2 20 102 https://bcriohp.org/files/original/b1f6af212795c42e223b12d86849d630.png af420d688ae199f68af7791309908532 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Lewis OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JLewis2005.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Campaign--Georgia--United States Congress Voter Registration--Photo ID OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 November 19, 2005 Congressman John Lewis 20051119L 0:41:44 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Parchman Penitentiary--Mississippi State Penitentiary--Jackson (Miss.) Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.) Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Campaign--Georgia--United States Congress Voter Registration--Photo ID John Lewis Horace Huntley Video 1:|15(10)|33(2)|46(14)|59(14)|74(12)|88(7)|98(1)|111(6)|126(5)|138(4)|153(9)|164(5)|178(9)|190(8)|200(12)|215(2)|225(1)|237(6)|248(9)|262(13)|277(12)|289(6)|303(8)|313(8)|327(2)|338(8)|349(9)|362(6)|374(6)|387(2)|398(1)|410(4)|420(2)|434(7)|444(7)|456(6)|466(3)|476(9)|485(5)|497(5)|510(8) 0 https://youtu.be/mQ2yJfhp508 YouTube video English 10 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Congressman John Lewis for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Interview introduction with Congressman John Lewis 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 31 Family Background Thank you ; it's really an honor to able to just sit with you today. Just let me talk just briefly, I'll ask you briefly about your-you were born in Alabama, is that correct? Congressman John Lewis discusses growing up on a farm in Troy Alabama details his parents' education. African Americans--Agriculture Fisk University ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Pike County (Ala.) ; Troy (Ala.) ; Tuskegee (Ala.) 155 Early Education That background, how did you happen to get to Fisk University? Congressman John Lewis expresses that his inspiration for getting a college education came from Martin Luther King Jr. Brundidge (Ala.) ; Fisk University ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; Parks, Rosa, 1913-2005 ; Pike County (Ala.) ; Troy State University 249 Attending American Baptist Theological Seminary I had my transcripts sent down and I never heard a word from the school, so I wrote a letter to Dr. King and Dr. King invited me to come to Montgomery to see him. Congressman John Lewis talks about attending the American Baptist Theological Seminary for four years before going on to continue his education at Fisk University. American Baptist Theological Seminary Civil rights movement ; Fisk University ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Nashville (Tenn.) 286 Joining the Movement At what point did you start, did you get actively involved with the movement while you were in Nashville? Congressman John Lewis explains how his start in the movement came from an invitation sent from Martin Luther King Jr. to come join them in Montgomery, Alabama. Abernathy, Ralph, 1926-1990 ; Bates, Daisy ; Central Tennessee College. Meharry Medical Department ; Fisk University ; Greyhound buses ; King, Coretta Scott, 1927-2006 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Lawson, James M., 1928- ; Marshall, Thurgood, 1908-1993 ; Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; Parks, Rosa, 1913-2005 ; Smith, Kelly Miller, 1920-1984 ; Troy (Ala.) 440 Attending Nonviolent Workshops and Sit-Ins And I started attending these nonviolent workshops at a little church near Fisk University campus, every Tuesday night a group of students from Fisk University, Meharry medical school, American Baptist, Tennessee State and Vanderbilt started studying the philosophy and the discipline of nonviolence. Congressman John Lewis discusses how he was trained on how to do nonviolent protest while he was going to school in Nashville, Tennessee. African Americans--Segregation ; Nonviolent protest--Civil Rights Movement--Southeast United States ; Sit-ins American Baptist Theological Seminary ; Barry, Marion, 1936- ; Civil Disobedience--South Africa--India--Gandhi, Mahatma (1869-1948) ; Fisk University ; Greensboro Sit-ins, Greensboro, N.C., 1960 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; LaFayette, Bernard, Jr. ; Lawson, James M., 1928- ; Meharry Medical College ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Nash, Diane, 1938- ; Nashville (Tenn.) ; Smith, Kelley ; Tennessee State University ; Vanderbilt University 646 Meeting with SNCC Were you involved with the initial meeting where SNCC was organized and at Shaw? Congressman John Lewis explains how he got involved with SNCC when they hosted their meeting in Atlanta, Georgia. Barry, Marion, 1936- ; Bevill, James, 1959- ; Fisk University ; LaFayette, Bernard, Jr. ; Lawson, James M., 1928- ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; Nash, Diane, 1938- ; Raleigh (N.C.) ; Shaw University ; Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.) 703 Going to Parchman Penitentiary &amp ; Voter Registration Now SNCC went in Mississippi and how was then called SNCC the new abolitionist in dealing with whole question of voter registration, can you just talk just a bit about that? Congressman John Lewis talks about riding a bus into Mississippi for the first time and being arrested, going to Parchman Prison for a little over a month, and leaving prison on a mission to register more Black voters. African Americans--Voter Registration ; American Salvation Army--Psalms ; Freedom Songs Alabama ; Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Greyhound buses ; Parchman Penitentiary--Mississippi State Penitentiary--Jackson (Miss.) 944 Becoming National Chair at SNCC In 1963, you became chair of SNCC ; tell me about how that evolved. Congressman John Lewis discusses moving to Atlanta and being elected to head the SNCC, then afterwards helping to organize the March on Washington. Atlanta (Ga.) ; Barry, Marion, 1936- ; Bevel, James L. (James Luther), 1936-2008 ; Forman, James, 1928-2005--Congress of Racial Equality ; Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; LaFayette, Bernard, Jr. ; March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) ; McDew, Charles ; Nash, Diane, 1938- ; Nashville (Tenn.)--Fisk University ; New York City ; Randolph, A. Philip (Asa Philip), 1889-1979 ; Wilkins, Roy, 1901-1981-- National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Young, Whitney M.--Urban League 1090 Statement at March on Washington During the March on Washington, when they were determining what you would say, and I guess the younger folks had developed a statement and A. Phillip Randolph thought it didn't meet his approval ; tell me about that and how that evolved. Congressman John Lewis explains rewriting his speech for the March on Washington due to worries of some of the language being inflammatory. African American--Civil Rights Movement--Speech--Legislation ; Women--South Africa--Social conditions Atlanta (Ga.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Bond, Julian, 1940- ; Cox, Courtland, 1941- ; Foreman, James, 1928-2005 ; Goldwater, Barry M. (Barry Morris), 1909-1998 ; Harlem (New York, N.Y.) ; Howard University ; Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 ; Kennedy, Robert F., 1925-1968 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Lincoln Memorial (Washington, D.C.) ; March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) ; Philadelphia (Pa.) ; Randolph, A. Philip (Asa Philip), 1889-1979 ; Rockefeller, Winthrop, 1912-1973 ; Rufus, Walter-- United Auto Workers ; Rustin, Bayard, 1912-1987 ; Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.) ; Wilkins, Roy, 1901-1981 ; Young, Whitney M. 1520 Appointment to Domestic Director of the ACTION Agency In 1977, President Carter pointed you to ACTION. Will you talk about what ACTION was and what it represented? Congressman John Lewis explains being appointed to the ACTION Agency and how it is an umbrella organization for antipoverty groups. AmeriCorps*VISTA ; Anti-poverty programs ; Peace Corps ; Volunteer Carter, Jimmy, 1924- 1580 Running for Atlanta City Council In '81 you were elected to Atlanta City Council- Congressman John Lewis discusses how he consulted Martin Luther King Sr. before running for, and being elected to, the Atlanta City Council. Atlanta (Ga.). City Council ; Campaigning King, Martin Luther, 1899-1984 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Washington D. C. 1645 Running for United States Congress You know, Congressman, I often wonder, and I don't know if you can answer this, but in Atlanta, people who were actively involved with the movement, became politically active there and were elected to officers. Congressman John Lewis details his campaign for the United States Congressional seat in 1985. Campaign--Georgia--United States Congress Birmingham (Ala.) ; Fowler, Wyche, 1940- ; Mississippi ; Nashville (Tenn.) ; Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) 1922 Addressing Key Issues in Congress That was a question I was going to ask is the key issues facing you in congress and this nation at this point? Congressman John Lewis outlines critical issues he and the country faced during his time in Congress. Gulf Coast--Infrastructure ; Healthcare--Human Right ; Peace ; Terrorism--United States--Prevention ; War and conflict in the Middle East ; Youth--Education Baghdad (Iraq) ; Mississippi--Alabama--Rebuild ; World War 2--Europe--Rebuild 2145 The Voting Rights Act of 1965 One final question, there is a continuing discussion about the Voting Rights Act of 1965 expiring in 2007, can you give us your take on that issue? Congressman John Lewis expresses how important the Voting Rights Act is and how if it were to expire, it would allow drastic regression in democratic participation. Language barriers ; Public Schools ; Voter Registration--Photo ID Africa ; Atlanta (Ga.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Central America ; Clark Atlanta University ; Congressional Black Caucus ; Eastern Europe ; Emory University ; Georgia State College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; Georgia Tech Research Institute. Economic Development Laboratory ; Haiti ; Jackson (Miss.) ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; New Orleans (La.) ; South America ; Spelman College ; University of Georgia 2481 Conclusion of Interview Congressman, I want to thank you for taking time out and again, we welcome you to Birmingham and we're looking forward to being with you this evening. Interview is concluded. Oral History Congressman John Lewis discusses his extensive work with SNCC during the Movement. He also details his political career that led him to serving in the United States Congress. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Congressman John Lewis for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I&#039 ; m Dr. Horace Huntley ; today&#039 ; s date is November 19, 2005. Thank you congressman for sitting in with us and welcome to Birmingham. LEWIS: Well thank you very much ; I&#039 ; m delighted and very happy to be here in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Thank you ; it&#039 ; s really an honor to able to just sit with you today. Just let me talk just briefly, I&#039 ; ll ask you briefly about your-you were born in Alabama, is that correct? LEWIS: I was born in Alabama, about 10 miles outside of Troy. Troy is between Tuskegee and Montgomery. I grew up there on a farm. HUNTLEY: And how many children? LEWIS: I had six brothers and three sisters. A lot of first cousins, my mother had eight brothers and one sister, they had a lot of children and so it was like a very large extended family. HUNTLEY: What about the education of your parents? LEWIS: My mother attended public schools in rural Pike County, Alabama and she went to the eight grades and my father went to the sixth grade. HUNTLEY: And what kind of work did they do? LEWIS: They had been sharecroppers. My mother and father had been sharecroppers on the same land that my great grandfather lived on and my grandfather. But back in 1944, when I was four years old, and I do remember when I was four my father had saved $300 and with the $300 he bought 110 acres of land and I remember when we moved from this farm to the land that my father had bought he had an old broken down car and in the back seat of the car was an old radio that operated on batteries and a dog named Riley. And I was in the back seat. HUNTLEY: It wasn&#039 ; t Governor Riley (jokingly)? LEWIS: Well there&#039 ; s a lady-- there was a Governor Riley. HUNTLEY: That background, how did you happen to get to Fisk University? LEWIS: Well, as I was growing up, I kept hearing people say, &quot ; Get an education, and get an education, so you won&#039 ; t t have to work so hard like we&#039 ; re doing.&quot ; And I wanted to get an education and I had wonderful teachers in these schools. The elementary school was a short distance from my house where we could walk down the hill and make it to the elementary school, but the middle school was seven miles away and we went on a bus, bus pass a white school and then the high school was located in a little town called Brundidge, it was called Pike County Training School, during those days in Alabama, many of the rural county high schools were called training schools and the white schools were called just high school. And I had this wonderful teacher who was from Montgomery and she would tell me, read my child, read, read everything and I read everything I could. And then in 1955, I heard about Rosa Parks, heard about Dr. King, I heard Dr. King&#039 ; s voice over a little radio. And my first desire was to go to Morehouse, because Dr. King had attended Morehouse. So, when I finished high school in May of 1957, I sent an application to Troy State, I didn&#039 ; t tell my mother, didn&#039 ; t tell my father, any of my teachers. I had my transcripts sent down and I never heard a word from the school, so I wrote a letter to Dr. King and Dr. King invited me to come to Montgomery to see him but in the meantime, I had been accept at a little college in Nashville called American Baptist Theological Seminary. It was a college of the Bible, so I went off to there for four years and after being there, I continued to study and I got involved in the Civil Rights Movement and from being in Nashville, then I went to Fisk for two years and studied philosophy and religion. HUNTLEY: At what point did you start, did you get actively involved with the movement while you were in Nashville? LEWIS: Well, it was in, I met Dr. King March of 1958 when I was eighteen years old. He had invited me to come to Montgomery to see him, when I was home for spring break, I went up by Greyhound bus from Troy to Montgomery and arrived at the Greyhound bus station in downtown Montgomery. Fred Gray was the lawyer for Rosa Parks, for Dr. King in the Montgomery Movement. We met at the Greyhound bus station and drove me to the First Baptist Church on Ripley Street, pastored by the Rev. Abernathy, and ushered me into the offices of the church, I guess the pastor&#039 ; s study and I saw Dr. King and Ralph Abernathy standing behind a desk. I was so scared ; I didn&#039 ; t know what to say or what to do. And Dr. King spoke up and said, &quot ; Oh you&#039 ; re the boy from Troy, are you John Lewis?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; Dr. King, I&#039 ; m John Robert Lewis.&quot ; I gave him my whole name. And that was the beginning of my relationship with Dr. King. And so I went back to Nashville and continued to study there and it was there that I first heard Rosa Parks. She would come and tell the story of the movement. Thurgood Marshall would come, Daisy Bates, Mrs. King would come and speak and we hear these folks coming to Nashville, Coretta Scott King would come and tell the story of the Montgomery Bus Boycott through songs and they were so inspiring and I wanted to find a way, I went to a little church, called the First Baptist Church in downtown Nashville pastored by the Rev. Kelley Miller Smith, who was a friend of Martin Luther King, Jr. they both had gone to Morehouse. Kelley Miller Smith was from Mt. Bayou, MS ; he was one of the great ministers, He couldn&#039 ; t really preach and just tell a story and many of the lawyers and doctors and professors from Fisk and Meharry Medical School in Tennessee State attended this church. And so one Sunday morning I was there, Kelley Miller Smith announced from the pulpit that a young minister by the name of James Lawson, Jim Lawson, will be conducting nonviolent workshop and the people were welcomed to come. And I started attending these nonviolent workshops at a little church near Fisk University campus, every Tuesday night a group of students from Fisk University, Meharry medical school, American Baptist, Tennessee State and Vanderbilt started studying the philosophy and the discipline of nonviolence. We studied the great religions of the world. We studied what Martin Luther King, Jr. was all about in Montgomery. We studied the role in civil disobedience, what Gandhi attempted to do in South Africa, what he had accomplished in India. And we had what we called test sit-ins. In November and December 1959, before the sit ins started in Greensboro, NC, we had tested this, a group of Black and white students would go downtown to those large department stores and try to be served and we were told that blacks and whites could not be served together. HUNTLEY: Was Diane Nash apart of that group? LEWIS: Diane Nash, Marion Barry, Bernard Lafayette and several other young people and we just went there to establish a fight that we couldn&#039 ; t be served and we continued the nonviolent workshops and after we came back from the Christmas holidays, we had planned to start sitting in on a regular basis. And the sit-ins started on Feb. 1 in Greensboro, NC and a young minister there called Jim Lawson and said &quot ; what can the students in Nashville do to be supportive of the students in North Carolina. &quot ; And these two young Methodist ministers knew each other and Jim told them what we&#039 ; ve been conducting these nonviolent workshop, we had test sit-ins and we&#039 ; re ready to start sitting in and we started sitting in on a regular basis in Nashville by the hundreds, five and six hundred students would come down, especially what we called t-days, Tuesday and Thursday, lack class days on&#039 ; Saturday. And we would hear from time to time, five hundred or a thousand students together at a church to go downtown to sit in. And when we sit in there in an orderly peaceful nonviolent fashion, waiting to be served and someone would come up and spit on us, put a lighted cigarette out in our hair or down our backs, pull us off the lunch counter stool and beat us and the Nashville sit-in movement became the first place where there was a mass arrest on February 27th 1960, 89 of us were arrested and taken to jail. HUNTLEY: Nashville then of course was in the forefront of the sit-in movement? LEWIS: Well it was because I think of the leadership of Jim Lawson and Kelley Miller Smith. And Dr. King would come there to speak to inspire, and encourage people and he would say things like the Nashville student movement is the most disciplined, the most organized, has a deep understanding of the philosophy in nonviolence that was very inspiring to us. He would come to Fisk University and speak in the gym and there would just hundreds and thousands of people trying to get in. And so we sort of reconnected and I stayed in touch with him during that period. HUNTLEY: Were you involved with the initial meeting where SNCC was organized and at Shaw? LEWIS: In Raleigh, North Carolina, Easter weekend April 1960. I didn&#039 ; t go to Raleigh, but a group of delegation from Nashville included Diane Nash, James Bevill and Bernard Lafayette, and Marion Barry, because it was at that meeting at Shaw University that Easter weekend that Marion was elected the temporary chair of the temporary Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and then October of the same year, this group, a similar met on the Atlanta University campus or at Morehouse campus, in Atlanta and SNCC became a permanent organization and I was at that meeting. HUNTLEY: Now SNCC went in Mississippi and how was then called SNCC the new abolitionist in dealing with whole question of voter registration, can you just talk just a bit about that? LEWIS: Well in 1961, after the freedom rides, SNCC went into Mississippi. it was very dangerous, and it was like putting your life on the line, For many of us. We went into Mississippi in May of 1961, my first trip to Mississippi, growing up in Alabama, I thought Alabama was bad, but to cross that line in going to Mississippi, it was very dangerous. Because of what happened during the freedom ride, we arrive at the greyhound bus station in Jackson, we were arrested, taken to city jail, filled the city jail, later to the county jail, we filled the county jail, people kept coming. They put us in the state penitentiary at Parchman- HUNTLEY: How long were you in Parchman? LEWIS: I stayed in Parchman for about 37 days, I didn&#039 ; t know what was going to happen to us in Parchman, whether we would ever get out of Parchman, because the moment we arrived in Parchman, they brought a group of black and white Freedom Rider men on a big truck and they brought women in the van and the moment we walked into what they called maximum security unit, there was guy standing there with this gun, his rifle drawn, and he said, &quot ; Sing your goddamn freedom songs now, we have niggers here that would beat you or eat you up.&quot ; I didn&#039 ; t know what was going to happen. And they ordered us in to a room and down a long hallway, they had all of the guys standing and they ordered each one of us to take our clothes off and so about a half an hour or longer, we stood and no one had any clothing on and then in two&#039 ; s they led us to take showers and if you had any facial hair, beard, a mustache, you have to shave it off and while you&#039 ; re there shaving or taking a shower, the guys still had their guns drawn on you and after you finish your shower, then they led you in two&#039 ; s to a jail cell, without any clothing and then maybe an hour later, they come and give you a pair, Mississippi state penitentiary, sort of greenish shorts and undershirt and that&#039 ; s what we kept on our entire stay there. You take a shower once a week, couldn&#039 ; t read a book. a man from the Salvation Army came by and gave us the New Testament and the Psalms and I remember it so well, Bernard Lafayette wrote in my little New Testament, &quot ; presented to John Robert Lewis, June 21, 1961, by a man from the Salvation Army.&quot ; That was Mississippi and then therefore the members of the student nonviolent coordinating committee, for all of &#039 ; 61, in the spring of &#039 ; 62, started organizing in the heart of Mississippi, trying to get people ready to vote. The state of Mississippi in 1961 and 1962,3,4 and 5, had a black voting-age population of more than 450,000, but only about 16 or 18,000 Blacks were registered to vote. There was so much fear. People afraid and they called us all the freedom riders, like here come the freedom riders, it was like Paul Revere corning, here comes the freedom riders. HUNTLEY: In 1963, you became chair of SNCC ; tell me about how that evolved. LEWIS: I&#039 ; ve been very active after Diane Nash and James Bevill and Bernard Lafayette left Nashville. I was still in Nashville as a student at Fisk, but still active in the movement there, in the local movement. And I think after Marion Barry left as chair and another young man, by the name of Chuck McDew, what we called the Central Committee of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, met in Atlanta and they elected me the national chair of the student nonviolent coordinating committee in June of 1963. I moved to Atlanta at the age of 23, and seven days later, I was invited along with Martin Luther King, Jr., A. Phillip Randolph, Whitney Young of the Urban League, James Foreman of CORE, Roy Wilkins of NAACP, and others from different other organizations had a meeting at the White House to meet with Pres. Kennedy. And it was in that meeting that A. Phillip Randolph said to Pres. Kennedy that the masses are restless, the Black masses are restless and we&#039 ; re going to march on Washington. And you could tell by their very body language of Pres. Kennedy, he didn&#039 ; t like what he heard, and he said, &quot ; Mr. Randolph or Brother Randolph, if you bring all of these people to Washington, won&#039 ; t there be violence and disorder and chaos? We would never get a civil rights bill through to congress.&quot ; Mr. Randolph responded and said, &quot ; Mr. President, this will be an orderly, peaceful, nonviolent protest.&quot ; And so, after that meeting, we came out and had a few words with the media said that we had a meaningful discussion with the president and we&#039 ; re going to have a March on Washington and a few days later, to be exact, I think it was July 2, 1963. The six of us met in New York City and issued the call for the March on Washington and invited four major white religious and labor leaders to join us in issuing the call for the March on Washington. HUNTLEY: During the March on Washington, when they were determining what you would say, and I guess the younger folks had developed a statement and A. Phillip Randolph thought it didn&#039 ; t meet his approval ; tell me about that and how that evolved. LEWIS: Well we all, the ten, the six black leaders, heads of organization, plus the four whiteheads&#039 ; organization, they all had to prepare statements and to make them available the night before the March on Washington. Julian Bond, whose very much a part of the Atlanta student movement was the communication director for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. And he had gotten advanced copies of my prepared speech and made it available to the media, and so it got out and the other people saw it. They would say things in their speech that people didn&#039 ; t like. We all would stand at the Hilton Hotel at 16th and K. And someone knocked on my door that night before the march and it was Ben Rustin and Ben Rustin said, &quot ; John, come downstairs to the meeting, there&#039 ; s some problem with your speech.&quot ; And I went down for this meeting with other people from the student nonviolent coordinating committee and Walter Rufus from the UAW, somebody representing Martin Luther King, I think it was Walter, Roy, someone representing Roy Wilkins and Whitney Young and James Foreman. And people had some problems, one part of the speech said something like, &quot ; In good conscience we cannot support the administration&#039 ; s Civil Rights Bill, for it was too little too late.&quot ; And I went on to say, &quot ; There&#039 ; s not anything in this bill that would protect old women and young children, involving peaceful nonviolent protest run down by policemen on horseback and chased by police dogs or something like.&quot ; Then down there in the bottom of the speech I said something like, &quot ; We&#039 ; re involving a serious revolution.&quot ; &quot ; Listen Mr. President, you&#039 ; re trying to take the revolution out of the streets and put it in the courts1md when it was a lot of rhetoric saying, you tell us to wait, you tell us to be patient, we cannot wait, we cannot be patient, we want our freedom and we want it now!&quot ; Now at one point Vie(?) said to me, he was sort of joking, he said, &quot ; John, you know, say we cannot be patient, that may offensive to the Catholic Church, people believe in being patient.&quot ; The Archbishop of the Diocese of Washington, Archbishop Obald had threatened not to give the implication if I kept the speech, so that was just sort of the beginning and I think Walter Rufus and some people in the Kennedy administration, some people think was Bobby Kennedy who had got to the bishop and was putting pressure on him to say to A. Phillip Randolph and to Dr. King that John Lewis must change his speech. But what they really were troubled with, I said something like, &quot ; The party of Kennedy is the party of the Eastland, the former, the late senator, the Mississippi, who owned a plantation and treated black people in Mississippi like they were not even human. And they also said that the party of Rockefeller is the party of Goldwater, in reference to the conservative senator from Arizona, Barry Goldwater and then I said, &quot ; Where is our party, where is our party?&quot ; And I raised a question, I wanted to know which side was the federal government on, but then before I ended the speech, early when I was working on a speech, I read a copy of the New York Times a few days earlier. I saw a group of Black women in a southern Africa, carrying signs saying one man, one vote. So in my prepared text, I said something like, &quot ; One man, one vote is the African cry, it is ours too, it must be ours.&quot ; And that became the rallying cry for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. But at the end of the speech I said something like, &quot ; If you do not see meaningful progress here today, the day may come when we will not confine our marching on Washington, but we may be forced to march through the South. They said Sherman did, nonviolently.&quot ; And they objected to that, they thought it was too inflammatory, thought I was calling for violence. So we make the other changes, but the next day, even as the march started, all of us had gone up to Capitol Hill, met with the congressional leaders, we had marched to the steps of the Lincoln Memorial and Mr. Randolph and Dr. King said, &quot ; John is there a problem with the speech?&quot ; So we met to the right side for Mr. Lincoln, away from the march, the platform and we started going through the speech and James Foreman, the executive director of SNCC and a young man by the name of Courtland Cox, who was a student, had been a student at Howard, very active. The three of us were conferring with A. Phillip Randolph, Roy Wilkins and Dr. King and at one point ; Mr. Wilkins says, &quot ; We really got to change that, John.&quot ; And so I sort of said, &#039 ; &#039 ; You know this is my speech, this is a speech of those of us from the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and the reflective feeling and the attitude of the people that we&#039 ; ve been working with.&quot ; And another point, Dr. King says, &quot ; John that doesn&#039 ; t sound like you?&quot ; And then Mr. Randolph said something like, &quot ; John we&#039 ; ve come this far together for sake of unity ; for the sake of staying together, can we make these changes in reference to Sherman?&quot ; But there were some people who wanted me to change or delete the word revolution, delete the phrase, black masters and A Phillip Randolph came to my rescue and he said, &quot ; There&#039 ; s nothing wrong with the use of the word revolution, I use it myself sometimes, there&#039 ; s nothing wrong with black masters, I use that also.&quot ; So we decided to delete any reference to Sherman and I sort of said, &quot ; If we do not see meaningful progress here today, the day may come when we will march through certain cities.&quot ; And I called Birmingham and Atlanta maybe and Philadelphia, Harlem and different places. HUNTLEY: In 1977, President Carter appointed you to ACTION. Will you talk about what ACTION was and what it represented? LEWIS: Well in 1977 when I was appointed as the domestic director for the ACTION agency, it was the umbrella for several antipoverty type programs, hundreds and thousands of volunteers, old American volunteers, something we called foster grandparents, but it also, VISTA volunteers. Vista volunteers people to go and work in low-income neighborhoods and areas. It was in a sense the domestic Peace Corps, trying to help alleviate poverty, using the resources and skills of young people as well as senior citizens. HUNTLEY: In &#039 ; 81 you were elected to Atlanta city council- LEWIS: But in 1980, I went back to Atlanta, left Washington, went back to Atlanta and decided to run for a city council seat. And I remember having a discussion with Daddy King, the father of Martin Luther King, Jr. He was my pastor and he said to me, John we cannot defeat this man, his family own a beauty barber supply, they come to our weddings and our funerals, you just cannot defeat him, but if you decide to run, we&#039 ; re going to support you. So I got out there in 1981, ran city-wide, had a wonderful group of young people, a lot of students and campaigned all over the city and got 69.8% of the vote. I see that the guy who had been on the city council for 24 years. HUNTLEY: You know, congressman, I often wonder, and I don&#039 ; t know if you can answer this, but in Atlanta, people who were actively involved with the movement, became politically active there and were elected to officers. Birmingham, that didn&#039 ; t happen, and you know we&#039 ; re still discussing that, well why in Atlanta and not in Birmingham, but that&#039 ; s an issue that we&#039 ; ll deal with at another time, but I just wanted to throw that out. But in &#039 ; 86 you then were elected to congress, the 5th District of Georgia. Tell me about that. LEWIS: Well, in 1985, the fall of&#039 ; 85, I had just been reelected as a member of the Atlanta City council and a few days later, the young man by the name of Wyche Fowler, who was holding the congressional seat, informed me that he was going to run for the senate and give up the seat and I made up in my mind then that I was going to run for that congressional seat. So I called Julian or Julian called me, somehow we made a decision to have lunch together. Julian had been in the state house for 10 years and 10 years in the state senate, so we went to lunch because I knew he was interested in running for the seat and I was interested in running for the seat. And we had been good friends, very, very close, wonderful friends. At this lunch, I said something like, &quot ; Senator, what are you going to do?&quot ; He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m running for Congress.&quot ; And he called me Mr. Chairman ; he always called me Mr. Chairman since I had been the chair of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. He said, &quot ; Mr. Chairman, what are you going to do?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to run for congress, I guess I&#039 ; ll see you on the campaign trail.&quot ; That was the shortest lunch we ever had together, that was the most difficult campaign, probably the most difficult thing I ever done in my life really. It was much more difficult to run for congress with someone that you love and struggle with and fought with, much more difficult than walking across a bridge in Selma. And we got out there, he wanted to go to Congress, I wanted to go too. It was probably the most publicized Congressional campaign of1986 during that year. It was hard, it was very tough, it was several of us running in the primary, but I knew Julian is very good ; he is very, very good. He was well known, he was born in Nashville, but he was almost a native of Atlanta, could have been in Georgia politics for more than 20 years. So I got out there and I had to become known, I was better known in Alabama probably, better known Mississippi and probably in South Georgia than in Atlanta, because a lot of my workers, not necessarily in Atlanta, it was other parts of the south, other parts of the country. So I got out there and I worked night and day, sometimes 24 hours and I kept saying during the campaign, send to Washington a workhorse, not a show horse. I kept saying send to Washington a tugboat, not a showboat, it was not a necessary reference to Julian, but there were a lot of people running at that time. And then in the primary, it came down to the two of us. And we had a run-off, but earlier Julian received 47% of the vote, almost won it without a run-off. I got only 35% of the vote. Three weeks later, I went up 17 points, he went up 1 point. I knew if it came down to one-on-one, that I would outwork him, and the voters saw me working and they turned toward me. It was a powerful coalition that came together, and I haven&#039 ; t had as tough a race since, it was very difficult, very hard and for a while, there was a schism that existed between us, but now we&#039 ; re back friends and buddies. HUNTLEY: That was a question I was going to ask is the key issues facing you in congress and this nation at this point? LEWIS: At this point, I think the nation, those of us in Congress, and the American people, got to find a way to bring the madness to an end. We got to stop the violence, this war ; it is tampering really with the very soul of America. Sometimes I feel like we&#039 ; ve lost our sense of direction, our sense of purpose. This is an unnecessary war and it makes me so sad when I hear that another group of people been killed in Iraq, not just our own men and women, but the innocent citizens there. I think there&#039 ; s more terrorism now, it&#039 ; s a greater degree of violence because of what we&#039 ; ve done and my greatest fear if this war continues much longer, that the generation, the young people growing up in the middle east, and they will hate generations of Americans for year to come. We&#039 ; ve got to find a way to end it, bring the people home and try to reconnect with our allies and make the world a little more peaceful. HUNTLEY: Do you see that happening in the near future? LEWIS: I think it will happen, I think it will happen in the near future because all of the surveys, all of the polling data saying that the American people are sick, they&#039 ; re sick and tired of this war. They&#039 ; re saying that there&#039 ; s no justification for it, they believe like so many of us in the Congress believed that we were misled, many of our great majority of the Democrats, especially the great majority of African­ American members of congress didn&#039 ; t vote to go to war. And in addition, we got to do something at home about seeing that all of our young people get the best possible education, we got to see that all of our citizens have access to good healthcare, I believe that healthcare is a human right and that the quality of the person&#039 ; s healthcare shouldn&#039 ; t be decided on the basis of the size of that person&#039 ; s wallet, or the zip code that that person lives in and we got to rebuild, we got to spend the necessary dollars to rebuild the gulf coast, including New Orleans. We&#039 ; ve got to rebuild places in Mississippi and in Alabama, if we can rebuild Europe after WWII, and we&#039 ; re spending billions of dollars to help rebuild Baghdad and other parts of Iraq, after we&#039 ; ve destroyed it, we got to, not just build the physical structure of these places, we got to help rebuild the lives of people. HUNTLEY: One final question, there is a continuing discussion about the Voting Rights Act of1965 expiring in 2007, can you give us your take on that issue? LEWIS: The Voting Rights Act of1965 is still the most powerful nonviolent and perhaps one of the most progressive pieces of legislation that we&#039 ; ve bad for many, many years, because it not only liberated blacks, but also it helped to liberated whites also. And one thing about white politicians, especially those in the south, they can count and they see all of these black people getting registered and voting, then they have to make some special efforts to see that their people get services and that they be responsive to the needs of these people. They&#039 ; re people today, who would like to elect those section of the Voting Rights Act that going to expire in &#039 ; 07, they would like to them die. There&#039 ; s a section called Section 5, it deals with whole question, if any city of Birmingham, Atlanta, or Montgomery, or New Orleans, or Jackson, Mississippi, decided to change location of precincts, or decided to change from at large election to single member district, to jerrymander in a way, they have to get approval from the Voting Rights Section of the Department of justice. Those of us in the Congressional Black Caucus and the majority members of the Congress shall then, take the position that the Voting Rights Act, in those sections, Section 5 and others were good and necessary in &#039 ; 65, they&#039 ; re good and necessary now. If we don&#039 ; t renew or extend it, there&#039 ; s a possibility that we can go back. You can use Georgia as a simple example, the State Legislature in Georgia, the first part 2005, passed a piece of legislation saying that you must have an official state photo ID to be able to vote. Now in many parts of Georgia, to get a state ID, they can cost $25 or $30, so some of us call that modem poll tax, you can have a driver&#039 ; s license, but there are many people 80 and 90 years old or 75 years old without a driver&#039 ; s license and if you&#039 ; re a student at Georgia Tech, or Georgia State, or the University of Georgia, you can you use your student id, because these are state schools, but if you&#039 ; re a student at Morehouse or Spelman or Clarke Atlanta University, Emory, these are private schools, so your student ID wouldn&#039 ; t count. So there&#039 ; s an extra burden, so in order for something like that to be disapproved or approved, we need Section 5 to say to the state of Georgia that is wrong and what we just had happen in Georgia, the career attorneys in the Department of Justice said this is wrong, it shouldn&#039 ; t happen. It violates the Voting Rights Act, the spirit and the letter of the Voting Right Act. These are the 4 out of the 5 of career attorneys in the Department of Justice, but then the political attorneys came in, appointed by Pres. Bush, they said, &quot ; Oh no, it&#039 ; s okay.&quot ; And so it&#039 ; s all coming out and then the other section that is scheduled, Section 203, deals with the whole question of language, if you speak Spanish, if you only know Spanish, maybe some eastern European language or some native American language, then we&#039 ; re saying that the voter registration form and the ballot should be in those language. And some people said those sections should expire, but if you want everybody who are citizens and they&#039 ; re registered, they should be able to participate, so you keep Section 5 and you keep the language of the other section also. And I think when the Congress debates it later this year or earlier &#039 ; 06, we will renew and extend the Voting Rights Act. No one, no one, unless they just come from another planet, wants to be on the wrong side of this issue, because it is a powerful political issue. We cannot go back, we cannot stand still, we got to continue to open up the political process and let all of our citizens come in, including the new immigrants, whether they&#039 ; re from Central and South America, whether they&#039 ; re from Haiti or from Africa, from EasternEurope, whether they&#039 ; re the people who&#039 ; ve been living here all the time, but is not fluent in English. HUNTLEY: Congressman, I want to thank you for taking time out and again, we welcome you to Birmingham and we&#039 ; re looking forward to being with you this evening. LEWIS: Well thank you very much, I&#039 ; m delighted and very pleased to be in Birmingham, I&#039 ; ve always enjoyed coming here and especially coming to the Civil Rights Institute. HUNTLEY: Thank you. LEWIS: Thank you sir. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JLewis2005.xml JLewis2005.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Congressman John Lewis Description An account of the resource Congressman John Lewis discusses his extensive work with SNCC during the Movement. He also details his political career that led him to serving in the United States Congress. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 20051119L Subject The topic of the resource Parchman Penitentiary--Mississippi State Penitentiary--Jackson (Miss.) Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.) Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-11-19 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/b4da1c3993fc917d997d00678f7eadc6.jpg 6eff79d72bdf29121f34064b6f900ffa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Daisy Jeffries OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=DJefferies1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Sit-ins Mass Meeting OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 May 12, 1995 Daisy Jeffries 19950512J 0:23:34 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham NAACP Sit-ins Mass Meeting Daisy Jeffries Horace Huntley Video 1:|1(2)|19(5)|79(8)|105(4)|126(6)|143(4)|158(1)|181(9)|192(4)|206(5)|221(7)|243(9)|253(13)|253(15)|253(17)|267(15)|282(12)|302(11)|314(12)|325(13)|345(14)|360(17)|378(9) 0 https://youtu.be/fCxU6prkJhg YouTube video English 63 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Ms. Daisy Jeffries for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 79 Background and Educational Journey Yes, ma'am. I just want to start out by asking some general types of questions. Jeffries tells details about her family and where she went to school and college. Miles College ; Parker High School Birmingham (Ala.) 243 Living in Enon Ridge Community What we are doing, we are attempting to get information about how Birmingham developed over time and you, by living in Enon Ridge, how would you describe Enon Ridge as a community in the time that you were living there, in the early days? Jeffries describes her neighborhood and how it was a nice place to live. Enon Ridge Birmingham (Ala.) 321 Involvement with the NAACP Were you a member of any community organizations? Jeffries discusses her involvement in the NAACP and how the police would come to their meetings to try and scare them. Mass Meeting ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Sardis Baptist Church Birmingham (Ala.) ; Police brutality--United States 462 How She Got Involved with the Movement Tell me, how did you get involved in the Movement? Jeffries recalls how she got involved in the movement because her church was involved in the movement. Civil rights movement ; Sardis Baptist Church Birmingham (Ala.) 573 Attending Mass Meetings Did you attend the Movement's mass meetings? Jeffries recalls how most everyone came to the meetings including the police and how she avoided going to jail twice. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Civil rights movement ; Mass Meeting Birmingham (Ala.) 728 Her Family's Participation in the Movement Did others in your family participate? Jeffries recalls how her husband couldn't participate because of his job but tells how she was never afraid of losing her job due to her involvement. ACIPCO ; Civil rights movement American Cast Iron Pipe Company ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1050 Marching in the 1963 Demonstrations In 1963, when the demonstrations took place here in Birmingham, were you actively involved? Jeffries discusses how she marched in the 1963 demonstrations and how she wasn't afraid of anything. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama Birmingham (Ala.) 1109 Success of the Movement and Avoiding Jail How would you asses the Birmingham Movement? Do you think it was successful? Jeffries tells how she thinks the movement was very successful and describes how she avoided jail for a third time. Civil rights movement ; Ku Klux Klan Birmingham (Ala.) 1243 Coordinating Sit-ins Is there anything else that you would like to add that we haven't dealt with that relates to the Movement? Jeffries discusses how she organized sit-ins and became a leader in her church for the movement. Civil rights movement ; Sardis Baptist Church ; Sit-in Birmingham (Ala.) 1362 Conclusion of Interview Ms. Jeffries, I want to thank you for coming out and spending this time with us today because you have been very helpful. Interview is concluded. Oral History Daisy Jeffries discusses avoiding jail despite being very active in the Movement, including coordinating sit-in demonstrations. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Daisy Jeffries for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is May 12, 1995. Thank you Ms. Jeffries for coming out and sitting and talking with us today JEFFRIES: I appreciate the invitation. HUNTLEY: Yes, ma&#039 ; am. I just want to start out by asking some general types of questions. Where are you from originally? Where were you born? JEFFRIES: I was born in Demopolis, Alabama. HUNTLEY: In Demopolis. And you went to elementary school and high school in Demopolis? JEFFRIES: I went to elementary school in Demopolis. And when we moved to Gallion, Alabama, I went to Stillman Elementary School. And then we moved. I had an aunt that lived in Demopolis and I lived with her while I went to school. HUNTLEY: So you came to Birmingham after you finished high school? JEFFRIES: Yes. After I finished high school, I came to Birmingham and went back to school. HUNTLEY: Where did you go to school then? JEFFRIES: Oh, I went to Parker. They had these classes down there that they called them, addition to school that you had already had. HUNTLEY: The Parker Annex? JEFFRIES: Oh, quite a few of us went to Parker. HUNTLEY: And you graduated from Parker? JEFFRIES: I did. HUNTLEY: And then where did you go to college? JEFFRIES: Miles College. I graduated from Miles. JEFFRIES: I appreciate the invitation. HUNTLEY: Yes, ma&#039 ; am. I just want to start out by asking some general types of questions. Where are you from originally? Where were you born? JEFFRIES: I was born in Demopolis, Alabama. HUNTLEY: In Demopolis. And you went to elementary school and high school in Demopolis? JEFFRIES: I went to elementary school in Demopolis. And when we moved to Gallion, Alabama, I went to Stillman Elementary School. And then we moved. I had an aunt that lived in Demopolis and I lived with her while I went to school. HUNTLEY: So you came to Birmingham after you finished high school? JEFFRIES: Yes. After I finished high school, I came to Birmingham and went back to school. HUNTLEY: Where did you go to school then? JEFFRIES: Oh, I went to Parker. They had these classes down there that they called them, addition to school that you had already had. HUNTLEY: The Parker Annex? JEFFRIES: Oh, quite a few of us went to Parker. HUNTLEY: And you graduated from Parker? JEFFRIES: I did. HUNTLEY: And then where did you go to college? JEFFRIES: Miles College. I graduated from Miles. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have? JEFFRIES: I had three brothers. I never had any sisters. I had three brothers and all three of them have passed on. HUNTLEY: The only girl? JEFFRIES: The only one left now. HUNTLEY: Right. Were your parents from Demopolis as well, both of them? JEFFRIES: Both of them. They moved to Gallion, Alabama. That&#039 ; s where they were really from. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did they do? JEFFRIES: Well, my father was a Baptist preacher, and Mommy worked. Women didn&#039 ; t work a lot out, you know, she just worked around the house. She never had a job out, she just kept house. HUNTLEY: She was a housewife? JEFFRIES: Yes. And he preached and had a little farm like. My brothers worked. One of my oldest brothers worked out, but he drowned. HUNTLEY: Was that here in Birmingham? JEFFRIES: No. In Gallion, where we were. HUNTLEY: Is that Gallion? JEFFRIES: G-A-L-L-I-O-N. HUNTLEY: What we are doing, we are attempting to get information about how Birmingham developed over time and you, by living in Enon Ridge, how would you describe Enon Ridge as a community in the time that you were living there, in the early days? JEFFRIES: Enon Ridge was up the hill from Smithfield. Fine hard-working people, nice homes and Churches. It consists of Tuggle School and down the hill to Parker High School. Well, when I first moved there, I always thought it was a nice place, it was a quiet place and the people believed in owning something or having something. It had several churches there and it was just a small, nice neighborhood. Everybody knew everybody, helped everybody. HUNTLEY: What were the occupations of people that lived there? You finished Miles and you were a teacher, right? JEFFRIES: Yes, that&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: What other kinds of occupations were in your neighborhood? JEFFRIES: Well, quite a few went to school. Quite a few finished Miles with me. And, of course, went into work business, you know how they had work going on, especially boys. A lot of them went into work business. But quite a few went to school. HUNTLEY: Were you a member of any community organizations? JEFFRIES: Oh, yes. I can&#039 ; t remember. HUNTLEY: Were you ever a member of the NAACP? JEFFRIES: Oh, yes. I could have brought you a book about that. Yes-- we went at night and met and night when the other people were afraid. Yes, I was quite an NAACP person. I always have been a civic minded person and I work with them now. HUNTLEY: Well, what were some of the issues that you were concerned about as a member of the NAACP? JEFFRIES: We broke down a lot of barriers. We went to a lot of places Black folks hadn&#039 ; t ever been. I guess being reared with boys, I had never been, what you call a scary person. And I would go &quot ; Are we going to such and such place tonight?&quot ; And at that time, they were really rough. They were bombing all around the place. If they found your meeting place, but I never was afraid and wherever they went, I went too. HUNTLEY: You say you were going various places? JEFFRIES: Yes. The churches, even at our church, Sardis Baptist Church and we had meetings there when people were afraid to come and most of the churches around 16th Street, most of the churches around there. We went, we was going to see what went on then. And you know in all of that fear, we weren&#039 ; t afraid of anybody. All that fear went away. The police all in a line, parked, we walked right by them like they weren&#039 ; t even there and they finally quit coming. HUNTLEY: This was at the meetings? JEFFRIES: Yes. Police was at the meetings. They thought that would frighten you from coming and we went right on with them. Wherever the boys went we went right on with them. But those were some tough times in those days. HUNTLEY: Were there other teachers involved? JEFFRIES: A few. They were afraid of losing their job. But I told them I lived a long time before I taught and I thought I could live on. I didn&#039 ; t think about getting fired. I don&#039 ; t guess I had sense enough. HUNTLEY: Tell me, how did you get involved in the Movement? What were the circumstances of your getting involved? JEFFRIES: Our church was involved. HUNTLEY: And what church was that? JEFFRIES: Sardis Baptist Church up on the hill. Well, this is walking distance from my house. But it was some people there and we had a pastor, Rev. C. H. George, he was an elderly man, but he wasn&#039 ; t afraid of anything and that&#039 ; s where we got our encouragement from him. And we had our meeting and sometimes we would get there and the police just almost like people dropping handkerchiefs, standing all around the door and we would go there and stand and finally they would move and let us come in. I got to the place we just weren&#039 ; t afraid of anything. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in sit-ins or any of the big demonstrations? JEFFRIES: No. I didn&#039 ; t go out. Well, we did most of this around the churches, at home. Quite a few of them did, buses and all that kind of thing. But we did help to integrate the buses because we would just get on, we weren&#039 ; t going anywhere. But get on and sit down and they would look at us. And when they got through looking then they would get off. It was interesting though. The things that we went through, you just wouldn&#039 ; t think people with good sense, they told us we didn&#039 ; t have good sense. And most of a lot of the older people was afraid that they were going to bomb their houses and all that kind of thing. But it was something and when I think about it now, it was amazing, but we didn&#039 ; t think about being afraid. HUNTLEY: Did you attend the Movement&#039 ; s mass meetings? JEFFRIES: Yes. When it was, as they say, &quot ; When it got so hot.&quot ; We were having meetings every night, every night. Most of the churches around, some was afraid for us to come and our church started it off and then the others and Rev. C. H. George was kind of elderly man that pastored our church, he wasn&#039 ; t afraid of anything and that gave us more courage. It was interesting and I think about it now and I wonder how did we do it. HUNTLEY: How would you describe a typical mass meeting? JEFFRIES: Well, it was people, all the people from everywhere would come. And they would have different ministers, those who were not afraid to come. And they would have people to come and speak, men and women. They were just so interesting. And the people, the church full and all around, it was an interesting thing. And the people, they would just think about the thing that they wanted and they would talk about what they could do if we would stick together and they did that. The church couldn&#039 ; t hold them. They would stand up. It was quite interesting. HUNTLEY: Were there ever Birmingham Police officers in the meeting? JEFFRIES: Every night. Every night. HUNTLEY: Why were they there? JEFFRIES: Think they going to frighten somebody away. And after they saw we weren&#039 ; t thinking about them, they gradually dropped off. But they would be standing right there in the door, standing in the door and we&#039 ; d just stand. We&#039 ; d just stand there until they finally moved and we would go on in. Nobody raised any disturbance or say anything. HUNTLEY: Did you ever go to jail? JEFFRIES: No. I didn&#039 ; t. I missed jail twice. HUNTLEY: How do you mean, you missed jail twice? JEFFRIES: They arrested five people and another lady and myself. When the man had looked around we had walked in the church and they didn&#039 ; t know what happened to us so they had to take them ahead and go on. We laughed about it. And another time, just like when you would walk up to the church and they would just touching them, just touching them, taking them on off, then I just went in the side door, and that&#039 ; s how I missed it. I never did get to jail, but I got close. I wasn&#039 ; t anxious about going to jail. HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate? JEFFRIES: Yes. They participated. I had a younger brother. He was a bad man. He wasn&#039 ; t afraid of anybody. When White people see that you are not afraid then they get afraid. We would walk up and just stand there. And finally they would move to the side. I reckon they say, I&#039 ; m tired of these niggers standing up here. They moved to the side and we&#039 ; d walk in. So finally they quit that foolishness, you know. People sure can be crazy. HUNTLEY: Did your husband participate? JEFFRIES: Well, he was working. No. He didn&#039 ; t participate too much. He pushed us and any help he could give to us. He worked at the steel plant and they was really checking on all the fellows at ACIPICO and steel plants like that. Of course, we had to eat. HUNTLEY: Well, if you were teaching, there were teachers who refused to participate because they were afraid? Why were you not afraid? JEFFRIES: I never was afraid because I was eating before I started teaching. Oh, I&#039 ; m thinking about I&#039 ; d hope they fired me and I wouldn&#039 ; t have worried about it. But was just so happy. I had never been a scary person or nothing, not too much. And my husband would say, &quot ; You just think you can whip everybody.&quot ; I said, &quot ; No. I don&#039 ; t worry about whipping everybody, but ain&#039 ; t anybody going to whip me.&quot ; HUNTLEY: So did he ever attend any of the mass meetings? JEFFRIES: Oh yes. He attended quite a few of the mass meetings, but he didn&#039 ; t take as much part as I did because I travelled with a lot of them. Places they went, I liked travelling anyway. HUNTLEY: Where did you travel? JEFFRIES: Different places around. Not too far away. But we would go and have meetings.Those people would come to us and we would go over to East Thomas and all the neighboring churches and then sometimes we would get a bus and go on out somewhere. We really worked together better than I think we ever did before or since. But it was the most interesting thing. But I never was afraid. I never thought anybody was going to do anything to me. And I reckon I was crazy. HUNTLEY: Were your neighbors involved? JEFFRIES: Quite a few. And some, just like everything else, they would sit on the porch and talk about what &quot ; they going to keep on running up there until they kill some of them up there.&quot ; HUNTLEY: In 1963 when the demonstrations took place here in Birmingham, were you actively involved? JEFFRIES: Oh, yes. I marched. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the marches? JEFFRIES: Well, we would meet, we would meet at various churches and things like that had just become a part of it, you know. And all you wanted to know was where you wanted to meet and people was making excuses about where they can&#039 ; t go and all of that. But they got those cars, trucks and buses and everything and we would be there. I mean when the members of the church got there, we were there. It was interesting and it would kind of grow on you. It was in your blood and don&#039 ; t be afraid of anything. I think about it now. My mother said, &quot ; The Lord take care of babies and fools.&quot ; You know, they were kind of chicken. HUNTLEY: How would you assess the Birmingham Movement? Do you think it was successful? JEFFRIES: I think it was quite successful. Because see somebody had to start somewhere and we talked about it and the folks talked about it and I think the first meeting that they had at the church, it wasn&#039 ; t, they got groups together before they had a meeting and anybody out there belong to any other church, they met. We had the first meeting at our church and all the men, well the men was for it first, you know and setting it up but we were always around on hand and the ministers, it just spread to the ministers but there was some who never showed. The man said that&#039 ; s where they were getting their bread, so they could leave it, but quite a few participated and as time went on, they came in. HUNTLEY: What is the most vivid memory that you have of the Movement activity? JEFFRIES: Well, I got so close to going to jail. Of course, it didn&#039 ; t matter with me. I kind of wanted to go because some of my friends were going, but one night we were just about to leave. We thought all the White folks, all the Ku Klux was gone, you know. HUNTLEY: You were just about to leave the church? JEFFRIES: Leave the church, yes. HUNTLEY: After a meeting? JEFFRIES: Yes. After a meeting. And when we came to the door, they was standing there. &quot ; Well, there&#039 ; s some niggers there, they ain&#039 ; t never left. We&#039 ; re just carry them on to jail.&quot ; So I had a jacket over my arm, I just reached around and got my jacket, I was going to jail. But my brother and two of my brothers were there. They definitely didn&#039 ; t want me to go to jail, you know. And he just kind of pushed me around to this little closet and they went on out there. They went on to jail, but they definitely didn&#039 ; t want me to go to jail. I never did go. HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to add that we haven&#039 ; t dealt with that relates to the Movement? JEFFRIES: Well, if you had told me I could have jotted some things down. HUNTLEY: You said you marched. Did you ever sit-in? JEFFRIES: No. They went places and sat-in and I didn&#039 ; t ever go over there. HUNTLEY: Did you ever help coordinate those kinds of things? JEFFRIES: Oh, yes. At my church, because those people were so afraid when they first started. And I was so brave and they would look at me. But I didn&#039 ; t have any fear because it was something that had to be done and somebody had to do it. HUNTLEY: So you thought that this was just part of your duty? JEFFRIES: I really felt that way and I still feel that way. If there&#039 ; s anything I can do to the betterment of the country or home life, I said, &quot ; Well, after all you supposed to be here to do something.&quot ; And as my mother say, &quot ; you should put forth to do something.&quot ; But anywhere I can help or encourage people to do something like that. Putting all your money and all your fine houses and everything. I said, &quot ; And you wouldn&#039 ; t even need to spend a dime to help somebody, not anything.&quot ; Oh, they lived such and such a place, they don&#039 ; t come up to my standards and this kind of junk. You know we will spite. As my brother say, &quot ; Just let them get a new pair of shoes.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Ms. Jeffries, I want to thank you for coming out and spending this time with us today because you have been very helpful. JEFFRIES: Well, if you had told me I could have jotted a lot of things down. HUNTLEY: Well, we may do it again sometime and that would be helpful. JEFFRIES: Yes. HUNTLEY: All right. And if you have any items that you would like to donate to the Civil Rights Institute we would be very thankful for that. JEFFRIES: Well, I&#039 ; ll do that, I sure will. And I appreciate you inviting me. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=DJefferies1995.xml DJefferies1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daisy Jeffries Description An account of the resource Daisy Jeffries discusses avoiding jail despite being very active in the Movement, including coordinating sit-in demonstrations. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950512J Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham NAACP Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-05-12 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/3a5cb9e83d03d013c949205d2646bf3d.jpg 7d5f0ed89f94f0dad1579c1f32140639 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Danella Jones Bryant OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=DBryant1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 June 23, 1995 Danella Bryant 19950623B 0:33:50 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Young, Andrew, 1932- Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) Danella Jones Bryant Horace Huntley Video 1:|6(12)|29(5)|49(15)|65(4)|81(7)|100(4)|111(1)|126(2)|144(6)|155(5)|165(6)|182(2)|204(6)|223(10)|241(5)|262(10)|286(2)|300(8)|322(5)|332(15)|352(2)|367(9)|380(2)|393(6)|408(5)|418(8)|429(11)|443(3)|455(14)|469(8)|483(6)|500(6)|516(5) 0 https://youtu.be/aQDRKvjZBTk YouTube video English 42 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Ms. Danella Jones Bryant for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Danella Bryant is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 58 Family Background What I want to do initially is to just start talking about your background. Bryant tells how her parents were blue-collar workers with little education. Andalusia (Ala.) ; University of Alabama in Birmingham. Medical Center Birmingham (Ala.) ; Blue collar workers 147 Educational Journey Tell me a bit about your education. Bryant went to high school in Birmingham and to college in California. Los Angeles City College ; Parker High School ; University of California (System) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Los Angeles (Calif.) 266 Community Background What community did you live in? Bryant recalls how she grew up in Smithfield where people looked out for each other. Blue collar workers ; Smithfeld Birmingham (Ala.) 308 Experiencing Racism Growing up in Birmingham were there ever any incidents that really made you know that you did not have all of the rights and privileges that other citizens had? Bryant recalls how white people would call her names and how she could not go to the Alabama Theater. Alabama--Social life and customs ; Racism--United States Birmingham (Ala.) 458 Involvement with the Movement How then did you get involved in the Movement? Bryant describes how she got involved in the movement and how they preached non-violence at the mass meetings. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Mass meetings ; Non-violent Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 567 Relationship with the Police Can you tell me what was the relationship between your community and the police department? Bryant describes how a police officer held a gun to her head and told her that he would kill her. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Police brutality--United States Birmingham (Ala.) ; Racism 724 Getting Other Students to Join the Movement During the Movement you participated in demonstrations? Bryant recalls how she would go around to other schools and try to recruit kids for the movement. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Civil rights movement African American student movements ; Birmingham (Ala.) 845 Being Arrested Multiple Times for Marching Did you ever go to jail? Bryant describes how she was arrested three times for marching in Birmingham and St. Augustine. Arrest (Police methods) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Juvenile detention Birmingham (Ala.) ; St. Augustine (Fla.) 1042 Meeting Important Leaders of the Movement You, of course, were closely associated then with some of the people that would be household names. Bryant tells how she attended meetings with several of the prominent leaders of the movement. Bevel, James L. (James Luther), 1936-2008 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Young, Andrew, 1932- Birmingham (Ala.) 1105 Attending the March on Washington Bryant recalls how incredible the March on Washington was and how thousands of people were there in support of their cause. March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) Washington, D.C. 1212 Family and Friends Involvement in the Movement What were your parents saying as a result of your activity? Bryant recalls how her family was supportive and how her friends were afraid to join the movement. Civil rights movement ; Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) 1336 Moving to Los Angeles How do you think your involvement impacted upon you as a person? Bryant states that her family was concerned for her safety so they wanted her to move to Los Angeles. America--Race relations ; Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) ; Los Angeles (Calif.) 1468 Memories of the 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing You were in Birmingham when the 16th Street Church was bombed? Bryant tells how the church bombing changed her family and led her to move to Los Angeles. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Racism Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1599 Freedom, Commitment, and Race Relations Were there ever instances where, as a young student, that you were simply frightened of what you were involved in? Bryant describes how she committed herself to the cause, gained freedom and a greater understanding of race relations in the United States. Freedom ; Police brutality--United States ; United States--Race relations Birmingham (Ala.) ; Los Angeles (Calif.) 1766 Educating the Youth You are now a member of the advisory committee for the Civl Rights Institute? Bryant states how the Institute strives to educate future generations about the movement, so their history does not get lost. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1855 Appearance in Life Magazine You have enlightened us today with all the activities that you were involved in as a young person and that's very commendable. Bryant recalls how Reverend Bevel showed her a picture of herself in Life Magazine during one of the marches. Bevel, James L. (James Luther), 1936-2008 ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Life Magazine Birmingham (Ala.) 1932 Keeping in Touch with the Movement Have you had any contact with any of the notable individuals you knew then? Bryant states that if she hadn't moved to Los Angeles, she would have remained actively involved in the movement. Cotton, Dorothy F., 1930- ; Young, Andrew, 1932- Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1992 Conclusion of Interview Thank you very much. You've been quite a help for us and we will be in touch with you and allow you to view this as well. Interview is concluded. Oral History Danella Bryant discusses being arrested multiple times while demonstrating as a child. She attended the March on Washington and eventually moved to Los Angeles after the bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Danella Jones Bryant for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 23, 1995. Ms. Bryant. Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit with us today. What I want to do initially is to just start talking about your background. Tell me a bit about your parents. Where were they from? Were they from Jefferson County? BRYANT: My mom was born in Andalusia, Alabama. My dad was born, I think in Vicksburg, Mississippi and they moved to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Birmingham? BRYANT: Oh, yes. I was born in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: What about your parents&#039 ; education and occupation? BRYANT: My mom only had an eighth-grade education. My mom worked in domestics. She worked as a maid, if you will, a housekeeper at one of the local hospitals in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Which hospital? BRYANT: It was South Highland. HUNTLEY: And your father. HUNTLEY: My father was self-employed. He owned his own business. He made and repaired hats, men&#039 ; s hats. He had always been in that line of business. HUNTLEY: What was his business called? BRYANT: Dan, The Hatter. HUNTLEY: A very well-known person in Birmingham. Did you have brothers and sisters? BRYANT: Oh yes. I have a younger brother and I have a half-sister. HUNTLEY: So there were three of you? BRYANT: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a bit about your education. BRYANT: I went to Lincoln Elementary School and Parker High School. I graduated in &#039 ; 64. After graduating I moved to Los Angeles. I attended Los Angeles City College as well as the University of California-Los Angeles, UCLA as it&#039 ; s better known, but I didn&#039 ; t graduate. I came back to Birmingham and I have a degree as a word processing specialist from the Southern Institute here in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: So you have been in the Birmingham school system and you finished at Parker. You&#039 ; re one of the Thundering Herd I assume? BRYANT: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me just a bit about Parker as a student. BRYANT: Well, other than it was a great, great high school. I had some great teachers. I remember one in particular ; her name was M. C. Handy. I was having a little problem with math. I didn&#039 ; t think I was a very good math student and she changed my mind about that. She was my Algebra I teacher. And I came out of it with a B+ so I felt pretty good about that. HUNTLEY: What about relationships with other students? BRYANT: Oh, I intermingled with all the kids. I was pretty popular. I was a cheerleader and president of the French Club. I couldn&#039 ; t speak very much French though. I traveled with the football team when we played games and things, so I was pretty active. I was very open, very outgoing person. I always have been. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in? BRYANT: I lived in the Smithfield area. I was raised there. HUNTLEY: Can you describe what the community was like at that time? BRYANT: Well, it was a close-knit community. Everyone kind of looked out for one another. If you saw somebody&#039 ; s child doing something he shouldn&#039 ; t have been, he got in trouble and he got a spanking for it. Not like these days. We were kind of close knit. Everyone was close knit and cared about one another. And we had similar goals. It was a good community. HUNTLEY: Growing up in Birmingham were there ever any incidents that really made you know that made know that you did not have all of the rights and privileges that other citizens had? BRYANT: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: Can you elaborate on one or two of those? BRYANT: Well, I remember one incident that sticks out in my mind very well. I was coming home from school one day with some of my girlfriends and we were walking. And this pick- up truck passed by. I believe I was in my junior year of High School, and it was three White guys in the pick-up truck and they yelled out at us. HUNTLEY: What did they yell? BRYANT: Hey you niggers. You niggers go home. I was pretty upset and I was really hurt about it. And so when I got home I talked to my parents about it and they basically just told me that they were just ignorant and don&#039 ; t worry about it. They don&#039 ; t really realize what they are doing. But it kind of stuck in my mind. It made me realize things were not right in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Were there any other incidents that you may remember? Do you remember riding the bus, do you remember going downtown to any of the theaters? BRYANT: Oh, yes. I remember every time I got on the bus, if it was crowded in the back and there were seats in the front, I had to stand up. And I never liked that. I felt that was unfair. I remember not understanding why I couldn&#039 ; t go to the Alabama Theater. I had to go to the Lyric and sit upstairs where there were rats and roaches and everything. I remembered that and I didn&#039 ; t like it. HUNTLEY: Well, it appears that you had at an early age, decided there were things that you did not like. By the time the Movement came around, it appeared that you probably had already made some decisions about what you wanted out of life? BRYANT: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: How then did you get involved in the Movement? What were the circumstances of your getting involved in the Movement? BRYANT: Well, I think how I first got involved in the Movement was my uncle, God rest his soul, Jimmy Walker. He was very active in churches and he was a Christian man. He first told me about the meetings, the mass meetings that were in town and what was going on. And of course, I&#039 ; ve always been curious, and I decided to go and I did. And I never will forget. I was just spell bound. I felt like this was the answer to my prayers. I couldn&#039 ; t believe it. Oh, my goodness. I tried to be there every night. HUNTLEY: Now you were what, 14 or 15 years old at the time? BRYANT: I was sixteen years old. HUNTLEY: But you felt that this was what you had been waiting for? BRYANT: It was the answer to my prayers. HUNTLEY: So when you started going to the mass meetings, can you describe what a typical mass meeting was like? BRYANT: The mass meetings were where people got together and they talked about getting their rights. Being able to do the things that they couldn&#039 ; t do in a non-violent way. And that really impressed me because I wasn&#039 ; t into violence. God was involved. We always had prayer. We always held hands and it was like we were a family with one common goal. And so that&#039 ; s basically what it was. We shall overcome is a song I won&#039 ; t ever forget. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me what was the relationship between your community and the police department? Did you ever have any incidents of being accosted by the police? BRYANT: Oh, yes. I remember it was during the time that Rev. Shuttlesworth&#039 ; s house was bombed. An acquaintance of mine and I were out riding. It was late in the evening and the police came out of nowhere and stopped us. He came over to the driver&#039 ; s side and asked my friend for his driver&#039 ; s license and he showed it to him. And he was saying something nasty to him and told him to get out of the car and that he was going to arrest him. By this time I had gotten out of the car and I asked him, &quot ; Sir, why are you arresting him? What have we done? We didn&#039 ; t run a red light. We didn&#039 ; t do anything?&quot ; And so, he pushed me to the ground. I had a hat on and I think I had some jeans and a shirt or a sweater or something on and he put the gun to my head and he said, &quot ; I could blow your brains out and no one would even care.&quot ; And as soon as he said that he snatched my hat off and my hair fell down to my shoulders. And he looks to his partner and he says, &quot ; Oh, this is a nigger bitch.&quot ; So then he told me to get up and run and don&#039 ; t look back. He said, &quot ; I mean you better not look back.&quot ; And that&#039 ; s what I did. I was scared. HUNTLEY: Where did you run to? BRYANT: I ran to one of the apartments. The first apartment I saw, I knocked on the door. It was an older lady, she was very sweet. She opened the door and I explained to her what happened, and she let me in, hugged me. Then I called my mother and I told my mom what happened. She was real upset. So, the lady and my mother decided that I should spend the night there and my dad picked me up the next morning. HUNTLEY: Did you know the lady? BRYANT: I didn&#039 ; t know her personally, but she knew our family. And at that time things were different. You could do that. HUNTLEY: During the Movement you participated in demonstrations? BRYANT: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: You were also a student leader at Parker? BRYANT: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you assisted attracting other students to the Movement? BRYANT: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me something about that? BRYANT: Well, I would go to my school, I was a senior and I would try and recruit kids, especially in my classroom or in the club that I was involved in, the cheerleaders. Just any of the kids and try to explain to them what was going on and that they needed to join us. I did it on several occasions. And I did recruit some. It wasn&#039 ; t a great deal. But I did because they were kind of scared. HUNTLEY: During May of &#039 ; 63 when organizers were going to various schools to entice students to leave school and go and get involved in the Movement from 16th Street, were you involved in that? BRYANT: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: How did that operate? Did you leave school during that time yourself? BRYANT: Oh, yes. On many occasions. My parents were afraid I wasn&#039 ; t going to graduate because I did that, but I was a good student and I did graduate. HUNTLEY: But you were actively involved in attracting others? BRYANT: I was very actively involved. HUNTLEY: In fact, you were a junior member of the organization I assume? BRYANT: Oh, yes a junior staff member. Well, we would have strategy meetings and this would consist of how we would plan, you know when we were going to march, where we were going to march, how many of us, who was going to be our partners and this type of thing. That&#039 ; s basically what that was. HUNTLEY: Did you ever go to jail? BRYANT: Yes. HUNTLEY: Do you remember the first time you went to jail? BRYANT: The first time I went to jail, if I am not mistaken, I think if you&#039 ; re over 16 you go to jail. But at that time, I was over 16 but I said I was under 16 because I didn&#039 ; t want to go to jail. I went to juvenile. That&#039 ; s when I made up my mind that I would never do anything wrong. I remember this big old matronly lady that was screaming and hollering at us and telling us that if we don&#039 ; t get in the bed and shut up what she was going to do to us. It wasn&#039 ; t a very nice experience, but I didn&#039 ; t mind it at the time. I really didn&#039 ; t because it was for a good cause. HUNTLEY: Why were you arrested? BRYANT: Just for marching. HUNTLEY: So you were marching and you were arrested along with several other people? BRYANT: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: Were you taken to juvenile in a paddy wagon or police car? BRYANT: Paddy wagon, just like regular people that get arrested. A bunch of us. HUNTLEY: What else do you remember about being in juvenile detention? BRYANT: It was overcrowded. The food was horrible and I knew that I never wanted to go there if I didn&#039 ; t have to. I knew I never wanted to do anything wrong. I knew they were going to get me out if I wanted to. But I always stayed. Some of the kids didn&#039 ; t want to stay very long, but I always stayed until they got me out. HUNTLEY: How long did you stay? BRYANT: Well, the first time I think about a week. And one time I stayed two weeks. Now the last time I went I think I stayed about a week. HUNTLEY: What were the other circumstances of your arrest? You said you were arrested two or three times? BRYANT: Well, it was basically the same. It was always for marching and they decided that they wanted to take some Blacks to jail, or niggers as they called us. HUNTLEY: Did you always go to the juvenile detention? BRYANT: Yes. HUNTLEY: You were never housed in the jail? BRYANT: No. HUNTLEY: You were also arrested in St. Petersburg, Florida? BRYANT: St. Augustine. HUNTLEY: I&#039 ; m sorry, St. Augustine. Why? What were you doing in St. Augustine? BRYANT: We were marching down there trying to recruit and get kids involved in our movement and we got arrested down there. HUNTLEY: What was that experience like? BRYANT: The same. It was a jail. I didn&#039 ; t like it but it was for a good cause and I was willing to do whatever it took for us to succeed in what we were trying to do. HUNTLEY: You, of course, were closely associated then with some of the people that would be household names. Can you tell us about any of those individuals? BRYANT: Well, James Bevels was basically the person that did the recruiting of all the younger kids. We had our own mass meeting and the adults had their own mass meeting. Of course, we had them together also, so did Andrew Young. He worked along with James Bevels. I remember him distinctly because he was the one that really recruited me. HUNTLEY: Bevels did? BRYANT: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you have an opportunity to meet and talk with Dr. King? BRYANT: No. I didn&#039 ; t actually talk with him personally. I had been in the same meetings with him, I saw him, but no, I didn&#039 ; t actually speak with him one-on-one, no. HUNTLEY: You also attended the March on Washington. BRYANT: Oh, yes I did. I&#039 ; m very proud of that. HUNTLEY: You were very active as a young person at that time. Tell me about that experience? BRYANT: Oh, that was an experience. Well, we had decided in a meeting that we were going to take it to the capital and it had been planned for months and months. And the bus trip was only $8, can you believe it? So my parents got the money up and we went. A whole bunch of us and it was something I will never forget. I have never seen that many people in one place in my entire life for one cause. Everybody was there for the same thing. It was a beautiful experience. I enjoyed it. Even now when I see it being televised sometimes on TV it brings back memories. I remember it distinctly. HUNTLEY: In talking to a number of other young people, some people who attended Ullman or who attended Parker, one individual suggested that she remembered the day of one of the demonstrations, a massive demonstration where she initially went towards school but she didn&#039 ; t quite get to school because there were others who were recruiting ; and told them to come on to the church. Did you have that kind of experience or were you one of those that were in school and left school or did you make any detours? BRYANT: Both. HUNTLEY: What were your parents saying as a result of your activity? BRYANT: Well, my mother was a little worried about me not graduating. But then she knew I had made good grades and everything and she knew I was really involved and she really didn&#039 ; t make a big fuss about it because it was something I was committed to do. And it was a good thing. HUNTLEY: Well, were there others that were close to you, friends of yours that were as actively involved as you were? BRYANT: There were three young ladies that I particularly hung out with that I tried and tried and tried to recruit them. But they would not get involved. And unfortunately, by me being so young and naive, at the time I can say now that they were afraid, but at that time I was pretty upset with them. Because they would not get involved at all. HUNTLEY: Were others in your family, your parents or your siblings were they involved? BRYANT: My brother went to jail. He wasn&#039 ; t as active as I was, but he did go to jail because I told him he needed to march and he needed to take a stand. And my mother and my great aunts and uncles they all went to the mass meetings. HUNTLEY: So in your family, you didn&#039 ; t have people who were discouraging you? BRYANT: Oh, no. I was really encouraged by my family. HUNTLEY: What about teachers at your school? BRYANT: Well, they kind of secretly commended me. They couldn&#039 ; t do it openly because I guess they were afraid for their jobs and everything. But I had several teachers that would say, &quot ; Danella, you&#039 ; re doing a good thing and we&#039 ; re really proud of you.&quot ; HUNTLEY: So you were encouraged all throughout then to get involved? BRYANT: Yes. HUNTLEY: How do you think your involvement impacted upon you as a person? BRYANT: Well, I think personally it taught me about commitment and it made me understand about race relations a lot. It helped me a lot in a lot of ways. When I first moved to LA I was pretty bitter about certain things. But, eventually, I calmed down and it helped me a lot. It really helped me a lot. HUNTLEY: Why were you bitter? BRYANT: Racism is everywhere. But to me L.A. was a little better than Birmingham. And when I was in school I met some White girls and they wanted to be my friends. I didn&#039 ; t particularly want to be their friends but they seemed genuinely hurt by it. And, then, I started telling them what was going on in Birmingham and they said something to me like, &quot ; Danella, I don&#039 ; t have anything to do with that. I never lived in the south.&quot ; So I sort of changed from that. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances of your moving to Los Angeles? BRYANT: Well, after my last time in jail, which was in St. Augustine, my aunt flew in from Los Angeles to visit the family. And I had no idea that the family really wanted me to leave, to get away. They were beginning to get worried especially after the bombing of the church. So, I got out of jail and my aunt took me to Los Angeles which was in July of &#039 ; 64. HUNTLEY: You were in Birmingham when the 16th Street Church was bombed? BRYANT: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about that? BRYANT: I remember that we had had a lot of our meetings there. I didn&#039 ; t belong to that church. I wasn&#039 ; t a member. But I used to go there a lot. I had a lot of friends there and I liked the church. They were having something special if I can remember, this particular Sunday and I told my mother that I wanted to go to 16th Street Baptist Church to Sunday School. So she said, well fine, but I forgot to set my clock and I overslept. If I can recall, my uncle ran in the living room and told my mom, I heard him say, &quot ; They just bombed 16th Street Baptist Church and some people were killed.&quot ; I don&#039 ; t really remember what happened. I remember I was crying and screaming and carrying on because I knew some children were down there. Some people were dead. I would have been there too. HUNTLEY: If you had not overslept you would have been at 16th Street that morning? BRYANT: Yes. So I think after that happened, my family kind of changed. They really wanted me to leave. So that was a sad day in everybody&#039 ; s life. It was really, really sad. Even when I first came back from L.A. and I went to 16th Street Baptist Church to look at it, it just brought all of the memories back. HUNTLEY: So your family sent you to Los Angeles really for your protection? BRYANT: Yes. As far as they were concerned. HUNTLEY: Were there ever instances where, as a young student, that you were simply frightened of what you were involved in? The demonstrations or any of the other occurrences that happened. Were you ever just really afraid for your safety? BRYANT: The only time I was afraid was when that man put that gun to my head. Other than that I can&#039 ; t say that I was. I wasn&#039 ; t afraid. All I could see was I wanted my freedom. I wanted the freedom for my people. HUNTLEY: If you could turn the clock back, knowing what you know now and you could go back through the Movement and you had the ability to change any of the things that you went through, what would you change? BRYANT: If I had the ability to change, first of all, I would tell everybody not to go to church that day the church was bombed. That&#039 ; s the main thing. HUNTLEY: What about your activity? Would you change any of the things that you were actively involved in? BRYANT: Oh, no. I would do everything exactly the same. I think it was just something that I was supposed to do. It was a very positive time in my life and I&#039 ; m proud of that. HUNTLEY: How did that period then shape the rest of your life? Since you left Birmingham right out of high school and you spent much of your adult life in Los Angeles, how did the experiences here in Birmingham help to shape you? BRYANT: Well, it helped to shape me in a lot of ways. It made me a better person by, first of all, not doing anything wrong, but I never wanted to go to jail. L.A. is a fast town. I stayed pretty much an Alabama girl in L.A. It helped me with race relations. I can intermingle with anyone with no problem. And it made me understand about commitment and focusing on positive things and unity and the Black community and how important that is to everyone. HUNTLEY: You are now a member of the advisory committee for the Civil Rights Institute? BRYANT: Yes, I am. HUNTLEY: What things have not been done at the Institute that you would like to see happen with that institution? BRYANT: Well, one of the things I would like to -- we are in the process, hopefully of having a forum with young people from various schools all over the State of Alabama and to bring to them what the young people in our era went through. And we are just trying to figure out exactly how we want to do that so that they would really listen. Because this is a different day and age and the kids are a lot different than they were 30 years ago. But, I believe if they really understood exactly what our focus and our motives were it can kind of blend in with what&#039 ; s going on today and they would be better able to deal with their lives. HUNTLEY: Do you see that as being an ongoing activity or a one-time sort of occurrence? BRYANT: Oh, no. Ongoing. Because young people are our future. So we have got to invest in young people. HUNTLEY: You have enlightened us today with all the activities that you were involved in as a young person and that&#039 ; s very commendable. I do remember though that you appeared in Life magazine. BRYANT: Oh, yes. I sure did. HUNTLEY: What was the occasion? BRYANT: Well, we had been marching. It was right across from the city jail. And we had stopped for prayer. Oh, they were spraying the hoses as usual. They had the dogs. Of course, I had become accustomed to them by now. And I just fell to my knees and started praying to God because no other help I know. I had no idea I was being photographed until James Bevel, Rev. Bevel showed me the picture in Life magazine. HUNTLEY: How did he show it to you? Were you at a meeting? BRYANT: No. He came to my parents home and he had the magazine in his hand he just said casually, &quot ; I have something to show you Danella.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Okay.&quot ; And I said, &quot ; Oh, that&#039 ; s me.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Yes.&quot ; And that&#039 ; s how it came about. HUNTLEY: Have you had any contact with any of the notable individuals you knew then? Have you had any contact with them in recent years? BRYANT: Well, we had a program last year, I believe, if I&#039 ; m not mistaken and I talked with Andrew Young. Whenever he&#039 ; s in town I usually get a chance to speak to him and Dorothy Cotton. I know them very well. I always tell my parents if you had not made me go to L.A. I would have gone with Dorothy and Andy and still been involved actively. HUNTLEY: So do you regret then having gone to L.A.? BRYANT: A lot of times I do. I really do. But it was just my destiny. HUNTLEY: Well, is there anything else that you would like to add that we may not have touched upon today that you would like to share with the people that would read and view this? BRYANT: No. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. You&#039 ; ve been quite a help for us and we will be in touch with you and allow you to view this as well. BRYANT: Okay. HUNTLEY: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=DBryant1995.xml DBryant1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Danella Bryant Description An account of the resource Danella Bryant discusses being arrested multiple times while demonstrating as a child. She attended the March on Washington and eventually moved to Los Angeles after the bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950623B Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Young, Andrew, 1932- Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-06-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/2f5d112e8be5b311c130d74362d9844c.jpg d126aa187a302241cb4949e0424bb3b1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David Vann OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=DVann1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Black, Hugo LaFayette, 1886-1971 Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 February 2, 1995 David Vann Interviewed on February 2, 1995 19950202V 1:33:50 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Emily Reynolds Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Black, Hugo LaFayette, 1886-1971 Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka David Vann Horace Huntley Video 1:|14(3)|24(5)|35(11)|48(8)|62(13)|75(1)|83(7)|101(12)|114(13)|130(4)|144(8)|160(14)|173(2)|187(1)|200(13)|215(2)|226(4)|240(1)|249(12)|260(7)|271(12)|283(2)|300(8)|310(5)|323(5)|333(10)|345(1)|356(2)|370(2)|380(10)|391(2)|404(2)|416(7)|432(5)|441(13)|450(11)|466(12)|478(6)|491(8)|500(7)|513(9)|525(17)|538(15)|554(9)|568(6)|580(12)|594(1)|610(7)|621(5)|632(9)|644(12)|655(10)|666(4)|679(14)|690(8)|703(6)|721(3)|737(4)|747(6)|765(6)|777(9)|795(4)|813(4)|823(12)|840(16)|863(9)|878(2)|892(12)|905(1)|918(6)|931(1)|944(4)|958(5)|972(7)|984(3)|994(11)|1006(10)|1019(4)|1031(7)|1048(9)|1060(5)|1077(11)|1090(10)|1104(14)|1116(12)|1127(7)|1141(12)|1153(5)|1161(5)|1171(2)|1184(8)|1196(7) 0 https://youtu.be/vSZv3JUHbiM YouTube video English 0 Interview Introduction This is an interview with former Mayor of Birmingham, David Vann, with the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College, February 2, 1995 at 2:30 p.m. Introduction to interview with Mayor David Vann 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ The homepage of the BCRI 93 Family History &amp ; Childhood We want to just start today by getting a little background like, who are you? Vann discusses his family's history in the U.S. and Alabama, as well as his childhood and adolescence. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham-Southern College ; Education--Alabama Families--United States 566 Military Service (U.S. Army) So you worked your way through college. Vann discusses joining and serving in the U.S. Army in 1946. African American soldiers ; Segregation--United States ; United States--History, Military--20th century United States. Army 755 Washington DC &amp ; Supreme Court Experience Well after you... When you left the military the second time, what did you do? Vann discusses his experience as a law clerk for Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black. Black, Hugo LaFayette, 1886-1971 ; Knights of Pythias ; United States. National Labor Relations Board Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka ; United States. Supreme Court 1421 Engagement with Civil Rights Movement So you were actually back in Birmingham during the Montgomery Bus Boycott. Vann describes his return to Birmingham and engagement with the politics and organizations surrounding the Civil Rights Movement. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; African Americans--Crimes against ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Alabama Council on Human Relations ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 ; Police brutality--United States Civil rights movement 1890 Business Community Activism So Conner's action really stimulated the business community to start to figure out how can we get rid of this guy. Vann discusses the Birmingham business community's response to the Civil Rights Movement and the actions of Bull Conner. Birmingham Bar Association ; Parks--Alabama ; Segregation--United States Alabama--Politics and government--1951- ; Birmingham (Ala.) 2093 Police Department and KKK Let me ask you a question about when you talk about the Freedom Riders coming in and, of course, they were attacked. Vann discusses the Birmingham Police Department and the KKK. Civil rights movement ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Police brutality--United States ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 2333 Mayoral Election &amp ; Birmingham Politics Because you were active in those early years, in the fifties and sixties with the Council, when you were called on by the businessmen to sort of interact between them— Vann describes his work surrounding the Birmingham's mayoral election. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Mayor Alabama--Politics and government 3285 Public Response to Political Action How were you pictured then? Were you ever under attack as a result of the role that you played? Vann describes the Birmingham community's response to his political actions. African Americans--Civil rights ; Alabama--Politics and government ; Birmingham (Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.). Mayor 3482 Birmingham Elections Well, the election had to be a three-way election. Mayor/Council, Commission or City Manager with a run off between the top two. Vann discusses the Birmingham City and Mayoral Election. Alabama--Politics and government ; Alabama--Politics and government--1951- Birmingham (Ala.). Mayor 3635 SCLC Meeting &amp ; Movement Response At the same time that this was going on, something else is taking place of significance in Birmingham. Vann discusses the SCLC Annual Meeting that was taking place in Birmingham, as well as Movement responses and actions surrounding the election. Civil rights movement ; Segregation--United States ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Southern Christian Leadership Conference 3928 Civil Rights Politics, Police, &amp ; Leadership The Black political people had worked their fingers to the bone to change the city government, to elect a new government and I sat in on some of Boutwell's meetings with them and Boutwell had made some pretty surprising, to me, commitments to them. Vann discusses the impact of Birmingham's politics and police actions on the Civil Rights Movement. African American leaders ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; African Americans--Crimes against ; Alabama--Politics and government--1951- ; Birmingham (Ala.)--Maps ; Police brutality--United States Alabama--Politics and government 4169 Influence of the KKK How did the Klan get to be so important? Vann discusses the impact and presence of the Ku Klux Klan in Birmingham politics. African American prisoners ; Alabama--Politics and government Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) 4566 Reflections on Politics &amp ; Civil Rights Actions David, throughout the history of the Black people in this country, there seem to be instances where seemingly what was good for Black people, was not good for the country and vice versa. Vann reflects on Birmingham politics, including thoughts on Bull Conner, de-segregation, and the Civil Rights Movement. African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Alabama--Politics and government--1951- ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Segregation in education ; Segregation--United States ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Birmingham (Ala.) 5057 Reflections on Birmingham Community Obviously those were some very turbulent days and there was a period, a turning point, in the history of Birmingham. Vann reflects on the Birmingham community, including race relations, current-day challenges, and progress. Alabama--Politics and government--1951- ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; United States--Race relations--History--20th century Birmingham (Ala.) 5590 Conclusion I appreciate you taking this much time out of your schedule. We are going to have to do this again because obviously you have so much to say and we'll just have to do this again. Oral History David Vann discusses the political climate in Birmingham during the Movement including the role of businesses, the influence of the KKK and his time as United States Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black's law clerk. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with former Mayor of Birmingham, David Vann, with the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College, February 2, 1995 at 2:30 p.m. Mayor Vann, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule today to come out and talk with us. VANN: It&#039 ; s a pleasure. HUNTLEY: We want to just start today by getting a little background like, who are you? We know that you&#039 ; ve been around and you&#039 ; ve been involved in really changing the whole concept of what Birmingham is about. But, let me just ask you about your parents. Tell me about your mother and father. Where were they born? Were they Birminghamians? VANN: Well, my father was born on my great-grandfather&#039 ; s farm in the area we now call Huffman. Most of Huffman was a part of my great-grandfather&#039 ; s--Joel King&#039 ; s Rand&#039 ; s--farm. He was second generation in the county. His father brought him as a baby from North Carolina in 1822 and settled in the Trussville area. My mother was from Minneapolis, Minnesota. She had a brother that was a mining engineer and came to Birmingham with a cousin and they started several businesses. But his wife died somewhere around 1907 or 1908 and my mother and her mother came to Birmingham to look after the daughter and help her brother, Walker. My mother taught school in the Birmingham school system. She taught at Ullman. She taught at Fox Lake and, at the time, my father had graduated from the North Alabama Conference College, I believe in 1902. That was the second graduating class on that campus. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s Birmingham Southern now. VANN: Well, it is now, and my grandfather, Felix Vann, was in the real estate business in old Elyton and family tradition is that he and a group of Elyton businessmen raised six thousand dollars ($6,000) and went to the Methodist church and said they wanted to start a college at Owington, which was an unincorporated area north of Elyton. The Owens family apparently donated some land on top of the hill and the businessmen promised [that] if they would start the college, they would have the first building ready within a year. The argument was whether you should build a Christian college in a wicked, wicked place like Birmingham. At that time, there was a saloon on every corner downtown, about four (4) breweries. Jack Daniels whiskey was distilled on Second Avenue, I think. There were brothels up and down the railroad tracks and it was sort of like a wild-west town, still. But, they said, this is out in the country, in the fresh air, so they started and opened in 1897 as the North Alabama Conference College. They changed the name to Birmingham College about 1910 and, then, I think it was in 1918, the Methodist Church was faced with the problem of having two colleges and not many students, because the young men were all going to war. They merged the two colleges and became Birmingham Southern. Most of the history of Birmingham Southern they talk about the history of Southern University, which started, I think, in 1842. But I always thought they ought to put some emphasis on the North Alabama Conference College, because if it hadn&#039 ; t been for the efforts of those gentlemen that got that college started, there wouldn&#039 ; t be a Birmingham Southern College here. My father stayed after graduation. They had everything from first grade through the fourth year of college and so they had a grammar school and high school and my father stayed as principal and stayed about until 1909 and then he went down to the university and got his law degree. I believe it was two-year law program in those years. I have his diploma in my wallet. I believe it&#039 ; s dated 1911. HUNTLEY: Did he practice law here in Birmingham? VANN: No. He had a brother that had tuberculosis and the doctor said he ought to go live in the mountains. My grandfather had become a Methodist minister after the business had started the college and that meant his children could go to the new college free. It was the first generation of my family to have a college education. I always thought that Grandpa was pretty smart to help start a college so his children could get a college education. But, they moved. The Bishop, he had my grandfather Felix&#039 ; church at Fruithurst, Alabama in the mountains and Dad started his law practice in Heflin so he could be near his brother. Then, later, he moved to Roanoke, Alabama and I was born in Roanoke, which is the largest town in Randolph County. Wedowee is the county seat. Dad was elected Circuit Solicitor, which was the district attorney, in effect, to that era. Then, in 1931 he was appointed Circuit Judge by Governor Miller, and he died in 1934 about a week before election. He was running for re-election. I remember the house was full of campaign material. Two years later, my mother decided the best way to get a college education for her children was to move to a college town. So she picked up the family and sold the house and gave herself a little stake and moved to Auburn. My two older brothers went to Auburn. My sister had gotten married. She went to the University of Michigan. HUNTLEY: So there were four of you. VANN: There were four of us. HUNTLEY: Where were you? You were the youngest? VANN: I was the youngest, and my mother sold insurance and Reader&#039 ; s Digest and we had a boarding house--not a boarding house, but a rooming house. We would have four or five college students living with us. But, she finally got a job with a general accounting office that audited the federal farm programs through an office at Auburn. In the year I graduated from high school, her job got moved to Birmingham and she had to transfer the Federal Crop Insurance, so I was ready to be a boarding student. I thought I&#039 ; d go to Auburn always, you know. But mother said, &#039 ; I&#039 ; d go to talk to the people down at the University [of Alabama]. Your dad went there.&#039 ; I went down there and the Dean of Students fixed me up with one job for my room and another job for my food and some spending money. I waited on the football training table for the last Alabama Rose Bowl team. They made the pact with the Big Ten the next year and Alabama couldn&#039 ; t go to the Rose Bowl anymore. They had been there as much as any school in the country. HUNTLEY: So you worked your way through college. VANN: Well, at the end of June, 1946, right at the end of the war--. The war was over as far as the fighting was concerned, but it wasn&#039 ; t officially over and I thought I would be drafted in August when I became eighteen [years old], so a friend of mine and I decided to start in June. We volunteered and joined the Army. I had to have my mother&#039 ; s permission because I was only seventeen. I spent a year and a half in the Army in the occupation of Korea. The Japanese Army pulled out and the American Army went in and set up a military government until they could organize their own government. I was barely eighteen and they made me a criminal investigator because I had a year and half of college and I told them I was going to study law. I joined in June. By October I was in Korea and I had a jeep with a driver and two-way radio and a Korean interpreter. HUNTLEY: This was at the time-- VANN: They put me out investigating cases. HUNTLEY: This was at the time that the military was just then being integrated, right? VANN: No it wasn&#039 ; t. It was segregated and I spent a year there and I qualified for the GI Bill, which assured me that I would be able to go to law school. I didn&#039 ; t use my GI Bill until I got into law school. I came back to Alabama and I had a job and I was the technical director of the university theater. As a high school student, I had worked with the Auburn Players in learning how to build scenery. They could find plenty of people that wanted to act, but not many people that wanted to use hammers and nails and painting to make the sets, so I did that for two years. Then I went to law school. I got called to active duty in my senior year in law school, and I went back into the Army as a counter-intelligence officer. Now it was an integrated Army, and in that three to four year period I had Black agents that worked for me. I had gotten a commission. It was sort of interesting. They came from all over the country, but if they had personal problems, they always came to me. Somehow they trusted me, as a southerner, better than they trusted those Yankee boys. HUNTLEY: How different was the military as a segregated institution than as an integrated one? VANN: Well, [in] the segregated Army that I was in, all the Black soldiers were in trucking companies or laundry companies--supply. I really seldom saw a Black soldier. HUNTLEY: But you did have Black investigators? VANN: When I went back in 1951, I had Black counter-intelligence agents that worked under me, yes. HUNTLEY: When you left the military the second time, what did you do? VANN: Well, I was about to finish my master&#039 ; s degree in law at George Washington. While I was in the Army I went to night law school and they had a two-year program that you could go to three nights a week. I didn&#039 ; t know anybody, didn&#039 ; t have any tie-ups or commitments, so I went five nights a week and did the whole program in one year. But I got out of the Army in April and got a job as general counsel in the National Labor Relations Board doing appellate briefs, so I was writing briefs all day and going to law school all night. It was pretty miserable the last two months. Then, about the early part of June, Justice Black&#039 ; s law clerk called me up and said Justice Black would like to meet me. I hadn&#039 ; t worked for the government long enough to have any leave, but I said I could take my lunch hour anytime I wanted to. So, the law clerk came by. He had been a student at [the University of] Alabama with me and he took me out to Justice Black&#039 ; s home in Alexandria, and we chatted for a while. My father had been a supporter of him when he ran for the Senate and they had both been members of the Knights of Pythias, so he remembered my father. After we talked for a little while, he said, &#039 ; Well, I&#039 ; ve decided I want you to be my law clerk this year.&#039 ; At the time, I didn&#039 ; t even know I was an applicant for being his law clerk. So, just out of the blue and two weeks later I was at the Supreme Court of the United States. He asked me what I wanted to do. I said I was going back to Alabama to practice law. The school desegregation case was pending, Brown v. The Board. He said, &#039 ; Well, maybe you don&#039 ; t want to be my law clerk?&#039 ; I said, &#039 ; Oh, yes. I want to be your law clerk.&#039 ; I knew how the case was going to be decided. Anybody who had read Justice Black&#039 ; s opinion knew how that case was going to be decided as far as his vote. Then, in May...a sort of issue-- We had a deal, the law clerks and the Justices--it was really made by our predecessors--that the Justices would not discuss Brown v. The Board of Education with their law clerks. We didn&#039 ; t want to be blamed for a news leak and there were reporters all over that building every day just trying to get some inside information. The day the case came down... I never discussed it with them, and the day the case came down... I lived with him [Justice Black]. We had breakfast together every morning and dinner together every night. I drove his car, drove him to the Supreme Court building. They met at noon in those days, and just before noon I stuck my head in his office and said, &#039 ; Judge, anything you need before you go on the bench today?&#039 ; And he said, &#039 ; No, everything&#039 ; s fine.&#039 ; So I said, &#039 ; I&#039 ; ll think I go to lunch.&#039 ; He said, &#039 ; That&#039 ; s fine.&#039 ; No hint, no indication of any kind that that was going to be an important, historical date. But, I went into Justice Jackson&#039 ; s law clerk&#039 ; s office. His name was Barrett Prettyman, Jr., and I said, &#039 ; Barrett, let&#039 ; s go to lunch.&#039 ; Barrett said, &#039 ; I can&#039 ; t. My judge is here.&#039 ; Now, that was right startling news, because Jackson had had a heart attack and had been out for at least two or three weeks in the hospital. I just said to myself, &#039 ; There&#039 ; s only one reason they would bring him from the hospital. They&#039 ; re going to hand down Brown today.&#039 ; And I ran downstairs--not ran, but walked fast downstairs--where the law clerks had a dining room. They went through the public cafeteria line, but they had a place to eat that was private. I said, &#039 ; Let&#039 ; s go upstairs. They brought Jackson from the hospital. They&#039 ; re going to hand down Brown.&#039 ; Several of the clerks said things like, &#039 ; My judge would have given me a hint,&#039 ; or &#039 ; I&#039 ; ve got an appointment.&#039 ; &#039 ; I&#039 ; ve got this, I&#039 ; ve got that,&#039 ; and only six of us went upstairs to hear Warren read Brown v. Board of Education. It was sort of interesting, because I was looking up and down the bench as to who was going to dissent. I mean, this was such a controversial case, surely I would expect a dissent. I looked into the face of every one of those Justices: Justice Clark, Justice Brennan, Justice Reed, Justice Burton, William Douglas. I didn&#039 ; t expect him to dissent. I looked at Frankfurter. I thought he might, and then I looked at Justice Wright and I couldn&#039 ; t read anything in his face. About two-thirds of the way through, well before the end of the opinion, the decision is announced. Warren read. He said, &#039 ; We, therefore, hold that segregation by race in public schools violates the Fourteenth Amendment.&#039 ; But when he read it, he added the word-- He said, &#039 ; We, therefore, unanimously hold,&#039 ; and everybody in the room relaxed. I saw the Chief [Justice] in the hall that evening and I said to him, I said, &#039 ; Chief, when you read that opinion today, you didn&#039 ; t read it like you wrote it.&#039 ; His big Swedish face clouded up and he said, &#039 ; What do you mean?&#039 ; I said, &#039 ; You added the word &#039 ; unanimously&#039 ; .&#039 ; He said, &#039 ; I thought it was getting kind of tense in there about that time.&#039 ; I have told that story many times, but somebody had recently written a biography of Strom Thurmond. I think the chapter was about how Strom Thurmond now has Black people on his staff. I think it was somehow...but, anyway, that story about me meeting the Chief Justice is in Strom Thurmond&#039 ; s biography, which I thought was sort of interesting. HUNTLEY: Tell me, just for curiosity&#039 ; s sake, something about William O. Douglas. VANN: One of the most brilliant men you would ever meet. He only used one law clerk. He had a second law clerk, but he used that law clerk to help him write books. Douglas was in constant motion. He never wasted a minute. He had something productive to do every minute. He was so smart. He would write an opinion and, then-- While in Justice Black&#039 ; s office, we might go over that opinion through fifteen drafts. We would have a comma draft. We went through to see if we could figure a way to get rid of commas. Justice Douglas thought commas messed up the English language. Shorten sentences. Then we had one draft... Justice Black never wanted to write quotable quotes. He had a feeling that in the past, judges had written decisions and included colorful words that got established as rules of law when he wanted you to have to read his entire opinion in one piece and look at the whole thing and not be able to pick out a quotable quote. Of course, he did write some quotable quotes, but he really intentionally did not want to do that. But Douglas would just do, maybe, two drafts and out it goes. So, some of his writing, while he was a wonderful writer and an experienced writer, a professional writer, I think some of his opinions are a little unfinished compared to what we did. And, of course, his personal life was complicated. I think he married three times. But, he was an interesting... sort of taciturn. He came to dinner. When I lived with the Judge these other Judges would come to dinner, so I would get to spend the evenings with the other members of the court, in effect, which was a wonderful educational program, really unbelievable. But, Douglas was sort of taciturn. He didn&#039 ; t talk a lot. HUNTLEY: He wrote, I believe it&#039 ; s a small volume entitled Quotes of Rebellion, that many of the young and ambitious revolutionaries of the [19]60s and the &#039 ; 70s looked at very favorably, and I always wondered what kind of individual he was. VANN: Well, he was a very...you know, it&#039 ; s sort of iffy. You saw him... He was sort of a cold personality except with people who knew him real, real, well. I think... but at the same time, he was a very warm personality and was very conscious of the problems of people and the complications of life. You know, he wrote The Security Exchange Act. He was the head of the SEC, a very complex organizational structure. There was no limit to his mental capacities. But he also had a very, really warm.... You know, I understand that after he retired he tried to come back on the Court. He wanted--he got upset and wanted to have his say. But, he made mistakes like everybody else. I think some of their early cases following Brown, particularly the Richmond case, where instead of treating the county as a whole with respect to racial segregation, they held the proper thing was to have a separate city school system, separate county school system and in the Detroit case, where the judge made his desegregation order to cover all the suburban schools as well as the Detroit schools and the Supreme Court overruled that, then it set a pattern. It really, in effect, condemned all cities of the United States to be poor Blacks in the core and the wealthier living in the suburbs around. Birmingham is not inconsistent with that. HUNTLEY: How long were you in [Washington] D.C. and when did you return to Birmingham? VANN: Well, I went there [Washington] probably in early 1952 in the Army. I spent a year in the Army and a year with the Judge and I came to Birmingham in the fall of 1954, probably August 1954, with the law firm of White, Berry, Layman, Arant and Rose, now Bradley, Arant, Rose &amp ; White. HUNTLEY: So you were actually back in Birmingham during the Montgomery Bus Boycott. VANN: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: Did you have any dealings with any one that was associated with the bus boycott? VANN: Not at that time. Justice Black&#039 ; s sister-in-law, Mrs. Clifford Durr, I knew her. Later, I became... And I knew--but I didn&#039 ; t know anything about what he was doing--Robert Hughes, a young Methodist minister that Bishop Clare Purcell had appointed, had given a special appointment to the Alabama Council on Human Relations. He and I had been students at the university at the same time and had gone to work through the Wesley Foundation Program at the university. He went to seminary and I went to law school. He came to Birmingham shortly after the bus boycott and contacted me, and for several years I worked very closely with Bob. I couldn&#039 ; t do probate legal work and he knew that. But, I ended up on the Board of the Alabama Council [on Human Relations] and spent many weekends meeting at Alabama State [University]. Dr. McMillian of Tuskegee [University] was on our board and a delightful, wonderful man. Joe Lowery was on our board. He had a Methodist church at that time in Mobile. He had earlier been the pastor at St. Paul&#039 ; s in Birmingham, I think. He wasn&#039 ; t as active. Reverend Wilson is a minister at St. Paul&#039 ; s. I spent many hours with him. He later was the chaplain at Tuskeegee. HUNTLEY: What board was this? VANN: The Board of The Alabama Council on Human Relations. When the NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People] was outlawed, we became virtually the only bi-racial group in Alabama. Arthur Shores, John and Deenie Drew-- I knew them well. HUNTLEY: Was this one of the organizations that sort of filled the void left by the NAACP? VANN: No. I don&#039 ; t look at it in that manner. I think Reverend Shuttlesworth&#039 ; s Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights more nearly filled...and of course, the NAACP legal research continued to work with that group. We mainly were communicators. We met and we puzzled. I would say in 1959 and 1960, by that time, we had somewhat concluded that it was going to be very difficult to make social change in Alabama until you got the power structure to take that as a program. I worked with... HUNTLEY: The business or the political side? VANN: The business side. You know, the political side simply reflects things. Very little is created in the political side, I think. First, I worked with, I can&#039 ; t remember the minister&#039 ; s name right now. He&#039 ; s in Brooklyn now I think, but...Oliver, Reverend Oliver. There was a project that I worked with him on. Every time there was a police brutality incident that he heard about, he would go and take affidavits from the people that were involved, and I would reproduce those. We had a mailing list. We would send about fifty top business people in Birmingham copies of the affidavits every time we had one. The thinking was that people that lived in Mountain Brook and over-the-mountain would come to work and go home and they really didn&#039 ; t know much about segregation. They didn&#039 ; t know what was going on in this city and we wanted to make sure they knew what was going on. What effect that had, I do not know. I think the critical, the most critical thing that happened, that turned things around, was the Freedom Riders coming to Birmingham. The bus being burned in Anniston, the other bus coming on to Birmingham, Conner refusing to give police protection to the Freedom Riders. His minister, who is still living, I think was at City Hall personally pleading with Conner to provide police protection. Conner said, &#039 ; They&#039 ; re looking for trouble. They&#039 ; re going to find it.&#039 ; When I was Mayor, I checked the radio tapes and there was a good five minutes between the time the first report [of violence against the Freedom Riders] came in on the police radio and the time any policemen appeared at the scene. Probably, things had been going on for five or so minutes before that. But you had this group of thugs meet that bus and beat up the people that got off the bus and they also beat up people that were simply waiting for a bus. People who had nothing to do with the Freedom Riders got beaten up just because they happened to be at the bus station. For some reason, the national news people thought that the bus was coming to the Greyhound Station. Instead it came to the Trailways Station and Tom Langford, who is still a photographer at the Birmingham Post Herald, took the pictures of the beating. One of the smarter Klansmen grabbed at his camera and he knew about cameras. It&#039 ; s the lens that makes the picture, so he broke the lens and threw away the camera, and, of course, the pictures were all inside, undisturbed by his actions. The camera was recovered from a trash can, I think, in the alley, and the Post Herald was a Scripps-Howard paper and they immediately put that on the wire and it was on the front page of newspapers all around the world. The City had been very defensive when other people came in and criticized us, whether it be Harrison Salisbury or CBS News or any writers that came through. But, this time, their own people were beaten up. Clancy Lake, newsman from WAPI television, was beaten up. I think they broke the windshield in his car. He was parked outside. And that picture I saw around the world. At that particular time, they were having an international Rotary convention in Tokyo, Japan and the incoming chairman of the Chamber of Commerce, Sydney Smyer, was there with a group and they looked at that picture and they said, you know, &#039 ; We can&#039 ; t take this anymore.&#039 ; So Conner&#039 ; s action really stimulated the business community to start to figure out how can we get rid of this guy. They came back and they formed a committee, a secret committee and called themselves the Senior Citizens. It was made up of top CEO&#039 ; s from Birmingham businesses, partners from big law firms. One of our partners was a member, but not active. [There were] bankers. They started planning and one thing they saw was that if they could change the form of city government, that might be a way to get through to Conner. They asked the Birmingham Bar Association to make a study of what kind of government would be best for Birmingham. They were pushed on somewhat in that in the Fall of 1961 the federal judge, Judge Grooms, entered the order requiring the desegregation of Birmingham parks. The commission immediately said, &#039 ; Close the parks,&#039 ; and they sent a message to the Birmingham Park Board to close the parks. Former Mayor Jimmy Morgan had been appointed to the park board and he didn&#039 ; t get on the park board to close the parks. He got on the park board to build a zoo. The park board defied the commission, which had appointed them, and that was one of the most interesting things that happened. It was very rare for a city agency to stand up and just face down the commission, but the commission had a handle. The Alabama law required them to appropriate fifty thousand dollars ($50,000) a year to the parks--and that&#039 ; s an old law, when fifty thousand dollars was a lot more money. But the rest of their money was budgeted by the city, and, so, when the park board wouldn&#039 ; t close the parks, they repealed the budget of the park board and forced them to fire all of their employees. I&#039 ; m told that they had concrete poured down the holes of the city golf courses so that nobody could sneak on and play a round of golf. The Birmingham Bar Association made the study and in February 1962 they recommended a change to a Mayor/Council government. They also recommended about three or four amendments to the law [so] that, if you followed their plan you couldn&#039 ; t have had a changing city government for two or three years probably. I, frankly, thought that you couldn&#039 ; t get it. The legislature wasn&#039 ; t going to make changes if they were choosing sides, because Alabama politics for many years is run on what I call &#039 ; the law of the enemies&#039 ; . If you don&#039 ; t make any enemies, you can get re-elected. If you make enemies, you can&#039 ; t get re-elected and, so, the less a public official does, the less people he makes mad. I know they say that one Birmingham legislator served five terms and never introduced a bill, left the floor at every controversial vote and got re-elected five times because he didn&#039 ; t make anybody mad. He didn&#039 ; t do anything to make anybody mad. He didn&#039 ; t do anything to make anybody proud of him either, but that&#039 ; s beside the point. HUNTLEY: Let me ask you a question about when you talk about the Freedom Riders coming in and, of course, they were attacked. In the Black communities there was the idea that the police and the Klan were one and the same. How would you react to that? VANN: Well, I don&#039 ; t think they were one and the same, but I&#039 ; ll say this: If I went to a meeting at the Congregational Church on Center Street, which was a place where the Alabama Council meetings were frequently held, there might be a story in the Klan newspaper next week saying David Vann was out there, and I really think there were probably informers that informed for the police department and for the FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation]. At the same time, in fact-- [In] the famous picture of the beating, there&#039 ; s a guy with a very close cut hair. His back is to the camera. His name was Gary. Anyway, when I was mayor, Bill Baxley and I worked in support of each other to get the Justice Department to open the files on the bombing of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church and the FBI had lost all of the physical evidence. There were some Birmingham police officers that really would love to be the one that broke the case. If that Birmingham police [officer] could solve the case, that would be a great cop. And so, they worked with them. But I got to read... The Justice Department had refused to give Birmingham that evidence for years and refused to give the district attorney that evidence for years and I supposed they thought they wouldn&#039 ; t prosecute. That might have been true if they had given it to them in 1962. But, Bill Baxley, that was the thing he wanted to do. He had promised Chris McNair he would do that and Chris&#039 ; daughter, as you know was killed--[was] one of the four children that were killed. HUNTLEY: This is in the seventies [1970s] that you are referring to now? VANN: Yes. But, Carter&#039 ; s Justice Department did give us files and there was an interview with this guy whose picture is in there. It was a closed meeting of a congressional committee, so it was never published. But they asked him, &#039 ; Is that you in the picture?&#039 ; And he said, &#039 ; Yes.&#039 ; They said, &#039 ; Well, why have you always denied it?&#039 ; And he said, &#039 ; The FBI told me to. The FBI said if I was asked is that you--I was given a name, and I was always supposed to say, &#039 ; no, that&#039 ; s William Jones&#039 ; or whatever the name was.&#039 ; You see, he was supposed to positively identify by another name. Of course, that case was eventually broken because the niece testified. Howell Raines, in an article in the New York Times Magazine, said that one reason that he wasn&#039 ; t prosecuted was that the man&#039 ; s wife was an FBI informant and they were afraid that if he ever learned that, he&#039 ; d murder her. And, to protect their source, there was no prosecution for over ten years. HUNTLEY: Because you were active in those early years, in the fifties [1950s] and sixties [1960s] with the Council [on Human Relations], when you were called on by the businessmen to sort of interact with-- VANN: No, that really had little to do with it. The thing that gave me an unusual position was I probably knew... There really weren&#039 ; t but three or four White people that knew as many Black leaders as I did and had a personal relationship with them. But, the way I really got involved in the whole thing was, I was the organizer for Kennedy in the 1960 campaign. John Greenah and I were in the same law firm and he asked to be given some time to campaign for Goldwater, I mean for Nixon. And, I said, if you&#039 ; re going to do that, let me campaign for Kennedy. And the law firm, being a great institution, freed both of us to work in that presidential campaign. And they made me the organization chairman and I organized a committee in every box in the county and when the election was over, Bob Vance, who later was a federal judge and was assassinated by the bombing, mail bomb, he and I and several young people, the official party had refused to support Kennedy. And not pass resolutions, they were just hands off. And so, a group of young guys managed to take over the campaign and the governor, Governor Patterson was a strong Kennedy supporter. And so, we had the governor&#039 ; s office and we had John Sparkman, George Huddleston, they supported Kennedy, but originally no state official wanted to do it. They would all scat. Don&#039 ; t make enemies. That rule of don&#039 ; t make enemies. Well, Allison was one of the attorneys in the Alabama reapportionment case and I was aware of the Bar Association study but at that particular time, we were in court trying to get the first reapportionment order in the country, which we did in June. Bob Vance and I intervened and asked the court to delay a decision to give the legislature of Alabama one more chance. Patterson did call a special session and they did pass two reapportionment bills. And, they set up a special election in August to elect the new...they had increased the Senate to 67 so there were going to be a lot of new senators elected and they had made some rather conservative changes in the members of the House. But, I think this county was going to get two more representatives or something. We got the federal court to hold those plans were unconstitutional. And, we had this special election in August, but the legislature had already called it. The court didn&#039 ; t have to call an election because the election was already called by the legislature. I was busy promoting that. We had worked hard to get that order. We were very proud to have the first reapportionment order in the United States and we wanted good people to be elected. We had had a committee persuade what we called good people to run and I was trying to promote the vote. I&#039 ; m riding down the road and Dave Campbell, who had a talk show in those days, came on with his morning editorial to try to stir up interest for his night program and Abe Berkowitz had been on the Bar Association committee and he had been making the rounds of civic clubs talking about changing the city government and Dave said, &#039 ; Well, we ought to get up a petition and have an election on it, or we ought to get behind the government we got. It&#039 ; s not good for a city to be split.&#039 ; And, I said, &quot ; He can sit up on the mountain and pontificate easily, but get a petition.&#039 ; Glen Iris Civic Club on the southside had tried to get a petition and Mr. Conner had just sent plain clothes detectives around to pick up petitions as fast as they were signed. But I got to my office and said, &#039 ; You know, if I had me a petition booth across the street from every polling place, 10 days from now, when this special election was going to happen, I believe I can get up a petition in a single day.&#039 ; We could have voting lists that are published in the newspaper. We could check people off, make sure the signatures were valid and we could send somebody around to pick-up petitions once an hour so if Conner tried to get some of them we&#039 ; d have most of them because we would have a security system of our own. And, I called up Abe [Berkowitz] and I said, &#039 ; Abe, you really want to change the city government? I have figured out how to do it.&#039 ; And, I told him briefly what my plan was. He called me back and said the Executive Committee at the Chamber of Commerce would like to meet with me at 2:00 that afternoon. I said, &#039 ; Well, I&#039 ; ll be glad to meet with them, but I want to bring the president of the Birmingham Labor Council with me.&#039 ; [He said], &#039 ; Oh, businessmen and labor don&#039 ; t talk together.&#039 ; [I said], &#039 ; Look, this is a big decision. If you are going to do this and win it, you&#039 ; ve got to have both business and labor for it and I believe I can bring the labor unions with me.&#039 ; And, I had known Don Stafford very well from the Kennedy election campaign and I called Don and he said yes he would come. So, we had this meeting in Mr. Smyer&#039 ; s office and I outlined my simple plan. Some of the businessmen said, &#039 ; This is too important a thing to do in ten days notice. It needs to be planned carefully.&#039 ; My labor man said, &#039 ; I been sitting here thinking, yea, why hadn&#039 ; t we thought of this before? Let&#039 ; s go.&#039 ; I always think my labor man talked the businessmen into doing it. And they said we needed to get ten to twelve leading citizens that are non-controversial to head this up. I made a list of about 25 businessmen they thought fit that criteria. Some of them may have been other than businessmen but most of them were businessmen and we said we would meet the next day. Well, we came back the next day. All 25 had turned us down. They said, &#039 ; We&#039 ; ll donate money, but I do business with the city. I sell cars to the city. I have insurance with the city. I have all these things... &#039 ; And old Smyer, he had been a Dixiecrat politician. Members of the legislature knew government on its practical side and he leaned back and I&#039 ; ll never forget what he said. [He said], &#039 ; If we can&#039 ; t get twelve silk stockings, let&#039 ; s get 500 anybodies&#039 ; His son and I went to law school together and went back mimeographed off this thing and it said, &#039 ; I hereby agree to be a member of the Birmingham Citizens for Progress. To sponsor a petition to give the people of Birmingham the right to decide for themselves what form of government is best for their city.&#039 ; You could sign that without making any particular commitment. We mimeographed these off and gave everybody a stack of them, because we didn&#039 ; t have Xerox. We had to run them off on a mimeograph machine. But, I then said, &#039 ; You know, you can talk to 25 businessmen and not get it into the paper, but you can&#039 ; t go out recruiting 500 people without it getting in the paper. I want your permission to go to the papers, tell them what we are doing, but get them to agree that it&#039 ; s not news until we get our committee.&#039 ; I met with some of the editorial staff of the Birmingham News and they agreed that until we know whether you can get your committee, it&#039 ; s not news. I went to the editor of the Post Herald, Jimmy Mills, and he gave me the same commitment. That was a Thursday. Friday nothing in the papers. Saturday nothing in the papers. Sunday the whole edition, which I can&#039 ; t even find a copy of-- VANN: So the Birmingham News had this, I believe a front-page story to my recollection. I can&#039 ; t find a copy of it. HUNTLEY: Sunday morning? VANN: Sunday morning. The official copy in the library has a story on an inside page. But only one-- You know, the Birmingham News, in those days, printed about six or seven different editions and I can&#039 ; t find this one. Maybe there&#039 ; s somebody out there...and it&#039 ; ll turn up, so you can write. Anyway, it had my picture on the front page. [The headline read], &#039 ; Hugo Black&#039 ; s law clerk when the Court wrote the school desegregation case, trying to run Bull Conner out of City Hall.&#039 ; And, I said, &#039 ; You know, they&#039 ; ve got the knife in my back and they&#039 ; re twisting it.&quot ; There was a telephone call and I said, &#039 ; Oh, here come the phone calls.&#039 ; Well, the phone call was from one of the Republican committee people from Roebuck. He said, &#039 ; That&#039 ; s a great idea. Can we help?&#039 ; And so, all of a sudden, without any prior planning, we had the Kennedy for President people, the Nixon for President people, the labor unions and the Chamber of Commerce and the real estate board and the PTA Council. HUNTLEY: And the Republicans? VANN: Well, we had the Nixon for President people. In those days, the Republicans were a right tight knit group and their main objective was to control the patronage when they got a Republican president. They really were not very keen on letting all these strangers that just formed committees come in. So, in a sense, the Republicans at that point in time were outsiders just like our Democratic committee were outsiders to the official committee. But I had studied the election returns of the May primary and it was very interesting because for the first time that I could recall, the Black boxes and the southside boxes and the over-the-mountain boxes all voted against George Wallace together. George Wallace was unable to carry Jefferson County. And I said, &#039 ; If we can put those forces together--the liberal Democrats, the Republicans and the Black vote--we can win.&#039 ; And I had that pretty well fixed. Sure enough, ten days later we put out our petition. Smyer had improved the plan a little bit. He said he&#039 ; d print the petitions. But he printed them with snap out carbons so when you signed one you actually signed five copies. And, we needed 7,500 names. We got 12,000 in one day. Almost 12,000. I&#039 ; m not sure anybody ever knows the full number, but... So we came from out of the blue. In one day, we had enough votes. There were almost enough votes to win the election signing the petitions. HUNTLEY: People were really excited about the possibilities then? VANN: Yeah, and we didn&#039 ; t put petitions in the Black boxes. We wanted to stay as far away from the racial problems as we could. [Takes a drink of water.] But the Klan people came and beat up one of our labor people out at Harrison Park. They beat him up early in the day, so we got his pictures on the final edition of the Birmingham News, blood running down his face. [It was] Lloyd Davis. I&#039 ; ll probably see him tomorrow. They sabotaged us. They had people volunteer to run booths and then not show up. We had to hire Kelly Girls. Some of the booths weren&#039 ; t really open all day. We&#039 ; d probably have done better if we... if they hadn&#039 ; t done that. But that&#039 ; s one of the tricks of politics. I then called the Mayor. I had met with him several times in that week beforehand because he had run an ad. Art Hanes had run an ad when he ran for mayor supporting a change to Mayor/Council government. I told him, &#039 ; We got over 11,000 names and we are going to hold a press conference for about 30 minutes and you&#039 ; ve got really three choices. You can support us and you may be mayor of this city for the next fifty years. You can oppose us and I think that&#039 ; s a bad political position for you to take. And, if you can&#039 ; t take either of those, say, &#039 ; I&#039 ; ll call an election and let the people decide. This is a question for the people to decide.&#039 ; Well, the morning paper came out. [The headline read], &#039 ; Mayor says he&#039 ; ll call the election and let the people decide.&#039 ; I understand that Bull Conner earned his name that morning. He came down the hall with flames virtually spouting from his nose &#039 ; cause his office was in the north end of the building and the mayor was in the south end. And when the Birmingham News came out with &#039 ; The Mayor refuses to call the election,&#039 ; he said he had discovered that David Vann was a communist and he didn&#039 ; t call elections for communists. But the law provided if the mayor refused to call the election, the probate judge should call the election. It just happened that the probate judge had been in the legislature and had been one of the sponsors of the Mayor/Council Act. One of the things they did, they started attacking us because some petitions you file in the courthouse you have to pay, I think it was ten cents a name or a dollar a name. I think it was ten cents a name, and we were getting our petition free. I said, &#039 ; I&#039 ; ll deposit the money,&#039 ; and I literally raised that money walking from Second Avenue to the courthouse. People stopped me, gave me $20 bills, $10 bills and by the time I got to the courthouse, I had $750, which is what I needed. I went in to see Judge Mead, and said, &#039 ; Here, I brought my $750.&#039 ; &#039 ; Well, the law doesn&#039 ; t require you to.&#039 ; [I said], &#039 ; Judge, I brought $750 I want to deposit with you to cover the checking of the petition.&#039 ; And he said, &#039 ; Alright,&#039 ; took it and gave me a receipt. After the election was over, he called me up and said, &#039 ; Are you ready to get your money back?&#039 ; And he returned the $750 after we had won the election. HUNTLEY: How were you pictured then? Were you ever under attack as a result of the role that you played? VANN: Oh yes. People threatened to kill me. There were a lot of people making trouble for the law firm. I really had to resign from the law firm. They were very fair to me. In fact, they paid me my salary for a year after that. HUNTLEY: You had to resign from the firm? VANN: I resigned from the firm. You see, we won that election in November of 1962. The same day George Wallace was first elected governor of Alabama, the people of Birmingham voted to take me to course. And, then, I was one of a group that went to Boutwell and asked him to run. He was an outgoing Lieutenant Governor, a member of my church and a very good man. He was just part of the culture that we had and he had sponsored an amendment to the constitution to have freedom of choice on schools. But, he agreed, we had to change. And Tom King ran. Tom had run the year before. In fact, the Freedom Rider thing happened in the middle of the mayor&#039 ; s race in 1961. And, although Tom had led the first heat, he came in second in the runoff and Hanes was elected. HUNTLEY: At this same time... VANN: Tom ran and then Conner. I ran around like a big.... We had eight speakers and I was one of them. We ran around with charts, running like a civics class, talking about here&#039 ; s this form of government, here&#039 ; s how it works and here&#039 ; s this form. In the commission government there are no checks and balances. The same people who pass the taxes spend the money. Over here, you&#039 ; ve got a council and a mayor and the council passes the laws and the mayor administers the laws. HUNTLEY: Did you go to any Black communities during that time? VANN: Look, I stayed away. I didn&#039 ; t even dare call a Black person on the telephone, because I was sure my telephone was tapped. HUNTLEY: So then, these eight individuals never really went out to Black communities to get any... VANN: As a matter of fact, we were trying to stay as far .... That&#039 ; s what Conner wanted to do... For instance, the first thing I did after it was clear that we were going to have a thing and I was in charge of running the campaign, I sent an ad man to both television stations to buy television time. I wanted a half-hour of television the night before the election. Both stations refused to sell me television time. They said change in the city government is not a matter of sufficient public importance to justify the opening of television time. And yet, about a week later, they both decided it was important enough for them to do a documentary. Well, the election had to be a three-way election. Mayor/Council, Commission or City Manager with a run off between the top two. And the Commission&#039 ; s ace in the hole was to get enough people to vote for the Manager government to have a run off. And, that was our worst enemy. There was nobody in town campaigning for the City Manager [form of government]. Both television stations hired a political science professor, one from Montevallo and the other from the University of Alabama to come in to talk for ten minutes on how great the City Manager government was. At that time, most political science people thought the City Manager government was the best form of government and it is a good form of government for smaller cities, but in large cities it never really worked that well. HUNTLEY: What was their motivation in having people come and talk about the City Manager form of government? VANN: Well, I think-- I don&#039 ; t know, but I know I didn&#039 ; t like it because I wanted to win without a runoff and if enough people voted City Manager that would force a run off and in those days in politics for the run off you ran ads in the paper showing half of the Black people had voted at Legion Field and the Black people had voted at the Municipal Auditorium and scare all the White folks and you win the election. It was the opposite of the bloody shirt in Ohio, but it was a bloody shirt. I was.... and most people thought that if we had to have a run off, we&#039 ; d lose. So...but it turned out that we won without a run off by about two votes in each box. If two people had voted the other way in each box in Birmingham, we would have lost. It was nip and tuck. And, then Conner.... When I&#039 ; d go out speaking, I&#039 ; d say, &#039 ; If you like Mr. Conner, elect him mayor, but we need a new form of government.&quot ; He would, of course, say, &#039 ; No, I&#039 ; ll never run for mayor. I&#039 ; ll never run for mayor.&#039 ; Of course, he immediately did run for mayor and there was a run off. But the run off didn&#039 ; t help them because the Black voters had voted for Tom King. Boutwell had a few Black votes but not a lot. Conner had none. So when they were in the run off together, they were unable to use the traditional bloody shirt politics to beat Boutwell, and Boutwell ended up winning very handily in the run off. HUNTLEY: At the same time that this was going on, something else is taking place of significance in Birmingham. VANN: I think the SCLC was having a national meeting here. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. VANN: They didn&#039 ; t want to interfere with what we were doing. They thought voting Conner out was a pretty good thing. Business people were having meetings. I had one meeting they invited me to at The Church of the Advent and that&#039 ; s the first time I met Shuttlesworth. Shuttlesworth came in to the room and said, &#039 ; Oh, that&#039 ; s David Vann. I&#039 ; ve been wanting to meet him,&#039 ; because he had read about me in the newspaper. They nearly had some things put together, but Conner&#039 ; s group sent word from City Hall that if you take those signs down you&#039 ; re going to jail and we will run a picture in the paper of Mr. Pizitz himself behind bars in the city jail. HUNTLEY: Colored and White signs? VANN: They were talking about taking down the Colored and White signs, yes. It was really pretty obvious that to make any rational resolution of our problem, Conner had to go. Remarkably, I know I had people that were my friends in the business community call me and say, &#039 ; David, you know you can&#039 ; t win this thing. Please be ready to protect...be careful what you say.&#039 ; HUNTLEY: How did you view SCLC coming in to town at the time? VANN: Really I was so busy doing what I was doing, I didn&#039 ; t worry about it. Now, Smyer and his committee did worry about it. They met with some of them, I think and they sort of talked it out and decided not to... that they would be careful not to try to interfere with the political... You know, Black people got tired of being kicked around by politics, I&#039 ; m sure. HUNTLEY: There were efforts by the Movement to have meetings with this, I don&#039 ; t know if it was the Senior Citizens at that time.. VANN: Yes they did. There were some meetings. HUNTLEY: In the initial stages though, was it true that the businessmen refused to meet with Shuttlesworth? VANN: Yeah, I think they refused. Shuttlesworth was a firebrand and he no longer lived in Birmingham. He lived in Cincinnati and that sort of gave him .... They said, &#039 ; We&#039 ; ll talk with the local leaders, but we can&#039 ; t talk with you. You&#039 ; re from Cincinnati.&#039 ; But I know I came to one meeting with the businessmen and Shuttlesworth was present there. Fred was always eager to stir things up, and I&#039 ; ve told him, I said, &#039 ; Birmingham thought you were a trap.&#039 ; HUNTLEY: He was always eager to do what? To stir something up? VANN: To get something in the paper. HUNTLEY: Okay. VANN: We always said that he could call Bull Conner and say, &#039 ; Bull, I&#039 ; m going to get on the bus at Second Avenue and 19th Street at 2:00 this afternoon&#039 ; and Conner would come arrest him. There&#039 ; s a newspaper story. It made Shuttlesworth a hero with his followers. It made Conner a hero with his followers. What&#039 ; s a poor city going to do when it&#039 ; s trapped in that kind of thing? So-- But, anyway, Barney Monahan was the president of Vulcan Materials. I know he headed up a group and they actually had some near agreement on some things and I&#039 ; ve heard that said that they backed out. They agreed to do it and then backed out. But, they backed out because the city government threatened to use all the force it had to prevent it from happening and to arrest the businessmen. After we won the election, Conner refused... Conner and his group refused to leave office. The city commission had actually announced a week or so before the new government was sworn in that they weren&#039 ; t going to leave office, and that gave King&#039 ; s people a chance to.... I remember I was on a program with Wyatt T. Walker, and he said, &#039 ; We talked about it, and there was a lot of pressure on us to wait and let the new government have a chance to deal with this thing.&#039 ; The President and the Attorney General, a committee of Black ministers... I heard that Andrew Young said, &#039 ; Why do you want to go to Birmingham? Even the Black preachers don&#039 ; t want you to come to Birmingham.&#039 ; And, of course, there was a problem. The Black political people had worked their fingers to the bone to change the city government, to elect a new government and I sat in on some of Boutwell&#039 ; s meetings with them and Boutwell had made some pretty surprising, to me, commitments to them. HUNTLEY: Like what, for instance? VANN: About Black police officers and other things. I don&#039 ; t remember the details. But, they felt they had chips on the table and that King was going to come in here and pick up their chips and claim credit for them. Some of them felt that way, I think. HUNTLEY: Who were these leaders that you met with? VANN: I&#039 ; m talking about the Black political leaders. HUNTLEY: The political leaders here in town? VANN: Yes, the ones that had worked so hard to win the election. Here is somebody coming from out of town, to claim credit for what we&#039 ; ve accomplished. You know, if you work on something real hard, you feel like you got an investment in it. And, actually, until the children started marching, the Black community was really split. I remember I was talking to a Black businessman. I think it was the editor of The Birmingham World. Dr. Gaston said, talking to him, and I probably talked to both of them, is the truth of the matter. But, I can remember, I think the editor of The Birmingham World, I was talking to him and he was very anti-King. HUNTLEY: Emory Jackson? VANN: Emory Jackson. He said, &#039 ; You know, they said they don&#039 ; t get paid anything. Oh, yes, an expense account.&#039 ; I says, &#039 ; Over at the motel.&#039 ; [He said&#039 ; &#039 ; Ooh, I&#039 ; ll swap my salary for that expense account any day.&#039 ; Statements like that. But then he said, &#039 ; Lawyer Vann, I&#039 ; m looking out my window.&#039 ; He said, &#039 ; They&#039 ; ve turned fire hoses on children. They&#039 ; re rolling a little girl down the middle of the street. I can&#039 ; t talk to you no more.&#039 ; And the minute Bull thought about getting the dogs and hoses he stopped [the split in the Black community]. Actually, strategically, that was the worst thing [Conner] could have done. In an instant, if there was any dissent in the Black community, it disappeared. Instantly, everybody was behind it. And, the interesting thing is, you know, the Sheriff over in Albany, Georgia had pretty well defeated King. When King got himself arrested because he thought he wanted to be in jail and talk from the jail, the Sheriff put up his bond and wouldn&#039 ; t let him stay in jail. HUNTLEY: In Albany? VANN: In Albany, yes. When they arrested people, they sent them to jails in other towns and the strategy was to fill our jails and Conner just cooperated with it. Wyatt T. Walker says, &#039 ; This will be our last chance to march against Bull Conner,&#039 ; and they knew him so well. They knew how he would react. I always tell people the hoses and the dogs, that was Bull Conner&#039 ; s show. That was not our show. Conner did not speak for Birmingham at that point. He had been rejected by the voters three times in the previous six months. The Circuit Court of Jefferson County held that he was no longer legally an official of the city and he was there only by virtue of an appeal pending in the Alabama Supreme Court. HUNTLEY: Wyatt Walker obviously would suggest that Bull Conner was the best thing that ever happened .... VANN: Oh sure. Well, if you go back, the thing that really persuaded the business community that Birmingham had to change, they had to find a way, using all the skills and pressure and power they had to make change was because of what Bull Conner did with respect to the Freedom Riders. It&#039 ; s interesting. Back in the &#039 ; 20s we had the largest Ku Klux Klan in Birmingham of any place in the United States. But the Birmingham business community did not support the Klan. The newspapers did not support the Klan. And, by 1932, the Klan was pretty well dead in this county. HUNTLEY: How did the Klan get to be so important? Because, at that time it was basically a fact that a person who was running for office, if they were not a supporter of the Klan, they couldn&#039 ; t get elected. Is that true in the 1920s? VANN: I&#039 ; m told that. And I asked Justice Black about joining the Klan. He said, &#039 ; Well, I joined every organization that had members of the jury. I tried jury cases.&#039 ; And, I think that&#039 ; s probably true. You know, they changed the form of city government in 1911 from a Mayor/Council to a Commission and the officials weren&#039 ; t elected. They were all appointed by the governor. The first act of the new city commission was to appoint Hugo L. Black to be Recorder&#039 ; s Court Judge of the City of Birmingham. And I&#039 ; m told that he refused to put Black people in jail for gambling until they started arresting the White people at the country club for gambling. He said, &#039 ; It&#039 ; s not right to treat one one way and the other another.&#039 ; The only case he ever took to the U.S. Supreme Court was the Lewis case. Lewis was a Black convict leased to a mining company and an accident broke his back or some serious injury. Black represented him and got a judgment against the mining company. The mining company filed bankruptcy to avoid paying the Black man his money. Black took it to court and he lost. He lost in the Alabama Supreme Court. But, he took his case to the... informal pauperous to the United States Supreme Court. He personally took it. He got on the train and personally took his papers. And, when he got to the Supreme Court, at that time the Supreme Court actually didn&#039 ; t have a building. It had a... it heard its cases on the first floor of the Capitol Building. If you go there today, they&#039 ; ll show you the old Supreme Court building. The Justices had their offices at home, but there was a clerk&#039 ; s office and the clerk refused to accept the Judge&#039 ; s petition for [certiary]. And, the Judge said, &#039 ; Well, it&#039 ; s in the rules. A pauper can bring his case.&#039 ; He [the clerk] said, &#039 ; Well, yeah, but we don&#039 ; t take those. If we ever started taking informal pauperous cases we&#039 ; d be flooded.&#039 ; And Black said, &#039 ; Well, I want to speak to Justice Samford,&#039 ; who was the Judge assigned to the Fifth Circuit. He said, &#039 ; You mean, Justice, that it says here in the rules I can file this paper but the marshall, the clerk, will not accept it? He says it&#039 ; s the policy not to accept informal pauperous cases.&#039 ; Justice Samford called the clerk in and ordered him to allow Hugo Black to file his case. And he won his case. Reversed it and Lewis got his money. But I think those things...I really take him at his word when he says, &#039 ; I joined every organization,&#039 ; because, frankly, I don&#039 ; t think he would have been elected Senator without support of the Klan. HUNTLEY: So the Klan was in fact very powerful? VANN: Very powerful. But, between the [19]26 election and the 1932 election, the Klan had virtually disappeared from Alabama politics. HUNTLEY: If they were not supported by politicians nor by the businessmen, who supported them? VANN: Well, they made... You know, a lot of time people get to be too big for their britches. They would go into churches and make donations and make a to-do of it. Yeah, I don&#039 ; t think the politicians supported the Klan. I think you look at the democratic government again. The strength of the democratic government is also the weakness that the public is somewhat fickle. It can change its mind quickly from one year to the next. That&#039 ; s why we have a Bill of Rights---to protect people against those changes. The government, there are simply some things they just can&#039 ; t do to protect the individual freedom. And that&#039 ; s what the 14th Amendment ultimately did to protect the Black people of this country. But it took it 100 years, because in 1901 there was enough racial prejudice on the Supreme Court itself. You know the Supreme Court owed it to correct that mistake because it made the mistake. If you look back in some of the history like C. Vann. Woodward&#039 ; s books on that period, [you&#039 ; ll learn that] immediately prior to 1901, the Populist Party was a bi-racial party. It had Black candidates and White candidates. But the minute they took the vote away from the Blacks, the Populist Party virtually became the party of the Klan, because that&#039 ; s where their support was. A lot of people think Cobb was elected governor of Alabama on the Populist ticket and it was stolen from him. Of course, Black came from Clay County, which was a heavy Populist area. And Populism left an imprint on our mantel that practically every successful office holder for many years was basically a Populist. As a Populist, he could be liberal or he could be conservative, depending on what the issue was. And, people look to this people to be very different. But really, Lister Hill, John Sparkman, George Wallace, Hugo Black, Bibb Graves, they all came out of the same basic political ideology. Some stressed one thing. Some stressed another. Of course, ultimately, George Wallace met with the Black leaders and said, &#039 ; Look, I did the wrong thing. I made a mistake. I shouldn&#039 ; t have done it.&#039 ; Being good Christians, the Black voters accepted his apology and forgave him when we had a chance to get a bright, young, new-- Lo and behold, Wallace, the smart politician, figured how to get a large part of the Black vote and overcome McMillan. HUNTLEY: David, throughout the history of the Black people in this country, there seem to be instances where seemingly what was good for Black people, was not good for the country and vice versa. Let me just ask you, what in fact would have happened in Birmingham if Bull Conner had not done what he did? VANN: Well, let me say that at the time I sincerely believed that we had pulled off a political miracle, that we had proved that the democratic structure can successfully make changes. And, of course, I had won a victory. You know, people used to say, &#039 ; There&#039 ; s no way you can beat Bull Conner,&#039 ; but we did. Partly, he beat himself. He did a lot of ridiculous things. HUNTLEY: The point I&#039 ; m raising is, what would that have done for race relations in this city? Would they have been any different? Would there be changes made? VANN: Well, I think-- Let me say this: I think that that election had strange results. I think we had a decade of Black and White working together in unprecedented ways. In fact, the city was recognized as an all-American city because of the level of cooperation. One of the first things the city council did when it took power in July of 1963 was it repealed every segregation law on the books in the City of Birmingham in one sitting. And, that was essential because we had made agreements, unsigned. You know, I see a lot of historical things. This was signed on such an such date. The racial settlement of 1963 was never signed by anybody. It was announced by Smyer and by King. It required the desegregation of lunch counters and the removal of the racial signs from elevators and restaurants and drinking fountains and all those things. It required the beginning of an employment program to hire Black clerks in downtown stores. All of those things were illegal under the laws of the City of Birmingham, and Bull Conner had hired every policeman. The new government had a police department, all of whom were hired by Bull Conner. It was essential that before we began we had a sixty-day cooling off period. When that sixty days was over and the time came when we had to start actually doing those things, we didn&#039 ; t have those laws off those books or it&#039 ; s hard to blame a policeman for not enforcing the law that&#039 ; s on the books. We had to get those off. And the new mayor/council had the guts to do it. We created about eleven bi-racial committees on every subject you could imagine--on taxation, recreation, schools. I think we called our school committee the Committee to Support the School Board, and Conner had appointed all members of the school board. The law firm that represented him represented the school board. So, we had to go into the desegregation of schools. I&#039 ; ll say Reed Barnes that was a lawyer from that firm...no lawyer ever performed a professional service any better than Reed Barnes. A lot of people are unaware of it. There was never a hearing on school desegregation in Birmingham. It was done by agreement from the very first day. Until this day there has never been a hearing, I don&#039 ; t think, because the NAACP lawyers and the lawyers from the school board have been able to work out the various steps along the way. The first desegregation was in September of 1963 and the new government hadn&#039 ; t been in office but two months and handled the most emotional thing.... HUNTLEY: But there were also marches even after the new government was in.... VANN: Yes, yes there were. HUNTLEY: So there are different interpretations of what the agreements were. VANN: Yes, oh yes. As a matter of fact, some of the ACHMR [Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights] people tried to start them over again about ten days afterward. They put up handbills in the schools. I called Andrew Young and I said, &#039 ; These break our agreement.&#039 ; Andy got on an airplane, came over, sat down. He looked at them. He said, &#039 ; You&#039 ; re right. It breaks the agreement.&#039 ; He gets on the phone and calls Dr. King. He says, &#039 ; This is wrong. We agreed to do something and now they&#039 ; re...people are not going to honor the agreement.&#039 ; King himself came. [He] got here about 2:00 in the afternoon that day and they got a group of the high school leaders over at the Gaston Motel. I was not there, but I saw it on television. King said to them, he said, &#039 ; Look, we made this progress to open the doors of opportunity to you and I want you to go back to school, learn your lessons, prepare yourself for the opportunities that lay ahead of you.&#039 ; Well, they weren&#039 ; t too enthusiastic. That sounded good, but they were young people and they thought marching was sort of fun. If you look at the pictures of the hosing, there are Black kids dancing in the hosing. It&#039 ; s obviously.... you&#039 ; re not going to have any standing among your peers unless you get arrested. HUNTLEY: There are also disagreements between Smyers and Shuttlesworth in terms of how they interpreted the agreements. Smyer says that one person.... VANN: Oh, yes. Oh yes. Yes. Fred-- Fred-- Fred did not want it to stop. HUNTLEY: But by the same token, Fred was raising a very serious question. He said, &#039 ; This is what the agreement says, but--&#039 ; The disagreement was over how many people, how many Blacks would be hired in stores. Smyer had suggested that one person would be hired in one store. Fred was saying that the agreement was to have at least one person in every store. VANN: Look, there&#039 ; s no doubt. As they say, the agreement was never signed. It was read by both. If you look at what King said, we would start a program of employment and we would start with at least three clerks in downtown stores. I&#039 ; ll be honest with you. I had a commitment from five stores to put on a Black clerk. But I said when push comes to shove and they start breaking the windows of the stores, some of those folks are going to back out. And, so, I only gave three. I promised three. Dr. King knew that. Now Shuttlesworth wasn&#039 ; t there, but I understand he had a press conference in New York. So he says, &#039 ; You mean you settled for three?&#039 ; Well, I meant three in every store.&#039 ; Well, once Fred commits himself to something, he is going to follow it down the line and he did. But King came back and stopped him. And, the children did not march again. They took King at his word. I&#039 ; ve always thought that it was very important that the last speech that King made in Birmingham as a part of this episode in his life was a speech to the school children in Birmingham saying, &#039 ; We are opening opportunities for you. You need to apply yourself. You need to get ready, because you&#039 ; re going to have better opportunities than any of the people of our race that preceded you.&#039 ; I say I saw that on television. As to whether that tape exists any more, I do not know. HUNTLEY: Obviously those were some very turbulent days and there was a period, a turning point, in the history of Birmingham. VANN: I think it was a turning point in the history of America. A group of businessmen went and met with Kennedy. They had a fifteen minute appointment. He kept them two and a half hours. And, I believe up until that day, the Kennedys thought this was too hot an issue to raise until after the next election. But when he saw that Birmingham had made a voluntary agreement between its business community and its Black community, and had the guts to carry it out, and it wasn&#039 ; t easy. Parisian&#039 ; s had every piece of glass in Parisian&#039 ; s stores broken that night. Emil Hess, bless his heart, he called every glass company in the county. By the time the sun came up, every window was in tact. There was no broken glass. Whoever did it came back to admire his work and thought, &#039 ; God was I in another city or something?&#039 ; There were people-- Like the night that Dr. King was assasinated, I got a call very shortly afterwards from a Black businessman. He said, &#039 ; We&#039 ; ve got to go to work. We can&#039 ; t let the sun rise on this.&#039 ; And we got phone calls and both the Black and White communities going all over this city during that five hour period. By the time the sun rose, we were able to announce a memorial march from 16th Street Baptist Church with special services in honor of Dr. King on the steps of the courthouse. The leaders of every denomination in this city, Black and White, met at 16th Street Baptist Church and they had a memorial march in honor of Dr. King and a service at the courthouse. This was virtually the only major city in the United States where no buildings were burned, no riots where held. You know what was happening in Detroit. They had to send two airborne divisions in Detroit to stop the protests! And you say, &#039 ; Well it&#039 ; s silly. Why do they burn down their own houses?&#039 ; Well, people in emotional states do a lot of things that are illogical. But [in] Birmingham, we had Black and White people that kept that from blowing the top off. And, it could have. I doubt if there are very few cities in the United States where Dr. King was held in greater esteem by its Black community. Those things don&#039 ; t happen by accident. I always tell people that nothing happens unless somebody makes it happen. HUNTLEY: How would you characterize Birmingham, then, in relationship to other cities where race relations is concerned today? VANN: I think our race relations today are not as good as they were ten years ago. The two races have pulled apart in a lot of ways. The politics have something to do with it. HUNTLEY: Is that because of Birmingham being now predominately a Black city? VANN: That has something to do with it. You see, I insist that segregation was not a matter of laws. It was a matter of inbred customs. The thing that held the system together was not so much the Bull Conner&#039 ; s. They were people that responded to something and they made a political play out of it. George Wallace knew he could go to Chicago and find people that were very strong racists that would vote for him if he would go to Chicago. He found people in Wisconsin and he found people all over the country. HUNTLEY: Minneapolis. VANN: But, what I&#039 ; m saying is that race relations are either getting better or they&#039 ; re getting worse all the time. It&#039 ; s an emotion... There are a lot of emotions attached to it. It&#039 ; s almost human nature for people that are different or who look different to be suspicious of each other, whether it be prehistoric tribes or be the middle east or be Armenia, Azhbarjhan or Croatia. You know, it takes a lot of civilization to deal with that. And, I think from 1960 on, through Jimmy Carter, whoever was President realized that to have good relations in America--race relations in America--it was very important that the President of the United States make it very clear that this is what we need to do. After that, the Republicans really set about on a southern strategy that was begun, I don&#039 ; t think by Nixon but during the Nixon day. I think Nixon, for all his criticism, he stood well on this issue. But they saw that they needed to take the South away from the Democrats and they were very careful to actually raise racial issues and come down on what they considered to be the White side of the issue. And over and over..... And Bush did the same. I&#039 ; m not saying they were mean spirited. I&#039 ; m sure that they would consider me very unfair to say this was racist, but I don&#039 ; t think there&#039 ; s any question. For instance, I think the enthusiasm of the Bush Administration in setting up the gerrymandering of Black districts was in part a realization that every Black district would create four Republican districts by taking-- By reducing the Democratic vote in these districts, we can take over the Congress. I think a big part of taking over the Congress has very little to do with that &#039 ; Contract with America.&#039 ; It was mainly that they gerrymandered the districts to reduce the Democratic office holders and increase the Republican office holders and at the same time appeal to the Black because he&#039 ; s getting more Black congressmen. He might get-- The Black congressman will then vote his way, but lose three others that would have voted his way. The world is full of unintended results. You know, it&#039 ; s like they&#039 ; re building prisons. They work with everybody in prison, but they don&#039 ; t want any education program in the prison. Well, let me tell you, young people are going to be learning something. I think we are creating crime universities. They are going to go to prison and learning how to be better criminals and the crime wave will get worse and worse and worse until we begin using prevention. One of the best prevention programs is to take these kids--and most of them will test out about the third grade because they were socially promoted but they were never able to do the work after about the second grade--and you... I worked for the program in Draper Prison where we took those kids and in two and half to three years, qualified them for a GED. We actually got some scholarship money to send ex-criminals to college. One of those earned a PhD and has done a lot of good work. But, people say, &#039 ; I don&#039 ; t want to help them. I want to punish them.&#039 ; Well, they are going to end up punishing their own families unless they approach the problem as rational. They are either going to teach them to be better criminals or teach them to be better citizens. I&#039 ; d rather teach them to be better citizens. HUNTLEY: David, I appreciate... VANN: And this has a lot to do with the racial thing. HUNTLEY: Absolutely. I appreciate you taking this much time out of your schedule. We are going to have to do this again because obviously you have so much to say and we&#039 ; ll just have to do this again. VANN: Yeah, I have a few more stories. HUNTLEY: I&#039 ; m certain that you have and we will definitely get those stories on. We want to thank you for coming out today. VANN: It takes a lot of soul searching. HUNTLEY: Absolutely, you have been a leader in terms of just getting people to think. Again, I appreciate you coming. VANN: Thank you very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=DVann1995.xml DVann1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource David Vann (1995) Description An account of the resource David Vann discusses the political climate in Birmingham during the Movement including the role of businesses, the influence of the KKK and his time as United States Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black's law clerk. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950202V Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-02-02 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/c6bee3152589665f1db7e2548660385e.jpg a0f10c711120004153fea3345837be6b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Deenie Drew OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=DDrew1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Red Cross OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.3 January 27, 1995 Deenie Drew Interviewed on January 27, 1995 19950127D 1:03:51 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Jess Holdnak and Alexandra Smith Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Red Cross Deenie Drew Horace Huntley Video 1:|6(3)|18(13)|40(5)|57(10)|76(9)|92(17)|117(1)|136(10)|152(16)|164(7)|182(7)|191(5)|210(6)|233(4)|256(8)|275(9)|289(8)|302(5)|320(10)|331(11)|346(15)|374(11)|388(9)|407(13)|427(10)|449(13)|467(4)|493(6)|507(2)|532(2)|548(4)|560(6)|577(12)|596(12)|611(12)|629(10)|651(10)|669(1)|688(8)|708(1)|718(10)|737(11)|751(3)|764(2)|781(2)|796(5)|808(5)|820(10)|838(10)|857(13)|870(2)|880(2)|899(15)|912(4)|937(7)|956(15)|974(12)|989(17)|1004(2)|1028(7)|1050(3)|1067(13) 0 https://youtu.be/HZK9xo9VqBs YouTube video English 113 Introduction Good morning. Dr. Huntley introduces and begins the interview. African Americans--Civil rights--History ; Oral history 33.516405, -86.814553 18 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ Birmingham Civil Rights Institute 171 Early Life and Family I notice that you are not a native Alabamian, so can you just give me just a little of your background? Where are you from, siblings, something about your family— Ms. Drew discusses growing up in Ardmore, Pennsylvania. Background ; Family Ardmore (Pa.) ; New York (N.Y.) 224 Biographical Background: Father Well, the greatest thing about my Dad, I guess, is the fact that he lived to be one hundred and four years old. He was a water boy in the Civil War and he used to tell hair-raising tales about his youth. Ms. Drew details her father's long, event-filled life. He lived to be 104 years old. Prizefighting Ardmore (Pa.) ; Civil War ; North Carolina 441 Move to New York You left Ardmore after high school and you eventually ended up in New York. Tell me a little about the transition from Ardmore to New York. Ms. Drew lived in New York City during the art and music boom in Harlem. She was close to Gordon Parks and other famed artists. Art New York (N.Y.) ; Parks, Gordon, 1912-2006 ; United States. Army. Signal Corps 703 Working for the Red Cross Well, I had made application when I was probably eighteen or nineteen years old, at the very beginning, when people were being recruited and making applications for the World War Two positions, and I was too young. Ms. Drew discusses leaving New York to work for the Red Cross in Alabama. American National Red Cross ; New York (N.Y.) ; Tuskegee (Ala.) 808 Moving South What did your friends and relatives have to say about you leaving the East Coast coming to the Deep South? Ms. Drew took a train from New York to Tuskegee on a move that most friends and family discouraged. Segregation ; Train American National Red Cross ; Tuskegee (Ala.) 1002 Living in Tuskegee Well, tell me, what was the transition like from New York City, urban and really exciting, to a little one-horse town, Tuskegee? Ms. Drew recounts her experiences living and working in Tuskegee with other young people. Assistant Field Director ; Liquor American National Red Cross ; Mitchell Airfield ; New York (N.Y.) ; Tuskegee (Ala.) ; Veteran's Hospital 1301 John Drew Is this where you met John Drew? Did you meet John in Tuskegee? Ms. Drew describes first meeting her husband, John Drew. Drew, John ; Husband Insurance ; Philadelphia (Pa.) ; Tuskegee (Ala.) 1415 Living in Birmingham Then when did you move to Birmingham? Ms. Drew helped run a candy store in Birmingham before joining/creating the Movement. Gertrude Anderson ; Nanette's Homemade Candy Birmingham (Ala.) 33.521075, -86.831679 18 Former location of Nanette's Homemade Candy factory 1624 The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Now, when you came back, I'm assuming that's in the mid-1950’s or so and prior to the development of the Alabama Christian Movement. Ms. Drew was a founding member of the Movement- continued later. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1678 Living in Dynamite Hill Tell me a little bit before we get into the Movement. Tell me what community you lived in at the time. Ms. Drew describes living on Dynamite Hill and helping guard against danger. Bombing ; Dynamite Hill ; Violence Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 1977 Relationship with Birmingham Police This next question, then, raises another issue. What was the relationship with the community, your community, with the police department? Ms. Drew, Dynamite Hill and the Movement had a tedious relationship with Birmingham Police. She associates the police with the Klan, which were often the same. Bombing ; John Temple Graves ; Post Herald ; Violence Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) 2204 Establishment of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights (ACMHR) In 1956 the State of Alabama outlawed the operation of the NAACP in the state, which resulted in the establishment of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. Ms. Drew describes the first meeting of the Movement and the people who attended. Mrs. Plump ; Sardis Baptist Church Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 2324 Segregated Retail Stores Did you ever go into... I know there were times when Black people would go into certain stores and they were not allowed to try on the hats there. Because Ms. Drew passed as white, she had a particular power when pressuring stores to integrate. Passing ; Segregation Sears, Roebuck and Company 2591 Interracial Women's Group So, really, at the time the Movement started, you and others were really sort of ripe for that because of the things you had gone through. Ms. Drew was a member of an Interracial Women's Group before the movement began. The group prayed and organized to protest segregated stores. Interracial Women's Group ; Restrooms ; Segregation Loveman's ; Pizitz (Department store) 2783 ACMHR, Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) and Dr. Martin Luther King But, tell me about some of the experiences that you had as it related to the Movement. I know that you knew Martin Luther King personally. Ms. Drew recalls the state of the Movement before 1963. ACMHR invited SCLC here after Fred Shuttlesworth was beaten trying to enroll his kids in a white school. Integrated Schools Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 3096 T.M. Alexander and Company Was John able to insure the cars? Ms. Drew's husband, John Drew, insured the cars that made the bus boycott possible. TM Alexander and Company Car Insurance ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 3188 Relationship with Dr. Martin Luther King Well, when Martin King, then, came to Birmingham in 1963, can you tell me any of the occurrences that you may remember that were quite vivid to you in how that portion of the Movement would evolve? Ms. Drew describes her friendship with Dr. Martin Luther King. Friendship King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; N. H. Smith ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 3334 Financial Support of the Movement So, I would assume, then, that, in addition to his staying at your home, you and others similar to you who had businesses actually donated a lot of money to the Movement? Ms. Drew describes how she, her husband and others financially supported the Movement though loans, donations and even putting up their own houses. Donations Bail bond agents ; John Drew 3451 Jeff Drew (Son) and the Movement How was Jeff at the time? Was he in elementary school? Ms. Drew recounts why she and Dr. King did not allow her son Jeff to demonstrate until he was 12 years old. Tom Dolen ; Tom Nolen Jeff Drew ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 3695 Conclusion Is there anything else we have simply not covered that you remember vividly that you think would be important for an oral history project to tell—any other things that I've not asked? Conclusion to the Interview Oral History Deenie Drew discusses leaving New York to work for the Red Cross in Tuskegee. She then moved to Dynamite Hill and joined the movement with her husband, John. They were close family friends with Dr. King. HUNTLEY: Good morning. DREW: Good morning, Dr. Huntley. HUNTLEY: How are you doing? We are here this morning with Ms. Deenie Drew. I am Dr. Horace Huntley with an interview today for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is Friday, January 27, 1995. Dee, thank you for coming out and taking time this morning to sit with us to talk about Birmingham and, really, just life in general. What we are attempting to do at the Institute is really develop sort of the definitive history of Birmingham and how it evolved--how people would come in from various places and make Birmingham today what it is. We, of course would like to do this interview with you today and we are just very grateful that you decided to come out and visit with us this morning. DREW: Thanks for asking me. HUNTLEY: Thank you. I notice that you are not a native Alabamian, so can you just give me just a little of your background? Where are you from, siblings, something about your family-- DREW: Well, I was born and raised in Ardmore, Pennsylvania. Ardmore is part of the main line, seven miles on the outskirts of Philadelphia. I went to school in that area. I lived there most of my life. I can&#039 ; t say most of my life now, can I? The early years of my life. HUNTLEY: The developmental years. What about your siblings? DREW: I have a brother, Jim Baker, who is an attorney here in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: And is Jim younger or older? DREW: Younger. HUNTLEY: He&#039 ; s younger than you. Tell me something about your parents. DREW: Well, the greatest thing about my Dad, I guess, is the fact that he lived to be one hundred and four years old. He was a water boy in the Civil War and he used to tell hair-raising tales about his youth. HUNTLEY: Now, he was born in North Carolina. DREW: Yes, Warren County. HUNTLEY: And how old was he when he left North Carolina? DREW: He was quite a young man. I would say he was between twenty-five and thirty [years old]. HUNTLEY: So, he has told you stories about the Civil War and the period of Reconstruction. DREW: How he traveled around trying to find himself and the many things that he did to make a living, including prize fighting in either Newport News or Norfolk, Virginia. According to him he was a pretty good prizefighter. HUNTLEY: Well, in his story development, tell me, did he give you any indication of what life was like during the latter part of the nineteenth century for a young Black man attempting to make it in this society? DREW: The latter part of the nineteenth century? Do you mean like about 1990? HUNTLEY: No, about the 1890s. DREW: He said it was a very, very confusing time for Black people. Of course they had nothing whatever, although some master, or whatever those people were called, willed his children land or gave land to the children that had been in slavery on their property. HUNTLEY: Was he one of those? DREW: He was among them, and as years went on, that land was non-productive as far as he was concerned. He never made any money with it. It was taken away, I guess--confiscated or something. HUNTLEY: Is that why he would eventually leave North Carolina? DREW: He left North Carolina in a quest for a way to make a living and for a better life. He didn&#039 ; t know where he was going. HUNTLEY: And he ended up in Ardmore, Pennsylvania. DREW: He ended up in Ardmore, Pennsylvania, he says, following a lady, Ms. Joanna. Her last name happened to be Davis, too, but they were not related. HUNTLEY: So, what kind of work did he do in Ardmore? DREW: He was a landscape gardener finally. That&#039 ; s the way he ended his life, gardening. He was great with flowers, at home and for other people too. HUNTLEY: What about your mother? DREW: Well, I can&#039 ; t tell you very much about my mother. My parents met in Ardmore. I was three years old when my mother died and I didn&#039 ; t ever really know her. HUNTLEY: So, then, you were reared by your father. DREW: To be sure. HUNTLEY: Okay. DREW: There was no doubt about it. He was in charge. HUNTLEY: He was in charge. Okay, good. Well, maybe we need more of that kind of rearing today. DREW: I don&#039 ; t know whether young people would take it today or not. HUNTLEY: You left Ardmore after high school and you eventually ended up in New York. Tell me a little about the transition from Ardmore to New York. DREW: Well, I went to New York because I was transferred there. At the secession of hostilities after World War Two, the Signal Corps-- Well, of course, it can&#039 ; t disintegrate, so that&#039 ; s not the word-- HUNTLEY: You worked for the Signal Corps? DREW: I was working for the Signal Corps and they laid off a lot of people. They kept some people and I was among those kept. HUNTLEY: What kind of work were you doing? DREW: Personnel, and they transferred me to the New York office where I continued to do personnel work. HUNTLEY: And, you were there with the Signal Corps in New York for approximately two years or so? DREW: At least. It was so long ago now, I&#039 ; ve sort of forgotten. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about New York. Here is-- Ardmore, I&#039 ; m assuming, is not a-- Well, it&#039 ; s near a metropolitan area, near Philadelphia, but coming from Ardmore to New York City, what type of experience was that? DREW: Well, it wasn&#039 ; t so new to me because I had visited in New York all my life. There&#039 ; s only ninety miles difference. We had a lot of family and friends in New York and I would go to New York as a very small child for at least two weeks every summer. Some times it would be two months, so it wasn&#039 ; t foreign to me at all. Now Ardmore is not a little country town. It&#039 ; s suburban Philadelphia, like you have Mountain Brook here. We had Ardmore, Pennsylvania. HUNTLEY: So it was really not a terribly great transition? DREW: No, no. I knew my way around New York and it moves at a faster pace than Philadelphia or Ardmore and the transition was just almost non-existent. HUNTLEY: New York at that time must have been a pretty exciting place, though? DREW: Oh, yes, it certainly was. For a young Black woman, it was just out of sight. HUNTLEY: What was exciting about it? DREW: The men, the men, the men. The 332nd, the crème-de-la-creme of Black humanity, came back to New York after the end of the war, and they all came to New York when they left Europe. I was fortunate enough to know some of them and, therefore, I met others. It was wonderful to have them back for all reasons. HUNTLEY: What about housing in New York? Where did you live? DREW: I lived on 110th Street. It was very lovely down there right off the park at that time. Now that&#039 ; s considered slum. I had lots of friends and family that lived up in Harlem and Edgecomb, very elegant places up there, and a lot of them are still very, very well kept. These descendents of those people still live there. HUNTLEY: Many of the well-known artists were in New York at the same time. Did you happen to know of those individuals? I believe you mentioned Gordon Parks. DREW: Yes. My cousin was dating Gordon Parks for a while and we used to go with the guy I was dating. We would go out as, what do you call it, a foursome, two couples. HUNTLEY: Double dating? DREW: Double dating, that&#039 ; s the word. You see how antiquated I am. HUNTLEY: Then, you lived in New York. You worked for the Signal Corps, but, then, you made an application to the Red Cross. DREW: Years ago. HUNTLEY: Then, you eventually heard from them. Can you tell me about that story? DREW: Well, I had made application when I was probably eighteen or nineteen years old, at the very beginning, when people were being recruited and making applications for the World War Two positions, and I was too young. You had to be twenty-four [years old] for service in European countries, and, oh, I think in the Philippines or anywhere. But, anyway, I wanted to go to Europe because I had friends in the Red Cross who were in Europe and they were enjoying themselves despite the hazards. They said I was too young. But, somehow my file was not thrown away. It was kept. So many years later they were looking for someone with personnel training and background and here I was, so they sent me a wire and told me to report to Tuskegee in five days. They told me my salary, which was astronomical for those days. They told me that housing was available. I think that I had to pay a very small amount for the housing, but I remember this well: Fifty cents a day I had to pay the VA Hospital for my food. They underwrote the rest of this, but, for some reason, we had to pay fifty cents a day. And I said, &#039 ; A place to live fifty cents a day and they&#039 ; re going to issue me uniforms that I&#039 ; ll have to wear. I&#039 ; ll need no clothes. They&#039 ; re issuing me a car. I can get well down there! So, yes, I&#039 ; ll go for a year.&#039 ; HUNTLEY: What did your friends and relatives have to say about you leaving the East Coast coming to the Deep South? DREW: They said I was a damned fool--that nobody leaves New York to move to Tuskegee. Everybody in Alabama is trying to get out and I&#039 ; m going down there. HUNTLEY: Did that discourage you at all? DREW: It frightened me. It gave me leave... I certainly thought a lot about it. HUNTLEY: What did your dad say? DREW: Oh, my dad was adamant. He thought it was the dumbest thing he had ever heard. He told me that, &#039 ; You were born free.&#039 ; HUNTLEY: You were &#039 ; born free.&#039 ; What does that mean? DREW: Born free? Well, I was born without the shackles of-- I guess he was thinking in terms of slavery, since he had been born in slavery, but I think that&#039 ; s what he meant. HUNTLEY: The assumption then was that you were born free, now you were going back to the South where black folks are not free-- DREW: And be enslaved. That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: He was very concerned about your safety as well. DREW: That was the main thing that concerned him was my safety. He knew that I was an outspoken person and he knew that I was of a strong mind, and he was afraid I wouldn&#039 ; t follow the mores of the South and that I would get myself in very serious trouble. HUNTLEY: Well, how did you get from New York to Tuskegee? DREW: On the train. HUNTLEY: Were there any experiences between New York and Alabama? DREW: Yes. Yes. The conductor... The trains, of course, were segregated, and the conductor was trying to ascertain whether I belonged in the White or the Black part of the train. HUNTLEY: How would they do that? DREW: Well, they&#039 ; d take a flashlight and somehow or another they&#039 ; d say if they can look at the white of your eyes, they can determine what your race is, which they did. But, I didn&#039 ; t move. Fortunately, I was near Notasulga and that was the next stop to Cheehaw. HUNTLEY: Okay, so you were, in fact, in Alabama at the time that this supposed test took place? DREW: Right. HUNTLEY: And you were seated... Were you seated in the Black car? DREW: I don&#039 ; t remember. You know, when we left New York, we changed cars, I think, in Washington. I think it was Washington. HUNTLEY: Right, that would probably be the first. DREW: The Mason-Dixon Line. I really and truly can&#039 ; t remember whether I was already in the Black [car], or whether I was already in the White one, but I can assure you of one thing: I didn&#039 ; t move. HUNTLEY: The conductor actually had a flashlight and he shined it in your eye and he would be able to determine whether you were Black or White? DREW: There were two--the conductor and, I think, the brakeman, he was called. I guess they felt the majority would rule. I guess. HUNTLEY: But you didn&#039 ; t move. DREW: I did not move. I didn&#039 ; t move until they said, &#039 ; Cheehaw.&#039 ; HUNTLEY: Well, tell me, what was the transition like from New York City, urban and really exciting, to a little one-horse town, Tuskegee? DREW: Well, you know, Tuskegee is a one-horse town, that&#039 ; s true, but Tuskegee at that time had just about everything. I had a very ambitious program. The week after I arrived I had to go to Atlanta for training at the Red Cross Training Center for this position of Assistant Field Director. That training took quite a long time. I&#039 ; ve forgotten now whether it was a year, six months, a year and a half, or eight months, but I was in Atlanta for quite a while. But, weekends I would go back to Tuskegee, and there were lots of parties and dances and it was a very social town. I guess because it is sort of isolated and... HUNTLEY: Atlanta or Tuskegee? DREW: Tuskegee. Everybody has do to everything within the confines of this little dry town. Dry. The guys would fly in the whiskey by the crates. People would give them the order, you know, &#039 ; Bring me twenty-four bottles of...&#039 ; and they would fly it in, because the police looked for the cars-- the cabs-- the license tags on automobiles going in and out of Macon County, because they knew that they were probably bringing back alcohol. They would look in the trunks and they would take the whiskey and let you go on. HUNTLEY: You said that these guys would fly the liquor in. What do you mean? DREW: Well, some of them had planes that they would run and some of them... oh, what did they call him? Al-- He was from Ardmore [Pennsylvania], too. He was one of the heads of.... Anderson, Captain Anderson. That&#039 ; s what they called him down there. He&#039 ; s from my town. He and Gert were living there and some of them had access to airplanes or they had them. HUNTLEY: These were associated with the Tuskegee Institute and with the ... DREW: Mitchell Airfield. They would fly all over, either on some kind of mission or for fun or whatever and everybody would give them orders for.... HUNTLEY: So they would bring it back in through the air and there would be no possibility of being stopped on the highway. DREW: Exactly, exactly. We were pretty good at outwitting them, you know. HUNTLEY: Absolutely. Well, tell me. What was your social life like in Tuskegee? DREW: Oh, wonderful. I used to play a lot of cards in those days and I played cards and I went to the parties. You could party every night if you would. You were invited somewhere almost every night. And, as I say, I had a hard work schedule. We set up that operation, Estelle Trenton and me. This was an experimental thing, servicing Veteran&#039 ; s Hospital and ours&#039 ; was the first one in the nation. Where my personnel experience, I guess, came in handy was that we had to recruit these volunteers to work in this service. We went on.Well, we got all the big society ladies first--wives of the presidents of these different institutions, and they helped a lot. Vera Foster helped a lot--Dr. Foster&#039 ; s wife. She was one of my gray ladies. I guess we had a couple of hundred and then we, in turn, trained them and they could do almost everything for a patient that a nurse could do. You know, the VA Hospital was and, I guess, still is a hospital for the mentally impaired and so it took a lot of training to teach them. HUNTLEY: Was any of that time associated with Tuskegee Institute? DREW: No, it was... Well, I don&#039 ; t know how to answer that. I really don&#039 ; t know. You see, there were the three great institutions. There was Tuskegee, of course, first and foremost. Then, the VA Hospital and, then, John A. Andrews Hospital. And to say that they were not connected would be erroneous, but to say that they were... It was sort of like Booker Washington, you know, all fingers on the same hand. HUNTLEY: Is this where you met John Drew? Did you meet John in Tuskegee? DREW: Well, I had met him briefly in New York, but he was great friends with some of my friends, and they had contacted him and told him I was coming and asked him to be sure to look out for me. HUNTLEY: The first time you met John did he sweep you off your feet? DREW: [Shakes her head to indicate &#039 ; No.&#039 ; ] HUNTLEY: He didn&#039 ; t? DREW: No. He did most women. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the first time that you met him. DREW: Well, the first time I met him, he had a bad cold. It was in the Hotel Theresa in New York. He was near pneumonia and that&#039 ; s not a good time to meet anyone. HUNTLEY: You were not very impressed. DREW: I was anything other than impressed. I found him very vulgar. HUNTLEY: When did you and John actually get together? DREW: In Tuskegee. In Tuskegee--after I had been there a while. I don&#039 ; t know, but, anyway, in Tuskegee. HUNTLEY: How long did you live in Tuskegee after you and John met? Did you-- Were you married in Tuskegee? DREW: Married in Philadelphia. I wasn&#039 ; t sure... I still wasn&#039 ; t sure I was going to live in Alabama the rest of my life, and I knew that he would always either be in Alabama or Georgia. He was committed to insuring everybody in Alabama and Georgia. That was his mission in life and I wasn&#039 ; t sure, yet, that I wanted to do that. HUNTLEY: Were you still working with the Red Cross at the time? DREW: No, no. I had left. [Es]Stell had gone to the Orient and I had left. That was enough. HUNTLEY: Then when did you move to Birmingham? DREW: Some time in the 1940&#039 ; s--&#039 ; 49 or something. I lived with, and worked for and with, Mrs. Anderson--Nanette&#039 ; s Homemade Candy. She&#039 ; s a Black woman that had a factory. HUNTLEY: In Tuskegee? DREW: No, right here in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Mrs. Anderson? DREW: Gertrude Anderson. She is one of the unspoken and unheard of people here and I can&#039 ; t understand it. She was the foremost woman here. She had a factory. She supplied chocolates to Loveman&#039 ; s under the name of-- Her name was Nanette Homemade Candies and they would buy her candy and put another box top over it with Loveman&#039 ; s something or other. There were two candy makers here, Mary Ball and... No, there were three, and she ranked up with them. They interchanged things. She had hand-dipped chocolates and so did they. She also sold hard candy. HUNTLEY: Where was the factory located? DREW: At 508 Eleventh Avenue North. The freeway came along and destroyed the whole thing. HUNTLEY: And is that your first job here in Birmingham? DREW: Those months, yes. I opened a candy store on Fourth Avenue between, I guess, between Seventeenth and Eighteenth Street in the same block where Bob Savoy was. That was a bustling area at that time. HUNTLEY: The same block that the famous New Frolic was? DREW: Across the street. HUNTLEY: Okay. This was your candy store and she supplied you with candy. DREW: Yes. HUNTLEY: Okay, well, then, after the freeway came through, is that what ended her business? DREW: No, no. Actually, I got married and her children... Charles was a lawyer. Her children, B.J. and Eleanor, they wanted to take over the business. Charles had left Massachusetts. He re-codified the statutes of Massachusetts. He was a very brilliant guy. In fact, all of them were brilliant. Mrs. Anderson&#039 ; s father built Sixteenth Street [Baptist] Church, Reverend Fisher. Brilliant family. Anyway, they wanted to take it on, but they didn&#039 ; t do well with the business... So often the next generation doesn&#039 ; t do too well. HUNTLEY: How long did you have the candy store? DREW: About a year. HUNTLEY: What did you do after that? DREW: I went back to Philadelphia. HUNTLEY: For how long? DREW: I can&#039 ; t remember these years. I swear I can&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: But, you eventually came back both prior to...? DREW: John came-- John came to New York and we went to St. Simon&#039 ; s Episcopal Church and got married and then we came back. HUNTLEY: Now, when you came back, I&#039 ; m assuming that&#039 ; s in the mid-1950&#039 ; s or so and prior to the development of the Alabama Christian Movement. DREW: I don&#039 ; t remember the date of the... but John and me were there [at the first meeting of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights]. HUNTLEY: Okay, that was in 1956. DREW: Well, I don&#039 ; t know how I happened to be here. Oh, in &#039 ; 56? I was well... I was-- My child had been born by that time. We were at the opening meeting. HUNTLEY: So you were one of the founding members then? DREW: We were there. That&#039 ; s the meeting where Fred Shuttlesworth called Mrs. Plump &#039 ; sweetheart&#039 ; and she stood up and said, &#039 ; I am not your sweetheart,&#039 ; and it almost broke it up. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little bit before we get into the Movement. Tell me what community you lived in at the time. DREW: I&#039 ; ve always lived in the same area. HUNTLEY: What area is that? DREW: Well, I think...Smithfield. HUNTLEY: Smithfield. Is that near the area that&#039 ; s called Dynamite Hill? DREW: I lived on the top of &#039 ; Dynamite Hill&#039 ; , right on the top. HUNTLEY: So, when the freeway came through, that, then, sort of divided that community. DREW: It did, and it took my house and half of my land, and my husband and I decided that we would just build another house up there. HUNTLEY: So, you didn&#039 ; t move out of the community? DREW: We just built another house on the part of the land that they didn&#039 ; t take. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little bit about that community--the make-up of the community. DREW: Well, most all the business and professional men and families in the city lived up there. Virgil Harris, I don&#039 ; t need to name them, but almost all the doctors and lawyers and everybody that made any kind of money had a house up in that area. HUNTLEY: Was this-- When you moved there, was it a Black neighborhood? DREW: Well, the reason, one of the reasons, it&#039 ; s called &#039 ; Dynamite Hill&#039 ; is because we integrated it. The first house I lived in was on First Street, one block away from what is now called &#039 ; Dynamite Hill.&#039 ; It was a brand new little brick house and while John was in Philadelphia marrying me, the Ku Klux Klan came and burned all the doors. They took the doors from inside the house, and I guess... I don&#039 ; t know what that was... I guess because the house was solid brick and not veneered, but they thought that it would probably burn up. So we had to put in brand new doors in the bedrooms and all around the house. HUNTLEY: Burned all of the doors. DREW: Burned the doors. You ever heard of such a dumb thing? HUNTLEY: Inside the house? DREW: Inside. They must have been... I&#039 ; m guessing. I don&#039 ; t know what&#039 ; s in their minds, but they must have expected some kind of an implosion that would have destroyed it. HUNTLEY: Well, how did you react when you came back and saw this? DREW: We were furious! That&#039 ; s how we felt. HUNTLEY: What did you do? Did you report it to the police? DREW: No. We called the builders and ordered some doors and cleaned up the mess. And I went down to Loveman&#039 ; s and Pizitz and those stores and bought beds and chairs and put them in there. It was ours. HUNTLEY: So, they were not running you off. Did you ever think of something like not moving in there? DREW: Never. I had many scary nights and days, but I didn&#039 ; t. My attitude was to fight back. HUNTLEY: What was scary about the nights and days? DREW: Well, almost every night some house was dynamited or burned down. I could stand in my bedroom window and look over to Center Street, one block away. Where I now live there were three three-story houses. Moncrief--a big name still in Birmingham in politics and stuff--the Moncrief&#039 ; s lived in one of them and they torched those three houses. They were largely framed and they burned all three of them down in one night. I&#039 ; ve never seen such a fire in my life. All three houses were up in flames. HUNTLEY: These were Black people that lived in these houses at that time? DREW: Black people were trying to buy property up there. A Mrs. Monk had bought a piece of property down the hill, like about between probably Ninth and Eighth [Streets] or Ninth and Tenth [Streets]. Somehow she had managed-- A Black woman had managed to buy that land and she had begun building and they just kept on harassing her and doing things to her. She lives.Oh, I think she&#039 ; s dead now, but her family still lives there, although the house was never completed. But some ordinance or something must have passed because people were buying property. Dr. Elliot bought some property up there. He was an old dentist here. Arthur Shores bought property. He was living farther down in Smithfield on First Street. But everybody was afraid to build their house, because they knew what was going to happen, you know--that it would be destroyed. HUNTLEY: This next question, then, raises another issue. What was the relationship with the community, your community, with the police department? DREW: Horrible. They despised us. It was absolutely horrible. They were not our friends. HUNTLEY: They didn&#039 ; t come in to protect and serve you. DREW: No. HUNTLEY: How would you characterize it? DREW: Well, let&#039 ; s see. I&#039 ; d go to Shores&#039 ; house. When Shores was building his house, all the men everywhere around in the neighborhood would meet there every night with their arsenal. They would have their own guns and stuff. Leroy Gaylor and BeBe Core and some of the others, they were like vigilantes. They were driving around the area with walkie- talkies in those days and spotting--looking for police, looking for trouble. If they saw anything, they would tell my husband and Shores and all those people, you know, &#039 ; Look out,&#039 ; and they would get the guns ready. HUNTLEY: You mean they were actually on the look out for police. DREW: Right--and Klansmen--policemen that were Klansmen. Either one. We didn&#039 ; t know which was which, because one was the same as the other. HUNTLEY: So the police department and the Klan were very closely associated. DREW: Extremely. It was my belief that all policemen also belonged to the Klan. That was my belief. I don&#039 ; t know that every single one did, but I believed it. HUNTLEY: Would this, then, be one of the reasons that you would get involved with the Movement--that you would be at the first Alabama Christian Movement meeting? DREW: John and me, yes, because they were calling us all the time. When we moved in the little house and-- You wanted to know, well, what did we do? We moved into our house. But, they were calling and saying, &#039 ; Nigger, be out of here,&#039 ; you know, by such and such a time or &#039 ; we&#039 ; re going to come and do so and so.&#039 ; And my husband would say, &#039 ; Well, just come right on. I&#039 ; m ready for you.&#039 ; He would talk back to them. Then I wrote a letter to the [Birmingham] Post Herald in 1957. John Temple Graves was the editor of the paper and somehow or another it touched him and for at least six issues of that paper, Deenie Davis Drew&#039 ; s name was in this, was brought up. It caused a lot of....and my address... HUNTLEY: Your address was printed. DREW: Yes, when I wrote the letter, I didn&#039 ; t know how... I said who I was and [the address] 1112 North First Street. HUNTLEY: What did John have to say about this, your writing letters? DREW: Oh, he proofread it. John was a great grammarian and I&#039 ; m not, and whenever I had to do anything I would always say, &#039 ; Read this,&#039 ; and he would edit. He was proud of me, I think. But, the letter only said that if Birmingham would stop waving the red flag-- If the newspapers and your officials--you would have a pretty good city. That was the gist of it. That they were... The headline was, &#039 ; Deenie Davis Drew of this city says we&#039 ; re waving a red flag.&#039 ; So, that&#039 ; s all I said, [that] if you [newspapers and officials] just stopped doing that, you know, people would get along. HUNTLEY: At that point that was a rather militant statement. DREW: In the early 1950s that was unheard of. HUNTLEY: A revolutionary statement, in fact. DREW: That&#039 ; s right. But, of course, you know I didn&#039 ; t know that. HUNTLEY: In 1956 the State of Alabama outlawed the operation of the NAACP in the state, which resulted in the establishment of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. DREW: Exactly. HUNTLEY: You and John attended the first meeting. Do you remember the first meeting? What was it like, those first meetings that the movement had...the mass meetings that were going on in 1956 and &#039 ; 57? DREW: I think we were in Reverend Alford&#039 ; s church. I&#039 ; m not even sure, but it was somewhere up on Enon Ridge or up that way. Was that where it was, at Sardis [Baptist Church]? HUNTLEY: Sardis, yes Sardis. DREW: I remembered better than I thought. I can&#039 ; t tell you everybody that was there. Mostly it was ministers, but the women like Mrs. Plump and me... HUNTLEY: What was the atmosphere like? You said.... DREW: I don&#039 ; t remember that they had guards. I&#039 ; m sure they did have. HUNTLEY: So Reverend Shuttlesworth made a statement to Mrs. Plump. DREW: Well, we were all putting up-- &#039 ; Who will give a $100 dollars?&#039 ; you know, that kind of thing. You know, you can&#039 ; t operate without money and Mrs. Plump was a very wealthy woman and very interested in doing something about race relations. She and I worked together back before that. She admired Bryant and Mrs. Anderson, Miss Gisgham, all those old... HUNTLEY: All these were Black women? DREW: Yes. Some of them were Black like me and some of them were Black like you. But, we were already going to Burger Phillips and Lovemans and asking them to take down the signs over the water fountains and so forth. HUNTLEY: Did you ever go into... I know there were times when Black people would go into certain stores and they were not allowed to try on the hats there. DREW: Oh, I don&#039 ; t go and put my foot in Sears, Roebuck to this day because of that. I went to Sears, Roebuck with Eleanor Anderson and I had been going in and out of Sears, Roebuck, and Eleanor had a beautiful dress and she had been looking for a hat. I said, &#039 ; There&#039 ; s the hat, Eleanor.&#039 ; I grabbed the hat and she started screaming, &#039 ; Don&#039 ; t do that. Don&#039 ; t do that.&#039 ; I said, &#039 ; Try that hat on, Eleanor. It&#039 ; s just like the one you&#039 ; re looking for.&#039 ; By that time, the sales people were there and they were snatching the hat out of Eleanor and my--out of our hands. And when I found out what it was about, and they gave Eleanor a rag to put on her head and then she could put the hat on, I said, &#039 ; Let us get out of here,&#039 ; and we got out, and until this day I haven&#039 ; t been in Sears, Roebuck. HUNTLEY: You have not been Sears, Roebuck. DREW: No, I haven&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: In forty years. DREW: That&#039 ; s right, and they keep on writing me and telling me that I have an automatic charge account. They can keep it. HUNTLEY: Did you ever go into the places alone and were allowed... DREW: I went everywhere, because I didn&#039 ; t know any better. See? HUNTLEY: Did they simply assume that you were white? DREW: I guess so. They didn&#039 ; t bother me until I went in with somebody who wasn&#039 ; t--you know. I think I told you that story about me in Burger Phillips&#039 ; parking lot. HUNTLEY: No, you didn&#039 ; t tell me. DREW: Well, I had been going in there for years. I usually would go shopping alone because...I still do. And, I would drive up there on Fourth Avenue and the man came out and [said], &#039 ; Good morning, m&#039 ; am,&#039 ; and he gave you a ticket and took your car and put it somewhere and you walked across a ramp, so the White ladies wouldn&#039 ; t get wet, and did your shopping. [You&#039 ; d] come back out and give them the ticket and they&#039 ; d bring you your car, &#039 ; Yes, m&#039 ; am. Yes, m&#039 ; am.&#039 ; I&#039 ; d been doing that for years. Gene Belcher, Doctor Belcher&#039 ; s wife, and Mina, Mina King--her husband&#039 ; s a big surgeon--she was from out of town. She came in town to shop and I picked them up. We were going down to Burger Phillips to shop and we were laughing and happy. I drive up in there like I&#039 ; d been driving up there all along and the boy that&#039 ; s been parking my car, he comes over. I said, &#039 ; Good morning.&#039 ; He looked at them and he asked me what my nationality was. And I said, &#039 ; I&#039 ; m American. So what? Give me the ticket.&#039 ; He runs and gets the boss, the manager, and the boss comes over and he tells me, &#039 ; We don&#039 ; t park colored cars.&#039 ; I said, &#039 ; I see a blue one and a green one and a yellow one. What are you talking about you don&#039 ; t park colored cars?&#039 ; Gene and Mina were just going crazy. They just knew we were going to get lynched or something terrible was going to happen, and I was telling them to shut up and they were [saying], &#039 ; Deenie, please. Please.&#039 ; I said, &#039 ; Let me get to the bottom of this. I don&#039 ; t know what&#039 ; s going on.&#039 ; So, he told me I had to take the car out of there and I said, &#039 ; Just tell me. What you are talking about?&#039 ; Then, I found out that... HUNTLEY: Did you not know what was going on? DREW: I did not know. See, there were a lot of mistakes I made. If I had known, I don&#039 ; t know whether I would have ever gone in there. I just don&#039 ; t know. HUNTLEY: This was not a protest, more or less? DREW: No. That was ignorance on my part, but, then, I did protest mightily. HUNTLEY: Did anything ever come of that? Did you ever make a formal protest to that store? DREW: Oh, I did indeed. I went in there and threatened to cancel my charge account and I stayed out of there a long time. But I didn&#039 ; t cancel, because I loved their stuff...you know, I loved it and I had this house I was furnishing and I had this... I loved it, and I didn&#039 ; t cancel it. I took most of my business elsewhere, but I did not cancel that. HUNTLEY: So, really, at the time the Movement started, you and others were really sort of ripe for that because of the things you had gone through. DREW: And, when we were trying to do something about it. We had an interracial women&#039 ; s group before I married John. HUNTLEY: This was prior to the Movement? DREW: Yes, and they did a lot of praying. That was never exactly my long suit, but I understood why because-- Well, there was a White woman whose name was Tatum, Nora Tatum. I know the last name was Tatum, because it was something about bread. She lived on Fifteenth Street up on The Highland. We couldn&#039 ; t go there for her meeting, when her turn came, until her husband went to work. And so, I guess a needed... The women were scared to death. HUNTLEY: This is Fifteenth Street South? DREW: Yes. You know where Sirote is? Well just another block up. HUNTLEY: What were some of the issues that this interracial women&#039 ; s group...? DREW: We went to... It makes you laugh now. Mostly, we went to stores. I forgot what we called that committee. I was always on it. We&#039 ; d go to the stores and ask them to clean the ladies rooms or furnish... No, the [Black] women had no ladies rooms down there. There were no ladies rooms in those stores. I think... HUNTLEY: Like Loveman&#039 ; s or Pizitz? DREW: I think either Loveman&#039 ; s or Pizitz had one way down in the basement. Now, you&#039 ; re up on the Seventh floor and you need to go and you have to go way down there. I think it was Pizitz that had it in the basement. One of them did. But, most of them didn&#039 ; t have any facilities, and if you took your children-- I used to have to carry a little jar with a screw top on it around for Jeff. Fortunately, he was a little boy and when I would have to bring him downtown to buy shoes or whatever and he had to go to the bathroom.... HUNTLEY: So there were rest areas, rest rooms, for White women? DREW: Oh yes, sure. I&#039 ; ve been in all of them. HUNTLEY: But for the Black women there weren&#039 ; t any? DREW: None. Loveman&#039 ; s probably had the nicest one [for White women]. They had a balcony up there over the first floor and they had a tea room up there, and off the tearoom was a rest room where ladies could go and sit down and chat and if they were tired. Then the toilets and washbasins were set off from that. Very nice. HUNTLEY: But, tell me about some of the experiences that you had as it related to the Movement. I know that you knew Martin Luther King personally. DREW: Very well. HUNTLEY: He would actually spend time at your home. Can you tell us just a bit about how the movement evolved, say, from the beginning of the Alabama Christian Movement until just prior to Dr. King coming to Birmingham in 1963? What was happening? What was taking place? What was the focus of the Movement at that time? Did you have any close relationships with the Movement prior to the big demonstrations of 1963? DREW: I can&#039 ; t... The Alabama Christian Movement invited the SCLC here. At that time, Fred [Shuttlesworth] was zeroing in, I think, on schools. He had children and he was trying to put some of them in Phillips [High School], if my mind serves me right. And he was severely beaten--severely beaten with chains and all manner of things. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. His wife was stabbed in the hip. DREW: Right. That&#039 ; s right. And that caused us to-- You know, those kinds of things just made us livid. I can&#039 ; t tell you, because I can&#039 ; t remember any one specific thing that caused us to invite them [leaders of the SCLC] in. DREW: More than Albany or any of those other places that you could do something, you that something can be done. I just really and truly don&#039 ; t remember what the spark was. You may know. I don&#039 ; t remember. HUNTLEY: Obviously, there was a necessity for the... DREW: We needed help. HUNTLEY: Right. We needed help. But SCLC needed help also, because of the Albany situation... DREW: Failure, or so-called failure-- HUNTLEY: So-called failure, and there was a national meeting, I believe, in some place in Georgia, and there was discussion of what was next. I believe that&#039 ; s where the invitation was given to have the meeting here in Birmingham. When Dr. King came to Birmingham, when did you first meet him? DREW: Oh, I first met him...I guess we had married a year. That must have been about 1951. HUNTLEY: He initially came to Dexter [Avenue Baptist Church] in 1954, I believe. DREW: Yes, in 1954. HUNTLEY: Yes, &#039 ; 54. DREW: Well, then, I guess I met him in &#039 ; 55. When did the bus boycott start? HUNTLEY: Boycott was 1955. DREW: Well, I&#039 ; ll tell you how I met him, and then you can tell me what year it was, because I&#039 ; m not good at remembering years. We had been to Tuskegee to a funeral, John and me. As we were leaving there, John said, &#039 ; Deenie, we&#039 ; re going to stop in Montgomery.&#039 ; He said, &#039 ; There&#039 ; s a little--&#039 ; You know what he said, down there, calling me about getting some insurance on those buses. And he said, &#039 ; I&#039 ; ve got to stop by there and see what he&#039 ; s talking about.&#039 ; He said, &#039 ; I just don&#039 ; t know what we could possibly do, but, anyway, I&#039 ; m going to give him [King] the courtesy.&#039 ; And so, that&#039 ; s when I met him for the first time. HUNTLEY: Yes, that&#039 ; s probably 1955. DREW: All right. HUNTLEY: So then, how did you... I assume that your families then became rather close. DREW: John and his [King&#039 ; s] father were at Morehouse at the same time. His father was quite a bit older, I mean, you know, eight or nine years older than John, but he was late going to college. They were at Morehouse together and as years went on, you know, John worked in New...yeah, he worked in New York, too--but, he worked in Atlanta and down on Sweet Auburn and they renewed all their friendships and ties and stuff, so, John knew his father very well. I guess that&#039 ; s how Mike came to call John is because of the association between his father. HUNTLEY: Was John able to insure the cars? DREW: Oh, yes. Yes. He remembered that T. M. Alexander-- They&#039 ; re the... I always say John was the &#039 ; and Company.&#039 ; Alexander and Company ; T. M. Alexander and Company. Well, T. M. had a line straight to Lloyds of London and on the way, driving, after John found out and, you know, he said, &#039 ; I&#039 ; ve got to help him. I don&#039 ; t care. I&#039 ; ve got to help him.&#039 ; As soon as we got home, he said, &#039 ; You go drive home.&#039 ; He went to the office. Started calling companies and asking, &#039 ; Would you take this? Would you take it?&#039 ; Everybody was saying, &#039 ; No. No. Too risky. Too risky. Too risky.&#039 ; And, so, he said, &#039 ; Well, the only thing I can do is to see if Alex still has that contact with Lloyds.&#039 ; So, he called Alex and Alex did have and so, then, you know, we were all the same company at that time. We did finally buy out--Alabama, but, anyway, they made contact with whomever at Lloyds of London and they said, &#039 ; Okay.&#039 ; They would do this. That&#039 ; s how the bus boycott became successful. HUNTLEY: Right, as a result of John being the intermediary between King and Lloyds of London. DREW: Right, right. HUNTLEY: Well, when Martin King, then, came to Birmingham in 1963, can you tell me any of the occurrences that you may remember that were quite vivid to you in how that portion of the Movement would evolve? I know he came in a number of times prior to...in April-- DREW: Yes, he came and visited us one Saturday--he and Shuttlesworth and Nelson Smith and Abernathy.I can see these men plainly walking down that long drive with these big hats. You know, the men used to wear these big, broad brimmed hats. (laughing) HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. DREW: I don&#039 ; t remember if that was very early in the &#039 ; 50s. I don&#039 ; t remember. I think we struck up a friendship. Of course, with John it was, you know-- He already knew his [King&#039 ; s] parents and all that so well, but I didn&#039 ; t. And they began talking from time to time about the needs and then Mike sat down one day and asked me a lot of the same kind of things you&#039 ; re asking me, you know: &#039 ; Deenie, how did you ever come to this hell hole? This is the hell hole of the world. How did you do this?&#039 ; and blah, blah, blah. HUNTLEY: You called Martin &#039 ; Mike.&#039 ; DREW: Oh yeah, yeah. I think that it was during that time that he said if they came--if they did come here to work, he asked me if he could stay at my house. I said, &#039 ; I&#039 ; d be honored. Sure, yeah.&#039 ; He said, &#039 ; Well, now....&#039 ; I said, &#039 ; I said yes. Whatever it takes.&#039 ; So, that&#039 ; s how come. People would say, &#039 ; Deenie, how did he ever stay at y&#039 ; all&#039 ; s?&#039 ; And I said, &#039 ; Because he asked me.&#039 ; HUNTLEY: He actually asked you if he came would he be able...could he stay with you. DREW: Yeah, because he knew that he was going to need somewhere aside from the hotel. HUNTLEY: So, how often did he come to your house? DREW: Oh, I couldn&#039 ; t possibly tell you that. HUNTLEY: He came many times. DREW: Many, many. He would call any time of the day or night, four o&#039 ; clock or five o&#039 ; clock in the morning--morning, noon or night, you know--and say, &#039 ; I&#039 ; m in Europe&#039 ; or, &#039 ; I&#039 ; m in California and my plane arrives at--.&#039 ; HUNTLEY: So, I would assume, then, that, in addition to his staying at your home, you and others similar to you who had businesses actually donated a lot of money to the Movement? DREW: Yes. YES. (laughing) HUNTLEY: Was this something that...? DREW: We even put up our properties. HUNTLEY: For any particular... DREW: For bail bond. HUNTLEY: Did you lose any of those...? DREW: John had tickets or, you know--(uses her hands to indicate stacks of cards)--He sat out there and all those people in the neighborhood and the Brewers--Doctor Hamp Brewer-- ooh, he had so much property--and they came and brought those tax cards and John would just stack them up, you know, and give them a receipt... No we never lost a penny. HUNTLEY: Do you know of any of the other people that lost money as a result of putting property up, or lost property? DREW: No, no. Now, of course, I would have known if anybody lost property. John pretty much helped... He had his hand in all of the financial dealings. He had his hand in the whole darn thing, if you want to know the truth, but, certainly in the financial dealings. HUNTLEY: John, then, was one of those individuals who, although he was not in the spotlight, he worked behind the scenes. But, in fact, he was part of the negotiations committees? DREW: He was part of it all. There was no part that he wasn&#039 ; t part of. He is not a preacher. I mean, you know, he--didn&#039 ; t do that. HUNTLEY: How was Jeff at the time? Was he in elementary school? DREW: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did he get out of school or participate in any of the demonstrations or anything at that time? DREW: Uncle Mike wouldn&#039 ; t let him. Uncle Mike said, &#039 ; Jeff, if you ever become twelve [years old] I&#039 ; m going to take you to jail with me and you can stay as long as you want to.&#039 ; So, Jeff was like eight, nine, ten or eleven. HUNTLEY: So he would not allow him to until he was twelve. DREW: No. He said if we went, you know Jeff or me or John... They were shooting in our house and dynamiting and here we were heading up this stuff and we were troublemakers and we were all of that. He said there was no telling what would happen to Jeff. It wasn&#039 ; t worth taking the chance. We used to have to hide him. Burke Marshall and Doar, all those people would know when there was going to be a bombing or a shooting or something up there. HUNTLEY: They would know. DREW: Yes, and they would call me. Tom Dolen--Tom Nolen--. There were two of those Toms. One was a Dolen and one was a Nolen, but he would call and say, &#039 ; Mrs. Drew, drive your car onto the back of your lot.&#039 ; You know, we owned half a city lot. &#039 ; Drive it back there near the barn, where the pony used to be. Just take a pillow back there and a blanket and Jeff, because they say they&#039 ; re going to blow up your house tonight, or they&#039 ; re going to bomb it,&#039 ; you know, or something. HUNTLEY: This was, I assume, as a result of a plant that they had within the Ku Klux Klan? DREW: It was Klan. It was Klan and police that-- Sometimes they would form a ring on the corner where Eleventh Avenue and Center Street--that intersection--and they would form a ring around there and there were big streetlights up above and they would shoot out all of those lights. Some of the people were dressed in policeman&#039 ; s clothing. HUNTLEY: So, in fact, they were policemen. DREW: And my house was on that corner. HUNTLEY: That could be very frightening for you and your child. DREW: The night they made Jeff and John lie down on the ground was the worse thing that I ever went through. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. DREW: That&#039 ; s it. There&#039 ; s nothing else to tell you. HUNTLEY: Who made them lie down? DREW: These same characters that I&#039 ; m talking about. How do you know who They are? HUNTLEY: Did they come to the house? DREW: They were on Center Street. I don&#039 ; t know whether they were trying to get down to Shores&#039 ; house or what. I&#039 ; ve forgotten that part of it. There&#039 ; re some things you have to block out. And, they forced them to lie down. I think that&#039 ; s that same night that they killed a man, so if you want to go back and find out all that, you can. There was a man killed out there near Shores&#039 ; house. A bomb went off, so that&#039 ; s when it happened. HUNTLEY: So, John and Jeff, then, did they come to the house, or were they coming in at the time? DREW: John and Jeff? HUNTLEY: Yes. DREW: No, they were out on the walk. We live on Center Street and Shores lives on Center Street. I can&#039 ; t remember to save my soul. I think I blocked that out, but they had them prone and I guess as soon as the things walked away, they jumped up and ran back home. I don&#039 ; t know. I was there, but... HUNTLEY: Some of those things you don&#039 ; t want to remember. DREW: That&#039 ; s right, and I got rid of it. HUNTLEY: Is there anything else we have simply not covered that you remember vividly that you think would be important for an oral history project to tell--any other things that I&#039 ; ve not asked? DREW: I know so many stories. HUNTLEY: There are so many stories. I think what is important is that you have really given us an idea of how you came into the city, the kinds of things that you encountered that led you to get--to really be adamantly involved with the movement, and how important your family was for the movement. That is so vitally important and I certainly appreciate your taking the time out to talk with us about that. DREW: Well, if you want to know anything else, you are going to have to ask me specifically, because lots of things I have forgotten and lots of things I have made myself forget. HUNTLEY: Right. What I will do, I will... We are going to go through this material and I will probably call you and we will probably do this again some time, but I just want to thank you for coming today. DREW: Well, you are more than welcome. More than welcome. I&#039 ; m sorry that... I&#039 ; m really sorry that you didn&#039 ; t start doing these things while John was alive, because he could have told you so much more. He blocked out a lot of things and we would sit down talking some time and he&#039 ; d say, &#039 ; Deenie,&#039 ; you know, &#039 ; Tell me what I did,&#039 ; you know--a lot of fun things and a lot of bad things, because I would tease until the end about he and Sid Smyer taking their coats off to fight. I have to find that letter that Mr. Smyer wrote him. HUNTLEY: We hope that if you have any kinds of materials that you would like to present to us, you will. DREW: You see, they burned up the barn... When they took the house, we stored in the barn all manner of things that we didn&#039 ; t think we&#039 ; d need while the new house was being built. HUNTLEY: And that was burned. DREW: All kind of papers and things you know, that we.... We just had papers and things. We just had a ram full of Christmas decorations, you know--things that, you know, &#039 ; Oh, I don&#039 ; t need these,&#039 ; and darned if they didn&#039 ; t walk. After we had moved out, somebody called and said, &#039 ; You&#039 ; ve got another fire. Your barn&#039 ; s on fire.&#039 ; And, we got up there and it was burned to the ground and, of course, everything in it was burned--was burned to the ground. So, we lost a lot of stuff as a result of that. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=DDrew1995.xml DDrew1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Deenie Drew Description An account of the resource Deenie Drew discusses leaving New York to work for the Red Cross in Tuskegee. She then moved to Dynamite Hill and joined the movement with her husband, John. They were close family friends with Dr. King. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950127D Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-01-27 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/ec0b4588ca1d7a4afb9c5d07174b8945.jpg 9c7ee53d9ded41599bc37da59a881760 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Doris B. Thompkins OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=DBThompkins1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Kelly Ingram Park--Birmingham (Ala.) OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 April 7, 1995 Doris B. Thompkins Interviewed on April 7, 1995 19950407T 0:37:34 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham National Association for the Advancement of Colored People Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) Kelly Ingram Park--Birmingham (Ala.) Doris B. Thompkins Horace Huntley Video 1:|1(2)|18(3)|38(12)|54(1)|74(6)|97(10)|110(3)|126(9)|139(7)|163(12)|174(6)|188(5)|202(4)|213(13)|231(1)|244(13)|270(11)|285(5)|298(6)|310(6)|329(12)|346(6)|365(9)|382(1)|403(15)|423(14)|442(3)|467(6)|484(15)|503(7)|524(5)|537(4)|558(1)|575(7)|594(12)|609(14)|622(3) 0 https://youtu.be/4dPrI7CEIPU YouTube video English 69 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Doris B. Thompkins for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. This is April 7, 1995 and I would like to thank you Mrs. Thompkins for coming out -- taking time out of your busy schedule to sit with us this morning to talk about Birmingham and the Movement. Welcome. Doris Thompkins is introduced. 33.4810, -86.9089 17 Miles College 33.5161, -86.8145 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 99 Family Background I would like to just start by asking some background questions. Where were your parents from? Doris Thompkins talks about her family and what her parents did as a living to support her and her siblings. Construction ; Maid Jefferson County (Ala.) ; Marengo County (Ala.) 260 Early Education Right. Tell me about your education. Where did you start elementary school? Doris Thompkins explains where she did her primary education growing up. Cameron Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 318 Attending College for Christian Education I see. What did you do after high school? Doris Thompkins talks about attending a few colleges in order to obtain her degree in teaching Christian education. Charm school ; Christian Education Birmingham Baptist College (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Burroughs, Nannie Helen, 1879-1961 ; Daniel Payne College (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Nannie Helen Burroughs School (Washington D.C.) 483 Working for the Birmingham Board of Education What school did you teach at in the Birmingham system? Doris Thompkins talks about working for the Birmingham Board of Education. Elementary School Education Birmingham Board of Education (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 514 Community Background What community did you live in? Doris Thompkins explains what it was like growing up in the Birmingham community of Southside as a kid. Construction ; Desegregation ; Octagon Soap Neighborhood watch programs ; Southside (Birmingham, Ala.) 889 Relationship with Birmingham Police Department What was your community's relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? Doris Thompkins explains how the relationship with the Birmingham Police Department wasn't always the most trustworthy. Distrust ; Scare Tactics Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Civil Rights Movement--Birmingham, Ala. 982 Involvement with The NAACP Were you a member of the NAACP prior to it being outlawed from operating in the State of Alabama? Doris Thompkins talks about her role with the NAACP. Member Campaigns ; Voter Registration National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 1034 The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights The NAACP was outlawed from operating in the State of Alabama in 1956. That basically left a void. But something happened at that point that would fill that void. Can you tell me about the development of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. Doris Thompkins explains how once the NAACP was outlawed that Rev. Shuttlesworth began the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. Demonstrations--United States ; Jail ; Mass Meetings Patterson, John ; Sardis Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; The National Association for The Advancement of Colored People 1143 1st Time Going to Jail Tell me about the first time that you went to jail. Doris Thompkins explains how she went to jail for sitting in the front of the bus on the way to her destination, spending 5 days in jail. Jail ; Mass Meetings ; Public Transportation--Desegregation--Birmingham (Ala.) Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Ensley (Birmingham, Ala.) ; The Daily World 1293 Attending Mass Meetings of the ACMHR Can you then describe to me what a typical mass meeting was like? Doris Thompskins explains going to the mass meetings at the Alabama Christian Movement and how sometimes word would get out about the members, causing them to lose their jobs. Mass Meetings ; Police Officers Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1474 2nd Time Going to Jail What was the circumstances of the second time that you were arrested? Doris Thompkins talks about being detained at a department store in Birmingham for speaking to a white customer, calling it the 2nd time she got arrested. Interrogations ; Public Urination J.J. Newberry's (Birmingham, Ala.) 1660 Family Involvement in the Movement Did others in your family participate in the Movement? Doris Thompkins talks about her niece's involvement in the movement, as well as the support from her family. Marching Civil Rights Movement--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Fair Park (Birmingham, Ala.) 1788 Church Involvement in The Movement What was the level of involvement of your pastor and your church? Doris Thompkins talks about her church being with her most of the way through the movement. New Pilgrim Baptist Church Church--Civil Rights Movement--Birmingham (Ala.) 1822 Benefits From The Movement What benefits did you, your family, your community realize as a result of the Movement? Doris Thompkins discusses the benefits of the movement, such as better interracial communication. Civil RIghts Movement--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Communication--Blacks and Whites ; God 1934 Demonstrating After The 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing Doris Thompkins talks about marching in the streets after the 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing in Birmingham, Alabama. Fire Hoses ; Police Brutality ; Police Dogs ; Water Hoses 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement--Demonstrations--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Kelly Ingram Park--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Memorial Park--Birmingham (Ala.) 2114 Trusting in God Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with relating to your activity in the Civil Rights Movement? Doris Thompkins explains that the way to continue to move forward is with trust in God. Faith and ideology King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 2200 Conclusion of Interview Well, I want to thank you for taking the time again Mrs. Thompkins to just give us information that you have because what we are attempting to do is to gather information from individuals who were actively involved like yourself so that information can be housed at the Civil Rights Institute. And I just want to thank you again for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit with us this morning. Thank you. Interview is concluded. Oral History Doris B. Thompkins discusses growing up on the Southside before getting involved with the Movement. She was a member of the NAACP prior to it being banned and she was arrested twice for demonstrating. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Doris B. Thompkins for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. This is April 7, 1995 and I would like to thank you Mrs. Thompkins for coming out -- taking time out of your busy schedule to sit with us this morning to talk about Birmingham and the Movement. Welcome. I would like to just start by asking some background questions. Where were your parents from? THOMPKINS: Marengo and Jefferson County -- they&#039 ; re from Marengo and Jefferson County. HUNTLEY: Your mother is from -- THOMPKINS: My mother is from Jefferson County. HUNTLEY: And your father is from Marengo County? THOMPKINS: Marengo County. HUNTLEY: Well, were you born here in Jefferson County? THOMPKINS: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? THOMPKINS: I have five sisters and one brother. HUNTLEY: And you are -- how are you in terms of number? Where were you listed? THOMPKINS: I am the second oldest child. HUNTLEY: Second oldest child. Tell me just a bit about your parents -- the time they spent in school and the occupations that they had. THOMPKINS: Well, at their time going to school, as it was in many cases, they didn&#039 ; t get as far at school as they would have like to have done due to circumstantial evidences where they maybe had to come out and work and different things of that nature where it has been true in many Afro-American families. HUNTLEY: Sure. Yes. I remember my grandmother. She couldn&#039 ; t read nor write, but she&#039 ; s the smartest person I&#039 ; ve ever known. But, she was basically sort of my mentor, so we raise the question about education and there are a lot of ways that you can be educated. What about your parents&#039 ; occupations? Did your mother work outside of the home? THOMPKINS: She did. She worked outside of the home and they both were what we called, at that time, common laborers. HUNTLEY: Do you remember what companies they worked for? THOMPKINS: No. I know my father did construction work. That was, various different companies. My mother was doing what we now call a housekeeper. At that time they called it maid work or domestic work. And so that was for different people. I couldn&#039 ; t remember just how many different places. But she stayed pretty well in one job a long period of time. HUNTLEY: And in addition to raising a number of children as well, she had two jobs. THOMPKINS: She had two jobs. Full-time homemaker and then she worked outside the house. HUNTLEY: Right. Tell me about your education. Where did you start elementary school? THOMPKINS: I started and finished elementary school at the then Cameron Elementary School. Dr. Noah E. Wills was the principal and Mrs. Lucille Boyd and Mrs. Christianita D. Carnes were my favorite teachers. HUNTLEY: And you went from first through eighth grade? THOMPKINS: First through eighth grade at Cameron. HUNTLEY: Then where did you go from there? THOMPKINS: Then I left Cameron and I went to Ullman High School. The late Mr. George C. Bell was the principal. HUNTLEY: Did you finish? Did you graduate from Ullman? THOMPKINS: Ullman was then a junior high school. I did finish and I went to Parker. HUNTLEY: And that is where you finished high school? THOMPKINS: Yes. I went to Ullman 9th and 10th grade and 11th and 12th grades at Parker. HUNTLEY: I see. What did you do after high school? THOMPKINS: After high school I went to the Birmingham Baptist College. It is now known as the Birmingham Easonian Baptist Bible College and I stayed there about four years. I finished there and I went back -- I was in and out of school all of my life. HUNTLEY: Were you preparing for the ministry there? THOMPKINS: No. I was preparing for missionary work and Christian education. HUNTLEY: What did you do after you finished at the bible school? THOMPKINS: After I finished the bible school I went to Nannie Helen Burroughs School in Washington, D.C. I went then to Daniel Payne College and back to the bible college twice. HUNTLEY: How did you happen to decide upon going to D.C. and to Miss Burroughs&#039 ; school? THOMPKINS: I have a god-mother, Mrs. Emolyn Reese who was very instrumental. She was my mentor in Christian education and she was very instrumental in me going to Nannie Helen Burroughs&#039 ; school. The late Mrs. Corinne Watts was the youth director at that time and I was always active in the church work and very civic in other organizations. So, at her suggestion and her assistance, I enrolled in the Nannie Helen Burroughs School with a scholarship. HUNTLEY: Did you meet or know Mrs. Burroughs? Did you get to work with her? THOMPKINS: The late Nannie Helen Burroughs? HUNTLEY: Yes. THOMPKINS: Yes. I met and work for and with Mrs. Burroughs. Mrs. Burroughs, and I count it a blessing to have known her. She was an inspiration to all those who knew and worked with her and for her. HUNTLEY: Obviously she is very, very well known as an educator throughout the country and she obviously has been an inspiration to you. What was next after D.C. and the Burroughs&#039 ; school? THOMPKINS: After D.C. I came back and I finished Daniel Payne. I went to charm and modeling school while I was working. I taught school five days a week. At charm school on Saturday and model with my students when and wherever they worked. HUNTLEY: What school did you teach at in the Birmingham system? THOMPKINS: I would be on the safe side if I said I worked for the Birmingham Board of Education because we were moved about as they saw fit to move us. During the civil rights institution, if you were identified any with, you were lucky to have been working anywhere. HUNTLEY: Well, did you teach elementary school or high school? THOMPKINS: I taught elementary school. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in? THOMPKINS: I lived on the Southside of Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Was that where you were born and reared -- on the Southside? THOMPKINS: I was born and reared on the Southside of Birmingham in various communities. HUNTLEY: How would you describe your community that you lived in? THOMPKINS: The community that I remember mostly in my growing up had an outside toilet, the whole neighborhood used one toilet and the whole neighborhood kept the toilet clean. We had outside water -- there was no hot and cold water. We had a No. 2 and No. 3 bathing tin tubs. There was no such thing as a bathtub. You used one of those wash tubs as your bathtub. There was no such thing as Ivory soap and all this nice soap we know now. We took a bath with Octagon soap. You did primarily everything with Octagon soap. HUNTLEY: What&#039 ; s Octagon soap? THOMPKINS: Octagon soap. HUNTLEY: Yes. What kind of soap is that? THOMPKINS: It&#039 ; s a -- was a long bar of soap about twice the size of two bars of Ivory now. It&#039 ; s a yellow type of soap. We washed our clothes in Ivory soap because there were no washing machines. You heated your water on the stove after you made a fire in the stove with the kindling and paper and coal that we had to go outside and get because there were no boys in my family -- the last one was a boy. Therefore, the girls had to get in coal. What we used for -- to get the coal in was a called scuttle. It is something like a little foot tub. We had to get in so many scuttles of coal. We had to cut wood and we got up the next morning -- there was no gas to turn on. You had to make the wood, make the fire, strike a match and after the fire was made, you had to give the time for the stove to get hot, then you heated your water and took your bath. Then, you had to also have to have a fire made in the stove while your water was getting hot here, the stove had to get hot so the oven could be ready for you to make your bread and whatever you were going to cook for that day. HUNTLEY: What about the various occupations of individuals that lived in your community. What kind of occupations did they have? THOMPKINS: Mostly people in our -- in my community were housekeepers or maids as they were called then. Some of them worked at schools. They were custodians at school. They were called maids at that time. We didn&#039 ; t have upgraded titles as we know them now. You were a maid. There were certain jobs that were designated for a Black. If you were a Black, you knew you were not going to answer a telephone. That was a no-no. You knew you were not going to drive a bus. That was a no-no. Yet, we had many people capable of doing these things, but because we were fighting desegregation and his eagles, we were not allowed to do these particular things. So, you had certain jobs that you knew that were for Afro-Americans or Blacks. THOMPKINS: You washed dishes in the cafeteria. You did maid work all over buildings and homes. You made the labor work or construction work. You never were a supervisor. That was a no-no. We all did what we would consider now underdog work. HUNTLEY: What about recreation in your community? THOMPKINS: Well, recreation in the community was very limited. We made our toys. We made our dolls out of Coca-Cola bottles with some ice strings because we had no refrigerators. You had ice that you put a burlap sack around to keep your meats and things cold. So we would take the ice strings after the ice was placed in the proper place and put the strings in the Coca-Cola bottle and these were our dolls. THOMPKINS: We played baseball, volleyball and the other recreation games that I particularly liked in our community. I took part in the games at school. We had a lot of games at school. The late Mrs. Boyd taught us Physical Ed when there was not a required course in Physical Ed. She just was gifted and dedicated enough to know that we needed this so she saw to us having these games to permit us to develop in such a manner as we should using physical education activities. HUNTLEY: As a grown-up in your communities, what kind of organizations do you remember were organized in the communities? THOMPKINS: As a grown-up, you mean the communities that I lived in? HUNTLEY: That you lived in, yes. As an adult? THOMPKINS: There was no such organization as we know it now. We had then what they called Neighborhood Watch. We wasn&#039 ; t organized as such but we just watched out for each other. You left your doors open and went on to the store or wherever you had to go. The other neighbors just watched out for you. But, there were no organized groups as we know them now. HUNTLEY: What was your community&#039 ; s relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? THOMPKINS: At that time, the Birmingham Police Department from individual policemen had very good rapport with the community. But most of them, at that time, there was very little communication that they wanted certain things done they would have to send Officer X or Officer Y or else the community wouldn&#039 ; t talk to anybody else. They didn&#039 ; t have the confidence in the rest of them. HUNTLEY: So did the community look at the police department as being there to protect and serve the community? THOMPKINS: Not necessarily so. In some instances, as I said it depended on the officer. But as a whole, they sort of looked to them to protect them. But, not as they do now or not as we thought they should have done. Because they were not as close. The policeman was looked upon as a -- if somebody coming through here -- oh, oh, here come the policeman-- you just knew to get out the way. Because the way they do -- they would come in the manner, you know, frightening so the people were afraid. But once they met one or two and learned and talk with those one or two, then they would relate to those. HUNTLEY: I know that you were actively involved with the Civil Rights Movement. THOMPKINS: Excuse me? HUNTLEY: You were actively involved with the Civil Rights Movement. THOMPKINS: Very much so. HUNTLEY: Were you a member of the NAACP prior to it being outlawed from operating in the State of Alabama? THOMPKINS: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: What kind of activities were you involved with the NAACP? THOMPKINS: Membership campaign and whatever the headquarters in New York would designate for me to do in that area. HUNTLEY: Were you ever involved in voter registration drives? THOMPKINS: I was. HUNTLEY: Do you remember when you went to apply to become a registered voter? THOMPKINS: When I went to apply to be a registered voter things had simmered down a little bit then. I didn&#039 ; t have any problems. HUNTLEY: No problems at that time. THOMPKINS: No problems. HUNTLEY: The NAACP was outlawed from operating in the State of Alabama in 1956. That basically left a void. But something happened at that point that would fill that void. Can you tell me about the development of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights.THOMPKINS: After the NAACP was no longer operating in the State of Alabama, as outlawed by the then governor, John Patterson, Dr. Fred Shuttles worth became very upset over this. He, along with other persons whom he talked with, became very seriously -- Shuttles worth became very seriously upset about this. So he said at that point, we need to do something. Something has to be done. We have nobody to speak for us. We are not strong enough to speak individually, so something needs to be done. At that time he called the group of people together at the then Sardis Baptist Church on Enon Ridge and organized the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. He said he was naming it the Human Rights so this would include everybody because he realized we were not the only ones who had been oppressed. HUNTLEY: You were relatively a young person at the time -- in your early twenties. What role did you play in the initial organization of the Alabama Christian Movement? THOMPKINS: I attended the mass meetings. I marched and I went to jail. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the first time that you went to jail. THOMPKINS: The first time I went to jail we were in the process of desegregating public riding facilities, or public transportation rather. I was sitting on the bus reading my Daily Word, minding my very own business and I had to go to Ensley. I boarded the bus on Second Avenue and 19th Street downtown. Instead of taking us to where I had originally decided to go, the bus driver carried myself and all those who were on the bus straight to the transit company car bond. There we were met by the paddy wagons and hauled off to jail. HUNTLEY: Were all of those people that were on the bus, were they all demonstrating? THOMPKINS: The whole bus went to jail. HUNTLEY: But were all of those organized to demonstrate that day on the bus? THOMPKINS: Yes, apparently they were because nobody resented being gone wherever the bus went. Nobody got off or asked to be let off before that time. HUNTLEY: How long did you stay in jail? THOMPKINS: I stayed in jail five days without visitation. HUNTLEY: Five days without visitation. THOMPKINS: Not even the church could send us anything that we needed. The only way we got help there was one of the young ladies with us, Miss Annie Berkley was with us at that time. She made friends with one of the trustees and when we needed something, he would get word to our church how we were doing. Otherwise that&#039 ; s the only way they would know that we were all right. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me -- we know that you were one of those initial individuals that started the Alabama Christian Movement. You were among the group. A young person. Were you at the initial meeting of the Alabama Christian Movement? THOMPKINS: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: Then you probably attended many, many mass meetings? THOMPKINS: Yes, I did. HUNTLEY: Can you then describe to me what a typical mass meeting was like? THOMPKINS: In our mass meetings, we discussed many things that we were planning to do. But we had learned that everything we discussed in some of the meetings were getting back to the wrong people. So, consequently, there were some things at meetings that were not discussed publicly. They were only known by our authoritative people, Rev. Shuttles worth, Dr. Smith and Mr. Robey and all the secretaries at that time. Those people knew and they would not publicly tell us what they were going to do. If they wanted you to do something, they would get you otherwise to keep it from getting out what we were going to do-- word got blocked because it got to the wrong people at the wrong time. HUNTLEY: Who were the wrong people? THOMPKINS: The oppressors. HUNTLEY: It&#039 ; s my understanding that there were police officers that were present at the meetings. THOMPKINS: There were, many times. HUNTLEY: Is that the way that the word would get back to the wrong people? THOMPKINS: Seemingly some of it would get back that way. But then, some of it got through by some of those attending the meetings because the police officer was not a housekeeper, he was not a maid. Yet, when some of the maids got to work the next day, many of them were fired because they learned they had been to a meeting. Just fired on the spot because they knew they had been to a mass meeting. HUNTLEY: So it was rather difficult for those who were working then, for White people to attend the meetings because they were subject to being dismissed? THOMPKINS: It was just as hard for all the Whites as it was for the Blacks. It was even harder for the well thinking White people who wanted things to be resolved. Many of them we found wanted things to be resolved but they were afraid because they were being harassed as much as we were. HUNTLEY: Were there Whites attending the mass meetings? THOMPKINS: Very few but some were. Some just came out the closet and just came on to the meetings and like we see them doing now -- ignore them and just came on. As Mrs. Liuzzo, the lady that was killed. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s Viola THOMPKINS: Viola, right. Some of them just came on out anyway and risk their lives as well as we did ours because they said it had to be done. We realized that somebody had to start, so we didn&#039 ; t mind it. HUNTLEY: You described now the first time that you went to jail. How many times were you arrested? THOMPKINS: I was arrested two times. HUNTLEY: What was the circumstances of the second time that you were arrested? THOMPKINS: The second time I was in a department store downtown. HUNTLEY: Which department store? THOMPKINS: J. J. Newberry&#039 ; s. A young man came in to buy some records and I was browsing around for earrings and things the ladies like, but I had to pass by him to get what I needed. He was getting ready to go out the door and I heard him ask for the record and I said to him &quot ; have you tried Shelley the Playboy&#039 ; s Record Mart? You might find the record there.&quot ; Immediately I was hauled off into one room with no doors out, just the one room. HUNTLEY: Who took you to that room? THOMPKINS: The store security who was dressed in plain clothes. HUNTLEY: And what was the purpose, why did he take you to that room? THOMPKINS: He took me because she said I was telling the young man to go to Shelley &quot ; The Playboy&#039 ; s&quot ; Record Mart and buy his record -- don&#039 ; t buy his records there. Any little thing that you said they took it out of context and took it the way they want it to be and made it to be what they want it to do and arrest you. HUNTLEY: So what happened in the room? THOMPKINS: What happened in the room? They made me sign an affidavit that I would never be seen in that store anymore under any circumstances for any purpose. If so, I would immediately be arrested and may not be allowed bond. HUNTLEY: So you were then not arrested, you were detained in the room. Were you taken on to jail? THOMPKINS: No. I was not taken on to jail, but I consider that as an arrest because she made me sign things that I did not want to sign and there was only one way out of the room and she had to let me out and that was the only way I was going to get out. I did ask to go to the restroom while I was in there and she would not even let me out to use the restroom. So, this doesn&#039 ; t sound very pretty, but she didn&#039 ; t let me use the restroom so she had a waste basket there so I made a restroom out of it right in front of her -- because I really had to go. HUNTLEY: She was the only person -- THOMPKINS: It was all ladies in there but they could have followed me, if necessary, you know to go to the restrooms and let me go and discharge properly but they wouldn&#039 ; t and I could not hold it. I kept saying to her I had to go and I explained the condition to her and so she -- I said &quot ; you may go with me, come go with me.&quot ; She wouldn&#039 ; t go with me, she wouldn&#039 ; t let me out. So I just could not wait and I told her &quot ; now I dread doing this, because I think more of myself than this, but now this is something you have no control over. You won&#039 ; t let me go, so here goes.&quot ; And I let go. HUNTLEY: Did you ever go back to Newberry&#039 ; s after that? THOMPKINS: No, I did not. HUNTLEY: Have you been back to Newberry&#039 ; s since that event? THOMPKINS: No, I have not. HUNTLEY: Well, Newberry&#039 ; s is about to close now I believe, so I guess you probably never will get that chance again. THOMPKINS: Thank God they are. HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate in the Movement? THOMPKINS: Yes. I had a niece to -- I had a niece that did. HUNTLEY: How active was she? THOMPKINS: Very active. She was with the group of young people that were arrested to go to Fair Park. When they took them to Fair Park those young people raised so much sand, they said that we did not march to go to Fair Park we want to go to jail with everybody else. They kept telling them the jail was crowded. They said &quot ; well we didn&#039 ; t march to go to Fair Park.&quot ; So they had to end up taking those young people to the overcrowded jail as it was. They would not rest. They said, &quot ; we marched to go to jail. We want to go to jail where everybody else is.&quot ; HUNTLEY: So they didn&#039 ; t consider Fair Park as being jail? THOMPKINS: Right. But they took them to jail when they got through with them. They were glad to take them to jail. HUNTLEY: How did other family members of yours react to your participation? THOMPKINS: I don&#039 ; t think they were -- I don&#039 ; t think the family members were too surprised because they know that I have always stood by my convictions. I might not always be right but they knew I have always stood by my own convictions -- that nobody pushes me into anything but if I decide this is what I want to do, then I just might do that. They weren&#039 ; t surprised and they did not know where I was. And I was asked if your family knew where you were. And I said &quot ; no, but they&#039 ; ll know it when they see the 5:00 o&#039 ; clock news.&quot ; And that&#039 ; s when they knew I was in jail. They weren&#039 ; t worried about me then. HUNTLEY: Did other brothers and sisters ever participate? THOMPKINS: No. HUNTLEY: So, you were sort of the lone one that decided to participate in the movement. What church were you a member of? THOMPKINS: New Pilgrim Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: What was the level of involvement of your pastor and your church? THOMPKINS: My pastor and my church was very much involved as much as I was. The pastor was very much involved. The church, I&#039 ; d say was about 80% because there was still those who did not. Well the church was totally involved because those who didn&#039 ; t march they supported us. HUNTLEY: Who was your pastor? THOMPKINS: Dr. Nelson H. Smith, Jr. HUNTLEY: And he was quite actively involved so he sort of set the example then for the rest of the church, I assume? THOMPKINS: Right. HUNTLEY: What benefits did you, your family, your community realize as a result of the Movement? THOMPKINS: We have realized the things that a family, myself and others are enjoying today. We have enjoyed the communications. There are better communication between Black, White and other minority groups. They look upon you now for who you are and not the color or your skin, more or less. We still have some diehards out there and that&#039 ; s what they are &quot ; die hards&quot ; and that&#039 ; s what they are going to do &quot ; die hard.&quot ; Because they refuse to let God in their lives and realize that all blood is red and out of one blood came all nations. So we have realized the things that we are enjoying now and there is more to come. HUNTLEY: So you would suggest that the Movement then was, in fact, a success? THOMPKINS: The Movement is a success but not as much as I&#039 ; d like to see it be. Because the Movement is still moving, but we need some more of the kids moving with us. If our young people come on later, they seem to take these things for granted that they are enjoying. That it&#039 ; s always been this way, but it has not always been this way and if they don&#039 ; t get on the bandwagon and help us keep moving, they will be back where we are talking about. They are trying to move back fast, but those people who see the things as we see them and are willing to put God with them, God in front, God behind and God on each side and walk right on through, they can accomplish much. Because He has overcome the world and we can accomplish things much in His strength. HUNTLEY: Let me back up just a minute and just ask you about the demonstrations in &#039 ; 63. The mass demonstrations from April and May of 1963. Were you still actively involved at that time? THOMPKINS: April and May of &#039 ; 63? HUNTLEY: Yes. THOMPKINS: I certainly was. That&#039 ; s when Sixteenth Street Church was bombed. HUNTLEY: Yes. That was right after. THOMPKINS: I didn&#039 ; t get in the bombing, but I was somewhere else marching. I think we were marching towards, if I&#039 ; m not sure. There was a group of us marching towards Sixteenth Street because I think we had marched all over town and we might have been getting ready to go to a meeting or something during that time just before that Sunday that the church was bombed. But, I was somewhere marching, I remember that much. HUNTLEY: The church was bombed in September. The big demonstrations were in April and the children, of course, got involved in May -- the first few days of May. This is when the water hoses and the police dogs and Bull Conner came out. What do you remember about that? THOMPKINS: I remember leaving the 9th Street site from 6th Avenue of our church where it was located then. We were walking to Fair Park -- I mean to Memorial Park and as we were approaching Memorial Park that&#039 ; s where we met Bull Conner and the fire hoses and the water. HUNTLEY: What happened? THOMPKINS: We got wet and almost blown away from the force of the water. HUNTLEY: Were you, at that point, in a position where you actually got wet and were you not arrested at that time? THOMPKINS: Yes. They took you wet, dry, they didn&#039 ; t care how you were. Just so they got us to jail, they didn&#039 ; t care. HUNTLEY: Then the marching on the Southside, in Memorial Park, that&#039 ; s one of those that&#039 ; s very popularly know and people talk about that one all the time. Were you involved in any of the demonstrations downtown in Kelley Ingram Park -- THOMPKINS: All of those. HUNTLEY: -- between 16th Street? THOMPKINS: All of those that I can remember were predominately downtown in that area. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about those? THOMPKINS: I remember that the park was very nasty. It was not well kept as it is now because nobody cared. We were just there they didn&#039 ; t care whether we kept it up or not. And when we got to Kelley Ingram Park many of our meetings were held at the Sixteenth Street Church and when it was hot, we were out in the park. Many of the meetings were outdoors. HUNTLEY: Meetings in the park? THOMPKINS: In the park. HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with relating to your activity in the Civil Rights Movement? THOMPKINS: Yes. I think that it cannot be over stressed or over emphasized to our young people that there is a need for you to keep trusting God, put God first and keep moving because there&#039 ; s nothing out here in the streets shooting up everybody and all these things we say and we say we are fighting for civil rights. No. This is not Dr. King&#039 ; s dream and this is not the way. The way is plain and simple. We&#039 ; ve got to love everybody. We&#039 ; ve got to love everybody regardless of race, creed or color and we&#039 ; ve got to move together in unity. And our Black young people have got to stop doing things to each other and start looking up and have to want to do. If they want something with God&#039 ; s, help they can do it. We&#039 ; ve got to get a new lease on self-image and we&#039 ; ve got to re-evaluate ourselves and put our priorities in the right place. And I think with this, the Movement will still be moving. HUNTLEY: Well, I want to thank you for taking the time again Mrs. Thompkins to just give us information that you have because what we are attempting to do is to gather information from individuals who were actively involved like yourself so that information can be housed at the Civil Rights Institute. And I just want to thank you again for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit with us this morning. Thank you. THOMPKINS: Thank you very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=DBThompkins1995.xml DBThompkins1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Doris B. Thompkins Description An account of the resource Doris B. Thompkins discusses growing up on the Southside before getting involved with the Movement. She was a member of the NAACP prior to it being banned and she was arrested twice for demonstrating. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950407T Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham National Association for the Advancement of Colored People Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Bull Conner--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-04-07 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/3d81a8d99b8c2b600f410505a6a89651.jpg b445ac47fbf90be6aa418adcf358f68d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dorothy Cotton OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=DCotton1999.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Voter Education Project (Southern Regional Council) OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 April 22, 1999 Dorothy Cotton Interviewed on April 22, 1999 19990422C 1:34:57 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Raines Whittaker Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.) Southern Christian Leadership Conference Voter Education Project (Southern Regional Council) Dorothy Cotton Horace Huntley Video 1:|13(13)|28(11)|38(10)|53(11)|69(2)|85(3)|96(5)|117(6)|132(6)|143(14)|156(13)|169(15)|183(5)|196(3)|208(6)|218(6)|234(12)|244(5)|260(3)|276(7)|294(4)|309(3)|326(16)|345(8)|363(15)|377(12)|391(8)|404(12)|418(16)|430(12)|446(6)|462(12)|474(14)|489(9)|500(4)|512(6)|534(10)|546(7)|558(11)|579(13)|592(13)|609(7)|624(1)|638(5)|652(10)|667(13)|684(8)|691(12)|705(13)|717(10)|730(12)|744(5)|761(1)|773(1)|786(11)|799(9)|812(3)|825(5)|836(1)|846(4)|862(5)|873(13)|885(9)|896(3)|907(11)|918(2)|931(9)|942(10)|960(4)|977(12)|989(2)|1006(2)|1018(10)|1035(11)|1049(2)|1060(15)|1081(10)|1089(5)|1101(10)|1115(11)|1128(3)|1138(11)|1163(14)|1173(10)|1181(13)|1192(13)|1206(9)|1218(17)|1234(15)|1248(5)|1262(9)|1273(16)|1286(6)|1297(13) 0 https://youtu.be/msUCSbW0ysw YouTube video English 12 Beginning of Interview This is an interview with Ms. Dorothy Cotton for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute’s Oral History Project. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute http://www.bcri.org BCRI website 49 Biographical Information So, I would just like to know were you born in Alabama? Cotton grew up in North Carolina with four other siblings. African American families ; African American women ; Goldsboro (N.C.) ; Southern States--History 35.385145, -77.994577 12 Goldsboro, North Carolina 187 Parents' Background What was the education level of your mother and father? Cotton's mother died when she was very young and was raised with her siblings by her father who worked in a tobacco factory. Tobacco workers--North Carolina African American children ; African American families ; North Carolina--History ; Single-parent families 348 Elementary School What do you remember about your elementary school days? Elementary school was a particularly difficult time for Cotton. African American children ; African American families ; African Americans--Education (Elementary) 481 High School Education Was your high school in that vicinity in the same area? Cotton enjoyed high school thanks to the efforts of one of her teachers. African American high school students ; High school teachers ; Teacher-student relationships 651 Lack of Family Support That is obviously part of your support network. Cotton grew up without the support of her extended family. African American children ; African American families ; Single-parent families 814 Segregation Growing Up Growing up in a southern town, a small town, what was that like for young girls your age. Cotton grew up isolated but still witnessed the effects of segregation. African Americans--Segregation ; Poverty--United States ; Southern States--Race relations--History 1104 Interests in Pursuing Education As you approached your senior year in high school, you must have been thinking about, what do I do next? Cotton was influenced by her teachers to attend college, making her the first and only one to go in her family. Shaw University African American families ; African American history ; African American women ; First-generation college students ; Teacher-student relationships 1397 Influence of Teachers Did you ever get to go to the teacher that you referred to? Cotton's teachers helped her see options to change her life. African Americans--Alcohol use African American students ; African American women ; Teacher-student relationships 1505 Transition to College Why Shaw University? Cotton attended Shaw University and worked her way through without aid. Raleigh (N.C.) ; Shaw University African American college students ; African American women ; African students ; College students--Employment ; First-generation college students 1759 College Experiences Were there any highlights at Shaw? Cotton studied hard and worked her way through college. Shaw University ; Virginia State College African American college students ; African American women ; College students--Economic conditions ; College students--Employment 1916 Transfer to College in Virginia So you transferred? Cotton transferred to college in Virginia to keep working for the president who had transferred. Petersburg (Va.) ; Virginia State College African American college students ; Christian college students ; College students--Employment 2193 African Students What ever happened to the Liberian woman that you had met? There was a presence of African students at Shaw University which didn't exist at Virginia State College. Liberia African American college students ; African American women ; African students 2305 Marriage and Work What did you do after Virginia State? Cotton got married after college and began working in the college library. Petersburg (Va.) ; Virginia State College African American women librarians ; African Americans--Marriage ; Walker, Wyatt Tee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gillfield_Baptist_Church_(Petersburg%2C_Virginia) Gillfield Baptist Church information 2441 Changes Made by a New Reverend Reverend Walker was not the pastor initially when I went to Petersburg, Virginia, because when he did come as pastor, he was pastor when I became active in the church, but he use to tell this event. Cotton was involved with the church as they began to focus on civil rights and also went to graduate school at this time. Boston University ; Petersburg (Va.) African American women college students ; African Americans--Segregation ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Walker, Wyatt Tee 2695 Development of Southern Christian Leadership Conference Had he developed SCLC at that point? Cotton recalls Rev. Walker meeting with Dr. King to develop SCLC. Petersburg (Va.) ; Walker, Wyatt Tee African Americans--Civil rights--History ; Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 2814 Life in Atlanta What are some of the first issues that you encountered once you arrived in Atlanta? When Cotton moved to Atlanta she began working with Dr. King. Atlanta (Ga.) ; Baker, Ella, 1903-1986 African American civil rights workers ; African American women ; Citizenship Education Program ; Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 3024 Highlander Folk School and Citizenship Education Program They were fighting for their very lives because their state of Tennessee was trying to take that property, and ultimately did. While there were difficulties at the Highlander Folk School, the Citizenship Education Program transferred to SCLC. Horton, Myles, 1905-1990 African American women civil rights workers ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Citizenship Education Program ; Civil rights movement ; Highlander Folk School (Monteagle, Tenn.) ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 3214 Voter Registration Work Would that have any relationship with the voter education project that would eventually be thought up? Cotton helped with voter registration through the Citizenship Education Program. Voter Education Project (Southern Regional Council) African American women civil rights workers ; Citizenship Education Program ; Civil rights movement ; Clark, Septima Poinsette, 1898-1987 ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference ; Voter registration 3373 Dangers of Voter Registration Registering people to vote during that time could be very dangerous. Cotton recalls dangers faced, for example, by Fannie Lou Hamer, who was threatened for her work registering voters. African American women civil rights workers ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Civil rights movement ; Hamer, Fannie Lou ; Racism--United States--History ; Voter registration 3511 Organization of Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee The SNCC organization would be organized in 1960, and I think both Dr. King, as well as Ella Baker were instantly involved in that. Cotton recalls the dynamics of SNCC and the activities of the Citizenship Education Program. African American civil rights workers ; Carmichael, Stokely ; Citizenship Education Program ; Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.) ; Voter registration 3881 The Movement in Albany and Alabama But in those earlier days, there were several campaigns that normally stand out. Cotton reflects on ways the Albany Movement was not a failure and the importance of the movement in Birmingham. Albany (Ga.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) African American civil rights workers ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Albany Movement (Albany, Ga.) ; Civil rights movement ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 4140 Issues in Organizing And so there were, you know, a few hard places when folk did not agree on what the strategy would be. There were disagreements in organizing, such as how youth were seen as involved or being used. Birmingham (Ala.) African American civil rights workers ; African American youth ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Civil rights movement 4395 Getting Students Involved Did you personally visit schools and enlist the aid of students? Cotton worked to get students involved in the movement despite there not being explicit support for it. African American civil rights workers ; African American students ; African American youth ; Civil rights movement ; United States--Race relations 4595 Significance of Birmingham What was the meaning of Birmingham for the movement? The visibility of the movement in Birmingham helped propel its importance. African Americans--Civil rights--History ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement ; Documentary photography ; Racism--United States--History 4794 Traveling with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. I know that you also traveled with Dr. King internationally. Cotton traveled with Dr. King internationally. African American civil rights workers ; African American women ; International travel ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 4886 Reflecting Dr. King's Stance Against the Vietnam War There was a certain amount of tension in the movement early, because I think it was Stokely and people that were in SNCC who opposed the war earlier than Martin Luther King and SCLC. The decision for Dr. King to come out against the Vietnam War was challenging. Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Vietnam War, 1961-1975 5161 Mediating Challenges to Dr. King Some suggest that Dr. King became more threatened after he had made the speech against the war... A critique came from a preacher in Appalachia that Dr. King was leaving them out. Appalachian Region ; Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 5329 Expanding into Appalachia Was this when Dr. King expanded? The Black civil rights movement began recruiting white people from Appalachia to join. Appalachian Region ; Citizenship Education Program ; Civil rights movement ; United States--Race relations 5426 The Movement After Dr. King's Assassination Of course, his assassination. All kinds of questions that are raised. Did the movement die with Dr. King in 1968? Cotton sees the movement as necessarily evolving after Dr. King's assassination. African Americans--Civil rights--History ; Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Landmarks in civil rights history 5642 Interview Conclusion You know, you have been very gracious with your time, and I certainly appreciate it. African American women ; Civil rights in a new era Oral History Dorothy Cotton discusses working with Dr. King to establish the Southern Christian Leadership Conference in Atlanta. She continued to work and travel with Dr. King, including organizing with the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, until his assassination. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Dorothy Cotton for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is April 22, 1999. Welcome to the Institute. COTTON: Thank you very much. It is really good to be here. HUNTLEY: It is a pleasure to have you here. What I am doing today is trying to just get information about you, and of course, how in fact you got involved in the struggle. But before the struggle there was a lot of Dorothy Cotton that prepared you for that. So, I would just like to know were you born in Alabama. COTTON: No. I was born in Goldsboro, North Carolina, and Goldsboro is on the Eastern side of the state. Most people certainly know Raleigh, the capital of the state, even if they never heard of Goldsboro. Goldsboro is about 52 miles South of Raleigh on the Eastern side of the state. Goldsboro, North Carolina. I will not tell you what year. HUNTLEY: And I won&#039 ; t ask. COTTON: Alright. It was a long time ago. Actually, I was a depression baby. HUNTLEY: What about siblings? COTTON: Yes, there were four of us. My parents produced four girls, and my mother died when I was three years old, and she died leaving these four toddlers, actually. Again, I was three, I was the second born. The first born, Effie Mae, our last name Foreman. Effie Mae, Dorothy -- myself, and the third sister Daiselle, and Margaret who was not even a year old when my mother died. And that is a very sad story for me because my mother died in childbirth, and her youngest, Margaret, my youngest sister was not even a year old. I am not going to cry, but I really get very emotional even now when I think about those times and how hard it must have been with my mother obviously producing babies just much too fast. All of us were literally born one year apart, which meant that she had conceived again when her baby was three months. We were literally born one year apart from each other. So you can do your math there. Three months after each baby she had conceived again. I guess they didn&#039 ; t know about birth control in those days, but she died in childbirth, and it would have been a fifth child. HUNTLEY: What was the education level of your mother and father? COTTON: I really don&#039 ; t know. I think my mother-- it&#039 ; s interesting, I have never asked anyone. I think my mother finished high school, but I am really not sure of that, but I know that my father did not. Actually, daddy said he went to school one day and did not like it, and never went back. My father grew up in a very rural area of North Carolina in Green County, and that&#039 ; s a little bit vague, and they were living on a farm in a very isolated area. There were not even other houses around. I did get that much in an interview with my dad&#039 ; s oldest living sister. She also died last year, but I am really glad that I got her on tape describing something of their childhood, but it was in a very rural area in Green County living on a farm. Schooling was not important. What was important, as was true quite broadly across the south, was that you work on the farm. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. Children were born to work. COTTON: That&#039 ; s right and the more the merrier. Right? HUNTLEY: Did you continue to live with your father after your mother died? COTTON: Though my mother had lots of sisters and my dad said various sisters offered to take one of us, and we would have been scattered all about, and though I sort of assessed my childhood as being rather painful childhood, and my dad not even the kindest father in the world, but I guess he did care in his own way. Because he said to them, &quot ; No, I want to keep these young ones together.&quot ; And, he did keep us together, a struggle though it was, but he kept us together. He would not allow various aunts to take us and have us scattered all about. So, we grew up together. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did he do? COTTON: My father worked in a tobacco factory, and that tobacco factory there in Goldsboro, North Carolina, was not far down the road from where we lived at 917 North Greenleaf Street, a little three-room shack of a house, with an outhouse in the back yard. I was born in that little house. There were three of them. I took a photograph because I wanted to use the photograph of that little house in a book that I am doing on this same history, and my story. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your elementary school days? COTTON: Oh dear, I think my childhood was not a happy childhood, so the elementary school days really are kind of a blank, but I know that it was Greenleaf School, and I lived on Greenleaf Street. I do not think that building exist anymore. I am not really sure about that, but the elementary school was Greenleaf. It is interesting, no one has asked me about my elementary school days, but I have lots of memories about my high school days for a very particular reason. But the elementary school days, it is really kind of a blank. I know that it was very difficult. I think of things in relationship to my younger years elementary school days. You know, things like having to leave school one day to go get my tonsils taken out, which they did in the doctor&#039 ; s office, and no one went with me to do that. I had no mother to go with me. My father had to be at the factory, and all of that is so painful for me, that I went to have this done. I remember when dad came home I was already there in bed. I remember the nurse in the doctor&#039 ; s office after taking out my tonsils saying, &quot ; somebody should be with you here&quot ; . And, of course, many, many years after the fact, I hope I don&#039 ; t cry, but many years after the fact, I think certainly someone would have been with me if--. HUNTLEY: Wait a minute. You mean you walked from school to get your tonsils taken out and then afterwards you walked home. COTTON: And no adult went with me. They did it right in the doctor&#039 ; s office. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s interesting. COTTON: I think I am going to cry. HUNTLEY: Don&#039 ; t cry. That is very interesting because I was simply going to ask the question how you got back and forth to school. COTTON: Walked. I am going to go right back to Goldsboro and go see. I think that building does not exist anymore. HUNTLEY: Was your high school in that vicinity in the same area? COTTON: Dillard High School, of course we all walked to school, but it was farther away, and that building does still exist. They use it for some other purposes now. Of course, walking to school was the order of the day. There were no school buses for us. HUNTLEY: Now, high school. What about extracurricular activities? Did you participate in any of them? COTTON: Oh, yes! High School days are so much clearer and happier because of a teacher, and I loved to-- as you know I do a lot of public speaking now, and on occasion I have the opportunity to talk with teachers, and I am so just ready to motivate, to encourage, and to affirm that what they are doing in helping to call for the best in these youngsters that they are working with, helping to mold them, because of a teacher that I had, Ms. Rosie Gray, in high school, my English teacher. I think Ms. Rosie Gray took such an interest in me. I think I shudder to think what would have happened if she had not taken an interest in me because it was like she really just took me under her wings. Being the English teacher, she also was the drama teacher, and I think perhaps most high schools, at least what we did anyway, had an annual high school play. And, I did so well in her English classes, and I use to love to memorize poetry, and she would have us recite poetry in the classes. I remember that she said to me when some students were still stumbling through the poetry, and I said my poem with such a flair, and afterwards, she said, &quot ; there&#039 ; s your ready girl.&quot ; And, she was constantly affirming me, and I know that I loved doing that. I loved the poetry, and I loved English, and I am sure that is why I majored in English once I got to college, but I am fast forwarding how I got to college. But, to have the leading role in the high school plays was very important, and I think really put me on a track of affirming that I had something to bring to the environment, and I was very good in the plays, thanks to Ms. Rosie Gray. But, she really took an interest in me, and of course, I wanted to really please her. So we very close. HUNTLEY: That is obviously part of your support network. Did you have others, your family members in that general area that was part of your network as well, your support network? You mentioned aunts, and maybe uncles? Was that a part of your upbringing? COTTON: No. Again, my childhood was very difficult and very painful, and a part of what made it painful was that I didn&#039 ; t feel a support network. A part of the reason for that. For example, the several sisters, my mother&#039 ; s sisters, did not live in close proximity to us, but you know, not very far away, but they did not interact with us in a really close way. HUNTLEY: Did they have children your age? COTTON: Yes. They had children, but we didn&#039 ; t live in the same neighborhood, but we did not live far away. But, a part of the problem I think now at this age, I think I can analyze it this way, and I think this is accurate. I think that my father was sort of persona non grata with first of all my grandfather, my mother&#039 ; s father because my father, and these are his words &quot ; he stole my mother&quot ; . That is the word he used, so they ran off and got married, and grandpa never approved of the marriage. Grandpa also had three sets of children. He had three different marriages. He was kind of an itinerant preacher, but he would come around sometimes. And when grandpa would come around, there was always a scowl on my daddy&#039 ; s face. So, they were not close. I do not know if that is the reason that my mother&#039 ; s siblings were not around, but I asked my dad&#039 ; s sister some questions about my mother since I didn&#039 ; t know her, and something of the relationship. She said, &quot ; well, Claude, that&#039 ; s my daddy&#039 ; s name, did not want her around so much&quot ; . I think my dad, I think he sort of kept people at arm&#039 ; s length in a real way. HUNTLEY: So that kind of isolated the girls. COTTON: I think so. I think so. At the same time, I do remember my dad&#039 ; s -- this is my dad&#039 ; s older sister and her children coming around more than some of the others. HUNTLEY: Growing up in a southern town, a small town, what was that like for young girls your age. You know in Birmingham, where I grew up, you often talk about how separate and unequal all facilities were. Did you experience the same kind of situation in Goldsboro? COTTON: Oh yes. As I describe and refer to often, we really had apartheid in this country. We really had rigid separation of the races, and one incident that I focus on a good bit is the way, for example, the pavement. You could tell where the black folk lived when it got, even though whites lived in close proximity to black folks, the pavement would stop when it would get to the section where black folk lived. And I remember a white boy riding his bicycle down Greenleaf Street, and as he was riding he was riding down and stirring up dust on his bicycle. I remember the dust even, but he was singing, deep in the heart of nigger town. And I remember being very upset about that. Again, I am just writing about this. And I remember that was painful for me. I remember, I think I was about 10 when I heard him doing that. And, of course I felt really helpless to do anything, but I remember I reacted to that. I remember that I was hurt and angry. Yes, this segregation was really complete. And I think that my dad, given his lack of exposure to anything outside of that world where he was struggling to make a living, to feed his four girls, he had no exposure to anything except the really hard life of working in this factory. I do remember his sister, his oldest sister&#039 ; s children, and they only lived a part of time just two or three streets over, and dad use to, when things were a little bit better, he would buy watermelons and sell them from the front yard. He said sometimes he made nine dollars a week at the tobacco factory, and of course in those days, everything was cheap. You could buy a great big watermelon for a quarter. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. COTTON: When dad was feeling a bit affluent, I guess, had more than the nine dollars with a little bit left over, he would buy a whole load of watermelons from somebody who came by selling, and then dad would sell them for ten cents more, and I remember on Sunday it was a big celebration because he would cut two or three of them. And I remember his oldest sister&#039 ; s kids running across when they saw we had watermelons in the yard. They would run across, and of course, share the festivity, you know, from watermelons. HUNTLEY: In any kind of apartheid system, whether it is in American or in South Africa, there are always brutal kinds of events that would take place. I have had people tell me about the way that they or someone close to them may have been accosted by a police officer, or something that may even lead to something even more brutal, maybe even a murder or a lynching. Was that ever evident in your childhood that you knew of personally that may have happened to someone that was close to you? COTTON: I am not aware of physical violence from whites or policemen in the area where we lived. I am aware of the dysfunction of the folk who lived in the neighborhood, and people fighting, but I am talking about sort of intragroup, as a matter of fact, but no violence interracial or coming from the police. My dad just would go to the tobacco factory, he did not go anywhere, he didn&#039 ; t do anything. It was just that hard life of just eking out a living, and so he was not interactive. HUNTLEY: And you were basically totally isolated from the white community. COTTON: Yes, that&#039 ; s my sense of it. HUNTLEY: As you approached your senior year in high school, you must have been thinking about, what do I do next? COTTON: You know, I wish I could be clearer on how I knew that I wanted more education, that I wanted to go to college. Since I was not around people who were college trained. It must have come from my teachers, especially, Ms. Rosa Gray, my high school teacher, and I remember meeting Mary McCloud-Bethune. Dr. Bethune spoke at my school. As a matter of fact--. HUNTLEY: At your high school? COTTON: Actually, when she spoke, I had already, I am sort ahead of the story here, but I had already made my way over to Shaw University, and I would like to talk about that just a little bit, but I heard her say, and I had just gotten over there from my school. Well, let me tell you how I got there. It must have been Ms. Rosa Gray taking an interest in me, and also encouraging me to go forward. I remember once she came to my house to talk to my father because daddy would not let me go to the junior/senior prom. I know this now many years after the fact, that he probably did not know what a prom was. But also that he probably did not have any money to dress me up to go to the prom, but when I told Ms. Gray that dad said I could not go to the prom, she came to my house and she sat on the porch of this little three-room shack of a house and pleaded with my dad to let me go, that she would take care of me. And he said, &quot ; I just isn&#039 ; t ready for my girls to go to dances&quot ; . Daddy was going to talk fancy for the teacher. But, he probably did not know what they were, but I am sure--. HUNTLEY: But did you get to go to the prom? COTTON: No, I didn&#039 ; t go, but I really think it is because he couldn&#039 ; t dress me up, he couldn&#039 ; t buy me a dress. But, I knew again, specific to your question, the seed was planted somewhere in high school, and I think with my interaction with the teachers that I too wanted to either be a teacher or to do some things that they had done, so the teachers were the influence in my life in terms of my developing a vision for doing something with my life other than what I saw around me. HUNTLEY: What about your sister? You had an older sister. COTTON: Yes. I am the only one of the four that went to college. All four of us finished high school, and my three sisters got married shortly after high school, and started raising their families, and I am the only one that went to college. Another thing that happened when I was in high school was that I worked for white families. I would go sometimes before school to help a white woman who ran a boarding house, and she use to feed teachers. Teachers lived there and I would help her with breakfast and then I would run off to school. I would go after school to help with her with dinner and the dishes and all of that. I worked for two families. I ended up working for three white families, and I noticed that their homes were so much nicer than our homes. You asked about the influence. What I know is that I was thinking these people live better than we do, and why do they live better than we do. I don&#039 ; t know for sure, but I think that that must have had some influence. I would like a house too that has nice shiny floors rather than the floors where you get a splinter in your foot if you walk without shoes, or that&#039 ; s carpeted, a really nice home, and nice dishes and all. HUNTLEY: Your world had been broadened then by these experiences of being around people who had more than you had. COTTON: That&#039 ; s right. But interestingly, I don&#039 ; t know if I should say this on tape or not, but maybe I will. My sister also worked for Mrs. Brothers, who had the boarding house for the teachers, but, well let me not put it so much on her, but I think some of us can see by being in an environment, and one thing happens to some of us and a different thing happens to others of us. Like my sister would say, Oh, I love working with the public. We were sitting in a restaurant, and she meant she would love to be waitress, and I am saying, I don&#039 ; t want to be a waitress, I want to own the restaurant. So, I don&#039 ; t know where that comes from, just the whole different reaction to what we see and what we experience, but I knew that I wanted to do something different with my life that what I was seeing around me, and it probably was that exposure. First of all, the teachers taking a real interest in me and then just the exposure to the way other families lived and had more. HUNTLEY: Did you ever get to go to the teacher that you referred to? COTTON: Ms. Gray? HUNTLEY: Yes. Did you ever get to go to her home? COTTON: I never went to Ms. Gray&#039 ; s home, and incidentally, in those days she would say that she was an old maid teacher or spinster teacher. She was, indeed, Ms. Gray, not married, but so devoted to her teaching. I remember long after high school I was visiting in Goldsboro, and she knew I was in town and invited me and two or three other students, a fellow named William Harriston, who also had the male leading role in those plays every year. I just saw him like 40 years after the fact or more in Washington, and he went on to make movies. They did know that, I probably should have gone to drama school, but nobody knew to send me to drama school. But William Harriston, who I just reconnected with. He lives in Falls Church, but he made some movies and we just reconnected just a couple of months ago and remembered and reflected on Ms. Gray on how she took an interest in both of us. But, yes, seeing that life could be different, being exposed to something other than the neighborhood that I lived in, and seeing a lot of dysfunction in the neighborhood. You know, men would fight, I think two or three houses down the road somebody sold whiskey by the glass, and there was a lot of traffic in and out of that house. HUNTLEY: Shot house. COTTON: That&#039 ; s right, is that what they call it, shot house? HUNTLEY: Shot house, yes. COTTON: And a couple of men in the two or three houses that would fight over something, and I remember at least one fight that they got into. So, there was a good bit of that kind of dysfunction. Maybe not a lot, but there was some. But I just knew that life could be different. HUNTLEY: Why Shaw University? COTTON: Ms. Rosa Gray again, started talking to me about college, and she made the call over there to make arrangements for me to go, in other words to get me a job and, oh to this day I do not know how my daddy let me go. He wouldn&#039 ; t let me go to the prom because he wasn&#039 ; t for his girls to go to dances. But, Ms. Gray called over there and went through all the imaginations of registration and arranged two jobs for me. I ended up putting my things in a cardboard box and got a fellow that seemed interested in me to, Henry Bowden, my first boyfriend I think, to drive me to Raleigh with my things in this box. But, Ms. Gray had phoned over, she had made the arrangements. I never got a penny from anyone, not a family member ever gave me a coin. I worked in the dining hall and I cleaned the teacher&#039 ; s dormitory. Eventually, I started working in the president&#039 ; s home. This is an interesting story. I walked in the president&#039 ; s home when that job was arranged for me, went into the basement of the president&#039 ; s home, and there was an African student there ironing sheets on one of those big presses that they have in the--. Because you ironed all the linens, even hand towels and that sort of thing, because the president&#039 ; s home, you know they entertained a lot. But there was this African student. I am fast forwarding over some history, but that African girl that I met that also helped in the president&#039 ; s home, her name is Angie Brooks. Angie Brooks was from Liberia. Angie Brooks became the attorney general of Liberia, and I met her ironing sheets. I was in Liberia once and met her then. I thought that was an interesting thing I started, that she too. So, when I hear, as you know I was director of student activities at Cornell University for almost 10 years, and students use to have big protests because they were not getting enough student aid, and I thought, my goodness, what&#039 ; s that? They were not getting enough student aid. I got no student aid. I got no family aid. I had three jobs working my way. The teacher&#039 ; s dormitory, the dining hall, working in the president&#039 ; s office. I bout near killed myself, I think, it was too much. I don&#039 ; t recommend that much working, to work through school, but that is how I got there, thanks to Ms. Gray who set that all up for me. HUNTLEY: What was the transition like, coming from Goldsboro to Raleigh? COTTON: That was easy enough. I remember no particular hardship around then because everybody at Shaw was poor, as I recall. All the students were poor, all the students were working. I lived in Estes Hall, that was, I guess the freshman dormitory at Shaw. It is a Baptist College there in Raleigh, North Carolina, but everybody was kinda of in the same boat. I remember living in the dormitory my roommate there and I use to--. I remember I had one dress-up dress, and my roommate and I use to.... and I remember it had yellow, green, and green, yellow and black stripes going around it. Sometimes when I needed to dress up, I would borrow her dress-up dress and sometimes just to have a change, and she borrowed mine. We would exchange. HUNTLEY: Yes, yes, that was a change. COTTON: I can&#039 ; t imagine with my ways and as finicky as I am now about things. But, you know things. But you know again, I didn&#039 ; t even have a suitcase, I had my things in a little cardboard box, and it held everything I owned, but it was okay because we were all just in the same boat as I said. HUNTLEY: Were there any highlights at Shaw? I remember when my wife went off to school, she said she just enjoyed being at Tuskegee. She is from Birmingham. She just enjoyed being at Tuskegee so much that she didn&#039 ; t want to come home during the breaks because at least she considered herself grown when she was there. She didn&#039 ; t have to go by her father&#039 ; s rules. Did you have any feeling such as that? COTTON: That is very interesting. I am sure that was true for me, and I am not sure I felt totally grown until, I can talk about that, some things that happened subsequent to this. But to be away from Greenleaf Street at last, and on my own, but I do remember the hardship of working so much. HUNTLEY: Did that negatively impact upon your studies? COTTON: Yeah. Yes, I remember it just really very hard. Even so, I enjoyed my studying, but I just think I was just too tired, but I still did it, and I was a pretty good student. I didn&#039 ; t take a full load. It took me an extra year to finish college because I couldn&#039 ; t take a full load. But, yes I felt like I was on the road. I knew something was on the horizon for me. You know, something other than the environment that I had come from, something was better was on the horizon, and I know that I took hope from that vision. HUNTLEY: You were anticipating. COTTON: That&#039 ; s right. I was anticipating what was waiting for me down the road, and I was just willing to, as an old song we use to sing in the churches, something about run on and see what the end is going to be, and so I remember feeling that sense of hope, that things are going to get better, and some very interesting things happened. Like after the first year at Shaw University, ironing those sheets in the basement and you know, taking care of this house. When Dr. Robert Prentice Daniel, the president of Shaw University at the time got offered the presidency of Virginia State College in Petersburg, Virginia, that&#039 ; s how I got to Virginia. I polished those floors so well in the president&#039 ; s home. I ironed those sheets so well. I took such good care of that house, when he took the job at Virginia State College, it is now Virginia State University, and they took me with them. HUNTLEY: So, you transferred? COTTON: I transferred from Shaw University the day after about a year and became a student at Virginia State College in Petersburg, Virginia. And at this point I now lived in the president&#039 ; s home, no longer in the dormitory. There was a space on the third floor, kind of like a loft. There was another girl who lived there too. HUNTLEY: How was Shaw different from Virginia State: COTTON: Virginia State College, it seemed to me was a much more affluent situation. As I look back on it I remember Shaw University at the time at the time as, indeed, being a poor struggling school, but I only knew that afterwards. I was not conscious of that then, but when I got to Virginia State College, my sense was again, it is a state school. Shaw is a church-related school, and so the state school had a little bit more money. I mean, in no way again this is a period of our apartheid in this country, and so the University of Virginia, you know at the time black folk could not even go there, and so they built separate and very, very unequal, but it had more facilities, better buildings and everything that Shaw University, because obviously there was a little bit more money at Virginia State. HUNTLEY: So, you were a junior at that time. COTTON: Oh no, I was not a junior. I think I had just barely finished the first year in college. HUNTLEY: Okay. Is there anything that stands out in your mind about your experiences at Virginia State? COTTON: Oh yes, oh yes! Virginia State College. I became very active in the Student Christian Association. I was always in extracurricular activities, so as hard as I worked, I found some extracurricular things to do, and every Sunday evening I was hold forth at the evening meeting. It was sort of a YWCA sort of gathering on the campus, but it was called SCA at the time, Student Christian Association. Every evening I am there and leading the singing, and we are having discussions about Sam Ghandi, Dr. Ghandi, we called him Reverend Sam Ghandi at that time, was the minister there at Virginia State College. He too took an interest in me and seemed to have been encouraging me to take a leadership role, and another program that I--I am not sure whether I started it or not, but it was a program called the Even Song, and as I said I always liked poetry. Another program that I did all by myself with the college organist, was to do a program called the Even Song, and that students would come in on Sunday evening and would just hear this voice coming over the microphone reading poetry, and the organist would play, and there were themes. If it is Thanksgiving, I am reading about the earth and plenty, and whatever. But planning those poetry readings, and so I was very active and apparently I needed to do the extracurricular things because the work was hard. I lived in the president&#039 ; s home, that was not as grand as it sound. The house was quite grand, compared to anything that I had ever seen. I remember my dad came to visit once, and he said, &quot ; how do they keep the floors so shiny?&quot ; and he said, &quot ; what in the world does anybody want to have their floors shining like this for?&quot ; Daddy had never seen floors that were all polished and shiny. I had made them shine, but it was hard. The president&#039 ; s wife, Mrs. Blanche Taylor-Daniel, she would ask me, I remember when she asked me to take down the curtains and wash them the night before examinations the next day, so it was hard. And sometimes they wanted to think of me as a daughter, they had no children, Dr. and Mrs. Daniel, and I was sort of part daughter and part maid. HUNTLEY: Yes, yes. COTTON: So, it was hard. HUNTLEY: What ever happened to the Liberian woman that you had met? COTTON: At Shaw University? HUNTLEY: Yes. COTTON: Of course, she went on to graduate from Shaw University, but I left. I think she graduated the year I left Shaw and went on. She was not taken to Virginia by the Daniels. But I never forgot her. Many years later when I am visiting in Africa in Liberia. I had followed her career though, and I knew that Angie had become the attorney general in Liberia, and another woman, Mabel Fagan, another Liberian student. We had just a wonderful visit there. This was before the awful coup some years ago. HUNTLEY: At black institutions many times Africans would come and go to certain institutions, Jackson State, Lincoln. Was that the case at Virginia State? And if so, were there any relationships that developed between the African-American students and the African students? COTTON: At Shaw University, yes. I am not aware of an African presence at Virginia State College once I got to Virginia, but at Shaw University, I think there was a definite and intentional outreach to African students. It was church related, and I think that was an interest of the churches to bring African students for their education. Angie went on, I am not sure where she went to law school and got her advanced degrees, but I think she did that also here in New York. And I knew that she had gone back to Liberia at some point to visit. HUNTLEY: What did you do after Virginia State? COTTON: I got a job working in the library at Virginia State College, having lived in the president&#039 ; s home. I am still living in the president&#039 ; s home when I graduated, and worked in the library, and I became very active in a church downtown in Petersburg, Virginia. That church was the Gilfield Baptist Church, and they had this handsome young preacher named Wyatt T. Walker. Reverend Walker became the pastor of Gilfield Baptist Church, and now I have graduated and got married in the president&#039 ; s home. Oh, I forgot that is another story. I did get married in the president&#039 ; s home. That is when I really moved out, but in the interim--. HUNTLEY: Is this someone that you met while at the college? COTTON: As a matter of fact, the entire time that I was at Virginia State College, I was being courted by this older guy who would, I felt like he would, he had this big Buick car, and it was he who would drive on to the campus and take me away from my struggles and my troubles. We would go somewhere and, you know, celebrate and have a glass of beer or something, very naughty, naughty. HUNTLEY: At that particular time, that was very naughty. COTTON: That&#039 ; s right, that&#039 ; s right. We would listen to jazz and drink beer, which I don&#039 ; t like very much, but back then it was felt I was a little more grown up now. HUNTLEY: And independent. COTTON: I ended up marrying George Cotton after almost six or seven years of courting, but it became sort of a habit just to hang out with George during my later college years, and it eventually, working in the library, then getting married as I am still living in the president&#039 ; s home, but also getting active in this church, Gilfield Baptist Church. Reverend Walker, some made an interesting comment, I will never forget about him. I am not sure I should be telling all of this because it is going to be in my book. Maybe it will help the book along. HUNTLEY: It will be here, and you can always say, well, if you want to hear this story, go to the institute and read it here. COTTON: Right, right. Reverend Walker was not the pastor initially when I went to Petersburg, Virginia, because when he did come as pastor, he was pastor when I became active in the church, but he use to tell this event. He was wearing in those days they called them Bermuda shorts. I don&#039 ; t know if they still do. But Reverend Walker showed up on his way to go play golf in his Bermuda shorts and a little old lady at the church said, &quot ; you our new pastor? You our new young pastor. Well, son you ain&#039 ; t lived long enough, to have sinned long enough, to have repented long enough, to be telling me what to do&quot ; . So that was her response. You see he is such a young guy. HUNTLEY: That was his introduction. COTTON: His introduction to one of the members of the church. You ain&#039 ; t lived long enough, to have sinned long enough, to have repented long enough to be telling me what to do. But I got to know Reverend Walker and was very active in church. Black folk could not use the public library in Petersburg, Virginia. Reverend Walker became head of the local chapter of the NAACP, and always smarted under the fact of the whole segregation but targeted at some point that library that would not allow black folk to come to the public library, if you could believe that. But he wanted the NAACP headquarters to take that case and fight it in the courts, our exclusion. They had so many cases on the docket at the time, they would not take the case. They just had too many. Reverend Walker said we are going to do this anyway. So we started our own protest, and I ended up at the church making picket signs and helping younger people, younger than I make picket signs, so that we could walk in front of the library protesting. I need to get the year of this. This must have been around 1950s. HUNTLEY: Before Brown? COTTON: No, it was after Brown. Things were sort of moving. As a matter of fact, Reverend Walker knew Martin Luther King. I am not sure when he met him, but he knew him, but we began mounting a campaign against this segregated library. I also remember walking in front of the Woolworth store downtown, and all of this activity emanated from Reverend Walker&#039 ; s church, Gilfield Baptist Church, and I threw a key in helping to talk about nonviolence with the young people, and they were all younger people who were interested in helping with the protest in Petersburg in front of the library. And of course, we now must have been very close, I think maybe this might have been 1959. The reason is I went off to graduate school in between, and I finished my master&#039 ; s degree in 1960. HUNTLEY: Where did you go off to? COTTON: Boston University. I am now married. I would go up into the summer, then I would go up the following summer, and then I would go up, and then once I told my husband I am just going to and stay and finish. I remember that I finished the degree in August, 1960. I am a little bit ahead of the story. In 1960 was also when I moved to Atlanta. Backing up again, Reverend Walker invited Martin Luther King to come to Petersburg, Virginia, to speak at one of our mass meetings, so now this might have been early 1960. You can do a little research and really pin this down. Because the sit-in movement had started which was 1960, and the Montgomery bus boycott had happened, and that was 1955. So sometimes between 1955, we now knew Martin Luther King had given this wonderful leadership in Montgomery, Alabama. And just watching how the leadership that he gave there, Reverend Walker knew that he would be just a good speaker for one of our mass meetings. HUNTLEY: Had he developed SCLC at that point? COTTON: No. I think the SCLC was just an idea at this time. HUNTLEY: That would have been in 1957, when SCLC was first organized. COTTON: When it was first organized. What Martin Luther King did, and when he came up to speak I was on the program that night. I think I did some poetry again, but somehow we don&#039 ; t just have a speaker come in and speak, you have some music and some other things, trying to get students at Cornell to understand this. They don&#039 ; t listen to anybody speak, they give them a bunch of money and --. have something else on the program and make it more interesting. So, I was also on the program and we had dinner at the Parsonage afterwards. As a matter of fact, I found a photograph just recently of meeting Dr. King, the very first time I met him at the young women&#039 ; s parish slept at the church. We took a picture of him. We had this dinner at the pastor&#039 ; s house. On that visit, Dr. King invited Wyatt T. Walker to come to Atlanta to help him develop this organization, SCLC. Reverend Walker said I will come if I can bring the two people who helped me most here with our local movement in Petersburg, Virginia, and that was a fellow named Jim Wood and me. And I said to my husband, I think I will go down and help them out. Reverend Walker has invited me to go down and Dr. King to be his administrative assistant until they get going, and my husband drove me down to Atlanta, and he was coming back and forth to visit. I said I was going to stay about six months, but I stayed 23 years. HUNTLEY: Twenty-three years. COTTON: And the movement became my whole life. HUNTLEY: That is very interesting, because now what you have done, you embarked upon really giving your life to the movement. What are some of the first issues that you encountered once you arrived in Atlanta? COTTON: I did work in the office as administrative assistant to Wyatt Walker who is now the executive director, and so in these kinds of offices, in this kind of work you do a lot of things. I only had typing in high school and a little course of shorthand, and again I was not really the secretarial type, but I was, I think a good administrative type person just sort of helping sort of overseeing and keeping things moving and helping Reverend Walker in that way. But shortly after I was there the Highlander Folk School in Atlanta. Oh dear, there is so much about it in this in this story. I have to say a little a bit about Highlander, and how we got a program that Andrew Young and I came to, actually direct. But I remember Dr. King came and sat in front of my desk once in our little office. When Wyatt and I got there, there were, I think Ella Baker was still there, but she did not stay long after these chauvinistic preachers got there, and so she was not around the office very much. There were maybe a couple of other people, Lillie Hunter, and --.. HUNTLEY: Did you get to know Ella Baker? COTTON: Yes. I remember going out to eat together a few times, and I knew her some, not in any great detail. But she was not around long after all these preachers moved in. And Dr. King was just actually moving into Atlanta too from Montgomery shortly before that. He sort of moved in, even though SCLC had their organizational meeting in 1957, was it, but in terms of really becoming the organization that we know about now, that took some for it to evolve. But we started out in this little office, and I think it might have had maybe two rooms, as opposed to big floor of offices. But when Dr. King pulled up his chair, it was like he just getting to know me. I am new in town, I am going to be a part of his staff now, and I think one of the reasons he was talking to me was just to see where my head was at, and if I had any sense, if you will, what my skills might have been. Because they were in discussion about receiving a program called the Citizenship Education Program. I will fast forward a minute here, that program became my responsibility. Andrew Young was very key in our getting that program. Highlander Folk School was in the courts fighting for its very life. Miles Horton, at Highlander, a white guy. HUNTLEY: Monteagle, Tennessee. COTTON: Yes, Monteagle, Tennessee. They were fighting for their very lives because their state of Tennessee was trying to take that property, and ultimately did. They had a program called the Citizenship Education Program. Septima Points-Clark or Charleston, South Carolina, was working a Highlander and Bernice Robinson, who actually was the first Citizenship schoolteacher after Septima got there. They were the staff at Highlander, but the Marshal Field Foundation that was funding that program, they knew about the court situation. The reason the state was taking that property really was because Miles Horton, a white guy in, you know, rural Tennessee is bringing black folk and white folk together up there in the folk school to discuss their problems, and to discover their own capacity to solve their problems. He use to get beat up and that sort of thing. They accused him of just all manner of evil, selling whiskey, etc. HUNTLEY: A communist as well. COTTON: That&#039 ; s right, that communist fool they called him. One woman said they wouldn&#039 ; t have known communism from rheumatism, but they called in communism going on up there. But the state won, and the property was confiscated. Septima said they even took cans of peas from the shelf, Highlander, a beautiful piece of property, but of course Miles, they found other property, and Highlander is now, you know going strong. But, that program during that time of the impending transition, the Marshal Field Foundation knew that they did not want to give the grant for running this training program, citizenship education to that school because they probably had saw the handwriting on the wall, they were going to lose it, so SCLC got this training program. We inherited that training program, and Andrew Young came down to administer the program because they selected the congregational church headquarters, United Church of Christ it is now, in New York, and Andy was living in New York. Actually, Andy was going to come and work at Highlander, but all this pending transition was about to happen, and we got the program, so Andy ended up coming over with the program from Highlander to work at SCLC to administer this program, and that program became my full-time responsibility as well, rather than being administrator with Wyatt in the office there. So, we then started to develop and further develop and expand this adult training program that was started at Highlander Folk School, teaching black adults how to read and write so they could register to vote, it was not just for literacy sake. But that is what the program was about. Really to help black folk around those islands of Charleston, South Carolina, just to discover a different sense of themselves. HUNTLEY: Would that have any relationship with the voter education project that would eventually be thought up? COTTON: No. We never called, though voter education and registration were integral pieces of the training, but the voter education project was run by Southern Regional Council in Atlanta. I think that is what they called their voter registration education effort. HUNTLEY: Yeah, VEP. COTTON: Yes, VEP, that&#039 ; s right. We called ours citizenship education. But we did more than just voter registration and training. It really, indeed was a citizenship education program. In all that citizenship implies. The United Church of Christ had built several schools, but there was a school down in a little place called McIntosh, Georgia. It is about 35 miles south of Savannah. There was the Dorchester Academy developed by the church to teach the freed slaves, I think, at the turn of the century, but this building was just standing there. And it was given to the community as kind of a community center, and Andy knew about the property, and Andy got the church to give that over to the training program, because now SCLC has inherited the program from Highlander, and Andy&#039 ; s job was to help see that we expanded and kept that training program going, teaching black folk how to be free. And I would like to talk about it. We, Septima Clark and I would get in the cars and we now had the grant coming again from the Marshal-Field Foundation, and we would drive. We would target certain areas around the south. They used to think Septima was the mother and Andy and I were the son and daughter, that&#039 ; s how we sort of looked riding around, driving around together. We would go into communities and tell the people about the training program. Into communities targeted because they had the civil rights activity. They had this protest activity going, you know, things were happening, you know, at this time. I am talking about back in 1961. I know, because Andy came to SCLC in 1961. I came in 1960. I preceded Andy by a few months. Those are some dates I am very clear about. HUNTLEY: Registering people to vote during that time could be very dangerous. Did you encounter any of that? COTTON: Oh, absolutely. I think it would be important to note here that once we traveled around and recruited people to come take the training, sometimes we would bring a busload of folks from one community. I remember for example the first time we met Fannie Lou Hamer, we had been recruiting and telling people in the Delta area of Mississippi about the training program, met Fannie Lou Hamer, and invited her to come to Dorchester Center now in McIntosh, Georgia, and to bring other people with her, and she became a major recruiter for us in that area. There came a time when we no longer needed to go, but we ran a five-day residential citizenship education training workshop every single month, and eventually we could just call key people and say, would call Fannie Lou Hamer, for example, saw the dates we had a five-day workshop going of the people you like to go through the training. Fannie Lou Hamer was also working to register folk where she lived in Ruleville, and lived on Mr. Marlow&#039 ; s plantation as she talked about it, and Fannie Lou Hamer talked about being abused and threatened because of her work in voter registration education activities. She was told that she needed to get out of town and her husband, Papp, as she called him, took her to the next county because they had been threatened, and she told us that--. She called Papp, her husband and said come get me, I am not going to stay over here anymore and I am going to keep on doing my work, and had become a, yes, people were certainly brutalized, and the voter education registration became a key component of that training program. HUNTLEY: The SNCC organization would be organized in 1960, and I think both Dr. King, as well as Ella Baker were instantly involved in that. Were you involved in that? COTTON: I didn&#039 ; t go to the planning meeting, in which they held at Shaw University as a matter of fact, my old college, the first college I went to. Ella Baker was very key in setting the tone for organizing the SNCC folk, and really getting it going. They liked her style and she really took that on as her role to get SNCC going. HUNTLEY: What eventually would say the relationship, particularly in those early days when you are doing voter registration and SNCC is going to Mississippi, they are doing voter registration, and Fannie Lou Hamer would eventually become a part of SNCC and the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party. How did those organizations work, you know, together? Were they in close association? Because when you read things there are all kinds of differences made by all of them. COTTON: Yes. In a real sense there was a close association because we were doing the same work in a real sense. We might have had a little different style. For example, I don&#039 ; t know anyone else that had, for example a training center where we would bring 40, 50, sometimes 60 people together at Dorchester Center and they would stay for five days in a residential workshop learning how to become citizens and functioning and how to fight for their rights. People would leave Dorchester Center, the training workshops there and the citizenship education workshop. They would go back to their homes, and times were just never the same again. We like say, it really was the base upon so much that training program, the base upon which really so much of the movement was built. Now these people would leave Dorchesta Center, go back in their communities and there would be SNCC people there often living in these various communities, and their style was to, indeed, live in the communities and be there and work that way. We were running a training program bringing people from all over the south, you know, to that place. When I hear of tension between the various groups, ultimately, that really was true, but it was more like, I think Andy speaks of it this way. It was like children wanting to cut the umbilical cord and to be independent and alone, and away from the older people, because we were older than most of the SNCC people. It was the student nonviolent coordinator committee. You know, here are the people, there is Ella Baker, there is Martin Luther King, there is Dorothy Cotton, you know, there is Wyatt T. Walker. You know, all older that were SNCC people, and I saw it as a gentle kind of tension, but we were friends. We were in the same communities, because we too, those of us working with the Citizenship Education Program, we were also in these communities. We didn&#039 ; t live in the communities on a long-term basis, because wherever I would visit in a community, I also had to get back and plan the next five-day training workshop, so we were all just like the NAACP working through the courts. We needed people working at all of those levels, and I think sometimes I run across people who make a bit too much out of the tension and dissension, though I also acknowledge that, yes there came a time, really to fast forward through the latter days of that phase of the civil rights movement, when you know, the Stokely Carmichaels would say, you know, nothing is nonviolent, foolishness, you know, take up the guns. Stokely died talking about taking up the gun. He spoke at Cornell University just a few months before he died, and I talked with him. Even then, speaking at those students at Cornell last year, he was talking about, you know, take up the gun. He didn&#039 ; t say he was going to shoot, but he said, &quot ; take up the gun&quot ; . So, there was a gentle kind of tension and people were getting tired after several years of struggling, you know struggling, and it was only, you know, of course after Dr. King&#039 ; s death, I don&#039 ; t if you saw the ABC television program, the Century, where they invited me to come down to Manhattan, and they wanted to talk about Dr. King&#039 ; s last week on earth, and we were very concerned about what he was going through those last days. A part of what he was going through during those last days were challenges by. It was almost like the sons challenging the father. Dr. King was very distressed by that now constant criticism, you know, he had come out against the war in Vietnam, and he was people were saying, some of the SNCC people saying things like, if you come into Washington as we were planning the march on Washington, the poor people&#039 ; s campaign, we were disrupted. The challenges were really heavy, and that was very painful, but that is just talking about those last days. HUNTLEY: But in those earlier days, there were several campaigns that normally stand out. We know about the sit-ins in the 1960s, the freedom rides in 1961. In 1962, I believe SCLC, Dr. King was invited to come into Albany, Georgia, and he went in and some said that this was a defeat for the movement. Right after that, of course, evidently Fred Shuttlesworth had been involved, of course, and said we need to come to Birmingham, and you would be one of those that would come to Birmingham. What were those first days like coming into Birmingham and trying to prepare people of what the vision of SCLC and the Alabama Christian movement was in that particular era? COTTON: Just to comment about Albany. Many people of written and speak about Albany as a defeat for the movement. We don&#039 ; t think so. The reason we don&#039 ; t think so is that, if you think about movement, if you think about large numbers of people, actually any emotion can bring about change. There is no blueprint for that. There is no pattern. You can&#039 ; t, you know you can look at Mahatma Ghandi and anybody that has conducted major campaigns. There is no blueprint that tells you what is going to happen when you do whatever you do. We learned a great lesson in Albany. And if we hadn&#039 ; t learned that lesson in Albany, we might have had to learn it here. But because we learned it in Albany, we did not have to learn that one here and we certainly had known we were learning all the time. A major lesson was to go in after things were so much in motion in a particular way that, you know if things are already in motion and you do not do the basic ground work of building your coalitions and that sort of thing, you are going to have a hard time. You are going to run into some naughty places if you don&#039 ; t build that kind of coalition in the ground. So we learned that we needed to do that to really build the coalitions. That is just one of the lessons out of Albany, I think that we went in too fast without doing that kind of coalition building. When we got to Birmingham, my sense is that the Alabama Christian movement for human rights had been the Reverend Shuttlesworth, who had been on the firing lines a long time. But when SCLC was invited to come in here, I remember just massive numbers of meetings that were held with folk talking together about we would come together, how SCLC would be helpful, and not that was all that smooth either, but I think the coalitions were, oh I am trying to think of the name of the group, some citizens group, Dr. King, Andy, Wyatt, we were meeting with regularly here to solidify and make sure we did have yet the kind of dialogue going on --. HUNTLEY: Outside of the movement? COTTON: Yes, outside of the movement. Local Birmingham people that would sit and meet with Martin, Ralph, Fred, Andy, and me, we were meeting regularly with--. HUNTLEY: John Drew. COTTON: That&#039 ; s right, with a real coalition of people here in Birmingham. That was ongoing. Those meetings were regular and ongoing, and that was important. You know, we could talk about, we know this long after the fact. We know that there were some jealousies, and you know, and I know that there are people are around that they are not getting kind of credit that they should get. Some of the top leaders in the movement are feeling, some taking credit where no credit is due, and some just decided I am going to claim the credit that is due me, you know and that was many years after the fact. And you know, movement is dynamic, it is not static. HUNTLEY: Yes. COTTON: And so, there were, you know, a few hard places when folk did not agree on what the strategy would be. I am sure Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth can tell you, you know some of the sort of hard places where there were disagreements. I remember folk getting anger among some of the people in the leadership conjuring, but it didn&#039 ; t stop the forward movement. I thought these are human beings, you know, working together to make something happen, to bring about basic change in the society. HUNTLEY: One of the key issues of that time, of course, was the issue of the use of children. Can you speak on that? COTTON: Alright. People toss that phrase around where I have traveled around and certain places. For example, I was up in Minnesota not long ago, and someone said something about, they used a phrase, using children. I didn&#039 ; t think of it that way, and I don&#039 ; t anyone who has really thought about the movement and, you know in a real analytical or understanding way, to think of that in a pejorative of kind of negative way. Because as I could began to respond by a commenting quoting a young man, a Mr. Hood, incidentally, who came here last summer when I brought a few local students here to the institute just to hear stories of Birmingham from Birmingham people who were involved in the movement, and I asked the planners to set up a panel discussion to make sure you find some people who were teenagers, who were youngsters at the time, and Mr. Hood said, I am blocking on his first name which I should know, he said, &quot ; I got involved in as a teenager because I had to. I got involved because I would have felt and did feel so left out of what was happening until I got involved.&quot ; I wish I had just taped his response. And I know that is what happened to a lot of young people who got involved. People were walking up and down the street and saying things like, you going to the movement, you going to the meeting? You&#039 ; re just out of it, what you mean you are not going, everybody is going to the movement. HUNTLEY: Yes, yes. COTTON: That&#039 ; s how they said it. It was so dynamic, and people were really caught up in it, and it did not matter what was happening. The big demonstrations, the big demonstrations, the dogs, and the fire hoses. That just made more people want to come sometimes out of curiosity, but once there for curiosity, people got caught up in the dynamics and actually the spirit of it, and also the justness of our cause, and understood and felt that something is happening here and I am going to miss out on something important if I don&#039 ; t get involved. Now, that being said, we also had, as a matter of fact Andy asked me to come over here, me and James Bevell to run some citizenship education workshops here in Birmingham. And I remember James Bevell and I working in the basement of the churches, and a handful of students coming by, and I will just explain to them what all this dynamic activity is in Birmingham, and they were interested, you know, what&#039 ; s going on? And to help them understand that we live in a democracy, but it is not perfect, and we have a major flaw, and we have to make it right. I remember a handful of students being in the church, and ultimately thousands of students being involved, because it just grew like wildfire. Students got involved because they wanted to, and we knew as, I think it was Bevel who said, you will get a greater education by being involved in this struggle than you would in a civics class. HUNTLEY: Did you personally visit schools and enlist the aid of students? You know Bevel did that. COTTON: We did it together. We did it together. HUNTLEY: How did that work? What did you do? COTTON: We would talk to students wherever we could. What I tried to do was to find some students who really understood. Some who had been in the sessions at the churches, to find some students who really understood, and to get them to help other students to see and to understand. I don&#039 ; t recall personally talking to an administrator at a school. The teachers and school administrators were a little bit weary of us and felt they could get fired, right? So I had to be careful, but to be on the school grounds which we were and talking. We didn&#039 ; t get chased away. I think a lot of teachers and probably administrators, I am speculating here, were very glad that the movement was happening and even supported students being involved in, ultimately massive numbers, but they couldn&#039 ; t say that out loud. There was a lot of quiet support I think amongst black educators, and I could mention among some whites that I know about who were supporting it but would never ever say it out loud. The wonderful, Mr. Emil Hess, for example, who I think founded one of the Parisians Department stores took me to lunch a few years ago, shortly about a year or so before he passed, and I asked him that very question, what was it like for you, a very prominent businessman in Birmingham. What was it like for you during this time, and he actually said, if I had come out publicly supporting the movement, we would have not had the Parisians stores. Nobody would have come into the store if people had known, so he had the support, but he was supportive of our goals, and I am not sure of what else he did in terms either financial or helping in negotiations, but he was supportive of the goals. It was exciting to see children get turned on to this notion that we have a democracy and it is not right that a segment of the population should be excluded from the mainstream of life. Children came to understand that and understood more than some of the parents did. As a matter of fact, I remember, I don&#039 ; t know the name, but I remember one father chasing his son because he had ordered his son not to be involved. There were a few folk, not every black person was pro-movement, you know, and not even all the preachers, but if you hear them talk now, they all loved Martin Luther King. But they didn&#039 ; t all love Martin Luther King, and but they wished that he would get out of town with his &quot ; mess&quot ; . HUNTLEY: He was an outside agitator. COTTON: That&#039 ; s right, that&#039 ; s right. A few black folk felt that too. But I remember the son was running and the father was trying to catch him, because he had ordered him not to get involved in this &quot ; mess&quot ; , and I don&#039 ; t know whether he ever caught that son or not, but its like Mr. Hood said, that son was probably involved because he too had to. He wasn&#039 ; t going to miss out. I would like to know. HUNTLEY: What was the meaning of Birmingham for the movement? COTTON: Oh, may I quote Mr. Emil Hess? HUNTLEY: Yes. COTTON: I am going to write about this in my book because he said it so well, this white man, big businessman in Birmingham said, &quot ; Birmingham catapulted this country into the 21st century&quot ; . And I think that that is so true. Who in this country, maybe who in other countries don&#039 ; t know about Birmingham, Alabama. And though it came to be called bombingham, and we know why that was so, all the bombings, and then of course, the period. But the world, first of all the country saw this flaw in our democratic system through Birmingham. They saw the evil of segregation and racism through looking at Birmingham and what was going on here through the movement in Birmingham. It was like, you know, cutting open a boil and letting out all the ugly stuff so healing can take place. This is where that cutting open occurred so that all the ugliness could come, you know, the racial hatred, and the ugliness of apartheid, American style, it could all be exorcised. Birmingham did that. We had probably worse, if not worse, at least just as violent response to demonstrations in St. Augustine, Florida, for example. But the country doesn&#039 ; t know about it, you never hear about St. Augustine. I remember marching in some of the big demonstrations in St. Augustine. The first place where we had night demonstrations, and that is the place where I thought I could have gotten killed because I remember marching one night. I remember Andy was leading was leading the march, and I was not far behind and someone threw a brick across and went, 2 or 3 inches it would have hit my head, but it went between me and the person walking in front of me and shattered a store window when they threw the brick. And I remember somebody jumping on Andy&#039 ; s back and having him on the ground, and even today I shutter to think the guy could have a knife or something. Andy was leading the march, but we had run workshops and we were so disciplined, but there were no cameras. That didn&#039 ; t get out around the country, but cameras show all the ugliness of this terrible in our system, and the cameras showed it from Birmingham. HUNTLEY: And Birmingham then is pictured all over the world, and that is what created the dynamic that would eventually change Birmingham, and probably changed the world. COTTON: Absolutely. HUNTLEY: I know that you also traveled with Dr. King internationally. It was rather early that he made a trip to, was it to Ghana? Did he go to Ghana? COTTON: I never went to Africa with him. I went to. Actually, I don&#039 ; t know if people know, Dr. King loved to go to Jamaica to write. When he was going to take a little sabbatical from the activity and write, he went to Bimini two- or three-times time. There the former congressman, Adam Clayton Powell&#039 ; s hangout, they had a little cottage there. I remember places in Jamaica where he would write, and Andy and I on occasion would go down, and he would sit and write and sometime people would even loan him house that was staff, and he would sit and write and we would over lunch read what he had written as he was writing in some of his books, read and go over the chapter that he had written during the morning. I got to go with him to Europe to Oslo, Norway, when he got the Nobel Peace Prize, and there were about 30 of us in the entourage, and we went in two separate planes, about 15 on each plane, but I did get to go to Europe with him for the Nobel Peace Prize. HUNTLEY: Yes. There was a certain amount of tension in the movement early, because I think it was Stokely and people that were in SNCC who opposed the war earlier than Martin Luther King and SCLC, the day though that he made his announcement, that he was in opposition to the war. Were you at the service that morning? Or, do you remember the dynamics that were taking place during that time in him. Because it really appears that he was agonizing over, you know--. COTTON: Whether he would come out against the war? HUNTLEY: Yes. COTTON: The Vietnam War? HUNTLEY: Right. COTTON: He made a major speech in New York at the, I think it was at Riverside, a major speech. I was there when he made the major speech. That&#039 ; s the time that it got great publicity, as I recall, when he made, excuse me I think there were either more cameras or something. HUNTLEY: Yes. He did the same thing --.. COTTON: In Atlanta. I am sure I was there, that&#039 ; s kind of, I don&#039 ; t know why I am not remembering the New York one, because I was pretty much everywhere. I am sure I was in Atlanta. I am sure I was around. HUNTLEY: Those days coming up to that. Were there discussions among you about that? COTTON: Oh yes, yes. I was part of some of the actual arguments among the staff. He did agonize over whether he should make that, not just among the staff, but also board members. As a matter of fact, one of the most painful experiences that Dr. King had around that, coming out against the war was the circulation of the letter signed by supposedly by the board, asking him, telling him not to speak out against the war, that that was not our place. And this is in-house criticism or advice not to speak out against the war, and I loved this line. He said, at some point when he was getting criticism from everywhere, what we know the line was quoted a lot, &quot ; injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere,&quot ; and he said that in relationship to that war. And he had been studying what the Vietnamese people had gone through for even so many decades, being oppressed by one nation after the other, and he was so committed against the evil of that war. But also when that letter was circulated supposedly coming from the board, but we know really, I guess the real source of the letter that got circulated, it was really painful because it was signed by someone who was actually kind of a family friend, Marian Logan, who was on the board. She was also a family friend. I have a feeling that she is sad that she signed the letter for the board, but to get that from a friend, but Dr. King said, &quot ; If I am the last lone voice speaking out against the war, then I will do.&quot ; He didn&#039 ; t back down a bit, but it was painful to hear criticism coming from such close quarters in-house. HUNTLEY: Of course, there were criticism that suggested that what did Dr. King know about international affairs. He was a Southern Baptist minister, and of course, he would, in fact answer that with the whole question of an injustice any place is an injustice every place. COTTON: Yes, he said that on more than one occasion and made the same point. He made the same point in relation to criticism of his being an outsider. You know, after a group of ministers wrote the letter, and of course, Dr. King&#039 ; s famous letter from a Birmingham jail, I think give such a wonderful analysis and response to criticism of working in a place other than where he lived. HUNTLEY: Some suggest that Dr. King became more threatened after he had made the speech against the war, and then he started to talk about the necessity of poor people, blacks and white, and Appalachian whites come together to develop a movement. COTTON: Yes. HUNTLEY: That created a difficulty for some folk that and the threats escalated. COTTON: The threats escalated on the heels of the anti-Vietnam war coming out statement. Threats on his life did, indeed, escalate. Threats escalated, and this was happening, you know, during the same time frame of threats escalated after the announcement of the poor people&#039 ; s campaign that is bringing now all poor together, and one of the stories I am telling in my book about that is a white Appalachian preacher who called the SCLC offices one day and said, &quot ; hello, my name is preacher Red, and I want to talk to somebody that is high up in SCLC,&quot ; and interestingly I said, &quot ; well, let me see if I can find somebody high up,&quot ; and I went to talk to Andy. I don&#039 ; t know if Andy will remember this, I said, &quot ; here is somebody on the phone who wants to talk to somebody high up, and he says his name is preacher Red.&quot ; Andy said, &quot ; well, ask him if you are high up enough?&quot ; But the women&#039 ; s movement hadn&#039 ; t happened then, otherwise I would have said, well, I am high up enough? Today I would just take the call. But I did meet with this white preacher from Appalachia. We went to Pascual&#039 ; s Motel, so it just been, well that was the black motel, and the place for us to go eat and black and white get together in peace. HUNTLEY: And this was the preacher from Appalachia? COTTON: Yes. And what he said was, &quot ; I just want you to know that I have hated Dr. King. I hate Dr. King.&quot ; He put in present tense, and I said, well, what do you mean? Why? You know, he wasn&#039 ; t threatening to me. He said, &quot ; because he is leaving us out.&quot ; And that was very moving even as I think about it now. We have the same needs he said, and as Dr. King, the same need for the kind for the kind of leadership that Dr. King is giving to you all and your people, and we are left out. The poor fellow, he didn&#039 ; t know where to go or what to do, but he saw something going on, and you could tell he was afraid of it. It was sort of an attitude. He was nervous. HUNTLEY: Was this when Dr. King expanded? COTTON: Oh, we hired, I am blocking on the young man&#039 ; s name, a white fellow on my staff to begin organizing. We started to recruit in Appalachia. We hired a white fellow to go into Appalachia to recruit people to come to the citizen training workshops because they had to get the background. They had to understand nonviolence. They had to understand why fighting for the right to vote was so much a part of the dynamics of the movement. It wasn&#039 ; t just about having a demonstration, and I always sort of get my dandruff up when people talk about the movement, as a lot of demonstrations. It was so much more than a big demonstration, but folk see the marches on the television and they think that was all that the movement was about. They don&#039 ; t know the planning and the basic goal was to really rearrange the social order in this country, and to, as Dr. Vincent Harding at the Iliff School in Theology puts it to advanced democracy in this country. It is what that movement was about. So it was just so much more. So, the people, they had to come through training, and I have just burst into tears when I think about the first time a group of white folk came from Appalachia now after all these years to Dorchester Center to a citizenship education workshop. HUNTLEY: By this time Dr. King was bigger than life. COTTON: Yes. HUNTLEY: He was the focus. Of course, his assassination. All kinds of questions that are raised. Did the movement die with Dr. King in 1968? COTTON: The movement did not die with Dr. King in 1968. I could not possibly use that phrase. And I know some people do see it that way. But I think that I so see that movement and let me say that phase of the struggle to advance democracy. I see it as a period and as a phase for our struggle for democracy. I see it as a phase that couldn&#039 ; t possibly continue. There is no way that we could have kept the momentum the way that it was at that time. I think it was neither physically nor emotionally possible to move at that pace and to continue at the same time. I think even if Dr. King had lived, I think it would have taken--., it was evolving. It would have had to take a different turn. Even Dr. King was saying this, and I even said this very broadly. He was even thinking that maybe I should take some sabbatical, and he talked about that. He talked about that to me, and I don&#039 ; t know who else he said that to. But he was pondering, really where do we go from here, and thinking that maybe he needed to pull away. Dr. King was very clear and said this. There were riots happening in some places, and again, people speak of riots that occurred in Watts or wherever, and then they call Dr. King and put out the fires that were, and he had to say on more than one occasion, I am not a fireman. And that is not how he worked, that was not what the movement is about. It was getting people in motion and using the nonviolent perspective to organize people and to move us forward. So, my sense is that-- to give a quick example, when ultimately, Andy Young decided to run for congress. To me that was part of the movement. You can&#039 ; t just demonstrate all the rest of your life, you know, and people also get older. But it is evolving, so you go on to other phases, and I think if Dr. King had lived, there probably at some, have been some structure that helped us really move into a way of looking the economics, which is what Dr. King was, that what the poor people&#039 ; s campaign was about. Lets look at the economic underpinning of this apartheid system that has been so oppressive and poor people in general, and so it was evolving. So, who knows, we might have started pulling in economist, and maybe, we don&#039 ; t know. But, I know that it couldn&#039 ; t have stayed the same. Like it didn&#039 ; t stay the same from the early days of the sit-in movement to 1968. The sit-in movement when those students sat-in in Greensboro, North Carolina, in 1960, but things happened. You know, all the protest activity in all of these places, things changed, and we became clearer and clearer on where we needed to go in the movement. HUNTLEY: You know, you have been very gracious with your time, and I certainly appreciate it. I don&#039 ; t where you are today. We could talk for another three hours. I am sure, but I really appreciate you taking your time out and coming to sit with us. So the next time that you are in town, we will have to continue this. COTTON: Yes and will talk about what I am doing now in terms now of setting up and coordinating convening what we are calling the National Citizenship School, to look at what civic functioning means for the 21st century. No longer do we have to help black folk in mass understand that we can all not be victims but be a part of this wonderful democracy that we have, with its flaws and work on what we need to work on for now. HUNTLEY: Thank you, Ms. Cotton for being so generous. COTTON: Thank you for having me here. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=DCotton1999.xml DCotton1999.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dorothy Cotton Description An account of the resource Dorothy Cotton discusses working with Dr. King to establish the Southern Christian Leadership Conference in Atlanta. She continued to work and travel with Dr. King, including organizing with the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, until his assassination. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19990422C Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.) Southern Christian Leadership Conference Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-04-22 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/e8c8fd5df45274b726dedaed9b88ec03.jpg c227a630ad448bf870f068c2523251c6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Elizabeth Fitts OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=EFitts1995.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.3 July 19, 1995 Dr. Elizabeth Fitts Interviewed on July 19, 1995 19950719F 0:56:15 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Raines Whittaker Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Southern Christian Leadership Conference Elizabeth Fitts Horace Huntley Video 1:|11(3)|44(7)|72(11)|91(6)|111(4)|132(6)|149(5)|164(12)|187(6)|207(7)|218(2)|235(9)|249(2)|265(8)|281(8)|295(15)|311(1)|330(6)|345(10)|365(7)|383(17)|397(13)|419(7)|439(15)|467(16)|487(2)|502(10)|514(1)|529(18)|542(14)|554(6)|572(1)|588(12)|610(5)|623(3)|640(2)|656(4)|671(4)|688(7)|698(4)|717(9)|739(5)|759(16)|774(8)|791(5)|806(4)|817(13)|829(10)|841(1)|852(10)|874(2)|888(2)|907(1)|923(11)|936(8) 0 https://youtu.be/8C4Npbqr6sw YouTube video English 23 Introduction to the Interview This is an interview with Dr. Elizabeth Hayes Fitts for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Introduction to the interview. African American history ; African Americans--Civil rights--History 33.516200, -86.813870 18 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute http://www.bcri.org Website of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute 40 Biographical Background I just want to start by asking some general questions about background. Brief background about her family. African American families African American history ; Birmingham (Ala.) 99 Elementary School Where did you start your schooling, the first grade? Overview of where she went to school. African American children--Education ; African American elementary schools African American history ; Birmingham (Ala.) 155 Memories of Childhood What do you remember about your community at that time, just growing up in Honeysuckle Circle? Reflections on her community in childhood. African American families African American history 210 Parents' Background What kind of occupations did your parents have? Her parents worked various occupations. African American families African American history ; Birmingham (Ala.) 356 High School Years And you went on to what high school? Her years at Ullman High School. African American high school students African American history ; Birmingham (Ala.) https://www.bhamwiki.com/w/Ullman_High_School History information on Ullman High School 499 First Year of College What did you do after you finished high school? She attended Miles College for one year. African American college students ; America's historically Black colleges and universities African American history ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Miles College 33.480976, -86.908882 12 Miles College https://www.bhamwiki.com/w/Miles_College Miles College information 596 Getting Involved in the Civil Rights Movement So then you were here at Miles when, during the early, mid-60s, the demonstrations of '63 came along. She became involved in civil rights during college and then dropped out to participate in the movement. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Miles College African American history ; Civil rights movement 906 Mass Meetings While you were a student though, you did become active and you said that you attended mass meetings. She recalls some people involved in mass meetings and what they were like. African American civil rights workers African Americans--Civil rights ; Civil rights movement 1031 First Civil Rights Demonstration Obviously those times were some rather turbulent times. Do you remember the first time that you participated in a demonstration? Her first demonstration was influenced by her interaction with the police. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama African Americans--Civil rights ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Civil rights--History 1155 Experience of Violence in Virginia Were you ever attacked, physically attacked or hit or beaten during the demonstrations? Someone she was with was beaten by police in Virginia. Danville (Va.) African Americans--Civil rights ; Police brutality--United States 36.585492, -79.395838 11 Danville, VA 1231 Arrested in Birmingham Looking at Birmingham, your arrest. You were arrested once in Birmingham? She was in jail for four days in appalling conditions. African American women civil rights workers African American civil rights workers ; African American women ; Arrest--United States 1529 Relationships within the Movement So, between April 1st and probably May 11th or May 12th there were demonstrations practically every day consistently. She developed close relationships through her involvement. African American civil rights workers ; African Americans--Civil rights--History 1592 Traveling the South for Meetings What were the circumstances of your travel? She traveled the south with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) doing voter registration. African American civil rights workers ; Southern States--History African Americans--Civil rights ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference ; Voter registration 1707 Leaving College for the Movement You joined the staff and what did your parents say about that involvement? To leave Birmingham, to leave school and get involved in the Movement at that level. She had to explain to her mother that civil rights work was more important than school. African American civil rights workers ; African American families African American history 1803 First Campaign on the SCLC Staff What was your first campaign after leaving Birmingham and going and joining the SCLC staff? She went with the SCLC to Texas for voter registration. African American history ; African American women civil rights workers ; Orange (Tex.) ; Southern States--History Civil rights movement ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference ; Voter registration 30.092829, -93.736664 11 Orange, TX 1897 Challenges of Desegregating Businesses in Texas You mentioned Danville, Virginia. Tell me about that experience because that seemed to have been, well Danville, of course, is very well noted for it's, the educational process of defiance of education in the 50s. While in Texas, she faced Black-owned businesses that only served whites. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States African Americans--Segregation ; Civil rights movement ; Voter registration 2069 Conditions of Poverty and Police Violence in Louisiana I know of the place. Tell me about the experience? She encountered Black people living in slavery-era conditions on a plantation and recalls a young girl being killed by police. African Americans--Civil rights ; African Americans--History ; Police brutality ; Poverty--United States 29.479365, -89.687757 11 Plaquemines Parish, LA 2205 Encounter with Police in Virginia You've mentioned a number of places. And I wanted to ask you a question about Danville. She explains the conditions that led her to be in the police station where the man was beaten. Danville (Va.) African American history ; Civil rights movement ; Police brutality 2253 Experiences with the SCLC Are there other occasions that sort of stand out in your mind in terms of your organizing voter registration or whatever else may have been happening with SCLC? She mentions the noteworthy moments with the SCLC. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States Civil rights movement ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference ; Voter registration 2308 Return to College at the Tuskegee Institute You remained on the staff of SCLC for a year and then you went back to school? She went back to school in 1964 and continued to be involved in the movement. African American women college students ; America's historically Black colleges and universities African American history ; Alabama--History ; Civil rights movement ; Racism--United States ; Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.) ; Tuskegee (Ala.) 32.431172, -85.707285 12 Tuskegee University 2455 The March in Selma So you then participated in the Selma march? She participated in the Selma march and witnessed police violence. African American college students--Political activity ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Police brutality--United States African American history ; African Americans--Civil rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement ; Selma (Ala.) ; Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) 2546 Organizing at Tuskegee How did that organization process take place on Tuskegee's campus? She participated in civil rights demonstrations and student activism while in college. African American college students--Political activity ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama African Americans--Civil rights ; Alabama--History ; Civil rights movement ; Tuskegee (Ala.) 2730 Personal Impact of Activism How do you think your activism impacted upon your life since then? Today she is not the same as before and sees activism differently. Alabama State University African American history ; African Americans--Civil rights--History ; Civil rights in a new era 2848 Reflections on the Movement for Today Where do you see the Movement today? Education is not helping to create a new generation of civil rights leaders. African American college teachers ; African American leaders ; University of Alabama African American history ; African Americans--Civil rights--History ; African Americans--Education ; Civil rights in a new era ; Civil rights movement 3178 Lack of History Education in Present Day But, I teach a group of students who barely know who Dr. King was. The education system is still failing Black students. African American college students ; Education, Higher--Curricula--United States African American history ; African Americans--Civil rights--History ; African Americans--Education Oral History Dr. Elizabeth Fitts discusses being on the SCLC staff and traveling around the South organizing voter registration. She left college to join the Movement and participated in the Selma march. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Dr. Elizabeth Hayes Fitts for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is July 19, 1995. Thank you, Dr. Fitts for driving all the way from Montgomery to be with us today. FITTS: It&#039 ; s my pleasure. HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking some general questions about background. Tell me just a bit about your parents. Where were your parents from? FITTS: My mother is originally from just below Montgomery in a little place call Hope Hull. Just about everybody in that area knows the Dean family. There were eight children in that family, so everybody in that area basically knows my mother. My stepfather is from Ohio, I think. I don&#039 ; t know too much about all of his relatives. But they&#039 ; ve been in the Birmingham area for about 47 years. HUNTLEY: So did they meet in Birmingham? FITTS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And how many brothers and sisters do you have? FITTS: I have two brothers. HUNTLEY: Two brothers? FITTS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you are the... FITTS: I am the oldest. HUNTLEY: The oldest. Well, I know you gave your brothers a hard time. FITTS: They gave me the hard time. HUNTLEY: Where did you start your schooling, the first grade? FITTS: I did first grade at a school called Hooper City High. HUNTLEY: Hooper City. Was Hooper City then K or 1 through 12? FITTS: I think it was 1 through 12. I don&#039 ; t even know if it&#039 ; s still there because that&#039 ; s been a long time ago. HUNTLEY: No. The school is not still there. The community is there. FITTS: Right. HUNTLEY: I remember we played Hooper City when I was in high school. And you went from Hooper City to what school? FITTS: Center Street Elementary. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right here in the city. Hooper City was a county school. FITTS: Right. Exactly. HUNTLEY: Your family moved from Hooper City to Titusville? FITTS: In Honeysuckle Circle. HUNTLEY: You moved up in the world. FITTS: A bit, yes. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your community at that time, just growing up in Honeysuckle Circle? FITTS: It was a much safer place to be than it is today. As children we could get out in the street. We used to have relay races in the afternoons. Everybody watched out for everybody else. And your neighbors were just like your parents also. If they caught you doing something wrong they didn&#039 ; t just tell your mother. Sometimes they could take the responsibility for spanking too. Or if they told your parents, sometimes you&#039 ; d get two spankings. One from the neighbor and, then one at home. HUNTLEY: It takes a whole village to raise a child. FITTS: That&#039 ; s right. So it was a very good community. Many of the people in that area have died out. Some of them are still there and it&#039 ; s good to go by and wave at the older ones that you remember from your childhood. HUNTLEY: What kind of occupations did your parents have? FITTS: My mother started out doing domestic work. Then, in later years she became a monogrammer because she was a very good seamstress. She used to make all my clothing, all the drapes for the house. She worked at a shop, the Coca-Cola labels that you see, the people who work for the different franchises here in Birmingham, she would make all the labels for the uniforms. My stepfather worked for Ryder Trucking Company. HUNTLEY: Did your mother work at home or did she work for Coca-Cola? FITTS: It was similar to a laundry mat or something. They had the contract to do the labels for these different companies in the area. HUNTLEY: What did your stepfather do for Ryder? Did he drive? FITTS: No. He handled freight, the loading of the various trucks or whatever. HUNTLEY: I see. How much education did they have? FITTS: My mother, to be the smart woman that she is, never really finished high school. Being from the Hope Hull, Montgomery area, she lived on a farm and back in those days, in many instances, even if you were in school, very often you had to leave during harvesting season to assist with the planting or whatever. My stepfather did complete high school but that&#039 ; s about the extent of his education. HUNTLEY: What about others in your community? Other occupations in the community that you lived in? FITTS: Many of the women, if I remember, were domestic workers. Mrs. Hendricks, whom I&#039 ; m sure you&#039 ; re familiar with, worked with the federal government until retirement, I think. There was Ms. Harris who was a school teacher. So you know there were various numbers of... HUNTLEY: It&#039 ; s a variety of occupations in the community. FITTS: Exactly. HUNTLEY: I remember growing up on the western section of Birmingham and we thought that everyone that lived in the Honeysuckle Circle area, they were rich because you had those pretty brick homes. That was one of our aspirations, to be able to move to the Circle. FITTS: Well, we do have to, you know, we owe our stepfather a lot for putting us in that area, so we are very grateful to him for that. HUNTLEY: And you went on to what high school? FITTS: I attended Ullman High School. HUNTLEY: Ullman High School? FITTS: Yes. George C. Bell. HUNTLEY: What kind of memories do you have of your experiences at Ullman? FITTS: I still see a few of my classmates occasionally. I&#039 ; ve not had the opportunity to come back for class reunions or whatever. But, my fondest memory is of George C. Bell, the principal. And, I guess it&#039 ; s because I went to my senior year without missing a day because I loved going to school. If I was ill, mother would say &quot ; Bunny, stay home.&quot ; That&#039 ; s what they called me, Bunny. I&#039 ; d stay home and soon as she went to work then I would get up and go to school. And I was supposed to get that perfect attendance record at graduation and I remember him teasing me saying you&#039 ; ve gone this far, now don&#039 ; t come to the last day and be absent. But it was also George C. Bell who entered me in various oratorical contests. And he would meet me in the hall and make me stand there and say my presentation whether it was the &quot ; Creation&quot ; or whatever it was I was doing for that contest. And it was George C. Bell who made me articulate and enunciate and win several oratorical contests. HUNTLEY: So you have very fond memories then of George C. Bell and Ullman High School? FITTS: Unlike a lot of other classmates of mine. Because he could be very dictatorial, tyrannical. He did not play at all. But very fond memories of him. HUNTLEY: Ullman High being on the southside of town versus Parker High on the north side, do you remember any rivalry between the two schools? FITTS: Football, yes. Football rivalry. I have a few friends who attended Parker High. Betty Gamble who is currently a captain on the police force here and her brother Ed Gamble who is in Oklahoma. I have cousins who also attended Parker. But yes, I remember the football rivalry. As a matter of fact, I think there were several fights that broke out at these football games because of that school rivalry. HUNTLEY: That was probably the number one rival in the county was Parker and Ullman. FITTS: Exactly. HUNTLEY: What did you do after you finished high school? FITTS: I came to Miles actually. I attended this university for one year. As a matter of fact, the current mayor taught biology here. He was my biology teacher here at Miles. HUNTLEY: Was biology your major? FITTS: No. Undergraduate I majored in English. HUNTLEY: So what was the transition like from high school at Ullman to college here at Miles? FITTS: It was a very easy transition for me because several of my classmates. Hazel Loretta Brown and Cleopatra Gibson, the three of us would commute everyday from the Birmingham area to Miles. And we made quite a few friends. Although I couldn&#039 ; t play an instrument, I was part of the band. HUNTLEY: How were you part of the band without playing? FITTS: I carried a trumpet. Boss is what we used to call the band director then. He said his band was a marching band and he took pride in the fact that we were good marchers. So I was on the tail end of the trumpet section, carrying a trumpet. HUNTLEY: So, if we see that young woman on the tail end, she&#039 ; s in perfect step but she hadn&#039 ; t played a note. FITTS: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: You say you commuted. Did you drive? FITTS: Yes. We drove. Well, Cleo drove. She was the only one with a car. HUNTLEY: All right. I was wondering if all of you had cars at that time. So then you were here at Miles during the early, mid-60s, the demonstrations of &#039 ; 63 came along. How in fact did you get involved in the Movement? FITTS: I remember Andrew Young and James Bevel and I think Hosea Williams came out to an assembly to speak to the students here at Miles. And, their ultimate aim was to get students involved in the Movement. They were having a mass meeting that night and we were being invited. And I can remember my fellow classmates sitting around being very, well I thought, very apathetic toward what they were saying. As a matter of fact, several of my classmates said to me that they were not going to get involved. That they felt that getting an education was more important. And, of course, I could not argue with that. I made the choice. Their apathy made me jump to the microphone and do my spiel concerning their apathy. Telling them why I thought we should participate in the Movement by attending these mass meetings and at least giving the people a chance to see what they have to say. But many of them told me that it was up to me. That I could go on and be a part of, but they were going to stay here and get their education. And for the most part, most of them did. HUNTLEY: Were there others that did join you and became actively involved? FITTS: I&#039 ; m certain that there were because at the time I didn&#039 ; t know everybody here on the campus, but with the group that I ran around with, I was the only one. HUNTLEY: The previous year, that was probably &#039 ; 62-63 school year? FITTS: Yes. HUNTLEY: So that year, then there was a Selective Buying Campaign that Miles College students took part in. Were you at all associated with that? FITTS: Yes. I was. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me a little about how all that evolved? FITTS: Well, if I can remember, that&#039 ; s been a long time ago. Those stores or whatever that were not favorable toward our goals and doing whatever it was we were trying to do at the time, our idea was not to buy from those stores. Of course, we all have to live, we all needed things, so selective buying meant that you dealt with those people who were for the cause that we were. HUNTLEY: And were there issues on campus that you had been involved in prior to Hosea Williams and Young and Bevill coming out? Were you active in student government. Anything other than the band at that particular time? FITTS: No. Just the band. The interesting thing is in listening to those guys, I&#039 ; ve always been a people person, and my husband teases me now when we watch football or baseball, it doesn&#039 ; t matter what team is playing, I&#039 ; m always going to go for the underdog. And in my mind, as a race, we were the underdog. And if there were people out there trying to do something about it, then I wanted to be a part of it. Even though I was not involved in any, I was not a part of the NAACP. I was not a part of anything. But their message touched me. HUNTLEY: Immediately? FITTS: Immediately. And their suggestion was that we attend the mass meeting that night. And I can&#039 ; t remember but I think it was going to be held at Sixth Avenue Baptist Church or something like that. But they invited us to attend that mass meeting and learn more about the Movement so that we could become involved. And just listening to their Movement made me want to know more. And, from that first mass meeting on, whatever I could do to be a part of that Movement, I was there. HUNTLEY: Were teachers of your supportive of your position of getting involved or do you remember? FITTS: I can remember some or the teachers saying things that you do what you want to do as long as you keep up with your studies. To tell you the truth, I found it very difficult to do both. Because once I got involved, I was totally involved. As a matter of fact, I finished that semester and I joined the Movement completely. HUNTLEY: Was that your first semester? FITTS: My first year. I finished that year. HUNTLEY: You finished the year and, then you joined the Movement? FITTS: Yes. HUNTLEY: While you were a student though, you did become active and you said that you attended mass meetings. Can you tell me what a typical mass meeting was like? FITTS: I tried to remember some of the key players. I remember Wyatt Walker, I remember C.T. Vivian. Of course, James Bevill and Andrew Young, these guys would get up initially and we would sing the songs of the Movement, &quot ; We Shall Overcome&quot ; , those kinds of things. Then, Dr. King was not at every mass meeting because he traveled quite a bit. But sometimes a mass meeting would be conducted by some local guys or it would be conducted by Andrew Young or Bevill or whomever. And they would just map out strategies, what it was we intended to do. I don&#039 ; t know if you remember there was a big day called &quot ; D&quot ; Day here in Birmingham where all the students turned out or whatever. But strategies were talked about during many of these mass meetings. Sometimes it was just a sermon, you know, talking about what was going on and a lot of singing and getting people involved more than anything else. HUNTLEY: Were you able then to attract other friends to attend the meetings with you and were they impacted upon in the same manner that you? FITTS: The friends that I had that were with me here at Miles, they never became a part of the Movement. Now, of course, I made a lot of friends as a result of being in the Movement, but the friends that I had, people that I called friends, were never part of the Movement. Now, I&#039 ; ve had some friends to come up later and to pretend to have been a part of the Movement, but no, they didn&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s interesting. You&#039 ; re saying there were people who were not involved but 20 years later they were very much participants according to them. FITTS: Exactly. Yes. HUNTLEY: Obviously those times were some rather turbulent times. Do you remember the first time that you participated in a demonstration? FITTS: Yes I remember the first time. It was a very frightening experience for me. I can remember the policemen, I can remember the paddy wagons. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the policemen? FITTS: They were very intimidating. They had the billy clubs or night sticks or whatever they&#039 ; re called now. And they had no compassion. I think in the whole time I was a part of that Movement I only met one policeman that seemed to have had any kind of compassion. HUNTLEY: How was he different? How do you mean? FITTS: That was during the &quot ; D&quot ; Day demonstrations where one group would go to jail and they&#039 ; d put them in jail and, then another group would start out. To the point where they didn&#039 ; t have places to put us. They had us all at the fair grounds and everywhere else. One policeman stopped me and asked me, &quot ; Well, when is this going to end?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, do we have our freedom yet?&quot ; He says, &quot ; Well, I notice that you guys seem to have all the determination in the world, and to tell you the truth, I&#039 ; m tired.&quot ; He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ve worn out two pair of shoes.&quot ; He said, &quot ; I wish you could have your freedom just to stop this.&quot ; And he was very sincere about it. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s very interesting. Usually when I&#039 ; m talking with people, they don&#039 ; t get the personal side of the police. It&#039 ; s usually a collected image. FITTS: I see. I see. I can remember that one. The only one I remember. I don&#039 ; t remember his name, but I do remember that one because normally they wouldn&#039 ; t even stop to talk to you, but this one did. HUNTLEY: What kind of impact did that have on you? FITTS: Well it made me know that everybody didn&#039 ; t feel the way the &quot ; total&quot ; police force did and that means something. If you can convert one, or get one, maybe he can do some other converting. HUNTLEY: Were you ever attacked, physically attacked or hit or beaten during the demonstrations? FITTS: The only time I can remember is when, I think we were in Danville, Virginia. I was not the one being beaten. There was a young man with me and I can&#039 ; t remember his name now, but we had been taken to the police force and I guess the only reason I was not beaten is, maybe because I was female, I don&#039 ; t know. But we were trapped in the elevator and the policeman used his billy club to beat this young man while we were trapped in the elevator and, then, he simply put it back into the holder and walked away, like nothing had happened. HUNTLEY: How many were on the elevator? FITTS: It was just three of us. Just the three of us. This same young man and his name still escapes me right now. But that night, I think there were two or three policemen broke glass up and down the railroad track and made him take his shoes off and run on the broken glass. HUNTLEY: Turbulent times. FITTS: Yes. We were called rabble rousers. And in any city we went into we were bound to be harassed at any given time. HUNTLEY: Looking at Birmingham, your arrest. You were arrested once in Birmingham? FITTS: Yes. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances of your arrest? FITTS: That was the famous Sunday, I think it was around Easter. That was the time when Dr. King&#039 ; s letter from the Birmingham jail came out. There were so many of us. There were a lot of older women who also went to jail with us. It was not a pretty picture. We had cots, metal cots to sleep on. That bothered me. Like I say, I&#039 ; m a people person. HUNTLEY: Where were you housed? FITTS: In the Birmingham jail. Dr. King and those were someplace else. Bernard Lee and all these guys were there. All these older women, like I was saying, were in jail with me. We had metal cots to sleep on. No mattress, just the metal cots. So our thing was, this is wrong. These people need better accommodations. There was one toilet sitting over in the corner so we had to shield each other whenever you had to use the restroom, we used our coats or whatever. But the sleeping conditions is what bothered me more than anything else. That these older women had to lie on metal cots. So what we did was, we used our coats, those of us who had our coats there, to pad the metal cots and we bugged the wardens and whoever else we could get their attention to bring Kotex. I mean, they didn&#039 ; t know the difference. What we needed them for. So we just padded the beds with all these Kotex napkins for these older women to sleep on. HUNTLEY: How long did you remain there? FITTS: We were there four days. HUNTLEY: Four days. FITTS: Four days. HUNTLEY: And, what sticks out in your mind most are the cots? FITTS: Exactly. HUNTLEY: What about the personal treatment? FITTS: The food was horrible. I do remember that. We had some brown looking grits that were very, very runny. What I now know are powdered eggs. Very, very hard biscuits and that was about the extent of it. Nobody ever came up to really check on us, we were just there, except when we would bang on the bars in order to get their attention to get those supplies that I was just telling you about. That was the only contact we really had. HUNTLEY: What was the reaction of your parents about your involvement? FITTS: My stepfather never said that much about it. My mother was horrified. Horrified is probably not the best word. She was afraid. HUNTLEY: For your safety? FITTS: Yes. Exactly. And she had cried and she said, &quot ; Well, Bunny, I know you got to do what you got to do, but don&#039 ; t expect me to sit up all night waiting on you.&quot ; HUNTLEY: And she probably did. FITTS: And, that night when I got out of the jail, she was sitting there waiting on me. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances of your being released? FITTS: We all had to go to court and we were fingerprinted, our pictures were taken. So, if they still have those records, I guess I have a little record downtown. But, we all had to go to court. And, if I remember correctly, I can&#039 ; t remember that judge&#039 ; s name. But that day we were in court and that judge had a heart attack. HUNTLEY: And died? FITTS: He died. He certainly did. HUNTLEY: And, then you guys were put back in jail, I believe? FITTS: For a time. HUNTLEY: I believe Mrs. Hendricks daughter... FITTS: Faye. HUNTLEY: ...told me about that as well. Did you know most of the people that were in jail with you at the time? FITTS: I didn&#039 ; t know any of them. HUNTLEY: Didn&#039 ; t know anyone? FITTS: No. I didn&#039 ; t know any of them. HUNTLEY: I&#039 ; ve interviewed a number of people and one person in particular suggested to me that she went to jail and she wanted to go to jail, but once she got there she just said it was terrible and she had vowed that she would never go to jail again because of the experience that she had. How did it impact upon you? Did you have the idea that you never wanted to go back jail? You would not demonstrate again because of that possibility of going back? FITTS: No. Interestingly enough, every demonstration they had, I was right there. It&#039 ; s just that that&#039 ; s the only time I was arrested. But I was willing to go back. Whatever it took. Whatever it took, I was willing to do that. HUNTLEY: So, between April 1st and probably May 11th or May 12th there were demonstrations practically every day consistently. FITTS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you were involved in many of those? FITTS: Yes. HUNTLEY: But you were also very closely associated with Andrew Young and even Dr. King and others. Tell me about the relationships that developed as a result of your being so active. FITTS: I guess I did become very close to the administrative staff because when I left Birmingham, I went to Atlanta where the national headquarters is and that&#039 ; s where I became very good friends with Dorothy Cotton, Dr. King, who could never remember my name, he always called me Liz Taylor, because he couldn&#039 ; t remember Hayes for some reason. I travelled a lot with Andrew Young and James Bevill going from one point to the other. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances of your travel? FITTS: To do mass meetings. There were three other fellows that I used to work very closely with in the Movement. We all became friends and we were called SCLC&#039 ; s crackpot voter registration team. And sometimes these guys and I would travel together or I&#039 ; d travel with Andrew Young and Jim Bevill to the various spots, wherever we were going to have mass meetings. Selma, we&#039 ; ve gone as far as Texas. Now, I didn&#039 ; t go there with Andy and Bevill, I went there with the other three guys, the crackpot team as they called us. Just to do voter registration. HUNTLEY: How did that process really begin? We know that you were involved here in Birmingham in &#039 ; 63. You were a freshman in college at the time. What was the link? FITTS: Dr. King used to have what he called retreats. Some of them were held in Atlanta, various places. I can remember having one in Frogmore, South Carolina. But at these retreats, it was his effort to regroup, so to speak. Make sure that he kept his movement non-violent or whatever. He even required us to have reading materials. In other words, material that would motivate us to stay focused or whatever. And it was at one of the retreats that I decided to go full force and that&#039 ; s where I met C. T. Vivian and Wyatt Walker and all these other guys, Dorothy Cotton. I think that was when I really got to meet Dr. King, you know, to a point where I could talk to him and really get to know him better. HUNTLEY: Were you actually on the staff? FITTS: Yes. Our crackpot team was part of the staff. HUNTLEY: You joined the staff and what did your parents say about that involvement? To leave Birmingham, to leave school and get involved in the Movement at that level. FITTS: My mother did not want that. It was a struggle for her to even have me in school. As a matter of fact, somewhere down the line I&#039 ; ll probably tell you that it bothered me that she had to borrow money for me to go to school. So I decided that school is important but this was more important to me. And I had to sit down and express to her my feelings about what I was doing. And, the fact that I thought what we were doing could make a difference, not just for me, but for the entire Black race, which was my ultimate aim. I didn&#039 ; t know where this thing was going to go. I didn&#039 ; t know if some of us would be killed. But I knew in my heart that I had to stay with it for as long as I could. So, in the end, she gave in. She worried a lot. I had to constantly write. She expected a letter at least twice a week so that she would know that I was all right. She knew I didn&#039 ; t have the money to call. But I had to write at least twice a week so that she&#039 ; d know that I was all right. HUNTLEY: This was evidently a decision that was made between, well after or during your freshman year, which meant that you would not return to school for your sophomore year. What was your first campaign after leaving Birmingham and going and joining the SCLC staff? FITTS: Well, that&#039 ; s when Andrew Young and Bevill and Dr. King and those got together and they bought us a white van. And, in that white van it was Andrew Marsett, James Orange and a young man that we called sexy, I can&#039 ; t remember his name now. But we called him sexy. The four of us, I think our first project was in Orange, Texas. I think there&#039 ; s a place called Orange, Texas. Some part of Texas. Our contact person there was Barbara Jordan, the attorney, a very powerful woman. She smoked a tiny little pipe. I was intimidated by her initially. But she was our contact person. She put us in touch with other members in the community who would give us housing and a place to stay and we did voter registration in Texas. That was our first project. HUNTLEY: Was she actively involved in that or was she simply a contact person? I guess she would not have been in the legislature at that early time. FITTS: No. She was just a lawyer in that town at the time. She was just our contact person. She was not actively involved in anything else that we were doing, but she put us in contact with those people who would assist us in whatever we needed. HUNTLEY: And she did make an impression upon you? FITTS: Oh, yes. A powerful woman. HUNTLEY: You mentioned Danville, Virginia. Tell me about that experience because that seemed to have been, well Danville, of course, is very well noted for it&#039 ; s, the educational process of defiance of education in the 50s. Were you there for voter registration? FITTS: Yes. But you know the interesting thing is, I didn&#039 ; t find it as difficult in Danville as I did in Texas. Reason being in Texas we had to demonstrate, you know, rally the people together and, demonstrate against some of our own people. Some of our own people who owned businesses in Texas, like bar-b-que places or whatever, who catered to the White population. HUNTLEY: What do you mean &quot ; catered to them?&quot ; FITTS: Most of their service was geared toward the White population. Their feeling was these are the people with the money and that&#039 ; s what we&#039 ; re in business for, to make money and for the most part, they did not serve Black people. They did not serve Black people in their establishments. So these are some of the people that we had to picket in Texas, even though we were just there for voter registration. When we found these things going on, then, of course, we rallied some people together and we picketed our own people in order that, you know, that they understood where we were coming from. These are your brothers, you need to deal with them first. HUNTLEY: You had experience in selective buying in Birmingham? FITTS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did that experience work for you in Texas in the same way that it did here? FITTS: Yes. We knew exactly what to do. We got together that night. We got our poster boards. We made up our signs and by the time we finished, they were willing to serve anybody and everybody. Because people generally were not going to cross those picket lines. HUNTLEY: So you really then desegregated eating facilities in Texas in &#039 ; 63? FITTS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And many of these were Black owned businesses that catered to Whites? FITTS: Exactly. Danville, Virginia was not that bad. As a matter of fact, I can&#039 ; t remember any serious problems in Danville, Virginia. We were able to register our people. I guess the only bad memory that I have of Danville, Virginia. I had gone back to Danville, Virginia when we got the news that Dr. King had been murdered. So that&#039 ; s the only bad experience or bad memory I have of Danville, Virginia. I have worse memories of a place called Plaqumine Parish, Louisiana. I don&#039 ; t know if you&#039 ; ve heard about that place but that place was horrible. HUNTLEY: I know of the place. Tell me about the experience? FITTS: At that time, it was still in the 60s. We had Blacks living on plantations there. One plantation in particular, this White guy owned the plantation. He had Blacks living in little huts like, with dirt flooring and they used the broom to sweep the inside of the house and the outside and they would cook outside in the big black pots that you probably remember, you know, doing the washing or whatever. They washed and cooked in the same pot. Well, Dr. King had to figure out a way to get these people off that plantation. And, if I can remember correctly, what they did was, they hired a helicopter and dropped handbills over onto that plantation and I can remember hearing them say that there was one old Black man on that plantation who could read. There were younger people there, but one old Black man who could read, who read that handbill and mobilized the people on that plantation and brought them out to a mass meeting. HUNTLEY: This sounds like a concentration camp? FITTS: That&#039 ; s exactly what it was like. Exactly. HUNTLEY: And what were the meetings like when those people came? FITTS: We had some bad experiences there also. The meetings were held in a local Baptist Church. This was a time when the police force taped up their badges and rode horses into the church in order to break up the mass meetings. The badges, of course, were taped so that we could not identify who had done what. As a matter of fact, there was a little 13 year old girl killed at one of those mass meetings because a policeman, on the horse, forced her into a dead end situation and the horse reared up and caved her chest in. HUNTLEY: Now, this is all in 1963? FITTS: &#039 ; 63-64 time frame. HUNTLEY: You&#039 ; ve mentioned a number of places. And I wanted to ask you a question about Danville. You talked about being on the elevator and the policeman beating the young man. What were the circumstances of your being on the elevator with that policeman? FITTS: He had been stopped on a bogus traffic situation and taken in. You know, like I say we were considered rabble rousers. I was in the car with him. HUNTLEY: But you were in the police department on the elevator and the elevator stopped. FITTS: Well, he was bringing us back down after they had done whatever, you know, that they had to do with him and they were bringing us back down. And in bringing us back down, he stopped the elevator. HUNTLEY: I see. Are there other occasions that sort of stand out in your mind in terms of your organizing voter registration or whatever else may have been happening with SCLC? FITTS: I guess I probably hit on the most prevalent that tend to stand out. I guess the thing that really got away with me most was what happened to my friend in Danville, Virginia. Some of the things that we encountered in Plaqumine Parish. Leander Perez I think was the name of the state trooper. We used to call him the head head thumper or something like that. His guys showed no mercy to anybody. But Plaqumine Parish, Louisiana. Of course, the Selma march, that kind of stands out in my mind, but I was a student again, then. HUNTLEY: You remained on the staff of SCLC for a year and then you went back to school? FITTS: Well, let&#039 ; s see. I went back to school in 1964. HUNTLEY: In the fall of &#039 ; 64? FITTS: Yes. I started at Tuskegee Institute. HUNTLEY: How was that transition from being in the field with SCLC back to the classroom? FITTS: It was kind of hard initially. To get acclimated to having to study all the time. And I felt so much older than many of my classmates. I supposed because of the experiences I had had. But at the same time I realized that I did want an education and, then, it got better because we organized a group on campus that we called TIAL. The Tuskegee Institute Advancement League. And we were a civil rights organization then, also. And, I think several, Stokely Carmichael came to speak with us. Jim Farmer came to speak with us. A very good friend of mind, Sammy Young was killed in Tuskegee as a result of some of our actions. As a matter of fact we later found out that some of the White people in Tuskegee had a hit list out. Sammy Young was the first on the list, then Wendell Paris, then Liz Fitts, then Betty Gamble and a whole list of us that they intended to take out. Sammy was just the first. A very smart young man who had become a little bit too outspoken for the White populace in the area. HUNTLEY: Malcolm X came to Tuskegee just before he was assassinated in February of &#039 ; 65. Do you remember that? FITTS: I don&#039 ; t remember his being there. I remember Stokely. I remember Farmer. I remember Forman. Because whenever these guys came to town, because of the little organization that we had, we were always there with them. HUNTLEY: Now, Sammy was also a member of SNCC right? FITTS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you ever get involved with SNCC? FITTS: No. Just whenever they would come to town. We were all in the same struggle, but to join the organization, no. I was just a member of SCLC. HUNTLEY: So you then participated in the Selma march? FITTS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about that. FITTS: It was long. It was tiring. It rained. It was very frightening again because here again the state troopers and all these people showed no mercy. I was not apart, you know, closer to the front. I was not a part of the people who really got the worst end of the situation. But, you know, you have to sympathize and empathize with what&#039 ; s going on behind you because you&#039 ; ve seen these kinds of things take place before so you know what&#039 ; s going to happen. HUNTLEY: You were there on Bloody Sunday? FITTS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you were up front? FITTS: Yes. But I didn&#039 ; t get the beatings for some reason like the rest of them did. I escaped that. I think the only really bad thing that ever happened to me was when they had the dogs and the water hoses here in Birmingham. I got hit with a fire hose a couple of times, but no dog ever bit me. But I was a part of that. But the serious beatings and things of that nature, no I never had to deal with that. HUNTLEY: With your participating in the Selma march, were there a large group of students from Tuskegee that participated? FITTS: Yes. HUNTLEY: That you all had organized? FITTS: Yes. HUNTLEY: How did that organization process take place on Tuskegee&#039 ; s campus? FITTS: At that time, Tuskegee students were very interested in things of that nature. When Sammy was killed it was very easy to mobilize the students around that cause, because everybody knew Sammy. Everybody loved Sammy. So it was very easy to mobilize students around that cause. For the Selma march, It was also again very easy to mobilize them around that march. We were able to get the auditorium. We were able to sell the students on what we wanted to do. As a matter of fact we were even able to get buses in order to transport students. Dr. Foster was not necessarily in favor of. As a matter of fact, I can remember him calling us in as a group, those of us who were members of TIAL. Back in those days girls were not allowed to wear pants on campus. We were not allowed to ride in cars. You know, they had all these restrictions. So we broke a lot of things up at Tuskegee to the point where girls can now wear pants. Girls can ride in cars. Because we&#039 ; d go in his office with our shoulder bags slung on our shoulders, wearing our jeans and our big T-shirts or whatever and we would sit on top of desks in order not to conform to what he wanted us to do. HUNTLEY: Which was not ladylike. FITTS: Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, although he was not necessarily in favor of a lot of things that we were doing, he went along with in many instances. He didn&#039 ; t stop us. I can remember one demonstration we had, we got a telegram from A. G. Gaston, we were demonstrating. I think that was after the death of Sammy. We were all out in the streets demonstrating and A. G. Gaston sent us a telegram saying that we needed to be not in the streets but back in our classrooms. Of course, that didn&#039 ; t stop us either. HUNTLEY: There was a demonstration at Tuskegee where students actually took over a building and I believe the trustees were on the campus at the time? FITTS: Yes. In Dorothy Hall. HUNTLEY: Were you a part of that? FITTS: Yes. Every demonstration they had at Tuskegee I was there. I was a part of it. Even when we sat in the streets. They had the policeman to stop us midway between the campus and the downtown area, we were headed to town. And we simply sat in the street until they would allow us to pass. That&#039 ; s the time we got the telegram from A. G. Gaston. But yeah, every demonstration they had, I was a part of it. Especially if it had to do with our rights as a people. HUNTLEY: So by 1968 they were glad to see you departing? FITTS: Not really. I had mellowed out a lot. I had mellowed out a lot. I made a lot of good friends down there, Mr. Woodson, people I still hear from. My youngest son attends Tuskegee so I still get to see a lot of these people. Charles Chanier, people who were there when I was there. HUNTLEY: How do you think your activism impacted upon your life since then? FITTS: I really think it&#039 ; s made me a better person. I still consider myself a caring person. I have a lot of friends who teach with me at Alabama State University who knew me when we were at Tuskegee. And it upsets them because I am not the radical kind of person that I was then. But, to me things are different. You have to handle things differently now. Where we could get a picket sign and go out and march, it&#039 ; s not always expedient to do that in today&#039 ; s situations. To me, you have to handle things a little bit more diplomatically, but you can still get the same kind of effect. But do it differently. And, this one individual expected me to be the same kind of individual... HUNTLEY: ...encourage them to be involved in the demonstrations in the same manner that you were? FITTS: I don&#039 ; t think I&#039 ; d encouraged them. I&#039 ; ve always tried to allow them to make their own decisions. I do the same thing with my students now. In many instances, when there were marches or whatever taking place, because some of them know of my involvement in the Movement, they&#039 ; ll come and ask me if they should participate. I don&#039 ; t think that&#039 ; s my call. I think that it&#039 ; s their decision to make. Then, if they need information or whatever, I can give them that, but to push them out there, no, I don&#039 ; t think I&#039 ; d ever do that. HUNTLEY: Where do you see the Movement today. And, how can we learn from what happened during the 60s to move the Movement forward? Where are we? FITTS: It&#039 ; s interesting that you would ask that. And I&#039 ; m going to say something that a lot of people have looked at me very strangely for. Being an educator, I feel that in many instances, integration has hurt us. And the reason I say that is because, in my day, when I was in school, we may not have had anything but a test tube and a frog and a lab, but those teachers taught us. But many of the students that I&#039 ; m seeing now have come from integrated situations, our elementary and high school situations. These kids have so many deficiencies. And my feeling is, it&#039 ; s because we have so many teachers in this integrated situation who don&#039 ; t care. They just don&#039 ; t care. Our teachers made sure we took the math, we took the science. These courses that were going to assist us when we got to college. College preparatory kinds of courses. But nowadays, students can take basket weaving if they want to. Nobody cares. They have different kinds of diplomas you can get. And, you know, when I was at Ullman High School you got a diploma and that was it. But, now you have a diploma if you intend to go to college. You have a diploma if you don&#039 ; t intend to go to college. You have a diploma if you&#039 ; re in special ed classes. You see what I&#039 ; m saying. And, to me, that hinders our students. I teach developmental courses on the college level, now. These are kids who have deficiencies in math, English and the sciences because nobody cared back here. It&#039 ; s not that these students can&#039 ; t do it, because if they run into a good teacher in the developmental program who spends the time to show them or assist them in getting what they missed back here, many of these students have gone on to graduate. So in that instance, I think, to a large extent, integration has hurt us. But by the same token, I wouldn&#039 ; t change anything that I went through to get to this point. Now, I&#039 ; ve had my knocks and bumps, too. I got a Master&#039 ; s Degree at the University of Montevallo and in many instances I was the only little speck in the class. I got a doctorate degree at the University of Alabama, same thing. And it was interesting how, in many instances they would forget that I was the only one there and little things would come out, you know. And little prejudices would be shown. HUNTLEY: Why do you think then it appears then that you&#039 ; re saying that rather than actually improving our status, we have, in many ways, digressed? FITTS: I believe we have. HUNTLEY: Where do you think the Movement failed? Where did we fail? FITTS: I don&#039 ; t think we failed. It&#039 ; s just that I don&#039 ; t think we have anybody to continue on. We didn&#039 ; t get all the way there. Do you see what I&#039 ; m saying.FITTS: I don&#039 ; t think we have any leaders like we had then. And, I really cannot see where this next leader is going to come from. HUNTLEY: Some of those same people that we talked about are still on the scene. FITTS: But they are not doing. It&#039 ; s almost like, now I know Jesse Jackson. Jesse Jackson is a fine individual. I remember meeting him at one of our retreats in Frogmore, South Carolina. That&#039 ; s when Dr. King turned the Operation Bread Basket over to him. But, there are too many people who are doing self-serving kinds of things to me. HUNTLEY: For instance, what do you mean, self-serving kind of instances. FITTS: Putting themselves in the political arena. It&#039 ; s not about the race as a whole anymore. Dr. King put his life on the line for us as a people. Yes, he got a Nobel Peace Prize and he did a lot of other things. But his main focus to me was always, you know I don&#039 ; t care about all these negative things you&#039 ; ve heard about Dr. King, I never saw any of those things and I mean even at the A. G. Gaston Hotel, to see him take a drink. I never saw him take a drink. I&#039 ; ve seen some others take a drink here and there. But, Dr. King would sip on his ice or whatever else. Dr. King, and I was with them for a couple of years, was always on the straight and narrow as far as I&#039 ; m concerned or as far as what I could see. But, he was always for the people. And to me, a lot of our so-called leaders now, are not. It&#039 ; s almost like where I can go or how far I can go to get where I want to be. But it&#039 ; s not about the masses of the people. HUNTLEY: Do you think it&#039 ; s necessary to have another Dr. King to come on the scene? FITTS: I think we&#039 ; re going to have to. Because listen. Like I say, I teach on the college level. HUNTLEY: You have a doctorate degree in what area? FITTS: Well, my Master&#039 ; s is in speech pathology. I have a doctorate in special education with a concentration in speech pathology and administration. HUNTLEY: And you are an associate professor at Alabama State University? FITTS: And I also teach at Troy State University of Montgomery. But, I teach a group of students who barely know who Dr. King was. If you ask them what SCLC is, they don&#039 ; t know. HUNTLEY: Why not? Why don&#039 ; t they know? FITTS: My favorite saying is, he who does not know his history is doomed to repeat it. And these students have not been exposed. I mean, they have history but it&#039 ; s not our history, you see. They have American history. They talk about all of this other stuff. I&#039 ; m in the process now of trying to get an African American lit. class right there on campus because these students need to know. HUNTLEY: Are you having difficulty in doing that? FITTS: Well, to a certain extent, yes I am. Because the curriculum is set and nobody wants change, you see. But, even though I teach speech, I don&#039 ; t just teach speech. I teach speech, I teach English, I teach history. I am trying to get our students to a point where they can articulate better. Even when I go and do workshops at White schools or Black schools, I talk mainly to our Black students. Now, you know there are some White students who need help. If you need it, you take what you can from where you can, but I&#039 ; m directing what I&#039 ; m saying to the Black population. HUNTLEY: We have covered an awful lot of territory today and you have been very gracious in sharing your experiences with us. Is there anything else that we may not have touched base on that you would like to include in this tape? FITTS: I can&#039 ; t really think of anything else. Except I guess I wish our colleges and our churches, I just think that there is so much more we could be doing as it relates to educating today&#039 ; s population about what went on then and things that they can do now. Because I can envision, to me, if we&#039 ; re not careful, we&#039 ; re going back. You know what&#039 ; s happening with affirmative action. And if we are not careful and we don&#039 ; t get out there and do something and make some waves, I can see us digressing and I think we need to start with our children and educate them to a point where they can assist us in fighting for it. Because actually, our fight is more for them now. You see, I&#039 ; m 52 years old and I want it to be better for those coming up behind me. HUNTLEY: Dr. Fitts. I want to thank you very much for coming and sitting with us today and taking your time. You have been very gracious as I have suggested and we certainly appreciate the time that you&#039 ; ve taken. FITTS: I&#039 ; ve enjoyed it. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=EFitts1995.xml EFitts1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dr. Elizabeth Fitts Description An account of the resource Dr. Elizabeth Fitts discusses being on the SCLC staff and traveling around the South organizing voter registration. She left college to join the Movement and participated in the Selma march. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950719F Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Southern Christian Leadership Conference Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-07-19 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/f102258047fdc296f2f52cc4f396dd38.jpg 0a5dc2614f320e340f61c7fe6cecd1f4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Kecia Lightner Eric Watson Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Horace Huntley OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=HHuntley1998.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Studies in African American history and culture Afro American Action Committee Carmichael, Stokely OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 May 26, 1998 Dr. Horace Huntley 19980526H 2:01:13 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham University of Alabama in Birmingham. Center for Urban Studies Federal Bureau of Investigation surveillance files Studies in African American history and culture Afro American Action Committee Carmichael, Stokely Horace Huntley Kecia Lightner Eric Watson Video 1:|19(2)|36(11)|44(11)|58(12)|69(7)|84(1)|105(7)|114(9)|126(14)|143(7)|151(12)|167(14)|177(8)|189(9)|200(9)|210(1)|223(1)|232(3)|242(11)|254(1)|269(6)|280(11)|293(8)|306(15)|318(10)|327(2)|338(13)|352(2)|358(9)|367(12)|375(8)|388(13)|401(6)|413(9)|423(12)|433(7)|444(11)|453(12)|461(6)|472(10)|483(10)|493(10)|503(6)|515(6)|525(2)|535(11)|548(10)|554(4)|561(4)|571(1)|578(10)|591(4)|601(16)|611(10)|620(13)|630(13)|643(4)|653(3)|660(8)|669(14)|680(6)|692(1)|704(7)|717(13)|728(6)|738(6)|749(11)|762(9)|775(4)|784(17)|794(9)|801(6)|810(1)|819(7)|829(13)|844(14)|854(10)|869(1)|877(11)|890(13)|899(3)|910(3)|928(10)|940(8)|950(7)|961(12)|974(8)|983(12)|993(11)|1003(5)|1013(7)|1025(9)|1037(7)|1048(8)|1058(4)|1065(2)|1075(13)|1087(8)|1100(7)|1110(10)|1120(5)|1132(1)|1142(9)|1153(12)|1162(1)|1174(12)|1186(12)|1197(3)|1209(1)|1219(10)|1229(12)|1238(12)|1250(9)|1259(9)|1267(8)|1274(14)|1283(8)|1291(11)|1302(3)|1312(14)|1325(2) 0 https://youtu.be/c4siTX81DAM YouTube video English 1 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Dr. Horace Huntley for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Dr. Horace Huntley is introduced. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 28 Family Background First, we're going to ask you a pretty general question. Where were you born? Huntley begins by detailing his family history. His father worked for US Steel, but was threatened by the Ku Klux Klan, which resulted in him leaving for Michigan. Afterwards, Huntley's father was not involved in the family. International Mine, Mill, and Smelter workers ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Tennessee Coal, Iron, and Railroad Company African American families ; Working class African Americans 539 Awareness of Race &amp ; Discrimination Okay, you've pretty much set the pace for my next question. What was your first contact with Blacks? Huntley recalls several instances in his childhood where he discovered the differences in treatment between people of different races, including segregation in entertainment, transportation, and derogatory treatment in shops. Alabama State Fair ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Segregation in transportation--United States African Americans--Segregation ; Racial analysis 1240 Educational Background What elementary school did you attend? Huntley states that he went to Riley Elementary and Wenonah Middle and High School. When he started high school in 1957, he notes that he did not have much exposure to the events of the Movement, and was not involved in them. After high school, he had planned to attend Tuskegee, though he was not able to due to family finances, so he instead joined the military. Riley Elementary School ; Wenonah High School African American elementary schools ; African American high school students 2095 Joining the Air Force I joined the Air Force to see the world, and they sent me to Grand Forks, North Dakota. Huntley describes his time in the Air Force, where he was stationed in Grand Forks, North Dakota. Although the military was desegregated at the time, other white members exerted social pressure to segregate themselves from other Black members in the same flight. He describes social acceptance being dependent on the area in which he was. He refers to a time where he rode at the front of a bus in Winnipeg, and a white woman sat next to him. He also relays how the bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church was a topic of conversation at the military base. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Grand Forks (N.D.) ; Winnipeg (Man.) United States. Air Force--African Americans 3183 Early Career in Minnesota What did you do after you left the Air Force? Huntley recalls how he and his wife eventually moved to Minneapolis, Minnesota, where he enrolled in the Computer Data Institute for computer technology, and afterwards worked at Honeywell. He and his wife became involved in their local community center. Careers in computer technology ; Community centers--Minnesota ; Control Data Institute ; Honeywell Inc. Minneapolis (Minn.) 3379 Advocating for African American Studies &amp ; Programming at the University of Minnesota Okay, let's talk a little about your time at the University, to go back to the University of Minnesota. Huntley recalls how he and other African American students involved in the Afro American Action Committee petitioned the University of Minnesota to develop an African American studies program by facilitating a sit-in protest inside the main administration building. The President of the University eventually relented and the community held a student conference that invited prominent Black figures, and the Martin Luther King Scholarship Program was created for the University. Huntley then states that he was one of the first people in the country to graduate with a degree in African American Studies. Ali, Muhammad, 1942- ; Diplomatic protests ; Martin Luther King Scholarship Fund ; Moos, Malcolm, 1916-1982 ; Turner, Emeritus J. Afro American Action Committee ; University of Minnesota ; University of Minnesota. Department of Afro-American and African Studies 4511 The Black Power Movement &amp ; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s Assassination You were very much a part of the Black Power movements that were going on in '65 directly. Huntley states that the Black Panther Party was involved in the community at the time and that he personally met Stokely Carmichael. He credits them for assisting the students at the University when they held the protest in the administration building. Huntley then discusses how the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. affected the Black community. Assassination--United States ; Black Panther Party ; Carmichael, Stokely ; SNCC ; Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.) Black power--United States--History--20th century ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 4777 Higher Education &amp ; Doctorate Okay, now you graduated from the University of Minnesota. You have one of the first degrees in African American Studies. Where did you go from there? Huntley shares the journey of his higher education, which included studying at Syracuse, teaching at State University of New York at Oswego and University of Maryland, Eastern shore, and then pursuing his doctorate at the University of Pittsburgh. His dissertation was on the International Union of Mine, Mill, and Smelter workers, and included gathering oral histories from labor workers. Labor unions, Black ; Labor--History ; Montgomery, Dave ; State University of New York at Oswego ; Syracuse University ; University of Maryland, Eastern Shore ; University of Pittsburgh African American doctoral students ; International Union of Mine, Mill, and Smelter Workers ; Oral histories 5059 Teaching at UAB &amp ; the Difficulties of Starting an African American Studies Program Now you have your Ph.D. What do you do from there? Huntley describes how he taught African American History, American History, and Urban Studies at UAB, during which, he tried to advocate for the development of an African American Studies department. After the administration argued that there was no funding available, he spoke with Senator Fred Horn, who stated that he could provide funding ; however, the administration instead opted to retain the same courses that were presently available. Huntley later testified in a case against institutions of higher education to reveal the inequality of education that was being developed. Clemon, U. W., 1943- ; Horn, Fred, 1925-2018 ; Murphy, Harold Lloyd ; University of Alabama in Birmingham. Center for Urban Studies Discrimination in education--United States ; Studies in African American history and culture ; University of Alabama in Birmingham 5915 Obtaining His FBI File I know you requested your FBI file through the Freedom of Information Act. Huntley details how he discovered that he was put under surveillance when he uncovered the existence of a nearly 300 page FBI file on him. United States. Freedom of Information Act Federal Bureau of Investigation surveillance files 6100 The Lack of Proportional Racial Representation in the Birmingham School System Okay, now let's go ahead and talk a little bit about the things that went on, not at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, but within the city itself. Huntley discusses how the predominately Black population of students in Birmingham could be traced back to UAB purchasing the land for its campus, displacing some African American communities who then moved into white neighborhoods ; as a result, many white people moved out to the suburbs. Huntley then highlights how those in the Black community are not fully represented in the school board in proportion to the amount of Black students who are the Birmingham education system. Birmingham City Schools ; University of Alabama in Birmingham African Americans--Education ; Proportional representation--United States ; School board members--United States 6496 Political Career I know you also got involved with the city government of Birmingham. Huntley describes his political involvement in the city of Birmingham when he ran for the city council. He states that his main platform was about the development of Black businesses He further discusses the inequality that Black businesses faced in comparisons to businesses own by people who are White. Birmingham Historical Commission ; Birmingham Historical Society ; Blankenship, Don ; City council members ; Million Man March (1995 : Washington, D.C.) ; Muhammad, William African Americans--Politics and government Oral History Dr. Horace Huntley discusses advocating for the creation of African American Studies programs at various institutions, including UAB. His civil rights rights involvement led to an extensive file and surveillance by the FBI. LIGHTNER: This is an interview with Dr. Horace Huntley for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. Dr. Huntley is the Director of the Oral History Project here at the Institute. The interview will be conducted by Kecia Lightner and Eric Watson. Today is May 26, 1998. We are currently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. First we would like to thank you, Dr. Huntley for taking time out of your busy schedule and talking with us. HUNTLEY: Thank you. LIGHTNER: First we&#039 ; re going to ask you a pretty general question. Where were you born? HUNTLEY: I was born here in Birmingham. In fact, I was born at the, what is now the University Hospital, then it was the Hillman Hospital. LIGHTNER: Oh, okay. HUNTLEY: I was born in 1942 in the city, which, of course, was the height of the segregationist era. Black people were not allowed to come in the front door. That day, December 5, 1942, both my grandmothers actually walked into the front door of the Hillman Hospital and they decided that this was a new day and they were not going to go around the back that day. LIGHTNER: Oh, they pretty much started a desegregation movement themselves. HUNTLEY: They started it in 1942 on December 5. So, we celebrate it every December. (Laughing) LIGHTNER: What community were you raised in? HUNTLEY: In the Riley Community, which is a southwestern community about a mile southwest of Powderly. LIGHTNER: Exactly what type of jobs did the people engage in, in that type of community? HUNTLEY: Well, I actually lived on a dead end street. On my street there were mostly working class people. My, see, I lived with my grandmother, who was a domestic, my mother, who was a licensed practical nurse and I lived with, there were three of us, my brother and sister. Then, there were two first cousins. So, another aunt, she didn&#039 ; t live there, but her children lived with us. She worked out of town and she would go back and forth between Birmingham and Hale County. She taught at Hale County. So, our family was, more or less, teachers and nurses. My uncle, he was a mechanic. He repaired cars. Other people on the street were steel workers. There was a miner. In the wider community there were other people who were teachers, ministers. Most of the people in my community were domestics, like my grandmother. LIGHTNER: Now you mentioned your mother was an LPN. HUNTLEY: Right. LIGHTNER: What type of educational background did your father have? HUNTLEY: My father was a welder. He had a high school education. My mother and father were divorced very early. I never remembered them living together. So, before I started first grade they were separated. I&#039 ; m not sure if they were divorced at that time. So, I was raised by my grandmother and my mother. It was rather interesting because he moved to Michigan. The reason that he did was because he worked in the mine after he got out of the navy. He went in the navy. He worked in the mine and in the mine, in the mid to late &#039 ; &#039 ; 40s, again this is Birmingham, Alabama. He had a dispute with a White worker and he beat this man up. About 4:00 in the morning, I was told that the police came to the house, arrested him and took him to the Brownsville Jail. Brownsville is a little place just southwest of Riley. That&#039 ; s where his folks lived. That&#039 ; s where he and my mother were living at the time with his folks. My grandfather was a member of the International Union of Mine, Mill and Smelter workers. He had very little education and someone told him that they had come and picked his son up to take him to the jail. He said to them, &quot ; Well, they can&#039 ; t do anything to that boy until they get hearing from across the water.&quot ; Everybody wanted to know what that meant. The only thing that I could figure that it meant was that he was a member of the International Union. So, he figured the union was going to handle it and they wouldn&#039 ; t harm him or anything. The Klan told my father that he had to get out of town or they were going to do something to him. So, as a result, that was part of why he left and went to Michigan. My mother went and spent some time and as a result of that they really never did make up. She came back home to Birmingham. LIGHTNER: Now what company did your father work for? HUNTLEY: It was US Steel, TCI at the time, Tennessee Coal and Iron. He was an iron ore miner initially for a brief time after getting out of the military. He was following the footsteps of his father. My grandfather was an iron ore miner. Then, he went to. Michigan and worked for General Motors and he became a welder. LIGHTNER: And your parents were both born and raised in Birmingham? HUNTLEY: No, my mother was born in Tuscaloosa but raised in Birmingham. My father was born and raised in Birmingham. LIGHTNER: Now, you mentioned a brother and a sister. Is that the only make up of your siblings? And if so, what line do you fall in? HUNTLEY: Well, I was the oldest, I am the oldest. My brother is next and my sister is the baby. They both still live here in Birmingham. LIGHTNER: And your grandmother, you mentioned her and I understand, she&#039 ; s probably a pretty forceful lady, just give her a chance. What was her educational background? HUNTLEY: Momma could not read or write. She was illiterate, but she was the smartest person I ever knew. She was my hero. Well, in Black families there were always discussions of color. In my family my grandmother and I were the darkest in the family. Everybody else was light skinned. So, they would always tease me about being Black, but they were doing that in order to make me feel good about myself, you know. But they would always say, &quot ; You and momma are the Blackest ones in the family and you&#039 ; re not light skinned like we are.&quot ; They were really using reverse psychology, my aunt particularly. That was always very interesting, because I would always say, &quot ; Momma knows everything, so I&#039 ; ll be just like momma.&quot ; So, I was proud of that. In fact, as I said, momma couldn&#039 ; t read. In fact, she couldn&#039 ; t read her name. When I was...the mailman would come and we would have to sign and I would have to sign for her and read it to her. But I remember as we were growing up she would always read to us every night. We thought she was reading. She would get a book every night and before we would go to bed she would read and one night my mother came home early and said she was going to read to us. She got the same book that momma was reading and she read. We said, &quot ; No, no, that&#039 ; s not right. Momma didn&#039 ; t say that.&quot ; So, we always had a big laugh out of that. But my grandmother was the matriarch of the family on my mother&#039 ; s side. She always said she wanted her children to go to school because she didn&#039 ; t want any of them working in any of those White folks kitchen. LIGHTNER: Ok, you&#039 ; ve pretty much set the pace for my next question. What was your first contact with Blacks? I know you mentioned your father had a run...well, not with Blacks, with Whites. I know you mentioned your father had a run in with the Klan here. HUNTLEY: Right. LIGHTNER: Was that your first contact with others of another race? HUNTLEY: Well, actually in our community, we lived on one street and Whites lived on the next street. There was a family that lived right in the back of us whose name was Zito. They owned a grocery store. My grandmother worked for them, took care of the children, cleaned there homes and everything. But the children and I grew up together. We were really like best friends, prior to going to school. And we were, I was in their house a lot and they were in our house a lot. At that particular time, of course, the issue of race was really not an issue for us at that young age. I can remember, though, that our parents, my grandmother and mother were real stricter than their parents were. In fact, I remember being at their home one day and his mother, his mother said something to him and he didn&#039 ; t like it. So he smarted off at her and she hit him and he hit her back. Then, the mother left and then we went on out to play. That&#039 ; s impressionable for a young mind, thinking oh, he got away with it, I better try this. I got home that afternoon and our mother said something to me and she hit me and I hit her back and boy she almost beat me to death. (Laughing) I said I learned a lesson then, that I can&#039 ; t do the same thing that Frankie does with his mother because there will be a little bit more consequences. LIGHTNER: So even at that young age and with that little incident you kind of learned that the races were different. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. LIGHTNER: Now I kind of read in other interviews that the Birmingham Police Department was pretty prevalent in neighborhoods during that time. Did you or your family members have any contact with the Birmingham Police Department? And if so, what were they? HUNTLEY: Well, I never remember the police coming to our house. I remember an incident where the man across the street from us, his name is Mr. Robert. And Mr. Robert every Friday...he was a contractor, he would build homes and in the summer I would actually work with him. But every Friday Mr. Robert would get drunk. He had a, we lived on a dirt street, with gravel and his house was directly across the street from ours. We were on a dead end so he had to back out and then back out in front of our house and then pull onto the street. And when he was drunk we knew that we had to get out of the way because when he pulled out, he was going to put it into low gear and take off and throw gravel up on our porch, you know. I remember once he got drunk and he went out to the neighborhood store. The neighborhood store was owned by White people and that day when he went up there an old policeman was there. Mr. Robert said something to the man and then took off running. The old man couldn&#039 ; t run as fast as Mr. Robert, although Mr. Robert was drunk. He came out and he had his gun out. And Mr. Robert&#039 ; s wife and everybody else in the community was sort of watching. She went out and begged this policeman, cause Mr. Robert was sitting down at the end of the street cursing that policeman out. He was telling him everything that he ever wanted to tell a White person. She went out and she pleaded with him not to shoot Mr. Robert. I said he was drunk and he didn&#039 ; t shoot him and he allowed him to go into the house and go to bed or whatever. That was an encounter. There was another encounter but not with a policeman. There was a grocery store, no two grocery stores. One owned by a White family and the other owned by an Italian family. Then, there was another one that was a service station that was owned [inaudible]. Their son was a policeman, but they were known members of the Klan. Momma would send me out to get whatever, to get a drink, washing powder, or whatever. And also the mailman would come there and sit and that&#039 ; s where he collected the mail from. So, one day I went out and I was going to mail a letter, but I didn&#039 ; t have a stamp. So, I gave Mr. Pierce three cents and said, &quot ; Would you mail this for me?&quot ; I asked him if he would mail that for me. He said, &quot ; What do you want me to do, lick the stamp for you, too?&quot ; So, I said, &quot ; That&#039 ; s ok.&quot ; I walked out and I didn&#039 ; t go back into that store for I don&#039 ; t know how long, but it seems like a long time. He said to my grandmother, &quot ; That boy of yours, he thinks he&#039 ; s something. He don&#039 ; t come back out here anymore.&quot ; Momma came back and asked what happened. I didn&#039 ; t even tell her about it. I told her that I don&#039 ; t have to go out to his store and I would not go and be, what I considered to be, disrespected by him. Although I didn&#039 ; t have to say anything to him, but I didn&#039 ; t have to go out to his store. So, momma said, &quot ; You&#039 ; re right.&quot ; She never did make me go back or anything. But the police in the neighborhood were treacherous. We had car number 51. When you saw car number 51 coming you knew that there was something going on. I remember that they picked up one of my friends, he was older than I was. We used to sort of hang out on the corner at this little delicatessen. They picked up this buddy of mine...well, he wasn&#039 ; t a buddy he was older, but I knew him from the neighborhood. I don&#039 ; t really remember what had happened but something had happened. They put him in the back seat of the car and in the back seat was a German Shepherd. That was not a pretty sight. The policemen were not in our neighborhoods to protect and serve. They were simply there to control the community and they did. LIGHTNER: So, you pretty much realized this at an early age and you knew exactly how turbulent the racial situation was and everything. HUNTLEY: There were all kinds of examples. Because I didn&#039 ; t have a father figure, my grandmother wanted to make sure that I was manly, whatever that meant. I was 10, 11, or 12 years old she would send me downtown to pay the bills. We didn&#039 ; t have checking accounts at the time. I would go downtown to pay...I remember walking to Alabama Power, Alabama Gas, to furniture stores and other places similar to that. You really don&#039 ; t think much about it at that particular time but in retrospect, you know, I thought about that. You go and get on a segregated bus, you sit in the back of that bus and you ride downtown. It had the board on it saying &quot ; White&quot ; on one side and &quot ; Colored&quot ; on the other side. You ride downtown and you get off the bus and go to Alabama Power and you have to go to the second floor. You can&#039 ; t ride the regular elevator you have to walk up or ride the freight elevator. She would always give me enough money to go to the show, get some popcorn, or buy a record, or whatever. I would always go to Newberry&#039 ; s. I remember going to Newberry&#039 ; s and purchasing a hot dog and get that hot dog and once you purchased a hot dog then you would have to take it outside to eat it. You could not sit at the counter. There was the Leary Theater, where the Blacks sat in the balcony and the Whites sat on the first floor. We always said that was one of the mistakes that the segregationist made, because we would go to the Leary Theater and get some water and toss it down on them, you know. (Laughing) Then, we would take off and go to 4th Avenue to the Famous or the Carver Theater. So, we always wondered why they made that mistake, why did they put us up there because we had all the fun. I remember getting back on the bus to go home, going pass the Fairgrounds and never being able to go out there. I always wanted to go out to the Fairgrounds because of the glamour. The scene was so glamourous. I always wanted to go to the Alabama Theater because of all of the lights and it was more glamourous than the Carver Theater. I actually had some friends that could pass for Whites and they went into the Alabama Theater and they would come back and tell us how glamourous it was. I never got a chance to go in at that particular junction. The first time I got a chance to go to a State Fair...well, here the Black people were given a day at the State Fair. My grandmother was a proud Black woman. She said, &quot ; If we couldn&#039 ; t go everyday, then we wouldn&#039 ; t go any day.&quot ; So, I never got to go to a State Fair until I was 23 years old in St. Paul, Minnesota. I got a chance to go to the State Fair and I loved everything. I think I must have eaten some of everything and I was sick as a dog. (Laughing) Those are the kinds of things you think about once you&#039 ; ve gotten out of the situation that you are in. You don&#039 ; t really think about it while you&#039 ; re going through it. LIGHTNER: What elementary school did you attend? HUNTLEY: Well, I started first grade at Riley Elementary School. At that time we lived probably eight blocks from Riley Elementary. At the school, and I remember there was a big white building. It&#039 ; s not the same Riley School now that they are rebuilding, but it was a big white wood structure. Well, it was a wood structure painted white. At the entrance there was a big sign that said, Riley Negro School. I remember that just as plain as it was yesterday. At the school we had Mrs. Davis was the principal and she was a pretty big woman and she had a strap. We called that strap Black Magic. You didn&#039 ; t want to get out of line because Black Magic would come and visit you. I think she believed in corporal punishment. LIGHTNER: Now what about the racial mix up of the teachers and the students. You said it was all Black. So the teachers were all Black as well? HUNTLEY: The teachers were all Black and the students were all Black. The community was all Black, primarily, you know. As I told you, my best friends during the summer, prior to going to school, were all White, well they were Italian. But when we started to go to school, they went into a Catholic School. Then, we went to our school and we would play in the afternoons up until, I guess, probably until we got to Junior High School, maybe. Of course, in high school we would never associate. We would see each other but we would never really...well, in the summers we would still play baseball together. Outside of just right there in the neighborhood there were really no good association between us. LIGHTNER: Now were you involved in any extracurricular activities at Riley Elementary School? HUNTLEY: At Riley I was always active in...we always had to do speeches, different kinds of programs, assembly programs. I was always very active in those. I don&#039 ; t remember having clubs of any kind, like math clubs until we got to high school. I was pretty active. Whatever was going on I was pretty involved in it in elementary school. LIGHTNER: What high school did you attend? HUNTLEY: Went to Wenonah High School. Prior to going to Wenonah High, I actually went to Wenonah Middle School. Riley went from 1st to 8th grade. Then, in the 6th grade I got in a fight at Riley and got kicked out of school. Then, I decided not to go back to Riley, I went to Wenonah Middle School. It was rather interesting what the fight was about. My brother was mentally retarded and another family that lived in Riley had a brother that was mentally retarded. They got into a fight and I interceded the other girls. It was only girls in that family. We got into a big to do. Their family, both their grandmother and grandfather worked at the school, so they were much better known than my folks were. So the fight then was blamed on me and I got kicked out of school and they didn&#039 ; t get kicked out of school. I was upset and I said I was not going back to that school. I asked momma if I could go to Wenonah and I did. LIGHTNER: What were your experiences like at Wenonah Elementary School? HUNTLEY: Well, Wenonah was a larger school and I got to meet kids from other communities. Like at Riley we basically just knew each other in the community. But at Wenonah there were kids from other adjoining neighborhoods. So, I got to know a lot more students. Still I was a pretty good student, not at the top of the class but pretty close. I remember we had, we always talked about if students learned better with other students with their capability or do you mix it up. A lot of times we had a guy in our class, his name was Bull Man, that was his nickname. Bull Man, you always had a child in class that can&#039 ; t learn, well, Bull was one of those people. But we wanted Bull to be just as good in school as we were. So, we decided, cause he never participated. So when we got together we said, &quot ; Bull, this is going to be your question.&quot ; We had a number of questions we had to answer. Number eight was going to be Bull Man&#039 ; s question. So, we said, &quot ; When Mr. Henry asks for number eight nobody else raise their hands, that&#039 ; s Bull Man&#039 ; s question.&quot ; So, when number eight came around Bull didn&#039 ; t raise his hand and nobody else raised their hand. (Laughing) Then, all of us looked at Bull Man and then finally he said, &quot ; Oh, that&#039 ; s mine.&quot ; He raised his hand and he answered the question. He learned it. He actually learned it and we were all excited about Bull Man participating. That was sort of a highlight of the academic experience, to get somebody else involved in the process. The elementary school was down the hill from the high school. All of the bigger kids would walk through the elementary school grounds going to the high school and you always thought, man I would like to be able to go up that hill at 8:00 in the morning. So, we always had this idea that it was so much more glamourous to be in high school than it was in elementary school and, of course, eventually we would make it there. LIGHTNER: So, what were your experiences like at Wenonah High School? HUNTLEY: It was good experiences. I enjoyed Wenonah High. We were still in the 9th Grade, we were not in a special class. This of course meant that there would be students from most of the southwest Birmingham. A larger geographic area than what had been at Riley or Wenonah Elementary School. I met people from Roosevelt, Bessemer, Raymond, Powderly, Shades Valley and those kids that came from a distance were bused in. We had about 15 bus loads that were brought in everyday to the school. In the 10th grade, well, actually from about the 7th or 8th grade I always wanted to be an astronomer. I was pretty good in math. Then I got to 10th grade and I got the big head. I was good and I made good grades but I don&#039 ; t think I learned very much after the 10th grade. Although I still, out of about 200 I was probably about 20 or something, maybe the low &#039 ; &#039 ; 20s. I was good in math but after the 10th grade one of my instructors told us that anybody that sells &quot ; x&quot ; number of ads will get an &quot ; A&quot ; in the course. This was for Algebra. So, that was no problem. So I went and sold my ads so I didn&#039 ; t have to learn Algebra then. I thought I was getting over. Of course, that would come back to haunt me because I never got any more math. You know I couldn&#039 ; t do Algebra and to this day I still can&#039 ; t do Algebra but I passed. I got &quot ; As&quot ; and &quot ; Bs&quot ; in all of my classes from then on. Then, when I got to college I needed that Algebra and couldn&#039 ; t do it. I was a member of the Honor Society and I was a member of a couple of other clubs. I was a big sports enthusiast. I played a lot of sports in the neighborhood. In the 9th grade I was titled as one of the better athletes in the community. So, when I got to high school, 9th grade, my reputation had sort of beat me up there. So, what I did, again I sort of got the big head and I was playing one day and the coach of the junior varsity saw me playing and told my cousin, &quot ; I would like for him to play for me.&quot ; So I told my cousin, &quot ; if he wants me to play for him he can come and ask me.&quot ; He never did come and ask me to play. So, I never went out for the team in the 9th grade. The 10th grade I went out and I always say he didn&#039 ; t let me make the team because of the 9th grade...or in the 11th grade. I probably wasn&#039 ; t as good as I thought I was. In the 12th grade I finally made the team and then I had my first attack of asthma. Then, the doctor wouldn&#039 ; t allow me to play and I was really sick then. (Laughing) I never did compete in athletics in high school. LIGHTNER: Now when you&#039 ; re in high school that&#039 ; s the early &#039 ; 50s, mid &#039 ; 50s? HUNTLEY: I graduated in &#039 ; 61. Started high school in &#039 ; 57. LIGHTNER: So, a lot of things had taken place in Birmingham by the time that you arrived in high school. In &#039 ; 54 we have Brown versus Board of Education, &#039 ; 56 NAACP is outlawed in Alabama and the formation of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights gets off the ground. Did you have any knowledge that these events were going on? And if so, were you involved in any of them? HUNTLEY: I did not. Of course, the Brown versus Board decision I don&#039 ; t remember that, didn&#039 ; t know anything about it happening. In &#039 ; 56 when the Movement started and the NAACP was outlawed I had no knowledge of that. I did know vaguely about the Alabama Christian Movement and people going to jail, riding the bus and that kind of thing, but I was never involved in any of it. We lived really on the outskirts, in fact, at that time we were in the county. We were about seven miles from downtown. So, most of the movement of those early days sort of by-passed us. We were not involved. No one in my family was involved. However, later on in the &#039 ; 60s, my wife, who would become my wife, her father and her grandmother were very actively involved. So, there were two or three of her siblings that were involved. But in those days before &#039 ; 61, before I graduated I didn&#039 ; t even know anybody that was involved in the movement. LIGHTNER: Ok. What did you do after high school? HUNTLEY: I had planned to go to Tuskegee, we were in the accelerated class so we got these diplomas and there were ten of us in my homeroom class that were going to go to Tuskegee. One day our advisor, we were talking to her, she said, &quot ; I know all of you are planning to go to Tuskegee, but one of you are not going to go.&quot ; We looked at her kind of strange because we knew that all of us were going. She evidently had already talked with my mother. My mother couldn&#039 ; t afford to send me to Tuskegee and I didn&#039 ; t know anything about the work programs. So, all of them went to Tuskegee and I joined the military. I joined the air force to see the world and they sent me to Grand Forks, North Dakota. LIGHTNER: Pretty far away from home. HUNTLEY: I left here on August 11th and spent two months in Texas, Lackland Air Force Base for basic training. Then, I came back to Birmingham for leave about 30 days and then left Birmingham sometime in October. It was about 75 degrees, so I wore my summer uniform. I got to North Dakota and it was 20 degrees. The wind chill was about 10 below. I had never experienced anything like that in all my days. That was, happened to have been one of the warmer days that I would experience in North Dakota. It was nothing for the temperature to get down to 35 to 40 below 0 and with the wind chill 90 to 95 below. So that was quite an experience from Birmingham, Alabama in mid October to Grand Forks, North Dakota. It was more than I had bargained for. LIGHTNER: Other than the weather adjustments what other adjustments did you have to go through in the military? This is, of course, after the armed forces is desegregated but at the same time there is still a lot of forces working within that. HUNTLEY: It&#039 ; s interesting because in basic training all of us Blacks and Whites were made to feel like nothing, like dirt. Then, they would build you up. I remember when I was waiting during the summer I had taken the test to go into the army and two of my other buddies took the test. They were older than I. They took the test and they passed it but the army sent back and said I didn&#039 ; t pass the test. I was really upset. So, I went and took the test for the air force. It seemed like it took forever to get the results back and I was impatient and said, &quot ; if I don&#039 ; t get my results back tomorrow I&#039 ; m going to go take the test for the navy.&quot ; So, that day I got my results and I passed. I remember going to Montgomery for my physical. I thought I was going to be able to go back home. From Montgomery they sent me directly to Grand Forks Air Force Base. I was the only Black on the train going to San Antonio, Texas. The train was interstate, so it was not segregated. All of us were, more or less, together. But I remember all those guys, all the White guys and they would sort of huddle up in the compartment and I was just part...This one guy looked at me and said to me that I needed to go some place else. Everybody else sort of said the same thing. So, I left. So, I was basically by myself all the way from Alabama to Texas. When we got to Lackland Air Force Base we were going to be a part of a flight. Evidently what they had done they had all Whites from Alabama, with the exception of myself, and all Blacks from Philadelphia. So, I got with the brothers from Philadelphia and we took care of some business based upon what happened on the train. While there, we became very close, Black and White. I remember one of myWhite friends, he was not a best friend, but we were members of the same flight. He was from Savannah, Georgia, I believe, somewhere in Georgia. We left the base after the two months and we sat together on the bus going to the airport and then we sat together on the plane. The plane took off from San Antonio and we had a stop at Shreveport, Louisiana. All this time we had been spending a lot of time together and everybody is the same, basically. We got to Shreveport and we go into the airport and we both sit down at a table to order and this waitress came over and she said to me, &quot ; I can&#039 ; t serve you here, you have to go over to the other side.&quot ; That hit me in the face like a bowl of grits, hot grits. And still, I didn&#039 ; t say anything, I just got up and left. I thought he would get up and leave as well. He didn&#039 ; t leave he just sat there. We got back on the plane, this was the same plane. Rather than sitting in the seat next to me, he moved and sat at another seat. That said an awful lot to me about, of course, about him, but it also said a lot about the pressures on him to conform to what we thought we had left. We never said anything else to each other. LIGHTNER: Now what will be your next destination after Louisiana? HUNTLEY: Birmingham. That was just a stop off in Shreveport and then to Birmingham. Then, after Birmingham I would get my assignment to Grand Forks, North Dakota. That was rather interesting because in Grand Forks there were no Black folk, except those who were on the base. I remember going to a restaurant when I first got up there. This lady was sitting across in this booth from me with two small children. This little boy kept staring at me. Finally, she was trying to stop him from starying, finally, he couldn&#039 ; t take it no more. He said, &quot ; mom, look at that funny kind of man.&quot ; She apologized, but she said she was sorry but he had never seen a Black man before. I was just taken aback, you know. I thought everybody had seen us some place. (Laughing) You could go downtown in Grand Forks, in fact, when I got to Minneapolis you would go downtown and you wouldn&#039 ; t see any Black folks. There was some difficulty between Blacks and town people. They didn&#039 ; t really care for Blacks to come downtown to spend the day and they made that known. Every year the Red River would flood and then they would call and the base would send volunteers down. So, they&#039 ; ve always asked for volunteers. So, every year before I got there they would go down and they would call it sand bag. My first year there, after finding that the people didn&#039 ; t want us downtown during the rest of the year, they would ask for volunteers, but actually they were preparing us to go downtown. I refused to go. I told the other guys that, &quot ; if you go you&#039 ; re crazy. They don&#039 ; t want us down here any other time.&quot ; So, the other guys then in my squadron, anyway, decided not to participate. Nothing happened. They didn&#039 ; t reprimand or anything, but we decided we were going to take that stand. This may have been one of the first times that I had taken a stand on an issue where a race seemed to have been paramount. LIGHTNER: So, although you are in another geographic region it&#039 ; s kind of much like being in Birmingham? HUNTLEY: Yeah, when it came to interaction, it was very much like Birmingham. There was little...Now, we could go to Canada and it was totally different, like day and night. That&#039 ; s where many of us would go on the weekends, to Winnipeg [inaudible]. People there were seemingly totally different where race was concerned. This was White people and there were some Blacks there, too. They looked at us very differently than the people in the states. I remember I wanted to go to Canada so I could sit on the front of the bus (Laughing) and I did. I went, that was the first thing I did when I got there. I got my hotel and I went and sat on the front of the bus. I was just riding, enjoying myself. A few blocks down the bus stopped and this White female got on, a young girl, I guess probably about my age. She got on the bus and the bus wasn&#039 ; t crowded or anything and she sat down right next to me. I almost had spasms. This was a White woman sitting next to me, don&#039 ; t you know I&#039 ; m from Birmingham and you can&#039 ; t do that. I was actually rather scared, you know. All I could think about was that I knew that Bull Conner had me on camera someplace and was watching every move and I sat just like this. Not only did she sit there but she started to talk to me. After awhile I got comfortable and I think we had a pretty good discussion, but I was terrified. LIGHTNER: So that mentality was still pretty much engraved in you? HUNTLEY: You could take me out of Birmingham, but you couldn&#039 ; t take Birmingham out of me at that particular time. Not in that sense. I remember that just very, very vividly that I wanted to go, cause I wanted to sit on the front of the bus. I never imagined this White woman was going to come sit next to me. I did know that White women were dating Black men because that&#039 ; s why the brothers were going to Manitoba, for the women. They were basically White women and I knew that. I guess that probably had something to do with my wanting to go. The first thing I wanted to do was sit in the front of that bus. LIGHTNER: Now, did you keep in touch with any of your relatives back home as to what exactly was going on here? I know in the &#039 ; 60s a lot of things were happening in Birmingham. In &#039 ; 63 was a really turbulent year for Birmingham. The bombing of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. A lot of the demonstrations with the kids were going on trying to desegregate the stores downtown. Did you have any awareness of that going on? HUNTLEY: ...I actually kept a running tab. I would get the Minneapolis Tribune everyday and I made a scrap book with every article that the Minneapolis Tribune had on that particular era between April and May of 1963. I kept all of those articles. I was in constant contact. In fact, I would request leave in May of &#039 ; 63 and the officer I worked for said he wouldn&#039 ; t give me the leave because I didn&#039 ; t need to go to Alabama at that time. I told him whether you give me the leave or not, I have to go to Birmingham. He understood that I was going to come anyway so he did give me the leave. So, I did get to come home, probably right after the children&#039 ; s demonstrations. I was home probably about a month at that time. Normally when I would come home I would stay 30 days. So, I spent time here in Birmingham, but my girlfriend was at Tuskegee. So, I spent as much time in Tuskegee as I did in Birmingham. LIGHTNER: Do you remember the day that the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church was bombed? HUNTLEY: I don&#039 ; t remember the day but I remember that we...I don&#039 ; t know if it was that day or sometime that week, but I can remember sitting in our day room. That&#039 ; s where our TV was in the barracks. We, I don&#039 ; t think we had any disturbances, but there was some discussion about Birmingham. What most people would ask is what was it like to live in Birmingham. Everybody thought that. They just couldn&#039 ; t believe that I was from Birmingham, Alabama. I can not recall that specific day that it happened, but I know that there were discussions about it. It may have been that day or a few days after. I had a clipping of that as well. When I first got to North Dakota there were very few Blacks from the South. I would just ask people where were they from. Everybody was from Cleveland, Chicago, or Philadelphia. I noticed that there were guys that had Black southern accents. So, there was this one brother and I said, &quot ; I know you&#039 ; re my homeboy.&quot ; He said, &quot ; No, I&#039 ; m from PA.&quot ; I said, &quot ; PA?&quot ; I was kind of puzzled. A few days later I saw him again and I said, &quot ; Where did you say you were from?&quot ; He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m from PA, man.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Man, you know you&#039 ; re from Mississippi.&quot ; (Laughing) He said, &quot ; No, I&#039 ; m from PA.&quot ; Finally, I guess it was a few days later, I said, &quot ; Come on homeboy tell me where you are from.&quot ; He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m from PA.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, what does PA mean?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Pine Apple, Alabama.&quot ; (Laughing) Those guys who were from Mississippi, Alabama, from Georgia they would always say they were from someplace else. It was not until myself, a buddy from Jackson and another buddy from Mississippi and one from Virginia we would always say where we were from. There was one guy who swore he was from Cleveland, Ohio. We just accepted it. One day they put our serial numbers on our doors. Our numbers started with 1476 and this guy, we got home that evening from work and we looked at all the doors and on his door, we knew that he was not from Cleveland, but we didn&#039 ; t know where he was from. He had the same first four that we had. And 1476 was Alabama, Mississippi and Georgia. It turned out that he was from Meridian, Mississippi. He was so upset that we found out that he actually cried. He did not want to be from the south. For obvious reasons no one wanted to be associated with the brutality and the supposed subordination that Black folks had to encounter in the south. So, he didn&#039 ; t want to be from the south. WATSON: What did you do after you left the air force? HUNTLEY: When I left the air force I went to Minneapolis, Minnesota and I was enrolled in an electronics school, Control Data Institute. In fact, I was in the very first class that Control Data ever had for computer, it wasn&#039 ; t for computer programming, although we had programing. It was for computer technology, I guess. I finished school there. But while there we were, Barbara and I, my wife, we were married in &#039 ; 64. She was a senior at Tuskegee and I was going on my last year in the air force. She went back to Tuskegee and I went back to [inaudible]. So we were apart for that one year. Then, when I got out of the service I went to Minneapolis and she finished school and then she came to Minneapolis. So we met there and that&#039 ; s where we really first set our household. We were young, 22, I believe. That summer we both volunteered at a community center because she was going to be teaching in the fall. So, she started teaching in the fall and I started school in the fall at the electronics school. We stayed at the community center in the evenings. After finishing that electronics school I then went to work for Honeywell. I worked for Honeywell part time. Part of the time I was in the school and then I went to [inaudible] Control Data and I finished there. We still volunteered at the community center in the evenings. This was with young children. I was associated with the community, but the community was associated with the church. It&#039 ; s a Baptist Community Center. The kids were from elementary to high school age. It was rather interesting, because we were rather young ourselves. Barbara was, she looked like she was in 9th grade or something. She looked real young. We had a good rapport with the kids at the time. So, I went on and worked for a year at Control Data and after that year I decided, with some encouragement from Barbara, to go back to the University of Minnesota. So, that&#039 ; s when I started at the University. I was a 25 year old freshman during that time. WATSON: Ok, let&#039 ; s talk a little about your time at the University. A lot of important things happened while you were there. First of all what was the racial make up of the University of Minnesota when you entered? HUNTLEY: When I entered in 1967 there was about 47,000 students at the University of Minnesota. Out of 47,000 there were 87 Black students. The vast majority of those were from Minneapolis or St. Paul even. It was rather curious because in the south when we saw people we always spoke. The people in Minnesota, Blacks in Minnesota, if you see them on campus they wouldn&#039 ; t speak to you. There were I guess three or four of us from the south. I remember when I first met sister Rose Freeman. We became real good friends. She spoke and I spoke, I think, probably, simultaneously. It was a great feeling because we had been ignored. Nobody would speak before and we started talking and it was like we had been close friends for a long time. Then, we started, well actually she started a year before I got involved in the organization, Afro American Action Committee and I got involved with the group. Rose was president at the time. I got involved and remember I&#039 ; m a little bit older than most of the students. I knew what I had to do to get out of there. We spent a lot of time in the rec room. I would sort of tell the youngsters, &quot ; you need to get out of here and go to class.&quot ; So, we spent a lot of time together and then, trying to develop some of a cohesiveness with some of the Black students on campus. A lot of them were athletes and athletes were not involved at all. I got involved with the athletes through a fraternity. I joined the Omega Psi Phi fraternity. Most of the athletes were confused as well. As a result of that bond, we then got them involved in the Afro American Action Committee. That would lead to some real unified efforts on campus in relationship to a number of issues that we were involved in. WATSON: Okay. Could you just tell me a little bit about what the committee did? HUNTLEY: The committee was basically interested in getting more Black students enrolled at the University. We developed sort of a campaign to get that done. It was rather difficult because the administration didn&#039 ; t see the need in allocating funds for that. What we wanted to do was to set up in...&#039 ; 68 as a result of Dr. King&#039 ; s assassination. We want them to set up a Martin Luther King scholarship fund. They didn&#039 ; t see the need to do it at the time. We also were developing a national Black student conference, where we were attracting people from all over the country to come to the University of Minnesota. If people come here and find out what&#039 ; s here then some would probably enroll. The University wasn&#039 ; t interested in that as well. We also...I had an experience in one of my classes where, in an American History class. The professor&#039 ; s name was Professor Burkhoffer. Professor Burkhoffer, he didn&#039 ; t like students, period. (Laughing) He was very arrogant and no one ever spoke in his class. He lectured for 45 minutes and he left. If you wanted to talk about any issues you talk with his teaching assistants. So, one day he talked about slavery for about five minutes. That&#039 ; s the only time he mentioned Black folks in class. So, when I raised my hand, he didn&#039 ; t acknowledge my hand. So, I stood up. He still didn&#039 ; t acknowledge me. So, finally, I just interrupted him. I said, &quot ; Excuse me, Professor Burkhoffer.&quot ; He just looked at me and everybody else was just looking at me, too. I&#039 ; m the only Black, there were only two of us in the class out of probably 400. I asked him, &quot ; You just covered the subject of Black history in 5 minutes. The only time that you&#039 ; ve talked about Black people in this class is when you talked about slavery. Are you going to cover anything else where Blacks are concerned? Any Black history?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Oh, is there more?&quot ; very arrogantly. I said, &quot ; Sure there is and I started talking.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; ll give you equal time.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, does that mean that I will have the rest of the term to clear up many of the things that you&#039 ; ve been saying that&#039 ; s incorrect?&quot ; He didn&#039 ; t like that. He said, &quot ; No, I&#039 ; ll give you a class period.&quot ; So, he gave me a class period. I had, prior to coming to the University I had met a guy by the name of Mahmoud El-Kati. Mahmoud was a historian and he became my mentor. So when he told me he was going to give me a class period, I was kind of frightened, you know. I&#039 ; ve got to talk in front of people that I had never met before. So, I went and talked to Mahmoud. Mahmoud then gave me some advice on how to do it and where to get my material from. [inaudible] I don&#039 ; t even remember what I talked about but I remember feeling very good about it. After it was over...well prior to then, prior to my doing the talk, he tried to frighten me. He said, &quot ; Well, you know I&#039 ; m going to have all my TA&#039 ; s here and I will probably invite some of my colleagues over to listen to your lecture.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, that&#039 ; s fine.&quot ; I couldn&#039 ; t back up then. I said, &quot ; Well, do you think you could get Williams Arena and could you get WCCO TV here to tape it?&quot ; You know, I&#039 ; m just going on, you know. Anyway, I gave the lecture and then afterwards I felt good about it and I thought I had done a good job. I went over and asked him. He said, &quot ; You did a good job.&quot ; Everybody was coming up and praising me and everything. I knew that, now I&#039 ; m getting arrogant. I said, &quot ; Since I did such a good job, I would like that to be in lieu of my final exam.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Oh sure.&quot ; He did and he gave me a &quot ; C&quot ; out of the class. We then started clamoring for a development of an African American Studies Department. This time then there were three issues on the table. There was the African American Studies Department, the development of the Martin Luther King scholarship fund and asking the administration to assist us financially in carrying out the Black student conference. And on all three counts they said no. So, the Afro American Action Committee then went into session and we talked about what we were going to do to get them to change their mind. So, we decided then to go to the president. A delegation of us, I think three or four of us went up to his office to see him. When we got there they told us that he was out of town and that he would be back tomorrow or the next day around 1:00. We said, &quot ; We would like to have an appointment with him.&quot ; So, we sat up the appointment. We then went back to the rec center, the student union. That next meeting we had another meeting of the organization and this time there was probably 40 to 50 people there, because we had gotten the word out that we were going to talk to Malcolm Luss, who was the president of the school and we were going to demand these three items. So people were excited, you know, because this was the first time this had happened at the University of Minnesota. Somebody said, &quot ; What happens if they say no?&quot ; We couldn&#039 ; t decide on what we were going to do. We kept talking and talking and about a quarter to 1:00 we said, &quot ; We have to go.&quot ; So, we decided to leave. We went on to [inaudible] Hall, the administration building. There were probably 30 or 40 of us. We went into, I guess the board room. That&#039 ; s where we were going to meet. The president eventually came out and he sat and talked with us. We told him what we were demanding. And he said, &quot ; I really understand what you&#039 ; re saying, but I don&#039 ; t have the authority, but I can&#039 ; t do those things.&quot ; So, we said, &quot ; We pay our fees and we abide by that and the other and we thought it was necessary that we have an African American Studies Department. That it is only right to try to get more Black students here through a Martin Luther King Scholarship Fund. We can assist you in doing that. We also thought it was necessary that the University would have some Black program on campus and this Black student conference would bring some Black programming.&quot ; They said, &quot ; No, we couldn&#039 ; t do that either.&quot ; So, there were myself and sister Rose we got up and we walked downstairs. While we were walking we were just talking about what we were going to do. So, rather than leaving the building we then decided to go into the Bursar&#039 ; s Office. Everybody followed us into the Bursar&#039 ; s Office. Now you can imagine this is the University of Minnesota. You&#039 ; ve never seen this many Black folks together. You&#039 ; ve got 40 Black folk walking into the Bursar&#039 ; s Office and people are just amazed and startled. Once we got in there we decided that we were not going to leave until some of those demands were met. So we remained in the administration building. We allowed people to leave, but we didn&#039 ; t allow people to enter. They basically corded off the doors and did a sit-in. We were there overnight and overnight we then started negotiating with the administration. The administration sometime around 12:00, 1:00, or 2:00 in the morning they agreed on all three points. That next morning, it was day when we left. There were White students outside and they were really upset because they were saying you can&#039 ; t shut down our University. Our refrain to them was we&#039 ; ve been shut out of society for 300 years and they can&#039 ; t be shut out one day without saying they are going to charge the building and do some damage or bodily harm to us, you know. That never came before that morning. They surround, the White students surround the administration building and the buildings at Minnesota were connected by tunnels. So, rather then us going out through the crowd, we went out through the tunnel to the other side of the mob and all the way down to the end of the mob and back across to another building and then out to the outside. When we got down there we looked back and there was a huge crowd of White students. We just turned around and we waved at them. (Laughing) I think if we would have come out, directly out of that building there probably would have been some disturbances. So the administration suggested that we take that route and we did. We got that done. We got the department, the African American Studies Department. We were on the community that developed it. We basically, we didn&#039 ; t have a vote or anything, but we were very forceful in how we wanted the department to look because they were saying that there were not people qualified to teach. So, we brought Mahmoud and we recruited several other people from out of town. Three of us were arrested as a result of the take over. The administration said they were going to deal with us but the city government...The mayor&#039 ; s name was Stenven. Mayor Stenven decided, I don&#039 ; t guess it was Stenven but anyway, the grand jury indicted us. That then made for a unified force on campus because the campus, at that time the Vietnam War was going on, so White students were actively involved in that. So, they supported us and we had a demonstration, the day that we were arrested there was a demonstration about 10,000 students marched from the University to the downtown courthouse. We had a huge, massive inside and outside the court house. The White students, the student government association, the students for a democratic society and a number of other organizations were very supportive and that sort of galvanized the activist on campus anyway. So, we were tried and we were found not guilty on destruction of property and whatever. I think we got a misdemeanor. It was an experience that really galvanized that campus for Black and White students against the administration and in favor of change. As a result of that, we got Martin Luther King Scholarship Program that created slots for Black students. We developed the African American Studies Department. They actually paid for the student conference that we had. During that conference we had Jim Turner, who&#039 ; s now a professor at Cornell University. At that time he was a graduate student at Northwestern University. He&#039 ; s in local science, I believe, or maybe Urban Studies. He was one of the speakers that we invited up. We had Muhammad Ali. We had a dance troop from Harlem, we had several brothers from Washington D.C. start an organization called Pride and we had students all over the country as far as California that came to that student conference. So, we were very proud of being able to pull that together and to organize it to the extent to show the administration the necessity for developing those kinds of programs. As a result of that, the department actually recruited people from all over the country and it became one of the premiere programs. As a result of that, myself and sister Rose became two of the first graduates with a degree in African American Studies in the country. WATSON: You were very much a part of the Black power movements that were going on in &#039 ; 65 directly. You were doing some of the same things that were going on at other campuses. HUNTLEY: Right. We had relationships with other campuses. The Black power movement...in fact, I remember meeting Stokley Carmichael for the first time on campus. Right after he, in &#039 ; 66 on the march of the Mississippi, where he talked about what Black people need, Black power. I guess it was probably &#039 ; 68 when he came to campus and gave a speech. Sister Rose knew him personally because she was in &quot ; SNICK&quot ; in Mississippi. She was from Greenville, Mississippi. So, they knew each other personally and she got Stokley up there to speak. There were a number of individuals that we got to come to speak. Yeah, it was right in the...the Black Panther Party, of course, was very active. There&#039 ; s an active Panther Party in Minneapolis. We knew all those guys and they were very closely associated with us. So, when we went to the administration building they were there to help us out. Supposedly, they were there to protect us. So there was a real close knit Black community in Minneapolis at the time. Since I was working in the community, I didn&#039 ; t live on campus. I lived in South Minneapolis. Sister Rose worked at a community center in North Minneapolis. That&#039 ; s where Black folk lived in North and South Minneapolis. So when we went to the administration building, people from the community came to our rescue. So, it was really rather uniquely developed in that we had those, that we were not isolated from the community, that we were actually apart of the community. WATSON: Ok, I want to back up a little. One of the demands that the group made was for a scholarship fund in Martin Luther King&#039 ; s name. I just want to ask you, do you remember where you were and what you were doing when Martin Luther King was assassinated? HUNTLEY: Yes, we were at the community center. I remember that the kids were really excited. They wanted to get out in the street and some did. It wasn&#039 ; t like Chicago or anyplace but there were some throwing at cars and that kind of thing. I remember initially we took all of the kids downstairs in the church and we sat and talked about it, what it meant. Once we left then sort of all havoc broke out. There were some disturbances and actually there were some Whites that came through the community at that time driving suspiciously, you know. I don&#039 ; t know whether they were attempting to cause some problems or what. But I remember our following one of the cars and it had two or three White boys, or men, or whatever to see that they were just going to go on through the community, rather than stop and create some problems. It was a rather difficult time. As a result of that we...at Dr. King&#039 ; s funeral we were able to take, I don&#039 ; t know how many kids we took, but we took a lot of kids to Atlanta to the funeral. General Mills, Three M and several other big companies donated their planes. We were able to take some kids to Atlanta to the funeral. WATSON: So you were able to attend Dr. King&#039 ; s funeral? HUNTLEY: Yes. WATSON: Ok, now you graduated from the University of Minnesota. You have one of the first degrees in African American Studies. Where did you go from there? HUNTLEY: Well, actually we had volunteered for Peace Corps. We were going to Ghana. We were due to leave for two weeks to come to Atlanta for orientation, but prior to that, we had to take physical exams. When we took the physical exams, we found out that Barbara was expecting our first child. So, that changed our whole lives. We didn&#039 ; t make the trip to Ghana. Then, I had a fellowship offer to go to Syracuse University. We took that. We went to Syracuse where I did my masters. I was in school for a year and then the program had another year where we would actually teach. So, I went to school the first year and the second year I taught at the State University of New York at Oswego. It was upstate New York, about 40 miles, I guess, northwest of Syracuse. WATSON: After that did you go on to get your doctorate? HUNTLEY: No, from there I took a job at the University of Maryland, Eastern Shore. I was there for a year. From there I then received another fellowship to do the doctorate at the University of Pittsburgh. At the University of Pittsburgh I met David Montgomery, who was the chairman of the History Department at that time. He was a labor historian. Now he is the number one labor historian in the world. David and I became very close friends. So, I then started to do African American Labor History. My topic was the International Union of Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers as it was organized here in Birmingham in the 1930s. It was an interracial experiment I always say. An interracial labor union. WATSON: Ok then, you said you went to the University of Pittsburgh for your doctorate? HUNTLEY: Right. WATSON: Ok. Once you were in Pittsburgh what did you do your doctoral dissertation on, what was the subject? HUNTLEY: The International Union of Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers. I did that because there was really very little that was written about Mine Mill, particularly in Birmingham. I found several pages in a book that talked about Mine Mill in Birmingham. My grandfather had been a member of the Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers Union and I remember very vaguely while I was growing up something about labor. I remember something about the barber shop and old men coming in, oh they were probably 30 at the time. They would come in and talk about what was happening at the mine. I didn&#039 ; t, of course, pay any attention then. As I started the study it was like I remember some of those men at the barber shop. So that began my first effort to really digging into the history of Black labor. I did that as an oral history project. So, my dissertation was based primarily on oral histories. WATSON: This was one of your first experiments on oral histories. A time when it probably wasn&#039 ; t very popular to do. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s right. It was not very popular to do oral history at the time. Labor history and Black history both were not looked upon very favorably even in the academic community. Dave Montgomery, who was a popular historian and we just became real good friends, he then became my mentor in terms of labor, because he knew his labor history. He sort of corrected what didn&#039 ; t wreck my dissertation. WATSON: Ok. Now you have your Ph.D. what do you do from there? HUNTLEY: I, in June, well actually, I had come home the year before, a year and a half before I finished up. I went over to the University, UAB, to the history department to see if I can find sources. I couldn&#039 ; t find any sources, but I was approached by the chair of the department. She asked me if I ever considered coming back home after I finished up. Of course I had, but I played hard to get. So she said, &quot ; why don&#039 ; t you call me when you get close to finishing. We would like to talk to you.&quot ; So, I decided to, I did. They sent for, they wanted me to come down for an interview. I was talking to Barbara, she was just the opposite. I always said I was going to come back to Birmingham once I finished up and she said she would never live in Alabama again. So, as we discussed coming back she said she didn&#039 ; t want to come back to Birmingham, that she wasn&#039 ; t coming back. So, I called UAB and told them that we decided that we were not going to come. They asked why. I told them. They said, &quot ; why don&#039 ; t we send for your whole family, your wife and your children?&quot ; So, they did. They wined and dined us for three days. I promised Barbara we would just be here for a couple of years. If you don&#039 ; t like it we can leave. When we got here, we were at a party at some sort and somebody said, &quot ; Oh, you&#039 ; re back home. How long are you going to be here?&quot ; I said, &quot ; We&#039 ; re here to stay.&quot ; She never let me live that down. We&#039 ; ve been here now for a long time, since &#039 ; 76, that&#039 ; s 22 years. WATSON: I know you&#039 ; ve been involved in a lot of different things since you returned to Birmingham. So, let&#039 ; s just start with things you&#039 ; ve done at UAB. First of all, I would like to know about the courses that you taught when you came back to teach at UAB. HUNTLEY: Initially, I started teaching African American History, American History and Urban Studies. What I was trying to do, I was developing a sequence in African American History, a three course sequence. It went very well. I taught an American History course one term and then, next term I would have to teach a graduate level Urban Studies. Eventually, then, I would start teaching the Urban Studies because I had a joint appointment between History and Urban Studies. So, I teach...a full load is two courses per term. I had not finished the doctorate when I arrived here. I still had to finish the dissertation. My first term here I completed the dissertation and I would go back to defend it in December. That&#039 ; s when I would be awarded the degree the following term. So, my with appointment being both History and Urban Studies I taught in both departments. By the same token I had taught, I had talked with them, prior to coming, about establishing an African American Studies program. In &#039 ; 78 I started writing a proposal for that program. It was finally, I guess in &#039 ; 79 or so it was instituted. It was an interdisciplinary program and I established a three quarter sequence in African American History. Other people from various disciplines would offer courses periodically. For awhile it worked ok but what happened was that after a time my courses were the only courses that were not being offered on a regular basis. So students then would have difficulty in completing the 18 hours. So, I then, I had to start giving independent studies to have people to be able to complete the minor. We did that and I&#039 ; m not sure how many students actually minored in that, but there were quite a number. I knew that, that simply couldn&#039 ; t last. So we started talking about a necessity for a department of African American Studies. This is probably after ten years or so. The administration would never permit the resources to do that. So then, they would always say they just didn&#039 ; t have the money because that&#039 ; s a commitment to me. So, myself and a couple of other Black faculty members went to the State Senator and asked him if he would allocate money to develop a department. We talked and he researched it and he came back and said he would put in a half million dollars a year for our Black studies department. The administration was livid. They said that they didn&#039 ; t want him to do that because that would take away from other programs and they would not go along with it. The Senator was Fred Horn. He said that he would see to it that the money would in fact be there. They fought it. Eventually what it really came down to was Fred would lose the election and that would be the end of that money. We couldn&#039 ; t get the other legislators to be as forceful as Fred was. Fred was chair of the financing within the state. He held the purse strings and he could have done it, but the administration was totally opposed to it. What they decided to do was, what they call, enhance the program. So they hired someone else and brought that person in and now they are supposedly enhancing that program with a list of courses about the same number that I had and they are having the same problems that I was having, is that the courses are not offered on a regular basis. Our argument was that if you had a department then you have people, you bring people in specifically to teach African American Studies. What is happening is that they look upon African American Studies in the same way that Whites looked upon Blacks, that&#039 ; s being negatively, because I doubt very seriously that if a person simply had an interest in history or a history buff would be allowed to come to the history department to teach a history course. That would not be allowed in any other department but for African American Studies. The only thing a person would have is an interest in the disciplines, not necessarily in the training. See, I&#039 ; m the only one on campus that had the degree in African American Studies. What they would do is send out a letter that would ask people would you like to teach a course in African American Studies. That is what the administration allowed. So, I then sort of disassociated myself from that process because it obviously was not meeting the standards that were being set by agencies that were looking at African American Studies. Of course, it didn&#039 ; t meet my standards. WATSON: Alright now you were now challenging the status quo and the UAB adminstration. Did you feel any personal repercussions as a result of your actions? Or was there any problems between yourself, or the administration, or the faculty over that? HUNTLEY: Well there&#039 ; s been a court case, trying to think of the name of it, Higher Education Court Case in the state of Alabama that was looking at the inequities in the development of education in Black institutions and White institutions. I actually testified against White institutions because, you know, for obvious reasons. The Universtiy of Alabama in Tuscaloosa made a statement that they never had a policy of segregation. (Laughing) It&#039 ; s very obvious that the funding has been inequitable. So, I was brought into the case and made statements, that is public information right now, about how education had saved Alabama and what had happened, also about Black studies. The judge...what had happened, initially, Judge U. W. Clemmons was a city judge on the case. They removed him from the case, because he said he had been a civil rights lawyer and he was Black. What they had put on the case instead was an old White man from Rome, Georgia, Judge Murphy and he&#039 ; s probably in his late 60s, probably 70 years old. What kind of.... HUNTLEY: Judge Murphy was anti-black for anything but how could you suggest that Judge Clemmons was going to be bias and that Judge Murphy would not be bias from another perspective. So, I then testified, as a result of making that testimony, there were actually people in my department who stopped speaking to me. There was a number of other things that would take place. I got the impression that the department was attempting to isolate me. I always told them that you can not isolate me because I&#039 ; m at home. My life was not totally focused on what you&#039 ; re doing here. I have a life outside the university. Of course, they attempted to change my title to adjunct professor ; that alone with other things, the letter writing campaigns. I had to write the dean. I had an encounter with all the vice-presidents. The vice- presidents once came to one of the Black history programs. The program was titled something like, &quot ; What was it like being Black on a White college campus.&quot ; He invited himself to participate. He came over with all kinds of statistics and how much progress UAB was making and that we were, had increased by x number. I just asked him, &quot ; well [inaudible] if you&#039 ; re giving those statistics I would like to know some names. I&#039 ; ve been here for 15 years. Tell me who are these people you are talking about that you&#039 ; ve added to the faculty, because I don&#039 ; t know any of them.&quot ; Afterwards, he came to me and he said that was intellectually dishonest. I said, &quot ; you&#039 ; re right. Everything you presented was intellectually dishonest.&quot ; He got upset and I got upset and we almost went to blows. We didn&#039 ; t but that was part of the encounters I was having. I basically would tell whoever raised some issues, if they were not telling the truth I would raise questions about it and that&#039 ; s not something you do as a Black man in this country. You accept it and you go with it tail tucked. I refused to do that. As a result, a number of things happened. WATSON: I want to talk a little bit about the things that you&#039 ; ve done in the city. Before that, I just remembered something. I know you requested your FBI file through the Freedom of Information Act. I was wondering if you could tell us if you found...I know you&#039 ; ve done a lot so, I was wondering if there were any interesting things in there that you might want to share with us about... HUNTLEY: Well actually they did a very good job in following me everywhere. (Laughing) I remember once when I was at home early, early morning about 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning. This voice from someplace, I was dreaming, I guess, it said, &quot ; get up and look out your window.&quot ; I did. I got up and looked out my window and there was a guy underneath my car. It was in the winter and there was snow on the ground and he was underneath my car. I recognized him. He was one of the guys that was in our organization. So the next morning I went out, I didn&#039 ; t go out that night. I thought it was going to blow up or something. So I went out and they had a little device. It happened to be a homing device, I guess, just to let them know where I am or whatever. He was obviously working undercover within the organization. When we were in the administration building we found out during the trial that he was on the phone the whole time giving whatever we did, he was telling someone. I don&#039 ; t know who he was talking to. All that was in the file. It didn&#039 ; t name the person but I happened to put two and two together and could determine who it was. It was amazing because although I was active, there were a lot of people that were a lot more active than I. I had nearly 300 pages in my FBI File. So they were...one of the things that they consistently did was they just tried to follow whatever you did. When I left Minneapolis and went to Syracuse they followed me there. I wrote a letter to the insurance company because the insurance company had dropped my insurance. I don&#039 ; t know why, I may have gotten a ticket or whatever but I wrote them a very heated letter about how the Black community would not look very favorable upon this. They sent a guy from Minneapolis to Syracuse to talk with me about that. That is in my files. You name it and if I did it, it&#039 ; s in my file. WATSON: Ok, now let&#039 ; s go ahead and talk a little bit about the things that went on, not at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, but within the city itself. I wanted to start with the Board of Education of the city. I know that because the city is predominantly Black, the school system certainly is predominantly Black that you favor an Afrocentric education and that you&#039 ; ve pushed for that. I wanted to know sort of the specifics of that and what your position is and what you&#039 ; ve done to try to get that. HUNTLEY: Ok, Birmingham proper is about 65% Black. The school system is 93% Black. But we&#039 ; ve been under core for a long time now to have the faculty, it&#039 ; s 50/50. The faculty usually is about 50/50 but the student population is 93% Black, which meant really that&#039 ; s...there&#039 ; s a reason for that because you have to look at how the neighborhoods are situated. In the &#039 ; 60s when Blacks started to move, actually when UAB bought all that property on the Southside that was a neighborhood, that was a community. Sixth Avenue Baptist Church was right where...it was on 6th Avenue and 16th Street South. On the same corner on the north side, 6th Avenue and 16th Street North, was Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. They were sister churches you know but UAB came in and purchased all that land. Sixteenth Street and the whole community was displaced. So then, African American people started moving into West End and other neighborhoods that happened to have been White. As soon as they moved in Whites moved out. So, of course, that created then a situation just as in many other urban areas when Black folks move into the area, White folks start moving out to the suburbs. I remember when I moved back to Birmingham in &#039 ; 76. I moved into the West End area and right next to me was an older White man. A week or so after I moved in a for sale sign up. We were out one day and I talked to him and asked him, &quot ; Why are you moving?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Oh, the community is just deteriorating.&quot ; Here I am a Ph.D. my life is in line, but the neighborhood is deteriorating because Black folk moved in next door to you. So, that then will result in the city becoming a predominately Black city. The school system becoming overwhelming Black. Still in Birmingham and some other places you still had to fight to get courses on Black history, Black culture or whatever in the school systems. You can still talk to kids today and they still don&#039 ; t have a lot of it, although Black people are in control of the system now. So there are some...if we are in control of the school system then why not look at an African centered curriculum just as been done in other places. We are clamoring mostly from Black folks the authority. We are apologetic to Whites because we were raised in this kind of issue. Another issue that we raise is that White people move out of the city and Black people will be in control, but we&#039 ; re still retaining 40% of the school board for Whites. I said, That&#039 ; s ridiculous, you know. Why should White people have 40% of the school board when they are only 7% of the student population. Those parents and those people who live in the city lives here. They need to have that control of the city. Even some Black people disagree with that because they want to be multi-cultural. I don&#039 ; t have any difficulty with that, but I&#039 ; m looking at the reality of it. The reality of it is, it&#039 ; s a Black system and that we need to be able to control our own destinies. It appeared that we were doing the very same thing that we had done even during the segregation era. Like when Dr. King first came to Birmingham, there were Black folks that said that he was an outside agitator and that he shouldn&#039 ; t come in because all he&#039 ; s gonna do is hurt the progress that we had made in race relations, even though we hadn&#039 ; t made any. These were people that were in prominent positions, Blacks in prominent positions. I see the same thing happening. So, I was actually appointed, I don&#039 ; t know why they appointed me to this advisory committee to the board to advise them on the development of a strategic plan. One of my issues was that of African centered education. There were student representation on the board, I mean on the committee, who happened to have agreed with me. There were others on the committee that agreed. They would only agree in private. In fact, we had a meeting at my house and there were probably six or seven of us there. All of us agreed that this was our strategy and we would see that this happened. We got back to the big meeting with 30 something people. There were two that would speak. The others just sat there, didn&#039 ; t say anything. The point is what we were attempting to do is to make the system reflect the history culture of the people that is was serving. That became very difficult to do. We still have not achieved that, we&#039 ; re still working on it. WATSON: I know you also got involved with the city government of Birmingham. You ran for city council, but before we get into that I would like to know a little bit about some of the things that you did, to the efforts that you made in relation to the government of Birmingham before that time. HUNTLEY: Well, I&#039 ; ve been involved with the community for some time. We&#039 ; ve been active in our neighborhood with just everyday amenities, talking about those kinds of things. I&#039 ; ve been actively involved, like the Birmingham Historical Society, a trustee for the society. I was also a member of the Birmingham Historical Commission. What we did, we looked at historical sites and tried to get places renovated rather than torn down. One of the things that really...one of the most devastating things that was happening with the historical sites is that the terminal station, which was a very historic site was demolished. We only have pictures of that now. So, the commission was developed to see that that would not happen any longer. Originally, as I&#039 ; ve been involved with the Million Man March, I&#039 ; ve been chair of the local organizing committee of the Million Man March. Of course, there was a lot of controversy in that because Minister Louis Farrakahn called the Million Man March in &#039 ; 96 and just as we reacted to Malcolm X in the &#039 ; 60s people still reacted to Minister Farrakahn the same way. They tried to paint him one way. They tried to paint him as anti-Semitic and anti-White without really listening to what he was saying. I think that we have to really start making determinations for ourselves rather than allowing people outside of our community to make decisions for us. We have to make decisions about who we are supportive of. I can remember in the &#039 ; 60s when Malcolm was talking, there would be people who were prominent who would agree with him in private, but in public they were afraid. We have the same kind of situation today. As a member of the local organizing of the Million Man March we&#039 ; ve developed a present support group. We&#039 ; ve developed a mechanism by which Black kids could be adopted because we found that Black kids are usually the last ones to be adopted. Many didn&#039 ; t have homes. We have, the local organizing committees also, one of the initiatives have been the development of an African centered education in the public school system. So, there have been a number of issues that we have attempted to focus on and we&#039 ; re still doing those things. WATSON: When you eventually ran to try to become a member of the city council, how exactly did you get involved in that? How did that happen? What were some of your reactions to the whole process? HUNTLEY: People had approached me a year and a half before the election and asked me if I would run for city council. I told them I really didn&#039 ; t have interest in running for city council. So, they said don&#039 ; t make a decision now but sometime before the election, you know, a year or so before the election you should let us know if you will or not. It came down the year before and I told them that I still hadn&#039 ; t changed my mind, but I would give them a definite answer by the first of the year. That gave me eight months, no, ten months before the election. So the first of the year I still didn&#039 ; t want to run. So, I told them, &quot ; I really appreciate you asking but I was really not interested in a political career.&quot ; So, they wouldn&#039 ; t take no for an answer. So in June they asked me again. I said no and I went away on vacation in July. When I came back, I had been drafted to run. I sat down with the people who drafted me. It was a coalition of organizations. I really couldn&#039 ; t dispute what they were saying. So, I then said, &quot ; ok if you can gather the troops I will sit with it.&quot ; So, that&#039 ; s really the way it happened. Then, it was really late. It was five weeks before the election. We gathered the troops and I had really good people working with me. I was [inaudible] in the political arena. I didn&#039 ; t know anything about it. William Muhammad and Don Blankenship sort of lead my, the campaign. They had experience. We just got to work and what happened they knew basically how a campaign should be run. They started the process and I was very comfortable in going out talking to people. So, we walked the neighborhoods every evening. Sometimes I would just walk it by myself just talking with people. I had approached some people and they said, &quot ; Horace you&#039 ; re too late. If you would have come earlier I would have supported you. I have committed to someone else.&quot ; I understood that because I did wait too late. Finally, what happened of course is that the day of the election the front runner, she was enormous, she had about 49% or something like that and I came in second. So, there was a run off between us. I think we had another three weeks to run and in those three weeks I gained momentum and she added 300 votes to her numbers and I added close to 1100 votes to mine. I still fell short, ran out of time. I didn&#039 ; t have money. In fact, I borrowed $5,000.00 and then we solicited funds. There were people that came and wanted to donate to the campaign that I didn&#039 ; t want any donations from, so we refused those. There were people who came and wanted to do things for us, but they had ulterior motives. Everybody has an ulterior motive, but there are some, you know, you see the writing on the wall and I didn&#039 ; t want to go that route. Don and William were very protective of me, because they wouldn&#039 ; t allow certain people to get to me. A lot of folks would go through them to try to get to me. They wouldn&#039 ; t allow that to happen. What I learned out of the whole process is that people will do whatever it takes to control the Black community. There are some complicity by Black folk because at the end, after the election I was in fact...well, the main focus of my platform was that I thought that we should be developing Black businesses in the city. The Black businesses should have the opportunity to compete with anybody, with all the contracts that were being developed. Since the city is a predominately Black city, 65% and people still talking about 10% set asides, I thought that was ridiculous. I think that we should have at least 50% of all contracts. Of course, people disagreed with that in saying that Black businesses just can&#039 ; t do big jobs. I would ask the question, &quot ; How do White businesses get the chance to do the big jobs then?&quot ; The reason is because they had an unfair advantage during the segregation era and they took advantage of that. So, there must be some creative ways in which you can help develop the Black community to level that playing field and without that we&#039 ; re all being hypocritical. After the election was over the mayor wrote an article in the paper saying that I was a member of the sale of Black republicans in town (Laughing) and that we met on a regular basis. I wrote a response to that and, in fact, I called him at his home and asked him about it. He said, &quot ; Well, Horace that&#039 ; s what somebody told me.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, you should&#039 ; ve had the courtesy to ask me about it before you put it in the paper.&quot ; He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m sorry. I will...&quot ; He said he was going to make a statement about what I had said to him in his next column. He did. He said exactly what I had said to him. Then, I wrote a response because he was saying that my campaign was financed by White republicans and I get all kinds of technical assistance from them. They tried to give me some assistance but I wouldn&#039 ; t accept it. They, of course, didn&#039 ; t give me any money. I was appalled and I told the mayor that I was appalled because what you are saying is that all of these Black people that have worked so hard in that campaign, that you are not giving them the credit. You&#039 ; re giving the credit to somebody that&#039 ; s exterior to us. I want to know how in the world that you can suggest that I&#039 ; m a republican. I&#039 ; m not a republican, nor am I a democrat. However, you suggest that I&#039 ; m a republican and I&#039 ; m talking about affirmative action, not this [inaudible] but really looking at the betterment of the community from a board perspective. In fact, I pointed out my opponent received money from...about $30,000 dollars from people who were in fact known republicans. These are the people that have been solicited by the coalition that the mayor is president of or has been president of. So, I raised the question that it seems to be rather peculiar that you accuse me, that I&#039 ; m a republican and receive republican money when everybody knows that the money that Pat received was in fact republican money from the Drummond Coal Company and other areas here. As it stood it was obvious that the coalition may have decided that they needed people who would certainly listen to them without question. Of course, I had not been one that had a very good track record of certainly listening and obeying without question. WATSON: Now we come to the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. You&#039 ; ve been involved, I know, with the Institute since the planning stages. I wanted to know a little bit about how the whole thing got started. What was your involvement, just a little bit about the early stages.HUNTLEY: 19, I believe it was &#039 ; 81, Mayor Arrington had made a determination that we needed some type of memorial to the Civil Rights Movement. He appointed myself and former mayor, David Vann as co-chairs of the Civil Rights Museum task force, as it was called at that time. We then started to develop, trying to develop a concept about what all of this would mean and how it would be formulated. We spent a couple of years doing that and finally we ended that portion, that task force, because we thought we had come to a point where we had basically sort of hashed out what the Institute, or the Museum at the time this was called, would...the concept of it. We couldn&#039 ; t find money for it. Eventually, the city sold a building for, I say, a million dollars. The mayor decided we could use that funding, so we constituted the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute task force at that time. I was apart of that. I was not chair anymore, but I was apart of that task force. We then took what we developed earlier and refined it. We worked from, I believe it was &#039 ; 86 to the opening in &#039 ; 92. I don&#039 ; t remember exactly how many people were on that task force, but I think most of those that were on that would become part of the first Board of Directors. I would be one of those on the first Board of Directors. I served as, from a historical perspective, I was looking at the material to make sure they were historically accurate. What we did, we actually hired three film makers and each of those film makers would take a gallery, I think one or two of them had two galleries upstairs. They would develop the concept and all of the materials for that. They would then bring it back to the task force. We would review it and make recommendations, corrections, or whatever. They would take it back and then come back again. Over a period of that four or five years this is what we would have. Those initial stages we simply had the...we would meet periodically. We would give charges to the various film makers and they would go out and do their work and send material back. We would read it and then they would bring in the final product. We would evaluate it and in most cases we would make some changes. That&#039 ; s basically the way the Institute then would primarily be developed, as far as concept was concerned. WATSON: Now you&#039 ; ll later become the director of the Oral History Project of the Institute, for which we are doing this interview today. I wanted to know a little bit about how you got involved with the Oral History Project, how it was first conceived and what&#039 ; s the purpose of the Oral History Project? HUNTLEY: Well, the purpose, of course, is to be certain the stories of people who were actively involved in the movement would be told. We would develop a mechanism by which that could happen. We talked about that really very early in the conceptualization of the Institute itself. Since I had, had experience doing oral histories and doing scholarly work in the oral history profession, I was asked if I would be willing to direct the Oral History Project here for the Institute. At that point I did resign from the Board of Directors to come on. I requested time from the University. So, I&#039 ; m actually on half-time leave from the University doing the Oral History Project, while still teaching at UAB. So, I offer a course per term and I do this. Now in developing with the process we looked at a number of other Oral History Projects. I guess the one that had probably the most influence upon the way that we developed this one was University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. They were doing basically the same thing from a national perspective. They interviewed people in various cities for, I guess, three or four summers. We have the material that they gathered here in Birmingham, well in Alabama. We have that here in our archives. The Oral History Project is necessary for the purpose of being able to gather the various stories, the various histories, of people that were actively involved and not just looking at the leaders of them, although we&#039 ; ve interviewed leaders as well, but we wanted to look at grass roots individuals. People that were faceless and nameless as we view the demonstrations. Today we&#039 ; ve interviewed nearly 200 people, which consist of men and women, Black and White and many that were children during the time. We&#039 ; ve talked about expanding the concept. Primarily, we looked at the Birmingham Movement. We probably want to look at that from a state, as well as regional perspective as well. Eventually we will. WATSON: You&#039 ; re one of the earliest Ph.D.&#039 ; s in African American Studies, who got one of the first degrees. You helped to create one of the earliest programs. I just wanted to know what&#039 ; s your view of the future, not only of programs and departments for African American and African Studies but also for the future of Afrocentric education in younger Black children? HUNTLEY: Well, I think it&#039 ; s...really we&#039 ; re just at a point now in African centered education where we were probably in the early &#039 ; 60s, with just talking about having a Black history program. We&#039 ; re in those emphasis stages. I think the future is very bright, although there are a lot of distractions when you start talking about African centered education, because many people look at that in the same way that they looked at anyone that was positively Black in the &#039 ; 60s. If you were positive about Blackness that meant that you were negative about Whiteness, which really was not the case. That&#039 ; s the way many people viewed that. So, people are viewing African centered education as being anti-anybody else. That&#039 ; s not the case at all. What we&#039 ; re simply saying is that there&#039 ; s a necessity for our children, as well as others to be able to study the history and culture from a perspective that is different than the perspective that all of us have studied it from up to this day. African centered education is going to prove to them that it creates an atmosphere where children, not only appreciate themselves, but other folk will appreciate them as well. So I think it&#039 ; s very, very necessary that we look at it very critically, but we also look at it through the perspective that it&#039 ; s going to enhance. I think that with all of the difficulties that we are having in early [African] Americans now...one of the reasons that we are having those difficulties is because we don&#039 ; t know who we are. We think we are less than anyone else. The reason we think that is because of the lack of courage in us as adults to say to whoever is, is necessary to say it to that we don&#039 ; t care how you feel about this, this is what my child is going to be prepared in and will be prepared with. If we fail to do that other people will not do that for us. The only people that will be able to do that is going to be you and I. Many times we find that there are many people that look just like us that are in fact in opposition to that kind of change. That&#039 ; s not unusual, but what we have to do is to be patient with them and go on and over time they will come, but you can not stop. You have to continue to be persistent in your demands and persistent in making certain that people understand your arguments and discussions. Simply start some programs in that area. Without that we will, 20 years from now, 30 years from now we will be fighting the same struggle again. WATSON: In that same vein I want to discuss the African American and African History Departments and Programs on college campuses throughout the country. There&#039 ; s been a lot of discussion even some of the former Civil Rights Leaders have made statements to the effect that Black students on college campuses today can&#039 ; t do anything with a degree in African American Studies or African Studies. I want to know how you feel about the future of these programs and these departments now that so many graduates are being given this message that they shouldn&#039 ; t be involved in that and that they should go with something more traditional. HUNTLEY: Well, I was always asked the question, which really is a rhetorical question, &quot ; what are you going to do with a degree in history? What does one do with a degree in sociology, any of the social behaviors or sciences?&quot ; What you do is you go to graduate school. You go to law school. You get a job in a...with the government or whatever. Whatever is being done in social behavior sciences now that&#039 ; s what African American Studies majors will do with a degree. Some of the &quot ; leaders&quot ; that made those kinds of statements are very, rather short sighted and I think they are being apologetic to White society by saying...I put them in the same category that those that came to Birmingham and said, well, when Dr. King came to Birmingham those people that said that he was an outside agitator and that they didn&#039 ; t need him here because things were not as bad as they thought had been reported. Those individuals will have to understand that we&#039 ; re not necessarily talking about anti- anything. We are very much pro-Black. Some people will say that you can&#039 ; t be pro- Black without being anti-White. I think that&#039 ; s a misconception. That is not to demean anyone else&#039 ; s culture, but it is to enhance our own. If one is to understand that this is to be a multi-racial, multi-ethnic society then everyone, not just my children, but everyone is going to have to know something about me. If you don&#039 ; t, you don&#039 ; t have respect for me. So, I think we have to gather and understand that part of the concept. If we can understand that and then start a discussion about it then we [inaudible]. WATSON: Well, Dr. Huntley, we&#039 ; ve covered a lot today. I wanted to know if there is anything that we haven&#039 ; t asked specific questions about that you would just like to add for the record? HUNTLEY: Well, I think we&#039 ; ve probably covered the gambit, but I&#039 ; m sure I&#039 ; ll think of some things later on, but right now I think we&#039 ; ve covered about as much as we need to cover. WATSON: Ok. Well, I would like to thank you, Dr. Huntley, for taking time out of your schedule to talk with us today. HUNTLEY: Thank you, sir and ma&#039 ; am. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=HHuntley1998.xml HHuntley1998.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dr. Horace Huntley Description An account of the resource Dr. Horace Huntley discusses advocating for the creation of African American Studies programs at various institutions, including UAB. His civil rights rights involvement led to an extensive file and surveillance by the FBI. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19980526H Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham University of Alabama in Birmingham. Center for Urban Studies Federal Bureau of Investigation surveillance files Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1998-05-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/c376ed2a3bc681774317afe5be7adb1a.jpg b62e2f108ee78484cf1db6aecdd93679 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed James T. Montgomery OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JTMontgomery1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 University Hospital (Birmingham, Ala.) King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 September 22, 1995 Dr. James T. Montgomery 19950922M 1:14:50 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham African Americans in medicine Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 University Hospital (Birmingham, Ala.) King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 James T. Montgomery Horace Huntley Video 1:|22(11)|43(10)|58(8)|71(10)|84(10)|99(9)|114(9)|126(6)|142(1)|154(5)|165(7)|182(6)|193(3)|221(1)|235(4)|249(6)|264(5)|281(1)|291(13)|307(6)|322(14)|337(10)|351(7)|368(15)|381(9)|400(15)|416(1)|428(1)|452(3)|469(5)|486(14)|500(1)|515(1)|526(1)|541(13)|559(10)|576(11)|594(6)|609(5)|628(4)|648(7)|661(11)|673(1)|690(2)|703(9)|715(10)|732(13)|746(9)|762(14)|777(9)|797(14)|815(3)|829(9)|848(2)|859(3)|875(12)|888(7)|902(6)|919(8)|933(4)|947(11)|966(16)|978(11)|991(10)|1006(1)|1021(2)|1038(3)|1053(6)|1066(9)|1083(6)|1101(6)|1114(11)|1131(9)|1144(3) 0 https://youtu.be/djFlbf3ZhEs YouTube video English 0 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Dr. James T. Montgomery for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project. Dr. James T. Montgomery is introduced. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history interview African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 23 Family Background Thank you. I just want to start by asking some general kinds of questions on your background. Montgomery states that his family were native to Alabama, and that he was born in Atmore along with three brothers and two sisters. His family moved to Birmingham in 1936. Atmore (Ala.) ; Beatrice (Ala.) ; Bellville (Ala.) ; Grocery store employee African American families 183 Educational Background Tell me what was Rosedale High School like. Montgomery describes his experience at Rosedale High School and the surrounding community. He states that he afterwards received scholarships to attend Morehouse College, but he struggled due to the differing educational standards. African American college students Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; Rosedale High School (Homewood, Ala.) 528 Medical School at Howard University At what point did you decide that you were going to medical school? Montgomery explains that he went to medical school at Howard University because he had done pre-med at Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia. However, from 1947 to 1949, he taught at A.H. Parker High School in Birmingham in order to afford the tuition. He compares and contrasts the social climates of the two cities, stating that Atlanta was more progressive and Birmingham more segregated. A.H. Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; African Americans--Segregation ; Howard University. College of Medicine ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) African American teachers ; medical school 932 Voter Registration Were there any efforts to organize voter registration or any other efforts that maybe worked to change that status quo? Montgomery states that efforts to help the Black community register to vote began well before the Civil Rights era, with figures such as Emory Jackson working on the issue since Montgomery was young. Benson, Morris ; Jackson, Emory ; Montgomery, B.M. ; Voter registration Voter registration--United States 1054 Finishing Medical School &amp ; Return to Birmingham How was your transition from Birmingham to D.C.? Montgomery details his experience of completing the medical program studying cardiology at Howard University. He describes the ethnic makeup of the students in his classes over the years, which included Jewish and White men, to disprove the notion that Black institutions were also segregated at the time. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Brown, Kelly ; Cardiology ; Holy Family Hospital ; Montgomery, Althea Palmer Birmingham (Ala.) ; Holy Family Community Hospital (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Howard University. College of Medicine 1456 Relationships with Doctors and Patients How did you relate to white physicians at the time? Montgomery states that there were only a few Black doctors in Birmingham, and he explains that it was common for Black patients to be treated in white hospitals, but were put in segregated wards. African American physicians ; Holy Family Hospital 1686 Teaching at the University of Alabama School of Medicine About 1960 or '61, we talked about it a lot in the Black Medical Society. Montgomery states that he was part of The Black Medical Society, which was affiliated with the National Medical Association. He was also the first Black physician to become staff at the University as Assistant Professor of Medicine. American Board of Internal Medicine ; American College of Physicians ; Fromeyer, Walter ; Jefferson County Medical Society (Ala.) ; Medical College of Alabama ; Stewart, Robert ; The Black Medical Society African American physicians ; Medical education--Societies, etc. ; National Medical Association (U.S.) 2195 Experiences at Other Birmingham Hospitals So how long did it take before you were accepted at other hospitals? Montgomery details how the University Hospital was more progressive at the time by allowing Black physicians to practice at the hospital, which he attributes to Dr. Walter Fromeyer, Dr. Joseph Volker, and Dr. S. Richardson Hill. Baptist Medical Centers of Birmingham ; Fromeyer, Walter ; Hill, S. Richardson (Samuel Richardson), 1923-2003 ; UAB Hospital (Birmingham, Ala.) ; University Hospital (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Volker, Joseph F. African Americans in medicine ; Hill, S. Richardson (Samuel Richardson), 1923-2003 ; UAB Hospital (Birmingham, Ala.) 2454 Supporting the Movement Politically, Financially, and Medically Tell me, this period, as you said it was a very, very interesting period, and I know that you had some relationship with the other things that are happening in Birmingham with the changing of the guard, for lack of a better term. Montgomery states that his support of the Movement came in financial backing, and was Fred Shuttlesworth's family physician. He became interested in voter registration issues, and worked to promote the Voter Education Project. In 1966, he ran for the legislature for the Democratic party, but was ultimately not nominated. Lee, Henry ; Voter Education Project, Inc. (Atlanta, Ga.) African Americans--Politics and government--20th century 2766 Influential Campaigns for the Movement I just want to mention a few events and a few individuals and if you would just, off the top of your head, give me what comes to mind. Montgomery describes how the Freedom Riders, the Selective Buying Campaign, and the demonstrations in 1963 contributed to the overall success of the Movement. Freedom Riders ; Selective Buying Campaign Achievements of the civil rights revolution ; Boycotts--Alabama 2925 Public Opinion Towards Demonstrations Is that why you think they were not in favor of the demonstrations? Montgomery speculates that some people opposed demonstrations because they benefitted from the existing social structure, and that there was a resentment towards &quot ; outsiders&quot ; who were coming into the area to facilitate social change. He also describes how Fred Shuttlesworth and David Vann helped the success of the Movement. Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Vann, David Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Public opinion 3205 The Children's March &amp ; Bull Connor Can you comment on the use of children in the march? Montgomery describes how the inclusion of children in the marches helped bring new life into the Movement since many active demonstrators had already been arrested. He then briefly characterizes Bull Connor. Carver High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Children's Crusade African American children ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 3337 16th Street Baptist Church The bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church? Montgomery recalls the devastation the bombing caused in the community, but that it drew attention on a national scale of the issues in Birmingham, increasing inter-racial dialogue on the issues of race. Johnson, Lyndon B. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 3524 Bomb Threat You and your wife were both known to be supportive and to be active. Did you ever receive any threats? Montgomery recalls how he received one bomb threat ; he also remarks that that the majority of people who helped with the Movement were Baptist ministers, such as Reverend Samuel M. Davis. African Methodist Episcopal Church ; Davis, Samuel M. ; Death threats Bomb threats 3606 Medical Practice in Birmingham during the Movement How did your involvement in the Movement impact upon your practice? Montgomery treated various Civil Rights leaders including Fred Shuttlesworth and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. He became a founding member of the Community Affairs Committee, which served to improve the relations with the police as well as campaign for integration in hospitals. Community Affairs Committee ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Pitts, Lucious ; Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Developing practice ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Physicians (General practice) ; Segregation in hospitals ; Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 4023 Paving the Way for Black Students at UAB And I asked him, I said, &quot ; Dick, I want to know how many Blacks are going to be in this class? Montgomery describes how he advocated on behalf of African American students for UAB for enrollment in the medical program. Frommeyer, Walter B. ; Hill, S. Richardson (Samuel Richardson), 1923-2003 ; University of Alabama at Birmingham ; Volker, Joseph F. African American medical students ; University of Alabama at Birmingham. University of Alabama School of Medicine 4194 Local Activism and Involvement Did you actually practice until 1984? Montgomery details his role in opening opportunities for Black physicians to work in hospitals and his part in getting an equal number of Black and white members on the panel about Bonita Carter's death. Arrington, Richard ; Birmingham (Ala.). Mayor ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Carter, Bonita ; Vann, David African American physicians ; Arrington, Richard ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Societal transformations ; Vann, David 4469 Conclusion of Interview Dr. Montgomery, I want to thank you for taking this time. Conclusion of the interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Oral History Dr. James T. Montgomery discusses supporting the Movement politically, financially and medically. He served as Rev. Shuttlesworth's family physician and treated Dr. King. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Dr. James T. Montgomery for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. Today is September 22, 1995. Thank you Dr. Montgomery for taking time out of your schedule and allowing us to come into your home to talk with you today. MONTGOMERY: I&#039 ; m only too happy to see you. HUNTLEY: Thank you. I just want to start by asking some general kinds of questions on your background. Tell me a bit about your parents. Your mother and father, were they from Birmingham? MONTGOMERY: My mother, I&#039 ; m sure was born in Beatrice, Alabama. I think my father was born in Belleville. Someone asked me the other day about this I couldn&#039 ; t think of Belleville. But to the best of my understanding. But they both were native Alabamians. HUNTLEY: Where is Belleville and Beatrice? MONTGOMERY: It&#039 ; s somewhere between here, near Greenville, Alabama. It&#039 ; s below Montgomery. And, of course, Atmore is near the coast near Mobile. That&#039 ; s where I was born. HUNTLEY: You were born in Atmore? MONTGOMERY: In Atmore, correct. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have? MONTGOMERY: Well, originally I had three brothers and two sisters. HUNTLEY: Where were you in that group? MONTGOMERY: I was number four. I had two brothers and one sister older than I was. And, then, I had one brother and one sister younger. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your parent&#039 ; s education. MONTGOMERY: Now, my mother went to the 8th or 9th grade I believe. She really came up to Miles, here in Birmingham where they had a high school program. I guess this must have been in the early teens of the 1900s. And she had taught in elementary schools somewhere near Beatrice and Belleville areas. My father, to the best of my knowledge, finished the 3rd or 4th grade. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your father do? MONTGOMERY: As a youngster my father was a very good farmer. He had farmed down at Atmore, Alabama. I can remember even today the very large watermelons that he used to grow. Of course, I think they were the largest I&#039 ; ve ever seen in my life. We lived in Atmore until I was the age of 10. When we came to Birmingham, he went into the grocery store business. He had really been in the grocery store business before then in Brewton and Atmore and other places. But, we came to Birmingham in 1936 and he and one of his brothers had a grocery store in Homewood where they worked and lived and did business until their deaths. One died in 1960 and Uncle Charles, who was very important in my life, died in 1966. HUNTLEY: So you lived in the Rosedale area? MONTGOMERY: Yes. I went to Rosedale High School. HUNTLEY: Tell me what was Rosedale High School like? What do you remember about it? MONTGOMERY: Oh, that&#039 ; s a very interesting question. Rosedale High School was a very small school. It really went from grade 1 through grade 12, but it was called Rosedale High School. We didn&#039 ; t have over 400 or perhaps 500 students. There were only 38 students in my graduating class, but we all knew each other. There were not that many kids who lived in Rosedale proper, so the kids really came in on the bus from Oxmoor or Mason City. From Overton and they made up over half of the student body. Because that was the only school that the Jefferson County School System at that time had on the southside. They may have had Wenonah at the time. I remember they had Hooper City on the northside. I remember going there for the ball games and that sort of thing. But it was a small school where everybody knew everybody. HUNTLEY: What about your community? How would you characterize the community of Rosedale? MONTGOMERY: Well, it was the usual poor, basically Black community where nobody had really spent a lot of time getting much education. Nobody went to school much past high school level. Many did not get that far. I believe by the time my oldest sister finished, I believe in 1936 or &#039 ; 37, her class was about the first that began to go to college out of Rosedale. I was told by one my teachers, and I have no proof of this, that my sister, when she began teaching school in the middle section of Alabama was the first person at Rosedale who had started teaching school. And she had done that after finishing junior college at Miles College. But, my uncle happened to be principal of Rosedale High School. I don&#039 ; t know when he started but he was their when he retired in 1966. It was a small school. It was intimate, we all knew each other and we knew the teachers very well. I cannot say it was a very good school in terms of what you learned, because when I arrived at Morehouse as a freshman in 1943, I found out that we had not learned very much. HUNTLEY: What was the transition like from Rosedale to Morehouse? MONTGOMERY: Very difficult, particularly during the first semester. I remember coming back home at Christmas time and a friend of mine, I went to Sunday School at Bethel AME Church. And a friend of mine asked me how I liked college and I told him I didn&#039 ; t like it very much. The reason was when I arrived at Morehouse we had kids who came from Chicago, came down from Philadelphia and New York. They were so far ahead of us. I was supposed to have been a good student at Rosedale. I had A&#039 ; s that were stretched from Loveman&#039 ; s below downtown all the way back to Rosedale. But I didn&#039 ; t have much knowledge. I can remember not knowing the difference between who and whom. I thought you went by sound. I don&#039 ; t use it correctly all the time even now, but I know the difference. But, I didn&#039 ; t know the difference before going to Morehouse. So it was a big leap. But the big leap probably was the first semester. HUNTLEY: How did you overcome that? MONTGOMERY: Working hard. I always knew what I was in college for and that&#039 ; s the thing that as I look at the young generation I worry about. I always knew that if I didn&#039 ; t want to do a good job for myself, I thought I at least owed it to my parents and particularly to my mother who was dead. She was so interested in education she had just almost burst out. She wanted us to learn something. To go to school and to have opportunities. And I thought even for James T, I should have done it for my parents. It made the first semester rather difficult. I went to Morehouse on a scholarship. Now it wasn&#039 ; t a lot of money, but the first semester tuition at Morehouse at that time was $40. That&#039 ; s not your room and board, that&#039 ; s your tuition. And I had a scholarship that covered the first semester. That&#039 ; s the only semester at Morehouse when I did not make a B average. And it wasn&#039 ; t renewed the next semester because of that. Later I got other scholarships at Morehouse, but that&#039 ; s the adjustment I was talking about. It was not easy. It was difficult. But, by the second semester and, then, the second year, what the kids from Chicago, Philadelphia and New York had above where we were, the playing field had begin to level. HUNTLEY: Were there others from Rosedale that attended Morehouse? MONTGOMERY: Not at that time. I think I was the first person from Rosedale High School to graduate from Rosedale and went to Morehouse. Subsequently, there was a judge, I think in Selma, James Ferris who was at Rosedale and went to Morehouse after I did. There was a doctor who was the head of cardiovascular or neurosurgery, I&#039 ; m not quite sure now, at Meharry who unfortunately passed several years ago, named Todd, who also followed me to Morehouse 3-4 years late. HUNTLEY: At what point did you decide that you were going to medical school? MONTGOMERY: Well, I don&#039 ; t know whether I decided to go to medical school or circumstances decided for me to go to medical school. I always wanted to study law. As I said to you before we started the interview, I had an uncle who discouraged me from doing that. He felt the future was not very bright for Black lawyers in 1943. What actually happened was, I was deciding between getting drafted into the army or going to school. And I decided to take pre-med and to go to medical school hoping that this would enable me not to have to go into the army. That&#039 ; s exactly what happened and once I got into the area I began to enjoy science. Although, as I said to you before the interview started, in my early life, social studies, politics always interested me more than medicine. HUNTLEY: So after you finished Morehouse what did you do? Did you go right into medical school? MONTGOMERY: No, I did not. It takes money to go to medical school, even in 1947. I finished Morehouse after having been the area and I came home. I worked at Parker High School where I taught biology and chemistry from 1947 to 1949. This was one of the most rewarding periods in my life. I learned more from the kids whom I taught than they probably learned from me. It gave me a chance to learn more about people and about their lives. Because although none of us had anything in the old days, my life in some ways had been more blessed than their lives. HUNTLEY: When you came back after Morehouse did you live in Rosedale? MONTGOMERY: I lived in Rosedale until I got married in 1950. At that time I began to live with my wife&#039 ; s grandparents and my wife, of course, out in Woodlawn. I lived in Rosedale up until 1950. HUNTLEY: Now, this is a period, in the 1950s Birmingham was a place that was totally segregated. You had gone off to Morehouse, you had come back, now you were teaching. Now you would decide upon what you would do for the rest of your life. Why medicine? MONTGOMERY: Well, the decision for medicine was made at Morehouse. I had done pre-med. I had finished with a B.S. degree with a major in biology and I knew I wanted to go to medical school. I had applied to medical school earlier and really got accepted to medical school three times before I went. It was not because I didn&#039 ; t want to go, it was because it took money to go and I didn&#039 ; t have any. HUNTLEY: Where were you accepted? MONTGOMERY: Meharry once and Howard twice. I was also not accepted at Meharry one year. I will always remember that. I was a senior at Morehouse and there was a good friend of mine named Beck. And Beck&#039 ; s father had taught pulmonary disease in the Department of Internal Medicine at Meharry for maybe 15-20 years. If I may say, I had done very well at Morehouse as a student. And while we were waiting to hear from medical schools, one morning we received a telegram from Meharry which stated, &quot ; Please let us know if your father had finished Meharry.&quot ; I was just fuming because Beck also got the same telegram and I thought that was very unfair for Beck&#039 ; s father, who taught at Meharry to get a letter saying &quot ; Let us know if your father finished.&quot ; I didn&#039 ; t know what my father going to Meharry had to do with anything. And I cannot type, but I remember sitting down and typing a letter with my pecking two fingers, on somebody&#039 ; s typewriter to Meharry, telling them my daddy didn&#039 ; t know there was a school named Meharry. HUNTLEY: Was that when you were not accepted? MONTGOMERY: Right. I was accepted by them the next year. I was accepted by Howard twice during this time I was teaching school at Parker High School. HUNTLEY: Was Beck accepted? MONTGOMERY: Yes. Beck was accepted. HUNTLEY: Did he go? MONTGOMERY: Yes. He went to Meharry. Now, whether he went that year or the next year, I can&#039 ; t remember. But he was accepted. HUNTLEY: So you would eventually go to Howard? MONTGOMERY: Yes. I went to Howard. HUNTLEY: How would you describe Howard when you had arrived? You had gone to the big city of Atlanta? MONTGOMERY: Well, Atlanta and Birmingham we thought was almost the same. Not in size but the same level as metropolitan areas go at that time. But, of course, you probably know by now, that Bull Conner and his bunch made a decision that they didn&#039 ; t want Birmingham to grow too much because they didn&#039 ; t want to lose control of this city. There were people in Atlanta, the editor of the Atlanta Constitution, I think his name was Ralph McGill, and the mayor named Hartfield at the time, I think made a decision to make Atlanta a progressive city. I think that&#039 ; s when the idea of Atlanta, the city too busy to hate, during the 1940s was started. They began to work and make Atlanta a much better city and they succeeded, of course. HUNTLEY: Tell me about Birmingham prior to you going to Howard. You were now here, you had taught for a couple of years and Birmingham was a rather rough place as far as race was concerned. MONTGOMERY: Everything, as you probably already know, was totally segregated. Now that didn&#039 ; t seem like it was a difficult problem and I&#039 ; ll tell you why. We had never known life any other way. It wasn&#039 ; t that we didn&#039 ; t want it, but we weren&#039 ; t like Ronald Reagan, who said, &quot ; Before we knew we had a race problem.&quot ; We always knew we had a race problem. But Birmingham was totally segregated and it was an accepted thing. We accepted riding in the back of bus. We accepted the fact that you may go downtown to buy clothes and in some stores they didn&#039 ; t want you to try the clothes on. We accepted second class citizenship then because we didn&#039 ; t know what to do about it. We wanted to do something but I don&#039 ; t think anyone knew what to do about it and stay alive. HUNTLEY: Were there any efforts to organize voter registration or any other efforts that may be worked to change that status quo? MONTGOMERY: Yes. Voter registration is not a new thing, and I will talk to you about that after I got back home later on. But, it was not a new thing. I can remember my uncle, whose name was B. M. Montgomery, who had worked to get Black people registered to vote in Homewood, as long as I can remember. Even when I was quite young. Now, another fellow who died recently, named Morris Benson, who was also very helpful in trying to get Blacks to register to vote. There weren&#039 ; t many of us. There were so few of us that I can remember when I was teaching school and the candidate who was running for office came up from Rosedale down to Homewood to see me personally and ask me for my vote. There were very few voters in my community at that time. But, there were efforts on the part of people to get registered to vote. People may think that the whole effort started in 1963 or &#039 ; 59. It did not start then. It started way back there. But there were so many restrictions that it&#039 ; s very difficult to break down the walls that they had put up and people really were afraid to do anything because your life wasn&#039 ; t worth anything and fear had a lot to do with it. But there were efforts made to get people to vote and I can remember Emory Jackson worked on this sort of thing in Birmingham as long as I can remember and other people had worked on voter registration. There was a fellow down at Parker High School named Henry Williams who used to take the teachers down there to register them one at a time and he was surprised to hear of the number of teachers who were not even registered to vote. At that time we didn&#039 ; t have the trouble they had in Selma where someone bothered you about registering to vote, it was just that apathy. There was that feeling by many people that &quot ; They don&#039 ; t count your votes anyway.&quot ; And people bought that sort of thing. You see, the White man sold us a bag of goods and we bought it lock, stock and barrel, without a doubt. HUNTLEY: How was your transition then from Birmingham to D.C.? MONTGOMERY: It was not very difficult. After going to Morehouse I had learned how to study and I had learned how to approach subject matter because Morehouse had done a very good job for me and I&#039 ; ll always be grateful for that. Out of all the institutions I have been, I&#039 ; m more grateful to Morehouse than the other institutions really because they took me from Rosedale, where I didn&#039 ; t know the difference between &quot ; who and whom&quot ; and did teach me the difference between the two. But going to medical school was not a difficult thing, not at all. The only thing that happened that was difficult my freshman year was that I got ill and I had an infection in one of my kidneys and I was very ill during that freshman year. I had to decided between dropping out of medical school or staying in. I did not have anything in mind to go back to, so I had to fight it out. At the end of my freshman year I had a kidney removed. The infected kidney was removed at the end of my first year which was in 1950. Academically it was not a difficult thing. I really was inspired. I remember standing up on the steps at Howard University in September 1949, and I remember there were three or four Jewish boys in the class, very fine fellows. One of them, by the name of Copeland was standing behind me and we were taking the class picture and he said to me, &quot ; James, may I call you James?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Sure.&quot ; He said, &quot ; I want to tell you something.&quot ; He looked around and saw mostly Black people there, in my mind at least. And he said, &quot ; I might not be leading this class when this thing is over, but the person who is leading will know I&#039 ; m breathing down his neck.&quot ; I decided that afternoon that the only place he was going to finish was somewhere behind me. And, of course, he finished a long way behind me. But those kind of things inspired me to do the best that I could. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s an interesting comment because you are suggesting that there were Jews in your class at Howard and even today, people are talking about Black institutions being segregated. MONTGOMERY: They have never been segregated. There were White people, one of the White fellows that came down to Morehouse when I was there, between &#039 ; 43 and &#039 ; 47. And although they were doing studies or there to learn or writing books, they were there and they were enrolled as students at that time. There were always some contact between the kids and Georgia Tech and other White schools in Georgia and Morehouse and Spelman. But the meetings always took place at Morehouse or Spelman, of course. You didn&#039 ; t meet at the White institutions. But there were contacts at that time. HUNTLEY: Did you ever consider not returning to Birmingham when you finished medical school? MONTGOMERY: Not really. I had people in Kansas City, Missouri trying to encourage me to come to Kansas City. I had some other people in Gary, Indiana who tried to encourage me to come there by the time I was finished with my residency at Homer G. Phillips in St. Louis. But, I had really always thought of coming back home to be honest with you. It was made much easier for me than for most other fellows who were in training along with me and let me tell you what the reason is for that. I had married a very wonderful young lady, my wife Althea Palmer Montgomery at the end of my freshman year. If I had to tell people away from Birmingham, fellows at least, when they&#039 ; re in profession, what I think about young professionals, particularly fellows, away training, is that they often marry some young lady that wants to live somewhere else. And I suggest to anybody who don&#039 ; t know, you ought to marry, live where your wife want to live. HUNTLEY: To solidify the relationship? MONTGOMERY: Well, it just makes for more peace and harmony. Since you asked me that question, I can tell you about an incident which occurred to me while attending the American College of Physician meeting in Boston. one of my former professors, named Dr. Kelly Brown, one of the best diagnosticians I&#039 ; ve ever known, saw me in Boston and he said to me, &quot ; Montgomery, you getting through with your training now&quot ; . I was doing some work in cardiology at the Beth Israel Hospital in Boston at that time. HUNTLEY: What year was this? MONTGOMERY: This was in 1957. I met him at this meeting and he said, &quot ; Montgomery, where are you going to practice?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going back to Birmingham.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Now, I thought you had some sense.&quot ; I still remember that. But I always planned to come back home, really. HUNTLEY: That reminds me. As I was finishing graduate school, people were asking me, &quot ; Why Birmingham? Why would you go back to Birmingham?&quot ; So I can understand that. You returned to Birmingham in 1957. Alabama had outlawed the NAACP from operating in the state in 1956. MONTGOMERY: That&#039 ; s correct. HUNTLEY: The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights had been organized to fill that void in 1956. I believe it was in December of &#039 ; 56 that Fred Shuttlesworth&#039 ; s home was bombed and the Alabama Christian Movement was looked upon as rabble rousers at the time. You are coming back into this atmosphere. There&#039 ; s only one place really that you can actually practice, right? MONTGOMERY: That&#039 ; s correct. I&#039 ; ve always been very grateful for the bridge that helped me across and that&#039 ; s what Holy Family Hospital did. Had there been no Holy Family Hospital, no matter what I wanted to do, I could not have come back to Birmingham. You cannot go off and spend eight years of your life in medical school and residency, go off to Harvard and spend the better part of a year in cardiology and decide I&#039 ; m going back and now I&#039 ; m going to practice in a hospital. You have to have a hospital to take care of sick patients. And Community, Holy Family later became Community, but Holy Family gave me that opportunity and I&#039 ; m very grateful for that. HUNTLEY: How did you relate to White physicians at the time? MONTGOMERY: When I came back to Birmingham the only White physician I knew was one who had treated me once or twice, Dr. Essie F. Harris, Sr., had been my family physician, but for some reason this fellow had treated me once or twice and he was the only one I knew, a Dr. Bill Robinson. I did not know any other White physicians at the time. Now, I began to meet them because there were White physicians who practiced at Holy Family Hospital. They all were in general practice and they were admitting patients, mostly miners, UMW patients to the hospital. HUNTLEY: Were all of these Black patients? MONTGOMERY: All of them were Black patients. But the White doctors always took care of 90% of the Black patients first. At that time there was no choice, because there were very few Black doctors here. HUNTLEY: How many Black doctors were here when you returned? MONTGOMERY: Nine or ten. We stayed at the number for ten years. HUNTLEY: So if you had a patient with a particular problem, a specialized problem, did you send those patients to other doctors. MONTGOMERY: As I was saying, you asked me about my relationship with other doctors. There were White doctors who always would come out to Community Hospital in consultation for a neurosurgical problem or not to much for medical problems because, thanks to the Lord I can take care of most of those myself as a certified internist. But there were neurological problems and what I knew of those who came out there, also the radiologist there, were White physician. The neurologist, Dr. A. C. Young, I mention his name because he was one of the people who recommended me. I really needed five people to get into the medical society. And others like Dr. H. Russelcoft who died recently, very fine men. My contact with a White physician in this direction. There was a Dr. Stanley Kahn who was out there every Wednesday seeing UMW patients as a consultant. And, then I began to learn more and more through their coming out to the hospital to do consultation work in some of the specialty fields. HUNTLEY: Although Black doctors could not practice at the white hospitals, Black patients were admitted to the white hospitals. MONTGOMERY: Oh, yes. They always admitted Black patients in the usual segregated, undesirable quarters. HUNTLEY: Were there efforts on the part of Black doctors to eventually become part of the staffs of other hospitals? MONTGOMERY: I don&#039 ; t think any effort much was made. In all honestly, Dr. R. C. Stewart had some kind of prejudices to delivering babies at Carraway Methodist Hospital. To the best of my knowledge he was not on the staff as a staff doctor. Dr. Bullware had worked with him over at Sloss field clinic where they delivered a lot of Black doctor&#039 ; s patients. That was long before my time. And he had gotten some right to come in and deliver some of his complicated patients over at Carraway. But nobody, to my knowledge, that tried to become a member of an active staff, or even an associate staff member, prior to 1963. About 1960 or &#039 ; 61 we talked about it a lot in the Black medical society. HUNTLEY: Was that the Black medical society? MONTGOMERY: That was the Black medical society. It was affiliated with the national medical association. But the (Inaudible) district had been here for years. Dr. Bryant and that group had started it a long time before I came. I guess when I was a young fellow. Anyway, we talked in the (Inaudible) district about trying to--integration was in the air at the time, it was in the early sixties. And we talked about all of us deciding to go and apply all together to the medical society. And we talked about it at CME for about two years and nothing happened. HUNTLEY: What do you mean nothing happened? MONTGOMERY: Nobody really applied. HUNTLEY: Why did no one applied? MONTGOMERY: I can&#039 ; t answer that because I don&#039 ; t know. I can only tell you what happened when I applied. HUNTLEY: Let me just ask you this before you tell me when you applied. When you had the discussions of everyone applying, was there ever a part of the conversation that said we&#039 ; re going to apply on this particular date or was it sort of left in the air for one to decide? MONTGOMERY: I think it was mostly discussed like a lot of things and nobody really came to any conclusion about what day we were going to do this. I know it was mostly in the discussion phase. Because what actually happened, early or late &#039 ; 61 or &#039 ; 62 there were these White physicians whom I knew, one of them I remember was a specialist in thoracic surgery. I remember him telling me on the elevator at Community Hospital, I think it was still Holy Family at that time, that &quot ; We want to get you and Robert Stewart in the medical society, but the time ain&#039 ; t right yet.&quot ; And I listened to that for about six more months. HUNTLEY: What did he mean by &quot ; the time not being right?&quot ; MONTGOMERY: Well, like everything about integration, the time has never been right until you either force your way in or someone like Rosa Parks sit on the bus and go to jail. It has always been the time is not right, wait a while longer. Go back to church and sing some more, pray some more and wait. HUNTLEY: What was your reaction when he said the time was not right? MONTGOMERY: Well, I told you I waited another five or six months. And at that time I decided it was time to apply to the Jefferson County Medical Society and that&#039 ; s what I did. HUNTLEY: Was it necessary to have sponsors at that time? MONTGOMERY: Yes. It is my understanding that prior to 1960s, and I cannot prove this, that they used to have to have two people to recommend you for membership. But when I applied, you needed five members to recommend you. Now, when this started I cannot guarantee it one way or the other. I do know I was just told this. You have to have five people who are members of the society to recommend you for membership. And I was very lucky to get four. I must have written 25 letters to people that I had learned, who had came out to Community Hospital to work, who knew of my qualifications and knew whether or not I was a qualified physician or not. And most of the people backed off. They explained to me how they got burned when they spoke out for integration or something in Boston or &quot ; Please don&#039 ; t ask me to do this.&quot ; Now, I understood what their problem was. I never told them that. I said, &quot ; Well, if you can live with yourself, you go ahead.&quot ; But I knew what the problem was. They had to live in Mountain Brook and I didn&#039 ; t. But luckily, four physicians out that 25 wrote letters almost immediately, within a month or so. But then, I needed the fifth one and nobody came forth. I called them again and they said, &quot ; Jim, please don&#039 ; t ask me to do this.&quot ; And there was a Dr. Casey who was chief pathologist at the Baptist hospital group at the time. Montclair was at Highland at that time and at West End Baptist, which is now Princeton. And he was in Russia on a sabbatical where he was doing some research or working with them in their programs and did not come back to Birmingham for about six months after I applied. My letter was on his desk when he got back and he called me the same day. He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ll write this letter today.&quot ; And that was the fifth person that I needed. Several months later I was called in by the credential committee for an interview. HUNTLEY: This then opened up the possibilities of you practicing in other &quot ; white&quot ; hospitals? MONTGOMERY: Not really. That&#039 ; s another step. In a way, though, it might have opened it up. I remember I went over to University Hospital to talk to them about coming to the Grand Rounds. The Department of Medicine had Grand Rounds every Thursday morning and I talked to a fellow named, Wally Fromeyer, who later became a very good friend of mine. I asked him, &quot ; I want to come to Grand Rounds.&quot ; And I even agreed to sit in the back, which is something I had never done voluntarily before. And was very nice and courteous, but no. After that time nobody had thought you would get to integrate a white hospital staff. But, a few years later, I got certified by the American Board of Internal Medicine where people eagerly sent letters. These same people who refused to send letters to the medical society, because these letters were being sent to Philadelphia. And after I had passed the American Board of Internal Medicine, I wanted to become a Fellow in the American College of Physicians. That&#039 ; s the next level of accomplishment in your specialty field. And, as a result of that, before I could call these people for recommendations for the American college of Physicians, they called me. &quot ; Jim, could I recommend you for the American College of Physicians&quot ; . There were people who were just unable to in their own minds to recommend me for the local medical society one or two years earlier. But, after I had been recommended to the American College of Physicians, I became associate member in 1964. Anyway, I went over and they were going to have a regional meeting of the American College of Physicians in New Orleans, Louisiana. I received a letter concerning this. I called the hotel in New Orleans and informed them I was a Black physician and informed them that I was going to the regional meeting and wanted to know if that was going to be any problem for me? And they told me, &quot ; We&#039 ; ll be happy to have you come to the meeting, but we will ask you to take your meals in your room.&quot ; So I would never go and take meals in my room, not in 1964, I would have taken a room in &#039 ; 57 if they had asked me. Anyway, I went to talk to Wally Fromeyer, who was chief of medicine at University of Alabama School of Medicine at the time. One Saturday afternoon after I had finished with my patients in the office, while sitting there, I wanted to see what he felt about this. I told him what they asked me to do and I wanted to see exactly where he was coming from. He said to me, &quot ; Jim, I don&#039 ; t think I would go under those circumstances. Why don&#039 ; t you wait until next year when they have the meeting in Atlantic City and you won&#039 ; t have that problem there&quot ; . So, while I was sitting there talking to Wally Fromeyer, I said, &quot ; Wally, when am I going to start practicing medicine in this hospital?&quot ; And, to my surprise, he said, &quot ; Jim, when are you going to apply?&quot ; And, from that time, there were no obstacle. I applied and within a month or two when they went through the credential committee, I was admitted to the staff and received an appointment as an Assistant Professor of Medicine. HUNTLEY: This is in 1964? MONTGOMERY: In &#039 ; 64. HUNTLEY: And you&#039 ; re the first Black physician to make application and that application being accepted at that point? MONTGOMERY: To my knowledge, that is correct. I&#039 ; m not to sure if anybody applied before. As I said before, we accepted a secondary status. When I went to talk to Wally Fromeyer that afternoon, I wasn&#039 ; t talking about me. My thinking wasn&#039 ; t to the point that they&#039 ; re ready to let me come in here. I was thinking about my sons who wanted to practice medicine, your sons and anybody else&#039 ; s son who might want to come one day and practice medicine at that institution. Somebody had to begin to knock on the door and to my surprise, my knocking opened the door. HUNTLEY: So how long did it take before you were accepted at other hospitals? MONTGOMERY: Well, let me tell you about that. University Hospital was the only one I think was really willing to take a Black physician on who they could not find a way to find him not well qualified, by training, by board certifications, or by becoming a Fellow in the American College of Physicians. The other hospitals were standing back and waiting. I know the Baptist group in particular and Baptist West End Hospital at the time is now Princeton, they had said that they would not take any Medicare patients. They were saying &quot ; No, we&#039 ; re not going to do that.&quot ; Because Medicare had said, you had to integrate your staff, your doctor staff, integrate your patients. And first they weren&#039 ; t going to take any money. But they found out that the White patients had the same color Medicare cards as the Black patients. And they always understand the bottom line. They have no problem with that. And, they called and asked me to join their staff. HUNTLEY: Baptist did? MONTGOMERY: Yes. Princeton did, which I did. I had patients there for maybe a ten year period. And, after I got on Princeton&#039 ; s Hospital staff, you automatically get an appointment to the courtesy staff at Montclair, the other hospital which opened about that time of the next year. HUNTLEY: What about your experience at East End? MONTGOMERY: Well, now the East End thing was very interesting. I never did apply for staff privileges there. But there was a doctor, I think his name was Dr. Trucks. I&#039 ; m not a hundred percent sure about the name. He called me about &#039 ; 64 or &#039 ; 65 and wanted me to come out and apply for that staff. Now, East End was out on 66th or 67th Street, I believe. It was totally impossible for me to go all the way to Ensley, where most of my patients were, back to University and then all the way out to East End. I would never get to the office. And I told him I couldn&#039 ; t do that. But I did ask him at the time, I said, &quot ; Tell me something. What is the situation there? How many Black patients do you all have?&quot ; And he said to me, &quot ; Jim, we don&#039 ; t have any.&quot ; I said, &quot ; You don&#039 ; t have any?&quot ; I said, &quot ; How did that come about?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, we made a gentlemen&#039 ; s agreement, we just wouldn&#039 ; t admit any Black patients.&quot ; I laughed. I said, &quot ; Well, you might have made an agreement, but no gentlemen would make such an agreement.&quot ; But I did get Dr. Joseph Samuels to go out and apply to the staff, because I thought to get all the many hospital staffs integrated with at least one or more Black doctors was very important. And, to the best of my knowledge, he did go out and was admitted. But Medicare did more, and the federal government about integrating hospitals than any individual. The only hospital that did not wait for Medicare to say that you had to do it, to be honest with you was University. HUNTLEY: So, University was the ahead of everyone else? MONTGOMERY: They had very good people at that time, at the top of the University Hospital staff. Dr. Joseph Volker, who was head of University, Wally Fromeyer, who I said later became a very good friend of mine, was chief of medicine, Dick Hill, was the dean at the time, I believe. I can&#039 ; t remember the Administrator at that time, but they were forward looking. They saw the future coming. HUNTLEY: Was this because most of them were from out town? MONTGOMERY: That might be part of it. I do know that, I don&#039 ; t know where Fromeyer came here from, but he went to school in Cincinnati, I believe. And, Dr. Volker, of course, had come down here from Boston. I don&#039 ; t know where Hill was from, but Hill had gone to school at Harvard. Now, whether he was a native Alabamian, I really don&#039 ; t know. But that thing works two ways. The person who comes down, either he brings his ideas with him, if he gets to work on them immediately, it helps. Usually, what he does, is get into the confines of their thinking and he is sometimes worse than the people who have been here all the time. That was my experience, at least. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s very interesting. So you are saying that, in many cases, it didn&#039 ; t matter whether you had a Northerner to come in, because the Northerner actually accepted the mores? MONTGOMERY: He assimilated very well into the conservative culture. I have another word for it. But, the conservative culture, he assimilated into. HUNTLEY: You wouldn&#039 ; t want to share that other word, would you? MONTGOMERY: Not really. HUNTLEY: Tell me, this period, as you said it was a very, very interesting period, and I know that you had some relationship with the other things that are happening in Birmingham with the changing of the guard, for lack of a better term. Can you tell me about your relationship to the Movement itself? MONTGOMERY: Well, I was not a going to church every Monday night member of the Movement. I supported the Movement financially, I supported the Movement in every other way that I could. Fred Shuttlesworth and I had been at Rosedale High School as students together. He was three or four years ahead of me, of course. But, we had known each other for quite some time. I became Fred Shuttlesworth&#039 ; s physician and his family physician in 1957. I was always interested in things political. I think I told you earlier that as a youngster I was more interested in the social and political structure thing, than I was in medicine or science. That might have remained all of my life. (Inaudible) now, between a good political discussion or a football game, as much as I like football, I&#039 ; ll probably watch the political discussion, or tape it, one way or the other. But, I got interested because I always thought that things could be better. And, I always thought that I was in a unique position, as a Black physician, who only depended on Black people, to do what I could to help make life better in the community, not just the hospital and the medical schools. Now, in 1964 I believe, I got interested in voter registration and there had been plenty of people working on voter registration for years. But, to the best of my knowledge, only about 9,000 Black people registered to vote at the time. And we started, well, what actually happened is that some money was coming over from Atlanta to help with voter registration in Birmingham. I don&#039 ; t remember the organization name, right now. HUNTLEY: Voter Education Project? MONTGOMERY: VEP, correct. They were going to send some money over here, but they did not want to send the money with the present makeup of the organization, to be honest with you. So Arthur Shores and Lucious Pitts, and one or two other people encouraged me to go to the meeting and try to get elected treasurer of the body, which I did. They elected me treasurer of the local project, and I began to raise money locally and we got the money from the Voter Education Project into Birmingham, because they wanted to be sure the money was going to be used for voter registration. Our reputation was fairly decent and they would know that if it was sent for that, I would do my best to see that it was used for that. We went to work with the help of a lot of other people. And, between 1964 and 1966, I think the number of registered voters in the Black community grew to about 64-66,000. And, that&#039 ; s why I ran for the legislature in 1966. I had no idea I could win. But, I thought that once we got 66,000 people registered to vote, they had to have somebody to vote for. That is why I decided to run. I never knew I was going to Montgomery. Although the sign said, &quot ; Send Montgomery to Montgomery.&quot ; But, I never thought I was going. I still think that people needed a reason to go to the polls, and they did in large numbers, back in 1964. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the run for Montgomery. MONTGOMERY: Well, that was an interesting experience, but was it exhausting. You had to go out to every community, to every church meeting and make a speech. And since most of them were raising money to help you run for election, they wanted you to put money into the pot at the time. It was a very interesting experience. I enjoyed it, because I&#039 ; ve always enjoyed things political. But, it was difficult to practice medicine and run for office. What happened, actually, I made the runoff. I had about 43,000 votes, I believe, in the county wide. And the fellow who won the seat, a fellow named Henry Lee in the runoff, he died. After he died, one morning about 5:00 or 5:30, a good friend of mine, named Miss Washington called me and said, &quot ; You know Henry Lee died this morning?&quot ; So she thought, in 1995 I&#039 ; m sure I would have been named for that position as I was the next higher runner up. Instead, they had another election (Inaudible) $78,000 to keep from naming me to that number 10 spot I was on of the legislature agenda, and people naming me as the nominee of the democratic party. They spent another $78-80,000 and had an election which I did not run it, because I was about full of that. I had about all that I could handle. I did not run in the election after he died. HUNTLEY: I want to just mention a few events and a few individuals and if you would just, off the top of your head, give me what comes to mind. Freedom Riders, 1961? MONTGOMERY: They made a great contribution to this area, and to the whole effort of integration and civil rights without a doubt. They suffered actually, because many of us are Johnny- come-latelys to the civil rights movement. But the Freedom Riders were not Johnny- come-latelys...the benches and Carolina were not Johnny-come-latelys. Really. They were not. HUNTLEY: Selective Buying Campaign? MONTGOMERY: It was very helpful in Birmingham. If things were not very helpful, go and interview Richard Pizitz, he will tell you. At least he told me really how they got the message very quickly that if people would not spend money with you, you will stop and look and see what you have been doing. I remember that campaign locally very well, because my wife was deeply involved in it. She had worked with the kids out at Miles College. She and Mrs. Pendleton and Mrs. John Drew and some others. But she had worked with that and I know they would go and haul the kids downtown to carry the signs and to help with that. I remember having to buy my son, who was two years old I believe at the time, my youngest son, a suit to be in Attorney Shores oldest daughter&#039 ; s wedding. I remember I had to buy it in Chicago when I was up their studying taking post graduate courses. It was very effective. You stop the money. Adam Clayton Powell used to say something that I still remember very well. He says that &quot ; We always thought that the White man was at his worst when the White woman was involved.&quot ; But Adam said that &quot ; if he has to decide between his wife, his daughter and his dollar.: He said, &quot ; Susie, you know now you grown.&quot ; And I think there&#039 ; s a lot of truth in that because they never forget the bottom line actually. HUNTLEY: Demonstrations of &#039 ; 63? MONTGOMERY: They made all the difference in the world, really. And that was not an easy thing to get going in Birmingham whether you know it or not. There were people who was against this. My good friend, (inaudible) Jackson, was against it. He was talking about the failure that Martin Luther King had made in Georgia. Other powerful people were not pushing it that much although they worked, maybe some of these lawyers to get them out of jail and did their legal thing. But they were not pushing it very much, because they thought they were outsiders. HUNTLEY: Is that why you think they were not in favor of the demonstrations? MONTGOMERY: They were not in favor in my mind for two reasons. Number 1, two or three people were the people that the White power structure called all the time. And I think that position they had put them in, that everything that come (inaudible) come through us made them kind of want to push the other people away. And I think that was the reason because the whole thing at that time was these outsiders go home. Martin Luther King go home. Abernathy go home. Walker go home. And we met one day shortly after they came to Birmingham. My wife and I were invited down to A. G. Gaston building on the second floor and we had a meeting. The room was just full. And there was a big debate about whether or not we would support this movement that Martin Luther King was bringing in here or not. And there were people saying, &quot ; No, we making progress.&quot ; Preachers and non-preachers and other people. &quot ; We don&#039 ; t need them here to do this.&quot ; And, if you pardon me for saying it, I remember standing up saying, &quot ; What the hell y&#039 ; all talking about?&quot ; I didn&#039 ; t believe what I was hearing. I said, &quot ; We aren&#039 ; t doing anything. We don&#039 ; t have enough people to vote, every counter downtown is segregated, every hotel is segregated, everything is segregated. What are y&#039 ; all talking about. HUNTLEY: Were there others at the meeting that supported your view point? MONTGOMERY: Yes, there were a few. But more, many more people began to support it as we went along actually, really. Because after we had that meeting I remember it was the next day that I was asked to join the Executive Committee. They didn&#039 ; t call it the Executive Committee, but it was the committee that was making decisions about the demonstrations and that sort of thing, I remember. HUNTLEY: Was this the Alabama Christian Movement? MONTGOMERY: No. The Alabama Christian Movement had started the whole movement. It was a combination of SCLC and the Alabama Christian Movement. Now, there would not have been any demonstrations or success in Birmingham without the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. Fred Shuttlesworth, in my mind, has done more for civil rights in this town than anybody, any single individual probably has ever done in any town. He put his head on the block. He got stabbed. He got cut. I remember going to see him after he went to Phillips High School to take his kids down there. He had been to the hospital at University, but he called me and wanted me to come out and check him and his wife, medically, and I did. And I&#039 ; ll never forget this because I checked Fred and Fred&#039 ; s head was as hard as steel. Fred was an amazing man. And let me tell you why I say that. Fred would go out and demonstrate, go down and get beaten and cut and you checked Fred&#039 ; s heart rate, it was 60. His pulse rate was just perfectly normal. And he was just built for this thing. Most other people would have been shaken and their heart rate would have been running away, but not Fred. HUNTLEY: Is that right? MONTGOMERY: His wife said something to me very cute that day about when we were integrating the schools, she said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m mad.&quot ; I said, &quot ; What are you mad about Mrs. Shuttlesworth?&quot ; She said, &quot ; When I go to meeting Monday, I can&#039 ; t show where they stuck me.&quot ; She got stuck in the buttocks with the knife. But I remember that. But he was really meant for this sort of thing. And, Birmingham, not just Blacks but all people in this area owe Fred Shuttlesworth a great deal, without a doubt. HUNTLEY: The power structure for a long time wouldn&#039 ; t deal with Fred. MONTGOMERY: Well, that&#039 ; s why David Vann came into being a very important person in my mind. The power structure didn&#039 ; t want to deal, but the business community again wanted to do something to stop the demonstrations to help Birmingham, because if you help Birmingham, you help their pocket books. That&#039 ; s what it comes down to. Fred Shuttlesworth, Martin King and a group of other people and David Vann, who was the person, the conduit from the White community, were able to really work out a settlement. They got the demonstrations stopped. They got the lunch counter signs down and many other things down actually, the hotels and all. And that&#039 ; s why I give David a lot of credit. I remember seeing David Vann sitting on the floor with tears in his eyes because he really loved Birmingham and he didn&#039 ; t want this city just completely burned or torn up. This was during the time we had the bombings and the hotel/motel got bombed, A. D. King&#039 ; s home got bombed actually. We got threats and that sort of thing. HUNTLEY: Can you comment on the use of the children in the march? MONTGOMERY: Had the children not come into the march, the march would have stopped. The success wouldn&#039 ; t have come because most of all the folks that were willing to go to jail had already gone and when A. D. King came in that meeting that afternoon, in Room 30 at the old A. G. Gaston Motel, he said, &quot ; Well, we think the kids at Carver High School want to join.&quot ; And we had a big discussion about that. But that was the thing that broke the monkey&#039 ; s back. HUNTLEY: How did that discussion go? Were people in favor? MONTGOMERY: Most of the people at that level, who were there were in favor I think of what else could be done. The people who wanted to go to jail were in jail and the segregation bars was still up. Bull Conner was still there saying, no, no, never. He was saying never that George Wallace had taught for years. And, I don&#039 ; t have much opposition to that, but that had the greatest possible impact to really break the walls down because they had kids locked up at Fair Park in large numbers. And, I had many patients who told me even twenty years later that &quot ; I was at Fair Park.&quot ; That really broke the monkey&#039 ; s back, without a doubt. And the next thing that helped break the monkey&#039 ; s back was Bull Conner thought the way to resist this thing was to get into his tank and say, &quot ; No, never. I won&#039 ; t move an inch.&quot ; All he had to do was get out of the streets and let them march. But that thing was so built in him that I got the right to control this thing. HUNTLEY: I was going to ask you to comment on Bull. How would you characterize him? MONTGOMERY: He was a typical White politician who thought segregation would keep him getting elected. He did not want Birmingham to do much growing because if it got very large he could no longer keep control. He did not want anything progressive to take place and he wasn&#039 ; t by himself, he had a lot of followers. A lot of followers, really. HUNTLEY: The bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church? MONTGOMERY: I&#039 ; ll never forget that day. I was out at Holy Family Hospital that Sunday morning. And one young lady in the business office said to me, &quot ; They have bombed 16th Street Baptist Church.&quot ; I was just sick. I was so sick, I bet my family was down at St. John&#039 ; s AME Church at Sunday School probably. And I remember coming home after seeing my patients at the hospital and it was that day that I decided, &quot ; Well, it&#039 ; s time for me to get the hell out of here.&quot ; That was exactly my thinking. And I started talking to a friend of my from Morehouse whose father-in-law had just passed in Toledo, Ohio and thinking about going to Toledo, Ohio to practice medicine, because I thought that was just too much. But, you get your anger up and then you stop and think about the thing that, if we don&#039 ; t stay, who stays, really. And that begin to dissipate. Not some of the fear and worry about the thing did not go away. But that brought probably more national and international help into Birmingham at that time. There had been a lot of help, of course during the time of the demonstrations to get people out of jail. The UAW had sent a lot of money in and the NAACP had done a lot of work to help get people out of jail. But I think that the death of the kids was the thing that really brought the weight of the whole thing down so Lyndon Johnson and that group of people could do something about what was going on. HUNTLEY: Were you ever involved in any inter-racial groups that met prior to &#039 ; 63 for the purpose of discussing the issue of race in Birmingham? MONTGOMERY: I don&#039 ; t know. We discussed it, but I don&#039 ; t remember any organized effort to discuss it. Other than what Fred and the others had done through the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. I told you that we had discussed the problem in the medical society, but I do not remember any big efforts. Although there were groups meeting. The Alabama Christian Movement was meeting and I had been in some other meetings, really, but I don&#039 ; t think we thought we were going very far. I remember when the movement came here, the SCLC and the Alabama Christian Movement started the march. There was a fellow who spoke to us at some banquet we were having at L. R. Hall Auditorium. He was saying, &quot ; We told them just to wait a while, we were going to work this thing out.&quot ; He came from Mobile, some college down there. I don&#039 ; t remember the college right now. It was a catholic college in Mobile. He came up here saying, &quot ; You ought to hold back.&quot ; It&#039 ; s always this &quot ; Wait &#039 ; till next year&quot ; attitude. There was a lot of that. But there were people working hard, mainly through voter registration and through the courts. You know Arthur Shores and his bunch and Thurgood had gotten rid of Democrats holding Blacks out from voting in the primary. They said that was their private thing. And all those efforts evolved and led to the other things that we were able to do later on. HUNTLEY: You and your wife were both known to be supportive and to be active. Did you ever receive any threats? MONTGOMERY: Only one night someone called my home. I lived on Lincoln Street about four or five blocks from here. And they said, &quot ; Tell that nigger doctor we&#039 ; re going to bomb him.&quot ; But that was the only threat we would ever receive. I never told my wife this, but I got notes at the office saying, &quot ; Nigger you better go back to practicing medicine (Inaudible). But I don&#039 ; t know, during the 1960s it was an interesting time to be alive and we knew there was danger. It wasn&#039 ; t that we didn&#039 ; t bother about danger, but everybody was in danger if you were Black unless you wanted to take the position that I think these folks are fine and we ought to stop bothering them. And, that was true of many things. The people who really helped a lot I think were the Baptist ministers. I never thought the ministers in my church, except one or two, I&#039 ; m A.M.E., really made much of a contribution to this thing. Sam Davis was very active. The late Rev. Sam Davis, actually. And, I remember my uncle by marriage, Rev. Lamar he worked with the Movement. But that was not a whole lot of working on the part of the ministers as far as I knew in the A.M.E. church. The Baptists ministers mostly led this thing. HUNTLEY: How did your involvement in the Movement impact upon your practice? MONTGOMERY: I&#039 ; m not sure it had much effect one way or the other. I never forgot one thing although I was interested in integrating hospitals and integrating medical societies and getting kids into medical schools was one of the things I&#039 ; m most proud of, that I was lucky enough to help do. But I never thought that, I never forgot that my main responsibility first was to my patients. So, I (Inaudible) help the patient. I think practicing the best medicine you know how takes the patient load for you. Now, I did find myself involved in taking care of members in the Movement. Fred Shuttlesworth and his family were patients of mine. When Martin Luther King was here in jail, they asked me to come to see him and treat him, which I was happy to do because Martin and I had been at Morehouse together. But, I don&#039 ; t think, in the general practice, was impacted by the Civil Rights Movement. HUNTLEY: Were you personal friends with Martin Luther King? MONTGOMERY: Oh yes. HUNTLEY: Were you in the same class? MONTGOMERY: No. He finished in &#039 ; 48 and I finished in &#039 ; 47. Someone asked me, who came to interview me a few years ago, what I thought about Martin at Morehouse. I never would have thought that Martin would have turned out to be the person he turned out to be. I never would have thought that. There was nothing about Martin that impressed me that here was a man whose life I think would have been touched by the hand of God. I really never thought that. But, I was very happy to be able to go to the jail house, which I went in Bessemer and up here to treat him and support him in every way that I could. But I knew him very well, but you won&#039 ; t see me out waving, &quot ; Ask me about Martin Luther King,&quot ; that&#039 ; s just not my nature, but he was a fine person and did great things that everybody knows. HUNTLEY: Throughout your career, you&#039 ; ve been very active and involved, and, of course, on the threshold of change in the profession, as well as with the Movement. If I would ask you if there may be one or two periods in your life that sort of changed your perspective on life around Birmingham, what would those be? MONTGOMERY: Well, I think the first (Inaudible). When the bombing occurred with the girls in &#039 ; 63, I remember also talking to a friend of my named Dr. Matori, who is Professor of Surgery at Howard, who encouraged me to come back to Howard to teach internal medicine. And, by this time, I was also applying to integrate the hospitals and that sort of thing and I just thought to myself that it seemed to be much better for me to open some doors here than to go back there, that would have been the easier way it seemed to me. And, I remember sitting down doing some work on that the last time they bombed Arthur Shores home, I believe. I just thought what happened in &#039 ; 62 really had a great impact in my life because I wanted to help make things better, not just in medicine, but in the community if I could. And, I think that had a great impact on my life. After that time, the activity was just continuous process. We always had trouble between the police and the Black community. I remember in &#039 ; 69, Lucious Pitts called me. He was president of Miles College. He said, &quot ; The Sheriff is beating up some woman and her son and something.&quot ; And we went out to meet and do something about this. And out of these meetings we had, on a Sunday morning I remember, after I had gone to the hospital to make my rounds, led to the formation to the Community Affairs Committee, which I was one of the founding members of. I served as its General Co-chairman to &#039 ; 78 to 1980. But the work that we did there with police community relations was very important to me. It took me two years eating breakfast every Thursday morning with Mel Bailey and Jimmy Moe to get them to agree that they didn&#039 ; t treat Black and White people the same way. I met and ate those grits down at Britland&#039 ; s every Thursday morning. But they finally admitted that maybe you have a point there. I think things began to improve somewhat in the police department at that time. Jimmy Moe was old and had been a segregationist all his life. I don&#039 ; t think he could do any better than he was doing. I always thought that Mel Bailey was young enough at that time to have done better, but just didn&#039 ; t want to do any better. But it&#039 ; s been a kind of continuous process. I can&#039 ; t think of any particular point other than that. Because I think that the early 60s when we begin to feel that we can make a change, we can get in these doors, I remember the night I went to be interviewed at the Jefferson County Medical Society about becoming a member. The fellow asked me &quot ; Had you planned to sue us if you don&#039 ; t get in.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Sue you, why would I have to do a thing like that?&quot ; But I was going to sue them if they had not taken me. There had been a suit in North Carolina that had not been successful. And, had I not been successful, I was surely going to sue them, because the ball had began to move and you can&#039 ; t stop the ball when it&#039 ; s moving. If you do, you just get run over by it. But Fred Shuttlesworth said something to me back in the early 60s that I never will forget and I mentioned this to my sons perhaps 100s of time. He said, &quot ; Doc, everything we&#039 ; re going to get we have to get in the next 15-20 years. Because the way history goes they&#039 ; re going to start turning this thing back.&quot ; And, he was only off by 10 years. HUNTLEY: Very prophetic. MONTGOMERY: Yes. Very prophetic. I&#039 ; ll never forget that. Because you see what&#039 ; s happening in Congress now, they&#039 ; re busy trying to turn everything back and it didn&#039 ; t start, it just reach a point where they got control in &#039 ; 94, but they been working, trying to turn it back every way they can. And what bothers me mostly about that is that we, as a group of people, I&#039 ; m talking about Black people, now, don&#039 ; t understand enough about this to know that you got to keep pushing that ball. In fact, you know when I first worked to get the kids into medical school, I wrote to Dick Hill who was then dean. HUNTLEY: This is at UAB? MONTGOMERY: At UAB. S. Richardson Hill later became president. And I wanted to know, they had increased their class enrollment from 90 to 100. This was in the 60s or 70s, I can&#039 ; t remember the exact date. And I asked him, I said, &quot ; Dick, I want to know how many Blacks are going to be in this class?&quot ; They only had one Black in the previous class. That was after Sullivan and Dale had already been in school there. But they were then going back. And he said, &quot ; Jim,&quot ; in a very nice letter, &quot ; No, we don&#039 ; t have any Blacks in this class.&quot ; And that&#039 ; s when I asked them, &quot ; We need to sit down now and try to find a way to get qualified Blacks in the University of Alabama Medical School.&quot ; And, we met in Joseph Volker&#039 ; s office. Joe Volker, Wally Fromeyer, Dick Hill and some other people. Then we formed a committee that would spend all of its time looking for qualified Blacks to enter the medical school here. And they asked me to write out a plan that I thought would work to help this. Now, they were always very helpful, I&#039 ; m not going to take that credit from them. They were, they were very helpful at UAB. I asked them, I said, &quot ; The first thing I want you to do, we have a 100 places, I want you to save 10 slots open for Black people.&quot ; And to my surprise they said, &quot ; We can do that.&quot ; I was almost shocked at what my experience had been in the past. You know some of the things you don&#039 ; t get because you don&#039 ; t go and ask for them really. And they agreed to hold ten slots and we got to the place where we could get 9-10 people admitted. During a 3-4 year period I remember interviewing every single Black student who applied for medical school there. I did this all on my on time. Everybody else, of course, was on salary from the University except me. Actually, that&#039 ; s all right, I didn&#039 ; t mind that. But I thought that this gave me a great opportunity to try to open the door and see that the doors would never be closed again at the medical school. And we would get the people admitted, and I must be truthful, 90% of the people I thought ought to be admitted, got admitted. There were many who I did not think was ready to go to medical school. And I didn&#039 ; t go on record of recommending somebody I thought wasn&#039 ; t going to be able to do the work there. They would tell me, &quot ; Doctor, I was working in civil rights.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, you can&#039 ; t show me that on this transcript, here.&quot ; And I think it&#039 ; s a good thing to be in civil rights. But if you are going to school, you&#039 ; ve got to get prepared to go to school. If not, you just go there and they get you out before you get there. But we worked this thing for 3 or 4 years and the committee was never dissolved, they just stopped meeting. They had thought they had done enough I think. And that&#039 ; s often the case. They felt they had made these few concessions, now that&#039 ; s enough. That&#039 ; s what they are talking about affirmative action now. All of a sudden, it&#039 ; s enough. Yet, the doors that are still closed. There are glass ceilings which are still there. But, of course, we&#039 ; ve done enough. HUNTLEY: Did you actually practice until 1984? MONTGOMERY: Yes. The office was open for the next four years, I did some things. But, I was not active on a day-to-day basis after 1984, but I was keeping the office open because I had a son who was coming out of medical school and doing his residency at D. C. General Hospital. And he final came in and took over what was left of the practice. HUNTLEY: Is he here now? MONTGOMERY: Yes. He moved from North Birmingham where I had been, where the two of us had been for about 35 years, I guess. He moved out to Princeton Professional Building recently and he&#039 ; s here now, doing very well. He&#039 ; s my youngest son. I have an older son who is an attorney and he&#039 ; s a partner in the law firm, whose main headquarters is in Boston, but he&#039 ; s in the Washington, D.C. branch and they are both doing very well, thanks to the Lord. We&#039 ; ve been blessed. With children, my wife and I have been blessed. HUNTLEY: This has been a great revelation. You&#039 ; ve also been on the threshold of many of this era of change. You&#039 ; ve contributed an awful lot. Is there any other thing that we have not touched on that you would like to just mention in this interview? MONTGOMERY: I think you have mentioned most of the things. The things that I was most happy with was first being able to help open the hospital doors so no Black physician would have to one day be disqualified, he cannot practice here anymore. Opened the medical society, of course, where when you open one door, several doors usually open. I was very happy about the work we were doing at CAC because I think that police brutality is not as bad in Birmingham now as it is in Los Angeles, California and I&#039 ; ve been very happy about that. That was a constant working struggle, really. And several other things. I think that during the time that -- do you remember the Bonita Carter incident? I was one of the people on that panel and I think that the Bonita Carter incident defeated David Vann and helped the mayor get elected really. I was on that panel. I was very proud of getting four Blacks and four Whites to come up with an answer that they had never heard of before. I remember that night when I came back home, they had called me. Dick Arrington called me and said, &quot ; How did you get them folks to say that?&quot ; HUNTLEY: What did they say? MONTGOMERY: Well, that this was unnecessary. That there was no reason at all for him to shoot this girl in the back and there was more to it than that, but I don&#039 ; t have the statement right in front of me. But, to get them to come to that conclusion was a major accomplishment whether you know it or not, here in Birmingham. And, it was a committee equally divided between Blacks and Whites. I walked in the meeting that night and I looked around and saw that &quot ; M&quot ; was the last letter in the alphabet on the committee and I decided that maybe I&#039 ; d let all these people give their ideas about what we ought to do first. So that gave me a chance to kind of get a statement that they could accept together in my mind. And, low and behold, again, they accepted it. But these things had helped make some changes in the life whether it was the medical school, opening the doors of the hospital, helping with voter registration or helping the community any way I could. These things have been very important to me in my life. HUNTLEY: Who were the other people that were on the committee? MONTGOMERY: I don&#039 ; t remember them all. Rev. Gardner was on there. Rev. Sam Davis was on there. Rabbi Graffner was on the committee. The fellow who was superintendent of schools at the time. He&#039 ; s been down in Louisiana and Maryland as superintendent. I can&#039 ; t think of his name, right now. And there was a fellow from Bromberg, a fellow from UAB was on there, he was teaching history at the University of Alabama. It was a well known in town. HUNTLEY: But you had four Blacks. HUNTLEY: Four Blacks and four Whites, yes. We had hearings there for about a week or ten days. I think it helped put the wheels in motion because I think that&#039 ; s when Vann lost his support in the Black community. And I didn&#039 ; t know that all his support was in the Black community until then. HUNTLEY: Dr. Montgomery, I want to thank you for taking this time. You have been very, very helpful and I&#039 ; m sure that the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute is very appreciative. MONTGOMERY: Well, I&#039 ; m only to happy to do it and the best of luck to the Institute and to you. HUNTLEY: Thank you sir. MONTGOMERY: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JTMontgomery1995.xml JTMontgomery1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dr. James T. Montgomery Description An account of the resource Dr. James T. Montgomery discusses supporting the Movement politically, financially and medically. He served as Rev. Shuttlesworth's family physician and treated Dr. King. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950922M Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham African Americans in medicine Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-09-22 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/e372922ee46f053c66753bfbbe34cad6.jpg a6efea08b8337abee1f303eca74edfa8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lawrence Pijeaux OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=LPijeaux1997.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. New Orleans (La.) Art Education OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 June 11, 1997 Dr. Lawrence Pijeaux (1997) 19970611P 1:07:50 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham African American Museum Association Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) New Orleans (La.) Art Education Lawrence Pijeaux Horace Huntley Video 1:|15(3)|35(2)|47(6)|63(5)|75(1)|94(3)|112(12)|122(5)|137(4)|149(9)|172(2)|184(15)|200(15)|220(4)|235(3)|257(2)|270(10)|283(12)|301(3)|322(14)|339(5)|357(11)|376(8)|398(13)|421(12)|431(11)|447(5)|460(11)|471(5)|482(2)|494(3)|505(12)|518(5)|536(1)|543(4)|554(5)|569(14)|583(2)|591(8)|606(9)|620(13)|633(14)|646(15)|658(2)|678(10)|696(1)|700(14)|717(2)|727(2)|739(9)|751(8)|762(2)|772(6)|783(8)|795(2)|803(6)|814(6)|827(5)|837(6)|846(14)|858(2)|868(15)|878(2)|890(4)|906(8)|919(5)|931(1) 0 https://youtu.be/TbpXKIKFDKE YouTube video English 0 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Dr. Lawrence J. Pijeaux, the Executive Director of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Dr. Lawrence Pijeaux is introduced African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 44 Family Background Where are you from? Pijeaux states that he was born in New Orleans, Louisiana to a working-class Creole family with his parents and two younger siblings. Louisiana Creole language ; New Orleans (La.) ; Working class--United States--History--20th century African American families 380 Educational Background Tell me just a bit about your elementary school days. Pijeaux describes his time at all-black elementary and high schools, where he was encouraged by several authority figures to pursue higher education. He also recalls how he would receive insults and racial slurs while he rode the bus to school. Segregation in education--United States McCarty Elementary School (New Orleans, La.) ; McDonogh 35 Senior High School (New Orleans, La.) 843 Boycotts &amp ; Segregation in New Orleans I was involved cause our university was involved in some demonstrations. Pijeaux states that the types of demonstrations that were happening in Birmingham were also taking place in New Orleans, which included selected buying strategies and sit-ins. He also recounts the times of sitting in segregated sections of the bus and in movie theaters. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; New Orleans (La.) ; Segregation in transportation ; Selected Buying Campaign Boycotts ; Segregation 1081 College Experiences Why did you make the decision to go to Southern New Orleans? Pijeaux details how he began his college education at Southern University in New Orleans before transferring to Grambling State University. He then dropped out of Grambling, spent time traveling and as a professional waiter and bus driver before returning to college and becoming a teacher. Buchanan, Junious ; Bus drivers ; Food service employees ; Harris, James Larnell ; Jones, James C. ; Reed, Willis, 1942- ; Southern University in New Orleans African American college students ; Grambling State University 1570 Teaching Through Desegregation That was my first goal to give something back to the community. To return as a teacher. Pijeaux explains how he came to be a middle school art teacher at a school undergoing desegregation. Art teachers ; Busing for school integration African American educators ; School integration--United States 1852 Color &amp ; Class Consciousness Some people ask the question weather your Creole background assisted you in any way, or in New Orleans, Creole was either Black or White just like any place else? Pijeaux expresses that in New Orleans, the perception of race was divided into binary categories of Black and white. Pijeaux also describes the stark differences of the perception of class in the school that he attended versus the school at which he taught. Esplande (New Orleans, La.) ; Rampart Street (New Orleans, La.) ; Suburbs--United States ; White flight America--Race relations ; Class consciousness 2187 Becoming a Principal &amp ; Receiving His Doctorate Now you stayed in education and you became a principal in New Orleans. Pijeaux describes the various schools in which he taught, including Southern University in New Orleans, Eleanor McMain Secondary School. He became Assistant Principal and later Principal at McMain while also working on his Doctorate from the University of Southern Mississippi. He discusses major topics of his goals to effectively improve the conditions in public education. Assistant school principals ; Eleanor McMain Secondary School (New Orleans, La.) ; Southern University in New Orleans African American school principals ; Doctoral students 2813 Working in New Jersey &amp ; the Indianapolis Museum of Art You go from a southern city inner school system to an eastern city in New Jersey. What are the differences and similarities in terms of schools? Pijeaux contrasts the schools in New Orleans and New Jersey. He remarks that he experienced more segregation &amp ; issues in the two and a half years he spent teaching in New Jersey than he did in the South. He then moved to Indianapolis and began working for the Indianapolis Museum of Art. Indianapolis (Ind.) ; New Jersey African American art museum curators ; Indianapolis Museum of Art ; Segregation in education--United States 3091 Perspectives on the American Educational System Before we get too far in the field you are presently involved in as an educator, what happened with the education you've seen in the South, you saw it in the East during the period of time when we were in school during our generation. Pijeaux reflects on how the educational system has changed in the past twenty to thirty years due to lower expectations for the younger generations. He states that the root of many issues in educational systems starts at the board level, which ideally should prioritize education, and that the attitudes in these areas affect all the administrations and the quality of education as a whole. School boards--United States African American children--Education ; Critical issues in the future of learning and teaching 3369 The African American Museum Association &amp ; the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute You would somehow find out about a position in Birmingham, Alabama. Pijeaux details becoming a council member of the African American Museum Association and then the Executive Director of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. He emphasizes the importance of the Black community to be involved in the museum field. AAMA ; Indianapolis Museum of Art African American Museum Association ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 3878 Contributions to the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute What do you view is your major contribution since you've been here? Pijeaux states that his biggest contribution to the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute was bringing organization to the overall structure and functions of the Institute. Graves, Earl G., 1935- Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Contributions in critical museology and material culture 4056 Conclusion of the Interview Conclusion of Interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history interview Oral History Dr. Lawrence Pijeaux discusses demonstrating in New Orleans before pursuing a career in arts education. He served at various institutions, including the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute, and worked to increase Black community involvement in museums. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Dr. Lawrence J. Pijeaux, the Executive Director of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. I&#039 ; m Dr. Horace Huntley presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is June 11, 1997. Dr. Pijeaux, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to sit and talk with me this morning. Basically what we&#039 ; re doing is just trying to develop some brief biographies and you being the Executive Director of the Institute, you&#039 ; re one of the first persons we really need to look at in this regard. So, we&#039 ; ll talk about you and your background. Where are you from? PIJEAUX: I&#039 ; m from New Orleans, Louisiana. HUNTLEY: New Orleans , Louisiana. Your parents, were they originally from New Orleans? PIJEAUX: Yes, both of my parents are from New Orleans. From different sections of the city. HUNTLEY: Ok. PIJEAUX: My mother is from an area that would be considered, I think now it&#039 ; s called Six Ward. New Orleans is divided up into Wards and the wards is geographic in nature. Just like you have north, south, east and west. Here in New Orleans you have third ward, fourth ward, sixth ward, seventh ward. My mother was from the sixth ward which was primarily located in downtown New Orleans. My dad is 0riginally from the seventh ward which is basically south west. It&#039 ; s adjacent to sixth ward, southwest of downtown. HUNTLEY: So, both of them were born in New Orleans, in the city? PIJEAUX: Yes, yes, that&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: Were their parents from New Orleans as well? PIJEAUX: Yes. My grandparents lived long enough for me to get to know them. I think one of the things you need to know about my family is that they are a mixture of Creoles. Creoles I guess what would be called multi-cultural today. It&#039 ; s a mixture of French and African­ American. HUNTLEY: Pijeaux? What is the name Pijeaux, is that French? PIJEAUX: It&#039 ; s a French name. Yes, it really is. As I was explaining with this whole Creole background that I b1ing. My father is a very fair skin person and all of his family members are. More often I know when people think of Creoles they think of light skinned people, but they don&#039 ; t realize that they are a mixture of people, some are light skinned, some are dark skinned. My mother&#039 ; s family, they are dark skinned Creoles but the one thing they had in common was the language. Unfortunately, that&#039 ; s something that wasn&#039 ; t passed on to my generation, but I have these vivid memories of my grandmothers&#039 ; --both my dad&#039 ; s mother and my mother&#039 ; s mother--speaking Creole. Which is a form of broken French. HUNTLEY: Would that be similar to ebonies? PIJEAUX: (Laughing) Yes, right. I find it interesting that when we talk about ebonies that our people have been bilingual since we first came to this country. That&#039 ; s nothing to be ashamed of. We had to find a way to communicate among our own because we came here in a situation where we were stripped of our language. We came with many languages. HUNTLEY: So, we developed a language that would be suitable somewhere in between one and the other. PIJEAUX: It was a language that we all became very familiar with and more often or that all of us have grown up with some form of what&#039 ; s now called ebonies. HUNTLEY: Absolutely. You know the New Orleans thing is very fascinating to me being from Birmingham. I see just the city itself, the layout of the city and it&#039 ; s an old city. Can you just talk about New Orleans, the early days in New Orleans? Before you do that let me ask you though about your parents. The education level of your father and your mother. Did they finish high school? PIJEAUX: No, neither of them finished high school. I guess they were probably what&#039 ; s called middle school drop outs if you would. Both of them dropped out either in seventh or eighth grade, trying to find a way to survive in this cruel country we lived in. HUNTLEY: Do you have siblings? PIJEAUX: Yes, I have two sisters who are both younger than I. One of the things that was, not unique in my family, but I think c01m11on to us as a people of my generation and that is education was always important. I remember as my sisters and I went to high school and beyond it was always important to our parents that we did well, that we did our homework even though they couldn&#039 ; t determine whether or not what we did was right, they know we had done something. They made an assumption that it was &quot ; A-OK&quot ; but the bottom line is that we had to do homework every night. HUNTLEY: Absolutely. What type of work did your parents do? PIJEAUX: My mother was a housewife for the most part and my dad was many things including porier, bus driver, not bus driver, truck driver, but basically what would be called a laborer, a common laborer. HUNTLEY: The area of New Orleans that you grew up in what area was it? PIJEAUX: The ninth ward, which was the southern part of the city. A very poor section of the city, most of the people that lived in that area were like my parents. HUNTLEY: Working class community. PIJEAUX: Yeah, very much so. HUNTLEY: Tell me just a bit about your elementary school days. What elementary school did you start? PIJEAUX: I attended McCarty Elementary School, all black. All black elementary school. Academics was always important at the school, always important. I remember growing up, not only in elementary school but junior high and senior high, I was a product of a segregated school system. In many ways I think I&#039 ; m ahead of the game in terms of education because education was always a high priority. I remember all of my teachers telling me that you have to be better than everybody else if you&#039 ; re going to succeed in this world. So, my teachers, in particular there was a gentleman, Mr. Lewis, I remember very vividly and I have fond memories of this guy ; for some reason he liked me. He saw something in me, he always encouraged me to do well in school. Even as I became an adult our paths crossed frequently when I moved into public education returning to the school system that I had graduated from this guy was an assistant principal and he encouraged me to return to school and get an advanced degree and ultimately he became a peer of mine. We were principals at the same period of time in New Orleans. It was him, then there was another guy that I met in high school, who again is a black male, who saw something in me and encouraged me to go on into school. This guy, Daniel McLean, who I met when I was in high school encouraged me to pursue mt as a career. So, that&#039 ; s what got me into the visual mis. HUNTLEY: Were you involved in any extracurricular activities in high school? PIJEAUX: Yes, I played in high school I played basketball. In junior high I played in several sports. I participated in several sports including football and basketball, but when I moved to high school I was really interested in art and I sang in the choir and then I played basketball. HUNTLEY: So, you were somewhat of a renaissance man in term of high school, in terms of sports, art and you were a good student as well. You had basically--you suggested that you had-­ a person or persons that were interested in you and they helped you to develop that vision that you were developing. PIJEAUX: At every step there was somebody, not only my parents, but there was somebody out there, more often or not it was a black male. In junior high school I met an African­ American female. You notice I&#039 ; m bouncing between Black and African-American. Well, I&#039 ; m old enough to go from nigger, colored, to Afro, African. To all these titles are labels that they associated with our side. I remember that, but there has always been somebody in my life who has seen some ability in me and that person has encouraged me. I&#039 ; ve tried to pass that on. I&#039 ; ve tried to identify people who have some ability and I&#039 ; ve tried to help them cause I&#039 ; ve learned from people who have helped me. HUNTLEY: What year did you finish high school? PIJEAUX: I graduated from McDonald 35 Senior High School in New Orleans, Louisiana in 1962. All black high school, college prep high school, very small. HUNTLEY: What do you mean in term of numbers? PIJEAUX: Numbers, if I&#039 ; m not mistaken we had less than 400 people in the entire school. In my graduating class we may have had 70 to 75 people. The principal knew everybody by name, he had a doctorate from Harvard. In some ways when I became a principal I kind of patterned myself after this guy. He knew what he was doing, he was always well groomed and he tried to get to know everybody in the school, he&#039 ; s another person I had good memories about. HUNTLEY: Was this a public school? PIJEAUX: Public school. HUNTLEY: New Orleans school system, 400. Was this an average sized school or was this a small school? PIJEAUX: This was a small school. It had selected enrollment, you had to apply for admission. Really when I was in middle school, or junior high school as my school was, I really wasn&#039 ; t thinking about attending a college prep high school. I went to the school because of some of my friends that were attending the school who encouraged me to attend the school and did not realize for the most pain what I was experiencing until long after the expe1ience. When I became an adult and looked back and saw so many people who were graduates from this school who had gone on to do a lot of positive things in the country. Then I really had a much better appreciation for the experience that I had. HUNTLEY: Was this a neighborhood school or did you have to 1ide the bus? PIJEAUX: I rode the bus. I passed by several White schools where folks were calling me nigger and 2-4-6-8 we don&#039 ; t want to integrate. Man, I remember. Those things, I think, have helped to make me the person that I am. I&#039 ; m strong in some of my convictions. I think I&#039 ; m a lot more sensitive to the needs of other people based on my expe1iences. Those experiences also helped me develop self-confidence. HUNTLEY: This was a time, the early 60s, when school were desegregated. Was that happening in New Orleans at the time? PIJEAUX: Sure, yes it was. HUNTLEY: Did you ever consider or did your family ever consider you being one of those students to desegregate one of the White schools? PIJEAUX: No. That was never a consideration. I was happy where I was, I was having a great time. My parents were pleased with the education I was receiving, so that was never a consideration. Even when I went on to college. I wanted to be with my people. I had gained and benefited from the nourishment that I had received in this all black environment for the most part. When I made a decision on entering graduate school then I went to a different envirom11ent. I went to Tulane University. Really I went there because of neighboring commissions and resources that the school offered. HUNTLEY: After you finished high school, then did you immediately go on to college? PIJEAUX: Yes I did. I went from high school, I went from McDonald 35 to Southern University in New Orleans, which was a branch of the main campus in Baton Rouge. Really from then on I was working, I was out there in the world of work, working my way through college. HUNTLEY: So, you worked during the time. PIJEAUX: I worked while I was attending school. HUNTLEY: This of course was a very important time as far as the movement was concerned. With you going to school and working you didn&#039 ; t have the opportunity then to be involved in a lot of the demonstrations, I would assume. PIJEAUX: Yes and no. I was involved cause our university was involved in some demonstrations. My major contribution was the boycott. I would not spend my money at any place or with anybody that did not have any appreciation for me and my people. HUNTLEY: 1962, here in Birn1ingham that is what we called the Selected Buying Campaign, in fact it was a boycott. It was illegal to use the term boycott, so they used the Selected Buying Campaign. The downtown stores were affected and it was based upon primarily the Alabama Christian Movement and so1i of a coalition with some of the Miles College students. It was very successful. Did the same kind of situation exist in New Orleans at this same time? PIJEAUX: Yes, sure. Basically the same things that were happening in Birmingham were happening in New Orleans to varying degrees. We were boycotting, we were....... HUNTLEY: Sit ins. PIJEAUX: We had sit ins, we had boycotts, people were not 1iding the bus, you name it we were doing it. HUNTLEY: The buses were set up in the same manner as Birmingham&#039 ; s? PIJEAUX: Same system. HUNTLEY: You had the board... PIJEAUX: You sat behind. You sat behind, we called it the screen but it was really a board, but we called it the screen. I remember as a kid riding the bus with my grandmother, my father&#039 ; s mother, who&#039 ; s a very, very fair ski1med woman and my grandmother would not sit behind that screen. Nobody could tell whether she was White or Black, so nobody bothered her. So, I had the experience of riding in front of the screen and behind the screen during the period of time when it was illegal for black people to ride in front of the screen. HUNTLEY: That depended on the grandmother you rode with. PIJEAUX: That&#039 ; s right. (Laughing) That was a real interesting experience. My grandmother lived in Uptown, New Orleans, adjacent to what is now called the Garden District. So, it was a mixed neighborhood and I remember as a youngster, I was probably somewhere between 8 and 12 playing with my grandmother&#039 ; s neighbor&#039 ; s grandchildren when we used to visit her in the summer. These were White kids, we&#039 ; d play together in the neighborhood and nobody would bother us and we had a real good relationship. I often wonder how these kids are doing having been adults for a long time now. When we would go to the movie I would be upstairs, I had to go around the side. HUNTLEY: Oh, you went to the movies together? PIJEAUX: We would go to the movies together, but we couldn&#039 ; t sit together. We&#039 ; d be in the movie throwing popcorn at one another. I was upstairs in the balcony throwing popcorn at them downstairs and they would be downstairs throwing it back at me. We had a real good relationship. At that period of time I wasn&#039 ; t really aware of the differences between the races, but as I got older I really became very cognizant of the differences. What some people could do and what some people couldn&#039 ; t do. A part of that experience has stayed with me and has motivated me to bring about some changes in what take? place with people. I find it ironic that here I am at the Institute where I can bring about some change. HUNTLEY: That reminds me of growing up. We had white friends as well, but it&#039 ; s up to the start of school and once we started school they went to their school and we went to our school and we would see each other occasionally after school, but as we grew older we grew apart. PIJEAUX: Yeah, that was the experience I had with these young people that lived next to my grandmother. HUNTLEY: Why did you make the decision to go to Southern New Orleans? PIJEAUX: Well, all the long the way through my schooling from elementary, junior high and high school my teachers encouraged me to attend an all Black school. I could&#039 ; ve gone to other schools but I wanted to continue my educational experience in an all Black arena. The expectations for me were high. The nurturing I thought would be different in that envirom11ent. I did not want to become a number, a statistic. I wanted to attend school where people had some appreciation for my experiences and could relate to those expe1iences. HUNTLEY: Did you consider going to Baton Rouge? PIJEAUX: Yes, I did. After spending a year at Southern in New Orleans, I spent a year at Grambling. HUNTLEY: Oh, ok. PIJEAUX: Had a good expe1ience but didn&#039 ; t have the money to stay there, so I dropped out for a while and traveled around the country as a waiter. HUNTLEY: Is that right? PIJEAUX: Yeah. I&#039 ; ve had some unique expe1iences. HUNTLEY: You went to Southern New Orleans.... PIJEAUX: I started at Southern New Orleans and then transferred to Grambling. HUNTLEY: What was that transition like? Now you were big city really going to Grambling, which is basically a rural area. What was that transition like? PIJEAUX: It was, I enjoyed it because for the first time in my life I was out there on my own and I had to take care of myself. Some of the things that my mother helped me with as a kid ; learning how to press clothes, learning how to wash, fold clothes, do a little cooking, all of those things that this lady had been telling me would be impo1tant and that I reluctantly did. Here they came looking at me square in the face where I had to do these things. So, it was a smooth adjustment, one that I didn&#039 ; t realize would come about as quickly as it came about, but I was able to do those things that I needed to do to survive. I really enjoyed that expe1ience, it taught me about survival skills, it taught me how to make it in this world. Unfortunately, I just didn&#039 ; t have the money to stay at Grambling and then I dropped out of school. HUNTLEY: Let me ask you before you start talking about that. You were some of a sports enthusiast and now you&#039 ; re at Grambling. Eddie Robinson is at Grambling. Of course, during this period we&#039 ; re talking about Grambling football. PIJEAUX: Grambling football and basketball. Willis Reed was on the team then when I was at Grambling. HUNTLEY: Can you talk about that? PIJEAUX: That was the most exciting college or university experience that I&#039 ; ve had in my life. The campus was a hot bed for academics, athletics and music. Not only did they have an outstanding football team, they had an outstanding baseball team, they had an outstanding basketball team, and they had one of the top bands in the country. The band was traveling all around the country and a lot of people don&#039 ; t realize that. Grambling at this time was producing several major league baseball players, a lot of people don&#039 ; t realize that. The president was the coach. HUNTLEY: Of the baseball team? PIJEAUX: Of the baseball team, the president of the University was the head baseball coach at this time. HUNTLEY: I didn&#039 ; t realize that. PIJEAUX: Yeah, yeah. It was just a real interesting expe1ience. The team that Willis Reed played on and many people may not know it but Willis Reed is in the Hall of Fame. If I&#039 ; m not mistaken he was selected as one of the 50 top basketball players. Well the team that Willis Reed was on also produced other professional basketball players, Jimmy Jones, was one. Jimmy Jones became a player with the Baltimore Bullets if I&#039 ; m not mistaken. They won a championship. Well, you had all these things going on. HUNTLEY: Had Buchanan left there? PIJEAUX: Buchanan had just left there. HUNTLEY: See, he was a Birmingham boy. PIJEAUX: Right, I know. We had Buchanan there, James Harris was on the way out, he became the first big time NFL quarterback. They had others I think, I think maybe the first may have been the kid from, well not a kid now, but the first may have been a guy from the University of Te1mes see who played wide receiver and quarterback for a very short time in the NFL. HUNTLEY: Harris was really the first to make it as a quarterback. PIJEAUX: Yes. There was a lot of excitement in the air back there and I really wanted to stay there, but again I didn&#039 ; t have the money. HUNTLEY: So, then what did you do? PIJEAUX: I dropped out of school for about two years. HUNTLEY: Did you go back to New Orleans? PIJEAUX: I did go to New Orleans. I had an uncle who was a professional waiter, who was in a management position. I had worked for him during the summers and after school on occasions and be was traveling around the country as a waiter. He worked for a company. Well, I worked with him and traveled to different parts of the country working as a professional waiter. Saved a little money, helped purchase a home for my parents during that period of time. HUNTLEY: On a waiter&#039 ; s salary? PIJEAUX: As a waiter. HUNTLEY: You were traveling the country. Where did you go? PIJEAUX: When we worked in Pine Bluff, Arkansas at a race track there. We worked at Churchill Downs where you had the Kentucky Derby. We worked at Kellin&#039 ; s Race Course in Lexington, Kentucky where you had, well, at the time, one of the most beautiful race tracks in the world, Kellin &#039 ; s Race Course. I worked at a place called the Red Mount Trotting Track, New Orleans. There was a real circuit that we traveled. HUNTLEY: Now your uncle was a mm1age r in the company. PIJEAUX: Well, he was a manager in the dining room, in many places he was the head waiter and in some places he was a captain. HUNTLEY: How long did you do this? PIJEAUX: I did that on a regular basis for two years. Part time maybe for several years while working my way through school. HUNTLEY: How long did it take you to get back to school? PIJEAUX: About two years. HUNTLEY: And you went where? PIJEAUX: I went back to Southern in New Orleans. From there after spending about a year I think in Southern in New Orleans and when I went back to Southern in New Orleans and stopped traveling I was hired as a bus driver in New Orleans. I was one of the first African-American bus d1ivers in New Orleans. 1 worked for the transit company at night as a driver and I attended Southern in New Orleans during the day. So, again I&#039 ; m still working my way through school. Saved up a little money and then transferred to Southern in Baton Rouge because Southern in New Orleans was about 3 or 4 years old at the time and they did not have an education department. I was pursuing a degree in art, but decided to focus on education because there wasn&#039 ; t too many African-Americans making money as fine artists. So, I decided I would become a teacher. I was impressed and the work that some of the people had impacted me in a positive way. That was my first goal to give something back to the community. To return as a teacher. HUNTLEY: So, when you then finished at Southern Baton Rouge was that your first position in New Orleans? PIJEAUX: It was. Before I graduated, as a matter of fact, I was recruited for a position in New Orleans. HUNTLEY: What level, high school or elementary school? PIJEAUX: It was a middle school. The school district was changing from the junior/senior high concept to the middle school/high school concept. So, I was hired by a gentleman that knew me from my days as a student. He remembered me playing ball. I played basketball against him. He was a coach and he had become the personnel director. He knew a little bit about my background. I wasn&#039 ; t fresh, I hadn&#039 ; t just gone from high school to college and returned for a job. He knew that I had a variety of experiences and saw that as a plus. He hired me to work at a middle school that was involved in desegregation. Tough job, but I had a lot of fun. HUNTLEY: That should have been an experience though because you were talking about the whole concept of desegregating this being a changing school. Was it a White school that was changing? PIJEAUX: Well, it was a White school that was bringing Blacks in. Now, think about my background. I felt up to the challenge. I had a variety of experiences. I had gone through, as a high school student, the fury of whites that were in opposition to the desegregation of the public school system. The system had desegregated never integrated. It was in the process of desegregation and it was a very slow process. This school that I was headed to as an art instructor was in its second or third year of this cold desegregation movement in New Orleans. All of the schools didn&#039 ; t move towards desegregation at the same pace. This school bused in youngsters from different areas of the city to help this desegregation work. It was a struggle. HUNTLEY: I&#039 ; ve heard all kinds of stories from teachers who went into situations such as that, about the difficulties that they had with children as well as with administration. What were your experiences? PIJEAUX: It was a tough environment to be in. One, many of the students found themselves in a desegregated environment and the kids still stayed close to those youngsters who were like family in many ways. There was not a lot of mingling, where you did find mingling was in the performing arts and athletics, where you find it now. So, you see now it&#039 ; s not so different from what I experienced 25 years ago. In terms of the staff, I can only give some assumptions. I felt some resentment from those Whites that had been in the school, who saw the school gradually changing in terms of the racial makeup of the professional staff. I really feel that the experiences that I brought to this job really helped me to make what I felt was a smooth transition from the university level to my first job as an instructor. I went to this school during the middle of the school year, people really needed me. So, that was a plus for me, they needed me. They had been through several all teachers who had no control, based on what I saw and what I was told prior to my arrival. They had no control over the kids and the kids were very disrespectful. When I went in, I felt some of the kids started off challenging me, but very quickly they understood that I was there to provide educational experiences for them and no matter what I was going to do that. So, for after about a week it was clear understanding who was in control. HUNTLEY: Some people ask the question rather your Creole background assisted you in any way, or in New Orleans Creole was either Black or White just like any place else? PIJEAUX: The assumption, I think, could be that because I&#039 ; m fair skinned that maybe things were easier for me than they may have been for darker skinned African-Americans. That was not the case for me, it was not the case and again I&#039 ; m making some assumptions here. I think it wasn&#039 ; t the case because I see myself being a little different. I&#039 ; ve always had some appreciation for who I am and I&#039 ; ve always been who I am. With me, what you see is what you get. I&#039 ; ve never been willing to sell myself for any doggone thing. If I believe it, then that&#039 ; s the way I&#039 ; m headed. If l don&#039 ; t believe in it, then I&#039 ; m going to tell you that and we can agree to disagree, we don&#039 ; t have to be enemies. I&#039 ; ve never been one who would be willing to settle myself for anything. HUNTLEY: So, in New Orleans, you were either Black or white. There was no, like in Brazil there is something called the Mulatto Escape Hatch, where people that are lighter skinned are not put at the same level as a Black person, but of course you are not at the level of that person that is white either. That didn&#039 ; t exist in New Orleans? PIJEAUX: Yeah, there were varying degrees of that, sure. People made assumptions about people based on how they looked initially. My experience has been, once you see how people operate, once they find out if they can buy or sell you, then they will treat you a little bit differently. There have been several people in my home town who felt--and again I&#039 ; m dealing with assumptions because I don&#039 ; t know all the facts--as an outsider looking in. I felt people were given an opportunity because of the way they look ed and then they were able to hold onto those opportunities because of what they did. In many instances, what they did was for them and only them, or for them and for people who were close, but not for the masses. I have never been brought into that mentality. HUNTLEY: So, there was, of course, the whole concept of color consciousness. PIJEAUX: Sure. HUNTLEY: But also the concept of class. How did that play into the New Orleans situation? The school that you were going into, was that in a working class neighborhood just like the one that you came out of? PIJEAUX: Oh, it was in what I would describe as a red light district. It was an oasis in a sewer. This school that I attended was in downtown New Orleans on Rampart Street. Have you heard of Rampart Street, the history of Rampart Street? Let me tell you this, my school was directly, my high school, was directly across from what my grandmother would call a house of [inaudible] and I remember looking out of my chemistry class window at men who were across the street from me in a building where they would have their underwear on the line and these men wore rags around, they tied rags around their head and they would flirt with other men. On occasion when the instructor would turn his head and he would be talking about chemical makeups of various things, some of my friends and I would be saying ugly things to these people in this building. I remember one occasion we went to lunch and we found ourselves teasing some guys and they chased us all through the school house. That tells you a little bit about the high school I attended. Even with all of that Dr. Huntley, education was always held at high esteem at this place. HUNTLEY: Now, the school that you first taught in, was it in the same area? PIJEAUX: No, this school was on Esplande, which at the time was a middle class neighborhood that served the traditional middle class community at that time which was White. So, there was some concern from members of the community about the change in the school and the community started changing. People started moving out. Whites started moving out and Blacks started moving in. Now, today, like many schools, it&#039 ; s become an all Black school. HUNTLEY: Now you stayed in education and you became a principal in New Orleans. PIJEAUX: Right. HUNTLEY: How long did it take you to arrive at that position? PIJEAUX: Very quickly. As I look back on my life things have happened. It took me a while to get started, but after I got started things just started happening very quickly to me. I was in the classroom. I worked at Southern University in New Orleans for two years. Well, let me give you a chronology of this. I worked at the middle school, it was McDonald 28. I worked there for one year. After that year... I worked there for one semester, not one year because I went there in the middle of the school year. I graduated in January and went there sho1ily after graduation and spent a semester there, did a good job. The school system wanted me to stay, but I was offered a position at Southern University in New Orleans. One of my former instructors was accepted at Indiana University to work on a doctorate, so he recommended me to replace him. I stayed there for two years. HUNTLEY: What did you do there? PIJEAUX: I was an instructor. I worked in the Art Department ; had a great experience. I realized at that time I wanted to help mold and shape the lives of young people. So, I decided I did not want to work at the university level at that time. Went to graduate school at Tulane and not only did I earn a Master of Arts in teaching Degree but I certified for principalship. I was selected for an assistant principalship shortly after that. After coming out... I&#039 ; m trying to revisit all this in my head ; after earning my Masters I went to Ellen McMain, which is a public school in New Orleans, which was starting a college prep program. So, because of my background and my credentials I was selected for this job at McMain. I stayed there for two years and then I moved into assistant principal ship. Stayed at the assistant principal level for, I think, four or five years and then moved into the principalship. HUNTLEY: What type of school did you receive as your first school as a principal? PIJEAUX: Well, my first year was the acting principal of a school I had been an assistant principal. That school was predominantly Black, relatively new school, poorly constructed, poorly designed. HUNTLEY: Large school? PIJEAUX: Real large school. Grades 9-12 had in excess of 2,200 students. Good experience for me though, because it gave me an opportunity to see what could be done in this school. Like many people...when you&#039 ; re second or third in conm1and you&#039 ; re always second guessing the person who&#039 ; s heading the ship. I was like that and when it became my turn to take care of the building I had to quickly, quickly my friend. I developed a much better appreciation and understanding for what the guy who I was replacing was expe1iencing, because for the first time the buck stopped with me. I couldn&#039 ; t pass it to anybody. I couldn&#039 ; t say the principal wanted me to do this. I couldn&#039 ; t say I was following directions. I had to make decisions and it was a great learning expe1ience for me and we did make changes. We were able to show growth in test scores, and we were able to turn a deficit into a solid budget. In a very short period of time, we were able to do some of these things. I had the advantage of working in the environment. So, I knew where some changes could be made, unlike somebody who was brand new, who would have to find out where the changes had to be made. HUNTLEY: How long did you stay there? PIJEAUX: I stayed there for one year. I stayed there for one year and then was selected to head up a school that everybody thought was going to fail. They were ready to close this place. So, they said give it to Pijeaux, he&#039 ; s not going to do anything with this place. Well, as fate would have it a few years later we were able to show substantial growth, not only in test scores, reduced the violence at the school and... HUNTLEY: All of these are inner schools? PIJEAUX: All of these are inner schools, public schools, where I&#039 ; m working. Now, as I&#039 ; m working at this school I am the p1incipal. I enter the University of Southern Mississippi in Hattiesburg in the Doctoral Program and become very interested in the effective schools research. A lot of people don&#039 ; t realize it, but one of the fathers of that movement is Ryan Edmunds, a brother who worked in New York City and in Michigan and other parts of the country and basically what this brother was saying is: We know eve1ything we need to know to make a difference in schools. The question is do we want to change things? He also believed, as I do, it doesn&#039 ; t matter where kids come from, what matters is what you do within the four walls of those schools and kids should not be held accountable for the actions of their parents. It&#039 ; s no kids fault he may grow up in an environment like I did, where my parents weren&#039 ; t well educated, or grow up in an environment like I did where my people were poor. None of those things have doodley squat to do with whether or not this kid can achieve in school. I really embraced that notion when I started this Doctoral Program because I was looking for what I could find that was out there that was being done. I didn&#039 ; t want to reinvent the wheel, I wanted to find out what was being done. Some of the things this brother found as he did his research around the country and there were other people working with him. Some people heard of Brook Overen and there&#039 ; s a few other people who I can&#039 ; t recall right now. But I did my research on this for my doctoral. A couple of things that you can find in schools that are effective. One, people are clear on the goals, they know where they&#039 ; re going. Two, they monitor student perfo1mance. Three the schools are clean and orderly, these places are safe and when you see people moving around everybody can see that there&#039 ; s some business taking place here and you don&#039 ; t have to go visit a school and stay in somebody&#039 ; s classroom for 30 or 40 minutes to get some sense of what&#039 ; s going on. When you walk in that building you can tell whether or not that education is impo1iant. So, I traveled to some of the school districts that were expe1iencing some success. I went to Memphis, visited with Hanington who is now mayor, he was supe1intendent, went to some of his schools. Saw some of the same characteristics that Edmund was talking about there. Went to Atlanta... HUNTLEY: This is when you were working on your doctorate? PIJEAUX: This is when I&#039 ; m working on my doctorate and principal of a school. I met Alonso Crem, who was doing some real positive things. Crem and Hanington were probably the two longest tenured African-American superintendents in any major school systems in this country. Those guys made some positive changes in those dist1icts. Those things that Ryan Edmunds had found in his research, I found it in those schools that were doing well in those two cities. So, I implemented those things. HUNTLEY: You were principal and you worked on your doctorate at the same time? PIJEAUX: Yes, yes. HUNTLEY: How did you juggle those two? PIJEAUX: Well, once I found what I was looking for in terms of what I could use at the school sight to make a positive impact on students and teachers then I kind of backed off on the doctorate and spent some time, I mean doing some serious things in schools. I was selected as one of ten American hems in education. I think it was 1989 and left New Orleans and went to New Jersey and took on another principalship. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to leave New Orleans? PIJEAUX: Well, that&#039 ; s a whole other story. It&#039 ; s related to my wife and I making a decision that it was time for us to leave. But left New Orleans and took on a principalship in New Jersey and with my wife, my assistant and my mother encouraging me to return to school to complete the Doctorate. With that support I did that. HUNTLEY: Ok. PIJEAUX: So, I finished the Doctorate. I was commuting between two cities in New Jersey working on the Doctorate and also commuting between New Jersey and Mississippi working on the Doctorate. It was a struggle, but it was worth it. I eventually finished the doggone thing. HUNTLEY: You go from a southern city, inner city school system to an eastern city in New Jersey. What are the differences and similarities in terms of schools? PIJEAUX: Contrary to belief, I found that the schools in the East, in particular those that I was involved in, were more segregated and more problems that I had experienced in the South. There were more divisions, there were more groups. You bad people in these schools from different parts of the world and they had their own groups. So, there were more internal problems between students and among students in the school systems that I am familiar with in the East. HUNTLEY: How long were you in New Jersey? PIJEAUX: I was in New Jersey for about two and a half years maybe three years. HUNTLEY: Then you get an opportunity to move again and go to Indianapolis. PIJEAUX: Going to Indianapolis, going back to an opportunity to go return to my first love. Which was art. I started up a new program at the Indianapolis Museum of Art. They had received a lot of money from the same group that had selected me as one of ten American Negroes in education a few years later. Readers Digest gave a big chunk of money to this museum to diversify its audience. They were looking for someone who could do that. They were really looking for somebody from their own area. I applied for the job and was selected. Shortly after taking on this position I realized that there were opportunities in this field. A lot of opportunities for African-Americans. I said to my wife I think I&#039 ; ve stumbled onto something. HUNTLEY: What did you see in Indianapolis that you liked that would keep you in that particular area and in that field? PIJEAUX: Well, I liked the city, thought it was a nice place to raise a family. My kids were getting older. I thought it was a nice place to raise a family. I thought it was a great opportunity because it was a new position, the people didn&#039 ; t know exactly how they were going to get to where they were going, but they knew where they wanted to go. So, I thought I could create. I thought I could use my creative ability. I&#039 ; m a creative person. It was another opportunity for me to help people. Now you think about all of the different things that I have done, they&#039 ; ve all been related to helping people. You think about what I told you when I said I wanted to return to New Orleans as a teacher. It was to give back. Every place I&#039 ; ve been there has been this thing in my head that&#039 ; s saying: hey, don&#039 ; t forget where you come from, you have to help other people, people have helped you to get where you are. So, that has been an underlying motive of all of the jobs that I have had. That has been something that has been a d1iving force in me. Trying to help other people, trying to help my own people. Trying to help other people have a better understanding of us. Trying to help us understand ourselves. All of those things are in this mix that I am feeling. Indianapolis also was, as I said, it was an opportunity for me to keep moving in this direction, but it was also an opportunity for me to go back to something that I cared about for most of my life and that was art. I&#039 ; ve always been connected to art in some form or fashion. It was also an opportunity for me to utilize most of the things that I had experienced in life. My administrative experience, my interest in education, my interest in art, what I perceived to be and I still think I have this ability to work with people to move toward a common goal. So, I thought I could put all of those things together at the Indianapolis Museum of Art. While at the same time, explore a new field. HUNTLEY: Before we get too far in the field you are presently involved in as an educator, what happened with education you&#039 ; ve seen in the South, you saw it in the East during the period of time when we were in school during om generation. You made the statement that people cared and they challenged you. What happened that now inner city education is totally under fire, what took place to create that difference in the last 20-30 years? PIJEAUX: I think a lot of things have happened. If I could really answer that and resolve this I could make a lot of money. I will tell you some things that I think have contributed to the problems that we see now. One, we have problems within our families. We have a lot of homes that are not headed by anybody, because to be honest we are talking about whether they are headed by male or female. Some of these homes are headed by children. I see that as a problem. There has been a problem with youngsters as I see it not respecting adults. Now why that exists, it has to be related to their experiences at home but to really define it in any one form or fashion I can&#039 ; t, but that is a problem. I see youngsters walking on the streets, they&#039 ; re using vulgar language, disregard of any adult who is in ear shot of what they are saying. During my time you could not do that. You would have a big problem. Adults are afraid to talk to kids, that&#039 ; s another part of the problem. In schools, as I see it, the number one problem is low expectations. We expect kids to fail and so they fail. I think if we could address the expectations of youngsters in a positive way, I think we would experience more success. Now I am really over simplifying this doggone problem, but the number one thing as an educator that I see is that the expectations are low for kids and no matter what we say we can&#039 ; t fool these kids. It&#039 ; s not what you say, it&#039 ; s what you do. It&#039 ; s what you convey to kids nonverbally about what you expect from them, I think, that they really believe. HUNTLEY: In Birmingham we have a situation where education is under fire. As an educator are there any areas that you see, whether it&#039 ; s Birmingham, New Orleans, or New York, that you definitely will have to deal with in order to connect what we feel is wrong in our system today? PIJEAUX: Every place I&#039 ; ve been, Horace, it&#039 ; s been the same problem. It&#039 ; s at the board level. That&#039 ; s where you have to start. You have to really find people who have children as their number one priori ty and will bite these tough bullets that we need to look at in a very affirmative way. That will have a positive impact on children. I&#039 ; ve lived in New Orleans, I&#039 ; ve lived in New Jersey, I&#039 ; ve lived in Indiana and now here I am in Birmingham. Every place the problems are similar. From my perspective it appears as though we are not getting the right leadership at the board level. As a result of that, those problems that you are experiencing at the board level, they filter down to the superintendent and from the superintendent to the staff. Education, positive, effective, meaningful education has to be a top priority at the board level, we have to move away from these political problems that we are experiencing. HUNTLEY: You would somehow find out about a position in Birmingham, Alabama. You are at the Museum of Art in Indianapolis and you make a decision to leave there and come to Birmingham. Why? PIJEAUX: Well, I think it&#039 ; s important for me to share with you, one, how I found out about the position and why somebody thought I might be the guy. After working at the Indianapolis Museum of Art for about four months I became aware of the African­ American Museum Association and I joined. I attended a conference in Roanoke, Virginia and met some of the key players in the organization. Comparatively speaking when you look at other professional organizations, AAMA, as I will refer to it, is a small group, but there are a lot of committed people in the group. I shared with some of the council members, as a matter of fact, I met one of the council members on the plane going to Roanoke. I didn&#039 ; t know this lady was on the council, told her a little bit about my background, that I was at the Indianapolis Museum of Ali that I wanted to make a contribution, that I wanted to help. I wanted to learn as much as I could while working in Indianapolis, but my goal was to go to an African-American Museum where I could continue what I&#039 ; ve been doing all my life, as what I said, trying to help people, trying to educate folks. Unbeknowing to me, there was a council meeting and my name surfaces. I had talked with other council members during my stay in Roanoke, not knowing these people are on the council, but folks see that I&#039 ; m new and they want to know what I&#039 ; m doing, etc. So, I&#039 ; m saying to a variety of people basically the same thing. Hey, I want to get involved, I wanna help, let me know what I can do. Well, not only do you tell people you want to help, you find yourself with a job. So, I found myself being asked to help with the next conference, and I did. Within a very short period of time, make a long story short, I became a council member. The president of the association and other council members and other people in the field quickly learned that I was in the field, that I was interested in helping, that I was working at a museum under what&#039 ; s called the mainstream museum in the field and that I had something to offer and people encouraged me. Here I go again, people encouraging me saying, hey, something is going to open up, be patient. As I told you before, in many instances things have happened to me quickly and within two and a half years in the field, I became very popular. During that time, the guy that I worked for recognized he could use me, he could use me to promote what he was doing at his museum. I recognized that, but I also saw the opportunity to let people in the field know that I had some ability. So, I said, ok use me, but I&#039 ; m going to let people know what I had on the ball here. So, it was a win-win situation, my working in Indianapolis. I was able to help some people. Some of those people were our people who became subcontractors with the museum, employees with the museum, we did some programing with that museum. So, we were able to help. HUNTLEY: You got the Black community involved with the museum. PIJEAUX: That&#039 ; s right that was my charge, not only as visitors but as employees. That was important to me. Not just full-time employees, but people who provide services to the museum that brought them funds. The museum was contracting with a lot of people, so we brought in some African-Americans, who they can contract with, who they have not contracted with previously. So, we were able to help the African-American community during our brief stay there. Also, expose to the museum staff African-Americans who knew what they were doing. So, they had a better appreciation, I think, of what we had in the community. It gave the director an opportunity to showcase an African-American that he had, so he was able to go and tell his colleges that I got one. I understood what that was all about, but it also gave me an opportunity to show people around the country what I could do and what I had done in Indianapolis, because I found myself going out in the field speaking about what we were doing in Indianapolis. With supporting documentation, where people understood that I wasn&#039 ; t just talking about something, but that I was actually doing something. So, after approximately two and a half years people begin contacting me about employment. I was about to accept a job in Chicago, because I would have been a director of a facility. I was in the final stages of the screening process and had been told that we want you for this job and put that on hold, because I received a call from the president of the African-American Museum Association. He said to me, it&#039 ; s my understanding that the Bimringham Civil Rights Institute is looking for an Executive Director. He said are you interested? I said yes. I had been here on two occasions. I have a friend here in Birmingham and shortly after this place opened I came to visit. About a year after it was opened, I came back a second time because my family still lived in New Orleans. So, wherever we lived we would pass through Birmingham, my family and I could visit New Orleans. So, I was familiar with the facility, I mean, overwhelmed with it when I first came. When I was told there was a possibility of employment here, I seized that opportunity. HUNTLEY: What was the attraction in terms of the facility? PIJEAUX: What this place stands for. It was directly related to my personal experiences. I grew up with this. I experienced this. It was another opportunity again to help educate, to make a difference. In an environment, when I say environment, I&#039 ; m talking about the entire community that I&#039 ; m comfortable with, that I&#039 ; m familiar with. For the first time my family and I, since leaving New Orleans, would be in an environment where we had a friend. Where I knew somebody. HUNTLEY: That makes a difference. PIJEAUX: It makes a big difference. Where I was really close to home. Where I felt at home. So, those things are some of the reasons that I came here. I was impressed with some of the board members who I interviewed with. That&#039 ; s the whole story. When you work for a board, there&#039 ; s going to be good and bad days and, in particular, when you&#039 ; re working for the first board that brings on a whole different set of circumstances. When I looked at the total picture, I felt good about what I saw and I still feel good about it. HUNTLEY: What do you view is your major contribution since you&#039 ; ve been here? PIJEAUX: Organization. I would like to think that that&#039 ; s going to be my major contribution, helping to organize the place. At some point, maybe the near future, you&#039 ; re going to need a different person to come in here, but I think my major contribution has been and should be helping to organize the place, putting policies in place, getting people familiar with how to operate, how to work together. That&#039 ; s been a struggle, with the setting of high level of expectations, getting people to function in a very professional maimer. Knowing that they should go to the top, don&#039 ; t go to the second step. Earl Graves, when he was here, talked about that. You go to the top. Know with a new group of people...you know people here for the most part have not been in leadership positions. HUNTLEY: Right. PIJEAUX: Most of the people we find here, great people, want to do a good job, but just need somebody to help them to find their way. Somebody who&#039 ; s going to wrap their arms around them. Having a high level of expectations, calling a spade a spade, but being sensitive to the fact that all of these people are new. They want somebody to help them to work effectively. So, I see that as my role being a leader, but a friend. It&#039 ; s like being a father figure, I guess. I guess that&#039 ; s a pain of it all. So, when people have problems they&#039 ; re willing to come and talk with me about those problems, not feeling that I&#039 ; m a guy they can&#039 ; t talk to and recognizing that I&#039 ; m just another brother, who happens to provide leadership here, but who has not forgotten where he&#039 ; s come from. That&#039 ; s really important to me, that people recognize that. HUNTLEY: Well, I think you&#039 ; ve been rather successful in accomplishing that, because you have a smooth running ship and people walk through and find out how nice it is being maintained. PIJEAUX: That is great. I feel good about that, Horace. I remember when my wife and I came to visit the Institute, before I accepted the position and she told me. What you have just said is what my wife said to me would be my biggest challenge, maintaining this facility. I really think and I guess I&#039 ; m looking at this through rose colored glasses, but I think we&#039 ; ve done a good job of that. I think this place is in good shape and I think when you and I and others are gone, if we&#039 ; ve done our job, people will come here and they will find a good place. HUNTLEY: I want to thank you for taking this hour out of your busy schedule. I know that you have many, many things that you have to do. We need to do this again, but I appreciate this morning. PIJEAUX: Thanks, I&#039 ; ve enjoyed it. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=LPijeaux1997.xml LPijeaux1997.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dr. Lawrence Pijeaux (1997) Description An account of the resource Dr. Lawrence Pijeaux discusses demonstrating in New Orleans before pursuing a career in arts education. He served at various institutions, including the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute, and worked to increase Black community involvement in museums. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19970611P Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham African American Museum Association Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1997-06-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/a99e75668fa6709a2efdc6e88c99b88c.jpg 9af2eb6d7a8ccc8b576be50a193f93aa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Edward S. LaMonte Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Richard Arrington Jr. OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RArringtonJr2001a.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Miles College OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 July 23, 2001 Richard Arrington Jr. (1 of 2) Interviewed on July 23, 2001 20010723A 4:01:13 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Jess Holdnak Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Pitts, Luscious Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka Birmingham (Ala.). Mayor Miles College Dr. Richard Arrington Jr. Edward S. 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Dr. Arrington talks about moving from Livingston to Fairfield, his family history and life as a child in Birmingham. He discusses early role models, and seeing electric lights for the first time. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Blacks--Segregation ; Fairfield (Ala.) 786 Early Life and Childhood: Industrial Highschool When I finished Industrial High School, where I had studied dry-cleaning, because it was an industrial school and it offered us, what had called the straight academic program for those students who intended to go on the college. But most of the students of course were studying some trade, tailoring, upholstery, shoe repair, auto mechanics and things of that sort. Dr. Arrington talks about studying dry-cleaning in high school, his high school experience and his parents. Industrial High School Arrington family 1793 Early Life and Childhood: Living In a Segregated Society You mentioned your mother’s concern in particular about police encounters or other incidents. Were there any terrible incidents in your childhood or times when living in a segregated society was very punishing and you knew at the time? Dr. Arrington talks about his experience and knowledge of segregation as a child. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Blacks--Segregation 1974 Early Life and Childhood: Church You’ve talked about the importance of family, of high school and of the community that you grew up in that produced role models. Were there other institutions or organizations that were important in your early years, church, and civic groups, anything along those lines? Dr. Arrington mentions the importance of church in his life. Church ; Conley Bethel Primitive Baptist Church 2111 Education: Miles College I ended up going to college right here and actually two blocks from where I grew up at Miles College. And I go to college, I start as a freshman, I have no idea what I’m going to study, but as I said I knew I was going Dr. Arrington talks about the path that led him to study Biology at Miles. Biology ; Miles College 2283 Education: Graduate School And that I said, “I’m 20 years old and I just graduated from college.” And I leave Alabama for the first time in my life, I take the greyhound bus and off I go to Detroit and I married by that time too at 20 years. So off we go on the bus to Detroit, I’ll never forget it was a tearful moment, I cried, didn’t want to leave home. Dr. Arrington talks about being one of only a few black student at the University of Detroit and not having to deal with segregation or the first time. He also talks about teaching at Miles after receiving his Master's, receiving a National Science Foundation Fellowship, and applying to Ph.D programs. Biology--Study and teaching (Higher) ; Education Miles College ; University of Detroit ; University of Oklahoma 2739 Politics: Voting Were there any thoughts at all at this point in your career about public service, politics, anything other than higher education? Dr. Arrington talks about registering to vote and voter tests. Jefferson County (Ala.) ; Pitts, Luscious Voter registration 3176 Politics: The Civil Rights Movement During the time you were in college, the Brown vs. Board of Education decision was handed down by the supreme court and then I guess during your graduate school years, the Civil Rights Movement, perhaps peeked and had its greatest impact. How did those developments in the civil rights arena either affect your life or shaped your thinking during that period of time? Dr. Arrington talks about his awareness and involvement in the Civil Rights Movement and in desegregation, including his children attending desegregated schools. Civic League ; Fairfield (Ala.) Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka ; Civil rights movement 3470 Education :Doctoral Studies 1961, I was at Washington University when he was chosen president. In fact, I first met him when I was a graduate student at Washington University and he came to St. Louis to speak to a group of Mileans, I attended that sessions and that was when I first met Luscious Pitts. L: So you taught at Miles and then went off and earned your PhD ultimately--? Dr. Arrington talks about his doctoral program. Pitts, Luscious Miles College 3628 Politics: Summer of 1963 So you left beginning your doctoral work in ’63, were you here during the summer of ’63 when the demonstrations were occurring? Dr. Arrington talks about working with Civil Rights Leaders. He also mentions George Wallace and the assignation of John F. Kennedy. 1963 ; Gaston, A. G. (Arthur George), 1892- ; Halls, Peter ; Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 ; Montgomery, James ; Wallace, George ; Woods, Abraham ; Woods, Calvin Civil rights movement 4169 Education: University of Oklahoma and Discrimination But those were things that sort of stick with you, but I was Oklahoma in ’63 for three years and enjoyed it. Took 2 1⁄2 years, taught there the last semester I was there, the whole three-year period and it was basically a good experience. Socially it was, somewhat different. Oklahoma turned out to be not that different from Alabama, they had gone through a lot of litigation already about desegregation and I wasn’t aware of that, as I should have been. Dr. Arrington talks about discrimination in off-campus housing and the University of Oklahoma, discrimination at restaurants, and the history of segregation on campus. He also talks about his friendship with Professor Harley Brown. Norman, Oklahoma ; Oklahoma City (Okla.) ; University of Oklahoma Blacks--Segregation ; Discrimination in housing ; Discrimination in restaurants 4908 Career: Career in Education But was there ever any thought of going some place other than Birmingham, or did you assume and understand on completion of your doctorate that you would return to Miles College and resume your career there? Dr. Arrington summarizes his career as academic dean at Miles, director of the Alabama Center for Higher Education, and work with the Carnegie Foundation. Alabama Center for Higher Education ; Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching ; Ford Foundation ; Pitts, Luscious Birmingham (Ala.) ; Miles College 5400 Career: City Council L: So you were there from ’70 until you were elected mayor in ’79, and there was a moment of political initiation at some point during that stage, when did you first have the thought descended to you of becoming involving in politics and public life? Dr. Arrington talks about getting involved in politics for the first time, running for city council and his first council term. He mentions speaking out against the police and working with the white community. City council members ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 ; Vann, David Birmingham (Ala.) ; City council members 6941 Career: Motivation for Running for Mayor Was there any thought on your part of perhaps running for mayor in 1975 at the end of your first term? Dr. Arrington say that the Benita Carter incident was his motivation for running for mayor. Carter, Benita ; Vann, David Birmingham (Ala.). Mayor 7208 Career: Leaving Miles College (inaudible) but you raised a question my leaving Miles College, what happened at Miles College was there was a search for a new president and John Monroe, who had come to Miles from Harvard some years earlier, led an effort to get me back as president and apparently had spoken with the bishop, who was the chairman of the board. Dr. Arrington talks about leaving Miles and how Dr. Clyde Williams became its president. Monroe, John ; Williams, Clyde Miles College 7549 Career: City Council Second Term Could we talk a little about the second term, your second term as a council member was 1975 to 1979, David Vann was mayor during that period of time, you mentioned that your first meeting with David had occurred during the 1971 campaign when he had forwarded some campaign funds to you, you had not met him during the period in ’63 when he was very much involved with the negotiations between black and white leaders? Dr. Arrington talks about his second term on the city council focusing especially on David Vann as mayor. He mentions some about his run for mayor against Vann's reelection campaign. Boutwell, Albert Burton, 1904-1978 ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; United States. Voting Rights Act of 1965 Vann, David 8599 Mayor: Campaign L: Two questions before we move into your campaign and first term, prior then to the Benita Carter tragedy in the summer of ’79, your plan was to finish your second term as council member, leave politics, return to I assume a full-time career somewhere in higher education? Dr. Arrington talks about running for Mayor in 1979 and winning. He mentions financing his campaign and working with businesses in Birmingham. He also mentions some of his campaign platform. 1979 ; Bradford, Tom ; Campaign funds ; Carter, Benita ; Farley, Joe ; Gaston, A. G. (Arthur George), 1892- ; Harbert, Raymond ; Thompson, Hall ; Vann, David ; Woods, John Campaign promises ; Political campaigns 10020 Mayor: Winning First Term Dr. Arrington talks about transitioning into office and some of the issues he faced including selecting a chief of police. Davis, Willie ; Myers, Bill Birmingham (Ala.). Mayor 10946 Mayor: Police L: (inaudible) difficult to in a reasonable period of time covered 20 years as mayor, but I think there are some areas that we could group questions and thoughts on your part and I guess one of them would be to return the topic of police and you’ve talked about the professionalization of the police department a long-term process that began during your first term as council. I recall that the issue of the shooting policy was one of the kinds of important police issues that came up early in your tenure as mayor, I wonder if you could speak to that and other things related to policing that reflected your commitment to the professionalization of the department. Dr. Arrington talks about reforming the Birmingham police department. Deustch, Arthur ; Fraternal order of police ; Myers, Bill ; Police Reform Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 11462 Mayor: Affirmative Action Related to the police department and all other department but certainly more extensively were very basically was the question of affirmative action in the consent decree. At the time you entered office the question of discriminatory hiring practices was before the courts? Dr. Arrington talks about affirmative action, accusations of reverse discrimination, and his progress in diversifying the Birmingham workforce. Reverse discrimination ; United States. Supreme Court Affirmative action programs ; Affirmative action programs--United States 12366 Mayor: The Birmingham Plan I don’t know how successful it has been, but we reached a point where they started working with us rather than against us. We got the Birmingham plan put in place and the Birmingham plan, in my opinion ; it’s a significant accomplishment. I don’t think it was a productive as it could have been, because quite frankly I don’t think we ever got really the mentality among a (inaudible) minority contractors, they were going to get a set aside, but with all those rough balance, one very pleasing moment for me was one day when six young black contractors came in my office. Dr. Arrington talk about implementing the Birmingham plan and attempting to help minority contractors, and small businesses. The Birmingham Plan African American business enterprises ; Economic development 13269 Mayor: Downtown Revitalization One of the projects that David Vann had begun was the commitment to downtown Birmingham the revitalization of downtown, would you comment on your views of downtown and what your administrations did over the years on behalf of downtown Birmingham and your assessment of success or failure? Dr. Arrington talks about attempting to revitalize downtown Birmingham. He mentions projects like the McWane Center, dealings with Sloss, plans for improvements that did not happen, plans for parks and issues with recruiting business. He also talks about improvements to the 280 area including the Summit. His discussion on annexations includes David Vann's time as mayor. Annexation (Municipal government) ; downtown revitalization ; McWane Center ; Pizitz ; Sloss Furnace Company ; United States Highway 280 (Ala. and Ga.) Birmingham (Ala.) Oral History Dr. Richard Arrington Jr. discusses growing up in Birmingham, his educational career, his time on the city council and his early years as Mayor. This interview is continued on July 24, 2001. LEMONTE: This interview with Dr. Richard Arrington, Jr ; it is conducted on July 23-24, 2001. I am Edward S. LeMonte, currently Vice President for Administration and Howell Heflin Professor of American Government at Birmingham-Southern College. I would say at the outset of the interview it was my personal and professional privilege to serve as a staff member during the first two of Dr. Arrington&#039 ; s five terms as mayor from 1979 to 1987. And during much of that time, served as his senior staff person or executive secretary. The purpose of the interview is to provide a comprehensive introduction to the life of Richard Arrington, to his public service career and also to his reflections on the Civil Rights experience, particularly at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. The interview is part of the Oral History program of the institute. Dr. Arrington, let&#039 ; s begin at the beginning, would you talk about you early childhood, family experiences, and your growing up years? ARRINGTON: Of course, yes. Life leads on some interesting journeys and that&#039 ; s what life has led me. I was born in what is called the Black Belt area of Alabama, a place called Livingston, Alabama, which is located in Sumter County and my father and mother were sharecropping farmers down in Livingston, Alabama. My first four years were spent there in Livingston, Alabama on the farm with my parents. My dad eventually decided to join the great movement to Birmingham to work in the steel mills. That of course, was what many of the people who were on the farms were doing at that time. They were leaving the farms because of economic conditions changing and new opportunities opening up in places like Birmingham with its vast steel mills. And so when I was four or five years old, my dad moved us to Birmingham ; and he went to work in the steel mill, so I grew up in Birmingham, out in the suburb called Fairfield. I was taught in the Fairfield Public Schools System and even did my first four years in college in Fairfield and I earned my Bachelors Degree at Miles College, which of course is in the Fairfield area. I never left Birmingham in fact until after I had finished college. It was an interesting experience growing up in that time. Race was of course a dominant factor in daily lives and shaped everything from social activities to education, and schools were all of course, segregated. There were black schools, I attended Robinson Elementary School and then from there to Fairfield Industrial High School. These were the schools for black students in the city of Fairfield. The time during that particular period, again, there was a straight emphasis on separation of the races, so I grew up not knowing very much. I had very few contacts with whites ; the law of the land in the south at that particular time was of course, racial segregation. Parks were segregated, there were very few facilities, in fact, and quite frankly the system at that time treated blacks really as second-class citizens. We lived in separate neighborhoods but there were usually the neighborhoods where there were few of public services where the streets were usually unpaved and what have you. But that was an interesting thing about it and because of the segregation laws, it kept all blacks, corralled all blacks, few which were professionals or they were teachers, doctors and lawyers. They lived in the same neighborhoods with those like my father, like where we lived, people were blue-collar workers. And so in one regard I see a positive in that ; we were sort of united frankly by race and by racial laws and so I knew everyone in the community, I knew the teachers who lived in the community, those who had the opportunities to get education. I knew at least one or two physicians who lived in the community, I knew the professionals. And so one result of segregation of blacks in the community was the fact that they had to all live in the same community and that provided some opportunity for some degree of interaction. LEMONTE: Were there any particular individuals who you would call as role models during your youth in that segregated community that you grew up in? ARRINGTON: Yes, I recall quite well. In my early days, I thought I wanted to be a physician because of Dr. W.L. Drake was &#039 ; The Black Physician&#039 ; in the city of Fairfield. He handled most of the clients there in the city, and I remember Grover P. Parham, who was also a black businessman who was actually a pharmacist, but highly respected and ran several businesses here in Birmingham. There were a few others, really this was in Fairfield mainly. There were a few other blacks ; there were some teachers that I got to know fairly well who lived in the community. They were all in one sense or another sort of role models that I think inspired a lot of us. And when I think about them in conjunction with the constant counseling of my parents about what I should do in life, which was go to college. See my parents had never gone to college, my dad had only gone to the third grade in a one-room country school and all the grades were in the same room. My mom had come from a family down in Sumter County where there was some degree of education among most of the members of the family ; for example, her uncle Dr. Jones, was sort of the first presidents of Selma University. And then in her family, most of her uncles attended school or went to Tuskegee. They didn&#039 ; t graduate, but they went there for a while. And then they came back and they taught there. And my maternal great-grandmother was also a teacher. So on the Bell side of the family, which was my mother&#039 ; s maiden name was a, Bell. On the Bell side of the family, we had a great emphasis placed on education and also it&#039 ; s interesting that many people. Particularly blacks coming out of Sumter County, who knew the Bells, always thought we were really well to do. I think it was a combination of the fact that most of the Bells were into education. They were teaching in some of the schools there and then gone to college. Of course that&#039 ; s a privilege viewed by blacks whom were rural people working mainly on the farms. My great-great granddad lived on a huge plantation and they called it &#039 ; The Bell Place&#039 ; . I cannot remember how many acres there were, but even to this day I meet people of my generation here in Birmingham, who are from that area and had grown up there, maybe a little bit older, but they still think that my family owned this so-called Bell Place. The truth is that my great-great granddad was three years old when slavery was abolished and continued to live there on that plantation which was owned by Ms. Lula Degraffenreid. When Mrs. Degraffenreid moved out, she let my great- great grandfather continue to live there. So he married and all of his children were born there. Each one built a house somewhere on that huge plantation. So the Bells lived there and people always thought we all did well, we owned not a square inch out there. Of course today, American Can Company owns all of that land, but it&#039 ; s timberland but that was where I got my start. I got to Birmingham, there were things, I told people many times I have never seen, because I had never left Livingston and I&#039 ; m only four or five years old. I had gone to the train depot a couple of times to see some relatives off. I come to Birmingham and get there at night and one of my first experiences is hearing a streetcar and not being able to see and my mom (inaudible) thought it was a train and having her tell me it&#039 ; s a streetcar. And I could hardly wait to get up the next morning to get out on the porch to see where the streetcar was. And because we lived there in an area in Fairfield called Vinesville, right where the city of Birmingham boundaries meet the city of Fairfield. And from my home, I could see what was called a #7 streetcar that came down and turned around and went back to Birmingham and I could the #14 street car that came through there and went on down to Bessemer and that was very interesting. It was interesting for me moving to Birmingham as a young man to see electric lights up. I can&#039 ; t recall having ever seen them anywhere in Livingston. But I knew we lived in a home on the farm where there were no electric lights. Everything, all the lights at night came from kerosene lamps. And so I got to see electric lights for the first time and each one of our three-room house my dad leased. Then we got the single electric light bulb on a cord and we kept on by hand, this is a new experience. I&#039 ; m seeing this new technology, new forms of energy, all very exciting. But my playmates, my friends all were of course people in the neighborhood, and they were black. Even then our newspaper carrying days, I was a paper carrier early ; I was ten years old, and I got me a paper route. I had a few contacts with young whites that were also paper carriers, but we had some interesting experiences, for example, my cousin and I would like to stop in the park down in the city of Fairfield and watch the baseball games. Well it was a park for whites, but we would stop on the (inaudible) put our papers down and watch the game. Occasionally there in the park, along with some of the white paper carriers, down in the field by the station where we picked up our newspapers, we would engage one another in football games, the black playing the whites and we had great fun, but the police would come along and they would really scold us. And they really scold the blacks and that was all out of place, the blacks and whites would play together and that&#039 ; s race-conscious people were and that was the kind of situation I grew up in. The whites I got to know, well those I worked for, once I got to be a senior and started working at a drycleaners, called Howard&#039 ; s drycleaners, which incidentally still here in Birmingham down on 3rd ave and ninth street. And I worked there in my starting the end of my senior year in high school and I worked there for four years, almost until I graduated from college. When I finished Industrial High School, where I had studied dry-cleaning, because it was an industrial school and it offered us, what had called the straight academic program for those students who intended to go on the college. But most of the students of course were studying some trade, tailoring, upholstery, shoe repair, auto mechanics and things of that sort. And so a friend of mine influenced me, a good buddy in high school named Thomas Hardin. At the end of the 10th grade you had to make a choice of which program you wanted to study, whether you wanted to take a trade and which trade you would study. Or you were going to go to college. Now I knew all the time that I was going to college. I knew it because my parents had always said we&#039 ; d have to go to college. And it was interesting that they would say that because we had no means, no money or anything to send people to school. My dad just worked in the steel mills and when he was not working at the plant, he was a brick mason and carpenter and he built homes. Many of them still stand out in Fairfield today. But we didn&#039 ; t have an abundance of money ; we lived from paycheck to paycheck. I knew I was going to college, yet this friend influenced me. When this election time came up and having no counselors at the high school that I was attending, although we had an outstanding educator, this principal named EJ Oliver. I ended up studying dry cleaning, which was not my first choice. What happened is Dr. Oliver would call all the students into the auditorium and we would tell him what areas we wanted to study and we would get assigned to those particular areas. Many of us wanted to study some trades and more than a trade could accommodate the teacher. There was a single teacher in each trade, so I wanted to study tailoring. Thomas and I chose tailoring and there were so many people wanted to study tailoring. What Dr. Oliver did was that he had all of us to put our names on a piece of paper and fold it up and drop it in a hat. And so 15 people who were going to be able to study tailoring were the names drawn out. I was unlucky, I didn&#039 ; t get tailoring and that&#039 ; s whet Thomas and I had to choose another trade. And so he said, &quot ; Let&#039 ; s go into dry cleaning.&quot ; So I studied dry-cleaning my junior and senior years in high school. I studied dry- cleaning and basically cleaned clothes for friends of others and ours. I had only two people, although I had done fairly well academically in school, I was an honor student and obviously should have gone in the straight academic program. That would have meant more algebra and trigonometry and would have meant more than chemistry and things of that sort. But only two, maybe three people out of a class of hundred and something students who graduated went into straight academic programs of study. But anyway, from there, my friend and I graduated and we ended up to Miles College the next year as freshmen. And as I said I worked at Howard Cleaners after having done one summer of just making brick mortar for brick mason at $0.50 an hour, which was my first job. So that sort of a sketch of how I grew up--. LEMONTE: You make it clear that your parents expected you to go to college ; I take it that your family was a close-knit family. Your parents had great influence over you and what you did. Could you say a little more about your family, your siblings and what have become family members? ARRINGTON: Absolutely, one of my blessings was that we had a close-knit family. My dad married my mom when she was just 18 years old and he was in his early 20s. He was dating my mom and they were talking about marriage, my mother was 17 when her mother died of a heart attack. And of course she and her siblings--she had a brother who was the youngest of the three, her sister in between, and my mother was the oldest of the three children. So her father had brought them up and then he was killed in an accident. He was working cutting timber and somehow was killed when a large log falling on him and killed him. So shortly thereafter, my father married my mother and moved into her home and in essence raised three kids, his wife, his sister-in-law and his young brother-in-law. So he actually kept all three of them and they lived with us, or up until I left home that they continued to live with us (inaudible). But it was a close-knit family and even when we moved into the city out in Fairfield, my aunt and my uncle still lived with us, although we had just a three- room house, a living room, a bedroom, a kitchen, and a toilet eventually on the back porch, initially dry toilets out in the backyard. My uncle Bill eventually moved next door, but the family remained a close- knit family. My dad was sort of the patriarch and oversaw the entire family. And when my mom did a lot of the work of seeing my brother--I have a brother who is two and half years younger than I am. He is in high education and lives in South Carolina. But my mother had the responsibilities of seeing that we did our schoolwork or getting us enrolled in school, all those kinds of things. I can recall coming home almost daily during the week sitting on the front porch in what we call a glider. My mom taking me over the lessons, with a switch in there by her side. And with my reading or my doing the spelling and sometimes I see the kids out there running and playing, I wanted to go. Occasionally my mom is picking up the switch-hitting me because folks playing distracted me. I almost remember some of the visits made by teachers. I had a--I got up to eight or ninth grade, I had this pretty teacher, named Angelina Raye. She had a sister who taught there in the system named Mattie Raye and they were both very attractive ladies, even to the kids whose in the eight grade. But I came under Angelina Raye, who was from an area called Hooper City. I came under Angelina Raye, in her English class and I tell people to this day that every bit of the grammar I know, I learned that under her. I had never heard about conjugating a verb until I got into her class. She was an outstanding teacher and I paid strict attention to her ; she was pretty to watch but I was anxious to learn. I wanted to know and then I wanted her approval, but she would come over, she and her sister, they would do home visits quite often ; they would sit on the front porch and talk with my parents about my brother and me and about well we were doing in school. The interesting part of that story, the reason I mentioned it, is that Angelina Raye later married my brother, who played basketball in high school. My brother&#039 ; s basketball coach, a man whose name was Rice, his last name was Rice ; and of course today his daughter is the security advisor to the president of the United States, George W. Bush. But I told Condoleeza Rice on a number of occasions (inaudible), her mother, of course she remembers that her mother knew me and had talked about me and all of that. So that was interesting, I came under the influence of some good teachers like Mrs. Raye, Mrs. Cook and I got into doing things I really didn&#039 ; t do well, debate team and it was really a good academic experience at Fairfield Industrial High School because EJ Oliver, who some would call a tyrant, but he ran his school and he demanded that there would be emphasis on academic achievement. We completed statewide academic meets every year. In fact the greatest disappointment I had in my entire high school career was that I had never won what&#039 ; s called a ribbon. We would go off to Alabama State University in Montgomery every year, where black high school students from across the state who were considered to be the top students in their classes and during the junior and senior years would compete in certain areas like Government, History, and English, or Literature and Writing. And of course the great honor, the thing that made everybody feel good at Fairfield is that you got a lot of recognition for your academic achievement. There was a large glass showcase and if you won a ribbon, you brought it back, kept your name on it, it was in the showcase. And all the kids who over years and years at the school had won ribbons, they were all there. So it was a great honor and of course I went off and competed in that twice and didn&#039 ; t win a ribbon either, you win first, second, third place ribbon. And that was my great appointment and I never won a ribbon in that. LEMONTE: Was that due in part to your being in the dry cleaning tract--? ARRINGTON: It may have been, I don&#039 ; t know the answer, but it may have been. Another way that Oliver really inspired us is that he had built on the wall, a large bulletin board with a glass door that covered it and he called it the &quot ; The Fairfield Industrial High School Hall of Fame.&quot ; And the first graduate that achieved some distinction in the field would go into the hall of fame ; for example, the first Fairfield Industrial High School graduate who became a lawyer. And the first one who became a pharmacist and the first one who became a doctor and so forth and so on. And it&#039 ; s amazing how that inspired people become everybody wanted to be in the Fairfield Industrial Hall of Fame and I left Fairfield, hoping one day get into Industrial Hall of Fame. And of course I was able to get in there, I was the first Fairfield Industrial High graduate to get a PhD degree in Zoology and so I was brought back some years later got inducted into the hall of fame. And here I am now of course and adult now, gone all the way through school and I&#039 ; m about 30 or 31 years old, Doctorate Degree, but I was just as proud going back the Fairfield Industrial High and be inducted to that hall of fame. It made me prouder and that time when I walked across that stage to get my Doctoral degree. LEMONTE: Did Dr. Oliver sort of push you personally toward academics? ARRINGTON: No he didn&#039 ; t push me-- LEMONTE: Particularly. ARRINGTON: He did do a lot of recognition to honor students. If you make the honor roll every semester, you were brought--he called names, in the assembly you came up. So he put a lot emphasis on that, he loved sports, but he put a lot of emphasis on academic achievement. While he gave a lot of attention to people like Willie Mayes, who was a couple of years ahead of me in school and was our hero and other athletic standouts ; He also did great emphasis to people who achieved academically and I sort of ranked always in like the top 10 of the class, I was probably number 3 or 4 in my graduating class. So I got recognition that way and then I was a thespian, I didn&#039 ; t have any acting abilities, but I was a thespian working on properties and I said I was in the debate club and did have to debate and compete with our school against other schools in debating. And all of these things believe it not turned out to be very, very constructive activities and good activities for my development. But I still grew up in essentially a black culture and a segregated culture, didn&#039 ; t think a lot about it at the time, quite frankly, just accepted it as a way of life. My mother worried especially about what would happen to us in relationship with police because the police were the people who kept everybody in line, in particularly the black community and the children being (inaudible) she was always worried about what kind of encounter we might have one day with the police. Although my brother and I were well behaved because my mother was a strict disciplinarian and we dared not get in any kind of trouble because we&#039 ; d be in serious, serious trouble at home. My mom would not hesitate to give us whippings for anything we did. It was the same way about school I mean, we had to perform well in school and it was expected of us and we knew we had to do it. And so we learned that at an early age, what the expectations were, and we labored to (inaudible). It wasn&#039 ; t that I was in any way extraordinary in terms of intellectual abilities, it was just hard work. It was that ethic that my family had and you got to get in there and do it. And it carried my right on through college, as I said, I went to college and I paid my tuition, there were no student loans or anything like that at that time. So I paid my tuition by working year round at Howard Cleaners. Worked there every afternoon at 4:00, I droved the delivery truck to about 10 or 12 branches to take the dry-cleaning out to the different branches. I was at the cleaners&#039 ; (inaudible), I worked there on Saturdays and sometimes Sundays and then all summer long. I worked every job, I learned every job at the cleaners from firing the boiler so when the boiler man was on vacation during the summer, I relieved him and I did that and I ran the huge laundry and the man in charge of the laundry was off work and began in charge of the dry cleaning--I learned every job there, even down to the dressing machine, the area that many machines that were there. So that too was a learning experience, I became almost like a plumber, I knew how to do everything, but that&#039 ; s how I worked my way through college. LEMONTE: You mentioned your mother&#039 ; s concern in particular about police encounters or other incidents. Were there any terrible incidents in your childhood or times when living in a segregated society was very punishing and you knew at the time? ARRINGTON: It very punishing in a sense of that and fearful, there was great fear about what happened to blacks who according to whites or in the view of whites, stepped out of line or stepped across the line. We were fortunate that we&#039 ; ve never had any bitter experience in our family, but we knew of people all around us who were beaten by police officers. Some were killed, whenever there was a rape of a white female somewhere in the Birmingham area, there was always some black guilty party and may not have been, I don&#039 ; t know, but some black would pay the price and that was always a front page story, if a black was accused of having raped a white female, it was always front page but it always sent some fear throughout the black community until somebody had been apprehended and charged with that. I grew up at a time, still in the rural areas, a person or so charged, probably never got, many times never got to trial. A mob would come they would be lynched and taken that person out of jail and it&#039 ; s still happening, even when I was in college it&#039 ; s still happening and not that much in Alabama then as it was still happening in Mississippi and I still recall some of the victims, Parker and people like that. And because my mother taught me to love reading and so forth and I read everything, including the newspaper. But the people across the street did and I borrowed that newspaper everyday, just to read. And my dad loved to read, he didn&#039 ; t read well, but he read the paper everyday, got the paper and he would read it and (inaudible) his words and stuff. So I grew up reading the paper daily and I was also aware of what went on and what I seen from reading the newspapers. So there was a kind of fear, but luckily we never had a direct bitter experience. I had officers stop me and say negative things, but never got to any physical encounter thank God. LEMONTE: You&#039 ; ve talked about the importance of family, of high school and of the community that you grew up in that produced role models. Were there other institutions or organizations that were important in your early years, church, and civic groups, anything along those lines? ARRINGTON: Well the church certainly was a major institution. I remember joining the church that I&#039 ; m now a member of, when I was six years old, being baptized a few years later and it&#039 ; s a church I grew up in and attended regularly, worked in the Sunday school, was in the vacation Bible school. My parents were very much involved especially my mother and working in auxiliaries in the church. My mom sang in the choir and worked with the vacation bible school. And of course we were always in attendance, so the church had a significant influence in shaping our lives and helping us to shape the values so forth that we had. It was a major institution and of course I feel the black church has been one of the major institutions for blacks in this country. Much of the black leadership has come out of the black churches, colleges ; black churches started many of the black colleges. And so, yes, a lot of my values were shaped by church. LEMONTE: And you are a member of the church that you joined when you were six? ARRINGTON: It&#039 ; s the only church I&#039 ; ve ever-- LEMONTE: And what church is that? ARRINGTON: Conley Bethel Primitive Baptist Church in Fairfield. I&#039 ; m what you call a foot washing primitive Baptist. We wash feet on communion Sundays and so it&#039 ; an important institution. I ended up going to college right here and actually two blocks from where I grew up at Miles College. And I go to college, I start as a freshman, I have no idea what I&#039 ; m going to study, but as I said I knew I was going. So I enrolled, I take the admission they had, what they call placement tests at that time in math and English and really think I did well and all her students from my high school all did well on those. They were not standardized test ; they were test put together by the faculties there, the college at that particular time. But if you didn&#039 ; t pass the test in math, for example, you ended being placed in remedial math class, which you would spend a year but get no college credit. If you didn&#039 ; t pass the English test, you couldn&#039 ; t write the composition to the satisfaction of the teachers, you would end what they called sub-bang, which is remedial English. And so many of the students, in fact there were more students taking remedial math or remedial English in the freshman year and they would take the regular. But I did notice that the students who came out of Fairfield Industrial High School was me and attended Miles College just about everyone of them passed the placement exams did well, which again spoke well of what people were doing. But at Miles college I didn&#039 ; t&#039 ; know what I was going to, but fortunately some good teachers and some who took a special interest in us. And I remember a young teacher named Verdell Martin who taught Psychology and I remember her calling, I had taken a course with her in Psychology and I remember her calling me one day, I just happened to be passing by her office and calling me in and asking me, &quot ; What have you decided to study, you&#039 ; re starting you sophomore year?&quot ; And I was very honest with her and said I just didn&#039 ; t know, she says, &quot ; I think you got a good aptitude for science and I&#039 ; d like for you to go and talk to Mr. Jones.&quot ; That was the Biology teacher, a man named (inaudible) Jones. And so I did and I went over and talked to him and he suggested that I study biology or chemistry and that&#039 ; s why I became biology major. And that was fortunate because he took an interest in his students ; he got a number of us to go into graduate school. I had no idea of what graduate school was. When he first mentioned it to me, have you thought about going to graduate school. I didn&#039 ; t know what graduate school was and he explained and he thought he could help me get into graduate school up at the university of Detroit where he had gotten his masters degree and so he wrote the professor there and I applied there and I was admitted and I was given a teaching fellowship, teaching freshman laboratory classes at the University of Detroit. And that I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m 20 years old and I just graduated from college.&quot ; And I leave Alabama for the first time in my life, I take the greyhound bus and off I go to Detroit and I married by that time too at 20 years. So off we go on the bus to Detroit, I&#039 ; ll never forget it was a tearful moment, I cried, didn&#039 ; t want to leave home. But it was also a traumatic experience for me at the university. People were wonderful there, at the university where there was maybe a dozen of blacks in the entire university, it was 12,000 students over in the biology department where I was, I was, at the time, the only black student enrolled in that graduate school. And while nobody else seemed to have thought anything about that, it stayed on my mind because I had come out of Alabama, out of a rigidly segregated society. Whereas I said, I had no social interaction with whites excepts occasion football game or baseball thing, might have happened on the streets or in the park, we&#039 ; d sneak and did a lot, the police didn&#039 ; t come along. So I really had no real contacts and now here I am in a setting where everybody in there in the graduate school where I am is white and no blacks. And the faculty and the students were wonderful, but even the horse played with the guys, but to me it felt strange, on weekends, hanging around as a graduated student, labs and so forth and guys get the wrestling and so forth and some white guy comes over and grabs me and started wrestling. You know, you didn&#039 ; t do that in Alabama and it was a strange feeling. And sitting in the class rooms and the professor was lecturing decided to question people as he talked and I didn&#039 ; t care how many times he called on my, every time he called on me, I just had to know the answer and when I didn&#039 ; t I felt so bad, I thought I had let the whole black down, just shows you what racial segregation had done. But I think it was at the University of Detroit that I began to get some sense of self and identity and it turned out to be a very good experience. My second year there, my last year in which I received my degree, I did have another black student, a young woman named Sue Chatman came in as a graduate student and she eventually went on the dental school, in fact she practices today. She&#039 ; s a dentist in Atlanta, so it was a good experience and of course from having gone to, I got a masters degree and came back to teach, but my professors had also recommended that I go on to work for a doctorate and so forth. All of this turned out to be good experiences. LEMONTE: You received your master&#039 ; s degree in what year? ARRINGTON: &#039 ; 57 and I graduated from Miles in 1955 and then in &#039 ; 57 I received my master degree. I returned to Miles College and began teaching some biology at Miles College and studied--I would go off to graduate school during the summer for long time and then around 1960 or &#039 ; 61 I left as national science foundation fellow and went to Washington University for a year to do studying and research and then to the medical at the state university of Iowa to do research in radiation biology. Came back to the college and taught for a year after that and then was accepted at two or three schools for a doctoral program and chose to go out to the University of Oklahoma. I really wanted to go, ever since I had gotten my master&#039 ; s, I had wanted to go to the university of Illinois to study zoology under a professor named Kudo, Dr. Kudo was one of the top people in his field. In fact, I had done my master&#039 ; s (inaudible) a small problem dealing with small project that was related to the work that he was doing. But I was never accepted, I applied and they never accepted me. I was accepted to the University of Connecticut and I was accepted at the University of Southern Illinois and I was accepted at the University of Oklahoma. Out of the four schools, there was one other school that I applied to. So three of those schools accepted me and I chose to go to Oklahoma to work with a professor there in invertebrate zoology and we took off and went to Oklahoma. LEMONTE: So your career then prior to going to Oklahoma really was focusing you on academics, on being a researcher and more particularly I guess a teacher at Miles? ARRINGTON: My interest was teaching, I love teaching, I was secondly doing some research, but teaching at a school like Miles undergraduate institution, there was no real emphasis for me to do real research. You taught three classes a term and I enjoyed and that&#039 ; s what I did. But of course whenever I went to graduate school, whether it was summer or what have you, I&#039 ; d have to do research and if I hoped to achieved, ever get a doctorate degree of course I had to show that I had some ability to do a research, do some research which at least had to be at a level (inaudible) contributed something to the field. And so I kept my fingers in research areas by going to school every summer, I was very fortunate also that during that time, the federal government began to pump a lot of money into sciences. For example, when sputnik, when the Russians put the first space object into space called sputnik, out government responded by pumping a lot of money especially into the sciences to begin training people. To upgrade teachers who were teaching science. That, I was very fortunate, so I applied every summer and went away in some sort of program where we were getting graduate training. So again it was just luck as things came along. Things that I would have been able to, I was making $390 per month at Miles College teaching, had a family and there wasn&#039 ; t much I could save. You couldn&#039 ; t save any money, but I was able to go to graduate school every summer, because there were plenty of opportunities available through the national science foundation, but the science and math teachers and the timing was just right. LEMONTE: Were there any thoughts at all at this point in your career about public service, politics, anything other than higher education? ARRINGTON: No, I had thought of nothing except being a college teacher. There were no role models at that time in politics for me or for blacks because blacks did not have the vote except for a very small number. Blacks were essentially prohibited from voting in Alabama or they limited the number, even people who held a vast professional degrees, doctors, other doctorate degree, often times were not permitted to vote in Alabama. You went down to the board of registrars ; there were three people on the board of registrars in this county in Alabama. And you had to pass a test, an examination, whatever decided, usually in some counties it was written, but usually just answer the questions from the board of registrars. And that registrar was so determined whether or not you were qualified to vote. And the questions asked, often times were not very relevant to voting, but they would ask you things about the constitution, ask you a lot of things about Alabama, sometimes they would ask you things were actually just silly questions, telling you that you weren&#039 ; t gonna be allowed to register to vote. And I assumed that they had a quota that they worked by for the number of blacks they would put on the voting roll. I&#039 ; ve told the story many a times that I graduate from Miles, I&#039 ; m 20 years, you can&#039 ; t vote until you&#039 ; re 21. I go off to Detroit and because in the black community there was always a push through a (inaudible). Every black community had civic leagues at that time. Today you would talk about neighborhood association, but then we talk about civic leagues. And every black community that I knew of had civic leagues working. And one of their major responsibilities and challenges was to get blacks registered to vote. And so what they would do and act, I remember this clearly, is that they circulate it throughout the black community a legal size sheet of paper with typed questions on it, both sides, that we studied when we&#039 ; re old enough to register to vote, you studied those questions. And people in the black community studied those questions. But (inaudible) the questions and the answer to the question, we would study those in preparation for going down to the board of registrars. And of course, as I said, &quot ; You&#039 ; d go down and you really had the (inaudible) of the registrar.&quot ; I still remember some of those questions, like you know, which county in Alabama has two courthouses, so things of that sort. But people worked awfully hard I mean because the people in the civic league sort of went to house to house trying to encourage blacks to register to vote. And all during my growing up there at Fairfield, I saw this. So I grew up in a family and my dad was never registered to vote until I was in adulthood. But I grew up in a family where there was cautiousness about it. And so I wanted to register to vote, I&#039 ; ve always wanted to, turned 21, my first semester in graduate school. Came home for Christmas, the first thing I wanted to do was go down the Jefferson County Courthouse in Birmingham and register to vote. So I went down to register to vote and this dear lady who was a registrar, sitting, it was white lady, she began talking with me, asking me about my background, in fact I was school. All of these things and of course trying to be as polite as I can be. But feeling great anxiety, waiting for her to start asking me all these questions, which I have been studying and I assumed I know the answer. I got me a bachelor&#039 ; s degree and I know the answer to all these questions. And she surprises me, she&#039 ; s asking me how are you doing in school and then she says, &quot ; Raise your right hand.&quot ; She never asked me a single question. And there I was just a nervous wreck, wondering if I passed (laughs). But it was interesting, that&#039 ; s the way things were at that particular time and it&#039 ; s just interesting how things happened in your life, how people come into your life, how you happen to some places sometimes. My coming back to Miles College after I had become a (inaudible). My work as a research fellow, brought in contact with Luscious Pitts. Luscious Pitts became president while I was away and contacted me about coming back to teach at Miles College. And of course I fell under the influence of Luscious Pitts and even after I got my doctorate, he talked me into coming back to Miles College. I think I came back to Miles, I believe Luscious paid me $10,000 or $12,000 per year (inaudible). When I came back and began working there. But Luscious was very much involved in the community as a whole and encourage the students to get involved in the community. And so here I am, I had not thought about politics, or public service because I started to say earlier, there were no role models, there were no black elected officials. The only one I could think of back during that time was Adam Clayton Powell, who was a congressman from Harlem. But other than that, there were none that I knew of. And so having no role models, most of us, there may have been some extraordinary black young men and women who were thinking about a career in public service of some sort. Running for office, but most of us, I don&#039 ; t think ever even thought about that. In fact, I couldn&#039 ; t imagine that in Alabama there would be black elected officials period. And I really thought about that even after I became mayor. Somebody had told me that was going to happen back a few years ago, I would have said, you don&#039 ; t know what you&#039 ; re talking about, it&#039 ; s not gonna happen. LEMONTE: During the time you were in college, the Brown vs. Board of Education decision was handed down by the supreme court and then I guess during your graduate school years, the Civil Rights Movement, perhaps peeked and had its greatest impact. How did those developments in the civil rights arena either affect your life or shaped your thinking during that period of time? ARRINGTON: Well, I was always very much aware of what was going on in the whole struggle for human rights, us being raised in Birmingham. I think it was in part because of family in part because I was (inaudible) and I knew that I always had an interest in civic affairs and because of the work of the civic league and early on I had joined the Fairfield civic league and attended meetings of the Civic league. So I had that awareness about what was happening. When the school desegregation of &#039 ; 54 decision came down, I was just watching what had happened seeing a couple of years after that, the efforts to desegregation schools here in Birmingham and the problems that were created and seeing city government fight against all forms of integration, parks closed eventually and things of that sort to try to avoid desegregation. And I think that lifted the awareness of the black communities. I think that the black communities as a whole were sort of caught up in a struggle. Now for achieving some equal treatment under the constitution, especially the night of the US supreme court in &#039 ; 54 and had gotten rid of separate but equal and that was longer the law of the land. I&#039 ; m not sure we thought about it that way, but the push was on throughout the black community and eventually through civic leagues and through the black church. We were being encouraged. Encouraged to integrating, desegregate the schools, do this. So that push was a constant push, I remember I had to make a decision when I came back in &#039 ; 57 about my kids going to schools. Whether or not to take them to the predominately white school in Fairfield, I remember after some of the--taking them there. So that was interesting, but Luscious Pitts, when I came back and I was working at Miles, Luscious Pitts was very much involved and a lot of students were involved in movements for equal treatment of blacks here in Birmingham. LEMONTE: Let me just go back, you mentioned your kids taking--did I understand that they did go to--? ARRINGTON: We took them to predominately white schools--. LEMONTE: And they were accepted? ARRINGTON: Yes, yes they accepted them--. LEMONTE: And that was in what year? ARRINGTON: That was in &#039 ; 57. LEMONTE: So the Fairfield Public Schools desegregated six years before Birmingham did? ARRINGTON: Probably so, I came back in &#039 ; 57, &#039 ; 57 I returned to Miles College to teach and enrolled my son in the--what had been a predominately white school there in Fairfield. LEMONTE: With no incidents or particular problem--? ARRINGTON: No problem, maybe a dozen blacks in the school. LEMONTE: Do you have the sense that Fairfield municipal government was in a way more progressive than the Birmingham city--? ARRINGTON: Well, no, let me get my time frame right. Your question brings that back to mind, I have to go back and think about my son and the age. You&#039 ; re right because my kid was born in &#039 ; 56 or &#039 ; 57 and so that would not have been school age, four or five years later. So it was at that time when he turned 6 years old at that time. So it was probably in &#039 ; 60. LEMONTE: And do you recall what year Dr. Pitts became the president at Miles? ARRINGTON: 1961, I was at Washington University when he was chosen president. In fact, I first met him when I was a graduate student at Washington University and he came to St. Louis to speak to a group of Mileans, I attended that sessions and that was when I first met Luscious Pitts. LEMONTE: So you taught at Miles and then went off and earned your PhD ultimately--? ARRINGTON: Yes. LEMONTE: And that was in what year? ARRINGTON: &#039 ; 66. After going back and forth to graduate school and Miles to teach, in &#039 ; 63 I loaded up my--I applied to each school, was accepted at the University of Oklahoma. Was given a teaching fellowship there, which covered tuition there, small staffing and I was also--because even when I working on my masters, the state of Alabama was providing some money because the state had a program where blacks who went out of state to graduate school, the state would pay their difference between the cost you had to pay at the school what you would pay to Alabama, and that was their way of keeping the schools segregated. So if you wanted to pursue graduate study in a field that was not offered, say at Tuskegee Institute, then you applied to the department of education and you got admitted at some other school. You applied to the department of education and we got a check each quarter. You just simply had the business officer at the school you attend to verify what your tuition was and you sent it to the state department of education and they would calculate what the differences was and the expense and send you a check for the difference. So all while I was in school, I already took my doctorate program, which I got a doctorate in &#039 ; 66. I was getting that stipend from the state. And that plus my teaching fellowship stipend and they would support my family and attend school. LEMONTE: So you left beginning your doctoral work in &#039 ; 63, were you here during the summer of &#039 ; 63 when the demonstrations were occurring? ARRINGTON: Yes, I left in August of &#039 ; 63, I had been accepted ; I had taught summer school at Miles College. I had been involved and sort of indirectly in some of what was going on because Luscious Pitts had had me doing things like attending meetings with him, taking notes and minutes, writing up some statements that Dr. James Montgomery who was (inaudible) during the news conference or Abraham Woods or Calvin Woods and I often times wrote those up, but Luscious assigned me that responsibility. I often times wrote those up but Luscious assigned me that responsibility. I attended the meetings of some of the black leaders in the black community, like AG Gaston and the Peter Halls and the people who were considered to be spokespersons for the black community. I kept all the minutes, I was in the meetings when--I wrote up document listing the grievances of the black community which went down to the city fathers at some time. I think we&#039 ; re now in the 60s probably and that document eventually led to decision by the white leadership to form a biracial committee. I was at the meetings when the black leaders at AG Gaston&#039 ; s office dealt with the issue of who would sit on the committee to represent the black community. It was a big decision, it was a important time, but they did--I really think the initiative was taken by white leaders who suggested to the black group because we had submitted this list of grievances and all. And eventually they suggested that there be a biracial committee. And they named the members of the committee, both black and white. And I told the story many times that how black leaders resented that. And said Jim Montgomery who was physician and Calvin Woods was a preacher to meet with some of the white leaders to tell them that. The time had passed for whites telling blacks who the leaders were, they were going to chose their own leaders. And the white group was very apologetic about that and of course-- LEMONTE: LeMonte is speaking (in regards to pausing for a moment) ARRINGTON: Well I was telling a story that I&#039 ; d like to tell about that particular meeting where at AG Gaston&#039 ; s office. The (inaudible) Calvin Woods and Jim Montgomery had come back from meeting with some of the leaders of the white group and had informed them that we were going to chose our own leaders. And the white group was very apologetic, so now it&#039 ; s left up to us because they apologized and they asked us to please inform them of the names of our representatives on that committee, there were the be 10 people named. And it was really sort of humorous to me because we got into the discussion about who the leaders would be or who the representatives would be and just to make this story short, the group ended up naming the same people. Out of the ten people, nine of them were the same people that whites had named. And the only reason the 10th person wasn&#039 ; t named, the whites had included the name of a black female who nobody knew. Nobody knew who she was and of course she wasn&#039 ; t in the meeting, but all the other nine that had been named were in the meeting that we were in. And everybody was lobbying of course to get on them ; nobody wanted to offend anybody by leaving them out. So they put the same nine on there--nine of the ten that the whites had named, that left really only the 10th open. And Peter Hall, who was an attorney at the time, later was to become the first black municipal judge in the city of Birmingham, but who had refused to sign that grievance petition that we sent down, of course I remembered in the meeting when I had presented it for that review. He said that he couldn&#039 ; t sign it because I had written something in there about the injustices that we suffered in the courts and he said that he was an attorney and an officer of the court, so he couldn&#039 ; t sign the petition. But when we were ready to get the committee, he was there lobbying for that 10th spot, he thought he should be in there and he got it. And so I always tell that story because to me even that morning I found it very humorous, I can hardly keep from laughing out when they named all the members of the committee because it was exactly the committee except for one person that the white members had named in the first place. LEMONTE: And Dr. Pitts was one of the ten--? ARRINGTON: Yeah. So it was an interesting experience for me, I&#039 ; m just (inaudible). In &#039 ; 63 I am ready to go out and work full-time on that doctorate rather than trying to work during the summer and I taught through summer school and packed my family in my old white ford, had a new baby at that time, and we headed off to the University of Oklahoma. When I left Birmingham, it was right at the height of a lot of the unrest, George Wallace had become the governor, he was stumping the state giving fiery segregationist speeches, he had earlier made his inaugural address where he had declared segregation now and forever and what have you and challenged the federal government by saying he had tossed the gauntlet in the dust and so forth. And then he was also moving around places like Tuskegee where ever there were efforts being made to desegregate schools, especially now in rural areas where there were black majority, Macon county for example and so he stood in the schoolhouse door things, in high school he had done the Autherine Lucy thing. And he came to Birmingham, he made very fiery speeches. George Wallace just stirred the part of--he was a demagogue and he did a lot of demagogue. And I think helped set the stage for some of the violent activities that took place in Birmingham and had been ongoing, but stepped up some of the bombings of churches and homes of blacks that occurred. So I left Birmingham in August and went to Oklahoma in late August and of course I had only been there a short while and the tragedy of the bombing of Sixteenth Street Baptist Church occurring. I remember hearing about that on the news first and then reading about it and calling home and talking about it. But I was in Oklahoma in &#039 ; 63 and some eventful times. I&#039 ; ll never forget the day that JFK was assassinated, I was attending a seminar where graduate students from several universities and colleges there in Oklahoma came to the science association to present papers and I was at the meeting. And we had a break just about lunch and walked out in the hall and somebody had a television on and of course they were talking about the president had been assassinated in Dallas. But those were things that sort of stick with you, but I was Oklahoma in &#039 ; 63 for three years and enjoyed it. Took 2 ½ years, taught there the last semester I was there, the whole three-year period and it was basically a good experience. Socially it was, somewhat different. Oklahoma turned out to be not that different from Alabama, they had gone through a lot of litigation already about desegregation and I wasn&#039 ; t aware of that, as I should have been. Before going there, I had been informed by the school that all married housing was full and they had no married housing, but the (inaudible) letter they sent out said that I was University-approved housing in the community and the University of Oklahoma is in a small college town, Norman, which is not very far from Oklahoma City, the largest city and Norman is a very special little college town, it&#039 ; s a fishbowl kind of town. And so I wasn&#039 ; t very aware, for someone who had grown up in Alabama and who had been following the struggle for human rights in the country, my mind was just on school. So I arrived there that day and I go to the dean of students office and I asked a young lady there--I get there late afternoon with my family and we don&#039 ; t have any place to stay so I go there and I asked her if I may have the list of approved housing, because I&#039 ; m going out in the community to find some housing. And she looks at me so funny and she says, &quot ; Excuse me a minute.&quot ; And she goes back in the back and she comes back out and says, &quot ; Dean-somebody&quot ; --it was a lady that talked with me and so she took me back and asked me some questions about the family and but they never would give me list. Instead they put me in some housing, again that was fortunate in a sense, they put me in what was called the old navy base they had on the campus and they converted that to married student housing. And so my family and I ended up living there and I was very pleased. It was only just several weeks later in talking with a black graduate student there in the department of biology, who was from Georgia. He explained to me why I had been given the housing, while whites who had put their names on the list to provide housing, sometimes in their own homes for graduate students and it was on the approved list. While they would rent to black from foreign countries, they would not rent to American blacks. And there were a lot of African, not a lot of them, but enough, be very visible. African students, Nigerian and others living out in approved housing that the white residents of Norman, all-white city, I was told that there had been one black family that lived in Norman and I think that they, aside on the university, it&#039 ; s probably still the same, I was back there recently. Did not accept American blacks, although I went to church at the largest white Baptist there and they welcomed us and all of that. But on housing--in fact you got three or four blocks away from the campus and it was sort of like Alabama again. The racial segregation was there. I had to experience one night, while there, I&#039 ; m going out with three of my fellow graduate students and (inaudible) department to a very popular beer tavern that students frequented, just always there. And of course we always worked late because we taught grads and we took classes and at night, you were there doing your work or you were doing your research or setting up your lab work for the next day, classes and things of that sort. So as a graduate student in science, you know they all will tell, you stayed at the school all the time. I&#039 ; d get up early in the morning, jump on bicycle, peddle from my housing about two miles from my department building and I&#039 ; d stay there all day, by 5:00, I&#039 ; d go home, eat dinner, say hi to the family and about an hour, get back on my bicycle, back over to the university, out there until maybe 10, 11:00, I&#039 ; d come home, that was just the life of a graduate student in science. One night we had finished our work and two or three other guys says, &quot ; Come on let&#039 ; s go have a beer, Dick, why don&#039 ; t you join us?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Okay.&quot ; So we go to this popular place on the (inaudible) of the campus and we walk in and of course it&#039 ; s just crowded with university students (inaudible) all around, standing and all of the tables--and we finally find a table in the corner and we all each ordered a pitcher of beer because this place is famous for serving beer by the pitcher. And we said bring us a pitcher of beer, well the waiter comes back and he brings everybody a pitcher of beer except me at the table. And so one of the guys said you know where is his beer, so the guy says, &quot ; We can&#039 ; t serve you here.&quot ; Well we were caught totally unaware, we had forgotten, they have too, they were more embarrassed than I and of course they had some unkind things to say to the guy and say come on let&#039 ; s go and we got up and went outside and the guys were so embarrassed. And they said come let&#039 ; s go, I said well I need to go home and they were pleading with me, I said, &quot ; No, you guys go on.&quot ; And I went home. But the next day I went to one of the professors in the department named Carl Riggs because he was serving on the Norman&#039 ; s city council. And I told him what had happened and I said to him, I&#039 ; m going to file a complaint with Oklahoma City NAACP. He called me back the next day and said, &quot ; Dick, I&#039 ; ve looked into that matter and here&#039 ; s what I want you to do. I want you get back with your friends and go back over there.&quot ; I never did but obviously what he had done was somebody had called, I guess the owner of the place and had said, &quot ; Well if he comes back in here, we&#039 ; ll serve him.&quot ; But I had forgotten that and it was such a fishbowl, I hadn&#039 ; t had experience like that, I went into the little Dixie, which is the southeast of Oklahoma on a field trip with all graduate students, about a dozen of us and I was of course the only black in the group, there were only three blacks students at graduate that studied Zoology at the University of Oklahoma. We get down one day after working in the field all day, we&#039 ; re all tired and we decided as students with a little money, we&#039 ; d splurge some. And there&#039 ; s this popular steak place and so one of the young ladies says, &quot ; Let&#039 ; s all have a steak.&quot ; And so sure enough we walk in the restaurant and everybody&#039 ; s very joyful and we&#039 ; re having a good time, we had a good day in the field. And we all sat down and the lady comes over and I noticed that she whispers to one of the young ladies in the crowd and the young lady gets up from the table, walks over and then the young lady comes back and say to the rest of us, hey we gotta go back--here again I was in what was called the most conservative parts of Oklahoma, but I didn&#039 ; t know it, as I said, it was called little Dixie and they rigidly segregated by race in the area and they would not even, the fact was that they didn&#039 ; t even serve blacks in that restaurant period. But here I am and so this dear lady who owns the place, she doesn&#039 ; t know what to do, she decide she&#039 ; d put us in a small meeting room. And or course we all recognize what this is all about and so I said you all go on and of course they plead, aw Dick please and so we all went back and sat in there and ate. But that was again just how sometimes you let your guard even when you know (inaudible) you grown up in a place. So I learned a lot of things even there in Oklahoma, I think they all made me stronger quite frankly--. LEMONTE: Children in school in Oklahoma? ARRINGTON: Didn&#039 ; t have any problems, I was so pleased about it, got to Oklahoma, my kids participated in everything, placed them in the school right there on the campus. All of the activities, my kids were very active and that was, you get (inaudible) to sleep because--you&#039 ; re not as quite as conscious about racial restrictions once--. We were at a university setting, I&#039 ; ve forgotten about the history of Oklahoma, even though they still have their--the professor shows me in one of the lecture rooms the area where they had roped off where the black students would have to sit. After first having to sit outside and then the students protested there about them having to sit outside the classroom. They then block the student who had been ordered to be admitted by the federal courts to the University of Oklahoma, they built an area, it&#039 ; s a little. (Inaudible) in every building he had a class and that&#039 ; s where he had to sit and they still had that, they longer had to sit there but they were still there in that lecture room, in the library he was given a special place in the cafeteria. And that may not--many years before I came to Oklahoma, but I had forgotten about that you know. And people were friendly and all and I had one faculty member (inaudible) I&#039 ; ll never forget who told me my first day there and he asked serious questions about whether or not I was going to succeed, not only because I was black but because I was from the south. And he said that southerners just didn&#039 ; t do well in graduate school and all that stuff and you know--very uplifting talk (both laugh). But I did well at Oklahoma and became the personality, a popular student at a black school. (Inaudible) what they called a (inaudible) top students, I was the first to join the biological society, I was tapped for that (inaudible). I got to be a very popular person and I was fortunate that I chose a professor named Harley P. Brown, whom I did not know at the time, he was from Mobile, Alabama and of course he still comes up, well his family is in Mobile. And he and his wife just took my family and me in, had us in their home regularly for dinner, liked to go out on weekends on field trips to collect bills and other things and they&#039 ; d come back and take my wife and the kids and I were--and we just became apart of that family. And it meant a great deal, I mean more than I even knew at that time, but it just made me feel a part of something. While things were still sort (inaudible) in the country in particularly back in Birmingham. So well, I&#039 ; ve been fortunate in a lot of ways over those years. And came back to Birmingham in &#039 ; 66. LEMONTE: But was there ever any thought of going some place other than Birmingham, or did you assume and understand on completion of your doctorate that you would return to Miles College and resume your career there? ARRINGTON: I had no commitment to that except my own personal desire. I had never thought of living any place except Alabama. Whenever I left Alabama, I always knew I was coming back to Alabama, I don&#039 ; t know why. I had a good offer down in Florida at Tilwater at the junior college when the junior college expansion was really under way in Florida, if I had a former teacher coworker of mine at Miles College who had gone there and encouraged me to apply and I accepted to faculty there of course the pay was compared to what Miles College was paying, was just great. But I made the decision not to go there, for some reason I always came back. My brother was always anxious to get out of Alabama and not come back. The graduate school he went to, Georgia and that&#039 ; s where he stayed, in Georgia and from there to South Carolina. Came back here and taught one year here and left, he just never liked staying in Alabama. Me, I&#039 ; ve always wanted to stay in Alabama. I still just don&#039 ; t see myself ever living anywhere except Alabama. I don&#039 ; t know what it is about, but anyway, that sort of takes us up to--we have the &#039 ; 66--? LEMONTE: &#039 ; 66, you come back to Miles College to teach fall of &#039 ; 66, I assume, full-time teaching--? ARRINGTON: Yeah, I came back that summer ; I had little (inaudible). But I had me never flown, never been on the airplane, I really finished all my work and defended my dissertation at the end of the fall semester. So the fall practical purpose, I was finished. But the university offered me a teaching position for a semester (inaudible), a special professor teaching, so I taught for one semester. Luscious Pitts, of course offered contacted me and Miles College sent me ticket to fly me back for an interview and so I got on the (inaudible) airline in Oklahoma City for the first time, I flew. (Inaudible) education (inaudible) year. And there was a gentleman, as acting dean then, I think Randolph (inaudible) was his name. (Inaudible) gentleman who had retired and then had come to Miles teaching and I had met with him and Luscious Pitts and they asked me to come back and wanted me to direct the summer school that summer. In fact, that week that I was there for the interview, I wrote up the schedule for the summer classes (both laugh). And went back and packed my family up and came back and directed the summer school. But I had signed a contract for about $10-$12k to come back as chairman of the science department. So I came back as chairman of the science department, but I directed summer school and when summer school over, Luscious then asked me while I&#039 ; m serving as chairman of the science department to act as Academic Dean. So for three years, I was academic dean at Miles College until I leave in 1970 to direct the consortium of black senior colleges in the state of Alabama, there was a consortium that had been formed a couple of years earlier through the initiatives of the Ford Foundation. And I took on that job and from May of 1970 until &#039 ; 79 when I elected mayor, I was director or what was incorporated as the Alabama Center for Higher Education, a consortium of initially eight historically black senior colleges in Alabama. And that was another good experience, additional administrative experience about a fundraising responsibilities dealing with foundations and the opportunity to interact with the faculties at eight campuses and get to know administrators in eight black campuses here in Alabama. So it was again a good experience. LEMONTE: But you loved teaching so much and had left, it was--? ARRINGTON: Yeah, I loved teaching, but I left it, I only taught one class at the university somewhere in that period, that university, I think was trying to get black faculty on or something and so they gave me a special thing, still in the catalog, I forget what they call it, but I taught on class at the university and that was it. I didn&#039 ; t know other teaching, but I was busy during that time, it was such a good time for black colleges and it was a time, shortly after so-called title 3 programs that had been put in place for purpose of strengthening black colleges by giving grants to black colleges. Eventually it became a program for developing colleges&#039 ; period and many today black and white schools are in there, but initially it was lenient to black colleges and provided us a source for funding for black higher education that was badly needed. And we had an opportunity to be somewhat creative. I had a certain niche I had to fill working for eight colleges, but I was able leverage that title 3 support, to get a lot of foundation support, so we had sizable grants, multi-year grants from Carnegie, Ford, (inaudible) and my responsibility, I was writing all of those grants and I was negotiating and I was traveling, especially New York, because I thought all of the foundation in the world were in New York. I was going to New York and meeting people and eventually came sort of a field worker, even though I served as director for a couple other foundations. I did field work, I visited colleges, I became a field officer and evaluator for (inaudible) education for all of the black colleges in South Carolina, and did the evaluations. So these were all very rich experiences, I guess that&#039 ; s why I didn&#039 ; t miss teaching. I was getting into areas and getting to interact with people all over the country, as well as the staff of the ES department of education and I was privileged enough to become one of their field workers and one of their evaluators. And that was good, one thing it meant that, you know, I could look out for certain schools and it was good for the center, I got to read, I saw what a lot of developing were doing, programs they were trying to initiate. And that certainly prompted my thinking about programs and how we are to shape them and when the Carnegie Foundation asked me to work for them and then the (inaudible) foundation asked me to do some work. Always it&#039 ; s something that&#039 ; s continued to expand my opportunities for learning and meeting people. LEMONTE: So you were there from &#039 ; 70 until you were elected mayor in &#039 ; 79, and there was a moment of political initiation at some point during that stage, when did you first have the thought descended to you of becoming involving in politics and public life? ARRINGTON: I had never, even in, as late as 1970, I had never thought about entering politics. In Birmingham, of course, things had obviously changed politically, the former government had been changed before I left, didn&#039 ; t take effect after I left because they were still in litigation up until October I believe of that year. We had gotten a new form of government, mayor council form of government, eventually somewhere like &#039 ; 68 or &#039 ; 69, when one of the council members passed, the eight white council members who were left, filled the vacancy with Arthur Shores, the first black to serve on the council and some short time after, I cannot remember whether it was a year later or months later, he ran for reelection and was elected to a term. So Arthur was serving on the city council and had serving I think like &#039 ; 69 or &#039 ; 70 something like that. I hadn&#039 ; t thought about politics because I had worked in my office downtown Birmingham, late that night I was still there, I had worked &#039 ; til 7,8,9 o&#039 ; clock, someone then came in one evening and they were out looking for some candidates to run for mayor, to run for council from the black community. I was impressed because these were young black guys, a guy named Jesse Stewart and I forget the other two names, escape me right now. But just the fact that they were concerned enough about the community, they were out trying to find what they called some good candidates to run and they came and asked me and initially me to run for mayor and I said no. And then they wanted to know if I&#039 ; d consider running for the council and I had talked with them and said, &quot ; Yeah, well, why don&#039 ; t you come back tomorrow and we&#039 ; ll talk about it.&quot ; Thinking they wouldn&#039 ; t come back, they came back and made a lot of commitments and I ended up running, I guess that was 1972--I&#039 ; d have to count back--. LEMONTE: &#039 ; 71 actually--. ARRINGTON: &#039 ; 71 yeah, yeah, that was 1971. And I ran, made the run-off and was elected in the run-off at another time of transition in Birmingham, I was elected at the time that David Vann, who (inaudible) to becoming mayor, Angie Procter, and I, we were considered the new moderates because the Birmingham city council, with the exception of many (inaudible) conceived to be a very conservative council and if you can understand that fight to get bull Connor out of office and then the issues of race that still raise. I can even understand that the council, why trying to move the city forward, had to be very considerate to him, people who were elected were of course, conservative. But in &#039 ; 71, when the three that I&#039 ; ve mentioned, three of us were elected, it was conceived to be a time of transition, moderates were coming on and replacing some of the conservatives on the city council and of course Arthur had been elected so my being elected was important, but not a great big issue, I wasn&#039 ; t breaking any new grounds. I guess the greatest surprise, over David Vann was elected because David Vann had been working in the community a long time and after he had come back here and started practicing law, having went for congress and all of that. But was considered liberal and I read some of the news clippings when David ran for congress and I guess he was forced to try to defend segregation and some of things he said in his--, but he was viewed as being liberal and folks said David Vann could never be elected dogcatcher in Birmingham and he was elected to the city council with me, that&#039 ; s how I got know David, had met his wife a little bit earlier who was a reporter for the Birmingham Post because she had done an interview with me and (inaudible) a future article on me while I was Miles College. She did what she called trailblazer interview, I was one of the persons she chose to interview so I had met (inaudible), but had not met David, had heard about him and so met him during the campaign quite frankly because he began raising money for the blacks who were running and he had his own campaign done, but one night he met me and called me aside and he called Jesse aside and the three of us and he pulls out of his wallet and gives maybe $500 to each of us or something like that. He told us the money had come from the owner of Parisian, who of course didn&#039 ; t want anybody to know it (inaudible). (inaudible) had sent the money and (inaudible) was helping me fund the campaign of the blacks. And so I got to know David from helping him campaigning and he was elected and I was on the council because he was very bright guy and always trying to do everything, just loved taking politics and he wanted to type (inaudible) you know. And I found him fascinating quite frankly because he was very knowledgeable and we got to be very good friends. And so he became sort of mentor for me, I don&#039 ; t think he knew he was a mentor, but I began following him and trying to learn my government and my politics from David Vann. And David was an unusual you know we got together and he&#039 ; d come over to the house and sit down and (inaudible) pot of greens and (inaudible) green and he&#039 ; d sit there for hours and we&#039 ; d talk and he&#039 ; d tell you about all of the things he thought he ought to do so forth and so on. When I was chairman of the committee on transportation communication, I was given a job of writing all of the work and doing the negotiations for the cable television franchise. Did most of it right away in my office for the Alabama Center for Higher Education 2121 building. And David would come over there ; I don&#039 ; t know how he practiced law, because we&#039 ; d come over there for four and five days a week. We&#039 ; d sit there and we&#039 ; d write stuff, what ought to be in the cable franchise and we&#039 ; d read, bring stuff in. But he just loved the business and of course I was following him and I sort of learned from David. So that was another fortunate, great for me to get to know David Vann. LEMONTE: Can you talk more about your first campaign ; the council members were, at that time elected at large? ARRINGTON: Yes. LEMONTE: And in a nonpartisan election, so people were really also independent campaigns based upon their name, their community contacts? ARRINGTON: Yes. LEMONTE: How did you go about that first campaign, who supported you, what were they pleasures and disappointments that you encountered and I guess particularly thinking ahead to your several campaigns as mayor, what your experience of campaigning in the white community and gaining support within the white community? ARRINGTON: The strength of my campaign, I think was the fact that I had worked for Luscious Pitts and LP knew a lot of people and even though he had left a year earlier to become president of Payne College in Augusta, the people who knew me for example in the business community, knew me as a (inaudible) at Miles College and especially the fact the I accompanied LP from time to time and earlier days and some of these sessions, that&#039 ; s how they knew me. And so many of LP&#039 ; s friends, like (inaudible) Jemison and people like that rallied to my campaign and they were glad to see me run. (Inaudible) times who was a power broker of a sort at the Birmingham News at the time, even suggested to me that I let LP send the letter and endorse my candidacy and he would arrange and make sure that it was running the letters to the editor in the Birmingham News, which he did, LP wrote a very fine letter. And it was important at that time because I guess I was being seen as somebody who might win, and the FOP and few of those groups for some reason, they really didn&#039 ; t know me at that time, I hadn&#039 ; t gotten into my battles about police conduct and policies but they began circulating stories like, I had been fired at Miles College because I had stolen money from Miles College and it was just floating around it&#039 ; s been some times when he would talk with me about it and suggested that I get LP to write a letter that you would run. Probably a letter to the editors and that was helpful because he wrote a letter speaking about me and saying I had fine character and all of that and how Birmingham would do well you know. And that was a big boost, plus I think we were at a time, Arthur Shores had been on the council and Arthur had not made any enemies of such, he while he was an outstanding and courage attorney and civil rights attorney and had had some terrible experiences, having his home bombed on several occasions, he was a lawyer who took Autherine Lucy to Alabama. He was still a very quiet man, he said very little and even in council meetings, he was never controversial. And I think that helped, because there were people in Birmingham, that may not have been residents of the city per se in all instances, but people who were very interesting in seeing the city continue to bring blacks into the arena of leadership. And so my ties to LP and thing so of that sort helped me to get support. And some regards while, I&#039 ; m sure people talked about race and stuff of that sort, they didn&#039 ; t--weren&#039 ; t widely (inaudible) I ran a campaign, I got some support, mainly from the south side in the white community and very little support from the eastern area, which was very conservative and largely white and that was to be for quite some time. And of course I was elected, and I think people were generally, those who considered progressive about wanting the city to change (inaudible). I think the black community was pleased that another black, although some of them had some doubts about me because I was not militant, I had not been marching and this had been a city been rocked by marches and demonstrations and so forth and that question was asked, where was I and had I done. And that was basically true, I only had worked behind the scenes, I sat with LP and many of them didn&#039 ; t even know about that. So they had mixed emotions, they were pleased that another black was on, as they felt that Arthur was militant and neither was I, and therefore that caused cause of the black community, they were not going to get a great boost because neither of us would be very outspoken. LEMONTE: Did you have a specific platform that you ran on that had major items of interest? ARRINGTON: I ran on, looking back at some of the early materials of recently as I&#039 ; ve been trying to do some writing of my own, I ran number one promoting Birmingham and what it&#039 ; s image and my commitment to that and had one or two other items in that area, I didn&#039 ; t deal a whole lot with opening with anything about race relations quite frankly. There was a very general kind of platform that I had four or five points. LEMONTE: No mention of police? ARRINGTON: No mention of police, no mention of anything controversial, that I was running but there were several blacks running then, like seven blacks might have been running that time. So people were getting at least accustomed to the idea and thought that I was educated, highly educated obviously. But after I was elected and I began to raise issues, a number of things, but especially issues police policies, and the way the police department dealt with the black community. That was a very sensitive cord within the black community, and I was their first elected official to begin to speak out about that and to focus attention on it and many ways and with help of come other council members to put in place policies that began changing police conduct and it made me a strong political of the FOP, that&#039 ; s where they saw me and but it may be the darling of the black community because police abused black citizens in Birmingham including shootings, were so rampant that every black understood that. And nobody had been given a platform such as I as a member of city government ; nobody had ever used that platform to really crusade against. Emory O Jackson had done it with his Birmingham World paper and a few other blacks, a few ministers, but nobody who had that stamp of being elected official had done it. And so I began keeping before the people and that&#039 ; s quite frankly how I became to be a very popular elected official in Birmingham&#039 ; s black community. When I first got on the council, I remember some fraternity brothers of mine, we had an annual dance and these were all men who were educated, some were physicians and doctors of other sorts and all of these things and teachers and I remember Clarence Mitchell, the president of the chapter coming to see me and asking me if I&#039 ; d go see the police chief, this is when I first got on, because we were having our Christmas, annual dance during the Christmas break. And the dance was always like a 10-2 or 9-1. And it was common driving at night, the police would stop and harass you, (inaudible) coming to see me and asked me if I&#039 ; d go talk with the police chief and explain what our organization was about and asked him to ask his police officers not to stop, I mean that&#039 ; s how things were back during that time, and of course we started a long battle of that, other than that I became very controversial in the eyes of many people. People who were fearful about whether or not my campaign to get rid of police abuse was undermining law and order and I was antipolice. I never got rid of it frankly in the eyes of many people, but it&#039 ; s one of the real contributions I feel I made to the city of Birmingham, was that we changed policies, we took over the years, started when I was a council member, and went on during my years as mayor, but we changed the policies totally. We professionlalized the police department that wasn&#039 ; t very professional and I think we got rid of rampant police abuse in the city. It was a much better city for it, that was really one of the things I did when I first got on the council, and of course the news papers you know, they like to write stories. So I was a new story for them and not only the fact that I was a black councilman, but here was somebody talking about the police, so I&#039 ; m in constant conflict with FOP about police actions and sometimes Mayor Joel sibyls and I&#039 ; m keeping records and files and pictures on people who had been arrested and beating by police officers and of course that was juicy stuff for the newspapers. And so I got a lot of play there in the newspaper, and those were all good stories. I went and found out if it all worked out well, I just think that some people in this town of my (inaudible) so forth, whose still around, I never forgotten and can never quite see as anything except somewhat controversial because I fought for--I started (inaudible) police and then about time I was mayor, I got a bigger responsibility and I&#039 ; m working for (inaudible) in government and trying to open doors for blacks, given promotions and all those things I got underway. And then in and out of court in those battles and so it helped shaped the perception that people had of who Richard Arrington was and what he was like. LEMONTE: The first time as council member would really redefine, it seems to me your working relationships with broader community including white, white business community and others, because I assume even at the Alabama Center for higher education, you were still functioning primarily within the black community and people out of town who were concerned about educational issues, did your network of contacts with the white community expand significantly during that first term as council member? ARRINGTON: Yes it did ; first of all, the campaign began to open up access to the white community. Around 1970, about time that white group started inviting some black candidates in, it had not had a lot of black candidates running for offices. It may have been a few people, Chris McNair had run for legislature unsuccessfully, Jim Montgomery had run the legislature unsuccessfully and LP had run, but they had very few but you know--in the early 70s by &#039 ; 71 more blacks get in. And when they held neighborhood forums, some of us were invited and the first campaign, a lot of places we were not invited, particularly a lot of places in the white community were not invited, but by the second time I ran because we had then gotten neighborhood associations and all of that, it was really invited to every place, but my first term, I (inaudible) I got to know people, I got to understand some issues, the zoning issues and their important, and that was a hot issue. That time I had got to know people like (inaudible) who was working to reach out the black communities to build some bridges and was using things like zoning issues, a common interest that single family areas whether they are black or white had in protecting single family housing, she was smart enough to use to bring people together and I got to know people like (inaudible) and folks like that. It opened up opportunities for me to know all the people I never would have know and so at the end of my four years, while some people were predicting there was no way for me to be reelected and columnist in two of the local papers-- because I had too controversial particularly on the police issue and of course when I was reelected with somewhat with ease, I think, even I was surprised and running city wide and got a good vote and most easily reelected to the council, which was again an indication, if you look at it, gauging how things are changing, how people are changing. Here I was a young, that time, a young council member who had been somewhat controversial, but you know I had worked on transportation and given the responsibility of committee chairman and getting the transit authority and the government making the transition from privately owned to publicly owned was working with Tom (inaudible) who was in the legislature, helping to get the (inaudible) transit authority and as I said I was working on a cable television. I worked in a lot of things, but the thing that got really attention was of course those things that tend to be somewhat controversial and that was the police issue and in a town where police were very, very powerful, you got to remember this is coming off of the Connor era where Connor is police commissioner was the most powerful politician and as a result it had spawned the FOP, that was a very, very, very in the city and here I come and probably didn&#039 ; t fully understand and would not have analyzed it, even to the extend I analyze it now, at that time, but here I come and I take on what is essentially one of the strongest political groups in this town and that&#039 ; s the police department which have in fact, the spokesman and the group that speaks for it is really FOP. We worked through all of that. So by the second term I wasn&#039 ; t really and I wasn&#039 ; t seen as anymore controversial as the early days of the police thing, I had continued that. But I had decided that that was enough of that, I had enjoyed it, it was part-time my work. I had learned, I thought quite a bit about government and how it works, but I going to leave and Rachel and I had talked about and I was not going to run for reelection. LEMONTE: Was there any thought on your part of perhaps running for mayor in 1975 at the end of your first term? ARRINGTON: None at all, none at all, ever thought about it. And we made the decision that I would not run again, I would have had eight years I&#039 ; ve done. I&#039 ; ve never thought about running for mayor, in fact, we took off on a vacation somewhere, Rachel and I did and that&#039 ; s when the Benita Carter thing flared up and that&#039 ; s the story about how I ended up running for mayor. But no, prior to that, I had never thought about it. Had been mentioned to me once and that was when the guys had come to see me the first time in &#039 ; 71, say they were looking for somebody, would I run for mayor, I almost laughed in their faces and then they say, what about running for council and that&#039 ; s why ended up running for council, but no, I had not. I was sort thrust up on me quite frankly, I had not thought about until this incident came up again, police, black community tension. The death Benita Carter, David Vann trying to walk the tight rope between the black community and the white community and supporting the police and the resulting fed up in the black community over David&#039 ; s failure the fire the police officer rather than fine, he disciplined him by giving him desk duty and what have you which led black leadership, largely black preachers, but a few others to become very disenchanted with David. But I also think at announcing that David handled poorly, when he-- everything sort of worked against at that time, I will tell. This is a hot issue caused some small rioting out there in Kingston and all of that and David just trying to run through this thick of problems and how best to handle it. So we appoints this committee which is the first we ever had that. And he appoints this special citizens committee and I don&#039 ; t know what David had in mind, I assumed he hoped that the committee would be helpful, but the committee comes back not, unanimously, one person abstaining and says the police officers were wrong, he had acted improperly. He (inaudible) in corner and with the committee&#039 ; s report out there now, the leadership of the black community becomes more militant about it, we got to fire this guy and of course is knowing, I can&#039 ; t fire the guy, I don&#039 ; t have the grounds the fire the guy. And so he&#039 ; s maneuvering and so, when he finally decides what to do with and that was to give desk duty and he comes up with his (inaudible) and after that and David apparently had thought it through and planned it out so he drew up his public statement and he invited members of the black leadership committee to his office, that morning that he was going to make the announcement and like they came in like 8 or 9:00, something somewhere around that time. And of course they engaged David in a heated discussion in the office. They disagreed with his decision not to fire the officer and it reached upon where it was just totally unproductive and David said well I got a news conference ; he had already set his news conference to make the public announcement about what he planned to do in the case. And so they began pleading with him not go out-- ARRINGTON: (inaudible) but you raised a question my leaving Miles College, what happened at Miles College was there was a search for a new president and John Monroe, who had come to Miles from Harvard some years earlier, led an effort to get me back as president and apparently had spoken with the bishop, who was the chairman of the board. LEMONTE: Had you left at this time? ARRINGTON: Yeah, I had left--. LEMONTE: So that you left prior to the search? ARRINGTON: Right, I had left in May of &#039 ; 70 and I think Luscious left shortly after that, so when they began to search, I was--John Monroe and some other members formed the faculty committee and they talked with me about my willingness to accept the presidency and I said yes, but I didn&#039 ; t the college would want to elect someone who was not a CME, not a member of the Christian Methodist Episcopal Church, of course, I&#039 ; m primitive Baptist. They went to the bishop and the bishop, I&#039 ; m told, (inaudible) that they would consider somebody outside of that denomination. And so the faculty was strongly behind me as the presidential candidate and I submitted my name for the candidate for president. In the final analysis, I don&#039 ; t know what happened behind the scenes, but having seen the church politics and seeing board meetings and knowing that the board is dominated by the CME ministers and so forth and that the bishop, being a very strong individual as yet, still politically has to be sensitive to what his ministers and members want. I just kind of felt that they really ready to make a break with having a non-CME as president. And so they ended selecting Dr. Clyde Williams as president and that was fine. I don&#039 ; t know what I said about it, but my recollection is that when that happened, I had not, you know I was still at--probably still at the college, I can&#039 ; t remember--and I know I was still at the college when Clyde was elected. Because I met Clyde on his first visit after he had been appointed, but he hadn&#039 ; t yet come to the college, and he had talked with he and me had expressed some concern about my loyalty to--. LEMONTE: You were dean at the college at this time? ARRINGTON: About my loyalty to his administration and I assured him that I was, but I think he was concerned, since I had been in a competition to be president, that I--I was so disappointed that I probably created a problems for him, maybe with the faculty and he probably (inaudible) the faculty had been lobbying on my behalf. But I sure did work well with him. I even wrote him a letter to that effect after he left. But he never seemed really assured ; I don&#039 ; t remember whether it was in letter or phone that the same issue was raised. And I just thought that it was better for me to leave the college at the time because I didn&#039 ; t really want him thinking it, if I&#039 ; d ever differ with him it was because of what had happened in the selection of presidents. And also the center was looking for somebody at that time, executive director, so that&#039 ; s why I decided to leave. LEMONTE: But in retrospect, had you been offered the presidency, you were prepared to accept it? ARRINGTON: Yes. LEMONTE: Along about 1970? ARRINGTON: Yes. LEMONTE: And had that happened, I would assume that it had a group of young me come calling on your to run for city council, you might not have able to agree to their request? ARRINGTON: I would not have been as president of the college ; I certainly would have been able to do it. But that&#039 ; s what happened their and that&#039 ; s how I ended up in politics and I was telling the story about David and his experiences that morning. I&#039 ; m in the office with him, he walks out of the office with these ministers walking behind him pleading for not to go out, let&#039 ; s talk about it some more and of course, he walks out and goes out and gives a statement. Well of course, they were very angry and that leads them eventually to calling me to a meeting and talking to me about running and so forth, and that&#039 ; s how I ended up--sort of semi-draft you call it, running for mayor. LEMONTE: Could we talk a little about the second term, your second term as a council member was 1975 to 1979, David Vann was mayor during that period of time, you mentioned that your first meeting with David had occurred during the 1971 campaign when he had forwarded some campaign funds to you, you had not met him during the period in &#039 ; 63 when he was very much involved with the negotiations between black and white leaders? ARRINGTON: No, I knew he was involved, I heard his name, but I was never in any of those meetings. At those high level meetings when they were having meetings like with the (inaudible) even King, I wasn&#039 ; t even here, no I left here in August of &#039 ; 63, so I was never in a meeting with David at that time. LEMONTE: Could you reflect on your service with him as a council member, did the two of you emerge as political allies in some of the important issues that the city confront between in &#039 ; 75 and &#039 ; 79? ARRINGTON: Yes, I think very much so, I think David had a strong falling with five or six council members who supported his program and so things much as he did in a political sense, I was one of those, eventually David Herring was to come as a one of them. And Amina was still on the council, Arthur was on the council, so David had, during his time council member, anyway, had carved out the niches of sort of political leader of the group. He spent much of his time at city hall, even when he was city council member. We worked most of George Siebels&#039 ; budgets and restructured departments, which the council has the authority to do. Got rid of arrangement where Cletus Boyles was the director of public work for a number of departments and council had budget time reorganized the department and David was a leader in this. And these and many efforts, and looking back, it was remarkable that George Sibyls saw that David had those votes and he really didn&#039 ; t--I mean he fought for it, but once he lost, he didn&#039 ; t try to fight. We had to override on one or two things. David redefined what for example, the finance chairman was, in the minds of many people fault city government, they got to be the strongest committee chairman shift there was. But before David was chairman of the finance committee, it wasn&#039 ; t that strong of a position quite frankly, but David made it that kind of position, because David was so involved and because he loved it so much and the city stuff, he (inaudible) he really worked it, and he had a following there, so he was able to get things done. Even down to the neighborhood associations that we have today, the so- called participation program. I think a lot of the people have forgotten that Siebels opposed a proposed the first time around. In fact, I don&#039 ; t know if he vetoed it or whether (inaudible) or if you had enough votes, anyway to turn it down. I think we lost it, Vann had proposed a structure such as we have now. Sibyls wanted something much more conservative, didn&#039 ; t want to do as much power sharing with the people, that concept of the people very much involved in the government through citizen participation. Siebels wanted less of that, he understood the citizen participation but wanted less of it and initially fought off the effort. It was a second time the matter came before the--council came back (inaudible) for a vote that we mustered enough votes to pass that program. But Vann was clearly if perhaps the leader, the most effective elected official there in city hall during that time and of course ended up running against George Sibyls at the end of Vann&#039 ; s first term. And Sibyls&#039 ; first term as mayor, he ends up running against Sibyls. And Vann beats Sibyls by less than 2,000 votes, I don&#039 ; t remember the 1100 or 1200--I think I still have a copy of Sibyls&#039 ; letter that he wrote somebody after that. He lost, he was just crushed, but he always blamed me for his loss to David Vann, because Tony Harrison and I--Tony is a young black legislature here in Birmingham. Tony Harrison and I worked the black community through neighborhood meetings on talk shows and radio and all for David Vann. And we succeeded and pulling away from Sibyls&#039 ; sizable black vote. By this time blacks have really become a major political factor in Birmingham. Many more blacks now and--Voting Rights Act has passed and many voters are on the role now, by that time 40% are slightly more than people on the voting rolls in city of Birmingham were black. And they loved George Sibyls, Sibyls was the first mayor who had really gone out into the black community and started attending functions in the black communities, he would go to black churches and all and blacks had never seen that, after all you know--you just--one or two people (inaudible) from bull Connor. You know get Connor, and then you move around and you get Albert Boutwell and they get the new government. And Boutwell of course was very conservative and then comes Sibyls after that. And Sibyls was astute enough to see the going political empowerment of blacks and maybe for his other interest to involve people, but he didn&#039 ; t mind going out to black functions. Now a few years before that you couldn&#039 ; t have done that. In fact, that was one of the issues that they would use against a candidate who got into a runoff, because we got the black vote, if you got the black vote, you were defeated in the runoff, they called it putting the black hand on a candidate. But now the Voting Rights Act has changed that because now blacks can freely register to vote and they have a large part of the population and an expanding number of them are on the voters&#039 ; roll. So if Sibyls obviously knew this, he goes out and blacks of course are thrill, that the mayor of the city comes to black functions, he comes to black churches. And so they vote for Sibyls and the second he runs (inaudible). He had a strong black vote and he had a real hold on the black vote and we knew that the only way that David Vann could defeated Sibyls was that we had to get the black vote away from Sibyls and delivered it somehow to David Vann and that was not an easy job. I mean Tony and I really worked hard, we went to see civic association neighborhood leaders and we talked with those people and those were very, very sincere about it. I can remember some of them just asking me, they wanted to support me, because I was asking them and I was sort of popular then as a council member. And many had started viewing me as their voice down at city hall by that time. I had been doing things like, not only the police thing, but also reporting to the black community on the radio thing every week about city hall and this kind of thing. Now that perception of me is that I&#039 ; m there a council member so to speak, even though I run at (inaudible) but I&#039 ; m their councilman, I&#039 ; m their voice. And I did some bonds with them, and so now I go to them and ask them to support Vann and some of them I remember, was very troubled by it and they say, I want to do what you want me to do, but are sure (inaudible). But we succeeded, we pulled about 80 something percent of the black vote for David Vann and I don&#039 ; t think that George Sibyls ever thought that would happen and that&#039 ; s how David won office as mayor and as I said, George Siebels never forgot that, I think he went to his grave still smarting over that. But I worked for David, that time he was mayor, I think I supported their initiative, David pushed this--my relationship with him was really a very close one. And we really never had a real disagreement, I mean we disagreed on some things, I was still pushing affirmative action kinds of things, this is before affirmative action was a big deal, policy wise, and I was pushing policies. David always got in there, he was smart enough not to (inaudible) he would sort of co-op you by giving in there and working with you and shaping it the way he thought it would work. He thought it was too radical over there and the mere fact that he kept the dialogue (inaudible) all the time, even on issues like--you know I stayed on the police, I stayed initially on parts when Sibyls was there. I got a (inaudible) Bill Meyers comes in and you know (inaudible). But even with the disagreements about police policies sometimes, Vann was a politically astute enough ; he also really had a genuine sense of fairness ; he wanted to include folks. He was always aware that we can go too fast and some people wouldn&#039 ; t accept it, but David was always most the white standards anyway, going too fast. So I found him easy to work with and if I was trying to put some ordinance on or develop some new policy, or even having a little complaint about system who said that he and someone in the family or someone who had been abused by the police. Vann never positions himself as an opponent ; he always got in and sort of worked him, that way, he sort of kept control. So I worked closely with David and I was really sort of troubled when I decided to run against David, I like him a lot, and I was being pushed by him and then--what a lot of people don&#039 ; t know is (inaudible) Roseman was also a major factor and when she learned I was going to learn, she was pushing me. She had supported David, but she had become disenchanted with David because she said he didn&#039 ; t communicate well with the people and didn&#039 ; t have the access she suggested to me when I got into the campaign that I make a part of my platform--the matter of sensibility to the mayor, because people were complaining that David was not very accessible. Particularly some of the most liberal white voters who had supported him and that are what they were saying about him. What I think was happening quite frankly is that David was so busy working the nuts and bolts and everything, he just loved, I remember Larry (inaudible) saying to me once, you I don&#039 ; t care how well you put something together for mayor Vann, he&#039 ; s going to do something, if he doesn&#039 ; t do anything but cross another t or dot another I--. LEMONTE: (inaudible) was then David&#039 ; s executive secretary? ARRINGTON: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I remember when he was telling me that, but David loved to do. I don&#039 ; t care, you could get all of the wise men in the world to work something, you give it to David, he&#039 ; s going to sit there and he&#039 ; s going to go through it and say it&#039 ; s good, but he&#039 ; s going to change something. And I think he got so involved in that, that he didn&#039 ; t have a lot of time. Mayor&#039 ; s office is really demanding anyway, I mean never get a man who people think, you ought to get one after the Joe Rileys and a few others that people love and say always accessible and always out with the people, but you want to get a man who, after the first term, people think he or she&#039 ; s a very accessible person, you can see the mayor. They start complaining after a while, how can you get in to see the mayor. So David is very busy working is what I&#039 ; m thinking, he wants to work on everything and he&#039 ; s putting a lot of things in place, but he&#039 ; s not implementing a lot. He&#039 ; s stacking up money for example, which was a real advantage to me. He comes up with all of these great ideas and he puts the money in place, but he never gets around to getting the program going. And so when I come in as mayor of course, David has gotten a lot of things in place, which you know is like for me--push the button and let it go, that he had put in place. A lot of money stacked up there to spend, projects. And I just think it&#039 ; s because he&#039 ; s always creative and he was always trying to put something together and it was good to this point, but maybe he ought to rework it and do. I think I had David&#039 ; s former law partner-- LEMONTE: John Carlton. ARRINGTON: No, not join, that&#039 ; s the other guy. LEMONTE: Stickway? ARRINGTON: Whoever first started practicing law with David, but he said David&#039 ; s a wonderful guy, he say--I will tell you David, he seeks to be a perfectionist. David will get an important lawsuit for you and he will in, have it won for millions of dollars and he&#039 ; ll come back and decide (inaudible) other things and he&#039 ; ll lose (inaudible) several times. And that&#039 ; s just the way David was, the longer you let him work on something, the more he&#039 ; s going to fix it. He&#039 ; s going to fine-tune it, fine-tune it, and fine-tune it. And while that&#039 ; s good in a way, I think he got so involved that he lost some of his strong liberal white support. So when I ran against him and he had-- the white vote was frightening because John Katapotis is in there and Frank Parsons is in there, so you got three or four strong whites running. And while we got maybe it was three and we got four blacks running, but Larry Langford was expected to be a strong, but he wasn&#039 ; t, he didn&#039 ; t poll well at all in the black community. So the black vote gets so fragmented and David ended up with 16% or something like that. And he gets (inaudible) even out of the runoff. I&#039 ; ve always wondered what would have happened in the runoff if David had ended up in the runoff. Here I am polling for the big black voted, polling 40 something percent of the vote, that gets me in to the runoff and Parsons is 16 point something, like 17 percent, David is 16, and John is right below David. I think John came in right behind David. But I was wondering what would have happened if David had gotten into a runoff with me. But he was out of course he ends up shortly thereafter a week later, he decides to endorse me. He comes out publicly to endorse me. LEMONTE: Two questions before we move into your campaign and first term, prior then to the Benita Carter tragedy in the summer of &#039 ; 79, your plan was to finish your second term as council member, leave politics, return to I assume a full-time career somewhere in higher education? ARRINGTON: Yes. LEMONTE: David&#039 ; s assumption, I would imagine was that he would seek a second term and that you would support him which I--? ARRINGTON: I assume that was his assumption, he certainly would have had no reason to assume otherwise. LEMONTE: But there was never any thought that when his tenure as mayor concluded you would be his logical successor, that was not something that had occurred or had occurred to him? ARRINGTON: Certainly it never occurred to me and it was never discussed with me. I don&#039 ; t know if David ever thought how long he would even serve as mayor, but because I didn&#039 ; t have any real interest in being mayor and I enjoyed it and think I had said to some people I&#039 ; ve enjoyed my time on the council, had a great learning experience for me in many ways. But I never wanted to do it full-time politically. It&#039 ; s fun being part-time politician, coming over for committee meetings and attending city council meetings and then going on doing other things you wanted to do. But I never wanted to do it full-time and that was the way I truly felt about it. I did not really want to do it. And so I don&#039 ; t really think up until maybe a week before I formally announced, because the rumor was out there then. I remember Scottie Green coming down to the church where I announced because he said he had to come down. He said he had to see this himself, he said he couldn&#039 ; t believe I was going to run against David, I remember he said that to me that day, he was there in the crowd. But up until about a week before that I don&#039 ; t think that David had an idea that I was going to run. He was caught up in (inaudible) and all of this debate that were still going on and the preachers marching and they do this march downtown and saying David Vann&#039 ; s gotta go and I&#039 ; m standing there on the city hall 19th street portico with David Vann where they had set up the microphone for the ministers to speak and when they turned the corner there onto 19th street off of 6th ave it was, David walks off and goes and meets them. And of course they&#039 ; re shouting, the Vann&#039 ; s must go and he meets them about a halfway the block before the city hall there on 19th street, shakes their hands and join them and marches with them. And they get up and of course they talk about him and make all the speeches and so forth. And even at that time, I had, at that point had crossed my mind that I was going to be running at all. So it happened sort of sudden--. LEMONTE: Did you tell David prior to the time you made your announcement that you were going to run against him? ARRINGTON: I really don&#039 ; t believe I did, but I don&#039 ; t know. It was like being swept along and something that--at the time, I sort of preferred would not have happened quite frankly. But what they were saying to me was it was time for me to run and the thing the ministers were saying we&#039 ; ve been standing with you in all the (inaudible). Because they were talking about all the fights, the police thing and all of that and we&#039 ; ll back you this, that and the other. And you&#039 ; re the person and so forth and so on. I can&#039 ; t say they did a lot of arm-twisting ; they went really, really fast in a short period of time. In fact, I agreed I&#039 ; ll run and then I called my wife and then I to write up something for a news conference, they had call out there for later that day. So it went fast, but even in the campaign, David and I--got along well, I took a few pot shots at David by saying that I was going to be a very accessible mayor. I had two or three pointers and (inaudible) given them to me and asked me to push those points. And she was my single largest contributor in that campaign the first time. Because when I ran for the mayor, I didn&#039 ; t raise any money, I raised 19k in that campaign the first time. And much of it was taken up from black churches quite frankly. And (inaudible) gave me $500. And she allowed her name to put out there. And that was my largest contribution by far. Now when I got to the runoff, after I got 40 something percent of the votes, the handwriting was on the walls, Goodrich and some of the corporate community came in and gave me some money, so in the runoff, I was able to raise about $30k, whereas I had raised on 19 the first time. But what I had going for me been a solidified and mobilized black vote, opposed to David having his lost his black base and really got a fragment and (inaudible) about it. It split and goes in three different directions. And as time passed, the black community developed a sort of fervent of belief that he could win, when they first started off, I think it was a lot of doubt. I&#039 ; ll never forget that Dr. AG Gaston and Vincent Townsend, summoned me to a meeting in Dr. Gaston&#039 ; s office one morning, shortly after I had formally announced that I was running and Dr. Gaston lectured me there with Townsend and said blacks couldn&#039 ; t win and I had made a big mistake and so forth and he ended--and Townsend said to me, &quot ; Look one day you know, there is going to be a time for black.&quot ; &quot ; Blacks&#039 ; time will come or something to that substance.&quot ; We will support you at that time, but you know, now is not the time and so forth and that conversation ended with Gaston asking, almost instructing me and he said, &quot ; Richard, what I want you to do, I want you to go out of here now and tell people you&#039 ; ve changed your mind and that you&#039 ; re gonna support David Vann.&quot ; That&#039 ; s what he said when I was leaving and I said, &quot ; Dr. I&#039 ; ll have to think about it.&quot ; I know I wasn&#039 ; t gonna change and I left, I did talk with some of the ministers Jared, Woods and a bunch of them about the meeting and they said, &quot ; Well, we&#039 ; re gonna go on anyway, we can win without Dr. Gaston.&quot ; You know they were fired up and they kept folding my arms and pushing me along. So I ended up with this mobilized vote, because as I said as time went on, blacks started thinking we knew we were gonna win. And they come in and they start volunteering and I got to find something for them to do. They&#039 ; re all fired up and they turned out to sixty something percent vote of blacks, so that what was the first time (inaudible) people would say the primary and whites were not that fired up, they were divided. And though there was a slight white majority on the voting roll, I don&#039 ; t know where in (inaudible) there was, but on the voting rolls, 55% of the people on the voting rolls are still white and about 45% black. Whites were not really as fired up as the blacks were. So now when it hits and I got 40 something percent of the vote and I go into a runoff with Frank Parsons, who is a political (inaudible) I think, I don&#039 ; t know all Frank had been doing, say he&#039 ; d been running some other campaigns, but he had never run as far as I know. I think it shook things up, but it reverberated in the black community. It really fired the black community, gosh here is this candidate 40 something percent of the vote, this boy here, and oh we can win. Now the black community is truly fired up. The white community I think it sends trembles of fear through the corporate community also. And some of the people in the corporate began an effort to organize to get a strong white turn out and they did. The white vote shot up to about 60 something percent, which is a strong turn out, the black vote the first time was 60 something percent, but in the runoff, I mean, blacks were so fired up in the runoff, I get 73% of black turn out, which I think is probably still a record of a turn out in the city of black voters percentage- wise. I&#039 ; m able to get some racial crossover from some white votes and Frank gets only less then 1% of the black vote. So I ended up winning by 2,000 or so votes over there and it was still somewhat different. The night we were waiting for the results to come in at the old parliament house, which was the headquarters for the victory (inaudible) that night, David came earlier, about time my family arrived there, my dad, mom and David and he was in there with us. And it was still sort of a choking experience. David, my friend, and I had defeated him and I remember Richard Friedman was there interviewing us and of course he writes and he wrote in his article sort of like choking up when he was interviewing him because I felt that way. I was pleased I had won, but I was sad seeing that David has lost, I really was. But yet, there was a guy who was supporting me and was there and doing things that David has always done and he was always (inaudible) to say the first (inaudible). So it was something to remember. That was an interesting night when I elected ; my supporters tore the Parliament House down (both laugh). They built my camp there, they had to stop people, they eventually closed it down, the fire inspectors came and wouldn&#039 ; t let anybody else come into the hotel. It was interesting, I mean it was an exciting night, I came down there and the place was just jammed, I came down from the top floor suite and we had to work our way through the crowd to get up to the stage. Folks were shouting, car horns honking all over the place. The president Carter called, just when I was about to go down and greet the folks, the phone rings and it&#039 ; s president Carter and you know he said something. And so it was a very historic time and I still remember and looking back at news clippings and stories that just bring me back those memories of that particular evening. LEMONTE: You mentioned that your total campaign cost in 1979 were between the two races, right around $50,000? ARRINGTON: Yeah. LEMONTE: Earlier, you had said that (inaudible) has conveyed some campaign money to you in a council race. Was there any business support financially in your first election for mayor? ARRINGTON: In the run-off. And (inaudible) gave me some money, but Henry Goodrich sort of put--the corporate community sort of channeled money through Henry Goodrich who brought it to me. And or either sent people and that&#039 ; s how I got the 30-something thousand dollars--. LEMONTE: Did any members of the corporate community sit down and talk to you about their hopes and expectations for the city and attempt to gauge you as a candidate? ARRINGTON: Not at that time, the only exposure I got has been through news media interviews and forums and at the time it was sort of limited of what candidates could say. And even through the run-off, it went the same. But once I was elected, interestingly, the person to invite me to come to a meeting with the business community for dinner, in which he was host, was Tom Bradford of people, I will never forget that. I had a short-lived experience with Tom, he was, at the time on the park board and considered to be one of the most ultra-conservative businessman quite frankly. But I don&#039 ; t know if he called me or I called him, but I ended up going to his office over there on first ave and sitting and talking with him. And he called me at some point and offered to host a dinner and invite the corporate community in and that was my first meeting and that was a very interesting meeting. Some rather frank talk went on that night about race and all of that. I remember he used to explain to me why downtown was going to be such a challenge and the fact about white behavior, once the downtown area go to be a certain percentage black. It was a good meeting. But some of those--Joe Farley was around that time, shortly thereafter, he stepped down and (inaudible) came in, but Joe Farley was around. Joe wasn&#039 ; t very active, but he was sort of liberal among the corporate people, and had a run-off, spoken to me a couple times, but nothing of any great detail. So we eventually, (inaudible) the support in the corporate community built up, but some people obviously in 20 years, they haven&#039 ; t came around, I mean, I had talks with people like Hall Thompson, but obviously never got any kind of support from Hall, but got support from Judy and the (inaudible) time, I got support from his son, who now runs their business. And I never got any support from Harbert, although, the next time I ran, Raymond Harbert, who was then the CEO, had succeeded his death, did a fundraiser for me up at the Summit Club. So there were interesting things like that. (Inaudible) B. Stevens, I never got him to anything--get him to come to a meeting, he just totally refused. He tried to talk to me once about some things he thought ought to be done and I asked him if he&#039 ; d lead the effort to do it and of course he would not. So I never (inaudible) B. Stevens or that family at all in anyway, but over the years we got a good (inaudible) of corporate folks and they began helping and (inaudible) Harris came along and he was more active in reaching out. And of course eventually Leo King and he started using his influence pulls them around. But the interesting thing Barney was, he proceeded Henry as head--(inaudible) was a Vulcan Material, but he was very-- LEMONTE: Monahan. ARRINGTON: Monahan. By the end of my third year, the time when people talking about election again, he calls me and he says that some of us want to meet with you. And I said, &quot ; Fine.&quot ; And he wanted to know if I wanted to come over to what is the Amsouth Bank tower. I walk over there that day ; they really had the meeting in the southern natural gas office complex. And I walked up there and (inaudible) was just about (inaudible) in the corporate community there. Few exceptions, but who&#039 ; s who in Birmingham and they came Barney spoke and their offer was to support me, they wanted me to run again for mayor, I don&#039 ; t know what had gone into their discussions, but I assumed that they had concluded that the next mayor was going to be black, things have changed. And we&#039 ; ve had almost four years with this guy and some folks (inaudible). Let&#039 ; s strengthen him and make sure we keep him in office rather having some other black, which we don&#039 ; t know as well. And so it made a great (inaudible) worry about money and if I would run again, they (inaudible) get out and pass leaflets and all of this kind of stuff. And they did, they raised the money for all and me. Some of them John Woods, some of these got to be people I could go to. Here and there, I had a falling out with most of them, at one point or another at one time or another, but I thought overall, my relationship with the corporate community was good. I think once the corporate community saw that it was going to be a black mayor here, because it&#039 ; s a black majority now, here in this city. Most of them decided said, &quot ; We&#039 ; re going to support Arrington.&quot ; Most of them did, even when they were still running white (inaudible) for mayor, but they knew he wasn&#039 ; t going to win, mostly corporate folks were still giving me support. LEMONTE: Aside from the issue of Benita Carter and police, what were the topics or issues in your 1979 campaign for mayor that represented your platform and the points that distinguished you from Frank Parsons or the other candidates? ARRINGTON: Well, in the run-off, of course, I tried to (inaudible) experience that Frank had, none of that kind of experience and tried to speak of that as (inaudible). But I also set other goals ; city image was one of the things I had talked about in the campaign. Management was another thing, because of encouragement from folks like (inaudible), I talked about management style a lot and what my management style was going to be and issues (inaudible). I did have to address of course you know, the whole matter of how I was going to (inaudible) the police department, because that was still really a concern of people. And initially, I don&#039 ; t think that anybody thought that I was going to win. Anyway, I mean until the primary and then I think that it really dawned on people and some people I think felt that if there was going to be--the most disastrous area would probably be that this guy is not going to get along, the police don&#039 ; t like him and that&#039 ; s going to be bad for us. I think that was--but I had not really dealt that much with the issue. But I had to answer questions about it because they had asked--no questions were asked about it. And then the FOP also had a sense in that campaign, that maybe more than other folks did--that a black might be elected and that&#039 ; s why they got Larry and Larry was in it and they threw their support for Larry Langford for whatever reason, I don&#039 ; t know what their political strategy was. But there was to fragment to vote or whatever, but they did. It just didn&#039 ; t work. But we just--I talked to some about economic development, but I talked particularly about changing the city image, the management styles and things of that sort, so I talked about that. Time went by and subsequent elections, we learned a little bit more ; we put together a better platform, a more inclusive platform. LEMONTE: So you walk in as mayor in the fall of &#039 ; 79, you knew city hall, you knew people, but here you are as mayor, what was your sense in feeling an issue begin that experience and what kind of reception did you get from people, already in city government? ARRINGTON: Well, my feeling was one, a lot of uncertainty to tell you the truth. In fact I had thought about it sense and I wonder, for somebody who hadn&#039 ; t city hall at all, as elected mayor, a transitition (inaudible). Secondly, but I still had that--still uncertainty but once I won I was swept up really in this whole media thing because worldwide media--I spent all my time interviewing, doing TV things, because Birmingham&#039 ; s got a black mayor, that was big, big stuff. So much so that even I didn&#039 ; t--it was--I started writing my inaugural address the night before the inauguration at home late that night when I finally got home, I think I had done an interview, a guy--a photographer--a reporter from People magazine had gone and they gone home with me and done some shots of the family. A lot of that stuff was what I had, I didn&#039 ; t really have a transition team and all, I was just doing all of this media stuff. And I didn&#039 ; t even finish my speech until I had gotten to the office that morning that I was to speak at the ceremony had set I don&#039 ; t remember the time, maybe 10:00 or something. And I still had two or three (inaudible) I finished writing and then give it to the girl to type up. That&#039 ; s how busy it was, but I turned the people who had been my friends first of all, particularly Nina and David who were on the council. And I began talking with them about trying to put together a staff and it was Nina who had suggested to me that&#039 ; --take Willie Davis because he had been over in the council (inaudible) and he had some experience. And then when we decided (inaudible) decided to come--I think Tom was coming too, David was opposed to that say I was taking all the experienced staff over to that side, but Nina spoke up and of course she thought I needed her and you know--and she just let t Tom go on and so. That helped some, we came in--I didn&#039 ; t have a whole lot of experience on putting together that staff in city government and then I was trying to--had decided that--listening to folks I had to sort of balance the staff and I tried to get (inaudible) in and I tried to get blacks on the staff as well as whites and all of that. And then I was able to get you to come (inaudible) and that&#039 ; s what we worked on. We put together a pretty balanced staff and we got going. I mean we staggered out of the open gate and somehow we regained our balance and we kept going and it continued to be a learning experience all the way for 20 years it was a learning experience I will tell you. We learned how to do some things, we got some breaks. We sometimes have priorities (inaudible) just to get the priorities in order, but I thought we got some things done and unfortunately we couldn&#039 ; t get some of them done without some debate, some conflict, after all it was--we came in &#039 ; 79 with an economy in shambles and we were concerned about that, we didn&#039 ; t have a strong economy. But again, we were fortunate and that certain things were happening I mean the University was there and it was sort of an anchor and the economy began slowly changing and the transition into a service-type economy was beginning to pick up. Some--that helped us a whole lot and here and there we started having some success and I do think we started to administer, I do think we put in place a pretty good administration, I think we did some good things administrative wise, I think we did some good planning. I think the thing was when we started out and decided we had to start surveying and putting emphasis on retention existing businesses as well as looking new ones. I think some of those were little things, but they turned out to be important kinds of things for us. And we began to have some breaks with the economy during that latter part of that term. We still had some issues of conflict of course, the affirmative action thing was on its way and then somewhere at the end--early in the second term, I&#039 ; m dealing with the consent decree and all of that and of those things were controversial, fight over minority participation in programs and having a fight with the associated general contractors. So it was challenging in that, because when I think going into government anyway as a chief executive is just challenging (inaudible). But we just had issues, we had things changing and we were trying to make some social changes, we were trying to build a city government that was more inclusive in trying to bring people in. We&#039 ; re out trying to push at the same time to put in a minority participation programs. There were a whole lot of issues that made it very challenging time for us and we get into a fight right away about the police chief, so that for many people was a carry over, a bitter taste that they already had because the doubts they had about my becoming a mayor because of what posture they had seen me take as a council member and now the first thing I do is get into a fight over the selection of the police chief. So that&#039 ; s what I mean when I&#039 ; m talking about rocky start coming out of the gates, but some of it was a bit controversial. LEMONTE: When you took office, all of the department heads were protected under civil service. You did not have the opportunity to bring in a team of department heads of your own selection. And so you became head of the bureaucracy that was not necessarily obligated to be very responsive to you, how did that transition early in the first term go with your becoming the chief administrating officer of a very large and complicated bureaucracy? ARRINGTON: I think it went fairly well ; we had decent cooperation from some of the department heads. I think we (inaudible) the police chief, basically worked with us, but he was just caught in the middle between a man who was trying to make changes and who was not popular with his (inaudible)--. LEMONTE: This was chief Myers, Bill Myers. ARRINGTON: And Bill was just torn, I mean--and I have to say Bill as far as I know was loyal to me as mayor, I mean he really was, but you know, I was pulling on one side and he was trying to be a professional and be loyal to the mayor, as he promised me he would (inaudible) and of course he&#039 ; s got his men who feel betrayed and so but I think Bill did right he stood there and when he--just so he could make it and he resigned. Because he just thought my policies, my style, my goals were things that he couldn&#039 ; t continue to support, particularly at the place I was trying to go. There was some (inaudible) we got (inaudible) didn&#039 ; t really give me any problem, but he wasn&#039 ; t very, very active in his support. But the truth is that I met with a few of them and then I brought in you know the staff, administrative assistant, executive administration and that dealt with the other department heads and then they met. I think things that we were able to do like meet with them, begin talking about goals, knowing what&#039 ; s going on, that constant hands-on kind of thing is what kept things moving. I think if we had left it sort of loose so to speak and had not been close and hands on where they had to talk with somebody, what was happening here today and you know we (inaudible) different story, but I think that was part of the strength of our administration was that we&#039 ; re coming in and we get (inaudible) and one or two other people who--I think our department heads respected. And they had to deal with them everyday. And I think quite frankly some of them probably find that something that they preferred to having to deal with me on a regular basis to be very frank. But it worked out well for us, it created a kind of comfort zone for them in a different transition period and we had some early problems you know we had Willie Davis questions and I had some corporate folks would talk to me about that. But quite frankly you know after you became the chief executive some of the corporate folks worried about you, they thought we were corrupt you down there. But things went fairly well and one thing that was important in addition to what Willie brought to the job and (inaudible) to own style and ability, was also-- nobody questioned your ability and nobody questioned your integrity and they felt that they could talk with you, I mean and that--I think that&#039 ; s important to have somebody there particularly at a time of transition where a new mayor and especially in this case, in a town where race has been a great preoccupation and everybody, you&#039 ; re making a change, it&#039 ; s very important that the white community, and especially the corporate community has somebody in that office that they have some confidence in. And somebody that they can come and complain to if they want to and feel that they&#039 ; re getting a message to city hall because somebody who has some influence there. I think that was a part of why we were able to get over those humps and move things along. After a while I don&#039 ; t think that some corporate people who never thought, who were suspicious or was always going on but, I don&#039 ; t thing we had a lot of questions about whether you know this was an administration that was incompetent, I mean I really don&#039 ; t and the real secret to that was that we--you and then we sort of put other people around. And you brought around--we got Virginia on and (inaudible) and you know if when you look back at it, we put some good people around there who could do their work and I think that helped us a lot and people start having confidence, especially the business community, started having some confidence in these folks around me. And that helped our administration there. One day I&#039 ; d like to hear what you have to say, to say about all of that. I&#039 ; ve been thinking about it and I sort of outlined some things and the manuscript that I&#039 ; m working on, and I talk about that, I tried to get in and sort of analyze and pick a part you know, what would have think that made a difference and then you know I feel quite frankly that I was just fortunate and lucky in many ways. Started about talking about my life, things just happen because I planned-- (inaudible) because I didn&#039 ; t know you were--I had no idea that you would ever come work in government, I mean I would have thought that you were right off. And I was talking with you about somebody and I find out that you were willing to consider it because--but I mean that was, for me it was just a lucky thing and it happened. And so I just sometimes when I think about some of the tough times and I think about all the breaks I got along the way, they just sort of fell in place somehow and it worked out well so that&#039 ; s good, and having you there for what eight years? LEMONTE: Eight years, eight fascinating wonderful years. ARRINGTON: It was good, I thought I was going to get you back (inaudible) like that, I never told you about that conversation. LEMONTE: (inaudible) difficult to in a reasonable period of time covered 20 years as mayor, but I think there are some areas that we could group questions and thoughts on your part and I guess one of them would be to return the topic of police and you&#039 ; ve talked about the professionalization of the police department a long-term process that began during your first term as council. I recall that the issue of the shooting policy was one of the kinds of important police issues that came up early in your tenure as mayor, I wonder if you could speak to that and other things related to policing that reflected your commitment to the professionalization of the department. ARRINGTON: And here again I have to give credit to Bill Myers, who was police chief when I became mayor. Because even on issues, really hot issues and shooting policies were about as hard as issues you could get, because Alabama at that time are still under the state of (inaudible) felon, where if a felony had been committed (inaudible) suspected that you might have committed it, under the law that officer can use deadly force against you. And that was a serious and very much flawed law, of course thank goodness, some years after we stepped out and changed the policy, the other case got to the supreme court, where you just couldn&#039 ; t shoot folks, except under some dire circumstances, life-threatening circumstances, but you got to the situation somebody could grab your television out of your house and go running and the officer would shoot him if he couldn&#039 ; t catch him. It changed a lot, it had a real impact on society as a whole, but I took on shooting policy early on because I thought we had to change the policy. That may have been the most divisive issue, the police things in this community and if you ever wondered to come back together or get (inaudible) have some cooperation. We really had to get the police issue under some control where it just always stays out there. It was a major issue that divided this community. And I think honestly some people (inaudible) but I honestly think we accomplished that. Even today I see people saying things (inaudible) about the police here and there on an abuse case, but I know from experience that it&#039 ; s nothing like it used to be. We took on that shooting policy and my police chief at the time, Bill Myers, didn&#039 ; t fight me on it. He worked with me on it, when I asked him to do the work, the surveys ; he put his folks to work on it. Now that was a very unpopular thing for him to do, especially with the FOP, but he did it and then I called together the corporate leaders at some point I don&#039 ; t think they were at all happy about it, but some of them cooperated, we put together a committee, we looked at it and we came up with a new policy, the police union, the FOP were never satisfied with it, but just by putting in our own policy, we changed, I think the behavior really endangering lives of police officers. Handful of police officer who had been so trigger-happy and the (inaudible). We changed that ; I think also the fact that we were going to stand firm on that policy and others, I mean we implemented policies along the way that we were responsible, some before I became mayor. The simple one like, if any force has to be used to apprehend an individual, you must take that individual to the hospital (inaudible) sounds like it&#039 ; s a little troublesome thing, but I mean it had a great impact on the behavior of the police department after a while because you got a medical trained individual. He looks at somebody and says, what has happened to him or her or what kind of injuries do they have, which is much different than somebody being thrown in jail without getting any medical attention. You also build a (inaudible) so if internal affairs (inaudible) what operators (inaudible). And the composite impact of all of those things, I think brought about some very positive changes, even with the shooting policies. Now I will tell, if the chief had not stood with us, (inaudible) if he just gotten out there and said this is not going to work and that&#039 ; s why I still give Bill Myers his due because he remained professional and stood with me on those things. We changed the shooting policy (inaudible) that wasn&#039 ; t good-- LEMONTE: And I think for those who want to know that story, Jimmy Franklin has done a good job of documenting it back to Birmingham book. So I think it exists as a carefully recorded story that-- ARRINGTON: I think he has done a good job of what happened then. But we&#039 ; ve been through that and we&#039 ; ve come in with the new chief, who ends up being a very controversial chief from the outside, but there was a product of a process and (inaudible). And the difference in viewpoints about how it ought to be done and the filling on the parts of some influential people in this community, that we were moving too fast and so forth. And I think people did the best thing they knew how to do. I think those who thought, no you know we at least got to get a police chief in here that the police officers respect and don&#039 ; t trample their morale, eventually I&#039 ; ve gotten to understand all of that, but again, you know we came through it, we came in with Arthur Deustch, there was always controversy, but we got some things accomplished. We became one of the few cities a few years ago that got accreditation I mean the number has increased, but there is still not a lot of accredited police departments in this country that on the accrediting association. And we have been accredited and had two or three reaccreditations visits since. I think our officers have been trained much better and I think it&#039 ; s because we were forced--that issue was always front burner and (inaudible) we were looking for ways to do what we thought was right, but at the same time they give the people the training. So I really do think that the police reform was major accomplishment of our administration, the police reform, not without pain and problems, but it happened in a city where that was really known a terrible police commissioner, powerful politician bull Connor. And so we moved the police reform away from the common thing to--what I think is a professional department that had some problems down there, but never really serious problems relatively speaking. So I chalk that up as one of the things that we accomplished. LEMONTE: Related to the police department and all other department but certainly more extensively were very basically was the question of affirmative action in the consent decree. At the time you entered office the question of discriminatory hiring practices was before the courts? ARRINGTON: Yes, that had been a hearing or two particularly I think on police in fact, not on other departments. The NAACP in one case I believe there was some employee that might have been in parks and rec somewhere had brought that case to court. But anyway, we moved (inaudible) with the encouragement of president Reagan&#039 ; s justice department to settle the case with (inaudible) consent decree, which was really fashioned, by the justice department. And it created more problems for us, all the issues that eventually came up about affirmative action and them somewhere around about that time, shortly or before or after the news media really made reverse discrimination a household word, I remember reading one national magazine, first big story I read about reverse discrimination and after a while I got to be a house hold word, discrimination. And so anytime they talked about affirmative action, you had that other side of the issue. I was helped with that--I kept the same law firm that David had hired to deal with that and that was Bradley Arab and we had an attorney who was pretty good working with us and guiding us on that. I was fortunate and David this too, David was able to influence the personnel board to let us have a director of personnel. It was Gordon Graham. And Gordon was very helpful and all of that because he had a background in it and he knew his way around and I think many times you know they had Gordon up there handling these issues and helping us shape the policy, somebody like who had had that same situation where we could not have had a personnel director, we still just had to deal directly with the board over there. We would have had a lot of havoc in what we were trying to do. LEMONTE: But it required the consent of the personnel board to have him-- ARRINGTON: Absolutely--. LEMONTE: You did not have the independent authority as mayor--? ARRINGTON: That&#039 ; s correct, but just to have somebody there who knew personnel and knew how to shape policies and how the personnel management was a plus and I was pleased. And we did good I thought, we lost a reverse discrimination case and I had never gotten over that, frankly even today, I think one of the little quirks that have in the judicial system is that kind of (inaudible) of that nature. The irony of the fact that in Birmingham in Jefferson county, where blacks were truly excluded, it was really the policy they excluded all the way through the personnel board on down, in a city renowned for its race problem, that Birmingham would end up being a city guilty of reverse discrimination. And the way that went down is something that I never been able to sort of digest, but we got caught in a time when the pendulum was swinging the other way, Reagan days, new court members, the court becoming more conservative, in fact the guy who had been the attorney general&#039 ; s office as an assistant attorney general down in Alabama had gotten on the (inaudible) court and was one of the key-- (inaudible) wrote that opinion which I had read 50 times and still doesn&#039 ; t make any sense in which he concluded that we were guilty of reverse discrimination. I (inaudible) people that make sense, he said we were right to try to do this and right to try to do that, but in doing that we, or course violated the rights of other people. I was also disturbed about it because, everything we had done, Sam Pointer had been the judge in the district court who had looked at it. And even in the firefighters&#039 ; case, he had reviewed every promotion, and of course he was just overruled in the final analysis on the (inaudible) and so that was a little disappointing, because we had a district judge who has said, okay, they had not promoted a single firefighter and he had looked at their records and said that was the right thing to do. By anyway, it still had a tremendous impact, I mean, it changed labor force, made it much more inclusive, we went from a labor force of 12 to 15 % black, we came in and when we left, you know about half of the labor force was black. We went from a labor force that had one black department head and I guess during our time in office, we must have hired about 14 and we ended up with about 12 when we left. We didn&#039 ; t open up as fast, but we made a difference there. For example in the police department, I think they might have had one, may have been two women sergeants when I became mayor and when we left, women were moving all the way up to serving deputy chief, we didn&#039 ; t but one chief yet, but we gotten a few women in the fire department, still that&#039 ; s been a tough nut to crack. But women were largely in clerical positions back in 1979 and 1980 in Birmingham. And we promoted--we changed a lot of that, a lot of women were promoted in all departments. We didn&#039 ; t do as well as we might have done about when the department heads, but we did get two or three women in department head positions. I&#039 ; m pleased about that, I think--out of that affirmative action, the program under that consent decree, we were able to create the most (inaudible) wise and racial-wise the most diverse (inaudible) force in the state of Alabama, any government in the state of Alabama, I think including the state itself. That&#039 ; s an accomplishment I&#039 ; m very proud of. I&#039 ; ve always wondered though, I will tell you, even while we were carrying out the affirmative action promotions under that consent decree, the one thing I always wondered about was at what point do you stop affirmative action? It always stays in the back of my mind, when I would talk with Alexander who was a lawyer over there at Bradley and (inaudible) I would raise that question. How long do we do this? Because I thought there was going to be a breaking point, at some point, I&#039 ; m not a lawyer obviously, so I don&#039 ; t know the legal argument. But if you say you&#039 ; re going to correct something in affirmative action is the remedy, and I speak solely just within a city, within any organization. I guess to be a question--if you accomplish and we were accomplishing all of our goals, then when do you stop it. And of course we never--I don&#039 ; t think we&#039 ; ve answered the question yet, I mean reverse discrimination created some problems for us and I think they may now have paid off the last employee reverse discrimination. I know when mayor Kincaid came in, they still had several, that&#039 ; s because we couldn&#039 ; t negotiable settlements. Some of them wanted more, but we tried to settle with as many as we could, but the question still is, how long do you stay--does the court keep you in the consent decree and so forth. In fact I think that the Achilles Hill in the affirmative action program and that&#039 ; s it. But that&#039 ; s why I think America finally--society as a whole finally, we being handled with reverse discrimination and that--where I think a lot of the attitudes finally changed and opinions of some (inaudible) I may be totally wrong but even when I was mayor I was thinking about that. I even said it to Gordon a few times, you know, okay we&#039 ; re achieving these goals now how long are going to continue to do this. And I have to admit, I was speaking then from the perspective of an administrator, he knew that there was still resentment about it because we felt we had accomplished a lot of it and we thought that if we could say, we achieved our goals, the affirmative action program just go on hiring, it would have some impact on morale and get some of the bitter disputes that were ongoing about promotions and all of that. So it&#039 ; s just amazing that once you&#039 ; re in a position, how it makes you-- you&#039 ; re force to think about some things. I many times rethought the whole minority business loan program you know, you begin to sort of understand arguments whether you agree totally or not with some of the people who (inaudible) very simple question, why do you take some guy that has terrible credit and couldn&#039 ; t do this, that other and can&#039 ; t get a loan from the bank and then you take him and give him taxpayers&#039 ; money and you look around you got a 60% rate of (inaudible). And yet, I mean it takes you to that point. And you had answers that were really not that simple, but I tell you, it really makes--you think about it. And now affirmative action program, many times I sat and I thought questions like that. LEMONTE: When you left office, were there still affirmative action requirements in place in city employment? ARRINGTON: Yeah, promotion goals are still in place. LEMONTE: As a matter of--? ARRINGTON: Even after the reverse discrimination thing, it&#039 ; s still there. And I rather no--it has (inaudible) formally ended you know, there have been few cases, I mean like school cases, where the courts have finally said that schools were integrated, I mean essentially not been the most segregated (inaudible), but they ended the program. I don&#039 ; t think they done that at city yet. I know they hadn&#039 ; t done that before I left. Now that, you know, I think a natural question might be, you were chief executive you thought that was time you know, why didn&#039 ; t you move to do it. I don&#039 ; t know, I thought about it and but we got caught up in the reverse discrimination thing just wouldn&#039 ; t go away. I would go up and went all the way to Supreme Court. I went up there, sat in and listened to the argument at the Supreme Court. The only time I&#039 ; ve been in there. And then of course, the Supreme Court rules against us in terms of the right of these people to pursue the reverse discrimination and then we worked through that two or three years and we eventually lose and of course that was the end of it. But anyway, it just raises a lot of questions of how you deal with past injustices and how do, in some way make the solutions somewhat more acceptable to other people who were in there. And I think one way is that if you limit the times much more things can be done, I don&#039 ; t know. Anyway, it was an interesting thing, but I think we accomplished something despite difficulties and that always happens despite problems. And I also felt that the next mayor coming in would probably be able to build a better, a stronger relationship with employees and employee rep groups, because that mayor would not have to go through some of those vice that we had to go through. I&#039 ; m not sure that has happened at city hall, but at least that next mayor came in with a cleaner slate, didn&#039 ; t have to fight the minority business thing, all of that (inaudible) affirmative action kind of things that ended up with people at opposite ends of the spectrum and people fighting and people feeling that they&#039 ; ve been mistreated one way or another, passed over and all of that. So I thought, as I was getting ready to leave office, well the next mayor wouldn&#039 ; t have to deal with a lot of that. He&#039 ; d already be viewed and sort of pigeonholed as a person whose this way or the other. I don&#039 ; t know how it&#039 ; s worked out, but for Birmingham, that&#039 ; s my question in my mind, affirmative action was the right thing to do. And I think that its overall results have been positive for us. And I believe anybody doing that analysis would probably reach the same conclusion today. And I believe Birmingham is one of the better examples, really what has happened in affirmative action, what has happened about inclusiveness of people and the labor force. And keep in mind that we didn&#039 ; t stop just with our labor force, we reached out and well we had some debates with associated general contractors and some fights. We eventually ended up with some agreements with them. I don&#039 ; t know how successful it has been, but we reached a point where they started working with us rather than against us. We got the Birmingham plan put in place and the Birmingham plan, in my opinion ; it&#039 ; s a significant accomplishment. I don&#039 ; t think it was a productive as it could have been, because quite frankly I don&#039 ; t think we ever got really the mentality among a (inaudible) minority contractors, they were going to get a set aside, but with all those rough balance, one very pleasing moment for me was one day when six young black contractors came in my office. And they came not to complain about what was going on, but they thanked and to tell me what had happened to their businesses and these weren&#039 ; t guys just only--one guy was a (inaudible) man, they were all in different construction trades. But they were all successful and they were thanking me, not only for what I had done, but because Auburn University was offering courses and they were taking those courses. And they were telling me how some of those courses, management courses and so forth had enabled them to improve their own skills and run their businesses and how pleased they were, plus they were asking, also part of the reason they came, for us to sponsor some other courses that Auburn had down there that they wanted. And that was a rare thing because most of the times when minority contractors came to see me, they came to complain about something that wasn&#039 ; t going on. (Inaudible) were very good, there were six young black guys and they were really good--. LEMONTE: These were courses offered under the Birmingham Plan? ARRINGTON: Under the Birmingham plan, DCIA having arrangements with Auburn University and they sent someone in and they offered the courses. And they may still do that. But the difference was here were six young guys, number one they were young and apparently fairly well-educated I don&#039 ; t really know what their backgrounds were, but fairly well-educated, well-spoken, who took advantage of this and there are some guys who don&#039 ; t have that background and don&#039 ; t have the determination and don&#039 ; t do the work and you know they really don&#039 ; t benefit that much from it, they don&#039 ; t see much coming from it. But you have to keep in mind, that things like minority contracts for the first 100 years that this, the city of Birmingham, there was nothing, no business going to blacks of any degree. David started trying a program, he tried to put about a million dollars in contracts for blacks. But we really got caught up on front ; there were a lot of fronts. I&#039 ; m not sure if we ever got rid of all of them, but we got rid of a lot of those fronts and so when we started talking about, (inaudible) talking about, well we&#039 ; ve done 70m dollars worth of business with black firms. I would guarantee that most of that was done with those firms and very few fronts. So their accomplishments in that area--. LEMONTE: What was the origin of the Birmingham plan, and are you able to think of a moment when that came clearly forward as a (inaudible) policy possibility or did it evolve over a long period of time? ARRINGTON: (inaudible) it evolved, but it&#039 ; s like something that hit you, I had been in and out of court with the associated general contractors, it was a losing battle every time because the state law was--without changing state law, it&#039 ; s hard to do what we were trying to do. Even with the best lawyers trying to rewrite the city code on some things, the state law says you got to take the best bid, the lowest bid and so (inaudible) caught well, small businesses can&#039 ; t bid, very few of them can bid. We tried everything we knew, trying to break the packages down, smaller, but that really didn&#039 ; t work. The only thing that was going to work, the strong general contractors were going to somehow have to associate some minority contractors with them. We eventually got two or three of them that were willing to do it, but a lot of them didn&#039 ; t, some of them just did it, just as nuisance, they did it and the people working with them didn&#039 ; t benefit, they got that money, but they didn&#039 ; t learn a lot of things. And then we tried the--was that the university program we tried over there, it was a (inaudible) project. I think we tried to do this sort of a case study to see what was going on, but what happened with the Birmingham plan, following the court thing, I just started thinking about it, the fact that we weren&#039 ; t getting much visible support from the corporate community and I really sat home one night and sort of wrote up a thing about the Birmingham plan, a statement I wanted to make. I must have spoken with (inaudible) or somebody to invite the people in over there at Birmingham-Southern and said basically what I had written down and asked them to get off the sideline and get (inaudible). Surprisingly their response was positive ; there was a positive response. I don&#039 ; t know how much they knew about what I was going to say, I don&#039 ; t know if I would go into any details with Neal about it, except that&#039 ; s what I wanted to talk about. But I look back up on it and say you know, they put two or three people in place and say alright, let&#039 ; s start working it. So that was a good faith effort on the part of the business community and it allowed us to put in place the Birmingham plan. But not only, just really--out of frustration, but it came in on those fights and I thought we (inaudible) the corporate community and so that&#039 ; s how we came out with the Birmingham plan. LEMONTE: You mentioned earlier that minority business program which really gets it at the time, two questions I&#039 ; d like to ask to respond to, one is sort of your notion of what the world of city government properly ought to be in the economic development area, because I meet many people would say this just isn&#039 ; t a function of city government to be worrying about business success or failure. And then the question of the evolution of the city&#039 ; s program away from the simple loan to more complicated things, it seems to me the city learned a lot by its trial and sometimes that failure in those areas? ARRINGTON: Yeah, I think we did learn, we certainly during the loan area, we got into an area first of all we wouldn&#039 ; t have ever been able to get into the state constitution, but with the help of the federal government and the federal funds and the attorney general&#039 ; s opinion that said we could use federal funds for loans, but we couldn&#039 ; t use city funds for loans. But you know we got off into that area. When the funds sort of dried up, we were fortunate because we had some good times with (inaudible) things and so we had (inaudible) repayments coming in and every year they bring back almost a half million dollars that we put into a loan pool to keep it going. We then eventually were able to become a bit more selective in how we make loans and who we made them to and we make better loans to people who in most instances ended up succeeding whereas earlier a large number of our people were failing, I mean they got money, small loans and it lasted a little while. I think they just failed, so we learned as time went along, I think that there is a role for government to play because there&#039 ; s a broader issue of justice and there&#039 ; s the issue of what history has been. And so I think there is a role to play and if it is a government that represents a population that has been significantly impacted by the past practices, I think the responsibility of that government is even greater to try to find out what is our proper role. I just feel today that the loan program per se which most small business including minority businesses would say is the biggest problem access to capital. I still today question the loan thing is really the role for us. I do think that stuff we do through (inaudible) to help people and to offer them training and to make sure people know how the system works. People who really want to put together a package and want to be competitive and so forth. I think all of those are very legitimate kinds of things and the better we can do them, the more effective we will be--. LEMONTE: BCIA is Birmingham Construction Industry Authority--? ARRINGTON: And I think the more effective those people are in doing that, the more successful we will be. I think you have to understand when you&#039 ; re doing it though that, your success rate is not going to be real high, when you&#039 ; re dealing things like contractors, particularly when there has been a history of most of the minority contractors really not being formally trained and a lot of them, it&#039 ; s a trade they picked up. But even there were those who were except help, I mean we have to (inaudible) from how to handle books to how to do payroll, how to stay out of trouble with the IRS, but some of them were too strapped to do it and some of them just sort of threw their hands up, but there are legitimate roles to play. If I were starting over and had my choice I, wouldn&#039 ; t totally cut out the loan program, though it troubles me some, but I would make the requirements a little bit more stringent and there ought to be some reasonable expectations at folk and succeed. If you&#039 ; re going to put a small amount of money in something--we eventually put in place some good support mechanisms--I mean Susan&#039 ; s program, what is that called. It&#039 ; s an incubator type thing, I think it&#039 ; s been one of the better ones that you would find any place and it really evolved from what we tried to do in the city and what the business community did in partnership with us. That&#039 ; s how we got a successful incubator program for startup businesses for small businesses. So those were some successes, we tried to do things like even help minority contractors, number one to organize as a unit and number two, to understand even the political system but in one area we failed and I think even today, the city probably still funds the minority contractors and gives them a staff and three or four people. But I tried, I went to meeting myself and I tried to get them to do things like, I even once had the city put up the money for them to hire attorneys and I tried to get them to do simple things like lobbying, the associated general contractors and the other (inaudible) contracting group was making a move to change the law, about how you get your license to stiffen the exam. And I tried awfully hard to get them to--number one lobby--just bring in the black legislatures and number two to send somebody to Montgomery and they acted never get them to do it. And somebody might say that isn&#039 ; t important, but when you look at the system as a whole and you know how it works, and you know where the laws are made and the laws tell you everything--and the government really tells you everything in this country when you get through examining it, how it&#039 ; s doing and who is going to be certified and all. And they could never see that as a part or root of their problem and we just could do it better. But dealing with building contractors in particular is a very difficult area when dealing with minority builder contractor. I think you get a few, when we started out, we probably had one or two general contractors and when I left, who were minorities, when I left office we might have had about six of them that were doing fairly well, still operating. We never wavered a bill, you know a hugely successful minority contractor firm, say a Russell company or something, and we were never able to do that. But we had a lot of experience that I can talk to some people about what she shouldn&#039 ; t do (inaudible) work in some instances. LEMONTE: One of the projects that David Vann had begun was the commitment to downtown Birmingham the revitalization of downtown, would you comment on your views of downtown and what your administrations did over the years on behalf of downtown Birmingham and your assessment of success or failure? ARRINGTON: I really think we overall got off to a great start in downtown. You can&#039 ; t fully appreciate if you can&#039 ; t recall what downtown was like in &#039 ; 79. Even today we didn&#039 ; t see the long term affect of some of the things, but I look back at records and see the number of buildings that were renovated for example downtown and I look at it today, some of the renovations didn&#039 ; t keep businesses there. Of course, they are going to lofts and things of that sort. But we did a large number of building renovation downtown addition to new construction. I think our downtown effort though was pretty good. We&#039 ; re a long way from getting the kind of mix that gives downtown the character ; it has to have a new character. Making the transition from a downtown where retail dominated retail market, huge department stores to one that&#039 ; s got a totally different character, especially in a town where folk had lived downtown, we had to try to go through that change. But we did a lot of things that were positive to downtown, however people measure it, I mean you look at office. How many new office buildings came downtown. We had a fair labor (inaudible) we got downtown and we negotiated and it&#039 ; s a great leap from where we started, block 60 and the failure of block 60, we learned some things from that and we were able to negotiate and use our incentives a little bit better and to get some buildings downtown. We haven&#039 ; t been able to change from being a workday place, but or course we got a lot of jobs into downtown and what we called the central business district. The role of Michael (inaudible) and operation new Birmingham, that road was very important in what we&#039 ; ve been able to do downtown. I think we&#039 ; re sort of halfway there. We started things like the McWane center ; we have not seen the full impact of that yet. One day, I&#039 ; m still hopeful that we&#039 ; ll complete that and that it&#039 ; s going to anchor changes around there, hopeful (inaudible) talking with Jeffrey (inaudible) two nights ago and I&#039 ; m hopeful that he&#039 ; s going to succeed with his plan for the Pizitz thing. But we put in place a sort of nucleus for some good things to happen but when you think about, we did things like parking decks downtown, during the time we were in office that 20 years, it was done four or five parking decks, started down there--the last one, the bank of Birmingham, you think about the one across from the federal courthouse, we did the one behind the finance center, we did the Birmingham news parking deck, we did the second ave parking deck. That was all a part of course trying to reinforce the survival of downtown and provide the parking. But even when you look at the buildings, we fought some battles, we got the new federal courthouse, it was going to be downtown, but we got it where it is, over the oppositions of the federal judges who didn&#039 ; t want it down there, because it backed right up to the black business district. I now see that at least there&#039 ; s an office building going up diagonally across the street from the federal courthouse down on 4th ave. And then I forget her name, Sloss people building behind the federal reserve, that&#039 ; s a battle we sort of lost, I mean we didn&#039 ; t lose federal reserve, we kept them in the city but we lost them downtown, after we gave them all the help in the world to get the (inaudible) finance. But now I see Cathy and her associates, the Sloss group coming to the office complex there. I had a conversation ; just yesterday I had lunch with Elias Hendrix, talking with him about his business. And here&#039 ; s a young black couple (inaudible) business and they were totally excited and working with people like Sloss, expanding their businesses, taking in additional kids, he was just (inaudible) we don&#039 ; t get the--a lot of the kids can&#039 ; t afford to go to (inaudible) learning center or to the church, (inaudible) operated by the church because it cost a lot. But there are a lot of secretaries who have kids and you know people making less money, they can get business from black and white. And now they&#039 ; re getting involved in the actual plan (inaudible) they&#039 ; re negotiating with them right now about the number of places they&#039 ; re going to provide for folks in the office, I mean that&#039 ; s a (inaudible) listening to him talk about that, I mean I really felt good about it, because people are dealing with their children and they&#039 ; re willing to get their children and these people have done well enough that the folks who were making a big investment, developing the thing is talking with them about how we&#039 ; re going to meet the needs of some the tenants who are going to fill these buildings and you know--can we contract (inaudible) for so many spaces. That, to me, I didn&#039 ; t tell in all of this but to me that&#039 ; s a message on about a lot of change in Birmingham, I mean the kids are the one of the most important things we got, you know and when you can get folks to the point where they&#039 ; re taking them, they think they feel safe enough to put their kids in-that you got a quality enough thing. That (inaudible) who operates it in (inaudible) but they run a good one, but for Birmingham, that&#039 ; s a message up. So I think that&#039 ; s happening, I see an office building going up on Concord, I worry a little now about two that ought to be going up and I don&#039 ; t know where the new administration is, where they mayor is, unfortunately we had no communication at all. No transition, you know, I was there for 20 years and then the new mayor comes in and he decides that he and his people don&#039 ; t want to have any communication with this administration. But you know I worry about some federal things, some social security payments--(talking already in progress). ARRINGTON: Tom Williams saying that we put in place, but (inaudible) still coming together, the university&#039 ; s impact is still felt there and when I read that the parliament house, that it&#039 ; s going to finally be revitalized and redone. I think downtown is--they have reasons to be optimistic, though there&#039 ; s much to be done and I think that our work over 20 years, contributed some towards that. I also think that we bought time, our work in things like annexation that we probably talked some about, and what we did to provided a source of revenue for this city and for the neighborhoods to do a lot of things, not only looking at incentives downtown and we could afford to do that because had we been so strapped for money we would have just pushing every cent there and no matter where it came from. But it gave us a little breathing room to look elsewhere ; it enabled us to maintain some services through our neighborhoods, even the older neighborhoods, the lower income neighborhoods, our people don&#039 ; t think about that. But much of that revenue that (inaudible) services coming in from what we did out on 280 and places like that, it&#039 ; s coming in from the Summit and HEALTHSOUTH, and Grandview and Perimeter Square, Brookhighland and those are all parts of our economic packages and we tried, mentioned though at this point, (inaudible) with downtown is that a lot of those places we tried to get--I should have tried to get Richard Scrushy downtown. But that failing and with us making our case, I think they felt, at least some obligation to try to stay within the city and they did and I think we had some successes in many cases. We didn&#039 ; t get them downtown, I believe downtown will make a comeback, but we still got a little way to go. I think the image of downtown is still a negative one and we still got to find some ways to get people down there after five o&#039 ; clock. And I don&#039 ; t know what&#039 ; s going to happen with the convention center. I think we built in for ourselves a problem and a challenge, a long time ago when we decided to put the convention center there, or when we ran the interstate right through the middle of it and while only people who were planners and other people considered themselves to be urban know ledges were quick to see what that disadvantage is, it&#039 ; s still a disadvantage. Is there going to be dome downtown, what impact is that going to be, I don&#039 ; t know quite frankly do not know. I think this would a positive for downtown and when I studied what had happened with domes and saw what cities had used domed stadiums to do to revitalize their downtown or some old area (inaudible) I thought it would be ideal to get one here, it would do the same, but I don&#039 ; t think we would be able to sell people on that. The recent legislation provides some money, sort of puts it on life support for a while to see what else is going to happen with it. But our downtown is still in a position where we can achieve goals and making a model downtown, we may be decade away from doing all of that, but things are still happening downtown. LEMONTE: That was a initiative that was begun under David Vann, was it one that you and he worked on together or was one that you inherited as a mayoral initiative from him? ARRINGTON: Well I don&#039 ; t, virtually downtown thing was a--something that--we didn&#039 ; t work much on that together. LEMONTE: The Costa head or the Pedro Costa appointment was one that he made as mayor without a great deal of discussion with council? ARRINGTON: I&#039 ; m not sure David made the Pedro Costa appointment. My mind may be playing tricks on me. I know when we did the 19th street project, which we hoped would sort of duplicate the Birmingham (inaudible) thing and it just never happened and the 7million dollars that we put into the project, that just went no where. I think I had come into office and I remember talking with Nina about that and I don&#039 ; t know if David--I had talked with David at all, but I do remember him having an extended conversation with Nina about when we try to select somebody, whether we should use Costa or not and you know--her feeling at the time I remember, I say well these are people who have some faith in downtown, but at that time he had brought up all these properties downtown and she thought (inaudible) I think you&#039 ; re, that&#039 ; s where we ought to take the risk with people who believe there&#039 ; s a future downtown. And I think that might have been right after David, I won&#039 ; t say it didn&#039 ; t come from some momentum. LEMONTE: Now I thought he had made the initial appointment, Pedro Costa and demerit that had-- ARRINGTON: You may be right. LEMONTE: And that the early report came out some time shortly after you entered office, but-- ARRINGTON: You may be right, I just don&#039 ; t remember, but I do remember--when did we do the block 60? LEMONTE: It was early, &#039 ; 80, &#039 ; 81 I think. ARRINGTON: I thought about that many times and I just wish I had known a little bit more and I felt that maybe we could salvaged that, but we didn&#039 ; t lose it completely, we got the bank building, I think we could have gotten more but you know we just--it was a learning experience, we paid some prices. LEMONTE: You mentioned annexation that core commitment to downtown have been balanced by the concern for the outer area, how does that annexation strategy develop and what was the rationale behind it as you undertook it? ARRINGTON: I really didn&#039 ; t know much about that from David, or course even after I became mayor, David still spearheaded annexation plans. The first time we really gotten in a real conversation with David about annexation and began to appreciate what the policy ought to be. Of course when David was mayor and Blue Cross went to Riverchase and David cut off the city business with Blue Cross and I gotten into some conversations with him then and it got to be far arranging as things often times get to be with David talking about things like that. And he started talking about annexation and then, (inaudible) it was very interesting and he called me one Saturday and came over to the house and wanted to talk about annexing, that we ought to do this annexation, that&#039 ; s when we were going to go out to Birmingport, with that annexation. And I was valuable to David at that point because I was at the particular time, a very visible and popular black political official there, influential. And David had come up with this scheme and he was explaining it to me about this (inaudible) and how to annex these tax-exempt the annexation had to do them. And explain to me how we could get--in most cases there were black community groups that didn&#039 ; t have services and couldn&#039 ; t get them from the areas. And so first when we took office it was Booker Heights to bring in all of that area, because what David&#039 ; s plan was is that we were going to take Birmingport and make it a major industrial park and in order to do (inaudible) he always had the idea that we&#039 ; re going to do a canal all the way downtown, we talked about all of that, but (inaudible) was the idea that he had that I thought was workable. LEMONTE: And this is was when he was in office? ARRINGTON: Yeah, it started when he was in office. And that was set if we could work successfully annex this are, he drew this thing all the way out, past Maytown and we would have all of the Birmingport, it would be in Birmingham. And while there are few warehouses and things out there now and a fair amount of stuff is shipped out on barges and so forth. It goes entirely into the Tombigbee waterway and all of the Birmingport. We could more than quadruple what was going on if we were really set a major industrial park right there on that riverfront right on the port there. And David convinced me that was what to do and so our first joint effort was to Booker Heights annexation which we lost by one vote because there were only about 50 folks to vote and they needed the services, they were in unincorporated area and they wanted some services from Birmingham and there was an all-black community and David wanted to know if felt I could convince them to come in, which I thought I could. And we hooked with a minister out there in the area and we thought we were going to--surely carry it--David said Tom (inaudible) got to the minister and lo and behold we did find out before election minister had changed sides instead of encouraging folks out there to annex, he was--Tom had gotten to him, Tom was now on the county commission and he was getting them to work against it. And they beat us, they came out like 26-25 I mean lost by one, but that&#039 ; s where I got my initiation into with him, and then we just started talking, even when David was mayor, about other annexations, we might do. I don&#039 ; t think we got around to another major annexation while he was still in office, but I in effect carried out some of the David plans when he came back to work-- LEMONTE: Let&#039 ; s stop. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RArringtonJr2001a.xml RArringtonJr2001a.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dr. Richard Arrington Jr. (2001) (1 of 2) Description An account of the resource Dr. Richard Arrington Jr. discusses growing up in Birmingham, his educational career, his time on the city council and his early years as Mayor. This interview is continued on July 24, 2001. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 20010723A Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Pitts, Luscious Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka Birmingham (Ala.). Mayor Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2001-07-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/15877ab4026d5e6b678fa333f631e39e.jpg 636aadb18a054758b2db6fec144f9c69 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Edward S. LaMonte Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Richard Arrington Jr. OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RArringtonJr2001b.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Birmingham (Ala.). Mayor Bell, William OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 July 24, 200 Richard Arrington Jr. (2 of 2) Interviewed on July 24, 2001 20010724A 3:57:22 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Jess Holdnak Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham MAPS: Metropolitan Area Projects Strategy Birmingham (Ala.). Mayor Bell, William Dr. Richard Arrington Jr. Edward S. LaMonte Video 1:|11(7)|25(1)|37(11)|49(2)|60(1)|76(11)|91(5)|102(9)|113(12)|128(12)|142(5)|154(8)|165(7)|177(3)|188(5)|197(9)|210(8)|224(12)|234(5)|245(10)|258(4)|270(10)|284(3)|295(1)|307(4)|322(1)|332(10)|348(1)|360(15)|375(8)|388(13)|402(4)|415(8)|429(4)|443(3)|455(11)|468(13)|482(5)|492(3)|506(11)|519(6)|530(6)|543(3)|554(17)|571(3)|586(6)|601(9)|610(2)|620(12)|636(14)|647(13)|656(4)|667(2)|683(3)|697(2)|709(14)|722(9)|737(12)|751(13)|765(13)|779(4)|792(9)|808(2)|822(3)|833(2)|844(10)|854(4)|863(12)|877(3)|889(3)|903(13)|919(7)|936(2)|949(6)|963(11)|979(2)|994(2)|1003(3)|1014(8)|1022(9)|1032(7)|1044(8)|1059(3)|1071(13)|1082(15)|1095(9)|1111(2)|1123(6)|1136(12)|1148(1)|1166(3)|1177(1)|1189(4)|1201(5)|1215(13)|1230(3)|1244(6)|1258(13)|1273(9)|1285(1)|1300(4)|1314(2)|1328(9)|1342(1)|1354(5)|1369(8)|1385(1)|1405(7)|1415(14)|1429(9)|1448(9)|1461(11)|1475(5)|1492(4)|1507(10)|1517(4)|1531(15)|1543(1)|1557(6)|1569(3)|1580(9)|1592(2)|1603(5)|1615(1)|1627(14)|1639(15)|1657(7)|1667(1)|1678(12)|1690(5)|1702(13)|1716(6)|1729(3)|1740(4)|1749(3)|1759(5)|1771(1)|1783(11)|1796(5)|1806(5)|1819(1)|1831(9)|1849(8)|1858(2)|1870(9)|1884(1)|1897(6)|1909(1)|1920(11)|1931(9)|1945(12)|1956(8)|1967(8)|1977(14)|1990(6)|2003(5)|2016(3)|2028(15)|2046(4)|2057(9)|2071(9)|2083(14)|2097(7)|2111(13)|2125(8)|2138(5)|2149(7)|2161(9)|2171(2)|2188(8)|2199(8)|2215(2)|2223(7)|2234(6)|2250(4)|2263(10)|2279(2)|2290(12)|2306(4)|2321(4)|2334(5)|2349(13)|2361(12)|2379(1)|2393(15)|2409(11)|2427(8)|2444(2)|2454(6)|2466(13)|2484(1)|2499(11)|2512(9)|2525(5)|2538(1)|2548(4)|2560(17)|2574(6)|2588(5)|2596(9)|2607(12)|2623(1)|2635(10)|2645(11)|2655(6)|2668(6)|2679(8)|2695(6)|2708(5)|2725(4)|2737(4)|2752(1)|2765(14)|2775(9)|2785(2)|2796(13)|2808(3)|2817(1)|2829(4)|2841(10)|2855(2)|2869(1)|2881(7)|2893(1)|2908(13)|2922(10)|2933(5)|2943(11)|2958(13)|2971(2)|2980(15)|2993(9)|3005(4)|3016(13)|3030(14)|3044(14) 0 https://youtu.be/b2WtB0FCznc YouTube video English 0 Annexation:Major Areas L: I believed we ended up yesterday with the early discussion of annexation, how that developed, what its importance was and I think you were at the first efforts that occurred under David Vann? Dr. Arrington talks about annexations in the Birmingham area which began under David Vann as Mayor while Arrington was in the city council. The annexations begin with Booker Heights attempt and continued to communities such as Dolomite, Birmingport, 280 area, Oxmoor. Birmingport ; Booker Heights ; Dolomite ; Hwy 280 ; Vann, David Annexation (Municipal government) ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1545 Annexation: Relationship with David Vann and Relationship with Community L: You described a relationship with the man you defeated in 1979, in really quite a remarkable way that apparently you and he were able to work very closely with one another on important city projects, after you took office and he brought an expertise to your administration that was probably unavailable anywhere else I would think that our keen topic of annexation, I would think that’s almost unique in governmental politics to have the winner and the loser function so closely as a team, did it strike you that way at the time and did you David ever reflect on the irony of your careers? Dr. Arrington talks about working with David Vann on annexation, working with communities to annex, and working through the legal system to annex. Alabama. Supreme Court ; Hoover (Ala.) ; Vann, David Annexation (Municipal government) ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1914 Annexation: Relationship with Business When David immediately became mayor, began to try to offer him incentives to stay in, applied pressure to these big businesses not to leave the city. If they left the city like Blue Cross, he immediately cancelled the insurance at Blue Cross ; I mean did a number of things. In fact, David made that decision that we would do that, and then he lost and then it really fell on my shoulders (inaudible). Dr. Arrington talks about dealing with businesses while working on annexations. Blue Cross ; Mountain Brook (Ala.) ; National Liberty Corporation ; Vestavia Hills (Ala.) Annexation (Municipal government) ; Birmingham (Ala.) 2419 Mayor: Birmingham Schools L: You mentioned Birmingham schools in relation to the residential developments. What (inaudible) you look back over your tenure in public life, what comments would you make about education, the importance of education, what was done or might have been done, certainly any thoughts you have about education in the future in Birmingham? Dr. Arrington talks about his lack of progress and missed opportunity with education while mayor. He also talks about what he sees as the future of Birmingham schools. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Public Schools (Birmingham, Ala.) 2990 Mayor: MAPS (Metropolitan Area Projects Strategy) L: You put public education generally in a negative column, another area that I suspect you would put in the same category was the maps effort, and I wonder if you could talk about what the thinking was behind maps, the importance you attach to it and you reflections on that experience? Dr. Arrington talks about MAPS: the Metropolitan Area Projects Strategy and its attempt to create a domed stadium facility in Downtown Birmingham. He discusses the plan's failure. He also talk about the attempt to create intergovernmental cooperation. HealthSouth (Firm) ; MAPS: Metropolitan Area Projects Strategy ; McWane Center ; Scrushy, Richard Birmingham (Ala.) 3763 Mayor: Suburbanization and City Fragmentation L: My recollection is you are one of the very few public officials who had said over the years that you would support a consolidation of local governments where some major restructuring of local government, there hasn’t appeared to be a base of support for that, what are your reflections in what have been your experiences with governing the central city of a rather fragmented metropolis in what do you see as the possibilities in the short-run for overcoming some of that fragmentation, if there are such possibilities? Dr. Arrington talks about dealing with a fragmented metro area and issues with suburbanization. He talks about eh economic impact of suburbanization and the political factors involved. He also talk about his pessimistic view of dealing with this issue in the future. Charlotte (N.C.) ; Chattanooga (Tenn.) ; Homewood (Ala.) ; Jacksonville (Fla.) ; Mountain Brook (Ala.) ; Suburbanization Birmingham (Ala.) 4729 Politics: Jefferson County Citizens Coalition L: Your political career is often linked to the Jefferson County Citizens Coalition, could you talk about its history, how it was organized, what it did and your thoughts about the coalition as, at the time you left office in it’s continuing role in local government. Dr. Arrington talks about creating the Jefferson County Citizens Coalition as an umbrella group touring together black citizen's leagues and political organizations. He talks about starting the organization to help mobilize the black vote and black political power. He discusses membership and practices. He also mentions some of the challenges the group tried to address. Adams, Oscar ; Bonds ; Clemons, EW ; Democratic Party (Ala.) ; Jackson, Walter ; Jefferson County Citizens Coalition African American political activists ; Birmingham (Ala.) 6779 Mayor: Birmingham City Districts L: You mentioned the coalition responding to the creation of districts, when you first ran for mayor, the council was elected at large and then the change of districts occurred, I guess in the early 90s perhaps— A: 80s. L: What difference did that make for you as mayor, particularly in terms of the city council and its relationship to you and how do assess overall the moved districts? Dr. Arrington talks about the switch to city council districts and how that impacted city politics. City council districts ; Jefferson County Citizens Coalition Birmingham (Ala.) ; City council members 7270 Mayor: Campaigns L: You ran for mayor five times, did the nature of your campaigns change over that period of time, or did you retain basically the same campaign style? Dr. Arrington talks about campaigning through five mayoral elections. He also discusses what percentage of the white vote he was able to win and why. white vote Birmingham (Ala.). Mayor ; Campaign organization and tactics 8037 Mayor: Relationship with Media L: The media topic seems to me an important one and I guess a complicated topic, radio, TV, press, historically white press, black press, but could you talk some about your relationships with media and the importance of media in shaping the political environment? Dr. Arrington talks about how he was portrayed as Mayor in local media. Birmingham News ; Townsend, Vincent ; Vann, David Birmingham (Ala.). Mayor ; News media coverage of . . . 8592 Mayor: FBI Investigation L: You mentioned briefly, the campaign that occurred during a year when you were under investigation by the FBI? A: Yeah. L: That’s a long and complicated and I’m sure unpleasant topic for you, but would you discuss that and what your view is to why it happened and what its impact was you as mayor and maybe as a person? Dr. Arrington tell the story of the FBI investigation into supposed political corruption and eventually an accusation of evasion. He was not found guilty of any crime. Bell, William ; Corruption investigation ; Davis, Willie ; Dixon, Joe ; Peters, Marjorie Birmingham (Ala.). Mayor 10457 Mayor: FBI Investigation--Impact L: Aside from the impact on you personally and family and friends, how did it influence your ability to function as mayor and to campaign as mayor? Dr. Arrington talks about the impact of the FBI investigation on his career as mayor. He mentions feeling like there was a sense of suspicion toward him, especially from the white community and business community. Corruption investigation Birmingham (Ala.). Mayor 11612 Mayor: Birmingham Civil Rights Institute L: Let’s turn to the topic of the institute, this interview is part of its Oral History Program, but I think everyone connected with the institute would acknowledge that, without your commitment to it, this place would not exist. Could you talk about your involvement with the institute, what it has meant to you, what do you think it means to the community and I guess, along the way, perhaps address some of the controversies that surrounded the institute in opposition that it confronted? Dr. Arrington talks about the creation of the Civil Rights Institute including: the idea's origins with David Vann ; how it relates to some of the corruption investigations and Majorie Peters, how the projects was funded, and controversy about the project. Civil rights movement ; Peters, Marjorie ; Vann, David Birmingham (Ala.). Mayor ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 12792 Mayor: Reflection on Career L: As you look back over your entire lengthy career as an elected official and public servant, what do you rank as the really rewarding successes from your point of view and what have been the areas of greatest personal disappointment for you? Dr. Arrington reflects on his long career as mayor. He mentions accomplishments like economic development, and improved diversity in city government. He also mentions public education as a missed opportunity, and disappointments like MAPS and block 60. He discusses current challenges to the city like regionalism, housing, and maintaining economic development. He also reflects on the role of mayor as a leader. Blacks--Segregation ; Diversity in the workplace Birmingham (Ala.). Mayor ; Economic development Oral History Dr. Richard Arrington Jr. discusses the latter part of his career as Mayor of Birmingham including the annexation of additional area, being the subject of an FBI investigation and the creation of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. LEMONTE: I believed we ended up yesterday with the early discussion of annexation, how that developed, what its importance was and I think you were at the first efforts that occurred under David Vann? ARRINGTON: Yes, I think we talked about the first efforts occurred out at a, major annexation effort was an effort at Booker Heights and it was during David&#039 ; s term as mayor, he had talked with me about his vision of Birmingport becoming a major port. David thought that only way that would really come to fruition is that the city of Birmingham would have to take the lead and that the city of Birmingham was probably the only government with an interest and perhaps with some resources and make it become a reality. If we were going to do that, however, it meant that we wanted the property in the city, so we could sort of control it and reap benefits of whatever the investments were. David&#039 ; s vision was that we would build a significant industrial park out in Birmingham, which would go a long way towards making Birmingport a major economic port that had real impact on the city since you can go out of Birmingport and many companies shipped out of Birmingport that owned barges and go right into the Tennessee Tombigbee River and of course that gets you into the major waterway that can take you right on down to South American if you want or you can go north. So David&#039 ; s first plan was to annex property, picking up at Birmingham&#039 ; s boundary, going out in the direction of Birmingport and finding a way to annex unincorporated property into Birmingham. He had discovered in his research that there was an old law in the book in the early 1900s for tax-exempt annexations and it was only for cities like Birmingham, whatever class we were, I don&#039 ; t know what class, but the legislature had passed it for class 3 cities. A class 3 city can have the council ; can draw up a map of the unincorporated area that they wanted to annex, just as long as some point contiguous with the city&#039 ; s boundaries. I had the council to call an election, pass a resolution on calling an election in that area. The only tax-exempt annexation, the only folk who voted were the people who actually lived on the land, not necessarily the owners of the land, but the just the people who lived on the land. And then we would of course take that, after the council passed the resolution, it would go to the probate judge and the probate judge would set a date for election. We&#039 ; d hold election if the majority approve and the property was annexed for ten years and for commercial property, maybe 12 years, they paid no property taxes and we only had to give them police and fire services. Now, David had decided and I think he was right, but most of the areas that were annexed would want full services and there was a section in that law that allowed them to waive that tax-exemption and get full services right away. And so after having the first really push for that was, as I said, Birmingport, and the way we were going to do that is by including small black communities that called Booker Heights, it&#039 ; s out in that particular area, that is unincorporated and needed fire services and police services and others. And because I was pretty well-known as a black councilman, I could go to Booker Heights and talk with them about it and explore their interests, that is what we did and of course they said yes, they wanted to and we set about to set election, we allied with a minister in the Booker Heights area as a sort of community leader, he didn&#039 ; t live in the area but he had a church in the area. And he was very much for it and he was helping us the rally the 50 or 60 people who lived there. All went well, but Tom Glore came on, who was on the county commission and he somehow, without our knowing it, he convinced the minister, that was not in their best interest and I imagine, he promised that the county would begin to provide some services that they were seeking, because Tom was not interested in seeing that unincorporated property become a part of Birmingham. I have really never understood why, I just think it was part of the differences that Vann and Glore always had, almost all political issues. Because having the property come inside of Birmingham didn&#039 ; t take it out of the county, it was still in the county. Not that it deny the county any revenue or anyway the county was getting, it in fact reduced the county&#039 ; s responsibility to provide any kind of services to them including sheriffs and all of that because the city would then have to provide it. And if we had developed the property and developed well the county would have gotten much greater revenue. So as far as I was concerned, it was a political jealousy thing, but we discovered, just shortly before the election, that the gentleman we thought was working for us, had changed his mind and was trying to convince people not to, and had created quite a division there. We went forward with the election, lost it by one vote I think it was like 26- 25 with one for it being thrown out for some reason and so we lost that first annexation election. Now that was the first, what I called major one commercial-- to bring in commercial property. And the reason we focused on commercial properties, more than we did residential properties, it&#039 ; s simply because--let me say we used residential properties, mainly we hooked them into annexation because that&#039 ; s where the people lived and we had to have somebody living there. And most of these annexations that a talk about were annexations where there were small black unincorporated communities that had for years tried to get some sort of services like fire protection, from one of the neighboring cities, the cities closest to it tried to get annexed into those cities and because these neighborhoods that were not well-off or basically poor neighborhood, they simply could not get annexed and so we were sort of like riding in and it&#039 ; s people who would provide them some of the services and the in turn would be helping us, because we would attached large (inaudible) of land--commercial land, voting it to the city. Commercial property was our major focus because of the tax structure for cities in Alabama. It is clearly skewered for cities, the tax structure skewered towards commercial property. Cities in Alabama with the exception of maybe Mountain Brook and one or two other cities that are not under what we call the cap, property tax and they pay a higher property on their residential properties, but all the other cities, depend upon sales taxes, business licenses, and occupational taxes and things of that sort of thing. But the city of Birmingham for example gets about 70% of its revenue every year from three sources, occupational tax, sales taxes and business licenses. So clearly, your tax base in cities is skewered in Alabama towards having commercial properties. You don&#039 ; t have commercial properties, you don&#039 ; t get jobs, and you don&#039 ; t have jobs if nobody occupational tax. You don&#039 ; t have business ; nobody buys a business license (inaudible) business you don&#039 ; t make sales, you don&#039 ; t get the sales taxes. So that was all part of the planning, which is why we were looking at commercial properties in order to help Birmingham to develop economically. LEMONTE: My recollection at the time, is that the media and many of your critics saw this as a ploy on your part to increase the number of black residents and strengthen your political base in the city, that is then a misreading of your motives? ARRINGTON: Totally, when we started it out the first one, for example, the one in Booker Heights, I was not even there at that time, David Vann was mayor. But if you look at all of the annexations we made, we probably, especially if you&#039 ; re (inaudible) the Roosevelt City annexation, we probably didn&#039 ; t bring 3,000 people into the city. Our focus was really not on residential properties, trying to bring more population in, we welcomed that, but that was not our major purpose. Our major purpose was to strengthen our tax base by annexing commercial properties that had not been developed and then using the resources that the city of Birmingham had to provide incentives to develop those properties, we could come in and offer people certain, first they had a tax break, we might come in and offer to do streets, if a developer would go ahead, or to help with the sewer development and there was no other city or no other local government that was doing that. So that was what our focus was, now we had done a tax-exempt annexation also under David Vann&#039 ; s administration earlier, but it didn&#039 ; t focus on commercial property. David had come up with Airport Hills, which was largely a residential area, and they wanted to come (inaudible) city and he called an election--had the city council call an election and that was a tax-exempt annexation, but it was largely just to get those citizens in Airports Hills into the city without going through the little convoluted annexation procedures, which was so archaic and was very difficult to pull it off. So we had used it out in Airport Hills and brought in largely a black residential area under David&#039 ; s administration. Well when I came into office as mayor, I continued to consult with David on a regular basis, of course shortly after my time as mayor, he came back to work in the law department and his major responsibility that I asked him to take home was working on annexation, identifying areas that we could annex, that had great economic development potential and so we pulled off some major ones, which today, actually provide the foundation of Birmingham&#039 ; s tax revenue. We first went east because there was going to be a racetrack, there was a vote dog racing in the city of Birmingham. And we wanted that track in Birmingham, so we went east using that process and we annexed the property out near the dog track, we used a neighborhood out there, near Trussville, a predominantly black unincorporated neighborhood, that had been trying to get Trussville to give them some services and they would not. We included them in annexation, they were the ones, and their votes brought that property in. So we got the property where the racetrack was being brought in that way, then David drew the plans so that we would go further east out beyond the track annexing property and the real dramatic move was that he came up with the decision that we would then move south through corridor an unincorporated property and into Shelby county, the next property into Shelby county. Well were already getting howls of criticism from suburbs and others, they said we were land grabbing ; they said all kinds of things. So suddenly we got Trussville and Irondale to come together after we began the annexation process, which would take us from the eastern area, south, down into Shelby county and we really were targeting the Cahaba River because it was a water source for us and David said we should try to control the water shed area and so we were focusing all of those things. Trussville and Irondale, knowing what corridor we were going through, moved to try to halt our annexation by carrying out an annexation themselves that would bring their boundaries together we would have no unincorporated corridor through which we could go. We learned of that, they were doing and under the law, there was something about the law you could only annex so much, you could do it a series of steps. And so when David learned of that, we called a council meeting on a Saturday morning or a Sunday and passed whatever we needed to pass, in order to get through the gap that they were trying to close so we couldn&#039 ; t proceed with the annexation, it&#039 ; s an interesting story. That annexation succeeded and we had to fight some subsequent battles, cities like Hoover tried to get their legislatures to pass laws to, which in fact would toss us out and invalidate our annexations. We had to beat them back in legislature, then they filed a suit against us, it went to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court upheld our annexation, so that was good. We then made a major push along 280, now David, the 280 push actually came before David was working full time for us. A firm out of Atlanta, the Carter Company is a development that developed the Colonade and some other properties out on 280, hired David Vann to come and negotiate with the city, because I was trying to annex some of their property, so they hired David to work out a plan and they agreed on annexation. And David represented them and we annexed property on 280, where the colonnade was built, once we were there, we went further and annexed a (inaudible) property and we went down 280 and we annexed--later own we annexed in the same time frame, the property where the large shopping center, the Summit is, we went all the way down, weaving our way through properties where people would give us at least six inches to keep us contiguous, we went down--all the way down the Brookhighland Shopping Center. Now most of the Brookhighland residential areas are still unincorporated, there&#039 ; s a small part of it that is in the city of Birmingham. But all of the commercial development and that&#039 ; s what&#039 ; s important to us again, the commercial, that shopping center is in the city Birmingham. Now even when Just For Feet built its new national headquarters some time ago and the newspapers also said they were in Pelham, they never were, they were in Birmingham, and I had negotiated that--even that deal with Serotti Permute Law Firm to provide them certain incentives for building that headquarters. So we did that annexation--the 280 annexation, David was still looking for ways to get out to towards Birmingport and we seized up on an opportunity to annex an area called Dolomite, a black community out in the southwestern area, sandwiched out there between Fairfield, Pleasant Grove, and Hueytown, that had about three or four people killed in house fires, the city of Fairfield would not give it any fire protection, or annex it, nor would any of the other cities. The city of Birmingham could never get to it because it was at no point, or out boundaries contiguous. US Steel was adamantly opposed to allowing us to come across their property or even giving us a small corridor to make us contiguous because they always feared the David Vann had a scheme to annex the plant out there, which or course he did. But David was always real dissatisfied because USX, one of the largest employers, with all of those steel mills out there were in unincorporated areas and apparently always told the city of Fairfield if they, which is where they naturally would be--annexed in the city of Fairfield, most people think they are in the city Fairfield, had told them so years ago, according to David, that if they tried to annex the properties that they were going to move their plants and go to Texas, where they had operations there. And that always bothered David, so he sought some way that we could get help there and if we could get to Dolomite, we would then of course call the annexation or we let the Dolomite folks vote the US Steel property, but US Steel and USX would never agree. So what finally happened is that I had went to Pittsburgh and met with one of their officials a vice president who turned out to have had a doctorate in Physics and was now in the administrative positive there. I talked with him about at least giving us a corridor through the US Steel properties, so that we would be contiguous with the Dolomite community and we could annex and provide them with some services. Against advice of his local folks who really didn&#039 ; t like Birmingham and didn&#039 ; t trust David Vann at all, he agreed to consider and flew down here on a couple of occasions and met with me and after getting some solid commitments and writing and so forth, that we would not annex their plant, they gave us like about a six foot corridor through their properties and they annex a six foot corridor to Birmingham, that (inaudible) gave direct access and made us contiguous with Dolomite. So now you can annex Dolomite, we could achieve one of our purposes, which is to provide this community with services they don&#039 ; t have, better police protection, fire protection, street and sanitation services. But then David came up with idea that we would move--we could (inaudible) Dolomite and we can go northwest of Dolomite and go up to Birmingport again and now, this time the county thought they had blocked us, they had gotten Maytown annexed, the corridor around--blocking Birmingham, but David found a way, so we still went- we didn&#039 ; t get all the property we had originally wanting the Booker Heights annexation, but we got a great deal of it, because we used the Dolomite property and he found the unincorporated corridors that took us almost to Birmingport, so that was one of our annexations. We annexed--we increased the size of Birmingham about 60%. We failed in one annexation because we used some old maps, we were going to annex much of what now is gone into Trussville, but we were going to annex a whole lot of that area along the interstate that runs through that area, property owned by USX and by Tutwilers. We put it all in a call and one of the mistakes we made--David recommended and he and I debated it and I finally gave into it, that we annexed the high school that was there. And of course that was a very sore spot and it really got the people upset and then lo and behold, by a week or so before the election, we decided that David and Bob Land would ride the area and look at it and lo and behold, when they got out and started looking around at the area where we called annexation and which we expected to win because we had a small black community sitting right there on Trussville, which had refused to annex and they wanted services again. And I had worked with a black minister there and I had lined up all of those people, it was about 20 families and they were all going to come in and vote and we had the votes to annex all of this property. But in riding out looking at it, they discovered that there had been a number of multi-family units built on some of those properties, all of the residents were white and we had used old maps that didn&#039 ; t show that property was still under development and of course we lost that election, because first of all, the people were up in arms, particularly the city of Trussville and the white landowners and all and Mr. Tutwiler and they rallied those people living in those apartments to come out and vote and on that day of the referendum, they served hot dogs and tea at the voting place. And of course they gave us a (inaudible) they beat us like about one hundred and something to about twenty, so that was the one big one we lost, but most of them, we did succeed in carrying out and I would close this point out by pointing out that the tax structure in the city of Birmingham today rest largely, not totally, but largely on businesses that are in those annexed, that been building those annexed properties and we helped to build some of those businesses, you know. We got into Oxmoor and all that but even when we did 280 property, where the Summit is, we used a small black mining town community, which was originally Oxmoor, gathered black communities that Irondale would not take in and when that community voted in like the Summit property for us at the time that we called that annexation, but today that is one of the largest shopping center, even Saks Fifth Ave now, under construction on that property. But that&#039 ; s in Birmingham, you go down that corridor and some of the major developments, HEALTHSOUTH national headquarters is in Birmingham and all of those were built on that annexed property and they provide a large amount of the revenue for the operation of Birmingham ; a large number of jobs for our city. So I can tell many stories about annexation, but that gives you some idea of it. The major annexation--we did annex some small towns and solely for purpose of providing them with some services. We did Roosevelt City, and didn&#039 ; t bring any other properties, we just brought Roosevelt City in, and we did a little town called Brownsville, because they were going broke, they wanted (inaudible) and we annexed them. But our major annexation was those huge plots of land that we talked about. LEMONTE: You described a relationship with the man you defeated in 1979, in really quite a remarkable way that apparently you and he were able to work very closely with one another on important city projects, after you took office and he brought an expertise to your administration that was probably unavailable anywhere else I would think that our keen topic of annexation, I would think that&#039 ; s almost unique in governmental politics to have the winner and the loser function so closely as a team, did it strike you that way at the time and did you David ever reflect on the irony of your careers? ARRINGTON: No, I tell we never did, I think David and I always enjoyed working with each other. And even following that election, we continued to work together and we didn&#039 ; t even miss a beat, we just kept working together. For David, it sat aside this great (inaudible) he had to be involved in municipal government. It was good for us because he was perhaps the most knowledgeable person in municipal (inaudible) we had in the state. And certainly on annexation he knew things nobody else knew, I mean he put fear in the lives of folks were opposed to our annexations, because they just felt, after a short while no way to defeat us, when David Vann was handling our annexation. But we remained close politically our lives and friends up until the time David passed, I mean we would sit around sometimes and reflect on things that have gone down or talked about things that were happening, I would go up to David&#039 ; s apartment, we would sit there and talk. But you know, there was never any friction between David and me, I can&#039 ; t tell you why I think part of it, it was that I used to enjoy David&#039 ; s style, he was always creative, he always wanted to do something. And plus he had such an interesting emotional things he wanted to do for the city. And I just enjoyed it and was glad to have aboard and he was clearly the architect of the major annexation moves that we made. I think we had started getting much of the so-called Oxmoor Valley now, where we have warehouses and major office plants. We started annexing some of that before I was mayor, when David was mayor. We annexed some additional property after I came in, but I was clearly following that David Vann pattern. David was sort of the brain trust behind and I was a facilitator because we had to use--many cases we had to use small black-- just about every area would use black voters to vote the land in under that tax- exempt annexation. And I at that particular time had the high enough profile, I was well known, being the first black mayor and I could move into those communities. People at that particular time, they were happy to get the services, happy to know me, happy to know that the city was interested, and so forth and so on. So we made a good team and I never forgot. LEMONTE: My recollection is that you really took a drubbing in the community from sources who did misread the motive, was there any way that you tried to explain to the business leadership and the media leadership in the community, this annexation strategy, did they listen in retrospect, do you think it was a public relations problem as well as a major economic policy? ARRINGTON: Well I think it might have been a public relations problem, but I&#039 ; m not sure there was one that, even with best public relations experts, we could have avoided a fight. I think that was just--I am not resenting of Birmingham coming in annexation properties, that in some instances surrounding cities that had not taken them in apparently saw them as future expansion areas for them, places like Hoover. It was very interesting that shortly after we did one of those annexations, they got the law change so other cities could it, and that is a tax-exempt annexation and Hoover annexed into Shelby also, Hoover was once only in Birmingham. But the legislature took all--made all of the effort to get us out of Shelby county, but leaving Hoover in there and there sort of undercut the arguments too because here they are trying to kick Birmingham out from coming from one county into another, but they want to leave Hoover in Shelby county, where it had annexed into. And that also helped us in winning the case before the Alabama Supreme Court, when we were taken to court on those annexations. I just think, historically there had been opposition from smaller cities to Birmingham. Opposition in the legislature, they viewed Birmingham, as Big Bad Birmingham and that started before I was mayor, probably even before David was mayor. I think the situation probably--the resentment was heightened some because we were pretty proactive as mayors, both of us were and we were fighting for the survival of the city and we were--by the time David came in, the migration of people to the suburbs was taking place and (inaudible) going to some businesses like Blue Cross and all of that and David--whereas other mayors, George Sibyls had--some of those businesses started leaving under Sibyls administration, but Sibyls didn&#039 ; t mount any fight against it. When David immediately became mayor, began to try to offer him incentives to stay in, applied pressure to these big businesses not to leave the city. If they left the city like Blue Cross, he immediately cancelled the insurance at Blue Cross ; I mean did a number of things. In fact, David made that decision that we would do that, and then he lost and then it really fell on my shoulders (inaudible). So the fight with Blue Cross really carried out into my administration and (inaudible) employees very happy because they were shifting over to a self-insured plant from Blue Cross plant. But there was heavy opposition to it ; I really don&#039 ; t think there any way that we could have cut down on any opposition. I met with some people, for example, representative Ellis, who represented Shelby county in the legislature, brought a delegation in to see me and he said we had upset people down in Shelby county, people who had moved down, built new subdivisions, were living new subdivisions because they thought we were going to force them into the city. So he was an attorney, but I explained to him in the conference room there at city hall that no we were not trying to force anybody and we couldn&#039 ; t bring anybody unless they voted to come in anyway, so we had not touched the residential areas. But I made a mistake of telling him what we were doing, I explained to him that we were targeting commercial properties and why. Now I don&#039 ; t know why they had not thought about that before he and the other people. But really they wanted us to declare a moratorium on elections (inaudible) annexations elections, especially in Shelby county area. And I simply agreed that we would not touch any residential areas in Shelby County, but any commercial areas that were coming in, we would proceed with annexation. And of course once they knew what we were targeting, they began to target people, we were about annex a gentleman who owned a small business, service station, grocery store, he had wanted to come in and they applied significant pressure to him and the threat of boycotting the businesses and so forth and so that&#039 ; s how they headed us off. I made one other major goof, we set up an election that would have annexed a lot of land owned by Drummond, it&#039 ; s now called Liberty Park, by Drummond USX and whatever that company--liberty--whatever insurance company there, I forget the name of it, but it was a large welcome when Frank Sanford-- LEMONTE: Liberty National. ARRINGTON: Liberty Nations Insurance Company and David drew up that plan and we had this little black community out there in Irondale and we threw all of that property into that annexation call. So everything that&#039 ; s now Liberty Park, it was in that annexation call. We had a hand down--we had the votes, I started meeting with representatives of those three companies and they began then to unveil a plan they had for the development of Liberty Park. And they were of course going to build these homes, these very expensive homes and they needed a (inaudible)--they needed to have a school system which was considered quality school system, they said Birmingham school system didn&#039 ; t fit that bill, they could do those homes and so forth. And what they did in a series of meetings with me and probably should have been accompanied by somebody like David, but in a series of meetings with me, they cut a deal with me, where they bring--they would put the commercial properties in Birmingham, we would lead a residential properties, the properties that they scheduled for residential developments out. Well I thought that was okay, that was a fair deal. To show their good faith, they annexed like 50 or 60 acres of commercial property into the city right away, they annexed another small commercial piece where they had some commercial businesses-owned, just small businesses and the mistake I made is that they then said--well I said, &quot ; What we will do, we will just change the map and we&#039 ; ll leave the commercial properties in.&quot ; They then asked--said or no we would bring the properties in, we would rather develop the properties outside of the city and then bring them in because the city had stronger requirements for things like sidewalks and you don&#039 ; t have that in the county and it runs the cost up, but as we build these buildings and they built a number of them, we would annex them. And I was so naïve that I did that on a handshake and obviously they never brought them in. I went back to see them when they started--completed two of the office buildings, they would not bring the property in. They subsequently went to Mountain Brook to try to get Mountain Brook to annex the property. They then explained to me they needed to keep the commercial properties to support their residential areas and provide for the schools and the libraries. When they couldn&#039 ; t get Mountain Brook to do it they got the state legislature--I successfully blocked it the first year, but the second year they succeeded in getting the state legislature to annex it to Vestavia, even though it was not contiguous to Vestavia, so I learned a bitter lesson there and a bitter lesson down with Rust, I don&#039 ; t want to get into it, but we--Rust major headquarters, the home company for Rust had a long time commitment to us to stay in Birmingham because we had to help do the studies for the (inaudible) cites. And again, just on the word of the local director Mr. Rosendale here, one day he called me and wanted me to send a letter to his national headquarters and we didn&#039 ; t object to their moving down on 280 and property of that is owned by a real estate firm down there and that they would annex the property to the city as they built them and with my letter, the headquarters allowed them to begin moving down there. After they had moved into four very fine buildings down and I hadn&#039 ; t heard from them, I went to visit Mr. Rosendale and of course I also--Douglass was a developer and was apart of their agreement, David had handle a negotiation with Daniel on the deal. Rosendale refused even to talk with me about when I went to his office, I mean he was sort of rude frankly and when I went to the Daniel folks to talk about it, they said they couldn&#039 ; t bring the property in because they were being pressure by the Shelby county commission. And so forth and so on those were two occasions where I was a terrible businesses person because I assume that these people--but their word was good and I learned from that, that in doing a business deal, you bind it and those are two deals which should have gone though and my goodness, it cost us millions of dollars every year that we don&#039 ; t have, those are major areas here in this metro area right now. LEMONTE: You mentioned Birmingham schools in relation to the residential developments. What (inaudible) you look back over your tenure in public life, what comments would you make about education, the importance of education, what was done or might have been done, certainly any thoughts you have about education in the future in Birmingham? ARRINGTON: Well I think the greatest failure during my administration was that we didn&#039 ; t put enough emphasis on trying, pushing for the improvement of education, it&#039 ; s just sort of tricky thing to do in a sense that education in public schools here strictly the boards of educations and so forth. But I don&#039 ; t think that any superintendent that I&#039 ; d gone to them and said, &quot ; Look we want to--you know we were giving schools, we built some new schools, and we did some renovations.&quot ; Every bond issue we did, we went through the board of education and said, and &quot ; Don&#039 ; t you want to be included?&quot ; And so we must have done some elementary schools and some other schools and provided renovation, but there was not major infusion of money into the capital program for schools and the school facilities were steadily deteriorating. I don&#039 ; t know how much we could have done about the educational program, the academic program, I think the mayor&#039 ; s office could probably have been a bully pulpit so to speak and we could have (inaudible) postured bully pulpit--city money as we have now begin--the city is now beginning to do. They only started that major effort just shortly before I left office, two hundred million dollar program. But we didn&#039 ; t put enough emphasis frankly and I left it (inaudible) to the superintendent and the board and I was responding to what they asked of us and that&#039 ; s very little of us to tell you the truth and all of the while the quality of education going down the suburban flight of course played a role in it. And the school system itself was just not making adjustments for the students that had--was holding up standards and expectations and so forth and city government wasn&#039 ; t priding and pushing in those particular areas. There was just school system was just a troubled school system, a deteriorating school system, with declining student performance and all of those kinds of things. And I never, as mayor, I never tried to pull together any kind hearing or summit or anything talking about education, focus attention what was happening to those schools. It was only after Johnny Brown, he had began to push and I had a few conversations with him, it really dawned on me that we could have been doing more and he was a superintendent who had demanded a lot of accountability, he came in demanding accountability of his staff and teachers and I liked that very much and I was happy to try to join him to help provide some resources for the capital improvements. But that was one of the major shortcomings of the 20 I was there, we just let our educational system just deteriorate and I really didn&#039 ; t think it through. I hadn&#039 ; t gone to the schools-- board of superintendents suggested that we do many things, I had gotten involved when they had fight over firing the superintendent and of course the newspaper had said I was going to get politics into the systems and I ought to keep my nose out. And I used that as an excuse for why I didn&#039 ; t do anything, but quite frankly, I didn&#039 ; t see the bigger picture of even being--the fact that I had come out of high education and I&#039 ; m dealing with all of these other issues, but I&#039 ; m not pushing in educational area and I think we paid a price for it, we were late coming though it. And now we&#039 ; re trying to rebuild our system, it will take years and there&#039 ; s still problems of course and not just for the schools, I mean even trying to--kids perform better on tasks, we started building new schools, finished the regional high school, about to go to another, providing the money for. We got a teacher&#039 ; s union happy to have (inaudible) superintendent and there&#039 ; s a move I think that they&#039 ; d like to get an elected board, so hopefully they could get a majority on the board and they can fire the superintendent. It&#039 ; s a crazy kind of thing and I interpreted it all because they don&#039 ; t like the fact that their feet are being held to the fire in terms of how they got to perform. But we&#039 ; ll see how that comes out. LEMONTE: Do you have any thoughts if you were suddenly made soured public education based on your experience and what you may have heard from other mayors, what can be done with big city systems that make them serve the kids better? ARRINGTON: Well I really think that one thing we could do here would have been to give the mayor a little bit more authority, to make him sort of resolve the schools as they did in Chicago, as they did in Buffalo and they done in several other cities. Because quite frankly when it comes to getting some resources, especially capital resources for facilities and then new technology and so forth, it&#039 ; s usually done at the local level and the state level and certainly that&#039 ; s true here in Alabama. The other monies come out of this special education trust fund in the state for instruction, but there&#039 ; s little money comes from the state for capital improvements and things of that sort. And so the board of education usually ends up coming to city government and they usually come to the largest city government and in the case unincorporated areas, they go to the county commission seeking funds. And even if they usually if they want to ask people voted additional taxes up on themselves, the schools usually come through--they have the cities that handle the referendum and so forth. Now I think the two major missing ingredients, maybe three in schools that I would really push, one is you got to put greater accountability ; I mean you have got to have principals-(Talking already in progress) ARRINGTON: Over and started trying to help and get involved and work it out and then I saw how poor the management was and the whole system, so at the very top, there were some serious problems. I think putting in place a stronger administrative staff that understood its responsibilities, held itself accountable, first things important. You could then, of course, demand the principals, you set goals and had expectations, and everybody had to work toward them. And then along with that you had to provide resources, you just can&#039 ; t pump resources, even if it&#039 ; s only half of the resources are in, if you&#039 ; re not going to deal with the people who have to carry the program out. That&#039 ; s easier said than done, because a lot of fine teachers in the systems, many, quite a few who&#039 ; ve become laxed, while there have been some good principals and a lot of principals that have not been good. And we&#039 ; ve had such trouble here in the teachers&#039 ; union, the AEA in Alabama is such a strong force that most superintendents didn&#039 ; t really want to take AEA on. I think this superintendent that we have now has done that. I think that&#039 ; s a move in the right direction, but I think that&#039 ; s what we have to do and that&#039 ; s what (inaudible) I would have been the best superintendent, trying to find some good principals, even had to go outside to bring them in, I don&#039 ; t think they tenure principals, we&#039 ; re moving new principals in and of course you can&#039 ; t get rid of tenured teachers. But you can push on in-service training for teachers and you can certainly get rid of the new teachers coming in that are not tenured if they don&#039 ; t perform well. And quite frankly we didn&#039 ; t do that in the Birmingham system until Johnny Brown came in. LEMONTE: You put public education generally in a negative column, another area that I suspect you would put in the same category was the maps effort, and I wonder if you could talk about what the thinking was behind maps, the importance you attach to it and you reflections on that experience? ARRINGTON: Well MAPS is another great failure, it was a metropolitan-wide program of projects, the centerpiece for (inaudible) was to build a dome facility and but in order--also to attract support for the dome facility, we proposed, providing special funding sources for the proposed one cent county-wide sales tax that would have been levied for education and some for recreation and some for cultural activities and things of that sort. We had about ten or twelve major areas, we had for public safety, (inaudible) and we had a number of things and it was good composite, but the opponents, the critics always argued that we would put those things in there to try to sell the dome and while that might have true, that might have brought us around, including these things, that still diminish the importance of having those things, of having funding to complete the McWane Center of having funding for cultural activities for the symphony and the dance groups and all of these groups. That was the good thing about maps, let me just start about it two or three ways, first of all, it was a major accomplishment to get the corporate community behind MAPS program, the corporate communities were very conservative about those things. Fortunately, Richard Scrushy, a CEO of HEALTHSOUTH was interested in it at the time in (inaudible) major sports franchise had competed for the Marlins baseball team, came in second in that. Had been offered by the man who was given the franchise of some significant share of the stock, as he told me, but had decided that he wanted to be the major stockholder in the franchise, he participated in it so he was interested in putting together a group in trying to bring a franchise to Birmingham and to do so, of course we needed the dome. That&#039 ; s how we got started talking about it quite frankly. There were a lot of interesting discussions because he wanted to put the dome in Pelham and or somewhere way out and he made arguments about land cost and arguments about how much parking there would be and a whole lot of other things. He was arguing against my point, that the dome had to be downtown Birmingham. And I knew that because I had staff to do a study and they had studied ten or twelve cities with domes and what were going into their planning. Out of twelve domes, we looked at in those twelve cities, ten of them, the cities had used the dome facilities to revitalize their downtown areas or their old convention centers and what have you. And they had worked very successfully and most--a couple of cases out in Detroit, they had gone out to a suburb with the silver dome and Pontiac, MI and it had not been a success at all and of course as we talk now, we know that the franchise, both baseball and football had been moved back into Detroit and they had built a new stadium, football and baseball stadiums. So it was a flop, but I remember in St. Petersburg, it&#039 ; s still there, I think the Marlins play down there now, but for years, it&#039 ; s been a great dome to utilized stadium, because they didn&#039 ; t--it wasn&#039 ; t used a lot for conventions and things and that&#039 ; s really what they mostly use for convention type activities, you got a major league franchise, like a particular like football teams, it may pay ten or fifteen games in there, you got ten or fifteen dates failed, but you got your other 300 days of the year you to do something with, so you do it with conventions and so forth, that surely would have carried it. So anyway, I never convinced Richard until he had a consultant, we pulled together sort of an advisory group of businessmen and consultants told them the same things they were in total agreement with me and so they settled on that, (inaudible) do a dome stadium down at the convention center. The corporate community came together behind that, now there were difficult hurdles to overcome like, first of all, it require the constitutional amendment to do that project, how we were going to get it out the legislature. We wanted a Jefferson County only vote, we didn&#039 ; t want to vote it on the countywide, in order to do that, it had to pass the legislature without a dissenting vote and all of that and we did. That was a major accomplishment, but clearly we were only able to do it because the corporate community really put the pressure on the legislature and so perhaps, maybe one time in history something that significant comes out of Alabama legislature, nobody would vote against it, everybody either voted for it or abstaining, one way or the other. So that put us in business with it, now we hired consultants with some of the marketing, the people had have criticized our marketing, people have criticized the fact that the MAPS project had an advisory committee, which was going to have an executive committee that included the majority the membership of corporate people and not elected officials. But elected officials were going to be in the proposed executive group. But of course the opposition used that to also help to defeat the project. But I guess we never got across to people, we tried in the end, but first of all, MAPS first and foremost and economic development project. It was something Birmingham had never had, and it&#039 ; s a sizeable economic development project that creates literally thousands of jobs, just in construction and then after the construction phase would create a less number of jobs. But it would make us competitive, we never convinced people that this is a job creation and the qualities of life starts with jobs. If folks don&#039 ; t have jobs, they can&#039 ; t have a good quality of life, if they don&#039 ; t have jobs, they don&#039 ; t pay taxes, they don&#039 ; t pay taxes, we can&#039 ; t build good schools, we can&#039 ; t have fine recreational facilities, we can&#039 ; t have all of these good things we talk about what we see in other cities and wonder why we don&#039 ; t have them. We have to make an investment and so had ask people to approve the maps project with the one cents countywide sales tax, either 25% of that tax was to go for a transit system which was going to be countywide. We tried to hammer that home towards the end, but we didn&#039 ; t succeed. We also, the second thing in maps was important about maps the people never really understood and it was quite frankly a back doorway to promote intergovernmental cooperation. Because under maps program, we set up pools of money for the police department and the way it was structured, all the police chiefs had to sit together and determine how we were going to use that money, we put in money to have a countywide communication system, throughout the county, one communication system that would be paid for by the maps money. All of the crime fighting programs would have had--instead of having 30 some odd different crime fighting programs, with every police department having this program. Under the maps program, using as a magnet to pool the money generated by maps that set aside for public safety, all those police chiefs had to sit together and plan together and implement the programs together. So it was a way to bring about cooperation, you had to do the same thing in every area, whether you were talking about parks, even for the schools. They say there wasn&#039 ; t much money ; the schools&#039 ; is only $75m (inaudible), that&#039 ; s true, but that was more than the school systems here in the county were getting from the state. The state was (inaudible) $500m bond issue, but when they got through spitting the money up among 120 something public school systems, we didn&#039 ; t have anything. But it even made the superintendents had to plan together, the fire department had to do that, so the other thing we were doing sort of--as I said, backdoor way, we were forcing some intergovernmental cooperation, which is badly needed here and we were starting it on a regional basis. And maps would have done that, because of one of the conditions we had put in was that, we set aside the pool of money for these different projects, but the advisory group (inaudible) has to be the chief officer in that particular area from each one of the governments and that&#039 ; s what we were doing. But anyway, it failed, the opposition attacked us, first of all, Scrushy was attacked, we&#039 ; re building a stadium for fat cat who (inaudible) to build his own stadium (inaudible) second thing was (inaudible) grabbed by King Richard in Birmingham, because Birmingham was going to get most of it, the dome stadium was going to be in Birmingham. I got some very critical letters from suburban reps and from the mayor of Trussville wrote me a letter like they used to--I thought they wrote back in the 1940s and I still have that in my file, in which he said all kinds of negative things about Birmingham and why is it--they come to the crime center and ought to call it crime dome and a number of things. They riled the people up and so by the time it came to a vote, quite frankly, it was suburban/inner city issue, it was a black/white issue and all you have to do is look at the outcome of the votes. In the city of Birmingham, especially the black votes, there were boxes there were 70 something percent voted for maps. But in the white boxes, even in Birmingham, we got only about 20 something percent votes for maps. And in the suburban areas the turnout was terrific, I mean the large number people, more than voted in a presidential election, voted in the suburban areas and they voted 99 against maps and of course that killed it. Now you know, during the post-mortem on it, people say all kinds of things, but in my opinion, Birmingham is just a city that&#039 ; s consultant after consultant, national consultants have told us through the metropolitan development board, the chamber of commerce, Birmingham is just a city that&#039 ; s just adverse risk and change. It does not want to venture out enough, to take the risks that other cities take to do things, that we have too much of a status quo city and I think our history tells us that. If you look at the where Birmingham was among the major cities in the southeast and going about 1948 and then you look at where we are now, you know that the other cities are doing some things economically and otherwise that we&#039 ; re not doing and they&#039 ; re doing it better than us and they&#039 ; ve surpassed us. (Talking already in progress) LEMONTE: You framed the discussion of maps partly in the context of intergovernmental cooperation and you spoke about Birmingham being a risk-adverse city, I assume you mean the metropolitan area as well? ARRINGTON: Yeah, I speak of the metro area well. LEMONTE: My recollection is you are one of the very few public officials who had said over the years that you would support a consolidation of local governments where some major restructuring of local government, there hasn&#039 ; t appeared to be a base of support for that, what are your reflections in what have been your experiences with governing the central city of a rather fragmented metropolis in what do you see as the possibilities in the short-run for overcoming some of that fragmentation, if there are such possibilities? ARRINGTON: Well, sub urbanization has been the very destabilizing force for Birmingham, which is a major city and so-called mother city in a city and the reasons are fairly obvious, we&#039 ; ve lost most of the middle class suburbs and with it, gone a lot of the jobs and so forth and even though we have worked hard to create jobs and have been very successful in that area, we still, sub urbanization- is still a problem for us because there is really no cooperation for example, the city of Birmingham, it&#039 ; s lower per capita income, compared the suburbs, still provides most of the amenities (inaudible), the botanical gardens, we are a major governmental contributor to the symphony. Going on we the one government (inaudible) to provide air service for this ten-county area. And the affluent governmental (inaudible) Vestavias and the Mountain Brooks, their governments did nothing, contributed absolutely nothing. They enjoy all the benefits of going to the symphony, (inaudible) cultural things. That&#039 ; s an inequity that should not be allowed to continue to exist now, just in the sense of not only fairness, but the sense of what it takes to keep a metro area viable. I&#039 ; ve tried to diplomatically point that out to a number of the mayors. We just could not continue to do this by ourselves and that we had a much lower per capita income than their cities had and yet their governments are contributing nothing to these amenities which absolutely essential for viable metro area. Of course, we did not get very far with that particular argument, I have participated in a number of conferences or groups like 20/20 has sponsored, but elected officials from metro and the talks are always good, but it never gets beyond that. I think for many suburban governments, there is also a political problem that they see and they feel that cooperation with Birmingham and somehow, it threatens them politically because their perception is that is not the thing, that the overwhelmingly majority voters in that area was (inaudible). There are some fear (inaudible) who would talk about threatening the quality of the schools in the suburban areas and the possibility at some point, there may be a forced merger of Birmingham&#039 ; s schools significantly less quality than the suburban schools. That argument is perhaps the most frequently used argument that I hear. But the truth is and I think--of course there is political argument, suburbs are even in the legislature are represented by republicans, Birmingham is represented by democrats, there is the racial gap and the legislatures from Birmingham are black and those from the suburbs are white, white republicans, black democrats, a black inner city, a white suburban area and all the old problems that we have struggled with related to race over the years, still played out in some ways and even in these discussions, because politicians by and large or not, most of them are really not great leaders, they&#039 ; re not risk takers of that sort. They&#039 ; re busy sampling there to find what their people want, they don&#039 ; t get out and lead ; they sort of follow what the people want. So we just have not done anything except talk about it, it&#039 ; s been some ongoing efforts. I&#039 ; ve tried about two years before leaving office to push the concept of the metro service districts, where everybody would be protected, but I tried to push to get the local chamber of commerce and the metro development board to support efforts in the legislature to create metro service districts where legislatures group, maybe several counties or whatever the natural dominance or metro area together and call that a metro service district. And set up a board of representatives and they provide whatever services that people in the district voted to them to provide and of course voted to pay for and we cited the area (inaudible) as an example, the chamber and other groups even sent committees out to look at to see what had been done and places like that and we cited a number of other examples, but he had gotten nowhere with the metro service district. In fact the time I was scheduled to make the presentation at a chamber breakfast for the metro service districts. I think the chamber reps started was not going if they ever stood any chance of selling that I was not the person to sell it quite frankly and while they didn&#039 ; t want to offend by asking me not to do it, they did maneuvered, I forgot John&#039 ; s name, but anyway, he was a southern research man for many years-- LEMONTE: John Rouse? ARRINGTON: Yeah, they got John Rouse and they presented a program where John Rouse was to speak and I was to speak and John Rouse would talk about what southern research institute, a fine institute, but what research they had done on this issue and so forth. And of course, it went down--he made his presentation that morning, I spoke afterwards and I said nothing about it, but clearly I knew what was driving the way it was done, but that didn&#039 ; t matter. The good thing was that if we could sell the idea of metro service districts, that way--and then I had thought maybe with John Rouse saying to them, you don&#039 ; t have to worry about your schools, unless you want to do schools, everybody in the district would have to vote if you&#039 ; re going to do something about schools. But anyway, to date, it still hasn&#039 ; t caught on and I think we&#039 ; re suffering because of it, in this entire metro area, that&#039 ; s why other areas are outgrowing us, we&#039 ; re competing for economic development against the Charlottes. Charlotte is carrying out metro-wide cooperation without any legislation, they&#039 ; ve had a group studying in it and making proposals, but they have consolidated things without that and have still have not, they&#039 ; ve had stuff in the legislature didn&#039 ; t have a group, they still have not taken a form of a vote, but they&#039 ; ve gone ahead with consolidation. A (inaudible) is moving because Davidson county has a metro form of government. Jacksonville took off, these are cities that, even when I first got on the council, didn&#039 ; t outrank Birmingham economically or otherwise, but now has passed us by. Jacksonville, Florida&#039 ; s metro government, it has one school district and so it doesn&#039 ; t have to deal with fears of folks worrying about the quality of education, they already got one board of education and one school district. But here in Birmingham, we still have all of those problems and you can around the country and sight a number of metro areas, where there is good regional cooperation, even through a metro-form of government or through some sort of intergovernmental agreement, they worked together. That gives them an advantage when it comes to competition, when competing with Birmingham. What we&#039 ; re here in the Birmingham area, when we compete for jobs what have you, quite frankly there&#039 ; s only one government, that&#039 ; s really out on the forefront fighting that. Now we have the help of the metro development board and some extend to chamber, but for a long time, you have to remember, up until maybe five years ago, the major funding for even the metro development board was coming from the city of Birmingham, not from other cities and not from the business community. Thank goodness that has change in the business community has now stepped in and played a much more active role in funding the metro development board. I&#039 ; m at the same point, I just reiterated that, the suburban areas who have been getting the growth and much of the growth is just not been regional growth, it&#039 ; s just been a redistribution of jobs and things, they just moved folks out of the inner city, so to speak, or the central city out to the suburbs and so they said, &quot ; You know we&#039 ; re growing.&quot ; That hasn&#039 ; t always been the case (inaudible) some growth, but you look at your net growth in terms of what was happening in the region. Regional cooperation is a serious problem and we have to--it&#039 ; s a negative for us. It&#039 ; s been pointed out to us by the every--the metro board brings, and the chamber bring in a nationally known economically development consulting group. They bring them in there four or five years and tell us what we ought to do and the problems are and how do we compare with the dozen other cities in the region and they tell us the same thing every time, you know they compare where we are in education and all of those areas with those cities and then they tell us the same things, we gotta improve our education, we&#039 ; ve got to venture and takes some risks, they strongly endorse the maps program and things of that sort. But we just haven&#039 ; t been able to succeed in getting people to understand that and-- LEMONTE: And you&#039 ; re not optimistic about major change in the short-run? ARRINGTON: Unfortunately I&#039 ; m not, I just do not see it, there are some people who are working hard on it, but you know, the 20/20 project, I think has been wonderful bringing people in, have a lot of input from people and one of the criticisms of the maps program, was that it has been put together by a small group of folks and hadn&#039 ; t had any input from other areas. Well they got a 20/20 program going now and I think they had plenty input from maybe a ten-county area, folks have said this is what prefer. I don&#039 ; t anything coming out of it quite frankly, you&#039 ; ve got to find out about all of those things they&#039 ; re talking about, you gotta find out where do we get started, where do get a hoe. And you really won&#039 ; t have the major impact if you want to deal with some projects, I mean if you want to just deal with bike trails and hiking trails and making sure they run from county to county and we did that on the maps too, we did things like that. That&#039 ; s fine, but it&#039 ; s not going to generate any great economic impact and it&#039 ; s not going to change a whole lot of things, and people just have to face up to that. We now have the zoo, it&#039 ; s now semi-privatized, and I mean, three governments--four governments, the county, the city of Birmingham, Mountain Brook and Homewood. I worked on that years and years, I finally pulled it off, but only because of this strategic location of the zoo and the fear about what&#039 ; s going to happen if we indeed in ever succeeded in moving the zoo to a new site, had been proposed two or three times. Homewood was very concerned about what was going to happen and Mountain Brook was very concerned that hundred and something odd, or two hundred and something odd acres of property out there that the city owned that we would probably sell it to some commercial developer and so forth and it would interfere with quality of life for those suburban communities. And that&#039 ; s what eventually brought them to the table and we were able to hammer out some agreement where we turned to zoo operation over to the zoological society and we (inaudible) to operating expenses for ten years. So I hate to be so pessimistic, but I just don&#039 ; t see anything happening, the attitudes have not changed. We couldn&#039 ; t people to see the tremendous impact of having a countywide transit system, a true quality convention center with a domed stadium in it. Just to look at the economic impact, how many jobs are going to be created if we try to build the transit system, the facilities, build these trails, building new Olympic swimming facilities, so all of this-we could never get them to look beyond the ways we didn&#039 ; t do anything and what social problems they imagine, these things would pose and we gotta stop being a status quo metro area, that&#039 ; s all I can tell you. And I don&#039 ; t know how we do it, I mean sit around and I mentioned all of these cities that passed our metro, I look at Chattanooga and that&#039 ; s a destination site, Birmingham is not, so we&#039 ; re obviously not doing something right and we&#039 ; re just not cooperating and planning together. LEMONTE: Your political career is often linked to the Jefferson County Citizens Coalition, could you talk about its history, how it was organized, what it did and your thoughts about the coalition as, at the time you left office in it&#039 ; s continuing role in local government. ARRINGTON: Actually it&#039 ; s an effort to get the leverage ; black political support for an upcoming bond issue is how it really started. I think this is was during the Vann administration, but anyway, we were about to vote on bond issue and I looked at past bond issues and voting on them and it&#039 ; s very obvious that bond issues that have passed in Birmingham in the last ten years-since the mid-60s anyway. I had passed because of the support from black voters and you could not find a white box where the issue had ever passed except for building a jail and I saw that right away, that&#039 ; s not to say that no whites voted for the bond issue, it&#039 ; s just when you took the box as a whole, there was a predominantly white box that everyone had voted against it, they were much more conservative about it, they voted against even when we said there were no new taxes involved, we could issue the bonds using the current taxation, they still voted against and so all of the bond issues that were passed and we had several that were passed and there were significant efforts to do things from street, public and (inaudible) improvement projects and libraries and things of that sort. They were passed on the strength of black voters, now also on bond issue I noticed right way that only about 20% of the folks had bothered to vote period on the bond issue at the turn out was always small. So anyway, noting that, I called a meeting, I was a council member at that time, but I called a meeting with all the black political civic leagues and group at 16th Street Baptist church and was very pleased that there was a super turn out and (inaudible). And I talked about having an umbrella group of civic leagues and political organizations and often the black community, which set forth a group of goals that we wanted achieved and the economic development, if we were going to support the upcoming bond issue, we had to have a commitment from the city Birmingham, black contractors and so forth were going to be guaranteed involvement of participation in projects. We asked the late Oscar Adams, who later became a Supreme Court judge, asked him to be one of the speakers, he went before the city, he along with Walter Jackson and some other small committee and made our pitch for involvement in exchange for support. But we also decided in that meeting that we ought to go to the county and say the same thing to the county and you know the county was not--the government was not having the bond issue at the time and we did that. So we started out well, the city of Birmingham, we were well received there, the black vote was very pivotal in the bond issue and I think they recognize that. They appointed a committee, in fact the reason I can&#039 ; t tell whether David was--&#039 ; 75, this was &#039 ; 76 probably when this is happening, I think he may have just become mayor. But anyway we got a committee ; I know Vann attended some of the meetings with the black groups committee, down at 16th Street Baptist church. Vann, Russell, Yarborough, I don&#039 ; t know who the third person, but anyway, we met and we talked and of course, there was general agreement, nothing binding or ironclad, but there was general agreement that we would definitely see that the projects were carried out or implemented with the bond funds which included black participation, I mean there was an essence what we did. And that was good, but in the meantime, what was happening with the black groups except the David Hood who headed up, an attorney who headed up what was then the most influential black political organization called the progressive democratic council, in which was in arm of the Alabama Democratic Party, became disenchanted with because I had chosen Oscar Adams as the chief lead spokesman to go before these different groups and that&#039 ; s what they said the problem was. And the reason for them--that Oscar Adams was a republican, he was one of the few black republicans, blacks were always (inaudible), but Oscar had come from a republican family, Dan had been a republican way back and so their family were republican and the democrats all of a sudden-the black democrats didn&#039 ; t like the fact, the fact what they did was invite me down to it&#039 ; s now best western, but it was a holiday inn at that time, at the civic center. And there I met Bernice Johnson, who was a member of that group, I was a member of that group too, but, David and I think they had already decided they were going to disassociate themselves from this umbrella group, which we were just loosely calling some sort of coalition at that time. My proposal to them had been at the outset that the progressive democratic council will continue to be the political arm, and but we would empower the council more because all of the black civic group, the black community as a whole would be speaking only one voice. And I thought it was a great idea, I thought it was ideal quite frankly and as I said, at the meeting, they bought into and we did follow up meetings, but soon, I&#039 ; m called to this meeting at lunch one day down there with this committee and they tell me that they&#039 ; re unhappy because Oscar is speaking and I said, &quot ; You know it doesn&#039 ; t seem to me as that important, we&#039 ; re talking about issues that transcend these political boundaries.&quot ; And they said, &quot ; No you know we&#039 ; re democratic and we don&#039 ; t want a republican.&quot ; --but I think they had really decided to get Bell out. And so I said, &quot ; Well where do you want the spokesperson?&quot ; And they really didn&#039 ; t want a spokesperson ; they wanted to tell me--a nice way of telling me that they were pulling the organization out. Now this hurts us because, we don&#039 ; t have a political arm, we got a group of folks who are voters and influence other voters, but we don&#039 ; t have a political organization, that gets out there and puts out the sample ballot, does the political advertisement, because they are, not only were we attacked quietly by the black progressive democratic council, but Vincent Townsend attacked us through Ed Gardner, he called Ed Gardner and Ed relayed it to me, but it worked well for Vincent, and said, Ed, the Birmingham News had carried a story about out meeting and this umbrella group and says, &quot ; What is this happening, I thought you were the leader.&quot ; When y&#039 ; all make Arrington the leader and I think several calls to Ed, that led him to call me and he bailed out for the council and he called me and he told me what Townsend had said and I said, &quot ; Rev. Gardner, you know that&#039 ; s just a divide and conquer tactic.&quot ; But when he called me the second time, he told me the Alabama Movement for Christian (inaudible) Christian Movement, the human rights, what ever this group was called. They were withdrawing from the pack, from that coalition pack. And so it&#039 ; s just like I mean it&#039 ; s the efforts to try to hold folk together, it began to fragment and I got in a fight with the progressive council from of which I was a member and they had been supportive of me when I ran for office. But I was pushing for them to support younger blacks, Ronald Jackson, believe or not, (inaudible) legislation, they didn&#039 ; t want to support him, Jeff Germany was getting to run for something, it may have been the city council and I got up on the floor and I made the argument about the need to bring younger blacks in. But they weren&#039 ; t very open to that because they felt they had been tilling the field and the younger blacks hadn&#039 ; t been coming to meetings and all. And so we had another extend (inaudible) debate about that. All of these things coming together and I finally decided that I would take what was left of that umbrella group and we would become a political organization also, in 1977 we incorporated Jefferson county citizens coalition. And immediately eclipse the council as a major political body and we did assemble it by networking with the neighborhood association president, civic league presidents and all of that. Ministerial alliance, black ministerial alliance and all of that. And so that the Jefferson citizens coalition became a very influential group in the 70s and the 80s because it had a strong black voter base, it has some semblance of unity and although most of the ministers and a lot of the presidents never were card toting members of the coalition, but they were strong supporters. And they implemented whatever we recommended, where the sample ballot, they pushed it, they pushed through the churches, they pushed it through (inaudible) organization, many of our members were neighborhoods presidents and of course people that got to be neighborhood president, because they were influential in their neighborhoods and so when they came from the coalition meeting and said this is what we&#039 ; re going to do, the people followed him. And so from that we built an organization, our people were thrilled at the Birmingham News writing stories about how powerful we were and I was warning them all the time, look they&#039 ; re setting us up for execution, they&#039 ; re going to crucify us, they&#039 ; re wanting people, you better watch this group because they had started calling us the political machine, well you know, they were (inaudible) very gleeful over that, you know, here&#039 ; s a black group and we (inaudible) powerful. And I was saying no, you got to understand, what they&#039 ; re saying to people you better watch this group, you get a political machine, political machines are not good, you know, well, that&#039 ; s what they were doing. To the extent that the black vote determined the outcome of issues. We were a force to be reckoned with ; certainly when you dealt with a city where it was a majority of vote was black inside the city, we were very influential for almost 20 years, no question about the influence. But nobody ran in this county, nobody but a few people, particularly democrats even ran statewide without seeking the support of this group, because the center of black political strength is here in Jefferson County. I mean it&#039 ; s a predominantly black belt area, but quite frankly I noticed a long time ago when count up all the votes in the black belt, you don&#039 ; t have that many vote, every vote count, but the center for black political thing is first to all Birmingham, second is Mobile and then Montgomery. So I had that organization when I ran for office, the coalition was there and the fact that I was a founder of it and initially I was founder of it, I was the first president and then I became the mayor, I think that also added to the statute of the organization and brought more people in and brought greater support, I think that was a desire among black voters to see the first black mayor succeed and the coalition became sort of the mechanism through which we worked, that made us influential. It also helped me to withstand some of the battles, because I had a solid core of black supporters, I was not as vulnerable to negative news reporting and so forth as a political would normally be, because I had a strong base. I think that some political observers and some of the journalists thought that was bad for Birmingham because they see the news media as watchdogs and you have to have something that puts some fear and caution in politicians and one thing is the media writing about them and stirring the folk up and I think they began to feel Arrington doesn&#039 ; t have to listen if he doesn&#039 ; t want to because he got in his pocket enough votes to keep getting him elected. And I think that always bothered people, but the coalition&#039 ; s been good, as we grown older and many of the people in my generation, we&#039 ; ve gotten old, some of the key people have died in my generation. The young people have come in and organization, numbers-wise every year we issue--if people want to pay a ten dollar membership fee, we issued some four-hundred and some odd cards every year and we have some seven day people who attend coalition meetings every last Saturday in every month, that continues. But the organizations are not as nearly as active, first of all, in the early days people were excited and they got out they worked, they worked in neighborhoods. You couldn&#039 ; t believe the kind of political organization there was in networking. In recent years we have to pay people to work, people have gotten accustomed to seeing blacks in office and blacks on boards they accepted them. Very few people will volunteer, we&#039 ; ve distributed ballots, we would mail them out, but if we go door to door with them, we have to pay somebody to do that. If we follow the old pattern, the coalition started a pattern of standing outside the polling places handing out sample ballots ; we would just inundate the black community with sample ballots. And even though we would put one at every door or taken them to all the churches, distributing them on Sundays, we would still, on election day, put two people outside of every black polling place handing out the sample ballots, I mean just inundating everyone. Of course eventually all the other groups came on and started the doing the same thing. It sort of creates havoc at some polling places, folks get out in their six- seven different folks handing them sample ballots. Now we did all of that, the coalition-we took issues on little things, things people don&#039 ; t even know, the W Clemons case, being a federal judge, being tried out in--not tried but under grand jury investigation out in California, the coalition played a major part, I was down vacationing in the islands in Jamaica. My wife called me telling me the FBI was at the house and they had to find, just because the grand jury wanted me out in Los Angeles and so I had to cut short my vacation, come back and go to Los Angeles and go before a grand jury on the matter of some questions about EW Clemons, that had grown out of some things his sister had been involved in federal funds. I saw that grand jury doing the same thing I&#039 ; ve seen other grand juries do, I think the prosecutor--they were just--you got some top lawyers--it just didn&#039 ; t look good. In fact, one of the grand jurors came out when I had finished my testimony, a young black guy from Los Angeles, he followed me out and he says, &quot ; I&#039 ; m so glad you came you, you know.&quot ; You&#039 ; re the first guy who came here and really spoke for this man, because they didn&#039 ; t know how--they can really do you in I mean, the government has a lot of power. If you had a girlfriend, they had done all of that, they brought in everything, all the money you had spent, which hotels you stayed in, I didn&#039 ; t have everything (inaudible) they can paint such a picture. But what we did, we had came--the coalition hired three attorneys here, I&#039 ; m trying to think of the name. But anyway, we hired three attorneys to begin looking into the EW Clemons thing, they helped and we began looking especially at the investigative methods that the FBI used. I had learned from that and we learned first things like, they had gone to his church and he had left his briefcase there and they got the old janitor, the janitor opens up and lets them in and they go through his briefcase, I mean they did stuff that was just illegal and that happens. And we documented all of that and we raised a bunch of issues and we entered that to Washington to Al Gore and had him to look at it, he was Vice President and he was so concerned about it, he then went to the judiciary committee and from that, they went to the justice department and from there, the justice department informed the prosecutor that the US attorney out in California to drop it. I mean that&#039 ; s not a story we had (inaudible), but EW knows that is a fact, we have it documented. And we got involved in a lot of that I mean, when the whole thing about black elected officials started, the strong suspicion of how I got to be a target eventually down the road was a fact that we called together the first groups of blacks from all across the state to form a group to protest the harassment of black officials and of course the coalition was in the forefront and I was asked to be the chief spokesperson. And we put together the reports and followed them and that went on and on, the coalition did things like that, we then formed a statewide group today we&#039 ; ve been kicked out of it, but it was the new south coalition, I was the founder and the president of the New South Coalition. I did that because young blacks from across the state like Michael Figgers, Hank Sanders and all came to my office had been encouraging me to pull together a group. I didn&#039 ; t want to do it because Joe Reed was seeing it as a group that was going to be a competition for his democratic council, so anyway, we done a lot of those kinds of things. The organization still goes along, and it survives, it is not as effective and it just constantly the target of attacks because people know it&#039 ; s a popular (inaudible). It is the white media and the white community certainly viewed it as a negative and I don&#039 ; t understand all the reasons, why except I think any group that teams blacks together politically, it creates fear in a lot of the people in the white community. And when the white media is also telling them this group was this, that and this powerful and I think people get worried about where power is. Then over the years, erosion occurs, you can&#039 ; t support everybody, you support some people and you help the win the office and then later on you have a difference of opinion with them and you help to defeat them. And so your enemy gets (inaudible) and you find out eventually you&#039 ; re being attacked by former black elected officials, by the whites and so forth after a while they carry out a campaign to discredit the organization. On the coalition, even today, they get to the point, I&#039 ; m not going to support the coalition people because people handling, say the coalition, they created all the stalemate of city hall, they do this, that and the other, it is interested, you know, but that sort of how the organization continues to work today. LEMONTE: You mentioned membership of around, was that the membership when the coalition was at its peak as well? ARRINGTON: Yeah, it might have been a few more frankly, all of us kept the organization open, even today, we&#039 ; d let anybody come in except media, I mean we have guest. We try to be a very open organization. We kept it open so that people who did not want to support, say a slate or a position we took on referendum, was free to support anything else or if they&#039 ; re working on a campaign, we set up rules where all you had to do say, I&#039 ; m already committed to this candidate and I&#039 ; m going to work the campaign and tell us that and therefore you participated on the political action committee under the debate about whether or not to endorse. We did a lot of things ; we kept it flexible enough in hopes of keeping people in. We started letting a lot of people in it, people like Lee Loder who was one of the founders, but he left us a long time ago once he ran for the county commission and we supported Ruben Davis and he&#039 ; s never forgiven us for it and today his son of course sits on the city council and it&#039 ; s just interesting for me as I look knowing the history. But the attendance has always been good and even today as I say, we get 400 and when something is going and you don&#039 ; t pack the place, 100 and something folks would show, but the truth is that most of them don&#039 ; t worry. A lot of the people who worked hard are old now and they don&#039 ; t get out--they can&#039 ; t out (inaudible) they can&#039 ; t get out and do all of things they used to. They can&#039 ; t walk all over the place and do all of that and the younger folks, they saw that we were paying people to do and so nobody does anything unless they get paid now. And these are the kinds of things that shape and it needs frankly, you know it needs new leadership, a new infusion of leadership and it needs to done and it&#039 ; s got to be somebody who excites people. I excited folks, not because of my personality, but because I had been elected first to the council and I had been the spokesperson quote for the black community on police brutality, which the black community understood and I got elected to be the first black mayor. And although I don&#039 ; t have the great personality, but the point is I am the first black to do these things. And so I&#039 ; ve become embraced by the community, if I then have an organization one way to become visibly supportive of me and to associate with me and if I had a particular strength is that once I&#039 ; ve dealt with people closely, a one-on-one I mean, they found something they liked about me and they became sort of loyal to me. And so I was that kind of catalyst for that politically building quite frankly, many of my detractors were hoping by the time I left office, once I left office, the coalition would be no more, the coalition was dead because, for them the coalition was Dick Arrington and few loyal falls and so we&#039 ; ve been tested, see what happens. We really new another start arise that bring folks back, particularly young folks back because young people (inaudible). Do we need to have team politics, should elected officials be independent, they get confused. They think because we hand out a sample ballot to folk, that&#039 ; s insulting, when in fact, all over America, they&#039 ; re handing out sample ballots, the Birmingham news and the post herald (inaudible) slate area election, but when we endorse a slate, our critics convince folks through talk shows and so forth, that we&#039 ; re a political machine trying to tell them how to vote and how dare we hand out sample ballots we think folks are not intelligent enough to know how to vote. While the Christian coalition passes them out at the churches now by millions and vote all over the country, it&#039 ; s a whole lot of political games people play, but the organization can&#039 ; t remain viable unless it can deal with that and offset it and that&#039 ; s what we&#039 ; re needing to do but we really need young blood to do it and step forward. And so we&#039 ; re going through an interesting period of transition and every election, particularly every city election, for right now, is almost a referendum of the coalition, everyone of them. And people standing by hoping to kill the coalition candidates on every hand. LEMONTE: What was the process of determining who would be on the sample ballot that of coalition issue? ARRINGTON: We had a political action committee put together by the president and submitted to the body and body proved it. We would let, we added people according to what the body say and that committee did handle what ever screening candidates we did, a screening of issues and then by vote of that body, we&#039 ; ll bring it back to the whole body and the body votes on it. Now even within the organization I have to say, we have had very few fights, we&#039 ; ve had some cases where we had, I can&#039 ; t think of the dentist&#039 ; s name, he came in, this happened with politicians, folks decide that they&#039 ; re going to run for office, they come in and join the organization, that&#039 ; s no problem, you can join our organization and fill out the card and next month the committee comes back and the body votes you in, they haven&#039 ; t turned down anybody. LEMONTE: Any white applicants? ARRINGTON: We got one white member, just one white member, the guy who runs the Edwards furniture company, he was at the last meeting, I haven&#039 ; t seen him. But just one white member in that group, at one time we had about three or four, but now we&#039 ; re down to one--. LEMONTE: But never had a problem accepting more if they had chosen to do so? ARRINGTON: It&#039 ; s just been seen as a black group and it&#039 ; s been a group that&#039 ; s focused largely on so-called black community problems and I think that sort of circumscribed--a membership I was speaking to some point, I don&#039 ; t if you remember what it was-- LEMONTE: The process, the selecting of those who would be endorse? ARRINGTON: That&#039 ; s the way we do it, now once in city elections, once we went to districts, what we did we made sure that the so-called political action committee that does the screening, that we have district committees and then they bring in district 6 (skip in tape) once you&#039 ; re endorsed we do the sample ballot, we mail it out and we distribute it, we buy the radio advertisement, we run radio ads on your behalf and we run a phone bank on your behalf. And at area elections we run a citywide transportation system and it&#039 ; s a pretty good organization and when it&#039 ; s working, it&#039 ; s outstanding. LEMONTE: Did you regard it rubber stamp, which was the way the media frequently depicted it, that if you went in and express preference, that almost became the result? ARRINGTON: I didn&#039 ; t regard it as that, but I don&#039 ; t think that was far from the truth, I think that the members of the organization were anxious to follow my leadership. Sometimes I remained quiet on issues as they debate them, but once I spoke on it that was it, most folks felt they had to support it, but I think that was true, it&#039 ; s changed somewhat, but it hasn&#039 ; t changed totally, even today, because they got a lot of younger folks in there now. But I would tell you the older people in there, they are still the same way, they want to know what I have to say, even when I was the president, (inaudible) the first time I stepped down and then (inaudible) became the president and then Louis Spratt became the president. Then we tried to make Linda Coleman, but the men in there wouldn&#039 ; t accept a woman as president, I think that sort of broke her heart and gave her a sour taste about it because she had been a hardworking organization and we still don&#039 ; t have a woman president, the women have to secretary and things like that. ARRINGTON: We&#039 ; re still an organization, so but even today the older people claim their old ways of thinking. We&#039 ; ve tried to bring in young folks in a lot of places, I mean, take for example, people don&#039 ; t know how I fought to get Hank Nelson on the school board of education, the arguments at the coalition--and we had control because we had some coalition people who were loyal to us on the council and therefore we could control those board appointments. The arguments about Hank Sanders was, they didn&#039 ; t like him-- LEMONTE: Hank Nelson? ARRINGTON: Nelson, yeah I meant, he hadn&#039 ; t been here, what does he participate in? I never seen him in nothing, he live over there in the white community on the Southside, he&#039 ; s not one of us. We&#039 ; re arguing that--what we must do to strengthen the black communities is to reach out to these young people who we struggle or educate, their families spend their last penny to get them educated and so forth, we got to bring them in circle, at least help those who we think got leadership abilities. But you had a pool of good community workers who have been around a long time, who felt they had paid their dues and they needed to be elected, that would pay off for them, they wanted to run for office, well we don&#039 ; t want to endorse anybody for city council who is not already recognized in his or her community as somebody who&#039 ; s been doing something there. Well unfortunately when you look at that, it sort of condemns a lot of the young folks because they&#039 ; re not the ones that go to neighborhood association meetings, they don&#039 ; t get elected president or officer, they&#039 ; re not there. And the only time they will show up at those meetings is when they&#039 ; re running for offices. And still the folks saying well, where have they been and that really has shaped endorsements and look of things a whole lot, like who gets on there, because people say, well Mr. Sams, so and so, she did, well she&#039 ; s good enough to be the neighborhood and she&#039 ; s (inaudible). That&#039 ; s who we ought to be supporting, this guy is from Harvard, MIT and he&#039 ; s a nice fellow, he might have great potential, but he ain&#039 ; t been coming to the meeting, I mean that really goes on, now how we change all of that, I don&#039 ; t know, that&#039 ; s why I think they young leadership coming in, we&#039 ; ll probably change it and it may be necessary for the organization to survive. LEMONTE: You mentioned the coalition responding to the creation of districts, when you first ran for mayor, the council was elected at large and then the change of districts occurred, I guess in the early 90s perhaps-- ARRINGTON: 80s. LEMONTE: What difference did that make for you as mayor, particularly in terms of the city council and its relationship to you and how do assess overall the moved districts? ARRINGTON: Well I, first of all I was never really for the move of districts, let me say that, because I just thought giving Birmingham&#039 ; s history, districts could only create more division, we had reached a point in Birmingham where there was about, black and white votes were almost equal and when you run city wide, you couldn&#039 ; t afford to ignore the problems in either group and that was one thing that was overcoming the racial division. We got to a point in Birmingham, once the Voting Rights Act passed, that you have--and you&#039 ; re running for the council, you had to assume a moderate position, because you have to draw votes from, you had to get white votes, you had to get black votes, I mean that was just a hardcore facts. And that was good for Birmingham I will tell you the truth, because it was a bridge builder for Birmingham and it was a moderator for the politicians in Birmingham. So I never wanted to see the city go to total districts, even though I knew the law and I think David had argued the one man, one vote kind of thing and it&#039 ; s good. But for Birmingham, I think it was good and I still, even today feel the same way about it because people are just different. Politicians respond to those who get them elected and what have you. I&#039 ; m sure that my--first of going to districts and the changing makeup of the city&#039 ; s population, the growing number of blacks and black dominance in numbers within the city&#039 ; s on the city&#039 ; s voting roll, made a difference for me, it helped me with projects, it made me stronger politically as a mayor. But the truth is that when we were even at large and when my first two or three councils that I worked with were majority white councils. And I don&#039 ; t think I had any difficulties getting programs passed, in part because I had served with them, I knew them, I had one fight with Nina and Betty, but just before left council, but before that I didn&#039 ; t. Because I worked the same way with those councils that were predominantly white and during that time, there was a council election every two years ; I worked the same way with them as I sort of worked with this group. Also I had--they had to consider the fact that there was a strong black vote out there that they also depended on. And I think my political style of dealing with them was one where I didn&#039 ; t push them or what have you, I kept them informed, I consulted with them a head of time about programs I wanted to push and tried to be persuasive that way so when I brought it up, I knew I had the support. I think they were very mindful--you know sometimes they get angry, they fault me on things like a theme park and all that. But generally speaking I think if it was something they could swallow and thing was good for the community, they went along with it, also being mindful of the fact that there was a large black vote out there, which they also in part depended upon, which they knew was very supportive of me. The other thing that happened was once we went to districts, that gave some independence to whites that they did not have by independence I mean from the political pressure of a black vote. In fact the plaintiffs in the case that we settled in that district, make no secret of it, in their what ever they documented brief, they clearly stated in there, that a major reason that they wanted to go to districts was because of the coalition and they wanted to get rid of the dominance of the Jefferson County Citizens Coalition and they stated that it mattered not with them, it didn&#039 ; t matter if they only got 1 person that represent (inaudible) coalition could not be--. LEMONTE: So the plaintiffs that were claiming that were minorities discriminated against were in fact white plaintiffs? ARRINGTON: Russell Yarborough started pushing a council, remember after somebody, I don&#039 ; t know---after his defeat or somebody--and as I said, they just didn&#039 ; t make a secret of it, they put it in the brief it&#039 ; s all written out. So it didn&#039 ; t change the racial makeup of the council, we were 6-3 at the time, when it was at large, had gotten to the point because the growing black vote and the movement of whites out of the city, it was a 6-3 racial breakdown, remains even today as 6-3 racial breakdown. I thought it was going to go 7-2 this time, but when they got through drawing the line, it&#039 ; s still the same. So it didn&#039 ; t change the racial makeup of it, but it changed the behavior in politicians, because it became district-oriented, not city- wide and of course a lot of the division crept in and the fights and so forth and of course it accentuated black/white thing to a degree and then the blacks were by and large coalition folks, endorse by coalition in most cases, at least 5 or 6 or so always, but brought in all of the problems you have in a political setting. LEMONTE: The thinking of the plaintiffs was if there were whites that were elected, they would have to gain the endorsement of the coalition and then would be the part of that court machine? ARRINGTON: George Sibyls was also one of the key folks who had always been in a mind that you know, I (inaudible) too powerful, he had never forgotten the fact that I played a role in his defeated and he had never forgiven me for that and all of that. And he was very active in that group, but they said we wanted to elect some candidates that are not controlled by the coalition. Even though now candidates are controlled by the coalition because the coalition has controlled (inaudible) influence of the black voters and you can&#039 ; t get elected, even whites can&#039 ; t elected today without some significant black support and who control that black support, the coalition. And under the Voting Rights Act you know, we think we&#039 ; re being discriminated against because we don&#039 ; t get fair representation as minorities. And it they stated something in there that even if we only get one person elected whose not influenced by the coalition, it would be worth it. LEMONTE: You ran for mayor five times, did the nature of your campaigns change over that period of time, or did you retain basically the same campaign style? ARRINGTON: It never really changed, I had broad reception always in the black community and stayed that way, except that (inaudible) gets you (inaudible) no matter which community you&#039 ; re in, you get political enemies and detractors and so whereas the first two or three elections, I&#039 ; m winning about 60 something percent of campaign, it drops down and you start winning like 57-58 and when I was leaving, I was probably winning 54% of the vote and even though the votes were black, it changes generations and all that get to be a part of it. But my campaigning didn&#039 ; t change, I even went to--. LEMONTE: I believe we stopped in talking about the change to districts and then we were talking about your campaign and the changes in your campaign style over the times that you ran for office? ARRINGTON: No, I think the campaign style remain essentially the same, (inaudible) ran for office, I got an access the second time I ran, maybe to a broader audience. But I the style didn&#039 ; t change, I remember going out in a more conservative areas of the city, in the eastern area, I go during the campaign for reelection, to go before their screening committee, Mr. Blackburn had made sure that I got before the screening committee. They had a huge screening committee, I must have had about 50 people on the committee, they had pulled in people from all over the eastern area, a few of whom I was familiar with some of the attorneys downtown. And so I went out there well-prepared at least a challenge then, and so I carried with me a list of every public improvement project that had been done by the city during my term as mayor and passed that out so they could check it off and they could not deny that we had given some significant attention to the eastern area. And also sort of staunch the talk that they had been doing, some of them-- that I did nothing for the eastern, I had no concerns about that area, but when I put the list--and they went down the list, and it was a long list because we had done a lot of things out in that area, some major projects and they couldn&#039 ; t deny and I understand from talking with Mr. Blackburn and few others after I left that place, that it create a little division, they had a serious debate as to whether or not they were going to endorse me. Now that would have really been an achievement and a triumph at that particular time, to get an endorse from this political action committee representing the eastern area. They just finally concluded, I&#039 ; m told that they just couldn&#039 ; t that, people wouldn&#039 ; t understand, but at least they didn&#039 ; t deny that time, that I had done some things that were important in that area. But my style stayed basically the same, I never changed it ; it was dictated in part by the neighborhood structure we have in the city with neighborhood associations, there were few other groups that provided for them. I had a televise debate in the second campaign with John Katapotis, that was carried by local television. That was about the only time I had gotten on TV in a campaign, I never used any television for any of my campaign, that was sort of part of what we thought was a campaign strategy, (inaudible) radio ads and things of that sort and then printed material. But the style as far as I can recall really did not change, I probably campaign hardest the last time I ran, I was under the stronger attack and about what was being done in the city and so forth and as I had learned earlier, you do have to remind voters of what things that have been done because you can achieve some big projects, projects that are important for them, you get those accomplished and people tend to forget them. I mean you can put in, the neighborhood that&#039 ; s been flooding for 50 years and you can go in and put in 5 million dollars worth of sewers to stop the flooding and after a months they forget all about the fact that it was ever flooded, so you have to campaign and remind people of what&#039 ; s been done. ARRINGTON: I don&#039 ; t think my campaign style changed very much. LEMONTE: You spoke earlier about the fact that your very, very strong base of support in the black community at the beginning sort of eroded over time as there were issues and disagreements among your supporters, so that I believe the percentage of the black vote that you received declined over time. What happened to the white over time and how do you account for that? ARRINGTON: Well, I never got more than about 12% of the white vote, I probably got the most white votes the first time I ever ran in 1979 and I was really never able to increase it, it sort of stayed stuck at about 10,11, 12 percent, except that I was under the grand jury investigation by the federal government and it dropped down to around 4 or 5 percent. Well, how do we account for that, basically bottom line, I think many whites just really never felt comfortable with me and I learned over time that people don&#039 ; t really vote for people that they don&#039 ; t feel comfortable with, I mean you have to make them feel comfortable, I think there was another factor involved earlier and that was the fact that many whites in Birmingham had never voted for a black before, had a few whites to say that to me, who were commending me from time to time about the job I was doing, but admitted to me that they didn&#039 ; t vote for me and that they never voted for a black, so that kind of voting behavior also, I think played a role in, but you know about the end of my third term, the candidate, there were no serious white candidates in the race. I believe when I ran for my forth and fifth term, I ran against, my major contender was Emory Anthony and Emory was able to poll a large number of white votes, he got about 80% of the white votes and they came right back in the last election running against me again and Emory Anthony was a municipal judge at the time in the city of Birmingham. And he came right back and ran against me the second and he still polled about 80%, the first time he did it, I attributed his success with the white vote to a couple of things, he had a very strong phone bank being run by the firefighters and the FOP and they tax busters, a group called themselves tax busters and they were calling white voters on his behalf, I think a part of the message in addition to the fact that Anthony was, in their opinion, a better candidate for Birmingham was that they saw it as a way of getting rid of Arrington, who represented, of course machine politician and who quite frankly had never won voters. I came into office as I said earlier, there were issues about police, minorities participation, all of those battles I fought and in the minds of some voters, I think there was a perception that Arrington is racist and he deals too much with race, he doesn&#039 ; t support the police officers and I just think over time with people running against me and to reinforce that kind of thing, whites just really--the majority of them were about--85-90 % percent of them just never were comfortable enough to support me. Even some of them I think, who thought that I was doing a pretty good job, but they just never got around to feeling that they could support me. I always claim that one major contribution I made is, that these voters wanted so badly to get rid of me, that they finally started voting for a black and that changed their voting behavior because they realize that the mayor was likely to be a black, given the way blacks and whites vote in this town and the make up of the voting roll is going to be a black. And so they finally recognized that and after Bob McKee ran, ran a very weak campaign against me, got about 30% of the vote, I think they realize they had to come up with a strategy and that their mayor was going to be a black at least for the time being and they had better try to find a black whom they trusted and wanted to support. And I think once the people change their behavior, once they had voted for a black, I think from here on and they&#039 ; ve been able to do it, they did it for Kincaid, did it twice for Anthony, so we did see some evolution there in the behavior. LEMONTE: Do you think it&#039 ; s possible that Birmingham might have a white mayor at some point in the future? ARRINGTON: I think that it&#039 ; s possible ; yes I think it&#039 ; s possible. It&#039 ; s not going to be easily done, but I think there is some whites whom, a few who could run a very good race and might be elected. I&#039 ; ve had some people to talk with me about it and had some names tossed around and of course, one guy, his name is Lemont (jokingly referring to Lemont). And so I think it&#039 ; s possible, I think a white that already has some identity and it&#039 ; s positive identity and acceptance in the black community to be a very serious candidate. LEMONTE: The media topic seems to me an important one and I guess a complicated topic, radio, TV, press, historically white press, black press, but could you talk some about your relationships with media and the importance of media in shaping the political environment? ARRINGTON: Well, my relationship with the media was never really bad, it wasn&#039 ; t good, but it wasn&#039 ; t really bad ; number one, my personality and so forth just didn&#039 ; t lend itself to the media, I didn&#039 ; t have the flair that they usually find in politicians who loved the spotlight and who can give them good sound bites and things of that sort. So I preferred to stay away from the media as much as I could, although I tried when they requested to be accessible. I got interestingly, I got fairly good support from the media when I ran. I got endorsements for example, even when I won in &#039 ; 79, the big story there, a few days before the Birmingham news came out with this endorsement, was the fact that they were going to endorse, they were going to endorse me over David Vann and over the other candidates. Mr. Vincent Townsend first apparently had agreed with his editorial committee, they had gone to him and they were just elated that he had agreed, in fact some of them leaked the word to us, I had learned about it and they were really pleased because they never thought that he would never do it. Well when the endorsement came out that, the day they endorsed me, came out in the newspaper. What they did was sort of a dual endorsement, in the Birmingham News ; I think the post gave me an endorsement. The Birmingham News did a dual endorsement with David Vann/Dick Arrington kind of thing and I learned from the people who had been leaking the information to me, that Mr. Townsend had left the office early and was at home listening to the 5:00 news and one of the local TV channels, I think it was 6, ran a poll result and had me up around 40 something percent, which is what I eventually polling. And had the closest competitors of somewhere around 15-20% and he picked up the phone immediately and I was apparently (inaudible) this guy could win and he called in and he them to change the editorials to do from endorsement meeting that he had approved to do a (inaudible) endorsement. But after that I got the news in the post herald endorsement, sometimes they did it with slight reservation, but they gave me good endorsements, what did happen with the media, the daily papers was that, in the last two years, I think they sort of decided that I was having too much of what they call a cakewalk and so what they would do is like two or three weeks out, they would run stories on me and they would get like on what I had accomplished and not and they would get pretty critical. One year they did a grading at one of those things and I was surprised how they graded me down, you know, they were giving me Cs, Ds, Fs in areas and so forth, but I learned from some reporters that that was sort of what they decided to do as they thought it was time to try to make the races for mayor more competitive and they didn&#039 ; t like the fact that I was running the machine backing. And so what they would do is bash me for couple of weeks on a series that they would do, but they would still come back and put their endorsements out--but they would still endorse me. So I learned to get along with the media, my first term wasn&#039 ; t good, you know, I didn&#039 ; t understand, they gave me a honeymoon when I first got in there, they let that run for like two, a couple of months and then took out after me about some things, you know the gasoline truck that Willie Davis had released. Two or three little items you know, they said I had some sort of mentality because David Vann had taken the door off as some indication as to he had (inaudible) over administration and I of course had the door put back up. So they said I had a besieged mentality, so they gave me--after that that went fine I mean, (inaudible) deal with everybody, the reporting really wasn&#039 ; t bad, they always hit the coalition. I had a rough time with the media when I had the organization the backing all-black slate of candidates. They tarred and feathered me on that one, but overall it wasn&#039 ; t terribly bad. LEMONTE: And that occurred during your first term as I recall? ARRINGTON: Yeah it was my first term and that was a big, big, big story. We had a situation in the coalition where we had some strong black candidates running and at that time, we still had a (inaudible) of people in the organization and it came down to Pat Davis whose pretty strong candidate, (inaudible) a very big fight in the organization, not a debate about it and the group frankly really split down, not permanently, but on that issue and what the two war agreed on was those who were for--Pat--we&#039 ; re gonna print dollars and put out-- include her on the slate. And it would be all five blacks instead of four blacks endorse. And those who wanted Nina we printed some ballots and they could go out and campaign for Nina. We did that of course, but the big story was that it was an all-black slate and of course I recognize that, that was really for the coalition anyway. It was not the right thing to do, but that was a good strategy behind it, good political strategy behind it because blacks were not so dominant in terms of voters at that time, that the black vote controlled, we knew that, what the discussion had been that the only way we were going to get a black majority on the council, was to convince black voters, now remember, we&#039 ; re still running city-wide for the council. To convince black voters to vote an all-black slate and out of that we thought we&#039 ; d get three blacks elected. I think we had William Bell on the council and maybe Jeff Germany was on that, they had two blacks on there, it&#039 ; s before Bessie Estelle came on there I know that. And so that was a strategy because the black vote was significant, but it wasn&#039 ; t controlling and everybody had to run at large in the city. And so in a number of sessions with the political action committee people, decided that the only way we were going to get a majority is that we could somehow come out and get the voters to vote a straight black thing and out of that we&#039 ; d probably get three. Well of course the whole thing backfired on us and we were lucky that we got one black elected and that was William Bell, who was (inaudible) at the time, and he was reelected, but that strategy really backfired on us. LEMONTE: You mentioned briefly, the campaign that occurred during a year when you were under investigation by the FBI? ARRINGTON: Yeah. LEMONTE: That&#039 ; s a long and complicated and I&#039 ; m sure unpleasant topic for you, but would you discuss that and what your view is to why it happened and what its impact was you as mayor and maybe as a person? ARRINGTON: Well the impact was powerful and terrible to be very honest with you, for me and for my family and really for a lot of people who supported and I thought even for the black community. Because the one thing black voters wanted to be proud of was a mayor and they didn&#039 ; t want mayor who was supposedly corrupt or anything of that sort. That&#039 ; s one of the things that they had been proud of, dealing with me is that they tell people that I was impeccable, my character--you know all of these kinds of things. So it was really a very difficult time, but now as to why it occurred, I don&#039 ; t fully know, but I have a whole lot of information on that. At one point when the US attorney in Montgomery indicted three legislatures from Birmingham, people have forgotten that, that&#039 ; s interesting. But they indicted EB McClain, Pat Davis, John Rogers, and Jim White, there was a white, so they indicted those four and it came on the heels of a lot of investigation of black elected officials. Apparently was the occurring really sort of threw out the country and I was called upon at the time to call together black political leadership and political activists in the state to form some sort of organization to campaign against what we call harassment of black elected officials and I did that. I called (inaudible) we called and met in Montgomery at Dexter Ave Baptist Church, the church that was once pastured by Dr. King, right down the street from the state capitol. It was well-attended and we had a news conference, interesting enough I had a couple of FBI guys posing as news reporters, when I got out of my car, they ran up and they started asking me questions about, it was a black guy, he was in the city jail for something and his close friend Willie Davis--I mean they started asking embarrassing things and they tried to harass me during the--I mean they didn&#039 ; t act like journalists at all, it turned out later I learned that they were the FBI guys, they do that kind of stuff. But we went through that, we formed a group and I wrote a paper and we sent it off to congress our report and we did some research and we talked about what was happening in Georgia, an investigation of Maynard Jackson by the FBI and his police chief, Eldrin Bell and we got that code and we got a lot of information and we complained that there was a plan for black harassment. Well, it may have been that I was already targeted for some kind of investigation at least, they looked closely at me, I just didn&#039 ; t know it. I learned-- and if not I thought some people said you know, the role I was playing as a spokesperson, certainly didn&#039 ; t endear me to the federal officials in there at all because I was attacking the federal officials. The local republicans had sent Joe Dixon to me before this happened, once when I was criticizing Reagan, after he got in office and this was around &#039 ; 82 or &#039 ; 83. And Joe Dixon, who is a republican black newspaper, came to my office one day, to bring me a message from a republican--he said it&#039 ; s from the Republican Party, but they had a meeting over at the HUD office. And he said and the director was of course, I don&#039 ; t want to call his name, but he was the director of HUD and was active republican. And they were very unhappy with the things I was saying about the president and they had sent me some threatening messages, but I didn&#039 ; t pay any attention to it, I thought they were silly really, because I didn&#039 ; t think the republican party as a whole or anybody in Washington cared what a man down here in Birmingham said about Reagan. He&#039 ; s a very popular president, but these local folks were angry with me because I was criticizing him in the media and saying he was abandoning cities and then he had bailed out on us on that reverse discrimination thing and I was being very negative about it. So that helps to build up the element (inaudible) Arrington&#039 ; s got to get his. Now then from a very reliable source, a person who once held a very high office in the state, came and wanted to meet with me and now congressman, Earl Hilliard and he told us that he had a female friend in the Mobile office for the US attorney general, and that she had informed him that there was what we call a hit list for black elected officials who were to be investigated and he gave us that list and of course I was at the top of the list. William Bell was on the list, they had-it was about 10 of us on that list and this official, a friend just wanted us to know, be careful because this is factual. They had the meetings in the Mobile office and this is the list of the people they are running investigations. So I had that information, then of course the FBI had come to see me once, but I didn&#039 ; t know what--I was naïve. About five of them came to the office to see me to ask about a building over in the Ensley area that we had sold to James Parker, who had been a partner of mine, either had been or later would be in the funeral business. And I didn&#039 ; t even know the building had been sold to him. This doctor had given us this old building, I guess he was writing it off as a tax benefit for him and I had of course turned the building over to Bob Land, the handler of community development. And we&#039 ; ve been having tenants in it, we just had one tenant and that was on the ground floor, there was a drug store and we never did anything with the building, the fact is the staff completely forgot that we owned it, even had the building. And as Bob Land explained it to me, James Parker who had this funeral home two or three blocks from the building came and inquiring about the building, purchasing the building. And found out the city owned the building and he went up to community development, I didn&#039 ; t even know he had been there and he talked with Bob and Bob then made a recommendation to us that we sell him the building. And of course we sold it to him on some very generous terms because when the man gave it to us, there was still an outstanding mortgage on it, but it was a very little--we hadn&#039 ; t been paying anything, so we sold it to him because eventually (inaudible) came back to the city. That led, particularly the folk over at HUD, since he was handling this through community development, to file a complaint against me and eventually five FBI agents came to my office to talk with me and question me about James Parker, right after that (inaudible) Brown, who ended up really eventually years later, turning some evidence, making some accusations against me for the FBI, but at that time (inaudible) I had just really met, Willie Davis had introduced Brown to me, had introduced Marjorie Peters to me, they come here from Atlanta and I had Brown setting up an office here and of course, he wanted--I gave him the architectural work for the Boutwell project. But it was also in the paper that Willie Davis, Charlie Brown, Rodger Hanson&#039 ; s son, but we had formed an energy conservation group, but I had gotten clearings from the ethics commission and they had told me yes I could participate, as long as we didn&#039 ; t do any business in the city, I was okay and of course the business we had, we had a contract with Tuskegee energy conservation, one at Alabama State on energy conservation, a few of us at the time. So anyway the FBI came to question me about all of that and they took notes about the Parker thing and I sat there and talked with them, I didn&#039 ; t have anything to hide, I talked with them and they left and I just sort of forgot about it after that(inaudible) I have to tell you about and then somehow they all come together before they finally make that move. A good republican friend of mine, locally, who had served in the legislature, I should not call his name, came to me, he had attended the Guy Hunt fundraiser at Houston Blount&#039 ; s home and he came after that fundraiser a day or two after that, he came to see me. And he told me that at that fundraiser there were a group of people there off in caucus and he went into it and he named them and they were very influential people and one very influential, very wealthy guy, we all know, was complaining to the other people that Frank Donaldson didn&#039 ; t have enough backbone to take on Arrington and raising the question about when was he going to do something about Arrington and so forth. And this gentleman was concerned about that and came to warn me that-- that was the kind of conversation that was going on there and you know he just felt I needed to know. But anyway I still sort of ignored all of those things and I got to be, I thought a friend of Mr. Donaldson and where I went to see him, I heard there were some questions being raised, I said well, I want to cooperate with you, he told me that wasn&#039 ; t true. He invited me to several of his workshops and seminars then he gave his numbers and says, &quot ; Anytime there&#039 ; s a problem you call me direct, whether I&#039 ; m in town or out of town.&quot ; Because by now, I&#039 ; m hearing from folks that Bill or what ever his senior prosecutor is, criminal cases, Bill Barnett is going around questioning people about me and people are sending me word that--a couple of tax lawyers said that you--you&#039 ; re a crook, this, that and the other. And then what really happened, I went to Mr. Donaldson, I had gotten a call from some people in Atlanta I knew, said there was a guy, he&#039 ; s a federal attorney named Barnett today and he&#039 ; s down here questioning us about you. So I immediately went over to see Mr. Donaldson and he assured all that. I said well they say that it&#039 ; s Bill Barnett. Bill wouldn&#039 ; t be doing that he said, I mean--he was so convincing that I really thought he probably didn&#039 ; t know what Barnett was doing at the time. He sat me down and slapped me on the shoulder, took my coat and talked with me and we started talking about some other problems, somebody had fired a bullet through the window one night at the federal courthouse at his office and we talked about that kind of thing and again he reassured that it was nothing. And they kept doing that and then when they empanel a grand jury and they started out by subpoenaing certain people who had done business with the city, the first one I knew about, was the people who had the concessions at legion field, the Yarboroughs and Robbie Yarborough came to office one day and said that he needed to see me and that he said that he talked with his attorney, he had be subpoenaed, he, his mother, and his brother. They had to bring all their books and so forth to the grand jury and he talked with his attorney afterwards and that he was completely at liberty to diverge what had gone on before the grand jury, that the law had changed and by them going before the grand jury, could come back and say what had happened. So he came and told me that they raised a lot of the questions about whether that I or anybody in the administration had asked them for favors because at that time, we had gotten them to partner, we&#039 ; d given them the contract, but they had to have a minority partner, they got a local black guy as their partner, I can&#039 ; t remember what T&#039 ; s name, we called him T. But they questioned him extensively about that, and so they came to tell me--then they questioned them about Marjorie Peterson, had she been to--well I still didn&#039 ; t-I just didn&#039 ; t worry much about it. And as more rumors began to fly and more people were going before the grand jury, we started inquiring about what was happening, we were being reassured and even the committee from the business community--it wasn&#039 ; t about me, they had started saying that they were (inaudible) corruption at city hall. They subpoenaed all of the records, a list--a computer printout of all of the vendors, going back for five years in the city. And they went through that list and cut out all of the black firms that we&#039 ; ve endorsed and then they subpoenaed the records of the black firms, so then they had investigated the minority participation program. And I don&#039 ; t how they had got (inaudible) soon, but you know I&#039 ; ve been fighting battles for minority businesses. I had gone to court ; I had shut down some contracts I had been fighting with the associated general contractors, the whole (inaudible) night, I guess some people said that it&#039 ; s got to be corruption, gotta be kickbacks in there. So that&#039 ; s what they were doing, they were investigating and they were just investigating corruption in the city hall, generally as they said and it turned out that they were really looking at the minority participation program and trying to find out what had happened. That&#039 ; s how we got into it, it was a (inaudible) drawn out investigation because they didn&#039 ; t really publicly turned their focus on me until close to the end. They said in August, when they were wrapping up the investigation-- LEMONTE: What year was that--? ARRINGTON: I think this was &#039 ; 92 I believe, &#039 ; 92 or &#039 ; 93, I can&#039 ; t recall. I ran for office because all of this was timed just months before when finally turned on me, just months before the election. So it was &#039 ; 94, &#039 ; 95 because I was to run for office that fall, it was that August that they turned on me. Bill Barnett had called--by that time I had an attorney, I had gotten Donald Watkins as my attorney simply because a (inaudible) needs an American name (inaudible) appeared in my life all of a sudden. I hadn&#039 ; t seen him since the first time I had run for office was in--it&#039 ; s like years ago (inaudible) now running for the fourth time. And he showed up at my house one night at 9:00, rings the doorbell, my daughter answers the door and of course he comes in and he tells me this horrifying story about when he was working for the FBI, he was in difficulty with them, in part of what he--they had reneged on a promise made to him. He had helped catch the comatose people who tried to avoid taxes and he had testified himself (inaudible) seen in the paper. But he had been an FBI (inaudible) got him on taxes and then they put him to work and let him work off his situation before they tried him and so--and they gave him money and he other people and he testified against. But when he thought that he had done all they had asked him to do and he was going to get a lighter sentence--afraid, thought he was going to get probation, they apparently turned on him--they already then told him they had another job for him and that&#039 ; s when they told him he had to help them to get evidence on me and some other blacks. And that&#039 ; s a long story, but he wasn&#039 ; t lying, because he started taping them and later we got the tapes after he was killed--we got the tapes from his attorney. Off his-some of his conversations with the FBI, where they were talking about the black legislature, so he was clearly were not lying about it. But he had become very upset because they had given him money and first got him to buy a building out in East Lake, which was eventually being renovated and they still had cross from what was then Woodlawn Baptist church and they had sent him to talk with me and William Bell and others about getting it rezoned and all of this and they offered money to see if we could help to get the properties rezoned. It&#039 ; s just an entrapment kind of thing and fortunately nobody had bought into what he was trying to do and he claims that after he was unsuccessful and yet, he had come to my office, before that he showed up one day at my office and (inaudible) calling Carolyn. I learned when he came to my house one night to spill the beans on the FBI and learned that--he came to my office and it was very strange, I hadn&#039 ; t seen Bob in I don&#039 ; t know how long. He talked in circles and I got a little bit impatient and I try to be nice and say well Bob I must go and he left and said that we would go to dinner sometime and I said fine. He came back a second time, he called, he came back, and he still was just talking about nothing. And (inaudible) said, &quot ; I want to take you to Cancun and all this kind of thing.&quot ; And so the third time he called, I told Carolyn, don&#039 ; t let him in ; I don&#039 ; t have time to be bothered. What I learned when he came to my house, he had admitted and put it in a sworn affidavit a few days later, that the FBI, he was wired and they were sitting outside of the city and listening to the entire conversation. It&#039 ; s a strange kind of story, we later found out all of that to be true, because I got my freedom of information pack and most of that stuff is in there, some references to it. So I don&#039 ; t know, but let me just sort of summarize this part of it. In August, Bill Barnett called Donald Watkins, my attorney and said, &quot ; Tell the mayor we have completed the investigated and we didn&#039 ; t find any wrongdoing on his part. He ought to be more selected about who his friends are like Marjorie Peters.&quot ; But we didn&#039 ; t find anything wrong that he had done. And I said well and that was August and it&#039 ; s late September and of course (inaudible) incident. We had been filing complaints with the Washington office and made some very negative comments about the Washington office and how inept they were and what they couldn&#039 ; t do and so forth. And Donald Watkins, my attorney wrote those up and sent them to the Washington office, so I&#039 ; m sure that enraged Barnett and I suspected that it had something to do with furthering his plan to do something about it. He had been telling a number of folks that I was a crook, he had tried to get some folks to get me indicted in what they said about what was going on and I knew all of that. We had gotten affidavits ; we had been fighting a bitter battle with him about folk who had asked to help create evidence. So interesting enough he and Marjorie Peters&#039 ; attorney who were jailed--Chestnut from Selma, had a little spat. Apparently Chestnut, as a defense attorney was entitle to certain information about his client and what the charges were and what evidence was. And Barnett did not want to release and so he says to Chestnut, &quot ; If you filed a motion with the court and insist on getting this, I&#039 ; m going to name the mayor as an un-indicted coconspirator.&quot ; And so Chestnut of course come straight from his office over to my office and tells me and I get the lawyer. And we say that guy is just bluffing, you go ahead and Chestnut filed his motion and two days after that Barnett named me as a un-indicted coconspirator, which he personally did. I was an un-indicted coconspirator ; he named me and a young man working for Herman Russell, (inaudible) that young man&#039 ; s career. Eventually had to move him out of here and move him on up, but anyway, and that&#039 ; s when the attention eventually turned to me for 18 months, I was--the grand jury was investigating me and they investigated--it all started when I was in--I tell this story because there are so many pieces you have to tie it all together. I was hosting the mayors of six cities here in Alabama. We had formed the (inaudible) group, the mayor of Mobile, Montgomery, Birmingham, Dothan and Huntsville. And we had our first meeting in Montgomery and I agreed to host the next meeting here at the Harbert Center. And so they came for the meeting, I was at Harbert Center and shortly after lunch, we adjourned the meeting and I was headed back to my office in the city car and along comes Don Watkins&#039 ; legal aide in the car and he&#039 ; s driving, he sees my car and he turns around in the middle of the street and I said, &quot ; What&#039 ; s happening here with Joseph and flashed me down.&quot ; And so I said I&#039 ; m just a block from city hall, so I&#039 ; m going on the city hall. So he comes and follows in city hall, and he tells me, he gotten a call from a reporter at the Birmingham News guy still there--John--and John had told him that they had gotten a call from the US Attorney, well they got an anonymous call, says, &quot ; You ought to be judged, what ever the judge&#039 ; s name, courtroom at11:00.&quot ; And this guy told Don&#039 ; s aide about this, so his aide went over there. 11:00 had (inaudible) Brown in there before the jury (inaudible) Brown had signed some sort of document admitting that, of course he had evaded taxes for an x number of years and that he made payments totaling $25,000 to me on two occasions, it was a total of 25 and the jury had questioned him and of course they had laid it out clearly so that the media would pick it up because they had tipped the media off and so it hit the paper and that&#039 ; s how it--you know, I mean it was that kind of thing, they charges really hit me and as soon as they made public, they had done sloppy work because they, in the confession that he had signed--(Talking already in progress) ARRINGTON: Going back since the day I had been in there and of course, we immediately went back and got the logs and checked and there lo and behold the first date they talked about I was in Washington, in fact I was on the front page of the Birmingham News, a fundraiser being held for me at that Democratic headquarters in Washington with ambassadors from some of the small foreign countries sitting around the table and so forth. And of course it wasn&#039 ; t a very popular thing, the newspaper reporter who did it out of the Birmingham news, it was sort of critical the way he did because the Arab American affairs council sponsored it. And they had put the fundraiser together for me ; I was on their executive committee so it came out really slanted, I think there was an influence of the Jewish lobbyist on the whole to be very honest with you about it. But nevertheless, it was no question, I was in Washington that day for a couple of days and it was on the papers. And then the next time, he supposedly made the second payoff to make to total of $25,000, we checked that and lo and behold that was when I had led the delegation to Israel and so of course, we hit back with that real quick and it just got nastier from there and eventually the grand jury, after sitting 18 months and looking at everything I had and subpoenaed everything, everywhere, all over the state, anywhere they could, it really turned out 6 months, they dropped the charges about my receiving money and then they turned on me at taxes. And the charges they eventually tried to get me indicted was tax evasion, it took a five-year period, pointed, said how much they calculated, they did what they call a personal--they look at your assets, you know what you list, so what they-- and I didn&#039 ; t know all of this at the time, what they do is like, if I made a loan from the bank, say five-six years ago, they would get a copy of what I said my personal financial worth was and then you come back later, five, six years later if you had done one again and they look at the difference between and then they would compare it with how much money you&#039 ; d made and what your expensed must have been. And if it didn&#039 ; t sort of balance, they would say you got some money some where, that you haven&#039 ; t reported and that&#039 ; s what they did to me. And the five years, one year, they said I got $20k or more than I had reported, another year $20 something thousand and then they got in the last three years I was getting like 80k, is what they claimed, that&#039 ; s what they actually claimed and that&#039 ; s what they were trying to get me indicted on. And the interesting thing about it was that the numbers they had and the numbers that my CPA had, we had almost identical, it came out almost the same, but their interpretations were different and we eventually prevailed on that, we had to go all the way to Washington with the head laureates in Washington, who had a hearing through their head&#039 ; s connections, they got republicans in office at that time and his former roommate at Yale, had enough influence in him, just to get us a hearing before the director of the IRS to hear both sides and there they determined that they didn&#039 ; t think the FBI had a strong case for taxes on me and that&#039 ; s what they told the US attorney. And so, anyway, the grand jury sat as long as they could sit by law in those 24 mos., and they finally returned no bill against me. There&#039 ; s a whole lot more to that story, but you know, it ended basically well, but it was a bitter fight and it still a scar from that. LEMONTE: Aside from the impact on you personally and family and friends, how did it influence your ability to function as mayor and to campaign as mayor? ARRINGTON: Well, I campaigned and I had to campaign that election, one of things that make some people suspicious of the federal actions is the timing as I said, &quot ; this is-- election is October, this is late August when they indicted me, they don&#039 ; t indicted me but when the US attorney names me as a un-indicted coconspirator, which incidentally I later got the federal court to have it stricken from the records. Because after it was all over, we filed a motion and went before judge Probst and to have my name and all those allegations and my status as an unindicted coconspirator, to get all of that struck from the records. And it was granted, it&#039 ; s a story most people don&#039 ; t know, but it was granted, but of course, it was your public official (inaudible). One public official said,&quot ; We&#039 ; ve been investigated before the grand jury, where do you go to get your reputation back, I mean because people are just suspicious of politicians in the first place.&quot ; I think I suffered from that, what was that question again? LEMONTE: Your ability to govern. ARRINGTON: Well, I just think it created an air of suspicion around, I mean people just don&#039 ; t want an elected official who is, most people think if the FBI is after you, you had to do something wrong, I mean that is just the attitude of most people. And a few people were--I mean I had few friends, I had (inaudible) Parker telling a (inaudible) that he just didn&#039 ; t believe, I know their character and I don&#039 ; t believe it. But I tell you, very few of your friends would say that, they would scratch their heads and wonder you know, you must be (inaudible) so much. I just got strong support from the black community and the election was overwhelming, I mean they gave me a huge vote and so I won again by fairly 58--50 uppers, I guess it was a landslide. I told you it hurt with the white community and then governing I think there was just some suspicion, it took a while before I think people felt comfortable. I think eventually that it sort of faded away, people didn&#039 ; t think about it. It&#039 ; s a great negative I think. LEMONTE: You had talked earlier about the number of occasions where you would personally meet with business leaders and represent the city and make commitments on behalf of the city. During this extent of period of the investigation, was it more difficult for you to function with leaders in the community? ARRINGTON: Well, not really, part of what helped me here was the business community. At Central bank on the Southside in the dining room (inaudible) president or CEO of that bank, was hosting a breakfast that I had with business folks and Dr. Birdie who was heading up the group and pulling the group the together, had informed me that some of the folks were concerned and wanted to hear what I to say about all this federal stuff was going on. This is even before the grand jury informed that I was not a target of the investigation (inaudible) telling me that, they were telling me that it had nothing to do with me that they were just going to city hall looking at corruption at city hall. So I had finally secured my entire package (inaudible) release (inaudible) information that just laid out the path of how long the FBI had been investigating me from the time I came in when they had labeled me as a national security risk and a sympathizer for the black panthers which really had me in the COINTELPRO, under the name of the 1600 black leaders that the FBI director had said had to be undermined and their reputation was destroyed and all of that and all of that racket and all of that came out in a year before congress. I was surprised to find that I was one of those 1600 and didn&#039 ; t know it until I got my freedom of information pack and then I was one when they sent the words out to the field officers that these were dangerous people and you had to do everything you can to undermine them, destroy their ability to lead. I was one of those folk and I learned that--but of course I had got that and then I found out that all--ever since I had been in office, they had investigating me. And there in my file were letters from Frank Donaldson where he on two occasions where he had written and said they had completed the investigation on my name and me was bowtie, they had completed the investigation and that they had found (inaudible) two letters that in the file that I got in my freedom of information package, they didn&#039 ; t even read that--those letters, the letters just came from Frank Donaldson. So I was able to use that, even with the business community, I did a chronology, started when I was in Memphis, of how many times they investigated me, how many phone tap messages, they had 400 and something phone messages, how many photographs they had, of course all of that&#039 ; s in there. They&#039 ; ve been investigating me, just ever since I had been there and I just didn&#039 ; t know it. They investigated me on the track, they thought they had gotten a call once and said that Amerit Pizitz had paid me $900k to get their license for the race track out there, I was one of the members of the racing commission. All of that was in there, they had--it turned out--I had no idea. But they investigated extensively. So one year around the clock with four or six agents, and they claim (inaudible) doing the thing because there was many complaints they were getting, alleging that there was corruption at city hall, even in their freedom of information documents from the justice department, they said that. But I think once you lay it out and people look at it, even folks who are suspicious, they might conclude that this guy done something, but would also have to include these folks have really been going after this guy, I mean all of this period of time. So I printed out and I gave it to the businessmen that morning at the breakfast. Nobody said much about it, I mean I got up and talked about it and gave him or her a copy of it and nobody said much about it. Henry Goodrich made some sort of semi-unfavorable comment about the whole situation about me, but (inaudible) Birdie then asked if some folks--said this whole thing is bad for the community, maybe we ought to send a committee to talk with the feds, the FBI and they did, Jimmy Lee from Buffalo Rock and (inaudible) Birdie and about 3 other people went and they were later assured, I mean when they went, they were assured that no, we&#039 ; re just investigating, this has nothing to do with the mayor, we&#039 ; re investigating what&#039 ; s going on at city hall, of course that all turned out to be false in the end. So the business community, I think just had mixed emotions about it frankly, I felt very sorry for some of the people like Raymond Hubbard, because he had just done a--all of these rumors were flying and he was about to do a fundraiser for me, which was really breaking with, but position his dad had taken, he would never got done anything for me. And Raymond talked with me and he said that he was willing to do this fundraiser and invite all these business people up as a summit. But he said, &quot ; I want to ask you about something.&quot ; And then of course he asked me about these rumors going around and I assured him that there was nothing to it. And then you know explained that it hurt him if it were and he went ahead and did this fundraiser for me and later it comes out that FBI, the grand jury is really at me. Although I had denied at first and the same thing happened with Richard Scrushy, that the day after they made the charges, they made the charges public and brought (inaudible) Brown before the federal judge, two days before Richard Scrushy was having a huge fundraiser for me down at the civic center in which he invited a large crowd and of course he gave me support, got up at the that thing and said he didn&#039 ; t believe anything the feds were doing and criticized it. Of course they got after him, after they came down--the FBI came down and started questioning him, questioning some of his doctors, some of his staff, this is such crazy things, people don&#039 ; t know what happens. It is just wild, it is absolutely wild and I don&#039 ; t know--I guess I&#039 ; m just blessed I didn&#039 ; t end of going to prison, I mean I did go to prison, but that was because I wanted to dramatize the fact that they were trying to get my--. Once they found out we had appointment records for all of those years, they then turned around and subpoenaed those records and I wanted to--I agreed to turn the records over, but I wanted to turn them over the Washington, to the office in Washington and not to the local folks and I just wanted (inaudible) Washington, the local folks wanted to take it and try to reconstruct their story about what I had done. And Washington then said, no, at first I had to turn it over here and when I wouldn&#039 ; t turn them over here, Washington did agreed that, what they would do is send somebody down from Washington office and I would turn them over to Mr. Donaldson and the person from Washington jointly. Well, we accepted that, but (inaudible) we also want Bill Barnett removed from the case and of course Mr. Donaldson who had been instructed by his superiors in Washington, offered agreement about how the records would be turned over, used the fact that we added to it, that we wanted Barnett moved as a way of reporting back to Washington that we rejected the offer, and Donaldson disappeared that day, we couldn&#039 ; t find him. At 3:00, when I&#039 ; m about to go down to 16th Baptist Church, where a bunch of ministers and other supporters are going to dramatize the situation by putting handcuffs on me and chains around my neck and march me down to the courthouse and turning me in at the time I&#039 ; m suppose to support it--at 3:00 we get a call from Washington wanting to know what&#039 ; s going on, Joe Whatley, one of their attorneys and he finds Donald Watkins and they said, no (inaudible) went with this deal. We all totally rejected the deal, well Mr. Donaldson really hadn&#039 ; t been honest with it and then he disappeared, nobody could find him that day and he had sent all his staff home early that day because the demonstration that I was to be turned in, he shut his office down early that day. And when I get that information and then by the time I would get to the courthouse and I turn myself in, Donald Watkins walks in and said, &quot ; Dick you don&#039 ; t have to go to prison.&quot ; You know I just got through talking with the folks in Washington and we gotten all this straight and we agreed on records and they&#039 ; re going to send somebody. Well I couldn&#039 ; t stop there ; I mean the people had marched me to city hall-- LEMONTE: Was this when you were draped in chains? ARRINGTON: Yeah, they had marched me--I was draped, marched me to city hall, turned me over to the feds, I&#039 ; m up somewhere up on 3rd or 4th floor, they put the belly strap around me, had me handcuffed, they were being nice, the federal marshals said they were supposed to put leg cuffs on me, ankle cuffs, but they were not going to do that, but the rest of it, got me sitting there and they&#039 ; re waiting--the crowd is dispersing out there and they&#039 ; re waiting and looking on through the cameras all around the building that looks at everything out there, so they&#039 ; re watching the crowd through the building, watching it disperse and they were waiting for--most of it dispersed before they put me in the van to take me down to Maxwell. And in walks my attorney telling me that I don&#039 ; t have to go. And I just said Donald, I can&#039 ; t do that, I have to go now, I don&#039 ; t want people to go home tonight at 10:00 and they&#039 ; ve gone through all this and then I don&#039 ; t go to prison, so he said alright, so I went on to prison and we worked it out so the next day, David Cromwell Johnson, Donald Watkins, Joe Riley, a bunch of them met with a bunch of federal folks at Maxwell, they brought me in, after I spent a night at Maxwell, and then we signed the deal about how the records would be turned over and later that day they released me from Maxwell. LEMONTE: So there was an element of theater in--? ARRINGTON: Well, you know the whole was kind of dramatized, this is injustice, we got to dramatize it and so when they wanted the records, I said, &quot ; No I&#039 ; m not going to turn my records over to these people.&quot ; So that&#039 ; s when we wrote the letter to the US attorney in Washington and offered the turn the records over to them and it was sort of a whole lot of interesting developments. LEMONTE: Did you ever receive anything that represented an apology from the government for what had been done to you and to your administration? ARRINGTON: No, never, the closest I got to that was that they had a young attorney named Jack Sheldon who came in after Frank Donaldson was forced into retirement by age and Jack Sheldon came in (inaudible) initially took a strong stand in support of the investigators and the federal government and said he wasn&#039 ; t going to sweep anything under the rug. He did begin to listen to our attorneys and what have you. And even the file of issue after--even if we had gone to Washington with the IRS and their opinion wasn&#039 ; t binding on the US attorney they didn&#039 ; t think that there was substantial evidence to back up the charges of tax evasion. But all they could do is say that it was left to the local us attorney to decide whether to go forward and Jack Sheldon frankly had the courage not to and offended a lot of the staff over that worked for him, including, I think Mr. Barnett, who I&#039 ; ve learned from other assistant US attorney, in a meeting had pleaded with Mr. Sheldon, just to let him go ahead and indict me and let the jury decide. And of course that&#039 ; s a ploy because you know if once you&#039 ; re indicted before the jury, it&#039 ; s no telling what will happen. But Jack Sheldon and I had never been able to thank him because one day--because I wasn&#039 ; t suppose to know all this that went down, but it all went down and Jack Sheldon, over the objection of Bill Barnett and some of the other folks, decided that there was not enough evidence to indict me. And of course most people don&#039 ; t know that, they want to say grand jury indicts based on what, in particular for a public official, you have to run into Washington and so forth, and then if they walk in try to get to the federal grand jury to indict you--and Bill Barnett was so upset that (inaudible) indicted, he refused to go back before the grand jury, he sent his assistant over there and dismissed the grand jury. I&#039 ; ve started writing about it all. LEMONTE: You are? ARRINGTON: Oh yeah, I&#039 ; ve started writing, I got the (inaudible) files on FBI stuff and I mean, (inaudible) files, I&#039 ; m going to try to update my records in my writing to see what has happened since that time. But I had all kinds of things, people who have come to me, they had a captain on the Birmingham Police Department, they had spread every (inaudible) they could, really tried to entrap me, I got my file-they had been following me, they listed everywhere I was, they were able to describe it, they apparently had a camera, were talking into and they were describing everybody who went into the place where I went, like if there was a fundraiser at a club and everybody went in there, they described them, they took down the tag numbers of everybody. They followed me for one for full year and I never knew it until I got my freedom of information thing. And there it all was, they had followed me a whole year. I can&#039 ; t remember if it was four or six agents (inaudible) get special training for my investigation and they assigned full-time to me. And I couldn&#039 ; t--it&#039 ; s hard to believe, but it all happened, a number of times came in my office and two of these guys I got to know, I still have the business cards they gave and if (inaudible) name they used. And I had Virginia Williams checking on them, she was my chief of staff, they had come-said they were from Huntsville and that they were in this development company and they kept talking with me about some land the city had that we had bought for a theme park and have a theme park built and they kept wanting to cut some deal with me. (inaudible) If I were implying to try to cut a deal and get something for myself, I would have done it and they left their cards and all. And then we later checked their cards because they had to testify in a case over in Atlanta in another public official corruption case and here these two guys were and of course on the stand they have to give their names and what their fictitious names were. And these were two guys that been to my office talking with me, they had also been in with a group of agents from New Orleans, about six of them came, claiming they wanted to build something on that theme park land and that got to be a real magnet for investigation and I just sort of assumed this because somehow, Bob (inaudible) got involved in it but that gives you some since of what went on. LEMONTE: Let&#039 ; s turn to the topic of the institute, this interview is part of its Oral History Program, but I think everyone connected with the institute would acknowledge that, without your commitment to it, this place would not exist. Could you talk about your involvement with the institute, what it has meant to you, what do you think it means to the community and I guess, along the way, perhaps address some of the controversies that surrounded the institute in opposition that it confronted? ARRINGTON: Well, I&#039 ; m proud of this institute, I think it&#039 ; s a fine facility and I still think it has considerable of potential. It&#039 ; s slowly moving into that direction, I think it&#039 ; s going to be a repository. It&#039 ; s good for people who research certain issues, it&#039 ; s certainly has given us an opportunity to talk from our perspective about Birmingham and what shaped Birmingham and made Birmingham what it slacked. ARRINGTON: Of course you know it&#039 ; s expanded to the fact that we put our human relation struggle in the context of human relation struggles that go on in many, many places in the world ; so which I think it&#039 ; s really unique. So everything from the way it has been programmed and the direction is moving to the fact that we have a really first- rate facility that I think we&#039 ; ve built for about $12,000,000 or $14,000,000. You know I&#039 ; m proud of it and I think people are proud of it, it brings a lot of people here, this is a destination site for many people, from across this country and from many different countries and I&#039 ; m proud of that and I hope that it continues to grow, because I think for academicians and other people whose studying human relations and human behavior and so forth have some aspects of it and we may have some things here that they would find of some interest, quite frankly. So I&#039 ; m pleased about it, it is also slowly getting a national reputation, it&#039 ; s interesting that in recent years, different places people have talked with me. Out of the state where I was, people have talked with me about the institute and how impressed and they went to this institute and it&#039 ; s the greatest thing. So we have to be very proud of it, it is interesting because it also ties into some problems we had with the federal government, quite frankly. It came right out of the effort of this institute, in fact, the lady Ms. Peters, who was convicted for her tax problem, but convicted for taking money from the city, actually the allegation, I never really understood that she had beaten the city out of some $200 and something thousand dollars, it was institute money and I want to get back on, except to say, if she had been hired by the architectural firm, Bond Rider James, that designed this institute for us, as their local person and she was authorized to submit the invoices and she apparently submitted an invoice that they had not authorized as submit. Now they returned the check to me and said that they had not authorized it and they would get that straight, but anyway, it got to be a major issue in that whole federal thing. That whole idea of having an institute was David Vann&#039 ; s idea. It&#039 ; s one of the many things that we&#039 ; ve talked about from time to time. David Vann said that we ought to have a Civil Rights Museum, as we called it then, I think or we referred to it as a museum. It would sort of tell our story and so forth and so on. He talked about it and it sort of caught my imagination too and he said he hoped to do it, but he had never, in his four years, he never made any effort to do anything about it, but he just talked about it, but he certainly sort of planted the seed in my mind and maybe in the minds of some other people, I don&#039 ; t know, but that&#039 ; s why I wanted to go forward with the Civil Rights Institute, because David had talked about what a great advantage it would be. He had sold me on that idea and I will tell, even looking recently as I try to put down some things in a manuscript about my administration looking at the file on the Civil Rights Institute, I was reminded that, this goes back to the early 80s, we began talking about it in the early 80s, we got letters and so forth, so we talked about the institute, in the hiring of our architectural firm and I was looking at the contract we signed with the architectural firm and the first projection that came up was that it was going to cost us $16 million and I was writing them and telling them that they had to redo them, because that plan, before they got to work on the drawing, because we were only going to have about $10 to $12 million dollars and so forth and so on I think we probably ended up spending, I don&#039 ; t remember what it is, but $14 million on this facility, I think--but anyway, we hired Bond Rider James. They did, I think an outstanding job with the design and tying us in with, of course the site was the perfect site and I believe, I don&#039 ; t know whether I&#039 ; m wrong here in giving David credit for suggesting that it ought to be on this site or whether it was some staff person or somebody. But we acquired the site because ; you know the Sixteenth Street Baptist was over there. We acquired with the intent of, of course, building a Civil Rights museum here. The problem was, I think, we got the money from some city funds. We bought this property, I&#039 ; ve decided that we would include funds from construction of the institute in a bond issue. We had $110 million dollar bond issue and including in that $110 million dollars was so many million--it might have fifteen million dollars for the institute. And the entire bond issue was resting in part up on also, five additional mills of property taxes that people would vote on themselves. Well, of course, I was very disappointed because the bond issue failed, I thought I had done my work, especially in going to areas, going to black community leaders, two-fold purposes, number one, I thought they would be especially interested in seeing the institute that told the story about the Civil Rights struggle and secondly I knew that every bond issue that had passed since the mid-60s had passed on the strength of the black voters. The difference here, which they had to put an additional tax on themselves. And of course it failed and I had expected it to pass, quite frankly. Now there was opposition, I can remember hearing Henry Goodrich, the CEO of Sonat coming to the office and telling me that he and some other corporate people had met and they didn&#039 ; t think the idea of an institute was a good one and he brought with him a clipping from the Memphis Appeal, commercial appeal, which he left with me where they had made an announcement that they were going to convert the Lorraine Hotel into a Civil Rights Museum and his argument was that we didn&#039 ; t need another one here and that it was not going to do anything, except perhaps, reopen some old wounds and so forth. So it was some opposition to it and I think it might have pretty widespread, but it&#039 ; s always been that feeling among many people. Many people here would really like to forget that part of our history and not remind people of it and they think that when we do that, it&#039 ; s very negative for us. Although I have to say that the last time there was the anniversary period for the Sixteenth Street church bombing, our local media gave it wide, wide exposure in playing the whole history of it, so I was pleased to see that because it says at least you know some of the attitudes about how to handle these things are really, really changing. But anyway, I was visible upset that it had failed and some of my supporters in the black community came to see me because they knew I was upset and they were feeling sorry for me. And so they felt they didn&#039 ; t work hard enough and they really didn&#039 ; t understand how important it was and they said to me what they wanted me to do was run that bond issue again. So I believed them and I ran it again and it was defeated again. And so I, being determined to see it go forward, I had the staff to begin looking for other sources of money that we might use for the institute. And we came up with the idea of selling a building that houses the social security payment center for the southeast US, in which had been built by the public building authority and was eventually to become the property at--they owed a debt or something--it was paid off of the developer out of Memphis, but, a long story short, what I did was move earlier and sold the building to him. And we got some of our money to start the part growing for the construction of the institute from that. And then we looked around other areas, we had some past bond issues where some money was left here and there and it was money that could be used--it wasn&#039 ; t designated specifically for the institute, but it was broadly enough designated that we could use it and so we just found a way to finance it, to get it going and we built it. And we had, once it was built, we had a minority firm partnership between Mr. Harbert&#039 ; s firm, it&#039 ; s interesting that John Harbert would built a Civil Rights institute, (inaudible) the builder (inaudible) Russell, those two firms, joint ventured in building this facility. You know once we got it going, I think people sort of accepted it. I&#039 ; m not sure how many people in Birmingham, who ever really visited the institute. I think enough people from outside of the city come. I haven&#039 ; t talked with the staff yet about how much local participation there is, in terms of visitors here, although it&#039 ; s often times it&#039 ; s like for receptions and things of that sort. The corporate community eventually decided that it was something they should support and they did a special fundraiser for it, I think it&#039 ; s for the endowment audit or something of that sort, but they did a special fundraiser for the institute. It&#039 ; s a very fine facility, it&#039 ; s one that I think we can be proud of, it&#039 ; s a fine institution here in the city and I&#039 ; m pleased, I was just looking the other day, was pleased that we had the foresight to eventually acquire the entire blocks we got one block for the institute, we can do some things with it. (Inaudible) interesting people, I want to do other things, I know the former pastor of 16th St Baptist church wanted to joint venture with us on the expansion of their church in facility that didn&#039 ; t work out, but the point is, is that it is a fine institution and (inaudible) it as city and it extends outside of the institute into the park of what we call revolution and reconciliation theme, that theme there, it&#039 ; s an extension on what we--that thing that we carry in this institute. I&#039 ; m pleased about it and I think as time goes by, more and more people will be pleased. LEMONTE: But the Marjorie Peters involvement that clouded the institute proved (inaudible) timeless really do to her relationship with the architect, it was not any appointment that you had made and it didn&#039 ; t involve her working with the city? ARRINGTON: Right, Marjorie Peters had no contract with the city, in fact, in all the times she&#039 ; s out, she may have gotten one contract, but when it came out in the media, of course it appeared that she was charged with defrauding the city of money. Actually the city never lost a cent in there and I said that to Mr. Donaldson. We even got the state attorney general in and asked him if he would join the case. Well Mr. Donaldson objected to that and said that he was going to recover our money, because we had an (inaudible) what I--in layman&#039 ; s term called a lock and key kind of job. They wanted to design to institute--his plans which were acceptable to us and to see do as an architect, (inaudible) see if it&#039 ; s completed, they did all of that and we were to pay them a certain amount of money and did that. We paid--all of our money was paid to them, now they had--with their employees, local employees with Ms. Peters, they did have, I know one flare up between Ms. Peters and that firm and also (inaudible) Brown, who was also associated with her at that time, but as far as I know, nobody lost any money and Ms. Peters had like contracts that they had with the airport authority and the newspaper played them out as if they were contractor that administration had given. And even when Mr. McMahon, local CEO of the airport was concerned enough that he went to the editorial staff of the newspaper and explained that those were not contracts I had given out, those were contracts she had gotten from the airport authority, they never really ever made the distinction. They continued to call them city of Birmingham contracts and I really discussed this with Virginia Williams, who was chief of staff one time. And I really don&#039 ; t believe we ever gave Marjorie Peters any contract-- LEMONTE: Through the city? ARRINGTON: Through the city, she got in on a city contract, that Cecil Jones, we had given Cecil Jones and Cecil Jones used, for part of his minority participation on the program project, it had something to do with race track road and so forth out there. He used Marjorie Peters and (inaudible) Brown. But even then that was a problem, because Cecil Jones came to me and said that (inaudible) Brown had over billed him and that sense that would have been over billing the city for about $200,000 and wanting to know what to do and I said, &quot ; You got to get the money back.&quot ; And he did that and I guess it didn&#039 ; t make (inaudible) very happy, but we recovered all the money, but I told Cecil it was his responsibility that we had to recover the money if he in fact could document that they had been over billed for the time and so forth. So it was interesting, I think people interpreted information, data and things in different ways. I guess there had been a lot of rumors going ; something&#039 ; s must be going on at city hall. I really thing some people probably failed on the outside and people associated with the associated general contractors in groups like that ABC and groups I was really fighting against. I think maybe a few of them began to get suspicious that this guy didn&#039 ; t really have a commitment to minority participation, he doesn&#039 ; t think that this is an important part of the city&#039 ; s program, it ought to be a city&#039 ; s commitment. He&#039 ; s gotta be getting something out of this himself, I mean, that&#039 ; s what I think. I believe that&#039 ; s how the rumor started going and when I look at the freedom of information package and they--what they say several places in there is how many complaints they have received at the Birmingham FBI office by allegations of corruption of city hall. I began to think, it just had to be--it&#039 ; s a rumor mill going, I mean, frankly, I think that. And so people began to interpret whatever information they got in light of what the rumor mill was and these investigators who trained to snoop stuff out and be suspicious of folk anyway, and they&#039 ; ve been getting all these complaints and in my freedom of information packet, there are all these negative news clippings, they clip everything from news--they started an investigation based on the stories they read in the newspaper and all these negative things in there and I think the stage engine has been set for them, eventually coming at us on something, unfortunately it ended up being on this and involving the institute. LEMONTE: We have covered a lot of specific topics, are there any specific things that you would want to add to what we&#039 ; ve talked about because I&#039 ; d like to conclude with some general reflections about the role of mayor and your personal inventory of special successes and disappointments in what you think the city confronts is major challenges in the future. But I want to make sure there isn&#039 ; t a topic that you would like to have included in the interview that we haven&#039 ; t touched on? ARRINGTON: Well, no topic cross my mind, I think we have been fairly exhausted, at least in terms of topics we touched on. So I don&#039 ; t have any--. LEMONTE: As you look back over your entire lengthy career as an elected official and public servant, what do you rank as the really rewarding successes from your point of view and what have been the areas of greatest personal disappointment for you? ARRINGTON: Well, the success of the city and remaining economically viable achievement and guiding the city through a period of time in which there was a transformation or a transition in its economy. The matter of creating jobs, economic development, all of which I think are essential to a city. When I think about he fact that in 1979, when my administration took office, we were in the economic boardrooms and people were out of work and the unemployment rate was 20-something percent, still the industry was going down the drain here and elsewhere, the steel mills were closing and all of that, and where we&#039 ; ve come from. From that to--the city was not financially strong, didn&#039 ; t have money and so forth and where we&#039 ; ve come from, from that time. In 20 years, we&#039 ; ve come a city that--from at certain times was known and still is, I&#039 ; ve seen recently, as one of the million-sized city where there are good job opportunities and one of the top ten at one time, hotspot cities, according to the national magazine, where there was significantly economic development going on. The whole economic transition, to be able to be leave office in &#039 ; 99 saying that the city of Birmingham has a largest number of jobs, in its corporate boundaries than it has ever had in its entire, any other time it&#039 ; s entire history. It&#039 ; s something that I&#039 ; ve considered to be a real accomplishment, now many, of course obviously, sharing the credit for that, but I&#039 ; m just--we did some things too, we provided incentives and we tried to be a catalyst for certain things and we tried to sort of keep the faith and confidence and always say to folk that we believe that we could do this and we approached a lot of CEOs who were thinking about moving, some of them are did and we offered incentives to stay here and we had some successes. And so we, despite the problems with suburban migration and all of that, we built an economy, we built a strong financial base for the city, that&#039 ; s something I&#039 ; m very proud of. I could say a lot more about it, the second thing that I see as an accomplishment is that we became, in my opinion, an inclusive government during our administration. And perhaps a mall for the state in that regard as I have said earlier, as it relates to race and gender. And that&#039 ; s very significant to me because this was a city that was known for its racial discrimination and as far as exclusion of people and did not permit people to compete even on an equal basis for jobs, really shut the door on people, particularly black people and really limited women to, the achievement of women might make job promotions, we changed a lot of that. And leave office and be able to say that we come from a city with 12% of its labor force, black and most of those blacks, the most menial jobs in the city to one that about half of its employees are black many of those blacks have supervisory responsibilities. And that we have increased the promotional women and upgrading the women, we had a number of 27-33%, but some of it, I&#039 ; m really proud of, I think that&#039 ; s an accomplishment and you measured those accomplishments by where you started from and what you had to overcome in doing it and we had a lot of tough battles and it dealt with some things that were very, very emotional, thing that people had deep feelings about. Just the idea, we got blacks in supervisory positions, nobody thinks about that today. But that was a no-no in Birmingham for blacks to supervise whites, in fact I told the story of Sadie McCarter, who was the director of our emergency management program, civil defense program and the story she told me about her neighbor, who was very curious that she worked for a man who was black and Ellen Cole tells a similar story that tells about an elderly white neighbor she had who came out to her and said that, you know what is like to work for black man and I just mentioned that because people don&#039 ; t know how deeply rooted human behavior, some actions and thoughts are and what has been the customs and so forth in an area. And Birmingham was originally segregated place where people clung tenaciously to these concepts of class, race, differences and things of inferiority and where your place is. And we were able to build a labor force that we tell other folks to look and generally speaking, as far as governmental labor forces go, I think we have a good one, quite frankly, I mean you know, you got the government bureaucracy and all, but you can&#039 ; t get around that. But we brought some quality people into city government. So I&#039 ; m very proud of that, I could talk a lot more about it, but we&#039 ; ll just close that point out. Sadie McCarter had a neighbor where she lived, they would inquire ; they were inquisitive about what it was like working for a black mayor. She said to me, I always tell them, I&#039 ; m proud of you and I think you&#039 ; re doing an outstanding job and I hope you don&#039 ; t, but you just have to understand that we grew up and our parents used to say to us, when we were negligent or we didn&#039 ; t do our work well, or if we didn&#039 ; t do our studies, or we didn&#039 ; t want to do our book, they used to say, alright, one day you&#039 ; re gonna have a nigger for your boss. And she said, &quot ; We grew up thinking, that was the worst thing that could ever happen to a white person, that a black person would be bossing them as a supervisor.&quot ; And she says, &quot ; Even today, there are still many whites that have never worked in a position where there were black supervisors.&quot ; So they asked about it and she says, &quot ; I just wanted you to know, I tell them how proud I am to work for you.&quot ; But included in all that, if you unravel it, it&#039 ; s again, the way people honestly believe what they thought--and I think really we&#039 ; ve changed things more than we know. So I&#039 ; m very, very proud of that. Those two certainly topped my list of accomplishments I think we made some other accomplishments ; I&#039 ; m always reluctant to talk about crimes. Crimes here have just been going up, up, up during my time, crime went down, but I can never explain the reasons for what happened to the crime. I don&#039 ; t if sociologist--who can explain it. It&#039 ; s just something I think politicians can use to boast about when you get it down and my last few years were good years, in terms of what was happening, crime, the direction it was going. But those first two were certainly accomplishment. I still think what happened, the failure to provide some significant leadership for public schools, it&#039 ; s probably the biggest negative I had. You know I can go in there and pick out projects that I thought were key projects that were going to push this city into a higher orbit and make it competitive, that failed. It started with like block 60 and maps and those were big disappointments, because they were intended to be major economic catalysts for the city and to move this city up in towards the forefront of the pack of cities of so- called large cities in the states, in the southeast, that we did our best, but we didn&#039 ; t pull it off and it&#039 ; s some disappointment about that. LEMONTE: And what would define as the list of issues that the city confronts now and in the near future, that are going to be the make-or-break issues for our community? ARRINGTON: Well, I still think the whole issue of developing some kind of regional cooperation. And it starts with just trying to develop something even in this county, intergovernmental cooperation, on a serious level. I&#039 ; m not talking about just a joint (inaudible) but I&#039 ; m talking about some serious economic development efforts. I still think it&#039 ; s a big challenge, we&#039 ; ve been very fortunate, and we&#039 ; ve gone through some tough economic times to what have been some good ones. And the city has grown with it, I mean the economy has been good ; we&#039 ; ve been doing good. And even sometimes when the national economy wasn&#039 ; t doing well, we continued to do well. We have generated jobs and so forth in this city, we still provide many new jobs for this metro area. People who don&#039 ; t live in the city, but they work here and they come and they make their living here and that is due at least in part to the fact that governments here and city governments have really--well there&#039 ; s been no other government including the county has taken the initiative that the city of Birmingham has taken to try to carry out economic involvement and to try to create jobs in this area. So when we&#039 ; ve been able to do things like the success of the park out on 79 Delmonte and Ogihara and all those are, I get great satisfaction, I know how hard we work. We competed with several other states and places for Ogihara, which is a supplier for Mercedes body parts and we got Ogihara here and it&#039 ; s expanding and it&#039 ; s got a bright future, it&#039 ; s going to create a lot of job for us still down the road. So the challenge is to try to maintain the economic development, that&#039 ; s just one saving grace we&#039 ; ve had, is that even with the negative impacts of the suburban growth on us, we&#039 ; ve been able to generate the jobs here, be economically sound to keep taxpayers in place, that is still an ongoing challenge, you got to have economic development because that is the very foundation upon which the whole quality of life will rest. That&#039 ; s something we have to do and we have to be very vigilant about doing it because we are a city that&#039 ; s still in some sort of change here and we&#039 ; re trying to redefine the character of this city, we have got to do something about--of course we got to do something about education, public education and find ways to have our schools, public school system, to maybe joint venture, try things like what we talked--charter schools or things like that. We got to find ways to improve education for kids, we got to find a way to challenge kids in Birmingham school system and to help them to redefine expectations because I think part of the problem is that nothing is expected a lot of the kids and they give you what you expect. When you tighten it up and say you got to do this and more of them would do it. So we got a long way to go to accomplish that. Housing is another thing that we really must give some attention within the city. We had a time during my 20-year stint in administration where we were doing good in housing frankly, particularly low to moderate income housing, single family housing, we did some other family housing, but as the national policies changed and Mr. Reagan came into office and programmed funds dried up, few years after that, our pace of housing redevelopment, construction housing, renovation in this city has slowed considerably too. And so the city suffers a day from disproportionate amount of substandard housing and vacant lots, we&#039 ; ve torn down houses, so housing stock is a real challenge for the city today, to begin to improve housing stock. It&#039 ; s interesting that our economic growth has helped people, especially folks who had been at the lower end of the totem pole, those who had some skills and so to help some of them move out, but we have not been able to provide the housing and the kind of schools they want and so we lose a lot of them too to suburbs and so forth, to be viable we have to get a good housing program and we got to get a good system for education. Some of that&#039 ; s a long road back, education thing is the longest road, but we just must do it. LEMONTE: You know what it&#039 ; s like to be mayor better than anyone else, final question, would you reflect on the office of mayor, what is its importance in the city, in the metro area, what are the main responsibilities of the mayor as you think back over your time and what would you say are the characteristics that people might look for in the future for someone who could provide the leadership that&#039 ; s needed? ARRINGTON: A mayor is a leader, the quality of a mayor&#039 ; s leadership differs from the other mayor, but that mayor is the leader. First of all, in a city like Birmingham and any other place, medium size and some smaller ones, the mayor&#039 ; s leader in all of them, but some places it&#039 ; s only full-time elected official like the city of Birmingham, he is a full-time mayor, he is the chief executive of the city. He actually sort of sets the agenda for the city, he has to be the negotiator, he has to be the person who can knit together networks and cooperation of corporate communities, he&#039 ; s got to work so that the corporate community develops enough confidence in his leadership that they are willing to share some of the risk with him and to give him or her, what ever the case may be, some assistance in helping to define goals and actually often putting their resources behind goals. The mayor has to be a mediator on a number of things, there are many cities there are always issues to me yet, the more diverse your population is also the more people problems there going to be. For mayors&#039 ; respected, that mayor can be a good mediator if people trust that mayor. Some do it better than others, that&#039 ; s just the way it is, but that is the role of a mayor. There is a significant burden of leadership on the shoulder of the person who is mayor. First you got to have some vision by what this city ought to be, you must be real about where it is, whatever city it is. And take your city and you gotta have some dreams about where it ought to go, and some idea about how you might try to move it that way and how do you get people to follow and how do you get at least enough success, minimal success that people are willing follow and believe things are going to happen. And that caused for putting a lot of things together and knowing a lot of people and people getting to know you at least well enough to believe that this person knows what he&#039 ; s done, he&#039 ; s got some sense of how things ought to go and he&#039 ; s worth working with. It is just really a good job particularly cities in America like Birmingham, cities with large minority populations and so forth, you really need a proactive mayor and in a lot of areas. You must be proactive with your economic development program and things like that, but you must be proactive with human relations kind of things to, you gotta be able to step in and head off things that could deteriorate and some of the negatives. And we had some of the experience ; I think we were most successful than sometimes we knew, when I look back at some of the hot issues we had to deal with. Some of the thing that some people think you ought to be criticized for and they criticize you for it, sometimes some of the issues that help keep the lid on things. I mean I had to stay on the tight rope of, I needed the corporate community, I had to have a significant segment of it. The same time I needed that, what people called it civil rights, part of the black community, because we got a strong contingent of that there and potentially there&#039 ; s always conflict between the two. And in a situation like that, the mayor&#039 ; s got to have support in both, you gotta have enough credibility so that you could deal with both and one of the things I&#039 ; ve tried to do as mayor was to be credible with the Abraham Woods&#039 ; and the others and that they believed in what I said and you know I could, by staying in touch with them I could sometime guide where they were going or what they wanted to do. And at the same time, I had to have a corporate community that was willing to work with me to try to make some things opportunities available are better for people and who understood that I had to work with other people in communities, I think you have to all of those things. It&#039 ; s truly a challenging job, but it&#039 ; s an exciting job and I&#039 ; m the one who was easily excited about things. But when we accomplish things I got great, great satisfaction from it. That&#039 ; s what kept me going and people could never tell that by looking at my face, because I&#039 ; ve got that kind of sour face, but inside when we accomplished things, I mean I really felt great about them and it sort of fired me up and it kept me going to the next things. And I think that what good mayors have to do. I&#039 ; ve tried to look at some of the good mayors in this country and got to know a few of them, not all of them, but in 20 years, I got to know some good mayors. And I look at the Joe Rileys and folks like that and watch what they do and not only their ability to plan, but also how they worked with people and the confidence that folks have in them and folks see them as their mayor and you know, it&#039 ; s that kind of thing. It&#039 ; s that gift of leadership that really outstanding mayors have. I didn&#039 ; t come in with a lot of flare, but I came with really a strong desire, once I was there to do things that were positive and the willingness to work hard and I tried to make up for what ever shortcomings I had and you know the flare and all this, just-mayor has to do everything. You got to speak all the time. (Inaudible) but I got to speak everyday, you know it&#039 ; s an interesting job, but I tell you when I sit and think about it, when I&#039 ; m trying to write and I start thinking about it and it slowly comes together in my mind, it&#039 ; s amazing what happens. LEMONTE: So you&#039 ; re glad you did it? ARRINGTON: I&#039 ; m glad I did it, I&#039 ; m glad I&#039 ; m out of it though (both laugh) LEMONTE: Well thank you very much for your generous commitment of time to this interview. ARRINGTON: Thank you very much, it&#039 ; s always a joy talking with you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RArringtonJr2001b.xml RArringtonJr2001b.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dr. Richard Arrington Jr. (2001) (2 of 2) Description An account of the resource Dr. Richard Arrington Jr. discusses the latter part of his career as Mayor of Birmingham including the annexation of additional area, being the subject of an FBI investigation and the creation of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 20010724A Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham MAPS: Metropolitan Area Projects Strategy Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2001-07-24 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/bcacf10ff8982654e0737af9def034ad.jpg e7814800f653b1ac08d642830caf357d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Eileen Kelley Walbert OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=EKWalbert1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Segregation in education OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 February 3, 1995 Eileen Kelley Walbert Interviewed on February 3, 1995 19950203W 0:59:08 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Raines Whittaker Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Police brutality--United States Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Segregation in education Eileen Kelley Walbert Horace Huntley Video 1:|15(4)|32(6)|61(1)|72(9)|86(3)|104(9)|115(1)|127(2)|140(8)|155(12)|167(7)|177(6)|193(6)|208(1)|222(6)|232(12)|247(1)|261(14)|276(8)|290(2)|297(15)|311(1)|328(5)|340(5)|347(14)|366(10)|385(12)|394(12)|404(7)|418(6)|430(4)|440(1)|449(14)|464(7)|479(8)|491(1)|502(3)|510(8)|520(1)|535(1)|544(8)|554(12)|564(1)|573(13)|587(9)|596(7)|606(2)|614(14)|626(14)|639(10)|647(1)|660(4)|670(14)|678(14)|685(7)|700(1)|710(7) 0 https://youtu.be/l0atZ6XSxSU YouTube video English 64 Beginning of Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Eileen Kelley Walbert from the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project done by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College, February 3, 1995. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute http://www.bcri.org BCRI website 115 Personal Background First, of all, I just want to get a little information, a little personal information, about yourself. She is from Virginia and moved to Birmingham as an adult. Episcopal Church Southern States--History ; Women--Southern States 37.032568, -76.465299 11 Hilton Village, VA 229 Moving from New York City to Birmingham What was the transition like moving from New York City to Birmingham, Alabama? Moving to Alabama was shocking because of the overt segregation and racism. African Americans--Segregation ; Alabama--History ; Segregation in education--United States 331 Family Background Let me just back up just a bit and ask a bit about your family--your mother and father. Her parents are from the North but met in the Philippines, where her mother also learned about discrimination. Discrimination ; Military bases, American--Philippines ; Military occupation ; New Englanders 500 Coming to Birmingham What brought you to Birmingham? Her and her husband moved to Birmingham for her husband's work as a piano teacher. Piano teachers African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Homewood (Ala.) ; Voting--United States 640 Inter-Racial Organizing Do you have any memories of relationships that developed between yourself and others who were attempting to develop inter-racial dialogue in Birmingham? Although isolated as a white person, she participated in organizing with the Black community. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Civil rights workers ; Police brutality--United States ; Racism--United States--History 954 Atmosphere when Organizing What was the atmosphere in the meetings when you knew that this individual was there? The environment of organizing was one of intimation, especially from the Ku Klux Klan. University of Alabama at Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights workers ; Racism--United States--History 1159 Connection to Fred Shuttlesworth They’re close, adjacent to each other. She knew Fred Shuttlesworth through the school that her daughter attended. Southern Christian Leadership Conference African Americans--Segregation ; Civil rights movement ; Racism in education--United States ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 https://www.bhamwiki.com/w/Fred_Shuttlesworth Information on Fred Shuttlesworth 1390 Only White Parent in School Support Were you the only White parent there? She found herself to be the only white parent at council meetings in support of African American civil rights. Civil rights workers ; Race relations in the United States 1470 Reverberations of the Civil Rights Movement in the White Community In 1960 and ‘61 we had the sit-ins and the Freedom Rides. She attended meetings for school desegregation in the face of other white people's opposition. Miscegenation Civil rights movement ; Racism--United States ; Segregation in education--United States ; Southern States--Race relations 1712 Working toward School Desegregation You were going to discuss integration of the schools? She worked for school desegregation after witnessing the unequal conditions for Black children. Miles College African American schools ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; School integration--United States ; Segregation in education https://www.bhamwiki.com/w/Miles_College Information on Miles College 1947 Reactions of the White Community to Civil Rights Participation What was the reaction of White communities to the demonstrations that started to take place here in April and May of 1963? She and her husband encountered resentment and intimation for supporting civil rights causes. Miles College African Americans--Civil rights ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Civil rights movement ; Southern States--Race relations 2356 Personal Relations within the Civil Rights Movement How did you feel as a White person attempting to make changes in Birmingham? She was one of the few white people active and met many important civil rights figures. Alabama Council on Human Relations ; Williams, Hosea, 1926- Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Civil rights movement ; Civil rights workers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosea_Williams Information on Hosea Williams 2737 White March of Support in Selma So, then, did you actually march? She participated in a solidarity march in Selma that was well received by the Black community. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Civil rights movement ; Selma (Ala.) 3003 Lack of White Church Involvement What church were you a member of at that time? The church she attended gave no support to the civil rights movement. Civil rights movement ; Episcopal Church ; Race relations--Religious aspects 3067 Impact of the Birmingham Movement How would you evaluate the Birmingham movement, its successes and failures? She found involvement to be transformative but wished the ideals could have been further maintained. Vietnam War, 1961-1975 African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Civil rights movement ; Race relations in the United States 3236 Hypothetical Advising to Those Involved in the Movement If you could turn the clock back and you found yourself as chief advisor to Dr. King, Rev. Shuttlesworth or the White business community ... If given the chance to advise the big civil rights leaders, she would support all their efforts and only want to see more for supporting children. African Americans--Education ; Equality--United States ; Poor children--Education--United States ; Race relations--Economic aspects 3388 Future Visions Finally, let me just ask you if there is anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with that relates to race relations in Birmingham ... She wishes to see greater integration of communities to better support children's futures. Community and neighborhood structure ; Race relations in the United States ; Segregation--United States ; Social integration--United States Oral History Eileen Kelley Walbert discusses getting involved in the movement after moving to Birmingham as a young adult. She participated in Movement activities, usually as the only white person. She marched in an act of white solidarity in Selma, Alabama. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Eileen Kelley Walbert from the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project done by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College, February 3, 1995. Thank you, Mrs. Walbert, for coming out and sitting with us this morning. As you know, what we are doing is simply attempting to sort of get a personality of individual people who were associated with the movement, or associated with Birmingham evolving from what we termed &quot ; Bombingham&quot ; to Birmingham, finally, and I want to thank you for taking your time out this morning to come and sit and talk with us. WALBERT: I&#039 ; m honored. HUNTLEY: First, of all, I just want to get a little information, a little personal information, about yourself. You are not a native Alabamian. Tell me a little about your background. WALBERT: Well I was born in a little village in Virginia. I was the first child baptized into the Episcopal church there that my grandfather founded, and I met my husband during the second World War, and we spent a few years after that in New York and then we came to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: You were born in Virginia. What part of Virginia? WALBERT: It was a little village called Hilton Village about three miles from Newport News, which was an embarkation center. HUNTLEY: Is that where you went to school? WALBERT: Yes, that&#039 ; s where I went to school. HUNTLEY: You finished high school there? WALBERT: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you go on to college? WALBERT: No, I did not. I went back for a postgraduate course in stenography. HUNTLEY: Then you moved to New York from Virginia? WALBERT: Yes, when my husband had got out of the army we were in New York for a short time. HUNTLEY: How did you like New York? WALBERT: Oh, I loved New York. We would have like to have stayed there but it was very difficult at that time. HUNTLEY: Then, did you move from New York to Birmingham? WALBERT: Yes. HUNTLEY: When did you come to Birmingham? WALBERT: 1946. HUNTLEY: What was the transition like moving from New York City to Birmingham, Alabama? WALBERT: Oh, it was like, I&#039 ; ve said this before, like moving to Nazi Germany because the second World War was just over and we hadn&#039 ; t recovered from the horrors from that, you know, and to come here and although there were no swastikas on most of the population, half of the population, their skin color served the same purpose for discrimination and oppression. The signs, &#039 ; Colored&#039 ; and &#039 ; White&#039 ; were just so revolting, so ... HUNTLEY: Was this the first time that you had been in the Deep South? WALBERT: No, I grew up in Virginia and how I escaped all of this, I mean-- Virginia was the last integrated school, so it wasn&#039 ; t that good for African Americans. But, I just wasn&#039 ; t so aware of it. You know, I didn&#039 ; t even know there was such a thing as social studies and certainly we heard nothing in our history classes about the oppression of so many of our people. HUNTLEY: So, this was your first encounter then with this kind of situation? WALBERT: Yes, yes, yes. It was a shock to go back years later and find that many of the people, or some of the people I grew up with shared those same prejudiced views. HUNTLEY: Let me just back up just a bit and ask a bit about your family--your mother and father. Can you tell us a little about them? WALBERT: Well, they were Yankees. My mother grew up in New England and my father in New York. My father got carried away with Teddy Roosevelt&#039 ; s Rough Riders and he was, I&#039 ; m told by the members of his family, pulling a train to go to Notre Dame where his two older brothers had gone to school, and he got off in Florida. They were living in New Mexico at the time and joined the army and went to the Philippine Islands where he stayed for 17 years. During that time, he met my mother, who went there from New England as a missionary nurse and met my father and she was there for ten years. My three older sisters were born there. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? WALBERT: I have four older sisters. All are deceased now. HUNTLEY: Your brother, was he older or younger? WALBERT: I don&#039 ; t have a brother. I&#039 ; m sorry I didn&#039 ; t make that clear. HUNTLEY: Okay. So, you then...were any of your sisters born in the Philippines? WALBERT: The three older sisters. HUNTLEY: Have you had the opportunity to live in the Philippines? WALBERT: No, I haven&#039 ; t. I really enjoyed Carlos Romero&#039 ; s book. He was the first president of the Philippines and, in fact, I sent it to my father some years later. But, my mother implanted in my brain I guess the idea that discrimination existed, because before she met my father and was working in a hospital in Manilla she invited a young Filipino man to accompany her to a dance or party or some affair there and was told never to do that again. That they must not...what is the word-- &#039 ; associate&#039 ; with the natives. There&#039 ; s another term for that that escapes me right now... &#039 ; Fraternize&#039 ; with the natives. That&#039 ; s the word. And when she told me about it, she used that expression with enough hate for me to realize that was not the proper thing. Though I was very young at the time, apparently it sank in. HUNTLEY: What brought you to Birmingham? WALBERT: Well, my husband is a musician, pianist. [He] teaches piano and the family business was a gospel publishing business in Tennessee where he grew up and they had contacts here that enabled him to have a number of students already signed up to study with him. Of course, we had to have some income, so that&#039 ; s what brought us here. HUNTLEY: And you said upon the arrival in Birmingham the atmosphere... WALBERT: Well the first thing one sees are those signs, &#039 ; Colored&#039 ; &#039 ; White&#039 ; at the train station, the bus stations, over the fountains in all of the department stores and it was quite blatant. HUNTLEY: What part of Birmingham did you live? WALBERT: When we first came, we had a half a house in Inglenook and then through a mutual acquaintance we had an apartment in Mountain Brook and then we moved to Homewood. When we moved to Homewood, we didn&#039 ; t know we were moving out of Birmingham because, you know, all the little neighborhood communities used that title. And, at one point, when there was an election about joining Birmingham I was at the polls all day, that day. Although we won immediately, there was another election and it was voted against. HUNTLEY: So, you, then, would not get the opportunity then to vote... WALBERT: Not in Birmingham. And, my reason for wanting to be at the polls that day, my reasons for wanting to be annexed into Birmingham was in order to have a vote against Bull Conner. It was quite a motivation. HUNTLEY: So, you never got the opportunity to vote against Bull Conner as a result of you not living in Birmingham? WALBERT: No. HUNTLEY: Do you have any memories of relationships that developed between yourself and others who were attempting to develop inter-racial dialogue in Birmingham? WALBERT: I felt very lonely in my neighborhood most of the time. I did have a few people through the connection with this musical friend who we attended events at his house and met a couple of reporters, so that was very heartening. And then..., but it wasn&#039 ; t until I guess in the [19]50s that I met Dr. and Anny--Dr. Frederick and Anny Kraus--who told me about the Birmingham Council on Human Relations. It was at that time I began to attend those meetings and to meet people who were involved in trying to change things. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me a little about the operation of that organization? WALBERT: Well, we met once a month and the speaker very often..., The speakers were trying to get us to do something, you know, really constructive and overt, I guess I should say, at every meeting. There were so many atrocities being committed in this town, so many young African American men who were being knifed in the back...in the back, because they were resisting arrest, you know. I mean shot in the back, because they had a knife and were resisting arrest. And, uh, there were so many other horrendous things going on. Usually, at the meeting, the victim, or if he was deceased, a member of the family would be there in person to tell about it and .... HUNTLEY: There were some rather trying times. Well, in that kind of setting, obviously we are talking about some people that turned Birmingham into being a police state and the Black community being under siege. The kinds of things that the Black community had to endure as far as the police were concerned... WALBERT: Yes. HUNTLEY: Some suggested that the police department was very closely tied with the Ku Klux Klan. WALBERT: Oh yes. HUNTLEY: How would you react to that? WALBERT: Of course. I mean, there were so many incidents of that where.... One night, well I don&#039 ; t know if the Klan had anything to do with this, but I remember when the Reverend Herbert Oliver, who was president of our council for a time, in fact, just before the marches in Selma, was taken from his house, in the middle of the night, in his underwear by the police because he had the audacity to go up before the library board and ask for permission for Black people to come to the library. HUNTLEY: And he was taken out by the police? WALBERT: Yeah. HUNTLEY: This is the kind of incident, of course, that would lead people to obviously associate the police and the Klan in the same... WALBERT: Well, the Klan came to our meetings. And, also, Jamie Moore, the police chief, Jamie Moore had a representative at everything that was integrated. He would saddle up to any newcomer who came and get their name and address. You know, we knew this was going on but before we could get to them and say, &#039 ; Don&#039 ; t talk to him unless you want your picture in the Birmingham Independent--.&#039 ; But he...he did...and in the marches, you know, he would be pointing out, he would be there with the police and several police pointing out various ones and giving their names and they were invariably printed in this paper and the caption, though they didn&#039 ; t come right out and say he or she is a communist..., well maybe they did, but the way it was...you know... [they would say] we were supporting the Communists and that sort of thing to make us look like very disreputable, undemocratic people. HUNTLEY: What was the atmosphere in the meetings when you knew that this individual was there? WALBERT: Oh, he was very friendly, you know. We weren&#039 ; t intimidated by him but the Klan would follow us home and one night we came out of the meeting and the Kraus&#039 ; and I, I forget who we were talking to, maybe the Reverend Harold Long, who was there then. We were the last to leave and as we started to come of the driveway, which went up, there was a car with the Klan, a couple of men in it and the lights were on bright, you know, shining down on our faces and so, when the Kraus&#039 ; ....and Dr. Roger Hanson was there that night. So, we went and told them what was going on and they came out and we left and went around the other way and I was so impressed with Roger and Frederick. Frederick was driving the car and he circled around the block and by that time the Klan car had pulled out and parked on the ... just backed out the driveway and parked. So, he went up behind them and made a big to do of taking their license number, you know, and when we went by very slowly, and they were glaring at them, you know, so Anny and I did the same thing. And, then, he just snaked through the neighborhood--Frederick did--on the way out to be sure they were really following us, which they were. They followed us into the University grounds and then they just sort of waved when they turned off. And, it turned out they were guards at the University. HUNTLEY: Is that right? WALBERT: But this happened. They followed people home oftentimes. I remember one person just drove into the police station and they followed her to the police station. She was--Alice Kidd was her name. She&#039 ; s deceased now, but she was not deterred by...intimidated by anybody. HUNTLEY: So, she just drove ... WALBERT: Right. They, you know, backed off, drove off. HUNTLEY: Were any of the members ever harassed, I mean, physically beaten? WALBERT: Let me think. I don&#039 ; t recall right now. HUNTLEY: They were too intimidating? WALBERT: Dr. Boykin and his wife attended the meetings--the parents of Dr. Joel Boykin. And I remember before I began attending the meetings that they had built a very fine clinic and it had been bombed. They were a lovely couple. HUNTLEY: Where was that clinic located? WALBERT: It&#039 ; s in Ensley, I think, still. I&#039 ; m not sure. I get addresses in Ensley and Fairfield confused. HUNTLEY: They&#039 ; re close, adjacent to each other. When did you first come in contact with Fred Shuttlesworth? WALBERT: Well, when Phillips High School... When he tried to get his children registered in Phillips High School and was so brutally beaten and hospitalized as a result, my daughter wrote him a fan letter. I didn&#039 ; t know all of this was going on, because, you know, we were so terrified for our children and so they arranged to meet at one of the council meetings and I don&#039 ; t suppose he even remembers that, because his life was pretty exciting at that time. But, that&#039 ; s when I first met him. HUNTLEY: How old was your daughter? WALBERT: She was a freshman in high school. Ultimately, the Kraus&#039 ; daughter and Pam and the Shuttlesworth children got together a few times and then we read in the paper that the Southern Christian Leadership Conference was having a....it must have been a youth conference. I tried to find a newspaper article about that, but young people were conducting the meeting and there were mostly young people present, so I assume it was a young conference at Bethel Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: Was this about the same time that your daughter had written the letter? WALBERT: Yes, soon after that. So, we went there, and we were greeted by C. T. Vivian, because the Rev. Shuttlesworth was.... You know, there were several times when he had to rescue his children, I think. I&#039 ; m not sure this was the Anniston incident. He was somewhere in the county getting them out of jail or taking care of his children. That&#039 ; s where we first learned the freedom songs. We also had with us a young man whose, I don&#039 ; t know where his family&#039 ; s sympathies were, I feel sure they weren&#039 ; t hostile, but they were not actively involved and...so, uh, it was the most religious experience I had ever had up to that time. He taught us &#039 ; This Little Light of Mine&#039 ; and &#039 ; We Shall Overcome&#039 ; and it was just beautiful. HUNTLEY: Did you attend these more than once? WALBERT: No, this was a one-time event, so far as I know. They were to have been an ongoing thing.... but, well, when it was over they were going across the street for refreshments and someone came in. The children had already gone over, and someone came in and said that there was green car and these men were riding around and had circled the block a few times. They didn&#039 ; t seem terribly concerned, but I panicked and ran over there and got the children, you know, and got out. You know, Pam was just ashamed and said, &#039 ; Well, you&#039 ; ll have to call Mrs. Shuttlesworth and apologize,&#039 ; which I did, but we had this young man with us and I thought if something happened it would....Well, that gives you an idea of how terrifying things were. HUNTLEY: Were you the only White parent there? WALBERT: I was really surprised that there were no other White people there. I guess the word hadn&#039 ; t gotten around to, you know, the other White people who were connected with the Council. I feel sure that some of them would have come, but... HUNTLEY: There was no other time when there were more that were involved in that kind of participation? WALBERT: No. No. I don&#039 ; t know what the children did after that. It wasn&#039 ; t too long after that Pam left town and I really don&#039 ; t know. HUNTLEY: Did she leave before she graduated from high school? WALBERT: Yes, she got a scholarship. No, not before she graduated. Yes, she did. I&#039 ; m getting confused. She got a scholarship to a school of drama in New York, went there and then came back and finished high school. She didn&#039 ; t stay very long. She went to Birmingham Southern after that. HUNTLEY: In 1960 and &#039 ; 61 we had the sit-ins and the Freedom Rides. What was happening in Homewood at the same time that this was taking place? WALBERT: The &#039 ; Keep the Schools Open&#039 ; meetings were going on. HUNTLEY: What kind of meetings? WALBERT: &#039 ; Keep the Schools Open.&#039 ; This..uh, I wish Betty and Roger Hanson were here to tell you about that but, because Betty-- They feared for her life at a meeting that I believe was held in the library, because she had the first women&#039 ; s radio program and had brought a Swedish lady in to talk about Planned Parenthood and for that she was labeled the baby killer of Alabama and these, I would say, &#039 ; pro-violent&#039 ; people turned up that... I was not present at that meeting. I forget why I was not, but something else was going on. I did attend the next one, and I think the library didn&#039 ; t allow any more meetings there and I&#039 ; m not, I believe it was at the Tutwiler, but I&#039 ; m not sure about that. The most repulsive White man I think I&#039 ; ve ever seen, just the personification of evil, got up at that meeting, you know, which was about keeping the schools open and everything and he said something so horrendous I don&#039 ; t even want to put it on tape. It was just...it was just... they were really frightening people. They are frightening people! HUNTLEY: Well, what did he say? WALBERT: Oh, God. HUNTLEY: You don&#039 ; t necessarily have to say it, but what was the essence. WALBERT: Well, I mean the essence was very brief. It was specifically, you put a Black man in bed with a White woman and a Black snake will crawl out. I mean, oh, God, some people... HUNTLEY: So, this, then, the &#039 ; Keep The Schools Open&#039 ; campaign was as a result of the Brown v. Board and the attempts to integrate the schools, I&#039 ; m assuming? WALBERT: Yes, and as a result of all of the protests against that. It was to reinforce the teachers and faculty and community that wanted this to go on. HUNTLEY: So those were some rather heated meetings? WALBERT: Yes, they were dreadful. HUNTLEY: So, as the sit-ins and the demonstrations or the sit-ins and the freedom rides were going on, these kinds of meetings are also happening at approximately the same time. WALBERT: The Council meetings were going on every month. HUNTLEY: And you were dealing with different issues, different issues such as the schools. Did you ever... WALBERT: And, we had, we had a lady from the American Friends Service Committee come on and, I mean it was dangerous to even hold a seminar on integrating the schools. We went to some little community out in the county and I-- In retrospect, I think just to go there, and register was an act of defiance or whatever you want to call it. HUNTLEY: You were going to discuss integration of the schools? WALBERT: Yes. I don&#039 ; t know how many of those there were. The Council was involved in that...well, my involvement was with Willa Adams, Oscar Adams&#039 ; wife. He was an attorney for the schools and now a retired Supreme Court Justice, Associate Justice. I worked with Willa on gathering data as to why the schools were unequal which wasn&#039 ; t difficult to do because, you know, even before we went out, there were people like a teacher in Bessemer, Della Bryant, who attended our meetings regularly. She was telling about the school in which she taught as having a separate building for lunches and in rainy weather little children would have to carry their little plates from the lunchroom through the rain--or whatever, there wasn&#039 ; t even any kind of a shed--to their classrooms to eat because there was nowhere to eat in the lunchroom. Well, I don&#039 ; t have to tell you about that. The things...they were so disproportionate. HUNTLEY: What other kinds of inequities did you see? WALBERT: Well, at Edgewater School I remember, and that was a beautiful building as I recall, very well constructed and it... We asked to see the library and the principal took us behind the stage in the auditorium and there was a little bookcase, a little two-shelf bookcase. HUNTLEY: This was a Black school? WALBERT: Yes. Just a handful of dusty books there and that was all they had. At one time, Anny Kraus and I came out here to Miles to... We had many friends here that we met through the Council and at the invitation of the science teacher, Connie, do you remember Connie, all of a sudden, I can&#039 ; t remember her last name. But, she was teaching science and chemistry and we were taken to the labs and I think the chemistry lab had to go across the hall to the science lab even to get water. I mean, it was so unfair, you know. But, Anny went back to the University and I wasn&#039 ; t with her, but she persuaded a lot of the professors there to donate much needed equipment to Miles College. HUNTLEY: She went back to the University of Alabama? WALBERT: University in... UAB, where Frederick was teaching at that time and Roger was teaching ... Roger Hanson I spoke of was teaching there and also Abraham Segal. He was happy to take down those &#039 ; Black&#039 ; and &#039 ; White,&#039 ; I mean &#039 ; Colored&#039 ; and &#039 ; White&#039 ; signs, even before they--he was told it was alright. HUNTLEY: What was the reaction of White communities to the demonstrations that started to take place here in April and May of 1963? Were there any relationships that evolved with the Birmingham Council and... WALBERT: Well, I remember at the time driving towards Homewood where I lived, south on 18th Street and there were the Miles College children demonstrating. They were singing their freedom songs and there was such a feeling of elation and, you know, you really felt like they were experiencing true freedom for the first time just by getting out there and putting their &#039 ; warm bodies,&#039 ; as they used to say, on the line for freedom. Among them was a tall, gray-haired White man and his name was Frank Fulton. He was a teacher here at Miles. And, until that time, although I supported the demonstrations in my heart, I didn&#039 ; t think that was something I could do, you know. But, he really started me thinking about that--the need for all of us to get out into the street. HUNTLEY: Were there any reactions of, say, your neighbors to your involvement? WALBERT: Oh, one Sunday morning the children came in and said that there was a cross in the front yard that had been burned, but when I went out to investigate, it wasn&#039 ; t done by the Klan, I&#039 ; m sure. It was much smaller than they do and I had a feeling that if it was anyone close- by watching, that I didn&#039 ; t want them to think that we were intimidated by that. So, we made a big to do of...spoke loud enough for anyone to hear, [saying] &#039 ; Well, we&#039 ; ll just prop up this shrub here with it,&#039 ; you know, which we did and left it there for I don&#039 ; t know how long. I don&#039 ; t know how.... They didn&#039 ; t say too much about it. I&#039 ; m sure they felt something, but... HUNTLEY: But they didn&#039 ; t really say anything? WALBERT: They knew it was .... what we were doing was right. HUNTLEY: Were there others in your neighborhood who were as active as you? WALBERT: No. One--Some neighbors up the street that I persuaded to attend one of our yearly state dinners was one who was victimized by that infamous paper. That time, they not only threw... What they would do was encircle your name and throw it on your street and on...for all the neighbors to see. They would throw it on the lawns of all the neighbors. HUNTLEY: This was the Birmingham Independent? WALBERT: Yes. That day, they threw out two, and they were intimidated by that enough that they didn&#039 ; t attend any more meetings. I don&#039 ; t know if their job were threatened or...I don&#039 ; t remember. There was too much going on to... HUNTLEY: Did your husband attend the meetings with you? WALBERT: When he... Most of the time, he was playing. He played at what is now University Inn during the dinner hour after teaching all day to keep a roof over our head. But, he attended the state dinners, and, in fact, he sang those Tom Lehrer songs, some of those about &quot ; when Alabama gets the bomb&quot ; and some of those funny things. He was able to go to a march in Bessemer that Caleb Washington (unclear) freed many years ago. But, he really had a harder time than I did because I was associated with all of these wonderful people and he had to, in his work, put up with that. He had a photograph of Martin Luther King in his studio and someone called and said, you know, that her daughter wouldn&#039 ; t be able to come anymore because she just...she was just disturbed by the photograph of that communist in the studio and when he was working at the University Inn, he was working with two men who taught school and had to be waiters at night because their income was so poor. HUNTLEY: These were two Black men? WALBERT: Yes. One night, he told me he was really disturbed about this. They asked the manager for, what amounted to a permission slip and he wanted to know what that was all about and he had to say on there that they were out after dark on legitimate business...they were waiters at this Inn. And, I mean, you know, these were grown men and it was...there were so many awful stories like that. I remember someone, another teacher in the schools who attended our meetings and they were having a party in their yard, in the summertime, and because, you know there were more than several people there, the police broke it up. Then, of course, you know there was so much brutality against young African American men. I mean, Aaron Henry and all the bombings and everything that had been going on, you know it was just awful. HUNTLEY: How did you feel as a White person attempting to make changes in Birmingham? WALBERT: Well, there weren&#039 ; t so many of us, but I guess at the time, we had hope that things would change because there were so many books and articles and then we had television, so there was all of this exposure and, as I say, I was meeting so many stimulating people and learning so much about Black history...that it was a terrible time but a very enlightening time also. HUNTLEY: Did you know Chuck Morgan? WALBERT: Yes. HUNTLEY: Was he associated with the Birmingham Council on Human Relations during the time that you were? WALBERT: I&#039 ; m trying to think. I think that Chuck was involved with so many other issues at the time, I feel sure he must have attended some of the meetings, but not regularly. He was on a different... I think that many of the lawyers were doing other things. He was, I believe, working with the African American lawyers. HUNTLEY: You had mentioned to me earlier that you had the opportunity to meet Hosea Williams? WALBERT: Yes. Hosea was a speaker at one of our meetings and he was telling us how, about the brutality in Selma. This was during the Selma marches and how the young people were beaten and herded into corral like enclosures or sheds and water hoses poured on them and it was...although it was in the spring, it was bitter cold. Well, actually, it was in March, which can be a very bad month for us. We had many talks from people like [C.] Herbert Oliver, the Reverend Herbert Oliver, and Joe [Joseph] Ellwanger, who was our leader at the time about, you know, about doing more than just deploring and writing letters and that sort of thing. Two of our members, two of the women members, had on their own gone to Selma and came back and told me about how the police were there, the troopers, you know, laughing at the freedom songs and, you know how, the general way they acted trying to intimidate people and everything. And, they had gone down just because they were curious and wanted to see for themselves what was going on and this was just a few days before this meeting. So, when he finished speaking, I said, &#039 ; Well, how would it be if some White people went to Selma to let the world know that those people who are trying to prevent American citizens the right and privilege to register and vote did not speak for all the White people in Alabama?&#039 ; Of course, Hosea got very excited about that and we had...The whole Council group was not in accord with this and we had to take a vote. Since it was not unanimous, we decided-- Those who wanted to go [to Selma] stayed on and we formed a separate group, which we ultimately called Concerned White Citizens of Alabama. By the next morning, Hosea had sent two people over here from SCLC who came to my house. All of this was so fast! The coordinator of our march&#039 ; s name was Allen Lingo. That was just very interesting, you know, Al Lingo, the state trooper&#039 ; s nemesis. So, we even, I even met with Anny and Frederick [Kraus] and various others who would be at the little planning meeting at our house the next day about what to serve, you know, so quickly for lunch. So, I had to go to the store the next morning. They were coming very early, like 10:00, I guess. I left a note on the door for them to come in, I&#039 ; d be right back, I was at the grocery store. And when I got back, there they were sitting there. I&#039 ; m trying to think of her name. But, anyway, we had our little meeting and planned our strategy and we were-- There weren&#039 ; t that many of us, but we were assigned various areas to go to, people to approach, you know, locally, and then the other Human Relation Councils throughout the state as in Auburn, Huntsville and Talladega and, did I say Tuscaloosa? HUNTLEY: What was the response like? WALBERT: Well, we ended up with 72 people and over a short period of time--ten days&#039 ; time. I mean, people were going out all over, just in little groups. HUNTLEY: So, then, did you actually march? WALBERT: We went to Selma on Saturday, April, what was the day of &#039 ; Bloody Sunday,&#039 ; the sixth, seventh? The day before--the Saturday before &#039 ; Bloody Sunday.&#039 ; We assembled at this little Presbyterian church there and I was acting secretary for just this little event and as we came in, we all signed this little notebook and we had-- Under Allen&#039 ; s instructions we had our marshals and I can&#039 ; t remember who they were, but Frederick and my son, David, served as marshals and gave out our little pamphlet. I did give you a copy of that did I not, with our statement? Joe Ellwanger read it at the steps of the courthouse. We marched as though we were on air almost. It was frightening towards the end, but there were carloads of the Selma Black community, you know, driving along beside us as though to protect us, which I&#039 ; m sure they did. Then, as we got near the courthouse, the march stopped, and we moved up front to see what was going on. WALBERT: Joe Ellwanger was reading a telegram from the Lutheran Synod, you know, which was not in support of our march. I can&#039 ; t remember the wording, but I&#039 ; m sure you&#039 ; ll be interviewing him. HUNTLEY: Yes. WALBERT: And--which gives you an idea of how little support there was from the White churches generally. We crossed the street and, some of us were to face the courthouse and some to face the street, you know. I was facing the courthouse, and someone had fired a smoke bomb or something, but the wind had blown it over whoever had done that, you know, out of our direction, which was a small triumph. He read, and there were the usual yahoos and carrying on and, you know, loud. And then, when Joe finished reading the statement, we heard this roar and I thought, &#039 ; Oh, my God, they&#039 ; re really out in force,&#039 ; and I turned to face the building across the street. It was the whole Black community of Selma, I think, assembled there. They started singing &#039 ; We Shall Overcome&#039 ; and I&#039 ; m telling you, I&#039 ; ll never experience such a euphoric moment again. HUNTLEY: This march, then, was simply a march of White people that was protected, in effect, by the Black community of Selma? WALBERT: Yes, right. Then, on the way back, they were in their cars following us on the way back also. But, we got word when we got back to get out of town as fast as we could because they had seen people coming in with the baseball bats and that sort of thing, you know. But, the reception when we got there to that little church was something that I wish had been recorded because it was fantastic. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of at that time? WALBERT: The Episcopal Church. I&#039 ; m trying to think what-- I guess it was after the Shuttlesworth incidents that Pam and I went to the Suffragan Bishop and were told, in essence, that there was nothing they could do. They couldn&#039 ; t afford to turn away any of their flock--which, you know, we thought made us expendable--but that we could do something. That&#039 ; s putting it rather crudely, but I didn&#039 ; t go back after that. HUNTLEY: So, the church was not involved? WALBERT: No. We had a token membership from the church during all that time. Two people. HUNTLEY: How would you evaluate the Birmingham movement, its successes and failures? WALBERT: I wish we had continued, and I wish we had taken up Dr. King&#039 ; s anti-war movement, because, to my way of thinking, it may be simplistic, but I think the Vietnam War was the thing that really destroyed our dreams. We lost our ideals a lot and the money for that program that was going to give everyone an opportunity...[she begins to weep]. HUNTLEY: So that, you are suggesting that the Vietnam War actually took the money that could have gone for the movement and... WALBERT: For that education we were promised at one of our meetings, so that every child could go as far as he wanted to educationally, and.... HUNTLEY: How would you, then, evaluate the impact that the movement had upon your family, friends and community? WALBERT: Oh, well, I am sure it--[wiping her eyes] It was broadening to say the least. It gave us a sense of freedom that we certainly didn&#039 ; t have before, because we were all victims of the system. It was great liberation for all of us. HUNTLEY: In talking with Vincent Harding, he was saying, and he has said in his books, that the movement, in a sense, freed the community--both Blacks and Whites--and had a tremendous impact upon the ways in which people viewed themselves and the way people viewed others in relation to themselves across racial lines. And that seemed to be what you were suggesting. WALBERT: Yes. HUNTLEY: If you could turn the clock back and you found yourself as chief advisor to Dr. King, Rev. Shuttlesworth or the White business community, how would you advise them in terms of changing what took place, or would you advise them to do anything different than what was done? WALBERT: Well, good heavens, I don&#039 ; t feel like I could advise any of those people in what to do. I mean, they were certainly right in getting rid of all the signs and doing more hiring and that sort of thing. The thing I still weep about is the plight of so many of our children, and that they haven&#039 ; t provided them with the environment that they deserve--that they have a right to. I don&#039 ; t know how many of us who live in safe communities could survive in one of these terribly dangerous areas for one day and we expect our little children to do that and come out unscathed. Everyone should have the right to grow up in a, not necessarily with a lot of wealth, but certainly in a beautiful environment with trees and a chance to be close to nature. Being close to nature, I think, is an essential part of the need for human development. It&#039 ; s unconscionable that we&#039 ; ve let all these years go by and haven&#039 ; t done anything about that. HUNTLEY: And you see that as being something that has to be done? WALBERT: We have to have money to get the children in safe environments and that can&#039 ; t be done by the African American community alone. It has to be a coordinated effort. HUNTLEY: Finally, let me just ask you if there is anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with that relates to race relations in Birmingham and how the society has evolved over time--your involvement or any other thing that you would like to say? WALBERT: Well, I would like to see our neighborhoods more integrated. I think that... You know, you can feel a kinship to your neighbor whether you have anything in common or not just by having everyday contact with them. Like, I am sure there are many people in your neighborhood that you don&#039 ; t see socially so much, but you care about them. We&#039 ; re so isolated from one another that there isn&#039 ; t as much opportunity for that as I would like for there to be. HUNTLEY: How do you think that could be achieved? WALBERT: I don&#039 ; t know. It isn&#039 ; t... I don&#039 ; t know. And, I don&#039 ; t know if that is so important as building better communities...building up communities where the children can be safe. That&#039 ; s my primary concern in that their schools be as good as any school in well-subsidized communities such as Mountain Brook and Vestavia and Homewood. That they have the same .... HUNTLEY: The children are the future. WALBERT: Absolutely. HUNTLEY: And, when we look at them and whatever our children are, that&#039 ; s what we will be in generations to come. I agree wholeheartedly. Mrs. Walbert, I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule to come and sit with us this morning and just to talk about our Birmingham and maybe we&#039 ; ll have to do this again sometime. WALBERT: Thank you, I enjoyed being here. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=EKWalbert1995.xml EKWalbert1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Eileen Kelley Walbert (1995) Description An account of the resource Eileen Kelley Walbert discusses getting involved in the movement after moving to Birmingham as a young adult. She participated in Movement activities, usually as the only white person. She marched in an act of white solidarity in Selma, Alabama. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950203W Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Police brutality--United States Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-02-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/9ce26e48abf7edeb0b41b2ba0450eff1.jpg 6cc2ea610bd8baed9e645d71c40a0bec Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Emily Thomas Ellis OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ETEllis1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. J.J. Newberry (Department Store) United States. Civil Rights Act of 1964 OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 July 12, 1995 Emily Thomas Ellis 19950712E 0:43:56 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department J.J. Newberry (Department Store) United States. Civil Rights Act of 1964 Emily Thomas Ellis Horace Huntley Video 1:|13(7)|43(4)|67(10)|92(8)|110(9)|134(7)|158(2)|180(2)|211(8)|246(4)|262(2)|282(8)|296(10)|309(3)|328(8)|360(16)|375(7)|392(1)|407(9)|432(13)|450(8)|474(2)|490(11)|513(7)|528(10)|557(2)|578(10)|604(4)|619(14)|639(15)|657(14)|671(11)|689(1)|711(1)|725(6)|740(10)|754(3)|767(2)|790(3)|802(13)|814(7)|827(7)|839(10) 0 https://youtu.be/trQsIg-gWiY YouTube video English 19 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Ms. Emily Thomas Ellis for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College. Emily Thomas Ellis is introduced. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Ellis, Emily Thomas ; Miles College African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Oral history interview 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute 33.4810, -86.9089 17 Miles College https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 34 Family Background Thank you for coming out and sitting with us today to talk to us about your experiences in the Civil Rights Movement. Ellis begins by describing her family ; her father worked at Fairfield Steel, and her mother was a housewife. Ellis is the second oldest of six children. Fairfield (Ala.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; U.S. Steel Fairfield Steel ; Industrial High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; U.S. Steel 123 Educational Background Where did you start first grade? Ellis describes the schools she attended in her childhood, and she goes into detail about her experiences at Parker High School ; she talks about her personal development during that time as well as all the teachers who helped her and other school administrators. She also speaks about how she worked for Head Start and then taught at Price Elementary School. Daniel Payne College ; Head Start Program (U.S.) ; Miles College ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Price Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) African American school principals ; Birmingham Public Schools (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Head Start Program (U.S.) 429 Student Protests &amp ; Demonstrations What do you remember about those days, let's say prior to the big demonstrations of '63? Ellis recounts her experience in the 1963 demonstrations walking to 16th St. Baptist Church after arriving at school to discover that the gates were locked. She states there were about 500 students from Parker High School that marched there. She also describes the injuries she received during the marches. King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Williams, Hosea ; Wren, Tommy ; Young, Andrew 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; African American student movements ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 994 Circumstances of Arrest &amp ; Reactions from Social Circles Tell me about the day you were arrested. How did the day start? Ellis details her arrest after sitting at the lunch counter at Newberry's, and then tells how her family members and teachers responded to her experience after being released from jail. J.J. Newberry (Department Store) ; Nonviolence Arrest--United States ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 1691 Discrimination in Birmingham I got on the bus one day, there were no seats and there were plenty seats up front. Ellis speaks about racial discrimination she faced in Birmingham including riding the bus downtown, not being served in retail spaces, and how she watched her friend's school grades dramatically decrease once she was integrated into West End High School. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Roosevelt City, (Ala.) ; West End High School (Birmingham, Ala.) Discrimination in education--United States ; Discrimination in retail service ; Segregation in transportation 2031 The Bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church &amp ; Its Effects This particular time, in 1965, '64, of course, there are a number of things that are taking place. All this started in '63. The bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church, do you remember that? Ellis recalls the community's intense anger after the bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church.Also, how she saw more African Americans employed in Birmingham businesses after the Civil Rights Bill was passed. United States. Civil Rights Act of 1964 ; Wesley, Claude 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; African Americans--Employment 2305 The Movement &amp ; Future Generations If you had the opportunity, if you had the wherewithal to be able to change anything that you went through at the time, what would you change? Ellis summarizes her feelings on the Movement and reflects on how its success left a positive impact for the future generations, including her daughter. She emphasizes how the values of nonviolence are key to the continuing improvement of society. Future of children ; Nonviolence Civil rights movement 2599 Conclusion of Interview Mrs. Ellis, I want to thank you for coming today and we certainly do appreciate it. Interview is concluded. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history interview Oral History Emily Thomas Ellis discusses being arrested for participating in a sit-in at Newberry's department store. She was also injured in a large student march in 1963. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Emily Thomas Ellis for the Birmingham Civil Rights lnstitute&#039 ; s Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College. This July 12, 1995. Welcome, Mrs. Ellis. ELLIS: Thank you. HUNTLEY: Thank you for coming out and sitting with us today to talk to us about your experiences in the Civil Rights Movement. I want to start just by asking some general kinds of questions about your background. Tell me a little about your parents. Were your parents from Birmingham? ELLIS: Yes. Both were from Birmingham. My mother was a housewife and my father was a steel worker at Fairfield Steel in Fairfield. HUNTLEY: I see. Tell me a little about their education. How much schooling did they have? ELLIS: My mother finished high school and my father was a high school drop out, but he still worked at U. S. Steel to support the family. HUNTLEY: Did she go to Parker? ELLIS: Yes she did. During the time that she went it was Industrial High School and I think it was in 1942 or something like that when she finished Parker. HUNTLEY: Did he also go to Parker? ELLIS: No. He didn&#039 ; t get any further than elementary school. HUNTLEY: I see. And, he was a steel worker at U. S. Steel? ELLIS: Yes. He retired from U. S. Steel. HUNTLEY: And your mother was a housewife, she worked at home? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have? ELLIS: I have three sisters and two brothers. HUNTLEY: Where do you fit into that group? ELLIS: I&#039 ; m the second. HUNTLEY: You&#039 ; re the second oldest? ELLIS: I&#039 ; m the second oldest. HUNTLEY: Where did you start first grade? ELLIS: I started first grade in Rising, at Princeton Elementary school. The principal was Mr. Wesley, Claude A. Wesley during the time that I was there. HUNTLEY: So did you go at Princeton from first through sixth grade? ELLIS: Yes. During that time Princeton stopped at the fifth grade. So after the fifth grade I went to Hill school. And Mr. Parnell C. Jones was the principal there. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Hill school? ELLIS: The teachers were nice. Very strict, but concerned and dedicated. HUNTLEY: Were you living in Rising at the time? ELLIS: Yes. I was living in Rising during that time. HUNTLEY: So Rising is probably three or four miles from Hill. How did you get from Rising to Hill? ELLIS: We used to walk or either we would commute, car pool. HUNTLEY: You mean you walked that distance? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Kids today don&#039 ; t want to walk to the grocery store. ELLIS: Well, we did. We did or either we car pooled. HUNTLEY: And you went from Hill to Parker? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you graduated from Parker High school? ELLIS: Yes. In January, 1965. HUNTLEY: Were you active in any of the activities at Parker? ELLIS: During that time I was very shy. I wasn&#039 ; t active. I really wasn&#039 ; t a very good student until the 10th grade. I was shy. And when I got into the 10th grade I met Loretta Allen and she inspired me to be myself and have confidence in myself. And still today, she&#039 ; s my mentor. I still call her now. HUNTLEY: What was her name? ELLIS: Loretta Allen. She is at the board now. HUNTLEY: So that&#039 ; s your mentor? ELLIS: Yes. She&#039 ; ll always be my mentor. HUNTLEY: Great. Parker is obviously known worldwide and I know that you are very proud of Parker. How would you characterize Parker? What was it like to be a student at Parker High in the 1960s? ELLIS: Well, during that time Parker High school was &quot ; the school&quot ; . I was proud to be a student there. We didn&#039 ; t have fights there or gangs or anything like that. Mostly everybody was just friends and things like that. During school hours we had auditorium periods and we had very nice programs and the principal, of course, &quot ; Big Red.&quot ; Everybody that knew him, R. C. Johnson as &quot ; Big Red,&quot ; he was a very strict principal. HUNTLEY: Was &quot ; Big Red&quot ; a nickname that the students gave him? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: So you didn&#039 ; t call him that in front of his face? ELLIS: Oh, no. You didn&#039 ; t call him that. During that time, even though Parker High school was so crowded, he knew every student at Parker High school. HUNTLEY: By name? ELLIS: By name. Yes. He could call you by name. HUNTLEY: So basically you knew that you were known? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: So that, in fact, was a deterrent against getting into any trouble or anything? ELLIS: Yes. And, then, not only that, during that time the teachers really kept you in line. They were really a tremendous role model. HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school? ELLIS: After high school I went into Daniel Payne College for two years. And I went there, I dropped out, I got married, I had a child and I worked for Head Start for 23 years. And, after leaving Head Start after 23 years, I got on with the board in August, 1992. HUNTLEY: And that was as a result of your completing a degree? ELLIS: Yes, at Miles College in May, 1992. HUNTLEY: And now what kind of work are you doing? ELLIS: Presently, I am a second grade teacher at Price Elementary school. HUNTLEY: So you like to deal with the younger ones? ELLIS: I love it. HUNTLEY: Is that right? ELLIS: Yes. I like it very much. HUNTLEY: Great. During your high school days, this was during sort of the height of the Movement, between &#039 ; 61 and &#039 ; 65. ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about those days, let&#039 ; s say prior to the big demonstrations of &#039 ; 63? Do you remember the Freedom Riders coming to Birmingham? ELLIS: Oh, yes. I remember them very well. One morning when I got to school I was getting off the bus and I think the gates were locked and I was saying &quot ; Why are all the gates locked?&quot ; And there were all of these men standing outside and they were saying &quot ; Don&#039 ; t try to go inside the gate.&quot ; And he told us, he said, &quot ; Just march in single file and we&#039 ; re going to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church.&quot ; HUNTLEY: This is actually in &#039 ; 63 then when the demonstrations were going on? ELLIS: Yes, it was. HUNTLEY: So you went to school? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And that morning, I assume you walked to school? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: You arrived there and you found that the gates were locked? You could not get into the classroom? ELLIS: Well, what I think had happened, they had been told it was going to be something like, turning out a mass-- HUNTLEY: So the gates were locked to keep the children inside? ELLIS: Yes. The ones who were already in there, they had to stay in. I don&#039 ; t know who told them but I think they were warned that we were going to walk out. HUNTLEY: So you were one of those students that never made it in? ELLIS: No. I didn&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: Well, how many students were outside the gates? ELLIS: Over five or six hundred. You couldn&#039 ; t hardly see the sidewalk. HUNTLEY: So what happened? ELLIS: There were about four or five men outside and they told us don&#039 ; t go inside. HUNTLEY: Do you remember who those men were? ELLIS: If I&#039 ; m not mistaken, maybe Hosea Williams. I saw Hosea Williams and during that time, I think Andrew Young and Tommy Wren, I think. I&#039 ; m not sure it&#039 ; s been so long. HUNTLEY: Were they talking to the students? ELLIS: Yes. They said &quot ; marching in single file and y&#039 ; all follow us. We&#039 ; re going down to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church.&quot ; HUNTLEY: So you were marching in single file from Parker High school to Sixteenth Street? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Now Parker is on what? ELLIS: Eighth Avenue, North. HUNTLEY: Eighth Avenue and what street is that cross street? .ELLIS: Third Street. HUNTLEY: On Third Street? ELLIS: Yes. Back then that address was 300 Eighth Avenue North. HUNTLEY: So you were marching from Third Street to Sixteenth Street? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you had 500 children? That was a pretty big group? ELLIS: Yes, it was. And we did stop for the traffic lights and it took us a long time to get there, but we still arrived there safely without anything happening. HUNTLEY: And, then, what happened once you arrived at Sixteenth Street? ELLIS: I was so shocked because I had never seen Dr. Martin Luther King before and he was in the pulpit and he introduced himself. He told us why we were there. He told us that they were going to use us for the march. He said that we were tired of being pushed around. Tired of riding at the back of the bus. Tired of not being able to eat at the lunch counters. Tired of going in the restroom and there is a &quot ; white&quot ; sign and a &quot ; colored&quot ; sign. Tired of drinking out of the water fountain that says &quot ; colored only&quot ; and, then, most of the time it was out of order. So that meant that we didn&#039 ; t have anywhere to get any water when we were in town. - - HUNTLEY: So how was he received then. You&#039 ; re estimating 500 students coming from Parker. Were there students from other schools as well? ELLIS: I really don&#039 ; t know. I can only just speak for the ones from Parker, but I know it was just packed. HUNTLEY: The church was packed? ELLIS: Yes. And they taught us freedom songs, &quot ; I ain&#039 ; t going to let nobody turn me around.&quot ; &quot ; I woke up this morning with my mind set on freedom.&quot ; And we learned those songs. HUNTLEY: This was, of course, during the day, but did you attend the mass meetings on a regular basis? ELLIS: Yes, I did. HUNTLEY: Did you do that prior to this particular time or did you start attending them after? ELLIS: Well, I had attended several ones before at New Pilgrim Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: What were the mass meetings like? How would you describe a mass meeting? ELLIS: Very spiritual and rewarding. HUNTLEY: How was it rewarding? ELLIS: They had the gospel choir. They sang freedom songs. It was just so moving and spiritual and it really hit you and put that drive in you that you wanted more. That you want to be more. That you weren&#039 ; t going to let anybody stop you from reaching your goal. Those spiritual and those gospel songs and prayer was just so rewarding. HUNTLEY: The mass meetings that you attended were they similar to what happened that day that you left Parker and came to Sixteenth Street? ELLIS: Yes. Very much the same. They were just introducing us to different people and, then, telling us why we were going to do this. HUNTLEY: Did you actually march that particular day? ELLIS: No. I didn&#039 ; t march. I think it was about two days later before I marched. As a matter of fact, I think I marched three days before I was arrested. The first day when I marched, my hair was so pretty. I had a head full of pretty curls and we marched. And, the policemen put the dogs on us. They had the hose pipe on us and the water was so forceful from the hose pipe until it just slit my arm open. I mean it just laid open. HUNTLEY: Were you taken to the hospital? ELLIS: No. I really didn&#039 ; t make a big deal out of it, but my arm was badly bruised. HUNTLEY: Was it bruised or was it actually open? ELLIS: It was open and bleeding, yes. And, so I did not get arrested that day. HUNTLEY: Were you doing this with the approval of your parents? ELLIS: No. She thought I was in school, my mother. My parents thought that I was in school. They didn&#039 ; t ever know what I was doing. HUNTLEY: But, when you came home with your arm open? ELLIS: Yes. I really didn&#039 ; t explain to her. As a matter of fact, I really didn&#039 ; t let her see. But, later on, after a couple of days it was kind of stiff and I was telling her. And she said, &quot ; What happened?&quot ; And I don&#039 ; t know what I told her. HUNTLEY: But you didn&#039 ; t tell her that you were in the march? ELLIS: It wasn&#039 ; t related to the marching at all, no. Because she wouldn&#039 ; t -- HUNTLEY: So was that the first day of the march that you were attacked? ELLIS: No. I didn&#039 ; t get attacked that bad the first day. I think it was mostly like the second or the third day. HUNTLEY: Okay. Then were you leaving home every morning? ELLIS: Like I was going to school. HUNTLEY: But you would go to Sixteenth Street? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Every morning? ELLIS: Every morning. HUNTLEY: Were there other students with you that were doing the same thing? Would you go to school and, then, leave there and go to Sixteenth Street, or would you go directly from home to Sixteenth Street? ELLIS: No. We would meet up at school. And, then, one day when we got to school we walked out. HUNTLEY: Okay. Tell me about that. You were in, how did you get out? ELLIS: Well, of course, the gates were opened and so we decided that we would just go into school that morning. And we went in and stayed about a half hour. After we had been in there somebody said, &quot ; Hey, it&#039 ; s time to go.&quot ; So I don&#039 ; t know if they were already outside waiting for us or what. And they said, &quot ; Hey, it&#039 ; s time to go.&quot ; And so when &quot ; they&quot ; said it was time to go, all the students just stood up, they slammed their books down and they walked out. HUNTLEY: All of the students? ELLIS: In that class and some more classes, too. And, then it was somebody again waiting on us outside and they took us back down to Sixteenth Street church. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the day that you were arrested. How did the day start? ELLIS: Well, I left home like I was going to school and my friends and I, well, we went to the church. We were singing songs and they were preaching to us non­ violence. You aren&#039 ; t supposed to be violent. Don&#039 ; t hit back. That was all they ever said. That this is a non-violent movement. And, so they lined us up and we started to march and we go down to Newberry&#039 ; s and we walked in. There were policemen already in the street. And, so when we walked in, there were so many of us, we sat down to the counter and they refused to serve us and they asked us to get up. And we would not get up. And they started to pulling us up from the seats. And as they pulled us up from the seats, we just got on our knees and we started praying. HUNTLEY: Before you left, you walked from the school to the church? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And, then at the church, what happened? ELLIS: Okay. When we got to the church they was telling us where we were supposed to go for that day, and what to do. They said, &quot ; We&#039 ; re going down to Newberry&#039 ; s and we&#039 ; re going to be served at that counter or we&#039 ; re going to jail.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Was that the entire church or were there designated places for different people to go? ELLIS: Well, I think during this particular day, if I&#039 ; m not mistaken, I think everybody went to Newberry&#039 ; s. Yes. I think we were all designated that day for Newberry&#039 ; s. HUNTLEY: And, then, you went in, you sat at the counter? ELLIS: Yes. And there were Whites sitting there and when we sat down they jumped up, like that. And, then, when we told them that we wanted something to eat, they refused to serve us. Then, they told us to move and the policemen started to pull on us. And, as they pulled on to me I just went down on my knees. And I did my hands like this, I started praying. And, as I said, there were so many of us and they would put us in paddy wagons and everything. And it was so many of us until I was able to get on a big bus. I don&#039 ; t remember what kind of bus it was, but I went to jail on the bus. HUNTLEY: Did they force you to get off your knees or did they have to carry out you to the paddy wagon? ELLIS: They would try to carry us. HUNTLEY: Okay. So they carried you? ELLIS: Pulling and carried. HUNTLEY: And you were then put on a bus and taken where? ELLIS: The Birmingham jail was so full that we went to the fairgrounds. HUNTLEY: And how long were you there? ELLIS: I think for two days. HUNTLEY: What was it like, in jail? What was the experience like? ELLIS: Well, we didn&#039 ; t really consider ourselves as being jailed. What we considered as being in jail was being alive all these years and we couldn&#039 ; t eat here, couldn&#039 ; t sit there. So I think to us it wasn&#039 ; t as bad. HUNTLEY: What was the food like? ELLIS: The food was nice, sandwiches, catered food and like that. But, we didn&#039 ; t eat. We would sing and pray all night. And we didn&#039 ; t sleep. HUNTLEY: Why? What were you doing? ELLIS: We didn&#039 ; t want to sleep. HUNTLEY: You say you were singing and praying? ELLIS: All night. We wanted to get our point over that we were tired. Tired of being without and tired of not being able to ride the bus and tired of drinking out of a water fountain that said &quot ; colored.&quot ; HUNTLEY: What did you do for those two days? Did you do anything other than just sing and pray? You said you didn&#039 ; t eat. Would you do any work? Did they work you? ELLIS: We didn&#039 ; t do anything. It was so crowded. HUNTLEY: How many people were you with? ELLIS: Well, it was just so crowded. I don&#039 ; t know, maybe about four or five hundred. HUNTLEY: Did you have beds? ELLIS: Yes. They had some of these little cots and things, but we didn&#039 ; t sleep. We just stood and we got on our knees and we prayed a lot. HUNTLEY: So you, in effect, basically kept them very busy? ELLIS: Yes. That was our reason that we weren&#039 ; t going to sleep, we were going to keep them busy. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your release from jail, from the fairgrounds? ELLIS: Well, I remember when they bailed us out. It was an experience not ever going before a judge before, but it wasn&#039 ; t that traumatic. The most traumatic part was being in bondage all those years. HUNTLEY: What did your mother have to say? When did your mother first find out that you were in jail?· ELLIS: When I called her. HUNTLEY: And what was her reaction? ELLIS: She had a fit. She said, &quot ; I thought you were in school.&quot ; And I said, &quot ; I hadn&#039 ; t been at school in about a week.&quot ; And I told her, I said, &quot ; But not to worry, they are going to get us out.&quot ; And I think she called, I don&#039 ; t know who she called. I think she called somebody and they told her that they were going to bail everybody out. And so she didn&#039 ; t have that to do. But, when I was released and I went home and she told me, she said that, &quot ; I thought you were in school.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, mother, I hadn&#039 ; t been in school in about a week. I&#039 ; m marching for something that I believe in.&quot ; She didn&#039 ; t give me any static. She just told me that she would support me in my beliefs. I think by them, by her being a housewife and she wanted more for her kids anyway, and you just really have to stand strong and just really do what you believe in. HUNTLEY: What did your father say about your participation? ELLIS: He had a fit. He had a fit. He just took his hand, when I got home and he said, &quot ; And you haven&#039 ; t been to school in a week.&quot ; And, I said, &quot ; Well, let me explain to you.&quot ; And I went on to explain to him and he kind of calmed down. And later on he told me that he understood and he asked me, &quot ; Now how is this going effect you in school?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t right now, and I&#039 ; m not really concerned about school right now.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Were you suspended from school? ELLIS: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: For how long? ELLIS: Well, I think about 3 or 4 days. HUNTLEY: Did your parents have to take you back to school? ELLIS: Yes, they had to take me back. But, if I&#039 ; m not mistaken, I think that there was an order handed down that everybody that had been suspended from school had to go back. The board had to let them back. HUNTLEY: So how were you received when you went back to school by your teachers? ELLIS: Fine. HUNTLEY: Did they encourage you at all to get involved or did they suggest that you should not get involved? What was their posture at the time? ELLIS: Well, I&#039 ; m trying to think. My homeroom teacher didn&#039 ; t really say very much, but they were concerned. And, I guess back then you just really had to not get so involved yourself or give anybody advice. But, we were young and we just wanted to do it. HUNTLEY: After you were released from jail, the first time, did you demonstrate again? ELLIS: I sure did. I went back again. HUNTLEY: Did you leave school again? ELLIS: Yes, I did. HUNTLEY: Did your parents know that you had left school? ELLIS: No. HUNTLEY: But you were not arrested a second time? ELLIS: No, I wasn&#039 ; t. And back during that time they used to call your home when you were out, but I think during this time they had so many out doing the marching. HUNTLEY: So no one ever called your home? ELLIS: No. And, then, too they might have called, but no one was there during that time. HUNTLEY: Then after this first encounter and, then, you demonstrated again, you were not arrested, but were you attacked? Were you attacked by the dogs? ELLIS: Still with the water and the dogs and the clubs. HUNTLEY: Were you personally physically attacked? ELLIS: Hit. I mean they would hit you. HUNTLEY: Who are &quot ; they&quot ; now? ELLIS: The policemen. They would tell you to move and if you didn&#039 ; t move, they would hit you for you to move. I&#039 ; m not going to say it was a violent blow, hard enough to send me to the hospital, but you could feel it. HUNTLEY: Where were you hit? ELLIS: Hit on the arms and the legs, something like that. HUNTLEY: Did you ever encounter just average White citizens that attacked anything during the demonstrations or was it just always police and firemen? ELLIS: It was always policemen and the firemen that really did everything to us. Well, to me. HUNTLEY: What about the dogs? What was your reaction when the dogs were turned loose? ELLIS: I had said I was sad, because we&#039 ; re supposed to be human beings and for them to sic dogs onto human beings, I was very upset about that. Knowing that we meant so little to them as human beings to put animals on us. HUNTLEY: Were there other members of your family involved? ELLIS: No. I was the only one. HUNTLEY: So your parents really were not involved? Did they attend the mass meetings? ELLIS: No. They didn&#039 ; t attend the meetings and they weren&#039 ; t involved. HUNTLEY: So you&#039 ; re the only one out of your family that was actively involved? ELLIS: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: What were the reactions of your brothers and sisters? ELLIS: They were shocked because they thought I was in school. And, then I was always the quiet one. And they said, &quot ; I know she hasn&#039 ; t been cutting school like that.&quot ; But I was. And they were very shocked. They were disturbed. HUNTLEY: They were disturbed with it? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: What did they say to you? ELLIS: Well, they were younger and they hadn&#039 ; t the experience that I had going to Woolworth or going to Newberry&#039 ; s or riding the bus. I got on bus one day, there were no seats and there were plenty seats up to the front. And, I moved the sign where it said &quot ; White&quot ; , up some so I could have a seat and the bus driver stopped the bus. HUNTLEY: And what did he do? ELLIS: And he told me that I had to go to the back and I said, &quot ; Well, there are no seats in the back.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; But you&#039 ; ll have to stand up.&quot ; And another time I rode the bus I sat down and this lady jumped up and she rung the bell and she got off. HUNTLEY: Was this a White woman? ELLIS: Yes. She got off. And usually when we got on the bus and there were seats and if we attempted to sit down, they would call the police on us. That was before the marching had started. HUNTLEY: After the boards were removed and you rode the bus, did you go to the rear of the bus? ELLIS: Yes, I did. But it wasn&#039 ; t a good atmosphere nine times out of ten. They would turn like this or do something like they&#039 ; d look out the window. Or either they would hold their head down. HUNTLEY: So you would sit in the front then with White people? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Rather than going to the back of the bus? ELLIS: Yes. I&#039 ; m not going to sit in the back any more. I was determined. HUNTLEY: So are there other experiences that reminded you and help you to determine that there was a need for a change that you may have encountered while either riding the bus or downtown? ELLIS: Yes. While being downtown, even while shopping, even if you were the first one in line, the salesperson was going to wait on that White person first. And when I was small I didn&#039 ; t understand that. And as I got older, I kept going to town and going to town and I said, &quot ; Well, I was first.&quot ; And they looked at you like you didn&#039 ; t say anything. Back then if you were White, you were right and you were always first. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of at the time? ELLIS: During that time I was a member of the Rising Star Baptist Church in Rising. HUNTLEY: Was your church actively involved? Was your minister and other members of your church involved in the Movement? ELLIS: No. My minister wasn&#039 ; t really actively involved. As a matter of fact I think he really was kind of hesitant about it. He was an older minister and I really think he was really hesitant about coming involved because of maybe what might would have happened to him or the church or something like that. HUNTLEY: Were there close friends of yours that were involved with you? ELLIS: Yes. I have several friends. I have one friend that&#039 ; s deceased now. We marched all together and we went to jail together. Her name was Loretta Demis. And I remember Josephine, I&#039 ; m trying to remember her last name. She integrated West End High School. It was Josephine Power, she&#039 ; s dead now also. HUNTLEY: Did you ever consider being one of the first Black students to go into one of the white high schools? ELLIS: No. I didn&#039 ; t ever think about that because to me, that would have been more pressure because my girlfriend, the one that went, she was a straight A student at Parker High school and when she went to West End High school, she made all Os. And she was very smart. HUNTLEY: Did she graduate from West End? ELLIS: Yes she did. But she wasn&#039 ; t an honor student anymore, but she still finished. HUNTLEY: What did she do afterwards? ELLIS: Well, she left here and went to Chicago. She married and, then, she went to Chicago. HUNTLEY: Obviously those were turbulent times. Now you, at that time, were living in Roosevelt City, is that right? ELLIS: Yes. Well, when I first started marching I was living in Rising and, then, we moved to Roosevelt City. HUNTLEY: And from Roosevelt City you, of course, had to take the bus to school? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me about any experiences you may have had? ELLIS: Well, Roosevelt City wasn&#039 ; t that bad because it was predominantly all Black community and you didn&#039 ; t see too many Whites in that area. Maybe the few in that community had cars or whatever, but usually when I rode the Roosevelt City bus, I didn&#039 ; t see too many Whites, but we would always go to the front. HUNTLEY: So you rode the public bus from Roosevelt to Parker? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you have to transfer? Did you go through downtown? ELLIS: I would transfer downtown, yes. HUNTLEY: This particular time, in 1965, 64, of course, there are a number of things that are taking place. All this started in &#039 ; 63. The bombing of Sixteenth Street Baptist Church, do you remember that? ELLIS: Yes, I heard that bombing. During that time I think I was on Fountain Heights and we were getting ready to go to church. I was getting ready to go to New Pilgrim Church and we heard this loud noise and like our whole community was just shook. And I said, &quot ; I wonder what is it?&quot ; And, so, about 15 minutes later we saw something on the screen. &quot ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church was bombed.&quot ; And, so we got in our cars and we could only go so far. It was the most horrible sight I had ever seen, the destruction of the church and we stayed there until they brought the bodies out of those four little girls. It was horrible. HUNTLEY: That was an experience that I&#039 ; m sure you&#039 ; ll never forget. ELLIS: Yes, I&#039 ; ll never forget that. By them being so young and so innocent and trying to serve the Lord and you couldn&#039 ; t even go to church and be at peace. HUNTLEY: Did you know any of the children that were in the church? ELLIS: Well, I knew the fathers. I knew Claude Wesley was the principal of the school that I attended and Mr. Martin was a principal of a school that I had attended, and Mr. Martin never got over his child&#039 ; s death. He didn&#039 ; t live too much longer after that. HUNTLEY: What was the atmosphere like at the time? ELLIS: Everybody was mad. They just wanted to go out and just do anything. Whatever it took to get revenge. They were mad. As a matter of fact, I think I remember hearing some people say there was a lot of violence that went on that night after the bombing. HUNTLEY: After the bombing, actually prior to the bombing there was the March on Washington and, then, there was the bombing in September. The March on Washington in August, the bombing in September. In 1964 we had the passing of the Civil Rights Bill and many said it resulted from what took place in Birmingham. ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And this was a bill based upon public accommodations. Did you remember anything changing during that time? ELLIS: During that time I saw more Blacks hired at the banks. I saw more Blacks hired in stores. Usually when you went in the stores, the only way you would see anyone Black, they would be pushing a mop or either behind a soda fountain, you know, serving food or something like that. But as I went in the stores, I saw Black cashiers. At the bank I saw Blacks. I saw quite a bit of changes made, but what really disturbed me was when our people got these positions, how they changed so. HUNTLEY: How do you mean they changed? ELLIS: Well, I won&#039 ; t say all of them. They weren&#039 ; t courteous. They were very short with you, very impatient. HUNTLEY: Did you know any of the people that actually got positions in those stores downtown and, if so, were they active members in the Movement? ELLIS: As a matter of fact, I&#039 ; m thinking all the ones that I really saw, I don\tllthirtiqey benefitted from it, but they didn&#039 ; t march, no. They hadn&#039 ; t been active at all. HUNTLEY: So those who were not active, seemingly benefitted? ELLIS: Yes, more than we did. HUNTLEY: If you had the opportunity, if you had the where with all to be able to change anything that you went through at that time, what would you change? ELLIS: What would I change? HUNTLEY: Yes. ELLIS: That was in the 60s? HUNTLEY: Yes. The way that the Movement was administered? ELLIS: Well, I think it was very well planned, very organized. As far as structure wise, I wouldn&#039 ; t change anything because I think that non-violence was the best way. And prayer. The marching and the praying I think that was the best way because you can be loud and ignorant, that will not get anybody&#039 ; s attention when you really want something. But if you do it in a way and you do it in the right way, I think you&#039 ; ll get what you want. And just be firm about it and march and keep praying. HUNTLEY: If you were a parent in 1963 would you have allowed your child or children to participate? ELLIS: I was so protective of my daughter when she was born in 1967 I would probably say no. You know why? Because as a parent you always want to protect your child and the least little thing that would probably happen you would get so upset. So, what I went through, no, I wouldn&#039 ; t want my child to go through it, no. I&#039 ; m glad I was there to help pave the way. My daughter, I think reaped from some of the benefits because she went to Samford. And, that was in the 80s and during the 80s she told me she said that it wasn&#039 ; t like she thought it was going to be. She thought it was going to be real prejudice and all of that and she said it wasn&#039 ; t that bad. So I&#039 ; m thinking by marching, I did help her some and others also. HUNTLEY: Have you made the attempt to pass this information on about your experiences in the demonstrations to your daughter? ELLIS: Yes. We used to sit down and talk about it and she said, &quot ; Well, mommy they hit you with the billy club and they put you in jail and your arm was open?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Yes, and I&#039 ; ll never forget it.&quot ; And she says, &quot ; Oh, I couldn&#039 ; t have gone through all that. That&#039 ; s so terrible.&quot ; She would say it was so hard to believe that Birmingham was like that. She would say it was hard to believe Birmingham was like that considering the way that we are now, we could go anywhere. She said, &quot ; Oh, I wouldn&#039 ; t have ever thought it.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Finally, we&#039 ; ve talked about any number of topics, a number of subjects, is there anything else you would like to add that we may not have talked about as extensively as you would like? If so, this is your opportunity. ELLIS: No. I think the only thing I would add is that A. G. Gaston was very fundamental during this time. He was the man who had the money. And, of course, he was the one who would always bail everyone out of jail and I think we should always recognize him in the Civil Rights Movement. And, that&#039 ; s about it. I think basically all of this will never leave me. I will always remember all of these experiences and, then, when you have gone through all of this, it really makes you a much better person. It makes you appreciate what you have now and what you didn&#039 ; t have. HUNTLEY: Is there any way to pass that on to the next generation. That appreciative feeling that you have about how you have succeeded and had an impact upon changing the system for the better? ELLIS: Yes. I think what I would say to anybody and as I talk about it sometime I always tell them that violence is not the way. Prayer and if we start marching again I think that that would help too. But I also think if we would stick together as a race and stop trying to down the other person, I think we would do much better. HUNTLEY: Mrs. Ellis, I want to thank you for coming today and we certainly do appreciate it. ELLIS: I really enjoyed it. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. ELLIS: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ETEllis1995.xml ETEllis1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Emily Thomas Ellis Description An account of the resource Emily Thomas Ellis discusses being arrested for participating in a sit-in at Newberry's department store. She was also injured in a large student march in 1963. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950712E Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-07-12 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/5d786311af29dd71be4769015f5f0bdc.jpg e255ea4d7faf61ed3fc924eac750dcf0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Emma Smith Young OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ESYoung1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Buses OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 September 20, 1995 Emma Smith Young 19950920C 0:52:07 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Buses Emma Smith Young Horace Huntley Video 1:|13(6)|31(11)|54(7)|76(9)|82(10)|82(12)|87(2)|103(1)|136(6)|159(6)|180(8)|197(2)|209(11)|220(10)|237(15)|251(19)|270(3)|287(4)|306(8)|325(2)|339(18)|366(7)|389(7)|411(9)|427(13)|453(8)|478(8)|494(9)|514(14)|525(5)|546(7)|568(3)|581(11)|589(16)|602(16)|611(2)|615(3)|627(13)|644(3)|657(11)|672(10)|691(2)|706(13)|723(7)|735(3)|750(14)|766(11)|782(12)|796(11)|808(6)|818(6) 0 https://youtu.be/Zh-nvlNwGIk YouTube video English 22 Introduction of Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Emma Young for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Emma Young is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 46 Family Background I want to start by asking some general questions about your background. Where were you from? Young recalls how her mother worked as a farmer but moved to Birmingham because she wasn't being paid enough. African Americans--Agriculture ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Farmer Racism ; Wilcox County (Ala.) 490 Moving Around Birmingham What community did you live in when you first got here? Young recalls how she moved around Birmingham a lot because of her husband's job. Grasselli Heights ; Hopewell Baptist Church ; Woodward's Ore Mine Birmingham (Ala.) 658 Working as a House Maid When you got to Birmingham, did you work outside of the home? Young discusses how she worked from her home and did other people's laundry and sometimes cooked for them. Laundry ; Washing machines Birmingham (Ala.) ; Domestic Work ; Racism 972 Relationship with Her Husband Did you have a close relationship with him? Young states that she and her husband had a tough relationship but she stayed with him for fifty years. Bootleg ; Husband and wife African Americans--Marriage ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1084 Raising Money for the Movement Well, tell me what was the mass meeting like? Young describes how they raised money to fund the Movement and demonstrations. Alabama. Supreme Court ; Civil rights movement ; Mass meetings ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1233 Sitting in the White Section on the Bus You mean you sat on the buses? Young recalls following Dr. King's orders to sit at the front of the bus and refuse to move. African Americans--Segregation ; Buses ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 1296 Participation in the Demonstrations Did you ever take part in any of the demonstrations? Young recalls watching Bull Connor spray Reverend Shuttlesworth with the hoses so hard that it knocked him off the steps. Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama 1369 Her Family's Participation in the Movement So this is your son, now. He was real active in the Movement? Young describes how everyone including her grandkids were involved in the Movement and even went to jail for the cause. Civil rights movement ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; Jefferson County Jail (Jefferson County, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) 1585 Rabbis Attending Mass Meetings in Birmingham There was a situation once where some white ministers that were in the meeting, would you tell me about that? Young discusses how Bull Connor told the white Rabbis to get out of the mass meeting and then sprayed the Black people with hoses when they took the meeting to City Hall. Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; Oklahoma City (Okla.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Judaism ; Racism 1840 Memories of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church Bombing Do you remember when the 16th Street Church was bombed and those little girls were killed? Young recalls how she did not attend Sixteenth Street Baptist Church but she attended the funeral of the four girls along with several rabbis. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; 6th Avenue Baptist Church Birmingham (Ala.) 1923 Participation in the Selma to Montgomery March You also participated in the Selma to Montgomery March? Young discusses marching from Selma to Montgomery and how George Wallace would not allow them to enter the capital when they arrived in Montgomery. Liuzzo, Viola, 1925-1965 ; Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) ; Wallace, George C. (George Corley), 1919-1998 Montgomery (Ala.) ; Selma (Ala.) 2062 Having a Heart Attack at Dr. King's Funeral You also participated at the funeral of Dr. King in Atlanta? Young recalls how she had a heart attack walking to Dr. King's funeral and how she eventually made it to Morehouse yard to listen to the funeral. funeral ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) Atlanta (Ga.) 2227 Life in Birmingham Before the Movement What was Birmingham like before the Movement? Young recalls how she would refuse to give up her seat on the bus even before the Movement had started. African Americans--Segregation Birmingham (Ala.) 2403 Success of the Movement So, do you think that the Movement was successful? Young states that the Movement was very successful because Dr. King and Reverend Shuttlesworth fought for equal rights. Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 2511 Effects of the Brown v. Board of Education Ruling So the Supreme Court, obviously what you're doing, you're talking about the Supreme Court and Brown v Board of Education who changes the school system, for instance. Young recalls George Wallace standing on the steps of the University of Alabama refusing to let Black students enter, even after the Supreme Court ruling. Alabama. Supreme Court ; Stand in the Schoolhouse Door ; University of Alabama ; Wallace, George C. (George Corley), 1919-1998 Brown vs. Board of Education of Topeka ; Tuscaloosa (Ala.) 2635 Widespread Change in Birmingham You have obviously had a wide varied experience in the civil rights movement. Young recalls how people of all ages participated in the Movement and caused the change in Birmingham. Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) 2753 Her Community's Involvement in the Movement Were there other people in your community that were involved in the Movement? Young recalls how most everyone was involved in the Movement and Rev. Porter let the Movement gather in his church despite his congregation's fears. 6th Avenue Baptist Church ; Abraham Woods ; Civil rights movement ; John Porter ; Woods, Calvin Wallace 6th Avenue Baptist Church ; Birmingham (Ala.) 2909 Fearlessness and Freedom In closing, did you enjoy the Movement or were you afraid? Young recalls how she was so excited for the Movement that she was not afraid because they were working toward freedom. Civil rights movement ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.) 3072 Conclusion of Interview Well, I want to thank you for taking your time out and coming and sitting with us. Interview is concluded. Oral History Emma Smith Young discusses participating in the Selma to Montgomery March after being very involved in the Movement in Birmingham. She was arrested during a Birmingham demonstration and attended Dr. King's funeral in D.C. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Emma Young for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College and today is September 29, 1995. Thank you Mrs. Young for taking time out of your vacation to talk with us about the civil rights movement. You are here from Chicago, right? YOUNG: Right. HUNTLEY: I want to start by asking some general questions about your background. Where were you from? YOUNG: My home is Camden, Alabama in Wilcox County. HUNTLEY: Were your parents from Wilcox County? YOUNG: Yes. HUNTLEY: How long did you live in Wilcox County? YOUNG: Until I was between 17 and 18 when I left there. I came to Birmingham in 1921. HUNTLEY: And you were born what year? YOUNG: 1902. HUNTLEY: So, that makes you how old. you are 92 years old? YOUNG: 92 years old. I will soon be 93. HUNTLEY: So, you will soon be 93 years young. That&#039 ; s great. HUNTLEY: Did you have any brothers and sisters? YOUNG: Yeah. I had one sister. HUNTLEY: Is she still living? YOUNG: No, she died several years, ago. Her name was Lola McGraw. HUNTLEY: And how many children did you have? YOUNG: Three. HUNTLEY: Three children. YOUNG: One boy and two girls. HUNTLEY: And were they born in Wilcox County? YOUNG: Two of them were, the two oldest ones. Dave and Eula Mae were born in Camden. And Mamie was born in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Well, when you moved to Birmingham, what kind of work were you doing? YOUNG: I wasn&#039 ; t doing any work at the time. My mother was farming and I was going to school. HUNTLEY: How much schooling did you have? YOUNG: I didn&#039 ; t get but to the fifth grade. HUNTLEY: Did you live with your mother and your daddy? YOUNG: Yes. I lived with my mother, because my daddy was gone. . . HUNTLEY: Well, how old were you when he left? YOUNG: I was age four, when he left. HUNTLEY: Then you remained in Camden and you moved to Birmingham, actually, after you married, right? YOUNG: Yes. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your husband do? YOUNG: He did cement work. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to move from Camden to Birmingham? YOUNG: Well, my mother got tired of Camden&#039 ; s White people. At the end of the farm season they took out too much pay. Mamma didn&#039 ; t make but two bales of cotton and they took those two for their pay and left her with nothing. So she said she was leaving there. Then and going someplace where she could do better. HUNTLEY: So, she left before you left? YOUNG: Yes, she left, first and then, me and my husband decided to leave. After my husband checked with my step-daddy about a job at the cement plant. HUNTLEY: So, your husband worked in the cement plant when he first got here? YOUNG: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you live with your mother when you first got here? YOUNG: Yes, at first, but me and my husband got a room... a house ...a two room house. HUNTLEY: Well, how long did he work in the cement plan? Did he go into another occupation? YOUNG: Well, after he left there he went so many different places, but he ended up in the ore mine. And that&#039 ; s where he died ...in the ore mine. HUNTLEY: So, he worked many years in the ore mine. YOUNG: That&#039 ; s where he retired...in the ore mine. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in when you first got here? YOUNG: Hillman. HUNTLEY: In Hillman. YOUNG: Hillman Station. HUNTLEY: And what church were you affiliated with? YOUNG: Hopewell. HUNTLEY: Hopewell Baptist Church? YOUNG: Yes. Hopewell Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: And when he started to work in the mines, did you still stay in Hillman? YOUNG: No. we moved all around. We moved down in Cairo. You know where St. Luke? HUNTLEY: Right. YOUNG: Well, she joined St. Luke, then and after she joined St. Luke, I joined St. Luke. HUNTLEY: Then, were you still living in Hillman at that time? YOUNG: We were at the time...but after he started working in the ore mine, we moved to Woodward&#039 ; s. Right down there on Woodward&#039 ; s Ore Mine. HUNTLEY: So, he worked for Woodward&#039 ; s Ore Mine? YOUNG: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were you renting a house from the company? YOUNG: Yes. Yes. HUNTLEY: How long did you live there? Did you move from there? And then did you move to another place? YOUNG: Well, we moved all around. We when back to Hillman then, we left Hillman and when to Grasselli Height where we are, now. HUNTLEY: Were you renting on Grasselli Heights or were you buying your own home? YOUNG: We were buying on Grasselli Heights. HUNTLEY: So, that was sort of a move up, then when you moved to Grasselli Heights. YOUNG: Yes. We had moved up. And Mamma had got on social security, but they did not call it social security then. They called it.... HUNTLEY: ...pension. YOUNG: P.T.A. or something. HUNTLEY: Okay. But she was receiving monies from the government, I assume? YOUNG: From the government, yes. HUNTLEY: Was she living with you all at that time? YOUNG: No. She was living in her house. We were living in ours. HUNTLEY: Were they close together, in the same community? YOUNG: Yes. That&#039 ; s when we were in Hillman we lived close together. But on Grasselli Heights, where we are now, we lived together. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did you do? You had three children. We know that when you were in Camden, you were a housewife. YOUNG: Yes. HUNTLEY: When you got to Birmingham, did you work outside of the home? YOUNG: Yes. I always run my ad and I would get a job for being just a maid. Or else I would be a cook, something like that, for housework. Well, then I did this. HUNTLEY: What is that washing, the rub board? YOUNG: Rub board. Well we did the rub board wash at that time. HUNTLEY: Did you take washing into your home or did you go to their home? YOUNG: I go to their home and do it. Finally, I started taking it in my home. When I got up high enough to get me a washer and dryer of my own, then I went to taking in washing and ironing. I would wash for all the people that were working out somewhere and didn&#039 ; t have to wash when they come home. When they come home they would be too tired to wash. So I be done washed the clothes and ironed them. HUNTLEY: Were these Black folk or White folk that you were washing for? YOUNG: Well, I worked both colors, the Black and the White. HUNTLEY: You also worked as a cook, right? YOUNG: Yes. I was a cook at first, but I went up from there to a laundry. And I worked at the Snow White Laundry and I just can&#039 ; t think of the first one I worked at. But, then I went up from there to the hotel. I worked at the Gary Hotel in Bessemer. I worked in a hotel in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: We never could figure out where that hotel was, but you evidently were pretty good at what you did, because you could always get a job, is that right? YOUNG: Yes, I could always get a job because I could iron shirts so good. I could fix collars like men like them you know. I could keep that crease from (Inaudible) and I could handle a shirt so good, everybody wanted me to wash and iron for them. So one lady I worked for, Miss Florence, one day I quit that because she was trying to make a fool out of me. She said, &quot ; Oh, my girl just work. She can iron a shirt like nobody&#039 ; s business. Oh, I wish you could iron one for me. I&#039 ; ll get one over there for you and I&#039 ; ll put two or three clothes in with my clothes and (Inaudible) let you see how she can iron.&quot ; So she went and put them in and I knew the clothes. And she said, I asked her, &quot ; Why did she have more clothes this week?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t like you adding more clothes than I been washing.&quot ; She said, &quot ; All them was my clothes.&quot ; Well, I found out they were Ms. Daniels clothes and her name was Ms. Florence, and I just walked off and left them there. HUNTLEY: So you didn&#039 ; t finish that job? YOUNG: She had the clothes spread on the ground. When I got there (Inaudible) fire made up and everything ready and when she saw me again I was back at home. HUNTLEY: So you decided that you were not going to iron for somebody and not get paid for it? YOUNG: I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m not going to let her make a fool out of me.&quot ; I say, &quot ; I&#039 ; m not going to wash those other people&#039 ; s clothes. If they want me, let them hire me.&quot ; Then she went to tell me, &quot ; Emma, (Inaudible) job for you. Can&#039 ; t you do another job?&quot ; I say, &quot ; Oh, yes, (Inaudible)&quot ; I wasn&#039 ; t making but $3.00 at that one. And so, I say, &quot ; Well, I could take something and do those three with the $3.00.&quot ; Because I could take $1.00 and go put it on a layaway and put that other dollar on another layaway and when the end of the month, I would have all my dollars get together and get all that stuff out. So I&#039 ; d have plenty. HUNTLEY: So you were usually pretty well dressed? YOUNG: Yes. They wondered, &quot ; where that woman get so much of something.&quot ; &quot ; Where she get so and so.&quot ; They couldn&#039 ; t tell where I was getting it from because I was working and getting it. But it wasn&#039 ; t none of their business. So I said, I work and get what I got. I&#039 ; m entitled to use what I got and that&#039 ; s what I&#039 ; m going to do. HUNTLEY: So you were working for yourself and your children, I assume? YOUNG: Yes, my three children. My husband is gone over to the bootlegger&#039 ; s house. HUNTLEY: Did you have a close relationship with him? YOUNG: I didn&#039 ; t take up with him at all. I just let him be there. I didn&#039 ; t take up with bootleggers. He said I thought I was better than them. Well, I didn&#039 ; t take up what I didn&#039 ; t like, that kind of stuff. I wanted to go to church every Sunday and everyday I wanted to go to church, so I did. I left my husband because he wanted to know why didn&#039 ; t I go with him sometime. I said, &quot ; Why don&#039 ; t you go with me sometime.&quot ; HUNTLEY: So you both were doing different kinds of things? YOUNG: Yes. He went to the bootleggers and I went to church. HUNTLEY: Well, how did that effect your children? YOUNG: Oh, it affected my children very much because he was in and out. Living over there this week, and next week over there. And living with a step mamma over there. And living with me over there and living with him over there. We did that for a long time. But altogether we stayed together for 50 years. HUNTLEY: You and your husband were together for 50 years? YOUNG: We stayed together for 50 years. HUNTLEY: And that&#039 ; s remarkable, because of course, people stay together 50 minutes. YOUNG: Two hours. HUNTLEY: Well, I know that you were very active in the Movement. I would just like to ask you a question about the Movement. At the time the Movement was going on in 1963, well even before then, you attended the mass meetings. YOUNG: I went to all of the mass meetings. HUNTLEY: Well, tell me what was the mass meeting like? YOUNG: It was fine. We would sing and pray and pick up money to pay to the Supreme Court. HUNTLEY: Pay to the Supreme Court? YOUNG: To the man that the Supreme Court would give us what we wanted. Because he tell him I want my freedom and I want it now. They said you couldn&#039 ; t get it now, you had to wait for it. They said, I don&#039 ; t want to wait. I want my freedom now. We helped to get his freedom now. HUNTLEY: So that was what the Movement was about, was about freedom? YOUNG: Yes. Freedom Riders. He told us Freedom Riders. They named us Freedom Riders and I was riding everywhere they rode. HUNTLEY: So the meetings were at different places, this is what you are referring to? YOUNG: Yes, different churches. Sometimes we have so many, we have two or three churches full. We have the walkie talkies and everything over there in the (Inaudible) homes and the talk over there in that church. We could hear what they were saying over there. HUNTLEY: You knew Fred Shuttlesworth? YOUNG: Yes. Shuttlesworth was the president. HUNTLEY: He was the president of the Alabama Christian Movement. Who were some of the other individuals that you got to meet that were...YOUNG: Rev. Gardner after Shuttlesworth put it down, he took it up. Then Abernathy and Andy Young and some more, I can&#039 ; t remember all of them. James Bevill and so, we just had a meeting all the time until we raised the money to get us up to where we wanted to get. HUNTLEY: You were raising money to keep the Movement going? YOUNG: Keep the Movement going and to get to where we were trying to get to. We were trying to get a chance to sit on the buses without being interrupted or having to go to the back. When you get on a bus, just sit down, he said. Rev. Martin Luther King had told us, when you get on the bus, have a seat right there, don&#039 ; t pick no seat. Don&#039 ; t go back there in the back. If they tell you to get up, don&#039 ; t get up, so we didn&#039 ; t. I got a kick out of sitting there. HUNTLEY: You mean you sat on the buses? YOUNG: I sat right there and they get up there beside me, they would put their books down to keep you from sitting there. I take the book and put it on over (Inaudible). HUNTLEY: Oh, you mean some White person would get on the bus and sit down and, then, put their book in the seat so you could not sit down? YOUNG: Yes. HUNTLEY: So you would move the books? YOUNG: I&#039 ; d move the book and put it anywhere and I&#039 ; d just sit, right where I&#039 ; m sitting. Martin Luther had told me what to do and so I was doing it. One lady come along and she said, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t bother that nigger, that&#039 ; s one of them old Martin Luther King niggers.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Yes, I am.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested for sitting on the bus? YOUNG: No, I wasn&#039 ; t arrested, because Martin Luther King told me don&#039 ; t say a word, don&#039 ; t you hit them, just don&#039 ; t hit them and let them hit you but don&#039 ; t you hit them. Just sit there and don&#039 ; t say a word and don&#039 ; t move. HUNTLEY: Did you ever take part in any of the demonstrations? YOUNG: I went in all of the demonstrations. Every time we marched up to city hall, I marched up there. Everywhere they wanted to march. We marched to Selma, I marched down there. HUNTLEY: Tell me what some of the demonstrations were like here in Birmingham? You were at 16th Street Baptist Church? YOUNG: 16th Street Baptist Church when they put all the water on Shuttlesworth (Inaudible). HUNTLEY: You were there when Shuttlesworth was hit with water and knocked off the steps at 16th Street? YOUNG: Dave tried to go across there, my son Dave, and pick up Shuttlesworth to keep them from killing him. And, Bull Conner sitting right over there talking about &quot ; Put that water on the nigger.&quot ; He just put the water on him and Shuttlesworth go farther, farther and farther. They were just wetting him, wetting up Dave and he got so mad, he wanted to go on out there and I pulled him back. I said, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t go out there, that man say for you not to come out of there.&quot ; Dave wanted to just buck against me and go out there anyway. I say, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t you go out there and let that man kill you because I couldn&#039 ; t take it. I couldn&#039 ; t stand here and see him shoot you down.&quot ; HUNTLEY: So this is your son, now. He was real active in the Movement? YOUNG: Yes. HUNTLEY: Was that why you were involved because he was there? YOUNG: Yes. That&#039 ; s why I was there. I got started on account of him. He was going and his wife wanted to go and, then, I wanted to go. (Inaudible) soon enough. When he said, let&#039 ; s go, I&#039 ; m going to the Movement. He said, &quot ; All right, get ready, mamma.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m ready.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Did your husband ever attend any of the meetings? YOUNG: He didn&#039 ; t ever go. HUNTLEY: Why didn&#039 ; t he go? YOUNG: He didn&#039 ; t pay it no attention. He thought nothing of it. He say, &quot ; Them folk going to kill y&#039 ; all out there acting a fool.&quot ; That&#039 ; s all he would give us. They called him Uncle Tom. HUNTLEY: What did your son say about his father not participating? YOUNG: He said &quot ; All old folks ought to be dead.&quot ; HUNTLEY: &quot ; All old folks ought to be dead?&quot ; What did you say to that? YOUNG: I say, &quot ; Why you think all old folks.&quot ; I say, &quot ; Your mamma and your papa both is old. He say, &quot ; I can&#039 ; t help it.&quot ; He say, &quot ; Because all them old folks out the way, these young folks can get something done.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I tell you what, if these old folks would get themselves down there,&quot ; I&#039 ; ll tell you I said, &quot ; In the place of getting anything done (Inaudible) things done too fast and wanted to do what they wanted to do and they can&#039 ; t get it done like that. HUNTLEY: So you didn&#039 ; t agree with that statement then? YOUNG: I didn&#039 ; t agree with that statement. I loved to get out of there with them. But when they say &quot ; Ain&#039 ; t going to let nobody turn me around,&quot ; I was right there. Don&#039 ; t let (Inaudible) Bull Conner turn us around. HUNTLEY: Well, that was a song, right? How did it go? YOUNG: &quot ; Ain&#039 ; t gonna let Bull Conner turn me &#039 ; round, turn me &#039 ; round, turn me &#039 ; round. Ain&#039 ; t gonna let Bull Conner turn me &#039 ; round, I&#039 ; m gonna keep on a walking, keep on a talking, walking up the kingdom land.&quot ; I was right there. HUNTLEY: Were the children there with you? Were any of your grandchildren there, as well? YOUNG: All my grandchildren were there. Your wife and all the rest of them. HUNTLEY: Did any of them go to jail? YOUNG: Yeah, all of them went to jail. They filled up the jail so fast, they had to put them in the schoolhouse yard. One of my grandchildren (Inaudible), she went to hollering out and calling back to her mother that she wanted to get out that place because they got her out there in the rain. And they didn&#039 ; t have nowhere to put them. They put them out there in that schoolhouse yard and fence up high, they couldn&#039 ; t get over the fence. They fixed a high fence up so they couldn&#039 ; t get over the fence. HUNTLEY: That was at Fair Park, right? YOUNG: Yes. HUNTLEY: And your grandson was also in jail at the same time? YOUNG: My grandson was already in jail. They carried him off. They put him in the paddy wagon and gone. Also, Martin Luther King. HUNTLEY: But your son was also in jail? YOUNG: Yes. HUNTLEY: How long did he stay in? YOUNG: He stayed in jail about a month, a week or two, something like that. HUNTLEY: Didn&#039 ; t he refuse to come out at one point? YOUNG: One point, Martin Luther King refused to come out, because they was trying to not give him any water, not feed him and all that stuff. HUNTLEY: There was a situation once where some White ministers that were in the meeting, would you tell me about that? YOUNG: The Rabbis come from Baltimore or somewhere they said, up the country, somewhere. This place had just got burned up, bombed. HUNTLEY: 16th Street? YOUNG: No. HUNTLEY: Not a church? YOUNG: No. The place. The community, the City, got bombed not too long ago. HUNTLEY: Oklahoma City. YOUNG: That&#039 ; s it. Some of the Rabbis were from up there at Oklahoma City. And they came down to help us because we were in trouble. They said they intended to come down and help us and they wanted to hear how it go. And they wanted to sit there and see how they was treating us. And Bull Conner told them to go in there and get them damn niggers out of there. HUNTLEY: Get the Rabbis? YOUNG: Yes. He took all our Rabbis out the church, coming in there with their gattling guns on and their guns hanging on their shoulders and here they come &quot ; Get up, and let&#039 ; s go.&quot ; And they followed. They went on with the meeting. Then the man told him, he said, &quot ; All right. Bull Conner done come in here and got our people that come to help us and visited us, and have disturb our meeting. We going, all the whole church going down to city hall. That&#039 ; s where we are going to preach at today. We are going to have a meeting down there.&quot ; With our company that had come with us. HUNTLEY: Now, these people that they took out were White, right? YOUNG: Yes. All of them were White. HUNTLEY: So then the entire church... YOUNG: Bull Conner got him a crowd and he got up in his paddy wagon and say, &quot ; Hey y&#039 ; all people, go back home.&quot ; He wouldn&#039 ; t call us niggers then. He said, &quot ; All y&#039 ; all people go on back home, back to your church.&quot ; And we say, &quot ; You didn&#039 ; t let us have no peace in our church, so we&#039 ; re going down to city hall and do just what we&#039 ; re doing at the church.&quot ; HUNTLEY: So, did you go along with them? YOUNG: I was right along there with them and Bull Conner was putting the water on us as we go, wetting us up. And we went on down, anyway. (Inaudible) We was going anyway, we was stepping over the water. Everybody was going on (Inaudible) praying and singing. Singing that song about &quot ; Ain&#039 ; t gonna let nobody turn me around.&quot ; So we went on and (Inaudible) they were singing (Inaudible) &quot ; Ain&#039 ; t gonna let nobody turn me &#039 ; round.&quot ; We say, we going on, Bull Conner ain&#039 ; t gonna turn us around. So they hosed us out there putting the water on us, (Inaudible). So the pipes stopped running. All the water run out from somewhere. So, he say, &quot ; What&#039 ; s the matter with y&#039 ; all. Why don&#039 ; t you put that water on them. I said put the water on them.&quot ; One man told him, say, &quot ; I&#039 ; ll tell you where I&#039 ; m going, I&#039 ; m going back home and eat breakfast with my wife. HUNTLEY: This was a fireman? YOUNG: Yes. (Inaudible) talking about God done stopped the water. He said he was scared to mess with that water and he said, &quot ; Well, won&#039 ; t no water come out,&quot ; to Bull Conner. HUNTLEY: So the water just stopped? YOUNG: So we just stepped over the line and went on and kept going. Ain&#039 ; t gonna let nobody turn us around and we didn&#039 ; t let nobody turn us around until we got to City Hall. And we preached, prayed, shouted, sang, everything we was going to do at the church, we did it down there. HUNTLEY: Do you remember when the 16th Street Church was bombed and those little girls were killed? YOUNG: Yes, but I wasn&#039 ; t there at the time. I just heard it. I knew about them, but I wasn&#039 ; t there. They were at Sunday School and I didn&#039 ; t go to Sunday School. HUNTLEY: Did you go to another church? YOUNG: Yes. I went to Galilee Baptist Church. So, I wasn&#039 ; t there, but I went to the funeral. HUNTLEY: Oh, you were at the funeral? YOUNG: Yes. At 6th Avenue Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: What was that like? What do you remember about that day? YOUNG: The funeral? HUNTLEY: Yes. YOUNG: Oh, we had a gang of Rabbi&#039 ; s there. We had the whole back church with Rabbis in it that day. (Inaudible) they just rolled in one by one, one by one and one by one. (Inaudible) That&#039 ; s what I wanted to see. HUNTLEY: So the church was packed? YOUNG: Packed. Packed to capacity and I was right there looking down on them when they rolled them in right by me. HUNTLEY: You also participated in the Selma to Montgomery March? YOUNG: Yes. We went down there. We got us some buses to go because it was too far to walk. We wouldn&#039 ; t try to walk like they did down in Camden, where they got beat up. HUNTLEY: Viola Liuzzo? YOUNG: Yes. She got killed down there trying to help them. But we got buses and went down to the schoolhouse yard. When we got to the schoolhouse yard in the buses, we put the buses up there because we had nowhere to park them. We got off the bus and walked from there on up to George Wallace and his capital. He was standing there when we got there. He said, &quot ; You can&#039 ; t come in here.&quot ; So we couldn&#039 ; t come in there but we sit right down out there and spread us some quilts down there and took the place. Every store was closed with people looking out the windows wondering what we were doing. And, while we were walking I got so tired I wanted to give up. One of the Rabbi&#039 ; s was walking right by me and said, &quot ; Lady, you can&#039 ; t give up now, because we down here to help y&#039 ; all. You better go on down there.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Give me your coat.&quot ; He took my coat and said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ll carry it for you. Now you can hold up and walk, can&#039 ; t you? So we walked until we got to the capital and, then, we sat down. HUNTLEY: You also participated at the funeral of Dr. King in Atlanta? YOUNG: I had a heart attack down there. HUNTLEY: At the funeral? YOUNG: Trying to get to the funeral. I was in the church yard, but the crowd was so big until I couldn&#039 ; t get no further than the yard. And, I stood right there and got so tired that I wanted to fall dead, just standing out there. So I felt myself getting sick and I went over there and I see a crowd sitting on the steps over there, at somebody&#039 ; s house and I went over there and sat down on that step and blacked out right there. They had nurses watching you. When I told them who I had come with, they ran around calling for Bernice Young and Dave Young. They came and saw about me and gave me a cold drink of water. I got up from there and went down to Morehouse yard, then. HUNTLEY: So you didn&#039 ; t go to the hospital? YOUNG: No. I didn&#039 ; t go to a hospital. That nurse had doctored on me out there. The water and that drink got me back to normal. So after that, we got some, they let us have the streetcar then to ride. (Inaudible) buses and things were going down from the church to Morehouse. We got there in those buses and went on down to that Morehouse and got out and got on the yard. We didn&#039 ; t get no further than the yard there, but we could hear everything they were saying because they had those loud speakers and we could hear everything they were saying. HUNTLEY: What was Birmingham like before the Movement? YOUNG: Oh, my goodness. Before the Movement, I was having a time then. Having an over here and over there time. HUNTLEY: What do you remember most about how you related to Whites and how Whites related to you? In riding the buses did you ever go downtown to shop?YOUNG: Oh, yes. I used to go downtown all the time. You know they had a streetcar that was a double length. One end up here belongs to the White people and that end back there belongs to the Negroes. And, so, we had to get back there. If we&#039 ; re sitting in this part when the White folks on, we had to get off and stand up. If there wasn&#039 ; t any room in the back, you just stood up until you find yourself a seat. But, if a White person come in, then, and wanted to sit there, you had to get up, because the man, who&#039 ; s driving the car, would get out of his seat and come back there and ask you &quot ; Would please let so and so have this seat?&quot ; We had White folks seat. So we had to get up then and let them have the seat. But I got so when I wouldn&#039 ; t get up. HUNTLEY: You refused to get up? YOUNG: I refused to get up. HUNTLEY: Then what would happen? YOUNG: Didn&#039 ; t nothing happened. But that bus rode and that man stayed on that bus. The driver wouldn&#039 ; t try to make you do anything, but the man who used to drive the bus would come and ask you up. Well, you would pay the rider no attention if they are riding just like you, but if he come back there and tell you, &quot ; I&#039 ; ll take the board,&quot ; and it&#039 ; s sitting here and you move it back, then they want you to move back. So if he didn&#039 ; t come back, we could ride on. (Inaudible) But he come back there and move his seat back. You had to get back. HUNTLEY: You wouldn&#039 ; t refuse when the driver came back? YOUNG: Yes. We wouldn&#039 ; t refuse. We&#039 ; d get on up and get in that back and stand up until we get--Martin Luther King say &quot ; You&#039 ; re a fool. Don&#039 ; t you know you paid your money just like they paid theirs.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t get up. Sit right there and let them know that you paid the same thing they paid.&quot ; HUNTLEY: That is what they are talking about during the meetings? YOUNG: Yes. That&#039 ; s what we were fighting about and praying about. HUNTLEY: So, do you think that the Movement was successful? YOUNG: The Movement was real successful, because of all the things they didn&#039 ; t allow. Bull Conner didn&#039 ; t allow them to drink water where Negroes drink water at. Shuttlesworth and Martin Luther King move it and told them, &quot ; Ain&#039 ; t no such thing as White water and Black water.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Just drink water.&quot ; &quot ; Whenever you get some water, just drink you some water and don&#039 ; t pay that no attention.&quot ; Well, we were paying that money in the Movement to pay for that being done. HUNTLEY: To get it changed? YOUNG: Yes. Those words had come through the big men on the Supreme Court. HUNTLEY: How did you feel though before that Movement started and you would have to go down and you would have drink out of the &quot ; Colored&quot ; fountains, or you couldn&#039 ; t sit at the lunch counters to eat? YOUNG: We thought nothing of it. I didn&#039 ; t think nothing of it. You know I didn&#039 ; t know no better. HUNTLEY: You just thought that was just the way it was? YOUNG: Yes. This is the way of doing and that&#039 ; s their way of doing it and to keep from getting into an argument or something, you go on and do like the rules say do. But, after we paid a lot of money to the Supreme Court, they say you don&#039 ; t have to do like that. When they told me you don&#039 ; t have to do like that, well, if you had to pay so much for them to make it legal, and they did. HUNTLEY: So the Supreme Court, obviously what you&#039 ; re doing, you&#039 ; re talking about the Supreme Court and Brown v. Board of Education who changes the school system, for instance. Who talks about separate but equal was illegal? YOUNG: Yes. (Inaudible) Colored children (Inaudible) to school. Bull Conner and George Wallace didn&#039 ; t like that at all. No Black and White going to school together. George Wallace said it wasn&#039 ; t going to happen. No Blacks was going to no school with White folks. HUNTLEY: &quot ; Segregation now, Segregation forever.&quot ; YOUNG: &quot ; Segregation now, segregation forever.&quot ; And he stood in the school house door and said, &quot ; You ain&#039 ; t coming by here.&quot ; (Inaudible) when they tried to go to Tuscaloosa. HUNTLEY: The University of Alabama? YOUNG: Yes. George Wallace got in that door, but a man probably about this much taller than him said, &quot ; Would you step aside?&quot ; &quot ; Oh, yeah, I&#039 ; ll do this.&quot ; And he stepped aside. I remember him saying, &quot ; Any nigger come in here he going to go over my dead body.&quot ; But when that man come by there he didn&#039 ; t say anything. I looked up and got something and stepped aside. HUNTLEY: His name was Katzenbach and he represented the Federal Government. YOUNG: Yes, that&#039 ; s his name. He was so big and tall, he say he was looking ugly and things. He say, &quot ; Would you please step aside?&quot ; He say, &quot ; Yes, sir.&quot ; HUNTLEY: So do you think that Wallace was just a show? YOUNG: Just a show. Trying to bluff somebody and make somebody do like they was doing. But, he didn&#039 ; t fool around with that man. He didn&#039 ; t mess with that man. That man just told him to step aside. And that man went on to school and right through that door where he was going. HUNTLEY: You have obviously had a wide a varied experience in the civil rights movement. At that time you were in your 60s, during the &#039 ; 63 demonstrations. Now, you&#039 ; re in your 90s, how does it feel to have lived through all of that and to see the changes that have taken place in Birmingham? YOUNG: Oh, I feel good. And being the age that I am I just wonder how did I come through? How did I get through. All that stuff I had to come through. What these people are going through now, I&#039 ; ve been through it. I&#039 ; ve come through what they&#039 ; re going through. I thank God I&#039 ; m here. All I can say now is thank you, Jesus, thank you, Jesus. We used to have a woman at the Movement who used to say, &quot ; Thank God for Jesus.&quot ; And, they had to come and get her and it took six men to take her out. She shout so much, until I spoke one day. I seen her outside I hadn&#039 ; t got to the church. She was on her way in and I was on my way in and I said, &quot ; Oh, God, there go that old shouting lady.&quot ; What did I say that for. She said, &quot ; You better wish you were a shouting lady.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Oh, I wasn&#039 ; t talking about you.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Was she older than you? YOUNG: No. She wasn&#039 ; t older than me, she was younger than me. But she was old, just not as old as me. But she is something about the age of my daughter-in-law. HUNTLEY: Were you older than most of the people that were there? YOUNG: There were so many people that was that, but I was in the older ones. HUNTLEY: Were there other people in your community that were involved in the Movement? YOUNG: Everyone just about you could find, unless he was a drinker or he loved to run around and drink and didn&#039 ; t care nothing about nothing just drinking and having a time. They didn&#039 ; t pay the movement any attention. HUNTLEY: So your church was involved? YOUNG: The church was involved. All the deacons and members of the church was involved and they could have the meeting at their church at any time. HUNTLEY: If I were to ask you about different individuals, you remember Rev. John Porter, what do you remember about him? YOUNG: Rev. Porter was real nice and he really loved the Movement. But his church didn&#039 ; t want him involved. Shuttlesworth had gotten his church bombed up and will come over there and get their church bombed up. He didn&#039 ; t want them there, to stay away from our church. And Rev. Porter say, &quot ; Yeah, they coming all right.&quot ; HUNTLEY: So he would allow the Movement to come to 6th Avenue? YOUNG: Yes. (Inaudible) the girls wouldn&#039 ; t got killed if they had their funeral there. But that stopped all of that talking about they weren&#039 ; t coming there, because Rev. Porter was all for it and was all with them at every meeting. He said, &quot ; My people don&#039 ; t even want me over here, but I&#039 ; m over here.&quot ; HUNTLEY: What about the Woods Brothers? YOUNG: The Woods Brothers were active in it, the daddy and the two brothers. Calvin Woods, Abraham Woods and I don&#039 ; t know the daddy&#039 ; s name, but all of them were preachers. HUNTLEY: Who was the person that did a lot of the songs, do you remember Carleton Reese? YOUNG: Yes. Carleton Reese was the piano man. He played the music for us and he would do all the singing and he would just sing whatever he want to sing. He could just make him up a song and sing it. Something about (Inaudible) Bull Conner and they would go right along with him. HUNTLEY: In closing, did you enjoy the Movement or were you afraid? YOUNG: I enjoyed it so much until I wouldn&#039 ; t be afraid. I would be afraid if those White folks come in with all those machines and lights and things in your face and taking pictures and all that kind of stuff. I didn&#039 ; t have sense enough to be scared of that, I was so enthused over Martin Luther King and what they were doing, until I didn&#039 ; t pay them any attention. But they were back there catching every word they said and everything. Martin wouldn&#039 ; t pay them any attention. He tell them, &quot ; I want my freedom and I want it now.&quot ; HUNTLEY: And that became sort of a slogan for the Movement? YOUNG: Yes. And, when we were getting on the end (Inaudible) Martin Luther King so much and kept up with him, try to keep up with him, try to get a chance to kill him a long time ago. And he said something or other about over the mountain where, &quot ; I might not get there with you, but I want y&#039 ; all to keep on going. Just keep on going.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Walk, if they won&#039 ; t let you walk, crawl.&quot ; He said, &quot ; If you don&#039 ; t crawl, slide on in there, just so you keep going.&quot ; HUNTLEY: How did you feel when Martin Luther King was killed? YOUNG: Well, I was standing there at the ironing board and my husband said, &quot ; That must have been your man, you carrying on so.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Nothing about no man, I just love him so because he was teaching us so much.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Oh, God, that couldn&#039 ; t be Martin Luther King. That&#039 ; s the main man. They killed the poor man.&quot ; I had a fit. I couldn&#039 ; t iron any more. I threw those clothes away. I was just sick. I said, &quot ; Well, Jesus, what are we going to do now?&quot ; But I knew Shuttlesworth and Rev. Garner and all those guys were back there, we were going to keep on going, just like he said. So we did. HUNTLEY: Well, I want to thank you for taking your time out and coming and sitting with us. Your experience has been one that has really been amazing. I appreciate it. We want to again say, &quot ; Welcome back home to Birmingham.&quot ; Come back again. Thank you for coming. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ESYoung1995.xml ESYoung1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Emma Smith Young Description An account of the resource Emma Smith Young discusses participating in the Selma to Montgomery March after being very involved in the Movement in Birmingham. She was arrested during a Birmingham demonstration and attended Dr. King's funeral in D.C. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950920C Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-09-20 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/4bd73484558509094e9b5ce6a118c620.jpg 9e6055e6359e8ba6dcdb84d26f9643b2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ethel Weatherspoon OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=EWeatherspoon1998.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 July 21, 1998 Ethel Weatherspoon Interviewed on July 21, 1998 19980721W 0:25:55 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Lessie Dingler Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Bombing--A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham City Jail (Birmingham, Ala.) 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 Ethel Weatherspoon Horace Huntley Video 1:|20(8)|38(2)|61(1)|91(2)|120(3)|130(10)|158(6)|178(4)|189(6)|207(6)|231(12)|245(10)|267(13)|283(8)|304(2)|326(6)|348(6)|374(3)|401(5)|420(3)|447(10)|459(6)|472(4)|500(16)|504(13) 0 https://youtu.be/GMrRp32YStU YouTube video English 4 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Ms. Ethel Weatherspoon for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute’s Oral History Project. I’m Dr. Horace Huntley, we’re presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is July 21, 1998. Ms. Weatherspoon, I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule and welcome to the Institute. 33.5161, -86.8145 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 43 Family Background You were born in Birmingham, right? Ethel Weatherspoon discusses and her parents' educational background and growing up with 7 siblings. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Columbus (Ga.) ; Phenix City (Ala.) ; Russell County (Ala.) ; Selma (Ala.) 157 Early Education You started first grade at Lincoln? Ethel Weatherspoon discusses attending her elementary and high school in Birmingham. May Day Hardee's ; Immaculata High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Lincoln Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 335 Community Background and Segregation One of the issues that always come up is segregation in Birmingham. What was segregation like? Ethel Weatherspoon discusses what segregation was like in Birmingham and Phenix City, Alabama growing up. African Americans--Segregation ; Gambling ; Racial Violence Birmingham (Ala.) ; Columbus (Ga.) ; Phenix City (Ala.) 431 Getting Married and Having a Family What did you do after you stopped going to school for a while? Ethel Weatherspoon discusses how she adopted girls from people she knew who were not able to take care of them. Court--Adoption--Custody Zion (Ala.) 581 Joining The Movement Oh, I see. When the movement started to develop...were you active in those beginning days in the movement? Ethel Weatherpoon demonstrated and a policeman hit her in the stomach then tried to arrest her. Mass Meetings ; Paddy Wagon ; Police brutality--United States Civil Rights Movement--Demonstrations 754 Going to Jail and Attending Trial Oh, ok, so they put you in a patrol car. So, how long were you in jail? Ethel Weatherspoon explains going to trial and being in the city jail during the bombing of the A.G. Gaston Motel. Police brutality--United States Bombing--A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement--Demonstrations ; Civil Rights Movement--Trial ; Hall, Peter ; Hardee's ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Thomas, R. Roosevelt 1058 Being in Jail Simultaneously with Her Son You jerked him off of there. Well, when your son went to jail. Were you in there at the same time? Ethel Weatherspoon talks about how she and her son were in the Birmingham City Jail at the same time. African American Youth--Jail ; Family Birmingham City Jail (Birmingham, Ala.) 1101 Ethel and Her Husband's Profession What kind of work were you doing at the time? Ethel Weatherspoon talks about what she and her husband did for a living at the time. African American Housewife ; Truck Driver 1137 Impact of The Movement What do you think was the importance of what was happening during the demonstrations and all? Ethel Weatherspoon talks about how her son would participate in the demonstrations as a kid. African American police Bull Connor--Public Safety Commissioner--Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil Rights Movement--Demonstrations ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Lincoln Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Thomas, R. Roosevelt 1325 Registering to Vote Are you a registered voter? Ethel Weatherspoon went to Southside in Birmingham to sign up to vote. Voter registration--United States Southside (Birmingham, Ala.) 1409 Recalling the 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing Do you remember when they bombed the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church? Ethel Weatherspoon discusses how she was at home when she heard about the 16th Baptist Church Bombing. Change 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 1541 Conclusion of Interview Ms. Weatherspoon I want to thank you for coming out. We really appreciate you taking this time out. Interview concludes. Oral History Ethel Weatherspoon discusses growing up in a big family before getting involved in the Movement. She and her son spent time in jail for demonstrating. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Ethel Weatherspoon for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I&#039 ; m Dr. Horace Huntley, we&#039 ; re presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is July 21, 1998. Ms. Weatherspoon, I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule and welcome to the Institute. WEATHERSPOON: I&#039 ; m glad to be here. HUNTLEY: You were born in Birmingham, right? WEATHERSPOON: Correct. HUNTLEY: Where were your parents from? WEATHERSPOON: My mother, she&#039 ; s from Phenix City, Russell County. My father, he was from Selma, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Did they meet here in Birmingham? WEATHERSPOON: Well, as far as I know, yes. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have? WEATHERSPOON: Well, I had seven brothers and sisters altogether but there&#039 ; s just two of us now living. Two girls. HUNTLEY: There were seven of you. Were you the oldest? Were you the baby? WEATHERSPOON: I was next to the oldest sister and had an older brother. HUNTLEY: You were the third child, ok. Did your mother and father have a lot of schooling? How much schooling did they have? WEATHERSPOON: My mother she mostly was a teacher in Phenix City. HUNTLEY: She taught in Phenix City? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did she go to college? WEATHERSPOON: Yes, she did. HUNTLEY: Where did she go? Do you know where she went? WEATHERSPOON: I think it was somewhere in Columbus, Georgia. Her mother had bought some property in Georgia. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your mother and your father do? WEATHERSPOON: Well, my mother did most like housework. My daddy, he just did different odd jobs. HUNTLEY: You started first grade at Lincoln? WEATHERSPOON: Lincoln School. HUNTLEY: What was that like? Do you remember starting school? WEATHERSPOON: Yeah, I do. It was real nice. We used to have a [inaudible] May Day. It was real good time. HUNTLEY: Do you remember any of your teachers from Lincoln? WEATHERSPOON: I remember Ms. Chairman, she was the music teacher. She died not too long ago. HUNTLEY: What community did you grow up in? WEATHERSPOON: Right here by the [inaudible]. Over there on 4th Avenue between 10th and 11th Street. HUNTLEY: Oh, yeah. WEATHERSPOON: Over where Hardee&#039 ; s is. HUNTLEY: Where Hardee&#039 ; s is now? WEATHERSPOON: Right, they tore the house down and built a highway there. HUNTLEY: This was a big community then at that time? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: You were able then to walk to Lincoln? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: After Lincoln, where did you go? WEATHERSPOON: Immaculate, that&#039 ; s on Southside on 14th Street. HUNTLEY: So, why didn&#039 ; t you go to Parker? WEATHERSPOON: Well, I just, I don&#039 ; t know. I just didn&#039 ; t like Parker in general. I just went to Immaculata. HUNTLEY: Immaculata was a smaller school. WEATHERSPOON: Yeah, it was smaller. HUNTLEY: So, how did you get to Immaculata? WEATHERSPOON: Ride the bus on 4th Avenue to go to town. Catch the bus, ride and get off on 14th Street South. HUNTLEY: Oh, yeah. Ok. So, Immaculata, it was on the Southside. WEATHERSPOON: Right. HUNTLEY: You left the Northside to go to the Southside. Did many of your friends in your neighborhood did they go to Immaculata too? WEATHERSPOON: No, they went to Parker. HUNTLEY: So, were you the only one that went over to Immaculata? WEATHERSPOON: As far as I know. HUNTLEY: Tell me what was it like growing up in Birmingham during those times? WEATHERSPOON: Well, it was real fun. We used to, the pastor used to take us on hay rides, you know. He used to take us on hay rides. It was real nice. HUNTLEY: One of the issues that always come up is segregation in Birmingham. What was segregation like? WEATHERSPOON: Well, it was pretty rough. We couldn&#039 ; t stop at the stand or anything. HUNTLEY: You couldn&#039 ; t go in and get something to eat and sit down and eat it. WEATHERSPOON: No. HUNTLEY: What about the, riding the buses? WEATHERSPOON: Well, it was rough. I used to catch the bus to go and see my grandmother. They would always tell you to go and sit in the back. HUNTLEY: Was Phenix City the same way? WEATHERSPOON: It was pretty, you know after Patterson got killed it started getting rough. HUNTLEY: It was, they did a lot of gambling down there. WEATHERSPOON: They called it Little Las Vegas. HUNTLEY: Did you spend a lot of time down there? WEATHERSPOON: Yes, on the weekends I would go and visit my grandmother and stay with her. HUNTLEY: So, you then became familiar with Phenix City and Columbus, Georgia which was right across the river. WEATHERSPOON: Right. HUNTLEY: My aunt and uncle live in Columbus so I know a little about that area myself. So, did you finish high school? WEATHERSPOON: No, I didn&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: What did you do after you stopped going to school for a while? WEATHERSPOON: Well, after that. . . HUNTLEY: Did you get married? WEATHERSPOON: Yes and I was taking little girls&#039 ; children and raise them. I never did have one by birth. So, I had all these children I raise. HUNTLEY: How many children did you raise? WEATHERSPOON: Seven of them. HUNTLEY: You said you would get them from their mothers? WEATHERSPOON: I would raise their mothers and then get the children they had. HUNTLEY: Were the children that you raised were they relatives? WEATHERSPOON: No. [inaudible] So, we went to family court and I got custody of them in family court. HUNTLEY: So, that&#039 ; s when you got custody of all the children? WEATHERSPOON: Seven of them and then I started adopting. HUNTLEY: So, you&#039 ; ve been rather busy these years. WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: How many do you have at home now? WEATHERSPOON: My daughter right there. She has two children of her own. I got her from her mother. The court took her from her mother. I went and got custody of her. HUNTLEY: So, is she still living with you? WEATHERSPOON: No, she lives up in Zion in an apartment. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. When the movement started to develop...were you active in those beginning days in the movement? WEATHERSPOON: No, we would go. They were having meetings at certain churches and I used to go down there. HUNTLEY: You attended those mass meetings? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: What was it like? What was a mass meeting like? WEATHERSPOON: Well, it was mostly they were discussing about different [inaudible]. The different things they wanted you to do and what would help us. When we started demonstrating my son he was in it. They took him to city. HUNTLEY: So, your son was arrested during the demonstrations? WEATHERSPOON: Right. HUNTLEY: You were arrested also? WEATHERSPOON: Right. HUNTLEY: What was the circumstances of your arrest? What happened? WEATHERSPOON: I was going down there. They were having like a program. It was East of 7th and they were already demonstrating down there on 6th Avenue and 11th Street North by the [inaudible] Church. I was going in there to get here. So, while we were going the police were on a motorcycle and passed us. I happened to be standing on the corner and by the time he passed by me I turned around and he hit me in the stomach. I said, &quot ; You hit me in my stomach.&quot ; So, he grabbed his and said, &quot ; You&#039 ; re going to be one of those smart niggers.&quot ; So when he grabbed me I reached and grabbed him. So, we then went to scuffling. Then some cops came and put me in the patrol wagon. So, we got to scuffling there. They then put me in a police car and took me to the city jail. While I was there the police officer that me and him got into it, he was there. HUNTLEY: The one that you first got into it with? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: What did he have to say to you then? WEATHERSPOON: He was trying to tell somebody that I had broke his arm. I hadn&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: So, when they arrested you were you the only one in the car? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. They tried to put me in a patrol car but they couldn&#039 ; t so they took me in a police car. HUNTLEY: They tried to put you in a paddy wagon? WEATHERSPOON: Paddy wagon. HUNTLEY: But they couldn&#039 ; t get you in the paddy wagon? WEATHERSPOON: No. That&#039 ; s why we were scuffling real hard. HUNTLEY: Oh, ok, so they put you in a patrol car. So, how long were you in jail? WEATHERSPOON: Well, I stayed in there for a little about two weeks. A friend of mine that belongs to the church, you might have heard about him. His name was Roosevelt Thomas. He was working with the movement. So, my husband was trying to get me out. So, he took him to the movement and gave him whatever he couldn&#039 ; t charge they paid him. They told me to come back to the movement. So, when I had my first trial Shuttlesworth he was helping me with it. HUNTLEY: Rev. Shuttlesworth? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: What was it like being in jail? What was that two weeks like? WEATHERSPOON: Well, I thought me and the police were going to get into it again because they kept sending me to different parts. They would ask me different questions over at the jail. HUNTLEY: What kind of questions were they asking you? WEATHERSPOON: Did I think I what I was supposed to get for jumping on an officer. I said, well, he hit me first. So, those different kinds of things. They kept saying that I was being smart. So, the night of the bombing. . . HUNTLEY: The motel? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. I was in city jail. HUNTLEY: You were in the city jail then? WEATHERSPOON: Right. That&#039 ; s when they made my bond and I got out of jail. HUNTLEY: Then you went back to the movement? WEATHERSPOON: They brought me home. When I got home the police were on all the corners. [inaudible]. They didn&#039 ; t want anybody walking the street. So, I stayed in. HUNTLEY: Where were you living then? WEATHERSPOON: Right there on 23rd. HUNTLEY: Where Hardee&#039 ; s is now? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, then while you were in jail did they attempt to beat you or anything of that nature? WEATHERSPOON: No because [inaudible]. The people that worked in the jail. A couple of people that know me had gotten in touch with my husband. They told him that they were scared that they were going to do something to me. So, that&#039 ; s when I think they went to the movement and got Peter Hall for me. HUNTLEY: So, Peter Hall was your lawyer? WEATHERSPOON: Right. HUNTLEY: Did you go to court? WEATHERSPOON: Yeah, I went to court and they fined me 180 days and five counts. HUNTLEY: Did you have to serve any of that time? WEATHERSPOON: No because they must have made me a bond because I was at home one day and they called me to the phone from the ladies house next door. I went in and had to go to court. [inaudible] When I got up there they called to the court room the lawyer was talking to the District Attorney. They said I can get you off of the five counts which I was charged. I never had to serve one. HUNTLEY: So, you then were free and didn&#039 ; t have to deal with that anymore. WEATHERSPOON: No. HUNTLEY: You said your son was arrested. WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: This was during the demonstrations? WEATHERSPOON: Right. HUNTLEY: When you were arrested you were going by to pick up one of your children? WEATHERSPOON: [inaudible] HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s when the policeman came by and hit you. WEATHERSPOON: He was on a motorcycle. By me turning around that&#039 ; s when he hit me in the stomach. HUNTLEY: He was still on the motorcycle? WEATHERSPOON: Yeah, when me and him got to scuffling. HUNTLEY: Did you drag him off the motorcycle? WEATHERSPOON: I jerked him. HUNTLEY: You jerked him off of there. Well, when your son went to jail. Were you in there at the same time? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Was he at the city? WEATHERSPOON: Yes, at the city. HUNTLEY: Did you know that he was in jail? WEATHERSPOON: Yeah, I knew that he was in there. HUNTLEY: Did any of your other children get involved? WEATHERSPOON: My daughter was but I don&#039 ; t know if she went to jail. She was in that fight. I don&#039 ; t think she went to jail. HUNTLEY: What kind of work were you doing at the time? WEATHERSPOON: Nothing but just housewife. HUNTLEY: You were keeping the kids. That&#039 ; s plenty of work, wasn&#039 ; t it? WEATHERSPOON: Yes it was. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your husband do? WEATHERSPOON: He drove a truck. HUNTLEY: In the city or open road? WEATHERSPOON: He was in town and then they moved out and drove across country. HUNTLEY: All over the country? WEATHERSPOON: Yeah. HUNTLEY: So, he would be gone for days? WEATHERSPOON: Yeah. HUNTLEY: What do you think was the importance of what was happening during the demonstrations and all? WEATHERSPOON: They were saying, you know, about that song we used to sing, &quot ; We Shall Overcome&quot ; . I think Martin Luther King was supposed to be at the church after the program. There were so many demonstrations they just couldn&#039 ; t handle it. HUNTLEY: Did you ever demonstrate? WEATHERSPOON: No. That was just one time. HUNTLEY: Did you approve of your son being involved? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did he come and ask you or did he just get involved? WEATHERSPOON: He told me he was going. I told him to stay out of town because they were spraying all that water. I told him to stay out of town because I didn&#039 ; t know what Bull Conner might have them to do. So, I told him to stay around close by home and the church. HUNTLEY: Where was he in school? WEATHERSPOON: He went to Lincoln. HUNTLEY: Was he at Lincoln at that time? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: He was in elementary school? WEATHERSPOON: Right. HUNTLEY: Were there others in your community that were involved? WEATHERSPOON: Roosevelt Thomas he was real involved in it. He sung for them all the time and went to different things with them. HUNTLEY: Right. WEATHERSPOON: Roosevelt was a good singer. He would come by my house and tell me he was going to a different church where they were having the meetings. HUNTLEY: Right. How do you think the movement changed Birmingham? WEATHERSPOON: Well, it a good job doing what they did. I look at so much that they did. I just feel [inaudible]. It&#039 ; s still not what it could be. I know about some of the colored officers you know they have kind of a bad attitude towards some of the colored people. HUNTLEY: You mean today? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. You know they get by [inaudible]. Instead of sitting down and talking with them. It&#039 ; s got me scared that one of them might get killed, you know. HUNTLEY: Where do you live now? WEATHERSPOON: Right there on 12th Street. HUNTLEY: Are you a registered voter? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Do you remember taking the test for it? Do you remember when you first started? WEATHERSPOON: When I first signed up to vote. You know [inaudible] on Southside? HUNTLEY: Yes. WEATHERSPOON: A lady was over there signing in and I signed up with one of them. They were over there. HUNTLEY: I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule to come and talk with us. What we&#039 ; re just trying to do is get pictures from people that were here and involved and seeing how we can develop this big picture of what Birmingham was like. WEATHERSPOON: A big nice town but it was rough. HUNTLEY: Do you remember when they bombed the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Where were you then? WEATHERSPOON: I was at home. HUNTLEY: Do you remember hearing the bomb? WEATHERSPOON: There&#039 ; s a boy at my house now who was with his grandmother said he was in that church when it got bombed. HUNTLEY: Is that right? He&#039 ; s at your house? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Is it one of the children that you adopted? WEATHERSPOON: No, he&#039 ; s just a good friend of mine that visits my house all the time. HUNTLEY: Those were some tough times. WEATHERSPOON: Yes they were. One of those girls that got killed her brother comes to my house all the time. I think it was McNair. Her brother is at my house all the time. HUNTLEY: Is that right? WEATHERSPOON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Is there a lot of discussion about the movement? WEATHERSPOON: You always hear good words about the movement. I don&#039 ; t ever hear any bad words. HUNTLEY: Changing the city for the better. WEATHERSPOON: Yes, it is. HUNTLEY: Ms. Weatherspoon I want to thank you for coming out. We really appreciate you taking this time out. WEATHERSPOON: I&#039 ; m glad I can. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=EWeatherspoon1998.xml EWeatherspoon1998.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ethel Weatherspoon Description An account of the resource Ethel Weatherspoon discusses growing up in a big family before getting involved in the Movement. She and her son spent time in jail for demonstrating. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19980721W Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Bombing--A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) Birmingham City Jail (Birmingham, Ala.) 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1998-07-21 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/8a1e4e012cb4f03277a4aa1a72195b06.jpg c83d74385d39c33ecbdcbca16fb2b06a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Flora Washington Smith OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=FWSmith1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Greater Temple Missionary Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 September 27, 1995 Flora Washington Smith 19950927S 0:48:53 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Greater Temple Missionary Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Flora Washington Smith Horace Huntley Video 1:|12(4)|30(11)|49(3)|60(1)|69(6)|79(4)|98(6)|110(2)|132(2)|141(4)|161(9)|170(10)|183(5)|198(13)|210(11)|220(7)|232(5)|248(4)|252(8)|272(6)|281(16)|303(5)|303(7)|335(17)|344(9)|356(13)|371(9)|410(4)|424(7)|437(6)|448(2)|468(11)|480(9)|497(7)|506(10)|522(7)|540(10)|551(5)|551(6)|560(12)|568(8)|575(3)|579(13)|597(5)|607(8)|612(4)|623(2)|636(13) 0 https://youtu.be/6lc2OBd1Hzo YouTube video English 24 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Flora Smith for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project Flora Smith is introduced Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 53 Family Background What part of the state are you from? Where were you born? Smith talks about how she was born in Hale County, Alabama and that her parents passed away when she was nine years old. Afterwards, she lived in Tuscaloosa County with foster parents and had foster brothers along with a close sister. Bessemer (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Hale County (Ala.) ; Overton (Ala.) ; Tuscaloosa County (Ala.) African American families ; Foster family 751 Birmingham Community &amp ; Segregation Tell me, what part of Birmingham did you live in? Smith describes how the Birmingham church community gave her a social outlet when segregation in Birmingham affected her experiences with public transportation, dining, and entertainment venues. African American churches ; Segregation in transportation--United States African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1162 Getting Involved with the Movement At what point did you get involved with the Civil Rights Movement? Smith describes attending some of the first meetings organized by the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. Birmingham Baptist College (Birmingham, Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Sardis Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights 1288 Call to Action from Mass Meetings In your activity with the Movement, you went to many mass meetings. Smith describes listening to the mass meetings conducted by Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth, and how his preaching moved her to participate in a march to 16th Street Baptist Church. 16th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Mass meetings 1646 Arrest and Spending a Week in Jail And so you were arrested? Smith talks about her experience of being arrested and held in the city jail. She and the others who were arrested at the time were there for a week. King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Arrest--United States ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 2033 Social Consequences from Involvement in the Movement After you were released from jail, did you go back to the meetings? Smith recounts that after her arrest, she received criticism from people in her church community, but she continued to support the Movement by participating in the march from Selma to Montgomery in 1965. Mass meetings Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) 2280 Continuing Education And then you decided to complete your education. Smith describes how she spent time in Haiti as a missionary before returning home to begin nurse training at Bessemer State Technical School. However, she was turned down due to her age. Afterwards, she attended Miles College and graduated with a a degree in English when she was 77 years old. Bessemer State Technical College ; Haiti ; Miles College ; Missionary life stories ; Smith, Nelson, 1930-2006 Adult learners, education, and training 2684 Being a Missionary at Miles College I was a missionary here. Smith talks about how she felt that she was a missionary at Miles College and a positive role model for all the students who attended classes and called her &quot ; Grandma.&quot ; African American college students ; Gibson, James A. ; Greater Temple Missionary Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Miles College 2888 Conclusion of the Interview Thank you, Mrs. Smith for spending time with us today. Conclusion of the Interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Oral History Flora Washington Smith discusses getting involved with ACMHR from the earliest meetings. She participated in the Selma to Montgomery March, even after spending a week in jail for demonstrating in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Flora Smith for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is September 27, 1995. Thank you, Mrs. Smith for coming out to be with us today to give us information about your history and the history of Birmingham. I appreciate you taking time out to do that for us today. I want to start by asking you some general questions. What part of the state are you from? Where were you born? SMITH: Hale County. HUNTLEY: Hale County, Alabama.You lived in Hale County and where did your parents move to from Hale County, to Tuscaloosa County, was it? SMITH: My father was away.He was sick and away from home at the time that my mother moved to Tuscaloosa County, about 1917. HUNTLEY: Was your father a farmer? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did your mother work outside of the home? SMITH: My mother did farm work before leaving Hale County, and domestic work in Yolanda. HUNTLEY: When were you born, what year? SMITH: November 23, 1909. HUNTLEY: You moved to Birmingham around what year?How old were you? SMITH: Well, I was an adult when I moved to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Then, let&#039 ; s just back up a bit and talk just briefly about your schooling.You became orphaned at an early age? SMITH: Yes, both my father and mother died in 1918, four months apart. HUNTLEY: You were about nine years old at the time.Who did you live with after that? SMITH: I lived with a Rev. and Mrs. Van Horn.They were distant relatives. HUNTLEY: That was where? SMITH: That was in Tuscaloosa County at a place called Cornerville Junction. HUNTLEY: In Tuscaloosa County were you in school at the time? SMITH: I started school that same year my mother died, at a place called Willows, which is not on the map. HUNTLEY: That is in Tuscaloosa County? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your school? SMITH: Well, I remember I could read very well and I must have been in an advance class because I started off in the second grade. About 1919, we moved to Bessemer. My foster father, a railroad man, began to be what you called &quot ; rolled&quot ; . HUNTLEY: Rolled from his job? SMITH: Yes.We then moved from Bessemer to a place called Valley Creek.And I didn&#039 ; t start school there.We left there and we moved to Sumpter, Alabama and we moved before I could get into school there.We moved back to Yolanda, that&#039 ; s not on the map either. HUNTLEY: Is that in Tuscaloosa County? SMITH: Yes. I did get to go to school there. Somehow I was in the fourth grade by the time I got back to Yolanda. We stayed in Yolanda maybe a year. But, in 1922 we moved I was in the to a place called Rock Castle. Some called it Davis Creek and some called it Rock Castle. HUNTLEY: Is that still Tuscaloosa County? SMITH: That&#039 ; s still Tuscaloosa County.In 1922 my foster father had a mine accident.He lived two days. HUNTLEY: So he worked in the coal mines? SMITH: Yes.I think I had enrolled in school when that accident occurred. HUNTLEY: Did you have brothers and sisters? SMITH: I had one sister, we came up in the same home together.I had two brothers, they came up in another foster home and I had another brother who came up in another home. So we came up in three different foster homes. HUNTLEY: Were they in the same general area? SMITH: No. HUNTLEY: Did you lose contact with any of them? SMITH: My baby brother I lost contact with him from about 1920 to about 1927.His foster father took him to Detroit, Michigan. But I did keep in contact with the other two brothers. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see.You lived with a brother and they lived with a sister? SMITH: My sister&#039 ; s age is one year and six months was reared along with three foster brothers. HUNTLEY: So you did have the contact with them? SMITH: Yes.So in 1922 the foster father died and these brothers knew nothing but mining and they began moving around.They left Rock Castle and moved to a place called Pritchett. HUNTLEY: Is this Pritchett in south Alabama? SMITH: It was out from Warrior. HUNTLEY: Now, you are saying &quot ; the brothers.&quot ; These are brothers that lived with you after the death of my foster father I lived with his widowand his three sons. SMITH: The brothers I lived with and their mother. HUNTLEY: Then you stayed with them? SMITH: I stayed with them.Both my sister, age one and a half and I were reared along with three foster brothers after the death of our mother. HUNTLEY: As they moved, you moved along with them? SMITH: Were they your guardians at the time? SMITH: They were.The mother and those brothers.After Pritchett, we moved to Overton, Alabama probably, in &#039 ; 24 or &#039 ; 23 I went to school there from &#039 ; 24 to about 1926.But I kind of rebelled against going to school because of the fact that they made no effort in particular to send me to school. Education was not a priority to them.The missionary society bought my books that last year and I just thought that was too much. HUNTLEY: You thought the books cost too much? SMITH: No.I thought that in as much as I cooked and cleaned for these foster brothers, that they should have at least been able to buy books and shoes for me to wear to school.I rebelled. HUNTLEY: You rebelled against them?So what did you do in your rebellion? SMITH: Well, eventually I came back to Bessemer.I had an aunt living and I stayed there with her for about nine months and went to school there.I wound up in about the 7th or 8th grade.I think I was promoted to the 8th grade. HUNTLEY: After that did you go on to start working? SMITH: I started working. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did you do? SMITH: Wash dishes in the cafes and things like that. HUNTLEY: At what age did you get married? SMITH: I was 22. HUNTLEY: You were here in Birmingham at the time I assume.Tell me about the man that you married. SMITH: Well, the man that I marriedwas a good man, he adopted my son, when he was 6 years old.And my husband became a Baptist preacher in 1938 and we enrolled in the Easonian Baptist Seminary in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: The two of you enrolled? SMITH: Yes.We studied in that school a number of years.He went to Tuskegee and took some classes at Tuskegee.I enrolled in the Birmingham Baptist College in the junior high school department when my son was 21 years old.I finished senior high school and received a diploma also in Christian Education I was 42.We did a lot of traveling because my husband became an evangelist as well as a pastor. HUNTLEY: Tell me what part of Birmingham did you live in? SMITH: Smithfield and Enon Ridge. HUNTLEY: What was the community like at that time? SMITH: Well, I can&#039 ; t tell you too much about the community because I worked all the time.I did domestic work.Work had been hard to get.We came through that 1920 crash and things were difficult along about that time.So, I worked all my life and I stayed a great deal to myself.I did not mingle a lot with the people of the community.Having lived in so many unpleasant environments made me want to keep to myself and family. HUNTLEY: Did the community itself, were you affiliated with a church at that particular time? SMITH: Yes.We joined the church in 1931. We were baptized together. HUNTLEY: Did that give you another outlet? SMITH: Yes, I became more social-minded towards the people in the church. HUNTLEY: What was Birmingham like at that time?We&quot ; re talking about the early 30s. SMITH: It was segregated.That was one reason why my son left because of the conditions that existed there.It was during the second world war that my son became a Merchant Seaman. HUNTLEY: Do you remember any specific incidents where segregation affected you and your family? SMITH: I cannot exactlyIt would take me too long to remember too many things about the segregated style of life. HUNTLEY: The whole era of segregation is one where it basically subjugated Black people to a position of.... SMITH: We couldn&#039 ; t ride, for instance the bus, there was a partition between &quot ; us&quot ; and &quot ; them.&quot ; We had to ride in the back and they ride in the front and there was a board that would be moved up when there was less White people on there. But, when they got on there, that board had to be moved back, I remember that.And, of course I remember the segregated eating and all that.You couldn&#039 ; t go to these places and eat and enjoy ourselves as we do now. HUNTLEY: What about downtown, the movie theaters? SMITH: Oh, I never went to an integrated movie. HUNTLEY: Did you go to the theaters on 4th Avenue? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: That part of Birmingham, at that time, was rather vibrant. It had a lot of people in that area and you had Black businesses and people consistently shopped in those businesses, went to the movie theaters.This was Black Birmingham.What do you remember about that ,area? SMITH: Just right off hand I just cannot remember all together. HUNTLEY: Okay.Let&#039 ; s move up a little bit further. SMITH: One thing about that.My son, he always wondered what was going in the White church that was not going on in the Black church.He wondered why is it that I can&#039 ; t go into this White church. HUNTLEY: What did you tell him? SMITH: I don&#039 ; t remember what I told him.I really didn&#039 ; t have the answer.He did say one time &quot ; If I ever preach, I will be preaching to a White congregation&quot ; .I remember him telling me that. HUNTLEY: Is he a preacher now? SMITH: No.But, the church that he worked for, for 22 years, is an Episcopalian Church, one of the oldest churches that was established in the United States of America and he had a lot of contact with those people in that church .I think I gave Mrs. Hendricks a picture of him in this 275 year history of the Church and he is one of four Black men mentioned in this 275 year history. HUNTLEY: He is one of four Blacks who is mentioned? SMITH: Yes, one of the four Blacksrecorded in the history of the Parish Church of St. Helena in Beaufort, South Carolina. HUNTLEY: At what point did you get involved with the Civil Rights Movement? SMITH: When it was first organized.I believe the first meeting that I attended was at Sardis Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: This was probably in the beginning.I think the first one was at Sardis and it was 1956. SMITH: Well I don&#039 ; t remember when it was. HUNTLEY: This was initially organized as the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights by Fred Shuttlesworth.So you were in attendance at those first meetings? SMITH: Yes.But what really got me stirred up about it was, I was studying Negro Makers of History by Carter G. Woodson at the Birmingham Baptist College and at the same time we were studying there, Dr. Martin Luther King was beginning his leadership in Montgomery and I used to keep a scrap book of all the activities that were going on among our people. And, one of the main ones that I remember was when Dr. Martin Luther King was stabbed by a woman in New York and that knife was sticking in his chest and I had that picture. I had pictures of Dr. Shuttlesworth coming out of his house when it was bombed and pictures like that I kept in my scrap book for years.I never thought I&#039 ; d need them.But that first meeting we attended, I think my husband and I probably attended that first meeting and we kept up with it, but I don&#039 ; t remember exactly why he dropped out, but I continued. HUNTLEY: Why did you continue and he dropped out? SMITH: I was interested.I had been stirred up about what was going on and I just kept going. HUNTLEY: In your activity with the Movement you went to many mass meetings .SMITH: Quite a few of them. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me what a mass meeting was like?How would you describe a mass meeting? SMITH: Well, I can describe just one. I went every night that my school teacher would take me. HUNTLEY: Who was the school teacher? SMITH: She was a Miss Doris Miles. HUNTLEY: Was she related to you? SMITH: No.She was my landlady.And, she would go up every night and we would sit in the balcony and watch.That&#039 ; s how I became so involved, just watching every night. HUNTLEY: You always sat in the balcony? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: You never sat on the first floor? SMITH: We didn&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: Why do you think you sat in the balcony? SMITH: I don&#039 ; t know, but I was with her.I don&#039 ; t know why we went into the balcony. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see.So you basically was just following her to the balcony.I know there were many teachers who were afraid to lose their jobs if they were involved. SMITH: I think that was it. HUNTLEY: But, at least she was there.There were many that didn&#039 ; t even attend, but she didn&#039 ; t want to be seen, I assume. HUNTLEY: I would pray every night that the Lord would send some marchers, but I wasn&#039 ; t about to go myself.I only prayed that God would send somebody.And, this particular night, Dr. Shuttlesworth said, while making this appeal, I&#039 ; m going to tell you like Mordecai told Esther when the Jews were about to be exterminated.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Mordecai told Esther don&#039 ; t you think that because you are in the king&#039 ; s palace that you will not be destroyed along with the rest of us.&quot ; I remember that at that meeting.And that must have been the night when I went back home and woke up the next morning and all those songs that we had been singing, they moved me. My husband had gone fishing.And, I said, I haven&#039 ; t seen my son in five years.I&#039 ; m going down and be arrested today, and I&#039 ; m going to be somebody&#039 ; s mother tomorrow, in jail.I packed my little bag with my Bible and my toothpaste and little things, and a white dress because Sunday, was Mother&#039 ; s Day. HUNTLEY: So this was the Saturday before Mother&#039 ; s Day in 1963? SMITH: Yes.And, I went on down to 16th Street Baptist Church. They gave us directions as to which way to go.They singled us out by twos.And, there was a young teenager with me.I think when I got outside that I was hoping that I was not going to be arrested.And, instead of going down 6th Avenue like we were supposed to go. HUNTLEY: That is where most of the other marchers were going? SMITH: Yes. But I turned with the young girl and went on down by 16th Street Baptist Church, went up 7th Avenue and down to 19th Street right down by City Hall. HUNTLEY: Why did you take a different route than everyone else? SMITH: I think I was hoping I wasn&#039 ; t going to get arrested after all.I had second thoughts.They had told us to stay right there because there&#039 ; ll be somebody.Others will be coming, you just stay there. HUNTLEY: You mean, at City Hall? SMITH: Yes.But when I got to City Hall, I and the young person just knelt right down at the steps and began praying and that&#039 ; s when they got us. HUNTLEY: You mean, at City Hall? SMITH: We were to go, two-by-two to City Hall. HUNTLEY: In that line? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: But you decided to go in a different direction? SMITH: Yes.I think I got cold feet and hope that I didn&#039 ; t get caught after all. HUNTLEY: So did the others make it to City Hall that day? SMITH: They arrested as we came and put us in the van that was at City Hall and they would wait until somebody else would come until that van got full and they would carry us on over to the city jail. HUNTLEY: So you were arrested that day? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: What did you feel when you were arrested at City Hall? SMITH: Well, I felt excited just like all the rest of them that were singing. We just began singing. It wasn&#039 ; t no more than we expected. HUNTLEY: They took you over to the city jail? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: Fingerprinted you? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: And put you into a cell? SMITH: Yes.There was a whole lot of us in a cell. HUNTLEY: How long did you remain there? SMITH: From that Saturday to that next Sunday before day, we were let out. HUNTLEY: So you were there for a week? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about being there for that week?What did you do for a week? SMITH: Well, we led the people in singing and praying and trying to keep order.There was a lot of disorder there. HUNTLEY: What kind of disorder? SMITH: Well, I woke up one morning and two women were at each other, saying everything they could think to say.And we were right up over the police station and the police heard everything that was being said.And, I said to these women, &quot ; We are right here over this police station and they hear everything you say.&quot ; And I tried to tell them that we have no business talking like this.She said, &quot ; What would you have said if she had of spoke to you like she did to me?&quot ; I said, &quot ; What do you think Dr. King would have had to say?&quot ; Well, she said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m not Dr. King.&quot ; I said, &quot ; He wouldn&#039 ; t want you here.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Was this one of the people who had been protesting? SMITH: Really, I don&#039 ; t know. HUNTLEY: How did you handle that? SMITH: I just told her &quot ; He wouldn&#039 ; t want you here.&quot ; That quieted that down.They didn&#039 ; t have room for everybody in jail. They had to put a lot of men and boys on the outside and a big storm came up during the night and the men were out screaming in the storm.And I said to the women, &quot ; Sisters, our brothers are out there in that storm, let&#039 ; s pray.&quot ; And we stopped and prayed. I don&#039 ; t remember when the storm stopped.I don&#039 ; t remember what happened. HUNTLEY: But you stopped and prayed? SMITH: Yes.And, then one morning we were having devotion and when we didn&#039 ; t break and run to get to the door for breakfast they just shut the door in our face.She just shut the door in our face, we didn&#039 ; t get breakfast that morning. HUNTLEY: Why were you late? SMITH: We were having prayer. HUNTLEY: And they had asked you to come in and you continued to pray? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: And by the time that you finished, they had closed the door? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, even in jail, there was a certain amount of rebellion against the system?Meaning that you were going to do the singing, the praying, regardless of what the consequences? SMITH: They hollered up there &quot ; Stop that singing.&quot ; They could hear us. HUNTLEY: &quot ; They&quot ; meaning the prison guards? SMITH: Yes.But we sang, right on.Because one day we wasn&#039 ; t singing and it was at the same time Dr. King was in that other building.Somebody went to the window and looked out and they said, &quot ; Dr. King said sing.&quot ; I didn&#039 ; t hear him myself, but somebody that could see him said, &quot ; Dr. King said sing.&quot ; So we went on back to singing. HUNTLEY: At that point you were 50 or 53.Were you the oldest person in jail at that time? SMITH: I can&#039 ; t tell, because there were about 200 people and I couldn&#039 ; t tell.There was Mrs. Peagues might have been round about my age, and then there were two women from the church that my husband pastored that were there, they were younger than we were. HUNTLEY: What was the response of your husband when you were arrested? SMITH: We never talked about it. HUNTLEY: Never mentioned it? SMITH: I never remember discussing it. HUNTLEY: Did he get you out? SMITH: Oh, no.The Movement did. HUNTLEY: After you were released from jail, did you go back to the meetings? SMITH: No.It wasn&#039 ; t that I was afraid to go back, it was all of the flak I was getting. HUNTLEY: Who were you getting flak from? SMITH: The first one was that I remember I was reared in that family and this preacher&#039 ; s wife called me and told me, &quot ; I&#039 ; m so mad at you, I don&#039 ; t know what to do.&quot ; I said, &quot ; What are you mad about?&quot ; She said, &quot ; You had to go down there and get yourself arrested.&quot ; And, then, my sister-in-law said that my husband&#039 ; s pastor asked him if he beat me for going down there and getting arrested. HUNTLEY: Did she tell you what your husband had said?The reply? SMITH: No. HUNTLEY: So all these individuals were not associated with the Movement? SMITH: Oh, no.The people that were associated with the Movement never criticized me.It was the church, they reacted coldly. HUNTLEY: So that church was not actively involved in the struggles? SMITH: Just two people had the nerve to go and be in that demonstration. HUNTLEY: So they treated you rather crudely after you were released from jail? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: So you never participated again? SMITH: I never went back.Except, let me see, I think my husband had passed when we made that march.No, he didn&#039 ; t pass until 1979, but in 1965 I participated in that march. HUNTLEY: The march from Selma to Montgomery? SMITH: I didn&#039 ; t go all the way from Selma. I went to St. Jude Hospital in Montgomery along with New Pilgrim Baptist Church. From the St. Jude hospital, we marched with those who had begun the marched in Selma. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to participate in that march? SMITH: My husband didn&#039 ; t object.He didn&#039 ; t really say &quot ; You can&#039 ; t&quot ; . He never said that.So I went there and went to Dr. Martin Luther King&#039 ; s funeral.When Dr. King&#039 ; s mother was killed, I went down to Atlanta to view her body.I didn&#039 ; t stay for the funeral.But my husband never said &quot ; You can&#039 ; t.&quot ; HUNTLEY: He was just not active himself? SMITH: He was not active himself, but he did not say, &quot ; You can&#039 ; t.&quot ; HUNTLEY: Well, you&#039 ; ve been very active any number of ways.You were active in the Movement during that time.You&#039 ; ve marched from Selma to Montgomery.You went to Dr. King&#039 ; s funeral in &#039 ; 68 and, then you decided to complete your education.Tell me about that. SMITH: Well, the New Pilgrim Baptist Church, Dr. N.H. Smith, pastor of which I was a member of and my husband was associate pastor of that church when he died, sent me to Haiti along with another member of the church to check on some land that they was to erect a church school on. And, while I was there, I began to wonder if Haiti wasn&#039 ; t the place where I was supposed to do foreign mission work.But, I didn&#039 ; t have a skill so, when I came back and decided that I would like to go into nurse training and I enrolled in Bessemer Tech. They told me, &quot ; You can&#039 ; t make the grade at your age.&quot ; HUNTLEY: You were in your 70s? SMITH: Yes.But they told me, &quot ; You can&#039 ; t make the grade because the oldest person that we have ever trained was 65,&quot ; and I was passed 65. HUNTLEY: So did you quit at that point? SMITH: No.The foreign mission bureau sent a letter to Bessemer Tech and told them they were interested in me returning to Haiti and if they could train me, they wanted to send me to Haiti.It grieved me quite a bit that I couldn&#039 ; t pass the test.But it was then that the Lord took over.He said, &quot ; Go to Miles College.&quot ; I called Miles College and I got Dr. Estes in Humanities.I told her the situation and she said, &quot ; You come to Miles College and we will take you from where you are to where you need to go&quot ; .I enrolled in the summer program in 1983.I got a grant to continue schooling.I was given a $1,000 scholarship by a group. HUNTLEY: That was based on your grades at that point, isn&#039 ; t that right? SMITH: I got a grant.I began going to school on the grant.And, then somewhere later down the line I got this scholarship. HUNTLEY: What were you studying? SMITH: General education, but my major was English. HUNTLEY: At that point you were in your mid-70s, right? SMITH: I was 74 when I enrolled.I was 77 when I finished, but I didn&#039 ; t march until the next year in May. HUNTLEY: Well, how was it coming back to school, being in school all day, every day with children who could have been your grandchildren? SMITH: In the first place, it filled a void.I had lost my husband, I had been married to him almost 48 years. HUNTLEY: When you came back out here to school that filled that void and it gave you again, a sense of purpose, I&#039 ; m assuming.I can imagine what that was like.What the other students think of you being here? SMITH: I was a missionary here.I didn&#039 ; t go back to Haiti, but I was a missionary on Miles Campus. HUNTLEY: Explain that to me.What did you do?How were you a missionary? SMITH: Well, to begin with there was a young woman in my class and she was most disorderly.It seemed she delighted to run over this White teacher and she kept up a disturbance in that class.One morning I asked him if I could read a scripture and have prayer. HUNTLEY: Was this after this particular person was disruptive in class? SMITH: She had been disrupting the class all time and the instructor said, &quot ; Yes.&quot ; And, I read a scripture from the second chapter of Ezekiel, where it is written, &quot ; Forthey are impudent children and stiffed hearted....&quot ; a preacher prayed and needless to say, it worked. HUNTLEY: So what did the kids call you? SMITH: Grandma.I told them you can call me Grandma, I like it. HUNTLEY: So you were an inspiration then? SMITH: I think I must have been.There was a lot of things, but that stood out. HUNTLEY: Well, you&#039 ; ve obviously had a long tenure and you have been very, very active and you are still active because you drove here today, right? SMITH: Yes.I&#039 ; m active in my church, The Greater Temple Missionary Baptist Church.My pastor is Dr. James A. Gibson, Jr. HUNTLEY: So you are still serving?That&#039 ; s phenomenal.Is there anything that we have not covered that you would just like to leave us with today? SMITH: I can only say to God be the glory that he has used such an insignificant person as myself in this program: INSPIRED BY THE PAST /A VISION OF THE FUTURE HUNTLEY: Thank you Mrs. Smith for spending the time with us today.I appreciate it very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=FWSmith1995.xml FWSmith1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flora Washington Smith Description An account of the resource Flora Washington Smith discusses getting involved with ACMHR from the earliest meetings. She participated in the Selma to Montgomery March, even after spending a week in jail for demonstrating in Birmingham. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950927S Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-09-27 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/f7dff14c12e4fadb1b28ba791b5af142.jpg edc0e8f6f2a3930137e383a0da81f138 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Floretta Tyson OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=FTyson1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Birmingham City Jail Ullman High School OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 May 5, 1995 Floretta Tyson 19950505T 0:32:31 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Emily Reynolds Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 Birmingham City Jail Ullman High School Floretta Tyson Horace Huntley Video 1:|1(2)|12(1)|37(6)|68(8)|102(3)|127(7)|153(7)|180(1)|192(11)|211(1)|225(8)|252(4)|277(5)|304(4)|335(8)|350(2)|375(2)|400(2)|430(6)|454(3)|477(6)|508(7)|533(5)|561(2)|573(15)|595(2)|615(5)|625(3)|649(4)|663(8)|683(17)|702(8) 0 https://youtu.be/8ezQLLigc4Y YouTube video English 0 Interview Introduction This is an interview with Mrs. Floretta Scruggs Tyson for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. It is May 5, 1995. Interview introduction 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 113 Childhood and Family Background Let me just start by asking you a few general questions about your background. Tell me a little about your parents. Where were they from and what were their occupations? Tyson discusses her family and her childhood upbringing in Titusville. African Americans--Social conditions--To 1964 ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Titusville African American families 240 Education: Elementary through High School What elementary school did you attend? Tyson describes her childhood experiences attending school in Birmingham. Education, Elementary ; Education, Secondary ; Segregation in education--United States ; Ullman High School ; Washington School African Americans--Education 336 Relationship with Birmingham Police Department What was your community's relationship to the Birmingham Police Department, do you remember anything in relationship to that? Tyson discusses the relationship between the Birmingham Police Department and her family/community. African Americans--Civil rights Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 411 Early Engagement in the Civil Rights Movement Let's talk a minute about the Movement. I know that at the time of the demonstrations in '63 you were probably a sophomore in high school. How did you and why did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement? Tyson describes attending her first Movement meetings and participating in her first demonstration. African American youth ; Mass meetings ; Nonviolence ; Protest movements--United States African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Civil rights movement 697 Arrest and Time in Jail What do you remember about your arrest? Tyson describes her experience being arrested and in jail for nine days. African American youth ; African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Ullman High School 16th Street Baptist Church ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Birmingham City Jail ; Civil rights movement 976 Family Response to Arrest/Jail And what was your mother's response or reaction when she came to get you? Tyson discusses her family's response to her time in jail, and her siblings' responses to the Movement. Birmingham City Jail ; Civil rights movement African American families ; Arrest (Police methods) 1031 Church Involvement in Movement What church were you a member of? Tyson describes her church and her pastor's active involvement in the Civil Rights Movement. African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; St. Paul Lutheran Church African Americans--Religion ; Ellwanger, Joseph 1137 School and Family Response to Arrest/Jail (Continued) After you and your friend were released from jail and you returned to school, what was that experience like? How were you received when you returned to school? Tyson describes reactions to her arrest/jail time, noting that she was temporarily expelled from school, and her parents sent her to live with family in Ohio for the summer. Civil rights movement ; Education, Secondary African American families ; Ohio 1310 Bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church Well, right after you returned from Cleveland the bombing of Sixteenth Street Church took place, can you share with us your feelings about the bombing? Tyson describes learning about the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church, as well as her family and community's response. Birmingham (Ala.) 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 1524 Reflections on Movement Involvement and Impact What benefits do you think that your community, your family, the city realized as a result of the Movement? Tyson reflects on the impact of the Movement, and how the Movement connects to personal experiences that she's had since that time. African American families ; African Americans--Employment--Law and legislation ; African Americans--Segregation ; Racism--United States African Americans--Employment--Law and legislation ; African Americans--Segregation 1903 Interview Conclusion All right. Well, Ms. Tyson I really want to thank you for coming and sitting with us today and sharing this information, because obviously giving it from the perspective of one who was young at the time is a little different than from people who are older. So, again, thank you, we certainly appreciate your taking the time out of your busy schedule. Interview conclusion. Oral History Floretta Tyson discusses spending nine days in jail as a teenager after being arrested for demonstrating. She was expelled from school and briefly moved to Ohio as a result. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Floretta Scruggs Tyson for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute&#039 ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. It is May 5, 1995. Good morning, Mrs. Tyson. TYSON: Good morning. HUNTLEY: It is good to have you here. Of course, you are very much aware that what we are attempting to do is to get material on Birmingham, the Civil Rights Movement and your contribution to that. So again, I say welcome, and thanks for coming to sit with us. Let me just start by asking you a few general questions about your background. Tell me a little about your parents. Where were they from and what were their occupations? TYSON: Well, both my mom and my father were both from Selma, Alabama. And my father worked for the City of Birmingham. My mother really didn&#039 ; t work. HUNTLEY: She worked at home? TYSON: Right. HUNTLEY: Well, how many brothers and sisters did you have? TYSON: I have five sisters and three brothers. HUNTLEY: Well, I would say that she did work, quite a bit. How many of those were older and bow many younger than you? TYSON: Okay. I got three sisters younger than I am. I got two older than I am. And my three brothers are older. HUNTLEY: Okay. Did your parents go to high school here in Birmingham? TYSON: No. Well, my mother did. She went to, I think at that time it was Industrial? HUNTLEY: Industrial High? TYSON: Right. HUNTLEY: Which is now Parker High? TYSON: Right. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in? TYSON: In Titusville, which is the lower side of the south side of Birmingham, Alabama. HUNTLEY: The lower side? Okay. How would you describe your community? TYSON: It was a pretty neat community, you know. All Black. And all the families had a lot of kids. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did people do that lived in your community? TYSON: All kinds. There was nurses there. As much as I can remember, they did all kind of work there. HUNTLEY: Across the board. They had teachers in the community? TYSON: They had teachers. Not in the area where I lived growing up and going to elementary school. There wasn&#039 ; t any. HUNTLEY: What elementary school did you attend? TYSON: Washington. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Washington school? TYSON: It was a fun school. The rest of my sisters, the older ones, they went there, so everybody knew me when I got there because I had other people that had been through there already. But it was a pretty nice school. And I lived about a half a block from the school which was really nice. HUNTLEY: So you didn&#039 ; t have to get up as early as the other kids had? TYSON: Right. And I could go home for lunch. HUNTLEY: Okay. What high school did you attend? TYSON: Ullman. HUNTLEY: Did you walk to school? TYSON: Sometimes, I did. Sometimes we would ride the bus. But we really enjoyed walking because most of the kids walked. HUNTLEY: What do you remember most about Ullman? TYSON: It was a nice school. I enjoyed it. And I experienced the same thing at Ullman that I had at Washington, because my older sisters and brothers went there too. So, I was like familiar with it and Almoign was only about twelve blocks from where I lived. HUNTLEY: You mean you walked twelve blocks? TYSON: Yes. We walked twelve blocks. HUNTLEY: Kids today won&#039 ; t walk two blocks. TYSON: I know. HUNTLEY: Well, did you ever hear of a school called Parker or did you ever play them in sports? TYSON: Yes. That was our rival. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s a big cross-town rivalry. What was your community&#039 ; s relationship to the Birmingham Police Department, do you remember anything in relationship to that? TYSON: I can only remember my family&#039 ; s part, because I had bad brothers, so we came in contact with them. I guess basically we were afraid of them, you know. Not because they were doing anything to us, it&#039 ; s just because they were the policemen, you know. HUNTLEY: The relationship. Did you look at the police as being in the community to protect and to serve the community? TYSON: Yes. I would say so. HUNTLEY: Why were you afraid of them? TYSON: Because of what they stood for. You know if you did wrong, you were going to jail and that&#039 ; s the only thing I can remember about them really because they all knew. The ones that worked in the area knew you. HUNTLEY: And they knew your parents? TYSON: Right. HUNTLEY: Okay. So you tried to stay clear of them as much as you could? TYSON: Right. HUNTLEY: Let&#039 ; s talk a minute about the Movement. I know that at the time of the demonstrations in &#039 ; 63 you were probably a sophomore in high school. How did you and why did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement? TYSON: I can&#039 ; t remember why I got involved other than just hearing about it and wanting to participate in it and I just started going to the Movement, the meetings that they had. And it was very interesting. HUNTLEY: Were there any of your friends who were involved before you got involved and they encouraged you to get involved? TYSON: No. We all went together. HUNTLEY: All basically at the same time? TYSON: That I can remember, right. HUNTLEY: And you attended the mass meetings on Mondays? TYSON: Exactly. HUNTLEY: How would you describe the typical mass meeting? TYSON: They were like going to church and we would sing, we would pray. And they were just telling us little bits and parts about what was happening around us and how did we feel about it. It was really interesting. HUNTLEY: Well, tell me about the day you and your friends decided that you were going to get involved in the demonstrations. Tell me about what happened that morning as you were leaving home. What was the atmosphere like? TYSON: Well, I was kind of nervous leaving home because I really didn&#039 ; t think I was going to jail but I was getting prepared to. Because in the Movement they were teaching us the non-violent act and what to do in case we went to jail. I just don&#039 ; t believe we were going to jail because it&#039 ; s too many ofus. It never really dawned on me that I was going to jail, until I went. HUNTLEY: It would be someone else, not you? TYSON: Right. And I got prepared because that&#039 ; s what I was taught to do. HUNTLEY: How did you get prepared? TYSON: I took things out of the house like underwear, toothbrush, toothpaste in case I went to jail. And I was doing all of these things without my parents knowing that I was doing them. Because I knew she wouldn&#039 ; t like it, so I did it anyway. So I went on like I was going to school. And before I got to school, I was met by a group of people that said &quot ; I know you&#039 ; re not going to school, because you&#039 ; re going to the church.&quot ; So I said, &quot ; Yes, you&#039 ; re right.&quot ; So I went on to the church. And my friends and I went on to the church and when we got there it was a bunch of other people there and we had already been assigned to what we were going to do. So we got in our little groups and from then on, we were still being, they were still teaching us, telling us what to do in case something should happen. So, we listened and then it was time to march. Well, we got maybe about a half a block from the church and we were arrested. There were a lot of paddy wagons out. As I can remember, I was one of the first ones getting in the first paddy wagon. HUNTLEY: Were there others that left with you that morning, from Parker on the comer of 6th Avenue and 12th Street. When you got to -- TYSON: Ullman. HUNTLEY: I&#039 ; m sorry, Ullman yes. That&#039 ; s a Freudian slip. Did most of the students leave with that group? Or were there others that went to school and then left? TYSON: There were probably others that went to school and left. But it was quite a few of us that did not attend school at all that day. HUNTLEY: Do you remember whether there was a march really from Ullman to the 16th Street Baptist Church, or do you remember how you got there? TYSON: Well, it was probably a march, because none of us had cars. We probably all walked there. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your arrest? TYSON: I was still thinking I&#039 ; m not really going to stay here. Like I knew I was going to get out that night until that night came and nobody came to pick me up and I was terrified. HUNTLEY: How long did you stay in? TYSON: Nine days. HUNTLEY: Nine days. And where were you housed? TYSON: At the Birmingham City Jail. HUNTLEY: Oh, so you were actually in jail? TYSON: In jail, in serious jail. HUNTLEY: Well, tell me about that experience? TYSON: It was horrible. HUNTLEY: How did that impact upon you as a sophomore in high school? TYSON: It was horrible. I never want to experience it again. And I never went back. But it was terrifying because we were in a real jail where they had real criminals and my girlfriend and I we were so devastated about being there, we slept together because we just didn&#039 ; t want anybody to say anything to us. And there was no privacy there. It was just horrible. The food was horrible. We didn&#039 ; t eat anything other than junk out of a machine. I think we took maybe about a $1.50 a piece that we had for lunch money. Maybe it was bus money all combined, because I can&#039 ; t remember lunches being that much, but we both had about a $1.50 a piece so we survived off of the machines in the jail. HUNTLEY: For nine days? TYSON: Right. HUNTLEY: Were there other students there with you? TYSON: Oh, yeah, it was a lot. But it was not as many girls at that time. But the boys in there, but we never saw them after we got booked. HUNTLEY: Do you remember how many young people were in the area? What was the physical make-up of the area? Was it a cell that you were in? TYSON: It was like a cell, but a giant one, like maybe about 12 bunks in there, you know. HUNTLEY: And were you mixed in with the other prisoners? TYSON: Right. If you came to our floor, you would just come there and we had, it was like bars around it and you could see everybody there. HUNTLEY: So you were really frightened about being there? TYSON: Yes. Because I had never been in anything like that before. And they were picking up people off the street and they were angry because they were picked up and they were talking it out on us and oh, it was just terrible there. HUNTLEY: What were others not associated with the movement there for? TYSON: All kinds of things. I can really remember the prostitutes that they had picked up and they were really rowdy. HUNTLEY: How do you mean rowdy? What would they do? TYSON: Because they were just cursing and just carrying on and when they were talking they were talking like right beside our bunk and every time they said somethingout of their mouth, we were nervous. HUNTLEY: So this was quite an experience for you then? TYSON: Right. HUNTLEY: And you stayed there for nine days? TYSON: Right. HUNTLEY: Did you call home? TYSON: I didn&#039 ; t because like I told you earlier that my parents didn&#039 ; t want me to participate mostly because my father worked for the City of Birmingham and he thought he would lose his job. So I knew if l called there they wouldn&#039 ; t come and get me out so it was no reason to call. And I just stayed there. And I don&#039 ; t know if, I don&#039 ; t remember if they just decided to let us out, but getting out the city jail, a state trooper transported us from the city jail to the juvenile court and then my mother came there to pick me up. But going to that juvenile court was like going to heaven compared to that jail we were in. HUNTLEY: But shouldn&#039 ; t you have been in juvenile when you went? TYSON: Yes, but we lied about our ages because all of our friends were older, which were the boys and they were going to jail so we wanted to go with them because we figured they would protect us. That&#039 ; s why they took us there. And it was really a trip. We were riding over there in a state troopers&#039 ; car. We went through the neighborhood and maybe somebody saw us, I don&#039 ; t know. But I know my mother came over and got me out. HUNTLEY: And what was your mother&#039 ; s response, or reaction when she came to get you? TYSON: That I was leaving town. As soon as school was out. And that is exactly what she did. She sent me away. HUNTLEY: So you went to visit relatives? TYSON: I went to stay with my sister. Well, I went to babysit for her. And I didn&#039 ; t come back until school started again. HUNTLEY: Were you ever involved in demonstrations again after that? TYSON: No, but I went to the meetings. HUNTLEY: Were there other family members that were involved in the demonstrations? TYSON: My brother participated but he didn&#039 ; t go to jail. He was one of the ones that they put water on. But the other sisters they were younger than me so they didn&#039 ; t get involved in it. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of? TYSON: St. Paul&#039 ; s Lutheran Church on 6th Avenue South. HUNTLEY: What was the level of involvement of your church and your pastor? TYSON: Our church was really off into it, because we had a White minister at that time. HUNTLEY: What was his name? TYSON: Joseph Ellwanger. He was very active in it, so he supported us. And a lot of things that he did made us a nervous wreck. He was the only White person there and we were all Black and he would take us riding, and we would always think that somebody was trying to kill us. HUNTLEY: So where did he live? TYSON: Next door to the church. HUNTLEY: So he lived in your neighborhood? TYSON: In the neighborhood, right. HUNTLEY: Was he married and had children? TYSON: Right. He was married and he had kids and they grew up with us. HUNTLEY: What schools did they attend? Do you remember? TYSON: I don&#039 ; t know. I don&#039 ; t remember. I know they didn&#039 ; t go to Washington and they didn&#039 ; t go to Ullman, so I don&#039 ; t remember what school they went to. HUNTLEY: Did his family attend all the church services? TYSON: Everything, right. HUNTLEY: So there was a close relationship between his family and the community? TYSON: Right. As a matter of fact, we had all of the kids in our neighborhood going to our church because the church was so active and doing so many things that the kids didn&#039 ; t want to go to any other church. HUNTLEY: After you and your friend were released from jail and you returned to school, what was that experience like? How were you received when you returned to school? TYSON: Well, everybody was cool because everybody else was in it. Except, we all got expelled when we went back to school. HUNTLEY: And how long were you expelled for? TYSON: For two or three days at the most. HUNTLEY: And your parents had to bring you back to school? TYSON: Right. Either they had something on the TV or the radio to that effect that we could return to school. HUNTLEY: What were the conversations like in your home after you had been arrested? TYSON: Most of it was about me in jail and how did I feel and what did I do? Basically, stuff like that. HUNTLEY: Were they critical of your participation of were they supportive? How did you feel in relationship to the rest of the family? Particularly your mother and your father? TYSON: They were telling me that I shouldn&#039 ; t have gone, like I said, because of my father&#039 ; s job. But it wasn&#039 ; t anything that they kept badgering me about. Because they realized that I wasn&#039 ; t the only person that was in there, there were a lot of other people in there too. And if that&#039 ; s what I wanted to do, it was okay. But they were letting me know what could have happened. Well, nothing happened, but they were telling me what could have happened. HUNTLEY: Right after school, your mother sent you to visit your sister in Cleveland, Ohio? TYSON: Right. HUNTLEY: Did you ever discuss what was happening in Birmingham? TYSON: Oh, yes. I was the most talked about thing that ever happened. HUNTLEY: How did they view you? TYSON: They thought it was cool. Even though they probably had the same thing going on there, but I wasn&#039 ; t aware of it, you know. But they thought I was really a star because I had participated in it. HUNTLEY: So, when you returned then from Cleveland and started your junior then, you did go back to the mass meetings? TYSON: Right, I still went to the meetings. HUNTLEY: Initially though your mother and your parents didn&#039 ; t know that you were attending the mass meetings? TYSON: No. HUNTLEY: Did they know it after you returned? TYSON: Yes. But they had nothing to say about it. HUNTLEY: Did they counsel you about going back to jail? TYSON: Well, they didn&#039 ; t have to, because I didn&#039 ; t want to go back to jail. I think I would have gotten out of it if l knew I was going to jail again. HUNTLEY: Well, right after you returned from Cleveland the bombing of Sixteenth Street Church took place, can you share with us your feelings about the bombing? TYSON: I was devastated and frightened terribly. It was just a big shock. The area where I lived in, which was on Center Street and 6th Avenue South, I can remember that a house was bombed about two blocks from where I lived, so we got there after the shock from the bombing and my father told all of us to lie on the floor. &quot ; Everybody get on the floor.&quot ; HUNTLEY: That same day? TYSON: That night. HUNTLEY: That night of the bombing of the church? TYSON: Right. I don&#039 ; t think that impact from the bomb was as large as the one that was in the church, but it was one. I don&#039 ; t remember whose house it was but I can remember it happening. HUNTLEY: Do you remember if anyone was hurt? TYSON: I don&#039 ; t think anyone was there. HUNTLEY: And this was on the south side of 6th Avenue going toward Honeysuckle Hill? TYSON: Right. Exactly. HUNTLEY: What did your father do? TYSON: He and the other fathers, went outside with guns. I just remember him telling us don&#039 ; t come outside. I don&#039 ; t know what they were looking for but everybody was upset, because they were upset from what had happened earlier that day with the church being bombed. HUNTLEY: Did you know any of the girls that were killed? TYSON: Yes. I knew two of them. It was just really, really sad. That was a very sad day. HUNTLEY: Do you remember when you first heard it? Did you hear the bomb itself? TYSON: No. I didn&#039 ; t hear it. But I just heard about it on TV. HUNTLEY: Describe what that feeling was like. TYSON: It was very frightening, you know. I couldn&#039 ; t believe that that was happening. Just really frightening and we were just devastated. We didn&#039 ; t know what to do. It was so many things that was going on, you know, it just, so many things going on at that particular time I just couldn&#039 ; t believe what was happening. HUNTLEY: Were there any incidents happening just on the streets or as you were going to school that may have been associated with that? Were you afraid to ride the bus or to stand on the street? TYSON: Yes. It was incidents happening but not around me. But things that you hear about and my mother would tell us to be careful. You know like, the Whites were so angry, if people would stand on the corner to catch the bus, they might be throwing rocks or anything or just shooting at you, whatever, you know, it was just really dangerous. HUNTLEY: So, this is a period that was dangerous and you remembered it being dangerous because you had heard about what was happening in other parts of Birmingham? TYSON: Right. HUNTLEY: So you were always on guard? TYSON: All the time. Right. HUNTLEY: What benefits do you think that your community, your family, the city realized as a result of the Movement? TYSON: Well, you know I think they have benefitted a lot, but at that particular time in &#039 ; 63 I never dealt with White people like them being mean to me in any kind of way so I didn&#039 ; t look at it that way. I didn&#039 ; t come from a prejudiced family. My mother never taught us that. And the things that they benefitted from I really wasn&#039 ; t involved in it, you know. HUNTLEY: But you were involved in making some of the changes? TYSON: Right. I was involved in that, but I never got any benefits from it, other than what is happening to me now. Maybe I wouldn&#039 ; t have had the kind of job that I have now. HUNTLEY: After you finished high school you went to live in Cleveland Ohio? TYSON: Right. HUNTLEY: How did what you participated in &#039 ; 63 impact upon your life after high school and after you started to mature? TYSON: The thought of me going through the changes in &#039 ; 63 never left me. Maybe I was a big-headed person, but even in Cleveland which it should have been better it probably was just as bad there as it is here. But I never really had any problems, but that never left my mind, because of the changes that I had gone through. I experienced something in &#039 ; 68 when my girlfriend and I was driving to Atlanta and that&#039 ; s what really made me realize what really was going on that we didn&#039 ; t know anything about which was nothing, but it was something to us. When we stopped at a bar in Georgia and we ordered a beer and they told us that we couldn&#039 ; t drink the beer there. We could buy it there, but we couldn&#039 ; t drink it. We had to go around to the back where the other Blacks were and we told them &quot ; No. We were going to drink it here, because we bought it here.&quot ; And they said, &quot ; No. You are not going to drink it here.&quot ; And the bartender called the police on us. And the police came and they escorted us out of town and told us if we didn&#039 ; t leave we were going to jail. And we went. &quot ; Oh, no, we weren&#039 ; t going to jail.&quot ; So we got out of the town. HUNTLEY: What town was that? TYSON: It was Tallapoosa, Georgia. HUNTLEY: Tallapoosa, Georgia. And this is in what year? TYSON: In &#039 ; 68. Now that was my first time really going through some changes with White people. HUNTLEY: So prior to then you had really not been confronted personally by anyone? TYSON: Right. HUNTLEY: Is there anything else you would like to add that we have not dealt with that may be related to your growing up in Birmingham or the Movement, or just in general terms of what Birmingham was like at the time that you were growing up. TYSON: Well, like I said, I really didn&#039 ; t look at Birmingham as being a terrible place to live. Because I never dealt with the things that maybe my sisters and brothers were dealing with. When I came back there was a lot of improvement as far as jobs were concerned. I do remember riding the bus and they had the signs that said &quot ; Colored&quot ; and &quot ; White&quot ; . I remember the water fountains that had the difference, the bathrooms that had the difference. But, it didn&#039 ; t bother me then like it would now. HUNTLEY: Yes. It was just custom? TYSON: It was just something that you did and that was it. But I&#039 ; m glad it&#039 ; s over. HUNTLEY: Well, you obviously had something to do with it changing so I think you should be proud of that. TYSON: Right. I feel like I had a part in it. And even in doing so then, I remember someone saying that you might not benefit from this now, but eventually you will. And I have. HUNTLEY: You have children now? TYSON: I have two sons. HUNTLEY: If there was a movement now, would you encourage them to get involved? TYSON: No. Because I would be afraid. They are very hot headed and when I tell them about things that I have gone through, they can&#039 ; t believe it and I just don&#039 ; t know what may happen. If they could do it with a good attitude, yes I would, but I don&#039 ; t trust them. Because they go &quot ; Well, I am glad I was not living then.&quot ; Because they just can&#039 ; t believe that these things were happening. HUNTLEY: What if they would get involved anyway, how would you feel? TYSON: I would just pray. I would pray and ask God to please help them. Because like I said, their attitudes are really messed up about the situation. But then they might have a level head about it, I don&#039 ; t know. HUNTLEY: Well, I&#039 ; m sure they would. I&#039 ; m sure your mother felt the same about you when you did what you did. TYSON: I know. HUNTLEY: All right. Well, Ms. Tyson I really want to thank you for coming and sitting with us today and sharing this information, because obviously giving it from the perspective of one who was young at the time is a little different than from people who are older. So, again, thank you, we certainly appreciate your taking the time out of your busy schedule. TYSON: You are welcome. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=FTyson1995.xml FTyson1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Floretta Tyson Description An account of the resource Floretta Tyson discusses spending nine days in jail as a teenager after being arrested for demonstrating. She was expelled from school and briefly moved to Ohio as a result. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950505T Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-05-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://bcriohp.org/files/original/8f5d6ecbeb569192273f9e899b20eb64.jpg cbb0a61303edcbc1c09cc4756ea6b708 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BCRI Oral History Project Collection Description An account of the resource Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Video Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context bcriohp Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Horace Huntley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed George Price OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer). http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=GPrice1995.xml Interview Keyword This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. Voter Registration--Photo ID OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka. 5.4 March 24, 1995 George Price 19950324P 0:58:30 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Madeline Jenkins Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Voter Registration--Photo ID George Price Horace Huntley Video 1:|3(1)|20(11)|52(14)|71(16)|90(1)|114(7)|138(6)|150(5)|165(13)|183(5)|198(12)|217(5)|236(7)|258(7)|281(12)|304(9)|325(1)|350(1)|366(10)|388(1)|399(6)|421(2)|447(9)|468(2)|485(2)|504(11)|525(4)|551(3)|563(18)|579(8)|595(8)|608(1)|628(9)|649(7)|664(5)|682(1)|700(5)|716(10)|746(2)|760(16)|783(8)|795(6)|813(6)|837(13)|850(7)|868(5)|882(11)|903(6)|918(8)|929(3)|942(9)|958(3)|975(3)|988(12)|1001(5)|1023(5)|1035(2)|1057(8) 0 https://youtu.be/WAfb6eOhRKo YouTube video English 47 Introduction of Interview This is an interview for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute with Mr. George Price. I am Dr. Horace Huntley, it is March 24, 1995 and we're at Miles College. Interview subject is introduced. 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 68 Background and Educational Journey We just want to start by just getting a little background information. Tell me a little about your background. Where were you born and where did you grow up? Price discusses where he grew up, his military service, and where he went to college. America's armed forces ; Tuskegee Institute Avondale (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Tuskegee (Ala.) 203 Employment After College And, after you finished Tuskegee, what did you do? What kind of work? Price discusses where he worked after university and how he was part of labor unions. Conner Steel ; General Houseware Corporation American Labor Union ; Birmingham (Ala.) 304 Personal Involvement in the Mine, Mill, and Smelter Workers Labor Union One of the labor unions was Mine, Mill, and Smelter Workers. Can you tell me a little about that organization. How active were you involved with them? Price recalls his involvement in the labor union and how the labor union helped Black workers earn fair wages. Asberry Howard ; International Union of Mine, Mill, and Smelter Workers Birmingham (Ala.) 531 Community Demographics What community did you live in at that time during the 50s? Price recalls the class level and racial make-up of his community and how it was predominately working-class, black people. Blacks--Segregation ; Working class African Americans Birmingham (Ala.) 603 His Community's Relationship with the Birmingham Police Department Okay. What was your community's relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? Price discusses how he and his coworkers were harassed by the police whenever the would walk to and from work at night. Alabama Cement and Tile ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Police harassment Birmingham (Ala.) 796 Involvement in the Civil Rights Movement Let me ask you, how and why did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement? Price discusses how he joined the NAACP in the army and joined the Titusville chapter once back in the States. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement 964 Involvement with the NAACP So, from '47 to '56, you were actively involved with the NAACP? Price discusses going to the NAACP meetings and incidents that occurred throughout his time in the group. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People Birmingham (Ala.) ; Blacks--Segregation 1071 Formation of the Alabama Christian Movement In 1956 then, the NAACP is outlawed from operating in the state, what happens then? Price recalls how the Alabama Christian Movement was formed and how the movement got involved with registering black people to vote. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Bethel Baptist Church (Saint Clair County, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) ; Voter registration 1369 His Family's Involvement in the Movement Did other in your family participate? Price discusses how his family became involved in the movement over time and how he spoke at the mass meetings. Civil rights movement ; Mass meetings Birmingham (Ala.) 1461 Helping the Shuttlesworth Children Get Out of Jail Tell me about some of the incidents that you may have witnessed, the kinds of things that were happening during this time. Price recalls how the Shuttlesworth children went to jail for refusing to give up their seat and how he went to get them out of jail. Arrest (Police methods) ; Shuttleworth family Birmingham (Ala.) ; Gadsden (Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 1627 His Church's Involvement in the Movement Absolutely. What church were you a member of? Price discusses his church's involvement in the movement as well as helping members of his church register to vote. New Hope Baptist Church ; Stone, Herman Birmingham (Ala.) ; Voter registration--United States 1831 Impact of the Supreme Court's Decision to Integrate the Buses What about the buses? Did you have any activity... Price recalls how black people were still treated badly after the Supreme Court's decision to integrate the buses. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Alabama. Supreme Court Birmingham (Ala.) 2036 Memories of the Integration of Phillips High School Were you associated with Rev. Shuttlesworth when he went to integrate Phillips High School? Price recalls how Reverend Shuttlesworth was beaten up when he tried to integrate Phillips High School. Phillips High School ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Birmingham (Ala.) 2176 Selective Buying Campaign at Miles College In '62, Miles College students got involved in a Selective Buying Campaign. Are you familiar with that? Price discusses how himself and other students at Miles College were involved in a selective buying campaign at shoe stores. Miles College ; Selective buying campaign Birmingham (Ala.) 2295 The 1963 Demonstrations What do you remember most about that period? Price discusses the demonstrations and how the police sprayed them with the hoses and were attacked by dogs. Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Police brutality--United States Birmingham (Ala.) 2426 Personal Relationship with Dr. King Were there ever any times when you... well, were associated closely with Dr. King? Price recalls how Dr. King asked him to go to Montgomery so they could discuss how to get Black people to vote. King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Montgomery (Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.) 2565 Involvement in the Movement Outside of Birmingham There were efforts made by individuals here in Birmingham to assist people in other parts of the country when they had difficulty where civil rights were concerned. Price recalls how he went to Virginia to try and get the public schools reopened. Abernathy, Ralph, 1926-1990 ; Blacks--Segregation Norfolk (Va.) ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference 2697 Benefits His Community Realized from the Movement On the local scene, what benefits did you, your family and community realize as a result of the Movement? Price discusses how the movement helped the young people of Birmingham and the generations to come. African American youth Birmingham (Ala.) 2736 Things He Would Change About the Movement If you were in control of the Movement and could go back and change some things, what would you change? Price states that he would not change anything about the movement and says that he would have done it the same way. Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) 2833 Continuation of the Movement After Dr. King's Death Some people would say that the Movement died with Dr. King in 1968 and there is no movement going on today. How would you react to that? Price states that the movement continued after Dr. King's death and how there is still a need for affirmative action. Affirmative action programs ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Birmingham (Ala.) 2919 Success of the Birmingham Movement Well, how would you assess the Birmingham Movement? Price discusses the success of the Birmingham movement but how it failed to enact positive change in black schools. Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) 3106 Helping Black People Register to Vote Okay. Is there anything else that you'd like to add that we hadn't dealt with today? Price discusses how Black people weren't given fair chances to vote like white people were. Voter registration--United States Birmingham (Ala.) 3359 Poll Tax Imposed on Voters Is there anything else that you would like to... Price discusses how many Black people were unable to vote because they could not pay their poll tax. Poll tax Birmingham (Ala.) 3458 Conclusion of Interview Well, I certainly appreciate you taking your time out of your busy schedule and coming and talk with us today, because what you have done for us, you've helped us to put another piece of the puzzle together. Interview is concluded. Oral History George Price discusses working closely with Dr. King and Reverend Shuttlesworth, including helping to found ACMHR. His work focused largely on labor unions and voter registration. HUNTLEY: This is an interview for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute with Mr. George Price. I am Dr. Horace Huntley, it is March 24, 1995 and we&#039 ; re at Miles College. Mr. Price thank you for taking your time to come and sit with us this morning to talk about Birmingham and the Civil Rights Movement. PRICE: Thank you for inviting me. HUNTLEY: We just want to start by just getting a little background information. Tell me a little about your background. Where were your born and where did you grow up? PRICE: I was born in Greene County and at the age of three months old I was brought to Birmingham and I grew up in Avondale and Woodlawn section of Birmingham, Alabama. I attended school at Thomas School in Avondale and elementary school and from there to Lincoln School and from there to Parker. And, I was a freshman at Talladega College when I finished Parker High School, but due to the lack of money, I had to come out of school at about three months, so I couldn&#039 ; t go back to school then until I went into the Armed Forces of the United States of America. And, when I got out of the Armed Forces of the United States of America, I used my GI Bill a few years later to go back to school to try and complete my education, which I did at Tuskegee Institute in Tuskegee, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Let me ask you, did you...when you came to Birmingham, did you come with your parents. PRICE: My parents brought me. My aunt brought me to Birmingham because I was three months old. HUNTLEY: Did they remain in Eutaw? PRICE: My parents remained in Eutaw until their death. HUNTLEY: And then you were raised by your aunt here in Birmingham? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: So you then know very little about Eutaw and Greene County, Alabama? PRICE: Very little. HUNTLEY: So, you then went through the Birmingham school system and you went on to Talladega College. PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: From Talladega you eventually went to Tuskegee? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: And from Tuskegee, what...was this after or before you went to the military? PRICE: I went to Talladega before I went to the military, but Tuskegee after I went to the military because I didn&#039 ; t have no money and not having any money, doubtless had it not been for the military service, I wouldn&#039 ; t have been able to go to Tuskegee because I went on the GI Bill. HUNTLEY: How long were you in the military? PRICE: Four years. HUNTLEY: Four years. After you came out of the military, then you went to Tuskegee. What was your major...what did you major in in college? PRICE: General Education and Business. HUNTLEY: And, after you finished Tuskegee, what did you do? What kind of work? PRICE: I went to work for Conner Steel as an iron inspector for a short period of time and after that, I left and went to New York to better my condition. And my aunt that I lived with, after I was in New York maybe 18 or 19 months took sick and they called me and I came from New York here to see about her and I was here maybe two weeks and I went back to my job in New York and I was there maybe a week and a half before I was called back to come back to see about her. When I came back, she was so sick, I put her in the hospital and I just stayed until she died. I remained in Birmingham then and I went to work for General Houseware Corporation and I remained with General Houseware until I retired. HUNTLEY: What did you do at General Houseware? PRICE: A welder. HUNTLEY: A welder. You also were a member of a labor union. PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: What company did you work for when you were a member of that labor union? PRICE: I was a member of the labor union even when I worked at Conner Steel and when I was with Dupont, I was with a labor union, too. I&#039 ; ve always, wherever I worked, if there was a labor union available, I always joined the labor union. HUNTLEY: One of the labor unions was Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers. Can you tell me a little about that organization. How active were you involved with them? PRICE: With Mine and Smelter Workers, I went from a shop steward to vice president in the labor union. . . oh. . . I was a shop steward for maybe six months and from there to a committeeman and from a committeeman to vice president over a period of years. And, I was elected vice president at least three different times. HUNTLEY: Is this in the 50s? PRICE: Yeah. HUNTLEY: So, this is the same time that Mine, Mill and the Steel Workers union. . . PRICE: No, before then. HUNTLEY: Before they merged? PRICE: Before they merged. HUNTLEY: So then, you knew Asberry Howard? PRICE: Definitely so. HUNTLEY: How well did you. . . PRICE: We were good friends. HUNTLEY: Did you work together in the union? PRICE: Oh yes, and negotiating contracts and file as a grievance committee and fighting cases for men and trying to see that people get their fair share of rights when men were fired from their jobs. Asberry Howard and I worked together for a number of years doing this. HUNTLEY: The. . . Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers Union organized in Birmingham in 1933 and in the 40s there was a big rift between Black workers and White workers. Black workers lived and died by Mine, Mill. There were some White workers that were also involved with that. This was prior to your getting involved in the union, right? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: So, Black workers looked at that union as being more than just a union, but really a way of life because they had official positions that was designated for Black workers. . . vice presidents, the recording secretaries and others. In other words, it was an inter-racial union. Was it still that way when you were involved in the 50s? PRICE: Yes, most of it was that way. I can&#039 ; t think too much has changed in that particular time during the time that I worked for... the company that I worked for at that particular time was very rude to the workers and they weren&#039 ; t really nice as they should have been. So, we always had some up road that we always had to fight for and we had to call Asberry Howard in, being the vice president of Mill, Mine, Smelter Workers in most cases. Then, we had a problem during contract negotiations trying to get increases in benefits and the company wasn&#039 ; t too liberal about doing that. We got such raises as five cents and seven cents and a dime and maybe the most I&#039 ; ve ever saw there was fifteen cents on the hour. HUNTLEY: Would you say that the union did make a difference? PRICE: Made all the difference in the world. Without the union, they would run off anybody they want to and do what they wanted to do. They probably would pay different rates or wages for different people. When I mean different people Blacks would always be underpaid, but the union made it so where Blacks received what Whites received doing the same type of work. So, the union also made a difference in seniority whereas if you had a seniority over another person whether they were White or Black, the union saw to it that you got what was just for you by applying the seniority as it was supposed to be applied. If it not had been for the union, then other workers might have an advantage over you. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in at that time during the 50s? PRICE: Oh, 10th Avenue and the address was 3019 10th Avenue North. HUNTLEY: So, is that Norwood? PRICE: That&#039 ; s the edge of Norwood. Right at the edge of Norwood. HUNTLEY: How would you describe that community? The make-up, the racial make-up, the occupations that people had?PRICE: Most the people in that community were ordinary working people. There weren&#039 ; t any highly educated people earning fair and low salaries. There wasn&#039 ; t anybody that I know that earned what I would consider a decent salary or made enough money to live in the type of community that they should have been able to live in. HUNTLEY: So, most of those people probably lived and worked in that particular area? PRICE: Worked in that area and there were other areas that they worked in beside there. Probably most over time, but, the type of people lived in there, they didn&#039 ; t earn too much money. HUNTLEY: Okay. What was your community&#039 ; s relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? PRICE: There was no relationship at that time with the Birmingham Police Department because the Birmingham Police Department was lily White. There weren&#039 ; t any Blacks in the police department and the police weren&#039 ; t too nice to Black people period in that area. I was stopped going to work several times by the police just coming to work and they searched me and want to know where I came from and know where I was going, so if they didn&#039 ; t find no gun, they decided to let me go on home. And, there was times that I come out the plant to my car and the police passed on the street, and if they see you getting in the car, they would turn around, stop and question you and you just got off from work. We had to go to the company and talk to the company concerning how rude the police were towards the workers when they got off at night. You see, at one time I was working from 3-11 and when you get off at 11:00 o&#039 ; clock and take a bath it&#039 ; s 11:30. You get to your car it&#039 ; s about 20 minutes to twelve, so the police was on a rampage at that time and they weren&#039 ; t too nice to Black people at all. HUNTLEY: And this is in the 50s? PRICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: And what did the company say when you&#039 ; d go to them and inform about what the police were doing? PRICE: They called the police department and they talked to maybe. . . I don&#039 ; t know. . . Jimmy Moore was Chief of Police at that time and they said that the police wouldn&#039 ; t bother us anymore, so they lightened up. They weren&#039 ; t quite as bad as they had been. They had been following fellows all the way to the gate. . . on the 11-7 shift whenever they got off at night there was a row of houses that Black people stayed just beyond the plant and down that street was a dead street and usually when you come out of the gate, if the police weren&#039 ; t coming down the street, they were coming from another direction for some employees, and they were intimidated by the police. HUNTLEY: What plant was this? PRICE: This was Alabama Cement and Tile owned by McCullough Industries. HUNTLEY: Okay. Why would. . . why were they harassing workers at that point? PRICE: I don&#039 ; t know all the answers to the question why they were harassing workers, but I do think that they wanted to know where you going if you were away from the plant. Where you were going at that time of night. It appeared to me that Black people didn&#039 ; t have the right to be on the street at that time of night because most time when I went home from work, if I didn&#039 ; t go up the railroad track or drive my car, I was intimated by the police. But, if I drove my car, I might miss them. But if I walked, and went up the street, most likely I run into the police before I get home and if I ran into the police before I&#039 ; d gotten home, they would stop me and ask questions. HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested? PRICE: No. HUNTLEY: Were you a member of any community organizations? PRICE: Not at that particular time I wasn&#039 ; t. HUNTLEY: But later you would get involved in a number of organizations? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: Let me ask you, how and why did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement? PRICE: Well, when I was in the armed forces, I had a battery commander who was a captain. . . was a lawyer in civilian life and he was a captain in the armed forces. And, he looked over the payroll and found that we were drawing maybe $9 or $10 a month and he felt that that was too much money. . . we didn&#039 ; t need that much money, so he called a formation and asked did anybody want to join the NAACP. He said it was two dollars to join the NAACP and when he got through explaining, a fellow by the name of Willie J. Whitings, walked out of the line and I walked out and he said &quot ; all you want to join the NAACP, go to my office and I&#039 ; ll write you up and give you a card, so he. . . HUNTLEY: Is this a White officer or a Black officer? PRICE: Black officer. He wrote us up and gave a card to become a member of the NAACP and that happened in 1944 overseas. HUNTLEY: You said that he looked at the payroll and you were making $10 a. . . PRICE: Some were making $10, some were making more, but he didn&#039 ; t think that we should get that much money, so he felt like that we&#039 ; d give two dollars of that to the NAACP because they were fighting the fight back in the United States of America. They&#039 ; d had some race riots in Georgia and Detroit and around, and the NAACP was fighting because people were being put in jail unjustified. HUNTLEY: So, $10 a week was. . . PRICE: $10 a month. HUNTLEY: A month. . . was big money at that time? PRICE: Well, he thought it was because we were overseas and when you get overseas in the armed forces, some of the things that you have to buy in the United States of America such as soap, tooth powder and the things that a person needs, the government gives them to you. So, you really don&#039 ; t have a lot to spend the money for unless you&#039 ; re in a place where you can go to town where the ladies are, and we weren&#039 ; t right where the ladies were. . . we were out in the jungles, so he decided that we were drawing too much money. That caused me to get involved in it. HUNTLEY: So, how many of you joined the NAACP at that time? PRICE: It was about 20 joined the NAACP at that time. HUNTLEY: So, that was your first encounter with a civil rights organization? PRICE: First encounter. HUNTLEY: Okay, but what did you do as a result of being a member while you were in the service? PRICE: Wasn&#039 ; t anything I could do until I got back out of the service. And, when I got back out of the service, I joined. . . there was a NAACP chapter in Titusville, headed by Rev. T. L. Lane, so when I got out of the service, I joined that chapter and started working with that chapter. HUNTLEY: What year did you get out of the service? PRICE: Oh. . . &#039 ; 47. HUNTLEY: So, from &#039 ; 47 to &#039 ; 56, you were actively involved with the NAACP? PRICE: That&#039 ; s right. HUNTLEY: What did you do? PRICE: Well, we went to meetings and we had a situation in Birmingham where. . . a policeman&#039 ; s wife got in a parking place where a Black that worked at ACIPCO by the name of Parker and was having some meetings, so what happened is that, I guess she told her husband and the police arrested Parker and. . . HUNTLEY: He was. . . Parker was. . . they had an argument about a parking spot? PRICE: A parking space. And. . . they arrested Parker and put him in jail and sometime during that night or the next night, they went to jail and beat Parker up in jail. And the NAACP got on to that particular case and I became directly involved. And, at the same time, there were some houses being bombed on Center Street all the way up from maybe 11th Avenue up to the top of the Center Street hill there, 3 or 4 houses had been bombed and then the NAACP was all the legal organization that we had in this town at that particular time to fight for the victims. HUNTLEY: Why were those homes being bombed at that time? PRICE: All I can say is the perpetrators bombed them because they didn&#039 ; t want Black people to live in that community. HUNTLEY: That was that White community that was turning. . . that Black folk had started to move into. PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: So, those homes that Blacks were moving into were being bombed? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: So, this is actually prior to the development of the Alabama Christian Movement? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: In 1956 then, the NAACP is outlawed from operating in the state, what happens then? PRICE: When the NAACP was outlawed in &#039 ; 56, John Patterson was the attorney general of the State of Alabama, then the leaders got together and organized an organization called the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. We met at Smith and Gaston Funeral Home and we discussed it and we discussed it again. We got a charter and we set a meeting to be at Sardis Baptist Church on June 5, 1956 and there was born the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. So, we started to fighting segregation then and I was involved in any number of things. HUNTLEY: Were you involved in the very first meetings of the movement? PRICE: Very first meetings that they had on June 5 at Sardis Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: What was your role? PRICE: I was just...we were just getting it organized then. The organization had not been set up and the officers had to be appointed and elected and after the officers was appointed and elected, then we got a chance to go. It was about three meetings before we got all the officers appointed. HUNTLEY: Did you serve in any official capacity? Were you an officer at the time? PRICE: Yeah, I was a board member. HUNTLEY: So, you attending then, the mass meetings regularly? PRICE: Yeah, regularly. HUNTLEY: How would you describe the typical mass meeting? PRICE: Well, a typical mass meeting were as many people that probably could get into a church at that particular time. We discussed the problems of Black people, what we had to do because it was crucial in this town at that particular time. Blacks could not hardly vote, it was hardly possible for Black people to vote. It was hardly possible for Black people to live in certain communities without their houses being bombed. It was hardly possible for Black people to have a nice automobile up and down the street without being intimidated by the policemen. And, at the same time, we. . . as we went on. . .Bethel Baptist Church was bombed and later on, after Bethel Baptist Church was bombed, Sixteenth Street Church was bombed as we went along. And then. . . before then, we had to set up clinics, so what we did was try to get. . . there was a very few people registered to vote at that particular time and it was so hard for people to become registered until. . . we had to set up a way to teach them and we had a questionnaire of about maybe 50 or 45 questions. Probably took a college graduate to pass. . . the vote. . . to be registered. And, so many people were being turned down. . . not all of them on education, because they didn&#039 ; t ask legal questions. . . we had all the answers to the legal questions, but they asked questions that you probably wouldn&#039 ; t know. For instance, they asked women &quot ; when was your first child born&quot ; and then they asked her when did she get married. Then, they asked women, &quot ; you sure all them children your husband&#039 ; s children?&quot ; And they turn them around on more questions. And, we kept records on those that they turned down and we--over a period of maybe three years, we&#039 ; d had something like 40,000 folks was turned down by the Board of Registrars. HUNTLEY: Was this as a result of your work with the NAACP or the Alabama Christian Movement? PRICE: This was the Alabama Christian Movement, but the NAACP led me up to this. NAACP was out at this time. HUNTLEY: I notice that you are credited with being responsible for over 17,000 people. . . PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: Being registered as voters and this is during the Alabama Christian Movement period. PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s impressive. At the meetings. . . were Birmingham police present? PRICE: Yes. At all meetings, Birmingham police were present. HUNTLEY: What was their purpose there? PRICE: To watch and to see and to hear what was going on. HUNTLEY: And, were they welcomed, or. . . PRICE: Yeah, we welcomed them. We thought they shouldn&#039 ; t have been there. A lot of times we made statements as to whether they should have been somewhere else trying to catch some crook &#039 ; cause we were Christian people trying to get our rights and freedom, but they didn&#039 ; t pay any attention. They were at the meeting on time every Monday night. Nobody did anything to them. They enjoyed it so they got where they laughed, but they realized that they were in the wrong place and they were in the wrong place watching God&#039 ; s people. HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate? PRICE: Yeah, one or two. HUNTLEY: Did any of them go to jail? You were never arrested, right? PRICE: Well, I stayed out for a purpose. Being a board member, we had to look out for others. I would have been arrested like all the rest of them, but I was out for a purpose, to help get others out of jail and what have you. HUNTLEY: Okay. Were you one of those that helped to raise funds? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: Did you ever do any speaking in Birmingham or outside of Birmingham for the purpose of raising funds. PRICE: Not too much speaking for raising funds, but for the event of the Civil Rights Movement, I spoke all the time. I spoke at the mass meetings every Monday night for years. HUNTLEY: Okay. How did other members of your family react to your participation? The level of involvement that you had in the movement?PRICE: Well, when I first got started, I got a little kick from my family. They said a few things to me that I didn&#039 ; t think too much of because they didn&#039 ; t quite understand what was going on and what was involved. So, I tried to explain to my family, but they didn&#039 ; t accept all I said. They saw they weren&#039 ; t going to stop me, so they quit talking to me about it. So, I just kept on. . . so finally, they started coming in one by one. I finally got them all into the movement. HUNTLEY: So everybody eventually would get involved as a result of your involvement? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: Tell me about some of the incidents that you may have witnessed, the kinds of things that were happening during this time. PRICE: Well, an incident happened. The Shuttlesworth children were on a bus coming to Birmingham and they were pulled off the bus in Gadsden, Alabama and put in jail and we formed a. . . we knew that it&#039 ; s a possibility it wouldn&#039 ; t be safe for one or two people to go to Gadsden to try to get the children out. So, we had a little convoy, 5 or 6 cars and I was driving a car that belonged to Mr. Colonel Stone Johnson and we went to Gadsden. I had the papers ; bonds to get the children out of jail but when I got to Gadsden, Alabama, it was denied for me to get the children out of jail. So I couldn&#039 ; t get the children out of jail because they wouldn&#039 ; t accept the bonds. They turned the bonds down even though they were signed by responsible people and people in authority. But, the officials in Gadsden wouldn&#039 ; t accept this. So we had to come back to Birmingham without the children and go back at another time to get the children. HUNTLEY: Why were they arrested? PRICE: Because they refused to give up their seats to somebody on the bus. HUNTLEY: In other words, they were sitting. . . toward the front and wouldn&#039 ; t give their seats up for Whites that had gotten on the bus? PRICE: Yes, that&#039 ; s correct. HUNTLEY: How many children were there and what were their ages? PRICE: Oh they were young, they ran from maybe from 13 to about 17 years old. HUNTLEY: What happened, did you eventually go back and you. . . PRICE: Yeah, another group went back and they released them, but they had to do some work and had to get some lawyers and going to a few things in order to get them out of jail. HUNTLEY: Was it a fact that they had to get a bondsman from Gadsden rather than using a bondsman from Birmingham? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: So they were really trying to get business for their own people, in their own town in. . . and would not recognize what the bondsperson from Birmingham, is that correct? PRICE: That is part of the truth, but I don&#039 ; t think it&#039 ; s altogether true because after all, Birmingham is not a long ways from Gadsden, Alabama. So they could have accepted the bond since it was the State of Alabama. If it had been another state, I might have went along with them doing it for that purpose, but being this close to Birmingham, I don&#039 ; t accept it. I think that they could have let us have the children. It was some ill will involved why they didn&#039 ; t let us have them. HUNTLEY: Absolutely. What church were you a member of? PRICE: New Hope Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: New Hope. Was your church involved. . . your church or your pastor involved with the movement? PRICE: Part of them. A few. . . quite a few members at our church were involved and my pastor was also, and his wife. HUNTLEY: So, then, he really didn&#039 ; t have any--any difficulty because there were other pastors who were not involved, is that correct? PRICE: Sure, there were a lot of pastors that were not involved. HUNTLEY: So your church then, being involved, that encouraged your minister to be involved and I&#039 ; m assuming that you were partly responsible for that as a leader in your church. Were you a deacon in your church? PRICE: No, I wasn&#039 ; t a deacon at that time. HUNTLEY: Okay. PRICE: My pastor was a brilliant man and when he came he talked about registering voting oh. . . when I joined the church, after I got out of the Army, I was a member of the church before I went, but after being away a number of years, I had to rejoin the church when I got out the Army. And, he was from Atlanta, Georgia and that was part of his talk, registering and voting. So, there was no problem to get Rev. involved. I heard him say some things that I respect him really high for. He&#039 ; d take the money out of his own pocket and had a clinic at New Hope Baptist Church for the members and other people to come in and learn how to go down and register and vote. At that particular time, we had some members in New Hope Church was in age, something like 50, 60 years old and they went down to vote and we had a poll tax in the City of Birmingham and they had to pay poll tax from the age they were 21 up to 56 or 60 or 70 years of age. Some of them paid $30 and $40 back poll tax before they could vote in that church. And, the chairman of the deacon board was an elderly man, pretty close to 70 years old, if not that, and he paid his poll tax and they charged him poll taxes from 21 years to 70 years before he had the privilege to vote. And, there were more than him. Deacon Cliff Watkins, after Mr. Ben Grisby passed on, Deacon Cliff Watkins became the chairman of the deacon board. When he became the chairman of the deacon board, he. . . he went down and registered and had to pay a lot of money. Mr. C. C. Jones, was a deacon at New Hope and had been there a long time. I understand he paid $30 some dollars and just on goes the story. Whereas, at the Board of Registrars, make you pay all that back tax before they let Blacks vote. HUNTLEY: Who is your minister at that time? PRICE: Rev. Herman Stone. HUNTLEY: Rev. Herman Stone. You suggested that the issue, some of the issues that were involved with the movement at the time were police harassment, voter registration actually, the kids that you talk about with Rev. Shuttlesworth, of course the schools were an issue. Were there other issues that the Movement dealt with that you were remember vividly? PRICE: Oh yeah. HUNTLEY: What about the buses? Did you have any activity. . .PRICE: Yeah, riding the buses in the City of Birmingham. I was downtown one day not too long after the Supreme Court handed down the decision that the buses were integrated. You know, in the segregated days, you rode the bus in the back of the bus and it made no difference how crowded the bus was with Blacks, they didn&#039 ; t let but so many Blacks ride--they put a board there and the Blacks could not ride up front. They had to stand in the back. But then after the Supreme Court ruled on the bus, I was downtown and caught the bus and when I caught the bus, I sat in the White section where Whites had been sitting just on the bus. Didn&#039 ; t many people sit down behind me, but when I got where I was supposed to get off at, the bus driver didn&#039 ; t let me off, so we went another block. So, I got out and took my pencil and paper and took the number of the bus and his number, he was kind of nasty about it. It wasn&#039 ; t a law then. We had to go and negotiate the buses were. . .the bus drivers were still doing the same thing now, as they doing in the segregation days, not allowing people. . . they couldn&#039 ; t put the boards in the buses, but they were being nasty right on for a while. We had to go to Tennessee and get some White students from a school in Tennessee and bring them to Birmingham and put in the back of the buses in order to try to make it totally integrated. HUNTLEY: So, you actually solicited assistance from outside of Birmingham? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: From young White students who would actually sit in the back and Blacks would sit in the front? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: What was the reaction then to. . . of the bus drivers? PRICE: The bus drivers didn&#039 ; t become nice until the Alabama Christian Movement board meeting met with the bus company and the City of Birmingham, the city attorney and the bus company and told the bus company that. . . what the bus drivers were doing. So the bus company said that they would tell the bus drivers to just drive the bus, don&#039 ; t have any fear with the passengers. Then, the stuff began to let up, but before then, they were not actually harassing, but they were making inconvenient for the passengers. And even in the segregated days, it was terrible. It was almost unbearable in the segregated days. Where sometimes if the bus was crowded, you had to go into the back door of the bus. Couldn&#039 ; t even go in the front door. . . and stand up wherever you had to go to and get off not having the privilege to sit down even though there were seats available that you could sit down. The bus driver was just too nasty to move the board, so you had to stand up until you got where you were going. HUNTLEY: Is it true that you&#039 ; d actually have Black people standing up on the bus and many times there were few Whites on the bus, but in order to get off, even though you&#039 ; re standing in front of the back door, you had to walk back through all of the people and get off the bus rather than being able to get off on the front? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: That&#039 ; s. . . those were some tough times. PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: Were you associated with Rev. Shuttlesworth when he went to integrate Phillips High School? PRICE: No, I was working that day. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about that time? PRICE: Oh, they beat him up and Rev. Abraham Woods drove the car from the scene. Rev. Phifer drove the car to the scene. Rev. Phifer was, at that time, the second vice president of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights, so he drove Rev. Shuttlesworth to Phillips High School. We had to plan it, but I had to work and I couldn&#039 ; t get off. If I could have gotten off, I would have been there. I got off that afternoon and they had taken Rev. Shuttlesworth home because he was beaten up. The perpetrators were around with rocks and cans in their hands and there were people from my family and friends that I know, were there to testify to what the perpetrators did when Rev. Shuttlesworth got out of the car. . . they crowded around and beat him up. . . and they did beat him up. HUNTLEY: And, they actually stabbed his wife. . . PRICE: Yeah and said all kinds of nasty words. The language was bad that the perpetrators used because they used the word nigger and there was no such thing as a nigger, that&#039 ; s just what they wanted to use to disgrace Black people. HUNTLEY: It&#039 ; s ironic that today, Phillips High School is 99.9% Black. PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: 1961. . . Bull Conner made a statement because there were Freedom Riders that were going through the south and he was. . . he suggested that the Freedom Riders had more sense than to come to Birmingham. Of course, the Freedom Riders did come into Birmingham. Were you involved in that at all, because I know there were those who left here and went to Anniston to help bring people down? Did you have any involvement in. PRICE: Not in the Freedom Rides because I was working during the time. They came around 11:00 o&#039 ; clock that day and I had a job and I wasn&#039 ; t able to be involved, but I know about it. HUNTLEY: In &#039 ; 62, Miles College students got involved in a Selective Buying Campaign. Are you familiar with that? PRICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me how that was developed? PRICE: Well, they came to the Movement. We had a young people&#039 ; s division in the Movement and in the Movement we had a director as to what we did from day and from time to time as to whether we would stage any buying campaign or whatever it might be, we were directed from the Movement. So, Miles College students--a buying campaign by going down in the city to buy different products at different places. At that particular time, there were places in the stores that Blacks . . . were segregated. I bought the better-quality shoes. . . not because I was able to buy them, but because I didn&#039 ; t want to be segregated. The stores that sold the lesser quality shoes, had a special place for you to sit down. They&#039 ; d take you back into the store where nobody would be, unless it&#039 ; d be one or two Blacks. All the Whites would be up front where you could buy a pair of shoes at a reasonable price. But, where you had to pay right smart of money for the shoes, then they weren&#039 ; t so segregated. You could sit down wherever anybody else sat. That caused me to pay a little bit more money for my shoes, because I didn&#039 ; t want to go back there. And, two or three stores I went into, they&#039 ; d carry you back in the back to sit you down to try on a pair of shoes, and I didn&#039 ; t like that. HUNTLEY: Do you remember what stores those were? PRICE: Oh yeah Regal Shoe Store, Flagg Brothers Shoe Store and Bob Young&#039 ; s Shoe Store. HUNTLEY: Was Odum, Bowers &amp ; White one of those that. . . PRICE: No. HUNTLEY: You could go into that one, right? PRICE: You could go in and sit down where you wanted to. HUNTLEY: &#039 ; 63, of course, with the demonstrations in April and May. . . PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: What do you remember most about that period? PRICE: Well, we marched to the city jail on Sunday and they would have the hose pipes and water and prayed and some of the preachers asked them to. . . we didn&#039 ; t want to go any further, just up to the jail to pray and they refused to let us go. So, some started walking off and all of us walked off and we went on to the jail. But, the fire department was out there with hose pipes to keep us from going to the jail, just to pray. HUNTLEY: Were you ever among any of the marchers when they turned the hoses on and turned the dogs loose? PRICE: I was with all of that. HUNTLEY: Is that right? PRICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you just sort of explain what that was like ; facing the dogs and the hoses? PRICE: Facing. . . well we had a lot of children and vicious dogs. . . German police dogs, and the hose pipes were strong that they turned on. . . on any number of people. I might say it might run into a thousand people. . . where they were children and knocked children down in the street and, at the same time, sicced the dogs on the people and the dogs had--and the people had to fight the dogs off. But, they didn&#039 ; t have anything to fight the dogs with. But, at the same time, people was somewhat devastated because of the fire hoses and because of the dogs. The police did not do anything to keep the dogs off the people, nor did the fire department turn the water off. They were doing this to run the people. . . it was a lot of ill will. It was a tragic situation in Birmingham at that time. HUNTLEY: Did this dissuade people from getting involved with the Movement? PRICE: No, it increased people getting involved. Instead of driving people from the Movement, people came more and more and more. HUNTLEY: Were you ever involved in any. . . any of the Movement outside of Birmingham? PRICE: Yeah, I went to Selma and marched a little, but I didn&#039 ; t make the whole trip, but I went and marched some. HUNTLEY: Were there ever any times when you. . . well, were you associated closely with Dr. King? PRICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: What was your relationship? PRICE: Just a good friend. Dr. King sent for me to come to Montgomery, Alabama. I am the person that came up with the ten reasons why Black people should vote and he looked at it and he thought it was very good, so he sent to call Rev. Shuttles worth and told him to tell me or to bring me to Montgomery---he wanted to talk with me. So, Rev. Shuttles worth and Rev. Gardner and Rev. Charles Billups and Mrs. Lola Hendricks and myself went to Montgomery to Dr. Martin Luther King&#039 ; s establishment. He had an office there. We discussed the ten reasons why Black people should vote. Dr. King became a good friend of mine during the civil rights struggle. We discussed a lot of things and even during the demonstrations here in Birmingham, we sat down at the old Smith and Gaston building maybe until 12, 1 and 2 o&#039 ; clock in the morning deciding what to do for Birmingham, because we had 3,000 people in jail and we had run out of money and so we got $50,000 from SCLC and at that particular time, Rev. Ralph David Abernathy was the treasurer and he give us a check for $50,000 to help us get some of the people out of jail, but that wasn&#039 ; t a drop in the bucket. We couldn&#039 ; t get the people out of jail with $50,000 because the bonds were $2,000 for children, so we had to go to Atlanta and get a federal judge to hand down a decree and order they turn the children loose and let them go back to school. So, we put a lawyer on the plane and sent him to Atlanta and filed the case in Atlanta with. . . in the 5th Circuit Appeals Court. What had happened in Birmingham and he sent an order through the federal judge that Judge Glenn was the federal judge at that particular time. . . an ordered him to put the children back in school--that&#039 ; s how we got them out of jail, most of them. HUNTLEY: There were efforts made by individuals here in Birmingham to assist people in other parts of the country when they had difficulty where civil rights were concerned. Were you involved in any of that? PRICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: What were you involved in? PRICE: I went to Virginia to. . . they shut down the schools in Virginia and wanted to charge the people $20 per child per week and some Black people had 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10 children and making $30 maybe $40 dollars a week at the most and they couldn&#039 ; t afford it and it devastated the whole city of Norfolk, Virginia. We went to try to help and see what we could do to give them some aid as what should be done in the city in Virginia. HUNTLEY: You are suggesting they were closing the public school system? PRICE: They closed the public school system down. HUNTLEY: And, establishing. . . PRICE: Private schools. HUNTLEY: And, they would allow Blacks to attend those private schools? PRICE: If they could pay. HUNTLEY: If they could afford it. So, you and others from here. . . was this with Dr. King or. . . or was this. . . PRICE: Dr. King was in the hospital at that time. . . where a woman had stabbed him in the chest with a letter opener. So, the other top officials took over. Dr. C. K. Steele was vice president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. Dr. Ralph David Abernathy was treasurer of SCLC and Rev. Shuttles worth was a board member. . . I don&#039 ; t know exactly what his position was, but in Norfolk, Virginia, he&#039 ; d taken over and we discussed what needed to be done so we went out on the school grounds and offered an ultimatum to the city and the press covered this and we prayed and there were some perpetrators all around. We didn&#039 ; t know exactly what the perpetrators would do, but when we got through praying, then we marched away. But, we worked with the people that were in charge of the movement in that city to do the best that we possibly could to help them figure out what should be done. HUNTLEY: On the local scene, what benefits did you, your family and community realize as a result of the Movement? PRICE: I don&#039 ; t really think we benefited any more from the fact that there was a chance for young people and there was a chance for the coming generations. That what we went through, they wouldn&#039 ; t have to go through and make a better place for all of us to live. I think that&#039 ; s all we actually profited from it. HUNTLEY: So you think that. . . it became a better place to live as a result of the Movement? PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: If you were in control of the Movement and could go back and change some things, what would you change? PRICE: I don&#039 ; t think I would change anything much different from what actually happened. If I was in control of the Movement and could go back, I think at that particular time, what went on and how it went on. . . it wasn&#039 ; t a thing that you could plan from year to year and from month to month. You had to deal with it as it came up. It was a day-to-day thing. What came up today, you deal with today. What came up tomorrow, you&#039 ; d deal with tomorrow. If it would be that way now, you would probably have to deal with it the same way. The opposition was so great at that particular time, and we didn&#039 ; t have money that we should have had, but we had to take what we did have. . . the lawyers weren&#039 ; t too lenient with us, so we had to. . . a lot of things that we would have done. . . that we couldn&#039 ; t do because of lack of finances, so right now, if I had to go back, I probably would have to do it the same way. Because, in a civil rights struggle, what happened today may not happen tomorrow, so you have to deal with it a different way. So, I think that a lot of people felt that we should have had a course to travel, but we couldn&#039 ; t have a course to travel. The problem was that things came up differently. There were plans to do this, plans to do that. Whatever you do, somebody knew something just the opposite. You do something, somebody do something just the opposite and this kind of thing kept us always planning, always planning. . . you never knew directly what you would do. HUNTLEY: Some people would say that the Movement died with Dr. King in 1968 and there is no movement going on today. How would you react to that? PRICE: I think that&#039 ; s wrong. There is a movement going on today. A lot of people wouldn&#039 ; t be receiving what they&#039 ; re receiving, and a lot of people wouldn&#039 ; t be living like they are living and the circumstances of life wouldn&#039 ; t be. . . with the dark skinned people and a lot of Whites if there was not a Movement in this country ; even today. HUNTLEY: There&#039 ; s an attack now on affirmative action. PRICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: How do you view that? PRICE: Well, we need affirmative action. There might be some parts in affirmative action that could be eliminated, but not affirmative action. Affirmative action has brought us a long way. If it had not been for affirmative action, there are a lot of things that exist today that would not exist and a lot of jobs that people have, they would not have if it had not been for affirmative action. It might be that people are disagreeing with the whole affirmative action. There might be some parts that they need to cut out or eliminate or revise. There&#039 ; s a possibility that affirmative action could be revised and do a better job than it&#039 ; s doing now. But you still need affirmative action. HUNTLEY: Well, how would you assess the Birmingham Movement? How successful was it? What were the accomplishments? PRICE: The accomplishments of the Birmingham Movement were fine. We didn&#039 ; t accomplish all the things that we maybe should have. . . I know we didn&#039 ; t accomplish all the things we wanted to accomplish. But we accomplished a lot in the process. There a lot of things that need to be accomplished now that we didn&#039 ; t accomplish then and probably we couldn&#039 ; t have accomplished then, but the Birmingham Movement was a great asset to Birmingham and to underprivileged people. HUNTLEY: I&#039 ; ve heard at least one student of those days suggest that Birmingham, particularly the school system, was integrated by the same mentality that segregated the school system. They didn&#039 ; t say the same people, but the same mentality. How would you react to that? PRICE: I don&#039 ; t agree with that because Black people weren&#039 ; t in a position to segregate nor integrate. White people were in a position to segregate the schools. They were in a position to integrate the schools. Now, all the mentality, I have no knowledge of it, but we know at that particular time that we could only apply ; ask for the law to be handed down. The people that was in a position to hand down the law were Whites. The people that segregated the schools were Whites. HUNTLEY: What was the result of the integration of schools in terms of Black schools? How did the integration affect Black schools? PRICE: I don&#039 ; t think it did a whole lot to affect Black schools. It might. . . I hope improve Black students because I&#039 ; m not familiar with all the things they taught at that particular time, because I wasn&#039 ; t a member of the board of education, and I still don&#039 ; t know. But, at least it gave children an opportunity to go to schools closer than a lot of kids that probably weren&#039 ; t able to go to these one or two schools that they had in Birmingham by integrating the schools that put a high school near wherever Black children lived and they could attend that school which made it better on the parent&#039 ; s budget and made it better on the child and the child had a better opportunity of learning because he could be. . . in most instance exposed to some knowledge that he wasn&#039 ; t exposed to in the beginning. And, being exposed to knowledge would give you a better opportunity to learn, so I think maybe integration did quite a bit for Blacks by giving them a better opportunity to learn by exposing them to a different type of knowledge. HUNTLEY: Okay. Is there anything else that you&#039 ; d like to add that we hadn&#039 ; t dealt with today? We&#039 ; ve covered a lot of ground. Is there anything that I have not asked that you would like to. . . PRICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: Okay. PRICE: I would like to say that during that struggle, we had to take people to the vote of registrars and they&#039 ; d be turned down and couldn&#039 ; t vote and couldn&#039 ; t register and we had to set up clinics throughout the city to teach our people how to register. And, after teaching them how to register, when they registered, come back to the clinic and teach them how to vote because during that period of time, I remember that in general elections you have maybe, at that time, a 100 or 135 people running for 30 offices or 25 offices and you had to pick over 100 and something people to choose 25 people. And, if you vote, pull the lever by the wrong person&#039 ; s name, the vote wouldn&#039 ; t count and you used machines then and a lot of people wasn&#039 ; t so familiar with machines. They allowed you three minutes in the machine and I&#039 ; ve been in the line many times when there were other members of other races being in the machines 10 and 15 minutes, nobody say nothing. But when Blacks were in the machine, over three minutes, somebody was telling them they were spending too much time and I have spoke myself to the pollers at the polling place in the precinct, give them a little bit more time, you&#039 ; re a little unfair and sometime they would and sometime they wouldn&#039 ; t. This was a handicap to Black people in order to cast their ballot because you have to be very good to select 30 folks out of a 135 people voting. Sometime we had 6 to 10 folks. I remember in the State of Alabama, 10 folk ran for governor of the State of Alabama and 10 for lieutenant governor and six for one particular job. . . one particular position. Maybe five for another. During this, you&#039 ; d select maybe 25 positions that people going to public office and you have only three minutes to do this and Blacks were deprived of the right of staying in the polls over three minutes and there were others from other races could stay in there maybe 12, 14 minutes and sometimes the lines, at that particular time, would be 3 or 4 lines, depends on how machines you had and if you had 10 machines, and that&#039 ; s in a major election, the building where you would be full of people, and on the outside, you&#039 ; d have maybe a line worth 2 or 3 around the corner. So, the polls would have to be opened to 9 and 10 o&#039 ; clock to get all the folks over. They closed the doors at 7 o&#039 ; clock and if all is not in the building at 7 o&#039 ; clock, the rest don&#039 ; t get a chance to register. That has happened to Black folks, as well as Whites, mostly Blacks. HUNTLEY: Last year, two years ago as we viewed South Africa voting for the first time, did that remind you at all of Birmingham? PRICE: Yes. HUNTLEY: The same kinds of lines that existed probably even larger lines in South Africa? PRICE: And much more difficult. They were voting with a ballot you push in a hole, just mark it with a pencil in South Africa and push it in a box, but in Birmingham, Alabama you had a machine sitting over there that had been programmed with people&#039 ; s names on it and you had to look on that machine and find the person&#039 ; s name that you was looking for and pull the lever by that name which took much more time to do it. And, you had to read real fast. You couldn&#039 ; t hardly make any mistakes, &#039 ; cause if you made any mistakes, then the ballot wouldn&#039 ; t count. So, you would lose that ballot. We&#039 ; d lose some ballots during that time. That was somewhat unfair to a lot of voters and especially to Blacks too. HUNTLEY: And that has changed as a result of the kinds of protests that were made during that particular time. PRICE: Right. HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to. . . PRICE: Yes. The people that were turned down for voting, we noticed in Alabama there was a poll tax imposed on people, I said a little about it, but I want to say a little more about it. The poll taxes that was imposed. . . if you were pulled and didn&#039 ; t have the money to pay your poll tax for a certain time of the year, then you didn&#039 ; t get a chance to vote. Your poll tax had a deadline to it and if you didn&#039 ; t pay the poll tax by the deadline, then you couldn&#039 ; t vote that year. This was. . . poll taxes was payable every year whether there was an election or not. But, then poll taxes are $1.50 to civilians that had no military and poll tax was to poor, a lot of times couldn&#039 ; t afford to pay the money for poll tax because food was a problem, housing was a problem, so this way, a lot of poor people didn&#039 ; t get a chance to even register to vote and even if they registered they couldn&#039 ; t pay the poll tax, they still couldn&#039 ; t vote. HUNTLEY: What was the purpose of the poll tax? PRICE: I don&#039 ; t know exactly what the state used it for, but they charged people to vote that&#039 ; s all I can say. I wouldn&#039 ; t be correct, because I don&#039 ; t know the voter registrars receive the poll taxes, but what they used it for, I have no knowledge of it. HUNTLEY: Some have suggested that it was used to keep Black people from voting because there were many who could not afford it. PRICE: It might have been, but I can&#039 ; t say for definitely it was. HUNTLEY: Okay. Well, I certainly appreciate your taking your time out of your busy schedule and coming and talk with us today, because what you have done for us, you&#039 ; ve helped us to put another piece of the puzzle together. PRICE: Thank you. HUNTLEY: And, we thank you for that time and you will be hearing from us again. PRICE: I appreciate you&#039 ; re having me. HUNTLEY: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=GPrice1995.xml GPrice1995.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource George Price Description An account of the resource George Price discusses working closely with Dr. King and Reverend Shuttlesworth, including helping to found ACMHR. His work focused largely on labor unions and voter registration. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19950324P Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-03-24 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video