3 20 102 https://bcriohp.org/files/original/4290c29d52ad714bfd1b1ea7b061d271.jpg 4ed9147accce8fc52ecd0119112df2e7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Harvey Henley OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=HHenley1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. African American labor leaders OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 June 21, 1995 Harvey Henley 19950621H 0:54:46 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Emily Reynolds Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Labor unions--United States--History--20th century United States. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. EEOC order African American labor leaders Harvey Henley Horace Huntley Video 1:|19(4)|46(6)|74(12)|96(6)|111(11)|138(6)|160(7)|180(9)|196(8)|219(3)|239(13)|255(16)|268(10)|302(4)|311(13)|321(6)|334(2)|345(5)|373(1)|386(14)|397(3)|415(2)|443(5)|452(12)|463(4)|472(7)|486(5)|500(9)|515(8)|525(8)|540(10)|557(7)|581(4)|599(9)|610(3)|622(1)|635(2)|648(11)|669(10)|680(2)|692(3)|713(2)|732(11)|744(12)|756(15)|777(6)|785(3)|799(6)|810(8)|825(7)|835(4)|850(5)|861(1)|875(1) 0 https://youtu.be/VVeQUmeuOxg YouTube video English 0 Interview Introduction This is an interview with Mr. Harvey Henley for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 21, 1995. Introduction to interview with Harvey Henley. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 34 Family and Childhood I just want to start by asking some rather general questions about your family. Tell me, where were your parents from? Mr. Henley describes his family and shares about his parents' jobs and educational history. African American families ; African Americans--Education ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Coal mines and mining--United States African Americans--Southern States 159 Education at Segregated High School What school did you attend? Mr. Henley describes how, due to segregation, he attended a high school for Black students instead of nearby high schools for white students. African Americans--Education--Southern States ; Segregation in education--Law and legislation--United States ; Segregation in education--Law and legislation--United States--History Segregation in education--United States 270 Community in Johns, Alabama Can you describe your community that you lived? What was Johns like? Mr. Henley describes his experience growing up in his community in Johns, Alabama, a coal mining and saw mill town. African American coal miners ; Coal mines and mining--Alabama ; Johns, Ala. African Americans--Segregation ; Coal mines and mining--Alabama 429 Westfield High School Experience And when did you -- did you move to Birmingham after you finished high school in Johns? Mr. Henley describes his experience attending Westfield High School in Birmingham, Alabama. African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Clemon, U. W., 1943- ; Westfield High School African Americans--Education (Secondary) 554 Community Relationship with Law Enforcement What was your community's relationship to law enforcement agencies, in the Johns community? Mr. Henley shares that his town of Johns, Alabama had one police officer, and describes his experiences with the law enforcement officer. Johns, Ala. Law enforcement--United States 700 The Ku Klux Klan in the Johns Community That community being so distant from the city, did you ever have any difficulty with the Klan? Mr. Henley describes the presence of the Ku Klux Klan in his hometown of Johns, Alabama. Hate groups--United States ; Lucy, Autherine, 1930- ; Race discrimination--United States Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) 798 Military Service After you finished high school in Westfield, what did you do? Mr. Henley briefly shares information about his time in the Army. Fort Bragg (N.C.) ; Fort Jackson (Columbia, S.C.) African American soldiers ; Army 832 Return to Alabama after Military Service By that time, the Alabama Christian Movement had been very active for two or three years. How and why did you became involved in the Civil Rights Movement? Mr. Henley describes returning to Alabama after his time in the Army, and shares an experience he had while riding a segregated bus. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement ; Segregation in transportation--United States Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Army 1112 Alabama Christian Movement: Meetings and Voter Registration So you started attending mass meetings on a regular basis? Mr. Henley describes attending meetings of the Alabama Christian Movement, his work on voter registration efforts, and his own experience registering to vote. African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; African Americans--Religion ; Mass Meetings ; Poll tax--Law and legislation Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Voter registration 1373 Work on Civil Rights Labor Movement Your activity in the movement -- you played a specific role -- what was your specific role? Mr. Henley discusses his work with the labor movement within the Civil Rights Movement, and his experience attending demonstrations. African American labor leaders ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; American Cast Iron Pipe Company ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Labor movement--United States--History--20th century Discrimination in employment--Law and legislation--United States 1879 Family/Community Response to Movement Did others in your family participate? Mr. Henley describes how his family, spouse, and church community responded to the Civil Rights Movement and his involvement in its efforts. African American families ; African Americans--Religion ; First Baptist Church of Powderly African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century 2014 Civil Rights Labor Movement Work So your activity then, although you were involved in a number of the demonstrations, your thrust was to see some changes where labor was concerned? Mr. Henley discusses workplace discrimination and his work as Executive Secretary of the EEOC. African American labor leaders ; American Cast Iron Pipe Company ; Carmichael, Stokely ; Segregation--United States ; United States. Civil Rights Act of 1964 ; Young, Andrew, 1932- Discrimination in employment ; Discrimination in employment--Law and legislation--United States ; United States. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. EEOC order 2593 Union Organization Efforts Well, since there was never an organized labor organization in the company, were there ever efforts to organize? Were there unions that came in to organize workers at this particular time? Mr. Henley discusses his participation in labor union campaigns. African American labor leaders American Cast Iron Pipe Company ; Labor unions--United States--History--20th century 2754 Reflections on the Movement and Addressing Worker Rights So you would then say -- see, there's been some criticism in the Movement saying that the Movement ignored workers. Would you suggest that that was not the case and that the Movement was actively involved with workers as well? Mr. Henley shares his thoughts on the relationship between the labor movement and the Civil Rights Movement. African American labor leaders ; African Americans--Employment--Law and legislation Labor movement 2955 Reflections on the Birmingham Movement What is your assessment of the Birmingham Movement? How successful was it? Mr. Henley reflects on the impact of the Civil Rights Movement. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Race discrimination--United States--History ; Social justice--United States African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights 3215 Interview Conclusion Well, I really want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule. Obviously, what we are doing is trying to develop this for the Civil Rights Institute and if you have any items that are related to the Movement or the development of Birmingham that you would like to donate, please feel free to get in touch with us. Interview Conclusion Oral History Harvey Henley discusses leading the Civil Rights Labor Movement to promote equal employment, including serving at Executive Secretary of the EEOC. He also worked with unionizing efforts in Birmingham like those of ACIPCO. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mr. Harvey Henley for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 21, 1995. Thank you Mr. Henley for coming out and sitting with us today. HENLEY: Thank you. I&#039 ; m glad to be here. HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking some rather general questions about your family. Tell me, where were your parents from? HENLEY: They were originally from a place called Enondale, Mississippi. HUNTLEY: Where is that located? HENLEY: That is located to the south of Lauderdale, Mississippi which is to the south of Meridian, Mississippi. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Mississippi? HENLEY: I was born there. HUNTLEY: How old were you when you came to Alabama? HENLEY: When my father moved to Alabama I was three years old. HUNTLEY: So, really Birmingham is what you know most about? HENLEY: Birmingham and Johns, Alabama. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? HENLEY: It was eight of us. HUNTLEY: And where did you fit? HENLEY: In the middle, the fourth child. HUNTLEY: Just tell me a little about your parents. How much education did they have? HENLEY: My parents perhaps had about an eighth grade education. HUNTLEY: What were their occupations? HENLEY: My mother used to wash and iron clothes for White people. My father, even though it was a coal mining camp that we lived in but he was a lumberjack. He used to cut the props to hold the top of the mine up. HUNTLEY: So he worked for a mining company? HENLEY: Right. HUNTLEY: But he was not a miner? HENLEY: No, he was not a miner. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in as you were growing up? HENLEY: I lived in the Coal Mining camp called Johns, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Where is Johns? HENLEY: Johns, Alabama is about 12 miles below Bessemer. You go through the pipe shop and go down through West Highland and on down to Johns, Alabama. Old Tuscaloosa Highway, Bessemer Road. HUNTLEY: What school did you attend? HENLEY: I attend the Addy Junior High School which was in our community and then I was bused to Westfield High School in the Westfield community. HUNTLEY: How far was that from Johns? HENLEY: It was about a 40 mile trip each day, round trip. HUNTLEY: Forty miles? Were there any schools closer that you could have attended? HENLEY: Oh, yes. There was one about six miles. Oak Grove High School and Hueytown High School which was about 7 or 8 miles. HUNTLEY: Well, why didn&#039 ; t you attend those schools? Did you prefer to go to Westfield? HENLEY: We were forced to go to Westfield because those were White schools. The Oak Grove and Hueytown were White schools. And that was the closest county Black school that was available, Westfield High School. HUNTLEY: So you passed at least two high schools that happened to be White to get to Westfield High School? HENLEY: Yes. HUNTLEY: Westfield was a rather noted high school in the Jefferson County area. HENLEY: Right. I have a lot of praise for Westfield High School simply because the teachers there were concerned and everything and when you left there, you really had a good basic education. You didn&#039 ; t have any problem getting into any college or things like that. And, even now, we have one of the biggest high school reunions of any of the high schools. HUNTLEY: You have alumni all over the country. I&#039 ; ve interviewed people from Parker and Industrial High and each one say their school was the best school, so I&#039 ; m sure you would say the same about Westfield. HENLEY: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Can you describe your community that you lived? What was Johns like? HENLEY: Well, just like any coal mining town -- my community was a little different. My community had sawmill people living there. And sawmill people you had Blacks living on this side and Whites living on this side. In other words, we all played together until we got to a certain age and, then, people started teaching that you got to say, &quot ; mister&quot ; to this sawmill boy or sawmill girl or what have you. HUNTLEY: What do you mean &quot ; sawmill?&quot ; HENLEY: Well, these White people that worked at the sawmill. They had a sawmill there. HUNTLEY: They lived in the community? HENLEY: Yes, the mining community I lived in. And we weren&#039 ; t staying in company housing. Our house belonged to the man that owned the sawmill and that&#039 ; s how my father got the contract with the coal mine, was to cut props for the coal mine. The man allowed him to do that on a sharing basis. HUNTLEY: So the coal mine didn&#039 ; t own the sawmill? HENLEY: No. HUNTLEY: But you lived in the same community? HENLEY: Yes. HUNTLEY: And there were both Blacks and Whites that worked for the sawmill as well? HENLEY: The sawmill and the coal mine. HUNTLEY: Well, how was the community situated? Did you have Blacks and Whites living together? HENLEY: No. Not living together. They were separated with about a block. They were separated like that. We had our own churches, we had our own school. You had a White community school and a Black community school. HUNTLEY: Both had elementary schools? HENLEY: Yes. HUNTLEY: But you had to go out of the community, both Blacks and Whites to go to high school? HENLEY: Right. HUNTLEY: What kind of recreation did you have in the community? HENLEY: Well, the only recreation we had was to swim down in the creek. You played click &#039 ; n wheel, roll a wheel, roll tires, caught a car and all of that kind of stuff. But there was no organized recreation facility at all. HUNTLEY: What company owned the coal mines? HENLEY: Black Diamond Coal Mining Company. HUNTLEY: What about the sawmill? HENLEY: It was Tom Moore Sawmill. HUNTLEY: Did you move to Birmingham after you finished high school in Johns? HENLEY: I finished high school in Westfield and I went out to the armed services? HUNTLEY: But you were still living in Johns? HENLEY: Still living in Johns, yes. HUNTLEY: How would you describe Westfield High School? HENLEY: When I got to Westfield it was a different setting for me. It was the first time I had gone to separate classes and a homeroom. It looked like all the teachers were real serious about what they were doing. You know, when you go into their classroom they had complete discipline and everything. The principal, Mr. Reeves, was one of the best. He was concerned. Whenever we would go on an activity period and things, some of the guys might go up in the woods and smoke or something and Mr. Reeves would come up there and run them out. I mean he would get behind them and catch them. The level of concern and education and everything it was superb. Because you had people like Mr. McCarthy, Ms. Fenoy. You had people that was really concerned and really knew what they were doing. If you wanted to get an education, you could get it. HUNTLEY: And they were concerned about your succeeding? HENLEY: They were. HUNTLEY: In fact, you have had a lot of folk from Westfield to have gone on to -- HENLEY: Right. Judge U. W. Clemmons, Dr. Arrington. HUNTLEY: Arrington went to Westfield? HENLEY: No. No. He went to Miles College. HUNTLEY: Yes. He went to Fairfield. HENLEY: But Judge U. W. Clemmons, he was a graduate of Westfield High School. HUNTLEY: What was your community&#039 ; s relationship to law enforcement agencies, the Johns community? HENLEY: We had a little one horse town. We had one light. We had one police and we called him Gun Rust. HUNTLEY: Gun Rust? HENLEY: Yes. Because he wore a pistol. I think it reached all the way down to his ankle and it was rusty and he had a &#039 ; 47 Plymouth. HUNTLEY: Did he ever arrest anybody? HENLEY: He&#039 ; d try but the guys, they got these cars and they were so fast, they would always lead him on out of town. They would forget when I had moved to Birmingham and I went back down there and I had a &#039 ; 56 Ford. And he got behind me and boy I led him out of town. So he went over to the house and told my father, he say, &quot ; Harvey Lee, that boy of yours coming down here running over our town. Next time he come down, you bring him over here.&quot ; HUNTLEY: So, did your father take you over the next time? HENLEY: He tried. HUNTLEY: He did, but you weren&#039 ; t ready to go? HENLEY: No. HUNTLEY: Do you ever remember any difficult in your community that related to law enforcement agencies? HENLEY: Oh, the only things was that one year Rev. Norwood was preaching revival at one of the churches down there and Rev. Norwood always drove a big long Cadillac car. So Gun Rust come through there and saw that Cadillac car sitting out there so he came in the church and wanted to know what was going on and we were running a revival. But I guess if it had of been Martin King or somebody that he was going to arrest everybody in there. But, anyway, we were running revival and that was good so he didn&#039 ; t say anything about that. But, no, we never had any trouble out of the law. The only thing that the boot leggers down there, they had favoritism. He would let boot legger get by and he would arrest the other ones. So, I think they had some problems. HUNTLEY: Were there Black and White boot leggers? HENLEY: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: That community being so distant from the city, did you ever have any difficulty with the Klan? HENLEY: Yes. We had a lot of it. Because I think that the Klan&#039 ; s object was to terrorize the community. Keep fear in people. And they used to always have these caravans to come through the community. It was 100 cars sometimes with a big cross on the truck and the white sheets and hoods on. I never will forget one night my uncle had just went and bought two chickens. You know, you used to buy chickens on Saturday for the cook Sunday. And he was coming back and he saw those cars coming down the road and there was a bridge there. So he got up on that bridge and jumped in that water and the chicken went one way and he went the other way. But that shows you the amount of terrorism that they were doing. HUNTLEY: What were the occasions? Did they just decide to ride through the community? HENLEY: Well, when the headlines come out in the paper about the Arthurine Lucy is attending the University of Alabama and headlines such as Supreme Court making a decision on integrating schools and everything, then they start that demonstration. HUNTLEY: So this was basically for the purpose of retaining control and maintaining control over the Black population, I assume? HENLEY: Right. It sort of says, it&#039 ; s not going to happen here. HUNTLEY: After you finished high school in Westfield, what did you do? HENLEY: I went to the army. HUNTLEY: Where did you go? HENLEY: I went to Fort Jackson, South Carolina. And I went to Fort Bragg and then to Fort Bennett. HUNTLEY: Did you volunteer or were you drafted? HENLEY: I volunteered. HUNTLEY: So you never did get outside of the country? HENLEY: No. I wanted to, but I never did get outside of the country. HUNTLEY: And you were there for two years? HENLEY: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you returned to Birmingham in 1959, I believe? HENLEY: 1959. HUNTLEY: By that time, the Alabama Christian Movement had been very active for two or three years. How and why did you became involved in the Civil Rights Movement? HENLEY: Well, the first thing that made me get concerned about it was because when I first got out of the army in Georgia and this captain that gave us this little talk before we got out, he was telling us about &quot ; You people from the south, you don&#039 ; t have to go to the other side of fence again.&quot ; And I realized what he was talking about. But when I got back to Alabama-- I think in &#039 ; 58 they have moved the signs on the bus that said Black and White, but they still had up in the front, Black seats from back to front and White seats from front to back. And I was commuting from Johns to Birmingham and I got on the bus one day, the 45, I paid my money in the front and Blacks were already standing from the back to the front. So I went on and got in the front door. And I was standing about half-way in the bus and this White soldier, he appeared to be a National Guard person. But, anyway, he kept motioning for me to go to the back. HUNTLEY: This was before you got on the bus or were you on the bus? HENLEY: I was on the bus. I was standing up in front of two White women and he was sitting down. And he was motioning me to go to the back. I thought he was going to give me a seat, but what happened, he got up and went and told the bus driver and I heard him, he say, &quot ; You got a nigger up here in the front, don&#039 ; t know where he&#039 ; s supposed to be.&quot ; Then the bus driver started looking through the mirror and he started pointing back to the back. So I didn&#039 ; t move. I said, &quot ; It&#039 ; s no room back there, I can&#039 ; t get back there.&quot ; So he stopped the bus, and he said, &quot ; You got to go back there now.&quot ; I said, &quot ; No, there&#039 ; s no room. I paid my money and there&#039 ; s no room for me to get back there and two or three Black women told me, &quot ; Son, go on back there, go on back there.&quot ; So when they said that, I said, &quot ; No, I&#039 ; ll just get off the bus.&quot ; So I got off the bus and walked to Roosevelt City. At that time I had an aunt there so I went there and they took me home. But that one incident started me thinking about what they were doing in Birmingham with the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights because these were the things they were meeting about at the mass meeting and everything. So I decided I would go to one of the mass meetings. And I felt good about what I was hearing and the people looked like they were really ready to do something. And, what that did, was gave me the opportunity to get information from these meetings and I would go back to Johns and tell the people what was going on and what we need to do down here. Because you had limited success in getting people to participate in anything in a little town that I come from, because they always thought that the Lord was going to change things. And, I mean, they had legitimate feelings and everything but it was very few progressive enough to understand really what was being said. You had a few old people down there that got involved in the voter registration education thing. But as far as attending mass meetings from Johns, Alabama, very few people did that. But I did start attending the mass meetings. HUNTLEY: Were you living in Johns at that time? HENLEY: Yes. HUNTLEY: And what year did you move to Birmingham? HENLEY: I moved to Birmingham in 1960. HUNTLEY: So you were there for a few months after you got out of the service? HENLEY: Right. HUNTLEY: What community did you move to? HENLEY: I moved to Powderly. HUNTLEY: So you started attending mass meetings on a regular basis? HENLEY: Right. HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what a typical mass meeting was like? HENLEY: First, it was like going to church. You go and you would have prayer and singing. And, then, you would have information sharing, people who had gather information about what was going on, what we need to do and all these things was what was happening. You had people that was well versed in all these areas. They would have 3 or 4 speak a night and then you would have a main speaker that would speak and people would be enthusiastic and they were getting fired up. HUNTLEY: At that time were you a registered voter? HENLEY: No. The first two or three meetings I was not a registered voter. HUNTLEY: Was that one of the activities that was discussed? HENLEY: That was one of the things that was stressed. They were talking about if you weren&#039 ; t qualified to vote, where you could go to get the training that you need to qualify and my area was Bessemer. Asbury Howard, Sr. and his son, they ran the voter education campaign in Bessemer. I went and got some of the information that they had and a lot of it was just stuff that you would learn in high school about the Constitution and stuff like that. Then you would have to pay your poll tax. But the first time I went to register, I qualified to vote. I was qualified, but there was one trick question that the last guy that examined you, you had to go to two different rooms. You would take your written test then you would have an oral examination by some specialist. So he asked me who was the mayor of the town that I was born in. And that was 21 years ago. I left Mississippi when I was three years old. So I said, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t know.&quot ; &quot ; You mean to tell me you don&#039 ; t know the name of the mayor of the town that you&#039 ; re in?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I really don&#039 ; t. As a matter of fact, I don&#039 ; t know whether they even had a mayor or not.&quot ; &quot ; Oh, every town got a mayor.&quot ; So I said, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t think they had one.&quot ; &quot ; Well, if you don&#039 ; t know the mayor of your town, that&#039 ; s your civic duty, you can&#039 ; t vote, you can&#039 ; t register to vote.&quot ; HUNTLEY: What were your feelings after he disallowed your application to become a registered voter? HENLEY: My feeling was that it was just a scheme to keep me from voting. I didn&#039 ; t think that he really wanted me to be registered to vote. I thought that this was a Federal observer. I felt real good when I sat down in front of him. He had black hair, and he was red, and I thought that maybe this guy, he&#039 ; s alright. I&#039 ; m fixing to qualify here. But, he turned me down. HUNTLEY: Why would you think he was a federal man because he had black hair and was red? HENLEY: He had black hair and look kind of like a jew or something. HUNTLEY: Oh. So you figured he was not southern? HENLEY: Yes. He didn&#039 ; t look southern. HUNTLEY: So then you were turned down that time? HENLEY: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you go back a second time? HENLEY: The second time I went back there was a lady that asked me the final question. And she asked me &quot ; Why did he turn you down the last time?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, I failed to give some information about my home town and I was three years old when I left there.&quot ; She said, &quot ; What was the question?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, he wanted to know the name of the mayor of Enondale, Mississippi.&quot ; She said, &quot ; He shouldn&#039 ; t have turned you down for that.&quot ; And she checked it off and gave me my certificate and I was registered to vote. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s Enondale? HENLEY: Enondale, Mississippi. HUNTLEY: So you then became a registered voter? HENLEY: Yes. HUNTLEY: What was your specific role in the Movement? HENLEY: Well, really, at the time I had gone to work out at ACIPICO too. I really was concerned about the labor aspect of the Movement. Because these other things like the buses and the department stores and everything, they had elderly people that would picket the stores and things like that. But, the place that I worked, we had a real problem out there about discrimination, too. And anything that you did out there at the time was a bold move because the people were afraid, too. They was afraid of the job and everything. So, even if you went to a meeting, you know, these mass meetings, the company I worked for would have people to go to those meetings and come back and tell them who was at those meetings. So anything anybody did out there it was real bold. HUNTLEY: Were you ever approached by supervisors as a result of your attending meetings? HENLEY: Yes. One day somebody had told the supervisor that I was at the meeting. I think it was a meeting when Dr. King had been jailed and somebody saw me at one of the support rallies for Dr. King. And the superintendent said, &quot ; Harvey, you involved in that mess going on down in Birmingham?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m not directly involved, I&#039 ; m an observer. I go and see everything.&quot ; &quot ; Well, Harvey, we don&#039 ; t need that kind of stuff. You to good a man to be tied up in something like that.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I appreciate your comments and I appreciate you feeling that way about me and everything, but it&#039 ; s just something that I want to go and observe.&quot ; &quot ; Well, you just keep on going and observing.&quot ; And he left it like that. The Movement had all kind of people in it. You had different political perspectives and things like that. And everybody that is not a person that goes to church and all that kind of stuff, he&#039 ; s a communist. So that&#039 ; s what my work manager told me, he said, &quot ; Harvey, you too good a man to be tied up in that old communist stuff like that.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, I don&#039 ; t know the difference between a communist and you.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m out here with you every day and this world that we live in you got all kinds of people in it. I associate with all kinds of people. Now, whether you think I&#039 ; m being influenced by somebody, I can think you being influenced by something.&quot ; And, he got mad, he said, &quot ; Well, I tell you what, you take care of your people, I&#039 ; m going to take care of mine.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, that&#039 ; s good. I don&#039 ; t have no problem with that at all. But don&#039 ; t have no problem with me associating with people. I know how to go in and out and take care of myself.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Were you ever reprimanded or anything for being in attendance at the meetings? HENLEY: Well, I was warned about passing out the leaflets in the shop. HUNTLEY: Didn&#039 ; t you collect money from people that worked out at ACIPICO for the Movement? HENLEY: Me and Davis Jordan and Edward Hicks, we would ask the guys for a contribution and we would get it to the Alabama Christian Movement. HUNTLEY: What did your employer think of your doing that on the job? HENLEY: Well, they didn&#039 ; t know it. If they had known it, if they had ever saw me solicit, that would have been a reason to fire me. HUNTLEY: What kind of activities were you involved in? What demonstrations were you involved in? HENLEY: I was involved in the demonstration when we were demonstrating for the change in government, we went to the city hall. I was involved when Dr. King came to L. R. Hall, he was doing a speech there. And I was there when this White guy wanted to shake his hand and instead of shaking his hand, he slapped him. HUNTLEY: What happened when that took place? HENLEY: There were some of the guys grabbed the guy. The police grabbed him and when the police grabbed him, I think Dr. King said, &quot ; Leave him alone.&quot ; He went to him and told him that he loved him and all that. But Dr. King didn&#039 ; t want him arrested or anything like that. HUNTLEY: How did the audience react? HENLEY: Oh, they were ready to jump the guy. But Dr. King he cooled them down. HUNTLEY: Were you on the march I believe it was Palm Sunday? HENLEY: No. I didn&#039 ; t get arrested in that march. But I was there. When you did a march like that, you just about knew who was going to get arrested. People had already asked us could you afford to get arrested or whatever. If you worked at these shops and factories and everything and you had a family, you probably weren&#039 ; t going to get arrested. But you would do anything else that you could do. That was my position. HUNTLEY: Well, did your company, American Cast Iron and Pipe, did they have any particular method that they would utilize if someone was arrested and you missed time off work? HENLEY: Yes. If you were arrested, the method was the jailer would keep you in jail for three days. If they found a way to keep you in jail for three days you are automatically fired. But, if they didn&#039 ; t keep you in jail, when you come back, you would get a reprimand, the first offense was two weeks off. HUNTLEY: If you missed a day from work? HENLEY: No. They called that defiance of the law. Demonstrating was defying the law. If anybody got arrested in a demonstration then they called that defiance of the law. And that rule, the first offense was two weeks off and if you did it again, you were discharged. HUNTLEY: So even if you demonstrated and were not arrested? HENLEY: And was not arrested it was still -- the demonstration itself they would say it was defiance of the law because somebody did get arrested. HUNTLEY: But you were involved in several demonstrations and you were never brought before the authorities? HENLEY: Never brought before a discipline committee. HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate? HENLEY: No. I was the most progressive one in my family. I had a brother, he had died when he was 30 years old. He had gone to school and he was a civil engineer and he come back a Muslim. I mean he just didn&#039 ; t like White folks at all. But as far as political stuff, I was the most progressive one. HUNTLEY: Were you married at the time? HENLEY: I got married in 1963 I believe it was. HUNTLEY: Was your wife involved in the Movement? HENLEY: No. I was always gone and she didn&#039 ; t say a thing about me leaving or whatever I had to do. She supported me in that. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of? HENLEY: At the time in Johns I was a member of Mt. Herman Baptist Church. When I come to Powderly I joined the First Baptist Church of Powderly and I subsequently I moved to New Pilgrim Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: Was First Baptist involved in the Movement? HENLEY: Yes. Some people in First Baptist was. HUNTLEY: What about the minister? HENLEY: The minister, no. The two ministers that I served under, they weren&#039 ; t involved in it. HUNTLEY: Did you have any mass meetings out at First Baptist? HENLEY: Were they anti-Movement or did they talk against the Movement? HENLEY: No. They didn&#039 ; t talk against it. You had some people in the membership that would say them people ought to let God handle this and all that. But, you didn&#039 ; t have a wholesale resentment to what was going on. People were just afraid. Afraid for people to come into their church because they thought they might bomb it or something. HUNTLEY: So your activity then, although you were involved in a number of the demonstrations, your thrust was to see some changes where labor was concerned? HENLEY: Right. HUNTLEY: What kind of impact did the Movement have upon that area of life, of work life? HENLEY: Well, it had a lot because in 1963 I didn&#039 ; t know anything about the President&#039 ; s Commission on Equal Employment. Before they had the EEOC they had a commission on equal employment and that was an executive order. And I learned all this by attending the mass meeting. They had people there that was telling people their rights as workers and things like that. So I asked some people, we asked Davis Jordan who was the chairman of the Committee for Equal Job Opportunity. We had Peter Wren and all them and we got together and started inquiring about the Commission and what it&#039 ; s job was and everything because we wanted to file some charges. And that&#039 ; s what we did. We started filing written charges against our company because of discrimination. Because at ACIPICO they had Black jobs and White jobs. That is, when I first went there, about the only thing that a Black person could do was to do labor work and the other thing was to be a round man. That&#039 ; s to round the mold. That&#039 ; s the thing that they shake you to death. And that was the highest paying job you could get. I don&#039 ; t care what it was driving a pay load or whatever, they had Black jobs and White jobs and they made assignments that way. So, we started filing charges and started getting these investigators to come in. We got an investigation to come in and they checked out our complaint. And we thought we were going to get some relief there. But, these government agencies, and I have dealt with all of them, they give you the run around. I mean, they started early on, come at 9:00, doing an investigation, come back and writing you telling you what they have done and everything and they don&#039 ; t do anything else. But we kept writing those letters until finally we did get a good investigation. That was in 1963. And, in 1964, they passed a law, the Civil Rights Act of &#039 ; 64 and in it it had what you called a &quot ; Tower Seven&quot ; and that had to do with equal employment. Now, that gave you access to the court. The Commission didn&#039 ; t give you that access. The Commission all you would try to do is get a good faith agreement. But the Civil Rights Act and the Tower Seven gave you access to the court. You can go on up as high as the Supreme Court. So the President came in and he had a meeting with the White employees and had a meeting with Black employees. HUNTLEY: Together? HENLEY: No. He had it separate. And that was wrong. He wasn&#039 ; t supposed to do that. He told the White employees, &quot ; Y&#039 ; all ain&#039 ; t got to worry, ain&#039 ; t nobody going to come here breathing down our backs.&quot ; He said, &quot ; We are going to go on and do things just like we been doing them.&quot ; And in the meantime, these White guys just come in there and get all those jobs, skilled jobs and everything without taking a test or anything. So what happened was that when they saw that we were filing these charges in 1963, they implemented a test, they called it a California Achievement Test for Mental Maturity. It was a college entrance exam, really that&#039 ; s what it was. And, so there was the relief that we got, because most of our people couldn&#039 ; t pass that test. They could do the work and they were doing the work, but they couldn&#039 ; t pass the test. So they couldn&#039 ; t get a higher paying job. At the same time, it got the government off the hook because they said, &quot ; The White people passing this test and you can&#039 ; t pass it, therefore, you don&#039 ; t have no complaint.&quot ; But the White people weren&#039 ; t passing the test. And even when they gave them the test, they took it to the house and schooled them on it and everything. They showed them how to pass tests and all that. HUNTLEY: How do you know that they took it to their houses? HENLEY: Well, because some of the good White folk told us that. HUNTLEY: So did you have an official position in relationship to the EEOC? HENLEY: Yes. I was the Executive Secretary. Our committee was the Committee for Equal Job Opportunity. Now, it&#039 ; s not the EEOC. HUNTLEY: Was this an internal agency? HENLEY: It was a Black caucus at ACIPICO. HUNTLEY: Of employees? HENLEY: Yes. It was unorganized. ACIPICO has always been unorganized. It was a peculiar set up. It&#039 ; s supposed to be a family-owned thing. That is the employees are supposed to own it. And everybody is supposed to have an equal share. We are supposed to get a bonus every three months because of our profit sharing. The man that left the place he was a good guy, apparently. You really need to read his book. But he really had the idea that industry should operate according to the Golden Rule. And some of the older people that I talked with, they say that when he was there, that things were different. He was living a 100 years before his time. But it fell into the hands of these honky&#039 ; s that come out of the woods and just took everything back. So, when I arrived there, it was tough. You couldn&#039 ; t move, there was no upward mobility or anything like that. So we started to filing these charges then in &#039 ; 64. Then we started filing charges with EEOC. HUNTLEY: So the Movement had an impact upon the way that you viewed your position in the workplace? HENLEY: Yes. Because Andy Young used to come and I think it was Stokley Carmichael, all these organizations were trying to recruit people. Stokley Carmichael came and tried to recruit us. If you are working in industry, you really could be supportive of any kind of movement because of factory workers, you call them proletariat. So they would meet with us and talk about labor&#039 ; s untold story and all these things. But then Andy Young came and talked with us and told us that &quot ; Black power is what you all are doing here. You have formed a caucus in this all-White shop.&quot ; HUNTLEY: You mean Andy Young actually came to ACIPICO to come talk with you all? HENLEY: No. He came to Birmingham at the A. G. Gaston Motel. We met down there. HUNTLEY: So you never had a union per se at ACIPICO? HENLEY: No. HUNTLEY: But there was activity going on that related to organization of the Black workers? HENLEY: Exactly. And we were that organization. HUNTLEY: Well, how were you viewed then by your employer? HENLEY: We were viewed as troublemakers. As a matter of fact when the sit-ins were going on downtown, we had a restaurant at ACIPICO. We had a White and Black side. We were sitting in out there too. Those were bold moves. Because we didn&#039 ; t have no union and the only representation you had was that Committee for Equal Job Opportunity. HUNTLEY: What happened as a result of your sitting in out there? HENLEY: As a result of our sitting in and filing charges, they had to tear the wall down. We would go, when you come out of that shop you would be sweating, you would be nasty and everything and you go over to the side and you walk by these people with these suits on and everything and sit down beside them and boy they drop the food. The best demonstration I saw about how they really disliked what we were doing was this big carpenter. I guess he weighed about 300 lbs. He came in there with his hammer one day and stood up at the cash register and that was supposed to scare a lot of people off you know. HUNTLEY: This was a White carpenter? HENLEY: Yes. And the work manager standing up there looking at him. And the fellows came up there and went through that line and brushed by him so fast and almost knocked him down standing there. I mean the fellows were really getting encouraged. The Movement caused that. The Movement caused the people to develop a conscious that it was time for us to do something. I mean people were really shedding all that filth that they had and everything. So it really had an effect, that kind of effect on me. It game me a conscious of what I need to be doing. HUNTLEY: Well, since there was never an organized labor organization in the company, were there ever efforts to organize? Were there unions that came in to organize workers at this particular time? HENLEY: Yes. I participated in at least three union campaigns. But during these campaigns, management had the freedom manipulate money any way that they wanted to manipulate it. Oh, if you are supposed to get a bonus and you hadn&#039 ; t been getting one, they would start giving you one. I remember in 1975 when we had the union campaign going on, we hadn&#039 ; t got a bonus in three years. When they started seeing union cards being passed out around there they started giving a bonus and gave a bonus for three years until it stopped all vestiges of that union campaign. We were successful one time in getting enough cards signed and I believe to win the election. But what the company did, they had about 300 people they call supervisor and they could throw them in there and call them supervisors and supervisors are not supposed to vote. But they allowed them to vote. So that threw the election off. There was an older fellow talking about a union campaign they had and they had gotten it when the CIO was organizing it. They said that they had already gotten the union, wearing the buttons and everything and said the president, at the time, he found out that the Blacks were the ones that was doing the most campaigning and everything to get a union there. So he had a meeting with the Black folks and said that he had a big tub sitting over there with a bunch of bow dollars in it. And he said he had a Black Jesus up on the wall. He said the president come in their crying, saying &quot ; Gentlemen, that man up there died for all of us. We have a good place out here to work in. Now these foreigners are going to come in here and take what we got. I can&#039 ; t let them do it. We can&#039 ; t let them do it.&quot ; And those people started getting a handful of bow dollar and come out there crying. They lost that election. HUNTLEY: Was this prior to you coming out there? HENLEY: Yes. That was prior to me coming out there. HUNTLEY: But he had a plan and a Black Jesus on the wall? HENLEY: Had a Black Jesus on the wall. George Dully could tell you about it, he&#039 ; s dead now, but he could tell you about that better than I can. But they said it actually happened. HUNTLEY: There has been some criticism in the Movement saying that the Movement ignored workers. Would you suggest that that was not the case and that the Movement was actively involved with workers as well? HENLEY: Well, I think that people have to -- and, what you have to do. You have to position yourself to take advantage of this information. And I mean it was a lot of people, very important people to be met at these mass meetings. There were a lot of people that I met that had superior education, better education than I had, but I had more experience with what it was like working in those factories and things out there. And they could give me the expertise that they had of writing letters and everything. As a matter of fact, helping me to put newsletters together and everything. But I think it was a network of things going on in that Movement. HUNTLEY: So you are saying then that the Movement, in effect, did assist workers in what they were doing on their jobs if in fact they were active and attempting to make some changes in their various work areas? HENLEY: Exactly. Now the labor movement itself, the unions always had their separate things. Labor unions couldn&#039 ; t do what we were doing because they were controlled by the national office and everything. We could file charges and we could say things even about the labor movement itself. Because the labor movement during this time was racist too. There was a whole lot of stuff that was going on that we have to challenge and people come to us and want to join our caucus because of their unions. So the labor movement, they could have been involved if they had wanted to be involved, but they wanted to do their own thing. And a lot of cases, that&#039 ; s what happened. They don&#039 ; t want to come in and join you in the overall effort but they want you to support what they do. HUNTLEY: So the Movement itself was not necessarily part of the labor movement but individuals who were associated with the Movement could utilize what they learned in the Movement and actually utilize individuals in the Movement to assist them in accomplishing what they needed to accomplish on their jobs? HENLEY: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: So there was that sort of a relationship that developed in that regard? HENLEY: Yes. HUNTLEY: What is your assessment of the Birmingham Movement? How successful was it? HENLEY: I think that in &#039 ; 63 that was the apex of what the Birmingham Movement was all about. My assessment of it was that it raised the consciousness of a lot of people. A lot of people developed a political conscious, their religion took on a more meaningful thing because they were more faith based and what they were doing as a result of that Movement. People developed courage and developed a feeling that they were heading somewhere and they weren&#039 ; t going to turn back. And that feeling, it went on for a long time. So my assessment is that it was very important. The Movement played a very important role. I think that sometime we have some catching up to do. But for what our foreparents did, people like Martin King, Malcolm X, people like that, not these conservative people who are coming on the scene now, establishing themselves as leaders, but you got to go back and see what your foreparents did. And I think we need to reassess that sometime and see where we got off track at. Because I think that the mass meetings, we need those in some forms now. I don&#039 ; t know how you do that. I was talking to my pastor about it. But we need those mass meetings now. One or two times a week. We need those now. HUNTLEY: Why do you think we need them now? HENLEY: Well, because of this affirmative action thing. We got one of the first affirmative action plans written on paper at ACIPICO. And if you don&#039 ; t have a national government supporting you in your efforts and the issues and the questions that you are raising down here locally, if you don&#039 ; t have the support from the Supreme Court, affirmative action don&#039 ; t mean anything. And it never has meant anything if you don&#039 ; t have no enforcement power, it doesn&#039 ; t mean anything. HUNTLEY: You have been very helpful. I would just like one further question. Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with that&#039 ; s associated with the Movement and labor ; at this point? HENLEY: Well, I just want to -- one thing that I haven&#039 ; t heard too many people talk about. This family on Asberry Highland, but you told me you had interviewed them. And I think those are two very important people that should be interview. Also, I think that thing that we did at ACIPICO I think that needs to happen. And we did start trying to bring Black workers together from all these factories and we come together to have some dialogue about what&#039 ; s going on in the shop. But now, we need even more than that. We need to bring people who have benefitted from the Movement, bring them together also in this dialogue, because they are catching some of the same hell that we caught in our shop from those cooperative people that&#039 ; s gone up the corporate ladder, they&#039 ; re going to have the same problem. And that&#039 ; s why I say we need to go back to what our foreparents did and see how they dealt with these situations. We got to get ourselves closer together because we are similar to the same problem now. I think we are going to reverse or we are going to repeat what we went through with. HUNTLEY: Well, I really want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule. Obviously, what we are doing is trying to develop this for the Civil Rights Institute and if you have any items that are related to the Movement or the development of Birmingham that you would like to donate, please feel free to get in touch with us. HENLEY: I do have. We have some things that we would like the Civil Rights Institute to have. Some of the documents and things that we filed with the different agencies and things. We even got our case in a congressional record during the time when they were having the hearings on the Civil Right Act of &#039 ; 64. So there are some documents that we have that we would like for the Civil Rights Institute to have. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. I appreciate your time. HENLEY: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=HHenley1995.xml HHenley1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Harvey Henley Description An account of the resource Harvey Henley discusses leading the Civil Rights Labor Movement to promote equal employment, including serving at Executive Secretary of the EEOC. He also worked with unionizing efforts in Birmingham like those of ACIPCO. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950621H Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Labor unions--United States--History--20th century United States. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. EEOC order Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-06-21 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/544aa6320e3b1fd9601029fca9564a58.jpg 398c18f99c9f236adc7d41f2fbb99121 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hattie Felder OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=HFelder1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Movement Choir OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 June 2, 1995 Hattie Felder 19950602F 0:32:38 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Movement Choir Hattie Felder Horace Huntley Video 1:|5(9)|37(9)|53(3)|79(2)|93(2)|108(8)|136(11)|156(3)|179(9)|196(7)|215(9)|233(2)|250(4)|267(15)|281(14)|300(14)|319(6)|340(2)|361(13)|381(14)|399(1)|413(13)|433(1)|457(2)|475(6)|494(8)|514(7)|528(10)|539(8)|559(13)|570(11)|590(11) 0 https://youtu.be/e-9D5HFYx6s YouTube video English 43 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Hattie Felder for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Hattie Felder is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 65 Background and Family Life I would just like to start by just asking some sort of general questions. Felder discusses how her father owned the land he farmed and how her mother had formal education. African Americans--Education ; Farmer Dallas County (Ala.) 253 Life in Orrville Community Can you describe what the community of Orrville was like? Felder discusses how she lived beside white people and how she and her siblings helped out on their farm. African American agricultural laborers ; Sharecroppers Dallas County (Ala.) 422 Educational Journey and Moving to Birmingham How would you describe your school, your high school for instance. Felder discusses how she finished school in Birmingham after she became pregnant at a young age. Dallas County (Ala.) ; GED tests Birmingham (Ala.) 627 Involvement with the NAACP Were you involved at all with the NAACP at that time? Felder recalls how the NAACP helped her study to become a registered voter. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Registered voter Birmingham (Ala.) ; Voter registration 732 Involvement in the Alabama Christian Movement Right. Well, in 1956, the State of Alabama outlaws the operation of the NAACP and the Alabama Christian Movement is established? Felder recalls how she knew Reverend Shuttlesworth before she moved to Birmingham and her experience attending mass meetings. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 909 Attending Mass Meetings How would you describe a typical mass meeting? Felder recalls how the mass meetings were like a revival and how the prayers and singing was therapeutic for her. Civil rights movement ; Mass meetings ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 1061 Police Presence at the Mass Meetings Do you remember Birmingham policemen being in the meetings? Felder discusses how one police officer began helping their cause after attending one of the mass meetings. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1210 Arrested at the Easter Sunday Demonstration in '63 Did you participate in any of the demonstrations? Felder recalls how she was arrested and jailed and how the judge for her trial died in the courtroom before her sentencing. Arrest (Police methods) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama Birmingham (Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 1443 Her Family's Participation in the Movement Did others in your family participate? Felder recalls how her sister participated in the movement and how she gained more customers after she was arrested. Civil rights movement ; Miles College Birmingham (Ala.) 1535 Involvement with the Movement Choir Now, you were also associated with the Movement choir, is that correct? Felder discusses her involvement with the Movement Choir and what church she was a member of. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 1609 Benefits the Community Reaped from the Movement What benefits did you, your family, and your community realize as a result of the Movement? Felder discusses the things the movement achieved but also tells how they did not pass the movement on to the younger generation very well. Civil rights movement ; Integration ; Voter registration Birmingham (Ala.) 1770 The Older Generation's Commitment to the Movement Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with that related to the Movement? Felder recalls the commitment of the older generation to achieve equality by telling a story of a sick woman who was in jail with her. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) 1918 Conclusion of Interview Mrs. Felder I certainly thank you for taking the time out and coming and spending this time with us today. Interview is concluded. Oral History Hattie Felder discusses being arrested at the Easter Sunday demonstrations in 1963. She remained active and went on to participate in the Movement Choir. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Hattie Felder for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 2, 1995. Thank you Ms. Felder for coming out and sitting with us today. I certainly do appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule. FELDER: You are welcome. HUNTLEY: I would just like to start by just asking some sort of general questions. Where were your parents from? FELDER: They were born in Alabama, of course, Dallas County. HUNTLEY: Dallas County, Alabama? FELDER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were both of them born in Dallas County? FELDER: Both of them were born in Dallas County. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Dallas County as well? FELDER: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have and where did you fall within the group? FELDER: It is 11 brothers and sisters. And there was five older than me and five younger than me. HUNTLEY: So you sat right in the middle? FELDER: Right in the center, yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your parents, about their education first of all. I know that our grandparents didn&#039 ; t get a lot of education but just tell us a little bit. FELDER: That&#039 ; s right. My father didn&#039 ; t get a lot of education. Of course, he was a very smart person so he educated himself a lot. And my mother was educated very well for those days. In fact, her mother lived with White people back in those days when she was born and it was her adopted mother, of course, and she had a very good life. She went to school. HUNTLEY: You said this was her adoptive mother? FELDER: Yes. She adopted her from a baby. HUNTLEY: How much formal education did she have? FELDER: I don&#039 ; t really remember, but I do remember her assisting in teaching whenever the teacher was absent back in those days. HUNTLEY: So she was probably better educated than most others? FELDER: Than most of the people in that area, yes. And she also helped my father. My father was with us a lot. And in our studies at night, she would be the teacher. HUNTLEY: What were their occupations. Was your mother actually a teaching assistant? FELDER: She was just a housewife/farmer. Farmer/housewife. HUNTLEY: And your father? FELDER: Was a farmer. HUNTLEY: He as a farmer? FELDER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you own your own land? FELDER: Yes. My father was a veteran of World War I and he bought the property, our family paid for it. HUNTLEY: So lived in the rural section of Dallas County? FELDER: Yes. In Orrville, O-R-R-V-I-L-L-E, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Can you describe what the community of Orrville was like? FELDER: Yes and no. We lived across the road from one White family who owned the store, Berry and Son. HUNTLEY: Berry and Son? FELDER: Berry and Son. And they were the only White people within miles to us. We had relatives. My father&#039 ; s brother lived next to us. They bought their places joining and that brother also had a lot of children who was right along with us in age. So we had churches in the neighborhood in walking distance. Of course, back in those days, you know, you could walk miles to church and to school. And every Sunday we were in church. One of those churches. HUNTLEY: All right. Now this one White family owned the store and this is where you did all of your shopping? FELDER: Oh, no. Oh, no. This was just a neighborhood store. My parents always shopped in Selma. In the City of Selma. HUNTLEY: Were there sharecroppers in the area? FELDER: There were sharecroppers. Those White people that lived across the street from us, or across the road had sharecroppers on their place, on that plantation. HUNTLEY: So they had a pretty large area? FELDER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about you, the recreation during that time? What did you all do? FELDER: Oh, we had something going all the time. We had a softball team within our family because my daddy played with us. And he would always see that there was no cheating from either side. Whatever we played. And we were playing something all the time. We worked very hard, but then we also played very hard, with each other. HUNTLEY: So did all the children then work on the farm? FELDER: Yes. We did. HUNTLEY: What did you do? FELDER: I&#039 ; ve done some of everything. I&#039 ; ve even plowed a mule. HUNTLEY: Is that right? FELDER: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: So you could actually handle a farm if you had to? FELDER: It&#039 ; s been a long time, but once upon a time I could have. Well, now, I&#039 ; m too old anyway. But once upon a time I could have. HUNTLEY: How would you describe your school, your high school for instance? FELDER: Let me start with the elementary. HUNTLEY: Sure. FELDER: Our elementary teachers most of the time was also our Sunday School teachers. We grew up with teachers teaching us in school everyday and also on Sundays. So we were all sort of like family people. The teachers back then were very concerned about all students. This was with all families. HUNTLEY: So what was the name of your elementary school? FELDER: Providence. HUNTLEY: Providence Elementary School? FELDER: Our church name was the same thing. We were taught in a little building right out from our church. HUNTLEY: Was it church affiliated? FELDER: No it wasn&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: It was a public school? FELDER: Right. A little two-room building with two teachers. HUNTLEY: And then you left there and went on to? FELDER: I went to school in Morlet Bend to junior high school. And of course, that&#039 ; s where I dropped out and came here because I was a mother at an early age. So back then, they didn&#039 ; t allow you to go to school with the other kids. I was determined to continue going to school. HUNTLEY: So you left Orrville to come to Birmingham? FELDER: Right. To support a child and go back to school. HUNTLEY: When you arrived in Birmingham then did you have family here? FELDER: Yes, I did. I came to my mother&#039 ; s niece, one of her nieces, I came to live with them and to get a job to go to school. I had to put my age up. I went to the county home, Ketona Home. I was supposed to have been 21 and I was always older looking than I was and I put my age up and got a job. Back then we didn&#039 ; t have social security cards and that came during the period while I was working out there. So I had to leave of course. HUNTLEY: Is that where you first worked at Ketona? FELDER: That was my first job I had at Ketona. I worked there three years. HUNTLEY: What did you do out there? FELDER: I worked in the kitchen department and serving the patients. HUNTLEY: And did you go on to school at that time as well? FELDER: I went to school at night. Poro Beauty School down here. After finishing Poro then I went back and got my GED years after that. HUNTLEY: What year did you come to Birmingham? FELDER: In 1949. HUNTLEY: In 1949, that is just prior to the Alabama Christian Movement being organized. FELDER: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Were you involved at all with the NAACP at that time? FELDER: Yes. I was a card holder and I had gone to some of the meetings. Not a lot but I had gone to some of the meetings and I was a card holder at that time. HUNTLEY: What was it like to be a member of the NAACP in Alabama in the 1950s? FELDER: Just about like anything else. You had to believe in what you were doing. You had to believe in whatever would come up that was going to help us in anyway. When I say &quot ; us&quot ; I mean our race. HUNTLEY: At that time the NAACP one of their issues was that of voting. FELDER:That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Were you a registered voter? FELDER: At that time they had this system where if you had children out of wedlock, they asked you all kinds of crazy questions to keep you from voting. So we had to study those questions and we had to know who the governor was, all kind of things. Who the president was and all of his cabinet and the governor&#039 ; s cabinet. We had to learn all of those things to vote. HUNTLEY: Did you pass the first time you went? FELDER: I passed the first time, because I was one of those people that had to be sure. So I passed the first time, but of course, it was after the Movement had come into the Alabama Christian Movement. HUNTLEY: Right. Well, in 1956, the State of Alabama outlaws the operation of the NAACP and the Alabama Christian Movement is established? FELDER: That&#039 ; s right. Then that&#039 ; s when I passed the voter registration. HUNTLEY: Were you a part of those first meetings when Fred Shuttlesworth and the Movement initially began? FELDER: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about that period? FELDER: I remember the seriousness of those meetings. The prayer and the determination to change the whole system. I remember the determination of everybody that was involved to make things better for the coming generation. HUNTLEY: One of the first issues that the Movement dealt with was that of a lack of Black policemen and there was a lawsuit that was filed and, of course we didn&#039 ; t get our first policeman for over ten years after that. But there were other issues. Of course, the issue of the school system when Shuttlesworth attempts to have his children enrolled in Phillips High School. Do you remember that? FELDER: Sure. I remember that real well. By the way, Rev. Shuttlesworth taught school in Orrville where I was reared. HUNTLEY: So you knew him prior to coming to Birmingham? FELDER: Right. He taught some of my sisters and brothers. HUNTLEY: I see. What role did you play in the Alabama Christian Movement? FELDER: Well to begin with, I would just go there. In fact, at our church, my sister was one of those who were teaching some of the members to pass all those questions I just got through talking about to vote. And I remember getting information and going back to the church to those questions and answers. HUNTLEY: So was that what precipitated you getting involved in the Movement itself? FELDER: Yes, it did. That was some of it. HUNTLEY: Did you attend the mass meetings on a regular basis? FELDER: Every time they had a mass meeting I was there. Because by this time I had started working as a beautician and I was self-employed. And so those people that could not attend the meetings because they would have lost their jobs I felt that it was my duty to come forward because nobody could fire me. HUNTLEY: So that independence is what allowed you the opportunity to do what you did? FELDER: Right. That was taught in us as children. HUNTLEY: How would you describe a typical mass meeting? FELDER: It is indescribable. It was like a revival. We had prayers and they were sincere prayers. We had the old time moans, the old time hymns and dedication. HUNTLEY: Were there individuals who gave testimony about different incidents? FELDER: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: Do you remember any? FELDER: I remember a Mrs. Jordan, I believe her name was, that was related to the Hendricks brothers and I am sure you know about them. Everybody does. Because they were all involved, a big family of them. And she could moan like you have never heard a moan. HUNTLEY: What do you mean &quot ; moan?&quot ; FELDER: Well, I&#039 ; m not a big singer, but you would have to hear it to believe it. One day, maybe we will have something like that all done over again so the young people can see where we were coming from. HUNTLEY: You mean when one of the deacons or someone would lead a tune and then everyone would follow that call and response kind of music? FELDER: That&#039 ; s right. And sometimes during a prayer there would be a spirit within that person in the audience that moan would come up out of their hearts. You could tell it was coming from the soul. HUNTLEY: And that&#039 ; s what you remember about the mass meetings? FELDER: That&#039 ; s right. It&#039 ; s one of those things that make you sleep real well when you go home at night. HUNTLEY: So then these meetings were sort of therapeutic for you? FELDER: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: At this point, and I always have my class try to look at things in the context of their own times. Why were they so therapeutic? What was happening that this would make you feel so much better? FELDER: We had the faith to know. You see we were taught faith and to believe in God. And we had the faith to know that somehow, someway things are going to be better. And we had that feeling within us. HUNTLEY: Do you remember Birmingham policemen being in the meetings? FELDER: Yes. All the time. HUNTLEY: Why were they there? FELDER: They were there to find out what was going on. And, all the time. They had connection back to Bull Conner I guess as to what was going on there. They wanted to find out if there was anything they could get there to put you in jail. HUNTLEY: You mean, they were in radio communications? FELDER: In radio communication all the time. Sometime you could actually hear it when it came on. But of course, I think we converted one of them while he was there in the meeting. HUNTLEY: Is that right. Why did you think that? FELDER: Oh. He started witnessing. He actually started witnessing in the meeting. HUNTLEY: How do you mean? What did he say? FELDER: Oh, he held up both hands hollering &quot ; holy, holy.&quot ; HUNTLEY: The spirit hit him? FELDER: That&#039 ; s right. That&#039 ; s right. In those days it happened like that. HUNTLEY: I had heard also that there were those times when the policeman would actually put money in the plate when it was passed around? FELDER: Yes. Yes. And there were times -- we had sermons from different ministers from different churches. There were times they were actually involved. There were times we could see tears coming from their eyes. They had a job to do and they were not involved in doing the mean things. Some of them were really involved in, you know, they had to do this for their job, of course, but they didn&#039 ; t want to do it. We had some to testify to that effect. HUNTLEY: Is that right? FELDER: Yes. HUNTLEY: I was also made aware that there were those who were termed to be &quot ; snitches&quot ; that were Black in the Movement? FELDER: Yes. Well, I am sure that happens in everything. Of course, I can&#039 ; t put my finger on anybody that I know of. HUNTLEY: So I would assume that if the policeman testifies or if he does something that is, you know, positive as far as the Movement is concerned, that information would get back as well? FELDER: Yes. And naturally they wouldn&#039 ; t send him back anymore. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of the demonstrations? FELDER: Yes, I did. On Easter Sunday, I believe that was in &#039 ; 63 I went to jail for walking down the sidewalk. I wasn&#039 ; t doing anything. We were marching. And they just put us all in jail because we were marching. HUNTLEY: How many of you were arrested that day? FELDER: Oh, there was a lot of us. I remember Rev. King. Martin Luther King was already in jail. But his brother was involved in this. HUNTLEY: This was the march where Rev. Smith, N. H. Smith, Rev. Porter and A. D. King were arrested? FELDER: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: And this is one of those famous pictures that were taken? FELDER: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: How long did you stay in jail? FELDER: I was in jail twice because -- actually I went to jail at that time and when they brought our case to trial, Judge Brown was trying the case at that time. And he fell dead up there trying a case. In other words, he had just sentenced a retarded man. And I guess it was so stressful on him, he just fell. And when he fell dead, then Bull Conner came running in the room screaming, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t let the niggers get away, don&#039 ; t let the niggers get away. Call Judge Conway.&quot ; So they called Judge Conway, and he had us all sent back to jail until they could set another trial for us. So we went back to jail that night. HUNTLEY: So this judge actually fell dead? FELDER: He was dead when he left out of there. It was the saddest thing I&#039 ; ve ever seen in my life. I just wish it was one of those things that everybody could see how hate can kill you. HUNTLEY: So you think it was the hate? FELDER: It was the hate in him. HUNTLEY: Did he exhibit hate during that day? FELDER: And it was so stressful to him that he actually fell over. There was a young lady seated behind me and she was the first person to realize he was sick and she stood up and screamed and pointed, &quot ; He&#039 ; s sick, he&#039 ; s sick.&quot ; And so they all ran. HUNTLEY: Was this a Black woman? FELDER: It was a Black woman. She was one of those that was in jail at the time I was there. FELDER: I believe her name was Askew, her last name. HUNTLEY: Margaret Askew? FELDER: I don&#039 ; t remember the first name right now. HUNTLEY: You say you were in jail twice. What were the circumstances of the second time? FELDER: This was the second time. They sent us back to arrange the trial. HUNTLEY: I see. But it was on the same issue that you were arrested. Well the day that you were arrested, how did they take you from the area that you were arrested, to the jail? Was it in a paddy wagon? FELDER: In a paddy wagon. They had them all parked out there ready to take us. And they just filled up one right after the other one without anybody scuffling or anything like that. At that time they carried us all to jail. HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate? FELDER: Yes. I had a sister that was very much involved. She was involved before I was with the students at Miles. HUNTLEY: With the students at Miles? FELDER: Yes. HUNTLEY: How did other members of your family react to your participation? FELDER: I have a very, very large family and I don&#039 ; t recall anybody in my family disagreeing. They didn&#039 ; t all participate by a long shot, but I don&#039 ; t recall anybody disagreeing with what we did. We were just in a position where we could not lose our jobs so this is why we went. HUNTLEY: What about your customers, though? FELDER: It was on Easter Sunday and I chose to go down there that day knowing that I may go to jail because after Easter week as a beautician your work is very slow. And I was working by appointments anyway. So I just didn&#039 ; t set up any appointments for the next week. HUNTLEY: But there were no pressures on you from your customers? FELDER: No. I got more customers. I really did. I had more patrons after then than I had for a long time. HUNTLEY: Now, you were also associated with the Movement choir, is that correct? FELDER: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me a little about that? How was that organized? FELDER: I can you tell you something about that but my sister could tell you a lot more because she was involved in organizing the choir. But I do know that Rev. Shuttlesworth as president of the Alabama Christian Movement asked some of the people from the audience if they would get the choir together and they did. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of? FELDER: At that time I was a member of 46th Street in East Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Was your church and pastor involved? FELDER: At that time, yes. HUNTLEY: Did you have meetings there at 46th Street? FELDER: We had one I believe, maybe one or two. But our church was small at the time so we couldn&#039 ; t accommodate that crowd. It was a large crowd. HUNTLEY: What benefits did you, your family and your community realize as a result of the Movement? FELDER: One of the things I think, there were doors opened up that we had never been able to go through, places to go, things to do, jobs and all that sort of thing. Some of the younger people in our families have gotten very good jobs after that. And schooling. HUNTLEY: So would you say that the Movement was, in fact, a success? FELDER: Very much so. It could have been better, but I think this is because of the misunderstanding of what it was all about. HUNTLEY: How do you mean misunderstanding? FELDER: Some of the young people believe that the world owes them something and they don&#039 ; t realize that they have to work for what they get. They have to participate. They have to be aggressive themselves and I think about our generation working so hard to give them all of the material things that we gave them, they misunderstand. They don&#039 ; t know how hard it was for us to come by them. HUNTLEY: Do you think that the Movement was successful or a failure in that regard of passing this on to a younger generation? FELDER: I really feel that in some ways we sort of got off the mark. We didn&#039 ; t pass it on as well as we should have, believing that they would have understood. But they don&#039 ; t have enough information. HUNTLEY: So you believe that there&#039 ; s a need then for us in our generation to develop mechanisms by which we can pass this information on? FELDER: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: And it will be passed on from generation to generation. FELDER: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: And you think that, in fact, would have a more positive impact? FELDER: I believe it would help a whole lot. HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with that related to the Movement? Let me just ask you one question. If I ask you what was the most vivid memory that you have of the Movement during that time, what would you say? FELDER: I believe that would be very hard to answer. But right now, since we were talking about jail, I remember there was a lady in this cell with me. We were all in one great big room with no mattresses on our beds. There were holes, rounds holes in those steel beds that we slept on with nothing but the clothes that we wore in jail. And there was a lady there, her first name was Bessie, I remember that because I had a sister named Bessie. But I don&#039 ; t remember her last name. And this lady had asthma and in the night this lady got very, very ill. And I had saved my call. You know they would give you a chance to call out after you get in jail. So I had saved mine for an emergency and that night I called the Movement because I remembered where the Movement was that night to talk to Rev. Gardner who was the vice president to ask him to see if they could get this lady some help because we didn&#039 ; t think she would live until morning. And that lady, while I was talking to Rev. Gardner, you know they were listening to me. So while I was talking to Rev. Gardner, they came up and got her and carried her to UAB. They gave her a shot and a few hours latter they brought her back. She was doing better. Now, they told her, she came in and told us that they told her she could go home if she wanted to from the hospital. But she told them she didn&#039 ; t want to go home. She wanted to come back with the group that she had gone to jail with. She wanted to be free. She wanted to have the same rights and privilege of any other human being on this earth and she came back to jail. HUNTLEY: Would you call that commitment? FELDER: Commitment. That was the kind of commitment we had back in those days. HUNTLEY: Obviously the Movement had to have been made of people who had that kind of commitment and dedication -- FELDER: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Because without it it would not have been a success. Mrs. Felder I certainly thank you taking the time out and coming and spending this time with us today. We hope to sit down and talk with you again at some later date. FELDER: Thank you for inviting me. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=HFelder1995.xml HFelder1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hattie Felder Description An account of the resource Hattie Felder discusses being arrested at the Easter Sunday demonstrations in 1963. She remained active and went on to participate in the Movement Choir. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950602F Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-06-02 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/859bacc6e6319c4da1fcd3e5575d8de8.jpg cf1f3621f4f3e3928d8493cc33c6e918 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Henrietta S. Tripp OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=HTripp1998.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Mass meetings OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.3 April 9, 1998 Henrietta S. Tripp Interviewed on April 9, 1998 19980409T 0:54:33 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Meaghan Cash Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Slavery Mass meetings Henrietta S. Tripp Horace Huntley Video 1:|19(6)|33(12)|43(12)|67(6)|90(8)|100(7)|117(12)|125(11)|141(11)|160(7)|174(7)|187(6)|207(12)|216(10)|230(4)|242(5)|255(13)|269(11)|280(2)|306(3)|323(6)|344(9)|358(6)|376(2)|388(3)|397(7)|410(14)|417(2)|430(10)|451(4)|466(17)|481(1)|491(6)|507(5)|521(8)|543(11)|552(14)|570(7)|578(3)|600(5)|615(8)|629(4)|643(13)|660(6)|669(19)|682(12)|689(6)|699(9)|711(10)|717(6)|739(6)|751(3)|757(1) 0 https://youtu.be/_FwzvnU5peA YouTube video English 0 Introduction This is an interview for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute‟s Oral History Project. Introduction to the interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history project Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history project 33.516405, -86.814553 18 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 39 Family Origins Where are you from originally? Introduction to family origins and how family ended up in Alabama Alabama ; family ; Marion Juction ; Mississippi ; slave trade Alabama ; Family ; Marion Junction ; Slave trade 274 Childhood in Marion Junction and Family life Now, tell me a little about Marion Junction. Discussion of growing up in Marion Junction, AL and home life. Cotton baling ; farmer ; home life ; Marion Junction ; Sewing ; white community childhood ; cotton ; farmer ; white community 717 Early Education Tell me about your schooling. Discussion of parents education and early education in Marion Junction Beloit ; Dallas County Training School ; Hair Crossroad ; Mud Hall ; Schooling Education (Early childhood) ; Gary Elementary school ; Lincoln High School 926 Extracurricular Activities in School Were you active in any extracurricular activities? Short discussion of interest in music and band during high school band ; Beloit ; Dallas County Training School ; Majorette ; music Beloit ; extracurricular activities 1014 Growing up as a Young Black Woman in Alabama and Sexual Harassment When I got in high school, we used to go to Marion on Saturdays. They had a, I guess you would call it a boot camp, where they had the soldiers, where they would do their practice. Discussion of experiencing segregation in high school as well as sexual harassment at a young age Blacks--Segregation ; boot camp ; high school ; Sexual harassment Blacks--Segregation ; Sexual harassment 1189 Father's Confrontations with Whites Did you ever think of telling your father? Discussion of father's confrontations with white people and mistreatment from whites confrontation ; ethics ; father ; Race ; racial issues ; Sexual harassment ; whites Race 1709 Life after High School What did you do after high school? Discusses life after graduating high school ; traveling and living in Cleveland, jobs and post graduation schooling. Alumnist beauty school ; Brickman Cafeteria ; Cleveland ; Eden modeling school ; Man power training school ; nursing ; Smithfield Birmingham (Ala.) ; YMCA 2068 Work in Voter's Registration In '60. '60 was the year that the sit-ins started around the south. In '61 was the year the Freedom Riders come into town. Discusses sit-ins and demonstrations in the 1960s in Birmingham, AL. Also talks about work in Voter's Registration and church meetings. demonstrations ; Freedom Riders ; mass meetings ; Miles College ; police brutality ; sit-ins ; Zion Hill Birmingham (Ala.) ; Hate crimes ; Miles College ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 2498 Discrimination in the Workplace You, then, being the first Black person to get a job in the clerical pool at city hall. What was that like? Discusses discrimination experienced in the workplace in clerical position at city hall. city hall ; clerk ; discrimination ; racial discrimination ; traffic citations discrimination ; race ; racial discrimination 2828 Work at Fultondale High School and Marriage After I left city hall I went to work at Fultondale High School. By then I was still in college at night and I obtained my degree then. Discusses time working at Fultondale high school in attendance and discipline. Also talks about prejudice in the school system and marriage. Fultondale High School ; marriage ; Marriage ; prejudice ; Tarrant City Fultondale High School ; marriage ; prejudice 3033 Work with Young People and Closing Remarks You have been very helpful. We've covered a lot of territory in this hour or so. Is there anything else that you would like to share with us? Discusses interest in working with young people and importance of helping communities. community ; work ; work ethic ; youth community ; work ethic ; youth Oral History Henrietta S. Tripp discusses being the first Black person hired in a clerical position at Birmingham City Hall after growing up in Marion, Alabama. She attended most mass meetings of the Movement, but did not demonstrate. HUNTLEY: This is an interview for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I&#039 ; m interviewing Ms. Henrietta Tripp. My name is Dr. Horace Huntley. Today is April 9, 1998. Ms. Tripp I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule, cause I know you&#039 ; re busy, to come and sit and talk with me today. TRIPP: Well, I appreciate you asking. HUNTLEY: Yes, ma&#039 ; am. Where are you from originally? TRIPP: I was originally born in Marion Junction, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Were your parents from Marion Junction? TRIPP: My parents were from, close to . . . HUNTLEY: In that general area? TRIPP: Yes, in that general area. My father&#039 ; s father, my grandfather, was from North Carolina. He was born there, but he was raised up in Massaline, just close to Marion Junction. HUNTLEY: How did he . . . why did he move from North Carolina to Alabama? TRIPP: Well, during that time my grandfather&#039 ; s father was a slave. During that time he was traded off and he moved to Mississippi from North Carolina. HUNTLEY: So, he was actually traded from an owner in North Carolina to someone in Mississippi? TRIPP: Right. Then, they moved from Mississippi to Alabama. HUNTLEY: And that story remains in your family about the movement from North Carolina. Do you know where in North Carolina he was from? TRIPP: No, that&#039 ; s what we&#039 ; re working on, because I am the coordinator of the family reunions. I got a lot of that, but I don&#039 ; t have at any place that I want it. I just talked to a brother that was born in 1912. My oldest brother was born in 1910. My second oldest brother has a better remembrance. Some of the older people have passed on now. I just wish I had started to try to gather this history before my aunt, who lived out to be 101. My mother she didn&#039 ; t live as long a life, because she had so many children. She passed on at 63. Then, my dad passed on earlier. Then, my grandfather passed on a long time before. So, nobody had thought of this. I think Roots brought on this. HUNTLEY: A lot of family when people start looking for that background and heritage. Where in Mississippi did they live? TRIPP: It was Jacksonville and Meridian. They lived in two places there. HUNTLEY: Jacksonville or Jackson? TRIPP: Jackson, Mississippi. HUNTLEY: Jackson, Mississippi and Meridian, Mississippi? TRIPP: Yes. HUNTLEY: That was rather close to Marion? TRIPP: Yeah, in that part of Alabama. I don&#039 ; t know why they changed to Alabama. I don&#039 ; t know why they changed. HUNTLEY: That was my next question, why they left Mississippi. TRIPP: During that time, my brother told me there was a lot of slave trade and as far as my brother knew, Robert knew, he was sold to someone in Alabama and that&#039 ; s how he ended up in Alabama. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? TRIPP: There were fourteen, but my mother reared thirteen because one, Virginia, died a baby. So, they reared thirteen children. HUNTLEY: Where were you in the scheme of things? TRIPP: I was the knee baby, so to speak. I have a baby brother under me. HUNTLEY: So, you are next to the last? TRIPP: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, I know you were spoiled. TRIPP: Yes. HUNTLEY: Now, tell me a little about Marion Junction. TRIPP: Marion Junction was a little town. It was segregated. My father, he did not believe in his children...all of my brothers were older except the baby brother. He did not believe in his children working on the farms for the White people. So, they all had to work at home and my father raised everything. HUNTLEY: Was he a farmer? TRIPP: Yes. He was a minister and a farmer. During those years my daddy raised like 60, 70 bails of cotton and my brothers and they really worked. Everything we ate he raised it himself, flour, I believe it was. So, my brothers had to work on the farm and do all of the work. So, what happened in that doing that my daddy was rejected by the White community. So, they wouldn&#039 ; t sell him any land, but they leased him the land and the place, 75 acres of land for 60 years. So, he leased it and that&#039 ; s where he raised all of his family and children there. So, my daddy said, he used to tell us that when he would take his cotton to the gin, they would make him get on the end. He had to wait on the end, because he would have more cotton than anybody. The Lord really blessed him. He would have more cotton, bails of cotton, than anybody and so, but he waited. He was still not going to let his children work out. He was determined of that and he didn&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: All of you worked at home? TRIPP: At home. HUNTLEY: How many boys and how many girls? TRIPP: Five girls and eight boys. During this time five of us wasn&#039 ; t born then. So, it was the older ones. My oldest brother was born in 1910, John Henry. My second oldest brother was Robert. Next is George and then, it was a sister and then, it was three more brothers. So, it was two sisters and then, three more brothers. So, many I have to look at the list to keep up with them. They all worked and my mom would sew. She made just about everything we wore. She taught my sisters how to sew. By the time the younger group came in, she talked like there were two groups. By the time we were born my two older sisters and my other two older sisters, that is the one I&#039 ; m next to and the one she&#039 ; s next to, we had learned that she had taught everybody to learn, to teach everybody to sew. So, everybody is sewing now. My trade was doing hair. I used to like to do hair. My second oldest, wait a minute. Let&#039 ; s go back, my oldest brother was a railroad worker after he grew up and liked to be a young man and got married. He got married at 18. So, he worked on the railroad and then he had a store. He started a store in his house and then, when he moved, they sold him some land on another place and he bought 125 acres of land and then he put him a store. So, his family, his children were raised in the store and he worked on the railroad. HUNTLEY: So, he never farmed then? TRIPP: Yes, growing up. HUNTLEY: But when he became adult, he worked on the railroad and had a store? TRIPP: Yes. He just had a garden. Everybody had a garden, like greens and corn and okra, small truck farms they call it. HUNTLEY: Now, did he remain in Marion, or did he ever leave Marion? TRIPP: No, he remained in Marion Junction. He retired from the railroad and he&#039 ; s there now. HUNTLEY: What did your mother do? Did she ever work outside of the home? TRIPP: No. She was a housewife. She kept on the farm and she taught us to sew. She was a bible teacher. She was just a good mother. HUNTLEY: Did your father have a church? You say he was an Evangelist, so he traveled. TRIPP: No, for a very short time he pastored a church in Massaline, but it was very short, but he must have went all through the country. That&#039 ; s what he was, an Evangelist. HUNTLEY: Right, right. Well, for practical purposes, the baby girl anyway, what was it like having that large of a family? Did you have the opportunity to work on the farm? Was your father still farming as you grew up? TRIPP: It was, the family, my mom always taught us to stick together, we were a close family. It was fun for me, because they kind of did everything. I didn&#039 ; t have to cook and a lot of the things that I didn&#039 ; t have to do the older ones had to do. So, by the time I was born my father was not into that big farming, just truck farming at this time. I didn&#039 ; t have to work in the field. HUNTLEY: Did you ever wish that you could work in the field, or do you ever wish that you could have worked in the field? Or did you not want to do that as a child, you know? TRIPP: Yeah, well, I didn&#039 ; t mind it. As a matter of fact, I did do it. What happened, we were raised to help people and there was a family and this family was my mother&#039 ; s best friend lady and all of her children had grown up and left, too. Her children would come back and do the farming, they still farm because her husband wanted to farm it. He was the type of man that just liked to see a lot of cotton, corn and everything. So, my mom would let us go over and help out. So, I did get a chance to pick the cotton and the corn and all of that. It wasn&#039 ; t like it was a requirement when my father was raising the family up. HUNTLEY: Right. That pressure wasn&#039 ; t on you. It was more . . . TRIPP: Like helping out. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your schooling. Well, first of all let me ask you this. How much schooling did your parents have? TRIPP: My parents did not . . . my mom had a third grade education. My father had a fifth grade education. That&#039 ; s almost as high as they went, then, I suppose, I think. HUNTLEY: During that time, particularly in the rural areas, it was rather difficult to get much further than that. TRIPP: Right. HUNTLEY: Now, your education, do you remember your first school? TRIPP: Yes, Gary School. HUNTLEY: Tell me about it. TRIPP: I do remember that school. Ms. Minnie was my teacher, she was a jewel. Gary Elementary School was the first school I attended. I got kind of moved up in a grade when I was in the first, or second grade, I believe it was. She was a good teacher. It was a little school in Massaline. Everybody was in the same school, all grades were in the same classroom. Everybody, it&#039 ; s just amazing how quite we were. She had to teach every grade. Everybody had their books in their little section. In the winter time when it was real cold, we had a wooden heater and when it would get real cold, she would let us come around and warm up and get warm. Sometimes she would let us put our hands in our pockets. We would have our hands in our pockets when we would read, when she was teaching us to read. It was a beautiful time. She loved us. It was a loving time. Everybody obeyed and it&#039 ; s so different now. It was a joyous time. There&#039 ; s one thing that I got exposed to later on in years. I was not exposed to racism in elementary school, because there wasn&#039 ; t nobody there, nobody but us Black kids. It wasn&#039 ; t like an integrated school having being exposed to there&#039 ; s a White school across the street, or nothing like that. They were way across wherever. I was never exposed to them, because they were never there. We had our little school and our little book that we read and we didn&#039 ; t know then if we were to have anything else or not, you see. But we learned what we had. In later years it was different. HUNTLEY: How long did you go to that school? TRIPP: I went to Gary School until I was in the fifth grade. Then, we went to another little school called Mud Hall. Then, from Mud Hall to Hair Crossroad, where I was in eighth and ninth grade there. In the tenth grade I was in Lincoln High School in Marion. Then, from Lincoln I graduated at Dallas County Training School in Beloit. HUNTLEY: Were you active in any extracurricular activities? TRIPP: Yes, I liked the band. I liked the music, I also did like music. Mr. Hobs at Dallas County Training School let me do the drums. I don&#039 ; t know what was so exciting about the drums at that time. I was a majorette at Marion, that was in the tenth grade. Then, I did the drums. We didn&#039 ; t have a full band at Beloit. Mr. Hobs would let us have it in the class. We didn&#039 ; t have bands it was a country school. It wasn&#039 ; t like Marion. So, we would have music in the classroom. HUNTLEY: Did Marion not go through the twelfth grade? TRIPP: Yes, but the zoning, I couldn&#039 ; t go there anymore it was something that we had moved out of the district. That kind of thing got started down there. I was in Dallas County when I went to Marion. It may be because my nieces lived in Perry County and they found out. I don&#039 ; t know, but I had to finish at Beloit. HUNTLEY: As a young Black woman growing up in that part of Alabama, what was it like? Are there any experiences that you would share with us? Something to describe your childhood. TRIPP: When I got in high school, we used to go to Marion on Saturdays. They had a, I guess you would call it a boot camp, where they had the soldiers, where they would do their practice. HUNTLEY: Training? TRIPP: Yes. One thing I noticed was that there wasn&#039 ; t any Blacks in that great army of young men. I used to wonder to myself why there wasn&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: So, there were no Blacks at the training camp? TRIPP: No. We used to stand on the sidewalk and watch them do their practice. I used to stand and watch them do their practice and just often wondered why there wasn&#039 ; t any Black men out there. When I got to be 14, I guess that&#039 ; s when I started working, because my mom always liked for us to work. I started working for a lady. She was sick and at that time my mom wanted me to be a nurse. So, this lady had a daughter that was a RN and she taught me how to give her mom shots, cause she had an illness that required shots. She had a son and her son was . . . she was a good lady, but her son was real sneaky and he would do things, or say things to me he shouldn&#039 ; t say behind her back and couldn&#039 ; t tell his mother. HUNTLEY: What sort of things did he say? TRIPP: Like, well, you know they talk about this . . . what women talk about men harassing them. HUNTLEY: Sexual harassment? TRIPP: Sexual harassment. If you want to talk about sexual harassment, oh God, I&#039 ; ve had that since I was 14 years old. HUNTLEY: Was this a White family? TRIPP: Yes. He didn&#039 ; t rape me or nothing like that, but he would always approach me and tell me not to tell his mother. Really I didn&#039 ; t tell anybody, my mom either, because I knew she would make me stop working over there. So he didn&#039 ; t . . . he would just always bother me. HUNTLEY: Was he older? TRIPP: Yes, he was older, much older. HUNTLEY: Was he grown? TRIPP: Yes, he was indeed grown up. He and his wife were separated and he lived with his mom. HUNTLEY: Did you ever think of telling your father? TRIPP: Yes, I thought about it, but I knew what my dad would do, because I knew of some confrontation that he had in Marion Junction that he would tell us about. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. What kind of confrontations? TRIPP: When my dad raised my older brothers, as I said, they had to work at home, but he would send them to the store in Marion Junction. So, my dad had given my brother ten dollars to go to the store to get something. Well, you weren&#039 ; t supposed to go to the store then during the week, see. You would only go to the store on Saturdays. Well, my brother said it was a Monday and my dad sent him to the store with the ten dollars. Well, they harassed my brother and wanted to know what he was doing there and what was he doing with that ten dollars. Had he stole that ten dollars. They wouldn&#039 ; t sell him anything and they took the ten dollars. HUNTLEY: Was this the White store owners? TRIPP: Yes. HUNTLEY: And took the ten dollars? TRIPP: Yes. So, my brother went back and told my dad. And my dad went up there and there was a great confrontation. My dad told them that whenever he sent his children to the store to give them what they wanted and give them their money. So, my dad, they called him Crazy Tom, that&#039 ; s what they called him. He wasn&#039 ; t crazy, he just was a man. HUNTLEY: He was standing up for himself? TRIPP: Yes. HUNTLEY: He was crazy in their terms? TRIPP: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, that meant he probably got a lot of respect, too. TRIPP: He did. They didn&#039 ; t bother him. They wouldn&#039 ; t sell him any land, but they didn&#039 ; t bother him because my brother . . . now my mom and dad, and I can see now why they didn&#039 ; t tell us a lot of things, because they didn&#039 ; t want to instill hate. They always instilled in us to love everybody, regardless of what they do to you. They never told us to hate White people, or to hate nobody. My brothers have told us a lot since we&#039 ; ve grown up and I see why she did it. Not that we hate now, because we know that&#039 ; s not the way it goes. But I don&#039 ; t know why, but I do believe that&#039 ; s the reason they didn&#039 ; t want to expose us to all that they had encountered. So, they didn&#039 ; t tell us. My brother told us a lot of things that they had to encounter. Like other people who worked on half. They call it working on half. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s sharecropping? TRIPP: Yes, that&#039 ; s what they call it. So, my daddy would let some people do this on his place. He was good to the people. A lot of people wanted to come work on his place, because on the White people&#039 ; s place they would have to do . . . they would never . . . they would take their crops, a lot of their crops while they worked. Then, some of those people would beat those people. One day they were beating a man, my brother says, and my dad defended him and they hit him. He pulled that man off the horse and that was a great confrontation. HUNTLEY: So, your father was a fighter? TRIPP: Yes, he wasn&#039 ; t a violent man or nothing like that. You just didn&#039 ; t bother him, you just leave him alone and his children. HUNTLEY: He believed in self-defense? TRIPP: Yes, he did. He believed in self-defense and protecting his family. HUNTLEY: Were there other stories that your brothers have told you that related to race during that time? I know in certain parts of Alabama, that was Black Belt, right? TRIPP: Yes. HUNTLEY: The relationships between Blacks and Whites and one reason they would call your father crazy was because he went against the norm. The norm was to be submissive. He obviously was not submissive. So, that meant he would stand up for what he felt was right. White people, then, would look at that as being crazy because there were not, all Black men would not do that. TRIPP: No, no they didn&#039 ; t. He didn&#039 ; t and the fact that they hit him really touched him that morning. They said it was one morning. My brothers, they told us about, my oldest brother told us about when he worked on the railroad and how the people would do on the railroad. This man, I don&#039 ; t remember his name, but they had to do the cross ties and he had a yell. When he yelled, you were supposed to run, but my brother didn&#039 ; t run, cause my mom had told him and she told all of us to work and do your work and you get your pace. She told him that a many time, you get your pace and you do your pace, you work. You do an honest days work, but you don&#039 ; t run and rip on the job. So, when he would do the yell, my brother did not run. So, this man asked him, &quot ; didn&#039 ; t you hear me?&quot ; My brother said, &quot ; yeah, I heard you.&quot ; He was real quite, this is my oldest brother. He said, &quot ; yeah, I heard you.&quot ; Then, he said, &quot ; didn&#039 ; t you see everybody else get over there?&quot ; My brother said, &quot ; well, didn&#039 ; t you see me get over there?&quot ; &#039 ; Yeah, but you didn&#039 ; t get over there with them.&quot ; He said, &quot ; yeah, but I went over there, didn&#039 ; t I?&quot ; I remember my brother said, he said that. He said, he looked at him and said, &quot ; I went over there, didn&#039 ; t I?&quot ; He didn&#039 ; t bother him anymore, but my brother said he always looked at him. He looked, but he didn&#039 ; t bother him anymore. HUNTLEY: So, he had to deal with the railroad in that area? TRIPP: Yes, he had to maintain it by putting the coals on the railroad tracks then. They had to put the coals in the proper place and had to put them under the cross ties so when the train would run on it, they wouldn&#039 ; t go down, or whatever. They had to care for it. I remember when we used to ride the train all the time. We would go to Marion and to Selma, on to those places when I was a teenager. I didn&#039 ; t, my oldest sister encountered this White man, my mom said that, my sister told me later that he made an advance toward my older sister and he told my mother that if she would let her go with him what he would do for the family and all. But my mother said, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t trade my daughters.&quot ; So, he dropped his head and rode away on his horse and didn&#039 ; t bother my sister anymore. What I&#039 ; m saying, there was not too much confrontation because of my daddy. They knew that my daddy was not one that would tolerate it. So, we grew up separate. They had their schools. The only confrontations we had with White people were when we would go to the store. So, they didn&#039 ; t bother us. HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school? TRIPP: After high school, my mom wanted me to be a nurse and then, she wanted me to be a music teacher. She really wanted me to be a music teacher. When I got out of high school, I wanted to go all over the country a little. I wanted to be a model. So, I traveled around. I lived awhile with my cousin in Cleveland, Ohio. HUNTLEY: Did you leave for Cleveland right after high school? TRIPP: No, right after high school I came here to Birmingham to live with my oldest sister for awhile. Then, I went there. HUNTLEY: Did you work here? TRIPP: Yeah, in the 60s, after I kind of floated around. HUNTLEY: No, I mean when you came here to live with your sister? TRIPP: No, I wasn&#039 ; t working then. It was kind of like a vacation. I kind of stayed with her a summer. I got out of high school in 1955 and I came here. I stayed during that summer with her. I believe it was the Christmas of 1955 that I went to Cleveland to live with my cousin. She had a beauty shop. I really did hair in high school, I got some training. HUNTLEY: So, you worked with your cousin when you got to Cleveland in the beauty shop? TRIPP: Yeah. HUNTLEY: How did you like Cleveland versus Birmingham and Marion? TRIPP: I didn&#039 ; t. I think, maybe, because she didn&#039 ; t live far from Lake Superior. I liked the scene and I liked the lights. She had a cousin, it, maybe because of my upbringing, but her daughter was real into the fast life. HUNTLEY: Was she your age, her daughter? TRIPP: Yes. I think I didn&#039 ; t like it. I didn&#039 ; t like the things and places she went and all. So, I wanted to come back. HUNTLEY: So, how long were you in Cleveland? TRIPP: Off and on, like I stayed there that winter and spring and I came back. Then, that summer I went back a while. I just was really just getting the edge off, or seeing what I was going to do, or something like that, I guess. Then, I came back and I got into Eden Modeling School here. I did that a while, won a few newspaper and things, interviews in the &#039 ; 60s. Then, I went back again. I thought that Lois and I would kind of do this model together. I wanted her to do what I would like her to do, but that wasn&#039 ; t her. HUNTLEY: Who was Lois? Was that your cousin? TRIPP: Cousin. HUNTLEY: Ok. TRIPP: So, I came back and then I started to work at a drug store on 1st Avenue North. I worked there a while. I can&#039 ; t think of the name of that store. It was on the corner of 1st Avenue and 19th Street. Then, I worked at Brickman Cafeteria and at Morris and I started going to Alumnist Beauty School. I thought I would go into that. So, I finished it in about a year or two, maybe. Then, I started to work at a beauty shop and I continued to pursue my subject. I enrolled then at one of them, was at the Y. I was taking typing at the Y, because I was seeing then I wanted to go another way. I used the beauty shop so I could finish. I worked in the beauty shop and continued to go to school in the evenings. I went to . . . after I left the Y taking typing, then, I enrolled in Man Power Training School, probably in the mid 60s. I finished there and then I started working. I was still working at the beauty shop in the evenings. I took the test to get a job wherever I could get one. I passed the test and I was hired at city hall. [inaudible] traffic citation for Carters Court in 1966, August, 1966. HUNTLEY: You were one of the first then? TRIPP: Yes, I was one of the first Blacks hired in the clerical position. HUNTLEY: Prior to that, you came back to Birmingham in 1958. Is that right? TRIPP: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you lived in what community? TRIPP: In Smithfield area. I lived on 10th Street. I was living on 10th Street when the bomb went off at Sixteenth Street. I believe, then, I was probably, I think I was taking cosmetology. I had just finished one because I finished in &#039 ; 63. HUNTLEY: See, that happened in &#039 ; 63 also. It happened in September of &#039 ; 63. TRIPP: Ok. HUNTLEY: So, had you finished by then? TRIPP: So, I was working at the beauty shop there on Sixteenth Street and going to school at night in &#039 ; 63. HUNTLEY: In &#039 ; 60. &#039 ; 60 was the year that the sit-ins started around the south. In &#039 ; 61 was the year the Freedom Riders come into town. &#039 ; 62 was the year that Miles College students and the movement sort of incorporated on a selective buying campaign downtown, where they boycotted the stores downtown. Of course, in &#039 ; 63 were the big demonstrations. Were you involved in any of those activities? TRIPP: No and the reason is that I guess I had a little of my dad in me, because I knew I couldn&#039 ; t take the hitting and I just knew I wasn&#039 ; t non-violent. I admire it and I worked in the voter&#039 ; s registration and all that, but I just couldn&#039 ; t tolerate that. HUNTLEY: You did work in the voter&#039 ; s registration? TRIPP: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. TRIPP: Well, I wanted to be a voter. They had meetings at my church. HUNTLEY: The mass meetings of the movement? TRIPP: Yes. HUNTLEY: Ok. What church were you a member of? TRIPP: Zion Hill, right down from Sixteenth Street Baptist Church and that&#039 ; s where the voter&#039 ; s registration was in the evening time. They taught me the Constitution and the things they asked you. Then, I went in and I passed. I learned those things and I said it and I passed. Then, I started working to help the other people to vote. A lot of them had gone down and didn&#039 ; t pass it. There&#039 ; s two things they asked me, what&#039 ; s the Constitution of the United States and how many presidents. I named some of them, because I couldn&#039 ; t remember them all and he said, &quot ; well, that&#039 ; s ok.&quot ; So, that was that. A lot of the people ...it wasn&#039 ; t like a structured question and people would say different things that were being asked. So, we were trying to help them to remember it all. Some of the people were older and couldn&#039 ; t remember what we were teaching. HUNTLEY: Well, I&#039 ; ve interviewed people and they said they had questions like how many seeds are there in a watermelon and how many bubbles are there in a bar of soap. That kind of questions. It&#039 ; s hard to prepare people for that, but you did help people prepare for answers to questions about the Constitution and government in general. TRIPP: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you ever attend any of the mass meetings? TRIPP: Yes. All of them. Well, not all of them but many. HUNTLEY: How would you describe a mass meeting? TRIPP: That was hallelujah time. They were spiritual. During those times I was thinking about sometime where I was working. There was so much unity and love and I wish those times would come back. During those days it was a glorious unity among people. People would tell their experiences that they were having. I never will forget when Martin Luther King was at Sixteenth Street and he was talking about Birmingham being one of the hardest cities to crack. It was the hardest city to crack. I was thinking in my mind, I&#039 ; m not political and all that, but I was thinking we were doing fine. He was talking about the structure of the city and how hardcore it was against Blacks. And I&#039 ; m thinking about oh, we&#039 ; re singing and having a good time, you know. That&#039 ; s the way I was thinking. I never will forget that&#039 ; s the way I was thinking when he said that. HUNTLEY: So, you were thinking about the good time you were having in that gathering spiritually, rather than what was happening outside of the church? TRIPP: Yeah. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of the demonstrations? TRIPP: No, I did not and I saw a lot of them and I went on by it because . . . HUNTLEY: Were you on the [inaudible] and watch as they? TRIPP: Yes. HUNTLEY: What was that feeling like just to watch them? TRIPP: I didn&#039 ; t watch it all. I would just see what was going on, but then I would go. I just couldn&#039 ; t take it. I just could not, the hitting and the pushing and the shoving and the cursing. It was just like mad folks. The viciousness on their faces and the expressions and the hate. HUNTLEY: Was this viciousness and hate, was that from Blacks and Whites? TRIPP: No, it was from the Whites beating on the Blacks. HUNTLEY: So, that viciousness and hate was coming from policemen? TRIPP: Yes, and the dogs. HUNTLEY: So, you&#039 ; ve witnessed it, but you couldn&#039 ; t participate and you couldn&#039 ; t witness very long? TRIPP: No, not very long because see, like I said, I just wasn&#039 ; t going to take it. I guess I would have been dead. Somebody, a lady and I don&#039 ; t know her, the lady told me, &quot ; baby, you need to go home.&quot ; I think she could see something in me, I guess an expression. She told me, &quot ; you need to go home.&quot ; I never will forget it. I don&#039 ; t know who that lady was, but I never will forget it. HUNTLEY: Did you go? TRIPP: I was leaving anyway, but she was right. It was non-violent and that was one thing and I knew I couldn&#039 ; t do that. HUNTLEY: You, then, being the first Black person to get a job in the clerical pool at city hall. What was that like? TRIPP: What was that like? I worked in traffic citations, so I had to accept tickets from the public. And the two ladies that were in the traffic citations were very negative. They talked about the sneaky and cunning things that they would do. HUNTLEY: What would they do? TRIPP: They would do things like hide, the personal things are just not fit to tell. HUNTLEY: Tell me. TRIPP: It was just, it&#039 ; s really so bad. HUNTLEY: Is this personal things to you? TRIPP: It was like she would pass by my desk and fan her dress, you know. She knew what she had done. Then, she would look back at me like that to see how I was taking it. Then, she would hide the work. I&#039 ; m sitting at my desk and the tickets, all the tickets that came in that night are supposed to be in the box there. There&#039 ; s so much work you do, you&#039 ; re supposed to get that work out. Well, I couldn&#039 ; t find it. I spent all that time and the evening shift would come and put the tickets down on my desk and say, &quot ; you haven&#039 ; t done your work today.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ve been looking for the tickets all day and I asked you about them.&quot ; HUNTLEY: This was your supervisor? TRIPP: No, she was just a worker. HUNTLEY: Just a worker? TRIPP: Yes. HUNTLEY: What was the reaction of your supervisor? TRIPP: My supervisor didn&#039 ; t care. He believed what she said. You had no hope. There was no hope in there. A lot of times and the reason I think, I think the Lord had [inaudible]. I would cry a lot and I think that was releasing and I know that the Lord was watching me and to keep me calm and I think that was a way I would release that. It didn&#039 ; t make sense what they did. That&#039 ; s why I didn&#039 ; t do the work. Then, the supervisor would come and say, &quot ; you didn&#039 ; t get this work.&quot ; I said, &quot ; well I couldn&#039 ; t find it. Miriam had it hid, she had it hid.&quot ; He said, &quot ; well, she said . . .&quot ; It was always like that, she said this or that. HUNTLEY: How long did you work under those conditions? TRIPP: I worked there from 1966, August, 1966 until August, 1971. It was like four or five years something like that. HUNTLEY: Were those conditions existing through that whole period? TRIPP: They were the same thing. I thought I hated . . . and I would say I hate them when we would go on our break. This lady, I never will forget, she came like, she was the first stenographer, she was a Black lady. She told me, &quot ; Henrietta, you&#039 ; ve got to pray.&quot ; I said, pray, for them? What they&#039 ; re doing to me?&quot ; She said, &quot ; you&#039 ; ve got to pray for them.&quot ; But I learned that you do have to pray. I learned that pray keeps you out of that. I had been taught how to release, I&#039 ; ve forgotten this course now. I learned in later years, when I went to work at the Board of Education that you have to release the pressure. I&#039 ; ve forgotten what that course is called now, stress management. I had stress management then, but stress management didn&#039 ; t do me good. HUNTLEY: What did you do after you left city hall? TRIPP: After I left city hall I went to work at Fultondale High School. By then I was still in college at night and I obtained my degree then. I went to work at Fultondale High school as an aide, just an aide in the vocational building. I worked there for one year. I believe it was one year, yeah. Then, I went back the next year in that department and then they transferred me to another part, to the central staff office at the building in Tarrant City at the time. I worked in that capacity and then, I was moved to another building and then, I went from there back to Fultondale High School. I think I worked in the central staff office for four or five years. HUNTLEY: Did you teach up there? TRIPP: No, I worked in discipline and attendance. HUNTLEY: Coming from city hall and the experiences that you had, how was Fultondale? TRIPP: Fultondale itself was ok, as far as treating you. As long as you did your work they didn&#039 ; t bother you. The Board itself was prejudice. They just would not allow you to advance. You had to do the work, but they wouldn&#039 ; t classify you so that you could make the money. It was just terrible in that area. Since I went into work as a secretary, they held me in that position. I did work like an assistant principal, but my classification changed from aide to administrative aide. Still no money. I applied several times for a secretarial position, but they didn&#039 ; t give me that. They gave me more responsibilities, like I had to deal with parents with counseling and advising kids. HUNTLEY: How old were you when you married? TRIPP: When I first married, I was 21 years old. That was a very short marriage. HUNTLEY: Where were you then? TRIPP: I was here. My last marriage I was married 26 years. HUNTLEY: Do you have children? TRIPP: No, no children. HUNTLEY: And you are a widow, correct? TRIPP: Yes. HUNTLEY: You have been very helpful. We&#039 ; ve covered a lot of territory in this hour or so. Is there anything else that you would like to share with us? TRIPP: Well, I would like to . . . I have worked in a lot of and I still work now in a lot of positions in my neighborhood and in the community for the betterment of the young people and other people in the community. I work on a lot of boards. I&#039 ; m president of my neighborhood and I work with the [inaudible] program to help the young people. I tell the young people to be helpful and to help people in wherever their need is and don&#039 ; t look for pay. In these later years parents have taught their kids you don&#039 ; t work if you don&#039 ; t get paid. That&#039 ; s the wrong attitude. When I was growing up, you did work and you don&#039 ; t take pay and you don&#039 ; t look for pay. That was . . . HUNTLEY: Secondary? TRIPP: Right. So, I just wish now that the young people would be more helpful in the community in doing what they see is needed, like picking up paper, or cutting older people&#039 ; s lawns, or whatever they can do to help the community. This is some of the things I do to help with the kids I work with. We keep up the park and we pick up the paper in the park. I always compensate them to encourage them and to have somebody to help me, because I can&#039 ; t do it all. So, I just would like to say that I am glad to be a part of the history in the &#039 ; 60s and to see where we are now and the difference in the &#039 ; 60s and this 1998. I just would love for people to be more loving as they were in the &#039 ; 60s and to learn to work together more and to love one another. And to not be misled. Learn to value a person for who they are and to treat everybody right. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s a great way to conclude. I certainly appreciate your time. You&#039 ; ve done a tremendous job. TRIPP: Well, thank you Dr. Huntley. I don&#039 ; t know, I just wanted to say a few things that were on my heart. HUNTLEY: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=HTripp1998.xml HTripp1998.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Henrietta S. Tripp Description An account of the resource Henrietta S. Tripp discusses being the first Black person hired in a clerical position at Birmingham City Hall after growing up in Marion, Alabama. She attended most mass meetings of the Movement, but did not demonstrate. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19980409T Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Slavery Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1998-04-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/2ee0444d1152af9d22591ba428b4754e.png a3f9eb850752d1c20487e2e442b5d731 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Binnie Myles Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Herman Dozier OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=HDozier1996.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Voter registration Greensboro, NC OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 April 16, 1996 Herman Dozier 19960416D 0:34:05 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project bcriohp BCRI Oral History BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Meaghan Cash Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Police brutality--United States Southern Christian Leadership Conference Voter registration Greensboro, NC Herman Dozier Binnie Myles Video 1:|22(2)|39(4)|67(11)|88(10)|105(13)|125(5)|139(6)|159(2)|176(7)|191(12)|209(12)|233(10)|244(7)|256(8)|266(6)|276(11)|293(15)|307(8)|326(4)|336(4)|351(15)|364(10)|383(2)|395(2)|413(2)|427(8)|446(2)|457(2)|477(5)|498(9)|514(5)|527(1)|539(4) 0 https://youtu.be/72w6Fzux9Xc YouTube video English 14 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mr. Herman Dozier for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Mr. Dozier is introduced. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 25 Growing Up in Birmingham Mr. Dozier, did you grow up in Birmingham? Mr. Dozier discusses where he was born and moving around with his mother. Pratt City ; Smithfield Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Miles College 53 Early Education and High School Where did you got to school as a youngster? Mr. Dozier discusses his time at various schools throughout his youth. Elementary School ; Football ; Lincoln elementary ; Parker High ; Smithfield ; South Pratt ; Tuggle African Americans--Segregation ; American Youth Football ; Early childhood education ; Legion Field (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Track and field 218 Experiencing Segregation at School What about segregation then? Mr. Dozier discusses some of his experience with segregation during his time in high school. Football African Americans--Segregation ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Legion Field (Birmingham, Ala.) 311 Mother's Work and Relationship with Mother Let's go back--we were talking about parents working for the White man or White families. Mr. Dozier discusses his mother's position as an elevator operator and his discussions with his mother about racial issues and the racial slurs used by White people. Brown-Marx building ; Racial Slurs America--Race relations ; Birmingham (Ala.) 496 Community Life in the Smithfield Area What about the community where you lived, where you lived in Smithfield--do you recall anything about the Movement or things that happened in the neighborhood, the NAACP or SCLC or church gatherings or hearing adults talk about anything? Mr. Dozier explains his experience with parts of the Movement in his childhood community. SCLC ; Smithfield Civil rights movement ; NAACP Collection (Library of Congress) ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 570 Life Shortly After High School and Early Involvement with the Movement When you grew up and you finished high school, did you continue on and go to college or the military? Mr. Dozier explains his early involvement with the Movement right after high school. Jail ; Phillips High School Birmingham (Ala.) ; Chicago (Ill.) ; Greensboro (N.C.) ; King, Coretta Scott, 1927-2006 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Montgomery (Ala.). Police Department ; Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 ; Police brutality--United States ; School integration--United States ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference ; Voter registration--United States 932 Hearing Dr. King Speak for the First Time You said that you had heard Dr. King speak and you knew then that he was a wonderful person. Mr. Dozier explains his time first hearing Dr. King speak and also his mother's reaction to learning of her son's involvement with the Movement. Speech King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 1039 Experience with Voter Registration and the SCLC in Marion, AL Tell us about some of the things that you saw in Marion. Mr. Dozier discusses his time in Marion, AL and the things he experienced while working with the federal registrars. Marion (Al) ; Poverty ; Voting Rights Alabama ; United States. Voting Rights Act of 1965 ; Voter registration--United States 1230 Thinking Back on Time in the Movement and Experience with the Klan When you were growing up and you look back at the Movement and the way things were. Mr. Dozier discusses his thoughts on the Movement and his experience with the Klan and police brutality in Grenada, Mississippi. Death Squad ; Marching ; Protests African Americans--Religion ; Civil rights demonstrations--United States ; Civil rights movement ; Greenville (Miss.) ; Grenada (Miss.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Police brutality--United States ; Voter registration--United States 1500 Looking Back on the Movement What about looking at the Movement then and looking at it now, do you think that there are any things that should have been done differently? Mr. Dozier discusses his thoughts on how the Movement was carried out and comments on the Movement as it was occurring in the 1990s. Andy Young ; Operation Bread Basket ; PUSH King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 1729 Sharing Memories from the Movement with Family Members What about memorabilia or anything you had left from he days of sitting at the counter or coming to Birmingham or in Montgomery, do you have any mementos, and papers or objects that you've kept all these years? Mr. Dozier discusses sharing memories from his time in the Movement with family members. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Montgomery (Ala.) 1828 Final Comments on the Movement, Experience in Grenada, Miss., and Closing of the Interview Is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wanted to share before we close out? Mr. Dozier gives his final comments on the Movement and closes the interview with some advice for the younger generations. Education ; Parchment Prison ; State Troopers Civil rights movement ; Grenada (Miss.) ; Mississippi State Penitentiary ; Police brutality--United States ; Voter registration--United States Oral History Herman Dozier discusses how refusing to move from a lunch counter in Greensboro, NC lead him to devote his life to the Movement. He worked with SCLC and demonstrated all around the South. MYLES: This is an interview with Mr. Herman Dozier for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Binnie Myles. We are at Miles College and today is April 16, 1996 at 2:00 p.m. Mr. Dozier, did you grow up in Birmingham? DOZIER: Yes, I did. MYLES: Where were you born in Alabama? DOZIER: I was born in Pratt City at the hospital there on the Southside. MYLES: How long did you live in the Pratt City area? DOZIER: From the time I was born until, I think I was the age of five. MYLES: And then you moved? DOZIER: I moved with my mother to the Smithfield area. MYLES: Where did you go to school as a youngster? Do you remember any of your situations during school time? DOZIER: Yes, I went to South Pratt. When we moved to Smithfield I started going to Lincoln Elementary under Professor R. C. Johnson. I remember Lincoln very well because he used to have us bring bricks to school. MYLES: Bricks? DOZIER: Yes, the students had to help build the walkway. The kids would bring a brick to school every day. And, I would also at Carrie Tuggles up under Professor Winston. MYLES: When you brought the bricks to school at Lincoln, did the older men put the walkway in or were the children allowed to assist? DOZIER: No. The adults built it. But it was a project that Professor Johnson wanted the kids to do to say &quot ; I helped. I did this.&quot ; I noticed, I&#039 ; ve been back to visit and the sidewalks are still there. MYLES: Is your brick still there? DOZIER: I hope so. MYLES: You are a part of history then. Then you went to Tuggle? DOZIER: Yes. MYLES: How was Tuggle for you? DOZIER: It was okay in a way. But, like now, you can&#039 ; t whip the kids in school. Wimp, we called him Wimp. He had a way of whipping us when we do wrong. MYLES: Was that the principal or the teacher? DOZIER: Yes the principal. MYLES: What was his name? DOZIER: Professor Winston. He would line you up and he would go down the line with a little strap and I used to hate that. So, I didn&#039 ; t care too much for Tuggle. MYLES: So, does that mean you were a very active little boy? DOZIER: Yes, as all kids are, but I think I was a little more than some of them. MYLES: And, then you left Tuggle, where did you go then? DOZIER: When I left Tuggle, I went to Parker High. Well, from Parker Annex and, then from the Annex to the main building. MYLES: Do you have any recollections of things that happened while you were at Parker? Of course, that was during segregation. DOZIER: Oh, yes. I guess I was more active in the athletic field. I was a track runner and also a football player for Parker. MYLES: What about when you would play ball and football and, I guess the games were at Legion Field? DOZIER: Yes. MYLES: What about segregation then? Did you notice anything any different -- a lot of things that were different as it relates to playing ball and the crowds and traveling back and forth? DOZIER: Well, for one thing I noticed we could only go to Legion Field at certain times. When the Whites are using the field, Blacks could go, but they would have to sit way up top. You couldn&#039 ; t sit down at the bottom where you could really see anything. They would let you come in and you would have to stay there until you were ready to leave. The Whites would go out one way and you would go out the other. MYLES: Why do you think they did it that way? DOZIER: You know, I used to wonder about that and I asked my parents about it. My grandmother, whom I love very dearly, she told me this is something that the White man feels that he is inferior. MYLES: That the Black male was inferior? DOZIER: That the Black man was inferior compared to him, yet and still Blacks had to go into the Whites home and work for little or nothing. I couldn&#039 ; t understand all this until I grew up. I grew up into this system where you could lay down at night and wake up and hear a bomb go off. Someone&#039 ; s home is blown up. Some Black person&#039 ; s home. I never had the opportunity to see the Klan&#039 ; s in their sheets until I was older. MYLES: Let&#039 ; s go back to -- we were talking about parents working for the White man or White families. You were telling me that your mother worked in downtown Birmingham. DOZIER: Right. MYLES: What did she do? DOZIER: She was an elevator operator at the Brown-Marx Building. MYLES: Did she ever tell you any of the stories or situations that would happen or conversations that people would have when they would get on the elevator? Because, of course, her being an elevator operator, they probably thought that she didn&#039 ; t count because she was a Black woman. DOZIER: I don&#039 ; t know. My mother was a very strong Black woman and she never tried to discuss anything to me unless someone would ask. Other than that she very seldom would discuss it. But, she always told me whatever I do, to hold my head up. That I am somebody. I loved her for that. No matter what I did, she still loved me. She worked hard, I&#039 ; ll grant you that. She worked very hard in order to put me in school and take care of me because my father and my mother wasn&#039 ; t together, so I was reared by my mother for a while. And, then I went to stay with my father later on in years. MYLES: So, did you ever overhear any conversations when you used to go to the Brown-Marx Building if you went to the work with your mom or went to visit her down there -- conversations that some of the White passengers on the elevator would have. DOZIER: I can recall one year my mother came home and she was very upset. I asked her about it. She was saying about how Whites were calling the other Blacks &quot ; Niggers&quot ; and this kind of upset her very much. I was wondering why. She said, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t worry. Just remember they will call you these names. That don&#039 ; t mean you have to be what they call you.&quot ; I said, &quot ; What is the word &#039 ; Nigger&#039 ; &quot ; , because I wanted to know. MYLES: What age were you then? DOZIER: I think I was around 8 or 9. MYLES: And you didn&#039 ; t know what that word meant? DOZIER: I knew what they would call me, but I didn&#039 ; t know what it really meant and why. She explained it to me. MYLES: What did she say? DOZIER: That when they first brought us from Africa as slaves that had found the Blacks. There is a river that runs through Africa, called the Nile. And, at that time the White man couldn&#039 ; t say &#039 ; Nigger&#039 ; he said, &#039 ; the Niger&#039 ; . And, it went from &#039 ; Niger&#039 ; to &#039 ; Nigger&#039 ; . And, these things she taught me and as I grew up, then I started reading books, because my aunt, who was a school teacher used to bring me books and she would explain different things about it. And, this is why, as I grew up, then I knew who I was, even until today. MYLES: What about the community where you lived, where you lived in Smithfield -- do you recall anything about the Movement or things that happened in the neighborhood, the NAACP or SCLC or church gatherings or hearing adults talk about anything? DOZIER: In coming up at that time, the SCLC was not in the focus at all. In the neighborhood that I grew up in, the Whites would say a second-class neighborhood, but it was a lot of doctors and teachers, principals all in that area. MYLES: But for the African-American community that would have been a very affluent community? DOZIER: Oh, yes. I recall Dr. Plump, Dr. Belgium, Professor Johnson who lived directly across in front of us. A lot of schoolteachers. My aunt, who taught school and her husband was a principal. So, I grew up in a pretty tight family. MYLES: Do you recall any meetings or NAACP gatherings in the community where those people in the Movement? DOZIER: Well, if they had it, I didn&#039 ; t know anything about it at that time. MYLES: When you grew up and as you finished high school, did you continue on and go to college or the military? Did you go to work then? DOZIER: When I come out of high school, I was already involved in the Civil Rights Movement at the time because I had taken a trip to Chicago with my cousin. And, on my way back, instead of coming back to Birmingham, I was going to meet a friend of mine in North Carolina, which was Greensboro. That&#039 ; s where they had the sit-in at the lunch counter and I happen to be there in the restaurant on that particular day. I was sitting there also, when they arrested everybody that was sitting there. They had asked everybody to move and the young college kids didn&#039 ; t move, so I didn&#039 ; t move either. MYLES: So you were sitting at the counter also? DOZIER: I was sitting at the counter, so when I went to jail with them just as well. When I got out, I left and went back to Birmingham. I was telling my mom what had happened. MYLES: How was that day for you, sitting at that counter? Were you afraid when they took you to jail? Share with us what that was like. DOZIER: It was sort of a frightening thing because I had never been involved in anything like this. The first thing they came and told us was &quot ; Nigger, didn&#039 ; t the White woman tell you to get up?&quot ; Well, I didn&#039 ; t say anything, but the young man who spoke said, &quot ; Well, I paid my money and I think if I pay my money, I&#039 ; m able to sit anywhere that I pay my money. She took my money.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Yeah, she may have taken your money, but that didn&#039 ; t mean for you to sit here.&quot ; And, he asked us to leave so no one moved, so they snatched us off the seat and instead of walking us, they drug us out the door. What we called going limp and, they carried us to the jail house there in Greensboro, North Carolina until one of the NAACP lawyers got us out. MYLES: So was it overnight or several hours? DOZIER: No. I think I stayed in there 1 or 2 nights, if I can recall. MYLES: Were you frightened while you were in there? DOZIER: Oh, yes. MYLES: What kind of treatment did you get? DOZIER: I knew what the White man was doing to the Blacks at that time. I had heard so much about Blacks, in North Carolina and what had happened. Sure, I was afraid. I would be a fool if I said I wasn&#039 ; t. MYLES: So, when you got out, what happened then? DOZIER: Well, when I got out, I returned to Birmingham. But, when I returned to Birmingham, Birmingham was heated up. When I said &#039 ; heated up&#039 ; with Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth. He was trying to integrate Phillips High School with his kids. So, I joined in with Fred and we walked to Phillips High School, although we had rocks thrown at us and Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth was beaten, I saw him beaten merciful with chains, kicked and drug. But, that didn&#039 ; t stop him because, I have to give him credit, the man had guts. He was determined to not let them turn him around. He continued to go until they accepted his kids into the school. MYLES: What age were you about that time? DOZIER: I think I was about 17. MYLES: So, is that how you initially got started with the Movement, you were in Carolina and just happened to be sitting at the counter? DOZIER: That, and when I came back to Birmingham Fred had his thing going. Well, I have a cousin that lives in Montgomery. Montgomery had the bus boycott going on. I, and some more friends of mine went to Montgomery to lend a hand any way we could. That&#039 ; s when we started doing the pooling, hauling people from one place to another because that&#039 ; s when I first heard Dr. King speak. I didn&#039 ; t know who Dr. King was and that&#039 ; s when I first heard him speak. I said to myself that this man here is a great man. Now, I don&#039 ; t know why I said it, but I did. And, I listened very carefully to what he was saying when he was telling the people not to ride the buses. If you have to work, walk or carpool. Well, at that time the police in Montgomery started stopping every car that had Blacks in it hauling them home, harassing them. And, so, that didn&#039 ; t stop them because they said if we can&#039 ; t ride, we&#039 ; ll walk. But, a lot of the elderly guys there continued to carry people to and from in their cars. So, I left after that and went back to Birmingham and I stayed in Birmingham for a while until the bus boycott was over. Now, once that was over, there was a gentlemen from SCLC, Dr. Randolph Blackwell, he&#039 ; s dead now. He was one of Dr. King&#039 ; s advisors. He and I were talking and he asked me how would I like to join the group. At first, I really didn&#039 ; t think anything about it, in that sense. So, he kept talking to me. And, finally I said okay. And, the first place that he sent me was to Coretta King&#039 ; s home town in Marion. That&#039 ; s where I started on the voter registration drive. MYLES: You said that you had heard Dr. King speak and you knew then that he was a wonderful person. What was his speech like? What was he talking about? DOZIER: It was just a speech that I had never heard before. The tone of his speaking sort of goes through you. It&#039 ; s the way that he was speaking. I had listened to a lot of ministers speak, but never like this. I don&#039 ; t know, the man had something that could go through you. Either it would make you move or you would have to leave. MYLES: So, what did your mom think about all this involvement? DOZIER: I didn&#039 ; t let my mother know. When my mother found out about that, I had been involved in the Movement for five years. MYLES: How did she not know? I mean if you were going to meetings, doing different things. DOZIER: When they sent me to Marion, my mother didn&#039 ; t know I was going. I just told her that I was getting ready to leave town. And, I went to Marion. When she saw me again, I told her because I had on a uniform that one of the guys in the Movement had made for SCLC. A young man by the name of R. B. Cottonreader. He had made a jean outfit with a hand on the pocket, white and black. So, I had the outfit on when I came home. My mother thought I was in the Air Force because it was blue. When I finally explained to her, she said, &quot ; Lord, my son has gone crazy.&quot ; But, I explained to her what was going on and, I think going to Marion really opened my eyes because I saw things in Marion that I had never seen before in my life. MYLES: Tell us about some of the things that you saw in Marion. DOZIER: Well, number one, where I was staying. The lady was paying a large sum of money for a little shack that she was staying in. Where you could look through the roof and see the sun or see the moon at night when you were lying down. And, it really hurt my heart to see this. And, as I went through Marion and saw how a lot of Blacks were living, all of them weren&#039 ; t living the same, but yet and still to see those who were really in poverty, that changed my whole life all the way around. And, from then, I gave my life to the Movement. MYLES: Did it make you feel sad and angry and hurt and helpless and all those emotions? DOZIER: Yes. That&#039 ; s why I worked as hard as I did to try to get our Blacks registered to vote. We brought in the federal registrars to Marion and we started registering the Blacks by the hundreds. MYLES: What reason do you think some African-Americans give for either, well, definitely not being a registered voter and, then those that are registered to vote, that don&#039 ; t vote? DOZIER: Wait a minute. Repeat that again now? MYLES: What do you think about people that are registered to vote and they don&#039 ; t vote? And, then African-Americans who are not registered to vote. Do you think that&#039 ; s okay or do you think that we all should be registered voters and use the power of vote to make a difference in things getting better? DOZIER: I wonder about some that is registered and don&#039 ; t vote. And, I worry about the ones who have not registered. And, as far as power is concerned. Yes, the voting rights has a lot of power because I talk with people that haven&#039 ; t registered. I&#039 ; ve had people to tell me, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m not going to register.&quot ; And, I said, &quot ; Why?&quot ; They said, &quot ; Because I don&#039 ; t see anything I&#039 ; m going to get out of it.&quot ; I said, &quot ; That&#039 ; s the problem right there.&quot ; You see, I look at it this way. If you don&#039 ; t register, then you have no voice. But, if you register, then you have a voice to speak and say who you want to do this and who you don&#039 ; t want. You have that power. That&#039 ; s what it&#039 ; s about. Because we have fought so long for our Blacks to become registered. But yet and still there are some that are too lazy and to trifling to get up and go where it only takes a few minutes. In and out. We go in department stores and stay all day shopping for this White man&#039 ; s good, but yet and still we can&#039 ; t go for two minutes to the polling place. It&#039 ; s something wrong. But, yet and still, those who don&#039 ; t vote, whatever comes along, any of the goodies, they are the first ones that got their hand out. MYLES: When you were growing up and you look back at the Movement and the way things were. You talked about the Klan just a little bit, but do you look back at some of the things that you went through and say, &quot ; Boy, I don&#039 ; t know how I did that.&quot ; And, share with us the one situation that you mentioned about getting your leg broken. DOZIER: You know, I look back at that quite a bit. A lot of them say you shouldn&#039 ; t look back. But, sometime I look back in order for me to realize where I&#039 ; m going. And, looking back and seeing what the situation is in the 90s, I wonder was it worth what we were doing compared to what&#039 ; s going on now. And, right at this moment, we can&#039 ; t put this on the Klan. We can&#039 ; t put it on nobody but ourselves. You see, when they took religion out of the schools, then they started hurting the Blacks. MYLES: You think religion kept us together? DOZIER: Religion kept us together. That kept our families together down through the years. This is what kept us together -- the churches that we have throughout this country where the Black religions did this on their own. They didn&#039 ; t ask the White man for nothing. They did it. Our Black colleges. This is why we were out there struggling in order for the young child to be able to go to school so he can have an education and he can become anybody that he or she wants to be. There&#039 ; s nothing out there that we can&#039 ; t be. MYLES: What about the Klan and your involvement when you got your leg broken. DOZIER: Oh, boy. What can you say about the Klan that one doesn&#039 ; t know about. I&#039 ; ve had a bad experience with the Klan, that&#039 ; s true. You see my leg was broken by the Klan where they put my leg on a curb and had one of the state troopers jumped upon my leg and crushed it. MYLES: What age were you when that happened? DOZIER: I was in my 20s. MYLES: What reasoning did they give for doing that? DOZIER: Demonstration. They were saying that we were agitators. We were in Grenada doing voter registration drive in Grenada, Mississippi with Dr. King. In fact, we were marching from Memphis, Tennessee. On the James Meredith. You see James Meredith was shot on Highway 51. SCLC, at that time, was about to fold, but behind the shooting of James Meredith, that brought SCLC back together. And, so, Dr. King sent for the marchers to come from Memphis. Well, I was in a group that we called the &quot ; Death Squad.&quot ; It was 15 of us. We were the first 15 to go in any town before anybody get there. MYLES: And you just went into kind of just see how things were? DOZIER: Right. But when we marched down Highway 51, we went through a little town Grenada. Well, in Grenada Dr. King spoke. This is the first time I saw a Black woman, she said that she didn&#039 ; t know how old she was. Dr. King stood on a statute downtown in the park and the lady said, &quot ; I been here all my life and I don&#039 ; t know how old I am.&quot ; She said, &quot ; But, they say I&#039 ; m ??&quot ; and she called her number. She said, &quot ; But that&#039 ; s the first time I ever seen a Black man touch that statue.&quot ; MYLES: Really. DOZIER: And, Dr. King stood on the statue and preached. Now this was a very scary night for me because we all stood around Dr. King on the statue also. And, the Whites had gathered by the thousands. MYLES: And you didn&#039 ; t know if something was going to happen? DOZIER: That&#039 ; s right. And, Dr. King, when we left Grenada, we went to a little place called Greenville, Mississippi. That&#039 ; s where the man that killed Medgar Evers was from, and he was there that night when Stokely Carmichael spoke. He and Stokely had a fight. They locked Stokely up. But, Dr. King said that &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to send some back to Grenada.&quot ; He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to let Grenada be the home base.&quot ; MYLES: What about looking at the Movement then and looking at it now, do you think that are any things that should have been done differently? Or, did everything go fine? DOZIER: At the time, everything -- the Blacks were showing the power during that time. And, to look at it now, we have forgotten from which we came because so many have the jobs now, sitting behind the desks, in an air-conditioned building, soft cushioned seats. We have forgotten how we got there and what it took to get there. MYLES: So you don&#039 ; t think people are taking (Inaudible). DOZIER: They are not taking it (Inaudible). Because right now, there could be someone out there that need help. We are so big now that we ride in our cars and we will pass all by that person who really need help, because we don&#039 ; t want to be seen with that person. MYLES: What about today with the Movement? Do you think anything should be done different? DOZIER: Yes, I do. MYLES: What? DOZIER: We need a true leader because if we don&#039 ; t our Black sisters and brothers are going further back than they have ever been in history. MYLES: Do you have any idea of who that person could be, in your own opinion? DOZIER: No. MYLES: Is it something that you would like to tackle for yourself? DOZIER: I am a spokesman for the Movement in my own way. But to tackle what Dr. King did, I don&#039 ; t think that I could fill his shoes. It takes a mighty, mighty strong man to fill his shoes. From what I have seen that man do, although in the Movement we did the same thing in a sense, he just did a little more. As we say, he was another black Moses. They don&#039 ; t come too often. Right now, we have a bickering amongst ourselves. MYLES: Do you think that&#039 ; s what keeps us... DOZIER: This is what&#039 ; s keeping us divided right now because nobody knows who they want to look up to because we have gone too many separate ways. Before Dr. King was killed, I was at a meeting once and everybody was saying that they would never be involved in certain things like going to Washington and working. And, who was the first one -- Andy Young. He became one of the ambassadors. MYLES: But others don&#039 ; t feel that way? DOZIER: No. And, so Jesse went his way with Operation Bread Basket, which he went from there to PUSH. Hosea Williams going his separate way. Abernathy is gone. MYLES: So it&#039 ; s just so divisive? DOZIER: It gets out there. MYLES: Do you think it will have to be a new person altogether? DOZIER: It got to be a whole new structure of SCLC in order to bring it back because right now we have organizations all over the United States and nobody is doing nothing. MYLES: What about memorabilia or anything that you had left from the days of sitting at the counter or coming to Birmingham or in Montgomery, do you have any mementos, any papers or objects that you&#039 ; ve kept all these years? DOZIER: I had, my mother was keeping them for me, but after the home was blown up, a lot of my stuff was misplaced. In fact, I was talking to my mother about it the other night because she was at church when the house blew up and everything was destroyed. So, the only thing I have left now, a friend of mine has a book with a picture of me in it. That&#039 ; s all. MYLES: But you have the memories? DOZIER: I have the memories in here. MYLES: And you shared that with your children? DOZIER: Yes. MYLES: Can they believe? DOZIER: Well, at first a lot of them didn&#039 ; t want to believe that I was working for Dr. King. They were very curious. But, after talking with them, and, then some saw me on TV. They said, &quot ; I saw you on TV or I saw you in Dr. King&#039 ; s march.&quot ; By that, they started drawing closer to me. But, my own kids I have taught them from babies up what was really like for the struggle and what we had to do in order to make it better for them and I like I tell my daughter, because I have all girls. I tell my daughter to stand up, be a woman, have a strong mind and a will because you can do anything that you want to do. MYLES: And you have the world to do it? DOZIER: That&#039 ; s right. MYLES: Is there anything that I didn&#039 ; t ask you that you wanted to share before we close out? DOZIER: Well, I guess, it&#039 ; s so many things that I could go on and on with the Movement. I realize I lost a lot of my friends that was in the Movement -- they&#039 ; ve gone on. I could name them. Leon Hall, Lester Hankerson these people were real close to me. Lester was killed. Leon died. Lester was the young man in Grenada where the state troopers beat Lester unmerciful, broke his arm, cracked his skull and they put us all in jail in Grenada and blood was running out of his body like wild fire. We tried to talk to the sheriff and everything to let us get out. And, I told the sheriff, I said, &quot ; If you just let us out, we will leave Mississippi and never come back.&quot ; MYLES: But they wouldn&#039 ; t do it? DOZIER: They wouldn&#039 ; t do it, but that wasn&#039 ; t the point. All we wanted to do was get Lester out of the jail. We knew that we weren&#039 ; t going to leave Mississippi because we were there and we had a job to do. But, they refused to let us out. They carried us all to Parchment Prison. They put each one of us in a car a piece and they took all the kids that were with us and put them on a cattle truck with all the manure and stuff in the truck. They just threw them in there like cattle and they carried them to Parchment. We stayed there until Washington sent orders for them to turn us loose. Now, that was a moment that I never will forget because it was a sad moment, because a lot of people got hurt. MYLES: What would you say, in closing, to youngsters today about not just voting, but being involved and being involved in a positive way? DOZIER: What I want to say to a lot of young people, which I try to do everyday is to tell them to stay in school and get an education. Because standing on the corner will not get them but two things: jail or hell. This is why I begged them to stay in school because the opportunity is there. If you don&#039 ; t want the teacher to teach you, then you need to leave the school because this is what they are there for -- to teach you so you can learn. It&#039 ; s up to you, whether you want to learn. There is no excuse. And, I say to all my Black sisters and brothers, please stay off the corners, stay in school, mind your parents and you&#039 ; ll have a better life. MYLES: Well, we certainly thank you for coming out and sharing with us today, all this great information. DOZIER: Thank you very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=HDozier1996.xml HDozier1996.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herman Dozier Description An account of the resource Herman Dozier discusses how refusing to move from a lunch counter in Greensboro, NC lead him to devote his life to the Movement. He worked with SCLC and demonstrated all around the South. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19960416D Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Police brutality--United States Southern Christian Leadership Conference Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996-04-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/31ab09542bbe2f778869e287d8eb3df3.jpg 70404da753944a5383adaf5ef7cf28c9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Betty Hanson Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed James Head OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JHead1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) Gaston, A.G. Smyre, Sid OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 June 30, 1995 James Head Interviewed on June 30, 1995 19950630H 0:58:11 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Laura Benton Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Small business--Public relations Korean War, 1950-1953 Connor, Theophilus Eugene (Bull) Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) Gaston, A.G. Smyre, Sid James Head Betty Hanson Video 1:|4(5)|17(2)|25(7)|37(5)|49(2)|57(4)|72(3)|82(6)|89(11)|100(9)|110(3)|119(9)|129(7)|144(1)|157(3)|169(15)|182(7)|190(7)|201(15)|213(10)|221(4)|234(4)|242(8)|252(16)|262(17)|271(12)|281(4)|289(5)|300(6)|320(6)|330(7)|341(13)|353(14)|368(7)|382(10)|390(7)|415(5)|425(9)|436(6)|444(8)|455(3)|465(14)|477(13)|493(4)|504(7)|517(12)|529(1)|542(3)|550(7)|564(5)|575(8)|585(4)|596(14)|610(12)|623(3)|634(6)|643(1) 0 https://youtu.be/vK6_O2kpaM8 YouTube video English 0 Introduction of Interview Mr. Head as we record this, this is June 30, 1995, the Southern Baptist just this past week passed a resolution that in effect apologized for the social sins of the past - segregation, slavery. You have been a very active member and participant in Southern Baptist affairs. You're still a Southern Baptist. Betty Hanson begins interviewing James Head at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 37 The Southern Baptist Church Resolution of 1995 Mr. Head as we record this, this is June 30, 1995, the Southern Baptist just this past week passed a resolution that in effect apologized for the social sins of the past - segregation, slavery. Mr. Head talks about the Southern Baptist Convention's resolution to apologize for social sins of the past including segregation and slavery. He discusses the Birmingham Baptist college, Samford University, and its decision to admit the first black girl. He talks about the Southern Baptist Conventions plans to improve upon black and white relations within the Baptist church. He discusses integration beyond the church ; in housing, health matters, educational opportunities, and in the athletic arena. African Americans--Segregation ; Blacks--Segregation ; Samford University ; Slavery and the church--Baptists, [Catholic Church, etc.] Southern Baptist Convention 33.465009, -86.793223 17 Samford University https://www.bcri.org/ The Homepage for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute 420 Family Upbringing and Thoughts about Race Relations Now let ask you, let's go back to the beginning. Why were you different than some of the people that you worked with? Head discusses how he grew up in a southern, white household. His mother was prejudiced toward the black people and he rejected that mindset. Some of his life experiences gave him perspective on race relations. Gaston, A. G. (Arthur George), 1892- ; Pickens County (Ala.) ; Young, Whitney M. Race relations 626 The Ku Klux Klan &quot ; ...I was taking on a new job in 1923, and a couple of years after I had started out working I tried to cross 1st Avenue and 20th street at noon one day.&quot ; Mr. Head remembers seeing a Ku Klux Klan parade. He knew of a case with the Jefferson County health inspector, Mr. Dowling, in which the man was tarred and feathered because he threatened to shut down dairy farms due to a suspicion of contaminant in the milk. It was not known, but was suggested that many dairy farmers were members of the Ku Klux Klan. Mr. Head also talks about an horrific act that took place in Eastlake in which two white men castrated a young black man in order to be granted initiation into that Klan Chapter. Dairy farmers ; Eastlake ; Initiation ; Jefferson County (Ala.) ; Jefferson County (Ala.). Department of Health ; Pinson Valley ; Typhoid fever Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) 33.688766, -86.677823 17 Pinson Valley, Alabama 33.549655, -86.730113 17 Eastlake, Birmingham, Alabama 854 Whites Fear Opposing the KKK I want to tell you something, Ms. Hanson, many young men would be influenced by those kind of episodes in their young life. Head discusses how many white people were afraid to stand up against the Ku Klux Klan for fear of losing their jobs. Many white people knew that the acts that were being done toward blacks in the community were inhumane, but they did nothing about it out of fear. Mr. Head talks about what made him different from many white people during the time of the Civil Rights Movement. Race relations ; Small business--Public relations 985 Unsuccessful Attempts to Editorialize the Climate of Prejudice Okay, let's talk about the climate. You are part of that time Mr. Head, that's the beauty of it and yes indeed you are a man of courage you might just as well live with that accolade because it's going to hang with you to eternity. Mr. Head tried to influence his friend to publish an editorial about the injustices being done through the KKK and to the African American community. Newspapers would not publish the content for fear of losing subscriptions and money. He tried to talk to ministers who were also afraid of losing membership if they spoke about racial injustice. Lawyers did not want to speak out for fear of losing clients, as well. Many people were aware of racial injustice and segregation, but were afraid to speak out. Mr. Head experienced boycotts and loss of clientele in his own business because of his stand for equality. African Americans--Segregation ; Blacks--Segregation ; Gaston, A.G. ; Hanson, Sr., Victor ; News in print Editorials ; Public relations and law ; Small business--Public relations 1396 Race Relations in Korean War vs. Race Relations in the United States That's an interesting thing because I spoke at their invitation to a group of young Black people who were interested in getting Whitney Young to come to Birmingham to help reorganize the Urban League that had been eliminated because certain people threatened to withhold their support from the community chest if the Urban League was a part of it. Mr. Head describes a conversation he had with a young African American veteran. The veteran was surprised to see how badly race relations had gotten in Birmingham after he returned from the Korean War. He described his company comprised of black and white soldiers and how they were friends. He was appalled to come back to the States and find so much fear between races. Miles College ; National Urban League ; Young, Whitney M. America--Race relations ; Korean War, 1950-1953 1557 Senator Sid Smyre Confronted about Segregation Issues ; Smyre Takes Positive Action So I went to one of the downtown churches and I went in to talk to the bishop. Mr. Head and A.G. Gaston met with state senator Sid Smyre to discuss segregation issues in Birmingham. Senator Smyre made positive changes two days later, integrating elevators, drinking fountains, court house restrooms, and enforcing better behavior toward blacks registering to vote. Sid Smyre tried to use his influence to persuade business to make positive changes toward desegregation. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Freedom Riders ; Gaston, A. G. ; Rotary International. Convention ; Smyre, Sid ; White Citizen Council Desegregation 2215 The Birth and Evolution of Birmingham, Alabama &amp ; the Steel Industry You see, I think Mr. Head, in doing an oral history of our town, we have to look a little bit at the climate that we all were part of and that climate produced change. Mr. Head describes how Birmingham became a hub for the steel industry. The railroad as well as the iron ore and coal resources brought the steel industry to Alabama. U.S. Steel invested interest. Tennessee Coal, Iron and Railway Company was important to the steel industry in Birmingham. Many of the top officials of the steel industry became leaders and builders of the city, including the construction of Lloyd Nolan Hospital. Crawford, George Gordon ; Lloyd Nolan Hospital ; Steel industry and trade ; Tennessee Coal, Iron, and Railroad Company ; U.S. Steel ; Vulcan Materials Company Birmingham (Ala.) 2584 Bull Connor ...They owned the sheriff, there never would have been a Bull Connor except for TCI. Mr. Head talks about Bull Connor, the police commissioner for Birmingham, and how he got his position through his connection to the Tennessee Coal, Iron and Railway Corporation (TCI). Many of the leaders and elected officials spurred from TCI. Mr. Head describes what is was like being state chairman of the Democratic party supporting John F. Kennedy for President. Democratic Party (Ala.) ; Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 ; Tennessee Coal, Iron, and Railroad Company Connor, Theophilus Eugene (Bull) 3353 Close of Interview Mr. Head, thank you. You've led a wonderful life. Mr. Head closes by commenting about the Baptist church's resolution to put away the prejudices of the past. He states that he believes it will take actions more than words to prove a change of attitude and relationship between races. Baptist Resolution Oral History James Head discusses his experience as a white businessman trying to combat racial injustice in 1960's Birmingham. He worked with journalists, politicians and Movement leaders try to change the social climate of injustice. HANSON: Mr. Head as we record this, this is June 30, 1995, the Southern Baptist just this past week passed a resolution that in effect apologized for the social sins of the past - segregation, slavery. You have been a very active member and participant in Southern Baptist affairs. You&#039 ; re still a Southern Baptist. HEAD: Yes, I had not been as active in the Southern Baptist affairs as I have local Baptist affairs. I&#039 ; m still a member of the Southside Baptist Church, have been for 55 years or something like that and I&#039 ; ve tried to have some effect on the things that I believed were improper for Christian religious body to be engaged in segregation. HANSON: Using that word - improper - segregation, slavery, how do you feel about this resolution that&#039 ; s just been passed? HEAD: It wasn&#039 ; t as big as of surprise to me as it might have been to some people. I&#039 ; d been on the board of trustees at Samford University for thirty-five, forty years. I was chairman of moving the college from Eastlake to Lakeshore Drive. We had an application shortly after we started building that nice, beautiful campus now from a Black woman who wanted to enter the school, and everybody was extremely nervous about it. We finally after much deliberation and several meetings of different groups, executive committee and academic committee and so forth, the amazing thing was that the trustees met and a peanut farmer from Enterprise, Alabama, red-headed, freckled face said, &quot ; Well does her grades meet the academic qualification?&quot ; They said, &quot ; Yes.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Then what are we talking about? Why don&#039 ; t you admit her?&quot ; Now that happened forty years ago. HANSON: But now with the Southern Baptist forty years later passing this resolution, it took forty years for them to pass a resolution, and yet they had such turmoil to admit the first Black into Samford. How do you feel about it now? And then we&#039 ; ll go back. HEAD: Well, I feel good but that isn&#039 ; t really the answer to your question. The question was that that particular incident of admitting a Black girl who later became a - well, I&#039 ; ll identify her - she&#039 ; s now been elected director of the American Red Cross Nationally. That&#039 ; s the kind of person that we were debating about admitting to Samford University. The point is that we have gradually, far to slow and to gradually, we&#039 ; ve changed. Some people get impatient with change. I do. I&#039 ; m terribly impatient with change. But I&#039 ; ve had to realize that I can&#039 ; t move everyone&#039 ; s conscience at once. I just do the best I can as an ambassador, I try to have a little influence here, whatever I can do. So, the answer to your question is - I think they were very slow, maybe hundred years slow in their resolution but I&#039 ; m grateful that they passed it. I hope that some of the things that were said by pastors and leaders of the Baptist Southern Convention about what that means for the future will hold true. Because there&#039 ; s a tremendous amount of work yet to be done. HANSON: For example? HEAD: Example - housing. We Southern Baptist are the largest Protestant population in the country. And Southern Baptist in Alabama, is a large percentage of the population of this state. We should see to it that we merge our churches where there is an opportunity to merge churches - Black and White - not to eliminate Black churches - not to eliminate White churches, but to make it possible to have interconnection of congregations and exchange of Christian fellowship on a regular basis. Then we should also at the same time see to it about housing. Then at the same time, we should see to it about health conditions. Then we should also at the same time see to it that children in school have the finest opportunities to acquire an education so that they can be self-respecting and receive respect from everyone else regardless of their color or station in life and that they have something else to look forward to in this technical age rather than just playing basketball and football and some of the other great athletic sports in which they excel. That is not the only opportunity that I want to see. I want to see them take a part in everything that goes on in this country. HANSON: Mr. Head, you&#039 ; ve had a full rich life, that has given you numerous awards here in Birmingham... HEAD: I&#039 ; ve been blessed. HANSON: But you&#039 ; ve also been a very courageous man in the environment in which you lived. Now let ask you, let&#039 ; s go back to the beginning. Why were you different than some of the people that you worked with? You ran a business, but you weren&#039 ; t afraid to tie up with someone like A.G. Gaston, you weren&#039 ; t afraid to bring in a Whitney Young. Why not? Certainly, you didn&#039 ; t get applause for that. HEAD: I learned from my dear mother who lived to be 103 years old and was born and raised in Pickens County, Alabama, which is one of the poorest counties in the entire United States, she was born and raised on a plantation. Well, she was the typical Southern lady, she loved Lucy or Josephine or any Black person that she became personally associated with. She loved them, she thought, and I&#039 ; ve heard her say it many times, handed down from the good Lord. But as a group, she hated them. Now what in the Heaven&#039 ; s name can cause a thing like that to exist in a human mind. I don&#039 ; t know. It may have been fear. I&#039 ; m afraid that a great deal of what we&#039 ; ve suffered from was just fear. She lived to be 103, and I worshiped her. She lost her husband when she was young, she had four children. She moved back to Alabama, that&#039 ; s why I&#039 ; m here, in 1914 with four children under 15 years old and on her own with a little bit of insurance. Not much they didn&#039 ; t have much in those days and she raised those four children. So I say I&#039 ; m blessed, okay, but I was subjected or I learned from her how easy it was to be prejudice, I hate to use the term bigotry, I learned at her knee how this could happen in an individual. Love those that she knew and was associated with came in contact with frequently, loved them. But hated - that may be too severe, feared may not be adequate, but somewhere along the line she was a typical southern person that wanted to have really nothing to do with those that she wasn&#039 ; t closely associated with. HANSON: How did you get up to be different? Were your siblings different, or just you? HEAD: I had some early experiences. I had to go to work because of the war, took my brothers off to the war. So, I had to go carrying papers and cutting grass - that&#039 ; s fine, it was a great thing for me. I met a lot of people that I still know but I was taking on a new job in 1923, and a couple of years after I had started out working I tried to cross 1st Avenue and 20th street at noon one day. Someone said, &quot ; There&#039 ; s a parade coming.&quot ; So, I stopped. Well the Ku Klux Klan had a parade that day. They claimed that they had 7000 people in the parade, I don&#039 ; t doubt it. They also claimed that they had seven judges off of the city and county court benches, I had no way of disputing that. It horrified me because I looked upon the Ku Klux Klan as an alien organization in this country and it made a tremendous impression on me as a young man that this city could literally stop and watch 7000 people parade in white sheets and hoods. They claimed that they had every judge on the bench of the city and county in that parade. Well, as I read history and I read books about Hugo Black and others it&#039 ; s pretty well confirmed that what they said in that parade was true. Then a little bit later I remember that the Ku Klux Klan or those who they influenced out in Pinson Valley, when that was nothing but a dairy farm, all big dairies and Dr. Dowling who was the health officer of Jefferson County was struggling with Typhoid Fever that was killing babies by the dozens every summer. He finally said, &quot ; The problem is the milk. Our milk is contaminated. I am going to inspect all the dairy farms.&quot ; He did. He told them they would have to clean up the dairy farms if they were going to sell milk in this county. He as the health officer would not permit it - them operating- until they cleaned up the dairy farms. Ms. Hanson, they took him out one night tied him to a tree stripped his clothes off tarred and feathered him and gave him twenty-four hours to get out of town. HANSON: Because he called for cleaner milk? HEAD: Because he threatened to close their dairies if they didn&#039 ; t clean up their barns. HANSON: Were the members of the Klan dairy farmers? HEAD: We don&#039 ; t know it positively that it was members of the Klan. I say it was people that the Klan influenced because I had no proof of that but that&#039 ; s a fact. Later on, it is a fact that historically two young men in Eastlake wanted to become members of the Klan. In order to prove that they were deserving of being a member of the Klan. They had to perform some kind of an act that would impress the Klan Chapter that they were worthy of being members. So, they went out and the first Black man that they saw was a young man. They hit him in the head, they castrated him and they went back to the Klan headquarters to prove that they were worthy of being a member. I want to tell you something, Ms. Hanson, many young men would be influenced by those kind of episodes in their young life. HANSON: Why? HEAD: Well, I think they would consider it inhuman. They would consider it anything but Christian. They would consider it something that they didn&#039 ; t want to be a party of and I&#039 ; m convinced that a great many rebelled against that but they were afraid to say something about it for fear they&#039 ; d lose their job. They&#039 ; d become one of those agitators that was stirring up things or whatever. They were afraid and from that point on I began to recognize that fear was a real important ingredient to cause people to act as they did towards their fellow citizens. HANSON: Why weren&#039 ; t you afraid Mr. Head? HEAD: I&#039 ; m not sure about that. I&#039 ; d had a lot of people call it courage, who use that term. I don&#039 ; t believe that, I don&#039 ; t believe it was that. I believe it was something that I inherited that told me that there are certain things that are wrong that you aren&#039 ; t going to have anything to do with and if you can prevent it you must do it. I don&#039 ; t know whether that is religious influence, I&#039 ; m not sure about that. All I know is that I&#039 ; m grateful that I have it and whoever gave it to me, my mother or the good Lord, I&#039 ; m very grateful for it. Because I enjoy life I enjoy people, I haven&#039 ; t missed a meal. Oh, I&#039 ; ve had employers tell their employees, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t do business with that fellow.&quot ; I&#039 ; ve had boycotts. I want to get off the subject of me. HANSON: Okay, let&#039 ; s talk about the climate. You are part of that time Mr. Head, that&#039 ; s the beauty of it and yes indeed you are a man of courage you might just as well live with that accolade because it&#039 ; s going to hang with you to eternity. But let&#039 ; s talk a little bit about that time that the Klan marched, and of course, it was when Hugo Black marched with that, I think he even said he did, and you saw it. It changed you. Did the newspapers talk about it? Was there any editorials against it? Who did you find that you could talk to that agreed with you? HEAD: I think that&#039 ; s a very important point. Victor Hanson, Sr., had no sympathy for any of that kind of doings in that community. I went to one of my very good friends and I&#039 ; m not going to deal with individuals now because I don&#039 ; t want their family to think that I&#039 ; m criticizing a good friend - deceased - that was a good friend of mine. When I went to one of these important newspaper people who we considered ourselves close friends, I said, &quot ; Look, we can&#039 ; t tolerate this. For Heaven&#039 ; s sake, come out with an editorial, change your news copy do anything that you can to expose to this population and its readers, how horrible you think this is, you know it is. You have an obligation to do that.&quot ; He said, &quot ; What a minute Jim. You&#039 ; re going to have to quit being idealistic and become realistic.&quot ; I said, &quot ; What in the hell are you talking about.&quot ; He said, &quot ; We&#039 ; ve tried something like this a number of years ago when Mr. Victor Hanson was here. We lost 40,000 subscribers in the first two months. We resolved then that we were never going to be a damn fool about that subject again. We are not going to get involved in that. We&#039 ; ll report the incident, but we are not going to editorialize, and we&#039 ; re not going to preach to the population and our subscribers as to what they ought to do.&quot ; Now that sounds strange now because that wouldn&#039 ; t happen today. I went to some of my good friends that were in the retail business. I said, &quot ; Look this is going to kill this city. It&#039 ; s going to kill your business.&quot ; &quot ; No, now wait a minute Jim, you&#039 ; re off on the wrong foot. We cannot take a part of this. We cannot change what you say we should change about trying on clothes or lunch counters.&quot ; Even a grand friend of mine that was, again I&#039 ; m not going to mention his name, I don&#039 ; t want to embarrass his family, head of one of the largest department stores, he and I were golfing buddies, we went off on trips together, he said, &quot ; Jim, it&#039 ; s true we have a lunch counter and we don&#039 ; t allow Blacks to eat there.&quot ; But he said, &quot ; Look for Heaven&#039 ; s sake don&#039 ; t bring this thing up anymore. I value our friendship, but we can&#039 ; t afford to lose 20,000 customers and that&#039 ; s what would happen.&quot ; It was fear. I went to another one, same thing, fear of what they were going to lose, what would happen if they took a stand and buddy I want to tell you, if I had any gumption that reinforced it because it became realizing that this thing became a cancer in the whole community. The ministers, I went to one of the most beloved ministers and I said, &quot ; Doctor, look, you head one of the most prestigious churches in the state. You have more real estate and everything, in Heaven&#039 ; s name, why don&#039 ; t you say something about this ugly thing that is happening in our community. That our members want to hear from you.&quot ; &quot ; Jim, I don&#039 ; t dare do that. I understand what you&#039 ; re saying but I don&#039 ; t dare do that. If I do, I&#039 ; ll lose half of our membership.&quot ; Betty, this may sound ridiculous to you, but it was a fact. The lawyers didn&#039 ; t want to speak out for fear they would lose clients, they knew what the law was, they knew what was going to happen, they knew that school segregation and all other segregation were absolutely contrary to this country&#039 ; s concept. But they didn&#039 ; t want to be the ones to speak out for fear that they&#039 ; d lose their clients. HANSON: My question to you is, you during all of this were very outspoken, seeing people, working behind the scenes as well as taking a few public stands, still ran a business. Did you lose clients? HEAD: I have wondered about that myself. I&#039 ; ve almost taken a poll. Why was this customer loyal to me in spite of that? They didn&#039 ; t have that fear. I didn&#039 ; t lose a single retail department store customer or friend. They lost their business, but I didn&#039 ; t lose their friendship. Finally, most of them died off, I lost them. I did have some boycotts ; I did have some handouts on the streets but I&#039 ; m making a mistake I want to quit talking about my experiences. Look, we&#039 ; re beyond that now. HANSON: I know we are, but this is a oral history and it&#039 ; s necessary. I know it makes you uncomfortable, I won&#039 ; t dwell on all of those things right now or your role necessarily, but we must understand a little bit the climate in which I first knew you for example in Birmingham. How did you get to know A. G. Gaston and why? HEAD: That&#039 ; s an interesting thing because I spoke at their invitation to a group of young Black people who were interested in getting Whitney Young to come to Birmingham to help reorganize the Urban League that had been eliminated because certain people threatened to withhold their support from the community chest if the Urban League was a part of it. So, I agreed to meet with them. One of the young men that I met, I&#039 ; m sorry I can&#039 ; t recall his name, I wish I could, he was a student, I&#039 ; ve forgotten at Miles College or where, one day after the Korean War, this was in the 50s, he stopped me on 20th Street and said, &quot ; Mr. Head, can I speak to you a minute?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Sure.&quot ; And I recognized him, and I said, &quot ; How in the world are you?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m fine. I&#039 ; ve been off to Korea.&quot ; &quot ; Oh, I&#039 ; m glad you&#039 ; re back. You look fine.&quot ; He said, &quot ; I feel good.&quot ; But he said, &quot ; Let me ask you a question.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Over in Korea, I was in a company of a bunch of Alabama boys, White and Black. We exchanged cigarettes and cups of coffee and everything else in the fox holes and some of us got wounded, some of us got killed but we were buddies. Real sure enough buddies.&quot ; I listened to him standing there on 20th street and he told me about his experiences for a while then he said, &quot ; But when I got back home, I see some of those on the street and they don&#039 ; t want to stop and even say &#039 ; Hi&#039 ; . They don&#039 ; t want to be seen with me.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Why?&quot ; &quot ; I don&#039 ; t know unless they&#039 ; re just afraid that somebody will see them talking to a nigger.&quot ; Well, that touched me. I thought what in the devil, we&#039 ; re sending a boy over to fight in Korea. He got along fine with his contemporary soldiers in the fox holes, they swapped and everything and he comes back home and they want even stop to say, &quot ; Hello, how are you getting along buddy?&quot ; - for fear. So, I went to one of the downtown churches and I went in to talk to the bishop. The bishop says, &quot ; Mr. Head, I don&#039 ; t want to get involved. You&#039 ; re asking me if we can hold a meeting in our church to invite some people to come down and discuss this. I&#039 ; m sorry, I don&#039 ; t want to get involve.&quot ; I was successful, however, in contacting one of his younger rectors and through him I got permission - he got permission - to use the bishop&#039 ; s study to invite some people for a discussion of what was wrong, and what could be done about it. I approached one of the life insurance company executives and he said, &quot ; Jim, I love you. You and I are good friends but our company operates under the laws of the state legislature and I don&#039 ; t dare, they could put me out of business. I&#039 ; m not going to get involved.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I understand. I&#039 ; m sorry, I wish you would.&quot ; I went to others, pretty much same story. &quot ; Look Jim, I&#039 ; m not saying you&#039 ; re wrong, but count me out. My board (now we&#039 ; re talking about his board of directors) would say &quot ; what&#039 ; s the matter with you have you lost your mind? You&#039 ; re getting involved in this thing.&#039 ; &quot ; So, I finally found out that Sid Smyre and his wife (and he was a fellow Rotarian) had gone to Tokyo, Japan, for the International Rotary Convention. He walked out of his hotel that morning and there was a paper with headlines being sold on the steps of the hotel that buses bearing freedom riders had been raided in Birmingham on Mother&#039 ; s Day and they had been brutally... HANSON: Beaten and the bus was later burned. HEAD: And that so embarrassed him, so the newspapers said because they published that in the Birmingham paper. It embarrassed him. I heard about it the next Wednesday at the Rotary Meeting that he had been embarrassed in Tokyo by a newspaper. They were blaming a newspaper, they don&#039 ; t blame anybody else, just blaming the newspaper for publishing that and making a big to do about it. But I knew that he was probably embarrassed, truthfully. Though I knew Sid Smyre was a very powerful state senator and that he was raised out in Milton and he was undoubtedly a member of the White Citizen Council... HANSON: I was going to say that, yes. HEAD: Or some organization that&#039 ; d say, &quot ; We&#039 ; ll put up $600 a piece and send them back to Africa, if that&#039 ; s okay.&quot ; So I called Sid Smyre, and again I was trading a little bit unfairly on my affiliation as a fellow Rotarian. I&#039 ; m surprise they didn&#039 ; t kick me out. HANSON: I was going to ask you that. You ended up being president. HEAD: But they hadn&#039 ; t. They&#039 ; ve changed too Betty. HANSON: They have. HEAD: They wouldn&#039 ; t have a woman member. Now we have a number of outstanding women. They wouldn&#039 ; t have anyone but a White Caucasian male. That&#039 ; s all changed now. HANSON: Go back to trading on you. HEAD: Now to get back to Sid Smyre. So, I went to Dr. Gaston and I told him what was going on in the church and that we had these people and they had stories that we could hardly believe. Stories like a young Black woman, 18 years old, or 19, went up to register at the courthouse and the registrar said, &quot ; What&#039 ; s your name? Okay. What&#039 ; s you address? Are you married?&quot ; &quot ; No.&quot ; &quot ; Do you have any children?&quot ; An insulting sort of a record asking a person on voter registration, &quot ; Are you married?&quot ; &quot ; No.&quot ; Do you have any children?&quot ; So, I told Dr. Gaston about this and he didn&#039 ; t know that. He said, &quot ; Well, Jim, I didn&#039 ; t know that. I know an awful lot of things that are bad, but I didn&#039 ; t know about that.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Did you know that a Black man or women cannot even go up in the upper floors of any of the office building in downtown Birmingham to call on their attorney or to pay a payment at the bankruptcy court [which was then up in the Greg Nelson Building]? For any reason whatsoever, they cannot ride a passenger elevator. And if the freight elevator is hauling trash or furniture or whatever, they&#039 ; re going to have to wait until it&#039 ; s all done before they can get upstairs.&quot ; He kind of bristled, he said, &quot ; Yes, I did know that, but I had forgotten it.&quot ; I said, &quot ; If I make an appointment with Sid Symre would you go with me?&quot ; &quot ; Sure.&quot ; So, I made the appointment. I called him, I said, &quot ; Sid I want to come see you.&quot ; &quot ; Alright when.&quot ; I said, &quot ; You name it.&quot ; He did. Dr. Gaston, I picked him up, we wouldn&#039 ; t go in the front door, we went up the alley and went in the back door because we didn&#039 ; t want to embarrass Sid with any of his friend or customers or employees. We sat down and we told him these things. I reminded him he was embarrassed in Tokyo, I said, &quot ; I think Sid you might be embarrassed to learn something I honestly believe you don&#039 ; t know about.&quot ; I told him about this. He said, &quot ; Are you telling me the straight dope or are you just putting on a show? You mean that they can&#039 ; t ride an elevator except the freight elevator in the Brown Marx Building or the Empire Building the Woodward Building, the John A. Hand Building, the Frank Nelson Building?&quot ; I said, &quot ; That&#039 ; s correct. And you the president of the Birmingham Realty Company and you own the Frank Nelson Building and maybe some of the others.&quot ; He wrote it down on a pad. I told him about the restrooms and the drinking fountains at the courthouse and I said, &quot ; You are the state senator from this county.&quot ; It took about 30 or 40 minutes I guess. He said, &quot ; Give me two days.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Whatever you want. You were nice enough to see us, thank you. You gave us an opportunity to bring you something. It maybe astonishing.&quot ; He said, &quot ; It is.&quot ; In two days, it had all been wiped out. HANSON: Not the drinking fountain, however. HEAD: What&#039 ; s that? HANSON: Not the drinking fountains, just the elevators, you mean. HEAD: Just the elevators, the drinking fountains, the restrooms at the county courthouse and instructions to the people who interviewed people at the voter registration thing, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t you dare ask any insulting questions of anyone.&quot ; HANSON: Mr. Head, how did Sid Symre, aside from embarrassment, manage the group that got together to meet with King after the marches? Were you part of that group? HEAD: No. HANSON: Why? HEAD: Because Sid Symre didn&#039 ; t want an activist. Unfortunately, that was the term that was applied to me by a lot of people. He wanted to talk from his level to his compatriots of people of like kind who had been fighting this thing. He wanted to appeal to them on a strictly economic basis that we cannot to afford a continuation of this thing. If it does, it&#039 ; s going to get worse. It&#039 ; s gonna get cancerous. We&#039 ; re going to be the laughingstock of this country. We - remember now he was the president of the Birmingham Realty Company - and I&#039 ; m not saying he did anything from a monetary standpoint alone. I honestly believe, I&#039 ; m convinced of it, that he had a change of heart and it may have been in Tokyo not in Birmingham but he was committed from that point on to try and persuade businessmen as I had tried to influence him by saying, &quot ; This is wrong and it&#039 ; s all going to slap us in the face in business and if we ever try to get into Heaven it&#039 ; s going to clobber us.&quot ; Well, I don&#039 ; t know whether he took to that but anyway in 48 hours he said, &quot ; You give me two days.&quot ; And in 48 hours, he delivered. Which shows and confirms the fact that just a few people could run the town and had been running the town for generations. HANSON: Yes, someone said was what Birmingham needed was 12 good funerals and maybe we could start over again. Did you hear that? HEAD: Yes, of course. They would have to be selective but about 12 would be that right number. HANSON: Twelve people actually controlled this town, how things happened, who got where... HEAD: Maybe fewer than that but be generous and say twelve. HANSON: Why didn&#039 ; t they come down on your neck? HEAD: They did. HANSON: Tell me about that. HEAD: I don&#039 ; t want to get into that. That&#039 ; s too darn personal. That doesn&#039 ; t really have any bearing on anything... HANSON: You see, I think Mr. Head, in doing an oral history of our town, we have to look a little bit at the climate that we all were part of and that climate produced change. HEAD: Look Betty, Birmingham - remember this now - was a young city. By comparison with Memphis or Nashville or Atlanta or Jacksonville or New Orleans, it was a young, young city. Remember also that it would not have existed except that two railroads crossed, and they wouldn&#039 ; t have crossed except for the fact that we had iron ore, coal and limestone. The only place on the face of the God&#039 ; s green Earth where you find the three essentials for manufacturing steel in one spot. Okay, because that happened, who was going to develop that. The farmers [inaudible] and up and down the various valleys? They had no more ideas than the man on the moon, they didn&#039 ; t even know that that was iron ore. They didn&#039 ; t know that there was coal down there or limestone or anything, they were interested in crops. So, people from elsewhere, Tennessee, Montgomery, Pittsburgh, New York, Chicago, Cleveland, heard about this and said hey wait a minute. You mean to tell me that there are minerals and all in the South, in the cotton land? The first thing you know, Birmingham was booming. Booming with what? Those ingredients. Who caused it to boom? People from elsewhere. And what few investors from Tennessee and Montgomery and around the South that put up a few dollars, they couldn&#039 ; t sustain their needs so they sold out to the big money interests of Pittsburgh, U.S. Steel, so on so forth all over the country and look I&#039 ; m not begrudging all of that because some of that brought some great blessings, the Irelands, they were not natives here, they came from Ohio and you couldn&#039 ; t find finer people. They created Vulcan Materials out of nothing. They created Kirkwood on the river, they were generous people. But the curse that we inherited was this. Finally, U.S. Steel was the owner of the principle industrial development and they had plants in Gary, Indiana and Pittsburgh and elsewhere and they only bought this down here for protection against any competitive thing against their other investments. So, they inaugurated Pittsburgh Plus, which meant if you sold steel out of Birmingham to Texas or California or any place, they had to be the price of Pittsburgh plus the freight from Pittsburgh to that destination. They sent men down here said, &quot ; Look go down there an run that mill and be sure that it makes money.&quot ; Most of the people that they sent down were only in interested in staying here until they retired and could move to California or Martha&#039 ; s Vineyard or Florida or someplace. They had no roots down in the soil. We didn&#039 ; t have any families back in those days that had any deep roots into the soil of this community. Later we acquired just a few like Crawford Johnson, who stumbled onto Coca Cola and made a lot of money. He was originally a Baptist, he helped save Samford University that was bankrupt. They couldn&#039 ; t pay their faculty salaries, they couldn&#039 ; t buy the coal to run the furnace, they couldn&#039 ; t do anything. He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ll bail it out if you&#039 ; ll let me get Howell Davis to be president.&quot ; HANSON: It was tit for tat. HEAD: There was one exception to the people that came down here from U.S. Steel and that was George Gordon Crawford. He came down and he was horrified. He said, &quot ; These shanties out here are a disgrace to human beings.&quot ; So he said, &quot ; Build me some homes. The company will own them, we&#039 ; ll rent them, we&#039 ; ll take the rent out of the paychecks. Build me a commissary. Build me a hospital.&quot ; And he built Lloyd Nolan Hospital right over the hill there. Build me a school. It&#039 ; s too bad that he couldn&#039 ; t stay here. Sixty-five caught up and he had to move, but he was a great humanitarian as well as the president of Tennessee Coal, Iron and Railway Company. But he was the exception to the rule, the majority of them you couldn&#039 ; t remember their names. HANSON: But they controlled the town. Someone has written about Birmingham, that it was a city of overseers. HEAD: It was run just like a plantation. They owned the company store, you bought from the company store, they owned the sheriff, there never would have been a Bull Conner except for TCI. HANSON: You think so? You really believe that? That they supported Bull, they threw money at him, they got him elected. HEAD: I&#039 ; m not the only one that said that. HANSON: Oh, of course not, I&#039 ; ve read it. I just want it on the record. HEAD: Of course, I believe it because I ran into it. I was appointed chairman of the victory bonds drive for Jefferson County at the end of the war, 1945. I went to Bull Conner who was then city police commissioner at city hall and I said, Bull I&#039 ; ve been appointed so forth. I said it&#039 ; s important that we not allow our citizens to squander their savings because they couldn&#039 ; t buy anything. They couldn&#039 ; t buy a radio, etc. I said, &quot ; They have fortunately been forced to save some money. Now we don&#039 ; t want to make a bunch of monkeys out of ourselves by beating up the price of the first radio that comes along, the first automobile, and so forth. We&#039 ; re going to put this in the victory bonds savings, it&#039 ; ll earn interest, better interest, until production gets the price down sensibly. Now I said. &quot ; In order to do that I&#039 ; ve got to put on some kind of a gimmick, and I&#039 ; ve come up with an idea that I&#039 ; m going to have them roll out the barrel and for everyone that buys a bond. We&#039 ; ll give them a stub and we put the other stub into the barrel, and we roll it down 20th Street. We&#039 ; ll make a big hoopla every day at noon and people will know what this is all about and we&#039 ; ll draw them at the Alabama Theatre, and blah, blah, blah. He said, &quot ; Uh-hu, you know, Head (he always called me Head) that&#039 ; s a raffle and that&#039 ; s against the law. But I&#039 ; ll tell you something, if they arrest you, just let me know, because damn sure I&#039 ; ll get you out right quick or I&#039 ; ll get in the jail with you.&quot ; You can say, oh well, he was trying to be nice to you and he was trying to do something for the war effort blah, blah, blah. No, what he was doing was showing me that whatever in the hell needed to be done that he wanted to get done, he didn&#039 ; t have to ask anybody, he just go ahead and do it. HANSON: There were a lot people in this town, however, I can remember from my first arrival here that supported Bull Conner either privately or publicly not just TCI. HEAD: That isn&#039 ; t any mystery Betty. They supported him for three reasons, not because they were proud of him, not because they thought he was a great commissioner or police chief or anything like that, but first, they either worked for TCI or they sold or they sold them insurance or they sold them supplies, blah, blah, blah. Or some of their relatives worked for TCI and they weren&#039 ; t about to do anything that would cause anybody to say, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t do business with that fellow. He&#039 ; s not one of us.&quot ; That&#039 ; s why I say it was a plantation operation. HANSON: Bull was the overseer, the one that cracked the whip. HEAD: Sure. They could say to Bull, &quot ; Look buddy, we&#039 ; ve got 38,000 employees. You run for commissioner we guarantee your election.&quot ; I&#039 ; m going to prove that to you. I was state chairman for the Democratic party for the John Kennedy campaign. Me, a Baptist, finance not the campaign, financial campaign, a Baptist supporting a Catholic candidate for president in the state of Alabama and chairman of the finance committee asking people to put up money. What&#039 ; s the matter with you have you lost your bearings? No. That didn&#039 ; t enter the picture with the people that appointed me the executive committee of the Democratic party. Well sir, I learned something. We raised the largest sum of money in the state of Alabama that&#039 ; s ever been raised for a Democratic candidate for president. In spite of why. HANSON: Exactly, why? HEAD: Simply because the personality of that man and what he said to the Baptist and other preachers in a convention meeting in Dallas or Houston, I&#039 ; ve forgotten which, about religion and the presidency and this country plus the fact that this country was ready, youth wise, returned from the war. Here was a war veteran, youth, everything fell into place, and the religious prejudice had to take a sidestep. So, he carried the state of Alabama. We raised the largest sum of money that&#039 ; s ever been raised in Alabama for a Democratic candidate and people were behind that but here&#039 ; s the reason, and I&#039 ; ll get off of it right quick. I went up to the inauguration and one of my close friends was running a company that was a tenant of the city of Birmingham and he and I were close, and our wives went with us... HANSON: Go ahead. HEAD: I&#039 ; m talking too much. HANSON: No, you&#039 ; re not, your saying exactly what I want to say. I should have turned this over. I can&#039 ; t get this in. Go ahead the tape is rolling. So, you and your wife went up to the inauguration. HEAD: We weren&#039 ; t flying back in those days you know ; we went up on the train a federal judge was on the train with us, we stopped at the [inaudible] hotel. It snowed, it was a blizzard, now I&#039 ; m back on the story. HANSON: Okay. HEAD: Bull Conner called this friend of mine who as I say was a tenant of the city of Birmingham, in other words, he was renting, well, he rented the Hayes Aircraft Hangers, which the city owns. In other words, the city got them from the government after the war. He called this friend of mine and said, &quot ; I want to talk to you.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well okay Bull, come on up. Jim Head is here.&quot ; I said, I&#039 ; ll get out. He said, &quot ; No, you stay here.&quot ; Bull came in and said, &quot ; I want to talk you about one of your employees.&quot ; &quot ; What about him?&quot ; &quot ; We want to run him for mayor.&quot ; He said, &quot ; What are you talking about?&quot ; He [Bull] said, &quot ; We&#039 ; re talking about Art Hayes. Art Hayes is a son of a minister - Methodist minister - he&#039 ; s a former veteran and he&#039 ; s been on the FBI and we want to run him for mayor.&quot ; Lou Jeffries said, &quot ; Wait a minute. He&#039 ; s in charge of our labor relations.&quot ; &quot ; I know we know all about what he does but we want to run him for mayor, and I have a guarantee that he will be elected.&quot ; Now in my opinion the guarantee was, TCI said if that&#039 ; s who you want go get him. We&#039 ; ll guarantee you that you&#039 ; ll be elected. After all, they had 38,000 employees and those employees had friends and customers and bought insurance from people and automobiles from others, and groceries from others and all that. So, the influence was that it&#039 ; s a plantation operation. We kind of poo-pooed the idea for about 30 minutes and they wouldn&#039 ; t take any poo-pooing at all. He said, &quot ; Look, let&#039 ; s don&#039 ; t waste time. We want him to run for mayor.&quot ; Well, the conclusion was okay. &quot ; Have you talked to him? &quot ; No, but I want you to talk to him right now. You call him up and tell him that it&#039 ; s okay for us to talk to him about running for mayor. So, he did right then, and you could tell that the fellow on the other side was dumb founded surprised and didn&#039 ; t know anything about it. He said, &quot ; Well, let Bull talk to you.&quot ; So, Bull said, &quot ; It&#039 ; s all set. We&#039 ; re going to run you for mayor.&quot ; He did and he was elected without any problem. HANSON: I remember when they tried to get rid of that triumph very well. I remember when they put up Tom King. HEAD: That&#039 ; s right. Do you remember what they did to Tom King? HANSON: Let&#039 ; s talk about that. HEAD: Well, I don&#039 ; t.they sort of, I hate to use the term, but they brutalized him. They set him up. Tom King was a good dependable deeply religious deeply concerned citizen and would have made a great administrator of the city. But that wasn&#039 ; t what they wanted, and it was simple. It was so simple that it could be done in 30 minutes in Washington, D.C. over the telephone line and that was it. There wasn&#039 ; t nothing else to it. One minute he was working for a company, the next minute he was candidate for mayor of the city of Birmingham, guaranteed that he&#039 ; d be elected. Now how much more do you want in the way of a plantation operation than that. HANSON: So, all of this fit together didn&#039 ; t it? It was to the segregation issue, the labor strike that took place in the city, the city owned by 8 good men, not even good men, so it was owned. So, Mr. Head, you were sort of fighting wind mills in a way and yet they named you man of the year. HEAD: Well, I&#039 ; ll tell you, there&#039 ; s always been something like that, there&#039 ; s always been something like that Betty. I don&#039 ; t want to be quoting paraphrased things but honestly all that is necessary for evil to exist is for some good people to just not do a damn thing about it and evil will take care of it without any trouble quickly. And yet if the good people who ever they are ever decide look I&#039 ; ve had enough of this I don&#039 ; t sleep well, I think about this it disturbs me, I don&#039 ; t won&#039 ; t my children to look back and say what in the hell did you do about that daddy or granddaddy? And I&#039 ; m not going to be able to say anything about it. So it does eventually change. The only thing is I don&#039 ; t know why the good Lord puts up with it for so long waiting for it to change. I really don&#039 ; t understand that. HANSON: Mr. Head, thank you. You&#039 ; ve led a wonderful life. HEAD: I have, I&#039 ; ve been blessed. What more could an individual want than a fine family, good health, and know Betty, I have a world of friends you know who unfortunately most of my good friends that I had back in the 40s and 50s and 30s, have passed away. They&#039 ; re no longer here. But let me tell you something. The greatest thing that&#039 ; s ever happened to me is that their sons and daughters who have been off to college have come back and they are entirely different people. They don&#039 ; t have that fear. They are not going to be handcuffed and shackled by those kinds of thoughts and those kinds of prejudices. They have learnt something differently because they&#039 ; ve lived with other people under different circumstances and they don&#039 ; t believe that the things were ever necessary. Maybe that&#039 ; s why the Baptists said look we&#039 ; re really apologetic for what&#039 ; s happened. I don&#039 ; t make any big to do about that. They&#039 ; re going to have to demonstrate to satisfy me that they mean exactly what their words. That&#039 ; s what the pastor who presented the resolution said, that words are not sufficient. It will depend on our actions. Well I agree. They&#039 ; re going to have to show actions and I&#039 ; m sure they will. HANSON: Thanks Mr. Head. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JHead1995.xml JHead1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource James Head Description An account of the resource James Head discusses his experience as a white businessman trying to combat racial injustice in 1960's Birmingham. He worked with journalists, politicians and Movement leaders try to change the social climate of injustice. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950630H Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Small business--Public relations Korean War, 1950-1953 Connor, Theophilus Eugene (Bull) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-06-30 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/80e566d7816e421a05ff7bbde202d725.jpg 2d81bdff332b109e6942814be8a32102 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Laura Anderson Wayne Coleman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Janice Kelsey OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JKelsey2008.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.3 March 31, 2008 Janice Kelsey Interviewed on March 31, 2008 20080331K 0:50:57 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Amelia Chase Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Bevel, James L. (James Luther), 1936-2008 Young, Andrew, 1932- Janice Kelsey Laura Anderson Wayne Coleman Video 1:|24(4)|46(1)|58(13)|73(16)|84(9)|96(5)|108(6)|121(6)|134(15)|146(7)|157(2)|168(5)|178(12)|194(9)|206(13)|215(4)|232(11)|244(14)|255(6)|265(2)|276(4)|290(8)|305(14)|313(14)|336(8)|349(2)|360(7)|375(4)|387(6)|401(14)|414(7)|423(14)|434(11)|443(5)|454(3)|466(6)|480(8)|490(12)|499(13)|509(10)|520(6)|531(2)|544(6)|568(1)|576(14)|616(8)|641(11)|650(13)|660(9)|674(14) 0 https://youtu.be/ht9X6KM5n90 YouTube video English 0 Introduction And you'll edit out the bad parts. Janice Kelsey begins her oral history interview at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute, where her biography including her work with the Children's Movement and Civil Rights demonstrations in Birmingham, Alabama will be detailed. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Memory Children's movement 33.516405, -86.814532 18 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 130 Biographical Background I'm Janice Wesley Kelsey. Janice Kelsey introduces herself and discusses her childhood. She mentions her parents and their occupations, as well as, her community of Titusville and the Birmingham City School System. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birth date ; Parents ; Titusville (Ala.) Childhood 183 The Children's Crusade Well, then how did cute little Janice get involved in a children's movement? Janice Kelsey discusses how she became involved in the Civil Rights movement via her attendance of mass meetings where she heard Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Fred L. Shuttlesworth. Figures such as James L. Bevel and Andrew Young encouraged her and other students to engage in a nonviolent march beginning at Sixteenth Street Baptist Church on May 2nd, 1963--a demonstration that would later be known as the Children's movement or the Children's Crusade. Demonstrations ; Mass meetings ; Nonviolence King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 641 Arrest and Imprisonment We went first to . . . We had been told to all say we were the same age, so that we would go to the same place. Janice Kelsey remembers being arrested and taken to the county jail following the Children's Crusade march. There was not enough room at the jail, so they were placed in the Fair Park Arena. A news reporter asked her how she was doing there, and she replied, &quot ; I am as contented as a Carnation Cow&quot ; (a line that she had heard in a Carnation milk commercial). She was there from Thursday until Sunday, when her parents were allowed to pick her up. The Reverend Calvin Woods worked with the Birmingham Board of Education and courts to ensure that all students, including Kelsey, would be reinstated in school. Arrest ; Carnation Milk Products Company ; County Jail Birmingham (Ala.). Board of Education ; Woods, Calvin Wallace 884 16th Street Church Bombing Not a bit. Not a bit. I had no idea then that what we were doing would be historic in any way, or of any interest to anybody. Janice Kelsey retells her memories of the September 15th bombing of Sixteenth Street Baptist Church in 1963, and how it made her realize the seriousness, as well as, the significance of the what they were fighting for in the Civil Rights Movement. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 985 Effects and Aftermath But can you just talk a little more about your family's feelings about what you were doing, and also teachers? Janice Kelsey recounts her parent's reactions and thoughts about her and her brother's arrests and releases from jail following their participation in the Children's Crusade. She remembers that they were proud. She also remembers her teacher's lenience in letting children leave class to be involved in marches and demonstrations. Arrest ; Demonstrations ; School Family ; Reactions ; Teachers 1103 The Role of Music Okay. You've spoken to so many of the important things already. The role of music, you've touched on that. Do you want to say more about . . . Janice Kelsey asserts the important role of music within the movement. She remembers Carlton Reese transforming traditional spirituals into new songs about freedom and unity that helped empower and excite all who heard them. Freedom ; Reese, Carlton, 1942-2002 ; Spirituals (Songs) 1189 Becoming Involved with the Movement I loved your honesty up front about how you got to the first mass meeting you went to, to begin with. Janice Kelsey discusses her obliviousness to racial inequality, as she grew up in an African-American community. After the Children's Crusade, she became much more aware of the injustices surrounding her, as well as, the injustices her parents had endured. Demonstrations ; Injustices 1350 Impact and Influence of the Movement Well, tell me again how old you were during the 63 event, and then how it impacted your life after. Janice Kelsey talks about how attending her first mass meeting impacted the rest of her life. It made her much more aware of the world outside of her community, which before integration, consisted only of lower and middle class African-Americans. She also discusses her feelings about her parents shielding her from events in the movement, and how she felt about those that were not involved. Kelsey then relates the first time that she realized the significance of her participation in the Children's Crusade when she was asked to speak to a high school class about her experiences. Demonstrations ; Integration ; Mass Meetings 1815 After the Movement That was the first time when Lilly May Fincher asked me to speak to her class. Kelsey summarizes her life after the movement, in which she graduated with degrees from Miles College and the University of Alabama at Birmingham. She got married and had children, while at the same time, she began her teaching career. She was placed by the Birmingham Board of Education at various high schools. Upon visiting her old high school, she noticed many improvement from when she attended. Kelsey says this showed her the importance of what Dr. King, Rev, Shuttlesworth, and Rev. Woods endured to accomplish needed changes. Birmingham (Ala.). Board of Education ; High School ; Miles College ; University of Alabama at Birmingham King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Woods, Calvin Wallace 2110 Additional Memories from the Movement Well, I want to give you an opportunity to put anything you want to say. Janice Kelsey recounts being pulled aside with other young people at a mass meeting by James Bevel. It was he that invited them to join the movement. She also remembers her mother protesting adverse reactions to a segregation attempt at Woodlawn High School, where she worked in the cafeteria. She notes that her brother later became Woodlawn's first African-American principal. Kelsey then talks about the police and guards' behavior during her arrest and imprisonment, before mentioning that some 2000 children were arrested the first day of the Children's Crusade. Demonstrations ; Jail ; Mass Meetings Bevel, James L. (James Luther), 1936-2008 ; Children's Crusade 2744 Trying to Get Mugshot Did you ever try to get your mugshot? Janice Kelsey relates the challenge of trying to obtain the mugshot from her arrest over her participation in the Children's Crusade. Arrest ; Mugshot 2857 Family and Legacy Sometimes I think I make my husband uncomfortable when we go to restaurants because I see I can be seated before another party, and sometimes they will want to serve the other party before serving me. Janice Kelsey admits that she can still see subtle hints of racism today, even after the 1960's fight for equal rights. She remembers encouraging her children to rise above it, and proudly says that they turned out well. She also discusses her mother's community activism, and that if she had not had nine children and numerous responsibilities, she believes her mother would have participated in the movement as well. Community Activism ; Equal Rights ; Racism Oral History Janice Kelsey discusses her experience participating in the Children's Crusade on May 2, 1963. She outlines the effect that her arrest, and the Movement as whole, had on the rest of her life. KELSEY: And you&#039 ; ll edit out the bad parts. COLEMAN: There won&#039 ; t be any bad parts. KELSEY: I don&#039 ; t know, Wayne. You get this old, your memory goes, psh. Say, &quot ; Oh, what was I trying to say now?&quot ; COLEMAN: Okay. We&#039 ; re ready when you are. ANDERSON: Okay. Well, I&#039 ; m Laura Anderson. KELSEY: Okay. ANDERSON: I&#039 ; m glad to know you already. But I&#039 ; ll tell you more about what we&#039 ; re doing today. KELSEY: Okay. ANDERSON: You already know about our oral history project. And this interview will become part of that collection of oral histories. But we also have a second purpose in mind for this, which is a kiosk that&#039 ; s going to be in the permanent exhibition after we renovate a few parts of the galleries, which I hope you&#039 ; ve heard about. But we plan to do the physical construction of that in the fall, and perhaps have a ribbon cutting next February. KELSEY: Great. ANDERSON: We don&#039 ; t know about that. Currently, and I know you walk through there all the time with groups who ask you to speak, when you get to the section with the television sets, where we interpret the children&#039 ; s movement, there&#039 ; s that drum thing that a lot of people don&#039 ; t even know you can move. KELSEY: Yeah, right. ANDERSON: See the photos on and some mugshots and thumbprints and things. We&#039 ; ve decided, since that doesn&#039 ; t get enough use, that we want to replace it with a kiosk that will have some oral histories. KELSEY: Okay. ANDERSON: So there you go. That&#039 ; s the idea. And we just want to get your story about your involvement in the children&#039 ; s movement on tape again in a different format, for you on that kiosk. And then researchers will be able to use this for evermore if they want to reference your story. That&#039 ; s what we&#039 ; re doing this morning. Again, even though we know you well and you&#039 ; re a friend of the institute, if you could just give me your full name and date of birth and where you were born, and just start talking from there for me. And I&#039 ; ll help you along. KELSEY: I&#039 ; m Janice Wesley Kelsey. I was born April 18th, 1947 in Birmingham, Alabama to Henry and Katie Wesley. I grew up in the Titusville area of Birmingham. I am a product of the Birmingham City Schools. ANDERSON: What was life like growing up in Titusville? What did your parents do for a living? KELSEY: My father was a laborer with Tennessee Coal and Iron. My mother worked part-time as an insurance agent for a while. For a while, she worked at Woodlawn High School in the cafeteria. But during most of our growing up years, she was an at home mom. ANDERSON: Well, then how did cute little Janice get involved in a children&#039 ; s movement? KELSEY: Oh, I got involved. ANDERSON: And what was the children&#039 ; s movement? KELSEY: Well, my initial interest in civil rights and becoming a part of that really didn&#039 ; t have anything to do with civil rights. I had a friend whose mother and daughter were in the mass choir. Mass meetings would be held on Monday nights, and she would come to school on Tuesdays and talk about the mass meetings. She would say things about the good singing, about all of the ministers who could speak so well, about how crowded the churches would be. And she talked about the cute boys that would be there. I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ve got to go.&quot ; So I got permission to go to a mass meeting, and it was everything that she had described. The music was great. Carlton Reese could do wonders with that organ. Speakers like Shuttlesworth and King and N.H. Smith, they were all well dressed and well spoken, and I was quite impressed. KELSEY: And at that first meeting, one of the ministers who looked a little different than the others, his name was James Bevel, asked all of the teenagers to meet him in the church&#039 ; s annex. That particular meeting was held at New Pilgrim Baptist Church. We went to the church&#039 ; s annex. He polled the audience, what schools we went to. We had a lot of school spirit, and we cheered when he called our school&#039 ; s name. Then he went back and started asking questions. Okay. I&#039 ; m a graduate of Ullman High School. He said, &quot ; At Ullman High School, how many electric typewriters do you have?&quot ; Electric typewriters were probably like computers are today. And I said, &quot ; We have one, but I get to type on it because I&#039 ; m a good typist.&quot ; KELSEY: And he said, &quot ; Did you know at Phillips High School,&quot ; which was an all white school, &quot ; That they have three rooms of electric typewriters? They don&#039 ; t even practice on those things you use at Ullman.&quot ; That kind of got my interest rolling. He asked if any of the guys there played football at Ullman. My brother was on the football team. And he asked, &quot ; Have you ever wondered why your helmets are blue and white when you get them, but your colors are green and gray?&quot ; My brother said, &quot ; We always paint them the right colors.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, why don&#039 ; t they come in green and gray?&quot ; And of course, we didn&#039 ; t know the answer. And he said, &quot ; It&#039 ; s because you get Ramsey&#039 ; s discards.&quot ; He didn&#039 ; t just choose Ullman. He gave lots of examples. KELSEY: But it gave me the knowledge that something wasn&#039 ; t right with this picture. He asked if we&#039 ; d ever looked at our copyright dates in our textbooks. And I hadn&#039 ; t looked at a copyright date. Table of contents, yeah. Copyright date, no. He said, &quot ; Check that out. Your books are outdated.&quot ; The more he said, the more I knew that I&#039 ; m being mistreated, and I didn&#039 ; t even know it. So he said, &quot ; Now if you want to do something about it, you can. Your parents really can&#039 ; t because if they get in trouble, if they go and participate, go to jail, they&#039 ; re going to lose their jobs. There&#039 ; s no one to take care of you. But you don&#039 ; t have a lot to lose. After all, you&#039 ; re getting a second class education.&quot ; I bought into it and that&#039 ; s why I became a part of the civil rights movement. ANDERSON: So what happened then? KELSEY: Okay. Well, May 2nd, 1963. That was what we were calling D-Day. And we were saying, &quot ; That&#039 ; s D-Day we&#039 ; re going to go and get our freedom.&quot ; I had attended several meetings after that initial one. We had learned freedom songs. We had been instructed that if you could not remain nonviolent, you could not participate in this movement. So on D-Day, it was on a Thursday, I got up and I was just welled up with excitement thinking about what was going to happen. We knew that if we paraded without a permit, we were going to jail. So I had packed my purse. Got my toothbrush, soap, deodorant, all the things I thought I would need for a nice overnight stay. KELSEY: And my mother sensed something was going on. They were talking about it on the radio in coded words that we&#039 ; re going to have a party in the park. We&#039 ; re going to turn it out, saying things like that. And we knew exactly what the DJs were talking about. My mother cautioned me. She said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m sending you to school. Don&#039 ; t you go nowhere and get in any trouble. I don&#039 ; t have any money to get you out.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Yes, ma&#039 ; am.&quot ; That&#039 ; s what she needs to hear. That&#039 ; s what I said. But I was going to school. I just wasn&#039 ; t going to stay, because the plan was to go to school and then walk out. So I went to school and everybody was talking about it. And when we went to first period class first, and then to homeroom. KELSEY: When it was time to go to homeroom, we started walking out in droves. People were driving around the campus offering rides to 16th Street Church. But most of us chose to walk. We walked and we were singing freedom songs. And when we got to 16th Street, there were people everywhere, in the park, on the steps, in the church, all over. And the excitement just intensified. And when we went into the church, we sang, we prayed. And Andrew Young and James Bevel were in charge. They lined us up in pairs, and they sent us out, I found out later, in waves of 50. I was in that first wave. KELSEY: We joined hands, walking out in pairs singing We Shall Overcome. I got maybe a block away from the church before we were stopped. A police officer, speaking through a megaphone, told us that we were in violation of a city ordinance. We cannot parade without a permit. We could get out of the line, nothing would happen. If we remained in the line, we were going to jail. That was a very intimidating moment for me personally. A, I was not accustomed to disobeying adults, especially a white male who had a stick in one hand, a pistol on his hip, and I kind of wanted to obey him. Someone further back started singing We Are Not Afraid. That gave me the courage to remain in the line, to get in the paddy wagon, and to go to jail. Keep going? Okay. KELSEY: We went first to ... We had been told to all say we were the same age, so that we would go to the same place. I didn&#039 ; t know it was a strategy. I just thought that was something we were doing. So we were saying we were 15, most of the girls. If you were 15, they got us from family court and carried us to the county courthouse. It was interesting to me that as people continued to be arrested, the family court was just jam packed. So they had to call a school bus to get us. Birmingham City didn&#039 ; t have school buses at that time. So I had my first ride in the front of the bus, and I was just as happy as a lark to ride in the front of the bus. And left family court, came to county jail. KELSEY: County jail, we were fingerprinted. Mugshots were taken. And we were taken upstairs. County jail was not a really nice place to be. It was cold. There weren&#039 ; t mattresses on the beds. There weren&#039 ; t partitions at the commode. And there were people everywhere. And we sat around on the floor and on each other and kind of sang and prayed. Spent one night, I spent one night at county jail. The next morning, school buses came again, carried us to Fair Park Arena. Now again, I was excited because black folk did not go to Fair Park. It was kiddie land park. We could go only on Saturday nights after the fair. My parents never let us go. So going to kiddie land park, I thought it was going to be exciting. KELSEY: Well, we didn&#039 ; t go to the Ferris wheel and all the amusement park. Went in the back. It was a building that was set up like a 4-H dormitory. There were some beds that had mattresses and linen. I got one of those. And we had lockers and nice restrooms. The floor was tiled. And so it was a much nice place than county jail. And we sat around there and talked and sang. And I knew a lot of people who were there, and so I didn&#039 ; t feel in any way uncomfortable or anxious. In fact, a news reporter came. Rumors were floating about what was going on in the jails with the kids. And he asked me. How did I feel about being there? And there was a commercial on TV at the time about Carnation milk. And the commercial said, &quot ; Carnation cows are contented.&quot ; So when he asked me: How did I feel about being in jail? I told him I was as contented as a Carnation cow. He snapped my picture and I&#039 ; ve seen that in several publications. ANDERSON: So how long did you stay out there? KELSEY: I got out on Sunday. ANDERSON: So from Thursday. KELSEY: Thursday to Sunday. There were announcements apparently made in churches that parents could come and sign their children out. They did not have to pay, and there would be no penalty and that kind of thing. So my parents did come and get me out. Of course, we were all expelled from school. But Reverend Calvin Woods also had a daughter who was in that group, who had been expelled. And he carried the Birmingham Board of Education to court. The circuit court in Atlanta, I think it was, ruled that we had to be reinstated, and we were. So the only consequence, I think, was that they never cleared our arrest records as they said they would. That never hampered me from anything though. ANDERSON: Yeah. I was going to say. How important is that to you right now? KELSEY: Not a bit. Not a bit. I had no idea then that what we were doing would be historic in any way, or of any interest to anybody. I thought it was just such a minor role. And in fact, I didn&#039 ; t think it bothered anybody anywhere until September 15th. And that was a really devastating time. The girls who were killed in that bombing, I knew. I had a connection with at least three of them. Denise McNair, her father used to be our milkman. Carol Robinson, her father used to be my band teacher. And Cynthia Wesley and I had become friends when she was adopted by Gertrude Wesley. And because I have such a large family, everybody at Ullman High School with that last name, Wesley, was my sibling except Cynthia. But people thought we were sisters, and so I think she was the first young person that I knew who died, let alone had been killed. KELSEY: And so I found that to be a very, very devastating thing. And I thought, so unfair, because they had not demonstrated. They were in Sunday school, and I just didn&#039 ; t know it would bother someone to the extent that they would do something like that. ANDERSON: It&#039 ; s probably difficult to answer the question without the church bombing in your mind. KELSEY: Right. ANDERSON: But can you just talk a little more about your family&#039 ; s feelings about what you were doing, and also teachers? KELSEY: My family&#039 ; s feeling, I think my mother and father were afraid for me, for my safety. I had no idea that I was in any danger, so I didn&#039 ; t have any fear. I think when I was released that they were relieved that nothing had happened. However, by that time, my brother was in jail. But I think after the arrest and the release of the children, I think our parents were proud that we had enough courage to stand up for what we believed in and they were proud of us. Now teachers, what do you mean? What about teachers? ANDERSON: Well, did they look another way? KELSEY: What did my teachers at the school think? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Because I remember asking one of my teachers. I had a good GPA and I wanted to protect that. And somehow I know that we respected teachers a lot more then, than I think they&#039 ; re respected today. And I had asked her, she was a young teacher. &quot ; Suppose some kids walk out of your class today. Are they going to fail?&quot ; And she said, &quot ; Well, if everybody walks, there&#039 ; s nobody to fail.&quot ; And for me that was saying, &quot ; It&#039 ; s okay to do it.&quot ; Yeah. So I think the teachers really were okay with it. They couldn&#039 ; t say it, but they didn&#039 ; t try to stop it. ANDERSON: Okay. You&#039 ; ve spoken to so many of the important things already. The role of music, you&#039 ; ve touched on that. Do you want to say more about ... KELSEY: Well, I will say that the music was ... At my church, we of course had a choir and they had robes. But the music didn&#039 ; t sound the same. Carlton Reese had a different spin on the music or a different beat. He had taken a lot of the negro spirituals and changed the words, and they were so applicable to what we were fighting for, until it just raised an awareness and an excitement that just made us want to be a part of it. Before I&#039 ; ll be a slave, I&#039 ; ll be buried in my grave. I woke up this morning with my mind stayed on freedom. Those things just ... That really said how I felt. And I think the music was very important. It was a great communication tool and it was something that was just shared, I think. Everybody could feel it. ANDERSON: I loved your honesty up front about how you got to the first mass meeting you went to, to begin with. And that makes me wonder about a question I always ask people who got involved by any means, which is: How aware were you, or not aware? You&#039 ; re about the same age as my mother, a white southerner, who was not aware of anything that was going on. But how aware were you of things that other young people were doing around the South? KELSEY: I was not aware. I was not aware. In my community, I really did not encounter people of a different race. Except, there was a store, a grocery store, in our neighborhood that was run by two white men. My father knew them. He called them by their first names. I called them Mr. Pete, Mr. Joe, because I called everybody mister. So I didn&#039 ; t know that things were different on the other side of town. I think my parents protected us from the kinds of injustices that they had endured. Riding on the back of the bus, yeah, I knew I rode in the back of the bus, but I&#039 ; d always ridden in the back of the bus, and it didn&#039 ; t bother me. I didn&#039 ; t think beyond what was going on in my world. In my world, all was well. KELSEY: And the Birmingham news may have been reporting some information, but I wasn&#039 ; t really reading the Birmingham news. I was reading Dear Abby. And if I had to do a current events, I&#039 ; d cut something out of the front page or something like that. But I was totally oblivious to what was going on elsewhere. ANDERSON: So when sit ins were happening, those were older people. Those were college age students. KELSEY: Those were college kids. And I had family members who were in college who participated in things like that, but at our house at dinner, we weren&#039 ; t talking about civil rights and sit ins and beatings and things like that. My parents may have been discussing those things, but the kids weren&#039 ; t a part of those discussions in my house. So I found out a lot of things after the demonstration, some things that my parents had endured, that I was just totally unaware of. ANDERSON: Well, tell me again how old you were during the 63 event, and then how it impacted your life after. KELSEY: When I went to the first meeting, it was before my birthday and I was 16. And how did it impact what? ANDERSON: The rest of your life. KELSEY: Well, it certainly made me more interested in what was going on around me, and not just in my immediate environment. But it made me read more, pay attention more. In fact, I think it probably made me more sensitive in so many areas, and how I&#039 ; m treated as compared to how someone else might be treated. It made me stand up and speak up for myself and how I felt about things. It made me instill that in my children, that no matter who it is you&#039 ; re going against, one is no better than you. I never felt that anybody was better than me anyway. But I just never had any thoughts about there was something wrong because I never had to compare myself with somebody else. And when it was brought to me, yeah, I had some thoughts and feelings about that. ANDERSON: I get that a lot about Titusville. KELSEY: You&#039 ; ve heard a lot about Titusville. ANDERSON: No. I&#039 ; ve heard that a lot about Titusville. KELSEY: Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Okay. ANDERSON: That, that world view is kind of prominent in Titusville. KELSEY: Okay. Yeah. ANDERSON: Makes it sound like a nice place to grow up. KELSEY: Absolutely. Before integration, middle class blacks and lower middle class blacks, everybody lived in the same neighborhoods, went to the same churches. And so there wasn&#039 ; t such a marked difference economically. And so we had lots of role models around, and it was a safe environment. We used to call people nosy Nellies because if they saw you doing something, they could correct you and then tell your parents. And nothing was going to happen to them. Something might happen to you for doing it. It was really, you hear about, it takes a village to raise a child. We really had that village kind of atmosphere because we knew everybody on the block. They knew all of us. They knew our parents. And we had close relatives who lived within walking distance of where we lived. And so it really was a great place to grow up. ANDERSON: Well, given all that, how did you feel about people you knew who did not take part? KELSEY: I understood because we were told it was widely known that if employers found out that the children of their employees were involved, that they could lose their jobs. And one of my very good friends, who worked for a white family, she was domestic worker, her mother was. And the father, I think, may have been the chauffeur. And they straight up said, &quot ; If we find out that one of your children is involved, you don&#039 ; t have a job with us anymore.&quot ; So I understood why some people had to go to school, and that really didn&#039 ; t bother me. KELSEY: Probably if my mother had known that&#039 ; s what I was going to do, she may have made me stay at home. She may have been too afraid to let me out because our parents were protective. And so I didn&#039 ; t have any bad feelings about people who did not because I really didn&#039 ; t view this as a really big thing. This was something I felt that somebody mistreated me, and I can go down here and demonstrate and let folk know I didn&#039 ; t like it.But I had no idea that it would have a global effect, and that years later somebody would want to know what I thought or how I felt about it. So I certainly didn&#039 ; t have any feelings about somebody who didn&#039 ; t go. ANDERSON: And yet, it sounds to me like you kind of protected your parents in the same way that they were protecting you. KELSEY: Yeah. Yeah, because I didn&#039 ; t want them to know and be worried. ANDERSON: Yeah. At what point in life did it sink in for you that the whole world had been watching and wanted to hear now? KELSEY: Okay. When I first was aware that someone wanted to know what I did, there was a teacher at Hayes High School. Her name was Lilly May Fincher. She taught history. And she and my sister were friends. They worked at the same school, taught at the same school. And she asked me if I would come over and talk to her class about my participation in the civil rights movement. And I was totally shocked. She had a book that had that picture in it with me sitting on the floor at Fair Park Arena. I had never seen that picture. I remember exactly when it was taken and what I had said, but I hadn&#039 ; t seen the picture. She had a book with the picture in it. And she asked me to talk to her class about it, and I did. KELSEY: And it was several little amusing things that happened during that time. I had taken my sister&#039 ; s leather jacket because they told us it might be cold in jail, so bring a sweater or a wrap. Well, it was May so it was hot in Birmingham. But I took my sister&#039 ; s leather jacket anyway. And she had a friend of hers that was in the service, had given her his wings, and she had them on the collars of the leather jacket. And I thought that would be right nice to take, and I took it. And when I checked out, somebody had taken it out of my locker. And for years, we just went round and round about that leather jacket that got stolen in jail. So we just kind of teased about that. And Lilly May knew about that. She asked me if I&#039 ; d ever replaced it. No. Not yet. KELSEY: But that was the first time I had talked about civil rights to anybody out loud. I didn&#039 ; t think anybody would want to know me and what I did. I would want to know what King said and did, what Shuttlesworth said and did, and Woods, and guys like that. But I thought my role was so minor. Why would somebody want to know that? ANDERSON: And when was that? KELSEY: That was the first time when Lilly May Fincher asked me to speak to her class. ANDERSON: Was that in the 70s or 80s? KELSEY: What year? Oh, gosh. It may have been in the 80s. Yeah. ANDERSON: So all those years, you were doing what? KELSEY: Well, I went to school, went to Miles College, graduated. Went to UAB, graduated twice. Got married, had children. I went on with life. I&#039 ; ll tell you another thing that brought some of that back to me. When I started teaching in 1968, I first taught at Hudson Elementary. Hudson was a very large all black elementary school. I had seventh and eighth grade. And I had 12 classes that alternated on the days that they came. Monday, Wednesday, Friday, some of them. Tuesday, Thursday, some of them. And they were very large classes, 39, 40, 41 kids. But that didn&#039 ; t bother me because teaching is what I&#039 ; d always wanted to do, so I graduated from college. I had a teaching position. I was happy. KELSEY: The next year, 1969, the Birmingham Board was required to put a certain percentage of black teachers into white schools and white teachers into black schools. And I was sent to McElwain. I had four classes. I had no more than 25, 26 in any class. They came to me in the mornings for instruction and in the afternoon for enrichment. I had microscopes. I had test tubes. I had a lab. At Hudson, I used to go to Miles to get the things to demonstrate to show them a test tube, to show them a microscope. It was a different world. At Hudson during my lunch time, I sat in the halls to make sure children weren&#039 ; t in the halls during my lunch period. KELSEY: At McElwain, there was a teachers&#039 ; table, and we had coffee and toast and little special goodies. And I had a prep period where I could sit in the lounge and do my plans or visit with other teachers. It was a world of difference. And that kind of made me a little angry that, here I&#039 ; m thinking, &quot ; This is what school needs to be and looks like when I went to Hudson.&quot ; And when I went to McElwain, in the same school system, it was like night and day. Before I went to Hudson in 68, the summer of 68, I took a class at UAB. UAB was just an extension center then, and I was completing my teacher certification. KELSEY: And we took a tour of Phillips High School. I was really physically ill when I walked into Phillips to see the difference in what theirs looked like. And I remembered very clearly what Ullman looked like. I saw all of this art and marble, and it just looked like a whole nother world compared to where I had come from. And I thought, &quot ; Wow.&quot ; I was their commercial art classes. We had art, but it wasn&#039 ; t commercial art. Our vocational classes were like cosmetology and wood work. Their classes were far more advanced in the vocational areas than what we had been exposed to. So I got a firsthand look at how different things were. And yes, it made me angry and it hurt to know that all this time this has been going on, and I didn&#039 ; t even know it. ANDERSON: And it made you think about what you had marched. KELSEY: Oh yes, it made me realize the importance of what I had participated in. And it made me respect even more the efforts that the leaders had put forth to change that because it took a lot of courage on their part. Shuttlesworth, King, Woods, those guys had to endure some things in order to get to the point where I could participate and help make some changes. ANDERSON: Well, I want to give you an opportunity to put anything you want to say. But first, I have one more question about those guys, as you called them, those men of courage. Were you aware at the time? I know you were going to the mass meetings. When Bevel was pulling young people into the annex, first question is: Did that happen at the same time that mass meetings were happening with the adults? And secondly, were you aware of how those guys felt about the children&#039 ; s march? KELSEY: No. I was not aware of how they felt about the children&#039 ; s march until later when I read some things. What was the first part of your question again? ANDERSON: You mentioned Bevel taking the young people aside. KELSEY: There was a point in the mass meetings after all the speaking and singing, they invited people who wanted to be a part of the movement to come down front. And generally, that was aimed at adults. But Bevel stood up and asked for teenagers to come and meet him in the annex. So it was near the close of the meeting, kind of at a time like at our church, we have an invitation to discipleship when the minister gets through preaching, you can join the church. Well, it was an invitation to join the movement. And so he invited us to go to the fellowship hall. Well, it&#039 ; s called the church&#039 ; s annex. But that&#039 ; s what it really was. ANDERSON: So I think you answered it. But not even just the leaders, but the community as a whole, in the midst of all this excitement and buildup to a children&#039 ; s march, or youth component to all this. What was the feeling in the air in the community? KELSEY: Well, the people that I was talking to were youth, and we were excited about the opportunity to get together and do something. I was not discussing what I was going to do with adults, so I don&#039 ; t know what they were thinking or feeling. But it was like we had this thing going on and we all knew what the thing was, but we weren&#039 ; t telling anybody who might try to stop us. So there wasn&#039 ; t any discussion there. I would hear in church from the minister, certain announcements not about children, but about the movement. Things were said. But before I became involved, I didn&#039 ; t think that affected me. So I didn&#039 ; t try to pay attention to that. KELSEY: I didn&#039 ; t really get interested until some things were pointed out to me. And then I had an interest for life. Yeah. One little note that I&#039 ; ll share, my mother for a period, worked at Woodlawn High School in the cafeteria. And it was during the period, probably late 50s, a black student was trying to enroll at Woodlawn High School, and they hung a black effigy out the library window. And my mother took her apron off and walked home from Woodlawn High School to Titusville because she was so angry that they would make that kind of mockery out of what was going on. Years later, probably 90, I guess 97, my brother became the first African American principal at Woodlawn High School. So I was glad my mom lived long enough to know that and to see that. But just a little of my history. ANDERSON: That&#039 ; s a great story. Are any other stories popping to mind about ... I guess it&#039 ; s hard for me to stay focused thinking about this kiosk that we&#039 ; re going to have. Any stories about the experience of being arrested or demonstrating? KELSEY: Nothing in particular. I remember being, as I say, intimidated by that police officer, although I was not hit. I wasn&#039 ; t spit on. But we had been told that those were possibilities and that the only thing we could do was sing or pray. We could cover our heads. They told us how to get down and cover our heads if somebody hit us, but we were not to respond. And I knew some kids who decided they did not want to participate if they couldn&#039 ; t fight back. But most of the folk that I knew wanted to be in the movement. That was the thing to do, and so all of my friends, almost, went to jail. KELSEY: And in jail, I didn&#039 ; t have any fear. There was talk about homosexuality and what was going to happen to the kids. The only thing that I experienced ... Now I guess you need to put this on tape. But one of the ... What do they call them? Trustees. When it was time for me to leave, my parents were downstairs, this woman earlier in the day had commented to me about my legs. And so my girlfriends were saying, &quot ; Uh oh. You better not go around her because she&#039 ; s going to get you,&quot ; and all that. And then when my parents came, they sent her to get me, and I was a little intimidated by that, but she didn&#039 ; t say or do anything. Just took me downstairs. ANDERSON: I never thought about it until now. But was it sort of an equal number of girls and boys who participated? I think about the call to nonviolence and how difficult that was for something people to accept. It&#039 ; s just a stereotype, but I imagine it would be more difficult for the boys. KELSEY: Probably was. I don&#039 ; t really remember how many boys because where we were, they were all girls. So I don&#039 ; t know. My brother ended up at the city jail, which is in Titusville. And when he was arrested, it was raining that day. I remember them talking about having to stand out in the yard, the fenced in yard of the jail, and they stood out there a long time. And some of the women in the community made sandwiches and threw them over the fence to feed the kids. But I don&#039 ; t remember any reference to how many there were. I knew there were a lot of them. ANDERSON: Yeah. I don&#039 ; t know if anyone knows how many of y&#039 ; all were arrested, how many young people participated that day. I get that call once a year at least. Exactly how many students were arrested? I don&#039 ; t think anyone knows. KELSEY: I read somewhere that on that first day that there were 2000 kids arrested, but I don&#039 ; t really know. ANDERSON: I think it would take a real researcher to figure that out. Somebody might do it one day. But I never thought about boys, girls. You&#039 ; ve just really honored us by coming and doing this on tape. KELSEY: Thank you. ANDERSON: So anything else you would like to say? We don&#039 ; t have to cut it off. KELSEY: Well, I don&#039 ; t know. If there&#039 ; s something else you can think of, or one of you? COLEMAN: Thinking back to the days of the demonstrations, some folks, like the incident you just relayed, some folks must&#039 ; ve had some horror stories to talk about. KELSEY: Of course, yeah. COLEMAN: What do you remember about some of the negative things that happened to other students who were arrested? KELSEY: Well, I heard that some kids were released in the middle of the night without parent notification, and they had to walk home. And so some of the ministers who were providing protection, driving around, that they were picking kids up, carrying them home. I heard about kids who were hosed and skin broken, hair seared off their head, blouses torn, being pushed down the sidewalk with the force of the water. Heard about kids being bitten by German Shepherd dogs and having to go to the hospital for treatment. So I did not personally experience those things. But certainly, I did hear a lot of talk about people who did. ANDERSON: Anything else? KELSEY: Is that it? ANDERSON: I think we got some good stuff for that kiosk. We really appreciate it. KELSEY: Okay. Am I going to get to see it? ANDERSON: I would think so. KELSEY: Before it goes on the kiosk, I&#039 ; d like to see it. ANDERSON: Oh, before. SPEAKER: You look good. ANDERSON: Yeah. You look great. KELSEY: Do I? ANDERSON: You must&#039 ; ve known the whole backdrop and everything before you came because [inaudible 00:45:40]. KELSEY: Look. I matched up. ANDERSON: It&#039 ; s a perfect outfit for that. KELSEY: Oh, wow. SPEAKER: Did you ever try to get your mugshot? KELSEY: I didn&#039 ; t. My husband tried to get it, and they didn&#039 ; t ... SPEAKER: They wouldn&#039 ; t turn it. KELSEY: He ran into a problem trying to get it. And I told him I was going to try to get that because I do know somebody who got a copy of her arrest record. But I don&#039 ; t think she got her mugshot. But I would really like to have that. SPEAKER: You should be able to get it too. KELSEY: Yeah. SPEAKER: Should be. WAYNE: We tried to get it, but they denied us getting anything on privacy grounds. They say that the individual would have to give permission that it would be released. KELSEY: Well, I&#039 ; m going to try to do it because apparently that&#039 ; s the kind of thing they told him. He took the marriage license and everything to say, and they wouldn&#039 ; t do it. SPEAKER: You should be able to get your own. WAYNE: At least a copy. ANDERSON: If they know where it is. KELSEY: Yeah, yeah. Right. Well, I am going to try that because I would like to have that. Yeah. So it&#039 ; s been interesting. And I guess the reason I don&#039 ; t mind doing, talking about this and doing things like this is because I feel that if you don&#039 ; t know your history, you&#039 ; re likely to repeat it. And I see subtle ways that people try to impose the same kinds of things that were imposed on us early on. And so I guess I&#039 ; m acutely aware that racism is alive and well. And I don&#039 ; t hate anybody, but I don&#039 ; t have a lot of trust without some investigation. KELSEY: Sometimes I think I make my husband uncomfortable when we go to restaurants because I see I can be seated before another party, and sometimes they will want to serve the other party before serving me. And I&#039 ; m quick to raise a ruckus, or to get my purse and get out of there, or ask for a manager. And so I&#039 ; ve been accused of being too sensitive. I don&#039 ; t think I&#039 ; m too sensitive, but I am acutely aware when somebody is not treating me fairly. And I think, I know, now when we participated, it wasn&#039 ; t for special rights. It was for equal rights, just a level playing field. And that was not what was provided. And that&#039 ; s what I&#039 ; ve tried to instill in my children. You fight for what is right. I don&#039 ; t want anybody to give you any better advantage or better opportunity, but then don&#039 ; t deny me anything that I&#039 ; m due. KELSEY: My children went to Saint Paul&#039 ; s downtown for elementary school. And my daughter used to complain, it was about three black kids in her class, that she would raise her hand and the teacher would ignore her. I said, &quot ; But she can&#039 ; t teach that one next to you without you hearing what she&#039 ; s teaching. So you just sit in anyway and raise your hand anyway. Take your notes anyway.&quot ; They both turned out pretty good. I&#039 ; m proud of them. ANDERSON: I&#039 ; m sure they did. SPEAKER: Did you mama, after she found out that you were in jail, and your brother, how did she take it and what happened? KELSEY: I understand she was upset. But I think by the time I was released, she was relieved that nothing had happened. And I told about people and who was there and what we did and things like that to reassure her that it wasn&#039 ; t as bad as she might&#039 ; ve heard. So I think she was relieved that everything went okay. ANDERSON: Sounds to me like she would&#039 ; ve participated. KELSEY: I know she would have. ANDERSON: If she had been your age, and that she didn&#039 ; t want to be told things because she wanted you to do it. KELSEY: I am sure she would&#039 ; ve been, had she not had nine kids, she might still have participated. She was always a community activist in terms of petitioning city hall to get the streets paved and to get street lights in our neighborhoods and things like that. She was always very active in doing things like that. So I am certain, had she had the opportunity, she would be been a participant as well. ANDERSON: Sounds like it. Thank you again. KELSEY: Is that it? Okay. ANDERSON: Thank you again. KELSEY: Woo. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JKelsey2008.xml JKelsey2008.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Janice Kelsey Description An account of the resource Janice Kelsey discusses her experience participating in the Children's Crusade on May 2, 1963. She outlines the effect that her arrest, and the Movement as whole, had on the rest of her life. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 20080331K Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Bevel, James L. (James Luther), 1936-2008 Young, Andrew, 1932- Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-03-31 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/da98cdbfb9688f10104a92a37eae80dd.jpg e411f24dd47da7ebbd805cae54bb4a25 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jerome Cooper OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JCooper1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Ware, James L. OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 September 20, 1995 Jerome &quot ; Buddy&quot ; Cooper 19950920C 1:10:51 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham United Mine Workers of America Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Black, Hugo LaFayette, 1886-1971 Ware, James L. Jerome Cooper Horace Huntley Video 1:|8(11)|25(10)|39(9)|54(2)|83(13)|96(5)|119(11)|131(6)|142(5)|152(16)|168(8)|192(2)|217(5)|229(6)|239(7)|251(11)|264(7)|280(12)|288(11)|303(3)|313(7)|328(2)|340(10)|355(6)|367(4)|379(2)|390(16)|401(7)|412(11)|426(6)|443(8)|449(15)|468(3)|479(14)|487(8)|502(4)|515(8)|523(2)|540(10)|548(6)|561(8)|580(9)|591(6)|605(6)|618(9)|632(12)|640(12)|657(8)|667(1)|680(1)|688(17)|698(12)|711(4)|720(13)|729(1)|745(3)|752(13)|763(11)|776(1)|793(2)|806(11)|817(12)|826(2)|839(12)|852(3)|861(5)|877(7)|892(12)|902(14)|918(7) 0 https://youtu.be/ggSNsJMPt8g YouTube video English 28 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Attorney Jerome &quot ; Buddy&quot ; Cooper for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Jerome &quot ; Buddy&quot ; Cooper is introduced. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 60 Family &amp ; Educational Background I want to start with just a few sort of general kinds of questions about background. Cooper begins by describing his family's immigrant Eastern European background, and how during the Great Depression, his father opened his own department store and his mother worked in the home. Brookwood (Ala.) ; Cooper Brothers ; Harvard College (1780- ). Class of 1933 ; Harvard Law School ; Lithuania ; Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Poland ; South Highland School (Birmingham, Ala.) Education, Higher ; Immigrant families ; Jewish families--United States 918 The Role of Race What role did race play in your life up to that point? Cooper describes his first awareness of race in his life was the African American nurse that raised him and how she rode at the front of the bus because of his family. He continues by stating in his run for secretary in his high school's student body, that there was a distinction that other students made because Cooper was Jewish. Epithets ; Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Racism in language ; Student government--Elections Discrimination in transportation ; Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 1293 Military Experience You went into the military, was that during WWII? Cooper details that he served in the U.S. Army for 44 months, starting two days after the attack on Pearl Harbor. Army Physical Fitness Test ; Army private Military service, Voluntary--United States ; Pearl Harbor (Hawaii), Attack on, 1941 1388 Working for Justice Hugo Black See, I had had a short period of employment. From law school I worked with Judge Davis, and then, I went to Washington with Justice Black. Cooper describes the two and a half years that he worked as a law clerk for Justice Hugo Black in Washington. Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Law clerk ; United States. Supreme Court Black, Hugo LaFayette, 1886-1971 1776 The Secret Meetings of the Birmingham Unions I came back to Birmingham as an acting regional attorney for the Wage Hour Division of the U.S. Department of Labor. Cooper recalls how he and white labor representatives secretly met as a religious and labor fellowship, despite it being illegal for both interracial groups to meet together at the time. He states that they dealt with complaints in the mills and the mines, and worked to desegregate these unions. Marmion, William H. (William Henry), 1907- ; Murray, Phillip ; Redmont Hotel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Saint Mary's-on-the-Highlands Episcopal Church ; Ware, James L. Congress of Industrial Organizations (U.S.) ; Labor union meetings ; Ramsey, John Fraser, 1907- ; United Mine Workers of America ; Ware, James L. 2296 Influential Labor Leaders Before we get there, Buddy, I would like for you to just talk briefly about a couple of people. Cooper describes the labor leaders at the time, his relationships with them, and how several of the leaders endured threats and beatings. Howard, Asbury ; Lewis, John L. ; Mitch, William E. ; Streeville, Howard ; Travis, Maurice Iron and steel workers--Labor unions ; Labor leaders 2714 Paying Bail for Incarcerated Children in the Movement Now, in 1965 the State of Alabama outlawed the operation of NAACP here in Alabama and as a result of that the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized. Cooper describes how he and other members of the steel union, at the request of President John F. Kennedy, paid the bond of the children that were incarcerated at Fair Park. Children's Crusade ; Steel unions ; Streeville, Howard Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Bail--United States ; Incarceration issues ; Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 ; NAACP 3329 George Wallace &amp ; Bull Connor There was another situation also, when Wallace stood in the door with the steel workers being involved in one way or another. Cooper discusses when Governor George Wallace blocked Vivian Malone and James Hood from enrolling at the University of Alabama, and how several steel and rubber union workers stood in the crowd to prevent any Klan members or otherwise dissenters quiet. AFL-CIO ; Graham, Henry V. (1917-1999) ; Malone, Vivian ; Stand in the Schoolhouse Door ; Trammell, Asa G., 1925-2008 Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; Malone, Vivian ; Wallace, George C. (George Corley), 1919-1998 3832 Supreme Court Union Rulings You know early Supreme Court held that a labor union that had collective bargaining rights had to represent all the members of the union fairly, without regard to race. Cooper recounts several cases that went to the Alabama Supreme court where he won job rights for Black union workers. Jones v. Central of Georgia ; Mitchell v. GM&amp ; O ; Steele v. L.N.R. Co. African American labor union members ; Alabama. Supreme Court 3988 Operation New Birmingham &amp ; the Community Affairs Committee I'm not physically able to keep up the pace I did, but I have resented the fact that they had nowhere the fact that these three labor unions got these kids and enabled the negotiations to go on and gave Martin Luther King an honorable basis for talking further and I think, in a real sense, contributed to saving Birmingham. Cooper talks about how the two local organizations was able to continue the negotiations for union rights and their involvement in the Movement. Townsend, Vincent Community Affairs Committee ; Operation New Birmingham 4165 Conclusion of the Interview Buddy, you've obviously have played a tremendous role, and again, I appreciate the role that you have played and I appreciate you spending the time. Conclusion of Interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Oral History Jerome &quot ; Buddy&quot ; Cooper discusses fighting for labor rights as an acting regional attorney for the Wage Hour Division of the U.S. Department of Labor. He participated in illegal, integrated meetings with local labor leaders and unions. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Attorney Jerome &quot ; Buddy&quot ; Cooper for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College, September 20, 1995. Thank you Attorney Cooper for coming out and sitting with us today to talk about the history of Birmingham. What we are attempting to do at the Institute, of course, is develop histories that would lead us to understand from whence Birmingham has come. So again, I just want to thank you for coming out. I want to start with just a few sort of general kinds of questions about background. Tell me, where were your parents from? Are they Alabamians? COOPER: No. Well, I consider them Alabamians, but actually my mother was born in Poland and came to Birmingham when she was three months old. So when she died in her 90s, we considered her as being an early settler of Birmingham. My father was a little older than she. He was born in Lithuanian, came to this area when he was 13 years old. HUNTLEY: Where were you born? COOPER: In a little village called &quot ; Brookwood&quot ; in Tuscaloosa County. HUNTLEY: Was Brookwood a coal mining area? COOPER: Yes. Brookwood was a site of some major coal mines but it was also an agricultural area, too. I remember one coal miner telling me one time when he testified before the United States Congress on legislation to help coal miners, he raised some questions about farming and one opposed senator, said &quot ; Well, you&#039 ; re a coal miner, you wouldn&#039 ; t know anything about farming, would you.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Coal miners made so little working in the mines, we had to farm in order not to starve.&quot ; HUNTLEY: You had to do both in order to make ends meet, I assume. What was your father&#039 ; s occupation? COOPER: He was a merchant. He had operated, he and his brother, a general store in Brookwood and another one in Surles, along with his brother-in-law, (Inaudible) Kellerman. Later he was in the wholesale business in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Did your mother work outside of the home? COOPER: Yes. After the depression she did. She worked in my father&#039 ; s store. That was after the big collapse that took place in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Buddy, do you remember the depression years? COOPER: Sure. I was in college before the depression actually struck. I went to college in the fall of 1929 and that year was the big stock market crash. By 1932, when I was a junior, I mean the whole country was flat. HUNTLEY: Let&#039 ; s go back, just a bit. Tell me about your early days. Where did you start elementary and where did you graduate from high school? COOPER: Well, we moved to Birmingham from Brookwood in 1919 and I started in grammar school, South Highland school, that year, either 1919 or 1920. I think I started in the middle of the year. I graduated from South Highland grammar school and went to Phillips High School. HUNTLEY: And you graduated from Phillips High School? COOPER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Now, your family moved to Brookwood to Birmingham so your father was never a coal miner? COOPER: No. HUNTLEY: He was always a merchant? COOPER: He was a merchant. HUNTLEY: And, then, did he open stores here in Birmingham? COOPER: Before we moved to Birmingham, in fact before I was born, he and his brother moved to Birmingham and opened one of the first department stores in downtown Birmingham. HUNTLEY: What was the name of the store? COOPER: It was Cooper Brothers, just like everywhere they went, it was Cooper Brothers. HUNTLEY: Where was it located? COOPER: It was located on Second Avenue between 20th and 19th Street, which the building was later occupied by Burger Phillips and it has recently been remodeled, I forget what it&#039 ; s for. But in 1907, I think, after that store had been operating for not a very long time, my father&#039 ; s brother, his partner, became and ill and had to go to Johns Hopkins or somewhere and a very serious, panic type of depression set in and so he just paid off all his debts and closed the store and sent back to Brookwood. He didn&#039 ; t come back until 1919. HUNTLEY: What part of town did you live? COOPER: Well, at that time, of course, this was before I was born. My grandparents lived on the northside on 8th Avenue somewhere, 15th or 16th Street. HUNTLEY: In the vicinity of the Civil Rights Institute, now? COOPER: Yes. Just 2-3 blocks from here. And the house which my grandparents on my father&#039 ; s side occupied was standing until a few years ago. It&#039 ; s been torn down now. HUNTLEY: You grew up though, on the southside? COOPER: Right. On 15th Avenue and 16th Street. Our house was 1601 15th Avenue South which was right at the foot of Vulcan. HUNTLEY: So you graduated from Phillips High School, did you go to the University of Alabama? COOPER: No, I did not. I went to Harvard College. HUNTLEY: The Harvard College? COOPER: I went to &quot ; the&quot ; college. HUNTLEY: How did a young fellow from Birmingham, Alabama make that transition from Birmingham to Boston? COOPER: Well, it was a little awkward at times. I was a lost ball in the high weed, really. I was 16 years old and I had never been out of Alabama except once over the line to Chattanooga. But my father had a dedication to education and to learning. He had never had any formal education except what he had by going to parochial and Hebrew school as a little boy. And, this same lady I think I talked to you today about, Ms. Claribel! Send, who taught me Latin at Phillips High School, she had a part in interesting me in Harvard and once my father heard about it and got to know what it really stood for, he was insistent, so I went. It was pretty difficult to make the transition the first year. HUNTLEY: Well, that meant that your family then was pretty well off? COOPER: Yes. My father was quite well off at that time. That was before the stock market crash and the depreciation of values in real estate which is where his funds were. HUNTLEY: Do you remember how that affected you and your family, the depression I mean? COOPER: Oh, sure. Well, for one thing, my father had to go back to work 12 hours a day in a small retail store in Birmingham on Second Avenue. My mother went to work for $10 a week or thereabouts. We didn&#039 ; t have an automobile even after having driven big, fine cars, we rode the buses, or the streetcars still. I went to school the first year or two without much difficulty, but then, by the end of my sophomore year, I told the dean that I couldn&#039 ; t come back to Harvard, we were penniless. He said, &quot ; Well, there are many scholarships available, you&#039 ; ll have to make scholarship grades. If you do that, we don&#039 ; t want anybody to have to lose out here just because he is financially unable to pay.&quot ; So I buckled down and was fortunate enough to get a scholarship. incidentally, they gave me a scholarship when I registered as a freshman, but I hadn&#039 ; t sought one, and, when I showed it to my father, he asked me what this was all about. I said, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t know.&quot ; I think it was part of their program to maintain a national distribution in the student body. But he said, &quot ; We don&#039 ; t need that, give it back.&quot ; He said, &quot ; That might keep some boy who really needs it from coming.&quot ; So we gave it back and they gave me a little piece of paper instead. Which was fine, but two years later after his fortune had collapsed, as I said, I told him I couldn&#039 ; t come back. But, I got a scholarship and that&#039 ; s the way I continued my education. Now, I didn&#039 ; t come home. I went to Cambridge in September and came back in June. So you didn&#039 ; t come home every weekend like kids do now or even for Christmas. It cost money. HUNTLEY: Well, Buddy, were you an only child? COOPER: No. I have a sister. My older sister. HUNTLEY: So was she off in college at the same time? COOPER: Yes. That&#039 ; s right. She was ahead of me two years so she got out before the collapse had hit full bloom. HUNTLEY: So you would graduate from Harvard in &#039 ; 33? COOPER: 1933, yes. HUNTLEY: What did you do after that, after graduation? COOPER: Well, I couldn&#039 ; t get a job, of course. I tried to help my father in his store. HUNTLEY: So you came back to Birmingham? COOPER: I spent the summer here. I remember I did a lot of reading in the store and my father one day said to me, &quot ; Now, this is not a library.&quot ; But he said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m glad you want to read, if you want to, you can go to the library, but not here.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, I didn&#039 ; t see anything to do, there are no customers in here.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, work the stock.&quot ; HUNTLEY: So how long did you work for your father, was it just that summer? COOPER: Just for the summer. I could do a little typing for him. He no longer had a secretary or anything like that and I could help him. HUNTLEY: In the fall then, what did you do? COOPER: I went back to law school. After I graduated, I went back to law school in Cambridge. HUNTLEY: Back to Harvard? COOPER: Harvard law. I got a scholarship there. HUNTLEY: And you graduated from Harvard Law School? COOPER: That&#039 ; s right. incidentally, I wasn&#039 ; t a football player and I was a fair tennis player, but I had to get the grades to get my scholarship and I&#039 ; ve always had a strange reaction to these stories about scholarship holders in college these days who are scholarship only in the sense that they get money from the university, but they are hardly scholars. Some of them are, there are a few, of course. HUNTLEY: There are some, but that whole idea of scholarship is probably changed since that time. COOPER: Well, it&#039 ; s a misnomer. I think they ought to just call them paid athletes. HUNTLEY: Do you think they should pay them? COOPER: I would have no objection to that if it was done openly. HUNTLEY: Because some are paid, I assume? COOPER: Yes. But, it&#039 ; s illegal and improper and I don&#039 ; t know whether it would work even if it was legal, Horace, because there are professional leagues where people can go and work as athletes if they have the ability. HUNTLEY: Right. Well, Buddy, after you finished law school, what does Buddy Cooper do? COOPER: Well, I was recommended by the dean of Harvard Law School, who was then Roscoe Pound, famous figure up there. I was appointed law clerk, it was really secretary, but they didn&#039 ; t call us law clerks then, to David J. Davis. Judge David J. Davis who was the United States District Judge for the Northern District of Alabama. We only had one federal judge in the whole of north Alabama then and I worked with him for not quite a year. He was a grand man and a wonderful fellow. He was from somewhere in north Alabama from a farm, but he had worked his way through Exeter or one of those New England secondary schools. He actually rode in a covered wagon from Wedowee, I think it&#039 ; s been the same town that&#039 ; s been in the news so much, to Oklahoma. His family went in a covered wagon from Alabama to Oklahoma and homesteaded a farm and did fairly well for a year or two, but they had a bad crop or something and they came back. And he went through this secondary school and directly to Yale Law School. I don&#039 ; t think he went to college. He got a scholarship to Yale Law School was on the law journal and he wrote. For a district judge, he handled some very important things. He wrote an opinion and judgment sustaining the Social Security Act, for example which started in a lawsuit here in the northern district of Alabama. HUNTLEY: What role did race play in your life up to that point? You have come out of law school, and you had lived in Birmingham for those years. COOPER: Well, Birmingham was still a frontier town really in terms of sociology and race. Everything was segregated. We had some dear people, like the Black lady, who was our nurse in our home, who came with us from Brookwood and lived with us. HUNTLEY: She didn&#039 ; t have a family? COOPER: I think she did, but I think they stayed in Brookwood. I think she was quite elderly. That&#039 ; s my best guess and I think her children had married, but we were small. My sister and I, we were little kids. I was 6 or 7 years old and she was 7 or 8 years old. And this lady, it&#039 ; s kind of humorous when I think back, although it&#039 ; s a sign of the tragic way people had to live then, she would take us on a picnic from the southside. My mother would fix a big basket and she would take the two of us and we would get on the streetcar there on the southside and come to town and transfer. We would take the Tidewater line out to Avondale Park and spend the day. They had an elephant there, Miss Fancy, and a few other little animals and a pond of fish. Then we would retrace our steps. But on the streetcar, we sat in the White section and she sat with us. And once or twice the White motorman, I don&#039 ; t remember, it&#039 ; s been so long ago, but he evidently remonstrated, and she told him where to go. We were her children. HUNTLEY: So she actually sat in the front of the bus? COOPER: She actually sat wherever we sat. And that&#039 ; s where we found a seat. HUNTLEY: She was never arrested? There was no commotion? COOPER: No, there was no scene about it or anything. HUNTLEY: So were those your first memories of race playing a part in your life? COOPER: Yes. I remember her as she worked for my mother in Brookwood. But I just remember that she was there. I have no real impressions about it. For instance, one of the earliest things I can recall instruction wise, was my father and I loved to walk together on Sundays. We were out walking one day and I don&#039 ; t remember how the subject came up, but I said something about someone. I was quoting someone, it wasn&#039 ; t my language, who used the word &quot ; nigger.&quot ; And, my father said to me, &quot ; Nice people don&#039 ; t use that word.&quot ; And I said, &quot ; Well, what am I supposed to say.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; You say, colored people.&quot ; Now, of course, it&#039 ; s assumed another form. I understand some Black people don&#039 ; t care whether it&#039 ; s colored or Black, but other people are very sensitive about it. I never forgot that. &quot ; Nice people don&#039 ; t.&quot ; And he never did. I don&#039 ; t ever recall. HUNTLEY: As you grew up when you were at Phillips High School, for instance, were there any instances in your memory where race may have played a role? COOPER: No, because there were no Black kids there. The one incident that I can recall, I&#039 ; ve always been sort of a frustrated politician, and I&#039 ; m glad I was frustrated in most instances. But, I ran for the secretary of the student body and it was a big political thing. HUNTLEY: This is at Phillips? COOPER: Right. I mean, I don&#039 ; t remember how many kids there were, 1,500 or 2,000. It was a big school. And the political campaign was one of the big events of the year. And one of my campaigners came up to me and said, &quot ; Buddy, so and so has put out the word that you&#039 ; re Jewish.&quot ; And I said, &quot ; Well, I am.&quot ; He said, &quot ; You are?&quot ; But I won anyway. I beat a very prominent, very fine lady from a very distinguished social family in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: There were no other incidences as a result of you being Jewish as a result of the student body finding that out? COOPER: I don&#039 ; t recall any. I do recall having a couple of scrapes. See, I never objected to someone referring to me as being Jewish. I&#039 ; m backslid Jewish philosophically, but it depends on the circumstances. If someone said to me, &quot ; You Jew,&quot ; I might dislike that. I might have taken them on. But, if someone just said, &quot ; I understand you&#039 ; re Jewish.&quot ; Well, I am. Just as someone would say to you, well, you happen to be Black, you would say, &quot ; Well, yes I am.&quot ; But if someone said, &quot ; You Black so and so,&quot ; you&#039 ; d have a different reaction. We had our problems. HUNTLEY: Right. You went into the military, was that during World War II? COOPER: It was in World War 11, I enlisted two days after Pearl Harbor, December 9, 1941. HUNTLEY: How long did you spend in the military? COOPER: Forty-four months. I went into the Army as a private and stayed a very short time. Things were in such a hectic mess, they hadn&#039 ; t changed the rules from peace time to war time, you know this thing fell on us. So after I had passed my physical by bribing a sergeant who knew I couldn&#039 ; t pass the eye test, I got his help and he said, &quot ; Sure, I&#039 ; ll get you by.&quot ; They told me they couldn&#039 ; t keep me in the Army because I had dependents or something and they hadn&#039 ; t provided for that. HUNTLEY: You were married at the time? COOPER: Yes. I was married and had a kid and another one on the way. It was cruel thing I did, in a way, to my wife and kids, but I would do again. Because, while I was raised a pacifist, I had decided from what I knew then that I didn&#039 ; t want to live in a world run by Adolph Hitler. HUNTLEY: So you spent 44 months in the military and after the military you came back to Birmingham? COOPER: See, I had had a short period of employment. From law school I worked with Judge Davis and, then, I went to Washington with Justice Black. He kind of skipped that. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. COOPER: Well, he was a former law partner of Judge Davis so he knew about me from Judge Davis, I take it and other people I guess that he knew in Birmingham. When he was appointed to the Supreme Court he had someone call me at the federal court where I was working. He said that Judge Black wanted me to come to Washington and be his law clerk. Frequently it happens that a law clerk from a court of appeals judge or district judge will be elevated. I mean, that was not unusual, I don&#039 ; t think. Of course, my heart stopped beating when the judge called me in the office and told me that. I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ll have to ask my fa th er.&quot ; So the judge laughed and said into the phone, &quot ; He want&#039 ; s to talk to his Daddy first.&quot ; So I ran up to my Daddy&#039 ; s store and told him this wonderful call had come and he thought a minute and he said, &quot ; Well, let me tell you something , J.A..&quot ; It so happens my judge that I worked for then had taken the place of a judge who had been sick for a year or more and the cases had piled up and he and I both were working day and night. He said, &quot ; You go back and tell Judge Davis that you won&#039 ; t take that job if it will in anyway inconvenience him and that you want to do whatever is in his best interest first.&quot ; That was a pretty remarkable thing for him to say, as I look back on it. So I went back and I told the judge that and he laughed and he said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ve got 100 applications.&quot ; HUNTLEY: What do you remember most about clerking for Hugo Black? COOPER: Well, there are a number of things really. I remember the first day. I remember very sharply the first day or one of the first days when I met him. I went to Washington and met him. He was a very warm, genial man and, of course, one of my heroes. I confess to an honest bias about him. He is one of the great miracles of my life time . HUNTLEY: Why do you look on him as one of those great miracles of your life time? COOPER: Well, for this very simple reason. People ask me, you know he was a member of the Ku Klux Klan, for example, which was a problem that many people saw. He had difficulty, if not an impossibility of being elected in those times without Klan support, because everybody was in the Klan, that is the judges, governors, the senators. Not all, but virtually everybody was. HUNTLEY: As a political necessity? COOPER: Yes. Just as a political necessity. But, he&#039 ; s a miracle. I can&#039 ; t explain how a man born into slavery, he lived on the frontier of Alabama in a slave culture. mean there had been no freedom of the Blacks, technically, they were no longer slaves, but the way they lived, the opportunities for them was still terribly, terribly limited. Now, how did it happen that this person born in that atmosphere, in that culture, had within him somehow the seeds of this international vision, this concept of mankind, of all men being able to walk erect, all men and women to live in freedom? How did that come about? It didn&#039 ; t happen to his brother. It didn&#039 ; t happen to the neighbor next door. It wasn&#039 ; t in his father . It&#039 ; s just a miracle, it just happened. I can&#039 ; t explain it. Now, all the historians and psychologists got all kind of reasons. HUNTLEY: Sure. People are always attempting to explain how, in fact, he, in the 1920s could be a member of the Ku Klux Klan and, then, eventually make it into the Supreme Court and being one of those pivotal justices in creating what would eventually happen in the country. COOPER: I often say to people, you know there were a lot of people who got ugly about that Klan business. &quot ; What are you doing here with the judge?&quot ; And I&#039 ; d say to them, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m sorry he was a member of the Klan. I don&#039 ; t try to defend the Klan in any way, it&#039 ; s contrary to all my inner instincts, but one thing I am grateful for, no one ever intimated that Hugo Black ever participated in any of the atrocities, the terrible things that the Klan did.&quot ; He made speeches and went to their meetings and got their votes when he could. In fact, he used to like to say, &quot ; I didn&#039 ; t get their endorsement, but I got their votes.&quot ; A man from Walker County, from Jasper was actually the technical Klan endorsee in 1926 when the judge was first elected to the Senate. HUNTLEY: How long did you clerk with him? COOPER: Three terms. Not quite three years, two and a half years. HUNTLEY: And, after that, did you come back to Birmingham? COOPER: I came back to Birmingham as a acting regional attorney for the Wage Hour Division of the U. S. Department of Labor. The minimum wage law, the Wage/Hour Bill had just become law and I was one of that bunch of communists who were trying to get the minimum wage, the average wage in the textile industry, for instance, in this area up from .1o cents an hour to .25 cent. HUNTLEY: That was communistic, I would say. COOPER: Oh, yeah. We were destroying the country and all the underpinnings. HUNTLEY: Well, upon your return you are then becoming a labor lawyer. You obviously started to have relationships with people who are looking at labor but also· race. And I know that in 1946 you were part of a group that started a religious and labor fellowship. Can you tell me something about how that all came about? COOPER: Well, that was set up by Phil Murray, who was president of the steel workers and the CIO at that time who was dedicated to the principals that the CIO and the United Mine Workers had professed. That is to represent all people without discrimination of any kind based on race, creed or national origin. This was to be one of the stepping stones that Phil had in mind. He sent this fellow, John Ramsey, a very nice man, he was White, and he was a lay leader in the Presbyterian Church, I think. He came here and got this group together of union officers and ministers. A small group, maybe 20 or 30 people. I wish I could remember their names. One was a lovely man named Ware, who was a young Black minister. HUNTLEY: Rev. Ware? COOPER: Rev. Ware. He and I became good friends. He later was in the CAC committee. He was a militant in a decent persuasive sort of way. People loved him, I think. But anyway, we had luncheon meetings and I remember meeting at the Redmont Hotel and I can&#039 ; t remember... HUNTLEY: Now, wasn&#039 ; t it against the law for Blacks and Whites to meet together in &#039 ; 46? COOPER: Yes, indeed. HUNTLEY: How did you carry that off? COOPER: Well, we sneaked in and evidently there was a sympathetic manager of the Redmont who was cooperative, I can&#039 ; t recall exactly how that happened. But, we met a time or two and we had lunch. We were either in a basement or in a separate room somewhere where they kept it invisible to the public that we were segregating together. After we met a time or two like that, someone said, &quot ; We call ourselves a religion and labor fellowship. But, we never meet in a religious atmosphere. We meet in this basement or this room in the hotel. Why don&#039 ; t we meet in some place that had some connection with religion.&quot ; And we all agreed that that would be a good thing to do. So we went around the table to see how we could do it. Well, two or three of them said, &quot ; Gosh, I would like to do it at my church, but I have to be honest about it, I think it would cause all kind of commotion.&quot ; And, I said, &quot ; I know I can&#039 ; t get permission at my temple. That&#039 ; s disgraceful, but I can&#039 ; t do it. I&#039 ; m not much influence there anyway on anything.&quot ; So, there was a lovely young Episcopal minister named Mormian. I can&#039 ; t remember his first name. Dr. Mormian, he must have had a doctorate. He was at St. Mary&#039 ; s on the Highlands Episcopal Church. Now that&#039 ; s an old, established fashionable church. A lot of socially prominent people and business prominent people. He said, &quot ; We&#039 ; ll have our next weekly or monthly meeting at my church.&quot ; Well, that sounded good. It was revolutionary. So we met there and we met in the rectory or whatever that side building is. We sat at tables and the White ladies of the sisterhood served us. The air was electric. They walked in like automatons and they were polite and they served us and nobody said a word. I guess Dr. Mormian said grace, I don&#039 ; t remember. HUNTLEY: Was the group about 50/50 Black and White? COOPER: To my best recollection, we tried to make it that way. HUNTLEY: What kinds of issues did you deal with? COOPER: Well, we dealt with complaints in the mills and the mines. What can we do to improve the seniority situation. Of course, it was easy for the mine workers. They never had the variety of jobs that we had in the steel mills. But, John Ramsey would talk about spreading the feeling of brotherhood. After all, a union is a brotherhood and I can&#039 ; t give you any real agendas. HUNTLEY: Many of the unions at that time, of course, were segregated unions? COOPER: Well all the building trades were, just about. HUNTLEY: Yes. All the AFL basically. Was the CIO sort of on the threshold with the southern organizing drive in bringing Black organizers in? COOPER: Yes. But the steel workers, by 1946 and &#039 ; 47 when this was done, they had organized the basic steel industry and while there were complaints still that the minorities, Blacks and women, there were a few women who had gotten in during the war when there was a manpower shortage, they were in the union and they were receiving benefits. They got the same insurance, the same vacations and the same rates of pay for a given job. But, the problem was the top job were almost universally White jobs and they were actually separate lines of promotion. It was the policy of the steel workers to merge those lines of promotion and we did. We didn&#039 ; t really get it going too well until, I think it was President Truman issued an executive order which prohibited contracts with employers who discriminated on the basis of race, religion and so forth. So that gave us some legal status to move with. And we began merging. When Martin Luther King came to Birmingham, I think Mr. Shuttlesworth had persuaded him to come here. I&#039 ; m not sure, if I&#039 ; m correct about that. But he was somewhere else and he came here and out of that eventuated these crowds of students. HUNTLEY: Before we get there, Buddy, I would like for you to just talk briefly talk about a couple of people. You knew Bill Mitch. COOPER: Senior? HUNTLEY: Yes. COOPER: Yes. He&#039 ; s the father of my partner for 40 years. HUNTLEY: Tell me about him as a person. COOPER: Well, he came here as a union man. He was one of John L. Lewis&#039 ; arms and his job was to organize the coal mines. He organized people, whoever they were, men, women, communists, White, Black, in the mine workers union. He really laid the foundation for what came about in the CIO later on. I&#039 ; m not too sure about my history, but in the early strikes in the coal mines in the 20s, seemed like to me that I recall the employers brought in strike breakers, most of whom were Black, from the fields and they were pretty good jobs to a man who made .50 cents a day to make $2.00 a day. But Mr. Mitch was a brave man, a big man physically. He just told them that there wasn&#039 ; t going to be any Ku Klux Klan in the mine workers. That the constitution forbade it and he was going to organize people all on the same {Inaudible). He was a great influence and he was so impeccably honest. There were no issues. He didn&#039 ; t publish any books and make a million dollars off of it. He just got the job done. He was a great man. HUNTLEY: How about Howard Streeville? COOPER: Howard was a younger Bill Mitch. He took over. It was his job. He was sent here to answer the complaints that many Blacks were making that seniority was still discriminatory and needed to be cleared up. Howard started out doing that­ -merging the lines of promotion, getting threatened over the phone. Getting me threatened over the phone at night. Having people call and saying we know where you are. That&#039 ; s not a very pleasant experience. &quot ; We know where you are, you so and so and we&#039 ; re coming out there tonight. Streeville is a great big fellow. He didn&#039 ; t scare very easy. HUNTLEY: You were surrounded by a lot of great big fellows. COOPER: Right. I was very pleased to have them. HUNTLEY: What about Asbury Howard? COOPER: Well, Asbury unfortunately, my relations with him sort of broke off after that. got to know him when the mine and mill union was a going union here, a big union, and an important part of the CIO. It wasn&#039 ; t until 3-4 years after that that this warfare broke out between the steel workers and the smelter workers. Asbury chose the side of the mine/mill. I was the lawyer for the steel workers. We were still friends. HUNTLEY: He was one of the original organizers for mine/mill in the 30s. COOPER: Right. I think so. It&#039 ; s a strange thing. One of the fellows, Travis, I think was his name, was the president of mine/mill was badly beaten up during the course of that campaign. HUNTLEY: He was, I believe, on the board of directors, Maurice Travis and they had a big fight and he lost an eye. COOPER: Yes. He lost an eye. After the election was over, he filed a lawsuit against the steel workers for the damages that he suffered in that fight, and maybe other things too, but I remember that. We represented the steel workers in that and I negotiated a settlement. If I do say so, I told the steel workers we can defend that sort of thing. The man&#039 ; s been hurt, he shouldn&#039 ; t have been and he should be paid, and they paid him. I don&#039 ; t remember what it was. HUNTLEY: Asbury Howard... COOPER: Asbury came to see me at that time, together, I don&#039 ; t know if Travis came with him, I think it was Cliff Durr, who was representing them. The fellow that later became an assistant general counsel of the steel workers, I can&#039 ; t recall his name. He had been in the labor board years before. The three of them came to me to discuss settlement of that case. I remember Asbury didn&#039 ; t have much to say, but I think he was probably negotiating at that time to get himself on the staff of the steel workers, I am not sure. HUNTLEY: There was an effort by the steel workers to get the former mine/mill officialdom and their followers to join the steel workers and there were many that did because Asbury would eventually become an official with the steel workers. COOPER: Right. But what I remember in that meeting, in my office, he didn&#039 ; t say very much. Asbury didn&#039 ; t say very much, but when they got up to leave, we shook hands and I told him goodbye, he was the last one to shake hands with me and he handed me a piece of paper. It said something like, &quot ; I want to talk to you.&quot ; Whether we ever talked again or not, I don&#039 ; t recall. I think he and I remained friends. HUNTLEY: He was attacked in the Bessemer Courthouse, I believe? COOPER: I think it was right outside the courthouse, on the sidewalk, where I think the Registrars were sitting, as I recall. Asbury was leading a small group, of 5, 6, or 7 Blacks into register. Evidently they were told they couldn&#039 ; t go in and they tried to go in or something, and the cops just beat them. HUNTLEY: Right. Even beat his son and some other people as well. COOPER: There were several people, I don&#039 ; t remember. HUNTLEY: Now, in 1956 the State of Alabama outlawed the operation of NAACP here in Alabama and as a result of that the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized, Fred Shuttlesworth. Between &#039 ; 56 and &#039 ; 63 the Movement, the Alabama Christian Movement was involved in a number of different efforts to change the status quo. In &#039 ; 57 Fred and his wife attempted to, in fact, to enroll their children in Phillips High school. COOPER: Oh, yes. There&#039 ; s a picture of Mr. Shuttlesworth leading his girl, holding her hand up at Phillips High School and on each sides of the steps there were these leering fellows with their sticks. I don&#039 ; t know if they had ball bats or something. But, that picture reminded me of the picture that appeared in the New York Times, I think it was before we got into the war, I guess it was 1940. It showed a young Jewish couple, a husband and wife, leading their little girl somewhere. Anyway, it was just like that picture and on the sides were mobs of people , storm troopers and ordinary civilians, just laughing and having fun seeing this little child&#039 ; s frightened to death. And I thought of how universal this hatred is. HUNTLEY: ...to assist in changing the status quo between April 1 and... COOPER: What year was this? HUNTLEY: This was in &#039 ; 63. COOPER: In &#039 ; 63, and the Civil Rights Law was &#039 ; 64. HUNTLEY: Right. COOPER: So this was the year before that, and it didn&#039 ; t become effective until &#039 ; 65, did it? HUNTLEY: It was passed in &#039 ; 64. But, during this time, of course, there were many marches and many people were incarcerated. Children, thousands, and I know that you played some role in helping to facilitate bail money for these children. Can you tell me about that? COOPER: Yes, I&#039 ; m not turf tending here today, because I consider myself only as, Mr. Colonel likes to refer to, as a foot soldier in all this. But while Martin Luther King and this group of merchants were meeting here, the demonstrations, these crowds of school kids kind of swept through downtown, through the stores. I was working downtown, I don&#039 ; t remember too much about it, but I should have. But, Howard Streeville was in the midst of combining lines of promotion out at Fairfield. And, he and Mr. Far, the director, was standing there in the window of the office and they could see this great group of kids coming up the street or up the sidewalk and Mr. Far said, &quot ; We&#039 ; re halfway through this but you think we ought to slow up a little while because some of this...&quot ; HUNTLEY: Who was Mr. Far? COOPER: He was the District Director of the steel workers at that time. Howard was his assistant. And Howard said, &quot ; Hell, Mr. Far, we&#039 ; re up to our ears in it now, we&#039 ; ll go on ahead and we&#039 ; ll just finish it now.&quot ; So while there was this great conflict between the merchants and (Inaudible) we were trying hard to get the job done where it really counted. In the meantime, Bull arrested a whole bunch of kids. I don&#039 ; t remember, it could have been several hundred. I don&#039 ; t remember the numbers. But, the jail was full and they had them corralled somewhere out at Fair Park or some place, and I got a phone call and I want to tell this very accurately, because I told it a time or two and try not to, I think I make some of my experiences sound a little bit too good, but this...about somewhere late at night, 11:00 or 12:00 my phone rang. It was the general counsel of the steel workers union, David Fellow. Arthur Goldberg had then gone to be Secretary of Labor. And Davy, we called him, said to me, &quot ; Buddy, President Kennedy has had Bobby, that was the Attorney General, contact Walter Reuther and Dave McDonald to put up the bond to get these kids out jail in Birmingham. Now, the background of that is that the city, it used to cost a minimal amount to appeal a case from the City court to the circuit court, I don&#039 ; t remember, it was just a few dollars. They had passed some sort of ordinance to raise the cost to appeal a nuisance or interference with passage or whatever they had charged these kids with. Probably with illegal congregating or something. They passed an ordinance of some kind that raised the charge, the bond to something like $2,500 each as I remember. Anyway it was a total of over $200,000 that they wanted. It seemed like to me that they wanted $240,000 and the President had asked the steel workers, the AFL-CIO and auto workers to put up that money. And I said, &quot ; But, Davy, I don&#039 ; t know whether we legally can do this. This is trust money that the unions own. Surely if a group of union members get arrested because they are doing something as members of the Klan, we&#039 ; re not going to put up money for them.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, maybe not, but the President wants this done.&quot ; And I said, &quot ; Well, then, we&#039 ; ll do it.&quot ; But, I had to clear it with Mr. Far, the director and Howard Streeville. So I called them in the middle of the night, got them up and gave them this outline. I said, &quot ; We&#039 ; ve got to do it. The President wants us. He thinks the interest of the country requires it and I think it does.&quot ; Of course all three of us got to recognize as soon as this word gets out we&#039 ; ll be looking for a job. And, they said, &quot ; We know that. But, if the President says this is what&#039 ; s required, then this is what we&#039 ; ll do.&quot ; So, I said, &quot ; Okay. I&#039 ; ll pass the word.&quot ; So I called Davy back and told him that it would be done. I forget now how mechanically they transmitted the money, I think they did it by telegraph or something. Anyway there were only three people that knew where the money was. That was a fellow named Smith, and I can&#039 ; t recall his first name. A young lawyer who was sort of representing these merchants, and the president of Birmingham Trust Bank, who later went from here to Montgomery, I&#039 ; ve got his name somewhere. But anyway, he was going to open some kind of special account to segregate this money in and pay it into the court registry and they sent me some kind of wire and I took it up to this Smith boy&#039 ; s office and I said, &quot ; Now, the money is here, we three, you, this banker and I are the only ones that know about this or know how it&#039 ; s being handled.&quot ; I&#039 ; m sure others knew about it. &quot ; And we are the ones who will catch the hell for it, so welcome.&quot ; And, I didn&#039 ; t hear anymore about that for a good while because Smith or somebody took the money up to the city court registry and put it on deposit with them and the kids got out. And I had to tell Mr. Far and Howard this. Fellow had said that Martin Luther Kings says if those kids are not out by, I don&#039 ; t remember the time, the demonstrations and everything are going to start all over again. So, it was something that had to be done immediately. It was a decent thing to do. I&#039 ; m very glad to have been a small part of it. I won&#039 ; t say that I wasn&#039 ; t nervous. HUNTLEY: That would not have been a popular thing to do at the time? COOPER: Oh, it would have been horrible. HUNTLEY: There was another situation also, when Wallace stood in the door with the steel workers being involved in one way or another. Can you tell me that story? COOPER: I can&#039 ; t remember who was trying to get into Alabama? Was it Lucy or .... HUNTLEY: No. This was after Lucy. This was Vivian Malone, I believe. COOPER: Anyway, it was when one of those cases when some Black lady was going to register or something and Wallace had said he was going to stand in the door and prevent it. The Attorney General and the Federal Government was dispatching a body of troops down there. We had Henry Graham, General Henry Graham showed up and Wallace postured out there a minute or two in the doorway. But before that, what you were asking about, I think is Ace Trammel, who was then, I believe he was the secretary of the AFL-CIO at that time, (Inaudible). Ace had called me and had the president or the lawyer for the rubber workers, I think. No, it was a boy who was an Assistant United States Attorney General for Civil Rights. HUNTLEY: We&#039 ; ll figure his name out. COOPER: I&#039 ; ll figure it out in a minute. He had been counsel for IBM before he took this job, or later he became counsel for IBM. He called me, along with Wissel White, who later became some kind of attorney general, assistant attorney general, later went on to the Supreme Court. And, what they wanted to know was if we could get some White union people who would mingle out in the crowd and keep the Klan or anybody who got out of line quiet. They didn&#039 ; t want anything to happen is really what they wanted. And they had to be big boys and those who were committed to our philosophy that were willing to do it. And Ace said, &quot ; Yes, I&#039 ; ll do it.&quot ; Ace was a pretty big boy in those days. He said, &quot ; I can get two or three other fellows from the local union there. I think it was the rubber workers local union in Tuscaloosa which had a lot of Klan influence in it, unfortunately. But these 3-4 guys who were out in the mob, and their assignment as I understood, was if you see anybody getting too loud, quiet them down. Don&#039 ; t let anything happen. And nothing did happen. General Graham marched up the steps to the Governor and gave him a smart salute and said, &quot ; Set aside, Governor.&quot ; And he stepped aside. Well, the thing that I can&#039 ; t remember too well is whether I was there or whether I heard this and talked about it so many times that I think I was there. But, I believe I was because someone told me in this money that was created in the last year or so that won all the prizes about the fellow going to Washington...do you know what I&#039 ; m talking about? HUNTLEY: No. COOPER: Some very popular movie. HUNTLEY: And you appeared in the movie? COOPER: I think I&#039 ; m in that movie. Now, I may be just imagining things. But I&#039 ; m almost sure I was. But anyway, that thing went off without a hitch, you remember. She did register. Wallace backed down and the troops didn&#039 ; t have to do anything. HUNTLEY: How would you characterize Wallace and Bull Conner during that period? COOPER: Well, Wallace was a good deal smarter than Bull Conner. Bull Conner was a rather stupid fellow, I think in many respects. Wallace was a bright guy. The tragedy is his brightness and his intellect and his capacity to control people were not directed in the right directions. He made the wrong choice. I think it&#039 ; s one of the great tragedies of our lifetimes. Like I said earlier to you, if he had just come out and said, look folks, the Supreme Court has acted, we are law abiding people, I&#039 ; m your Governor. I&#039 ; m telling you it&#039 ; s tough, I know it&#039 ; s a difficult thing to do. HUNTLEY: Do you think that would have made a big difference? COOPER: I think the people would have done what he said. Of course it would have made a big difference, just as if...he was so popular, you remember. Just if Eisenhower, General Eisenhower is President, if he had come out and said the Supreme Court has acted, now let&#039 ; s don&#039 ; t have any trouble here, let&#039 ; s get the schools integrated, going on about building our country and building our communities , it would have gone like a charm. Instead, he went around grumbling and growling about what the Supreme Court was doing until he had to do something and, then, he acted the way a general acts. He sent in the troops. So, instead of having the solution, we had 3, 30 years of warfare. But those are two tragic things. Those two men had power, had control over people&#039 ; s minds. HUNTLEY: Do you think Bull Conner had the same kind of power and control? COOPER: No. I don&#039 ; t think so. I&#039 ; ve heard big businessmen in Birmingham during his hey day like, Mervin Sterne, who was a good man in many respects, but he was in the White leadership that wanted things to remain as they were, White. I heard him say once in a group, &quot ; Bull is a crude sort of fellow, but he&#039 ; s honest.&quot ; Which to me is absurd. What was he honest about? He was an honest racist. He believed he was the master. That episode, I think, I want people to remember that when they&#039 ; re told about, or when they read this stuff that the chamber of commerce has put out at times and Newt Gingrich and others put out about the labor unions and their wildness and unreasonable attitude about (Inaudible), remember I think in that one incident, if they didn&#039 ; t save Birmingham, they certainly preserved it a long time before it would have otherwise been preserved. They not only put their jobs on the line, they put their well being on the line. They put their family, they shot through Howard Streeville&#039 ; s house. His wife and kid were in there. My wife and kid were sleeping in the back room when I had the guy on the phone telling me they were on the way to bomb my house. That was a very unhealthy feeling. HUNTLEY: Buddy, I&#039 ; m sure that we could go on for another two days with the stories that you have about this particular period and maybe we will do that in another two days. Is there any other thing that we have not touched base on that you just can&#039 ; t hold that you would like to share? We have another five minutes or so. COOPER: Well, this is a little bit of turf tending, I guess. You know early the Supreme Court held that a labor union that had collective bargaining rights had to represent all the members of the union fairly, without regard to race. That was Steelcase Steel v. L &amp ; N Railroad. That came out of Birmingham and it went to the circuit court that dismissed the case on the pleadings. HUNTLEY: What was that &#039 ; 50 or &#039 ; 51? COOPER: Somewhere in there. No it was before that. It was before the war. It went to the Supreme Court of the United States and they reverse, but nothing ever happened. I don&#039 ; t know what happened to that case and when we were trying the Jim and (Inaudible) case and the Central of Georgia cases which were based on the same thing, Hugo and I filed that in 1950, filed those two cases. We won job rights back for some hundreds of elderly Black firemen who had been firemen on the diesels, I mean the coal burners and when the diesels came in they gave that seniority all to promotables who were White. In the middle of that trial, and the decision that we got in that case, and it was affirmed, was the first actual judgment, certainly in this area, and possibly in the court in the country, where those rights, which the Supreme Court had declared, were actually implemented in concrete terms. That was (Inaudible) and Jones v. Central of Georgia. I wrote that down because I knew I&#039 ; d forget it. Mitchell v. the GM &amp ; 0.He was one of the few young Black firemen. He was our principal witness in that case and we tried it in the Federal Court and it was in the winter time, I think, and it would be dark before we&#039 ; d come out sometimes. And we&#039 ; d be out there and I&#039 ; d have 2-3 of these big White steel workers to meet me. HUNTLEY: So you were obviously in the thick of things. COOPER: We tried to be. HUNTLEY: Well, thank you for taking the time out today out of your busy schedule. COOPER: Thank you. I&#039 ; ve got more time than money these days I&#039 ; ve found in these golden years. I&#039 ; m not physically able to keep up the pace I did, but I have resented the fact that they had nowhere publicized the fact that these three labor unions got these kids and enabled the negotiations to go on and gave Martin Luther King an honorable basis for talking further and I think, in a real sense, contributed to saving Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Well, you are now on record. Straightening the record out, clearing the record up. COOPER: Well, don&#039 ; t you think it strange. I&#039 ; ve asked Bob Calvin at the ONB, I said, &quot ; Now, on this breakfast program, it&#039 ; s fine to talk about the merchants who negotiated this thing, I&#039 ; m all for them. They didn&#039 ; t put up any money, but they did negotiated. But the people that put up the money ought to be recognized. HUNTLEY: So Operation New Birmingham basically is dealing with the merchants rather than labor? COOPER: Well, I joined Operation New Birmingham on the commitment from the business manager of the Birmingham News, Vincent Townsend. I told Vincent, I said, &quot ; I have a lot of friends in the Chamber of Commerce and a lot of fine people and they do a lot of good things. But, they&#039 ; re so politically opposed to me, I can&#039 ; t be a member of that.&quot ; And I have to oppose them so many times. And he said, &quot ; Well, now ONB is not going to be, it&#039 ; s separate from the Chamber and on that commitment, I became a member of it and set up this CAC Committee. He asked me to and I set it up along with Albert Smith. HUNTLEY: CAC? COOPER: That&#039 ; s the Community Affairs Committee. That&#039 ; s where we got Cecil Bauer and the president of this school, whose name we couldn&#039 ; t think of, and I can&#039 ; t think of it now. What was his name? Curry, no. That&#039 ; s troubling. Well, anyway, the two of them really made the Community Affairs Committee got us off the ground. And Vincent Townsend is entitled to a great deal of credit for it. Vincent and I used to break many a sword. When he was coming up, he was a scraper and he stepped up on a lot of people&#039 ; s backs getting up there, but when he got up there he wanted to use his power to aid this community to be a better place. HUNTLEY: Buddy, you&#039 ; ve obviously have played a tremendous role, and again I appreciate the role that you played and I appreciate you spending the time. We&#039 ; ll try to do this again at some later date. COOPER: I hope we can. You will deal with matter appropriately. HUNTLEY: Yes. I will. Again, thank you for coming. COOPER: Well, thank you for asking me and I hope I can come again. I want to tell you and these good people here, it&#039 ; s a matter of great pride to me that, as the old baseball players say, &quot ; The shadows blinking and got the infield pulled in, that my name is on the Board of Directors of this great place.&quot ; I&#039 ; m very proud of that. HUNTLEY: We appreciate the role that you are playing there as well, Buddy. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JCooper1995.xml JCooper1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jerome "Buddy" Cooper Description An account of the resource Jerome "Buddy" Cooper discusses fighting for labor rights as an acting regional attorney for the Wage Hour Division of the U.S. Department of Labor. He participated in illegal, integrated meetings with local labor leaders and unions. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950920C Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham United Mine Workers of America Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Black, Hugo LaFayette, 1886-1971 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-09-20 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/b001cd9f5dde71e3514d53047bb14518.jpg 1f2cb5685caa6ec912dc1b0b2b61fade Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jessie Champion Sr. OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JChampion1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Connor, Bull WBRC (Radio station : Birmingham, Ala.) OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 November 1, 1995 Jesse Champion Sr. 19951101C 0:38:19 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham A.H. Parker High School Band Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Connor, Bull WBRC (Radio station : Birmingham, Ala.) Jessie Champion Sr. Horace Huntley Video 1:|13(3)|37(4)|58(13)|85(3)|108(13)|128(3)|152(3)|169(12)|197(12)|224(12)|244(11)|269(8)|290(10)|311(3)|333(7)|350(7)|375(14)|396(6)|429(5)|444(11)|462(6)|482(3)|507(1)|530(4)|551(6)|567(7)|586(4)|603(8)|620(6)|639(7)|667(11)|682(4)|694(7)|707(1)|720(6)|737(10)|752(10) 0 https://youtu.be/1tl61GPF5Zw YouTube video English 22 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mr. Jesse Champion, Sr. for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Jesse Champion, Sr. is introduced Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Champion, Sr., Jesse ; Miles College African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Oral history interview 33.4810, -86.9089 17 Miles College 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 40 Family Background I would like to start by asking you some general questions about your family background. Champion states that he was raised in Dolomite, a community in the Birmingham area, along with seven other siblings. His father lost his eyesight as a result of working in the mines, and his mother had difficulties trying to raise the large family ; his mother's first cousin offered to raise Champion, and then took him into her home. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Dolomite (Ala.) ; Jefferson County (Ala.) African American families 277 The Smithfield Community During the Depression Can you tell me what community you grew up in? Champion describes the Smithfield community in Birmingham during the Great Depression. Food stamps--Law and legislation ; Smithfield ; United States. Works Progress Administration Great Depression 372 Elementary &amp ; High School Experience You started school at Graymont? Champion describes the education he received at Graymont and Parker High School, which included learning trade skills along with academics. He explains that he lived at the Woodward Iron Company's housing. Birmingham Public Schools (Birmingham, Ala.) Graymont Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 556 Music Background &amp ; Fess Whatley And after that, I went to the band and would play in the band as well. Champion explains how he became a musician and emphasizes the values of precision and punctuality that director and famous musician J.T. &quot ; Fess&quot ; Whatley instilled into all his students. African American band directors ; African American music teachers ; Whatley, J. T. A.H. Parker High School Band ; Whatley, Fess (Musician) 775 Police in Smithfield Living in Smithfield at the time, teenage young man growing up in Smithfield, what was it like? Champion talks about how police in Smithfield would enforce a curfew for young, teenage men to keep them out of trouble. African American teenage boys ; Police-community relations Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Smithfield (Ala.) 846 Naval Service &amp ; Higher Education After you finished high school at Parker, what did you do? Champion states that after graduating from Parker, he joined the U.S. Navy and traveled to California. After a year and six months, he returned to the South to study at Morehouse College. He then transferred to Alabama A&amp ; M to study English, and then pursued a post-secondary degree from the University of Notre Dame. He taught at Carver High School, then after graduating from Notre Dame, he taught at Council School in Ensley, Alabama as a social studies teacher and band director. African American band directors ; Alabama A &amp ; M University ; Carver High School (Gadsden, Ala.) ; Council School (Ensley, Ala.) ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; Sailor ; Social studies for schools and colleges ; United States. Navy--African Americans ; University of Notre Dame African American teachers ; Graduate School studies ; Undergraduate ; United States. Navy 1128 Arrest &amp ; Trial After four years, I had a run-in with &quot ; the men in blue&quot ; Champion talks about the time of his arrest in 1963. He saw a student of his in the back of a white man's car, having been accused of stealing. When Champion went to assist, the student ran and the police arrived with instructions from Bull Connor to arrest Champion. Champion went to trial and was convicted of inciting a riot. After being forced to resign from his job, Champion moved to Flint, Michigan to teach at Southwestern High School. Connor, Bull ; Flint (Mich.) ; Southwestern High School (Flint, Mich.) Arrest--United States ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 1429 Description &amp ; Reflections on the Demonstrations Prior to going to Michigan, did you ever participate in any of the activities that were going on in Birmingham? Champion details his involvements in the Demonstrations and mass meetings and reflects on why he participated as well how non-violence in the Movement contributed to the resulting changes in society. Mass meetings ; Nonviolence ; Reflections on practice ; Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama 1683 &quot ; The First Black News Reporter&quot ; &amp ; Birmingham Radio What was it like being the first Black news reporter? Champion describes how he returned to Birmingham in 1970 and became a news reporter for WBRC radio, the only Black reporter working for the station at the time. He talks about his experiences of speaking to all-white audiences, and even interviewing Klan member, Don Black. Black, Don ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; WBRC (Radio station : Birmingham, Ala.) African American radio broadcasters ; News radio stations 1984 Changes in Birmingham &amp ; the Mindsets in the Black Community Tell me, how then do you view the changes over time in Birmingham from when you first came back to teach at Council to the present. Champion reflects on the changes in Birmingham for the Black community improved significantly, especially for social mobility. He expresses his personal observations that there is currently a societal complacency due to this progress, and he emphasizes the importance of maintaining cultural identity in the midst of integration. African Americans--Housing ; Cultural assimilation ; Social change African Americans--Race identity ; Social structure and social change 2263 Conclusion of the Interview Mr. Champion, I want to thank you for coming in and taking your time and sitting with us today and I appreciate it very much. Conclusion of the Interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history interview Oral History Jessie Champion Sr. discusses leaving Birmingham after being wrongly convicted of inciting a riot. He became the first Black news reporter for WBRC after returning to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mr. Jesse Champion, Sr. for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley and we are at Miles College. Today is November 1, 1995. Thank you Mr. Champion for taking time out of your busy schedule to sit with us today. CHAMPION: It&#039 ; s my pleasure. HUNTLEY: I would like to start by asking you some general questions about your family background. Were your parents from Alabama? CHAMPION: For the most part, my mother came from Georgia and my father is an Alabamian and I was reared in Alabama, so to speak. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Birmingham, Alabama? CHAMPION: I was born in Dolomite, which is now a part of Birmingham. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sister did you have? CHAMPION: There were four boys and four girls. HUNTLEY: And where did you fit in all of that? CHAMPION: Well, I was the third boy ; out of the eight, I must have been the fifth. HUNTLEY: So, you must have been right in the middle? CHAMPION: Right in the middle, correct. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your parent&#039 ; s education. CHAMPION: My parents had little education. My mother stopped school early because, she had to work in the fields with her parents. She stopped at about the fifth grade and my father was about the same. So, that is as far as they got with an education, they never pursued any farther than what they had accomplished to that point. HUNTLEY: Well, that was not unusual at that time. CHAMPION: No, that was not unusual. It was one of those things where people had to work to survive and that came first. You went to school later if you had time or the family could fit you into the program. HUNTLEY: Absolutely. What about the occupations of your parents? Did your mother work outside the home? CHAMPION: My mother did the domestic type work. She washed and ironed for the physician that delivered me and other Whites in the community. We lived in the mining camp in Dolomite and my father worked in the mines at Woodward, in the same area. HUNTLEY: So, you then would have been a rather stable family at this time, your father working, y ourmother at home and working. You had a large family, of course. CHAMPION: Yes. We had a large family and she was working, because it was out of necessity that he worked. As I recall, the house that I remember when I was very small, had no more than three rooms and everybody had to do whatever in order to keep things going. HUNTLEY: And you lived in Dolomite? CHAMPION: I lived in Dolomite until I was nine months of age. That is the time when my father lost his eyesight in the mines and after that my mother could not shoulder all the responsibilities. She had two first cousins who did not have any children and they came out, and she said mother said, &quot ; Well, you can help me to bring him up, but I will not let you adopt him.&quot ; And the samething happened to two of my sisters...this was three sisters and neither had children so, this is how we got separated from the others in the family one to leave home at the age of nine months. HUNTLEY: So, you then lived with your aunt? CHAMPION: It was my mother&#039 ; s first cousin. But I was the first. HUNTLEY: First cousin. Oh, I see. CHAMPION: Two sisters children, they were. HUNTLEY: And where did the other children go? CHAMPION: One went to Lynch, Kentucky and the other went to Baxter, West Virginia, but I went to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Did you see each other periodically? CHAMPION: Yes. We would see each other at Christmas time and some of the other times, when we as Blacks would normally take as vacations and visit relatives. They tried to keep us as close as possible so that we would know exactly who our parents were. They told me at an early age, who my parents were and I would make visits out to Dolomite on weekends, when I did not have to go to school. I would ride what was then, known as Summers&#039 ; Busline. After riding the transit system, the trolley cars, which was what we had in Birmingham and I would go on into Fairfield then, I would catch the bus and go on into Dolomite to see my father. HUNTLEY: So, there were five children left at home with your mother. CHAMPION: Yes. Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me what community you grew-up in? CHAMPION: I lived in the Smithfield community. HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what it was like, growing up in Smithfield? CHAMPION: It was very rugged, because the roads were unpaved and in front of my house there was a ditch. And now, the streets have been paved and the ditch is covered, but no sidewalks or anything like that. That&#039 ; s the time when everybody would go bare footed in the summer months and put their shoes on if they were going to church. You did not dare wear them every day of the week. It was a kind of rough life, because at that time, we had the WPA, and we had food stamps that helped us to survive...and that&#039 ; s when I really realized what food stamps were all about. Because, we would get those commodities that had written on them, &quot ; NOT TO BE SOLD&quot ; . And even some of the clothing we had to wear... my mother... in as much as I was living what they would call, &quot ; In town&quot ; , she would take the clothing that my other brothers would get and give me the ones that did not have the &quot ; NOT TO BE SOLD&quot ; written on them. They would have the &quot ; NOT TO BE SOLD&quot ; written across the front of the overalls. But she gave me some of the jeans as we call them today. And that&#039 ; s what I would wear, as to not expose and let everybody know that we were one of those in need of such services. HUNTLEY: Right. Now, this is during the depression? CHAMPION: Yes. That was during the depression. HUNTLEY: So then, that was not unusual to see people with that.... CHAMPION: Oh no, that was not unusual. Those were the days of the Broganes and everybody wore them in order to have so meeting that would last a long time and that would keep your feet warm, because we had real snows, then. And it was nothing unusual, at all. HUNTLEY: You started school at Graymont? CHAMPION: Graymont Elementary School. They had a Graymont, which was for Whites, the one that&#039 ; s not in use, right now. And then we had the Graymont, which is now, Hill School and that&#039 ; s where I got my elementary education. HUNTLEY: Tell me. What do you remember about Graymont, which is presently Hill School? CHAMPION: Well, it was one of those where we did not have all the facilities like the y had at the White schools. We had the &quot ; outdoor toilets&quot ; and the boys would have to go outside and get coal for the potbellied heaters for the classrooms. And the floors had to be oiled, not waxed. Sometimes if you wanted to get out of class you would ask a teacher to let you go out to help mop the floors putting that oil in them...it was something of an experience. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your teachers? CHAMPION: My teachers, I remember quite well, because they were quite serious about what was going on, as far as trying to get an education over to you and letting you know the importance of the same. We had home economics for the girls and manual training for the boys. Then, we had one room where you learned how to sew some of the items like pants and you made a suit by the time you graduated and l learned some shoe repairing ... it was quite an experience learning more than what they are allowing teachers to teach now in elementary schools. HUNTLEY: So along with academics, you had a trade? CHAMPION: Yes. HUNTLEY: You mentioned, your father lost his sight when you were a very young child. Did he remain at home? CHAMPION: Yes. He did remain at home. And he did something that was illegal and everybody who knows him and we get into a conversation about it I tell them, &quot ; Yes, my daddy sold booze&quot ; . Because he was blind, the county officers let him know that it was okay as long as it didn&#039 ; t go too far. They would let him know when they were going to come around to inspect to find out who was running a &quot ; shot house&quot ; so to speak and that&#039 ; s how he brought in extra moneyselling booze, cigarettes, candy, and peanuts to assist my mother with what she was able to bring in. And that&#039 ; s why we also, left where I was born and moved into what they called,&quot ; a boarding house&quot ; which was furnished by Woodward Iron Company for people that were not able to buy their own homes or to pay rent, so to speak. HUNTLEY: It was a part of the company&#039 ; s housing. Is that right? CHAMPION: Yes. Yes. HUNTLEY: Woodward had company housing on the northside of Jones Valley as well as on the southside of Jones Valley and you lived on the northside. Is that right? CHAMPION: Right. HUNTLEY: When you finished school at Graymont, where did you go? CHAMPION: From there, I when to Parker High School. HUNTLEY: Parker High School. Parker High School is of course, very well noted. CHAMPION: Yes. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Parker High School? CHAMPION: The thing I remember most was going out for the football team when I really didn&#039 ; t weigh enough, but I wanted to keep up with the gang. HUNTLEY: How much were you weighing at the time? CHAMPION: I was weighing about 125 pounds. And that was a bit lite for me to be wanting to play on the line, but I did make the team and that&#039 ; s where I played during football season. And after that, I went to the band and would play in the band, as well. HUNTLEY: And you became quite an accomplished musician. CHAMPION: Yes. That&#039 ; s where I got my start, as far as being a musician. Working under Fess Whatley, he taught me the ropes and I ended up working with him in his first orchestra. And I learned how to value the dollar and how to not let it go as fast as you would normally without having someone giving you the guidelines you&#039 ; d need. HUNTLEY: Fess Whatley is very well known, internationally. CHAMPION: Yes, he is well known all over the U.S. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about Fess Whatley. What was it like being a protege of Fess Whatley? CHAMPION: Well, Fess Whatley was a man who look ed out for everybody, be they male or female. He would let the boys know that there is a time when you don&#039 ; t put your hands on the girls-- you go up to your classes where you are suppose to be going and don&#039 ; t play around. There are certain things you don&#039 ; t do and you give them the utmost respect. And I believed that&#039 ; s something everybody remembered. And the girls would respect you, also because of that. He also taught everybody how to be thrifty, you know, working with your hands. Not to be the regular run of the mill type of individual. Punctuality as well. I am reminded of that sometimes, now by J.L. Lowe. He says, &quot ; You came along during the Fess Whatley era, you like to be on time or before time so you will not be classified as one who comes late&quot ; . HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s important. CHAMPION: Yes. Very definitely. HUNTLEY: What was your instrument? CHAMPION: Clarinet and drums. HUNTLEY: Was Fess one who was a stickler for time and for precision in terms of development... I remember when I grew up, Parker&#039 ; s band was always meticulously dressed and they had all kinds of precision and of course, this was after Fess Whatley&#039 ; s time. I was wondering did he set the foundation for Parker, and know what it would eventually become? CHAMPION: Well, he reminded everybody that they were supposed to be in uniform at all times, because we had uniforms, then. And along with the uniforms came your personality as to what you were suppose to be about and how you were supposed to carry yourself. And he was that man that was concerned about everything being as it should be. I remember we would have band practice in the room above the printing shop. And if someone made a bad note, he could come right upstairs and go to that individual who made it without being told. He have that kind of sensitive ear, as far as music goes. HUNTLEY: You said the band room was above the printing shop? CHAMPION: Yes, it was above the printing shop in the Boys Building, as they called it. HUNTLEY: And he would be in the printing shop? CHAMPION: Yes. Yes. HUNTLEY: Was he the instructor of printing? CHAMPION: He was the instructor of printing, yes. HUNTLEY: Did you take that class? CHAMPION: No, I didn&#039 ; t. I didn&#039 ; t take printing. I took tailoring under Melvin Caswell at that time. HUNTLEY: Would Fess Whatley be one of those individuals that would be a role model for you? CHAMPION: Very definitely , I would think so. HUNTLEY: Were there others you would remember that were teachers at Parker at the time that stand out in your mind? CHAMPION: Gus Ward and Melvin Caswell ; I remember those quite vividly, because I worked with Me lvi n Caswell as a musician and Gus Ward was one who would take care of the finances for the school. He would take money to the bank and I had classes in the carpentry shop there and I learned quite a bit from him, as far as mannerisms and what you should be about as a male student. HUNTLEY: Living in Smithfield at the time, teenage young man growing up in Smithfield, what was it like? CHAMPION: It was like I think we need it to be, now. There was a certain time we got off the streets without having a curfew. Everybody was somewhat fearful of the policemen. Whenever they would come by and see you standing on comers, they would tell you, &quot ; Okay, it&#039 ; s time to go home&quot ; . And they did not have to tell you but one time, the next time they came by you would have started moving before they had a chance to tell you anything. Because nine times out of ten you were just there, not necessarily waiting to rob or steal or anything like that. But, you knew you were suppose to be at home and not hanging on the comers. We would not have as much crime as we do, now because of these things. HUNTLEY: Was the police looked at by your community as one to be there to protect and serve? CHAMPION: I would think so. To protect and serve and they were fearful of what would happen to them if they were not going down the right paths. As far as right and wrong was concern. HUNTLEY: Were there ever any situations in the neighborhood where the police became an adversary to the community? CHAMPION: I don&#039 ; t recall there being such. HUNTLEY: After you finished high school at Parker , what did you do? CHAMPION: After finishing Parker, I went to Morehouse. Like some of the people are still doing today, wherever your friends go ; that&#039 ; s where you want to go. And you try to go there. So, the money that I had from having served in the US Navy. I was working with a friend of mine from Ensley, Valentine who was a musician. I played a few gigs with him to make extra money. But when my money ran out, I had gone on the road with an orchestra. And I heard about scholarships being offered at Alabama A &amp ; M University. It was Alabama A &amp ; M College at the time. So, I came home and I was luck y enough to get a scholarship and I went from Morehouse to Alabama A &amp ; M where I graduated. HUNTLEY: So, you went to Morehouse on the GI Bill? CHAMPION: No, it wasn&#039 ; t the GI Bill. I paid my way. HUNTLEY: Okay. But you had gone to the Navy prior to going to Morehouse? CHAMPION: Yes. Prior to going to Morehouse. CHAMPION: Well, I thought it was something that I&#039 ; d wanted, because I volunteered. I knew I didn&#039 ; t like the Army and I had to volunteer for something. So, I knew I had to volunteer for the Air Force or the Navy and there again, a lot of my friend were volunteers for the Navy so I did, also. I had never been to California so, I was glad to get that long train ride to California that was quite exciting. And to get there and being so far away from home was also something new. HUNTLEY: Was this directly out of high school that you joined the Navy? CHAMPION: No. It was not directly out, it was during the summer months. HUNTLEY: What was that transition like then, from high school senior to a sailor? CHAMPION: It was quite interesting, but not as much as I had thought it would be. I felt I was missing something. That was some of the questions I was asked when they asked me, &quot ; What would I do if I got out of the Navy&quot ; . Because I left the Navy on the basis of having headaches that were so severe, I felt I couldn&#039 ; t handle everything I was suppose to be handling. So, they asked, &quot ; what would you do if we let you out&quot ; ? And I said, &quot ; Go to school&quot ; . And that&#039 ; s what I was aspiring at that time to get into somebody&#039 ; s college. HUNTLEY: So, how long did you spend in the Navy? CHAMPION: A year and six months. HUNTLEY: So then, off to Morehouse. CHAMPION: Yes. Off to Morehouse. HUNTLEY: After Morehouse, then your money gave out so, that&#039 ; s when you went to Alabama A&amp ; M on scholarship? CHAMPION: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did Alabama A&amp ; M have a band similar to the one at Alabama State? CHAMPION: It was just getting started back, because it had been years since they had a band. That was in 1947 when I got the scholarship that we started the band. We got new uniforms and everything that they did not have to pass on down to somebody else. So that was quite interesting and a new venture, as well. HUNTLEY: So, you graduated from Alabama A&amp ; M in 1950? CHAMPION: From A&amp ; M in 1950, yes. HUNTLEY: What did you do after graduation? CHAMPION: After graduation, I started working at Carver High School in Gadsden and after working there that first year, I started going to the University of Notre Dame working on grad courses during the summer months to further my career as an English instructor, since I majored in English at A&amp ; M. HUNTLEY: Alabama had a policy where going to graduate school, you could not go to graduate school at the University of Alabama. But, they had it situated where they would actually pay your tuition out of state. ls that how you went to Notre Dame? CHAMPION: No. I had no assistance from the State, per se. It was through the priest at the parish where I belonged. It was Immaculate Conception, better known to most people as Immaculata, the high school. And Father assisted me in getting a fellowship to The University of Notre Dame. That&#039 ; s how I was able to go there. HUNTLEY: How many summers did you go? CHAMPION: I went there two summers. HUNTLEY: Did you remain at Carver? CHAMPION: I remained at Carver four years until I finally got back home and I got a job here, in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: What did you do in Birmingham? CHAMPION: I started working at Council School in Ensley. HUNTLEY: What area were you, English? CHAMPION: No, it wasn&#039 ; t English. I couldn&#039 ; t get into my field. I got into an area where I had quite a bit of experience and they felt I could handle the job. I as a social studies teacher and band director. HUNTLEY: I see. How long were you there? CHAMPION: I was there for four years. HUNTLEY: What did you do after that four years? CHAMPION: After four years, I had a run-in with the &quot ; men in blue&quot ; . HUNTLEY: Will you tell me about that incident? CHAMPION: It was one afternoon in April 1963, during the demonstrations. I was going out to Holy Family Hospital, my oldest daughter had just been born and at the time they did not have televisions in the room, so I was taking a small television to my wife. And in the process, I saw one of my students in the back of a car that was driven by a White guy and his companion was White, as well. So they stopped at a telephone booth and they were calling the police, but I didn&#039 ; t know that at the time. I asked what was going on and they told me that they had one of my student and that he had been caught till-tapping at one of the five and dime stores in Ensley. HUNTLEY: What is till-tapping? CHAMPION: Till-tapping is when the cashier leaves the drawer open to the cash register and the person catches that person not on guard and puts his hand into the cash register and takes money. So happened, that he ran and they were about to make a citizen&#039 ; s arrest as they explained it to me. So, I said, &quot ; Since neither of you are policemen, will you let the kid out of the car&quot ; ? And they were reluctant to do so, so I pushed the seat toward the dashboard so the guy could get out of the backseat and he ran. That&#039 ; s what got everything started. And when the police did come, they had gotten instructions from Bull Conner to take me to jail, because he was going to teach me a lesson. And what he meant was teachers were not suppose to be apart of the Civil Rights Movement ; especially when it came down to demonstrations. HUNTLEY: So, he was teaching you a lesson for all the other teachers? CHAMPION: Yes. Yes. And he said I should have known better and my intelligence should have told me to stay out of it and not to have anything to do with it. HUNTLEY: Now, you were arrested, how long did you stay in jail? CHAMPION: I was incarcerated for just a number of hours. I will say about five or six hours when they let me out on my recognizance. Then I had to go to court after that and in the process, I did not win out of the trial, because they charged me with inciting to riot. Even though, the guy said I did not use any profanity and no blows were struck or anything along those lines. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the trial, the courtroom scene. What was that like, was it a jury trial? CHAMPION: It was not a jury trial, it was the decision of the judge. HUNTLEY: Did you testify in your defense? CHAMPION: I think I answered a few questions. Not like the testimony being given today. HUNTLEY: What were some of the questions that were asked of you? CHAMPION: They asked me what was I doing in the area and I told them I was out to see my wife and to take her a television in the hospital where she had just delivered our new-born child. And I told them that I was just trying to find out what was happening to a student of mine. And I did not aide in his get-away and I did not know if he was guilty or not guilty, but he ran and there was nothing I could do in light of catching him and I was not there to start a riot. HUNTLEY: Were the police asked questions, as well? CHAMPION: I don&#039 ; t recall, exactly. HUNTLEY: Were you found innocent or guilty of inciting to riot? CHAMPION: I was found guilty. HUNTLEY: And what did that mean? CHAMPION: That meant the superintendent of education was informed to instruct me to resign or be fired. I had to tum in a letter of resignation so it would not be on my record that I was fired from the Birmingham City School System. HUNTLEY: Now, you were a family man at that time, you had a new born child, a wife, and a family. CHAMPION: Yes. And a son that was ten years of age at the time. HUNTLEY: So, how did you manage to take care of your children and your family? CHAMPION: Well, all the Black principals rallied to the cause whereby they took up enough money from their instructors that kept me from being homeless -- took care of my house note and bought groceries. And the bills I had to pay, I had no problem with that because of the money that they had taken up from the teachers who were concerned about what had happened to me. HUNTLEY: And how long did that last? CHAMPION: It went on from April until I left in August and took a job in Michigan. HUNTLEY: So, as a result of your encounter with the police, you had to leave Birmingham? CHAMPION: Yes. I wanted to stay in the profession I was involved with at the time. So, I went to Detroit seeking a job there, because I had a sister in-law that lived there. And I was offered a job at Highland Park Junior College, but it so happened they were paying more money in Flint, Michigan. So, I went to Flint Southwestern where I got a job as an English teacher and a debate coach. HUNTLEY: This is Southwestern High School? CHAMPION: Yes. High School. HUNTLEY: Prior to going to Michigan, did you ever participate in any of the activities that were going on in Birmingham? CHAMPION: Yes, I would. I would go to some of the mass meetings they were having and any meeting whereby we found that some of our people were involved in the Civil Rights Movement and they needed support in a manner that would not cause anyone to suffer because of being involved. HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what a mass meeting was like? CHAMPION: It was like a church rally, so to speak, where everyone would listen to the main speaker. It was something to get the people all pepped up as to what we were all about and trying to get seats at the lunch counters and this kind of thing and letting them know what the movement was all about. And to remain non-violent in whatever their endeavors might be as far as following the instructions and the dictates of Martin Luther King. And those who were heading the Southern Christian Leadership Conference along with the Alabama Christian Movement. HUNTLEY: Right. Did you participate in demonstrations? Did you march? CHAMPION: Yes, I did. HUNTLEY: Tell me how. Just describe what it was like to be a part of the demonstrations. CHAMPION: It was a great feeling that came over me. knowing that I was doing something that could possibly help those that would have to come behind me. And those that were not getting involved, because somebody would reap the benefits of my involvement, I felt and that&#039 ; s why I even took a part of the March from Selma to Montgomery. And it was raining after we got there and we had to setup tents, this kind of thing is what I remember most vividly, because of the impact that it had on me and my life, so to speak. HUNTLEY: The demonstration that you took part in 1963, was that after you had resigned from your position as teacher at Council School? CHAMPION: Yes. Yes. HUNTLEY: And did the example that was being set by using you did that have an impact upon other individuals that you knew that were teachers? CHAMPION: I think it did to some degree, they did not get involved to the extent that I became involved. But they were supporters of those that did become involved and they were relaying the message as to what it was all about, as far as the movement was concerned and what the benefits might be and we kept the fight going in a non-violent manner. HUNTLEY: If you had the opportunity, would you change anything that took place during that particular period of your life? CHAMPION: If I had the opportunity, would I do so, now? HUNTLEY: Yes. Would you do the same thing or would you not participate? CHAMPION: I would participate. Yes. I would. Because, I think there&#039 ; s a way one can go about it without having to be afraid of what might happen to him. At the time, l did not even think about my job being taken away from me or being pushed to the point where [ had to give it up. I was thinking of the end result of the movement was all about. And that&#039 ; s what I would do if! had the opportunity to do so again. Because we need the great wakening of letting everybody know what we should be all about and some of the things we should do for ourselves, instead of waiting for somebody else to do it for us. HUNTLEY: When you left Birmingham and went to Michigan, how long were you there? CHAMPION: I was in Michigan from &#039 ; 63 until &#039 ; 70. HUNTLEY: And you returned to Birmingham at that time? CHAMPION: Yes. I returned to Birmingham to live in &#039 ; 70, but I came back during the year &#039 ; 69. That&#039 ; s when I applied for a job at WBRC. At the time we had no Black news reporters or Black announcers at what we called, &quot ; White radio stations&quot ; . It was in December when I applied at the urging of the NAACP. And I was told they did not have any openings and they didn&#039 ; t look forward to having any in the near future. So, I told them, &quot ; Thank you very much&quot ; . And I still have that letter where they wrote me in January saying where they did find there was an opening at WBRC, which is now, WERC radio and asked me if l would reconsider. So, I did and came back in February 1970 and took the job there as a news reporter. HUNTLEY: What was that like being the first Black news reporter? CHAMPION: It was like being what we call, &quot ; the token&quot ; . The only other Black face was the custodian and we had a news team of three men and I was the only Black. And to showcase the fact that they had a Black, I was given a news car which was white and there was a Black guy driving it making City Council meetings and covering County Commission meeting s, fires, fights, or what have you. It was quite an experience. because I had the opportunity to be showcased again to the Birmingham Rotary Club or the Kiwanis, one of the two where I was the main speaker. And there I was the only Black speaking to this mass ive White audience and it was something to behold, because 1 had no idea I would be chosen for something like that, but I was happy to serve in that capacity, hoping that maybe l could serve as an example and help somebody else have as much get up and go about themselves as I had to go ahead and reach such heights. HUNTLEY: What was your relationship with other Black radio personalities at the time who were on Black radio stations? CHAMPION: The relationship was about the same, because I started out in radio, in 1953 at WJLD and I was remembered from that and having been a musician working around the city with an orchestraI stayed in close contact with most of the guys and I knew them personally. So, they were telling me that they were glad to see me move into, possibly opening doors for someone else. Because there was only one other at the time, along with myself he was hired in &#039 ; 69 and I was hired in &#039 ; 70. HUNTLEY: Were there any racial encounters that you remember in those first days when you worked with WBRC? CHAMPION: No, I don&#039 ; t recall that I had any. Only with Shelton down in Tuscaloosa when we had a news conference and I was assigned to go and cover it. HUNTLEY: And Shelton is? CHAMPION: He was Czar with the Klan. And he told Davenport Smith, who was our news director that whatever you do, don&#039 ; t send that Nigger down here. Because word had gotten out that they had a Black news reporter. Everything else had worked out smoothly, because l had been seen enough times for them to know I was a native of Birmingham and I did not have any trouble out of anyone. HUNTLEY: What was the encounter like with Shelton? CHAMPION: I didn&#039 ; t get a chance to go down. HUNTLEY: You didn&#039 ; t? CHAMPION: No. They wouldn&#039 ; t send me. HUNTLEY: That would have been interesting. CHAMPION: Yes, that would have been quite an experience, but I did have the opportunity to do some interviews with Don Black who was also with the Klan. He is no longer in the city, but I had a chance to cover some of his rallies out of the Brighton area and all the Blacks out there who saw me wondered why I was getting so close to this guy duringan interview and I had had him on my talk show. At that time, we had talk shows, but I would record them earlier and play them back on Sunday. So, that was quite an experience and I kept it going and I think I had his respect. I got a chance to get inside on some things that were going on and find out about their philosophy and way of life. HUNTLEY: How did those initial contacts come about, how did you make them and how receptive were they of a Black man coming to interview them? CHAMPION: Well I think they were quite receptive, because of the fact that I told them that it would be something of an interview with not just him by himself, but I had Reverend Pettigrew, who was just coming into the city at the time and it was one of those deals where they could ask each other questions that made it quite interesting for both parties as well as the listening audience. HUNTLEY: Are those interviews still around, do you have them? CHAMPION: I doubt that they are because, they would tape them and after a certain period of time, they would bolt the tape and it&#039 ; s all gone. HUNTLEY: So,you then were around during the period when Richard Arrington became city councilperson as well as when he became mayor, of course? CHAMPION: Yes I was. HUNTLEY: What was that like working in a White establishment and appear that Blacks now, in quote, are taking over the city, did that have any impact upon what was happening on your particular job? CHAMPION: If it didthe personnel at the station didn&#039 ; t make it known or they didn&#039 ; t make any change as far as to how they would carry themselves in my presence. HUNTLEY: Tell me, how then do you view the changes over time in Birmingham from when you first came back to teach at Council to the present. How do you view those changes and if the changes are significant, how significant are they? CHAMPION: I think they are quite significant, because they opened doors that would not have been opened, otherwise and many have reached certain heights that they would not have attained had it not been for the movement. But it also had some effect on the progress that could have been made, because people are becoming complacent. I have found an air of complacency in many areas where people had made certain advancements asfar as buying homes and moving out in to other areas where they couldn&#039 ; t move to beforehand. And things that they had acquired, &quot ; went to their heads&quot ; , and they forgot there was still some work to be done and there were other people that needed their assistance and some of that is still being felt, today. Many people say they don&#039 ; t want to get involved. That&#039 ; s the cliche&#039 ; we hear so many times and to some degree that has hurt us more than it helped us....integration, I&#039 ; m referring to. Because many people became complacent when they didn&#039 ; t have to and they have forgotten that we are still Black and we will remain Black and there are certain instances that occur that reminds us of that we are still Black. And we have forgotten to keep that in mind and try to direct ourselves along those paths that we know who we are and we must still have to make progress as much as possible and look out for the people who are behind us, coming on after us. HUNTLEY: How could integration be made to be different, the transition from a segregated society to an integrated society? How could that transition have been made different? CHAMPION: If we had remembered our identity and conducted ourselves, thus ly, because if we loo k very closely and if you do some of the things I did while working outside of the south, you could see where the people are friendly to a degree. They let you know how they feel and they conduct themselves in a different manner when they leave the work place and they will invite you to so many of their affairs where normally there&#039 ; s all White, you&#039 ; ll still find the tokens existing. And once we realize this is what&#039 ; s happening and start doing something about it, then we can&#039 ; t say we are one of those who might be classified as one of complacency. HUNTLEY: Are you suggesting that we&#039 ; ve developed such institutions then, with integration, we have become a part of other peoples&#039 ; institutions? CHAMPION: Yes, we forget who we are, where we are, and what we are all about. HUNTLEY: So, then, that suggests that Black folk, basically were in favor of integrating, but the White society was really not accepting of integration on an equal basis? CHAMPION: Correct. They were forced to accept it, they did not do it from their hearts and it shows. If one is quite concerned about where he is and what is going on around him, he can see it and feel it, because the real warmth isn&#039 ; t there. It&#039 ; s a cover up in other places more so than in the South, because you would know more readily in the south than anyone would in so me of the Northern, Eastern, and Western areas. HUNTLEY: Where race relations or the movements&#039 ; concern, are there any areas we have not touched base on that you would like to talk about? Anything that we have not covered that will be revealing to our audience in relationship to your own personal encounters in being a citizen of Birmingham. CHAMPION: Well, I think everyone should take inventory and realize that we are Black and look at what happens everyday when you go to the workplace, and you come right back home where our people are and you should do something about where you are and help that community to become what you want it to be and not move away from where the people are that you came along with even though, they have not reached a certain plateau with you it is something we can still do ourselves and not wait for somebody to do it for us or expect somebody to do it for us. And then, blame it on somebody else when we don&#039 ; t succeed in whatever our goals might be. There&#039 ; s a whole lot of work that we can still do ourselves. HUNTLEY: Mr. Champion, I want to thank you for coming and taking your time and sitting with us today and I appreciate it very much. CHAMPION: I am glad to have done so. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JChampion1995.xml JChampion1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jesse Champion Sr. Description An account of the resource Jessie Champion Sr. discusses leaving Birmingham after being wrongly convicted of inciting a riot. He became the first Black news reporter for WBRC after returning to Birmingham. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19951101C Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham A.H. Parker High School Band Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-11-01 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/c0dc3e0da7e183d4deb68b600ce6921c.jpg 4398bc4e1493f6eb7a515ed105df597c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jessie Shepherd OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JShepherd1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Fair Park (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 March 16, 1995 Jessie Shepherd Interviewed on March 16, 1995 19950316S 0:27:30 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Raines Whittaker Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Fair Park (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Jessie Shepherd Horace Huntley Video 1:|5(6)|31(2)|52(11)|79(2)|106(2)|121(22)|138(17)|159(9)|179(2)|196(1)|216(1)|244(3)|258(4)|269(12)|289(5)|311(10)|329(14)|349(1)|372(8)|392(11)|404(10)|427(9)|440(6)|453(6)|468(15)|486(11)|519(4) 0 https://youtu.be/0mZ_oObTsYg YouTube video English 45 Beginning of Interview This is an interview with Ms. Jessie Shepherd for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute http://www.bcri.org BCRI website 67 Family Background I just want to start by just asking some basic foundation questions about your parents. Shepherd was born and raised in Birmingham in a large, working-class family. African American families ; Birmingham (Ala.) 163 Education What about your education? Shepherd attended elementary and high school in Birmingham. Calloway Elementary ; Carver High School ; Hudson Elementary Birmingham (Ala.) 198 Community Composition How would you describe the community that you lived in when you were in high school? Shepherd grew up in an all-Black community with little access to parks or recreation. Parks and Recreation African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.) 316 Police-Community Relations Tell me about the relationship, if you remember, what was the relationship between your community and the Birmingham Police Department? In Shepherd's community, most interactions with the police were based around harassment. African American neighborhoods ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Police-community relations 366 Civil Rights Involvement in High School The Civil Rights Movement of course, when we talk about civil rights in Birmingham... At 15 years old, Shepherd became involved in the civil rights movement. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; High school students--Political activity 515 Reactions to Involvement in the Movement What did your parents say about that? Shepherd received passive support from her parents and teachers after becoming involved in the civil rights movement, which she joined after recognizing racial injustice around her. African Americans--Segregation ; High school students--Political activity 760 The Children's Crusade Let me ask you the day that you were encouraged by those individuals from the Alabama Christian Movement and SCLC... The high school students met at the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church to get organized for marches. Children's March ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 863 Attacked by Police/Firefighters with Water Hoses What did you see when you first came out of the church? Shortly after starting a march, Shepherd and others were attacked by police and firefighters with water hoses. Kelly Ingram Park Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Police brutality 995 Arrest and Imprisonment Then were you arrested? Shepherd was arrested and held for four days at the Birmingham fairgrounds. Fair Park (Birmingham, Ala.) Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Civil rights movement ; High school students--Political activity 1100 Feelings about the Arrest from Family Did others in your family participate? Following Shepherd's arrest, her family was distressed but remained supportive. Family Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama 1156 Church Membership What church were you a member of at the time? Shepherd remained a member of the church despite their lack of civil rights involvement. Christian Valley Church African American churches ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1187 Views on Successes of the Civil Rights Movement What do you think were the benefits of you being involved in the Movement? Shepherd perceives the movement to have been successful in improving opportunities for equality. Civil rights movement ; Race relations--Economic aspects ; Racism--United States 1278 Continuation of Education What did you do after you finished high school? After high school, Shepherd received her GED, attended college, and became a clinical diet technician in nutrition. Nutrition Continuing education ; GED tests 1342 Continued Police Harassment Are there any other incidents that we have not talked about that come to mind that would relate to your involvement with the Movement? Shepherd recalls an incident in the 1970s of police harassment similar to those during the Movement. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement ; Police-community relations 1403 Reflections on the Movement Where do you think we are today in regards to the Movement? Shepherd continues to see the importance of activism today and supports involvement therein. African Americans--Civil rights ; Civil rights in a new era ; Racism--United States--Psychological aspects 1557 Emotional Weight of Memory You have not visited the Institute? Shepherd has been reluctant to revisit aspects of the civil rights movement. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil rights movement ; Racism--United States--Psychological aspects 1601 Conclusion of Interview I want to thank you for the time that we've spent today because you've been very helpful in helping us to piece together this story of Birmingham. Interview concludes. Oral History Jessie Shepherd discusses participating in the Children's Crusade and being arrested at the demonstration. She went on to become a dietitian after going to school at Lawson State and UAB. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Jessie Shepherd for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College. Today is March 16, 1995. Ms. Shepherd, thank you for coming and taking time out of your schedule today to sit and talk with us about Birmingham and the Civil Rights Movement. SHEPHERD: You&#039 ; re welcome. I&#039 ; m glad to be here. HUNTLEY: I just want to start by just asking some basic foundation questions about your parents. Where are your parents from? What part of the state? Were they born here in Birmingham? SHEPHERD: No. My mother was born in Sumter County and my father was born in Macon County. But later on in life they moved to Birmingham, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Birmingham? SHEPHERD: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? SHEPHERD: It was nine of us. Three boys and six girls. HUNTLEY: How many of those were older and how many were younger than you? SHEPHERD: I have two younger sisters and one younger brother, and the rest are older than I am. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your parents&#039 ; education. How much education did both of them have? SHEPHERD: Well, not very much. My mother went to the fifth grade because she mostly said they had to work in the field at that particular time. And, my father, I think she said he went to about the third or fourth grade. HUNTLEY: Yes, in the black belt counties that was probably about the norm for Black people during those times. SHEPHERD: Yes. HUNTLEY: What about occupations? What kind of work did your mother and your father do? SHEPHERD: Well, my mother always did domestic work and my father, he did laboring work and he was a welder at the surrounding plants here in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: What about your education? Where did you go to elementary and high school and on from there? SHEPHERD: I went to Hudson Elementary school and after about the third or fourth grade they built Calloway Elementary school and I graduated from that school. Afterwards I went to Carver High School in North Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Who was the principal when you were there? SHEPHERD: Mr. Lowe. HUNTLEY: Mr. J. L. Lowe. What community was that? SHEPHERD: North Birmingham, Collegeville. HUNTLEY: How would you describe the community that you lived in when you were in high school? For example, the racial make-up, the occupations of people there, the recreation, how would you describe it? SHEPHERD: Well, lower to middle class. And, as far as the racial make-up, we didn&#039 ; t have any, unless it was the White man at the corner store, everybody was predominantly Black. HUNTLEY: It was an all-Black community? SHEPHERD: Right. HUNTLEY: Were there any areas near you where White people actually lived or did they live further back in Norwood? SHEPHERD: Norwood and the better section of North Birmingham was the White people area at that particular time. HUNTLEY: So, there were no White families living, say on the next street from you? SHEPHERD: No. No. We lived close around to U.S. Pipe, the plants with all the smoke and the soot and stuff, so they were a little further away from all of that. HUNTLEY: Yes. What kind of recreation did you have in your community? SHEPHERD: Not any at all. We played in the yard, hopscotch. We did our lesson. We really didn&#039 ; t have any place to go. Church was a very important part of our lives. We had things that we would do at church like choir rehearsal, play games or they would have Easter celebration for the kids. But other than that, we played with each other. HUNTLEY: So, most of your recreational activities then were either in the church or at school? SHEPHERD: Yes. HUNTLEY: What about parks? SHEPHERD: Parks? HUNTLEY: Did you have any parks? SHEPHERD: Parks were almost non-existent. We had like Macklin Park that was in Collegeville. We did have that one particular park that was available to us. And, I remember as a little girl, they had a park down by the city jail, but we didn&#039 ; t have transportation. There wasn&#039 ; t a car in our family. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the relationship, if you remember, what was the relationship between your community and the Birmingham Police Department? SHEPHERD: Well, the police department wasn&#039 ; t very active in our community. You would see the cars go by and if there was some young men on the corner they may slow down and talk with them and find out what they were up to. But, as far as my relationship with them, I didn&#039 ; t really have any. HUNTLEY: There was really no ongoing relationship with the community? Did you look at the police as being there in the community to protect and serve that community? SHEPHERD: In a way I did and in a way I looked at it as a way of keeping us in line. HUNTLEY: The Civil Rights Movement of course, when we talk about civil rights in Birmingham, we normally start with the Alabama Christian Movement of Human Rights in 1956 with the development of the various meeting formats that they had at the various churches. I know at that time you were a very young child so you would have probably known nothing about that. But when did you get involved in the movement itself? SHEPHERD: I was 15 and I was still in high school and that&#039 ; s when I got involved, when it came to my school. HUNTLEY: At Carver? SHEPHERD: Carver High School. HUNTLEY: And how did that happen that you would get involved at that point? What took place to get you involved? Had you been to any mass meetings before you got involved? SHEPHERD: No. I had not. The only experience I had was the day that they came to my school and there were different leaders that were talking, and they were telling us what they had planned to do for us, marching and what have you. And, we listened to the speakers and just from listening to them, I decided that I would march. HUNTLEY: Were they in an assembly in the school? SHEPHERD: No. Definitely not. They were across the street from the school grounds because they weren&#039 ; t allowed on the premises. And, we were told not to go off the premises. HUNTLEY: So how did you get the opportunity to hear them speak if you were not allowed to go off the premises? SHEPHERD: Because they were across the street from the school and we went to the edge of the school ground and we listened. And, after their delivery, well, it motivated me to just go with them. HUNTLEY: How many kids did it motivate to participate at that point? SHEPHERD: It was quite a few. I don&#039 ; t remember exactly how many but it was quite a few. HUNTLEY: Now, this is in May of 1963 during the demonstrations, right? SHEPHERD: Right. HUNTLEY: At that point, the Movement was really sort of at a lull because it didn&#039 ; t have a lot of people that were staunchly involved. You had a lot of people that were involved, but many of those were older people and they were fearful of their jobs and their homes. So, the idea was to get children involved. What did your parents say about that? SHEPHERD: Well, like you say it was something that was already talked about so my parents were aware that they were going to try and recruit the younger children to march and they had told me beforehand not to get involved. And, I did anyway. HUNTLEY: Well, was that a difficult decision for you to make, to go against what your parents were saying to you? SHEPHERD: It was, because usually I obeyed them. But like I said, after listening to the speeches that the leaders were making and after soul searching and thinking about my experiences and the experiences of my parents and other people in the neighborhood, I just decided that now it&#039 ; s time for a change and I wanted to be involved in it. HUNTLEY: What did they say to encourage you to get involved? SHEPHERD: Well, they were telling us about the things that had been going on all along. You weren&#039 ; t allowed to sit here, you weren&#039 ; t allowed to eat here, we need better jobs, we need to be treated better, and now is the time to do it. And, things like that. And all of the things that they were talking about I knew to be for a fact because I had seen some of these things happening and I&#039 ; ve seen people that are not making enough money, not being able to go here. Take for instance, my mother and my grandmother, they always did domestic work and some of the same people that they work for may have had the cafeteria and they could feed the other people, but when they would get tired, they could not go up front and sit down and eat a sandwich. They had to stand up in the back and eat. And, if they wanted water, go out back and get some water. You know, all those things to me were oppressive to Black people and I was old enough to know about them. HUNTLEY: So, you thought it was time for a change? SHEPHERD: I did. HUNTLEY: Well, why didn&#039 ; t you say &quot ; Well, let someone else do that, I would stay in school and get my education&quot ; , rather than being out on the front line? Why didn&#039 ; t you take that position? SHEPHERD: Well, at the time I&#039 ; ll admit I was afraid. I was very scared. But, I was also thinking about if everybody said that, they wouldn&#039 ; t have enough people to follow them. So, I was just willing to take the consequences. HUNTLEY: What did your teachers say before you got involved? Did they instruct you not to get involved or to get involved? Or, were they simply neutral? SHEPHERD: No. We had assembly in school, and, like my parents, they knew what was going on also, so they warned us beforehand not to become involved because if we did we would be expelled. HUNTLEY: So, they did not encourage you to get involved? SHEPHERD: No. They did not. HUNTLEY: In fact, they suggested that you not get involved so that you would not be expelled from school? SHEPHERD: Right. HUNTLEY: Were there any teachers that encouraged you? SHEPHERD: No. HUNTLEY: So, most were in fact looking out for you in the sense that they didn&#039 ; t want you to get expelled from school? SHEPHERD: Exactly. And then I think that they probably thought that if we left off the school and they didn&#039 ; t try to tell us their version of what they thought we should do, that they may be held liable for us leaving the premises if something happened to us and we got hurt or whatever. HUNTLEY: I&#039 ; m going to skip a part of this and return to that, but I want to ask you what was the reception when you returned to school? I know that you spent time in jail, but what were the reactions of the other children in school and your teachers when you returned to school? SHEPHERD: Well, I think that we were treated a little bit differently. Kind of like, not, in a way where they would kind of put us down from going to jail, but like they were somewhat proud that we had participated in this. No one treated me badly. HUNTLEY: So, you were somewhat of a hero, a shero. Let me ask you the day that you were encouraged by those individuals from the Alabama Christian Movement and SCLC you then left school and you went to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. Can you describe what happened at Sixteenth Street inside? SHEPHERD: At Sixteenth Street on the inside we had some of the same leaders that were at my school, also some other ones. And, they would talk, and they would tell us what to expect. They would tell us the route that we were going to take in the march and what to expect when the police and just stay together. We sung songs. As a matter of fact, some of the songs that we sung we sung those songs because a lot of people didn&#039 ; t know the songs or whatever, so we sung those for a while. And, when we got out on the street, we knew the songs. HUNTLEY: And you eventually then would leave the church in mass, I assume, because there are some that say that a hundred would leave at a time and march down the steps at Sixteenth Street, sort of describe that to me. The leaving of Sixteenth Street and coming onto the street to participate in the march. SHEPHERD: Well, it was like, to me it was like everybody trying to get in the lunchroom at one time. It was just mass students. Grown-ups too, but it was just a crowd. And, we all, like you say, left the church and it was just, as far as you could see, all the way across the road and to the front and to the back, it was just a lot of people, mostly students. HUNTLEY: What did you see when you first came out of the church? SHEPHERD: When I came out of the church to my recollection it was like policemen. You know policemen were near the church also, and spectators, you know, people that were involved and people were just there to be curious to see what was going to happen. The news people were there. HUNTLEY: Were there any firemen? SHEPHERD: Yes, of course, there were firemen there, because they had the hose that put the water on us, dogs. HUNTLEY: Were there police dogs there? SHEPHERD: Yes. There were police dogs. HUNTLEY: How far from the church did you get before the water was turned on you or the dogs, or did that happen? SHEPHERD: Yes, it did happen to me. But, I think it was like maybe within blocks because we went to the heart of downtown and it was a little distance from the church. HUNTLEY: Was it in the park, Kelly Ingram Park or after you passed through the park? SHEPHERD: No. It was on the regular street. It wasn&#039 ; t in the park. HUNTLEY: So, then you made it maybe a block? SHEPHERD: Maybe a block or two or what have you. HUNTLEY: Do you remember orders being given? SHEPHERD: Yes. To go back and not to go into certain stores and in certain parts of the street. As I remember they was all standing, they were really going to block us from making an entrance to certain streets. And, after we did not stop, that&#039 ; s when they turned the hose on and I remember rolling around on the ground because the water was so strong and when I got up, I was glad the water was turned off. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the water? Was it just wet or did it sting? SHEPHERD: Wet and strong. The water pressure was so strong until it would actually roll you around on the pavement. It was just that strong. They didn&#039 ; t care. HUNTLEY: Then were you arrested? SHEPHERD: Yes. HUNTLEY: What happened? How did that arrest take place? SHEPHERD: Well, the policemen came in what we would call the paddy wagons and they loaded us up, as many as they could in those wagons. And we were taken to juvenile court and processed, name and all of that. Then we were locked up and later on, during the same day, when they got as many, I guess as they wanted to, we were all taken to the Birmingham fairgrounds and that&#039 ; s where I stayed for four days. HUNTLEY: How were you taken from the city to the fairgrounds? SHEPHERD: In the paddy wagons, also. HUNTLEY: And you say you remained at the fairgrounds for four days? SHEPHERD: Four days. HUNTLEY: Sort of describe to me what you remember about that period. SHEPHERD: Well, I remember being very scared and we all cried a lot because we wanted to go home. I did. We wanted to go home. And we were told that we could not go home, that we would have to stay there until the Movement got us out or got the funds to get us out or whatever. And the first day wasn&#039 ; t too bad, but as the days progressed, it got worse and worse because I didn&#039 ; t like the food and we played games. I knew at that point that my mother was worried about me. I really started thinking about that a lot. So, we mostly like played games, cried, laid around. There wasn&#039 ; t anything really to do but hope that they would soon get us out. HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate? SHEPHERD: No. HUNTLEY: You were the only one that participated? SHEPHERD: I was the only one. HUNTLEY: What did they feel about your participation? SHEPHERD: Later on, we talked about it and they were glad that I did it. But, they was all crying. My mother told me that my grandmother would cry every day. She would cry and my sisters and brothers they would cry because they were afraid of what they were going to do to me. HUNTLEY: You were suspended from school? SHEPHERD: Yes. For four days when I was in jail. When I got out of school, my mother had to take me back to school. HUNTLEY: She took you back to school, were there any other kinds of repercussions as a result of your being involved? SHEPHERD: No. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of at the time? SHEPHERD: We went to Christian Valley in north Birmingham and sometimes we would go to Wilson Chapel Church because mostly my uncle had a church and we would have to go to his church a lot. So, a lot of times I visited those other churches because my friends went there. HUNTLEY: Were either of those churches involved in the Movement? Or the pastor of those churches involved in the Movement that you know of and can remember? SHEPHERD: I don&#039 ; t think so. HUNTLEY: What do you think were the benefits of you being involved in the Movement? What were the benefits to your family and the community as a result of that involvement? SHEPHERD: Well, I think there were a lot of benefits. Things changed in the community as well as downtown. For one thing it kind of motivated people to be their own person. Not necessarily be negative to Whites after then, but to stand up for themselves and say this is not right, or I feel that there&#039 ; s two sides to everything. And I think that later on it made us be able to have better jobs, better schools and pursue a lot of jobs that normally we would not have done because of that. Also, we were able to spend our money wherever we wanted to spend our money and be able to be treated like we were as good as anybody else. And I really felt like it made a big impact when I could still go to north Birmingham and no longer had to see the sign that &quot ; colored&quot ; in back and &quot ; white&quot ; folk only those kinds of things. HUNTLEY: So, would you suggest that the Movement was successful? SHEPHERD: I think so. HUNTLEY: And that its success is based upon the changes that you see has taken place over time? SHEPHERD: Yes. HUNTLEY: What did you do after you finished high school? I see you&#039 ; ve gone to Lawson State and a number of other places and you are now a dietician? SHEPHERD: A clinical diet technician in nutrition. HUNTLEY: So, do you think that the Movement had an impact upon what you would eventually do as a career? SHEPHERD: Well, I think that it had an impact on me going on. When I left school in the 11th grade, I went to Jeff State so I could get my GED. So, I think it made me continue my education, not just say, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m finished.&quot ; And, so I went on to Jeff State and got the GED and then after that I decided that I would get into nutrition, so I went to Lawson and after Lawson to the Linkage Program at UAB. HUNTLEY: Lawson has one of the best programs in the state in that regard, that many people are not that much aware of. Are there any other incidents that we have not talked about that come to mind that would relate to your involvement with the Movement? SHEPHERD: Oh yes, definitely so. I remember, like I said, we always lived around the northern side, Norwood, north Birmingham and at some point in the early 70s I moved to Kingston. And during the early part of the 70s when Benita Carter was killed I lived in that area and it kind of like brought it all back to me about the marching during that time because the policemen were down in the neighborhood again. They were like &quot ; get in the house.&quot ; &quot ; Get off the streets.&quot ; You know, &quot ; turn your lights out.&quot ; And, we had no choice. We had to do this. Just go in the house and stay. And, to me, it kind of reflected all back to me that this similar to what happened then. HUNTLEY: Where do you think we are today in regards to the Movement? SHEPHERD: I think they&#039 ; ve done wonderful things and I think they have come a long ways as far as equality and stuff like that and as far as people&#039 ; s civil rights and everything. I think that now they have a limit. You cannot mistreat people because of their race or color. Everybody is equal. And if there is not an equal opportunity, now we have the access and places to go. We have the courts. Even on your job now, these things that took place at that particular time, they may be somewhat prejudiced, but if you feel that you&#039 ; re being mistreated or things are not equally done, then you do have a voice now. Whereas, back then, you did not. This was just the way it was. HUNTLEY: If there was a call now for a demonstration or a march for some issue that may come to fore, would you participate today? SHEPHERD: Yes, I would. I have no regrets. HUNTLEY: If you had children of the age that you were during the time that you took part and had to go against the same kind of entities such as the police or whatever, that was at that particular time, would you allow your children to be involved? SHEPHERD: I would let them make up their own mind, but I would not say don&#039 ; t do it. I feel like that if they felt like they wanted to make a difference, it would be left up to them and I would support them. HUNTLEY: So, you believe that there is a need for a certain amount of activism even today in relationship to the struggle? SHEPHERD: Yes. We should never forget what we went through. Even though we have come a long way, there is always reason that things could change and go back if we get dormant and just stand still. So like today when they sing songs during Martin Luther King&#039 ; s birthday and remembering his death and all, like we sing songs like &quot ; We shall overcome,&quot ; and things like that, I&#039 ; m usually crying. A lot of people just sing those songs but to me they have meaning. They really do. And that&#039 ; s one of the reasons why, after today I will go. That&#039 ; s one of the reasons I have not visited the Institute because I always felt like it would be real painful to. HUNTLEY: You have not visited the Institute? SHEPHERD: I have not been there yet, in the two years. And sometimes I say I&#039 ; m going. HUNTLEY: Why have you thought that you should not visit at this point? SHEPHERD: Well, I don&#039 ; t feel that I shouldn&#039 ; t. I feel that I should go, but it&#039 ; s just that every time I think about going and things that I may see, it kind of depresses me. HUNTLEY: It&#039 ; s too emotional for you at this point? SHEPHERD: Yes. HUNTLEY: Well, we hope that you will come and if you do, I&#039 ; m sure you will see a lot that will remind you of those days, but I think it would be part of that healing process. SHEPHERD: I think so. HUNTLEY: So, you have an open invitation. SHEPHERD: Okay. HUNTLEY: So please come. SHEPHERD: I&#039 ; m going to come now. HUNTLEY: All right. I want to thank you for the time that we&#039 ; ve spent today because you&#039 ; ve been very helpful in helping us to piece together this story of Birmingham. As I said, many people have many stories to tell and I&#039 ; m sure you probably have a few more that you&#039 ; ll think of later on. SHEPHERD: Right. HUNTLEY: But, maybe we&#039 ; ll do this again sometime. SHEPHERD: I&#039 ; ll be glad to. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much for coming out. SHEPHERD: You&#039 ; re welcome. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JShepherd1995.xml JShepherd1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jessie Shepherd Description An account of the resource Jessie Shepherd discusses participating in the Children's Crusade and being arrested at the demonstration. She went on to become a dietitian after going to school at Lawson State and UAB. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950316S Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-03-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/4c8a564d8c8b7849b4c13b3746842a93.jpg 5539f6742760ba258f8c6361525579a4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jheri Hogan OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JHogan1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Kelly Ingram Park--Birmingham (Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 August 2, 1995 Jheri Hogan 19950802H 0:31:55 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Police brutality--United States Kelly Ingram Park--Birmingham (Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Jheri Hogan Horace Huntley Video 1:|12(14)|39(11)|67(8)|93(9)|105(13)|137(7)|160(4)|175(10)|193(12)|216(6)|233(7)|258(12)|289(1)|303(3)|315(17)|333(5)|357(12)|373(13)|400(12)|416(2)|433(12)|451(9)|462(7)|475(13)|485(1)|493(10)|511(5)|523(9)|539(8)|560(9)|573(8) 0 https://youtu.be/R7f4PhAeHk4 YouTube video English 21 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Jheri D. Hogan for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Ms. Hogan is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 41 Family Background What I'd like to do is just talking about, in general terms, your background. Hogan tells where her and her mother were born. Montgomery (Ala.) ; Troy (Mont.) Birmingham (Ala.) 86 Community Background As a child, what community did you live in? When you started school, where were you living? Hogan tells how she grew up in Smithfield but attended a private school that she would walk or ride the bus to. Blue collar workers ; Smithfield Birmingham (Ala.) 245 Attending Catholic Private Schools What do you remember about your elementary school? Hogan recalls how the schools she attended were segregated but she was taught by both white and Black teachers. Blacks--Segregation ; Immaculata ; Our Lady of Sorrows Birmingham (Ala.) 449 Getting Involved with the Movement Can you tell me, just explain to me what the typical mass meeting was like? Hogan recalls how she participated in the Movement because she thought it was a cause worth fighting for. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Mass Meeting ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 583 Being Arrested at a Demonstration Can you describe what the circumstances were of your arrest? Hogan tells how she skipped school to be a part of an organized demonstration and then she got arrested. Arrest (Police methods) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama 767 Spending Several Days in Jail How long were you in jail? Hogan describes how she spent several days in a cramped jail cell and was not released until two in the morning on Easter Sunday. Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; Easter ; Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) 1004 Participating in Other Demonstrations Well, maybe Bull Connor didn't arrest her. Well, the experience of being arrested and being in jail, how did that impact upon you? Hogan recalls how she participated in other demonstrations but never went to jail again. Civil rights movement ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama 1084 Demonstration at Kelly Ingram Park What was the experience with the water? Hogan recalls being at Kelly Ingram Park when the police tried to turn the hoses on but they could not get the water to come out. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Kelly Ingram Park ; Police brutality--United States Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights demonstrations 1145 Support From Her Friends at School When, you came out of jail, you said that your mother simple said, &quot ; Well, you've done it, now.&quot ; How were you accepted at school as a result of your friends seeing you on TV? Hogan recalls her friends supporting her decision to participate in the demonstrations and how other kids at different schools participated as well. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama Birmingham (Ala.) 1270 Moving Around After High School What did you do after Immaculata, after you finished school? Did you stay in Birmingham or did you leave Birmingham? Hogan discusses how she moved around a lot and how people assumed she liked being away from Birmingham. Atlanta (Ga.) ; Baton Rouge (La.) ; Pittsburgh (Pa.) Bobby Durr Beauty College ; Charm and Modeling School 1422 Racism in the North and South So, are you suggesting that in Birmingham a Black person is probably better off because they know what to expect and other places it may be different? Hogan tells how northern racism is different and that there are areas up there where it is not safe to live. African Americans--Segregation ; Racism African Americans--Southern States ; Northern States 1496 Missing the Togetherness of the Movement The Civil Rights Institute was established for the purpose of gathering information and what we're doing with the oral history project, of course, is gathering information about the Movement itself. Hogan discusses how everyone looked out for each other and how there was a sense of belonging when she participated in the Movement. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) 1704 Educating the Younger Generations I mentioned earlier about the Civil Rights Institute and what is being planned and what is happening there. Hogan states that there is a need for the Institute because the younger generations need to learn about those who sacrificed for them. African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) African Americans--Education ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1880 Conclusion of Interview Thank you very much for coming out, Ms. Hogan. We appreciate your time and you've been quite a help to us. Interview is concluded. Oral History Jheri Hogan discusses spending several days in jail after being arrested at a demonstration. She details how her experiences with racism differed once she moved north from Birmingham. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Jheri D. Hogan for the Birmingham Civil Rights lnstitute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is August 2, 1995. Thank you Mrs. Hogan for coming and being with us today. HOGAN: Thank you. You&#039 ; re welcome. HUNTLEY: What I&#039 ; d like to do is just talking about, in general terms, your background. What we are doing here is simply trying to set the record straight about people&#039 ; s participation in the civil rights movement and I just want to start simply by talking about your family. Can you tell me, were your mother and father from Birmingham? HOGAN: No. I don&#039 ; t really know where my father was from. But my mom was born in Troy, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Troy, Alabama, that&#039 ; s down south of Montgomery, I believe. HOGAN: Somewhere in that neighborhood. HUNTLEY: But you were born, here in Birmingham? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you were an only child, is that right? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: As a child, what community did you live in? When you started school, where were you living? HOGAN: On 17th Street between 8th and 9th Avenue North. It&#039 ; s kind of like downtown Birmingham. HUNTLEY: So, how would you describe your community at that time? HOGAN: Well, the only thing I can say about it, the average person maybe would have said it was the ghetto. But, to me it was a nice community. There were elderly people who saw about the children. You know, kind of like everybody raise the child. And, I was there for a couple of years. And, from there, my mom moved to Smithfield Projects. HUNTLEY: Where did you start first grade? HOGAN: At a Catholic school on 14th Street South and 6th Avenue South. HUNTLEY: Were you living then in Smithfield? HOGAN: Yes, I was living in Smithfield. HUNTLEY: How did you get to school? HOGAN: Ride the bus or walked. HUNTLEY: But you did both? HOGAN: Yes. Because I liked to walk. And, nobody bothered little children at that time, so I could walk to school. HUNTLEY: That was quite a distance from 8th Avenue North to 6th Avenue South? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s over a mile. HOGAN: Probably a little further than that. But, at the time, I knew my mom was having problems where money was concerned. So, what I would do would be to try to help. My momma bought the bus tickets, so I&#039 ; d ride the bus to school in the morning and in the evening I&#039 ; d just save my bus ticket and I&#039 ; d walk home. And, it wasn&#039 ; t a problem because it wasn&#039 ; t dark because you got out of school at 3:00. And, like I said, nobody bothered me. HUNTLEY: And you were not walking alone, I assume there were others. HOGAN: Most cases I was. HUNTLEY: Is that right? HOGAN: Because I&#039 ; m a loner, sort of. HUNTLEY: But, there were other children that walked from your community to that school weren&#039 ; t there? HOGAN: No. Because the children in my community went to Lincoln school. Most of them went to public school. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. HOGAN: I went a different direction. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your elementary school? Is there anything that stands out in your mind, about your school, Our Lady of Sorrows? Any teachers, or any subjects that you took? HOGAN: Well, not really. Sister Mary Mercy kind of stands out because for a strange reason, she was my third grade teacher, and, then she became my fifth grade teacher, then she was my sixth grade teacher. So she kind of hung with me for three years. Miss Ford was real nice. She was a Black lay teacher. She taught the fourth grade and Miss Ray was nice. She was the second grade teacher. I just remember these people, they were real nice. HUNTLEY: So you had both Black and White teachers? HOGAN :Yes. I had, in elementary school, I had three. Miss Lacy taught the seventh grade and Miss Ray taught the second and Miss Ford taught the fourth grade. HUNTLEY: So those were three... HOGAN: They were called lay teachers because they were not nuns. And my other teachers were nuns. HUNTLEY: Were the nuns Black or White? HOGAN: All my nuns were White. HUNTLEY: And the lay teachers were Black? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: And, this is in Birmingham, in the 50s, I assume? HOGAN: Yes, in the segregation time. Because my school was segregated. My church was segregated. HUNTLEY: As far as the people were concerned, the student population? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: But your teachers, were both Black and White? HOGAN: Yes. And, my priest was White. HUNTLEY: Well, in Birmingham, Alabama in the 1950s, did that present a problem that you had White teachers at a Black school? HOGAN: No. It didn&#039 ; t present a problem. That was a private school. It was not funded by anything other than by the people who went to school, because we had to pay to go to school. HUNTLEY: It&#039 ; s a Church supported school, it&#039 ; s a Catholic school? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: And, then you went on to Immaculata, to high school? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Immaculata? HOGAN: Not a whole lot. It was the same. Black and White teachers. HUNTLEY: What about activities, were you involved in any activities in high school? HOGAN: No. Because what we really had was basketball, and, we did have a girl&#039 ; s team, but no, I did not. HUNTLEY: Immaculata had a good basketball team at that time and there was a huge rivalry between Immaculata and Ullman or Immaculata and Parker or Immaculata and Wynona. Did you attend the basketball games? HOGAN: Sometimes. HUNTLEY: You graduated from Immaculata in &#039 ; 63. This is the year where the massive demonstrations took place. You had attended mass meetings, right? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me, just explain to me what the typical mass meeting was like? What happened at a mass meeting? HOGAN: I&#039 ; m trying to think. That&#039 ; s kind of hard to do. I remembered that we would go to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church all night. And different ministers would get up and talk to us and they would tell us what was going on. And, I&#039 ; m trying to think, I cannot remember if I signed up, or... HUNTLEY: How you actively got involved? HOGAN: I cannot really remember that far. HUNTLEY: Whether you were a card carrying member or not. Many people, of course, were not necessarily members of the Alabama Christian Movement, but they participated. HOGAN: I participated. My father was the card carrying person. HUNTLEY: So that may have been your initiative to get involved, is your father, then. HOGAN: Not really. My initiative was to get involved was because everybody that was getting involved was getting involved for a purpose. And my purpose was because I wanted to help my people, if I could. And, if it meant demonstrating and boycotting, then that&#039 ; s what I had to do. HUNTLEY: Were there other friends of yours that were involved from school or from your community that you knew personally, that you all went to meetings together? HOGAN: No. Whatever I did, is like now, I do it by myself. HUNTLEY: You were somewhat of a loner. I know that you actually participated in demonstrations, so you didn&#039 ; t do that alone, now. HOGAN: No, I do that alone. But, they weren&#039 ; t people like I knew personally or close. was in the Movement and when we did the demonstrations there were a lot of people. I don&#039 ; t really remember them. HUNTLEY: You were involved in the demonstration just prior to Easter, I believe? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: And, you were actually arrested. HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you describe what the circumstances were of your arrest? HOGAN: Let&#039 ; s see, I remember we were walking. We went down 5th Avenue because we got stopped where the old Trailways bus station was. And, if I&#039 ; m thinking correctly, the policeman stopped us, I don&#039 ; t know if they said, disorderly conduct, I cannot remember what the charge was. HUNTLEY: Well, let me back up just a bit. Do you remember the specific day that you were arrested? Did you go to school that morning or did you leave school? HOGAN: I didn&#039 ; t go to school because, let me see, no, I didn&#039 ; t go to school that morning. HUNTLEY: Did your parents, your mother know that you were going to the demonstration that morning? HOGAN: No. HUNTLEY: Well, what did you do? You left home going to school. HOGAN: Well, see my mom always left home before I did because my mom had to be at work. So when I left home, nobody knew what my intentions were, but me. HUNTLEY: Now, this time, where were you living? HOGAN: In Smithfield Projects. HUNTLEY: You were living in Smithfield, so you were actually going in the opposite direction than going to school that morning, when you left home? HOGAN: I was going in the right direction of going to school, because I was going downtown, because see, I had to ride the bus. HUNTLEY: Oh, you rode the bus, I see. And, how did you make the decision that you were going to the demonstration rather than to school? HOGAN: I had already been to the meeting. And, whatever I had to do for, because you had, I think we had to sign up, because they had to know, because they were going to have to know who they were going to have to get out of jail. HUNTLEY: You mean, you may have signed up the previous evening at the meeting prior to? HOGAN: I had to sign up prior to, because you don&#039 ; t just go and, you know, you didn&#039 ; t just go, they had it organized. HUNTLEY: Well, after you signed up that night, probably the night before the demonstration, then you went home, did you tell your mother about signing up for the demonstration? HOGAN: No. HUNTLEY: Why not? HOGAN: Because she would have forbidden me to go. HUNTLEY: Oh, so you simply decided on your own that it was time for you to get involved? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Then, you are arrested, and you are placed in the paddy wagon, when did your mother find out that you were arrested? HOGAN: On the news. HUNTLEY: Wait a minute, what do you mean, on the news? HOGAN: She saw me stepping up in the paddy wagon, like my friends saw me stepping up in the paddy wagon. HUNTLEY: What was her first reaction when she saw you, after you had been arrested? HOGAN: She didn&#039 ; t say anything, just, &quot ; Okay, you did it.&quot ; HUNTLEY: How long were you in jail? HOGAN: I think we went like, we were in there a couple of days, because I remember that, we may have been in there three days, because we may have gone in the middle of the week. Because, I know we went to court on a Friday and they had did all our bonds. Rev. Gardner had did our bonds and everything. But they did not let us out until like 2:00 that Easter Sunday morning. HUNTLEY: Is that right. HOGAN: That&#039 ; s when they started calling different names and letting everybody out. HUNTLEY: That seemed to be a trend, because many people have stated that they were let out, very, very early in the morning, between 1:00 and 4:00, before sunrise. That&#039 ; s rather interesting. What do you remember about being in jail? HOGAN: I remember this old lady. I remember when we first got out of the paddy wagon. Well, back up. Going to jail they just packed us in like sardines in a can. They rode down the railroad tracks, things that&#039 ; s not there now. Just kind of reel and rock because the paddy wagon was metal and everybody was just, you couldn&#039 ; t breathe or anything. And, when they took us out, they took us in this little room and they fingerprinted us. And this old lady always stands out in my mind, because she started shouting. She wasn&#039 ; t upset, she was just praising God that she had got a chance to live, to see it, to try to help do something about the way things were going. And, then they took us. And, at first they put us in a regular jail with the regular inmates and the inmates we had, we had some and stuff on us, so the inmates that could go out, went out and brought us lunch meat and stuff back. They were real nice. They took our clothes that we had on and washed them and brought them back to us. So, the policemen didn&#039 ; t like that, so they took us and put us upstairs in some cells that didn&#039 ; t have any mattress or anything. And, they had this huge fan up in the ceiling that they turned on but we could turn it off because the switch was on, in our room. And they used to yell at us. But at nighttime or whenever, the old people felt like praying, if somebody started praying and singing, they wouldn&#039 ; t say nothing. HUNTLEY: The police would not say anything? HOGAN: They wouldn&#039 ; t say anything. They had an old lady in there who call Jesus and she could him so, you would think he was standing right there, he was on his way in the door. And, then we would sing our songs and they wouldn&#039 ; t say anything. The only time they said something is when we got quiet. So, most times it was something going on. HUNTLEY: When you were arrested, were you inside the terminal? HOGAN: No. We were outside, because we were walking down the street. HUNTLEY: I see. Now, you were demonstrating, this was the same demonstration that Al Hibbler was a part of? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did they arrest him? HOGAN: No. HUNTLEY: Why not? HOGAN: Well, Bull Conner said he didn&#039 ; t arrest blind people. HUNTLEY: But, when you arrived at the jail, you were surprised by something, what was that? HOGAN: There was a Black lady in jail, and she was blind and she could get around in the jail better than we could. She knew all the little holes, everywhere everything was. And she had been arrested because of disorderly conduct and drinking. HUNTLEY: Well, maybe Bull Conner didn&#039 ; t arrest her. Well, the experience of being arrested and being in jail, how did that impact upon you? What did you learn from that or did you learn anything from it? HOGAN: Well, going to jail didn&#039 ; t really bother me because I knew I was going for a purpose. I wasn&#039 ; t going because I had did something wrong. I was going because I wanted to try to achieve something. And whatever I had to do, to be a part of or to help, I did. HUNTLEY: So, this experience then, didn&#039 ; t deter you from being active in the Movement? HOGAN: No. HUNTLEY: Were you in other demonstrations afterwards? HOGAN: Well, I was in other demonstrations and doing things. But, at that time afterwards, they decided, I wasn&#039 ; t one that they would put in jail. I was one that they would put water or they would start putting dogs on us. HUNTLEY: Did you ever experience any of that, the water or the dogs? HOGAN: The water, but not the dogs. HUNTLEY: What was the experience with the water? HOGAN: In the park. HUNTLEY: Tell me about it. HOGAN: Well, we were ready for them because we knew what they had planned to do. So we wore swimsuits, we took soap. We kind of make clowns out of them and they didn&#039 ; t like that. We were just ready for it, for whatever they were going to do. So that kind of deterred them a little, from doing that. We had a Sunday prayer, a Sunday in the park and they were going to turn the water on us again. HUNTLEY: Is this at Kelly Ingram Park? HOGAN: Yes. But the water wouldn&#039 ; t come on. They were praying so hard and just forgot about it. HUNTLEY: So, you&#039 ; re saying the spirit was there? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you were basically protected as a result of the strength of the prayers? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: When, you came out of jail, you said that your mother simply said, &quot ; Well, you&#039 ; ve done it, now.&quot ; How were you accepted at school as a result of your friends seeing you on TV? HOGAN: Oh, they thought it was great. They thought I had did something great. Because when they saw me go to jail, everybody got together and they packed lunches and candy and all this stuff and they brought it, but they would not let us have it. And, the night, well the early morning that they let me out of jail, they called me. I was like half-way down the street, outside. So they called me to come back. And everybody got frightened, including me, because I didn&#039 ; t know what they wanted. And, when I went back he gave me this great big bag and it was candy, cookies, everything. Everybody had got together and brought it down because they thought that we could have it. Well, I guess in a normal state, we could have, but by the situation being as it was, they wouldn&#039 ; t give it to me. But, they wouldn&#039 ; t do anything with it, either. HUNTLEY: Do you know if there were other students from Immaculata that were arrested, not necessarily at the same time as you, but maybe at different times? HOGAN: No. I don&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: But you do remember that there were a lot of young people involved? HOGAN: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: But you didn&#039 ; t know any of them personally? HOGAN: No. Yes, I did. Because Clark, he was one of my neighbors. His mom, I know his mom had told he and his sister not to go. And, Parker had a fence up around it. That&#039 ; s when the kids knocked the fence down and came out, a lot of the kids went to jail. HUNTLEY: The kids were coming from all over Birmingham, various schools. Some would go to schools and leave schools. Others, like yourself, would not even go to school, but participated. What did you do after Immaculata, after you finished school? Did you stay in Birmingham or did you leave Birmingham? HOGAN: Well, when I finished school, I went to Bobby Durr Beauty College and Charm and Modeling School. HUNTLEY: And, you eventually developed your own business, right? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, have you lived in Birmingham the entire time? HOGAN: No. For a while I lived in Atlanta. And, from Atlanta, went to Pittsburgh. From Pittsburgh, back to Atlanta. And from Atlanta to Baton Route, Louisiana. And would have stayed there but my mom got sick and I came home to see about her. And, that&#039 ; s when I started my own business 12 years ago. HUNTLEY: I see. So, of course, the attraction of your mom being here in Birmingham, but as you travelled from Atlanta to Pittsburgh to Baton Rouge, did any of the experiences that you had in Birmingham have any impact upon how you actually related to other people in these various places that you had lived? Did people, after they found out you were from Birmingham, did they have questions about what Birmingham was like and if you had been involved. Any kinds of questions like that from people in Pittsburgh, Atlanta and Baton Rouge? HOGAN: Well, people would tease me sometime and say, &quot ; It&#039 ; s good to be away, huh?&quot ; And I&#039 ; d say, &quot ; No, because Birmingham is my home, and I like my home.&quot ; And, the one thing that I know, that as long as my skin is this color, I know what&#039 ; s going to happen. And, like I told them, &quot ; In Birmingham, I know, they throw the rock and you see the hand. Away from home, they throw the rock and hide their hand.&quot ; People are people all over the world. And, in my choice, I would still rather be here at home. HUNTLEY: So, are you suggesting that in Birmingham a Black person is probably better off because they know what to expect and other places it may be different? HOGAN: I say you know exactly what to expect here and I really believe that up north they know what to expect. It&#039 ; s just that the stigmatism was back in slavery time or coming out of slavery. They offered one-way tickets up north because of the north and the south thing. But, in studying, in being there, in listening to the news, they are places up north that they don&#039 ; t want Blacks either. There are places where they can&#039 ; t live safely either. And here, there are a little more places that you can live safely, they may not want you there, but if you get there, they are not as harmful. HUNTLEY: The Civil Rights Institute was established for the purpose of gathering information and what we&#039 ; re doing with the oral history project, of course, is gathering information about the Movement itself. If someone would ask you the question that I&#039 ; m about to ask you, what would be the most vivid memory that you have, of those days that you were involved with the Civil Rights Movement? Is there anything that stands out in your mind, that you remember during the period that you were involved as a young person in the demonstrations or attending the meetings? HOGAN: The people who attended the meeting were, to me, close together. A togetherness that we need as a whole. And I wish that we could be together. HUNTLEY: Are you suggesting that people were closer together at that point, more so than we are today? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Why do you think that&#039 ; s the case? HOGAN: I don&#039 ; t really truthfully have an answer for that. I just remember something my dad use to say. He said when he was young, he knew exactly what he was going to wear because he only had one outfit and he had to wash it and keep it clean. He said, but now he&#039 ; s got so many things, he don&#039 ; t know what to wear. And he&#039 ; ll say, I don&#039 ; t have anything, but he has plenty. And that&#039 ; s the only reason I know, because when we didn&#039 ; t have anything, we were close. Because as a child I can remember when I used to go to the country to see my grandmother, nobody was hungry and nobody was outside, other than one time a lady&#039 ; s house got burned up. She didn&#039 ; t have to worry because people always had something to offer or to help and they were sincere. And, now we&#039 ; ve got so much and we&#039 ; ve come so far, but also in coming so far, we&#039 ; ve gotten so far apart. HUNTLEY: Well, then, does that mean that today, if we had less or does that mean that we should not strive to get more because it places a wedge between us, or what does that mean? HOGAN: No. I think we should strive to get more. Because I truly believe that that&#039 ; s what God wants us to do, is to have more. But, also, in having more, we should share and we should be closer because we have come so far. HUNTLEY: So, really the gathering of these material things should not act as a wedge? We should really look at those as being blessings and actually those should draw us closer together rather than open the gap more so? HOGAN: True, true. HUNTLEY: I mentioned earlier about the Civil Rights Institute and what is being planned and what is happening there. How do you view the Institute itself in relationship to the Movement? Do you think that it is something that needed to happen or do you think that we really didn&#039 ; t need a Civil Rights Institute here in Birmingham? HOGAN: I think we needed it. We need it bad. HUNTLEY: Why? HOGAN: Because of the younger generation who didn&#039 ; t have to come up like I did, they need to be able to view and truly see what has happened in their history. And, if they see what has happened in their history, hopefully it will make them want to do better about themselves. HUNTLEY: So you think that as an educational institution, it is very important simply to keep the history alive so that the children and the generations to come will actually know from whence they&#039 ; ve come? HOGAN: True. So true. HUNTLEY: Do you have children? HOGAN: I have one daughter. HUNTLEY: Have you talked with her about your experiences during the movement? HOGAN: Yes. HUNTLEY: How does she react to what you tell her? HOGAN: Well, she understands what&#039 ; s happening, what has happened and what is happening. HUNTLEY: Is there a way that you would think we should be able to pass this information on down through the generations, in addition to utilizing the Civil Rights Institute? Can we do some of that at home, as well? HOGAN: Yes. If we talk to our children and if we have Black history books, because they do have things that tell us about it. And, we as Blacks, have always stood for something, have done things, from the time there&#039 ; s been a world up until now. HUNTLEY: And you think that this obviously is a key ingredient in that whole sojourn of Black people throughout this country? Are you suggesting that this period of history, that you were instrumental in, plays a key role in the total development of the history of Birmingham and of the nation? HOGAN: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to share with us today, in relationship to the Movement that we may have not touched upon? HOGAN: I don&#039 ; t think so. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much for coming out, Ms. Hogan. We appreciate your time and you&#039 ; ve been quite a help to us. HUNTLEY: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JHogan1995.xml JHogan1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jheri Hogan Description An account of the resource Jheri Hogan discusses spending several days in jail after being arrested at a demonstration. She details how her experiences with racism differed once she moved north from Birmingham. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950802H Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Police brutality--United States Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-08-02 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/32a1b8c339d3a4887be8ff2400d28ea5.jpg 989783369fa5ad789623dbdbcc36905b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joe Hendricks OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JHendricks1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Freedom Rides, 1961 OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 June 23, 1995 Joe Hendricks 19950623H 0:51:36 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Birmingham-Shuttlesworth International Airport (Ala.) Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Freedom Rides, 1961 Joe Hendricks Horace Huntley Video 1:|6(8)|29(3)|41(10)|51(9)|74(6)|81(2)|93(1)|105(8)|125(12)|146(6)|157(9)|173(11)|186(9)|199(8)|213(6)|226(1)|243(11)|258(8)|270(4)|282(4)|297(9)|320(1)|336(1)|351(12)|366(11)|382(6)|397(17)|405(1)|412(6)|423(10)|432(4)|451(3)|473(13)|488(15)|504(5)|520(2)|532(16)|550(15)|560(7)|569(2)|579(2)|589(7)|601(12)|612(3)|626(8)|636(12)|648(10)|654(15)|671(8)|679(13)|693(10) 0 https://youtu.be/JquNgFPZSY8 YouTube video English 43 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Mr. Joe Hendricks for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Joe Hendricks is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 59 Family Background Tell me a little bit about your parents. Where were your parents from? Hendricks recalls how his parents were sharecroppers and how everyone helped out on the farm. African American agricultural laborers ; Sharecroppers Boligee (Ala.) ; Children of sharecroppers 291 Educational Background Tell me a little about your education. Hendricks tells how he attended school through the ninth grade and then moved to Birmingham to find a job. Junior high school students ; Rural schools--United States Birmingham (Ala.) 465 Moving to Birmingham Then, after 9th grade, you left and came to Birmingham? Hendricks recalls how he moved to Birmingham and worked for Jim Dandy Company and other blue collar companies. Hayes Aircraft Corporation ; Jim Dandy Company ; Lumber Jack Meat Birmingham (Ala.) 537 Involvement with the NAACP In 1946. At that time, the NAACP was probably the Movement in Birmingham. Did you get involved with the NAACP? Hendricks recalls how he was involved with Reverend Shuttlesworth before the Movement and then became involved with the NAACP. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil Rights District 590 Becoming a Registered Voter Did you become a registered voter? Hendricks recalls how he had to answer questions designed to trip him up so he could not become a registered voter. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Jim Crow laws ; Voter registration 711 Involvement in the Alabama Christian Movement In 1956, the NAACP was outlawed from operating in the state of Alabama. In that same week, the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized. Hendricks was highly active in the Movement and that looked forward to the mass meetings on Monday nights. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Sardis Baptist Church Birmingham (Ala.) 804 Attending the Mass Meetings How would you describe the typical mass meeting? Hendricks discusses how the mass meetings were lively and energetic but there was a police presence. Mass meetings ; Revival hymns Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 950 Personal Incident with the Police Were there any incidences, for example, on the way to the mass meetings or after the mass meeting, when you are headed home, that you may have been stopped by the police? Hendricks discusses how he was stopped and surrounded by fifteen police cars but they did not hurt him because they were worried about repercussions. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 1140 Being On Guard at Shuttlesworth's House So you then were one of the guards for Shuttlesworth home and church and I assume other places as well. Can you tell me how that operation was set up? Hendricks discusses an incident with a white man while he was on guard duty at Reverend Shuttlesworth's house. Bethel Baptist Church (Saint Clair County, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 1336 Arrested for Sitting on a Bus I know that you were arrested once because you sat on a bus? Hendricks recalls how he would not move to the back of the bus and was arrested because of it. African Americans--Segregation ; Buses ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.) 1589 Participation in the Sit-in at the Airport Did you take part in the sit-in out at the airport? Hendricks discusses how he and his friends were forced to pay extra for lunch and how their attorney won a lawsuit against the airport for discrimination. Arrest (Police methods) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham-Shuttlesworth International Airport (Ala.) ; Discrimination ; Racism 1839 Rescuing the Freedom Riders In 1961, we had a group of people called Freedom Riders who started their trip in Washington, D.C. and was headed to New Orleans. Hendricks discusses how he and other members of the Movement rescued the Freedom Riders from the police and the white mob to drive them back to Birmingham. Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Anniston (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) 2094 Helping White Freedom Riders Stranded in Anniston Birmingham is about 60 miles from Anniston, how did you know the people were in Anniston and stranded? Hendricks recalls how no one wanted to bring the white ladies back in their car because of fear of harassment from other white people, so he drove them back. Freedom Rides, 1961 Anniston (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) 2247 Lack of Police Interference Upon Return to Birmingham Were you approached at all by the police when you got into Birmingham? Hendricks states that he did not have any difficulty with the police and thanks God for protecting him and allowing him to participate in the Movement. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Harassment Birmingham (Ala.) ; God 2433 Participation in the 1963 Demonstrations Did you participate in the demonstrations during the '63 marches, between April and May of 1963? Hendricks recalls strategizing for the demonstrations and remembers seeing everyone sprayed with the hoses and assaulted by the police. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States 2661 Circumstances of Losing His Job Did you ever lose your job? Hendricks recalls how he lost his job because he was arrested for sitting on the bus and participating in the Movement. Jim Dandy Company ; Racism Birmingham (Ala.) ; Discrimination 2916 Intimidation and Lessons from the Movement Is there anything else that you would like to add that we may not have covered that relates to the Movement? Hendricks states that the movement taught Black people to stop being complacent with their circumstances and to not be intimated or harassed. Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) 3056 Conclusion of Interview Mr. Hendricks, I want to thank you for coming and taking your time out of your busy schedule to talk with us today. Interview is concluded. Oral History Joe Hendricks discusses being active in the Movement with Rev. Shuttlesworth, the NAACP and the ACMHR. He was arrested during a bus sit-in and helped integrate the Birmingham Airport. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mr. Joe Hendricks for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 23, 1995. Mr. Hendricks, thank you for taking the time out to come and sit and talk with us today. What I would like to do initially is start with some general kinds of questions about your background. Tell me a little bit about your parents. Where were your parents from? HENDRICKS: My parents were raised in Green County a place called Boligee. HUNTLEY: Boligee, Alabama near Menchway, Alabama? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were you also born in Boligee? HENDRICKS: Right. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have? HENDRICKS: I had eight brothers and four sisters. HUNTLEY: Where did you fit in there? HENDRICKS: I&#039 ; m close somewhere in the 7th child or 8th, somewhere in that area. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little bit about your parents education. How much education did they have? HENDRICKS: Well, it wasn&#039 ; t very much education going with my parents because my parents&#039 ; daddy and mother were under slave masters. And out of that they had to get whatever was pretty well left and they was under the Hoover days. Back in that day, when there wasn&#039 ; t anything very much to do, especially on a farm. And they didn&#039 ; t have anything to get an education with. As a matter of fact, even after I got up, it was left to a community to educate a child, not a family. HUNTLEY: How do you mean, &quot ; it&#039 ; s left up to the community?&quot ; HENDRICKS: When they met like we meet on Sunday now, they would raise money to send that girl off to college so she could continue her education along with the community. It wasn&#039 ; t enough money for most families to send a kid to school. The first started by the churches and the community getting involved with a kid when you found a good student. So, out of that it wasn&#039 ; t any chance for very much education. Because under the slave master it wasn&#039 ; t allowed. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. In fact it was against the law to teach Black people to read and write. What about their occupations? What kind of work did they do? HENDRICKS: Farming is the only thing that they had. And maybe go out to cut timber in the winter to do something like that. And that&#039 ; s about all they had to do. HUNTLEY: Was your father a farmer? HENDRICKS: My father was a farmer. HUNTLEY: And your mother worked at home, I assume. Did she work outside the home? HENDRICKS: No. At that point there was no such thing as nobody worked at home. Everybody farmed in our house. My mother went to the field, daddy went to the field and the children went to field. They put me in the field when I was five years old and I been there ever since. HUNTLEY: Did your family own the farm? HENDRICKS: No. HUNTLEY: Were you sharecropping? HENDRICKS: They rented it. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your education. HENDRICKS: I went to Jane Wood Jr. High and I went to the 9th grade. After that I came to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Did you attend school here in Birmingham? HENDRICKS: No. I came here and started to work. HUNTLEY: Tell me what do you remember about your school? HENDRICKS: Going to school there, they had teachers were very smart. At that time anybody who finished high school seemed to have been teachers because it was in the area where very few people went to college and more or less our teachers were 12th grades to a B.S. degree. And that&#039 ; s what more or less that they had to offer. HUNTLEY: How regular did you attend school? Were you in school every day for nine months out of the year or how did that process work? HENDRICKS: Well, my schooling was very scarcely done because I went to school like three months out of a year. Most other times until I got 14 years I was out of school. I only went about three months because everything was real bad and we didn&#039 ; t have the sufficient clothes and things to attend as we should have. So those kind of things made it kind of rough. But after 14, then I started going pretty regular after that. HUNTLEY: Then, after 9th grade, you left and came to Birmingham? HENDRICKS: Right. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances? Why did you come to Birmingham? HENDRICKS: There wasn&#039 ; t any money there, too much. And, I felt that I could here because I had some brothers here, they had left and had done pretty well and I decided I would come here too. HUNTLEY: So where was your first job in Birmingham? HENDRICKS: I came here and went to Jim Dandy and stayed there for 38 years. HUNTLEY: You started at Jim Dandy and was there for 38 years and never had another job? HENDRICKS: Yes. And worked there until they closed. I left there and I went to Lumber Jack Meat where they kill and prepare meat for market. And I left there and went to Hayes Aircraft and that was about it until I started working some for myself. HUNTLEY: In coming to Birmingham, you came in the mid-40&#039 ; s? HENDRICKS: &#039 ; 46. HUNTLEY: In 1946. At that time the NAACP was probably the Movement in Birmingham. Did you get involved with the NAACP? HENDRICKS: Yes, I was involved with Mr. before the Movement and when the Movement started I thought that was the biggest thing that really helped our people, so that&#039 ; s what I did. I got with them and tried to do whatever I could. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in in the 40s and 50s and early 60s? HENDRICKS: 14th Street between 3rd and 4th Avenues across from Edward Chevrolet. HUNTLEY: All right. That&#039 ; s really in the Civil Rights district now, right? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you become a registered voter? HENDRICKS: Yes, as soon as we could. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances? HENDRICKS: We had a lot of hassle with it. Registration started like -- they gave us a real hard time. We had an application to fill like the Bessemer Short Route, all of the senators that we had in Washington. All of the officers in Montgomery, our Birmingham district, all those kinds of questions we were to answer before we could vote. Then, after we got into that then some people could pretty well handle it pretty good and they felt that we shouldn&#039 ; t be making any progress so they put the damper on it. And, they started asking questions that they could not answer. HUNTLEY: For instance? What kind of questions? HENDRICKS: They would ask you, &quot ; How high is height?&quot ; &quot ; How far is distant?&quot ; &quot ; How many bubbles in a bar of soap?&quot ; Those kind of questions. And, that put the damper on to start with. After that, then, after we got some clearing on to go ahead to move that, then we moved into the area of getting some voters qualified. HUNTLEY: Do you remember the day that you qualified to become a voter? HENDRICKS: No. Really, as years passed you don&#039 ; t keep up with this day after day. HUNTLEY: But you do remember some of the questions that were asked you in qualifying you to vote? HENDRICKS: Yes. Those were the questions, some of the things we ran into in the process of registering to vote. HUNTLEY: In 1956 the NAACP was outlawed from operating in the State of Alabama. In that same week, the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized. Were you involved in the initial organization of the Movement? HENDRICKS: I didn&#039 ; t hold office, but I did go to the meeting. I was active from the day that it started because everything went well, I thought. And, I thought that was the biggest thing, the best thing that had ever happened on my part. So I gladly started taking part and stayed with it as long as it was seemingly doing something worthwhile. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the first days of the Movement? HENDRICKS: Well, I think the first days of the Movement, they said they were going to meet somewhere and they finally ended up meeting at, I believe at Sardis. And, they organized there. And from that day, they went forward. I believe that was something like &#039 ; 56. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. HENDRICKS: And, from that day they started meeting. Later on they started every Monday night, you would have mass meeting. Everybody was looking forward to Monday night. HUNTLEY: How would you describe the typical mass meeting? HENDRICKS: Well, the mass meeting was set upon mostly what we know. It was based on prayer. Someone would speak. The pastor got a musical department and we had a choir, mass choir and those kind of things. That&#039 ; s what it was based on, and they would take up collection and this is the forum that we used to fight the cases in court. HUNTLEY: Some people have described the meetings to be like revival sessions. There would be preaching, there would be people that testified in relation to what they had experience. Rev. Shuttlesworth and others would speak as well. HENDRICKS: Well, they would have a speaker every night. It was based on the same operation as a church service. That&#039 ; s what it was, and we would have a minister and the choir and devotion with prayer and those kind of things. HUNTLEY: Were police present at the meetings? HENDRICKS: Yes. More policemen were outside at some point. But they weren&#039 ; t really -- we didn&#039 ; t feel that they were there for the right purpose, so we had our own guards along with the policemen on the outside. Someone always stayed outside with the police where the mass meeting was held. HUNTLEY: Did you look at the policemen being there to protect you? HENDRICKS: We didn&#039 ; t feel like that was the purpose of them being there and we would tell them sometimes. &quot ; We appreciate you&#039 ; re being here, but we don&#039 ; t feel comfortable with you.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Were there any incidences, for example, on the way to the mass meetings or after the mass meeting, when you are headed home, that you may have been stopped by the police? HENDRICKS: Well, I was going to guard duty out to Rev. Shuttlesworth house when I was stopped by the policemen. And, they asked me for my driver&#039 ; s license and I pulled out the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights card and give them that. So there were about 15 cars of policemen in a dark place, you couldn&#039 ; t see anything. And, they said to me, &quot ; Give me your driver&#039 ; s license.&quot ; And it was courtesy at all and they were using the word nigger and this kind of thing. I was kind of shook up. HUNTLEY: Why did you give them your Movement card? HENDRICKS: Well, I couldn&#039 ; t see anything. HUNTLEY: So it was a mistake? HENDRICKS: Yes. I went to my billfold, the Movement card was hard like the driver&#039 ; s license with the little plastic. The driver&#039 ; s license had plastic, hard and I just felt something hard, because there wasn&#039 ; t any light. And when he shined the light on it, he said, &quot ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights&quot ; rather than a drivers license. I thought it was a driver&#039 ; s license when it wasn&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: Were you afraid at that point? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: You said there were 15 police cars? HENDRICKS: The way they surrounded me I knew it wasn&#039 ; t a good sign. They just pulled around me and stopped real quick. I knew it wasn&#039 ; t a good sign. And, where they stopped me at, it was real dark, no light at all. So, they seemed to meet and they said to one another out there, saying, &quot ; What we going to do with this nigger?&quot ; And, the other one said, eventually I heard him say, &quot ; If, we kill him, then what are these other niggers going to think that belong to this Movement?&quot ; So at that point, I said then, this is just it. And when they finally made their suggestion, one of them asked the question, &quot ; If we kill him, then if it beats back to us, then what these others going to think.&quot ; So they finally said, &quot ; Well, we better let him go because if it leads back to us then we are going to have to answer to the call.&quot ; So, they let me go. HUNTLEY: So actually, the card probably saved you that night? HENDRICKS: Yes. I think the card worked in my favor. But sometime God has a way that you don&#039 ; t have to get things done. That&#039 ; s my feeling. That&#039 ; s what I really ended up saying afterwards. HUNTLEY: So you then were one of the guards for Shuttlesworth home and church and I assume other places as well. Can you tell me how that operation was set up? HENDRICKS: The next door neighbor to Rev. Shuttlesworth house had a screened in porch where you could see off the porch, all the way around, and we would sit straight across from the church and we could see on the side and all way on both sides of the church and the front and we had a fence on the back. So, that&#039 ; s where we would sit in. And, we could stay there if it was raining or whatever and be able to see. We were close enough to the church to see anything that goes on. HUNTLEY: Were you armed? HENDRICKS: We had a few shotguns hid out. HUNTLEY: Did you ever have the occasion to have to use any of the guns? HENDRICKS: No. We didn&#039 ; t. We had an occasion where maybe someone might have thought that we had bombs brought there, and the man say he wanted to get into the church so the preacher could pray for him. He had a whole five gallon of dynamite under a rain coat. HUNTLEY: Was this a White man? HENDRICKS: A White male. And when we pursued to find him, find out what he had or check him out, he would never let us get close to him so he finally tried to take out and it ran and it blew about four to six feet in the street out there when he dropped it. HUNTLEY: You were on guard the night that this happened? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you approached him and he wouldn&#039 ; t allow you to get very close to him? HENDRICKS: And then he ran. I believe a fellow named John L. Lewis did the closing in on him, more so. HUNTLEY: I see. HENDRICKS: We called him that, I don&#039 ; t know what his name was. But, all of us called him John L. Lewis, but, he was out there, too. And, so he closed in on him real close and somehow he dropped this dynamite. And it blew the windows out the church and a big hole in the street. HUNTLEY: Were there any other encounters that you had while you were on guard duty, that you remember? HENDRICKS: Well, we had several cases where they would come out there with threats, you know. But you couldn&#039 ; t pursue anything. Our job was to try to stay away from trouble, not make it. HUNTLEY: I know that you were arrested once because you sat on a bus? HENDRICKS: Yes, the first case. HUNTLEY: Can you describe that experience to me? HENDRICKS: I came through town and they were on every corner. HUNTLEY: Who are &quot ; they?&quot ; HENDRICKS: White brothers. White people had congregated on the corner. They had chains and billy clubs and sticks and they said to one another, &quot ; What time Shuttlesworth going to get here.&quot ; That&#039 ; s what they called him. And, I go to the next corner and they was asking for him. So I then turned and went on out to Rev. Shuttlesworth house. And I said to him, &quot ; This is the wrong day for you.&quot ; I said, &quot ; You better give me that pass and let me go to town.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, what about your job?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, the job won&#039 ; t mean as much as your life or whatever those planned. This just ain&#039 ; t the right day for you.&quot ; So, I pursued to go and follow through with whatever he had planned. And what I felt was best to, that I should do rather than, you know, let him walk into that kind of situation. HUNTLEY: And what had he planned for that day that you eventually did? HENDRICKS: What had I planned? HUNTLEY: What had he planned? You went on to do what he had planned for that particular day? HENDRICKS: No. I was planning to go with him anyway. And, after it was seeming they were going to make a problem for him, then I was willing to do whatever was necessary to do on my part. HUNTLEY: Did anyone else go with you? HENDRICKS: Yes, we had like 15 to 20 people. I don&#039 ; t know exact. At least 12. HUNTLEY: How did it actually happen? What did you do to be arrested? HENDRICKS: Well, we went and sat on the bus and the bus driver say, &quot ; Move to the back.&quot ; And we said, &quot ; We were comfortable where we are. I don&#039 ; t see any reason why we should go to the back. We paid our fare and we feel that we are comfortable where we are sitting.&quot ; And we stayed where we were sitting. So, instead of them, I caught a bus going to Ensley, instead of them taking me to Ensley, they took me to the bus terminal and pulled us up in between some more buses there and called the policemen before we left town. They called the dispatcher and they were the ones that ordered them to not go on the route. To take us down to the bus terminal. And, from there, they called the paddy wagon to take us to jail. HUNTLEY: So they arrested all 14 or how ever many there were? HENDRICKS: All those people that were on the bus, that were on the other side of the Black/White board. HUNTLEY: So, how many days did you spend in jail? HENDRICKS: Five days and six nights. But the worst part of it was, they sent up and, then, the judge turned around and said, send them back a day, the last night, sent us back to jail for the respect he had for the other judge and, then, bring us back to court the next day, which I never did understand. HUNTLEY: What do you mean &quot ; the other judge?&quot ; What happened to the other judge.HENDRICKS: The one who sent us had sent us back to jail overnight. And, then, we had to come back to court the next morning before another judge and he released us after that, for some reason, I don&#039 ; t know. HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested at any other time? HENDRICKS: I don&#039 ; t think I was arrested any other time. HUNTLEY: Did you take part in the sit-in out at the airport? HENDRICKS: Well, they didn&#039 ; t arrest us at the airport. At the airport it was a matter of trying to be served as any other citizen in the airport restaurant. And, they refused to serve us for a whole week. So, that day, we set up three groups. The first group would go on when they opened. The second group would come on at 10:00. And, I happened to be on the 10:00 to 12:00. Mamie Brown, Jim Hendricks and Joe Hendricks and I believe Hattie Felder, I think that&#039 ; s right. But, I know Mamie, Joe and three other people. But, instead of them serving us. I think it was a ham sandwich and a drink is what we ordered. It was $1.85. But, the manager came out and instructed them to charge us $5.85 for $1.85 sandwich. So, some of them didn&#039 ; t want to pay it. So, I offered whoever didn&#039 ; t want to pay it, I&#039 ; d pay it if she give us a receipt. So she pursued that she would. And whoever didn&#039 ; t want to pay it, I went on and paid it. And, that was public accommodation, she said. And, she didn&#039 ; t feel like she should serve us and she felt that we were special guests, so she charged us $5.00 extra. So, we paid it and we took it on to court. And, Constance Marley represented that case and she did real well. She really represented us. And, wherever she is now, I can appreciate the way she done it, because she turned and give all of the lawyers that were there too, sit on the case. Every book that was in the library, she asked them to go get it, and then she would turn and give them the book she had. And, then, she went from page to page which protected the public accommodation and she turned to them and give them her book. And she went to them, she said, &quot ; Article VI, Paragraph VII, Page 26.&quot ; And she give the statement through the whole thing without reading any of it. So she really knew what she was doing. HUNTLEY: She knew the law. But, she used that sandwich, that $1.80 sandwich that you paid $5.80 for, you used that as evidence in that case? HENDRICKS: Yes. So, this was I think the best case for the people because it read that no Black or White can be seated in a public building in the State of Alabama. And, that&#039 ; s what they had on as law. Whether the person who ran the restaurant wanted to serve you. They would be in violation of the state law. So this came to the test and we won this. So, this was a big effort, I thought. HUNTLEY: In 1961, we had a group of people called Freedom Riders who started their trip in Washington, D.C. and was headed to New Orleans. And, when, they arrived in Alabama, some things took place. You played a role in that, can you explain that to me? What role did you play? HENDRICKS: After these people had been there for something like a week, or three or four days or something. HUNTLEY: Had been in ... HENDRICKS: In Anniston. HUNTLEY: Anniston, Alabama. HENDRICKS: Yes. And, I felt that they was trapped there. And I consulted the leader about it who was Rev. Shuttlesworth. And he said, if I felt that way or if we felt that way, we should go. He thought somebody should go check on them, that&#039 ; s the way he put it. So we pursued to go there. And those people were vicious, seemed to be mad about something, I don&#039 ; t know what. And they had formed the White people on the street out there to stand over us with guns and intimidate us. HUNTLEY: This is in Anniston? HENDRICKS: In Anniston. HUNTLEY: Just before you get to Anniston, though, how was the decision made that you were going to Anniston and how many people went with you? HENDRICKS: Well, we formed a car pool to go there to pick them up in cars. HUNTLEY: How many cars? HENDRICKS: We had like 15 or more cars. And we went there to pick them up. HUNTLEY: How many people were you going to pick up? HENDRICKS: Well, we carried like one person to a car, not more than two. Because we left space for the people were there, if we could get them to bring them back. So that&#039 ; s the way we went. HUNTLEY: Was there any difficulty in getting them to come back with you? HENDRICKS: We had difficulty out of the sheriff&#039 ; s department. The sheriff&#039 ; s department at that point was on duty at the hospital. They had them in the basement at the hospital. HUNTLEY: So they were not at the bus station, they were at the hospital? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Was it because they had been beaten, had they been treated at the hospital? HENDRICKS: Right. They were downstairs in the basement at the hospital and we couldn&#039 ; t get in there until these sheriffs let us in. And, they made us stop out on the lot before we got to the hospital. And, we had to communicate with them, so I asked the other people to stay back because the tension was so high. And the people were so brutally mad and they had all those guns. So I asked the other people to not go and let me go up and see if I could get them released. So, he finally said to me, &quot ; If you want to take the chance, I wouldn&#039 ; t do anything to help you. I won&#039 ; t protect you even if something would happen to you on this hospital yard. You are on your own.&quot ; HUNTLEY: So in addition to the sheriff&#039 ; s and police that were there, there were other Whites who were mingling in that area? HENDRICKS: Yes. There were other Whites on the street before we got on the lot. They had stopped us and stood over us with all kind of guns. I had a flat and they stood over me the whole time I was fixing my flat. And they ran me out of the service station. They wouldn&#039 ; t let the people in the service station fix it. So, we pursued to go ahead and get my spare out the trunk and fix it that way. And, they just stood there with the guns as if they were out there hunting for us or something, like we were animals or something. HUNTLEY: Birmingham is about 60 miles from Anniston, how did you know the people were in Anniston and stranded? HENDRICKS: Well, it was on the news and by me being active in the Movement, we knew that they were there and he had the location of where they were. HUNTLEY: Now, were these Black people or White people that were stranded in Anniston? HENDRICKS: Black and White. We had even four White ladies in the group. And the men who were with me were actually afraid to let them ride back because it was so much animosity and so much bitterness there. And I just took the initiative to load them in my car, the White ladies, and into my best friend&#039 ; s car, which was Forest Washington. And, we got them back to town. But no one wanted the White ladies in their car. HUNTLEY: Why not? HENDRICKS: Because of the guns and the way the people were acting and the way they was treating them. And, so, that was the reason. And by them being White ladies, in a Black man&#039 ; s car, riding down the street, by these guns and all these people and you know how they feel about that, that was the reason. HUNTLEY: And you had 60 miles of rural route to get between Anniston and Birmingham? HENDRICKS: Right. So they came back to Birmingham. And when I got here I had the same problem. No one wanted to deal with the White ladies. When nobody would take them, I said, &quot ; Well, then all White ladies load back in my car and come and go home with me.&quot ; They hadn&#039 ; t had a bath. They hadn&#039 ; t had anything of that sort. So I taken them home and my wife, I told her to go in there and make a way for them to take a bath and give them some clothes. She give all of them something to put on and change in. They put the clothes on, wore them back home and mailed them back. HUNTLEY: What part of Birmingham did you live in at the time? HENDRICKS: Over in Titusville. Honeysuckle Circle. HUNTLEY: All right. So you brought them to your house? HENDRICKS: Right. HUNTLEY: Were you approached at all by the police when you got into Birmingham? Did they know that you had gone to Anniston and you were coming back with the Freedom Riders with White women in your car? And, did they approach you, or did you have any difficulty once you got back to Birmingham? HENDRICKS: No. I didn&#039 ; t have any difficulty after I got here. Somehow I have been blessed that difficulty would go up to a point and I feel that somehow God has always held it off for some reason. I have never been hurt violently. I have seen everything up to that. But I have never been really hurt. I been pushed. I been through a few things like that, but really, to be struck like I looked and seen them do other people, I&#039 ; ve never been hit. I&#039 ; ve seen them hit other people. HUNTLEY: So you have been rather fortunate in that regard? You&#039 ; ve never been attacked? HENDRICKS: I feel that the prayer I&#039 ; ve prayed and the prayer that I have said, have been answered to that point. I don&#039 ; t feel that it&#039 ; s nothing that I&#039 ; ve done that has been so protective for me. But I feel that outside of me, that somebody was big enough to really get it done through him. And that&#039 ; s my feeling. I don&#039 ; t feel even today that I am credited for nothing that has been done, but only through what I&#039 ; ve been allowed to do as a tool and instrument for Him. And, I&#039 ; ve heard the impact of Dr. King with the same idea. Don&#039 ; t give me the credit. And, if you ever get yourself into it, you&#039 ; ll find that you don&#039 ; t want the credit. I&#039 ; m not here feeling that I ought to have any credit for what happened. I feel that the glory to God, glory to whatever it was bigger than me. Somewhere something happened bigger than me to make it be what it was because I&#039 ; ve been shot at, I&#039 ; ve been missed. I&#039 ; ve been talked about in the death row line and it has been settled before it got to me. The bullet has been turned before it hit me and it somehow I feel that it&#039 ; s just one of those things that somebody did something that had something to do with it more than me. Now, that&#039 ; s my feeling. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in the demonstrations during the &#039 ; 63 marches, between April and May of 1963? HENDRICKS: Yes. I was even out there when we set up the strategy for downtown sit-ins. When they set up that strategy, there was a man sitting out there with overalls on, which wasn&#039 ; t seeming to have anything to say. And he came out and set up the strategy for getting downtown. Everybody go out there and they knocked Fred down with the hose, and everybody go out there. They just turn them over with the hose. So, he&#039 ; s sitting out there without, he wasn&#039 ; t even thinking about anything. He got up and he said, &quot ; Let me help.&quot ; So he stood up. He said, &quot ; All y&#039 ; all line up.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Give me four men over here, four men over here and four men over here. And, all y&#039 ; all ladies get in the middle.&quot ; And when he set it up like that, then they took off. He said, &quot ; Now, y&#039 ; all go on through.&quot ; He said, &quot ; When the water hose hit you, all of you lean this way.&quot ; And when the water hose hit us, we didn&#039 ; t stop walking. Like I said, just people, when they organize their strength against the other person, they went on downtown. HUNTLEY: Who was the man in the overalls? HENDRICKS: I can&#039 ; t think of his name. But, all I know at that point, he had on some overalls and was just sitting there, just an ordinary person. But, that&#039 ; s the way we got downtown. As long as we were single, trying to get downtown, as fast as we get to the water hose, they turn us over. But, in that day, I refused to go to jail because my job was more important out of jail, I felt. I had two cars which people didn&#039 ; t want to be done, carrying those wet children home. And I went as far as the airport. I went as far as Bessemer. I went far as Brighton. I went to all of those places to take these children home after they got wet. And, I felt that that was that day it was more important than going to jail. Because a lot of us wouldn&#039 ; t want a wet, wet child, five or six of them in their car wet. But, service, to me, has more to do than a car. HUNTLEY: So you didn&#039 ; t mind the children getting in your car and wetting your seats up? This was a service that was necessary at the time. So whatever was necessary that&#039 ; s what you did. Your family was intimately involved in the Movement. HENDRICKS: My whole family was involved. My oldest daughter, I guess she&#039 ; s already been here for an interview. She went to jail. My wife was secretary for the Movement. My baby was in line for the jail, but they begged us to bring the oldest one back home after she went, so that saved the baby so I was going to take her to jail the next time I went. But, the whole house was in motion to go. I never felt more better. I didn&#039 ; t know how my wife was going to take it, losing my job and losing all I had. But she supported. HUNTLEY: Did you ever lose your job? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: You did lose your job at Jim Dandy&#039 ; s? HENDRICKS: Yes. But, I regained it. I feel like if you ever read the story of Job, everything that has been taken from me or everything I thought was going down the drain, has been given back to me. So, I don&#039 ; t feel like I was a loser. I feel like there is more of this that all of us should find to do until we balance out. I even feel today that we could regain our community back. HUNTLEY: Well, tell me, just briefly about the circumstances of you losing your job? Why did you lose your job? HENDRICKS: Well, when I got involved with that I got in the paper. And, the person who I worked for was White. And, he was with his White brothers. He said, they said that they didn&#039 ; t want to work with me. So, he said to me that their job was more important to them than my one job. So he had to let me go because nobody who was White wanted to work with me. So he pursued to take me in the office and we sat there and talked. And we kind of versed like this. He said to me that &quot ; I got to run this job with these people.&quot ; And I said to him that, &quot ; If you run this job, aren&#039 ; t you supposed to make decisions?&quot ; He says, &quot ; Yes.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m confused.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Why are you confused?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m confused because you make decisions and you are telling me about who works on the job when it&#039 ; s time for you to make a decision. And it&#039 ; s not based on what they think. So, I would like for you to make a decision. HUNTLEY: And, he made the decision? HENDRICKS: I rode the bus. I was trying to go to Ensley and I end up in jail. He said to me then, &quot ; What you doing on the bus?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, I was going to Ensley and I end up in jail.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, I don&#039 ; t feel that you should have rode the bus unless you rode it where you supposed to have rode it at.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I rode it where I was supposed to. I paid my fare and I just got on there, I was comfortable and sat down.&quot ; But I was confused. I said, &quot ; Now, you feel that I should be fired and you got people who is on this job who have stole from the company, you didn&#039 ; t fire them.&quot ; I say, &quot ; You got people on this job who have killed and been convicted for murder, you didn&#039 ; t fire them.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Why is it that you are firing me for riding a bus and you can&#039 ; t fire the people who stole from the company and who have killed people?&quot ; So he said to me then, &quot ; You were off sick wasn&#039 ; t you?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Yes.&quot ; &quot ; And you rode the bus?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Yes, well you go back to the doctor and come back to work tomorrow.&quot ; So he haven&#039 ; t answered me yet. I&#039 ; m still waiting on an answer. HUNTLEY: So he didn&#039 ; t fire you then? HENDRICKS: He did. But when I asked him the question rather than an answer it seem like he give me my job back. HUNTLEY: So you talked him back into it. Those were some very interesting pieces. Is there anything else that you would like to add that we may not have covered that relates to the Movement? HENDRICKS: I think that the area of success has been the Movement. And I think that all of us as Blacks should look at the jobs that we have and try to stay within the area of where we are, not retreat to become so complacent that we feel that this automatically happened. We should always be mindful of what are and where we are. And we don&#039 ; t have anything to lose. We only ask for what we own because it rightfully belongs to us and that is my feeling. That has always been my feeling. We only ask the people to move over and give us -- as they call us at night, &quot ; What you niggers want now?&quot ; I would always answer them by saying, &quot ; We want the same thing you all want.&quot ; &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; ll be over there. Come on and I always entertain my guests.&quot ; And this is the way I would put them when they called me at 3:00 in the morning, 2:00 at night. I feel that the people should feel the same way now. We only are trying to claim what we rightfully own. We are not trying to claim anything that belongs to anybody else. HUNTLEY: They attempted to intimidate you, to scare you so that you would leave the Movement and your advances. HENDRICKS: Oh, yes. I had two or three cars come and watch me cut grass. I had White ladies to call me and try to get me out at 2:00 and 3:00 in the morning. I&#039 ; ve had all this. All these good things happen. It&#039 ; s just one of those things, you have to be aware. HUNTLEY: Mr. Hendricks I want to thank you for coming and taking your time out of your busy schedule to talk with us today. And we will definitely be in touch with you in very short order. We will make copies of this and have you to review them. Thank you for coming. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JHendricks1995.xml JHendricks1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Joe Hendricks Description An account of the resource Joe Hendricks discusses being active in the Movement with Rev. Shuttlesworth, the NAACP and the ACMHR. He was arrested during a bus sit-in and helped integrate the Birmingham Airport. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950623H Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Birmingham-Shuttlesworth International Airport (Ala.) Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-06-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/4d6c67249fd002f5659543da3fe4821c.png bbe55313835aedde5991370b736be463 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joel S. Boykin Jr. OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JBoykin2001.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Draft--United States OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 March 22, 2001 Joel S. Boykin Jr. Interviewed on March 22, 2001 20010322B 0:35:11 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) Office of Economic Opportunity Draft--United States Joel S. Boykin Jr. Horace Huntley Oral History 1:|23(9)|50(3)|81(8)|118(8)|150(10)|173(5)|195(10)|210(2)|232(15)|265(7)|285(4)|300(12)|312(10)|329(1)|352(16)|367(2)|380(13)|388(9)|405(19)|429(2)|445(5)|457(2)|463(12)|471(15)|487(1)|504(2)|517(5)|533(11)|551(5)|564(14)|581(4)|597(12)|606(7)|617(4)|649(5) 0 https://youtu.be/tsdVvOSnctw YouTube video English 0 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Dr. Joel Boykin with the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I'm Dr. Horace Huntley, today we're at the Civil Rights Institute, and today's date is March 22, 2001. I want to thank you Dr. Boykin taking the time out of your busy schedule and welcome to the institute. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 33.5161, -86.8145 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 29 Family Background Let me just start by asking you some general questions ; were you born in Birmingham? Dr. Joel Boykin goes into his family's education, where they were from, how many siblings he had, and how they came to be in Birmingham where he was born. Community gardens ; County Schools ; Dentistry--Practice ; Gardens ; Parents ; Sibling ; Teacher Alabama State University ; Bessemer (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Holly Springs (Miss.) ; Livingston (Ala.) ; Memphis (Tenn.) ; New Orleans (La.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Rust College ; Walden University (Nashville, Tenn.). Meharry Medical Department 263 Early Education- Tuggle Elementary Oh okay. Now where did you start first grade? Dr. Joel Boykin discusses his time going to Tuggle Elementary school, and how at the time they had dormitories that kids from out of town could stay in while attending. African American Schools ; Black owned ; Dormitory life Enon Ridge School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Eufaula (Ala.) ; Great Depression ; Masonic Temple ; Tuggle Elementary (Birmingham, Ala.) 389 Early Education- Parker High School So when you left Tuggle School, where did you go? Dr. Joel Boykin talks of his time going to Parker High School and how coming from a doctors son he had higher standards than the school was teaching. Illiteracy ; Literacy ; Superintendents ; Teaching Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 495 College and Military Service Did you live on Fountain Heights? Dr. Joel Boykin discusses started college at Morehouse, then being drafted, and afterwards going back to school. Draft--United States ; Military service, Voluntary--United States ; Pretty Girls Camp Lee (Va.) ; Central Tennessee College. Meharry Dental Department ; Fort Benning (Ga.) ; Fountain Heights (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Military camps--California ; Military--Florida ; Military--Guam ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; Tuskegee Institute 805 Coming Back to Birmingham and Teaching Well before yet that, what-when you left Morehouse, did you come back to Birmingham? Dr. Joel Boykin explains how when he got out of school he taught but also how people urged him to go back to get a higher education. Education, Higher--United States--Planning ; Graduate School Birmingham (Ala.) ; Bullock County (Ala.) ; Lincoln (Ala.) ; Miles Community College ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; St. Clair County (Ala.) 947 Bombing Of Father's Home in Fountain Heights Yeah, so I ended up going out to(?). After the fall I got into Meharry, got a master degree in science at Atlanta University, but I was determined I was going to get-I was through with the school system. Because there it was too many little(?) of all kinds, it's going to be this way or no way. I didn't see that as being the right way, even in Bullock county down there, it was called then, they bombed my father's house that particular year, 1950, April of '50- Dr. Joel Boykin talks about the time his father's house got bombed in Fountain Hills area of Birmingham, Alabama. Bombings--Alabama ; Newspaper reading ; Rebuilding Bullock County (Ala.) ; Fountain Hills (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Herald Printing Company ; Meharry Medical College. School of Dentistry ; Siapan, Guam 1138 Dental School Did you go into dentistry because of your father? Dr. Joel Boykin mentions about his time going to school for Denistry, and how there were more black people in the medical profession than there were in the legal profession. African American Dentist ; Black Dentist ; Black professions ; Father's Footsteps ; Med school Alabama ; Bessemer (Ala.) ; Meharry Medical College. School of Dentistry ; Tennessee 1301 Starting in the Movement When you got back here in 1957, that is in the heat of things ; what was happening when you get back? When Shuttlesworth took his children to Phillips High School. Dr. Joel Boykin talks about being a part of the movement and discussing Fred Shuttlesworth's role. African Americans--Segregation ; Meetings ; Non-violent protest 16th Street Baptist Church, Birmingham, Ala. ; Bull Connor--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham, Ala. ; Phillips High School-- Birmingham, Ala. ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1548 Participation in Demonstrations Not then, okay, did you ever participate in the demonstrations? Dr. Joel Boykin discusses his role in the demonstrations by bailing people out of jail who had gotten arrested by the police for protesting. Bail Bondsmen ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; jail ; property ; Shotguns Birmingham News ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1739 Armed Guards During Nonviolent Protest That's another question people ask about the nonviolent movement, that I've talked to people and they were always those that stood guard at the various homes and churches and were armed, did you have any knowledge of that? Dr. Joel Boykin Talks about having armed guards stand at some churches and houses due to unwanted threats from people in the community who were trying to stop their nonviolent movements. Armed Forces--Safety measures ; Non-Violent Movements Dynamite Hill ; The Ku Klux Klan 1860 Wife's Involvement in The Movement You've married, had a family- Dr. Joel Boykin explains his wife's role as a community organizer by being the director of OEO, as well as helping to start the offices of Economic Opportunity, and being head of social work. Community Organizer ; Family Involvement ; Social Worker ; Wife Office of Economic Opportunity 1973 Relationship With Martin Luther King Jr. As Martin Luther King came in and out of town, you say you would see him periodically ; did you every have any relations with-? Dr. Joel Boykin mentions his relationship with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr, by being from the same school of thought. All (Philosophy) ; Follower Ghandi ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 2080 Interview Conclusion Well you've been very helpful, I certainly appreciated you taking time out of your schedule to come and sit and talk with us and you've clarified some things for me today. Video Joel S. Boykin Jr. discusses participating in the Movement after attending Morehouse and dental school. Dr. Boykin bailed demonstrators out of jail while his wife directed the Office of Economic Opportunity. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Dr. Joel Boykin with the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I&#039 ; m Dr. Horace Huntley, today we&#039 ; re at the Civil Rights Institute, and today&#039 ; s date is March 22, 2001. I want to thank you Dr. Boykin taking the time out of your busy schedule and welcome to the institute. BOYKIN: Thank you, thank you. HUNTLEY: Let me just start by asking you some general questions ; were you born in Birmingham? BOYKIN: I was born right here in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Were you really? BOYKIN: Yes indeed, on 8th Ave, where the projects exist now, projects and I was between say, they called that Joseph St, which was actually 3rd St. And between third and second street across from Palms, there was a Palms Barbeque place--. HUNTLEY: Palms Barbeque and the theater- BOYKIN: That is correct, well the theater wasn&#039 ; t there. HUNTLEY: Wasn&#039 ; t there at that time? BOYKIN: It was industrial high school at that time and the high school house where I was born. They used to have a garden there and part of the training of the students there, they kept the garden. The garden was in our backyard. HUNTLEY: Is that right? BOYKIN: One of the superintendents, Dr. Goodson was a student at that time and he used to come down and I&#039 ; d be out there in the back yard with my little ball and whatnot and we did a garden there, it was a community garden, it was a school garden. HUNTLEY: What did you grow? BOYKIN: Everything, all vegetables, greens, tomatoes- HUNTLEY: A community garden- BOYKIN: Like that, that was part of the high school project. HUNTLEY: Is that right? Were your parents from Birmingham? BOYKIN: My father went to school here in Birmingham. In grade school, he came up here from Livingston, Alabama. He had a twin sister and they lived in Birmingham, attended Slater school. HUNTLEY: So you had deep roots here. BOYKIN: Yes, and he was in the second graduating class that is now Parker High, it was something else that I don&#039 ; t know, it wasn&#039 ; t- HUNTLEY: Industrial? BOYKIN: Probably, maybe they&#039 ; ve began it Industrial. HUNTLEY: Right, right. BOYKIN: There were two teachers there, Mrs. Kennedy and Mr. Parker, which was it. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have? BOYKIN: I had one sister. HUNTLEY: One sister, is she older? BOYKIN: Four years younger. HUNTLEY: Four(?) years younger, okay. And what kind of education did your parents have? BOYKIN: My father was a dentist, he became a dentist and he graduated in 1911, from Meharry. HUNTLEY: From Meharry? BOYKIN: Matter of fact we initially- Walden University. Got his license in 1912. HUNTLEY: Is that right? BOYKIN: Yes. HUNTLEY: So you followed in his footsteps? BOYKIN: Yes, certainly so. HUNTLEY: Well that&#039 ; s great, what about your mother? BOYKIN: She was a graduate of Rust College in Mississippi, Holly Springs, and Mississippi, that&#039 ; s near the Tennessee border, about 20 miles from Memphis- HUNTLEY: Right- BOYKIN: Yeah, they have two colleges there, Rust and MI, my grandfather moved there from New Orleans to Mississippi because he had four girls. Had to get them an education- HUNTLEY: Is that right? BOYKIN: On the main drag, everybody had to pass by the house going to the school, all the teachers and stuff and they were walking or riding mules and stuff like so- HUNTLEY: Is that right? BOYKIN: Yeah. HUNTLEY: Yeah, well- BOYKIN: And she finished in &#039 ; 24. HUNTLEY: In &#039 ; 24? BOYKIN: Yes and also attended Alabama State too­ HUNTLEY: So did she teach? BOYKIN: She taught here, she retired from the County School System. HUNTLEY: What school did she teach? BOYKIN: Woodard was the last- HUNTLEY: Okay, down towards Bessemer. BOYKIN: That&#039 ; s right, that&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Good school. BOYKIN: So she retired from there. HUNTLEY: Oh okay. Now where did you start first grade? BOYKIN: I started first grade at Tuggle, Enon Ridge at that time, it was called Enon Ridge School. HUNTLEY: Enon Ridge School. BOYKIN: Enon Ridge School and it only went to the sixth grade at that time. But while there they added two more grades, eight grade. HUNTLEY: Yeah, now I&#039 ; ve heard a lot about Tuggle School, what do you remember about Tuggle the most? BOYKIN: Carrie A. Tuggle founded Tuggle School, black-owned, Mrs. Simpleton, Mrs. Bethune, so she had that thing going in there, dormitory life, when I first went to Tuggle, Enon Ridge there was students there. HUNTLEY: Is that right? BOYKIN: The band was playing. HUNTLEY: You mean they had dormitories? BOYKIN: Dormitories, that&#039 ; s right, it was Tuggle Institute­ HUNTLEY: So students would come in from outside of town? BOYKIN: Yes, they lived there. Whether they were local or what­ HUNTLEY: But they were boarded right there on campus- BOYKIN: Football teams, I would say about-we lived in the Tuggle home shortly after she passed. Soon as the Depression hit, my parents had to- we moved around quite a bit, he lost his house and so we did quite a bit moving. One of the moves were in the Tuggle home, home in Enon Ridge, I guess I must have been about four or five years old. HUNTLEY: So those Depression days, not only affect those at the bottom rungs, it affected professionals as well? BOYKIN: Everybody, everybody couldn&#039 ; t pay, so that- he was in the Masonic Temple for years until he couldn&#039 ; t hold on so he went on down to Eufaula, Alabama. HUNTLEY: So he actually moved to practice in Eufaula? BOYKIN: That&#039 ; s correct, that&#039 ; s correct. HUNTLEY: So when you left Tuggle School, where did you go? BOYKIN: Parker. I went to Parker, at that time when we were living on Ave, we walked to Parker every morning. HUNTLEY: What was Parker like? BOYKIN: Parker was fantastic. It was- . HUNTLEY: What made it- ? BOYKIN: The teachers ; people had a lot more interest then. Coming from being Dr. Boykin&#039 ; s son, I guess sometimes they expected more from you and I could read, write and most of the kids- half of the class couldn&#039 ; t read or write. Even then, it was the system you had to pass this child right on regardless- to make room for someone else because we don&#039 ; t have funds to take care of that kind of thing. That was what I later found out after I taught for a while (?) years but unfortunately wouldn&#039 ; t give us any primitive jobs here. I hated at that time because I think of the people who in charge, I&#039 ; m talking about, county superintendents, Dr. Hayes and a guy I think they call him-. HUNTLEY: E. Paul Jones? BOYKIN: I think- he was the county man. HUNTLEY: Right. BOYKIN: He lives on the same street that I live on. HUNTLEY: Okay. BOYKIN: They wouldn&#039 ; t hire us, but anybody, Dr. Harris and the other fellow, Benny Harris, Jesse Ray Harris was the nephew. HUNTLEY: Did you live on Fountain Heights? BOYKIN: Yes. HUNTLEY: You lived in Fountain Heights? BOYKIN: Yes, at that time, certainly so. By that time, I had gone in the service and out. I had been at Morehouse A couple year and was drafted out of there and- HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to go to Morehouse? BOYKIN: All of buddies were going over there practically, I really thought more of going to Tuskegee that was a big school. It sounded great to me you know the name sounded good. I didn&#039 ; t know one thing nor from school from another, but you followed your game, the boys went over there and luckily I made the right decision. HUNTLEY: So you went to Morehouse and then you were actually drafted out of Morehouse? BOYKIN: Yeah. HUNTLEY: Is that right? BOYKIN: Yeah. HUNTLEY: And how long did you spend in the service? BOYKIN: About 18-19 months- HUNTLEY: --Where--? BOYKIN: --Went in in&#039 ; 45 and- . HUNTLEY: --Where-- ? BOYKIN: Fort Benning, Camp Lee, down in Florida, out to California and in the Pacific, Sampan, Guam-. HUNTLEY: Was the war about over by the time you- ? BOYKIN: Just about over yeah, time I got over there, they dropped the bomb, they dropped (?), so there was nothing there but prisons at that time, some were still up in the mountains, but- HUNTLEY: What was that transition like from college to the military? BOYKIN: It was awful, I didn&#039 ; t want to be there, I didn&#039 ; t want to shoot at anyone, and I didn&#039 ; t want anybody shooting at me. HUNTLEY: I understand that. BOYKIN: I really didn&#039 ; t want to go, did everything I could to avoid it, until finally one of the ladies over at the-- . HUNTLEY: Recruiting station- ? BOYKIN: Recruiting station, she said, &#039 ; &#039 ; Now, if you move again, we&#039 ; re going to put you in jail.&quot ; So, it&#039 ; s the matter of jail or going into the service. HUNTLEY: So you spent those 18 months and then what did you do after? BOYKIN: Well I got out in say November of &#039 ; 46 and I went back to school in January &#039 ; 47 and summer school and I finished in &#039 ; 48 and came out on time. The man upstairs was in my comer. HUNTLEY: Oh yeah. BOYKIN: Because that was the most difficult situation I believe I ever encountered, it was all on account of me, I didn&#039 ; t want to read, I wanted to be out there in the streets doing this and doing that, but I got behind, it was rough getting out. But fortunately there are so many wonderful students over there. Those guys have some excellent minds. All you&#039 ; re surrounded by them and it was almost impossible not to get out because everybody-Bob was in the class. HUNTLEY: You were in a class with (?)? BOYKIN: Yeah, he finished with me, but I started before him­ HUNTLEY: Did you know him personally? BOYKIN: I met him when he was a freshman, because he came in the restaurant with one of the prettiest girls I have ever seen. The little restaurant, we ate something... where everybody hung out, he and another one of my classmates lived in the city and is name was Caleb, he brought them all to school in his car and that&#039 ; s how I met Margaret. &quot ; Move over!&quot ; (Both laugh) I never--other than that, I was a sophomore, he was a freshman big time, by the time I came back and he was a senior, a junior or something, but I was tied up in getting with my thing, so but, guess they knew us better than we knew them. You know you all the upperclassmen. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right, that&#039 ; s right. BOYKIN: So I didn&#039 ; t really see him again until I was up in Meharry, this was after the bus sit-in, on the speaking engagement and whatnot and as soon as I walked down to the greeting, &quot ; Hey Joe&quot ; (both laugh). I would see him from time to time when he was here all the time, but not knowing that they were so good, until the last day of the-everything was breaking loose. HUNTLEY: Well before yet that, what- when you left Morehouse, did you come back to Birmingham? BOYKIN: When I left Morehouse, yes, I came back to Birmingham, that was the summer of &#039 ; 48- HUNTLEY: And what did you do, did you--? BOYKIN: And summer &#039 ; 48, I was told that, Joe is you want to get a job, you must go back to school. I say, wait a minute, I&#039 ; m already educated, what are you talking about, I&#039 ; ve got a BS degree from Morehouse and you&#039 ; re telling me I gotta go back to school, yeah and we did a bunch of us, Dr. Montgomery, Dr. Harris, all of us had to go out to Miles that summer to take some education, taking all this to teach. So that&#039 ; s what happened there- HUNTLEY: So you went out to Miles that summer- BOYKIN: That summer- HUNTLEY: And then you started teaching that fall? BOYKIN: That fall, yeah. HUNTLEY: Where did you first work? BOYKIN: Supply teaching down at Parker, Lincoln, wherever they would call. HUNTLEY: How did you like that, to teach? BOYKIN: That was- I needed the money (both laugh). Any kind of job. HUNTLEY: Right. BOYKIN: So as far as having been carried away with it, not really, until I got a regular job, Bob Johnson, who was a principal down at Parker that time, he got me a job in St. Clair county, I was there for about three or four months, it must have been &#039 ; 49, the spring session of &#039 ; 49. HUNTLEY: So how long did you teach? BOYKIN: I stayed there until the next spring session and couldn&#039 ; t get a regular job teaching until &#039 ; 50, the beginning of 1950 and that was down in Bullock County and I stayed there for a semester and things happened then and said, &#039 ; &#039 ; No, this won&#039 ; t do.&quot ; So it was at that time, I was going to be the boss. I&#039 ; m going back to get a PhD, some kind of D ; you couldn&#039 ; t give me little bit more control- HUNTLEY: Over your life- BOYKIN: Yeah, so I ended up going out to(?). After the fall I got into Meharry, got a master&#039 ; s degree in science at Atlanta University, but I was determined I was going to get- I was through with the school system. Because there it was too many little(?) of all kinds, it&#039 ; s going to be this way or no way. I didn&#039 ; t see that as being the right way, even in Bullock county down there, it was called then, they bombed my father&#039 ; s house that particular year, 1950, April of &#039 ; 50- HUNTLEY: Here? BOYKIN: Here, in Fountain Heights, he was in there, I wrote him a letter, the newspaper people were asking were we wanting to rebuild it, because we have a hard time getting insurance. So I wrote, if I can fight over there in Siapan, Guam, yeah we can do it right here too. And they put it on the front page of the paper, the Post Herald at that time and this superintendent sent for me, took me out of class, said the genius supervisor who was a black lady Jessie Oliver down, to pick me up by taking me out of the school room and bring me way downtown to the city, to his office, to answer to this- on the front page of the--and I thought- I didn&#039 ; t know why she said letter initially and I said, &quot ; She&#039 ; s been reading my mail.&quot ; I didn&#039 ; t know and then she threw the paper in my lap and I read, I say, &quot ; Well I&#039 ; ll be doggone.&quot ; I prepared to say bye bye, but I told them, I said, &quot ; Boykin, you know didn&#039 ; t mean what you said about this.&quot ; I&#039 ; ve enjoyed this ; I&#039 ; ve really enjoyed working with you in this school system.&quot ; &quot ; I think you&#039 ; re doing an excellent job.&quot ; I said, &quot ; But in regards to that letter, I meant everything I said.&quot ; &quot ; And I&#039 ; m sure you feel the same way if someone was trying to do something to you on the sly.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; The people downtown wanted to ask about this mess, I just want you to be careful.&quot ; In fact, they sent... before the year was that summer, asked me to come back and be principal of the school. HUNTLEY: Is that right, so you were actually prepared to say, it&#039 ; s yours, it created a problem for you. BOYKIN: That&#039 ; s right- HUNTLEY: But that didn&#039 ; t happen. BOYKIN: But I didn&#039 ; t go back in. I went on to school because it&#039 ; s too much of a hassle. HUNTLEY: Did you go into dentistry because of your father? BOYKIN: Yeah, I was going to dental school, med school, I didn&#039 ; t make any difference which one. HUNTLEY: And I&#039 ; m sure he encouraged you? BOYKIN: Well naturally, I wasn&#039 ; t going to stop, he didn&#039 ; t have to do much encouraging for me, and I couldn&#039 ; t stand the little jobs that I had, grocery boy, waiting tables, all of that, working at railway express, all kinds of little odd jobs. HUNTLEY: So you spent the four years at Meharry and then- ? BOYKIN: Then I interned a year, stayed up there a little longer, interned a year, because I knew I was corning back, it was some things that I wanted to do and I didn&#039 ; t want to necessarily sent everything to somebody else when I doing another year and get a little bit more into it. HUNTLEY: So did you join your father when you came--? BOYKIN: No, I went directly to the private practice. HUNTLEY: How many black dentists were there in town? BOYKIN: At that time, Dr. Elliot, Dr. James (?), Dr. (?)­ HUNTLEY: Jefferson? BOYKIN: Jefferson, Dr. Howard, Mixon, Claiborn, Shakespeare, Thompson, and Dr. Dowdell, Dr. Davis out in Bessemer, that was about it. HUNTLEY: And that was in &#039 ; 54-&#039 ; 55? BOYKIN: That was &#039 ; 57. HUNTLEY: &#039 ; 57, okay. So unlike the legal profession, in the medical profession, there were several black professions. BOYKIN: The legal profession, there was so few that whenever we have our affairs, we invited them to participate with us, because there were a few more physicians, but so many affairs, we combined and do it together. On several occasions, we&#039 ; d say, there are few of us, that time we had conventions in the state and practically every physicians in the state, in the state of Alabama, Tennessee--. HUNTLEY: When you got back here in 1957, that is in the heat of things ; what was happening when you get back? When Shuttlesworth took his children to Phillips High School. BOYKIN: It was active, nobody wanted to be--but Fred had his own ideas about how this thing should be done and Fred proved me right. See a lot of people my daddy&#039 ; s age, that group, Agee, even Emory O. Emory O was as bad as anybody that I&#039 ; ve ever seen when it came to confronting segregation. Talking about it like it was, made Bull Connor blow his top. Some of the responses that bull would come out with-to be associated with Fred was like--didn&#039 ; t have any problems with Fred because I had an attitude anyway, I&#039 ; m ready, put it- but I think you have to be really called into that kind of thing, to be that dedicated, to look death square in the face, like, that what he was facing every time. He&#039 ; s been called, the man upstairs- this is your job Fred, this is it and he didn&#039 ; t shirk away from it, but you have to be calm for something like that to go ahead and fight somebody with no weapon and that was not my calling because I would in fact start shooting whatever, I&#039 ; ve got to defend me, but they- no defense, turn the other cheek. I would tell him, I said, &quot ; Somebody&#039 ; s got to do.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Did you ever attend any of the meetings? BOYKIN: Oh yes, oh yes. HUNTLEY: How would you describe a mass meeting, what was a mass meeting like? BOYKIN: There were energy-filled services and whatnot, we&#039 ; re already complaining about buses, this, we&#039 ; re spending our money and we don&#039 ; t get this and but I was saying they brought those things to get the--that was constantly in front, but how are we gonna move out from under where we are. These are our rights, we&#039 ; re human, we&#039 ; re going to do this and we&#039 ; re going to do that, just want to take this thing. The mass meeting started at a time when everybody was just about tired and just ready to die, whatever it takes and there were a lot of people that kept bringing the crowds began to increase. But there are a lot of people who said, no there&#039 ; s no point, people with the church there. I said, &quot ; Listen, we&#039 ; re fighting this thing the wrong way.&quot ; But there was no other way, we tried, every time we said it, they put it off, and they would go back to the same kind of tactics- HUNTLEY: Even people at 16th street in opposition to Fred- BOYKIN: Oh yeah, stopping and going down there and whatnot, I wouldn&#039 ; t a church member there other than me. HUNTLEY: You remember 16th street? BOYKIN: The deacon right, now? Not then. HUNTLEY: Not then, okay, did you ever participate in the demonstrations? BOYKIN: Demonstrations, yeah, yeah, demonstrations, into the point that, not out marching because we were, I&#039 ; ve talked with Wyatt Walker, after running into him, Gaston was (?) brother Ha (?), said &quot ; Wyatt, what can I do?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m ready to go to jail you know.&quot ; He said, &quot ; No, that wouldn&#039 ; t help us like this so to tell you what you do, we need you all to stay back here to take care of us.&quot ; &quot ; If we get hit in the head, shot up, whatever it is, so you get us out of jail, he said, &quot ; Well I tell you what, can you get them together, because the newspaper here, the Birmingham News trying to show that we&#039 ; re not in accord with Fred, we support Shores-.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Talking about the profession? BOYKIN: Yeah, we support Shores and Gaston or something like that, that was not true, it was not true. HUNTLEY: So in other words they were attempting to divide­ BOYKIN: The news crew, the media was terrible- HUNTLEY: But that was not true- BOYKIN: That was not true, he said, &quot ; Rev, it&#039 ; s not your, this is not mine 10:00 in the morning, he says, &quot ; I tell what you do, if you can get them together&quot ; I said, &quot ; Okay, come out to my office, this evening.&quot ; He say, &quot ; 3:00.&quot ; Surprised, I got off the phone and got every physician, every dentist showed up at my office. That day they came together and we talked we closed up property and we made wide declarations of support and concern which is published in the paper, I took it down to the Birmingham News and they thought that they were going to able edit and do what they want, we say, no we want this just like it is. And it cost me about $500. And put up bonds, money- HUNTLEY: So this is to get people out of jail? BOYKIN: Out of jail, that&#039 ; s right, property bond. HUNTLEY: Did anybody lose his or her property as a result of-? BOYKIN: No. HUNTLEY: See there was always would be a concern. BOYKIN: Because someone else came up with some more money, maybe, as always that always is a concern, but you can see, if we would do that, it&#039 ; s time to die. So that was the professional support we had- so whether it was evident to us or not. There were whole lots of them- we were riding around in cars with shotguns. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s another question people ask about the nonviolent movement, that I&#039 ; ve talked to people and they were always those that stood guard at the various homes and churches and were armed, did you have any knowledge of that? BOYKIN: Yeah, yes, you couldn&#039 ; t believe it, I&#039 ; m sitting on my own porch with a shotgun, we were riding around in the car with shotgun, there were no knowledge of it and things happen that a lot of us don&#039 ; t know about that- when somebody reported things when these people began to attack and they were met with force. HUNTLEY: There were times- BOYKIN: Yes and at least one, I don&#039 ; t know how many, center street for that matter. There were people coming into- the Klan coming into the communities don&#039 ; t do this and that, I&#039 ; m not sure that all of them got out. HUNTLEY: But that- took place, see that&#039 ; s what I wanted to mention because--whole story. BOYKIN: Afraid and all that kind of-. no, no. HUNTLEY: So you actually know firsthand that that took place­ BOYKIN: Yes sir. HUNTLEY: On dynamite hill, but here that kind of information is so important we only get half of the story and in order to the whole story, you have to have those stories. And other folk like yourself who were there on the scene and knowledgeable. Are there any other things that took place during the time that you like to share with us before we conclude? BOYKIN: I don&#039 ; t know. HUNTLEY: You&#039 ; ve married, had a family- BOYKIN: Yes, yes, oh yeah, my first wife, she can give you a lot of information, but you got to go down and see her, she&#039 ; s(?). She was the director of the OEO period, had just started offices of economics of opportunity and she was head of the social work, community and people, which was community organization. So she helped these people sit up and do things that they didn&#039 ; t know how to do. HUNTLEY: So she&#039 ; s an organizer? BOYKIN: Oh yeah, very much so, very much so. HUNTLEY: So did she help during that time? BOYKIN: She set up that whole office, she was the second director. That time I think she was making a big salary at that time about $19,000 or $20,000 a year, which was big amount at that time. The average- maybe teachers, principals, she John was the director and she was second and about a year later, she moved onto something else used to work for her, Charles. She was real in that kind of thing because (?) Washington would come and ask her for something and she&#039 ; d know what to do. HUNTLEY: As Martin Luther King came in and out of town, you say you would see him periodically ; did you every have any relations with- ?BOYKIN: Yes- HUNTLEY: As a result of your being one of the leaders in the professional area? BOYKIN: Oh the last time I actually talked to Martin, he was getting ready to go upstairs I said, &quot ; What&#039 ; s happening now, good gracious.&quot ; I say, &quot ; It&#039 ; s going on.&quot ; He says, &quot ; Joey, you&#039 ; re right.&quot ; He says, &quot ; Right now I got to follow the people......follower.&quot ; HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s interesting, that&#039 ; s really interesting- BOYKIN: Following, you got that right, all these kids up here. And I am talking-but he was busy and I know what he&#039 ; s doing and he knows what I&#039 ; m doing we came from the same school. I hear buck bennet talks, every time I hear Martin I thought I was listening to Dr. Mayes. HUNTLEY: Yeah, yeah, same thing. BOYKIN: Repeating the same thing, he could talk the talk, this Gandhi philosophy all this kind of thing. I couldn&#039 ; t done all of that and they preached all these wonderful sermons, we had to listen to so we- HUNTLEY: What you call it, buck? BOYKIN: Buck Benny. HUNTLEY: Buck Benny? BOYKIN: Yeah buck Benny, we called him buck Benny. HUNTLEY: Well you&#039 ; ve been very helpful, I certainly appreciated you taking time out of your schedule to come and sit and talk with us and you&#039 ; ve clarified some things for me today. BOYKIN: Okay. HUNTLEY: It was very interesting. BOYKIN: If can be of any assistance, a lot of things I probably forgot-. HUNTLEY: Well all- there may sometimes when we can. get together and sit down again. BOYKIN: Right. I think you can come over my house sometimes. HUNTLEY: Okay I&#039 ; d love to, alright, thank you. BOYKIN: Give you some more. HUNTLEY: Okay. BOYKIN: Okay. HUNTLEY: Appreciate it very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JBoykin2001.xml JBoykin2001.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Joel S. Boykin Jr. Description An account of the resource Joel S. Boykin Jr. discusses participating in the Movement after attending Morehouse and dental school. Dr. Boykin bailed demonstrators out of jail while his wife directed the Office of Economic Opportunity. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 20010322B Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) Office of Economic Opportunity Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2001-03-22 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/bc72c091b06e74752b9b1cf6078dfbda.png 55753fb063bee00e70517219907981d3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Johnnie Cunningham OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JCunningham2008.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Howard, Asbury OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 November 19, 2008 Johnnie Cunningham 20081119C 0:59:16 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Voter registration UAB Medical Center Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Howard, Asbury Johnnie Cunningham Horace Huntley Video 1:|18(11)|45(6)|62(14)|74(5)|85(13)|100(12)|117(8)|129(13)|139(12)|158(9)|177(9)|187(10)|207(2)|221(8)|240(7)|256(5)|275(2)|286(11)|303(13)|328(12)|337(12)|351(10)|366(1)|386(13)|410(12)|424(13)|442(4)|465(1)|481(2)|501(7)|519(7)|537(6)|549(8)|565(3)|575(12)|582(14)|591(14)|606(3)|615(9)|619(7)|630(13)|644(1)|656(12)|667(4)|680(9)|694(13)|708(7)|730(4)|740(2)|765(9)|778(2)|803(8)|814(15)|830(16)|845(5)|865(5)|875(17)|894(3)|915(4) 0 https://youtu.be/vvTJ0GJz_p0 YouTube video English 2 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Ms. Johnnie Cunningham for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Johnnie Cunningham is introduced Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Cunningham, Johnnie African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 26 Family Background Were you born in Birmingham or in Bessemer? Cunningham states that she was born in Bessemer, Alabama and was raised by her grandparents ; her mother died at the age of 20, when Cunningham was 4 years old. She explains that her grandfather worked for Berman Brothers, and her grandmother worked in the home. Autaugaville (Ala.) ; Bessemer (Ala.) ; Dunbar High School (Bessemer, Ala.) African American families 373 Educational Background What do you remember about going to school at Dunbar? Cunningham talks about her experiences at school, including Dunbar and Pipe Shop. She discusses her favorite teachers and the subjects that they taught. Early education Dunbar High School (Bessemer, Ala.) ; Pipe Shop Elementary School (Bessemer, Ala.) 555 Traveling with Her Children What did you do after you finished school? Cunningham describes the various times and places that she traveled with her children around the country, including California, Wyoming, and other places like Florida. California ; Florida ; Gulf Shores (Ala.) ; Hoover (Ala.) ; Jackson Hole (Wyo.) Children--Travel ; Family vacations 787 Involvement with the Struggles in Birmingham Were you ever involved in the struggles that were going on around here? Cunningham states that at the time of the marches in Birmingham, she focused on her employment and financial needs. However, she participated in the bus boycott following Rosa Park's arrest. King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Parks, Rosa, 1913-2005 Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama 956 Working at UAB You started working at UAB? Cunningham describes her work experience at UAB Hospital in the Environmental Services department as the assistant to the supervisor. She later was moved to the diabetes hospital. Diabetes--Nursing ; Environmental services UAB Medical Center 1124 Encountering Stereotypes of Alabama Did you and your family ever consider leaving Alabama? Cunningham recounts the times she went to California to visit her brother, and the discrimination she faced, especially with people telling her that she was not stereotypical of someone from Alabama. Birmingham (Ala.) ; California ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Selma (Ala.) Discrimination 1332 Barriers to Voter Registration When did you register to vote? Cunningham recounts how in 1952 she successfully registered to vote, which involved having knowledge of the Alabama area as well as certain active political figures. She also details the changes she has seen in Bessemer, especially in administration. Bessemer's Voters' League ; Howard, Asbury ; Poll tax Bessemer (Ala.) ; Voter registration 1647 The Ku Klux Klan in Bessemer Was the Klan active in Bessemer? Cunningham states that, while the Klan had a presence in Bessemer, she never had a direct encounter with any of the members. Bessemer (Ala.) Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) 1763 Union Organizations Did you ever remember an organization called Mind Mill and Smelter Worker's Union? Cunningham recounts how members of the mine unions were treated poorly, including being beaten ; she also discusses how Asbury Howard was attacked in Bessemer. Howard, Asbury ; Mind Mill ; Smelter Worker's Union Iron and steel workers--Labor unions 2020 The Importance of Family and Community I had gone down to Pipe Shop to school. Cunningham talks about how she secured an education for her children and inspired them to have a good work ethic. She also speaks about a friend, Freda Hall, with whom Cunningham spent time in the hospital for a time. Children's Hospital (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Children--Hospital care ; Hall, Freda African American families 2273 Political Alignment Back when--Fob James and all those people come along, I used to have a lot of conversations with one of my employees about him, but I told that I was a Democrat and that's the way I'm staying. Cunningham identifies as a Democrat and talks about her memories of growing up under the Hoover and Roosevelt administrations. Democrat ; Hoover, Herbert, 1874-1964 ; James, Fob, 1934- ; Republican ; Roosevelt, Franklin D. (Franklin Delano), 1882-1945 Political parties 2430 Living Through the Great Depression You actually lived through the Depression. Cunningham describes her life during the Great Depression and how her grandparents provided for her. She also talks about different radio shows that she and her husband would listen to. Amos 'n' Andy (Radio program) ; Shadow (Radio program) Great Depression 2736 Traveling the World &amp ; Experiences with Transportation You have seen the world? Cunningham recalls her domestic and international travels, including many American states, the Bahamas, and Canada. She also speaks about her experiences with traveling in streetcars, and when she purchased her own vehicle. Atlanta (Ga.) ; California--Description and travel ; Canada ; Cosby, Bill, 1937- ; Cosby, Ennis William ; Detroit (Mich.) ; Las Vegas (Nev.) ; Nassau (Bahamas) ; New Orleans (La.) African American women travelers ; Bus travel ; International travel 3198 Political Leaders &amp ; the Birmingham Community What do you think about Obama? Cunningham expresses her opinion on former presidents Barack Obama and Bill Clinton, as well as Hillary Clinton. She then details her involvement in the Birmingham community and the jobs and friends she has made. Clinton, Bill, 1946- ; Clinton, Hillary Rodham ; Obama, Barack American political leaders ; Community life--United States 3527 Conclusion of the Interview Well, alright, that's great. I appreciate you taking the time out just to tell me about your story and that's good. Conclusion of the Interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history interview Oral History Johnnie Cunningham describes growing up in Bessemer before getting involved with the Movement. She was firmly committed to selective buying and raising her children to be active as well. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Jonnie M. Cunningham for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I&#039 ; m Dr. Horace Huntley ; today&#039 ; s date is November 19, 2008. I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule and welcome to the Institute. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Birmingham or in Bessemer? CUNNINGHAM: I was born in Bessemer, Alabama on February 22, 1926. I was raised in Bessemer. HUNTLEY: Raised in Bessemer, went to Dunbar High School. Did you have brothers and sisters, how many brothers and sisters did you have? CUNNINGHAM: My mother had one child and he was four years old and he left--my grandparents had us until he was about 17 and that&#039 ; s when our grandmother died. He was 15 and I was 17. When he turned 17 he joined the Navy and that was his life, out there in California after he got out the-- HUNTLEY: So, made a career? CUNNINGHAM: Not a career ; but, that&#039 ; s when he retired out there in San Diego, California. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s a beautiful place. CUNNINGHAM: Oh, I know that. HUNTLEY: Were your parents from Bessemer? CUNNINGHAM: Originally as far as I know from listening to conversations, my mother and grandparents were from down in Autaugaville, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Oh okay. CUNNINGHAM: That&#039 ; s all I know about it. HUNTLEY: Your grandmother raised you? CUNNINGHAM: Grandmother and my grandfather raised me. Not my mother&#039 ; s father, but my grandmother&#039 ; s husband. HUNTLEY: Growing up in Bessemer, what part of Bessemer did you grow up in? CUNNINGHAM: They called it North Bessemer. It says north, but it&#039 ; s off on 19th Street, that&#039 ; s where I went when I was eight years old. I was living in the vicinity of the Dunbar High School. My grandmother lifted me over the back fence and I ran into the back door to Ms. Warren. HUNTLEY: What was that like, going to Dunbar? Did you go to Dunbar all the way through? CUNNINGHAM: No, I did not finish school-- HUNTLEY: But you started first grade there? CUNNINGHAM: Yes and a little while I went to the Pipe Shop School and then I got into junior high school, I went back to Dunbar. HUNTLEY: What was it like growing in Bessemer, Alabama? CUNNINGHAM: To me, I don&#039 ; t have any--we knew who we were, where we were. But, I don&#039 ; t recall a lot of stuff that a lot of people say they remembered. Because I always--like I said, meet White families and things and I started--my grandmother worked around them. They were just people to me and back then, everybody had a hard time, I guess. But, I don&#039 ; t recall my brother and I as having a hard time because two old people done everything they could for us. I don&#039 ; t know a lot about a lot of stuff like that. But, you know where you stood. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did you grandmother and your grandfather do? CUNNINGHAM: Well, my grandfather worked for Berman Brothers and they had a scraplike stuff, over where the Pullman plant is today, it only--when I was a child and can remember, it extended only to 25th Street and 5th Ave. There were some slag dumps out there and they had iron or something like--look like silver like and they called it like managese iron or something like that. So, my granddaddy would dynamite the little spots where they were using a steam shovel like to remove the slag. They put it on a dump truck and they would take it to somebody and they people would knock the slag part off one side. I was just in their life like that. My grandmother was doing like domestic work and stuff like that. HUNTLEY: You say your mother died early? CUNNINGHAM: Yes, at the age of 20. I turned 5, she died like August and I was four when she died and I turned five the following year in February. A lot of people say that I can&#039 ; t remember stuff when I was five years old. I may not be able to remember stuff, but I know about stuff because it was always out and I do remember. HUNTLEY: My grand daddy died when I was six and I remember it vividly. CUNNINGHAM: I can remember when we were kids and things. Like I say, we had good times because nobody anything. Dad-D, is what I called my grand daddy, he always told us stories and things. He told us that he had a sixth grade education at that time and he taught us a lot of things. When we started school, we already knew. HUNTLEY: You were already prepared? CUNNINGHAM: Right. My little brother--I call him my brother, he was never in the first grade, he started school in the second grade and then I went to school a little earlier. After I told my grandmother I was ready to go and we didn&#039 ; t have birth certificates and things at that time and she lifted me over the back fence that divided our house and Dunbar and I went in the back door. HUNTLEY: So, you were right there? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about going to school at Dunbar? CUNNINGHAM: I can remember the first concert I was in at Dunbar. HUNTLEY: What did you do? CUNNINGHAM: We had a play, as we used to call it. Ms. Wright--at that time, she was a young woman. I don&#039 ; t know whether she had graduated or not, but she was our music teacher. We had done a scene like you take the high road I&#039 ; ll take the low road that was one of the songs. I remember my friends and things, everybody were friends at that time. I see some of them every once in a while. HUNTLEY: Did you have any favorite teachers? CUNNINGHAM: Well, Ms. Warren was my favorite teacher ; that was my first grade teacher. At that time, one teacher was teaching everything. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. You didn&#039 ; t pass classes. CUNNINGHAM: As I gone on, when I left from Dunbar and when we moved from that area and went over to 19th Street and we went to the Pipe Shop School and I did have some very---I was about in the third or fourth at that time. I have some real favorite teachers down to the Pipe Shop and there was Ms. Spates(sp?) and Ms. McKinney and my favorite teacher was Ms. Odom, she was our English teacher. We had another teacher, Ms. Bolden, taught us Geography. They don&#039 ; t teach kids Geography in school now, I don&#039 ; t think. HUNTLEY: I don&#039 ; t think so either. CUNNINGHAM: Then, I had a Math teacher, Mr. Curtis was his name. Then, when I went back to Dunbar--I can&#039 ; t remember his name right now. Anyway, he taught some of my kids after teaching me, because I was a young mother. HUNTLEY: So, you went to--what grade did you finish? CUNNINGHAM: I finished at the tenth grade over at Dunbar. HUNTLEY: What did you do after you finished school? Did you start--- CUNNINGHAM: I was working way before then because I started out by the time I was 12 years, like domestic work. I&#039 ; d take care of kids. I had done that for a long time and then I used to go on vacation and that&#039 ; s why I traveled so much, working for a family and I&#039 ; d go-- HUNTLEY: Go on vacation with them? Where did you go? CUNNINGHAM: Whew! HUNTLEY: All over. CUNNINGHAM: I&#039 ; d been all over. I done a little boys&#039 ; --little Manfrey boys up there when I was about 12, the only thing I did--in the summertime, when I was out of school. I would keep them and we&#039 ; ll go down to what they call Westlake Mall down there and then we&#039 ; ll go over to the other mall for the rest of the day. As I grew older-- HUNTLEY: How did you get there ; on the bus? CUNNINGHAM: Not at that time, it was just walking distance. As I grew older I had done domestic work, like I say, up until I was &#039 ; 71, when I went to work at the University. But, I had worked for some of the same families all these years and we&#039 ; d go to Florida and Gulf Shores and everywhere when our children was still-- HUNTLEY: Yes. CUNNINGHAM: Like I told--I had been all up and down that coast. HUNTLEY: So, the families treated you very well? CUNNINGHAM: Oh yea, I had gone to California and visited. It was right after all the stuff we had here. And they asked, &quot ; What are you all gonna do back there?&quot ; I said, &quot ; We don&#039 ; t what we needed to do back there.&quot ; They said, &quot ; Well you have to go around to the back door and all that stuff.&quot ; I said, &quot ; No, nobody had ever told me I had to go in the back door.&quot ; I was treated nicely because I always treated people nice. HUNTLEY: When you would go to Florida and Gulf Shores, usually on weekends or is it vacations? CUNNINGHAM: Some of my kids were small at that time. But, where I lived wasn&#039 ; t nothing but families and you don&#039 ; t find those families anymore. But, I had no problem in taking care of my kids because I was working taking care of them. HUNTLEY: Did your children ever play with their children? Did you ever take them to the houses with you? CUNNINGHAM: My children would spend whole months at the time over at Dr. Chase&#039 ; s, when they didn&#039 ; t have children per se, but we would stay over there ; like they would go out to Jackson Hole, Wyoming(sp?), all those areas out there. I would take my children over there. HUNTLEY: Right, out to Hoover-- CUNNINGHAM: Rocky Ridge is off 280. HUNTLEY: Right. CUNNINGHAM: I&#039 ; d take them over there and we&#039 ; d spend the whole summer over there. They&#039 ; d been exposed to them and like--Ms. Carol ; I know you don&#039 ; t know who she is. They don&#039 ; t know color or nothing like that. Just like I don&#039 ; t let somebody do something to me. HUNTLEY: Were you ever involved in the struggles that were going on around here? CUNNINGHAM: Well, I was involved in a way because I had to--not in Birmingham per se, but what I done with my struggle was keep my money in my pocket. I was asked by one of my employers, &quot ; Why you&#039 ; re not down there marching?&quot ; I told him, &quot ; That&#039 ; s not my bag, marching. I&#039 ; ll tell you one thing, I don&#039 ; t want nobody spitting on me, turning no water on me.&quot ; I&#039 ; m not afraid of the dogs, you know, but you know if you have a dog and tell him what to do, he&#039 ; ll do it. Dogs weren&#039 ; t my problem and I&#039 ; m not gonna say I&#039 ; m not gonna hit back and that&#039 ; s not what Dr. King wanted. He wanted a nonviolent thing, I&#039 ; m not a violent person, but I wasn&#039 ; t gonna take somebody&#039 ; s abuse, I ain&#039 ; t taking nothing. But, I told him what I will do, let him know that I wasn&#039 ; t making what I should have been making. I&#039 ; ll take these few dollars you give me and I&#039 ; ll take it down there and give it to them. HUNTLEY: You would tell him that? CUNNINGHAM: Oh yea. HUNTLEY: Did they respond to that? CUNNINGHAM: He said I was crazy anyway. HUNTLEY: He didn&#039 ; t expect anything different from you. CUNNINGHAM: That&#039 ; s what I told him. We were riding the bus home. Then, I would ride from Bessemer to Birmingham and catch the 45 and when I get over here, I would catch 51 and go out on Rocky Ridge Road, that&#039 ; s where I was working at when the struggle was going on. But, I didn&#039 ; t spend my money in Birmingham and I didn&#039 ; t spend it in Bessemer--really in Birmingham because of what was going on. I would buy my food over at Rocky Ridge Road and bring it on home when we had a ride. But, then after Ms. Parks sat down, we all walked for 14 months and I still went to work on Monday Wednesdays and Fridays because we had some strong me. They would pick us up like if we&#039 ; re out on the highway, they&#039 ; ll pick us up and bring us to Birmingham then somebody would take us on over, just like Ms. Parks. Then, they would come there and pick us up and bring us back. We didn&#039 ; t have a problem ; then, we finally got somebody that would make a regular around there for us. HUNTLEY: Did you work everyday? CUNNINGHAM: I worked everyday, but not over the mountain. I had different people that I worked for, good families. HUNTLEY: You started working at UAB? CUNNINGHAM: In 1971, I went to work at UAB. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to go over there? CUNNINGHAM: Because Richard was starting school, my husband was a diabetic. I had three little granddaughters in St. Francis. My husband worked at the Pipe Shop, but at that time all our children was grown up. But, we raised six grandchildren. HUNTLEY: So, you had to feed some mouths? CUNNINGHAM: Where there are a lot of people, there&#039 ; s always a lot of food. I fed mine and everybody else that come along. HUNTLEY: So, what did you do at UAB? CUNNINGHAM: I was in Environmental Services and I was assistant to the supervisor. As a matter of fact I did her work and mine too. They had no problem with me. Like I said, they sent out a survey asking why did we think our job was important. I told why I thought mine was important, because any virus or anything got loose, Environmental Services was gonna be responsible for that. When the doctors couldn&#039 ; t do what I had--- HUNTLEY: What was your job? CUNNINGHAM: Actually, I started off like doing beds and different stuff like that. You know the things that Environmental Services do. After that, I was sent over to--when they built the diabetes hospital, I was sent over there with a group of seven people and that was my job until I retired, overseeing everything over and helping with the work. My job description said: Assist to the supervisor. I had a supervisor for about eight hours per week. Then, I had to do all the paperwork and stuff like that and I assisted with seeing to the work being done. Like I used to tell them, &quot ; If you don&#039 ; t do it, it&#039 ; s gonna fall on my shoulders.&quot ; I didn&#039 ; t have a problem because that was a job too and I was glad of it. It helped me, Richard went to school over there for two years after I had started working. As a matter of fact, I started in &#039 ; 71 and he graduated in &#039 ; 70. I met a lot of good friends, made a lot of friends and everything. HUNTLEY: Did you and your family ever consider leaving Alabama? CUNNINGHAM: No. HUNTLEY: You say you had a brother that was in California? CUNNINGHAM: My brother was in the Navy and that was just my brother. It was alright. HUNTLEY: Did you ever visit him in California? CUNNINGHAM: I went out there over 50 years. HUNTLEY: Is that right? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. HUNTLEY: How was that? CUNNINGHAM: Like I told him--I went out there one time--when I first went there, it was just a little hills and stuff like that. I didn&#039 ; t see any freeways and nothing like that. I enjoyed out there, but it was discrimination everywhere you went. I say that today. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s true. CUNNINGHAM: I had met this guy, he went home with my brother and his wife and I went out one night and we had gone to--a bunch of chief petty officers. Then, the lady walked up to me and asked me, &quot ; Are you for real?&quot ; HUNTLEY: What did she mean by that? CUNNINGHAM: I&#039 ; m gonna tell you in a minute. I said, &quot ; Meaning?&quot ; She said, &quot ; You don&#039 ; t look like anybody from Alabama, nor do you act like it.&quot ; I said, &quot ; How do people from Alabama act?&quot ; I reminded her that the people she saw going across that bridge down in Selma/Montgomery March. I said, &quot ; Everybody don&#039 ; t look like that, a lot of those people did sit ins.&quot ; They wanted to know about our bathroom facilities and blah blah, just a whole lot of stupid stuff. When I finally realized what she was trying to say, I went over to the bar and got me a little brandy, I don&#039 ; t know what she had in her glass, but I know what I had in mine. I told her that everybody in Alabama don&#039 ; t look like those people. I told her, &quot ; You will never see me walking around looking like that, if I was going across the Pettus Bridge, I wouldn&#039 ; t be dressed up like that. A lot of people were sit ins. HUNTLEY: People have a tendency to sort of stereotype people from Alabama. CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, but they didn&#039 ; t want to believe that I was from Alabama. I just wanted to know what people from Alabama looked like, that&#039 ; s what wanted to know. HUNTLEY: They want to see somebody ragged. CUNNINGHAM: Then, the guy--he didn&#039 ; t know anything about--but one funeral home in Birmingham and I can&#039 ; t think of the name, it was an old funeral home. He knew somebody from there. He was the person that asked then about what are we gonna do. I said, &quot ; We will not tear up downtown Birmingham because they gonna stop us before we get there.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Not like you guys doing in the Watts area out here.&quot ; We had a big conversation because I read up on all that stuff. HUNTLEY: When did you register to vote? CUNNINGHAM: 1952. HUNTLEY: What was that experience like? CUNNINGHAM: Questionnaires at that time--asking if you if you&#039 ; re an bona fide resident of Alabama, about the county and how long had you been there, if you say you were from a different county or something, you put down a different number, that would disqualify you. How many senators, congressman, representatives and things we had. The thing that still is vivid in my mind, we had to tell them the name of a woman senator out of Chicago, her name was Ms. Smith, I&#039 ; ll never forget that and that was back in 1952. We paid poll tax. HUNTLEY: Did you pass the first time you went? CUNNINGHAM: I passed the first time I went. HUNTLEY: How did that--because they would have all kinds of different ways to disqualify you. CUNNINGHAM: That&#039 ; s what I&#039 ; m saying now, if you didn&#039 ; t know these answers they had down there-- that&#039 ; s why they disqualified you. But, we knew. HUNTLEY: Did you know Asberry Howard? CUNNINGHAM: Yes, I know Asberry Howard and his father too. HUNTLEY: His father started the Bessemer Voters&#039 ; League and they were very instrumental in getting people registered. CUNNINGHAM: I knew them real well because they lived over in South Bessemer and we lived on the North side. HUNTLEY: Mr. Howard--the Senior, he became a state legislature. CUNNINGHAM: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of the campaigns? CUNNINGHAM: Mostly at that time, I did not--well, I would go down everytime we have a meeting, I like to go to the churches and stuff like to see what we were gonna do. I had to work and didn&#039 ; t have time and then at that time, you would need transportation to get to and from. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. CUNNINGHAM: Mr. Cunningham also qualified in 1952. HUNTLEY: Did he? Okay. So, you guys were carrying the banner then? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were there other people in your neighborhood? Was that an effort? CUNNINGHAM: Well, we had a few that did. The rest of them--they weren&#039 ; t ready until the voter registrars. The Government sent those people out. I filled out my questionnaire. HUNTLEY: Was there a question when you went to work, about your voting? CUNNINGHAM: I had problems working at the laundry--my two girlfriends and it was like a self- service laundry. This one lady asked me did I qualify to vote because I wanted to mix with White people. I told her I was mixing with them all my life, it wasn&#039 ; t a big deal with me and it&#039 ; s still not a big deal. HUNTLEY: She&#039 ; s questioning you about why would a Black person want to vote. CUNNINGHAM: Not because I wanted to be associated or be with them. I&#039 ; ve always been proud of myself. Tell my children they&#039 ; re as good as the best and better than the rest and that way you don&#039 ; t have to worry about it. HUNTLEY: I think all of our parents-- CUNNINGHAM: I have a lot of, if you want to say White friends. I know one particular lady now, when she came from Chattanooga, TN to work at the hospital. We&#039 ; re still real good friends right today. Her son had this condo down in Biloxi, MS and we went down there to spend a week at a time. HUNTLEY: How has Bessemer changed over? CUNNINGHAM: Bessemer&#039 ; s changed a lot ; it was Bessemer. I can remember a lot of things that went on-- HUNTLEY: Like what for instance? CUNNINGHAM: I remember when we had a slot machine right out there on 19th Street in a grocery store. HUNTLEY: Is that right? CUNNINGHAM: Then, administration and stuff have changed around and different incidents and things happened there you know, all that stuff is still in my mind. I remember if somebody had mailed a bomb downtown Bessemer and that was like in 1978 because it was the same year my husband died. HUNTLEY: Is that right? CUNNINGHAM: Just a lot of stuff. HUNTLEY: Was the Klan active in Bessemer? CUNNINGHAM: Well, they were but I never thought about no Klans. HUNTLEY: Did you ever see them? CUNNINGHAM: I did see--at one time it was later on, there was a field out there off the highway in Bessemer that they had a meeting out there. I remember a man in the drug store asking me where I was going and I was going back over where we had moved from, over there in the projects on the north side and to get some shoes. He asked, &quot ; Where you going this time of night, you see them people out there.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Those people are tending to their business and I got to tend to mine.&quot ; The bus came along and I got on the bus and went on and did what I had to do and come on back. They didn&#039 ; t bother me, because I still feel today, anybody hide your face to do anything--I never had problems with them doing anything to me or my family or nothing like that. HUNTLEY: They met in that same place? CUNNINGHAM: It was kind of a rally for some reason, I don&#039 ; t know. HUNTLEY: Was that consistently done, the place where they normally meet? CUNNINGHAM: This was one time that I remember, but I always heard my granddaddy talking about them. HUNTLEY: You ever remember them coming through the neighborhood after one of those meetings or anything? They never drove through there like in a parade or nothing? CUNNINGHAM: I don&#039 ; t remember, like I said, the only thing I saw--the group I saw was out there in that field having some type of rally. HUNTLEY: Was that out on the superhighway? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. That&#039 ; s when you come under that first viaduct, coming back this way. HUNTLEY: Did you ever remember an organization called Mind Mill and Smelter Worker&#039 ; s Union? CUNNINGHAM: I remember about the-- HUNTLEY: Was your granddaddy or your husband a member of a union? CUNNINGHAM: Not until Jimbo went to work at the Pipe Shop. I remember my granddaddy talking about what they done to the people that belonged to the union and things like that. I can remember him vividly talking about stuff like that. Looks like he told me one time--he told us so much stuff that&#039 ; s still in my mind. Then, they were talking about the unions and what happened to the people that belonged to the union and things like that. HUNTLEY: What did they say that happen? CUNNINGHAM: They would beat the people up if they go into the mines and something like that, they would do something to do stop them from coming out and all that stuff. HUNTLEY: Did anybody in your family ever work in the mines? CUNNINGHAM: No. HUNTLEY: At Pipe Shop? CUNNINGHAM: No, my husband worked as pipe blower and my stepfather was also a pipe blower. But mine didn&#039 ; t cross no picket line if that&#039 ; s what you want to know. At one time, the union did--they weren&#039 ; t gonna give them this, they gonna lose their jobs and all that stuff and he told her, &quot ; I just have to lose mine because I have a family to think about and I can&#039 ; t do nothing like that.&quot ; But, he wasn&#039 ; t gonna do it anyway. HUNTLEY: There were some tough times in Bessemer with the union organization and stuff. CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, it was tough times all around with a lot of stuff-- HUNTLEY: And that&#039 ; s when Mr. Howard was involved. I met him once or twice. CUNNINGHAM: Asberry Howard. HUNTLEY: Yeah, but I talked to son--in fact I&#039 ; ve interviewed his son. But, they were real instrumental-- CUNNINGHAM: We have a lot of people--like I tell people all the time, you don&#039 ; t know what we know. A lot of times, what we know, if you keep it within and do to me, that&#039 ; s what make things work. I know enough to write a book to put Peyton&#039 ; s Place to shame because some of this stuff is personal and some stuff I was trusted with. I&#039 ; m not a backslider. HUNTLEY: You know, I&#039 ; m just thinking, talking about Asberry Howard, he was attacked in Bessemer, do you remember when that happened? CUNNINGHAM: I can remember when he was, yes. But, I can&#039 ; t-- HUNTLEY: He was at the courthouse and they attacked him-- CUNNINGHAM: I know about it but it&#039 ; s just not--I knew he was attacked, since you brought it up. A lot of stuff that happen-- HUNTLEY: A lot of things happened all over this area. CUNNINGHAM: Oh yeah, and Attorney Shores was at Dunbar and he married Ms. Juan, he married one of the sisters and things, I remember all of that. HUNTLEY: Did you know, I think--he worked at Dunbar, his name was Huntley-- CUNNINGHAM: That was way back then-- HUNTLEY: He left and went to DC and he became an Architect, but I think he taught at Dunbar and this may have been after you. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, maybe so. I had gone down to Pipe Shop to school. But, all my kids went to Dunbar School, not all of them did--five of them went to first grades and things up to Dunbar, because I sent the other kids St. Francis to sister and them because it was a safe place while I was gone to work. People would say that I thought they were too good. It wasn&#039 ; t that, it was just convenient for me. At that particular time--and they got good training, some of them used it and some of them didn&#039 ; t. But, it was their prerogative. Like Richard and Yvonne, they first went to the Lutheran school when they were like four or five years old or something like. That was convenient for me. HUNTLEY: Where would you transfer? You would ride the bus from Bessemer and-- CUNNINGHAM: Downtown Birmingham and I usually catch my bus--51 on 18th Street. HUNTLEY: Actually different places where people would congregate to catch the bus to go across the mountains. CUNNINGHAM: I remember all those cold days. But, I barely did stop, I just kept on going. Just like I tell the kids now, you gotta do what you gotta do. When they come complaining, even the little ones, you gotta do what you gotta do. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. CUNNINGHAM: See, I&#039 ; ve been a lot of children&#039 ; s lives. Because like I said, I was raised a motherless child in an area where we lived, it was by--I don&#039 ; t know how many families were there. I have some of them living today. I have this one friend Freda Hall, whose in New York, I talked with her just the other day. She was a motherless child and she come down-- they brought her down from Chicago and I loved Freda. Freda was a little petite and she had rheumatic fever and they had to do surgery on her over at the Children&#039 ; s Hospital and she didn&#039 ; t have anybody to come and see about her but Johnnie Mae. But, I would do my Sundays to go visit with Freda and when I went to visit her in New York, the lady said, &quot ; You don&#039 ; t have to me who you are, you&#039 ; re Johnnie Mae.&quot ; Like I said, I worked with the families and things and I would bring clothes home. I&#039 ; ve know Freda just to take just a suit or something. At that time, she&#039 ; d cut out her a paper pattern and redo the fabric, you know all that stuff like that. Like I said, I don&#039 ; t carry myself as having a hard time. I just done good things and like I said, you can be nice to anybody and people will know how far to go with you. HUNTLEY: Exactly, they&#039 ; ll respect you and you demand respect and you will get it. CUNNINGHAM: Back when--Fob James and all those people come along, I used to have a lot of conversations with one of my employees about him, but I told that I was a Democrat and that&#039 ; s the way I&#039 ; m staying. Because my granddaddy said that Republican--see I&#039 ; m all back from Hoover, but they never cared nothing about Blacks and White folks. HUNTLEY: You came up then, through Hoover, Roosevelt. CUNNINGHAM: I can remember about--I said, about like I was four or five years old, my granddaddy--like I told you--Hoover was the President. TCI used to have a plant in Bessemer, long, long years ago. They moved to like Fairfield and Westfield and Dad D would go up there and get that old hard coke, get some tar and what kind of wood--he had a fire grate and he built him a sort of a round this that he could push in the grate(?) to build his fire behind that and that fire didn&#039 ; t go out until it was time to pull it the whole winter. Because what he would do, he&#039 ; d make the fire and then he would throw this old hard coke over behind and then he would pull it to the front. I remember all that stuff and to me it was good days for us, nobody had anything. HUNTLEY: You actually lived through the Depression. CUNNINGHAM: I did. Like I said, I remember when my grandmother would get up and cook breakfast--he worked for Berman Brothers in Birmingham and he would have to go out and catch the street car and ride into Birmingham in the morning times. He would get off up in Brighton and walk on home and just put 14 cents-- HUNTLEY: ..save that. CUNNINGHAM: But, I remember not having but two dresses when school started, we were just glad to get a pair of shoes and things like that. My first long coat--I was about 12, but I wasn&#039 ; t cold because my grandmothers dressed us warm and stuff like that. I didn&#039 ; t have a bad childhood. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. We had a lot of people--because they sort of insulated us. CUNNINGHAM: I still don&#039 ; t have any bad memories. But, those people were good to us, I loved them. As my children came along, my granddaddy was there to help them and Richard and them were smart kids, they were ready when they started school. The homework they had to do and my Dad D would gather a bunch of children around and he would tell us stories and he would teach us times and kids today don&#039 ; t have time table. HUNTLEY: We got all this TV now. We didn&#039 ; t have TV back then and families got together and talked and told stories. CUNNINGHAM: Oh yea. My husband and I always loved sports and we would listen to the baseball games and things like on the radio and when he started working at the Pipe Shop--when you know California games is later than ours. It would be about 11:00 and I would say, &quot ; Man, you better go to sleep because you have to go to work in the morning.&quot ; We&#039 ; d listen to The Shadow and then, if you listen long enough, you gonna see all this stuff. A lot of the stories that people listen to, we listened to them on the radio and they&#039 ; re not my bag, it&#039 ; s just everyday stuff. HUNTLEY: Amos and Andy started on the radio didn&#039 ; t they? CUNNINGHAM: Yes, they started on the radio. I used to listen to all of them. I think today if the children--if I thought the TV stations in those people like that for putting all that stuff on and we as viewers, if we could turn it off and not listen to it--or by the products that&#039 ; s sponsoring it, we wouldn&#039 ; t have it. Because, some of the stuff I see, we&#039 ; re just flipping through and I had a little grandson, he&#039 ; s 14--I went in there one day and said, &quot ; You don&#039 ; t watch that in my house.&quot ; HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s the way you have to do it. CUNNINGHAM: You might can watch it somewhere else, but you don&#039 ; t watch that here. The other little grandson, his mother was there and he told her, &quot ; Uh uh, you can&#039 ; t do that in here.&quot ; See, he was used to being with my daddy and listening to spiritual songs and stuff like that. Getting back to the times and things--I&#039 ; ve been through a lot, but the good outweighed the bad. I&#039 ; m still looking forward to going on and helping out. I can remember, getting back to the Civil Rights thing like then, if we would go home, just like we were going to work, we&#039 ; d come home and you go in the store, you come out with a package, they were gonna take that package away from you. But, I decided I wasn&#039 ; t gonna spend my money in Birmingham and I didn&#039 ; t do it. HUNTLEY: You know it bypassed Birmingham. CUNNINGHAM: But, I rode the bus everyday through there ; to and from until the Boycott come on when Ms. Parks sat down. I&#039 ; ve had good times, my good times outweighed my bad times and I like I told you, I traveled, I&#039 ; ve been everywhere like the old sailor people used to tell the story about I&#039 ; ve been from coast to coast from pillar to poles. HUNTLEY: You have seen the world? CUNNINGHAM: My first trip was to California, was--and, it was segregated out there at that time, in 1948 was the--December 1948, Tennessee was coming into town, I was catching Greyhound Bus to play Alabama. I remember that real good and I went out there and it wasn&#039 ; t the San Diego it is today. By the way, my brother was the first--this is what my nephews tell me, the first Black cement truck driver, you know that spreaded that cement on the roads out there. When I first went out there, it wasn&#039 ; t any roads. HUNTLEY: All of that has been built up since then and now you wouldn&#039 ; t know it. CUNNINGHAM: I&#039 ; ve been there since my brother passed, 2001 or something like that. HUNTLEY: I think I may have been there in 2000 ; my son lives in Los Angeles. CUNNINGHAM: Does he? I have a lot of friends in Los Angeles, my husband have cousins out there. I think I have a nephew that lives in Compton now. I&#039 ; ve been--see, when I go to San Diego and I&#039 ; ll catch the bus and I&#039 ; ll ride up LA and spend two or three days there. I really don&#039 ; t like to fly. I&#039 ; ve never really caught a flight out of Los Angeles. HUNTLEY: Is that right. CUNNINGHAM: I would always go from San Diego to Los Angeles, get the bus and come back and leave San Diego. Where that 5, I think it&#039 ; s 105 or something like that where--what&#039 ; s his name&#039 ; s son-- HUNTLEY: Bill Cosby? CUNNINGHAM: Bill Cosby&#039 ; s son was killed ; I know exactly where that spot is because that&#039 ; s the entrance where you get back on the San Diego freeway coming back. HUNTLEY: You know about it. CUNNINGHAM: Oh yea. I had the privilege to go to--when did I go, 2004 or something, I went to the Bahamas for my first time. HUNTLEY: Nassau? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. I had a chance to go to Detroit. See, we had a social and savings club and we went to different places like for things--I had my foster family that we clung to. When we have family reunions, we&#039 ; d go to different states and things and we went to--I think the last two times we were in the Detroit. I guess it&#039 ; s 30 minutes out of Detroit, we went to Canada on the boat, been all to Las Vegas. First trip when we started leaving, we went down to Atlanta to the Underground and stayed there when we would go on trips. We left there and started going to New Orleans and I don&#039 ; t know--we would go every other month. We had a nice group of ladies, we all grew up together. HUNTLEY: I know that must have been fun. CUNNINGHAM: Yea, it was fun. Then, after we stopped going to New Orleans, we decided that we were gonna book us a flight and go to Las Vegas. But, we had a lot of fun doing stuff like that with a group of people. Then, I never had to worry about the children because it was always somebody there to take care of us. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s good. CUNNINGHAM: But, I done the best I could with them and taught them the best I could. HUNTLEY: Well, you done a good job. CUNNINGHAM: Like I tell everybody, even myself, &quot ; I&#039 ; m Mrs. Johnnie Mae Cunningham ; I&#039 ; m as much as anybody is.&quot ; I might come to your house and do your work, but still, I&#039 ; m Ms. Cunningham. HUNTLEY: We are all human beings. CUNNINGHAM: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Well, Ms. Cunningham, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule, giving me your history and nobody can give your history but you. CUNNINGHAM: Oh yea, I know all about--we didn&#039 ; t get to this part about Shores&#039 ; houses, off Center Street when all those were bombed. Martin Luther King was in Birmingham and they brought him to Bessemer to the city jail for security and all that stuff. I kept up with all that stuff. HUNTLEY: All during your time. CUNNINGHAM: He&#039 ; s right up in here. I remember as a young adult growing, at one time--the streetcar business ; they had a caboose on the streetcar. You paid the men your fare and you would go get in the car behind--sometimes, he was so lowdown, he&#039 ; d pull on off and leave you. Then, I remember the boards and things like that. I remember when after the 14 months, they started the bus back, I had gone up there in Midfield and I had my daughter with me and I was tired this day. They had moved the boards and things and I was standing out there and I had no business standing up there. She said, &quot ; Momma, do you know what you&#039 ; re doing?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going up here to sit down.&quot ; I went right up on there and sat down. But, now, I tell you what, my preference is not sitting at the front of the bus now. I like to sit maybe in the middle part and when they started back after I started working, I would go to the rear because I&#039 ; m crocheting and stuff like getting me a good seat back there and stuff like that-- HUNTLEY: It&#039 ; s convenient for you. CUNNINGHAM: Convenient for me. I didn&#039 ; t start driving until I was 45. HUNTLEY: Is that right? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. I bought my first car when I went to work at the University, the little old credit union and got me a car. HUNTLEY: You could get around then. CUNNINGHAM: Still driving a little 1987 Nova. HUNTLEY: Is that right? CUNNINGHAM: I don&#039 ; t try driving too much now. But, if it&#039 ; s an emergency, I will go straight to University Hospital if I had to. But, I only go to the store or to church and if I wanted to visit old friend--most of my close friends are gone. I go to The Foundry and to the Thrift Store and different places like that. I love going to the grocery store because when I sent the kids to buy, they don&#039 ; t buy what I need and what I want to cook with like I&#039 ; m gonna do my Thanksgiving dinner and they come over with all kinds of stuff. I say, &quot ; No, just take me to the store because I know what I like. I still enjoy cooking and enjoy feeding people ; they could come out the street and eat at my house. The only person I see is the person that try to do me harm and I&#039 ; m thinking because they turn pink, it really don&#039 ; t make a difference with me. Like I told them, I been around doctors, lawyers the Indian chief and everything else, so I know people. I was fortunate enough to meet a lot of friends and things from countries and things, working over at UAB. HUNTLEY: They&#039 ; re from everywhere. CUNNINGHAM: Oh yea. HUNTLEY: What do you think about Obama? CUNNINGHAM: I think it&#039 ; s wonderful, but I would tell the truth in the primary, I rode it for the girl. But, I knew what I was gonna do, see I had my chance to vote for her then, had she won, I still would have had the chance to vote for her. But, I&#039 ; m glad--I don&#039 ; t know if it really ever sunk in real good about it, but I am glad, I didn&#039 ; t know, I&#039 ; ve been through 13 presidents. He makes 13 and some of them I could talk about, what put us in the predicament we&#039 ; re in now from now on. That cowboy wasn&#039 ; t the president ; he had his momma and daddy backing him, that&#039 ; s my opinion. That&#039 ; s what I call him, cowboy. HUNTLEY: Wasn&#039 ; t he a good president? CUNNINGHAM: No, no, still trying to make cracks you know. The last eight years, we went down. I don&#039 ; t care what anybody say about President Clinton, when the man left, he left some money. The little girl that went into his office, she was a sit-in, that&#039 ; s what I believe. Men are men are some of the little fast gals is fast gals. They&#039 ; ll do anything for a dollar. But, if he and Hillary can straighten it out, nobody can say anything. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s all that&#039 ; s necessary. CUNNINGHAM: I hope the girl do get to be Secretary of State, I hope she make it. She has the ability and they&#039 ; re talking about--that girl is smart, I&#039 ; m talking about Hillary now. She is smart enough to stand up to Bill and tell him what she gonna take and what she don&#039 ; t want. If she don&#039 ; t want it, she don&#039 ; t it. I think the Obama is a lovely family. HUNTLEY: Yes, they are. CUNNINGHAM: I&#039 ; m just praying that none of the ill-minded people don&#039 ; t get to him and that&#039 ; s what had me worried in the beginning. Carolyn said, &quot ; Ma, ain&#039 ; t nothing gonna happen to him.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Sis, Momma don&#039 ; t know that.&quot ; You already had those three threats out there. HUNTLEY: They&#039 ; ll probably be a lot more. CUNNINGHAM: These little skinheads, they caught them up there in Washington-- HUNTLEY: Tennessee. CUNNINGHAM: Out of Tennessee. See, I know all this stuff, I read the paper. Neighbors criticize me, they said--I get up in the morning time, I have a front porch, I get my cup of coffee and my newspaper. They said I don&#039 ; t be reading the newspaper, I be watching them. I read the newspaper, I look at the fashion, and I do food and all this. I started looking at money, all that stuff is to keep your mind off-- HUNTLEY: It keeps your mind active. CUNNINGHAM: A lot of times I would tell people that I have traveled, if I wanted to take somebody to Cleveland, I know exactly where to take them, how to take them, where you turn off to go to Detroit, gone to Cleveland, I know where to go. HUNTLEY: Because you&#039 ; ve been. CUNNINGHAM: I been there, seen that, did that, but I can truthfully say that I have done anything that caused anybody harm that I know of. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s good. CUNNINGHAM: I was talking to my pastor, Reverend Johnson, when they buried my cousin back in summer time and I was saying something--somebody was saying something about age and I told them I was just 28 and then Reverend, he grew up in our church and I said something and he said, &quot ; Ms. Cunningham, the Lord--I said, &quot ; The Lord is keeping me here for something.&quot ; On my good days I&#039 ; m good, on my bad days, I ain&#039 ; t-- HUNTLEY: All of us have good days and bad days. CUNNINGHAM: I&#039 ; ve gone through a lot ; I got hit by a car when I was 34 years old. But I still didn&#039 ; t let that hinder me. HUNTLEY: You just have to keep on going. CUNNINGHAM: Because when was I working at UAB, I needed that job. Jimbo was working four hours a week, Richard was starting school, had girls in school, I had to work. I made clothes and things for them when they were little. HUNTLEY: You&#039 ; re a community person then. CUNNINGHAM: I still am. I have a lot of friends. When I had my 80th birthday down at Bessemer City Hall, down on 3rd Ave, it was about 150 people there. HUNTLEY: Is that right? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. Most of them were young people, my White children and all. HUNTLEY: Well, alright, that&#039 ; s great. I appreciate you taking the time out just to tell me about your story and that&#039 ; s good. CUNNINGHAM: Carolyn--I had told I didn&#039 ; t think I would make it today. She told me I could go. I wanted her to shut her mouth. I think Dr. Huntley would understand if I didn&#039 ; t feel good, I&#039 ; ll see him when he come back. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JCunningham2008.xml JCunningham2008.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Johnnie Cunningham Description An account of the resource Johnnie Cunningham describes growing up in Bessemer before getting involved with the Movement. She was firmly committed to selective buying and raising her children to be active as well. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 20081119C Subject The topic of the resource Voter registration UAB Medical Center Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-11-19 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/c182c15c37b56df08ea8e81383e0d812.jpg 10dcb1f538b269add4ac6acf3d7ead2e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Johnnie Smith OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JSmith1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. United Mine Workers of America OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 May 4, 1995 Johnnie L. Smith Interviewed on May 4, 1995 19950504S 1:09:39 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) United States Steel Company United Mine Workers of America Johnnie Smith Horace Huntley Video 1:|1(2)|21(8)|61(6)|71(3)|92(5)|102(11)|119(4)|127(15)|137(11)|153(14)|172(11)|186(2)|196(9)|211(7)|224(5)|236(15)|251(5)|266(2)|279(7)|296(12)|307(7)|321(11)|335(17)|352(3)|371(3)|393(6)|406(4)|418(13)|441(4)|456(5)|468(5)|486(2)|501(6)|515(8)|531(15)|544(3)|562(2)|583(3)|603(5)|624(10)|653(1)|680(1)|692(4)|707(8)|721(5)|737(3)|745(3)|766(10)|786(1)|797(8)|818(7)|830(9)|847(14)|860(6)|873(8)|884(1)|896(14)|907(8)|912(13)|926(10)|941(7)|951(6)|967(2)|978(12)|989(15)|1000(1)|1010(10)|1020(4) 0 https://youtu.be/Mcv32BD_EMg YouTube video English 70 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mr. Johnnie L. Smith for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College and it is May 4, 1995. Introduction to Johnnie Smith. 33.4810, -86.9089 17 Miles College 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 95 Family Background Thank you. I just want to start by asking some general questions about you and your family and your upbringing. Are you from Birmingham? Johnnie Smith talks about growing up with 6 siblings and his parents who worked a farm in Butler County. African American families ; Agriculture Birmingham (Ala.) ; Butler County (Ala.) 484 Recalling Childhood Tell me about your childhood. What do you remember about your childhood in Butler? Johnnie Smith explains how his parents raised him so he wouldn't get in fights or in trouble. Adult child abuse victims Birmingham (Ala.) ; Butler County (Ala.) 611 1st Time Coming to Birmingham Tell me about that. When you came to Birmingham the first time, why did you come? Johnnie Smith talks about leaving Butler county and going to live with a friend in Birmingham. Homecoming ; Night school Butler County (Ala.) 756 Working in Birmingham Well, when you first got here, did you work? Johnnie Smith talks about his first job mining for steel at this cement company in Birmingham. Cement ; Manual labor--mining--coke United States Steel Company 860 Cooking at Brookside Mine After you left there then did you go to the plant? Johnnie Smith talks about being a cook at the Brookside Mines. Horse and Buggy ; Mines--Cook ; Nicknames ; Soldiers ; Strikes Brookside (Ala.) ; Pittsburgh (Pa.) 1536 Mining at Hampton Slope So you went back to Butler? Johnnie Smith explains what it was like working in the Hampton Slope mines. Coal ; Mule Docena ; Hampton Slope Mine ; Pratt City (Birmingham, Ala) ; Riverside Cafe (Birmingham, Ala.) ; United Mine Workers of America 2046 Fighting With a White Coworker And I said, &quot ; That mule is going to run out of here, go out there and get killed.&quot ; And I said, &quot ; It's going to be up to you, not me.&quot ; So he went back and told old man Larry. And old man Larry came up there and jumped on me, you know. And I told him, I said, &quot ; Man, you don't know what you are talking about. You don't know who you're talking to.&quot ; And I say, &quot ; You're losing time.&quot ; And I said, &quot ; If you want to talk to anybody, you talk to Mr. Shaeffer and leave me alone.&quot ; He just kept a mouthing and I just got up and took one of them sprags and give it to him up side his head. Johnnie Smith talks about the time he got in a fight with his white coworker and how he wasn't able to come back after that. Mule ; Physical violence--Workplace--Race Brookside (Ala.) ; Pratt City (Birmingham, Ala.) 2273 Working at the Mill This is in the mill? Johnnie Smith talks about his time working at the steel mill and how they had a union. African Americans--Marriage ; District Representative ; Fortified union ; Steel mill Ensley (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Howard, Asbury (1907-1986) ; United Steel Workers of America 2441 Joining the Movement So when then did you get involved in the Movement? Johnnie Smith discusses how he was introduced to Fred Shuttlesworth at the mass meetings and how he played his part by advertising the movement at his work. Advertising ; Mass Meetings Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham Water Works (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Gardner, Edward ; New Hope Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Sloss Furnace Company 2748 Bombings of Churches and Homes Right. Were you involved when Bethel was bombed -- Shuttlesworth's home was bombed? Johnnie Smith explains being a watchman for the churches after the bombings happened. Bombings--Alabama ; Lawyer Billingsley, Orzell (1924-2001) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 2887 Participating in the Demonstrations Did you participate in demonstrations? Johnnie Smith talks about how he helped collaborate with Fred Shuttlesworth, as well as participated in marches and demonstrations on the public streetcars. Arrest ; Marching--Civil Rights Movement--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police ; Streetcar--Segregation Gardner, Edward ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Woodlawn (Birmingham, Ala.) 3076 Family and Church Support of Movement Did other members of your family participate? Johnnie Smith explains how he was the only one in his family involved in the movement and how his church came in later to support him. Bombings--Alabama ; Family Ensley (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Moore Presbyterian Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 3178 Advising for Alabama Christian Movement Well, you then served basically as an advisor for the Movement and to Shuttlesworth? Johnnie Smith talks about the time that Fred Shuttlesworth went down to the high school to try to deal with segregation and how he was beat with bicycle chains. Racial Violence ; Segregation--Schools--Alabama ; Sit-ins Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Selective Buying Campaign ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Woodlawn High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 3291 Encountering Bull Conner The worse we had was, we all called him &quot ; Bull&quot ; but his name was Eugene Conner. He was the mayor down there. And the city ought to have went broke because he ordered so many pistols. Everybody, every White face he could find to wear one of them guns, he'd give him a gun. Johnnie Smith recalls going to talk to Bull Conner and he explains how Bull was bribing preachers with alcohol in order to get information about the Movement. Bribery--Whiskey ; Senior Citizens Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Montgomery (Ala.) 3645 Recalling the 1963 Demonstrations Let me take you back just a bit. What do you remember about the demonstrations in '63 when Dr. King came into Birmingham? Johnnie Smith explains the time when Dr. King's life was in danger during the 1963 demonstrations and how they had to get him out of there in an Army vehicle. Army Vehicle ; Assassination scheme ; Executive Committee 16th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Kelly Ingram Park (Birmingham, Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 3714 Recalling Highlights of The Movement What were the highlights of that time? Johnnie Smith mentions the time that Martin Luther King Jr. met with President Johnson and how George Wallace was insulted by the gesture. Johnson, Lyndon B. (1908-1973) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Wallace, George C. (George Corley), 1919-1998 3868 Contribution of Birmingham to Civil Rights Movement What do you think was the contribution of Birmingham to the Movement? Overall civil rights movement? Johnnie Smith explains that one of the benefits that came from the movement was taking away some of the power that white authority figures had over Black and brown people. Power--White Police Officers Johnson, Lyndon B. (1908-1973) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 3960 Churches Benefiting the People Well, these obviously were some very turbulent times and we have covered a lot today. Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with that stands out in your mind that's related to the civil rights movement? Johnnie Smith explains that he would like to see churches continue to stand up for civil rights. Charity--Churches--Jesus Christ 4042 Conclusion of Interview That's right. Well, I certainly appreciate you taking the time out today to come and sit and talk with us. You have been quite a help to us. Let me just ask you one other question. Do you have any items that are related to the Movement or to the development of Birmingham that you would like to donate to the Institute? If you do have, we will be more than glad to talk with you about them. Interview conclusion with Johnnie Smith. Oral History Johnnie L. Smith discusses his extensive mining career before getting involved in the Movement. He became an advisor to the ACMHR, including meeting with Bull Connor. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mr. Johnnie L. Smith for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College and it is May 4, 1995. Mr. Smith, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit and talk with us today. Welcome. SMITH: Happy to. HUNTLEY: Thank you. I just want to start by asking some general questions about you and your family and your upbringing. Are you from Birmingham? SMITH: I&#039 ; m from Birmingham, now, I guess. HUNTLEY: Yes, sir. But where were you born? SMITH: I was born in Butler County. HUNTLEY: Butler County. And how long did you live in Butler County? SMITH: Well, I was born and reared there. HUNTLEY: And you came to Birmingham about 1919 and then you went back to... SMITH: Right, I came into Birmingham around 1919 or 1920, somewhere along there. HUNTLEY: You were born in what year? SMITH: I was born in 1900. HUNTLEY: So that makes you -- SMITH: July the 5th, 1900. HUNTLEY: That makes you 95 years old? SMITH: Right. HUNTLEY: I need to know the secret. After we get off, I want you to tell me the secret. SMITH: Well, I tell you, it&#039 ; s a good one. HUNTLEY: It&#039 ; s a good one? SMITH: It&#039 ; s a good one, yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me a little about your family? Did you have brothers and sisters? SMITH: Yes. I have -- it was four boys and three girls. HUNTLEY: Were you the oldest? SMITH: I&#039 ; m the youngest. HUNTLEY: You were the youngest? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your parents. SMITH: Well, my mother and father, you know, I don&#039 ; t know anything about their marriage or their fellowshipping but I know he and my mother were good providers for their family. We never worked under the sound of a White person&#039 ; s voice in our lives. HUNTLEY: So your family owned their property? SMITH: Well, my daddy, after he and my mother married, he bought a place for twenty-five cents an acre. He bought a hundred and seventeen acres for twenty-five cents an acre. Well, back in those days, I learned that those White people didn&#039 ; t allow Colored people to buy land. I don&#039 ; t know whether you ever heard that or not? HUNTLEY: I heard it. Yes I have. SMITH: Well, you didn&#039 ; t know whether it was true or not. HUNTLEY: Right. But he did, he was able to buy land? SMITH: My daddy was the type of man who believed in the Lord and the Lord would take all fear away from him. And that&#039 ; s what he did and he just pushed those kind of things aside and went ahead on and did what he -- all he wanted to know was it right. HUNTLEY: So, was he a farmer? SMITH: Farmer. Yes he was. HUNTLEY: What did he farm? SMITH: He raised cotton, corn, peanuts, sweet potatoes, sugar cane, made syrup. He would never kill under eight hogs. He killed around eight hogs or maybe nine. It depended on how well his family was accumulating, you know. So he was a great hand on looking down through the scopes of time and trying to put another piece of bread there for another mouth. HUNTLEY: Did he have people outside of the family working for him? SMITH: No. Just his family. Well, he had one man that -- people in those days had -- they didn&#039 ; t have a home, no where to stay. And if they could slip away so I&#039 ; m learning, I did learn that they could slip away from over there way over yonder somewhere and go over here and kind of hide out. HUNTLEY: So you had a person like that that lived on your father&#039 ; s farm? SMITH: Yes. Well, he came over there and I was -- he stayed with my father long enough for me to grow up and get acquainted with him. HUNTLEY: Did he have a family? SMITH: No. He didn&#039 ; t have a family. But he was a quiet young man when he came. So sooner or later when he left my father, he married and he had a very nice family and he went away and I had just got kind of acquainted with him and he went away. HUNTLEY: Did he buy himself property when he left your father? SMITH: Well, I didn&#039 ; t know the history of his life. But he came back. He came back when I was just about grown ; I was around 15 or 16 years old. HUNTLEY: Tell me, what was it like growing up in Butler County, Alabama. SMITH: Well, I&#039 ; ll tell you what it was like back in my day. I called it peace and happiness because I didn&#039 ; t know anything else. And you made your life about what you wanted it to be. It&#039 ; s not too much different then than now because you see some people now. They live, like nothing ever bothers them. Look like they are not ever in a bad condition. And I learned the ways and means on that is just the way you manage. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your childhood. What do you remember about your childhood in Butler? SMITH: Well, my childhood days my daddy and mother tried to teach me the difference in right and wrong which is with me today. If I did wrong, my mother would -- she would set them dates down. My father wouldn&#039 ; t. He would just strike a match on a piece of cotton with kerosene in it. He would get on you right then and there. But my mother would put them up. She sometimes, would get up as high has a dozen. She would catch you in the belt so you couldn&#039 ; t run, you know. Of course, it&#039 ; s going to be pretty warm standing there, you know. And she would whip you for every one of them. She would talk to you and whipped you for this one and then tell you the next one came up she would tell you about that. She whipped you for every one of them. (offenses) HUNTLEY: Today that would be child abuse, yes? SMITH: Yes. That&#039 ; s right. But it was good for us. I never been in jail in my life and they didn&#039 ; t allow us to fight. Of course that was kind of a hard job to keep us down from fighting because we&#039 ; d fight but if they got the news then you would nobody. HUNTLEY: You first came to Birmingham when you were 17. You stayed in Birmingham for a brief period and then you went back -- SMITH: Oh, I stayed in Birmingham about three or four years. HUNTLEY: And then you went back to Butler and then at 26 you came back to Birmingham? SMITH: Right. I went back one day in early in January 1922 HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. When you came to Birmingham the first time, why did you come? SMITH: Well, I came because it was a man lived not too far from us. HUNTLEY: In Butler County? SMITH: In Butler, yes. And his family and my family, brothers and father and all of them, we was very close, they moved to Birmingham and their name was Savannah Golson. And they moved to Birmingham. He had some young men. They was up with my older brothers. My older brothers and them was very good friends. So during the homecoming at their church, they came home for the homecoming and , he came over, just like he always had been doing -- came over to visit with us while he was down and he told me, he asked me did I want to go back home with him. I told him, &quot ; Yeah.&quot ; And I said, &quot ; But I know my dad won&#039 ; t let me go.&quot ; He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ll talk with him and see.&quot ; My daddy, he asked my daddy to let me go back with him. You know, we would take care of him. My daddy said, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t know about that. I&#039 ; ll have to think about it.&quot ; But sooner or later, my daddy, along with my help, agreed to let me go and I went back up there to stay. And I stayed with them. HUNTLEY: What did you do when you came to Birmingham? Had you finished school down there? SMITH: No. I hadn&#039 ; t finished school down there. You know, we just only had a three months school. And I didn&#039 ; t finish school down there, but we had a night school here in Birmingham and of course, I didn&#039 ; t take too much about it right at the present time because I was coming into contact with things I never seen before and it was between me and the schooling. HUNTLEY: Well, when you first got here, did you work? SMITH: No. My fellow friends took care of me. Then, I got a job with a place they called -- a company they called Cement and they made coke and they unloaded cars. There would be four men to each car and, you know, they would drop the doors down here at the bottom and then the men would get in there and take them shelves and try to break it loose and when it started breaking loose, they had a way they could break that a loose and could start it to going -- that stuff would shoot out there before you know it. Well, I had to learn that. They would be through with that car. There were on tourneys and gone to the next car. And I&#039 ; m over here scuffling trying to get my side broke loose. So one fellow, he was nice enough to show me how to do it. He said, &quot ; First thing you do is you, put your shovel down here, center into the door at the bottom and just work your shovel like that, you know.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; It will go on down through that loose coal and it got down there and it&#039 ; ll break the bottom loose. When you break the bottom loose the rest of it was going to come out. So it wasn&#039 ; t long before I learned it. HUNTLEY: Did you stay on that job then until -- SMITH: Well, I didn&#039 ; t stay too long. I had a lot of friends from home in the plant working for U. S. Steel. That&#039 ; s where I wanted to go, with them where they was. So I didn&#039 ; t stay over there too long. HUNTLEY: After you left there then did you go to the plant? SMITH: I went over to the plant to get a job. And it would be all the way from 300 to 400 to 500 people standing around out there waiting to get a job. The employment man would come out on a car platform and he would look over the crowd, you know, and they were hiring men then not less than an 180 from that to 200 pounds. Because they didn&#039 ; t have the convenience to have things with machines like they have now. Back then they had to have big men -- strong men to do that type of work. And he looked over there and here I&#039 ; m sitting over there looked like I just got through eating breakfast or somewhere, just got through playing in the sand or something, and he named me. He named me &quot ; Babyface.&quot ; Looked all through there and after he spotted me and I found out he knew me, I&#039 ; d stand behind somebody else and thought I could get in through lump sum. When he called,&quot ; I want 150, 200, maybe 300, I would get a chance to go in with the crowd. But that opportunity never did present itself. And he always -- he eventually he came down to me. He said, &quot ; Babyface, come here.&quot ; I would stand back. I wouldn&#039 ; t accept my name he give me. So different ones would say, &quot ; No.&quot ; And then somebody would point to me and he would say, &quot ; Yeah, yeah, yeah, him. Come here.&quot ; So I went up there. He said to me, he says, &quot ; Now listen.&quot ; He says, &quot ; You just cannot do this work and I&#039 ; m not going to hire you to come out here and get hurt.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; The only way that I&#039 ; ll hire you is your parents would be in a condition so that they&#039 ; ll need your assistance and your help and they come dependent on you and we might give you a little light job like that. But otherwise, I ain&#039 ; t going to hire you.&quot ; He says, &quot ; You just loosing time coming up here.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Lord, have mercy.&quot ; It was so bad to hear that. And so, all right. I accepted it and went on. But I would still go up. I didn&#039 ; t go up every day but I would go up. So sooner or later I went up one day. He looked over and said, &quot ; Hey Babyface, glad to see you. Got something for you. Come here.&quot ; Oh, man. You ought to have saw the crowd behind me, you know, following me up there. I went on up there. He said, &quot ; Go on in my office and sit down. I&#039 ; ll be in there a minute.&quot ; So he stayed on there. He come in. I was wondering to myself what on earth had he found for me. And it was a cooking job. You see, they had what they called strikes of which I didn&#039 ; t know what they was talking about, a strike. Well, -- HUNTLEY: Work stoppage? SMITH: Yes. Right. And this was out here on a mining camp at a place they called Brookside. And the company had a mine out there and they had a little -- what they called a little wild cat strike. And the men were going to work on. The company didn&#039 ; t pay something like that too much attention then. And the company, what they used, back in that day, they used soldiers for their protection. They put them soldiers out through them woods around their plant and they would keep down orders. So, I went out there. I didn&#039 ; t know anything about no strike or nothing. I went out there and they had a place for me to stay and the employment man wanted to know could I cook. I said, &quot ; Yeah, I can cook.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, Babyface, if you can cook, you got a job. They want a cook out here at Brookside.&quot ; Well, I had hung around my mother long enough to learn how to cook a little bit. So I went out there. HUNTLEY: You were not aware that there was a strike at the time? SMITH: Oh, no. I didn&#039 ; t know anything about a strike. I went out there and I stayed. I stayed from the latter part of August up until Christmas and my superintendent was named Henderson. Old man Henderson came around and checked up on the fellows from Edgewater, Bayview, Docena, Number Eight, Number Two, from all the mines the company had to break this strike. Just reach up there and get so many here and so many there until they come out there and break this strike. So, he said come out there and I was in there working. So I had two helpers. All I had to do was season and fix the food and my two helpers when I put it on, they seen about it. And all I had to do then was to just look over it once and a while and I stretched out. I had it pretty nice. I was just lonesome. HUNTLEY: So how long did you stay? SMITH: I stayed out there about four months. HUNTLEY: Then what did you do? SMITH: Well, he came out and told me, he said, &quot ; Now, Smith, if everybody goes home to their family, &quot ; we&#039 ; re going to shut down the beanery and you can go home.&quot ; I say, &quot ; Okay.&quot ; I just prayed everybody went. And man it was about two dozen families that stayed. They didn&#039 ; t go. Then he came around to me and wanted to know from me what did I want to cook. I told him, I said, &quot ; Get me a half a barrel of turkeys and a half of a barrel of hens and mix them up.&quot ; So I cooked the turkeys and the hens for those that stayed and fixed dinner for them. Well, only one day for Christmas with the company, you know. And I stayed there and fixed that for them. And he told me, he said, &quot ; Now quick as everybody get back and get everything back to normal, I&#039 ; m going to give you a horse and buggy and let you go to Birmingham and spend the day. See the company didn&#039 ; t have cars and trucks like they have now. They had horse and buggies. So, I was looking forward to that. Man, it went on and the assistant was named Ross Black. Mr. Black was a very nice man. He comes around one day about two or three weeks after Christmas and whispered in my ear. He said, &quot ; Listen, don&#039 ; t build your hopes up so high. I know you want to go.&quot ; And I turned and looked at him with my face full of frowns. I didn&#039 ; t know what he was going to say. But he told me, he says, &quot ; Mr. Henderson ain&#039 ; t going to let you go, but don&#039 ; t tell him I said so.&quot ; I said, &quot ; What?&quot ; Well, the Southern came through there in the morning about 9:00 o&#039 ; clock coming in from wherever it was coming from. And so I said -- one of those boys was named Val and the other was named Willie. I said, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m going to put breakfast on y&#039 ; all.&quot ; And I said, &quot ; Y&#039 ; all take care and I&#039 ; m going to Birmingham this morning.&quot ; They said, &quot ; Well, when you coming back.&quot ; I say, &quot ; I&#039 ; ll be back this evening.&quot ; So I put dinner on and everything and I went out there and got on the Southern. But when I went through those scopes of woods up there -- I had to go through a scope of woods. They went -- those fellows went to hollering and they called them &quot ; black legs.&quot ; They went to hollering and say &quot ; Hey, look out. Here we got one.&quot ; Talking about me. I just kept walking just like I didn&#039 ; t know what they were talking about. Which I didn&#039 ; t know in a sense. And I went on. So they cussed around me. After I got up before I turned down the hill to go down to the little station, they cussed around me and asked me and said, &quot ; What, you been over there to the mine?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; Yeah.&quot ; And the thought came to me immediately. &quot ; What you doing over there? You know we on a strike?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m not working over there.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I got a cousin live over there. I&#039 ; m just down here visiting him.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m from Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.&quot ; They said, &quot ; Oh, well, one said, &quot ; Hey, look at his hands. You can tell whether he work in the mine or not.&quot ; Well, my hand was in the water, you know what they look like. They looked at my hand, &quot ; Oh, let him go, he&#039 ; s all right.&quot ; I went on. I said, &quot ; I got to come back, now because I left my luggage there.&quot ; &quot ; Whenever you get ready I&#039 ; ll tell all of them, just let you through.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Thank you.&quot ; So, I went on through. Went on and came back and when I got back -- I got back at supper time. Mr. Henderson said to me, heard them all hollering, &quot ; Oh, here the cook, here&#039 ; s the cook, he&#039 ; s back.&quot ; He came to the door out of his office and looked at me and got my attention. And he said, &quot ; Where you been?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I been to Birmingham.&quot ; Who told you to go?&quot ; I said, &quot ; You.&quot ; He said, &quot ; I didn&#039 ; t say when.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I see you wasn&#039 ; t gone to say when, I said when.&quot ; HUNTLEY: How long did you stay after returning? SMITH: Oh, well, after I got back. He told me, he say, &quot ; You stay here until the morning. Don&#039 ; t let the Southern leave you in the morning. You ain&#039 ; t got no more job here.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Oh, so he fired you? SMITH: Yes. Fired me. I said &quot ; Okay, thank you.&quot ; I didn&#039 ; t care. Because I had -- wore these money belts. I didn&#039 ; t have nothing out there to spend my money for and they was paying me $7.00 and something an hour. HUNTLEY: Seven dollars and something an hour? SMITH: An hour. That was what they were paying me. HUNTLEY: Is that right? SMITH: And I had a money belt on brother and it was fitting me pretty tight. Do you hear what I am saying. And I didn&#039 ; t -- it didn&#039 ; t make me no difference because I could go on to Birmingham from Birmingham on home if I wanted because I was looking at my daddy&#039 ; s smokehouse and it was just looking like a army&#039 ; s packing house. And I sit looking at the crib and there was corn in there. Go to the mill and get some meal. There was a lot full of cows out there -- milk. And I said, &quot ; What have I got to worry about?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t know how much I got around here, I&#039 ; ll go home.&quot ; HUNTLEY: So you went back to Butler? SMITH: I went back to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Back to Birmingham? SMITH: When I went back to Birmingham -- got back up there they had a little light blow over up there. Work had slowed down. Didn&#039 ; t amount to a whole lot. It wasn&#039 ; t cutting off anybody but they weren&#039 ; t hiring anybody. But I could afford to walk around awhile without hurting. So I went on back and so Miss, the lady I was staying with was named Miss Willie. Miss Willie, she always called me &quot ; Boy.&quot ; &quot ; Come on in here, Boy.&quot ; She says, &quot ; My same ruling is good, stand good.&quot ; Well, she didn&#039 ; t allow it -- it was about four of us staying there. And she didn&#039 ; t allow us out after 9:00 o&#039 ; clock. If you out after 9:00 o&#039 ; clock, you didn&#039 ; t get in. So, that meant that we had to be pretty well on the alert, you know, getting in and out. So that was her rule and she made us abide by it. HUNTLEY: So how long did you stay in Birmingham? SMITH: Well, when I came back then, I came back in -- they had a place down there on 17th Street they called the Riverside Cafe. You go down there at Riverside and you get a cup of coffee for a nickel and you could get a breakfast for fifteen cents, more than you could eat. Well, that was just twenty cents. So, I was on my way down about 9:00 o&#039 ; clock. The next couple of days down to Riverside to eat, somebody is coming up Avenue &quot ; F&quot ; towards Pratt City and they saw me crossing Avenue &quot ; F&quot ; on 17th Street and they hollered, &quot ; Hey cook, hey cook.&quot ; I stopped and wait until they got up there. &quot ; Strike&#039 ; s over. Go on out -- if you want to work in the mine, go on out to Docena to wherever you want to go. They are transferring us all to -- back to the mines we want to go to.&quot ; So I didn&#039 ; t go to breakfast. I just went right on down to Avenue &quot ; F&quot ; and went on out to Hampton Slope out there. The man who worked there said, &quot ; Well, where did you want to work?&quot ; He didn&#039 ; t ask me where I had been working. He just asked me where I want to work and then what my name was and I told him old man Henderson didn&#039 ; t get a chance to put a red &quot ; X&quot ; on my card, so it was in the box just like he had hired me, you know. And he looked and found my card. I told him, &quot ; Hampton Slope.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, you can come out this evening if you want 3-11.&quot ; I said, &quot ; How about day?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, you can have day if you want it.&quot ; So I said, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; ll be out in the morning.&quot ; So I went on and left there and went on by the doctor. HUNTLEY: So you actually worked in the mine? SMITH: In the mine, yeah. I worked in the mine a while and old man Will Schaeffer was my mine foreman. HUNTLEY: So how long were you in the mines? SMITH: Well, I was in the mine around about two years. HUNTLEY: And then after the mine, then what? SMITH: After the mines, I&#039 ; ll tell you what happened. Probably I liked the mine so well until man, I just loved it, I just thought once that was an awful thing to be in the mine -- all that -- everything on top of you. You down there in that hole, but after I got down there and learned everything about it, I loved to be in there. And I stayed down there for about two years and I didn&#039 ; t say this is it. I&#039 ; m going to make it here. Well, on the tenth right in the mine, it was a new mine, they had turned off rooms, you know. The tenth right -- HUNTLEY: This is the tenth right turn? SMITH: That&#039 ; s a tenth. That&#039 ; s a room. You turn off tenth right. HUNTLEY: Yes. SMITH: After they got up in there a piece, they run into a vault. A vault now means -- here&#039 ; s the coal, and this here, this sheet right here is a rock, it goes right straight down in dividing this coal from here on the other side. Now, on the other side I don&#039 ; t know how thick this will be. This can be 15 or 20 feet thick. HUNTLEY: You don&#039 ; t know how thick it is until you get in there and start -- SMITH: Right. Right. And then what they do, they come there, people that, take those scopes and things and tell you just exactly what to do. Well, what they had to do, they had to go shoot this rock and you know, it was about 15 or 20 feet through, if that thick and they shoot it through and that coal comes up on the other side of this rock. On the same level it was over here. And they shoot this rock out the way and get it out the way and run right back into the same coal on the other side. So old man Schaeffer give me the job of furnishing them people a car to load that rock in, which they would load a car a day. And I had a mule, took mules in the mine. And I had a mule, I would go by the lot every morning and get my mule. I&#039 ; ll go up there and I just lay out there on the pile of clay they had there to make dummies out of there and stay there from the time I&#039 ; d get there in the morning until quitting time. Take the mule and would never hitch him up to a car. HUNTLEY: Were you a member of the UMW? SMITH: No. They didn&#039 ; t have that then. HUNTLEY: The UMW was not in the mines? SMITH: No. They didn&#039 ; t have those union and things. That wasn&#039 ; t in existence then. So had an old foreman over us -- had about 15 or 20 men. Had about -- had an old foreman there, his name was Larry. He lived out there in a place they called Heartspat. And old man Larry he was one of them you know. He would come by there and see me laying out there. &quot ; You get up off of that pile of clay and come on out here and get a shovel and get in the gang and go to work.&quot ; I looked at him and laughed at him. I said, &quot ; If you hold your breath until I shovel some rock out there, I don&#039 ; t know what will happen to you.&quot ; And stretched back out. Well, it would make him so angry he didn&#039 ; t know what to do. So old man Shaeffer told me, that was my boss, he said, &quot ; Now, I&#039 ; m your boss. You do what I tell you to do. You go by the lot and you get your mule and you are responsible for that mule until you put him back in that lot.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; Now, you take care of that mule out there and all you got to do is take care of that mule and when they load that car, pull that car, you give them an empty back. You ain&#039 ; t got nothing else to do. All right, if you got anything else to do, I&#039 ; ll tell you.&quot ; Well now what more did I want to hear. All right. So he just kept picking at me. One White fellow in the gang. He just kept picking at me. &quot ; Let Mr. So and So drive that mule.&quot ; I looked up ; you know and lay on back down myself. So he got this White fellow come up there one day. He had a sprag. A sprag is a piece of wood about that long you stick in a wheel to lock it, if it&#039 ; s running too fast, the car was rolling too fast. All right. And he had a sprag and he-- The mule was named Old Dick and the mule. Well, the mule didn&#039 ; t take no punching. You messed around with him. You run out of there and hit that main slope and them motors on that main slope out there just like that hauling the coal from the different rooms. What you call &quot ; gathering coal.&quot ; And they would get in that coal and them motors out there running just like that, you know. Because they ain&#039 ; t expecting nothing like that -- no mule -- because we had a certain hour to carry them mules to the lot. The motors done quit running. And I said, &quot ; That mule is going to run out of here, go out there and get killed.&quot ; And I said, &quot ; It&#039 ; s going to be up to you, not me.&quot ; So he went back and told old man Larry. And old man Larry came up there and jumped on me, you know. And I told him, I said, &quot ; Man, you don&#039 ; t know what you are talking about. You don&#039 ; t know who you&#039 ; re talking to.&quot ; And I say, &quot ; You&#039 ; re losing time.&quot ; And I said, &quot ; If you want to talk to anybody, you talk to Mr. Shaeffer and leave me alone.&quot ; He just kept a mouthing and I just got up and took one of them sprags and give it to him upside his head. HUNTLEY: Was this a Black man or a White man? SMITH: A White man. And I knocked him out, you know. So, when I did, I blew my lamp out. I laid back down on the pile of clay. Directly Mr. Shaeffer came through. Old man Larry was crawling around in the dark trying to find his light. His face was bloody and so old man Shaeffer said, &quot ; Lord, have mercy. What&#039 ; s the matter with you, Larry?&quot ; &quot ; Smith, hit me.&quot ; &quot ; Smith, hit you? What he doing hitting you?&quot ; About that time I knocked my light on and come out. I walked up there where he was. &quot ; Smith, what&#039 ; s happening here?&quot ; I told him. He said, &quot ; Larry, what you doing interfering with him? Is you his boss?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m going to have to send y&#039 ; all both to Pratt City to see Mr. McCord.&quot ; That was the general over the mines, the general foreman over the mines. So, old man Larry wanted him to squish it. He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m willing to squish it if you --&quot ; Well, he said &quot ; No. I can&#039 ; t do that. Taking too much on my job. Something happen to you -- you got to go to the doctor.&quot ; He say, &quot ; Something happen to you, that&#039 ; ll be my job, I can&#039 ; t do that Larry.&quot ; He went on and Mr. Black, we went over there and he give us both 15 days a piece. HUNTLEY: Fifteen days off? SMITH: Yes. And it was against the law to fight in the mine, he told us. He said, &quot ; I ought to send both of you to jail.&quot ; But he didn&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: Well, Black men were fired for much, much less than that -- than fighting a White man. And you hit a white man and knocked him out and you were not fired? SMITH: Sure enough. HUNTLEY: And there were never any repercussions from that? SMITH: No. No. Mr. Black came to me -- he was Mr. Henderson&#039 ; s assistant and he came on up and he came up from Brookside and they made him assistant to old man Shaeffer. And old man Black, he still knew me from down at Brookside. He came to me, he told me, he said, &quot ; Smith, you know what?&quot ; I said, &quot ; No.&quot ; He said, &quot ; You got 15 days and I don&#039 ; t want you to come back into the mine. Not in this mine, no how.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Because some of them may pick at you. And if they pick at you then you going to do the same thing again.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, I don&#039 ; t know nothing else to do.&quot ; I said, &quot ; What you bothering me for?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, that&#039 ; s what I know and that&#039 ; s what you don&#039 ; t understand how to push it off, if you can. But you are going to go for it.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; I just don&#039 ; t want you to come back here because they&#039 ; ll pick at you and you&#039 ; ll get black-balled for good.&quot ; He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ll tell you what I&#039 ; ll do.&quot ; He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to get you a job at the company.&quot ; HUNTLEY: This is in the mill? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: So that&#039 ; s when you left the mine and went to the mill? SMITH: Yes. I went on to the mill. HUNTLEY: Tell me then, where were you living at the time? SMITH: At that time? HUNTLEY: Yes, sir. When you went to the mill, what community were you living in? SMITH: Well, when I went there, I was living on Avenue &quot ; K&quot ; and 20th Street in Ensley. HUNTLEY: Were you married at the time? SMITH: Yes, I was married then. HUNTLEY: This is probably what, in the 30s and 40s? SMITH: Well, this was up there around in the 40s. HUNTLEY: Were you involved in any community organizations at the time? SMITH: Well, not at that time. That particular time I wasn&#039 ; t. And when I got involved in that is when this fortified union commence, you know, holding meetings and giving the opportunities and showing the company how to come. They had been robbing laborers and what the laborers didn&#039 ; t have no opportunities and no privilege and the least little thing. Most anything your foreman could get you fired. HUNTLEY: This was the United Steel Workers of America? SMITH: Right. And I said your foreman could get you fired and could get you fired. You just don&#039 ; t have nothing to stand on, but said, if you joined this fortified organization, what you called the CIO, they said, we put up a fight and we see how come they firing you and what they are firing you about. And they are going to have to start paying y&#039 ; all. They ain&#039 ; t paying you right. HUNTLEY: Did you ever join that organization? SMITH: No. No. I never did join the CIO. HUNTLEY: Were you a member of a union? SMITH: I was a member of the company union. I never did join CIO. SMITH: But I attempted to because Howard Strevel was the, what do you call it? HUNTLEY: District Rep? SMITH: Yes. District Representative. And he and I got pretty close together and so I, you know, I wanted to know all I could about it and he give me the address of the top man. It was kind of backed up by the Federal government and he give me the top man&#039 ; s -- HUNTLEY: Did you know Asbury Howard? SMITH: Who? HUNTLEY: Asbury Howard? SMITH: Yes. I had a talk with him. HUNTLEY: He was probably the top Black. He became vice president of the steel worker organization. SMITH: Yes, yes. HUNTLEY: So when then did you get involved in the Movement? SMITH: In this Christian Movement? HUNTLEY: Yes, sir. SMITH: Well, I got involved when Rev. Shuttlesworth, he organized that. Fred Shuttlesworth and they had had one meeting. They met every Monday night. And Edward Gardner lived -- I lived on the southside where I&#039 ; m living now. And he lived on the north side on the same street as Edward Gardner. Edward Gardner was a minister. So he came over -- they had had one meeting and that Monday, the Tuesday following that Monday night meeting, he came over to my house and talked with me and told me, he says &quot ; I want you to go with me next Monday night.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Where are you going?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, we might get something good going.&quot ; So I went with him down to New Hope. Herman Stone was the pastor of New Hope Baptist Church right there across from Sloss&#039 ; blast furnace. New Hope Baptist Church used to sit there. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s where the meeting was held? SMITH: That&#039 ; s where the meeting was held that night. That next Monday night. Right there, just below the Birmingham Water Works. That&#039 ; s where the church was sitting. HUNTLEY: Well, how did that meeting impress you? Were you impressed by it? SMITH: Well, I went over there with him. And there were so many people. About two churches in one. And after the service and everything, he called Fred and told Fred he had a man here that he wanted to introduce to him that would make us -- he was -- Gardner was the vice president and Fred Shuttlesworth was the president. He said &quot ; This one will make us a good man. Somebody you can depend on.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; I want to make you acquainted with him.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; But he don&#039 ; t -- you got to go straight for however long with him, because he don&#039 ; t like no liars and this, that and the other. Just tell him the truth whatever the nature of the case may be.&quot ; He say, &quot ; That&#039 ; s just the kind of fellow he is and he said, if you be truthful to him, he&#039 ; ll work with you.&quot ; Okay. Well, like about 15 or 20 preachers, they all gathered around me and was talking to him. &quot ; Man, this is the man, we want him.&quot ; And they put me to work, you know. HUNTLEY: What did they have you doing? SMITH: Well, advertising. Advertising what they were doing. Such as -- see I worked out at the plant. All right. I could tell the fellows in the bathhouse what was going on. See. I could tell them. I said, &quot ; I think that this is something that is closer than I&#039 ; ve ever seen for the Black race to come together.&quot ; And I said, &quot ; I think it would be nice for every Black race it is -- every Black face it is to go join this and put ourselves together and I says, I believe we can make something out of it and have more strength.&quot ; So I went from there and so I was in most everything they had. There executive boards and the different meetings. I was on one of the finance committees and oh, I was in all of it. And it wasn&#039 ; t no end to the money. I don&#039 ; t know what them folks was doing with all that money. HUNTLEY: So it was plenty money -- SMITH: They got some of that money ought to be in circulation and some of it not. They would take up four and five thousand dollars every Monday night. I&#039 ; m telling you the truth because I was one of the finance committee and helped count the money. I know it was there. So we went on and on and on. HUNTLEY: Did you recruit people to come in and get involved? SMITH: Well, you know I&#039 ; d tell them. And a lot of people that knew me would come in just because I was in it. You know, how we was, we as a race of people and I still think we still has a part of that now. We kind of go a piece with you and then we start and want to hesitate and wonder if it was right. And if we are wrong, we&#039 ; re going to start something and if we&#039 ; re right we&#039 ; re going to start something. See, I think we still have that attitude. HUNTLEY: Right. Were you involved when Bethel was bombed -- Shuttlesworth&#039 ; s home was bombed? SMITH: Yes. I sure was. Of course, I was there and they had this fellow lawyer, Billingsley. HUNTLEY: Orzell Billingsley? SMITH: Orzell Billingsley, yeah. He was their lawyer, one of their lawyers. So the law was standing out there and Orzell walked up and so after -- HUNTLEY: This is at the church, after the bombing? SMITH: After the bombing, yeah. This is his house, now. SMITH: And the law is telling him, &quot ; You can&#039 ; t go in there.&quot ; Orzell looked around and said, &quot ; Who can&#039 ; t?&quot ; He kept walking. They looked at one another and said, &quot ; Who is he?&quot ; Well, with him doing what he did, you know, he was scared to look back at him and kept walking. So they knew that there was a little bit behind him, you know, as an authority. And so it went on from that, you know, and then I was well on my way when later on they had bombed the church that he pastored. This old White fellow, he had a lot of dumb SMITH: Because this -- they had men around the clock at the church watching it. HUNTLEY: Did you ever participate in that? SMITH: No. I never did go into that part. I always had something, look like, just a little there. In the way of giving advice, things like that. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in demonstrations? SMITH: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: Did you march? SMITH: Marched too. HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested? SMITH: No. I never was arrested. Me and Edward Gardner, Edward Gardner was the vice president. Neither one of us. And a lot of the arresting was made, I was -- it was my advice to Shuttlesworth, I was in the executive board meeting and that&#039 ; s where we would set up the plans for things like that to happen. And I said to Shuttlesworth, I said, &quot ; Now, you quit running ahead of your committee. You work with your committee. You don&#039 ; t run ahead and take things and charge. Y&#039 ; all make your plans here, then you leave here and going on out there and you take it in your own hands and do what you want to do just because you the president.&quot ; I said, &quot ; No. No. No.&quot ; Well, we went down there to the high school there in Woodlawn. Well, at that time, see these White folks had everything against us was in violation when it come down to right. You couldn&#039 ; t -- you had to set on the street car, board sitting up there behind you. You couldn&#039 ; t sit behind the board. Well, now all you had to do was just let one go in that streetcar and sit behind the board. Just one. He done violated the law. HUNTLEY: Blacks couldn&#039 ; t sit in front of the board, right? SMITH: Blacks had to sit in front, Whites behind it. HUNTLEY: No. It was just the opposite, right? SMITH: Yes, yes, yes. HUNTLEY: All right. Whites sitting in the front of the bus?SMITH: No. The Whites behind the board, the Blacks would be in the front. All right. They did it that way, I guess, well, either way it could work. But anyhow, them conductors would move that board. Then they would make you get up, ask you to get up and to give your seat and they would move the board above you. That would automatically make you have to move because you in violation if you sit here above this board. And each date had a way and if they didn&#039 ; t do nothing but stop this street car and going to telephone. Call the law and have the law to meet him. HUNTLEY: Did you ever participate in those? Would you ride the bus in front of the board? SMITH: No. I never was in that condition. I never did it. But my advice on that was, just one. One would make a case. You see, one sit down, he going to arrest him. Well, y&#039 ; all he wanted to carry the court. When he carried to court then the court would hand down the decision, who is right and who is wrong. You see, that&#039 ; s the decision that we had to make on those cases. HUNTLEY: Did other members of your family participate? SMITH: My family? HUNTLEY: Yes. SMITH: No. I didn&#039 ; t have anyone. No I didn&#039 ; t have any personally one. I had a brother, he lived 1302 Avenue &quot ; L&quot ; in Ensley and he didn&#039 ; t interfere with it at all. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of? SMITH: I was a member of Moore Presbyterian. HUNTLEY: Was your church and your pastor involved in the Movement? SMITH: No. At that time, he wasn&#039 ; t. Because when Shuttlesworth&#039 ; s house and church and everything got bombed, the church didn&#039 ; t get bombed, this fellow, this White fellow going to bomb the church. He&#039 ; s going to bomb it at the change of each shift. This man was coming on and letting the fellow off that worked from 3-11 and he&#039 ; s coming on from 11-7. And this man was going to bomb it between the change. And he came up the road with his dynamite and it was lit. Them fuses was lit off. And it was pushing him so close, he had to throw it down. And when he threw it down, he threw it down in the street and he run. And when he ran it knocked a hole in the street, you could sit half of the church in it. He was going to carry it away from there, if he had of gotten to the church with it. HUNTLEY: Well, you then served basically as an advisor for the Movement and to Shuttlesworth? SMITH: Oh, yes. Right. HUNTLEY: Did he normally take your advice? SMITH: Oh, yes. Well, my president was kind of on the hard head side. And the result that he felt for and when he went down to the high school at Woodlawn, they was going down, the committee was going. It was about five or six of them was going down there. HUNTLEY: This is Shuttlesworth that&#039 ; s going to the high school? SMITH: Yes, down to the high school in Woodlawn. Well, they had a certain time they was going to meet there. And the place that they had Shuttlesworth waiting, he just went ahead on about an hour ahead of time and when the crowd had got there, they done had whip Shuttlesworth with a bicycle chain and sent him to the hospital and he&#039 ; s gone to the hospital when the rest of them got there. HUNTLEY: Was this when he was attempting to get his children into -- SMITH: Well, no. That was to breakdown the segregation in the school. All of that was, and so, in that, that was some of that proof that I had with what I was trying to telling him about not abiding about what had been said in the executive board. HUNTLEY: Some of the other events that took place, were the sit-ins, the Freedom Riders who came into Birmingham, there was a selective buying campaign, a boycott of the stores downtown -- SMITH: The worse we had was, we all called him &quot ; Bull&quot ; but his name was Eugene Conner. He was the mayor down there. And the city ought to have went broke because he ordered so many pistols. Everybody, every White face he could find to wear one of them guns, he&#039 ; d give him a gun. HUNTLEY: Whether they were police or not? SMITH: Yes. Trying to break this-- HUNTLEY: The Movement? SMITH: The Movement up. We had a nice Bible class at our church and Professor Mackum, Dr. R. C. Mackum&#039 ; s brother, he was the teacher. He was our Men&#039 ; s Bible Class teacher and he said that, I thought he said we could be a great help to this program that&#039 ; s being had. And we sat there and listened and what he said and we said, &quot ; Let&#039 ; s go down there and talk with Eugene Conner and see just what, we need to kind of listen at what they said the law was.&quot ; And so we did. Was about five or six of us went down. HUNTLEY: And met with Bull Conner? SMITH: Yes. And we went down there. We didn&#039 ; t get a chance to talk. He told us that, you knew he did all the talk, Bull Conner told us he knew what we was down there for, but he had all the preachers under control himself. Around in his office, that high on the wall was stacks of whiskey. All kinds, all sizes. And he said to us, he said, &quot ; You see all that, them crates down there?&quot ; We said, &quot ; Yeah.&quot ; He said, &quot ; That&#039 ; s whiskey.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Now, all your preachers, I got them under control. They do what I tell them to do.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; When he come in here and make a good report, I give him a fifth. And when he just say something, I give him a half of pint.&quot ; HUNTLEY: So that&#039 ; s the way he was saying he controlled the preachers? SMITH: Yes. That&#039 ; s what he was carrying on against the Movement. All right. We sat there and we couldn&#039 ; t get in a word edgewise. He told us, &quot ; We were losing time to come there and try to hear him and what he was going to do, because he had the preachers himself.&quot ; He said, &quot ; He may preach to y&#039 ; all at 11:00 o&#039 ; clock.&quot ; But, he said, &quot ; Monday morning he be here. He&#039 ; s going to report here.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Did you believe that? SMITH: Well some of them did. Not all of them did, but some of, yes. But, anyway, eventually as time passed on, you know, it showed where he stood and what he stood for. And eventually didn&#039 ; t get elected back as a commissioner here in Birmingham. SMITH: Then this man, this man down here, who was it that got elected in Montgomery? All right. He gave him a job over the utility program that&#039 ; s in Montgomery right now. And he gave him a job down there, this man did. All right. I, at the United, with a fellow they called &quot ; Zacarello,&quot ; he was a Diego, but Zacarello was a rich man. He had plenty money. And he set up a program for the senior citizens and in that program it called for us going to Montgomery and places like that to see about what we could do for the senior citizens because the senior citizens had they problems such as they sickness, they husbands, something like that go to the hospital, that was a big bill. Well, we would take that bill up, go to the hospital, sit down and talk with the doctors and the head there and show them these here are senior citizens and whatever you have it today, they are the cause of it, whether it&#039 ; s good or bad. And if it hadn&#039 ; t been for them, it wouldn&#039 ; t have been this and wouldn&#039 ; t have been that. And they done got old now and what you going to still look for them to come up to date on paying as much as you and I? HUNTLEY: Let me take you back just a bit. What do you remember about the demonstrations in &#039 ; 63 when Dr. King came into Birmingham? SMITH: Well, Dr. King came here, when he came here, once he came here and they was intending to kill him here and N. H. Smith who was the pastor of New Pilgrim, him and Herman Stone, I know them two, but it was about four of them got an army car, that&#039 ; s the only way they got King out of here without him getting hurt. They had a trap set up for him. They got an army car and got him away from here. They rode with him until they got him to safety. HUNTLEY: Were you part of the advisory board or executive committee during the &#039 ; 63 demonstrations when all of the children were arrested out at Kelly Ingram Park and 16th Street Baptist Church? SMITH: Yes, yes. HUNTLEY: What were the highlights of that time? SMITH: Well, the highlights on that program. All of what I just said, foresaid, a while ago. All we needed was just one to go in there and it wasn&#039 ; t a law. There was not a law. It was what these folks wanted form themselves. The White folk wanted for themselves. And they said to you and I it was a law, it was against a law. That&#039 ; s what they used on us. All right. Now, when you, that&#039 ; s they law, just like marriage. They say it&#039 ; s against the law to marry a White woman. All right. So when King got into it, got himself into it and found out all of the ways and means that they had set up for and against the Black race, then he said the best thing he could do is go to Washington, D.C. and find out what&#039 ; s on the book up there. Then Johnson was the President of the United States in Washington. He goes up there and didn&#039 ; t call Johnson up for appointment. George Wallace in Montgomery, he had been calling Johnson trying to get appointment to get to Washington because he wanted to put what he was putting down in Montgomery, he wanted to get it to Washington, D.C. and get it going. Johnson wouldn&#039 ; t look back at him. Wouldn&#039 ; t even talk with him. Martin Luther King and he didn&#039 ; t even ask to have an appointment. He went up there and all he done was got in the right place and asked and told them who he was and he wanted to see the President. They got the President word and the President said, &quot ; Bring him on in.&quot ; That news flashed right back to Alabama in Montgomery in seconds. George Wallace blew his top. He said, &quot ; How did Johnson recognize a Negro before he would him?&quot ; Johnson come right back on him, and told him, over the air, told him, he said, &quot ; If you had had something to offer like this Black man had, I would have recognized you.&quot ; HUNTLEY: What do you think was the contribution of Birmingham to the Movement? Overall civil rights movement? SMITH: Well, I think it was a great asset to us here. Because, you know, at that time that I was coming along up here, you know these Whites, these old police, you know had these old big clubs on they hips and things. They didn&#039 ; t mind, before they&#039 ; d say good morning to you, they&#039 ; d hit you. Well, when they hit you, you didn&#039 ; t have sense enough to say nothing then. But so, in that, they took all that power away from them. They was in violation of the law. And coming back to this point for I didn&#039 ; t quite get through but when King went up there. And when Johnson, he got to Johnson, he told Johnson what he&#039 ; s there for. He said, &quot ; I want to see the book, to see what you got on here for us and against us.&quot ; So he told his secretary, Johnson did, &quot ; Take him around and let him see what he wants.&quot ; And he didn&#039 ; t wait until he got through to seeing all of it. He flashed it over the air, King did. He said, &quot ; Man, who you want to marry?&quot ; He says, &quot ; Its agreement between you two.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Well, these obviously were some very turbulent times and we have covered a lot today. Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with that stands out in your mind that&#039 ; s related to the civil rights movement? SMITH: Well, I would love to see the churches ; I&#039 ; d loved to see these preachers getting in the harness on what thus saith the Lord. Be honest. Quit trying to run it his way. Quit trying to carry in the way that he would benefit from it, not the people and not the Lord and Savior Jesus would be pleased. I talk about that right now. When I get an opportunity to do, I talk about that now. I says, &quot ; If this charity begins at home and will spread abroad.&quot ; And I say, &quot ; Here you start it, here you start it and you start, ain&#039 ; t long before it took a hold.&quot ; HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. Well, I certainly appreciate you taking the time out today to come and sit and talk with us. You have been quite a help to us. Let me just ask you one other question. Do you have any items that are related to the Movement or to the development of Birmingham that you would like to donate to the Institute? If you do have, we will be more than glad to talk with you about them. SMITH: Well, now, I don&#039 ; t call myself a wealthy man, but what I do name myself, I&#039 ; m blessed. I&#039 ; m blessed. And all of my blessings he has give to me ; I have a very nice wife. She is very nice to me. HUNTLEY: She has taking good care of you. SMITH: And everything that I profess to have I give it to her. Everything that I want her to enjoy life and she knows the difference between right and wrong and she knows the wrong side and she knows the right side. And so, that&#039 ; s my state of it. Now, if I didn&#039 ; t have somebody like her, then that&#039 ; s a good thought, that&#039 ; s a good thought. I would be happy to set down and communicate with somebody like you and see just what, how much help could I be along that line. HUNTLEY: We certainly do appreciate it. As I said, you have been quite a help to us. And what we are attempting to do is to get the real story of Birmingham. And the only way we do that are from people like yourself. Thank you Mr. Smith for coming out. SMITH: I appreciate it. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JSmith1995.xml JSmith1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Johnnie L. Smith Description An account of the resource Johnnie L. Smith discusses his extensive mining career before getting involved in the Movement. He became an advisor to the ACMHR, including meeting with Bull Connor. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950504S Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) United States Steel Company Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-05-04 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/7059bf4a1bce2b5034fde858fc21ef29.jpg a57572d35cf576a0c55a1648756a4438 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Charles Nice OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CNice1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Alabama State Legislature OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 March 23, 1995 Judge Charles Nice 19950323N 0:37:49 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Pupil Placement Law Alabama State Legislature Charles Nice Horace Huntley Video 1:|10(4)|24(5)|41(13)|65(8)|87(3)|105(1)|119(11)|135(11)|165(2)|186(5)|206(16)|232(13)|250(10)|262(10)|276(14)|291(11)|310(7)|326(12)|350(2)|377(13)|392(13)|411(4)|422(13)|438(6)|455(3)|471(3)|488(5)|507(16)|528(8)|543(2)|560(12)|573(5)|588(9)|605(8)|625(1)|643(7)|662(2) 0 https://youtu.be/rWM9sakhyPM YouTube video English 30 Introduction of Interview Right. I've been reading that. Let me just start, though, with just a statement. This is an interview for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute done by Dr. Horace Huntley. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 60 Background and Educational Journey We really appreciate it because we know the role that you've played and it's been a rather significant role and one really that has not gotten the credit that it's due. Judge Nice discusses segregation in public schools in Alabama and where he went to college. African Americans--Segregation ; US Steel Birmingham (Ala.) ; North Carolina 271 Meeting Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt The President, and they had nothing like the students they have today. Judge Nice recalls how he met Eleanor Roosevelt and how he listened to Franklin Roosevelt speak at the University of North Carolina. Greensboro (N.C.) ; Roosevelt, Eleanor, 1884-1962 North Carolina ; Roosevelt, Franklin D. (Franklin Delano), 1882-1945 482 Becoming Involved in Politics So, after you finished at North Carolina, what did you do? Judge Nice discusses how he dropped out of law school and became involved in local politics in Birmingham. University of Alabama ; Yale Law School ; YMCA of the USA Birmingham (Ala.) ; Young Mens Business Club 606 Running for State Legislature Yes. So, you became, then, rather politically active in the community and then you decided that you wanted to run for the state legislature? Judge Nice recalls how he ran unopposed for state legislature and attended all of the meetings. Alabama State Legislature ; Quenton Bowers Birmingham (Ala.) ; Racial integration 805 Voting on Alabama's Opposition to Integration in the Schools The White people. That really is a commentary, then, on your public life as far as representing Jefferson County. Judge Nice recalls how he was the only one to vote against Alabama's bills to keep the public schools segregated. Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka ; Pupil Placement Law Birmingham (Ala.) ; State legislature 1058 Repercussions Faced for Nonunanimous Votes Yes. What, then, after this race, after these votes that you are taking, what kind of repercussions did you...? Judge Nice recalls how he did not face many repercussions for his votes and discusses how he practiced private law after he got out of the state legislature. Birmingham News ; Fultondale (Ala.) ; Private law Birmingham (Ala.) 1154 Losing His Position in the State Legislature There are two things I want to say. Can I interject at this time? Judge Nice discusses how he lost his state legislature position to Sandra Ross and his stance on capital punishment. Capital punishment ; Charles Merriweather ; Young Mens Business Club Birmingham (Ala.) ; Ross, Sandra 1565 Personal Relationship with Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth Your involvement... During this time, you were obviously one of the civic leaders that had tried to change the... really the landscape of Birmingham's race relationships. Judge Nice tells how he knew Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth and how Fred would support his elections. Civil rights movement ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 1626 Memories of the 1963 Demonstrations What do you remember about the April and May of 1963 during demonstrations that were taking place here in the area now that we are calling the Civil Rights District--the marches, the police? Judge Nice recalls seeing the demonstrations and how he had to send reports to Washington on what was going on in Birmingham. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Police brutality--United States Birmingham (Ala.) ; Washington, D.C. 1717 His Church's Stance on the Civil Rights Activities Was your church...? During this time, what was the stance of the church on civil rights activities that were taking place? Judge Nice discusses how the church did not take an active stance in the civil rights movement. Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Presbytery of Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1785 Changing Attitudes of Race Relations What role would you say Birmingham has played in changing the status quo of race relations in this country? Judge Nice discusses how the people active in the civil rights movement helped improve race relations in the South. Civil rights movement ; Morgan, Chuck Birmingham (Ala.) ; Young Mens Business Club 1945 His Advice to the Leaders of Birmingham If you could turn the clock back and would become a chief advisor to the powers that were in Birmingham at the time, how would you advise them, as the Movement progressed? Judge Nice states the advice he would give to the leaders of Birmingham encouraging them to enact more positive change. Progressive ideas ; State legislature Birmingham (Ala.) 2102 Big Law Firms and Their Influence on Bills But one thing I do want to tell you, the whole time in the legislature, that four years, I could go in... to where the votes were taking place... Judge Nice recalls how the big law firms in Alabama greatly influenced the bills geared towards continuing segregation. Boutwell, Albert Burton, 1904-1978 ; Cabaniss and Johnson Birmingham (Ala.) ; Blacks--Segregation 2215 Conclusion of Interview Well, Judge Nice, I want to thank you again for coming out today, taking the time and sitting and giving us this information. Interview is concluded. Oral History Judge Charles Nice discusses his career and his efforts to end segregation in the Alabama State Legislature. He went on to work with Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth to make local change. NICE: My son made a comment to me the other day. You know, this new book that&#039 ; s come out on Alabama History had me listed in there. HUNTLEY: Right. I&#039 ; ve been reading that. Let me just start, though, with just a statement. This is an interview for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute done by Dr. Horace Huntley. I am sitting with Judge Charles Nice. Today is March 23, 1995. We are at Miles College and I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule to come out and talk with us today. NICE: Well, Dr. Huntley, I appreciate you inviting me. HUNTLEY: We really appreciate it because we know the role that you&#039 ; ve played and it&#039 ; s been a rather significant role and one really that has not gotten the credit that it&#039 ; s due. But before we start to talk about your involvement, I would just like to get a little background information. Tell me a little about your...first, your parents. Where were you from? Where were you born? NICE: I was from Birmingham. I was born in Birmingham. My father was born in Tennessee, East Tennessee. His father had a little hardware store and he went to the...went to college two years at the University of Pennsylvania, I mean, the University of Tennessee and then went to the University of Pennsylvania to med school. And there, he met my mother who lived in. . . there in Philadelphia. So he came to Birmingham and he started off as a doctor for one of the mines and then moved into Birmingham and became. . . and practiced medicine here for a number of years. HUNTLEY: So, did he work for TCI or US Steel prior to.... NICE: I think he worked one of those was connected. I don&#039 ; t think it was TCI but it was maybe the other one, but he only stayed out there in the mines two or three years. I mean in that area where he was a doctor for all conditions and everything. and delivering babies and everything. Then he moved in Birmingham near Five Points and then we moved up to where I was born on Iroquois Street. It&#039 ; s 29th Street, I think it is, now. HUNTLEY: 29th Street, yes sir. You were born in December. I believe it was the same day as I was born, just a few years earlier than I. NICE: A lot of years before you. HUNTLEY: Yes, but then you went on to school at Lakeview Elementary School. Tell me a little about what you remember about your days at Lakeview. NICE: Well, Lakeview had very fine teachers. Of course, everybody was White then and very fine teachers there and then went there for a whole eight years and then I went from there to Ramsay High School. HUNTLEY: And, you graduated from Ramsay High School. NICE: Ramsay High School. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little bit about Ramsay. Ramsay, of course, now is an integrated high school. At the time that you were in it, of course, it was a segregated high school. Were there any relations. . . relationships between. . . kids at Ramsay High and any of the other black schools at the time that you were there? NICE: No. HUNTLEY: None whatsoever. NICE: You know, I wasn&#039 ; t even aware practically that there was a White/Black school system. It was just the way it was and nobody came and talked to us about it. You didn&#039 ; t hear about it in church. HUNTLEY: It was just one of those things that you didn&#039 ; t discuss. NICE: Well, I guess so. I don&#039 ; t even remember the issue, but it was an issue. HUNTLEY: Yes. What did you do after high school? NICE: Then, I went to the University of North Carolina. And, at the University of North Carolina, I had probably the greatest, teacher...well the one that was head of the...what do you call them? HUNTLEY: The Chair of the department or the mentor, probably. NICE: Yeah, the mentor, Dr. Frank Graham. He was the principal, I mean the head of the whole school. . . HUNTLEY: The President of the school? NICE: The President, and they had nothing like the students they have today. But, what a great fellow he was. One day I was at. . . one evening I got word to come to see him or call him, I forget which. But anyway, I made contact with him and he. . . he said. . . and I knew Mrs. Roosevelt had been there. She had been there speaking. This was about 1936 or something like that. And, she was there speaking that night and he said, would you drive her over to. . . over to her train over in Greensboro, which was about fifty miles away. Well, I had been to Greensboro once, but I had never driven over there on the road. There was no freeway like today. He said, &quot ; Take my car, and drive her over there.&quot ; So, I drove Mrs. Roosevelt. . . HUNTLEY: This is Eleanor Roosevelt. NICE: Eleanor Roosevelt, and her assistant, the lady, Miss Thompson I think it was, that went with her as her secretary. We drove over there. I got on the wrong road at one time. This was about eight o&#039 ; clock--eight or nine o&#039 ; clock at night. But, what a wonderful lady. Of course, Franklin Roosevelt was my favorite always. Lincoln and then Franklin Roosevelt. HUNTLEY: Did you ever get a chance to meet the President? NICE: I never met him. He came to school my first year there and on our birthday and I was the first person. I was in there in the audience. . . in the new gymnasium, where they play basketball. I was there five hours ahead of time to be sure I got a seat right up near the front and I was there right in front of him and saw how...what a terrible hardship it was for him to stand up. And, these men helped him on up beside. . . the little, the things that were made for him to walk up. HUNTLEY: A little incline. NICE: Yes, a little incline. And, then, as he got up and down to the seat. . . once or twice, you could see how hard it was...I was just amazed. I said, &#039 ; I never realized that before.&#039 ; I had never seen anything like that, how hard it was for him to stand up and hear him talk that day. But, you see, he had a lot to do with my growing on. . . race relations. Especially, Frank Graham had a lot to do. And my mother and father, without knowing it, because they weren&#039 ; t. . . they didn&#039 ; t preach on the subject, but my mother taught me always. . .She read to me from five, six, and seven years old. She read to me all the time. That&#039 ; s why I love history so much. She always told me that Blacks were mistreated, the Indians were mistreated, and she&#039 ; d say things like that and that would get my mind to thinking right then, &#039 ; What could be done about that?&#039 ; HUNTLEY: Why did you not go to the University of Alabama? NICE: My father said that he&#039 ; d like me to get out of the state. He thought I would play too much, come home every weekend. Well, anyway, one day in the summer of 1938 before I went to school, before I selected my school, I said. . . My brother-in-law. . . At Christmas, the family was all there. He said, &#039 ; Where you going?&#039 ; I said, &#039 ; I think I&#039 ; ll go to the University of North Carolina.&#039 ; And he said, &#039 ; Oh, that&#039 ; s Franklin Roosevelt&#039 ; s school.&#039 ; Well, from that moment, I had decided where I was going---to the University of North Carolina. I don&#039 ; t know why he said that. I think there were a lot of New Dealers down there at the school, teachers and all, who were going there for graduate courses and he had read that. HUNTLEY: What was your major? NICE: History. HUNTLEY: You&#039 ; re a history major. NICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, after you finished at North Carolina, what do you do? NICE: I was rejected at the Army and waited around for two or three years and went to Yale to law school. Well, my father had gotten sick and was having heart trouble and it was hard on him to pay all the money and for one reason or another I decided to leave. I&#039 ; d passed everything in my first year, all my courses, but I changed and went to Alabama and I knew that politics was my love. I wanted to be in politics. HUNTLEY: Your father was active in the YMBC, the Young Men&#039 ; s Business .... NICE: No, I don&#039 ; t think so. HUNTLEY: He wasn&#039 ; t, but you were? NICE: I was in the YMCA because I went there for years to work out after I graduated from college. HUNTLEY: So, you, then, became rather active in the community when you returned to Birmingham? NICE: Yes, and I was in some local political things. I was in the Young Mens Business Club and those things. I was appointed by one of our men, who at that time, he was head of the city to be in charge of that race, you know, when they were trying to get everything into the city? Well, I was in charge of the outlying communities--Cooper Green. He appointed me Chairman of the outlying communities to get them to join into Birmingham. Well, my group passed-- in other words, the outlying were voted in by the people who lived there. &#039 ; We want to come in,&#039 ; they said, so they did come in. So, I was in charge of that group. Cooper Green did me a favor and appointed me to that position. HUNTLEY: Well, we should have appointed you to about thirty five others and maybe we would have had a metropolitan government by now. NICE: Wasn&#039 ; t that Birmingham vote--? Didn&#039 ; t that just fail by one vote of Homewood coming in? HUNTLEY: Right, it actually passed initially and then they redid the election or something and it failed. NICE: Well, I was in.going to all those meetings at night. HUNTLEY: Yeah, I talked with Chuck Morgan about that and he told me the very same thing. NICE: What a fine guy. HUNTLEY: Yes. So, you became, then, rather politically active in the community and then you decided that you wanted to run for the state legislature? NICE: Yes, and I had become a law clerk to Frank. . . to Judge Lynn and I was with him for three years. I was waiting for the time for the legislature to run again and I left him on the end of February-- No, it was the last day of 19. . . when was it that I ran for the legislature? I don&#039 ; t have it. HUNTLEY: [19]54, I believe. NICE: &#039 ; 54 and I ran for legislature. I didn&#039 ; t accept a cent of money that first race, but for three months, of course, I was living at home. I could afford to do it, and I was single. For three months, I walked this county just campaigning and I won that race. And that&#039 ; s the time when they picked just seven. You didn&#039 ; t run for an individual seat, you just--They just-- The top seven were the elected ones. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s interesting. NICE: And, we had three or four millionaires in that group. HUNTLEY: Were you one of those millionaires? NICE: (laughing) No, no. We had three or four. Hugh Kaul was one. There were two or three others. HUNTLEY: I noticed that during your time in the legislature you never missed a meeting. You had perfect attendance. NICE: I enjoyed every minute of it and you get to wondering... Sometimes you&#039 ; d get there and you&#039 ; d vote and they&#039 ; d have a vote and you&#039 ; d vote to adjourn immediately. It wasn&#039 ; t that you wanted to get home, but it was simply the fact that you were trying to keep some vote from being brought up. HUNTLEY: Right. NICE: If you thought they could beat it that day and you didn&#039 ; t want that to prevail and you wanted to wait until you had that chance to get in some of your people, who would vote your way, on your side... HUNTLEY: Well, you actually ran for the one term and afterwards you didn&#039 ; t run for that next term...not a consecutive term. NICE: No, I just thought that with the adverse publicity and all that I wouldn&#039 ; t have a chance. I think by hindsight it might have been good, but they would have organized against me like they did in the subsequent races. HUNTLEY: Because you did-- In &#039 ; 62, you decided to try it again and you did have opposition. Let me just share a couple of . . . NICE: They changed the system somewhat. Then you had opponents in the next few races. HUNTLEY: Right, your opponent was Quenton Bowers for Place 15 and this is some of the publicity that was put out in relationship to the race. Bowers said that, &#039 ; All elected members of our Jefferson County&#039 ; s delegation are staunch supporters of the segregation.&#039 ; And this is in 1962. &#039 ; So are other Alabama legislators.&#039 ; Then, it goes on to say, &#039 ; Quenton Bowers will stand by their side in upholding our way of life. His opponent, Mr. Charles Nice, cast the only vote in the House against the Boutwell Public School Placement Law to protect our schools against race mixing. Mr. Nice also cast the only vote in the House against our legislature&#039 ; s resolution condemning the U.S. Supreme Court integration decision. Standing alone in our legislature for integration in Alabama, can Mr. Nice effectively represent the people of Jefferson County?&#039 ; NICE: That is, &#039 ; the White people.&#039 ; HUNTLEY: The White people. That really is a commentary, then, on your public life as far as representing Jefferson County. You. . . On May 17, 1957, a resolution pledging Alabama&#039 ; s opposition and resistance to the U.S. Supreme Court&#039 ; s decision, Brown v. Board, actually passed by a vote of 86 to one. You were that one. Tell me about that. Why would you vote against everyone else in the state legislature? NICE: Well, they were wrong, and I knew they were wrong and I looked upon that opportunity as a great opportunity to vote against it. They would. . . It would end the public-school system if it was integrated in any way, and I wasn&#039 ; t about to vote otherwise. So I looked upon it as a great opportunity. HUNTLEY: What was the relationship, then, with other members after you would not make this a unanimous vote? NICE: Well, you know the big corporations would go by--would come by in the morning and invite various legislators out for lunch--the power company and all the other utility companies--and they would just come by me and walk on past. And, so, usually I was eating alone, although there was Pat Vacca there who was a friend and he ate with me a lot, or I&#039 ; d go out and see somebody in town that I knew who was a friend of mine. HUNTLEY: You were sort of isolated then? NICE: I was isolated. And then, I don&#039 ; t know, but it didn&#039 ; t always stand up. Some days one of them would ask me out. He wouldn&#039 ; t have any lunch plans. I don&#039 ; t recall the issues exactly. HUNTLEY: Here&#039 ; s another one on August 13, 1957: &#039 ; The House of Representatives in another move to protect the schools of Alabama against U. S. Supreme Court&#039 ; s integration decision, passed by a vote of 91 to one the Boutwell Public School Pupil Placement Law. Mr. Charles Nice, again, was the only member of the House who voted against this Pupil Placement Law, a measure to uphold and safeguard Alabama&#039 ; s school segregation policy.&#039 ; You again vote against all of your fellow legislators. Why? NICE: Because I knew I was right. (begins to get emotional) Excuse me, since I&#039 ; ve had that stroke, I get a little sentimental. You&#039 ; ll have to excuse me and cut that off if my voice cracks too much. HUNTLEY: Yes. But that took courage. NICE: Well, look what an opportunity I had. My son, when this article came out. . . What is the book that was written on Alabama history, you know by Wayne...? HUNTLEY: Wayne Flynt, yes. NICE: My son, who is about thirty, said to me one night, he said, &#039 ; Dad&#039 ; --and he mentioned the fellow&#039 ; s name, but I forget who it was--&#039 ; said to me,&#039 ; and, incidentally, it&#039 ; s the only time I think I&#039 ; ve ever heard anybody refer to that book-- He said, &#039 ; This friend said to me, where did your dad get such courage? And, I just had to tell him, that didn&#039 ; t take courage, he couldn&#039 ; t have done otherwise.&#039 ; That&#039 ; s what he said. And, that&#039 ; s true. HUNTLEY: So you just felt that this was. . . You were duty bound. NICE: Oh, yeah. It was-- I mean, it was an idea whose time had come and passed several hundred years. . . whose time had come and I wasn&#039 ; t going to let it get by. I knew, basically, one, that it was right regardless of the other--of how many voted with me or with nobody voting. I knew it was a time that had come and I was going to be on the right side. (voice cracks) Excuse my voice cracking up. It wouldn&#039 ; t have done like this a year ago. HUNTLEY: Yes. What, then, after this race, after these votes that you are taking, what kind of repercussions did you? NICE: Well, it really wasn&#039 ; t as bad as you&#039 ; d expect. I mean, I got home and people didn&#039 ; t come up to me and say, &#039 ; What about your vote.?&#039 ; I think I had a few people in downtown who mentioned it to me that they didn&#039 ; t like it or something, but it wasn&#039 ; t very much. Really, the papers didn&#039 ; t give this much play. I&#039 ; m surprised, but the [Birmingham]News. . . and I would have been so proud for them to say something. It seems like every time I was proud of something the News wouldn&#039 ; t mention it. HUNTLEY: They wouldn&#039 ; t publish that? NICE: They wouldn&#039 ; t publish it if I was proud of it, and I was proud of this. HUNTLEY: Well, after that, was it directly after that that you, then, went out to Fultondale, I believe? Were you a judge in Fultondale? NICE: Yes, I was a judge in Fultondale. I&#039 ; d go out there one day a week for a number of years. HUNTLEY: And you were in private [law] practice? NICE: I was in private practice. I may have done other things at the time. I may have gone out there when I was with Judge. . . No, I didn&#039 ; t. I think I was just in private practice. HUNTLEY: Tell me. This is really the same time, approximately the same time, that the Movement is sort of escalating in Birmingham and, of course, in 1960 we have the sit-ins around the South. In &#039 ; 61 the Freedom Riders would visit Birmingham. . . NICE: There two things I want to say. Can I interject at this time? HUNTLEY: Sure, absolutely. NICE: A lot of times, when my friends-- What&#039 ; s the fellow&#039 ; s name who is Mayor of Birmingham right then? HUNTLEY: Boutwell. NICE: Right after Boutwell, the White fellow that was. . . HUNTLEY: Art Haynes? NICE: Before Art Haynes. This was a liberal that still represents the city as a lawyer. HUNTLEY: Oh, Vann--David Vann. NICE: David Vann. HUNTLEY: Okay. NICE: A lot of times they were involved in things and I wanted to join them, but I kept--played a low key because I wanted to go back to the legislature. I wanted to run for a judgeship and I didn&#039 ; t know when that would. . . might come. And, so, I was going to stay a little quiet. So, a lot of those things I helped David some on-- When they changed the laws of the city, I did help some from the Young Men&#039 ; s Business Club. Now, the other thing I want to mention about. . . and this has never come out and I don&#039 ; t why. When they condemned the United States Supreme Court, the legislature did-- I cast the only vote, I think we read that. . . I cast the only vote against that, condemning--so I--They condemned the Supreme Court of the United States and that was right when the other votes were taken. And yet, those...those actions, that and the others must have been taken out of the books and destroyed, because there&#039 ; s no record of it that I know of. Now, whether if somebody could find it in the newspapers in Montgomery or some other place, I don&#039 ; t know. HUNTLEY: It&#039 ; s probably. . . it&#039 ; s probably listed. We&#039 ; ll just have to find it. But it does say here that &#039 ; On August 28, 1962, Mr. Charles Nice again swept all of the Negro boxes.&#039 ; For example, in Precinct 9. . . NICE: And the reason the Birmingham News put that in is &#039 ; cause they knew it&#039 ; d hurt me in Mountain Brook and all the White sections and they wanted to do all the damage. So whereas I was proud of that, it would keep me from getting the White vote, and I had to have the White vote also. HUNTLEY: In Legion Field you received 553 votes to 31 votes for your opponent, so in each of the Black boxes you won, but you could not do the same in the White boxes? NICE: Yes, and you know. . . I never understood-- When I became a judge and ran and in my last race Sandra Ross defeated me and I&#039 ; ve always. . . and the Mayor, the present Mayor-- HUNTLEY: Arrington? NICE: Arrington. He told her-- He gave her the freedom to get into the race. I mean, he told her to come on, get in the race and he would support her against me. He had been my friend. He told me he liked my votes against segr. . . against capital punishment. I had supported him in his race. I&#039 ; d contributed some money. I&#039 ; d been with, what&#039 ; s his name that was my good friend. . . I&#039 ; ll get it right here, just a second. . . but was a good friend of his too. Yeah, I&#039 ; ve got it right here. Charles Merriweather was my good friend and there the Mayor got Sandra Ross in the race, told her he&#039 ; d give the Black support to her, and she got in five minutes before the election boxes were closed. She had told me that she wasn&#039 ; t going to run against me. She was in the office with my assistant, whatever they call them. So, she ran and defeated me and as soon as she got in the race, as Charles Merriweather told me, he said, &#039 ; You can&#039 ; t win now.&#039 ; And others told me that, because you&#039 ; re going to lose the Black vote. I was hoping that I could get the Black vote with about 60 and I felt sure I&#039 ; d get 60-70 percent of the Black vote and just may be 40 percent of the White vote. I wasn&#039 ; t going get the majority. I knew that, but I had to have the overwhelming Black vote and I would have had another term. And here, on all my cases, when I was in the. . . As a judge, when I was acting as a judge, every single time the jury gave death, I commuted it to life imprisonment without parole. That&#039 ; s the only alternative I had. I was against capital punishment. HUNTLEY: You were opposed to capital punishment. NICE: I was opposed to capital punishment. I commuted every single one of them and we had two or three very bad ones, so I thought Arrington would be with me. And when I became the Judge of the Family Court, every time a White was tried for a case. . . I mean a Black was tried for a case in which he could be given the electric chair, White or Black, if they were a minor, and that&#039 ; s all that was tried out there, I would not let that child be tried as an adult. If they were tried as an adult, White or Black, they could be sent to the electric chair, and I knew that Blacks had a good chance of going to the electric chair on a capital case where the. . . kids are not charged with that. So, I would try it myself. Then, if I found them guilty, I would send them off for a year. I&#039 ; d put on there three years, but they. . . if the courts, the Superior Courts. . . they could pay no attention to that. Because, all the law required was about a year and the public was furious. The guy commits somebody and then he&#039 ; d get let off in a year, but I was not going to let that fellow be tried by an adult court because if he was given the electric chair, that is a sentence. It might be granted, and I didn&#039 ; t believe in that. HUNTLEY: Why do you think the Mayor opposed you or supported your opponent? NICE: I don&#039 ; t know. I mean, it was politics and he was able to work out a deal. Some business men had told me they were going to defeat me because they were tired of this crime and I know the people were concerned about it, but. . . capital punishment is not going to end crime. And I&#039 ; d do the same thing today and I think they just went to the Mayor and worked out some deal with him and so he supported Sandra Ross. Sandra Ross had not been in the legislature. She&#039 ; s a fine person, but she had never had the opportunities I had and she had never commuted cases of Blacks, like I had and, and. . . So I&#039 ; ll never know the answer to that--why he turned against me. I thought he was my ally. He had said to me that he. . . he liked my stand on capital punishment and Merriweather, who was working with me, was his good friend and I&#039 ; d been to fund raising meetings with Merriweather for him, so I don&#039 ; t know what the grounds for that were and I&#039 ; d like to know. Merriweather said, &#039 ; Don&#039 ; t ever speak. . . don&#039 ; t ever say anything to him about it,&#039 ; and I didn&#039 ; t. I tried to, but I couldn&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: Your involvement-- During this time, you were obviously one of the civic leaders that had tried to change the--really the landscape of Birmingham&#039 ; s race relationships. Did you have any involvement with any of the Civil Rights leaders in Birmingham in the early &#039 ; 60s? NICE: I did not. I would like to have had. You mean the out of state leaders? HUNTLEY: In state. NICE: In state. Well, I mean, the people around Birmingham I knew and I was probably in luncheons with them. HUNTLEY: What about Fred Shuttlesworth? Did you know Fred in those early days? NICE: I wouldn&#039 ; t say in the early days I did, but I did know him ten or fifteen years ago and I&#039 ; d go out to see him to get his support for my elections and things like that. And, I would see him when he would come down here. . . at some of the civil rights meetings. . . when he&#039 ; d come down-- Where is he? HUNTLEY: He&#039 ; s in Cincinnati. NICE: Cincinnati? HUNTLEY: Right. NICE: When he&#039 ; d come home, I would see him. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the April and May of 1963 during the demonstrations that were taking place here in the area now that we are calling the Civil Rights District--the marches, the police? NICE: I went to some of those. For two or three years I was with the U.S. Attorney&#039 ; s Office and I had-- One of my jobs was to go down, stand on the street there and keep an eye. . . just keep my eyes open to what was going on and report back to Washington in case they needed to send any support down here to stop it and all. And there was one person that was in charge of that. When he left then I did it for a while, so I did see some of the things. I didn&#039 ; t see the bad days, but I did see some and I would call Washington and tell them what I&#039 ; d seen. HUNTLEY: You&#039 ; d give a report to Washington about what was taking place in the streets of Birmingham. NICE: I was really the assistant of the one who did that, but I did do it on some occasions. I was to let them know how bad it was getting and then about that time, it was the election and I guess it was Nixon that won and I was out of office. HUNTLEY: What church were you attending at that time? NICE: I was raised as a Presbyterian [on the] Southside there. HUNTLEY: Was your church--? During this time, what was the stance of the church on civil rights activities that were taking place? NICE: I don&#039 ; t remember any stance. I don&#039 ; t think they did anything. They just preached the regular things, but I mean, that wasn&#039 ; t considered one of the things, and its always. . . I&#039 ; ve always wondered why the churches didn&#039 ; t take a more active stance. We used to-- You see, ministers, more than anybody else, can hardly stand to take a position that&#039 ; s contrary to their congregation. If it&#039 ; s in any way radical or out of line then they are going to be removed. It&#039 ; s unfortunate. I&#039 ; ve always wondered, &#039 ; Why don&#039 ; t they take a stand? Why don&#039 ; t they say something about this?&#039 ; It&#039 ; s simply that they won&#039 ; t be there if they do. HUNTLEY: So, they were basically following their congregation rather than leading the congregation. NICE: That&#039 ; s right, absolutely. And you had some good men, but they just weren&#039 ; t going to do that and they would say, &#039 ; Well, I have to stay away from it so I can keep my job.&#039 ; I mean, that&#039 ; s what they were thinking to themselves, I imagine. HUNTLEY: What role would you say Birmingham has played in changing the status quo of race relations in this country? NICE: Very little. And your leading businessmen, who could have taken it with impunity, probably, didn&#039 ; t do anything. Yet they got some credit for some things I thought were little or nothing, what they did at the end when the real changes were made. HUNTLEY: Do you think that efforts of civil rights activists in Birmingham had an impact on the changing of the status quo in the South? NICE: Absolutely. It wouldn&#039 ; t have occurred if it didn&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: Did you agree with what was going on at the time that the demonstrations were going on? The sit-ins, the. . . NICE: I knew that if they didn&#039 ; t do those things, things wouldn&#039 ; t be changed. HUNTLEY: Were there discussions among your contemporaries about what was going on? NICE: Well, the fellows my age, Chuck Morgan and others, were generally favorable. It was just understood that. . . I think that we recognized they were right, but I don&#039 ; t recall there was much being said. It was just understood they were right and we weren&#039 ; t critical, but we were watching everything. HUNTLEY: Chuck Morgan, of course, took some active-- He took an active role and, in fact, he had to leave Birmingham as a result of his role that he took. NICE: To have full years of himself and his abilities and all, he left. But, I don&#039 ; t know. He could have stayed here. He would have had a tough time getting elected to anything but I was there at the meeting at the Young Men&#039 ; s Business Club the day he spoke after the church was bombed and the two girls killed. I was there when he spoke out that day and I--and, really, most of the fellows in the Young Men&#039 ; s Business Club were fairly liberal and I was president of that and I got speakers there. HUNTLEY: Yes, because that was one of the areas that you were quite actively involved in, the Young Men&#039 ; s Business Club. NICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: If you could turn the clock back and would become a chief advisor to the powers that were in Birmingham at the time, how would you advise them, as the Movement progressed? NICE: I would do what I could to slowly push them a little faster. There&#039 ; s only so much you can do. You&#039 ; ll be completely ineffective if you go too far, but everything they did that was a little liberal, if you could say, &#039 ; That&#039 ; s the right thing. That&#039 ; s good,&#039 ; and encourage them on that and encourage them a little more, a little more, a little more. . . But, there&#039 ; s only so much you can do with people to get them to move. HUNTLEY: One of your friends said that you were &#039 ; a man ahead of his times.&#039 ; Do you think if you had come along a little bit later, when things had changed, that you would have been able to spend more time in the legislature and possibly do more for. . .? NICE: I would have liked to. I mean, I wanted a political career and I was stopped right there. HUNTLEY: Do you regret what you did? NICE: No. No, because I couldn&#039 ; t have lived with myself if I had voted other than the way I did on that occasion. I knew I was right and I just don&#039 ; t . . . what time it is. How would I have? What if I had said that morning, &#039 ; Well, just hold off. Just don&#039 ; t vote on this, because not only does that represent the vote, but there were several that weren&#039 ; t there. Ten or twelve of fifteen weren&#039 ; t there. They just didn&#039 ; t show up that day. They knew the vote was going to take place and people urged me, &#039 ; Just don&#039 ; t go that day. Stay out of it.&#039 ; And I could have been elected again, but I couldn&#039 ; t have lived with myself. I mean I felt so strongly-- HUNTLEY: Well, I sure. . . NICE: I&#039 ; m not trying to be noble about it, but I mean that&#039 ; s just a fact. HUNTLEY: Those are facts that I think will have to come out and will really be highlighted. And, that&#039 ; s what we are attempting to do, really--to get information from individuals like yourself who had a role to play and played that role well. What we want to do is to have that information in the archives at the Civil Rights Institute so that scholars can come in and take a look at it. NICE: I wish they could have seen me when I wasn&#039 ; t. . . when I hadn&#039 ; t had this stroke and I was a stronger person and I could think better--could express myself better. HUNTLEY: Sure. NICE: But one thing I do want to tell you, the whole time in the legislature, that four years, I could go in. . . to where the votes were taking place. . . the House and there were some of the big law firms of Alabama--Cabaniss and Johnson were the main ones. They had their leaders, their people down there. They would go out to the other states around here, South Carolina, they&#039 ; d go to Georgia and they would coordinate all their work together and that should be emphasized. Theirs&#039 ; were the brains behind these bills. HUNTLEY: The big law firms? NICE: The big law firms. They were doing the work, and Albert Boutwell, he was coordinating it, getting it together, getting the bills ready. . . seeing that they were timed with other states. I mean, I&#039 ; m putting in my words then, but I know Cabaniss and Johnson were down here and maybe other law firms, too. I saw those people. I knew them and I. . . They were down there and that&#039 ; s what they were doing, working with other states. So that should never be overlooked. The law firms from the big states of the South were working together to coordinate this system. HUNTLEY: To continue this system of segregation? NICE: Yes. . . and the ideas came from these other states working with them and they would come here with Englehardt from one of the southern states and Boutwell and two or three others. They would get together. HUNTLEY: Right. That&#039 ; s really important because that&#039 ; s really not emphasized. NICE: Yes and I mean I recognized those fellows. I&#039 ; d seen them in Birmingham when I was a law clerk to Judge Lynn. I saw those lawyers, I knew who they were and I spoke to them and they spoke to me, so I know it was Cabaniss and Johnson and may be some other firms too, but they were the principle firm that were working. HUNTLEY: Well, Judge Nice, I want to thank you again for coming out today, taking the time and sitting and giving us this information. I appreciate this written material as well. This will go into the archives and if there is anything else that you&#039 ; d have that you would like to donate. . . NICE: I might find something and I&#039 ; ll call you if I do. HUNTLEY: We would very much like to have it. Thank you very much. NICE: Thank you so much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CNice1995.xml CNice1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Judge Charles Nice Description An account of the resource Judge Charles Nice discusses his career and his efforts to end segregation in the Alabama State Legislature. He went on to work with Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth to make local change. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950323N Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Pupil Placement Law Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-03-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/c240aa3c487a83c25b07b08dd73b228a.jpg 481b819ebc7db8a14e8d439a21419ace Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Binnie Myles Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kathleen Bunton OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=KBunton1996.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Byers Hill OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 September 6, 1996 Kathleen Bunton Interviewed on September 6, 1996 19960906BK 0:34:46 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Laura Benton Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Farming Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Voter registration Byers Hill Kathleen Bunton Binnie Myles Video 1:|19(8)|44(2)|65(10)|87(2)|101(4)|124(17)|152(6)|173(2)|189(4)|212(16)|234(3)|246(7)|276(10)|293(12)|317(14)|331(7)|347(5)|370(13)|387(7)|401(5)|410(11)|420(11)|437(4)|452(3)|468(1)|481(4)|498(1)|513(12)|522(11)|535(15)|549(16)|560(11)|572(4)|585(7) 0 https://youtu.be/pE83ZdDUZws YouTube video English 0 Introduction This is an interview with Kathleen Bunton for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Introduction to the interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history ; Oral history project Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ The homepage of the BCRI 21 Personal Background / Growing Up in Birmingham Good. I want to talk to you a little bit about your background. Discussion of growing up in Birmingham and knowing Mr. Byers. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Byers Hill ; North Birmingham ; Old Hillman Hospital ; Trussville (Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Hillman Hospital ; Trussville (Ala.) 95 Early Education So you went to school real early? Mrs. Bunton discusses her first years at school and the reason why she attended a different school than the rest of her siblings when she was young. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Byers Hill ; Hooper City ; Hudson Elementary ; Motion sickness Birmingham (Ala.) ; Motion sickness 177 Mr. Byers and Family When you lived in the area of Byers Hill and you said you knew Mr. Byers. Discussion of knowing Mr. Byers and his family when she lived in the Byers Hill area. Byers Hill ; family ; land 220 Early Education cont. / Community How many blocks did you walk to school? Discussion of elementary school experience and relationship with teachers as well as other children in the community. children ; community ; elementary school ; Elementary school teachers Elementary school teachers 316 Family Life How large was your family? How many brothers and sisters? Discussion of family size and parent's occupations. Community and school ; community school ; family ; Father ; large family ; Mother ; pipe shop ; Tarrant City (Ala.) Community and school ; Father ; Mother ; Tarrant City (Ala.) 372 Farm Life / Childhood at Home At the time we were average. My dad did a lot of farming. Discussion of childhood on the family farm. Chickens ; Childhood ; Chores ; Cows ; dairy ; Farming ; Father ; hogs ; Milk ; milking cows ; Piglets ; Pigs ; spanking ; sustainable farming Chickens ; Childhood ; Chores ; Cows ; Father ; Milk ; Piglets ; Pigs 627 Butchering Hogs / Meat Smoking No. We always had our own. During the winter months my dad would kill the hogs and we had an opportunity to observe the killing. Discussion of hog butchering process, meat smoking and farm community. butchering ; Chickens ; community ; Eggs ; Farm life ; Hogs ; Livestock ; Meat smoking ; Roosters ; smokehouse ; Sustainability Chickens ; Eggs ; Farm life ; Livestock ; Meat ; Roosters ; Sustainability 777 Community Farming and Sustainability When you look back at your childhood and you look at communities, we've had people say that there was a sense of community, that if there were others in the neighborhood that didn't have, you shared. Discussion about the sense of community within Mrs. Bunton's childhood neighborhood. Butter ; churn ; community ; Farm life ; farming ; Milk ; neighborhood ; Neighbors ; sharing ; Sustainability ; Vegetables ; Volunteer Butter ; Farm life ; Milk ; Neighbors ; Sustainability ; Vegetables ; Volunteer 849 Church Life at Mount Calvary Baptist Was your family involved in church while you were growing up? Discussion of time attending Mount Calvary Baptist church as a child. baptist ; Childhood ; Christmas ; church ; Easter ; mount calvary baptist ; sunday school Childhood ; Christmas ; Easter 901 Civil Rights Movement and Racial Issues How did you find out about the Movement when you were growing up? Discussion of racial issues encountered by parents as well as awareness of these issues and the Civil Rights Movement at a young age. christian movement ; Civil rights movement ; community ; education ; Father ; Mother ; pride ; Race awareness ; racial issues ; Social status ; white privilege Civil rights movement ; Father ; Mother ; Race awareness ; Social status 1222 Mass Meetings / Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights How did you get involved? Did you go to the mass meetings? Discussion of experience attending mass meetings and the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham News ; christian movement ; Civil rights movement ; Human rights ; mass meetings ; Voter registration Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham News ; Civil rights movement ; Human rights ; Voter registration 1344 Mother's Participation in Marches and Time in Jail Did your parents participate? Discussion of her mother's time participating in Civil Rights marches and spending some time in jail as a result. Civil rights ; Civil rights movement ; family ; jail ; Marches ; Marching ; Mother Civil rights ; Civil rights movement ; family ; jail ; Marches ; Marching ; Mother 1482 Involvement in Voter's Registration / Life at Miles College How involved did you become in registering? Discussion of becoming involved in voter's registration drives while attending Miles College. college ; Miles College ; polls ; registration ; voters registration ; Voting Miles College ; Voting 1615 Frustrations About Voters Today / Importance of Voting History When you look at voting and registering then and you look at it now, trying to get people to vote, what do you think? Discussion of the frustrations felt when seeing how younger generations treat voting and the importance of teaching the sacrifices and struggles of achieving the right to vote. children ; Civil rights movement ; Civil rights--History ; history ; registration ; sacrifices ; struggles ; teaching ; voters history ; Voting ; voting history ; young people Civil rights movement ; Civil rights--History ; Voting 1831 Thoughts on Rev. Shuttlesworth and the Civil Rights Institute You mentioned Rev. Shuttlesworth and the things he did, and even the things that he's doing now. What do you think of Rev. Shuttlesworth? Discussion of appreciation for Rev. Shuttlesworth and the work that he has done ; as well as the excitement for the establishment of the Civil Rights Institute. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; children ; class ; parents ; sacrifices Birmingham (Ala.)--Maps ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 1973 Jefferson County School Field Trip / Closing Remarks What school was this? Discussion of the response of parents and children after visiting the Civil Rights Institute, the importance of visiting a place like the Institute and closing remarks. Appreciation ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; children ; field trip ; parents Appreciation ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil rights ; Civil rights movement Oral History Kathleen Bunton discusses growing up working the family farm before getting involved with ACMHR, attending mass meetings, and working on voter registration. Her mother was also involved in the Movement and was arrested for her efforts. MYLES: This is an interview with Kathleen Bunton for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. This is Friday, September 6, 1996. I am Binnie Myles. How are you, Mrs. Bunton? BUNTON: Just fine. MYLES: Good. I want to talk a little bit about your background. Are you from Birmingham? BUNTON: Yes, I am. MYLES: In what section of the city were your born? BUNTON: North Birmingham, out in that area. Actually, we resided in Trussville, but I was born here in Birmingham. MYLES: What hospital, do you remember? BUNTON: University. At that time it was Old Hillman Hospital. MYLES: And you grew up in North Birmingham? BUNTON: Yes, it was in an area identified as Byers Hill. MYLES: Yes, in fact we found out that Byers Hill had several names, but there was man by the name of Mr. Byers or something. BUNTON: Right. MYLES: Did you ever know him? BUNTON: Yes, I knew him very well and all his family members. MYLES: What age can you go back to? BUNTON: Probably about five. I had gone to school a year in Trussville, Alabama. MYLES: So you went to school real early? BUNTON: Yes. My mother was very friendly with the principal and, ofcourse I had an older sister who attended school. She was in 1st grade. I was not old enough to go and I would cry everyday. And, the principal said, &quot ; Well, let her come with her.&quot ; So, my mother let me go to school with my older sister. I had done so well that she decided to promote me. MYLES: What age were you when you started school in the Byers Hill area? BUNTON: I was seven years old. MYLES: So you got promoted to the next grade? BUNTON: Yes. The next year we moved to Birmingham, but I went to Hudson Elementary. No, I guess I was six. And, then the rest of my family went to Hooper City. I had a problem with motion sickness and I could not ride the bus. MYLES: When you were a little girl? BUNTON: Very little. MYLES: So what happened when you would get on the bus? BUNTON: I would get so nauseated, I couldn&#039 ; t stand it, so the doctor assured my mother that after about a year I would be able to ride the bus, that was something I would grow out of. So, I went from our house to Hudson Elementary School, alone. I would never let my kids travel that far now. MYLES: When you lived in the area of Byers Hill and you said you knew Mr. Byers. BUNTON: Yes, I did. MYLES: Did he live on a hill? BUNTON: They were a large family in the community. And they were well known. When we moved there they had named it, but I learned they were named for the Byers. They were a very large family. They had a lot of land in that particular area. MYLES: When you say a large family, does it mean it was a lot of kids? BUNTON: They had a lot of children. MYLES: How many blocks did you walk to school? BUNTON: It was at least two miles from my house. MYLES: Did you go with other kids? BUNTON: There were other kids that I walked with, so I was not really alone. MYLES: But, during that time, and it&#039 ; s not to imply in any way that you&#039 ; re an old woman, it means that the times that we grow up, different times dictate different kinds of things. So it was more of a community, would you say? BUNTON: Yes, it was more of a community, and I must admit I didn&#039 ; t think about it. Of course, I wouldn&#039 ; t have had any thoughts about being afraid of something happening, like I would have that fear today. Nothing ever happened. But, I&#039 ; m just thinking how different it is now. You just wouldn&#039 ; t feel safe with a child that young walking that far. I wouldn&#039 ; t. MYLES: What do you remember in elementary school? What were the teachers like? BUNTON: I remember I loved school. I always did. I always wanted to go to school. I had so much admiration for my teachers. Whatever they said was just the last word. I kind of remember how the teachers would cuddle you. Every child was almost personal with teachers and I think I sort of enjoyed that. I was from a large family and you didn&#039 ; t get a whole lot of personal attention, it had to go around. MYLES: How large was your family? How many sisters and brothers? BUNTON: I had six brothers and I have five sisters. MYLES: Twelve children? BUNTON: Yes. MYLES: Where did you fit in the 12? BUNTON: I was number four. I&#039 ; m the fourth girl. All my brothers are younger. I have six brothers younger than I am, so I got a chance to be momma at a very early age. MYLES: Did your mom work outside of the home? BUNTON: My mom worked outside of the home. At one time she was a lunch room manager at the community school there. I don&#039 ; t know how she found time to do that, but she did work outside. My father worked out at the pipe shop in Tarrant City. MYLES: So when he worked at the pipe shop and your mom worked in the school, was your family considered kind of wealthy? BUNTON: No. MYLES: You were considered average. BUNTON: At that time we were average. My dad did a lot of farming. MYLES: What kind of things did he farm? BUNTON: All kinds of vegetables. As a matter of fact, he practically grew all of our food. We had our own hogs, our own cows, our own chickens. MYLES: Did you help out on the farm? BUNTON: Yes. You didn&#039 ; t have a choice. MYLES: What was your job? BUNTON: Not one job, there were many jobs. Mainly I helped a lot with the children, among other things. But, we had so many chores to do, we had to help with all of them. We had to milk the cows. MYLES: What age were you when you did that? BUNTON: I was 12 or 13. My dad taught us at an early age. MYLES: Was it fun? BUNTON: It wasn&#039 ; t hard. It was something else to do and, of course we made fun out of everything. MYLES: How did you make fun out of milking cows? BUNTON: Well, my brother, who was a year younger loved to have milk right out of the cows, so he would bring his glass to get the milk. I couldn&#039 ; t drink milk like that. It would have to be real cold. A lot of times, we get together and we laugh about it, it was so much fun. MYLES: It sounds like it was a wonderful childhood. BUNTON: It was. MYLES: About the cows, did they have names? BUNTON: For some reason or another I do not remember them. I know we called a cow Daisy. Cows are very strange and very clean animals. MYLES: ·How are they strange? BUNTON: I remember we would have to put water in this tub for the cow. Daddy would tell us how we always had to wash this tub, they are very clean. Ifthey would smell any kind of odor, they would not drink. And we must have had the cleanest cow in the world. You know, as kids, you didn&#039 ; t always want to wash that tub real clean, just put a little water in there and she would smell down in there and she wouldn&#039 ; t drink. MYLES: So you had to go back and re-do it? BUNTON: Yes. We would laugh about it. We thought it was funny that the cow wouldn&#039 ; t drink, but daddy had told us it had to be clean. And, so in the afternoon when he came home if that cow would consume an entire tub of water, he knew that the cow hadn&#039 ; t had water during the day. So that meant we were in trouble. MYLES: Would you get a spanking? BUNTON: Yes. We laugh about it as we got older. We said we wouldn&#039 ; t have a cow. MYLES: You know today we choose our words carefully when you talk about spanking because we hear so much about abuse to children, but growing up at that time you got a whipping or you got a beating. Who did the spanking? BUNTON: My dad. MYLES: With a belt, switch or hand? BUNTON: Well, it was so funny. He would always send us to get a switch. He would let us go get our switch ourselves. You go bring your switch to me. MYLES: You wanted to get the smallest one? BUNTON: Right. MYLES: Did you have to go back and get another one? BUNTON: Well, that depended on the mood daddy was in. But, he really taught us something. MYLES: Now, what&#039 ; s the difference between a hog or a pig? Is there a difference, do you know? BUNTON: A pig is very small. MYLES: Did your hogs ever have little piglets? BUNTON: Yes. MYLES: Did you all like that? Did you play with the pigs? BUNTON: No, we didn&#039 ; t play with them. As a matter of fact, we had to help feed them. Of course, later on they fed us. MYLES: Did they have names? BUNTON: No. We always had our own. During the winter months my dad would kill the hogs and we had an opportunity to observe the killing. Some of my brothers and sisters would kind of cry. It seemed so horrible. But, the way it was done, it was interesting to watch all the things. I kind of wish my grandkids could observe how it happen. MYLES: How do they do it? I mean the short version. BUNTON: He would build a fire under an iron pot and get the water scalding hot. They would take the water out of the pot and have these burlap bags handy. But, in the meantime, before putting the water on, they would always hit the hog in the head with a hammer to knock the hog out. Then they would take the scalding water and pour it over it and, then someone with knives would come and take all the hair off the hogs. MYLES: That was very interesting. BUNTON: It was. MYLES: And they would go on to prepare it? BUNTON: Yes, they would have to stab the hog and let all the blood drain. We had a smoke house where the meat was smoked. MYLES: Now, a smoke house, when people listen and hear this today, a lot of children and even some adults don&#039 ; t know ; what is a smokehouse. BUNTON: Well, after they had killed the hogs and cut the hams and things into pieces, you would hang it and they would smoke it in this little house. You would have this delicious smoke taste. MYLES: Is it like anything you&#039 ; ve tasted today? BUNTON: It&#039 ; s not near as good today. I don&#039 ; t think any of the meat tasted like my dad&#039 ; s. MYLES: So everybody got together to help mom and daddy? BUNTON: Actually the children didn&#039 ; t play a big part in that because there were other men in the community. They all aided each other. There were others who had hogs. MYLES: So you had hogs, pigs, cows and chickens. BUNTON: Yes. MYLES: Would your chickens lay eggs? BUNTON: Sure. MYLES: And you had the eggs from the hen house? BUNTON: Yes. MYLES: How many roosters did you have? BUNTON: Yes, we had roosters. I don&#039 ; t remember the number. MYLES: When you look back at your childhood and you look at communities, we&#039 ; ve had people say that there was a sense of community, that if there were others in the neighborhood that didn&#039 ; t have, you shared. BUNTON: Oh, yes. There was a great sense of community. People shared with their service. They would come in and if you were doing something and you didn&#039 ; t have to ask, people just volunteered their service. My mother gave very freely back to the community. Everybody waited for that hog meat, and milk and butter and eggs and vegetables. They just loved my dad&#039 ; s vegetables. We just shared with the whole community. MYLES: ·You made butter from the milk? BUNTON: Of course, we had to churn the butter from the milk. We saw a chum yesterday. My husband and I were browsing through a flea market and I saw this chum. He said, &quot ; Look at this, it makes you want to churn.&quot ; I said, &quot ; No.&quot ; MYLES: You had your churning days. BUNTON: Yes. I often say I paid my dues. MYLES: Are your parents still living? BUNTON: No. Both parents are deceased. MYLES: Was your family involved in church while you were growing up? BUNTON: Yes, we were involved in church. My mother was very involved. My father went, but not as regular as my mother. We all grew up in the church. MYLES: Do you remember what church you attended? BUNTON: It was Mount Calvary Baptist Church. That minister is deceased. MYLES: Did you go to Sunday School? BUNTON: We did. We went to the little plays at Christmas and Easter time. We were involved in that. Of course, there were problems getting the boys to go. They were always not wanting to. I happened to be one of the ones who always enjoyed it, my sister and I. Of course, in later years they would go. MYLES: How did you find about the Movement when you were growing up? BUNTON: My parents talked a great deal about the racial problems. Working on jobs, where my dad worked. Of course, they encountered a lot of things. They would talk to us about the problems as they existed between Blacks and Whites. MYLES: Do you remember any of the things that your parents may have said? BUNTON: I They would talk about situations where there was not fair treatment in the workplace. They would often talk about how they would shop in stores and they would always have to wait and they would take the White person in front of you. I remember this particular incident ; we were in the grocery store. One evening my father had gotten paid and my mom went to pick him up, and we stopped at a grocery store in the community to buy groceries. Of course, some of the smaller kids had begun to get tired. They were restless and my dad had the groceries and was placing them on the counter. And, as long as a White face came up, they went to wait on them first. By then my daddy had just really grown tired. He walked over to the man and he said I want you to check my groceries because I want to take my family home. He replied to him, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t you see Jesse, I&#039 ; m waiting on a White man?&quot ; MYLES: Did your dad reply at all? BUNTON: No. He was just so angry. I had never seen my dad that angry. MYLES: What did he say, do you remember? BUNTON: This man had been known for keeping a gun under his counter. So when my dad said what he did, he went to reach under his counter to get his gun and my daddy put his hand on top of the White man&#039 ; s hand. He came out of his pocket with brass knuckles. MYLES: Your dad did? BUNTON: Yes. He said, &quot ; Now, check my family out.&quot ; MYLES: What did the man do? BUNTON: He immediately checked our groceries. And the fun thing about this, as children we were sort of getting excited. My daddy was only like 5&#039 ; 2&quot ; . This man was a great big tall White man and we were real happy. MYLES: What age were you then? BUNTON: I must have been about 7 or 8, but I remember that very well? MYLES: Were you frightened or were you proud? BUNTON: I was never frightened in the presence of my parents. We had security. With my dad there... no, I was never afraid when he was around. MYLES: Do you ever remember if your dad went back to that store? BUNTON: I don&#039 ; t remember him going back. I remember him telling us we didn&#039 ; t have to patronize people like that. MYLES: I&#039 ; m sure by the time you got home everybody talked about what daddy did? BUNTON: Yes. He shared with us and he told us about other situations that he had encountered on the job and things like that. So ; we were very much aware and knowledgeable about racial situations. And, of course when the Christian Movement started, we started actively participating and attending the meetings. MYLES: Do you remember anything that your mother may have said that may have possibly happened to her either going to work or at work? BUNTON: I don&#039 ; t recall anything particular that my mother said. She worked for a short time at The Club. She was a salad maker. Other than that, she was a lunchroom manager in the Black school, so she didn&#039 ; t have those kind of encounters. MYLES: Did she every say anything about the grand parties at The Club? BUNTON: Well, you know at that particular time you just had a place and we stayed there. She worked at night. As a matter of fact, she was the lunchroom manager during the day. She would work in the morning. And, when she left school she would go to work from 4:00 p.m. to Midnight, so it was kind of hard. MYLES: I imagine your parents would stress the importance of education to their children. BUNTON: Yes. My mother talked a lot about getting an education and not having to deal with a lot of situations like they had to deal with, that that would be helpful. My dad was a hard working man. I think he would have been content if everybody just got a job. His parents passed at a very young age, so he had to help his mom a lot. But he told us he wanted us to go to school, but my mom stressed going to school. MYLES: How did you get involved? Did you go to the mass meetings? BUNTON: Yes, Monday nights were sort of reserved for the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. I learned so much at those meetings. I was so inspired by Rev. Shuttlesworth. It&#039 ; s like he always knew the things they would print in the paper, the statements that were being made, he would tell us. He always had a lot of humor. He was saying fun things. And he would say, &quot ; You can expect to see that in The Birmingham News.&quot ; And sure enough, that would be in there. But the way they would get out there and encourage members not to participate in any kind of violence, that we could not accomplish 9ur goal if we turned anyway violent. Now, if you felt like you had to be violent, maybe it&#039 ; s best that you don&#039 ; t attend this meeting. And they stressed that. But, that was not stated in the paper. But, if they made some little remark, or some little silly thing, that would be in the news. And, of course, they talked about jobs and the purpose. We knew the reason for this Movement. They encouraged voter registration and during the demonstrations they told us there was something everybody could do. There were people who were afraid to participate because of loss of jobs and things. And, of course, they even talked about if you&#039 ; re not going to be a participant and you&#039 ; re not going to do anything, you may help us by just being quiet, not talking it down. Not saying derogatory things about people who participate. These people were hard working people. MYLES: Did your parents participate? BUNTON: Yes, my mother did. My dad was not one in attendance, but he supported it wholeheartedly. So you can imagine with the whole family. But, of course, my mother was very much involved. MYLES: Did she ever do any marching? BUNTON: Yes, as a matter of fact, she did march and she went to jail for seven days. During that particular time, they would say everybody can&#039 ; t go to jail. If you&#039 ; re in the family, somebody has to run the house. There were other things that we had to do. MYLES: So who took care of the family when she went to jail? BUNTON: By that time most of them had grown up. But, then there were some smaller. I helped out a whole lot. My other sisters had married, but I was still home. MYLES: So when she went to jail, was that during the time that she was also employed? BUNTON: I&#039 ; m trying to remember. I don&#039 ; t think so. MYLES: So when she went to jail and when she got out, what did she share about her experiences? BUNTON: She told us about things that happened at night. How they would sing and how they prayed. It seemed like they had a good time. There were a lot of problems. There were people who had family members who were employed and were away from their jobs and some of those people lost their jobs. I don&#039 ; t recall my mom working at that particular time. She talked about what they would talk about at night time and how they were treated. Of course, &#039 ; the treatment wasn&#039 ; t that good at all. But, they were told things that they didn&#039 ; t need to say or they didn&#039 ; t do anything to antagonize the guards in the jail. MYLES: Did your mom stress the importance of voting? BUNTON: Yes. MYLES: How involved did you become in registering? BUNTON: Well, my mother and dad both stressed the importance of voting. While in college, I participated in voter registration drives. As a matter of fact, Dr. McPherson was dedicated man at that particular time. He talked to us at length about the importance of voting. And, he just didn&#039 ; t talk about it, he believed in doing something about it. He would take groups of students in various areas and we had to work that area. I remember working the area at Smithfield Projects. How we started and how many blocks I had to take care of and go knock on these doors. At that particular time, they had a long list of questions that you had to commit to memory. I remember studying those questions so hard so I can remember the answers so I could qualify to vote. I often wonder why that was. I thought that was so unnecessary. MYLES: Do you remember any of the questions that seemed so silly? BUNTON: I really don&#039 ; t. I just thought it was all so unnecessary. Why did you need to do that to register to vote? MYLES: You said you attended college. Where did you go? BUNTON: I attended Miles College and that&#039 ; s where I got involved with voter registration with Dr. McPherson. There were student groups out there who participated in the Alabama Christian Movement. And, of course, at that time the Movement would go around various area, where the churches would allow them to meet. There were some churches that wouldn&#039 ; t allow them to meet for whatever reason. I guess some of them were afraid and things of that nature and I can understand that. But, we participated a lot with voter registration and he asked that we continue that and keep encouraging other people and if somebody needs your assistance in getting to the polls. MYLES: When you look at voting and registering then and you look at it now, trying to get people to vote, what do you think? BUNTON: I think I have mixed emotions. I find myself getting angry because I know how hard it was and now it&#039 ; s so simple, I say, &quot ; Why won&#039 ; t they go and do it?&quot ; But, they don&#039 ; t know about all of this and that&#039 ; s why we have to teach our younger children about sacrifices that have been made for people to vote so that we can encourage them to vote. To let them know that this didn&#039 ; t come without sacrifice. That people really had to go through something in order to vote. MYLES: Do you think enough students today recognize or are taught enough or exposed enough to sacrifices and really know what it means for people like you, and it wasn&#039 ; t that long ago? BUNTON: I think that it does not make an impact upon them because they don&#039 ; t know the story. I think they need to know what has happened. It&#039 ; s strange how you feel about something. It&#039 ; s so easy to take things for granted. Our children come up now, they just don&#039 ; t know anything about hard times. They don&#039 ; t know how difficult things really were for our foreparents. MYLES: Do you think interviews like this would help? BUNTON: Well, I think getting things on a silver platter has been more hurtful than helpful in many instances, depending on the people. I&#039 ; m not saying that everybody has to catch it hard in order to appreciate it, I don&#039 ; t go with that. But sometimes we have to evaluate our situation with our children and see maybe there are some things we might do for one that we don&#039 ; t need to do for the other. So it would depend on the individuals. But, I think the more that we share these kinds of messages with them and to get them to understand us, I think it would have a great effect on them. MYLES: What did you say to your children? Do they know about the struggles? BUNTON: Oh, yes. They know about the struggles. I made sure they learned about the struggle. I wanted them to hear it from me. As a matter of fact, they think it&#039 ; s so hilarious when my brothers and sisters get together and we start telling the stories about all the work we had to do at home. We do that because when we can give them a little chore to do and it&#039 ; s like it&#039 ; s so difficult for them. I can remember I would have been so thrilled if l had a bed to myself. I would have thought I was in heaven. They don&#039 ; t realize how it was. They take all of what they have for granted. MYLES: Just like people take voting for granted. BUNTON: Yes, sure. I feel like we need to let them know it is really important. This is very important that you exercise that right to vote. MYLES: You mentioned Rev. Shuttlesworth and the things that he did, and even the things that he&#039 ; s doing now. What do you think of Rev. Shuttlesworth? BUNTON: I think that he is a wonderful man. Sometimes I don&#039 ; t think he&#039 ; s given the credit that he deserves. As a matter of fact, he made sacrifices beyond. When you sacrifice your life, that&#039 ; s all you have. And, that I know that he did. Actually he was very instrumental in getting all of this done here in Birmingham. He stood tall a long time ago. You would wonder, why isn&#039 ; t this man afraid? If there was fear in him, you could not tell it. MYLES: When you look back at what things occurred and when you see the Civil Rights Institute today, how did you feel? BUNTON: Well, having been familiar with so much of this it brought back a lot of memories. I never would have believed that this would have been established for the world to see. Nobody could have made me believe that this would come into play the way it has. I just. think this place is very unique. You can visit other places and none of them can touch this place. I couldn&#039 ; t wait to bring my class here. I really couldn&#039 ; t. I wanted my class to come here, because when I first came up with the idea of having the field trip and bringing the children here and taking them over to our church, I had a lot of interest from the parents. Then the word started getting around and the numbers started dwindling. That was an experience. Even the White parents who had been so supportive changed their minds. MYLES: What school was this? BUNTON: This was a Jefferson County School. And after this experience, these parents said to me that they could feel something. They were so touched and moved by this experienced until (Inaudible). MYLES: What do you say to people who live right here in Birmingham who have not visited the Institute? What would you say to get them to visit? BUNTON: Well, it&#039 ; s really their loss. They have really missed a lot by not visiting this Institute. But, I try to encourage people to come. After you get them to come, people would say they don&#039 ; t want to relive that. They say, &quot ; I&#039 ; ve heard what it was like and I have a difficult time with it.&quot ; I say, &quot ; But it makes you appreciate so much more when you come in and see. It gives you an appreciation for all of the things that we have.&quot ; We would go attend meetings over in Bessemer, Powderly and from here to Timbuctu and people would say to my husband and &#039 ; i, &quot ; Y&#039 ; all going to go way out there? To that mess?&quot ; Black people would say this. Now, when it&#039 ; s all coming together and, then when things started happening, those voices got softer. And, then they didn&#039 ; t want to acknowledge that they were not a part of &quot ; that mess&quot ; at that time. MYLES: Is there something that I didn&#039 ; t ask you that you would like to share with us before we close? BUNTON: I think you did a very good job of asking questions. But, this Institute, I just wish the entire world could see this Institute, I really do. MYLES: We certainly thank you for sharing with us today. BUNTON: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=KBunton1996.xml KBunton1996.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kathleen Bunton Description An account of the resource Kathleen Bunton discusses growing up working the family farm before getting involved with ACMHR, attending mass meetings, and working on voter registration. Her mother was also involved in the Movement and was arrested for her efforts. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19960906BK Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Farming Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Voter registration Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996-09-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/875f279eaa2d9de0f6d08f96314c52ea.jpg 9b9f0d62b302a758ca7229f48843fd7f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed LaVerne Revis Martin OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=LMMartin1996.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Birmingham (Ala.) OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.3 July 17, 1996 LaVerne Revis Martin Interviewed on July 17, 1996 1960717M 0:32:49 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Laura Benton African Americans--Civil rights Mass Meetings Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.) LaVerne Revis Martin Horace Huntley Video 1:|24(7)|52(4)|72(10)|95(6)|123(3)|142(8)|175(4)|198(7)|215(6)|234(8)|251(9)|275(2)|295(4)|319(2)|340(6)|358(4)|385(5)|401(2)|414(14)|427(6)|445(6)|461(5)|473(12)|484(11)|507(10)|526(2)|535(9)|555(10)|576(5)|593(10)|612(6) 0 https://youtu.be/pOqDhxBJR18 YouTube video English 63 Introduction to the Interview This is an interview with Mrs. LaVerne Revis Martin for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement Historical interview 33.516200, -86.813870 18 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org The homepage of the BCRI 85 Personal Background Information I would like to start by asking you a couple of general questions about your background. Were your mother and father from Alabama? Martin describes where her family grew up in Mississippi and their transition to Alabama. She describes how many siblings she had. She talks about growing up in the Collegeville neighborhood of Birmingham, Alabama, and going to school at Hudson Elementary School. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Meridian (Miss.) ; Mississippi ; Sumter County (Ala.) Background information ; Personal narratives 33.556803, -86.805719 17 Collegeville, Birmingham, Alabama Hudson Elementary School 180 Connection to Shelley Stewart Shelley Stewart went to Hudson. Martin describes her relationship to Shelley Stewart as school friends at Hudson Elementary School. She describes his connection to Bethel Baptist Church. Bethel Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Hudson Elementary School ; Stewart, Shelley, 1934- Stewart, Shelley, 1934- 33.556803, -86.805719 17 Hudson Elementary School Collegeville, Birmingham, Alabama 33.551662, -86.801935 17 Bethel Baptist Church Birmingham, Alabama 204 The Community of Collegeville (Birmingham, Ala.) In growing up in Collegeville, what kind of community was that? Martin provides a brief description of the community of Collegeville. She describes the major occupations held by people who lived in the area. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Collegeville Collegeville 33.551429, -86.804741 17 Collegeville, Birmingham, Alabama 247 Family Work &amp ; Educational Background What type of work did your mother do? Martin describes her mother and father's occupation. Her mother worked and owned Social Cleaners. Her father worked at U.S. Pipe and Foundry. Her grandmother owned a café. She talks about her mother's education at Parker Industrial High School. Martin talks about her educational journey from Hudson Elementary to the Annex and then to Parker High School. After high school, she attended State Vocational Trade School. Martin talks about getting married and raising children and grandchildren. She describes growing up in the area near Bethel Baptist church. 21st century entrepreneur ; American woman entrepreneur American family 33.539795, -86.875216 17 U.S. Pipe and Foundry Co. Birmingham, Alabama 33.515689, -86.829499 17 A.H. Parker High School Birmingham, Alabama 33.556696, -86.805719 17 Hudson Elementary School Collegeville, Birmingham, Alabama 33.551679, -86.801994 17 Bethel Baptist Church Birmingham, Alabama 420 Father's Role as an Activist in the Movement And, your father was actively involved in the Movement. How was he affiliated? Martin describes her father's role as Executive Board Member of the Alabama Christian Movement for Civil Rights. She describes his role as President of the Park and Recreation Board for Collegeville. He was an activist in the march from Selma to Montgomery, Alabama. African Americans--Civil rights ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Civil rights movement ; Civil rights movements--Southern States--History--20th century ; Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) African Americans--Civil rights ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Civil rights ; Civil Rights Activist 32.405496, -87.018397 17 Selma, Alabama 525 Bethel Baptist Church Bombings Let's back up just a bit, because a lot took place before 1965. You, now living so close to the church, the church was bombed on several occasions, were you a witness to any of that activity? Martin describes the scene of the second bombing on the Bethel Baptist Church and seeing it go off from her porch. She talks about the men who were guarding the church that night ; John L. Lewis and Colonel Johnson. Bethel Bapist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Church Bombings ; Johnson, Colonel Stone, 1918- ; Lewis, John L. Church bombings ; Civil rights movement 33.551521, -86.801957 17 Bethel Baptist Church Birmingham, Alabama 704 Mass Meetings I assume you attended mass meetings? Martin describes the mass meetings that were often held at different churches. Her father, two sisters and a brother attended the meetings every Monday evening. The meetings were guarded. African Americans--Civil rights--History ; African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Mass Meetings Mass Meetings 759 Demonstrations &amp ; Sit-ins at Woolworth's Lunch Counter and Newberry's Did you participate in the demonstrations? Martin talks about her experience in a non-violent demonstration at Woolworth's Lunch Counter. She took part in a demonstration at a Baptist church on 26th Street in Birmingham. She also was involved in a sit-in at Newberry's Department Store. No arrests were made from these non-violent demonstrations. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Civil rights demonstrations--United States African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Civil rights demonstrations--United States 33.514897, -86.809486 17 Woolworth's Department Store Birmingham, Alabama 33.514944, -86.808395 17 Newberry's Department Store Birmingham, Alabama 912 The Mass Marches and Demonstrations in 1963 Were you ever involved in any of the mass marches during the '63 demonstrations from the church? Martin talks about her involvement in the mass marches that took place in 1963. She talks about growing up next to Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth. She describes her experience marching with a group of twenty to a segregated church and being turned away by a white spokesman. Civil rights demonstrations ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Civil rights demonstrations--United States ; Marches Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama 1061 Arrest of Family and Friends What other activities were you involved in that relates to the Movement? Martin witnessed the arrest of her father and her sister, Robbie Smith. She was at 16th Street Baptist Church the day the bombs went off but no arrests were made that day. Arrest ; Arrest--United States ; Civil rights ; Civil rights movement Arrest--United States ; Civil rights movement 33.516778, -86.814978 17 16th Street Baptist Church Birmingham, Alabama 1087 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing and March for Voting Rights But, as far as when the girls were bombed at 16th Street, Denise McNair, her parents were affiliated with the cleaners that my mother was affiliated with. Martin describes her connection to Denise McNair, one of the victims of the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing. She describes the funeral that took place at 6th Avenue Baptist church. She attended the march from Selma to Montgomery for voting rights. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; funeral ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Selma (Ala.) ; Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) ; United States. Voting Rights Act of 1965 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) ; United States. Voting Rights Act of 1965 33.516778, -86.814978 17 16th Street Baptist Church Birmingham, Alabama 32.271089, -86.728120 17 Selma to Montgomery National Historical Trail https://16thstreetbaptist.org/ The homepage of 16th Street Baptist Church 1163 Personal Impact of Experiences As you look back on those experiences, how do you think they impacted upon your life? Martin describes the difference she saw over time in racial relations and the success of the African American community coming out of Collegeville. She talks about how the movement put her in the position to oversee white and black employees in her work. Collegeville ; Experience ; Impact Civil rights movement 33.551907, -86.805106 17 Collegeville, Birmingham, Alabama 1226 Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth I was there once when Rev. Shuttlesworth, you know the school bus came down with his kids, and I went out and told him that they didn't even let the kids out in front of the house. Martin describes a school bus driver's act of prejudice toward Fred Shuttlesworth. She describes Fred Shuttlesworth as a courageous man and a good minister and preacher. She describes growing up next to the Shuttlesworth family and having a support group of people involved in the Movement. Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1420 Key People Involved in the Movement Who are some of the other people that stand out in your mind that were active during the Movement days? Martin lists key people who played a role in the Civil Rights Movement. She talks about how many people were too afraid to join in the Movement and would not let their children be a part of it. She describes how her parents were a part of the mass meetings and allowed her to take part in the Movement. Her father served as one of the guards for the mass meetings. The guards at the meetings were all unarmed. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Brooks, Dester ; Civil rights movement ; Clark, Virginia ; Eden, Minnie ; Gardner, Rev. ; Mass meetings ; Range, Julia ; Roberson, Mac ; White, Frances Foster Civil rights movement 1572 Incident with Bull Connor What would you do if you saw someone doing something? Martin describes an incident after the Bethel church bombing in which she saw Bull Connor on the railroad tracks in her neighborhood. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Connor, Bull Connor, Bull 1607 Interrogation after the 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing You had mentioned that after the bombing the police came to interrogate you. What was that about? Martin described how she was interrogated by the Birmingham Police Department as a suspect in the planting of the bomb at 16th Street Baptist church. She and her boss, Mr. Lomax, were interrogated and forced to take the lie detector test. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; police interrogation 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 33.516762, -86.814976 17 16th Street Baptist Church Birmingham, Alabama 1811 The Birmingham Police Department In many cities, there's a slogan on police cars &quot ; We're here to protect and serve.&quot ; Would you look at the Birmingham Police Department as being there for that purpose? Martin expresses her lack of trust in the Birmingham Police Department during the Movement. She describes a couple of intense experiences involving policemen targeting her and being vulgar towards her. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 1915 Shelley Stewart's Role in the Movement What role did Shelley play in the Movement? Martin describes Shelley Stewarts role in the movement as a radio figure. He played a key role in letting the community know where meetings were going to be held. Civil rights movement ; Stewart, Shelley, 1934- Stewart, Shelley, 1934- 1949 Closing Comments in the Interview Mrs. Martin, I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule. Closing comments in the interview. Oral History LaVerne Revis Martin discusses her involvement in the Movement with her family. She witnessed bombings, attended mass meetings and demonstrated alongside key figures including Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. LaVerne Revis Martin for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is July 17, 1996. Thank you, Mrs. Martin for taking time out of your schedule to sit and talk with us today about the Movement. MARTIN: Thanks for inviting me. HUNTLEY: I would like to start by asking you a couple of general questions about your background. Were your mother and father from Alabama? MARTIN: My father was from Mississippi and my mother was from Birmingham, Alabama. HUNTLEY: What part of Mississippi did he come from? MARTIN: Meridian. HUNTLEY: He moved from Meridian? MARTIN: Yes, he moved to Sumter County [Alabama] and from Sumter County to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Birmingham? MARTIN: I was born and raised in Birmingham in Collegeville. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? MARTIN: I have six sisters and one brother. HUNTLEY: Where do you fit in the family? MARTIN: I&#039 ; m the baby girl. There&#039 ; s one boy, he&#039 ; s the baby of all. HUNTLEY: So you had a lot of people who gave you orders then. MARTIN: That&#039 ; s right, everybody did. HUNTLEY: You said you were raised up in Collegeville. MARTIN: I sure was. HUNTLEY: What elementary school did you start first grade? MARTIN: I went to Hudson. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Hudson Elementary School? MARTIN: It was fun. Everybody in the neighborhood was there. There was no busing at the time so we knew everybody because we all lived in the community. It was a neighborhood school. HUNTLEY: Shelley Stewart went to Hudson. MARTIN: He did. And, he also attended Bethel Church when we were growing up. HUNTLEY: So you knew him? MARTIN: Yes, I knew him personally. HUNTLEY: So you probably remember when he first started on the air? MARTIN: Yes, I remember everything about Shelley. We&#039 ; re friends. HUNTLEY: In growing up in Collegeville, what kind of community was that? MARTIN: Well, it was a nice community. It was very nice and very quiet. It was mostly single homes. That was before the times of the projects. It was homes everywhere until they tore them down and built the projects. HUNTLEY: What kinds of occupations did people have that lived in Collegeville? MARTIN: There were mostly a lot of school teachers and nurses. HUNTLEY: What type of work did your mother do? MARTIN: My mother owned a cleaners, Social Cleaners. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your father do? MARTIN: My father worked at U. S. Pipe and Foundry. HUNTLEY: How much education did they have? MARTIN: Well, my mother finished Parker Industrial High School and my father stopped at the 4th grade. He stopped to help take care of the family. HUNTLEY: So your mother&#039 ; s business became a family business, did you work there? MARTIN: Everyday. Just no pay. And, my mother had the cleaners and my grandmother had a business, so it was always something for us to do. We grew up working with the public. HUNTLEY: What kind of business did your grandmother have? MARTIN: They had a little cafe. HUNTLEY: So you were surrounded by entrepreneurs? MARTIN: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: You left Hudson and went to Parker, is that right? MARTIN: I went to the Annex, and, then to Parker. HUNTLEY: What was the Annex? MARTIN: It was little houses where we had school. HUNTLEY: Was that because of the number of students you had at Parker? MARTIN: Right. Everybody had to go to Parker. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Parker? MARTIN: Well, I remember a lot of things. I was in the choir and also, just once I remember being the most popular queen of the high school. So, that was a highlight in my day. I took business, sewing, dress making and designing. That was something I loved to do. HUNTLEY: Did you use that in your mother&#039 ; s business after you finished or while you were going to school? MARTIN: I did a lot of sewing in the neighborhood. And, sometime I did do a little repair. HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school? MARTIN: I went to State Vocational Trade School. My daddy told me I had to go to school or get a job. So I decided to go out to State Vocational Trade School and further my education in dressmaking and designing. After that I got married. HUNTLEY: And started your family. MARTIN: Yes. I have four children. Two boys and two girls. HUNTLEY: Grandchildren? MARTIN: I have 12. HUNTLEY: In the area that you lived, where was Bethel Baptist Church? MARTIN: Right across the street on the corner. HUNTLEY: And, your father was actively involved in the Movement. How was he affiliated? MARTIN: He was on the Executive Board in the Movement. HUNTLEY: Of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights? MARTIN: Yes, that&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: So, is he one of those individuals that initiated or help to start the organization? MARTIN: He sure did. HUNTLEY: So that meant that you had no alternative but to be involved. MARTIN: No. My father was totally involved in the Movement. And, from living in Collegeville he was the President of the Park and Recreation Board, so we were all raised in the park. HUNTLEY: He was President of the Park and Recreation Board? MARTIN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Was that a board in Collegeville? MARTIN: That was the one park that we had in Collegeville. HUNTLEY: Okay. He was the director of that particular park. MARTIN: Yes, he was. HUNTLEY: So your family, it would seem, would be one that was looked up to by others in the neighborhood. MARTIN: They were well known. Everybody out there knew him. HUNTLEY: So he was known as an activist. MARTIN: He was. Even when he retired he went into the cleaners business. He helped my mother pick up clothes all over the neighborhood and everything. HUNTLEY: What other kinds of activities was he involved in with the Movement? MARTIN: Well, he was there for all the planning committees and all the programs that were set up. We went to march in Montgomery. He and I went together. HUNTLEY: This was the march from Selma to Montgomery? MARTIN: Yes. We went on the bus from Birmingham, and, then we marched after we got to Montgomery. HUNTLEY: Let&#039 ; s back up just a bit, because a lot took place before 1965. You, now living so close to the church, the church was bombed on several occasions, were you a witness to any of that activity? MARTIN: Well, the first bombing I was living in Chicago and I discovered the bomb before it went off when John L. Lewis moved the bomb. I alerted them when I was coming home from work. Allen Lomax was my boss and he brought me home. As he went to put me out I saw all this smoke up in the corner on the side of the church. Of course, I was away the first time so I was always looking for that bomb. My parents had a little room that they closed out on the front of the porch just so the guards would be able to watch. And, I alerted them and I went around to the back. HUNTLEY: So this is the second bombing, right? MARTIN: Yes. HUNTLEY: What year was that? The first one was in &#039 ; 56. MARTIN: I&#039 ; m not exactly sure. HUNTLEY: Was this at night when you came home? MARTIN: It was at night. It was like before day in the morning. Nobody was sitting on the front in that little room that my dad had built for them. They were around on the back that&#039 ; s why they missed it. So I went around there and told them it was a bomb out there. HUNTLEY: Do you remember the men that were guarding that night? MARTIN: I don&#039 ; t know exactly who was out there, but John L. Lewis, which is known as Will Hall, and Colonel Johnson came out and they went toward the bomb. I was standing on the porch and John L. Lewis lifted that bomb up and put it in the street. Colonel Johnson was right behind him, but John L. picked it up by himself and put it in the street. It went off and made a big hole in the middle of the street. HUNTLEY: Did you see it when it actually went off? MARTIN: Yes, I saw it. I was running across the back and was out on the front porch. My parents and my children were inside. HUNTLEY: Were there any injuries? MARTIN: My daughter, Kimberly was a baby at the time, and she was laying on the bed and glass was just around her. She has a cut on her forehead that resulted from that. So, when I looked around I tried to find her and I couldn&#039 ; t find her. One of the neighbors had carried her to the hospital. I went from hospital to hospital trying to find my baby. But they stitched her up and everything but she has that scar. HUNTLEY: I assume you attended mass meetings? MARTIN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you describe what a mass meeting was like? MARTIN: It was just something that you&#039 ; ll never forget. We would always sing We Shall Overcome, and a minister would be from different churches. There were times when we would go from church to church to the meetings. It was always somebody out there guarding, trying to keep us alive, but they were fun. HUNTLEY: Did you go on a regular basis? MARTIN: I went every Monday. HUNTLEY: How did you get there? MARTIN: My daddy. He was always there. HUNTLEY: Were other brothers and sisters involved, as well? MARTIN: My sister Robbie Revis Smith and my brother, James Revis. My sister, Alfreda(Inaudible). We all went to the meetings. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in the demonstrations? MARTIN: Yes, I did. HUNTLEY: What was it like participating in the demonstrations? MARTIN: Well, I went to Woolworth&#039 ; s and sat at the lunch counters. And, it just so happened I was there when there was a White gentleman that coughed and spat in the man&#039 ; s face that was next to me. I was real glad it wasn&#039 ; t me, because I knew I wasn&#039 ; t non-violent. Also, I went to a Baptist church that was over on 26th Street. HUNTLEY: Before you go to that. Tell me about the experience at the sit-in. You said a man spat in the face of Black man that was sitting there? MARTIN: Right. HUNTLEY: What happened? MARTIN: He smiled at him. He didn&#039 ; t do anything. He was non-violent. He did what we were supposed to do. HUNTLEY: Are you suggesting that you&#039 ; re glad that it was him because you don&#039 ; t know that you could have been non-violent in that case? MARTIN: I don&#039 ; t know. I would have hoped that I could have been. But, he did the right thing. HUNTLEY: How many of you were sitting in that day? MARTIN: I imagine about 10. HUNTLEY: Did they close the restaurant? MARTIN: No. HUNTLEY: Did they serve you? MARTIN: They served us. They didn&#039 ; t want to serve us, but at that time they did serve us. He just didn&#039 ; t want to be sitting beside us. HUNTLEY: So there were no arrests? MARTIN: There were no arrests made. HUNTLEY: How did you prepare for that sit-in? Was there any instructions given at the mass meeting or after the mass meeting or just prior to going? How did that all transpire? MARTIN: Well, they prepared us. We already knew that we were non-violent. So, there were different groups going different places and, it just so happened that my group went to Woolworth&#039 ; s. We were going in different directions. That was just one of my experiences. Like sitting in lunch counters, and, then on Sunday, they did a thing for churches, different churches. HUNTLEY: Did you sit at lunch counters more than that one time? MARTIN: Yes, I did. I sat-in at Newberry&#039 ; s but no incident. That was the only one that had an incident. HUNTLEY: Were you ever involved in any of the mass marches during the &#039 ; 63 demonstrations from the church? MARTIN: I was always in the marches. HUNTLEY: What was that experience like? MARTIN: It was an experience. I grew up next door to Rev. Shuttlesworth. Even with my father and Rev. Shuttlesworth, I just knew I had to do what I had to do. And, I knew what was right to do and what I believed in, and I had no problem doing that because I knew there would be a change. We had to make the difference. It was what I needed to do. HUNTLEY: Now, you mentioned another event that you were involved in where the churches were concerned, can you describe that? What was that about? MARTIN: One Sunday morning we were supposed to be going to 11:00 o&#039 ; clock service and when we got up the steps, there was a White gentleman that came to the door and he was well dressed. We were well dressed, too. So, he said that, &quot ; We segegated here.&quot ; He couldn&#039 ; t even pronounce the word and he wouldn&#039 ; t let us in. So we didn&#039 ; t do anything. We just turned around and left. That&#039 ; s the way we were instructed to do. HUNTLEY: How many of you participated in that? MARTIN: It was approximately about 20 that went to that particular church. HUNTLEY: He was the only White person that came to the door? MARTIN: He was the spokesman for the group. HUNTLEY: Do you remember how many men and how many women were with you? MARTIN: I don&#039 ; t know just to break it up, but I&#039 ; d say it was about 20 of us that went. HUNTLEY: But it was both male and female? MARTIN: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you attempt to go to other churches? MARTIN: We were just assigned to that one church for that day. HUNTLEY: Do you remember the name of the church? MARTIN: It was right next to Carraway Hospital and it was that big church on the corner. HUNTLEY: On 26th Street? MARTIN: Yes. HUNTLEY: So there was no incident? MARTIN: No. We left. We were trained to do that? HUNTLEY: What other activities were you involved in that relates to the Movement? MARTIN: Well, I was there when everybody went to jail. My father went to jail. And, my sister went, Robbie Smith. I was there at 16th Church. It just so happened that I didn&#039 ; t get arrested. Not that I wasn&#039 ; t there, in the way, but I didn&#039 ; t get arrested that particular day. But, as far as when the girls were bombed at 16th Street, Denise McNair, her parents were affiliated with the cleaners that my mother was affiliated with. They did the cleaning for her. So that was Mr. Pippens granddaughter, so I knew her personally. I attended that funeral and somehow my picture got on the front page coming down the steps. HUNTLEY: What was it like attending the funeral? MARTIN: It was hard. It was just awesome. It was something that you won&#039 ; t ever forget. HUNTLEY: Where was the funeral held? MARTIN: They had it on 6th Avenue. HUNTLEY: 6th Avenue Baptist on the south side? MARTIN: Yes. HUNTLEY: So you also attended the march from Selma to Montgomery for voting rights. MARTIN: Right. HUNTLEY: As you look back on those experiences, how do you think they impacted upon your life? MARTIN: Well, I think that those are experiences that I&#039 ; ll never forget. It makes a difference when I see someone in a great position. I felt good when I had my office and employees, both Black and White, working under me in different capacities at different times in my life. I&#039 ; ve been in management a lot. But, it made me feel good to know that had we not marched, had we not done all those things, we would never have gotten to be in the positions we were in. Out of Collegeville, there are doctors and lawyers and everything. So, it made a big impact. It also gave us the responsibility to know that we had to make it. We made a difference. I was there once when Rev. Shuttlesworth, you know the school bus came down with his kids, and I went out and told him that they didn&#039 ; t even let the kids out in front of the house. The bus just passed his house and went all around the corner. So, he got in his car, went around by Hudson School and stopped the bus. He turned him around and made him take the kids back home. That was just something to see. HUNTLEY: This was when his children were going where? MARTIN: They were coming from Parker. HUNTLEY: And they were riding the &#039 ; special&#039 ; ? MARTIN: Exactly. HUNTLEY: What did that experience mean to you? MARTIN: It meant that he was in control. It meant that he was in control and it was so wrong for them not to let them out at their house. That was just being prejudiced and that&#039 ; s what we were trying to get away from. HUNTLEY: How would you describe Fred Shuttlesworth? MARTIN: I would describe him as the bravest person I know in all walks of life. I would say that he had courage to do anything and everything. If he made up his mind that he was going to do it, he did just that. As a pastor, he was very good. He was a good minister and preacher. He went out a lot but he would think of home and be back there. I remember the experience when he and his wife was beaten up at Phillips High School. And, then that&#039 ; s the school my children attended. I worked hard at that PTA and Band Booster Club and stuff like that. HUNTLEY: In 1957 you couldn&#039 ; t go there. MARTIN: Right. You couldn&#039 ; t even go. HUNTLEY: How well did you know his children? MARTIN: They lived next door. I still know them well. We&#039 ; re still friends. HUNTLEY: Those relationships that developed during the struggle, do you ever get together with any of those people that may have left here and may return periodically? MARTIN: Yes, the Shuttlesworths were here a few weeks ago. I always hear from them and see them. There are a lot of people from the Movement, like Clio Kennedy and Gay and just all of them, we still know each other and we&#039 ; re still friends. HUNTLEY: Are there ever efforts to get everybody together to reminisce over old times? MARTIN: We haven&#039 ; t had just a plain gathering or reunion. But there are times that things come up that the Movement people are there. HUNTLEY: Who are some of the other people that stand out in your mind that were active during the Movement days? MARTIN: I used to go down to meetings, Julia Range, she worked as the secretary of the Movement and Dester Brooks always worked on the executive committee. She had a floral shop here. And, Rev. Gardner of course and the choir. Mr. Mac Roberson. A lot of people in Collegeville were faithful until they died. There were a lot of people in our neighborhood that went to jail--Frances Foster White, Virginia Clark and different ones like that. HUNTLEY: Were most people that were members of your church and the community involved in the Movement? MARTIN: There were a lot of people so scared. They were so afraid and they wouldn&#039 ; t come that way. Their parents were afraid and they didn&#039 ; t allow, even the children that wanted to they didn&#039 ; t allow them to participate. There were a lot of people even now saying they were a part of it and they were nowhere around. A lot of parents didn&#039 ; t allow their children to go. But, I was fortunate. My parents were involved, so I didn&#039 ; t have that problem. HUNTLEY: Did your mother attend the meetings, as well? MARTIN: My mother didn&#039 ; t attend the meetings. My mother was like a (Inaudible) person. She was always there with the babies and lending a helping hand with her business, but she did not attend the meetings. She was supportive of the meetings. HUNTLEY: Your father also served as one of the guards. Did he ever guard for the churches or the homes? MARTIN: Yes, he sat out there and guarded during a shift. I took turns and I guarded my shift, too. HUNTLEY: Oh, you used to guard as well? MARTIN: I used to guard. I&#039 ; d sit right out there with them, sure. HUNTLEY: Were you all armed? MARTIN: Dester Brooks used to come out there and guard, and Miss Minnie Eden, different ones like that would come out there and sit. HUNTLEY: Was anyone armed at the time? MARTIN: No. HUNTLEY: What would you do if you saw someone doing something? MARTIN: Well, we would try to alert the police department that was there. I know after that bomb that I discovered, Bull Connor was on the railroad tracks coming from the back, so he was in our neighborhood before day in the morning for some reason. But, I would think that if we called for help, that&#039 ; s basically all we could do. We were supposed to be non- violent. HUNTLEY: You had mentioned that after the bombing the police came to interrogate you. What was that about? MARTIN: After I discovered the bomb and it went off, I was just horrified. The police came and they wanted to insist that I go down and take a lie detector test because they said that I must have planted the bomb, put the bomb out there. That&#039 ; s when my daddy was very outspoken, very firm. When he spoke, you listened. He told them that I was not going down there that night. He said, &quot ; You see the shape she&#039 ; s in, she&#039 ; s upset.&quot ; He said, &quot ; We&#039 ; ll think about it and if I decide, she&#039 ; ll come down tomorrow.&quot ; I went down and took the lie detector test the next day. They put me through an ordeal. They asked me a lot of questions. But they were really trying to say that I planted the bomb and also, Mr. Lomax, they were saying that we must have put the bomb out there ourselves. It was in a five-gallon can and the bomb was down in there. But, I passed the test. HUNTLEY: What kind of questions did they ask you? MARTIN: It was all kinds of questions. They wanted to know our background. And, then they went on to ask over and over did we put the bomb out there and what did we do afterwards. Just exactly, word for word. But, I told them for sure I didn&#039 ; t put the bomb out there. HUNTLEY: Were you the only one that took the lie detector test? MARTIN: Mr. Lomax, my boss. He brought me home so he had to take it, too. HUNTLEY: Where were you working at the time? MARTIN: I was working for a little restaurant. I was the manager. He had to bring me home. They had the little small cafes then. That&#039 ; s what it was. HUNTLEY: Where was that located? MARTIN: It was in Collegeville. It was near where Carver High School is now. But, it wasn&#039 ; t there then. HUNTLEY: We&#039 ; ve covered a lot of territory. Is there anything else that you would like to share with us that relate to the Movement or to you personally? MARTIN: I would like to say that after one of the bombings, not that one in particular, my sister, Alfreda, she was trying to come to the house to see if my parents were hurt, to see how they were doing and they had almost put us in jail trying to get up to the house. She and her husband tried to get up to the house and they almost went to jail for trying to get up there to see what was going on. HUNTLEY: The police would not allow it? MARTIN: They would not allow us to go that way even though the family was still up there at the house. So Alfreda and Johnny almost went to jail for that. HUNTLEY: Were you at the house? MARTIN: Yes, I was at the house. HUNTLEY: But they were not allowed to get there? MARTIN: Right. They almost went to jail out there. They were very rude out there, acting like we were the enemy. HUNTLEY: In many cities, there&#039 ; s a slogan on police cars &quot ; We&#039 ; re here to protect and serve.&quot ; Would you look at the Birmingham Police Department as being there for that purpose? MARTIN: No. They were not there to protect and serve. Actually, if you saw a police at that particular time and you could out run them, your best bet was to do that because they were actually putting your hands on top of the cars and doing all sorts of things to people at the time. So, they weren&#039 ; t there for that reason. HUNTLEY: Did you ever witness any of the incidents with the police or did anyone ever tell you about something that happened to them personally? MARTIN: Well, the only thing I can say I was stopped once and they had me put my hands over the car. I never drank anything so they couldn&#039 ; t get me with alcohol or anything like that, but they searched me right out there in the street. I didn&#039 ; t have any weapons on me or anything. They talked nasty to me, saying some vulgar things to me, but they did turn me loose. HUNTLEY: Were you alone? MARTIN: Yes. And, once again I was coming down by A. G. Gaston, by the college and one of them got behind me, so I just put my foot on the gas and I ran and circled some little corners that I knew he wouldn&#039 ; t be familiar with and lost him, because I would never get caught out in that predicament again. HUNTLEY: That was at night? MARTIN: That was at night. HUNTLEY: What role did Shelley play in the Movement? MARTIN: He did everything on that radio. He kept everything going. He did a lot of commercials. He told all about where the meetings were going to be for people to get involved. I remember he was always around, even when they named the street after Rev. Shuttlesworth, he was right there in the middle of that, because I was there, too. He&#039 ; s always been around. HUNTLEY: Mrs. Martin, I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule. I know you need to get back to work, so maybe at some later date, we&#039 ; ll be able to do this again. You&#039 ; ve been very helpful. MARTIN: It&#039 ; s been a nice thing to just meet you and to be here. It was such a pleasure. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=LMMartin1996.xml LMMartin1996.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource LaVerne Revis Martin Description An account of the resource LaVerne Revis Martin discusses her involvement in the Movement with her family. She witnessed bombings, attended mass meetings and demonstrated alongside key figures including Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 1960717M Subject The topic of the resource African Americans--Civil rights Mass Meetings Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996-07-17 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/c15bfa2dc0cdbad5e9a53e211f16669e.jpg aa795b0800ed09a846dce11ab1459cd0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lola Hendricks OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=LHendricks1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.3 January 19, 1995 Lola Hendricks Interviewed on January 19, 1995 19950119H 0:37:47 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Laura Benton Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Lola Hendricks Horace Huntley Video 1:|12(6)|44(3)|75(3)|95(9)|111(14)|133(14)|158(5)|173(4)|194(3)|213(7)|231(4)|247(8)|262(5)|277(2)|296(10)|308(13)|325(8)|344(11)|362(3)|378(5)|400(1)|420(10)|433(6)|445(4)|457(10)|479(13)|500(4)|520(2)|543(10)|569(5)|584(10)|604(15)|616(3)|632(15)|645(11)|661(5) 0 https://youtu.be/NDAYfJ1A9IY YouTube video English 95 Introduction to the Interview As you well know, what we're attempting to do is to develop, really, a history of Birmingham through the struggle with individuals like yourself who were participants of the Movement. Birmingham (Ala.) Civil rights movement 33.516405, -86.814532 18 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 113 Family Origins and Background Let me first get a little background. Hendricks grew up in Birmingham, Alabama with one other sibling, a sister. Her parents never finished school. Her mother was a cook and her father was a truck driver. Birmingham (Ala.) Personal narratives 187 Educational Background What about your education? How much education do you have? Hendricks graduated from Parker High School then attended Booker T. Washington Business College for two years where she studied Business Administration and short-hand typing. Booker T. Washington Business College ; Parker High School Education, Higher--United States 217 Work History Then you were clerical. Hendricks started out her work career as a secretary and insurance clerk with Alexander &amp ; Company. She went on to work for the Social Security Administration and stayed there until 1967 when she went to work with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission until 1983. She eventually returned to the Social Security Administration in 1988 and worked until retirement. Alexander &amp ; Company ; Clerical work ; Social security--United States ; United States. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission Federal government--United States ; Job 321 One of the First African Americans to Work for the Federal Government Well you started working at Social Security in the mid [19]60's. That meant that you were probably one of the first. Wright describes first being hired to work for the federal government and the warnings given to white workers about being fired if they opposed the integration. Work Force Integration Federal government- United States 407 Blacks Forced to Take Tests for Jobs or the Right to Vote Did you have to take a test? Hendricks had to pass a test in order to put on the register and later selected to work for the federal government. She describes how black people were subjected to test-taking for jobs and the right to vote. Many black people who passed the tests were put on the personnel registers but never selected for work. Johnson, George ; McPherson, Jonathan ; Miles College Ability testing 480 The Communities of Southside and Norwood &amp ; Titusville What community did you live in during the time that you were growing up? Hendricks describes growing up in the low-income Southside and Norwood communities which were all black. After she got married, she moved to Titusville which was a higher income community with a black park. She describes the occupations that the community members held. Norwood (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Southside (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Titusville (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) 646 The Birmingham Police Department What was your community’s relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? Hendricks describes the Birmingham Police Department as aloof and never around in the early years of the Movement. She states that she never saw policemen in the neighborhoods she lived in. She states that police-community relations have improved since the Civil Rights Movement. Civil rights movement ; Police-community relations Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 691 Involvement in Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights &amp ; Mass Meetings Were you a member of any community organizations after you grew up, particularly in the Titusville area? Hendricks describes her involvement in organizations such as the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights, Southern Conference Educational Fund, the NAACP. She had the role as a Correspondence Secretary for the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. She describes mass meetings at Sardis and New Pilgrim Baptist churches. She says she was never fearful to be part of the meetings. NAACP ; New Pilgrim Baptist Church ; Sardis Baptist Church ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference ; Southern Conference Educational Fund Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights 839 Reason for Joining the Movement How and why did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement? Hendricks describes a brutal story of a black man who was castrated at the hands of white men in Tarrant City. This story upset her and made her want to get involved in the Movement. Tarrant City (Ala.) Civil rights movement 889 The Treatment of Black People on Buses Hendricks describes how black people were forced to sit behind the 'Colored' board on buses in Birmingham, Alabama. Bus segregation bothered her. She wanted to be like Rosa Parks. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Parks, Rosa, 1913-2005 Blacks--Segregation 942 Role as Corresponding Secretary in the Movement &amp ; Assistant to Dr. King's Staff in 1963 So when you got involved in the Movement, what role did you play? Hendricks describes her active role as corresponding secretary for the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights, and how she was able to assist Dr. King when he visited Birmingham in 1963. Among the things she did as part of the Movement, she and her husband also filed a lawsuit to integrate parks in Birmingham in the 1950's. Her role as corresponding secretary led her to work closely with Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth answering mail and gathering funds for speaking engagements he would be involved in. She filled this role from 1956 to 1963. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Corresponding secretary ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference ; Southern Conference Educational Fund ; Walker, Wyatt Tee Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights 1101 Mass Meetings, Key Speakers, &amp ; The Birmingham Police Department's Presence So, obviously, you attended the Mass meetings on a regular basis? Hendricks discusses the mass meetings that occurred on Monday evenings. The meetings were often lead by local Birmingham ministers such as Fred Shuttlesworth and Abraham Woods. She describes how the meetings differed from the ones held by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. in 1963. She describes how Birmingham police officers attended the mass meetings for note-taking and intimidation purposes. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Connor, Bull ; Gardner, Edward ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Lane, T. L. ; Parnell (Rev.) ; Phiffer, J.S. ; Reese, Carlton ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Smith, N.H. ; Thomas (Rev.) ; Woods, Abraham Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Civil rights movement 1330 Reverend Wyatt T. Walker &amp ; Project C Reverend Wyatt T. Walker told me that I knew the people locally and that he wanted me out. He didn'twant me in jail, so I had to work with him directly. Hendricks worked closely with Wyatt T. Walker on Project C. She put him in touch with ministers and business people and showed him the various locations intended for demonstrations within the city of Birmingham. A.G. Gaston Motel ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Project C ; Young, Andy Walker, Wyatt Tee 1458 Tour of the Northeast with the Southern Conference Educational Fund (SCLC) During 1962, during the selective buying campaign, you did some traveling. Can you tell me about that? Hendricks toured the Northeast in 1962 gathering support and funds from interested followers of the Movement who wanted to give back to the cause. She toured New York, Boston, Philadelphia, and Brandais University. Boston (Mass.) ; Braden, Carl, 1914-1975 ; Brandais University ; Davis, Angela Y. (Angela Yvonne), 1944- ; Melish, William Howard, 1910- ; New York (N.Y.) ; Philadelphia (Pa.) Southern Conference Educational Fund 1597 Family Involvement in the Movement &amp ; Daughter's Time in Jail Did others in your family participate in the Movement? Hendricks discusses her family's active participance in the Civil Rights Movement. At one point, her nine year old daughter was taken to jail. She describes how masses of children were kept in Juvenile during that time. Arrest ; Civil rights demonstrations Civil rights movement 1762 Church Involvement in the Movement What church were you a member of? Hendricks was a member of New Pilgrim Baptist Church. The congregation was very active during the Movement. The pastor was a secretary for the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights and went to jail on two occasions. Mass meetings were held at the church building. Church meetings ; New Pilgrim Baptist Church Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights 1814 Benefits and Assessment of the Movement What benefits did you, your family, and community realize as a result of the Movement? Hendricks states that the Movement opened many doors that were not open to black people before in Birmingham, and it created unity among the Blacks. She would not change anything about the Movement if she could. It broke down barriers of segregation and created job opportunities for black people. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Civil rights movement 1944 White Involvement in the Movement You mentioned that there were Whites that were involved in the Movement? Hendricks talks about the White people who donated to and demonstrated with the Blacks in Birmingham. One white attorney, Charles Morgan was active in the movement as well as a minister, Reverend Lamar Weaver who sat with Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth and his wife at the terminal station. Many white supporters were afraid to be too visible for fear of their lives during the Movement. Morgan, Charles ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Weaver, Lamar Civil rights movement 2038 Relationship to Angela Davis You mentioned that in 1962 you went to Brandais and you saw Angela Davis. How did you know Angela Davis? Hendricks met Angela Davis after the meeting at Brandais University in 1962. They discussed the horrible events occurring in Birmingham, Alabama, Angela Davis' hometown. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Brandais University Davis, Angela Y. (Angela Yvonne), 1944- 2085 The Betterment of Birmingham &amp ; Non-involvement in the Bus Rides of 1956-1958 Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with that relates to the Movement and how it actually evolved at the time? Hendricks states that she is proud to have been part of the Movement and she believes Birmingham is a much better city to live in post-Movement. She states that she was never involved any of the bus demonstrations that took place during 1956-1958 with Reverend Shuttlesworth. Civil rights demonstrations ; Civil rights movement ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 2165 Lawsuit to Desegregate Parks in Birmingham Can you tell me just a little in conclusion about the suit that you and your husband hadagainst the Park Board? Hendricks and her husband filed a lawsuit against the Park Board in Birmingham, Alabama. Eventually laws changed and the parks were desegregated. Desegregation ; Lawsuit ; Park Board ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 2211 Conclusion to the Interview I certainly do thank you for coming out today and sitting with me. Birmingham (Ala.) Oral History Lola Hendricks discusses her time serving as the Corresponding Secretary for the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights in Birmingham. She organized communication, meetings and funds. She demonstrated and worked closely with Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth. HUNTLEY: As you well know, what we&#039 ; re attempting to do is to develop, really, a history of Birmingham through the struggle with individuals like yourself who were participants of the Movement. And we&#039 ; ll start with a number of questions, and then we&#039 ; ll get into questions about the Movement itself. HENDRICKS: Okay. HUNTLEY: Let me first get a little background. HENDRICKS: Okay. HUNTLEY: Where were your parents from? Were both from Birmingham? HENDRICKS: No, neither were from Birmingham. My mother was born in Standing Rock, Alabama, and my father was born in La Grange, Georgia. HUNTLEY: And you were born in Birmingham? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? HENDRICKS: I have only one sister. HUNTLEY: One sister. Were you the older? HENDRICKS: I&#039 ; m the oldest. HUNTLEY: You&#039 ; re the oldest. What about education--your parents&#039 ; education? HENDRICKS: I don&#039 ; t think either one of them finished high school. Went to elementary, that&#039 ; s all. HUNTLEY: Okay. What were their occupations? HENDRICKS: My mother was a cook, and my father worked for a coal company as a truck driver. HUNTLEY: Did she work outside of the home for other people? HENDRICKS: Yes she did. HUNTLEY: Did she live in the home for the people that she worked for? Or did she live at home? HENDRICKS: No, she lived at home with the family. HUNTLEY: Okay. HENDRICKS: She would leave us and go to work every day. HUNTLEY: What about your education? How much education do you have? HENDRICKS: I finished Parker High School, and I have two years of Booker T. Washington Business College. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about Booker T. Washington Business College. What did you do there? HENDRICKS: At Booker T. Washington Business College, I took Business Administration. We had Business Law, Shorthand, Typing, English. HUNTLEY: Then you were clerical. HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Then I assume that your occupation was in that area? HENDRICKS: Yes, it was. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about what you did, and who did you work for? HENDRICKS: Okay. After finishing Booker T. Washington Business College, I started working for Alexander &amp ; Company, and I worked for them until 1963, when I went into the Federal Government, and Social Security Administration. HUNTLEY: Alexander &amp ; Company was an insurance company. HENDRICKS: Right. HUNTLEY: And you worked there as a... HENDRICKS: As a clerk-typist and insurance writer. HUNTLEY: And then you went to work for the government. What did you do for the government? HENDRICKS: I started working in files. That was the beginning of the integration. And they were bringing us in at those very low grades. I started in files, and I worked in files for about two years. And then I was promoted to Clerk Typing and Award Typing. And after that, I worked for Quality Appraisal as a Secretary and Unit Clerk. I stayed with Social Security until 1967. I left in 1967 and went to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and worked for them as a secretary and then a Supervisor of Control and Equal Employment Technician and, eventually, Equal Employment Opportunity Specialist. So I stayed with them from 1967 to 1983. And in &#039 ; 83 I took a break in service because my mother got ill and I took care of her. I went back to Social Security in 1988 and I worked until I retired. HUNTLEY: Well you started working at Social Security in the mid [19]60&#039 ; s. That meant that you were probably one of the first [African American administrative employees]. HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me about that? How did you get hired? HENDRICKS: Okay. Yes, I was among the first to come into the Federal Government. And the reason I know that is when I started working and was promoted upstairs to Award typing, I sat in front of a White female who was very nice and she shared with me the things that they were told when they were getting ready to bring us into the Building. She said, &#039 ; Lola, I have no problem with people who are a different color, but some of these people here are very prejudiced.&#039 ; And she went on to name the different people in the office to watch out for. She said, &#039 ; They called us together at a meeting after they started bringing Blacks in, and told us that the Federal Government was now beginning to bring Blacks on here in the city of Birmingham to work, and if we started any disruption or caused any racial encounters here, that they were going to fire us.&#039 ; And she said, of course, that wasn&#039 ; t received too well by many people. And, so, she told me the things I needed to watch out for and the people to be careful about. HUNTLEY: And they actually warned White people that were there if they participated in any way [in opposing integration of the work force], they would be fired. HENDRICKS: Yes, they did. They warned them. HUNTLEY: Did you have to take a test? HENDRICKS: Yes, I took a test for the federal service and passed it and was selected off the register. HUNTLEY: Were there any efforts prior to your being hired to take tests for either jobs or for getting the right to vote? Did you take any test prior to that? HENDRICKS: No. HUNTLEY: Did you know other people that were taking tests at the same time? HENDRICKS: Yes, yes. There were others who took tests at the same time particularly in the County Personnel Board. Dr. Jonathan McPherson, who is pastor at St. John in Hueytown, he passed. He was on the staff at Miles College at the time and he passed all of those tests, and he was never hired. And also Reverend George Johnson took tests to be a policeman, and he was never hired. Any number of Blacks-- HUNTLEY: They actually passed the test. HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: How did they know they passed the test? HENDRICKS: Well they got letters saying they were on the register. They were given their scores and they were on the Personnel Register. HUNTLEY: So their names simply remained on the list, but they were never called. HENDRICKS: Yes, but never selected. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in during the time that you were growing up? HENDRICKS: During the time that I was growing up, we lived on the Southside, primarily over in the area of Fourth Avenue and about Fifteenth Street South. And when I finished Parker High School we were living in the Norwood section. And, then, after I got married, during the Movement time, we lived at 842 Centerway Southwest in the Titusville area. HUNTLEY: How would you describe the different communities that you lived in--racial make-up, occupation of people there, recreation, different organizations that may have been available? HENDRICKS: Both neighborhoods were all Black. No Whites in the neighborhood. I guess you would say in the Titusville area the income level was a lot higher that it was when I lived on the Southside and in Norwood. It was very low-income people there. HUNTLEY: Southside had the low income? HENDRICKS: Right, right. In Titusville the income level from their community was a lot higher. And as far as recreations.... In the two, Norwood and Southside, there was nothing that I was made aware of as a child that was available to us in that community, but over in the Titusville area, when we moved over there, Memorial Park was available, which was at that time a Black park. HUNTLEY: Which Park was that? HENDRICKS: Memorial Park. HUNTLEY: What kind of activities did they have at Memorial Park? HENDRICKS: I&#039 ; m not sure if they had the swimming pool at that time, but I know they had the park where you played ball, picnics and games out there on the field. HUNTLEY: And the swimming pool came later? HENDRICKS: The swimming pool I think came later...right. HUNTLEY: What about occupations in the various communities? HENDRICKS: In the Southside and the Norwood communities, most people were either maids or janitors--the low paying jobs. In the Titusville area, we had a mixture of teachers, doctors, lawyers, a lot better. HUNTLEY: Were there any steel workers in either community? HENDRICKS: I&#039 ; m sure there were some steel workers in the Titusville area, but on the North side and South side of town, where I lived there on Fourth Avenue, there were none. HUNTLEY: What was your community&#039 ; s relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? HENDRICKS: It was nothing during the early years. Things have improved since the Civil Rights Movement for the police department. Our relationship with the police department has improved. HUNTLEY: Some suggest that the police department was there to protect and serve. Is this the impression that you had of the police department? HENDRICKS: No, I did not have that impression, no. Because I didn&#039 ; t ever remember seeing policemen in the neighborhood where I lived in Norwood or on the Southside. They weren&#039 ; t around there. I guess it was a neighborhood where nothing happened where they had to call the Police or anything, but I just don&#039 ; t ever remember seeing policemen when I was younger. HUNTLEY: Were you a member of any community organizations after you grew up, particularly in the Titusville area? If so, what kind of organizations were you involved in? HENDRICKS: Okay. I was a member of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights and I also was a member of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, a member of NAACP, and the Southern Conference Educational Fund. I became a member of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights after they were organized, after the NAACP was outlawed. HUNTLEY: Were you all founding members of the Alabama Christian Movement? HENDRICKS: Well, I don&#039 ; t think I was a founding member, but I started the second meeting. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. What was the second meeting like? HENDRICKS: The second meeting was very impressive, because it was at a time when I think that all of us who attended that mass meetings were aware that things were bad in Birmingham and it was not getting any better and that it was time for us to do something about trying to make things better for Blacks in Birmingham. The first meeting was at Sardis [Baptist Church] and this one was at New Pilgrim [Baptist Church], and we had a lot of ministers and people who were motivational speakers to motivate you to see where all the wrongs were and how we were being mistreated and we couldn&#039 ; t get jobs and we could not go to parks and do a lot of things in Birmingham that Whites were allowed to do. So, this was quite impressive to those of us that attended. HUNTLEY: Were you afraid at all to attend the Movement meetings? HENDRICKS: Never. I never had any fear. I felt that if the bombings or shootings or whatever was going to happen, it just happened, because we were treated like we were second-class citizens. HUNTLEY: Did you hold any office in either of the organizations? HENDRICKS: Yes. In the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights, I served as Correspondence Secretary for that organization. HUNTLEY: How and why did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement? HENDRICKS: The reason why I became involved in the organization was the one thing that had bothered me since I heard about or read about in the paper--a gentleman by the name of Judge Aaron, who was attacked by some White men in Tarrant City. I was very upset about that because they didn&#039 ; t know nothing about the man. They just picked him out and castrated him, and it just really upset me. And then when I heard about the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights, it brought back that memory to me, and the fact that growing up in Birmingham, Alabama, I had been a person who would ride the bus downtown and sit behind this &#039 ; Colored&#039 ; board, and I always had a problem with it, and my mother never would let me do what I wanted to do. HUNTLEY: What did you want to do? HENDRICKS: I wanted to do what Rosa Parks did--not get up when they came to move the board. And we would ride that bus and they would move that board, and we would have to get up and stand up most times. So I really thought about all those kinds of things and how we had been treated, and now was the time, I thought. No better time than now to do something about it. HUNTLEY: Was there ever a time on the bus when you were asked to move, or others were asked to move, and you refused? HENDRICKS: No, never. People always were submissive then. I asked my mother and father why were they submissive and their answer to me was, &#039 ; Well, we just have to stay in our place.&#039 ; And I couldn&#039 ; t accept that. HUNTLEY: So when you got involved in the Movement, what role did you play? HENDRICKS: During the Movement days, after I became Corresponding Secretary, I became very active and stayed very busy dealing with the correspondence for the organization. I also had an opportunity to help with setting up the conference for the Southern Christian Leadership Conference when they came to Birmingham. I had an opportunity to set up the conference for the Southern Conference Educational Fund when they met here in Birmingham. I was also instrumental in assisting Dr. King&#039 ; s staff working with Dr. Wyatt T. Walker when we invited them to come to Birmingham in [19]63. I went to Dr. Gaston to secure an office space for them, because before they came we did not have an office space. I was instrumental in getting that set up for him and putting him in contact with the people that he needed to contact in Birmingham that would help us get the direct action campaign taken care of. Then, the other things that I did-- My family and I were very active. My ex-husband and I filed a lawsuit during the fifties, which was to integrate the parks here in Birmingham, Alabama. HUNTLEY: So you were really on the front lines? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: As Corresponding Secretary, what did you actually do? HENDRICKS: Okay. All mail coming into the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights at that time-- Like I said, we did not have an office. We were operating out of Reverend Shuttlesworth&#039 ; s church, so all the mail that came for the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was directed to his church and I would have to answer the mail involving Reverend Shuttlesworth&#039 ; s speaking engagements or funds coming in from different organizations about supporting us or people who wanted to come to Birmingham to speak or wanting him to come to other places across the country to speak. I had to correspond and take care of that mail for him. HUNTLEY: How long did you handle that operation? HENDRICKS: I worked as Corresponding Secretary from 1956 to 1963, when I went to the Federal Government. HUNTLEY: So, obviously, you attended the Mass meetings on a regular basis? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what the Mass meetings were like in the early days and, then, whether they were similar or different during the time that Martin Luther King was in town? HENDRICKS: Okay. The Mass meetings from [19]56 to &#039 ; 63, before Dr. King came, were meetings where we met and dealt with the local problems, the filing of lawsuits, singing and praying, and we had a motivational speaker every Monday night. HUNTLEY: Who were some of those speakers? HENDRICKS: We had speakers like Reverend Edward Gardner, Reverend J. S. Phiffer, Reverend T. L. Lane, Reverend Shuttlesworth, Reverend N. H. Smith, Reverend Parnell, out of Irondale, Reverend Thomas of Ensley, Reverend Woods, the Woods-- HUNTLEY: All of these were local Ministers? HENDRICKS: All of these were local ministers, yes. We did not have an awful lot of out-of-town ministers during the early days, because it was really the Birmingham Movement and we were just doing things here in Birmingham without the outside help. So, occasionally, we may have a visiting minister come, but for the most part we did not solicit any visitors like that. These were local ministers who would speak to us to keep us motivated on keeping the dream that we had alive at that time. HUNTLEY: How did the meetings differ in the early days versus after Dr. King came? HENDRICKS: After Dr. King came to town the meetings were very different. The meetings were on a high hyped-up session, I would say, because Carlton Reese was involved more and you had a lot more speakers at those affairs. We had so many people coming in to Birmingham to assist and they were really dynamic speakers, and they kept us in a situation where we were all excited and so caught up with the moment until we were all on a high. HUNTLEY: Were Birmingham policemen present at the meetings? HENDRICKS: Yes, they were. Detectives. Note-taking detectives. They were sitting in the back of the church taking notes. HUNTLEY: They were present at every meeting? HENDRICKS: Yes, at every meeting. HUNTLEY: What was their demeanor? Did they just come in and sit down? Did they say anything to anyone? HENDRICKS: No, they just came in and sat down, never said anything to anyone. HUNTLEY: How did those that attended the meetings react to the police being there, and how did the leaders react? HENDRICKS: Well, Reverend Shuttlesworth and some of the others like Reverend Woods-- Reverend Shuttlesworth would throw out little hints at them like they knew what their purpose was and, &#039 ; You all [detectives] take this down real good so Bull Connor will know what our plans are tomorrow because we know that&#039 ; s what you&#039 ; re here for.&#039 ; And those of us in the audience just ignored them and acted like they were not there. We really did not care. We were not afraid. HUNTLEY: Do you think they were there partly for intimidation purposes? HENDRICKS: I think so. I think they were there so a lot of people would be afraid. It would turn some people around, I&#039 ; m sure, but, for the most part, for the mass of people, it didn&#039 ; t effect us at all. HUNTLEY: Did you go to jail? HENDRICKS: No, I was not able to go to jail. I wanted to go, but I did not get to go. Reverend Wyatt T. Walker told me that I knew the people locally and that he wanted me out. He didn&#039 ; t want me in jail, so I had to work with him directly. HUNTLEY: So you worked very closely with Wyatt. What did you do for him? HENDRICKS: When he came to town, I had to put him in touch with the ministers here, the churches here, the business people here, and when he got ready to go to certain department stores and set up the ground rules for the boycotting and demonstrations, I had to take him to the various areas in the city of Birmingham to show him which stores were targeted and the libraries and things like that. HUNTLEY: So you were, more or less, his right-hand person in developing Project C? HENDRICKS: Yes, right. Project C. HUNTLEY: Are there any incidents that may have taken place as you and Wyatt rode around the city in relationship to what was happening in the group at the time? Anything that may come to mind? HENDRICKS: For when we were getting prepared to do this? HUNTLEY: Yes. Wyatt talked about making the walk from the headquarters, A. G. Gaston Motel, to various places downtown. Did you ever accompany him on those? Were there any other things that may have taken place that you would remember? What is the most vivid thing that you remember about your relationship with Wyatt? HENDRICKS: I can&#039 ; t think of anything out of the ordinary when we were doing things because most of my work was contained there at the office giving him directives and locations where to go. So he, Bevel, and Andy Young--that group of men--went out and did the actual leg work out in the streets. I just gave them the directions for who to see, who to contact. So I really didn&#039 ; t have any contact with him going out in the field to do that. They did that. HUNTLEY: During 1962, during the selective buying campaign, you did some traveling. Can you tell me about that? HENDRICKS: Yes. On December 1, 1962, I went to New York, Boston, and Brandais University. That&#039 ; s where I saw Angela Davis. I went there on a tour with Reverend William Howard Melish of Brooklyn, New York, who was one of the field directors for the Southern Conference Education Fund. I was in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania with Carl Braden, who was a staff member also. We went into the homes of people they had set up for us and talked to them about what was happening in the South and the struggles that we had going in our attempt to start this selective buying campaign because we felt that this was the only way to get jobs and the White merchants to start hiring Blacks. They were very gracious to us. Not only did we meet in their homes, but in most instances we spent the night there. They put us up in their homes and they sent a lot of money back to our organization after that tour. At Christmas time, they sent boxes and boxes of toys and clothes for our children for Christmas, and what I did was, after they came-- Not only did they send toys, they sent wrapping paper. Then I got a group of people together. We wrapped the gifts and toys and carried them to the Movement and they were distributed to people within the Movement who needed them for their children for Christmas. HUNTLEY: That way people did not have to go downtown to shop. HENDRICKS: Right. Exactly. HUNTLEY: Were there other tours, or was it just this one tour where you went up East? HENDRICKS: That was the only tour that I went up East. The other ones were done by the ministers when they&#039 ; d go off and speak and preach. That was the only one that I did. HUNTLEY: Was this under auspices of SCLC, or the Alabama Christian Movement? HENDRICKS: The Southern Conference Educational Fund. I was working with them. HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate in the Movement? HENDRICKS: Yes, they did. My daughter, at the time of the Movement, was nine years of age, and she was arrested and stayed in jail for five days. My ex-husband was arrested for riding the bus and he was in jail for about one week, I believe it was. And he also was a security guard for Reverend Shuttlesworth out at the church. He was also among the men who went to Anniston to bring the Whites and Blacks that were on the bus that was burned in Anniston back to Birmingham, and we kept two of them in our home. HUNTLEY: How did you feel about your nine year old daughter spending time in jail? HENDRICKS: Well, it didn&#039 ; t bother me at all. We had a communication line with the person at the Juvenile, and we would call once a day to check and see if anybody was sick and how the kids was getting along. This person would give us information about her and we didn&#039 ; t have any problem at all. HUNTLEY: Where was she housed? HENDRICKS: She was housed at Juvenile. HUNTLEY: Was there a mass of children there? HENDRICKS: Yes, there was a mass of children there. HUNTLEY: I talked with another individual and they talked about something called &#039 ; kites.&#039 ; People that go to jail, they would send them a kite out--in other words, a message written on any kind of paper. Are you familiar at all with that terminology? HENDRICKS: No. HUNTLEY: When your child went to jail was she one of those who came out of school? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me anything about that? HENDRICKS: Since our involvement was so intense, our whole family was involved. She told me because I was surprised that she went. And when I got the call that she was in jail, and after she came out, I said, &#039 ; What made you decide?&#039 ; She said, &#039 ; Well, you all were involved and I thought if it was right for you all to be fighting for our rights, we should help, too.&#039 ; HUNTLEY: So this was not something that you sat down and planned that she was going to actively be involved in? HENDRICKS: No, I did not ask her to do it. HUNTLEY: How did other members of your family react to your participation? HENDRICKS: They were very supportive. All of our family members were very supportive. My mother and father were very frightened about it, but they said they knew it was the right thing to do. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of? HENDRICKS: New Pilgrim Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: What was the level of involvement of your church and your pastor? HENDRICKS: New Pilgrim Baptist Church was very involved and our pastor was Secretary of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. He, too, went to jail on two occasions, so our church is very rich with civil rights history. HUNTLEY: So, because your pastor was involved, did that create any difficulty for him with others in the congregation? HENDRICKS: Not at all. They were very supportive. HUNTLEY: So then your church itself was very actively involved? HENDRICKS: Yes, yes. HUNTLEY: Were there meetings held at your church? HENDRICKS: Yes, indeed. All the time. And the second meeting, after the first meeting at Sardis, was at New Pilgrim. HUNTLEY: And that&#039 ; s when you got involved? HENDRICKS: Yes, at New Pilgrim. HUNTLEY: What benefits did you, your family, and community realize as a result of the Movement? HENDRICKS: Well, I think as a result of the Movement, as far as my family is concerned, it made us better individuals as it relates to knowing what we were entitled to be and what we had been deprived of. We had been denied a lot of opportunities and after the Movement started and doors started opening up for us, we were able to walk into doors that we never would have done if we had not started this. HUNTLEY: If you were in control of the Movement and could go back and change some things, what would you change? HENDRICKS: I wouldn&#039 ; t change anything. Not anything. I wouldn&#039 ; t change anything. HUNTLEY: Reverend Shuttlesworth says the same thing. He would not change anything. And I ask him would he change the beating that he received at Phillips High School. He said, &#039 ; No.&#039 ; What is your assessment of the Birmingham Movement. How successful was it? What did it accomplish? HENDRICKS: The one thing that I was very proud of [was] it showed unity. It brought us together as a Black race, and some Whites. It wasn&#039 ; t just all Blacks. It was some Whites. It brought us together as a community working together to break down the barriers of segregation and discrimination. Jobs for the citizens of Birmingham, the opportunity to go into the stores and shop as well as have clerks and employees hired in these stores, and the opportunity to go into schools. There were some stores at that time where you could go and buy a dress, but you couldn&#039 ; t even try it on in those stores. So, that, along with the fact that we have policemen that we see and we&#039 ; re very proud that they are Black, and our chief of police and our mayor is Black. I&#039 ; m very proud of the successes of Birmingham. HUNTLEY: You mentioned that there were Whites that were involved in the Movement? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: There were local Whites? HENDRICKS: Yes. HUNTLEY: What were their roles? HENDRICKS: Well, we had some Whites who would give money, but, for fear of their life and their own jobs, they were afraid to be visible. But there were some Whites who did give money and then there were Whites who would be supportive in ways that they could, without it being known to others. We had an attorney named Morgan, Charles Morgan, who was active and was helpful to us. Of course, he had to leave the city, but he was active. And then there was a man by the name of Reverend Lamar Weaver who was active and sat at the bus station with Reverend Shuttlesworth and his wife when they sat at the Birmingham Terminal Station in the White Section. Of course, he had to leave. But there were Whites that did. HUNTLEY: Were there any Whites that demonstrated in the Birmingham Movement during April and May of 1963? HENDRICKS: Not to my knowledge. The Whites that I knew were there were from out-of-town. HUNTLEY: You mentioned that in 1962 you went to Brandais and you saw Angela Davis. How did you know Angela Davis? HENDRICKS: She came up to me after the meeting was over, and told me who she was and where she lived. And she said, &#039 ; I&#039 ; m just shocked to hear all of this. That&#039 ; s my home. I have been sheltered.&#039 ; She said, &#039 ; I heard the bombs, but I had no idea what was causing that bombing.&#039 ; And I said, &#039 ; Well, Angela, I hate you were sheltered, but that is Birmingham.&#039 ; And she was really shocked to know that all these things had gone on in Birmingham. She said her mother and father kept her sheltered from that. HUNTLEY: Have you seen her since then? HENDRICKS: No, only on television and in the magazines. HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with that relates to the Movement and how it actually evolved at the time? HENDRICKS: I am very proud that I had the opportunity to be a part of this Movement. I don&#039 ; t regret anything that I contributed to the Movement, and I think that Birmingham-- In fact, I know Birmingham is a much better city to live in than prior to the Movement. HUNTLEY: Were you ever one of those that rode the bus with Reverend Shuttlesworth during the early stages--[19]56, &#039 ; 57, &#039 ; 58? Many people were riding the bus and riding in front of the board. Did you participate in that? HENDRICKS: No. I never did. HUNTLEY: As you said, you needed to stay where you were because of your position. HENDRICKS: Right. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me just a little inclusion about the suit that you and your husband had against the Park Board? HENDRICKS: Okay. The lawsuit was filed back in the fifties when we were filing for desegregation of buses. We were not allowed to go into the parks and let our children play like other children in the City of Birmingham. We could not go to the one on Third Avenue West, the fair grounds. Those were places that we could not enter, so Reverend Shuttlesworth brought it up in one of our meetings and I told him we would sign for that law suit and be the party for it, and that&#039 ; s what we did. And the laws would later change and it was desegregated. HUNTLEY: I certainly do thank you for coming out today and sitting with me. This, obviously, will add quite a bit to the story of Birmingham and I hope to do this with you again, because I know you have much, much more. Thank you very much. HENDRICKS: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=LHendricks1995.xml LHendricks1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lola Hendricks Description An account of the resource Lola Hendricks discusses her time serving as the Corresponding Secretary for the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights in Birmingham. She organized communication, meetings and funds. She demonstrated and worked closely with Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950119H Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-01-19 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/b436fc080177d548ed9b7652ea9c0505.jpg 0bcc91d8dd2ea646a726710ed481fd23 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Louphenia Thomas OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=LThomas1998.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. African American women legislators OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.3 June 17, 1998 Louphenia Thomas Interviewed on June 17, 1998 19980617T 0:50:30 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Jessica Holdnak Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Dixon, Joe Alabama and Tennessee Coal and Iron Company African American women legislators Louphenia Thomas Horace Huntley Video 1:|31(7)|72(8)|103(5)|125(5)|136(14)|168(7)|202(10)|223(2)|252(5)|274(1)|298(1)|320(2)|344(6)|358(2)|376(4)|393(7)|410(2)|435(5)|457(6)|488(7)|515(7)|527(5)|548(3)|574(6)|586(14)|604(14)|618(5)|638(5)|649(10)|665(13)|679(1)|690(7)|701(1)|713(5)|729(7)|744(14)|758(6)|781(8)|802(15)|816(11)|835(10)|846(11)|861(10)|869(15)|885(3)|908(10)|927(10)|937(7)|945(1)|956(9) 0 https://youtu.be/xOqXSz1SRd0 YouTube video English 0 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Ms. Louphenia Thomas for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute’s Oral History Project. Introduction to the interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history interview African American women civil rights workers--Biography ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Oral histories 29 Early Life and Family I would just like to ask you: were you born in Birmingham? Ms. Thomas describes where she grew up and her family background. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Coosa County (Ala.) ; Parents Coosa County (Ala.) ; Family history 93 Early Education Now, Coosa County, that’s where you started then your schooling. Ms. Thomas describes her early education in Coosa County at Coosa County Elementary School and Coosa County Training School. . African Americans--Education (Elementary) ; African Americans--Education (Secondary) ; Coosa County (Ala.) African American women ; African Americans--Education (Elementary) ; African Americans--Education (Secondary) ; African Americans--History ; Coosa County (Ala.) ; Great Depression 236 Growing Up in Coosa County What was it like growing up in Coosa County during those days? Ms. Thomas discusses her impression of growing up in Coosa County during the 1930's. She mentions her father and his position in the community. African Americans--History ; Coosa County (Ala.) ; Father ; Great Depression African Americans--History ; Childhood ; Great Depression 332 Move to Birmingham Now, you came to Birmingham I guess your senior year in high school. Is that when you came to Birmingham? Ms. Thomas describes moving to Birmingham and Fairfield High school for the eleventh grade. She mentions being married and having a child. African Americans--Marriage ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Eleventh grade (Education) ; Fairfield High School ; Rural-urban migration African Americans--Education (Secondary) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Fairfeild High School 490 Fairfield High School What was Fairfield High School like at that time? Ms. Thomas talks about her experience as a student in Fairfield High School. African American women--Education ; African Americans--Education (Secondary) ; Fairfield High School African American women--Education ; African Americans--Education (Secondary) ; Fairfield High School 534 Husband and Coal Mines What kind of work did your husband do? Ms. Thomas explains her husbands work at the time of their move to Birmingham. He worked in coal mines for TCI. African American men ; African Americans--Marriage ; Alabama and Tennessee Coal and Iron Company ; Coal mines and mining ; Husband ; U.S. Steel African American men ; African Americans--Marriage ; Alabama and Tennessee Coal and Iron Company ; Coal mines and mining ; U.S. Steel 570 Education After High School Then after you finished high school then what did you do? Ms. Thomas describes her experience with higher education. She discusses studying cosmetology and opening a beauty shop as well as being president of a beauticians' organization. She mentions having a child. She talks about going back to school to be a teacher and her first job as a teacher in Bessemer State Technical College. African American women college students ; African American women college teachers ; African American women--Education ; African Americans--Education (Higher) ; Bessemer State Technical College ; cosmetology ; family ; Lawson State ; Miles College African American women college students ; African American women college teachers ; African American women--Education ; African Americans--Education (Higher) ; Beauty shop ; Bessemer State Technical College ; cosmetology ; family ; Lawson State ; Miles College 700 Voter Registration Now when you went to Miles were you a registered voter by that time? Ms. Thomas describes registering to vote at age 21 and dealing with a property qualification to register. African Americans--Civil rights ; African Americans--Civil rights--History ; Voter registration--United States African Americans--Civil rights--History ; Voter registration 789 Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights In ‘56, one week after the state outlaws the operation of the NAACP, the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights would be organized. Were you at all familiar with any of the ministers that were involved? Or were you at all involved in those initial stages? Ms. Thomas discusses allowing the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights use one of her buildings to help with voter registration. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights 917 Involvement in Politics 1960's Now, you became rather active in politics in the mid ‘60's. Tell me just a bit about that. How did you get involved in politics? Ms. Thompson describes getting involved in politics in the 1960's, and running for office. She mentions being a community leader. African American women legislators ; African Americans--Politics and government ; Civil rights movement African American women legislators ; African Americans--Politics and government ; Civil rights movement 1163 Community and Business Leadership You were a community leader. T: And running a business there. I had a coffee shop there too that Miles College really supported. Ms. Thomas talks about owning a coffee shop and a beauty shop. African American business enterprises ; Miles College African American business enterprises 1229 Running for Office At what point did you decide to run for office yourself? Ms. Thomas describes running for Alabama district 39 (now 53) and winning the seat. She mentions the death of a daughter when running for a second term. African American women politicians ; Democratic Party (Ala.) ; Hood, David ; Women in politics African American women politicians ; Democratic Party (Ala.) ; Women and politics 1435 First Black Woman in State Legislature What was it like serving? Now you were the first black woman to serve in the state legislature. Ms. Thomas describes her experience in the Alabama legislature. African American women legislators African American women legislators 1504 Lawson State Funding What do you think was your most proud accomplishment? T: Well, I’ll tell you what. You know Governor Wallace has all these two year institutions, two year colleges, you know. Ms. Thomas describes getting funding for Lawson State. Education, Higher--United States--Finance ; Jefferson County (Ala.) ; Lawson State Education, Higher--United States--Finance ; Jefferson County (Ala.) ; Lawson State 1751 Experience as a Legislator Yes ma’am. Was there a black caucus at that time? Ms. Thomas describes her experience as a legislator. African American women legislators ; Democratic Party (Ala.) African American women legislators 1926 Cross Over Voting There’s a controversy now in relationship to cross over voting. Ms. Thomas talks about party politics and not liking cross over voting. African Americans--Politics and government ; cross over voting ; Voting ; Voting--United States African Americans--Politics and government ; cross over voting ; Voting--United States 2165 Change in Political Parties Over Time How do you think the Party has changed over time? In terms of what is good for the black constituency. Has the Democratic Party been good for black folk? Has the Republican Party been totally out of it as far as black folk are concerned? How do you view that? Ms. Thomas gives her opinion about how political parties have change over the years. She talks about how black favor the Democratic Party and that they should vote for what is best for the black community. American political parties and elections ; Political parties--United States American political parties and elections ; Political parties--United States--History 2331 Joe Dixon Of course you know fiery Joe will get up there and clown like everything in the middle of all of them. Really, you don’t have to worry about it. They have had to listen. I noticed just recently they made Joe a national member. You see you’ve got to get blacks in that Republican thing to see what it’s all about. Ms. Thomas talks about Joe Dixon. She mentions Guy Hunt and Richard Finley. Dixon, Joe ; Republican Party (Ala.) Dixon, Joe ; Republican Party (Ala.) 2453 Future of Black People and Politics in Alabama What do you see then as the future of blacks and politics in the state of Alabama? Ms. Thomas talks about the future of black politics and the need for political education and involvement. African Americans--Politics and government African Americans--Politics and government 2596 Mayor Richard Arrington How would evaluate Dick Arrington’s 20 years as mayor of Birmingham? Ms. Thomas talks about Mayor Richard Arrington. She mentions signing for him at the PTA when he was a child. Arrington, Richard Arrington, Richard ; Birmingham (Ala.). Mayor 2668 Maps (Metropolitan Area Projects Strategy) I don’t know whether I could just totally agree with MAPS or not. I’ll have to give it some more, you know, attach more attention to it. Ms. Thomas talks about MAPS in Birmingham. MAPS ; Metropolitan Area Projects Strategy MAPS ; Metropolitan Area Projects Strategy 2827 Administrative Positions for Women I’ll tell you one thing I’ll like to see given more consideration in this town. More administrative positions for women, you see. Ms. Thomas expresses a wish to see more women hired in administrate positions, She mentions her time on the Birmingham Regional Health Systems Agency. African American women ; Birmingham regional health systems agency ; women in administration African American women ; women in administration 3003 Conclusion I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule and come and sit and talk with me. The end. Oral history interview Oral history interview Oral History Louphenia Thomas discusses her experience being the first black woman in the Alabama Legislature and the progression of politics after her term. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Louphenia Thomas for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I&#039 ; m Dr. Horace Huntley ; we&#039 ; re presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is June 17, 1998. I want to thank you Ms. Thomas for coming and spending some time with me this morning. Welcome to the Institute. THOMAS: Thank you for inviting me. HUNTLEY: I would just like to ask you: were you born in Birmingham? THOMAS: No, no. HUNTLEY: Where were you born? THOMAS: I was born in Coosa County, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Coosa County? THOMAS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And were your parents from Coosa County? THOMAS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Yes, ma&#039 ; am. Did they own property there? THOMAS: Yes. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your father do? THOMAS: My father ran a blacksmith shop. You know what that is? HUNTLEY: Yes ma&#039 ; am. THOMAS: He had farmed. Where abouts he had other people working on the farm. HUNTLEY: So, did he own the farm? THOMAS: He owned the farm. HUNTLEY: Ok, so he had people working there for him. THOMAS: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: How much education did your mother and father have? THOMAS: Well, they didn&#039 ; t have...my father had a high school education. My mother didn&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: Did she work outside of the home? THOMAS: No, she didn&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have? THOMAS: I had one brother. HUNTLEY: Was he older or younger? THOMAS: Younger. HUNTLEY: Now, Coosa County, that&#039 ; s where you started then your schooling. THOMAS: In Coosa County. HUNTLEY: Do you remember your first grade? THOMAS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about that. What was that like? THOMAS: Oh, it was a one room building, as they called them school houses. HUNTLEY: Yes, ma&#039 ; am. THOMAS: The teacher there was a Mr. Swindle. We would sometime walk to school. It wasn&#039 ; t to far on Highway 231. That&#039 ; s 231 going from Sylacauga to Montgomery. HUNTLEY: Right, that&#039 ; s right. THOMAS: We would get on that highway to go to school. School wasn&#039 ; t too far. HUNTLEY: THOMAS: Now did you have more then one grade in that school in one class? You mean in that building? HUNTLEY: Yes ma&#039 ; am. THOMAS: In that building I think they had, if I remember correctly, it was two. HUNTLEY: Two classrooms? THOMAS: Yes, two classrooms. HUNTLEY: Now that of course was a rural community. Is that right? THOMAS: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: And the name of the community was Equality? Is that the name of the community? THOMAS: Well now that was a little distance from where I grew up. It was on my birth certificate- I believe that Equality was the place I was born. HUNTLEY: Ok, that&#039 ; s where the Post Office was? THOMAS: Yes, that&#039 ; s where the Post Office was. They delivered mail out on the highway. HUNTLEY: I see and you went...that first school that you went...was that the Coosa County, Coosa City Elementary School or County? THOMAS: It was Coosa County Elementary School. HUNTLEY: And you went from first grade through? THOMAS: First grade through, it&#039 ; s usually fifth isn&#039 ; t it? HUNTLEY: Yeah, fifth or sixth grade. THOMAS: Sixth grade, something like that. After that I attended the Coosa County Training School. You know they had training schools, high schools weren&#039 ; t there at that time. HUNTLEY: Right. What was it like growing up in Coosa County during those days? THOMAS: It was very nice. The whites, so to speak had a lot of respect for my father. I very well remember that. Each time that I go there I ask for some of those white folks. They&#039 ; re all about dead now. They were very respectful of my father. HUNTLEY: This is, you grew up in the &#039 ; 30&#039 ; s. This was during the Depression years, right? THOMAS: Yes, but I never did know what a Depression was. Even though I was in the country or rural area we had plenty. I didn&#039 ; t know what the Depression was. When I came to Birmingham they were pushing those little red wagons going to the Red Cross or somewhere getting food and bringing it back. I didn&#039 ; t know what that was when I came here. HUNTLEY: That was different for you. You had not experienced that. THOMAS: No, we had plenty. HUNTLEY: Now your father being a blacksmith. Was it his blacksmith shop? THOMAS: It was his blacksmith shop. HUNTLEY: So that would then put you in a rather privileged position then, as a family. THOMAS: Yes, that&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Then he had the farm as well? THOMAS: Yes, he had a farm. HUNTLEY: Then he, people work for him on the farm. THOMAS: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Now, you came to Birmingham I guess your senior year in high school. Is that when you came to Birmingham? THOMAS: My senior year in high school, yes. I think I was in the eleventh grade when I came here. I went to Fairfield High School that other year. HUNTLEY: Did you live in Fairfield? THOMAS: I didn&#039 ; t live in Fairfield then, but I moved to Fairfield later. HUNTLEY: When you were going to school in Fairfield, your eleventh grade. What community did move into? THOMAS: I lived in Rising over here. HUNTLEY: Near the ballpark. THOMAS: Rickwood Park. HUNTLEY: Oh, ok. You went to Fairfield to school. Why did you go to Fairfield? THOMAS: To tell you the truth I really don&#039 ; t know. It must have been somebody I met who was going there. HUNTLEY: Right. THOMAS: I had a child, baby at that time. The Elliots, I don&#039 ; t know if you know them of the city of Birmingham. You know they had their own property out there by Rickwood. HUNTLEY: Right. THOMAS: Sam Harris, you remember him? HUNTLEY: I remember the name. THOMAS: You know he was a doctor but he died. HUNTLEY: He lived in that same community? THOMAS: No, they owned some property out there. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. So, when you came to Birmingham in the eleventh grade. You lived in Rising but you went to school at Fairfield. So, you were there for two years then? THOMAS: Yes, not quite two years. HUNTLEY: Oh, ok, so it was like the middle of the school year. Why did you come to Birmingham? THOMAS: Well, I got married and my husband got a job here and I came here then. HUNTLEY: Oh, ok. You were married then when you finished high school. THOMAS: I was married when I finished high school. You know at that time they didn&#039 ; t allow you to go to school if you were married but the teachers out there vouched for me to go to school for some reason. HUNTLEY: Ok. Well, how was the transition then from a rural community to an urban community? THOMAS: It wasn&#039 ; t bad. I hadn&#039 ; t lived just a country life per say, cause through my father I had mixed with different people you know. HUNTLEY: Right. THOMAS: It wasn&#039 ; t too hard for me. HUNTLEY: What was Fairfield High School like at that time? THOMAS: It was nice, very nice. You know Fairfield High School was one of your better high schools. I don&#039 ; t know whether you remember that or not. HUNTLEY: Yes ma&#039 ; am, I do. THOMAS: But your [inaudible] finished that to. HUNTLEY: Right, right. THOMAS: We had a principal there who was a good principal, Dr. E. J. Oliver. You&#039 ; ve heard of him? HUNTLEY: Yes ma&#039 ; am, sure have. THOMAS: I enjoyed going to school there that year. HUNTLEY: Right. THOMAS: That year and a half anyway. I think they bent over a little bit to let me go to school in the middle of the year. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your husband do? THOMAS: Well, my husband worked for U.S. Steel. He had a job with them. HUNTLEY: Did he work in the plant, in the mills, or did he work in the mines? THOMAS: He worked in the mines. That was U. S. Steel wasn&#039 ; t it? HUNTLEY: Right, yes ma&#039 ; am, TCI. THOMAS: Yeah, that&#039 ; s right, TCI. HUNTLEY: Did he work in the ore mines or the coal mines? THOMAS: Coal mines. It was two or three of those fellows that were from Coosa County that worked in the coal mines. They got the job here. HUNTLEY: Then after you finished high school then what did you do? THOMAS: My first thing was I had a child after that. I took a course in cosmetology. I went into the beauty field for a while. I had a shop, a beauty shop. I had a lot of interest in that. I had a very, very good business. Of course you know they have a very strong beauticians&#039 ; organization. HUNTLEY: Yes ma&#039 ; am. THOMAS: I was elected president of that for, I think I remained president statewide for eleven years. HUNTLEY: So, you were in that career field for quite sometime? THOMAS: Yes, quite sometime. Then I went back to school during that time. I went back to Miles and finished Miles. Then on from there. HUNTLEY: What did you do after you finished Miles? THOMAS: Well, after I finished Miles I got a job. My first job was at Bessemer State Technical College. You know down in Bessemer. You know where that it? HUNTLEY: Yes ma&#039 ; am. THOMAS: I was transferred from there to Lawson State. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. THOMAS: You know how they were transferring courses and things at that time. The state was. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to leave the beauty field to go into teaching? THOMAS: Well, you know there are such things as you can see the handwriting on the wall. That you see that you are going to need more education to become involved in some of the things that you want to do. I&#039 ; ve always never been satisfied with status quo. I went on back to Miles and ran my beauty [shop] all at the same time. HUNTLEY: Where was your shop? THOMAS: In Fairfield. HUNTLEY: Now when you went to Miles were you a registered voter by that time? THOMAS: Yes. You could register at the age of 21. Wasn&#039 ; t that it? HUNTLEY: Yes ma&#039 ; am. THOMAS: Yeah. HUNTLEY: Do you remember when you first registered to vote here in Birmingham? THOMAS: When I first went to register to vote they told me that I had to show them that I owned $300.00 worth of property in the county. That was ridiculous wasn&#039 ; t it? HUNTLEY: Yes, it was. THOMAS: I had to go back and get a piece of paper. HUNTLEY: Property qualification? THOMAS: That&#039 ; s true. HUNTLEY: You had to take that back? THOMAS: Yes, back to them and I intended to vote. I went on and got it and carried it to them another time. HUNTLEY: Did you have to take the test? Was there a test given at the time? THOMAS: No, they were not giving a test during that time. They had to have that information. I guess that was to subsidize for something, you know. HUNTLEY: Well, it eliminated some people. THOMAS: Yes, it would, especially blacks at that time. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. In the mid &#039 ; 50&#039 ; s, of course 1954, the Brown vs. Board of Education decision nullified the separate but equal doctrine that was the Plessy vs. Ferguson decision. Of course here in Birmingham the schools would not be desegregated for at least another ten years. Right after that, of course, the bus boycott in Montgomery would take place. Then the NAACP would be outlawed from operating in the state. In &#039 ; 56, one week after the state outlaws the operation of the NAACP, the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights would be organized. Were you at all familiar with any of the ministers that were involved? Or were you at all involved in those initial stages? THOMAS: Yes, I let the group, who&#039 ; s headed by...what&#039 ; s this minister&#039 ; s name? He was...they had a Christian Movement. HUNTLEY: Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. THOMAS: What was the presidents name? HUNTLEY: Rev. Shuttlesworth. THOMAS: No, it wasn&#039 ; t Shuttlesworth. That was before Shuttlesworth&#039 ; s time. Anyway, I let them use a building of mine in Fairfield cause I owned a corner there and I had an extra building besides my business building. I let them use the building and furnished them with telephones during the movement to help them get folks registered to vote. They were supplying transportation and that kind of thing. HUNTLEY: Right. THOMAS: When they left...you know how the folks that used to come out of town to do that? HUNTLEY: Right. THOMAS: A lot of them put long distance calls on my phone. I say you can&#039 ; t win for losing. Anyway I went on with it. Trying to help. HUNTLEY: Now, you became rather active in politics in the mid &#039 ; 60&#039 ; s. Tell me just a bit about that. How did you get involved in politics? THOMAS: Well, I&#039 ; ll tell you what. Living in Fairfield, they did not have a single black on the council out there. So, the people came to me who were interested in running as a candidate for a seat on the council. They asked me if I would be their campaign manager. Out there in Fairfield they had a building called the Moore&#039 ; s Hall, kind of Christian organization. I agreed, there were seven who qualified to run. HUNTLEY: Approximately what year is this? THOMAS: That was 1969. I agreed, I told them if they all would work from one pool I would serve all of them. HUNTLEY: So, you were there campaign manager for each of those? All seven? THOMAS: Together. We used the same building. All of them worked in the same building. Out of the seven, six won. Those were the first Black council persons elected out there. HUNTLEY: So, you elected six out of the seven? THOMAS: We walked the streets. We went to churches. We raised our money. We didn&#039 ; t spend, the candidates didn&#039 ; t have to spend any money. We had mass meetings at churches and things like that and raising money. I got those ministers going. HUNTLEY: That was the question I was going to ask. How did you get the people out? THOMAS: The people came there. I got those ministers to help me get the people out. They supported it. Fairfield was so happy too ; you know people there were so happy that they had some blacks on the council. HUNTLEY: Now this was the first time that blacks actually served? Or was it the first time that blacks had run for office? THOMAS: No, first time they had served and elected. They had not even tried to run for office. HUNTLEY: So, this is the very first time that anyone had attempted to run. THOMAS: Yes. HUNTLEY: You got six out of how many were on the council? THOMAS: Well, at that time I think they had, how many did they have? They had about nine. HUNTLEY: So, they were elected by district? THOMAS: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: So, these seven people were not competing against each other? THOMAS: No, I&#039 ; ll tell you what had to happen before that. Attorney David Hoods, you&#039 ; ve heard of him back there? HUNTLEY: Yes, ma&#039 ; am. THOMAS: We were very close friends. We districted Fairfield in order for persons to have districts to run from. We got that straightened out and that&#039 ; s when they became. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s very interesting because that then opens a door for many other things to take place. THOMAS: Yes, since then they&#039 ; ve always had blacks on the council. HUNTLEY: Right. Why did they come to you? THOMAS: Well, I&#039 ; ve always been involved in community things. Even from PTA days when my child was in school. I was interested in PTA then they had a Democratic little group out there and all that kind of thing. You know at that time no blacks were Republicans. HUNTLEY: Right. THOMAS: I would always go to their meetings. I worked in the PTA. I was one of the presidents at the time. You know, stuff like that. HUNTLEY: So, you were rather visible in the community? THOMAS: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: You were a community leader. THOMAS: And running a business there. I had a coffee shop there too that Miles College really supported. HUNTLEY: The coffee shop that was in Fairfield, you owned that? THOMAS: Yes. I had a coffee shop and the next building connected to that was my beauty shop. You didn&#039 ; t go to Miles did you? HUNTLEY: No, ma&#039 ; am but I know that coffee shop. I spent a lot of time at that coffee shop. THOMAS: You did? HUNTLEY: Yes, ma&#039 ; am. THOMAS: That was my business. I built it from the ground. Anyway, when I said Miles supported it. The students supported it. I look around 6th Avenue a lot of times and I see a lot of them over there that used to come to my coffee shop. HUNTLEY: Right. THOMAS: Get sandwiches on credit. One day I told Chris, you know, runs the limousine thing? HUNTLEY: Yes, ma&#039 ; am. THOMAS: Chris, have you ever payed me for my hamburgers? He just started laughing. HUNTLEY: I&#039 ; m sure there are some that didn&#039 ; t pay you for them. THOMAS: Yeah. HUNTLEY: At what point did you decide to run for office yourself? THOMAS: I was in Birmingham, you know at that time. Do you remember Judge Vance? HUNTLEY: Yes ma&#039 ; am. THOMAS: Robert Vance that was killed with that bomb? HUNTLEY: Yes ma&#039 ; am. THOMAS: I started going to the meetings with David Hood all the time. To the state Democratic meetings and things like that. I was elected as a member of the state Democratic Committee of Alabama. Judge Vance, we were in Washington, he said, &quot ; Louphenia there&#039 ; s a vacancy in district 39. Why don&#039 ; t you run? You are always talking about women don&#039 ; t do this, that, and the other.&quot ; I liked him a lot -- he was a nice fellow. I told him, &quot ; You&#039 ; re joking. You know women ain&#039 ; t going to win nothing and especially a black woman.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, you&#039 ; ve got all the black voters.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Come on and try it.&quot ; He was president of the state Party at that time. He got me in there to run in district 39 then but it&#039 ; s 53 now, see Newton&#039 ; s in that district now. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. THOMAS: The Party got me in there. They didn&#039 ; t put me in there empty handed either with no money or nothing. They gave me money. HUNTLEY: They supported you? THOMAS: Very, and they even came out and helped me campaign. Don Singleman, he used to go door to door for me over in the white neighborhood. I think it&#039 ; s a small neighborhood in district 53, but Don Singleman and all of them helped. HUNTLEY: What year was this that you first ran? THOMAS: That was, what year was I elected, 1976 or 1977, something like that. Anyway, you know Fred Horn ran against me? HUNTLEY: Right. THOMAS: And Wren, you remember Wren? He was a [inaudible]. HUNTLEY: Tommy Wren? THOMAS: That&#039 ; s right. He was one of them that ran that time against me but I won out over them. So, that was the way that was. I still was elected as a national committee person of the Democratic Party. HUNTLEY: Did you serve one term? THOMAS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide...Did you run for a second term? THOMAS: Yes, that&#039 ; s when Fred won. HUNTLEY: Oh, ok, Fred won then. THOMAS: Had one of my daughters to pass at that time. HUNTLEY: I didn&#039 ; t know that. THOMAS: You didn&#039 ; t know my daughter did you? HUNTLEY: No, ma&#039 ; am. THOMAS: She went to church. She finished Talladega. You know all those folks up there, Talladegians, Mason Davis and all them went to school at Talladega. She joined up there. She got married and she died in &#039 ; 78. That was the year that I was supposed to be reelected but she died. HUNTLEY: What was it like serving? Now you were the first black woman to serve in the state legislature. THOMAS: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: What was the experience like? THOMAS: Well, it was a great experience. When I went there, there were 104 whites, all male. They treated me very, very nice. I think they had a reason or else I had the personality that they really admired. Anyway, I enjoyed it. Then a lady was elected from St. Clair County. She was white. I enjoyed it. They were very nice. Very nice in helping me to understand the rules. You know the rule book in legislature that&#039 ; s your political bible they say. They helped me a lot. Of course everybody who goes there has to learn it and I did. I gained a lot from it. HUNTLEY: What do you think was your most proud accomplishment? THOMAS: Well, I&#039 ; ll tell you what. You know Governor Wallace has all these two year institutions, two year colleges, you know. HUNTLEY: Right. THOMAS: They were there lined up one day and all of them -- at that time you had about seven blacks from Jefferson County serving in the legislature - Jackson, you know. HUNTLEY: Ronald Jackson. THOMAS: Ronald Jackson, Tucker, Hillard, oh, a bunch of them, seven of them. They had never gotten a dime for any of the schools here. I saw all those folks in line going to the speaker of the house. I said, what are they in line for? Some of them told me that they are getting money for those junior colleges. I said well we&#039 ; ve got a junior college. So, I got up and got in line. The blacks told me that you&#039 ; re losing your time. You&#039 ; re wasting your time, you might as well sit down. I stayed in that line and when I got up there to the Speaker of the House he said, &quot ; come and talk with me.&quot ; I did, later. I got the most segregated person here from Jefferson County. He could win any bill, he could push it through. HUNTLEY: Who was that? THOMAS: What was his name? He was out here in the eastern section. HUNTLEY: Oh, ok, eastern section. THOMAS: I kept on going and I would go up there and Wallace sent for me. Wallace and those folks helped me get 2.2 million dollars for Lawson State. HUNTLEY: Is that right? THOMAS: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: So, that&#039 ; s the first money Lawson State had received from the state? THOMAS: That&#039 ; s the first they had ever received above the regular appropriation. HUNTLEY: Right. THOMAS: Every school got their annual appropriation. They had never gotten a dime over that before. Jessie Lewis came into the presidency there afterwards. It got messed up somehow. I&#039 ; ll admit that. I didn&#039 ; t like it. Anyway, they had the 2.2 million dollars. That was either 1978, &#039 ; 79 bond issue. HUNTLEY: Was [inaudible] Kennedy president then? THOMAS: No, Jessie came after Kennedy. That was Kennedy&#039 ; s last year. HUNTLEY: So, you then assisted Lawson State in receiving more money. THOMAS: I didn&#039 ; t assist Lawson State. Lawson State hadn&#039 ; t even applied for any money. I just went on and got that money myself. I got those white fellows to help. When I got the money all the blacks been there eight years, they said you mean to tell me that you got it. I said, yes, I did, I got it and it will be sent to Lawson State. They didn&#039 ; t want to believe it. I said well, you all don&#039 ; t get up and try and see what you can do. You just sit here one time. I remember Tucker trying to get some money for Hudson out there. He didn&#039 ; t get anywhere with it. You know you got to get in with the folks that handle the money. HUNTLEY: Yes ma&#039 ; am. Was there a black caucus at that time? THOMAS: No, well, yes it was, but it wasn&#039 ; t too strong at that time because you didn&#039 ; t have as many blacks, you know, black executive officials at that time, but now you have them from Selma and everywhere. They have a good black caucus now. I&#039 ; m not messing up this am I? HUNTLEY: No, that&#039 ; s fine. So, you then, your most memorable accomplishment was the getting of 2.2 million dollars for Lawson State. THOMAS: Yes, I think it was. HUNTLEY: Were there other areas that you worked in that you&#039 ; re proud of in terms of assisting your contingency? THOMAS: Well, it wasn&#039 ; t during the time that I was there, they weren&#039 ; t too aggressive about doing nothing too much. Your legislative groups waste a lot of time sitting, looking, talking, eating. I tell them they eat peanuts and read newspapers. Anyway, they didn&#039 ; t promote many projects or anything for their districts. I think that, that has improved some now. HUNTLEY: Were you able to promote any other projects for your district? Did you show them in other areas that it could be done? THOMAS: Well, I talked to the people in my district to let me know if they had other things that they would like to accomplish. But you know folks don&#039 ; t foresee what they need to tell their representatives and they don&#039 ; t give you too much to go on, you see. They do more now then they did then. We need to as a community people and our various districts have more to ask of your representatives to do. They will not be able to sit and think of everything that you would like to have. HUNTLEY: Are you still actively involved with the Democratic Party? THOMAS: Oh, yes. I go to their meetings and things. You know they have a state Party and that&#039 ; s about it. I don&#039 ; t travel any more. I traveled for eight years with them on a national level. That was when Judge Vance was involved. If he hadn&#039 ; t been killed he would have been the national chairman. All of those people had so much respect for him. HUNTLEY: There&#039 ; s a controversy now in relationship to cross over voting. THOMAS: I&#039 ; m not to much for that cross over voting. I don&#039 ; t know whether you are Republican or a Democrat. I&#039 ; m a Democrat and I don&#039 ; t go for the cross over voting. Of course I heard Mayor Arrington say for them to go and vote. He&#039 ; s encouraging Democrats to cross over. Now, he doesn&#039 ; t speak for me. He speaks for Richard Arrington. He can&#039 ; t speak for the Party because he doesn&#039 ; t hold an office in the Party other then a delegate. I never did believe in cross over voting. I guess in this case if the people are not satisfied with what they have then they would have to go to the poll and cross over. HUNTLEY: Well some are suggesting that you cross over to help either Blount or Fob and you help to determine who the opponent of the Democrat would be. THOMAS: Yeah, I heard that too, which would be favorable for Don Siegelman. Well, if it will I will do anything to help Don. I&#039 ; m just talking about my belief as far. I don&#039 ; t much believe in cross over voting. HUNTLEY: So, do you think, some say that people will be confused by crossing over because if you cross over to vote Republican then you have a stake in that candidate that you vote for and then come November these black people that voted cross over may go back to the poll again and vote for the Republican. Have you heard that argument? THOMAS: Well, I don&#039 ; t much believe they will do that. They&#039 ; re looking at the individual. If they are for the Democratic first they&#039 ; ll vote for the Democratic even if they did vote. HUNTLEY: So, you don&#039 ; t think have... THOMAS: I don&#039 ; t think that will have to much bearing on it. HUNTLEY: Some say that will give more value to the black vote. In fact if you go and vote Republican this time because it puts more value on your vote now because the Democrat will not take the black vote for granted. Some say that the Democrats are taking the black vote for granted. If there&#039 ; s just one on one, Republican and Democrat, the Democrat simply assumes that blacks are going to vote Democratic. With really having to give the black community any real serious look. Is that... THOMAS: That has some value. You know people are kind of like this. They go for the person. So many people, especially blacks don&#039 ; t know too much about the Republican Party anyway. Most blacks have voted Democratic all these years. So, I don&#039 ; t know, they go by some individuals. How much that individual impressed them. HUNTLEY: You think they go by the person rather then the party? THOMAS: I think so. Sometimes they do. I&#039 ; m strictly for party. HUNTLEY: Right. THOMAS: A lot of folks haven&#039 ; t been involved in party politics so to speak. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. THOMAS: And a lot of them have. I don&#039 ; t know. HUNTLEY: How do you think the Party has changed over time? In terms of what is good for the black constituency. Has the Democratic Party been good for black folk? Has the Republican Party been totally out of it as far as black folk are concerned? How do you view that? THOMAS: Well, you know blacks always thought that the Republican Party consisted of the elites. You know how we like to stay away from that. You don&#039 ; t have to many black Republicans anyway. Blacks have always favored the Democratic Party. Now you have some blacks. Richard Finley, he&#039 ; s a Republican and we always talk about it. You don&#039 ; t have too many Republicans, black Republicans. HUNTLEY: Probably have more now than we did ten years ago. THOMAS: Yeah, you have more. HUNTLEY: It&#039 ; s a few more. THOMAS: I&#039 ; ve noticed quite a few more. HUNTLEY: Still black folks primarily vote Democratically. THOMAS: That&#039 ; s correct, yeah, they do. What do you think? I know I&#039 ; m not supposed to ask you questions. (Laughing) HUNTLEY: Well, I just think that whatever anyway that the black community can [inaudible] any semblance of power. I think they need to do that regardless of what that means as far as the Democratic or the Republican Party is concerned. THOMAS: What&#039 ; s best for them. HUNTLEY: What&#039 ; s best for the black community. I don&#039 ; t think anyone in the other parties are looking out for the best interest of black people. I think black people have to do that regardless of who they may encounter. Of course to date we have looked at that as being a Democratic thrust rather than a Republican thrust, you know. I think we have to start evaluating. I think it&#039 ; s a good thing to also look at the individuals and see what... THOMAS: And evaluate the parties too. HUNTLEY: Yes ma&#039 ; am. THOMAS: That&#039 ; s correct, I think so. Whatever&#039 ; s best for us. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. THOMAS: Now, I&#039 ; ll tell you what. The blacks really haven&#039 ; t gotten into the Republican Party and pushed. We have pushed in the Democratic Party. All of us have pushed for blacks. Nobody has been in the Republican Party to really push for them. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. THOMAS: Of course you know fiery Joe will get up there and clown like everything in the middle of all of them. Really, you don&#039 ; t have to worry about it. They have had to listen. I noticed just recently they made Joe a national member. You see you&#039 ; ve got to get blacks in that Republican thing to see what it&#039 ; s all about. HUNTLEY: So, you think there&#039 ; s a need for people like Richard Finley who&#039 ; s in the Republican Party. Joe Dixon... THOMAS: Yeah, Joe, I&#039 ; ve been knowing him all his life. You know Joe&#039 ; s got a big mouth. You know he&#039 ; s [inaudible] among the Republicans. Of course Joe was always in my coffee shop, a regular, you know. You remember Rambo that was out there at Miles? HUNTLEY: I didn&#039 ; t go to Miles. THOMAS: Anyway, I don&#039 ; t know when Joe started with the Republican Party. HUNTLEY: I&#039 ; m not sure when Joe began either. THOMAS: Anyway, Joe was kind of trying to push his way into some of the officers of the Party at one time, I believe. HUNTLEY: Right, until Fob, no not Fob, the previous Governor and Joe, I think, had somewhat difficulty. THOMAS: Who was the Governor before Fob James? HUNTLEY: Guy Hunt. I think they fell out. THOMAS: I never did care for Guy Hunt. HUNTLEY: What do you see then as the future of blacks and politics in the state of Alabama? THOMAS: I see a bright future for them if they would just stick to their guns. I think that, you said in politics or in a particular party? HUNTLEY: In politics, in general. THOMAS: More of them need to become involved in politics. Most of our people are lost when it comes to even general conversation about politics. I&#039 ; ve been to club groups and things and you&#039 ; ll be surprised the number of your school teachers. You better not ask them the name of their representative in their district. They don&#039 ; t know. I tell them each time that, that&#039 ; s a shame. Suppose if I was a student of yours and asked you that and you wouldn&#039 ; t know. See, those kinds of things. Those are small things but it&#039 ; s something that you people should learn to do. They don&#039 ; t know their representatives in their district, no. Today just ask some of the folk over there on 6th Avenue. Who is the state representative over here in this district. They wouldn&#039 ; t tell you Demetrius Newton. They wouldn&#039 ; t know. That&#039 ; s a short coming for us. HUNTLEY: Political education is so important and they&#039 ; re not doing a good job with that. THOMAS: In our church we don&#039 ; t have anything like that. They should understand that they should have some kind of activities committee or political activities committee in the church. Let them just generally discuss it. You don&#039 ; t have to say what party you believe in or nothing, but I think that should go along with it. HUNTLEY: How would evaluate Dick Arrington&#039 ; s 20 years as mayor of Birmingham? THOMAS: Well, actually I think Mayor Arrington has done an excellent job of trying to build the city. He&#039 ; s done very well in approving the appearance in various communities in the city limits. I think he&#039 ; s done a very good job. Now I must be fair, I&#039 ; ve been knowing Richard since he was in knee pants. I used to sign in for him at PTA meetings because his parents didn&#039 ; t go to PTA meetings. We all lived in Fairfield. He has done well but I think we need a change now. After you stay in a place for so long you get tired. You&#039 ; ve accomplished what you&#039 ; ve wanted to accomplish now let somebody else have it. That&#039 ; s my opinion. I&#039 ; ve got nothing against Arrington. He has his peculiarities. HUNTLEY: What do you think about the thrust for MAPS at this point? THOMAS: I don&#039 ; t know whether I could just totally agree with MAPS or not. I&#039 ; ll have to give it some more, you know, attach more attention to it. HUNTLEY: Right. That seems to be one of the questions that&#039 ; s going to be coming up this summer of course. THOMAS: About the MAPS? HUNTLEY: Yes ma&#039 ; am. THOMAS: I know they&#039 ; re putting out signs and so forth. It hasn&#039 ; t impressed the community yet. Who is the man that&#039 ; s the director of it? He is a Persian man. What is his name? HUNTLEY: Hess, Donald Hess. THOMAS: I don&#039 ; t think he&#039 ; s quite familiar with how to really push something over, to put it over, you know. HUNTLEY: Right. THOMAS: Maybe he is, I don&#039 ; t know. I don&#039 ; t really know him. HUNTLEY: It&#039 ; s going to be interesting though. Many people look at it as being a Birmingham incentive and many whites that live outside of the city will look at it in that manner and will vote against it because of that. THOMAS: Yeah, they will. HUNTLEY: Then there are those in the city who are agreeing with the concept of MAPS because it will improve the city overall but they&#039 ; re really concerned that black contractors and other blacks, like attorneys, are not getting the same kind of benefits out of MAPS like they should be. THOMAS: You mean they have included them up to this point as they should. HUNTLEY: Yes ma&#039 ; am. So, those are the kinds of criticisms people are raising about it. THOMAS: They need to pay more attention to that and make some guarantees to some of these contractors and things. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. THOMAS: I noticed the architects. They haven&#039 ; t included Woods and Owens, not because I know them so well... HUNTLEY: I guess that&#039 ; s the leading black architects in the city. Is there anything else that you would like to include in this before we conclude? We&#039 ; ve covered a lot of material from Coosa County to Fairfield to Birmingham. THOMAS: Tell you what, I hope I haven&#039 ; t talked too much. HUNTLEY: No, you have not. THOMAS: I always like to let the interviewer ask the questions. I don&#039 ; t know of anything. I&#039 ; ll tell you one thing I&#039 ; ll like to see given more consideration in this town. More administrative positions for women, you see. THOMAS: You know I served on the Birmingham Regional Health Systems Agency. That&#039 ; s an organization that approved all federal funds to the various hospitals here. I noticed in that, it was my fight always with them. They had 22 members on that board and most of them were doctors and that was wrong in the first place. You know each doctor was going to be for his hospital. You didn&#039 ; t have any women in too many worthwhile positions. There was one other black lady on that thing. She was an instructor in nursing. She told me, she said, you know you can&#039 ; t hardly get your black nurses and things to want to participate. I said, well, they better if they ever want to get any leadership. Anyway, I served there four years. That was interesting. They didn&#039 ; t include too many women. HUNTLEY: That should be really looked at very closely. THOMAS: Closely, yes. Most big cities now they aren&#039 ; t missing out on the women too much. You&#039 ; ve got to earn that. You don&#039 ; t push without that. You get a lot of criticism if you do in any size city. I noticed in New York the other day, the mayor of New York, I like him. He was appointing some woman to something and he was laughing. He said, if I want to stay he... HUNTLEY: He knew he had to do it. I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule and come and sit and talk with me. THOMAS: Thank goodness I didn&#039 ; t have a schedule today. HUNTLEY: Yes, I agree. THOMAS: I was just hoping that I would be feeling well enough to come up here. HUNTLEY: You&#039 ; re looking good and I&#039 ; m glad that you were feeling good today. I certainly appreciate it. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=LThomas1998.xml LThomas1998.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Louphenia Thomas Description An account of the resource Louphenia Thomas discusses her experience being the first black woman in the Alabama Legislature and the progression of politics after her term. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19980617T Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Dixon, Joe Alabama and Tennessee Coal and Iron Company Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1998-06-17 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/b85e71e5deb69fcabf7ac3f6c7cfa0c5.jpg ee10c0af17ff88e4bdd541e28320bc60 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mamie Brown Mason OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=MBMason1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Freedom Choir OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 June 2, 1995 Mamie Brown Mason Interviewed on June 2, 1995 19950602M 0:41:01 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department JJ Newberry's (Birmingham, Ala.) Freedom Choir Mamie Brown Mason Horace Huntley Video 1:|2(10)|29(13)|51(5)|87(1)|104(14)|122(12)|145(13)|167(12)|177(12)|188(4)|221(3)|236(15)|260(2)|274(9)|299(12)|323(6)|341(4)|360(14)|372(5)|390(7)|406(2)|422(6)|449(3)|459(15)|500(16)|512(14)|530(6)|549(17)|561(11)|581(12)|600(13)|621(11)|635(7)|653(2)|664(18)|676(5)|689(3)|698(13)|710(9)|724(10) 0 https://youtu.be/imGQ8qAkK0M YouTube video English 51 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mamie Brown Mason for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 2, 1995. Introduction to Mamie Brown Mason 33.4810, -86.9089 17 Miles College 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org BCRI Homepage 72 Family Background I just want to start by asking some general kinds of questions about your family. Tell me about your parents. Were your parents from Birmingham or where were they from? Mamie Brown Mason discusses what it was like growing up on a farm with 11 siblings in Orrville, Alabama. African American--Agriculture ; Family Birmingham (Ala.) ; Dallas County (Ala.) ; Orrville (Ala.) ; Pleasant Hill (Ala.) ; Selma (Ala.) 224 Community Background How would you describe the community that you grew up in? Mamie Brown Mason talks about how the community helped her throughout school and working on the farm growing up. African Americans--Agriculture ; Community education ; Sharecroppers Orrville (Ala.) 309 Participating in Recreation Tell me a little then about the recreation that you all participated in. What kinds of things did you do to keep yourselves entertained? Mamie Brown Mason discusses how they grew up playing games in her community and how her father would participate in them as well. Ball games ; Horseshoes ; Organized games 348 Relationship to Law Enforcement What was the community's relationship to the law enforcement agencies in that area? Do you ever remember anything happening as far as -- Mamie Brown Mason explains the relationship of the police by telling a story of a black boy who was taken to jail for whistling at a white girl. African Americans--Segregation ; Racial Discrimination--Police Till, Emmett, 1941-1955 404 Early Education How would you describe your elementary school? What school did you attend? Mamie Brown Mason talks about getting her early education from her community church and her local high school, along with experiencing racial discrimination from the white school age children. Community education ; High School Reunion--New York ; Prom ; Race discrimination Birmingham (Ala.) ; Keith High School (Orrville, Ala.) ; Providence Baptist Church (Orrville, Ala.) 662 Attending Booker T. Washington Business School That should be big fun then. After you finished Keith High School, what did you do? Mamie Brown Mason talks about working and going to school at Booker T. Washington Business college. African Americans--Marriage A. G. Gaston ; Booker T. Washington Business College (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Minnie L. Garden Gaston 766 Working With Booker T. Washington Insurance Company And what did you go to school for? What were you being trained for at Booker T. Washington? Mamie Brown Mason talks about racial tension at work and working for the Booker T. Washington Insurance Company in Birmingham, Ala. Accounting ; Business administration ; Workplace--Racial Segregation--Wrongful Termination Booker T. Washington Insurance Company (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Simon and Mogliner (Birmingham, Ala.) 849 Starting Work with the Movement When did you get involved in the Movement? Mamie Brown Mason talks about how she helped get people registered to vote with the Alabama Christian Movement. Voter registration Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 933 Registering to Vote When did you become a qualified voter, a registered voter? Mamie Brown Mason explains how she was taught how to take the poll test at her church. Police Officers ; Testing ; Voter Registration 46th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 987 Participating in The Movement Right. I've interviewed him and he told me about that. Tell me, when you got involved in the Movement, what role did you play? Mamie Brown Mason talks about how she contributed to the movement by being part of the Freedom Choir. Church Choir ; Mass Meetings Birmingham Civil Rights Institute ; Freedom Choir ; Highlander Folk School (Monteagle, Tenn.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1104 Attending the Mass Meetings I have heard a lot about the mass meetings and how they developed and all. Tell me, how would you describe the typical mass meeting? Mamie Brown Mason discusses how amazing the mass meetings were and how they were like church revivals. Church Choirs ; Church Revival Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights 1211 Participating in Demonstrations Were you involved in any of the demonstrations? Mamie Brown Mason talks about Dr. King instructing them before the protest and helping them out with food. Arrested ; Food 16th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Miles College 1345 Being Arrested And what were the circumstances of your arrest? Mamie Brown Mason talks about being arrested for sitting in at the lunch counter of JJ Newberry's. African Americans--Segregation ; Jail ; Prayer meetings ; Sit-Ins JJ Newberry's (Birmingham, Ala.) 1517 Spending 5 Days in Jail So what did you do during the day for five days that you were there? Mamie Brown Mason talks about how being in jail contributed to her winning a contest to attend the Insurance Convention in Illinois. African Americans--Segregation ; Contest ; Jail ; Laundry Chicago (Illinois)--Insurance Convention ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Miles College 1781 Family Reaction to Movement How did other members of your family react to your participation in the Movement? Mamie Brown Mason talks about the support she received from her family, her community, and her employer while being in the Movement. Churches ; Insurance 46th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Gaston, Arthur George (1892-1996) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; The Civil Rights Movement--Family Support 1899 Benefits From The Movement What benefits did you, your family and community realize as a result of the Movement? Mamie Brown Mason talks about how educational and job opportunities opened up from participating in the Movement. Opportunities--Work--Education ; Support 1939 Traveling With the Choir Tell me just a little bit about how the choir would go from place to place. Did you ever go outside of Birmingham to give concerts? Mamie Brown Mason talks about how the choir and the mass meetings went hand in hand with each other. Traveling Church Choir Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement--Donations 2049 Assessing the Movement In just in closing, how would you assess the Movement, the Birmingham Movement? Was it a success? Mamie Brown Mason discusses how back during the movement it didn't matter how much money you had, everyone worked together for the greater of the cause. African Americans--Segregation ; Classicism in American culture Birmingham (Ala.) ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Civil Rights Movement ; Gaston, Arthur George (1892-1996) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 2238 Marching to the Birmingham Jail If I ask you to share with us your most vivid memory from the Movement during those Movement days, what would that be? Mamie Brown Mason discusses how her most vivid memory was marching to the Birmingham Jail. Fire Hoses ; Group Prayer ; Jail ; Marching ; Prayer Meeting ; Water Hoses Birmingham (Ala.). Fire Department ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.)--Army Tank ; Charles Billups 2348 Encouraging the Future Generations to Vote Well, is there anything else you would like to add that we have not dealt with? Mamie Brown Mason encourages more people to exercise their right to vote. United States. Voting Rights Act of 1965 ; Voter registration 2422 Conclusion of Interview I certainly appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to come down and sit with us today. And we are hopeful that we will get copies of this to you in the very near future. Conclusion of interview with Mamie Brown Mason. Oral History Mamie Brown Mason discusses being arrested for sitting in at JJ Newberry's, working in voter registration and singing in the Freedom Choir. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mamie Brown Mason for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 2, 1995. Thank you Ms. Mason for taking time out of your schedule to come and sit with us today. MASON: It&#039 ; s my pleasure. HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking some general kinds of questions about your family. Tell me about your parents. Were your parents from Birmingham or where were they from? MASON: No. They were born and raised in Dallas County, Selma, Alabama. Maybe some people know it by Pleasant Hill back in that area. HUNTLEY: Pleasant Hill, Alabama? MASON: Yes. On a farm. HUNTLEY: Well, were you born in Birmingham? MASON: No. HUNTLEY: Where were you born? MASON: I was also born there. MASON: And we moved to Orrville when I was about nine years old. So basically I grew up in Orrville. It&#039 ; s still Dallas County, but in a different section. HUNTLEY: Was Orrville a larger place? MASON: It was larger, yes. HUNTLEY: And so you were moving from the rural to the -- MASON: Another section of the rural. HUNTLEY: Another section of the rural, not quite urban yet. How many brothers and sisters did you have and where did you fit in there? MASON: Well, I am the seventh child. There were actually 12 born. One sister passed away at about six weeks old, but 11 of us lived to get grown. Six girls and five boys. HUNTLEY: Tell me just a little about your parents. What about their education? Your mother and your father. MASON: Well, my father got very little education. There was a large family of them. There were 14 in his family, so he didn&#039 ; t get a chance to go to school very much. My mother was very well educated. In fact, she helped to teach us all through high school. So, I don&#039 ; t know how far she went in school, but she was able to help us with our math and what not while we were going to high school. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s remarkable because -- MASON: Yes, she was a smart lady. HUNTLEY: Yes. After my kids got to high school I couldn&#039 ; t help them with math any more, so she must have been pretty smart. MASON: Yes, she was. HUNTLEY: What about her occupation? Did she work outside of the home? MASON: Well, on the farm, sometimes. HUNTLEY: But this was just in the family business? MASON: Right. HUNTLEY: And your father, what did he do? MASON: A farmer, he was a farmer, yes. HUNTLEY: Did the children work on the farm as well? MASON: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: How would you describe the community that you grew up in? MASON: In Orrville? HUNTLEY: In Orrville. MASON: Well, there was some people in that community that was pretty well educated. And we got a lot of help from most of the adults in the community, including the church and the school. HUNTLEY: What kind of help? MASON: Well, many of our teachers we would see at church. And even if we were just speaking to them they would correct us with our English and they were just very caring teachers, very caring. HUNTLEY: So you were always learning when you were around those adults? MASON: Yes. Always. HUNTLEY: Were most of the people that lived in your area, were they farmers? MASON: Oh, yes. Most of them were farmers. But most of them were sharecroppers. Now my father and his brother were buying their own home and my uncle, my father&#039 ; s brother had ten children and their were 11 of us and, you know, we did a lot of playing together. HUNTLEY: So you had a community just with family? MASON: Yes. It was enough to make a school. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little then about the recreation that you all participated in. What kinds of things did you do to keep yourselves entertained? MASON: Well, we created our own fun. We had enough to have a ball team or whatever we wanted to do. Pitch horseshoes or do things. Because we didn&#039 ; t have a TV and we didn&#039 ; t have a radio even, so my father, many times, organized the games that we were playing because he liked to play also. He was a strict father, but he still like to play with us. But we knew when it was time to play and when he really meant business. HUNTLEY: What was the community&#039 ; s relationship to the law enforcement agencies in that area? Do you ever remember anything happening as far as -- MASON: Oh, I can recall one incident when I was very small. A young man who went to school with us who, I think he whistled at a White girl and he had to do time for that. Which we thought was kind of bad, but there was nothing we could do about it. HUNTLEY: How much time did he do for that? MASON: I think he did a year and a day. HUNTLEY: Is that right? MASON: For just whistling at a White girl. HUNTLEY: You know Emmett Till was supposedly whistling at a White girl, also. MASON: Oh, yes. That brought that back very vividly when that happened, yeah, what happened to him. HUNTLEY: How would you describe your elementary school? What school did you attend? MASON: I attended Providence school. We were members of Providence Baptist Church and there was this little hall on the ground. And at first there were the two rooms and then our parents got together. All the parents in the neighborhood got together and added another room because it was too small. So when I left there, there were three rooms with three teachers. HUNTLEY: And then you went on to high school? MASON: I went to Keith High School. HUNTLEY: Keith High School? Is that in Orrville? MASON: In Orrville, yes. Where I had to walk six miles to school and six miles back. HUNTLEY: You mean you walked once a week and you stayed there? MASON: No. Everyday I walked six miles to school. And when school was out I walked back home six miles. We had no school buses so that is how we had to go to school. HUNTLEY: Well, were you walking alone or were there others? MASON: A group of us were walking and the White children had school buses and they would pass by and throw out and hit us, you know, as we were walking. So, I remember an incident where we were ready for them with their plums and we threw back on the school bus. The next day the principal had us, Mr. Hatcher was the principal at that time, he had us in and told us that the bus driver told him that we were throwing on the bus and so we told him what happened. He said, &quot ; Well, you still cannot do that. Do not throw on the bus.&quot ; We had a rough way to go. Really rough way to go, but we were determined to go to school anyway we did. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the time that you spent at Keith High School in terms of your teachers, the principal, the kinds of things that you and your friends would do? What stands out most in your mind about Keith? MASON: You know we are getting ready to have our school reunion. On the 29th of June we will be going to New York to have a reunion of the entire school. But the thing that stands out mostly was the caring of the teachers. We had teachers that cared about all students, you know. And the thing that really stands out with me is the fact that I was a very sheltered person. My parents sheltered us, me anyway. And I was not going to be going to my prom and the principal&#039 ; s wife was also a teacher. Mrs. Hatcher found out that I was not going to go and she wrote my mother a letter and said, &quot ; Let her stay with me and attend the prom.&quot ; And that&#039 ; s what I did. I spent the night with them, attended the prom and went back home with them. HUNTLEY: I assume this was closer to where the prom was being held? MASON: It was held at the school. HUNTLEY: So you would have to get from your place? MASON: Right. And I didn&#039 ; t have any way to get there and my mother was not going to let me go with my boyfriend, it was just that simple. HUNTLEY: But you did get a chance to go to the prom? MASON: I got a chance to go to the prom by spending the night with the principal and his wife and their children. HUNTLEY: I see. So you are having a reunion of Keith High School in New York? MASON: In New York. HUNTLEY: Why New York? MASON: Well, there are people in New York who attended that school and they asked to have it there. We have it every two years. I think the next year we are scheduled to have it in Selma. HUNTLEY: Okay. MASON: The next two years. HUNTLEY: So everybody in Orrville will be going to New York City? MASON: Maybe not everybody, but we have a chapter here in Birmingham and most of us are going to New York. HUNTLEY: That should be big fun then. After you finished Keith High School, what did you do? MASON: I came to Birmingham and attended Booker T. Washington Business College. HUNTLEY: And you finished Booker T. Washington and then what? MASON: Well, I got married in &#039 ; 51 and so I went to school. I then had to quit going to school during the day and when Mrs. Gaston heard that I was not able to go to school, she says, &quot ; Oh, no. You must go. You must continue.&quot ; So I started going at night. I finished Keith High School in 1954. I mean, I&#039 ; m sorry, I finished Booker T. Washington Business College in 1954. HUNTLEY: So were you simply going to school. You were not working at that time? MASON: She gave me work to do in the office. HUNTLEY: I see. MASON: Because I was not able to go money wise. And she gave me -- Mrs. Gaston is a great person. I just wish I could be able to tell her that. HUNTLEY: Well, you can. She may even watch this. MASON: I hope so. There were many people that she helped who was not able to go to school and she let them go anyway. HUNTLEY: So in 1954 when you finished at Booker T. Washington, what was your next step? MASON: Well, I was not able to get a job, you know, using the skills that I learned in school. HUNTLEY: And what did you go to school for? What were you being trained for at Booker T. Washington? MASON: Business Administration. I was not able to use it at all. Accounting and business administration. So I worked as a maid. I worked at a plant also. I worked at Simon &amp ; Mogilner. Yes, that was a place where I had a lot of problems. HUNTLEY: What kind of problems did you have? MASON: Oh, it was the most racially segregated place and I had a little problem with a White person there and I was fired, of course. HUNTLEY: What was the problem? MASON: Well, I was in line to clock in and this girl shoved me, you know, and of course, all I did was report it. I didn&#039 ; t even hit her which I thought about doing, but I didn&#039 ; t. I reported it and of course, I was fired for reporting it, I guess. But then I got a job writing insurance at Booker T. Washington Insurance Company. And that&#039 ; s what I was doing during most of the time of the Movement. I was writing insurance with Booker T. Washington. HUNTLEY: I see. So you were rather independent as well? MASON: Yes. Yes. HUNTLEY: When did you get involved in the Movement? MASON: From the beginning almost. In the early 50s. Probably about &#039 ; 57 or &#039 ; 58, something like that. HUNTLEY: The NAACP was outlawed from operating in the state in 1956. MASON: Right. HUNTLEY: And then Shuttlesworth and a number of other ministers got together to establish the Alabama Christian Movement. Were you involved that early in those initial stages? MASON: Not the very initial stages, but I started attending shortly after that. HUNTLEY: Why did you get involved? MASON: Well, I just saw the need to do something to help whatever I thought that I could do. I got involved in voter registration for one thing. We set up a voter registration school at our church, at the 46th Street Baptist Church. On a Wednesday night I was teaching people to fill out those applications they would need and other people, members of our church would teach them how to fill out those long drawn out applications for becoming registered voters and telling them how he had to pay the poll tax, you know, you had to pay a dollar and a half for poll tax in order to become qualified to vote. HUNTLEY: When did you become a qualified voter, a registered voter? MASON: Just before I started helping them. Probably &#039 ; 57 or &#039 ; 58, something like that. HUNTLEY: Did you pass the first time that you went in? MASON: Yes. HUNTLEY: And had you prepared for the test? MASON: I had prepared. I had been taught and so I was prepared for it. HUNTLEY: So after you were taught then you decided to do the same with the other people? MASON: Do the same and started helping other people. HUNTLEY: And were you taught there at 46th Street Baptist? MASON: I was taught by a person who was going to another church at that time. They were going to New Bethel Baptist Church, a Mr. George Johnson who encouraged me and who taught me and I think he was one of the first people who applied for a policeman here in this city. I think you may know something about him, I don&#039 ; t know. HUNTLEY: Yes. MASON: He&#039 ; s a minister now. HUNTLEY: Right. I&#039 ; ve interviewed him and he told me about that. Tell me, when you got involved in the Movement, what role did you play? MASON: Well, at first I was just attending the mass meetings all the time. And our church choir and Rev. Shuttlesworth church choir decided to have fellowship and, we would sing at his church on one third Sunday and they would come to us the next third Sunday and Rev. Shuttlesworth asked me and Mr. Gay to organize a choir. We knew a lot of singers and we did a lot of singing over the city and we knew a lot of singers and we started getting people together to organize a choir for the Movement. HUNTLEY: So you and Mr. Nims Gay? MASON: Right. HUNTLEY: Okay. So that was the initiation of the Freedom Choir? MASON: Yes. Exactly. HUNTLEY: Well, you wrote some of the songs, right? MASON: Well, it was a workshop that they had in Tennessee. In Highlander Folk School that I attended where we were changing songs to freedom words. And this song that you may hear some time at the Civil Rights Institute, &quot ; I&#039 ; m On My Way to Freedom Land,&quot ; I wrote the words to that. The tune is from a gospel song that we were singing in our choir. I guess you would call it a spiritual, &quot ; I&#039 ; m On my way to Canaan Land.&quot ; So I changed those words from &quot ; Canaan Land&quot ; to &quot ; Freedom Land&quot ; and we sang that song at the mass meeting. And of course, Rev. Gardner liked that song and we had to sing it every night. Every time we had a mass meeting, we had to sing that song for Rev. Gardner. HUNTLEY: I have heard a lot about the mass meetings and how they developed and all. Tell me, how would you describe the typical mass meeting? MASON: Well, in one word I can say, &quot ; Awesome.&quot ; It was really awesome. They had been filming those at that time, because I think it would be almost unbelievable to some of the young people now. We had a group of people who were devotion people who started the devotion and they had it so spiritual. It was so hot there. They could really moan those moans, sing those hymns and pray those prayers like you never heard before. It was very, very good. HUNTLEY: It sounds like a revival. MASON: That&#039 ; s right. Exactly. Like a revival. And that was anytime we had a meeting. We even, organized and had ushers. HUNTLEY: Now, there were meetings held all over the city in various churches. MASON: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you all went from different churches every Monday night? MASON: Right. To different communities. And the thing about it we didn&#039 ; t have automobiles. But someone would call us. Sometimes more than one person would say, &quot ; Do you have a way to the meeting tonight?&quot ; And they would come and get us and take us. Wouldn&#039 ; t take a penny. HUNTLEY: So you always had transportation? MASON: We always had a way. We knew someone was going to take us. HUNTLEY: Were you involved in any of the demonstrations? MASON: Yes. The very first day of the demonstration I was involved. In April of 1963. The night before then, Dr. King had met with us and he prayed with us and talked to us about what to expect and then he ran his hand in his pocket and said, &quot ; I have so much money here. You are not going to be able to eat that food in the jail.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; This is all I have, I&#039 ; m going to give it to you.&quot ; And he asked me if I had any money, I said, &quot ; Yeah, I have a little.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; Well, put this with your money, so that the ladies, all of you --&quot ; And I went to some of the Miles College students at that time. And so we would get the man, the trustee to go to the store and get us milk and cheese and crackers and something that we could eat. HUNTLEY: So you did not eat the food? MASON: I couldn&#039 ; t eat it. I couldn&#039 ; t eat it. The only food that was good was the breakfast food. They had that strict lean white meat and biscuits and that was good. But they had breakfast so early. I ate that first breakfast because they didn&#039 ; t feed me the first day. They didn&#039 ; t even offer us any food. But I got up and went to have breakfast at 5:00 o&#039 ; clock that morning. All those other mornings I said, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t wake me up. I&#039 ; m tired. I want to get some rest.&quot ; I was tired from writing insurance, I needed some rest. HUNTLEY: You said Dr. King sort of instructed you all the night before you were arrested? MASON: Yes, before we were arrested. HUNTLEY: Was this at a mass meeting? MASON: This was a special meeting of those of us that he was getting ready for the kick off. HUNTLEY: And how many, approximately were there? MASON: I think there were something like about 12 of us. No more than 15 that first day. HUNTLEY: Was this at a church? MASON: Yes. That first day. HUNTLEY: Do you remember what church it was? MASON: It was at 16th Street. HUNTLEY: 16th Street? MASON: Yes. HUNTLEY: And what were the circumstances of your arrest? MASON: There was a young man and I who was trying to eat at JJ Newberry&#039 ; s down in the basement where the White folks ate. We didn&#039 ; t want to sit up there on those stools where the Black people were and all they could get were hot dogs. We were going to go in to the cafeteria style and eat. HUNTLEY: So the Blacks sat at the counter? MASON: At the counter, but they only served like hot dogs or something like that. HUNTLEY: And they only had a couple of stools? MASON: Yes. Up on the first floor. But this was like down in the basement where they had the little tables, you know, and fixed it nice for the White folks. We were going to go there but they chained us out and wouldn&#039 ; t let us eat. They wouldn&#039 ; t let us get in. So, finally they called the police and they arrested us. HUNTLEY: So, when they would not let you in, what did you do? MASON: We just stood there. We waited for them to take the chain off. We knew some White people were going to come to eat. And as soon as they lifted those chains we were going to go in. HUNTLEY: Did they ever lift the chains? MASON: After we were arrested I am sure. But no, they didn&#039 ; t. They kept them up. HUNTLEY: So you were never seated? MASON: We were never seated. We were arrested because we were trying to be seated. HUNTLEY: Was there a crowd around at the time? MASON: Oh, yes. There were White people who were angry because we were not letting them eat. Because if they let the White folks in, they would have to let us in, too. And when they were arresting us, going up the stairs, there were White people on each side, they were looking at us so fiercely, so angry and I was glad to be arrested because I thought they were really going to attack me. And we were taught that we could not fight back. Under no circumstances could we fight back. Even if we were hit, we could not hit back. HUNTLEY: How long did you remain in jail? MASON: Five days. HUNTLEY: Five days? Can you describe what it was like being in jail? MASON: Well, we had prayer meeting in jail. The regular prisoners there and some of those ladies had life sentences. HUNTLEY: Were you intermingled with the regular population? MASON: Oh, we were in there with them. We were in there with them. They respected us to the highest. And every night they would ask us to sing and pray and every night this lady would stop us. She said, &quot ; They got to get up and go to work tomorrow.&quot ; And they would tell this warden, &quot ; We asked them, we want to hear them.&quot ; She still would not let us sing, so we were obedient. HUNTLEY: So what did you do during the day for five days that you were there? MASON: I worked in the laundry two days. They called our names alphabetically and my name was Brown at that time and Brown and Bell. There was a Bell there who was related to the Bell who was with Miles College. I believe she was a granddaughter of the president of Miles College at that time, but she was also there in jail. She and I worked in the laundry. And the first time we went out just before lunch, the lady that was over us, this was on that Friday, the lady that was over us, she said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m not going to give you anything hard.&quot ; The half of day we didn&#039 ; t even work. We didn&#039 ; t do anything. She told us, &quot ; Sit down.&quot ; We sat and so when we were going back, she said a White man came to her and talked to her. She came to us, she called us aside, she said, &quot ; You see that White man talking to us?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Yes.&quot ; She said, &quot ; He was asking questions. He wanted to know if you were obedient and I told him yes.&quot ; And she said, &quot ; You were. You did exactly as I asked you to do. I told you to sit down.&quot ; She said, &quot ; But, you know, you have snitches here in jail, so I am going to have to give you some work to do.&quot ; I said, &quot ; That&#039 ; s no problem, I&#039 ; m used to working.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Was this a White woman or Black woman? MASON: No. This was a Black woman. The Black woman that was over the laundry. HUNTLEY: Sort of a trustee like? MASON: So, we were segregated in jail. We didn&#039 ; t have anything to do with the White women in jail. They were in their separate area. We were in our separate area. So, she said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to have to give you something to do.&quot ; So she had us to guide the sheets through the machine. I&#039 ; m on one end and the other girl on the other. Very easy. Nothing. No problem. HUNTLEY: Now, was this woman a trustee? Was she an inmate? MASON: Yes. I think she&#039 ; s one of those, she said her time was going to be coming up soon for parole and she did not want to do anything to jeopardize that so she asked us to cooperate with her. And, of course, we were going to anyway. HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate in the demonstrations? MASON: Yes. I had one sister who did. Hattie Felder. HUNTLEY: Did she go to jail as well? MASON: Yes, she did. And how long did she remain in jail? MASON: I don&#039 ; t know. She was there longer than I was because she had to go back and when I went in -- and we had our case, Dr. King was there -- our hearing and he asked all of us who could to remain for five days and those who couldn&#039 ; t, he was getting them out the next day. HUNTLEY: How did that impact upon your livelihood being in jail five days? MASON: Oh, it didn&#039 ; t affect me at all. Not one way or the other. At that time my whole life was really the Movement. My church and the Movement that was about it. And my job, of course. And during the time I was in jail, there was a supervisor who was working on my job. He was working with me. So before I went to jail I wrote down all instructions to tell him what to do. The people to go to see and all of that so he could take care of business. And while I was in jail there was a contest going on on my job and when I got out of jail there were people calling me off the street to come and write some insurance because they saw me getting in the paddy wagon on TV and they were dropping insurance with the White people and they wanted me to be their agent. And I won a contest. HUNTLEY: Is that right? As a result of going to jail?MASON: As a result of my going to jail. I went to Chicago to the insurance convention that year. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s amazing. MASON: Yes. HUNTLEY: So you were actually enhanced by going? MASON: Without even trying. HUNTLEY: How did other members of your family react to your participation in the Movement? MASON: Well, everyone in my family was in accord with what we were doing. Some of them could not take part because some of them had jobs that, you know, they probably would have lost their jobs. And, of course, my mother was ill at that time and she urged us on. She said, &quot ; If I wasn&#039 ; t sick, I&#039 ; d be there with you.&quot ; So they thought it was a great thing to do something to try to help the race. HUNTLEY: So your family was very supportive? MASON: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: You were writing insurance? MASON: Yes. HUNTLEY: What about your employer? MASON: Well, I think he had no other choice but to accept what I was doing. And I am speaking of Dr. Gaston. Because Rev. Shuttlesworth and those that talked with him and I think he knew that he had to go along with it whether he did or not. HUNTLEY: So you were in fact supported by the Movement and your employer, Dr. Gaston knew that you really didn&#039 ; t really receive any negatives from him? MASON: No. Not from him. HUNTLEY: Were your church and other members of your church involved? Your pastor involved in the Movement at that time? MASON: That pastor, at that time I was a member of the 46th Street Baptist Church. That pastor did not become actively involved as far as the demonstrations and what not but he sanctioned everything that we did. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. And I am aware that that was a rather small church so it couldn&#039 ; t accommodate the meetings that they had? MASON: Right. Right. HUNTLEY: What benefits did you, your family and community realize as a result of the Movement? MASON: Well, I think we benefitted by doors being opened up for jobs and educational benefits and what not. It&#039 ; s, to me a self-esteem thing also. To let you know that you are somebody no matter what people may think of you and the color of your skin has nothing to do with the content of your brain. That&#039 ; s one of the things. HUNTLEY: Tell me just a little bit about how the choir would go from place to place. Did you ever go outside of Birmingham to give concerts? MASON: Oh, yes. And we gave a lot of concerts in the city. Many Sunday nights we were doing concerts at different churches as a fund raiser for them and for the Movement. And the money that we received, sometimes the money may be, was split between the church and the choir. The choir would report that money to the Movement. We reported thousands of dollars to the Movement. HUNTLEY: Why was the choir so important? MASON: If you take a church now, I think the musical staff, the choir is an important function of the church. So it was the same way with the Movement. There were people who came to church to hear the choir, who came to the mass meeting, who followed the mass meetings around from church to church to hear the choir and to hear different people sing. HUNTLEY: So, in effect, the Movement then was the church and the choir provided the music for that particular church? MASON: Yes. Exactly. I have heard people say some Sundays they would miss going to their church but they would not miss going to the mass meeting on Monday nights. HUNTLEY: The mass meeting was always packed? MASON: Oh, yes. Always packed. HUNTLEY: And you had people from all over the city? MASON: All over the city. Different churches, different denominations, you know. HUNTLEY: In just in closing, how would you assess the Movement, the Birmingham Movement? Was it a success? MASON: Yes. I think it was successful. We had leaders then that we could look up to. We had leaders that we believed were trying to do something to help us. When I came back here from Los Angeles. I came back to Birmingham from Los Angeles in September of 1992 and I was a little shocked. Because to me, something was wrong. I do not see the togetherness that we had in the 60s and it&#039 ; s sad to me. Very sad. Because people were together regardless of whether they were low class, middle class, high class, everybody was together. HUNTLEY: Why do you think there&#039 ; s a difference now than then? MASON: I don&#039 ; t know. I think we need a leader. We need a leader that can get us all together. We had a particular leader hear in Birmingham in Rev. Shuttlesworth who got the Movement started and who kept it going and even when he went to Cincinnati, it still continued to go on. And, of course, Dr. King was one of those rare kind of people who was well educated but who knew how to not look down on the lowest of people. To him, he recognized people as people, no matter what their status was in life. This is what we need. Someone who can recognize people as people. I remember him going to the pool hall and shooting pool with these people, you know, and down on 4th Avenue with people there. And know he could go anyplace. Nowhere was too low for him to go. In fact, to me he lived the kind of life like Jesus did. You know, Jesus Christ was the kind of person who did not look down on people. HUNTLEY: Do you think that these, that that togetherness could have been based upon the premise of everything being segregated so it put all of those different economic strata in the same pot? It did not matter how much money you had, all were the same? MASON: Right. Dr. Gaston was a millionaire but he still could not go to these places, you know that were segregated. No matter how much money he had, he couldn&#039 ; t go. And there was nothing he could do about going to these places until we, &quot ; little people&quot ; got on the streets and broke it down. We, who had no money. HUNTLEY: If I ask you to share with us your most vivid memory from the Movement during those Movement days, what would that be? MASON: My mind goes to now a time when we were at New Pilgrim Baptist Church on 6th Avenue South and marching to the jail. The person who was heading that march was Rev. Charles Billups who is now deceased. And there was this tank that Bull Conner was in and he tried to get the firemen to turn the hose on us. This fireman refused to turn the hose on us and he told him, &quot ; You turn it on yourself. I am not going to do that.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; All these good people wanted to do is to march and pray.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Let the good Reverend pray.&quot ; And we did. That was a time that we all rejoiced in seeing this fireman not do what Bull Conner was trying to demand him to do. He would not. I guess he said if I lose my job, that&#039 ; s fine. These people, all they want to do is march to the jail and kneel and pray. And he let us do that without turning the water on us. HUNTLEY: That was obviously not the norm for the Birmingham Fire Department? MASON: That&#039 ; s right. That was not. But Bull Conner had himself protected where nobody could get to him. He had the big tank all around him. You couldn&#039 ; t get to him at all. HUNTLEY: Well, is there anything else you would like to add that we have not dealt with? MASON: Yes, my main thing I would like to add is something about voter registration because that was something that was my pet peeve at that time. And now I think that people have gotten very slack about voting about even becoming qualified voters and you talk to young people when they are 18 and try to encourage them to become voters and they think that it is not going to do any good, but it will. Even though we have people who are qualified voters, who refuse to go to the polls and I think it&#039 ; s awful. Because we have people who lost their lives who were trying to become qualified voters. Not only Black people, white people also, who lost their lives. And I think it means more, should mean more to everyone to exercise the voting right. It is not being exercised and it really bothers me that that is not being exercised. HUNTLEY: I certainly appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to come down and sit with us today. And we are hopeful that we will get copies of this to you in the very near future. MASON: Well, thank you so much for inviting me. HUNTLEY: Thank you again. MASON: All right. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=MBMason1995.xml MBMason1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mamie Brown Mason Description An account of the resource Mamie Brown Mason discusses being arrested for sitting in at JJ Newberry's, working in voter registration and singing in the Freedom Choir. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950602M Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department JJ Newberry's (Birmingham, Ala.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-06-02 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video