakfast or somewhere, just got through playing in the sand or something, and he named me. He named me " ; Babyface." ; Looked all through there and after he spotted me and I found out he knew me, I' ; d stand behind somebody else and thought I could get in through lump sum. When he called," ; I want 150, 200, maybe 300, I would get a chance to go in with the crowd. But that opportunity never did present itself. And he always -- he eventually he came down to me. He said, " ; Babyface, come here." ; I would stand back. I wouldn' ; t accept my name he give me. So different ones would say, " ; No." ; And then somebody would point to me and he would say, " ; Yeah, yeah, yeah, him. Come here." ; So I went up there. He said to me, he says, " ; Now listen." ; He says, " ; You just cannot do this work and I' ; m not going to hire you to come out here and get hurt." ; And he said, " ; The only way that I' ; ll hire you is your parents would be in a condition so that they' ; ll need your assistance and your help and they come dependent on you and we might give you a little light job like that. But otherwise, I ain' ; t going to hire you." ; He says, " ; You just loosing time coming up here." ; I said, " ; Lord, have mercy." ; It was so bad to hear that. And so, all right. I accepted it and went on. But I would still go up. I didn' ; t go up every day but I would go up. So sooner or later I went up one day. He looked over and said, " ; Hey Babyface, glad to see you. Got something for you. Come here." ; Oh, man. You ought to have saw the crowd behind me, you know, following me up there. I went on up there. He said, " ; Go on in my office and sit down. I' ; ll be in there a minute." ; So he stayed on there. He come in. I was wondering to myself what on earth had he found for me. And it was a cooking job. You see, they had what they called strikes of which I didn' ; t know what they was talking about, a strike. Well, -- HUNTLEY: Work stoppage? SMITH: Yes. Right. And this was out here on a mining camp at a place they called Brookside. And the company had a mine out there and they had a little -- what they called a little wild cat strike. And the men were going to work on. The company didn' ; t pay something like that too much attention then. And the company, what they used, back in that day, they used soldiers for their protection. They put them soldiers out through them woods around their plant and they would keep down orders. So, I went out there. I didn' ; t know anything about no strike or nothing. I went out there and they had a place for me to stay and the employment man wanted to know could I cook. I said, " ; Yeah, I can cook." ; He said, " ; Well, Babyface, if you can cook, you got a job. They want a cook out here at Brookside." ; Well, I had hung around my mother long enough to learn how to cook a little bit. So I went out there. HUNTLEY: You were not aware that there was a strike at the time? SMITH: Oh, no. I didn' ; t know anything about a strike. I went out there and I stayed. I stayed from the latter part of August up until Christmas and my superintendent was named Henderson. Old man Henderson came around and checked up on the fellows from Edgewater, Bayview, Docena, Number Eight, Number Two, from all the mines the company had to break this strike. Just reach up there and get so many here and so many there until they come out there and break this strike. So, he said come out there and I was in there working. So I had two helpers. All I had to do was season and fix the food and my two helpers when I put it on, they seen about it. And all I had to do then was to just look over it once and a while and I stretched out. I had it pretty nice. I was just lonesome. HUNTLEY: So how long did you stay? SMITH: I stayed out there about four months. HUNTLEY: Then what did you do? SMITH: Well, he came out and told me, he said, " ; Now, Smith, if everybody goes home to their family, " ; we' ; re going to shut down the beanery and you can go home." ; I say, " ; Okay." ; I just prayed everybody went. And man it was about two dozen families that stayed. They didn' ; t go. Then he came around to me and wanted to know from me what did I want to cook. I told him, I said, " ; Get me a half a barrel of turkeys and a half of a barrel of hens and mix them up." ; So I cooked the turkeys and the hens for those that stayed and fixed dinner for them. Well, only one day for Christmas with the company, you know. And I stayed there and fixed that for them. And he told me, he said, " ; Now quick as everybody get back and get everything back to normal, I' ; m going to give you a horse and buggy and let you go to Birmingham and spend the day. See the company didn' ; t have cars and trucks like they have now. They had horse and buggies. So, I was looking forward to that. Man, it went on and the assistant was named Ross Black. Mr. Black was a very nice man. He comes around one day about two or three weeks after Christmas and whispered in my ear. He said, " ; Listen, don' ; t build your hopes up so high. I know you want to go." ; And I turned and looked at him with my face full of frowns. I didn' ; t know what he was going to say. But he told me, he says, " ; Mr. Henderson ain' ; t going to let you go, but don' ; t tell him I said so." ; I said, " ; What?" ; Well, the Southern came through there in the morning about 9:00 o' ; clock coming in from wherever it was coming from. And so I said -- one of those boys was named Val and the other was named Willie. I said, " ; Well, I' ; m going to put breakfast on y' ; all." ; And I said, " ; Y' ; all take care and I' ; m going to Birmingham this morning." ; They said, " ; Well, when you coming back." ; I say, " ; I' ; ll be back this evening." ; So I put dinner on and everything and I went out there and got on the Southern. But when I went through those scopes of woods up there -- I had to go through a scope of woods. They went -- those fellows went to hollering and they called them " ; black legs." ; They went to hollering and say " ; Hey, look out. Here we got one." ; Talking about me. I just kept walking just like I didn' ; t know what they were talking about. Which I didn' ; t know in a sense. And I went on. So they cussed around me. After I got up before I turned down the hill to go down to the little station, they cussed around me and asked me and said, " ; What, you been over there to the mine?" ; And I said, " ; Yeah." ; And the thought came to me immediately. " ; What you doing over there? You know we on a strike?" ; I said, " ; I' ; m not working over there." ; I said, " ; I got a cousin live over there. I' ; m just down here visiting him." ; I said, " ; I' ; m from Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania." ; They said, " ; Oh, well, one said, " ; Hey, look at his hands. You can tell whether he work in the mine or not." ; Well, my hand was in the water, you know what they look like. They looked at my hand, " ; Oh, let him go, he' ; s all right." ; I went on. I said, " ; I got to come back, now because I left my luggage there." ; " ; Whenever you get ready I' ; ll tell all of them, just let you through." ; I said, " ; Thank you." ; So, I went on through. Went on and came back and when I got back -- I got back at supper time. Mr. Henderson said to me, heard them all hollering, " ; Oh, here the cook, here' ; s the cook, he' ; s back." ; He came to the door out of his office and looked at me and got my attention. And he said, " ; Where you been?" ; I said, " ; I been to Birmingham." ; Who told you to go?" ; I said, " ; You." ; He said, " ; I didn' ; t say when." ; I said, " ; I see you wasn' ; t gone to say when, I said when." ; HUNTLEY: How long did you stay after returning? SMITH: Oh, well, after I got back. He told me, he say, " ; You stay here until the morning. Don' ; t let the Southern leave you in the morning. You ain' ; t got no more job here." ; HUNTLEY: Oh, so he fired you? SMITH: Yes. Fired me. I said " ; Okay, thank you." ; I didn' ; t care. Because I had -- wore these money belts. I didn' ; t have nothing out there to spend my money for and they was paying me $7.00 and something an hour. HUNTLEY: Seven dollars and something an hour? SMITH: An hour. That was what they were paying me. HUNTLEY: Is that right? SMITH: And I had a money belt on brother and it was fitting me pretty tight. Do you hear what I am saying. And I didn' ; t -- it didn' ; t make me no difference because I could go on to Birmingham from Birmingham on home if I wanted because I was looking at my daddy' ; s smokehouse and it was just looking like a army' ; s packing house. And I sit looking at the crib and there was corn in there. Go to the mill and get some meal. There was a lot full of cows out there -- milk. And I said, " ; What have I got to worry about?" ; I said, " ; I don' ; t know how much I got around here, I' ; ll go home." ; HUNTLEY: So you went back to Butler? SMITH: I went back to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Back to Birmingham? SMITH: When I went back to Birmingham -- got back up there they had a little light blow over up there. Work had slowed down. Didn' ; t amount to a whole lot. It wasn' ; t cutting off anybody but they weren' ; t hiring anybody. But I could afford to walk around awhile without hurting. So I went on back and so Miss, the lady I was staying with was named Miss Willie. Miss Willie, she always called me " ; Boy." ; " ; Come on in here, Boy." ; She says, " ; My same ruling is good, stand good." ; Well, she didn' ; t allow it -- it was about four of us staying there. And she didn' ; t allow us out after 9:00 o' ; clock. If you out after 9:00 o' ; clock, you didn' ; t get in. So, that meant that we had to be pretty well on the alert, you know, getting in and out. So that was her rule and she made us abide by it. HUNTLEY: So how long did you stay in Birmingham? SMITH: Well, when I came back then, I came back in -- they had a place down there on 17th Street they called the Riverside Cafe. You go down there at Riverside and you get a cup of coffee for a nickel and you could get a breakfast for fifteen cents, more than you could eat. Well, that was just twenty cents. So, I was on my way down about 9:00 o' ; clock. The next couple of days down to Riverside to eat, somebody is coming up Avenue " ; F" ; towards Pratt City and they saw me crossing Avenue " ; F" ; on 17th Street and they hollered, " ; Hey cook, hey cook." ; I stopped and wait until they got up there. " ; Strike' ; s over. Go on out -- if you want to work in the mine, go on out to Docena to wherever you want to go. They are transferring us all to -- back to the mines we want to go to." ; So I didn' ; t go to breakfast. I just went right on down to Avenue " ; F" ; and went on out to Hampton Slope out there. The man who worked there said, " ; Well, where did you want to work?" ; He didn' ; t ask me where I had been working. He just asked me where I want to work and then what my name was and I told him old man Henderson didn' ; t get a chance to put a red " ; X" ; on my card, so it was in the box just like he had hired me, you know. And he looked and found my card. I told him, " ; Hampton Slope." ; He said, " ; Well, you can come out this evening if you want 3-11." ; I said, " ; How about day?" ; He said, " ; Well, you can have day if you want it." ; So I said, " ; Well, I' ; ll be out in the morning." ; So I went on and left there and went on by the doctor. HUNTLEY: So you actually worked in the mine? SMITH: In the mine, yeah. I worked in the mine a while and old man Will Schaeffer was my mine foreman. HUNTLEY: So how long were you in the mines? SMITH: Well, I was in the mine around about two years. HUNTLEY: And then after the mine, then what? SMITH: After the mines, I' ; ll tell you what happened. Probably I liked the mine so well until man, I just loved it, I just thought once that was an awful thing to be in the mine -- all that -- everything on top of you. You down there in that hole, but after I got down there and learned everything about it, I loved to be in there. And I stayed down there for about two years and I didn' ; t say this is it. I' ; m going to make it here. Well, on the tenth right in the mine, it was a new mine, they had turned off rooms, you know. The tenth right -- HUNTLEY: This is the tenth right turn? SMITH: That' ; s a tenth. That' ; s a room. You turn off tenth right. HUNTLEY: Yes. SMITH: After they got up in there a piece, they run into a vault. A vault now means -- here' ; s the coal, and this here, this sheet right here is a rock, it goes right straight down in dividing this coal from here on the other side. Now, on the other side I don' ; t know how thick this will be. This can be 15 or 20 feet thick. HUNTLEY: You don' ; t know how thick it is until you get in there and start -- SMITH: Right. Right. And then what they do, they come there, people that, take those scopes and things and tell you just exactly what to do. Well, what they had to do, they had to go shoot this rock and you know, it was about 15 or 20 feet through, if that thick and they shoot it through and that coal comes up on the other side of this rock. On the same level it was over here. And they shoot this rock out the way and get it out the way and run right back into the same coal on the other side. So old man Schaeffer give me the job of furnishing them people a car to load that rock in, which they would load a car a day. And I had a mule, took mules in the mine. And I had a mule, I would go by the lot every morning and get my mule. I' ; ll go up there and I just lay out there on the pile of clay they had there to make dummies out of there and stay there from the time I' ; d get there in the morning until quitting time. Take the mule and would never hitch him up to a car. HUNTLEY: Were you a member of the UMW? SMITH: No. They didn' ; t have that then. HUNTLEY: The UMW was not in the mines? SMITH: No. They didn' ; t have those union and things. That wasn' ; t in existence then. So had an old foreman over us -- had about 15 or 20 men. Had about -- had an old foreman there, his name was Larry. He lived out there in a place they called Heartspat. And old man Larry he was one of them you know. He would come by there and see me laying out there. " ; You get up off of that pile of clay and come on out here and get a shovel and get in the gang and go to work." ; I looked at him and laughed at him. I said, " ; If you hold your breath until I shovel some rock out there, I don' ; t know what will happen to you." ; And stretched back out. Well, it would make him so angry he didn' ; t know what to do. So old man Shaeffer told me, that was my boss, he said, " ; Now, I' ; m your boss. You do what I tell you to do. You go by the lot and you get your mule and you are responsible for that mule until you put him back in that lot." ; And he said, " ; Now, you take care of that mule out there and all you got to do is take care of that mule and when they load that car, pull that car, you give them an empty back. You ain' ; t got nothing else to do. All right, if you got anything else to do, I' ; ll tell you." ; Well now what more did I want to hear. All right. So he just kept picking at me. One White fellow in the gang. He just kept picking at me. " ; Let Mr. So and So drive that mule." ; I looked up ; you know and lay on back down myself. So he got this White fellow come up there one day. He had a sprag. A sprag is a piece of wood about that long you stick in a wheel to lock it, if it' ; s running too fast, the car was rolling too fast. All right. And he had a sprag and he-- The mule was named Old Dick and the mule. Well, the mule didn' ; t take no punching. You messed around with him. You run out of there and hit that main slope and them motors on that main slope out there just like that hauling the coal from the different rooms. What you call " ; gathering coal." ; And they would get in that coal and them motors out there running just like that, you know. Because they ain' ; t expecting nothing like that -- no mule -- because we had a certain hour to carry them mules to the lot. The motors done quit running. And I said, " ; That mule is going to run out of here, go out there and get killed." ; And I said, " ; It' ; s going to be up to you, not me." ; So he went back and told old man Larry. And old man Larry came up there and jumped on me, you know. And I told him, I said, " ; Man, you don' ; t know what you are talking about. You don' ; t know who you' ; re talking to." ; And I say, " ; You' ; re losing time." ; And I said, " ; If you want to talk to anybody, you talk to Mr. Shaeffer and leave me alone." ; He just kept a mouthing and I just got up and took one of them sprags and give it to him upside his head. HUNTLEY: Was this a Black man or a White man? SMITH: A White man. And I knocked him out, you know. So, when I did, I blew my lamp out. I laid back down on the pile of clay. Directly Mr. Shaeffer came through. Old man Larry was crawling around in the dark trying to find his light. His face was bloody and so old man Shaeffer said, " ; Lord, have mercy. What' ; s the matter with you, Larry?" ; " ; Smith, hit me." ; " ; Smith, hit you? What he doing hitting you?" ; About that time I knocked my light on and come out. I walked up there where he was. " ; Smith, what' ; s happening here?" ; I told him. He said, " ; Larry, what you doing interfering with him? Is you his boss?" ; He said, " ; Well, I' ; m going to have to send y' ; all both to Pratt City to see Mr. McCord." ; That was the general over the mines, the general foreman over the mines. So, old man Larry wanted him to squish it. He said, " ; I' ; m willing to squish it if you --" ; Well, he said " ; No. I can' ; t do that. Taking too much on my job. Something happen to you -- you got to go to the doctor." ; He say, " ; Something happen to you, that' ; ll be my job, I can' ; t do that Larry." ; He went on and Mr. Black, we went over there and he give us both 15 days a piece. HUNTLEY: Fifteen days off? SMITH: Yes. And it was against the law to fight in the mine, he told us. He said, " ; I ought to send both of you to jail." ; But he didn' ; t. HUNTLEY: Well, Black men were fired for much, much less than that -- than fighting a White man. And you hit a white man and knocked him out and you were not fired? SMITH: Sure enough. HUNTLEY: And there were never any repercussions from that? SMITH: No. No. Mr. Black came to me -- he was Mr. Henderson' ; s assistant and he came on up and he came up from Brookside and they made him assistant to old man Shaeffer. And old man Black, he still knew me from down at Brookside. He came to me, he told me, he said, " ; Smith, you know what?" ; I said, " ; No." ; He said, " ; You got 15 days and I don' ; t want you to come back into the mine. Not in this mine, no how." ; He said, " ; Because some of them may pick at you. And if they pick at you then you going to do the same thing again." ; I said, " ; Well, I don' ; t know nothing else to do." ; I said, " ; What you bothering me for?" ; He said, " ; Well, that' ; s what I know and that' ; s what you don' ; t understand how to push it off, if you can. But you are going to go for it." ; And he said, " ; I just don' ; t want you to come back here because they' ; ll pick at you and you' ; ll get black-balled for good." ; He said, " ; I' ; ll tell you what I' ; ll do." ; He said, " ; I' ; m going to get you a job at the company." ; HUNTLEY: This is in the mill? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: So that' ; s when you left the mine and went to the mill? SMITH: Yes. I went on to the mill. HUNTLEY: Tell me then, where were you living at the time? SMITH: At that time? HUNTLEY: Yes, sir. When you went to the mill, what community were you living in? SMITH: Well, when I went there, I was living on Avenue " ; K" ; and 20th Street in Ensley. HUNTLEY: Were you married at the time? SMITH: Yes, I was married then. HUNTLEY: This is probably what, in the 30s and 40s? SMITH: Well, this was up there around in the 40s. HUNTLEY: Were you involved in any community organizations at the time? SMITH: Well, not at that time. That particular time I wasn' ; t. And when I got involved in that is when this fortified union commence, you know, holding meetings and giving the opportunities and showing the company how to come. They had been robbing laborers and what the laborers didn' ; t have no opportunities and no privilege and the least little thing. Most anything your foreman could get you fired. HUNTLEY: This was the United Steel Workers of America? SMITH: Right. And I said your foreman could get you fired and could get you fired. You just don' ; t have nothing to stand on, but said, if you joined this fortified organization, what you called the CIO, they said, we put up a fight and we see how come they firing you and what they are firing you about. And they are going to have to start paying y' ; all. They ain' ; t paying you right. HUNTLEY: Did you ever join that organization? SMITH: No. No. I never did join the CIO. HUNTLEY: Were you a member of a union? SMITH: I was a member of the company union. I never did join CIO. SMITH: But I attempted to because Howard Strevel was the, what do you call it? HUNTLEY: District Rep? SMITH: Yes. District Representative. And he and I got pretty close together and so I, you know, I wanted to know all I could about it and he give me the address of the top man. It was kind of backed up by the Federal government and he give me the top man' ; s -- HUNTLEY: Did you know Asbury Howard? SMITH: Who? HUNTLEY: Asbury Howard? SMITH: Yes. I had a talk with him. HUNTLEY: He was probably the top Black. He became vice president of the steel worker organization. SMITH: Yes, yes. HUNTLEY: So when then did you get involved in the Movement? SMITH: In this Christian Movement? HUNTLEY: Yes, sir. SMITH: Well, I got involved when Rev. Shuttlesworth, he organized that. Fred Shuttlesworth and they had had one meeting. They met every Monday night. And Edward Gardner lived -- I lived on the southside where I' ; m living now. And he lived on the north side on the same street as Edward Gardner. Edward Gardner was a minister. So he came over -- they had had one meeting and that Monday, the Tuesday following that Monday night meeting, he came over to my house and talked with me and told me, he says " ; I want you to go with me next Monday night." ; I said, " ; Where are you going?" ; He said, " ; Well, we might get something good going." ; So I went with him down to New Hope. Herman Stone was the pastor of New Hope Baptist Church right there across from Sloss' ; blast furnace. New Hope Baptist Church used to sit there. HUNTLEY: That' ; s where the meeting was held? SMITH: That' ; s where the meeting was held that night. That next Monday night. Right there, just below the Birmingham Water Works. That' ; s where the church was sitting. HUNTLEY: Well, how did that meeting impress you? Were you impressed by it? SMITH: Well, I went over there with him. And there were so many people. About two churches in one. And after the service and everything, he called Fred and told Fred he had a man here that he wanted to introduce to him that would make us -- he was -- Gardner was the vice president and Fred Shuttlesworth was the president. He said " ; This one will make us a good man. Somebody you can depend on." ; And he said, " ; I want to make you acquainted with him." ; And he said, " ; But he don' ; t -- you got to go straight for however long with him, because he don' ; t like no liars and this, that and the other. Just tell him the truth whatever the nature of the case may be." ; He say, " ; That' ; s just the kind of fellow he is and he said, if you be truthful to him, he' ; ll work with you." ; Okay. Well, like about 15 or 20 preachers, they all gathered around me and was talking to him. " ; Man, this is the man, we want him." ; And they put me to work, you know. HUNTLEY: What did they have you doing? SMITH: Well, advertising. Advertising what they were doing. Such as -- see I worked out at the plant. All right. I could tell the fellows in the bathhouse what was going on. See. I could tell them. I said, " ; I think that this is something that is closer than I' ; ve ever seen for the Black race to come together." ; And I said, " ; I think it would be nice for every Black race it is -- every Black face it is to go join this and put ourselves together and I says, I believe we can make something out of it and have more strength." ; So I went from there and so I was in most everything they had. There executive boards and the different meetings. I was on one of the finance committees and oh, I was in all of it. And it wasn' ; t no end to the money. I don' ; t know what them folks was doing with all that money. HUNTLEY: So it was plenty money -- SMITH: They got some of that money ought to be in circulation and some of it not. They would take up four and five thousand dollars every Monday night. I' ; m telling you the truth because I was one of the finance committee and helped count the money. I know it was there. So we went on and on and on. HUNTLEY: Did you recruit people to come in and get involved? SMITH: Well, you know I' ; d tell them. And a lot of people that knew me would come in just because I was in it. You know, how we was, we as a race of people and I still think we still has a part of that now. We kind of go a piece with you and then we start and want to hesitate and wonder if it was right. And if we are wrong, we' ; re going to start something and if we' ; re right we' ; re going to start something. See, I think we still have that attitude. HUNTLEY: Right. Were you involved when Bethel was bombed -- Shuttlesworth' ; s home was bombed? SMITH: Yes. I sure was. Of course, I was there and they had this fellow lawyer, Billingsley. HUNTLEY: Orzell Billingsley? SMITH: Orzell Billingsley, yeah. He was their lawyer, one of their lawyers. So the law was standing out there and Orzell walked up and so after -- HUNTLEY: This is at the church, after the bombing? SMITH: After the bombing, yeah. This is his house, now. SMITH: And the law is telling him, " ; You can' ; t go in there." ; Orzell looked around and said, " ; Who can' ; t?" ; He kept walking. They looked at one another and said, " ; Who is he?" ; Well, with him doing what he did, you know, he was scared to look back at him and kept walking. So they knew that there was a little bit behind him, you know, as an authority. And so it went on from that, you know, and then I was well on my way when later on they had bombed the church that he pastored. This old White fellow, he had a lot of dumb SMITH: Because this -- they had men around the clock at the church watching it. HUNTLEY: Did you ever participate in that? SMITH: No. I never did go into that part. I always had something, look like, just a little there. In the way of giving advice, things like that. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in demonstrations? SMITH: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: Did you march? SMITH: Marched too. HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested? SMITH: No. I never was arrested. Me and Edward Gardner, Edward Gardner was the vice president. Neither one of us. And a lot of the arresting was made, I was -- it was my advice to Shuttlesworth, I was in the executive board meeting and that' ; s where we would set up the plans for things like that to happen. And I said to Shuttlesworth, I said, " ; Now, you quit running ahead of your committee. You work with your committee. You don' ; t run ahead and take things and charge. Y' ; all make your plans here, then you leave here and going on out there and you take it in your own hands and do what you want to do just because you the president." ; I said, " ; No. No. No." ; Well, we went down there to the high school there in Woodlawn. Well, at that time, see these White folks had everything against us was in violation when it come down to right. You couldn' ; t -- you had to set on the street car, board sitting up there behind you. You couldn' ; t sit behind the board. Well, now all you had to do was just let one go in that streetcar and sit behind the board. Just one. He done violated the law. HUNTLEY: Blacks couldn' ; t sit in front of the board, right? SMITH: Blacks had to sit in front, Whites behind it. HUNTLEY: No. It was just the opposite, right? SMITH: Yes, yes, yes. HUNTLEY: All right. Whites sitting in the front of the bus?SMITH: No. The Whites behind the board, the Blacks would be in the front. All right. They did it that way, I guess, well, either way it could work. But anyhow, them conductors would move that board. Then they would make you get up, ask you to get up and to give your seat and they would move the board above you. That would automatically make you have to move because you in violation if you sit here above this board. And each date had a way and if they didn' ; t do nothing but stop this street car and going to telephone. Call the law and have the law to meet him. HUNTLEY: Did you ever participate in those? Would you ride the bus in front of the board? SMITH: No. I never was in that condition. I never did it. But my advice on that was, just one. One would make a case. You see, one sit down, he going to arrest him. Well, y' ; all he wanted to carry the court. When he carried to court then the court would hand down the decision, who is right and who is wrong. You see, that' ; s the decision that we had to make on those cases. HUNTLEY: Did other members of your family participate? SMITH: My family? HUNTLEY: Yes. SMITH: No. I didn' ; t have anyone. No I didn' ; t have any personally one. I had a brother, he lived 1302 Avenue " ; L" ; in Ensley and he didn' ; t interfere with it at all. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of? SMITH: I was a member of Moore Presbyterian. HUNTLEY: Was your church and your pastor involved in the Movement? SMITH: No. At that time, he wasn' ; t. Because when Shuttlesworth' ; s house and church and everything got bombed, the church didn' ; t get bombed, this fellow, this White fellow going to bomb the church. He' ; s going to bomb it at the change of each shift. This man was coming on and letting the fellow off that worked from 3-11 and he' ; s coming on from 11-7. And this man was going to bomb it between the change. And he came up the road with his dynamite and it was lit. Them fuses was lit off. And it was pushing him so close, he had to throw it down. And when he threw it down, he threw it down in the street and he run. And when he ran it knocked a hole in the street, you could sit half of the church in it. He was going to carry it away from there, if he had of gotten to the church with it. HUNTLEY: Well, you then served basically as an advisor for the Movement and to Shuttlesworth? SMITH: Oh, yes. Right. HUNTLEY: Did he normally take your advice? SMITH: Oh, yes. Well, my president was kind of on the hard head side. And the result that he felt for and when he went down to the high school at Woodlawn, they was going down, the committee was going. It was about five or six of them was going down there. HUNTLEY: This is Shuttlesworth that' ; s going to the high school? SMITH: Yes, down to the high school in Woodlawn. Well, they had a certain time they was going to meet there. And the place that they had Shuttlesworth waiting, he just went ahead on about an hour ahead of time and when the crowd had got there, they done had whip Shuttlesworth with a bicycle chain and sent him to the hospital and he' ; s gone to the hospital when the rest of them got there. HUNTLEY: Was this when he was attempting to get his children into -- SMITH: Well, no. That was to breakdown the segregation in the school. All of that was, and so, in that, that was some of that proof that I had with what I was trying to telling him about not abiding about what had been said in the executive board. HUNTLEY: Some of the other events that took place, were the sit-ins, the Freedom Riders who came into Birmingham, there was a selective buying campaign, a boycott of the stores downtown -- SMITH: The worse we had was, we all called him " ; Bull" ; but his name was Eugene Conner. He was the mayor down there. And the city ought to have went broke because he ordered so many pistols. Everybody, every White face he could find to wear one of them guns, he' ; d give him a gun. HUNTLEY: Whether they were police or not? SMITH: Yes. Trying to break this-- HUNTLEY: The Movement? SMITH: The Movement up. We had a nice Bible class at our church and Professor Mackum, Dr. R. C. Mackum' ; s brother, he was the teacher. He was our Men' ; s Bible Class teacher and he said that, I thought he said we could be a great help to this program that' ; s being had. And we sat there and listened and what he said and we said, " ; Let' ; s go down there and talk with Eugene Conner and see just what, we need to kind of listen at what they said the law was." ; And so we did. Was about five or six of us went down. HUNTLEY: And met with Bull Conner? SMITH: Yes. And we went down there. We didn' ; t get a chance to talk. He told us that, you knew he did all the talk, Bull Conner told us he knew what we was down there for, but he had all the preachers under control himself. Around in his office, that high on the wall was stacks of whiskey. All kinds, all sizes. And he said to us, he said, " ; You see all that, them crates down there?" ; We said, " ; Yeah." ; He said, " ; That' ; s whiskey." ; He said, " ; Now, all your preachers, I got them under control. They do what I tell them to do." ; And he said, " ; When he come in here and make a good report, I give him a fifth. And when he just say something, I give him a half of pint." ; HUNTLEY: So that' ; s the way he was saying he controlled the preachers? SMITH: Yes. That' ; s what he was carrying on against the Movement. All right. We sat there and we couldn' ; t get in a word edgewise. He told us, " ; We were losing time to come there and try to hear him and what he was going to do, because he had the preachers himself." ; He said, " ; He may preach to y' ; all at 11:00 o' ; clock." ; But, he said, " ; Monday morning he be here. He' ; s going to report here." ; HUNTLEY: Did you believe that? SMITH: Well some of them did. Not all of them did, but some of, yes. But, anyway, eventually as time passed on, you know, it showed where he stood and what he stood for. And eventually didn' ; t get elected back as a commissioner here in Birmingham. SMITH: Then this man, this man down here, who was it that got elected in Montgomery? All right. He gave him a job over the utility program that' ; s in Montgomery right now. And he gave him a job down there, this man did. All right. I, at the United, with a fellow they called " ; Zacarello," ; he was a Diego, but Zacarello was a rich man. He had plenty money. And he set up a program for the senior citizens and in that program it called for us going to Montgomery and places like that to see about what we could do for the senior citizens because the senior citizens had they problems such as they sickness, they husbands, something like that go to the hospital, that was a big bill. Well, we would take that bill up, go to the hospital, sit down and talk with the doctors and the head there and show them these here are senior citizens and whatever you have it today, they are the cause of it, whether it' ; s good or bad. And if it hadn' ; t been for them, it wouldn' ; t have been this and wouldn' ; t have been that. And they done got old now and what you going to still look for them to come up to date on paying as much as you and I? HUNTLEY: Let me take you back just a bit. What do you remember about the demonstrations in ' ; 63 when Dr. King came into Birmingham? SMITH: Well, Dr. King came here, when he came here, once he came here and they was intending to kill him here and N. H. Smith who was the pastor of New Pilgrim, him and Herman Stone, I know them two, but it was about four of them got an army car, that' ; s the only way they got King out of here without him getting hurt. They had a trap set up for him. They got an army car and got him away from here. They rode with him until they got him to safety. HUNTLEY: Were you part of the advisory board or executive committee during the ' ; 63 demonstrations when all of the children were arrested out at Kelly Ingram Park and 16th Street Baptist Church? SMITH: Yes, yes. HUNTLEY: What were the highlights of that time? SMITH: Well, the highlights on that program. All of what I just said, foresaid, a while ago. All we needed was just one to go in there and it wasn' ; t a law. There was not a law. It was what these folks wanted form themselves. The White folk wanted for themselves. And they said to you and I it was a law, it was against a law. That' ; s what they used on us. All right. Now, when you, that' ; s they law, just like marriage. They say it' ; s against the law to marry a White woman. All right. So when King got into it, got himself into it and found out all of the ways and means that they had set up for and against the Black race, then he said the best thing he could do is go to Washington, D.C. and find out what' ; s on the book up there. Then Johnson was the President of the United States in Washington. He goes up there and didn' ; t call Johnson up for appointment. George Wallace in Montgomery, he had been calling Johnson trying to get appointment to get to Washington because he wanted to put what he was putting down in Montgomery, he wanted to get it to Washington, D.C. and get it going. Johnson wouldn' ; t look back at him. Wouldn' ; t even talk with him. Martin Luther King and he didn' ; t even ask to have an appointment. He went up there and all he done was got in the right place and asked and told them who he was and he wanted to see the President. They got the President word and the President said, " ; Bring him on in." ; That news flashed right back to Alabama in Montgomery in seconds. George Wallace blew his top. He said, " ; How did Johnson recognize a Negro before he would him?" ; Johnson come right back on him, and told him, over the air, told him, he said, " ; If you had had something to offer like this Black man had, I would have recognized you." ; HUNTLEY: What do you think was the contribution of Birmingham to the Movement? Overall civil rights movement? SMITH: Well, I think it was a great asset to us here. Because, you know, at that time that I was coming along up here, you know these Whites, these old police, you know had these old big clubs on they hips and things. They didn' ; t mind, before they' ; d say good morning to you, they' ; d hit you. Well, when they hit you, you didn' ; t have sense enough to say nothing then. But so, in that, they took all that power away from them. They was in violation of the law. And coming back to this point for I didn' ; t quite get through but when King went up there. And when Johnson, he got to Johnson, he told Johnson what he' ; s there for. He said, " ; I want to see the book, to see what you got on here for us and against us." ; So he told his secretary, Johnson did, " ; Take him around and let him see what he wants." ; And he didn' ; t wait until he got through to seeing all of it. He flashed it over the air, King did. He said, " ; Man, who you want to marry?" ; He says, " ; Its agreement between you two." ; HUNTLEY: Well, these obviously were some very turbulent times and we have covered a lot today. Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with that stands out in your mind that' ; s related to the civil rights movement? SMITH: Well, I would love to see the churches ; I' ; d loved to see these preachers getting in the harness on what thus saith the Lord. Be honest. Quit trying to run it his way. Quit trying to carry in the way that he would benefit from it, not the people and not the Lord and Savior Jesus would be pleased. I talk about that right now. When I get an opportunity to do, I talk about that now. I says, " ; If this charity begins at home and will spread abroad." ; And I say, " ; Here you start it, here you start it and you start, ain' ; t long before it took a hold." ; HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. Well, I certainly appreciate you taking the time out today to come and sit and talk with us. You have been quite a help to us. Let me just ask you one other question. Do you have any items that are related to the Movement or to the development of Birmingham that you would like to donate to the Institute? If you do have, we will be more than glad to talk with you about them. SMITH: Well, now, I don' ; t call myself a wealthy man, but what I do name myself, I' ; m blessed. I' ; m blessed. And all of my blessings he has give to me ; I have a very nice wife. She is very nice to me. HUNTLEY: She has taking good care of you. SMITH: And everything that I profess to have I give it to her. Everything that I want her to enjoy life and she knows the difference between right and wrong and she knows the wrong side and she knows the right side. And so, that' ; s my state of it. Now, if I didn' ; t have somebody like her, then that' ; s a good thought, that' ; s a good thought. I would be happy to set down and communicate with somebody like you and see just what, how much help could I be along that line. HUNTLEY: We certainly do appreciate it. As I said, you have been quite a help to us. And what we are attempting to do is to get the real story of Birmingham. And the only way we do that are from people like yourself. Thank you Mr. Smith for coming out. SMITH: I appreciate it. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JSmith1995.xml JSmith1995.xml
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Johnnie L. Smith
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Johnnie L. Smith discusses his extensive mining career before getting involved in the Movement. He became an advisor to the ACMHR, including meeting with Bull Connor.
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19950504S
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights
Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.)
United States Steel Company
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1995-05-04
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video
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152e2414d8eeed2189ece005ede9daa5
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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George Johnson
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Work Discrimination
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5.4 April 13, 1995 Rev. George Johnson 19950413J 0:47:29 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company Birmingham Personnel Board (Birmingham, Ala.) Selective Buying Campaign Work Discrimination George Johnson Horace Huntley Video 1:|1(2)|13(11)|37(7)|50(2)|61(11)|80(5)|97(4)|112(9)|133(4)|148(8)|159(4)|188(6)|205(7)|225(14)|241(3)|250(13)|268(14)|276(16)|299(7)|310(6)|329(14)|344(14)|374(13)|389(2)|404(10)|425(8)|434(4)|450(3)|465(14)|477(5)|487(15)|497(11)|508(4)|518(11)|539(2)|553(6)|575(8)|587(3)|602(1)|612(2)|627(11)|641(6)|651(6)|665(16)|679(8)|695(6)|708(1) 0 https://youtu.be/BJOzXgwopJE YouTube video English 67 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Rev. George Johnson for the oral history project of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. Today is April 13, 1995 and we are at Miles College. Rev. Johnson, thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit with us today to try to help us to develop the real story of Birmingham. Thank you for coming. George Johnson is introduced. 33.4810, -86.9089 17 Miles College 33.5161, -86.8145 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 99 Family Background I want to start by getting a little background information. Where were you born? George Johnson talks about growing up in Birmingham with a single mother who worked as a housekeeper. African American--Family--Religious ; Housekeeper Avondale (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Union Springs (Ala.) ; Zion Spring Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 249 Early Education Tell me about your educational background. Where did you start school? George Johnson discusses the schools he attended as a child. East Birmingham Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Kingston Elementary (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Thomas School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 331 Moving North After High School What did you do after high school? George Johnson explains how he moved to the North to get away from racism but how he wasn't very different than the south, so he moved back. Racism--United States ; Work Discrimination Cleveland (Ohio) 394 Returning to Birmingham and Joining the National Youth Association So you then spent 3 or 4 months in Cleveland and then returned to Birmingham? George Johnson explains how he went to go work for the Sloss and join the National Youth Association choir when he moved back to Birmingham. African American choirs Birmingham (Ala.) ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; National Youth Association ; Sloss Furnace Company ; United States. National Youth Administration 486 Working at L& ; N Okay. And then you went from there to the L& ; N Railroad? George Johnson discusses how he was working for L& ; N until he was drafted into the United States Military. Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company ; Military Service--Drafted 537 Entering the U.S. Navy What branch of service did you go into? George Johnson discusses his time in the U.S. Navy as an apprentice seaman. Apprentice Seaman ; Military--Deaths ; Petty Officer Okinawa Island (Japan) ; Pearl Harbor (Hawaii) ; South Pacific Sea ; United States. Navy Department 680 Returning to L & ; N After Discharging from Military Okay. And then after you are discharged from the Navy what did you do? George Johnson talks about getting married and going back to work for L& ; N after discharging from the military. African Americans--Marriage ; Military--Desegregation Booker T. Washington Business College (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company 714 Registering to Vote Many of the Black servicemen who are returning were looking at changing the society through voting and other means. Did you become a registered voter upon returning to Birmingham? George Johnson talks about how important it was to get himself and his community registered to vote. African American--Voter Registration Booker T. Washington Business College (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Butler, Philander ; Gaston, A. G. (Arthur George), 1892- ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 891 Outlawing the NAACP This precedes the outlawing of the NAACP from operating in the State of Alabama in 1956. How did that impact upon you and your organization? Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; The National Association for The Advancement of Colored People 956 The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Were you one of the charter members of the Alabama Christian Movement? George Johnson talks about joining the Alabama Christian Movement meetings and facing racial discrimination in applying for a job with Birmingham. Mass Meetings ; Police patrol ; Racial Discrimination--Work Place--Birmingham (Ala.) Jones, Clyde ; Ray Mullen ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1089 Suing the Personnel Board for the City of Birmingham It stated on the application? George Johnson discusses suing the Birmingham Personnel Board for having " ; Whites only" ; on their application for policemen. " ; White Only" ; ; Lawsuits ; Policemen ; Racial Discrimination--Employment ; Sit-ins Alabama County Court (Jefferson County) ; Alabama State Court ; Birmingham Personnel Board (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Hubert Grooms ; Jones, Clyde ; Orzell Billingsley 1238 Participating in the Movement and Going to College Did you participate in any of the other demonstrations such as riding the buses? George Johnson expresses being part of the movement, and how it might have affected his termination at L& ; N, leading him to go into ministry. Bomb threats ; Civil Rights Movement--Marches--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Family Support ; Religion Estonian Baptist Seminary (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company ; University of Alabama at Birmingham (Ala.) 1429 Church's Involvement in The Movement What church were you initially called to? George Johnson talks about pastoring for the Greater New Bethel Baptist Church and their support during the movement. Church Bombing ; Civil Rights Movement--Birmingham (Ala.) Greater New Bethel Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 1535 Important Events During The Movement If I ask you to select maybe the three most important events during the period that we are discussing from 1956 to 1963 when the demonstrations took place, what would those events be? George Johnson cites the 3 most important events for him during the Movement. Lawsuit ; Racial Discrimination--Employment Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham Personnel Board (Birmingham, Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1670 Recalling the Freedom Riders and New Progressive Baptist State Convention George Johnson discusses taking his church choir down to Mobile, Alabama for a convention and being mistaken as the Freedom Riders. African Americans--Segregation ; Church Choir ; Community backlash Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Grove Hill (Ala. : Town) ; New Progressive Baptist State Convention--Mobile (Ala.) 1826 Recalling the Selective Buying Campaign In '62 the Miles College students and the Alabama Christian Movement came together and developed the Selective Buying Campaign downtown, where they boycotted stores. What do you remember about that period? George Johnson recalls how effective the Selective Buying Campaign was for hiring Black people at Birmingham stores. African Americans--Segregation ; Businesses--Birmingham (Ala.) Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Miles College ; Selective Buying Campaign 1921 Working for the Social Security Administration I didn't apply -- I was too old to be a police patrolman so I applied for a job with the federal government and I passed the test and I was called by Social Security. George Johnson discusses how he had trouble becoming a supervisor due to discrimination. Racial Discrimination--Employment ; Racially Biased Testing Birmingham (Ala.) ; Social security--United States 2093 Benefits of The Movement What benefits did you, your family and community realize as a result of the Movement? George Johnson talks about wanting to be recognized along with others through the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.)--Board of Directors ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Woods, Abraham Jr., 1928-2008 2218 Changes to The Movement This is what we are about and I appreciate you doing this. If you were in control of the Movement and could go back and change some things, what would you change? George Johnson explains how he would keep going full speed ahead and that he had no regrets about what the movement did. Civil Rights Movement--Birmingham (Ala.) ; United States Navy 2289 Major Accomplishments of Movement What is your assessment of the Birmingham movement? How successful was it? What were the major accomplishments and were there any failure? George Johnson assess the Movement as a whole. African Americans--Segregation ; Southern Baptist Assembly ; White Flight 2488 Present Day Effects of Movement and Civil Rights Institute Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with in relationship to the Movement? George Johnson talks about the Civil Rights Institutes involvement in preserving Black history. Blacks--America--History ; Religion Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement--Birmingham (Ala.) 2676 Fighting For an African American Studies Class Let me ask you this question. What effect has it had? I know at one time you and some of the others at UAB fought to have a school set up for this. What happened? George Johnson asks if there was ever a proposal to have a department of African American Studies at UAB. Churches ; Community Department of African American Studies ; University of Alabama at Birmingham 2755 Donating Items to The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute I appreciate you asking that because there are not many people that are asking those kinds of questions. Lastly, do you have any items related to the Movement or to the development of Birmingham that you would like to donate to the Institute? George Johnson talks about having a few items to donate to the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Letters ; News Clippings Birmingham Personnel Board (Birmingham, Ala.) 2820 Conclusion of Interview And again, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule and you coming and sitting with us to help us really develop this story. Because the only way you get the true story is from the people who were involved and you of course were one of those. Thank you again. Interview concludes. Oral History Rev. George Johnson discusses combating employment discrimination in Birmingham, including by suing the Personnel Board. He continued to participate in the Movement through his church. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Rev. George Johnson for the oral history project of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. Today is April 13, 1995 and we are at Miles College. Rev. Johnson, thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit with us today to try to help us to develop the real story of Birmingham. Thank you for coming. JOHNSON: Glad to be here. HUNTLEY: I want to start by getting a little background information. Where were you born? JOHNSON: I was born in Birmingham, Alabama in the East Birmingham community. And I have lived in that community most of my life until 1984 and I moved to Avondale as pastor of the Zion Spring Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: What part of the state were your parents from? JOHNSON: My parents were from Union Springs, Alabama at least my mother was. I don' ; t know anything about my father. But my mother was from Union Springs and my brothers and sisters were from Union Spring. I' ; m the only exception being born in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Okay. How many brothers and sisters did you have? JOHNSON: I had eight brothers and sisters. HUNTLEY: How many older and how many younger? JOHNSON: They all were older, because I' ; m the youngest of the nine. HUNTLEY: Oh, you' ; re the baby? JOHNSON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your mother. JOHNSON: My mother was a Christian woman and she reared us in the admonition and the fear of God and she did all of her children like that and there was only one exception to all of us coming to Christ and that was my oldest brother. He never did confess Christ, but all the others, those who are dead and those who still survive are Christians. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your mother do? JOHNSON: My mother, here in Birmingham, she was more or less, not necessarily a maid, but she collected clothes from different White families and she washed them and ironed them and then we would return them. We would pick them up on Monday and then take them back on Thursday before school and so forth. HUNTLEY: So you were intimately involved in that process? JOHNSON: My brother and I were involved in the process of picking up and delivering. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your educational background. Where did you start school? JOHNSON: I started school at the East Birmingham Elementary School. That was the initial school. And from there -- in the 3rd grade I went to Kingston School and that school went from 3rd through the 5th. When I reached grade 6, I went to Thomas School and of course, I stayed at Thomas School until I finished. And in 1937 in January I graduated and went to Parker High and at that time it was so crowded we had to go to school at 11:30 and in 1938 they opened up Ullman High School and we transferred from Parker to Ullman. Ullman was a one year school at that time. HUNTLEY: That was to the 10th grade? JOHNSON: That was in the -- Ullman went from the 9th and 10th grade and later on they made it a full four year high school. But I stayed at Ullman one half term and went back to Parker in the 10th grade and that' ; s where I completed my education at Parker. HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school? JOHNSON: After high school I went north for a few months. HUNTLEY: Where did you go? JOHNSON: I went to Cleveland, Ohio. I wanted to leave the south. I had brothers and sisters in Cleveland and they were telling me to come and I went and I was disenchanted with what I encountered there. I was under the impression that I would not encounter the same kind of thing that I encountered here in the South, but upon applying for a job in Cleveland, the first job I applied for they told me they didn' ; t hire Blacks. And that put a bad taste in my mouth. And, of course, I got a job and worked 3 or 4 months and -- but I was headed back South and my brother told me you are a fool to go back. And I said " ; I' ; m going back and I' ; m going to work and stay in the South until we get things right there." ; And so, that' ; s where I am. HUNTLEY: So you then spent 3 or 4 months in Cleveland and then returned to Birmingham? JOHNSON: Return to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: What did you do upon returning? JOHNSON: Upon returning in ' ; 41, I started working for the NAACP out at Sloss field. It was more or less a school. Most of the graduates from Parker went -- those who were in the choir, and I was in the choir at Parker and they had a choir at Sloss field and so Mr. Henry told those of us who wanted to go out there and they would give us a job. And so I went out to Sloss field and I worked there until I was hired at the L& ; N Railroad. HUNTLEY: What did you do at Sloss? JOHNSON: I cooked. I was in the cafeteria. I was a cook at Sloss field. And I participated with the choir and we traveled and so forth. HUNTLEY: What was the group that you -- JOHNSON: It was the NYA choir. I don' ; t mean the NAACP. I mean the NYA Choir National Youth Association. HUNTLEY: Right. In fact that was a national organization. How long did you stay there? JOHNSON: Oh, approximately 9 or 10 months. HUNTLEY: Okay. And then you went from there to the L& ; N Railroad? JOHNSON: Yes. HUNTLEY: And what did you do at the L& ; N Railroad? JOHNSON: At the L& ; N I went in as a common laborer and of course, we did cleaning and so forth in various places there in the shop and other related duties. HUNTLEY: And how long did you stay with L& ; N? JOHNSON: I started there in July and in -- in July 1942 and I worked there until I was called into service in May of 1943. And upon returning in ' ; 46 I went back to the L& ; N. HUNTLEY: What branch of service did you go into? JOHNSON: United States Navy. HUNTLEY: The Navy? What was your job in the Navy? JOHNSON: I went in as an apprentice seaman and when I was discharged after having spent about two years in the South Pacific, my main duty was ship' ; s cook and I went in as an apprentice seaman and came out a Second Class Petty Officer. HUNTLEY: Did you see any action while you were in the Navy? JOHNSON: Not necessarily action. I was on a ship but the ship was transferring us from the United States to naval supply depot and that' ; s where I spent about 19 months at naval supply depot and then I came to Pearl Harbor and spent about three months there. And I came back to the States discharged at that time. HUNTLEY: Were there any events that you remember while you were in the service that sort of stick out in your memory? JOHNSON: One event. I was on the list to go to Okinawa and at that time I had a special duty of cooking for officers. I was not a steward. I was in the seaman branch. But they would take cooks from the seaman branch and they would cook for officers and at that time I was doing that. And when the chief -- my chief saw my name on the list to go to Okinawa for invasion, he said " ; I' ; m not going to let you go. I' ; m going to get your name off the list," ; and he did. Of course, the others went and then in a few months many of those persons -- those who were not killed returned back to the base -- to the naval hospital there on that base wounded and so forth. So that stood out in my mind because maybe I would have been one of the victims had I gone to Okinawa for the invasion. HUNTLEY: So you spent two years in the Navy? JOHNSON: I spent 31 months in the Navy. HUNTLEY: Okay. Nearly three years then? JOHNSON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Okay. And then after you are discharged from the Navy what did you do? JOHNSON: I went back to L& ; N. HUNTLEY: Went back to L& ; N? JOHNSON: Yes and I started work there and then I enrolled in Booker T. Washington Business College. HUNTLEY: Okay. Were you married at the time? JOHNSON: I married in ' ; 47 and I was discharged in ' ; 46 and I started in Booker T. Washington in ' ; 48. HUNTLEY: Okay. Now by this time of course, the military is about to be desegregated. JOHNSON: Right. HUNTLEY: Many of the Black servicemen who are returning were looking at changing the society through voting and other means. Did you become a registered voter upon returning to Birmingham? JOHNSON: Yes. Upon returning I became a registered voter in 1948 after I started to Booker T. Washington Business College. HUNTLEY: What prompted you at that time to become registered to vote? JOHNSON: Well, one of my instructors was a lawyer that taught me business law and he impressed upon us to go and register to vote and he also told us how we probably could do it without a lot of fanfare. And so he told us to use psychology on the registrars. I applied that type of psychology and it worked so I was not given a real hard time when I applied. HUNTLEY: Did you pass the very first time? JOHNSON: I passed the very first time. HUNTLEY: Who was your instructor that encouraged you? JOHNSON: Philander Butler. He was an attorney with Dr. Gaston' ; s business firm and he also taught business law. He taught me business law. HUNTLEY: Okay. Were you at that time, a member of the NAACP? JOHNSON: Yes I was. HUNTLEY: Did you assist in any ... JOHNSON: Now I was a member of the NAACP at that time in 1948, yes. HUNTLEY: Did you assist in helping other people to register to vote as well? JOHNSON: Yes. After I was passed and everything then I was president of our civil league in East Birmingham and we proceeded then to get as many persons as we could to register and vote. In fact we set up a lot of voter registration drives and what have you. There were several persons in the community who were instrumental in helping me as president to register the people and we were very well pleased with the outcome and those who responded to registering and voting. Of course we did other things in the community, but that' ; s one thing we are proud of. HUNTLEY: So voter registration was really a priority of the community at that time? JOHNSON: Right. HUNTLEY: Was that a priority around the city or was it basically of your community? JOHNSON: Around the city I would say, but specifically in East Birmingham. East Birmingham was sort of a special community. The families were closely related. HUNTLEY: This precedes the outlawing of the NAACP from operating in the State of Alabama in 1956. How did that impact upon you and your organization? JOHNSON: I believe -- you said ' ; 56. I was under the impression that it was ' ; 55 that the NAACP was outlawed and upon the outlawing of the NAACP the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized to carry on the work of the NAACP and Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth was elected president. And knowing the plight of Blacks as related to job- the job situation, after we had been organized and we were meeting over the city ; from community to community ; from church to church... HUNTLEY: Were you one of the charter members of the Alabama Christian Movement? JOHNSON: I was not a charter member. I was not in the organization but I came on board after that after the Movement was organized. HUNTLEY: So you did attend the Movement' ; s mass meetings? JOHNSON: Yes I did. HUNTLEY: Did you attend on a regular basis? JOHNSON: Yes. On a regular basis. HUNTLEY: How would you describe the typical mass meeting? JOHNSON: The typical mass meeting was inspirational. There was a lot of enthusiasm. The people were concerned about what they were doing and I was also concerned. And we were determined to make things happen in spite of the cost. And so when Dr. Shuttlesworth mentioned that we were going to test the system for jobs and go to the personnel board and apply for jobs, the first job mentioned was the job of police patrolman. And he threw it out to the house and I volunteered to go and there was another young man by the name of Clyde Jones, of course he fell out of the picture a little bit later on after we got things moving. So we applied. I applied rather. I was the litigant there and upon reaching the personnel board, Ray Mullen was the director of the personnel board. And I walked up and told him I wanted to apply for police patrolman. He looked at me and said " ; You don' ; t qualify." ; I mean just by looking at me. And I asked the question then " ; Why is it I don' ; t qualify?" ; So he showed me the application and it said " ; White Only." ; HUNTLEY: It stated on the application? JOHNSON: On the application " ; White Only." ; HUNTLEY: What did you do at that point? JOHNSON: At that time I returned -- we returned and so forth. I then sent a letter to him asking him to reconsider that and of course he did not. And we proceeded then to file a suit against the personnel board, City of Birmingham, and the State of Alabama. HUNTLEY: Were you the only litigant? JOHNSON: At that time. There were two at first and then after Clyde Jones then I became the only litigant there. HUNTLEY: How did that then proceed through the courts? JOHNSON: Well we started in the Jefferson County Court. We went from there to the State of Alabama and of course, each court refused to consider it. And finally it reached federal court and Judge Hubert Grooms heard the case and attorney Orzell Billingsley was my lawyer and after pleading the case, Judge Grooms ruled that the words " ; White Only" ; would have to come off of the applications and that all of the jobs in the city, the county and the state would be open to Blacks. HUNTLEY: Then did you proceed to attempt to get one of these jobs? JOHNSON: At that time I had passed -- for Birmingham I had passed the minimum age limit and I could not even file an application in Birmingham at that time because I had passed that age. I think it was 32 and at that time I was 33. HUNTLEY: But your case was instrumental in getting the " ; White only" ; removed from the application? JOHNSON: Yes. And others were able to apply not only for policeman jobs but for all the other jobs that the city and the county had. HUNTLEY: So, in fact, the issue of policemen was the very first issue that the Movement actually dealt with I believe? JOHNSON: As far as jobs were concerned. Now there were sit-ins, of course, lunch counters and so forth. But as far as jobs was concerned, the economics then that this was the first case. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of the other demonstrations such as riding the buses? JOHNSON: I participated in the marches. I did not ride any of the buses and so forth. Because, at that time I had started pastoring and there was some things connected with applying, having received threatening phone calls and having to sit up and so forth -- my health, my pressure went up and so forth and so I was not able to do too much along that line, you know because of doctors orders. He didn' ; t want me to be under too much stress. HUNTLEY: You went to the Baptist College, right? JOHNSON: I went to Estonian Baptist Seminary and I became president of that school. HUNTLEY: In addition, you also attended UAB is that correct? JOHNSON: Yes. I attended UAB for one year and I also attended Southeastern Bible College for a year. HUNTLEY: Were there other members of your family that were involved in the Movement? JOHNSON: No more than moral support. I had my wife and family members were involved morally. They supported me but direct involvement, they were not directly involved in the Movement, no more than to support me morally. HUNTLEY: But they did support you? JOHNSON: Yes. Right. HUNTLEY: So their reaction to your participation was a positive reaction? JOHNSON: Yes a positive reaction. HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested? JOHNSON: No. The only thing that happened to me was threats, you know of bombing and what have you. HUNTLEY: What kind of threats? JOHNSON: And economic pressure was applied also. I was cut off at the L& ; N. I tried to get jobs at other places and .... HUNTLEY: What do you mean you were " ; cut off at L& ; N?" ; JOHNSON: They had a reduction in force. HUNTLEY: So you were one of those... JOHNSON: I was one. Of course I was called back a little bit later on, but by the time I was out of a job I applied at some places and they just didn' ; t hire me. HUNTLEY: Do you feel that was due to your activity with the Movement? JOHNSON: I don' ; t know. I think it had some connection but during that time though the Lord saw fit to call me into the ministry and that was in September 1958 and in January of 1959 I was called to my first church. So, the Lord saw fit to employ me, you know, through a call. And so I have been pastoring since that time. HUNTLEY: What church were you initially called to? JOHNSON: I was called to Greater New Bethel Baptist Church in an East Birmingham community. So it was a church where I was more or less reared and the people knew me and I was there for 25 years until 1984 when I was called to the church where I am presently. HUNTLEY: Was your church active in the Movement? JOHNSON: Some of them. At least they supported me. And then there were some who, you know, they were not directly involved. They had more or less a negative attitude. I don' ; t think it was towards the Movement. It was more or less toward me rather, you know. HUNTLEY: Were you able to have meetings at your church? JOHNSON: No I did not have any at the church per say because our facilities were not adequate enough because the church where I was called, it was an old church and we didn' ; t have the facilities. Later on we built a new sanctuary and so forth. But there was another church of a similar name -- New Bethel. It was Greater New Bethel and that church was born because of the association of my name with that church. Somebody miscalculated, you know, they bombed that church and thought they were bombing the church where I was pastoring. HUNTLEY: Where was this church? JOHNSON: It was located approximately six blocks from where I was pastoring. HUNTLEY: In East Birmingham? JOHNSON: In East Birmingham, yes. HUNTLEY: So they miscalculated and ... JOHNSON: Yes. Didn' ; t do much damage, more or less to the front. HUNTLEY: If I ask you to select maybe the three most important events during the period that we are discussing from 1956 to 1963 when the demonstrations took place, what would those events be? JOHNSON: I would say the Alabama Christian Movement was perhaps the most important event in the City of Birmingham. Now it laid the ground work for what happened later. Now when Dr. King came aboard and this is not to take anything from him, but when he came aboard Rev. Shuttlesworth had pioneered the Movement. He had the people organized and so forth. So Dr. King did not have to go through the process per say of getting us organized. He had an organization here in Birmingham that was already in place. And so, he just sort of piggy backed on what was already there. And the moving of the " ; White only" ; from the personnel application was another big event because economics was involved. And this gave the Blacks a chance to apply for jobs and receive those jobs. It also opened up -- I was also involved in litigation concerning the legislature and running for public office along with Attorney Shores we applied and we were denied. So we had to file a suit along that line. Attorney Shores didn' ; t qualify. I didn' ; t qualify and we filed a suit along that line and of course, we won out there and he was able to apply and run for whatever he wanted and everybody else. HUNTLEY: Was this done through -- under the auspices of the Alabama Christian Movement? JOHNSON: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, you used a lot of litigation then? JOHNSON: Yes. I was involved in at least two litigations. HUNTLEY: In 1961 the Freedom Riders came to Birmingham. What do you remember about that period? JOHNSON: All I remember is that they were beaten. I also remember that on one occasion after the segregation of seating and restaurants and all of those things were declared illegal that I attended a meeting in Mobile, Alabama and I was to address the convention at that time. And I took my church with me. HUNTLEY: To Mobile? JOHNSON: To Mobile. HUNTLEY: What convention was this? JOHNSON: This was the New Progressive Baptist State Convention. I was president of the music department and I had to give an annual message. My choir and other members charted a bus to go. Upon arriving at a certain place in route, I think its Grove Hill, Alabama, the driver stopped for a rest, you know for a rest stop. And we go off the bus and of course, I assisted the women getting off the bus and the women went in the restaurant not knowing the segregation still prevailed there in Grove Hill. And they went in and started using the restroom and word had gotten over that city in about 10 minutes- the whole city had gathered there in Grove Hill. And the reason was they thought we were Freedom Riders. HUNTLEY: Is this in the ' ; 60 or ' ; 61? JOHNSON: Yes. Somewhere along in there. Of course, they locked all of the doors and wouldn' ; t serve us and so forth. We got back on the bus and moved on out. But I just thought how close we came to being victims of segregation or brutality and so forth like here in Birmingham because we were thought to have been Freedom Riders. I don' ; t remember the exact year of that but it was along that time. HUNTLEY: In ' ; 62 the Miles College students and the Alabama Christian Movement came together and developed the Selective Buying Campaign downtown, where they boycotted stores. What do you remember about that period? JOHNSON: I remember that it was very effective. We supported that movement and so forth and we were able to accomplish what we set out for. And there were persons who were hired by some stores in Birmingham to be clerks and so forth. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the atmosphere prior to the ending of those segregated facilities? Do you remember any incidents that you may have been involved with? Do you remember riding the buses or any of the ways in which segregation manifested itself in the daily lives of people? JOHNSON: I didn' ; t encounter anything that was more or less negative. To a large extent they accepted the fact that they were going to be there and so forth. So I didn' ; t encounter anything negative. What I did encounter though was -- I encountered segregation as it relates to the federal government in ' ; 63. I didn' ; t apply -- I was too old to be a police patrolman so I applied for a job with the federal government and I passed the test and I was called by Social Security. And I started to working there in ' ; 63 but what I encountered is that they would always doctor the tests. And they had requirements and everything that we had to meet in order to be promoted. And later on after having been there several years, they started a supervisor program. From the time I was hired in ' ; 63 up until I believe it was ' ; 73 we only had one Black supervisor. HUNTLEY: This is at Social Security? JOHNSON: At Social Security. And so they decided then that they were going to pool -- start a pool of supervisors and there were 15 selected and of those 15 there were three Blacks and I was one of the three Blacks. And so my question was how was I selected. Was I selected on merit. Was I just selected, you know, because they thought I was a, you know, a good so and so, you know. And so I was assured I was selected on merit. But, at the same time, the personnel director wanted to give us special attention and write it up all over the paper and so forth and I didn' ; t agree to that. You know, this is what Social Security is doing here in Birmingham and I didn' ; t agree to that because that was a reflection on the system also a reflection on us to want to have that publicity when we knew that they were not doing anything to help Blacks that much. HUNTLEY: So you wouldn' ; t cooperate? JOHNSON: I didn' ; t cooperate and I didn' ; t receive the position either because I was warned that if I continued to rock the boat that I would not be selected. HUNTLEY: So you worked for Social Security for about ten years? JOHNSON: Thirteen. HUNTLEY: For 13 years. JOHNSON: I was finally selected though because one of my tutors asked me why I was not selected because he thought I was the most qualified, you know, having -- well, at that time, serving as pastor and all of that, you know. And so I told him and he said that I' ; m going to check into it, and he did. And in about two months I was made supervisor. It just shows you how the system worked. If you have somebody on the inside, that' ; s working for you, that' ; s how the system works. HUNTLEY: What benefits did you, your family and community realize as a result of the Movement? JOHNSON: The only benefit I have realized is the satisfaction that I have done something to bring all of this to fruition. You know, I am satisfied with myself that I made a contribution. Now, I am not satisfied with not even the Civil Rights Institute because many of us who were beneficial in getting this stuff started have been overlooked and so forth. HUNTLEY: How do you think that should have been done differently? The development of the Institute? JOHNSON: I think the persons who involved should have been -- should have had some input. You know, Rev. Shuttlesworth and Rev. Woods and so forth. I think they should have been involved in making the selection of persons that they should have given the recognition to. HUNTLEY: Both of them are on the Board of Directors. JOHNSON: They are now. HUNTLEY: That' ; s one of the reasons you are probably here now is because you were selected by that advisory committee who is doing that. So evidently the word is out that there are people like you who are very concerned about how the selections have been made. JOHNSON: In fact my wife mentioned this morning, say " ; It' ; s been so long I wouldn' ; t even worry about it, you know what you' ; ve done, so if they didn' ; t give you the recognition at that time.." ; In fact, Rev. N. H. Smith asked me had I ever received any and I said " ; No, I haven' ; t." ; But I know what I did. And so I am satisfied. HUNTLEY: Well, that' ; s why we are doing this so that we can recognize people who have not been recognized and we are going to set the record straight on the Movement itself. JOHNSON: Okay. I appreciate that. HUNTLEY: This is what we are about and I appreciate you doing this. If you were in control of the Movement and could go back and change some things, what would you change? JOHNSON: Like what for instance? HUNTLEY: During the Movement say from ' ; 56 to ' ; 65 or so? JOHNSON: I would be like -- I was in the Navy as I' ; ve already said and we had an admiral that -- whose name was Farragut and when he would encounter problems and so forth, of the enemy doing damage. His words were " ; Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead." ; So I would say we would do the same thing maybe with more involvement than we even had back there then. I don' ; t regret anything that we did because it took all of that to get us where we are now. HUNTLEY: What is your assessment of the Birmingham movement? How successful was it? What were the major accomplishments and were there any failure? JOHNSON: The major accomplishments as it relates to the Movement? HUNTLEY: Yes, sir. JOHNSON: Well, I think most Blacks are aware of the accomplishments who were living at that time. What was then and what is now, you know. But there are still prestige of segregation. We have the rights but we haven' ; t changed the minds of too many people yet. There is still " ; White flight," ; you know. I' ; m in a neighborhood where I can see it, you know, still " ; White flight." ; It doesn' ; t matter how you take care of your property and so forth. They are still moving and I am also involved with the Southern Baptist. We have a committee here called Inter-Baptist Fellowship Committee. And it' ; s a liaison between White Baptists and Black Baptists and we try to bring the two together for common good. And we are really having a problem. And we are starting -- this involves the best they have, the ministers and they are afraid, you know. Because I feel that the Black pastor is the only free pastor we have. The Black Baptist pastor is the only free pastor we have here involved in our churches, you know, because they have to cater to more or less to what their members say, not what the Lord say but what their members say. And so we' ; re having a problem of trying to bring in programs involving all of them because they are afraid of what their members say if they get too much involved with this. So, as a result their churches are moving out and we are running in getting their churches and so forth which is sort of a sad commentary on our Christian faith. HUNTLEY: I guess it is rather ironic that it appears that the last bastion of segregation happens to be the church? JOHNSON: Happens to be the church. HUNTLEY: How do we account for that? JOHNSON: I would say that we have Christ in our learning. We have Christ in our system, but we don' ; t have Christ in our hearts. If Christ was in our hearts, then everybody would be a brother. You see we have Christ everywhere but where he should be and that' ; s in the heart. And I don' ; t say its on the part of the Blacks but we, to some extent, we have a lot of it to, you know. HUNTLEY: So you are talking about a certain amount of hypocrisy now? JOHNSON: It' ; s hypocrisy. That' ; s a good example of hypocrisy. HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with in relationship to the Movement? JOHNSON: I wouldn' ; t add anything as far as the Movement is concerned. But I am very concerned now as a result of the Movement where we are now, you know. The white man is not lynching us now. He is not doing these things to us now. We are doing it to each other and it reflects on what has been done -- the sacrifices that have been made by many people who have even died for that and the children now don' ; t know enough about what happened back then and so our job now is to educate our young people as to where the Lord has brought them from. And I think that' ; s our main job so that we can get back to the kind of life that we were living because our only help came from sticking together and working together during that time, you know. And now we are getting to the point we hardly know each other. HUNTLEY: So you are saying that we need to teach this history of the civil rights movement so that we can know from whence we' ; ve come? JOHNSON: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: Do you see the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute playing a role in that? JOHNSON: The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute should have a big role in that. But I don' ; t think we should all leave it to the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Those of us who are pastoring and what you should see to it that our children, at least, and we should move into the schools and let them know. We should contend that history books are written so that the Civil Rights Movement would be part of the history, more in detail than maybe -- I am not sure that we even have any Black history books now. They did when I was in school, you know, but I' ; m not sure we even have any Black history books now that would, in detail, give this kind of information and that' ; s real sad. So how are they going to learn in school when they can' ; t study the history of the Blacks. HUNTLEY: There are some and what we are hoping to do with this material that we are getting now -your interview for instance, we are hoping at some point that we will be able to utilize this to write the definitive study of the Civil Rights Movement. And the only way you can do that is by going to the people who were there, who were involved and that is people like you. JOHNSON: Let me ask you this question. What effect has it had? I know at one time you and some of the others at UAB fought to have a school set up for this. What happened? HUNTLEY: Well, we' ; re still struggling with that issue. There are some of us who believe there is a need for a Department of African American Studies. And what has happened I developed a program there 15 years ago and the program, you can just go so far with that. There' ; s a need now to expand that and the way that you do that in academia is to develop a department and the administration basically has been rather resistant to that idea. But we' ; re still struggling with that and ... JOHNSON: Is there a way that in the churches can help along that line? Is there a separation of...you know. HUNTLEY: It' ; s always important that we have the community involved and as it progress we will be in touch with people like yourself in the community to try and get that done. JOHNSON: Okay. HUNTLEY: I appreciate you asking that because there are not many people that are asking those kinds of questions. Lastly, do you have any items related to the Movement or to the development of Birmingham that you would like to donate to the Institute? JOHNSON: I looked today. I had some -- I have -- I don' ; t know where I can put my hands on it. I had letters that I wrote to the personnel board and I had a few news clippings. That' ; s about the only thing. Because when I talked to Lois, she said we didn' ; t know we were making history so as a result we didn' ; t reserve too much. We are bad on reserving our history anyway. HUNTLEY: Well, if you come across any material get in touch with myself or with Ms. Hendricks or with the archivist at the Institute and we very much appreciate it. And again, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule and you coming and sitting with us to help us really develop this story. Because the only way you get the true story is from the people who were involved and you of course were one of those. Thank you again. JOHNSON: It has been a pleasure. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=GJohnson1995.xml GJohnson1995.xml
Dublin Core
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Title
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Rev. George Johnson
Description
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Rev. George Johnson discusses combating employment discrimination in Birmingham, including by suing the Personnel Board. He continued to participate in the Movement through his church.
Identifier
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19950413J
Subject
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company
Birmingham Personnel Board (Birmingham, Ala.)
Selective Buying Campaign
Date
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1995-04-13
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video
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https://bcriohp.org/files/original/ec0b4588ca1d7a4afb9c5d07174b8945.jpg
9c7ee53d9ded41599bc37da59a881760
Dublin Core
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Title
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
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Video
Type
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Oral History
Subject
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Creator
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
Identifier
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Horace Huntley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Doris B. Thompkins
OHMS Object
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Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=DBThompkins1995.xml
Interview Keyword
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included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record.
Kelly Ingram Park--Birmingham (Ala.)
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contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 April 7, 1995 Doris B. Thompkins Interviewed on April 7, 1995 19950407T 0:37:34 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham National Association for the Advancement of Colored People Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) Kelly Ingram Park--Birmingham (Ala.) Doris B. Thompkins Horace Huntley Video 1:|1(2)|18(3)|38(12)|54(1)|74(6)|97(10)|110(3)|126(9)|139(7)|163(12)|174(6)|188(5)|202(4)|213(13)|231(1)|244(13)|270(11)|285(5)|298(6)|310(6)|329(12)|346(6)|365(9)|382(1)|403(15)|423(14)|442(3)|467(6)|484(15)|503(7)|524(5)|537(4)|558(1)|575(7)|594(12)|609(14)|622(3) 0 https://youtu.be/4dPrI7CEIPU YouTube video English 69 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Doris B. Thompkins for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. This is April 7, 1995 and I would like to thank you Mrs. Thompkins for coming out -- taking time out of your busy schedule to sit with us this morning to talk about Birmingham and the Movement. Welcome. Doris Thompkins is introduced. 33.4810, -86.9089 17 Miles College 33.5161, -86.8145 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 99 Family Background I would like to just start by asking some background questions. Where were your parents from? Doris Thompkins talks about her family and what her parents did as a living to support her and her siblings. Construction ; Maid Jefferson County (Ala.) ; Marengo County (Ala.) 260 Early Education Right. Tell me about your education. Where did you start elementary school? Doris Thompkins explains where she did her primary education growing up. Cameron Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 318 Attending College for Christian Education I see. What did you do after high school? Doris Thompkins talks about attending a few colleges in order to obtain her degree in teaching Christian education. Charm school ; Christian Education Birmingham Baptist College (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Burroughs, Nannie Helen, 1879-1961 ; Daniel Payne College (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Nannie Helen Burroughs School (Washington D.C.) 483 Working for the Birmingham Board of Education What school did you teach at in the Birmingham system? Doris Thompkins talks about working for the Birmingham Board of Education. Elementary School Education Birmingham Board of Education (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 514 Community Background What community did you live in? Doris Thompkins explains what it was like growing up in the Birmingham community of Southside as a kid. Construction ; Desegregation ; Octagon Soap Neighborhood watch programs ; Southside (Birmingham, Ala.) 889 Relationship with Birmingham Police Department What was your community's relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? Doris Thompkins explains how the relationship with the Birmingham Police Department wasn't always the most trustworthy. Distrust ; Scare Tactics Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Civil Rights Movement--Birmingham, Ala. 982 Involvement with The NAACP Were you a member of the NAACP prior to it being outlawed from operating in the State of Alabama? Doris Thompkins talks about her role with the NAACP. Member Campaigns ; Voter Registration National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 1034 The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights The NAACP was outlawed from operating in the State of Alabama in 1956. That basically left a void. But something happened at that point that would fill that void. Can you tell me about the development of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. Doris Thompkins explains how once the NAACP was outlawed that Rev. Shuttlesworth began the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. Demonstrations--United States ; Jail ; Mass Meetings Patterson, John ; Sardis Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; The National Association for The Advancement of Colored People 1143 1st Time Going to Jail Tell me about the first time that you went to jail. Doris Thompkins explains how she went to jail for sitting in the front of the bus on the way to her destination, spending 5 days in jail. Jail ; Mass Meetings ; Public Transportation--Desegregation--Birmingham (Ala.) Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Ensley (Birmingham, Ala.) ; The Daily World 1293 Attending Mass Meetings of the ACMHR Can you then describe to me what a typical mass meeting was like? Doris Thompskins explains going to the mass meetings at the Alabama Christian Movement and how sometimes word would get out about the members, causing them to lose their jobs. Mass Meetings ; Police Officers Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1474 2nd Time Going to Jail What was the circumstances of the second time that you were arrested? Doris Thompkins talks about being detained at a department store in Birmingham for speaking to a white customer, calling it the 2nd time she got arrested. Interrogations ; Public Urination J.J. Newberry's (Birmingham, Ala.) 1660 Family Involvement in the Movement Did others in your family participate in the Movement? Doris Thompkins talks about her niece's involvement in the movement, as well as the support from her family. Marching Civil Rights Movement--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Fair Park (Birmingham, Ala.) 1788 Church Involvement in The Movement What was the level of involvement of your pastor and your church? Doris Thompkins talks about her church being with her most of the way through the movement. New Pilgrim Baptist Church Church--Civil Rights Movement--Birmingham (Ala.) 1822 Benefits From The Movement What benefits did you, your family, your community realize as a result of the Movement? Doris Thompkins discusses the benefits of the movement, such as better interracial communication. Civil RIghts Movement--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Communication--Blacks and Whites ; God 1934 Demonstrating After The 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing Doris Thompkins talks about marching in the streets after the 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing in Birmingham, Alabama. Fire Hoses ; Police Brutality ; Police Dogs ; Water Hoses 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement--Demonstrations--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Kelly Ingram Park--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Memorial Park--Birmingham (Ala.) 2114 Trusting in God Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with relating to your activity in the Civil Rights Movement? Doris Thompkins explains that the way to continue to move forward is with trust in God. Faith and ideology King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 2200 Conclusion of Interview Well, I want to thank you for taking the time again Mrs. Thompkins to just give us information that you have because what we are attempting to do is to gather information from individuals who were actively involved like yourself so that information can be housed at the Civil Rights Institute. And I just want to thank you again for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit with us this morning. Thank you. Interview is concluded. Oral History Doris B. Thompkins discusses growing up on the Southside before getting involved with the Movement. She was a member of the NAACP prior to it being banned and she was arrested twice for demonstrating. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Doris B. Thompkins for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. This is April 7, 1995 and I would like to thank you Mrs. Thompkins for coming out -- taking time out of your busy schedule to sit with us this morning to talk about Birmingham and the Movement. Welcome. I would like to just start by asking some background questions. Where were your parents from? THOMPKINS: Marengo and Jefferson County -- they' ; re from Marengo and Jefferson County. HUNTLEY: Your mother is from -- THOMPKINS: My mother is from Jefferson County. HUNTLEY: And your father is from Marengo County? THOMPKINS: Marengo County. HUNTLEY: Well, were you born here in Jefferson County? THOMPKINS: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? THOMPKINS: I have five sisters and one brother. HUNTLEY: And you are -- how are you in terms of number? Where were you listed? THOMPKINS: I am the second oldest child. HUNTLEY: Second oldest child. Tell me just a bit about your parents -- the time they spent in school and the occupations that they had. THOMPKINS: Well, at their time going to school, as it was in many cases, they didn' ; t get as far at school as they would have like to have done due to circumstantial evidences where they maybe had to come out and work and different things of that nature where it has been true in many Afro-American families. HUNTLEY: Sure. Yes. I remember my grandmother. She couldn' ; t read nor write, but she' ; s the smartest person I' ; ve ever known. But, she was basically sort of my mentor, so we raise the question about education and there are a lot of ways that you can be educated. What about your parents' ; occupations? Did your mother work outside of the home? THOMPKINS: She did. She worked outside of the home and they both were what we called, at that time, common laborers. HUNTLEY: Do you remember what companies they worked for? THOMPKINS: No. I know my father did construction work. That was, various different companies. My mother was doing what we now call a housekeeper. At that time they called it maid work or domestic work. And so that was for different people. I couldn' ; t remember just how many different places. But she stayed pretty well in one job a long period of time. HUNTLEY: And in addition to raising a number of children as well, she had two jobs. THOMPKINS: She had two jobs. Full-time homemaker and then she worked outside the house. HUNTLEY: Right. Tell me about your education. Where did you start elementary school? THOMPKINS: I started and finished elementary school at the then Cameron Elementary School. Dr. Noah E. Wills was the principal and Mrs. Lucille Boyd and Mrs. Christianita D. Carnes were my favorite teachers. HUNTLEY: And you went from first through eighth grade? THOMPKINS: First through eighth grade at Cameron. HUNTLEY: Then where did you go from there? THOMPKINS: Then I left Cameron and I went to Ullman High School. The late Mr. George C. Bell was the principal. HUNTLEY: Did you finish? Did you graduate from Ullman? THOMPKINS: Ullman was then a junior high school. I did finish and I went to Parker. HUNTLEY: And that is where you finished high school? THOMPKINS: Yes. I went to Ullman 9th and 10th grade and 11th and 12th grades at Parker. HUNTLEY: I see. What did you do after high school? THOMPKINS: After high school I went to the Birmingham Baptist College. It is now known as the Birmingham Easonian Baptist Bible College and I stayed there about four years. I finished there and I went back -- I was in and out of school all of my life. HUNTLEY: Were you preparing for the ministry there? THOMPKINS: No. I was preparing for missionary work and Christian education. HUNTLEY: What did you do after you finished at the bible school? THOMPKINS: After I finished the bible school I went to Nannie Helen Burroughs School in Washington, D.C. I went then to Daniel Payne College and back to the bible college twice. HUNTLEY: How did you happen to decide upon going to D.C. and to Miss Burroughs' ; school? THOMPKINS: I have a god-mother, Mrs. Emolyn Reese who was very instrumental. She was my mentor in Christian education and she was very instrumental in me going to Nannie Helen Burroughs' ; school. The late Mrs. Corinne Watts was the youth director at that time and I was always active in the church work and very civic in other organizations. So, at her suggestion and her assistance, I enrolled in the Nannie Helen Burroughs School with a scholarship. HUNTLEY: Did you meet or know Mrs. Burroughs? Did you get to work with her? THOMPKINS: The late Nannie Helen Burroughs? HUNTLEY: Yes. THOMPKINS: Yes. I met and work for and with Mrs. Burroughs. Mrs. Burroughs, and I count it a blessing to have known her. She was an inspiration to all those who knew and worked with her and for her. HUNTLEY: Obviously she is very, very well known as an educator throughout the country and she obviously has been an inspiration to you. What was next after D.C. and the Burroughs' ; school? THOMPKINS: After D.C. I came back and I finished Daniel Payne. I went to charm and modeling school while I was working. I taught school five days a week. At charm school on Saturday and model with my students when and wherever they worked. HUNTLEY: What school did you teach at in the Birmingham system? THOMPKINS: I would be on the safe side if I said I worked for the Birmingham Board of Education because we were moved about as they saw fit to move us. During the civil rights institution, if you were identified any with, you were lucky to have been working anywhere. HUNTLEY: Well, did you teach elementary school or high school? THOMPKINS: I taught elementary school. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in? THOMPKINS: I lived on the Southside of Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Was that where you were born and reared -- on the Southside? THOMPKINS: I was born and reared on the Southside of Birmingham in various communities. HUNTLEY: How would you describe your community that you lived in? THOMPKINS: The community that I remember mostly in my growing up had an outside toilet, the whole neighborhood used one toilet and the whole neighborhood kept the toilet clean. We had outside water -- there was no hot and cold water. We had a No. 2 and No. 3 bathing tin tubs. There was no such thing as a bathtub. You used one of those wash tubs as your bathtub. There was no such thing as Ivory soap and all this nice soap we know now. We took a bath with Octagon soap. You did primarily everything with Octagon soap. HUNTLEY: What' ; s Octagon soap? THOMPKINS: Octagon soap. HUNTLEY: Yes. What kind of soap is that? THOMPKINS: It' ; s a -- was a long bar of soap about twice the size of two bars of Ivory now. It' ; s a yellow type of soap. We washed our clothes in Ivory soap because there were no washing machines. You heated your water on the stove after you made a fire in the stove with the kindling and paper and coal that we had to go outside and get because there were no boys in my family -- the last one was a boy. Therefore, the girls had to get in coal. What we used for -- to get the coal in was a called scuttle. It is something like a little foot tub. We had to get in so many scuttles of coal. We had to cut wood and we got up the next morning -- there was no gas to turn on. You had to make the wood, make the fire, strike a match and after the fire was made, you had to give the time for the stove to get hot, then you heated your water and took your bath. Then, you had to also have to have a fire made in the stove while your water was getting hot here, the stove had to get hot so the oven could be ready for you to make your bread and whatever you were going to cook for that day. HUNTLEY: What about the various occupations of individuals that lived in your community. What kind of occupations did they have? THOMPKINS: Mostly people in our -- in my community were housekeepers or maids as they were called then. Some of them worked at schools. They were custodians at school. They were called maids at that time. We didn' ; t have upgraded titles as we know them now. You were a maid. There were certain jobs that were designated for a Black. If you were a Black, you knew you were not going to answer a telephone. That was a no-no. You knew you were not going to drive a bus. That was a no-no. Yet, we had many people capable of doing these things, but because we were fighting desegregation and his eagles, we were not allowed to do these particular things. So, you had certain jobs that you knew that were for Afro-Americans or Blacks. THOMPKINS: You washed dishes in the cafeteria. You did maid work all over buildings and homes. You made the labor work or construction work. You never were a supervisor. That was a no-no. We all did what we would consider now underdog work. HUNTLEY: What about recreation in your community? THOMPKINS: Well, recreation in the community was very limited. We made our toys. We made our dolls out of Coca-Cola bottles with some ice strings because we had no refrigerators. You had ice that you put a burlap sack around to keep your meats and things cold. So we would take the ice strings after the ice was placed in the proper place and put the strings in the Coca-Cola bottle and these were our dolls. THOMPKINS: We played baseball, volleyball and the other recreation games that I particularly liked in our community. I took part in the games at school. We had a lot of games at school. The late Mrs. Boyd taught us Physical Ed when there was not a required course in Physical Ed. She just was gifted and dedicated enough to know that we needed this so she saw to us having these games to permit us to develop in such a manner as we should using physical education activities. HUNTLEY: As a grown-up in your communities, what kind of organizations do you remember were organized in the communities? THOMPKINS: As a grown-up, you mean the communities that I lived in? HUNTLEY: That you lived in, yes. As an adult? THOMPKINS: There was no such organization as we know it now. We had then what they called Neighborhood Watch. We wasn' ; t organized as such but we just watched out for each other. You left your doors open and went on to the store or wherever you had to go. The other neighbors just watched out for you. But, there were no organized groups as we know them now. HUNTLEY: What was your community' ; s relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? THOMPKINS: At that time, the Birmingham Police Department from individual policemen had very good rapport with the community. But most of them, at that time, there was very little communication that they wanted certain things done they would have to send Officer X or Officer Y or else the community wouldn' ; t talk to anybody else. They didn' ; t have the confidence in the rest of them. HUNTLEY: So did the community look at the police department as being there to protect and serve the community? THOMPKINS: Not necessarily so. In some instances, as I said it depended on the officer. But as a whole, they sort of looked to them to protect them. But, not as they do now or not as we thought they should have done. Because they were not as close. The policeman was looked upon as a -- if somebody coming through here -- oh, oh, here come the policeman-- you just knew to get out the way. Because the way they do -- they would come in the manner, you know, frightening so the people were afraid. But once they met one or two and learned and talk with those one or two, then they would relate to those. HUNTLEY: I know that you were actively involved with the Civil Rights Movement. THOMPKINS: Excuse me? HUNTLEY: You were actively involved with the Civil Rights Movement. THOMPKINS: Very much so. HUNTLEY: Were you a member of the NAACP prior to it being outlawed from operating in the State of Alabama? THOMPKINS: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: What kind of activities were you involved with the NAACP? THOMPKINS: Membership campaign and whatever the headquarters in New York would designate for me to do in that area. HUNTLEY: Were you ever involved in voter registration drives? THOMPKINS: I was. HUNTLEY: Do you remember when you went to apply to become a registered voter? THOMPKINS: When I went to apply to be a registered voter things had simmered down a little bit then. I didn' ; t have any problems. HUNTLEY: No problems at that time. THOMPKINS: No problems. HUNTLEY: The NAACP was outlawed from operating in the State of Alabama in 1956. That basically left a void. But something happened at that point that would fill that void. Can you tell me about the development of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights.THOMPKINS: After the NAACP was no longer operating in the State of Alabama, as outlawed by the then governor, John Patterson, Dr. Fred Shuttles worth became very upset over this. He, along with other persons whom he talked with, became very seriously -- Shuttles worth became very seriously upset about this. So he said at that point, we need to do something. Something has to be done. We have nobody to speak for us. We are not strong enough to speak individually, so something needs to be done. At that time he called the group of people together at the then Sardis Baptist Church on Enon Ridge and organized the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. He said he was naming it the Human Rights so this would include everybody because he realized we were not the only ones who had been oppressed. HUNTLEY: You were relatively a young person at the time -- in your early twenties. What role did you play in the initial organization of the Alabama Christian Movement? THOMPKINS: I attended the mass meetings. I marched and I went to jail. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the first time that you went to jail. THOMPKINS: The first time I went to jail we were in the process of desegregating public riding facilities, or public transportation rather. I was sitting on the bus reading my Daily Word, minding my very own business and I had to go to Ensley. I boarded the bus on Second Avenue and 19th Street downtown. Instead of taking us to where I had originally decided to go, the bus driver carried myself and all those who were on the bus straight to the transit company car bond. There we were met by the paddy wagons and hauled off to jail. HUNTLEY: Were all of those people that were on the bus, were they all demonstrating? THOMPKINS: The whole bus went to jail. HUNTLEY: But were all of those organized to demonstrate that day on the bus? THOMPKINS: Yes, apparently they were because nobody resented being gone wherever the bus went. Nobody got off or asked to be let off before that time. HUNTLEY: How long did you stay in jail? THOMPKINS: I stayed in jail five days without visitation. HUNTLEY: Five days without visitation. THOMPKINS: Not even the church could send us anything that we needed. The only way we got help there was one of the young ladies with us, Miss Annie Berkley was with us at that time. She made friends with one of the trustees and when we needed something, he would get word to our church how we were doing. Otherwise that' ; s the only way they would know that we were all right. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me -- we know that you were one of those initial individuals that started the Alabama Christian Movement. You were among the group. A young person. Were you at the initial meeting of the Alabama Christian Movement? THOMPKINS: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: Then you probably attended many, many mass meetings? THOMPKINS: Yes, I did. HUNTLEY: Can you then describe to me what a typical mass meeting was like? THOMPKINS: In our mass meetings, we discussed many things that we were planning to do. But we had learned that everything we discussed in some of the meetings were getting back to the wrong people. So, consequently, there were some things at meetings that were not discussed publicly. They were only known by our authoritative people, Rev. Shuttles worth, Dr. Smith and Mr. Robey and all the secretaries at that time. Those people knew and they would not publicly tell us what they were going to do. If they wanted you to do something, they would get you otherwise to keep it from getting out what we were going to do-- word got blocked because it got to the wrong people at the wrong time. HUNTLEY: Who were the wrong people? THOMPKINS: The oppressors. HUNTLEY: It' ; s my understanding that there were police officers that were present at the meetings. THOMPKINS: There were, many times. HUNTLEY: Is that the way that the word would get back to the wrong people? THOMPKINS: Seemingly some of it would get back that way. But then, some of it got through by some of those attending the meetings because the police officer was not a housekeeper, he was not a maid. Yet, when some of the maids got to work the next day, many of them were fired because they learned they had been to a meeting. Just fired on the spot because they knew they had been to a mass meeting. HUNTLEY: So it was rather difficult for those who were working then, for White people to attend the meetings because they were subject to being dismissed? THOMPKINS: It was just as hard for all the Whites as it was for the Blacks. It was even harder for the well thinking White people who wanted things to be resolved. Many of them we found wanted things to be resolved but they were afraid because they were being harassed as much as we were. HUNTLEY: Were there Whites attending the mass meetings? THOMPKINS: Very few but some were. Some just came out the closet and just came on to the meetings and like we see them doing now -- ignore them and just came on. As Mrs. Liuzzo, the lady that was killed. HUNTLEY: That' ; s Viola THOMPKINS: Viola, right. Some of them just came on out anyway and risk their lives as well as we did ours because they said it had to be done. We realized that somebody had to start, so we didn' ; t mind it. HUNTLEY: You described now the first time that you went to jail. How many times were you arrested? THOMPKINS: I was arrested two times. HUNTLEY: What was the circumstances of the second time that you were arrested? THOMPKINS: The second time I was in a department store downtown. HUNTLEY: Which department store? THOMPKINS: J. J. Newberry' ; s. A young man came in to buy some records and I was browsing around for earrings and things the ladies like, but I had to pass by him to get what I needed. He was getting ready to go out the door and I heard him ask for the record and I said to him " ; have you tried Shelley the Playboy' ; s Record Mart? You might find the record there." ; Immediately I was hauled off into one room with no doors out, just the one room. HUNTLEY: Who took you to that room? THOMPKINS: The store security who was dressed in plain clothes. HUNTLEY: And what was the purpose, why did he take you to that room? THOMPKINS: He took me because she said I was telling the young man to go to Shelley " ; The Playboy' ; s" ; Record Mart and buy his record -- don' ; t buy his records there. Any little thing that you said they took it out of context and took it the way they want it to be and made it to be what they want it to do and arrest you. HUNTLEY: So what happened in the room? THOMPKINS: What happened in the room? They made me sign an affidavit that I would never be seen in that store anymore under any circumstances for any purpose. If so, I would immediately be arrested and may not be allowed bond. HUNTLEY: So you were then not arrested, you were detained in the room. Were you taken on to jail? THOMPKINS: No. I was not taken on to jail, but I consider that as an arrest because she made me sign things that I did not want to sign and there was only one way out of the room and she had to let me out and that was the only way I was going to get out. I did ask to go to the restroom while I was in there and she would not even let me out to use the restroom. So, this doesn' ; t sound very pretty, but she didn' ; t let me use the restroom so she had a waste basket there so I made a restroom out of it right in front of her -- because I really had to go. HUNTLEY: She was the only person -- THOMPKINS: It was all ladies in there but they could have followed me, if necessary, you know to go to the restrooms and let me go and discharge properly but they wouldn' ; t and I could not hold it. I kept saying to her I had to go and I explained the condition to her and so she -- I said " ; you may go with me, come go with me." ; She wouldn' ; t go with me, she wouldn' ; t let me out. So I just could not wait and I told her " ; now I dread doing this, because I think more of myself than this, but now this is something you have no control over. You won' ; t let me go, so here goes." ; And I let go. HUNTLEY: Did you ever go back to Newberry' ; s after that? THOMPKINS: No, I did not. HUNTLEY: Have you been back to Newberry' ; s since that event? THOMPKINS: No, I have not. HUNTLEY: Well, Newberry' ; s is about to close now I believe, so I guess you probably never will get that chance again. THOMPKINS: Thank God they are. HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate in the Movement? THOMPKINS: Yes. I had a niece to -- I had a niece that did. HUNTLEY: How active was she? THOMPKINS: Very active. She was with the group of young people that were arrested to go to Fair Park. When they took them to Fair Park those young people raised so much sand, they said that we did not march to go to Fair Park we want to go to jail with everybody else. They kept telling them the jail was crowded. They said " ; well we didn' ; t march to go to Fair Park." ; So they had to end up taking those young people to the overcrowded jail as it was. They would not rest. They said, " ; we marched to go to jail. We want to go to jail where everybody else is." ; HUNTLEY: So they didn' ; t consider Fair Park as being jail? THOMPKINS: Right. But they took them to jail when they got through with them. They were glad to take them to jail. HUNTLEY: How did other family members of yours react to your participation? THOMPKINS: I don' ; t think they were -- I don' ; t think the family members were too surprised because they know that I have always stood by my convictions. I might not always be right but they knew I have always stood by my own convictions -- that nobody pushes me into anything but if I decide this is what I want to do, then I just might do that. They weren' ; t surprised and they did not know where I was. And I was asked if your family knew where you were. And I said " ; no, but they' ; ll know it when they see the 5:00 o' ; clock news." ; And that' ; s when they knew I was in jail. They weren' ; t worried about me then. HUNTLEY: Did other brothers and sisters ever participate? THOMPKINS: No. HUNTLEY: So, you were sort of the lone one that decided to participate in the movement. What church were you a member of? THOMPKINS: New Pilgrim Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: What was the level of involvement of your pastor and your church? THOMPKINS: My pastor and my church was very much involved as much as I was. The pastor was very much involved. The church, I' ; d say was about 80% because there was still those who did not. Well the church was totally involved because those who didn' ; t march they supported us. HUNTLEY: Who was your pastor? THOMPKINS: Dr. Nelson H. Smith, Jr. HUNTLEY: And he was quite actively involved so he sort of set the example then for the rest of the church, I assume? THOMPKINS: Right. HUNTLEY: What benefits did you, your family, your community realize as a result of the Movement? THOMPKINS: We have realized the things that a family, myself and others are enjoying today. We have enjoyed the communications. There are better communication between Black, White and other minority groups. They look upon you now for who you are and not the color or your skin, more or less. We still have some diehards out there and that' ; s what they are " ; die hards" ; and that' ; s what they are going to do " ; die hard." ; Because they refuse to let God in their lives and realize that all blood is red and out of one blood came all nations. So we have realized the things that we are enjoying now and there is more to come. HUNTLEY: So you would suggest that the Movement then was, in fact, a success? THOMPKINS: The Movement is a success but not as much as I' ; d like to see it be. Because the Movement is still moving, but we need some more of the kids moving with us. If our young people come on later, they seem to take these things for granted that they are enjoying. That it' ; s always been this way, but it has not always been this way and if they don' ; t get on the bandwagon and help us keep moving, they will be back where we are talking about. They are trying to move back fast, but those people who see the things as we see them and are willing to put God with them, God in front, God behind and God on each side and walk right on through, they can accomplish much. Because He has overcome the world and we can accomplish things much in His strength. HUNTLEY: Let me back up just a minute and just ask you about the demonstrations in ' ; 63. The mass demonstrations from April and May of 1963. Were you still actively involved at that time? THOMPKINS: April and May of ' ; 63? HUNTLEY: Yes. THOMPKINS: I certainly was. That' ; s when Sixteenth Street Church was bombed. HUNTLEY: Yes. That was right after. THOMPKINS: I didn' ; t get in the bombing, but I was somewhere else marching. I think we were marching towards, if I' ; m not sure. There was a group of us marching towards Sixteenth Street because I think we had marched all over town and we might have been getting ready to go to a meeting or something during that time just before that Sunday that the church was bombed. But, I was somewhere marching, I remember that much. HUNTLEY: The church was bombed in September. The big demonstrations were in April and the children, of course, got involved in May -- the first few days of May. This is when the water hoses and the police dogs and Bull Conner came out. What do you remember about that? THOMPKINS: I remember leaving the 9th Street site from 6th Avenue of our church where it was located then. We were walking to Fair Park -- I mean to Memorial Park and as we were approaching Memorial Park that' ; s where we met Bull Conner and the fire hoses and the water. HUNTLEY: What happened? THOMPKINS: We got wet and almost blown away from the force of the water. HUNTLEY: Were you, at that point, in a position where you actually got wet and were you not arrested at that time? THOMPKINS: Yes. They took you wet, dry, they didn' ; t care how you were. Just so they got us to jail, they didn' ; t care. HUNTLEY: Then the marching on the Southside, in Memorial Park, that' ; s one of those that' ; s very popularly know and people talk about that one all the time. Were you involved in any of the demonstrations downtown in Kelley Ingram Park -- THOMPKINS: All of those. HUNTLEY: -- between 16th Street? THOMPKINS: All of those that I can remember were predominately downtown in that area. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about those? THOMPKINS: I remember that the park was very nasty. It was not well kept as it is now because nobody cared. We were just there they didn' ; t care whether we kept it up or not. And when we got to Kelley Ingram Park many of our meetings were held at the Sixteenth Street Church and when it was hot, we were out in the park. Many of the meetings were outdoors. HUNTLEY: Meetings in the park? THOMPKINS: In the park. HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with relating to your activity in the Civil Rights Movement? THOMPKINS: Yes. I think that it cannot be over stressed or over emphasized to our young people that there is a need for you to keep trusting God, put God first and keep moving because there' ; s nothing out here in the streets shooting up everybody and all these things we say and we say we are fighting for civil rights. No. This is not Dr. King' ; s dream and this is not the way. The way is plain and simple. We' ; ve got to love everybody. We' ; ve got to love everybody regardless of race, creed or color and we' ; ve got to move together in unity. And our Black young people have got to stop doing things to each other and start looking up and have to want to do. If they want something with God' ; s, help they can do it. We' ; ve got to get a new lease on self-image and we' ; ve got to re-evaluate ourselves and put our priorities in the right place. And I think with this, the Movement will still be moving. HUNTLEY: Well, I want to thank you for taking the time again Mrs. Thompkins to just give us information that you have because what we are attempting to do is to gather information from individuals who were actively involved like yourself so that information can be housed at the Civil Rights Institute. And I just want to thank you again for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit with us this morning. Thank you. THOMPKINS: Thank you very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=DBThompkins1995.xml DBThompkins1995.xml
Dublin Core
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Title
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Doris B. Thompkins
Description
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Doris B. Thompkins discusses growing up on the Southside before getting involved with the Movement. She was a member of the NAACP prior to it being banned and she was arrested twice for demonstrating.
Identifier
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19950407T
Subject
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People
Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights
Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.)
Date
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1995-04-07
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video
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https://bcriohp.org/files/original/cbd14a36a195cda62d95d79502f758be.jpg
a8209e486b1c71898b1d5bf0f030a3fe
Dublin Core
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Title
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
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Video
Type
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Oral History
Subject
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Horace Huntley
Interviewee
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Annie Marie Butler
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Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AMButler1995.xml
Interview Keyword
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included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
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Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights
New Hope Baptist Church
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5.4 June 7, 1995 Annie Marie Butler 19950607B 0:28:50 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights New Hope Baptist Church Annie Marie Butler Horace Huntley Video 1:|19(6)|42(9)|61(8)|75(16)|89(11)|106(1)|120(1)|132(6)|147(12)|166(14)|182(15)|196(12)|215(4)|239(2)|253(13)|267(4)|281(14)|297(13)|314(9)|336(8)|352(2)|385(2)|401(2)|411(9)|424(8)|433(11)|454(2)|467(12) 0 https://youtu.be/Q1RyJIwHQTA YouTube video English 26 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Annie Marie Butler for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 38 Background and Family Life I just want to start by asking you a few general questions about your family. Butler discusses where she grew up in Avondale and what her parents did for a living. Avondale (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Tennessee Coal, Iron, and Railroad Company Birmingham (Ala.) 256 Educational Journey Tell me about your schooling. Where did you start elementary school? Butler recalls where she went to school and what her job was when she graduated high school. Parker High School ; Ullman High School Avondale (Birmingham, Ala.) 409 Involvement in the Alabama Christian Movement In 1956, when the NAACP was outlawed from operating in the State of Alabama, the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized. Butler discusses her involvement in the ACM and the relationship between Reverend Shuttlesworth and Bull Connor. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 572 Her Son's Involvement in Integrating Phillips High School Then, in '57, Shuttlesworth and Rev. Pfiffer attempted to enroll some children into Phillips High School, do you know anything about that? Butler recalls her son going to Phillips High School with Reverend Shuttlesworth to integrate the school. Phillips High School ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Integration 683 Preparation for the Integration of Phillips High School Well, can you tell me what kind of preparation was made? Butler describes the preparation for the integration and how the children went to the hospital after Reverend Shuttlesworth was attacked. Phillips High School ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Integration 816 Losing Her Job In looking at how that developed, did that sort of solidify your participation in the Movement? Butler states that she lost her job due to her involvement in the movement and how she became director of the kindergarten at her church. Civil rights movement ; Stone, Herman Birmingham (Ala.) 984 Attending Mass Meetings Was New Hope one of the churches where the mass meetings would be held? Butler recalls what the mass meetings were like at her church and how the police would be there to monitor the meetings. Civil rights movement ; Mass meetings ; New Hope Baptist Church Birmingham (Ala.) 1108 Membership Committee and Her Family's Involvement You were a member of the Membership Committee Butler discusses her involvement with the membership committee and how her family members went to meetings but did not participate. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Birmingham (Ala.) 1201 Aftermath of the Attempt at Integrating Phillips High School I know after your son, along with Shuttlesworth's children and Rev. Pfiffer's children, they attempted to integrate Phillips High School, and you were not successful in that, what did you do? Butler recalls how the movement filed a lawsuit against the school and tells how only her oldest son participated in the integration. Integration ; Phillips High School ; Rev. Pfiffer ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 1295 Her Church's Involvement in the Movement You say you were a member of New Hope? That means that your church was actively involved in the Movement? Butler states that her church was very active in the movement and how people supported her pastor's efforts. New Hope Baptist Church ; Stone, Herman Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1329 Integrating Schools and Organizing Sit-ins If I were to ask you what was your most vivid memory of the Movement days, what would you say? Butler recalls what she remembers most about the movement. Civil rights movement ; Integration ; Sit-ins Birmingham (Ala.) 1451 Memories of Her Family Being Threatened If there is anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with during this conversation. Butler recalls her family being threatened over her son trying to integrate Phillips High School. Integration ; Phillips High School Birmingham (Ala.) ; Racism--United States 1673 Conclusion of Interview Okay. We will be in touch with you about that. Thank you very much for taking your time. Interview is concluded. Oral History Annie Marie Butler discusses losing her job as a result of being involved with the Movement. Her son attempted to integrate Phillips High School with Rev. Shuttlesworth and his family. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Annie Marie Butler for the Birmingham Civil Rights lnstitute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 7, 1995. Mrs. Butler, thank you for taking time out of your schedule to come and be with us today. BUTLER: Thank you. HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking you a few general questions about your family. Where your parents from? BUTLER: They were from south Alabama, Marengo County, called Dayton, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Both of them were from Dayton? BUTLER: Both of them. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Dayton? BUTLER: Yes, I was born in Dayton, Alabama. HUNTLEY: When did you come to Birmingham? BUTLER: I came to Birmingham when I was 11 years old. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have? BUTLER: I didn' ; t have any brothers and sisters. I am an only child. HUNTLEY: Did they spoil you? BUTLER: Well, I was rotten. HUNTLEY: Tell me just a little about your parents' ; education. How much education did they have? BUTLER: My mother and father didn' ; t have a high school education, but they did go to school. I don' ; t remember how many years they went, but they did go to school. They knew basic reading and writing. HUNTLEY: Most Black people didn' ; t go to school formally during those times in ways that we are doing today. What about their occupations? What kind of work did your mother do? BUTLER: When my mother was young they all did farming. And, then, when we moved to Birmingham my father worked in the mine and my mother did private homework. HUNTLEY: Was he a coal miner or an ore miner? BUTLER: Coal miner. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in as a child growing up? BUTLER: Avondale. HUNTLEY: What mine did he work, do you know? BUTLER: No. It was in Overton, Alabama. I don' ; t know the name of it. HUNTLEY: You then were brought up in Avondale. How would you describe your community? BUTLER: The community was all Black. We didn' ; t have any other races in the community. But it was a pretty nice community. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did people do? Were most of them miners? BUTLER: A lot of them worked for the Tennessee Company, I think. HUNTLEY: Oh, TCI? BUTLER: TCI. And there was another place, Stock Valve and Fitting because that' ; s right out there in Avondale. That' ; s where my children' ; s daddy worked. HUNTLEY: I see. Did your mother work outside at the home when you were growing up? BUTLER: She worked in a private home for the White people. HUNTLEY: In that general area? BUTLER: Around in the Avondale, East Avondale and Woodlawn. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your schooling. Where did you start elementary school? BUTLER: It was called East Avondale, it was Avondale school but it was in East Avondale, not directly just right in the center Avondale, but it was called East Avondale and that' ; s where I went and graduated to the ninth grade. Then I went to Ullman High School on the Southside. And at that time we were going to Ullman two years and then we transferred over to Parker two years. HUNTLEY: You graduated from Parker then? BUTLER: I went to Ullman two years, I went to Parker a year, then I dropped out of school and I went to night school. I finished in the night school. HUNTLEY: How would you describe Ullman High School and Parker High School during that time? BUTLER: Well, to me they were real nice schools because that' ; s all we knew about at the time. So both of them were real nice schools. HUNTLEY: Were there any particular teachers that you remember most in those schools, and if so, why would you remember them? BUTLER: I remember Ms. Hayes. I don' ; t remember her first name. I think she was an algebra teacher. I was real fond of algebra and I remember her. As far as the rest of them, I didn' ; t remember those in Parker too much. HUNTLEY: After high school, did you go on and get a job? BUTLER: That' ; s when I got the job at Robert James Company. HUNTLEY: What did you do at Robert James Company? BUTLER: At Robert James Company I did the errands. I used to go downtown and pick up the mail for them or go pick up things that they needed. HUNTLEY: In 1956 when the NAACP was outlawed from operating In the State of Alabama, the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized. Were you actively involved at that time? BUTLER: I joined the Alabama Christian Movement at that time and we enjoyed going to the meetings. Our church was involved and that' ; s how I got involved with it because our church was Involved. And each Monday night we would go to different churches and have this meeting. Rev. Shuttlesworth would have different speakers. And, the police and all would be there and he talked about Bull Conner, a lot. Because he was the mayor, I think he was the mayor. HUNTLEY: He was Police Commissioner. BUTLER: Commissioner of the city. It wasn' ; t fun what we were doing but just to hear him talk about Bull Conner was just amazing. HUNTLEY: What did he say about Bull Conner? BUTLER: Well, he would just make remarks that he was against the Black people. HUNTLEY: So Shuttlesworth would make fun but those were probably very serious kinds of things that he was doing. BUTLER: Right. Because a lot of people was afraid for him to be talking like he did. HUNTLEY: How did you look at Shuttlesworth? Was he different than most other pastors that you knew at the time? BUTLER: Well, I liked him and enjoyed him. But it seemed to me like he had a lot of nerve to do things -- to say things and do things that he did. A lot of the pastors were afraid to come out in the open with what they had to say. And I believe he was real in what he was saying. HUNTLEY: Were you involved with the NAACP prior to getting involved with the Alabama Christian Movement? BUTLER: No, I wasn' ; t. HUNTLEY: Then, in ' ; 57, Shuttlesworth and Rev. Pfiffer attempted to enroll some children into Phillips High School, do you know anything about that? BUTLER: Yes. My son was -- I had assigned for him to be enrolled. HUNTLEY: So he was one of the students that were attempting to enroll in Phillips in 1957? BUTLER: Yes, he was. HUNTLEY: Then he was with Shuttlesworth the morning that he went up to Phillips and was attacked by the mobs? BUTLER: Yes, he was in the car. HUNTLEY: Were you there? BUTLER: Well, like I say, I was driving for the Robert James Company and I had to go downtown. I knew the time, they didn' ; t announce when they were going to go. I don' ; t know how it was when they were going, but I did drive down that way. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me what kind of feeling that a mother has knowing that her son was at Phillips High School? And of course, looking at this in the context of these times, that was a rather dangerous place to be at that particular time. Why did you decide to allow your son to be a part of it? BUTLER: I agreed that he do it because I wanted the schools to be integrated because it just wasn' ; t fair the way they would treat the Black kids and they couldn' ; t go to all the schools. They didn' ; t have the things at the Black schools that they had at the White schools. HUNTLEY: Well, can you tell me what kind of preparation was made? What happened the night before the kids were going down to Phillips with Shuttlesworth? What did the Movement or Rev. Shuttlesworth or others, do to help prepare you all for that encounter? BUTLER: They called us and told us what time. I don' ; t remember whether they picked them up or whether we took them to a certain place but they told us what time to have them ready. HUNTLEY: Were you all just selected or did you volunteer or how were you chosen? BUTLER: It was volunteer. HUNTLEY: You volunteered. So they left that morning and went up to Phillips High School. We know that Shuttlesworth was attacked and beaten, his wife was stabbed in the hip at the time. How did your son react? What did he say about this experience? BUTLER: It seemed to me like he was a little frightened by what had happened down there from looking at the picture that was in the newspaper. HUNTLEY: His picture was in the paper? BUTLER: Yes. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances? Was he inside the car or what did the picture show? BUTLER: It didn' ; t show inside the car. It showed them, I imagine they made these pictures at the hospital. HUNTLEY: So they were taken to the hospital. Were they attacked? BUTLER: No. They weren' ; t attacked. HUNTLEY: But Shuttlesworth was taken to the hospital? BUTLER: Right. And, then, they took the children to the hospital, too. HUNTLEY: I see. Did they take them there to be checked over or for what reason? BUTLER: I think they took them to be checked over but they didn' ; t harm the kids at all. HUNTLEY: In looking at how that develop, did that sort of solidify your participation in the Movement? Were you sold on being a participant in the Movement? Because I know now, as a result of your name appearing In the paper, you were terminated from your job, is that correct? BUTLER:That' ; s correct. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me how that came about? What happened? BUTLER: What happened. When they saw it in the paper they -- I am sure when they saw it in the paper because they told me right after, not the same day, but a day or two later, then they told me they didn' ; t need me anymore. But they didn' ; t say why. HUNTLEY: They didn' ; t give you any reason? BUTLER:Well, I was kind of like a part-time employee anyway and so they didn' ; t tell me why. But I knew what it was. HUNTLEY: So you then, being terminated and you had a child to raise, what kind of strain did that put on you and your family? BUTLER: Well, it wasn' ; t really a strain because they were getting a check. Their father was dead and they gave them a check until they got 18 years old. HUNTLEY: So it really didn' ; t strain your family economically? BUTLER:Not really. HUNTLEY: Well what happened after that? Did you find another job? BUTLER:After that, I found a job at a clothing store and I worked there awhile until my pastor, Rev. Herman Stone decided to open a kindergarten in our church so they asked me would I be director of the kindergarten. And so I stopped working where I was working and went on and started working at the church. It was a built thing because we didn' ; t have but a few children so we weren' ; t making much money. So, what we did, what they did, they said, " ; Whatever we make, we' ; ll divide it with you." ; And so this is how it got started. So the kindergarten finally grew and grew after we moved to the southside and then we moved to Westend and it grew up until I was making a real good salary when I retired. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of? BUTLER: New Hope Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: Was New Hope one of the churches where the mass meetings would be held? BUTLER: Yes. It was held at New Hope, New Pilgrim, Groveland and Rev. Phiffer' ; s church, I don' ; t remember the name of his church. All churches would not participate, but New Hope, New Pilgrim, I remember those. HUNTLEY: So I am assuming you attended the mass meetings on a regular basis? BUTLER: I attended each Monday night. HUNTLEY: How would you describe the typical mass meeting? What was it like? BUTLER: Well, it was kind of exciting because this was something new going on in Birmingham. It was really exciting to be there and not be afraid. We were not afraid. So they would have more policemen there every Monday night. And, you would think that they would be guarding -- I really don' ; t know what they were there for. HUNTLEY: But they were there in the meeting? BUTLER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were they taking notes of what was going on in the meeting? BUTLER: Well, I imagine they did, but I don' ; t remember. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of the demonstrations? I know there were bus demonstrations where they actually sat on the busses. Then they went and sat in at Loveman' ; s, Newberry' ; s and places like that. BUTLER: No. I didn' ; t participate in any of the sit-ins. HUNTLEY: You were a member of the Membership Committee? BUTLER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. How did that work? BUTLER: You would ask people to join the Christian Movement and I think it was by paying $1.00 to be a member. The churches would always be packed. HUNTLEY: So that' ; s where most of your memberships would come from, the various churches? BUTLER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate? BUTLER: No. My mother and aunt went to the meetings, but they didn' ; t participate. They participated in marching from New Pilgrim down to the city jail, my mother did. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of those? BUTLER: No. I didn' ; t participate in that. HUNTLEY: You were usually working at the time? Or why was it you did not participate in the demonstrations? BUTLER: Well, after I started the day care I had to be there all day. So I didn' ; t go to any of the marches or demonstrations. HUNTLEY: Let me back up just a bit. I know after your son, along with Shuttlesworth' ; s children and Rev. Phiffer' ; s children, they attempted to integrate Phillips High School, and you were not successful in that, what did you do? BUTLER: After they went there, we knew when they went there they were not going to be enrolled anyway. So we kept them out until after then, then they went on to their regular schools. HUNTLEY: Did you file a suit? BUTLER: The Movement filed a suit but I didn' ; t file any particular suit. HUNTLEY: But your names appeared in the paper as being participants in that particular effort to desegregate the schools? BUTLER: Right. HUNTLEY: How many children did you have? BUTLER: At the time I had two. But I have four now. HUNTLEY: Was that your oldest son? BUTLER: The oldest son, the one that participated, then I have another one that' ; s two years younger than him. HUNTLEY: Did he participate at all? BUTLER: He didn' ; t participate. I let Walter participate because he was ready to go in high school at the time. HUNTLEY: So where did he eventually go to high school? BUTLER: He went to Ullman High School. He graduated there. HUNTLEY: You say you were a member of New Hope? That means that your church was actively involved in the Movement? BUTLER: That' ; s right. My church was active. My pastor was Rev. Hunter Stone. HUNTLEY: He was very active? BUTLER: In the Movement. HUNTLEY: People basically supported his efforts? BUTLER: Yes. Whatever the pastor did we supported. HUNTLEY: If I were to ask you what was your most vivid memory of the Movement days, what would you say? What do you remember most about the activities of the Civil Rights Movement that you were involved? BUTLER: What I remember mostly is about trying to integrate the schools. HUNTLEY: Why does that stand out so much in your mind? BUTLER: It stands out because my son was involved. HUNTLEY: So that would make it stand out then. That brings it very close to home. What benefits did you, your family and community realize as a result of the Movement? BUTLER: What benefits? HUNTLEY: Yes. BUTLER: I think some of the benefits are what we have now. You know they had the sit-ins at the lunch counters. We used to go downtown and at Newberrys we couldn' ; t go up to the counter and order something. You had to stand at the end where the big jug was located. That was the only way you could be waited on. You had to go to the back doors and all that. And I think about the Christian Movement being organized and we worked in it that this brought about a change. HUNTLEY: And of course, you would then suggest that the Movement, your assessment of the Movement would be one of success rather than failure? BUTLER: Right. I think it was. HUNTLEY: Because those things did change. If there is anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with during this conversation. I know that you were quite active. You had participated in all of the Monday night meetings. You knew many of the people. How would you sort of characterize that particular period of time in terms of the stagnation of Birmingham in race relations and then in terms of the change? How would you characterize it? Would it be an era that you would like to see renewed? Would it be something that you would not want to see happen again? How would you look at that period? BUTLER: I wouldn' ; t like to see it renewed or happen again because we went through a lot of changes. Back then after we signed for the children to go to Phillips High School, then there was some of the Movement people that was guards that had to watch our houses at night. They would stay out there all night long, watching to see that nothing happened to us and I wouldn' ; t like to see that go back through that again. HUNTLEY: Your family was threatened? BUTLER: Yes. We had threatening telephone calls and stuff like that. HUNTLEY: How did that affect you and your children at the time? BUTLER: Well, really I was young and it didn' ; t bother me too much, because I wasn' ; t afraid. And the children, I don' ; t think they were afraid. HUNTLEY: At that time, you were living in what community? BUTLER: Avondale. HUNTLEY: In Avondale at the time as well. Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with? BUTLER: No. I can' ; t think of nothing else. HUNTLEY: You said you had an article of the -- BUTLER: Yes. The newspaper clip of -- it' ; s a newspaper where it started on the front sheet of this where they took them to the hospital. It started on the front page and I have the second page. I don' ; t know what happened to the front page. But anyway it has a picture of Rev. Shuttlesworth and my son, Avery and Nathaniel Lee and the Shuttlesworth girls in this picture that they made while they were at the hospital. I think they were sitting on a bench at the hospital. HUNTLEY: Do you have any other items related to the Movement or the development of Birmingham that you would like to donate to the institute? If so, you can always just get in touch with either myself or the office. BUTLER: I would like to donate the newspaper because it does have some information in it. But I really came out and forgot to bring it with me. Because I made some copies of it. HUNTLEY: Okay. We will be in touch with you about that. Thank you very much for taking your time. BUTLER: Thank you. HUNTLEY: We will definitely want to talk with you at some later date and make copies of these and let you look over them and we would just be in touch with you. Thank you. BUTLER: Thank you very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AMButler1995.xml AMButler1995.xml
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Annie Marie Butler
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Annie Marie Butler discusses losing her job as a result of being involved with the Movement. Her son attempted to integrate Phillips High School with Rev. Shuttlesworth and his family.
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19950607B
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011
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1995-06-07
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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Charles Nice
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Alabama State Legislature
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5.4 March 23, 1995 Judge Charles Nice 19950323N 0:37:49 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Pupil Placement Law Alabama State Legislature Charles Nice Horace Huntley Video 1:|10(4)|24(5)|41(13)|65(8)|87(3)|105(1)|119(11)|135(11)|165(2)|186(5)|206(16)|232(13)|250(10)|262(10)|276(14)|291(11)|310(7)|326(12)|350(2)|377(13)|392(13)|411(4)|422(13)|438(6)|455(3)|471(3)|488(5)|507(16)|528(8)|543(2)|560(12)|573(5)|588(9)|605(8)|625(1)|643(7)|662(2) 0 https://youtu.be/rWM9sakhyPM YouTube video English 30 Introduction of Interview Right. I've been reading that. Let me just start, though, with just a statement. This is an interview for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute done by Dr. Horace Huntley. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 60 Background and Educational Journey We really appreciate it because we know the role that you've played and it's been a rather significant role and one really that has not gotten the credit that it's due. Judge Nice discusses segregation in public schools in Alabama and where he went to college. African Americans--Segregation ; US Steel Birmingham (Ala.) ; North Carolina 271 Meeting Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt The President, and they had nothing like the students they have today. Judge Nice recalls how he met Eleanor Roosevelt and how he listened to Franklin Roosevelt speak at the University of North Carolina. Greensboro (N.C.) ; Roosevelt, Eleanor, 1884-1962 North Carolina ; Roosevelt, Franklin D. (Franklin Delano), 1882-1945 482 Becoming Involved in Politics So, after you finished at North Carolina, what did you do? Judge Nice discusses how he dropped out of law school and became involved in local politics in Birmingham. University of Alabama ; Yale Law School ; YMCA of the USA Birmingham (Ala.) ; Young Mens Business Club 606 Running for State Legislature Yes. So, you became, then, rather politically active in the community and then you decided that you wanted to run for the state legislature? Judge Nice recalls how he ran unopposed for state legislature and attended all of the meetings. Alabama State Legislature ; Quenton Bowers Birmingham (Ala.) ; Racial integration 805 Voting on Alabama's Opposition to Integration in the Schools The White people. That really is a commentary, then, on your public life as far as representing Jefferson County. Judge Nice recalls how he was the only one to vote against Alabama's bills to keep the public schools segregated. Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka ; Pupil Placement Law Birmingham (Ala.) ; State legislature 1058 Repercussions Faced for Nonunanimous Votes Yes. What, then, after this race, after these votes that you are taking, what kind of repercussions did you...? Judge Nice recalls how he did not face many repercussions for his votes and discusses how he practiced private law after he got out of the state legislature. Birmingham News ; Fultondale (Ala.) ; Private law Birmingham (Ala.) 1154 Losing His Position in the State Legislature There are two things I want to say. Can I interject at this time? Judge Nice discusses how he lost his state legislature position to Sandra Ross and his stance on capital punishment. Capital punishment ; Charles Merriweather ; Young Mens Business Club Birmingham (Ala.) ; Ross, Sandra 1565 Personal Relationship with Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth Your involvement... During this time, you were obviously one of the civic leaders that had tried to change the... really the landscape of Birmingham's race relationships. Judge Nice tells how he knew Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth and how Fred would support his elections. Civil rights movement ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 1626 Memories of the 1963 Demonstrations What do you remember about the April and May of 1963 during demonstrations that were taking place here in the area now that we are calling the Civil Rights District--the marches, the police? Judge Nice recalls seeing the demonstrations and how he had to send reports to Washington on what was going on in Birmingham. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Police brutality--United States Birmingham (Ala.) ; Washington, D.C. 1717 His Church's Stance on the Civil Rights Activities Was your church...? During this time, what was the stance of the church on civil rights activities that were taking place? Judge Nice discusses how the church did not take an active stance in the civil rights movement. Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Presbytery of Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1785 Changing Attitudes of Race Relations What role would you say Birmingham has played in changing the status quo of race relations in this country? Judge Nice discusses how the people active in the civil rights movement helped improve race relations in the South. Civil rights movement ; Morgan, Chuck Birmingham (Ala.) ; Young Mens Business Club 1945 His Advice to the Leaders of Birmingham If you could turn the clock back and would become a chief advisor to the powers that were in Birmingham at the time, how would you advise them, as the Movement progressed? Judge Nice states the advice he would give to the leaders of Birmingham encouraging them to enact more positive change. Progressive ideas ; State legislature Birmingham (Ala.) 2102 Big Law Firms and Their Influence on Bills But one thing I do want to tell you, the whole time in the legislature, that four years, I could go in... to where the votes were taking place... Judge Nice recalls how the big law firms in Alabama greatly influenced the bills geared towards continuing segregation. Boutwell, Albert Burton, 1904-1978 ; Cabaniss and Johnson Birmingham (Ala.) ; Blacks--Segregation 2215 Conclusion of Interview Well, Judge Nice, I want to thank you again for coming out today, taking the time and sitting and giving us this information. Interview is concluded. Oral History Judge Charles Nice discusses his career and his efforts to end segregation in the Alabama State Legislature. He went on to work with Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth to make local change. NICE: My son made a comment to me the other day. You know, this new book that' ; s come out on Alabama History had me listed in there. HUNTLEY: Right. I' ; ve been reading that. Let me just start, though, with just a statement. This is an interview for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute done by Dr. Horace Huntley. I am sitting with Judge Charles Nice. Today is March 23, 1995. We are at Miles College and I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule to come out and talk with us today. NICE: Well, Dr. Huntley, I appreciate you inviting me. HUNTLEY: We really appreciate it because we know the role that you' ; ve played and it' ; s been a rather significant role and one really that has not gotten the credit that it' ; s due. But before we start to talk about your involvement, I would just like to get a little background information. Tell me a little about your...first, your parents. Where were you from? Where were you born? NICE: I was from Birmingham. I was born in Birmingham. My father was born in Tennessee, East Tennessee. His father had a little hardware store and he went to the...went to college two years at the University of Pennsylvania, I mean, the University of Tennessee and then went to the University of Pennsylvania to med school. And there, he met my mother who lived in. . . there in Philadelphia. So he came to Birmingham and he started off as a doctor for one of the mines and then moved into Birmingham and became. . . and practiced medicine here for a number of years. HUNTLEY: So, did he work for TCI or US Steel prior to.... NICE: I think he worked one of those was connected. I don' ; t think it was TCI but it was maybe the other one, but he only stayed out there in the mines two or three years. I mean in that area where he was a doctor for all conditions and everything. and delivering babies and everything. Then he moved in Birmingham near Five Points and then we moved up to where I was born on Iroquois Street. It' ; s 29th Street, I think it is, now. HUNTLEY: 29th Street, yes sir. You were born in December. I believe it was the same day as I was born, just a few years earlier than I. NICE: A lot of years before you. HUNTLEY: Yes, but then you went on to school at Lakeview Elementary School. Tell me a little about what you remember about your days at Lakeview. NICE: Well, Lakeview had very fine teachers. Of course, everybody was White then and very fine teachers there and then went there for a whole eight years and then I went from there to Ramsay High School. HUNTLEY: And, you graduated from Ramsay High School. NICE: Ramsay High School. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little bit about Ramsay. Ramsay, of course, now is an integrated high school. At the time that you were in it, of course, it was a segregated high school. Were there any relations. . . relationships between. . . kids at Ramsay High and any of the other black schools at the time that you were there? NICE: No. HUNTLEY: None whatsoever. NICE: You know, I wasn' ; t even aware practically that there was a White/Black school system. It was just the way it was and nobody came and talked to us about it. You didn' ; t hear about it in church. HUNTLEY: It was just one of those things that you didn' ; t discuss. NICE: Well, I guess so. I don' ; t even remember the issue, but it was an issue. HUNTLEY: Yes. What did you do after high school? NICE: Then, I went to the University of North Carolina. And, at the University of North Carolina, I had probably the greatest, teacher...well the one that was head of the...what do you call them? HUNTLEY: The Chair of the department or the mentor, probably. NICE: Yeah, the mentor, Dr. Frank Graham. He was the principal, I mean the head of the whole school. . . HUNTLEY: The President of the school? NICE: The President, and they had nothing like the students they have today. But, what a great fellow he was. One day I was at. . . one evening I got word to come to see him or call him, I forget which. But anyway, I made contact with him and he. . . he said. . . and I knew Mrs. Roosevelt had been there. She had been there speaking. This was about 1936 or something like that. And, she was there speaking that night and he said, would you drive her over to. . . over to her train over in Greensboro, which was about fifty miles away. Well, I had been to Greensboro once, but I had never driven over there on the road. There was no freeway like today. He said, " ; Take my car, and drive her over there." ; So, I drove Mrs. Roosevelt. . . HUNTLEY: This is Eleanor Roosevelt. NICE: Eleanor Roosevelt, and her assistant, the lady, Miss Thompson I think it was, that went with her as her secretary. We drove over there. I got on the wrong road at one time. This was about eight o' ; clock--eight or nine o' ; clock at night. But, what a wonderful lady. Of course, Franklin Roosevelt was my favorite always. Lincoln and then Franklin Roosevelt. HUNTLEY: Did you ever get a chance to meet the President? NICE: I never met him. He came to school my first year there and on our birthday and I was the first person. I was in there in the audience. . . in the new gymnasium, where they play basketball. I was there five hours ahead of time to be sure I got a seat right up near the front and I was there right in front of him and saw how...what a terrible hardship it was for him to stand up. And, these men helped him on up beside. . . the little, the things that were made for him to walk up. HUNTLEY: A little incline. NICE: Yes, a little incline. And, then, as he got up and down to the seat. . . once or twice, you could see how hard it was...I was just amazed. I said, ' ; I never realized that before.' ; I had never seen anything like that, how hard it was for him to stand up and hear him talk that day. But, you see, he had a lot to do with my growing on. . . race relations. Especially, Frank Graham had a lot to do. And my mother and father, without knowing it, because they weren' ; t. . . they didn' ; t preach on the subject, but my mother taught me always. . .She read to me from five, six, and seven years old. She read to me all the time. That' ; s why I love history so much. She always told me that Blacks were mistreated, the Indians were mistreated, and she' ; d say things like that and that would get my mind to thinking right then, ' ; What could be done about that?' ; HUNTLEY: Why did you not go to the University of Alabama? NICE: My father said that he' ; d like me to get out of the state. He thought I would play too much, come home every weekend. Well, anyway, one day in the summer of 1938 before I went to school, before I selected my school, I said. . . My brother-in-law. . . At Christmas, the family was all there. He said, ' ; Where you going?' ; I said, ' ; I think I' ; ll go to the University of North Carolina.' ; And he said, ' ; Oh, that' ; s Franklin Roosevelt' ; s school.' ; Well, from that moment, I had decided where I was going---to the University of North Carolina. I don' ; t know why he said that. I think there were a lot of New Dealers down there at the school, teachers and all, who were going there for graduate courses and he had read that. HUNTLEY: What was your major? NICE: History. HUNTLEY: You' ; re a history major. NICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, after you finished at North Carolina, what do you do? NICE: I was rejected at the Army and waited around for two or three years and went to Yale to law school. Well, my father had gotten sick and was having heart trouble and it was hard on him to pay all the money and for one reason or another I decided to leave. I' ; d passed everything in my first year, all my courses, but I changed and went to Alabama and I knew that politics was my love. I wanted to be in politics. HUNTLEY: Your father was active in the YMBC, the Young Men' ; s Business .... NICE: No, I don' ; t think so. HUNTLEY: He wasn' ; t, but you were? NICE: I was in the YMCA because I went there for years to work out after I graduated from college. HUNTLEY: So, you, then, became rather active in the community when you returned to Birmingham? NICE: Yes, and I was in some local political things. I was in the Young Mens Business Club and those things. I was appointed by one of our men, who at that time, he was head of the city to be in charge of that race, you know, when they were trying to get everything into the city? Well, I was in charge of the outlying communities--Cooper Green. He appointed me Chairman of the outlying communities to get them to join into Birmingham. Well, my group passed-- in other words, the outlying were voted in by the people who lived there. ' ; We want to come in,' ; they said, so they did come in. So, I was in charge of that group. Cooper Green did me a favor and appointed me to that position. HUNTLEY: Well, we should have appointed you to about thirty five others and maybe we would have had a metropolitan government by now. NICE: Wasn' ; t that Birmingham vote--? Didn' ; t that just fail by one vote of Homewood coming in? HUNTLEY: Right, it actually passed initially and then they redid the election or something and it failed. NICE: Well, I was in.going to all those meetings at night. HUNTLEY: Yeah, I talked with Chuck Morgan about that and he told me the very same thing. NICE: What a fine guy. HUNTLEY: Yes. So, you became, then, rather politically active in the community and then you decided that you wanted to run for the state legislature? NICE: Yes, and I had become a law clerk to Frank. . . to Judge Lynn and I was with him for three years. I was waiting for the time for the legislature to run again and I left him on the end of February-- No, it was the last day of 19. . . when was it that I ran for the legislature? I don' ; t have it. HUNTLEY: [19]54, I believe. NICE: ' ; 54 and I ran for legislature. I didn' ; t accept a cent of money that first race, but for three months, of course, I was living at home. I could afford to do it, and I was single. For three months, I walked this county just campaigning and I won that race. And that' ; s the time when they picked just seven. You didn' ; t run for an individual seat, you just--They just-- The top seven were the elected ones. HUNTLEY: That' ; s interesting. NICE: And, we had three or four millionaires in that group. HUNTLEY: Were you one of those millionaires? NICE: (laughing) No, no. We had three or four. Hugh Kaul was one. There were two or three others. HUNTLEY: I noticed that during your time in the legislature you never missed a meeting. You had perfect attendance. NICE: I enjoyed every minute of it and you get to wondering... Sometimes you' ; d get there and you' ; d vote and they' ; d have a vote and you' ; d vote to adjourn immediately. It wasn' ; t that you wanted to get home, but it was simply the fact that you were trying to keep some vote from being brought up. HUNTLEY: Right. NICE: If you thought they could beat it that day and you didn' ; t want that to prevail and you wanted to wait until you had that chance to get in some of your people, who would vote your way, on your side... HUNTLEY: Well, you actually ran for the one term and afterwards you didn' ; t run for that next term...not a consecutive term. NICE: No, I just thought that with the adverse publicity and all that I wouldn' ; t have a chance. I think by hindsight it might have been good, but they would have organized against me like they did in the subsequent races. HUNTLEY: Because you did-- In ' ; 62, you decided to try it again and you did have opposition. Let me just share a couple of . . . NICE: They changed the system somewhat. Then you had opponents in the next few races. HUNTLEY: Right, your opponent was Quenton Bowers for Place 15 and this is some of the publicity that was put out in relationship to the race. Bowers said that, ' ; All elected members of our Jefferson County' ; s delegation are staunch supporters of the segregation.' ; And this is in 1962. ' ; So are other Alabama legislators.' ; Then, it goes on to say, ' ; Quenton Bowers will stand by their side in upholding our way of life. His opponent, Mr. Charles Nice, cast the only vote in the House against the Boutwell Public School Placement Law to protect our schools against race mixing. Mr. Nice also cast the only vote in the House against our legislature' ; s resolution condemning the U.S. Supreme Court integration decision. Standing alone in our legislature for integration in Alabama, can Mr. Nice effectively represent the people of Jefferson County?' ; NICE: That is, ' ; the White people.' ; HUNTLEY: The White people. That really is a commentary, then, on your public life as far as representing Jefferson County. You. . . On May 17, 1957, a resolution pledging Alabama' ; s opposition and resistance to the U.S. Supreme Court' ; s decision, Brown v. Board, actually passed by a vote of 86 to one. You were that one. Tell me about that. Why would you vote against everyone else in the state legislature? NICE: Well, they were wrong, and I knew they were wrong and I looked upon that opportunity as a great opportunity to vote against it. They would. . . It would end the public-school system if it was integrated in any way, and I wasn' ; t about to vote otherwise. So I looked upon it as a great opportunity. HUNTLEY: What was the relationship, then, with other members after you would not make this a unanimous vote? NICE: Well, you know the big corporations would go by--would come by in the morning and invite various legislators out for lunch--the power company and all the other utility companies--and they would just come by me and walk on past. And, so, usually I was eating alone, although there was Pat Vacca there who was a friend and he ate with me a lot, or I' ; d go out and see somebody in town that I knew who was a friend of mine. HUNTLEY: You were sort of isolated then? NICE: I was isolated. And then, I don' ; t know, but it didn' ; t always stand up. Some days one of them would ask me out. He wouldn' ; t have any lunch plans. I don' ; t recall the issues exactly. HUNTLEY: Here' ; s another one on August 13, 1957: ' ; The House of Representatives in another move to protect the schools of Alabama against U. S. Supreme Court' ; s integration decision, passed by a vote of 91 to one the Boutwell Public School Pupil Placement Law. Mr. Charles Nice, again, was the only member of the House who voted against this Pupil Placement Law, a measure to uphold and safeguard Alabama' ; s school segregation policy.' ; You again vote against all of your fellow legislators. Why? NICE: Because I knew I was right. (begins to get emotional) Excuse me, since I' ; ve had that stroke, I get a little sentimental. You' ; ll have to excuse me and cut that off if my voice cracks too much. HUNTLEY: Yes. But that took courage. NICE: Well, look what an opportunity I had. My son, when this article came out. . . What is the book that was written on Alabama history, you know by Wayne...? HUNTLEY: Wayne Flynt, yes. NICE: My son, who is about thirty, said to me one night, he said, ' ; Dad' ; --and he mentioned the fellow' ; s name, but I forget who it was--' ; said to me,' ; and, incidentally, it' ; s the only time I think I' ; ve ever heard anybody refer to that book-- He said, ' ; This friend said to me, where did your dad get such courage? And, I just had to tell him, that didn' ; t take courage, he couldn' ; t have done otherwise.' ; That' ; s what he said. And, that' ; s true. HUNTLEY: So you just felt that this was. . . You were duty bound. NICE: Oh, yeah. It was-- I mean, it was an idea whose time had come and passed several hundred years. . . whose time had come and I wasn' ; t going to let it get by. I knew, basically, one, that it was right regardless of the other--of how many voted with me or with nobody voting. I knew it was a time that had come and I was going to be on the right side. (voice cracks) Excuse my voice cracking up. It wouldn' ; t have done like this a year ago. HUNTLEY: Yes. What, then, after this race, after these votes that you are taking, what kind of repercussions did you? NICE: Well, it really wasn' ; t as bad as you' ; d expect. I mean, I got home and people didn' ; t come up to me and say, ' ; What about your vote.?' ; I think I had a few people in downtown who mentioned it to me that they didn' ; t like it or something, but it wasn' ; t very much. Really, the papers didn' ; t give this much play. I' ; m surprised, but the [Birmingham]News. . . and I would have been so proud for them to say something. It seems like every time I was proud of something the News wouldn' ; t mention it. HUNTLEY: They wouldn' ; t publish that? NICE: They wouldn' ; t publish it if I was proud of it, and I was proud of this. HUNTLEY: Well, after that, was it directly after that that you, then, went out to Fultondale, I believe? Were you a judge in Fultondale? NICE: Yes, I was a judge in Fultondale. I' ; d go out there one day a week for a number of years. HUNTLEY: And you were in private [law] practice? NICE: I was in private practice. I may have done other things at the time. I may have gone out there when I was with Judge. . . No, I didn' ; t. I think I was just in private practice. HUNTLEY: Tell me. This is really the same time, approximately the same time, that the Movement is sort of escalating in Birmingham and, of course, in 1960 we have the sit-ins around the South. In ' ; 61 the Freedom Riders would visit Birmingham. . . NICE: There two things I want to say. Can I interject at this time? HUNTLEY: Sure, absolutely. NICE: A lot of times, when my friends-- What' ; s the fellow' ; s name who is Mayor of Birmingham right then? HUNTLEY: Boutwell. NICE: Right after Boutwell, the White fellow that was. . . HUNTLEY: Art Haynes? NICE: Before Art Haynes. This was a liberal that still represents the city as a lawyer. HUNTLEY: Oh, Vann--David Vann. NICE: David Vann. HUNTLEY: Okay. NICE: A lot of times they were involved in things and I wanted to join them, but I kept--played a low key because I wanted to go back to the legislature. I wanted to run for a judgeship and I didn' ; t know when that would. . . might come. And, so, I was going to stay a little quiet. So, a lot of those things I helped David some on-- When they changed the laws of the city, I did help some from the Young Men' ; s Business Club. Now, the other thing I want to mention about. . . and this has never come out and I don' ; t why. When they condemned the United States Supreme Court, the legislature did-- I cast the only vote, I think we read that. . . I cast the only vote against that, condemning--so I--They condemned the Supreme Court of the United States and that was right when the other votes were taken. And yet, those...those actions, that and the others must have been taken out of the books and destroyed, because there' ; s no record of it that I know of. Now, whether if somebody could find it in the newspapers in Montgomery or some other place, I don' ; t know. HUNTLEY: It' ; s probably. . . it' ; s probably listed. We' ; ll just have to find it. But it does say here that ' ; On August 28, 1962, Mr. Charles Nice again swept all of the Negro boxes.' ; For example, in Precinct 9. . . NICE: And the reason the Birmingham News put that in is ' ; cause they knew it' ; d hurt me in Mountain Brook and all the White sections and they wanted to do all the damage. So whereas I was proud of that, it would keep me from getting the White vote, and I had to have the White vote also. HUNTLEY: In Legion Field you received 553 votes to 31 votes for your opponent, so in each of the Black boxes you won, but you could not do the same in the White boxes? NICE: Yes, and you know. . . I never understood-- When I became a judge and ran and in my last race Sandra Ross defeated me and I' ; ve always. . . and the Mayor, the present Mayor-- HUNTLEY: Arrington? NICE: Arrington. He told her-- He gave her the freedom to get into the race. I mean, he told her to come on, get in the race and he would support her against me. He had been my friend. He told me he liked my votes against segr. . . against capital punishment. I had supported him in his race. I' ; d contributed some money. I' ; d been with, what' ; s his name that was my good friend. . . I' ; ll get it right here, just a second. . . but was a good friend of his too. Yeah, I' ; ve got it right here. Charles Merriweather was my good friend and there the Mayor got Sandra Ross in the race, told her he' ; d give the Black support to her, and she got in five minutes before the election boxes were closed. She had told me that she wasn' ; t going to run against me. She was in the office with my assistant, whatever they call them. So, she ran and defeated me and as soon as she got in the race, as Charles Merriweather told me, he said, ' ; You can' ; t win now.' ; And others told me that, because you' ; re going to lose the Black vote. I was hoping that I could get the Black vote with about 60 and I felt sure I' ; d get 60-70 percent of the Black vote and just may be 40 percent of the White vote. I wasn' ; t going get the majority. I knew that, but I had to have the overwhelming Black vote and I would have had another term. And here, on all my cases, when I was in the. . . As a judge, when I was acting as a judge, every single time the jury gave death, I commuted it to life imprisonment without parole. That' ; s the only alternative I had. I was against capital punishment. HUNTLEY: You were opposed to capital punishment. NICE: I was opposed to capital punishment. I commuted every single one of them and we had two or three very bad ones, so I thought Arrington would be with me. And when I became the Judge of the Family Court, every time a White was tried for a case. . . I mean a Black was tried for a case in which he could be given the electric chair, White or Black, if they were a minor, and that' ; s all that was tried out there, I would not let that child be tried as an adult. If they were tried as an adult, White or Black, they could be sent to the electric chair, and I knew that Blacks had a good chance of going to the electric chair on a capital case where the. . . kids are not charged with that. So, I would try it myself. Then, if I found them guilty, I would send them off for a year. I' ; d put on there three years, but they. . . if the courts, the Superior Courts. . . they could pay no attention to that. Because, all the law required was about a year and the public was furious. The guy commits somebody and then he' ; d get let off in a year, but I was not going to let that fellow be tried by an adult court because if he was given the electric chair, that is a sentence. It might be granted, and I didn' ; t believe in that. HUNTLEY: Why do you think the Mayor opposed you or supported your opponent? NICE: I don' ; t know. I mean, it was politics and he was able to work out a deal. Some business men had told me they were going to defeat me because they were tired of this crime and I know the people were concerned about it, but. . . capital punishment is not going to end crime. And I' ; d do the same thing today and I think they just went to the Mayor and worked out some deal with him and so he supported Sandra Ross. Sandra Ross had not been in the legislature. She' ; s a fine person, but she had never had the opportunities I had and she had never commuted cases of Blacks, like I had and, and. . . So I' ; ll never know the answer to that--why he turned against me. I thought he was my ally. He had said to me that he. . . he liked my stand on capital punishment and Merriweather, who was working with me, was his good friend and I' ; d been to fund raising meetings with Merriweather for him, so I don' ; t know what the grounds for that were and I' ; d like to know. Merriweather said, ' ; Don' ; t ever speak. . . don' ; t ever say anything to him about it,' ; and I didn' ; t. I tried to, but I couldn' ; t. HUNTLEY: Your involvement-- During this time, you were obviously one of the civic leaders that had tried to change the--really the landscape of Birmingham' ; s race relationships. Did you have any involvement with any of the Civil Rights leaders in Birmingham in the early ' ; 60s? NICE: I did not. I would like to have had. You mean the out of state leaders? HUNTLEY: In state. NICE: In state. Well, I mean, the people around Birmingham I knew and I was probably in luncheons with them. HUNTLEY: What about Fred Shuttlesworth? Did you know Fred in those early days? NICE: I wouldn' ; t say in the early days I did, but I did know him ten or fifteen years ago and I' ; d go out to see him to get his support for my elections and things like that. And, I would see him when he would come down here. . . at some of the civil rights meetings. . . when he' ; d come down-- Where is he? HUNTLEY: He' ; s in Cincinnati. NICE: Cincinnati? HUNTLEY: Right. NICE: When he' ; d come home, I would see him. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the April and May of 1963 during the demonstrations that were taking place here in the area now that we are calling the Civil Rights District--the marches, the police? NICE: I went to some of those. For two or three years I was with the U.S. Attorney' ; s Office and I had-- One of my jobs was to go down, stand on the street there and keep an eye. . . just keep my eyes open to what was going on and report back to Washington in case they needed to send any support down here to stop it and all. And there was one person that was in charge of that. When he left then I did it for a while, so I did see some of the things. I didn' ; t see the bad days, but I did see some and I would call Washington and tell them what I' ; d seen. HUNTLEY: You' ; d give a report to Washington about what was taking place in the streets of Birmingham. NICE: I was really the assistant of the one who did that, but I did do it on some occasions. I was to let them know how bad it was getting and then about that time, it was the election and I guess it was Nixon that won and I was out of office. HUNTLEY: What church were you attending at that time? NICE: I was raised as a Presbyterian [on the] Southside there. HUNTLEY: Was your church--? During this time, what was the stance of the church on civil rights activities that were taking place? NICE: I don' ; t remember any stance. I don' ; t think they did anything. They just preached the regular things, but I mean, that wasn' ; t considered one of the things, and its always. . . I' ; ve always wondered why the churches didn' ; t take a more active stance. We used to-- You see, ministers, more than anybody else, can hardly stand to take a position that' ; s contrary to their congregation. If it' ; s in any way radical or out of line then they are going to be removed. It' ; s unfortunate. I' ; ve always wondered, ' ; Why don' ; t they take a stand? Why don' ; t they say something about this?' ; It' ; s simply that they won' ; t be there if they do. HUNTLEY: So, they were basically following their congregation rather than leading the congregation. NICE: That' ; s right, absolutely. And you had some good men, but they just weren' ; t going to do that and they would say, ' ; Well, I have to stay away from it so I can keep my job.' ; I mean, that' ; s what they were thinking to themselves, I imagine. HUNTLEY: What role would you say Birmingham has played in changing the status quo of race relations in this country? NICE: Very little. And your leading businessmen, who could have taken it with impunity, probably, didn' ; t do anything. Yet they got some credit for some things I thought were little or nothing, what they did at the end when the real changes were made. HUNTLEY: Do you think that efforts of civil rights activists in Birmingham had an impact on the changing of the status quo in the South? NICE: Absolutely. It wouldn' ; t have occurred if it didn' ; t. HUNTLEY: Did you agree with what was going on at the time that the demonstrations were going on? The sit-ins, the. . . NICE: I knew that if they didn' ; t do those things, things wouldn' ; t be changed. HUNTLEY: Were there discussions among your contemporaries about what was going on? NICE: Well, the fellows my age, Chuck Morgan and others, were generally favorable. It was just understood that. . . I think that we recognized they were right, but I don' ; t recall there was much being said. It was just understood they were right and we weren' ; t critical, but we were watching everything. HUNTLEY: Chuck Morgan, of course, took some active-- He took an active role and, in fact, he had to leave Birmingham as a result of his role that he took. NICE: To have full years of himself and his abilities and all, he left. But, I don' ; t know. He could have stayed here. He would have had a tough time getting elected to anything but I was there at the meeting at the Young Men' ; s Business Club the day he spoke after the church was bombed and the two girls killed. I was there when he spoke out that day and I--and, really, most of the fellows in the Young Men' ; s Business Club were fairly liberal and I was president of that and I got speakers there. HUNTLEY: Yes, because that was one of the areas that you were quite actively involved in, the Young Men' ; s Business Club. NICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: If you could turn the clock back and would become a chief advisor to the powers that were in Birmingham at the time, how would you advise them, as the Movement progressed? NICE: I would do what I could to slowly push them a little faster. There' ; s only so much you can do. You' ; ll be completely ineffective if you go too far, but everything they did that was a little liberal, if you could say, ' ; That' ; s the right thing. That' ; s good,' ; and encourage them on that and encourage them a little more, a little more, a little more. . . But, there' ; s only so much you can do with people to get them to move. HUNTLEY: One of your friends said that you were ' ; a man ahead of his times.' ; Do you think if you had come along a little bit later, when things had changed, that you would have been able to spend more time in the legislature and possibly do more for. . .? NICE: I would have liked to. I mean, I wanted a political career and I was stopped right there. HUNTLEY: Do you regret what you did? NICE: No. No, because I couldn' ; t have lived with myself if I had voted other than the way I did on that occasion. I knew I was right and I just don' ; t . . . what time it is. How would I have? What if I had said that morning, ' ; Well, just hold off. Just don' ; t vote on this, because not only does that represent the vote, but there were several that weren' ; t there. Ten or twelve of fifteen weren' ; t there. They just didn' ; t show up that day. They knew the vote was going to take place and people urged me, ' ; Just don' ; t go that day. Stay out of it.' ; And I could have been elected again, but I couldn' ; t have lived with myself. I mean I felt so strongly-- HUNTLEY: Well, I sure. . . NICE: I' ; m not trying to be noble about it, but I mean that' ; s just a fact. HUNTLEY: Those are facts that I think will have to come out and will really be highlighted. And, that' ; s what we are attempting to do, really--to get information from individuals like yourself who had a role to play and played that role well. What we want to do is to have that information in the archives at the Civil Rights Institute so that scholars can come in and take a look at it. NICE: I wish they could have seen me when I wasn' ; t. . . when I hadn' ; t had this stroke and I was a stronger person and I could think better--could express myself better. HUNTLEY: Sure. NICE: But one thing I do want to tell you, the whole time in the legislature, that four years, I could go in. . . to where the votes were taking place. . . the House and there were some of the big law firms of Alabama--Cabaniss and Johnson were the main ones. They had their leaders, their people down there. They would go out to the other states around here, South Carolina, they' ; d go to Georgia and they would coordinate all their work together and that should be emphasized. Theirs' ; were the brains behind these bills. HUNTLEY: The big law firms? NICE: The big law firms. They were doing the work, and Albert Boutwell, he was coordinating it, getting it together, getting the bills ready. . . seeing that they were timed with other states. I mean, I' ; m putting in my words then, but I know Cabaniss and Johnson were down here and maybe other law firms, too. I saw those people. I knew them and I. . . They were down there and that' ; s what they were doing, working with other states. So that should never be overlooked. The law firms from the big states of the South were working together to coordinate this system. HUNTLEY: To continue this system of segregation? NICE: Yes. . . and the ideas came from these other states working with them and they would come here with Englehardt from one of the southern states and Boutwell and two or three others. They would get together. HUNTLEY: Right. That' ; s really important because that' ; s really not emphasized. NICE: Yes and I mean I recognized those fellows. I' ; d seen them in Birmingham when I was a law clerk to Judge Lynn. I saw those lawyers, I knew who they were and I spoke to them and they spoke to me, so I know it was Cabaniss and Johnson and may be some other firms too, but they were the principle firm that were working. HUNTLEY: Well, Judge Nice, I want to thank you again for coming out today, taking the time and sitting and giving us this information. I appreciate this written material as well. This will go into the archives and if there is anything else that you' ; d have that you would like to donate. . . NICE: I might find something and I' ; ll call you if I do. HUNTLEY: We would very much like to have it. Thank you very much. NICE: Thank you so much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CNice1995.xml CNice1995.xml
Dublin Core
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Title
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Judge Charles Nice
Description
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Judge Charles Nice discusses his career and his efforts to end segregation in the Alabama State Legislature. He went on to work with Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth to make local change.
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19950323N
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011
Pupil Placement Law
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1995-03-23
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video
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f5465006df8a9a58ca177234b656721c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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An account of the resource
Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
Interviewee
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Calvin Woods
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CWoods1995.xml
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Bull Conner
Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department
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5.4 May 12, 1995 Rev. Calvin Woods 19950512W 0:51:57 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Bull Conner Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Calvin Woods Horace Huntley Video 1:|1(2)|21(6)|34(11)|59(1)|78(6)|90(11)|113(11)|125(14)|136(12)|151(8)|165(11)|181(5)|207(10)|217(15)|232(1)|247(10)|255(9)|266(9)|277(5)|297(2)|313(1)|324(1)|340(8)|359(8)|366(5)|378(1)|395(4)|405(7)|423(8)|434(13)|449(15)|479(1)|497(3)|506(8)|523(2)|532(9)|549(8)|557(9)|583(4)|601(9)|615(7)|626(12)|634(7)|647(2)|654(8)|674(3)|683(11)|700(16)|717(11)|726(8)|734(15)|747(8) 0 https://youtu.be/RwuoF8SAORU YouTube video English 75 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Rev. Calvin Woods for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 92 Background Thank you. I just want to start by asking a few general kinds of questions about your family. Woods discusses where his parents are from and how his dad is a preacher at a baptist church. Shiloh Baptist Church Birmingham (Ala.) 211 Educational Journey That's great. Tell me about your education. Where did you start elementary school? Woods recalls how he enjoyed going to Parker High School and rejects the claims that Black people are inferior. African Americans--Segregation ; Parker High School Birmingham (Ala.) 503 Attending NAACP Meetings as a High Schooler Were there any adults in your community that you patterned yourself after or would serve as a mentor for you, in your development? Woods discusses going to NAACP meetings and talking about the issue of police brutality towards Black people. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Police brutality--United States Birmingham (Ala.) 629 Transitioning into Different Neighborhoods How would you compare, say East Thomas with Loveman's Village? Woods recalls how he felt like he was moving up in the world when he moved out of East Thomas. East Thomas ; Loveman's Village Birmingham (Ala.) 728 His Community's Relationship with the Birmingham Police What was the Black community's relationship to the Birmingham police department? Woods recalls how a white police officer helped him crank his car and how this exchange changed his mind about all white police officers being bad. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Birmingham (Ala.) 887 Involvement in the Alabama Christian Movement In 1956, the State of Alabama outlawed the operation of the NAACP in the state. As a result of that the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized. Woods recalls how a dream about Reverend Shuttlesworth pushed him to get involved with the Alabama Christian Movement. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 1028 Attending Miles College Prior to that you actually attended Miles College right after high school and that resulted, because you had won a contest of some sort. Woods discusses how he attended Miles College because he won a scholarship from the Birmingham News. Birmingham News ; Miles College Birmingham (Ala.) 1226 His Role in the Movement and Going to Jail What was your role in the Movement? How did you actually get started? Woods discusses how he encouraged people to break the law and was arrested for urging a boycott of a legal business. Arrest (Police methods) ; Boycott ; Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) 1423 Attending the Mass Meetings Can you describe to me what the typical mass meeting was like? Woods describes what the mass meetings were like and how several ministers in Birmingham believed that they should not be involved in the movement. Civil rights movement ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 1570 Bull Conner Monitoring His Church Services You had mentioned that you were monitored by Bull Conner in your sermons. How were you monitored? Woods discusses how Bull Connor monitored his sermons and how Connor got several of his parishioners to testify against him. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Bull Conner Birmingham (Ala.) 1804 Arrested at a Sit-in and Being Used as Prison Labor Were you or any of your family members ever harassed as a result of your involvement? Woods tells how he was arrested at a sit in at Woolworths and spent five days in prison working in ditches. Prison labor ; Woolworths Birmingham (Ala.) ; Sit ins 1973 Life in Jail Well, can you just give me a description of what being in jail for five days was like? Woods describes how you did not sleep in jail and how the food was disgusting. Birmingham jail Birmingham (Ala.) 2098 Participation in the Movement Between the time that you were arrested and fired from your job as you were preaching in your pulpit and the '63 demonstrations, a number of other things took place. Woods tells how he was involved in most aspects of the movement and that he pushed his parishioners to do the same. Civil rights movement ; East End Baptist Church Birmingham (Ala.) 2283 His Family's Participation in the Movement I know that your brother participated. He was a real active participant. Were there others in your family that participated in the Movement? Woods recalls that his elementary school age daughters went to jail during the demonstrations. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama Birmingham (Ala.) 2518 Responsibilities as Chairman of the Guard What were your responsibilities during the '63 demonstrations? Woods describes his responsibilities in the movement and recalls an incident while he was on guard one night at his brother's church. Police brutality ; Stonewall Johnson Birmingham (Ala.) 2901 Participation on the Negotiating Team Right. Share with me just briefly about your participation on the negotiating team? Woods discusses what it was like on the negotiating team and how he had to deal with police brutality at the city hall meetings. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham City Hall ; Police brutality--United States Birmingham (Ala.) 3078 Conclusion of Interview Right, Well, Rev. Woods I want to thank you for coming out and spending time with us today. Interview is concluded. Oral History Reverend Calvin Woods discusses his and his daughters' Movement involvement and subsequent arrests. Rev. Woods organized boycotts, served as a guard and worked on the negotiating team. His church was monitored by Bull Connor. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Rev. Calvin Woods for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is May 12, 1995. Welcome, Rev. Woods. It is a pleasure to be here with you today and thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule. WOODS: Happy to have the invitation. HUNTLEY: Thank you. I just want to start by asking a few general kinds of questions about your family. Tell me, where were your mother and father from. Were they from Birmingham or are they from other parts of the state? WOODS: My father was from Prattville, Alabama, that' ; s in Autauga County and my mother was born right out there in Eastlake, in Birmingham, right here in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Okay. Where were you born? WOODS: In East Thomas in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have and where did you fit into that number? WOODS: There are 11 of us and I am number four. Five boys and six girls. HUNTLEY: Okay. Tell me about your parents, their education and occupations. What did they do? WOODS: Well, my father was a hard working man who worked for some approximately 40 years at McWayne Pipe Shop, additionally, in later years, God called him into the ministry and he became a pastor of the Shiloh Baptist Church in Norwood, where he pastored for 40 years. I presently pastor that church. And my mother was always a housewife. HUNTLEY: Okay. So you are now pastor of the church that your father was pastor of? WOODS: Yes, I am. HUNTLEY: Second generation? WOODS: Yes, I am. HUNTLEY: Are you priming one of your sons to take it on later on? WOODS: No. I am not. I don' ; t think daddy primed me, but it just worked that way. However, I do have five sons who are already in the pastorate. HUNTLEY: Is that right? WOODS: So we don' ; t know what direction the Lord will carry them in. HUNTLEY: That' ; s great. Tell me about your education. Where did you start elementary school? WOODS: I started elementary school in East Thomas and that school only went to the 6th grade and after the 6th grade I think I got skipped about three times and along the way I went to Tuggle. I graduated from Tuggle and went on to high school. HUNTLEY: Okay. And you went on to Parker High School? WOODS: Parker High. HUNTLEY: What was Parker High School like? WOODS: Oh, it was exciting and it was thrilling. I had to begin at what we called the Parker Annex down near Lincoln school. And when you were in the 9th grade you had to go to the Annex. And after completing the 9th grade you would be able to go up to the main building and certainly we just looked forward to getting up to the main building. The Annex consisted of several small buildings like little houses. HUNTLEY: Little white buildings if I remember? WOODS: Yes, yes. It was very exciting. A lot of students and during that time Parker High School certainly was, if not, it was one of the largest Negro or Black high schools in the world. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. What stands out in your mind most about Parker? WOODS: Well, what stands out in my mind most about Parker was the zealousness of the teachers. The dedication of the teachers and the zealousness of students to excel and to achieve. We felt like we were really somebody. We had a great football team. We had the largest band that you had ever seen and there was just, it was just so great for us to be a part of that history that we had heard so many people talk about. HUNTLEY: So many scholars, sociologists, psychologists suggest that during the period, Black folk looked at themselves as inferior. How would you react to a statement like that with the background of Parker High School? WOODS: Well, we perhaps were inferior as it related to many opportunities that we should have had, but we were not inferior with ability nor inferior with our will to achieve and to excel. HUNTLEY: When you were at Parker, what community did you live in? WOODS: I lived in the East Thomas community. HUNTLEY: You were living in East Thomas? WOODS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you eventually moved out of East Thomas and you moved into Loveman' ; s Village, is that right? WOODS: That is correct. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that transition. WOODS: Well, when I moved from East Thomas to Loveman' ; s Village I was married and of course, moving to Loveman' ; s Village to a brick apartment, and oh, I felt that I was moving up in the world somewhat, at that time. HUNTLEY: Let me back up just a bit. At Parker you were involved in a number of activities. Can you talk about some of those activities that you were involved in? WOODS: Well, as I recall, at Parker High School I believe I was the president of my class from my 9th grade year through the 12th grade. HUNTLEY: What year did you graduate? WOODS: I graduated from Parker in January of 1950. I also participated in groups such as the High Y and also we had an organization that I believe we called the civic club, we would meet once per week and discuss community problems and current events. We basically would use the Birmingham World newspaper. We would listen to the radio and be observant of activities going on in our community. We would discuss what we could do to improve things. HUNTLEY: Were there any adults in your community that you patterned yourself after or would serve as mentor for you, in your development? WOODS: Yes. I had great admiration for my father, my mother and certainly for my pastor during that time, Rev. J. E. Hayes who was pastor of the First Baptist Church of East Thomas. As a matter of fact, all of the ministers in East Thomas, it was a close knit community and we finished one service at this church and we' ; d run to the other church and try to catch theirs. Also, there was a man in East Thomas by the name of Mr. Patterson who was president of the NAACP and they used to meet and have their meetings and I didn' ; t completely understand it all when I started attending, but I grew to understand. I would go to the NAACP meetings. HUNTLEY: This is as a young man, high school student? WOODS: As a young man, yes. Yes, sir. HUNTLEY: And you were attending the NAACP meetings? What were some of the issues? Do you remember any of the issues of the times? WOODS: Yes, sir, there were issues of Blacks being beaten. Blacks being lynched. Deprivation of rights and things of that nature. And I was certainly very concerned about it. HUNTLEY: So this was impressing a very young man, and in fact, it appeared to be preparing you for what you would encounter a little bit later in your life? WOODS: I didn' ; t realize it. Also, they would discuss overt police brutality during that time. It was very rampant and it was just bad at that time. HUNTLEY: How would you compare, say East Thomas with Loveman' ; s Village? The move from East Thomas to Loveman' ; s Village? I know you are going really from sort of childhood to adulthood. WOODS: Well, in some respects East Thomas was just as high above Loveman' ; s Village to some extent as the East is from the West as it relates to knowing people. Coming up as a boy, I knew every person who lived in East Thomas. And if a new family moved in, we knew the new family. And anybody could chastise us. We were aware that they could do that. However, Loveman' ; s Village meant better living facilities, you know. Better, comfort, a nice brick apartment for my family. So there were advantages in both of them. HUNTLEY: You moved from Loveman' ; s Village then to Enon Ridge, I believe? WOODS: I moved from there to Enon Ridge. HUNTLEY: What was that transition like? WOODS: Well, that transition was, I had begun to buy a home and it wasn' ; t the best, but it was a start. HUNTLEY: It was yours though. WOODS: Yes, it was mine. And God blessed me to live in Loveman' ; s Village, I guess about eight or nine years and permitted me to make that move. HUNTLEY: What was the Black community' ; s relationship to the Birmingham police department? WOODS: At what time? HUNTLEY: During and after high school, prior to the development of the Movement. WOODS: During and after high school? HUNTLEY: Right. Between say ' ; 49 and ' ; 55 or so. WOODS: Well, during that time, the police department was all Black and there was still -- HUNTLEY: The police department was -- WOODS: Was all White I mean. HUNTLEY: Okay. WOODS: Thank you. Was all White and there was still many Black citizens who would run when they' ; d see a police car coming, particularly at night if they see bright lights, they would run. You were addressed as " ; nigger" ; or as boy and at that time we didn' ; t feel that the police was our friends. In spite of that, there were some good ones. And I remember one Friday evening I went to the grocery store, my wife and I. I came back out, got in my car and the car wouldn' ; t crank. So I continued to try to get it cranked, try to get some help, I couldn' ; t get any. So a policeman drove up and asked me what was the problem and he got my car cranked. And that changed my attitude to a great extent toward the police as a result of what that man did. He was White. HUNTLEY: This is the first time that a White policeman had actually assisted you? In remember in a number of cities they have a saying on their door, the police are here " ; to protect and serve" ; , so are you suggesting that? WOODS: I wasn' ; t aware of that at that time. The only thing, as a young man, I know this White policeman did get my car cranked for me and that made an impression on me and I said all of them are not bad. Of course, I' ; m certain that all of them never were bad but that was the perception because of the police commissioner that was in power at that time, by the name of Eugene " ; Bull" ; Conner. HUNTLEY: So that helped to soften what you had felt about the police department? WOODS: Yes, it did. HUNTLEY: In 1956 the State of Alabama outlawed the operation of the NAACP in the state. As a result of that the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized. Were you a part of that organization at the time? WOODS: I was not present at the initial meeting. But I am quite certain I was there about the second meeting. HUNTLEY: So it didn' ; t take you long to get involved? WOODS: No. It didn' ; t take long. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to get involved in the Movement? WOODS: Well, I had a dream one night. I saw a man, it was Rev. Shuttlesworth. I didn' ; t even know him and it was a crowd in a church and the name of the church was Gaines Chapel, it' ; s torn down. It used to be in East Birmingham. And I saw him standing in a pulpit. He had on a black suit, a white shirt and bow tie and he was standing up talking to the people about rights. And, of course, when the word got out that he had organized this group, I became very interested. And my mind ran back to when I had heard Rev. Shuttles worth preaching on a radio station. I believe it was WBCO or something like that. At that time he was working with the NAACP and all of that came to my mind. So I was interested. The word was out that the NAACP had been outlawed and the word was out that the organizational meeting had taken place down there, I believe, in one of Dr. Gaston' ; s building. Down at Smith and Gaston they had a white building during that time. This is how I really started attending the meetings. But my involvement had not become as deep as it did later on. HUNTLEY: Prior to that you actually attended Miles College right after high school and that resulted, because you had won a contest of some sort. Tell me a little about that. WOODS: Yes. I attended Miles College right after I graduated from high school as a result of having won the Birmingham News-Post Herald Oratorical Contest. This was a contest between the various Black high schools within the city. And you had to select a subject to speak on and I chose the subject " ; Toward World Peace." ; And as a result of that I won and it wasn' ; t much, but it was great during that time. It was a $100 scholarship and $25 and I used that to get into Miles at that time. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your transition from high school to college? WOODS: I was very, very excited about going to college. And I just felt like I had already, almost reached the top of the world just being in a college setting. The teachers were very dedicated at that time. The campus was just loaded with students and the President at that time was Dr. Bell. And he too, as many others, was very dedicated and a courageous president. And he had, when he' ; d speak in chapel he would always have a concern about community. HUNTLEY: Then Miles held some real status in the community, I assume. Is that correct? WOODS: Oh, yes, Miles held great status in the community at that time. HUNTLEY: Most Black people who were being educated in Birmingham, of course, was going to Miles College? WOODS: Yes. Unless they went out of town. HUNTLEY: Right. Miles being the only school, well the biggest Black school I guess at the time?WOODS: The biggest Black school. We had Daniel Payne which was not as large as Miles, but Miles was the school. HUNTLEY: Then when the Movement, the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights is started, you, at that time were working, I assume? You were married? WOODS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Where were you working at that time? WOODS: I was working at that time at the Phoenix Building downtown which housed the telephone company for Molton, Allen & ; Williams Realtors. I was working as a janitor or custodian at that time. HUNTLEY: Were you pastoring? WOODS: At that particular time, yes, I was pastoring. HUNTLEY: What was your role in the Movement? How did you actually get started? What were the first things that you did? WOODS: Well, how I really got started in a big way in the Movement was as a result of my speaking to my congregation and anybody I could, telling them that it was unconstitutional to be segregated on buses. I told and instructed our people to sit down wherever there is a seat. If you pay your money, don' ; t get up for any White people, you know. If you get on, if there' ; s a seat, you sit down and little did I know " ; Bull" ; Conner was monitoring my service. HUNTLEY: You were actually encouraging people to break the law? WOODS: Well, I felt that the law was unconstitutional. And I didn' ; t, you know, didn' ; t try to hide that and it was unconstitutional. And I preached it everywhere I went and they had dates where I had said it, and of course, they came to my job at the Phoenix Building one morning and they sent for me to come to the office. These two detectives were there and they hand cuffed me and carried me out. I didn' ; t know why I was being arrested. HUNTLEY: And why were you being arrested? WOODS: For urging, allegedly a boycott of a legal business. HUNTLEY: That was the charge? WOODS: That was the charge. HUNTLEY: Because boycotts were illegal at the time? WOODS: Allegedly. However, as we went on through the courts, we found out that the law that they had arrested me under had been repealed in 1940. However, I was sentenced to six months at hard labor and fined $500 of which I appealed and had to go to the Alabama Circuit Court of Appeals. I was represented by attorney, our former chief justice, Oscar Adams, Jr. He represented me and of course, I had the backing and support of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. HUNTLEY: Approximately what year were you arrested? WOODS: This was approximately 1956 I believe. Just about the same year the Movement -- HUNTLEY: The beginning of the Movement? WOODS: It wasn' ; t long. I got involved very early. Yes. It was ' ; 56 or ' ; 57. HUNTLEY: So, I assume then that you attended the mass meetings on a regular basis? WOODS: I didn' ; t miss. HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what the typical mass meeting was like? WOODS: Just like a revival. Singing, praying, shouting, proclamation, inspiration, aspiration that came from each meeting. We had a minister to preach, his choir would sing. Additionally, we had the Movement choir that was started by such people as Miss Palmer, Freddie Palmer and her mother. Bo Gay, Mr. Frazier. Later Rev. Nathaniel Lee came in and took it over and a few years later, Mr. Carlton Reese came in. But it was always very, very exciting and we always looked forward to words of inspiration and guidance coming from Dr. Fred Shuttles worth. He always had a message to inspire the people and we would always go forth from that place very inspired, wanting to hurry and get back or to do whatever he told us we ought to. HUNTLEY: Did this, the kind of fervor that was developing in the mass meetings on Monday night, did this have an impact on how Black ministers were preaching in their pulpits on Sunday? WOODS: Well, let me say, it did have an effect on how a segment of them preached. But we still had some who they called " ; Uncle Tom." ; Who said, " ; You ought to leave this alone." ; But many of us were inspired as a result of the Movement and it continued to spread. And as a result of that, our people were inspired and each week the churches were just running over. We got to the point where we had to start using more than one church on a given night. HUNTLEY: You had mentioned that you were monitored by Bull Conner in your sermons. How were you monitored? Did he come to your service? WOODS: No. He undoubtedly had people there reporting because he knew what I said on different dates, on this Sunday, on that night and all of that. At my church, in particular, and things moved on to the point where he started sending policemen to the service at my church. HUNTLEY: To your Sunday services? WOODS: Yes, sir. To my Sunday services. They would park out front. Sometime one car, two and three right out in front of the church, intimidating the parishioners. So that went on for a long time. HUNTLEY: Did you ever have any idea of who was reporting back to Bull Conner? WOODS: Yes. We found out. It was a group of disgruntled people in the church who were reporting to him. We were able to secure the names of those persons who were not too happy with my leadership and I assume that they found those people and were certainly able to use them. Some of them testified against me at my trial and some of them didn' ; t even know how to use the word boycott. They said, " ; He told us we were going to have a boy scout." ; So, but they knew exactly what they were talking about. HUNTLEY: Did they return to your church after testifying against you? WOODS: Oh, yes. Yes, they did. HUNTLEY: Were other churches impacted upon in the same way that your church was? Were there others that had the police to come out and sit and attempt to intimidate? WOODS: To my knowledge, I don' ; t know. I' ; m not saying that there weren' ; t, but to my knowledge, I don' ; t have a reporting of them doing that in any other church other than the police attending our mass meetings. HUNTLEY: Now, they didn' ; t actually attend your church service? WOODS: There were occasions when they did come in. HUNTLEY: Is that right, and actually stayed? WOODS: Actually came in and sat down and I preached until heaven' ; s bells would ring and they would basically act very nice. I recall we had a business meeting scheduled. They came to the business meeting. They thought the people were going to get rid of me that night and they were there to encourage it on. But God smiled on us and of course, the Movement stood by me and also contacted the Justice Department in Washington, D.C. and they investigated the situation, I do not know how they did. But they investigated. In a period of time I got a communication from them which stated that I may wish to take injunctive proceedings, which I did secure a lawyer to institute injunctive proceedings against the people who they had disturbing our church service, getting up, walking across in front of the pulpit when I' ; d get up to preach and doing things to disrupt. And that did bring us somewhat relief. HUNTLEY: Were you or any of your family members ever harassed as a result of your involvement? WOODS: Well, I did have a pistol drawn on me on one occasion by a disgruntled person who I felt was motivated by someone and God spared me. I also was fired from my job. HUNTLEY: Were you fired after you were arrested? WOODS: Yes, after I was arrested, I was fired. HUNTLEY: Did you ever go to jail any other time during the Movement? WOODS: Yes, I did go to jail in 1963. Many of us integrated lunch counters downtown. HUNTLEY: So you were arrested at one of the restaurants? WOODS: At Woolworth' ; s. HUNTLEY: At Woolworth' ; s? WOODS: At Woolworth' ; s. And how long did you spend in jail? WOODS: Five days. HUNTLEY: The previous time that you were arrested on your job, how long did you stay in jail? WOODS: Well, just one day. I was arrested that morning and was able to get in touch with my wife and she got my deacons came and got me out. It was dark. HUNTLEY: So you didn' ; t spend -- WOODS: No. I didn' ; t spend the night. HUNTLEY: But you spent five days the second time when you were arrested for the sit-in? WOODS: I also worked on, in ditches. HUNTLEY: What do you mean? WOODS: Well, we had to cut trees down and bushes down. They would load us on a truck in the mornings and carry us out to work. We' ; d work out until the afternoon and they would bring us back. HUNTLEY: Were there others that were affiliated with the Movement that were out there working with you? WOODS: Very fortunately, my brother, Dr. Abraham Woods, Jr. and I were in the same cell and he went out and worked, he said somewhere out there in Hooper City. But we weren' ; t working together. But there were others. Also Carlton Reese and I were in the same cell and during that time he wrote the song, We' ; ve Got a Job. All of God' ; s Children Got a Job, and he asked me about it when he was, you know, getting it together that night. " ; How this sound?" ; So I can attest to the fact that he really wrote that. HUNTLEY: Is that so? WOODS: All of God' ; s children really got a job. HUNTLEY: Well, can you just give me a description of what being in jail for five days was like? WOODS: Sure. It was rough. It certainly was tough and the sleeping was not good. And you had all kind of people in there. Some of those guys were hollering all night saying various types of things. The food was terrible. I had never eaten anything like that in all the days of my life. We went down and it look like it was some hard grits, no salt or anything in them and I don' ; t know whether they call that coffee or what. It was more like grease, no sugar, no cream. I just couldn' ; t eat and I tried. I came back for the next meal, whatever time it was. I said that I was not going to eat and I didn' ; t eat. But late that evening, I ate and it taste like ice cream and cake. I was nearly starved to death. I just ate it. I was so hungry, it was awful but I ate it. HUNTLEY: It taste like birthday cake? WOODS: Your birthday cake. But the food was just horrible, just horrible. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances in your release after the five days? WOODS: The circumstances of the release in five days was that we were bonded out. We were bonded out. That' ; s the way we got out. HUNTLEY: And you didn' ; t have the occasion to go back to jail? WOODS: No. Not after that. HUNTLEY: Between the time that you were arrested and fired from your job as you were preaching in your pulpit and the ' ; 63 demonstrations, a number of other things took place. There was the Freedom Riders came through Birmingham, there were the efforts on the buses where the Movement was attempting to desegregate the buses. There was the Selective Buying Campaign developed by the students out here at Miles College. What were your participation? Was there any personal participation of yours in that period between say ' ; 59 and ' ; 63? WOODS: Sure. I participated from the inception of the Movement throughout its entirety and whatever transpired, if I knew about it, I endeavored to be a part of it. HUNTLEY: So you encouraged others to be a part as well? WOODS: Yes, I did. HUNTLEY: So your church was real active? Members of your church? WOODS: There were members, some members of my church that were very active and after I was arrested then it seemed like I gained more support from the members and had more of a free hand. I had to go on and participate in the activities, however, you have always had some who were anti. HUNTLEY: That were reluctant prior to your arrest? WOODS: Yes. And you know what I found out? That the former pastor of that church, East End, Dr. C. J. Evans was present at the very first meeting of the ACMHR' ; s organization. And some of the people there didn' ; t like that. He undoubtedly talked about it and it wasn' ; t too long thereafter. Now, I began pastoring that church I believe in about 1957 when I went to East End. I followed Dr. Evans who took ill. As a matter of fact, I read that somewhere in some documents that he was present at the first meeting in the organization there. So there were some who were disgruntled with him. And when I came in, you know, being on fire about it, so it kind of spilled over. HUNTLEY: I know that your brother participated. He was a real active participant. Were there others in your family that participated in the Movement? WOODS: Yes. I had sisters who sang in the Movement choir and of course, when the children demonstrated, three of my daughters were arrested and went to jail. HUNTLEY: How long were they in jail? WOODS: They stayed in jail overnight. Just one day. HUNTLEY: Okay. I am assuming you are speaking of the 1963 demonstration? WOODS: Yes. 1963 demonstrations. HUNTLEY: How old were they at they at the time? Were they high school age? WOODS: No. They were elementary students. HUNTLEY: And what schools did they attend? WOODS: Washington. HUNTLEY: Washington. WOODS: Washington Elementary School. At that time I was living, let me see. Yeah. I believe it was Washington Elementary School. I believe I was still living in Loveman' ; s Village. I moved out of Loveman' ; s Village, it was, I believe in, they were probably at Tuggle. They could have still been at Washington also. Because I moved on Enon Ridge in 1962. In ' ; 62. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances of them being arrested? WOODS: I didn' ; t even know they were going. They just left school with the other children. And I was just appalled. They didn' ; t ask me. HUNTLEY: You were appalled at them being out there? WOODS: Yes. I thought me being out there was sufficient. HUNTLEY: What was your reaction? What did you do after you found out they were arrested? WOODS: Well, I didn' ; t know they were going. The three of them. I didn' ; t know they were going. There was nothing I could say, you know. We were sowing the seeds of, you know, of wanting everybody to be involved, but I didn' ; t expect those little girls were going to get involved in it. So they wanted their freedom too. HUNTLEY: Did that frighten you that, you know, the possibilities that something could have happened to them? WOODS: Well, during that time, Dr. Huntley, I really didn' ; t have too much fear. I don' ; t know. God moved it from me and I really didn' ; t. It' ; s hard to explain. But he just moved that fear. I was concerned for them and for all of the children, but I didn' ; t have a fear. HUNTLEY: How did other members of your family react to the participation of your family? Maybe your mother and your father or other sisters and brothers. Were their reactions positive? WOODS: Their reactions were positive. I didn' ; t experience any adversity from them. My mother was always telling us to be careful and prayerful. Be careful and prayerful. She always told us that and she prayed for us. And our father prayed for us. Daddy had been a courageous man in his way. He would always speak up. He didn' ; t have the education that we had but he was always a man who would stand up and speak out regardless of the cost. HUNTLEY: What were your responsibilities during the ' ; 63 demonstrations? The SCLC came into Birmingham I guess in April and the Alabama Christian Movement, of course, was already here and then started to prime the pump from April to May when the kids got involved. What were your responsibilities? WOODS: One of the responsibilities that I had was that at some point along with Colonel Stonewall Johnson and Picket, I at some point became Chairman of the guards for a while, that guarded such places as Arthur Shores house and other persons home and some churches. I also served as one of the coordinators for the picketers. I also served on the negotiating team. I had been placed on the Board of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. So I did a number of things, you know, leading demonstrations and so forth like that. HUNTLEY: I know that you led a number of demonstrations. You were never arrested? WOODS: No. Not again. We were on the verge of it. We were prepared for it. But it just didn' ; t come. We were manhandled and of course, on occasion, I was beaten, but I was not arrested again. HUNTLEY: When you marched and you encountered policeman, can you describe what that feeling was like? WOODS: Well, we expected viciousness and adversity from the police because of past history. And at sometime the atmosphere was more tense than at others. But we were determined to march on. At some occasions the police encountered the protestors and beat them but that did not deter the marches. It may have slowed it up at some points but we would regroup and go right back. So we were just prepared for any eventuality that would take place and we approached this in a non- violent fashion. We were instructed that we had to be non-violent and we were pledged and we were dedicated to that. Not to hit back. Not to strike back. HUNTLEY: You participated, you say you were Captain of the guards for a while? WOODS: For a while. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me how that was organized? WOODS: Well, I was organized. So much was going on until I was asked by somebody to work with them and we just asked certain men and women to work with us and we would give assignments where they would stay for a few hours as long as they could. HUNTLEY: So there were women associated with the guards as well? WOODS: Yes. There were some women also. Not to the extent that there were men, but there were some women also. HUNTLEY: When you guarded specific places, were you armed? WOODS: No. We were not armed. We would just -- some of the other men were armed. I could name a few. But most of us were not even armed. I don' ; t know how we were guarding, but we were there. HUNTLEY: You were there to see if anyone else came? WOODS: I remember I had one of my small sons with me and something just told me to get up. I wasn' ; t guarding that particular place. It was in the wee hours of the morning and I went down, I went to my brother' ; s church and a White man had WOODS: I took off behind him. Didn' ; t have a sling shot or anything. HUNTLEY: You saw him at your brother' ; s church and what did he do? WOODS: When he saw me turn the corner right there, he ran and got back in his car. And I took off behind him. I don' ; t know what I was going to do. But until it dawned on me that I was following this man. HUNTLEY: You did not have anything and you did not know what he had? WOODS: Not a thing in the world but Jesus -- but the Lord. HUNTLEY: You didn' ; t catch him? WOODS: No. I stopped. I don' ; t know what I was going to do if, you know, just like that and some of the other brethren can tell you things that were even more exciting of what they experienced being on guard duty and many of them dealt with it to a greater magnitude than I did, because in later years I did that. But some of those older men like Stonewall and Pickens and people like that, Ms. Holloway, they were in the thick of it when many of the bombings were taking place. They could tell you about the different cars they' ; d see come by and all of that. HUNTLEY: Right. Share with me just briefly about your participation on the negotiating team? WOODS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you give me just any information or description of what those negotiation sessions were like? WOODS: Well, we had negotiating sessions at City Hall, I believe it could have been during the tenure of Albert Boutwell who was the mayor and even during the time of George Seibels. It extends a period of time and some asked me to speak because I was very out spoken. I' ; d speak out and they said I' ; d talk too much sometime. Also, David Vann, former mayor and I served on a negotiation transition team trying to bring the different factions together. We were getting ready to scale down the demonstrations and I was noted for being a hard negotiator because I was, as a matter of fact, they said I was a little outlandish. I was tough during that particular time. I also served as convener for the Ministers Leadership Training Program that was a branch of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference which secured many jobs here in Birmingham and negotiated with many businesses. As a matter of fact, gave money to Miles College. Got businesses to give money to Miles College to the Birmingham Baptist Bible College and got businesses to put money in our Black bank to give advertisement to the Birmingham World and the other Black papers. All of them, as a result of our negotiations with companies such as these bakeries and so forth. We worked with that, we didn' ; t get a lot of publicity about it, but the record is there that these things took place and on some occasion we had to call for people to picket some of the grocery stores. HUNTLEY: So you have been obviously very actively involved throughout the Movement period. WOODS: Yes. And we also dealt with police brutality. Throughout negotiation committees and so forth, like that. HUNTLEY: Right. Well, Rev. Woods I want to thank you for coming out and spending time with us today. You have given us a lot of information and we will obviously be in touch with you because once we go through this we may want to sit down and talk with you again. WOODS: All right. Thank you for inviting me. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CWoods1995.xml CWoods1995.xml
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Rev. Calvin Woods
Description
An account of the resource
Reverend Calvin Woods discusses his and his daughters' Movement involvement and subsequent arrests. Rev. Woods organized boycotts, served as a guard and worked on the negotiating team. His church was monitored by Bull Connor.
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19950512W
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights
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1995-05-12
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video
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https://bcriohp.org/files/original/b4da1c3993fc917d997d00678f7eadc6.jpg
6eff79d72bdf29121f34064b6f900ffa
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
Description
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Format
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Video
Type
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Oral History
Subject
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
Interviewee
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Daisy Jeffries
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Viewer).
http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=DJefferies1995.xml
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included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration
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Sit-ins
Mass Meeting
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contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 May 12, 1995 Daisy Jeffries 19950512J 0:23:34 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham NAACP Sit-ins Mass Meeting Daisy Jeffries Horace Huntley Video 1:|1(2)|19(5)|79(8)|105(4)|126(6)|143(4)|158(1)|181(9)|192(4)|206(5)|221(7)|243(9)|253(13)|253(15)|253(17)|267(15)|282(12)|302(11)|314(12)|325(13)|345(14)|360(17)|378(9) 0 https://youtu.be/fCxU6prkJhg YouTube video English 63 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Ms. Daisy Jeffries for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 79 Background and Educational Journey Yes, ma'am. I just want to start out by asking some general types of questions. Jeffries tells details about her family and where she went to school and college. Miles College ; Parker High School Birmingham (Ala.) 243 Living in Enon Ridge Community What we are doing, we are attempting to get information about how Birmingham developed over time and you, by living in Enon Ridge, how would you describe Enon Ridge as a community in the time that you were living there, in the early days? Jeffries describes her neighborhood and how it was a nice place to live. Enon Ridge Birmingham (Ala.) 321 Involvement with the NAACP Were you a member of any community organizations? Jeffries discusses her involvement in the NAACP and how the police would come to their meetings to try and scare them. Mass Meeting ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Sardis Baptist Church Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States 462 How She Got Involved with the Movement Tell me, how did you get involved in the Movement? Jeffries recalls how she got involved in the movement because her church was involved in the movement. Civil rights movement ; Sardis Baptist Church Birmingham (Ala.) 573 Attending Mass Meetings Did you attend the Movement's mass meetings? Jeffries recalls how most everyone came to the meetings including the police and how she avoided going to jail twice. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Civil rights movement ; Mass Meeting Birmingham (Ala.) 728 Her Family's Participation in the Movement Did others in your family participate? Jeffries recalls how her husband couldn't participate because of his job but tells how she was never afraid of losing her job due to her involvement. ACIPCO ; Civil rights movement American Cast Iron Pipe Company ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1050 Marching in the 1963 Demonstrations In 1963, when the demonstrations took place here in Birmingham, were you actively involved? Jeffries discusses how she marched in the 1963 demonstrations and how she wasn't afraid of anything. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama Birmingham (Ala.) 1109 Success of the Movement and Avoiding Jail How would you asses the Birmingham Movement? Do you think it was successful? Jeffries tells how she thinks the movement was very successful and describes how she avoided jail for a third time. Civil rights movement ; Ku Klux Klan Birmingham (Ala.) 1243 Coordinating Sit-ins Is there anything else that you would like to add that we haven't dealt with that relates to the Movement? Jeffries discusses how she organized sit-ins and became a leader in her church for the movement. Civil rights movement ; Sardis Baptist Church ; Sit-in Birmingham (Ala.) 1362 Conclusion of Interview Ms. Jeffries, I want to thank you for coming out and spending this time with us today because you have been very helpful. Interview is concluded. Oral History Daisy Jeffries discusses avoiding jail despite being very active in the Movement, including coordinating sit-in demonstrations. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Daisy Jeffries for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is May 12, 1995. Thank you Ms. Jeffries for coming out and sitting and talking with us today JEFFRIES: I appreciate the invitation. HUNTLEY: Yes, ma' ; am. I just want to start out by asking some general types of questions. Where are you from originally? Where were you born? JEFFRIES: I was born in Demopolis, Alabama. HUNTLEY: In Demopolis. And you went to elementary school and high school in Demopolis? JEFFRIES: I went to elementary school in Demopolis. And when we moved to Gallion, Alabama, I went to Stillman Elementary School. And then we moved. I had an aunt that lived in Demopolis and I lived with her while I went to school. HUNTLEY: So you came to Birmingham after you finished high school? JEFFRIES: Yes. After I finished high school, I came to Birmingham and went back to school. HUNTLEY: Where did you go to school then? JEFFRIES: Oh, I went to Parker. They had these classes down there that they called them, addition to school that you had already had. HUNTLEY: The Parker Annex? JEFFRIES: Oh, quite a few of us went to Parker. HUNTLEY: And you graduated from Parker? JEFFRIES: I did. HUNTLEY: And then where did you go to college? JEFFRIES: Miles College. I graduated from Miles. JEFFRIES: I appreciate the invitation. HUNTLEY: Yes, ma' ; am. I just want to start out by asking some general types of questions. Where are you from originally? Where were you born? JEFFRIES: I was born in Demopolis, Alabama. HUNTLEY: In Demopolis. And you went to elementary school and high school in Demopolis? JEFFRIES: I went to elementary school in Demopolis. And when we moved to Gallion, Alabama, I went to Stillman Elementary School. And then we moved. I had an aunt that lived in Demopolis and I lived with her while I went to school. HUNTLEY: So you came to Birmingham after you finished high school? JEFFRIES: Yes. After I finished high school, I came to Birmingham and went back to school. HUNTLEY: Where did you go to school then? JEFFRIES: Oh, I went to Parker. They had these classes down there that they called them, addition to school that you had already had. HUNTLEY: The Parker Annex? JEFFRIES: Oh, quite a few of us went to Parker. HUNTLEY: And you graduated from Parker? JEFFRIES: I did. HUNTLEY: And then where did you go to college? JEFFRIES: Miles College. I graduated from Miles. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have? JEFFRIES: I had three brothers. I never had any sisters. I had three brothers and all three of them have passed on. HUNTLEY: The only girl? JEFFRIES: The only one left now. HUNTLEY: Right. Were your parents from Demopolis as well, both of them? JEFFRIES: Both of them. They moved to Gallion, Alabama. That' ; s where they were really from. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did they do? JEFFRIES: Well, my father was a Baptist preacher, and Mommy worked. Women didn' ; t work a lot out, you know, she just worked around the house. She never had a job out, she just kept house. HUNTLEY: She was a housewife? JEFFRIES: Yes. And he preached and had a little farm like. My brothers worked. One of my oldest brothers worked out, but he drowned. HUNTLEY: Was that here in Birmingham? JEFFRIES: No. In Gallion, where we were. HUNTLEY: Is that Gallion? JEFFRIES: G-A-L-L-I-O-N. HUNTLEY: What we are doing, we are attempting to get information about how Birmingham developed over time and you, by living in Enon Ridge, how would you describe Enon Ridge as a community in the time that you were living there, in the early days? JEFFRIES: Enon Ridge was up the hill from Smithfield. Fine hard-working people, nice homes and Churches. It consists of Tuggle School and down the hill to Parker High School. Well, when I first moved there, I always thought it was a nice place, it was a quiet place and the people believed in owning something or having something. It had several churches there and it was just a small, nice neighborhood. Everybody knew everybody, helped everybody. HUNTLEY: What were the occupations of people that lived there? You finished Miles and you were a teacher, right? JEFFRIES: Yes, that' ; s right. HUNTLEY: What other kinds of occupations were in your neighborhood? JEFFRIES: Well, quite a few went to school. Quite a few finished Miles with me. And, of course, went into work business, you know how they had work going on, especially boys. A lot of them went into work business. But quite a few went to school. HUNTLEY: Were you a member of any community organizations? JEFFRIES: Oh, yes. I can' ; t remember. HUNTLEY: Were you ever a member of the NAACP? JEFFRIES: Oh, yes. I could have brought you a book about that. Yes-- we went at night and met and night when the other people were afraid. Yes, I was quite an NAACP person. I always have been a civic minded person and I work with them now. HUNTLEY: Well, what were some of the issues that you were concerned about as a member of the NAACP? JEFFRIES: We broke down a lot of barriers. We went to a lot of places Black folks hadn' ; t ever been. I guess being reared with boys, I had never been, what you call a scary person. And I would go " ; Are we going to such and such place tonight?" ; And at that time, they were really rough. They were bombing all around the place. If they found your meeting place, but I never was afraid and wherever they went, I went too. HUNTLEY: You say you were going various places? JEFFRIES: Yes. The churches, even at our church, Sardis Baptist Church and we had meetings there when people were afraid to come and most of the churches around 16th Street, most of the churches around there. We went, we was going to see what went on then. And you know in all of that fear, we weren' ; t afraid of anybody. All that fear went away. The police all in a line, parked, we walked right by them like they weren' ; t even there and they finally quit coming. HUNTLEY: This was at the meetings? JEFFRIES: Yes. Police was at the meetings. They thought that would frighten you from coming and we went right on with them. Wherever the boys went we went right on with them. But those were some tough times in those days. HUNTLEY: Were there other teachers involved? JEFFRIES: A few. They were afraid of losing their job. But I told them I lived a long time before I taught and I thought I could live on. I didn' ; t think about getting fired. I don' ; t guess I had sense enough. HUNTLEY: Tell me, how did you get involved in the Movement? What were the circumstances of your getting involved? JEFFRIES: Our church was involved. HUNTLEY: And what church was that? JEFFRIES: Sardis Baptist Church up on the hill. Well, this is walking distance from my house. But it was some people there and we had a pastor, Rev. C. H. George, he was an elderly man, but he wasn' ; t afraid of anything and that' ; s where we got our encouragement from him. And we had our meeting and sometimes we would get there and the police just almost like people dropping handkerchiefs, standing all around the door and we would go there and stand and finally they would move and let us come in. I got to the place we just weren' ; t afraid of anything. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in sit-ins or any of the big demonstrations? JEFFRIES: No. I didn' ; t go out. Well, we did most of this around the churches, at home. Quite a few of them did, buses and all that kind of thing. But we did help to integrate the buses because we would just get on, we weren' ; t going anywhere. But get on and sit down and they would look at us. And when they got through looking then they would get off. It was interesting though. The things that we went through, you just wouldn' ; t think people with good sense, they told us we didn' ; t have good sense. And most of a lot of the older people was afraid that they were going to bomb their houses and all that kind of thing. But it was something and when I think about it now, it was amazing, but we didn' ; t think about being afraid. HUNTLEY: Did you attend the Movement' ; s mass meetings? JEFFRIES: Yes. When it was, as they say, " ; When it got so hot." ; We were having meetings every night, every night. Most of the churches around, some was afraid for us to come and our church started it off and then the others and Rev. C. H. George was kind of elderly man that pastored our church, he wasn' ; t afraid of anything and that gave us more courage. It was interesting and I think about it now and I wonder how did we do it. HUNTLEY: How would you describe a typical mass meeting? JEFFRIES: Well, it was people, all the people from everywhere would come. And they would have different ministers, those who were not afraid to come. And they would have people to come and speak, men and women. They were just so interesting. And the people, the church full and all around, it was an interesting thing. And the people, they would just think about the thing that they wanted and they would talk about what they could do if we would stick together and they did that. The church couldn' ; t hold them. They would stand up. It was quite interesting. HUNTLEY: Were there ever Birmingham Police officers in the meeting? JEFFRIES: Every night. Every night. HUNTLEY: Why were they there? JEFFRIES: Think they going to frighten somebody away. And after they saw we weren' ; t thinking about them, they gradually dropped off. But they would be standing right there in the door, standing in the door and we' ; d just stand. We' ; d just stand there until they finally moved and we would go on in. Nobody raised any disturbance or say anything. HUNTLEY: Did you ever go to jail? JEFFRIES: No. I didn' ; t. I missed jail twice. HUNTLEY: How do you mean, you missed jail twice? JEFFRIES: They arrested five people and another lady and myself. When the man had looked around we had walked in the church and they didn' ; t know what happened to us so they had to take them ahead and go on. We laughed about it. And another time, just like when you would walk up to the church and they would just touching them, just touching them, taking them on off, then I just went in the side door, and that' ; s how I missed it. I never did get to jail, but I got close. I wasn' ; t anxious about going to jail. HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate? JEFFRIES: Yes. They participated. I had a younger brother. He was a bad man. He wasn' ; t afraid of anybody. When White people see that you are not afraid then they get afraid. We would walk up and just stand there. And finally they would move to the side. I reckon they say, I' ; m tired of these niggers standing up here. They moved to the side and we' ; d walk in. So finally they quit that foolishness, you know. People sure can be crazy. HUNTLEY: Did your husband participate? JEFFRIES: Well, he was working. No. He didn' ; t participate too much. He pushed us and any help he could give to us. He worked at the steel plant and they was really checking on all the fellows at ACIPICO and steel plants like that. Of course, we had to eat. HUNTLEY: Well, if you were teaching, there were teachers who refused to participate because they were afraid? Why were you not afraid? JEFFRIES: I never was afraid because I was eating before I started teaching. Oh, I' ; m thinking about I' ; d hope they fired me and I wouldn' ; t have worried about it. But was just so happy. I had never been a scary person or nothing, not too much. And my husband would say, " ; You just think you can whip everybody." ; I said, " ; No. I don' ; t worry about whipping everybody, but ain' ; t anybody going to whip me." ; HUNTLEY: So did he ever attend any of the mass meetings? JEFFRIES: Oh yes. He attended quite a few of the mass meetings, but he didn' ; t take as much part as I did because I travelled with a lot of them. Places they went, I liked travelling anyway. HUNTLEY: Where did you travel? JEFFRIES: Different places around. Not too far away. But we would go and have meetings.Those people would come to us and we would go over to East Thomas and all the neighboring churches and then sometimes we would get a bus and go on out somewhere. We really worked together better than I think we ever did before or since. But it was the most interesting thing. But I never was afraid. I never thought anybody was going to do anything to me. And I reckon I was crazy. HUNTLEY: Were your neighbors involved? JEFFRIES: Quite a few. And some, just like everything else, they would sit on the porch and talk about what " ; they going to keep on running up there until they kill some of them up there." ; HUNTLEY: In 1963 when the demonstrations took place here in Birmingham, were you actively involved? JEFFRIES: Oh, yes. I marched. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the marches? JEFFRIES: Well, we would meet, we would meet at various churches and things like that had just become a part of it, you know. And all you wanted to know was where you wanted to meet and people was making excuses about where they can' ; t go and all of that. But they got those cars, trucks and buses and everything and we would be there. I mean when the members of the church got there, we were there. It was interesting and it would kind of grow on you. It was in your blood and don' ; t be afraid of anything. I think about it now. My mother said, " ; The Lord take care of babies and fools." ; You know, they were kind of chicken. HUNTLEY: How would you assess the Birmingham Movement? Do you think it was successful? JEFFRIES: I think it was quite successful. Because see somebody had to start somewhere and we talked about it and the folks talked about it and I think the first meeting that they had at the church, it wasn' ; t, they got groups together before they had a meeting and anybody out there belong to any other church, they met. We had the first meeting at our church and all the men, well the men was for it first, you know and setting it up but we were always around on hand and the ministers, it just spread to the ministers but there was some who never showed. The man said that' ; s where they were getting their bread, so they could leave it, but quite a few participated and as time went on, they came in. HUNTLEY: What is the most vivid memory that you have of the Movement activity? JEFFRIES: Well, I got so close to going to jail. Of course, it didn' ; t matter with me. I kind of wanted to go because some of my friends were going, but one night we were just about to leave. We thought all the White folks, all the Ku Klux was gone, you know. HUNTLEY: You were just about to leave the church? JEFFRIES: Leave the church, yes. HUNTLEY: After a meeting? JEFFRIES: Yes. After a meeting. And when we came to the door, they was standing there. " ; Well, there' ; s some niggers there, they ain' ; t never left. We' ; re just carry them on to jail." ; So I had a jacket over my arm, I just reached around and got my jacket, I was going to jail. But my brother and two of my brothers were there. They definitely didn' ; t want me to go to jail, you know. And he just kind of pushed me around to this little closet and they went on out there. They went on to jail, but they definitely didn' ; t want me to go to jail. I never did go. HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to add that we haven' ; t dealt with that relates to the Movement? JEFFRIES: Well, if you had told me I could have jotted some things down. HUNTLEY: You said you marched. Did you ever sit-in? JEFFRIES: No. They went places and sat-in and I didn' ; t ever go over there. HUNTLEY: Did you ever help coordinate those kinds of things? JEFFRIES: Oh, yes. At my church, because those people were so afraid when they first started. And I was so brave and they would look at me. But I didn' ; t have any fear because it was something that had to be done and somebody had to do it. HUNTLEY: So you thought that this was just part of your duty? JEFFRIES: I really felt that way and I still feel that way. If there' ; s anything I can do to the betterment of the country or home life, I said, " ; Well, after all you supposed to be here to do something." ; And as my mother say, " ; you should put forth to do something." ; But anywhere I can help or encourage people to do something like that. Putting all your money and all your fine houses and everything. I said, " ; And you wouldn' ; t even need to spend a dime to help somebody, not anything." ; Oh, they lived such and such a place, they don' ; t come up to my standards and this kind of junk. You know we will spite. As my brother say, " ; Just let them get a new pair of shoes." ; HUNTLEY: Ms. Jeffries, I want to thank you for coming out and spending this time with us today because you have been very helpful. JEFFRIES: Well, if you had told me I could have jotted a lot of things down. HUNTLEY: Well, we may do it again sometime and that would be helpful. JEFFRIES: Yes. HUNTLEY: All right. And if you have any items that you would like to donate to the Civil Rights Institute we would be very thankful for that. JEFFRIES: Well, I' ; ll do that, I sure will. And I appreciate you inviting me. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
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Daisy Jeffries
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Daisy Jeffries discusses avoiding jail despite being very active in the Movement, including coordinating sit-in demonstrations.
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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1995-05-12
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Horace Huntley
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George Price
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5.4 March 24, 1995 George Price 19950324P 0:58:30 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Voter Registration--Photo ID George Price Horace Huntley Video 1:|3(1)|20(11)|52(14)|71(16)|90(1)|114(7)|138(6)|150(5)|165(13)|183(5)|198(12)|217(5)|236(7)|258(7)|281(12)|304(9)|325(1)|350(1)|366(10)|388(1)|399(6)|421(2)|447(9)|468(2)|485(2)|504(11)|525(4)|551(3)|563(18)|579(8)|595(8)|608(1)|628(9)|649(7)|664(5)|682(1)|700(5)|716(10)|746(2)|760(16)|783(8)|795(6)|813(6)|837(13)|850(7)|868(5)|882(11)|903(6)|918(8)|929(3)|942(9)|958(3)|975(3)|988(12)|1001(5)|1023(5)|1035(2)|1057(8) 0 https://youtu.be/WAfb6eOhRKo YouTube video English 47 Introduction of Interview This is an interview for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute with Mr. George Price. I am Dr. Horace Huntley, it is March 24, 1995 and we're at Miles College. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 68 Background and Educational Journey We just want to start by just getting a little background information. Tell me a little about your background. Where were you born and where did you grow up? Price discusses where he grew up, his military service, and where he went to college. America's armed forces ; Tuskegee Institute Avondale (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Tuskegee (Ala.) 203 Employment After College And, after you finished Tuskegee, what did you do? What kind of work? Price discusses where he worked after university and how he was part of labor unions. Conner Steel ; General Houseware Corporation American Labor Union ; Birmingham (Ala.) 304 Personal Involvement in the Mine, Mill, and Smelter Workers Labor Union One of the labor unions was Mine, Mill, and Smelter Workers. Can you tell me a little about that organization. How active were you involved with them? Price recalls his involvement in the labor union and how the labor union helped Black workers earn fair wages. Asberry Howard ; International Union of Mine, Mill, and Smelter Workers Birmingham (Ala.) 531 Community Demographics What community did you live in at that time during the 50s? Price recalls the class level and racial make-up of his community and how it was predominately working-class, black people. Blacks--Segregation ; Working class African Americans Birmingham (Ala.) 603 His Community's Relationship with the Birmingham Police Department Okay. What was your community's relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? Price discusses how he and his coworkers were harassed by the police whenever the would walk to and from work at night. Alabama Cement and Tile ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Police harassment Birmingham (Ala.) 796 Involvement in the Civil Rights Movement Let me ask you, how and why did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement? Price discusses how he joined the NAACP in the army and joined the Titusville chapter once back in the States. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 964 Involvement with the NAACP So, from '47 to '56, you were actively involved with the NAACP? Price discusses going to the NAACP meetings and incidents that occurred throughout his time in the group. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People Birmingham (Ala.) ; Blacks--Segregation 1071 Formation of the Alabama Christian Movement In 1956 then, the NAACP is outlawed from operating in the state, what happens then? Price recalls how the Alabama Christian Movement was formed and how the movement got involved with registering black people to vote. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Bethel Baptist Church (Saint Clair County, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Voter registration 1369 His Family's Involvement in the Movement Did other in your family participate? Price discusses how his family became involved in the movement over time and how he spoke at the mass meetings. Civil rights movement ; Mass meetings Birmingham (Ala.) 1461 Helping the Shuttlesworth Children Get Out of Jail Tell me about some of the incidents that you may have witnessed, the kinds of things that were happening during this time. Price recalls how the Shuttlesworth children went to jail for refusing to give up their seat and how he went to get them out of jail. Arrest (Police methods) ; Shuttleworth family Birmingham (Ala.) ; Gadsden (Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1627 His Church's Involvement in the Movement Absolutely. What church were you a member of? Price discusses his church's involvement in the movement as well as helping members of his church register to vote. New Hope Baptist Church ; Stone, Herman Birmingham (Ala.) ; Voter registration--United States 1831 Impact of the Supreme Court's Decision to Integrate the Buses What about the buses? Did you have any activity... Price recalls how black people were still treated badly after the Supreme Court's decision to integrate the buses. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Alabama. Supreme Court Birmingham (Ala.) 2036 Memories of the Integration of Phillips High School Were you associated with Rev. Shuttlesworth when he went to integrate Phillips High School? Price recalls how Reverend Shuttlesworth was beaten up when he tried to integrate Phillips High School. Phillips High School ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 2176 Selective Buying Campaign at Miles College In '62, Miles College students got involved in a Selective Buying Campaign. Are you familiar with that? Price discusses how himself and other students at Miles College were involved in a selective buying campaign at shoe stores. Miles College ; Selective buying campaign Birmingham (Ala.) 2295 The 1963 Demonstrations What do you remember most about that period? Price discusses the demonstrations and how the police sprayed them with the hoses and were attacked by dogs. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Police brutality--United States Birmingham (Ala.) 2426 Personal Relationship with Dr. King Were there ever any times when you... well, were associated closely with Dr. King? Price recalls how Dr. King asked him to go to Montgomery so they could discuss how to get Black people to vote. King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Montgomery (Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) 2565 Involvement in the Movement Outside of Birmingham There were efforts made by individuals here in Birmingham to assist people in other parts of the country when they had difficulty where civil rights were concerned. Price recalls how he went to Virginia to try and get the public schools reopened. Abernathy, Ralph, 1926-1990 ; Blacks--Segregation Norfolk (Va.) ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 2697 Benefits His Community Realized from the Movement On the local scene, what benefits did you, your family and community realize as a result of the Movement? Price discusses how the movement helped the young people of Birmingham and the generations to come. African American youth Birmingham (Ala.) 2736 Things He Would Change About the Movement If you were in control of the Movement and could go back and change some things, what would you change? Price states that he would not change anything about the movement and says that he would have done it the same way. Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) 2833 Continuation of the Movement After Dr. King's Death Some people would say that the Movement died with Dr. King in 1968 and there is no movement going on today. How would you react to that? Price states that the movement continued after Dr. King's death and how there is still a need for affirmative action. Affirmative action programs ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.) 2919 Success of the Birmingham Movement Well, how would you assess the Birmingham Movement? Price discusses the success of the Birmingham movement but how it failed to enact positive change in black schools. Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) 3106 Helping Black People Register to Vote Okay. Is there anything else that you'd like to add that we hadn't dealt with today? Price discusses how Black people weren't given fair chances to vote like white people were. Voter registration--United States Birmingham (Ala.) 3359 Poll Tax Imposed on Voters Is there anything else that you would like to... Price discusses how many Black people were unable to vote because they could not pay their poll tax. Poll tax Birmingham (Ala.) 3458 Conclusion of Interview Well, I certainly appreciate you taking your time out of your busy schedule and coming and talk with us today, because what you have done for us, you've helped us to put another piece of the puzzle together. Interview is concluded. Oral History George Price discusses working closely with Dr. King and Reverend Shuttlesworth, including helping to found ACMHR. His work focused largely on labor unions and voter registration. HUNTLEY: This is an interview for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute with Mr. George Price. I am Dr. Horace Huntley, it is March 24, 1995 and we' ; re at Miles College. Mr. Price thank you for taking your time to come and sit with us this morning to talk about Birmingham and the Civil Rights Movement. PRICE: Thank you for inviting me. HUNTLEY: We just want to start by just getting a little background information. Tell me a little about your background. Where were your born and where did you grow up? PRICE: I was born in Greene County and at the age of three months old I was brought to Birmingham and I grew up in Avondale and Woodlawn section of Birmingham, Alabama. I attended school at Thomas School in Avondale and elementary school and from there to Lincoln School and from there to Parker. And, I was a freshman at Talladega College when I finished Parker High School, but due to the lack of money, I had to come out of school at about three months, so I couldn' ; t go back to school then until I went into the Armed Forces of the United States of America. And, when I got out of the Armed Forces of the United States of America, I used my GI Bill a few years later to go back to school to try and complete my education, which I did at Tuskegee Institute in Tuskegee, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Let me ask you, did you...when you came to Birmingham, did you come with your parents. PRICE: My parents brought me. My aunt brought me to Birmingham because I was three months old. HUNTLEY: Did they remain in Eutaw? PRICE: My parents remained in Eutaw until their death. HUNTLEY: And then you were raised by your aunt here in Birmingham? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: So you then know very little about Eutaw and Greene County, Alabama? PRICE: Very little. HUNTLEY: So, you then went through the Birmingham school system and you went on to Talladega College. PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: From Talladega you eventually went to Tuskegee? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: And from Tuskegee, what...was this after or before you went to the military? PRICE: I went to Talladega before I went to the military, but Tuskegee after I went to the military because I didn' ; t have no money and not having any money, doubtless had it not been for the military service, I wouldn' ; t have been able to go to Tuskegee because I went on the GI Bill. HUNTLEY: How long were you in the military? PRICE: Four years. HUNTLEY: Four years. After you came out of the military, then you went to Tuskegee. What was your major...what did you major in in college? PRICE: General Education and Business. HUNTLEY: And, after you finished Tuskegee, what did you do? What kind of work? PRICE: I went to work for Conner Steel as an iron inspector for a short period of time and after that, I left and went to New York to better my condition. And my aunt that I lived with, after I was in New York maybe 18 or 19 months took sick and they called me and I came from New York here to see about her and I was here maybe two weeks and I went back to my job in New York and I was there maybe a week and a half before I was called back to come back to see about her. When I came back, she was so sick, I put her in the hospital and I just stayed until she died. I remained in Birmingham then and I went to work for General Houseware Corporation and I remained with General Houseware until I retired. HUNTLEY: What did you do at General Houseware? PRICE: A welder. HUNTLEY: A welder. You also were a member of a labor union. PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: What company did you work for when you were a member of that labor union? PRICE: I was a member of the labor union even when I worked at Conner Steel and when I was with Dupont, I was with a labor union, too. I' ; ve always, wherever I worked, if there was a labor union available, I always joined the labor union. HUNTLEY: One of the labor unions was Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers. Can you tell me a little about that organization. How active were you involved with them? PRICE: With Mine and Smelter Workers, I went from a shop steward to vice president in the labor union. . . oh. . . I was a shop steward for maybe six months and from there to a committeeman and from a committeeman to vice president over a period of years. And, I was elected vice president at least three different times. HUNTLEY: Is this in the 50s? PRICE: Yeah. HUNTLEY: So, this is the same time that Mine, Mill and the Steel Workers union. . . PRICE: No, before then. HUNTLEY: Before they merged? PRICE: Before they merged. HUNTLEY: So then, you knew Asberry Howard? PRICE: Definitely so. HUNTLEY: How well did you. . . PRICE: We were good friends. HUNTLEY: Did you work together in the union? PRICE: Oh yes, and negotiating contracts and file as a grievance committee and fighting cases for men and trying to see that people get their fair share of rights when men were fired from their jobs. Asberry Howard and I worked together for a number of years doing this. HUNTLEY: The. . . Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers Union organized in Birmingham in 1933 and in the 40s there was a big rift between Black workers and White workers. Black workers lived and died by Mine, Mill. There were some White workers that were also involved with that. This was prior to your getting involved in the union, right? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: So, Black workers looked at that union as being more than just a union, but really a way of life because they had official positions that was designated for Black workers. . . vice presidents, the recording secretaries and others. In other words, it was an inter-racial union. Was it still that way when you were involved in the 50s? PRICE: Yes, most of it was that way. I can' ; t think too much has changed in that particular time during the time that I worked for... the company that I worked for at that particular time was very rude to the workers and they weren' ; t really nice as they should have been. So, we always had some up road that we always had to fight for and we had to call Asberry Howard in, being the vice president of Mill, Mine, Smelter Workers in most cases. Then, we had a problem during contract negotiations trying to get increases in benefits and the company wasn' ; t too liberal about doing that. We got such raises as five cents and seven cents and a dime and maybe the most I' ; ve ever saw there was fifteen cents on the hour. HUNTLEY: Would you say that the union did make a difference? PRICE: Made all the difference in the world. Without the union, they would run off anybody they want to and do what they wanted to do. They probably would pay different rates or wages for different people. When I mean different people Blacks would always be underpaid, but the union made it so where Blacks received what Whites received doing the same type of work. So, the union also made a difference in seniority whereas if you had a seniority over another person whether they were White or Black, the union saw to it that you got what was just for you by applying the seniority as it was supposed to be applied. If it not had been for the union, then other workers might have an advantage over you. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in at that time during the 50s? PRICE: Oh, 10th Avenue and the address was 3019 10th Avenue North. HUNTLEY: So, is that Norwood? PRICE: That' ; s the edge of Norwood. Right at the edge of Norwood. HUNTLEY: How would you describe that community? The make-up, the racial make-up, the occupations that people had?PRICE: Most the people in that community were ordinary working people. There weren' ; t any highly educated people earning fair and low salaries. There wasn' ; t anybody that I know that earned what I would consider a decent salary or made enough money to live in the type of community that they should have been able to live in. HUNTLEY: So, most of those people probably lived and worked in that particular area? PRICE: Worked in that area and there were other areas that they worked in beside there. Probably most over time, but, the type of people lived in there, they didn' ; t earn too much money. HUNTLEY: Okay. What was your community' ; s relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? PRICE: There was no relationship at that time with the Birmingham Police Department because the Birmingham Police Department was lily White. There weren' ; t any Blacks in the police department and the police weren' ; t too nice to Black people period in that area. I was stopped going to work several times by the police just coming to work and they searched me and want to know where I came from and know where I was going, so if they didn' ; t find no gun, they decided to let me go on home. And, there was times that I come out the plant to my car and the police passed on the street, and if they see you getting in the car, they would turn around, stop and question you and you just got off from work. We had to go to the company and talk to the company concerning how rude the police were towards the workers when they got off at night. You see, at one time I was working from 3-11 and when you get off at 11:00 o' ; clock and take a bath it' ; s 11:30. You get to your car it' ; s about 20 minutes to twelve, so the police was on a rampage at that time and they weren' ; t too nice to Black people at all. HUNTLEY: And this is in the 50s? PRICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: And what did the company say when you' ; d go to them and inform about what the police were doing? PRICE: They called the police department and they talked to maybe. . . I don' ; t know. . . Jimmy Moore was Chief of Police at that time and they said that the police wouldn' ; t bother us anymore, so they lightened up. They weren' ; t quite as bad as they had been. They had been following fellows all the way to the gate. . . on the 11-7 shift whenever they got off at night there was a row of houses that Black people stayed just beyond the plant and down that street was a dead street and usually when you come out of the gate, if the police weren' ; t coming down the street, they were coming from another direction for some employees, and they were intimidated by the police. HUNTLEY: What plant was this? PRICE: This was Alabama Cement and Tile owned by McCullough Industries. HUNTLEY: Okay. Why would. . . why were they harassing workers at that point? PRICE: I don' ; t know all the answers to the question why they were harassing workers, but I do think that they wanted to know where you going if you were away from the plant. Where you were going at that time of night. It appeared to me that Black people didn' ; t have the right to be on the street at that time of night because most time when I went home from work, if I didn' ; t go up the railroad track or drive my car, I was intimated by the police. But, if I drove my car, I might miss them. But if I walked, and went up the street, most likely I run into the police before I get home and if I ran into the police before I' ; d gotten home, they would stop me and ask questions. HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested? PRICE: No. HUNTLEY: Were you a member of any community organizations? PRICE: Not at that particular time I wasn' ; t. HUNTLEY: But later you would get involved in a number of organizations? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: Let me ask you, how and why did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement? PRICE: Well, when I was in the armed forces, I had a battery commander who was a captain. . . was a lawyer in civilian life and he was a captain in the armed forces. And, he looked over the payroll and found that we were drawing maybe $9 or $10 a month and he felt that that was too much money. . . we didn' ; t need that much money, so he called a formation and asked did anybody want to join the NAACP. He said it was two dollars to join the NAACP and when he got through explaining, a fellow by the name of Willie J. Whitings, walked out of the line and I walked out and he said " ; all you want to join the NAACP, go to my office and I' ; ll write you up and give you a card, so he. . . HUNTLEY: Is this a White officer or a Black officer? PRICE: Black officer. He wrote us up and gave a card to become a member of the NAACP and that happened in 1944 overseas. HUNTLEY: You said that he looked at the payroll and you were making $10 a. . . PRICE: Some were making $10, some were making more, but he didn' ; t think that we should get that much money, so he felt like that we' ; d give two dollars of that to the NAACP because they were fighting the fight back in the United States of America. They' ; d had some race riots in Georgia and Detroit and around, and the NAACP was fighting because people were being put in jail unjustified. HUNTLEY: So, $10 a week was. . . PRICE: $10 a month. HUNTLEY: A month. . . was big money at that time? PRICE: Well, he thought it was because we were overseas and when you get overseas in the armed forces, some of the things that you have to buy in the United States of America such as soap, tooth powder and the things that a person needs, the government gives them to you. So, you really don' ; t have a lot to spend the money for unless you' ; re in a place where you can go to town where the ladies are, and we weren' ; t right where the ladies were. . . we were out in the jungles, so he decided that we were drawing too much money. That caused me to get involved in it. HUNTLEY: So, how many of you joined the NAACP at that time? PRICE: It was about 20 joined the NAACP at that time. HUNTLEY: So, that was your first encounter with a civil rights organization? PRICE: First encounter. HUNTLEY: Okay, but what did you do as a result of being a member while you were in the service? PRICE: Wasn' ; t anything I could do until I got back out of the service. And, when I got back out of the service, I joined. . . there was a NAACP chapter in Titusville, headed by Rev. T. L. Lane, so when I got out of the service, I joined that chapter and started working with that chapter. HUNTLEY: What year did you get out of the service? PRICE: Oh. . . ' ; 47. HUNTLEY: So, from ' ; 47 to ' ; 56, you were actively involved with the NAACP? PRICE: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: What did you do? PRICE: Well, we went to meetings and we had a situation in Birmingham where. . . a policeman' ; s wife got in a parking place where a Black that worked at ACIPCO by the name of Parker and was having some meetings, so what happened is that, I guess she told her husband and the police arrested Parker and. . . HUNTLEY: He was. . . Parker was. . . they had an argument about a parking spot? PRICE: A parking space. And. . . they arrested Parker and put him in jail and sometime during that night or the next night, they went to jail and beat Parker up in jail. And the NAACP got on to that particular case and I became directly involved. And, at the same time, there were some houses being bombed on Center Street all the way up from maybe 11th Avenue up to the top of the Center Street hill there, 3 or 4 houses had been bombed and then the NAACP was all the legal organization that we had in this town at that particular time to fight for the victims. HUNTLEY: Why were those homes being bombed at that time? PRICE: All I can say is the perpetrators bombed them because they didn' ; t want Black people to live in that community. HUNTLEY: That was that White community that was turning. . . that Black folk had started to move into. PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: So, those homes that Blacks were moving into were being bombed? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: So, this is actually prior to the development of the Alabama Christian Movement? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: In 1956 then, the NAACP is outlawed from operating in the state, what happens then? PRICE: When the NAACP was outlawed in ' ; 56, John Patterson was the attorney general of the State of Alabama, then the leaders got together and organized an organization called the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. We met at Smith and Gaston Funeral Home and we discussed it and we discussed it again. We got a charter and we set a meeting to be at Sardis Baptist Church on June 5, 1956 and there was born the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. So, we started to fighting segregation then and I was involved in any number of things. HUNTLEY: Were you involved in the very first meetings of the movement? PRICE: Very first meetings that they had on June 5 at Sardis Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: What was your role? PRICE: I was just...we were just getting it organized then. The organization had not been set up and the officers had to be appointed and elected and after the officers was appointed and elected, then we got a chance to go. It was about three meetings before we got all the officers appointed. HUNTLEY: Did you serve in any official capacity? Were you an officer at the time? PRICE: Yeah, I was a board member. HUNTLEY: So, you attending then, the mass meetings regularly? PRICE: Yeah, regularly. HUNTLEY: How would you describe the typical mass meeting? PRICE: Well, a typical mass meeting were as many people that probably could get into a church at that particular time. We discussed the problems of Black people, what we had to do because it was crucial in this town at that particular time. Blacks could not hardly vote, it was hardly possible for Black people to vote. It was hardly possible for Black people to live in certain communities without their houses being bombed. It was hardly possible for Black people to have a nice automobile up and down the street without being intimidated by the policemen. And, at the same time, we. . . as we went on. . .Bethel Baptist Church was bombed and later on, after Bethel Baptist Church was bombed, Sixteenth Street Church was bombed as we went along. And then. . . before then, we had to set up clinics, so what we did was try to get. . . there was a very few people registered to vote at that particular time and it was so hard for people to become registered until. . . we had to set up a way to teach them and we had a questionnaire of about maybe 50 or 45 questions. Probably took a college graduate to pass. . . the vote. . . to be registered. And, so many people were being turned down. . . not all of them on education, because they didn' ; t ask legal questions. . . we had all the answers to the legal questions, but they asked questions that you probably wouldn' ; t know. For instance, they asked women " ; when was your first child born" ; and then they asked her when did she get married. Then, they asked women, " ; you sure all them children your husband' ; s children?" ; And they turn them around on more questions. And, we kept records on those that they turned down and we--over a period of maybe three years, we' ; d had something like 40,000 folks was turned down by the Board of Registrars. HUNTLEY: Was this as a result of your work with the NAACP or the Alabama Christian Movement? PRICE: This was the Alabama Christian Movement, but the NAACP led me up to this. NAACP was out at this time. HUNTLEY: I notice that you are credited with being responsible for over 17,000 people. . . PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: Being registered as voters and this is during the Alabama Christian Movement period. PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: That' ; s impressive. At the meetings. . . were Birmingham police present? PRICE: Yes. At all meetings, Birmingham police were present. HUNTLEY: What was their purpose there? PRICE: To watch and to see and to hear what was going on. HUNTLEY: And, were they welcomed, or. . . PRICE: Yeah, we welcomed them. We thought they shouldn' ; t have been there. A lot of times we made statements as to whether they should have been somewhere else trying to catch some crook ' ; cause we were Christian people trying to get our rights and freedom, but they didn' ; t pay any attention. They were at the meeting on time every Monday night. Nobody did anything to them. They enjoyed it so they got where they laughed, but they realized that they were in the wrong place and they were in the wrong place watching God' ; s people. HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate? PRICE: Yeah, one or two. HUNTLEY: Did any of them go to jail? You were never arrested, right? PRICE: Well, I stayed out for a purpose. Being a board member, we had to look out for others. I would have been arrested like all the rest of them, but I was out for a purpose, to help get others out of jail and what have you. HUNTLEY: Okay. Were you one of those that helped to raise funds? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: Did you ever do any speaking in Birmingham or outside of Birmingham for the purpose of raising funds. PRICE: Not too much speaking for raising funds, but for the event of the Civil Rights Movement, I spoke all the time. I spoke at the mass meetings every Monday night for years. HUNTLEY: Okay. How did other members of your family react to your participation? The level of involvement that you had in the movement?PRICE: Well, when I first got started, I got a little kick from my family. They said a few things to me that I didn' ; t think too much of because they didn' ; t quite understand what was going on and what was involved. So, I tried to explain to my family, but they didn' ; t accept all I said. They saw they weren' ; t going to stop me, so they quit talking to me about it. So, I just kept on. . . so finally, they started coming in one by one. I finally got them all into the movement. HUNTLEY: So everybody eventually would get involved as a result of your involvement? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: Tell me about some of the incidents that you may have witnessed, the kinds of things that were happening during this time. PRICE: Well, an incident happened. The Shuttlesworth children were on a bus coming to Birmingham and they were pulled off the bus in Gadsden, Alabama and put in jail and we formed a. . . we knew that it' ; s a possibility it wouldn' ; t be safe for one or two people to go to Gadsden to try to get the children out. So, we had a little convoy, 5 or 6 cars and I was driving a car that belonged to Mr. Colonel Stone Johnson and we went to Gadsden. I had the papers ; bonds to get the children out of jail but when I got to Gadsden, Alabama, it was denied for me to get the children out of jail. So I couldn' ; t get the children out of jail because they wouldn' ; t accept the bonds. They turned the bonds down even though they were signed by responsible people and people in authority. But, the officials in Gadsden wouldn' ; t accept this. So we had to come back to Birmingham without the children and go back at another time to get the children. HUNTLEY: Why were they arrested? PRICE: Because they refused to give up their seats to somebody on the bus. HUNTLEY: In other words, they were sitting. . . toward the front and wouldn' ; t give their seats up for Whites that had gotten on the bus? PRICE: Yes, that' ; s correct. HUNTLEY: How many children were there and what were their ages? PRICE: Oh they were young, they ran from maybe from 13 to about 17 years old. HUNTLEY: What happened, did you eventually go back and you. . . PRICE: Yeah, another group went back and they released them, but they had to do some work and had to get some lawyers and going to a few things in order to get them out of jail. HUNTLEY: Was it a fact that they had to get a bondsman from Gadsden rather than using a bondsman from Birmingham? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: So they were really trying to get business for their own people, in their own town in. . . and would not recognize what the bondsperson from Birmingham, is that correct? PRICE: That is part of the truth, but I don' ; t think it' ; s altogether true because after all, Birmingham is not a long ways from Gadsden, Alabama. So they could have accepted the bond since it was the State of Alabama. If it had been another state, I might have went along with them doing it for that purpose, but being this close to Birmingham, I don' ; t accept it. I think that they could have let us have the children. It was some ill will involved why they didn' ; t let us have them. HUNTLEY: Absolutely. What church were you a member of? PRICE: New Hope Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: New Hope. Was your church involved. . . your church or your pastor involved with the movement? PRICE: Part of them. A few. . . quite a few members at our church were involved and my pastor was also, and his wife. HUNTLEY: So, then, he really didn' ; t have any--any difficulty because there were other pastors who were not involved, is that correct? PRICE: Sure, there were a lot of pastors that were not involved. HUNTLEY: So your church then, being involved, that encouraged your minister to be involved and I' ; m assuming that you were partly responsible for that as a leader in your church. Were you a deacon in your church? PRICE: No, I wasn' ; t a deacon at that time. HUNTLEY: Okay. PRICE: My pastor was a brilliant man and when he came he talked about registering voting oh. . . when I joined the church, after I got out of the Army, I was a member of the church before I went, but after being away a number of years, I had to rejoin the church when I got out the Army. And, he was from Atlanta, Georgia and that was part of his talk, registering and voting. So, there was no problem to get Rev. involved. I heard him say some things that I respect him really high for. He' ; d take the money out of his own pocket and had a clinic at New Hope Baptist Church for the members and other people to come in and learn how to go down and register and vote. At that particular time, we had some members in New Hope Church was in age, something like 50, 60 years old and they went down to vote and we had a poll tax in the City of Birmingham and they had to pay poll tax from the age they were 21 up to 56 or 60 or 70 years of age. Some of them paid $30 and $40 back poll tax before they could vote in that church. And, the chairman of the deacon board was an elderly man, pretty close to 70 years old, if not that, and he paid his poll tax and they charged him poll taxes from 21 years to 70 years before he had the privilege to vote. And, there were more than him. Deacon Cliff Watkins, after Mr. Ben Grisby passed on, Deacon Cliff Watkins became the chairman of the deacon board. When he became the chairman of the deacon board, he. . . he went down and registered and had to pay a lot of money. Mr. C. C. Jones, was a deacon at New Hope and had been there a long time. I understand he paid $30 some dollars and just on goes the story. Whereas, at the Board of Registrars, make you pay all that back tax before they let Blacks vote. HUNTLEY: Who is your minister at that time? PRICE: Rev. Herman Stone. HUNTLEY: Rev. Herman Stone. You suggested that the issue, some of the issues that were involved with the movement at the time were police harassment, voter registration actually, the kids that you talk about with Rev. Shuttlesworth, of course the schools were an issue. Were there other issues that the Movement dealt with that you were remember vividly? PRICE: Oh yeah. HUNTLEY: What about the buses? Did you have any activity. . .PRICE: Yeah, riding the buses in the City of Birmingham. I was downtown one day not too long after the Supreme Court handed down the decision that the buses were integrated. You know, in the segregated days, you rode the bus in the back of the bus and it made no difference how crowded the bus was with Blacks, they didn' ; t let but so many Blacks ride--they put a board there and the Blacks could not ride up front. They had to stand in the back. But then after the Supreme Court ruled on the bus, I was downtown and caught the bus and when I caught the bus, I sat in the White section where Whites had been sitting just on the bus. Didn' ; t many people sit down behind me, but when I got where I was supposed to get off at, the bus driver didn' ; t let me off, so we went another block. So, I got out and took my pencil and paper and took the number of the bus and his number, he was kind of nasty about it. It wasn' ; t a law then. We had to go and negotiate the buses were. . .the bus drivers were still doing the same thing now, as they doing in the segregation days, not allowing people. . . they couldn' ; t put the boards in the buses, but they were being nasty right on for a while. We had to go to Tennessee and get some White students from a school in Tennessee and bring them to Birmingham and put in the back of the buses in order to try to make it totally integrated. HUNTLEY: So, you actually solicited assistance from outside of Birmingham? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: From young White students who would actually sit in the back and Blacks would sit in the front? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: What was the reaction then to. . . of the bus drivers? PRICE: The bus drivers didn' ; t become nice until the Alabama Christian Movement board meeting met with the bus company and the City of Birmingham, the city attorney and the bus company and told the bus company that. . . what the bus drivers were doing. So the bus company said that they would tell the bus drivers to just drive the bus, don' ; t have any fear with the passengers. Then, the stuff began to let up, but before then, they were not actually harassing, but they were making inconvenient for the passengers. And even in the segregated days, it was terrible. It was almost unbearable in the segregated days. Where sometimes if the bus was crowded, you had to go into the back door of the bus. Couldn' ; t even go in the front door. . . and stand up wherever you had to go to and get off not having the privilege to sit down even though there were seats available that you could sit down. The bus driver was just too nasty to move the board, so you had to stand up until you got where you were going. HUNTLEY: Is it true that you' ; d actually have Black people standing up on the bus and many times there were few Whites on the bus, but in order to get off, even though you' ; re standing in front of the back door, you had to walk back through all of the people and get off the bus rather than being able to get off on the front? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: That' ; s. . . those were some tough times. PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: Were you associated with Rev. Shuttlesworth when he went to integrate Phillips High School? PRICE: No, I was working that day. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about that time? PRICE: Oh, they beat him up and Rev. Abraham Woods drove the car from the scene. Rev. Phifer drove the car to the scene. Rev. Phifer was, at that time, the second vice president of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights, so he drove Rev. Shuttlesworth to Phillips High School. We had to plan it, but I had to work and I couldn' ; t get off. If I could have gotten off, I would have been there. I got off that afternoon and they had taken Rev. Shuttlesworth home because he was beaten up. The perpetrators were around with rocks and cans in their hands and there were people from my family and friends that I know, were there to testify to what the perpetrators did when Rev. Shuttlesworth got out of the car. . . they crowded around and beat him up. . . and they did beat him up. HUNTLEY: And, they actually stabbed his wife. . . PRICE: Yeah and said all kinds of nasty words. The language was bad that the perpetrators used because they used the word nigger and there was no such thing as a nigger, that' ; s just what they wanted to use to disgrace Black people. HUNTLEY: It' ; s ironic that today, Phillips High School is 99.9% Black. PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: 1961. . . Bull Conner made a statement because there were Freedom Riders that were going through the south and he was. . . he suggested that the Freedom Riders had more sense than to come to Birmingham. Of course, the Freedom Riders did come into Birmingham. Were you involved in that at all, because I know there were those who left here and went to Anniston to help bring people down? Did you have any involvement in. PRICE: Not in the Freedom Rides because I was working during the time. They came around 11:00 o' ; clock that day and I had a job and I wasn' ; t able to be involved, but I know about it. HUNTLEY: In ' ; 62, Miles College students got involved in a Selective Buying Campaign. Are you familiar with that? PRICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me how that was developed? PRICE: Well, they came to the Movement. We had a young people' ; s division in the Movement and in the Movement we had a director as to what we did from day and from time to time as to whether we would stage any buying campaign or whatever it might be, we were directed from the Movement. So, Miles College students--a buying campaign by going down in the city to buy different products at different places. At that particular time, there were places in the stores that Blacks . . . were segregated. I bought the better-quality shoes. . . not because I was able to buy them, but because I didn' ; t want to be segregated. The stores that sold the lesser quality shoes, had a special place for you to sit down. They' ; d take you back into the store where nobody would be, unless it' ; d be one or two Blacks. All the Whites would be up front where you could buy a pair of shoes at a reasonable price. But, where you had to pay right smart of money for the shoes, then they weren' ; t so segregated. You could sit down wherever anybody else sat. That caused me to pay a little bit more money for my shoes, because I didn' ; t want to go back there. And, two or three stores I went into, they' ; d carry you back in the back to sit you down to try on a pair of shoes, and I didn' ; t like that. HUNTLEY: Do you remember what stores those were? PRICE: Oh yeah Regal Shoe Store, Flagg Brothers Shoe Store and Bob Young' ; s Shoe Store. HUNTLEY: Was Odum, Bowers & ; White one of those that. . . PRICE: No. HUNTLEY: You could go into that one, right? PRICE: You could go in and sit down where you wanted to. HUNTLEY: ' ; 63, of course, with the demonstrations in April and May. . . PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: What do you remember most about that period? PRICE: Well, we marched to the city jail on Sunday and they would have the hose pipes and water and prayed and some of the preachers asked them to. . . we didn' ; t want to go any further, just up to the jail to pray and they refused to let us go. So, some started walking off and all of us walked off and we went on to the jail. But, the fire department was out there with hose pipes to keep us from going to the jail, just to pray. HUNTLEY: Were you ever among any of the marchers when they turned the hoses on and turned the dogs loose? PRICE: I was with all of that. HUNTLEY: Is that right? PRICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you just sort of explain what that was like ; facing the dogs and the hoses? PRICE: Facing. . . well we had a lot of children and vicious dogs. . . German police dogs, and the hose pipes were strong that they turned on. . . on any number of people. I might say it might run into a thousand people. . . where they were children and knocked children down in the street and, at the same time, sicced the dogs on the people and the dogs had--and the people had to fight the dogs off. But, they didn' ; t have anything to fight the dogs with. But, at the same time, people was somewhat devastated because of the fire hoses and because of the dogs. The police did not do anything to keep the dogs off the people, nor did the fire department turn the water off. They were doing this to run the people. . . it was a lot of ill will. It was a tragic situation in Birmingham at that time. HUNTLEY: Did this dissuade people from getting involved with the Movement? PRICE: No, it increased people getting involved. Instead of driving people from the Movement, people came more and more and more. HUNTLEY: Were you ever involved in any. . . any of the Movement outside of Birmingham? PRICE: Yeah, I went to Selma and marched a little, but I didn' ; t make the whole trip, but I went and marched some. HUNTLEY: Were there ever any times when you. . . well, were you associated closely with Dr. King? PRICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: What was your relationship? PRICE: Just a good friend. Dr. King sent for me to come to Montgomery, Alabama. I am the person that came up with the ten reasons why Black people should vote and he looked at it and he thought it was very good, so he sent to call Rev. Shuttles worth and told him to tell me or to bring me to Montgomery---he wanted to talk with me. So, Rev. Shuttles worth and Rev. Gardner and Rev. Charles Billups and Mrs. Lola Hendricks and myself went to Montgomery to Dr. Martin Luther King' ; s establishment. He had an office there. We discussed the ten reasons why Black people should vote. Dr. King became a good friend of mine during the civil rights struggle. We discussed a lot of things and even during the demonstrations here in Birmingham, we sat down at the old Smith and Gaston building maybe until 12, 1 and 2 o' ; clock in the morning deciding what to do for Birmingham, because we had 3,000 people in jail and we had run out of money and so we got $50,000 from SCLC and at that particular time, Rev. Ralph David Abernathy was the treasurer and he give us a check for $50,000 to help us get some of the people out of jail, but that wasn' ; t a drop in the bucket. We couldn' ; t get the people out of jail with $50,000 because the bonds were $2,000 for children, so we had to go to Atlanta and get a federal judge to hand down a decree and order they turn the children loose and let them go back to school. So, we put a lawyer on the plane and sent him to Atlanta and filed the case in Atlanta with. . . in the 5th Circuit Appeals Court. What had happened in Birmingham and he sent an order through the federal judge that Judge Glenn was the federal judge at that particular time. . . an ordered him to put the children back in school--that' ; s how we got them out of jail, most of them. HUNTLEY: There were efforts made by individuals here in Birmingham to assist people in other parts of the country when they had difficulty where civil rights were concerned. Were you involved in any of that? PRICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: What were you involved in? PRICE: I went to Virginia to. . . they shut down the schools in Virginia and wanted to charge the people $20 per child per week and some Black people had 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10 children and making $30 maybe $40 dollars a week at the most and they couldn' ; t afford it and it devastated the whole city of Norfolk, Virginia. We went to try to help and see what we could do to give them some aid as what should be done in the city in Virginia. HUNTLEY: You are suggesting they were closing the public school system? PRICE: They closed the public school system down. HUNTLEY: And, establishing. . . PRICE: Private schools. HUNTLEY: And, they would allow Blacks to attend those private schools? PRICE: If they could pay. HUNTLEY: If they could afford it. So, you and others from here. . . was this with Dr. King or. . . or was this. . . PRICE: Dr. King was in the hospital at that time. . . where a woman had stabbed him in the chest with a letter opener. So, the other top officials took over. Dr. C. K. Steele was vice president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. Dr. Ralph David Abernathy was treasurer of SCLC and Rev. Shuttles worth was a board member. . . I don' ; t know exactly what his position was, but in Norfolk, Virginia, he' ; d taken over and we discussed what needed to be done so we went out on the school grounds and offered an ultimatum to the city and the press covered this and we prayed and there were some perpetrators all around. We didn' ; t know exactly what the perpetrators would do, but when we got through praying, then we marched away. But, we worked with the people that were in charge of the movement in that city to do the best that we possibly could to help them figure out what should be done. HUNTLEY: On the local scene, what benefits did you, your family and community realize as a result of the Movement? PRICE: I don' ; t really think we benefited any more from the fact that there was a chance for young people and there was a chance for the coming generations. That what we went through, they wouldn' ; t have to go through and make a better place for all of us to live. I think that' ; s all we actually profited from it. HUNTLEY: So you think that. . . it became a better place to live as a result of the Movement? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: If you were in control of the Movement and could go back and change some things, what would you change? PRICE: I don' ; t think I would change anything much different from what actually happened. If I was in control of the Movement and could go back, I think at that particular time, what went on and how it went on. . . it wasn' ; t a thing that you could plan from year to year and from month to month. You had to deal with it as it came up. It was a day-to-day thing. What came up today, you deal with today. What came up tomorrow, you' ; d deal with tomorrow. If it would be that way now, you would probably have to deal with it the same way. The opposition was so great at that particular time, and we didn' ; t have money that we should have had, but we had to take what we did have. . . the lawyers weren' ; t too lenient with us, so we had to. . . a lot of things that we would have done. . . that we couldn' ; t do because of lack of finances, so right now, if I had to go back, I probably would have to do it the same way. Because, in a civil rights struggle, what happened today may not happen tomorrow, so you have to deal with it a different way. So, I think that a lot of people felt that we should have had a course to travel, but we couldn' ; t have a course to travel. The problem was that things came up differently. There were plans to do this, plans to do that. Whatever you do, somebody knew something just the opposite. You do something, somebody do something just the opposite and this kind of thing kept us always planning, always planning. . . you never knew directly what you would do. HUNTLEY: Some people would say that the Movement died with Dr. King in 1968 and there is no movement going on today. How would you react to that? PRICE: I think that' ; s wrong. There is a movement going on today. A lot of people wouldn' ; t be receiving what they' ; re receiving, and a lot of people wouldn' ; t be living like they are living and the circumstances of life wouldn' ; t be. . . with the dark skinned people and a lot of Whites if there was not a Movement in this country ; even today. HUNTLEY: There' ; s an attack now on affirmative action. PRICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: How do you view that? PRICE: Well, we need affirmative action. There might be some parts in affirmative action that could be eliminated, but not affirmative action. Affirmative action has brought us a long way. If it had not been for affirmative action, there are a lot of things that exist today that would not exist and a lot of jobs that people have, they would not have if it had not been for affirmative action. It might be that people are disagreeing with the whole affirmative action. There might be some parts that they need to cut out or eliminate or revise. There' ; s a possibility that affirmative action could be revised and do a better job than it' ; s doing now. But you still need affirmative action. HUNTLEY: Well, how would you assess the Birmingham Movement? How successful was it? What were the accomplishments? PRICE: The accomplishments of the Birmingham Movement were fine. We didn' ; t accomplish all the things that we maybe should have. . . I know we didn' ; t accomplish all the things we wanted to accomplish. But we accomplished a lot in the process. There a lot of things that need to be accomplished now that we didn' ; t accomplish then and probably we couldn' ; t have accomplished then, but the Birmingham Movement was a great asset to Birmingham and to underprivileged people. HUNTLEY: I' ; ve heard at least one student of those days suggest that Birmingham, particularly the school system, was integrated by the same mentality that segregated the school system. They didn' ; t say the same people, but the same mentality. How would you react to that? PRICE: I don' ; t agree with that because Black people weren' ; t in a position to segregate nor integrate. White people were in a position to segregate the schools. They were in a position to integrate the schools. Now, all the mentality, I have no knowledge of it, but we know at that particular time that we could only apply ; ask for the law to be handed down. The people that was in a position to hand down the law were Whites. The people that segregated the schools were Whites. HUNTLEY: What was the result of the integration of schools in terms of Black schools? How did the integration affect Black schools? PRICE: I don' ; t think it did a whole lot to affect Black schools. It might. . . I hope improve Black students because I' ; m not familiar with all the things they taught at that particular time, because I wasn' ; t a member of the board of education, and I still don' ; t know. But, at least it gave children an opportunity to go to schools closer than a lot of kids that probably weren' ; t able to go to these one or two schools that they had in Birmingham by integrating the schools that put a high school near wherever Black children lived and they could attend that school which made it better on the parent' ; s budget and made it better on the child and the child had a better opportunity of learning because he could be. . . in most instance exposed to some knowledge that he wasn' ; t exposed to in the beginning. And, being exposed to knowledge would give you a better opportunity to learn, so I think maybe integration did quite a bit for Blacks by giving them a better opportunity to learn by exposing them to a different type of knowledge. HUNTLEY: Okay. Is there anything else that you' ; d like to add that we hadn' ; t dealt with today? We' ; ve covered a lot of ground. Is there anything that I have not asked that you would like to. . . PRICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: Okay. PRICE: I would like to say that during that struggle, we had to take people to the vote of registrars and they' ; d be turned down and couldn' ; t vote and couldn' ; t register and we had to set up clinics throughout the city to teach our people how to register. And, after teaching them how to register, when they registered, come back to the clinic and teach them how to vote because during that period of time, I remember that in general elections you have maybe, at that time, a 100 or 135 people running for 30 offices or 25 offices and you had to pick over 100 and something people to choose 25 people. And, if you vote, pull the lever by the wrong person' ; s name, the vote wouldn' ; t count and you used machines then and a lot of people wasn' ; t so familiar with machines. They allowed you three minutes in the machine and I' ; ve been in the line many times when there were other members of other races being in the machines 10 and 15 minutes, nobody say nothing. But when Blacks were in the machine, over three minutes, somebody was telling them they were spending too much time and I have spoke myself to the pollers at the polling place in the precinct, give them a little bit more time, you' ; re a little unfair and sometime they would and sometime they wouldn' ; t. This was a handicap to Black people in order to cast their ballot because you have to be very good to select 30 folks out of a 135 people voting. Sometime we had 6 to 10 folks. I remember in the State of Alabama, 10 folk ran for governor of the State of Alabama and 10 for lieutenant governor and six for one particular job. . . one particular position. Maybe five for another. During this, you' ; d select maybe 25 positions that people going to public office and you have only three minutes to do this and Blacks were deprived of the right of staying in the polls over three minutes and there were others from other races could stay in there maybe 12, 14 minutes and sometimes the lines, at that particular time, would be 3 or 4 lines, depends on how machines you had and if you had 10 machines, and that' ; s in a major election, the building where you would be full of people, and on the outside, you' ; d have maybe a line worth 2 or 3 around the corner. So, the polls would have to be opened to 9 and 10 o' ; clock to get all the folks over. They closed the doors at 7 o' ; clock and if all is not in the building at 7 o' ; clock, the rest don' ; t get a chance to register. That has happened to Black folks, as well as Whites, mostly Blacks. HUNTLEY: Last year, two years ago as we viewed South Africa voting for the first time, did that remind you at all of Birmingham? PRICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: The same kinds of lines that existed probably even larger lines in South Africa? PRICE: And much more difficult. They were voting with a ballot you push in a hole, just mark it with a pencil in South Africa and push it in a box, but in Birmingham, Alabama you had a machine sitting over there that had been programmed with people' ; s names on it and you had to look on that machine and find the person' ; s name that you was looking for and pull the lever by that name which took much more time to do it. And, you had to read real fast. You couldn' ; t hardly make any mistakes, ' ; cause if you made any mistakes, then the ballot wouldn' ; t count. So, you would lose that ballot. We' ; d lose some ballots during that time. That was somewhat unfair to a lot of voters and especially to Blacks too. HUNTLEY: And that has changed as a result of the kinds of protests that were made during that particular time. PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to. . . PRICE: Yes. The people that were turned down for voting, we noticed in Alabama there was a poll tax imposed on people, I said a little about it, but I want to say a little more about it. The poll taxes that was imposed. . . if you were pulled and didn' ; t have the money to pay your poll tax for a certain time of the year, then you didn' ; t get a chance to vote. Your poll tax had a deadline to it and if you didn' ; t pay the poll tax by the deadline, then you couldn' ; t vote that year. This was. . . poll taxes was payable every year whether there was an election or not. But, then poll taxes are $1.50 to civilians that had no military and poll tax was to poor, a lot of times couldn' ; t afford to pay the money for poll tax because food was a problem, housing was a problem, so this way, a lot of poor people didn' ; t get a chance to even register to vote and even if they registered they couldn' ; t pay the poll tax, they still couldn' ; t vote. HUNTLEY: What was the purpose of the poll tax? PRICE: I don' ; t know exactly what the state used it for, but they charged people to vote that' ; s all I can say. I wouldn' ; t be correct, because I don' ; t know the voter registrars receive the poll taxes, but what they used it for, I have no knowledge of it. HUNTLEY: Some have suggested that it was used to keep Black people from voting because there were many who could not afford it. PRICE: It might have been, but I can' ; t say for definitely it was. HUNTLEY: Okay. Well, I certainly appreciate your taking your time out of your busy schedule and coming and talk with us today, because what you have done for us, you' ; ve helped us to put another piece of the puzzle together. PRICE: Thank you. HUNTLEY: And, we thank you for that time and you will be hearing from us again. PRICE: I appreciate you' ; re having me. HUNTLEY: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=GPrice1995.xml GPrice1995.xml
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George Price
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George Price discusses working closely with Dr. King and Reverend Shuttlesworth, including helping to found ACMHR. His work focused largely on labor unions and voter registration.
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19950324P
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
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1995-03-24
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video
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
Interviewee
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Rosa Washington
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RWashington1995.xml
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Bull Conner
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5.4 April 14, 1995 Rosa Washington 19950414W 0:55:03 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Freedom Rides, 1961 NAACP Bull Conner Rosa Washington Horace Huntley Video 1:|1(2)|18(13)|40(2)|63(2)|77(15)|97(5)|115(12)|135(15)|154(9)|176(2)|188(14)|201(9)|214(9)|225(10)|247(6)|265(4)|280(10)|292(4)|310(4)|323(13)|334(16)|346(17)|363(7)|373(9)|389(2)|416(10)|429(1)|441(12)|453(1)|473(3)|486(15)|500(2)|511(7)|540(13)|560(4)|575(8)|588(3)|607(4)|619(1)|632(1)|644(13)|656(10)|674(5)|692(16)|714(1)|724(15)|737(14)|750(13)|775(2)|791(8)|805(6)|817(7)|829(4)|854(10)|884(5) 0 https://youtu.be/A3TaBYit4RU YouTube video English 68 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Rosa P. Washington for the Oral History Project of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Washington is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 92 Background and Family Life Yes ma'am. I just want to start by just getting a little background information. Washington tells how her father was a sharecropper in rural Alabama. African American-agriculture Davenport (Ala.) ; Sharecropper 224 Why Her Family Moved to Birmingham How long did you stay in Davenport? I know you would eventually come to Birmingham. Washington states that she was the reason her father finally decided to move to Birmingham. Racism ; Sharecropper Birmingham, Ala. ; Rural Alabama 429 Educational Journey So what school did you attend? Washington discusses going to school in ACIPCO and attending the largest high school for black people in the world. American Cast Iron Pipe Company ; Segregation Birmingham (Ala.) 625 Experiencing Colorism in High School What area did you concentrate in? Washington recalls experiencing colorism when she auditioned for the school play. Colorism ; Industrial High School Birmingham (Ala.) 896 ACIPCO Community's Relationship with the Birmingham Police Department Can you describe your community? What was ACIPCO like? Washington recalls how the police acted cruelly towards the people in her neighborhood. Police brutality American Cast Iron Pipe Company ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 997 Family Tragedy and Her Work Experience I worked at ______ and trying to get ready, try to save some money to go to college because my father had had a stroke and couldn't send me. Washington recalls how multiple family members died and her work experience at Newberry's. Domestic work ; Pittsburgh (Penn.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Newberry 1438 Being Hired at Greyhound So Mr. Townsend was her boss? Washington tells how her friend got her a job working at the Greyhound bus station. Greyhound buses Birmingham (Ala.) 1552 Incident with Her White Boss at Work They were. Sometimes they jumped my gun and I -- I am an outspoken person if you push me too far. Washington recalls how her boss harassed her for a dime after she used one of his to take the bus. Greyhound buses ; Racism Birmingham (Ala.) 1865 Working as a Maid at Greyhound What were your responsibilities there? Washington states how she cleaned the white and colored waiting rooms at the bus station. African Americans--Segregation ; Greyhound buses Birmingham (Ala.) 1986 Personal Involvement in the Movement What community did you live in at that time? Washington recalls how she joined the NAACP through her church and how she attended mass meetings. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People Birmingham (Ala.) 2101 Memories of the Freedom Riders At the time that you were working at the bus station, in 1961 there was a group of students from the north that came and they were called Freedom Riders. Washington tells how she was working at the Greyhound station when the Freedom Riders came in. 1961 Freedom Rides ; Blacks-segregation Birmingham (Ala.) 2270 Bull Conner and Birmingham Police's Reaction to the Freedom Riders Did you witness any of the attacks? Washington discusses how Conner and the police were very harsh to the Freedom Riders. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Bull Conner Anniston (Ala.) ; Freedom Rides, 1961 2616 Witnessing Police Brutality at the Children's March Did you get any more actively involved in the Movement after you witnessed this at the bus station? Washington recalls how the police reacted cruelly towards the children at the Children's March. 1963 Children's March ; Police brutality-United States Birmingham (Ala.) 2729 Experiencing Racism in the Workplace Did that change as a result of the Freedom Riders? Washington discusses how she experienced racism and sexism when applying for a promotion. Racism ; Sexism Birmingham (Ala.) ; Greyhound buses 3205 Retirement Dinner at The Club And that's where you retired from? Washington recalls how her white boss took her and her husband to The Club for her retirement dinner. Greyhound buses ; The Club Birmingham (Ala.) 3275 Conclusion of Interview Good. Thank you again for coming out. We certainly appreciate it. Interview is concluded. Oral History Rosa Washington discusses living in ACIPCO and being involved with the NAACP. She worked at the Greyhound station when the Freedom Riders came through. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Rosa P. Washington for the Oral History Project of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. Today is April 14, 1995 and we are at Miles College. Thank you Mrs. Washington for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit and talk with us today. WASHINGTON: Thank you. It' ; s a privilege and blessing to do so. HUNTLEY: Yes ma' ; am. I just want to start by just getting a little background information. Tell me, were you born in Birmingham? WASHINGTON: I was born in a little town called Davenport, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Davenport. Where is Davenport, Alabama? WASHINGTON: About 25 miles south of Montgomery. Between Montgomery and... HUNTLEY: Okay. Were both of your parents from that area of the state? WASHINGTON: My father was. But my mother was from a little town called Sandy Ridge. Not too far from Greenville, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Okay. The same direction then? WASHINGTON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Okay. Tell me a little about your parents? WASHINGTON: They were very diligent, hard working people. When they came to Birmingham my daddy rented for a year and said he couldn' ; t get the kind of house he wanted, but he brought the property and built an expensive house with the intention of leaving the south when I started to high school. But his health prevented him from doing that. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about their experiences in Davenport. What did he do in Davenport? WASHINGTON: He was a farmer -- he was a sharecropper farmer and he had three brothers in that area why he hesitated so long to move to Birmingham. Then the youngest brother came to Birmingham and went to work. And he didn' ; t come until I said I wanted to see White men work rather than riding around kicking dirt on them. HUNTLEY: We are going to get to that one. Let me ask you how many brothers and sisters did you have? WASHINGTON: One brother ; 13 years difference in our ages. HUNTLEY: Okay. Are you younger or older? WASHINGTON: Younger. HUNTLEY: You were younger, okay. Tell me about the education of your parents. WASHINGTON: My daddy didn' ; t go any further than the third or fourth grade. And my mother went to the fifth. HUNTLEY: And they were sharecroppers in south Alabama? WASHINGTON: Right. HUNTLEY: How long did you stay in Davenport? I know you would eventually come to Birmingham. Why would your parents decide to come to Birmingham at the time that they did? WASHINGTON: Because my daddy wanted to please me. I told him I didn' ; t want to be on the farm where White men ride around and kick dirt on me. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. How did that happen? WASHINGTON: I was a child playing in a large cotton basket. My parents were hoeing and the owner of the farm came riding by on his big stallion horse and he rode up beside my basket where I was playing and threw candy in the basket to me. And the horse kicked dirt in the basket on me. I became angry, jumped up and turned the basket upside down and went running down the road calling my daddy. And the man was right behind me on the horse and daddy didn' ; t like that. He said " ; Why you chasing her?" ; He said, " ; She didn' ; t want me to give her candy, she poured it out because the horse kicked dirt in her basket." ; And I asked daddy, " ; When are you going to get a job where White folks work and not ride around and kick dirt on me?" ; HUNTLEY: So you didn' ; t think that he was doing any work, he was just riding around harassing you? WASHINGTON: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: And what did your mother say in that regard? WASHINGTON: Well, my mother had always -- had been after him for awhile to leave and come to Birmingham to find work. And when she got up to the area where he was holding me, he locked his arms around me and dropped to his knees. And my mother asked him say, " ; Why you holding that child like that ; and she' ; s screaming and both of you wringing wet with sweat?" ; And he jumped and looked at her as if she dropped out of space. He didn' ; t know who she was. And he just took a deep breath and let me go. And when we got home to dinner, he just kept looking at me and cut his eye at her and look at me again and he said " ; Can you handle the farm at harvesting time? I' ; m going to Birmingham and look for me a job. I don' ; t intend for my girl child (which was me, he was referring to me) to ask me the question that she asked me today." ; And she said, " ; What?" ; He told her " ; Why couldn' ; t I get a job where White folks work and not driving around kicking dirt on me?" ; And she was glad. And she told him " ; Well, don' ; t worry, just don' ; t worry." ; But she felt like getting up hugging me to death. HUNTLEY: As she was ready to leave the farm? WASHINGTON: Yes. She was ready to leave the farm. And when harvesting time come, he came to Birmingham and was fortunate enough to find a job. HUNTLEY: What was his first job in Birmingham, do you remember? WASHINGTON: Working at the ACIPICO plant. HUNTLEY: And how long did he work at ACIPICO? WASHINGTON: That was from ' ; 20 to ' ; 31 when he had a stroke. HUNTLEY: How old were you when you came to Birmingham to live? WASHINGTON: Not quite eight. HUNTLEY: Did you live in ACIPICO at the time? WASHINGTON: Yes. HUNTLEY: So what school did you attend? WASHINGTON: West ACIPICO school. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your school? WASHINGTON: I thought it was fantastic because we had the school building. It wasn' ; t quite large enough for all the classes and the first through the third went to school in a church that was nearby and when, in the later years, I don' ; t remember exactly what year, but there was a Mr. Walker was there and Mr. -- I can' ; t call the man' ; s name now, but anyway they moved -- he was living in a two-story building and when ACIPICO changed and turned the school over to the public school system, he made those men move out of that building and that building was called a domestic science building. They taught you table manners, boys how to escort girls in a building and how to put the chair up to the table and let the girl sit down to eat back up to the table. They taught us to make beds, how to keep house really. It was called a domestic science building. And they taught sewing and some shoe repair. HUNTLEY: So the school was actually owned by ACIPICO initially? WASHINGTON: Yes, at first. HUNTLEY: And then they deeded the school to the Birmingham school system? WASHINGTON: Right. HUNTLEY: What school did you attend after ACIPICO? WASHINGTON: When I finished ACIPICO I went to Lincoln. I guess you would call it a mid school. I went to Lincoln from the 9th through the 10th grade. And then went to Industrial High. HUNTLEY: And Industrial High at that time was termed to be the largest high school in the world for Black folk. That is what was suggested. WASHINGTON: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Industrial High School? WASHINGTON: I thought it was great. Professor Parker was the principal of the school and he always stressed, don' ; t soil these uniforms because the girls wore blue and the boys wore khaki until they got into the 12th grade. And after that the girls had to wear white and the men wore dark suits, blue trousers or a blue suit. HUNTLEY: So you were immaculately dressed? WASHINGTON: Yes. HUNTLEY: At Industrial High? WASHINGTON: Right. HUNTLEY: I know being in an industrial school there were a number of areas that you could sort of concentrate in. What were some of those areas? WASHINGTON: There was dressmaking, beauty culture, carpentry, shoe making and tailoring and printing. HUNTLEY: What area did you concentrate in? WASHINGTON: I was interested in dramatics and I was trying to take dramatics and I had a let down with the dramatics. I was training for the leading lady part -- every part had two persons to see which one would handle it the best. And I was given the part and I was -- Oh, I was so proud the leading lady -- " ; The mistress" ; as it was called. And I would perform before my family, friends on the school grounds. My friends and they would say " ; Rosy, you got it, you got it." ; And Edna Elliot had the -- we had the same part and when I -- we would practice and the teacher said I had done well. Then Edna come up, Edna didn' ; t remember her lines in some instances and said that she wasn' ; t putting enough action in it. And when it was over, Mrs. Wyatt told me, " ; Rosa you performed beautifully, and I admire the way you have learned and studied. But this part is for a White mistress and you are too dark for that part, I' ; ll give it to Edna." ; HUNTLEY: So you lost your part as a result of being too dark? WASHINGTON: And I didn' ; t -- kids now would have thrown a fit on her but I didn' ; t. I picked up my books and I was like that trying to keep from crying and going across the campus to another classroom and I met Mrs. Mahalia Morris and she was very dark. She taught math and she called me ' ; ACIPICO Skinny' ; because I didn' ; t weigh 90 pounds. And she said " ; ACIPICO Skinny, what' ; s wrong with you. You act like you' ; re about to explode?" ; I said, " ; I' ; m all right." ; And she stopped me, she said " ; No, you' ; re not. What is wrong?" ; Then I burst out and went to crying and told her what had been said to me. She said " ; Don' ; t let nobody put you down. Dry your tears." ; She took her handkerchief and wiped my tears. She said " ; Get right in here, get something up here and tell the world to go to hell." ; She said " ; Nobody -- everybody knows I know this book that I carry." ; She was teaching math and algebra. And she said " ; I found an error in this book that the company had to recall when I sent it to them. And I got big bucks for it. And I defy anybody to do more with the teaching of these subjects than I can." ; And said " ; That' ; s what you do. Don' ; t get hurt about your color, God made us all." ; HUNTLEY: How did that experience impact you in your life? WASHINGTON: For awhile, while I was in school and as a youngster I felt put down because for years the lighter people tried to put the darker skin aside. And at that time Parker had more light teachers, light complexion teachers, fair skin than they did darker teachers because they said that' ; s what Professor Parker stressed. HUNTLEY: Were there any other examples of this division based on color at Parker? Were there other kids that were impacted upon in the same way? WASHINGTON: Yeah. Some said they felt it, too. HUNTLEY: What about your majorettes and your various teams? Did they mirror that kind of mentality? WASHINGTON: Somewhat, yes they did. But if you were really good, they had to acknowledge it. HUNTLEY: What grade were you in when that took place? Do you remember? WASHINGTON: I think it' ; s about the 11th grade. HUNTLEY: At that time were you living in ACIPICO? WASHINGTON: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: Can you describe your community? What was ACIPICO like? WASHINGTON: It was the common hardworking people and most of it was rental property. There was some few homeowners on 26th Avenue and further up. But the area where I lived, the alley divided my area from -- separated the White after you passed 29th Avenue or 28th Alley, they were all White. HUNTLEY: So most of the people that lived there worked for ACIPICO? WASHINGTON: Yes, quite a few. HUNTLEY: Were there other occupations that people had in that area? Do you remember? WASHINGTON: No. Some worked at Dickie Clay plant and some worked at Ensley plant. There were a few who had taken less training -- one or two were in that area. HUNTLEY: Did your mother work outside of the home? WASHINGTON: No, she didn' ; t. HUNTLEY: What was your communities relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? WASHINGTON: Oh, wow! Whenever they would come in the neighborhood, if it was next door, you could hear them banging if you were in your bed because they always knocked so severely, so hard. I had been told by some young men that they would just see them on the street and call them to the car. And when they get there they would roll the window and ask them some questions and roll it up where they couldn' ; t get their head out and beat them on the head. HUNTLEY: After you finished Industrial High School, what did you do? WASHINGTON: I worked at and trying to get ready, try to save some money to go to college because my father had had a stroke and he couldn' ; t send me. I met this young man, come down to visit his father from Pittsburgh, and we fell in love. And he told me if " ; I would marry him.. I told him I wanted to go to college. " ; Well, if you marry me, I' ; ll take you back to Pittsburgh and send you to Penn State." ; But, after we were married, he took me up to Penn State nearly every Sunday or Saturday or whatever they had up there for entertainment and he' ; d take me up there. And I told him " ; I' ; m tired of going up sightseeing, I want to go in." ; He said " ; Well, when I can get a better job I' ; ll send you." ; And the second year he was there, he contracted tuberculosis and I didn' ; t get to go to college. At five years of our marriage, he passed and I moved back to Birmingham. My father had passed, my brother had a tragedy in the family and the mother died. The children' ; s mother -- he had five children and I was left to take care of the children. I was home a year and a month and lost my mother in death and I was crushed because so many tragic things had happened in my life. And I went to work. My mother was on welfare and I had to report her death and when I reported it she was only getting $25 dollars a month and they asked me was I working. I said " ; Yes." ; " ; How much do you earn?" ; I said " ; Seven dollars a week." ; " ; Well, that' ; s more than allowed for a family your size." ; So they cut me off. I said " ; I' ; m just keeping my brothers children, they are not my children." ; They said, " ; But you are and you were...we' ; ll have to cut you off and you support the children." ; And that was rough. Six people to be taken care of. HUNTLEY: On seven dollars a week? WASHINGTON: Seven dollars a week. HUNTLEY: Where were you working at the time? WASHINGTON: I was working at Newberry' ; s. HUNTLEY: What did you do at Newberry' ; s? WASHINGTON: I was a maid at Newberry' ; s. There was a dress shop there then. And I worked there and on Monday and Thursday I had to work at the manager' ; s house. And when I worked, they would go party and come in at 1:00 and 2:00 o' ; clock and take me home and I was expected to be at work at the same time at the store as usual. So when the maid quit, she kept trying to get me to work in the house and I told her I had a responsibility that I couldn' ; t do that. I didn' ; t tell her what it was and she kept having me washing back and forth. And she told me that I -- that they let me work at their home when the maid quit and I told her that I couldn' ; t stay as late as I did then. And I asked for more money and she said she couldn' ; t pay any more money because when I worked there, I got three meals a day. Wherein if I was at the store, I had to pay for my lunch and eat my breakfast at home and bring my lunch. So giving me three meals would supply the income. And, they kept working me like that and a friend of the family moved from the farm and I carried her on the job and they made it. She kept her and I kept going and work on Monday and Thursday. So one morning when I got there I was making my breakfast and I told her that I couldn' ; t get there at seven because of my responsibility. I would come at the same time I went to the store and she asked me, after the woman was there about a couple of months. She said " ; Rosa, why is it that Mamie has to be here at 7:00 o' ; clock to get Manny' ; s breakfast to get him off to work and you come in and she has had her breakfast. You show up at 9:00 and you making your breakfast?" ; I said " ; I beg your pardon?" ; I understood her but I wanted to see. And she said -- she repeated it. I said " ; Well, these were your plans. You told me you couldn' ; t pay any more money and three meals would be a supplement of my salary." ; " ; Don' ; t stand there and do your proper talking and bucking your big eyes at me. You got to work with them five youngin' ; s you got there." ; I said " ; if you can show me God Almighty' ; s hand writing on the wall, telling me I got to work for a poor ass Jew like you, I' ; ll be here to hell freeze over." ; And she said something else snazzy to me and I reached for her. I forgot I had put the clothes on soak on a bar stool -- she did not have a washing machine. And I reached for her and water and clothes went all over the place and the girl that was working she said, " ; Don' ; t you do that, what' ; s the matter with you?" ; I said " ; Take your hands off of me. If you hadn' ; t flapped your lips, she wouldn' ; t know what to say to me. Let me get out of here." ; And I grabbed my work clothes and made a dash for the door. And she said " ; You needn' ; t show up at the store." ; I said " ; Who want to show up at the store? I' ; m sick of you Jews." ; And I left. And I had people, I had seventy-five cents between me, heaven, hell and the poor house. And I had to use a dime of that to get to home. When I got to town I used a nickel to call my date and tell him that I could go see Duke Ellington. He was coming to town. And he said, " ; Well, child let me go get my tickets because after 10:00 the tickets go up." ; And I went home. HUNTLEY: And you went to see Duke Ellington? WASHINGTON: I went to see Duke Ellington. And when I waken the next morning I said, " ; My gosh, it' ; s Thursday and I' ; d rather wait until the first of the week and go see about a job." ; So I got the kids their breakfast and I went back to bed. About 11:00 o' ; clock my best friend through the years came. She said " ; Girl, what in the world is wrong with you? I called the store and they say you weren' ; t there. I called the house and the woman almost hung up in my face telling me you weren' ; t there." ; And I told her what had happened. She said " ; Well, God bless you. The Lord takes care of fools and babies. With this heavy responsibility you have, you have walked off of your job. And Mr. Townsend has observed you." ; She was off a half an hour for lunch and I had an hour for lunch and I would walk up there and visit with her on her lunch period. HUNTLEY: So Mr. Townsend was her boss? WASHINGTON: Yes. And he said " ; I admire that girlfriend of yours that comes here. She does not wrestle and tussle and chase the porters. She just stands around and wait until you can talk to her and she is very courteous and polite." ; Because he told me one day, " ; You keep hanging around here, I' ; m going to put you to work and not give you a dime." ; I said " ; Well, we' ; ll see about that." ; And he told her to come get me and see if I would work. I left -- got to the station at 11:00 o' ; clock and they sent me to Dr. Thuss for a physical and he didn' ; t show up until 4:30 to give me an exam, and he told his nurse this has been one hectic day. I am so tired and started to pull of his coat. She said " ; Don' ; t undress yet. Greyhound has someone here." ; He say " ; What' ; s wrong with him." ; She said " ; It' ; s not a he." ; And he said " ; Come here Catherine." ; That was my friend' ; s name. And he said " ; No, she' ; s not Catherine, her name is Rosa and I don' ; t know anything about Rosa." ; And so when I walked in, she told him I was to be there for my physical for them to hire me. He said " ; Stick out your tongue," ; and put that paddle in there and had me say " ; ah" ; and he took my pulse. And he said " ; Do you have a hernia?" ; I said, " ; No." ; " ; Do you have hemorrhoids?" ; I said " ; No." ; He wrote me out the statement that I was hired. He said " ; You go on, if they don' ; t hire you, I will, come back here." ; HUNTLEY: So did they hire you? WASHINGTON: Yes, they hired me. HUNTLEY: And how long were you there? WASHINGTON: Working at Greyhound? HUNTLEY: Yes. WASHINGTON: Thirty-seven years and four months. HUNTLEY: Thirty-seven and four. So they must have been pleased with your work? WASHINGTON: They were. Sometimes they jumped my gun and I -- I am an outspoken person if you push me too far. HUNTLEY: Give me an example of them " ; jumping your gun." ; WASHINGTON: We had a mop pail that you had to push down on the lever and pull up on the mop to wring the mop and it had been broken for about three months and the manager kept promising and promising. So the thing popped loose and hit me on my leg and it was so painful. And, as dark as I am it was just fire red but it didn' ; t break the skin. I went in the office and I told him, " ; Mr. Drennan, look at my leg, what are you going to do, wait until that scrub bucket injure us. We been tying it with a rope and string and whatever and I don' ; t want my leg broken." ; " ; Oh, I just forgot." ; I said " ; Well if you give me the money, I' ; ll walk down to Wimbley & ; Thomas' ; and get a mop bucket." ; So he gave me a twenty dollar bill and I walked down to Wimbley & ; Thomas on Morris Avenue and 20th Street and got the bucket. But I was too Black and proud to walk that far carrying that heavy bucket. I used a dime for trolley fare. When I got back I gave him the receipt for the bucket and counted out the change and I told him I used a dime for transportation. " ; What are you talking about, I didn' ; t authorize you for transportation. That' ; s the company' ; s money." ; I said " ; Well, I' ; ll tell the company that you didn' ; t give us supplies and I had to go get it and I think I' ; m entitled to transportation." ; " ; You going to give me my dime." ; And I turned and walked off. It was so often he would ask me, he would see me working -- give him his dime. And I would just look at him, smile and walk off. So I was cleaning the White lobby, sweeping in the lobby and a White woman' ; s baby was soiled and she asked me to get her some wet paper towels or whatever to clean the baby. When I brought her the soap, wet towels and some dry ones, to clean her baby, she gave me two dimes and a nickel -- tipping me. And I thanked her. He was standing about as far off as that and he called me. He said " ; Rosa, come here." ; When I walked over to him he said, " ; I saw that woman give you two dimes and a nickel. Now give me my dime." ; I said " ; I don' ; t have your dime." ; He said " ; Give me my dime. You owe me a dime where you took out for trolley fare." ; I said " ; I couldn' ; t afford to walk six blocks carrying that heavy bucket and that' ; s why I used the dime." ; " ; Well, what are you talking about? There are hundreds of colored women who would be glad to walk not only six blocks but six miles for the salary you' ; re making." ; I jabbed that broom handle in his chest. I said " ; Well, the first one that comes along, tell her to start sweeping." ; He handed it back to me and got that -- " ; You better get this floor swept." ; So I went on and swept the floors. HUNTLEY: So he didn' ; t bother you about the dime any longer? WASHINGTON: And when I finished sweeping I went in to check the ladies lounge. The cashier, the owner of the restaurant, she came dashing in behind me. She said " ; You better be glad that Mr. Owens is a kindhearted gentleman. A many boss would have fired you with your sassy talk." ; I said " ; If I was slinging hash for you, I guess you would have fired me? Before I let anybody drag me down I would crawl the street on my hands and knees and pick peanuts out of elephant droppings." ; She said " ; Well, Miss Rosa, well, Miss Rosa." ; I said, " ; Thank you." ; And I went on about my business. HUNTLEY: She said " ; Well, Miss Rosa?" ; WASHINGTON: And for the life of her stay there, she referred to me as Miss Rosa. HUNTLEY: Was that unusual for a White woman to say Miss to a Black woman? WASHINGTON: That' ; s right. And a further incident. The Traveler' ; s Aid booth was in the lobby and one day she called me to her and said " ; Rosa, I want to ask you something. You' ; re intelligent and I like to talk with you. Which of your people do you have the most respect for." ; I said, " ; What you say?" ; " ; Which of your people do you have the most respect for, the lighter skin or the darker skin?" ; I said " ; Be they White, Black, mulatto, Indian, Sioux or Crow, the people that do most for humanity are the people that we look up to." ; " ; Thank you, Miss Rosa." ; And I was Miss Rosa to her from then on. HUNTLEY: So you would not back off any of them, right? You didn' ; t take anything from anyone? WASHINGTON: Because my father always told me " ; Whoever you' ; re talking to or whoever is talking to you, look them in the eye. Don' ; t get an itch somewhere or some dirt on your foot and squirming and looking off. Look them in the eye." ; HUNTLEY: What were your responsibilities there. HUNTLEY: I was a maid. I was supposed to take care of the White and Colored waiting rooms. I was supposed to keep the baggage room swept, ticket office swept and take care of the Black waiting room. And the White waiting room they had about six toilets, two wash rooms. Two of them were washrooms where you paid a quarter to go in and you could stay and get washed up in a face bowl. The others there was a face bowl out for all the public. In the colored waiting room, as it was called then, there were seats -- benches with dividers in them. And there was a window I' ; d say about with an opening about two feet square opening. And when there were two armed chairs there, if you ordered food, you ring a bell for food and they would bring the food to the Black passengers and they would sit there and eat. If they were -- if more people ordered they would have to sit on those benches and there was one ticket window exposed to the Black area. There were 3 or 4, I think, on the White side. HUNTLEY: Now, in this period we are talking is a totally segregated society. How did that manifest itself in the bus station? WASHINGTON: There were separate waiting rooms and separate bathrooms, restrooms. And the ticket window faced -- the larger part of it faced the White lobby and this one window would serve the Blacks. And the agents sometimes would just stand there and wait on all that was in the front and not take turns and turn around and wait on those in the window. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in at that time? WASHINGTON: At that time I was living in ACIPICO. HUNTLEY: You' ; re still living in ACIPICO. Did you move from ACIPICO to another community? WASHINGTON: I moved in ' ; 61. HUNTLEY: To what community? WASHINGTON: Where I am now, on Enon Ridge. HUNTLEY: And your community, was it an active community? Did you have community organizations? WASHINGTON: No. HUNTLEY: You did not have any? WASHINGTON: No. HUNTLEY: Were you ever a member of the NAACP? WASHINGTON: Yes, I joined the NAACP through my church. HUNTLEY: Okay. What church were you a member of? WASHINGTON: Thurgood CME Church on the corner of Center Street and 6th Avenue. HUNTLEY: Were you a registered voter? WASHINGTON: Yes. When they allowed us to vote, I registered to vote. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me when did you register to vote and do you remember any incident that took place? Was it very difficult to register to vote? Was it a simple process? WASHINGTON: It was a simple process. We were eligible to vote and we had to go up and register to vote and have questions asked about different political areas. HUNTLEY: Did you ever attend any of the mass meetings of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights? Any of the mass meetings when Dr. King was in town? Or when Shuttlesworth was speaking? WASHINGTON: Yes. Dr. King preached a couple of sermons there at the AOH Church of God that was located on 7th Avenue and 18th Street at that time. HUNTLEY: At the time that you were working at the bus station, in 1961 there was a group of students from the north that came and they were called Freedom Riders. WASHINGTON: Right. HUNTLEY: Were you working the day that they came in? Did you witness what happened as a result of them coming into Birmingham? WASHINGTON: I was sweeping what they called the White waiting room then, facing 19th Street. The entrance to the Black waiting room was facing the back and I was sweeping. And I was nervous and tense because I had heard that they were coming and it was Mother' ; s Day. When I heard the doors -- there were two front entrances. One would let you out and one was supposed to come in. But they both opened at the same time -- they would make a " ; sss" ; sound and when I looked around those Black youth were coming in. Some went in the dining room, some went in the mens room, four went in the ladies room. And when they went in there, the White women rushed out as if a wild animal had come in there. And it was just a trauma. And when the news got back to the manager of the restaurant, he came running in and just like that door is there, there was a window to the baggage room and on each side was a water fountain. He ran, oh, I' ; d say about ten feet passed it, clapped his finger and whirled around and yanked the wiring out of the wall from the fountain so there would be no cool water. And that brought a lump to my throat because that meant no cool water for White or Black. Then he rushed down to the restaurant and when he got there the Blacks were in there, he tried to get them out. And he had a worker stand at the door and not let anymore in and those that were in there were trying to order food. He demanded that the workers remove the food from the steam table and leave menus out for the Whites. That brought tears because Black and White hands prepared the food, Black and White hands were removing the food. Yet, Black and White could not sit in the same room and eat the food. HUNTLEY: Were there both Black and White students that came in on the buses or was it just Black? WASHINGTON: I didn' ; t see anything but Black, but somebody told me there was some Whites with them. HUNTLEY: This same day there were those -- there were some that were attacked? WASHINGTON: Right. HUNTLEY: Did you witness any of the attacks? WASHINGTON: No I did not. Because the bus was set afire in Anniston and Bull Conner, the commissioner form of government we had, he was the commissioner and the news was broadcasting about the Freedom Riders coming and he went to the city limit line and waited for it. When they got there he boarded -- flagged the bus, and boarded the bus and told them not to come into Birmingham -- they weren' ; t wanted here. And they told him they would be back. He had a regiment of policemen with him. But they turned around and said they would come back. And then Bull Conner brought his regiment to the bus station. They were out on the loading zone where the buses come in. And they were cursing and saying ugly things about what was going to happen when the damn niggers get here. And I was tense and afraid because you don' ; t know who' ; s mean enough to throw a bomb in there and get me. And I waited and very nervously -- the four girls that went into the restroom, the Whites came out like they were scared to death. And this, one little White woman, she sat near the door where she could see the track and get to the restroom before the time for her to get on the bus. And she looked up, she said, " ; Well, here' ; s them damn niggers." ; She rushed into the lounge and I tried to console her -- I stepped forward to console her and she let me know she didn' ; t want to be bothered. And those kids were there. When I left, I worked a relief shift. I left at 3:30. I hung around a little longer, but my shift was over at 3:30 and I had to be back the next morning at 7:00 o' ; clock. When I got back at 7:00 o' ; clock those kids were still there. And I was so nervous I didn' ; t rest well. I brought my breakfast and my lunch. When I went into the ladies lounge to clean in there, three girls were in there gagging, perspiring and have crying and I told them " ; Have you had any food?" ; They said " ; No ma' ; am." ; I said " ; Well, I brought my lunch and my breakfast, I' ; ll share it with you or I' ; ll get permission to go to the A& ; P up on the corner and get you some food or some juice." ; They both stepped forward and looked me in the eye. " ; No, ma' ; am. Thank you. We will not accept your food. We are dedicated to a change. And if you give us food, you' ; re helping to defeat our cause." ; The four of us locked arms and cried. HUNTLEY: So they would not accept the food? WASHINGTON: No. And about 9:00, 10:00 o' ; clock somewhere along that time a big, burly, heavy set policeman with a K-9 on leash and his billy stick and cuff links jingling on his hip. A well dressed tall man was with him. And I believed him to be a detective and they passed me and just before they got out of ear shot from me, he said " ; Tell me ... I hear tell one of these little niggers going to pray this morning. I want to hear what he is going tell God when I turn this dog loose on his Black ass." ; That brought a shudder. I just started spot sweeping and running, trying to hear what was going to be said or done. A little bit after they got out there, a young Black man, I wish I knew who he was, stepped up on the float, that' ; s a wagon that push the luggage, locked his hands behind his back and raised his face towards heaven and he prayed. I don' ; t remember all of his prayer, but this he said " ; Dear God, we keep their houses, we take care of their children, we prepare their food, please God, tell these pharaoh' ; s to let your people go. All we want is a place to choose our place to sit down." ; HUNTLEY: And that touched you? WASHINGTON: That touched me and touched him too. A little bit later he came through there, both of them had a stern look on their face, the two that had just passed through. And the fat one was dabbing eyes. I can' ; t swear it was tears, but he was patting his face as if there were tears. HUNTLEY: So what happened to those individuals, those young people? WASHINGTON: They were there until later on in the evening because I was off at 3:00. But later on Attorney General, Robert Kennedy, called and told them to get them out of there to Montgomery where they were traveling. HUNTLEY: Who did Kennedy call? WASHINGTON: He called Mr. Hunt and Mr. Owens. G. J. Owens. I don' ; t remember Hunt' ; s name. But whoever the officials were, they got the call. HUNTLEY: How did you know that they had gotten the call? WASHINGTON: I was told that they got a call. HUNTLEY: So the word was circulating throughout the facility? WASHINGTON: That Kennedy had called. Attorney General Kennedy had called and told them to get them on their way and a bus driver, Joe Cabinero took them to Montgomery. And, I was told that the policemen escorted them out of the city to the city limit. HUNTLEY: Did you get any more actively involved in the Movement after you witnessed this at the bus station? WASHINGTON: No. My working hours didn' ; t allow me to, you know, get in the parade or walk. But I did walk down to Booker T. Washington' ; s school on my lunch break and I saw them when they turned the hose on. They had to have the fire hose connected to spray the kids with that force of water, but didn' ; t no water come out. HUNTLEY: No water came out? WASHINGTON: No. HUNTLEY: But you witnessed the attempt from the fire department to use the hoses on the marchers? WASHINGTON: Right. HUNTLEY: Was this when the children were marching? WASHINGTON: Right. HUNTLEY: What was your reaction to seeing this event? WASHINGTON: It couldn' ; t help but bring tears to my eyes. I was saddened and almost afraid to walk the street alone. Because some Whites were arrogant toward all Blacks. But the change come and Mr. Herman Hardy, he was a porter, they got him into being assistant manager in Greyhound. And in ' ; 63 -- up until the Freedom Riders, everybody was classified as porters, maids and cleaners were Class " ; B" ; employees. Ticket agents, baggage agents, express agents, office personnel were White. HUNTLEY: Did that change as a result of the Freedom Riders? WASHINGTON: Yes it did. Because Mr. Herman Hardy was made assistant supervisor and then to get into the higher job classification they had a question and answer elimination program and I tried to get my best friend who got me the job to take the test and she was leery about taking it and she got sick and I told her I was off and I would come to see her and she asked me to stop at the terminal and get her a sick claim. While I was in there, it hit me like a thunderbolt when I turned around and I saw the manager. I asked him if I could take the test. He said " ; Well, Miss Rosa you' ; re older now." ; I said " ; Both of us are ten minutes older than I was when we walked in here." ; He said some more remarks. I said " ; Are you telling me you' ; re not going to allow me to take the test?" ; He said " ; No, I didn' ; t say that." ; And the secretary was a racist. She was just bowing and looking and cutting her eyes at me and him. So I had learned that 3 or 4 porters had took the test and they failed. The manager told them that they had failed. I said " ; You' ; re not going to let me..." ; " ; Yes, you can get it." ; So when I took the test, he said " ; Well, what time do you come to work." ; I said, " ; I' ; m off today." ; " ; Well, I' ; ll have it graded when you come back." ; I said " ; I' ; m off today and I can stay here until you get time to do it." ; So he just kind of chuckled and he...is going to be kind of hard. HUNTLEY: You said passing was 64 and what did you make on the test? WASHINGTON: Sixty-nine. HUNTLEY: You made 69? WASHINGTON: Yes. He said " ; Well, you' ; re not like the porters. They have been exposed to it because they have to handle the baggage and that kind of thing." ; I said " ; Are you still telling me you' ; re not going to let me try?" ; HUNTLEY: What job were you? WASHINGTON: I was a maid. And I was going to information. HUNTLEY: Okay. Information, was that previously a White job? WASHINGTON: All White. HUNTLEY: Okay. And then what happened? WASHINGTON: Well, I passed it. HUNTLEY: Did you get the job? WASHINGTON: At first they had a bus driver who had -- his health had stopped him from driving buses and he was in the baggage room. And when he learned that I had passed and the shift was posted, he started watching me. If I went out to the dumpster, he' ; d run and peep to see where I went. If I went to go around to the colored waiting room, he was peeping to see where I was. So, I discovered he was watching me and some of the other fellows say, " ; He' ; s watching you, he' ; s watching you." ; So I started out and he saw me going and he didn' ; t see me. He ran back and looked and he didn' ; t see me. I hid down in a telephone booth. And he came to the window peeping and while he was peeping at the window, a customer came up, a shipper. And he started writing a shipper up and it was 3 minutes to 4:00. You had to sign it before 4:00 o' ; clock. I signed and he saw me -- he come running back there. " ; You needn' ; t be signing them, you needn' ; t be signing. I' ; m too old to work back here. I' ; m tired of lifting all this mess. I' ; m going into information, you' ; re not going in there." ; I said " ; That' ; s your privilege." ; And I turned and walked off. But God took care of that. He wasn' ; t in there two months before he called him in. And I went in there. HUNTLEY: So you would eventually get the position that you had -- WASHINGTON: Yes. But at first I went in the baggage room. I took that shift. But when the luggage was too heavy or packages from the waiting room -- the window that was exposed to the White waiting room. The men would tell them to come around, come inside the baggage room. But when I started, they told me I couldn' ; t do it. I had to lift it. And they disqualified me on those grounds. HUNTLEY: That you couldn' ; t lift? WASHINGTON: Lift the luggage like I should. So, after he left the shift was open. My vacation was coming up in about two weeks or three. They let somebody work double until I went on my vacation. When I come back one of the men had passed -- one of the porters. And he was in there. And I come back I asked " ; How did he get in there and I had more seniority?" ; And they told me blah, blah, blah. Well, anyway, I went to the union representative. He told me " ; Well, when Wednesday comes you just go on in there. You' ; re qualified." ; And when I went in there, this guy was named Johnny Green. He was sitting in there and the supervisor' ; s monitoring us and heard the two voices, so they called Johnny out and one ticket agent would help me some time. The woman that worked in there would meet me every morning for me to share my breakfast with her. She sat with her back to me and was so hostile and ugly to me. And I was trying and they wouldn' ; t let me take a manual home where I could study with it. And one night I was seeing a relative off and I was carrying her luggage and Mr. Jim Nalley who was a very liberal man, he saw me. He said " ; Rosa, you all, where you going?" ; And I told him. He said " ; Well, I want you to come into the office before you leave." ; Dispatcher' ; s office. When I went in, he said, " ; I hear that they are thinking about disqualifying you, but if anybody can do it, I know you can. You have the pleasant voice and you read, you can see and they did not treat you right. They gave you two days training and give everybody else two weeks training and I' ; m going to have you know what you' ; re doing when you leave here tonight." ; I stayed from -- and he told my husband. " ; You can sit down over there or you can go back to your car and lay down. But when Rosa goes out of here, she is going to know how to find her routings." ; He kept me in there from 9:15 until he was off at 12:00 o' ; clock. The next morning I was off and my husband woke me up. He had prepared breakfast and he told me, I said " ; Oh, you so smart, you fixing breakfast and it' ; s not Saturday morning." ; He had always made breakfast Saturday. He said " ; Yes, if God put Mr. Nalley into your life to strengthen you to keep your job, I' ; m your husband, I' ; m going to stick closer than he did. You' ; re not going to do anything today but eat, sleep and stay with that book." ; Mr. Nalley gave me a discarded manual -- what they called Russell Guide and told me how to use it. When I went back to work the next day, this woman that had been sitting with her back to me said " ; Huh, what happened to you? What kind of smartie pills you been taking?" ; I said, " ; I took the Lord in prayer and he sent me a friend." ; HUNTLEY: So you then retained that job? WASHINGTON: I retained that job for fourteen years and four months. HUNTLEY: And that' ; s where you retired from? WASHINGTON: That' ; s where I retired from. HUNTLEY: It' ; s been really a pleasure sitting and talking with you today because you have really given -- you have educated us. WASHINGTON: Thank you. HUNTLEY: I certainly appreciate that because, as I said earlier, what we are doing ; we hope to eventually write what we determine to be the real history of Birmingham. The only way that we can write that history is to get it from people like yourself. Thank you again for coming out. WASHINGTON: And the blessed part of it when I retired, they said I could choose any place in the city I wanted to go to dinner and Mr. Herman Hardy was assistant supervisor. He and his wife would escort me and my husband and I chose " ; The Club." ; HUNTLEY: Oh, so you went to The Club? WASHINGTON: Went to The Club and I was seated where I could look all over all the city and see the view. HUNTLEY: What year was that? WASHINGTON: That I retired? ' ; 77, October 17, 1977. HUNTLEY: Okay. So you have gone to The Club? WASHINGTON: Went to The Club. HUNTLEY: And got your reward? WASHINGTON: Right. That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: Good. Thank you again for coming out. We certainly appreciate it. WASHINGTON: I have enjoyed it. Because I said one day -- I was talking to Mr. Hardy yesterday. I told him I was coming. And he told me to -- that he wanted to know how I come out or whatever. And we had one Black there when it was broken down. Before it was broken down I think Robert Peterson wanted to go in the -- after segregation was broken down he wanted to go in the ticket office and they would allow him. He left here and went to Atlanta and they let him hold a office and he got angry ... This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RWashington1995.xml RWashington1995.xml
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Rosa Washington
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Rosa Washington discusses living in ACIPCO and being involved with the NAACP. She worked at the Greyhound station when the Freedom Riders came through.
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19950414W
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Freedom Rides, 1961
NAACP
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1995-04-14
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video
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7c9403140ffa7fd03e3a8c50fc3606f7
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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Audrey Hendricks
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AHendricks1995.xml
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5.4 May 25, 1995 Audrey Hendricks 19950525H 0:31:06 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Audrey Hendricks Horace Huntley Video 1:|7(9)|31(6)|51(10)|72(10)|96(8)|118(4)|133(6)|164(8)|189(7)|215(8)|236(11)|252(10)|275(4)|309(5)|344(12)|367(16)|385(4)|417(2)|433(15)|458(12)|480(5)|495(2)|512(5)|539(9)|556(3)|569(6)|581(1)|603(7)|625(8)|646(6)|656(4) 0 https://youtu.be/mjFtx0o1XFM YouTube video English 44 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Audrey Faye Hendricks for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Audrey Hendricks is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 60 Background and Family Life Thank you for taking time our of your schedule to come and sit with us today. I would just want to start by asking you some general kinds of questions about your family. Hendricks tells about her parent's education and jobs, how many siblings she has, and where she was born. Booker T. Washington Business College Birmingham (Ala.) ; Greene County (Ala.) 123 Educational Journey Tell me about your education. Where did you start school? Hendricks recalls where she went to elementary school, high school, and college. Fatima, Our Lady of ; Ramsay High School Birmingham (Ala.) 192 Attending Ramsay High School After Desegregation Describe to me what it was like going to Ramsay High School. Hendricks discusses how there was a cultural difference between the white and Black students at Ramsay High School. Integration ; Ramsay High School African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.) 420 Growing Up in the Titusville Community Tell me a bit about the community that you lived in. Hendricks recalls how her neighborhood was mainly Black and how the police would harass the people in her community. African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Birmingham (Ala.) 508 Moving to Dallas, Texas Then Back to Birmingham What did you do after high school? Hendricks tells how she left Birmingham to go to college but then decided to come back because she missed home. Bishop College Birmingham (Ala.) ; Dallas (Tex.) 551 Involvement in the Civil Rights Movement Tell me a little about your involvement in the Civil Rights Movement. Hendricks recalls her parents' involvement in the Movement and how she was involved as a child. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 635 Attending the Children's Mass Meetings Can you describe to me what the typical mass meeting was like from the perspective of a child? Hendricks discusses how there were mass meetings for adults and children but they typically covered the same topics of injustice and non-violent protests. Mass meetings ; Non-violent protests ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 831 Being Arrested at Eight Years Old What were the circumstances of your arrest? Hendricks discusses how she was arrested marching down 16th street and how her family supported her involvement in the march. Arrest (Police methods) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1016 Spending Two Weeks in Jail Were you inside or outside? Hendricks discusses how the children were separated by gender and would play in a recreation area during the day. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) 1059 Family's Reaction to Her Arrest So the morning that you had decided to be arrested, your parents took you to school? Hendricks recalls how her family was supportive of her desire to be arrested in order to help the movement. Arrest (Police methods) ; Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) 1114 Memories of the Police Dogs What does an eight year old think about when they are in jail for two weeks? Hendricks recalls seeing a man attacked by police dogs at the demonstration and how she knew this was an injustice even as a child. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Stewart, Shelley, 1934- Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States 1240 Her Perception of White People as a Child That's really amazing to have a child talk about it, you know, talk about it from the perspective of a child of six to eight years old and how in fact that impacted you at the time. Hendricks tells how even as a young child she knew that black people were experiencing injustices at the hands of white people. African Americans--Segregation ; Racial injustice Birmingham (Ala.) 1302 Community's Reaction to Her Arrest What church were you a member of? Hendricks discusses how the community was very supportive of her decision to participate in the march and be arrested. Civil rights movement ; New Pilgrim Baptist Church Arrest (Police methods) ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1389 Remembrance of the 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing The Movement continued of course after the demonstrations and in September of '63, the year that you were arrested, of course, the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church took place. Hendricks discusses her memories of the bombing and how she was sad to lose her friend, Denise McNair. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Denise McNair Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1472 Involvement in the Movement During High School Turbulent times. Were you involved after that? Hendricks recalls how she was not heavily involved in the movement in junior high and high school. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Ramsay High School Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1524 Accomplishments of the Movement What accomplishments did you see as a child that took place as a result of the Movement? Hendricks tells how the movement helped the adults have access to better jobs and the kids access to better education. Integration ; Racial equality Birmingham (Ala.) 1597 Stereotypes About the South When you were away from Birmingham and you were meeting other people and they found out you were from Birmingham, what were their reactions? Hendricks recalls how people in Dallas did not question her about the movement when she lived there. Bishop College ; Dallas (Tex.) Birmingham (Ala.) 1705 White People Who Helped the Movement Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with in relationship to your participation and how you felt as a child and the kinds of things that you were involved in and how you related to other people. Hendricks recalled how white people from out of state helped the movement. Boycotts ; Christmas Birmingham (Ala.) 1817 Conclusion of Interview Well, I certainly do appreciate you taking the time out today and come out and talk with us because your perspective from that tender age, is so vitally important for what we are attempting to do. Interview is concluded. Oral History Audrey Hendricks discusses spending two weeks in jail at eight years old after being arrested for demonstrating. She then lost her friend, Denise McNair, in the bombing of 16th Street Baptist church in the same year. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Audrey Faye Hendricks for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 1, 1995. Welcome, Ms. Hendricks. HENDRICKS: Thank you. HUNTLEY: Thank for taking time out of your schedule to come and sit with us today. I would just want to start by asking you some general kinds of questions about your family. Where are your parents from? Are they originally from Birmingham? HENDRICKS: My mother is from Birmingham -- is a native Birmingham. My father is a native of Boligee, Alabama which is in Greene County. HUNTLEY: I see. Where were you born? HENDRICKS: I was born in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters are there? HENDRICKS: There are two of us. I am the oldest of two girls. HUNTLEY: Tell me just a bit about the education of your parents. How much schooling did they have? HENDRICKS: My mother finished Booker T. Washington Business College and my father did not complete elementary school, being in a rural township. HUNTLEY: What were their occupations? HENDRICKS: My father was a laborer. He worked for Jim Dandy at the time and my mother worked for Alexander and Company with a black insurance company at that time doing clerical kinds of things. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your education. Where did you start school? Did you start at Center Street? HENDRICKS: I started at Center Street. I went there for four years. And after the four years I went to private school, to Our Lady of Fatima. After desegregation I went to Ramsay High School and I left Birmingham in ' ; 71 and went to Bishop College in Dallas, Texas. I came back to Birmingham for awhile in the ' ; 80s and went to UAB and took some courses towards my Masters. HUNTLEY: So you went to Fatima? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Was that high school? HENDRICKS: Our Lady of Fatima was an elementary school. It was Immaculata initially. And Immaculata was no more and it ended up being an elementary school and the children who were at Our Lady of Fatima on 14th Street South at that time were then moved down to what was known then as Immaculata High School. HUNTLEY: Right. HENDRICKS: And that is where I started with them for the last -- well, I should say 5th through 8th grade. HUNTLEY: Describe to me what it was like going to Ramsay High School. What year did you go to Ramsay? HENDRICKS: I started there in ' ; 71. When I went to Ramsay High School it was immediately right after desegregation, well, whenever they decided to start letting Black children go to high school. I remember for the first two weeks, we all sat in the auditorium because they didn' ; t quite know what to do with us. HUNTLEY: You mean the Black children sat in the auditorium? HENDRICKS: Yes. Ramsay had it set up at that time where children before the school term would end, say like now in May of ' ; 95, they would have already elected what courses they would take for the upcoming fall term. So, what they had to do was to get us situated in classes and I guess basically find out what do we do with these children that have just shown up here based on what the laws are now. HUNTLEY: Today, in order to get into Ramsay you have to take a test. HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Was there a test at that time? HENDRICKS: No. it was a public school. HENDRICKS: From my understanding I think at that time it was, it' ; s an alternative school now, and I think what they have done, is gone back to the concept that they had then. During the times that I was there I went to school with the Bruno' ; s children, the Salem' ; s children, that own the restaurants, so I knew those children. HUNTLEY: Well, how were you accepted in those years that you were at Ramsay? In the initial stages? HENDRICKS: In the initial stage of it, we had to kind of -- us as Black children, had to kind of bind together as friends. It was very difficult. There was some hatred among children. Whites against Blacks and vice versa. I guess, well, some of us, I witnessed some fights of the two races. Some name calling. Not a whole lot, but just little things that would happen during the school years. But as my graduation got closer it got a little bit better by the fourth year. HUNTLEY: Ramsay was probably desegregated maybe as early as ' ; 66 or so? Is that right ' ; 66 or ' ; 67? So you were not the first class were you? HENDRICKS: I was not the first class that I am aware of. HUNTLEY: But all of the Black kids were placed in the auditorium at the beginning of the year? HENDRICKS: Yes. In ' ; 71. HUNTLEY: That' ; s very interesting. What do you remember most about Ramsay? HENDRICKS: I think the thing that I remember most about Ramsay again is the friendships, the togetherness that we had. HUNTLEY: Between the Blacks and the Whites? HENDRICKS: Primarily Blacks and Blacks. I think that for Blacks and Whites it gave me an appreciation or understanding I guess of dealing with another culture. Prior to that I had been based in just my culture. And in going to Ramsay it helped me understand some things that are just innate in people and cultures that you may not have known prior to mixing with other races. HUNTLEY: Like what, for instance? HENDRICKS: Well, one thing I think was the temperature. Something as simple as that. We tend, in the winter, to be very cold natured and want to put on a lot of clothes. I found that we would have big arguments about, " ; Let the window down." ; The Whites would always say, " ; It' ; s too hot in here." ; And we would always think it would be comfortable. A lot of times you didn' ; t have boys that would just physically lash out and that kind of thing at Black girls to show playfulness at that time. HUNTLEY: So there were differences, cultural differences? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a bit about the community that you lived in. What community did you live in? HENDRICKS: I lived in Titusville, is what they call that area, which is the southwest side off of 6th Avenue South and Center Street. HUNTLEY: How would you describe the community? HENDRICKS: The community was mixed. We had school teachers. We had business persons. I lived across the street from Paul Harris who worked for Protective Industrial for years. Some doctors in the community and general laborers. We had people that worked at ACIPICO and plants like that. HUNTLEY: So you mean mixed in terms of economic status? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Racial make-up? HENDRICKS: It was predominately Black. HUNTLEY: Was it predominately Black or all Black? HENDRICKS: 100 percent. HUNTLEY: What do you remember in terms of recreation in the community? HENDRICKS: The only recreation that we had at that time was Memorial Park which was not very far from where I lived. HUNTLEY: What was your perception of your community' ; s relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? HENDRICKS: None really. If they were breaking in, you would see policemen and something of that nature. And that was very rare that anything would happen. But, nothing where they just came to the community and harassing about it to my recollection. HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school? HENDRICKS: I left Birmingham and moved to Dallas, Texas and went to college there for four years. HUNTLEY: To what school? HENDRICKS: Bishop College. HUNTLEY: And after college did you come back to Birmingham? HENDRICKS: No. I lived in Dallas for the next four years and I worked in mental health for Dallas County Mental Health and Retardation and worked with children there with emotional problems in a residential setting. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to come back to Birmingham? HENDRICKS: Well, I decided that I had been there long enough and I just wanted to kind of come back home -- just drew me back home after a while. HUNTLEY: The attraction of home? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your involvement in the Civil Rights Movement. How and why did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement? HENDRICKS: Well, for me it was no way for me not to really be involved. My parents were involved from the point that I could remember. My mother was assistant secretary of the Alabama Christian Movement. My mother had gone to jail for riding on the bus. My church was involved. It was just no way around it. You were there and just a part of it, so that' ; s how I got involved. HUNTLEY: So you were simply surrounded by it? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you were in fact a child of the Movement I would say? HENDRICKS: Yes. And some people, sometimes when you look on the media and talk shows that they have now where they have people talk about what kind of people that came through your home. It wasn' ; t rare for me to see Fred Shuttlesworth, you know, to come to my home. It wasn' ; t rare for Dr. King to maybe come by sometimes. So those people I remember as a child. HUNTLEY: What was that like to be in the presence of Shuttlesworth or King, people that were in the news an awful lot? HENDRICKS: Well, at that age, you know, it' ; s just someone coming by. Again, being a child you don' ; t really understand until like now. Like, " ; Wow, these people I knew and were in my home." ; HUNTLEY: You attended the mass meetings? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what the typical mass meeting was like from the perspective of a child? What age are we talking about? How old were you when you were first arrested? HENDRICKS: When I was finally arrested, I was eight years old. So from the inception I had been in the Movement all the time. Whenever they began, as far as I know, when they began mass meetings, I was there because of my mother and father. I don' ; t ever remember a time we were not in the meeting, whether or not -- initially we would start it at 16th Street from what I could remember. And later, as it grew, they ended up having two meetings. Meetings where they had adults and then meetings where they had the children. HUNTLEY: You mean mass meetings, where you would have a meeting for the adults and a meeting for the children? HENDRICKS: Yes. Because we had outgrown 16th Street so there would end up being two places. I remember Andy Young and some of them being part of the mass meetings where the younger people would be and I think in my mind it had to be because it was just so many people and we had packed 16th Street out. And so the children became involved and that' ; s how we ended up there. But the meetings themselves were, in my mind from what I can remember, was energy. It was very organized. People responded. I remember times when they would say, " ; If we are going to march tomorrow, if you have any weapons, come down and put them on the table." ; And there would be people to come down and put knives on the table and those kinds of things. So it was great impact. HUNTLEY: Were these younger people? HENDRICKS: Different ages. Depending upon which meeting that all would go to. HUNTLEY: So you could actually attend either meeting, the adult meeting or the children' ; s meeting? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: How were the two meetings different? HENDRICKS: There was not any difference in the meetings. The same kind of thing where there was singing, there was strategies. They talked about what would happen if you are going to march. Well, not what would happen, but if you had decided that you were going to march, that you did not need to take weapons. This is a non-violent organization and we want, they stressed that very strongly. That this is non-violence involved in it. HUNTLEY: There were, I know in the adult meetings, there were many testimonies that were given about what people were experiencing. Did you have the same kind of testimony? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were these done by younger people? HENDRICKS: Teenagers primarily. People may have been high school or college age persons at that time. Or sometimes adults. It would be mingled. But you would find that children with teens and young adults and maybe my age would be more prone to draw to that church where they were organized there. But you could go to either one. It was not separate, per se. HUNTLEY: It was not a restrictive bunch? HENDRICKS: Right. HUNTLEY: Were Birmingham police present at the meetings? HENDRICKS: If they were, they were not dressed in their uniform for me to know that there were police around. HUNTLEY: But if they were, they would have been White. So were there Whites in the meetings? HENDRICKS: Not that I ever remember seeing. HUNTLEY: You were arrested? HENDRICKS: I was arrested. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances of your arrest? HENDRICKS: Well, I had gone to a mass meeting one particular night and when I went home I just told my mother and father that there was something that I wanted to do and they told me okay. HUNTLEY: You told them that you wanted to go to jail? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And they agreed? HENDRICKS: They agreed. HUNTLEY: So what happened? Where were you? HENDRICKS: When I told my parents? HUNTLEY: No. I assume you were at home when you told your parents and that was the night after -- HENDRICKS: One of the mass meetings. And during the day I went to see my grandparents my mother' ; s side, and my grandparents on my father' ; s side and whoever was there would tell me I was going to jail. I remember telling the teacher. We went by the school and she cried. HUNTLEY: Oh, you mean, you left home that morning and you went to the school? HENDRICKS: Yes. I was just kind of telling people what I was going to do. And I remember the teacher crying about it. You know, I think she was just touched about the whole thing. HUNTLEY: Do you remember the teacher? HENDRICKS: A Miss B. P. Wills. HUNTLEY: Miss B. P. Wills. What grade were you in? HENDRICKS: I would have been, at that time, in the 3rd grade or the 4th grade. HUNTLEY: How long were you in jail? HENDRICKS: Two weeks. HUNTLEY: Two weeks? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you were eight? HENDRICKS: Yes. Eight years old. HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what happened during the arrest? Were you marching? HENDRICKS: We marched from 16th Street and I think that we got to the next block where Booker T. Washington and WENN radio is now. We got half-way the block and they put us in the paddy wagon and they took us to juvenile hall. And my remembrance now, that apparently right after I was arrested there must have been the big thrust when so many other people were arrested, and they ended up at the fairgrounds. Because you would get news sometimes that there' ; s no more room here and they are now putting people out at the fairgrounds because there is no other jails, they were all filled. But they arrested me and I went in the paddy wagon. The first day we went into this room that looked like a classroom and we, the children, all of a sudden there for a while. And there was not any harassment or anything of any people there. I remember later on, I don' ; t know if it was the same day or some days later, I went into maybe a conference room where there were Whites that was asking questions about the movement. And in my mind I was wondering whether or not they were trying to find out was anything communistic in the Movement. HUNTLEY: Were these policemen? HENDRICKS: They did not have on uniforms. They were plainclothes people. And they would ask what went on in the meetings. What kinds of things do they talk about and we all responded that we talked about non-violence and discrimination and that kind of thing? And whether or not that they thought that they were telling us anything about overthrowing the government and of course, not. And that was about it. The rest of the time, you were just there. HUNTLEY: Were you inside or outside? HENDRICKS: I was inside. Where we slept at night and during the day, it was like a dormitory setting. The rooms had bunk beds and it was one on top of the other. It may have been where it could, and I am estimating, maybe 15-20 people tops. HUNTLEY: Were these all girls in one area? HENDRICKS: All girls. HUNTLEY: And the boys in another area? HENDRICKS: Exactly, yes. HUNTLEY: What did you do during the day? HENDRICKS: During the day we would go outside maybe to the -- they had like a recreational area outside. There was no classes per se to keep up any of your academics. So you just were there basically. HUNTLEY: So the morning that you had decided to be arrested, your parents took you to school? HENDRICKS: Right. To let Miss Wills know. HUNTLEY: And then they took you down to the church? HENDRICKS: Well, we went by my family' ; s home to let them know. And then we went to the church. HUNTLEY: What was your family' ; s reaction? HENDRICKS: Well, my father' ; s family, brothers were all really involved in the Movement. Well, not all, but a large majority of them were involved, so it was like, " ; Okay, we are very proud of you." ; So there was no one that was upset negatively about it. HUNTLEY: Were there others of your age there, at the time that you were arrested? HENDRICKS: I think that there were a few others. I didn' ; t know them personally, but I understand from reading, that there were others that may have been as young as I was. HUNTLEY: What does an eight-year-old think about when they are in jail for two weeks? HENDRICKS: At that time, I thought I was just part of the cause. That I was helping the cause. In my mind I could understand injustice and I think that I could stand that because of the recollection of the maybe the first meeting that made an impact to me. It was, I think Shelley Stewart at that time was at the meeting and they were talking. You could just feel the people' ; s emotions. I guess that' ; s what you know, you could just tell this person is serious about this. This is something going on. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Shelley Stewart? HENDRICKS: He was just talking about the injustices and how we should not be treated the way that we were. And after they talked for awhile then they had a demonstration. This elderly man was part of the demonstration and I witnessed a dog attacking him and it was like, " ; Oh, my God." ; HUNTLEY: So you did see the dogs? HENDRICKS: Yes. Yes. HUNTLEY: And the water hoses? HENDRICKS: I did not ever see the water hoses. That was the one thing that I remember. HUNTLEY: How did that impact you? HENDRICKS: I thought that it was awful at the time for, in my mind, I had witnessed the beginning where something I was just talking to people. Then you go out and all you want to do is march and it' ; s something that' ; s non-violent and I didn' ; t understand about the permits of course, as a child then. But I didn' ; t see anything wrong as a child to be able to march in a group to say I don' ; t like what is going on and then you going to put a dog on me. HUNTLEY: How near was the dog to you physically? HENDRICKS: I wasn' ; t very close. I was close enough. Maybe I would say half a block. HUNTLEY: The man was not near you, you just saw it from a distance? HENDRICKS: Yes. I saw it from a distance. HUNTLEY: That' ; s really amazing to have a child talk about it, you know, talk about it from the perspective of a child of six to eight years old and how in fact that impacted you at the time. Did that have anything to do with the way that you perceived White people as a result of your participation in the movement? HENDRICKS: You mean negatively? HUNTLEY: Yes. HENDRICKS: No. Not at the time it did not. I guess in a child' ; s mind, you don' ; t really, you have not experienced the kind of injustices that my parents probably had. But just the incident with the gentlemen, I could understand that that was wrong. HUNTLEY: Were you aware of the " ; colored" ; fountains or the boards on the buses or any of those things that were just vividly displayed? HENDRICKS: No. Not vividly. I don' ; t remember the boards on the buses. I do remember the fountains. When we would shop sometime, I would go with my grandmother to shop. But I didn' ; t ever have any incidents or any encounters I guess. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of? HENDRICKS: New Pilgrim Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: And New Pilgrim, of course, was very actively involved. Your pastor was very involved. You your family, in fact. I know your mother and father. HENDRICKS: And my father had some brothers that were arrested as well. A couple of brothers. HUNTLEY: As you said, you had no other alternative. Tell me, after this is over, after you are released from jail, what was the reception when you returned to school, do you remember? HENDRICKS: It had to have been fine. I don' ; t remember anybody teasing me, if that' ; s what you mean, or giving me a hard time about it. Life just continued as it was before I went to jail. I had no problems with my peers or the teachers. HUNTLEY: Did they look at you as a hero or a shero? HENDRICKS: I don' ; t think that they really understood. HUNTLEY: The teacher that cried. Do you remember after you returned, anything about her? HENDRICKS: No. Not anything. I think that at the time she had pretty much expressed in her tears. HUNTLEY: The Movement continued of course after the demonstrations and in September of ' ; 63, the year that you were arrested, of course, the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church took place. Do you remember that? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about it? HENDRICKS: I remember Denise McNair. HUNTLEY: Oh, you knew her. HUNTLEY: Yes. HUNTLEY: What were the emotions of the times when that happened? HENDRICKS: I was shocked. She was a year older than I was. HUNTLEY: Did she go to Center Street? HENDRICKS: Yes. She went to Center Street. Her mother was a teacher at Center Street at that time. I remember after her death, I think that they had the polio vaccines that they were giving in the sugar cubes and you had to go to Center Street to get them and after her death, I remember them bringing her to the school to get her, I guess the sugar cubes and how the people would have to just kind of hold her up, she was just that distraught over losing her child. I think that at that time, Denise may have been the only child. HUNTLEY: You mean the mother? HENDRICKS: The mother. Denise' ; s mother. It may have been the only child at that time that she had. I remember that as a child. HUNTLEY: Turbulent times. Were you involved after that? As you went on into junior high school and high school were you involved at all in any of the Movement? HENDRICKS: Not particularly. There was one guy that went to Ramsay with me whose sister sang in the Alabama Christian Movement Choir and I remember him because they were rehearsing. We would see each other. My father was in the choir as well as his sister and we would see each other there and he was really the only person that I really knew other than some of my friends that grew up in the neighborhood that we would talk alot. Because we had that common bond with the Movement of any of the other friends that I had. HUNTLEY: What accomplishments did you see as a child that took place as a result of the Movement? HENDRICKS: I think the biggest accomplishments were at the beginning were jobs for adults from that. I know that my mother was able to leave Alexander and Company and work for the federal government which she would have not been able to prior to the demonstrations. In my -- just in the community itself, you could see people moving up and being able to have better jobs. Being able to go to the restaurants that you had never been able to go to before that you could only kind of look out, I guess, outside through the window. The school, for me. Being able to go to Ramsay whereas it had not been available to me and anybody that wanted to go. So, just an abundance of things that had not been before. And I think that it has helped relationships for Blacks and Whites in some aspects. HUNTLEY: When you were away from Birmingham and you were meeting from other people and they found out you were from Birmingham, what were their reactions? HENDRICKS: I guess in some instances the same way that it is now when you say that you are from the South. The people have these preconceived notions about everybody lives in shotgun houses or we are on the farm. I don' ; t think at that time that a lot of people were into the history of Birmingham. They didn' ; t ask me a lot of questions about, you know, how you were involved, what did you all do. HUNTLEY: They did not ask you any questions about it? HENDRICKS: No. HUNTLEY: Were there others at Bishop from Birmingham or others in Dallas? HENDRICKS: No. Just myself. HENDRICKS: At that time that I knew. I met people later that were from there but no one that I knew prior to going. HUNTLEY: Well, did you have any difficulties in returning to Birmingham? I know many people who have left Birmingham will say, " ; Well, they left Birmingham and they' ; d never come back." ; Was that ever a problem for you? HENDRICKS: No. Not at all. HUNTLEY: One of the things that sort of strikes me is that I always considered myself coming back to Birmingham eventually. Even during the days of segregation, I said that I was going to leave and I was going to come back. But as I told people that I was coming back, they would always say, " ; Why? Why are you going back to Birmingham?" ; Did that happen at all to you? HENDRICKS: No. Not at all. HUNTLEY: No one questioned why you would -- HENDRICKS: Why would I go back to Birmingham? HUNTLEY: Yes. HENDRICKS: None. HUNTLEY: That' ; s interesting. Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with in relationship to your participation and how you felt as a child and the kinds of things that you were involved in and how you related to other people. Or even how it is -- that experience impacted upon your lifelong term? HENDRICKS: The only other thing that I did not talk about that I did think about as I was sitting here and there were -- we always talk about the power, we always talked about what the Whites did not do. But there were people that did do things to help and assist. And I remember one year when it was near Christmas time and I think there must have been a boycott going on of the stores where they were not to buy things, I know people were shipping toys down to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Shipping from? HENDRICKS: From other states. HENDRICKS: So the children could have toys. And I remember as a child to see all these toys and they came to my home, some of the things did and to have to get rid of them, of course, because you couldn' ; t keep them all for yourself. But you know, just to know that there were people who did care, who were not Black. Who were white people who were with the cause.HUNTLEY: So people were sending toys to your address? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And then your parents had to distribute them to other children? HENDRICKS: Yes. Because of the boycott and they wanted children to have a Christmas. And I guess that the overall picture, well I just see people, just Black people in general walking down the street in their suits and ties and you kind of say, " ; Hum, I had a part in that." ; HUNTLEY: Well, I certainly do appreciate you taking the time out today and come out and talk with us because your perspective from that tender age, is so vitally important for what we are attempting to do. And we will review this and we may want to talk with you again. Thank you again. HENDRICKS: Alright. Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AHendricks1995.xml AHendricks1995.xml
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Audrey Hendricks
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Audrey Hendricks discusses spending two weeks in jail at eight years old after being arrested for demonstrating. She then lost her friend, Denise McNair, in the bombing of 16th Street Baptist church in the same year.
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19950525H
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963
Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.)
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1995-05-25
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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bcriohp
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Horace Huntley
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Charlotte Billups Jernigan
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Reverend Charles Billups
Black Panther Movement
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5.4 June 9, 1995 Charlotte Billups Jernigan 19950609J 1:08:33 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Jackson, Jesse, 1941- Reverend Charles Billups Black Panther Movement Charlotte Billups Jernigan Horace Huntley Video 1:|8(7)|41(3)|64(11)|86(6)|106(6)|125(14)|140(5)|161(14)|176(9)|191(9)|210(7)|226(11)|245(14)|268(11)|295(4)|313(10)|329(3)|346(5)|358(12)|380(4)|396(7)|421(4)|438(10)|458(12)|474(2)|490(3)|512(8)|535(2)|554(1)|567(9)|587(11)|613(2)|630(5)|649(1)|660(7)|674(12)|688(3)|703(19)|717(10)|732(11)|756(10)|772(2)|786(12)|800(3)|812(15)|828(7)|840(11)|861(10)|883(7)|897(7)|922(4)|934(4)|962(7)|978(2)|1000(4)|1017(5)|1032(2)|1048(2)|1060(3)|1073(7)|1086(14)|1098(3)|1111(15)|1125(1)|1140(3)|1155(13)|1169(3)|1184(9) 0 https://youtu.be/294Ai2ZzvTg YouTube video English 52 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Charlotte Billups Jernigan for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Mrs. Jernigan is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 59 Family Background Let me just start by asking some general questions about your background, about your family. Jernigan discusses how many siblings she has and where her parents are from. Indiana, Gary ; Irondale (Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) 160 Educational Journey Tell me about your education. Tell me about where did you start elementary school. Jernigan went to grade school in Birmingham then moved to Chicago and attended a prestigious music school. American Conservatory of Music (Chicago, Ill.) ; Booker T. Washington Business College ; Lincoln University (Jefferson City, Mo.) Birmingham (Ala.) 224 Community Background What community were you reared in? Jernigan describes the racial and economic make-up of her community. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Blue collar workers Birmingham (Ala.) 297 Father's Involvement in the Movement What was your father's name? Jernigan recalls how her father was very active and a prominent leader in the movement. Civil rights movement ; Reverend Charles Billups Birmingham (Ala.) 434 Being Forced to Grow Up Fast And you being the oldest, then you had to sort of oversee the rest of the children? Jernigan recalls how she had to mature quicker than other kids because of her father's involvement in the movement. A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Reverend Charles Billups Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 568 Typical Day in Her Life as a Child Can you give me a description of the typical day in your life as a child during the period -- the height of the Movement with your father being so active? Jernigan recalls how she would go to school during the day, attend mass meetings at night, and go to the Gaston motel in the early hours of the morning. Abernathy, Ralph, 1926-1990 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) 661 Attending Mass Meetings Now, when you attended the mass meetings, I've gotten different kinds of descriptions of what they were like. As a teenager, how would you describe a typical mass meeting? Jernigan describes what a typical mass meeting was like and how she and her sisters would have to stay late while her father planned with the other leaders. New Pilgrim Baptist Church ; Reverend Charles Billups ; Reverend Nelson Smith Birmingham (Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 793 Her Mother's Career as a Nurse Tell me about your mother. What was she doing? Jernigan discusses how her mother was a nurse at UAB hospital and was discriminated against by her coworkers. The University of Alabama at Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.) ; Nursing 932 Conversations with Leaders of the Movement After the mass meetings, and then there would be a meeting after the meeting by the leaders of the Movement, your father being one of those. Jernigan recalls conversations she had with Dr. King and the other prominent leaders of the Movement. A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1031 Demonstrations and the Blue Jean Brigade Did you ever remember them leaving and going to a demonstration and returning after that demonstration? Jernigan attended demonstrations with Movement leaders and described the denim suits they wore. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1157 Relationship with the Police I normally ask a question about the relationship between the Birmingham Police Department and the community. Jernigan recalls incidents when police assaulted her father and her little sister bit a police officer. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Police brutality--United States Birmingham (Ala.) 1339 Experience with the KKK Were there any of the children in your neighborhood or in your school that was involved in the Movement? Jernigan recalls when her father was beaten by the Ku Klux Klan. Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) ; Ku Klux Klan 1494 Processing the Violence Toward her Father Well, what do you remember as result of that and in your returning to school did your teachers talk about it? Jernigan recalls how her school counselor helped her through tough times in her life. Hayes High School ; Reverend Smith Birmingham (Ala.) 1595 Experiencing Racism in Restaurants and Shops Now, you, and your siblings were never arrested? Jernigan recalls how the store workers would refuse to serve Black customers and would call them derogatory names. Racism--United States ; Reverend Charles Billups ; Reverend Smith Birmingham (Ala.) ; Selma (Ala.) 1720 Boycotting Popular Clothing Stores Tell me about the Easters and Christmas that you couldn't go to the stores. Jernigan boycotted several stores and her father was upset at her breaking the boycott. Pizitz (Department store) ; Selective buying Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1957 Being Diagnosed with Lupus You were affected by an illness that you really didn't understand at that time? Jernigan recalls how the Army diagnosed her with Lupus. United States Armed Forces Birmingham (Ala.) ; Lupus 2017 Serving in the Military When did you go into the military? Jernigan describes being Black in the Army and how she helped integrate the church. Army General Staff College (U.S.) ; Integration Civil rights movement 2298 The 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing 1963 in Birmingham was sort of the highlight of the Movement with the demonstrations and, then, finally with the bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church. Jernigan's mother was told not to help treat the 16th Street bombing victims when they arrived at the hospital. The University of Alabama at Birmingham 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Birmingham (Ala.) 2425 Meeting All of the Great Leaders of the Movement What is your most memorable remembrance of the Movement? Jernigan states that her best memory from the movement is meeting all of the leaders and seeing them plan the movement. A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 2721 Confronting Racism in Everyday Life Let me just ask you -- you were never arrested. Jernigan recalls how she used to get in fights with white people on the buses for not treating her and her friends fairly. Buses--Law and legislation ; Desegregation Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 3108 Moving to Chicago for the Movement Now, your family moved from Birmingham to Chicago during the time that Dr. King was marching. Jernigan describes how her father and the other leaders laid the groundwork for the revolution in Chicago. Black Panther Movement ; Cicero (Ill.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Chicago (Ill.) ; Jackson, Jesse, 1941- 3283 Her Father's Death But your father though was killed. Rev. Billups was found dead in Hyde Park in Chicago and the police did not thoroughly investigate. Hyde Park (Chicago, Ill.) ; Reverend Charles Billups Chicago (Ill.) ; Chicago (Ill.). Police Department 3356 Accomplishments of the Movement How would you evaluate the Movement? Jernigan describes the success of the movement and how it impacted future generations. Civil rights movement ; Desegregation ; Integration Birmingham (Ala.) 3636 Cherishing Her Experiences of the Movement You have obviously experienced an awful lot. Jernigan would not change anything about the Movement and how she holds dear the memories of it. Civil rights movement ; Revered Charles Billups ; Reverend Smith Birmingham (Ala.) 3722 Educating People About the Movement Well, finally, this has been a great afternoon. I've learned so much. Jernigan emphasizes the responsibility to educate the younger generations about the Movement. African American children--Education ; Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) 4072 Conclusion of Interview Well, Mrs. Charlotte Billups Jernigan, thank you very much. Interview is concluded. Oral History Charlotte Billups Jernigan discusses being the daughter of Movement leader Rev. Charles Billups. She attended mass meetings, served in the US Army and worked to integrate service church before moving to work in the Chicago Movement. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Charlotte Billups Jernigan for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 14, 1995. Thank you Mrs. Jernigan for coming out and sitting with us today to share your story of the Civil Rights Movement with us. JERNIGAN: I' ; m very glad to be here. HUNTLEY: Let me just start by asking some general questions about your background, about your family. Where were your mother and father from? JERNIGAN: My mother' ; s name is Almarie Stevens and she' ; s from Irondale, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Irondale? JERNIGAN: Yes. She was born and raised there. And that' ; s just a little suburb of Birmingham. My father was born in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: All right. Then, were you born in Birmingham? JERNIGAN: I was born in Birmingham also. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? JERNIGAN: I have three sisters. I mean I have two sisters, Alicia Francine and Helene Renee. HUNTLEY: Where are you in that group? JERNIGAN: I' ; m the oldest. HUNTLEY: You' ; re the oldest. So you are the one that had to take care of the rest of them? JERNIGAN: Yes, I did. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your parents' ; education. How much education did they have? JERNIGAN: My mom went to Irondale Junior High School and then on from there she did a little bit of studying and then she went to LPN school when she and my father married at the age of 35. She worked as an LPN and retired as a LPN. Daddy was a graduate of Booker T. Washington Business College. HUNTLEY: Did he go to Parker? JERNIGAN: No. Daddy went to school in Gary, Indiana. I' ; m not sure of the name, but he graduated from high school there. HUNTLEY: Is that right? JERNIGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Who was he living with there? JERNIGAN: His uncle and aunt. He only went there for the high school portion. I think he attended the regular public schools here in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your education. Tell me about where did you start elementary school. JERNIGAN: First, I started, which was here in Birmingham, North Patterson, which changed to be Henry C. Bryant Elementary. Then from Bryant Elementary I went to Hayes High School. From Hayes High School I went to Cleveland to Cuyahoga Community College and after Cuyahoga my family went to Chicago and I went to a community college there, which was YMCA. I also have attended Lincoln University in Jefferson City, Missouri and the Conservatory of Music in Chicago. HUNTLEY: So you are a musician? JERNIGAN: Yes. I love to sing. And, after military life I came back loving to do something, I went on to Booker T. Washington Business College and I got into data processing. HUNTLEY: So that' ; s your occupation? JERNIGAN: No, not exactly. At the time I was wanting to study something else and I worked in it a little while before breaking down with my illness. HUNTLEY: What community were you reared in? JERNIGAN: In the Woodlawn community which is on the northside of town? HUNTLEY: Sort of eastside. JERNIGAN: Eastside. Yes. By the airport. I was raised up by the Birmingham airport. There was a nice Black community there and that' ; s where I was. It was in the Woodlawn, Groveland area. HUNTLEY: How would you describe your community? JERNIGAN: It was an all Black neighborhood, completely Black. You knew each other. You went over each other' ; s house. You played what we called like in a circle, which our house faced everybody. And you played, you went to school together, you caught the bus together, it was a completely Black community. HUNTLEY: What kind of occupations did people have that lived in your community? JERNIGAN: Most of the people were, some of the women were like housewives and most of the men were like blue-collar workers with the exception of my dad and a couple of others. Daddy was the type that he might have been a little bit blue-collar but he went on to try to pursue himself to further jobs, like in insurance and he was in the ministry. And, also he worked with the Movement, the Birmingham Christian Movement. HUNTLEY: What was your father' ; s name? JERNIGAN: Rev. Charles Billups. HUNTLEY: Rev. Charles Billups. So he was very, very active in the Movement? JERNIGAN: Very active in the Movement. HUNTLEY: Yes. What do you remember about your high school days at Hayes High School? JERNIGAN: My high school days were quite different from a normal high school person. I had to travel with my father wherever they went, like to the rallies or whatever. So it was like high school there for school, back home, in the car. Going with him to rallies or whatever and when they were planning to have those meetings and planning what they were going to do about boycotting or whatever. HUNTLEY: Let' ; s just sort of back up just a bit. Talk a little about your father because you are referring to your father and you are going to the rallies and going to the meetings. We know that Rev. Billups was very, very active in the Movement. He was really just as active as almost anyone else in the city. As a person being so active and you being his daughter, tell me what impact did it have on you to have to be involved? Because you really didn' ; t have a choice as little kids. JERNIGAN: I didn' ; t have a choice. We were his children. There were a lot of things happening. The bomb threats. Constant, ugly telephone threats. Riding up to the house saying things or throwing things on the porch. And that made us have to be involved with him as if we were in it and working it too. HUNTLEY: Do you ever remember a time in your life when your father was not involved in the Movement? JERNIGAN: I do not remember a time that he was not involved. This was a everyday, seven day a week process of getting in the car with him, when we had to. He could not leave us at home. His thing was " ; not to leave us at home." ; So that would impact on me to like to really learn how to be like an overseer, grow up fast. My childhood was like, I wouldn' ; t say, shattered, but I was pushed to learned how to be mature. HUNTLEY: And you being the oldest, then you had to sort of oversee the rest of the children? JERNIGAN: Right. Make decisions that I didn' ; t think I was going to be able to make. HUNTLEY: How did that impact upon you in your life as a high school student? JERNIGAN: As a high school student I became very quiet. I was a little bit angry. Disgusted sometimes. HUNTLEY: Why were you? JERNIGAN: Because I missed out on a lot of things. I would come in and try to tell the students about certain things and I didn' ; t know how to tell them. In high school a lot of the teachers there were trying to avoid being in the Movement, so they would start doing little ugly things like saying, " ; Why is your daddy going to get us in trouble?" ; And " ; We' ; re not going to be getting out there." ; Little things like that. Then there were a lot of them that went along with him and they were very protective of me. A lot of them tried to understand and help me through that high school period of time with my subjects. HUNTLEY: There were times then when you had assignments and there were many times when you probably had difficulty in completing those. JERNIGAN: Right. I can tell you one story. I had a biology teacher and she gave me a " ; D" ; because I went back and I knew that I did not do the exact projects but I did study, so I did a couple of collections and an experiment of my own, and she said, " ; That' ; s just not good enough." ; But I was trying to tell her I did that because we used to have to go and sit with daddy at the Gaston Motel and wait for them to go in and out of those meetings and that was like 10:00 o' ; clock at night when we would take my mom to work. We would get back home at 6:00. And we were trying to get homework in a car, under a streetlight, well the motel light. And I could not prepare things or study like I wanted to. But I did do good on that project, but she just didn' ; t want to accept that. HUNTLEY: Can you give me a description of the typical day in your life as a child during the period - the height of the Movement with your father being so active? What would you do in the morning and how would that impact upon the rest of your day? What time would you leave home in the morning, what time would you get back? JERNIGAN: There were specials. At that time there were special buses that could come to the community to take you to high school. So we would get up like 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning, catch that special and get on it. That' ; s a full day at school. Daddy and them would probably tell the kids that we were going to go on these marches or whatever and they might come and get kids. School might be out at 12:00, or it would be a regular day but when we got home like 3:00 or 3:30 our time started. We had to start getting our lesson, prepare ourselves because we knew we had to leave with daddy that night. So you missed out on a lot of things. HUNTLEY: So you would simply anticipate practically every night going with your father? JERNIGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you were going to the mass meetings? JERNIGAN: To the mass meetings and to sit in the car while they were upstairs at the motel planning those meetings. HUNTLEY: " ; They?" ; Who are you referring to when you say " ; they?" ; JERNIGAN: It was my daddy, Martin Luther King, Rev. Shuttlesworth, Rev. Vivian, Andy Young, Rev. Smith and all the community people that got themselves involved. This involved deacons, people that had these blue-collar jobs that wanted to work with the Movement. Rev. Abernathy, Rev. Gardner, some of the meetings were even held at his church sometimes. HUNTLEY: Right. Now, when you attended the mass meetings, I' ; ve gotten different kinds of descriptions of what they were like. As a teenager, how would you describe a typical mass meeting? JERNIGAN: Well, since I' ; m a music type person and I' ; m creative, oh, they were very exciting, exhilarating, moving. But I was frightened. Because the people were dogmatic about what they were going to do. I knew they were dogmatic, because like I say, we saw them at the motel planning and they would come out and take those breaks and they would be talking about what they were going to do. And when they were in there and the choir would get to singing and people were actually shouting and say, " ; Yes, we are." ; This is women and men and they were involved. So yes, I was very exhilarated about the rallies but at the same time, I was kind of tired, kind of angry because I knew I had to come off a little bit of that " ; high" ; because I was thinking about my homework because I was very young. And, then, the other part I was always made to sit by some more children if their parents were there and my own sisters and my cousins and we would stay in line. We would stay on the bench. The other thing about the rally. After everything was over and all the people were gone, we were still there to maybe 1:00 and 2:00 maybe 3:00 in the morning. HUNTLEY: Why were you still there? JERNIGAN: Because the men that were involved decided to keep on talking about what they were going to do and making plans and they would stay sometimes in Rev. Smith' ; s office until 1:00 or 2:00 o' ; clock in the morning. Or either at 16th Street just talking on the steps and we' ; re still sitting in the car, or we' ; re sitting on the steps. We' ; re sitting on the sidewalk. We' ; re doing everything. HUNTLEY: Did you understand this? Were you understanding of what was happening? JERNIGAN: Yes. A little bit. Because there was one time when that was going on, sometimes they would come up and talk to us and say " ; How you all doing tonight?" ; And you know, kind of explain to us what was going on. And we would have morning meetings and daddy would sit us down and say " ; You know what, I don' ; t know how far this is going." ; HUNTLEY: You mean family meetings? JERNIGAN: Yes, with my father and he would tell us " ; This might be history. This is for your benefit. We are moving on. I will not have a child of mine coming up like me and that' ; s why your daddy is out there." ; HUNTLEY: Tell me about your mother. What was she doing? JERNIGAN: My mother was a very quiet person but very intelligent. She stood by my daddy real good. She helped write out things, corrected them and she would say, " ; Charles, you don' ; t say it like that, you do it like this." ; And she would help him with certain things. But at the same time my mother had a hard time because she was about one of the only wives that really worked as far as a regular job. HUNTLEY: She was not just a housewife? JERNIGAN: That' ; s right. She became a nurse at the University of Alabama which then was Hillman Hospital. And every time something would happen with the Movement, " ; All right nigger Billups. I know you ain' ; t going out there with your nigger husband." ; And they would give her pink slips, the works. She was working with intensive care babies, they might give her the worse ones. " ; And you are going to stay here until your job is done, I don' ; t care if you hear anything about your husband, you will not leave." ; The day that those young ladies got bombed from 16th Street, they had people down there identifying and everything. The first thing that came to mom. " ; Nurse Billups, I dare you to go downstairs. You are going to get fired. I know your nigger husband is down there." ; She said, this is how she was talked to from the head nurse. HUNTLEY: You said she called her " ; Nurse Billups?" ; JERNIGAN: Nurse Billups and nigger. They did use those words quite frequently and with her. HUNTLEY: And for the White nurses they always called them Miss or Mrs? JERNIGAN: No. They always called her nurse. HUNTLEY: I mean for White nurses? JERNIGAN: Oh yes. They had to call them by their names. Mrs. so and so or whatever. Dr. whoever. HUNTLEY: Your mother, did she normally work night shift? JERNIGAN: She normally worked night shift. She was working the 11:00 to 7:00 shift. So that meant she had to be there like 10:30. So that' ; s when we would leave out at 10:30. She would want to be there about 10:30 to get there 30 minutes before time. She was a very prompt person. She knew her job well. HUNTLEY: So then as you all were attending the mass meetings, she basically was at work or preparing to go to work? JERNIGAN: That' ; s right. And she would tell my father, " ; All right. I know you are just taking them with you to go work with me, but you are going to take them back home." ; He would say, " ; Yes." ; But he knew he was going to detour and take us on to a mass meeting or either we were going to go to Smith and Gaston Motel. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that experience. After the meetings, and then there would be a meeting after the meeting by the leaders of the Movement, your father being one of those. Other children who had actually participated in the mass meetings, they were now able to go home, and you were still out waiting? JERNIGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you ever have the experience of just talking with Dr. King or any of the other ministers? JERNIGAN: Oh, yes. That' ; s what was so memorable. And now that I' ; m 45 years old and I look back at that and I say we were just treated like ordinary people and holding conversations because you are youth. And you know you are going to give people respect. We already thought they were something, like really tops. But not in the manner that I thought history was being made and all this other stuff was going to come about and books would be written and everything. But, we had a chance to sit down at the table with them and others and eat snacks. And, one time we were there during our lunch time. We went one Saturday. But this was like a every night thing. And they would even bring, because at the motel you could smell the food just cooking. And they would tell them to bring stuff out to us. And, then, in return sometime they would tell us to come in there and eat with them. So we got a chance to sit down at what I called a " ; Feasting Table" ; and eat with these people while they are still talking about the plans they are going to have for the Movement. The ones that they accomplish. The ones they didn' ; t accomplish so well. I got a chance to see them really cry about something that didn' ; t go well. HUNTLEY: Did you ever remember them leaving and going to a demonstration and returning after that demonstration? JERNIGAN: When they would have several of the demonstrations, especially when they would get the children, go to the high schools and the children would come from Parker and Hayes, whatever. I did not go. I would go back home. Because we knew we were going to be leaving that night. We would come back. And after one of those nights when all of those children got put in jail, a couple of people got hurt or whatever, like I said, we would come back and we would get a chance to see them on a balcony, leaning against the balcony saying " ; Man, that was just a little bit too much." ; And the children were down there. And I actually saw them cry. Then I actually saw them be a little happy about something that did go through. HUNTLEY: You had mentioned earlier something about the blue-jean suits? JERNIGAN: Yes. Of course you know we are youth. We are 12, 11, 10. You have got to find something to make it kind of comical because you are going through so many changes. So when they decided to wear those blue jean suits, they were some spiffy folks but we are going to start calling them the Blue-jean Brigade because they were all just dressed up as if they were in the military. I mean they had their stuff starched and everything. And we said, " ; Oh, well yeah, there goes the Blue-jean Brigade." ; We would even holler it out the window. Because like I say, you are youth then. You are going to do something that you don' ; t have no business. So when we would see them we would holler out the window, " ; Oh, well, there goes the Blue-jean Brigade." ; I can remember the suits that they wore. And once when I went to the museum down at Atlanta and I can remember that suit very well that Martin Luther King wore. And I used to really like seeing them -- after I knew what they were doing they started explaining, so I used to like to see them doing it because it stood out. And it was like their uniform. They were wearing them to let them know this is what they were doing to represent their Black men working for the Black people and it was just amazing. HUNTLEY: I normally ask a question about the relationship between the Birmingham Police Department and the community. JERNIGAN: Oh wow. I would say the police department didn' ; t like us at all. We were total outcasts. There were several days that we would be riding along in the car with my daddy and they would just stop us. I was wondering why and how. How did they even know it was our car? But I found out in later years they had marks on the cars. They knew what was going on. They would stop to get my daddy out of the car, give him a ticket. Take it back. Give him a ticket and take it back. That kind of thing. And this was like sometime at night, during the day. We could even be going to the grocery store and he might get stopped. So they were not nice at all. HUNTLEY: Did they ever come to your house? JERNIGAN: Yes. One night daddy had been to a mass meeting and the police department was out there then talking about how much noise or whatever. Anyway, he touched the collar of one of the policemen and so they say he was insubordinating an officer. So they decided to come to the house and get him. So they come in about 10 or 11 of them. They knock on the door and knocked the screen door down and come on in like " ; this my house," ; and come on in. My mother was at a mission meeting. You know, then you used to go from house to house. She was at a mission meeting and they had to call her to come back up the hill. In that timing they had took him out, threw him up against the car. One of them standing there is taking my sister' ; s Zero candy bar and she bit him. She bit the policeman. HUNTLEY: She bit the policeman? JERNIGAN: Yes. And he got up to kind of do his hand and hit her and he said, " ; Kill me first before you hit my child." ; And they said my dad went up and got my mom and brought them up the hill. But my sister, who is Helene Renee, went out fighting, thinking she could fight those 11. HUNTLEY: Did they arrest her? JERNIGAN: No. Just kind of pushed her back and my daddy, that' ; s when he said, " ; Take me, do whatever you want to me but don' ; t hurt my children." ; We were having dinner. Daddy had come home that night and we were sitting down as a family and we were having dinner and they just rushed right in. And, at the same time, the neighbors said, " ; Oh, Lord. You' ; re fixing to get us killed." ; " ; Oh, my God." ; HUNTLEY: Who were they referring to? JERNIGAN: People in our neighborhood referring to daddy. And at that point, a lot of people in the neighborhood didn' ; t want to babysit us. So that' ; s why we had to be carried with him. HUNTLEY: Why did they not want to babysit you? JERNIGAN: Because they thought probably the policeman would come in the neighborhood and bother them too. HUNTLEY: So they were afraid to even be associated with you? JERNIGAN: Right. Some of them were very cooperative and some of them were very low down. I hate to say that word, but they didn' ; t even want to hear about the Movement. We were outcasts. " ; There goes that Rev. Billups and he' ; s going to get us in trouble." ; HUNTLEY: What kind of relationship then did you have with children your age? JERNIGAN: I had friends. And they liked me. But it was like still I was maturing a little bit more than them and it was like I was talking about things that they weren' ; t even thinking about. HUNTLEY: Were there any of the children in your neighborhood or in your school that was involved in the Movement? JERNIGAN: Yes. Whenever they would say about " ; Come on and let' ; s go boycott," ; a lot of them would go. A lot of them would go back home. It was not a time to go back home from school. I saw that inside stuff. A lot of them did go. They went and they cooperated. But a lot of them would go back or make up any excuse. There was one other time, the night that daddy got beat up. He was working at Hayes Aircraft at the time. And, some kind of way he wanted to take a shower and he said this is how it started. So the showers were all filled where the Black people would go, so he went on over to the White side. And from my memory I think he said they waited about a week later. But anyway there was a neighbor that he rode with and what they did, they picked him and the neighbor up. They blind folded both of them but they let him back off at his house. HUNTLEY: Let the neighbor off at his house? JERNIGAN: Yes. And this man lived like five doors down from us. And they took daddy off which was right where the mall -- because I even get cringed when I go to Eastwood Mall now. When it was woods then and that' ; s where he got beat up. The Klu Klux Klan or the Citizens Council took him there and beat him up. Chained him to a tree and beat him up. But what I looked at was this man was five doors down, knowing me and mom and all of us in the house and he did not come and tell us anything. HUNTLEY: So, when did you find that your father got beat up? JERNIGAN: Daddy crawled to the highway and do you know, a policeman was there to pick him up. And it was like, y' ; all through doing what y' ; all doing to this nigger, and took him on to the hospital and Rev. Smith followed from there and he told momma what had happened. Of course that was a shock to me. That stunned me too. Because when he finally came home I just saw all these marks on him and everything and he was still telling us. Something like what Christ did. " ; Forgive them, they don' ; t know what they were doing." ; And I was saying, " ; How?" ; And I was in fifth grade then and that really shocked me. I was angry at a point all of my life that I wanted to fight. Like now, I told you I had been in the military. If I had a M-16 like I learned how to shoot then, I would have used it with no problem. Oh, yes. I probably would have used it. I was just that angry because I didn' ; t know how to tell anybody what I was feeling. HUNTLEY: Well, what do you remember as a result of that and in your returning to school did your teachers talk about it? Did your friends know? JERNIGAN: I had one teacher that was very good to me and the other school counselor, Mrs. Helen Heath. HUNTLEY: This is at Hayes High School? JERNIGAN: Hayes, yes. And I would go in Mrs. Heath' ; s office and just sit straight like this and tears would just be rolling down my face and that' ; s her way of even listening to me. She understood. Then there were other people, neighbors who really knew daddy and they were involved like Mrs. Radney. She kind of stuck behind us and some of the neighbors and other ministers when we practically at times stayed over Rev. Smith' ; s house with Mrs. Smith, Mrs. Hendricks. Folks like that. These were our nurturing people. So when you really wanted to ball up and cry and me, I was always the loudest and when I cry and I really get mad, I tear up things. I would say these people were kind of able to calm me down. But I could not control it. When I really got tore up, I was tore up. I mean I was a young shouting girl and 10 and 12 years old and I always shouted or whatever. HUNTLEY: Always very emotional? JERNIGAN: Yes. And even then I learned how to hum Dr. Watts to keep me out of trouble. HUNTLEY: To do what? JERNIGAN: To get me out of trouble and stop from maybe cursing or saying something ugly. Because they were really on to you about these older people and you are supposed to take your place. But then, at a point where you were just angry you say, " ; I want to do something about this, I' ; m angry, I don' ; t like what' ; s going on." ; HUNTLEY: Now, you, and your siblings were never arrested? JERNIGAN: No. I was never arrested but we was always in and around it. We had the involvement. Like when they said they were going to Selma or Cullman or something like that, we' ; re in the car and we' ; re getting the experience of them actually going in there and we standing up there like nuts and they are going in there. And they are going into the back getting sandwiches and stuff and hear them calling " ; We don' ; t serve niggers and no nigger children." ; I didn' ; t get that involvement by going inside of jail and being locked up or nothing like that. But I saw them doing this and saw the experience. It was hands on that I can' ; t explain. HUNTLEY: Well, you had an experience that others didn' ; t have because you were actually there. JERNIGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you actually saw it. JERNIGAN: Yes. I saw them slap somebody. Talking about, " ; We don' ; t serve nobody, get your nigger butt out of here." ; And if this was not on tape, I' ; d say a couple of other words they said. " ; And you can' ; t talk, you ignorant. We don' ; t even want your money." ; And I saw them do that. I mean it was nothing for daddy and Rev. Vivian and them and Rev. Smith to stop at some store and they knew that Black people were not suppose to be in there. And they go there and say, " ; We are going to get y' ; all a hamburger." ; HUNTLEY: How did you feel about that? JERNIGAN: I was frightened. I was really frightened because I was frightened for my dad. HUNTLEY: Did you ever wish that they would not do that? JERNIGAN: Sometimes, yes. Because I was frightened. A lot of times I thought it was the boldest thing to do but a lot of times I was frightened because they were cruel. When one White person -- it' ; s not no one White person that comes after you, they bring the group. Where one Black man might stand there, that' ; s what I learned, he might stand there and you know, like accept so many slaps, but they got to bring their group with them to get what they want to have going. And even though, I saw, the White women that used to be behind the counters and it realized that they stayed no more than in the projects and they weren' ; t even educated and trying to -- you know I saw that and that' ; s what really got me. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the Easter' ; s and Christmas' ; that you couldn' ; t go to the stores. JERNIGAN: Well, I must tell you we will learn why Jesus was here, because daddy said it wasn' ; t our birthday and we weren' ; t going to by anything out of those stores because they were boycotting. So you know how you see all the little programs, like the dolls and this, that and the other and we might get something but it was very much after Christmas at some other store. He frequented Atlantic Mills a lot. But we didn' ; t get anything on that day and no Easter. Forget it. Because that meant going and buying something and trading with people that did not want to trade with you. So of course, you know, you see all the little people going out with their dresses on, which I loved the silk organza at that time and the stand out slips and everything and the little flowers in their hair. And we had to wear this and dress up in this and it was like, " ; Gosh, I don' ; t want to get up and say my Easter speech in this dress." ; And then my feet, I hate to put this here. I have bad feet. I am flat footed and it' ; s like Parisian' ; s and Pizitz were the only stores that sold those good shoes, but no, no, no. We had to pick other stores because he wasn' ; t going in that store. So guys used to be just walking behind me and say, Oh, knocked-kneeded Charlotte and her two left feet." ; And I would be up at the house just crying. But I knew what was going on. But it was like a child then, I could not take that. HUNTLEY: There was an experience when you were in school when you had a project to do? JERNIGAN: Yes, and getting ready for something. One of my teachers was a sewing teacher -- home economics. She told me she was going to give me an " ; F." ; And she knew what was going on. I mean these teachers knew. HUNTLEY: She knew that your father was -- JERNIGAN: She knew that daddy was involved because my daddy was one of these parents that came, talking about parents don' ; t go to PTO or whatever, oh, he stayed at the school. Every other day. He was preaching about something, about the kids and the youth. " ; Y' ; all need to come out of here and pay attention." ; I mean he was at the school. All right. She knew that. And she told me -- my project was to make a jacket, dress coat and a dress, you know with a jacket and dress, whatever with bound buttonholes and everything, which is very hard. So I said, " ; I cannot get my material which you want me to get from that place, my daddy is going to have to get it from somewhere else." ; My aunt from out of town even offered to send me the material in the mail. She said she didn' ; t want that, she wanted the kind that was right there at Pizitz. So I went down there and I got it anyway. HUNTLEY: Now, this is at a time when the boycott is going on? JERNIGAN: Right at the heat of the boycott. And Charlotte goes in there and gets linen material, I don' ; t think I like linen anything today. For some reason it bites me. Because I got a whipping. That evening I got a whipping. HUNTLEY: How did he find out that you had gone? JERNIGAN: Because he saw the material and the tag from the store. HUNTLEY: How did he approach you? JERNIGAN: Oh, I got a whipping. All right. HUNTLEY: Did he talk with you? JERNIGAN: Yes. He cried. He cried real bad afterwards. Because I guess he was thinking now that I' ; m grown and he was thinking of all they were going through and this woman made my child. But he went to the school. And my daddy was a very bold person and he confronted her. And even to this day when my children was going to school, something I didn' ; t understand, I learned from that. I would go and find out, " ; Why did you do that? You put pressure on this child." ; And out of all of that, I still really didn' ; t make a good grade because she had something against us. She just didn' ; t go along with the Movement or nothing. She aggravated me. She told me I didn' ; t know how to dress and all that. And then, after that my teeth were messed up at the same time, so she was one of them that made me started doing things knowing what was going on. HUNTLEY: You were affected by an illness that you really didn' ; t understand at that time? JERNIGAN: Yes. Now, they have found out I have Lupus. And Lupus is a connective tissue disease. Then I was having headaches, losing my hair, bizarre attitude, just sick. At night, tired. Then we didn' ; t know. We didn' ; t find out I had Lupus until I got into the military. But when we looked back at the same symptoms, and, then, I was really getting sick. I would get fevers, cold, constantly stayed in the women' ; s advisor at high school, having to be sick and brought back home. And daddy used to have to leave from where he was and come get me and take me back home. I ran low blood, everything, but I was sick. And, then, all of a sudden I would get well. That' ; s how Lupus is. So, now it has crippled me. HUNTLEY: When did you go into the military? JERNIGAN: I went in the military in ' ; 75. HUNTLEY: What branch? JERNIGAN: Army. HUNTLEY: What did you do in the military? JERNIGAN: I was clerk, which you do a little bit of everything as far as paperwork. I was a Morning Clerk. You keep up with all the records of your company and battalion. At the same time, me being Miss Creative, I would always be singing and some kind of way one of the officers heard me singing and I got picked for that -- to sing with the army for about a year and a half. I was always doing something. And that part I really much enjoyed because I got a chance to really perform in what you call in front of people of all nationalities. And to feel good about it, daddy had always told us to respect nationalities. Because in the Movement it was many nationalities there. Black, White, Indian, Chicano. I mean they were there. Oriental. And, then, I went to the army and saw the same thing. And being able to perform and do that in front of them. But you know when I was in the military, every time they would play the Star Spangled Banner, I would break down and start crying. And the guys would ask me why. I' ; d say, every time I see you and knew the way they even do you all now, I cannot forget those days behind. So one morning, while in the military, I had acted like I was in church. We were doing the Star Spangled Banner and I decided to shout. So one man said, " ; Out of all of my years in the military I' ; ve never seen a woman get down on the floor and shout." ; And I was shouting then too. And, then, I could do a high " ; C" ; soprano and everything. It was like I knew about the passed and knew what was going on until I just got involved with being in the military and seeing these people and looking at them. And I said, " ; Uh-huh. Now, I' ; m matching everything up. I see how they make rules overnight. I see how they do things and how they say you can do it and you can' ; t." ; And, then, while I was in their choir, I remember one Sunday, my captain, he was from Czechoslovakia. And, in the army everybody is prim and proper in church. And they say, " ; We' ; re having church, and we' ; re going to talk about." ; So I did Precious Lord as if I was down here at New Pilgrim again. So when we were going out of the church, his wife had just come and she could not speak any English. She said, " ; I don' ; t know, but God Love, God Love." ; And they said, " ; Don' ; t never let Charlotte sing or be over nothing, because she is going to have the whole roof." ; HUNTLEY: So you didn' ; t just have chapel? JERNIGAN: No. They were trying to learn at that time how to integrate women with men. So I told them you are going to have to do that. I said, " ; That' ; s what' ; s important. You are going to have to let women be with men on these floors. And, then, you won' ; t have all these problems or anything." ; And I had a lot of confrontations with Whites. Real bad. And what I would do to get out of trouble, they would say, " ; Let Charlotte come down here and help us, because she is going to start humming one of those Dr. Watts, and that comes from slavery. That is true. HUNTLEY: What do you mean " ; humming Dr. Watts?" ; JERNIGAN: A charge to keep I have, a God to glorify and Father, I stretch my hand to thee, no other help I know. You do that and a Black person, they' ; re going to move. They' ; re not going to ask you anything. I never got an Article 15 or whatever. And, if a Black guy got in trouble, I would knock on his door and whispered to him, " ; Please don' ; t do that." ; I even, not really lied for anybody, but there was once where a Black guy was going to get in trouble -- this White girl said he had took her money. And I said, " ; She gave it to you, you took it, but why did you take it?" ; But, at the same time I went and I stood up for him and I knew how to do it from my experiences in the past. I said, " ; She gave it to him and she took it. She gave it to him. He does not need to get an Article 15." ; So they would always say whatever goes on, call Charlotte Jernigan, she' ; ll help you. I thought she was going to start humming one of those Dr. Watts and they are going to leave all of us alone. So that was some of the experience that I had in the military. HUNTLEY: Let me back up just a bit. 1963 in Birmingham was sort of the highlight of the Movement with the demonstrations and, then, finally with the bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church. Do you remember that? JERNIGAN: Yes. I remember that. We were home that Sunday. Thank God we didn' ; t go anywhere with daddy. When they said they had bombed the church, he went immediately down there. There was a sad feeling. I felt as those there was a dark, dark, dark shadow over Birmingham and it wasn' ; t going to move. That hurt me too. That was about the hardest thing I ever heard of in my life. And, then, to know these people who were involved and that was their child. HUNTLEY: Did you know the children? JERNIGAN: I didn' ; t know them, per se, close, close. But you probably had seen them or talked to them, but not close. But, I new dad and Chris McNair was kind of close there. Because he was always doing photography. And what got me about that, like I told you once before, when they brought those children to the hospital for identification, they went up there and they got momma immediately and said, " ; Your nigger husband is downstairs, and you ain' ; t going down there." ; And this is like, how did they know who she was? That' ; s why I try to tell people, you got to read between the lines. Never think you can get by with anything, these folks know sometime when you went to the bathroom, so don' ; t play with it. I tell people that now when they say, " ; I got it made, I got it made." ; When they want you off that job that you think you got, they will get you. They are already writing everything down. I mean, I learned that from that. Because they didn' ; t know exactly, I thought who momma was, but she said they immediately came up there and told her, " ; Don' ; t you go down there. Your nigger husband." ; And this is on a professional job. This is the University of Alabama. HUNTLEY: What is your most memorable remembrance of the Movement? JERNIGAN: What just sticks in my head? HUNTLEY: Yes. JERNIGAN: Both times, when my daddy got beat, slammed up against the car, When he got beat up and had to come home. HUNTLEY: Wait a minute, " ; slammed up against the car?" ; JERNIGAN: You know when I told you they came to the house? HUNTLEY: Yes. JERNIGAN: And being at that motel and sitting there and getting out of the car and being told not to get out of the car. It was like in jail. It was a horrible feeling. HUNTLEY: Sitting in the car, waiting for your dad who was inside trying to prepare for the Movement? JERNIGAN: Right. HUNTLEY: And he is trying to liberate Black people, but by the same token it appeared from your perspective that you were imprisoned? JERNIGAN: Right. And I was told even then, " ; You' ; re in charge." ; That meant, if anything went wrong I would get fussed at. The most memorable time comes when I was 13. I used to like to see the Freedom Riders come in because these were college students and we were 13, 14 and 10 years old and we' ; re looking out there at the people passing by and they would come over to the car and talk to us. Bring us something from out of the kitchen or whatever. And there were a lot of racists then. And, then, the most memorable time is knowing that this was so important is meeting all those ministers. They had reached their plateau and made a contribution back. Men such as Martin Luther King. Rev. Shuttlesworth, Rev. Smith. HUNTLEY: N. H. Smith? JERNIGAN: Yes. I saw them as young men, and I have had a chance to see them get old. And, for some reason when I look at them, they kind of still look like that person. They still look like those people that we had to mind. I got a chance to see that strong Black man from looking at that. I mean, I saw them up and down. I saw them plan out something and really work it because I could see him working it and they would go out the next day and they would really do it. And it is kind of comical now, but one of the funniest things was when me and my cousin decided to fight outside of the car. We didn' ; t want to sit in the car that long. And so we decided to come on the outer side of the car and she shook the car. We had a Ford then. And she shook the car and first, who we called Pot bellied, he came down first and he said, " ; Aren' ; t you all Billups children? Aren' ; t you supposed to be in that car?" ; We said, " ; No, we ain' ; t getting in this car. Not tonight. It' ; s too hot, we tired." ; He said, " ; Okay. I guess I have to go get him." ; And after that Rev. Smith comes down and he tries to stop us. And, then, here comes Martin Luther King. And if that floor of that ground could have broken up. Because he was a soft speaker but yet a stirring person. " ; What' ; s wrong with you young ladies, how are you all doing tonight?" ; And we were trying to figure out what to do next because we were so embarrassed. He said, " ; I think I' ; m going to go up there and get Billups and tell him he needs to come down and attend to you all. You all are kind of tired." ; So he had them to go in and get us some ice cream and after that it was a good break. And he sat there and he talked to us. And, this wasn' ; t one night, this was every night almost. And, I' ; m sitting there and I see the people when they were really excited and I then I would go to schools and one little girl said, " ; Let me touch your hand, the hand that touched Martin Luther King." ; And I told them they were just ordinary men. They didn' ; t want no praise. All they were about was for getting something done for their people. And that' ; s pretty much what they told us. But that experience really sticks with me and I get tickled how we just got embarrassed by this man. He didn' ; t embarrass us, he thought it was kind of funny. And, in return, I liked those times, which I missed, because you understood that world and I liked to hear what was going on and I liked to keep up. And, when daddy got killed and everything, in Chicago, like that. Daddy exposed us to a lot. We got a chance to meet people, eat with them. Go to their homes and see people in different places. I' ; ve seen people where they started out with nothing who were in the Movement and they are doing well now. HUNTLEY: Let me just ask you -- you were never arrested. But when the buses finally desegregated, you did ride the buses. Can you tell me anything about that? JERNIGAN: Now, that' ; s when I did my thing, on the bus. While the buses were being boycotted they would make you pay, in front and walk around to the side. So me and -- HUNTLEY: They would make you pay in the front and walk to the side to get on the bus? JERNIGAN: Yes. I used to get bus tokens and bus cards. So this particular day we get on where Sloss Furnace is now. We are fighting on the bus because we didn' ; t want to get around to the back because when we got back there, I was bold then and go up and hit folks and come on back, because they didn' ; t know. These silly White people would be sitting up in the front standing squashed, trying to keep from sitting down with people and didn' ; t want you up there. We used to do some silly stuff. We even moved the signs around a couple of times. But, at the same time we' ; d hit and fight. And, then, there would be people on the bus, Black people would say, " ; I' ; m going to tell your daddy on you." ; HUNTLEY: Who would you hit and fight? JERNIGAN: White people, the White kids. Because they were on there getting ready to go home too. Sometimes they had to catch that bus. JERNIGAN: So one day, this was we were going because I told you we used to have to stay with my grandmother sometimes when it was just necessary, unless we could not go with daddy. So we got on what you call 17 Irondale. And you know, then they had the bus, what' ; s that little thing, when you are changing from one side of town to the other? HUNTLEY: Transfer. JERNIGAN: Transfer. Me and my cousin, which was a guy and the young lady cousin we had got on. We told them we weren' ; t going to pay our money and go around to the back. So we got in the front. So I was good and strong then. I bumped and I pushed and I knocked folks down. I even tied a White girl' ; s hair up on the thing you hold on. I tied her hair on to the thing and dared her to move. And I tied it tight and I said, " ; Don' ; t you say not one word." ; I said, " ; I' ; m going to kick you." ; I mean I was just that -- I said, " ; This is the time to take out my anger." ; HUNTLEY: And this is Rev. Billups daughter? JERNIGAN: Yes. So we get on the bus and the bus man just fussing at us so one day he decided to get us. " ; Where is your transfer and I want your bus card. I want your D-A-M-N bus card." ; Me and my cousin tore up the bus card and we ate it and swallowed it. Right between where they called like the gap between Gate City and going into Irondale. I know you all have seen it. It' ; s where the train track is. You know Lawson Field is over from there now. Well, right there is the change over from Birmingham and we had to " ; Well, that' ; s all right. I' ; ll never let you off the bus." ; So this man decides to ride us all over by Eastwood Mall and back again. When we got back around to Irondale again, I said, " ; Man, I fixing to mow your head right here in this thing for holding me." ; " ; I' ; m going to call the police." ; I said, " ; You might as well call him, what more can you do to me?" ; So my cousin preceded to kind of take his head and stick it out of the window. HUNTLEY: The bus driver' ; s head or his head? JERNIGAN: And we left him there. HUNTLEY: Or his head, because he was embarrassed? JERNIGAN: No. No. We put it there. My cousin put it there. HUNTLEY: Oh, you put the bus driver' ; s head through the window? JERNIGAN: Yes. And he left it there. Then when they integrated the buses they decided they were going to get on the bus and we could get on the normal way, but they didn' ; t want to sit by you. So the White kids, especially from Woodlawn, they decided that since Woodlawn was all white, then they put their books down in the seat and I just shoved them off to the floor. " ; You can' ; t sit here the book can' ; t sit here." ; I would take my leg and put it up on the thing and I said, " ; You know you better not put it on my leg. No way." ; And, then, even then I started hollering, singing Dr. Watts. Because I always liked to sing anyway. Another young lady I had to do her the same way. She decided, she called me a bitch and, " ; you all don' ; t need no rights no way." ; And she was coming from--but she was coming from there. Her parents on the same level as everybody else. " ; You all don' ; t need anything. You all don' ; t even take baths or nothing like that." ; I said, " ; Well, I tell you what, sister, we don' ; t take baths -- I' ; m going to show you how you supposed to take a bath in a shower." ; And I tied her hair up. I loved to fool with that long hair. I tied her hair up on the things you hold on to. I tied her hair up on there. And, some years back when you used to have the football games and the TB games? HUNTLEY: Yes. JERNIGAN: Now, that was a sad experience for me. I was a little girl then. I think I was about 8 or 9. HUNTLEY: At Rickwood Field? JERNIGAN: Yes. And there was no where to sit on the bus. I was so tired. And I fell getting on the bus and daddy sat me down. He moved the sign and a man came back there and slapped him. HUNTLEY: What was his response? JERNIGAN: He slapped him back and he said, " ; My child is sitting here and she is going to sit down." ; He said, " ; She' ; s hurt herself and she is going to sit down. So you might as well go on and beat me right here. Oh boy, that really got me. HUNTLEY: So what you were doing then, when you got in high school, you were remembering those kinds of experiences? JERNIGAN: A lot of us. A lot of the stuff that I would see them do, like going to those places outside around Birmingham going to get lunches and stuff like that, and I remember that. I mean just seeing my daddy go talk about. You know, he would try to get -- you know how you would go into regular business and stuff and they knew them. And they would call them all sorts of names. And it' ; s like, I don' ; t know. I hate to say when I got in the military a little bit and got a chance to really learn how to shoot and I said, " ; Lord, please forgive me." ; But you know what I used to learn. I shot those 425 meter targets thinking about the 60s and my drill sergeant said, " ; How did you do that?" ; And all I could think about was when they was beating up people. But I learned, I still, out of all of that I still learned how to love. I learned how to balance out my anger. HUNTLEY: Now, your family moved from Birmingham to Chicago during the time that Dr. King was marching. Can you tell me just a bit about that? JERNIGAN: Yes. When daddy, they went out to Cicero, they hurt them up real bad. HUNTLEY: Now, he had moved to Chicago? JERNIGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Had he moved to Chicago specifically to get involved and sort of lay the ground work for Dr. King? JERNIGAN: Right. He and others were the first ones to move there. HUNTLEY: Then eventually Dr. King would come and they would have the march through Cicero and the Chicago movement would take place, Operation Bread Basket? JERNIGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: But he had been one that laid foundation for it? JERNIGAN: He and others. HUNTLEY: Yes. Jesse Jackson I remember. HUNTLEY: Right. And that' ; s when I remember -- I met him one time I think in Birmingham, but that was when I really got to meet him was when I got into Chicago and I realized then he was just 27 years old. And that really gets me too. That' ; s when I got a chance to meet another set of people and these people were a little bit younger than them and they were dogmatic too. So daddy was up here. And what I did -- I was told that we needed a rest, so I didn' ; t move completely to Chicago with the family. I lived in Cleveland for a little while and went to school and then I later on joined them. And I got involved with Fellowship Baptist Church and everything with Rev. Evans and everybody. It was just like being here at home at New Pilgrim. So that became another big home setting for us. And movement going on again. It' ; s just that I' ; m a little older and can see things a little bit clearer. But we attended then Operation Breadbasket every Saturday morning. But then it was because we kind of wanted to. That was a good history information when we realized what was going on. So that was a like a joy to go there even though it was still dangerous. HUNTLEY: Were you in Chicago during the Cicero march? JERNIGAN: Yes. I was there. I was there. I always commuted back and forth. Sometimes I was there and daddy came home all swollen up and everything and that' ; s when Martin Luther King got hurt, too. As a matter of fact they did them real bad. And what hurt me about that. This was supposed to be in Chicago and I was able to come back to Birmingham and telling them " ; They had been worse than we are." ; I said, " ; They' ; re are not even allowed in certain parts of the town." ; And then I realized people were right in Chicago that had never even been to the beach. They were living right there in that ghetto. So that was a down break for me. They hadn' ; t even attended some of the best schools. They were in the ghetto and you talking about welfare and hunger, it was horrible, than it was here in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: So your father was very active in Chicago as well? JERNIGAN: Yes. He was very active. And I got a chance to see the Black Panther movement, the Disciples. All those kids. They are talking about gangs now, we saw them then. HUNTLEY: But your father though was killed. JERNIGAN: In Chicago. Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me anything about that? JERNIGAN: All we know, they found him and as far as I know it was on the southside in Hyde Park. We do not know what happened. But I do know when the Movement started quieting down and people started reaching out, he got a job with National Tea Company. And remember now, daddy only had a degree from Booker T, but he was always doing something and he wound up with one of the top jobs. And even then, he first started off in personnel and he started going around in these ghettos and stuff and hired people, you know, teaching them how to take the test and everything. And, then, after that he moved on up. But there were a couple of people there that told him, " ; You moving too fast." ; Even this is in Chicago now, and " ; You still a nigger." ; And they were saying we don' ; t know how you are getting this far and you got a bull shit degree. Just talking and we even got a chance to see that. But anyway they found him dead and they worked with it for awhile and, then, they didn' ; t work with it anymore. HUNTLEY: You never found out what happened? JERNIGAN: No. HUNTLEY: How would you evaluate the Movement? What benefits do you think were realized by you, your family and the community as a result of the efforts that your father was making? JERNIGAN: You mean, what do I feel now? Was it worth it? HUNTLEY: Yes. JERNIGAN: Did it accomplish anything? Yes. Definitely. I look at things -- the work was done, the foundation was laid, it was worked for. It' ; s almost like when somebody gives you the book. They wrote it for you. They put it there in front of you, but you got to open it. Okay. So it' ; s like, here it is. We were just like little slaves then. They went through their part. Somebody else went through their part and these people went through their part, now you take the book and open it. But I look at it as even some of the people, not mainstream in the Movement. Some of the people, not in the Movement, but kind of when they saw the things was all right, just went on and sat down. They figured out that " ; We ain' ; t got to go no further." ; So that made people kind of scatter themselves and started doing things like I' ; ve got it made and not keep working with the program and looking for somebody to work with it and it' ; s already been laid. Any young man, any young woman could get up and take over from where it left us. So it did benefit. We are in school. We are studying books. We are taking some people for a different thing. Because now, those same strong men and strong men who are even stronger now, I feel if they work with it now, can get out of here, they can clean up these neighborhoods. It' ; s not hard to do. You now if you clean some White people up, you can clean these kids up. All they want is you just talk to -- listen to them. And you tell them. People are not telling them. They got their jobs and they didn' ; t tell them how it happen. Because I' ; ve talked to children and they don' ; t know nothing about what went on, some of them. I know I have always given my children step by step and if my daughter was here now, she would tell you. And the result of it as far as daddy' ; s thing and his immediate family, my daughter attends the University of Alabama. She has traveled abroad and studied. She writes well and very out there. She is going to try anything. She is dogmatic. She has been in the reserves. She wants to do it. She is headstrong. My son, he' ; s headstrong. They are both in school. And one of the most important things, my children know how to read and write. And I mean read and write with intelligence. They know how to deal with people. If my son or daughter were here, I' ; m talking about the benefits from that, they would be able to hold you this same interview and talk to you and I think that is worth more than -- you know, like when daddy said, " ; How many went through?" ; But when he sees his own grandchildren made it. He has two more in North Carolina, Kara and Robert. And Robert is a straight A student in North Carolina where we know that' ; s still White folks and he' ; s making it, he' ; s roughing it. My little niece gets in, I mean they try everything. I mean from cello to talking, dancing, studying. They are not afraid to get on a bus or train, airplane by themselves and go. So in result I see my daddy, his dream really being fulfilled, you know, because they are out there. His four grandchildren, if he was back here and he could see them, I always tell my mom, all four of them, all four of them would always be in trouble because they know how to point their finger and say, " ; I' ; m going to do it and I' ; m going to be in it." ; So that result makes me feel good. You know, the other result, I' ; m glad even though I have my illness with Lupus I cannot go and meet every rally meeting or whatever now, I would love to get involved, but what I do is tutor and my tutoring is called motivation. I tell you to bring your child to my house. I cannot go up the steps. I attend Sardis now and where we have tutoring, you have to go up some stairs at the Family Life Center. I cannot make it up those stairs. The children come to the house. I have opened my house up to that. They come there. I teach them little artwork. I make them stand in the mirror and talk to themselves and say I' ; m somebody and their name. I teach them how to read and I motivate them that " ; Yes, you are going to get your biology and yes, you are going to get that history. Because, if you don' ; t you are wasting air time." ; HUNTLEY: You have obviously experienced an awful lot. There were times when you sat in the car and you were upset with your father. There were times when you were riding with your father and Rev. Smith and others and you saw them ostracized. You saw your father slapped on the bus, you saw your father beaten. If you had the power and you could go back, what would you change? JERNIGAN: I could not change -- I would not change the way they tried to conquer what they were conquering. I would not tell my daddy, " ; Don' ; t do it." ; I would tell him, " ; Keep on." ; No way I would say, " ; I' ; d rather be at home with my dolls, my favorite dolls and going out with this little guy down the street or having the little parties." ; No. I am so glad that God let me have that experience. I didn' ; t say man. I said God let me have that experience to see that because I would not be the person that I am today. And no I wouldn' ; t change anything because I got a chance to see life as it is. HUNTLEY: Well, finally, this has been a great afternoon. I' ; ve learned so much. Is there anything else you would like to add that we have not dealt with that was associated with the Movement? JERNIGAN: Yes. I would like to add that I' ; m glad I was able to contribute something to the museum and hope even further things. I hope I will be able to be called upon when they have groups there and I can come down and talk to the children. I love talking to children. I hope I can continue to be invited to schools to give one-on-one talks like I' ; ve done. I' ; m doing that now too, with Black and White kids. There was one I did and a little White guy came up to me and he hugged and he said he was not intending to be in the group. I said, " ; You will not, you will come and be with me." ; I' ; m going to have the kings on each side, Black and White." ; At the end, that poor child wanted to take me to the cafeteria and sit me down, he treated me like I was a queen. He said, " ; Lady I ain' ; t never seen no lady like you before." ; Because I was hugging them. I told them I didn' ; t care if they didn' ; t have on deodorant that day. We were all going to hug and I make them hold hands and clench each other after my presentations and I would like to keep that up. The other thing, people who have the time and the knowledge, I want them to come back out. Now, I didn' ; t tell you to conquer the world, but contribute what you can and make sure it' ; s from your heart. There is still a lot of hurting people out there. There' ; s a lot of things, people do not understand what' ; s happening. And it' ; s not that I feel that we are going to lose it, it' ; s just going to turn into something that we don' ; t understand. And I would always, I don' ; t care what happens to me, I' ; ve had two children, and I' ; ve been married. I had one and I wasn' ; t married, but that did not make me sit down and say, " ; I can' ; t stand that Black man." ; No. And that Black woman == I' ; ve written a poem and I' ; m getting ready to try to get a copy of it, called " ; Black Men Strapped to Your Back." ; And what I' ; m saying in there, he' ; s the king, he can do some stuff, he gets bitter, he acts a fool, he might even be abusive. This can be your brother, this can be your son, your father or your uncle, but he' ; s strapped to your back. The Black woman' ; s back. Because when a Black woman can look in a Black man' ; s eyes and I' ; ve learned how to do that. He can be an executive, street cleaner or whatever and you can look at his eyes and you can tell way back that way he' ; s still kind of hurting. And you don' ; t even have to say nothing, you have eye contact with him and he might come and lay his head in your lap and everything. You don' ; t have to say nothing. Because you are going to work as much as you can. This is what I saw the Black women doing during the Movement -- you are going to work as much as you can to still get him up that morning. That' ; s how my daddy made it and others and put that suit back on and that blue jean suit back on and say, " ; I' ; m out there again, because I can come back to who?" ; You know -- the Black woman. So I made up a poem called " ; The Black Man Strapped to My Back." ; Not saying he' ; s weak, I' ; m talking about carrying him in this love and understanding way. Until the day I die, I will never put down a Black man. Never, ever. No matter if he' ; s in that prison over there, over here doing this, because all of us are doing things we got no business and it hurts when they are doing it. But I will never and I hope I never have to live that down because that was something I learned even when I paint or whatever -- I still draw groupings of men. I mean Black men making it. He can do some stuff and I wish somebody could really point out that to him. I feel like a Black man could go out there, if he needed a house, if he could go to the woods and chop down some trees, he' ; ll build his family somewhere to live, because I saw them make something out of nothing. And I saw that and I' ; m glad I had that experience and I hope that I can always push that on with my son, anybody. Even when the garbage man comes by, I ask him, " ; Do you want some ice water?" ; And then I see somebody working for the telephone company. " ; Hi, how are you doing?" ; The same thing. And I thank God for that personality and the personality that he put me in and regular teach me how to be like that. Even though I' ; m crippled -- I am in constant pain every day -- I was not this size. I was a small person but I' ; m still learning how to love. HUNTLEY: You are obviously a treasure. The institute is serving as a repository for any items that you may have. For instance, your father may have papers that he left or anything like that. If you have things of that nature, we would very much appreciate you getting in touch with us. JERNIGAN: Well, I' ; ve already donated some pictures and a couple of pictures with them in groups and also some pictures of him when they were doing some marches right here in Birmingham and other places. We had a bad fire before the Institute opened and we had a lot of memorabilia. So it' ; s like what we are getting now is what we had to scrape up. And how I got some of those articles, my aunt in Cleveland, Ohio kept a lot of articles and she sent them to us. Now at home, I' ; m trying to write up but some time, right now it' ; s painful when you write these things out. You got to stop and start. I hope one day to come out with a book. I hope one day for one of my paintings or several of my paintings to be hung there in the Institute telling of my story. I' ; m doing one now with the blue jean suits on some canvas. And it' ; s real blue jean material. And I hope one day, those can be, which I know it' ; s going to be appreciated because these children will get a chance to see what really happened. HUNTLEY: Well, Mrs. Charlotte Billups Jernigan, thank you very much. JERNIGAN: I really appreciated this and I praise God for this opportunity. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CBJernigan1995.xml CBJernigan1995.xml
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Charlotte Billups Jernigan
Description
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Charlotte Billups Jernigan discusses being the daughter of Movement leader Rev. Charles Billups. She attended mass meetings, served in the US Army and worked to integrate service church before moving to work in the Chicago Movement.
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19950609J
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Jackson, Jesse, 1941-
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1995-06-09
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video
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398c18f99c9f236adc7d41f2fbb99121
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
Interviewee
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Hattie Felder
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=HFelder1995.xml
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Movement Choir
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5.4 June 2, 1995 Hattie Felder 19950602F 0:32:38 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Movement Choir Hattie Felder Horace Huntley Video 1:|5(9)|37(9)|53(3)|79(2)|93(2)|108(8)|136(11)|156(3)|179(9)|196(7)|215(9)|233(2)|250(4)|267(15)|281(14)|300(14)|319(6)|340(2)|361(13)|381(14)|399(1)|413(13)|433(1)|457(2)|475(6)|494(8)|514(7)|528(10)|539(8)|559(13)|570(11)|590(11) 0 https://youtu.be/e-9D5HFYx6s YouTube video English 43 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Hattie Felder for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Hattie Felder is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 65 Background and Family Life I would just like to start by just asking some sort of general questions. Felder discusses how her father owned the land he farmed and how her mother had formal education. African Americans--Education ; Farmer Dallas County (Ala.) 253 Life in Orrville Community Can you describe what the community of Orrville was like? Felder discusses how she lived beside white people and how she and her siblings helped out on their farm. African American agricultural laborers ; Sharecroppers Dallas County (Ala.) 422 Educational Journey and Moving to Birmingham How would you describe your school, your high school for instance. Felder discusses how she finished school in Birmingham after she became pregnant at a young age. Dallas County (Ala.) ; GED tests Birmingham (Ala.) 627 Involvement with the NAACP Were you involved at all with the NAACP at that time? Felder recalls how the NAACP helped her study to become a registered voter. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Registered voter Birmingham (Ala.) ; Voter registration 732 Involvement in the Alabama Christian Movement Right. Well, in 1956, the State of Alabama outlaws the operation of the NAACP and the Alabama Christian Movement is established? Felder recalls how she knew Reverend Shuttlesworth before she moved to Birmingham and her experience attending mass meetings. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 909 Attending Mass Meetings How would you describe a typical mass meeting? Felder recalls how the mass meetings were like a revival and how the prayers and singing was therapeutic for her. Civil rights movement ; Mass meetings ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 1061 Police Presence at the Mass Meetings Do you remember Birmingham policemen being in the meetings? Felder discusses how one police officer began helping their cause after attending one of the mass meetings. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1210 Arrested at the Easter Sunday Demonstration in '63 Did you participate in any of the demonstrations? Felder recalls how she was arrested and jailed and how the judge for her trial died in the courtroom before her sentencing. Arrest (Police methods) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama Birmingham (Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 1443 Her Family's Participation in the Movement Did others in your family participate? Felder recalls how her sister participated in the movement and how she gained more customers after she was arrested. Civil rights movement ; Miles College Birmingham (Ala.) 1535 Involvement with the Movement Choir Now, you were also associated with the Movement choir, is that correct? Felder discusses her involvement with the Movement Choir and what church she was a member of. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 1609 Benefits the Community Reaped from the Movement What benefits did you, your family, and your community realize as a result of the Movement? Felder discusses the things the movement achieved but also tells how they did not pass the movement on to the younger generation very well. Civil rights movement ; Integration ; Voter registration Birmingham (Ala.) 1770 The Older Generation's Commitment to the Movement Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with that related to the Movement? Felder recalls the commitment of the older generation to achieve equality by telling a story of a sick woman who was in jail with her. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) 1918 Conclusion of Interview Mrs. Felder I certainly thank you for taking the time out and coming and spending this time with us today. Interview is concluded. Oral History Hattie Felder discusses being arrested at the Easter Sunday demonstrations in 1963. She remained active and went on to participate in the Movement Choir. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Hattie Felder for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 2, 1995. Thank you Ms. Felder for coming out and sitting with us today. I certainly do appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule. FELDER: You are welcome. HUNTLEY: I would just like to start by just asking some sort of general questions. Where were your parents from? FELDER: They were born in Alabama, of course, Dallas County. HUNTLEY: Dallas County, Alabama? FELDER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were both of them born in Dallas County? FELDER: Both of them were born in Dallas County. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Dallas County as well? FELDER: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have and where did you fall within the group? FELDER: It is 11 brothers and sisters. And there was five older than me and five younger than me. HUNTLEY: So you sat right in the middle? FELDER: Right in the center, yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your parents, about their education first of all. I know that our grandparents didn' ; t get a lot of education but just tell us a little bit. FELDER: That' ; s right. My father didn' ; t get a lot of education. Of course, he was a very smart person so he educated himself a lot. And my mother was educated very well for those days. In fact, her mother lived with White people back in those days when she was born and it was her adopted mother, of course, and she had a very good life. She went to school. HUNTLEY: You said this was her adoptive mother? FELDER: Yes. She adopted her from a baby. HUNTLEY: How much formal education did she have? FELDER: I don' ; t really remember, but I do remember her assisting in teaching whenever the teacher was absent back in those days. HUNTLEY: So she was probably better educated than most others? FELDER: Than most of the people in that area, yes. And she also helped my father. My father was with us a lot. And in our studies at night, she would be the teacher. HUNTLEY: What were their occupations. Was your mother actually a teaching assistant? FELDER: She was just a housewife/farmer. Farmer/housewife. HUNTLEY: And your father? FELDER: Was a farmer. HUNTLEY: He as a farmer? FELDER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you own your own land? FELDER: Yes. My father was a veteran of World War I and he bought the property, our family paid for it. HUNTLEY: So lived in the rural section of Dallas County? FELDER: Yes. In Orrville, O-R-R-V-I-L-L-E, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Can you describe what the community of Orrville was like? FELDER: Yes and no. We lived across the road from one White family who owned the store, Berry and Son. HUNTLEY: Berry and Son? FELDER: Berry and Son. And they were the only White people within miles to us. We had relatives. My father' ; s brother lived next to us. They bought their places joining and that brother also had a lot of children who was right along with us in age. So we had churches in the neighborhood in walking distance. Of course, back in those days, you know, you could walk miles to church and to school. And every Sunday we were in church. One of those churches. HUNTLEY: All right. Now this one White family owned the store and this is where you did all of your shopping? FELDER: Oh, no. Oh, no. This was just a neighborhood store. My parents always shopped in Selma. In the City of Selma. HUNTLEY: Were there sharecroppers in the area? FELDER: There were sharecroppers. Those White people that lived across the street from us, or across the road had sharecroppers on their place, on that plantation. HUNTLEY: So they had a pretty large area? FELDER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about you, the recreation during that time? What did you all do? FELDER: Oh, we had something going all the time. We had a softball team within our family because my daddy played with us. And he would always see that there was no cheating from either side. Whatever we played. And we were playing something all the time. We worked very hard, but then we also played very hard, with each other. HUNTLEY: So did all the children then work on the farm? FELDER: Yes. We did. HUNTLEY: What did you do? FELDER: I' ; ve done some of everything. I' ; ve even plowed a mule. HUNTLEY: Is that right? FELDER: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: So you could actually handle a farm if you had to? FELDER: It' ; s been a long time, but once upon a time I could have. Well, now, I' ; m too old anyway. But once upon a time I could have. HUNTLEY: How would you describe your school, your high school for instance? FELDER: Let me start with the elementary. HUNTLEY: Sure. FELDER: Our elementary teachers most of the time was also our Sunday School teachers. We grew up with teachers teaching us in school everyday and also on Sundays. So we were all sort of like family people. The teachers back then were very concerned about all students. This was with all families. HUNTLEY: So what was the name of your elementary school? FELDER: Providence. HUNTLEY: Providence Elementary School? FELDER: Our church name was the same thing. We were taught in a little building right out from our church. HUNTLEY: Was it church affiliated? FELDER: No it wasn' ; t. HUNTLEY: It was a public school? FELDER: Right. A little two-room building with two teachers. HUNTLEY: And then you left there and went on to? FELDER: I went to school in Morlet Bend to junior high school. And of course, that' ; s where I dropped out and came here because I was a mother at an early age. So back then, they didn' ; t allow you to go to school with the other kids. I was determined to continue going to school. HUNTLEY: So you left Orrville to come to Birmingham? FELDER: Right. To support a child and go back to school. HUNTLEY: When you arrived in Birmingham then did you have family here? FELDER: Yes, I did. I came to my mother' ; s niece, one of her nieces, I came to live with them and to get a job to go to school. I had to put my age up. I went to the county home, Ketona Home. I was supposed to have been 21 and I was always older looking than I was and I put my age up and got a job. Back then we didn' ; t have social security cards and that came during the period while I was working out there. So I had to leave of course. HUNTLEY: Is that where you first worked at Ketona? FELDER: That was my first job I had at Ketona. I worked there three years. HUNTLEY: What did you do out there? FELDER: I worked in the kitchen department and serving the patients. HUNTLEY: And did you go on to school at that time as well? FELDER: I went to school at night. Poro Beauty School down here. After finishing Poro then I went back and got my GED years after that. HUNTLEY: What year did you come to Birmingham? FELDER: In 1949. HUNTLEY: In 1949, that is just prior to the Alabama Christian Movement being organized. FELDER: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: Were you involved at all with the NAACP at that time? FELDER: Yes. I was a card holder and I had gone to some of the meetings. Not a lot but I had gone to some of the meetings and I was a card holder at that time. HUNTLEY: What was it like to be a member of the NAACP in Alabama in the 1950s? FELDER: Just about like anything else. You had to believe in what you were doing. You had to believe in whatever would come up that was going to help us in anyway. When I say " ; us" ; I mean our race. HUNTLEY: At that time the NAACP one of their issues was that of voting. FELDER:That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: Were you a registered voter? FELDER: At that time they had this system where if you had children out of wedlock, they asked you all kinds of crazy questions to keep you from voting. So we had to study those questions and we had to know who the governor was, all kind of things. Who the president was and all of his cabinet and the governor' ; s cabinet. We had to learn all of those things to vote. HUNTLEY: Did you pass the first time you went? FELDER: I passed the first time, because I was one of those people that had to be sure. So I passed the first time, but of course, it was after the Movement had come into the Alabama Christian Movement. HUNTLEY: Right. Well, in 1956, the State of Alabama outlaws the operation of the NAACP and the Alabama Christian Movement is established? FELDER: That' ; s right. Then that' ; s when I passed the voter registration. HUNTLEY: Were you a part of those first meetings when Fred Shuttlesworth and the Movement initially began? FELDER: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about that period? FELDER: I remember the seriousness of those meetings. The prayer and the determination to change the whole system. I remember the determination of everybody that was involved to make things better for the coming generation. HUNTLEY: One of the first issues that the Movement dealt with was that of a lack of Black policemen and there was a lawsuit that was filed and, of course we didn' ; t get our first policeman for over ten years after that. But there were other issues. Of course, the issue of the school system when Shuttlesworth attempts to have his children enrolled in Phillips High School. Do you remember that? FELDER: Sure. I remember that real well. By the way, Rev. Shuttlesworth taught school in Orrville where I was reared. HUNTLEY: So you knew him prior to coming to Birmingham? FELDER: Right. He taught some of my sisters and brothers. HUNTLEY: I see. What role did you play in the Alabama Christian Movement? FELDER: Well to begin with, I would just go there. In fact, at our church, my sister was one of those who were teaching some of the members to pass all those questions I just got through talking about to vote. And I remember getting information and going back to the church to those questions and answers. HUNTLEY: So was that what precipitated you getting involved in the Movement itself? FELDER: Yes, it did. That was some of it. HUNTLEY: Did you attend the mass meetings on a regular basis? FELDER: Every time they had a mass meeting I was there. Because by this time I had started working as a beautician and I was self-employed. And so those people that could not attend the meetings because they would have lost their jobs I felt that it was my duty to come forward because nobody could fire me. HUNTLEY: So that independence is what allowed you the opportunity to do what you did? FELDER: Right. That was taught in us as children. HUNTLEY: How would you describe a typical mass meeting? FELDER: It is indescribable. It was like a revival. We had prayers and they were sincere prayers. We had the old time moans, the old time hymns and dedication. HUNTLEY: Were there individuals who gave testimony about different incidents? FELDER: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: Do you remember any? FELDER: I remember a Mrs. Jordan, I believe her name was, that was related to the Hendricks brothers and I am sure you know about them. Everybody does. Because they were all involved, a big family of them. And she could moan like you have never heard a moan. HUNTLEY: What do you mean " ; moan?" ; FELDER: Well, I' ; m not a big singer, but you would have to hear it to believe it. One day, maybe we will have something like that all done over again so the young people can see where we were coming from. HUNTLEY: You mean when one of the deacons or someone would lead a tune and then everyone would follow that call and response kind of music? FELDER: That' ; s right. And sometimes during a prayer there would be a spirit within that person in the audience that moan would come up out of their hearts. You could tell it was coming from the soul. HUNTLEY: And that' ; s what you remember about the mass meetings? FELDER: That' ; s right. It' ; s one of those things that make you sleep real well when you go home at night. HUNTLEY: So then these meetings were sort of therapeutic for you? FELDER: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: At this point, and I always have my class try to look at things in the context of their own times. Why were they so therapeutic? What was happening that this would make you feel so much better? FELDER: We had the faith to know. You see we were taught faith and to believe in God. And we had the faith to know that somehow, someway things are going to be better. And we had that feeling within us. HUNTLEY: Do you remember Birmingham policemen being in the meetings? FELDER: Yes. All the time. HUNTLEY: Why were they there? FELDER: They were there to find out what was going on. And, all the time. They had connection back to Bull Conner I guess as to what was going on there. They wanted to find out if there was anything they could get there to put you in jail. HUNTLEY: You mean, they were in radio communications? FELDER: In radio communication all the time. Sometime you could actually hear it when it came on. But of course, I think we converted one of them while he was there in the meeting. HUNTLEY: Is that right. Why did you think that? FELDER: Oh. He started witnessing. He actually started witnessing in the meeting. HUNTLEY: How do you mean? What did he say? FELDER: Oh, he held up both hands hollering " ; holy, holy." ; HUNTLEY: The spirit hit him? FELDER: That' ; s right. That' ; s right. In those days it happened like that. HUNTLEY: I had heard also that there were those times when the policeman would actually put money in the plate when it was passed around? FELDER: Yes. Yes. And there were times -- we had sermons from different ministers from different churches. There were times they were actually involved. There were times we could see tears coming from their eyes. They had a job to do and they were not involved in doing the mean things. Some of them were really involved in, you know, they had to do this for their job, of course, but they didn' ; t want to do it. We had some to testify to that effect. HUNTLEY: Is that right? FELDER: Yes. HUNTLEY: I was also made aware that there were those who were termed to be " ; snitches" ; that were Black in the Movement? FELDER: Yes. Well, I am sure that happens in everything. Of course, I can' ; t put my finger on anybody that I know of. HUNTLEY: So I would assume that if the policeman testifies or if he does something that is, you know, positive as far as the Movement is concerned, that information would get back as well? FELDER: Yes. And naturally they wouldn' ; t send him back anymore. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of the demonstrations? FELDER: Yes, I did. On Easter Sunday, I believe that was in ' ; 63 I went to jail for walking down the sidewalk. I wasn' ; t doing anything. We were marching. And they just put us all in jail because we were marching. HUNTLEY: How many of you were arrested that day? FELDER: Oh, there was a lot of us. I remember Rev. King. Martin Luther King was already in jail. But his brother was involved in this. HUNTLEY: This was the march where Rev. Smith, N. H. Smith, Rev. Porter and A. D. King were arrested? FELDER: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: And this is one of those famous pictures that were taken? FELDER: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: How long did you stay in jail? FELDER: I was in jail twice because -- actually I went to jail at that time and when they brought our case to trial, Judge Brown was trying the case at that time. And he fell dead up there trying a case. In other words, he had just sentenced a retarded man. And I guess it was so stressful on him, he just fell. And when he fell dead, then Bull Conner came running in the room screaming, " ; Don' ; t let the niggers get away, don' ; t let the niggers get away. Call Judge Conway." ; So they called Judge Conway, and he had us all sent back to jail until they could set another trial for us. So we went back to jail that night. HUNTLEY: So this judge actually fell dead? FELDER: He was dead when he left out of there. It was the saddest thing I' ; ve ever seen in my life. I just wish it was one of those things that everybody could see how hate can kill you. HUNTLEY: So you think it was the hate? FELDER: It was the hate in him. HUNTLEY: Did he exhibit hate during that day? FELDER: And it was so stressful to him that he actually fell over. There was a young lady seated behind me and she was the first person to realize he was sick and she stood up and screamed and pointed, " ; He' ; s sick, he' ; s sick." ; And so they all ran. HUNTLEY: Was this a Black woman? FELDER: It was a Black woman. She was one of those that was in jail at the time I was there. FELDER: I believe her name was Askew, her last name. HUNTLEY: Margaret Askew? FELDER: I don' ; t remember the first name right now. HUNTLEY: You say you were in jail twice. What were the circumstances of the second time? FELDER: This was the second time. They sent us back to arrange the trial. HUNTLEY: I see. But it was on the same issue that you were arrested. Well the day that you were arrested, how did they take you from the area that you were arrested, to the jail? Was it in a paddy wagon? FELDER: In a paddy wagon. They had them all parked out there ready to take us. And they just filled up one right after the other one without anybody scuffling or anything like that. At that time they carried us all to jail. HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate? FELDER: Yes. I had a sister that was very much involved. She was involved before I was with the students at Miles. HUNTLEY: With the students at Miles? FELDER: Yes. HUNTLEY: How did other members of your family react to your participation? FELDER: I have a very, very large family and I don' ; t recall anybody in my family disagreeing. They didn' ; t all participate by a long shot, but I don' ; t recall anybody disagreeing with what we did. We were just in a position where we could not lose our jobs so this is why we went. HUNTLEY: What about your customers, though? FELDER: It was on Easter Sunday and I chose to go down there that day knowing that I may go to jail because after Easter week as a beautician your work is very slow. And I was working by appointments anyway. So I just didn' ; t set up any appointments for the next week. HUNTLEY: But there were no pressures on you from your customers? FELDER: No. I got more customers. I really did. I had more patrons after then than I had for a long time. HUNTLEY: Now, you were also associated with the Movement choir, is that correct? FELDER: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me a little about that? How was that organized? FELDER: I can you tell you something about that but my sister could tell you a lot more because she was involved in organizing the choir. But I do know that Rev. Shuttlesworth as president of the Alabama Christian Movement asked some of the people from the audience if they would get the choir together and they did. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of? FELDER: At that time I was a member of 46th Street in East Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Was your church and pastor involved? FELDER: At that time, yes. HUNTLEY: Did you have meetings there at 46th Street? FELDER: We had one I believe, maybe one or two. But our church was small at the time so we couldn' ; t accommodate that crowd. It was a large crowd. HUNTLEY: What benefits did you, your family and your community realize as a result of the Movement? FELDER: One of the things I think, there were doors opened up that we had never been able to go through, places to go, things to do, jobs and all that sort of thing. Some of the younger people in our families have gotten very good jobs after that. And schooling. HUNTLEY: So would you say that the Movement was, in fact, a success? FELDER: Very much so. It could have been better, but I think this is because of the misunderstanding of what it was all about. HUNTLEY: How do you mean misunderstanding? FELDER: Some of the young people believe that the world owes them something and they don' ; t realize that they have to work for what they get. They have to participate. They have to be aggressive themselves and I think about our generation working so hard to give them all of the material things that we gave them, they misunderstand. They don' ; t know how hard it was for us to come by them. HUNTLEY: Do you think that the Movement was successful or a failure in that regard of passing this on to a younger generation? FELDER: I really feel that in some ways we sort of got off the mark. We didn' ; t pass it on as well as we should have, believing that they would have understood. But they don' ; t have enough information. HUNTLEY: So you believe that there' ; s a need then for us in our generation to develop mechanisms by which we can pass this information on? FELDER: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: And it will be passed on from generation to generation. FELDER: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: And you think that, in fact, would have a more positive impact? FELDER: I believe it would help a whole lot. HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with that related to the Movement? Let me just ask you one question. If I ask you what was the most vivid memory that you have of the Movement during that time, what would you say? FELDER: I believe that would be very hard to answer. But right now, since we were talking about jail, I remember there was a lady in this cell with me. We were all in one great big room with no mattresses on our beds. There were holes, rounds holes in those steel beds that we slept on with nothing but the clothes that we wore in jail. And there was a lady there, her first name was Bessie, I remember that because I had a sister named Bessie. But I don' ; t remember her last name. And this lady had asthma and in the night this lady got very, very ill. And I had saved my call. You know they would give you a chance to call out after you get in jail. So I had saved mine for an emergency and that night I called the Movement because I remembered where the Movement was that night to talk to Rev. Gardner who was the vice president to ask him to see if they could get this lady some help because we didn' ; t think she would live until morning. And that lady, while I was talking to Rev. Gardner, you know they were listening to me. So while I was talking to Rev. Gardner, they came up and got her and carried her to UAB. They gave her a shot and a few hours latter they brought her back. She was doing better. Now, they told her, she came in and told us that they told her she could go home if she wanted to from the hospital. But she told them she didn' ; t want to go home. She wanted to come back with the group that she had gone to jail with. She wanted to be free. She wanted to have the same rights and privilege of any other human being on this earth and she came back to jail. HUNTLEY: Would you call that commitment? FELDER: Commitment. That was the kind of commitment we had back in those days. HUNTLEY: Obviously the Movement had to have been made of people who had that kind of commitment and dedication -- FELDER: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: Because without it it would not have been a success. Mrs. Felder I certainly thank you taking the time out and coming and spending this time with us today. We hope to sit down and talk with you again at some later date. FELDER: Thank you for inviting me. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=HFelder1995.xml HFelder1995.xml
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Hattie Felder
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Hattie Felder discusses being arrested at the Easter Sunday demonstrations in 1963. She remained active and went on to participate in the Movement Choir.
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
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1995-06-02
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Horace Huntley
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Carrie Hamilton Lock
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5.4 October 18, 1995 Carrie Hamilton Lock 19951018L 0:49:54 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham West End High School 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 Newberry's Carrie Hamilton Lock Horace Huntley Video 1:|10(4)|28(12)|44(4)|62(3)|74(3)|84(12)|98(11)|120(4)|135(15)|157(5)|167(11)|177(2)|188(6)|199(2)|211(9)|218(1)|233(1)|248(3)|256(2)|266(4)|277(13)|290(12)|298(11)|310(6)|322(12)|334(1)|344(6)|353(10)|365(2)|379(9)|396(8)|418(5)|426(13)|437(11)|447(11)|459(11)|473(2)|480(7)|499(5)|514(12)|529(8)|543(13)|562(4)|573(14)|584(9)|604(11)|625(14) 0 https://youtu.be/ShESKLN1MYk YouTube video English 20 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Ms. Carrie Hamilton Lock for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 43 Family Background You were a young person during the time of the struggle and what we are trying to do is sort of piece together this story of Birmingham and the Movement. Lock tells how her parents are from Birmingham and her mother was a nurse and her father was a minister. First Baptist Church ; Nursing ; Rickwood Ball Park Birmingham (Ala.) ; Ensley (Ala.) 173 Educational Journey He sort of laid the foundation for me, because I was one of those house husbands for awhile, myself. Lock states the schools she attended and describes how her elementary school was an all-black school. African Americans--Segregation ; Parker High School Birmingham (Ala.) 272 Community Background And, maybe you were in comparison. Tell me just a bit about your community, the community of Rising. Lock recalls how she grew up in a tight knit community and how she stayed with her grandparents sometimes. Blue collar workers ; Parker High School ; Rising Birmingham (Ala.) 585 Her Parents' Involvement in the Movement Were your parents actively involved in the Movement? Lock recalls how her parents would attend the mass meetings at Sixteenth Street Baptist Church and how her father was a prominent voice in the movement. Civil rights movement ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) 678 Impact of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church Bombing How did that impact upon you as a young person, the bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church? Lock describes her memories of the bombing and how this instance solidified the fact that there were two different worlds: white and Black. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Racism Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States 892 Relationship with the Police What was the relationship, as you remember, between your community and the Birmingham Police Department? Lock recalls how her community never really dealt with the police because the men in the neighborhood handled things. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Nuclear family units Birmingham (Ala.) 1036 Watching Her Father Go to Jail You mentioned that your father, and your mother I assume, were actively involved in the struggle. Lock recalls when her father was pulled over by police on the way to pick their mother up from the hospital and how he was arrested and taken to jail while her and her siblings were left on the sidewalk. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States 1195 Involvement in the '63 Demonstrations Were your parents involved with the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights prior to the '63 demonstrations? Lock tells how she can still hear the screams of the people and the water coming out of the hoses whenever she drives by Newberry's. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Newberry's Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States 1272 Going to Mass Meetings What do you remember about the mass meetings? How would you describe the mass meetings that you attended? Lock recalls listening to Reverend Shuttlesworth and Dr. King preach about the movement and how police would show up to the meetings. Jackson, Jesse, 1941- ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Mass meetings ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 1465 Attending Strategy Meetings for the Demonstrations Going to West End, that means that you transferred from Parker High School. Lock describes what it was like attending strategy meetings and how Dr. King would call out the traitors in the meetings who were reporting Movement information. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Mass Meetings Birmingham (Ala.) 1634 Participation in the Demonstrations What do you remember about participating in demonstrations? Lock recalls seeing the older children go to jail at the demonstrations and how demonstrators realized that it was not a big deal to go to jail. Arrest (Police methods) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 1802 Integrating West End High School When you finished your freshman year at Parker, then you decided or your parents decided or you decided collectively, how that decision made? Lock describes seeing white mobs and the KKK at the entrance of West End High School when she started her first day there, but that did not scare her and she graduated from West End. Integration ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Ku Klux Klan Birmingham (Ala.) ; Racism ; West End High School 2428 Her Siblings' Support for Integrating an All-white School What was the reaction of your other brothers and sisters to your attending and having to go through what you were going through? Lock tells how her siblings were very supportive of her decision and how she had to mature faster than others because of her experience at West End. Integration ; West End High School Birmingham (Ala.) 2602 Continuing Her Education After high school, what did you do? Lock tells where she went to college after high school and how she moved around for a little while. Northeastern Illinois University ; Tuskegee Institute ; University of Texas at San Antonio San Antonio (Tex.) ; Tuskegee (Ala.) 2957 Conclusion of Interview Very well stated. Thank you very much. Interview is concluded. Oral History Carrie Hamilton Lock discusses getting involved in the Movement by following her parents' example. She attended mass meetings and integrated West End High School. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Carrie Hamilton Lock for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College. Today is October 18, 1995. Welcome, Ms. Lock. LOCK: Thank You. HUNTLEY: You were a young person during the time of the struggle and what we are trying to do is sort of piece together this story of Birmingham and the Movement. But first, I would like to just start by asking you some general questions about your family. Where were your parents from? LOCK: My parents are both from Birmingham, Alabama. I was born and raised in the Rising area, which is most notable for Rickwood Ball Park. HUNTLEY: Did you have brothers and sisters? LOCK: Yes, I did. I have an older sister, Cheryl. Then, I' ; m the second in line, Carrie. My brother, William, my brother Bernard and my sister, Nancy. HUNTLEY: Do all of them still live in Birmingham? LOCK: Well, everybody lives here except Nancy. HUNTLEY: Where does Nancy live? LOCK: Nancy lives in Illinois. HUNTLEY: How much education did your parents have? Did they go to high school or to college? LOCK: My mother and father both went to Parker High School. My father was a minister. He was minister at First Baptist Church in Ensley. He also worked and retired from the U. S. Postal Service. He was a mail handler here in Birmingham and retired after 20 something years. HUNTLEY: Did your mother work outside of the home? LOCK: My mother did work outside of the home. She worked as a nurse and she was involved in our child rearing. But I would have to say that my father was an early Mr. Mom. He took care of the kids. He did the cooking, he did the washing, he did the ironing. HUNTLEY: He sort of laid the foundation for me, because I was one of those house husbands for awhile, myself. Tell me a bit about your education. Where did you start first grade? LOCK: I started first grade at Brighton Elementary School and I went there for the first and the second grade. I can remember my first grade teacher was Mrs. Austin. HUNTLEY: You seem as if you have fond memories of Mrs. Austin? LOCK: I have all fond memories of my childhood. HUNTLEY: That' ; s great. You moved from Brighton, then what school did you attend? LOCK: I went to Princeton Elementary School. HUNTLEY: Was Princeton an integrated school at the time? LOCK: No. It was all Black at the time. Princeton remains, in 1995 to be a premier elementary school, now. During the time that I went to school, it was a very good school and the community was always involved. We had a principal, Ms. Lucille Boyd. Ms. Boyd, Ms. Catherine Smith, our teachers, were all involved with the kids. I had no idea that we were poor, because back then everything was based on integrity, instead of money. So, my parents had plenty of integrity. I thought we were rich. HUNTLEY: And, maybe you were in comparison. Tell me just a bit about your community, the community of Rising. How do you remember Rising as a child growing up in that community? LOCK: The foremost thing that I remember about Rising is that it was four blocks east and west and four blocks north and south, and so, that was our world. We had four block by four blocks and we were a very closely knit community. All of the parents knew each other. My parents worked. Both of my parents worked. All the time my mother and father would leave very early and come back very late, but all the neighbors were in charge of us, so that if anything happened, rest assured the neighbors were going to tell. HUNTLEY: What kind of occupations did your neighbors have? Do you remember what kind of work was done by most of the people in the community? LOCK: During the 50s and the 60s neighbors would be the gambit of teachers, nurses, nurses aides, domestics, proud domestics, but people that I knew as portermen were proud people. They had worked to send their children to whatever schooling that they were going to go through, business schooling at that time. I just remember a dignified life style during that time. HUNTLEY: You went to Parker High School, initially, is that correct? LOCK: Oh, yes, 9th grade. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that experience. Why did you decide to go to Parker High School? LOCK: Because I was spoiled. My grandmother and grandfather lived in the Smithfield area, and, at my grandmother' ; s house I had my own room. I had all the privileges that an only child has. My grandfather was a minister and he always wore a black suit, a white shirt and a black tie. He would take me to school and have me sit in the back. He would get out and come around the side, it was like I had a chauffeur, so of course, all the kids thought we were rich. Of course, we were not. But everybody thought that my grandfather was my chauffeur. HUNTLEY: This is at Parker? LOCK: This is at Parker and when we got out at 3:00 or 3:30, whatever time school let out, he would stand on the sidewalk and stand their very proud, open the door and stand and wait for me to get in. I felt like a princess. HUNTLEY: Where was your older sister? LOCK: They were at home. HUNTLEY: She was out of school already? LOCK: No. My older sister is less than two years older than I, so she was at Parker. HUNTLEY: But she lived with your mother and father and you lived with your grandparents? LOCK: Well, just for a little while. When I would get mad at my parents, I would go to my gran, just like kids are today. HUNTLEY: Playing the ends against the middle? LOCK: That' ; s right. I was real good at it. HUNTLEY: After your 9th grade at Parker, tell me what do you remember about Parker as a school? LOCK: I remember fun times. I remember that coming from Princeton Elementary school, which is a very small school, and going to Parker, I thought this is the greatest thing that has ever happened to me. It was so big, it was so huge, I was such an adult, I just thought this was the greatest thing in the world. Most of the people there knew my parents. The teachers knew my dad and my mom, so we couldn' ; t get away with anything, because people would call your parents then. You didn' ; t dare get in trouble because that would just be the end of it. I felt very special there. I worked for the principal, so I had my own principal' ; s pass. My teachers were very good. I was freshman representative to the student council so I got a chance to go to assembly on a weekly basis and stand on the stage. That was very important. HUNTLEY: So you were a very active person in your formative years? LOCK: I suppose, but back then I didn' ; t think so. I mean, you don' ; t think about it. It wasn' ; t conscious. HUNTLEY: You were a freshman at Parker in 1963? LOCK: That' ; s correct. HUNTLEY: During the demonstrations? LOCK: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were your parents actively involved in the Movement? LOCK: Yes, they were. My parents would go to the mass meetings at 16th Street Baptist Church. My father was a minister, my grandfather was a minister and at that time all ministers were vocal characters in the Movement. They kept the community abreast of what would be going on and what should be going on. But I think the thing that I remember the most about Parker High School was standing in the principal' ; s office when Kennedy was killed and back to back to back to back, so many people were dying. I was always a kid that was interested in the news. HUNTLEY: What do you mean " ; back to back to back people were dying?" ; LOCK: People were dying in Mississippi. I remember when Megar Evers was killed. I remember when the three civil rights workers died in Mississippi. Ms. Lucio, I remember that as a child. I remember when Denise McNair, Addie Collins and the other girls were killed at 16th Street Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: How did that impact upon you as a young person, the bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church? LOCK: If I can remember it was on a September, an early September morning on Sunday and the blast shook our house even though we lived very far away and the news came by telephone. People ran out in the streets. They were screaming, they were hollering. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in when the bombing took place? LOCK: I lived by Rickwood Ball Park. I lived in the Rising neighborhood. But it shook our house and everybody wondered what is it, what in the world. It was so loud and, then, we were told what had happened. Nobody could believe it because the civil rights era was one thing, but murder was something else. I can remember that the young Wesley girl, her father had been my teacher, my principal at Princeton Elementary School and Chris McNair had taught at Parker, so these were people that I knew, if not the children, I knew their parents, or I knew who their parents were. It was utter disbelief. Nobody believed that even White people were so low down, so hateful, so spiteful that they would kill children. And, after they did kill the children, they weren' ; t sorry. HUNTLEY: What kind of impression did that leave on you about White people in general? Did you look at White people in general or did you look at this as an isolated case? LOCK: No. It was not isolated because as children we were very aware of Whites. We were very aware of the two worlds that we lived in--the Black world, the White world. My parents always had Ebony magazine around and Jet magazine, and we understood. We knew about Emmitt Till, the young boy that had been killed and his body mutilated. We knew about lynchings. We were very aware of how Black people disappeared, never to be heard of again. How Black men would be shot in the back, walking the streets and the police would say, " ; They were shot in self-defense because these people were robbing or killing." ; We were very aware of the terrible things that were happening in the Black community. But, as children we were not afraid. HUNTLEY: What was the relationship, as you remember, between your community and the Birmingham Police Department? Do you ever remember any incidences in your community between the police and individuals in your community? LOCK: I never saw the police in our community. We lived in a very quiet community. A family community. As a matter of fact, when I was in the 8th grade, I never knew anybody that was divorced. None of my friends parents were divorced. I didn' ; t know what that meant. We might have been poor people, but we were a proud people with dignity. I remember that if there were ever any conflicts in the community, that they would come to the men, my dad, other men. If young boys got in trouble, their parents threatened to tell my dad, other fathers, they would be in big trouble. At that time all men disciplined all the children. HUNTLEY: Are you suggesting that there were not children in your community that lived with just their mother or their grandmother and the father was not in the home? LOCK: I don' ; t remember anybody that didn' ; t have a father at home. I just don' ; t remember anybody that didn' ; t have two parents. During most cases, most grandparents were still inside the house, or next door. HUNTLEY: So it was an all inclusive kind of community in those extended families because you actually had people in your community who were just like family who may not have been blood relatives? LOCK: Exactly. Just recently my mother and I were talking. And I said, " ; You know, when you' ; re young, you don' ; t question anything." ; There were people that I called Aunt so and so, or Cousin so and so, and you never really knew if they were blood relatives or not. It didn' ; t matter, but you didn' ; t question it. HUNTLEY: You mentioned that your father, and your mother I assume, were actively involved in the struggle. You did say that all ministers were spokespersons for the Movement. But, there were some ministers did not participate. But your father and your grandfather obviously did. Can you tell me the extent of their involvement in the Movement at the time? LOCK: My father had a very personal stake in the Movement. My father was very outspoken. He was not afraid of White people. He always said what was on his mind and it often got him in trouble. HUNTLEY: For instance, how did it get him trouble? LOCK: For example, when we were very small children, maybe I was 6 or 7, we were on the way to the hospital to pick my mother up from the hospital and the police stopped my father. They got really smart. They said something about " ; Get out of the car, boy." ; And, of course, we were on the back seat and my dad said, " ; Who are you calling boy?" ; And, the cops says, " ; You' ; re going to be in trouble." ; My dad said, " ; If you put your gun on top of the car and fight me fair, I' ; ll show you who a boy is." ; And, they took him to jail. I can remember that it was cold, that it was very damp, raining and the police left us standing on the sidewalk. My mother had just gotten out of the hospital. We had never made it home. They left us there--children, small children, and my mother was not dressed. She didn' ; t have a coat. She was coming from the hospital. They took my father to jail, but he was not afraid. Whenever people got in trouble in the community, my father, along with some of the other men, there were four or five men, young men, that everybody came to when somebody was in trouble. None of these men were afraid of Whites. They were not afraid. They were protectors of the community. If something happened, they would take care of it. HUNTLEY: Were your parents involved with the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights prior to the ' ; 63 demonstrations? LOCK: I can remember slipping off to maybe two meetings without my parents knowing about it. But after the bombing, it was a nightly ritual whenever the mass meeting was called, everybody was there. HUNTLEY: But prior to the bombing, in April, the bombing was in September. In April and May, there were marches practically every day. Were you involved in that? LOCK: We were downtown. I can remember the particular march at Newberry' ; s downtown. I look at Newberry' ; s today and I see it' ; s ruin. I see the plight of the building and I just remember. And, if you' ; re quiet enough, you can hear the water, you can hear the people screaming still. You can hear the dogs. And I said, " ; Why, why?" ; HUNTLEY: You, of course, at that point was a teenager, a young teenager at the time. LOCK: I was probably about 12, then or 13. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the mass meetings? How would you describe the mass meetings that you attended? LOCK: They were very intense. Even as a child, you knew that there was something special in the air. At the meetings, it was like church but it was different from church. I can remember on the stage, Dr. King, Mrs. King, Fred Shuttlesworth, Jesse Jackson, Julian Bond. Julian Bond and Jesse Jackson were young boys. They didn' ; t look much older than we were, but they were there. And, Rev. Woods and other people that I can' ; t remember their names, there was another older gentleman, they called him Sunshine, he' ; s dead now. Sunshine was always close to my parents and he kept us all informed of what was going on. I can remember when they bombed Attorney Shores home. And, so, everyday there was something to let Black people know that they were not safe. They would intimidate our parents and tell them if you go to these meetings, you' ; re not going to have a job. Well, the jobs that they had, they couldn' ; t make a living for their children anyway, so it didn' ; t matter. They would sit on the porch at night, my father and other men, with shotguns and rifles and they would sit on the front porch all night just to make sure that White people didn' ; t harm us. They would go to other communities and ban together and watch over the houses to make sure that people were not bombed in their sleep. HUNTLEY: Were your parents or your home ever threatened? Did people every call your home? Why were they sitting on the porch? I assume that was on your porch. LOCK: There was somebody in every block. After I went to West End, they sat up all night across the street from our house, in the back of our house, on the side of our house. HUNTLEY: Going to West End, that means that you transferred from Parker High School. But before we get to West End High School, let me just ask you a couple of questions about the Movement itself. You, in 1963, participated in demonstrations. Did you also participate in any of the classes, training sessions that were done with young people that were going to demonstrate? LOCK: I don' ; t think they were called classes, necessarily. But, we would sit in church as though it was church and they would tell us what to do. The strategists were the men, they would say, " ; We' ; re going to walk down this street and when the police come, then, we' ; ll come from the other street, and when the other police come, we' ; ll come." ; They were very smart. As a child, I loved the meetings because I always thought that Black people were smarter than the cops because they were always surprised. And I can remember that they would always send somebody to infiltrate the meeting and how Dr. King would stand on the podium and call them out. It was as though he knew who the " ; Judas" ; was. HUNTLEY: You mean a Black person that would be sent? LOCK: A Black person that would be sent in. We called them the " ; Uncle Toms." ; I can' ; t label all people that. There were some people there for whatever reason, that the White man would demand that they report back, that they would bring back information. And, for whatever reason, they had to do it. HUNTLEY: These individuals were known to be ... LOCK: Some were known and some were unknown. I just remember that Dr. King would speak to them as " ; Judas" ; and, then, there were Whites that would stand in the back of the church and take notes. I can remember Bull Conner as a child, and the police that they would be outside of the church. They were very visible. They always wore sunglasses. You could see the malice on their faces. You knew that they meant you harm. But they were very bold about infiltrating the church. They didn' ; t have any respect, but we prevailed. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about participating in demonstrations? LOCK: Some of us went because it was fun. Until the four children were killed, when you' ; re very young, you don' ; t know why. But, you' ; re caught up in the emotions. My parents talked to us. They knew that something would come, eventually come. I' ; m not saying that they had the foresight to see what eventually did happen, but I knew they wanted something better for their children. HUNTLEY: Do you ever remember being in a demonstration and being attacked by the police or by the firemen? LOCK: No. I remember just being in the crowds and running. To say that I was bitten by a dog, no. To say that I was knocked down by the water hoses, no. But, we were in the crowds when the dogs were turned loose. We were in the crowds when the water was turned on, but there were so many people. I can remember when they would pick demonstrators up and we were still very young. So it was the older children, the high school children that went to jail. I can remember when all of the city jails were full, then they started putting people in the Bessemer jails. And, when the Bessemer jails were full, they started putting people in the Fair Park, every conceivable facility, and by this point, Blacks had come to realize that going to jail was no big deal. There was nothing criminal about it, so I knew older teenagers who would go to jail and be released and go back the same night to get arrested again. HUNTLEY: But you were never arrested, right? LOCK: I was never arrested, there. HUNTLEY: But, you were arrested? LOCK: Later on, I had my share. HUNTLEY: Did you go to St. Augustine and participate? LOCK: No. HUNTLEY: Okay. Let me just take this a step further then. When finished your freshman year at Parker, then you decided or your parents decided or you decided collectively, how was that decision made? LOCK: Well, Dr. King asked all the children, all the students to integrate the schools. And, there were 22 signed up for West End. There were other numbers signed up to the other schools, but specifically I remember 22 signed up for West End. HUNTLEY: This is in " ; 63-64 school year? LOCK: 1964-65 school year. HUNTLEY: And, there were 22 that signed up? LOCK: Twenty-two signed up the Sunday night before. HUNTLEY: How many showed up on Monday morning? LOCK: One. HUNTLEY: And that was you? LOCK: Yes. HUNTLEY: How did you get there? LOCK: My father drove us. My mother, my father and myself. When we arrived, I can remember the Klan marching down the sidewalk in their hoods, in their robes and I believe this was the first time that I had seen the Klan. HUNTLEY: Do you remember the numbers? Were there others that were there that did not have the robes on? LOCK: There were mobs there. It was a mob scene, but I will always remember the robes and not being afraid and the closer we got to the school, I felt privileged, I felt honored. I was not afraid, maybe I should have been afraid, but I was not afraid because I had my father there. And, I can remember to get to the school door, we had to say " ; Excuse me, excuse me." ; And they didn' ; t want to let us through and they would say, " ; Nigger, go home. Nigger! Nigger! Go home, Nigger!" ; And the more they said that, the prouder I got and the more I held my shoulders back and I smiled. But there were a lot of angry Whites there. My father and my mother talked to me and they said that the West End area was a poor area and that' ; s where poor, White trash lived. And, that we were better than that. Those people were acting that way because they didn' ; t know any better. My mother and father prepared me for what would happen, but they had no idea as to what really happened. HUNTLEY: What would happen when you finally get into the school and you go to the office? Do you remember the reception that you received from the principal and from those that worked in the office? LOCK: I remember the principal being very old and very nervous. He was probably thinking that no Blacks would come. That we wouldn' ; t dare come and, then I showed up. Inside the school, it was chaos. The children were very mean. They yelled, " ; Nigger." ; But I had heard that so much, it didn' ; t matter. HUNTLEY: Inside the classroom this was going on? What did the teachers do when these kinds of incidents took place? LOCK: If you don' ; t have leadership at the top, if the principal does not say, " ; We will not tolerate outbursts." ; If the principal does not say, " ; We' ; re just going to accept the situation," ; what happened was just awful. I can remember in the classrooms that all the children, all the students, if there were 20-25 kids in one class, they would also sit in the front row, two and three to one seat and, then, they would leave four rows and, then, I would sit on the last row. And, there would be four empty rows between us. And, I could not go to the restroom when the other students went to the restroom. I had a special time to go to the restroom. HUNTLEY: A specially designated time? LOCK: A special designated time, whether I had to or not. And, one particular day, when I was in the 10th grade, I had to go and I had to go at the time when the other kids were in there also. I remember that this was the first time that I had new books. I had brand new books for the first time and one of the students knocked my books over in a sink full of water. Well, Heaven and Hell couldn' ; t help her right then. I didn' ; t care. I beat her from A to Z and I didn' ; t care. HUNTLEY: It was just the two of you in the restroom at the time? LOCK: No, no. There were many girls in there, but I would have taken care of all of them. It was the first time, in my life that I had brand new books. My father had probably taken his whole two weeks salary to pay for my books. I was so proud. They were wrapped in newspaper. I had trimmed the newspaper and bound the books. I was so careful not to get any scratches on them. No dirt. They were protected because they were new books. HUNTLEY: What happened as a result of the fight? LOCK: Well, I' ; m sure that the White girl wished that she hadn' ; t started that. She said I told her to pick them up and she knocked them on the floor again. I said, " ; Pick them up." ; And she said something about she didn' ; t listen to a nigger. Something about a nigger. After that I don' ; t remember except that when I finished with her you couldn' ; t really tell what she was made of. But we were both sent to the principal' ; s office and the principal expelled me and I called my dad. My father came to get me. When I got home, we called the 16th Street Baptist Church and my dad called Washington and he talked to Kisenbach. They sent somebody there. There were three White men that came that night. HUNTLEY: To your home? LOCK: To my home. They wanted to know what happened, and I told them. They wanted to be very sure that I hadn' ; t initiated the fight. HUNTLEY: This was the night of the fight? LOCK: This was the night of the fight. HUNTLEY: Did you go back the next day? LOCK: I cannot remember if I went back the next day, but this was a very critical point because Whites didn' ; t know how they were going to handle the situation in the schools. There were no rules. They really didn' ; t know how to handle it. HUNTLEY: Were you the only Black child at the school at that time? LOCK: I was the only Black child there and it seemed like 2,000 of them, but it was probably no more than 300-400 students there. HUNTLEY: West End was a pretty large school, so it may have been about 2,000. West End and Woodlawn were huge schools, so they probably were very large classes. Did you remember when you returned to school, what your reception was? LOCK: The principal was very angry. HUNTLEY: With you? LOCK: He was very angry. The attorney general had sent people. I don' ; t know who the White men were, to the school to talk to him. It would have been very easy to suspend me, get rid of me and never see me again, but my father said, no. He asked me, " ; Can you handle it?" ; My father would always ask me, " ; Can you handle it?" ; But, he knew that I could. I knew that he expected me to and I knew that somebody had to do it. HUNTLEY: What was the reaction of your other brothers and sisters to your attending and having to go through what you were going through? Were they aware of what was happening at the time? LOCK: Of course they were aware. HUNTLEY: What were their reactions? LOCK: They were my brothers and sisters. They were supportive. Whatever had to be done is exactly what we did. My brothers were younger and perhaps they did not understand as much, but my sister did. My sister was fearful for me. My sister was very protective of me. They were always fearful that something might happen to me. If the other kids were let out of school at 3:00, then my dad had to pick me up at 2:30. I was never allowed to go out of the door when they were going out of the door. HUNTLEY: For the entire three years that you were there? LOCK: For the entire three years that we were there. They said they couldn' ; t protect me. HUNTLEY: When you graduated, how many Black students were at West End at that time? LOCK: There were a total of three. There was one girl to graduate in 1967. There were two of us graduating and I can' ; t remember if Vera Marcus was in the 10th grade, I believe at that time. HUNTLEY: When you graduated? LOCK: When I graduated. HUNTLEY: And Patricia Marcus? LOCK: Patricia Marcus, her sister had gone to West End in 1963 and graduated. HUNTLEY: Were there no Black males involved in the school at all? LOCK: No. HUNTLEY: That must have been a very trying time in your life. How did that experience impact upon the rest of your life? LOCK: I grew up fast. I matured probably faster than the kids around me. It made me very strong. It made me very bitter, but it made me very proud and I knew that I had been set aside. I knew that, for whatever reason, whatever would come in my life, that I would be able to handle it. That, if I had gone through that, that I could handle anything. HUNTLEY: After high school, what did you do? LOCK: After high school I went to Tuskegee Institute. I graduated on Sunday afternoon and the next Sunday afternoon, I was leaving for college. That had nothing to do with West End. At Princeton Elementary School, in 5th grade, we knew where we were going to go to college. Our teachers had told us where we were going to go to college. We knew all about Tuskegee. While other students were procrastinating and wondering and trying to see if they were accepted, I knew in 5th grade where I was going to go to school. By the time we were in 7th grade I think our teachers had probably already filled out our applications for college in our minds. Mrs. Catherine Smith, Catherine Eileen Smith had gone to Tuskegee and she would say, " ; Class, these are the songs that you will sing at Tuskegee and these are the things that you will do at Tuskegee." ; And, of course, " ; This is what you' ; ll have to wear at Tuskegee." ; Everybody went to Tuskegee. HUNTLEY: So you were programmed for Tuskegee? LOCK: We were programmed. I never applied anywhere else. HUNTLEY: What was the transition like from your high school days to Tuskegee? LOCK: It was " ; Glory, Hallelujah!" ; It was wonderful to be around Black people, to be around people going to college. It was a new day. It was a proud day. It was just wonderful. HUNTLEY: Did you graduate from Tuskegee? LOCK: No, I didn' ; t. HUNTLEY: How long did you spend there? LOCK: I spent two years at Tuskegee. HUNTLEY: It' ; s very obvious that there are very fond memories of that. From Tuskegee where did you go? LOCK: From Tuskegee, I got married and I moved to Georgia to Atlanta. Then, I lived three years in Germany and from Germany I came back to Chicago. I finished Northeastern Illinois University. HUNTLEY: Now, you have a masters degree? LOCK: Yes. HUNTLEY: In what area? LOCK: In public administration and business. HUNTLEY: And you did that in Illinois? LOCK: No, the University of Texas, San Antonio. HUNTLEY: Well, that' ; s a tremendous story, because what we are seeing that' ; s happening with people who grew up in Birmingham and were involved in the Movement, it appears that just as you said, there' ; s a maturity there based upon those times that led you to be successful in other areas. I assume that' ; s because of the fortitude that you developed. LOCK: Well, I don' ; t know about successful, but you sure learn how to survive. You sure don' ; t know that " ; no" ; is in the vocabulary. You sure don' ; t know that " ; can' ; t" ; isn' ; t in the dictionary. You don' ; t know that you can' ; t do things. You certainly not intimidated by people because you face Satan himself everyday. That the world that they enjoy came at somebody' ; s sacrifice. My life was better because people died before I had to go through those doors. I' ; m saddened when I see West End High School now. I' ; m saddened by the way the children act today. That they don' ; t take their education seriously. I' ; m saddened, very saddened at the children' ; s mentality that they don' ; t know that they can achieve. I' ; m saddened when they don' ; t want to go to college. I' ; m saddened when they go to college and it' ; s not important to them. They must know that everything came at somebody' ; s sacrifice. That' ; s what I want them to know. Somebody bled, somebody cried and somebody died, for you. HUNTLEY: Very well stated. Thank you very much. LOCK: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
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Carrie Hamilton Lock
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Carrie Hamilton Lock discusses getting involved in the Movement by following her parents' example. She attended mass meetings and integrated West End High School.
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19951018L
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
West End High School
16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963
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1995-10-18
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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Danella Jones Bryant
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Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department
March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.)
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5.4 June 23, 1995 Danella Bryant 19950623B 0:33:50 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Young, Andrew, 1932- Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) Danella Jones Bryant Horace Huntley Video 1:|6(12)|29(5)|49(15)|65(4)|81(7)|100(4)|111(1)|126(2)|144(6)|155(5)|165(6)|182(2)|204(6)|223(10)|241(5)|262(10)|286(2)|300(8)|322(5)|332(15)|352(2)|367(9)|380(2)|393(6)|408(5)|418(8)|429(11)|443(3)|455(14)|469(8)|483(6)|500(6)|516(5) 0 https://youtu.be/aQDRKvjZBTk YouTube video English 42 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Ms. Danella Jones Bryant for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Danella Bryant is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 58 Family Background What I want to do initially is to just start talking about your background. Bryant tells how her parents were blue-collar workers with little education. Andalusia (Ala.) ; University of Alabama in Birmingham. Medical Center Birmingham (Ala.) ; Blue collar workers 147 Educational Journey Tell me a bit about your education. Bryant went to high school in Birmingham and to college in California. Los Angeles City College ; Parker High School ; University of California (System) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Los Angeles (Calif.) 266 Community Background What community did you live in? Bryant recalls how she grew up in Smithfield where people looked out for each other. Blue collar workers ; Smithfeld Birmingham (Ala.) 308 Experiencing Racism Growing up in Birmingham were there ever any incidents that really made you know that you did not have all of the rights and privileges that other citizens had? Bryant recalls how white people would call her names and how she could not go to the Alabama Theater. Alabama--Social life and customs ; Racism--United States Birmingham (Ala.) 458 Involvement with the Movement How then did you get involved in the Movement? Bryant describes how she got involved in the movement and how they preached non-violence at the mass meetings. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Mass meetings ; Non-violent Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 567 Relationship with the Police Can you tell me what was the relationship between your community and the police department? Bryant describes how a police officer held a gun to her head and told her that he would kill her. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Police brutality--United States Birmingham (Ala.) ; Racism 724 Getting Other Students to Join the Movement During the Movement you participated in demonstrations? Bryant recalls how she would go around to other schools and try to recruit kids for the movement. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Civil rights movement African American student movements ; Birmingham (Ala.) 845 Being Arrested Multiple Times for Marching Did you ever go to jail? Bryant describes how she was arrested three times for marching in Birmingham and St. Augustine. Arrest (Police methods) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Juvenile detention Birmingham (Ala.) ; St. Augustine (Fla.) 1042 Meeting Important Leaders of the Movement You, of course, were closely associated then with some of the people that would be household names. Bryant tells how she attended meetings with several of the prominent leaders of the movement. Bevel, James L. (James Luther), 1936-2008 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Young, Andrew, 1932- Birmingham (Ala.) 1105 Attending the March on Washington Bryant recalls how incredible the March on Washington was and how thousands of people were there in support of their cause. March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) Washington, D.C. 1212 Family and Friends Involvement in the Movement What were your parents saying as a result of your activity? Bryant recalls how her family was supportive and how her friends were afraid to join the movement. Civil rights movement ; Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) 1336 Moving to Los Angeles How do you think your involvement impacted upon you as a person? Bryant states that her family was concerned for her safety so they wanted her to move to Los Angeles. America--Race relations ; Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) ; Los Angeles (Calif.) 1468 Memories of the 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing You were in Birmingham when the 16th Street Church was bombed? Bryant tells how the church bombing changed her family and led her to move to Los Angeles. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Racism Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1599 Freedom, Commitment, and Race Relations Were there ever instances where, as a young student, that you were simply frightened of what you were involved in? Bryant describes how she committed herself to the cause, gained freedom and a greater understanding of race relations in the United States. Freedom ; Police brutality--United States ; United States--Race relations Birmingham (Ala.) ; Los Angeles (Calif.) 1766 Educating the Youth You are now a member of the advisory committee for the Civl Rights Institute? Bryant states how the Institute strives to educate future generations about the movement, so their history does not get lost. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1855 Appearance in Life Magazine You have enlightened us today with all the activities that you were involved in as a young person and that's very commendable. Bryant recalls how Reverend Bevel showed her a picture of herself in Life Magazine during one of the marches. Bevel, James L. (James Luther), 1936-2008 ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Life Magazine Birmingham (Ala.) 1932 Keeping in Touch with the Movement Have you had any contact with any of the notable individuals you knew then? Bryant states that if she hadn't moved to Los Angeles, she would have remained actively involved in the movement. Cotton, Dorothy F., 1930- ; Young, Andrew, 1932- Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1992 Conclusion of Interview Thank you very much. You've been quite a help for us and we will be in touch with you and allow you to view this as well. Interview is concluded. Oral History Danella Bryant discusses being arrested multiple times while demonstrating as a child. She attended the March on Washington and eventually moved to Los Angeles after the bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Danella Jones Bryant for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 23, 1995. Ms. Bryant. Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit with us today. What I want to do initially is to just start talking about your background. Tell me a bit about your parents. Where were they from? Were they from Jefferson County? BRYANT: My mom was born in Andalusia, Alabama. My dad was born, I think in Vicksburg, Mississippi and they moved to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Birmingham? BRYANT: Oh, yes. I was born in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: What about your parents' ; education and occupation? BRYANT: My mom only had an eighth-grade education. My mom worked in domestics. She worked as a maid, if you will, a housekeeper at one of the local hospitals in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Which hospital? BRYANT: It was South Highland. HUNTLEY: And your father. HUNTLEY: My father was self-employed. He owned his own business. He made and repaired hats, men' ; s hats. He had always been in that line of business. HUNTLEY: What was his business called? BRYANT: Dan, The Hatter. HUNTLEY: A very well-known person in Birmingham. Did you have brothers and sisters? BRYANT: Oh yes. I have a younger brother and I have a half-sister. HUNTLEY: So there were three of you? BRYANT: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a bit about your education. BRYANT: I went to Lincoln Elementary School and Parker High School. I graduated in ' ; 64. After graduating I moved to Los Angeles. I attended Los Angeles City College as well as the University of California-Los Angeles, UCLA as it' ; s better known, but I didn' ; t graduate. I came back to Birmingham and I have a degree as a word processing specialist from the Southern Institute here in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: So you have been in the Birmingham school system and you finished at Parker. You' ; re one of the Thundering Herd I assume? BRYANT: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me just a bit about Parker as a student. BRYANT: Well, other than it was a great, great high school. I had some great teachers. I remember one in particular ; her name was M. C. Handy. I was having a little problem with math. I didn' ; t think I was a very good math student and she changed my mind about that. She was my Algebra I teacher. And I came out of it with a B+ so I felt pretty good about that. HUNTLEY: What about relationships with other students? BRYANT: Oh, I intermingled with all the kids. I was pretty popular. I was a cheerleader and president of the French Club. I couldn' ; t speak very much French though. I traveled with the football team when we played games and things, so I was pretty active. I was very open, very outgoing person. I always have been. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in? BRYANT: I lived in the Smithfield area. I was raised there. HUNTLEY: Can you describe what the community was like at that time? BRYANT: Well, it was a close-knit community. Everyone kind of looked out for one another. If you saw somebody' ; s child doing something he shouldn' ; t have been, he got in trouble and he got a spanking for it. Not like these days. We were kind of close knit. Everyone was close knit and cared about one another. And we had similar goals. It was a good community. HUNTLEY: Growing up in Birmingham were there ever any incidents that really made you know that made know that you did not have all of the rights and privileges that other citizens had? BRYANT: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: Can you elaborate on one or two of those? BRYANT: Well, I remember one incident that sticks out in my mind very well. I was coming home from school one day with some of my girlfriends and we were walking. And this pick- up truck passed by. I believe I was in my junior year of High School, and it was three White guys in the pick-up truck and they yelled out at us. HUNTLEY: What did they yell? BRYANT: Hey you niggers. You niggers go home. I was pretty upset and I was really hurt about it. And so when I got home I talked to my parents about it and they basically just told me that they were just ignorant and don' ; t worry about it. They don' ; t really realize what they are doing. But it kind of stuck in my mind. It made me realize things were not right in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Were there any other incidents that you may remember? Do you remember riding the bus, do you remember going downtown to any of the theaters? BRYANT: Oh, yes. I remember every time I got on the bus, if it was crowded in the back and there were seats in the front, I had to stand up. And I never liked that. I felt that was unfair. I remember not understanding why I couldn' ; t go to the Alabama Theater. I had to go to the Lyric and sit upstairs where there were rats and roaches and everything. I remembered that and I didn' ; t like it. HUNTLEY: Well, it appears that you had at an early age, decided there were things that you did not like. By the time the Movement came around, it appeared that you probably had already made some decisions about what you wanted out of life? BRYANT: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: How then did you get involved in the Movement? What were the circumstances of your getting involved in the Movement? BRYANT: Well, I think how I first got involved in the Movement was my uncle, God rest his soul, Jimmy Walker. He was very active in churches and he was a Christian man. He first told me about the meetings, the mass meetings that were in town and what was going on. And of course, I' ; ve always been curious, and I decided to go and I did. And I never will forget. I was just spell bound. I felt like this was the answer to my prayers. I couldn' ; t believe it. Oh, my goodness. I tried to be there every night. HUNTLEY: Now you were what, 14 or 15 years old at the time? BRYANT: I was sixteen years old. HUNTLEY: But you felt that this was what you had been waiting for? BRYANT: It was the answer to my prayers. HUNTLEY: So when you started going to the mass meetings, can you describe what a typical mass meeting was like? BRYANT: The mass meetings were where people got together and they talked about getting their rights. Being able to do the things that they couldn' ; t do in a non-violent way. And that really impressed me because I wasn' ; t into violence. God was involved. We always had prayer. We always held hands and it was like we were a family with one common goal. And so that' ; s basically what it was. We shall overcome is a song I won' ; t ever forget. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me what was the relationship between your community and the police department? Did you ever have any incidents of being accosted by the police? BRYANT: Oh, yes. I remember it was during the time that Rev. Shuttlesworth' ; s house was bombed. An acquaintance of mine and I were out riding. It was late in the evening and the police came out of nowhere and stopped us. He came over to the driver' ; s side and asked my friend for his driver' ; s license and he showed it to him. And he was saying something nasty to him and told him to get out of the car and that he was going to arrest him. By this time I had gotten out of the car and I asked him, " ; Sir, why are you arresting him? What have we done? We didn' ; t run a red light. We didn' ; t do anything?" ; And so, he pushed me to the ground. I had a hat on and I think I had some jeans and a shirt or a sweater or something on and he put the gun to my head and he said, " ; I could blow your brains out and no one would even care." ; And as soon as he said that he snatched my hat off and my hair fell down to my shoulders. And he looks to his partner and he says, " ; Oh, this is a nigger bitch." ; So then he told me to get up and run and don' ; t look back. He said, " ; I mean you better not look back." ; And that' ; s what I did. I was scared. HUNTLEY: Where did you run to? BRYANT: I ran to one of the apartments. The first apartment I saw, I knocked on the door. It was an older lady, she was very sweet. She opened the door and I explained to her what happened, and she let me in, hugged me. Then I called my mother and I told my mom what happened. She was real upset. So, the lady and my mother decided that I should spend the night there and my dad picked me up the next morning. HUNTLEY: Did you know the lady? BRYANT: I didn' ; t know her personally, but she knew our family. And at that time things were different. You could do that. HUNTLEY: During the Movement you participated in demonstrations? BRYANT: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: You were also a student leader at Parker? BRYANT: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you assisted attracting other students to the Movement? BRYANT: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me something about that? BRYANT: Well, I would go to my school, I was a senior and I would try and recruit kids, especially in my classroom or in the club that I was involved in, the cheerleaders. Just any of the kids and try to explain to them what was going on and that they needed to join us. I did it on several occasions. And I did recruit some. It wasn' ; t a great deal. But I did because they were kind of scared. HUNTLEY: During May of ' ; 63 when organizers were going to various schools to entice students to leave school and go and get involved in the Movement from 16th Street, were you involved in that? BRYANT: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: How did that operate? Did you leave school during that time yourself? BRYANT: Oh, yes. On many occasions. My parents were afraid I wasn' ; t going to graduate because I did that, but I was a good student and I did graduate. HUNTLEY: But you were actively involved in attracting others? BRYANT: I was very actively involved. HUNTLEY: In fact, you were a junior member of the organization I assume? BRYANT: Oh, yes a junior staff member. Well, we would have strategy meetings and this would consist of how we would plan, you know when we were going to march, where we were going to march, how many of us, who was going to be our partners and this type of thing. That' ; s basically what that was. HUNTLEY: Did you ever go to jail? BRYANT: Yes. HUNTLEY: Do you remember the first time you went to jail? BRYANT: The first time I went to jail, if I am not mistaken, I think if you' ; re over 16 you go to jail. But at that time, I was over 16 but I said I was under 16 because I didn' ; t want to go to jail. I went to juvenile. That' ; s when I made up my mind that I would never do anything wrong. I remember this big old matronly lady that was screaming and hollering at us and telling us that if we don' ; t get in the bed and shut up what she was going to do to us. It wasn' ; t a very nice experience, but I didn' ; t mind it at the time. I really didn' ; t because it was for a good cause. HUNTLEY: Why were you arrested? BRYANT: Just for marching. HUNTLEY: So you were marching and you were arrested along with several other people? BRYANT: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: Were you taken to juvenile in a paddy wagon or police car? BRYANT: Paddy wagon, just like regular people that get arrested. A bunch of us. HUNTLEY: What else do you remember about being in juvenile detention? BRYANT: It was overcrowded. The food was horrible and I knew that I never wanted to go there if I didn' ; t have to. I knew I never wanted to do anything wrong. I knew they were going to get me out if I wanted to. But I always stayed. Some of the kids didn' ; t want to stay very long, but I always stayed until they got me out. HUNTLEY: How long did you stay? BRYANT: Well, the first time I think about a week. And one time I stayed two weeks. Now the last time I went I think I stayed about a week. HUNTLEY: What were the other circumstances of your arrest? You said you were arrested two or three times? BRYANT: Well, it was basically the same. It was always for marching and they decided that they wanted to take some Blacks to jail, or niggers as they called us. HUNTLEY: Did you always go to the juvenile detention? BRYANT: Yes. HUNTLEY: You were never housed in the jail? BRYANT: No. HUNTLEY: You were also arrested in St. Petersburg, Florida? BRYANT: St. Augustine. HUNTLEY: I' ; m sorry, St. Augustine. Why? What were you doing in St. Augustine? BRYANT: We were marching down there trying to recruit and get kids involved in our movement and we got arrested down there. HUNTLEY: What was that experience like? BRYANT: The same. It was a jail. I didn' ; t like it but it was for a good cause and I was willing to do whatever it took for us to succeed in what we were trying to do. HUNTLEY: You, of course, were closely associated then with some of the people that would be household names. Can you tell us about any of those individuals? BRYANT: Well, James Bevels was basically the person that did the recruiting of all the younger kids. We had our own mass meeting and the adults had their own mass meeting. Of course, we had them together also, so did Andrew Young. He worked along with James Bevels. I remember him distinctly because he was the one that really recruited me. HUNTLEY: Bevels did? BRYANT: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you have an opportunity to meet and talk with Dr. King? BRYANT: No. I didn' ; t actually talk with him personally. I had been in the same meetings with him, I saw him, but no, I didn' ; t actually speak with him one-on-one, no. HUNTLEY: You also attended the March on Washington. BRYANT: Oh, yes I did. I' ; m very proud of that. HUNTLEY: You were very active as a young person at that time. Tell me about that experience? BRYANT: Oh, that was an experience. Well, we had decided in a meeting that we were going to take it to the capital and it had been planned for months and months. And the bus trip was only $8, can you believe it? So my parents got the money up and we went. A whole bunch of us and it was something I will never forget. I have never seen that many people in one place in my entire life for one cause. Everybody was there for the same thing. It was a beautiful experience. I enjoyed it. Even now when I see it being televised sometimes on TV it brings back memories. I remember it distinctly. HUNTLEY: In talking to a number of other young people, some people who attended Ullman or who attended Parker, one individual suggested that she remembered the day of one of the demonstrations, a massive demonstration where she initially went towards school but she didn' ; t quite get to school because there were others who were recruiting ; and told them to come on to the church. Did you have that kind of experience or were you one of those that were in school and left school or did you make any detours? BRYANT: Both. HUNTLEY: What were your parents saying as a result of your activity? BRYANT: Well, my mother was a little worried about me not graduating. But then she knew I had made good grades and everything and she knew I was really involved and she really didn' ; t make a big fuss about it because it was something I was committed to do. And it was a good thing. HUNTLEY: Well, were there others that were close to you, friends of yours that were as actively involved as you were? BRYANT: There were three young ladies that I particularly hung out with that I tried and tried and tried to recruit them. But they would not get involved. And unfortunately, by me being so young and naive, at the time I can say now that they were afraid, but at that time I was pretty upset with them. Because they would not get involved at all. HUNTLEY: Were others in your family, your parents or your siblings were they involved? BRYANT: My brother went to jail. He wasn' ; t as active as I was, but he did go to jail because I told him he needed to march and he needed to take a stand. And my mother and my great aunts and uncles they all went to the mass meetings. HUNTLEY: So in your family, you didn' ; t have people who were discouraging you? BRYANT: Oh, no. I was really encouraged by my family. HUNTLEY: What about teachers at your school? BRYANT: Well, they kind of secretly commended me. They couldn' ; t do it openly because I guess they were afraid for their jobs and everything. But I had several teachers that would say, " ; Danella, you' ; re doing a good thing and we' ; re really proud of you." ; HUNTLEY: So you were encouraged all throughout then to get involved? BRYANT: Yes. HUNTLEY: How do you think your involvement impacted upon you as a person? BRYANT: Well, I think personally it taught me about commitment and it made me understand about race relations a lot. It helped me a lot in a lot of ways. When I first moved to LA I was pretty bitter about certain things. But, eventually, I calmed down and it helped me a lot. It really helped me a lot. HUNTLEY: Why were you bitter? BRYANT: Racism is everywhere. But to me L.A. was a little better than Birmingham. And when I was in school I met some White girls and they wanted to be my friends. I didn' ; t particularly want to be their friends but they seemed genuinely hurt by it. And, then, I started telling them what was going on in Birmingham and they said something to me like, " ; Danella, I don' ; t have anything to do with that. I never lived in the south." ; So I sort of changed from that. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances of your moving to Los Angeles? BRYANT: Well, after my last time in jail, which was in St. Augustine, my aunt flew in from Los Angeles to visit the family. And I had no idea that the family really wanted me to leave, to get away. They were beginning to get worried especially after the bombing of the church. So, I got out of jail and my aunt took me to Los Angeles which was in July of ' ; 64. HUNTLEY: You were in Birmingham when the 16th Street Church was bombed? BRYANT: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about that? BRYANT: I remember that we had had a lot of our meetings there. I didn' ; t belong to that church. I wasn' ; t a member. But I used to go there a lot. I had a lot of friends there and I liked the church. They were having something special if I can remember, this particular Sunday and I told my mother that I wanted to go to 16th Street Baptist Church to Sunday School. So she said, well fine, but I forgot to set my clock and I overslept. If I can recall, my uncle ran in the living room and told my mom, I heard him say, " ; They just bombed 16th Street Baptist Church and some people were killed." ; I don' ; t really remember what happened. I remember I was crying and screaming and carrying on because I knew some children were down there. Some people were dead. I would have been there too. HUNTLEY: If you had not overslept you would have been at 16th Street that morning? BRYANT: Yes. So I think after that happened, my family kind of changed. They really wanted me to leave. So that was a sad day in everybody' ; s life. It was really, really sad. Even when I first came back from L.A. and I went to 16th Street Baptist Church to look at it, it just brought all of the memories back. HUNTLEY: So your family sent you to Los Angeles really for your protection? BRYANT: Yes. As far as they were concerned. HUNTLEY: Were there ever instances where, as a young student, that you were simply frightened of what you were involved in? The demonstrations or any of the other occurrences that happened. Were you ever just really afraid for your safety? BRYANT: The only time I was afraid was when that man put that gun to my head. Other than that I can' ; t say that I was. I wasn' ; t afraid. All I could see was I wanted my freedom. I wanted the freedom for my people. HUNTLEY: If you could turn the clock back, knowing what you know now and you could go back through the Movement and you had the ability to change any of the things that you went through, what would you change? BRYANT: If I had the ability to change, first of all, I would tell everybody not to go to church that day the church was bombed. That' ; s the main thing. HUNTLEY: What about your activity? Would you change any of the things that you were actively involved in? BRYANT: Oh, no. I would do everything exactly the same. I think it was just something that I was supposed to do. It was a very positive time in my life and I' ; m proud of that. HUNTLEY: How did that period then shape the rest of your life? Since you left Birmingham right out of high school and you spent much of your adult life in Los Angeles, how did the experiences here in Birmingham help to shape you? BRYANT: Well, it helped to shape me in a lot of ways. It made me a better person by, first of all, not doing anything wrong, but I never wanted to go to jail. L.A. is a fast town. I stayed pretty much an Alabama girl in L.A. It helped me with race relations. I can intermingle with anyone with no problem. And it made me understand about commitment and focusing on positive things and unity and the Black community and how important that is to everyone. HUNTLEY: You are now a member of the advisory committee for the Civil Rights Institute? BRYANT: Yes, I am. HUNTLEY: What things have not been done at the Institute that you would like to see happen with that institution? BRYANT: Well, one of the things I would like to -- we are in the process, hopefully of having a forum with young people from various schools all over the State of Alabama and to bring to them what the young people in our era went through. And we are just trying to figure out exactly how we want to do that so that they would really listen. Because this is a different day and age and the kids are a lot different than they were 30 years ago. But, I believe if they really understood exactly what our focus and our motives were it can kind of blend in with what' ; s going on today and they would be better able to deal with their lives. HUNTLEY: Do you see that as being an ongoing activity or a one-time sort of occurrence? BRYANT: Oh, no. Ongoing. Because young people are our future. So we have got to invest in young people. HUNTLEY: You have enlightened us today with all the activities that you were involved in as a young person and that' ; s very commendable. I do remember though that you appeared in Life magazine. BRYANT: Oh, yes. I sure did. HUNTLEY: What was the occasion? BRYANT: Well, we had been marching. It was right across from the city jail. And we had stopped for prayer. Oh, they were spraying the hoses as usual. They had the dogs. Of course, I had become accustomed to them by now. And I just fell to my knees and started praying to God because no other help I know. I had no idea I was being photographed until James Bevel, Rev. Bevel showed me the picture in Life magazine. HUNTLEY: How did he show it to you? Were you at a meeting? BRYANT: No. He came to my parents home and he had the magazine in his hand he just said casually, " ; I have something to show you Danella." ; I said, " ; Okay." ; And I said, " ; Oh, that' ; s me." ; He said, " ; Yes." ; And that' ; s how it came about. HUNTLEY: Have you had any contact with any of the notable individuals you knew then? Have you had any contact with them in recent years? BRYANT: Well, we had a program last year, I believe, if I' ; m not mistaken and I talked with Andrew Young. Whenever he' ; s in town I usually get a chance to speak to him and Dorothy Cotton. I know them very well. I always tell my parents if you had not made me go to L.A. I would have gone with Dorothy and Andy and still been involved actively. HUNTLEY: So do you regret then having gone to L.A.? BRYANT: A lot of times I do. I really do. But it was just my destiny. HUNTLEY: Well, is there anything else that you would like to add that we may not have touched upon today that you would like to share with the people that would read and view this? BRYANT: No. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. You' ; ve been quite a help for us and we will be in touch with you and allow you to view this as well. BRYANT: Okay. HUNTLEY: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
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Danella Bryant
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Danella Bryant discusses being arrested multiple times while demonstrating as a child. She attended the March on Washington and eventually moved to Los Angeles after the bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church.
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19950623B
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Young, Andrew, 1932-
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1995-06-23
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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bcriohp
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Horace Huntley
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Emma Smith Young
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5.4 September 20, 1995 Emma Smith Young 19950920C 0:52:07 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Buses Emma Smith Young Horace Huntley Video 1:|13(6)|31(11)|54(7)|76(9)|82(10)|82(12)|87(2)|103(1)|136(6)|159(6)|180(8)|197(2)|209(11)|220(10)|237(15)|251(19)|270(3)|287(4)|306(8)|325(2)|339(18)|366(7)|389(7)|411(9)|427(13)|453(8)|478(8)|494(9)|514(14)|525(5)|546(7)|568(3)|581(11)|589(16)|602(16)|611(2)|615(3)|627(13)|644(3)|657(11)|672(10)|691(2)|706(13)|723(7)|735(3)|750(14)|766(11)|782(12)|796(11)|808(6)|818(6) 0 https://youtu.be/Zh-nvlNwGIk YouTube video English 22 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Emma Young for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Emma Young is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 46 Family Background I want to start by asking some general questions about your background. Where were you from? Young recalls how her mother worked as a farmer but moved to Birmingham because she wasn't being paid enough. African Americans--Agriculture ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Farmer Racism ; Wilcox County (Ala.) 490 Moving Around Birmingham What community did you live in when you first got here? Young recalls how she moved around Birmingham a lot because of her husband's job. Grasselli Heights ; Hopewell Baptist Church ; Woodward's Ore Mine Birmingham (Ala.) 658 Working as a House Maid When you got to Birmingham, did you work outside of the home? Young discusses how she worked from her home and did other people's laundry and sometimes cooked for them. Laundry ; Washing machines Birmingham (Ala.) ; Domestic Work ; Racism 972 Relationship with Her Husband Did you have a close relationship with him? Young states that she and her husband had a tough relationship but she stayed with him for fifty years. Bootleg ; Husband and wife African Americans--Marriage ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1084 Raising Money for the Movement Well, tell me what was the mass meeting like? Young describes how they raised money to fund the Movement and demonstrations. Alabama. Supreme Court ; Civil rights movement ; Mass meetings ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1233 Sitting in the White Section on the Bus You mean you sat on the buses? Young recalls following Dr. King's orders to sit at the front of the bus and refuse to move. African Americans--Segregation ; Buses ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1296 Participation in the Demonstrations Did you ever take part in any of the demonstrations? Young recalls watching Bull Connor spray Reverend Shuttlesworth with the hoses so hard that it knocked him off the steps. Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama 1369 Her Family's Participation in the Movement So this is your son, now. He was real active in the Movement? Young describes how everyone including her grandkids were involved in the Movement and even went to jail for the cause. Civil rights movement ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) 1585 Rabbis Attending Mass Meetings in Birmingham There was a situation once where some white ministers that were in the meeting, would you tell me about that? Young discusses how Bull Connor told the white Rabbis to get out of the mass meeting and then sprayed the Black people with hoses when they took the meeting to City Hall. Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; Oklahoma City (Okla.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Judaism ; Racism 1840 Memories of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church Bombing Do you remember when the 16th Street Church was bombed and those little girls were killed? Young recalls how she did not attend Sixteenth Street Baptist Church but she attended the funeral of the four girls along with several rabbis. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; 6th Avenue Baptist Church Birmingham (Ala.) 1923 Participation in the Selma to Montgomery March You also participated in the Selma to Montgomery March? Young discusses marching from Selma to Montgomery and how George Wallace would not allow them to enter the capital when they arrived in Montgomery. Liuzzo, Viola, 1925-1965 ; Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) ; Wallace, George C. (George Corley), 1919-1998 Montgomery (Ala.) ; Selma (Ala.) 2062 Having a Heart Attack at Dr. King's Funeral You also participated at the funeral of Dr. King in Atlanta? Young recalls how she had a heart attack walking to Dr. King's funeral and how she eventually made it to Morehouse yard to listen to the funeral. funeral ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) Atlanta (Ga.) 2227 Life in Birmingham Before the Movement What was Birmingham like before the Movement? Young recalls how she would refuse to give up her seat on the bus even before the Movement had started. African Americans--Segregation Birmingham (Ala.) 2403 Success of the Movement So, do you think that the Movement was successful? Young states that the Movement was very successful because Dr. King and Reverend Shuttlesworth fought for equal rights. Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 2511 Effects of the Brown v. Board of Education Ruling So the Supreme Court, obviously what you're doing, you're talking about the Supreme Court and Brown v Board of Education who changes the school system, for instance. Young recalls George Wallace standing on the steps of the University of Alabama refusing to let Black students enter, even after the Supreme Court ruling. Alabama. Supreme Court ; Stand in the Schoolhouse Door ; University of Alabama ; Wallace, George C. (George Corley), 1919-1998 Brown vs. Board of Education of Topeka ; Tuscaloosa (Ala.) 2635 Widespread Change in Birmingham You have obviously had a wide varied experience in the civil rights movement. Young recalls how people of all ages participated in the Movement and caused the change in Birmingham. Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) 2753 Her Community's Involvement in the Movement Were there other people in your community that were involved in the Movement? Young recalls how most everyone was involved in the Movement and Rev. Porter let the Movement gather in his church despite his congregation's fears. 6th Avenue Baptist Church ; Abraham Woods ; Civil rights movement ; John Porter ; Woods, Calvin Wallace 6th Avenue Baptist Church ; Birmingham (Ala.) 2909 Fearlessness and Freedom In closing, did you enjoy the Movement or were you afraid? Young recalls how she was so excited for the Movement that she was not afraid because they were working toward freedom. Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.) 3072 Conclusion of Interview Well, I want to thank you for taking your time out and coming and sitting with us. Interview is concluded. Oral History Emma Smith Young discusses participating in the Selma to Montgomery March after being very involved in the Movement in Birmingham. She was arrested during a Birmingham demonstration and attended Dr. King's funeral in D.C. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Emma Young for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College and today is September 29, 1995. Thank you Mrs. Young for taking time out of your vacation to talk with us about the civil rights movement. You are here from Chicago, right? YOUNG: Right. HUNTLEY: I want to start by asking some general questions about your background. Where were you from? YOUNG: My home is Camden, Alabama in Wilcox County. HUNTLEY: Were your parents from Wilcox County? YOUNG: Yes. HUNTLEY: How long did you live in Wilcox County? YOUNG: Until I was between 17 and 18 when I left there. I came to Birmingham in 1921. HUNTLEY: And you were born what year? YOUNG: 1902. HUNTLEY: So, that makes you how old. you are 92 years old? YOUNG: 92 years old. I will soon be 93. HUNTLEY: So, you will soon be 93 years young. That' ; s great. HUNTLEY: Did you have any brothers and sisters? YOUNG: Yeah. I had one sister. HUNTLEY: Is she still living? YOUNG: No, she died several years, ago. Her name was Lola McGraw. HUNTLEY: And how many children did you have? YOUNG: Three. HUNTLEY: Three children. YOUNG: One boy and two girls. HUNTLEY: And were they born in Wilcox County? YOUNG: Two of them were, the two oldest ones. Dave and Eula Mae were born in Camden. And Mamie was born in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Well, when you moved to Birmingham, what kind of work were you doing? YOUNG: I wasn' ; t doing any work at the time. My mother was farming and I was going to school. HUNTLEY: How much schooling did you have? YOUNG: I didn' ; t get but to the fifth grade. HUNTLEY: Did you live with your mother and your daddy? YOUNG: Yes. I lived with my mother, because my daddy was gone. . . HUNTLEY: Well, how old were you when he left? YOUNG: I was age four, when he left. HUNTLEY: Then you remained in Camden and you moved to Birmingham, actually, after you married, right? YOUNG: Yes. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your husband do? YOUNG: He did cement work. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to move from Camden to Birmingham? YOUNG: Well, my mother got tired of Camden' ; s White people. At the end of the farm season they took out too much pay. Mamma didn' ; t make but two bales of cotton and they took those two for their pay and left her with nothing. So she said she was leaving there. Then and going someplace where she could do better. HUNTLEY: So, she left before you left? YOUNG: Yes, she left, first and then, me and my husband decided to leave. After my husband checked with my step-daddy about a job at the cement plant. HUNTLEY: So, your husband worked in the cement plant when he first got here? YOUNG: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you live with your mother when you first got here? YOUNG: Yes, at first, but me and my husband got a room... a house ...a two room house. HUNTLEY: Well, how long did he work in the cement plan? Did he go into another occupation? YOUNG: Well, after he left there he went so many different places, but he ended up in the ore mine. And that' ; s where he died ...in the ore mine. HUNTLEY: So, he worked many years in the ore mine. YOUNG: That' ; s where he retired...in the ore mine. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in when you first got here? YOUNG: Hillman. HUNTLEY: In Hillman. YOUNG: Hillman Station. HUNTLEY: And what church were you affiliated with? YOUNG: Hopewell. HUNTLEY: Hopewell Baptist Church? YOUNG: Yes. Hopewell Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: And when he started to work in the mines, did you still stay in Hillman? YOUNG: No. we moved all around. We moved down in Cairo. You know where St. Luke? HUNTLEY: Right. YOUNG: Well, she joined St. Luke, then and after she joined St. Luke, I joined St. Luke. HUNTLEY: Then, were you still living in Hillman at that time? YOUNG: We were at the time...but after he started working in the ore mine, we moved to Woodward' ; s. Right down there on Woodward' ; s Ore Mine. HUNTLEY: So, he worked for Woodward' ; s Ore Mine? YOUNG: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were you renting a house from the company? YOUNG: Yes. Yes. HUNTLEY: How long did you live there? Did you move from there? And then did you move to another place? YOUNG: Well, we moved all around. We when back to Hillman then, we left Hillman and when to Grasselli Height where we are, now. HUNTLEY: Were you renting on Grasselli Heights or were you buying your own home? YOUNG: We were buying on Grasselli Heights. HUNTLEY: So, that was sort of a move up, then when you moved to Grasselli Heights. YOUNG: Yes. We had moved up. And Mamma had got on social security, but they did not call it social security then. They called it.... HUNTLEY: ...pension. YOUNG: P.T.A. or something. HUNTLEY: Okay. But she was receiving monies from the government, I assume? YOUNG: From the government, yes. HUNTLEY: Was she living with you all at that time? YOUNG: No. She was living in her house. We were living in ours. HUNTLEY: Were they close together, in the same community? YOUNG: Yes. That' ; s when we were in Hillman we lived close together. But on Grasselli Heights, where we are now, we lived together. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did you do? You had three children. We know that when you were in Camden, you were a housewife. YOUNG: Yes. HUNTLEY: When you got to Birmingham, did you work outside of the home? YOUNG: Yes. I always run my ad and I would get a job for being just a maid. Or else I would be a cook, something like that, for housework. Well, then I did this. HUNTLEY: What is that washing, the rub board? YOUNG: Rub board. Well we did the rub board wash at that time. HUNTLEY: Did you take washing into your home or did you go to their home? YOUNG: I go to their home and do it. Finally, I started taking it in my home. When I got up high enough to get me a washer and dryer of my own, then I went to taking in washing and ironing. I would wash for all the people that were working out somewhere and didn' ; t have to wash when they come home. When they come home they would be too tired to wash. So I be done washed the clothes and ironed them. HUNTLEY: Were these Black folk or White folk that you were washing for? YOUNG: Well, I worked both colors, the Black and the White. HUNTLEY: You also worked as a cook, right? YOUNG: Yes. I was a cook at first, but I went up from there to a laundry. And I worked at the Snow White Laundry and I just can' ; t think of the first one I worked at. But, then I went up from there to the hotel. I worked at the Gary Hotel in Bessemer. I worked in a hotel in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: We never could figure out where that hotel was, but you evidently were pretty good at what you did, because you could always get a job, is that right? YOUNG: Yes, I could always get a job because I could iron shirts so good. I could fix collars like men like them you know. I could keep that crease from (Inaudible) and I could handle a shirt so good, everybody wanted me to wash and iron for them. So one lady I worked for, Miss Florence, one day I quit that because she was trying to make a fool out of me. She said, " ; Oh, my girl just work. She can iron a shirt like nobody' ; s business. Oh, I wish you could iron one for me. I' ; ll get one over there for you and I' ; ll put two or three clothes in with my clothes and (Inaudible) let you see how she can iron." ; So she went and put them in and I knew the clothes. And she said, I asked her, " ; Why did she have more clothes this week?" ; I said, " ; I don' ; t like you adding more clothes than I been washing." ; She said, " ; All them was my clothes." ; Well, I found out they were Ms. Daniels clothes and her name was Ms. Florence, and I just walked off and left them there. HUNTLEY: So you didn' ; t finish that job? YOUNG: She had the clothes spread on the ground. When I got there (Inaudible) fire made up and everything ready and when she saw me again I was back at home. HUNTLEY: So you decided that you were not going to iron for somebody and not get paid for it? YOUNG: I said, " ; I' ; m not going to let her make a fool out of me." ; I say, " ; I' ; m not going to wash those other people' ; s clothes. If they want me, let them hire me." ; Then she went to tell me, " ; Emma, (Inaudible) job for you. Can' ; t you do another job?" ; I say, " ; Oh, yes, (Inaudible)" ; I wasn' ; t making but $3.00 at that one. And so, I say, " ; Well, I could take something and do those three with the $3.00." ; Because I could take $1.00 and go put it on a layaway and put that other dollar on another layaway and when the end of the month, I would have all my dollars get together and get all that stuff out. So I' ; d have plenty. HUNTLEY: So you were usually pretty well dressed? YOUNG: Yes. They wondered, " ; where that woman get so much of something." ; " ; Where she get so and so." ; They couldn' ; t tell where I was getting it from because I was working and getting it. But it wasn' ; t none of their business. So I said, I work and get what I got. I' ; m entitled to use what I got and that' ; s what I' ; m going to do. HUNTLEY: So you were working for yourself and your children, I assume? YOUNG: Yes, my three children. My husband is gone over to the bootlegger' ; s house. HUNTLEY: Did you have a close relationship with him? YOUNG: I didn' ; t take up with him at all. I just let him be there. I didn' ; t take up with bootleggers. He said I thought I was better than them. Well, I didn' ; t take up what I didn' ; t like, that kind of stuff. I wanted to go to church every Sunday and everyday I wanted to go to church, so I did. I left my husband because he wanted to know why didn' ; t I go with him sometime. I said, " ; Why don' ; t you go with me sometime." ; HUNTLEY: So you both were doing different kinds of things? YOUNG: Yes. He went to the bootleggers and I went to church. HUNTLEY: Well, how did that effect your children? YOUNG: Oh, it affected my children very much because he was in and out. Living over there this week, and next week over there. And living with a step mamma over there. And living with me over there and living with him over there. We did that for a long time. But altogether we stayed together for 50 years. HUNTLEY: You and your husband were together for 50 years? YOUNG: We stayed together for 50 years. HUNTLEY: And that' ; s remarkable, because of course, people stay together 50 minutes. YOUNG: Two hours. HUNTLEY: Well, I know that you were very active in the Movement. I would just like to ask you a question about the Movement. At the time the Movement was going on in 1963, well even before then, you attended the mass meetings. YOUNG: I went to all of the mass meetings. HUNTLEY: Well, tell me what was the mass meeting like? YOUNG: It was fine. We would sing and pray and pick up money to pay to the Supreme Court. HUNTLEY: Pay to the Supreme Court? YOUNG: To the man that the Supreme Court would give us what we wanted. Because he tell him I want my freedom and I want it now. They said you couldn' ; t get it now, you had to wait for it. They said, I don' ; t want to wait. I want my freedom now. We helped to get his freedom now. HUNTLEY: So that was what the Movement was about, was about freedom? YOUNG: Yes. Freedom Riders. He told us Freedom Riders. They named us Freedom Riders and I was riding everywhere they rode. HUNTLEY: So the meetings were at different places, this is what you are referring to? YOUNG: Yes, different churches. Sometimes we have so many, we have two or three churches full. We have the walkie talkies and everything over there in the (Inaudible) homes and the talk over there in that church. We could hear what they were saying over there. HUNTLEY: You knew Fred Shuttlesworth? YOUNG: Yes. Shuttlesworth was the president. HUNTLEY: He was the president of the Alabama Christian Movement. Who were some of the other individuals that you got to meet that were...YOUNG: Rev. Gardner after Shuttlesworth put it down, he took it up. Then Abernathy and Andy Young and some more, I can' ; t remember all of them. James Bevill and so, we just had a meeting all the time until we raised the money to get us up to where we wanted to get. HUNTLEY: You were raising money to keep the Movement going? YOUNG: Keep the Movement going and to get to where we were trying to get to. We were trying to get a chance to sit on the buses without being interrupted or having to go to the back. When you get on a bus, just sit down, he said. Rev. Martin Luther King had told us, when you get on the bus, have a seat right there, don' ; t pick no seat. Don' ; t go back there in the back. If they tell you to get up, don' ; t get up, so we didn' ; t. I got a kick out of sitting there. HUNTLEY: You mean you sat on the buses? YOUNG: I sat right there and they get up there beside me, they would put their books down to keep you from sitting there. I take the book and put it on over (Inaudible). HUNTLEY: Oh, you mean some White person would get on the bus and sit down and, then, put their book in the seat so you could not sit down? YOUNG: Yes. HUNTLEY: So you would move the books? YOUNG: I' ; d move the book and put it anywhere and I' ; d just sit, right where I' ; m sitting. Martin Luther had told me what to do and so I was doing it. One lady come along and she said, " ; Don' ; t bother that nigger, that' ; s one of them old Martin Luther King niggers." ; I said, " ; Yes, I am." ; HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested for sitting on the bus? YOUNG: No, I wasn' ; t arrested, because Martin Luther King told me don' ; t say a word, don' ; t you hit them, just don' ; t hit them and let them hit you but don' ; t you hit them. Just sit there and don' ; t say a word and don' ; t move. HUNTLEY: Did you ever take part in any of the demonstrations? YOUNG: I went in all of the demonstrations. Every time we marched up to city hall, I marched up there. Everywhere they wanted to march. We marched to Selma, I marched down there. HUNTLEY: Tell me what some of the demonstrations were like here in Birmingham? You were at 16th Street Baptist Church? YOUNG: 16th Street Baptist Church when they put all the water on Shuttlesworth (Inaudible). HUNTLEY: You were there when Shuttlesworth was hit with water and knocked off the steps at 16th Street? YOUNG: Dave tried to go across there, my son Dave, and pick up Shuttlesworth to keep them from killing him. And, Bull Conner sitting right over there talking about " ; Put that water on the nigger." ; He just put the water on him and Shuttlesworth go farther, farther and farther. They were just wetting him, wetting up Dave and he got so mad, he wanted to go on out there and I pulled him back. I said, " ; Don' ; t go out there, that man say for you not to come out of there." ; Dave wanted to just buck against me and go out there anyway. I say, " ; Don' ; t you go out there and let that man kill you because I couldn' ; t take it. I couldn' ; t stand here and see him shoot you down." ; HUNTLEY: So this is your son, now. He was real active in the Movement? YOUNG: Yes. HUNTLEY: Was that why you were involved because he was there? YOUNG: Yes. That' ; s why I was there. I got started on account of him. He was going and his wife wanted to go and, then, I wanted to go. (Inaudible) soon enough. When he said, let' ; s go, I' ; m going to the Movement. He said, " ; All right, get ready, mamma." ; I said, " ; I' ; m ready." ; HUNTLEY: Did your husband ever attend any of the meetings? YOUNG: He didn' ; t ever go. HUNTLEY: Why didn' ; t he go? YOUNG: He didn' ; t pay it no attention. He thought nothing of it. He say, " ; Them folk going to kill y' ; all out there acting a fool." ; That' ; s all he would give us. They called him Uncle Tom. HUNTLEY: What did your son say about his father not participating? YOUNG: He said " ; All old folks ought to be dead." ; HUNTLEY: " ; All old folks ought to be dead?" ; What did you say to that? YOUNG: I say, " ; Why you think all old folks." ; I say, " ; Your mamma and your papa both is old. He say, " ; I can' ; t help it." ; He say, " ; Because all them old folks out the way, these young folks can get something done." ; I said, " ; I tell you what, if these old folks would get themselves down there," ; I' ; ll tell you I said, " ; In the place of getting anything done (Inaudible) things done too fast and wanted to do what they wanted to do and they can' ; t get it done like that. HUNTLEY: So you didn' ; t agree with that statement then? YOUNG: I didn' ; t agree with that statement. I loved to get out of there with them. But when they say " ; Ain' ; t going to let nobody turn me around," ; I was right there. Don' ; t let (Inaudible) Bull Conner turn us around. HUNTLEY: Well, that was a song, right? How did it go? YOUNG: " ; Ain' ; t gonna let Bull Conner turn me ' ; round, turn me ' ; round, turn me ' ; round. Ain' ; t gonna let Bull Conner turn me ' ; round, I' ; m gonna keep on a walking, keep on a talking, walking up the kingdom land." ; I was right there. HUNTLEY: Were the children there with you? Were any of your grandchildren there, as well? YOUNG: All my grandchildren were there. Your wife and all the rest of them. HUNTLEY: Did any of them go to jail? YOUNG: Yeah, all of them went to jail. They filled up the jail so fast, they had to put them in the schoolhouse yard. One of my grandchildren (Inaudible), she went to hollering out and calling back to her mother that she wanted to get out that place because they got her out there in the rain. And they didn' ; t have nowhere to put them. They put them out there in that schoolhouse yard and fence up high, they couldn' ; t get over the fence. They fixed a high fence up so they couldn' ; t get over the fence. HUNTLEY: That was at Fair Park, right? YOUNG: Yes. HUNTLEY: And your grandson was also in jail at the same time? YOUNG: My grandson was already in jail. They carried him off. They put him in the paddy wagon and gone. Also, Martin Luther King. HUNTLEY: But your son was also in jail? YOUNG: Yes. HUNTLEY: How long did he stay in? YOUNG: He stayed in jail about a month, a week or two, something like that. HUNTLEY: Didn' ; t he refuse to come out at one point? YOUNG: One point, Martin Luther King refused to come out, because they was trying to not give him any water, not feed him and all that stuff. HUNTLEY: There was a situation once where some White ministers that were in the meeting, would you tell me about that? YOUNG: The Rabbis come from Baltimore or somewhere they said, up the country, somewhere. This place had just got burned up, bombed. HUNTLEY: 16th Street? YOUNG: No. HUNTLEY: Not a church? YOUNG: No. The place. The community, the City, got bombed not too long ago. HUNTLEY: Oklahoma City. YOUNG: That' ; s it. Some of the Rabbis were from up there at Oklahoma City. And they came down to help us because we were in trouble. They said they intended to come down and help us and they wanted to hear how it go. And they wanted to sit there and see how they was treating us. And Bull Conner told them to go in there and get them damn niggers out of there. HUNTLEY: Get the Rabbis? YOUNG: Yes. He took all our Rabbis out the church, coming in there with their gattling guns on and their guns hanging on their shoulders and here they come " ; Get up, and let' ; s go." ; And they followed. They went on with the meeting. Then the man told him, he said, " ; All right. Bull Conner done come in here and got our people that come to help us and visited us, and have disturb our meeting. We going, all the whole church going down to city hall. That' ; s where we are going to preach at today. We are going to have a meeting down there." ; With our company that had come with us. HUNTLEY: Now, these people that they took out were White, right? YOUNG: Yes. All of them were White. HUNTLEY: So then the entire church... YOUNG: Bull Conner got him a crowd and he got up in his paddy wagon and say, " ; Hey y' ; all people, go back home." ; He wouldn' ; t call us niggers then. He said, " ; All y' ; all people go on back home, back to your church." ; And we say, " ; You didn' ; t let us have no peace in our church, so we' ; re going down to city hall and do just what we' ; re doing at the church." ; HUNTLEY: So, did you go along with them? YOUNG: I was right along there with them and Bull Conner was putting the water on us as we go, wetting us up. And we went on down, anyway. (Inaudible) We was going anyway, we was stepping over the water. Everybody was going on (Inaudible) praying and singing. Singing that song about " ; Ain' ; t gonna let nobody turn me around." ; So we went on and (Inaudible) they were singing (Inaudible) " ; Ain' ; t gonna let nobody turn me ' ; round." ; We say, we going on, Bull Conner ain' ; t gonna turn us around. So they hosed us out there putting the water on us, (Inaudible). So the pipes stopped running. All the water run out from somewhere. So, he say, " ; What' ; s the matter with y' ; all. Why don' ; t you put that water on them. I said put the water on them." ; One man told him, say, " ; I' ; ll tell you where I' ; m going, I' ; m going back home and eat breakfast with my wife. HUNTLEY: This was a fireman? YOUNG: Yes. (Inaudible) talking about God done stopped the water. He said he was scared to mess with that water and he said, " ; Well, won' ; t no water come out," ; to Bull Conner. HUNTLEY: So the water just stopped? YOUNG: So we just stepped over the line and went on and kept going. Ain' ; t gonna let nobody turn us around and we didn' ; t let nobody turn us around until we got to City Hall. And we preached, prayed, shouted, sang, everything we was going to do at the church, we did it down there. HUNTLEY: Do you remember when the 16th Street Church was bombed and those little girls were killed? YOUNG: Yes, but I wasn' ; t there at the time. I just heard it. I knew about them, but I wasn' ; t there. They were at Sunday School and I didn' ; t go to Sunday School. HUNTLEY: Did you go to another church? YOUNG: Yes. I went to Galilee Baptist Church. So, I wasn' ; t there, but I went to the funeral. HUNTLEY: Oh, you were at the funeral? YOUNG: Yes. At 6th Avenue Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: What was that like? What do you remember about that day? YOUNG: The funeral? HUNTLEY: Yes. YOUNG: Oh, we had a gang of Rabbi' ; s there. We had the whole back church with Rabbis in it that day. (Inaudible) they just rolled in one by one, one by one and one by one. (Inaudible) That' ; s what I wanted to see. HUNTLEY: So the church was packed? YOUNG: Packed. Packed to capacity and I was right there looking down on them when they rolled them in right by me. HUNTLEY: You also participated in the Selma to Montgomery March? YOUNG: Yes. We went down there. We got us some buses to go because it was too far to walk. We wouldn' ; t try to walk like they did down in Camden, where they got beat up. HUNTLEY: Viola Liuzzo? YOUNG: Yes. She got killed down there trying to help them. But we got buses and went down to the schoolhouse yard. When we got to the schoolhouse yard in the buses, we put the buses up there because we had nowhere to park them. We got off the bus and walked from there on up to George Wallace and his capital. He was standing there when we got there. He said, " ; You can' ; t come in here." ; So we couldn' ; t come in there but we sit right down out there and spread us some quilts down there and took the place. Every store was closed with people looking out the windows wondering what we were doing. And, while we were walking I got so tired I wanted to give up. One of the Rabbi' ; s was walking right by me and said, " ; Lady, you can' ; t give up now, because we down here to help y' ; all. You better go on down there." ; He said, " ; Give me your coat." ; He took my coat and said, " ; I' ; ll carry it for you. Now you can hold up and walk, can' ; t you? So we walked until we got to the capital and, then, we sat down. HUNTLEY: You also participated at the funeral of Dr. King in Atlanta? YOUNG: I had a heart attack down there. HUNTLEY: At the funeral? YOUNG: Trying to get to the funeral. I was in the church yard, but the crowd was so big until I couldn' ; t get no further than the yard. And, I stood right there and got so tired that I wanted to fall dead, just standing out there. So I felt myself getting sick and I went over there and I see a crowd sitting on the steps over there, at somebody' ; s house and I went over there and sat down on that step and blacked out right there. They had nurses watching you. When I told them who I had come with, they ran around calling for Bernice Young and Dave Young. They came and saw about me and gave me a cold drink of water. I got up from there and went down to Morehouse yard, then. HUNTLEY: So you didn' ; t go to the hospital? YOUNG: No. I didn' ; t go to a hospital. That nurse had doctored on me out there. The water and that drink got me back to normal. So after that, we got some, they let us have the streetcar then to ride. (Inaudible) buses and things were going down from the church to Morehouse. We got there in those buses and went on down to that Morehouse and got out and got on the yard. We didn' ; t get no further than the yard there, but we could hear everything they were saying because they had those loud speakers and we could hear everything they were saying. HUNTLEY: What was Birmingham like before the Movement? YOUNG: Oh, my goodness. Before the Movement, I was having a time then. Having an over here and over there time. HUNTLEY: What do you remember most about how you related to Whites and how Whites related to you? In riding the buses did you ever go downtown to shop?YOUNG: Oh, yes. I used to go downtown all the time. You know they had a streetcar that was a double length. One end up here belongs to the White people and that end back there belongs to the Negroes. And, so, we had to get back there. If we' ; re sitting in this part when the White folks on, we had to get off and stand up. If there wasn' ; t any room in the back, you just stood up until you find yourself a seat. But, if a White person come in, then, and wanted to sit there, you had to get up, because the man, who' ; s driving the car, would get out of his seat and come back there and ask you " ; Would please let so and so have this seat?" ; We had White folks seat. So we had to get up then and let them have the seat. But I got so when I wouldn' ; t get up. HUNTLEY: You refused to get up? YOUNG: I refused to get up. HUNTLEY: Then what would happen? YOUNG: Didn' ; t nothing happened. But that bus rode and that man stayed on that bus. The driver wouldn' ; t try to make you do anything, but the man who used to drive the bus would come and ask you up. Well, you would pay the rider no attention if they are riding just like you, but if he come back there and tell you, " ; I' ; ll take the board," ; and it' ; s sitting here and you move it back, then they want you to move back. So if he didn' ; t come back, we could ride on. (Inaudible) But he come back there and move his seat back. You had to get back. HUNTLEY: You wouldn' ; t refuse when the driver came back? YOUNG: Yes. We wouldn' ; t refuse. We' ; d get on up and get in that back and stand up until we get--Martin Luther King say " ; You' ; re a fool. Don' ; t you know you paid your money just like they paid theirs." ; He said, " ; Don' ; t get up. Sit right there and let them know that you paid the same thing they paid." ; HUNTLEY: That is what they are talking about during the meetings? YOUNG: Yes. That' ; s what we were fighting about and praying about. HUNTLEY: So, do you think that the Movement was successful? YOUNG: The Movement was real successful, because of all the things they didn' ; t allow. Bull Conner didn' ; t allow them to drink water where Negroes drink water at. Shuttlesworth and Martin Luther King move it and told them, " ; Ain' ; t no such thing as White water and Black water." ; He said, " ; Just drink water." ; " ; Whenever you get some water, just drink you some water and don' ; t pay that no attention." ; Well, we were paying that money in the Movement to pay for that being done. HUNTLEY: To get it changed? YOUNG: Yes. Those words had come through the big men on the Supreme Court. HUNTLEY: How did you feel though before that Movement started and you would have to go down and you would have drink out of the " ; Colored" ; fountains, or you couldn' ; t sit at the lunch counters to eat? YOUNG: We thought nothing of it. I didn' ; t think nothing of it. You know I didn' ; t know no better. HUNTLEY: You just thought that was just the way it was? YOUNG: Yes. This is the way of doing and that' ; s their way of doing it and to keep from getting into an argument or something, you go on and do like the rules say do. But, after we paid a lot of money to the Supreme Court, they say you don' ; t have to do like that. When they told me you don' ; t have to do like that, well, if you had to pay so much for them to make it legal, and they did. HUNTLEY: So the Supreme Court, obviously what you' ; re doing, you' ; re talking about the Supreme Court and Brown v. Board of Education who changes the school system, for instance. Who talks about separate but equal was illegal? YOUNG: Yes. (Inaudible) Colored children (Inaudible) to school. Bull Conner and George Wallace didn' ; t like that at all. No Black and White going to school together. George Wallace said it wasn' ; t going to happen. No Blacks was going to no school with White folks. HUNTLEY: " ; Segregation now, Segregation forever." ; YOUNG: " ; Segregation now, segregation forever." ; And he stood in the school house door and said, " ; You ain' ; t coming by here." ; (Inaudible) when they tried to go to Tuscaloosa. HUNTLEY: The University of Alabama? YOUNG: Yes. George Wallace got in that door, but a man probably about this much taller than him said, " ; Would you step aside?" ; " ; Oh, yeah, I' ; ll do this." ; And he stepped aside. I remember him saying, " ; Any nigger come in here he going to go over my dead body." ; But when that man come by there he didn' ; t say anything. I looked up and got something and stepped aside. HUNTLEY: His name was Katzenbach and he represented the Federal Government. YOUNG: Yes, that' ; s his name. He was so big and tall, he say he was looking ugly and things. He say, " ; Would you please step aside?" ; He say, " ; Yes, sir." ; HUNTLEY: So do you think that Wallace was just a show? YOUNG: Just a show. Trying to bluff somebody and make somebody do like they was doing. But, he didn' ; t fool around with that man. He didn' ; t mess with that man. That man just told him to step aside. And that man went on to school and right through that door where he was going. HUNTLEY: You have obviously had a wide a varied experience in the civil rights movement. At that time you were in your 60s, during the ' ; 63 demonstrations. Now, you' ; re in your 90s, how does it feel to have lived through all of that and to see the changes that have taken place in Birmingham? YOUNG: Oh, I feel good. And being the age that I am I just wonder how did I come through? How did I get through. All that stuff I had to come through. What these people are going through now, I' ; ve been through it. I' ; ve come through what they' ; re going through. I thank God I' ; m here. All I can say now is thank you, Jesus, thank you, Jesus. We used to have a woman at the Movement who used to say, " ; Thank God for Jesus." ; And, they had to come and get her and it took six men to take her out. She shout so much, until I spoke one day. I seen her outside I hadn' ; t got to the church. She was on her way in and I was on my way in and I said, " ; Oh, God, there go that old shouting lady." ; What did I say that for. She said, " ; You better wish you were a shouting lady." ; I said, " ; Oh, I wasn' ; t talking about you." ; HUNTLEY: Was she older than you? YOUNG: No. She wasn' ; t older than me, she was younger than me. But she was old, just not as old as me. But she is something about the age of my daughter-in-law. HUNTLEY: Were you older than most of the people that were there? YOUNG: There were so many people that was that, but I was in the older ones. HUNTLEY: Were there other people in your community that were involved in the Movement? YOUNG: Everyone just about you could find, unless he was a drinker or he loved to run around and drink and didn' ; t care nothing about nothing just drinking and having a time. They didn' ; t pay the movement any attention. HUNTLEY: So your church was involved? YOUNG: The church was involved. All the deacons and members of the church was involved and they could have the meeting at their church at any time. HUNTLEY: If I were to ask you about different individuals, you remember Rev. John Porter, what do you remember about him? YOUNG: Rev. Porter was real nice and he really loved the Movement. But his church didn' ; t want him involved. Shuttlesworth had gotten his church bombed up and will come over there and get their church bombed up. He didn' ; t want them there, to stay away from our church. And Rev. Porter say, " ; Yeah, they coming all right." ; HUNTLEY: So he would allow the Movement to come to 6th Avenue? YOUNG: Yes. (Inaudible) the girls wouldn' ; t got killed if they had their funeral there. But that stopped all of that talking about they weren' ; t coming there, because Rev. Porter was all for it and was all with them at every meeting. He said, " ; My people don' ; t even want me over here, but I' ; m over here." ; HUNTLEY: What about the Woods Brothers? YOUNG: The Woods Brothers were active in it, the daddy and the two brothers. Calvin Woods, Abraham Woods and I don' ; t know the daddy' ; s name, but all of them were preachers. HUNTLEY: Who was the person that did a lot of the songs, do you remember Carleton Reese? YOUNG: Yes. Carleton Reese was the piano man. He played the music for us and he would do all the singing and he would just sing whatever he want to sing. He could just make him up a song and sing it. Something about (Inaudible) Bull Conner and they would go right along with him. HUNTLEY: In closing, did you enjoy the Movement or were you afraid? YOUNG: I enjoyed it so much until I wouldn' ; t be afraid. I would be afraid if those White folks come in with all those machines and lights and things in your face and taking pictures and all that kind of stuff. I didn' ; t have sense enough to be scared of that, I was so enthused over Martin Luther King and what they were doing, until I didn' ; t pay them any attention. But they were back there catching every word they said and everything. Martin wouldn' ; t pay them any attention. He tell them, " ; I want my freedom and I want it now." ; HUNTLEY: And that became sort of a slogan for the Movement? YOUNG: Yes. And, when we were getting on the end (Inaudible) Martin Luther King so much and kept up with him, try to keep up with him, try to get a chance to kill him a long time ago. And he said something or other about over the mountain where, " ; I might not get there with you, but I want y' ; all to keep on going. Just keep on going." ; He said, " ; Walk, if they won' ; t let you walk, crawl." ; He said, " ; If you don' ; t crawl, slide on in there, just so you keep going." ; HUNTLEY: How did you feel when Martin Luther King was killed? YOUNG: Well, I was standing there at the ironing board and my husband said, " ; That must have been your man, you carrying on so." ; I said, " ; Nothing about no man, I just love him so because he was teaching us so much." ; I said, " ; Oh, God, that couldn' ; t be Martin Luther King. That' ; s the main man. They killed the poor man." ; I had a fit. I couldn' ; t iron any more. I threw those clothes away. I was just sick. I said, " ; Well, Jesus, what are we going to do now?" ; But I knew Shuttlesworth and Rev. Garner and all those guys were back there, we were going to keep on going, just like he said. So we did. HUNTLEY: Well, I want to thank you for taking your time out and coming and sitting with us. Your experience has been one that has really been amazing. I appreciate it. We want to again say, " ; Welcome back home to Birmingham." ; Come back again. Thank you for coming. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ESYoung1995.xml ESYoung1995.xml
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Emma Smith Young
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Emma Smith Young discusses participating in the Selma to Montgomery March after being very involved in the Movement in Birmingham. She was arrested during a Birmingham demonstration and attended Dr. King's funeral in D.C.
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19950920C
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.)
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
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1995-09-20
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video
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989783369fa5ad789623dbdbcc36905b
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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Joe Hendricks
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JHendricks1995.xml
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Freedom Rides, 1961
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5.4 June 23, 1995 Joe Hendricks 19950623H 0:51:36 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Birmingham-Shuttlesworth International Airport (Ala.) Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Freedom Rides, 1961 Joe Hendricks Horace Huntley Video 1:|6(8)|29(3)|41(10)|51(9)|74(6)|81(2)|93(1)|105(8)|125(12)|146(6)|157(9)|173(11)|186(9)|199(8)|213(6)|226(1)|243(11)|258(8)|270(4)|282(4)|297(9)|320(1)|336(1)|351(12)|366(11)|382(6)|397(17)|405(1)|412(6)|423(10)|432(4)|451(3)|473(13)|488(15)|504(5)|520(2)|532(16)|550(15)|560(7)|569(2)|579(2)|589(7)|601(12)|612(3)|626(8)|636(12)|648(10)|654(15)|671(8)|679(13)|693(10) 0 https://youtu.be/JquNgFPZSY8 YouTube video English 43 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Mr. Joe Hendricks for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Joe Hendricks is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 59 Family Background Tell me a little bit about your parents. Where were your parents from? Hendricks recalls how his parents were sharecroppers and how everyone helped out on the farm. African American agricultural laborers ; Sharecroppers Boligee (Ala.) ; Children of sharecroppers 291 Educational Background Tell me a little about your education. Hendricks tells how he attended school through the ninth grade and then moved to Birmingham to find a job. Junior high school students ; Rural schools--United States Birmingham (Ala.) 465 Moving to Birmingham Then, after 9th grade, you left and came to Birmingham? Hendricks recalls how he moved to Birmingham and worked for Jim Dandy Company and other blue collar companies. Hayes Aircraft Corporation ; Jim Dandy Company ; Lumber Jack Meat Birmingham (Ala.) 537 Involvement with the NAACP In 1946. At that time, the NAACP was probably the Movement in Birmingham. Did you get involved with the NAACP? Hendricks recalls how he was involved with Reverend Shuttlesworth before the Movement and then became involved with the NAACP. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil Rights District 590 Becoming a Registered Voter Did you become a registered voter? Hendricks recalls how he had to answer questions designed to trip him up so he could not become a registered voter. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Jim Crow laws ; Voter registration 711 Involvement in the Alabama Christian Movement In 1956, the NAACP was outlawed from operating in the state of Alabama. In that same week, the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized. Hendricks was highly active in the Movement and that looked forward to the mass meetings on Monday nights. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Sardis Baptist Church Birmingham (Ala.) 804 Attending the Mass Meetings How would you describe the typical mass meeting? Hendricks discusses how the mass meetings were lively and energetic but there was a police presence. Mass meetings ; Revival hymns Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 950 Personal Incident with the Police Were there any incidences, for example, on the way to the mass meetings or after the mass meeting, when you are headed home, that you may have been stopped by the police? Hendricks discusses how he was stopped and surrounded by fifteen police cars but they did not hurt him because they were worried about repercussions. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 1140 Being On Guard at Shuttlesworth's House So you then were one of the guards for Shuttlesworth home and church and I assume other places as well. Can you tell me how that operation was set up? Hendricks discusses an incident with a white man while he was on guard duty at Reverend Shuttlesworth's house. Bethel Baptist Church (Saint Clair County, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 1336 Arrested for Sitting on a Bus I know that you were arrested once because you sat on a bus? Hendricks recalls how he would not move to the back of the bus and was arrested because of it. African Americans--Segregation ; Buses ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.) 1589 Participation in the Sit-in at the Airport Did you take part in the sit-in out at the airport? Hendricks discusses how he and his friends were forced to pay extra for lunch and how their attorney won a lawsuit against the airport for discrimination. Arrest (Police methods) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham-Shuttlesworth International Airport (Ala.) ; Discrimination ; Racism 1839 Rescuing the Freedom Riders In 1961, we had a group of people called Freedom Riders who started their trip in Washington, D.C. and was headed to New Orleans. Hendricks discusses how he and other members of the Movement rescued the Freedom Riders from the police and the white mob to drive them back to Birmingham. Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Anniston (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) 2094 Helping White Freedom Riders Stranded in Anniston Birmingham is about 60 miles from Anniston, how did you know the people were in Anniston and stranded? Hendricks recalls how no one wanted to bring the white ladies back in their car because of fear of harassment from other white people, so he drove them back. Freedom Rides, 1961 Anniston (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) 2247 Lack of Police Interference Upon Return to Birmingham Were you approached at all by the police when you got into Birmingham? Hendricks states that he did not have any difficulty with the police and thanks God for protecting him and allowing him to participate in the Movement. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Harassment Birmingham (Ala.) ; God 2433 Participation in the 1963 Demonstrations Did you participate in the demonstrations during the '63 marches, between April and May of 1963? Hendricks recalls strategizing for the demonstrations and remembers seeing everyone sprayed with the hoses and assaulted by the police. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States 2661 Circumstances of Losing His Job Did you ever lose your job? Hendricks recalls how he lost his job because he was arrested for sitting on the bus and participating in the Movement. Jim Dandy Company ; Racism Birmingham (Ala.) ; Discrimination 2916 Intimidation and Lessons from the Movement Is there anything else that you would like to add that we may not have covered that relates to the Movement? Hendricks states that the movement taught Black people to stop being complacent with their circumstances and to not be intimated or harassed. Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) 3056 Conclusion of Interview Mr. Hendricks, I want to thank you for coming and taking your time out of your busy schedule to talk with us today. Interview is concluded. Oral History Joe Hendricks discusses being active in the Movement with Rev. Shuttlesworth, the NAACP and the ACMHR. He was arrested during a bus sit-in and helped integrate the Birmingham Airport. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mr. Joe Hendricks for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 23, 1995. Mr. Hendricks, thank you for taking the time out to come and sit and talk with us today. What I would like to do initially is start with some general kinds of questions about your background. Tell me a little bit about your parents. Where were your parents from? HENDRICKS: My parents were raised in Green County a place called Boligee. HUNTLEY: Boligee, Alabama near Menchway, Alabama? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were you also born in Boligee? HENDRICKS: Right. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have? HENDRICKS: I had eight brothers and four sisters. HUNTLEY: Where did you fit in there? HENDRICKS: I' ; m close somewhere in the 7th child or 8th, somewhere in that area. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little bit about your parents education. How much education did they have? HENDRICKS: Well, it wasn' ; t very much education going with my parents because my parents' ; daddy and mother were under slave masters. And out of that they had to get whatever was pretty well left and they was under the Hoover days. Back in that day, when there wasn' ; t anything very much to do, especially on a farm. And they didn' ; t have anything to get an education with. As a matter of fact, even after I got up, it was left to a community to educate a child, not a family. HUNTLEY: How do you mean, " ; it' ; s left up to the community?" ; HENDRICKS: When they met like we meet on Sunday now, they would raise money to send that girl off to college so she could continue her education along with the community. It wasn' ; t enough money for most families to send a kid to school. The first started by the churches and the community getting involved with a kid when you found a good student. So, out of that it wasn' ; t any chance for very much education. Because under the slave master it wasn' ; t allowed. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. In fact it was against the law to teach Black people to read and write. What about their occupations? What kind of work did they do? HENDRICKS: Farming is the only thing that they had. And maybe go out to cut timber in the winter to do something like that. And that' ; s about all they had to do. HUNTLEY: Was your father a farmer? HENDRICKS: My father was a farmer. HUNTLEY: And your mother worked at home, I assume. Did she work outside the home? HENDRICKS: No. At that point there was no such thing as nobody worked at home. Everybody farmed in our house. My mother went to the field, daddy went to the field and the children went to field. They put me in the field when I was five years old and I been there ever since. HUNTLEY: Did your family own the farm? HENDRICKS: No. HUNTLEY: Were you sharecropping? HENDRICKS: They rented it. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your education. HENDRICKS: I went to Jane Wood Jr. High and I went to the 9th grade. After that I came to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Did you attend school here in Birmingham? HENDRICKS: No. I came here and started to work. HUNTLEY: Tell me what do you remember about your school? HENDRICKS: Going to school there, they had teachers were very smart. At that time anybody who finished high school seemed to have been teachers because it was in the area where very few people went to college and more or less our teachers were 12th grades to a B.S. degree. And that' ; s what more or less that they had to offer. HUNTLEY: How regular did you attend school? Were you in school every day for nine months out of the year or how did that process work? HENDRICKS: Well, my schooling was very scarcely done because I went to school like three months out of a year. Most other times until I got 14 years I was out of school. I only went about three months because everything was real bad and we didn' ; t have the sufficient clothes and things to attend as we should have. So those kind of things made it kind of rough. But after 14, then I started going pretty regular after that. HUNTLEY: Then, after 9th grade, you left and came to Birmingham? HENDRICKS: Right. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances? Why did you come to Birmingham? HENDRICKS: There wasn' ; t any money there, too much. And, I felt that I could here because I had some brothers here, they had left and had done pretty well and I decided I would come here too. HUNTLEY: So where was your first job in Birmingham? HENDRICKS: I came here and went to Jim Dandy and stayed there for 38 years. HUNTLEY: You started at Jim Dandy and was there for 38 years and never had another job? HENDRICKS: Yes. And worked there until they closed. I left there and I went to Lumber Jack Meat where they kill and prepare meat for market. And I left there and went to Hayes Aircraft and that was about it until I started working some for myself. HUNTLEY: In coming to Birmingham, you came in the mid-40' ; s? HENDRICKS: ' ; 46. HUNTLEY: In 1946. At that time the NAACP was probably the Movement in Birmingham. Did you get involved with the NAACP? HENDRICKS: Yes, I was involved with Mr. before the Movement and when the Movement started I thought that was the biggest thing that really helped our people, so that' ; s what I did. I got with them and tried to do whatever I could. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in in the 40s and 50s and early 60s? HENDRICKS: 14th Street between 3rd and 4th Avenues across from Edward Chevrolet. HUNTLEY: All right. That' ; s really in the Civil Rights district now, right? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you become a registered voter? HENDRICKS: Yes, as soon as we could. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances? HENDRICKS: We had a lot of hassle with it. Registration started like -- they gave us a real hard time. We had an application to fill like the Bessemer Short Route, all of the senators that we had in Washington. All of the officers in Montgomery, our Birmingham district, all those kinds of questions we were to answer before we could vote. Then, after we got into that then some people could pretty well handle it pretty good and they felt that we shouldn' ; t be making any progress so they put the damper on it. And, they started asking questions that they could not answer. HUNTLEY: For instance? What kind of questions? HENDRICKS: They would ask you, " ; How high is height?" ; " ; How far is distant?" ; " ; How many bubbles in a bar of soap?" ; Those kind of questions. And, that put the damper on to start with. After that, then, after we got some clearing on to go ahead to move that, then we moved into the area of getting some voters qualified. HUNTLEY: Do you remember the day that you qualified to become a voter? HENDRICKS: No. Really, as years passed you don' ; t keep up with this day after day. HUNTLEY: But you do remember some of the questions that were asked you in qualifying you to vote? HENDRICKS: Yes. Those were the questions, some of the things we ran into in the process of registering to vote. HUNTLEY: In 1956 the NAACP was outlawed from operating in the State of Alabama. In that same week, the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized. Were you involved in the initial organization of the Movement? HENDRICKS: I didn' ; t hold office, but I did go to the meeting. I was active from the day that it started because everything went well, I thought. And, I thought that was the biggest thing, the best thing that had ever happened on my part. So I gladly started taking part and stayed with it as long as it was seemingly doing something worthwhile. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the first days of the Movement? HENDRICKS: Well, I think the first days of the Movement, they said they were going to meet somewhere and they finally ended up meeting at, I believe at Sardis. And, they organized there. And from that day, they went forward. I believe that was something like ' ; 56. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. HENDRICKS: And, from that day they started meeting. Later on they started every Monday night, you would have mass meeting. Everybody was looking forward to Monday night. HUNTLEY: How would you describe the typical mass meeting? HENDRICKS: Well, the mass meeting was set upon mostly what we know. It was based on prayer. Someone would speak. The pastor got a musical department and we had a choir, mass choir and those kind of things. That' ; s what it was based on, and they would take up collection and this is the forum that we used to fight the cases in court. HUNTLEY: Some people have described the meetings to be like revival sessions. There would be preaching, there would be people that testified in relation to what they had experience. Rev. Shuttlesworth and others would speak as well. HENDRICKS: Well, they would have a speaker every night. It was based on the same operation as a church service. That' ; s what it was, and we would have a minister and the choir and devotion with prayer and those kind of things. HUNTLEY: Were police present at the meetings? HENDRICKS: Yes. More policemen were outside at some point. But they weren' ; t really -- we didn' ; t feel that they were there for the right purpose, so we had our own guards along with the policemen on the outside. Someone always stayed outside with the police where the mass meeting was held. HUNTLEY: Did you look at the policemen being there to protect you? HENDRICKS: We didn' ; t feel like that was the purpose of them being there and we would tell them sometimes. " ; We appreciate you' ; re being here, but we don' ; t feel comfortable with you." ; HUNTLEY: Were there any incidences, for example, on the way to the mass meetings or after the mass meeting, when you are headed home, that you may have been stopped by the police? HENDRICKS: Well, I was going to guard duty out to Rev. Shuttlesworth house when I was stopped by the policemen. And, they asked me for my driver' ; s license and I pulled out the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights card and give them that. So there were about 15 cars of policemen in a dark place, you couldn' ; t see anything. And, they said to me, " ; Give me your driver' ; s license." ; And it was courtesy at all and they were using the word nigger and this kind of thing. I was kind of shook up. HUNTLEY: Why did you give them your Movement card? HENDRICKS: Well, I couldn' ; t see anything. HUNTLEY: So it was a mistake? HENDRICKS: Yes. I went to my billfold, the Movement card was hard like the driver' ; s license with the little plastic. The driver' ; s license had plastic, hard and I just felt something hard, because there wasn' ; t any light. And when he shined the light on it, he said, " ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights" ; rather than a drivers license. I thought it was a driver' ; s license when it wasn' ; t. HUNTLEY: Were you afraid at that point? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: You said there were 15 police cars? HENDRICKS: The way they surrounded me I knew it wasn' ; t a good sign. They just pulled around me and stopped real quick. I knew it wasn' ; t a good sign. And, where they stopped me at, it was real dark, no light at all. So, they seemed to meet and they said to one another out there, saying, " ; What we going to do with this nigger?" ; And, the other one said, eventually I heard him say, " ; If, we kill him, then what are these other niggers going to think that belong to this Movement?" ; So at that point, I said then, this is just it. And when they finally made their suggestion, one of them asked the question, " ; If we kill him, then if it beats back to us, then what these others going to think." ; So they finally said, " ; Well, we better let him go because if it leads back to us then we are going to have to answer to the call." ; So, they let me go. HUNTLEY: So actually, the card probably saved you that night? HENDRICKS: Yes. I think the card worked in my favor. But sometime God has a way that you don' ; t have to get things done. That' ; s my feeling. That' ; s what I really ended up saying afterwards. HUNTLEY: So you then were one of the guards for Shuttlesworth home and church and I assume other places as well. Can you tell me how that operation was set up? HENDRICKS: The next door neighbor to Rev. Shuttlesworth house had a screened in porch where you could see off the porch, all the way around, and we would sit straight across from the church and we could see on the side and all way on both sides of the church and the front and we had a fence on the back. So, that' ; s where we would sit in. And, we could stay there if it was raining or whatever and be able to see. We were close enough to the church to see anything that goes on. HUNTLEY: Were you armed? HENDRICKS: We had a few shotguns hid out. HUNTLEY: Did you ever have the occasion to have to use any of the guns? HENDRICKS: No. We didn' ; t. We had an occasion where maybe someone might have thought that we had bombs brought there, and the man say he wanted to get into the church so the preacher could pray for him. He had a whole five gallon of dynamite under a rain coat. HUNTLEY: Was this a White man? HENDRICKS: A White male. And when we pursued to find him, find out what he had or check him out, he would never let us get close to him so he finally tried to take out and it ran and it blew about four to six feet in the street out there when he dropped it. HUNTLEY: You were on guard the night that this happened? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you approached him and he wouldn' ; t allow you to get very close to him? HENDRICKS: And then he ran. I believe a fellow named John L. Lewis did the closing in on him, more so. HUNTLEY: I see. HENDRICKS: We called him that, I don' ; t know what his name was. But, all of us called him John L. Lewis, but, he was out there, too. And, so he closed in on him real close and somehow he dropped this dynamite. And it blew the windows out the church and a big hole in the street. HUNTLEY: Were there any other encounters that you had while you were on guard duty, that you remember? HENDRICKS: Well, we had several cases where they would come out there with threats, you know. But you couldn' ; t pursue anything. Our job was to try to stay away from trouble, not make it. HUNTLEY: I know that you were arrested once because you sat on a bus? HENDRICKS: Yes, the first case. HUNTLEY: Can you describe that experience to me? HENDRICKS: I came through town and they were on every corner. HUNTLEY: Who are " ; they?" ; HENDRICKS: White brothers. White people had congregated on the corner. They had chains and billy clubs and sticks and they said to one another, " ; What time Shuttlesworth going to get here." ; That' ; s what they called him. And, I go to the next corner and they was asking for him. So I then turned and went on out to Rev. Shuttlesworth house. And I said to him, " ; This is the wrong day for you." ; I said, " ; You better give me that pass and let me go to town." ; He said, " ; Well, what about your job?" ; I said, " ; Well, the job won' ; t mean as much as your life or whatever those planned. This just ain' ; t the right day for you." ; So, I pursued to go and follow through with whatever he had planned. And what I felt was best to, that I should do rather than, you know, let him walk into that kind of situation. HUNTLEY: And what had he planned for that day that you eventually did? HENDRICKS: What had I planned? HUNTLEY: What had he planned? You went on to do what he had planned for that particular day? HENDRICKS: No. I was planning to go with him anyway. And, after it was seeming they were going to make a problem for him, then I was willing to do whatever was necessary to do on my part. HUNTLEY: Did anyone else go with you? HENDRICKS: Yes, we had like 15 to 20 people. I don' ; t know exact. At least 12. HUNTLEY: How did it actually happen? What did you do to be arrested? HENDRICKS: Well, we went and sat on the bus and the bus driver say, " ; Move to the back." ; And we said, " ; We were comfortable where we are. I don' ; t see any reason why we should go to the back. We paid our fare and we feel that we are comfortable where we are sitting." ; And we stayed where we were sitting. So, instead of them, I caught a bus going to Ensley, instead of them taking me to Ensley, they took me to the bus terminal and pulled us up in between some more buses there and called the policemen before we left town. They called the dispatcher and they were the ones that ordered them to not go on the route. To take us down to the bus terminal. And, from there, they called the paddy wagon to take us to jail. HUNTLEY: So they arrested all 14 or how ever many there were? HENDRICKS: All those people that were on the bus, that were on the other side of the Black/White board. HUNTLEY: So, how many days did you spend in jail? HENDRICKS: Five days and six nights. But the worst part of it was, they sent up and, then, the judge turned around and said, send them back a day, the last night, sent us back to jail for the respect he had for the other judge and, then, bring us back to court the next day, which I never did understand. HUNTLEY: What do you mean " ; the other judge?" ; What happened to the other judge.HENDRICKS: The one who sent us had sent us back to jail overnight. And, then, we had to come back to court the next morning before another judge and he released us after that, for some reason, I don' ; t know. HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested at any other time? HENDRICKS: I don' ; t think I was arrested any other time. HUNTLEY: Did you take part in the sit-in out at the airport? HENDRICKS: Well, they didn' ; t arrest us at the airport. At the airport it was a matter of trying to be served as any other citizen in the airport restaurant. And, they refused to serve us for a whole week. So, that day, we set up three groups. The first group would go on when they opened. The second group would come on at 10:00. And, I happened to be on the 10:00 to 12:00. Mamie Brown, Jim Hendricks and Joe Hendricks and I believe Hattie Felder, I think that' ; s right. But, I know Mamie, Joe and three other people. But, instead of them serving us. I think it was a ham sandwich and a drink is what we ordered. It was $1.85. But, the manager came out and instructed them to charge us $5.85 for $1.85 sandwich. So, some of them didn' ; t want to pay it. So, I offered whoever didn' ; t want to pay it, I' ; d pay it if she give us a receipt. So she pursued that she would. And whoever didn' ; t want to pay it, I went on and paid it. And, that was public accommodation, she said. And, she didn' ; t feel like she should serve us and she felt that we were special guests, so she charged us $5.00 extra. So, we paid it and we took it on to court. And, Constance Marley represented that case and she did real well. She really represented us. And, wherever she is now, I can appreciate the way she done it, because she turned and give all of the lawyers that were there too, sit on the case. Every book that was in the library, she asked them to go get it, and then she would turn and give them the book she had. And, then, she went from page to page which protected the public accommodation and she turned to them and give them her book. And she went to them, she said, " ; Article VI, Paragraph VII, Page 26." ; And she give the statement through the whole thing without reading any of it. So she really knew what she was doing. HUNTLEY: She knew the law. But, she used that sandwich, that $1.80 sandwich that you paid $5.80 for, you used that as evidence in that case? HENDRICKS: Yes. So, this was I think the best case for the people because it read that no Black or White can be seated in a public building in the State of Alabama. And, that' ; s what they had on as law. Whether the person who ran the restaurant wanted to serve you. They would be in violation of the state law. So this came to the test and we won this. So, this was a big effort, I thought. HUNTLEY: In 1961, we had a group of people called Freedom Riders who started their trip in Washington, D.C. and was headed to New Orleans. And, when, they arrived in Alabama, some things took place. You played a role in that, can you explain that to me? What role did you play? HENDRICKS: After these people had been there for something like a week, or three or four days or something. HUNTLEY: Had been in ... HENDRICKS: In Anniston. HUNTLEY: Anniston, Alabama. HENDRICKS: Yes. And, I felt that they was trapped there. And I consulted the leader about it who was Rev. Shuttlesworth. And he said, if I felt that way or if we felt that way, we should go. He thought somebody should go check on them, that' ; s the way he put it. So we pursued to go there. And those people were vicious, seemed to be mad about something, I don' ; t know what. And they had formed the White people on the street out there to stand over us with guns and intimidate us. HUNTLEY: This is in Anniston? HENDRICKS: In Anniston. HUNTLEY: Just before you get to Anniston, though, how was the decision made that you were going to Anniston and how many people went with you? HENDRICKS: Well, we formed a car pool to go there to pick them up in cars. HUNTLEY: How many cars? HENDRICKS: We had like 15 or more cars. And we went there to pick them up. HUNTLEY: How many people were you going to pick up? HENDRICKS: Well, we carried like one person to a car, not more than two. Because we left space for the people were there, if we could get them to bring them back. So that' ; s the way we went. HUNTLEY: Was there any difficulty in getting them to come back with you? HENDRICKS: We had difficulty out of the sheriff' ; s department. The sheriff' ; s department at that point was on duty at the hospital. They had them in the basement at the hospital. HUNTLEY: So they were not at the bus station, they were at the hospital? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Was it because they had been beaten, had they been treated at the hospital? HENDRICKS: Right. They were downstairs in the basement at the hospital and we couldn' ; t get in there until these sheriffs let us in. And, they made us stop out on the lot before we got to the hospital. And, we had to communicate with them, so I asked the other people to stay back because the tension was so high. And the people were so brutally mad and they had all those guns. So I asked the other people to not go and let me go up and see if I could get them released. So, he finally said to me, " ; If you want to take the chance, I wouldn' ; t do anything to help you. I won' ; t protect you even if something would happen to you on this hospital yard. You are on your own." ; HUNTLEY: So in addition to the sheriff' ; s and police that were there, there were other Whites who were mingling in that area? HENDRICKS: Yes. There were other Whites on the street before we got on the lot. They had stopped us and stood over us with all kind of guns. I had a flat and they stood over me the whole time I was fixing my flat. And they ran me out of the service station. They wouldn' ; t let the people in the service station fix it. So, we pursued to go ahead and get my spare out the trunk and fix it that way. And, they just stood there with the guns as if they were out there hunting for us or something, like we were animals or something. HUNTLEY: Birmingham is about 60 miles from Anniston, how did you know the people were in Anniston and stranded? HENDRICKS: Well, it was on the news and by me being active in the Movement, we knew that they were there and he had the location of where they were. HUNTLEY: Now, were these Black people or White people that were stranded in Anniston? HENDRICKS: Black and White. We had even four White ladies in the group. And the men who were with me were actually afraid to let them ride back because it was so much animosity and so much bitterness there. And I just took the initiative to load them in my car, the White ladies, and into my best friend' ; s car, which was Forest Washington. And, we got them back to town. But no one wanted the White ladies in their car. HUNTLEY: Why not? HENDRICKS: Because of the guns and the way the people were acting and the way they was treating them. And, so, that was the reason. And by them being White ladies, in a Black man' ; s car, riding down the street, by these guns and all these people and you know how they feel about that, that was the reason. HUNTLEY: And you had 60 miles of rural route to get between Anniston and Birmingham? HENDRICKS: Right. So they came back to Birmingham. And when I got here I had the same problem. No one wanted to deal with the White ladies. When nobody would take them, I said, " ; Well, then all White ladies load back in my car and come and go home with me." ; They hadn' ; t had a bath. They hadn' ; t had anything of that sort. So I taken them home and my wife, I told her to go in there and make a way for them to take a bath and give them some clothes. She give all of them something to put on and change in. They put the clothes on, wore them back home and mailed them back. HUNTLEY: What part of Birmingham did you live in at the time? HENDRICKS: Over in Titusville. Honeysuckle Circle. HUNTLEY: All right. So you brought them to your house? HENDRICKS: Right. HUNTLEY: Were you approached at all by the police when you got into Birmingham? Did they know that you had gone to Anniston and you were coming back with the Freedom Riders with White women in your car? And, did they approach you, or did you have any difficulty once you got back to Birmingham? HENDRICKS: No. I didn' ; t have any difficulty after I got here. Somehow I have been blessed that difficulty would go up to a point and I feel that somehow God has always held it off for some reason. I have never been hurt violently. I have seen everything up to that. But I have never been really hurt. I been pushed. I been through a few things like that, but really, to be struck like I looked and seen them do other people, I' ; ve never been hit. I' ; ve seen them hit other people. HUNTLEY: So you have been rather fortunate in that regard? You' ; ve never been attacked? HENDRICKS: I feel that the prayer I' ; ve prayed and the prayer that I have said, have been answered to that point. I don' ; t feel that it' ; s nothing that I' ; ve done that has been so protective for me. But I feel that outside of me, that somebody was big enough to really get it done through him. And that' ; s my feeling. I don' ; t feel even today that I am credited for nothing that has been done, but only through what I' ; ve been allowed to do as a tool and instrument for Him. And, I' ; ve heard the impact of Dr. King with the same idea. Don' ; t give me the credit. And, if you ever get yourself into it, you' ; ll find that you don' ; t want the credit. I' ; m not here feeling that I ought to have any credit for what happened. I feel that the glory to God, glory to whatever it was bigger than me. Somewhere something happened bigger than me to make it be what it was because I' ; ve been shot at, I' ; ve been missed. I' ; ve been talked about in the death row line and it has been settled before it got to me. The bullet has been turned before it hit me and it somehow I feel that it' ; s just one of those things that somebody did something that had something to do with it more than me. Now, that' ; s my feeling. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in the demonstrations during the ' ; 63 marches, between April and May of 1963? HENDRICKS: Yes. I was even out there when we set up the strategy for downtown sit-ins. When they set up that strategy, there was a man sitting out there with overalls on, which wasn' ; t seeming to have anything to say. And he came out and set up the strategy for getting downtown. Everybody go out there and they knocked Fred down with the hose, and everybody go out there. They just turn them over with the hose. So, he' ; s sitting out there without, he wasn' ; t even thinking about anything. He got up and he said, " ; Let me help." ; So he stood up. He said, " ; All y' ; all line up." ; He said, " ; Give me four men over here, four men over here and four men over here. And, all y' ; all ladies get in the middle." ; And when he set it up like that, then they took off. He said, " ; Now, y' ; all go on through." ; He said, " ; When the water hose hit you, all of you lean this way." ; And when the water hose hit us, we didn' ; t stop walking. Like I said, just people, when they organize their strength against the other person, they went on downtown. HUNTLEY: Who was the man in the overalls? HENDRICKS: I can' ; t think of his name. But, all I know at that point, he had on some overalls and was just sitting there, just an ordinary person. But, that' ; s the way we got downtown. As long as we were single, trying to get downtown, as fast as we get to the water hose, they turn us over. But, in that day, I refused to go to jail because my job was more important out of jail, I felt. I had two cars which people didn' ; t want to be done, carrying those wet children home. And I went as far as the airport. I went as far as Bessemer. I went far as Brighton. I went to all of those places to take these children home after they got wet. And, I felt that that was that day it was more important than going to jail. Because a lot of us wouldn' ; t want a wet, wet child, five or six of them in their car wet. But, service, to me, has more to do than a car. HUNTLEY: So you didn' ; t mind the children getting in your car and wetting your seats up? This was a service that was necessary at the time. So whatever was necessary that' ; s what you did. Your family was intimately involved in the Movement. HENDRICKS: My whole family was involved. My oldest daughter, I guess she' ; s already been here for an interview. She went to jail. My wife was secretary for the Movement. My baby was in line for the jail, but they begged us to bring the oldest one back home after she went, so that saved the baby so I was going to take her to jail the next time I went. But, the whole house was in motion to go. I never felt more better. I didn' ; t know how my wife was going to take it, losing my job and losing all I had. But she supported. HUNTLEY: Did you ever lose your job? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: You did lose your job at Jim Dandy' ; s? HENDRICKS: Yes. But, I regained it. I feel like if you ever read the story of Job, everything that has been taken from me or everything I thought was going down the drain, has been given back to me. So, I don' ; t feel like I was a loser. I feel like there is more of this that all of us should find to do until we balance out. I even feel today that we could regain our community back. HUNTLEY: Well, tell me, just briefly about the circumstances of you losing your job? Why did you lose your job? HENDRICKS: Well, when I got involved with that I got in the paper. And, the person who I worked for was White. And, he was with his White brothers. He said, they said that they didn' ; t want to work with me. So, he said to me that their job was more important to them than my one job. So he had to let me go because nobody who was White wanted to work with me. So he pursued to take me in the office and we sat there and talked. And we kind of versed like this. He said to me that " ; I got to run this job with these people." ; And I said to him that, " ; If you run this job, aren' ; t you supposed to make decisions?" ; He says, " ; Yes." ; I said, " ; Well, I' ; m confused." ; He said, " ; Why are you confused?" ; I said, " ; I' ; m confused because you make decisions and you are telling me about who works on the job when it' ; s time for you to make a decision. And it' ; s not based on what they think. So, I would like for you to make a decision. HUNTLEY: And, he made the decision? HENDRICKS: I rode the bus. I was trying to go to Ensley and I end up in jail. He said to me then, " ; What you doing on the bus?" ; I said, " ; Well, I was going to Ensley and I end up in jail." ; He said, " ; Well, I don' ; t feel that you should have rode the bus unless you rode it where you supposed to have rode it at." ; I said, " ; I rode it where I was supposed to. I paid my fare and I just got on there, I was comfortable and sat down." ; But I was confused. I said, " ; Now, you feel that I should be fired and you got people who is on this job who have stole from the company, you didn' ; t fire them." ; I say, " ; You got people on this job who have killed and been convicted for murder, you didn' ; t fire them." ; I said, " ; Why is it that you are firing me for riding a bus and you can' ; t fire the people who stole from the company and who have killed people?" ; So he said to me then, " ; You were off sick wasn' ; t you?" ; I said, " ; Yes." ; " ; And you rode the bus?" ; He said, " ; Yes, well you go back to the doctor and come back to work tomorrow." ; So he haven' ; t answered me yet. I' ; m still waiting on an answer. HUNTLEY: So he didn' ; t fire you then? HENDRICKS: He did. But when I asked him the question rather than an answer it seem like he give me my job back. HUNTLEY: So you talked him back into it. Those were some very interesting pieces. Is there anything else that you would like to add that we may not have covered that relates to the Movement? HENDRICKS: I think that the area of success has been the Movement. And I think that all of us as Blacks should look at the jobs that we have and try to stay within the area of where we are, not retreat to become so complacent that we feel that this automatically happened. We should always be mindful of what are and where we are. And we don' ; t have anything to lose. We only ask for what we own because it rightfully belongs to us and that is my feeling. That has always been my feeling. We only ask the people to move over and give us -- as they call us at night, " ; What you niggers want now?" ; I would always answer them by saying, " ; We want the same thing you all want." ; " ; Well, I' ; ll be over there. Come on and I always entertain my guests." ; And this is the way I would put them when they called me at 3:00 in the morning, 2:00 at night. I feel that the people should feel the same way now. We only are trying to claim what we rightfully own. We are not trying to claim anything that belongs to anybody else. HUNTLEY: They attempted to intimidate you, to scare you so that you would leave the Movement and your advances. HENDRICKS: Oh, yes. I had two or three cars come and watch me cut grass. I had White ladies to call me and try to get me out at 2:00 and 3:00 in the morning. I' ; ve had all this. All these good things happen. It' ; s just one of those things, you have to be aware. HUNTLEY: Mr. Hendricks I want to thank you for coming and taking your time out of your busy schedule to talk with us today. And we will definitely be in touch with you in very short order. We will make copies of this and have you to review them. Thank you for coming. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JHendricks1995.xml JHendricks1995.xml
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Joe Hendricks
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Joe Hendricks discusses being active in the Movement with Rev. Shuttlesworth, the NAACP and the ACMHR. He was arrested during a bus sit-in and helped integrate the Birmingham Airport.
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19950623H
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Birmingham-Shuttlesworth International Airport (Ala.)
Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011
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1995-06-23
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video
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5539f6742760ba258f8c6361525579a4
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
Interviewee
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Jheri Hogan
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JHogan1995.xml
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Kelly Ingram Park--Birmingham (Ala.)
Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department
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5.4 August 2, 1995 Jheri Hogan 19950802H 0:31:55 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Police brutality--United States Kelly Ingram Park--Birmingham (Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Jheri Hogan Horace Huntley Video 1:|12(14)|39(11)|67(8)|93(9)|105(13)|137(7)|160(4)|175(10)|193(12)|216(6)|233(7)|258(12)|289(1)|303(3)|315(17)|333(5)|357(12)|373(13)|400(12)|416(2)|433(12)|451(9)|462(7)|475(13)|485(1)|493(10)|511(5)|523(9)|539(8)|560(9)|573(8) 0 https://youtu.be/R7f4PhAeHk4 YouTube video English 21 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Jheri D. Hogan for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Ms. Hogan is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 41 Family Background What I'd like to do is just talking about, in general terms, your background. Hogan tells where her and her mother were born. Montgomery (Ala.) ; Troy (Mont.) Birmingham (Ala.) 86 Community Background As a child, what community did you live in? When you started school, where were you living? Hogan tells how she grew up in Smithfield but attended a private school that she would walk or ride the bus to. Blue collar workers ; Smithfield Birmingham (Ala.) 245 Attending Catholic Private Schools What do you remember about your elementary school? Hogan recalls how the schools she attended were segregated but she was taught by both white and Black teachers. Blacks--Segregation ; Immaculata ; Our Lady of Sorrows Birmingham (Ala.) 449 Getting Involved with the Movement Can you tell me, just explain to me what the typical mass meeting was like? Hogan recalls how she participated in the Movement because she thought it was a cause worth fighting for. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Mass Meeting ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 583 Being Arrested at a Demonstration Can you describe what the circumstances were of your arrest? Hogan tells how she skipped school to be a part of an organized demonstration and then she got arrested. Arrest (Police methods) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama 767 Spending Several Days in Jail How long were you in jail? Hogan describes how she spent several days in a cramped jail cell and was not released until two in the morning on Easter Sunday. Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; Easter ; Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) 1004 Participating in Other Demonstrations Well, maybe Bull Connor didn't arrest her. Well, the experience of being arrested and being in jail, how did that impact upon you? Hogan recalls how she participated in other demonstrations but never went to jail again. Civil rights movement ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama 1084 Demonstration at Kelly Ingram Park What was the experience with the water? Hogan recalls being at Kelly Ingram Park when the police tried to turn the hoses on but they could not get the water to come out. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Kelly Ingram Park ; Police brutality--United States Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights demonstrations 1145 Support From Her Friends at School When, you came out of jail, you said that your mother simple said, " ; Well, you've done it, now." ; How were you accepted at school as a result of your friends seeing you on TV? Hogan recalls her friends supporting her decision to participate in the demonstrations and how other kids at different schools participated as well. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama Birmingham (Ala.) 1270 Moving Around After High School What did you do after Immaculata, after you finished school? Did you stay in Birmingham or did you leave Birmingham? Hogan discusses how she moved around a lot and how people assumed she liked being away from Birmingham. Atlanta (Ga.) ; Baton Rouge (La.) ; Pittsburgh (Pa.) Bobby Durr Beauty College ; Charm and Modeling School 1422 Racism in the North and South So, are you suggesting that in Birmingham a Black person is probably better off because they know what to expect and other places it may be different? Hogan tells how northern racism is different and that there are areas up there where it is not safe to live. African Americans--Segregation ; Racism African Americans--Southern States ; Northern States 1496 Missing the Togetherness of the Movement The Civil Rights Institute was established for the purpose of gathering information and what we're doing with the oral history project, of course, is gathering information about the Movement itself. Hogan discusses how everyone looked out for each other and how there was a sense of belonging when she participated in the Movement. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) 1704 Educating the Younger Generations I mentioned earlier about the Civil Rights Institute and what is being planned and what is happening there. Hogan states that there is a need for the Institute because the younger generations need to learn about those who sacrificed for them. African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) African Americans--Education ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1880 Conclusion of Interview Thank you very much for coming out, Ms. Hogan. We appreciate your time and you've been quite a help to us. Interview is concluded. Oral History Jheri Hogan discusses spending several days in jail after being arrested at a demonstration. She details how her experiences with racism differed once she moved north from Birmingham. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Jheri D. Hogan for the Birmingham Civil Rights lnstitute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is August 2, 1995. Thank you Mrs. Hogan for coming and being with us today. HOGAN: Thank you. You' ; re welcome. HUNTLEY: What I' ; d like to do is just talking about, in general terms, your background. What we are doing here is simply trying to set the record straight about people' ; s participation in the civil rights movement and I just want to start simply by talking about your family. Can you tell me, were your mother and father from Birmingham? HOGAN: No. I don' ; t really know where my father was from. But my mom was born in Troy, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Troy, Alabama, that' ; s down south of Montgomery, I believe. HOGAN: Somewhere in that neighborhood. HUNTLEY: But you were born, here in Birmingham? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you were an only child, is that right? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: As a child, what community did you live in? When you started school, where were you living? HOGAN: On 17th Street between 8th and 9th Avenue North. It' ; s kind of like downtown Birmingham. HUNTLEY: So, how would you describe your community at that time? HOGAN: Well, the only thing I can say about it, the average person maybe would have said it was the ghetto. But, to me it was a nice community. There were elderly people who saw about the children. You know, kind of like everybody raise the child. And, I was there for a couple of years. And, from there, my mom moved to Smithfield Projects. HUNTLEY: Where did you start first grade? HOGAN: At a Catholic school on 14th Street South and 6th Avenue South. HUNTLEY: Were you living then in Smithfield? HOGAN: Yes, I was living in Smithfield. HUNTLEY: How did you get to school? HOGAN: Ride the bus or walked. HUNTLEY: But you did both? HOGAN: Yes. Because I liked to walk. And, nobody bothered little children at that time, so I could walk to school. HUNTLEY: That was quite a distance from 8th Avenue North to 6th Avenue South? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: That' ; s over a mile. HOGAN: Probably a little further than that. But, at the time, I knew my mom was having problems where money was concerned. So, what I would do would be to try to help. My momma bought the bus tickets, so I' ; d ride the bus to school in the morning and in the evening I' ; d just save my bus ticket and I' ; d walk home. And, it wasn' ; t a problem because it wasn' ; t dark because you got out of school at 3:00. And, like I said, nobody bothered me. HUNTLEY: And you were not walking alone, I assume there were others. HOGAN: Most cases I was. HUNTLEY: Is that right? HOGAN: Because I' ; m a loner, sort of. HUNTLEY: But, there were other children that walked from your community to that school weren' ; t there? HOGAN: No. Because the children in my community went to Lincoln school. Most of them went to public school. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. HOGAN: I went a different direction. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your elementary school? Is there anything that stands out in your mind, about your school, Our Lady of Sorrows? Any teachers, or any subjects that you took? HOGAN: Well, not really. Sister Mary Mercy kind of stands out because for a strange reason, she was my third grade teacher, and, then she became my fifth grade teacher, then she was my sixth grade teacher. So she kind of hung with me for three years. Miss Ford was real nice. She was a Black lay teacher. She taught the fourth grade and Miss Ray was nice. She was the second grade teacher. I just remember these people, they were real nice. HUNTLEY: So you had both Black and White teachers? HOGAN :Yes. I had, in elementary school, I had three. Miss Lacy taught the seventh grade and Miss Ray taught the second and Miss Ford taught the fourth grade. HUNTLEY: So those were three... HOGAN: They were called lay teachers because they were not nuns. And my other teachers were nuns. HUNTLEY: Were the nuns Black or White? HOGAN: All my nuns were White. HUNTLEY: And the lay teachers were Black? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: And, this is in Birmingham, in the 50s, I assume? HOGAN: Yes, in the segregation time. Because my school was segregated. My church was segregated. HUNTLEY: As far as the people were concerned, the student population? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: But your teachers, were both Black and White? HOGAN: Yes. And, my priest was White. HUNTLEY: Well, in Birmingham, Alabama in the 1950s, did that present a problem that you had White teachers at a Black school? HOGAN: No. It didn' ; t present a problem. That was a private school. It was not funded by anything other than by the people who went to school, because we had to pay to go to school. HUNTLEY: It' ; s a Church supported school, it' ; s a Catholic school? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: And, then you went on to Immaculata, to high school? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Immaculata? HOGAN: Not a whole lot. It was the same. Black and White teachers. HUNTLEY: What about activities, were you involved in any activities in high school? HOGAN: No. Because what we really had was basketball, and, we did have a girl' ; s team, but no, I did not. HUNTLEY: Immaculata had a good basketball team at that time and there was a huge rivalry between Immaculata and Ullman or Immaculata and Parker or Immaculata and Wynona. Did you attend the basketball games? HOGAN: Sometimes. HUNTLEY: You graduated from Immaculata in ' ; 63. This is the year where the massive demonstrations took place. You had attended mass meetings, right? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me, just explain to me what the typical mass meeting was like? What happened at a mass meeting? HOGAN: I' ; m trying to think. That' ; s kind of hard to do. I remembered that we would go to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church all night. And different ministers would get up and talk to us and they would tell us what was going on. And, I' ; m trying to think, I cannot remember if I signed up, or... HUNTLEY: How you actively got involved? HOGAN: I cannot really remember that far. HUNTLEY: Whether you were a card carrying member or not. Many people, of course, were not necessarily members of the Alabama Christian Movement, but they participated. HOGAN: I participated. My father was the card carrying person. HUNTLEY: So that may have been your initiative to get involved, is your father, then. HOGAN: Not really. My initiative was to get involved was because everybody that was getting involved was getting involved for a purpose. And my purpose was because I wanted to help my people, if I could. And, if it meant demonstrating and boycotting, then that' ; s what I had to do. HUNTLEY: Were there other friends of yours that were involved from school or from your community that you knew personally, that you all went to meetings together? HOGAN: No. Whatever I did, is like now, I do it by myself. HUNTLEY: You were somewhat of a loner. I know that you actually participated in demonstrations, so you didn' ; t do that alone, now. HOGAN: No, I do that alone. But, they weren' ; t people like I knew personally or close. was in the Movement and when we did the demonstrations there were a lot of people. I don' ; t really remember them. HUNTLEY: You were involved in the demonstration just prior to Easter, I believe? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: And, you were actually arrested. HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you describe what the circumstances were of your arrest? HOGAN: Let' ; s see, I remember we were walking. We went down 5th Avenue because we got stopped where the old Trailways bus station was. And, if I' ; m thinking correctly, the policeman stopped us, I don' ; t know if they said, disorderly conduct, I cannot remember what the charge was. HUNTLEY: Well, let me back up just a bit. Do you remember the specific day that you were arrested? Did you go to school that morning or did you leave school? HOGAN: I didn' ; t go to school because, let me see, no, I didn' ; t go to school that morning. HUNTLEY: Did your parents, your mother know that you were going to the demonstration that morning? HOGAN: No. HUNTLEY: Well, what did you do? You left home going to school. HOGAN: Well, see my mom always left home before I did because my mom had to be at work. So when I left home, nobody knew what my intentions were, but me. HUNTLEY: Now, this time, where were you living? HOGAN: In Smithfield Projects. HUNTLEY: You were living in Smithfield, so you were actually going in the opposite direction than going to school that morning, when you left home? HOGAN: I was going in the right direction of going to school, because I was going downtown, because see, I had to ride the bus. HUNTLEY: Oh, you rode the bus, I see. And, how did you make the decision that you were going to the demonstration rather than to school? HOGAN: I had already been to the meeting. And, whatever I had to do for, because you had, I think we had to sign up, because they had to know, because they were going to have to know who they were going to have to get out of jail. HUNTLEY: You mean, you may have signed up the previous evening at the meeting prior to? HOGAN: I had to sign up prior to, because you don' ; t just go and, you know, you didn' ; t just go, they had it organized. HUNTLEY: Well, after you signed up that night, probably the night before the demonstration, then you went home, did you tell your mother about signing up for the demonstration? HOGAN: No. HUNTLEY: Why not? HOGAN: Because she would have forbidden me to go. HUNTLEY: Oh, so you simply decided on your own that it was time for you to get involved? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Then, you are arrested, and you are placed in the paddy wagon, when did your mother find out that you were arrested? HOGAN: On the news. HUNTLEY: Wait a minute, what do you mean, on the news? HOGAN: She saw me stepping up in the paddy wagon, like my friends saw me stepping up in the paddy wagon. HUNTLEY: What was her first reaction when she saw you, after you had been arrested? HOGAN: She didn' ; t say anything, just, " ; Okay, you did it." ; HUNTLEY: How long were you in jail? HOGAN: I think we went like, we were in there a couple of days, because I remember that, we may have been in there three days, because we may have gone in the middle of the week. Because, I know we went to court on a Friday and they had did all our bonds. Rev. Gardner had did our bonds and everything. But they did not let us out until like 2:00 that Easter Sunday morning. HUNTLEY: Is that right. HOGAN: That' ; s when they started calling different names and letting everybody out. HUNTLEY: That seemed to be a trend, because many people have stated that they were let out, very, very early in the morning, between 1:00 and 4:00, before sunrise. That' ; s rather interesting. What do you remember about being in jail? HOGAN: I remember this old lady. I remember when we first got out of the paddy wagon. Well, back up. Going to jail they just packed us in like sardines in a can. They rode down the railroad tracks, things that' ; s not there now. Just kind of reel and rock because the paddy wagon was metal and everybody was just, you couldn' ; t breathe or anything. And, when they took us out, they took us in this little room and they fingerprinted us. And this old lady always stands out in my mind, because she started shouting. She wasn' ; t upset, she was just praising God that she had got a chance to live, to see it, to try to help do something about the way things were going. And, then they took us. And, at first they put us in a regular jail with the regular inmates and the inmates we had, we had some and stuff on us, so the inmates that could go out, went out and brought us lunch meat and stuff back. They were real nice. They took our clothes that we had on and washed them and brought them back to us. So, the policemen didn' ; t like that, so they took us and put us upstairs in some cells that didn' ; t have any mattress or anything. And, they had this huge fan up in the ceiling that they turned on but we could turn it off because the switch was on, in our room. And they used to yell at us. But at nighttime or whenever, the old people felt like praying, if somebody started praying and singing, they wouldn' ; t say nothing. HUNTLEY: The police would not say anything? HOGAN: They wouldn' ; t say anything. They had an old lady in there who call Jesus and she could him so, you would think he was standing right there, he was on his way in the door. And, then we would sing our songs and they wouldn' ; t say anything. The only time they said something is when we got quiet. So, most times it was something going on. HUNTLEY: When you were arrested, were you inside the terminal? HOGAN: No. We were outside, because we were walking down the street. HUNTLEY: I see. Now, you were demonstrating, this was the same demonstration that Al Hibbler was a part of? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did they arrest him? HOGAN: No. HUNTLEY: Why not? HOGAN: Well, Bull Conner said he didn' ; t arrest blind people. HUNTLEY: But, when you arrived at the jail, you were surprised by something, what was that? HOGAN: There was a Black lady in jail, and she was blind and she could get around in the jail better than we could. She knew all the little holes, everywhere everything was. And she had been arrested because of disorderly conduct and drinking. HUNTLEY: Well, maybe Bull Conner didn' ; t arrest her. Well, the experience of being arrested and being in jail, how did that impact upon you? What did you learn from that or did you learn anything from it? HOGAN: Well, going to jail didn' ; t really bother me because I knew I was going for a purpose. I wasn' ; t going because I had did something wrong. I was going because I wanted to try to achieve something. And whatever I had to do, to be a part of or to help, I did. HUNTLEY: So, this experience then, didn' ; t deter you from being active in the Movement? HOGAN: No. HUNTLEY: Were you in other demonstrations afterwards? HOGAN: Well, I was in other demonstrations and doing things. But, at that time afterwards, they decided, I wasn' ; t one that they would put in jail. I was one that they would put water or they would start putting dogs on us. HUNTLEY: Did you ever experience any of that, the water or the dogs? HOGAN: The water, but not the dogs. HUNTLEY: What was the experience with the water? HOGAN: In the park. HUNTLEY: Tell me about it. HOGAN: Well, we were ready for them because we knew what they had planned to do. So we wore swimsuits, we took soap. We kind of make clowns out of them and they didn' ; t like that. We were just ready for it, for whatever they were going to do. So that kind of deterred them a little, from doing that. We had a Sunday prayer, a Sunday in the park and they were going to turn the water on us again. HUNTLEY: Is this at Kelly Ingram Park? HOGAN: Yes. But the water wouldn' ; t come on. They were praying so hard and just forgot about it. HUNTLEY: So, you' ; re saying the spirit was there? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you were basically protected as a result of the strength of the prayers? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: When, you came out of jail, you said that your mother simply said, " ; Well, you' ; ve done it, now." ; How were you accepted at school as a result of your friends seeing you on TV? HOGAN: Oh, they thought it was great. They thought I had did something great. Because when they saw me go to jail, everybody got together and they packed lunches and candy and all this stuff and they brought it, but they would not let us have it. And, the night, well the early morning that they let me out of jail, they called me. I was like half-way down the street, outside. So they called me to come back. And everybody got frightened, including me, because I didn' ; t know what they wanted. And, when I went back he gave me this great big bag and it was candy, cookies, everything. Everybody had got together and brought it down because they thought that we could have it. Well, I guess in a normal state, we could have, but by the situation being as it was, they wouldn' ; t give it to me. But, they wouldn' ; t do anything with it, either. HUNTLEY: Do you know if there were other students from Immaculata that were arrested, not necessarily at the same time as you, but maybe at different times? HOGAN: No. I don' ; t. HUNTLEY: But you do remember that there were a lot of young people involved? HOGAN: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: But you didn' ; t know any of them personally? HOGAN: No. Yes, I did. Because Clark, he was one of my neighbors. His mom, I know his mom had told he and his sister not to go. And, Parker had a fence up around it. That' ; s when the kids knocked the fence down and came out, a lot of the kids went to jail. HUNTLEY: The kids were coming from all over Birmingham, various schools. Some would go to schools and leave schools. Others, like yourself, would not even go to school, but participated. What did you do after Immaculata, after you finished school? Did you stay in Birmingham or did you leave Birmingham? HOGAN: Well, when I finished school, I went to Bobby Durr Beauty College and Charm and Modeling School. HUNTLEY: And, you eventually developed your own business, right? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, have you lived in Birmingham the entire time? HOGAN: No. For a while I lived in Atlanta. And, from Atlanta, went to Pittsburgh. From Pittsburgh, back to Atlanta. And from Atlanta to Baton Route, Louisiana. And would have stayed there but my mom got sick and I came home to see about her. And, that' ; s when I started my own business 12 years ago. HUNTLEY: I see. So, of course, the attraction of your mom being here in Birmingham, but as you travelled from Atlanta to Pittsburgh to Baton Rouge, did any of the experiences that you had in Birmingham have any impact upon how you actually related to other people in these various places that you had lived? Did people, after they found out you were from Birmingham, did they have questions about what Birmingham was like and if you had been involved. Any kinds of questions like that from people in Pittsburgh, Atlanta and Baton Rouge? HOGAN: Well, people would tease me sometime and say, " ; It' ; s good to be away, huh?" ; And I' ; d say, " ; No, because Birmingham is my home, and I like my home." ; And, the one thing that I know, that as long as my skin is this color, I know what' ; s going to happen. And, like I told them, " ; In Birmingham, I know, they throw the rock and you see the hand. Away from home, they throw the rock and hide their hand." ; People are people all over the world. And, in my choice, I would still rather be here at home. HUNTLEY: So, are you suggesting that in Birmingham a Black person is probably better off because they know what to expect and other places it may be different? HOGAN: I say you know exactly what to expect here and I really believe that up north they know what to expect. It' ; s just that the stigmatism was back in slavery time or coming out of slavery. They offered one-way tickets up north because of the north and the south thing. But, in studying, in being there, in listening to the news, they are places up north that they don' ; t want Blacks either. There are places where they can' ; t live safely either. And here, there are a little more places that you can live safely, they may not want you there, but if you get there, they are not as harmful. HUNTLEY: The Civil Rights Institute was established for the purpose of gathering information and what we' ; re doing with the oral history project, of course, is gathering information about the Movement itself. If someone would ask you the question that I' ; m about to ask you, what would be the most vivid memory that you have, of those days that you were involved with the Civil Rights Movement? Is there anything that stands out in your mind, that you remember during the period that you were involved as a young person in the demonstrations or attending the meetings? HOGAN: The people who attended the meeting were, to me, close together. A togetherness that we need as a whole. And I wish that we could be together. HUNTLEY: Are you suggesting that people were closer together at that point, more so than we are today? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Why do you think that' ; s the case? HOGAN: I don' ; t really truthfully have an answer for that. I just remember something my dad use to say. He said when he was young, he knew exactly what he was going to wear because he only had one outfit and he had to wash it and keep it clean. He said, but now he' ; s got so many things, he don' ; t know what to wear. And he' ; ll say, I don' ; t have anything, but he has plenty. And that' ; s the only reason I know, because when we didn' ; t have anything, we were close. Because as a child I can remember when I used to go to the country to see my grandmother, nobody was hungry and nobody was outside, other than one time a lady' ; s house got burned up. She didn' ; t have to worry because people always had something to offer or to help and they were sincere. And, now we' ; ve got so much and we' ; ve come so far, but also in coming so far, we' ; ve gotten so far apart. HUNTLEY: Well, then, does that mean that today, if we had less or does that mean that we should not strive to get more because it places a wedge between us, or what does that mean? HOGAN: No. I think we should strive to get more. Because I truly believe that that' ; s what God wants us to do, is to have more. But, also, in having more, we should share and we should be closer because we have come so far. HUNTLEY: So, really the gathering of these material things should not act as a wedge? We should really look at those as being blessings and actually those should draw us closer together rather than open the gap more so? HOGAN: True, true. HUNTLEY: I mentioned earlier about the Civil Rights Institute and what is being planned and what is happening there. How do you view the Institute itself in relationship to the Movement? Do you think that it is something that needed to happen or do you think that we really didn' ; t need a Civil Rights Institute here in Birmingham? HOGAN: I think we needed it. We need it bad. HUNTLEY: Why? HOGAN: Because of the younger generation who didn' ; t have to come up like I did, they need to be able to view and truly see what has happened in their history. And, if they see what has happened in their history, hopefully it will make them want to do better about themselves. HUNTLEY: So you think that as an educational institution, it is very important simply to keep the history alive so that the children and the generations to come will actually know from whence they' ; ve come? HOGAN: True. So true. HUNTLEY: Do you have children? HOGAN: I have one daughter. HUNTLEY: Have you talked with her about your experiences during the movement? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: How does she react to what you tell her? HOGAN: Well, she understands what' ; s happening, what has happened and what is happening. HUNTLEY: Is there a way that you would think we should be able to pass this information on down through the generations, in addition to utilizing the Civil Rights Institute? Can we do some of that at home, as well? HOGAN: Yes. If we talk to our children and if we have Black history books, because they do have things that tell us about it. And, we as Blacks, have always stood for something, have done things, from the time there' ; s been a world up until now. HUNTLEY: And you think that this obviously is a key ingredient in that whole sojourn of Black people throughout this country? Are you suggesting that this period of history, that you were instrumental in, plays a key role in the total development of the history of Birmingham and of the nation? HOGAN: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to share with us today, in relationship to the Movement that we may have not touched upon? HOGAN: I don' ; t think so. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much for coming out, Ms. Hogan. We appreciate your time and you' ; ve been quite a help to us. HUNTLEY: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
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Jheri Hogan
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Jheri Hogan discusses spending several days in jail after being arrested at a demonstration. She details how her experiences with racism differed once she moved north from Birmingham.
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19950802H
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Police brutality--United States
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1995-08-02
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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bcriohp
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Horace Huntley
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Rev. N. H. Smith
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King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
John Porter
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5.4 July 26, 1995 Rev. N. H. Smith 19950726S 1:07:18 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 John Porter Rev. N. H. Smith Horace Huntley Video 1:|16(6)|37(2)|46(4)|61(8)|75(7)|86(8)|94(10)|104(4)|115(7)|125(13)|134(8)|159(7)|170(7)|182(13)|195(14)|208(8)|221(8)|231(7)|240(5)|258(6)|276(3)|286(9)|308(2)|317(2)|330(4)|343(3)|357(6)|372(9)|384(6)|392(8)|408(12)|426(5)|431(5)|442(4)|456(13)|479(9)|500(1)|526(7)|541(1)|561(1)|577(14)|591(7)|603(3)|614(13)|632(10)|643(7)|655(1)|666(4)|677(11)|689(6)|698(2)|707(1)|715(1)|725(14)|738(11)|755(6)|767(11)|787(13)|810(13)|834(12)|847(14)|854(12)|862(12)|867(4)|874(9)|886(14)|901(4) 0 https://youtu.be/Q1IPbdId3M8 YouTube video English 21 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Rev. N. H. Smith for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Rev. Smith is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 37 Family Background I want to start just by asking some general questions about background. What part of the state were your parents from? Smith tells where his parents are from, where he was born, and his parents educational background. Mary Holmes Seminary (West Point, Miss.) ; Selma University Brewton (Ala.) ; Monroe County (Ala.) 179 Educational Journey So as a young person growing up, you were in fact, your parents being educated individuals and really being upstanding citizens in the community, that sort of laid the foundation for you. Smith tells how he went to Selma University and how getting that education was an important part in his life. Bethlehem Baptist Association (Ala.) ; Selma University Monroeville (Ala.) ; Selma (Ala.) 554 Becoming a Preacher What did you do after Selma University? Smith recalls how after he got married he was preaching at two churches every month. Shiloh Baptist Church ; Tabernacle Baptist Church Clanton (Ala.) ; Montevallo (Ala.) 674 Urban vs Rural Cities When you arrived in Birmingham in '53 where did you live? Smith recalls the differences between urban and rural cities and how he moved to Birmingham to lead a congregation. New Pilgrim Baptist Church ; Parker, Charles H. Birmingham (Ala.) 845 Establishing Himself as a Preacher in Birmingham In 1953, of course, Birmingham was a rather interesting place. In 1954, Brown v. Board of Education decision takes place. Smith states that he did not immediately get involved with the NAACP because he was trying to establish himself as a preacher in Birmingham. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Pastor Birmingham (Ala.) 894 Charter Member of the Alabama Christian Movement And, then in '56 the state outlawed the operation of the NAACP which leads to the birth of the Alabama Christian Movement and you were, in fact, a charter member of the Movement. Smith discusses how the Alabama Christian Movement was founded to fight for rights after the NAACP was banned. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Racism 1221 Attending the National Baptist Convention I sort of distracted you when you were talking about you and Fred headed to Hot Springs. What was the trip to Hot Springs about? Smith recalls the time when he and Reverend Shuttlesworth attended the National Baptist Convention in Hot Springs, Arkansas. National Baptist Convention of America ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Hot Springs (Ark.) 1295 Experiencing Racism Throughout the South Did you ever encounter any difficulties in traveling between Birmingham and other places in the south? Smith recalls how he has been denied service in several places so he would take his business elsewhere. African Americans--Segregation ; Racism Birmingham (Ala.) ; Southern States--Race relations 1372 Becoming Secretary of the Alabama Christian Movement Now, in '56 when the actual Movement has started, when the organization of the Movement as a result of the NAACP being outlawed, what was your role? Smith recalls how tense the time was and how himself and Reverend Shuttlesworth were not taken as seriously as the leaders of the Jefferson County Betterment Association. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Jefferson County Betterment Association Birmingham (Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1537 Integrating Schools and Buses What were your first efforts an an organization after the Movement started? Smith states that their first effort as an organization was trying to get the schools and buses integrated and how this integration was not well received. Buses ; Integration ; Phillips High School Birmingham (Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1650 Attending Mass Meetings Tell me. I've asked people this question over and over again. What was a mass meeting like? Smith discusses what mass meetings were like and how he got his nickname " ; fireball" ; . Civil rights movement ; Mass meeting ; Revival Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 1795 Relationship with Vernon Johns You had some relationship with Vernon Johns. What was that relationship? And tell me who was Vernon Johns? Smith discusses his relationship with Vernon Johns and how he was the first Black preacher to have a sermon in the magazine, Best Sermons. Johns, Vernon, 1892-1965 ; The Second Century of Freedom Birmingham (Ala.) ; New Pilgrim Baptist Church 2035 Being Arrested Twice and Going to Jail I know that you were involved in a lot of the demonstrations. Can you remember the first time you were involved in a demonstration? Smith discusses how he and his constituents went to jail and how the famous picture of him, Dr. King, and Reverend Porter came to be. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; John Porter ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.) 2520 Bull Connor's Attitude Toward the Movement Well, in terms of the way that the demonstrations were acted out, we know that Bull Connor played a prominent role, some even say in the success of the Movement because of the way in which he responded to the demonstrations. Smith recalls how Bull Connor helped propel the Movement forward because of his abusive treatment. Civil rights movement ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 2712 Recruiting Children to Join the Movement During those days of planning, what was the typical day like, during say between April and May of 1963, planning for this confrontation? Smith recalls how they would go to schools to recruit children and many of the children wanted to go to jail to support the cause. A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Children's March 3005 Memories of the Bombing at Dr. King's House and the A.G. Gaston Motel What's your most vivid memory of that particular period? Smith discusses how he was present when Dr. King's house and the A.G. Gaston Motel were bombed. A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Ensley (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States 3304 Bombings at the Shores House and Getting Shot in the Leg Was this the worst that you had seen in Birmingham during the struggle as far as violence was concerned? Smith recalls how he was present when Arthur Shores's house was bombed the first time and how he was shot in the leg by the police. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Birmingham (Ala.). Fire and Rescue Service Department ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States 3641 Telling Birmingham's Story Obviously, you've had a lot of involvement and you have a lot of information about the Movement. Smith tells how the people who lived through the Movement need to do a better job of telling Birmingham's story and all that they encountered. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil rights movement Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) 3989 Conclusion of Interview Well, we are hopeful that this is the beginning of doing exactly what you are suggesting because what we are doing is talking to people like yourself and others who were involved and getting their parts of the story. Interview is concluded. Oral History Rev. N. H. Smith discusses being a charter member of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights, and later serving as secretary. He was an active demonstrator, including marching with Dr. King and Rev. Porter. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Rev. N. H. Smith for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is July 26, 1995. Rev. Smith, I want to thank you for taking your time out to come and sit with us today. SMITH: My pleasure. HUNTLEY: I want to start just by asking some general questions about background. What part of the state were your parents from? SMITH: Well, my father was from Monroe County and my mother was from Sumter County. HUNTLEY: And you were born? SMITH: In Brewton, Alabama which is in the southern part of the state. HUNTLEY: Right. How many brothers and sisters did you have? SMITH: Three sisters and one brother. HUNTLEY: And where did you fit? SMITH: I' ; m the third child. HUNTLEY: The third child. Tell me a bit about your parents. What about their education and their occupation? SMITH: Well, my father told me that he went to Selma University when he became a man. The schooling that he had up until that point was 6th grade. And, then he went to Selma University in 1918, I think it was, and stayed until he graduated from high school. And, you know, that was a great achievement in those days. HUNTLEY: Right. And he was a minister? SMITH: Yes. And my mother went to Mary Holmes Seminary in West Point, Mississippi. Maybe that name has changed. But Mary Holmes was in West Point, Mississippi. So, she graduated from junior college there. Well, she expressed many times that when she went to Monroeville to teach and perhaps school was where my father was principal, that you know, people used to run up to her and say, oh, Mrs. Smith, what you going to do with all that education, because most of the teachers in those days, had not gone that far in college. And to finish high school, you know, it was the equivalent of maybe to masters today. I think the curriculum was better and I think they were better educated. HUNTLEY: So as a young person growing up, you were in fact, your parents being educated individuals and really being upstanding citizens in the community, that sort of laid foundation for you. What about your education? SMITH: Well, I' ; ve never gone to public school. There was a school in Monroeville called the Bethlehem Industrial Academy which was owned by the Association. HUNTLEY: What association? SMITH: Bethlehem Association, Baptist. I think at one time it was called the Colored Bethlehem District Association. HUNTLEY: I see. SMITH: My community and this association, that district and all, they were quite interested in education. It was something that they promoted. And, I am told that at some point, percentage wise, you had maybe the highest number of college people from that area in the Black community. Percentage wise. HUNTLEY: This is in Brewton? SMITH: No. See, my father was called to a church, The Morning Star Church in Monroeville, Alabama. At the time of my birth, he was the principal of a school in Brewton, Alabama called the Evergreen District School. So, I was born there. And, then the following year, we moved to Monroeville, which was his home county. HUNTLEY: And, how long did you live in Monroeville? SMITH: I left there when I was 16 and I went to Selma University. Selma University at that time, you could begin in kindergarten and go through your bachelor' ; s divinity' ; s program there. So I went there in the 11th grade. I finished high school and college at Selma University. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about those days in terms of just your schooling, the way that you laid in foundation at Selma University as a high school and a college student? SMITH: Well, one of the things that I' ; ve reflected on many times, chapel was mandatory. The second period of every day we went to chapel. And they would have some accomplished people from time to time who would come in and perhaps the most memorable one was Dr. Ralph (inaudible) Gilbert from Savannah, Georgia, whose father at one time was president of Selma University. And he was a tremendous mind. He had involved himself a great deal in drama and he pastored the First African Baptist Church in Savannah, Georgia, and that church, it has always been (inaudible) oldest Black church and this kind of thing. But I remember him and some other guys, accomplished me who would come in from time to time. The literary society met every Tuesday. They had Baptist Training Union every Wednesday during the chapel hour. You had many things going on at that school that would give you some exposure to the arts and the sciences. Everybody who graduated from high school had to be in a Shakespearean play. It was a rich experience and fortunately or unfortunately, many of us, maybe in this state, who had the experience of attending, maybe we don' ; t recognize the richness of that institution. If not now, at least at that point in time. HUNTLEY: You being a high school student, really on a college campus, per se. I remember when I went from elementary school to high school, you always looked forward to going up the hill to the high school. How was that transition from your high school experiences then to Selma University, although you' ; re still at the same place? SMITH: Well, with the exposure to people who are already in college, I guess that enhanced the whole situation. It was just one big campus. However, it was very strict. Boys were allowed to visit the girls four times a month. They would give you first and third Saturdays in the afternoon. They would give you a few minutes after (inaudible) Missionary Society met on the second Sunday in each month. And, then you would have a social once a month, at night in the chapel. So I mean you could just sit and talk to your girlfriend. HUNTLEY: You mean there were no dorms, no cooperative dorms? SMITH: No. You could go to the dorm on the first and third Saturday afternoons. I don' ; t know, maybe they would allow you an hour. But you know, we found a way to talk to the girls. HUNTLEY: What did you do after Selma University? SMITH: Well, while I was at Selma I started preaching. And that same year I had served a brief period in Mobile, then February of ' ; 49 I was asked to serve as an assistant in Clanton, Alabama. Maybe before ' ; 49 was out, or sometime in ' ; 50, I was called to Tabernacle Baptist Church in my home county, in Beatrice, Alabama. I stayed in Clanton until 1953. I met my wife in Clanton and we got married in 1951. Well, the Sunday I announced I was going to get married, the pastor of the church announced that he was retiring, and the church called me as full pastor all in the same Sunday. So I stayed there and I left Beatrice going to the Shiloh church in Montevallo. So, at that point, I had two churches. Union Church in Clanton and the Shiloh church in Montevallo. HUNTLEY: How would you handle the two churches? SMITH: Well, they were on different Sundays. HUNTLEY: First and third, second and fourth? SMITH: Yes, and, then in 1953 I was called to Birmingham. So I have been in Birmingham ever since. HUNTLEY: Since 1953? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: When you arrived in Birmingham in ' ; 53 where did you live? SMITH: Well, I lived with one of the deacons who that same year started to preaching, Rev. George Harris. And I must have lived at his house for eight months until we got a parsonage built. And, then I moved in the parsonage on First Street South. HUNTLEY: Was that at New Pilgrim? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: What was Birmingham like. What was it like coming from Montevallo to Birmingham and your experiences in other, smaller towns? SMITH: Well, Birmingham was a large city. But you had a lot of country people in a large city. HUNTLEY: Right. You had a lot of migration from the rural to the urban. SMITH: Yes. Simply because of jobs and this kind of thing. It was a tremendous challenge and I guess a great deal of inspiration came as well as, I would see him as my closest mentor at that time was Rev. Charles H. Parker, pastor of 32nd Street Church, here in the city. I met him when I first went to Selma because he pastored the West Trinity church in Selma. So, he was quite helpful. He suggested that if you' ; re really going to lead people, you got to have a strong backbone. You' ; ve got to be willing to make decisions and not worry about who might become angry or whatever. So, and even within my own congregation there were those who would say now, the chairman of our deacons said to me, Charlie Moody. You know he said, " ; We want a pastor, we want a strong pastor." ; And I was only 22 years old. HUNTLEY: 22 years old, coming to a city to lead a congregation? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: In 1953, of course, Birmingham was a rather interesting place. In 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision takes place. The NAACP is operating in the state, did you get involved immediately with the NAACP or with any organizations that was community-based outside of the church? SMITH: Not really. I came in, I was trying to get established. It was during this period, however, not long after that the NAACP was outlawed which gave birth to the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. HUNTLEY: But just prior to that the Montgomery Bus Boycott took place. SMITH: Yes. It started in ' ; 55. HUNTLEY: And, then in ' ; 56 the state outlawed the operation of the NAACP which leads to the birth of the Alabama Christian Movement and you were, in fact, a charter member of the Movement. Can you tell me just a bit about how that all transpired? SMITH: Well, Rev. Shuttlesworth and I, by the way, he went to Selma University, also. HUNTLEY: Were you there together at the same time? SMITH: Yes. We didn' ; t talk about civil rights when we were at Selma University. But, we came to Birmingham the same year. So, as well as Rev. Norwood, who also went to Selma University. Rev. W. J. Davis went to Selma University. So several of the men in the city went to Selma University. Rev. J. Salary went to Selma University. Many, many guys. I remember we went to Hot Springs together. Our mid-winter meeting of the National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc. HUNTLEY: Hot Springs, Georgia? SMITH: Hot Springs, Arkansas. So, I said, I told Fred, I said, " ; Come on, ride with me." ; Well, I talked him into it. So we went and we talked a lot about conditions and this kind of thing. HUNTLEY: What kind of conditions existed at this time? SMITH: Well, Birmingham was a hard town. I' ; ve expressed it sometime that Birmingham was sort of like what they work with. It was hard like steel and dirty like coal. Rigid segregation. Mr. Conner was sort of " ; the man" ; and you were limited in your movements. One White policeman could speak, in most instances to a crowd of 25-30 Blacks and " ; (inaudible) you boys move off the corner." ; Something like that. And they would more than likely move. But now it would take 25 of them to make two of us move. It' ; s an interesting scenario when you think about it. You reflect on it. There were certain elevators that you could not ride. You had designated elevators for Black people to ride. However, White people could ride on all of them, but you couldn' ; t ride on all of them. And, all, when you look at a whole lot of things were so silly. HUNTLEY: So now you have these two young ministers new to the city, who' ; s headed to Hot Springs, Arkansas and you' ; re discussing this kind of information? SMITH: Yes. We talked about it. Because I remember that Fred has quoted that we were, maybe coming down the mountain over there and I think I said, " ; Fred, White people are always talking about our way of life, our way of life." ; And I remember saying, " ; Hell, we' ; re here too." ; This kind of thing. So he has expressed, he said that many times. But this is the way we felt. I was not, I guess my upbringing made me interested in trying to do something about the conditions of the race, but I wouldn' ; t call myself any kind of pioneer in the sense of being aggressively involved to be a leader or anything like that. We talked about it. We worked together. We shared our ideas and whatever manifesto that we came up with. And, we set this mass meeting, but you need to keep in mind there was a Jefferson County Betterment Association before. HUNTLEY: Before the Alabama Christian Movement? SMITH: Yes. With Dr. E. W. Williams in Fairfield, I think was elected president. But, nothing was being done. HUNTLEY: Was this simply an organization? SMITH: Well, it was sort of patterned after the MIA. HUNTLEY: And the MIA was? SMITH: It was the organization in Montgomery and... HUNTLEY: That led the bus boycott? SMITH: Yes. But nothing was being done. This is partly the reason I would say the Alabama Christian Movement was started because nothing was really going on. HUNTLEY: I sort of distracted you when you were talking about you and Fred headed to Hot Springs. What was the trip to Hot Springs about? SMITH: It was the mid-winter meeting of the National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc. HUNTLEY: Did that meeting have any impact upon what the discussion that you guys were having on the way up? SMITH: No. HUNTLEY: Were there any organizational efforts done during that meeting? SMITH: No. You know when I think about, you would go like from here to Tuscaloosa and down through Columbus, Mississippi and across the state really into Arkansas. And, you really gained so much of the experiences of just making the trip. You know you couldn' ; t stop at restaurants and all. You had to be extremely careful in buying your gasoline and this kind of thing. HUNTLEY: Did you ever encounter any difficulties in traveling between Birmingham and other places in the south? SMITH: Well, I' ; ve been denied the use of restrooms and, then there have been times when they were putting in gas and I would say, " ; Where' ; s your restroom?" ; And they would say, " ; We don' ; t have one for Colored people," ; they would say, because Black, the word Black had not come into vogue. So many times I would say, " ; Well, that' ; s okay, stop the gas right there." ; And I would pay him for whatever gas that he had put in and go on somewhere else. HUNTLEY: What do you mean you wouldn' ; t buy any... SMITH: I wouldn' ; t let him fill up my tank. HUNTLEY: But when you were going to someplace else, where would that some place else be? SMITH: Well, anywhere across the south, particularly across the south. HUNTLEY: But if you couldn' ; t use the facilities... SMITH: You know that became a strategy then. You know, if we find out they had a restroom, and if they didn' ; t have a restroom, you just go on somewhere else. HUNTLEY: Now, in ' ; 56 when the actual Movement has started, when the organization of the Movement as a result of the NAACP being outlawed, what was your role? SMITH: Well, I served as secretary. I was elected secretary of the Alabama Christian Movement. HUNTLEY: Tell me something about just those initial meetings. SMITH: Well, during that period of time, tensions were high. It was that same year the Autherine Lucy situation. It was that same year that the Clinton, Tennessee school thing was going on that same year. I think it was that same year, well, I remember John Temple Graves who was a columnist for the Birmingham Post Herald, the morning after the, this must have been June 6, 1956, in his column I think he said something about " ; no time for sergeants." ; Rev. Shuttlesworth and myself were seen as sergeants and the other men who had been elected head of the Jefferson County Betterment Association, they were seen as more like generals. HUNTLEY: Was that because they were older? SMITH: This is the way at least we interpreted it. HUNTLEY: So were there ever any conflicts between the two groups? SMITH: Well, not necessarily conflicts. Many of us were castigated the following day after we organized because some of the people present in the organization were members of the Baptist Ministers Conference and Rev. J. L. Ware had been the president of the conference and back in the days of the bombings in Birmingham, he had been a voice to speak out against that. But he was not chosen in this setting. HUNTLEY: What were your first efforts as an organization after the Movement started? What were you attempting to do? SMITH: Well, we, the buses, the schools. HUNTLEY: The hiring of police, is that one? SMITH: I think that is one of the items you know. I would have to go back and look in the record because there were so many things, you know, the airport. I don' ; t know, that might have been my case, I don' ; t know. Because different ones. But you had buses, you had the schools and I' ; m trying to think wasn' ; t that in 1957? HUNTLEY: ' ; 57 was when Shuttlesworth attempted to... SMITH: He and Rev. Pfeiffer. HUNTLEY: Right. At Phillips High school and was attacked. SMITH: Yes. And, then in 1958, the buses. HUNTLEY: So, really usually when we look at the Birmingham story we talk about buses, we talk about schools, later on we' ; ll be talking about the parks. SMITH: I think during somewhere along in there, they must have closed the parks. HUNTLEY: They closed the parks in either ' ; 60 or ' ; 61. Now, you being the secretary of the Movement, that means that you attended all of the mass meetings I assume. SMITH: Unless I was out of town preaching or something like that. HUNTLEY: Tell me. I' ; ve asked people this question over and over again. What was a mass meeting like? Can you just describe it? SMITH: Well, a mass meeting was sort of like church. We sang, we prayed, we received the latest word on what' ; s happening, not only in the community, but across the state, across the nation. We gave money. We kept hope alive. And, you know, after so long, the police department started sending policemen to our meetings. At first we resented it, and maybe we resented it all the while. But after a while, so what. HUNTLEY: You were given a nickname. You were said to be, they called you " ; fireball." ; SMITH: Well, that didn' ; t have anything to do with the Movement. HUNTLEY: It had nothing to do with the Movement? SMITH: No. Deacon Davis, Deacon Richmond Davis who had a radio program on Sunday mornings, I preached at St. Peter' ; s Primitive Baptist Church where his membership was, in Bessemer. Dr. W. A. Clark was the pastor. So he invited me out to preach and it was a tent night meeting. So the Sunday between the weeks on his radio show, he said, " ; You got to come to the revival this week." ; Rev. N. H. Smith, Jr., pastor of New Pilgrim Baptist Church is preaching and he' ; s a fireball." ; That' ; s how that came and that' ; s before the Movement started here and people just never forgot that this was his expression. HUNTLEY: You had some relationship with Vernon Johns. What was that relationship? And tell me who was Vernon Johns? SMITH: Vernon Johns was the most brilliant man, I guess, one of the most brilliant that I' ; ve ever met. He thought about things seemingly that the other people never thought about. And we put together, he shared with me an idea and I agreed to it and we put together a magazine called The Second Century of Freedom a journal of goals. HUNTLEY: You were co-authors of that? SMITH: Well, yes. HUNTLEY: Was this in Montgomery? SMITH: No. No. No. He would come here. That was after he had left Montgomery. He' ; d come to preach at New Pilgrim Church and we would talk and he had an unusual respect for me. And he finally told me why. I would differ with him and this made him really interested in what my ideas were. HUNTLEY: He has a very strong personality? SMITH: Oh, yes. I have one or two copies of the first issue of the magazine. I don' ; t have a copy of the second one. I don' ; t know what happen to it. But the first one I do have. HUNTLEY: I would be interested in seeing that. So, how long did that relationship last then? SMITH: Well, let me see. I' ; m trying to see... HUNTLEY: How did you meet him? Because he was sort of the person in Montgomery prior to the bus boycott, is that right? SMITH: I' ; m trying to see when I met him. I don' ; t really know. I know maybe in the late 50s I had an opportunity to meet him and we struck up a friendship. He stayed at my house many times. There was a member in our church who did some typing for him. I remember, I know one of the great sermons of his was " ; What to do with life." ; Part of that sermon might have been written in my house. He did it at Atlanta University commencement one of those years, " ; What to do with life." ; Accept it, affirm it, immortalize it. He was a tremendous force. He was the first Black preacher to have a sermon printed in a publication called Best Sermons. " ; Transfigured Moments" ; was the title of the message. Maybe that happened in 1923. HUNTLEY: 1923? SMITH: I think. HUNTLEY: I know that you were involved in a lot of the demonstrations. Can you remember the first time you were involved in a demonstration? And how you felt about demonstration at that point? SMITH: Well, you know, demonstrations were a necessary tool in those days, but for some people it was a great deal of fun. For me it was serious business. Going to jail was no fun for me. HUNTLEY: Do you remember the first time you went to jail? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances? SMITH: I was arrested on 6th Avenue North. Rev. Porter, Rev. King, A. D. King, Rev. Fisher, I was trying to think of the minister' ; s name who pastored the church in Ensley, the AME Zion Church, I think. We were arrested. HUNTLEY: So this is the first time you were arrested? This picture then is the picture that is sent all over the world, right? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: Where the three of you are arrested and, in fact, isn' ; t that the monument that' ; s in the park now? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: Depicting that particular incident? SMITH: I don' ; t know that happened in your meeting where they wanted, they decided to make it generic, but I said something about it. Somebody said to me that history is not generic. HUNTLEY: What do you mean, now this, something happened in a meeting? SMITH: Apparently, it appears that something was resented about our... HUNTLEY: Now, wait. Let me, just for the purpose of the people who are not familiar with what you are suggesting. You are saying the march where the three of you were arrested, you were kneeling, this picture was taken. As a result of that, that picture went all over the world and became a very famous photograph. SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: The mayor, just prior to the refurbishing of Kelly Ingram Park wanted that particular picture placed in statute in the park, and it is there, but you said that is generic. So what makes it generic. SMITH: That' ; s what we were told. HUNTLEY: Aren' ; t you and Rev. King and Rev. Porter depicted in that... SMITH: But it' ; s supposed to be representative. I don' ; t think our names are even mentioned there. HUNTLEY: Well, aren' ; t your likeness there? SMITH: I have to go back and look at it because they sent me my head. Your pastor had the original sculpture. They sent him that. HUNTLEY: His head? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: And they sent you your head? SMITH: Yes. And they were making the other sculpture out here generic. HUNTLEY: Meaning that it represented everybody. So, in other words, it' ; s not historically accurate? SMITH: No. HUNTLEY: Why was that done? SMITH: I don' ; t know. I don' ; t know more than the rumor mills and this kind of thing. But... HUNTLEY: But we do know that, that in fact, it did depict the three of you. You should really be there. Your head should not be in your office, it should be on your body at Kelly Ingram Park? SMITH: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: That then being the first time that you were arrested, how long did you remain in jail? SMITH: Oh, I guess, maybe 36 hours. I mean it was exciting at first. HUNTLEY: Why was it exciting at first? SMITH: Well, you know, everybody was caught up in the moment. The eyes of the whole world was on Birmingham. This was Palm Sunday in 1963. I had not been arrested before. I avoided being arrested. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide that this time that you would be arrested? SMITH: Well, it was something that we talked about. A. D. and I would talk about it. Rev. Porter and I would talk about it and we said, okay, we' ; re going to do it. And, we did. HUNTLEY: So you actually led a contingent. So was everyone arrested or were just some? SMITH: Everybody with our group. Ms. Katy Jefferson was in our group. Mrs. Pinkie Franklin was in our group. I think some of Deacon Givner' ; s children was a deacon in our church, they were part of this group. HUNTLEY: What were the conditions like in jail? SMITH: Well, you know, it was clean. HUNTLEY: How was the food? SMITH: Well, compared to... HUNTLEY: Compared to momma' ; s cooking? SMITH: Well, they give you plenty of Bama Jelly, that' ; s one thing you had plenty of. They would get you up like 3:00 in the morning and see to it that the place was disinfected. They would disinfect the place. It was rather interesting. And, then after a while you can' ; t believe. I guess that claustrophobia would start working on you and so somebody was there at the jail and asked for me. So I just told them, I said, well, although it was supposed to work out differently, I just told somebody to tell one of my members to come get me out. HUNTLEY: So did you leave before Rev. Porter? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you left Rev. Porter? How did he feel? SMITH: I think King, I think A. D. left before we did. HUNTLEY: Is that right? SMITH: Yes. He went on to the mass meeting. It was a big joke about it. I think Dr. King was telling everybody about these three ministers were over there in jail and this kind of thing and A. D. walked in the mass meeting. Because you know, most people who went to jail committed themselves to stay five days. HUNTLEY: Were you arrested at any other time? SMITH: The following Sunday from Thurgood Church. That was Easter Sunday. HUNTLEY: Right. SMITH: He was arrested Good Friday. So the same three. And I think maybe Rev. Lindsey who pastored Thurgood Church. HUNTLEY: Well, in terms of the way that the demonstrations were acted out, we know that Bull Conner played a prominent role, some say even in the success of the Movement because of the way in which he responded to the demonstrations. SMITH: I would say so. HUNTLEY: Would you kind of elaborate on that? SMITH: I think his attitude made us more determined. Whereas the Chief of Police in Albany, Georgia was much more, you know, he would just arrest everybody. And, Albany had maybe the largest number of arrests up until the time of Birmingham, maybe 1600 or 2000. But he would just arrest him. Well, when we got here, well, the Sunday that we went, on Palm Sunday, I remember Bull Conner was directing everything. And I remember him crying out " ; There' ; s Smith." ; Well, see, he had not been able, I hadn' ; t been arrested before that time. HUNTLEY: But he knew you? SMITH: Yes. Because all of the, he knew that I was a part of everything. He' ; d arrested Pfeiffer, he' ; d arrested Rev. Shuttlesworth. He had arrested several people. HUNTLEY: He had arrested all of the officers probably with the exception of a few? SMITH: I don' ; t think all of the officers, but like, the bus riders. I think that happened in 1958. HUNTLEY: Right. SMITH: Where they were arrested. And I think there was something that had to do with an appeal once where Rev. Shuttlesworth and Rev. Pfeiffer had to stay in jail, maybe 35 days. But anyway,...HUNTLEY: You had made a conscious decision though that or the Movement had made a conscious decision that you would not be arrested at that particular time? SMITH: No. No. Dr. King had always said, an individual, you know there was some people who would try to make you feel ashamed if you had not gone to jail. It was sort of a badge. HUNTLEY: A badge of honor? SMITH: Yes. But he said, I don' ; t want anybody to go to jail unless they make up their minds to go to jail. So, by and large, I made up my mind to go to jail. HUNTLEY: During those days of planning, what was the typical day like, during say between April and May of 1963, planning for this confrontation? SMITH: Well, we met in room 30 at A. G. Gaston Motel. It was a matter of strategizing. We still would go, well, I remember during that period sometime you' ; re talking about you may have four churches in the city with a mass meeting going at the same time and Dr. King would have to go to all these. And we would ask for more people just like calling for sinners to come to the Lord to get ready to go to jail. And there were those who came forward and those who came forward, they were taken into a room and they would talk about non-violence. If you got a knife, you got to give that up. And there were those who said they could not afford to be arrested because they weren' ; t non-violent and, if the man would rough them up, you know. HUNTLEY: Late April, early May, there were times when there were not really a lot of people involved. SMITH: Well, it built up. See we started, it must have been April 3, 1963. And for six weeks or more. We had children crying to go to jail. HUNTLEY: Right. But prior to using the children or getting the children involved, there was some... (inaudible) Young, and Dorothy Cotton and others, talked about why not utilize the children, because as you said, children, they were ranting and raving to get involved. SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: And, then they started to go out to the schools? SMITH: Yes. Well, during this period, along with Andrew Young and I forgot now, who else, we would meet at the Church of the Advent on 28th Street in a kind of negotiating session. See all the negotiations did not take place at John Drew' ; s house. Some took place at The Church of the Advent. I' ; m trying to think of his name, who headed the Birmingham Realty Company, what was his name? HUNTLEY: Sid Smyer(inaudible) SMITH: Yes, yes. Because I know that we met there once and he used the term " ; We' ; re not going to become your social secretary or something like that. I think Bishop, the Bishop George Murray, I think he was, and I think maybe Bishop Carpenter, but Andrew. Because I remember Andrew and I were talking one day. And I said this to Andrew and I meant it. I got the feeling some days that some people had no problem if the demonstrations went on forever. It was fun to them. To a lot of people. HUNTLEY: Were these people that were closely associated with King? Or generally people (inaudible) SMITH: I mean people who came to the Movement. I mean it was fun, you know, for them. And, then, you know they started talking about maybe branching out. I think some people did seek to integrate churches and I have met some White people who said they were a part of the contingent group that see to it that Blacks did not... HUNTLEY: Were you ever a part of those contingencies that went to White churches? SMITH: No. HUNTLEY: What' ; s your most vivid memory of that particular period? SMITH: Well, I guess, well, there were so many. But, I guess it was the night that they bombed Rev. King' ; s home in Ensley and A. G. Gaston Motel. And, how we stayed up all night long trying to keep people from rioting any more. It was on a Saturday night and it was, I think Wyatt Walker, his wife, the Woods brothers, Bernard Lee, A. D. King. Because we heard the bomb go off at the motel. HUNTLEY: Where were you when the bomb went off? SMITH: When the bomb went off at A. D.' ; s house, I was having something to eat at Gaston' ; s restaurant. So, somebody said they had just bombed Rev. King' ; s house. So immediately I went to his house. And when I got out there, there was an angry crowd of Black folk. Fire trucks was there and policemen and all. Then while standing, looking, we heard the bomb go off. Somebody immediately said it was the motel. So then, we come back to the motel. And, when we get back to the motel, all hell had broken loose. HUNTLEY: What was the scene like? SMITH: Cars were overturned. Some cabs I think were burning. So we sought to quiet them down. The troopers were basically stationed I think on 17th Street, I think. And, they didn' ; t join the fray until after we had quieted them down. Because I remember Mr. Lingo himself when we got everybody sort of quiet and we was coming, I was coming back, up 15th Street back to the motel. I remember him grabbing me. I had on a sport shirt and he grabbed me and stuck a Carbine under my neck and he came out with this, what is it... HUNTLEY: Expletives? SMITH: Yes. These expletives. And, how he' ; d blow my head off. And that was a Birmingham policeman trying to arrest me. I didn' ; t know who he was. He just said, " ; These men have been out here all night (inaudible)." ; Because at one point there was a house on 15th Street that was burning and we made a wall of our bodies, joined hands, that the fire truck could get in because they didn' ; t let anybody in. That little, what is that little tank, that tank would only set people off. And a lot of times... HUNTLEY: This is the tank that Bull Conner rode in? SMITH: Yes. So we made walls with our bodies so that the fire truck could come in. I remember Captain Haley was struck that night with a brick. HUNTLEY: (inaudible) police force? SMITH: Yes. Captain Lee was out there also. It was a terrible night. HUNTLEY: Was this the worst that you had seen in Birmingham during the struggle as far as violence was concerned? SMITH: I guess there was equal violence, equal to non-violence on September the 15th. HUNTLEY: When the 16th Street Church was bombed? SMITH: Yes. Because, see, I got hit at, when Shores' ; house was bombed the first time, in my leg. And,... HUNTLEY: What do you mean you " ; got hit?" ; SMITH: Well, it was a, I was shot in my leg. And, you couldn' ; t tell at first until, then you saw the swelling and when I got to the hospital... HUNTLEY: You were at Shores' ; house? SMITH: Yes. We were out there. Trying to get people quieted down. So when Rev. King' ; s voice, A. D. King, when his voice, you know, (inaudible) he say, " ; Hey man, come on, let' ; s talk to these people." ; So I went to step on a car. Well, the policemen were around the car. So I was going to get up on the car and talk. And just as I got ready to get up there, I felt this sting on my leg. And, I went to emergency at the University later on the next day. Because I, you know, it was just bothering me. And, Dr. Hamilton finally, I mean he couldn' ; t... HUNTLEY: Was the bullet lodged in your leg? SMITH: No. No. No. It hit and it chipped the bone. HUNTLEY: But it didn' ; t lodge itself? SMITH: No. No. No. So, finally the following day, Dr. Hamilton, they took me to Holy Family and he, it was really sore then. He had to irrigate it and it was, he couldn' ; t deaden around the place because, I just had to grin and bear it. HUNTLEY: So each time there was a disturbance, then some of you attempted to control the crowd. SMITH: We would always, and even when his house was bombed a few weeks later, I was back up there on crutches. HUNTLEY: A. D. King' ; s? SMITH: No. No. No. Mr. Shores. HUNTLEY: Shores? SMITH: They bombed his house twice, within weeks. And, I went up there and the guy that I rode up there with, when they got to shooting in those trees... HUNTLEY: Who' ; s shooting in the trees? SMITH: I' ; d guess it was the policemen or somebody. Everybody scattered that night. Somebody was killed. This was the second bombing. HUNTLEY: Somebody was killed? SMITH: In that second bombing. HUNTLEY: In the bombing? In the house? SMITH: No. No. No. Who had gathered. You see, crowds would always gather. HUNTLEY: Right. SMITH: And, so, crowds gathered that night. Well, this fellow got out of the car. I said, " ; Well, I can' ; t move fast, maybe I' ; ll stay here." ; So I was sitting in the car and, then when everybody started running I could hear those bullets. Everybody started running. Whatever that street is right down from his house. Whatever that street is, the car was headed east. When I heard all of the running, I got down on the floor of the car. And I stayed down for maybe a couple of hours. HUNTLEY: A couple of hours? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: You mean there was something going on for a couple of hours? SMITH: Oh, yes. Man, this hill was covered. HUNTLEY: With? SMITH: Policemen and people. HUNTLEY: Was there any physical confrontation between them? The police and-- SMITH: Well, in some instances, but I wasn' ; t on Center Street. HUNTLEY: You were off the street? SMITH: I was on the Avenue. SMITH: And, you know, I guess they had remembered the time before and, because we worked late into the night that night trying to quiet folks down. But they wanted to mess up whatever White. You know that was the truck route, I think, was what? HUNTLEY: Highway 78 was the truck route. SMITH: Getting to 78. And you come to the Black community, man they would attack, and threw you off the trucks. It was a time that particular night. HUNTLEY: Obviously, you' ; ve had a lot of involvement and you have a lot of information to give about the Movement. Of course we won' ; t have time to hear all of that today, but I just want to ask you, is there any other single thing that we have not covered that you would just like to add to this tape? SMITH: Well, and I' ; m partly to blame. The Birmingham story has not been told. You' ; ve had people to come here, want to talk to people, but to me, the real history of this city, during this period cannot be told by somebody interviewing somebody. The real history had to be told by people who lived here, who felt the tensions of the times, who, someone who knows the meaning of segregation at it' ; s worst. Someone who say the day-to-day situation, would be able to connect events and this kind of thing, and to be able to give some in depth insight into the attitude of the people, and the kind of people who were really involved. The real heroes of the Movement have been totally overlooked. It' ; s just, you know, I haven' ; t read anything with any kind of justice. Taylor Branch does a fairly good job. But, to me, you can not deal with history in the distance, you know. History has to be sort of like, I guess this thing that Michael Jackson is talking about, " ; His Story." ; And, to me, this is the only way for it to be done. I think in the Birmingham situation, you need a group to work on the Birmingham story. Lola Hendricks, Georgia Price, you know, to name some of those still with us. James Armstrong, the Woods brothers. You know, to sit down and what one may forget, the other would remember and so that this real, this story can be told. Because Birmingham to me is still a unique place. At that point in time or when Birmingham started it was 1871, you know, people could come to this place, you know, two railroads crossed. And, coal and steel mills and iron ore and this kind of stuff. And people left the country in droves and came to Birmingham. And, you didn' ; t have to have brains, mainly brawn. And, people, started making this good money and it' ; s been in the later years that Birmingham started taking on some sophistication and this kind of thing. But, it' ; s unique and someone, a group of persons. To me, no one person and having been secretary, I just should have kept a day-to-day diary and I didn' ; t. HUNTLEY: Do you have records that you' ; ve kept? SMITH: Well, well, you know, they was talking about getting an injunction against the organization. So,...HUNTLEY: Who was talking about getting an injunction? SMITH: The authorities. Do the same thing to the Alabama Christian Movement. You see, they always want to go after your records. So, they came to me and I don' ; t know where most of the records are. And if they would come to me, then I could say this truthfully. Oh, I guess, maybe Rev. Gardner or some of them have the records of those years. I may have in some of my papers. I may have some notes. HUNTLEY: Well, we are hopeful that this the beginning of doing exactly what you are suggesting because what we are doing is talking to people like yourself and others who were involved and getting their parts of the story. And, hopefully, we will be able to piece some things together eventually. So, we' ; ll need some more assistance from you, of course. Thank you very much for taking your time out today. SMITH: Okay. HUNTLEY: I' ; d like to do it again. SMITH: All right. Good. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=NHSmith1995.xml NHSmith1995.xml
Dublin Core
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Title
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Rev. N. H. Smith
Description
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Rev. N. H. Smith discusses being a charter member of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights, and later serving as secretary. He was an active demonstrator, including marching with Dr. King and Rev. Porter.
Identifier
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19950726S
Subject
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights
Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996
Date
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1995-07-26
Format
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video