3 20 102 https://bcriohp.org/files/original/7e6ff5915c240f835c42a2cc375736d3.jpg d21887eeb2729326dce57b9b6c423323 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rev. Lamar Weaver OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=LWeaver1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Voter registration--United States OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 March 16, 1995 Rev. Lamar Weaver Interviewed on March 16, 1995 19950316W 0:56:40 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham 16th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Union Terminal Station (Birmingham, Ala.) Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Bull Connor--Commissioner of Public Safety--Birmingham, Ala. Voter registration--United States Rev. Lamar Weaver Horace Huntley Video 1:|14(4)|25(15)|44(13)|60(2)|79(5)|90(6)|101(1)|119(2)|136(11)|161(6)|172(1)|187(9)|201(4)|215(2)|233(15)|245(8)|262(6)|286(5)|297(7)|311(18)|328(12)|351(12)|360(12)|374(14)|384(10)|394(4)|407(9)|420(3)|439(9)|452(11)|464(6)|484(7)|495(6)|508(3)|522(4)|538(4)|564(12)|579(12)|590(14)|602(24)|614(16)|643(6)|662(6)|674(2)|685(15)|692(9)|711(7)|722(12)|730(6)|744(4)|757(10)|769(14)|783(8)|794(12) 0 https://youtu.be/gz9HRk9G-FE YouTube video English 66 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Rev. Lamar Weaver for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley, at Miles College. Today is March 16, 1995 and Rev. Weaver, I want to thank you for driving all the way from Atlanta this morning to come and sit and talk with us about your experiences here in Birmingham. 33.4810, -86.9089, 17 Miles College 33.5161, -86.8145 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute www.bcri.org BCRI Homepage 97 Family Background Thank you again. I'd just like to start and get a little background. Where are you originally from...your birthplace? Reverand Lamar Weaver talks about where he was born and his parents divorce. Divorce ; Elementary School ; Family Separation Arab (Ala.) ; Atlanta (Ga.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Cassville (Ga.) ; Cullman (Ala.) ; Holly Pond (Ala.) ; Kelly Ingram Park (Birmingham, Ala.) 206 Family Background-Mother's Side And divorced. What kind of work did your mother do? Reverend Lamar Weaver talks about his moms profession. Gangs--United States ; Nurse Birmingham (Ala.) ; Boys' Club ; Cartersville (Ga.) ; Hillman Hospital 274 Community Background The community that you lived in was really on the edge of downtown. How would you describe that community? Reverend Lamar Weaver discusses growing up in the communities in Birmingham, about being taught to be colorblind and also being involved with gangs. Blacks--United States ; Italians--United States ; Jews--United States ; Neighborhoods-multicultural ; Whites--United States 16th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Boys' Club ; Colorblind ; Ensley High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Fairfield (Ala.) ; Gang members ; Good Will Boys Club ; Juvenile delinquents ; Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 751 Transformation of Kelly Ingram Park You lived on the periphery of Kelly Ingram Park? Reverend Lamar Weaver explains how Kelly Ingram park was a playground for the kids but also a place for gangs to come meet up. Black Communities ; Blacks--United States ; Fights ; Gangs--United States ; Neighborhoods ; Whites--United States 16th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; 1930's ; 1940's ; A. G. Gaston Funeral Home (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Boys' Club ; Kelly Ingram Park (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Masonic Temple (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Mecca Hotel (Birmingham, Ala.) 915 Graduation from High School Cassville, Georgia In 1954 when Brown v. Board of Education decision was made by the Supreme Court, what were you doing at that time? Reverend Lamar Weaver explains how his life changed in 1949, how the Civil Rights Movement was something he was suppose to do. Divine Intervention ; Life change events A. G. Gaston Funeral Home (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Brown vs. Board of Education of Topeka ; Cassville (Ga.) ; Civil rights movement ; Hillman Hospital ; Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; SouthEastern Bible College (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Tennessee Coal, Iron, and Railroad Company 1075 Work at Tennessee Coal, Iron, and Railroad Company Okay, so what did you do then right after finishing at Cassville? Reverend Lamar Weaver discusses coming back to pick up activities after high school such as working as an ambulance driver at TCI. Ambulance drivers ; Metallurgist ; Part-time employment Birmingham (Ala.) ; Cassville (Ga.) ; Gadsden (Ala.) ; Rome (Ga.) ; Tennessee Coal, Iron, and Railroad Company 1131 Protest at Union Terminal Station With Fred Shuttlesworth Well, when I had become involved in the Civil Rights Movement, I had also become involved in politics and I had run for city office and I had gone with two ministers from Southeastern Bible College and registered people to vote in several states, and and Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth who I had got to know, had told me that he was going to sit in a White waiting room at the terminal station, the Union Terminal Station. Reverend Lamar Weaver talks about going to sit with Fred Shuttlesworth at the Union Terminal Station in Birmingham, Alabama and how the mob came after him. Aggression and violence ; Black Funeral Directors ; Blacks--Segregation ; Hit-and-run drivers ; Mobs ; Politics ; Protestors ; The Media ; Train Ticket ; Voter registration--United States ; Whites--United States--Attitudes ABC News ; Civil rights movement ; KKK-A ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Southeastern Bible College (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Tennessee Coal, Iron, and Railroad Company ; The Ku Klux Klan ; Union Terminal Station (Birmingham, Ala.) 1361 Start of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Fred Shuttlesworth starts the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights in 1956. Reverend Lamar Weaver talked about being an early member of ACMHR and running in an election against Bull Connor. American political parties and elections ; Blacks in Government (U.S.) ; Blacks--United States ; Voter registration ; Whites--United States--Attitudes 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; A. G. Gaston's Funeral Home ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Bull Connor--Commissioner of Public Safety--Birmingham, Ala. ; Civil rights movement ; Johns, Vernon, 1892-1965 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1629 The Campaign to Higher Black Policemen Let me take you back just a bit, though, before we get to that point. Let me just ask you, well firstly...the first issue that was developed by the Alabama Christian Movement was the issue of the hiring of Black policemen. Your campaign, around the same time, you were campaigning on the issue of hiring Black policemen. Was there any connection? Reverend Lamar Weaver speaks about his time running against Bull Connor and campaigning for black police and firemen. Blacks--Employment--Law and legislation ; Blacks--Segregation ; Earth Day ; Firemen ; policmen ; Whites--United States--Attitudes Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Billingsley, Orzell, 1924-2001 ; Birmingham World ; Bull Connor--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham, Ala. ; Hall, Peter ; Harris, Virgil ; Jackson, Emory ; Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 1852 Reaction of Rev. Lamar Weaver's Mother to Movement What was the reaction of your mother to your involvement in the Movement? Rev. Lamar Weaver talks about his mother being supportive during his involvement in the movement. Affectionate Mother ; Arson ; Christian women ; Mobs ; Terminal Station Crestview (Fla.) ; Eglan Airforce Base (Fort Walton Beach, Fla.) ; Ku Klux Klan ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1951 Meetings with the Alabama Christian Movement You did take part in the mass...the mass meetings of the Alabama Christian Movement. Rev. Lamar Weaver discusses how during the Alabama Christian Movement Meetings they would have a lookout person because of the threats being posed against them and the movement. African American churches ; Black Churches ; Drive-by shootings ; Extreme threats ; Police Absence ; Whites--United States--Attitudes 16th Street Baptist Church (Bimringham, Ala.) ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Bill Shortridge ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Woods, Abraham, Jr., 1928-2008 2181 Bill Shortridge So, you were the exception. Tell me about Mr. Shortridge. Rev. Lamar Weaver explains the role of Bill Shortridge in being the &quot ; bag man&quot ; who bailed people out during the movement. African American churches ; Bail ; bail bondsmen ; jail ; money Bill Shortridge ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Civil rights movement ; Revelation Baptist Church (Cincinnati, Ohio) 2264 Last Days in Birmingham You joined Revelation Baptist Church? Rev. Lamar Weaver discusses his last days in Birmingham being a wanted man. Fugitive ; Funeral homes ; Hiding places ; Southerner ; Terminal Station ; White Man ; Whites--United States--Attitudes Aaron Bland ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham World ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Ebony magazine (Choreographic work : Brown) ; Emory Jackson ; Ku Klux Klan ; Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company ; Poole Brothers ; Sangster, George, 1934- ; Virgil Harris ; YMCA 2559 Arrival in Cincinnati So, when you arrived in Cincinnati, what did you do? What kind of work did you do? Rev. Lamar Weaver talks about what he did when he arrived in Cincinnati, Ohio. Black voters ; Integration ; United States. Supreme Court ; Voter registration--United States Aaron Bland ; Alabama ; Arthur Shore ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham News ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Civil rights movement ; Ebony magazine (Choreographic work : Brown) ; Florida ; Georgia ; Hurley, Ruby ; Mississippi ; NAACP Collection (Library of Congress) ; New Amsterdam News ; Sangster, George, 1934- ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Witt-Good &amp ; Kelsch Funeral Home 2939 Impact of the Birmingham Movement Okay. What impact do you think the Birmingham Movement had upon this community and the nation? Rev. Lamar Weaver talks about the major effects the movement has had on his life. Advocate ; Autobiography ; Memoir ; Personal Experience 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Arrington, Richard ; Atlanta (Ga.) ; Bessemer (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Brookwood (Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement ; Johnson, Jimmy ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Liuzzo, Viola, 1925-1965 ; March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Roosevelt, Eleanor, 1884-1962 ; Selma (Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 3243 Fred Shuttlesworth's Departure to Cincinnati That's for sure. That's an understatement. Let me just ask you one other question that relate to a person who was very instrumental in the development of the Birmingham Movement, but also had to leave Birmingham and that's Fred Shuttlesworth. And, I hear that you were instrumental in his eventually coming to Cincinnati. Can you tell me a little about that? Rev. Lamar Weaver discusses his relationship with Fred Shuttlesworth. Church ; Friendship ; Pastor Birmingham (Ala.) ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Civil rights movement ; Revelation Baptist Church (Cincinnati, Ohio) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 3353 Interview Conclusion Okay, well I want to thank you for taking your time and driving over from Atlanta this morning to come and sit and talk with us to give us your perception of what took place in Birmingham because that's a rather unique perspective that you have, being one of the few whites that were actively involved in the struggle. Again, thank you for coming. Oral History Rev. Lamar Weaver discusses getting to know Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth as he got more involved in the Movement. Weaver ran against Bull Connor on an anti-segregation platform. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Rev. Lamar Weaver for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley, at Miles College. Today is March 16, 1995 and Rev. Weaver, I want to thank you for driving all the way from Atlanta this morning to come and sit and talk with us about your experiences here in Birmingham. WEAVER: I&#039 ; m happy to be here. HUNTLEY: Thank you again. I&#039 ; d just like to start and get a little background. Where are you originally from...your birthplace? WEAVER: I was born in Cassville, Georgia. That&#039 ; s in Bartow County, Cartersville area, just above Atlanta on January 11, 1928. My mother and father were on a visit to an uncle of mine in Cassville and I was born there, at home and then we travelled back to a place where my father was working in Holly Pond, Alabama. He was a sharecropper there and worked in a sawmill. My mother and father had lived in Holly Pond, Cullman and Arab. That&#039 ; s where my father was from. My mother was from Georgia, Cassville, Georgia. HUNTLEY: How old were you, when you came to Birmingham? WEAVER: I think the first time that I came to Birmingham was...I was 8 or 9 months old, was in 1928. I remember that my mother and father weren&#039 ; t getting along too well and as I grew up in my tender years, they split, I think about when I was about six years old, because I remember, my mother enrolled me in Hendley Elementary School down on, I think 7th, 17th Street across from Kelly Ingram Park and there I spent several years in school at Hendley. HUNTLEY: 6th Avenue and 17th Street. WEAVER: Right. HUNTLEY: So, then your mother and father had separated by then? WEAVER: And divorced. HUNTLEY: And divorced. What kind of work did your mother do? WEAVER: My mother was a nurse, but she wasn&#039 ; t a licensed nurse. She was going to the Old Hillman Hospital and taking a course about that time to become a nurse, which she later did. But, it took her several years and, in the meantime, I just went to school and roamed the streets and played in the...in that 8th Avenue, 7th Avenue, 16th Street, 17th Street area. I used to walk back and forth to the old Boys Club which is up 26th Street and ran with a real bad crowd. Back in those days we had gangs and had gang fights, didn&#039 ; t have any guns, but mostly bricks. We called them brick bats. HUNTLEY: Brick bats. How much...tell me a little bit about the education of your mother? Did she, was she a high school graduate? WEAVER: She attended high school in Georgia, in Cartersville, Georgia. HUNTLEY: And, then she...she eventually then would become a nurse right here in Birmingham? WEAVER: Yes. HUNTLEY: The community that you lived in was really on the edge of downtown. How would you describe that community? WEAVER: Well, it was a poor neighborhood. There was a Jewish school nearby. It was a mixed neighborhood of.... HUNTLEY: How do you mean mixed? WEAVER: Well, it was. everybody was poor, but it was some Blacks, Italians, some Jewish. It was just a mixture of all kinds. But, like I said, they were all poor, cause we pretty well ran together. HUNTLEY: Did you live on the same streets? Was there a street that Blacks lived on or were the homes intermixed? WEAVER: We weren&#039 ; t separated by many blocks...maybe a block. I was very close to the 16th Street Baptist Church. That was kind of a landmark back in those days of the Black community. And I remember that one of my very best friends was a Black boy, his name was David, and David and I used to go down to a grocery store at 8th Avenue and 17th Street and sometimes we would.if they had their fruit out in the front, we&#039 ; d grab a banana or two and run. David, at some point in time, in those early days, got killed. He got run over by a trolley car and I remember the man had just caught us stealing some fruit the day before and gave us a pretty good beating and David got killed and they had him laid out at one of the Black funeral homes. They were like in a cluster right there around that area and I went to the layout and I went back by the grocery store and took a brick and threw it through the plate glass window. I said &quot ; David, this is for you.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Tell me, when I grew up in the western section of Birmingham and there were Whites, Italians and Blacks. Prior to going to elementary school, we all played together and were best friends and all. But once we went to school, we each went to our different schools, which affected our relationship because then, we didn&#039 ; t have that same kind of opportunity to get together. Did you have the same kind of experience? WEAVER: Yes, I&#039 ; ve always found in life that young children, especially the elementary children, they enjoy the mixing of the races and they get along fine. They have friends in every area, but as they grow older, I think a lot of what they get at home, from their parents, rubs off on them and they go on their own respective ways. My mother taught me to be color blind and she never did try to restrict me from running around with any particular person and I guess that&#039 ; s why...not to say that we weren&#039 ; t prejudiced, I think most people are born with a little prejudice and as they get older, they become more prejudice. But my mother taught me to be color blind. HUNTLEY: Yeah, you raised the issue of color blind. Explain that... what do you mean by &quot ; color blind?&quot ; WEAVER: Well, she said there was no difference in a Black and a White, an Italian, and a Jew. They were all the same, created by the same Master Planner and, that beneath that skin, everything was the same. The pigment of the skin might be different, but the inside was a lot... was the same and that every person was different. And, I...I&#039 ; ve found that to be true. HUNTLEY: Did you get the impression that the same things was being taught in other White homes at the time, or were there differences in your home and other homes? WEAVER: Oh, there was a great deal of difference. I was even asked by some of my White friends, and some of their parents. Their mother...one woman asked me one time why I ran around with this Black boy, that I should stay with my own kind. HUNTLEY: So, you were really probably the exception rather than the rule, at the time, it appears? WEAVER: I think so. HUNTLEY: I&#039 ; ve asked this question a number of times...a number of people that I&#039 ; ve interviewed, but what was your community&#039 ; s relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? WEAVER: Well, we were...I was never, that I can remember, arrested. I think at one point in time in my young life I might have been arrested as an ambulance driver in some feud I was having about whether I could drive an ambulance or not. But, I never really had any trouble with the police. I guess it&#039 ; s because I had long legs and we were able to outrun them. But the community and the police...the police seemed to always be down in the community looking for people and for something to take you in for. And, they were always chasing us, I can remember that. HUNTLEY: So, you were with a group of juveniles who were rather active? WEAVER: Delinquents. HUNTLEY: Juvenile delinquents who were rather active in the community and always into something? WEAVER: Right, we didn&#039 ; t mean any harm, but we didn&#039 ; t have any money and what we got, we got by picking up bottles and doing odd jobs and just making it the best way we could on the streets. HUNTLEY: Now, was this a White gang, as you refer to? WEAVER: This was a mixed gang. HUNTLEY: A mixed gang, in Birmingham in 1940s? WEAVER: In the 30s and the early 40s. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s interesting. Would there. in your growing up, and of course, as I said, you are on sort of the periphery of the downtown community, so I figure it&#039 ; s probably a rather unique community. Were there community organizations after you grew up? Obviously, during your teenage years, there probably were just those that you and your well I hesitate to say gang members, but for lack of a better term, gang members. But were there community organizations that your mother could participate in and other grown-ups of the community? Were there any mixing of the grown-ups? WEAVER: Well, I can remember that I went to school. Of course, I went to Hendley and then I went to Ensley High School and Phillips High School because we moved a lot. I was on the south side, the north side, the east side, the west side, Ensley and even Fairfield at one point in time. As far as the organizations, as I became older, we graduated from the close knit in that area where we lived on 17th Street, 18th Street, 19th Street North, downtown, we could easily walk to the Boys Club...and the Boys Club was available up on 26th Street and we&#039 ; d go there because they had swimming facilities, they had basketball facilities and we could get into a lot of things, and we did this. HUNTLEY: You lived on the periphery of Kelly Ingram Park? WEAVER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me anything about Kelly Ingram? How it changes over time? WEAVER: Kelly Ingram was a playground for Hendley School and it was also an area for people to hang out. We had our playground... and I remember we had a wrestling area where we would go over and wrestle and just play in general in Kelly Ingram Park. It was just a hang out. But, as I got older, it was easier to walk up to the Boys Club because we had all of the facilities that we didn&#039 ; t have at Kelly Ingram Park. But, Kelly Ingram Park was a notorious hangout area, play area for gangs and there were a lot of fights out there on Kelly Ingram Park with different gangs. We&#039 ; d come, a lot of times with sacks full of bricks and wait until the other gang got there and then we&#039 ; d start throwing those rocks. HUNTLEY: At that point, I guess we are talking about the 30s and 40s. Was the periphery of Kelly Ingram...were those homes right around Kelly Ingram...were they Black or White? WEAVER: Well, they were Black and White. That was mostly... the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church, was kind of the landmark of the Black community. And, then, there was...I believe an Italian grocery where the Civil Rights Museum is today. And, then of course, there was A. G. Gaston Funeral home which was on the other corner. That was the center of the Black community. But then, you turned and went up to the Mecca Hotel and you gradually got away and into the downtown area, but the Black community came up to that line because of the Masonic Temple building and the other buildings where Blacks had offices. HUNTLEY: Some have suggested that Kelly Ingram was really a White park...that Blacks were not allowed in the park. WEAVER: There were a lot of gang fights over that and, some of us who were in a mixed gang, fought the other gangs for the turf, so to speak. Because...Blacks at that point in time, especially in the 30s were not welcomed in Kelly Ingram Park. It kind of changed in the 40s because of the neighborhood. HUNTLEY: Was the neighborhood changing at that time? WEAVER: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, you were getting more Blacks into the area, so therefore Kelly Ingram would become accessible then to Blacks? WEAVER: I would think so, yes. HUNTLEY: In 1954 when Brown v. Board of Education decision was made by the Supreme Court, what were you doing at that time? WEAVER: I was working at TCI. I also had a part-time job driving an ambulance and was also still going in and out occasionally at Southeastern Bible College. HUNTLEY: So, you attended Southeastern Bible College after you... WEAVER: All during...from the 50s...early 50s I was at Southeastern Bible College. The Lord had saved me in &#039 ; 49 and I was...I was a Christian then and um, of course, everything changed for me. My life changed and I was really seeking to make money to pay the bills and do what I could on at Southeastern because I felt that the Lord had called me to be involved in the Civil Rights Movement and I had become I was asked to come to A. G. Gaston Funeral Home and speak to their group of employees as a young minister and student and I went there and got to know a lot of the Blacks and it just became a challenge to do more. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about. before we get into the Civil Rights era, tell me a little bit about after you finished high school. Did you go right into bible college at that time, or did you find a job? WEAVER: Well, I did both really, I both. HUNTLEY: Okay, and, what year did you finish. Phillips High School? WEAVER: No, I didn&#039 ; t finish Phillips, I went back to Cassville to finish my last year. I went over there for six or seven months to finish high school. HUNTLEY: Why did you go back to Cassville? WEAVER: Well, my mother was having trouble then with her studies to become a nurse over at the Old Hillman Hospital and I would make frequent trips back to Cassville to an uncle&#039 ; s farm. During the summer a lot of times, I would go over there and work, and I joined a church over there, and I decided to go back to Cassville and pick up what I needed to finish, and I did. HUNTLEY: Okay, so what did you do then right after finishing at Cassville? WEAVER: I came back to Birmingham. I had really never left it. It was just a short bus trip from Cassville to Rome, Rome to Gadsden, Gadsden to Birmingham. I came back and just picked up my activities. HUNTLEY: And those activities included what? WEAVER: Part-time ambulance driver, working at the TCI. HUNTLEY: How did you initially get the job at TCI? What was your job at TCI? WEAVER: I was in the metallurgist department out there. HUNTLEY: How did you get that job? WEAVER: To tell you the truth, I don&#039 ; t remember. I think I just went out there and they needed somebody, and they hired me. HUNTLEY: And, how long were you there? WEAVER: I want to say a year, but it could have been less. I left there abruptly. HUNTLEY: Why, any particular reason? WEAVER: Well, when I had become involved in the Civil Rights Movement, I had also become involved in politics and I had run for city office and I had gone with two ministers from Southeastern Bible College and registered people to vote in several states, and and Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth who I had got to know, had told me that he was going to sit in a White waiting room at the terminal station, the Union Terminal Station. And, I told him I would come and join him. But, Whites could not sit with Blacks and Blacks could not sit with Whites. I did not know that Fred had notified the media and they...he really garnered a crowd and when I got there, I had to park a block away and I went in and sat with him and of course, he had sense enough to get a ticket and I didn&#039 ; t. I didn&#039 ; t think about buying a ticket. I didn&#039 ; t think I needed one. I was going to stay there, it was my home. But, the mob gathered, and the police came in and wanted to know if, if they had tickets and he and Ruby, his wife did. I had no ticket, so they escorted me to the door and several persons heard the remark that &quot ; well what are you going to do with him.&quot ; They said, &quot ; we&#039 ; re going to turn him over to the mob&quot ; and they did...they put me right out the front door. The guy grabbed me just as soon as I got out and hit me with a suitcase and knocked me to the floor...to the ground and kicked me a couple of times, but ABC was there taking pictures. HUNTLEY: What&#039 ; s AB..oh, the network? WEAVER: Yes. So, I think it saved my life &#039 ; cause they don&#039 ; t like to have the Klan then never did like to have their pictures taken. So, I got up and walked to my car, a block away slowly because I knew to run would be a disaster but scared to death. got in my car and as I got in my car and got the key in the ignition, there was construction going on right there and they picked up cement blocks and started knocking the top in and busting the glass and then trying to rock and turn my car over. About a dozen got on each side and they were rocking my car but I managed to get it started and leave the area where I went straight to the City Hall, where I was arrested and given a speedy trial because they wanted me to leave town, for my own safety. HUNTLEY: There was a report that in, in your escaping the crowd, that you actually ran over someone? WEAVER: Someone said I did. That I actually hit them. Actually, I think I just pushed them out of the way with my fender. There was no real injury, but, I ran a red light and that was the thing to get away from them I had to run a red light. HUNTLEY: And, you were arrested? WEAVER: For running a red light and fleeing a mob. And, that necessitated me to immediately resign at the TCI and go out and get my last check which a Black funeral director, Ernest Poole and John Poole took me. They also hid my car and hid me and they took me out to get my last check and there was a mob out there at TCI. People were hollering at me and calling me names, but I got my last check and I left TCI that day. HUNTLEY: Why did you think it was necessary for you to leave TCI? WEAVER: I was told to resign, that they didn&#039 ; t want me out there anymore. HUNTLEY: Now this is in &#039 ; 57. WEAVER: &#039 ; 57. HUNTLEY: Fred Shuttlesworth starts the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights in 1956. WEAVER: Right. HUNTLEY: Were you involved in that? WEAVER: I was told I was an early member of SCLC and I attended a lot of the Monday night meetings. But I met Fred either in &#039 ; 53 or &#039 ; 54. Also, that year, I met Dr. King when he came to Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery and I had gone down in &#039 ; 52 and spent a day and a half with Vernon Johns who was the pastor at that particular time, and I have to say, looking back over the years that my motivation came more from those two men, Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth and Rev. Vernon Johns and of course, Dr. King had a part in it. But Vernon Johns was the one who wanted to start boycotting the buses, which later Dr. King did, and Vernon Johns felt that Blacks should establish businesses so that all the money wouldn&#039 ; t be going to White folk and White businesses, and he was right. And, he even started a fruit stand down there in front of his church. HUNTLEY: Why did you initially go down to visit with Vernon Johns? WEAVER: Because of the publicity he was getting. I had heard about him and then I met Fred because of the same thing. I went over to Bethel Baptist Church one day and met a young minister. I said &quot ; you know, we&#039 ; re trying to talk to Black churches and Black people about registering to vote and council with them&quot ; , and he said &quot ; well let me show you a list,&quot ; and he took me into the front of the church and showed me this long list of people that had registered to vote and becomeHe said &quot ; I tell my folk that they&#039 ; re not first class citizens until they register to vote. become voters.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Did you get your initial impetus to get involved in the movement while you were at the bible college, when you and the other two student ministers decided to help register people to vote? WEAVER: I think my interest really started when I went over and spoke to A. G. Gaston&#039 ; s group at the Smith &amp ; Gaston Funeral Home and got to know him and his wife, T. J. Gardner, his son-in-law and their family and some of their people and through them I met P. A. Welch and some of the other business leaders in the Black community. Virgil Harris who later managed my campaign when I ran against Bull Conner. Virgil was a great man. And I had thought long and hard about the Civil Rights Institute and what you&#039 ; re doing and frankly, the reason I&#039 ; m here today is because I want people to remember those people for what they did, because without them, we would have never gotten as far as our goals are, and I always tell people to thank God for Bull Conner because, had he not turned the dogs loose and the fire hoses and had he ignored us, in those days, the movement never would have gone forward and I would like to pay tribute to those four young ladies who were in the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church because their sacrifice. You know they&#039 ; re saints now, but they could have been mothers and grandmothers and business professionals, but God chose to make angels out of them and they made a tremendous sacrifice because, at that point, the Civil Rights Movement had come to a slow walk, you might say, and that spurred things to really start happening. Blacks got elected to public office. We got judges and the Civil Rights Movement really moved forward after that. HUNTLEY: Let me take you back just a bit, though, before we get to that point. Let me just ask you, well firstly. the first issue that was developed by the Alabama Christian Movement was the issue of the hiring of Black policemen. Your campaign, around the same time, you were campaigning on the issue of hiring Black policemen. Was there any connection? WEAVER: Well, like I said, when the Lord saved me, my life changed. You know a lot of people say, Lamar, you made a Christian decision. Well, I wasn&#039 ; t thinking about the Christian decision, I was thinking about the right decision and then when somebody suggested well you&#039 ; re getting around now, why don&#039 ; t you run for public office, so I decided to take Bull on. And, and... HUNTLEY: What year was that? WEAVER: This, I believe was in &#039 ; 55. It could have been &#039 ; 54 but I think it was in &#039 ; 55 and it could have run over into &#039 ; 56 because I ran twice. I ran as a write-in candidate after I came in third in the first campaign. But, my feeling was and knowing people, such great civil rights leaders like Arthur Shores and Orzell Billingsley and Peter Hall and Emory Jackson, the fearless editor of the Birmingham World. You know, the problems in Birmingham, it had been a segregated city for so long and that there were no Blacks on the police force or the fire department and so, right away, I was the only candidate out of five that said, the headlines were &quot ; the only difference in this whole campaign, is Weaver wants to hire Blacks,&quot ; so I&#039 ; m proud of that because I think I did make people think. HUNTLEY: What was the response of the police and the firemen? WEAVER: Well, Virgil Harris came up with an idea...he managed my campaign. He said &quot ; let&#039 ; s give the police and the firemen a raise, they&#039 ; re not making very much money.&quot ; So, I suggested that and I was the only candidate that did. The White police and firemen forgave me for wanting to hire Blacks because every time I&#039 ; d get out on the street, they would congratulate me and wish me luck and I think they...a great deal of them supported me in the campaign. HUNTLEY: You suggested that Virgil Harris managed your campaign? WEAVER: Virgil Harris did manage my campaign. HUNTLEY: This is a Black man? WEAVER: He put up a lot of money. In those days $500 was a lot of money, but we got some TV time and some radio ads that I would have never gotten had Virgil not got in it and helped me...help me financially. Virgil Harris was one of the greatest thinkers and one of the greatest brains that I ever knew. He actually came up with the...he was the originator of the recycling program to recycle bottles, to recycle glass, to recycle cans, to recycle paper. And, he had a plan and I adopted it for my campaign, that he would...that we were going to recycle everything and save the city tons of money. And, it would have worked too, but Birmingham wasn&#039 ; t ready for that. HUNTLEY: So, you&#039 ; re suggesting that Virgil Harris really is the initiator of what we determine today as &quot ; Earth Day?&quot ; WEAVER: I believe so. I really think so, yes. HUNTLEY: What was the reaction of your mother to your involvement in the Movement? WEAVER: Well, my mother was a good Christian woman. And, my mother, of course, did not advise me one way or the other. She was fearful of my activity because she had married a man who was in the Air Force and they travelled around to different air force bases, but they were here when Rev. Shuttlesworth and I were involved in the mob scene at the terminal station. And, the great thing about my mother...and I&#039 ; ll tell you how...how great a Christian she was, I said &quot ; momma,&quot ; I said &quot ; now I&#039 ; m going to tell them that I&#039 ; m going north, but I&#039 ; m really going south&quot ; and when the newspaper... and they contacted her, she said &quot ; well, to tell you the truth, my son says he&#039 ; s going north, but he&#039 ; s really going south.&quot ; And another thing about that, they were in Crestview, Florida when just a little later after the terminal station episode, I was spending the night with them on Eglan Air Force Base in Fort Walton Beach, Florida and the Klan had followed me. They knew I was going somewhere down there, but they didn&#039 ; t know where. They found my car and in the middle of the night, my mother woke up screaming that the flames were attracting so much light out front, she said &quot ; the house&#039 ; s on fire.&quot ; Well, the house wasn&#039 ; t on fire, it was my car. The Klan burned my car in front of my mother&#039 ; s house. HUNTLEY: In Eglan Air Force Base? WEAVER: In Eglan Air Force Base. HUNTLEY: You did take part in the mass...the mass meetings of the Alabama Christian Movement. WEAVER: Yes, on Monday nights. HUNTLEY: Can you describe what one of those meetings would be like? WEAVER: Well, as people who are here now in Birmingham, like Abraham Woods, Jr., a great worker in the early days, would tell you all the churches would not open their doors to the movement. There were some Black churches that closed their doors. Some Black ministers forbid them to meet and would not cooperate in anyway. But, some did and those few, I can remember Rev. Alfred. Alfred who is now deceased, over in North Birmingham opened the doors of his church. And there were several churches.I think Sixteenth Street opened their doors. People would come, the church would always be packed and there would be a lot of speakers and, Rev. Shuttlesworth was the leader of those meetings. And, they would threaten, the Klan would threaten that they were going to have snipers out there to shoot as we come out of the door and, as a matter of fact, a man did take a shot at me at 29th Street North on the porch of a house over there. We dug the 22 out of the wall, but that wasn&#039 ; t coming out of the meeting. The meetings were.... HUNTLEY: Did y&#039 ; all find out who that person was? WEAVER: No, no, I knew it was somebody next door, but we never knew who. The police would not even come out there. Well, I think they came, but nothing happened. And, the meetings...people...they would last late, 11:00 to 12:00 sometimes. And, people was all fired up, you know, and about time to break, I remember Abraham Woods was called the &quot ; lookout man&quot ; . Now, I know you&#039 ; ve heard the expression &quot ; the bag man,&quot ; please ask me about that of Bill Shortridge, but Woods would go out the back door and go around the front door and look out into the dark night to see if he could spot anything that was going on out there that might be dangerous for us to come out. And we were always afraid that they were going to shoot somebody or fire into the crowd as people came out of the churches. I did not stay for all of the meetings. I left in &#039 ; 57 and the meetings continued. HUNTLEY: How many Whites were involved in the meetings? WEAVER: Well, to tell you the truth, up to &#039 ; 57 I never saw any White people there. There could have been some, but I never saw any. After &#039 ; 57, I can&#039 ; t speak for those who might have become involved or sympathetic later on. I know that there were a lot of people sympathetic to the meetings, but they didn&#039 ; t come out prior to &#039 ; 57. HUNTLEY: There was mention of police who actually attended and recorded meetings. Do you remember that at all? WEAVER: Well, I&#039 ; ve been told that and I&#039 ; m sure it happened because the people have told me the same stories, that the meetings were recorded. But I actually never saw a White face in any of the congregations. HUNTLEY: So, you were the exception. Tell me about Mr. Shortridge. WEAVER: Later in the Movement, when people were becoming frequently arrested and, they would need to be bailed out, Shortridge was called on to get the money together and he was called &quot ; the bag man,&quot ; and his wife I think is on the Civil Rights Museum now. He was as White as I am. You know, a lot of people couldn&#039 ; t believe he was Black, but he was a great man and had a great sense of humor and he would always go out and get the money and come down, put up the bail. We called him &quot ; the bag man.&quot ; HUNTLEY: So that was...I talked with his wife and she said that he was never arrested. She said if he had been, they would not have been able to get the money, because he was the man who handled the money. WEAVER: And there&#039 ; d been a lot of them stayed in jail. HUNTLEY: What church did you attend at that time? WEAVER: Well, I attended the Norwood Baptist Church occasionally. I, I shifted around. I&#039 ; ve never really attended a church on a regular basis. When I left Birmingham and went to Cincinnati, I joined the largest Black church up there, Revelation Baptist Church. But, I did not attend regularly. I still don&#039 ; t attend church regularly. HUNTLEY: You joined Revelation Baptist Church? WEAVER: In Cincinnati, Ohio, right. HUNTLEY: This was a Black church? WEAVER: Yes, and my membership has been there since &#039 ; 57, still there. HUNTLEY: Were there other White members? WEAVER: No, I was the only White member there. HUNTLEY: You sort of stood out in your, in your career then? WEAVER: Well, I just asked the Lord to tell me the right thing to do and I tried to do it. I tried to be an example for my children, I tried to be an example for my friends. HUNTLEY: What did you do when you went to Cincinnati? First, of all, why did you leave Birmingham to go to Cincinnati? WEAVER: Well, some of my friends told me, after the episode at the terminal station, that my days were numbered and, especially after it became known that I had been hiding out here and that I went to Washington. Senator Tom Hennings, who was a senator from Missouri had asked me to come up prior to that and speak to the first committee talking about the first civil rights bill in Washington. A bill that later passed, I think in &#039 ; 60. It finally passed the Senate and the House. I went up there right after the episode at the terminal station and arrived amid, a bomb threat at the airport, leaving Birmingham. And, in getting there, my congressman, who was George Huddleston at the time, made it a point to meet me in the hallway when I was going to give my testimony. And called me every name in the book, told me never to come back to Birmingham, that I was the most despised man in the south. Ebony even ran an article, in June I think of &#039 ; 55, &quot ; 56 or &quot ; 57 that had already called me the &quot ; most wanted man in the South.&quot ; HUNTLEY: So, you&#039 ; re the White man...southern White man to... WEAVER: Testify before the Senate Sub-committee on the civil rights bill. I was the only one thatnshowed up from the south. My statement that I gave them is a matter of record in the Congressional Record. And, the man who helped me with my statement was Emory Jackson who was the editor of the Birmingham World then, and Virgil Harris. HUNTLEY: Virgil Harris keeps popping up. Then, your days then, were numbered? WEAVER: Numbered here and I left...that&#039 ; s why I left Birmingham and got on a train and rode it to the end of the line and that was Cincinnati. That was the L&amp ; N and their last stop...the end of their...the train...their route was Cincinnati, Ohio. And, I was met there by Rev. George Sangster and Rev. Aaron Bland who were ministers at Revelation Baptist. They had been alerted that I was coming, and they met me with open arms. I had my typewriter, I was writing some short stories for Ebony and New Amsterdam News. I had my typewriter and my underwear. All I had was a sack, that&#039 ; s all I had when I got there. I checked into The YMCA...stayed there two nights until Rev. Sangster took me into his home. Shortly after that, I got a job at a funeral home up there and worked for that funeral home for five years. HUNTLEY: Well, speaking of funeral homes, prior to leaving Birmingham, you, in fact, were somewhat of a fugitive in the context of being searched for...by a number of entities in the city. WEAVER: The night after the episode at the terminal station, Ernest and John Poole hid me out in the Poole Brothers Funeral Home. And, I actually got in a casket during my stay there. Aubry Bushleon who has the Bushelon Funeral Home now, was there at the time and could testify to that. But, they hid me out. Saved my life. HUNTLEY: Were people...did people come looking for you? WEAVER: Yes, they came looking for me because someone had told them (the KKK and others) that I was there. I slept at the funeral home and I actually got in a casket several times to hide during my stay there. John and Earnest Poole protected me. We were told that there was a leak somewhere and someone was giving information as to my whereabouts. We never found out for sure who did it. HUNTLEY: So, there was someone that was actually... WEAVER: Tipping them off. HUNTLEY: Tipping them off as to your location... WEAVER: My whereabouts, yes. HUNTLEY: So, when you arrived in Cincinnati, what did you do? What kind of work did you do? WEAVER: I went to work for the Witt-Good &amp ; Kelsch Funeral Home. My Civil Rights activities pretty well came to a halt except for some writing that I did. Occasionally, I would do something for Ebony and I did a few articles for the New Amsterdam News. Most of this was material that I had gathered throughout Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi and Florida from County seats where I questioned voting registrars as to how many Black voters were in their counties. I attended occasionally my church, Revelation Baptist Church where the Rev. George Sangster was pastor. The Rev. Aaron Bland was the assistant. Rev. Sangster dropped dead in the pulpit one Sunday morning. I encouraged the pulpit committee to ask Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth to come up from Birmingham and they did and they called him to be their pastor. I later went to work for the John Hancock Mutual Life Insurance Company where I worked for 24 years. HUNTLEY: You left Birmingham in 1957. WEAVER: &#039 ; 57. HUNTLEY: Did you ever visit, return, at any time? WEAVER: Maybe once or twice. But, to come back and visit. I came back well after &#039 ; 78 I&#039 ; d come over often to visit. HUNTLEY: There was one thing I wanted to take you back just a bit, because in addition to...when you were running for office...in addition to running on the issue of hiring Black policemen, you also ran on the issue of integration. WEAVER: Well, I really didn&#039 ; t just get up and make that statement in front of the cameras. I didn&#039 ; t say that to Black audiences, and I didn&#039 ; t say it to white audiences. My emphasis was more on let&#039 ; s hire Blacks for the police force. Let&#039 ; s hire Blacks for the fire department. Let&#039 ; s give them a piece of the action. Let&#039 ; s have a slow integration. Let&#039 ; s do it because the Supreme Court is going to eventually say that it had to be done, should be done. So let&#039 ; s, you know, after &#039 ; 54 it was just a thing of &#039 ; how long is it going to be?&quot ; And I said, you know, let&#039 ; s do it and let&#039 ; s show some good faith and do it gradually. HUNTLEY: What was the reception? WEAVER: Not good--threats. I was surprised the Birmingham News published one of my letters about let&#039 ; s start now on a slow basis. HUNTLEY: So, in effect, you have always sort of stood out because of the positions that you&#039 ; ve taken where race is concerned in Birmingham. You obviously were a unique white man in 1955-56 talking about a gradual approach toward integration, because in the main, that simply was not being done. In 1956 the NAACP is outlawed from operating in the State of Alabama and here, you, a young white man at the time, talking about the necessity to move forward in terms of integrating the society. WEAVER: My very dear friend, who is gone on to her reward, Ruby Hurley, who was a champion with the NAACP,.... we used to talk quite a bit at Arthur Shores office about that. She and Fred Shuttlesworth, just two weeks ago when I was in his church in Cincinnati, Greater New Life, we talked about those days, Rev. Shuttlesworth and I....if you get as old as I am, you start thinking back to your first Christmas, if you can remember back that far...my mind comes and goes, to be honest with you, I don&#039 ; t remember everything, but I remember, a little red wagon and some raisons and, you know, a few tangerines, and oranges and apples. And, now, I know after health problems, that my time is limited, it&#039 ; s a cycle. So, as a Christian, we like to think that we have done the right thing. Whether it was a Christian decision sometimes, I don&#039 ; t know, but we&#039 ; d like to think that it was a right decision. I&#039 ; d like my children to think it&#039 ; s a right decision. I&#039 ; d like people to just think of me as a person who tried to do the right thing and make the right decision at the right time. HUNTLEY: Did you ever have any relationship with W. C. Patten? Did you know W. C. Patten? He was involved with the NAACP, voting rights and they may have been...well I know it was prior to your leaving, but also, he was active... WEAVER: Was he in the funeral business too? Did he have a funeral home? HUNTLEY: I don&#039 ; t have...I don&#039 ; t think so. WEAVER: The name is very familiar, and I can&#039 ; t remember. HUNTLEY: Right, but he was very active with the NAACP and with ... WEAVER: Ruby Hurley was my main person to contact with the NAACP. HUNTLEY: Okay. What impact do you think the Birmingham Movement had upon this community and the nation? WEAVER: Well, I&#039 ; ve said all along that I think in Birmingham is where it all started. The most impressionable things that have happened in the Civil Rights Movement, to my mind, and I don&#039 ; t want to sound morbid, but were the killing of the four children and the assassination of Dr. King. Those were the things that stand out. But, we all know that in Birmingham, the movement started and especially around Bessemer and Brookwood in some of those mining shafts. The truth will never be known until the judgment day and all these holes and wells and shafts give up their dead because a lot of people died in those early days, a lot of people disappeared. I think that Birmingham and the Movement in Birmingham really started people thinking. I know that...and this can be found in some of the newspaper articles which I have and which I&#039 ; ve submitted. Eleanor Roosevelt even said that the civil rights movement got a tremendous push by the efforts in Birmingham especially with Fred Shuttlesworth, with the bombing of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church, with those early meetings, spread to Montgomery, and we think it did spread to Montgomery. And then of course, Dr. King came along and came at the right time, at the right place and was a great man and he&#039 ; s a saint now. He made his mark and led the demonstrations nationwide, the march on Washington, but in my heart and in my autobiography, Bury My Heart in Birmingham, I&#039 ; m going to talk a lot about the Birmingham Movement and those who were involved and where credit should be given. HUNTLEY: How far are you along with your autobiography? WEAVER: I&#039 ; m almost finished with it. I wanted to share some with you today, but I didn&#039 ; t bring it, but I&#039 ; m almost finished. I&#039 ; m taking some pictures...I want to have some pictures in there. I can&#039 ; t take the picture of some of these people, but I can take a picture of their gravestone and tell about their sacrifices and what they did in the early Movement. Viola Liuzzo, the woman who was shot on the bus, the Lutheran minister who came down on the bus from the north, never to go back alive, who was beaten at Selma and who had to be taken to a Birmingham hospital where he died four days later. The young man, Jimmy Johnson, who really stirred up the march in Selma because he was killed trying to help his mother in a mob attack. There&#039 ; s just a lot of people that we&#039 ; ve got to remember that should be remembered for their families..for their family trees, &#039 ; cause somebody always wants to know, why...how did it happen...where. So, we got to make some statements. HUNTLEY: Well, we&#039 ; re looking with great anticipation to your autobiography, and what we&#039 ; re doing at the Civil Rights Institute, is simply to attempt to gather the information for the real story of Birmingham and of course, you&#039 ; ve played a tremendous role in that. WEAVER: Well, let me just say this too, that when the thought came up and was promoted by Dr. Arrington to build the Civil Rights Museum and I understand they spent $15 million? HUNTLEY: About $10 million. WEAVER: Yes, this was heard around the world. This was heard in Atlanta like a bombshell, in Cincinnati like a bombshell. These tour buses are converging on Birmingham and they want to see this museum and I think that this has done a tremendous amount of good and the people behind this are to be commended. There&#039 ; ve been little museums started here and there, but nothing of this magnitude and what you have here and you&#039 ; re to be commended and its great. And, it&#039 ; s a pleasure to even have a mention in the museum if nothing else, Lamar Weaver was a worker. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s for sure. That&#039 ; s an understatement. Let me just ask you one other question that relate to a person who was very instrumental in the development of the Birmingham Movement, but also had to leave Birmingham and that&#039 ; s Fred Shuttlesworth. And, I hear that you were instrumental in his eventually coming to Cincinnati. Can you tell me a little about that? WEAVER: Well, always let it be said that I&#039 ; m privileged to stand in Fred Shuttlesworth&#039 ; s shadow. I could have been called in the early days as a follower of Fred and I don&#039 ; t want to take anything away from anybody else who worked in the movement. But, Fred Shuttlesworth was a great person, and as a member when I left here and joined the Revelation Baptist Church in Cincinnati, our pastor dropped dead of a heart attack and I recommended to the pulpit committee that they talk to Fred and they asked Fred to come up there. As a matter of fact, I even sent Fred some money to come and he came, he spoke and they fell in love with him. They called him on the spot and he became the pastor of Revelation Baptist Church, and I told him two weeks ago, when I was at Greater New Life, he was my pastor for a while, you know, because I was a member there, and Fred Shuttlesworth had chose to take a dissatisfied division of the church and go to another site and they built a beautiful new church and he is still there, pastor of Greater New Life and doing great work in Cincinnati...has done a great work. HUNTLEY: Okay, well I want to thank you for taking your time and driving over from Atlanta this morning to come and sit and talk with us to give us your perception of what took place in Birmingham because that&#039 ; s a rather unique perspective that you have, being one of the few whites that were actively involved in the struggle. Again, thank you for coming. WEAVER: Thank you. HUNTLEY: I thought that went very well. WEAVER: Well, you made it...my mind comes and goes and I have to confess to you, I would have like to have said a few words about my children, there are six. My first and second children both were girls, their mother remarried and changed their names, but when one got 18 and one got 21, they set out to find me and find me they did. And one of them lives in Huntsville, and one of them in Huntsville, is a volunteer for the AIDS community up there. HUNTLEY: What are their names? WEAVER: My daughter&#039 ; s name down here in Brookwood is Mrs. Joyce Lewis and my daughter in Huntsville is Christine Huggins and they call me at least once a month and say &quot ; daddy I love you,&quot ; and the one in Huntsville says &quot ; I am so happy that you made the decision that you made,&quot ; and she said &quot ; my mother was wrong and my grandpa was wrong,&quot ; and she said &quot ; and you were right, and I&#039 ; m so proud of you daddy.&quot ; So, I get this kind of love from my family and this makes me feel good. My other children are Robert Charles Weaver, Sheryl Ann Weaver, Debra Joyce Weaver, and David Lamar Weaver, all are living in Atlanta. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s great. That&#039 ; ll be part of the transcript, if you don&#039 ; t mind. WEAVER: I want you to know that I am grateful for this opportunity and I want you to know that Lamar Weaver is nothing but one of the workers and that I never thought of losing my life. We weren&#039 ; t afraid back in those days. Now, we&#039 ; re afraid, see. Somebody told me the other day, said that &quot ; you come back down here, they been asking about you in Bessemer.&quot ; And they said &quot ; be careful.&quot ; But, now we think about that, but then, we didn&#039 ; t think and you know the greatest thing to me is, I was a part of change. I helped bring about change. HUNTLEY: You certainly did. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=LWeaver1995.xml LWeaver1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rev. Lamar Weaver Description An account of the resource Rev. Lamar Weaver discusses getting to know Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth as he got more involved in the Movement. Weaver ran against Bull Connor on an anti-segregation platform. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950316W Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham 16th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Union Terminal Station (Birmingham, Ala.) Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Bull Connor--Commissioner of Public Safety--Birmingham, Ala. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-03-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/f0ecdffb1711ae20a4dac4dcf2ab0c03.jpg 372b9ddd1b32efe876d3eef226370875 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Pinkie Shortridge OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=PShortridge1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Funeral Directors OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 February 10, 1995 Pinkie Shortridge Interviewed on February 10, 1995 19950210S 0:44:56 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham National Funeral Directors Association of the United States Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Southern Christian Leadership Conference Funeral Directors Pinkie Shortridge Horace Huntley Video 1:|3(3)|21(14)|48(3)|68(10)|90(2)|107(1)|127(5)|151(2)|174(11)|192(8)|208(5)|223(2)|244(3)|256(1)|273(8)|283(3)|304(8)|316(4)|327(5)|343(2)|362(4)|375(5)|382(14)|400(4)|427(8)|452(4)|472(10)|496(4)|514(7)|522(14)|534(5)|559(5)|577(6)|588(9)|610(16)|630(14)|649(5)|667(3)|687(13)|705(4)|717(7)|736(10)|753(7)|767(3) 0 https://youtu.be/YHop5rj74-Y YouTube video English 62 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Pinkie Shortridge. I am Dr. Horace Huntley, today is Friday, February 10, 1995 and we are at Miles College. I just want to say again, good morning to you and welcome and I'm glad you could take time out of your busy schedule to come out and talk with us. 33.5161, -86.8145 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 104 Family Background First what I'd like to do is just to get a little background. Tell me a little something about your parents. Where were they from? Mrs. Shortridge discusses her parent's origins and education. college ; education ; farming ; Father ; Mother ; Parents ; Parker High School Birmingham (Ala.) ; Education, Higher--New York (State) ; Kewanee (Miss.) ; Livingston (Ala.) 256 Early Education &quot ; What about your schooling?&quot ; Mrs. Shortridge discusses her early education and time spent at various colleges in the Birmingham area. She also briefly mentions her time working for the insurance department at Booker T. Washington Business College. funeral director ; insurance ; Jeff State Mortuary Science ; Shortridge Funeral Home Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham-Southern College ; Booker T. Washington Business College ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 328 Community Background When you were growing up, what community did you live in? Pinkie Shortridge talks about the make up of her community. community ; Hospital ; Steel Mill ; University Avondale (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Ensley (Birmingham, Ala.) ; New York ; Tennessee Coal, Iron, and Railroad Company 473 Relationship to Birmingham Police Department I see. What was your community’s relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? Pinkie Shortridge discusses her communities relationship with the Birmingham Police Department. Blacks--United States ; Community ; Confrontation ; Whites--United States--Attitudes Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Bull Connor--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Ensley (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Howard University 600 Bill Shortridge's Educational Background He's a ... tell me about his educational background. Did he finish from Parker? Pinkie Shortridge talks about her husband Bill Shortridge's educational background. Private school Alabama State College ; E. J. Oliver ; Fairfield (Ala.) ; Howard University ; Montevallo (Ala.) ; Pratt City (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Selma University (Selma, Ala.) ; Tuskegee Institute ; University of Montevallo 698 Involvement in the Civil Rights Movement You became actively involved in the civil rights movement. Why? Why did you become involved? Pinkie Shortridge talks about being involved in the movement because of her husband. Advocate ; Voter registration ; Voting rights African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; NAACP ; Scottsboro Boys 816 Meetings with the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights In 1956, when Alabama outlawed the NAACP from operating, what happened then? Pinkie Shortridge explains her and her husbands role bailing people out of jail from the movement. African American churches ; Bail Bonds ; Detectives ; Fund raising ; Funeral Directors ; Lawyers 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Demetrius Newton ; Jacksonville (Fla.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1181 Threats to Stop the Movement Are there any...? Were there ever any attempts to stop you and your husband from being involved with the movement? Pinkie Shortridge talks about the times that her and her husband faced threats to keep them from continuing the movement. Harrassment ; Pistol permit ; Threats FBI 1295 Assassination Attempt on Husband What happened? How did they attempt to assassinate him? Pinkie Shortridge explains the time her husband was almost assassinated. Assassination attempts ; Bombed ; Guards ; Gunshots ; Phone Calls ; Police Absence United States. Federal Bureau of Investigation 1527 Protections for People in Movement What about other people whose homes were bombed? Did they have the same kind of protection that you had? Pinkie Shortridge talks about the protections that people in the movement had. Bail Bondsman ; Bombs ; Connections ; Guards ; Non-violence ; Protection King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1625 First Meeting With Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. How well did you know Doctor King? Pinkie Shortridge talks about the first meetings and encounters with Dr. King. Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity ; Howard University ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; National Funeral Directors Association of the United States 1681 Husband's Role in the National Funeral Directors Association What was your husband's role with the National Funeral Directors? Pinkie Shortridge mentions husbands role in National Funeral Directors Association. President National Funeral Directors Association of the United States 1730 Marriage to Bill Shortridge When you got married, you married Mr. Shortridge... Pinkie Shortridge talks about how her and Bill Shortridge came togehter. Age Difference ; Attraction 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Booker T. Washington (Insurance Company) ; Kennedy, Bobby 1916 Dealing With Police Brutality Your children... You had how many children? Pinkie Shortridge talks about about police brutality against blacks started to slow down when Richard Arrington came aboard. Blacks--United States ; Police brutality--United States ; Whites--United States--Attitudes Arrington, Richard ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Deutsch, Arthur ; Fraternal Order of Police 2185 First Days of the Movement Do you know of any of the things that were taking... I know you know of them, but things that were taking place during the first days of the movement when they were trying to integrate the buses? Are there any incidents that you remember during that time? Pinkie Shortridge talks of her husband being the man with the money to help bail people out. Bail Bondsmen ; Certified Public Accountant ; Money Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 2272 Relationship Between Southern Christian Leadership Conference and Alabama Christian Movement What about the relationship between the SCLC [Southern Christian Leadership Conference] and the Alabama Christian Movement during the times that... in 1963, when they were raising money? Pinkie Shortridge talks about how SCLC and ACMHR helped one another. Fundraising ; Money Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity ; Civil Rights Movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; National Funeral Directors Association of the United States ; New York ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 2415 Impact of the Movement on Community What would you... If I asked you the question, ‘What did the movement do for the community?’ what would be your reply? Was it a positive influence or...? Pinkie Shortridge discusses the impact of the movement on her community. Community ; Education ; Voter Registration ; Whites--United States--Attitudes King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 2509 School Integration Pinkie Shortridge mentions how when integration happened the funeral directors would bus the kids in. Bus ; Funeral Home Director ; Harassment ; Integration ; School Children ; Secondary Education Birmingham News ; West End High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 2651 Interview Conclusion Okay. Mrs. Shortridge, I certainly appreciate your taking time out of your busy schedule. I know you are still running your funeral home and other kinds of activities. You are still involved in many things, so, again, thank you again for taking the tine out, for coming out and spending the time with us this morning. Oral History Pinkie Shortridge discusses working with her husband Bill to bail demonstrators out of jail through the ACMHR. They continued their involvement with the Movement with Dr. King and the National Funeral Directors Association. HUNTLEY: Good morning. SHORTRIDGE: Good morning. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Pinkie Shortridge. I am Dr. Horace Huntley, today is Friday, February 10, 1995 and we are at Miles College. I just want to say again, good morning to you and welcome and I&#039 ; m glad you could take time out of your busy schedule to come out and talk with us. Obviously, what we are doing is attempting to develop profiles of individuals who have been instrumental in the development of Birmingham and particularly, the development of the civil rights movement. I know that you and your husband were very much involved in that, so again, I want to say thank you for coming out and sitting with us this morning. SHORTRIDGE: Glad to be here. HUNTLEY: First what I&#039 ; d like to do is just to get a little background. Tell me a little something about your parents. Where were they from? SHORTRIDGE: My mother was born in Livingston, Alabama. My father was born in Mississippi. HUNTLEY: So, your father, was he a farmer? SHORTRIDGE: Yes, he was a farmer. HUNTLEY: So, he had his own farm. Where were you born? SHORTRIDGE: I was born in Kewanee, Mississippi. HUNTLEY: Kewanee, Mississippi. And how old were you when you came to Birmingham? SHORTRIDGE: Ten years old. HUNTLEY: Ten years old. So, do you remember much about Kewanee, Mississippi? SHORTRIDGE: Well, we would go back there about once a year to visit my father. HUNTLEY: So, in visiting back in Kewanee, you really never left, then. You went back periodically, so you still had friends and relatives there? SHORTRIDGE: Well, we didn&#039 ; t have too many relatives there. HUNTLEY: Is that right? SHORTRIDGE: No. We&#039 ; d just go back to see my father. HUNTLEY: I see. How many brothers and sisters do you have? SHORTRIDGE: I have only one sister. HUNTLEY: Is she older or younger? SHORTRIDGE: She is younger than I am. HUNTLEY: What about your parents&#039 ; education? How much education did they have? SHORTRIDGE: Well, my mother finished Parker High School after she came to Birmingham. She left Birmingham and went to New York. She attended college there and she received over twenty degrees, including degrees in nursing and decorating. HUNTLEY: So, your mother was rather active? SHORTRIDGE: Very active. HUNTLEY: Maybe that&#039 ; s where you got your activism? SHORTRIDGE: I don&#039 ; t know about that. My mother also did private duty work. HUNTLEY: So, she actually lived in New York for forty years. SHORTRIDGE: Yes, she lived in New York for forty years. One of her grandchildren had been injured, and she took care of him for about 25 years. HUNTLEY: What about your schooling? SHORTRIDGE: I finished Parker High School. I then went to Booker T. Washington Business College. Later, I attended Jeff State Mortuary Science. I have also taken classes at Birmingham Southern. I need about four more quarters before I can finish Birmingham Southern, if I ever go back. HUNTLEY: So, you are a chip off the old block? SHORTRIDGE: I don&#039 ; t know about that. It&#039 ; s something to do. HUNTLEY: What kinds of work have you done? SHORTRIDGE: Like what? HUNTLEY: When you finished Booker T. Washington? SHORTRIDGE: Well, I worked at Booker T. Washington in the insurance department for about twenty years. After my husband died, I took over the business. HUNTLEY: And that business is? SHORTRIDGE: Shortridge Funeral Home. That was in [19]64. HUNTLEY: So, you are a funeral director? SHORTRIDGE: Right. HUNTLEY: When you were growing up, what community did you live in? SHORTRIDGE: Well, we lived in a shotgun house in Avondale. We lived there until we moved to Ensley on Eighteenth Street and we bought a house from Mr. Pritchett, who was a well-known musician here in Birmingham. They moved to New York. HUNTLEY: So, how would you... Let&#039 ; s look at the two communities. Avondale community...what was the make-up of it? SHORTRIDGE: Well, there were nothing but shotgun houses in Avondale, and Ensley offered a better living condition in a sense. HUNTLEY: What kind of occupations did the people have in the two communities? SHORTRIDGE: Well in Ensley, it was mostly TCI, Tennessee Coal and Iron. HUNTLEY: Steel mill? SHORTRIDGE: Yes, steel mill. HUNTLEY: What about in Avondale? SHORTRIDGE: Private home, most of it. HUNTLEY: Did you have any people that worked in the steel mills from Avondale, like maybe Sloss? SHORTRIDGE: I had an uncle who worked in the steel mill that lived in Avondale, and that was the reason we moved to Ensley, to be near his job. HUNTLEY: Were there men in the community that actually worked at Sloss? SHORTRIDGE: I don&#039 ; t know, because I worked at the hospital. HUNTLEY: What hospital? SHORTRIDGE: University Hospital. I worked in Central Supply for years. HUNTLEY: This was before or after... SHORTRIDGE: At night. HUNTLEY: While you were working at Booker T. Washington? SHORTRIDGE: No, while I was in school. That was before I started working. HUNTLEY: I see. What was your community&#039 ; s relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? SHORTRIDGE: Well, at that time, it was just a police department. Bull Conner, we all knew him and .... HUNTLEY: Why did everybody know Bull Conner? SHORTRIDGE: Well, I guess because of his reputation, especially with respect to Black people. HUNTLEY: Was the relationship between the police department and the community one where the SHORTRIDGE: community looked at the police as being there to protect and serve the community? I guess, in a sense. Yes. HUNTLEY: But, in another sense? SHORTRIDGE: No. HUNTLEY: Can you give me some detail? SHORTRIDGE: Well, when we moved to Ensley, it was altogether different. That&#039 ; s when I met my husband. So, he was very active in different organizations and civil rights and I think his family had a confrontation with the police department back then. HUNTLEY: What kind of confrontation was that? SHORTRIDGE: Well, one of his sisters had a confrontation at a drug store there in Ensley, and I believe the whole family got involved. HUNTLEY: What actually happened? SHORTRIDGE: I believe they said the man who ran the drug store slapped her. She later moved away and that&#039 ; s when my husband became very, very active. HUNTLEY: Is that what got him involved as a result of that incident taking place? SHORTRIDGE: In a sense, yes. I think he was at Howard at the time-- HUNTLEY: He&#039 ; s a ... tell me about his educational background. Did he finish from Parker? SHORTRIDGE: No, no. He went to private schools. His whole family did. He went to Selma University and he left there and went to Howard University. He had a sister who finished Tuskegee and his brother finished Wilberforce. He had another sister. I think she finished Alabama State. She married Dr. E. J. Oliver. HUNTLEY: Oh, is that right? SHORTRIDGE: Yes. They didn&#039 ; t have any kids and I don&#039 ; t know how long they stayed together, but they are divorced now. HUNTLEY: Dr. E. J. Oliver was a legend within himself. SHORTRIDGE: Yes, in Fairfield. HUNTLEY: So, your husband, then, was he originally from Birmingham? SHORTRIDGE: He was born in Pratt City. I have a picture of the house where he was born. It was a three-room house. HUNTLEY: So then, his family was rather well off? SHORTRIDGE: Well, they were really from Montevallo. They had a lot of property there. I think they sold some of the property to Montevallo College, where the school was built. He has quite a few relatives there in Montevallo now. HUNTLEY: You became actively involved in the civil rights movement. Why? Why did you become involved? SHORTRIDGE: Well, my husband was active, and I would go with him. He made all of the arrangements for each Monday night for the meeting for the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about his involvement even prior to the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. SHORTRIDGE: Well, there was so much that he was involved in. HUNTLEY: Was he involved with the NAACP? SHORTRIDGE: He used to be president of the local branch here--the NAACP. The Masons, the American Workers, everything you could name, he was in it. HUNTLEY: So, he has been a very active person? SHORTRIDGE: Very active. He was also active with the Scottsboro boys. HUNTLEY: Are there any specific incidents that you remember that sort of stand out in your mind that took place prior to the development of the Alabama Christian Movement? Was he involved in voting rights? SHORTRIDGE: Oh yes. I think he set up two or three places. At that time, it was hard to vote and he would have classes there at his place teaching people the fundamentals of how to vote. HUNTLEY: So, he was involved in many phases of what was taking place with the movement. SHORTRIDGE: Yes, that&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: In 1956, when Alabama outlawed the NAACP from operating, what happened then? SHORTRIDGE: Well, they organized the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. Reverend Shuttlesworth called a meeting and my husband was asked to come. Reverend Shuttlesworth was president, Reverend Gardner vice president, and my husband was treasurer. They would meet every Monday night at different churches, not all the churches. HUNTLEY: Why not? Were there some churches that were--? SHORTRIDGE: Well, they were really afraid, I think. HUNTLEY: So, you attended the mass meetings on a regular basis? SHORTRIDGE: Every night, to be with him, because he needed somebody to go along with him. HUNTLEY: How would you describe a typical meeting of the movement in those early days? SHORTRIDGE: Oh, it was great. It was great, the religious side of it. You would forget about what would happen on the outside. Every night we would have a dynamic speaker and it was just... something would just go through you. I mean, I can&#039 ; t explain it. And Reverend Shuttlesworth was really the man for the job, not to be seen, not money wise. He was a dedicated man. He didn&#039 ; t worry about the money. He didn&#039 ; t worry about doing anything but making it better for everybody in Birmingham. I admire him. HUNTLEY: How were those meetings set up? When you&#039 ; d first start the meeting, what would happen? SHORTRIDGE: They would start with a prayer. The meetings got so large that they had to have two detectives come out every Monday. HUNTLEY: Two White detectives? SHORTRIDGE: Two White detectives would come out every Monday night and we didn&#039 ; t worry about nobody bombing the church because the two detectives were there and they enjoyed it also. HUNTLEY: Is that right? Why were they there? SHORTRIDGE: I guess to see what was going on. They had to take a report back to City Hall. HUNTLEY: So, they were basically there to spy on the movement? SHORTRIDGE: Absolutely. They were there to spy on the movement. HUNTLEY: Did you go to jail? SHORTRIDGE: No, I didn&#039 ; t go to jail. We got the people out of jail. We were out raising money trying to get them out of jail all times of night. We had over four thousand students and different ones in jail. We were the ones that had to go to the bonding company, my husband and I, to get these children out of jail and whoever was in jail. But we had to try to get some money, too. HUNTLEY: Where did you do most of your fund raising? SHORTRIDGE: He would write letters, go to different states to funeral directors and raise money. He would go to different organizations that he belonged to and tell them that it was necessary, that we&#039 ; ve got to have the money. It takes money to do anything, so that was his job. HUNTLEY: Did he assist in finding the attorneys that would help with the legal part of the movement? SHORTRIDGE: Yes. Well, I think Shuttlesworth had the first case and I don&#039 ; t know what happened, but something came up and most of the lawyers here turned him down, so he had to try to find lawyers from somewhere else. So, he got a lawyer from Jacksonville, Florida to come in to associate with some of the lawyers here to try to get things going again. HUNTLEY: Why did those that were here decide not to work with the movement? SHORTRIDGE: I&#039 ; m not too sure, but I think money was involved. They wanted a certain amount of money for this and that, and the organization didn&#039 ; t have it. HUNTLEY: There was a need for... they... If you had a lawyer from out of town, then there&#039 ; s a need for a local lawyer to work with that lawyer.... SHORTRIDGE: You had to get a local lawyer to participate. HUNTLEY: Was that difficult, to find someone here to assist? SHORTRIDGE: I think we finally got attorney Demetrius Newton. I&#039 ; m not too sure now, but I think he joined in with the lawyer from Florida, yes. HUNTLEY: Are there any? Were there ever any attempts to stop you and your husband from being involved with the movement? SHORTRIDGE: Well, we would get so many calls. He had. My husband had been active so long, he had gotten accustomed to being harassed and we had to park our car so many inches from the sidewalk or we&#039 ; d get a ticket. Just so many things happened. It really didn&#039 ; t bother him and he finally got a permit. They gave him a permit, but after everything had gotten so rough. HUNTLEY: What kind of permit? SHORTRIDGE: A pistol permit, because he would be out late at night. HUNTLEY: Were there threats on his life? SHORTRIDGE: Yes, many times. They called him the brains of the movement. So they would call there and say, I know this. We got letters that were written to the FBI and things like that. We never heard any more from it. HUNTLEY: Were you ever attacked--you or your husband? SHORTRIDGE: No, we were never attacked. HUNTLEY: Do you think that was because of him having..of him carrying his pistol with him? SHORTRIDGE: I think so, but they finally lifted his permit. They said, they. At the movement one night, they said his coat was up and they got a glance of his pistol and that next day they sent out and took his permit. One or two days after that, they tried to assassinate him. HUNTLEY: What happened? How did they attempt to assassinate him? SHORTRIDGE: Well, he had planned to go to a meeting that night and we asked him not to go. We had gotten so many calls that night. He said, &#039 ; Well, let me go out and lock the car up.&#039 ; He said, &#039 ; You want a ride?&#039 ; I said, &#039 ; No, the baby&#039 ; s not feeling too well,&#039 ; so I stayed home. So he decided to stay home, too. So, when he went out to lock the car up and started back in the house, he said this car passed down Nineteenth Street real slow, turned around and came back up and started shooting. He had gotten back up on the porch when they shot about three or four times and he fell below the brick wall, and the door... The front door was a French door, you know, with the glass in it, and I was sitting right there in front of that door with the baby in my lap, talking on the telephone. We heard the shots and the first shot knocked the telephone out of my hand. The baby fell to the floor and I fell to the floor. The other shot hit the mirror over the chair I was sitting in. It didn&#039 ; t break the mirror, didn&#039 ; t hit my child, didn&#039 ; t hit me and did not hit him. So, you know there&#039 ; s a God somewhere. HUNTLEY: It knocked the phone out.... SHORTRIDGE: Knocked the phone out of my hand onto the floor and I started yelling for the other part of the family to come up, and nobody got a scratch on them. HUNTLEY: Was this the only time that you were attacked? SHORTRIDGE: Yes. We called the police department. They came out and checked and said, &#039 ; We&#039 ; ll get back with you.&#039 ; We didn&#039 ; t hear any more from them. HUNTLEY: You never heard anything else? SHORTRIDGE: No. So, my husband filed a report with the FBI and we didn&#039 ; t hear any more from them. HUNTLEY: So, were there any indications that he was going to be attacked that night? SHORTRIDGE: No. HUNTLEY: Were there any calls? SHORTRIDGE: Well, we had.We would get so many calls. HUNTLEY: So, they became rather routine? SHORTRIDGE: Yes. We didn&#039 ; t think too much about it. Well, we had guards too. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about the guards. SHORTRIDGE: After the attack, the men from the movement volunteered to take shifts to come out and sit around the clock. We built a little room on the front porch for the guards to stay in, so they stayed in that room at night to try to protect us. HUNTLEY: Were they armed? SHORTRIDGE: Yes, they were armed alright. HUNTLEY: And they...they were there all night? SHORTRIDGE: All night. Some would come on around eight o&#039 ; clock and stay until around eleven o&#039 ; clock. Another shift would come around eleven o&#039 ; clock and stay until that morning. HUNTLEY: You lived on the Bush Hills? SHORTRIDGE: No. We lived on Nineteenth Street, the home house. HUNTLEY: Your home was never bombed then? SHORTRIDGE: No. It was never bombed. HUNTLEY: What about other people whose homes were bombed? Did they have the same kind of protection that you had? SHORTRIDGE: Reverend Shuttlesworth? Oh yes, sure, right... HUNTLEY: Reverend Shuttlesworth and people that lived all along... SHORTRIDGE: Right, because a lot of the guys who worked for my husband, they would help guard Reverend Shuttlesworth. HUNTLEY: So, then, there was a need, a real need, although this was a non-violent movement, there was a need for.... SHORTRIDGE: Well, they said that my husband was violent. HUNTLEY: Your husband was? SHORTRIDGE: Yes. Well, that&#039 ; s what they said about him. HUNTLEY: Well, he must have been a man, then, that...since he really never participated in the marches himself... SHORTRIDGE: No, no. Reverend Shuttlesworth made him the standby person. When he got into things, that&#039 ; s who they would call. He would be the one to see about the money and see about those who were in jail, see about lawyers and try to get those...whoever&#039 ; s in jail, try to get them out of jail. HUNTLEY: So, he was one of those that needed to be free to do his work? SHORTRIDGE: Yes. Doctor King used to call him &#039 ; the connection man.&#039 ; HUNTLEY: Why did he call him the &#039 ; connections man?&#039 ; SHORTRIDGE: Because all he had to do was just call my husband and he could connect him with anybody. HUNTLEY: How well did you know Doctor King? SHORTRIDGE: Very well. HUNTLEY: When did you first meet him? SHORTRIDGE: We used to go to Montgomery and attend all the different meetings where he would be speaking. And, you see, Doctor King was an Alpha. My husband was a diehard Alpha. HUNTLEY: An Alpha man? SHORTRIDGE: Oh, Lord, he loved it. HUNTLEY: So he and King, then, were rather close? SHORTRIDGE: Yes. A lot of the judges and things that he went to school with at Howard University, well, they were all involved in the movement. And so, he had Doctor King speak to the National Funeral Directors Association and just got them involved and they would give nice sums of money to the movement. HUNTLEY: What was your husband&#039 ; s role with the National Funeral Directors? SHORTRIDGE: Well, he was once the national president. HUNTLEY: Were they active in terms of supporting the movement? SHORTRIDGE: Very much so. They had to be. HUNTLEY: How do you mean, they had to? SHORTRIDGE: Well, he was a guy that... He believed in freedom. He tried to instill in them that you&#039 ; ve got to pay for it, and they believed in him, so they were very supportive of whatever he asked them to do. They would try to do it. HUNTLEY: When you got married, you married Mr. Shortridge... SHORTRIDGE: In [19]58. HUNTLEY: In 1958. What was the attraction? SHORTRIDGE: I don&#039 ; t know. I was about 33 or 34 years old when I got married. I was working at Booker T. Washington [Insurance Company] and had a lot of friends who had gotten married and they were having problems. I always wanted a guy who was a man, you know what I mean--who was intelligent, nice to his family, who knew how to get things done, in a sense, and is concerned about people. They called my husband a missionary, because he devoted all his time in trying to help the less fortunate people, the boys and the girls... money wise, in school and all those kinds of things. He had been doing it all his life and somebody told him that he should have been seeing after his business and that&#039 ; s what somebody told him. He said, &#039 ; You should be there, trying to see after your business instead of running around here seeing after everybody else.&#039 ; But, that was his... That&#039 ; s what he liked. As a missionary-- He went to see-- I think President Kennedy had the... I don&#039 ; t know if it was the movement or some organization... They all went up and had a conference with Bobby.4 I don&#039 ; t know if this time the girls were bombed at Sixteenth Street [Baptist Church], but they had a delegation to go there. They had asked for them to come up and he was one of those... HUNTLEY: Part of that delegation? SHORTRIDGE: Part of that delegation, ... No, when the school-- Autherine Lucy-- HUNTLEY: Was he involved in that? SHORTRIDGE: Oh, Lord, yes. Anything that went on-- Well, she used to visit us a lot, Autherine Lucy. HUNTLEY: So, your husband, then, he was several years your elder. SHORTRIDGE: Very much so, but he was a gentleman. Age didn&#039 ; t mean anything. He was the type of person I was looking for. HUNTLEY: I guess there were probably others that were sort of looking for him as well. How did you happen to...? SHORTRIDGE: Well, I was a little quiet girl working hard and I guess he... HUNTLEY: Saw something in you. SHORTRIDGE: I guess so. HUNTLEY: Your children-- You had how many children? SHORTRIDGE: I have one daughter. HUNTLEY: Your daughter, was she... Well, she was really too young to,.... SHORTRIDGE: Yes. She was about three years old when all this happened here in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: How did other family members react to your participation in the movement? SHORTRIDGE: Well, there was a lot of police brutality. They didn&#039 ; t care for my husband too much. He was on that police brutality long before, you know, up on Sherman Heights and different ones with letters in the file now where he would write letters to different ones about police brutality and this and that. He had just been a part of it for a long time. HUNTLEY: So, he precedes, then, Richard Arrington? SHORTRIDGE: Oh, yes. He&#039 ; s a jewel. HUNTLEY: You know Richard Arrington started to take on that idea of police brutality. SHORTRIDGE: That&#039 ; s why I admire Doctor Arrington. He said one thing when he got on the council. He worked on that police brutality. HUNTLEY: Did he consult with your husband? SHORTRIDGE: No, I think-- Let&#039 ; s see-- [19]64. My husband was dead when he [Arrington] really got active. But, he said one thing: If he didn&#039 ; t accomplish anything else, he was going to stop these policemen from beating up the Negroes. After he got in office and got on that council, it was kind of rough at first, but he stuck with it. They gradually started listening to what he was saying. So, the Birmingham-- What is the Birmingham Police...this organization they&#039 ; ve got? HUNTLEY: The Fraternal Order. SHORTRIDGE: Oh, they were rough. They were real rough. But, when Arrington hired...what&#039 ; s the police chief&#039 ; s name? HUNTLEY: Johnny Johnson. SHORTRIDGE: No. No. The one before him. HUNTLEY: Deutch. SHORTRIDGE: Yes, Deutch. I loved him. He had a rough way to go and he stuck with Arrington and he stopped. You name me... I bet you can&#039 ; t name over three policemen, I mean three persons, that had been beat up by a policeman after he got in office. HUNTLEY: So you&#039 ; re saying he worked closely with Arrington to see that the police force...? SHORTRIDGE: He worked with him. He had a rough way to go, and I admire him. And anytime that the Birmingham police was turned off... If the police don&#039 ; t like you, you&#039 ; re doing a good job. HUNTLEY: The Fraternal Order of Police didn&#039 ; t like you-- SHORTRIDGE: Didn&#039 ; t like... HUNTLEY: Deutch. SHORTRIDGE: No. They didn&#039 ; t care for him too much. HUNTLEY: Why? Because he was not supportive of wrongdoings? SHORTRIDGE: Yes, because he didn&#039 ; t allow any beating up of the Black men during the time he was in there. HUNTLEY: So, then, the Birmingham police had a reputation for... SHORTRIDGE: Oh, yes. They had a reputation...killing and beating them up. When Arrington got on that City Council, that was one project he really worked on. I admire him. HUNTLEY: You know, one of the first issues raised by the movement was that of there being no Black police. SHORTRIDGE: That&#039 ; s right, and that&#039 ; s when they started looking at Black policemen when the movement got started. HUNTLEY: Do you know of any of the things that were taking... I know you know of them, but things that were taking place during the first days of the movement when they were trying to integrate the buses? Are there any incidents that you remember during that time? SHORTRIDGE: I&#039 ; m trying to see. There&#039 ; s so many things that happened. My husband, they would call him if they got in jail. He would be the one that would have to go bond them out. Shuttlesworth didn&#039 ; t worry about any money, because he knew he would borrow it or do something, you know, get them out of jail, whatever needed to be done. HUNTLEY: He always led that portion of the movement, any time that there were those who were in jail-- SHORTRIDGE: That&#039 ; s, right. My husband-- Shuttlesworth, he didn&#039 ; t... Only thing he was concerned about was making it better for everybody. He didn&#039 ; t care about any money, Shuttlesworth. He was a leader. He was a preacher. You couldn&#039 ; t push him to the side. HUNTLEY: How would you...? SHORTRIDGE: My husband paid all the bills. Every month he would give the movement receipts on what was spent. He had a CPA [Certified Public Accountant] to come and do the books once a year. HUNTLEY: What about the relationship between the SCLC [Southern Christian Leadership Conference] and the Alabama Christian Movement during the times that... in 1963, when they were raising money? SHORTRIDGE: Well, at that time, I think that my husband... I think he thought that if the SCLC came in they would have the money to help get the people out of jail, but they soon got that. That wasn&#039 ; t any problem. Doctor King was the same as Shuttlesworth. They didn&#039 ; t worry about money. They knew the Good Lord would take care of it. He did. HUNTLEY: Did you ever go out with your husband to raise funds? I know he went out... SHORTRIDGE: You mean at churches? HUNTLEY: At churches and away to different cities-- SHORTRIDGE: Yes, right. HUNTLEY: Where would some of the places be? SHORTRIDGE: New York, anywhere the funeral directors would meet. They would have a spring meeting and a meeting in the summer and that was when he would write letters and let them know. And he would have it on the agenda, the funeral director&#039 ; s agenda, &#039 ; A Night for the Civil Rights Movement.&#039 ; HUNTLEY: So that was an integral part of anything that he was doing. SHORTRIDGE: Any part. The Alpha Fraternity. Nationally, he would go to all of his meetings. Everything that he belonged to. He belonged to everything you could name. HUNTLEY: Did any of your friends or relatives ever question why you were so active in the movement? SHORTRIDGE: No, because they would enjoy it too, when they got a chance to go. He had a sister that would stay there with the mother at night. But sometimes we would take her. HUNTLEY: So, the movement, then, was sort of...was what you were doing in relationship to your business. But the movement seemed to have taken up quite a bit of your time now. SHORTRIDGE: Well, we would go every Monday night and we would go everywhere trying to raise money, writing letters, to different organizations, different clubs. HUNTLEY: What would you-- If I asked you the question, &#039 ; What did the movement do for the community?&#039 ; what would be your reply? Was it a positive influence or...? SHORTRIDGE: They had a positive influence on going to vote. They encouraged people to think about the election, read about the election and they tried to educate the people to get up and go vote. If you don&#039 ; t know how-- They would have workshops, several workshops, in trying to teach people how to go vote and how to stand up and be proud of your race. Regardless of what color, you are somebody. That is what Shuttlesworth taught and this is what Doctor King taught...&#039 ; I Am Somebody.&#039 ; HUNTLEY: Were there ever any relationship with progressive Whites during this time? SHORTRIDGE: Well, they had quite a few Whites. HUNTLEY: What kind of associations did they have? Did any Whites ever come to your house, for instance, to have meetings with your husband? SHORTRIDGE: No. No. They would meet at the office, if they would. They never did come to the house. HUNTLEY: But there were associations with them? SHORTRIDGE: I think so, but I&#039 ; m not too sure. But I&#039 ; m sure it was. HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that we have not covered that would be of interest to the people who are interested in the movement? SHORTRIDGE: Oh, the time the children...when they integrated the schools-- Let&#039 ; s see. Well, my husband furnished transportation to take the kids to West End High School, and that wasn&#039 ; t an easy job to do. Two of the guys who worked at the funeral home would be the chauffeurs. Before they would get a block to the school, eggs and everything else would be thrown at them. HUNTLEY: These were men who were actually paid by your husband to chauffeur the kids back and forth to school. SHORTRIDGE: Out of his pocket, right. HUNTLEY: And this is at West End High School when they started to integrate. SHORTRIDGE: West End High School, any school. HUNTLEY: And the other schools as well? SHORTRIDGE: Yes, if they needed a ride. But he would see to them at West End and Ensley High too, I believe...if they needed a ride, because most of them needed a ride because they were afraid for them to try to walk or anything like that. HUNTLEY: Well, I know that you are planning to donate to the Institute your papers from your husband and we are really excited about that, because we know that there are a lot of things in there. Eventually we want to see something that can be used for public consumption. Some kind of publication will, hopefully, come out of that material. SHORTRIDGE: Well, they&#039 ; ve been kept. He had a scrapbook. All the clippings from the Birmingham News-- He kept a scrapbook with all those clippings and things for those who came along behind us to see it wasn&#039 ; t easy. It was just putting your life on the line. HUNTLEY: Okay. Mrs. Shortridge, I certainly appreciate your taking time out of your busy schedule. I know you are still running your funeral home and other kinds of activities. You are still involved in many things, so, again, thank you again for taking the time out, for coming out and spending the time with us this morning. SHORTRIDGE: Thanks for inviting me. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=PShortridge1995.xml PShortridge1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pinkie Shortridge Description An account of the resource Pinkie Shortridge discusses working with her husband Bill to bail demonstrators out of jail through the ACMHR. They continued their involvement with the Movement with Dr. King and the National Funeral Directors Association. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950210S Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham National Funeral Directors Association of the United States Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Southern Christian Leadership Conference Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-02-10 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/4d6c67249fd002f5659543da3fe4821c.png bbe55313835aedde5991370b736be463 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joel S. Boykin Jr. OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JBoykin2001.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Draft--United States OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 March 22, 2001 Joel S. Boykin Jr. Interviewed on March 22, 2001 20010322B 0:35:11 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) Office of Economic Opportunity Draft--United States Joel S. Boykin Jr. Horace Huntley Oral History 1:|23(9)|50(3)|81(8)|118(8)|150(10)|173(5)|195(10)|210(2)|232(15)|265(7)|285(4)|300(12)|312(10)|329(1)|352(16)|367(2)|380(13)|388(9)|405(19)|429(2)|445(5)|457(2)|463(12)|471(15)|487(1)|504(2)|517(5)|533(11)|551(5)|564(14)|581(4)|597(12)|606(7)|617(4)|649(5) 0 https://youtu.be/tsdVvOSnctw YouTube video English 0 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Dr. Joel Boykin with the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I'm Dr. Horace Huntley, today we're at the Civil Rights Institute, and today's date is March 22, 2001. I want to thank you Dr. Boykin taking the time out of your busy schedule and welcome to the institute. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 33.5161, -86.8145 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 29 Family Background Let me just start by asking you some general questions ; were you born in Birmingham? Dr. Joel Boykin goes into his family's education, where they were from, how many siblings he had, and how they came to be in Birmingham where he was born. Community gardens ; County Schools ; Dentistry--Practice ; Gardens ; Parents ; Sibling ; Teacher Alabama State University ; Bessemer (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Holly Springs (Miss.) ; Livingston (Ala.) ; Memphis (Tenn.) ; New Orleans (La.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Rust College ; Walden University (Nashville, Tenn.). Meharry Medical Department 263 Early Education- Tuggle Elementary Oh okay. Now where did you start first grade? Dr. Joel Boykin discusses his time going to Tuggle Elementary school, and how at the time they had dormitories that kids from out of town could stay in while attending. African American Schools ; Black owned ; Dormitory life Enon Ridge School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Eufaula (Ala.) ; Great Depression ; Masonic Temple ; Tuggle Elementary (Birmingham, Ala.) 389 Early Education- Parker High School So when you left Tuggle School, where did you go? Dr. Joel Boykin talks of his time going to Parker High School and how coming from a doctors son he had higher standards than the school was teaching. Illiteracy ; Literacy ; Superintendents ; Teaching Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 495 College and Military Service Did you live on Fountain Heights? Dr. Joel Boykin discusses started college at Morehouse, then being drafted, and afterwards going back to school. Draft--United States ; Military service, Voluntary--United States ; Pretty Girls Camp Lee (Va.) ; Central Tennessee College. Meharry Dental Department ; Fort Benning (Ga.) ; Fountain Heights (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Military camps--California ; Military--Florida ; Military--Guam ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; Tuskegee Institute 805 Coming Back to Birmingham and Teaching Well before yet that, what-when you left Morehouse, did you come back to Birmingham? Dr. Joel Boykin explains how when he got out of school he taught but also how people urged him to go back to get a higher education. Education, Higher--United States--Planning ; Graduate School Birmingham (Ala.) ; Bullock County (Ala.) ; Lincoln (Ala.) ; Miles Community College ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; St. Clair County (Ala.) 947 Bombing Of Father's Home in Fountain Heights Yeah, so I ended up going out to(?). After the fall I got into Meharry, got a master degree in science at Atlanta University, but I was determined I was going to get-I was through with the school system. Because there it was too many little(?) of all kinds, it's going to be this way or no way. I didn't see that as being the right way, even in Bullock county down there, it was called then, they bombed my father's house that particular year, 1950, April of '50- Dr. Joel Boykin talks about the time his father's house got bombed in Fountain Hills area of Birmingham, Alabama. Bombings--Alabama ; Newspaper reading ; Rebuilding Bullock County (Ala.) ; Fountain Hills (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Herald Printing Company ; Meharry Medical College. School of Dentistry ; Siapan, Guam 1138 Dental School Did you go into dentistry because of your father? Dr. Joel Boykin mentions about his time going to school for Denistry, and how there were more black people in the medical profession than there were in the legal profession. African American Dentist ; Black Dentist ; Black professions ; Father's Footsteps ; Med school Alabama ; Bessemer (Ala.) ; Meharry Medical College. School of Dentistry ; Tennessee 1301 Starting in the Movement When you got back here in 1957, that is in the heat of things ; what was happening when you get back? When Shuttlesworth took his children to Phillips High School. Dr. Joel Boykin talks about being a part of the movement and discussing Fred Shuttlesworth's role. African Americans--Segregation ; Meetings ; Non-violent protest 16th Street Baptist Church, Birmingham, Ala. ; Bull Connor--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham, Ala. ; Phillips High School-- Birmingham, Ala. ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1548 Participation in Demonstrations Not then, okay, did you ever participate in the demonstrations? Dr. Joel Boykin discusses his role in the demonstrations by bailing people out of jail who had gotten arrested by the police for protesting. Bail Bondsmen ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; jail ; property ; Shotguns Birmingham News ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1739 Armed Guards During Nonviolent Protest That's another question people ask about the nonviolent movement, that I've talked to people and they were always those that stood guard at the various homes and churches and were armed, did you have any knowledge of that? Dr. Joel Boykin Talks about having armed guards stand at some churches and houses due to unwanted threats from people in the community who were trying to stop their nonviolent movements. Armed Forces--Safety measures ; Non-Violent Movements Dynamite Hill ; The Ku Klux Klan 1860 Wife's Involvement in The Movement You've married, had a family- Dr. Joel Boykin explains his wife's role as a community organizer by being the director of OEO, as well as helping to start the offices of Economic Opportunity, and being head of social work. Community Organizer ; Family Involvement ; Social Worker ; Wife Office of Economic Opportunity 1973 Relationship With Martin Luther King Jr. As Martin Luther King came in and out of town, you say you would see him periodically ; did you every have any relations with-? Dr. Joel Boykin mentions his relationship with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr, by being from the same school of thought. All (Philosophy) ; Follower Ghandi ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 2080 Interview Conclusion Well you've been very helpful, I certainly appreciated you taking time out of your schedule to come and sit and talk with us and you've clarified some things for me today. Video Joel S. Boykin Jr. discusses participating in the Movement after attending Morehouse and dental school. Dr. Boykin bailed demonstrators out of jail while his wife directed the Office of Economic Opportunity. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Dr. Joel Boykin with the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I&#039 ; m Dr. Horace Huntley, today we&#039 ; re at the Civil Rights Institute, and today&#039 ; s date is March 22, 2001. I want to thank you Dr. Boykin taking the time out of your busy schedule and welcome to the institute. BOYKIN: Thank you, thank you. HUNTLEY: Let me just start by asking you some general questions ; were you born in Birmingham? BOYKIN: I was born right here in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Were you really? BOYKIN: Yes indeed, on 8th Ave, where the projects exist now, projects and I was between say, they called that Joseph St, which was actually 3rd St. And between third and second street across from Palms, there was a Palms Barbeque place--. HUNTLEY: Palms Barbeque and the theater- BOYKIN: That is correct, well the theater wasn&#039 ; t there. HUNTLEY: Wasn&#039 ; t there at that time? BOYKIN: It was industrial high school at that time and the high school house where I was born. They used to have a garden there and part of the training of the students there, they kept the garden. The garden was in our backyard. HUNTLEY: Is that right? BOYKIN: One of the superintendents, Dr. Goodson was a student at that time and he used to come down and I&#039 ; d be out there in the back yard with my little ball and whatnot and we did a garden there, it was a community garden, it was a school garden. HUNTLEY: What did you grow? BOYKIN: Everything, all vegetables, greens, tomatoes- HUNTLEY: A community garden- BOYKIN: Like that, that was part of the high school project. HUNTLEY: Is that right? Were your parents from Birmingham? BOYKIN: My father went to school here in Birmingham. In grade school, he came up here from Livingston, Alabama. He had a twin sister and they lived in Birmingham, attended Slater school. HUNTLEY: So you had deep roots here. BOYKIN: Yes, and he was in the second graduating class that is now Parker High, it was something else that I don&#039 ; t know, it wasn&#039 ; t- HUNTLEY: Industrial? BOYKIN: Probably, maybe they&#039 ; ve began it Industrial. HUNTLEY: Right, right. BOYKIN: There were two teachers there, Mrs. Kennedy and Mr. Parker, which was it. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have? BOYKIN: I had one sister. HUNTLEY: One sister, is she older? BOYKIN: Four years younger. HUNTLEY: Four(?) years younger, okay. And what kind of education did your parents have? BOYKIN: My father was a dentist, he became a dentist and he graduated in 1911, from Meharry. HUNTLEY: From Meharry? BOYKIN: Matter of fact we initially- Walden University. Got his license in 1912. HUNTLEY: Is that right? BOYKIN: Yes. HUNTLEY: So you followed in his footsteps? BOYKIN: Yes, certainly so. HUNTLEY: Well that&#039 ; s great, what about your mother? BOYKIN: She was a graduate of Rust College in Mississippi, Holly Springs, and Mississippi, that&#039 ; s near the Tennessee border, about 20 miles from Memphis- HUNTLEY: Right- BOYKIN: Yeah, they have two colleges there, Rust and MI, my grandfather moved there from New Orleans to Mississippi because he had four girls. Had to get them an education- HUNTLEY: Is that right? BOYKIN: On the main drag, everybody had to pass by the house going to the school, all the teachers and stuff and they were walking or riding mules and stuff like so- HUNTLEY: Is that right? BOYKIN: Yeah. HUNTLEY: Yeah, well- BOYKIN: And she finished in &#039 ; 24. HUNTLEY: In &#039 ; 24? BOYKIN: Yes and also attended Alabama State too­ HUNTLEY: So did she teach? BOYKIN: She taught here, she retired from the County School System. HUNTLEY: What school did she teach? BOYKIN: Woodard was the last- HUNTLEY: Okay, down towards Bessemer. BOYKIN: That&#039 ; s right, that&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Good school. BOYKIN: So she retired from there. HUNTLEY: Oh okay. Now where did you start first grade? BOYKIN: I started first grade at Tuggle, Enon Ridge at that time, it was called Enon Ridge School. HUNTLEY: Enon Ridge School. BOYKIN: Enon Ridge School and it only went to the sixth grade at that time. But while there they added two more grades, eight grade. HUNTLEY: Yeah, now I&#039 ; ve heard a lot about Tuggle School, what do you remember about Tuggle the most? BOYKIN: Carrie A. Tuggle founded Tuggle School, black-owned, Mrs. Simpleton, Mrs. Bethune, so she had that thing going in there, dormitory life, when I first went to Tuggle, Enon Ridge there was students there. HUNTLEY: Is that right? BOYKIN: The band was playing. HUNTLEY: You mean they had dormitories? BOYKIN: Dormitories, that&#039 ; s right, it was Tuggle Institute­ HUNTLEY: So students would come in from outside of town? BOYKIN: Yes, they lived there. Whether they were local or what­ HUNTLEY: But they were boarded right there on campus- BOYKIN: Football teams, I would say about-we lived in the Tuggle home shortly after she passed. Soon as the Depression hit, my parents had to- we moved around quite a bit, he lost his house and so we did quite a bit moving. One of the moves were in the Tuggle home, home in Enon Ridge, I guess I must have been about four or five years old. HUNTLEY: So those Depression days, not only affect those at the bottom rungs, it affected professionals as well? BOYKIN: Everybody, everybody couldn&#039 ; t pay, so that- he was in the Masonic Temple for years until he couldn&#039 ; t hold on so he went on down to Eufaula, Alabama. HUNTLEY: So he actually moved to practice in Eufaula? BOYKIN: That&#039 ; s correct, that&#039 ; s correct. HUNTLEY: So when you left Tuggle School, where did you go? BOYKIN: Parker. I went to Parker, at that time when we were living on Ave, we walked to Parker every morning. HUNTLEY: What was Parker like? BOYKIN: Parker was fantastic. It was- . HUNTLEY: What made it- ? BOYKIN: The teachers ; people had a lot more interest then. Coming from being Dr. Boykin&#039 ; s son, I guess sometimes they expected more from you and I could read, write and most of the kids- half of the class couldn&#039 ; t read or write. Even then, it was the system you had to pass this child right on regardless- to make room for someone else because we don&#039 ; t have funds to take care of that kind of thing. That was what I later found out after I taught for a while (?) years but unfortunately wouldn&#039 ; t give us any primitive jobs here. I hated at that time because I think of the people who in charge, I&#039 ; m talking about, county superintendents, Dr. Hayes and a guy I think they call him-. HUNTLEY: E. Paul Jones? BOYKIN: I think- he was the county man. HUNTLEY: Right. BOYKIN: He lives on the same street that I live on. HUNTLEY: Okay. BOYKIN: They wouldn&#039 ; t hire us, but anybody, Dr. Harris and the other fellow, Benny Harris, Jesse Ray Harris was the nephew. HUNTLEY: Did you live on Fountain Heights? BOYKIN: Yes. HUNTLEY: You lived in Fountain Heights? BOYKIN: Yes, at that time, certainly so. By that time, I had gone in the service and out. I had been at Morehouse A couple year and was drafted out of there and- HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to go to Morehouse? BOYKIN: All of buddies were going over there practically, I really thought more of going to Tuskegee that was a big school. It sounded great to me you know the name sounded good. I didn&#039 ; t know one thing nor from school from another, but you followed your game, the boys went over there and luckily I made the right decision. HUNTLEY: So you went to Morehouse and then you were actually drafted out of Morehouse? BOYKIN: Yeah. HUNTLEY: Is that right? BOYKIN: Yeah. HUNTLEY: And how long did you spend in the service? BOYKIN: About 18-19 months- HUNTLEY: --Where--? BOYKIN: --Went in in&#039 ; 45 and- . HUNTLEY: --Where-- ? BOYKIN: Fort Benning, Camp Lee, down in Florida, out to California and in the Pacific, Sampan, Guam-. HUNTLEY: Was the war about over by the time you- ? BOYKIN: Just about over yeah, time I got over there, they dropped the bomb, they dropped (?), so there was nothing there but prisons at that time, some were still up in the mountains, but- HUNTLEY: What was that transition like from college to the military? BOYKIN: It was awful, I didn&#039 ; t want to be there, I didn&#039 ; t want to shoot at anyone, and I didn&#039 ; t want anybody shooting at me. HUNTLEY: I understand that. BOYKIN: I really didn&#039 ; t want to go, did everything I could to avoid it, until finally one of the ladies over at the-- . HUNTLEY: Recruiting station- ? BOYKIN: Recruiting station, she said, &#039 ; &#039 ; Now, if you move again, we&#039 ; re going to put you in jail.&quot ; So, it&#039 ; s the matter of jail or going into the service. HUNTLEY: So you spent those 18 months and then what did you do after? BOYKIN: Well I got out in say November of &#039 ; 46 and I went back to school in January &#039 ; 47 and summer school and I finished in &#039 ; 48 and came out on time. The man upstairs was in my comer. HUNTLEY: Oh yeah. BOYKIN: Because that was the most difficult situation I believe I ever encountered, it was all on account of me, I didn&#039 ; t want to read, I wanted to be out there in the streets doing this and doing that, but I got behind, it was rough getting out. But fortunately there are so many wonderful students over there. Those guys have some excellent minds. All you&#039 ; re surrounded by them and it was almost impossible not to get out because everybody-Bob was in the class. HUNTLEY: You were in a class with (?)? BOYKIN: Yeah, he finished with me, but I started before him­ HUNTLEY: Did you know him personally? BOYKIN: I met him when he was a freshman, because he came in the restaurant with one of the prettiest girls I have ever seen. The little restaurant, we ate something... where everybody hung out, he and another one of my classmates lived in the city and is name was Caleb, he brought them all to school in his car and that&#039 ; s how I met Margaret. &quot ; Move over!&quot ; (Both laugh) I never--other than that, I was a sophomore, he was a freshman big time, by the time I came back and he was a senior, a junior or something, but I was tied up in getting with my thing, so but, guess they knew us better than we knew them. You know you all the upperclassmen. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right, that&#039 ; s right. BOYKIN: So I didn&#039 ; t really see him again until I was up in Meharry, this was after the bus sit-in, on the speaking engagement and whatnot and as soon as I walked down to the greeting, &quot ; Hey Joe&quot ; (both laugh). I would see him from time to time when he was here all the time, but not knowing that they were so good, until the last day of the-everything was breaking loose. HUNTLEY: Well before yet that, what- when you left Morehouse, did you come back to Birmingham? BOYKIN: When I left Morehouse, yes, I came back to Birmingham, that was the summer of &#039 ; 48- HUNTLEY: And what did you do, did you--? BOYKIN: And summer &#039 ; 48, I was told that, Joe is you want to get a job, you must go back to school. I say, wait a minute, I&#039 ; m already educated, what are you talking about, I&#039 ; ve got a BS degree from Morehouse and you&#039 ; re telling me I gotta go back to school, yeah and we did a bunch of us, Dr. Montgomery, Dr. Harris, all of us had to go out to Miles that summer to take some education, taking all this to teach. So that&#039 ; s what happened there- HUNTLEY: So you went out to Miles that summer- BOYKIN: That summer- HUNTLEY: And then you started teaching that fall? BOYKIN: That fall, yeah. HUNTLEY: Where did you first work? BOYKIN: Supply teaching down at Parker, Lincoln, wherever they would call. HUNTLEY: How did you like that, to teach? BOYKIN: That was- I needed the money (both laugh). Any kind of job. HUNTLEY: Right. BOYKIN: So as far as having been carried away with it, not really, until I got a regular job, Bob Johnson, who was a principal down at Parker that time, he got me a job in St. Clair county, I was there for about three or four months, it must have been &#039 ; 49, the spring session of &#039 ; 49. HUNTLEY: So how long did you teach? BOYKIN: I stayed there until the next spring session and couldn&#039 ; t get a regular job teaching until &#039 ; 50, the beginning of 1950 and that was down in Bullock County and I stayed there for a semester and things happened then and said, &#039 ; &#039 ; No, this won&#039 ; t do.&quot ; So it was at that time, I was going to be the boss. I&#039 ; m going back to get a PhD, some kind of D ; you couldn&#039 ; t give me little bit more control- HUNTLEY: Over your life- BOYKIN: Yeah, so I ended up going out to(?). After the fall I got into Meharry, got a master&#039 ; s degree in science at Atlanta University, but I was determined I was going to get- I was through with the school system. Because there it was too many little(?) of all kinds, it&#039 ; s going to be this way or no way. I didn&#039 ; t see that as being the right way, even in Bullock county down there, it was called then, they bombed my father&#039 ; s house that particular year, 1950, April of &#039 ; 50- HUNTLEY: Here? BOYKIN: Here, in Fountain Heights, he was in there, I wrote him a letter, the newspaper people were asking were we wanting to rebuild it, because we have a hard time getting insurance. So I wrote, if I can fight over there in Siapan, Guam, yeah we can do it right here too. And they put it on the front page of the paper, the Post Herald at that time and this superintendent sent for me, took me out of class, said the genius supervisor who was a black lady Jessie Oliver down, to pick me up by taking me out of the school room and bring me way downtown to the city, to his office, to answer to this- on the front page of the--and I thought- I didn&#039 ; t know why she said letter initially and I said, &quot ; She&#039 ; s been reading my mail.&quot ; I didn&#039 ; t know and then she threw the paper in my lap and I read, I say, &quot ; Well I&#039 ; ll be doggone.&quot ; I prepared to say bye bye, but I told them, I said, &quot ; Boykin, you know didn&#039 ; t mean what you said about this.&quot ; I&#039 ; ve enjoyed this ; I&#039 ; ve really enjoyed working with you in this school system.&quot ; &quot ; I think you&#039 ; re doing an excellent job.&quot ; I said, &quot ; But in regards to that letter, I meant everything I said.&quot ; &quot ; And I&#039 ; m sure you feel the same way if someone was trying to do something to you on the sly.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; The people downtown wanted to ask about this mess, I just want you to be careful.&quot ; In fact, they sent... before the year was that summer, asked me to come back and be principal of the school. HUNTLEY: Is that right, so you were actually prepared to say, it&#039 ; s yours, it created a problem for you. BOYKIN: That&#039 ; s right- HUNTLEY: But that didn&#039 ; t happen. BOYKIN: But I didn&#039 ; t go back in. I went on to school because it&#039 ; s too much of a hassle. HUNTLEY: Did you go into dentistry because of your father? BOYKIN: Yeah, I was going to dental school, med school, I didn&#039 ; t make any difference which one. HUNTLEY: And I&#039 ; m sure he encouraged you? BOYKIN: Well naturally, I wasn&#039 ; t going to stop, he didn&#039 ; t have to do much encouraging for me, and I couldn&#039 ; t stand the little jobs that I had, grocery boy, waiting tables, all of that, working at railway express, all kinds of little odd jobs. HUNTLEY: So you spent the four years at Meharry and then- ? BOYKIN: Then I interned a year, stayed up there a little longer, interned a year, because I knew I was corning back, it was some things that I wanted to do and I didn&#039 ; t want to necessarily sent everything to somebody else when I doing another year and get a little bit more into it. HUNTLEY: So did you join your father when you came--? BOYKIN: No, I went directly to the private practice. HUNTLEY: How many black dentists were there in town? BOYKIN: At that time, Dr. Elliot, Dr. James (?), Dr. (?)­ HUNTLEY: Jefferson? BOYKIN: Jefferson, Dr. Howard, Mixon, Claiborn, Shakespeare, Thompson, and Dr. Dowdell, Dr. Davis out in Bessemer, that was about it. HUNTLEY: And that was in &#039 ; 54-&#039 ; 55? BOYKIN: That was &#039 ; 57. HUNTLEY: &#039 ; 57, okay. So unlike the legal profession, in the medical profession, there were several black professions. BOYKIN: The legal profession, there was so few that whenever we have our affairs, we invited them to participate with us, because there were a few more physicians, but so many affairs, we combined and do it together. On several occasions, we&#039 ; d say, there are few of us, that time we had conventions in the state and practically every physicians in the state, in the state of Alabama, Tennessee--. HUNTLEY: When you got back here in 1957, that is in the heat of things ; what was happening when you get back? When Shuttlesworth took his children to Phillips High School. BOYKIN: It was active, nobody wanted to be--but Fred had his own ideas about how this thing should be done and Fred proved me right. See a lot of people my daddy&#039 ; s age, that group, Agee, even Emory O. Emory O was as bad as anybody that I&#039 ; ve ever seen when it came to confronting segregation. Talking about it like it was, made Bull Connor blow his top. Some of the responses that bull would come out with-to be associated with Fred was like--didn&#039 ; t have any problems with Fred because I had an attitude anyway, I&#039 ; m ready, put it- but I think you have to be really called into that kind of thing, to be that dedicated, to look death square in the face, like, that what he was facing every time. He&#039 ; s been called, the man upstairs- this is your job Fred, this is it and he didn&#039 ; t shirk away from it, but you have to be calm for something like that to go ahead and fight somebody with no weapon and that was not my calling because I would in fact start shooting whatever, I&#039 ; ve got to defend me, but they- no defense, turn the other cheek. I would tell him, I said, &quot ; Somebody&#039 ; s got to do.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Did you ever attend any of the meetings? BOYKIN: Oh yes, oh yes. HUNTLEY: How would you describe a mass meeting, what was a mass meeting like? BOYKIN: There were energy-filled services and whatnot, we&#039 ; re already complaining about buses, this, we&#039 ; re spending our money and we don&#039 ; t get this and but I was saying they brought those things to get the--that was constantly in front, but how are we gonna move out from under where we are. These are our rights, we&#039 ; re human, we&#039 ; re going to do this and we&#039 ; re going to do that, just want to take this thing. The mass meeting started at a time when everybody was just about tired and just ready to die, whatever it takes and there were a lot of people that kept bringing the crowds began to increase. But there are a lot of people who said, no there&#039 ; s no point, people with the church there. I said, &quot ; Listen, we&#039 ; re fighting this thing the wrong way.&quot ; But there was no other way, we tried, every time we said it, they put it off, and they would go back to the same kind of tactics- HUNTLEY: Even people at 16th street in opposition to Fred- BOYKIN: Oh yeah, stopping and going down there and whatnot, I wouldn&#039 ; t a church member there other than me. HUNTLEY: You remember 16th street? BOYKIN: The deacon right, now? Not then. HUNTLEY: Not then, okay, did you ever participate in the demonstrations? BOYKIN: Demonstrations, yeah, yeah, demonstrations, into the point that, not out marching because we were, I&#039 ; ve talked with Wyatt Walker, after running into him, Gaston was (?) brother Ha (?), said &quot ; Wyatt, what can I do?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m ready to go to jail you know.&quot ; He said, &quot ; No, that wouldn&#039 ; t help us like this so to tell you what you do, we need you all to stay back here to take care of us.&quot ; &quot ; If we get hit in the head, shot up, whatever it is, so you get us out of jail, he said, &quot ; Well I tell you what, can you get them together, because the newspaper here, the Birmingham News trying to show that we&#039 ; re not in accord with Fred, we support Shores-.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Talking about the profession? BOYKIN: Yeah, we support Shores and Gaston or something like that, that was not true, it was not true. HUNTLEY: So in other words they were attempting to divide­ BOYKIN: The news crew, the media was terrible- HUNTLEY: But that was not true- BOYKIN: That was not true, he said, &quot ; Rev, it&#039 ; s not your, this is not mine 10:00 in the morning, he says, &quot ; I tell what you do, if you can get them together&quot ; I said, &quot ; Okay, come out to my office, this evening.&quot ; He say, &quot ; 3:00.&quot ; Surprised, I got off the phone and got every physician, every dentist showed up at my office. That day they came together and we talked we closed up property and we made wide declarations of support and concern which is published in the paper, I took it down to the Birmingham News and they thought that they were going to able edit and do what they want, we say, no we want this just like it is. And it cost me about $500. And put up bonds, money- HUNTLEY: So this is to get people out of jail? BOYKIN: Out of jail, that&#039 ; s right, property bond. HUNTLEY: Did anybody lose his or her property as a result of-? BOYKIN: No. HUNTLEY: See there was always would be a concern. BOYKIN: Because someone else came up with some more money, maybe, as always that always is a concern, but you can see, if we would do that, it&#039 ; s time to die. So that was the professional support we had- so whether it was evident to us or not. There were whole lots of them- we were riding around in cars with shotguns. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s another question people ask about the nonviolent movement, that I&#039 ; ve talked to people and they were always those that stood guard at the various homes and churches and were armed, did you have any knowledge of that? BOYKIN: Yeah, yes, you couldn&#039 ; t believe it, I&#039 ; m sitting on my own porch with a shotgun, we were riding around in the car with shotgun, there were no knowledge of it and things happen that a lot of us don&#039 ; t know about that- when somebody reported things when these people began to attack and they were met with force. HUNTLEY: There were times- BOYKIN: Yes and at least one, I don&#039 ; t know how many, center street for that matter. There were people coming into- the Klan coming into the communities don&#039 ; t do this and that, I&#039 ; m not sure that all of them got out. HUNTLEY: But that- took place, see that&#039 ; s what I wanted to mention because--whole story. BOYKIN: Afraid and all that kind of-. no, no. HUNTLEY: So you actually know firsthand that that took place­ BOYKIN: Yes sir. HUNTLEY: On dynamite hill, but here that kind of information is so important we only get half of the story and in order to the whole story, you have to have those stories. And other folk like yourself who were there on the scene and knowledgeable. Are there any other things that took place during the time that you like to share with us before we conclude? BOYKIN: I don&#039 ; t know. HUNTLEY: You&#039 ; ve married, had a family- BOYKIN: Yes, yes, oh yeah, my first wife, she can give you a lot of information, but you got to go down and see her, she&#039 ; s(?). She was the director of the OEO period, had just started offices of economics of opportunity and she was head of the social work, community and people, which was community organization. So she helped these people sit up and do things that they didn&#039 ; t know how to do. HUNTLEY: So she&#039 ; s an organizer? BOYKIN: Oh yeah, very much so, very much so. HUNTLEY: So did she help during that time? BOYKIN: She set up that whole office, she was the second director. That time I think she was making a big salary at that time about $19,000 or $20,000 a year, which was big amount at that time. The average- maybe teachers, principals, she John was the director and she was second and about a year later, she moved onto something else used to work for her, Charles. She was real in that kind of thing because (?) Washington would come and ask her for something and she&#039 ; d know what to do. HUNTLEY: As Martin Luther King came in and out of town, you say you would see him periodically ; did you every have any relations with- ?BOYKIN: Yes- HUNTLEY: As a result of your being one of the leaders in the professional area? BOYKIN: Oh the last time I actually talked to Martin, he was getting ready to go upstairs I said, &quot ; What&#039 ; s happening now, good gracious.&quot ; I say, &quot ; It&#039 ; s going on.&quot ; He says, &quot ; Joey, you&#039 ; re right.&quot ; He says, &quot ; Right now I got to follow the people......follower.&quot ; HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s interesting, that&#039 ; s really interesting- BOYKIN: Following, you got that right, all these kids up here. And I am talking-but he was busy and I know what he&#039 ; s doing and he knows what I&#039 ; m doing we came from the same school. I hear buck bennet talks, every time I hear Martin I thought I was listening to Dr. Mayes. HUNTLEY: Yeah, yeah, same thing. BOYKIN: Repeating the same thing, he could talk the talk, this Gandhi philosophy all this kind of thing. I couldn&#039 ; t done all of that and they preached all these wonderful sermons, we had to listen to so we- HUNTLEY: What you call it, buck? BOYKIN: Buck Benny. HUNTLEY: Buck Benny? BOYKIN: Yeah buck Benny, we called him buck Benny. HUNTLEY: Well you&#039 ; ve been very helpful, I certainly appreciated you taking time out of your schedule to come and sit and talk with us and you&#039 ; ve clarified some things for me today. BOYKIN: Okay. HUNTLEY: It was very interesting. BOYKIN: If can be of any assistance, a lot of things I probably forgot-. HUNTLEY: Well all- there may sometimes when we can. get together and sit down again. BOYKIN: Right. I think you can come over my house sometimes. HUNTLEY: Okay I&#039 ; d love to, alright, thank you. BOYKIN: Give you some more. HUNTLEY: Okay. BOYKIN: Okay. HUNTLEY: Appreciate it very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JBoykin2001.xml JBoykin2001.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Joel S. Boykin Jr. Description An account of the resource Joel S. Boykin Jr. discusses participating in the Movement after attending Morehouse and dental school. Dr. Boykin bailed demonstrators out of jail while his wife directed the Office of Economic Opportunity. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 20010322B Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) Office of Economic Opportunity Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2001-03-22 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/c99ece6e806587d5f032ae3052224990.png 1115646a0d4c120fbac463348ed806e3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Nims E. Gay OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=NGay1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. WJLD OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 April 6, 1995 Nims E. Gay Interviewed on April 6, 1995 19950406G 0:51:11 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 The National Association for the Advancement of Color People WJLD Nims E. Gay Horace Huntley Video 1:|1(2)|19(6)|48(8)|71(2)|88(6)|106(4)|124(9)|137(9)|156(15)|169(6)|187(7)|211(7)|227(11)|240(11)|258(14)|275(7)|296(13)|312(3)|332(6)|362(7)|379(8)|394(12)|407(15)|427(5)|447(14)|463(2)|479(2)|498(14)|508(11)|529(2)|550(13)|576(14)|594(11)|611(13)|629(4)|643(1)|656(1)|673(9)|689(8)|702(12)|715(11)|734(4)|750(10)|772(1)|786(10)|800(5)|820(2)|835(9)|849(4)|866(11) 0 https://youtu.be/oE-KsmkuSG4 YouTube video English 66 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mr. Nims E. Gay for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College, April 6, 1995. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 33.5161, -86.8145 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute 33.4810, -86.9089 17 Miles College https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 99 Family Background Good. Let me just start by asking a couple of background questions. I want to ask you about your parents. What part of the state were your parents from? Nims E. Gay talks about where his parents were born, when they came to Birmingham to start a family, and what line of work they were involved in. Agriculture ; Family ; Higher Education ; Housewife Anniston (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Calhoun County (Ala.) ; Choccolocco (Ala.) ; Cleveland (Ohio) ; Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company ; Pharoh's Foundry ; Tuskegee Institute 232 Early Education Okay. Tell me a little about your education. What elementary school did you attend? Nims E. Gay talks about going to elementary school, then 2 different high schools in the Birmingham area. African American schools Jenny Hills Elementary (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 275 Working to go to School at Age 13 Well, why didn't you graduate? Nims E. Gay explains about how he had to have help from the community and an extra job in order to put himself through high school early on. Child labor ; Community ; Financial crises ; Living alone Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Country Club ; Cleveland (Ohio) ; Greenwood (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Stockham Pipe &amp ; Fittings Co. 383 Working At WJLD Okay. What did you do after high school? Nims E. Gay talks about his job at the radio station, then switching from there to working for L &amp ; N Railroad because it paid more a week. African Americans--Marriage ; America--Race relations ; Bakery ; Prejudices ; radio announcer ; railroad ; WJLD Bessemer (Ala.) ; Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company 545 Work At L &amp ; N Railroad Okay. So what did you do at L &amp ; N Railroad. Nims E. Gay explains his time working at L &amp ; N Railroad and having to go down to Ozark, Alabama to help work on the cars for the wars. Car Mechanics ; Coal Engines ; Diesel Engines ; German Prison ; Manual Labor ; Steam engines ; War Boyes (Ala.) ; Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company ; Ozark (Ala.) 673 Community Background Okay. What community did you live in at the time? Nims E. Gay describes his community and the working opportunities they had with various industries in Birmingham. African Americans--Segregation ; Blacks--Segregation ; Community ; Domestic Work ; Firemen Greenwood (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Inglenook (Birmingham, Ala.) ; McWane, Inc. ; Standard Iron and Metal Company (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Stockham Pipe &amp ; Fittings Co. 754 Community's Relationship With Birmingham Police Department What was your community's relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? Nims E. Gay discusses how his communities relationship with the Birmingham Police Department was more of a threat rather than a security. Bootlegging ; Community Threats ; Gambling ; Prostitution ; Racial Slurs Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 861 Recreation in the Community That's very interesting. What kind of recreation did you have in your community? Nims E. Gay talks about how they would go down to Stockham Park to play baseball, but how the black baseball team didn't have lights on their field until he went down to the Birmingham City Hall to ask for it. Corn Field ; Steet Lights ; Youth league baseball--Coaching American Cast Iron Pipe Company ; Birmingham (Ala.)--Maps ; Birmingham City Hall ; Ensley (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Jabo Waggoner (Alabama State Senator) ; Stockham Park (Birmingham, Ala.) 1016 Communist Party Influence Were there any type of organizations in your community at that time? Nims E Gay talks about underline influence of the Communist Party in organizations around Birmingham. Mill workers ; Presidential Elections ; Smelter workers Birmingham (Ala.) ; Communist Party of America ; Ku Klux Klan ; Scottsboro Trial, Scottsboro, Ala., 1931 ; Steel Workers Organizing Committee (U.S.) ; The International Union of Mine ; United Mine Workers of America ; Vanderbilt Furnace 1189 The Civil Rights Movement- NAACP and ACMHR Nims E. Gay discusses the NAACP, how they were outlawed from Alabama, then Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth coming in with the Alabama Christian Movement to help bring people back together in the Movement, along with his experience of registering to vote. Outlaw ; Voter registration--United States Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Henry, Patrick ; History of the civil rights movement ; Paul Revere ; Robert Durr ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; The National Association for the Advancement of Color People 1457 Alabama Christian Movement Involvement What was your role in the Movement? Nims E. Gay explains his role as Director of Music for the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Director of Music Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights 1515 Musical Background What was your background in music that you were the director at that time? Nims E. Gay talks about his time gaining musical training and working around different groups in Birmingham, such as famous people like Dorthy Love Coates and Sam Cooke. African American gospel singers ; Choir ; Musical notes ; Singing A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Birmingham News ; Birmingham(Ala.) ; Blevins, William, 1895- ; Cooke, Sam ; Dorthy Love Coates ; Evergreen Bottom ; Gay Harmoniers ; Gospel Harmonettes (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Howard, Mildred ; Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company ; Odessa Edwards ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Singing 40s ; Wenonah High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; William Blevins 1751 Meetings at Alabama Christian Movement Tell me about the mass meetings of the Movement. Nims E. Gay explains going to the meetings at the Alabama Christian Movement and having police come to hear in on their business. Churches ; Police Presence 46th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1835 Family Involvement in Marches Did you participate in any of the demonstrations? Nims E. Gay talked about being involved in demonstrations and marches with his family in Birmingham, Alabama. Family ; Jail ; Protest movements--United States ; Water Hoses Birmingham (Ala.) ; Fair Park (Birmingham, Ala.) 1942 Involvement of 46th Street Baptist Church What church were you a member of? Nims E. Gay discusses his time being the Minister of Music at the 46th Street Baptist Church. Bible Class ; Bomb threats ; Chairman of Board ; Choir ; Church ; Minister of Music 2017 Helping Out the Freedom Riders Do you remember anything that stand out in your mind as related to the Movement that you may have been involved in that you saw happen during the Movement? Nims E. Gay Explains how he helped the Freedom Riders out of Anniston when they got attacked, and brought them to shelter at Fred Shuttlesworth's home. Blacks ; Bus Burning ; Jesus Christ--Presence ; Police ; Smoke Bombs ; Whites Anniston (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Bull Connor--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Collegeville (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Pell City (Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 2170 The Power of Prayer in Demonstrations During the demonstrations -- well actually between 1960 and 1963. In 1961 the Freedom Rides. I believe in 1962 you had the Selective Buying Campaign in downtown. Can you tell me anything about that? Nims E. Gay talks about how the power of pray helped spare some of those being attacked by hoses and dogs brought onto them by the police. Children ; Fire Hoses ; Firemen ; God (Christianity)--Omnipresence ; Jail ; Police dogs ; Praying in the presence of-- ; Water Hoses 16th Street (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Bull Connor--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) ; New Pilgrim Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 2268 Benefits from Movement Well, after all of this, what benefits you think your family, the community realized as a result of the Movement? Nims E. Gay explains how he was the first Black manager at Bluecross Blueshield of Alabama due to the effects of the Movement. Black Managers ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Tax Accessor Bluecross Blueshield of Alabama ; Civil rights movement ; Jefferson County Courthouse (Birmingham, Ala.) 2536 Arrest and Injury of His Children in the Movement You said two of your children went to jail? How long did they stay in jail? Nims E. Gay discusses the times his kids went to jail and his son being sprayed by the fire hoses. Children ; Community ; Fire Hoses ; Jail ; Police brutality--United States ; Self-control ; Water Hoses George Washington Carver High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; James Bevill 2663 Change of Movement Over Time How do you think the Movement has changed over time? Nims E. Gay explains how some young people are educating themselves but about how young people have it made and it takes more than just throwing jewelry around your neck to create something more. African American young adults ; Generational accounting ; Strength in Numbers 2751 People Who Guarded the Homes Do you ever remember any of the people who were associated with those that guarded the various homes? Nims E. Gay talks about the time John Lewis had to combat a bomb neing thrown at Bethel Baptist Church. Bomb threats ; Bombs ; Mass Meetings Bethel Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Lewis, John R. 2818 Loss of Strength in People Is there anything else you would like to add that we really hadn't dealt with today? Nims E. Gay discusses the need for all people to still come together to fight against White people creating blockades for people of color. Community Strength ; Gospel ; Inferiority complex ; Radio ; Unity ; White Privilege Civil War ; WAYE 2942 Pacification Programs There is one other think that I wanted to ask you. You mentioned that L &amp ; N supported gospel singing. Did you say that? Nims E. Gay explains how industries around Birmingham created programs for African Americans in order to keep them happy and silence their issues, this was known as the Pacification Program. African American gospel singers ; African American Programs ; African American Recreation ; Choir ; Industrial ; Pacifying American Cast Iron Pipe Company ; Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company ; Stockham Pipe &amp ; Fittings Co. 3022 Conclusion of Interview Well, Mr. Gay, I certainly appreciate you taking the time out today Oral History Nims E. Gay discusses his whole family's involvement in the Movement. Gay and his children attended meetings and demonstrations that included his children being hit with water hoses and arrested. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mr. Nims E. Gay for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College, April 6, 1995. Mr. Gay, I want to thank you for coming out and spending your time with us this afternoon to talk with us about civil rights and Birmingham because we know that you were very prominent in the Movement. Again, thank you for coming out. GAY: It&#039 ; s a pleasure to be here, Dr. Huntley. HUNTLEY: Good. Let me just start by asking a couple of background questions. I want to ask you about your parents. What part of the state were your parents from? GAY: Well, my parents were born in Chocolata, Alabama. That&#039 ; s in Calhoun County. HUNTLEY: Calhoun County. That&#039 ; s near Anniston? GAY: That&#039 ; s right up from Anniston. HUNTLEY: Okay. Were you born in Birmingham? GAY: I was born in Chocolata but they brought me away at the age of one. HUNTLEY: Okay. So Birmingham, then, is basically home. GAY: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: I am sure that you have gone back and forth between here and Chocolata quite a bit? GAY: Oh, yes. Quite a bit. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have? GAY: It was -- I had one brother and one sister. My oldest brother is deceased but, my sister is still living. She lives in Cleveland, Ohio. HUNTLEY: Are you younger or older than your sister? GAY: I was the youngest one. HUNTLEY: Oh, you&#039 ; re the baby of the bunch. So they must have spoiled you then. GAY: No. They didn&#039 ; t take time for that. HUNTLEY: Didn&#039 ; t take time. What about your parents. Tell me a little about your parents -- your mother and father. What about their education and their occupations? GAY: Well, my mother, she was a housewife. My father -- he attended Tuskegee but coming off the farm and looking at big words, when he got to Tuskegee, he saw the word agricultural up there and he thought that is what he wanted to do. But after he found out was farming, he decided that wasn&#039 ; t for him. So he came on to Birmingham and became a brakeman on the Louisville National Railroad. And, then, he brought his family to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: So he then was a brakeman and that is what he retired as -- a brakeman on the railroad? GAY: No. When he retired -- when they laid off so many here in Birmingham, he migrated to Cleveland, Ohio and he became an employee of Pharaoh&#039 ; s Foundry there. And after -- when he became of retirement age then he came back to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Okay. Tell me a little about your education. What elementary school did you attend? GAY: I attend Hills in East Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Hills in East Birmingham. And, after that? GAY: After that -- I say we were the first to enter Ullman High School. Because you see at that time you only had Parker and when the Blacks were able to go to another school, which was Ullman, and Ullman we could only go there until the 10th. Then, at the 10th grade we would have to go over to Parker. So, then after I -- in the 10th grade I went on over to Parker and I stayed at Parker like two months before graduating from there. HUNTLEY: Well, why didn&#039 ; t you graduate? GAY: Due to the fact that was beyond my control. I was financially unable to do so because from 13 years on up I put myself through school anyway. HUNTLEY: Okay. So, you were working? GAY: I had three men who was instrumental in helping me go to school because at 13 turning 14, they encouraged me to go on to school if I wished to go. West Scruggs, Johnny Norris and the man called (?), they said &quot ; we will give you fifty cents a day if you go on and complete your education.&quot ; So they were instrumental in helping me to do so. HUNTLEY: Who were you living with at that time? GAY: I was living by myself because my mother took sick and she had to go to Cleveland where my daddy was and so I was left in the house because I didn&#039 ; t want to leave Birmingham. HUNTLEY: So, at 13 years old you were living alone -- GAY: Living alone and then my aunt eventually came over to stay with me. But, what I was doing -- I would go out to the Birmingham Country Club and caddie on the weekends and afternoons. That way I was able to keep a place to stay and then they would send me money back to help pay the rent. The rent at that time wasn&#039 ; t too much. At that time you could get any kind of old house for $6.00 a month rent. So, back in those days, things were cheap. HUNTLEY: So you weren&#039 ; t paying $500.00 a month to live? GAY: No. $500.00 a month would have bought the place. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in? GAY: I lived in Greenwood, East Birmingham area. That was out there right at Stockham Pipe and Fittings. HUNTLEY: Okay. What did you do after high school? GAY: After high school -- my first job after school that was WJLD. I was the first announcer they had over there and that was 52 years ago. Then, after I left WJLD, I wasn&#039 ; t making enough money there. The radio was paying $17 a week and the railroad was paying $25 and my wife having children, you know where I decided to go -- I went to the railroad. HUNTLEY: Well, tell me a little bit about WJLD. What did you do there? GAY: At WJLD see -- you&#039 ; re coming into the stations then Bob Umbach was the chief engineer and what you said then to Bob was he did some of everything there. By me coming in he told me, he said, &quot ; well you have the voice of radio.&quot ; So what he started me doing...coming in bringing on the best(?) and all those different (?) and all was there and he had me doing it so frequently, I said, &quot ; now wait a minute what kind of money do I get?&quot ; He said, &quot ; well I give you ten dollars.&quot ; I said, &quot ; no, I can&#039 ; t do that.&quot ; So they raised it to $17 a week and then I stayed there for three and a half months. And, then, I had to leave there because the station was in Bessemer over the court house at that time. And things were prejudiced then as you could find it to be. Jeff Bryant owned the station and they didn&#039 ; t want a Black man to even wear a tie at that time. (?) told me, he said, &quot ; you on radio, you gonna wear a tie?&quot ; &quot ; We cut --,&quot ; they used the word nigger -- &quot ; we cut their ties off they wear it here.&quot ; I said, &quot ; yeah and I am going to cut yours off too.&quot ; He said, &quot ; well, now wait a minute, I thought you was a Christian?&quot ; I said, &quot ; So was Peter, but he cut the man&#039 ; s ear off with Christ standing there.&quot ; HUNTLEY: So you made sure that you got respect from the very beginning? GAY: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: How old were you when you got married? GAY: Nineteen. HUNTLEY: Nineteen. You were then working at WJLD. GAY: No. When I got married, I started there at 19. When I got married, I went to the Louisville National Railroad. So I left out of WJLD -- well, let me see, I was working at a bakery, too when I was trying to work at WJLD because actually that wasn&#039 ; t a desire that I wanted to have. I wanted to do something that I believe could help me to progress in life. HUNTLEY: Okay. So what did you do at L &amp ; N Railroad. GAY: I started first as a helper. That was bringing those engines from Boyes, Alabama to downtown. And we would have what you called a round table down there. You would put that engine on that table and you do labor to turn it around. So what we would do, we would carry it down there and then they decided they wanted to send me downtown. I was a coach cleaner down there. There was a towel they give us. But what we were really doing, we were fueling up those diesel engines. It come out from coal engines to diesel then. And we would have to ice up those cars and, then, after that I went into -- well the war broke out and you had troop men. So they deferred me there to stay there and work as -- helping prepare the cars for the soldiers to go backwards and forward to Ozark, Alabama because that&#039 ; s where the German prison was stationed here -- in Ozark, Alabama when they would bring them over here. HUNTLEY: So you then -- they would bring the engines in and you would work in the shop in preparation of the -- GAY: That&#039 ; s what I would do when I was a helper, I prepared them, coal them up and everything. And, then, after that when I got downtown I didn&#039 ; t have to do that. All we would do when the troop trains would come in bringing in the soldiers, bringing in the prisoners and bringing whatever was going to Ozark, Alabama where they had all the German prisoners stationed, then my job was to see that the coaches were serviced and all. HUNTLEY: What do you mean by &quot ; coaling them up?&quot ; GAY: When I say &quot ; coaling them up,&quot ; that is when you had those old steam engines, you would run the engine up under a shot. And that shoot would let the coal come down and fill up the hopper back there. That is where the fireman would get the coal and all that the -- to fire the boiler up where (?). HUNTLEY: Okay. What community did you live in at the time? GAY: I was in the Greenwood, East Birmingham area. HUNTLEY: So you still live in the same area? GAY: Yes. HUNTLEY: How would you describe your community? GAY: During that time Greenwood, in Inglenook, was just separate. That&#039 ; s why it was called Greenwood and Inglenook was called Inglenook. Because on the one side of the track was Black -- that&#039 ; s where the Blacks lived. And on the other side of the track was where the Whites was living. HUNTLEY: Okay. What were the occupations of the people that lived in your community? In Greenwood. GAY: Most of the occupations for them -- if they hadn&#039 ; t been -- they thought was a blessing when you was a railroad man like my daddy was a fireman or something like that. But most of it was domestic work. They mostly would go out and work for the -- the ladies would work in these different White peoples homes. And, the men, they would work around Stockham, McWane and Vanderbilt furnaces and different places like that. HUNTLEY: Did your wife work outside of the home? GAY: No. She never worked. HUNTLEY: Okay. How many children did you have? GAY: We had eight children but my oldest son got drowned when he was seven years old. HUNTLEY: What was your community&#039 ; s relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? GAY: Now the Birmingham Police Department relation to -- the police was just about like insurance men. If you had a shot house or gambling place then, he would just drive through there and you would pay him off ; or either a prostitute house -- you just pay him off and that was it. Because some of the prominent men you have now in high positions, they used go to collect money just like a policy agent from different people who was -- if they was bootlegging, running a gambling house or had those Saturday night fish fries and all of that. See home brew was bad then. But now, people have beer. But back then they made their own home brews, they called it. HUNTLEY: But that was illegal so the people had to --- GAY: It was illegal so all they was doing -- they was just dressing their pocket and didn&#039 ; t care which way. And see that&#039 ; s why we used to say back in those days when the police would come into our communities -- when you see that sign &quot ; MUN?&quot ; We used to say that &quot ; MUN&quot ; meant &quot ; Murder You Niggers&quot ; that&#039 ; s what we felt that it was. We had -- you couldn&#039 ; t have no respect for a person who didn&#039 ; t have any respect for themselves. HUNTLEY: So you didn&#039 ; t look at a police then as being protectors and servers of your community? GAY: No. I looked at them as being more an enemy of the community. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s very interesting. What kind of recreation did you have in your community? GAY: Well, what we would do. Stockham Park was there. That is where we mostly go to play ball and various things out there. And, then, when we wasn&#039 ; t at Stockham there was a big old corn field in our community where the boys and girls would go out there and play. But what we was trying to do, and by me managing the girls ball club and all and the boys ball club, we couldn&#039 ; t play under the lights. And we would see the White people playing under the lights down on 10th Avenue. So, I went down to City Hall and talked to Mr. Wagner. I said, &quot ; Mr. Wagner, don&#039 ; t you realize that --&quot ; the park then for the white people was on 10th Avenue and 35th Street where the trucking company is now. I said &quot ; you know playing out there in a... They had Black folks and you got some good White folks, good Black folks like me who ain&#039 ; t going to throw over in there. But some of them might get the idea that since they -- that y&#039 ; all come out here and play and they see y&#039 ; all come on, drive in and out, and we can&#039 ; t play under the lights.&quot ; So then they decided to let us play under the lights. We were the first community that played under the lights. They would come from Ensley and everywhere over there to play under the lights because they began to let us play. HUNTLEY: Were there special days that you had? GAY: Friday and Saturday nights were our days. HUNTLEY: And every Friday and Saturday night, Black people from all over Birmingham would come over there to play? GAY: They would come over there. The teams we would have set up. Because some of the girls played for our teams they would become a part of East Birmingham in order to get a chance to play under the lights. I had some girls out of Ensley who played with my girls clubs. And, so we become united and other churches and clubs would come over to play us -- from ACIPICO and all those different places. Well, they got a chance to come over there and play under the lights which we though was something very interesting at that time. HUNTLEY: Well, when you went down to talk with Wagner, was that Jabo Wagner? GAY: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Did you just do that on your own or was that an organizational thing? GAY: No. I did that on my own. Just whatever I thought that I ought to do. Just like when I went in radio. I just decided. I would say, &quot ; now look, if somebody gonna do it...&quot ; I was always taught if you want to do something, try to do it yourself, not try to send nobody else. HUNTLEY: Were there any type of organizations in your community at that time? GAY: No kind of organizations we had at that time. The only thing that you had at that time was the communist party. The communist party was trying to come in and take over and get the Black people to cover and be with them. The Ku Klux Klan, you know, they were already raging. So, but our parents would tell us all the time, say, now, &quot ; you know what&#039 ; s over here, but you don&#039 ; t know what&#039 ; s over there in the communist countries.&quot ; So, they would tell us not to sell out because the communist people who would come over, they would try to get us -- At one time my father and different places he was working around, different men who was playing at plants, they would come to me and they would tell you, they&#039 ; d say &quot ; now, what you got to do is help blow these places up.&quot ; But, the Black people would not go for it. HUNTLEY: So the communist were attempting to -- GAY: Overthrow the -- HUNTLEY: -- to overthrow the government? GAY: That&#039 ; s right. And telling us what communist was and how good it was for us and everything. But, in the end they wanted to really control America, the way I could see it. HUNTLEY: Were the communist then, involved with any of the labor organizations? GAY: Well some of them they was, undercover. But, see the main thing where the communist really began to get a hold over here was that Scottsboro case. When the Scottsboro boys -- when they took them off those trains and pretend that they raped those white women and so forth and then that give them a chance to get a better view of what was going on. HUNTLEY: During 1930 or so, Birmingham became sort of the regional -- the southern regional headquarters for the communist party and they then went from Birmingham to many of the organized -- you know, the SWOC was starting to organize, the steel workers, United Mine Workers, the International Union of Mine, Mill and Smelter workers, all those were organizing and evidently the communist were good organizers. GAY: They were because Mr. Hall that you read so much about, he stayed at my uncle&#039 ; s house so many times. When he&#039 ; d come, he would come there. HUNTLEY: Was this the -- what&#039 ; s his first name. I can&#039 ; t think of his first name. But anyway, this is the &quot ; Hall&quot ; that ran for president for the communist ticket? GAY: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: And he stayed with your uncle? GAY: Uh-huh. HUNTLEY: Was your uncle involved with the communist at all? GAY: He said he wasn&#039 ; t, but I thought he was. HUNTLEY: But he was a worker though -- GAY: That&#039 ; s right, he was a worker. HUNTLEY: And, therefore, they usually related very closely to workers. GAY: He was working at the Vanderbilt Furnace which later was torn down. HUNTLEY: This of course, was a -- we&#039 ; re talking about the 30s and 40s. What&#039 ; s happening in civil rights at that time? GAY: The only thing that was happening in civil rights at that time, you was -- a regular started the NAACP talking about the NAACP, The National Association of the Advancement of Colored People, and that was something that we felt that was giving us a chance to really move out. So many people that work for these different white organizations and all, they say &quot ; well, if you work for that, you can&#039 ; t work for me.&quot ; In other words, they always tried to hold you down through some kind of money terrifying you -- where you couldn&#039 ; t make it -- that they figured. HUNTLEY: Were you a member of the NAACP? GAY: Yes I was. HUNTLEY: You know in 1956 -- GAY: That was back there when Robert Durr was -- Robert Durr was over it at that time and then later on Patton and all of them come along. HUNTLEY: Right. Well in 1956 the State of Alabama outlawed the operation of the NAACP. GAY: And when they outlawed it that&#039 ; s when Rev. Shuttles worth came in with the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. That&#039 ; s when we got a chance to start. But the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was because they wanted to outlaw it and Shuttles worth wasn&#039 ; t going to hear that. And, when, Dr. Patton and them was telling them what was happening and talking about they outlawed it, he said &quot ; hell, we with y&#039 ; all.&quot ; That was true in our day, so that&#039 ; s why the Alabama Christian Movement was started. HUNTLEY: It was started to fill this void that would have been left by the NAACP? GAY: That&#039 ; s right. And what we had -- we had a lot of people at that time. They didn&#039 ; t know exactly which way to start because see, during that time, right after that, we was trying to start us a voters drive. At that time, W. L. Williams come over and helped us people give credit to somebody else who didn&#039 ; t in East Birmingham. W. L. Williams come on and help us to get the voters rights set up among the people over there where they could become qualified voters. Because when I become a voter, you know, you had to pay a poll tax at that time. And, they had different ways to try to keep you from becoming .. HUNTLEY: Well, when you went in to register to vote, what happened? GAY: Well, when I first went in, they told me, say, &quot ; boy, you know, what you want to vote for?&quot ; I said, &quot ; because where I&#039 ; d have a right to protect my taxation without representation. That&#039 ; s what I feel that I&#039 ; m having but at least I can vote what has happened.&quot ; And they say, &quot ; you don&#039 ; t do it like that.&quot ; So one thing about that -- I knew they told me how many questions they were going to ask me. So, you had to be able to talk to them so when they was talking to me, I said, &quot ; I tell you what.&quot ; I say, &quot ; well I know, I want to ask you a question, because I know smart White folks like you know it.&quot ; So I told them, I say, &quot ; I here about Paul Revere and the midnight riders and all of that and I hear about the British was coming.&quot ; I said, &quot ; would you mind telling me a little something about that. I heard where they said where Patrick Henry said (?). I said &quot ; were White folks ever a slave?&quot ; He said &quot ; I ain&#039 ; t got time to talk to you, go on, you pass.&quot ; HUNTLEY: So that&#039 ; s the way you got your .. GAY: That&#039 ; s the way I got in there. HUNTLEY: Was that the first time that you had gone? GAY: First time. And, me and my wife went back the next week. HUNTLEY: Did she pass? GAY: Didn&#039 ; t have no problem. HUNTLEY: Was that right? What year was that, do you remember? GAY: I can&#039 ; t tell you exactly what year, but... HUNTLEY: Was this in the 1950s? GAY: That&#039 ; s right. In the 1950s close to the &#039 ; 60. HUNTLEY: As Movement is starting to develop? GAY: Develop into what we knew that we wanted to do. HUNTLEY: What was your role in the Movement? GAY: Well, in the Movement was started, all of us was trying -- wanting to do something but, by me working with music as much as I had, then (?) Brown and I, we were first directors of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. And, then, Bernard Sneed and Carlton Reese came on the scene and we always wanted to be able to have the best qualified person for the job. That&#039 ; s what we trained to do in the beginning of the civil rights movement. Let the man who could do the job, do it, and we would be followers. So that&#039 ; s how Carlton took over as director of the Movement choir. But, in the beginning, it was Nathaniel Lee and Johnny L. Frazier and Mrs. (?), the musicians. And Mamie Brown and myself was the director. HUNTLEY: What was your background in music that you were the director at that time? GAY: Well, Dr. Henry over at Parker had turned around and taught us the Negro spirituals and music as it was supposed to be. And, then, I went with Streeter and he taught us whole notes -- that&#039 ; s was note singing and all of that. And, so, the rest of it just was a gift from God. HUNTLEY: Did you sing with any of the gospel choirs? GAY: Well, during that -- after singing with Parker High School Choir, then we went with the Singing 40s at the L&amp ; N Railroad. You see, all these places wanted to keep Black folks satisfied and so we were singing under Dr. Whetstone. Now, after Dr. Whetstone we went -- we started singing around with Arthur Love out at Evergreen Bottom and after the Gospel Harmonettes was organized and we were all listening to their style which they adopted from the original (?) Singers. We all began to understand -- we formed the Gay Harmoniers then. And, people thought we were so good they wanted us to go somewhere. But we wouldn&#039 ; t follow no where -- Sam Cooke and all of them used to come and sit down and tell me &quot ; man, you can do this and you can do that.&quot ; But it was not my desire to move so we stayed right here in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: So you had the Gay Harmonettes? GAY: We were the Harmoniers. In fact, we sung together for about 29 years. HUNTLEY: Just around in Birmingham? GAY: We would go out of town in various places, Birmingham, Andulsia and various places, Tennessee or somewhere like that. But we never wanted to migrate any further because according to what they would say we could do and everybody seemed to appreciate the style of music that we were doing. Because some of this music we were doing, national groups started recording it, but we never took, undertook to the ... HUNTLEY: So you knew Sam Cooke? GAY: Yeah. I knew Sam down at Gaston Motel and talked to Sam when he was gospel before he went into secular music. HUNTLEY: So, your group then, was sort of in the forefront? GAY: Of the Movement? No. HUNTLEY: Of the development of gospel music. GAY: Yeah. We -- the original Gospel Harmonettes was the first and Dorothy Love Coates came on the scene later. And, now, the first people that was attracted in Birmingham was William Blevins. William Blevins, he was the first Black that ever sung on radio in Birmingham. He would come up and he would, although he was working for the Birmingham News, see WSGN was a News H. Herald station at that time. But all Black folks had to go up on the freight elevator. Even then, people everywhere were listening to them. And, then, the Gospel Harmonettes with Odessa Edwards and Mildred Howard and all of those became the Gospel Harmonettes because they had Vera, Odessa, Willie Mae and they were the original Gospel Harmonettes. But, then, Dorothy Love Coates joined them and they become a power house. Went all the world and everywhere singing, but all of them -- they all come back home. All of them living here. They never left the city. HUNTLEY: Odessa Edwards was a teacher of mine out at Wenonah High School. GAY: She was something else. She was really fireball and a speaker. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the mass meetings of the Movement. GAY: We would meet every Monday night and we couldn&#039 ; t hardly wait for Monday night to come. And, when, something would happen, we got where we have to call meetings in the middle of the week. But the churches, you couldn&#039 ; t get in them. You didn&#039 ; t have -- and some of them churches wouldn&#039 ; t accept you. In my community the 46th Street Baptist Church where I was a member was the only one would let you meet over there. So you still had a lot of &quot ; Nervous Nillies&quot ; and &quot ; Uncle Toms.&quot ; HUNTLEY: So, then, the mass meetings were accepted in some churches and other churches they were not accepted? GAY: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: How would you describe a typical meeting? GAY: A typical meeting would be very hyped up. Because when Dr. Rev. Shuttles worth would come in and speak and they were speaking the facts. And anytime you are telling the truth, the people have to accept it. And, then, of course, you had the police would come in and sit in the back of the meetings but that didn&#039 ; t scare nobody because.. HUNTLEY: Why were they there? GAY: They were there to try to find out what was going on, where they could go back and carry reports back to city hall. But, that didn&#039 ; t mean nothing. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of the demonstrations? GAY: No. But, I would go to a lot of the marches -- I was in a lot of the marches downtown and all of that stuff. And, I was able to watch them.... HUNTLEY: Did you ever go to jail? Were you ever arrested? GAY: No. I never was arrested because, I don&#039 ; t know. Well, a lot of times when they said let&#039 ; s go, and I&#039 ; ll be the first stand up in there, they never did put me on the line, I didn&#039 ; t know why. But, eventually I found out why later on. But, my two children, my son, my oldest son, Cardell, I would stand there when they washed him down the street with a hose. And my daughter, both of them were in jail. they went down there to Fair Park at the same time where they kept them, you know. HUNTLEY: So you had two children to go to jail as a result of demonstrating? GAY: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Were they school age at the time? GAY: That&#039 ; s right. They were. HUNTLEY: Did they leave school? GAY: That&#039 ; s right. They left school. Because, see, one thing about it, what they would do, they would just leave school anyway. Because a lot of the teachers who are afraid, they didn&#039 ; t want to let the children out. But, the children would leave anyway. HUNTLEY: Did you encourage your children to get involved? GAY: That&#039 ; s right. I told them &quot ; a scared person never won nothing.&quot ; HUNTLEY: How did other members of your family react to you and your children being involved? GAY: Everybody was in accord with it. My daddy, when he came here, he said, &quot ; I didn&#039 ; t go back to Cleveland, because he said, &quot ; down there getting on them buses--going to get everybody killed.&quot ; But, then, eventually, he come around to understand what it was all about. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of? GAY: 46th Street Baptist Church where I&#039 ; m a member now. HUNTLEY: What was the level of involvement of your pastor and your church at the time? GAY: Well, the church, as we come along, as the choirs and all would come up, I was a minister of music working with the choirs. And, in later years I became, as now, Chairman of the Board, but I think they should have a younger chairman because -- what you need to do is lay a foundation for somebody else to come along. And, I teach the adult - the men&#039 ; s bible class there now. HUNTLEY: So, your church then was actually opening the doors for the Movement? GAY: That&#039 ; s right. Rev. Hester was the pastor at that time. He said, of course we had a Chairman of the Board who didn&#039 ; t want to meet. So. Rev. Hester say &quot ; they gonna blow our church up.&quot ; Rev. Hester say, &quot ; well it just be blown up.&quot ; So that was all it was. HUNTLEY: So there was some dissension within the church? GAY: Oh, yeah. About one or two, that&#039 ; s all. Everybody else was in accord. HUNTLEY: Do you remember anything that stand out in your mind as related to the Movement that you may have been involved in that you saw happen during the Movement? GAY: Well, when they burned the buses at Anniston, Rudolph Bailey and myself we were one of the first to get up there and Joe Hendricks and I don&#039 ; t know who was in the car with Joe. But, somebody came on and we all came to Anniston where they had the Freedom Riders. And, when, we got up there, the police, the highway patrolmen say now &quot ; we can&#039 ; t go on the highway with you, but we will take you here in the city.&quot ; And they wanted to know how to -- who was going to take-- He had some -- we had got some protectors to carry us. Because they didn&#039 ; t know we was talking about the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That&#039 ; s who we was talking about. And, so, Joe Hendricks, put them on the floor of his car. HUNTLEY: These are the Freedom Riders? GAY: The Freedom Riders and Bailey and myself, we went on in one car ahead of them and they come right behind us. But, if they had of been thinking, all they had to do, you had to go through Pell City, all they had to do was block that road and we couldn&#039 ; t have gotten through. HUNTLEY: Where did you take the Freedom Riders after you got them back to Birmingham? GAY: They brought them on down to Rev. Shuttles worth. Bull Conner was ahead of him. But when he got to the church there, say &quot ; Rev. we got them in.&quot ; But the only reason he didn&#039 ; t stop us was because they had foresight to go down 50th Street. Down by--and then come on over in Collegeville where the church was. And, they had on way to catch them then. When they caught up with them, they was already there. And Bull come, told Rev. he was watching for them for to protect them. But that wasn&#039 ; t the idea, but they just got by them. And, then, of course, it&#039 ; s all right now. But, Brother Hendricks carried them over to his house. That&#039 ; s where they stayed. But during that time, you had to be very careful what you let anybody know. Because you had people come to sessions just for that. HUNTLEY: Were these both Black and white Freedom Riders that you picked up? GAY: Oh, yes. They were both Black and White. They had quite a few White in there. And, when they got through with those smoke bombs they threw in there, they were about as Black as we were, but they were White. HUNTLEY: During the demonstrations -- well actually between 1960 and 1963. In 1961 the Freedom Rides. I believe in 1962 you had the Selective Buying Campaign in downtown. Can you tell me anything about that? GAY: You see, during that time when they was trying to keep, you know, from going on and buying anything--they tried everything they could even, you know, when they put the fire hoses on you and sic the dogs on you. Out there on 6th Avenue when the firemen turned the hoses on it and Bull was telling them to turn the hose on them, we prayed and Billups was sitting down there praying. And, only God kept that water from coming. The firemen were trembling more so than we were because the water would not come out of those hoses although they turned them on. And, then, when we got through praying and went back across the street, the water come everywhere. Now why the water didn&#039 ; t run, I don&#039 ; t know. It had to be someone bigger than you and I to . HUNTLEY: This was as a result of the children marching out of 16th Street into the park? GAY: We left out of from New Pilgrim Baptist Church and went over across down there in the park on 6th Avenue to have a mass prayer on account of they were putting children in jail and discriminating against us in every way. And, we knew the power of prayer because if it hadn&#039 ; t been the power the power of prayer, a lot of us wouldn&#039 ; t have made it. HUNTLEY: Well, after all of this, what benefits you think your family, the community realized as a result of the Movement? GAY: Now realizing after the results of the Movement, there is some negative and there some positive. The positive things is for me for instance. After I got through demonstrating, when -- being one of the first Black managers in Blue Cross was because of the Movement that we got an opportunity for those jobs. Although we began to see, like my daughter now, she&#039 ; s one of the tax assessors at the Jefferson County Courthouse. She wouldn&#039 ; t have had the opportunity if it had it not been for the Movement stepping out. You see, some people say well, it would have been anyway. Yeah, God intended to it, but he didn&#039 ; t intend for you to get off and do something yourself. So that is the way -- that has actually happened and a lot of positions that we have, that we can do, we at least -- you get a chance to meet the man on equal basis. HUNTLEY: So, were you one of the first managers for Blue Cross Blue Shield? One of the first Black managers? GAY: Yeah. I was one of the first after we had about two come in there for a token and then what they wanted me to do was when they really, in a way, had to make me a manager because they -- Mr. Chamblin what had put the inserters into Blue Cross and you understand, he was just showing me how you do it, but they didn&#039 ; t have no intention of a Black man running it. HUNTLEY: What are the inserters? GAY: That&#039 ; s where you put -- they call it -- they inserts your rate changes and also insert your checks or whatever has to go out in the envelope. You have four to five stations there. In one you put a card, the other you put a letter and the other one you might enclose a check and the end of it, an envelope opens up and it automatically puts it in there, then you run it on through and it&#039 ; s stamped. It&#039 ; s ready to go. And, so, by me being able to -- they first couldn&#039 ; t find nobody to run it because the White fellow who was supposed to run it, he messed up and wasn&#039 ; t able to run it and they had to get a rate change out, which was a 100,000 policy holders, because Blue Cross had most of holders in Alabama. So, what they did, he come and ask me could I do it. Mr. Gentry saying &quot ; he didn&#039 ; t know nobody who could do it.&quot ; He said, &quot ; you know it?. I said &quot ; no.&quot ; He said &quot ; well, I guess we gonna to lose it, Mr. (?) wasn&#039 ; t there.&quot ; Mr. Singer, one of the presidents come in and I said &quot ; I could do it.&quot ; He said I was playing with him, but I wasn&#039 ; t playing with him, I could do it. And, so, he had me to do it and I was able to run 95% of the letters without even having a hang-up. Then he wanted me to do it. I said &quot ; no, I will not do that, not for the same salary that you are paying me.&quot ; So what they decided they would do then, they make me a &quot ; Spec 10.&quot ; They would rather make me a specialist rather than make me a manager. HUNTLEY: What year, approximately was that? GAY: Oh, that was approximately, I reckon I worked as a specialist from about &#039 ; 69 until about &#039 ; 80. HUNTLEY: So this, in fact, is as result of the Movement. GAY: Then, after -- see all of that helped me along because then they didn&#039 ; t find out that I was active as I was until it was too late. HUNTLEY: Do you think that if they had know that you were active would you have had a job? GAY: Really, seriously, I don&#039 ; t believe that I would have. Because the thing about it, always being able to meet a person with a smile and treat them like you want them to treat you. That helped me to be able to meet a man and meet him on his same basis and didn&#039 ; t hate him for the things that I knew that he had done that was detrimental to my welfare. But, so, anyway, they thought, I guess I was one of the good old boys. HUNTLEY: You said two of your children went to jail? How long did they stay in jail? GAY: They stayed in there four days. One of them stayed five. HUNTLEY: And you actually saw your son hit with the water hoses. What was that like, seeing your son? GAY: You know, that is the time you have to really control yourself. Because it wouldn&#039 ; t have been nothing to run up beside those firemen and policemen&#039 ; s heads. I figured we could have won that battle with violence. But, see there&#039 ; s a hereafter that tomorrow you have to start with the same thing. HUNTLEY: So you had to have a lot of self-control to see your child hit with the water? GAY: More so than ever, then. HUNTLEY: Was that the hardest thing for you to do during the movement? GAY: That was one of the hardest things to accept. Although bringing, sometimes getting the children out of these different schools, Carver and all of them and bringing them over there, where they can get in the demonstration, that wasn&#039 ; t no problem. We just do that anyway because James Bevill needed help. But one thing about it, the communities were more together then. You didn&#039 ; t find many -- you find more people I feel, today, afraid of their jobs and their welfare than you found people back then. HUNTLEY: You found more today that are afraid of their jobs? GAY: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Afraid of losing their jobs than you did at that time? GAY: That&#039 ; s right. That&#039 ; s my opinion because you go into so many establishments and things where people are trying to do something and what do you find? You find us selling each other out just for a position or what they think is a position of monetary values. When I feel that each and every one, if you got something, that if you are right, stand on right and reach out and touch somebody&#039 ; s life and that same touch will come back to you. HUNTLEY: How do you think the Movement has changed over time? GAY: It&#039 ; s changed because it don&#039 ; t have the strength or the will power or the people. Anything you have, the people has to be a part of it. There is strength in numbers. And so many of our young people today, they think they got it made. All they want to do, a lot of them, now we have a lot of young people who is trying to educate their head and sanctify the house but you find so many that&#039 ; s not. You find so many young people they think because they can ride around in loud cars and all of that stuff and put a piece of jewelry around their neck that that&#039 ; s the answer. And, the parent, in my opinion, the reason the children is not doing no more than they are, is because the parent who came along in my day and afterwards, they are trying to relive the life that they didn&#039 ; t live. And, see, anytime you don&#039 ; t live a decent life in front of a child, the child is not going to live a decent life in front of nobody else. Because I, people ask me, a lot of times, &quot ; how come your children never been in any trouble.&quot ; I say, &quot ; they are not my children in the first place, they&#039 ; re God&#039 ; s.&quot ; And when you let them know that and let them know that he&#039 ; s the only one that can do anything for you and don&#039 ; t let them run you, then you will be successful in keeping them from doing what they should have done. No, don&#039 ; t get yourself the credit, because it&#039 ; s not you. HUNTLEY: Do you ever remember any of the people who were associated with those that guarded the various homes? GAY: Yeah. John L. Lewis he was right there when they blowed -- he was one of the ones throwed the bomb from up against Bethel Baptist Church when it was blown up there. Colonel Stone was there but those guys were the ones who throwed it away and this other guy, he was there. His name won&#039 ; t come to me right now and me and him meet each other all the time. HUNTLEY: But you are familiar with those guys who were... GAY: Yeah. Most all of them because I was at every meeting. HUNTLEY: You were at every mass meeting? GAY: Every mass meeting. HUNTLEY: Never missed a Monday night? GAY: Didn&#039 ; t miss a Monday night. Looked forward to the Monday nights and was trying to do what can we do to help the cause. HUNTLEY: Is there anything else you would like to add that we really hadn&#039 ; t dealt with today? GAY: The only thing that I would add that we haven&#039 ; t dealt with today, is now we know what the problem is now let&#039 ; s do something about it. You know, we need to eliminate the problem. The problem now is we have lost strength as people, I won&#039 ; t say Black people, as people whole, we have lost strength. We need to come together and progress as America should and stop trying to fight the civil war all over again. HUNTLEY: What do you mean by &quot ; stop trying to fight the civil war over?&quot ; GAY: All right. When I was saying about fighting the civil war all over again, you got the White man still trying to push you back because he feel you are inferior to him and you know that you&#039 ; re not and you retaliate by doing something that is detrimental to you and him. And, that way, nobody is doing anything. In fact, we are holding each other down in America. Everything you see now, that&#039 ; s why it&#039 ; s going out of the country and going to other people because we have become greedy and I think that we have an ego crutch. HUNTLEY: An ego crutch? GAY: That&#039 ; s what I feel as I go about from day to day and see so many people in so many things and sometimes now being -- doing this old time gospel at WAYE radio, say I do that on the weekend from 5:00 - 8:00 because we have turned around and we have let everything that we have -- we trying to let the Negro spirituals go. We trying to let the folk songs go. We are throwing everything away even when you used to come to colleges, you know you was going to find the history of music there. You don&#039 ; t find it anymore. HUNTLEY: There is one other think that I wanted to ask you. You mentioned that L &amp ; N supported gospel singing. Did you say that? GAY: They had a choir -- they had a mens choir with W. W. Whetstone directing it. Rev. (?) all of us was a part of that group. And that was -- the plant -- they supported that. HUNTLEY: Did other businesses, other plants have choirs as well? GAY: ACIPICO had one and I don&#039 ; t know whether Stockham had...yes Stockham did have one. Because, you see, that was giving different activities for you to do to keep you satisfied see. The White man thought then that if you was in church, you was good. If you was singing spirituals you weren&#039 ; t going to do him harm. But see... HUNTLEY: So you are saying that&#039 ; s part of the pacification program? GAY: They were just putting a pacifier in your mouth like you put a pacifier in a baby&#039 ; s mouth. GAY: So, they sponsored singing groups and they sponsored baseball teams? GAY: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: And this is all part of that program that you feel is part of the pacification program? GAY: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Well, Mr. Gay, I certainly appreciate you taking the time out today. GAY: It was a blessing to be able to come out Dr. Huntley and maybe one day we will be able to see a brighter day ahead. I know it&#039 ; s a brighter day ahead, but the main thing, where can we grab on and stop this riding because we can&#039 ; t (?) HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. I appreciate you taking the time. GAY: All right. Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=NGay1995.xml NGay1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Nims E. Gay Description An account of the resource Nims E. Gay discusses his whole family's involvement in the Movement. Gay and his children attended meetings and demonstrations that included his children being hit with water hoses and arrested. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950406G Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 The National Association for the Advancement of Color People Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-04-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/fe81d4f941b1b0e0f8b074af805c6f94.png 110c55144c8b74793894a70a5bd0c42e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Samuel Greenwood OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=SGreenwood2000.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Ku Klux Klan OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 November 14, 2000 Samuel Greenwood Interviewed on November 14, 2000 20001114G 0:45:43 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Chicago (Ill.) World War II Communist movement Gary (Ind.) Ku Klux Klan Samuel Greenwood Horace Huntley Video 1:|32(1)|49(8)|62(4)|86(4)|104(13)|122(2)|144(6)|161(5)|185(14)|201(3)|210(3)|221(14)|238(2)|249(5)|265(4)|278(16)|300(17)|318(8)|330(6)|344(11)|357(9)|372(11)|394(6)|411(6)|426(10)|443(3)|456(9)|470(2)|493(12)|513(11)|529(2)|546(13)|560(14)|574(7)|583(7)|594(4)|605(11)|624(8)|638(5)|654(4)|675(7)|688(14)|702(6)|727(11)|752(9) 0 https://youtu.be/mWY_3WiddvQ YouTube video English 0 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Mr. Samuel Greenwood for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I'm Dr. Horace Huntley. We're presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute ; today is November 14, 2000. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 20 Background and Family Life Were you born in Birmingham? Greenwood discusses where he was born and his family life. Chicago (Ill.) ; Columbus (Ga.) Birmingham (Ala.) 81 Memories of Police Brutality Those were some tough times and that period, of course, in 1919 in Birmingham, they had a force called 'Lynching Bs' where they actually lynched Black folks and there would be a festive occasion, so, I'm sure there were tough times. Greenwood recalls personal memories of when he saw or experienced police brutality. Ku Klux Klan ; Lynching Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States 270 Educational Journey Where did you start first grade? Greenwood tells where he went to elementary school and high school. Cameron Elementary School ; Titusville All-black school ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Racism in education--United States 439 Moving Around Between Family Members So, you were 21 years old at that time? What did you do between that times ; did you go to work? Greenwood discussed moving around between family members and how his education in the South did not prepare him for education in the North. Chicago (Ill.) ; Connecticut ; New York (N.Y.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Class Differences 616 Family Members' Involvement in the Communist Movement This period again, the 30s, 40s ; in particular places like New York, Chicago, there were the Communist Movement was ripe. Were you ever involved or know anyone who was involved in any of those areas? Greenwood tells how his family members were involved in the communist movement and he saw how the communist fought for equal rights. Chicago (Ill.) ; Father Devine Communist movement ; Communist parties 890 Transition from Birmingham to New York and Chicago What was the transition like for you leaving Birmingham, a small Southern city to the megapolis of New York? Greenwood recalls how the differences between living in the South and the North. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Chicago (Ill.) ; New York (NY) ; Race riots--Illinois Police brutality--United States 1047 Personal Military Experiences What was that [military] experience like? Greenwood discusses how there were racial disparities in the American military. Airplanes, Military--Germany ; Fighter pilot ; Mistreatment Racial discrimination ; World War II 1372 Return to Birmingham after His Service When you got out of the military the first time, what did you do? Did you go back to Chicago? Greenwood discusses how nothing really changed when he returned to Birmingham after he got out of the service. African Americans--Segregation ; Eastern Airlines Birmingham (Ala.) ; United States. Army Reserve 1503 Integration of the Service Has the military changed since: because by then, Truman had integrated the service? Greenwood recalls how the military changed after Truman integrated the service. Integration of the military ; Truman, Harry S., 1884-1972 Desegregation 1610 Remembrance of the Mass Movements Now, the 50s, things are happening you know. You have the Brown vs. Board of Education decision and then, the Movement starts with the Montgomery Bus Boycott. Greenwood discusses how he felt the mass movements impacted his life. Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka ; Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 Civil rights movement ; Racism 1838 Convention of Chicago and Other Trials Chicago, now you're talking about the mid-60s ; were you there in '68 during the Convention of Chicago? Greenwood recalls what it was like being in Chicago amongst all of the trials and race riots. Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter ; Black Stone Rangers (Street gang) ; Reverend Jesse Jackson Chicago 8 ; Convention of Chicago 2055 How Dr. King's Death Impacted Chicago This period, suddenly, '65 to '70, there was a Black Power Convention, I believe that was '70 or '71 or so, the Black Power Convention, well there was one in Chicago, there was one in Newark, I believe and then, of course the political--the Black Political Conference, that was held in Gary, Indiana and all of these things are taking place this is right after the death of Martin Luther King. Greenwood tells how Dr. King's death impacted the city of Chicago. Chicago (Ill.) ; Gary, Indiana Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 2259 Career in Chicago's Board of Education You had mentioned earlier that you sold beauty supplies. What did you do after that? Greenwood explains what he did when he worked for the board of education. Working class African Americans Chicago (Ill.). Board of Education 2337 How His Personal Experiences Impact His Poetry So, you write poetry? Greenwood reads some of his poetry and tells how he draws inspiration from his personal experiences. Blacks--Segregation ; Racism ; Slavery in American history Alabama. State Department of Public Welfare 2633 Life After Moving Back to Birmingham So, you decided then to--after--how many years--four years in Gary? To come back? Greenwood discusses his life after he moved back to Birmingham from Gary, Indiana. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Midfield (Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Gary (Ind.) 2724 Conclusion of Interview Well, I really want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule and you've been very enlightening and you helped an awful lot. Interview is concluded. Oral History Samuel Greenwood discusses growing up in Birmingham, serving in World War II and spending much of his life in Chicago. He focused on poetry after retiring from the educational system in Chicago. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mr. Samuel Greenwood for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project ; I&#039 ; m Dr. Horace Huntley. We&#039 ; re presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute ; today is November 14, 2000. Mr. Greenwood, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule and welcome to the Institute. GREENWOOD: Thank you, yes sir. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Birmingham? GREENWOOD: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: Were your parents from Birmingham originally? GREENWOOD: No, they&#039 ; re from Columbus, Georgia. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters? GREENWOOD: No brothers and no sisters. HUNTLEY: Only child. GREENWOOD: Only child. HUNTLEY: How much education did your parents have? GREENWOOD: I would say, absolutely none. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did they do? GREENWOOD: Well, my mother worked at a Chinese restaurant on 3rd Avenue and 17th Street. I never my father until I was about 17 or 18 years old because he left Birmingham when I was just six months old. HUNTLEY: Where did he go? GREENWOOD: He went to Chicago. HUNTLEY: So, you were born in what year? GREENWOOD: February 14, 1920. HUNTLEY: Those were some tough times and that period, of course, in 1919 in Birmingham, they had a force called &#039 ; Lynching Bs&#039 ; where they actually lynched Black folks and there would be a festive occasion, so, I&#039 ; m sure there were tough times. What do you remember about those first days in Birmingham? GREENWOOD: There were three incidents in my life that I shall never forget ; among those--in our neighborhood there at 1621 3rd Ave South, dirt roads and seeing the hooded riders come to our neighborhoods at night many time, swinging from the Chevys or Ford with shotguns in one hand and handguns in the other. I remember those times and there were times they would run through our house and without knocking, mothers undressed-- HUNTLEY: Run through your house? GREENWOOD: A White policeman, we knew that he was a police and we ran. We ran in the house and they thought we were trying to tell somebody about the whiskey or whatever that they might have had. But, they&#039 ; re looking for him because the White policemen were competing against each other for certain whiskey in our neighborhood and they wanted to know who sold to whom over here and they had different people telling them these things and as a result, we were always-- HUNTLEY: To get the kickback. GREENWOOD: Yes, get the kickback. In fact, there was an incident that happened whereas one police killed another White police officer because of buying for this tray of whiskey in the Black neighborhood. HUNTLEY: Is that right? GREENWOOD: Yes, sir. HUNTLEY: About, what year was that? GREENWOOD: This must have been about 1928, &#039 ; 29 or something like that. HUNTLEY: You had different segments of the police force making the effort to control the--? GREENWOOD: Right. Oh, yes sir and these policemen would come with the white robes on through our neighborhoods, but underneath, the robe wouldn&#039 ; t be another police uniform. They didn&#039 ; t&#039 ; try to hide too much from us, they didn&#039 ; t care. I do remember on the Fourth of July, an old (?) plane would come over the Black neighborhoods and drop exploding hand grenades and they would explode before they hit the ground. But, it would frighten us to death. That was the kind of intimidation that went on in our neighborhoods along with everybody who had a uniform--he was your boss, this was the person to tell you what to do. HUNTLEY: Where did you start first grade? GREENWOOD: The first school in Birmingham for Blacks, Cameron. HUNTLEY: Cameron. GREENWOOD: Cameron School on Ave H and 14th Street. HUNTLEY: It was Cameron Lane eventually. GREENWOOD: That&#039 ; s correct. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about that school? GREENWOOD: I remember we had to bring the coal in from the back to start the fire in the morning. We had to go outside the door into the bathroom ; it was cold sometimes and one of the things I vividly remember is the fact that every year we got books, the White books, with back torn off them, pages missing, but this is what they gave us. HUNTLEY: Used books that Whites used the previous years? GREENWOOD: We got the used books, the old ones. HUNTLEY: How far did you live from Cameron? GREENWOOD: I lived about eight blocks from Cameron. HUNTLEY: How did you get back and forth to school? GREENWOOD: I had to walk. In fact, I moved to Titusville at that time and I was living at 1621 3rd Ave South and I had to walk over to Center Street. But, I had to walk. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s quite a distance from Center Street. GREENWOOD: It is. HUNTLEY: Birmingham, in the 1920s and 30s, there were a number of things going on ; one of the things going on is the whole issue of race, but also the issue of working class--people attempted to develop unions. GREENWOOD: Oh yes. HUNTLEY: When you left Cameron, before we get to that--when you left Cameron, where did you go? GREENWOOD: I left Cameron and I went to Titusville and I lived out there for a while and I moved back to the Southside and I was going to the Washington School. HUNTLEY: Where did you go to high school? GREENWOOD: I didn&#039 ; t go to high school in Birmingham. In fact, I didn&#039 ; t go to high school at all, in fact, I came out of the service and I got a GED and went to some of the city colleges there and got a little bit and little bit there. HUNTLEY: When you finished your schooling, you then went into the service? GREENWOOD: No. I went to the service in December 5, 1941. HUNTLEY: So, you were 21 years old at that time? What did you do between that times ; did you go to work? GREENWOOD: My mother passed when I was about 12 or 13 years old. I had to go from one relative to the other and they got tired of me and I had to go to another relative. So, I went around to different places ; I went to New York City, Connecticut, Chicago with other relatives. HUNTLEY: So, you were away from Birmingham then? GREENWOOD: I was away from Birmingham ; I left Birmingham when I was about 13 or 14, somewhere in that area. HUNTLEY: When you left Birmingham, where did you go? Did you go to New York? GREENWOOD: I went to Chicago? HUNTLEY: With your father? GREENWOOD: I never saw my father until I got to Chicago. HUNTLEY: That was with another relative? GREENWOOD: Yes. HUNTLEY: How long were you there? GREENWOOD: I was there for I guess maybe a couple of years before I went to New York and Connecticut. HUNTLEY: Did you go to school there? GREENWOOD: Yes, I went to school for a while in New York City, 79th and 3rd Ave in New York. But, my background was such--I couldn&#039 ; t keep up with them, I just couldn&#039 ; t. I went to Connecticut ; I went to the highest little villages in the country, as far as wealth is concerned. I just couldn&#039 ; t keep up with them. HUNTLEY: How did that impact upon you as a youngster? GREENWOOD: I felt terrible about because I couldn&#039 ; t and I came back to New York City and wondered around because my aunt, who was responsible for my leaving the South, she was working for some people in domestic and she was doing the best she could for me. She got me out of this house because she wanted me to do this, but it was kind of hard. But, after leaving Connecticut, I was on my own. I was going from pillar to post trying to make it, working in stores or wherever I could. Eventually, I went back to Chicago. HUNTLEY: There were a lot of opportunities for a young Black man at that time to get involved in things that were illicit. Was there a possibility for you? Did you see that out there? GREENWOOD: Maybe that little background I had in Birmingham, trying to do the right thing and everybody was your parent and they saw you doing something wrong--maybe that held over because I never went to jail, only the Army. HUNTLEY: This period again, the 30s, 40s ; in particular places like New York, Chicago, there were the Communist Movement was ripe. Were you ever involved or know anyone who was involved in any of those areas? GREENWOOD: Yes. In fact, I had a cousin in Chicago and he went to California and he was involved with the Communist Movement. He had a theater group and I went to his group and met a lot of Communists. But, I was never the one to take out a card or anything like that. I was around them, yes. In fact, at that time, in New York City, Father Devine(?) was-- HUNTLEY: Tell me a bit about that. Did you ever attend any of his meetings? GREENWOOD: Oh yes. Father Vine was a Godsend for a while there because of the fact that we could go to Father Devine and pay $0.15 for a meal. The women were going as domestic, they had a big building they--just the women. Men had a big building by themselves over here, but it was all Father Devine and the money--he had a big mansion in New Jersey and he married a young White girl. For a while, he fed the people. HUNTLEY: Did you ever meet him? GREENWOOD: I only got close to him once ; I was coming from somewhere, I don&#039 ; t recall. There were women around a Duisenberg (?) and these women were carrying on over the Duisenberg and they were praying and moaning and carrying on. I said, &quot ; What&#039 ; s going on ; this is Father Divine&#039 ; s car and he&#039 ; s in there getting a haircut.&quot ; He was quite a character. HUNTLEY: There was Father Divine, Danny Grace during those times. GREENWOOD: Yes. HUNTLEY: Aphol(?) Randolph in developing his car porters and many times, many of these movements, they were termed to be &#039 ; other than American,&#039 ; anti-American in a sense. I know in the South, anyone that talked about racial equality, in many cases, they were termed Communists. But, the Communist had a relatively good record when it came to Unitarian movements and helping the poor and that kind of thing. Did you see that as being the case with them? Was the attraction based upon them being helpful? GREENWOOD: I think most people had idea that they were helpful because what we were going through, when I was a kid in Birmingham, Alabama ; and Dr., I want you to know that there were some trying times when once a month, when I was a kid in Birmingham, you went to the welfare store, we had a little booklet and they&#039 ; d give you some food. Well, after two weeks, food would run out and we just wished we had somebody to help us, Communists or whatever. Those were trying times and the people on the first of the month, they would come at people down a little rivulet, going into a big stream, going to 1st Ave and 14th Street, where the big welfare place was. We would get in line, standing there ; old people who were crippled, pulling baby buggies, wagons or whatever they could to put the little food that they were gonna get on there. It was quite a sight. I know that you were asked if you were Communist or whatever you were, if they could help you-- HUNTLEY: It didn&#039 ; t matter? GREENWOOD: It didn&#039 ; t matter, really. HUNTLEY: What was the transition like for you leaving Birmingham, a small Southern city to the megopolis of New York? GREENWOOD: At that time, I wasn&#039 ; t sophisticated enough to really see the difference, but there was a difference. But, it was underhanded ; here in Birmingham, you knew just where to sit and where to go. They&#039 ; d have to kick you out someplace you were trying to go in the North there in Chicago. But Chicago, there was a demarcation line there and you didn&#039 ; t step over it because during that time, the police were almost as bad as in Birmingham. It wasn&#039 ; t quite that obvious, but they were something else wherever we went. HUNTLEY: Did you anticipate any differences? GREENWOOD: I anticipated that there would be differences, but you have to be there a while because the fact that the 20s that they had the big race riot there-- HUNTLEY: In 1919. GREENWOOD: Right on the beach. HUNTLEY: Right. GREENWOOD: Killed a young boy. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. GREENWOOD: The police, they weren&#039 ; t quite as rabid as they were here because here, everybody who had on a uniform, whether it&#039 ; s a policeman, fireman, ambulance driver, if you had a uniform, he was your boss. Birmingham, you had to say, &quot ; Yes, sir, and no, sir.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Many times they didn&#039 ; t have on uniforms and you had to say these things. What was the circumstance of your meeting your father in Chicago? GREENWOOD: That was kind of an embarrassing moment because we were poor and my father--.I didn&#039 ; t even know him until I was about 14 or 17 years old. I never felt that he was my father ; although I was around him for a short amount of time. HUNTLEY: Didn&#039 ; t have that feel? GREENWOOD: No, never had that feeling as a father. Had he been a father, he would have seen about me or write my mother. My mother struggled and she died at a very young age. HUNTLEY: At the age of 21 when you went into the military? GREENWOOD: I went into the military from Chicago. HUNTLEY: What was that experience like? GREENWOOD: Well, let me put it this way, doctor, I dug every outhouse from America to--it was Germany and France because I just thought that somewhere along the line, &quot ; I&#039 ; m a soldier in the US Army, if I get killed for the country and they treat us the way they did.&quot ; We slept in pup tents while down the road, the other White soldiers slept in perennial tents and during one time, this rain, we had--I&#039 ; d give them my half of the tent, we&#039 ; d put it together and make a pup tent and his feet would be sticking out in the rain and nobody cared. We had what you called mattress covers and we&#039 ; d go out to farmers&#039 ; field and get straw to sleep on. It was rough. HUNTLEY: So again, it wasn&#039 ; t a panacea when you arrived in the military? GREENWOOD: No, sir. In fact, I was over where the 332nd fought World War. I was a service company with trucks. We serviced the 52nd Fighter Group, which was White and the 332nd Fighter Group, which was Black. I used to look up in the mornings around the airfield in Italy and see the big bombers going over first, then about an hour later, P-51s, they would go with the bombers to protect the bombers, go out there and drop the bombs, but the 52nd fighter group, they would go also over, but, they would leave the bombers and go try to find German aircraft to shoot down. But, the Black guys stayed with them all the way there and back. Once we got back to Italy, the Black pilots could not go to the service area, they could not go over to the White officer&#039 ; s tent. But, British officers allowed them to go to their tent. That mentality just made me be (?) all the way through. HUNTLEY: So, they could go to--the British would allow them--they couldn&#039 ; t go to their own service lot? GREENWOOD: They couldn&#039 ; t go their own service lot. Why I know that, because of the fact that the neighbor, in my older years, he just died this past year, was a pilot in the 332nd. I lived on the 3rd floor in a place called Chan(?) Village Co-op in Chicago, he lived on the 1st floor. I saw his children grow up and marry and Kirkpatrick was his name. Well, he told me this and he was a pilot. He was 25 years old and he was the oldest man in the group at the time from Tuskegee. HUNTLEY: That is something that you had to go through all that, although you were fighting for democracy-- GREENWOOD: That got to me, Dr., that really got to me. The White officers would send us cigarettes. Now, cigarettes were only five cents a pack when we first started out. Then they got to ten cents or twenty cents or whatever. But, over in Europe and in Africa, we could sell a pack of cigarettes for $20. Now, the White officers would give us what they call the 20 grands or wings or some of these cheap tasting cigarettes and they were awful. We knew they treated us this way, but they did everything in the world to us and I just rebelled against it. So, I was always digging outhouses because that was my extra duty. HUNTLEY: Were there others that rebelled in the same manner? GREENWOOD: Very few of them. HUNTLEY: So, you were somewhat of an outcast? GREENWOOD: I was. The officers called me out one day, had the whole company come out--126 men and I stood in front and he said, &quot ; My company says that all the problems we&#039 ; re having is because of this guy here. He could be the first sergeant if he wanted to.&quot ; They stayed on me. I went to North Africa to Italy three times. But, the fighting was so fierce in Italy at that time, that I had to come back on a DC-4 and back and forth. They wouldn&#039 ; t let me stay in one place. They wanted me to go with the company, wanted me to go with the officer who said that I was raising all this sin and I stayed with him HUNTLEY: Why would they send you with him? GREENWOOD: Because he didn&#039 ; t want me to be back here with the rest of them. HUNTLEY: You would create problems? GREENWOOD: Right. The roads were--at that time, the fighting was right outside of Naples and the roads were so full of troops going up and troops coming down til we couldn&#039 ; t have the truck company there. So, I went back to North Africa and--eventually we did come back and that&#039 ; s where I met the 332nd fighter group at. HUNTLEY: How long did you stay in the military? GREENWOOD: Four years the first time. Two years the second time from &#039 ; 50 to &#039 ; 52. HUNTLEY: When you got out of the military the first time, what did you do? Did you go back to Chicago? GREENWOOD: I went back to Chicago. HUNTLEY: Did you work or find a job? GREENWOOD: I found a job, but it was just a menial job at a hotel. I came back to Birmingham around &#039 ; 47 and started working for Eastern Airlines. HUNTLEY: You were here for a couple of years? GREENWOOD: Yes, I was here until &#039 ; 50, I was working for Easter Airlines and worked across the field there and saw the Army Reserve and said, &quot ; This is so boring here.&quot ; I joined the Army Reserve and stayed about six month&#039 ; s active duty for Korea. But, I didn&#039 ; t go to Korea ; so when I got out, instead of coming back to Birmingham, I stayed in Chicago. HUNTLEY: Now, when you returned to Birmingham, I know many of the soldiers that went away and came back, particularly males from the South and I&#039 ; m sure from the North as well. When you returned, you find many times that conditions you&#039 ; re supposedly fighting for democracy of the world, but you come back and find that the conditions are just as bad when you left. GREENWOOD: Absolutely. HUNTLEY: How did that impact upon you? GREENWOOD: I don&#039 ; t know because I asked a lady who was just a friend. She tried to help me even when my mother was living. For her, I was just trying to do the best I could for her and I accepted and when I think back over it, it was sophisticated in Chicago, but here, you know where you stood. HUNTLEY: You went back in the military when? GREENWOOD: In &#039 ; 50. Because I was working for Eastern Airlines and in &#039 ; 50, I went and stayed two years. HUNTLEY: Has the military changed since ; because by then, Truman had integrated the service? GREENWOOD: You&#039 ; re right and I&#039 ; m glad you made that point because I got into a headquarters company and we had about seven or eight trucking companies under us. Now, each company had about 126 men and (?) with White companies and this is the new thing that I was no longer segregated, but, we had some trouble. HUNTLEY: What kind of problems did you encounter? GREENWOOD: Most of the problems were with our officers trying to tell the White officers--as far as initially, we didn&#039 ; t have any problems with them. It was all cut and dry so-- HUNTLEY: You recognize that there had been a change from when you were in before? GREENWOOD: I don&#039 ; t know whether it was then, obviously not. I don&#039 ; t know exactly-- HUNTLEY: After you then served your time and you got out of the military this time, where did you go? GREENWOOD: I went back to Chicago because I had put in an application for a bus driver in Chicago. And, after this length of time that I stayed the Army and when I came back, I was called back to Chicago as a bus driver and I drove the bus for about seven or eight years. HUNTLEY: Now, the 50s, things are happening you know. You have the Brown vs. Board of Education decision and then, the Movement starts with Montgomery Bus Boycott. Did that have any impact? Were you following that during that time? GREENWOOD: Oh yes we were. We were following that at that time and I&#039 ; m trying to think of what kind of impact that it did have on me. It was always obvious to what was going on as far as racism is concerned. I never hesitated to talk about it. But, trying to make it and I had sympathy, but I don&#039 ; t know what I had did for the Movement. I don&#039 ; t even remember what I did for the Movement. HUNTLEY: But you were aware that change was taking place? GREENWOOD: Oh yea. I&#039 ; ve always regretted why I didn&#039 ; t do something but, Dr., I left here in uniform in Birmingham. I remember a Look Magazine guy was on the street in Birmingham, somewhere on 20th Street and 5th Ave, wherever. But, I was in uniform and he said, &quot ; How do you feel out there wearing a uniform in Alabama, the way you&#039 ; re being treated?&quot ; I don&#039 ; t what kind of reply it was at that time, I don&#039 ; t remember. HUNTLEY: You say Newsweek? GREENWOOD: It was either Look Magazine or-- HUNTLEY: One of the national publications? GREENWOOD: Yes. It was a national publication, right, right. HUNTLEY: But, he did raise that question? GREENWOOD: He did raise that question ; I don&#039 ; t know what answer I gave him, I don&#039 ; t recall. HUNTLEY: During the time of the struggle was taking place here, let&#039 ; s say between &#039 ; 56 and maybe &#039 ; 65, what was happening in Chicago? GREENWOOD: Well, we had our own problems ; racism in the police department was still run by Mayor Daley and whatever the police did is the same way it is now. But we didn&#039 ; t have the officers like--we didn&#039 ; t have officers because they were just getting into the police--they worked as policemen, but no big rank because all the rest of those guys had tenure, the White officers. So, we were struggling in Chicago ; we had our problems there, trying to get jobs because at that time, we were trying to fight to get counter jobs for women in the big department stores. HUNTLEY: At that time, you were driving the bus? GREENWOOD: I was driving the bus, that&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: You drove the bus for seven or eight years? GREENWOOD: Yes. HUNTLEY: What did you do after that? GREENWOOD: After that, I left the bus and started as a salesman for a cosmetic company. HUNTLEY: Was this an effort to do something to elevate yourself economically? GREENWOOD: That&#039 ; s what I tried to do. I had a truck that I sent directly to the beauty shops all over the city of Chicago. But, they didn&#039 ; t have the type of business the Whites had because if you went into a White shop, the owner bought all the supplies and took the money that way. But, in Black shops, each operator did their own thing and they didn&#039 ; t have much money, they couldn&#039 ; t buy the supplies and I was just spinning my wheels and trying to create a business there. But, it wasn&#039 ; t successful. HUNTLEY: How long did you stay there? GREENWOOD: I stayed there about three or four years trying to make it. HUNTLEY: Chicago, now you&#039 ; re talking about the mid-60s ; were you there in &#039 ; 68 during the Convention of Chicago? GREENWOOD: Yes, yes, oh yes. Brother Daley beat us up so, yes sir. Oh yes. I remember seeing on TV, in the papers there whatever. That was quite something. It was mostly Whites involved, mostly White, young-- HUNTLEY: Young, White kids and of course, they had the Chicago 8 trial at the time and Bobby Seale was involved in that. GREENWOOD: Oh, that&#039 ; s right because he came over there on the west side and they shot through the walls, that&#039 ; s true. HUNTLEY: That, Fred Hampton, Mark Clark, they were leaders in the Black Panther Party, Hammerhand(?) was the-- GREENWOOD: Hammerhand (?) was the man. HUNTLEY: They actually murdered Bobby Sutton-- GREENWOOD: They did because they shot through the wall. We had a guy by the name of Gloves Davis, who was a Black police officer and he was terrible. He was with Hammerhand, going into-- HUNTLEY: Of course, at that time, the Blackstone Rangers were in Chicago. GREENWOOD: They were. HUNTLEY: Then, the Black Panthers got involved with that ; was there any-- GREENWOOD: I remember going to a rally with Reverend Jesse Jackson because one of the preachers in his alliance, whatever, in his group, said something about the way the Black Stone Rangers were doing. Now, you got to know about the Black Stone Ranger, they went pretty deep. There were monies to be given and Stone was a big insurance man. He gave the Black Stone Rangers money for whatever reason, I don&#039 ; t know. But, the Black Stone Rangers were doing nothing but selling dope, they were intimidating people and all of that. But, one of the preachers in Reverend Jesse Jackson&#039 ; s group made remarks about him, the Stone. They burned his church completely to the ground, yea. But, there were elements working with the Black Stone Rangers, just in neighborhoods. Why Mr. Stone, the biggest insurance man in Chicago gave the Black Stone Rangers money, we never know. HUNTLEY: There were also some suggestions that eventually, Mark Clark and the Black Panther Party would have an impact upon trying to stop some of the gangsterism of the Black Stone Rangers and other gangs. Were you familiar with any of that taking place? GREENWOOD: No, I wasn&#039 ; t familiar with that. But, I do know, sir, that they were so different. I remember the Black Panthers were trying to help the young kids and I don&#039 ; t remember any of the Black Stone Rangers trying to help anybody like that. HUNTLEY: Right. This period, suddenly, &#039 ; 65 to &#039 ; 70, there was a Black Power Convention, I believe that was &#039 ; 70 or &#039 ; 71 or so, the Black Power Convention, well there was one in Chicago, there was one in Newark, I believe and then, of course the political--the Black Political Conference, that was held in Gary, Indiana and all of these things are taking place this is right after the death of Martin Luther King. When Dr. King was assassinated, how did that impact on Chicago? GREENWOOD: If we weren&#039 ; t completely involved the Civil Rights Movement, we just felt the loss. Everybody was hurt ; it was like when Roosevelt--maybe when he died, remember the people were just crying and carrying on and it was the same thing with Dr. King. You just wouldn&#039 ; t believe it. But, I think he kind of warned us about what was going to happen to him. I think most of us kind of prepared, many of us were. We didn&#039 ; t think it would be so rapid, one behind the other, like Bobby--we just didn&#039 ; t believe that America would do that to us, but--and they&#039 ; re still doing it to us. HUNTLEY: It did happen. GREENWOOD: Dr., I want to tell you a little bit about Indiana. I moved to Gary, Indiana about four years ago. I retired from my work for the Board of Education in Chicago ; I moved to Gary and it was a little wooded area, nice and quiet--deer, ducks and geese. I was just tired of listening to that sobbing all day and all night, where I was living 84th and Cottage Grove. I moved out there and I volunteered for the police department, after a while, they made me a job. The Government gave them some money, so--that is something. I have to read to you one day about this poem that I had written about Gary because all the Whites left. They left the buildings, they left their businesses and I mean, they moved down the road where it&#039 ; s called Maryville now. All these dilapidated houses are still there, dope is rampant, homicide is higher than Birmingham and we only have 116,000 people living there and you have almost a million here. But, our homicide rate is something else, you got guns coming from everywhere into Gary. Dope is rampant. HUNTLEY: So, you were moving out to get away from it all? GREENWOOD: That&#039 ; s right and that&#039 ; s why I decided to come back here. HUNTLEY: You had mentioned earlier that you sold beauty supplies. What did you do after that? GREENWOOD: I got a job in the maintenance department for the board of education and I stayed there until I retired. HUNTLEY: Oh, okay. Did you work at a particular school? GREENWOOD: Yes, I worked at a particular school and in fact, I worked at a couple of schools, maybe three or four school. You know, they had what you call a roaming crew ; there certain things that janitors couldn&#039 ; t do like the lawns or the trees or whatever we did there. We called them roaming crew. But, after I retired from the board of education, I volunteered in the classroom for five years, to help the kids. I would read little poems to them or whatever to try and help until the board of education says that we can&#039 ; t have the EMH--we can&#039 ; t put them in a special class, we have to put them all together and that was a bad thing. After that, I had to get out because the kids were--the EMH kids were--- HUNTLEY: What are EMH? GREENWOOD: Emotionally Handicapped. It was just something and I left there. HUNTLEY: So, you write poetry? GREENWOOD: Oh yes. HUNTLEY: How did that start? GREENWOOD: I don&#039 ; t know Dr, it was just from what I saw as a kid in Birmingham, like house rent parties, like with the two or three-room houses, shotgun houses and there were tin roofs the rain would be beating--it&#039 ; s just what I saw. The people going to the welfare store and they come in groups, merging into a big string, going in there and how bad we were treated once we got inside there, how the man would throw the food at us and all of those things. HUNTLEY: You have a poem that you can read to us? GREENWOOD: Sure, yes sir. I thought you might like this. Here&#039 ; s one, Dr. it&#039 ; s called, We Done Survived. Let me get my glasses here. HUNTLEY: It&#039 ; s about life, isn&#039 ; t it? GREENWOOD: Popped, marked and burning, it was a mean old road when it come down Planting, picking and pulling, toting another man&#039 ; s load Work morning til night, clear infested swamp land, planting and cutting sugar cane Broken tame wild horses, history don&#039 ; t even know our names, but we survived. Built a big house with swown(?) staircase, ornate doors, while the master practice a refine art of living on hand-and-knee-polished floors. Hand-carved beds with canopy high, made the mattress would sit it down, we slept on bags of corn shucks and moss on a cold, cold ground. We butchered the hog and cured the meat, all we got at Christmas time is the skin and cuts and the pea, but we survived. Back at us, dusty roads, washed shed, shotgun shacks, Saturday breakdown, catfish, pig ears, pig feet and $.25 cents bottles of home brew. &quot ; Keep our (?) table, boy and I&#039 ; ll keep out of jail&quot ; says the big boss man, fist fights, razor slashing, bodies gutted like hogs on a killing floor, come Sunday morning, a sleep tide washing away the blood of Saturday night, calling sinners to take their place on a mourners(?) base and through it all, we done survived. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s deep that is deep. Read another one to us. GREENWOOD: Okay. This is called, Traveling Man: He was a traveling man, he was a (?) line, he&#039 ; s gone now, all he left was a good name, a gold watch and chain. 35 years, still pounding steel, can see him now, bowed and bent, worked hard like the rest &#039 ; cause the system because of color paid him less, White against Black, Black against White, the rich man&#039 ; s scheme, but he held fast to worker&#039 ; s dream. As a child, I sat on his knee, he spoke a (?) along the track, Black man swinging from a tree, while demons and rows of Whites danced in ecstasy. Knight Riders terrorized the countryside, lit the midnight sky ; Black breathing hands reached out asking a reason why (?) answered their cry, &quot ; It&#039 ; s July, they rang the Liberty Bell&quot ; some of us freedom, other was living hell, (?) clouds through the sky reflecting cotton fields below, while ragged fingers pulls sacks of misery down each row. Well, these was (?) to the young in line, (?) make it time. Grandfather (?) job in the yard, a short time later, he was dead, died of a broken heart. Whenever a train whistle blow, I see Black faces, sweat dripping from every pore. Home of the brave, land of the free were only that mocked me. HUNTLEY: What&#039 ; s the inspiration for your poetry? GREENWOOD: I don&#039 ; t know, I just know that I wish that I had an education that I could have been--maybe I might have been somebody near some of the poets that we have today like Langston Hughes or some of those-- HUNTLEY: Have you ever thought about publishing your work? GREENWOOD: I have thought about it and I said once I get down South, everyone gonna try to get me a proofreader and try to get something published. HUNTLEY: That would be great because that&#039 ; s life. They said that nobody can write that but you. GREENWOOD: I saw it, Dr. it was something, yes Lord. HUNTLEY: So, you decided then to--after--how many years--four years in Gary? GREENWOOD: Right-- HUNTLEY: ----to come back? GREENWOOD: I have a cousin who lived in New York City and she worked for Columbia University and she was working in the department where they get the Doctorate, the PhDs whatever and she decided she wanted to come back because we were all raised in Birmingham at an early age. And she said, &quot ; I just wanted to come back.&quot ; So, we got together and we got a house out in Midfield. So, we live together there now. HUNTLEY: Were you ever married? GREENWOOD: Oh yes. My wife about 15 years ago and I never remarried. HUNTLEY: Did you have children? GREENWOOD: I have a step-daughter and grandchildren, yes. They&#039 ; re in Chicago. HUNTLEY: So you been to Birmingham now for--? GREENWOOD: About six months. HUNTLEY: How has that transition been? GREENWOOD: It was a little harder getting adjusted to it, but only from the point I miss my friends being there all the many years. But, I adjusted, I&#039 ; m getting ready to join Antioch Baptist Church over here. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s great. It&#039 ; s great to have you back. GREENWOOD: Oh yes, I&#039 ; m glad to be back. HUNTLEY: We know that you&#039 ; re volunteering here at the Institute. GREENWOOD: Oh yes. HUNTLEY: We really appreciate it. GREENWOOD: Dr. I&#039 ; m really happy to be back. One of the things I thought when I came back, I would see some of my old landlords, but nothing&#039 ; s here, they&#039 ; re all gone. All on the Southside there-- HUNTLEY: UAB has taken most of that. GREENWOOD: Europeans taking everything. HUNTLEY: Well, I really want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule and you&#039 ; ve been very enlightening, and you helped an awful lot. GREENWOOD: Okay, well, I appreciate that, sir. I&#039 ; m glad to be here of service, yes, sir. HUNTLEY: Thank you. GREENWOOD: Thank you This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=SGreenwood2000.xml SGreenwood2000.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Samuel Greenwood (2000) Description An account of the resource Samuel Greenwood discusses growing up in Birmingham, serving in World War II and spending much of his life in Chicago. He focused on poetry after retiring from the educational system in Chicago. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 20001114G Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Chicago (Ill.) World War II Communist movement Gary (Ind.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2000-11-14 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/6c668fcce489bab0ce469decbe9d9ff9.png 0527d22ad190c1e61796203b1053c975 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Carolyn Beard Wilson OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CBWilson1998.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Desegregation in Public Schools OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 August 13, 1998 Carolyn Beard Wilson Interviewed on August 13, 1998 19980813W 0:46:38 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Friends, Quakers Fellowship Program Davis, Angela Y. (Angela Yvonne), 1944- Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Desegregation in Public Schools Carolyn Beard Wilson Horace Huntley Video 1:|28(10)|57(5)|77(6)|95(5)|122(15)|145(10)|164(13)|181(5)|199(2)|212(9)|228(11)|241(6)|252(17)|270(1)|296(8)|326(7)|341(4)|359(13)|378(3)|401(13)|418(8)|431(3)|445(11)|463(12)|475(13)|493(2)|513(5)|525(13)|555(4)|569(8)|591(7)|606(9)|623(9)|633(6)|652(1)|662(5)|674(11)|684(15)|694(11)|714(8)|725(9)|737(7)|748(12)|763(12)|783(7)|795(14) 0 https://youtu.be/K6aoYuqp3ww YouTube video English 9 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Ms. Carolyn Beard Wilson for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I'm Dr. Horace Huntley. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 42 Background and Family Life I just want to ask you a couple of questions about your family. Were you born in Birmingham? Wilson talks about where she is from, her siblings, and her mother and father's education. Collins (Miss.) ; Meridian (Miss.) ; New Hope Baptist Church ; Piney Woods (Miss.) Lincoln University ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 201 Early Childhood through High School Now when you came to Birmingham, of course you don't remember when they brought you to Birmingham. This then becomes home. What do you remember about starting school? Wilson discusses where she went to elementary school and high school. Legion Field (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Lincoln School ; Parker High School 450 Her Father's Impact on Her Childhood Experience Tell me now, you lived in the parsonage. Your family was, your father was the minister at Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. Which was of course a prestigious church. How did you relate to other children as a result of the status of your father? Wilson describes how her father's position in the church impacted her life. Carver Theater African Americans--Segregation ; Racism ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 606 Personal Memories of Racial Segregation I know that all of our parents attempted to shelter us from that massive thing we call segregation or whatever. Do you have any recollection of any incidents that may relate to segregation and race during your childhood? Wilson recalls a time when she experienced racial segregation. Alabama Theater Blacks--Segregation ; Racism 718 Pressure on Black Men and Black Boys Now, I know during any time in the history of this country that there is always a lot of pressure on Black men or Black boys. Were your brothers, did your brothers ever have any difficulty that say a girl would not have? Wilson discusses the pressure placed on black men and boys, specifically her brothers. African Americans--Segregation ; Racism Black Men and Black Boys 830 Demonstrations of the Early 1960s Now, being really right downtown. You live in downtown, your church is in downtown. You were in close proximity physically anyway with many of the activities that were taking place particularly with, well, lets say in 1960, '61. Wilson recalls where she was at during the year of mass demonstrations. Miles College ; Tuskegee University Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Mass Demonstrations 949 Siblings' Involvement with Friends, the Quakers Fellowship Program For me, I missed being at home. That was my first time being away from home. By me not being at home I didn't do well with my lessons. I didn't do well at all. Wilson discusses her siblings' involvement with the Quakers Fellowship Program and how they moved away from Alabama. Kentucky ; New York (N.Y.) Friends, Quakers Fellowship Program 1088 Involvement in SCLC I could be involved in anything else but not going down to the marches with the hoses or the dogs or going down to the University of Alabama, the police. Anything like that she said you will get hurt. Wilson discusses her participation in the SCLC. Huntsville (Ala.) ; The University of Alabama ; Tuscaloosa County (Ala.) Dr. John Cashian ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 1161 Campus Life at Miles College Now, as the activities developed at Miles because I know Miles students were involved down here as well. Wilson recalls what it was like on Miles College campus during the time of mass demonstrations. Davis, Angela Y. (Angela Yvonne), 1944- ; Stokey Carmichael Dr. Lucius Pitts ; Miles College 1250 Anger Regarding the Discriminatory Treatment What are you angry about? Wilson discusses how angry she is about the way she was treated. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. ; Dr. P. Washington Coats Blacks--Segregation ; Racism ; Treatment of Blacks 1587 Desegregation and its Ramifications in the Workplace What did you do after Miles? Wilson discusses her teaching experiences at all-white and all-black schools. Huffman High School ; Kingston Elementary ; McElwain School Desegregation ; Racism 1975 Change in Alabama's Education System Over 30 Years So, you made the transition to high school. Over that 30 year period how has the system changed? How has education changed? Wilson discusses how Alabama's Public Education system has changed in her years of teaching. Desegregation in Public Schools Alabama's Public Education System 2153 Reflection on Her Past If there were anything, if you had the ability to change any portion of your life going back through it. What would you change? Wilson discusses one thing in her life she would change if she could. McElwain School Desegregation ; Treatment by Coworkers 2391 Meeting Her Husband I think the most and of course we had a lot of marvelous experiences being raised up in the church with our father being over us. Not only over us but everybody. Wilson recalls how she met her husband. African Americans--Marriage ; Rev. Prichard Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 2786 Conclusion of Interview Well, I certainly appreciate your time. Interview is concluded. Oral History Carolyn Beard Wilson discusses growing up in Sixteenth Street Baptist Church as the Pastor's daughter before attending Miles College and teaching in Birmingham. She details experiencing the process of school desegregation from an educator's perspective. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Carolyn Beard Wilson for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I&#039 ; m Dr. Horace Huntley. We&#039 ; re presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is August 13, 1998. Ms. Wilson, I&#039 ; d like to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule and welcome to the Institute. WILSON: I&#039 ; m glad to be here. HUNTLEY: I just want to ask you a couple of questions about your family. WILSON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Birmingham? WILSON: No. HUNTLEY: Where were you born? WILSON: I was born in Meridian, Mississippi. HUNTLEY: Meridian, Mississippi? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: So, were your parents then from Mississippi? WILSON: They are both from Mississippi. My mother is from Mount Olive. My dad is from New Haven. My father was called to a church in Meridian to preach, New Hope Baptist Church. Then when I was eight months old he was called here to preach at Sixteenth Street. HUNTLEY: So, really this is home. WILSON: Really this is home. This is where I was raised up. Right. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? WILSON: Ok, there were nine of us. We had one brother and a sister to pass away. HUNTLEY: I see. WILSON: Now there&#039 ; s seven of us left. HUNTLEY: Where were you in that scheme of things? WILSON: I was like the first girl my mother had. Do you understand what I&#039 ; m saying? HUNTLEY: Ok. WILSON: She had three boys before she had me. So, I was the first of a kind in that family unit. HUNTLEY: What about your parent&#039 ; s education? How much education did they have? WILSON: My mother taught school in Mississippi before my father met and married her. My father of course went to Lincoln University and got his degree in divinity. Of course, there was a long hard struggle. It was very, very difficult for them. It was a thing they were determined to do. My mother being the oldest in her family. My grandfather was determined that they were going to go to college. She&#039 ; s the one that went. HUNTLEY: Where did she go? WILSON: She went to Piney Woods at that time. That was a college. In fact we have her diploma and everything at home. HUNTLEY: Piney Woods is just one of the few Black Institutions such as that, that&#039 ; s still around. WILSON: It is still around. HUNTLEY: I have a nephew in fact that went last summer and also this summer for a week at Piney Woods. His parents are in the military. He&#039 ; s in Korea and they come here every year and they go to Piney Wood. WILSON: When we go home, when I say home, I mean my mother&#039 ; s home for a family reunion or to visit my cousins. We passed through Collins, Mississippi and we passed the old courthouse. It&#039 ; s still standing looking like a traditional small town courthouse where she had to go and get her teaching certificate, register and everything. Register to vote, believe it or not. You know what she had to go through for that. HUNTLEY: In Mississippi? WILSON: Yes, at that time but she was knowledgeable. HUNTLEY: Absolutely, must have been. Now when you came to Birmingham, of course you don&#039 ; t remember when they brought you to Birmingham. This then becomes home. What do you remember about starting to school? Where did you start first grade? WILSON: We started, first of all we went to kindergarten, day care which used to be called the Federation Day Nursery. It was down there on the Jasper Road across from Legion Field. Of course, they&#039 ; ve torn all that down now. Of course, that&#039 ; s where my dad put us in nursery school, or day care, or kindergarten. From there of course to Lincoln School. That was always a wonderful experience from first grade all the way to eighth grade. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Lincoln? WILSON: I remember the strong teachers that loved and cared for you. And the marvelous principals, Mr. Sutherland, Sam Sutherland was one of our principals. Mr. . John Trailer was the other one. They&#039 ; ve both passed on now. That was at the time when the principals had control. It was different than what it is now. HUNTLEY: Right. WILSON: The teachers even if they had a feeling against the principal it was not vocalized at all. The principal was it and the teachers taught us and they loved us like we were theirs. HUNTLEY: Yeah, and you lived in what community? WILSON: You mean now? HUNTLEY: No, then as you were growing up? WILSON: Right here at the parsonage next to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. That&#039 ; s where we were raised up. HUNTLEY: So, how did you get back and forth to school? WILSON: We would lake little short cuts through the back alley ways. We would go down 6th Avenue North, that way. HUNTLEY: You would walk? WILSON: We would walk. The only time that we would maybe ride to school, which was very seldom, was if it was raining. If it was not raining hard dad would say still walk. You know walking was pleasurable because you had your schoolmates that lived right around you. Everybody lived together. You were protection for each other and at that time all the mothers, just about the mothers and grandmothers were at home. So, they knew who would be passing every morning at a certain time. All the way up to 11th Street we would walk. Through the little cuts we would call it. Then walk up to 8th Avenue, switch up that way. Then go up and go to school. HUNTLEY: After Lincoln where did you go? WILSON: Old Parker High which is right up the road. (Laughing) A couple of blocks right up the road. At first when I left Lincoln of course you know the Parker Annex was right down from us. HUNTLEY: 9th grade. WILSON: 9th grade there. Went to the Annex. After that we left and went up to Parker High School and we still walked to school. HUNTLEY: What was Parker High School like when you went? WILSON: To us it was wonderful. I think it had a lot to do with the way it was structured, the way the education system was structured for us at that time. I don&#039 ; t know about the others. For example, you and I would start out together with Ms. Daisy H. Ray&#039 ; s first period class. She would call the roll, but Ms. Daisy H. Ray would say teach you government. You go to second period together with the same class. Third, fourth, all the way to the end of the day. You would be with that same class until seventh period. Then you would break off and go to your various, cosmetology, band, shoe repair, whatever you wanted to go to. We were together all day so that was our family. We knew each other. The system of course was different then. HUNTLEY: Were you involved in any extracurricular activities? WILSON: I was always in the band. At Lincoln School I was in the band. When I got to Parker I was not in the band. I tried out for the choir and Mr. Willie Mayes Henry frightened me so badly, I was so afraid of him and my sister who was good and clean and played the piano. She played for the choir. So, I backed down and didn&#039 ; t join it. I got into other organizations, the Travelers Club and things like that. The cosmetology unit and things like that. I was very, very sociable. I&#039 ; ve always had been. HUNTLEY: I would not be able to tell that. (Laughing) Tell me now, you lived in the parsonage. Your family was, your father was the minister at Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. Which was of course a prestigious church. How did you relate to other children as a result of the status of your father? WILSON: Ok, and I&#039 ; m assuming you mean children in my community and at school? HUNTLEY: In your community, right. WILSON: There was no difference made. My father was the kind of man, he was like that. In fact if he was coming to school to pick up me he would pick up you too and bring you home. When mom would cook dinner she would cook enough not only for us which there was a lot but she cooked enough for all of the children to come over and eat. So, we had a very good rapport with the children, with the neighborhood and of course my father was looked upon as the helper in the neighborhood. He was looked upon as the one that would help you out if you needed it. I remember a lot of times he would have to take people to the hospital and do things for people. That&#039 ; s just the way he was. HUNTLEY: Now, what I&#039 ; m bearing you say is that your childhood then was a good time in your life. WILSON: Very positive experience. HUNTLEY: Many times we, being from Birmingham, Birmingham being noted for its segregation people often wonder how do you have a good childhood in a setting such as this. WILSON: Our father of course taught us everything. He let us know about the racism, segregation, where it came from, how it got started. He would get books and bring them in for us to read them. So, we always knew what was going on but at the same time he sheltered and protected us from having any direct contact. If you know what I mean. He would not even let us go, we could go to the Carver Theater, walk across and go to the Carver, we could go to the Famous and the Frolic. Even though they were not up to par so to speak. Right down about a block or two was the Leary and he said no. He said, &quot ; You are not going to go upstairs to a colored balcony while the Whites sit downstairs.&quot ; He would not permit us to do it. I think one time one of us did and boy did we regret it. So, he was always very... it was painful for him. As we have grown up now and we look back we see that it was so painful for him to deal with this racism. HUNTLEY: I know that all of our parents attempted to shelter us from that massive thing we call segregation or whatever. That&#039 ; s almost next to impossible in a setting such as that. Do you have any recollection of any incidents that may relate to segregation and race during your childhood? WILSON: Yes, I have a couple I believe. I remember something was going on at Fair Park and we could not go. My daddy had to have the terrible duty of telling us why. So therefore, we had to go down Bessemer Highway to a little park off of that, it was called Kiddie Land. HUNTLEY: In Roosevelt? WILSON: In Roosevelt. We still have the pictures of us riding around in little Kiddie cars. That was one. That was so painful. Even today I don&#039 ; t have any use for Fair Park, Alabama Theater. Now speaking of some personal things that happened. As I said, he kept us from, he protected us. In fact he knew where we were going every moment. Even if he was not at home and my brothers were going out to play it would be in the confines of this area no where else. No where walking around or playing around. They had to stay right in these areas which was a sort of protection. I&#039 ; ve had some experiences later on in life. Then as a child, because my father was a type of person that welcomed ministers even White ministers to come to the house, missionaries. So, the contact that we had with Whites was you could say positive so to speak. When we got in the real world (Laughing). HUNTLEY: It&#039 ; s a different story. WILSON: It&#039 ; s a different story then. HUNTLEY: Now, I know during any time in the history of this country that there is always a lot of pressure on Black men or Black boys. Were your brothers, did your brothers ever have any difficulty that say a girl would not have? I think that many times boys would venture a little bit further than girls. Was that a problem in your family? WILSON: I don&#039 ; t think it was a problem. As I said our father was the center of everything for us. He was the one that was there. Now my mom was always there but our dad is the one that you can say my brothers worshiped my father. Not only was he stern but he was very kind and loving. So, they knew not to venture out too much and do too much. He would get on us now. If he had to pull the belt out he would pull it out, but very seldom did he get it out. So, like I said in my house it was understood that everybody had to go to college. It was never spoken but you&#039 ; re going. HUNTLEY: Did your mother work outside the home? WILSON: After my father died she did. After dad died, as I told you she taught school before she married. Some principals at the church, some members of the church got her on the continuous supply list and she worked doing that for years. Then someone got her work up at Alabama A &amp ; M. That&#039 ; s where she retired. HUNTLEY: Did your father work other than as a minister? WILSON: Only thing U1at he ever did. He preached here, there, everywhere. HUNTLEY: Now, being really right downtown. You live in downtown, your church is downtown. You were in close proximity physically anyway with many of the activities that were taking place particularly with, well, let&#039 ; s say in 1960, &#039 ; 61. 1961 for instance the Freedom Rides took place. WILSON: Ok. HUNTLEY: Were you all aware? WILSON: We were aware, but you see at that time we were not living here. See, dad died in 1960, March and we had moved down to Smithfield. HUNTLEY: I see. WILSON: We were not here. We were not in this proximity but we were very well aware of what was going on. HUNTLEY: Right. In &#039 ; 63 of course. WILSON: Yes, we were here. HUNTLEY: The year of the mass demonstrations took place. And you were probably a freshman at Miles. WILSON: No, I had gone to Tuskegee in &#039 ; 62 after I finished Parker. I came home during the summer of &#039 ; 63. That&#039 ; s when all of that started taking place. Of course at that time the only one of us at home were my baby sister and myself. My mother was just so afraid. She said, &quot ; Pleasedon&#039 ; t go down there.&quot ; She was afraid we were going to get killed, you know. Which was understandable. HUNTLEY: So, you were a freshman at Tuskegee? WILSON: I was a freshman at Tuskegee first and then when I came home for the summer I started out at Miles in the following year. HUNTLEY: Where were you? Were you at Tuskegee in April and May of &#039 ; 63? WILSON: No, no, I was here. HUNTLEY: You were here then. WILSON: No, April and May I was there. I was at Tuskegee because we didn&#039 ; t come home until June. HUNTLEY: So, the demonstrations had already taken place by time you got home. WILSON: Yes, they had already taken place. HUNTLEY: There were demonstrations in Tuskegee as well. WILSON: Oh, yes, there were. In the downtown area. It was very, everything was very alive. You were aware of what was going on. We were young but we knew what was going on. HUNTLEY: How was the transition? What was the transition like from Parker to Tuskegee? WILSON: For me, I missed being at home. That was my first time being away from home. By me not being at home I didn&#039 ; t do well with my lessons. I didn&#039 ; t do well at all. So, my mom said ok. Of course they wouldn&#039 ; t let me come back in. So she said no, I think I&#039 ; ll just let her stay here. I think my mother and I had become so close. See after om father died. We had brothers in the military. One brother at [inaudible] and everybody just kind of went there separate ways. My sister up in Kentucky, Ann and my baby brother Oscar were, I know you are familiar with the Friends, the Quakers Fellowship Program. They were in that. Ms. Maple Margaret Murphy got them in that when they were like in 10th grade at Parker. So, they were gone. They were in high schools up North. HUNTLEY: Where did they go? WILSON: I can&#039 ; t think of the name of the high school. My sister went to [inaudible] and my brother finished Princeton. HUNTLEY: Did they finish high school up there? WILSON: They finished high school up there. HUNTLEY: In what state? WILSON: My brother was in New York and my sister was still in Kentucky I believe in and around the Kentucky area. HUNTLEY: They both were associated with the program? WILSON: They were with the Friends. In fact they were recruiting here during that time and Ms. Murphy let them have their name. They came to the house and interviewed my mom. It was real exciting. It was good. It had its negative and it&#039 ; s positive. They were leaving home. But my mother being in the situation that she was in she had all these children to raise, honey, you know. I think in her mind she was thinking, thank you God for sending me some help. Of course they got scholarships to college. Their grades always remained A&#039 ; s. They got straight A&#039 ; s all the way through high school and college. So, it was painful on one end but you could see the end result on the other end. HUNTLEY: Right. I know that you said that your mother didn&#039 ; t want you involved in the movement because she was deathly afraid. WILSON: I could be involved in anything else but not going down to the marches with the hoses or the dogs or going down to the University of Alabama, the police. Anything like that she said you will get hurt. So, being at that time you say, yes mother and you did what she said. I did work for SCLC while I was at Miles. I did some work during the summer for them. HUNTLEY: What did you do for them? WILSON: I was up in Huntsville and they came recruiting out there to get college students to work during the summer. We stayed at Dr. John Cashian&#039 ; s house. He was a dentist up there. We stayed at Dr. Cashian&#039 ; s house. What we did we went to a designated place everyday and tutored. I taught reading and math to students I know that would not have had a chance. As I look back on that I say oh, I&#039 ; m glad I did that. HUNTLEY: So, you did that one year? WILSON: It was one summer while I was at Miles. It was just that one summer. I didn&#039 ; t go to summer school that summer. So, I used that summer to go up there. HUNTLEY: What did you major in? WILSON: My major out at Miles was, I have a sociology major with a history and education minor. So, I teach, right now I do history and geography. I teach that. HUNTLEY: Now, as the activities developed at Miles because I know Miles students were involved down here as well. WILSON: Yes. HUNTLEY: What was happening on campus? WILSON: All the time. Dr. Lucius Pitts was our president and he was in with everything. We were always rallying and campaigning for something. Stokey Carmichael came on campus one day. Just spoke openly on the campus. Just all kinds of people. I think Angela Davis came, Angela Davis and I are the same age. She was always so active and always has been. It was just open. It was just open. It was a marvelous experience for me. HUNTLEY: Did that experience have any impact upon how you would view your surroundings? Was there any change in the way that you had seen your surroundings earlier versus what it would be a little bit later based upon the activities that were going on? WILSON: I think it just added to it. I found that many of my friends that I know of quite well. All of us were raised up at the same time in Birmingham. Many of us are still bitter about what was going on and what&#039 ; s going on now. I&#039 ; m bitter but it&#039 ; s not to the point where I can&#039 ; t do anything about it. Do you understand? I&#039 ; m still angry. HUNTLEY: What are you angry about? WILSON: I&#039 ; m angry with the way I was treated. That we were treated. That we were denied access. That&#039 ; s what I&#039 ; m angry about. Right across this park was an elementary school. I can&#039 ; t think of the name of it right now but I believe it was private. HUNTLEY: Finley. WILSON: We could go to the park and play but couldn&#039 ; t go over there. My dad would say, &quot ; It&#039 ; s While.&quot ; Right down further was Powell, Powell Elementary. So, I&#039 ; m angry about being denied, no you can&#039 ; t. My experiences at Lincoln and Parker and Miles, honey, you can&#039 ; t pay for it because they just. .. and you know back in those times there was a strong sense of community. Our father was like the man (Laughing) in this whole area even far and beyond he was well known. Even up al Parker, R. C. Johnson was the principal then and he was well known. When he walked the halls (whispering) [inaudible). That&#039 ; s the way it was and the sense of the community. So, you had that protectiveness and that love and that caring. All the time out on the peripheral you knew how far you could venture out. That&#039 ; s what&#039 ; s been painful coming up as a child. HUNTLEY: Right. You know there&#039 ; s always been discussion about where the mass meetings were held, and that Sixteenth Street initially did not allow meetings to be held there. Was that ever discussed in your family? WILSON: Never discussed. We never heard it discussed. But I do recall as I was telling the person that called me yesterday. I do recall that Dr. King did come here and speak. It was after the bus boycott. That was in &#039 ; 5 5. That had become successful. Then after that of course my dad being the minister I know he was instrumental in getting him here. We would bear our father say from time to time something is going to happen to bring the city together. But of course not knowing and he was a visionary person. He was very strong and spiritual. A lot of things he could foresee. He would [inaudible]. This would be said sometimes around the breakfast table, around the dinner table. He wouldn&#039 ; t say anything. Another painful thing since we&#039 ; re talking about those kinds of things. HUNTLEY: Sure. WILSON: You know how 11 goes straight through University of Alabama. I don&#039 ; t know whether it still does now. That&#039 ; s the route we would take going to Mississippi to visit our grandparents and our cousins. HUNTLEY: Right. WILSON: And he would always say, we would ask him why can&#039 ; t we go there. He would say, &quot ; Because you&#039 ; re the wrong color.&quot ; He said, &quot ; One day you will, and it won&#039 ; t be long.&quot ; Well, here again we had no idea what he meant, you know being children. I never will forget one experience we were driving through Jackson, Mississippi. My father had a lot, there&#039 ; s a big family of them, huge family. He had three or four that lived right in Jackson. He did a lot of his preaching there. We were driving through downtown and these police pulled us over. So, my father said, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t say anything.&quot ; So, none of us said anything. It made us so angry because we hadn&#039 ; t done anything. The fact that my father, the church had bought him one of these big nine passenger DeSota&#039 ; s if you remember those. A big car coming through town, you know. He was very polite, &quot ; Yes, officer, may I help you?&quot ; &quot ; Yeah, boy, where are ya&#039 ; ll going?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, this is my wife&#039 ; s home and I was raised up down here.&quot ; We could just see my father cringing but at the same time protecting us from this, you know. He said, &quot ; Oh, why are you coming through Jackson?&quot ; He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to visit my sisters and brothers.&quot ; Then he said their name. &quot ; Oh, yeah, we kmow them.&quot ; So, things, demeaning things like that. Very demeaning. HUNTLEY: It has some staying power with any child. WILSON: It has stayed with me, all of it has stayed. HUNTLEY: How have you dealt with that? In terms of your being angry. This is modem day, 1998. WILSON: I think I&#039 ; ve dealt with it in fact that I&#039 ; ve stayed with the church. Even though when my father died we moved down and my brothers and sisters moved away I was still here at the church taking part, playing for. In fact, when I was 13 years old though. This was before dad died. One of his pastor friends, Dr. P. Washington Coats, he and a few had left Tabernacle which was on 25th Street at that time and they bad moved around here to Southern Bell Funeral Home. They would let us use the chapel. My dad came in one Sunday and said, &quot ; Baby,&quot ; He explained what was going on. &quot ; They need somebody to play for them.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Ok.&quot ; You didn&#039 ; t take it. There was no lip going on. You did what your daddy said. I said, &quot ; Ok.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Every Sunday you go over there.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Yes sir.&quot ; That&#039 ; s where I went. That was an experience for me. That was quite an experience. I stayed there until I was 19 or 20 years old. I think it was the church. I was very bitter. It&#039 ; s like your average 18, 19, 20-year-old. Even when I started teaching I was still bitter. HUNTLEY: What did you do after Miles? WILSON: After Miles I started teaching, right away. I started out at McElwain School and I started out at the time. It&#039 ; s out in the Crestwood area, Crestline. HUNTLEY: That was a White school? WILSON: All White. It was during the time when the courts had demanded this crossover. You had to desegregate your faculty first. Me and another teacher we were the first and only two Blacks out there. HUNTLEY: What was that experience like? WILSON: It was traumatic because we were not, you would think persons, you know professionals, you know we were all teachers would be treated well but we were not. We were isolated and ignored more than anything else. We were not included. We were the first of course. Of course the children and the parents treated us well because we were teaching their children. They treated us with dignity. HUNTLEY: The faculty? WILSON: The faculty, no. It was a thing of, in fact we had to bind or be together. I didn&#039 ; t know her and she didn&#039 ; t know me until we met. She has children my age, has sons my age. We had to get real close, right away. We bonded instantly for protection. As I look back on it of course the only Blacks out there were the ones in the kitchen or maintenance. They had never seen any Blacks in that position. They had been programmed, socialized and just could not accept it. I was very angry about that. HUNTLEY: You mean Blacks that were in the ... WILSON: No, the Whites I&#039 ; m talking about. HUNTLEY: So, there were not Blacks even in the kitchen? WILSON: Yes, there were Blacks in the kitchen but they had a White dietician over them. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. WILSON: Then you had your regular maintenance workers. HUNTLEY: What year did you go out there? WILSON: I went out there in September of &#039 ; 68. HUNTLEY: You were the first two Black teachers out there? WILSON: We were the first. At that time that was a strong Jewish community. In fact the parents would invite us to their Bar mitzvah to Temple Emanuel or whatever they had going on we would be involved in it. HUNTLEY: So, the community accepted you. WILSON: The community accepted us because we were teaching their children. We didn&#039 ; t have any, nothing. Nobody to come and picket, none of that. It was the cold isolation that we received from the faculty. HUNTLEY: What was the stance of the principal? WILSON: I think the principal felt like he was in a position, Mr. Mann, he&#039 ; s dead now. He was in a position where he was cultured and wanted us as much as he was permitted to do so. If you understand what I mean. He would always come to my room. I remember once when Dr. Brown, I think it was Dr. Charles Brown started making the little videos about Black history month, Black history week, whatever. I got one of those kits and I was determined to show it to the kids. So, I went to the principal and said, &quot ; Mr. Mann, I have something I want you to see and I do want to get your permission to show it.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Ok, come on.&quot ; He looked at the film strip and said, &quot ; Ok, show it.&quot ; So, he was in a position to where he couldn&#039 ; t be to far either way. HUNTLEY: But you didn&#039 ; t have any, you didn&#039 ; t get any flack from parents as a result of showing that? WILSON: Oh, no. Our flack came from the faculty. HUNTLEY: From the faculty. WILSON: Yes. Nothing was said to us verbally but actions. I mean when you walk pass a person and you speak and you don&#039 ; t speak then that&#039 ; s a slap, you know. HUNTLEY: How long were you at McElwain? WILSON: I was at McElwain for three years. Then I went to Kingston Elementary. No, I was at McElwain for about five years. Then went to Kingston had seventh and eighth grade. Mr. Jones was the principal out there then. He taught us math at Parker while we were there. Then when I left Kingston. HUNTLEY: Kingston was a Black school? WILSON: All B lack. That was a different experience too because I never had that, you know. I had all Whites and all Blacks. I felt like I was doing more. HUNTLEY: How did you come about making that transfer? Did you request it? WILSON: I didn&#039 ; t request it. The state department al that time was trying to get everybody on top with their certifications. See I have certification for secondary which I think starts maybe at the seventh grade and goes on up. When I was at McElwain I was teaching some fifth and sixth grade social studies. I&#039 ; m thinking that&#039 ; s what it was. It could have been something else. I don&#039 ; t know. HUNTLEY: How long were you at Kingston? WILSON: I was at Kingston one year. After I left Kingston the board became involved in a tutoring program. No, I need to back up some for you first. I started teaching with the board in January &#039 ; 68 but I started at McElwain that September. I started with the board in January &#039 ; 68 being a tutor teacher. There were several of us and we would go from school to school. Of course the person over the program tried to get me in the vicinity of there where we were living in Smithfield. Even though I didn&#039 ; t have a car I had people to come and pick me up. You know I had access to buses. I went to Bush, Graymont Elementary School, at that time Mr. Tortorice was the principal there then. So, I was in that up until the school closed. I was a tutor teacher. It was a federally funded program. They paid us just like first year teachers. Then I went to McElwain. HUNTLEY: So, how long have you been in the school system? WILSON: I&#039 ; ve been in the school system as of January this year, 31 years. HUNTLEY: And where are you now? WILSON: Huffman High School. HUNTLEY: So, you made the transition to high school. Over that 30-year period how has the system changed? How has education changed? WILSON: (Laughing) Well, we know education has changed. That we know. Well, see at first I started with the White students and then had Black students. Then I went to a situation where I had Black and White students together. When I first started out being a teacher I had more say so about how I was to control my class. How I was to teach them. But doing all these different programs coming in, changing over of administration. I think I&#039 ; ve seen about five or six super intendents since I&#039 ; ve been here. It could be more, I don&#039 ; t know. I met all of them personally. There has been more of a target on you justifying yourself. There&#039 ; s a better word for it I can&#039 ; t say it right now, but you know what it is. You have to back up everything that you do. HUNTLEY: You have to prove yourself. WILSON: You have to prove yourself and that&#039 ; s paperwork to me. That&#039 ; s unnecessary. I am a trained professional taught by the best. We call her Mom Bliss out at Miles College and Ms. Ida Smith who taught me all my secondary courses. She&#039 ; s still living. I was taught by the best and this is demeaning. You have such little time to teach and your hands are tied when it comes to discipline. And of course discipline can take many forms. I don&#039 ; t always believe in the spanking but I think they should go somewhere else for that, but I think I should control that in my room and students should not have the power to talk back to me. It has changed. HUNTLEY: You say that is what is happening today. WILSON: This is happening today and there is less focus on what students are learning. Well, now we&#039 ; re going to the block scheduling this year. I think the concept behind that is if students have more time in your class, this is what I&#039 ; m hearing. I&#039 ; m going to a workshop tomorrow there&#039 ; s supposed to explain the whole thing. What I&#039 ; m hearing is that if students have more time in your class you can have more time to work with them. That&#039 ; s not it because I&#039 ; ll have 30 to 35 kids in my class it&#039 ; s going to still, I still have to manually pass out sheets, do a little lecture because they don&#039 ; t understand that. It goes over their heads. And of course, our students have changed. Society has changed, home environment, family. All of that has impacted education, very much so. It has. HUNTLEY: If there were anything, if you had the ability to change any portion of your life going back through it. What would you change? WILSON: Any portion of my life? HUNTLEY: Any portion of your life and the way you have been impacted upon by other things. Not necessarily saying that there wouldn&#039 ; t be segregation, but all other things remain the same. What would you do different than you did? WILSON: I think looking back on it when I first went to McElwain School. I was so angry. I was so angry and hostile that I became ill. I developed spasms of the colon. Of course the doctor I had said a lot of times that steams from the way you &#039 ; re raised up, you&#039 ; re expectations in your family. I said, &quot ; No.&quot ; But looking at our history how can I not be angry? I just, and I mean I became very vocal after a while. After we had taught at school that school for maybe a year or maybe before that. We started developing strategies to deal with them. One strategy was and I did not create it my co-worker did. She said, &quot ; Carolyn, when you go to the office don&#039 ; t smile and don&#039 ; t speak. Get your things out of your box, sign your name, get your coffee and come out.&quot ; Just out of the blue she did it. I said it was God giving her division. She said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to do the same thing.&quot ; She got there that morning and did the same thing. See they stand around in the office and if you spoke it was grunt or it was nothing at all. Honey, by the end of that day I bet you a number of them down on my floor found a reason to come to my door for something. I&#039 ; m not kidding. They found a reason to come to my door for something. Of course I started, I was angry. I said, &#039 ; &#039 ; Yes, what do you want?&quot ; &quot ; Oh, Ms. Beard, just. . .&quot ; &quot ; I&#039 ; ll see about it later and let me get through with my class.&quot ; &quot ; You can come by later if you have time.&quot ; I became very belligerent about it. It just came out. It was a cleansing process for me too. Then after the doctor believe it or not the doctor that I had was the White doctor that treated my father with his nervous condition. He would tell me, honey, you have to find a way to deal with those folks out there. Those were his words. He&#039 ; s dead and gone now. I said, &quot ; What do you mean?&quot ; &quot ; You have to find a way to deal with it or I&#039 ; m going to put you on disability.&quot ; He said because the condition I was developing would lead to other conditions. Of course I went through the whole battery of the physical examination. They did everything. You know how they turn you upside down. It&#039 ; s a nervous condition. HUNTLEY: It was something you had. WILSON: So, when I went back. I was out sick a lo t that first year teaching. I went back and my coworker told me she said, &quot ; Listen, we&#039 ; ve got to work.&quot ; We used that strategy. HUNTLEY: We&#039 ; ve covered a lot of territory. WILSON: Have we? HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to conclude with? WILSON: I think the most and of course we had a lot of marvelous experiences being raised up in the church with our father being over us. Not only over us but everybody. Of course he had his bad times there too. That&#039 ; s understood. But out of, first of all being raised up by wonderful loving parents who loved us very much. Then being exposed to loving teachers who were concerned about our welfare and who taught us well. Then by me being exposed to teaching, my teaching career. I think my next big thing was meeting my husband and having my baby. That was a plus in my life. We&#039 ; re working on 21 years. My daughter&#039 ; s beading to college in the next two weeks. It&#039 ; s added so much to me. People ask me often why are you always bubbly. I said, look, I was the first of a kind in my family. I was showered with affection and love and that&#039 ; s all I give out. It&#039 ; s natural as breathing air to me and drinking water. It&#039 ; s not anything I perform or put on to do. It&#039 ; s very natural. I found as a gift from God, He has made it possible that people are attracted to me. It&#039 ; s not my own gift it&#039 ; s something He put in me to do and I love that about myself. I guess you can tell. (Laughing) My husband and I know you don&#039 ; t have much time but I must tell you how I met my husband. We were having a church picnic out at Harrison Park with Sixteenth Street. I was there playing. I was about 33, 34 at that time. So, I went out and one of my girlfriends said &quot ; Don&#039 ; t go out to the picnic come here.&quot ; I said, &quot ; No, I promised some of the ladies I was coming to show them how to play bridge.&quot ; Well, like a lot of single girls you have this boyfriend and that boyfriend. I was at a low at that time anyway. I went and I was standing out in the park by myself, just standing there deciding should I stay or go home. So, these two little girls came up to me and pulled on me. They said, &quot ; Hey, Ms. Beard.&quot ; I said, &quot ; What are ya&#039 ; ll doing out here?&quot ; They said, &quot ; Well, our dad brought us out here.&quot ; Well, I taught them over at Davis School when it was a school. See I was on another program under Dr. Fountain called Ease of Humanities and I worked in that for a year. Me and Ruth Krull, oh several of us. Anyway, I had taught them during the program over there. I said, &quot ; Oh.&quot ; They said, &quot ; Where are you fixing to go?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going home.&quot ; They said, &quot ; No, come meet our daddy.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Ok.&quot ; So, I walked up and some men were coming out. So, I walked up to him and I was about to shake his hand and said, &quot ; How are you doing? My name is.. &quot ; He said, &quot ; I already know who you are.&quot ; I said, &quot ; You do?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Yes, your Carolyn Beard.&quot ; And he ran down the whole shebang about me. Here I am wondering who told this man about me. I said, &quot ; Oh, ok.&quot ; He said, &quot ; You don&#039 ; t remember but you played for my baptismal one Sunday morning at church. Rev. Crutchet called you.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Yeah. Was it you?&quot ; He said, &quot ; It was me and two other kids got baptized. I said, &quot ; I vaguely remember it but I didn&#039 ; t see you.&quot ; He said, &quot ; I know.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I didn&#039 ; t know you were a member here.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, yes and I&#039 ; m on the usher board and I usher when the men need me.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Ok.&quot ; So, we left from there and went to start playing cards. So, I was playing with Henry Blankenship and he would always call me big sister and I would call him little brother. So we were playing cards. My husband now, he was picking at me. He said, &quot ; I thought you could play cards.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I can.&quot ; We started picking at each other. He said, &quot ; Well, tomorrow I&#039 ; m going to come down to the piano and speak to you.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Ok.&quot ; Then I left. Thought no more about it. He came down to the piano said, &quot ; Hey Ms. Beard.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Hey how are you doing?&quot ; Fine, bye and I left, you know. So, my mind wasn&#039 ; t on that. So, three weeks later Henry Blankenship got us together. We went out that night, that was like on a Monday and we went out. We went to Henry&#039 ; s house out in Pratt City. He said, &quot ; I just knew ya&#039 ; ll were going to get together.&quot ; He had called me that morning telling me that he likes you. I said, &quot ; You can give him my phone number.&quot ; He said, &quot ; No because your phone number is private.&quot ; So, he told him that she can have my number, so I called him that evening. So, we got together and we&#039 ; ve been together ever since. HUNTLEY: 20 something years. WILSON: We met in &#039 ; 76 and got married in May of &#039 ; 78. HUNTLEY: ls that right? WILSON: I got to tell you something Rev. Prichard told me. He said one Sunday he came to his study and asked him who was the lady down there that plays and directs the choirs. He said, well, I have about three or four down there. He said, oh, no, this one is big and yellow and big pretty legs. She is gorgeous. So, he said, oh, you mean Carolyn. Rev. Prichard said, why do you ask? He said, that&#039 ; s going to be my wife. It&#039 ; s going to be your what. HUNTLEY: He had already made that decision. WILSON: He had already made it by just looking at me, watching me. So, sure enough Rev. Prichard said he watched them and sure enough he wouldn&#039 ; t hanky panky around. He was just waiting to meet me. When I met him I was just so impressed. I said this is such a loving man. He is a very kind, hard-working, gentle, all the above. HUNTLEY: Not many folk can say that. WILSON: They find the least little thing to get mad about. HUNTLEY: Well, I certainly appreciate your time. WILSON: I&#039 ; ve enjoyed it very much. HUNTLEY: Maybe we&#039 ; ll do it again sometime. WILSON: That&#039 ; ll be fine. HUNTLEY: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CBWilson1998.xml CBWilson1998.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Carolyn Beard Wilson Description An account of the resource Carolyn Beard Wilson discusses growing up in Sixteenth Street Baptist Church as the Pastor's daughter before attending Miles College and teaching in Birmingham. She details experiencing the process of school desegregation from an educator's perspective. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19980813W Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Friends, Quakers Fellowship Program Davis, Angela Y. (Angela Yvonne), 1944- Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1998-08-13 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/11851af72f95e272dda8b838857d9e19.png 0e05173603906986430a1afbd17730de Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Laura Anderson Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Barbara Cross OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=BCross2012.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Ramsey High School OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 October 15, 2012 Barbara Cross Interviewed on October 15, 2012 20121015C 1:22:53 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Till, Emmett, 1941-1955 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Ramsey High School Barbara Cross Laura Anderson Oral History 1:|21(2)|33(5)|43(8)|55(9)|66(2)|81(1)|92(2)|103(4)|118(9)|148(14)|169(8)|186(1)|198(3)|217(6)|240(8)|255(11)|267(10)|278(12)|286(11)|298(9)|318(11)|339(6)|348(5)|358(15)|368(6)|381(15)|390(5)|400(13)|412(2)|422(14)|434(7)|446(13)|457(11)|467(3)|477(3)|485(1)|493(9)|505(6)|514(7)|527(5)|540(8)|552(4)|562(8)|571(9)|585(16)|603(12)|614(7)|626(15)|644(16)|657(3)|669(13)|682(5)|691(13)|702(16)|715(9)|727(8)|737(11)|748(16)|759(7)|771(10)|785(1)|797(8)|817(2)|831(7)|844(4)|867(14)|881(7)|895(14)|913(4)|928(5)|940(7)|952(10)|964(2)|976(2)|985(12)|999(16)|1011(11)|1025(12)|1044(11)|1052(8)|1065(16)|1082(7) 0 https://youtu.be/LXGfHliswpY YouTube video English 18 Introduction of Interview I want to thank you so much for making a trip, also, to do this. Today is Monday, October 15, and the year is 2012. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 71 Growing Up in Virginia Growing up in Richmond, I remember being a happy little girl. Cross recalls what it was like growing up in Richmond, Virginia. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Richmond (Va.) Girl Scouts of the United States of America ; Kilmonic (Va.) 173 Family Background and Moving to Birmingham Can you tell me what you remember about arrival in this city, and do you know what, if any, preconceived notions you had about Birmingham? Cross discusses what it was like moving to Birmingham and what her community was like. Richmond (Va.) ; Titusville (Al). African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 662 Everyday Life in Birmingham Just what everyday life was like... Cross tells what everyday life was like when her family first arrived in Birmingham. Leeds (Ala.) ; Racial disparity Birmingham (Ala.) ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 837 Personal Recollection of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church Bombing Can you tell me your first memory of, discussion of, the movement? And maybe Monday night meetings... Cross recalls what she remembers experiencing during the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church bombing. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 1214 Aftermath of the Bombing Because she knew. And she said, 'Where's Lynn?' and we can't find Lynn. Cross recalls the immediate aftermath of the bombing and how Dr. King came to visit her father. Birmingham (Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 1677 Living in Fear in Birmingham Did life turn back to normal? Not for me, because the sound of that day still reverberated in my mind for about ten years. Cross recalls how after the bombing she spent her life living in fear. Post-traumatic stress disorder 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1900 Memories from the Bombing Trial OK, well, he blamed himself for the bombing, and he was giving them all the information about, because he had testified about from the grand jury, and one of my neighbors brought my dad over to Birmingham for that. Cross discusses what life was like during the bombing trial. Blanton, Thomas ; Ku Klux Klan 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Birmingham (Ala.) 2260 Her Father's Impact on the Civil Rights Movement But I miss my friends, but I like to think that, they are angels of change. Cross discusses her father's impact on the Civil Rights Movement. Alabama State University ; Atlanta (Ga.) ; Lee, Spike Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 2919 Meeting Emmett Till's Mother Right, right, and I met Ms. Till, now I'm reminded that you should say that, when I came over on one of the tours, she was with John Lewis' group, and I come over here every year with Ms. Lowery's group. Cross recalls meeting Emmitt Till's mother. Reverend John Cross Birmingham (Ala.) ; Till, Emmett, 1941-1955 2993 Recalling Her Father Searching the Bombing Rubble He had to, to show with his camera what ... four beautiful girls look like when they came out of the church. Cross discusses her father going through the rubble of the church after the bombing. Lee, Spike 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Birmingham (Ala.) 3188 Life at Sixteenth Street Baptist Church After the Bombing Can you tell me, if you remember, of if you remember your father talking about, the weeks and months after this happened. Cross recalls what it was like in the church after the bombing and how she testified in the trial. Birmingham-Southern College ; Southern Poverty Law Center. Civil Rights Education Project Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 3781 Her Siblings' Experience of Segregation and the Movement Uh, Michael, all I remember, and I don't know whether this is the type of effect he has, he used to always say when he got to be a teenager, that he never wanted to work for a white person. Cross recalls how her siblings behaved after the bombing and how they integrated Ramsey High School. Blacks--Segregation ; Ramsey High School Birmingham (Ala.) ; Integration 4166 Her Family's Experience of the Conclusion of the Trial Doug Jones, yeah. Yes, he came to my father's homegoing service. Him and Sidney Sheldon. Cross recalls how her father's health was in decline but he still made it to the conclusion of the trial. Blanton, Thomas ; Jones, Doug Atlanta (Ga.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) 4340 Sacredness of Birmingham After the Movement You know, people come here from all over the world every day and they are on a pilgrimage. Cross discusses how she enjoys that people travel to Birmingham to reflect on the past and to see how far the Movement has come. Angels of Change ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 4683 Sharing Her Story I like speaking engagements, but one thing was the best thing I think I ever did. Cross recalls her most important interview where she talked about her experience in the bombing. Oregon ; Reverend John Cross Reflections from a Violent Past 4956 Conclusion of Interview We can get a new tape, or we can say it is done. Interview is concluded. Video Barbara Cross discusses surviving the Sixteenth Street Church Bombing in great detail. Her father, Rev. John Cross Jr., was the pastor at the time. ANDERSON: It should be recording. I&#039 ; m not going to wear my microphone, because I&#039 ; m not important. CROSS: You&#039 ; re not being seen. Wait a minute, you&#039 ; re important, because this is your job. You&#039 ; re very important to your institution. Which is very good, I&#039 ; m honored. ANDERSON: Well, we are honored to have you here today. CROSS: Thank you -- ANDERSON: I want to thank you so much for making a trip, also, to do this. Today is Monday, October 15, and the year is 2012. I&#039 ; m Laura Anderson, and I work in the archives here at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute, and we&#039 ; re really proud to have you, Barbara Cross, join us for this oral history interview. CROSS: Thank you. I&#039 ; m honored to be here to share my history. ANDERSON: Thanks. Yeah, I like to just have a conversation. If you could tell me, um, before we forget this detail, to give me your full date of birth and place? CROSS: Sure. I&#039 ; m Barbara Ann Cross. I was born on June 6, 1950, in Richmond, Virginia, which is Henrico County. ANDERSON: OK. Tell me about your childhood and youth, if you will. CROSS: Growing up in Richmond, I remember being a happy little girl. I&#039 ; m the oldest of, uh, four siblings ; and I have a sister, Alma, who&#039 ; s two years, uh, younger than me ; and then I have a sister, Onieta Lynn Cross -- we call her by her middle name, Lynn -- and she&#039 ; s the baby girl, she was born in 1958 ; and, my brother Michael Juvan Cross was born in 1957. Life for us in Virginia was real normal. We would always love to go visit my maternal grandmother, who lived in a rural area, Kilmonic, Virginia, during the summer months. I remember being in the Girl Scouts in Birmingham and camping. In 1962, when I was 12 years old, I was excited about moving to a new city, because I had never lived nowhere except for Richmond. My sister next to me, she had a problem, because she had close friends, and she didn&#039 ; t want to leave her friends. And, my father was called to pastor the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. And we arrived in Birmingham June, the summer of 1962. And, I was excited about meeting new friends, uh, going to a new school when the fall came, but little did I realize that Birmingham would be, turn into a nightmare for us, because I did not know about the demonstrations that were to come, or about Dr. King. ANDERSON: Can you tell me what you remember about arrival in this city, and do you know what, if any, preconceived notions you had about Birmingham? CROSS: I had no preconceived notions, because my probably father probably tried to shield us about the type of racial crime that was here, so the only thing I knew was that I wanted to meet new friends, come to a new environment, and I was excited. And, we moved into a nice neighborhood, it was in the what they called the Titusville area. If you&#039 ; re familiar with Sixth Avenue Baptist Church, it&#039 ; s in that community, Goldwire Way, and that was the church parsonage. The, the home across the street, which was the previous minister before my dad got there, was Reverend Beard, and they lived in, that was the parsonage then, next to the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church, which is now office space. So, the people at the church were so welcoming to us, my family -- and most ministers back in those days, they fed the pastor and his family -- so, we had great church members. So, I was happy so far as the neighborhood, meeting friends in the neighborhood, and school hadn&#039 ; t started yet, so my nightmare did not really start until the summer of 1963. But I was happy-go-lucky, like I said, based on our church family, the neighbors that I had developed new friendships in the neighborhood. But it was when, the summer of &#039 ; 63, is when we were aware of a lot of the demonstrations, and after going to school and hearing things. It&#039 ; s amazing when I think about TV today and now, most of the homes then only had about one or two TVs, and we didn&#039 ; t really watch the news much. I remember reading the newspapers about nuclear weapons, and missiles, the bay of Cu, missile crisis, and thinking about that, because in schools, we would have, instead of fire drills, we had to get in the hallway and put our head down between our legs because of the, uh, the -- I don&#039 ; t know what kind of drill they called it, but it was like because of nuclear weapons. So, but it was the summer of &#039 ; 63, and September, is when we were exposed to the violence that happened in Birmingham. ANDERSON: Before we get to that, can you tell me a little bit about your home life, and what your parents were like -- CROSS: OK ANDERSON: and, um -- CROSS: By my dad being a pastor, he was away at the church a lot during, preparing his, his sermons on Sunday, and I had a close friend in the neighborhood -- and actually went to college together later -- but, and she liked to play bid Whist cards, and we had some other neighbors behind us, they used to have parties -- what they call waistline parties, and whatever your waistline was, you paid to get into the garage -- so we enjoyed that type of things. And, I liked going to the library on Saturday, we would buy these little &quot ; fizzies&quot ; and put it in water, and we would drink and read our books, and I was like happy as a lark. And also we enjoyed going back to visit our grandmother in the summer. So, the summer of &#039 ; 63, we would go back to Virginia, but because of the hotels were segregated, we either had to drive a long way before we got to Kilmonic, Virginia. We were afraid to go through, I was afraid when my dad went through Mississippi, but I think he went to Mississippi when we visit my paternal grandmother. I didn&#039 ; t meet my grandmother on my father&#039 ; s side &#039 ; til I was 25, so I had my cousins to visit from Arkansas, because we were always closer to my mom&#039 ; s side of the family, because we lived in Virginia. So my dad would go visit his family, but I didn&#039 ; t meet her until we moved to Alabama, so that was interesting to become closer to my, uh, dad&#039 ; s side of the family, my cousins, so it was a new set of family. And my grandmother lived to be at least 102. And she died probably in the -- middle &#039 ; 90s. But my mother&#039 ; s, got to, mother got a chance to visit us in the summer -- or was it one Easter in &#039 ; 63. And we have a picture of her in the church, and that was before the church was bombed. But, I have a lot of good memories prior to September the 15th, 1963. ANDERSON: Now your father was from Arkansas? CROSS: Yeah, he was born in Haynes, Arkansas. But how he got to Virginia, because he was in service, and then he went to school at Rich, Virginia Union -- I don&#039 ; t know whether it&#039 ; s College or University, but it&#039 ; s University now. In fact, the Atlanta alumni chapter is named after my father. ANDERSON: Hmm. CROSS: But it&#039 ; s ironic -- my mother had, has a twin brother, he&#039 ; s still living, my mother is deceased -- and, usually when you preach at a rural church, it&#039 ; s not many restaurants in the area, so my uncle, which is my mom&#039 ; s twin brother, invited him to dinner after the church service. And the rest is history. They said they were winking at each other across the dinner table. And they married, and we moved to Richmond, and my dad, uh, we lived in Richmond, I was born in 1950, so we, I was there in Richmond from 1950 to our move to Birmingham in 1962. ANDERSON: If you&#039 ; ll excuse me one second. CROSS: OK. -- will I be able to see what I did? I know I can&#039 ; t have a copy of it, but -- ANDERSON: You can have a copy of it. CROSS: I can have a copy of it? ANDERSON: But of course. CROSS: Oh, get out of here, thank you! ANDERSON: Of course. CROSS: I know when my dad did, are you familiar with the lady in Chicago, that has a -- ANDERSON: The History Makers? Mmm hmm. CROSS: He did that the year before he died, at home, and I have not even looked at the DVD yet, because, I was there with him. But, we used that picture, that suit he had on, the picture they had, we used that part of his obituary service. ANDERSON: Oh, OK. CROSS: Uh, huh. It&#039 ; s on his program. And it was so funny, because my dad, a lot of things he couldn&#039 ; t remember, and I was there to kind of coax him. They said, &#039 ; let him talk about it,&#039 ; cause they asked him what his favorite food was, or his favorite color, and I don&#039 ; t ever remember him having a favorite color, but I guess they wanted him, to see him in his natural, whatever he could remember. ANDERSON: Mmm hmm. CROSS: And it was real interesting, did it in in the home, and that&#039 ; s the first time I had really seen or, oral history presentation being done, and I was there to guide him. ANDERSON: OK CROSS: And be there part of it with him. ANDERSON: Well of course, um, we might take for granted that your family&#039 ; s experience here in Birmingham, uh, maybe, became so much a part of your family&#039 ; s story that you would have to live with it every day afterward, um. But I guess if you&#039 ; re ready to tell that story, we can do that -- CROSS: Oh, I&#039 ; m ready -- ANDERSON: I love getting ideas about what life was like for your family before that happened. CROSS: Right. ANDERSON: Umm, just what everyday life was like, and -- CROSS: And it was normal. My younger sister, uh, stayed at home. My mom didn&#039 ; t work outside of the home, to my knowledge. I know before probably she married my dad she was an educator, but I think she was a homemaker, because he had several jobs, in, -- before he got to Birmingham, because ministers back then probably didn&#039 ; t make much -- he was in a rural part of the Richmond area, it&#039 ; s called Chesterfield County. And, I was looking at what he had said before, that they wanted him to be full-time and don&#039 ; t do anything else, and he said, &#039 ; But I&#039 ; m not getting full-time pay, I&#039 ; m part-time.&#039 ; So, back then they got part-time pay for full-time service, and he had to be, I think, to help a heart surgeon to do the pump and stuff like that. Well, here, this was his full-time job at Sixteenth Street, so my mom might have been more of aware of things that were going on about the movement. And, my day to day activities, when the summer, was just making friends in the neighborhood, active in youth programs at the church, because Sixteenth Street, we used to go to -- I think it&#039 ; s called Leeds, Alabama -- so, it was an amusement park, so I don&#039 ; t know whether it was just for blacks, but we had a good time when we went to Leeds, Alabama. So there was a lot of things that we were sheltered from, and so we felt happy. Prior to &#039 ; 63. So, it was like, life is good for me. But my sister next to me, I think she was still moaning the friendship that she left behind. In fact, as a little girl, I remembered hearing things, you know how we listen in on adult conversations, not sure what we&#039 ; re gonna listen to? Well, I remember my mama, my mama said she had something in, growing in her stomach, and I was like, oh she has a baby in her stomach? But then I found out she had developed an ulcer, because she really did not want to move, she had to drink special water and stuff, but I was like, happy-go-lucky. So, she was the one that eventually met a close friend in Birmingham, and it was the daughter of Reverend Nelson Smith. In fact, Ms. Smith just passed, I think, a couple of weeks ago. And his church was in our neighborhood, it was Sixth Avenue on one side, and -- New Pilgrim on the opposite end. ANDERSON: Hmm. CROSS: But at the time we were living there, it was built in the neighborhood I think some years later, after we left. And, so, Alma had a friendship and my brother had a neighbor friend, so we were happy kids. Because we did not know about the movement that was getting ready, things that were taking place, that we were not aware of. ANDERSON: Can you tell me your first memory of, discussion of, the movement? And maybe Monday night meetings -- CROSS: That part I didn&#039 ; t know until later, but I, I was aware that we couldn&#039 ; t go to certain theaters in Birmingham, they were segregated, but we could go to a movie. But I think it was maybe -- the spring of 1963, when Dr. King actually came to Birmingham. And, I think looking at it on the news, or hearing people talk about it in school, so it&#039 ; s ironic we were naïve to that. You want me to fast-forward to Birming--that Sunday yet?, because basically I didn&#039 ; t know anything about all that until after all this happened. ANDERSON: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, sure, you need, all you can do is tell your own story -- CROSS: OK ANDERSON: That&#039 ; s what we want to know -- CROSS: OK ANDERSON: I just wondered what your first -- CROSS: OK ANDERSON: memory was of hearing about the movement. CROSS: All I remember is that, on that Sunday, September the 15th, 1963, or prior to that Sunday, we had practice because we were going to sing in, I always sang in the choir or ushered for the Youth Day. But that particular Sunday was the first Sunday that my dad had instituted as Youth Sunday, so far as being on a program. But we always had youth ushers or we would sing in the choir, youth choir, and they had an orchestra. In fact, Mr. Jimmy Lowe, who was the orchestra -- I think his son, after he, Mr. Lowe passed, his son directed the orchestra. But that day it was exciting because we were going to be a part of the program, actually somebody was going to read the scripture or say a prayer or do an offertory prayer. And I&#039 ; ll never forget my mother didn&#039 ; t go to church that Sunday, she was at home, but all of my siblings and my dad, so we would get to church probably a little before 9:30 because my dad probably had to open up. And, I remember him saying he usually parks on the side of the church -- what&#039 ; s that? is that the Sixteenth Street side? yes -- but that particular Sunday, he didn&#039 ; t park there, I done forgot where he said he parked. But, I remember that lesson so vividly, we were talking about forgiving your enemies. And, Mrs. Ella Deman was my teacher. I was 13, and we had discussed if somebody does something to you, whether steal your lunch or hit you, we&#039 ; re gonna use the type of agape love that you forgive somebody who does something to you. So I remember we shared about different things that happened to us, cause back then we didn&#039 ; t say kids bullied like they do today, we just knew they fought or they were, treated you mean ; I don&#039 ; t remember the term bully until today. So, after the lesson was discussed, there&#039 ; s a bell that rings for reassembly, probably about ten o&#039 ; clock. I do remember I used to play the piano at the church, but I don&#039 ; t think I, for Sunday School, but I don&#039 ; t think I started playing until I was like 15, because we stayed in Birmingham until 1968 -- six years. So, I do remember, I was getting ready to get up, and go to the bathroom, cause my friend Addie had come by the classroom. And my teacher stopped me and gave me a clerical assignment. And my assignment, I remember she told me to write down the names of those who would be moving up in Sunday School, like we move up in grade school, fall of the year, excuse me, we move up in Sunday School. So I gave Addie my wallet and said, &#039 ; I&#039 ; ll see you in a little while.&#039 ; I remember getting back to the writing, and it seems like it was just a short spans of time -- before I saw her -- and the most horrific noise I&#039 ; ve ever heard in my life, and it seemed like the building was rocking off its foundation. And I remember something hit me in my head and I started screaming, and it just seemed like everything went dark and all you could hear was screams from the kids, because the basement area is where all the children&#039 ; s classes were. And, I just remember people were screaming, it was like almost a stampede. And I was looking for my younger sister and I never did see her. And I remember one of my church members, Mr. Hill, he was trying to -- cause I guess he knew my dad was the pastor, and he was, had to see what was going on -- and I found the sister next to me and my brother, but we still couldn&#039 ; t find my baby sister, she was four. So Mr. Hill took us out the front of the church, which is the Sixth Avenue side, and he was trying to keep us from going to the side of the building, because I didn&#039 ; t realize that&#039 ; s where all the policemen were, and that&#039 ; s where all the devastation was. So I remembered, I said, &#039 ; We can&#039 ; t find my sister.&#039 ; He said, &#039 ; Well, we&#039 ; re gonna take you home.&#039 ; So it was Alma, and my brother Michael, and my mom was waiting at the door, because back then they didn&#039 ; t have call waiting. We lived approximately twenty -- well, in the Titusville area, which is Goldwire, where Elmwood Cemetery is, you think that&#039 ; s about 25 miles? From the church? ANDERSON: You mean blocks? CROSS: 25 miles from the church or maybe 10 or 15 miles? ANDERSON: Oh, no, no, no. It&#039 ; s not anywhere near that far. CROSS: OK. Well, my mother heard the noise in our neighborhood, and she said immediately -- ANDERSON: Oh, I&#039 ; m sure she did. CROSS: Because she knew. And she said, &#039 ; Where&#039 ; s Lynn?&#039 ; and we can&#039 ; t find Lynn. And later we found out, some hours later, that she had gone to the hospital with the other 20-something injuries. And when my dad came home, some hours later, but all we knew is the phone kept ringing and ringing, and we didn&#039 ; t have call waiting then, and it was news reporters calling and, we, my mom put me on the phone, and I talked to one reporter and I just told them what I remember experiencing. And then her brother, her twin brother, made an emergency call, because my mom&#039 ; s family and my dad&#039 ; s family, they saw the interruption, and they were trying to hope my grandmother didn&#039 ; t hear it so she&#039 ; d have a heart attack. All they heard was says, &#039 ; The program has been interrupted because the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church was bombed.&#039 ; And I don&#039 ; t think they heard about the deaths immediately, but when they did hear about four girls were killed, my uncle -- my brother, we kinda laughed about it later -- he said, he probably said some curse words to the operator, he said, &#039 ; My sister and her family are in trouble, a church has been bombed, and I want to be sure everybody&#039 ; s OK.&#039 ; So, they put an emergency call through -- Laura, can I get a tissue? OK. ANDERSON: Of course. CROSS: I think I have a, something in here. ANDERSON: I can go get some if you don&#039 ; t. CROSS: Let&#039 ; s see. ANDERSON: There should be a box in here. CROSS: I got it. Thank you. OK. So, uh, they inter, they interrupted the broadcast, and the operator got him through, and he heard -- we couldn&#039 ; t tell him about my sister, because we didn&#039 ; t know -- we just said, mama said Alma&#039 ; s here, Barbara&#039 ; s here, Michael, we don&#039 ; t know where Lynn is. And then when my dad came home, he had her, uh, but like I said this is hours later. But how I found out my friends had died, Laura, he had the program, the original program, and on the back -- let&#039 ; s say maybe this was six o&#039 ; clock when he got home, I don&#039 ; t know, five o&#039 ; clock, time was like, didn&#039 ; t mean anything to me back then -- it had deaths. It had my friend Addie&#039 ; s name on there, 14, and the funeral home she was at. It had Cynthia&#039 ; s name on there, Carole, and Denise. And I was overwhelmed, so, the phone kept ringing and it looked like it never stopped ringing, so we stayed -- so when my sister, younger sister, came home we were so glad to see her. And my mother found out later that when the doctors saw all these people coming in with blood and the sheets pulled, with the sheets covered, over the gurneys, like where are all these people coming from?, and they said the doctor broke down and cried &#039 ; cause my sister, he asked her how old she was and she just did that [shows four fingers], and blood was streaming on her clothes [points down face]. But thank God she wasn&#039 ; t severely injured. So we were happy to see her, but when I saw the word deaths, I lost it. And I had probably forgotten I had given Addie my purse, and, uh, that&#039 ; s the first time I had ever lost a friend. And, uh, we spent the night over a neighbor&#039 ; s house. And I do remember going to school the next day, and the elementary teacher, they knew my father, and, uh, they said, &#039 ; Are you going to be OK?&#039 ; and, I think we were glad to go to school to get away from all of the, uh, chaos. And, uh, I&#039 ; ll never forget, though, the next day, it&#039 ; s probably when I got out of school, I&#039 ; ll never forget this as long as I live, the doorbell rang, and I answered the door, and it was Dr. King, Martin Luther King, his brother A.D. Williams King, and, uh, Dick Gregory, and was one other minister, let&#039 ; s see, Ralph Abernathy. And I&#039 ; ll never forget, because they had those doors that open like this [swinging gate motion towards herself] back in the day, and I remember I shook his hand. And people always say, &#039 ; Did you say anything to him?&#039 ; and I said well, I knew it was too sad to say anything to him, I knew he came for business to see my dad and then I realized they were going to go pay tribute, visit the families of the girls. I do remember my dad visiting -- I think it was that, before they got there, or either another day -- Mrs. McNair. And I&#039 ; ll never forget this as long as I live, because that was her only child, and she was at her mother&#039 ; s home, and she was sitting like she was in a state of shock -- and she was at Ms. Pippen&#039 ; s, her mother&#039 ; s home -- and they were trying to get her to eat, and I remember hugging her, I didn&#039 ; t know what to say, and I know my dad was paying his, visiting the families, I just remember going over to the McNair&#039 ; s, uh, her mother&#039 ; s house, and it was like she was in a daze, uh. I remember they had two separate funerals, I went to Carole&#039 ; s that Tuesday, seemed like it was so soon, and then the next one, that Wednesday, the three. I remember, I think my dad took me, but I was in a room like, not on the main floor, but it was just throngs of people. And I just remember looking like I was in a daze, with all these people, and I couldn&#039 ; t be near my friend&#039 ; s casket. I learned later that Denise had a viewing, but no one else had a viewing, and, uh, I found that out through the Spike Lee documentary. But it was like, I remember Ms. McNair fainting at the cemetery. Now that part I don&#039 ; t remember how I, would, &#039 ; cause I couldn&#039 ; t go to -- there were two different cemeteries, so I couldn&#039 ; t remember -- but I remember going to Denise&#039 ; s burial, and I don&#039 ; t know how my dad did that -- you know how some things are vague in your mind? -- that part, but I know that Carole, Denise -- I mean Cynthia, Denise, and Addie -- had the same, um, funeral. And -- that was the saddest day of my life. The bombing, saying goodbye -- not really saying goodbye to my friends, it&#039 ; s just -- I can almost see why Ms. Robinson didn&#039 ; t want to have a mass funeral, because it was just like, it was just so many people, but I guess people wanted to say goodbye to four beautiful girls. Did life turn back to normal? Not for me, because the sound of that day still reverberated in my mind for about 10 years. And when I went off to college I said I&#039 ; m not going to think about it, I&#039 ; m going to forget it, I&#039 ; m going to put it behind me. About two or three days, a week after the bombing, there was a loud noise at our home. My heart start beating fast and I remember shooting out the house like a rocket, only to discover that nobody in my house followed me outside. Then I found out later my sister had fallen out of bed. So that&#039 ; s how nervous I was, my heart was pounding. Also, I had a neighbor across the street that worked in a nightclub, and he had a walkie-talkie -- I can&#039 ; t remember was that before the church bombing or after the bombing -- and, he said he heard, say, &#039 ; Get that nigger Cross next.&#039 ; So I think it was before the bombing, because Birmingham was really -- that was after, it might have been before Dr. King&#039 ; s &#039 ; I Have a Dream&#039 ; speech -- and anybody that was associated with Dr. King, like A.D. Williams King, his brother&#039 ; s home, was bombed, the A.G. Gaston hotel was bombed, and then, I noticed, I&#039 ; m noticing, a little before the bombing, they had Dynamite Hill, where they found dynamite on the streets. So, I lived in fear in Birmingham, because of, not that my dad told me, but we learned from the neighbors they were out front of the house with rifles. And, so, my mom always said they think the reason they didn&#039 ; t bomb out home is because we lived on a dead-end street, and it would have been hard for them to throw the dynamite or plant the dynamite with all our neighbors in there. We did realize we had an informant, black guy who was an informant in our neighborhood, who lived across the street, and they were saying that he informed a lot of the people about the activities of my dad, and Dr. King with the church. And, uh, he was a alcoholic -- this is adult, hearing adults say so things, so my father would never tell me that -- but I believed it because when you start reading articles, there were people who informed and got paid to infiltrate where Dr. King would be. And, I always believed because my father, later understood, because my father allowed Dr. King to use the church, or anybody associated with Dr. King, later learned that&#039 ; s why we would be in harm&#039 ; s way. I&#039 ; ll never forget, though, some years later I heard my dad do an interview in our church in Birmingham, in Atlanta, &#039 ; cause he had had a stroke, and that&#039 ; s when they had reopened the investigation, of 2001 and 2002, for -- I forgot the guy&#039 ; s name, but in -- Bobby Frank Cherry in 2002, I testified in that trial -- and, in 2001, I don&#039 ; t know why I can&#039 ; t ever call that man&#039 ; s name, but -- Thomas Blanton. ANDERSON: It was Blanton, OK, yeah. I&#039 ; m sorry, I -- CROSS: OK, well, he blamed himself for the bombing, and he was giving them all the information about, &#039 ; cause he had testified about from the grand jury, and one of my neighbors brought my dad over to Birmingham for that. So, I told him after the interview, &#039 ; Dad, I love you, and you were courageous to let Dr. King use the church, because if not your church, any church would have been bombed. Dr. King tried to make a difference, and you were courageous.&#039 ; So, Birmingham, I know was supposed to have been integrated the spring of &#039 ; 64, the downtown district -- I know we could try on clothes and go there, but it&#039 ; s just that at the time that the church was bombed, after Dr. King&#039 ; s speech, I would have never thought that would happen. And, I guess I thought everything was kinda settled in Birmingham, but I think the Ku Klux Klan is, what I read, they were angry because the schools were going to be integrated. So, I don&#039 ; t know why they chose to bomb the church -- I believe it was because Dr. King, and my dad allowed him to use the church. When you look at, back at the trials, they said they didn&#039 ; t know anybody was going to be in there, but they, they have the sign out there and knew that. So, I did go to that trial, 14 years later, living in Atlanta, I was upset that it took so long. I don&#039 ; t hate the bombers, because I believe if you&#039 ; re taught racism, and, uh, superior race, you&#039 ; re taught hatred -- I wasn&#039 ; t taught hatred, I didn&#039 ; t grow up in that type of environment -- I really feel sorry for them, because they didn&#039 ; t get a chance to know Cynthia Wesley, to know Addie, to know Carole, or their family. They weren&#039 ; t out in the streets throwing rocks or cursing nobody out. They were in a place of safety. Uh, one of my favorite sayings which is that on that plaque in the church, it say -- and that was put there before they even know who did that bombing -- it says, &#039 ; May men learn to replace bitterness and hatred with love and understanding.&#039 ; So my message is, what we learned that Sunday about a love that forgives. I wasn&#039 ; t taught to hate. I did want to trip up, uh, Robert Chambliss in the courtroom, when I saw him in the hallway, because he seemed like he was so happy. I wish I could have asked him -- I don&#039 ; t think back them I would have been that bold to ask him -- &#039 ; cause he always said he didn&#039 ; t do it -- &#039 ; Why would you plant dynamite on a church, knowing that kids would be there?&#039 ; I can&#039 ; t, I wish I knew. Uh, when I went to the 2001 trial, came back here for that, Thomas Blanton, what infuriated me was they could walk through the courts, no shackles -- I think when they convicted him, he had to walk out with, with the handcuffs. And then with Bobby Frank Cherry, he looked like a little old deacon man who lived his life, and I testified in that one, &#039 ; cause a lot of the older people were gone. So, uh, the best thing that I think that came out of the bombing, if I had to look for a glimmer of light and a rainbow that is in that window over there, it&#039 ; s that in 1964, I like to think that Lyndon Baines Johnson signed the Civil Rights Bill that we could go to public accommodations like the hotels, and anywhere we wanted to go if we had money to spend -- it was a start. And I like to think, not only those other two little boys that got killed that Sunday, or Cynthia, Denise, Addie, or Carole, and that document they show over there, I think they&#039 ; re angels of change. So, that gives me hope that -- one day, people can sit down and have differences, whether you&#039 ; re a black, white, Hispanic, non-denomination, gay, lesbian, whatever, that we can agree to disagree, that we might not like you, but when you act on your hate, to take out a life, I hope that they remember what happened over there, and see those beautiful pictures on the inside, that they can rethink. And, so, sometimes we can&#039 ; t explain what make people do things, and they said, people who, &#039 ; hurt people hurt people,&#039 ; so, I don&#039 ; t know whether they were hurt, I wish I could get into their minds, I don&#039 ; t know, but I have no hate for them. But I miss my friends, but I like to think that, angels of change. If I have to get something to smile about, that they&#039 ; re no longer here to suffer the injustices of this world, but they were a cat, their death was a catalyst to make a change in the Civil Rights Movement. That&#039 ; s what I like to see it as. Uh, when we left here in &#039 ; 68, my dad was called into, uh, to Alabama State University, where he worked in, I think the Baptist Student Union and taught sociology. And then, when he went to Atlanta, in &#039 ; 72, he, it was interesting, he -- it was interesting -- he was called to be -- an associate minister of a church, and they had a Canadian pastor. It was a transitional area, where the whites had moved out, but this particular pastor and the church, those who remained in the church, that we&#039 ; re not going to leave this community. Someone asked my dad once, or asked me, &#039 ; Your dad left the movement.&#039 ; And I said this at his homecoming, going service, &#039 ; He opened up the doors, he was not marching the streets, but God called him into a reconciliation-type ministry.&#039 ; And I think what happened in that church, he was trained to work with pastors of all colors, all denominations. And he got this award in Atlanta called the Fred Patterson Award, because of his activism in the community among blacks and whites. And, what better person that that would happen to, a person who, a church was bombed, he had no animosity, but to bring churches together. And I said that at his homegoing, and I told them about this hymn that described my dad&#039 ; s life, &#039 ; In Christ there is no east or west, in him no south or north, but one great fellowship of love throughout this whole wide world ; join brothers, join hands dear brothers of the faith, whatever your race may be, who serves the somethings da da da,&#039 ; but it was, it describes my father. And so, when they told me that, I&#039 ; m like, &#039 ; He didn&#039 ; t leave the movement,&#039 ; and then I thought about, well, all of us are called to different drummers, his was working with churches of interfaith of different colors, to, to whatever our differences. And I think that was more of a healing ministers. I think there are some people who can march the streets, there&#039 ; s some people in the suites making a difference, but his was in the churches with the different denominations. And I thank God that I got a chance to see my dad do that. And, uh, there were articles written about him, he got calls, I mean calls to preach at different churches, of different races, because of what he went through over there. Now when I went to college, in &#039 ; 68, I went to Tuskegee, I did not talk about the bombing, it was like, &#039 ; Yeah, I&#039 ; m getting away from Alabama, I don&#039 ; t want to remember that.&#039 ; And it was only if people knew who my dad was they wanted to talk about it. And I started having headaches in Tuskegee, and I had squashed the memory, and then only to find out I was having anxiety attacks, because I had never really gotten over the bombing ; I was still hearing noises. And my hands were shaking ; when people asked me why I trembled, I just said, &#039 ; I&#039 ; m nervous.&#039 ; So I had squashed all the memories, and it was like, &#039 ; I&#039 ; m free, I&#039 ; m in college, I can do this, do this, do this, forget Bombingham.&#039 ; And I&#039 ; ll never forget, when somebody had me do a presentation at our church academy, I think it was in the &#039 ; 90s, and -- I thought I was ready to talk about it, I broke down like it was yesterday. Because I had forgotten it and didn&#039 ; t want to talk about it. So now, I still cry, and it&#039 ; s 50 years, almost. I don&#039 ; t know why I still cry. But I guess that -- day was so painful. And, I used to apologize for my tears, and somebody said, &#039 ; No, you, they need to still see it hurts.&#039 ; And I look at the church -- I don&#039 ; t know, but -- I must remember, I said, like the Jews keep the Holocaust alive, I have keep the memories of my girls, my friends alive, because they&#039 ; re no longer here. And when I&#039 ; m working with the SCLC women, when we do voter registration, and we did this on Auburn Avenue -- it&#039 ; s a large street festival in Atlanta -- we register people to vote. We can&#039 ; t tell them who to vote for, because that&#039 ; s a nonprofit organization. And one lady told me she doesn&#039 ; t vote -- and I, and she&#039 ; s a black lady -- and I said, &#039 ; Can I ask you,&#039 ; she said &#039 ; I don&#039 ; t vote,&#039 ; I said, &#039 ; Can I give you some reasons why you should vote?&#039 ; And she said she&#039 ; d listen to me, she looked like she might have been 50 years old or, 40-ish, it&#039 ; s hard to tell, I said, &#039 ; Vote for Dr. King, his voice is silenced. Medgar Evers.&#039 ; That&#039 ; s, I called the roll, I said, &#039 ; I&#039 ; m a survivor of a terroristic attack.&#039 ; I said, &#039 ; I didn&#039 ; t say that when I was growing up, but as somebody interviewed me in Atlanta said I witnessed a terror.&#039 ; I didn&#039 ; t think of it like that. I said, &#039 ; I lost four beautiful friends. They were in a place of safety. Vote for Addie Mae Collins, who was 14. Vote for Cynthia Wesley, 14, her voice was silenced. Vote for Denise McNair, an only child, who was 11. And Carole Robinson, 14, or Addie Mae Collins.&#039 ; And she said, she listened, she said, &#039 ; I&#039 ; ll think about it.&#039 ; But I try to remind people why they should vote, because in 1965 they signed the Voting Rights Bill. Your voice is your vote. There were people whose lives were taken because they didn&#039 ; t want them to have the rights of freedom to vote, or go into certain places, because of hatred. You have that voice. And, so, I&#039 ; m constantly, uh, getting a chance to speak to groups about my experience. When I took care of my dad, in when he, when my mom died suddenly in 2003, because we knew -- Can I just go get another tissue? OK, I don&#039 ; t know that I have any more in there. ANDERSON: We can stop if you need to. CROSS: OK, I just need to get another tissue. OK, thank you. ANDERSON: No, we don&#039 ; t have to stop. And if you need me to go get you some, I will, &#039 ; cause like I said. I should have brought a whole box for both of us. CROSS: Guess you didn&#039 ; t know you would have a crybaby here. ANDERSON: No. CROSS: OK, OK. Thank you. ANDERSON: You&#039 ; re welcome. CROSS: Uh, when I was taking care of my dad in 2000 and, he died 2007, there was a call in 2006 from Clemson University. And this lady, black lady, she was, she left a message, she wanted to speak to my dad, and I called her back and she wanted him to speak, and I said, &#039 ; I&#039 ; m his daughter Barbara, my dad&#039 ; s caregiver, uh, he had a stroke and, I uh, when my mom died I moved in to be his caregiver, 2004.&#039 ; And she said, &#039 ; Well--&#039 ; I said, &#039 ; But I do speaking engagements.&#039 ; So she said, &#039 ; Can you send me your bio.&#039 ; I said, &#039 ; Sure, I was a survivor, I was in the church that day.&#039 ; So she asked me how much to charge. I told her. She said, &#039 ; We can do way better than that.&#039 ; But she gave me a nice amount. They came picked me up, but the, the Alphas put on a -- since Dr. King was an Alpha, in the Alpha fraternity, they had a, and this was the 25th anniversary, of the, the holiday celebration. And the theme was, uh, &#039 ; Live the Dream, Be the Dream, 25 Years of Excellence.&#039 ; And I went through the ABCs of the movement, and -- talked about the experience in Birmingham, about the life of Dr. King, about how met him, and his drum major instinct. But I keep the memory of my friends alive, and I&#039 ; m sure I cried then, too. When Spike Lee did the documentary, now that was really an honor. We got a call in Atlanta in the late 1990s, and -- I wanted to meet Spike Lee, so I said, &#039 ; Daddy,&#039 ; -- cause I think we had taken my father&#039 ; s car keys from him -- &#039 ; I&#039 ; ll drive you down to the King Center.&#039 ; So, I shared with him what I shared with you, and he said, &#039 ; Do you want to be in the documentary with your dad?&#039 ; And I said, &#039 ; I would feel honored to.&#039 ; So, we had lunch with him. He had his film crew, &#039 ; cause I thought he was just going to be interviewing, I didn&#039 ; t know he was going to be rolling tape. And, you know, some parts they cut out, and -- But when he put the piece together, and they came, we came, I came to Atlanta for the premiere, was at, I think was at one of the -- movie theaters downtown, they had a reception at the High Museum. But when I saw the documentary in its entirety, oh, I cried, because I didn&#039 ; t know I was going to see the morgue scenes, and that -- And I looked at it again last night, it was, I try to make myself sometime look at it to go back over in my mind, be, re, be reminded, of those pictures that I never forget. But I&#039 ; m glad he showed the morgue scenes, because he had to show -- what four little girls look like in life prior to September the 15th, and then the morgue scene to show the severity of what hatred looks like. So I&#039 ; m glad he did that. It was hard to look at, but he had to show the reality of it. And, just like when men go to war sometimes -- I think Bush didn&#039 ; t want to show the caskets coming back -- but we have to be reminded-- ANDERSON: It&#039 ; s the same thing. CROSS: And it happened. ANDERSON: And Ms. Till, showing-- CROSS: Right, right, and I met Ms. Till, now I&#039 ; m reminded that you should say that, when I came over on one of the tours, she was with John Lewis&#039 ; group, and I come over here every year with Ms. Lowery&#039 ; s group. And, she was in a wheelchair, somebody, I didn&#039 ; t know it was her, somebody said, &#039 ; That&#039 ; s Emmitt Till&#039 ; s mother,&#039 ; and I went up to her, cause she was at the corner where that, the uh, that -- signage is, with the church, and somebody was taking her picture, and I said, &#039 ; Ms. Till, I&#039 ; m Barbara Cross, I am so honored to meet you, this was the church my father pastored at the time of the bombing, I&#039 ; m Reverend John Cross&#039 ; s daughter Barbara.&#039 ; And she, her daughter took a picture -- I wish I had that picture -- and I said, &#039 ; Thank you for what you did by letting the world see what hatred did to your son. You were courageous, and it&#039 ; s still shown out there.&#039 ; I said, &#039 ; Cause sometimes we try to cover up hatred, but when you see it in the raw, and what it looks like, hopefully someone would get the message, I don&#039 ; t want this to happen to my child, I don&#039 ; t want this to happen to my sister and brother.&#039 ; So I really did, and that does remind you of what Spike Lee did there. He had to, to show with his camera what -- four beautiful girls look like when they came out the church. So I&#039 ; ve been blessed to really share messages as a substitute teacher for Dekalb County, cause I retired BellSouth to take care of my dad, I&#039 ; m so glad I did that, to spend -- I was a mama&#039 ; s girl, so my dad, I got a chance to get closer to him -- and, his, to take care of him, because I don&#039 ; t know what it was like for my dad -- to go through that rubble. And, in many interviews, he says he has nightmares. I cry, because I remember him saying in an interview or somewhere else that he started going through that rubble -- they said, &#039 ; Oh, Reverend Cross, don&#039 ; t go through there.&#039 ; -- but they say a lot of times when dynamite goes off, they set one charge for everybody to come out, and then they set another charge, that when you&#039 ; re out there, you think it&#039 ; s safe, and it goes off again. He said, &#039 ; Oh, no.&#039 ; He said, &#039 ; My children are in here, all these kids are in here, I gotta be sure everybody&#039 ; s OK.&#039 ; And he heard somebody saying &#039 ; Addie. Addie with Sarah.&#039 ; And I was the only survivor over there. And, uh, he said when he got a few feet under, it&#039 ; s like they were all blown on top of each other. And he never did describe that too us, it&#039 ; s just what I heard, I wouldn&#039 ; t dare ask him, but I heard him tell somebody interview he still has nightmares. And, I told you I heard him say he blamed himself, and I said, &#039 ; Oh, no, daddy,&#039 ; I kissed him, I said, &#039 ; You were courageous.&#039 ; So, Birmingham, even though I know they&#039 ; re trying to change the image with the Birmingham Pledge, cause I came back one year to accept an award for my dad from the Birmingham Pledge -- Jim Roch, does he still have that? -- OK. That&#039 ; s the only thing I can see, maybe because I don&#039 ; t live here, the positive spin they&#039 ; re trying to put, no place for hatred. And I think, because of what happened over there, they&#039 ; re trying to change that image. But someone once said, I don&#039 ; t know whether it was Dr. King, that you could pass laws, but you can&#039 ; t legislate people&#039 ; s hearts. So, hopefully, I know people, a lot of people are always coming over to the church, I just hope that people will remember that -- even that day that church was became their tomb -- that, I like to think it was a catalyst for change, for people&#039 ; s hearts becoming changed, and realize that -- it&#039 ; s something about a death of a child, of innocence, that will change a person&#039 ; s heart before an older black man or older black woman. Because people can relate to children, a innocence, I don&#039 ; t think it would have been a change if it had been men or women. I don&#039 ; t think so. I think hearts were changed because they were little babies. That life hadn&#039 ; t begun. ANDERSON: Can you tell me, if you remember, or if you remember your father talking about, the weeks and months after this happened. You mentioned that the phone just was ringing off the hook at the home. What was it like at the church? CROSS: What happened, they couldn&#039 ; t meet anymore at the church, because they had a architect to come in, and I remember we would meet at Dr. -- A.G. Gaston&#039 ; s, he had several funeral homes, but we used his business college auditorium at no charge, I found that out later. And, my dad had, they said, uh, they had several -- donations from all around the world. And that window, I remember -- that&#039 ; s, I think that&#039 ; s the summer we visited my grandmother, my maternal grandmother in rural Virginia -- that Mr. Petts or Pitts, I forgot which last name is that designed the window -- he came and talked with my dad, and that&#039 ; s how he got ideas to do the window. And it&#039 ; s supposed to be representing, I remember my dad telling me the plan -- and I remember the dedication of that window, it was on my birthday, June 6, 1965, now we still have that program -- but it&#039 ; s supposed to represent a black man, suffering on a cross like Jesus, with one hand like this saying &#039 ; Stop the violence,&#039 ; and this other hand reaching out for forgiveness and love. And then there&#039 ; s some little, little dots, like little lines, look like little minus signs going all the way across the middle, and that&#039 ; s supposed to be like, the black man being crucified with the dots at his side like the black man in the South. And, at the bottom, and it&#039 ; s a beautiful rainbow over top of the black man&#039 ; s head, and it&#039 ; s supposed to be like, a better day is going to come. A sunshine will come from all of this pain. And at the bottom of the window is a plaque or the little -- part of the ceiling -- I don&#039 ; t know what you call it, a little shelf-like thing of the window, or the bottom -- but, not on the window but away from the window, that has in memory of, and the girls&#039 ; names. And, if the sun is hitting that window, I don&#039 ; t know whether you&#039 ; ve seen it on the inside, it&#039 ; s just beautiful, it&#039 ; s just like wow, but if it&#039 ; s dark at night you can&#039 ; t see the beauty of that window. And I think it was shipped here in panels. But he talked with my dad for the, that summer. So it was dedicated &#039 ; 65, so they must have shipped it the early part of &#039 ; 65, but I know they dedicated it in &#039 ; 65, June the 6th, because I have that program. But, uh, we met -- at L.R. Hall Auditorium, that was generously donated. But my parents, I&#039 ; ll never forget, when my father would go on speaking -- I learned this through articles I&#039 ; ve seen sometime later, because a lot of time he didn&#039 ; t tell us, he told my mom, but he didn&#039 ; t tell us -- he would go and receive donations on behalf of the church and speak. Ah, but one that was really -- and I remember my mom talking about this one -- when Mrs. McNair went, my dad, and my mom -- I can&#039 ; t remember whether Mr. McNair went -- and, it has them on a plane, they&#039 ; re, I don&#039 ; t know whether they&#039 ; re leaving California, but my mother said, the, the pla, picture on the plaque that she has, that there was a artist that gave her a oil painting -- and I&#039 ; m sure that&#039 ; s in the studio, his, their studio, used to be in the house, probably in his studio -- and they said wasn&#039 ; t a dry eye -- in the place -- for them. And that was the, I&#039 ; m almost thinking that was the same year, of the bombing or &#039 ; 64, cause she didn&#039 ; t have her other two kids until two years after the bombing. She has Kimberly and Lisa, and I always said they&#039 ; re her miracle babies. But, my mother said wasn&#039 ; t a dry eye in the place. And, she, Denise was a beautiful girl, inside and out. And she was happy-go-lucky, I remember that. And, uh, she said wasn&#039 ; t a dry eye, but I remember that my parents, they got, they still got calls. Uh, there was, my dad did say this, and it angered me and I know it angered him, they said when they started investigating the bombing, they would ask my dad -- and they know he didn&#039 ; t bomb the church -- &#039 ; Do you have any friends or enemies when you left Virginia that would have bombed your church?&#039 ; I was like, get out, and I was angry and I know my dad was angry, but they know that, but that, angered me. He said he got those kind of questions, they investigated him. Get real. Uh, -- I do remember, uh, like I said, the trials, I was given a pin, and I have it, by the FBI. Let me show it to you, I think I put it in here. I came to a symposium over here, must have been in 2004 at Birmingham-Southern College, look what it says, &#039 ; For my role testifying in the trials, justice for the little girls,&#039 ; and it has the emblem, and the insignia, the FBI insignia, I have four of them. At first I said, &#039 ; Why did they give me four?&#039 ; I said, &#039 ; Well, maybe because it was four little girls that were killed,&#039 ; but I try not to put it on because I don&#039 ; t want to lose it. And I&#039 ; ll always keep this. On this side, it says &#039 ; 0-1-5,&#039 ; they only had about 200 of them made, and I&#039 ; ll cherish that for the rest of my life. In fact, I want to be buried with that on me. Justice for the little girls. And that was given to me by one of the FBI directors at the symposium, and that particular -- I&#039 ; ll never forget, John Lewis spoke, and he had just came out with his book, Walking with the Wind -- and, the, -- Mr. McNair was on the program -- I can&#039 ; t remember if Mrs. McNair was there -- they had, from the four different trials. They had from the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church bombing, another guy who was firebombed, his home was firebombed for the NAACP -- his name is on that memorial marker, I can&#039 ; t forget, I forgot, I can&#039 ; t remember his name. Also, Myrlie Evers was there, these were old trials, and it was called, what was the name of the symposium?, Civil Rights: Justice Remembered, or, it was something about the old trials, I can&#039 ; t remember the exact name -- ANDERSON: Mmm hmm CROSS: But it was a beautiful symposium talking about hate crimes, and how now a lot of the older hate crimes were becoming solved. So I remember that. And I think I did tell you that I was at the dedication of the memorial marker in 1989. And there was the whole street that was closed off facing the Southern Poverty Law Center -- Rosa Parks was there, each family name that&#039 ; s on that memorial marker, most of them lost their life to the hand, by the hand of the Ku Klux Klan, except for Rosa Parks&#039 ; s name was on there because of the difference she made because of the Montgomery bus boycott. So they had a dinner, and they had a -- I can&#039 ; t remember where that was in Montgomery -- but that day, that Sunday, that whole street was closed off, and each family name that was on there, they paid our way -- well, they paid for the hotel, and, it was just awesome. But it was so many names on there that I had never heard of before, but we had, we represented the family of Addie Mae Collins. I remembered, uh, Ms. McNair being there, uh, Shirley Wesley, who was adopted by the Wesleys after Cynthia died -- and she cries in that documentary, do you remember seeing her cry? -- OK, I&#039 ; m surprised I didn&#039 ; t cry on there, I probably was just looking all everywhere, I can&#039 ; t believe I didn&#039 ; t cry, unless he didn&#039 ; t get me crying, because a lot of that you&#039 ; d say and they&#039 ; d cut parts of it out. But when Spike Lee said this, and this kind of sums it up, it&#039 ; s something about that raw emotion that overcomes those who talk about that, that you never get over it. ANDERSON: How could it not? CROSS: My sisters, they won&#039 ; t talk about it. My brother either. ANDERSON: Well, I wanted to ask about them. CROSS: They don&#039 ; t talk about it. Even the one that got cut in the head, they don&#039 ; t want to remember. The one next to me, when I was on Oprah show, she -- ANDERSON: You need some more? You need this bag? CROSS: Uh, huh. I don&#039 ; t think I have any more in there, Laura. I&#039 ; m sorry. ANDERSON: No, don&#039 ; t apologize. OK. CROSS: Was talking about my sisters ANDERSON: You were talking about, yeah, your sisters and your brother-- CROSS: Uh, Michael, all I remember, and I don&#039 ; t know whether this is the type of effect he has, he used to always say when he got to be a teenager, that he never wanted to work for a white person. That&#039 ; s what he said. My younger sister, she doesn&#039 ; t talk about it. She did an article in one of the church papers about -- because most people don&#039 ; t hear about her, and I just, she doesn&#039 ; t probably remember at four, I don&#039 ; t know. The sister next to me, she became militant, but she said it wasn&#039 ; t the church bombing that made her militant. When we moved to Montgomery -- or was it here? -- whatever school she integrated, it might have been in Birmingham -- it was Ramsey High, so it was here, &#039 ; cause I changed to go to Ramsey my last year at Ullman, and I went my senior year at Ramsey -- she said they had a sign that said &#039 ; Nigger Crossing,&#039 ; and the teachers didn&#039 ; t do anything, and let them have the sign. And so, at cafeteria time, uh, they would space out all over -- no, they had to sit together -- so, one time, they were angry about the &#039 ; nigger crossing&#039 ; sign -- oh, they would, used to put thumbtacks in the students&#039 ; seats, so they, they were bad about that. So they said one day, we&#039 ; ll fix &#039 ; em, one black sat at every table, and the teachers try to make them move, they said, &#039 ; We&#039 ; re not stopping them from sitting with us,&#039 ; and she said that was what outraged her. Because the staff, and the administrators were behind the white kids, and they were like, they were the enemies. So they, so when she, they got settled -- when I went over there it was OK -- but that&#039 ; s what she experienced, and that&#039 ; s what she said. It wasn&#039 ; t just the church bombing, but about the sign that said &#039 ; nigger crossing,&#039 ; and they didn&#039 ; t stop the kids, so, that&#039 ; s where she was irate and that made her bitter. ANDERSON: So she was one of the students who integrated Ramsey. CROSS: She was one of the ones. Very smart. ANDERSON: Man. CROSS: She was two years younger than me, cause I went over there in &#039 ; 67 to &#039 ; 68, and I graduated from Ramsey. I was in the choral, and I was in the drama. And I&#039 ; ll never forget my English teacher, she gave, I got an A+, she was real sweet, but I had no problems with them, I, I, I loved it, but I guess she was, had to go through the integration process. And was treated like that, so that&#039 ; s what she, uh, but they, they toughed it out. ANDERSON: Now how did your family come to decide to be part of that as well? CROSS: My family? ANDERSON: Yeah, I mean-- CROSS: I think probably because it was a good opportunity for my sister to go there, so I&#039 ; m sure my father encouraged her to do that. Alma was very smart, she was like, very studious, like I like to look at TV all the night, she would be reading Gone with the Wind, she was, and she&#039 ; s still smart to this day. I was, I always said I graduated &#039 ; Thank You Laude,&#039 ; hee hee hee, and I was interested in creative writing, I wanted to be a journalist, but my senior year of college, I mean my freshman year of college, I didn&#039 ; t want to go to University of Alabama and experience the hatred. So, my neighbor went to Tuskegee, so I visited her at Tuskegee, fell in love with the campus, so I was majored, English major, liberal arts, and took journalism courses. So, I always knew I wanted to be a writer, a journalist -- I asked enough questions to be -- but, I just didn&#039 ; t pursue it. I, my first job when I graduated was with the telephone company, so I said I&#039 ; m in communications, but a different type of way. So, but I did go take a course a Georgia State for journalism. But, yeah, my sister experienced that. But, like I said, my brother doesn&#039 ; t talk about it, he just -- he, they say he&#039 ; s bipolar or schizophrenic, and we didn&#039 ; t know whether the bombing had anything to do with why he said he didn&#039 ; t want to work for any white person. He&#039 ; s now living in New York, he&#039 ; s bipolar, manic depressive -- but they say it&#039 ; s more of a chemical imbalance, nothing to do with, that we know of from the church bombing. But I&#039 ; m sure that has some influence, and being five years old, to not understand and be in a place -- &#039 ; cause I know it affects me with crying -- but I know my other siblings, they don&#039 ; t talk about it, so I don&#039 ; t know whether it&#039 ; s painful, or -- But I will tell people in a minute, after the fact of college, because when I went to college, I shut down, I didn&#039 ; t want to talk about it. But after people started asking me to do things in the &#039 ; 90s, they knew my dad, if he couldn&#039 ; t speak anymore, they wanted me to, so I had to re-find my voice and share the story. So I keep it alive and keep my dad&#039 ; s memory alive, because I think it&#039 ; s important. ANDERSON: You know, today it&#039 ; s difficult to even imagine that you all went to school the next day. CROSS: Mmm hmm. But I think, I guess, it&#039 ; s, I guess our parents wanted us to have a sense of normalcy, because at home, everything was bombarded by the telephone, making arrangements for funerals, and like I said, I answered the door that Monday, but I didn&#039 ; t go to school the Tuesday and Wednesday -- I went to the service -- I&#039 ; m sure my other sisters and brothers, they went to school. ANDERSON: Mmm. CROSS: Uh, I&#039 ; m glad I did go to the service, it was a little closure. I just didn&#039 ; t say goodbye to them, because I didn&#039 ; t view them. But after seeing the documentary, I knew why I couldn&#039 ; t view Addie or the other three, and I didn&#039 ; t know about the viewing of Denise. I probably wouldn&#039 ; t have wanted to have gone to the viewing. Uh, we talked about the window and the three trials, and I was so glad to get guilty verdicts for those three men, I just hate that the timeframe took so long. But justice was finally done. And somebody once said that justice delayed is not justice denied, I think Rob, the guy, that U.S. Attorney General-- ANDERSON: No, Jones CROSS: Doug Jones, yeah. Yes, he came to my father&#039 ; s homegoing service. ANDERSON: MmmCROSS: Him and Sidney Sheldon. Sidney was the one -- I didn&#039 ; t know that they had people to, I guess to see if my dad could stand trial, I forgot what they called them -- but they can test the witness and be sure that they could be coherent. And it&#039 ; s ironic, because my father had had another stroke -- my parents, my mother and my siblings did not want me to take my dad to the second trial, the third one. I said, &#039 ; No, mom, I will be with him, and he can do this.&#039 ; That morning, my dad, I knocked on his door, he did not answer. He was roaming the hall, he hadn&#039 ; t had his medication, I said, &#039 ; Oh my God.&#039 ; So, I got room service to bring him breakfast up, got him dressed, got his medications, and one of the persons picked us up at the hotel and took us to the trial. Only thing I couldn&#039 ; t be out there because I was going to testify and my dad was in the room. But we came immediately after he testified and my testimony, we -- I&#039 ; m trying to think, did somebody take us up there? -- yeah, we, we came back to Atlanta. But I was worried, I said, &#039 ; Oh my God, I hope my dad doesn&#039 ; t have another stroke up here.&#039 ; So, they were kind, I think, with the questions, but he had to probably look at pictures. And, so I was so happy, I was, so we didn&#039 ; t know about the verdict of that one, &#039 ; til, I think it was a couple of days, but we were back in Atlanta. With the Thomas Blanton, I think that verdict came -- oh, with Chambliss -- that verdict came, I don&#039 ; t know whether that was the next day, but I think we stayed in Birmingham, I can&#039 ; t remember. But I was glad of all three of the verdicts. My father did receive a call that somebody wanted to do a deathbed confession, but he said he didn&#039 ; t have to meet him at a church, that he could just go in the church and kneel, but they said, the attorneys said that it was a lie. But I believe that when a person gets ready to leave the world and when anything they&#039 ; ve done they ready to make a confession, I believe that. So, they always said that fourth person, if I&#039 ; m not mistaken was Herman Cash. But it always amazed me that these people want to be like FBI informants to get off for what they did. So, it&#039 ; s just, but I guess they give up one person to get the other person. So, I&#039 ; m just glad that, it&#039 ; s not going to bring the girls back, but at least they could get some type of pay for some part of their life for what they did. ANDERSON: You know, people come here from all over the world every day -- CROSS: Mmm. Wow. ANDERSON: and they&#039 ; re on a pilgrimage. Um, and like I said, I know that your family had to live with what happened here every day, you live every day with what happened here. Um, and I had a question and it left me, but I wonder how you feel about the fact, if you were aware of it, that people do come here, seeking something, um, seeking to just stand in that church, and stand on what they will call sacred ground, and they&#039 ; ll refer to the girls as martyrs-- CROSS: Mmm hmm ANDERSON: Um, how that makes you feel now? CROSS: I guess I feel honored that people want to still go there, to stand in that place, and maybe kinda when they see that &#039 ; Angels of Change,&#039 ; kinda to reflect, that many decades ago, what it was like to see the German Shepard dogs, and the fire hose, and if they watch Eyes on the Prize -- cause somebody used to ask us, &#039 ; Did that really happen?&#039 ; I say, &#039 ; Yes. Those, Bull Connor, that existed, in the Kelly Ingram Park.&#039 ; And it&#039 ; s just amazing, historically, with this Civil Rights Institute right in front of the church, and with those stat, statues in Kelly Ingram Park, they really get a sense of, what it was like, even when they go through those, those monuments, with jail cells, with kids actually filled up the jail, because parents were afraid to lose their job. Or they see that vicious, gaping mouth of that dog with those teeth, that people were actually, they sicced those dogs on kids and adults, if they could. I&#039 ; m honored that they want to feel, just being there -- and just, taking it all in, especially to see the, the those signs out there, and I learned that when I Googled last year, about the church, that they had the side, a new monument on the side -- &#039 ; cause today was my first time seeing it, because we didn&#039 ; t have time to see it when we came on a tour, &#039 ; cause our bus was in an accident. So, I had had them to open up the church, but couldn&#039 ; t go really, I went through the front door and, and just gave them a hug. But, they said that that is one of the most questions that are asked is, &#039 ; Where was the dynamite planted?&#039 ; ANDERSON: Mmm hmm CROSS: And today I saw like a rose, a flower on each name, and then a mon, uh, I guess a flower wreath that had turned over, it makes me feel good that people still come, and even when we come and see busloads there. And one time, I&#039 ; ll never forget, cause I talk to people a lot, and when I&#039 ; m talking to our group, there some other guys that were there, there were two black guys, handsome guys, and I said, uh, &#039 ; If you want to hear my history, I was here, that was my dad.&#039 ; And he wrote me -- he worked for Glory Food Company, and he sent me a whole basket -- and he wrote a note, and it said, &#039 ; Thank you for sharing your history -- because I could feel, through your story, the impact of the bombing.&#039 ; So I&#039 ; m glad I did that. One time I was upset when I came over here, because John Lewis had a group and they had the Secret Service there, so, naturally, they were having to be sure that the church is protected. And he said, &#039 ; You can&#039 ; t come in.&#039 ; And I told him, &#039 ; This was my father&#039 ; s church, this is like coming home for me, and I understand, I respect what you&#039 ; re doing, but I have a group, too, and this is my&#039 ; -- I don&#039 ; t know whether they let me in or not, I can&#039 ; t remember, but I did say as much. I said, &#039 ; I was here the day of the bombing, and John Cross, my father,&#039 ; -- I understand he had to do what he did, but I had to let him know who I was -- &#039 ; I&#039 ; m not trying to do any harm, but I understand your job, too.&#039 ; That was the only time I got a little up, got ticked off, but I got over it. But I&#039 ; m glad you shared that with me, because sometimes I don&#039 ; t see who comes over there, but it&#039 ; s so good to know that people care and they still visit that. And I respect the minister now because I guess it&#039 ; s hard, &#039 ; cause you, you realize people want to make it a museum, it&#039 ; s not a museum, it&#039 ; s a active church. But people do remember, and I&#039 ; m honored that people remember. I&#039 ; m honored to do this interview, because a lot of times we get calls at my dad&#039 ; s house, I have had the home phone disconnected and just use my cell, or people write me and they want me, and I don&#039 ; t get a chance to write back to everybody. ANDERSON: Yeah, I was gonna ask about that -- CROSS: Uh huh ANDERSON: even now are you constantly approached? CROSS: I like speaking engagements, but one thing was the best thing I think I ever did. It was a little girl from Oregon, white, I didn&#039 ; t know what color she was, but she left a message on my dad&#039 ; s answering machine -- this happened to me about the year, probably a couple of years after he had died -- and she said, &#039 ; Hi, my name is&#039 ; whatever her name was, it was the mother calling, &#039 ; my daughter wants to interview Reverend Cross for a project she&#039 ; s doing for her school in Oregon.&#039 ; So I called back, I said, &#039 ; Hi, this is Barbara Cross, I&#039 ; m the daughter of Reverend John Cross, and my father is deceased.&#039 ; And I said, &#039 ; She can interview me.&#039 ; And she probably was not more than probably 10 or 11, so it&#039 ; s interesting, when adults get interviews, they get it mixed up. So, she had me coming out the bathroom at the time of the bombing and I survived, which was OK. But it was interesting, the guy who was a writer for this newspaper in Oregon, he said, he sent me the copy of the article, it was, &#039 ; Reflections from a Violent Past.&#039 ; And his name, he&#039 ; s a writer for Oregon -- Bob Welch -- and he sent me a box of chocolates, and his book that is a combination of all, a lot of his articles in the paper. And he said, &#039 ; To Barbara, Thanks for taking the time to share your history and whelming us in the process.&#039 ; And I was so honored that I called that little girl back. So, I&#039 ; m glad I called her back. And now I started thinking about calling him and saying, &#039 ; Well, I want you to whelm, overwhelm me and help me get my book written,&#039 ; but I haven&#039 ; t. I might still do that, he has a writing place in, uh, Oregon, it&#039 ; s overlooking a lake, I can&#039 ; t, I think it&#039 ; s outside of Portland. But, uh, but I thought that was so sweet, so it&#039 ; s little things like that. And, a lot of time, people at my church, they know, the kids doing projects, they want to interview me, but what I tell them, I say, &#039 ; You gonna have to,&#039 ; and a lot of them, they don&#039 ; t do it, I say, &#039 ; you need to tell me what you&#039 ; re writing, I want to see what you&#039 ; re writing,&#039 ; you know, a lot of time they won&#039 ; t do it, but they&#039 ; ll thank me. But I thought that was awesome. And the words may not have been exactly like that, but he said, &#039 ; Thanks for taking the time, to answer a little girl and whelming us in the process.&#039 ; So, I&#039 ; m gonna share my history, no matter how painful, because I tell even kids in school, when I&#039 ; m not here, I want you to tell my story. And a lot of time, when they see me crying, they ask me some awesome questions, they said, &#039 ; Ms. Cross, why did you give Addie your wallet?&#039 ; ANDERSON: Hmm hmmCROSS: I said, &#039 ; That&#039 ; s a good question. This is a girl thing. Uh, if your teacher sends you to the cafeteria, I mean to the office, and your class is going to school, boys don&#039 ; t do this, but girls say, &quot ; Here&#039 ; s my wallet, here&#039 ; s my book, save me a seat.&quot ; .&#039 ; And they say, &#039 ; Well Ms. Cross, did Addie have any parting words for you?&#039 ; This really got me. I know I&#039 ; m on camera, I&#039 ; m gonna say it, &#039 ; cause I&#039 ; m gonna be truthful, -- ANDERSON: We are running out of tape, so -- CROSS: OK, Sarah says I didn&#039 ; t see Addie that day. When I testified, she always calls me on this, and this is what I say. I didn&#039 ; t say it to her, because I don&#039 ; t like to upset her: &#039 ; You cannot know every step your sister makes, because you were in the bathroom.&#039 ; I did not give my wallet to Denise, I didn&#039 ; t know, I mean, Denise was in my sister&#039 ; s class. I was not that close to Carole Robinson or Cynthia Wesley. I gave it to Addie. And, so, they said that and I said, &#039 ; You know, she was telling me goodbye and I didn&#039 ; t realize,&#039 ; because her family say I didn&#039 ; t see her. And I was like, &#039 ; Wow.&#039 ; I got a chance to give her my wallet and didn&#039 ; t realize I was saying goodbye to her. So kids ask a lot of profound questions that make me think. ANDERSON: I&#039 ; m sure they do. CROSS: So. ANDERSON: Umm, we can get a new tape, or we can say -- CROSS: Whatever you want to -- ANDERSON: it is done. CROSS: Whatever you want-- ANDERSON: It is your decision. CROSS: Whatever you want me to answer, I will answer. If you think this is, did you, could you think of an area that you wanted to cover? This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=BCross2012.xml BCross2012.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Barbara Cross Description An account of the resource Barbara Cross discusses surviving the Sixteenth Street Church Bombing in great detail. Her father, Rev. John Cross Jr., was the pastor at the time. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 20121015C Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Till, Emmett, 1941-1955 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-10-15 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/dedd237dfe7cbaf2bdf720ef2667055c.png 47f08a13be3f67923d735c991791bbc2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Reuben Davis, II OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RDavisII19960320.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Bethel Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 March 20, 1996 Reuben Davis, II Interviewed on March 20, 1996 19960320D 1:13:39 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company United States. Navy--Stewards Bethel Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Reuben Davis, II Horace Huntley Video 1:|15(7)|32(3)|55(12)|72(1)|86(10)|100(12)|112(14)|125(2)|146(10)|163(5)|175(6)|188(15)|202(6)|215(3)|229(4)|244(3)|259(10)|275(1)|297(8)|317(8)|343(4)|361(12)|373(3)|385(7)|401(9)|412(14)|424(12)|441(13)|455(10)|476(10)|486(2)|501(12)|511(2)|522(11)|536(12)|545(10)|559(6)|571(14)|582(7)|597(6)|613(14)|626(3)|637(8)|650(10)|664(12)|677(14)|689(9)|703(11)|715(7)|727(2)|742(7)|756(5)|775(12)|785(1)|800(17)|810(3)|829(7)|853(7)|863(1)|878(10)|891(2)|912(2)|923(6)|939(4)|955(3)|973(17)|990(5)|999(3)|1018(3)|1027(8)|1037(12)|1050(12)|1063(1) 0 https://youtu.be/SzrLfAXbFVU YouTube video English 21 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mr. Reuben Davis for the Birmingham Civil Right Institute’s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College and today is March 20, 1996. Thank you Mr. Davis for coming and taking time out of your busy schedule today. 33.481, -86.9089 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 38 Family Background I would just like to start by asking general questions about your background. Tell me, where were your parents from? Reuben Davis speaks about his family's background coming from Montgomery County, Alabama and moving to Birmingham, Alabama prior to him being born. African Americans--Marriage ; Agriculture ; Coal Mining ; Family Birmingham (Ala.) ; Chrysler automobile ; Detroit (Mich.) ; Montgomery County (Ala.) ; Mount Meigs (Ala.) ; Tuskegee (Ala.) 189 Community Background What community were you raised up in? Reuben Davis explains about his community in the Collegeville neighborhood in Birmingham, where he lived all his life amongst a mostly black community with some Italian presence. African American Communities ; African Americans--Agriculture ; Eligible Voters ; Italians American Cast Iron Pipe Company ; Collegeville (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company ; Norwood (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Sarenton Mines (Birmingham, Ala.) ; United States Pipe and Foundry Company 406 Early Education - Hudson Elementary So is that where you started first grade at Hudson School? Reuben Davis explains his first days at Hudson Elementary School (now Hudson K-8) in Collegeville, Alabama, and how he tried to skip, but was punished by his mother and never tried it again. Skipping School ; Truancy Program Hudson K-8 (Birmingham, Ala.) 534 Early Education- Ullman and Parker High School When you left Hudson, where did you go? Reuben Davis speaks about the time he was at Ullman and Parker High School and how Black education wasn't as valued as it should've been. African Americans--Vocational education ; Black Educators ; Black School Systems ; Cable cars (Streetcars) ; Football ; Integration ; Uniforms Bessemer (Ala.) ; Collegeville (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Detroit (Mich.). Police Department ; Norwood (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Tuskegee Airmen, Inc. ; Tuskgee (Ala.) ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 886 Relationship With Birmingham Police Department I was going ask you that question about the relationship between the community and the Birmingham Police Department. Reuben Davis explains the lack of relationship they had with the police department, and how the only service they had was waste pick up. African American Community ; Mule ; Street Lights ; Waste Services Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Birmingham City Hall ; Birmngham (Ala.) ; Collegeville (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Ullman High School (Birmngham, Ala.) 1006 Working on The Railroad After High School After high school, what did you do? Reuben Davis talks about going to work for L &amp ; N Railroad right out of high school, and the limitations of the company due to racial discrimination. Black Engineers ; College ; Inspector ; Job opportunity ; Locomotive ; Oiler ; Railroad ; Work place discrimination Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company ; Tuskegee Institute ; Vanderbelt Crossings (Birmingham, Ala.) 1271 Drafted Into the Military Were you drafted in the service? Reuben Davis discusses his time being drafted into the Navy, and discovering that black men were becoming Naval officers, giving him a new perspective on his outlook of his career path. B-12 Program ; Blacks--Military--United States ; Naval officer ; Secretary of Navy ; United States. Navy--Stewards Europe ; Fargo Building (Boston, Mass.) ; Fort Benning (Ga.) ; Great Lakes (Ill.) ; Kennedy, John F. (1917-1963) ; New Orleans (La.) ; Newport Harbor (R.I.) ; Pacific Ocean ; Pearl Harbor (Hawaii) ; United States Military--Army ; Village Creek (Ala.) 1766 Returning to Birmingham, Lawsuit Against L&amp ; N Did you come directly back to Birmingham? Reuben Davis explains his first discrimination lawsuit he dealt with with L&amp ; N Railroad, about not being able to advance in the company because of his race. Machinist ; Race discrimination--United States ; Railroad Engineer Birmingham (Ala.) ; G.I. Bill ; Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company ; Nashville (Tenn.) ; Roosevelt, Franklin D. (Franklin Delano), 1882-1945 ; Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944 ; Tuskegee Institute 2076 Serving as Local Chairman For L&amp ; N Union You became a union representative? Reuben Davis becomes Union Representative and starts to make sure that people are doing what they are suppose to in their designated positions. Bible. New Testament ; Contracts ; Local Chairman ; Union Representative International Brotherhood of Firemen and Oilmen 2210 Fired From L&amp ; N Railroad How long did you remain after they started getting behind you? You actually lost your job? Reuben Davis discusses being fired from L&amp ; N Railroad because of not wanting to do certain work due to health issues. Oil Change ; Sabotage ; Tractor Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company 2489 Mechanic School &amp ; Work for J. Truitt Payne What did you do in the meantime? Reuben Davis talks about his time at J. Truitt Payne working as a mechanic until he leaves. Sick leave--United States Birmingham (Ala.) ; Flint (Mich.) ; Florida ; G.I. Bill ; General Motors Institute ; Industrial Mutual Association of Flint (Mich.) ; The Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944 2963 Working as the Mechanical Instructor at Dunbar High School Mr. Ephraim taught me auto mechanics and he said that there was an opening for a mechanic instructor at Dunbar. So, I called the principal to see about the job and maybe I'll might be able to get it. So, I called Mr. Abrams, he was the principal of Dunbar High School at the time and he asked me to come out there. I went out there. I had also worked on Ms. Nation’s car and she was crazy about me. Do you know Ms. Nation? Reuben Davis discusses how he was hired on at Dunbar High School in Bessemer, Alabama to teach auto mechanics. Black Educators ; Superintendant ; Teacher Dunbar High School (Bessemer, Ala.) 3118 Conflict With White Staff Member at Dunbar You had a problem between a Black man and a White man? Reuben Davis explains how one of the white staff members at Dunbar High School got into a confrontation with him, and when bringing it up to the black principal didn't help because of the discrimination still going on at the time. Football ; Physical Violence ; School Photographer ; Superintendant Abrams High School (Bessemer, Ala.) ; Miles College 3358 Fired and Rehired After Winning Lawsuits against L&amp ; N and Bessemer Board of Education From then, I started writing editorials. I have my first editorial I wrote for The Birmingham News. Later on, Mr. Branch called me one morning and wanted to know, “Davis, what about all this editorial writing?” I said, “What about it?” He said, “Davis, you know what I’m talking about.” He said, “Don’t say I didn’t tell you.” He was trying to tell me not to write. But, I continued to write. And, finally in 1970, the Bessemer Board of Education fired me and I won that back and retired. Reuben Davis talks about his lawsuits and winning them up against L&amp ; N Railroad and the Bessemer Board of Education. Editorials ; Lawsuits ; Teachers ; Termination Bessemer Board of Education (Ala.) ; Birmingham News ; Collegeville (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company 3443 Joining the Movement And, we know that this is through the 40s, 50s and in 1956, of course, something very significant happened in Birmingham with the NAACP being outlawed from operating in the State of Alabama. The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized. Reuben Davis talks about how he got started in the movement, and how he helped bring Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth to Birmingham. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Ladies Hebrew Benevolent Association (Selma, Ala.) ; Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Patterson, John Malcolm, 1921- ; Selma (Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Wallace, George C. (George Corley), 1919-1998 3578 Bethel Baptist Church Bombing What was your initial duties with the Movement? Were you one of the charter members of the Alabama Christian Movement? Did you join immediately? How did you get involved? Reuben Davis explains that he didn't get involved in the movement until his church was bombed. Bethel Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 3717 Meetings at Alabama Christian Movement How would you describe a mass meeting? Reuben Davis discusses how he was an armed guard for the movement, protecting the churches where the meeting was held. Armed Guards ; Police officers Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 3865 Incident at Arthur Shores's Home Was there any time that you were Attorney Shores’ home that any suspicious activity took place? Reuben Davis explains how he was protecting Arthur Shores home one night when it got attacked. Armed Guards ; Gunshot wounds ; Terror attacks Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 3924 Relationship Between Family and Church Members What was the relationship between you and other members of your church and your family as a result of your activities in the Movement? Reuben Davis talks about how his family was supportive while he was involved in the movement. Armed Guard ; Family Support Birmingham (Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 4009 Changes to The Movement As you look back on the Movement and if you had the ability, what would you change about the Movement? Reuben Davis talks about how the movement should've focused on economic rights as well as social Economic Rights ; Social Equality ; Social Rights Civil rights movement 4100 Involvement in Demonstrations Did you take part in any of the demonstrations? Reuben Davis explains how he took part in demonstrations in Bessemer, Alabama. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama Bessemer (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) 4127 Economic Changes Since the Movement Just in retrospect, as you look back on the Movement, and you talk about the social aspect versus the economic aspect, do you see anything that happened today that would lead in that direction that you would like to see go into? Reuben Davis discusses how Black people were thrown welfare unlike whites, and that from an economic standpoint things needed to change. African American single mothers ; Blacks--Attitudes ; Teen Pregnancy ; Welfare ; Whites--United States--Attitudes Bessemer (Ala.) ; Collegeville (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Mountain Brook (Ala.) 4268 Attending the Million Man March You attended the Million Man March, what did that mean to you? Reuben Davis talks about the need for his black brothers to come together during the Million Man March. Community ; Unity Amtrak ; Farrakhan, Louis ; Mall, The (Washington, D.C.)--Maps ; Million Man March (1995 : Washington, D.C.) 4355 Conclusion of Interview Mr. Davis, it’s really been great having you today. It’s obvious that we have a lot more to talk about. What I’d like to do is to really get you back and talk some more because that period between 1960 and the 1990s you were very active and you became county commissioner and we want to talk about that as well. So, I want to thank you for coming today and we’ll try to do this again. End of Interview Oral History Reuben Davis discusses his advocacy for employment equality, which includes serving in the labor union and filing multiple discrimination lawsuits against L&amp ; N Railroad. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mr. Reuben Davis for the Birmingham Civil Rights lnstitute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College and today is March 20, 1996. Thank you Mr. Davis for coming and taking time out of your busy schedule today. DAVIS: The pleasure is mine. HUNTLEY: I would just like to start by asking general questions about your background. Tell me, where were your parents from? DAVIS: Both of my parents are from Montgomery County. My dad came out of Tuskegee around Meigs, Alabama and my mother was born in Montgomery. HUNTLEY: When did they move to Birmingham? DAVIS: Well, they married in Montgomery and I was born in 1923. I have an older brother born about 1917, so somewhere in that area they came to Birmingham, around 1915 or 16 they moved to Birmingham for better employment. My dad was living on a farm around Meigs. HUNTLEY: Did he own his own farm? DAVIS: No. His father died early. And, so he had one brother and several sisters and my grandmother lived to be about 115 years old. She stayed there and educated two of her daughters on that farm and finally my uncle and my dad went to Mt. Meigs and brought my grandmother back here. But, my dad worked in the mines at first. HUNTLEY: Coal mines or ore mines? DAVIS: Coal mines. He worked coal mines for a short period of time, he and his brother. His brother stayed with the mines until around about 1950. He left and went to Detroit and started working for Chrysler. But, both of them worked a short period of time. My dad got scared and came out of the mine. HUNTLEY: How much education did your parents have? DAVIS: Well, my father&#039 ; s education was limited. I think he went maybe to the primary grades. My mother was similar. Education opportunities were very limited for both of them. HUNTLEY: Did she work outside of the home? DAVIS: No. My mother never worked out of the home. She was a housewife and a mother. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have? DAVIS: I have two brothers and two sisters. HUNTLEY: Where did you fit in that group? DAVIS: Well, I was the knee baby. In other words, they had to give me a title because when they started to call my baby sister, the baby, then that created a problem for everybody, because then they said I was a knee baby. My brother was the oldest and my sister, then I came in and then my other sister. Two boys and, then the girls followed. HUNTLEY: What community were you raised up in? DAVIS: In Collegeville. I was born within about five miles of where I live today. And the strange thing about it, I&#039 ; ve never had a change of address other than military time. I never had any intention of ever leaving Birmingham. Even during the crises and before and all the hardship that we were going through, I still felt that Birmingham was the place to live. I never did leave. HUNTLEY: Well, how would you describe your community in Collegeville back in the days when you were growing up? DAVIS: When I was growing up, the only White people to live in Collegeville were Italians. But, according to census track, there were 8,000 Black people living within less than a mile square that went from the L&amp ; N Railroad down to US Pipe and, then from that to (Inaudible) Product, about less than a mile square was 8,000 Black people lived in that area. But, strange as it seems, in 1945, there weren&#039 ; t but 11 qualified voters, all men. HUNTLEY: Out of 8,000? DAVIS: Out of 8,000. Eleven qualified to vote. I could name those men because Dr. A. V. Mitchell, I don&#039 ; t know if you&#039 ; ve heard of him. We had two doctors that served that community. Dr. Macklin and Dr. Mitchell. Dr. Mitchell was a surgeon and Dr. Macklin was a just a medical doctor. There were a few other miners that were qualified to vote, but just 11 men, and I was one of the 11. HUNTLEY: So you had an array of people in terms of occupations that lived in that community? DAVIS: Oh, no question about that. The community at that time, in the mornings about 6:30 you could see men going to work in different directions. L&amp ; N was to the east, US Pipe and ACIPICO was to the west, Sarenton Mines was to the north and, then, you see ladies going to Norwood, which was where the ladies worked as maids and cooks. Another thing happened at that time. Black ladies would carry baskets on their head. They would put the clothes on their head and walk to Norwood to their jobs. In the evening they would come back, bring those clothes, wash and iron them and carry them back. HUNTLEY: Why don&#039 ; t we see women today with clothes on their head walking? DAVIS: I tell you one thing, I have had quite a bit of experience from traveling. Montgomery was noted for women that worked at some Black farmers garden. They would go and shell butter beans and peas all day long, but they were graceful. They could walk with a bucket of water on their head and not waste a drop. But, I&#039 ; ve never seen a White woman with that. Another thing that puzzled me about the character of Black women in particular, they had a tendency to be graceful. Some of the teachers at Hudson would teach young girls to walk with books on their head. Somehow, we don&#039 ; t look that way now. HUNTLEY: So is that where you started first grade at Hudson School? DAVIS: That&#039 ; s when I first started school. I was wonderful. I was a mamma&#039 ; s boy and I didn&#039 ; t like being away from my mother. My first day at school, Miss Hill was my teacher. I had a midi-blouse on and they had greased me up with lard, had me all shiny and getting to school, I wanted to be at home with my mother. And, so there was a young fellow in front of me, I never did understand how he knew how to get out. I heard him say, &quot ; Miss Hill, may I be excused?&quot ; And, so, she said, &quot ; Yes.&quot ; I saw him walk out. I said to myself, &quot ; That&#039 ; s the way to get out.&quot ; So, when he came back I asked if I could be excused. She said, &quot ; Yes.&quot ; I didn&#039 ; t stop until I got home. But in the meantime, after getting home, my mother was hanging (Inaudible). And, so I made up my cry just before I arrived to our home. And she jumped up and said, &quot ; What&#039 ; s the matter?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Somebody took my lunch.&quot ; Well, this was early before lunch period. She said, &quot ; Wait a minute.&quot ; She went in and got a switch and went across my neck all the way back to school. And Miss McQueen, which I don&#039 ; t understand why we don&#039 ; t have a strong truancy program today, because that lady, Miss McQueen, which was a Birmingham City Truant Officer. My mother said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to give you Miss McQueen.&quot ; So I went over, Miss McQueen was going to take me to Mt. Meigs to the boys reformatory school and she told me if I didn&#039 ; t stay in school that&#039 ; s where I was going. So, I was no more problem. HUNTLEY: Did Miss McQueen live in your community? DAVIS: No. No. I don&#039 ; t know where she lived. But she worked for the City of Birmingham. And, at that time, you didn&#039 ; t find kids out of school. HUNTLEY: You had to answer to Miss McQueen? DAVIS: You had to answer to Miss McQueen. And, when they called the roll, if anyone was absent that was supposed to be in the classroom, those names were turned over to Miss McQueen and she would visit the homes and find out what was happening. That was a holy day for me because I learned then that I had to go to school. HUNTLEY: When you left Hudson, where did you go? DAVIS: Well, you know at that time, Parker was overcrowded. Parker High School was identified as the largest Negro high school in the world. And, Ullman was vacated. It used to be white school, so I had to go to Ullman for two years and Parker the other two to finish high school. HUNTLEY: So, it was Parker High School when you went or was it still Industrial High School? DAVIS: It was Parker High School when I went. I didn&#039 ; t get to Industrial. Dr. Parker had died before I attended. But, one thing that was real strange to me as a lad. I had to ride Norwood streetcar to 11th Avenue South to walk about three blocks to Ullman. That&#039 ; s where Bell&#039 ; s building is on the campus now. That was Ullman High School. Well, I would pass Phillips on the bus, and I was curious, &quot ; Why do I have to pass a school going to school?&quot ; HUNTLEY: Did you ever really raise that question at that time? DAVIS: I raised that question. But, I found out that our teachers really wasn&#039 ; t sensitive to their responsibility of enlightenment. I think they were either controlled or something. But, they never could discuss such issues as that. HUNTLEY: Why do you think that they could not discuss those issues? DAVIS: Well, I kind of think that our school system, and I learned to accept it as being a fact, there was a bit of control there. I don&#039 ; t think the system, as such, was interested in the education of black people. They had to have a school just for the sake of having one in name only. If you got an education, it was a by­ product. But fortunately, we had teachers that were sensitive to our needs and they did what they could to really enlighten us. We lost a lot by integration. Those teachers, at that time, in other words, if you didn&#039 ; t get what you were supposed to do, or do it in the way that you should have done it, then you had a problem. Parents supported that. HUNTLEY: What do you mean &quot ; We lost a lot because of integration?&quot ; DAVIS: Well, what happened, I felt that, and I was in the process of working in the Bessemer School system at the time, but the black teachers were pulled out of black schools and put into the white schools. Plus the fact that they also created another area of education called vocational education and that was a dumping ground for kids that were problem kids. It was saying that after they couldn&#039 ; t measure up to a certain point, then it was a dumping ground. I was proud of vocational education, but I felt confident that a child to select a vocation was an asset, but the system itself had it as just something as a dumping ground for kids, because when I first started working at Bessemer, they wanted to give me the equipment that Bessemer High had used for 4 or 5 years and I refused to accept that. So I started there as a problem and eventually was fired. HUNTLEY: Before we get into Bessemer, let me ask you what do you remember about your high school experiences at Ullman and Parker? DAVIS: Well, the thing that stands out in my mind most is the fact that there was pride. We had to wear a uniform, you had to have your shoes shined and everyone who attended Parker High School had to go to general assemblies. We would have programs and they were an enrichment to the student body. There was a sense of belonging and a sense of pride that stayed with me. All the students that was in school, along with me that graduated from high school, during the time that I did, they have been successful. I don&#039 ; t know one that didn&#039 ; t. One friend of mine that lived in Collegeville, Clifton Casey, he finally was in Tuskegee at the time that the airmen was down there, so he was in the Air force at Tuskegee and he later retired as an inspector of the Detroit Police force. He was also the first black person, or first person to fly a helicopter for the City of Detroit Police force. So there was a pride. There was an accomplishment from high school equivalent to my opinion, to college today, just from high school. HUNTLEY: Were you active in any extra-curricular activities during high school? DAVIS: No. I wanted to play football, but I was too small. Coach Collins had selections from all over the city and, therefore, he could pick all big boys. But, I really wanted to play football. My interest in sports was skating. I loved to skate. We lived in Collegeville and the only paved street in the whole community was where we lived, and we&#039 ; d be out there skating during the Christmas holidays. And, the police were driving red cars at that time. And, for no reason, whatsoever, when the police car would come, the kids would run off because police officers were known to get you and call you to the car and wind the glass down and once you put your head in wind it up so you can&#039 ; t get it out and started hitting you upside the head. So, we&#039 ; d run and hadn&#039 ; t done nothing. HUNTLEY: I was going ask you that question about the relationship between the community and the Birmingham Police Department. DAVIS: There was no relationship whatsoever between the city fathers and the Black community of Collegeville in particular. I don&#039 ; t know about any other community. But, the only service that we received from the City of Birmingham was a man that was called &quot ; the 10 gallon can man.&quot ; And, you know what that was? HUNTLEY: No. Tell me what was that? DAVIS: &quot ; Ten gallon can man&quot ; was the man who would take the cans from the outhouse and dump those cans. That&#039 ; s the only service we had. No garbage service. HUNTLEY: Was this a Black man or a White man? DAVIS: It was a Black man. You see, Jerry was our man. He had his wagon and a mule and he would come in the alley and you had this tin can in the outer house. My job at home was dumping the slop jar in the tin gallon can. But we had no connection whatsoever. I remember, after coming out of the service in 1945, I called Birmingham City, at city hall and asked them if they would put a streetlight on 34th Street and 27th Avenue because that was an area where it was dark. The only streetlights were located in the area where they had these Italian stores. The rest of the community was completely dark. So, I talked to a man that was fair and he told me he would look into. The next thing I knew, the street light was there. HUNTLEY: In your experiences in Ullman and Parker you said there &quot ; was a sense of pride&quot ; , in their dress, in their well-being in the community? DAVIS: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: After high school, what did you do? DAVIS: After high school, I went to work. I really didn&#039 ; t have any reason or any encouragement at all to go to college. At that time there was no incentive. No matter how much education you had, at that time I finished high school in 1943. You could be a preacher. You could be a school teacher. You could sell insurance or work on the railroad or be a postman. Those were the only jobs available. And, so, I wanted to be a railroad engineer and I was excited about going to the railroad. And as soon as I finished high school, I went to work. HUNTLEY: What kind of work was your father doing? DAVIS: My dad was an oiler for the railroad. He oiled and lubricated each (Inaudible }. In other words, they would have two oilers, they were mostly Black, and their responsibility was to put oil and packing in the (Inaudible) to keep the train boxes from running hot. You see if it would run hot it would cause a wreck. One thing that was real strange about that, later I became seriously concerned about it. The Black men were helpers and the White employees were inspectors or car men. Now, here, a Black man is oiling the box and the inspector is supposed to come behind and check it to see if it&#039 ; s properly oiled. But, even if the box ran hot, the oiler, the Black man was held accountable for it. A lot of them lost their jobs because a box was hot or the train had to pull a car out. HUNTLEY: So the inspectors were never held accountable? DAVIS: That&#039 ; s exactly right. And, really, it was their responsibility. If they were inspectors, they were supposed to see to it being done right. But, if anything went wrong, it was always the helpers fault. HUNTLEY: So, out of high school you went to work for the railroad? DAVIS: Went to work for the railroad immediately. HUNTLEY: What company? DAVIS: The L&amp ; N. HUNTLEY: What was your first job? DAVIS: My first job was a laborer. My dad didn&#039 ; t want me to work for the railroad. In fact, at that time, if your parent or father or someone worked at the company and recommend you, you&#039 ; d get hired. So, there was a neighbor that I knew, Mr. Lewis Berry, he worked out there and was the one that got me the job. My dad wanted me to go to Tuskegee, wanted me to go to school, but I didn&#039 ; t want to go to school. HUNTLEY: You didn&#039 ; t want to go to school? DAVIS: No. No. HUNTLEY: You didn&#039 ; t see any need, whatsoever? DAVIS: None, whatsoever. At that time, I didn&#039 ; t see any need for it. I was interested in getting married and, so I wanted a family and I needed a job and I was seriously concerned about a locomotive engineer, but there was no race issue ever discussed in our home. I didn&#039 ; t think about only whites could be an engineer, that never occurred to me at that time. So I started working as a laborer and from that I stayed with the railroad. HUNTLEY: You said &quot ; it never occurred to you that a Black man couldn&#039 ; t be an engineer?&quot ; DAVIS: It never occurred to me. I lived not too far from the L&amp ; N main lines. If you familiar with the Vanderbilt Crossing , it&#039 ; s a fish market right there. That was the main line. And I would see the passenger trains and the freight trains going north and south. At that time they had several passenger trains running around Birmingham daily. HUNTLEY: Were there Black engineers? DAVIS: No. No. No Black engineers. Black firemen. You would see a Black man as a fireman and a White man as an engineer. But, for some reason, in my mind locked on the power of that locomotive, but I wanted to be the one to pull that throttle, I really did. HUNTLEY: You aspired to be an engineer? DAVIS: That&#039 ; s exactly right. HUNTLEY: So you went to work as a laborer? DAVIS: To start at the bottom. HUNTLEY: How did you progress? DAVIS: Well, I found out that the engineer&#039 ; s job wasn&#039 ; t for me. And, I didn&#039 ; t realize the consequences behind that. I had backed off at that point until I went into the service. HUNTLEY: So you worked for several years? DAVIS: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Were you drafted in the service? DAVIS: Yes, I was drafted. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that experience. DAVIS: Well, when I was drafted, in 1944, I noticed I wanted to be in the Army because I could swim. I learned to swim in Village Creek. We didn&#039 ; t have any pools or parks. But, I never could see myself swimming in the ocean, so I didn&#039 ; t want to go to the Navy, but they put me in the Navy. They sent me to Fort Benning, Georgia and I took an aptitude test and they decided that I would be in the Navy. But, what I noticed about that, going in the Navy, if you had a high school education or above, they would put you in the steward&#039 ; s branch in the Navy. If you had less than a high school education, they would send you to Great Lakes, Illinois, which was a naval base that train seamen for various crafts aboard the ship. The only stewards were cooks, and make beds, clean up the rooms or areas of the officers. So they put me in that area and here I was made for the whole war. I mean, just disgusted the whole time I was there. HUNTLEY: Well, why? Did you expect to be put in another area? DAVIS: Well, I wanted to be a naval officer. And, I felt I was eligible for that. I had 4.0 conduct and I was willing to take training. First, the Secretary of the Navy, whose name was Knox, I shall never forget it. There was pressure from all over the country to have, there was a B-12 program where blacks could go into to become naval officers. But Secretary Knox stated that before he would allow any black man to become a naval officers, they would fly the flag at half mast. And, they did that. After that, they began to have black naval officers. I never did get a chance to get into that area, because I had some serious problems and, from that I had a strange experience of hatred that built in my heart. HUNTLEY: You said, &quot ; you were angry the entire time you were in there.&quot ; How did that anger manifest itself during the time that you were there? DAVIS: Well, what happened. I was made to shine officer&#039 ; s shoes. To make officer&#039 ; s beds up and to serve them with a little white coat on. I was in PT&#039 ; s. I was in the same outfit that President Kennedy was in. He was a &quot ; dollar a year man&quot ; and all of the men in the PT... HUNTLEY: He was what kind of man? DAVIS: Dollar a year. HUNTLEY: What does that mean? DAVIS: That means that he didn&#039 ; t accept a salary from the government. But the government won&#039 ; t allow you to work for them for nothing, so he was identified as a &quot ; dollar a year man.&quot ; I didn&#039 ; t know him personally, but I knew that he was there at that time and he was PT boat 109. Well the training facilities were at Newport, Rhode Island. I was assigned to that unit to learn how to prepare the tables and cook, and this sort of thing. And I had some experiences at Newport that I think changed my whole life. There was a program where the steward, which was over us, he was a Petty Officer, but he was still a steward. Now, they wouldn&#039 ; t allow us to wear the crow on our arm. We wore a moon. A little white moon to indicate the rank, but White sailors had a crow and, then ranks under there. But, however, the steward told me on this occasion that I was assigned to work in the officer&#039 ; s club. That night, when the club opened around 8:00 or 9:00 o&#039 ; clock, then I was to go up there to work. They would pay you extra money for that but I told the steward, I said, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t care to work. Give it to someone else.&quot ; He said, &quot ; You have duty up there.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t care for the money.&quot ; He said, &quot ; You got to go.&quot ; I said, &quot ; If I have to go, when the bugles are sounding taps, I&#039 ; m hitting my rack.&quot ; Because I had to get up 5:00 that morning to go in the galley. So, that was the beginning of a serious change in my life. And, so I went up to the officers club and carried drinks from the bartender to the officers. They were dancing and drinking with their guests and what not. So, when I heard the bugler sound taps, I had a drink in my hand, I put it down on the table and walked out. I went by the Executive Officer&#039 ; s office and wrote a note and explained to him what had happened concerning the stewards and steward&#039 ; s mates getting up at 5:00 o&#039 ; clock in the morning to go to work and working until 2:00 and 3:00 in the morning at the club. I told him I didn&#039 ; t care to work at the club and I was forced to go up there and I didn&#039 ; t think that was proper. So, I told my best buddy about that and strangely as it seemed, the next morning my name was called out to report to the Executive Officer. I went to his office, the steward was there and he said, &quot ; Davis?&quot ; I said, &#039 ; &#039 ; Yes, sir.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Did you write this note?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I Did.&quot ; I told him on the note if it cost everyone to suffer, ask and I&#039 ; ll present myself to you. So he said, &quot ; What do you mean by this?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, sir.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I explained to the steward that I didn&#039 ; t care for the extra work and he insisted that I go up. So at taps, I knew I had to get up early in the morning and started working in the galley so I just come up and went to bed.&quot ; So, the Executive Officer asked the steward, &quot ; Did you tell him he had to work up there?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Yes, sir.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m telling you, he didn&#039 ; t have to work up there.&quot ; He said, &quot ; But Davis, you didn&#039 ; t handle this the proper way.&quot ; And, so that settled that part but within the next two days I was shipped out. They shipped me to the Pacific, to Pearl Harbor. HUNTLEY: You were determined to be a troublemaker? DAVIS: Well, I would say I was determined to be my own person. HUNTLEY: I&#039 ; m sorry. They determined that you were a troublemaker? DAVIS: That&#039 ; s exactly right. And, so they shipped me out. I went to Pearl Harbor and stayed there for about 7 or 8 months and had to come back to the same place. I was there about two weeks and they shipped me over to Europe. So I served in both theaters of war. After I came back from Europe but they were still fighting in Japan. And, so time I got back to Newport they were going to send me back to the southwest Pacific. And so, I told them I refused to go. They settled down and shipped me to Fargo Building in Boston and I stayed there and from there they sent me to New Orleans and I was discharged . HUNTLEY: So you had made the determination about what you would do and what you would not do? DAVIS: That&#039 ; s exactly right. I had decided that I was a person. I found out that if I had opportunity I could do anything anyone else could do. Especially in an area that I decided I wanted to go in. I was determined to stand on that and that was my life. I&#039 ; ve always been like that. HUNTLEY: So you mustered out from New Orleans? DAVIS: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Did you come directly back to Birmingham? DAVIS: Back to Birmingham and back to the L&amp ; N. And, when I get back to the L&amp ; N now is the time I&#039 ; m pressing for this higher job because I&#039 ; ve seen Black men in the Navy operate cranes and drive trucks. HUNTLEY: Are you pressing at that point for the engineer&#039 ; s job? DAVIS: I wrote a letter to the master mechanic. First I asked for apprentice training as a machinist because I wanted to work up. And, so he called me to his office. He said, &quot ; Davis, why you want to be a machinist.&quot ; He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ll give you a leave of absence to go to Nashville.&quot ; There was a school in Nashville that taught dentistry. He was going to make a dentist out of me. I told him, I said, &quot ; I can&#039 ; t leave Birmingham. I have a family here and I want to be able to work the top job that I&#039 ; m qualified for.&quot ; What happened, when I applied for the job as an apprentice machinist, that was under the GI Bill. The government would guarantee me an opportunity but they left it up to me to find somewhere to work as an apprentice. So, they sent me to Tuskegee to take an aptitude test. Tuskegee approved that I was eligible and qualified to be an apprentice machinist and, then I come back to the shop and, when I came back, then that&#039 ; s when the ball started turning in a way that I realized that I had a fight on my hands. They never did. I ended up in court. I was the first person, I&#039 ; m pretty sure of this. I have a notebook that my daughter put together for me. Judge Lynn was appointed by President Roosevelt as a District Judge for the Northern District of Alabama, so I filed a discrimination case against the L&amp ; N. HUNTLEY: Was this as a result of not getting the job? DAVIS: Not getting the position that I was after. And, so we went to court. Now, at that time I&#039 ; m representing a bunch of men out there. HUNTLEY: What year is this? DAVIS: That was in 1946. In my first discrimination case, I knew that the men out there was in the same situation that I was in. I realized that. But, I couldn&#039 ; t afford to ask them to follow me, because I knew I was committed to go all the way. I never did ask anybody to sign a petition or to testify with me or anything of the kind. So, going to court, the company had, there was one friend of mine who was with me in the court, Erskine Pinkens. He&#039 ; s dead now. He was in the court, but what happened, the foreman, Mr. Mulvaney was the foreman at the Round House. That&#039 ; s where the engines were located. And, at that time I was working on the coal shoot, putting coal and water on locomotive engines. Mr. Mulvaney testified in Judge Lynn&#039 ; s court stating that I was &quot ; hot headed.&quot ; In other words, that no one could tell me anything. Well, see, the agreement was that the promotion was based on ability, merit and seniority. They admitted that I had ability and seniority, but I didn&#039 ; t merit the position because I was a &quot ; hot head.&quot ; And, Judge Lynn ruled against me. Had I had that case later, I would have won it. HUNTLEY: How long did you stay on that particular job? DAVIS: I stayed at the L&amp ; N until 1950. The railroad went on a strike and, at that time, I&#039 ; m Local Chairman now, and I had filed a suit against the company. In order for them to maintain their integrity, they had to promote every Black man out there. They had to offer all of the laborers promotions to a higher rate of job. And, then, I felt real happy about it because I was responsible for those men getting those top rate jobs, including my father. My daddy didn&#039 ; t accept it, but they had to offer him a car man&#039 ; s job. And, my brother, he was hired as a car man. In fact, he retired as a car man. But, in order for them to defeat me, and they singled me out and said that I didn&#039 ; t merit the job because I was a &quot ; hot head&quot ; and I knew they couldn&#039 ; t say the same thing about everybody out there, so they had to promote them. HUNTLEY: You became a union representative? DAVIS: Yes . I was the Local Chairman. I was in charge of the union at {Inaudible) Shop. Local 1044 was our local. International Brotherhood of Firemen and Oilmen. Being in that position, we had our meetings at the Masonic Temple and I would tell the men that if you do your job, I&#039 ; ll defend your rights. But, if you&#039 ; re caught sleep or if you come to work drunk, or if you&#039 ; re caught stealing, don&#039 ; t ask me to represent you, because I can&#039 ; t defend that. And, I was more or less a good employee because I was encouraging people to be good workers. But the company just couldn&#039 ; t control me. And, just like laborers work, we were cleaning the yard. There was a contract. I kept a copy of the union contract and a New Testament all the time. I read both of them. So, on one occasion, where a car man was cutting a piece of waste material in repairing a box car and, he had a helper with him, which was a Black man. So, what happened , it was reported to me that this helper was picking up scrap. So, I had the privilege of getting off my job to look into any problems in the shop. So, I went up in the area and I talked to the foreman, I said, &quot ; Mr. Mulvaney, that&#039 ; s scrap material.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Davis, the car man just cut that and a helper right here, why can&#039 ; t he pick that up and put that in a trash can?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Because it&#039 ; s laborers work.&quot ; I said, &quot ; That&#039 ; s the agreement.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Davis, you never would make a foreman.&quot ; What happened, he was trying to condition me to accept a position and that would solve the problem. But, what he didn&#039 ; t understand I didn&#039 ; t want to be a foreman. I wanted to be a machinist. And, so, behind that they began to get after me. HUNTLEY: How long did you remain after they started getting behind you? You actually lost your job? DAVIS: Yes, I lost my job. What happened, I was a tractor operator and it was just customary for me to check the oil in a machine before I started. So, I checked the oil in the tractor that morning and found the oil stick absolutely clean. So I put the stick back down to check it and found that crank case was filled with gasoline. If I had started that engine, it was an old Ford some Tractor. If I had started that engine, with the ignition on top and gasoline fumes in the crank case, there&#039 ; s no telling what would have happened. So I didn&#039 ; t make no noise about it. I had the tractor pulled to the machine shop and drained that gasoline out and put oil in and went on about my work. HUNTLEY: Was that an error that someone committed? DAVIS: I don&#039 ; t know if somebody was purposely trying to do me any harm. But I never did made any shout of it. I never did say anything about it, but that happened. But, finally, my job was to keep about 300 car men busy with material. I was carrying material to rebuild box cars. So, on one occasion my tractor was broke down. Well, normally speaking, when a tractor was broke down, the guy would go to the shop and stay until his tractor was ready and, then he would go back to work, but I didn&#039 ; t do that, because I knew they were watching me. So I kept my work going by using an idle tractor. And, so they found out that I was determined to work. Mr. Hollingsworth, my immediate foreman called on the PA system and told me to go to the north end of the shed. So I did. He said, &quot ; Davis, we want you to roll wheels.&quot ; Now, rolling wheels in the wheel shop was right there in the area. A box car wheel weigh 350 lbs and the axle weight 750 lbs. I had a boil under my arm when I left home that morning, but I didn&#039 ; t lay off work, I came because I got to handle this tractor. But to move that wheel to get that much weight started, you had to exert quite a bit of effort. So, I informed the foreman , I said, &quot ; Mr. Hollingsworth, it&#039 ; s very difficult for me to roll wheels.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I came to work because I can handle my tractor, but I got a boil under my arm.&quot ; He said, &quot ; You refuse to work?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m not refusing to work. I&#039 ; m just telling you I can&#039 ; t roll wheels.&quot ; He said, &quot ; You&#039 ; re going to roll wheels.&quot ; When he said &#039 ; it like that, I said, &quot ; Well, if you insist that I roll wheels, I prefer punching out.&quot ; I had the privilege of hitting the clock any time. So that was the day they were looking for. So he went to the office and the master mechanic called me to the office and sent me to Dr. McGruder for an examination. I knew my fate was sealed in the envelope. He sealed the envelope and I never did try to look at it. I carried it to Dr. McGruder. He examined my arm and sealed it back and sent me back to the shop. So, when I got back to the master mechanic&#039 ; s office. He said, &quot ; You go down and do anything you want to do.&quot ; I knew I was fired then. So, about 3 or 4 months after that is when the master mechanic came through there, down in the shop and gave me a letter. When he gave me the letter, I put the letter in my back pocket. He said, &quot ; Davis, I want you to read that letter.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ll read my mail when it&#039 ; s convenient. Right now I&#039 ; m busy.&quot ; He was the bossman. He knew that my job was to carry this material back and forth. He said, &quot ; If you don&#039 ; t mind, read that one now.&quot ; I took the letter out of my pocket. It said, &quot ; You are hereby discharged from service to the company effective immediately.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Do you understand the letter.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Yes.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Get off the company&#039 ; s premises the quickest way you know how to get off.&quot ; Now that was a change in my life at that point. The only money I had in the world was less than $10.00 and that&#039 ; s what I had on the books. But, I was obedient to him. I knew all he wanted me to tell him, I needed my job, which I did. But, I walked across that train yard, got off his premises and went home and it took me three years to win that job back. HUNTLEY: What did you do in the meantime? DAVIS: In the meantime, the first thing, I was the first black person to serve as a mechanic on new cars. I went to school on the GI Bill to be a mechanic and also attended General Motors Institute in Flint, Michigan. So, I went to J. Truitt Payne. I asked him did he service his used cars. He said, &quot ; No, we send that work out.&quot ; I was dressed in a blue suede suit, white shirt, blue tie, shined shoes. I asked him, I said, &quot ; Well, if you have equipment, I could service those cars for you, make a job for myself and save you some money.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Fellow, I been on this corner 21 years, it wouldn&#039 ; t do for me for a car to go a block and stop running. I said, &quot ; Mr. Payne, if you have the equipment, I can tune a car better than anybody in town or just as good.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Come back in two weeks.&quot ; In two weeks I was right there again. At that time, I didn&#039 ; t even own a car. He said, &quot ; I been thinking about you. I have an opening in the new car department,&quot ; and asked if I had my tools. I said, &quot ; I have my tools.&quot ; He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to hire you over there.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Now you know how things are here.&quot ; He said, &quot ; You&#039 ; ll be working for a white fellow. If he call you a wrong name, it&#039 ; s one or two things you could do. You can tell me about it or you can pick up a hammer and knock the hell out of him.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, if you hire me, I won&#039 ; t make any problems for you.&quot ; So, he hired me and I worked for him about 3 or 4 years. Then, I left there and started teaching school. I worked at the post office after leaving J.Truitt Payne. I worked at the post office about a year. HUNTLEY: Did you ever have any difficulties at J. Truitt Payne? DAVIS: I did. The gentleman that I was working with at first, he and I worked like two peas in a pod. His name was George. He found out that I knew mechanics and I didn&#039 ; t bother him. He had his stall and I had mine. We were preparing new cars for the show room. When they come off the truck, we had to examine those cars to check them for rattles, noises and put the floor mats, radios and heaters, just any kind of minor work to be done. So, after working with George for a period of time, I never did have problem. So, finally, he became ill and after he was off for about 3 or 4 days, I saw the management and Mr. George had been very nice to me. We had worked together. I felt committed if I could do anything to help him, I would do that. So I asked the management did they have provisions for a man if he was sick, would they pay his salary. He said, &quot ; No, Davis, we don&#039 ; t do that. Why you ask?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Mr. George is off sick. If you agree to pay him while he&#039 ; s off, I&#039 ; ll work whatever time is necessary to keep these cars moving for the sales department.&quot ; He said, &quot ; It&#039 ; s mighty nice of you, so I checked with Mr. Payne and find out.&quot ; So, later on that evening he came out and told me, &quot ; Davis, we&#039 ; ve agreed to pay Mr. George&#039 ; s salary, but you need some help over here.&quot ; Now, I kept those cars moving. So finally George came back and he told me, he said, &quot ; Davis, you know they paid me.&quot ; I never did tell him that I was responsible for that. So finally , he asked that we go to Florida. He said, &quot ; I can get you a job in Florida, making more money than you&#039 ; re making here.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Mr. George, I can&#039 ; t leave Birmingham&quot ; . He said, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m leaving, I&#039 ; m quitting.&quot ; So finally, he quit. And, they hired another fellow. This fellow came in that morning with white trousers and a white shirt and a cup of coffee in his hand. He walked in this area. So, I was working on a car when he came in. And, I finished my car and road test my car and he came back. The minute I came back he said, &quot ; Davis, you finish this job here.&quot ; That was one he was working on. I did that, because I thought maybe it was something that he had to do. So I found out his game, that he was wanting me to do all the work. So, I began to slow down on my job until he finished his. A doctor purchased two Chryslers. It was a Chrysler 300. That was one that had two four-barrel carburetors. It was a powerful engine, so I had tuned it up and was test driving it. And, so, when I came back, I stayed gone about 15-20 minutes this guy was standing in the alley there at J. Truitt Payne&#039 ; s shop and he cursed me and said, &quot ; Where have you been?&quot ; I jumped out that car and told him exactly what I wanted to tell him. And told him, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t ever ask me where I been anymore.&quot ; HUNTLEY: What did you tell him? DAVIS: I told him, &quot ; None of your damn business.&quot ; But (Inaudible) have come back and never said a word. But I knew that he didn&#039 ; t know what he was doing. When I would put a radio or heater in a car, in the box where the radio was a template that would let you know where to drill a hole to put the antenna. He didn&#039 ; t know what that was in there for. And, spotlights, you had a template to tell you where the holes had to be drilled. So, I would always get the (Inaudible) and get my round spot there and take my punch and strike and, then drill my hole and it was the right place. But, he never did do that. So an order came in for a spotlight to be on a car and it was another car that had a heater and a radio, which was more difficult. But I knew that he could handle the spotlight, because he could take that punch and kind of guess about where to put it. And, he struck that car and started his drill to moving and I&#039 ; m busy putting a radio and heater in this car that I was working on. And, so, finally he asked me, he said, &quot ; Davis, would you come over here and see where this drill.&quot ; He had been drilling a long time. When I walked over and he started to drill, the drill came straight through the dash. And I said, &quot ; The drill has come through the dash.&quot ; So, he knew he had messed this car up. So I went back to my job and later on that evening management came over and said, &quot ; Davis, who that messed up this dash?&quot ; I pointed to the fellow. He said, &quot ; Davis, why did you take that job?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I took the hardest job.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Putting a heater in, I could think he could do that, and putting a radio in a car, I did both of them and I felt that he could do a simple job putting the spot light on.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Davis be more careful next time.&quot ; When he said that, I knew then it was my time to go. So in a few days I gave Jack Payne a five days notice that I would resign. So, after that I told them that, he came to me and said, &quot ; Davis, we can&#039 ; t let you go. What&#039 ; s the problem?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Mr. Payne, I promised you I wouldn&#039 ; t create a problem for you.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I see a problem surfacing.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, if you talking about this fellow,&quot ; (I forgot his name). He said, &quot ; Today is his last day.&quot ; I said, &quot ; He needs a job just like I need one.&quot ; And so, I quit and I started doing mechanic work around my home. And, finally an option came open. Mr. Ephraim taught me auto mechanics and he said that there was an opening for a mechanic instructor at Dunbar. So, I called the principal to see about the job and maybe I&#039 ; ll might be able to get it. So, I called Mr. Abrams, he was the principal of Dunbar High School at the time and he asked me to come out there. I went out there. I had also worked on Ms. Nation&#039 ; s car and she was crazy about me. Do you know Ms. Nation? HUNTLEY: Yes. DAVIS: Well, she was quite a woman. At any rate, I had worked on her car. She had a clutch that went bad on her and I fixed her car. So, from then on, I was her mechanic. So, when I got to Dunbar High School and Mr. Abrams asked me what kind of work I had done. So, I started talking about the work I did with Payne. And, so, somehow Ms. Nation came up. He said, &quot ; You know Ms. Nation?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Yes, sir.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Will Ms. Nation recommend you?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m certain she would.&quot ; He said, &quot ; If you know Ms. Nation, you&#039 ; re alright.&quot ; So he, in turn, told the superintendent that he would accept me. So the superintendent had me to come in his office. He said, &quot ; Mr. Davis, if we hire you would you move to Bessemer?&quot ; I said, &quot ; No, sir.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, if you live in Birmingham, that&#039 ; s quite a ways.&quot ; I said, &quot ; But, I live in Birmingham.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, we&#039 ; ll let you know.&quot ; So about five o&#039 ; clock that evening he called me and told me if I wanted the job, it was mine. And so I started at that school. But it was because of a recommendation from Ms. Nation and, also a high recommendation from (Inaudible) Payne. HUNTLEY: How long did you teach school? DAVIS: Thirty years. Now, at that time I had no interest in teaching. I had no college training. At that time I realized that they didn&#039 ; t care who taught black children. But, my interest and love for children was such that I was proud to have the job and I made a difference. I&#039 ; m certain I did because I just met some of my former students and we plan to have a reunion of all the boys I&#039 ; ve taught over those 30 years. So I ran into a serious problem out there. HUNTLEY: You had a problem between a Black man and a White man? DAVIS: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me about that? DAVIS: Well, Mr. Walter Branch was my principal at this time. Mr. Abrams had passed. They had built Abrams High School and I was one of the first teachers that went in that area in that school. Mr. Abrams really was the first Black man I had ever worked under as my boss, and I was proud of that. I respected that and honored him for it. After Mr. Abrams passed, Mr. Branch was the first principal of Abrams High School. HUNTLEY: He was a Black man? DAVIS: Walter Branch was a Black man. So, I was also the school&#039 ; s photographer. Mr. Branch instructed me at 12:00 get the school&#039 ; s camera, go out on the campus and take pictures of the football team. We had won the championship that year. I was one of the first persons to photograph a football game with a 16mm camera. I did a lot of work even for Miles College. When I came back in my classroom, about three minutes after lunch period, which was 12:00 o&#039 ; clock, Mr. Branch was my principal, and he knew my lunch period was over at 12:00. But, I didn&#039 ; t think about that. He&#039 ; s my boss. He told me to take the pictures. When I walked in the classroom about 3 or 4 minutes after 12:00, Mr. S. C. Porch was my immediate supervisor and the assistant superintendent was in my class with their hats on. When I walked into the classroom, Mr. Porch said, &quot ; Davis, where in the hell have you been?&quot ; I knew he had the right to ask me where I had been, but not in that manner. I said, &quot ; Mr. Porch, I&#039 ; ve been out getting pictures for the football team as I was instructed by the principal.&quot ; He said, &quot ; I believe (Inaudible) . So I&#039 ; m close to him now. I said, &quot ; It&#039 ; s a simple matter for me to stay in the shop. You go up and tell Mr. Branch you want me to stay in the shop. Surely, if he tells me to be somewhere else the next time you come, you won&#039 ; t find me.&quot ; At that time he put his hands on my collar. He said, &quot ; I mean for you to stay in the shop.&quot ; I never moved my hand from my side. I looked him in his face and my class was quiet. No kind of noise. I said, &quot ; Man, take your filthy hands off of me.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Take your hands off of me right now, do you understand that?&quot ; He was not ready for that. He had dropped his hands and started shaking all over. HUNTLEY: This is a White man? DAVIS: And, when he started to trembling all over the assistant superintendent walked over to him and said, (Inaudible). By then I had walked out. But this is what opened my eyes to if we have a prize, this would open my eyes to it. I go into Mr. Branch&#039 ; s office just to relate to him what happened, not to ask him for any assistance. I said, &quot ; Mr. Branch I was doing what you told me to do. Mr. Porch just handed my collar. I don&#039 ; t play like that.&quot ; Walter Branch looked at me like I&#039 ; m looking at you and walked in his office and closed the door and never said a word to me about that from then or now. Then, I realized what a bad situation we as Black people were in, when our school officials couldn&#039 ; t defend their own words, And, from that I became interested in politics. It didn&#039 ; t hurt me what I was telling him. What I was concerned about, at least he could have said, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; ll straighten this out.&quot ; He never said a word. From then, I started writing editorials. I have my first editorial I wrote for The Birmingham News. Later on, Mr. Branch called me one morning and wanted to know, &quot ; Davis, what about all this editorial writing?&quot ; I said, &quot ; What about it?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Davis, you know what I&#039 ; m talking about.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t say I didn&#039 ; t tell you.&quot ; He was trying to tell me not to write. But, I continued to write. And, finally in 1970, the Bessemer Board of Education fired me and I won that back and retired. HUNTLEY: So you won the case after three years with L&amp ; N? DAVIS: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Did you get your job back? DAVIS: I got the job back and was paid for lost time at the L&amp ; N. HUNTLEY: But, did you go back to the L&amp ; N? DAVIS: No, no. I was teaching school then. But at the time when I won that job back, it was during the school vacation and I could work at the shop. At that time they had cut a lot of jobs off. So, I was working vacation vacancies, but later a regular job came open and I had to resign from the L&amp ; N so I could finish my work duties with the Bessemer Board. HUNTLEY: So, all of the time you are still living in Collegeville? DAVIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And, we know that this is through the 40s, 50s and in 1956, of course, something very significant happened in Birmingham with the NAACP being outlawed from operating in the State of Alabama. The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized. DAVIS: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Were you there? DAVIS: I was there. Rev. Shuttlesworth was my pastor. He was the one that set the motion in Birmingham as to the struggle. In other words, he was the engineer behind that. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about those first days of the Movement? DAVIS: Well, one thing, as you stated the NAACP was outlawed by the state. That was, in my opinion, a bad move on the part of Governor Wallace to take that position.. HUNTLEY: It wasn&#039 ; t Wallace, but Governor Patterson. DAVIS: Okay. For them to outlaw the NAACP, in my opinion was a bad move, however, if they had just put some plugs in their ear to listen to what Black people were saying and, then react like they (Inaudible). But they took a negative attitude. Rev. Shuttlesworth was just a determined person to the point that he just had nerve. When I was working with L&amp ; N, Mr. Wells, Rev. Shuttlesworth&#039 ; s uncle, had told me at the time Rev. Shuttlesworth was in Selma at the First Baptist Church in Selma and wanted to come to Birmingham. So, our pastor, Rev. Laster had died. Our church was vacant. And, being a member of the church, we had the privilege to ask the chairman of the pulpit committee to invite various ministers in. So, I was the one that put Rev. Shuttlesworth&#039 ; s name in to come to our church. HUNTLEY: So you were instrumental in Shuttlesworth even coming to Birmingham? DAVIS: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: What was your initial duties with the Movement? Were you one of the chartermembers of the Alabama Christian Movement? Did you join immediately? How did you get involved? DAVIS: Well, I didn&#039 ; t actually get involved in the Movement until my church was bombed. When the church was bombed the first time, that activated a whole lot of people . We became seriously concerned. HUNTLEY: I believe it was December of 1956? DAVIS: That&#039 ; s exactly right. When they bombed that church the first time, we were cleaning the church up on a Saturday for Sunday morning church services. My grandmother was living with us at that time. My dad had brought her to Birmingham. She was well into her 80&#039 ; s at that time. {Inaudible) Funderburg was the senior person. Charlie Watson was the chairman of the deacon board, and a senior person. He was the treasurer of the church a dedicated follower of Rev. Shuttlesworth. When I saw those senior people come into the Sunday School after the bombing, I knew something important had took place, because they were supposed to have afraid to get involved. Knowing the nature of black people they weren&#039 ; t supposed to get involved, and, I do believe from the bottom of my heart, that those that were planting those bombs, really wasn&#039 ; t trying to hurt anyone. I think they were trying to terrorize and get us scattered. But they were unsuccessful. HUNTLEY: So you are saying it had just the opposite effect? DAVIS: Yes. In other words, it pulled people together. Very similar to the situation in Montgomery as far as the bus boycott in Montgomery. I guess people had gotten to the point that they was tired, but that was a move that pulled people together and, then, we started moving. Every Monday night when we would have a Movement meeting, they would announce on Sunday where they would have the meeting on the next night, you had to be there early to get a seat. HUNTLEY: Did you attend those? DAVIS: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: How would you describe a mass meeting? DAVIS: Well, the meetings we had were good. Each night they had a speaker and they had good song services and it was crowded, and, then Rev. Shuttlesworth would have information that he would share as to what was happening, the progress of the Movement. It was just something that kept you occupied. HUNTLEY: I know you served as a guard? DAVIS: That&#039 ; s right, I served as a guard at my church. My church is on 29th Avenue and 33rd Street. It was a dirt road then. Julius Clark&#039 ; s father and I was on duty that night from 12:00 to 6:00. We had rifles that was loaded and was instructed that if we had to use a gun, to fire and leave. But, that particular night about 3:00 or 4:00 o&#039 ; clock in the morning, I heard a car speeding around 34th Street headed toward the church. I knew whoever was driving that car didn&#039 ; t know the area because of the steep curve. And, so, we alerted ourselves. When the car went across and found he was going into a dead end, he backed up and, then went down 29th. At that time Rev. Clark and myself walked out and we saw this car about three blocks down 29th. He was headed this way, headed west and another car was headed east. They stopped side by side, just like this. After a while the car headed to the church, driving slowly. That was a police officer. Now, that&#039 ; s as close as I could get that a policeman was involved. HUNTLEY: Was it a police car? DAVIS: Yes, a police car. They came driving slow and shined their lights all around to see who was around. I saw that with my eyes, right in the middle of the street. HUNTLEY: Did anything happen that night? DAVIS: No, no. Nothing happened that night. But they were intending for something to happen because you could tell the car was up to something and whoever was driving the car wasn&#039 ; t familiar with the area. And, also, I helped Stone Johnson, we also protected and guarded Arthur Shores home on Center Street. HUNTLEY: Was there any time that you were Attorney Shores&#039 ; home that any suspicious activity took place? DAVIS: Well, I wasn&#039 ; t on duty that particular night, but I think Stone might have been there. But someone was hurt one night. Some shots were fired. HUNTLEY: By you or someone else? DAVIS: Fired by us. And, I&#039 ; m pretty sure somebody was wounded but you never hear anything about it. HUNTLEY: Into a car? DAVIS: In a car. HUNTLEY: What happened? What precipitated the incident? DAVIS: Well, they came by as if they were going to throw something of the car and shots started firing. And, I think it was probably in the paper, but at any rate, someone was hurt that night, but it was never known to me. HUNTLEY: What was the relationship between you and other members of your church and your family as a result of your activities in the Movement? DAVIS: Well, my family supported what I was doing. I mean, I never had any complaints from my wife. My children were real small at that time. When I had duty at the church or any guard duty, I just took that responsibility . And got up to go to work the next morning. In my church, I was a Sunday School teacher at that time. HUNTLEY: So, people simply accepted you as being one of those individuals that would really sacrifice yourself? DAVIS: Right. In other words, it was not all the members of the church were really supportive. I can&#039 ; t even think of the names that weren&#039 ; t, but, however, I know that all of them wasn&#039 ; t, just like all of the churches in Birmingham really wasn&#039 ; t supporting Dr. King nor Rev. Shuttlesworth. Some of the pastors in Birmingham didn&#039 ; t support them. HUNTLEY: What about your brothers and sisters, were they active in the Movement? DAVIS: My brother was. My sisters weren&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: As you look back on the Movement and if you had the ability, what would you change about the Movement? DAVIS: To be frank about it, then, as now, I felt economic rights should have been the focus, rather than social. The sit-ins and the demonstrations, of course there were clerk&#039 ; s jobs, but there wasn&#039 ; t any emphasis put on economics. The Movement was more or less focused around social equality. As I look back then, if we had put heavy emphasis on economics, I don&#039 ; t think the system would have been prepared to defend an economic move as they were a social move. The first thing they were hollering that Black men wanted White women. And, if they went after jobs, they couldn&#039 ; t have said that. So, I even tried to get that opened into the Movement but I didn&#039 ; t have any success there. HUNTLEY: You were not successful in changing the focus? DAVIS: No. I didn&#039 ; t have enough wit to change the focus, but that was my interest then and it made sense then and it make sense now. HUNTLEY: Did you take part in any of the demonstrations? DAVIS: In Bessemer, I did. I was active in Bessemer but in Birmingham my working in the Bessemer school system, I just couldn&#039 ; t get to Birmingham in time to be a part. I walked the streets in Bessemer HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested? DAVIS: No. I never was arrested. HUNTLEY: Just in retrospect, as you look back on the Movement and you talk about the social aspect versus the economic aspect, do you see anything that happened today that would lead in that direction that you would like to see go into? DAVIS: Well, one thing I see negative that from an economic standpoint, we were thrown welfare. I saw a number of young ladies in Bessemer, and I never witnessed a White girl being pregnant in the school system in Bessemer while I was there for thirty years. But, I&#039 ; ve seen as many as 3, 4 and 5 Black girls pregnant in one classroom. I heard from the little girls talking that if they are pregnant, they could get a check if they don&#039 ; t identify a father. So, to my way of looking at that, the welfare benefits was essential to these people&#039 ; s livelihood and they accepted as being that, and those handouts really retarded our progress and we&#039 ; re still locked into that now. Now, they are fixing to take the welfare away from us, which it wasn&#039 ; t right in the beginning. It wasn&#039 ; t designed to help us. I wrote an editorial once asking why not share the administrative costs of welfare rather than the little measly checks that the people were getting, and you would find that a lot people living in Mountain Brook was on welfare, more so than people in Collegeville. But that was a pitfall for us and I think we are still locked into that right now. We are going to have walk through. The struggle is coming all over again. One advantage I see in the situation right now it&#039 ; s going to bring us back together, and, then we can plot our course from this point on. We are hurting now, far more than we were before the struggle. HUNTLEY: You attended the Million Man March, what did that mean to you? DAVIS: The Million Man March, when I arrived in Washington that morning about 8:30 a.m., I was on Amtrak , I saw all these black brothers moving toward that mall and in my heart I said, &quot ; What is this?&quot ; Right now, if I make a move, I might shed tears. Because I went up there basically because I felt there was a need to come together. I had no idea that a million plus men would show up. But, I believe that those men were there because they accept part of the problem and they wanted to be part of the solution. I think it&#039 ; s a force and I would say this, a lot of people have reasons not to admire or support Minister Farrakhan. But, I contend that the minister made that call, but God made the response. It was no way one man could have handled that and get that kind of response on his on and I feel as if something big is coming out of this. We are going to have some more suffering and hard days for some people. But, the results of what the system is moving now, they are going to put us back together, which is something they don&#039 ; t really want, because we are going to come together out of need as we once were. HUNTLEY: Mr. Davis, it&#039 ; s really been great having you today. It&#039 ; s obvious that we have a lot more to talk about. What I&#039 ; d like to do is to really get you back and talk some more because that period between 1960 and the 1990s you were very active and you became county commissioner and we want to talk about that as well. So, I want to thank you for coming today and we&#039 ; ll try to do this again. DAVIS: Okay. The pleasure is mine. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RDavisII19960320.xml RDavisII19960320.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Reuben Davis, II (March 1996) Description An account of the resource Reuben Davis discusses his advocacy for employment equality, which includes serving in the labor union and filing multiple discrimination lawsuits against L&N Railroad. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19960320D Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company United States. Navy--Stewards Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996-03-20 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/2c947c299a3230fda65923d5369bc5ae.png 350c6b07b28e53c9597bfd039d95f902 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Reuben Davis, II OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RDavisII19960403.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Asbury Howard OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 April 3, 1996 Reuben Davis, II Interviewed on April 3, 1996 19960403D 1:03:05 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham. The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People Dunbar High School (Bessemer, Ala.) Jefferson County (Ala.). County Commission Asbury Howard Reuben Davis, II Horace Huntley Video 1:|9(9)|19(12)|34(11)|51(6)|66(7)|83(5)|98(2)|110(4)|122(7)|142(7)|151(8)|163(4)|174(12)|190(13)|204(8)|227(6)|242(14)|255(12)|266(12)|278(4)|300(1)|313(1)|326(1)|338(1)|351(9)|365(9)|377(11)|389(1)|401(14)|417(10)|429(12)|440(10)|457(10)|470(17)|479(10)|491(14)|515(2)|536(1)|554(12)|565(14)|574(7)|592(1)|601(14)|616(6)|627(12)|636(13)|649(11)|657(10)|670(12)|686(8)|699(6)|717(14)|731(9)|744(4)|756(7)|767(10)|777(5)|791(11)|806(3)|814(11)|825(4)|836(2) 0 https://youtu.be/ul-muzWQs_k YouTube video English 30 Introduction to Interview Mr. Davis, I want to thank you again for taking time out of your schedule to come back because you have so much information. In addition to Movement history, just history of Birmingham and the history of the development of politics in Birmingham. So, again, thank you for coming. 33.5161, -86.8145 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 56 Involvement in Politics Tell me just a bit about your involvement in politics. How did you get involved in politics in Birmingham? Reuben Davis explains how he didn't get involved in politics until he registered to vote, after that he joined a few different organizations. Voter registration--United States Alabama ; Collegeville (Birmingham, Ala.) ; France ; Franklin D. Roosevelt and the era of the New Deal ; Hudson K-8 (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Progressive Democratic Council ; The Civic League (Birmingham, Ala.) ; The Civic Youth Federation (Birmingham, Ala.) ; The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 434 Economics in the Black Community How did that impact upon your community, the focus on economics? Reuben Davis explains the economic issues for black workers, and how hard it was to advance into higher positions due to discrimination. Economics ; Unions AFL-CIO ; Alabama ByProducts Corporation ; American Cast Iron Pipe Company ; ByProduct ; Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company ; McWane, Inc. ; Sloss Furnace Company ; Stockham Pipe &amp ; Fittings Co. ; United States Pipe and Foundry Company 661 Being Associated with Communist Between 1945 and 1955 or so, it was called &quot ; The Red Scare.&quot ; The McCarthy Era. How did that impact upon you as a union officer? Reuben Davis explains how when blacks were making progress that sometimes they were be targeted as being a communist. Black Progress ; Communism ; Communist ; Music Ban ; Racist Symbols ; Wrongful Termination Alabama ; Birmingham News ; Federal Bureau of Investigation ; Hudson, Hosea ; Paul Robeson Archives ; Russia ; The McCarthy Era ; The Red Scare 894 Asbury Howard Did you know Asbury Howard? Reuben Davis explains his relationship to Asbury Howard and his impact on the community. Asbury Howard ; Court House ; School field trips Bessemer City Hall (Ala.) ; Bessemer Voter's League ; International Union of Mine, Mill, and Smelter Workers ; New York ; Philadelphia (Penn.) ; Washington D.C. 974 Interracial Social Interaction What do you remember about it? Reuben Davis explains the social interactions between blacks and whites, and the expectations whites had for being addressed a certain way. Foreman ; Racism Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company 1141 Tractor Incident and Helping Out a Stranger But, while I was working for that company, I was a tractor operator and I made it a habit of checking the oil in the tractor every morning before starting it. Reuben Davis discusses the time his tractor got sabotaged by someone as his work, as well the time when he helped this white man who was stranded in Collegeville. Bible. New Testament ; Sabotage American Salvation Army ; Birmingham YMCA ; Collegeville (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Louisville and Nashville Railroad Company ; Tarrant City (Ala.) 1544 Being an Educator In addition to being active in political organizations, active with the labor movement, you also became a teacher? Reuben Davis discusses what it was like being an auto mechanic instructor for the Bessemer School System. Alabama A &amp ; M University ; Bessemer (Ala.) ; Bessemer High School (Bessemer, Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Dunbar High School (Bessemer, Ala.) ; Flint (Mich.) ; General Motors Institute 1899 Opportunities of Running for Office and Owning a Business As you progressed in developing your techniques for teaching, you also remained in politics. What was the first office that you ran for? Reuben Davis expresses about the times he has run for public offices, as well as the time he thought about starting his own mechanic shop. County Commissioner ; Lawsuit--Discrimination ; Progressives Al Picket Equipment Company ; Arrington, Richard ; Bell, William ; Bessemer Board of Education (Bessemer, Ala.) ; Birmingham News ; Birmingham Trust ; Collegeville (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Democratic National Convention ; Jefferson County (Ala.) ; Norwood (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Progressive Democratic Council 2637 Experience Being County Commissioner What was that experience like as a County Commissioner? Reuben Davis discusses the issues he covered while being on the Jefferson County Commission. Bonner, Elizabeth ; Cooper Green Hospital (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Jefferson County (Ala.). County Commission ; Jefferson County (Ala.). Personnel Board ; Jim Gunner ; John Katapodis ; Supervisor of Maternal and Infant Care 3100 Losing Re-election for County Commissioner Why do you think you were not re-elected? Reuben Davis explains why he was not re-elected due to conflicts on taxes and where money should go in the city. Endorsements ; Hospital closures Arrington, Richard ; Birmingham-Jefferson Civic Complex (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Cooper Green Hospital (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Jefferson County (Ala.). County Commission ; Occupational Tax (Birmingham, Ala.) 3309 Million Man March Since then, we've had an event that has been, obviously world renowned that was the Million Man March. What was your opinion of the Million Man March, and did you attend? Reuben Davis talks about attending the Million Man March. American political parties and elections Democratic Party (U.S.) ; Million Man March (1995 : Washington, D.C.) ; Mississippi ; Republican Party (U.S.) 3437 Significance of Million Man March Why do you think that the Million Man March was so significant? Reuben Davis explains how the coming together of black people at the Million Man March can help destroy racism. Black Brothers ; Black Communities ; Destruction ; Racisim ; Strength Martin Luther King, Jr. and the Civil Rights Movement ; Million Man March (1995 : Washington, D.C.) ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 3508 Combatting Racism in Present Day How then do you account for the ways in which White people versus Black people view the Rodney King situation, the O. J. Simpson case and the Million Man March. And, most recently, of course the beating of the Mexican man and woman out in California? Reuben Davis expresses how in today's world we can still combat the acts of discrimination and racism. Discrimination--United States ; Racial profiling in law enforcement ; Racial violence AIDS (Disease) ; California ; Carver, George Washington, 1864?-1943 ; King, Rodney, 1965-2012 ; Million Man March (1995 : Washington, D.C.) ; O. J. Simpson ; Washington, Booker T., 1856-1915 3646 Interpreting Media Coverage of the Million Man March Let me just ask you about, in relation to the Million Man March, the media consistently talked about &quot ; separating the message from the messenger.&quot ; How did you interpret that? Reuben Davis explains his thoughts on what the saying means about &quot ; separating the message from the messenger&quot ; . Religion Farrakhan, Louis ; Garvey, Marcus ; Million Man March (1995 : Washington, D.C.) 3752 Conclusion of Interview Thank you, Mr. Davis. Oral History Reuben Davis II discusses how his work with the labor movement lead to his political career. He served as one term as a Jefferson County Commissioner. HUNTLEY: Mr. Davis, I want to thank you again for taking time out of your schedule to come back because you have so much information. In addition to Movement history, just history of Birmingham and the history of the development of politics in Birmingham. So, again, thank you for coming. DAVIS: I don&#039 ; t think I could have done anything more exciting than being here with you, no question about that. HUNTLEY: Tell me just a bit about your involvement in politics. did you get involved in politics in Birmingham? How? DAVIS: Well, my first interest in politics, and I&#039 ; 11 shall never forget it. I was in (Inaudible), France. It was during the time, in 1945, President Roosevelt was up for re-election and I applied for a ballot to vote for the President. I received a letter from Alabama. It had a title, &quot ; Dear Alabamian, you are not on our list of qualified voters and you have to apply to be qualified before you can vote.&quot ; And something made me see then this ballot must be very important. That was the very first thing I did after getting out. I was discharged in &#039 ; 45. This happened in the early part, it was during an election year. I was discharged on the 9th of December, which was a Friday. That following Monday, I qualified to vote. When I qualified to vote in Collegeville, where there was more than 8,000 Black people living within less than a square mile radius, but there were only 11 qualified voters. HUNTLEY: What was the process of your qualifying to vote? DAVIS: At that time I went to the courthouse and applied. I had no problem whatsoever. HUNTLEY: Did they ask you any questions? DAVIS: They asked me no questions whatsoever. I later found that would allow some to go through like that. I guess I came at a time that I was supposed to get by. But, I found the ballot to be power. Immediately I joined with the Progressive Democratic Council, and I knew, sooner or later, the conditions and opportunity to be involved in the political arena would have to change. HUNTLEY: Who were some of the people who were involved with the Progressive Democratic Council at that time? DAVIS: In Collegeville there were Mr. J. R. Hatchett, Mr. L. F. Berry, Mr. Mobile and Bart Washington, you know him. He&#039 ; s in a coma now in the hospital. Those are some names I remember. They were active with the Progressive Democratic Council. HUNTLEY: What was the object of the Council at the time? What did they concentrate on? DAVIS: At that time you had in the communities what was known as Civic League. The Civic League was scattered all over the county and that was kind of a branch of the Progressive Democratic Council. But just looking over the past, it&#039 ; s clear to me that the ballots were very scarce, but we few that did vote would get together and try to select the best White candidate. We had some we would look through the background of individuals and decide that we would cast our votes with the best White candidate. There were no Blacks to vote for. HUNTLEY: How did the Civic League actually work? DAVIS: The Civic League was organized for a community purpose and I have some letterhead. In my community, I guess I was in my early 20s at the time, I was elected President of the Civic Youth Federation. These were young people. HUNTLEY: Within the Civic League itself? DAVIS: Yes, within the Civic League. And, Dr. Macklin, R. B. Macklin was a doctor in the north Birmingham area and he paid for letterhead for our group. And, I still have some now. But, with that letterhead I took on, singlehandedly, that was back in &#039 ; 46 or &#039 ; 47, after I got out of the service -- it was a lot of Italian stores in the community. So, I went around to each one of them and tell them that if they would hire a Black clerk, then we would turn the trade into them. I was able to get a Black woman hired on a job like that. HUNTLEY: In each of the stores? DAVIS: Not in each of them. But, I was able to get one at a store right behind Hudson School. HUNTLEY: Now, were you doing this as an individual or was this a part of the Civic League of the Progressives? DAVIS: This was done because the people had elected me as President of the youth element and I decided to just take that on. At that time we had no street lights and no sidewalks. The only sidewalks in Collegeville were if the owners of the property put them there themselves. There was no connection at all with city hall. We had one paved street and my dad lived on 27th Avenue and that was the only paved street. It was for the convenience of the industry coming from north Birmingham to east Birmingham. But, the taxpayers on that street had to pay for that. HUNTLEY: Were you ever involved with the NAACP? DAVIS: Yes, I joined the NAACP and was a member until they disbanded it. You know they outlawed the NAACP after the Movement really got off the ground. In other words, it wasn&#039 ; t permitted to be active in Alabama. But I was a member. HUNTLEY: Did you ever have any activity as far as voter registration was concerned, either with the Progressives or with the NAACP? DAVIS: No. I didn&#039 ; t. I became interested in labor working for the railroad. Mr. Hatcher worked for the railroad. Mr. Berry worked for the railroad. And, after becoming active with the labor organization, then my interest focused then on economics for Black people. HUNTLEY: How did that impact upon your community, the focus on economics? DAVIS: One thing at that time, it was common that practically everyone that wanted a job could get a job. You had industries such as U.S. Pipe shop, you had Sloss, you had By­ Product, you had the L&amp ; N Railroad Company. You had ACIPICO, you had McWane and Stockham and all these places, there was no question about getting a job. But the thing about it, all the jobs available were lower end and the most difficult of working. I became active in trying to -- immediately after the Movement-- I became interested then in trying to force and encourage young folks that work at the plants to advance in jobs that wasn&#039 ; t available to them. And, I ran into situations where union contracts were such that they discriminated within its own ranks. They had what was known as departmental seniority. That meant, if I was hired as a laborer in a certain department, I couldn&#039 ; t move out that department to another. It created a problem. HUNTLEY: Rather than company seniority? DAVIS: That&#039 ; s right. This meant that a White person could be hired as a brick layer for U.S. Pipe. A Black man that had experience. In other words, these guys were handling all the bricks and mixing the mortar and the White man was just taking the brick, putting it in place in the hot oven. Well, Black laborers had to put the bricks in order according to where they were supposed to be, but they weren&#039 ; t permitted to become a brick mason until we finally got the government involved. HUNTLEY: So that was another tactic to use to keep Black workers at that minimal level? DAVIS: No question about it. The union itself devised that method. In other words, Black men had praises for seniority, but there weren&#039 ; t any jobs in that department, your seniority had no meaning. HUNTLEY: Was your union affiliated with the AFL? DAVIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And the AFL had a history of being basically anti-Black? DAVIS: That&#039 ; s exactly right. HUNTLEY: Did you have any relationship with the unions in the CIO? DAVIS: Well, I did from working with U.S. Pipe and Foundry Company. I think it was District 50, that was the title of it. The head of District 50 was a man named Moffet in Washington. Rayvon Hinton was working for U.S. Pipe and Rayvon, (Inaudible) on a job as crane operator. They had to give him the opportunity to train, but in the process of him cubbing, he and this White fellow had some odds and so the White man struck him and he struck him back, so they fired Rayvon. That&#039 ; s when I became involved. I went to the union headquarters in Washington dealing with that issue. From that I was able to get the government involved in looking at discriminatory practices at U.S. Pipe. I have some letters, you saw the file I have from Washington on that. HUNTLEY: Between 1945 and 1955 or so, it was called &quot ; The Red Scare.&quot ; The McCarthy Era. How did that impact upon you as a union officer? DAVIS: Well, it is strange that you asked that. When I was fired from the railroad in 1950, I came home. The very next day I received a postcard from New York and this post card had information on it that was telling me that they could help me. That I was fired illegally and a lot of things they said was nice. But I was afraid that it was a scare, in other words, I knew the problem of being branded as a communist. Dr. Ballot, a physician in Birmingham many years ago, spoke at our church one Sunday and he said, &quot ; Anytime a Black man made any move towards progress, they&#039 ; ll brand him as a communist.&quot ; Well, when I received this postcard, the very next day I carried it to the FBI. They were located down the street from The Birmingham News. I walked in and gave this agent the card. He looked at me and he said, &quot ; How did your name get on that list?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I have no idea.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Have a seat over there and see if you can&#039 ; t figure out how your name got on the list.&quot ; &quot ; What organization are you a member of.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m a scout master, a member of the labor organization, a mason and a church member.&quot ; You might recall there was some type of training camp. A lot of fellows from the post office went away and they were suspected of being trained to be communists. It was a scary thing. Even Paul Robeson was almost destroyed because of his activities. I remember as a young man, I went to Pizitz to buy a record of Paul Robeson, Old Man River, and the lady looked at me and she said, &quot ; We do not have his records.&quot ; Well, I really didn&#039 ; t know they were banded. I said, &quot ; Why?&quot ; &quot ; Well, just don&#039 ; t have his records.&quot ; So I walked out. I later found out because he was supposed to be a communist, they destroyed them. They hurt a lot of people in that process. HUNTLEY: Did you know Hosea Hudson? DAVIS: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: Hosea wrote a book about his life, a Black working the deep south. He talks about his activities with the union, but he was an avowed communist. DAVIS: Yes, Mr. Hudson lived in east Birmingham, Greenwood area. At that time you would wake up in the morning and you would see little leaflets on your porch and you don&#039 ; t know how they got there. But, somebody was always spreading information around. But you know, as I look back at that, I wrote a poem and I&#039 ; ll share it with you. In my opinion, the American government was not fearful of communism ; they were fearful of knowledge of Black people being exposed to the point that they would accept. That&#039 ; s my interpretation. Now, based on the fact that Russia&#039 ; s symbol was a bear, but now the bear is a pussy cat and racism is still alive. But the bear is dead. In my opinion, they weren&#039 ; t fighting communism anymore ; they were thinking that communism would advance the cause of Black people. HUNTLEY: Did you know Asbury Howard? DAVIS: Oh, yes I knew Mr. Howard. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me anything about him? DAVIS: Mr. Howard was a unique person. I knew him. He would sponsor a tour for the kids in the Bessemer school system. And this tour would go to Washington, New York, Philadelphia all the scenic places. The parent would have to pay just a little money. If they didn&#039 ; t have any, somehow they would have a chance to go. I had a chance to go on that tour with the kids as a chaperon for the boys. But he was really strong, civic minded individual, way ahead of his time. HUNTLEY: He was a laborer in the Mine, Mill &amp ; Smelter Workers Union? DAVIS: That&#039 ; s right, yes. HUNTLEY: President of the Bessemer Voter&#039 ; s League. DAVIS: Right. HUNTLEY: And, he eventually was elected to the (Inaudible). DAVIS: Yes, that&#039 ; s right. I knew him personally. He was a quite a fellow. HUNTLEY: Do you remember when he and his son were attacked in the Bessemer City Hall? DAVIS: Oh, yes. And he had a picture in his office where they struck him and his shirt was all bloody where the police officers attacked him. HUNTLEY: Do you remember that incident actually took place? DAVIS: Oh, yes. I was in Bessemer at that time. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about it? DAVIS: Well, you know it was a no-no for a Black person to make any forward moves that wasn&#039 ; t approved by Whites. Mr. Howard was just a person that had no fear and he was insistent on doing what he thought was right to do. Any White person at that time, more aptly the police officer, but any White person at that time had somewhat of influence to the point that they could attack or threaten a Black man and no recourse. I remember at the L&amp ; N my foreman, Mr. Mulvaney. You see, I was taught at home that all elderly people was &#039 ; Mr&#039 ; . and &#039 ; Mrs.&#039 ; so it was no problem for me to say Mr. to a White person, not because he&#039 ; s White, but because he was elderly. So, what happened, Mr. Mulvaney, the foreman sent me to the back shop to get a 14&quot ; pipe wrench. So I went to the back shop. He said, &quot ; Go tell Wade Bradley to send me a 14&quot ; pipe wrench.&quot ; It was just that simple. If he had said Mr. Bradley, I would have said Mr. Bradley. So, when I arrived at the back shop, the first fellow I saw was a White fellow operating a lathe. I stopped. I said, &quot ; Can you tell me where I can find Wade Bradley?&quot ; He looked at me he didn&#039 ; t say one word. I said it a little louder because I thought he didn&#039 ; t hear me operating this lathe. I said, &quot ; Can you tell me where I can find Wade Bradley?&quot ; He looked around and he gripped a wrench. He said, &quot ; You mean, Mr. Bradley, don&#039 ; t you?&quot ; I said, &quot ; You heard what I said.&quot ; I had committed myself and I wasn&#039 ; t about to change. So when he gripped the wrench, I picked up a hammer. Now, that was just because I was addressing him by his name. Now, that gives you an idea of the conditions that took place at that time. This was a White man and I was a Black man. I was a safety leader for my department and it was a young White fellow who was an apprentice carpenter. He referred to me as Davis I referred to him as Cobbs. So, one morning in the safety meeting, the foreman, Mr. Dewitt says that &quot ; Some of you fellows is getting too familiar with these White men, calling them by their first names and you know things haven&#039 ; t changed here.&quot ; So, when he finished his speech, I said, &quot ; Mr . Dewitt, you didn&#039 ; t call the name as to who might have done that. But I refer to Cobb as Cobb and he refers to me as Davis--You, Mr. Dewitt, because you&#039 ; re my foreman.&quot ; He never said a word. But, while I was working for that company, I was a tractor operator and I made it a habit of checking the oil in the tractor every morning before starting it. And, so one morning I put the dip stick in and checked it and it came out clear. I put some oil in it and put it in again, it was so clear I was somewhat startled. I found out that the crank heads were filled with gasoline. If I had started that vehicle, it would have actually went up. Because being an old foldsome tractor and if you know anything about internal combustion engines, gasoline only started by a spark. Heat won&#039 ; t start gasoline. So, if I had cranked it up and one of those cylinders fired and that gas vapor had come around the type of the cylinder head or piston, it would have blown up like a bomb. So after I found that, for whatever reason I wasn&#039 ; t excited about it. I asked someone to pull it to the back shop and drain the gasoline out and went on. HUNTLEY: There was never an investigation? DAVIS: Never an investigation.No questions about that. HUNTLEY: You didn&#039 ; t carry that any further? DAVIS: No.No I didn&#039 ; t try. HUNTLEY: Did you ever mention it to anybody? DAVIS: Several fellows knew about it. It was filled with gasoline. HUNTLEY: So it was an attempt to get rid of you? DAVIS: Well, I was branded as a trouble maker. What happened, Mr. Berry, was the man that recommended me for hire. My dad didn&#039 ; t vouch for me. I don&#039 ; t know why he didn&#039 ; t want me to work out there. He wanted me to go to school, but I wanted to work. So, Mr. Berry received a letter from an international representative &#039 ; s office, Mr. Ray Abner out of Louisville, Kentucky. And, Mr. Abner, responding to the master mechanics conversation, asked him how was things at (Inaudible). He said, &quot ; Everything is fine here but Davis. He&#039 ; s the only trouble maker we have.&quot ; When I found out that the master mechanic had classified me as a trouble maker, I got my committee together and we were going to the master mechanic&#039 ; s office and they asked me where was the problem . I said, &quot ; Well, I understand that Mr. Mcwilliams referred to me as a trouble maker. I want him to prove it.&quot ; So, the men didn&#039 ; t want me to do that. They said, &quot ; Son, don&#039 ; t do that.&quot ; I said, &quot ; That is a gross insult to me and every man I represent.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ve only upheld the rules according to their print. I kept an agreement book and a New Testament in my pocket all the time. I read both of them. So, I insisted on going to the master mechanic&#039 ; s office. When I got up there I wrote, &quot ; I had the Director of Personnel from Louisville, Kentucky come to respond to my request that the master mechanic had accused me of being a trouble maker&quot ; . So, the first thing the Director of Personnel asked, his name was J. L. Sullivan, he said &quot ; Davis, did the master mechanic curse, say any bad words to you?&quot ; I said, &quot ; No, I never been cursed in my life.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, how did he insult you?&quot ; I said, &quot ; It appears that only through curse words can one be insulted.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, you&#039 ; re the local chairman, the company is not going to allow our master mechanics to mistreat our local chairmen and by the same take, we &#039 ; re not going to allow our local chairmen to insult the master mechanics.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Mr. Sullivan, it seems as if you only think that a person is insulted by profane language.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Mr . Mcwilliams is a master mechanic, isn&#039 ; t he?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Yes.&quot ; I said, &quot ; If he was in the back shop among the labor that I represent and I would call him, &#039 ; Hey Mac, come I want to talk to you a minute&#039 ; , would I insult him?&quot ; He never said a word and that dismissed that. You see the point in question, Black people were submissive under the spell of power of Whites. Any White man had authority over Black and I couldn&#039 ; t swallow that. I just absolutely could not handle that. I respected them. On one occasion, I was leaving my job at 11:00 that night. On my way home on 27th Avenue, just before you cross the railroad tracks there coming into Collegeville, I saw something move out there. My mind said go out there and see what it was. I went out there. Here was a White man laying out there in the grass. So I said, &quot ; What&#039 ; s the problem?&quot ; He said, &quot ; I was with some friends and they kicked me out the car.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Friends?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Yes . Could you give me car fare to the Salvation Army?&quot ; Now, at this time car fare was seven cents, so you knew about how long it&#039 ; s been. Tarrant City No. 22 was running from Tarrant. So, when he spoke about the Salvation Army I told him, I said, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; 11 take you.&quot ; When I got him up and in my car and he saw my Black face, he asked me a dozen times on our way. I was trying to find the Salvation Army because I didn&#039 ; t know where it was. He said, &quot ; Why is it you stopped to help me? You&#039 ; re a Black man and I&#039 ; m White.&quot ; I said , &quot ; I saw a man who need help.&quot ; Finally, I was thinking the Salvation Army was on the south side over by the hospital. So, I came up to the &#039 ; Y&#039 ; where AmSouth&#039 ; s new building is now there is was a YMCA. I saw the door opened so I walked into the &#039 ; Y&#039 ; . There was a White gentleman at the desk. I told him there was a White man out there from north Alabama stranded and he needed a bed for the night and if he didn&#039 ; t pay him, I would. So he said, &quot ; We don&#039 ; t have any beds.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Where is the Salvation Army?&quot ; He said, &quot ; It&#039 ; s on 11th Avenue.&quot ; Well then I went over to 11th Avenue and it&#039 ; s about 11:30 or 12:00 then. After getting him there and this man stated, &quot ; I&#039 ; m not ready for you to leave.&quot ; Then I explained to him, I said, &quot ; I could not pass an opportunity of helping a man that was in need of help.&quot ; He embraced me and kissed me on my cheek and said, &quot ; I&#039 ; 11 never forget you. &quot ; Now, I wou1dn&#039 ; t know him if I saw him today and I don&#039 ; t think he would know me. But that was just a nature that I have. I found that in order to be effective, you have got to love people. There&#039 ; s no question about that. We cannot win the battle ( Inaudible) without love. HUNTLEY: In addition to being active in political organizations, active with the labor movement, you also became a teacher? DAVIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: You became a teacher though as a result of being dismissed from your job with the railroad. DAVIS: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: How did you make the transition from labor leader/organizer to educator? DAVIS: Well, what happened, I wanted to be a mechanic. Cars were popular then. Women weren&#039 ; t driving at that time, not much anyway because they had standard shifts. At any rate, I saw a future there. I wanted to be the first Black person to have a service station in Birmingham. I tried to sell cars. 0. C. Hall had a car dealership in north Birmingham. I went to his office, applied for the job. He gave me a little test and I passed the test. And, then he said, &quot ; You passed the test all right. We&#039 ; re going to make a bird dog out of you.&quot ; In other words, my job was to get a sale and hold it for a real salesman to come by and get the money. I wouldn&#039 ; t accept that. But, however, I wanted to have a business in auto mechanics. I had an interest in auto mechanics. My uncle was an auto mechanic in World War I. I followed him. And, then I went to school for auto mechanics. I attended the General Automotive Institute in Flint, Michigan. When I came back and got fired from the railroad, well, what happened, I went to J. Truitt Payne. I was dressed in a blue suit, White shirt, blue tie and shined shoes. HUNTLEY: You told us about that part of the story. But how did you get to Michigan? Did you decide to go to Michigan for schooling? Or, were you going to Michigan to find a job.DAVIS: I went to Flint after I had started teaching school. MotorsInstitutewasthe only resourceI had instruction materialfor my students.I went to Motors Institute on my own, at my own expense and was General to get General getting different type of literature concerning engines and theory and I still have some information now. And, that enhanced my chances of sharing with my students. HUNTLEY: So you were teaching auto mechanics in the Bessemer school system at Dunbar High School. DAVIS: That&#039 ; s right. But, the see the thing about it, when I went to Dunbar I really never planned to teach school. They wanted me to use obsolete equipment that Bessemer High, the White school, had used up and I wouldn&#039 ; t accept it. And, the results of it were I found out that General Motors was very generous to educational programs. I later found that I could go to General Motors Institute during the summer months and get additional training and theory and instruction materials and that&#039 ; s where I was able to get that. HUNTLEY: So you did that on your own? DAVIS: On my own. I paid for it. HUNTLEY: Then you returned in the fall and how did that enhance your ability to work with your students? DAVIS: Well, Bessemer High School would be in that shop at school. HUNTLEY: This is the White school? DAVIS: Right. Bessemer High was a White school. They could go to Drennan&#039 ; s for hands on work. But the school system was not preparing my students for employment. We had the shop for name purposes only. They never intended for my students to become competitive as mechanics. But I was interested in that. And I was able to turn out some good mechanics. HUNTLEY: Where were they able to work after they finished? DAVIS: Well, I have several young mechanics that are working on their own. They have their own business. The job opportunities were very limited. I never mind starting at the bottom and I taught my students, every one, I said, &quot ; Anytime you&#039 ; re looking and want to get a job,&quot ; I said, &quot ; You go ask for an opportunity to prove that you (Inaudible) that job.&quot ; For instance, I said, &quot ; A man might have a service station. Tell him that you would work for him a week before you decide what salary you&quot ; re entitled to. Let him know that you can be an asset to him.&quot ; That was the kind of teaching that I shared. You didn&#039 ; t get that at Alabama A&amp ; M. The results were that my students got a bit of moral character about their work and also I gave them strong instructions. When you see a person stranded, help them. The money is not the primary objective. If you do what you&#039 ; re supposed to do, when the opportunity for money come, people look for you to give it to you. HUNTLEY: As you progressed in developing your techniques for teaching, you also remained in politics. What was the first office that you ran for? DAVIS: The first office I ran for was a delegate to the Democratic Convention. HUNTLEY: What year was that? DAVIS: That was back in 1970. The Birmingham News stated I was the first Black person to run for that position. HUNTLEY: Did you win it? DAVIS: No, no. I didn&#039 ; t win. But, then I became interested in County Commissioner. Eddie Gilmore, a commissioner, died in &#039 ; 71 and there were about 17 candidates, all White. Tom Groves was among the group and he finally won. When I found out that 17 Whites were involved, and I, being a member of the Progressive Democratic Council, we had quite a bit of votes at that time. It was after &#039 ; 65. I waited until the last minute on the last day to qualify. The paper was stating whether the governor would appoint a person. But, finally they decided to run it for an elected position. So, after I qualified, just a few minutes before closing time, and it came out in the paper that a schoolteacher from Bessemer qualified. Now, I would have won that election if I had gotten the blessings of the Progressive Democratic Council. HUNTLEY: Now, the Progressive Democratic Council at the time was the leading Black organization? DAVIS: It was the only Black organization politically activated. But, what really happened then and I&#039 ; m ashamed to say, could possibly happen now. Black people are still being sold. You see, Arthur Shores at that time was head of the Progressive Democratic Council, but Bob Washington was a man that I had known, so I went to Bob and told him that I was going to qualify for County Commission. He called me by my street name. They call me Bubba. He said, &quot ; Bubba, you know if you would be a County Commissioner, you would be handling millions of dollars. What kind of large interest you&#039 ; ve had and money that you&#039 ; d count.&quot ; Now, he&#039 ; d known me all my life. I said, &quot ; Bob, I built a home. That&#039 ; s far as I&#039 ; ve gone. I can make decisions no matter how many dollars, it&#039 ; s the decisions that counts.&quot ; So, we left it like that and I felt literally that he didn&#039 ; t recognize my interest in people. And the results of it, they elected Tom Grove. But, the White vote was split 17 ways. I found out that it was a gentlemen on the Progressives who was the only real estate appraiser in Birmingham. I can&#039 ; t think of his name right now. But, at any rate, he told me the committee approved me. HUNTLEY: The committee in the Progressives? DAVIS: Within the circle of the Progressives approved to support me. But, when the ballots came out, Tom Grove&#039 ; s name was on it. You see there is a segment among us that some people is satisfied as long as they are advanced personally . But I took a position, I&#039 ; m not secure unless my brother behind me is secure. I can&#039 ; t shake that off. I paid a dear price for that, because when I was working for the railroad everyone was promoted but me. But I considered myself as being successful. If we would just realize that if they come by today to take me, if someone don&#039 ; t do something about it, they are going to come to get you. So, I had an opportunity to work, to go in business and probably would have made a good salary, but I would have been doing it for the White man only and I couldn&#039 ; t do that. HUNTLEY: What was that position? DAVIS: Well, Lee Styslinger owned Al Picket Equipment Company. HUNTLEY: What&#039 ; s the person&#039 ; s name? DAVIS: Lee Styslinger. He&#039 ; s President of Al Picket Equipment Company. He&#039 ; s a very nice man. He has some boys. I think my little boy and his little boy are about the same age. But, at that time I was the caretaker of his property. I was living in an industrial at that time. HUNTLEY: Is that in Collegeville? DAVIS: It was a part of Norwood, where Vanderbilt Crossing is in the area. So, one evening I stopped Mr. Styslinger, I said, &quot ; Mr . Styslinger.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Yes, Reuben. &quot ; HUNTLEY: Can you spell that? DAVIS: S-T-Y that&#039 ; s the way it starts. HUNTLEY: Styslinger? DAVIS: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Okay. DAVIS: I said, &quot ; It&#039 ; s an excellent opportunity for a Black man to go into business. Because what I had done earlier, I had went to Birmingham Trust to see Mr. Dick. I had my plans for my shop and how I would lay it out and I only needed $2,500. HUNTLEY: This is a mechanic shop? DAVIS: A mechanic shop.And, Mr. Dick stated that &quot ; You have a good plan, a good idea, but we can&#039 ; t approve your loan.&quot ; He said, &quot ; You&#039 ; re not asking for enough money.&quot ; Him being a banker all he was supposed to do was advise me and say, why don&#039 ; t you ask for $5,000. But, I told him head up, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t make it a practice of borrowing money I don&#039 ; t need. So, what happened, when I mentioned to Mr. Styslinger concerning going into business, he readily agreed. He said, &quot ; Let&#039 ; s go back in the office, sit down and talk.&quot ; Went back and talked and he said, &quot ; Reuben, let me know how much money you need, how many people you&quot ; re going to work, how much you&#039 ; re going to pay them and approximately how long you think it will take for the business to turn a cycle.&quot ; So, I had all that in my head. But I gave him the two weeks and I came back. He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; 11 deposit the money in the bank in your name and you write checks.&quot ; And, when he said that I said, &quot ; How do I pay you back?&quot ; He said, &quot ; You don&#039 ; t pay me back.&quot ; And I was startled then. I looked at him and he said, &quot ; What&#039 ; s the problem?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I can&#039 ; t accept your offer.&quot ; And, I walked away from that. You see, you remember the drive-in theater in Bessemer? HUNTLEY: Sure. DAVIS: Mr. James Bend. That organization, that drive-in, belonged to a doctor in Bessemer. Mr. Bend was running it for him. I could not use Black people like that. And, I didn&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: So you decided you had to be your own person? DAVIS: That&#039 ; s exactly right. In other words, if I had accepted his money, I would have been operating his business and if I had gotten it to a point, use my influence as a Black person and using Black people as customers and what not, then I still was his man and I couldn&#039 ; t do that. HUNTLEY: At what point did you run for office again? DAVIS: Well, the next time I ran I ran head up against Congressman Ben Erdich. At that time he ran for County Commission and I ran against him. I had gained a lot of respect from people in Jefferson County because I wrote a lot of editorials. In fact, the Bessemer Board, through the principal, threatened me about writing editorials. I felt it was my privilege. So I had a lot of people&#039 ; s attention by writing. So, when I ran a second time after Mr. Gilmore passed and Ben won the election by 10,000 votes. But, I received about 20,000+. He received about 35,000. He spent about $40,000. I spent less than $300. I didn&#039 ; t think money was actually a factor in the political situation and I think that&#039 ; s another problem that we have. You see, the ballot in America has been almost destroyed. The problems of politics was created in a political arena but it will never be solved there. When the people began to go after special interests, that money was pooled together for a common cause and those elected officials that took that money was locked into that system. So, I really didn&#039 ; t understand that because I was looking, more or less, wanting to be a Commissioner for all the people. There was no room for decent men in politics at the time that I entered. They couldn&#039 ; t handle that. And, I don&#039 ; t regret being re-elected because the fact that I could have given my character away and I would have been a Commissioner for life. HUNTLEY: When were you eventually elected to the County Commissioner? DAVIS: Well, do you remember Walter Jackson, Ron&#039 ; s brother? HUNTLEY: Yes. DAVIS: Okay. Walter and I and Dr. McPherson had gotten together and drew up a charge to file a suit against the county for discrimination. HUNTLEY: What year was this? DAVIS: That had to have been around &#039 ; 70 or &#039 ; 71, something like that. But, at any rate, the county contends, and they were going to use me as a witness, that a Black could win county wide. But, they compromised before that. They subpoenaed me to appear in court. But the results of it, they compromised and set up the districts. But, now, when I ran head up against Ben Erdrich, there was a situation, in other words my name was leading the line in Blacks as far as politics was concerned. And, so I then my focus was on the county commission. So, when the districts were set up, Lee Lowder also ran and I ran. At that time, William Bell threatened to run. I was visiting the breakfast (Inaudible) every Sunday morning. And one morning, one of the fellows at the breakfast asked William, he said, &quot ; You&#039 ; re present of the Council, what do you want to be a County Commissioner for?&quot ; I saw a little shimmy in his knee and I knew then that something was wrong. So, finally what happened, I was home cutting my grass one Saturday. My wife said Dr. Gaston was on the phone. Dr. Gaston never called me before. So I went to the phone and he said, &quot ; Reuben?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Yes, sir, Dr. Gaston.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Come by the office, we&#039 ; ll see about winning this election.&quot ; The very next week Mayor Arrington and his wife came by. Dr. Arrington stated, &quot ; Reuben, I come by to tell you that Bell is not going to run.&quot ; Now, what I gathered out of that. I think that some powers that be was afraid I would win without their support and so they came in at the last stage. I won with overwhelmingly. I had over 90% of the Black vote and 30% of the White vote. HUNTLEY: Were you supported by the Coalition at the time? DAVIS: Yes.I was backed by the Coalition. HUNTLEY: What was that experience like as a County Commissioner? DAVIS: Well, I knew I would get it sooner or later. And, I went in with my head down. Being the first one to sit in that office because they built that office. I even bought the furniture before I was elected. But, I had asked my pastor to come and dedicate that office to God. I went in with my head down to be of service to the people of Jefferson County. Health care was my major interest. And, against crime. You see my interest in those areas was based on the fact that I knew that crime was not inherited. That if parents would accept their responsibility, as I mentioned to you children are perfect psychoanalysts. If a parent lets a child go too far, giving him what he wants, it&#039 ; ll get out of hand and you can no longer hold him. If a parent was responsible to parenting, we could kill crime overnight. So that was a part of program and I later mentioned in the County Commission that we should pass a resolution for parent accountability for conduct of minor children, but they laughed at that. This country cannot exist with a budget for health care, crime and welfare as they exist today. Now, health care, I had about 50 people to get together and develop a program for health care of Jefferson County that goes into the year 2000. And in this I charged them with the responsibility of having a strong emphasis on preventive care. I wanted clinics built all over the county like parks, where kids could walk to a clinic. It didn&#039 ; t have to be a building, it could be a mobile unit, but just where you could be close. It was nothing really new about the idea, because I felt God made the body self-sustaining. Food itself is medicine. If people learn how to eat well and all this bad air we breathing have some effect and the companies are responsible for that, but I felt that we could fight and win the battle for health over a long term with preventive care. The doctors didn&#039 ; t like me for that, so I had to go. HUNTLEY: So you then became sort of a scapegoat? DAVIS: No question about that. You see, one of the major problems that I found and I didn&#039 ; t realize it was being a problem, because I&#039 ; m still thinking I&#039 ; m doing the right thing. In order words, the right thing in my mind is more important than the consequences behind it. And, there was a HRS one million dollars a year plus ten percent of all cash collections. And, I didn&#039 ; t like that. At the time I was elected, Cooper Green was threatening to be closed at any minute. But I was fortunate to get that contract torn. The people that supported me, John Catapotis supported that, and also, Jim Gunner. But, they were thinking that the hospital would cave in on me. But, I gave all the employees of HRS six months&#039 ; notice that they would receive the same pay. But after six months they would have to compete for the job on the county level. As a result of that five suits were filed against me because they didn&#039 ; t qualify for the job. It wasn&#039 ; t my fault. The County Personnel Board had established the requirements. My responsibility was if they sent me three names, to select one. I found that there was one particular case that the county, in fact I accused them of conspiracy and that&#039 ; s in the making right now. The Executive Officer of the hospital asked for a position to be established as a Supervisor of Maternal and Infant Care. The person that was the head of that department was Elizabeth Bonner, a Black female. The only nurse in the hospital that had a degree in midwifery. So, he came in and wanted the supervisory position established and he had a White female&#039 ; s name he wanted to serve in that capacity temporarily. So, I said, &quot ; John you can&#039 ; t do it like that.&quot ; He said, &quot ; What do you mean?&quot ; I said, &quot ; If you want the position established, you go to that department, starting at the head nurse. And, if all the nurses in the Maternal/Infant Care Department refuse to accept the temporary appointment, then you can appoint anyone you like because that&#039 ; s the only way you can do it.&quot ; So he was all upset. Later I&#039 ; m thinking he&#039 ; s following through on my instructions, but he still had (Inaudible). And, so one Friday evening about two weeks later, he called me about 5:30 at home. He said, &quot ; Co mmissioner.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Yes.&quot ; &quot ; This is John. I want you to come to the hospital right away.&quot ; I said, &quot ; What&#039 ; s the problem?&quot ; He said, &quot ; The doctors want to talk to you.&quot ; I said, &quot ; It&#039 ; s that important?&quot ; He said, &quot ; They are waiting on you now.&quot ; So I dressed and went to the hospital. When I got there, about 14 doctors were in the conference room. &quot ; Commissioner?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Yes . &quot ; &quot ; We&#039 ; re concerned about this position in Maternal and Infant Care.&quot ; I said, &quot ; What about it?&quot ; They said, &quot ; We want a qualified person in that position.&quot ; I said, &quot ; You have one.&quot ; &quot ; She ain&#039 ; t qualified.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Document it. Put your concerns in writing to me.&quot ; And one of the doctors, Dr. Goldberg stated, &quot ; Who is going to delivery these babies?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Gentlemen, it seems as if you all have a problem.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Pardon me.&quot ; And I left them. I knew I was standing on solid ground. Now, the results of it. When I wasn&#039 ; t re-elected the county attorney sent a man out to my home for me to sign an affidavit giving them authority to represent me in settling those cases. I consented with the understanding that I would be involved in the discussion of settlement, because I wanted to protect my name historically, as well as the decisions that I made. I didn&#039 ; t want to be charged with discriminating against White people or harassing Blacks. But, the next thing I knew I received a letter from Judge Acker, William Acker. It stated that &quot ; all parties to this case is present except Reuben Davis.&quot ; And it further stated &quot ; that there was no opposition from Davis.&quot ; Then, I hand-delivered a letter to Judge Acker informing him that I was not involved in settling that case and I made it clear that I wanted to be involved in the discussion of settlement. So, Judge Acker wrote a letter to all parties and all lawyers stating that he received a letter from me stating that I was not involved in the discussion of settlement of this case and he didn&#039 ; t know what to do with my letter. The next thing, I received a letter from the county attorney&#039 ; s office stating that &quot ; Commissioner, we were protecting your bank book and your property.&quot ; I wrote them a letter in response to that. I said, &quot ; You were authorized to protect my name and my character as a Commissioner, my historical record as a commissioner, not my money.&quot ; So that&#039 ; s a new game. This is in the making right now. HUNTLEY: Why do you think you were not re-elected? DAVIS: The only reason I wasn&#039 ; t re-elected was I didn&#039 ; t have the endorsement from Mayor Arrington.That&#039 ; s the only reason. HUNTLEY: Why did you not have that endorsement?You did have it the first time? DAVIS: I had it the first time.One thing that caused that, in my opinion -- occupational tax surfaced.There were several men from the Coalition who wanted to meet with me one Saturday about the occupational tax. They said, &quot ; Reuben, this tax will kill Birmingham.&quot ; That&#039 ; s all they could tell you.That was gone over and over again.I said,&quot ; Fellows,the county governmentneedsthismoney.CooperGreenHospitalis threatening to be closed, any minute.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Occupa tional tax is the salvation for the hospital.&quot ; So, after about two andahalfhoursof deliberation andweweren&#039 ; tgetting anywhere.I said, &quot ; Look, if you guys can come up with an idea as to how the county can raise some revenue, I&#039 ; ll take it back to the Commission.&quot ; So, we dismissed.That was Saturday. That Monday I met with the Mayor. Mayor Arrington told me the very same thing. He said, &quot ; Reuben, this tax will kill Birmingham.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Mayor, the county needs that money.&quot ; He put his hand on my shoulder and said, &quot ; Reuben, I understand. See if you can de1ay it.&quot ; I never asked him why. So I came back and talked to Chris and David Orange. I said, &quot ; I had a meeting with the Mayor and he wanted to know do we have to vote on this tax tomorrow. &quot ; It was Tuesday. So Chris said, &quot ; Man, you know we need that money and you know it&#039 ; s clean. There are no (Inaudible) about it. Tuesday morning I went in chamber and that resolution was leading the agenda and I voted to support it. At evening the Mayor comes into my office. He was pretty hot. He said, &quot ; Reuben, I never been so disappointed in my life.&quot ; I said, &quot ; What&#039 ; s the problem, Mayor?&quot ; &quot ; You supported that tax.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I never told you I wouldn&#039 ; t.&quot ; &quot ; I can&#039 ; t put up with this.&quot ; He went in circles talking about he couldn&#039 ; t put up with that. I was startled. And later now, you think about it. Later on, even after this, now, I voted to support the Civic Center. If I hadn&#039 ; t supported it, it wouldn&#039 ; t have gone through. Now, it takes three votes to run it. Jim Gunner and Catapotis was not in favor of the Civic Center expansion, but I supported it with the occupational tax money. If the occupational tax hadn&#039 ; t passed, the county wouldn&#039 ; t have had money to put in the Civic Center. So, it was some poor connections there somewhere. My interest was the people. My head was down. I was thinking that the people were watching my back. And, I misjudged the Black people&#039 ; s interest in the political process. I thought they were reading the newspaper and knew of the struggle I was having, trying to keep the hospital going. They knew what I had done and how I was being pressed and what not. Well, that told me that Black people did not have controls (Inaudible). And, I think that&#039 ; s where we are today. HUNTLEY: Since then, we&#039 ; ve had an event that has been, obviously world renowned that was the Million Man March. What was your opinion of the Million Man March, and did you attend? DAVIS: Yes. I attended and that was the most exciting moment of my life to be a part. To be in the crowd was the most exciting thing that ever happened to me. Based on the fact there is a serious problem in this country and the core of that problem is racism. Racism is a germ that it will have to be completely destroyed, otherwise it will surface and rebuild itself. My thinking of a million men all over the country, these men, such as myself, had realized that there was a problem in this country. There is a problem in the Black family. And, I wanted to be a part of the solution to that problem. Going to Washington, when I saw those men coming together that morning early from all directions, by the hundreds of thousands, I knew something very important was in the making here. And the results of it is this. We have had political power, but we blended our political power with White people&#039 ; s dollars. That&#039 ; s a bad combination. That won&#039 ; t hold water. That&#039 ; s like taking a sifter trying to clear out the Mississippi. Especially when you didn&#039 ; t need them. In my district, about 70% Black, if I get Black support, what I need with dollars? But, see that wasn&#039 ; t politics. And, I still hold that America still needs statesmen rather than politicians. Men that will stand on principal and not look back, but due to special interests of being integrated into the political process, it killed the force of the ballot. That &#039 ; s the reason that the Democratic Party has been destroyed and everybody from the Democrats are going Republican because that&#039 ; s the trend.White backlash is gaining momentum.It&#039 ; s gaining force. HUNTLEY: Why do you think that the Million Man March was so significant? DAVIS: The reason the Million Man March was so significant to me was because this is the first time that Black men had showed that kind of strength. And, the results of it, if we stand together as brothers, for the interest of our country, it goes back to things that have already been said. If America is saved, it will be saved by the soul of Black men, of Black people. So, I feel that once we have completed our work. And when I say completed our work, there will be no present need for the NAACP nor the Movement organizations based on the fact that we have been able to destroy the strong germ and force of racism. This has got to be done. HUNTLEY: Are you suggesting that that is at hand, the destruction of racism in this country? DAVIS: I see it in my lifetime. I see America as it&#039 ; s going to surface. And, it is closer than you think. It&#039 ; s going to surface as Dr. King said, &quot ; look at a man, at his character rather than his race.&quot ; HUNTLEY: How then do you account for the ways in which White people versus Black people view the Rodney King situation, the 0. J. Simpson case and the Million Man March.And, most recently, of course the beating of the Mexican man and woman out in California? DAVIS: First thing. Human resources, (Inaudible), the country must understand and accept that. In the next place, we have problems that have to be solved by people. And, the solution to that problem is coming to a mind of a child or a person that was born in this world. Now, it becomes the responsibility of government to cultivate every once of human resources that we have available. None go wasted. The jails is not the solution to the problem. Now, I feel that the Million Man March, when all the dust has settled, they are going to have to look at it and say, &quot ; What is the problem?&quot ; And, then, look back and realize that AIDS, cancer, a lot of medical problems, diplomacy problems with China and other countries need to be solved, when you only have had sources from the White community dealing with these issues and you don&#039 ; t know who God is going to give the solutions to those problems . Giants like George Washington Carver, Booker Washington was giants that couldn&#039 ; t be stopped. Dr. Carver was a man locked into his world and God has given every man, every child born in this world, come in with a talent that needs to be activated. My interest was to sell to the public. &quot ; Let&#039 ; s rid ourselves of discrimination for salvation.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Let me just ask you about, in relation to the Million Man March, the media consistently talked about &quot ; separating the message from the messenger.&quot ; How did you interpret that? DAVIS: Well, first place, the truth is very difficult to accept. Most people have a way of trying to shun the effects of the truth. Minister Farakhan has the personality and knowledge to speak his guts. And, once he says that, if he&#039 ; s not saying the right thing, then, there is a lot of people who are going to be offensive. I feel that he can&#039 ; t change that. But here&#039 ; s the thing that turned the head, one time I was almost skepticable of those fellows that had skin heads and nice Black suits and what not and calling the White men &quot ; devils.&quot ; I was somewhat skeptical of that. But, here was a man that called for millions of Black men to come to Washington. And, by virtue of his call, and then the response exceeded what he requested, I knew God was working in that. It&#039 ; s not the matter of Minister Farakhan. God can use anybody he so desire. Minister Farakhan was a vessel in God&#039 ; s hand because no man in this country ever -- the only one that has come close to that was Marcus Garvey. And today, if America can&#039 ; t see the handwork of God in this movement, then we are totally lost. HUNTLEY: Thank you, Mr. Davis. DAVIS: Thank you very kindly. I certainly enjoyed the discussion and a lot more will need to be said. HUNTLEY: And we will take time to say them.Thank you very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RDavisII19960403.xml RDavisII19960403.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Reuben Davis, II (April 1996) Description An account of the resource Reuben Davis II discusses how his work with the labor movement lead to his political career. He served as one term as a Jefferson County Commissioner. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19960403D Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham. The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People Dunbar High School (Bessemer, Ala.) Jefferson County (Ala.). County Commission Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996-04-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/c0dc3e0da7e183d4deb68b600ce6921c.jpg 4398bc4e1493f6eb7a515ed105df597c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jessie Shepherd OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JShepherd1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Fair Park (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 March 16, 1995 Jessie Shepherd Interviewed on March 16, 1995 19950316S 0:27:30 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Raines Whittaker Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Fair Park (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Jessie Shepherd Horace Huntley Video 1:|5(6)|31(2)|52(11)|79(2)|106(2)|121(22)|138(17)|159(9)|179(2)|196(1)|216(1)|244(3)|258(4)|269(12)|289(5)|311(10)|329(14)|349(1)|372(8)|392(11)|404(10)|427(9)|440(6)|453(6)|468(15)|486(11)|519(4) 0 https://youtu.be/0mZ_oObTsYg YouTube video English 45 Beginning of Interview This is an interview with Ms. Jessie Shepherd for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute http://www.bcri.org BCRI website 67 Family Background I just want to start by just asking some basic foundation questions about your parents. Shepherd was born and raised in Birmingham in a large, working-class family. African American families ; Birmingham (Ala.) 163 Education What about your education? Shepherd attended elementary and high school in Birmingham. Calloway Elementary ; Carver High School ; Hudson Elementary Birmingham (Ala.) 198 Community Composition How would you describe the community that you lived in when you were in high school? Shepherd grew up in an all-Black community with little access to parks or recreation. Parks and Recreation African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.) 316 Police-Community Relations Tell me about the relationship, if you remember, what was the relationship between your community and the Birmingham Police Department? In Shepherd's community, most interactions with the police were based around harassment. African American neighborhoods ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Police-community relations 366 Civil Rights Involvement in High School The Civil Rights Movement of course, when we talk about civil rights in Birmingham... At 15 years old, Shepherd became involved in the civil rights movement. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; High school students--Political activity 515 Reactions to Involvement in the Movement What did your parents say about that? Shepherd received passive support from her parents and teachers after becoming involved in the civil rights movement, which she joined after recognizing racial injustice around her. African Americans--Segregation ; High school students--Political activity 760 The Children's Crusade Let me ask you the day that you were encouraged by those individuals from the Alabama Christian Movement and SCLC... The high school students met at the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church to get organized for marches. Children's March ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 863 Attacked by Police/Firefighters with Water Hoses What did you see when you first came out of the church? Shortly after starting a march, Shepherd and others were attacked by police and firefighters with water hoses. Kelly Ingram Park Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Police brutality 995 Arrest and Imprisonment Then were you arrested? Shepherd was arrested and held for four days at the Birmingham fairgrounds. Fair Park (Birmingham, Ala.) Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Civil rights movement ; High school students--Political activity 1100 Feelings about the Arrest from Family Did others in your family participate? Following Shepherd's arrest, her family was distressed but remained supportive. Family Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama 1156 Church Membership What church were you a member of at the time? Shepherd remained a member of the church despite their lack of civil rights involvement. Christian Valley Church African American churches ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1187 Views on Successes of the Civil Rights Movement What do you think were the benefits of you being involved in the Movement? Shepherd perceives the movement to have been successful in improving opportunities for equality. Civil rights movement ; Race relations--Economic aspects ; Racism--United States 1278 Continuation of Education What did you do after you finished high school? After high school, Shepherd received her GED, attended college, and became a clinical diet technician in nutrition. Nutrition Continuing education ; GED tests 1342 Continued Police Harassment Are there any other incidents that we have not talked about that come to mind that would relate to your involvement with the Movement? Shepherd recalls an incident in the 1970s of police harassment similar to those during the Movement. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement ; Police-community relations 1403 Reflections on the Movement Where do you think we are today in regards to the Movement? Shepherd continues to see the importance of activism today and supports involvement therein. African Americans--Civil rights ; Civil rights in a new era ; Racism--United States--Psychological aspects 1557 Emotional Weight of Memory You have not visited the Institute? Shepherd has been reluctant to revisit aspects of the civil rights movement. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil rights movement ; Racism--United States--Psychological aspects 1601 Conclusion of Interview I want to thank you for the time that we've spent today because you've been very helpful in helping us to piece together this story of Birmingham. Interview concludes. Oral History Jessie Shepherd discusses participating in the Children's Crusade and being arrested at the demonstration. She went on to become a dietitian after going to school at Lawson State and UAB. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Jessie Shepherd for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College. Today is March 16, 1995. Ms. Shepherd, thank you for coming and taking time out of your schedule today to sit and talk with us about Birmingham and the Civil Rights Movement. SHEPHERD: You&#039 ; re welcome. I&#039 ; m glad to be here. HUNTLEY: I just want to start by just asking some basic foundation questions about your parents. Where are your parents from? What part of the state? Were they born here in Birmingham? SHEPHERD: No. My mother was born in Sumter County and my father was born in Macon County. But later on in life they moved to Birmingham, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Birmingham? SHEPHERD: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? SHEPHERD: It was nine of us. Three boys and six girls. HUNTLEY: How many of those were older and how many were younger than you? SHEPHERD: I have two younger sisters and one younger brother, and the rest are older than I am. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your parents&#039 ; education. How much education did both of them have? SHEPHERD: Well, not very much. My mother went to the fifth grade because she mostly said they had to work in the field at that particular time. And, my father, I think she said he went to about the third or fourth grade. HUNTLEY: Yes, in the black belt counties that was probably about the norm for Black people during those times. SHEPHERD: Yes. HUNTLEY: What about occupations? What kind of work did your mother and your father do? SHEPHERD: Well, my mother always did domestic work and my father, he did laboring work and he was a welder at the surrounding plants here in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: What about your education? Where did you go to elementary and high school and on from there? SHEPHERD: I went to Hudson Elementary school and after about the third or fourth grade they built Calloway Elementary school and I graduated from that school. Afterwards I went to Carver High School in North Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Who was the principal when you were there? SHEPHERD: Mr. Lowe. HUNTLEY: Mr. J. L. Lowe. What community was that? SHEPHERD: North Birmingham, Collegeville. HUNTLEY: How would you describe the community that you lived in when you were in high school? For example, the racial make-up, the occupations of people there, the recreation, how would you describe it? SHEPHERD: Well, lower to middle class. And, as far as the racial make-up, we didn&#039 ; t have any, unless it was the White man at the corner store, everybody was predominantly Black. HUNTLEY: It was an all-Black community? SHEPHERD: Right. HUNTLEY: Were there any areas near you where White people actually lived or did they live further back in Norwood? SHEPHERD: Norwood and the better section of North Birmingham was the White people area at that particular time. HUNTLEY: So, there were no White families living, say on the next street from you? SHEPHERD: No. No. We lived close around to U.S. Pipe, the plants with all the smoke and the soot and stuff, so they were a little further away from all of that. HUNTLEY: Yes. What kind of recreation did you have in your community? SHEPHERD: Not any at all. We played in the yard, hopscotch. We did our lesson. We really didn&#039 ; t have any place to go. Church was a very important part of our lives. We had things that we would do at church like choir rehearsal, play games or they would have Easter celebration for the kids. But other than that, we played with each other. HUNTLEY: So, most of your recreational activities then were either in the church or at school? SHEPHERD: Yes. HUNTLEY: What about parks? SHEPHERD: Parks? HUNTLEY: Did you have any parks? SHEPHERD: Parks were almost non-existent. We had like Macklin Park that was in Collegeville. We did have that one particular park that was available to us. And, I remember as a little girl, they had a park down by the city jail, but we didn&#039 ; t have transportation. There wasn&#039 ; t a car in our family. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the relationship, if you remember, what was the relationship between your community and the Birmingham Police Department? SHEPHERD: Well, the police department wasn&#039 ; t very active in our community. You would see the cars go by and if there was some young men on the corner they may slow down and talk with them and find out what they were up to. But, as far as my relationship with them, I didn&#039 ; t really have any. HUNTLEY: There was really no ongoing relationship with the community? Did you look at the police as being there in the community to protect and serve that community? SHEPHERD: In a way I did and in a way I looked at it as a way of keeping us in line. HUNTLEY: The Civil Rights Movement of course, when we talk about civil rights in Birmingham, we normally start with the Alabama Christian Movement of Human Rights in 1956 with the development of the various meeting formats that they had at the various churches. I know at that time you were a very young child so you would have probably known nothing about that. But when did you get involved in the movement itself? SHEPHERD: I was 15 and I was still in high school and that&#039 ; s when I got involved, when it came to my school. HUNTLEY: At Carver? SHEPHERD: Carver High School. HUNTLEY: And how did that happen that you would get involved at that point? What took place to get you involved? Had you been to any mass meetings before you got involved? SHEPHERD: No. I had not. The only experience I had was the day that they came to my school and there were different leaders that were talking, and they were telling us what they had planned to do for us, marching and what have you. And, we listened to the speakers and just from listening to them, I decided that I would march. HUNTLEY: Were they in an assembly in the school? SHEPHERD: No. Definitely not. They were across the street from the school grounds because they weren&#039 ; t allowed on the premises. And, we were told not to go off the premises. HUNTLEY: So how did you get the opportunity to hear them speak if you were not allowed to go off the premises? SHEPHERD: Because they were across the street from the school and we went to the edge of the school ground and we listened. And, after their delivery, well, it motivated me to just go with them. HUNTLEY: How many kids did it motivate to participate at that point? SHEPHERD: It was quite a few. I don&#039 ; t remember exactly how many but it was quite a few. HUNTLEY: Now, this is in May of 1963 during the demonstrations, right? SHEPHERD: Right. HUNTLEY: At that point, the Movement was really sort of at a lull because it didn&#039 ; t have a lot of people that were staunchly involved. You had a lot of people that were involved, but many of those were older people and they were fearful of their jobs and their homes. So, the idea was to get children involved. What did your parents say about that? SHEPHERD: Well, like you say it was something that was already talked about so my parents were aware that they were going to try and recruit the younger children to march and they had told me beforehand not to get involved. And, I did anyway. HUNTLEY: Well, was that a difficult decision for you to make, to go against what your parents were saying to you? SHEPHERD: It was, because usually I obeyed them. But like I said, after listening to the speeches that the leaders were making and after soul searching and thinking about my experiences and the experiences of my parents and other people in the neighborhood, I just decided that now it&#039 ; s time for a change and I wanted to be involved in it. HUNTLEY: What did they say to encourage you to get involved? SHEPHERD: Well, they were telling us about the things that had been going on all along. You weren&#039 ; t allowed to sit here, you weren&#039 ; t allowed to eat here, we need better jobs, we need to be treated better, and now is the time to do it. And, things like that. And all of the things that they were talking about I knew to be for a fact because I had seen some of these things happening and I&#039 ; ve seen people that are not making enough money, not being able to go here. Take for instance, my mother and my grandmother, they always did domestic work and some of the same people that they work for may have had the cafeteria and they could feed the other people, but when they would get tired, they could not go up front and sit down and eat a sandwich. They had to stand up in the back and eat. And, if they wanted water, go out back and get some water. You know, all those things to me were oppressive to Black people and I was old enough to know about them. HUNTLEY: So, you thought it was time for a change? SHEPHERD: I did. HUNTLEY: Well, why didn&#039 ; t you say &quot ; Well, let someone else do that, I would stay in school and get my education&quot ; , rather than being out on the front line? Why didn&#039 ; t you take that position? SHEPHERD: Well, at the time I&#039 ; ll admit I was afraid. I was very scared. But, I was also thinking about if everybody said that, they wouldn&#039 ; t have enough people to follow them. So, I was just willing to take the consequences. HUNTLEY: What did your teachers say before you got involved? Did they instruct you not to get involved or to get involved? Or, were they simply neutral? SHEPHERD: No. We had assembly in school, and, like my parents, they knew what was going on also, so they warned us beforehand not to become involved because if we did we would be expelled. HUNTLEY: So, they did not encourage you to get involved? SHEPHERD: No. They did not. HUNTLEY: In fact, they suggested that you not get involved so that you would not be expelled from school? SHEPHERD: Right. HUNTLEY: Were there any teachers that encouraged you? SHEPHERD: No. HUNTLEY: So, most were in fact looking out for you in the sense that they didn&#039 ; t want you to get expelled from school? SHEPHERD: Exactly. And then I think that they probably thought that if we left off the school and they didn&#039 ; t try to tell us their version of what they thought we should do, that they may be held liable for us leaving the premises if something happened to us and we got hurt or whatever. HUNTLEY: I&#039 ; m going to skip a part of this and return to that, but I want to ask you what was the reception when you returned to school? I know that you spent time in jail, but what were the reactions of the other children in school and your teachers when you returned to school? SHEPHERD: Well, I think that we were treated a little bit differently. Kind of like, not, in a way where they would kind of put us down from going to jail, but like they were somewhat proud that we had participated in this. No one treated me badly. HUNTLEY: So, you were somewhat of a hero, a shero. Let me ask you the day that you were encouraged by those individuals from the Alabama Christian Movement and SCLC you then left school and you went to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. Can you describe what happened at Sixteenth Street inside? SHEPHERD: At Sixteenth Street on the inside we had some of the same leaders that were at my school, also some other ones. And, they would talk, and they would tell us what to expect. They would tell us the route that we were going to take in the march and what to expect when the police and just stay together. We sung songs. As a matter of fact, some of the songs that we sung we sung those songs because a lot of people didn&#039 ; t know the songs or whatever, so we sung those for a while. And, when we got out on the street, we knew the songs. HUNTLEY: And you eventually then would leave the church in mass, I assume, because there are some that say that a hundred would leave at a time and march down the steps at Sixteenth Street, sort of describe that to me. The leaving of Sixteenth Street and coming onto the street to participate in the march. SHEPHERD: Well, it was like, to me it was like everybody trying to get in the lunchroom at one time. It was just mass students. Grown-ups too, but it was just a crowd. And, we all, like you say, left the church and it was just, as far as you could see, all the way across the road and to the front and to the back, it was just a lot of people, mostly students. HUNTLEY: What did you see when you first came out of the church? SHEPHERD: When I came out of the church to my recollection it was like policemen. You know policemen were near the church also, and spectators, you know, people that were involved and people were just there to be curious to see what was going to happen. The news people were there. HUNTLEY: Were there any firemen? SHEPHERD: Yes, of course, there were firemen there, because they had the hose that put the water on us, dogs. HUNTLEY: Were there police dogs there? SHEPHERD: Yes. There were police dogs. HUNTLEY: How far from the church did you get before the water was turned on you or the dogs, or did that happen? SHEPHERD: Yes, it did happen to me. But, I think it was like maybe within blocks because we went to the heart of downtown and it was a little distance from the church. HUNTLEY: Was it in the park, Kelly Ingram Park or after you passed through the park? SHEPHERD: No. It was on the regular street. It wasn&#039 ; t in the park. HUNTLEY: So, then you made it maybe a block? SHEPHERD: Maybe a block or two or what have you. HUNTLEY: Do you remember orders being given? SHEPHERD: Yes. To go back and not to go into certain stores and in certain parts of the street. As I remember they was all standing, they were really going to block us from making an entrance to certain streets. And, after we did not stop, that&#039 ; s when they turned the hose on and I remember rolling around on the ground because the water was so strong and when I got up, I was glad the water was turned off. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the water? Was it just wet or did it sting? SHEPHERD: Wet and strong. The water pressure was so strong until it would actually roll you around on the pavement. It was just that strong. They didn&#039 ; t care. HUNTLEY: Then were you arrested? SHEPHERD: Yes. HUNTLEY: What happened? How did that arrest take place? SHEPHERD: Well, the policemen came in what we would call the paddy wagons and they loaded us up, as many as they could in those wagons. And we were taken to juvenile court and processed, name and all of that. Then we were locked up and later on, during the same day, when they got as many, I guess as they wanted to, we were all taken to the Birmingham fairgrounds and that&#039 ; s where I stayed for four days. HUNTLEY: How were you taken from the city to the fairgrounds? SHEPHERD: In the paddy wagons, also. HUNTLEY: And you say you remained at the fairgrounds for four days? SHEPHERD: Four days. HUNTLEY: Sort of describe to me what you remember about that period. SHEPHERD: Well, I remember being very scared and we all cried a lot because we wanted to go home. I did. We wanted to go home. And we were told that we could not go home, that we would have to stay there until the Movement got us out or got the funds to get us out or whatever. And the first day wasn&#039 ; t too bad, but as the days progressed, it got worse and worse because I didn&#039 ; t like the food and we played games. I knew at that point that my mother was worried about me. I really started thinking about that a lot. So, we mostly like played games, cried, laid around. There wasn&#039 ; t anything really to do but hope that they would soon get us out. HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate? SHEPHERD: No. HUNTLEY: You were the only one that participated? SHEPHERD: I was the only one. HUNTLEY: What did they feel about your participation? SHEPHERD: Later on, we talked about it and they were glad that I did it. But, they was all crying. My mother told me that my grandmother would cry every day. She would cry and my sisters and brothers they would cry because they were afraid of what they were going to do to me. HUNTLEY: You were suspended from school? SHEPHERD: Yes. For four days when I was in jail. When I got out of school, my mother had to take me back to school. HUNTLEY: She took you back to school, were there any other kinds of repercussions as a result of your being involved? SHEPHERD: No. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of at the time? SHEPHERD: We went to Christian Valley in north Birmingham and sometimes we would go to Wilson Chapel Church because mostly my uncle had a church and we would have to go to his church a lot. So, a lot of times I visited those other churches because my friends went there. HUNTLEY: Were either of those churches involved in the Movement? Or the pastor of those churches involved in the Movement that you know of and can remember? SHEPHERD: I don&#039 ; t think so. HUNTLEY: What do you think were the benefits of you being involved in the Movement? What were the benefits to your family and the community as a result of that involvement? SHEPHERD: Well, I think there were a lot of benefits. Things changed in the community as well as downtown. For one thing it kind of motivated people to be their own person. Not necessarily be negative to Whites after then, but to stand up for themselves and say this is not right, or I feel that there&#039 ; s two sides to everything. And I think that later on it made us be able to have better jobs, better schools and pursue a lot of jobs that normally we would not have done because of that. Also, we were able to spend our money wherever we wanted to spend our money and be able to be treated like we were as good as anybody else. And I really felt like it made a big impact when I could still go to north Birmingham and no longer had to see the sign that &quot ; colored&quot ; in back and &quot ; white&quot ; folk only those kinds of things. HUNTLEY: So, would you suggest that the Movement was successful? SHEPHERD: I think so. HUNTLEY: And that its success is based upon the changes that you see has taken place over time? SHEPHERD: Yes. HUNTLEY: What did you do after you finished high school? I see you&#039 ; ve gone to Lawson State and a number of other places and you are now a dietician? SHEPHERD: A clinical diet technician in nutrition. HUNTLEY: So, do you think that the Movement had an impact upon what you would eventually do as a career? SHEPHERD: Well, I think that it had an impact on me going on. When I left school in the 11th grade, I went to Jeff State so I could get my GED. So, I think it made me continue my education, not just say, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m finished.&quot ; And, so I went on to Jeff State and got the GED and then after that I decided that I would get into nutrition, so I went to Lawson and after Lawson to the Linkage Program at UAB. HUNTLEY: Lawson has one of the best programs in the state in that regard, that many people are not that much aware of. Are there any other incidents that we have not talked about that come to mind that would relate to your involvement with the Movement? SHEPHERD: Oh yes, definitely so. I remember, like I said, we always lived around the northern side, Norwood, north Birmingham and at some point in the early 70s I moved to Kingston. And during the early part of the 70s when Benita Carter was killed I lived in that area and it kind of like brought it all back to me about the marching during that time because the policemen were down in the neighborhood again. They were like &quot ; get in the house.&quot ; &quot ; Get off the streets.&quot ; You know, &quot ; turn your lights out.&quot ; And, we had no choice. We had to do this. Just go in the house and stay. And, to me, it kind of reflected all back to me that this similar to what happened then. HUNTLEY: Where do you think we are today in regards to the Movement? SHEPHERD: I think they&#039 ; ve done wonderful things and I think they have come a long ways as far as equality and stuff like that and as far as people&#039 ; s civil rights and everything. I think that now they have a limit. You cannot mistreat people because of their race or color. Everybody is equal. And if there is not an equal opportunity, now we have the access and places to go. We have the courts. Even on your job now, these things that took place at that particular time, they may be somewhat prejudiced, but if you feel that you&#039 ; re being mistreated or things are not equally done, then you do have a voice now. Whereas, back then, you did not. This was just the way it was. HUNTLEY: If there was a call now for a demonstration or a march for some issue that may come to fore, would you participate today? SHEPHERD: Yes, I would. I have no regrets. HUNTLEY: If you had children of the age that you were during the time that you took part and had to go against the same kind of entities such as the police or whatever, that was at that particular time, would you allow your children to be involved? SHEPHERD: I would let them make up their own mind, but I would not say don&#039 ; t do it. I feel like that if they felt like they wanted to make a difference, it would be left up to them and I would support them. HUNTLEY: So, you believe that there is a need for a certain amount of activism even today in relationship to the struggle? SHEPHERD: Yes. We should never forget what we went through. Even though we have come a long way, there is always reason that things could change and go back if we get dormant and just stand still. So like today when they sing songs during Martin Luther King&#039 ; s birthday and remembering his death and all, like we sing songs like &quot ; We shall overcome,&quot ; and things like that, I&#039 ; m usually crying. A lot of people just sing those songs but to me they have meaning. They really do. And that&#039 ; s one of the reasons why, after today I will go. That&#039 ; s one of the reasons I have not visited the Institute because I always felt like it would be real painful to. HUNTLEY: You have not visited the Institute? SHEPHERD: I have not been there yet, in the two years. And sometimes I say I&#039 ; m going. HUNTLEY: Why have you thought that you should not visit at this point? SHEPHERD: Well, I don&#039 ; t feel that I shouldn&#039 ; t. I feel that I should go, but it&#039 ; s just that every time I think about going and things that I may see, it kind of depresses me. HUNTLEY: It&#039 ; s too emotional for you at this point? SHEPHERD: Yes. HUNTLEY: Well, we hope that you will come and if you do, I&#039 ; m sure you will see a lot that will remind you of those days, but I think it would be part of that healing process. SHEPHERD: I think so. HUNTLEY: So, you have an open invitation. SHEPHERD: Okay. HUNTLEY: So please come. SHEPHERD: I&#039 ; m going to come now. HUNTLEY: All right. I want to thank you for the time that we&#039 ; ve spent today because you&#039 ; ve been very helpful in helping us to piece together this story of Birmingham. As I said, many people have many stories to tell and I&#039 ; m sure you probably have a few more that you&#039 ; ll think of later on. SHEPHERD: Right. HUNTLEY: But, maybe we&#039 ; ll do this again sometime. SHEPHERD: I&#039 ; ll be glad to. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much for coming out. SHEPHERD: You&#039 ; re welcome. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JShepherd1995.xml JShepherd1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jessie Shepherd Description An account of the resource Jessie Shepherd discusses participating in the Children's Crusade and being arrested at the demonstration. She went on to become a dietitian after going to school at Lawson State and UAB. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950316S Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-03-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/000cf85eb31a11bf36a3f4217148c236.png 8aea1523f96a1e424faa21af66fc82ca Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Annetta Streeter Gary OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ASGary1998.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Children's Crusade OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 June 4, 1998 Annetta Streeter Gary 19980604G 0:57:47 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Ullman High School (Birmngham, Ala.) King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Children's Crusade Annetta Streeter Gary Horace Huntley Video 1:|18(9)|47(15)|70(3)|86(9)|106(6)|119(6)|149(5)|160(5)|176(14)|186(2)|197(2)|207(9)|218(11)|230(12)|245(13)|255(11)|270(2)|285(9)|307(9)|321(2)|334(2)|351(7)|367(3)|385(14)|392(2)|407(6)|421(12)|430(4)|453(7)|472(6)|488(12)|511(2)|542(9)|565(7)|581(15)|594(6)|609(3)|622(3)|649(3)|667(6)|680(10)|694(1)|721(4)|739(16)|763(3)|778(10)|800(3)|803(1)|817(2)|827(7)|839(5)|848(2)|860(15)|871(12)|878(12)|887(13)|903(4) 0 https://youtu.be/0WAZUj6uN8k YouTube video English 10 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Annetta Streeter Gary for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute’s Oral History Project. I’m Dr. Horace Huntley. We’re presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is June 4, 1998. Mrs. Gary, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit and talk with me about the movement and really Birmingham today. Welcome to the Institute. 33.5161, -86.8145 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 48 Family Background Let me just ask you. Were you born in Birmingham? Annetta Streeter Gary discusses her family background and their educational experience. Barber ; Director Miles College ; Titusville (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Tuskegee Institute ; West End (Birmingham, Ala.) ; YWCA Birmingham 135 Early Education- St. Mary's and Washington Elementary Oh, yeah, ok. Tell me do you remember your first grade teacher? Annetta Streeter Gary talks about going to school at St.Mary's then later transferring over to Washington Elementary because of being able to go to school with the kids in the neighborhood. Elyton Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Miles College ; Powderly (Birmingham, Ala.) ; St. Mary's Catholic School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Titusville (Birmingham, Ala.) ; University of Alabama in Birmingham (UAB) ; Washington Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) 507 Early Education- Ullman High School Annetta Streeter Gary talks about going to Ullman High School and how one teacher had a huge impact on her. Youth--Jail--Perspective African Americans--Civil rights ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 626 Community Background Let me just ask you about the neighborhood and growing up in Titusville. What kind of community was it? Annetta Streeter Gary discusses the make up of her community and also being mistaken for white because of the lightness of her complexion. African American--Community--Middle-class African Americans--Civil rights ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; The Alabama Theater ; Titusville (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Ullman High School (Birmngham, Ala.) ; Washington Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) 1061 Joining The Movement How did you get involved with the movement? Annetta Streeter Gary talked about how she got involved in the movement through a group at her school called the Peace Ponies. 16th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Peace Ponies ; Social and Savings Club ; Titusville (Birmingha, Ala.) 1186 Attending the Mass Meetings How would you describe a mass meeting? Annetta Streeter Gary talks about how mesmerizing it was to hear Dr. King speak. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 1275 Participating in Training Sessions Now you went to the training sessions. What were training sessions like? Annetta Streeter Gary discusses how they were trained to not resist when it came to protesting. Arrested ; Job loss ; Mass meetings ; Non-violent protest Atlanta (Ga.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 1430 Demonstrating and Being Arrested Do you remember your first demonstration? Annetta Streeter Gary recalls her first demonstration marching in Birmingham. African Americans--Segregation ; Lunch Counter Birmingham City Jail (Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement--Marches ; Jefferson County (Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Loveman's ; Newberry's 1594 Spending Time in Jail So when you were arrested what do you remember about the arrest? Annetta Streeter Gary describes what it was like spending a couple of nights in the Jefferson County jail in Birimingham, Ala. African American youth ; Integration ; Racial profiling in law enforcement--United States D-Day--Civil Rights Movement 1963 ; Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.) 1952 Release From Jail Monday night. What were the circumstances of your release? Annetta Streeter Gary talks about being released from jail and going straight back into the mass meetings. African American youth ; Jail ; Mass Meetings Bethel Baptist Church--Collegeville (Birmingham, Ala.) ; D-Day--Civil Rights Movement 1963 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 2078 D-Day 1963 D-Day, did you go to school that morning? Annetta Streeter Gary Talks about participating on D-Day in 1963, and how they walked out of school to go march. African American Youth--Marching ; Fire Hoses ; Mass Meetings ; Water Hoses 16th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement--Demonstrations ; D-Day--Civil Rights Movement 1963 ; Kelly Ingram Park (Birmingham, Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Miles College ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 2682 Bombings at A.D. King's and A. G. Gaston's Do you remember the night that A. D. King’s home was bombed and A. G. Gaston’s Motel was bombed? Annetta Streeter Gary talks about where she was when A. G. Gaston Motel got bombed. Armed Guards A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 ; Western Street School (Birmingham, Ala.) 2812 Recalling the 16th Street Church Bombing That’s right. September 15, 1963, Sixteenth Street Baptist Church bombed. Where were you? Annetta Streeter Gary remembers the church bombings and attending 3 out of 4 of the girls' funerals. Catholic Church ; funerals 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; United States. Act to Award Posthumously a Congressional Gold Medal to Addie Mae Collins, Denise McNair, Carole Robertson, and Cynthia Wesley to Commemorate the Lives They Lost 50 Years Ago in the Bombing of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church, where These 4 Little Black Girls' Ultimate Sacrifice Served as a Catalyst for the Civil Rights Movement 2982 Attending Miles College and UAB Annetta Streeter Gary talks about going to Miles and UAB for teaching after high school. Birmingham City Board of Education ; MIles College ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; University of Alabama in Birmingham 3020 Teaching For Birmingham City Board of Education Where did you teach? What school? Annetta Streeter Gary talks about teaching at various schools around Birmingham, Alabama. School integration--United States Coleman Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Collegeville (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Hudson K-8 School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Patterson Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Titusville (Birmingham, Ala.) 3197 Changes in Birmingham Since the Movement How would you characterize Birmingham, the changes in Birmingham over time based upon what we’ve talked about today? Annetta Streeter Gary discusses how integration has changed Birmingham, but how people have lost touch with families and communities. Community ; Family ; School integration--United States Birmingham (Ala.) 3373 Integrating the Holiday Inn Yes, I would like to state that I was one of the very first, I was fortunate to be one of the first to integrate the Holiday Inn on 3rd Avenue. Also, this hot dog stand that was on the same street as Newberry’s, I can’t think of the name of it. Annetta Streeter Gary was the first to integrate the Holiday Inn and a hot dog stand in Birmingham, Alabama. Integration--Businesses Holiday Inn ; The Alabama Theater (Birmingham, Ala.) ; The Leary Theater (Birmingham, Ala.) ; The Melba Theater (Birmingham, Ala.) 3447 Conclusion of Interview Certainly appreciate it. Interview concludes. Oral History Annetta Streeter Gary discusses participating in the Children's March, being arrested and returning to school and mass meetings upon her release. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Annetta Streeter Gary for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I&#039 ; m Dr. Horace Huntley. We&#039 ; re presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is June 4, 1998. Mrs. Gary, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit and talk with me about the movement and really Birmingham today. Welcome to the Institute. GARY: Thank you. HUNTLEY: Let me just ask you. Were you born in Birmingham? GARY: Yes, I was born in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Were your parents born in Birmingham? GARY: Yes, my parents were born in Birmingham also. HUNTLEY: What part of town did you live in while you were growing up? GARY: The majority of my youth was spent in Titusville. HUNTLEY: In Titusville? GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? GARY: I have two sisters. I&#039 ; m the older of three. HUNTLEY: Now your mother and father, what about their education? How much education did they have? GARY: My mother was a graduate of Tuskegee Institute and my father completed two years at Miles College. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did they do? GARY: My mother was a youth director for the Y, for the Black YWCA. My father was a barber, self employed. HUNTLEY: Where was his barber shop? GARY: In West End on Long Boulevard. HUNTLEY: Oh, is that right? Where on Long Boulevard? GARY: 800 Long Boulevard, I think Taco Bell is right next to that area now. HUNTLEY: 800 Long? GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: Is that down near the hospital? GARY: Right, exactly, the parking lot sits right... HUNTLEY: Oh, yeah, ok. Tell me do you remember your first grade teacher? GARY: I went to Catholic School in the first grade. HUNTLEY: What school? GARY: St. Mary&#039 ; s in Fairfield. HUNTLEY: What kind of memories do you have of your elementary school years? GARY: Fourth grade I was allowed to transfer to public education. I went to Washington Elementary School where W. C. Madison was my principal. A very fine man. I have several teachers that I remember during that time. Ms. Towns, who was my eighth grade teache ; Ms. Baldwin, who was my 7th grade teacher ; Ms. Boones, my sixth grade teacher. Those are just some of the ones that come to mind. HUNTLEY: Do you remember any of the nuns that taught you in those first few years? GARY: Not by name, but I remember the experience. At that time Catholic Schools were very, very strict and at one time I thought I wanted to be a nun. HUNTLEY: Oh, is that right? GARY: Yes, because of the influence of the teachers. I knew at a very, very early age that I wanted to be a teacher. Then that kind of runs in my family also. I&#039 ; m from a family of educators. HUNTLEY: Right, right. Your mother was a graduate of Tuskegee. Did you go to Tuskegee? GARY: No, I was the first one in my family that chose to go somewhere else. HUNTLEY: Is that right? GARY: I&#039 ; m a graduate of Miles. I graduated from Miles in 1970, then I did further studies at UAB. I got my masters from UAB. HUNTLEY: Now, in those early days you went to Catholic School. What was the transition like from Catholic School to the public schools? GARY: One difference was I was used to White teachers. When I was in Catholic School none of my teachers were Black. All of them were White nuns. When I went to the public school it was completely different. HUNTLEY: All of them were Black? GARY: All of them were Black. HUNTLEY: What kind of difference did that make? GARY: Well, I was looking out the eyes of little people so... HUNTLEY: Oh, yes. I understand. GARY: So, it didn&#039 ; t make a lot of difference. HUNTLEY: What about the school itself? Was Washington a lot larger than St. Mary&#039 ; s? GARY: Yes, Washington was larger. Classrooms, even at that time the classrooms were larger... the number of children in the classroom. I remember when I first started at St. Mary&#039 ; s we were living in Powderly Hill and we rode the school bus. We made a move to Titusville and we had to walk across from Titusville to over to 3rd Avenue to catch the bus to go to St. Mary&#039 ; s . We would pass Elyton Elementary School. My father would always say, &quot ; One day Black children will be able to go to Washington.&quot ; HUNTLEY: You mean to Elyton? GARY: To Elyton. HUNTLEY: Because Elyton was an all White school. GARY: Right, right, but we didn&#039 ; t see that. HUNTLEY: You didn&#039 ; t see that, that would ever be a possibility that you would be able to go to Elyton schools. GARY: No. HUNTLEY: In walking from Titusville to 3rd Avenue, that was a pretty good distance. GARY: That was a long walk. HUNTLEY: Did your father walk with you everyday? GARY: Well, from the beginning they would, but from the beginning my mother or father would walk us across to 3rd Avenue, but then...there was two of us going, my sister also went. Finally, they let us do it alone. HUNTLEY: After you had become accustomed to that walk. GARY: Right. HUNTLEY: Now, at Washington School, being a larger school. Did that have any impact upon, again, you&#039 ; re viewing this from the eyes of a child. Were there any differences in the instruction or differences in the ways that you were treated? GARY: No, we were treated with love at Washington. We were like a family. I guess the same thing was true for St. Mary&#039 ; s. I do remember that, at St. Mary&#039 ; s, we had more equipment than we did at Washington. My instructions I don&#039 ; t feel were any less. HUNTLEY: Do you know why your parents decided to send you to Washington school? GARY: Because after we moved to Titusville the majority of the kids in the neighborhood were going to Washington and, of course, we had a fit. We wanted to go to Washington. As you said it was a long walk across from Titusville across to 3rd Avenue. That was a good little walk. So, I think it was a number of reasons that we were allowed to transfer. HUNTLEY: Then after Washington where did you go? GARY: To Ullman High School. HUNTLEY: Ullman High School. GARY: George Bell was my principal. I have one teacher that really stands out in my mind. That&#039 ; s Ms. Odessa Woolfolk. She was my 11th grade American History teacher and my 12th grade World History teacher. We had...she was a little woman that made a big impact on my life. HUNTLEY: Why were you so impressed with Ms. Woolfolk? GARY: First of all she is a very, very intelligent woman. She was able to, I mean her classes were...she made them so life-like. Like you were there. She was just a good instructor. I remember that was during the civil rights movement. A lot of teachers, after they found out that I had gone to jail, they did not look to highly on that. Ms. Woolfolk made a big to do about it. She made me feel like a hero. It was just her demeanor. The way she treated us, it was like we were a part of her. I know a lot of things she could not say and not do because her job was at stake. She would just casually turn her head and pretend she didn&#039 ; t know what was going on. HUNTLEY: Let me just ask you about the neighborhood and growing up in Titusville. What kind of community was it? GARY: Ok, Titusville was a middle-class community for Blacks. We had teachers, doctors. It was a good community for Blacks at that time. HUNTLEY: What part of Titusville did you live? GARY: I lived right off of Goldwire. HUNTLEY: Birmingham in the 50s, 60s was termed the most segregated city in the country. What was it like growing up in Birmingham at that time? GARY: In the 50s I can often remember going to movies with my father on Sundays. No one would be on the bus but us but, yet, we had to go to the back of the bus. We were very inquisitive girls and we wanted to know why. I never will forget...I guess I had to have been about 11 or 12 years old, maybe not quite that old. We got up on the bus on 6th Avenue, on downtown, to the movie. My daddy decided that we weren&#039 ; t going to sit on the back of the bus that day. He got us and he sat us up in the front. He sat there with us. The bus driver pulled over right there where Annie P&#039 ; s Store used to be. He pulled over and he told my father that either he was going to move back or he was going to call the police. I remember there were several older women on the bus and they told my daddy that you don&#039 ; t do anything like that when you have children with you. HUNTLEY: Like when... GARY: Right. They kind of chastised him because we were crying. We were kind of upset. All we knew was that the bus driver was going to call the police on our daddy. It was very, very devastating to us. So he got us and he moved us back to the back of the bus. The bus driver went on. He never did call the police. My daddy often told us that we could have made history if ya&#039 ; ll wouldn&#039 ; t have cried. HUNTLEY: Yes. GARY: We were so young and we did not understand. It was a thing in our house where my mother and father always taught us that regardless of the color of our skin or our race, because you can look at the color of my skin and see that, unless you just knew that I was Black, you would not be able to tell. But they always taught us that we were as good as the next man. This was the way that we were taught. We were from a loving family. A family that did not think that race should have been an issue. HUNTLEY: Were both your mother and father light skinned? GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were there any problems as a result of you being so light skinned and living in a Black community? GARY: Right, right. You know especially with me being so involved in the civil rights movement it would really, really hurt my feelings when my good friends would get angry. As long as we were ok it was fine, but when they would get angry they would call me half White or something like that. It really, really bothered me as a child. Like I said we had parents that were able to sit me down and explain that we don&#039 ; t control our color. That&#039 ; s just like the White man holding us down because we are Black. We are not in control of our color. Like I said, my mother and my father were both light skinned. My genes, I had no choice but to be light complected. Yes it was always as a child and even now I have people to question me about my race. HUNTLEY: I know that there were people that were lighter skinned that actually went to the Alabama Theater. One of the things that I always wanted to do. I wanted to go to the Alabama, but never could, but I had friends who would pass and they actually went to the Alabama Theater. Did you ever do anything such as that? GARY: No, I mean that was something that was just, I was just [inaudible] about. I wanted...I was Black and it was no doubt about it in my mind. Regardless of what others said, you know. No, never had any desires to pass. I have not ever had problems with my heritage. HUNTLEY: You never thought about using that to your advantage just to get back at White folk by going into something that you know, as a Black person, you never would have been able to, but because they would not know it you never thought about doing that? GARY: No. Ironically, I was one of the first to go to the Alabama Theater after the civil rights laws were passed. HUNTLEY: Ullman was a real institution and there was always this big rivalry between Ullman and Parker. Why did you decide to go to Ullman rather than go to Parker? I know that there were some that lived in Titusville that did go to Parker. GARY: I guess, maybe, because I went to Washington. The majority of my classmates went to Ullman. I had enrolled for Parker and at the last moment decided I was going to go to Ullman. I have no regrets. HUNTLEY: How did you get involved with the movement? GARY: I was in a Social and Savings Club at the time. Charmettes, no, I&#039 ; m sorry, that wasn&#039 ; t the club that I was in, the Peace Ponies. HUNTLEY: The Peace Ponies? GARY: The Peace Ponies, not because of the movement, that was just the name of our little club. HUNTLEY: Do you remember why you named it the Peace Ponies? GARY: No I don&#039 ; t. I don&#039 ; t remember how we came up with that name., I do remember there were eight of us. HUNTLEY: Girls and boys? GARY: Just girls. We were 10th and 11th graders. They were all from Titusville. All of us grew up right around. HUNTLEY: Like a social and savings club. GARY: Yes. The first time...the way we got involved we came to a couple rallies over at Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: The group? GARY: The group, the club. Then we got so that we were following the movement around. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to go the first time that you went? How did that happen? GARY: I really don&#039 ; t remember exactly why we went to that first meeting. I know after we went to that first meeting we decided that this was something that we were going to do as a project, our club. We would go to the meetings, to the rallies, on Saturdays they would have training. We would come to the training. HUNTLEY: So, you went to the mass meetings regularly? GARY: Right. HUNTLEY: How would you describe a mass meeting? GARY: I remember the first time I heard Dr. King speak. It was as if he was hypnotizing you. I would look around and the people in the audience and even as young teenagers, my other friends and I we would just be...when we would leave out of the meeting, you know it was just like we needed to do something right then. We were sitting back and we could hardly wait until they started the demonstrations. Like I said, we were going to the training. Tell you another adult that would pick us up and take us. She was a friend of my mother, Lucinda B. Roberson. Ms. Roberson would take us down, on Saturdays, to the meetings if we didn&#039 ; t have a way. HUNTLEY: So, this then simple became a part of you. GARY: A part. HUNTLEY: You look forward to doing it and it appears that if that had been ended prematurely you would have missed that part of your life. GARY: Right. HUNTLEY: Now you went to the training sessions. What were training sessions like? GARY: They were...I remember Jose, I can&#039 ; t think of his name. HUNTLEY: From Atlanta? GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: I have a friend named Jose Nixon, but I know who you&#039 ; re talking about. I&#039 ; ll think about it. GARY: Ok. Well, he was one of the ones that was training us. What we would do, they would talk to us about non-violence. How, regardless of what someone did to you then, you were to just resist them. HUNTLEY: You were to resist them or you were not to resist them? GARY: You were not to resist them. They also showed us how...we made signs. They talked to us about what we were to say when we were arrested, if we were arrested. At that time a lot of parents lost their jobs because children were participating. HUNTLEY: Did you know anybody personally that lost their job? GARY: No, I didn&#039 ; t know anybody personally, but I was told that. HUNTLEY: In the meetings, the mass meeting? GARY: Right, in the mass meetings they would have different ones, that had already been arrested, come up and tell their stories and tell what had happened to them. HUNTLEY: You said you were really impressed by Dr. King. GARY: Really impressed by Dr. King. HUNTLEY: Did you see him more than once? GARY: More than once, I cannot count the number of times that I&#039 ; ve seen Dr. King. I tell my children that at school a lot of times people who were not involved in the movement, you know after everything was over with then, of course, Dr. King became a hero to them. But he was a hero to me even before this. It was just something about him. I knew that he was God sent. That meant a whole lot. HUNTLEY: Do you remember your first demonstration? GARY: Yes. Well, the first demonstration I was involved in, I was not arrested. It was on...it was during a time when Dr. King was in the county jail. We went, there wasn&#039 ; t very many of us, we went down along with some preachers. I guess it was a group about 25- 30, somewhere in there, it wasn&#039 ; t a very large group. We went down and we kneeled on the steps and the preachers prayed and we sung. I never will forget that the fire chief came up, but for whatever reason they did not do anything. They just stood by the side. They did not do anything on that particular day. It was on a Sunday. They didn&#039 ; t do anything. After we prayed we disbanded. I think it was maybe the next Saturday that I was arrested for the first time. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances of your arrest? GARY: We marched down, we left Sixteenth Street, no, no, let me take that back. We were dropped on 3rd Avenue right there by Loveman&#039 ; s and we marched from that corner up to the alley that was in between Loveman&#039 ; s and Newberry&#039 ; s. That is where we were picked up. We were taken to Jefferson County. HUNTLEY: Did you have signs? GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: What were the signs saying? GARY: Freedom Today, Tomorrow. HUNTLEY: Had you all planned to march? Or were you just going into Newberry&#039 ; s? GARY: What we were trying to do was to keep people from going in. We were marching because that was after they refused to let Blacks eat at the lunch counter in Newberry&#039 ; s. What we were doing was picketing so that Blacks would not go into Newberry&#039 ; s. HUNTLEY: So when you were arrested what do you remember about the arrest? GARY: I remember when we were taken to the county jail. We were fingerprinted ; they took our pictures, then they began to question us. They asked our name. Well, let me go back a step. The first thing that was asked of me when I got up there, the matron, the police matron or whatever she was called, looked at me and said, &quot ; What are you doing in here?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I want my freedom.&quot ; She just laughed, that was so funny to her. When I said I was Black she called several other people in to see me. At that time I was a little girl with long pigtails, you know. She just had no idea that I was Black. What they did, they separated us. They took the ones with my complexion, I guess almost down to your complexion. They put us in a separate group from the rest of them. They put us in a day room that had no facilities for sleeping or anything like that. It just had a big iron table and iron benches. They said that&#039 ; s where the prisoners would come during the day. They put the others back in the cells. HUNTLEY: So, they separated you by color? GARY: By color. HUNTLEY: So, the darker ones they put in cells, is that right? GARY: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s interesting. Every time I interview somebody I find out something a little bit different. I&#039 ; ve never heard that before. GARY: Yes, they did. This was at Jefferson County jail. Not many children went to Jefferson County. This was before D-Day, before May 3rd. It was in the later part of April, maybe about the middle of April. HUNTLEY: How long did you remain in jail? GARY: I was arrested on Saturday morning and I stayed until Monday night. HUNTLEY: What was it like? GARY: It was an experience that just can&#039 ; t be...you know, I remember the closing of the doors. Those doors closing. I really thought, my mother and father told me that I was too young and all of this. I think they were more worried about us getting hurt. HUNTLEY: Your safety. GARY: Right. Like I said earlier my father definitely believed in integration. It was just he didn&#039 ; t want to see us hurt. I kind of thought at the time that maybe they were right. HUNTLEY: While you were there? GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, you had second thoughts about it? GARY: I had second thoughts. We had one matron that came on in the evening shift that was not so bad as those other jailers or whatever they were called. HUNTLEY: Now, were they Black or White? GARY: They were White. HUNTLEY: And they were tough? GARY: They were tough. The food, could not eat the food, period. There was no way to eat the food. They had us scrubbing, gave us rags to scrub along the front of the cells. If you were too loud or whatever, you were given extra duties, extra things to do. HUNTLEY: Now how many people were in the day room with you? Was there a large... GARY: It was a large day room. It wasn&#039 ; t but about...the eight of us, my club members also. HUNTLEY: All of you were together? GARY: All of us yes. All of us went. HUNTLEY: So, all of you were light skinned? GARY: No, all of us were not in the dayroom. HUNTLEY: Oh, ok. GARY: The eight of us, when I was trying to figure out how many children were locked up that day. I guess it might have been about 20 of us. Eight of them were my club members and myself. No, I take that back there were seven of us because we had one that didn&#039 ; t go the first time. In the day room I guess there might have been about eight of us. HUNTLEY: Were there beds in there? GARY: No. HUNTLEY: No beds. GARY: There was just a table. HUNTLEY: Where did you sleep? GARY: What happened was that at night when the night matron came on--remember that I said she was nicer to us. She allowed us to bunk up with the ones that were in the back. So, what we did was kind of double up so that everybody could have somewhere to sleep. HUNTLEY: You were there until Monday? GARY: Monday night. HUNTLEY: Monday night. What were the circumstances of your release? GARY: They came up, the civil rights movement had gotten people to put their houses up. They came up and called our name. I had on a new sweater. I ran off and left that sweater. HUNTLEY: Never looked back. GARY: Never looked back. HUNTLEY: It sounds like you were glad to hear your name called. GARY: I was glad to hear my name called. HUNTLEY: Did they take you home after you were released? Or did you go back to the movement to a meeting? GARY: We went, I think we went to a meeting the next night because it was so late that night we went home. Then we reported to the meeting and this time we went to Bethel Baptist Church over in Collegeville, Fred Shuttlesworth&#039 ; s church. We gave an account of what had happened to us at that time. HUNTLEY: In the meantime now, you went to school Monday morning. No, you didn&#039 ; t get out until Monday night. GARY: Right. HUNTLEY: So, you went to school Tuesday morning? GARY: Right. HUNTLEY: Now, what was that reception like? I know you mentioned that there were some teachers, like Odessa. What about the students? GARY: They were real interested about what had happened. You been to jail, you know. We were 15, 16 years old and it was impressive to them. We had several kids that were beginning to become involved in the movement. This was, like I said, before D-Day. Well, in my class it was not as many, because I was in an accelerated class and for what- ever reason the kids in that class did not participate like other students at Ullman High School. HUNTLEY: D-Day, did you go to school that morning? GARY: I went to school. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. How did that day start? GARY: Ok. HUNTLEY: Wait, before you tell me about the day. Tell me about the night before. GARY: The night before we had gone to the demonstrations and they had told us that they were going to come around to various schools and they encouraged us to go to school. Because a lot of kids were talking about just not going to school. That was not the effect that they wanted. They wanted you to go to school and then...so we could really help to turn the children out of school. I remember, as the day wore on, no one showed up. We&#039 ; re thinking, what&#039 ; s going on. It was like we... HUNTLEY: No one from the movement showed up? GARY: Right. Finally they got over to Ullman. I think it was about 1,000 and something children that came out of Ullman High School on that day. You know, when I think about it, I had never just really thought about that day until you asked that question. I can remember, now, the feeling, you know, it was just like it&#039 ; s here, it&#039 ; s about to happen, you know. And the joy of seeing all of these children coming out to participate in the movement. It&#039 ; s a feeling that you just can&#039 ; t describe. HUNTLEY: One of those feelings that you enjoyed it so much, that there&#039 ; s just not words to describe it. GARY: Exactly. HUNTLEY: What did the teachers and Mr. Bell do that day? GARY: Mr. Bell was running around like a chicken with his head cut off. Mr. Bell did not want us to leave that school. One teacher, like I said, Ms. Woolfolk, turned like she did not see. Ms. Goree was another teacher that acted as if she did not see. Now we had a number of teachers that told us we were wrong. That we were breaking laws and we were putting our parents&#039 ; jobs in jeopardy. That we would be penalized. HUNTLEY: That didn&#039 ; t stop you? GARY: That did not stop us. HUNTLEY: So, then you left Ullman in mass and marched where? GARY: We went down, we came down to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. They were going out in groups. We went out in groups. As soon as one group cleared then another group. The idea was that they were not going to be able to, they did not have enough police to stop. HUNTLEY: All those number of people. GARY: Exactly. Kelly Ingram Park, as far as you could see was just people, people everywhere. Which was a difference because, like I said, when we first started, the first couple of demonstrations that I took part in, there were 15 to 20 people. So, that was... HUNTLEY: The children had not been enlisted when you first started. GARY: Right. Well, they were using the college students at that time, Miles College students. HUNTLEY: Then when they started to get all of the high school and junior high school students involved, that&#039 ; s what overwhelmed the city. GARY: Exactly. HUNTLEY: Jose Williams, was who you were talking about. GARY: Jose Williams. HUNTLEY: Who came to Ullman that day? GARY: Jose Williams. HUNTLEY: Jose did? GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: Explain to me, if you can remember, what it was like leaving Sixteenth Street Baptist Church in the group of folk that you left with. What did you see and how did that impact upon you? GARY: Leaving out of the basement because that&#039 ; s where we left from, down in the basement. As we came out and we had our signs and all, I remember that I started crying. When I looked up and saw all of the people, I guess it was just the idea of what was about to take place. The things that we had heard about, that Dr. King had talked about. How the movement was just moving forward. It was just overwhelming. HUNTLEY: Were your club members with you that day? GARY: Right. HUNTLEY: Were all of you together? GARY: No, we were separated. I think it was two, three or four of us together in one group and three or four in another. HUNTLEY: When you got out onto the street what did you do? GARY: We went around the corner and I guess that must have been 17th Street. We got right around the corner from 17th Street, that was when the water hose met us. HUNTLEY: Were you hit with the water? GARY: Yes. By me being small I was one of the first ones in line along with one of my club members, Jackie Rep. We had been taught, that if they put the water hose on you, to sit down and cover your face so that the pressure of the water would not hurt your eyes. We were taught to sit down and if we balled up into balls, then the water would not hurt as much. But that was not so. That water washed the two of us, I can remember us balling up, hugging together and the water just washing us down the street. HUNTLEY: And you were sitting? GARY: Sitting and balled up and the water just washed us down the street. HUNTLEY: Forceful? GARY: Forceful. It was like pins maybe, sticking you in your arms and legs and things. Water was very, very forceful. HUNTLEY: Did you then find yourself, eventually, getting up and then going back to the church? GARY: Going back to the church. What I did was to leave the church and go home and changed clothes. My other club member did not leave and she was arrested on that day. She was arrested again on that day. HUNTLEY: Oh, she had been arrested with you before? GARY: Right. HUNTLEY: She got arrested again prior to getting back to the church? GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you know that she had been arrested before you got back? GARY: No, I didn&#039 ; t know until I got back. I thought she was going...I looked up and saw my parents. My parents had come down and, like I said, I went home to change clothes because I was soaked. HUNTLEY: Did you come back? GARY: Came back down. HUNTLEY: Did your parents bring you back down? GARY: They brought me back. HUNTLEY: They were apprehensive... GARY: They were apprehensive, but ,yet, they knew that this was something that I truly believed in. I guess they felt like, well, she&#039 ; s been to jail before so... HUNTLEY: Were they involved? Were your parents involved? GARY: No more than like I told you. My father had us to sit on that seat. No, they did not. HUNTLEY: Did they attend any of the mass meetings? GARY: Yes, they began to attend the mass meetings after the first time I was arrested. Then they began to attend the meetings, because the day that the water was put on me, they did not even know that I had come down. They just happened to be standing out around. HUNTLEY: Oh, so they were not aware, you did not tell them that you were going down there that day? GARY: No, I did not tell them that I was going that day. They took me home and I changed clothes and they brought me back downtown. HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested again after that first time? GARY: No, I was never arrested again. I tried, especially when all my other club members were in jail, because all of the others managed to get arrested on D-Day for the second time. HUNTLEY: Do you remember the night that A. D. King&#039 ; s home was bombed and A. G. Gaston&#039 ; s Motel was bombed? GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: Where were you that night? Were you at home? GARY: I was at home, but we got in the car and we came down. HUNTLEY: With your mother and father? GARY: My father, my father brought us down. That&#039 ; s also the night that Attorney Shores&#039 ; house was bombed. Is that not correct? Because I remember going over there when we left from downtown. HUNTLEY: There were guards at the various homes and churches and, in fact, in communities as well. GARY: Yes. HUNTLEY: Do you remember anyone in your community standing guard? GARY: My father and several other men in the neighborhood set up night patrols. They would, they had someone posted right there on the corner of Greensprings and Goldwire. They had someone posted right at the entrance on 15th Avenue, off of Greensprings, down the hill, because that&#039 ; s the area. Some were round by Western Street School, just all over the neighborhood. Anywhere where a car could come in, they had someone posted. HUNTLEY: Do you know if they were armed? GARY: Probably, probably they were. HUNTLEY: I&#039 ; ve talked to various people and some say yes and some say no. I had one person to say that I was not, but others that were. GARY: That&#039 ; s the way it was. My daddy did not believe in weapons. I know that he was not, but like I said, I know that some were. HUNTLEY: Right. GARY: Because everyone did not believe in non-violence. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. September 15, 1963, Sixteenth Street Baptist Church bombed. Where were you? GARY: We were home that Sunday. When the church was bombed it was like a dark cast on that day. Just looked like a gray day. It happened that Cynthia Wesley was in my sister&#039 ; s class. Denise McNair&#039 ; s father and my mother finished Tuskegee together--was a music teacher at Washington Elementary school. The only one that we were not connected to, in some kind of way, was Addie Collins. My grandmother was a member of Sixteenth Street Baptist Church before her death. So, I was familiar with the church and everything. It was a sad day. HUNTLEY: Where were you a member? Where did your family go to church? GARY: We went to Our Lady Phantom, a Catholic church. HUNTLEY: That was a...you know the picture that I get of that day and someone else has said that it was a gray day. It was a gray day in Birmingham. GARY: It was. HUNTLEY: Spiritually it was one of those creepy days. Know if you knew the children that died then it had to have been...Did you attend the funerals? GARY: Yes, I did. I attended, again, along with my club members. We attended the funerals. We did not attend Carol Robinson&#039 ; s funeral. We went to the three funerals that was held together at 6th Avenue. HUNTLEY: Turbulent times. What did you do after finishing at Ullman High School? GARY: After finishing Ullman High School I attended Miles College. I received my B.S. in 1970. I later forwarded my education at UAB. In 1970 I became a teacher for the Birmingham City Board of Education. HUNTLEY: Where did you teach? What school? GARY: I taught one year at Patterson, two years at Coleman, which was predominately White. For the last 25 years I&#039 ; ve been at Hudson Middle School in Collegeville. HUNTLEY: What was it like going to Coleman? GARY: My first year of teaching I taught at Patterson, up under Dr. John Campbell. I had a blackboard and 50 children in a classroom. The next year, because of integration, I was moved to Coleman, because we had to have a certain ratio of Black to White teachers. So, I was moved to Coleman Elementary School where it was maybe, maybe two Blacks per classroom. This was a very, very small neighborhood school in Crestline. It was a middle-class school where, as Patterson, was a low- poverty area. At Coleman we had everything that we could think of to work with the children. Where at Patterson we did not. Even at that time the classroom load was 25. HUNTLEY: Versus 52? GARY: Versus 50. All you had to do was, if you wanted to do the job, all you had to do was to tell them what you wanted to work with and those parents provided it for you to work with those kids. I asked to be transferred back to a Black school because I felt like, if I was going to work with children, I wanted to work with my own children. And I was sent to Hudson Middle School, well, it was Hudson Elementary School at the time. It was the largest school in the city of Birmingham, at the time we had 1,800 children. HUNTLEY: In an elementary school? GARY: An elementary school. Again I was back to the 40 something in a classroom versus the way schools are now. HUNTLEY: Were you still in Titusville at the time? GARY: No, I had married and we moved away from Titusville. HUNTLEY: How would you characterize Birmingham, the changes in Birmingham over time based upon what we&#039 ; ve talked about today? GARY: I think, as far as integration is concerned, I think that it has helped us in a lot of ways and that we&#039 ; re able to, the opportunity is out there and all we have to do is take advantage of them. I think it had hurt us in other ways. The ways I think that it has hurt us is that we have lost the closeness of our communities. We&#039 ; ve lost the closeness of our families. Our children have lost their heritage. They don&#039 ; t realize how far we&#039 ; ve come and they&#039 ; re not taken advantage of it. I feel like with the grace of God and education, that the children can do anything that they want to do. However, they&#039 ; re not taken advantage of the situation. I think our parents need to wake up. When I was a child the parents, we could not go everywhere, we did not have a whole lot but that, that we had our parents taught us to appreciate and they taught us the value of an education and they gave us love. Now the parents, well, it&#039 ; s not all of them, you know that, but I feel like we have a lost generation and if we don&#039 ; t reach back and pull our children up, then we&#039 ; re going to be in a worse shape than we were 25, 30 years ago. At that time they had our bodies, where in now they have our minds. HUNTLEY: I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule. You&#039 ; ve been very helpful. Your analysis is very enlightening. I want to thank you for coming. Is there anything else that we did not cover that you would like to leave with us.GARY: Yes, I would like to state that I was one of the very first, I was fortunate to be one of the first to integrate the Holiday Inn on 3rd Avenue. Also, this hot dog stand that was on the same street as Newberry&#039 ; s, I can&#039 ; t think of the name of it. HUNTLEY: 19th Street. GARY: 19th Street. I was first to integrate that hot dog shop. The Leary Theater. HUNTLEY: You mean you went downstairs in the Leary? GARY: I went downstairs. The Melba Theater up on 3rd Avenue and also the Alabama Theater. And that was due to Ms. Roberson chose other kids, as well as, myself to test the law after it had been passed. So, I got a chance to do that. HUNTLEY: A pioneer. GARY: A pioneer. HUNTLEY: Certainly, appreciate it. GARY: I thank you. HUNTLEY: You really enlightened us and this tape will be a part of the collection of many others. It simply can only enhance what we&#039 ; ve done. GARY: Thank you so much, Dr. Huntley. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ASGary1998.xml ASGary1998.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Annetta Streeter Gary Description An account of the resource Annetta Streeter Gary discusses participating in the Children's March, being arrested and returning to school and mass meetings upon her release. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19980604G Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Ullman High School (Birmngham, Ala.) King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1998-06-04 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/414b87ed13241b217a7b64aed43f4d65.png 3a145302e471d69df6b31136e887f595 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Frank Dukes OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=FDukes1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Police brutality--United States OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 May 11, 1995 Rev. Frank Dukes 19950511D 0:51:53 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Emily Reynolds Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Connor, Theophilus Eugene (Bull Connor) Miles College Selective Buying Campaign Police brutality--United States Frank Dukes Horace Huntley Video 1:|1(2)|16(6)|39(10)|52(6)|62(8)|75(13)|88(9)|106(12)|133(10)|151(16)|173(12)|187(3)|198(12)|212(13)|223(11)|237(11)|252(3)|261(2)|275(8)|286(5)|303(12)|325(8)|342(7)|353(7)|362(2)|374(1)|386(2)|398(6)|413(9)|431(13)|440(6)|452(4)|464(11)|484(8)|500(15)|515(6)|544(11)|559(2)|570(2)|581(6)|593(15)|603(12)|618(1)|635(9)|656(5)|669(4)|678(2)|688(4)|697(6)|714(12)|727(14) 0 https://youtu.be/zULntubZIxY YouTube video English 0 Interview Introduction This is an interview with Rev. Frank Dukes for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. It is May 11, 1995. Introduction to interview with Rev. Frank Dukes. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 109 Family Background and Childhood I just want to start by asking some background questions. Where were your parents from? Rev. Dukes discusses where he was born, his immediate family, and the education/employment of his parents. African Americans--Employment ; Avon Cosmetics ; Fairfield (Ala.) African American families 202 Community in Fairfield, Ala. Tell me then, Fairfield is known, really around the country for any number of things, particularly the steel and for being the birthplace of Willie Mays. Can you describe the community of Fairfield as you grew up? Rev. Dukes discusses life in Fairfield, Alabama, including educational and recreational experiences from his youth. African Americans--Recreation ; African Americans--Southern States ; Education--Southern States Fairfield (Ala.) 411 Black Community's Relationship with Police What was your community's relationship to the police department? Rev. Dukes describes the relationship between local police and the Black community in Fairfield, Alabama. African Americans--Southern States ; Police brutality--United States African Americans--Civil rights ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 435 Military Service and Early Career So after you finished high school, what did you do? Rev. Dukes describes his time serving in the Army and working in the auto industry in Detroit, Michigan. African American soldiers ; African Americans--Employment ; Chrysler Corporation ; Dodge automobile African Americans--Michigan--Detroit ; United States. Army 548 Return to Alabama and Enrollment at Miles College And when you came back to Birmingham did you then live in Birmingham or in Fairfield? Rev. Dukes discusses his experience as a student at Miles College. African American students ; Craps (Game) ; Fairfield (Ala.) ; Student government America's historically Black colleges and universities ; Miles College 689 Student Engagement in Civil Rights Movement You happened then to have been at Miles at a very, volatile time, because in 1960 of course, you had the beginning of the student sit-in movement, although it had began much earlier, but the college students started to get involved. Rev. Dukes discusses the formation of student-led protests during the Civil Rights Movement. African American student movements ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; America's historically Black colleges and universities ; Connor, Theophilus Eugene (Bull Connor) ; Greensboro Sit-ins, Greensboro, N.C., 1960 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 African Americans--Civil rights ; Miles College 910 Childhood Experiences with Racism And I personally never accepted the role of being subservient to White folks, even as a boy, a young boy. Rev. Dukes describes childhood experiences with racism, as well as his family's views on standing up for oneself. African American children ; African Americans--Southern States Racism--United States 1000 Selective Buying Campaign in Birmingham Selective Buying Campaign... What actually precipitated the Selective Buying Campaign? Rev. Dukes discusses the Selective Buying Campaign and its impact on Birmingham and the Civil Rights Movement. African American student movements ; African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; African Americans--Employment--Law and legislation ; Alabama--Politics and government--1951- ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Connor, Theophilus Eugene (Bull Connor) ; History of the civil rights movement ; Miles College ; Segregation--United States African Americans--Economic conditions ; Civil rights movement 1697 Community Partners in Selective Buying Campaign Was the Alabama Christian Movement involved with you at that point? Rev. Dukes discusses the Miles College students' partners in the Selective Buying Campaign, and the results of these relationships. African American student movements ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Miles College ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 History of the civil rights movement ; Segregation--United States 1845 Results of Selective Buying Campaign Your demands, the demands that you made that resulted in the development of the Selective Buying Campaign, how successful were you in realizing them? Rev. Dukes discusses how the Selective Buying Campaign unified the Black community of Birmingham, and connected activists with the larger Civil Rights Movement. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Lee, Bernard Scott, -1991 ; Miles College ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference ; Walker, Wyatt Tee ; Young, Andrew, 1932- African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Segregation--Law and legislation 2048 Arrest, Trial, and Jail Experiences Dr. Huntley: Did you go to jail? Rev: Dukes: Yeah, twice. Dr. Huntley: What were the circumstances? Rev. Dukes describes his experiences with being arrested and jailed, as well trial proceedings in Birmingham. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; African Americans--Legal status, laws, etc ; African Americans--Religion ; Connor, Theophilus Eugene (Bull Connor) ; King, A. D. ; Racism--United States--History--20th century ; Smith, Nelson H. African Americans--Civil rights ; Birmingham (Ala.). City Commission ; History of the civil rights movement 2316 Post-1963 Movement Activism at Miles College Usually when we start talking about the Movement here in Birmingham we usually end up in 1963 and we know that the Movement continued. What were you doing after the demonstrations of '63? Rev. Dukes discusses his work as the Director of Public Relations and Alumni Affairs at Miles College, and continued participation in the Selective Buying Campaign and Civil Rights Movement. African American student movements ; America's historically Black colleges and universities ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). City Commission ; Congress of Racial Equality ; Racism--United States--History--20th century ; Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.) African Americans--Civil rights ; Miles College 2795 Reflections on Courage and Student Movement Momentum You now had been away from Birmingham, you had been in the military, you had lived in Detroit, others, I guess, Dr. McPherson had probably been away. [...] What do you think provided the courage for those of you who had been away, but more so those who had probably not been away from Birmingham? Rev. Dukes reflects on how activism and media representation inspired others to become involved in the Movement. African American student movements ; African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Birmingham (Ala.) Miles College 2960 Reflection on Changes in Birmingham Are there any issues that we have not touched on that you would like to just mention before we end our session today? Rev. Dukes reflects on the changes that have taken place in Birmingham as a result of the Civil Rights Movement. African American judges ; African American leadership ; African American mayors ; African American police chiefs ; African Americans--Employment--Law and legislation ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Clemon, U. W., 1943- ; Connor, Theophilus Eugene (Bull Connor) African Americans--Civil rights 3068 Interview Conclusion It's been a pleasure, Rev. Dukes to have you with us today. And I certainly do appreciate it. Interview conclusion with Rev. Frank Dukes. Oral History Rev. Frank Dukes discusses being a major organizer in the Movement, from facilitating the Selective Buying Campaign to being arrested in the Easter march of 1963. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Rev. Frank Dukes for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. It is May 11, 1995. Thank you, Rev. Dukes, for coming and taking time out of your busy schedule to sit with us today. Obviously what we are attempting to do is to put ourselves in a position so that there is a possibility of writing the real history of Birmingham and the Movement and we know that you played a prominent role in that. So thank you for coming out to help us. DUKES: Well, thanks for inviting me. HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking some background questions. Where were your parents from? DUKES: Well, my mother was from Selma, Alabama. My father from Fairfield, Alabama. HUNTLEY: And you were born where? DUKES: In Fairfield. HUNTLEY: In Fairfield? Is Fairfield a suburb of Birmingham or is Birmingham a suburb of Fairfield? DUKES: Larry Langford would say it&#039 ; s a suburb of Fairfield. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have and what was your rank order? DUKES: Well, there were eight of us. Now there are seven. I am the third from the top. HUNTLEY: All right. So you are the third oldest? DUKES: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me just a bit about your parents and their education. DUKES: Well, my father had an 11th grade education. And my mother had about an 8th or 9th grade education because she went to night school to get that far. She was a domestic worker for many years. And after that she became an Avon salesperson. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your father do? DUKES: A steel worker. HUNTLEY: In Fairfield? Tell me then, Fairfield is known, really around the country for any number of things, particularly the steel and for being the birthplace of Willie Mays. Can you describe the community of Fairfield as you grew up? DUKES: Fairfield was quite a stable community during those days and I&#039 ; m speaking comparatively now. Most of the persons worked in one of the steel mills or the brick yard or some place. Fairfield Industrial High School, in my opinion, was the greatest high in the world. Academics were stressed, first priority, second priority, third priority as well as discipline. And there are Fairfield graduates holding down very significant professional positions in all of the major cities in this country. HUNTLEY: There was a gentleman there at Fairfield that set the tone, Dr. Oliver. DUKES: Professor E. J. Oliver. In my opinion the greatest principal that ever lived. A strict disciplinarian who placed all emphasis on discipline and education. And when we used to go down to Montgomery to compete against high schools from all over Alabama, those were during the days of segregation, there were no Whites to compete against, though it wouldn&#039 ; t have mattered. We would have done just as well or better, I&#039 ; m sure. But we used to win the majority of the first-place ribbons in all of the academic subjects, math, science, biology, chemistry, you name it, we won it. HUNTLEY: So, you look then at Fairfield as setting a firm foundation for you and the community, the high school? DUKES: Very much so. For example, if you attended Fairfield Industrial High, if you were absent, you had to go back home the next day and bring your mother or your father or your aunt or uncle or somebody that Professor Oliver knew. Or the same thing applied if you were tardy. So, it was well run, well organized. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about recreation in Fairfield? DUKES: Well, there was just, aside from the high school football and basketball teams, those were the only two sports we had in those days. And, of course, the band. And then there was sandlot baseball. Most of the companies like USX at that time it was US Steel, they would sponsor teams. ACIPICO would have a team. Stockman would have a team. They would compete against each other. HUNTLEY: What was your community&#039 ; s relationship to the police department? DUKES: Horrible. There was no relationship. Horrible. The police had one job that was to arrest Black folk. HUNTLEY: So are you suggesting that the police was not in the community to protect and serve? DUKES: I am not suggesting that, I am stating it emphatically. No! They were not. HUNTLEY: So after you finished high school, what did you do? DUKES: I had a couple of small nondescription jobs and then I left and went into the army in &#039 ; 49. HUNTLEY: How long were you in the army? DUKES: In &#039 ; 49 I went in and stayed a year. I got a discharge in September of &#039 ; 50. Went back in -- got discharged in July rather in &#039 ; 50 and went right back in September of &#039 ; 50 when the Korean War started. And I got out in October of &#039 ; 51 and I went back in the service in &#039 ; 54 and got out -- was discharged in &#039 ; 57. HUNTLEY: What did you do between &#039 ; 51 and &#039 ; 54? DUKES: I worked at the Dodge automobile plant which was a division of Chrysler. HUNTLEY: And where was that? DUKES: Detroit, Michigan. HUNTLEY: Detroit. How did you compare Detroit with Birmingham? DUKES: Oh, it beat Birmingham in a thousand different ways in terms of discrimination and segregation and all that kind of stuff. It was not a panacea, however, but it was a far cry from what we had to undergo here in the south. HUNTLEY: So you then went back into the military from Detroit? DUKES: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you were in the military then until &#039 ; 57? DUKES: Yes. HUNTLEY: And after your discharge in &#039 ; 57 what did you do? DUKES: I went back to Detroit and went back to work at the Dodge automobile plant. And I got laid off in &#039 ; 58 I believe it was. And I came back to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: And when you came back to Birmingham did you then live in Birmingham or in Fairfield? DUKES: I lived in Fairfield. HUNTLEY: Were you married at the time? DUKES: No. HUNTLEY: Still a young man, foot loose and fancy free? DUKES: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: In 1958 Birmingham was embarking on, at least preparing for what would take place in the next few years. In &#039 ; 56, of course, the NAACP was outlawed from operating in the State of Alabama. And the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights is developed. In 1958 when you returned, did you go to work at US Steel? DUKES: No. No. When I came back in 1958, I was hustling in the pool room, shooting craps. HUNTLEY: Okay. DUKES: That kind of stuff. And I was waiting to go back to Detroit to work at the Dodge automobile plant when they sent me a telegram to come back. In the meantime I started to Miles in &#039 ; 59. And when they called me to come back to work at Dodge Main, I decided to stay in college. I didn&#039 ; t go back. HUNTLEY: So you remained in college, at Miles, between &#039 ; 58 and -- DUKES: Well, I started in &#039 ; 59, the summer of &#039 ; 59. HUNTLEY: You were a student leader at the time? DUKES: Yes. I was student government president. HUNTLEY: How did that evolve? How did you get involved in the student government? DUKES: Well, you know, when it&#039 ; s time to run for the offices, a lot of the students asked me to run, so I ran and I won. HUNTLEY: So you were perceived as a leader when you. . . DUKES: Yes, well you see, I was much older than the majority of the students. You see, I was about 29 or 30 when I went to college and most of these kids were like 18, 19 or 20. HUNTLEY: You happened then to have been at Miles at a very, volatile time, because in 1960 of course, you had the beginning of the student sit-in movement, although it had began much earlier, but the college students started to get involved. In &#039 ; 61 you had the Freedom Riders to come and Miles then is organizing. Tell me a little about that period between &#039 ; 60 and the demonstrations of &#039 ; 63. HUNTLEY: Well, I believe it was in &#039 ; 59, the fall of &#039 ; 59, some of the students went down in the park, Kelly Ingram Park to protest and they were arrested. And at that time Dr. Bell was the president of Miles College and his philosophy was 360 degrees away from ours in terms of what we were about. HUNTLEY: &quot ; We,&quot ; meaning the students? DUKES: Students, yes. And so that little protest didn&#039 ; t get off the ground really because the infamous Bull Conner was in office then as you may well know and we didn&#039 ; t really get involved again until I would think, probably around late &#039 ; 61 when we started organizing. HUNTLEY: Right. Were you at all involved or knew what was taking place with the development of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights? DUKES: No, but I became a member before the demonstrations and the selective buying campaign. But in the very beginning when Rev. Shuttles worth organized it, I don&#039 ; t think I had come back to Birmingham at that time. HUNTLEY: Right. They organized in &#039 ; 56 and you were away at that time. In &#039 ; 61 when the organizing of students started to take place, what precipitated that? DUKES: Well, some of the students like in North Carolina were protesting and demonstrating and a group of us felt that we should do the same thing because we were hamstrung by segregation, discrimination and all those other ills and wrongs. So we just got a committee together. U. W. Clemon who is now Federal Judge U. W. Clemon, Shelley Millender, a fellow by the name of Reuther Meredith and Dr. Jonathan McPherson, who at that time was a chemistry professor, who is now the owner of Scott-McPherson Funeral Home. He was our advisor and worked with us in the very beginning. HUNTLEY: And this is based upon what you saw happening in North Carolina with the four students who started the sit-ins? DUKES: Yes. We felt that we could not sit idly by and not protest here because the conditions in Alabama were worse than those in North Carolina. And I personally never accepted the role of being subservient to White folks, even as a boy, a young boy. HUNTLEY: What do you remember. Why do you say that &quot ; as a young boy, you didn&#039 ; t accept it?&quot ; DUKES: Because occasionally I would get in fights with White boys about calling me &quot ; nigger&quot ; and I would fight at the drop of a hat. And then, you know, you would walk on the sidewalk sometime and you approach a White person and they would want you to move off and let them by and I refused to do it, and stuff like that. HUNTLEY: What did your parents say about that kind of behavior at the time? DUKES: Well, my mother and in particular my grandmother, always told us not to pick a fight, but don&#039 ; t run from a fight. If anybody accosted us, to stand our ground. Be the person Black, White, Green or Brown. HUNTLEY: So when you arrived at Miles College with that kind of background, and with what had started to develop and students starting to get involved in the struggle, you basically were already primed already for that kind of activity? DUKES: Yes. HUNTLEY: What actually precipitated the Selective Buying Campaign? DUKES: Well, Dr. Pitts got word that a group of students were getting ready for some direct action so he sent for us and he wanted to know what we were going to do, what we planned to do because he was not going to fight us. Rather he was going to advise us because he had had a lot of experience in that kind of thing down through the years. And he wanted us to protest like we wanted to protest but he wanted us to do it in an organized fashion and to do it in such a way that hopefully, we wouldn&#039 ; t get killed off the bat. So we started to meet, and then Dr. Pitts, if you have heard anything about him at all, you know he was one of the world&#039 ; s greatest diplomats and a brilliant man. He had a good relationship with the White leaders in Metropolitan Birmingham as well as the Black leaders. He talked with a bunch of the White power structure persons and we started to having meetings with these White businessmen in an effort to get these stores desegregated, hire Black salesman, Black firemen, Black policemen, everything we have now. We started to meeting with these gentlemen in an effort to try to get them to use their power to bring this about. HUNTLEY: Does this precede the &#039 ; 63 demonstrations? DUKES: Right. HUNTLEY: Because those were some of the demands that were being generated. DUKES: Right. Well, had it not been for the success of the Selective Buying Campaign, actually it was a boycott, but in those days, a boycott was illegal, so we had to call it selective buying. Had it not been for the success of the Selective Buying Campaign, there wouldn&#039 ; t have been the demonstration of &#039 ; 63 because the Selective Buying Campaign got the Black populace of Birmingham ready for direct action. HUNTLEY: Tell me, why do you think that there was such a difference between President Bell and President Pitts? DUKES: Well, Dr. Pitts was a visionary. Also, he had never accepted the role that had been forced upon Black people by the White power structure across this country. And Dr. Bell philosophically I would think, or maybe from a more of a practical standpoint, if not philosophically, had acclimated himself to blend in and follow the rule of law as set forth by the White folk. HUNTLEY: Was Bell originally from Birmingham? DUKES: I think he came from Georgia. I know he lived in Georgia most of the time when he was president here. HUNTLEY: And Dr. Pitts, was not originally from here? DUKES: No. No. He was from Georgia. HUNTLEY: Right. Explain to me how the organization of the Selective Buying Campaign took place. DUKES: Well, we started to meeting first of all with some of the White power structure. The late Sydney Smyer, James A. Head, I think he&#039 ; s still alive. Emil Hess of Parisian&#039 ; s. The president of Loveman&#039 ; s, the president of, a fellow named Roper Dial, who was president of Sears, Roebuck. It must have been some seven or eight. HUNTLEY: You say &quot ; we&quot ; , who are you referring to? DUKES: Well, that would have been U. W. Clemon, Shelley Millender, Wrother Meredith, Dr. McPherson and myself. HUNTLEY: All Mileians? DUKES: Yes. HUNTLEY: And this is the initial contact with the &quot ; power structure?&quot ; DUKES: Right. Right. HUNTLEY: And how did those meetings go? DUKES: Well, in the very beginning they got off to a shaky start because the White power persons were trying to tell us to wait and things would work themselves out and we couldn&#039 ; t buy that. And they were telling us that they didn&#039 ; t have any power to change anything in Birmingham because they lived in Mountain Brook and Bull Conner was a beast and that they were afraid of him, and all that kind of stuff. HUNTLEY: So they were portraying that difference then between the business community and the government of Birmingham? DUKES: Right. HUNTLEY: And they wanted you to slow your pace? DUKES: Exactly. HUNTLEY: And allow them to do certain things? DUKES: Well, they hadn&#039 ; t planned to do anything. They were really stalling. Like the stall had been on for hundreds of years, you know. But, while we were having these meetings, I guess after we had met about, five times, we saw that they weren&#039 ; t going to do anything but stall and we were getting ready to start our Selective Buying Campaign and we told them this, but they didn&#039 ; t believe that it would work, you see. So we started the Selective Buying Campaign. HUNTLEY: As a result of their inactivity? DUKES: Yes. Well, we had done our research and we knew that department stores operated on a 15% margin of profit and we knew all we had to do was cut into the margin of profit and that would make the owners of those department stores or managers or presidents, what have you, have another thought about trying to give us some redress of our grievances. And when we started the Selective Buying Campaign after about five or six weeks, Birmingham was lily white downtown. You didn&#039 ; t see any Black people shopping at all. And when we first started, some of those businessmen had pushed Bull Conner to try to get him to change the laws here and Bull Conner said, &quot ; We aren&#039 ; t going to change anything because those niggers are not going to stay out of downtown shopping, they&#039 ; ll be back.&quot ; And when they didn&#039 ; t go back, Miles College in the meantime had started a March of Dimes drive to get books for the library and we had to get a permit to march for this fund-raising drive and Bull Conner denied us the permit. And from that we got national and international publicity and that helped to start the ball to really rolling. And during that period of time, some of the stores desegregated the water fountains and the restrooms but they didn&#039 ; t hire any Black salespersons or anything like that. HUNTLEY: What was the mechanism that the students used to get Black people in the communities that were not part of Miles College involved in the Selective Buying Campaign? DUKES: Well, we ran thousands of, hundreds of thousands of leaflets listing what we were protesting about. We wanted Black firemen, Black policemen, Black folk at Social Security, Black folk at Internal Revenue, all the jobs Black folk now hold was what we were asking for plus desegregating restaurants. Because at that time, the only jobs that Black folk could get in Birmingham, you either had to be a preacher in a Black church, teacher in a Black school or an insurance salesman. There were two public health workers who doubled as social workers. A lady named Mildred Feldon and another gentleman whose name I can&#039 ; t recall. But aside from those two individuals, nobody else worked out in the White community or had their office headquarters in the White community. Because they worked in the Black community, they didn&#039 ; t deal with the White folk who needed their services. HUNTLEY: Although there were many Black domestics that worked in White homes? DUKES: Right. Well, most of the time, we could always tell Thursday in downtown Birmingham because that was the maid&#039 ; s day off in Mountain Brook. And all of those ladies would come downtown to shop and go to the restaurants and bars and different places. HUNTLEY: Well, were there any difficulties with any of the people. Did you have to persuade anyone not to use the stores at the time of the SBC? DUKES: Well, we would have meetings out in the community sometime with groups and explain our situation. And we just kept these leaflets flowing. See, we would get up early every Sunday morning maybe like 4:00 o&#039 ; clock. And we would have the back seat and trunk of cars loaded with leaflets and we would go around, and at that time, churches didn&#039 ; t lock their doors. So we could go in the churches and we would put leaflets on all the benches so when the people got to church they could read them. And then we would put them in all of the public places. And then we would go into the White banks and leave them on the table where you wrote out checks and stuff. So we got the word around. HUNTLEY: Was the Alabama Christian Movement involved with you at that point? DUKES: No. HUNTLEY: When did they get involved with the Miles students? DUKES: Well, before we even started our meetings, we met with the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights and Rev. Shuttlesworth and told them what we were about because we needed his blessing in order to start our program. So, that&#039 ; s how we got involved with them. But the actual mechanics of SBC was conducted and operated by Miles College students and some of the Black ladies from the Birmingham community. Folk like Deenie Drew and Ruth Barefield Pendleton, and Dr. Montgomery&#039 ; s wife, Althea. HUNTLEY: What were their roles? DUKES: They helped us. They furnished transportation and Deenie Drew, as you know, looks like a White woman and she could go places and get stuff for us and go into the White Citizens Council meeting and stuff and get information and bring it back. HUNTLEY: So she actually went to the White Citizens&#039 ; Council meetings? DUKES: Yes. HUNTLEY: So they were very supportive of the efforts here? DUKES: Yes. They worked real hard. As a matter of fact, we had a big meeting once at Deenie Drew&#039 ; s house of all the significant number of Black professional women, who at that time was mostly school teachers. Because most of them had charge accounts at Burger Phillips, Pizitz, etc. Black women traded at most of the department stores and we had a meeting with those women and told them to stop going into the stores shopping. Stop buying any kind of clothing from them because we wanted the SBC to be a success. And we would say things like, &quot ; If you go in Loveman&#039 ; s or Pizitz&#039 ; and you spend $500 you can&#039 ; t go up on the mezzanine and spend a quarter for a glass of tea.&quot ; And they could see the difference. HUNTLEY: The demands that you made that resulted in the development of the SBC, how successful were you in realizing them? DUKES: Well, as I said earlier, what we really got out of the SBC was unification of the Black community psychologically and philosophically and in terms of like the desegregation of stores and all this kind of stuff. All that we got was the desegregation of water fountains and the restrooms. HUNTLEY: So you laid foundation for SCLC and the Alabama Christian Movement? DUKES: Right. Well, in the middle of the SBC, Dr. King sent Wyatt T. Walker, Andrew Young and Bernard Lee out here to Miles College to confer with me. And what he wanted me to do was to let him know when I felt that Birmingham was ready for a non-violent demonstration. And on the strength of the success of our SBC we notified Dr. King that Birmingham was ready, Black Birmingham was ready. And that&#039 ; s when he came to Birmingham and met with the Black leaders and so forth. HUNTLEY: You mentioned that you had the blessings of Rev. Shuttles worth and the Alabama Christian Movement. Were you getting any physical assistance from the Movement during those days? DUKES: Well, as I recall, you know, you are talking 30 something years ago. We just went at it on our own and we would go to the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights meetings every Monday night to let the people know what was going on and what we were doing. And we got their blessing. But the majority of all those leaflets being handed out and all that kind of stuff was done by Miles College students and some of those ladies that I had previously mentioned. HUNTLEY: So you attended the Movement meetings, the Alabama Christian Movement meetings on Monday night? DUKES: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you describe what those meetings were like? DUKES: Well, they were really church meetings, and there would always be a main speaker, somebody would preach and then there would be some other people who would talk about the segregation and discrimination and all this stuff that we were encountering. And this was the gist of the meeting from meeting to meeting. HUNTLEY: Were you aware that Birmingham policemen were present? DUKES: Yes. They sat down on the front bench with tape recorders and recorded everything that went on. And we said what we wanted to say and they recorded it. Oftentimes the police who would be recording what was being said, and when collection time came around they would put money in the collection plate. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s interesting. Did you go to jail? DUKES: Yes. Twice. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances? DUKES: Well, in &#039 ; 63, Easter Sunday, N. H. Smith, A. D. King, John Porter and me, we led the march in &#039 ; 63 from Thurgood CME Church. At that time it was on 7th Avenue and 11th Street and we led that particular march and we got arrested. After we had gotten about a couple of blocks, Chief Jamie Moore and his storm troopers came down on us and we all got arrested. HUNTLEY: How long did you remain in jail? DUKES: On that account, I was in for five days. And then the next time I went to jail was when we had a trial and Bull Conner had issued orders to the judge to fine all the &quot ; niggers&quot ; $100 and six months, 180 days. Judge Brown was adjudicating the trials and in the middle of this particular trial he died. Had a heart attack and died. HUNTLEY: On the bench? DUKES: On the bench. And we had prayer for the fallen brother. And as soon as they hauled Judge Brown out, Bull Conner sent up for Judge Conway and as soon as Judge Conway sat in the seat that Judge Brown had died in, Bull Conner said continue to giving all the &quot ; niggers&quot ; $100 fine and 180 days and we went off to jail. HUNTLEY: So he was really in control? DUKES: He ran Birmingham. There were two other commissioners, but he ran Birmingham. They were more or less figure heads. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances of your arrest that time, the second time? DUKES: Well, the second time, was we went to jail because we weren&#039 ; t going to pay the fine. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. Were there other instances of your being arrested? DUKES: Going to jail? HUNTLEY: Yes. DUKES: That was the only time I got arrested. HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate? DUKES: My younger brothers and sisters were in the marches but none of them ever got arrested. HUNTLEY: What was the reaction of your family to your involvement? DUKES: Oh, my family was 100% behind me. Because as I told you earlier, we didn&#039 ; t pick fights but we didn&#039 ; t run from fights. We would get in the middle of it. 100% support. HUNTLEY: You were still a single man at the time, during these demonstrations? DUKES: Yes. I was a bachelor as a matter of fact until I became 37. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of at the time? DUKES: At that time it was called First Baptist Annizburg, but now it&#039 ; s called Antioch and it&#039 ; s down on 54th Street here up in Fairfield. HUNTLEY: What was the level of involvement of the church and your pastor at that time? DUKES: Well, I was a member of the church but I was zooming around, doing everything, going everywhere. I wasn&#039 ; t really active in the church, at that time. HUNTLEY: Right. I know later on you would become a minister and we will talk about that in a minute. But how would you say the community of the Birmingham Metropolitan area benefitted from the Movement that was organized by yourself and others that you discussed? DUKES: Oh, as I said earlier, the two main things, as I see it was that we were able to get the folk philosophically and psychologically ready. We wanted them to have courage and not be afraid to protest, and that was achieved. HUNTLEY: Usually when we start talking about the Movement here in Birmingham we usually end up in 1963 and we know that the Movement continued. What were you doing after the demonstrations of &#039 ; 63? DUKES: Well, I finished Miles in May of &#039 ; 62 and Dr. Pitts hired me as Director of Public Relations and Alumni Affairs in June of that same year. So even during the time when we were in the SBC I was working here at Miles College. So I continued to work here to help Dr. Pitts build this institution. HUNTLEY: Was SNCC ever involved with organization here at Miles? DUKES: No. SNCC, CORE, all of those groups would come through here from time to time and talk with us and they wanted to get involved in it, but we believed that we would be more effective if the students who were involved in the fight were from Birmingham. HUNTLEY: So, did you discourage people from outside from participating? DUKES: We didn&#039 ; t really discourage them, but what we told them was that this was a home-grown movement and if they wanted to give us their support, fine. But in terms of the mechanics, we would operate that. HUNTLEY: How many students were involved with Miles at the time? I know in terms of your negotiation you had just a few people involved, but at the height of the Movement, for instance, at high schools and the junior high school, kids left the schools and became involved in the demonstration, how did that transpire here at Miles? DUKES: Well, after we got the SBC going, on one weekend we got a petition and we got all of the Miles College students we could find to sign it. So I would imagine, some 600 or 700 signed it. And then we got citizens from the community to sign it. And we took that petition down to the courthouse, city hall and presented it to Bull Conner and Jabo Wagner and Art Haynes who were the other two commissioners. And the group who took the petition down there was U. W. Clemon, Frank Dukes, Jonathan McPherson and Shelley Millender and we had alerted the press that we were going to be there, so the press was there when we got there. So when they got through with the city&#039 ; s business, Bull Conner wanted to know if anyone else had anything they wanted to say. So Clemon was our first spokesman. And Clemon got up to talk about we wanted Black policemen, firemen and internal revenue employees just everything that we got now. And Bull Conner cursed Clemmons out and called him a bunch of niggers and told him that before there would be Black policemen in Birmingham, niggers would be deacons in the First Baptist Church. That was the big White First Baptist Church up on 21st Street and I think 4th Avenue at that time. And McPherson got up and made his speech and then I got up and made my speech and some of the Black persons in Birmingham who were in cahoots with the police department had told Connor that Dukes was outsider from Detroit stirring up the Negroes in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: These are Black persons? DUKES: Yes. Snitches. Had told Bull Conner that I was not from Birmingham. That I was from Detroit down here stirring up trouble. So Bull Conner told me, he said, &quot ; Well, if you don&#039 ; t like the way I run Birmingham, why don&#039 ; t you leave and go back to Detroit.&quot ; I said, &quot ; This is my hometown, just like it is yours and I&#039 ; m going to stay here until we get it right.&quot ; And he didn&#039 ; t say another word. HUNTLEY: So he reacted to Clemon but he didn&#039 ; t react to either of the others? DUKES: He reacted to McPherson, too. I just don&#039 ; t remember the terminology that he used. But he didn&#039 ; t say anything to me other than what I said. HUNTLEY: Do you remember what happened after that? DUKES: Well, we had a press conference down at Thurgood CME church and they wrote it up and it was on TV and all that. That was about the size of that. HUNTLEY: But then, that is part of that organization to get other people involved? DUKES: Right. And it gave a lot of Black people courage. Because people, both Black and White, were literally afraid of Bull Conner because when the news got out that we were going down there to challenge Bull Conner, people were calling our homes and begging us not to go. HUNTLEY: People like who? Friends of yours? DUKES: Black folk and White folk who knew our families would call and say, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t go, or else you are going to get killed down there.&quot ; But we were committed. HUNTLEY: So there was real concern about the safety of those who had nerve enough to challenge the status quo? DUKES: Yes. Because it was a dangerous thing to do. HUNTLEY: Well, were you or your family ever physically threatened with violence as a result of your activity? DUKES: Not to my knowledge, that I can recall. HUNTLEY: Then, what about faculty other than Dr. McPherson? DUKES: Other than Dr. McPherson, Abraham Woods. I can&#039 ; t think of any other faculty member who actively participated and who went to jail and all of that kind of stuff other than Abraham Woods. HUNTLEY: What about activity on the campus? Were they supportive in terms of allowing students to do certain things. Well, as far as I knew, none of the faculty members fought the students. As a matter of fact, the faculty cooperated, because President Pitts was helping us spear head this thing, so they worked with us from that standpoint. HUNTLEY: What would be your most vivid memory during this struggle when you were making this effort to organize people, develop the SBC, what stands out in your mind more than anything else? DUKES: I would guess, when we first started meeting with those White power structure gentlemen at our first meetings, they addressed us all as niggers and about the third meeting we became boys and about the fourth or fifth meeting we were on first name basis. And you have to have been under bondage to understand why that would stand out. HUNTLEY: You now had been away from Birmingham, you had been in the military, you had lived in Detroit, others, I guess, Dr. McPherson had probably been away. I am not sure about Millender and Clemon. They were younger. What do you think provided the courage for those of you who had been away, but more so those who had probably not been away from Birmingham? DUKES: Well, I didn&#039 ; t get my courage because I had been away. HUNTLEY: ... I had the same experience. I was older when I went into college. Younger people would sort of flock around you. You were sort of a catalyst for others around you because of really, your background. DUKES: Yes. Well, one of the things that engendered the Miles College students to get involved was, David Lowe, a producer with ABC. He came down to Birmingham with a camera crew. I&#039 ; m sure you read about it. They did a documentary on the race question here in Birmingham and they showed it all over the country and it was called &quot ; Who Speaks For Birmingham?&quot ; And many of us spoke and of those of us who spoke, included citizens from the Birmingham community, ABC-TV highlighted what I said and what Shelley Millender said and a few others. And for the students at Miles College, to see us on the screen, defying the White power structure and the Klan and all these people, they got courage. HUNTLEY: So that courage was infectious? DUKES: Yes. HUNTLEY: And really, people became proud of being able to do what you all were doing and so therefore they sought to take part? DUKES: Right. And then everybody was hungry for some freedom because we had none, you know. HUNTLEY: Are there any issues that we have not touched on that you would like to just mention before we end our session today? DUKES: Nothing, other than if it were possible for Bull Conner to be alive, I would like to see him around here to see Federal Judge U. W. Clemon on that 7th floor up there looking out over Birmingham and who he said, &quot ; Better leave out of Birmingham and if he ever came back down there, he was going to have his head beat to a mush.&quot ; And to see the mayor, who is Black, the police chief who is Black with four or five deputy police chiefs who are Black. The fire is Black. The head of the sanitation department is Black. The fight for Freedom, Justice, and Equality was not in vain. HUNTLEY: Change is your greatest revenge? DUKES: Exactly. And it does my heart a lot of good when I go into department stores or Internal Revenue or Social Security and see Black folk who are supervisors and all that kind of stuff. Managers. Before the demonstrations and selective buying campaign, when you saw a Black person in a building downtown he had a mop and a broom, or she had a mop and a broom. HUNTLEY: So all of that changes as a result of the people developing courage to stand on their own two feet? DUKES: Right. With prayer. HUNTLEY: With prayer. It&#039 ; s been a pleasure, Rev. Dukes to have you with us today. And I certainly do appreciate it. We would like to, probably at some later date, after we have gone through all of this, we may want to sit down with you again, but I want to thank you for coming today and we certainly do appreciate it. DUKES: Thanks for inviting me. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=FDukes1995.xml FDukes1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rev. Frank Dukes Description An account of the resource Rev. Frank Dukes discusses being a major organizer in the Movement, from facilitating the Selective Buying Campaign to being arrested in the Easter march of 1963. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950511D Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Connor, Theophilus Eugene (Bull Connor) Miles College Selective Buying Campaign Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-05-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/2ee0444d1152af9d22591ba428b4754e.png a3f9eb850752d1c20487e2e442b5d731 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Binnie Myles Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Herman Dozier OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=HDozier1996.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Voter registration Greensboro, NC OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 April 16, 1996 Herman Dozier 19960416D 0:34:05 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project bcriohp BCRI Oral History BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Meaghan Cash Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Police brutality--United States Southern Christian Leadership Conference Voter registration Greensboro, NC Herman Dozier Binnie Myles Video 1:|22(2)|39(4)|67(11)|88(10)|105(13)|125(5)|139(6)|159(2)|176(7)|191(12)|209(12)|233(10)|244(7)|256(8)|266(6)|276(11)|293(15)|307(8)|326(4)|336(4)|351(15)|364(10)|383(2)|395(2)|413(2)|427(8)|446(2)|457(2)|477(5)|498(9)|514(5)|527(1)|539(4) 0 https://youtu.be/72w6Fzux9Xc YouTube video English 14 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mr. Herman Dozier for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Mr. Dozier is introduced. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 25 Growing Up in Birmingham Mr. Dozier, did you grow up in Birmingham? Mr. Dozier discusses where he was born and moving around with his mother. Pratt City ; Smithfield Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Miles College 53 Early Education and High School Where did you got to school as a youngster? Mr. Dozier discusses his time at various schools throughout his youth. Elementary School ; Football ; Lincoln elementary ; Parker High ; Smithfield ; South Pratt ; Tuggle African Americans--Segregation ; American Youth Football ; Early childhood education ; Legion Field (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Track and field 218 Experiencing Segregation at School What about segregation then? Mr. Dozier discusses some of his experience with segregation during his time in high school. Football African Americans--Segregation ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Legion Field (Birmingham, Ala.) 311 Mother's Work and Relationship with Mother Let's go back--we were talking about parents working for the White man or White families. Mr. Dozier discusses his mother's position as an elevator operator and his discussions with his mother about racial issues and the racial slurs used by White people. Brown-Marx building ; Racial Slurs America--Race relations ; Birmingham (Ala.) 496 Community Life in the Smithfield Area What about the community where you lived, where you lived in Smithfield--do you recall anything about the Movement or things that happened in the neighborhood, the NAACP or SCLC or church gatherings or hearing adults talk about anything? Mr. Dozier explains his experience with parts of the Movement in his childhood community. SCLC ; Smithfield Civil rights movement ; NAACP Collection (Library of Congress) ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 570 Life Shortly After High School and Early Involvement with the Movement When you grew up and you finished high school, did you continue on and go to college or the military? Mr. Dozier explains his early involvement with the Movement right after high school. Jail ; Phillips High School Birmingham (Ala.) ; Chicago (Ill.) ; Greensboro (N.C.) ; King, Coretta Scott, 1927-2006 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Montgomery (Ala.). Police Department ; Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 ; Police brutality--United States ; School integration--United States ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference ; Voter registration--United States 932 Hearing Dr. King Speak for the First Time You said that you had heard Dr. King speak and you knew then that he was a wonderful person. Mr. Dozier explains his time first hearing Dr. King speak and also his mother's reaction to learning of her son's involvement with the Movement. Speech King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 1039 Experience with Voter Registration and the SCLC in Marion, AL Tell us about some of the things that you saw in Marion. Mr. Dozier discusses his time in Marion, AL and the things he experienced while working with the federal registrars. Marion (Al) ; Poverty ; Voting Rights Alabama ; United States. Voting Rights Act of 1965 ; Voter registration--United States 1230 Thinking Back on Time in the Movement and Experience with the Klan When you were growing up and you look back at the Movement and the way things were. Mr. Dozier discusses his thoughts on the Movement and his experience with the Klan and police brutality in Grenada, Mississippi. Death Squad ; Marching ; Protests African Americans--Religion ; Civil rights demonstrations--United States ; Civil rights movement ; Greenville (Miss.) ; Grenada (Miss.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Police brutality--United States ; Voter registration--United States 1500 Looking Back on the Movement What about looking at the Movement then and looking at it now, do you think that there are any things that should have been done differently? Mr. Dozier discusses his thoughts on how the Movement was carried out and comments on the Movement as it was occurring in the 1990s. Andy Young ; Operation Bread Basket ; PUSH King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 1729 Sharing Memories from the Movement with Family Members What about memorabilia or anything you had left from he days of sitting at the counter or coming to Birmingham or in Montgomery, do you have any mementos, and papers or objects that you've kept all these years? Mr. Dozier discusses sharing memories from his time in the Movement with family members. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Montgomery (Ala.) 1828 Final Comments on the Movement, Experience in Grenada, Miss., and Closing of the Interview Is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wanted to share before we close out? Mr. Dozier gives his final comments on the Movement and closes the interview with some advice for the younger generations. Education ; Parchment Prison ; State Troopers Civil rights movement ; Grenada (Miss.) ; Mississippi State Penitentiary ; Police brutality--United States ; Voter registration--United States Oral History Herman Dozier discusses how refusing to move from a lunch counter in Greensboro, NC lead him to devote his life to the Movement. He worked with SCLC and demonstrated all around the South. MYLES: This is an interview with Mr. Herman Dozier for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Binnie Myles. We are at Miles College and today is April 16, 1996 at 2:00 p.m. Mr. Dozier, did you grow up in Birmingham? DOZIER: Yes, I did. MYLES: Where were you born in Alabama? DOZIER: I was born in Pratt City at the hospital there on the Southside. MYLES: How long did you live in the Pratt City area? DOZIER: From the time I was born until, I think I was the age of five. MYLES: And then you moved? DOZIER: I moved with my mother to the Smithfield area. MYLES: Where did you go to school as a youngster? Do you remember any of your situations during school time? DOZIER: Yes, I went to South Pratt. When we moved to Smithfield I started going to Lincoln Elementary under Professor R. C. Johnson. I remember Lincoln very well because he used to have us bring bricks to school. MYLES: Bricks? DOZIER: Yes, the students had to help build the walkway. The kids would bring a brick to school every day. And, I would also at Carrie Tuggles up under Professor Winston. MYLES: When you brought the bricks to school at Lincoln, did the older men put the walkway in or were the children allowed to assist? DOZIER: No. The adults built it. But it was a project that Professor Johnson wanted the kids to do to say &quot ; I helped. I did this.&quot ; I noticed, I&#039 ; ve been back to visit and the sidewalks are still there. MYLES: Is your brick still there? DOZIER: I hope so. MYLES: You are a part of history then. Then you went to Tuggle? DOZIER: Yes. MYLES: How was Tuggle for you? DOZIER: It was okay in a way. But, like now, you can&#039 ; t whip the kids in school. Wimp, we called him Wimp. He had a way of whipping us when we do wrong. MYLES: Was that the principal or the teacher? DOZIER: Yes the principal. MYLES: What was his name? DOZIER: Professor Winston. He would line you up and he would go down the line with a little strap and I used to hate that. So, I didn&#039 ; t care too much for Tuggle. MYLES: So, does that mean you were a very active little boy? DOZIER: Yes, as all kids are, but I think I was a little more than some of them. MYLES: And, then you left Tuggle, where did you go then? DOZIER: When I left Tuggle, I went to Parker High. Well, from Parker Annex and, then from the Annex to the main building. MYLES: Do you have any recollections of things that happened while you were at Parker? Of course, that was during segregation. DOZIER: Oh, yes. I guess I was more active in the athletic field. I was a track runner and also a football player for Parker. MYLES: What about when you would play ball and football and, I guess the games were at Legion Field? DOZIER: Yes. MYLES: What about segregation then? Did you notice anything any different -- a lot of things that were different as it relates to playing ball and the crowds and traveling back and forth? DOZIER: Well, for one thing I noticed we could only go to Legion Field at certain times. When the Whites are using the field, Blacks could go, but they would have to sit way up top. You couldn&#039 ; t sit down at the bottom where you could really see anything. They would let you come in and you would have to stay there until you were ready to leave. The Whites would go out one way and you would go out the other. MYLES: Why do you think they did it that way? DOZIER: You know, I used to wonder about that and I asked my parents about it. My grandmother, whom I love very dearly, she told me this is something that the White man feels that he is inferior. MYLES: That the Black male was inferior? DOZIER: That the Black man was inferior compared to him, yet and still Blacks had to go into the Whites home and work for little or nothing. I couldn&#039 ; t understand all this until I grew up. I grew up into this system where you could lay down at night and wake up and hear a bomb go off. Someone&#039 ; s home is blown up. Some Black person&#039 ; s home. I never had the opportunity to see the Klan&#039 ; s in their sheets until I was older. MYLES: Let&#039 ; s go back to -- we were talking about parents working for the White man or White families. You were telling me that your mother worked in downtown Birmingham. DOZIER: Right. MYLES: What did she do? DOZIER: She was an elevator operator at the Brown-Marx Building. MYLES: Did she ever tell you any of the stories or situations that would happen or conversations that people would have when they would get on the elevator? Because, of course, her being an elevator operator, they probably thought that she didn&#039 ; t count because she was a Black woman. DOZIER: I don&#039 ; t know. My mother was a very strong Black woman and she never tried to discuss anything to me unless someone would ask. Other than that she very seldom would discuss it. But, she always told me whatever I do, to hold my head up. That I am somebody. I loved her for that. No matter what I did, she still loved me. She worked hard, I&#039 ; ll grant you that. She worked very hard in order to put me in school and take care of me because my father and my mother wasn&#039 ; t together, so I was reared by my mother for a while. And, then I went to stay with my father later on in years. MYLES: So, did you ever overhear any conversations when you used to go to the Brown-Marx Building if you went to the work with your mom or went to visit her down there -- conversations that some of the White passengers on the elevator would have. DOZIER: I can recall one year my mother came home and she was very upset. I asked her about it. She was saying about how Whites were calling the other Blacks &quot ; Niggers&quot ; and this kind of upset her very much. I was wondering why. She said, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t worry. Just remember they will call you these names. That don&#039 ; t mean you have to be what they call you.&quot ; I said, &quot ; What is the word &#039 ; Nigger&#039 ; &quot ; , because I wanted to know. MYLES: What age were you then? DOZIER: I think I was around 8 or 9. MYLES: And you didn&#039 ; t know what that word meant? DOZIER: I knew what they would call me, but I didn&#039 ; t know what it really meant and why. She explained it to me. MYLES: What did she say? DOZIER: That when they first brought us from Africa as slaves that had found the Blacks. There is a river that runs through Africa, called the Nile. And, at that time the White man couldn&#039 ; t say &#039 ; Nigger&#039 ; he said, &#039 ; the Niger&#039 ; . And, it went from &#039 ; Niger&#039 ; to &#039 ; Nigger&#039 ; . And, these things she taught me and as I grew up, then I started reading books, because my aunt, who was a school teacher used to bring me books and she would explain different things about it. And, this is why, as I grew up, then I knew who I was, even until today. MYLES: What about the community where you lived, where you lived in Smithfield -- do you recall anything about the Movement or things that happened in the neighborhood, the NAACP or SCLC or church gatherings or hearing adults talk about anything? DOZIER: In coming up at that time, the SCLC was not in the focus at all. In the neighborhood that I grew up in, the Whites would say a second-class neighborhood, but it was a lot of doctors and teachers, principals all in that area. MYLES: But for the African-American community that would have been a very affluent community? DOZIER: Oh, yes. I recall Dr. Plump, Dr. Belgium, Professor Johnson who lived directly across in front of us. A lot of schoolteachers. My aunt, who taught school and her husband was a principal. So, I grew up in a pretty tight family. MYLES: Do you recall any meetings or NAACP gatherings in the community where those people in the Movement? DOZIER: Well, if they had it, I didn&#039 ; t know anything about it at that time. MYLES: When you grew up and as you finished high school, did you continue on and go to college or the military? Did you go to work then? DOZIER: When I come out of high school, I was already involved in the Civil Rights Movement at the time because I had taken a trip to Chicago with my cousin. And, on my way back, instead of coming back to Birmingham, I was going to meet a friend of mine in North Carolina, which was Greensboro. That&#039 ; s where they had the sit-in at the lunch counter and I happen to be there in the restaurant on that particular day. I was sitting there also, when they arrested everybody that was sitting there. They had asked everybody to move and the young college kids didn&#039 ; t move, so I didn&#039 ; t move either. MYLES: So you were sitting at the counter also? DOZIER: I was sitting at the counter, so when I went to jail with them just as well. When I got out, I left and went back to Birmingham. I was telling my mom what had happened. MYLES: How was that day for you, sitting at that counter? Were you afraid when they took you to jail? Share with us what that was like. DOZIER: It was sort of a frightening thing because I had never been involved in anything like this. The first thing they came and told us was &quot ; Nigger, didn&#039 ; t the White woman tell you to get up?&quot ; Well, I didn&#039 ; t say anything, but the young man who spoke said, &quot ; Well, I paid my money and I think if I pay my money, I&#039 ; m able to sit anywhere that I pay my money. She took my money.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Yeah, she may have taken your money, but that didn&#039 ; t mean for you to sit here.&quot ; And, he asked us to leave so no one moved, so they snatched us off the seat and instead of walking us, they drug us out the door. What we called going limp and, they carried us to the jail house there in Greensboro, North Carolina until one of the NAACP lawyers got us out. MYLES: So was it overnight or several hours? DOZIER: No. I think I stayed in there 1 or 2 nights, if I can recall. MYLES: Were you frightened while you were in there? DOZIER: Oh, yes. MYLES: What kind of treatment did you get? DOZIER: I knew what the White man was doing to the Blacks at that time. I had heard so much about Blacks, in North Carolina and what had happened. Sure, I was afraid. I would be a fool if I said I wasn&#039 ; t. MYLES: So, when you got out, what happened then? DOZIER: Well, when I got out, I returned to Birmingham. But, when I returned to Birmingham, Birmingham was heated up. When I said &#039 ; heated up&#039 ; with Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth. He was trying to integrate Phillips High School with his kids. So, I joined in with Fred and we walked to Phillips High School, although we had rocks thrown at us and Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth was beaten, I saw him beaten merciful with chains, kicked and drug. But, that didn&#039 ; t stop him because, I have to give him credit, the man had guts. He was determined to not let them turn him around. He continued to go until they accepted his kids into the school. MYLES: What age were you about that time? DOZIER: I think I was about 17. MYLES: So, is that how you initially got started with the Movement, you were in Carolina and just happened to be sitting at the counter? DOZIER: That, and when I came back to Birmingham Fred had his thing going. Well, I have a cousin that lives in Montgomery. Montgomery had the bus boycott going on. I, and some more friends of mine went to Montgomery to lend a hand any way we could. That&#039 ; s when we started doing the pooling, hauling people from one place to another because that&#039 ; s when I first heard Dr. King speak. I didn&#039 ; t know who Dr. King was and that&#039 ; s when I first heard him speak. I said to myself that this man here is a great man. Now, I don&#039 ; t know why I said it, but I did. And, I listened very carefully to what he was saying when he was telling the people not to ride the buses. If you have to work, walk or carpool. Well, at that time the police in Montgomery started stopping every car that had Blacks in it hauling them home, harassing them. And, so, that didn&#039 ; t stop them because they said if we can&#039 ; t ride, we&#039 ; ll walk. But, a lot of the elderly guys there continued to carry people to and from in their cars. So, I left after that and went back to Birmingham and I stayed in Birmingham for a while until the bus boycott was over. Now, once that was over, there was a gentlemen from SCLC, Dr. Randolph Blackwell, he&#039 ; s dead now. He was one of Dr. King&#039 ; s advisors. He and I were talking and he asked me how would I like to join the group. At first, I really didn&#039 ; t think anything about it, in that sense. So, he kept talking to me. And, finally I said okay. And, the first place that he sent me was to Coretta King&#039 ; s home town in Marion. That&#039 ; s where I started on the voter registration drive. MYLES: You said that you had heard Dr. King speak and you knew then that he was a wonderful person. What was his speech like? What was he talking about? DOZIER: It was just a speech that I had never heard before. The tone of his speaking sort of goes through you. It&#039 ; s the way that he was speaking. I had listened to a lot of ministers speak, but never like this. I don&#039 ; t know, the man had something that could go through you. Either it would make you move or you would have to leave. MYLES: So, what did your mom think about all this involvement? DOZIER: I didn&#039 ; t let my mother know. When my mother found out about that, I had been involved in the Movement for five years. MYLES: How did she not know? I mean if you were going to meetings, doing different things. DOZIER: When they sent me to Marion, my mother didn&#039 ; t know I was going. I just told her that I was getting ready to leave town. And, I went to Marion. When she saw me again, I told her because I had on a uniform that one of the guys in the Movement had made for SCLC. A young man by the name of R. B. Cottonreader. He had made a jean outfit with a hand on the pocket, white and black. So, I had the outfit on when I came home. My mother thought I was in the Air Force because it was blue. When I finally explained to her, she said, &quot ; Lord, my son has gone crazy.&quot ; But, I explained to her what was going on and, I think going to Marion really opened my eyes because I saw things in Marion that I had never seen before in my life. MYLES: Tell us about some of the things that you saw in Marion. DOZIER: Well, number one, where I was staying. The lady was paying a large sum of money for a little shack that she was staying in. Where you could look through the roof and see the sun or see the moon at night when you were lying down. And, it really hurt my heart to see this. And, as I went through Marion and saw how a lot of Blacks were living, all of them weren&#039 ; t living the same, but yet and still to see those who were really in poverty, that changed my whole life all the way around. And, from then, I gave my life to the Movement. MYLES: Did it make you feel sad and angry and hurt and helpless and all those emotions? DOZIER: Yes. That&#039 ; s why I worked as hard as I did to try to get our Blacks registered to vote. We brought in the federal registrars to Marion and we started registering the Blacks by the hundreds. MYLES: What reason do you think some African-Americans give for either, well, definitely not being a registered voter and, then those that are registered to vote, that don&#039 ; t vote? DOZIER: Wait a minute. Repeat that again now? MYLES: What do you think about people that are registered to vote and they don&#039 ; t vote? And, then African-Americans who are not registered to vote. Do you think that&#039 ; s okay or do you think that we all should be registered voters and use the power of vote to make a difference in things getting better? DOZIER: I wonder about some that is registered and don&#039 ; t vote. And, I worry about the ones who have not registered. And, as far as power is concerned. Yes, the voting rights has a lot of power because I talk with people that haven&#039 ; t registered. I&#039 ; ve had people to tell me, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m not going to register.&quot ; And, I said, &quot ; Why?&quot ; They said, &quot ; Because I don&#039 ; t see anything I&#039 ; m going to get out of it.&quot ; I said, &quot ; That&#039 ; s the problem right there.&quot ; You see, I look at it this way. If you don&#039 ; t register, then you have no voice. But, if you register, then you have a voice to speak and say who you want to do this and who you don&#039 ; t want. You have that power. That&#039 ; s what it&#039 ; s about. Because we have fought so long for our Blacks to become registered. But yet and still there are some that are too lazy and to trifling to get up and go where it only takes a few minutes. In and out. We go in department stores and stay all day shopping for this White man&#039 ; s good, but yet and still we can&#039 ; t go for two minutes to the polling place. It&#039 ; s something wrong. But, yet and still, those who don&#039 ; t vote, whatever comes along, any of the goodies, they are the first ones that got their hand out. MYLES: When you were growing up and you look back at the Movement and the way things were. You talked about the Klan just a little bit, but do you look back at some of the things that you went through and say, &quot ; Boy, I don&#039 ; t know how I did that.&quot ; And, share with us the one situation that you mentioned about getting your leg broken. DOZIER: You know, I look back at that quite a bit. A lot of them say you shouldn&#039 ; t look back. But, sometime I look back in order for me to realize where I&#039 ; m going. And, looking back and seeing what the situation is in the 90s, I wonder was it worth what we were doing compared to what&#039 ; s going on now. And, right at this moment, we can&#039 ; t put this on the Klan. We can&#039 ; t put it on nobody but ourselves. You see, when they took religion out of the schools, then they started hurting the Blacks. MYLES: You think religion kept us together? DOZIER: Religion kept us together. That kept our families together down through the years. This is what kept us together -- the churches that we have throughout this country where the Black religions did this on their own. They didn&#039 ; t ask the White man for nothing. They did it. Our Black colleges. This is why we were out there struggling in order for the young child to be able to go to school so he can have an education and he can become anybody that he or she wants to be. There&#039 ; s nothing out there that we can&#039 ; t be. MYLES: What about the Klan and your involvement when you got your leg broken. DOZIER: Oh, boy. What can you say about the Klan that one doesn&#039 ; t know about. I&#039 ; ve had a bad experience with the Klan, that&#039 ; s true. You see my leg was broken by the Klan where they put my leg on a curb and had one of the state troopers jumped upon my leg and crushed it. MYLES: What age were you when that happened? DOZIER: I was in my 20s. MYLES: What reasoning did they give for doing that? DOZIER: Demonstration. They were saying that we were agitators. We were in Grenada doing voter registration drive in Grenada, Mississippi with Dr. King. In fact, we were marching from Memphis, Tennessee. On the James Meredith. You see James Meredith was shot on Highway 51. SCLC, at that time, was about to fold, but behind the shooting of James Meredith, that brought SCLC back together. And, so, Dr. King sent for the marchers to come from Memphis. Well, I was in a group that we called the &quot ; Death Squad.&quot ; It was 15 of us. We were the first 15 to go in any town before anybody get there. MYLES: And you just went into kind of just see how things were? DOZIER: Right. But when we marched down Highway 51, we went through a little town Grenada. Well, in Grenada Dr. King spoke. This is the first time I saw a Black woman, she said that she didn&#039 ; t know how old she was. Dr. King stood on a statute downtown in the park and the lady said, &quot ; I been here all my life and I don&#039 ; t know how old I am.&quot ; She said, &quot ; But, they say I&#039 ; m ??&quot ; and she called her number. She said, &quot ; But that&#039 ; s the first time I ever seen a Black man touch that statue.&quot ; MYLES: Really. DOZIER: And, Dr. King stood on the statue and preached. Now this was a very scary night for me because we all stood around Dr. King on the statue also. And, the Whites had gathered by the thousands. MYLES: And you didn&#039 ; t know if something was going to happen? DOZIER: That&#039 ; s right. And, Dr. King, when we left Grenada, we went to a little place called Greenville, Mississippi. That&#039 ; s where the man that killed Medgar Evers was from, and he was there that night when Stokely Carmichael spoke. He and Stokely had a fight. They locked Stokely up. But, Dr. King said that &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to send some back to Grenada.&quot ; He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to let Grenada be the home base.&quot ; MYLES: What about looking at the Movement then and looking at it now, do you think that are any things that should have been done differently? Or, did everything go fine? DOZIER: At the time, everything -- the Blacks were showing the power during that time. And, to look at it now, we have forgotten from which we came because so many have the jobs now, sitting behind the desks, in an air-conditioned building, soft cushioned seats. We have forgotten how we got there and what it took to get there. MYLES: So you don&#039 ; t think people are taking (Inaudible). DOZIER: They are not taking it (Inaudible). Because right now, there could be someone out there that need help. We are so big now that we ride in our cars and we will pass all by that person who really need help, because we don&#039 ; t want to be seen with that person. MYLES: What about today with the Movement? Do you think anything should be done different? DOZIER: Yes, I do. MYLES: What? DOZIER: We need a true leader because if we don&#039 ; t our Black sisters and brothers are going further back than they have ever been in history. MYLES: Do you have any idea of who that person could be, in your own opinion? DOZIER: No. MYLES: Is it something that you would like to tackle for yourself? DOZIER: I am a spokesman for the Movement in my own way. But to tackle what Dr. King did, I don&#039 ; t think that I could fill his shoes. It takes a mighty, mighty strong man to fill his shoes. From what I have seen that man do, although in the Movement we did the same thing in a sense, he just did a little more. As we say, he was another black Moses. They don&#039 ; t come too often. Right now, we have a bickering amongst ourselves. MYLES: Do you think that&#039 ; s what keeps us... DOZIER: This is what&#039 ; s keeping us divided right now because nobody knows who they want to look up to because we have gone too many separate ways. Before Dr. King was killed, I was at a meeting once and everybody was saying that they would never be involved in certain things like going to Washington and working. And, who was the first one -- Andy Young. He became one of the ambassadors. MYLES: But others don&#039 ; t feel that way? DOZIER: No. And, so Jesse went his way with Operation Bread Basket, which he went from there to PUSH. Hosea Williams going his separate way. Abernathy is gone. MYLES: So it&#039 ; s just so divisive? DOZIER: It gets out there. MYLES: Do you think it will have to be a new person altogether? DOZIER: It got to be a whole new structure of SCLC in order to bring it back because right now we have organizations all over the United States and nobody is doing nothing. MYLES: What about memorabilia or anything that you had left from the days of sitting at the counter or coming to Birmingham or in Montgomery, do you have any mementos, any papers or objects that you&#039 ; ve kept all these years? DOZIER: I had, my mother was keeping them for me, but after the home was blown up, a lot of my stuff was misplaced. In fact, I was talking to my mother about it the other night because she was at church when the house blew up and everything was destroyed. So, the only thing I have left now, a friend of mine has a book with a picture of me in it. That&#039 ; s all. MYLES: But you have the memories? DOZIER: I have the memories in here. MYLES: And you shared that with your children? DOZIER: Yes. MYLES: Can they believe? DOZIER: Well, at first a lot of them didn&#039 ; t want to believe that I was working for Dr. King. They were very curious. But, after talking with them, and, then some saw me on TV. They said, &quot ; I saw you on TV or I saw you in Dr. King&#039 ; s march.&quot ; By that, they started drawing closer to me. But, my own kids I have taught them from babies up what was really like for the struggle and what we had to do in order to make it better for them and I like I tell my daughter, because I have all girls. I tell my daughter to stand up, be a woman, have a strong mind and a will because you can do anything that you want to do. MYLES: And you have the world to do it? DOZIER: That&#039 ; s right. MYLES: Is there anything that I didn&#039 ; t ask you that you wanted to share before we close out? DOZIER: Well, I guess, it&#039 ; s so many things that I could go on and on with the Movement. I realize I lost a lot of my friends that was in the Movement -- they&#039 ; ve gone on. I could name them. Leon Hall, Lester Hankerson these people were real close to me. Lester was killed. Leon died. Lester was the young man in Grenada where the state troopers beat Lester unmerciful, broke his arm, cracked his skull and they put us all in jail in Grenada and blood was running out of his body like wild fire. We tried to talk to the sheriff and everything to let us get out. And, I told the sheriff, I said, &quot ; If you just let us out, we will leave Mississippi and never come back.&quot ; MYLES: But they wouldn&#039 ; t do it? DOZIER: They wouldn&#039 ; t do it, but that wasn&#039 ; t the point. All we wanted to do was get Lester out of the jail. We knew that we weren&#039 ; t going to leave Mississippi because we were there and we had a job to do. But, they refused to let us out. They carried us all to Parchment Prison. They put each one of us in a car a piece and they took all the kids that were with us and put them on a cattle truck with all the manure and stuff in the truck. They just threw them in there like cattle and they carried them to Parchment. We stayed there until Washington sent orders for them to turn us loose. Now, that was a moment that I never will forget because it was a sad moment, because a lot of people got hurt. MYLES: What would you say, in closing, to youngsters today about not just voting, but being involved and being involved in a positive way? DOZIER: What I want to say to a lot of young people, which I try to do everyday is to tell them to stay in school and get an education. Because standing on the corner will not get them but two things: jail or hell. This is why I begged them to stay in school because the opportunity is there. If you don&#039 ; t want the teacher to teach you, then you need to leave the school because this is what they are there for -- to teach you so you can learn. It&#039 ; s up to you, whether you want to learn. There is no excuse. And, I say to all my Black sisters and brothers, please stay off the corners, stay in school, mind your parents and you&#039 ; ll have a better life. MYLES: Well, we certainly thank you for coming out and sharing with us today, all this great information. DOZIER: Thank you very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=HDozier1996.xml HDozier1996.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herman Dozier Description An account of the resource Herman Dozier discusses how refusing to move from a lunch counter in Greensboro, NC lead him to devote his life to the Movement. He worked with SCLC and demonstrated all around the South. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19960416D Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Police brutality--United States Southern Christian Leadership Conference Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996-04-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/9057bece30e2502c0956509c58d3e30c.png 83353b85683d8032f4df03a742ba7d9f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Nettie Flemmon OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=NFlemmon1996.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 Wren, Tony Voter registration--United States OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 June 5, 1996 Nettie Flemmon 19960605F 0:56:28 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 Wren, Tony Voter registration--United States Nettie Flemmon Horace Huntley Video 1:|22(10)|39(11)|57(9)|77(8)|101(5)|112(10)|133(7)|144(8)|157(6)|170(1)|187(4)|207(4)|226(6)|237(14)|252(5)|268(2)|288(2)|306(7)|318(1)|329(16)|343(7)|357(12)|374(2)|383(10)|404(10)|420(11)|441(5)|449(18)|475(17)|490(10)|505(13)|517(1)|535(9)|548(4)|566(16)|577(15)|599(9)|615(6)|621(14)|634(5)|655(5)|662(4)|685(1)|703(11)|720(8)|736(7)|750(12)|767(6)|786(1)|800(8)|812(6)|826(13)|845(4)|858(7)|866(8)|879(12) 0 https://youtu.be/n3-ZSd1pm_g YouTube video English 0 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Nettie Flemmon for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's oral history project. I'm Dr. Horace Huntley we're presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 41 Background and Family Life Where were you born? Flemmon discusses where she was raised in Birmingham and how her mom moved up north when she was a teenager. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Michigan African Americans--Michigan--Detroit 295 Growing Up in Birmingham in the 1920s Is that right? So, tell me what it was like growing up in Birmingham in the 1920s. Flemmon recalls how rough it was living in Birmingham in the 20s ; but despite that, her and her husband decided to raise their family in Birmingham. 1920s ; Birmingham (Ala.) Collegeville (Ala.) ; Sloss Furnace Company ; Titusville (Ala.) 490 Memories of the Great Depression Do you remember the Great Depression? Flemmon recalls how her and her mother did not experience too much hardship during the depression because of her mother's job. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Hoover, Herbert C. Domestic work ; Great Depression 620 Her and Her Husband's Work Life And you...when you got out of school and got married what did your husband do? What kind of work did he do? Flemmon talks about how her husband was self-employed and how all of the neighbors looked out for each other. Birmingham (Ala.) ; United States Navy Domestic work 868 Status Quo in Birmingham Before the Movement Well, before the movement got started what was Birmingham like? Flemmon discusses segregation in Birmingham before the movement and how blacks were treated by the police. Blacks--Segregation ; Bull Conner Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States 1168 Personal Involvement with the Movement Now when the movement started how did you get involved with the movement? Flemmons recalls her involvement with mass demonstrations and how she hauled people from demonstration to demonstration. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Civil rights movement ; Mass demonstrations 1566 63 Day Casket March with Tony Wren One time, when we were marching with Tony Wren, 63 days I think we were marching with a casket. Flemmon talks about when she marched around Birmingham with the casket and how people treated her at the demonstration. Miles College ; Wren, Tony Birmingham (Ala.) 1809 Efforts to Recruit Children for the Movement Were there efforts, did you participate in any of the efforts to recruit children from the schools? Flemmon recalls how they went to high schools with the help of SCLC to recruit children for the movement. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference Civil rights movement ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 1994 Discussions of the Movement with Her Family What were the discussions like at home about the movement, since you and your children and husband were involved? Did you ever talk about the movement at home? Flemmon talks about how her whole family was supportive of the movement. Birmingham (Ala.) Civil rights movement 2054 Personal Encounters with the Police and Meeting Hubert Humphrey I know some people that did that they were sometimes approached by policemen. Flemmon recalls her experience with the police while she was heading to the airport to meet Vice President Hubert Humphrey. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States Humphrey, Hubert H. (Hubert Horatio), 1911-1978 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 2251 Recollection of an Accidental Shooting of a Black Man and Its Impact What is the most important issue of the time that you remember, like any events that took place that stand out in your mind about your participation and your involvement in the movement? Flemmon recalls a black man being shot by a white man, and because of this, more people became involved in the movement. Birmingham (Ala.) ; St. James Baptist Church Racism--United States 2552 Becoming a Registered Voter Were you a registered voter? Flemmon recalls how local government workers targeted Black people and made it hard for them to become registered voters. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Racial discrimination Voter registration--United States 2623 Remembrance of the March on Washington, Freedom Riders, and the 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing Did you participate in any other demonstrations outside of Birmingham? Flemmons recalls where she was during some of the major events in the Movement. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Freedom Rides, 1961 ; March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 2775 Importance of the Movement in Birmingham So, what did you think was the significance, how important was what was happening with the movement for Birmingham? How important was the movement? Flemmon recalls how the movement brought people closer together and the people united for a common cause. Birmingham (Ala.) ; New Pilgrim Baptist Church Civil rights movement 2905 Churches in Birmingham Involved in the Movement I know New Pilgrim was ministered and a lot of people were involved. Was Tabernacle involved in the movement, was the pastor? Flemmon recalls how several of the churches in Birmingham attended the demonstrations and supported the movement. New Pilgrim Baptist Church ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) 3088 Supporting the Movement Through Different Means Is there anything else that we have not talked about, that you would like to share with us that relates to the movement? Flemmon discusses how people contributed to the movement in different ways but every way mattered. Birmingham (Ala.) Civil rights movement 3351 Conclusion of Interview Mrs. Flemmon, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and talk with us and you've been quite helpful. Interview is concluded. Oral History Nettie Flemmon discusses devoting her life to the Movement in every way. She, her husband and her children coordinated, assisted and demonstrated all around the South, including two of her children attending the March on Washington. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Nettie Flemmon for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s oral history project. I&#039 ; m Dr. Horace Huntley we&#039 ; re presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is June 5, 1996 at 2:00p.m. Ok, would you state your name and your birth date. FLEMMON: My name is Nettie Flemmon, oh, you mean my married name? HUNTLEY: Yes ma&#039 ; am. FLEMMON: My birth date is August 4, 1918. HUNTLEY: Where were you born? FLEMMON: In Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Where were your parents from? FLEMMON: From Wilcox County. HUNTLEY: Wilcox County? FLEMMON: That&#039 ; s where they were born. Eventually their brother brought them here to Birmingham and they were reared here in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Oh, they were reared here in Birmingham? FLEMMON: They were young children, the oldest brother taken over as a father for them after the death of their daddy and mother. The daddy would tell the oldest son to see after the children after their death. And he did that, my uncle did that and raised his two brothers and two sisters. HUNTLEY: So, then your mother was small, so, she really was like she was from Birmingham. FLEMMON: Yes, she was small, they were small children when their parents died. HUNTLEY: Was your father also from Birmingham? FLEMMON: No, my father was raised in Wilcox County, but see I didn&#039 ; t never know my father till I got 21 years old. I was 21 years old when I seen my father and I had four girls. HUNTLEY: Is that right? Did he stay in Wilcox County? FLEMMON: No, he left when he was a young man and came to Birmingham. You know how boys in the country will leave and come to see people they know in town and stay awhile and then finally he left and went up to Michigan. HUNTLEY: Oh, ok, so he left Birmingham and went to Michigan. FLEMMON: That&#039 ; s right and that&#039 ; s were they resided the rest of their life, in Detroit, in Muskego. HUNTLEY: But your mother stayed here? FLEMMON: My mother remained here until a later year then she went to Detroit to find her brother and that&#039 ; s where she decided to stay in Detroit after she met her brother. She lived there for 28, she worked there for at the [inaudible] laundry for 28 years. HUNTLEY: In Detroit? FLEMMON: Yeah, and then she stayed there for 32 years she lived till death came and took her away. In 1981, my mother died. HUNTLEY: Oh, ok, and she died in Detroit? FLEMMON: Yes. HUNTLEY: You were grown when she left her going to Detroit. FLEMMON: Oh, yeah, I had my family. I was married. I married at the age of 15. Then I was a mother of 13 living children beside I had a still born. Then I had a small miscarriage, that would have been 15 children. I raised 13 children. HUNTLEY: You raised 13 children. How many boys and how many girls? FLEMMON: I had, um, it was 8 boys and 7 girls, but the still born, you know. HUNTLEY: You now were raised up on the north side or the south side? FLEMMON: I was raised up over on the north side. HUNTLEY: When you were born, you were born on the south side? FLEMMON: I was born on the southside, but they moved from over there and moved back over on the north side. I recall back in the 20s is when they moved back over on the north side. HUNTLEY: So, that was before you started school then. FLEMMON: Yeah, I was a little girl at that time. HUNTLEY: What school did you go to? FLEMMON: Thomas, I got to the 8th grade. Then me and my husband married young. HUNTLEY: Was he at Thomas too? FLEMMON: Yeah, we all attended Thomas school. HUNTLEY: Is that right? So, tell me what it was like growing up in Birmingham in the 1920s. FLEMMON: Well, it was pretty rough. It wasn&#039 ; t no roads then, but we made it. We made it. You know the old Sloss Furnace, lots of men came from down home and got jobs over there at the Sloss France and worked over there. They worked them pipe shops. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your mother do? FLEMMON: My mother was a domestic worker. She worked at the laundry, she worked at the Number Eight Bottling Company a long time ago. Just from one job to another. Then she decided to leave Birmingham and go north. Most of the colored people would do better up north, they would leave and go north, to Chicago, Detroit, and Cleveland. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide not to go up or did you ever go north to live? FLEMMON: To live? No, we just remained here. This was our home and we had a lot of children, we couldn&#039 ; t go. Where could we go with all them children? People didn&#039 ; t have no room for us. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s what kept you from going cause you had... FLEMMON: I was confined with my family and I had to stay with my family. HUNTLEY: Right. So, if you didn&#039 ; t have any children or that many children... FLEMMON: Probably I may have left, my husband probably would have to, but after we got stuck here with a family we decided to make Alabama our home. HUNTLEY: What community did you raise your children in? FLEMMON: Well, I raised them right around ordinary people. In the community over there. HUNTLEY: Was it Collegeville? FLEMMON: No, just over here. Most of them were born on the north side where I was raised at until we moved in 1949. We moved to Titusville, out there at 106 and my husband had a house built. The man drawed the plans up and made the house too small. So we had to get another house out there in Collegeville. They were raised over there in Collegeville, in 1951 we moved, October 10th, out there in Collegeville. So we raised them up there. They attended school there at Hudson School and Carver High School. Some went over to...the chose the high school they wanted to go, so they went to the other [inaudible]. They just chose the school they wanted to go to. HUNTLEY: Do you remember the Depression? FLEMMON: Why sure, 1928, &#039 ; 29,&#039 ; 30, and &#039 ; 31. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about it? FLEMMON: I don&#039 ; t remember it was a Great Depression at that time. People was..it was a depression all over the world. Hoover was the President and it was tough. They had soup lines and they had milk, white milk was given to poor people, milk for their children to feed the children. Up there on 26th Street and 2nd Avenue, the White Dairy was up there. Bessie Roth&#039 ; s Bakery would give the poor people bread. HUNTLEY: Your family was a large family, no, you were an only child. FLEMMON: I was an only child. My mother worked and mostly I worked with my mother in the White folks house. After I got out of school, I had to go help my momma go set the table and help her prepare their food, breakfast and supper for the evening you know. HUNTLEY: How did the depression affect you and your mother, your family? FLEMMON: Well, my mother worked all the time and it really didn&#039 ; t strike us as hard as it did lots of people. My mother was a smart woman and she believed in work and she worked and made an honest living. We never had to get on no kind of help. HUNTLEY: She was always able to find a job. FLEMMON: My mother was always able to find a job and she always kept a job. She would work. HUNTLEY: And you... when you got out of school and got married what did your husband do? What kind of work did he do? FLEMMON: He went into business. He was working with a colored man at the time then. HUNTLEY: Doing what? FLEMMON: He was selling, the colored man, was selling coal and ice. An old man, they called him Bear John on 28th Street and 5th Avenue, he had a place there, a colored man. My husband started working young as a boy working for him. He went to school and he worked in the evening for this fellow and sold coal for him on a wagon and sold ice until he got able enough to get him a truck on his own and then he started business for himself. HUNTLEY: Is that right? That&#039 ; s what he did from then on. FLEMMON: From then on that&#039 ; s what he did. Raised his children from his own self-employed, he was self-employed. My husband was a very industrial man and he had a business mind about him. You know what I mean? HUNTLEY: Right. FLEMMON: After they put him in the army he still came back to that same job. Worked a little while at the Turner Station when he came back from the army. HUNTLEY: Did he go overseas? FLEMMON: Oh yeah. Stayed over there two years. South Pacific, that&#039 ; s where they were stationed. HUNTLEY: Was he in the army or the navy? FLEMMON: He was in the navy. HUNTLEY: My father was in the navy. FLEMMON: I had two boys that were in the navy and I had two boys that were in the army, but they all got honorable discharged. My husband just recently died February 14th this year. HUNTLEY: You then? FLEMMON: I was a housewife, I took care of the children and I seen after them. I worked sometime, part-time, at that time you could go and leave the children and they were in safe hands, but now it&#039 ; s a different time we&#039 ; re living in. HUNTLEY: You can&#039 ; t do that anymore. FLEMMON: No, people aren&#039 ; t as close. The mother was more dedicated to the children&#039 ; s safety than they are today. We took care of our neighbors children. We seen after them, if they tell the children and leave them in our hands. We would keep the other children just like they were our own children. They would mind us and obey us while their parents were away. We were poor people and we had to work and they had to work, but they left their children in protected hands that their children would be safe when they got back off their job, cause when they would go to work at 6 in the morning and would get off late in the evening, and stayed there all day. They had to take care of other people&#039 ; s children and they couldn&#039 ; t come home until a certain time until the people returned from work to see about their children. Sometime that would be dusk to dark. You know all day long. Some of them would work there and come home during the day and go back at a certain time between 1 and 2 o&#039 ; clock in the day to be there at their house to prepare their supper. You know. HUNTLEY: So, the children were always in safe hands, cause the neighbors would help. FLEMMON: That&#039 ; s right. We looked out for our neighbors. We were concerned about other folks children. They had mother&#039 ; s who had children, they would be mother&#039 ; s for other peoples children as well as theirs. We were lovely people, we watched and seen after your children. HUNTLEY: Well, before the movement got started what was Birmingham like? FLEMMON: Well, it was real. You know how it was... it was [inaudible], segregated, you know all of it. The Black man had a hard way to go. It was kind of bad for Black folks. When White people had more freedom than we did, you know we didn&#039 ; t have no freedom. The only freedom we had, we&#039 ; d go to church come back home sit in the yard or the front porch. HUNTLEY: Were there any incidents that you remember that happened in your family that was related to the way the status quo in Birmingham treated black people? Were there ever any times when policemen, that your family or people that you knew were involved with the police at all? FLEMMON: Police officers? HUNTLEY: Yeah. FLEMMON: No, lots of people had trouble, but seemingly though we didn&#039 ; t have no, we always tried to live by the law and obey the law. You know how it was, the White people had the privilege, beating up colored people and doing what they wanted to do to them. I remember when I was quite young a lady her husband was beat up over there in [inaudible] by some White people and killed, you know shot and killed a man. HUNTLEY: Who shot and killed a man? FLEMMON: Some White people went there and shot him one day in the morning they told me and killed him, Mr. John Henry. His name was John Henry and they just had the privilege to come to your house and beat colored men up, drag them out of their house, you know. HUNTLEY: What did the community do? FLEMMON: They couldn&#039 ; t do nothing but keep quite. That&#039 ; s all they did, they had color. The White people didn&#039 ; t believe what the colored people would say. They couldn&#039 ; t talk cause they were afraid. You know they were afraid. HUNTLEY: You could take care of your children and take care of your neighbor&#039 ; s children when there was nothing else involved, but when the White people were involved you didn&#039 ; t have any say. FLEMMON: No, we always told our children obey, be obedient. That&#039 ; s what we told our children and that&#039 ; s all we could tell them, you know, then if anything went on they couldn&#039 ; t talk about it, they just kept it on a low profile. HUNTLEY: You didn&#039 ; t encourage them in those early days before the movement when they got on the bus to sit in the front of the bus or to.... FLEMMON: Oh yeah, we asked them to cooperate with the system, you know, we never tried to keep them away from it, because you know, we couldn&#039 ; t. Cause if they&#039 ; ve seen other children going, they&#039 ; re going to join them to. HUNTLEY: Did they ever ask you any questions about segregation? FLEMMON: Are you talking about my children? HUNTLEY: Yes ma&#039 ; am. FLEMMON: Oh yeah, they asked me questions. I told them. They asked me lots of times why they couldn&#039 ; t go certain places. HUNTLEY: Like where? FLEMMON: Well, to the ball game with the Whites. I told them we wasn&#039 ; t allowed to go there we just had to stay where they put us over on our side. We had ball games but the children played in the neighborhood in the field. Played ball in the afternoon, but they could never go to a ball game or couldn&#039 ; t go to a theater. We had one theater, was the Famous Theater, [inaudible] , but they had a Vaudeville theater you know the colored people could go to them but such as these other theaters they couldn&#039 ; t go. They didn&#039 ; t allow Blacks to go. They did have one theater here I think it was the Pantava, sometime they let them go upstairs, they had to go way upstairs. That was during the time I believe when Bull Conner was, what was he... HUNTLEY: He was the police commissioner. FLEMMON: Police commissioner, Bull Conner, he was real cruel you know to Black people. HUNTLEY: Now when the movement started how did you get involved with the movement? FLEMMON: Well, I just made up my mind that I was going to go with them and join them and try to help them out. If it took my Sunday&#039 ; s I just started and said well, I&#039 ; ve got to go out here and represent my children and so I just decided I would just cooperate and get involved with the movement. Reverend Shuttlesworth was the only person whom we had to speak out for us at that time. You know it was rough, but he had the courage to go out there and face whatever obstacle. HUNTLEY: Were you involved when they first got started? FLEMMON: No, I wasn&#039 ; t involved when they first with the integrating the bus, you know, cause I just had to be at home with the children. Later years we joined up with him when he was integrating the school, gotten involved with that and all of that. HUNTLEY: Was your husband involved? FLEMMON: Well, yeah, he supported it. He marched. HUNTLEY: Did you attend the mass meetings? FLEMMON: Oh yeah, rain or shine we were there. HUNTLEY: Tell me what a mass meeting was like. FLEMMON: The mass meeting was beautiful. It was beautiful. People loving everybody and everybody knew everybody and everybody would just get together and get ready for their movement meeting. They were there on time and they were there. They would go there and help do what they could to help the spirit of the movement. They would go there and pray, sing and pray. Then they would have preaching, the preachers would preach the gospel and everybody would give an amen to what he was saying and people would just pour in and they just begin to meet, get ready for the Monday night movement meeting. HUNTLEY: Did you ever have any problems in getting to the meeting? Or when you left the meeting? FLEMMON: No, nobody bothered me. Some of us had to walk, but we would get there. We never had no trouble, but that was just me. Some other people were having trouble, but I never had any trouble. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in the demonstrations? FLEMMON: All the time. HUNTLEY: Do you remember the first time you got involved in a demonstration? FLEMMON: Well, I&#039 ; ll tell you I got involved with the movement going into the mass meeting and then when they started the picking these places that break down the barriers we continued to join up with them. Those who were leading the marches, we would join up with them. HUNTLEY: Tell me what it was like being on a march? FLEMMON: It was something, it was really something that you just couldn&#039 ; t get away from it. It would just draw you and you would see, it was a spirit they had, that they were just going to look up, but it was wonderful. Now we was in the demonstration when they started opening up the lunch counter. When I went in there, but there were other children that was joined in. We couldn&#039 ; t go and get food like other people we had to go to the back door. Men at this time had money, but they had to go to the back door, to get food out of the cafeteria. HUNTLEY: Just because they were Black. FLEMMON: People were in there cause you know, cause all White people were in there. We couldn&#039 ; t go in there to eat a sandwich or nothing. HUNTLEY: Were you ever attacked during any of the demonstrations? FLEMMON: No, I wasn&#039 ; t ever attacked, no. HUNTLEY: Did anybody ever.... FLEMMON: Kick me or anything. HUNTLEY: Pull a gun on you. FLEMMON: Oh yeah, I had two guns pulled on me at Pizitz while we were walking. See eleven people went to Pizitz there. They were there in the morning when they opened up and they weren&#039 ; t expecting those people. HUNTLEY: Were you one of those? FLEMMON: I wasn&#039 ; t there to march, but I escorted them there to the store. HUNTLEY: So, you escorted them to the store. FLEMMON: Yeah, I had a station wagon and they got in my station wagon from down there on 5th Avenue and that&#039 ; s when we were on 5th Avenue across from Gadsden Motel. I carried them up there and they were arrested. HUNTLEY: So, you usually drove people to various places. FLEMMON: Yeah, I did that. Hauled them around to different places, wherever they had to picket. We&#039 ; d put them out with their picket signs. Then I would go on back and park my car. HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested? FLEMMON: One time, when we were marching with Tony Wren, 63 days I think we were marching with a casket. HUNTLEY: What did the casket represent? FLEMMON: Well, the police men were shooting the Black men, black boys so bad and Tony Wren was trying to show the White man what they were doing and we toted the casket, I think, it was 63 days here in the city of Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Everyday for 63 days? FLEMMON: The casket? HUNTLEY: Yes. FLEMMON: We had a reaper on the casket, I think the first time the casket was a paste board box made like a casket and then somebody got one at Miles college and brought us a wooden box casket. So, Ms. Delta Brooks she put a reaper on that casket. And we marched all up and down the streets, you know all over the town with the casket. The White folks got so mad, boy, he was talking real bad to us about that casket. We kept on marching. At Loweman&#039 ; s I had a gun on me when they had those two White boys and that colored boy down there in Mississippi, when they killed them. The lady come up here from Mississippi, she throwed a gun on me at Loweman&#039 ; s, but they put her car in cause Rev. Oliver was over the line and they pulled her car in to the city down there to the city yard and she was there that evening talking to the police officer and he told her she had to go down to the city hall. HUNTLEY: Why did they pull her car in? FLEMMON: They pulled it cause they found the gun she had. See, she throwed it on me and put it back in her car. HUNTLEY: Why did she point the gun at you? FLEMMON: Well, she was just mad cause we were out there picketing. HUNTLEY: This was a White woman? FLEMMON: Yeah, White, two coming from Mississippi. HUNTLEY: They were coming up here to shop? FLEMMON: That&#039 ; s right coming up here from Mississippi. HUNTLEY: I see. FLEMMON: She told me, she ought to blow my brains out, but they got Rev. Oliver to over see our line and he checked out everything to see if all was well and so they pulled their car in. And she asked the police officer how could she get her car and he told her to go to city hall and talk to the authorities down there. HUNTLEY: So, you were very active in the movement. FLEMMON: Yeah, I was active all day long if they were marching. Lots of times I was out there by myself cause they were marching and someone had to leave and go and leave one person out there till some more come. HUNTLEY: You mean you were left out there alone? FLEMMON: Yeah, by myself, but I marched right on. I kept the faith and kept going and soon they would send someone that could get some more marchers to come up. Some would march alone and some had to work and then they would come out and march. I stayed out there trying to keep the line going. I marched from the city hall to the county court house. We marched up the government street, Calvin Woods and all of his children would come and help. HUNTLEY: Were any of your children involved? FLEMMON: Yeah, I had some children, they would come in the evening and march after school. HUNTLEY: Were there efforts, did you participate in any of the efforts to recruit children from the schools? FLEMMON: Why sure during the time when 1963. We recruited children because we went round and sang songs, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference came in here and the children hear singing and they decided they would just, we heard on the radio a guy was talking, we had the radio. See Jose Williams down from the Southern Christian Leadership Conference come here to help us in this demonstration. We couldn&#039 ; t do it by ourself we had to have some help. HUNTLEY: What schools did you go to? FLEMMON: Well, we went to Carver High School, we went to Ullman and they had different marches going to different schools getting the children prepared to come on in down to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. They sang and the children wouldn&#039 ; t stay on the school grounds. They were leaving and there was nothing the teachers could do. They couldn&#039 ; t hold them. So, they marched on down there from the school to Sixteenth Street. They had marches on the highway to protect them children to keep people from running through there with cars, you know some of the White people are kind of mean and would do anything to try and stop the march. Weren&#039 ; t none of them hurt because we had good marchers. We had Rev. Podem and Rev. J. H. Callaway, they helped me to bring the children from Collegeville on down to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. They would march on the highway. HUNTLEY: Did any of your children ever leave school to demonstrate? FLEMMON: They only left school when they started the demonstration. They were at school and then they came off the school premises. They had went to school, but the minute they heard the singing they just joined on in with the other students and they went to marching. HUNTLEY: What did you feel about that? FLEMMON: What? HUNTLEY: What were your feelings about your children leaving school? FLEMMON: My feelings were real good, cause they had to do what they had to do and I couldn&#039 ; t stop them and I wasn&#039 ; t gonna hinder them cause they never laid a day out of school, but they went to school. When ever they said they needed these children they just decided to leave the school. I didn&#039 ; t try to prohibit them from going. HUNTLEY: What were the discussions like at home about the movement, since you and your children and husband were involved? Did you ever talk about the movement at home? FLEMMON: Oh yeah, we talked about it and then we cried over it and we prayed over it. Oh yeah, it was a big one that you just couldn&#039 ; t shake off. After they [inaudible] was straight we just didn&#039 ; t hold our peace cause we know we had to do something that helped cause we were a part of it. It was concerning about us so we joined in. HUNTLEY: Then your activity in the movement was real supportive so you were one of those that transported people from different places to help them get to a place to demonstrate. FLEMMON: Yeah. HUNTLEY: I know some people that did that they were sometimes approached by policemen. FLEMMON: Oh yeah, I was approached by policemen. The day Hubert Humphrey came to Birmingham, one of the police officers on the motorcycles he wanted to put me in jail for some reason, I hadn&#039 ; t broke the law. The marchers were going, they were in my station wagon, they were going to the airport. HUNTLEY: To meet Humphrey? FLEMMON: To meet Hubert Humphrey coming in on the plane. So they wanted Hubert Humphrey to go out on the front. So, he told them that he had some friends on the back and he wanted to go out the back, but the national guard moved. So, they had national guardsmen all up there in the woods and up on top of the buildings, you know, to see that we would be safe and wouldn&#039 ; t be harmed by the other group of people. So, we got a chance to see Hubert Humphrey when his plane come in we were back there on the airport road waving. HUNTLEY: So, why did the policeman want to arrest you? FLEMMON: Well, they wanted it stopped. So, if they stopped me with my station wagon full of all of those people they would stop the march, but they didn&#039 ; t stop it, cause we still went on to meet Hubert Humphrey downtown at the motel. We still picketed down there. HUNTLEY: Why were you picketing? FLEMMON: Well, they told us to picket to let him see what was going on. And he seen what was happening. HUNTLEY: So, you were demonstrating to show him what it was like in this town? FLEMMON: That&#039 ; s right. They wanted to him to go out in the front of the airport but he told them no, I got some friends in the back and want to see them. Rev. Shuttlesworth and all were back there. We were out there with Rev. Shuttlesworth, they knew what time the plane was coming in. HUNTLEY: So, he knew you all were there. FLEMMON: Yeah. HUNTLEY: So, that&#039 ; s what he was referring to when he said he had friends. FLEMMON: Yeah, yeah, so, we all got out there during the time when the plane was coming in and landed and we were there, see. Then we followed the escort back to downtown. HUNTLEY: Did you get a chance to meet him? FLEMMON: Oh yeah, my baby she shook his hand, she got a chance to. He talked to a lot of us. HUNTLEY: Did he come to any of the meetings? FLEMMON: I don&#039 ; t recall about the meeting or not, but anyway we got a chance to speak to him. HUNTLEY: What is the most important issue of the time that you remember, like any events that took place that stand out in your mind about your participation and your involvement in the movement? FLEMMON: Well, the most important issue was when we were really marching around with that casket in Birmingham. Them days, you know, to show the world and the world did see what was going on. That was very important cause so many of our young Black boys were getting shot down and nothing would be done about it. And Tony Wren decided he was going to demonstrate and show up and he carried us all up and down alleys all down and the police were on the motorcycles and he said follow me. He took us all up and down the alley and all around. HUNTLEY: Did you.... FLEMMON: Oh, I&#039 ; ll tell you another evening happened. The night we came out of St. James Baptist Church down back down there in Smithfield and we went to Liberty Market there was on 5th Avenue they had a shooting as we got up there they shot a young colored man. HUNTLEY: Who shot him? FLEMMON: A White man shot the man. He was shot accidentally, we left the church coming up there to picket and they shot this colored man as he was going over to the Shoe City to get one or two of his children some shoes. He accidentally shot him, a White fellow shot him. HUNTLEY: Accidentally shot him? FLEMMON: Yeah, but they thought they had done shot Rev. Shuttlesworth, but he shot the wrong man. The poor man was going over there to buy some shoes for his children. HUNTLEY: They shot him intentionally and thought he was Rev. Shuttlesworth. FLEMMON: Yeah, and that really disturbed the people real bad, upset them. HUNTLEY: What did the people do? FLEMMON: He&#039 ; s probably out today wherever he is, I didn&#039 ; t know the guy, we just had left the church and they said well, we are going up here to Liberty and picket a while. HUNTLEY: After the shooting, that&#039 ; s what you all did was to picket? Did you get cooperation from people that were going in the stores? FLEMMON: Oh yeah, they cooperated. Some shed a dime too. Then they had another incident down there one night, a colored man was in the store and he was talking to his wife and a police officer come in there and talked real bad to the colored man and him and some of his relatives them they started confusion there at the cash register and he asked his wife, he said, he called her some sweet name, and said you got what you want and so they thought he was talking to that White woman. And boy, they had a big fight down there that night, jelly, and the cashier burned some stuff and they were throwing jelly down there and they had a big one. HUNTLEY: Who was throwing the jelly? FLEMMON: Just the people started fighting down there. The police officer. HUNTLEY: Was this at Liberty? FLEMMON: Yeah, down there downtown at Liberty Store. They had a big thing down there. People were running and hollering scared the police were going to shoot, you know. In fact, they drove the man&#039 ; s wife out of the store and they beat the man up, too. Sent him to the hospital, oh, it was terrible. HUNTLEY: Were you a registered voter? FLEMMON: Oh yeah. HUNTLEY: Do you remember when you registered? What was it like when you registered? FLEMMON: Oh, it was tough when I went there and registered. They asked you all them questions and some of them I didn&#039 ; t even know. About the military service and all of that, you know. Old man Briar, he was down there at the time, he was tough. He tried every way he could to keep me from getting registered to vote. He tried to put every block he could in your way. HUNTLEY: Did you pass the first time? FLEMMON: Yeah, I passed it. HUNTLEY: And did you know other people that had to go back to take it? FLEMMON: Oh yeah. Many times they were turned down and they went back. They didn&#039 ; t get discouraged they just kept on going till they got it right, you know. They just did that to keep the blacks from voting, that was before the voting right bill was passed in 1965. Then after they passed it, it was easy then, much easier for them to go in there, than it was for us. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any other demonstrations outside of Birmingham? FLEMMON: No, I couldn&#039 ; t go. I had the children. I had to stay there with the children, but we just did what we had to do here. My children, two of my children, they went to the demonstration in Washington, D.C. to that march with Dr. King. I still had to stay here in Birmingham cause all of us couldn&#039 ; t go cause we didn&#039 ; t have the money to send all of them. We had to pay their way. HUNTLEY: Do you remember when the Freedom Riders came through? FLEMMON: Yeah, I remember. HUNTLEY: Were you involved at that time? FLEMMON: No, we were still with the movement, but we didn&#039 ; t get in there with the Freedom Riders. HUNTLEY: What about the morning the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church was bombed? FLEMMON: Oh, yeah, that was a terrible time. Talking about the water hose and the dogs, yeah, we was involved with that. I didn&#039 ; t ever get down there in time for them to put water on me. At the time I got ready to go down there it was all over with, but I&#039 ; d seen it on the TV. HUNTLEY: What about the Sixteenth Street bombing that killed those four little girls? FLEMMON: That was terrible. HUNTLEY: Do you remember that morning? FLEMMON: Yeah, I remember that Sunday morning cause I was over there at Bethel&#039 ; s Church over there in Sunday school when they had that bombing. It shook us. The Sunday school teacher that was teaching us, he got a call that Sixteenth Street Baptist Church had been bombed. That was a critical day. Sad day, terrible about them children. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about it? FLEMMON: I don&#039 ; t know who had the heart to do it, but they did it. HUNTLEY: They did it. That morning you were in Sunday school. FLEMMON: I was at Sunday school, we was at church, all of us were at Sunday school. HUNTLEY: So, what did you think was the significance, how important was what was happening with the movement for Birmingham? How important was the movement? FLEMMON: I think it was very important for the people to get involved and to try and make it better for all people, you know, for all people, cause most of the people was under a depression and there was a press and the movement just made it better for people to come together and unite together, you know. They couldn&#039 ; t come together before the movement, they had to be separated, divided, you know. HUNTLEY: So, you are saying the movement then brought people closer together. FLEMMON: That&#039 ; s right, brought them close together. HUNTLEY: Although you had previously said that neighbors were real close to each other cause they would take care of each other&#039 ; s children. So when the movement came along this even made them closer? FLEMMON: Closer together, they got more close together and began to get more love for each other and had their mind made up to get ready for the movement, the meetings, mass meetings. They would be calling me up and want to know if you&#039 ; re going to the mass meeting, and some didn&#039 ; t have any rides and those that did would say you can go with me. Some would walked cause you could walk then and no one would bother you. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of? FLEMMON: I was a member of New Pilgrim Baptist Church at the time then. When they had the great march over there at New Pilgrim Baptist Church, you see they go round to different churches, the movement. See, I was originally a member of the Tabernacle Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: I know New Pilgrim was ministered and a lot of people were involved. Was Tabernacle involved in the movement, was the pastor? FLEMMON: No, they weren&#039 ; t involved because most of those people had jobs. You know how that was they didn&#039 ; t take an active part, like they wanted to, cause of their jobs and they had families to see after. HUNTLEY: What about the congregation at New Pilgrim? FLEMMON: Oh, they were very active people over there. They were just the type of people that believed in and they just had the spirit of wanting to be free. HUNTLEY: Do you think it had something to do with their leadership? FLEMMON: Why sure it had something cause some of the preachers were non-violent and they had to use non-violent people. HUNTLEY: So, some of the ministers then would decide they were not going to be involved? FLEMMON: Why sure, lots of them didn&#039 ; t take an active part until things got better, unlike when the heat was on, they played it cool. When the heat was on they wouldn&#039 ; t come out there, Rev. Shuttlesworth was out there and he had some cooperation with some strong men, you know. HUNTLEY: Rev. N. H. Smith was real active. FLEMMON: Yeah, he was one and Rev. Phifer, and Rev. C. H. George and Rev. J. W. Pruitt, and Rev. Frankie Lane. HUNTLEY: What about Rev. Porter? FLEMMON: Well, I didn&#039 ; t know Rev. Porter at that time real good. He was quite young, but he got involved, you know. It had to take something to shake lots of people up to get them woke up. I think the bombing, when they bombed the Gaston Motel, you know, that kind of shook them up, they thought that night when they had that big thing down there, you know. Then they kind of got the courage that they were gonna take a stand, you know. And stand as men and brothers together. They got them in, but it took something to shake them up, wake them up, you know. HUNTLEY: Yes, yes. FLEMMON: Lots of them said they were violent and they would fight and they said I&#039 ; d fight. That kept lots of them away. They didn&#039 ; t need nobody there that would mess up. HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that we have not talked about, that you would like to share with us that relates to the movement? FLEMMON: Well, the only thing that I can honestly say is that the foot soldiers went through lots of storms here in the city, walking trying to get the people to wake up. You know, they had foot soldiers. Then lots of people cooperated with the movement, but they couldn&#039 ; t come out openly, you know. We understand, cause when you got to do what you got to do you can&#039 ; t just come out like you want to but you wouldn&#039 ; t and then you would take turns to help support it. Lots of people didn&#039 ; t get out there and demonstrate it, but they supported it. HUNTLEY: Financially? FLEMMON: That&#039 ; s what I&#039 ; m talking about, and spiritual. HUNTLEY: Were you able to participate cause your husband was an independent business man? FLEMMON: That&#039 ; s what it was cause I was able to walk out there because nobody was his boss, yeah. You understand? When you got your hand in the lion&#039 ; s mouth you got to.... HUNTLEY: Ease through there. FLEMMON: I was able to do lots of things for some that were unable to do what I could do and I went out there in good faith, but there were lots of good people in Birmingham that did well. They supported it very well. Financially. I give them credit. Now, all the people wasn&#039 ; t with us, but all of them wasn&#039 ; t against us. HUNTLEY: You never got all to be for or against. FLEMMON: That&#039 ; s right. Some went and some stayed and died in the wilderness. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. FLEMMON: So, that&#039 ; s the way it is. You got some that will cooperate and some won&#039 ; t cooperate, but they were still with us. I give them credit, they really supported the thing we were involved with. It probably wasn&#039 ; t every time the meeting was going on, but they sent that money. They money come from different churches, you know what I mean. Different churches cooperated. Lots of churches they were afraid that they were going to be bombed and all of that. It was quite natural, you know. Everybody don&#039 ; t have the same spirit about life. They are not as strong maybe as other would be. You got to have faith to walk out there amongst them mean folks, you got to have God in front to lead and guide you. And keep you from getting angry cause we went through lots of bad things. Them foot soldiers went through something, but they was able. Them guys, some of them White guys, they were rough on us walking out there with them signs. The signs is what made them so mad, so angry. Just to read it, they couldn&#039 ; t take it so they would say some harsh things, but we took it. We took it, told them God Bless Them and we went on. It wasn&#039 ; t no easy going out there, I can tell you that. HUNTLEY: Took strength to be able to do that. FLEMMON: Yeah, and you had to pray to. See what I mean about the prayers about the people praying gives us strength and we prayed to and that gave us double strength. So we made it. HUNTLEY: Mrs. Flemmon, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and talk with us and you&#039 ; ve been quite helpful. FLEMMON: Well, I hope what I said will be beneficial to you and others, I hope. HUNTLEY: I&#039 ; m sure it will be. FLEMMON: I hope. HUNTLEY: This will all be housed here at the institute. FLEMMON: Yeah. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=NFlemmon1996.xml NFlemmon1996.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Nettie Flemmon Description An account of the resource Nettie Flemmon discusses devoting her life to the Movement in every way. She, her husband and her children coordinated, assisted and demonstrated all around the South, including two of her children attending the March on Washington. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19960605F Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996-06-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/75677b99f7d8dca67220824c53ca75c3.png 266ba67d3fac07132b96a40edac6d0a6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lola Hendricks Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Walter Lee Gadsden OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=WLGadsden1996.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Kelly Ingram Park OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 May 25, 1996 Walter Lee Gadsden 19960525G 0:23:43 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Atlanta (Ga.)--Race relations Kelly Ingram Park Walter Lee Gadsden Lola Hendricks Video 1:|22(4)|41(3)|58(2)|75(2)|88(4)|101(3)|115(3)|132(7)|151(17)|164(2)|175(11)|190(14)|205(1)|215(8)|227(15)|240(10)|251(15)|271(7)|289(13)|308(4)|327(1)|338(12)|354(2) 0 https://youtu.be/w5yrVAyLhXY YouTube video English 0 Introduction of Interview This is an interview, today is Saturday, May 25, 1996, at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute with Mr. Walter Gadsden of Atlanta, Georgia. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 11 Early Childhood and Family Life Mr. Gadsden, as we begin this interview I would like to ask you what part of the state were your parents from? Gadsden discusses his parents and how he grew up in the poor, mainly &quot ; colored&quot ; section of Birmingham. Selma (Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Racial segregation 128 His Community's Relationship with the Birmingham Police Department What was that community's relationship to the City of Birmingham Police Department? Did you ever see any policemen patrolling your area? Gadsden discusses what it was like growing up in his neighborhood and how the police interacted with people in and around his neighborhood. Aggression and violence Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 176 Involvement in the Civil Rights Movement How did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement? Gadsden recalls how he promoted the Civil Rights Movement and participated in demonstrations and protests. Birmingham (Ala.) Civil rights movement 236 Personal Experience with Police Brutality and His Arrest To the park area, Kelly Ingram Park over there. And we walked around the corner and during that time activity wasn't easy to view, so we walked around and came in the front of the crowd, rather than behind. Gadsden recalls how violent the police and a police dog were towards him during a protest and how he was arrested for simply being there. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Kelly Ingram Park Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Police brutality--United States 454 Family's Reaction to Him Being Arrested After you return to school after being arrested, were you suspended? Gadsden remembers how his family was upset he went to the demonstration rather than school. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Ullman High School Arrest (Police methods) 546 Goal of Integration What benefits do you, your family, and the community realized as a result of that movement in Birmingham? Gadsden states that the integration of public facilities and schools was one of the greatest outcomes of the movement in Birmingham. Birmingham (Ala.) Integration ; Minorities--Political activity--United States 648 Reflection on the Civil Rights Movement If you were in control of an organization or movement, as such, and could go back and change some things, what would you change? Gadsden discusses how he would carefully pick who was involved in the movement. Birmingham (Ala.) Civil rights movement 766 Success of the Birmingham Civil Rights Movement What is your assessment of the Birmingham movement or have you been gone too long to really be able to tell what assessment has occurred in Birmingham? Gadsden discusses the successes of the movement but states that it could have been more successful if &quot ; crooked&quot ; people were not involved. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Minorities--Political activity--United States Civil rights movement 918 Racial Attitudes in Atlanta You now reside in Atlanta, Georgia. Do you have any assessments as you look at Atlanta and compare it to Birmingham? Do you have anything that you may want to say about the two cities? Gadsden discusses present-day life in Atlanta and how there is still a negative attitude towards &quot ; colored&quot ; people. Atlanta (Ga.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) Atlanta (Ga.)--Race relations ; Racial discrimination 1045 Thoughts on the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Let me ask you about your visit with us here today. Gadsden reveals how he feels about his picture being in the institute and how he does not want any notoriety from it. Birmingham (Ala.) Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 1220 Preference of the Word &quot ; Colored&quot ; to Describe Himself Well, I'm still wondering why after all the information that I had given and all that -- all that does is establish me as a young African boy, which I'm not. Gadsden tells how he prefers to be called &quot ; colored&quot ; rather than &quot ; negro&quot ; or Black. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Self-identification Birmingham (Ala.) 1280 Closing Remarks and His Photography Business Is there anything else you feel like you want to talk about in a personal manner or anything else that you would like to say before we end this interview? Gadsden leaves his last remarks on the movement and briefly discusses his freelance photography business. Photography--Business methods Atlanta (Ga.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1411 Conclusion of Interview It's been a pleasure and we hope you come back to see us. Again, thank you for the interview. Interview is concluded. Oral History Walter Lee Gadsden discusses growing up and experiencing discrimination in Birmingham before getting involved in the Movement. Mr. Gadsden's likeness and actions as a foot soldier inspired the statue of the young boy demonstrating at BCRI. HENDRICKS: This is an interview, today is Saturday, May 25, 1996, at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute with Mr. Walter Gadsden of Atlanta, Georgia. Mr. Gadsden, as we begin this interview I would like to ask you what part of the state were your parents from? GADSDEN: The southern part of the State. HENDRICKS: Were they born in Birmingham? GADSDEN: No. I&#039 ; m not quite sure, but I think Selma for my mother. But, the man that I called &quot ; Father&quot ; was from Mississippi originally. HENDRICKS: How many brothers and sisters do you have? GADSDEN: I have one sister. HENDRICKS: Is she older than you? GADSDEN: Yes. HENDRICKS: How much education did your parents have? GADSDEN: Well, from what I can ascertain, they were both educated as far as high school and the first school was concerned. I&#039 ; d never been the one to ask about all of that. HENDRICKS: Mr. Gadsden, when you were here in Birmingham as a child, what community did you live in? GADSDEN: On the south side of town. HENDRICKS: What basically was your racial make-up in that area? GADSDEN: It was mostly Negro, Black, Colored. HENDRICKS: Okay. Occupation during that time? GADSDEN: I was a school kid. HENDRICKS: I mean people in that area pretty much were on the same economic level? GADSDEN: Well, it was a poorer neighborhood. Very poor. HENDRICKS: What was that community&#039 ; s relationship to the City of Birmingham Police Department? Did you ever see any policemen patrolling your area? GADSDEN: The immediate area that I lived in -- I lived at, well you know the address. HENDRICKS: 3114? GADSDEN: Right. So, the immediate neighborhood was rather rough. There were various outbreaks of violence amongst neighborhood people, but only amongst themselves, family matters and things of that sort. But various other neighboring neighborhoods, which weren&#039 ; t so very large, there would be a lot of police activity and I never knew what it was about. HENDRICKS: How did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement? GADSDEN: Now, that&#039 ; s one thing that I always have a problem with. I never did get involved with the Civil Rights Movement. I&#039 ; ve always believed in trying to promote civil rights amongst people such as myself and anyone, as a matter of fact. But, the fact is the day of that movement, I was supposed to have been in school, but an acquaintance had told me earlier that Martin Luther King was in town that day and that he was going to be there and I said I wanted to be there too. I wanted to come and find out what it was all about because I didn&#039 ; t know anything about it. HENDRICKS: When you left school, you were at what high school at the time? GADSDEN: Ullman. HENDRICKS: And, when you left school, where did you come downtown? GADSDEN: To the park area, Kelly Ingram Park over there. And we walked around the corner and during that time activity wasn&#039 ; t easy to view, so we walked around and came in the front of the crowd, rather than behind. I thought it would be in the middle of the crowd somehow. I saw policemen and all of the activity so I started walking toward, I don&#039 ; t know what happened to the acquaintance of mine, but I was walking toward the activity and as I approached and got closer, they turned and looked at me and I got closer. I saw them coming toward me, so I turned to leave to go around and get with where the Black people were so I could get some information because I knew I wasn&#039 ; t going to get anything from the police. So, as I turned and started to walk away, I was grabbed. HENDRICKS: Grabbed by the policemen? GADSDEN: Grabbed by the policeman and yanked toward him and afterward I was grabbed and hustled to a white van and bodily picked up and thrown. As I started to step, I was just pushed on in. HENDRICKS: Okay, but before this happened, when the police grabbed you on the collar, is that when the dog bit you? Did a dog bite you at that time? GADSDEN: As near as I can remember that happened simultaneously. The policeman grabbed me, I don&#039 ; t remember what hand. I could show you the bite marks and all. HENDRICKS: So you still have the scars? GADSDEN: Yes. But, that happened simultaneously and I was surprised because I was walking away. During that time the racial air was so thick that whatever it was I couldn&#039 ; t really focus to find out what was going on because that was adult activity, the way I thought then. But, I was looking, I couldn&#039 ; t look up, I was looking at the white 3-wheel motorcycles coming toward me. It happened so fast there was nothing I could do except throw up a leg and try to protect myself. And, as I was doing that, there I went. HENDRICKS: Did they take you to jail? GADSDEN: Not the regular facility. They took me to the fairgrounds in a huge tent. HENDRICKS: These circumstances were because of the mass arrests, is that why you had to go out to fair park? GADSDEN: Yes, that&#039 ; s what I was told. HENDRICKS: Do you remember how long you remained in jail or arrested? GADSDEN: No, now that I cannot remember because a lot has happened since then and things that have happened prevent me from remembering at the moment. It&#039 ; s rather sketchy. I like being rather precise with whatever I say. HENDRICKS: Did any other family member of yours participate in the Movement at all or get arrested or go to the mass meetings? GADSDEN: No, not that I know about. HENDRICKS: After you return to school after being arrested, were you suspended? GADSDEN: I think so. I&#039 ; m not quite sure. I remember being in the auditorium and the principal gave a good bombasting and the crowd began laughing, but I was standing there rather embarrassed at the outcome. HENDRICKS: How did your family members react to your participation? GADSDEN: Well, they were angry because I didn&#039 ; t attend school that day. HENDRICKS: Were you a member of a church at that time? GADSDEN: I wasn&#039 ; t a member of a church, but the family activity, I was rather instructed to go to church. But, often I would not go because of the fact that I&#039 ; m not a very religious person. HENDRICKS: The church where your parents or your family attending, were they involved in the Civil Rights Movement during that time, do you know? GADSDEN: They never told me of it. HENDRICKS: What church were they going to at that time? GADSDEN: I see it, I know where it is, but I don&#039 ; t remember the name of it. HENDRICKS: What benefits do you, your family and the community realized as a result of that movement in Birmingham? GADSDEN: None. HENDRICKS: You don&#039 ; t think that any benefits were done (Inaudible)? GADSDEN: Well, overall is where gradually facilities where opened. The &#039 ; White only&#039 ; signs and &#039 ; Colored only&#039 ; signs were removed. But there was always the same racial air except among some Caucasian people. Some Caucasian people during that time were openly friendly and inviting as a matter of gaining access to normal community things, while most weren&#039 ; t. The only thing that I could see that actually happened was that the toilets became integrated and the water fountains became integrated and gradually various other things because of various influences among certain groups and because of the nationwide pressure that was put upon the Caucasians and the Whites of various other races in opening all of those opportunities. And the government is the main thing. All of that brought about governmental and political action that brought all that about. Now, that&#039 ; s stirred it, but its the votes and the political actions and the laws passed that brought all that about. HENDRICKS: If you were in control of an organization or movement, as such, and could go back and change some things, what would you change? GADSDEN: If I could go back to the movement of the past and change some things, the Civil Rights Movement? HENDRICKS: Yes. GADSDEN: Well, I&#039 ; ll take a look at the form, the shape, this could get me into trouble, but I really believe this and I really think this. It&#039 ; s not a feeling or anything. HENDRICKS: This is your personal interview. GADSDEN: Okay, the things that I would change would be a more careful choice of people involved in all of those movements, where the head meetings and all that was concerned. That was necessary as a matter of the laws not being changed anyway, because that would have remained status quo. But, the things that I would change would be -- well, I wouldn&#039 ; t change anything actually because that would be entirely hypothetical and being hypothetical isn&#039 ; t easy for me except when joking or just fantasizing and I don&#039 ; t like fantasizing too much. So there&#039 ; s nothing that I could really say about it, without really thinking about it. But, there are too many, well to be just blunt, crooked people. Many of the people that were involved and had notoriety became too crooked. HENDRICKS: Okay. GADSDEN: Illegal. HENDRICKS: What is your assessment of the Birmingham movement or have you been gone too long to really be able to tell what assessment has occurred in Birmingham? How successful do you think the Birmingham movement was? What were it&#039 ; s accomplishments or what were its failures? Now, you may or may not be able to answer that question because if you&#039 ; ve been gone a good part of Birmingham you may not know. GADSDEN: Well, where Birmingham is concerned the political issues, the civil issues, the business issues, I have no knowledge of because I&#039 ; ve been gone for years. Earlier when I said that people, or some of the people that were involved, became too crooked, I was talking about the whole United States as a whole, not just Birmingham, Alabama. There aren&#039 ; t any particular cases of that that I can mention without causing major concern where my own welfare is concerned, being sued or (Inaudible), or slandering someone and all that kind of thing, I&#039 ; m not going to do that. HENDRICKS: Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with at this interview? And comments or statements you want to make of anything that you would like to leave with the young people that may hear your testimony? GADSDEN: Well, there isn&#039 ; t much that I could really say because of the fact that where anything is concerned there&#039 ; s always the air that Black people have done so much for the Black people of the country. And, then called Black all the time and, then called African all the time, which I&#039 ; m not, that makes -- Africans really don&#039 ; t like me much. So, there&#039 ; s really not much I can relate to you on that because of the fact that I&#039 ; m not a popular person where personals are concerned. Maybe because of (Inaudible) you say, but I&#039 ; ve never had any notoriety. I&#039 ; ve never even talked about it. I never talked about it with anyone, as a matter of fact. HENDRICKS: You now reside in Atlanta, Georgia. Do you have any assessments as you look at Atlanta and compare it to Birmingham? Do you have anything that you may want to say about the two cities? GADSDEN: Well, the two cities compare but I cannot really make that comparison because of the fact that I was living there and not here, and occasionally visiting here but not becoming involved in anything. So, the political structure I can&#039 ; t say anything about because I&#039 ; m not familiar with Birmingham&#039 ; s political structure or business structure or anything else about it. But, where Atlanta is concerned, it was basically integrated, so to speak, but there was still that racial attitude, nonetheless and now. But, since Blacks have been pressuring so much and becoming involved in so much, it&#039 ; s eased some, but in 1980 I went to a barber shop that I found was White in the middle of downtown Atlanta and got refused. HENDRICKS: That was in 1980? GADSDEN: 1980 with a Black mayor and everything else. I&#039 ; ve been, not because of any rowdiness or anything like that but just because of racial attitudes, had the police called on me while I was sitting in a bar drinking beer alone, not saying anything to anyone and thinking about drinking the beer, maybe getting another one and leaving. And, there comes a Black policeman and said the management wants me to leave because they reserve the right not to serve whom it is that they don&#039 ; t want to serve. HENDRICKS: Well, do you think that was only because of the color of your skin? Were you the only Black in there? GADSDEN: I was the only person in there with my color. HENDRICKS: So you still experience that in Atlanta, Georgia? GADSDEN: Yes. HENDRICKS: Let me ask you about your visit with us here today. How do you feel after having seen the statue that is out there, of foot soldiers and it shows the images of you in that picture that was taken in 1963 of May? GADSDEN: That statue doesn&#039 ; t look like me. It looks like a totally different boy. That looks like an African boy. HENDRICKS: That&#039 ; s the way you feel about it? It looks like an African boy? GADSDEN: It looks like an African boy. HENDRICKS: The color or the features? GADSDEN: The features. The lips, the size. You take a look at the picture there and the statue there, the boy is short, I was tall for my age. I was looking down at the dog, but that was his interpretation, the artist, I suppose. But, the boy doesn&#039 ; t look like me. And, I mean it&#039 ; s representative of, that&#039 ; s the way I think about it. I&#039 ; m wondering still, why me, because I&#039 ; ve never had any notoriety whatsoever concerning that picture. That picture was in the paper, but many other people were too. Many other situations, buses, bombings. HENDRICKS: But they chose to use the little boy at 15 for that statue. GADSDEN: The little boy in age, but not the little boy in size. HENDRICKS: But that&#039 ; s what they chose to do. GADSDEN: That&#039 ; s what they chose. HENDRICKS: How do you feel about it? GADSDEN: Well, it&#039 ; s -- I really don&#039 ; t know how to say it. HENDRICKS: Were you surprised when you found out about it? GADSDEN: I was totally flabbergasted. I didn&#039 ; t know what to think. When I first contacted you I was in Kentucky and I couldn&#039 ; t sleep, so I didn&#039 ; t know what to say. I&#039 ; m still at a loss for words concerning the reasoning because of that, I don&#039 ; t know. HENDRICKS: The mayor of the city chose that to use as a monument for foot soldiers. He chose that picture to be used. We are very proud of it and I hope you will be too. And, now that we know who you are, we can add a name under there. That you were the young boy that the sculpture used. GADSDEN: Well, I&#039 ; m still wondering why after all the information that I had given and all that -- all that does is establish me as a young African boy, which I&#039 ; m not. HENDRICKS: You would prefer being called a Negro? GADSDEN: I prefer being called what I am -- Colored. HENDRICKS: Oh, you prefer the word &quot ; Colored?&quot ; GADSDEN: I am. HENDRICKS: Okay. GADSDEN: You see the main thing, the main complaint that I had with the Negro and the Black race is that anytime anyone says &#039 ; Colored&#039 ; there&#039 ; s that old racial air of, &#039 ; if you ain&#039 ; t bright enough, you ain&#039 ; t White enough, you ain&#039 ; t Colored.&#039 ; HENDRICKS: So that is your wish? GADSDEN: Colored is mixed race. HENDRICKS: Is there anything else you feel like you want to talk about in a personal manner or anything else that you would like to say before we end this interview? GADSDEN: No. There are many things that I could talk about that make me, that I think about all of this, but that would take too much time. It would take a day or two to really converse and I don&#039 ; t have time to converse and I don&#039 ; t think you do either. HENDRICKS: Yes, you have a plane to catch at 8:25? GADSDEN: Right. HENDRICKS: Okay. Well, it&#039 ; s been a pleasure having you here. I&#039 ; m very grateful to the fact that we could find you and hope that you will come back to the Civil Rights Institute and come back to the park. And, since you&#039 ; re in the photography business now, you need to come back and get some shots of that after we put your name on there. GADSDEN: I think I will, but the photography business that I&#039 ; m in is rather rough and difficult as a matter of subject material and I&#039 ; m selling. If I were working with some company, it would be different, but I freelance, so wherever I can sell, whatever I can sell is what I have to do. That&#039 ; s why I drive a truck, also. That&#039 ; s the only way to make sure money. That&#039 ; s the only way to earn a living at. But, although I&#039 ; ve studied, I&#039 ; ve become very good at it. Oh, there&#039 ; s that racial attitude, too, that &quot ; if you&#039 ; re not White, you&#039 ; ve got less of a chance.&quot ; And, that&#039 ; s me. I&#039 ; ve got less of a chance than anything. HENDRICKS: It&#039 ; s been a pleasure and we hope you come back to see us. Again, thank you for the interview. GADSDEN: Fine. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=WLGadsden1996.xml WLGadsden1996.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Walter Lee Gadsden Description An account of the resource Walter Lee Gadsden discusses growing up and experiencing discrimination in Birmingham before getting involved in the Movement. Mr. Gadsden's likeness and actions as a foot soldier inspired the statue of the young boy demonstrating at BCRI. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19960525G Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Atlanta (Ga.)--Race relations Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996-05-25 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/bc72c091b06e74752b9b1cf6078dfbda.png 55753fb063bee00e70517219907981d3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Johnnie Cunningham OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JCunningham2008.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Howard, Asbury OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 November 19, 2008 Johnnie Cunningham 20081119C 0:59:16 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Voter registration UAB Medical Center Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Howard, Asbury Johnnie Cunningham Horace Huntley Video 1:|18(11)|45(6)|62(14)|74(5)|85(13)|100(12)|117(8)|129(13)|139(12)|158(9)|177(9)|187(10)|207(2)|221(8)|240(7)|256(5)|275(2)|286(11)|303(13)|328(12)|337(12)|351(10)|366(1)|386(13)|410(12)|424(13)|442(4)|465(1)|481(2)|501(7)|519(7)|537(6)|549(8)|565(3)|575(12)|582(14)|591(14)|606(3)|615(9)|619(7)|630(13)|644(1)|656(12)|667(4)|680(9)|694(13)|708(7)|730(4)|740(2)|765(9)|778(2)|803(8)|814(15)|830(16)|845(5)|865(5)|875(17)|894(3)|915(4) 0 https://youtu.be/vvTJ0GJz_p0 YouTube video English 2 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Ms. Johnnie Cunningham for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Johnnie Cunningham is introduced Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Cunningham, Johnnie African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 26 Family Background Were you born in Birmingham or in Bessemer? Cunningham states that she was born in Bessemer, Alabama and was raised by her grandparents ; her mother died at the age of 20, when Cunningham was 4 years old. She explains that her grandfather worked for Berman Brothers, and her grandmother worked in the home. Autaugaville (Ala.) ; Bessemer (Ala.) ; Dunbar High School (Bessemer, Ala.) African American families 373 Educational Background What do you remember about going to school at Dunbar? Cunningham talks about her experiences at school, including Dunbar and Pipe Shop. She discusses her favorite teachers and the subjects that they taught. Early education Dunbar High School (Bessemer, Ala.) ; Pipe Shop Elementary School (Bessemer, Ala.) 555 Traveling with Her Children What did you do after you finished school? Cunningham describes the various times and places that she traveled with her children around the country, including California, Wyoming, and other places like Florida. California ; Florida ; Gulf Shores (Ala.) ; Hoover (Ala.) ; Jackson Hole (Wyo.) Children--Travel ; Family vacations 787 Involvement with the Struggles in Birmingham Were you ever involved in the struggles that were going on around here? Cunningham states that at the time of the marches in Birmingham, she focused on her employment and financial needs. However, she participated in the bus boycott following Rosa Park's arrest. King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Parks, Rosa, 1913-2005 Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama 956 Working at UAB You started working at UAB? Cunningham describes her work experience at UAB Hospital in the Environmental Services department as the assistant to the supervisor. She later was moved to the diabetes hospital. Diabetes--Nursing ; Environmental services UAB Medical Center 1124 Encountering Stereotypes of Alabama Did you and your family ever consider leaving Alabama? Cunningham recounts the times she went to California to visit her brother, and the discrimination she faced, especially with people telling her that she was not stereotypical of someone from Alabama. Birmingham (Ala.) ; California ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Selma (Ala.) Discrimination 1332 Barriers to Voter Registration When did you register to vote? Cunningham recounts how in 1952 she successfully registered to vote, which involved having knowledge of the Alabama area as well as certain active political figures. She also details the changes she has seen in Bessemer, especially in administration. Bessemer's Voters' League ; Howard, Asbury ; Poll tax Bessemer (Ala.) ; Voter registration 1647 The Ku Klux Klan in Bessemer Was the Klan active in Bessemer? Cunningham states that, while the Klan had a presence in Bessemer, she never had a direct encounter with any of the members. Bessemer (Ala.) Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) 1763 Union Organizations Did you ever remember an organization called Mind Mill and Smelter Worker's Union? Cunningham recounts how members of the mine unions were treated poorly, including being beaten ; she also discusses how Asbury Howard was attacked in Bessemer. Howard, Asbury ; Mind Mill ; Smelter Worker's Union Iron and steel workers--Labor unions 2020 The Importance of Family and Community I had gone down to Pipe Shop to school. Cunningham talks about how she secured an education for her children and inspired them to have a good work ethic. She also speaks about a friend, Freda Hall, with whom Cunningham spent time in the hospital for a time. Children's Hospital (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Children--Hospital care ; Hall, Freda African American families 2273 Political Alignment Back when--Fob James and all those people come along, I used to have a lot of conversations with one of my employees about him, but I told that I was a Democrat and that's the way I'm staying. Cunningham identifies as a Democrat and talks about her memories of growing up under the Hoover and Roosevelt administrations. Democrat ; Hoover, Herbert, 1874-1964 ; James, Fob, 1934- ; Republican ; Roosevelt, Franklin D. (Franklin Delano), 1882-1945 Political parties 2430 Living Through the Great Depression You actually lived through the Depression. Cunningham describes her life during the Great Depression and how her grandparents provided for her. She also talks about different radio shows that she and her husband would listen to. Amos 'n' Andy (Radio program) ; Shadow (Radio program) Great Depression 2736 Traveling the World &amp ; Experiences with Transportation You have seen the world? Cunningham recalls her domestic and international travels, including many American states, the Bahamas, and Canada. She also speaks about her experiences with traveling in streetcars, and when she purchased her own vehicle. Atlanta (Ga.) ; California--Description and travel ; Canada ; Cosby, Bill, 1937- ; Cosby, Ennis William ; Detroit (Mich.) ; Las Vegas (Nev.) ; Nassau (Bahamas) ; New Orleans (La.) African American women travelers ; Bus travel ; International travel 3198 Political Leaders &amp ; the Birmingham Community What do you think about Obama? Cunningham expresses her opinion on former presidents Barack Obama and Bill Clinton, as well as Hillary Clinton. She then details her involvement in the Birmingham community and the jobs and friends she has made. Clinton, Bill, 1946- ; Clinton, Hillary Rodham ; Obama, Barack American political leaders ; Community life--United States 3527 Conclusion of the Interview Well, alright, that's great. I appreciate you taking the time out just to tell me about your story and that's good. Conclusion of the Interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history interview Oral History Johnnie Cunningham describes growing up in Bessemer before getting involved with the Movement. She was firmly committed to selective buying and raising her children to be active as well. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Jonnie M. Cunningham for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I&#039 ; m Dr. Horace Huntley ; today&#039 ; s date is November 19, 2008. I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule and welcome to the Institute. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Birmingham or in Bessemer? CUNNINGHAM: I was born in Bessemer, Alabama on February 22, 1926. I was raised in Bessemer. HUNTLEY: Raised in Bessemer, went to Dunbar High School. Did you have brothers and sisters, how many brothers and sisters did you have? CUNNINGHAM: My mother had one child and he was four years old and he left--my grandparents had us until he was about 17 and that&#039 ; s when our grandmother died. He was 15 and I was 17. When he turned 17 he joined the Navy and that was his life, out there in California after he got out the-- HUNTLEY: So, made a career? CUNNINGHAM: Not a career ; but, that&#039 ; s when he retired out there in San Diego, California. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s a beautiful place. CUNNINGHAM: Oh, I know that. HUNTLEY: Were your parents from Bessemer? CUNNINGHAM: Originally as far as I know from listening to conversations, my mother and grandparents were from down in Autaugaville, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Oh okay. CUNNINGHAM: That&#039 ; s all I know about it. HUNTLEY: Your grandmother raised you? CUNNINGHAM: Grandmother and my grandfather raised me. Not my mother&#039 ; s father, but my grandmother&#039 ; s husband. HUNTLEY: Growing up in Bessemer, what part of Bessemer did you grow up in? CUNNINGHAM: They called it North Bessemer. It says north, but it&#039 ; s off on 19th Street, that&#039 ; s where I went when I was eight years old. I was living in the vicinity of the Dunbar High School. My grandmother lifted me over the back fence and I ran into the back door to Ms. Warren. HUNTLEY: What was that like, going to Dunbar? Did you go to Dunbar all the way through? CUNNINGHAM: No, I did not finish school-- HUNTLEY: But you started first grade there? CUNNINGHAM: Yes and a little while I went to the Pipe Shop School and then I got into junior high school, I went back to Dunbar. HUNTLEY: What was it like growing in Bessemer, Alabama? CUNNINGHAM: To me, I don&#039 ; t have any--we knew who we were, where we were. But, I don&#039 ; t recall a lot of stuff that a lot of people say they remembered. Because I always--like I said, meet White families and things and I started--my grandmother worked around them. They were just people to me and back then, everybody had a hard time, I guess. But, I don&#039 ; t recall my brother and I as having a hard time because two old people done everything they could for us. I don&#039 ; t know a lot about a lot of stuff like that. But, you know where you stood. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did you grandmother and your grandfather do? CUNNINGHAM: Well, my grandfather worked for Berman Brothers and they had a scraplike stuff, over where the Pullman plant is today, it only--when I was a child and can remember, it extended only to 25th Street and 5th Ave. There were some slag dumps out there and they had iron or something like--look like silver like and they called it like managese iron or something like that. So, my granddaddy would dynamite the little spots where they were using a steam shovel like to remove the slag. They put it on a dump truck and they would take it to somebody and they people would knock the slag part off one side. I was just in their life like that. My grandmother was doing like domestic work and stuff like that. HUNTLEY: You say your mother died early? CUNNINGHAM: Yes, at the age of 20. I turned 5, she died like August and I was four when she died and I turned five the following year in February. A lot of people say that I can&#039 ; t remember stuff when I was five years old. I may not be able to remember stuff, but I know about stuff because it was always out and I do remember. HUNTLEY: My grand daddy died when I was six and I remember it vividly. CUNNINGHAM: I can remember when we were kids and things. Like I say, we had good times because nobody anything. Dad-D, is what I called my grand daddy, he always told us stories and things. He told us that he had a sixth grade education at that time and he taught us a lot of things. When we started school, we already knew. HUNTLEY: You were already prepared? CUNNINGHAM: Right. My little brother--I call him my brother, he was never in the first grade, he started school in the second grade and then I went to school a little earlier. After I told my grandmother I was ready to go and we didn&#039 ; t have birth certificates and things at that time and she lifted me over the back fence that divided our house and Dunbar and I went in the back door. HUNTLEY: So, you were right there? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about going to school at Dunbar? CUNNINGHAM: I can remember the first concert I was in at Dunbar. HUNTLEY: What did you do? CUNNINGHAM: We had a play, as we used to call it. Ms. Wright--at that time, she was a young woman. I don&#039 ; t know whether she had graduated or not, but she was our music teacher. We had done a scene like you take the high road I&#039 ; ll take the low road that was one of the songs. I remember my friends and things, everybody were friends at that time. I see some of them every once in a while. HUNTLEY: Did you have any favorite teachers? CUNNINGHAM: Well, Ms. Warren was my favorite teacher ; that was my first grade teacher. At that time, one teacher was teaching everything. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. You didn&#039 ; t pass classes. CUNNINGHAM: As I gone on, when I left from Dunbar and when we moved from that area and went over to 19th Street and we went to the Pipe Shop School and I did have some very---I was about in the third or fourth at that time. I have some real favorite teachers down to the Pipe Shop and there was Ms. Spates(sp?) and Ms. McKinney and my favorite teacher was Ms. Odom, she was our English teacher. We had another teacher, Ms. Bolden, taught us Geography. They don&#039 ; t teach kids Geography in school now, I don&#039 ; t think. HUNTLEY: I don&#039 ; t think so either. CUNNINGHAM: Then, I had a Math teacher, Mr. Curtis was his name. Then, when I went back to Dunbar--I can&#039 ; t remember his name right now. Anyway, he taught some of my kids after teaching me, because I was a young mother. HUNTLEY: So, you went to--what grade did you finish? CUNNINGHAM: I finished at the tenth grade over at Dunbar. HUNTLEY: What did you do after you finished school? Did you start--- CUNNINGHAM: I was working way before then because I started out by the time I was 12 years, like domestic work. I&#039 ; d take care of kids. I had done that for a long time and then I used to go on vacation and that&#039 ; s why I traveled so much, working for a family and I&#039 ; d go-- HUNTLEY: Go on vacation with them? Where did you go? CUNNINGHAM: Whew! HUNTLEY: All over. CUNNINGHAM: I&#039 ; d been all over. I done a little boys&#039 ; --little Manfrey boys up there when I was about 12, the only thing I did--in the summertime, when I was out of school. I would keep them and we&#039 ; ll go down to what they call Westlake Mall down there and then we&#039 ; ll go over to the other mall for the rest of the day. As I grew older-- HUNTLEY: How did you get there ; on the bus? CUNNINGHAM: Not at that time, it was just walking distance. As I grew older I had done domestic work, like I say, up until I was &#039 ; 71, when I went to work at the University. But, I had worked for some of the same families all these years and we&#039 ; d go to Florida and Gulf Shores and everywhere when our children was still-- HUNTLEY: Yes. CUNNINGHAM: Like I told--I had been all up and down that coast. HUNTLEY: So, the families treated you very well? CUNNINGHAM: Oh yea, I had gone to California and visited. It was right after all the stuff we had here. And they asked, &quot ; What are you all gonna do back there?&quot ; I said, &quot ; We don&#039 ; t what we needed to do back there.&quot ; They said, &quot ; Well you have to go around to the back door and all that stuff.&quot ; I said, &quot ; No, nobody had ever told me I had to go in the back door.&quot ; I was treated nicely because I always treated people nice. HUNTLEY: When you would go to Florida and Gulf Shores, usually on weekends or is it vacations? CUNNINGHAM: Some of my kids were small at that time. But, where I lived wasn&#039 ; t nothing but families and you don&#039 ; t find those families anymore. But, I had no problem in taking care of my kids because I was working taking care of them. HUNTLEY: Did your children ever play with their children? Did you ever take them to the houses with you? CUNNINGHAM: My children would spend whole months at the time over at Dr. Chase&#039 ; s, when they didn&#039 ; t have children per se, but we would stay over there ; like they would go out to Jackson Hole, Wyoming(sp?), all those areas out there. I would take my children over there. HUNTLEY: Right, out to Hoover-- CUNNINGHAM: Rocky Ridge is off 280. HUNTLEY: Right. CUNNINGHAM: I&#039 ; d take them over there and we&#039 ; d spend the whole summer over there. They&#039 ; d been exposed to them and like--Ms. Carol ; I know you don&#039 ; t know who she is. They don&#039 ; t know color or nothing like that. Just like I don&#039 ; t let somebody do something to me. HUNTLEY: Were you ever involved in the struggles that were going on around here? CUNNINGHAM: Well, I was involved in a way because I had to--not in Birmingham per se, but what I done with my struggle was keep my money in my pocket. I was asked by one of my employers, &quot ; Why you&#039 ; re not down there marching?&quot ; I told him, &quot ; That&#039 ; s not my bag, marching. I&#039 ; ll tell you one thing, I don&#039 ; t want nobody spitting on me, turning no water on me.&quot ; I&#039 ; m not afraid of the dogs, you know, but you know if you have a dog and tell him what to do, he&#039 ; ll do it. Dogs weren&#039 ; t my problem and I&#039 ; m not gonna say I&#039 ; m not gonna hit back and that&#039 ; s not what Dr. King wanted. He wanted a nonviolent thing, I&#039 ; m not a violent person, but I wasn&#039 ; t gonna take somebody&#039 ; s abuse, I ain&#039 ; t taking nothing. But, I told him what I will do, let him know that I wasn&#039 ; t making what I should have been making. I&#039 ; ll take these few dollars you give me and I&#039 ; ll take it down there and give it to them. HUNTLEY: You would tell him that? CUNNINGHAM: Oh yea. HUNTLEY: Did they respond to that? CUNNINGHAM: He said I was crazy anyway. HUNTLEY: He didn&#039 ; t expect anything different from you. CUNNINGHAM: That&#039 ; s what I told him. We were riding the bus home. Then, I would ride from Bessemer to Birmingham and catch the 45 and when I get over here, I would catch 51 and go out on Rocky Ridge Road, that&#039 ; s where I was working at when the struggle was going on. But, I didn&#039 ; t spend my money in Birmingham and I didn&#039 ; t spend it in Bessemer--really in Birmingham because of what was going on. I would buy my food over at Rocky Ridge Road and bring it on home when we had a ride. But, then after Ms. Parks sat down, we all walked for 14 months and I still went to work on Monday Wednesdays and Fridays because we had some strong me. They would pick us up like if we&#039 ; re out on the highway, they&#039 ; ll pick us up and bring us to Birmingham then somebody would take us on over, just like Ms. Parks. Then, they would come there and pick us up and bring us back. We didn&#039 ; t have a problem ; then, we finally got somebody that would make a regular around there for us. HUNTLEY: Did you work everyday? CUNNINGHAM: I worked everyday, but not over the mountain. I had different people that I worked for, good families. HUNTLEY: You started working at UAB? CUNNINGHAM: In 1971, I went to work at UAB. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to go over there? CUNNINGHAM: Because Richard was starting school, my husband was a diabetic. I had three little granddaughters in St. Francis. My husband worked at the Pipe Shop, but at that time all our children was grown up. But, we raised six grandchildren. HUNTLEY: So, you had to feed some mouths? CUNNINGHAM: Where there are a lot of people, there&#039 ; s always a lot of food. I fed mine and everybody else that come along. HUNTLEY: So, what did you do at UAB? CUNNINGHAM: I was in Environmental Services and I was assistant to the supervisor. As a matter of fact I did her work and mine too. They had no problem with me. Like I said, they sent out a survey asking why did we think our job was important. I told why I thought mine was important, because any virus or anything got loose, Environmental Services was gonna be responsible for that. When the doctors couldn&#039 ; t do what I had--- HUNTLEY: What was your job? CUNNINGHAM: Actually, I started off like doing beds and different stuff like that. You know the things that Environmental Services do. After that, I was sent over to--when they built the diabetes hospital, I was sent over there with a group of seven people and that was my job until I retired, overseeing everything over and helping with the work. My job description said: Assist to the supervisor. I had a supervisor for about eight hours per week. Then, I had to do all the paperwork and stuff like that and I assisted with seeing to the work being done. Like I used to tell them, &quot ; If you don&#039 ; t do it, it&#039 ; s gonna fall on my shoulders.&quot ; I didn&#039 ; t have a problem because that was a job too and I was glad of it. It helped me, Richard went to school over there for two years after I had started working. As a matter of fact, I started in &#039 ; 71 and he graduated in &#039 ; 70. I met a lot of good friends, made a lot of friends and everything. HUNTLEY: Did you and your family ever consider leaving Alabama? CUNNINGHAM: No. HUNTLEY: You say you had a brother that was in California? CUNNINGHAM: My brother was in the Navy and that was just my brother. It was alright. HUNTLEY: Did you ever visit him in California? CUNNINGHAM: I went out there over 50 years. HUNTLEY: Is that right? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. HUNTLEY: How was that? CUNNINGHAM: Like I told him--I went out there one time--when I first went there, it was just a little hills and stuff like that. I didn&#039 ; t see any freeways and nothing like that. I enjoyed out there, but it was discrimination everywhere you went. I say that today. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s true. CUNNINGHAM: I had met this guy, he went home with my brother and his wife and I went out one night and we had gone to--a bunch of chief petty officers. Then, the lady walked up to me and asked me, &quot ; Are you for real?&quot ; HUNTLEY: What did she mean by that? CUNNINGHAM: I&#039 ; m gonna tell you in a minute. I said, &quot ; Meaning?&quot ; She said, &quot ; You don&#039 ; t look like anybody from Alabama, nor do you act like it.&quot ; I said, &quot ; How do people from Alabama act?&quot ; I reminded her that the people she saw going across that bridge down in Selma/Montgomery March. I said, &quot ; Everybody don&#039 ; t look like that, a lot of those people did sit ins.&quot ; They wanted to know about our bathroom facilities and blah blah, just a whole lot of stupid stuff. When I finally realized what she was trying to say, I went over to the bar and got me a little brandy, I don&#039 ; t know what she had in her glass, but I know what I had in mine. I told her that everybody in Alabama don&#039 ; t look like those people. I told her, &quot ; You will never see me walking around looking like that, if I was going across the Pettus Bridge, I wouldn&#039 ; t be dressed up like that. A lot of people were sit ins. HUNTLEY: People have a tendency to sort of stereotype people from Alabama. CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, but they didn&#039 ; t want to believe that I was from Alabama. I just wanted to know what people from Alabama looked like, that&#039 ; s what wanted to know. HUNTLEY: They want to see somebody ragged. CUNNINGHAM: Then, the guy--he didn&#039 ; t know anything about--but one funeral home in Birmingham and I can&#039 ; t think of the name, it was an old funeral home. He knew somebody from there. He was the person that asked then about what are we gonna do. I said, &quot ; We will not tear up downtown Birmingham because they gonna stop us before we get there.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Not like you guys doing in the Watts area out here.&quot ; We had a big conversation because I read up on all that stuff. HUNTLEY: When did you register to vote? CUNNINGHAM: 1952. HUNTLEY: What was that experience like? CUNNINGHAM: Questionnaires at that time--asking if you if you&#039 ; re an bona fide resident of Alabama, about the county and how long had you been there, if you say you were from a different county or something, you put down a different number, that would disqualify you. How many senators, congressman, representatives and things we had. The thing that still is vivid in my mind, we had to tell them the name of a woman senator out of Chicago, her name was Ms. Smith, I&#039 ; ll never forget that and that was back in 1952. We paid poll tax. HUNTLEY: Did you pass the first time you went? CUNNINGHAM: I passed the first time I went. HUNTLEY: How did that--because they would have all kinds of different ways to disqualify you. CUNNINGHAM: That&#039 ; s what I&#039 ; m saying now, if you didn&#039 ; t know these answers they had down there-- that&#039 ; s why they disqualified you. But, we knew. HUNTLEY: Did you know Asberry Howard? CUNNINGHAM: Yes, I know Asberry Howard and his father too. HUNTLEY: His father started the Bessemer Voters&#039 ; League and they were very instrumental in getting people registered. CUNNINGHAM: I knew them real well because they lived over in South Bessemer and we lived on the North side. HUNTLEY: Mr. Howard--the Senior, he became a state legislature. CUNNINGHAM: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of the campaigns? CUNNINGHAM: Mostly at that time, I did not--well, I would go down everytime we have a meeting, I like to go to the churches and stuff like to see what we were gonna do. I had to work and didn&#039 ; t have time and then at that time, you would need transportation to get to and from. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. CUNNINGHAM: Mr. Cunningham also qualified in 1952. HUNTLEY: Did he? Okay. So, you guys were carrying the banner then? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were there other people in your neighborhood? Was that an effort? CUNNINGHAM: Well, we had a few that did. The rest of them--they weren&#039 ; t ready until the voter registrars. The Government sent those people out. I filled out my questionnaire. HUNTLEY: Was there a question when you went to work, about your voting? CUNNINGHAM: I had problems working at the laundry--my two girlfriends and it was like a self- service laundry. This one lady asked me did I qualify to vote because I wanted to mix with White people. I told her I was mixing with them all my life, it wasn&#039 ; t a big deal with me and it&#039 ; s still not a big deal. HUNTLEY: She&#039 ; s questioning you about why would a Black person want to vote. CUNNINGHAM: Not because I wanted to be associated or be with them. I&#039 ; ve always been proud of myself. Tell my children they&#039 ; re as good as the best and better than the rest and that way you don&#039 ; t have to worry about it. HUNTLEY: I think all of our parents-- CUNNINGHAM: I have a lot of, if you want to say White friends. I know one particular lady now, when she came from Chattanooga, TN to work at the hospital. We&#039 ; re still real good friends right today. Her son had this condo down in Biloxi, MS and we went down there to spend a week at a time. HUNTLEY: How has Bessemer changed over? CUNNINGHAM: Bessemer&#039 ; s changed a lot ; it was Bessemer. I can remember a lot of things that went on-- HUNTLEY: Like what for instance? CUNNINGHAM: I remember when we had a slot machine right out there on 19th Street in a grocery store. HUNTLEY: Is that right? CUNNINGHAM: Then, administration and stuff have changed around and different incidents and things happened there you know, all that stuff is still in my mind. I remember if somebody had mailed a bomb downtown Bessemer and that was like in 1978 because it was the same year my husband died. HUNTLEY: Is that right? CUNNINGHAM: Just a lot of stuff. HUNTLEY: Was the Klan active in Bessemer? CUNNINGHAM: Well, they were but I never thought about no Klans. HUNTLEY: Did you ever see them? CUNNINGHAM: I did see--at one time it was later on, there was a field out there off the highway in Bessemer that they had a meeting out there. I remember a man in the drug store asking me where I was going and I was going back over where we had moved from, over there in the projects on the north side and to get some shoes. He asked, &quot ; Where you going this time of night, you see them people out there.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Those people are tending to their business and I got to tend to mine.&quot ; The bus came along and I got on the bus and went on and did what I had to do and come on back. They didn&#039 ; t bother me, because I still feel today, anybody hide your face to do anything--I never had problems with them doing anything to me or my family or nothing like that. HUNTLEY: They met in that same place? CUNNINGHAM: It was kind of a rally for some reason, I don&#039 ; t know. HUNTLEY: Was that consistently done, the place where they normally meet? CUNNINGHAM: This was one time that I remember, but I always heard my granddaddy talking about them. HUNTLEY: You ever remember them coming through the neighborhood after one of those meetings or anything? They never drove through there like in a parade or nothing? CUNNINGHAM: I don&#039 ; t remember, like I said, the only thing I saw--the group I saw was out there in that field having some type of rally. HUNTLEY: Was that out on the superhighway? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. That&#039 ; s when you come under that first viaduct, coming back this way. HUNTLEY: Did you ever remember an organization called Mind Mill and Smelter Worker&#039 ; s Union? CUNNINGHAM: I remember about the-- HUNTLEY: Was your granddaddy or your husband a member of a union? CUNNINGHAM: Not until Jimbo went to work at the Pipe Shop. I remember my granddaddy talking about what they done to the people that belonged to the union and things like that. I can remember him vividly talking about stuff like that. Looks like he told me one time--he told us so much stuff that&#039 ; s still in my mind. Then, they were talking about the unions and what happened to the people that belonged to the union and things like that. HUNTLEY: What did they say that happen? CUNNINGHAM: They would beat the people up if they go into the mines and something like that, they would do something to do stop them from coming out and all that stuff. HUNTLEY: Did anybody in your family ever work in the mines? CUNNINGHAM: No. HUNTLEY: At Pipe Shop? CUNNINGHAM: No, my husband worked as pipe blower and my stepfather was also a pipe blower. But mine didn&#039 ; t cross no picket line if that&#039 ; s what you want to know. At one time, the union did--they weren&#039 ; t gonna give them this, they gonna lose their jobs and all that stuff and he told her, &quot ; I just have to lose mine because I have a family to think about and I can&#039 ; t do nothing like that.&quot ; But, he wasn&#039 ; t gonna do it anyway. HUNTLEY: There were some tough times in Bessemer with the union organization and stuff. CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, it was tough times all around with a lot of stuff-- HUNTLEY: And that&#039 ; s when Mr. Howard was involved. I met him once or twice. CUNNINGHAM: Asberry Howard. HUNTLEY: Yeah, but I talked to son--in fact I&#039 ; ve interviewed his son. But, they were real instrumental-- CUNNINGHAM: We have a lot of people--like I tell people all the time, you don&#039 ; t know what we know. A lot of times, what we know, if you keep it within and do to me, that&#039 ; s what make things work. I know enough to write a book to put Peyton&#039 ; s Place to shame because some of this stuff is personal and some stuff I was trusted with. I&#039 ; m not a backslider. HUNTLEY: You know, I&#039 ; m just thinking, talking about Asberry Howard, he was attacked in Bessemer, do you remember when that happened? CUNNINGHAM: I can remember when he was, yes. But, I can&#039 ; t-- HUNTLEY: He was at the courthouse and they attacked him-- CUNNINGHAM: I know about it but it&#039 ; s just not--I knew he was attacked, since you brought it up. A lot of stuff that happen-- HUNTLEY: A lot of things happened all over this area. CUNNINGHAM: Oh yeah, and Attorney Shores was at Dunbar and he married Ms. Juan, he married one of the sisters and things, I remember all of that. HUNTLEY: Did you know, I think--he worked at Dunbar, his name was Huntley-- CUNNINGHAM: That was way back then-- HUNTLEY: He left and went to DC and he became an Architect, but I think he taught at Dunbar and this may have been after you. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, maybe so. I had gone down to Pipe Shop to school. But, all my kids went to Dunbar School, not all of them did--five of them went to first grades and things up to Dunbar, because I sent the other kids St. Francis to sister and them because it was a safe place while I was gone to work. People would say that I thought they were too good. It wasn&#039 ; t that, it was just convenient for me. At that particular time--and they got good training, some of them used it and some of them didn&#039 ; t. But, it was their prerogative. Like Richard and Yvonne, they first went to the Lutheran school when they were like four or five years old or something like. That was convenient for me. HUNTLEY: Where would you transfer? You would ride the bus from Bessemer and-- CUNNINGHAM: Downtown Birmingham and I usually catch my bus--51 on 18th Street. HUNTLEY: Actually different places where people would congregate to catch the bus to go across the mountains. CUNNINGHAM: I remember all those cold days. But, I barely did stop, I just kept on going. Just like I tell the kids now, you gotta do what you gotta do. When they come complaining, even the little ones, you gotta do what you gotta do. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. CUNNINGHAM: See, I&#039 ; ve been a lot of children&#039 ; s lives. Because like I said, I was raised a motherless child in an area where we lived, it was by--I don&#039 ; t know how many families were there. I have some of them living today. I have this one friend Freda Hall, whose in New York, I talked with her just the other day. She was a motherless child and she come down-- they brought her down from Chicago and I loved Freda. Freda was a little petite and she had rheumatic fever and they had to do surgery on her over at the Children&#039 ; s Hospital and she didn&#039 ; t have anybody to come and see about her but Johnnie Mae. But, I would do my Sundays to go visit with Freda and when I went to visit her in New York, the lady said, &quot ; You don&#039 ; t have to me who you are, you&#039 ; re Johnnie Mae.&quot ; Like I said, I worked with the families and things and I would bring clothes home. I&#039 ; ve know Freda just to take just a suit or something. At that time, she&#039 ; d cut out her a paper pattern and redo the fabric, you know all that stuff like that. Like I said, I don&#039 ; t carry myself as having a hard time. I just done good things and like I said, you can be nice to anybody and people will know how far to go with you. HUNTLEY: Exactly, they&#039 ; ll respect you and you demand respect and you will get it. CUNNINGHAM: Back when--Fob James and all those people come along, I used to have a lot of conversations with one of my employees about him, but I told that I was a Democrat and that&#039 ; s the way I&#039 ; m staying. Because my granddaddy said that Republican--see I&#039 ; m all back from Hoover, but they never cared nothing about Blacks and White folks. HUNTLEY: You came up then, through Hoover, Roosevelt. CUNNINGHAM: I can remember about--I said, about like I was four or five years old, my granddaddy--like I told you--Hoover was the President. TCI used to have a plant in Bessemer, long, long years ago. They moved to like Fairfield and Westfield and Dad D would go up there and get that old hard coke, get some tar and what kind of wood--he had a fire grate and he built him a sort of a round this that he could push in the grate(?) to build his fire behind that and that fire didn&#039 ; t go out until it was time to pull it the whole winter. Because what he would do, he&#039 ; d make the fire and then he would throw this old hard coke over behind and then he would pull it to the front. I remember all that stuff and to me it was good days for us, nobody had anything. HUNTLEY: You actually lived through the Depression. CUNNINGHAM: I did. Like I said, I remember when my grandmother would get up and cook breakfast--he worked for Berman Brothers in Birmingham and he would have to go out and catch the street car and ride into Birmingham in the morning times. He would get off up in Brighton and walk on home and just put 14 cents-- HUNTLEY: ..save that. CUNNINGHAM: But, I remember not having but two dresses when school started, we were just glad to get a pair of shoes and things like that. My first long coat--I was about 12, but I wasn&#039 ; t cold because my grandmothers dressed us warm and stuff like that. I didn&#039 ; t have a bad childhood. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. We had a lot of people--because they sort of insulated us. CUNNINGHAM: I still don&#039 ; t have any bad memories. But, those people were good to us, I loved them. As my children came along, my granddaddy was there to help them and Richard and them were smart kids, they were ready when they started school. The homework they had to do and my Dad D would gather a bunch of children around and he would tell us stories and he would teach us times and kids today don&#039 ; t have time table. HUNTLEY: We got all this TV now. We didn&#039 ; t have TV back then and families got together and talked and told stories. CUNNINGHAM: Oh yea. My husband and I always loved sports and we would listen to the baseball games and things like on the radio and when he started working at the Pipe Shop--when you know California games is later than ours. It would be about 11:00 and I would say, &quot ; Man, you better go to sleep because you have to go to work in the morning.&quot ; We&#039 ; d listen to The Shadow and then, if you listen long enough, you gonna see all this stuff. A lot of the stories that people listen to, we listened to them on the radio and they&#039 ; re not my bag, it&#039 ; s just everyday stuff. HUNTLEY: Amos and Andy started on the radio didn&#039 ; t they? CUNNINGHAM: Yes, they started on the radio. I used to listen to all of them. I think today if the children--if I thought the TV stations in those people like that for putting all that stuff on and we as viewers, if we could turn it off and not listen to it--or by the products that&#039 ; s sponsoring it, we wouldn&#039 ; t have it. Because, some of the stuff I see, we&#039 ; re just flipping through and I had a little grandson, he&#039 ; s 14--I went in there one day and said, &quot ; You don&#039 ; t watch that in my house.&quot ; HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s the way you have to do it. CUNNINGHAM: You might can watch it somewhere else, but you don&#039 ; t watch that here. The other little grandson, his mother was there and he told her, &quot ; Uh uh, you can&#039 ; t do that in here.&quot ; See, he was used to being with my daddy and listening to spiritual songs and stuff like that. Getting back to the times and things--I&#039 ; ve been through a lot, but the good outweighed the bad. I&#039 ; m still looking forward to going on and helping out. I can remember, getting back to the Civil Rights thing like then, if we would go home, just like we were going to work, we&#039 ; d come home and you go in the store, you come out with a package, they were gonna take that package away from you. But, I decided I wasn&#039 ; t gonna spend my money in Birmingham and I didn&#039 ; t do it. HUNTLEY: You know it bypassed Birmingham. CUNNINGHAM: But, I rode the bus everyday through there ; to and from until the Boycott come on when Ms. Parks sat down. I&#039 ; ve had good times, my good times outweighed my bad times and I like I told you, I traveled, I&#039 ; ve been everywhere like the old sailor people used to tell the story about I&#039 ; ve been from coast to coast from pillar to poles. HUNTLEY: You have seen the world? CUNNINGHAM: My first trip was to California, was--and, it was segregated out there at that time, in 1948 was the--December 1948, Tennessee was coming into town, I was catching Greyhound Bus to play Alabama. I remember that real good and I went out there and it wasn&#039 ; t the San Diego it is today. By the way, my brother was the first--this is what my nephews tell me, the first Black cement truck driver, you know that spreaded that cement on the roads out there. When I first went out there, it wasn&#039 ; t any roads. HUNTLEY: All of that has been built up since then and now you wouldn&#039 ; t know it. CUNNINGHAM: I&#039 ; ve been there since my brother passed, 2001 or something like that. HUNTLEY: I think I may have been there in 2000 ; my son lives in Los Angeles. CUNNINGHAM: Does he? I have a lot of friends in Los Angeles, my husband have cousins out there. I think I have a nephew that lives in Compton now. I&#039 ; ve been--see, when I go to San Diego and I&#039 ; ll catch the bus and I&#039 ; ll ride up LA and spend two or three days there. I really don&#039 ; t like to fly. I&#039 ; ve never really caught a flight out of Los Angeles. HUNTLEY: Is that right. CUNNINGHAM: I would always go from San Diego to Los Angeles, get the bus and come back and leave San Diego. Where that 5, I think it&#039 ; s 105 or something like that where--what&#039 ; s his name&#039 ; s son-- HUNTLEY: Bill Cosby? CUNNINGHAM: Bill Cosby&#039 ; s son was killed ; I know exactly where that spot is because that&#039 ; s the entrance where you get back on the San Diego freeway coming back. HUNTLEY: You know about it. CUNNINGHAM: Oh yea. I had the privilege to go to--when did I go, 2004 or something, I went to the Bahamas for my first time. HUNTLEY: Nassau? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. I had a chance to go to Detroit. See, we had a social and savings club and we went to different places like for things--I had my foster family that we clung to. When we have family reunions, we&#039 ; d go to different states and things and we went to--I think the last two times we were in the Detroit. I guess it&#039 ; s 30 minutes out of Detroit, we went to Canada on the boat, been all to Las Vegas. First trip when we started leaving, we went down to Atlanta to the Underground and stayed there when we would go on trips. We left there and started going to New Orleans and I don&#039 ; t know--we would go every other month. We had a nice group of ladies, we all grew up together. HUNTLEY: I know that must have been fun. CUNNINGHAM: Yea, it was fun. Then, after we stopped going to New Orleans, we decided that we were gonna book us a flight and go to Las Vegas. But, we had a lot of fun doing stuff like that with a group of people. Then, I never had to worry about the children because it was always somebody there to take care of us. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s good. CUNNINGHAM: But, I done the best I could with them and taught them the best I could. HUNTLEY: Well, you done a good job. CUNNINGHAM: Like I tell everybody, even myself, &quot ; I&#039 ; m Mrs. Johnnie Mae Cunningham ; I&#039 ; m as much as anybody is.&quot ; I might come to your house and do your work, but still, I&#039 ; m Ms. Cunningham. HUNTLEY: We are all human beings. CUNNINGHAM: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Well, Ms. Cunningham, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule, giving me your history and nobody can give your history but you. CUNNINGHAM: Oh yea, I know all about--we didn&#039 ; t get to this part about Shores&#039 ; houses, off Center Street when all those were bombed. Martin Luther King was in Birmingham and they brought him to Bessemer to the city jail for security and all that stuff. I kept up with all that stuff. HUNTLEY: All during your time. CUNNINGHAM: He&#039 ; s right up in here. I remember as a young adult growing, at one time--the streetcar business ; they had a caboose on the streetcar. You paid the men your fare and you would go get in the car behind--sometimes, he was so lowdown, he&#039 ; d pull on off and leave you. Then, I remember the boards and things like that. I remember when after the 14 months, they started the bus back, I had gone up there in Midfield and I had my daughter with me and I was tired this day. They had moved the boards and things and I was standing out there and I had no business standing up there. She said, &quot ; Momma, do you know what you&#039 ; re doing?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going up here to sit down.&quot ; I went right up on there and sat down. But, now, I tell you what, my preference is not sitting at the front of the bus now. I like to sit maybe in the middle part and when they started back after I started working, I would go to the rear because I&#039 ; m crocheting and stuff like getting me a good seat back there and stuff like that-- HUNTLEY: It&#039 ; s convenient for you. CUNNINGHAM: Convenient for me. I didn&#039 ; t start driving until I was 45. HUNTLEY: Is that right? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. I bought my first car when I went to work at the University, the little old credit union and got me a car. HUNTLEY: You could get around then. CUNNINGHAM: Still driving a little 1987 Nova. HUNTLEY: Is that right? CUNNINGHAM: I don&#039 ; t try driving too much now. But, if it&#039 ; s an emergency, I will go straight to University Hospital if I had to. But, I only go to the store or to church and if I wanted to visit old friend--most of my close friends are gone. I go to The Foundry and to the Thrift Store and different places like that. I love going to the grocery store because when I sent the kids to buy, they don&#039 ; t buy what I need and what I want to cook with like I&#039 ; m gonna do my Thanksgiving dinner and they come over with all kinds of stuff. I say, &quot ; No, just take me to the store because I know what I like. I still enjoy cooking and enjoy feeding people ; they could come out the street and eat at my house. The only person I see is the person that try to do me harm and I&#039 ; m thinking because they turn pink, it really don&#039 ; t make a difference with me. Like I told them, I been around doctors, lawyers the Indian chief and everything else, so I know people. I was fortunate enough to meet a lot of friends and things from countries and things, working over at UAB. HUNTLEY: They&#039 ; re from everywhere. CUNNINGHAM: Oh yea. HUNTLEY: What do you think about Obama? CUNNINGHAM: I think it&#039 ; s wonderful, but I would tell the truth in the primary, I rode it for the girl. But, I knew what I was gonna do, see I had my chance to vote for her then, had she won, I still would have had the chance to vote for her. But, I&#039 ; m glad--I don&#039 ; t know if it really ever sunk in real good about it, but I am glad, I didn&#039 ; t know, I&#039 ; ve been through 13 presidents. He makes 13 and some of them I could talk about, what put us in the predicament we&#039 ; re in now from now on. That cowboy wasn&#039 ; t the president ; he had his momma and daddy backing him, that&#039 ; s my opinion. That&#039 ; s what I call him, cowboy. HUNTLEY: Wasn&#039 ; t he a good president? CUNNINGHAM: No, no, still trying to make cracks you know. The last eight years, we went down. I don&#039 ; t care what anybody say about President Clinton, when the man left, he left some money. The little girl that went into his office, she was a sit-in, that&#039 ; s what I believe. Men are men are some of the little fast gals is fast gals. They&#039 ; ll do anything for a dollar. But, if he and Hillary can straighten it out, nobody can say anything. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s all that&#039 ; s necessary. CUNNINGHAM: I hope the girl do get to be Secretary of State, I hope she make it. She has the ability and they&#039 ; re talking about--that girl is smart, I&#039 ; m talking about Hillary now. She is smart enough to stand up to Bill and tell him what she gonna take and what she don&#039 ; t want. If she don&#039 ; t want it, she don&#039 ; t it. I think the Obama is a lovely family. HUNTLEY: Yes, they are. CUNNINGHAM: I&#039 ; m just praying that none of the ill-minded people don&#039 ; t get to him and that&#039 ; s what had me worried in the beginning. Carolyn said, &quot ; Ma, ain&#039 ; t nothing gonna happen to him.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Sis, Momma don&#039 ; t know that.&quot ; You already had those three threats out there. HUNTLEY: They&#039 ; ll probably be a lot more. CUNNINGHAM: These little skinheads, they caught them up there in Washington-- HUNTLEY: Tennessee. CUNNINGHAM: Out of Tennessee. See, I know all this stuff, I read the paper. Neighbors criticize me, they said--I get up in the morning time, I have a front porch, I get my cup of coffee and my newspaper. They said I don&#039 ; t be reading the newspaper, I be watching them. I read the newspaper, I look at the fashion, and I do food and all this. I started looking at money, all that stuff is to keep your mind off-- HUNTLEY: It keeps your mind active. CUNNINGHAM: A lot of times I would tell people that I have traveled, if I wanted to take somebody to Cleveland, I know exactly where to take them, how to take them, where you turn off to go to Detroit, gone to Cleveland, I know where to go. HUNTLEY: Because you&#039 ; ve been. CUNNINGHAM: I been there, seen that, did that, but I can truthfully say that I have done anything that caused anybody harm that I know of. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s good. CUNNINGHAM: I was talking to my pastor, Reverend Johnson, when they buried my cousin back in summer time and I was saying something--somebody was saying something about age and I told them I was just 28 and then Reverend, he grew up in our church and I said something and he said, &quot ; Ms. Cunningham, the Lord--I said, &quot ; The Lord is keeping me here for something.&quot ; On my good days I&#039 ; m good, on my bad days, I ain&#039 ; t-- HUNTLEY: All of us have good days and bad days. CUNNINGHAM: I&#039 ; ve gone through a lot ; I got hit by a car when I was 34 years old. But I still didn&#039 ; t let that hinder me. HUNTLEY: You just have to keep on going. CUNNINGHAM: Because when was I working at UAB, I needed that job. Jimbo was working four hours a week, Richard was starting school, had girls in school, I had to work. I made clothes and things for them when they were little. HUNTLEY: You&#039 ; re a community person then. CUNNINGHAM: I still am. I have a lot of friends. When I had my 80th birthday down at Bessemer City Hall, down on 3rd Ave, it was about 150 people there. HUNTLEY: Is that right? CUNNINGHAM: Yes. Most of them were young people, my White children and all. HUNTLEY: Well, alright, that&#039 ; s great. I appreciate you taking the time out just to tell me about your story and that&#039 ; s good. CUNNINGHAM: Carolyn--I had told I didn&#039 ; t think I would make it today. She told me I could go. I wanted her to shut her mouth. I think Dr. Huntley would understand if I didn&#039 ; t feel good, I&#039 ; ll see him when he come back. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JCunningham2008.xml JCunningham2008.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Johnnie Cunningham Description An account of the resource Johnnie Cunningham describes growing up in Bessemer before getting involved with the Movement. She was firmly committed to selective buying and raising her children to be active as well. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 20081119C Subject The topic of the resource Voter registration UAB Medical Center Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-11-19 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/b1f6af212795c42e223b12d86849d630.png af420d688ae199f68af7791309908532 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Lewis OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JLewis2005.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Campaign--Georgia--United States Congress Voter Registration--Photo ID OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 November 19, 2005 Congressman John Lewis 20051119L 0:41:44 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Parchman Penitentiary--Mississippi State Penitentiary--Jackson (Miss.) Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.) Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Campaign--Georgia--United States Congress Voter Registration--Photo ID John Lewis Horace Huntley Video 1:|15(10)|33(2)|46(14)|59(14)|74(12)|88(7)|98(1)|111(6)|126(5)|138(4)|153(9)|164(5)|178(9)|190(8)|200(12)|215(2)|225(1)|237(6)|248(9)|262(13)|277(12)|289(6)|303(8)|313(8)|327(2)|338(8)|349(9)|362(6)|374(6)|387(2)|398(1)|410(4)|420(2)|434(7)|444(7)|456(6)|466(3)|476(9)|485(5)|497(5)|510(8) 0 https://youtu.be/mQ2yJfhp508 YouTube video English 10 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Congressman John Lewis for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Interview introduction with Congressman John Lewis 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 31 Family Background Thank you ; it's really an honor to able to just sit with you today. Just let me talk just briefly, I'll ask you briefly about your-you were born in Alabama, is that correct? Congressman John Lewis discusses growing up on a farm in Troy Alabama details his parents' education. African Americans--Agriculture Fisk University ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Pike County (Ala.) ; Troy (Ala.) ; Tuskegee (Ala.) 155 Early Education That background, how did you happen to get to Fisk University? Congressman John Lewis expresses that his inspiration for getting a college education came from Martin Luther King Jr. Brundidge (Ala.) ; Fisk University ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; Parks, Rosa, 1913-2005 ; Pike County (Ala.) ; Troy State University 249 Attending American Baptist Theological Seminary I had my transcripts sent down and I never heard a word from the school, so I wrote a letter to Dr. King and Dr. King invited me to come to Montgomery to see him. Congressman John Lewis talks about attending the American Baptist Theological Seminary for four years before going on to continue his education at Fisk University. American Baptist Theological Seminary Civil rights movement ; Fisk University ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Nashville (Tenn.) 286 Joining the Movement At what point did you start, did you get actively involved with the movement while you were in Nashville? Congressman John Lewis explains how his start in the movement came from an invitation sent from Martin Luther King Jr. to come join them in Montgomery, Alabama. Abernathy, Ralph, 1926-1990 ; Bates, Daisy ; Central Tennessee College. Meharry Medical Department ; Fisk University ; Greyhound buses ; King, Coretta Scott, 1927-2006 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Lawson, James M., 1928- ; Marshall, Thurgood, 1908-1993 ; Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; Parks, Rosa, 1913-2005 ; Smith, Kelly Miller, 1920-1984 ; Troy (Ala.) 440 Attending Nonviolent Workshops and Sit-Ins And I started attending these nonviolent workshops at a little church near Fisk University campus, every Tuesday night a group of students from Fisk University, Meharry medical school, American Baptist, Tennessee State and Vanderbilt started studying the philosophy and the discipline of nonviolence. Congressman John Lewis discusses how he was trained on how to do nonviolent protest while he was going to school in Nashville, Tennessee. African Americans--Segregation ; Nonviolent protest--Civil Rights Movement--Southeast United States ; Sit-ins American Baptist Theological Seminary ; Barry, Marion, 1936- ; Civil Disobedience--South Africa--India--Gandhi, Mahatma (1869-1948) ; Fisk University ; Greensboro Sit-ins, Greensboro, N.C., 1960 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; LaFayette, Bernard, Jr. ; Lawson, James M., 1928- ; Meharry Medical College ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Nash, Diane, 1938- ; Nashville (Tenn.) ; Smith, Kelley ; Tennessee State University ; Vanderbilt University 646 Meeting with SNCC Were you involved with the initial meeting where SNCC was organized and at Shaw? Congressman John Lewis explains how he got involved with SNCC when they hosted their meeting in Atlanta, Georgia. Barry, Marion, 1936- ; Bevill, James, 1959- ; Fisk University ; LaFayette, Bernard, Jr. ; Lawson, James M., 1928- ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; Nash, Diane, 1938- ; Raleigh (N.C.) ; Shaw University ; Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.) 703 Going to Parchman Penitentiary &amp ; Voter Registration Now SNCC went in Mississippi and how was then called SNCC the new abolitionist in dealing with whole question of voter registration, can you just talk just a bit about that? Congressman John Lewis talks about riding a bus into Mississippi for the first time and being arrested, going to Parchman Prison for a little over a month, and leaving prison on a mission to register more Black voters. African Americans--Voter Registration ; American Salvation Army--Psalms ; Freedom Songs Alabama ; Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Greyhound buses ; Parchman Penitentiary--Mississippi State Penitentiary--Jackson (Miss.) 944 Becoming National Chair at SNCC In 1963, you became chair of SNCC ; tell me about how that evolved. Congressman John Lewis discusses moving to Atlanta and being elected to head the SNCC, then afterwards helping to organize the March on Washington. Atlanta (Ga.) ; Barry, Marion, 1936- ; Bevel, James L. (James Luther), 1936-2008 ; Forman, James, 1928-2005--Congress of Racial Equality ; Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; LaFayette, Bernard, Jr. ; March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) ; McDew, Charles ; Nash, Diane, 1938- ; Nashville (Tenn.)--Fisk University ; New York City ; Randolph, A. Philip (Asa Philip), 1889-1979 ; Wilkins, Roy, 1901-1981-- National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Young, Whitney M.--Urban League 1090 Statement at March on Washington During the March on Washington, when they were determining what you would say, and I guess the younger folks had developed a statement and A. Phillip Randolph thought it didn't meet his approval ; tell me about that and how that evolved. Congressman John Lewis explains rewriting his speech for the March on Washington due to worries of some of the language being inflammatory. African American--Civil Rights Movement--Speech--Legislation ; Women--South Africa--Social conditions Atlanta (Ga.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Bond, Julian, 1940- ; Cox, Courtland, 1941- ; Foreman, James, 1928-2005 ; Goldwater, Barry M. (Barry Morris), 1909-1998 ; Harlem (New York, N.Y.) ; Howard University ; Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 ; Kennedy, Robert F., 1925-1968 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Lincoln Memorial (Washington, D.C.) ; March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) ; Philadelphia (Pa.) ; Randolph, A. Philip (Asa Philip), 1889-1979 ; Rockefeller, Winthrop, 1912-1973 ; Rufus, Walter-- United Auto Workers ; Rustin, Bayard, 1912-1987 ; Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.) ; Wilkins, Roy, 1901-1981 ; Young, Whitney M. 1520 Appointment to Domestic Director of the ACTION Agency In 1977, President Carter pointed you to ACTION. Will you talk about what ACTION was and what it represented? Congressman John Lewis explains being appointed to the ACTION Agency and how it is an umbrella organization for antipoverty groups. AmeriCorps*VISTA ; Anti-poverty programs ; Peace Corps ; Volunteer Carter, Jimmy, 1924- 1580 Running for Atlanta City Council In '81 you were elected to Atlanta City Council- Congressman John Lewis discusses how he consulted Martin Luther King Sr. before running for, and being elected to, the Atlanta City Council. Atlanta (Ga.). City Council ; Campaigning King, Martin Luther, 1899-1984 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Washington D. C. 1645 Running for United States Congress You know, Congressman, I often wonder, and I don't know if you can answer this, but in Atlanta, people who were actively involved with the movement, became politically active there and were elected to officers. Congressman John Lewis details his campaign for the United States Congressional seat in 1985. Campaign--Georgia--United States Congress Birmingham (Ala.) ; Fowler, Wyche, 1940- ; Mississippi ; Nashville (Tenn.) ; Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) 1922 Addressing Key Issues in Congress That was a question I was going to ask is the key issues facing you in congress and this nation at this point? Congressman John Lewis outlines critical issues he and the country faced during his time in Congress. Gulf Coast--Infrastructure ; Healthcare--Human Right ; Peace ; Terrorism--United States--Prevention ; War and conflict in the Middle East ; Youth--Education Baghdad (Iraq) ; Mississippi--Alabama--Rebuild ; World War 2--Europe--Rebuild 2145 The Voting Rights Act of 1965 One final question, there is a continuing discussion about the Voting Rights Act of 1965 expiring in 2007, can you give us your take on that issue? Congressman John Lewis expresses how important the Voting Rights Act is and how if it were to expire, it would allow drastic regression in democratic participation. Language barriers ; Public Schools ; Voter Registration--Photo ID Africa ; Atlanta (Ga.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Central America ; Clark Atlanta University ; Congressional Black Caucus ; Eastern Europe ; Emory University ; Georgia State College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; Georgia Tech Research Institute. Economic Development Laboratory ; Haiti ; Jackson (Miss.) ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; New Orleans (La.) ; South America ; Spelman College ; University of Georgia 2481 Conclusion of Interview Congressman, I want to thank you for taking time out and again, we welcome you to Birmingham and we're looking forward to being with you this evening. Interview is concluded. Oral History Congressman John Lewis discusses his extensive work with SNCC during the Movement. He also details his political career that led him to serving in the United States Congress. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Congressman John Lewis for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I&#039 ; m Dr. Horace Huntley ; today&#039 ; s date is November 19, 2005. Thank you congressman for sitting in with us and welcome to Birmingham. LEWIS: Well thank you very much ; I&#039 ; m delighted and very happy to be here in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Thank you ; it&#039 ; s really an honor to able to just sit with you today. Just let me talk just briefly, I&#039 ; ll ask you briefly about your-you were born in Alabama, is that correct? LEWIS: I was born in Alabama, about 10 miles outside of Troy. Troy is between Tuskegee and Montgomery. I grew up there on a farm. HUNTLEY: And how many children? LEWIS: I had six brothers and three sisters. A lot of first cousins, my mother had eight brothers and one sister, they had a lot of children and so it was like a very large extended family. HUNTLEY: What about the education of your parents? LEWIS: My mother attended public schools in rural Pike County, Alabama and she went to the eight grades and my father went to the sixth grade. HUNTLEY: And what kind of work did they do? LEWIS: They had been sharecroppers. My mother and father had been sharecroppers on the same land that my great grandfather lived on and my grandfather. But back in 1944, when I was four years old, and I do remember when I was four my father had saved $300 and with the $300 he bought 110 acres of land and I remember when we moved from this farm to the land that my father had bought he had an old broken down car and in the back seat of the car was an old radio that operated on batteries and a dog named Riley. And I was in the back seat. HUNTLEY: It wasn&#039 ; t Governor Riley (jokingly)? LEWIS: Well there&#039 ; s a lady-- there was a Governor Riley. HUNTLEY: That background, how did you happen to get to Fisk University? LEWIS: Well, as I was growing up, I kept hearing people say, &quot ; Get an education, and get an education, so you won&#039 ; t t have to work so hard like we&#039 ; re doing.&quot ; And I wanted to get an education and I had wonderful teachers in these schools. The elementary school was a short distance from my house where we could walk down the hill and make it to the elementary school, but the middle school was seven miles away and we went on a bus, bus pass a white school and then the high school was located in a little town called Brundidge, it was called Pike County Training School, during those days in Alabama, many of the rural county high schools were called training schools and the white schools were called just high school. And I had this wonderful teacher who was from Montgomery and she would tell me, read my child, read, read everything and I read everything I could. And then in 1955, I heard about Rosa Parks, heard about Dr. King, I heard Dr. King&#039 ; s voice over a little radio. And my first desire was to go to Morehouse, because Dr. King had attended Morehouse. So, when I finished high school in May of 1957, I sent an application to Troy State, I didn&#039 ; t tell my mother, didn&#039 ; t tell my father, any of my teachers. I had my transcripts sent down and I never heard a word from the school, so I wrote a letter to Dr. King and Dr. King invited me to come to Montgomery to see him but in the meantime, I had been accept at a little college in Nashville called American Baptist Theological Seminary. It was a college of the Bible, so I went off to there for four years and after being there, I continued to study and I got involved in the Civil Rights Movement and from being in Nashville, then I went to Fisk for two years and studied philosophy and religion. HUNTLEY: At what point did you start, did you get actively involved with the movement while you were in Nashville? LEWIS: Well, it was in, I met Dr. King March of 1958 when I was eighteen years old. He had invited me to come to Montgomery to see him, when I was home for spring break, I went up by Greyhound bus from Troy to Montgomery and arrived at the Greyhound bus station in downtown Montgomery. Fred Gray was the lawyer for Rosa Parks, for Dr. King in the Montgomery Movement. We met at the Greyhound bus station and drove me to the First Baptist Church on Ripley Street, pastored by the Rev. Abernathy, and ushered me into the offices of the church, I guess the pastor&#039 ; s study and I saw Dr. King and Ralph Abernathy standing behind a desk. I was so scared ; I didn&#039 ; t know what to say or what to do. And Dr. King spoke up and said, &quot ; Oh you&#039 ; re the boy from Troy, are you John Lewis?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; Dr. King, I&#039 ; m John Robert Lewis.&quot ; I gave him my whole name. And that was the beginning of my relationship with Dr. King. And so I went back to Nashville and continued to study there and it was there that I first heard Rosa Parks. She would come and tell the story of the movement. Thurgood Marshall would come, Daisy Bates, Mrs. King would come and speak and we hear these folks coming to Nashville, Coretta Scott King would come and tell the story of the Montgomery Bus Boycott through songs and they were so inspiring and I wanted to find a way, I went to a little church, called the First Baptist Church in downtown Nashville pastored by the Rev. Kelley Miller Smith, who was a friend of Martin Luther King, Jr. they both had gone to Morehouse. Kelley Miller Smith was from Mt. Bayou, MS ; he was one of the great ministers, He couldn&#039 ; t really preach and just tell a story and many of the lawyers and doctors and professors from Fisk and Meharry Medical School in Tennessee State attended this church. And so one Sunday morning I was there, Kelley Miller Smith announced from the pulpit that a young minister by the name of James Lawson, Jim Lawson, will be conducting nonviolent workshop and the people were welcomed to come. And I started attending these nonviolent workshops at a little church near Fisk University campus, every Tuesday night a group of students from Fisk University, Meharry medical school, American Baptist, Tennessee State and Vanderbilt started studying the philosophy and the discipline of nonviolence. We studied the great religions of the world. We studied what Martin Luther King, Jr. was all about in Montgomery. We studied the role in civil disobedience, what Gandhi attempted to do in South Africa, what he had accomplished in India. And we had what we called test sit-ins. In November and December 1959, before the sit ins started in Greensboro, NC, we had tested this, a group of Black and white students would go downtown to those large department stores and try to be served and we were told that blacks and whites could not be served together. HUNTLEY: Was Diane Nash apart of that group? LEWIS: Diane Nash, Marion Barry, Bernard Lafayette and several other young people and we just went there to establish a fight that we couldn&#039 ; t be served and we continued the nonviolent workshops and after we came back from the Christmas holidays, we had planned to start sitting in on a regular basis. And the sit-ins started on Feb. 1 in Greensboro, NC and a young minister there called Jim Lawson and said &quot ; what can the students in Nashville do to be supportive of the students in North Carolina. &quot ; And these two young Methodist ministers knew each other and Jim told them what we&#039 ; ve been conducting these nonviolent workshop, we had test sit-ins and we&#039 ; re ready to start sitting in and we started sitting in on a regular basis in Nashville by the hundreds, five and six hundred students would come down, especially what we called t-days, Tuesday and Thursday, lack class days on&#039 ; Saturday. And we would hear from time to time, five hundred or a thousand students together at a church to go downtown to sit in. And when we sit in there in an orderly peaceful nonviolent fashion, waiting to be served and someone would come up and spit on us, put a lighted cigarette out in our hair or down our backs, pull us off the lunch counter stool and beat us and the Nashville sit-in movement became the first place where there was a mass arrest on February 27th 1960, 89 of us were arrested and taken to jail. HUNTLEY: Nashville then of course was in the forefront of the sit-in movement? LEWIS: Well it was because I think of the leadership of Jim Lawson and Kelley Miller Smith. And Dr. King would come there to speak to inspire, and encourage people and he would say things like the Nashville student movement is the most disciplined, the most organized, has a deep understanding of the philosophy in nonviolence that was very inspiring to us. He would come to Fisk University and speak in the gym and there would just hundreds and thousands of people trying to get in. And so we sort of reconnected and I stayed in touch with him during that period. HUNTLEY: Were you involved with the initial meeting where SNCC was organized and at Shaw? LEWIS: In Raleigh, North Carolina, Easter weekend April 1960. I didn&#039 ; t go to Raleigh, but a group of delegation from Nashville included Diane Nash, James Bevill and Bernard Lafayette, and Marion Barry, because it was at that meeting at Shaw University that Easter weekend that Marion was elected the temporary chair of the temporary Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and then October of the same year, this group, a similar met on the Atlanta University campus or at Morehouse campus, in Atlanta and SNCC became a permanent organization and I was at that meeting. HUNTLEY: Now SNCC went in Mississippi and how was then called SNCC the new abolitionist in dealing with whole question of voter registration, can you just talk just a bit about that? LEWIS: Well in 1961, after the freedom rides, SNCC went into Mississippi. it was very dangerous, and it was like putting your life on the line, For many of us. We went into Mississippi in May of 1961, my first trip to Mississippi, growing up in Alabama, I thought Alabama was bad, but to cross that line in going to Mississippi, it was very dangerous. Because of what happened during the freedom ride, we arrive at the greyhound bus station in Jackson, we were arrested, taken to city jail, filled the city jail, later to the county jail, we filled the county jail, people kept coming. They put us in the state penitentiary at Parchman- HUNTLEY: How long were you in Parchman? LEWIS: I stayed in Parchman for about 37 days, I didn&#039 ; t know what was going to happen to us in Parchman, whether we would ever get out of Parchman, because the moment we arrived in Parchman, they brought a group of black and white Freedom Rider men on a big truck and they brought women in the van and the moment we walked into what they called maximum security unit, there was guy standing there with this gun, his rifle drawn, and he said, &quot ; Sing your goddamn freedom songs now, we have niggers here that would beat you or eat you up.&quot ; I didn&#039 ; t know what was going to happen. And they ordered us in to a room and down a long hallway, they had all of the guys standing and they ordered each one of us to take our clothes off and so about a half an hour or longer, we stood and no one had any clothing on and then in two&#039 ; s they led us to take showers and if you had any facial hair, beard, a mustache, you have to shave it off and while you&#039 ; re there shaving or taking a shower, the guys still had their guns drawn on you and after you finish your shower, then they led you in two&#039 ; s to a jail cell, without any clothing and then maybe an hour later, they come and give you a pair, Mississippi state penitentiary, sort of greenish shorts and undershirt and that&#039 ; s what we kept on our entire stay there. You take a shower once a week, couldn&#039 ; t read a book. a man from the Salvation Army came by and gave us the New Testament and the Psalms and I remember it so well, Bernard Lafayette wrote in my little New Testament, &quot ; presented to John Robert Lewis, June 21, 1961, by a man from the Salvation Army.&quot ; That was Mississippi and then therefore the members of the student nonviolent coordinating committee, for all of &#039 ; 61, in the spring of &#039 ; 62, started organizing in the heart of Mississippi, trying to get people ready to vote. The state of Mississippi in 1961 and 1962,3,4 and 5, had a black voting-age population of more than 450,000, but only about 16 or 18,000 Blacks were registered to vote. There was so much fear. People afraid and they called us all the freedom riders, like here come the freedom riders, it was like Paul Revere corning, here comes the freedom riders. HUNTLEY: In 1963, you became chair of SNCC ; tell me about how that evolved. LEWIS: I&#039 ; ve been very active after Diane Nash and James Bevill and Bernard Lafayette left Nashville. I was still in Nashville as a student at Fisk, but still active in the movement there, in the local movement. And I think after Marion Barry left as chair and another young man, by the name of Chuck McDew, what we called the Central Committee of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, met in Atlanta and they elected me the national chair of the student nonviolent coordinating committee in June of 1963. I moved to Atlanta at the age of 23, and seven days later, I was invited along with Martin Luther King, Jr., A. Phillip Randolph, Whitney Young of the Urban League, James Foreman of CORE, Roy Wilkins of NAACP, and others from different other organizations had a meeting at the White House to meet with Pres. Kennedy. And it was in that meeting that A. Phillip Randolph said to Pres. Kennedy that the masses are restless, the Black masses are restless and we&#039 ; re going to march on Washington. And you could tell by their very body language of Pres. Kennedy, he didn&#039 ; t like what he heard, and he said, &quot ; Mr. Randolph or Brother Randolph, if you bring all of these people to Washington, won&#039 ; t there be violence and disorder and chaos? We would never get a civil rights bill through to congress.&quot ; Mr. Randolph responded and said, &quot ; Mr. President, this will be an orderly, peaceful, nonviolent protest.&quot ; And so, after that meeting, we came out and had a few words with the media said that we had a meaningful discussion with the president and we&#039 ; re going to have a March on Washington and a few days later, to be exact, I think it was July 2, 1963. The six of us met in New York City and issued the call for the March on Washington and invited four major white religious and labor leaders to join us in issuing the call for the March on Washington. HUNTLEY: During the March on Washington, when they were determining what you would say, and I guess the younger folks had developed a statement and A. Phillip Randolph thought it didn&#039 ; t meet his approval ; tell me about that and how that evolved. LEWIS: Well we all, the ten, the six black leaders, heads of organization, plus the four whiteheads&#039 ; organization, they all had to prepare statements and to make them available the night before the March on Washington. Julian Bond, whose very much a part of the Atlanta student movement was the communication director for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. And he had gotten advanced copies of my prepared speech and made it available to the media, and so it got out and the other people saw it. They would say things in their speech that people didn&#039 ; t like. We all would stand at the Hilton Hotel at 16th and K. And someone knocked on my door that night before the march and it was Ben Rustin and Ben Rustin said, &quot ; John, come downstairs to the meeting, there&#039 ; s some problem with your speech.&quot ; And I went down for this meeting with other people from the student nonviolent coordinating committee and Walter Rufus from the UAW, somebody representing Martin Luther King, I think it was Walter, Roy, someone representing Roy Wilkins and Whitney Young and James Foreman. And people had some problems, one part of the speech said something like, &quot ; In good conscience we cannot support the administration&#039 ; s Civil Rights Bill, for it was too little too late.&quot ; And I went on to say, &quot ; There&#039 ; s not anything in this bill that would protect old women and young children, involving peaceful nonviolent protest run down by policemen on horseback and chased by police dogs or something like.&quot ; Then down there in the bottom of the speech I said something like, &quot ; We&#039 ; re involving a serious revolution.&quot ; &quot ; Listen Mr. President, you&#039 ; re trying to take the revolution out of the streets and put it in the courts1md when it was a lot of rhetoric saying, you tell us to wait, you tell us to be patient, we cannot wait, we cannot be patient, we want our freedom and we want it now!&quot ; Now at one point Vie(?) said to me, he was sort of joking, he said, &quot ; John, you know, say we cannot be patient, that may offensive to the Catholic Church, people believe in being patient.&quot ; The Archbishop of the Diocese of Washington, Archbishop Obald had threatened not to give the implication if I kept the speech, so that was just sort of the beginning and I think Walter Rufus and some people in the Kennedy administration, some people think was Bobby Kennedy who had got to the bishop and was putting pressure on him to say to A. Phillip Randolph and to Dr. King that John Lewis must change his speech. But what they really were troubled with, I said something like, &quot ; The party of Kennedy is the party of the Eastland, the former, the late senator, the Mississippi, who owned a plantation and treated black people in Mississippi like they were not even human. And they also said that the party of Rockefeller is the party of Goldwater, in reference to the conservative senator from Arizona, Barry Goldwater and then I said, &quot ; Where is our party, where is our party?&quot ; And I raised a question, I wanted to know which side was the federal government on, but then before I ended the speech, early when I was working on a speech, I read a copy of the New York Times a few days earlier. I saw a group of Black women in a southern Africa, carrying signs saying one man, one vote. So in my prepared text, I said something like, &quot ; One man, one vote is the African cry, it is ours too, it must be ours.&quot ; And that became the rallying cry for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. But at the end of the speech I said something like, &quot ; If you do not see meaningful progress here today, the day may come when we will not confine our marching on Washington, but we may be forced to march through the South. They said Sherman did, nonviolently.&quot ; And they objected to that, they thought it was too inflammatory, thought I was calling for violence. So we make the other changes, but the next day, even as the march started, all of us had gone up to Capitol Hill, met with the congressional leaders, we had marched to the steps of the Lincoln Memorial and Mr. Randolph and Dr. King said, &quot ; John is there a problem with the speech?&quot ; So we met to the right side for Mr. Lincoln, away from the march, the platform and we started going through the speech and James Foreman, the executive director of SNCC and a young man by the name of Courtland Cox, who was a student, had been a student at Howard, very active. The three of us were conferring with A. Phillip Randolph, Roy Wilkins and Dr. King and at one point ; Mr. Wilkins says, &quot ; We really got to change that, John.&quot ; And so I sort of said, &#039 ; &#039 ; You know this is my speech, this is a speech of those of us from the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and the reflective feeling and the attitude of the people that we&#039 ; ve been working with.&quot ; And another point, Dr. King says, &quot ; John that doesn&#039 ; t sound like you?&quot ; And then Mr. Randolph said something like, &quot ; John we&#039 ; ve come this far together for sake of unity ; for the sake of staying together, can we make these changes in reference to Sherman?&quot ; But there were some people who wanted me to change or delete the word revolution, delete the phrase, black masters and A Phillip Randolph came to my rescue and he said, &quot ; There&#039 ; s nothing wrong with the use of the word revolution, I use it myself sometimes, there&#039 ; s nothing wrong with black masters, I use that also.&quot ; So we decided to delete any reference to Sherman and I sort of said, &quot ; If we do not see meaningful progress here today, the day may come when we will march through certain cities.&quot ; And I called Birmingham and Atlanta maybe and Philadelphia, Harlem and different places. HUNTLEY: In 1977, President Carter appointed you to ACTION. Will you talk about what ACTION was and what it represented? LEWIS: Well in 1977 when I was appointed as the domestic director for the ACTION agency, it was the umbrella for several antipoverty type programs, hundreds and thousands of volunteers, old American volunteers, something we called foster grandparents, but it also, VISTA volunteers. Vista volunteers people to go and work in low-income neighborhoods and areas. It was in a sense the domestic Peace Corps, trying to help alleviate poverty, using the resources and skills of young people as well as senior citizens. HUNTLEY: In &#039 ; 81 you were elected to Atlanta city council- LEWIS: But in 1980, I went back to Atlanta, left Washington, went back to Atlanta and decided to run for a city council seat. And I remember having a discussion with Daddy King, the father of Martin Luther King, Jr. He was my pastor and he said to me, John we cannot defeat this man, his family own a beauty barber supply, they come to our weddings and our funerals, you just cannot defeat him, but if you decide to run, we&#039 ; re going to support you. So I got out there in 1981, ran city-wide, had a wonderful group of young people, a lot of students and campaigned all over the city and got 69.8% of the vote. I see that the guy who had been on the city council for 24 years. HUNTLEY: You know, congressman, I often wonder, and I don&#039 ; t know if you can answer this, but in Atlanta, people who were actively involved with the movement, became politically active there and were elected to officers. Birmingham, that didn&#039 ; t happen, and you know we&#039 ; re still discussing that, well why in Atlanta and not in Birmingham, but that&#039 ; s an issue that we&#039 ; ll deal with at another time, but I just wanted to throw that out. But in &#039 ; 86 you then were elected to congress, the 5th District of Georgia. Tell me about that. LEWIS: Well, in 1985, the fall of&#039 ; 85, I had just been reelected as a member of the Atlanta City council and a few days later, the young man by the name of Wyche Fowler, who was holding the congressional seat, informed me that he was going to run for the senate and give up the seat and I made up in my mind then that I was going to run for that congressional seat. So I called Julian or Julian called me, somehow we made a decision to have lunch together. Julian had been in the state house for 10 years and 10 years in the state senate, so we went to lunch because I knew he was interested in running for the seat and I was interested in running for the seat. And we had been good friends, very, very close, wonderful friends. At this lunch, I said something like, &quot ; Senator, what are you going to do?&quot ; He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m running for Congress.&quot ; And he called me Mr. Chairman ; he always called me Mr. Chairman since I had been the chair of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. He said, &quot ; Mr. Chairman, what are you going to do?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to run for congress, I guess I&#039 ; ll see you on the campaign trail.&quot ; That was the shortest lunch we ever had together, that was the most difficult campaign, probably the most difficult thing I ever done in my life really. It was much more difficult to run for congress with someone that you love and struggle with and fought with, much more difficult than walking across a bridge in Selma. And we got out there, he wanted to go to Congress, I wanted to go too. It was probably the most publicized Congressional campaign of1986 during that year. It was hard, it was very tough, it was several of us running in the primary, but I knew Julian is very good ; he is very, very good. He was well known, he was born in Nashville, but he was almost a native of Atlanta, could have been in Georgia politics for more than 20 years. So I got out there and I had to become known, I was better known in Alabama probably, better known Mississippi and probably in South Georgia than in Atlanta, because a lot of my workers, not necessarily in Atlanta, it was other parts of the south, other parts of the country. So I got out there and I worked night and day, sometimes 24 hours and I kept saying during the campaign, send to Washington a workhorse, not a show horse. I kept saying send to Washington a tugboat, not a showboat, it was not a necessary reference to Julian, but there were a lot of people running at that time. And then in the primary, it came down to the two of us. And we had a run-off, but earlier Julian received 47% of the vote, almost won it without a run-off. I got only 35% of the vote. Three weeks later, I went up 17 points, he went up 1 point. I knew if it came down to one-on-one, that I would outwork him, and the voters saw me working and they turned toward me. It was a powerful coalition that came together, and I haven&#039 ; t had as tough a race since, it was very difficult, very hard and for a while, there was a schism that existed between us, but now we&#039 ; re back friends and buddies. HUNTLEY: That was a question I was going to ask is the key issues facing you in congress and this nation at this point? LEWIS: At this point, I think the nation, those of us in Congress, and the American people, got to find a way to bring the madness to an end. We got to stop the violence, this war ; it is tampering really with the very soul of America. Sometimes I feel like we&#039 ; ve lost our sense of direction, our sense of purpose. This is an unnecessary war and it makes me so sad when I hear that another group of people been killed in Iraq, not just our own men and women, but the innocent citizens there. I think there&#039 ; s more terrorism now, it&#039 ; s a greater degree of violence because of what we&#039 ; ve done and my greatest fear if this war continues much longer, that the generation, the young people growing up in the middle east, and they will hate generations of Americans for year to come. We&#039 ; ve got to find a way to end it, bring the people home and try to reconnect with our allies and make the world a little more peaceful. HUNTLEY: Do you see that happening in the near future? LEWIS: I think it will happen, I think it will happen in the near future because all of the surveys, all of the polling data saying that the American people are sick, they&#039 ; re sick and tired of this war. They&#039 ; re saying that there&#039 ; s no justification for it, they believe like so many of us in the Congress believed that we were misled, many of our great majority of the Democrats, especially the great majority of African­ American members of congress didn&#039 ; t vote to go to war. And in addition, we got to do something at home about seeing that all of our young people get the best possible education, we got to see that all of our citizens have access to good healthcare, I believe that healthcare is a human right and that the quality of the person&#039 ; s healthcare shouldn&#039 ; t be decided on the basis of the size of that person&#039 ; s wallet, or the zip code that that person lives in and we got to rebuild, we got to spend the necessary dollars to rebuild the gulf coast, including New Orleans. We&#039 ; ve got to rebuild places in Mississippi and in Alabama, if we can rebuild Europe after WWII, and we&#039 ; re spending billions of dollars to help rebuild Baghdad and other parts of Iraq, after we&#039 ; ve destroyed it, we got to, not just build the physical structure of these places, we got to help rebuild the lives of people. HUNTLEY: One final question, there is a continuing discussion about the Voting Rights Act of1965 expiring in 2007, can you give us your take on that issue? LEWIS: The Voting Rights Act of1965 is still the most powerful nonviolent and perhaps one of the most progressive pieces of legislation that we&#039 ; ve bad for many, many years, because it not only liberated blacks, but also it helped to liberated whites also. And one thing about white politicians, especially those in the south, they can count and they see all of these black people getting registered and voting, then they have to make some special efforts to see that their people get services and that they be responsive to the needs of these people. They&#039 ; re people today, who would like to elect those section of the Voting Rights Act that going to expire in &#039 ; 07, they would like to them die. There&#039 ; s a section called Section 5, it deals with whole question, if any city of Birmingham, Atlanta, or Montgomery, or New Orleans, or Jackson, Mississippi, decided to change location of precincts, or decided to change from at large election to single member district, to jerrymander in a way, they have to get approval from the Voting Rights Section of the Department of justice. Those of us in the Congressional Black Caucus and the majority members of the Congress shall then, take the position that the Voting Rights Act, in those sections, Section 5 and others were good and necessary in &#039 ; 65, they&#039 ; re good and necessary now. If we don&#039 ; t renew or extend it, there&#039 ; s a possibility that we can go back. You can use Georgia as a simple example, the State Legislature in Georgia, the first part 2005, passed a piece of legislation saying that you must have an official state photo ID to be able to vote. Now in many parts of Georgia, to get a state ID, they can cost $25 or $30, so some of us call that modem poll tax, you can have a driver&#039 ; s license, but there are many people 80 and 90 years old or 75 years old without a driver&#039 ; s license and if you&#039 ; re a student at Georgia Tech, or Georgia State, or the University of Georgia, you can you use your student id, because these are state schools, but if you&#039 ; re a student at Morehouse or Spelman or Clarke Atlanta University, Emory, these are private schools, so your student ID wouldn&#039 ; t count. So there&#039 ; s an extra burden, so in order for something like that to be disapproved or approved, we need Section 5 to say to the state of Georgia that is wrong and what we just had happen in Georgia, the career attorneys in the Department of Justice said this is wrong, it shouldn&#039 ; t happen. It violates the Voting Rights Act, the spirit and the letter of the Voting Right Act. These are the 4 out of the 5 of career attorneys in the Department of Justice, but then the political attorneys came in, appointed by Pres. Bush, they said, &quot ; Oh no, it&#039 ; s okay.&quot ; And so it&#039 ; s all coming out and then the other section that is scheduled, Section 203, deals with the whole question of language, if you speak Spanish, if you only know Spanish, maybe some eastern European language or some native American language, then we&#039 ; re saying that the voter registration form and the ballot should be in those language. And some people said those sections should expire, but if you want everybody who are citizens and they&#039 ; re registered, they should be able to participate, so you keep Section 5 and you keep the language of the other section also. And I think when the Congress debates it later this year or earlier &#039 ; 06, we will renew and extend the Voting Rights Act. No one, no one, unless they just come from another planet, wants to be on the wrong side of this issue, because it is a powerful political issue. We cannot go back, we cannot stand still, we got to continue to open up the political process and let all of our citizens come in, including the new immigrants, whether they&#039 ; re from Central and South America, whether they&#039 ; re from Haiti or from Africa, from EasternEurope, whether they&#039 ; re the people who&#039 ; ve been living here all the time, but is not fluent in English. HUNTLEY: Congressman, I want to thank you for taking time out and again, we welcome you to Birmingham and we&#039 ; re looking forward to being with you this evening. LEWIS: Well thank you very much, I&#039 ; m delighted and very pleased to be in Birmingham, I&#039 ; ve always enjoyed coming here and especially coming to the Civil Rights Institute. HUNTLEY: Thank you. LEWIS: Thank you sir. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JLewis2005.xml JLewis2005.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Congressman John Lewis Description An account of the resource Congressman John Lewis discusses his extensive work with SNCC during the Movement. He also details his political career that led him to serving in the United States Congress. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 20051119L Subject The topic of the resource Parchman Penitentiary--Mississippi State Penitentiary--Jackson (Miss.) Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.) Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-11-19 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/a656d23fa53a49c2243754e57d951a95.jpg 787bfb4e48b8165be12c40b03200e3b4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Walter Wilson III OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=WWilson1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Phillips High School OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 June 7, 1995 Walter Wilson III Interviewed on June 7, 1995 19950607W 0:24:15 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham United States. Air Force Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Phillips High School Walter Wilson III Horace Huntley Video 1:|16(7)|42(10)|67(4)|89(3)|104(4)|126(12)|170(14)|189(3)|206(11)|226(2)|245(2)|264(13)|278(4)|288(15)|307(13)|327(15)|343(10)|379(2)|390(17)|405(5)|425(8)|437(8)|455(3) 0 https://youtu.be/aW4qEO1WsRI YouTube video English 19 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mr. Walter Wilson, Ill for the Birmingham Civil Rights lnstitute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 7, 1995. Introduction to Walter Wilson III 33.4810, -86.9089 17 Miles College 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org BCRI Homepage 35 Family Background I just want to start by asking you some general kinds of questions about your family. What part of the state were your parents from? Walter Wilson III discusses his family's background growing up in a mixture of Birmingham and Dayton, Alabama. Integration--Birmingham City Schools (Ala.) ; Night School Birmingham (Ala.) ; Dayton (Ala.) ; Robert James Printing Company (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 129 Early Education I am going to come back to that and ask you about that. Let me just ask you, what community did you live in at the time that you were growing up? Walter Wilson III talks about going to school in Birmingham, and going back and forth between Ullman and Parker high school due to the school fights. School Fights Avondale (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Smithfield (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Thomas Elementary (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 206 Attending College and The Air Force What did you do after high school? Walter Wilson III talks about how he went to Morehouse, joined the Air Force, and then continued back school at Lawson State when he finished. Prejudices--United States Military Air Force (U.S.) ; G.I. Bill ; Lawson State Community College (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) 255 Incident at Phillips High School Let me back up just a bit. I know that in 1957 you were one of the students that&quot ; made the attempt to integrate Phillips High School. You were in fact with Fred Shuttlesworth and his children the morning they went into Phillips. Can you tell me about that? Walter Wilson III discusses trying to integrate Phillips High School with Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth, but was faced with violence and had to leave. School Integration--Racial Violence--Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) Ku Klux Klan ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 472 Mass Meetings Did you attend any of the Monday night meetings? Walter Wilson III discusses attending mass meetings where Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth discusses ways the Black community could progress. School integration Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 568 Family Involvement in Movement Did you participate in any of the demonstrations? Walter Wilson III discusses his brothers involvement with Bull Conner and having the hoses turned on him. Fire Hoses ; Water Hoses Air Force (U.S.) ; Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Nashville (Tenn.) ; Paris, France ; Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 631 Going To the Hospital with Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth What do you remember about the day when they took you over to the hospital? Or when you went to the hospital with Shuttlesworth? Walter Wilson III does not recall much about going to the hospital after the beating of Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth at Phillips High School. Racial Violence--Hospital ; School Integration Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 708 Impact of Being Involved in the Movement How did that experience impact you as a young person at the time? Walter Wilson III talks was proud to be part of the movement and discusses being harassed by the Ku Klux Klan. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Ku Klux Klan ; The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 849 Talking to the Ku Klux Klan You said that you talked with the Klu Klux Klansmen when they called the house, did that frighten you? Walter Wilson III talks about receiving verbal threats from the Ku Klux Klan. Interracial Marriage--Threats 928 Relationship with Ullman Students and Morehouse students How did this reflect your relationship, your attempting to go to Phillips High School? How did that affect your relationship with the students at Ullman when you went there? Did they know that you had attempted to do that? Walter Wilson III discusses how he didn't get much more involved after going to school and serving in the military. Student Involvement--Civlil Rights Movement ; Students--Atlanta (Ga.)--Nashville (Tenn.) Air Force (U.S.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; G.I. Bill ; Los Angeles (Calif. ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Tennessee State University 1095 Making the Same Decisions Again Yes. You were a child. So, of course, you didn't have the same opportunities to get involved. Let me just ask though. If looking back on that, if that was to be the case now, would you want to do the same thing again, going to Phillips High School, making the effort to desegregate? Witnessing the attack on Shuttlesworth? Walter Wilson III said that he wishes he could've gone back to Phillips a few more times in the effort to integrate. Phillips High School ; Ullman High School 1157 Impact of Prejudices in School and the Air Force Yes. You really would have liked to have gone back. But actually the case was made as a result of your going at that time. Okay. Is there anything else that sort of stands out in your mind that relate to the Movement if we can relate it to your activity, your participation, is there anything else that we have not covered that you would like to deal with? Walter Wilson III talks about how he would've finished school and continued in the Air Force if it wasn't for racial prejudices that he had to face. Racial Prejudices--United States Military ; Racism Nashville (Tenn.) ; United States. Air Force 1351 Perception of Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth AII right. Well, I appreciate your time and coming to sit and talk with us because you are the first person I talked with who was actually there the day that Fred Shuttlesworth was beaten. Let me ask you one last question. How do you look at Fred Shuttlesworth as a man in the way in which he handled that situation at Phillips High School? Walter Wilson III describes Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth as a man of courage. Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1417 Conclusion fo Interview All right, Mr. Wilson. I appreciate you taking the time out and sitting with us. And I am sure that those things that you want to accomplish in life that you will be successful at them. Interview conclusion with Walter Wilson III. Oral History Walter Wilson III discusses attempting to integrate Phillips High School with Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth. He continued to volunteer for the Movement before serving in the Air Force. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mr. Walter Wilson, Ill for the Birmingham Civil Rights lnstitute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 7, 1995. Thank you Mr. Wilson for coming out and being with us today. WILSON: Thank you very much. HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking you some general kinds of questions about your family. What part of the state were your parents from? WILSON: My mother was born in Dayton, Alabama. My father, I don&#039 ; t know where he was born. I think he was born in Birmingham. My people lived here. I lived here all my life. HUNTLEY: You were born here in Birmingham? WILSON: I was born in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Did you have brothers and sisters? WILSON: I have two brothers younger and a sister younger. HUNTLEY: So you are the elder statesman? WILSON: I am. HUNTLEY: Good. Tell me about your parents&#039 ; education. WILSON: Well, as far as I know my father may have finished high school. My mother went to night school to finish, I know. HUNTLEY: Yes. She finished high school. WILSON: And my grandparents had finished school. HUNTLEY: What about your parents&#039 ; occupations. HUNTLEY: Well, I can remember my mother having only one job other than the one while she worked for the church. She worked for Robert James Printing Company back in the 50s and I remember her talking about it. And I think that she got fir13d because of the fact that I was with Shuttlesworth and we were trying to get something done about the integration of schools in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: I am going to come back to that and ask you about that. Let me just ask you, what community did you live in at the time that you were growing up? WILSON: Avondale and Smithfield. HUNTLEY: Avondale and Smithfield? And what elementary school did you attend? WILSON: I went to Thomas Elementary School. HUNTLEY: Thomas Elementary. And, then, from Thomas to..? WILSON: Ullman High School. HUNTLEY: To Ullman. And you graduated from Ullman High School? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: All right. Tell me, what do you remember about Ullman? What was it like going to Ullman? WILSON: Well, it was great the first two years and then it seems like it was mediocre after that. I wanted to go to Parker the last year because the old people had told me where the best classes were. They were saying that Ullman had a good school, but Parker had the best 12th grade and I went to Parker that 12th year to transfer there and I saw so many fights going up and down the aisle, going to the principal&#039 ; s office, I turned around and come back and went back to Ullman. HUNTLEY: Oh, so you finished Ullman then? WILSON: Yes. HUNTLEY: So you felt that Ullman was better than Parker after that? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school? WILSON: I went to Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia for one year. And I joined the air force. And I stayed in the air force until &#039 ; 63. I faced a lot of prejudiced in the air force and then I came home and got my GI bill and I went to Lawson State two years. HUNTLEY: Did you spend four years in the air force? WILSON: Three years. In the air force the first sergeant was prejudiced and he saw to me getting out early. HUNTLEY: So you got an early out. WILSON: Early out. HUNTLEY: Let me back up just a bit. I know that in 1957 you were one of the students that&quot ; made the attempt to integrate Phillips High School. You were in fact with Fred Shuttlesworth and his children the morning they went into Phillips. Can you tell me about that? WILSON: Well, we drove up on the lot to the doors and Shuttlesworth said &quot ; Well, here the school is, that&#039 ; s where you want to go.&quot ; So he said, &quot ; You can get out and go up there.&quot ; So I opened the door and I was the first one out of the car. I got out the car and I started walking towards the school. HUNTLEY: Did the others get out with you? WILSON: No. Shuttlesworth got out. You see, what happened was, the crowd of people started running towards the car. They were Klu Klux, the Whites or whatever you call them. And Shuttlesworth got out of the car behind me and he told me, he said, &quot ; Run and get back in the car.&quot ; And the people, these Whites come up hitting him with chains and bats and he finally worked his way back to the car and got in and we drove off. But it didn&#039 ; t take long but I really wanted to go to that school, even though I knew that we had to get something in court or get a suit in for me to get in there. I knew they weren&#039 ; t going to let me in there because the law hadn&#039 ; t been changed. HUNTLEY: So you were the only child that got out of the car to go up to the school? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: And, then, Shuttlesworth got out behind you? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: And as the crowd approached him, he sent you back to the car? WILSON: Right. And they beat him. HUNTLEY: And they didn&#039 ; t bother you? WILSON: No. They didn&#039 ; t touch me. HUNTLEY: Could they have if they had wanted? WILSON: Well, they broke the windows out of the car on the side where I was sitting in and broke all the windows. The daughters were in the car crying. &quot ; Give me a fork. I wish I had a fork so I could get out there and help him fight.&quot ; HUNTLEY: &quot ; A fork?&quot ; What do you mean? WILSON: It&#039 ; s what you eat with. They wanted something to fight with. HUNTLEY: Oh, that&#039 ; s what the daughters were saying? WILSON: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: Oh, but no one else ever got out of the car and he finally made it back to the car? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: Who was driving, do you remember? WILSON: He was driving. HUNTLEY: He was driving? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: So it was just he... WILSON: His wife. HUNTLEY: Rev. Phiffer? WILSON: Rev. Phiffer was not in the car I don&#039 ; t think. Who I remember was his wife, his two daughters, me and Rev. Shuttlesworth, that&#039 ; s all I remember. HUNTLEY: So, did they come to your house to pick you up that morning? WILSON: I am not sure about that. HUNTLEY: Do you remember why you were selected, or did you volunteer? How did you get to be a part of this effort? WILSON: My mother asked me did I want to attend Phillips High School was closer than Ullman or Parker and I think the law said something about you go to the closest school. And, I think the suit claimed that if Phillips was closer, why not let Blacks go to Phillips instead of passing by on the bus going to Parker and Ullman. Now I was only 12 years old. And these things been on my mind a long time. I don&#039 ; t know exactly whether it&#039 ; s hearsay I&#039 ; m talking or what I remember from that time. HUNTLEY: Did you attend any of the Monday night meetings? WILSON: Yes, I did. HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what those meetings were like? WILSON: Well, I think Rev. Shuttlesworth would get up and talk and ask for suggestions as to what things could be done to help improve the city or help get Blacks integrated into the system of the city, get better positions in the schools and the cities. HUNTLEY: Were there other young people, a lot of other young people like yourself, involved in those Monday night meetings? Do you remember? WILSON: Well, they were there. HUNTLEY: Were any of your friends involved? Close friends that went to school with you or that lived in your community? WILSON: I don&#039 ; t remember. HUNTLEY: What else do you remember about those meetings? Other than Shuttlesworth. WILSON: Oh, it was a good place to go on Monday night. HUNTLEY: Why did you say it&#039 ; s a good place to go? WILSON: Well, you had Rev. Shuttlesworth talking and people complaining about what things needed to be done in the city for Blacks to move up ahead. HUNTLEY: Do you remember policeman being involved in those meetings? Or being present there? WILSON: I don&#039 ; t remember seeing any. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of the demonstrations? WILSON: No. I didn&#039 ; t. I just went to Phillips High School to try to get a better education. I didn&#039 ; t participate in the marches. I was not in the city. I had joined the service in &#039 ; 63 and I was in Nashville, Tennessee. And it seemed like every time something came up, like in &#039 ; 63 when Shuttlesworth was here, I was in Paris, France. It seem like I came home a lot but I just wasn&#039 ; t involved in too much more other than just the schooling. HUNTLEY: Were there other members of your family that were involved in the Movement? WILSON: Well, I can remember my brother telling me, they went down when Bull Conner had the hoses at them. My grandmother and they made fun of what was said and done while they were participating. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the day when they took you over to the hospital? Or when you went to the hospital with Shuttlesworth? WILSON: Is there anything that you remember about that occurrence? WILSON: Well, I remember -- I saw this picture. It has Shuttlesworth, his wife, his daughters and me on the picture, do you know what I am talking about? HUNTLEY: Right. WILSON: Well, all I know is that Shuttlesworth is the only one that got hurt. And that was probably the reason why we were at the hospital. HUNTLEY: But, you do remember him driving the car from Phillips High School to the hospital? WILSON: No. I don&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: You don&#039 ; t remember that? WILSON: No. I remember him driving the car to Phillips High School, me getting out and start walking towards the school, him jumping out behind me and running and say, &quot ; Go get back in the car.&quot ; And I saw the people beating him with chains and bats and sticks and things. He finally worked his way back to get in the car and when he got in the car, they broke the windows out and we drove off. That was really all that I remember in that picture. HUNTLEY: How did that experience impact you as a young person at the time? WILSON: Well, you know I was proud to be part of the system -- of the Christian Movement. We had a lifetime membership with the NAACP. We had membership with the Baptist -- well, anyway I am just proud to have been a part of it. That&#039 ; s the way it was. HUNTLEY: And, do you think that by your being a part of that, did that play any role in what you would do later on in life or how you would view the struggle from that point on? WILSON: Well, back during the time, Klu Klux, Whites called the house. And they would talk to me and so I would talk to them on the telephone. HUNTLEY: What would they say to you? WILSON: &quot ; What do you think you are going to do? Go to school with Whites? Why do you want to go to school with Whites? And they would be watching me even up until later on in age when I got to be 50 or 60 years old, so they would still be watching me. And I remember -- it doesn&#039 ; t seem like those things that they said are unconsciously still in my mind. HUNTLEY: Do you think that they are watching or have been watching you? WILSON: Well, I got to say it seem like I see people who are out of my past who come and pass by or wave. Some of the same people that was against us going to that school, they are still in this city and they do not want to see the city progress, yet. HUNTLEY: So you think there is some residue from that time to the present time? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: You said that you talked with the Ku Klux Klansmen when they called the house, did that frighten you? WILSON: Not at the time. It doesn&#039 ; t frighten me now. I just seem wary of the fact that they are around. It seems like they say, &quot ; If you get married before you get to be 50 years old, it better be to a White woman.&quot ; Seems like that&#039 ; s what they said to me from back 40 years ago. HUNTLEY: Wait a minute. I don&#039 ; t understand. You are saying that -- WILSON: They talk to me. I talk to them. They made fun and they threaten. We had people watching our house. We had people sitting on the porch with guns because they said they were going to come by and bomb. And they said, &quot ; If you get married before you get to be 50 years, it better be to a White woman.&quot ; It&#039 ; s some of the things that they did that I remember. HUNTLEY: This is what the Klan said, &quot ; That if you got married before 50, you better get married to a White woman.&quot ; Why would a Klansman say that you, a Black man should get married to a White woman? WILSON: I don&#039 ; t know. I don&#039 ; t know. That&#039 ; s just one of the things I remember from back then. HUNTLEY: How did this reflect your relationship, your attempting to go to Phillips High School? How did that affect your relationship with the students at Ullman when you went there? Did they know that you had attempted to do that? WILSON: Oh, they seemed to be proud of me. HUNTLEY: How did they show that pride in you? WILSON: Well, we didn&#039 ; t talk about it too much. But sometime we would talk. And I was doing pretty good in school the first couple of years. I studied hard and we just talked about it. Then after awhile wasn&#039 ; t nothing said about it. All it was, was to get something in the court so that people behind us would be able to go to those schools because we didn&#039 ; t think we were going to be able to get in there. HUNTLEY: Well, when you went on to Morehouse, to college, did this ever come up when you were a student, a freshman or sophomore at Morehouse? WILSON: Yes, we talked about it. HUNTLEY: You went to college in 1961? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: So the Movement now is starting to develop because you had student activism. Students in Atlanta and Nashville were getting involved. Were you involved in any of those efforts as a college student? WILSON: No. HUNTLEY: So then you decided to go to Tennessee State and then come back to Birmingham? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: And, then, you decided to go to the military and, then, finally come out and go back to college on the GI bill? WILSON: Right. Well, my friend from Los Angeles, California who had been living in Atlanta with me, who had been going to school with me in Atlanta , he called up and said he had a job for me in Los Angeles so I went to Los Angeles to work. HUNTLEY: This is after Morehouse? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: Between Morehouse and Tennessee State? WILSON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. And how long were you out there? WILSON: Three months. HUNTLEY:And, then, you came back? WILSON: No. I joined the air force out there in &#039 ; 63. HUNTLEY: Oh, you joined the air force from out there? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: All right. Then your activity in the Movement basically was limited to the participation at Phillips High School. Your mother was intimately involved as she was a member of the Membership Committee. WILSON: I don&#039 ; t remember. I was only 12 at that time. HUNTLEY: Yes. You were a child. So, of course, you didn&#039 ; t have the same opportunities to get involved. Let me just ask though. If looking back on that, if that was to be the case now, would you want to do the same thing again, going to Phillips High School, making the effort to desegregate? Witnessing the attack on Shuttlesworth? WILSON: The only thing that I hate about it is, we just went there for one time. I think we should have continued to go back, and back and forth until they let us in. HUNTLEY: So the attack did not frighten you? WILSON: No, it didn&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: Yes. You really would have liked to have gone back. But actually the case was made as a result of your going at that time. Okay. Is there anything else that sort of stands out in your mind that relate to the Movement if we can relate it to your activity, your participation, is there anything else that we have not covered that you would like to deal with? WILSON: Well, I had some papers and things I have been saving because after I got into the air force -- I faced prejudice in the high schools here in the city. I faced prejudice in the air force in Nashville, Tennessee. And it just seem to go on and on. It seems like we are moving ahead, but we are just facing more prejudice. When you get around them and stay around them, if you had done something, like try to integrate, they think you want to be White, or whatever and it&#039 ; s just more prejudice. It&#039 ; s just as much prejudice ·now as it was then, I guess. HUNTLEY: You are saying it&#039 ; s just as much now as it was then? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: But you don&#039 ; t have to sit in the back of the bus now? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: You can go to Newberry&#039 ; s. Well, Newberry&#039 ; s is about gone, isn&#039 ; t it? You can sit any place you want. So how do you mean &quot ; there is just as much prejudice now as then?&quot ; WILSON: Well, what I was referring to was the prejudice I faced in the air force. That&#039 ; s what I was referring to and that was in the 60s, too. HUNTLEY: So you had prejudice here in the south and then prejudice in the military as well. How did that impact on your life as a whole? WILSON: Well, I had some plans to start and do something for myself. When I got to be 50 years old and things have not worked out the way I wanted them to. And I think it was all because of the prejudice elements that have been committed against me or Black people, whatever you say. It&#039 ; s still holding them back and I think I have something to accomplish in life here. There are still some things I want to do and the prejudice seemed like it held me back. I didn&#039 ; t finish college. I didn&#039 ; t stay in the air force, but I wanted to. HUNTLEY: Do you think that the things that have held you back, are they still out there or would we be able to accomplish any of these things and get around this whole idea of being held back by prejudice and racism? WILSON: I think so. HUNTLEY: You think we will be able to do it? WILSON: Right. HUNTLEY: Right. Well, I appreciate your time and coming to sit and talk with us because you are the first person I talked with who was actually there the day that Fred Shuttlesworth was beaten. Let me ask you one last question. How do you look at Fred Shuttlesworth as a man in the way in which he handled that situation at Phillips High School? WILSON: I think he is a great man. And he was not afraid. He didn&#039 ; t mind fighting with those people and he didn&#039 ; t talk about it. He just got back in the car, we raced off and we went to the hospital. And they said, &quot ; Well, this is what we came here for. We knew we were not going to get a chance to go to this school, today.&quot ; The only thing I say, is I think we should have went back the next day, and the next day until we finally got in there instead of waiting for them to take it through the courts. HUNTLEY: A man of courage is what you would call Shuttlesworth? WILSON: Yes, sir. HUNTLEY: All right, Mr. Wilson. I appreciate you taking the time out and sitting with us. And I am sure that those things that you want to accomplish in life that you will be successful at them. WILSON: Thank you. HUNTLEY: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=WWilson1995.xml WWilson1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Walter Wilson III Description An account of the resource Walter Wilson III discusses attempting to integrate Phillips High School with Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth. He continued to volunteer for the Movement before serving in the Air Force. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950607W Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham United States. Air Force Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-06-07 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/4bd73484558509094e9b5ce6a118c620.jpg 9e6055e6359e8ba6dcdb84d26f9643b2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ethel Weatherspoon OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=EWeatherspoon1998.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 July 21, 1998 Ethel Weatherspoon Interviewed on July 21, 1998 19980721W 0:25:55 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Bombing--A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham City Jail (Birmingham, Ala.) 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 Ethel Weatherspoon Horace Huntley Video 1:|20(8)|38(2)|61(1)|91(2)|120(3)|130(10)|158(6)|178(4)|189(6)|207(6)|231(12)|245(10)|267(13)|283(8)|304(2)|326(6)|348(6)|374(3)|401(5)|420(3)|447(10)|459(6)|472(4)|500(16)|504(13) 0 https://youtu.be/GMrRp32YStU YouTube video English 4 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Ms. Ethel Weatherspoon for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute’s Oral History Project. I’m Dr. Horace Huntley, we’re presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is July 21, 1998. Ms. Weatherspoon, I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule and welcome to the Institute. 33.5161, -86.8145 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 43 Family Background You were born in Birmingham, right? Ethel Weatherspoon discusses and her parents' educational background and growing up with 7 siblings. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Columbus (Ga.) ; Phenix City (Ala.) ; Russell County (Ala.) ; Selma (Ala.) 157 Early Education You started first grade at Lincoln? Ethel Weatherspoon discusses attending her elementary and high school in Birmingham. May Day Hardee's ; Immaculata High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Lincoln Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 335 Community Background and Segregation One of the issues that always come up is segregation in Birmingham. What was segregation like? Ethel Weatherspoon discusses what segregation was like in Birmingham and Phenix City, Alabama growing up. African Americans--Segregation ; Gambling ; Racial Violence Birmingham (Ala.) ; Columbus (Ga.) ; Phenix City (Ala.) 431 Getting Married and Having a Family What did you do after you stopped going to school for a while? Ethel Weatherspoon discusses how she adopted girls from people she knew who were not able to take care of them. Court--Adoption--Custody Zion (Ala.) 581 Joining The Movement Oh, I see. When the movement started to develop...were you active in those beginning days in the movement? Ethel Weatherpoon demonstrated and a policeman hit her in the stomach then tried to arrest her. Mass Meetings ; Paddy Wagon ; Police brutality--United States Civil Rights Movement--Demonstrations 754 Going to Jail and Attending Trial Oh, ok, so they put you in a patrol car. So, how long were you in jail? Ethel Weatherspoon explains going to trial and being in the city jail during the bombing of the A.G. Gaston Motel. Police brutality--United States Bombing--A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement--Demonstrations ; Civil Rights Movement--Trial ; Hall, Peter ; Hardee's ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Thomas, R. Roosevelt 1058 Being in Jail Simultaneously with Her Son You jerked him off of there. Well, when your son went to jail. Were you in there at the same time? Ethel Weatherspoon talks about how she and her son were in the Birmingham City Jail at the same time. African American Youth--Jail ; Family Birmingham City Jail (Birmingham, Ala.) 1101 Ethel and Her Husband's Profession What kind of work were you doing at the time? Ethel Weatherspoon talks about what she and her husband did for a living at the time. African American Housewife ; Truck Driver 1137 Impact of The Movement What do you think was the importance of what was happening during the demonstrations and all? Ethel Weatherspoon talks about how her son would participate in the demonstrations as a kid. African American police Bull Connor--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement--Demonstrations ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Lincoln Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Thomas, R. Roosevelt 1325 Registering to Vote Are you a registered voter? Ethel Weatherspoon went to Southside in Birmingham to sign up to vote. Voter registration--United States Southside (Birmingham, Ala.) 1409 Recalling the 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing Do you remember when they bombed the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church? Ethel Weatherspoon discusses how she was at home when she heard about the 16th Baptist Church Bombing. Change 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 1541 Conclusion of Interview Ms. Weatherspoon I want to thank you for coming out. We really appreciate you taking this time out. Interview concludes. Oral History Ethel Weatherspoon discusses growing up in a big family before getting involved in the Movement. She and her son spent time in jail for demonstrating. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Ethel Weatherspoon for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I&#039 ; m Dr. Horace Huntley, we&#039 ; re presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is July 21, 1998. Ms. Weatherspoon, I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule and welcome to the Institute. WEATHERSPOON: I&#039 ; m glad to be here. HUNTLEY: You were born in Birmingham, right? WEATHERSPOON: Correct. HUNTLEY: Where were your parents from? WEATHERSPOON: My mother, she&#039 ; s from Phenix City, Russell County. My father, he was from Selma, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Did they meet here in Birmingham? WEATHERSPOON: Well, as far as I know, yes. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? WEATHERSPOON: Well, I had seven brothers and sisters altogether but there&#039 ; s just two of us now living. Two girls. HUNTLEY: There were seven of you. Were you the oldest? Were you the baby? WEATHERSPOON: I was next to the oldest sister and had an older brother. HUNTLEY: You were the third child, ok. Did your mother and father have a lot of schooling? How much schooling did they have? WEATHERSPOON: My mother she mostly was a teacher in Phenix City. HUNTLEY: She taught in Phenix City? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did she go to college? WEATHERSPOON: Yes, she did. HUNTLEY: Where did she go? Do you know where she went? WEATHERSPOON: I think it was somewhere in Columbus, Georgia. Her mother had bought some property in Georgia. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your mother and your father do? WEATHERSPOON: Well, my mother did most like housework. My daddy, he just did different odd jobs. HUNTLEY: You started first grade at Lincoln? WEATHERSPOON: Lincoln School. HUNTLEY: What was that like? Do you remember starting school? WEATHERSPOON: Yeah, I do. It was real nice. We used to have a [inaudible] May Day. It was real good time. HUNTLEY: Do you remember any of your teachers from Lincoln? WEATHERSPOON: I remember Ms. Chairman, she was the music teacher. She died not too long ago. HUNTLEY: What community did you grow up in? WEATHERSPOON: Right here by the [inaudible]. Over there on 4th Avenue between 10th and 11th Street. HUNTLEY: Oh, yeah. WEATHERSPOON: Over where Hardee&#039 ; s is. HUNTLEY: Where Hardee&#039 ; s is now? WEATHERSPOON: Right, they tore the house down and built a highway there. HUNTLEY: This was a big community then at that time? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: You were able then to walk to Lincoln? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: After Lincoln, where did you go? WEATHERSPOON: Immaculate, that&#039 ; s on Southside on 14th Street. HUNTLEY: So, why didn&#039 ; t you go to Parker? WEATHERSPOON: Well, I just, I don&#039 ; t know. I just didn&#039 ; t like Parker in general. I just went to Immaculata. HUNTLEY: Immaculata was a smaller school. WEATHERSPOON: Yeah, it was smaller. HUNTLEY: So, how did you get to Immaculata? WEATHERSPOON: Ride the bus on 4th Avenue to go to town. Catch the bus, ride and get off on 14th Street South. HUNTLEY: Oh, yeah. Ok. So, Immaculata, it was on the Southside. WEATHERSPOON: Right. HUNTLEY: You left the Northside to go to the Southside. Did many of your friends in your neighborhood did they go to Immaculata too? WEATHERSPOON: No, they went to Parker. HUNTLEY: So, were you the only one that went over to Immaculata? WEATHERSPOON: As far as I know. HUNTLEY: Tell me what was it like growing up in Birmingham during those times? WEATHERSPOON: Well, it was real fun. We used to, the pastor used to take us on hay rides, you know. He used to take us on hay rides. It was real nice. HUNTLEY: One of the issues that always come up is segregation in Birmingham. What was segregation like? WEATHERSPOON: Well, it was pretty rough. We couldn&#039 ; t stop at the stand or anything. HUNTLEY: You couldn&#039 ; t go in and get something to eat and sit down and eat it. WEATHERSPOON: No. HUNTLEY: What about the, riding the buses? WEATHERSPOON: Well, it was rough. I used to catch the bus to go and see my grandmother. They would always tell you to go and sit in the back. HUNTLEY: Was Phenix City the same way? WEATHERSPOON: It was pretty, you know after Patterson got killed it started getting rough. HUNTLEY: It was, they did a lot of gambling down there. WEATHERSPOON: They called it Little Las Vegas. HUNTLEY: Did you spend a lot of time down there? WEATHERSPOON: Yes, on the weekends I would go and visit my grandmother and stay with her. HUNTLEY: So, you then became familiar with Phenix City and Columbus, Georgia which was right across the river. WEATHERSPOON: Right. HUNTLEY: My aunt and uncle live in Columbus so I know a little about that area myself. So, did you finish high school? WEATHERSPOON: No, I didn&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: What did you do after you stopped going to school for a while? WEATHERSPOON: Well, after that. . . HUNTLEY: Did you get married? WEATHERSPOON: Yes and I was taking little girls&#039 ; children and raise them. I never did have one by birth. So, I had all these children I raise. HUNTLEY: How many children did you raise? WEATHERSPOON: Seven of them. HUNTLEY: You said you would get them from their mothers? WEATHERSPOON: I would raise their mothers and then get the children they had. HUNTLEY: Were the children that you raised were they relatives? WEATHERSPOON: No. [inaudible] So, we went to family court and I got custody of them in family court. HUNTLEY: So, that&#039 ; s when you got custody of all the children? WEATHERSPOON: Seven of them and then I started adopting. HUNTLEY: So, you&#039 ; ve been rather busy these years. WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: How many do you have at home now? WEATHERSPOON: My daughter right there. She has two children of her own. I got her from her mother. The court took her from her mother. I went and got custody of her. HUNTLEY: So, is she still living with you? WEATHERSPOON: No, she lives up in Zion in an apartment. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. When the movement started to develop...were you active in those beginning days in the movement? WEATHERSPOON: No, we would go. They were having meetings at certain churches and I used to go down there. HUNTLEY: You attended those mass meetings? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: What was it like? What was a mass meeting like? WEATHERSPOON: Well, it was mostly they were discussing about different [inaudible]. The different things they wanted you to do and what would help us. When we started demonstrating my son he was in it. They took him to city. HUNTLEY: So, your son was arrested during the demonstrations? WEATHERSPOON: Right. HUNTLEY: You were arrested also? WEATHERSPOON: Right. HUNTLEY: What was the circumstances of your arrest? What happened? WEATHERSPOON: I was going down there. They were having like a program. It was East of 7th and they were already demonstrating down there on 6th Avenue and 11th Street North by the [inaudible] Church. I was going in there to get here. So, while we were going the police were on a motorcycle and passed us. I happened to be standing on the corner and by the time he passed by me I turned around and he hit me in the stomach. I said, &quot ; You hit me in my stomach.&quot ; So, he grabbed his and said, &quot ; You&#039 ; re going to be one of those smart niggers.&quot ; So when he grabbed me I reached and grabbed him. So, we then went to scuffling. Then some cops came and put me in the patrol wagon. So, we got to scuffling there. They then put me in a police car and took me to the city jail. While I was there the police officer that me and him got into it, he was there. HUNTLEY: The one that you first got into it with? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: What did he have to say to you then? WEATHERSPOON: He was trying to tell somebody that I had broke his arm. I hadn&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: So, when they arrested you were you the only one in the car? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. They tried to put me in a patrol car but they couldn&#039 ; t so they took me in a police car. HUNTLEY: They tried to put you in a paddy wagon? WEATHERSPOON: Paddy wagon. HUNTLEY: But they couldn&#039 ; t get you in the paddy wagon? WEATHERSPOON: No. That&#039 ; s why we were scuffling real hard. HUNTLEY: Oh, ok, so they put you in a patrol car. So, how long were you in jail? WEATHERSPOON: Well, I stayed in there for a little about two weeks. A friend of mine that belongs to the church, you might have heard about him. His name was Roosevelt Thomas. He was working with the movement. So, my husband was trying to get me out. So, he took him to the movement and gave him whatever he couldn&#039 ; t charge they paid him. They told me to come back to the movement. So, when I had my first trial Shuttlesworth he was helping me with it. HUNTLEY: Rev. Shuttlesworth? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: What was it like being in jail? What was that two weeks like? WEATHERSPOON: Well, I thought me and the police were going to get into it again because they kept sending me to different parts. They would ask me different questions over at the jail. HUNTLEY: What kind of questions were they asking you? WEATHERSPOON: Did I think I what I was supposed to get for jumping on an officer. I said, well, he hit me first. So, those different kinds of things. They kept saying that I was being smart. So, the night of the bombing. . . HUNTLEY: The motel? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. I was in city jail. HUNTLEY: You were in the city jail then? WEATHERSPOON: Right. That&#039 ; s when they made my bond and I got out of jail. HUNTLEY: Then you went back to the movement? WEATHERSPOON: They brought me home. When I got home the police were on all the corners. [inaudible]. They didn&#039 ; t want anybody walking the street. So, I stayed in. HUNTLEY: Where were you living then? WEATHERSPOON: Right there on 23rd. HUNTLEY: Where Hardee&#039 ; s is now? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, then while you were in jail did they attempt to beat you or anything of that nature? WEATHERSPOON: No because [inaudible]. The people that worked in the jail. A couple of people that know me had gotten in touch with my husband. They told him that they were scared that they were going to do something to me. So, that&#039 ; s when I think they went to the movement and got Peter Hall for me. HUNTLEY: So, Peter Hall was your lawyer? WEATHERSPOON: Right. HUNTLEY: Did you go to court? WEATHERSPOON: Yeah, I went to court and they fined me 180 days and five counts. HUNTLEY: Did you have to serve any of that time? WEATHERSPOON: No because they must have made me a bond because I was at home one day and they called me to the phone from the ladies house next door. I went in and had to go to court. [inaudible] When I got up there they called to the court room the lawyer was talking to the District Attorney. They said I can get you off of the five counts which I was charged. I never had to serve one. HUNTLEY: So, you then were free and didn&#039 ; t have to deal with that anymore. WEATHERSPOON: No. HUNTLEY: You said your son was arrested. WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: This was during the demonstrations? WEATHERSPOON: Right. HUNTLEY: When you were arrested you were going by to pick up one of your children? WEATHERSPOON: [inaudible] HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s when the policeman came by and hit you. WEATHERSPOON: He was on a motorcycle. By me turning around that&#039 ; s when he hit me in the stomach. HUNTLEY: He was still on the motorcycle? WEATHERSPOON: Yeah, when me and him got to scuffling. HUNTLEY: Did you drag him off the motorcycle? WEATHERSPOON: I jerked him. HUNTLEY: You jerked him off of there. Well, when your son went to jail. Were you in there at the same time? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Was he at the city? WEATHERSPOON: Yes, at the city. HUNTLEY: Did you know that he was in jail? WEATHERSPOON: Yeah, I knew that he was in there. HUNTLEY: Did any of your other children get involved? WEATHERSPOON: My daughter was but I don&#039 ; t know if she went to jail. She was in that fight. I don&#039 ; t think she went to jail. HUNTLEY: What kind of work were you doing at the time? WEATHERSPOON: Nothing but just housewife. HUNTLEY: You were keeping the kids. That&#039 ; s plenty of work, wasn&#039 ; t it? WEATHERSPOON: Yes it was. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your husband do? WEATHERSPOON: He drove a truck. HUNTLEY: In the city or open road? WEATHERSPOON: He was in town and then they moved out and drove across country. HUNTLEY: All over the country? WEATHERSPOON: Yeah. HUNTLEY: So, he would be gone for days? WEATHERSPOON: Yeah. HUNTLEY: What do you think was the importance of what was happening during the demonstrations and all? WEATHERSPOON: They were saying, you know, about that song we used to sing, &quot ; We Shall Overcome&quot ; . I think Martin Luther King was supposed to be at the church after the program. There were so many demonstrations they just couldn&#039 ; t handle it. HUNTLEY: Did you ever demonstrate? WEATHERSPOON: No. That was just one time. HUNTLEY: Did you approve of your son being involved? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did he come and ask you or did he just get involved? WEATHERSPOON: He told me he was going. I told him to stay out of town because they were spraying all that water. I told him to stay out of town because I didn&#039 ; t know what Bull Conner might have them to do. So, I told him to stay around close by home and the church. HUNTLEY: Where was he in school? WEATHERSPOON: He went to Lincoln. HUNTLEY: Was he at Lincoln at that time? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: He was in elementary school? WEATHERSPOON: Right. HUNTLEY: Were there others in your community that were involved? WEATHERSPOON: Roosevelt Thomas he was real involved in it. He sung for them all the time and went to different things with them. HUNTLEY: Right. WEATHERSPOON: Roosevelt was a good singer. He would come by my house and tell me he was going to a different church where they were having the meetings. HUNTLEY: Right. How do you think the movement changed Birmingham? WEATHERSPOON: Well, it a good job doing what they did. I look at so much that they did. I just feel [inaudible]. It&#039 ; s still not what it could be. I know about some of the colored officers you know they have kind of a bad attitude towards some of the colored people. HUNTLEY: You mean today? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. You know they get by [inaudible]. Instead of sitting down and talking with them. It&#039 ; s got me scared that one of them might get killed, you know. HUNTLEY: Where do you live now? WEATHERSPOON: Right there on 12th Street. HUNTLEY: Are you a registered voter? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Do you remember taking the test for it? Do you remember when you first started? WEATHERSPOON: When I first signed up to vote. You know [inaudible] on Southside? HUNTLEY: Yes. WEATHERSPOON: A lady was over there signing in and I signed up with one of them. They were over there. HUNTLEY: I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule to come and talk with us. What we&#039 ; re just trying to do is get pictures from people that were here and involved and seeing how we can develop this big picture of what Birmingham was like. WEATHERSPOON: A big nice town but it was rough. HUNTLEY: Do you remember when they bombed the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Where were you then? WEATHERSPOON: I was at home. HUNTLEY: Do you remember hearing the bomb? WEATHERSPOON: There&#039 ; s a boy at my house now who was with his grandmother said he was in that church when it got bombed. HUNTLEY: Is that right? He&#039 ; s at your house? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Is it one of the children that you adopted? WEATHERSPOON: No, he&#039 ; s just a good friend of mine that visits my house all the time. HUNTLEY: Those were some tough times. WEATHERSPOON: Yes they were. One of those girls that got killed her brother comes to my house all the time. I think it was McNair. Her brother is at my house all the time. HUNTLEY: Is that right? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Is there a lot of discussion about the movement? WEATHERSPOON: You always hear good words about the movement. I don&#039 ; t ever hear any bad words. HUNTLEY: Changing the city for the better. WEATHERSPOON: Yes, it is. HUNTLEY: Ms. Weatherspoon I want to thank you for coming out. We really appreciate you taking this time out. WEATHERSPOON: I&#039 ; m glad I can. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=EWeatherspoon1998.xml EWeatherspoon1998.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ethel Weatherspoon Description An account of the resource Ethel Weatherspoon discusses growing up in a big family before getting involved in the Movement. She and her son spent time in jail for demonstrating. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19980721W Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Bombing--A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham City Jail (Birmingham, Ala.) 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1998-07-21 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/b85e71e5deb69fcabf7ac3f6c7cfa0c5.jpg ee10c0af17ff88e4bdd541e28320bc60 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mamie Brown Mason OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=MBMason1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Freedom Choir OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 June 2, 1995 Mamie Brown Mason Interviewed on June 2, 1995 19950602M 0:41:01 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department JJ Newberry's (Birmingham, Ala.) Freedom Choir Mamie Brown Mason Horace Huntley Video 1:|2(10)|29(13)|51(5)|87(1)|104(14)|122(12)|145(13)|167(12)|177(12)|188(4)|221(3)|236(15)|260(2)|274(9)|299(12)|323(6)|341(4)|360(14)|372(5)|390(7)|406(2)|422(6)|449(3)|459(15)|500(16)|512(14)|530(6)|549(17)|561(11)|581(12)|600(13)|621(11)|635(7)|653(2)|664(18)|676(5)|689(3)|698(13)|710(9)|724(10) 0 https://youtu.be/imGQ8qAkK0M YouTube video English 51 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mamie Brown Mason for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 2, 1995. Introduction to Mamie Brown Mason 33.4810, -86.9089 17 Miles College 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org BCRI Homepage 72 Family Background I just want to start by asking some general kinds of questions about your family. Tell me about your parents. Were your parents from Birmingham or where were they from? Mamie Brown Mason discusses what it was like growing up on a farm with 11 siblings in Orrville, Alabama. African American--Agriculture ; Family Birmingham (Ala.) ; Dallas County (Ala.) ; Orrville (Ala.) ; Pleasant Hill (Ala.) ; Selma (Ala.) 224 Community Background How would you describe the community that you grew up in? Mamie Brown Mason talks about how the community helped her throughout school and working on the farm growing up. African Americans--Agriculture ; Community education ; Sharecroppers Orrville (Ala.) 309 Participating in Recreation Tell me a little then about the recreation that you all participated in. What kinds of things did you do to keep yourselves entertained? Mamie Brown Mason discusses how they grew up playing games in her community and how her father would participate in them as well. Ball games ; Horseshoes ; Organized games 348 Relationship to Law Enforcement What was the community's relationship to the law enforcement agencies in that area? Do you ever remember anything happening as far as -- Mamie Brown Mason explains the relationship of the police by telling a story of a black boy who was taken to jail for whistling at a white girl. African Americans--Segregation ; Racial Discrimination--Police Till, Emmett, 1941-1955 404 Early Education How would you describe your elementary school? What school did you attend? Mamie Brown Mason talks about getting her early education from her community church and her local high school, along with experiencing racial discrimination from the white school age children. Community education ; High School Reunion--New York ; Prom ; Race discrimination Birmingham (Ala.) ; Keith High School (Orrville, Ala.) ; Providence Baptist Church (Orrville, Ala.) 662 Attending Booker T. Washington Business School That should be big fun then. After you finished Keith High School, what did you do? Mamie Brown Mason talks about working and going to school at Booker T. Washington Business college. African Americans--Marriage A. G. Gaston ; Booker T. Washington Business College (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Minnie L. Garden Gaston 766 Working With Booker T. Washington Insurance Company And what did you go to school for? What were you being trained for at Booker T. Washington? Mamie Brown Mason talks about racial tension at work and working for the Booker T. Washington Insurance Company in Birmingham, Ala. Accounting ; Business administration ; Workplace--Racial Segregation--Wrongful Termination Booker T. Washington Insurance Company (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Simon and Mogliner (Birmingham, Ala.) 849 Starting Work with the Movement When did you get involved in the Movement? Mamie Brown Mason talks about how she helped get people registered to vote with the Alabama Christian Movement. Voter registration Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 933 Registering to Vote When did you become a qualified voter, a registered voter? Mamie Brown Mason explains how she was taught how to take the poll test at her church. Police Officers ; Testing ; Voter Registration 46th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 987 Participating in The Movement Right. I've interviewed him and he told me about that. Tell me, when you got involved in the Movement, what role did you play? Mamie Brown Mason talks about how she contributed to the movement by being part of the Freedom Choir. Church Choir ; Mass Meetings Birmingham Civil Rights Institute ; Freedom Choir ; Highlander Folk School (Monteagle, Tenn.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1104 Attending the Mass Meetings I have heard a lot about the mass meetings and how they developed and all. Tell me, how would you describe the typical mass meeting? Mamie Brown Mason discusses how amazing the mass meetings were and how they were like church revivals. Church Choirs ; Church Revival Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights 1211 Participating in Demonstrations Were you involved in any of the demonstrations? Mamie Brown Mason talks about Dr. King instructing them before the protest and helping them out with food. Arrested ; Food 16th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Miles College 1345 Being Arrested And what were the circumstances of your arrest? Mamie Brown Mason talks about being arrested for sitting in at the lunch counter of JJ Newberry's. African Americans--Segregation ; Jail ; Prayer meetings ; Sit-Ins JJ Newberry's (Birmingham, Ala.) 1517 Spending 5 Days in Jail So what did you do during the day for five days that you were there? Mamie Brown Mason talks about how being in jail contributed to her winning a contest to attend the Insurance Convention in Illinois. African Americans--Segregation ; Contest ; Jail ; Laundry Chicago (Illinois)--Insurance Convention ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Miles College 1781 Family Reaction to Movement How did other members of your family react to your participation in the Movement? Mamie Brown Mason talks about the support she received from her family, her community, and her employer while being in the Movement. Churches ; Insurance 46th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Gaston, Arthur George (1892-1996) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; The Civil Rights Movement--Family Support 1899 Benefits From The Movement What benefits did you, your family and community realize as a result of the Movement? Mamie Brown Mason talks about how educational and job opportunities opened up from participating in the Movement. Opportunities--Work--Education ; Support 1939 Traveling With the Choir Tell me just a little bit about how the choir would go from place to place. Did you ever go outside of Birmingham to give concerts? Mamie Brown Mason talks about how the choir and the mass meetings went hand in hand with each other. Traveling Church Choir Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement--Donations 2049 Assessing the Movement In just in closing, how would you assess the Movement, the Birmingham Movement? Was it a success? Mamie Brown Mason discusses how back during the movement it didn't matter how much money you had, everyone worked together for the greater of the cause. African Americans--Segregation ; Classicism in American culture Birmingham (Ala.) ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Civil Rights Movement ; Gaston, Arthur George (1892-1996) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 2238 Marching to the Birmingham Jail If I ask you to share with us your most vivid memory from the Movement during those Movement days, what would that be? Mamie Brown Mason discusses how her most vivid memory was marching to the Birmingham Jail. Fire Hoses ; Group Prayer ; Jail ; Marching ; Prayer Meeting ; Water Hoses Birmingham (Ala.). Fire Department ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.)--Army Tank ; Charles Billups 2348 Encouraging the Future Generations to Vote Well, is there anything else you would like to add that we have not dealt with? Mamie Brown Mason encourages more people to exercise their right to vote. United States. Voting Rights Act of 1965 ; Voter registration 2422 Conclusion of Interview I certainly appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to come down and sit with us today. And we are hopeful that we will get copies of this to you in the very near future. Conclusion of interview with Mamie Brown Mason. Oral History Mamie Brown Mason discusses being arrested for sitting in at JJ Newberry's, working in voter registration and singing in the Freedom Choir. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mamie Brown Mason for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 2, 1995. Thank you Ms. Mason for taking time out of your schedule to come and sit with us today. MASON: It&#039 ; s my pleasure. HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking some general kinds of questions about your family. Tell me about your parents. Were your parents from Birmingham or where were they from? MASON: No. They were born and raised in Dallas County, Selma, Alabama. Maybe some people know it by Pleasant Hill back in that area. HUNTLEY: Pleasant Hill, Alabama? MASON: Yes. On a farm. HUNTLEY: Well, were you born in Birmingham? MASON: No. HUNTLEY: Where were you born? MASON: I was also born there. MASON: And we moved to Orrville when I was about nine years old. So basically I grew up in Orrville. It&#039 ; s still Dallas County, but in a different section. HUNTLEY: Was Orrville a larger place? MASON: It was larger, yes. HUNTLEY: And so you were moving from the rural to the -- MASON: Another section of the rural. HUNTLEY: Another section of the rural, not quite urban yet. How many brothers and sisters did you have and where did you fit in there? MASON: Well, I am the seventh child. There were actually 12 born. One sister passed away at about six weeks old, but 11 of us lived to get grown. Six girls and five boys. HUNTLEY: Tell me just a little about your parents. What about their education? Your mother and your father. MASON: Well, my father got very little education. There was a large family of them. There were 14 in his family, so he didn&#039 ; t get a chance to go to school very much. My mother was very well educated. In fact, she helped to teach us all through high school. So, I don&#039 ; t know how far she went in school, but she was able to help us with our math and what not while we were going to high school. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s remarkable because -- MASON: Yes, she was a smart lady. HUNTLEY: Yes. After my kids got to high school I couldn&#039 ; t help them with math any more, so she must have been pretty smart. MASON: Yes, she was. HUNTLEY: What about her occupation? Did she work outside of the home? MASON: Well, on the farm, sometimes. HUNTLEY: But this was just in the family business? MASON: Right. HUNTLEY: And your father, what did he do? MASON: A farmer, he was a farmer, yes. HUNTLEY: Did the children work on the farm as well? MASON: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: How would you describe the community that you grew up in? MASON: In Orrville? HUNTLEY: In Orrville. MASON: Well, there was some people in that community that was pretty well educated. And we got a lot of help from most of the adults in the community, including the church and the school. HUNTLEY: What kind of help? MASON: Well, many of our teachers we would see at church. And even if we were just speaking to them they would correct us with our English and they were just very caring teachers, very caring. HUNTLEY: So you were always learning when you were around those adults? MASON: Yes. Always. HUNTLEY: Were most of the people that lived in your area, were they farmers? MASON: Oh, yes. Most of them were farmers. But most of them were sharecroppers. Now my father and his brother were buying their own home and my uncle, my father&#039 ; s brother had ten children and their were 11 of us and, you know, we did a lot of playing together. HUNTLEY: So you had a community just with family? MASON: Yes. It was enough to make a school. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little then about the recreation that you all participated in. What kinds of things did you do to keep yourselves entertained? MASON: Well, we created our own fun. We had enough to have a ball team or whatever we wanted to do. Pitch horseshoes or do things. Because we didn&#039 ; t have a TV and we didn&#039 ; t have a radio even, so my father, many times, organized the games that we were playing because he liked to play also. He was a strict father, but he still like to play with us. But we knew when it was time to play and when he really meant business. HUNTLEY: What was the community&#039 ; s relationship to the law enforcement agencies in that area? Do you ever remember anything happening as far as -- MASON: Oh, I can recall one incident when I was very small. A young man who went to school with us who, I think he whistled at a White girl and he had to do time for that. Which we thought was kind of bad, but there was nothing we could do about it. HUNTLEY: How much time did he do for that? MASON: I think he did a year and a day. HUNTLEY: Is that right? MASON: For just whistling at a White girl. HUNTLEY: You know Emmett Till was supposedly whistling at a White girl, also. MASON: Oh, yes. That brought that back very vividly when that happened, yeah, what happened to him. HUNTLEY: How would you describe your elementary school? What school did you attend? MASON: I attended Providence school. We were members of Providence Baptist Church and there was this little hall on the ground. And at first there were the two rooms and then our parents got together. All the parents in the neighborhood got together and added another room because it was too small. So when I left there, there were three rooms with three teachers. HUNTLEY: And then you went on to high school? MASON: I went to Keith High School. HUNTLEY: Keith High School? Is that in Orrville? MASON: In Orrville, yes. Where I had to walk six miles to school and six miles back. HUNTLEY: You mean you walked once a week and you stayed there? MASON: No. Everyday I walked six miles to school. And when school was out I walked back home six miles. We had no school buses so that is how we had to go to school. HUNTLEY: Well, were you walking alone or were there others? MASON: A group of us were walking and the White children had school buses and they would pass by and throw out and hit us, you know, as we were walking. So, I remember an incident where we were ready for them with their plums and we threw back on the school bus. The next day the principal had us, Mr. Hatcher was the principal at that time, he had us in and told us that the bus driver told him that we were throwing on the bus and so we told him what happened. He said, &quot ; Well, you still cannot do that. Do not throw on the bus.&quot ; We had a rough way to go. Really rough way to go, but we were determined to go to school anyway we did. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the time that you spent at Keith High School in terms of your teachers, the principal, the kinds of things that you and your friends would do? What stands out most in your mind about Keith? MASON: You know we are getting ready to have our school reunion. On the 29th of June we will be going to New York to have a reunion of the entire school. But the thing that stands out mostly was the caring of the teachers. We had teachers that cared about all students, you know. And the thing that really stands out with me is the fact that I was a very sheltered person. My parents sheltered us, me anyway. And I was not going to be going to my prom and the principal&#039 ; s wife was also a teacher. Mrs. Hatcher found out that I was not going to go and she wrote my mother a letter and said, &quot ; Let her stay with me and attend the prom.&quot ; And that&#039 ; s what I did. I spent the night with them, attended the prom and went back home with them. HUNTLEY: I assume this was closer to where the prom was being held? MASON: It was held at the school. HUNTLEY: So you would have to get from your place? MASON: Right. And I didn&#039 ; t have any way to get there and my mother was not going to let me go with my boyfriend, it was just that simple. HUNTLEY: But you did get a chance to go to the prom? MASON: I got a chance to go to the prom by spending the night with the principal and his wife and their children. HUNTLEY: I see. So you are having a reunion of Keith High School in New York? MASON: In New York. HUNTLEY: Why New York? MASON: Well, there are people in New York who attended that school and they asked to have it there. We have it every two years. I think the next year we are scheduled to have it in Selma. HUNTLEY: Okay. MASON: The next two years. HUNTLEY: So everybody in Orrville will be going to New York City? MASON: Maybe not everybody, but we have a chapter here in Birmingham and most of us are going to New York. HUNTLEY: That should be big fun then. After you finished Keith High School, what did you do? MASON: I came to Birmingham and attended Booker T. Washington Business College. HUNTLEY: And you finished Booker T. Washington and then what? MASON: Well, I got married in &#039 ; 51 and so I went to school. I then had to quit going to school during the day and when Mrs. Gaston heard that I was not able to go to school, she says, &quot ; Oh, no. You must go. You must continue.&quot ; So I started going at night. I finished Keith High School in 1954. I mean, I&#039 ; m sorry, I finished Booker T. Washington Business College in 1954. HUNTLEY: So were you simply going to school. You were not working at that time? MASON: She gave me work to do in the office. HUNTLEY: I see. MASON: Because I was not able to go money wise. And she gave me -- Mrs. Gaston is a great person. I just wish I could be able to tell her that. HUNTLEY: Well, you can. She may even watch this. MASON: I hope so. There were many people that she helped who was not able to go to school and she let them go anyway. HUNTLEY: So in 1954 when you finished at Booker T. Washington, what was your next step? MASON: Well, I was not able to get a job, you know, using the skills that I learned in school. HUNTLEY: And what did you go to school for? What were you being trained for at Booker T. Washington? MASON: Business Administration. I was not able to use it at all. Accounting and business administration. So I worked as a maid. I worked at a plant also. I worked at Simon &amp ; Mogilner. Yes, that was a place where I had a lot of problems. HUNTLEY: What kind of problems did you have? MASON: Oh, it was the most racially segregated place and I had a little problem with a White person there and I was fired, of course. HUNTLEY: What was the problem? MASON: Well, I was in line to clock in and this girl shoved me, you know, and of course, all I did was report it. I didn&#039 ; t even hit her which I thought about doing, but I didn&#039 ; t. I reported it and of course, I was fired for reporting it, I guess. But then I got a job writing insurance at Booker T. Washington Insurance Company. And that&#039 ; s what I was doing during most of the time of the Movement. I was writing insurance with Booker T. Washington. HUNTLEY: I see. So you were rather independent as well? MASON: Yes. Yes. HUNTLEY: When did you get involved in the Movement? MASON: From the beginning almost. In the early 50s. Probably about &#039 ; 57 or &#039 ; 58, something like that. HUNTLEY: The NAACP was outlawed from operating in the state in 1956. MASON: Right. HUNTLEY: And then Shuttlesworth and a number of other ministers got together to establish the Alabama Christian Movement. Were you involved that early in those initial stages? MASON: Not the very initial stages, but I started attending shortly after that. HUNTLEY: Why did you get involved? MASON: Well, I just saw the need to do something to help whatever I thought that I could do. I got involved in voter registration for one thing. We set up a voter registration school at our church, at the 46th Street Baptist Church. On a Wednesday night I was teaching people to fill out those applications they would need and other people, members of our church would teach them how to fill out those long drawn out applications for becoming registered voters and telling them how he had to pay the poll tax, you know, you had to pay a dollar and a half for poll tax in order to become qualified to vote. HUNTLEY: When did you become a qualified voter, a registered voter? MASON: Just before I started helping them. Probably &#039 ; 57 or &#039 ; 58, something like that. HUNTLEY: Did you pass the first time that you went in? MASON: Yes. HUNTLEY: And had you prepared for the test? MASON: I had prepared. I had been taught and so I was prepared for it. HUNTLEY: So after you were taught then you decided to do the same with the other people? MASON: Do the same and started helping other people. HUNTLEY: And were you taught there at 46th Street Baptist? MASON: I was taught by a person who was going to another church at that time. They were going to New Bethel Baptist Church, a Mr. George Johnson who encouraged me and who taught me and I think he was one of the first people who applied for a policeman here in this city. I think you may know something about him, I don&#039 ; t know. HUNTLEY: Yes. MASON: He&#039 ; s a minister now. HUNTLEY: Right. I&#039 ; ve interviewed him and he told me about that. Tell me, when you got involved in the Movement, what role did you play? MASON: Well, at first I was just attending the mass meetings all the time. And our church choir and Rev. Shuttlesworth church choir decided to have fellowship and, we would sing at his church on one third Sunday and they would come to us the next third Sunday and Rev. Shuttlesworth asked me and Mr. Gay to organize a choir. We knew a lot of singers and we did a lot of singing over the city and we knew a lot of singers and we started getting people together to organize a choir for the Movement. HUNTLEY: So you and Mr. Nims Gay? MASON: Right. HUNTLEY: Okay. So that was the initiation of the Freedom Choir? MASON: Yes. Exactly. HUNTLEY: Well, you wrote some of the songs, right? MASON: Well, it was a workshop that they had in Tennessee. In Highlander Folk School that I attended where we were changing songs to freedom words. And this song that you may hear some time at the Civil Rights Institute, &quot ; I&#039 ; m On My Way to Freedom Land,&quot ; I wrote the words to that. The tune is from a gospel song that we were singing in our choir. I guess you would call it a spiritual, &quot ; I&#039 ; m On my way to Canaan Land.&quot ; So I changed those words from &quot ; Canaan Land&quot ; to &quot ; Freedom Land&quot ; and we sang that song at the mass meeting. And of course, Rev. Gardner liked that song and we had to sing it every night. Every time we had a mass meeting, we had to sing that song for Rev. Gardner. HUNTLEY: I have heard a lot about the mass meetings and how they developed and all. Tell me, how would you describe the typical mass meeting? MASON: Well, in one word I can say, &quot ; Awesome.&quot ; It was really awesome. They had been filming those at that time, because I think it would be almost unbelievable to some of the young people now. We had a group of people who were devotion people who started the devotion and they had it so spiritual. It was so hot there. They could really moan those moans, sing those hymns and pray those prayers like you never heard before. It was very, very good. HUNTLEY: It sounds like a revival. MASON: That&#039 ; s right. Exactly. Like a revival. And that was anytime we had a meeting. We even, organized and had ushers. HUNTLEY: Now, there were meetings held all over the city in various churches. MASON: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you all went from different churches every Monday night? MASON: Right. To different communities. And the thing about it we didn&#039 ; t have automobiles. But someone would call us. Sometimes more than one person would say, &quot ; Do you have a way to the meeting tonight?&quot ; And they would come and get us and take us. Wouldn&#039 ; t take a penny. HUNTLEY: So you always had transportation? MASON: We always had a way. We knew someone was going to take us. HUNTLEY: Were you involved in any of the demonstrations? MASON: Yes. The very first day of the demonstration I was involved. In April of 1963. The night before then, Dr. King had met with us and he prayed with us and talked to us about what to expect and then he ran his hand in his pocket and said, &quot ; I have so much money here. You are not going to be able to eat that food in the jail.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; This is all I have, I&#039 ; m going to give it to you.&quot ; And he asked me if I had any money, I said, &quot ; Yeah, I have a little.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; Well, put this with your money, so that the ladies, all of you --&quot ; And I went to some of the Miles College students at that time. And so we would get the man, the trustee to go to the store and get us milk and cheese and crackers and something that we could eat. HUNTLEY: So you did not eat the food? MASON: I couldn&#039 ; t eat it. I couldn&#039 ; t eat it. The only food that was good was the breakfast food. They had that strict lean white meat and biscuits and that was good. But they had breakfast so early. I ate that first breakfast because they didn&#039 ; t feed me the first day. They didn&#039 ; t even offer us any food. But I got up and went to have breakfast at 5:00 o&#039 ; clock that morning. All those other mornings I said, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t wake me up. I&#039 ; m tired. I want to get some rest.&quot ; I was tired from writing insurance, I needed some rest. HUNTLEY: You said Dr. King sort of instructed you all the night before you were arrested? MASON: Yes, before we were arrested. HUNTLEY: Was this at a mass meeting? MASON: This was a special meeting of those of us that he was getting ready for the kick off. HUNTLEY: And how many, approximately were there? MASON: I think there were something like about 12 of us. No more than 15 that first day. HUNTLEY: Was this at a church? MASON: Yes. That first day. HUNTLEY: Do you remember what church it was? MASON: It was at 16th Street. HUNTLEY: 16th Street? MASON: Yes. HUNTLEY: And what were the circumstances of your arrest? MASON: There was a young man and I who was trying to eat at JJ Newberry&#039 ; s down in the basement where the White folks ate. We didn&#039 ; t want to sit up there on those stools where the Black people were and all they could get were hot dogs. We were going to go in to the cafeteria style and eat. HUNTLEY: So the Blacks sat at the counter? MASON: At the counter, but they only served like hot dogs or something like that. HUNTLEY: And they only had a couple of stools? MASON: Yes. Up on the first floor. But this was like down in the basement where they had the little tables, you know, and fixed it nice for the White folks. We were going to go there but they chained us out and wouldn&#039 ; t let us eat. They wouldn&#039 ; t let us get in. So, finally they called the police and they arrested us. HUNTLEY: So, when they would not let you in, what did you do? MASON: We just stood there. We waited for them to take the chain off. We knew some White people were going to come to eat. And as soon as they lifted those chains we were going to go in. HUNTLEY: Did they ever lift the chains? MASON: After we were arrested I am sure. But no, they didn&#039 ; t. They kept them up. HUNTLEY: So you were never seated? MASON: We were never seated. We were arrested because we were trying to be seated. HUNTLEY: Was there a crowd around at the time? MASON: Oh, yes. There were White people who were angry because we were not letting them eat. Because if they let the White folks in, they would have to let us in, too. And when they were arresting us, going up the stairs, there were White people on each side, they were looking at us so fiercely, so angry and I was glad to be arrested because I thought they were really going to attack me. And we were taught that we could not fight back. Under no circumstances could we fight back. Even if we were hit, we could not hit back. HUNTLEY: How long did you remain in jail? MASON: Five days. HUNTLEY: Five days? Can you describe what it was like being in jail? MASON: Well, we had prayer meeting in jail. The regular prisoners there and some of those ladies had life sentences. HUNTLEY: Were you intermingled with the regular population? MASON: Oh, we were in there with them. We were in there with them. They respected us to the highest. And every night they would ask us to sing and pray and every night this lady would stop us. She said, &quot ; They got to get up and go to work tomorrow.&quot ; And they would tell this warden, &quot ; We asked them, we want to hear them.&quot ; She still would not let us sing, so we were obedient. HUNTLEY: So what did you do during the day for five days that you were there? MASON: I worked in the laundry two days. They called our names alphabetically and my name was Brown at that time and Brown and Bell. There was a Bell there who was related to the Bell who was with Miles College. I believe she was a granddaughter of the president of Miles College at that time, but she was also there in jail. She and I worked in the laundry. And the first time we went out just before lunch, the lady that was over us, this was on that Friday, the lady that was over us, she said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m not going to give you anything hard.&quot ; The half of day we didn&#039 ; t even work. We didn&#039 ; t do anything. She told us, &quot ; Sit down.&quot ; We sat and so when we were going back, she said a White man came to her and talked to her. She came to us, she called us aside, she said, &quot ; You see that White man talking to us?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Yes.&quot ; She said, &quot ; He was asking questions. He wanted to know if you were obedient and I told him yes.&quot ; And she said, &quot ; You were. You did exactly as I asked you to do. I told you to sit down.&quot ; She said, &quot ; But, you know, you have snitches here in jail, so I am going to have to give you some work to do.&quot ; I said, &quot ; That&#039 ; s no problem, I&#039 ; m used to working.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Was this a White woman or Black woman? MASON: No. This was a Black woman. The Black woman that was over the laundry. HUNTLEY: Sort of a trustee like? MASON: So, we were segregated in jail. We didn&#039 ; t have anything to do with the White women in jail. They were in their separate area. We were in our separate area. So, she said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to have to give you something to do.&quot ; So she had us to guide the sheets through the machine. I&#039 ; m on one end and the other girl on the other. Very easy. Nothing. No problem. HUNTLEY: Now, was this woman a trustee? Was she an inmate? MASON: Yes. I think she&#039 ; s one of those, she said her time was going to be coming up soon for parole and she did not want to do anything to jeopardize that so she asked us to cooperate with her. And, of course, we were going to anyway. HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate in the demonstrations? MASON: Yes. I had one sister who did. Hattie Felder. HUNTLEY: Did she go to jail as well? MASON: Yes, she did. And how long did she remain in jail? MASON: I don&#039 ; t know. She was there longer than I was because she had to go back and when I went in -- and we had our case, Dr. King was there -- our hearing and he asked all of us who could to remain for five days and those who couldn&#039 ; t, he was getting them out the next day. HUNTLEY: How did that impact upon your livelihood being in jail five days? MASON: Oh, it didn&#039 ; t affect me at all. Not one way or the other. At that time my whole life was really the Movement. My church and the Movement that was about it. And my job, of course. And during the time I was in jail, there was a supervisor who was working on my job. He was working with me. So before I went to jail I wrote down all instructions to tell him what to do. The people to go to see and all of that so he could take care of business. And while I was in jail there was a contest going on on my job and when I got out of jail there were people calling me off the street to come and write some insurance because they saw me getting in the paddy wagon on TV and they were dropping insurance with the White people and they wanted me to be their agent. And I won a contest. HUNTLEY: Is that right? As a result of going to jail?MASON: As a result of my going to jail. I went to Chicago to the insurance convention that year. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s amazing. MASON: Yes. HUNTLEY: So you were actually enhanced by going? MASON: Without even trying. HUNTLEY: How did other members of your family react to your participation in the Movement? MASON: Well, everyone in my family was in accord with what we were doing. Some of them could not take part because some of them had jobs that, you know, they probably would have lost their jobs. And, of course, my mother was ill at that time and she urged us on. She said, &quot ; If I wasn&#039 ; t sick, I&#039 ; d be there with you.&quot ; So they thought it was a great thing to do something to try to help the race. HUNTLEY: So your family was very supportive? MASON: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: You were writing insurance? MASON: Yes. HUNTLEY: What about your employer? MASON: Well, I think he had no other choice but to accept what I was doing. And I am speaking of Dr. Gaston. Because Rev. Shuttlesworth and those that talked with him and I think he knew that he had to go along with it whether he did or not. HUNTLEY: So you were in fact supported by the Movement and your employer, Dr. Gaston knew that you really didn&#039 ; t really receive any negatives from him? MASON: No. Not from him. HUNTLEY: Were your church and other members of your church involved? Your pastor involved in the Movement at that time? MASON: That pastor, at that time I was a member of the 46th Street Baptist Church. That pastor did not become actively involved as far as the demonstrations and what not but he sanctioned everything that we did. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. And I am aware that that was a rather small church so it couldn&#039 ; t accommodate the meetings that they had? MASON: Right. Right. HUNTLEY: What benefits did you, your family and community realize as a result of the Movement? MASON: Well, I think we benefitted by doors being opened up for jobs and educational benefits and what not. It&#039 ; s, to me a self-esteem thing also. To let you know that you are somebody no matter what people may think of you and the color of your skin has nothing to do with the content of your brain. That&#039 ; s one of the things. HUNTLEY: Tell me just a little bit about how the choir would go from place to place. Did you ever go outside of Birmingham to give concerts? MASON: Oh, yes. And we gave a lot of concerts in the city. Many Sunday nights we were doing concerts at different churches as a fund raiser for them and for the Movement. And the money that we received, sometimes the money may be, was split between the church and the choir. The choir would report that money to the Movement. We reported thousands of dollars to the Movement. HUNTLEY: Why was the choir so important? MASON: If you take a church now, I think the musical staff, the choir is an important function of the church. So it was the same way with the Movement. There were people who came to church to hear the choir, who came to the mass meeting, who followed the mass meetings around from church to church to hear the choir and to hear different people sing. HUNTLEY: So, in effect, the Movement then was the church and the choir provided the music for that particular church? MASON: Yes. Exactly. I have heard people say some Sundays they would miss going to their church but they would not miss going to the mass meeting on Monday nights. HUNTLEY: The mass meeting was always packed? MASON: Oh, yes. Always packed. HUNTLEY: And you had people from all over the city? MASON: All over the city. Different churches, different denominations, you know. HUNTLEY: In just in closing, how would you assess the Movement, the Birmingham Movement? Was it a success? MASON: Yes. I think it was successful. We had leaders then that we could look up to. We had leaders that we believed were trying to do something to help us. When I came back here from Los Angeles. I came back to Birmingham from Los Angeles in September of 1992 and I was a little shocked. Because to me, something was wrong. I do not see the togetherness that we had in the 60s and it&#039 ; s sad to me. Very sad. Because people were together regardless of whether they were low class, middle class, high class, everybody was together. HUNTLEY: Why do you think there&#039 ; s a difference now than then? MASON: I don&#039 ; t know. I think we need a leader. We need a leader that can get us all together. We had a particular leader hear in Birmingham in Rev. Shuttlesworth who got the Movement started and who kept it going and even when he went to Cincinnati, it still continued to go on. And, of course, Dr. King was one of those rare kind of people who was well educated but who knew how to not look down on the lowest of people. To him, he recognized people as people, no matter what their status was in life. This is what we need. Someone who can recognize people as people. I remember him going to the pool hall and shooting pool with these people, you know, and down on 4th Avenue with people there. And know he could go anyplace. Nowhere was too low for him to go. In fact, to me he lived the kind of life like Jesus did. You know, Jesus Christ was the kind of person who did not look down on people. HUNTLEY: Do you think that these, that that togetherness could have been based upon the premise of everything being segregated so it put all of those different economic strata in the same pot? It did not matter how much money you had, all were the same? MASON: Right. Dr. Gaston was a millionaire but he still could not go to these places, you know that were segregated. No matter how much money he had, he couldn&#039 ; t go. And there was nothing he could do about going to these places until we, &quot ; little people&quot ; got on the streets and broke it down. We, who had no money. HUNTLEY: If I ask you to share with us your most vivid memory from the Movement during those Movement days, what would that be? MASON: My mind goes to now a time when we were at New Pilgrim Baptist Church on 6th Avenue South and marching to the jail. The person who was heading that march was Rev. Charles Billups who is now deceased. And there was this tank that Bull Conner was in and he tried to get the firemen to turn the hose on us. This fireman refused to turn the hose on us and he told him, &quot ; You turn it on yourself. I am not going to do that.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; All these good people wanted to do is to march and pray.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Let the good Reverend pray.&quot ; And we did. That was a time that we all rejoiced in seeing this fireman not do what Bull Conner was trying to demand him to do. He would not. I guess he said if I lose my job, that&#039 ; s fine. These people, all they want to do is march to the jail and kneel and pray. And he let us do that without turning the water on us. HUNTLEY: That was obviously not the norm for the Birmingham Fire Department? MASON: That&#039 ; s right. That was not. But Bull Conner had himself protected where nobody could get to him. He had the big tank all around him. You couldn&#039 ; t get to him at all. HUNTLEY: Well, is there anything else you would like to add that we have not dealt with? MASON: Yes, my main thing I would like to add is something about voter registration because that was something that was my pet peeve at that time. And now I think that people have gotten very slack about voting about even becoming qualified voters and you talk to young people when they are 18 and try to encourage them to become voters and they think that it is not going to do any good, but it will. Even though we have people who are qualified voters, who refuse to go to the polls and I think it&#039 ; s awful. Because we have people who lost their lives who were trying to become qualified voters. Not only Black people, white people also, who lost their lives. And I think it means more, should mean more to everyone to exercise the voting right. It is not being exercised and it really bothers me that that is not being exercised. HUNTLEY: I certainly appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to come down and sit with us today. And we are hopeful that we will get copies of this to you in the very near future. MASON: Well, thank you so much for inviting me. HUNTLEY: Thank you again. MASON: All right. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=MBMason1995.xml MBMason1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mamie Brown Mason Description An account of the resource Mamie Brown Mason discusses being arrested for sitting in at JJ Newberry's, working in voter registration and singing in the Freedom Choir. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950602M Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department JJ Newberry's (Birmingham, Ala.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-06-02 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video