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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
Interviewee
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Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=FLShuttlesworth1996_5.xml
Interview Keyword
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Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011
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5.4 December 10, 1996 Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth (1996) (5 of 5) 19961210S5 0:51:33 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth Horace Huntley Video 1:|18(10)|32(3)|42(12)|53(11)|64(8)|78(5)|90(13)|116(1)|125(4)|150(5)|168(9)|189(9)|212(3)|222(6)|236(9)|265(6)|278(11)|295(5)|306(9)|321(10)|330(1)|338(11)|357(2)|365(5)|376(1)|389(6)|398(13)|407(8)|416(13)|426(4)|436(9)|445(9)|455(4)|466(8)|473(16)|483(6)|491(12)|500(9)|508(5)|520(11)|532(14)|541(16)|551(9)|570(7)|596(8)|605(1)|613(5)|622(10)|633(4)|650(7)|666(5) 0 https://youtu.be/D-g0MfDuYjw YouTube video English Oral History Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth discusses leading the Birmingham Movement. Part 5 of 5. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. HUNTLEY: The second march- SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. HUNTLEY: From Selma to Montgomery. And you were there. SHUTTLESWORTH: I was there in all of it. We should' ; ve called the people to come from all over, because we had to have it out, you see. That if the policeman would beat the heck out of us marching, they would beat the heck out of priests, and nuns, and so forth. HUNTLEY: Oh my god. SHUTTLESWORTH: This presented one of the great dilemmas for our country at that time. And there are so many things we leaving out of this, and with Selma and all this stuff. But let' ; s get through this anyway. So, it was determined that the march had to be done. We met at the Brown Chapel, and we were getting together, and I remember one night when the Government Nations service being, what? 2:00 and 3:00 in the morning, we set up two days. SHUTTLESWORTH: Then we' ; re trying to convince Doctor King and others with us that we should not run. But you see, we had all these rabbis, and priests, and everybody. Several of them was looking at me. And we couldn' ; t go back. And I remember the government people trying to investigate us. HUNTLEY: This is the federal government? SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh yes. Federal agents says it' ; s wrong. So, finding a way that we could appease. I said, " ; We cannot appease the people," ; because we look like we would be justified. The power struck and even old women, he' ; s beat. And even the President of the United States had to speak out again. And I believe I was in the critical decision. Martin, and Ralph, and me, and several more of us, when we had to finally say, " ; We must go." ; Well, we had another problem. If you start out marching, we have to... They asked one of us to go to Montgomery. And this ended right across the bridge. HUNTLEY: It was just right- SHUTTLESWORTH: Which brings a lot of nuances that we have to discuss. So, we finally got started. And Governor Wallace let us get across the bridge. But as we had gotten across the bridge, we were over on the side that when traffic comes this way, meeting us. And I don' ; t know why it happened that way, but I do know that Wallace was setting up a confrontation where we would be in violation if we walked... Had we been on the other side of the road, it might' ; ve been different, but we had to decide... And all of us, still, they were really discussing... I' ; m going to be honest with you. And I realized some of the decisions that Doctor King... some of the problems he had. Or any leaders. Because sometime, you have to figure on the moment, what' ; s best to do. You can' ; t go and discuss... Now, the students wanted us to come back and discuss what we were going to do. Which you would' ; ve had to have anyway. If the police said that you' ; re under arrest, you can' ; t go back and discuss the lines stretched across the river. So, I went up front, and it just so happened that the law would have... I was going to be sure to be with Martin and Ralph, because I knew when we got across the river and face down, and I saw all those troops were standing. There were at least, what? Six or eight deep across. They were about half a mile, I guess, from the bridge. I can' ; t remember exactly now. And when I was on the bridge, I said, " ; Well Martin, a big decision' ; s got to be made." ; I said, " ; Now, you' ; re not going to go to Montgomery and see them." ; I said, " ; We have to make a decision. I don' ; t know whether you want to do what," ; with everybody, in particular, the students were rallying for us to go on, whether we go through the line or what, that was to Selma. So, we got up to the police, and as long as the police were battering to us, we weren' ; t going to walk through them anyway, in Montgomery. All of the sudden- HUNTLEY: But no decision had been made? SHUTTLESWORTH: No decision had been made. We were going to go as far as we could go. But we couldn' ; t walk through them, unless they moved out of the way. All of a sudden, they moved out, and they started moving out. And I said to Martin, " ; Now here, they' ; ve trapped the government. The government' ; s going to come back and get us for blocking traffic on the wrong side of the highway. We' ; d be better off if we were on the other side." ; I said, " ; You' ; ve got to make up your mind now to go back, and turn around, and try to get on the other side or something." ; And so, when they finally realized that they were gone, then Martin, I don' ; t think he even thought about this. [inaudible 00:06:05]. I said, " ; Does it appear to you they' ; re moving out voluntarily, so we faced our own rush of traffic. What do you do?" ; So, we made a decision. And you' ; ve got to make it now. And you can' ; t send one of us back to the end of the line. You' ; ve got to make it. And I think that' ; s when we stood there and prayed, and Martin said, " ; Well, there' ; s nothing to do but go back, because we can' ; t go through this traffic." ; And they were not... the troopers were not lined up to help us go through the traffic and hold the traffic. I said, " ; You see, they' ; re not with us. So, you have to decide what to do." ; I said, " ; It' ; s your decision to make, but I don' ; t see nothing we can do now, but go back, or go up, and then to," ; ... the governor tried us with obstruction of traffic. Ralph said the same thing. He said, " ; Well, if they don' ; t move the traffic over, then you can' ; t go." ; But it was beautiful what we did, but I was hurt and grimaced at the amount of- HUNTLEY: Of what? SHUTTLESWORTH: Of... there' ; s good people- HUNTLEY: Who have [inaudible 00:07:24] this [inaudible 00:07:25]. SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh yes. Oh. And particularly young people. HUNTLEY: Because I can remember seeing scenes of it, where you kneel to pray. SHUTTLESWORTH: I kneeled to pray. HUNTLEY: And Ralph prayed. SHUTTLESWORTH: Ralph prayed. HUNTLEY: And Martin was on his knees, and it obvious that you were trying to really contemplate it. SHUTTLESWORTH: And I was saying to him, " ; Now, you' ; re going to have to get up and just do what you have to do. You can decide for us go, and the government can try to," ; ... Segregationists were not above anything. They could' ; ve used any of those several traffic tricks to stop this march. And I said, " ; We' ; ve got to face it. You can ask them to move the traffic out the way." ; He said, " ; They' ; re not going to do it." ; And so, all that traffic was behind them. And you' ; ve seen the pictures. And they were at least, oh, I guess they were eight deep across that thing. So, all of the sudden, without anything, they just, " ; We' ; re gone." ; I said, " ; It' ; s in our hands. What do we do?" ; I said, " ; I don' ; t see nothing to do now, but to go back. Ask the man to help us and give us some directions, because if we want to go to Montgomery, we' ; ve got to have the applications." ; And they' ; re going off, not seeing any of this. It' ; s unthought of. And nobody came back and said anything to us, see. And that was unusual. HUNTLEY: You mean nobody like, all of- SHUTTLESWORTH: Nobody from the commander of the troopers. HUNTLEY: Nobody said anything? SHUTTLESWORTH: Nobody said anything to us. I said, " ; And here is the trouble. We' ; re going to have to face traffic. And how are you going to do that?" ; And with a trooper moving themselves off, where were we? And that decision right now, could be debated on and on. But all of us know you can' ; t walk through traffic, facing traffic. HUNTLEY: So, the decision then, he made the decision then, to turn around. SHUTTLESWORTH: We made it together. HUNTLEY: And as you made that decision to turn and go back, people started to follow you. And then, there was some commotion through the right. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, right. HUNTLEY: Younger people, who were saying that- SHUTTLESWORTH: Especially those younger people. And you can empathize with them. They had been blown up, beaten up on this very bridge. HUNTLEY: Oh okay. SHUTTLESWORTH: And so, when we left, we were saying, " ; We' ; re going to Montgomery." ; Not just going back across the bridge. It was a big let down, but it was the best we could do in our same situation. But I said to him, " ; We' ; re in danger of the governor charging us with blocking traffic. They' ; re not going to, unless they," ; ... Why did they move the traffic off? They could' ; ve moved traffic to the other side of the road. HUNTLEY: [inaudible 00:10:33]. SHUTTLESWORTH: I said, " ; And that' ; s just what we faced when we stepped down to them." ; I told them, " ; Fred, you' ; re right." ; I said, " ; The governor is going to sucker you into," ; ... But he said he could not defend our walking, facing the traffic. HUNTLEY: But you had faced situations similar to that, and defied the government. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. HUNTLEY: You, in Birmingham, faced it, with the injunctions and any number of things. SHUTTLESWORTH: I think if we had been on the other side of the road, I would have been- HUNTLEY: [inaudible 00:11:15]. SHUTTLESWORTH: But you have to look at where you are, and what you are. And how you... See, you have to justify, even with your own self, what you do. You live with yourself. You are a person. You are... Everybody, to some extent, is a little universe in themself. And we all have common interests, but if you' ; re up front, you have the problem. And so, a lot of people feel that Martin and me, we... for whatever. I don' ; t think anything else we could' ; ve done. HUNTLEY: No. SHUTTLESWORTH: I would' ; ve been glad. But I asked him. When we were going up, I asked him why did we come on that street. You know, when you get up on the bridge, you think you go two. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. And we were on this side, facing the traffic, oncoming. HUNTLEY: On the left side. SHUTTLESWORTH: And traffic was backed up behind them, if you look at the pictures. And they were eight deep, so we thought that they were going to stop us. So, we paused before we got to them, to decide what we were going to do. HUNTLEY: And then, eventually, the march did take place. SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, it did take place. Yeah. HUNTLEY: And that was another triumph. SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh yeah. Triumph. And because I think I ran two days. The day that Viola Liuzzo was killed, we about halfway then. I mean, and I had met her. Beautiful lady. She was picking up people, and I met her and spoke to her. Of course, she was there to meet me, because she was really [inaudible 00:12:55], there in Selma. And I had been on the road, and the day she was killed, I had been there a day or two before that. None of us could be all the way every day. HUNTLEY: Right, right. What was it like once the march actually made it to Montgomery? SHUTTLESWORTH: I think it was a moment of triumph. I couldn' ; t go much through the country, because I had to be other places, doing my own thing. But I made sure to be there the day when we got to this Catholic institute. I think they got there that night. So, I came in that night, and we had the musicians, and we had some sort of show there. Benefit. And the next day, we went and go on into Montgomery. And we marched into Montgomery, and people [inaudible 00:14:01] all the way out. I think it was a triumphant evening. And we marched in and marched up. And I still had the challenge that... the idea of challenge was in, there was a line of troopers that we couldn' ; t go up to the capital. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: So, my statement was, that I said we ought to go all the way up to the capital, and the next time we will. Something like that. But Martin was... I think that statement about, " ; Give us the ballot," ; or something. Tremendous speech. " ; Give us the ballot." ; HUNTLEY: I also... we need to talk about the march on Washington. SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, there were two. We had Prayer Pilgrimage, you remember. HUNTLEY: Right, yeah. SHUTTLESWORTH: Which was... we started in my room at the motel. That was the Prayer Pilgrimage. What year was that? And then, the march. HUNTLEY: The big march in ' ; 63. SHUTTLESWORTH: In ' ; 63. But we went to Pilgrimage in, what was it? ' ; 57, wasn' ; t it? HUNTLEY: Yeah, it was ' ; 57. SHUTTLESWORTH: I mean, yeah. HUNTLEY: ' ; 57 or ' ; 58. SHUTTLESWORTH: I think it was. Yeah, and the Prayer Pilgrimage was the first thing. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And people used to think that Martin was... And I did, too, for a second... Was given to... went in the city, sometime at the time when you need forthright speeches. Martin was [inaudible 00:15:36], where do we go from here? Or something. A. Philip Randolph and- HUNTLEY: Rustin? SHUTTLESWORTH: Rustin. [inaudible 00:15:52], so we weren' ; t talking. And actually, this is [inaudible 00:15:56]. And I said, " ; No, I think we can be in it. And if I' ; m going to be in it, we have to go ahead and do it then." ; So, we did that in May of ' ; 57. The other one came after Victory in ' ; 63. HUNTLEY: Yeah, that' ; s right. [inaudible 00:16:16] was in ' ; 63. SHUTTLESWORTH: We had walked in Birmingham prior to any of that. HUNTLEY: Sure. That' ; s right. Really, that seemed to have been part of a victory celebration. SHUTTLESWORTH: It was, it kind of [inaudible 00:16:33]. And I think that speech, somebody asked me about it, was God trying to speak to people? I really think King was at his best. I don' ; t think there will ever be another one, however large, that would have more meaning, or more symbolism, or more essence that people need to get, than that day in 1963. HUNTLEY: That was the last march. That was the one on 16th Street at the church. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. The plan was determined that we had a victory, but it wouldn' ; t be a victory. And that we had a victory, but our joy would be short lived, in the sense of exulting and shouting. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And the reaction always is possible in human lives. It' ; s the telling of it, he doesn' ; t want good people, the goodness to fly. In fact... Excuse me. HUNTLEY: Bless you. SHUTTLESWORTH: By sinus bothers me. The whole epic of human progress is built on action and reaction. And the enemies were already in [inaudible 00:18:21]. And you see, one of the problems with people who mean well, that we all look out, and watch, and anticipate, I would suspect that in hindsight... And maybe we wouldn' ; t do it today, but in hindsight, we should' ; ve been with that government, and then faith should' ; ve been the path for them. In the wake of victory. That the Klan would just be the Klan. HUNTLEY: Do would they would- SHUTTLESWORTH: Do what they would do. And especially in places like the motel, and 16th Street, just where we had been meeting, and even Bethel, that day, wouldn' ; t have been guarded, and it wouldn' ; t have taken a whole lot of people to do it. HUNTLEY: That' ; s true. SHUTTLESWORTH: One other thing we haven' ; t talked about, and I don' ; t necessarily think that any interview had to be so much about me, but the second bombing in Bethel' ; s Church is a part of history that there' ; s much known about. And that' ; s the timer. I don' ; t want to get into this, until you get ready. HUNTLEY: That' ; s fine. Let' ; s do that. Let' ; s do that. SHUTTLESWORTH: And it comes out of what I' ; m saying here now. That second bombing in ' ; 58, the Klan was intending to... they basically, again, they just set them at Phillips High School. So, in ' ; 58, they would determine, if they couldn' ; t kill me trying these, [inaudible 00:20:04], so I wouldn' ; t have these robberies. And that' ; s [inaudible 00:20:09]. How should I say this? J. Edgar Hoover and the federal government [inaudible 00:20:22] supposing to have to be blamed for much of what has happened in the deep south. Especially here in Birmingham. Including the 16th Street one. They [inaudible 00:20:33] who blamed into it. And it ought to be, even now, an investigation into it. But it so happened that J.B. Stoner was finally arrested 22 years after this second bombing. Stoner called me and asked me would I come down and be his witness. I said, " ; Well, what did I witness?" ; Nothing but the fact that he asked me, I said, " ; No, I' ; ll come down myself. I don' ; t need to come down with you, taking me down." ; That' ; s the only conversation I had with him. But we with a foolish judge... And this is, it is 22 years later, justice now. And we learned then, that Stoner justified the same thing. This is why much of what' ; s in Birmingham and happened in the deep south, when they were doing it, should be immediately investigated. Even right now. And in this court room that day, Mr. Stoner testified that Bull Connor and the L.B.I. team sat in the First Baptist Church, up in one of the offices, overlooking the lot on which Bull Connor' ; s men and J.B. Stoner made a deal. And this came after... Yeah, this is why I think the Lord wants this entered in history. You remember that there were 55 sticks of dynamite found in this big Jewish thing up there, in what do you call that area? HUNTLEY: In the- SHUTTLESWORTH: Coming down that hill. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: I forget... they call it a name. I can' ; t think of it right now. All the white folks live in there. And I said God was merciful, because that... 55- HUNTLEY: It' ; s up on Highland. SHUTTLESWORTH: Highland, yes. If that 55 sticks of dynamite had gone off, and that explosive effect had rolled down that, it would' ; ve slain people. And most are white. God was merciful. After that blast, that' ; s what forced, I understand, this meeting. That the Klan said, " ; You' ; ve got to get with us. You' ; ve got to get with us, because this is coming home." ; You see? To white folks. Too close. So, this is when Bull was sitting there, and they were negotiating with Craig. With Stoner. And his testimony was that they would pay him to bomb my church. Destroy it. To fire bombs set against the wall. And if I didn' ; t get out of town after that, they would pay him $10,000 to get up somewhere and just kill me. And when he said that, that day, it was so shocking. All of the cameras turned on me, and I' ; m sitting on the front row. So, I just smiled, because I had come through that 22 years. And of course, Mr. [inaudible 00:24:20] got 10 years, I believe it was. Whatever it was. But this showed that officials were involved. That the FBI had knowledge of it, and my life was expendable, even to them. Look at how many failures that they made. Look at how many attempts to [inaudible 00:24:42] me down, or kill me to get me out of there. I' ; ve been to jail, even, yet all of it, I rose on top of it. And I' ; m sitting here today, nearly 75 years old, never expected to live 40 years older than this thing. Surely, God is able. And surely, God could bring me here. People need to think about that. HUNTLEY: There have been a number of reports, even books, on 1968, with the assassination of Doctor King, and the assassination of Robert Kennedy. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. HUNTLEY: And there have been some conspiracy theories, of course. What' ; s your reaction to those? SHUTTLESWORTH: Just like there was some knowledge of, or implications of participating in the thing, which I just told you about. This Klan thing. After that 55 sticks of dynamite. There was more, perhaps, in why the participation in, the government and police officials. You see, the south never forgave Kennedy for wanting civil rights action. And you can never know exactly what the CIA did or did not do. I do not know. I do know that they did a raid, because I done go to London and got passes, and this, and that, and the other, without somebody knowing about it. How could they get the passes? How could they get the flights? So, I would not... While I don' ; t try to play God. Never have. But I know that all their men came flying to go to London and get passes, and passports and this and that. There has to be. And then, I was... There was a police official talking one day about what happened in Memphis. That they knew that Doctor King was coming, and they knew that situation was heightened. And they had this on the air. I was listening in, that this police official questioned why they had to move him off his post of duty at a certain time, before Martin Luther King was killed. I don' ; t even remember the man' ; s name at this time. There have been, and there are still reasons, I think, to question, if you look into what has happened. So, to answer your question, do I think there have been at least some involvement in Kennedy and King' ; s death? Absolutely. Yes. Because these people would have carried this country forward in human rights, before the conservative right, or whatever that name is called. Would have sent in and slowed down. And had Robert Kennedy been elected president, we would have been further ahead than what we are. And if you ask my honest impression, I think God knew that he was there. And he knew it was true, sometimes limit things, as well as some die, too. [inaudible 00:28:34]. And no man, however popular, or however strong, will never be God. We move into his [inaudible 00:28:46] history and do things, and we go. You see, the Tower of Babel, way back there, was done, as a matter of fact, that nobody' ; s going to build up, the way you can get to heaven was on your own. And God frustrates the essence of men at times, so that there' ; s always... And I guess I' ; m philosophying. But everybody has a philosophy. Mine comes from thinking, at least. There will always be a need to struggle. There will always... goodness is a goal, a concept that people have to strive at. It just ain' ; t going to come, because it' ; s hard when you' ; re bad. There are a whole lot of war and sin. And then, shake a neighbor' ; s hand and [inaudible 00:29:43]. But that the God of this universe, his purpose is, in all generations, and in many situations, not necessarily all of them, he proposed that in doing certain thing, that you know it had to be God. It had to be God to keep me out in the government. See? It had to be God that do certain things. And so, no man can be God. But he wants people to, it seems to me, to live conscious of that, that you can relate your life to him, and have a better movement, tone that goes with goodness and perfecting. Which is always elusive. Just like holiness. We' ; ll be offered holy when we see God' ; s face, but we are holy now, to the extent that we are trying to be holy. So, he helps us. And I don' ; t know whether that' ; s out of order, but it' ; s what I feel. He, as much as we needed Robert Kennedy... And I look at, I' ; ll go on and this sends me right on the train. And I was moved at the people who stood by the railroad track. One man got killed, as you recall, by that train. Got too close or something. They moved on, though. And I was there when his brother, Ted, did his eulogy and all. But I was requested because I had worked with him. But I saw the pathos, the sadness, the sorrow at a lack of fulfillment in people. There' ; s always going to be some of that, because God wants us to look up, but only he can do the real fulfilling. We can just do a little of it and move on. And I think if Robert had been able to be president, we would' ; ve been a little bit closer to saying no than some of our laws would not be [inaudible 00:32:02] again, and the attempt of the right wing to roll back, wouldn' ; t be as quite as... as it is now. But on the other hand, I look at it as we have nothing [inaudible 00:32:16] what he wants to do. And he' ; s going to leave himself a lot to do with our lives, as we know. And that' ; s in, even in the school system. The institutions like this, where you' ; re trying to tell people to look into stuff, look at what has happened, and think about how much you can do better. That' ; s his way. But all the people need to be helped. And finally, we can not will to do good without that coming fresh from above. Remember that. So, I' ; m gladified that I have been used in the flesh, which I guess, it' ; s a gumption by the spirit, to give myself as best I could, for the good. I would never profess to be a perfect man. But I have tried to do good. It' ; s in the bible, " ; Trust that you' ; ll always do good, and so shall I trust in the name." ; And we have to teach... If we can be able to teach people these basic elementary facts, and let them know that they are, after all, to relate themselves to a higher being, and to each other. We begin a for real perspective. HUNTLEY: What did the death of Doctor Martin Luther King mean to the [inaudible 00:33:49]? SHUTTLESWORTH: I have a feeling that he had done what God had for him to do at that time, and moved him on up higher. I felt mine was to be cut off back then, but I understand now that it is, to some degree, not to the degree I' ; d like to, try to give interpretation and encouragement, and living now in Selma. I' ; m all but one of the Big Three that' ; s still living now. Well, I think Doctor King' ; s time had come. And when... as I told you, I was sitting in my church choir' ; s... I was sitting in my office and the choir was rehearsing, when the word had came. And my feeling, initially, was that he had done his best. He' ; d done his job, and that he had been used by God, and leased to speak to the nation. Now, you hear and don' ; t heed, then the response to it is [inaudible 00:35:05] God, and there, what I witnessed. And if God' ; s judgment comes, even neighbors that had to be true and righteous, or yeah, you suffer because you could have or should have, and did nothing. It' ; s the same with the nations. See, I exist in the nation like a drop in the bucket. So, like he did with [inaudible 00:35:28], he did with the nations. HUNTLEY: The SCLC, after his death, had some difficulties. How did those play out, from your vantage point, as being a key person to his message? SHUTTLESWORTH: To extend it out and lead it, and participate in getting it out is key. I never figured that, that was key, because I always would be a friend to Martin, to be a leader in Martin, and you know that C.K. Steele should' ; ve been the next president. And I think that might' ; ve been a mistake, because all he wanted to have, he wanted to have followers. Martin and Ralph were so close, and I think Ralph wanted to secede Martin. And Martin and Ralph were so close in everything. And Ralph and Martin prevailed on them both, because I felt like, that C.K. Steele rightly should' ; ve been the first. And we might have gotten a slight different... History is always before us. You look back and see what might have happened. You know, no. But Martin pleaded with the board to make Ralph the next president in line. And I always thought that was not the best. And C.K. Steele took it, and I always admired him for that, because he was ruled with pressure. Well, when Ralph got it, when Martin died, and this is not to take anything from anybody else. No man is God. But Ralph was the most insecure president that you could find. Although, he wanted it, there was always an insecurity about Ralph, and I don' ; t want to stay except to say that Ralph would slip and cry at times when he ought to been making decisions, I mean about simple things, that' ; s far enough to get into that. Ralph' ; s idea that as president of SCLC, just to being president of SCLC, would command loyalties and command progress, it wouldn' ; t. And I' ; ll give you this example so that you can see I am not misstating it cause I wouldn' ; t do that. One day when Ralph was president and activities had died down and wasn' ; t much being said, Ralph couldn' ; t a headline hardly anywhere, Ralph called an emergency for me to come to New York City. Always I have tried to, if Martin or Ralph called, I would go. So I put down everything I had and caught the next plane they had arranged. I went, and it take an hour to get from the airport. The white man that was so close to Martin, I can' ; t think of his name now. HUNTLEY: Levison, was that the one? SHUTTLESWORTH: Levison, yeah, Harry Wachtel, and Levison? HUNTLEY: Levison. SHUTTLESWORTH: Levison, I think it was Stanley. There were two Negroes, I can' ; t think of their names right now. When I walked into the room, Ralph was glad I came, and Ralph had one of these, that small paper that' ; s so thick, the Daily World, is it, Daily News? And he was sitting in a chair, and he had his hand, I guess they told him I was coming by, and I could tell when I went in the building the people there, particularly the white person and one of the other Negroes were distressed. Something was in the room so thick you could cut it. I said, Well, Ralph, here I am, what is it you want, you know I' ; ve always come when you called, try to put myself, so he didn' ; t say anything at first, and I looked around, and I think this young white fellow, this white man, he wasn' ; t young, he was distressed that he hadn' ; t said, so I said, well, I' ; m here so what is it that you need? I thought he was gone pick up some drive or something. And he was almost on the verge of tears, so he flipped open the page, it' ; s either on page 97 or 107, something like that, and he flipped open the page, no, he said, we' ; ve got to find a way to bury Martin Luther King. This is history, so, you know. I said, How do mean that, Ralph? I say, we' ; ve got to find a way to bury Martin Luther King. I said, Ralph, I' ; m sorry to hear you say that, I don' ; t think you should ever say that. Were it not for Martin Luther King you wouldn' ; t be where you are today. And look like you could see those people lifting up since I am saying these things to him. And I said, so he flipped open the paper, he said, Look where the president of SCLC is. Little thing about that, wasn' ; t five lines thick in a column, way back on page 97 or 107, something like that, way back in there. Said, Look where the president of SCLC is. Well, I' ; ve always been straight and nice as I could. I said, Well, Ralph, I said, I' ; m sorry to hear you say that about Martin and don' ; t ever say that. I said, you' ; re on page 97 because you' ; re not doing page 1 action. See, this is what I' ; ve said to you. I said, Remember when we were in the encampment there and you talking about we gone stay on the Mall that camp all day, I said, you knew we couldn' ; t do that, you should have said that and been making plans to let folks march out instead of being driven out by tear gas. I said, that' ; s what Martin would have done. And some church had offered us, as I understand. I had been, I went up one night cause I never did want to go to the tent city too much, and I had decided I was going to, if necessary, go check with Ralph and stay out there in the city if it would help to do morale, because they didn' ; t have discipline, as you know, like they should have. And I hate to say this, but Ralph was in a motel room and Ralph had at least ten to twelve phones on this thing, I don' ; t know why so many phones, a lot of them. And so when I walked in to talk to Ralph, let him know I had come up and if he had any ideas about this and that, Ralph was so busy that I guess he spoke less than thirty words to me. HUNTLEY: After calling you from-- SHUTTLESWORTH: No, no, no, this is another thing now, this is during the tent campaign. That' ; s all that happened in this thing. HUNTLEY: Oh, okay. SHUTTLESWORTH: I just told him I said don' ; t you ever, you do anything you can to lift up Martin' ; s name. HUNTLEY: Yeah, there in New, why was he in New York at that time? SHUTTLESWORTH: This was during the tent city. HUNTLEY: No, no, I mean-- SHUTTLESWORTH: Resurrection City. HUNTLEY: During the time that when he called you. SHUTTLESWORTH: This was after that. HUNTLEY: Okay, well, why was he in New York? SHUTTLESWORTH: I really don' ; t know except that he was there, he might have been there for some-- HUNTLEY: But he wanted you to come up for that-- SHUTTLESWORTH: For that, just that little thing. And I don' ; t know whether he had plans for something to be presented to the board so we could do this and that, but Ralph felt insecure, he never felt the-- HUNTLEY: Well, you know, the book that he wrote and the controversy that was evoked as a result of that, how did you read that? SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, they naturally were gone call me, and I was upset, I was shocked by it, because I thought that he could written a better book as the nonviolent leader explaining nonviolence to people, talking about that, rather than salacious situations, which everybody had done on TV and other things. And I thought it was sickening and I thought it was somebody who had some book publisher, some person who had gotten in with them who wanted to bring King' ; s mud out, and nobody to better validate, who better than Ralph? And I thought there was money involved, and I understand there was. And I understand that, I think Ralph thought the book would make a killing but the book flubbed, as God would have it. And of course, you know, I was in, Jesse Hill from Atlanta Life, Bishop and several of us who went up to Washington and made a statement that we had hoped and prayed that such wouldn' ; t be, but that Bernard had said he was there that night, you know. And of course my statement was that I was sorry that such a thing had to be, and you must understand that Ralph didn' ; t live long after that. And if I have had anything that distressed me deeply it was Ralph on national news trying to justify the book, and what he said was, and I listened at this, Martin wasn' ; t no saint. Well, nobody' ; s a saint. And what is a saint but a sinner saved by grace and trying to live right? And I thought, and they just really did him so bad, and I really think that was part of his stroke, I think it was such an utter __?__ and yet it might be poetic justice. Nobody had done more for Ralph. Ralph' ; s name would not have been in history except for Martin. And Ralph got into a situation in Montgomery, the first time Martin went to jail was because of Ralph' ; s problems with __?__ in Montgomery, as I understand it. So I thought the book was a terrible thing. I would have wished that he would have said something to young folks and explained some of these things, some things I have tried to say in this interview, explained about how God kept us through, He brought us even on the Mississippi road. Did you know, and I don' ; t want to go back into it, but on the Mississippi march, you know them white men were marching, were driving around there with guns in their thing. And on one situation, I' ; ll just say this, and Ralph could have made this real to folks, Ralph and Martin was there, and I always took the front position when, like when we were there, like we were in Montgomery, when we integrated, the man come up and struck Martin, I was right there to keep him from striking him again. But on this road, Mississippi road, one guy, they were building a highway, and he had gotten off the highway, this was a road that we were on, and he just in a truck bore down on us, it looked like we were a goner. So I didn' ; t jump out of the way of it. And I saw Martin look up with that look of resignation in his, and said, well, if he gone kill us ain' ; t nothing we can do, so he didn' ; t try to jump out the way and neither did I and the truck came I guess as close to my leg, cause I was the point man, as this, and slid on brakes. Then he put it in reverse and backed away and went on, intimidation. We didn' ; t know. So we were in God' ; s hands, and you' ; re still in God' ; s hands. And I think there were so many things a book could point out to people, and make people realize that we got Somebody to help us live this life, bad as it is or whatever. HUNTLEY: Reverend, you have spent two days with me, telling me everything-- SHUTTLESWORTH: (Laughing) I' ; m tiring you out from looking. HUNTLEY: No, but you have, obviously, as you come into town, what I' ; m going to do now is go back and listen to these. SHUTTLESWORTH: Okay. HUNTLEY: And I' ; m sure there are going to be questions that I' ; ll have, so as you come in town periodically, what I' ; d like to do is sit down and maybe take an hour with you and sort of concretize what we' ; ve done here. SHUTTLESWORTH: That' ; ll be fine. Concretize, and probably questions will be raised, even out of this about other things, you know, for instance, I could tell you about incidents like St. Augustine, Florida, how we integrated the thing, or how Sheriff Hoss Manucy at St. Augustine, Florida. St. Augustine the oldest state in the union, you know. Oldest city. HUNTLEY: Oldest city, yeah. SHUTTLESWORTH: And the flea market is there, all of this. Danville, Virginia, I' ; ve been a lot of places and I' ; ll be glad to talk with you at any time and I appreciate your desire and I hope it benefits the program of the Institute. I' ; d like for people both white and Black to know what the struggle has been thus far and I believe people are inspired, you know it' ; s an amazing thing but you' ; d be surprised how when people sit down and listen to you it helps them sometimes when they don' ; t have courage, it gives them a little bit. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And I' ; ve had white people come to my office and with tears in their eyes, say, I' ; m going to be a better man. I' ; ve got wall, plaques around my walls I don' ; t even have room, keys of all kinds, but that to me is small stuff, I' ; m looking for my name to be on the roll in heaven. That' ; s what we all better look for. HUNTLEY: (Laughing) That' ; s right. Again, thank you very much. SHUTTLESWORTH: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
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Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth (1996) (5 of 5)
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Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth discusses leading the Birmingham Movement. Part 5 of 5.
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19961210S5
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Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham
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1996-12-10
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth
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Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011
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5.4 December 10, 1996 Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth (1996) (4 of 5) 19961210S4 02:02:09 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth Horace Huntley Video 1:|13(4)|25(3)|37(14)|55(10)|64(1)|79(9)|91(3)|105(5)|115(1)|130(9)|142(8)|159(13)|176(1)|190(8)|203(2)|215(7)|223(10)|239(5)|257(3)|268(5)|278(12)|292(1)|310(5)|331(3)|347(3)|357(5)|374(4)|390(14)|403(7)|412(1)|420(9)|432(12)|441(5)|450(2)|463(9)|472(6)|485(2)|494(8)|504(7)|514(1)|522(13)|540(4)|554(1)|569(9)|580(6)|597(1)|609(4)|619(6)|632(3)|647(11)|659(2)|671(7)|681(6)|691(15)|707(8)|718(1)|727(3)|738(8)|747(1)|756(7)|764(9)|778(2)|787(12)|797(10)|810(6)|818(12)|833(2)|840(4)|849(18)|858(4)|873(7)|883(3)|892(7)|907(16)|922(13)|940(3)|953(1)|963(12)|972(12)|987(7)|998(8)|1013(10)|1022(11)|1035(6)|1046(1)|1054(16)|1064(13)|1078(14)|1093(1)|1106(1)|1119(1)|1135(3)|1145(10)|1158(13)|1175(5)|1183(4)|1195(6)|1204(10)|1213(5)|1224(9)|1245(15)|1257(5)|1274(4)|1285(11)|1299(9)|1317(4)|1335(3)|1343(10)|1354(14)|1366(14)|1376(11)|1392(9)|1399(8)|1410(12)|1422(6)|1432(15)|1444(12)|1453(8)|1465(10)|1477(9)|1491(2)|1505(6) 0 https://youtu.be/V1fCySnImOQ YouTube video English Oral History Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth discusses leading the Birmingham Movement. Part 4 of 5. SHUTTLESWORTH: Is it on? HUNTLEY: Yeah. SHUTTLESWORTH: So, I said to them, My brethren, the Bible say, let us be brethren. I said, We have different outlooks and interpretations of what' ; s going on. I said, We don' ; t have to be enemies. I said, What I came to say was, two things, number one, we are glad to see the ministers organized and hope that you will do something. And anything that you want to start action, we will automatically endorse it. The Alabama Christian Movement will automatically, you have our automatic endorsement, you don' ; t have to ask us. I say, on the other thing, now listen, Dr. Williams, I' ; m not consumed by what people say about me. I said, And I' ; m gonna be brothers regardless. I said, But the people want action and somebody' ; s got to give it to them. I said, Now, I' ; m not asking you to do what I do because I know about the Klan and I' ; m not afraid of the Klan -- I' ; m not saying you are -- I said, but take my position, and this is it from kin to can' ; t, if God tells me to jump it' ; s my place to jump and his place to fix a place for me to land. And I said, I know that isn' ; t what most people do, I said, but I think God would look worse telling me to jump and not fixing a place for me to land, than I would for jumping in faith, so it' ; s mine to jump, and so whatever you all do, just remember that, we gone do what we think we must do, we gone fight segregation whether you like it or not, whether you go with us or not. And that did a lot to them because we were on the verge of Dr. King coming in, you know, and King tried to apologize to them for not asking them, but I had to get back up and say, Now, Dr. King is speaking and he hopes that he can get you, but you can' ; t, you have to be truthful. Actually, if you had voted for him to come in he couldn' ; t have come in, but he' ; s here because the Alabama Christian Movement asked him, and we hope to have your cooperation. I didn' ; t make any, I never believed in just lying, you have to, King was trying to sort of apologize for not asking them, saying to them, we' ; re coming in. HHUNTLEY: You had actually invited him to come. SHUTTLESWORTH: I invited him to come, and said that, As Birmingham goes, so goes the nation, that we' ; ve got the citadel of segregation and Bull Connor is the symbol, and if you come, and remember Mr. Connor been talking about the jail, I said, We can actually fill the jails up, ' ; cause the, and really, Birmingham was the strongest affiliate. HHUNTLEY: Birmingham was the strongest affiliate? SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, yeah. Montgomery didn' ; t do too much, you know. But Birmingham, we always were doing something here, in jail, we always kept the headlines, you know. So, we agreed I believe the end of ' ; 62 to come, and here comes the meeting with Sid Smyer and others, you want that don' ; t you? HHUNTLEY: Yes, because they had really determined that they were not going to recognize you, right? SHUTTLESWORTH: They had not. The only time I met the power structure in this city, despite the fact that my church had been bombed twice, was bombed in ' ; 56 and ' ; 58, second bombing, when the Klan set the bomb against the wall trying to destroy the church, and Colonel Johnson and John L. Lewis set it in the street and it dug a six foot hole in the street, it would have caved the walls in, and I wouldn' ; t have had a base to operate -- here again, God decrees things. The, when they knew that SCLC was coming in, Lucius Pitts, Gaston and some of the others. And remember I was friends with all of them. It wasn' ; t a matter that we were enemies. (Talk about tape). SHUTTLESWORTH: Sid Smyer, see, they had met, and you must remember that this power structure had a knack of meeting with people like Gaston and Pitts and others, and thought that they represented the Negroes, but Mr. Gaston, I understand, told them, they said in the meeting when I first went there, said, Well, just like I told you, Mr. Smyer, I got some money, said, but Fred' ; s got the people, he could (?) tomorrow and you haven' ; t talked with him, so that' ; s how I met them. HUNTLEY: So that' ; s how you got to meet them. SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, yeah. So then Mr. Smyer wanted to give me the great honor, yeah, we' ; re glad to meet you and this and that. I said, Well, I' ; m not too sure that you' ; re happy to meet me, ' ; cause my church been bombed twice and I ain' ; t never heard or met with you gentlemen. (?) And wanted to call me doctor, and I went on and I said, well, we don' ; t need the amenities, we are here to find out what you can do. Well, we want to see if we can keep Dr. King out of here. And I just simply said, ' ; Mr. Smyer, I' ; m surprised at you.' ; All around the city at this time, it was signs, It' ; s so nice to have you in Birmingham. I said, ' ; We believe that King is nice enough to come here too.' ; Well [imitating Smyer], I, I, I, I think he' ; s a nice man but we just don' ; t want no demonstrations. I said, ' ; Well, what can you do to prevent demonstrations?' ; I said, ' ; because otherwise I' ; d be wasting my time, I' ; m trying to fight segregation.' ; So that first meeting, as I recall, they were saying that they couldn' ; t make commitments, so finally I said, We' ; re wasting time, then, there' ; s nothing for us to talk about. I think first initially we left, but they called back the very next day, and King and Abernathy, I' ; m not sure they went there the first time, and on that side with them, Louis Pizitz, the stores where those young people were arrested, Louis Pizitz was there especially, and the man from Loveman' ; s. HUNTLEY: Was it true that the Birmingham business community actually sent a delegation to Atlanta to meet with Martin before they even talked with you and Martin sent them back saying you have to talk with Fred? SHUTTLESWORTH: I heard that but I wouldn' ; t put anything above them. But Martin knew that first of all, his hopes and the hopes of the Movement depended on what my Movement and I would do. This isn' ; t to say that we are so important but there are just times when things are designed to happen in this place or that place, and there are people destined to assume the stage at that moment. I had heard about that, I didn' ; t put too much credence in it because I never even asked Martin about it, but SCLC needed Birmingham, especially after Albany. HUNTLEY: After Albany, that' ; s right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And they had already known that Bull Connor and all the Klan hadn' ; t stopped us from going. And then you must remember now, we' ; re in ' ; 62, but in ' ; 58, there were some incidents that you should know that helped to crystallize Martin' ; s opinion that Birmingham was the place, and I' ; ll just give them to you here, so we can get into that and you can-- We were meeting at St. James Baptist Church down there, and this is where Bull was going to use the fire chief to stampede the meetings. So we, Martin was sitting there, St. James, balcony and all, it was packed. Martin was here and several others, visiting from Montgomery. Bill Shortridge was giving a financial report, and I' ; m sitting there, and all of a sudden, the flashing lights come down, and then another thing, they would have somebody inside, and what we say inside could be heard outside, what you call those things, mikes, whatever? HUNTLEY: P. A. systems, megaphones? SHUTTLESWORTH: Police, yeah, whatever we were saying inside could be heard outside. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. SHUTTLESWORTH: But we weren' ; t, didn' ; t have anything to hide. So the chief, so one time there were two policemen came, not the chief, and they would come and stand up so that we' ; d have the aisles packed and then they wanted to tell us to ask the people to get out the aisles, where are they going? So we opened a church around the corner and had a half a church full of folks there. So I got up, I said, Well, what' ; s happening? He said, Well, Reverend, we want the aisles cleared. I said, Alright, alright. So then as soon as we had got the aisles cleared, then they come back in and standing up. So Bill went back up to talk, I said, Just a minute, Bill. I said, Gentlemen, where in the hell do y' ; all think this is? If we can' ; t stand in the aisles, you can' ; t stand in the aisles, get the hell out of the church and bring them back. And boy, the folks just (claps), this is how you kept the spirit up, you know. So they said, Oh, oh, oh, we' ; re sorry, so they had to go out that night. Else we would have got the people who had just put out. Martin said, Fred, I don' ; t see how you, the Movement is really strong in this city. I said, It' ; s stronger than that, Martin. So I believe it was in the next month or the next two weeks they were up here again, Chief Knox himself came. And we were in the same church, it wasn' ; t over a month difference, that' ; s the place where __?__ Billups put his hand up and the police arrested him for touching an officer, interfering. So Martin was there that night and so Chief Knox comes down, so finally the Fire Department comes in, you know, and they wanted to come in with their hats on, you know, walking through, and Bill was talking, I said, Bill, just a minute, so I got up and I said, Now, gentlemen, I said, Now the fire that you all are trying to put out is not in here and you know it, you can' ; t put this fire out. I said, But what we' ; ll do, we' ; ll cooperate, I said, Everybody look around here and see if you see anything under your seat, they looking for a bomb, I said, Let them come look, I said, Will y' ; all hurry up and come look and get the hell out ' ; cause we' ; re gone have our meeting. People just (claps). So then Chief Knox comes down and I said, Chief, now we are just about tired of this. I said, We' ; re just tired of Bull Connor harassing us. Reverend, I assure you -- now I' ; m standing up and he' ; s down in the aisle, you know, I would we had a picture of that -- he said, Reverend, I assure you, you know all over New York and everywhere else they have fire codes. I said, Well, we' ; ve been trying to obey, but your men come down here, they want us to get out of the aisle and they stand in them and we ain' ; t gone do that. I said, In fact, Chief -- I' ; m deciding to shoot the works, you know -- I say, I think I' ; m just tired of Bull Connor harassing us and I think, Tonight, I said, Do you have any room in your jail? I said, ' ; Cause we about ready. I said, We just about, how many y' ; all ready to go to jail? Everybody ready tonight? I said, We just tired of this damn harassment, aren' ; t we? And the folks just stood up. I said, Chief, you got room for all these? Reverend, I assure you that it isnt' ; Bull Connor harassing you, (laughter) we' ; re just simply trying to do fire code. I said, Chief, are you sure that -- I' ; m just rubbing it in -- I said, Chief, are you sure that Bull ain' ; t sent you down here to do this and that? Reverend, I raise my hand, I assure you. I said, Alright, Chief, tell you what, we gone obey the order. But tell Bull we are just damn tired of them harassing us. Well, this gets folks, you know, it does something. HUNTLEY: You used that, really, to your advantage. SHUTTLESWORTH: To my advantage, and to let folks know that we can assert in a certain way. And Martin was there both times, and he couldn' ; t understand, he said, Boy, I couldn' ; t have done that. I said, Yes you could have, if you were __?__, but Martin __?__, and he couldn' ; t have, but I just said that to him. But, I always had charge of the situation and I had a ready answer, and I anticipated, I think that' ; s probably one of the things, I never was surprised at what the segregationsts did. The only time I was surprised by them was like, been so many incidents and I don' ; t want to-- HUNTLEY: Well, the incidents is what makes the story, so any of incidents please feel free to share. SHUTTLESWORTH: I' ; ll just leave that for the moment but to show you, you know I told you I was never surprised. But they would come up to me, like one day came up to the church, you know I was arrested about, at least three times on a vagrancy warrant -- I' ; m a full time pastor. It so happened that a schoolteacher was out about three o' ; clock in the morning, had some liquor in the car. And the police had stopped the car, there she had the liquor, and they could __?__, so they made her have sex with both of them. HUNTLEY: Oh, is that right? SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, yeah. She came the next day and told me. I talked to the chief there while she was in my office. I always try to be above board, it wasn' ; t a thing that I tried to harass them unnecessarily. So the chief wanted to know, why did she come to you. I said, Because she felt like if she come to you, you wouldn' ; t do nothing about it. And they had told her to come back the next night, wanted some more, you know. And so I told the chief all of this and we arranged, chief, I don' ; t know whether he told them not to come, you never know, but she did go back out, but we had at least five cars around. HUNTLEY: Watching. SHUTTLESWORTH: Watching. But the police, they had gone through there just before she got there, as I recall, but they never came back. So then, for that and the next week they said that somebody had, claimed to say that somebody had done some pulling of somebody' ; s genitalia, that is not me but I reported it to them, you understand, that what people would say to me, and make sure that people were not lying. So they get me on a vagrancy warrant. So whenever they wanted to prevent something, ' ; cause they know I was in action, they' ; d put me in jail on a vagrancy warrant, you can' ; t get a bond. And I was in jail, I think at least, what, two or three times. And I was looking at some papers here the other day where Mr. Shores had filed something against them for arresting me on vagrancy, and the FBI had something about it in its file. But you could expect them to do anything, it' ; s just that you were alert and that you had to be prepared. So we come into this idea now of the second meeting, Smyer. And I was, I sort of, you know, I could have acted nasty, and even Miles College President Pitts, he was surprised at how nice I was and how gentle and yet how firm. He said, you know, Fred, people got the impression that you are mean, tough, he said, but I couldn' ; t have done like you. Now, I said, well, you know, in a fight people say anything, and they were acting like they left it, you know read people now say about the middle class, and I always regard the middle class as people who are blessed, and I didn' ; t necessarily consider myself one of them, but I never had any enemies in the middle class. I just knew segregation had to be wrong, and so John Drew, the man that had the insurance company, what his name? HUNTLEY: That was Drew. SHUTTLESWORTH: No, Drew had insurance, now his daughter has it. The slender guy, got on, first one on the school board. HUNTLEY: Yeah, I know who you' ; re talking about. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. He was a good friend of mine, and quiet. And I had good friends among, I just didn' ; t, I wasn' ; t close to John and Deanie Drew like Martin and them was, they would go out to their house and so forth, which wasn' ; t my thing necessarily, but always we were friends. I never had any words with any of the middle class people. HUNTLEY: Right, right. SHUTTLESWORTH: It just wasn' ; t my thing. But the paper would put it, I' ; ve seen that in the-- HUNTLEY: You were always at odds with those people that-- SHUTTLESWORTH: I was just determined to do my thing, I knew I had the power to do it ' ; cause the people backed me up, and I didn' ; t have to request from them. Indeed had they had the vote on it we wouldn' ; t be where we are today, you know that. People don' ; t vote to go into bombings and all that kind of stuff. But I realized that these were good people, and I loved them actually, but I realized I had a job to do and I couldn' ; t be carried (?) because of friendship or other things. So then in this hectic, dramatic meeting where we thought we made a breakthrough, and there are just so many things about it that you could just take time, Mr. Smyer was saying that he really wished we didn' ; t have to demonstrate. I said, No, there' ; s no alternative to demonstrations if y' ; all don' ; t do something. So then I believe it was __?__ said, I' ; ll desegregate the water, I said no, not water, we have to have toilets now. I said, ' ; Cause our women go in and can' ; t, you know, use the toilet, this and that. Said, I can' ; t do that. I said, That' ; s where the problem is. Well, Louis Pizitz was the hardest person there, and he said, Yeah, he was, I think he was a Jew, My rabbi said this and that. I said, Look, it ain' ; t what you rabbi said. And I realized that he was gone be the point man, incorrigible. So after we were talking, I said, I' ; ll tell you what, Mr. Pizitz, I said, I' ; ve just made a decision. Martin and Ralph will say I did all the talking. I said, I have decided that Martin Luther King, Ralph and I are going to be arrested at your store. When we are arrested, we aren' ; t going to walk, we are going to be dragged in, see. Then when we get in jail, we are not gone shave, we not gone eat, just gone-- and when we come out we' ; re looking bad and folks won' ; t go to your store no more. So the Loveman' ; s man, this is how, so the man at Loveman' ; s said, Well, let me go make a call. And he wasn' ; t really gone hardly long enough to make a call, came back I guess within a minute. He said, you know I think I' ; ve got part of a solution. Said, What is it? He said, My maintenance man was painting on the door and he had painted some, had slopped a little paint on that sign, and I told him, Oh, hell, go ahead and paint over the sign. I said, Now, you' ; re a wise-thinking white man. If all y' ; all would do like that, we wouldn' ; t have problems. And that was the beginning of the agreement that we would not announce it, and I didn' ; t announce it. He say I was out for publicity but I didn' ; t, I said, No, no, no, we realize this, and one of the things we had tried to get the merchants to do was to join us in a suit against the city, but they didn' ; t want to do that. Because I felt as if we were really fighting segregation, if they, so I said, Well, now, if you can' ; t join with us, we have to be against you. HUNTLEY: You know, let me back up just a bit. I just thought about something-- SHUTTLESWORTH: But in this situation, I don' ; t want to forget that, A. G. Gaston said to Pizitz, when I was arguing with Pizitz, he said, Now Mr. Pizitz, I' ; m surprised at you, he said, now, you and I started together, he said, you were walking around here with clothes on your back selling them to Negroes, the Negroes made your money. He said, Now, and it' ; s just awful that you can' ; t be with them. That' ; s one of the things that made me have a lot of respect at that time for A. G. Gaston. Go ahead. HUNTLEY: Harrison Salisbury, of the New York Times-- SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. HUNTLEY: came out and wrote this article that cried out to the world saying what Birmingham was about. SHUTTLESWORTH: The bomb, the whip. HUNTLEY: Yes, and everything was segregated. They banned the use of a book that had black and white rabbits in it. And the city fathers then filed a suit against the New York Times. SHUTTLESWORTH: It was together, it was closed again, they in Montgomery, but it was a Montgomery man that filed the suit, wasn' ; t it? HUNTLEY: Oh, okay. I thought it was the city. SHUTTLESWORTH: I think it was the Montgomery, Sullivan in Montgomery, wasn' ; t it? HUNTLEY: Oh, okay. But anyway-- SHUTTLESWORTH: Dick Tyree (?), the Post, the editors, all of them spoke and they even spoke on that CBS film, but I think it was the case of Sullivan in Montgomery, but they were all included as to what they could do to stop us, you know. Yeah, go ahead. HUNTLEY: How did the Movement react to that event? SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, you know, I was interviewed, and I said what Salisbury wrote was true, ' ; cause it was. And Sullivan came out and sued, but you couldn' ; t sue the New York Times without attaching it some people in Alabama. So that was me, King, Abernathy, and ______, wasn' ; t it? And Joe Lowery. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: Five of us. We were sued for what, three and a half million dollars, something like that? When I' ; m speaking, tell folks I' ; m worth more what for I ain' ; t got than what I really have. But Judge Walter B. Jones, you know, I think issued the, in this thing also, so we had to, the suit was tried before him, I believe it was. HUNTLEY: Yesterday we were trying to think of a judge' ; s name and then we went back and looked at some things and Ralph Parker came to mind. Is that one of the, he was the judge that said that the Brown decision null and void because the Southern congressmen and senators-- SHUTTLESWORTH: hadn' ; t ratified, yeah, yeah. But he was here, wasn' ; t he? Parker was here, yeah. But the case was tried in Montgomery. The Sullivan case was tried in Montgomery ' ; cause I was there. I always remember these little funny things. I' ; m convinced that if you can' ; t laugh at things you' ; ll burst, you have to. Joe Lowery, we were there, you know, and Joe Lowery had on a golden, green suit, iridescent, glowed in the light, and had the shoes on and had a big round hole in his shoe. And so I always was sort of jocular, so Joe was telling me, Fred, Fred, be serious, respect the jury, influence the jury. I said, Negro, do you think you gone be wearing a hundred dollar suit and shoe with a hole a in it focused at the jury, thinking that the jury gone (inaudible) and they gone say, Convict ' ; em all! (Laughter) But we were there in this court and we knew that we were gonna lose the case. They' ; d bring up the name of Sammy Davis. You know Sammy Davis married a white wife. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. SHUTTLESWORTH: Almost every other word, And so and so and so, and Sammy Davis! And this and that, went on and talked. I don' ; t think we testified, I' ; m trying to think. If we did it was minor, miniscule. It was a rigged thing and the jury was gonna do anyway and so the verdict was against us. And you must remember that I lost my car, ' ; 57 Plymouth. HUNTLEY: Oh, yeah? SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, yeah! And that first little house I told you that I had bought that got sued, I had sense enough to give L. J. Rogers a pre-dated mortgage, so that he filed that mortgage and they would have taken that. So he built two block houses on it, and that' ; s the only thing I saved out of that, but I lost my car, I' ; m trying to see what else it was. I think Joe Lowery lost his car but he got it back. But I never did get anything for mine. So Alabama owes me something right now. HUNTLEY: They owe you a car. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. HUNTLEY: When, getting back to the-- SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, Bull Connor was aware of these negotiations. He didn' ; t think that these businessmen ought to be talking with us. Mr. Connor never did, I say he never did respect me, but I respected him, you know, in his capacity, he just didn' ; t have the capacity to be the kind of leader that Birmingham should have had. So he had, I don' ; t know whether he had people reporting to him or not, but he did have the capacity to go around and find violations in these people, and this is how he was going to harass them, see. And I understand, during the same time that we were meeting, that he was doing this. So he put out that they had been meeting with us, and blah, blah, blah and all like that, and he had people report to him that they had painted over the segregation signs, so he threatened to put them in jail and that' ; s where it broke down, see. But one of things I say now, and I don' ; t know, I guess all roads lead to Rome, but I think it would have been a great thing-- See, I didn' ; t meet David Vann during this thing, they were trying to get this election, all this came up at the same time. And wouldn' ; t it have been nice if whites and Blacks had been able to sit down and talk together, even then, to coordinate. HUNTLEY: Right. When did you first meet David Vann? SHUTTLESWORTH: It was probably after the demonstrations, when I met him to know him. And we should get this in. I thought always that people should talk face to face when they talk. Kennedy had sent Burke Marshall in here. I respect the man, but Burke Marshall was about to sell us down the river, in the sense that he was negotiating with the whites on one side and then with this committee Martin set up on the other. I wasn' ; t into that other meeting. But Martin knew they couldn' ; t agree to anything that I didn' ; t go with. And I did it to show, because people thought I was so hard, okay, so long as we' ; re making progress. Because see you must remember that, and it isn' ; t generally written or known, but they had to agree to three things to come into Birmingham, and didn' ; t carry any of them out. Number one, we were to have joint statements, ' ; cause I had seen in other places where Martin would make a statement and not coordinate it with the local leader, and the local leader was lost in the shuffle, and when Martin pulled out it was a big mess. Joint statements. If that' ; s true, then the Letter from the Birmingham Jail would have been signed by Martin, Ralph and me. But I never took any offense at that. We were to meet ten minutes every morning at least for strategy, which Martin and Ralph never found the time to do. And the main thing was that if an injunction was issued against us, whether people were in jail or not we were going to disobey. And that' ; s where the confrontation at John Drew' ; s house, if you want that I can give it to you now, does not make me any difference. HUNTLEY: Yeah, let' ; s hold off on that one a little bit, and let' ; s talk about those first days that, you know the demonstrations started actually April first I believe. SHUTTLESWORTH: April first or third, whatever it was. Charles Billups and I led the first wave, fifty-seven of us marched and we were arrested in front of the post office. That was the first wave of demonstrations. And then we began to recruit each night. Of course people have to work and I' ; m not sure that we would have ever filled up the jails with working people. But a movement has a way of either crescendo-ing or it dies out. But it so happened that based on the sufferings and things that the Negoes had taken here, almost anything in a push would have drive. And the middle class just got quiet. You must remember (short skip in tape) during the demonstrations. I think the white people tried to get Gaston and Drew and two or three others to make a statement. (a few words inaudible) And I had just left Birmingham and flown to Cincinnati, and when I got there there was a message for me from Andrew Young. Martin said can you fly right back cause we got to get together people to make a statement. Well we knew if they start making statements, temporizing statements, it would be basically what the power structure wanted. So we had to fly back, I flew right back, very same day. And we met in Mr. Gaston' ; s motel, the old brick, white brick part of it. And we had just to come out and say, you know, that actually Mr. Gaston and others, I think the statement was, if you go back and read, we stand ready and willing, the local leaders, you know. And so, Martin and them knew that he couldn' ; t have done it by themselves, couldn' ; t get them to tone down, except that I came, ' ; cause he had tried to use them as a part of negotiations, and now here they are going to make statements. It would have just torn us up. So I flew back in and I realized it was a historical moment. And I was as nice as I could be. I said, Well, now, gentlemen, and ladies, and Mr. Gaston, we appreciate what you' ; ve been doing and the help you' ; ve given us, but now is not the time for people to speak out. Y' ; all have been making statements and they neither got the Negro anything, and they just feel like when y' ; all talk they' ; re not getting anywhere. And if you must insist in doing it, then we have to boycott your place just like we do the white folks' ; . That stopped it, see. That isn' ; t generally known, and I' ; m not trying to reflect on anybody, but I had come back. So this shows you whether or not I was important in the Movement. HUNTLEY: Right. You left Birmingham in sixty-one. Why did you leave in sixty-one to move in Cincinnati? SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, the folks up there insisted that the Lord had told them to call me. It was economic anything else. I wasn' ; t ever going to get a larger church here that could pay me what I needed. My children were getting up in school. My wife wasn' ; t going to get a job in Alabama, see. And it wasn' ; t just for the money. I could have stayed because my local movement, this isn' ; t known either, they wanted to supplement my salary at Bethel. But I did not feel as if I should let them supplement, because I wasn' ; t going to argue with them about what I say and do. At the same time I understood that if I was independent I could give the same type of leadership unfettered and unhindered by anything that somebody had maybe hooked onto the power structure want to might do. And then up there I had the problem of, not the problem, they wanted me, I told them I didn' ; t think that the Lord told me to come up there so I wasn' ; t coming, this is a long story in itself, but to make it shorter, I went up there, I think we talked yesterday about Lamar Weaver had me come up there, right? HUNTLEY: Well, we really didn' ; t mention it. SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, I don' ; t know whether you want to get into all of it but let' ; s say, they had to agree, I told them, y' ; all want my history but you' ; re getting a man. I was a man in the South, I suffered in the South, and my history is what you want, but you' ; re getting a man, and I' ; ll be your pastor. And of course they wanted, they didn' ; t understand the kind of person I was even then, even before, you know, taking the job, and they, when they finally called me I got Rev. Lane to go out there to tell them No, and they voted themselves for three-month pay for me to reconsider. And it was during that time that things happened, you know, you can never know, and I hadn' ; t thought about going up there. And even Rev. Ware who was sort of at odds with me, I was preaching out here on church, I believe it was Rev. Freeman' ; s church on the side of a hill up in Fountain Heights somewhere over there, because we had been at my church the year before so I had to bring the introductory sermon, and I remember preaching and it was a such a, after they had called me, I guess the fire was on me or something, and it was amazing, when I preached, most of the people were outside, shouting and so forth. So Rev. Ware said to me, this sticks out in mind, he said, Reverend, an unusual thing happened here today, he said, now the Lord works sometimes different from what we think. He said, now you, your mind is here, so you and I have differed, I haven' ; t been anti-you, I just differed, and I really didn' ; t want to talk to him, I said, Yeah, doctor, I was listening. He said but the Lord may be trying to say something to you. The Lord may want you to go up there. You said you think you have to heading this all the time. He said, this is your heart. He said, and I understand how you feel, said, but what happened today is a manifestation that God is moving in your life. He said, and you must realize it' ; s God' ; s work, too. He said, so you pray over it. He said, I' ; m not telling you what to do, he said, the Lord may want you to go up there. I hadn' ; t even considered, no more than that wall, ' ; cause I had told them, my answer it no, call somebody else. And I hadn' ; t even thought about it and that thing that day got to it. And so, and then I began going home. And it wasn' ; t Ware had called me to think about, it' ; s incidentally is what comes into my mind, and I know that it has to be, it comes so in a way that you know that it has to be God. And I was sleeping one night and it looked like to me I was going to a red church across the river, but they were so tired in Birmingham that it was all one thing. And I began thinking, well, if I can go and be independent in my own what I make, without looking to my board to sustain me, ' ; cause I couldn' ; t be independent of them, taking orders from them about what I could, could not do, they' ; d have a right to say, you know. And then I went up there, and I finally told them, this takes some time but I' ; m just, the final word that I said to them, now, y' ; all think you want me, you don' ; t really need me, but if I come, I have to be the man here that I was anywhere else, and you have to agree to my thing, so they agreed not to interfere with my going at all, although I never spent their money to come, to do anything. Not to interfere, and to support me in my going, and it worked out that I spent more time here, even being a pastor, so I told them, I said you have to be glad when you see me and pray for me when I' ; m gone, ' ; cause the world is my pulpit, and if it comes down to a choice of my having a pulpit to preach in and my standing for what' ; s right, then the pulpit goes. Period. So they have never interfered to this day. Now I have had a right-wing attack up there which you don' ; t need to talk about. I' ; ve been into it in so many at church as well, and the church I have now came out of that, that' ; s why I' ; m in Cincinnati, to sustain the truth, and that' ; s why I' ; ve been there this long. HUNTLEY: What role did Lamar Weaver play in all this? SHUTTLESWORTH: None. I was disappointed, and even when I went to Cincinnati, (?) with Lamar Weaver. HUNTLEY: Was he living in Cincinnati at the time? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, at one time he was living in Cincinnati. HUNTLEY: When you first went there. SHUTTLESWORTH: When I first went there. But I didn' ; t, we never kept any contact. That was one of my disappointments. I saw him last week, he always wishes me well and I wish him well. But I was disappointed in that we didn' ; t get close, I was hoping we could establish that relationship ' ; cause, you know, even in Cincinnati I started leading fights and challenging city council, they (?) anything, I call a mass meeting at my church and get a resolution and be in the streets, and I wanted Lamar, who was here, to be, and he could have, really, become front page, but I couldn' ; t find him up there. HUNTLEY: At some point did he become a member of your church, did he join your church? SHUTTLESWORTH: No. No. When he left, I didn' ; t know he' ; d left. I don' ; t think I spoke to Lamar after he met me that night when I went up to preach. He and Elaine met me at the station. I don' ; t really remember speaking to him up there, I saw him in Atlanta a number of times. HUNTLEY: Why did he meet you at the station, because he knew you were from here? SHUTTLESWORTH: From here. And he wanted me to speak at Revelation. I guess he thought it would be nice for me to come up to a vacant church. I wasn' ; t looking for any churches. I don' ; t know any church that was given to my heart as Bethel Baptist Church, you know. HUNTLEY: Was that a hard decision to make for you and your family to leave Birmingham at that point? SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, I had some internal problems in my family, not destructable, and I thought that my wife had begun to, it didn' ; t really become overt till she got up there. You know, sometimes you can become envious of a person' ; s status. I' ; ve always been a popular individual, out front, men and women, from the time I began preaching in Mobile, as I told you, people would go out of their way to make openings for me. But we never argued, my wife and I, you wouldn' ; t believe this, have never argued over a man or woman, nothing like that, but things that happened that we grew not, not a part. Now, I realize, though, that the large part of it was my own rugged individualistic style in going and doing. She knew I was going to do what I felt like I' ; d do. But I always supported them as a family, and when I could I could be home and so forth. And then she got a job teaching and looked like her mind just left home. And I really didn' ; t want to-- HUNTLEY: She got a job teaching here? SHUTTLESWORTH: Cincinnati. HUNTLEY: Cincinnati. SHUTTLESWORTH: I really didn' ; t want to go, to take her to Cincinnati cause the problem had begun to evidence a little bit in Selma, and then here, and so during the time that I was trying to agonize over whether to go, one day we were at the house, and she said to me, she had never mentioned it before, she said, Fred, let' ; s go up to Cincinnati. I said, Well, you know, I told you that I would never want to go into another church with you. I think we just should, I don' ; t think I should go for that reason, and I don' ; t want to have trouble. Because see, here, my wife was going, I sent her back to Montgomery to school, she didn' ; t want to finish her nurse' ; s training. And when she would come home, there would just be so much problems until I could hardly, and I' ; m not saying this to do anything, she' ; s the mother of my children, and she stuck with me back in those days. But people somehow or another get apart. HUNTLEY: That was due to your popularity? SHUTTLESWORTH: Her doctor said to me, only once, he said your wife is fighting your image, that' ; s her problem and I can' ; t do nothing with it, it' ; s a psychological problem. And I heard her tell somebody she was playing a role model, well, a wife never plays a role model, you just do your job. But I don' ; t want to get into, but I' ; m saying that I, here, before I left, we had, I had helped her to finish school. It took all I could do because I wasn' ; t making but seventy-five dollars a week, paying an aunt to keep the kids, and so she says to me, let' ; s go to Cincinnati, and I said, Well, I told you I would never be in another church where I' ; d have to have problems, where there would be argumentations and so forth. Wasn' ; t serious but it was just enough to, so she said, Well, let' ; s get a new start. I think that indirectly, and I have to be honest, ' ; cause we' ; re all human, partly that helped to inveigh with my mind to consider whether I would go, cause she needed to leave Birmingham, you know. And, of course when we got into Cincinnati she became totally another individual. She got a job teaching, and sometimes I would see her in the morning and not again till ten or eleven at night, you know, she doing business things and other things. But that weighed a little bit ' ; cause I always believed in keeping the family together. I don' ; t believe in a man running off and forsaking his family. And then I don' ; t basically believe in divorce unless it just must happen. So, I' ; m giving you intimate things because I think you have to be honest about it. Everybody faces, nowadays, when divorce is so prevalent and all, you really hate to think about these things, and we all have our part and we have to face them as best we can. But I do think, in any situation, people ought to try to see what God wants in their lives in this situation. And then feel satisfied that whatever the result is, if you follow God, it' ; s gone come out all right, ' ; cause that' ; s my code. HUNTLEY: Your children at that time were, were they high school? SHUTTLESWORTH: Fred, Jr., was sixteen, and they were, yeah, Jr. wanted to finish high school, the others finished high school here at Parker, the two girls, so they started UC. And, here again, just to show you some problems I have, I' ; m here civil-righting, you know-- HUNTLEY: So they finished high school, then, after you had moved to Cincinnati, though, right? SHUTTLESWORTH: They started UC, the two girls. HUNTLEY: Okay. SHUTTLESWORTH: ' ; Cause they didn' ; t go to high school up there I don' ; t recall. But this problem, let' ; s go back to the wife thing. She was so concerned about them being free to, you know, you let kids do everything and go, and don' ; t get their lessons, don' ; t study, so UC, at one time, was expelling three of my kids for not maintaining an average, and all my kids are, none of them are dumb, and I didn' ; t even know it. So we go over to UC and I' ; m going over there, you know, indignant, here I am fighting for human rights, blah, blah, blah, and you put my kids out of school. And this professor said to me, He said, Reverend, he said, You know, I' ; m not a segregationist and I realize how you feel, he says, he said to his secretary, said, Go get their file on Shuttlesworth' ; s children. He had a file that thick. And he had letters in there where he had written me telling me-- (end Side A) Side B: SHUTTLESWORTH: --the boy wanted to get married, and first Black judge in Cincinnati, I had endorsed him in the paper so he got elected by seventy thousand votes. Cincinnati is as much racist as, still. His wife happened to be a principal, and so she got a good job, and you become set in your ways. And instead of her insisting on the kids getting their lessons, she' ; d take them out of school and sent them to Knoxville College, I didn' ; t know anything about it. So he' ; s down there and he fails down there. HUNTLEY: You didn' ; t know that the child was being transferred.. SHUTTLESWORTH: No, no, no, no. So the man down there, whatever, examiner, bursar, whatever it was, he called and talked to me, he say, Well, Reverend, you might as well come because he' ; s heart is in getting married and he' ; s failing his grades, he' ; s not going to do any better down here. So he comes back home without my knowing anything, my wife had arranged with this principal, and he' ; s a judge and knew all of the white people, I didn' ; t know any of them. They had done arranged for him to go to Denver, gone pay some scholarship in Denver for him. And my wife, just offhand one day, said I' ; m getting him a scholarship for him to go-- I said, No, no, no, if he can' ; t make it at UC, which is one of the best schools in the country, he won' ; t make it anywhere. And then I called Mrs. Lovelace. I said, Mrs. Lovelace, I' ; m a little bit surprised at the relationship you had, remember one time, and I don' ; t want to get into all this, but her husband, the Republican Party controlled Cincinnati. And he couldn' ; t fire his bailiff for doing favors and things that he had made, and I went down with the preachers there and threatened to shake up the city, said, I' ; d be glad to go to jail, said, the party system is running the judicial. That was her husband. And I was sitting outside in the hall when they were talking to him like you' ; d have some kid sitting there talking on the bench. And I told him, I said, Mr. Bonds, Republican chairman, I said, Now, he said, Well, we will move the bailiff, Party will move the bailiff, judge can' ; t fire his own bailiff. And I said, Mr. Bonds, I know how people do but I said I' ; ll you what, if there' ; s any more interference with him a judge, I' ; ll come down and sit in the middle of the street and get arrested so I can get in the paper. The paper' ; s gone hear what I' ; m saying, Republican Party. I give you my hand. Well, now, so his wife, you know, knows all about this, I saved his job. So I said to her, I can' ; t imagine, with all that we' ; ve been through, that you would make arrangements to send my son off, see he was down in Knoxville, I didn' ; t know anything about that. She said, Reverend, you mean to tell me, I said, Now you gone send him to Denver? She said, Mrs. Shuttlesworth told me that you all were together, and she was shocked, of course, but I didn' ; t let him go. These are just problems, but you always have internal problems. You know, you can have problems outside and inside but you have to do what you think is basically right. HUNTLEY: So when you, then, as the Movement progressed, you already organized Birmingham with the Alabama Christian Movement. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. HUNTLEY: So by sixty-two, when you invited SCLC to come into Birmingham, why did you think that this was the time? SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, it' ; s simple. You must remember that for seven years, and I hope Birmingham people learn this, for seven years, before we invited SCLC, we had won all of the legal victories, we had tested everything and won, ________ case and all. But they were pyrrhic victories. They had closed the library, they closed this, and they closed the parks! That' ; s Shuttlesworth versus Birmingham. So my thought was that, and I didn' ; t think that Dr. King himself was gone win the battle, I thought that Dr. King and all of our influence together with what Birmingham could do based on what the strength of the Movement, and crescendoing, and people coming from the outside, see, we planned to invite people from the outside, when we went to jail, for violating the injunction, we had a statement ready to ask people to come in and serve to speak. Doctor, I was always aware that you have to look out for the worst, and if you get prepared for the worst you' ; ll do alright, see. That' ; s why I never worried about saying what was gone happen to me, ' ; cause I always had figured what the worst could come out of it. SCLC needed Birmingham. SCLC needed to resurrect itself and to prove that we can persuade people to challenge in their own right. You must remember that SCLC didn' ; t make movements. SCLC only helped to facilitate and by all of our, you must remember that, in all of the places that we went, Martin couldn' ; t be there all of the time, nor Ralph couldn' ; t. I was symbolism, I would go in, and Martin would go in, and Ralph. Then like in Memphis, when he was killed, I was to go in next Tuesday, see, to encourage people and to keep things going. Well it just so happened here that you had one of the symbols of the Movement on which the Movement depended at one time, and it' ; s one of them things that anybody could come in here and run over, and change things even if they didn' ; t like it. There were instances, and I don' ; t talk about it, where they were trying, it appeared that they were trying to undercut my leadership, and some people thought that, but _______ a lot of things that we were doing, and ______ a few things I would do differently at the moment, but that' ; s not-- I think that you do what you feel you should do at that time and that' ; s it. I' ; ve been asked why was it that I didn' ; t go when the Nobel Peace Prize, when the Peace was given for what happened in Birmingham. And Dr. King never asked me, and I never asked him. And some of the press have said that he was doing his thing. And I said, well, you know, I' ; m satisfied to have moved us further from where we were, that I wasn' ; t seeking glory and don' ; t today, you know. To God be the glory. HUNTLEY: In those early days of the ' ; 63 demonstrations, after the first arrest, the meetings there, the nightly meetings started to grow, but then there was a period where it appeared that people had gotten rather afraid, to lose jobs, and then there was this idea of bringing the children into-- SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, I think, that we had, it was a general discussion at one time, that really everybody should be fighting for freedom. We hadn' ; t specifically thought about the children. It was our need that the children were brought up as soldiers. Our idea was that we ought to teach everybody freedom and so forth. And we were not increasingly jail people like we wanted to, and some of the people who had been to jail twice, even adults, couldn' ; t keep going back and keep a job, see. And so we had been talking, it had been kicked around, and James Bevill pushed the idea further and how he got it over convinced Wyatt T. Walker and myself. Well, what we basically agreed upon was gone be it anyway, see. And my position was that young people could be no better soldiers anywhere at anytime than understanding what freedom was and fighting for freedom. And of course when we had meeting and talked with King about it, he had something basically-- King also knew that we would never fill the jails or if we did it would be over some kind of a miracle. And so Wyatt and I had tacitly given Bevill the idea of beginning to, Orange and others, to feel the students out, because the children were coming to the Mass Meetings. It wasn' ; t a problem for us having to go out and persuade them. HUNTLEY: Yeah, they were already there. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, the children, we were having so many young folks and I began focusing in my speeches on children. And then one of things was that what the parents need is to set an example for their children but the children are supposed to sustain their parents. And the kids wanted to do it, to them it was a challenge. But then I think one of the lessons that all students, white and Black, ought to be mandatory, is the basic discipline of the Movement, because children now have so many lax situations and levities that they need to be, say, well, now, you need to learn this along with that, so that you can balance in your thinking. That young people, even children, helped to win this battle, without them we wouldn' ; t have won. See, at one time, we had over three thousand people in jail, and Burke Marshall, I don' ; t know whether you want to get into this now, we were right at the height of the Movement and I went downtown and I saw, the policemen were so frustrated, turned around in the middle of the street, and they were asking me, Well, how many more you got? I said, Well, we got about four thousand more. And remember Arthur Hanes, the changing government thing, he went down there, and I told him, I said, You' ; re a powerful man in a powerless situation. We had downtown just stood still, civil disobedience. And I said to Martin, all we' ; ve got to do is to hold them three more days. HUNTLEY: Now it was in the height of this period that you were-- SHUTTLESWORTH: --struck with a fire hose. But the so-called negotiating committee, they were going to temporize, you know, and Burke Marshall was talking and I don' ; t know what Burke was saying to be honest with you. And when I was struck with the fire hose, here again, you see, let' ; s don' ; t try to figure life without the God of life. I was so tense, and you must remember, I wasn' ; t out there challenging them, I had been helping to get the kids out of the street back into the building so we could talk to them that you don' ; t need to challenge and taunt the police. HUNTLEY: Give us a little of that, what was that, how does that transpire, how did that evolve? This whole situation of your being where you were at the time and what were the children doing? SHUTTLESWORTH: Okay. This was, I don' ; t know what day it was with the fire hose. (brief inaudible) A. G. Gaston said he looked out his office and saw children walking down the street, but I had been in the demonstration and I had to get behind a tree and the hose seventy-five feet away would knock bark off this tree, right by, I couldn' ; t look out. I had to get behind a tree to avoid the water, this is not when I' ; m struck. So I had to, we had to try to be sure that even as the young people were being struck with the hose, that there were cases of severe disability, it was our responsibility, mine I think as well as others. And on this day, this was the second day when the kids were taunting the police, I had come around from over on Fifth Avenue and we had gotten all the kids out the park, Bevill, all of us, and I had come around and came on this sidewalk, in fact the tripod, where we put Martin, was right between Martin' ; s statue and that. And so I passed by them just like you and I talking, they recognized me, they were friendly, basically. And as you would have it, so I went on across the street, never looking back, until I went to go down the steps. And you know how far it is from going down the steps at Sixteenth Street as it is across the street. One of the firemen said to the other one, this was the one on the road, I could hear them like you and I talking-- HUNTLEY: Is that right? SHUTTLESWORTH: It' ; s unusual, it had to be God. And I turned and they had already turned the water up and the water beginning to arc on me, and I just put my hand before my face, before my face, and I was slammed against that wall. Else my face would have been disfigured today, and I was slammed against the wall, and the water came on. My breath, I had trouble getting my breath and all like that. And I just finally lay, I was conscious, I didn' ; t get unconscious, but I was slammed against the wall, and I felt the water still pressuring on me once I was there. And I guess then they turned it up but I just couldn' ; t do anything but lay there. And then I heard somebody say, Hey, that' ; s Reverend Shuttlesworth! and I could hear people screaming, and I was taken out to Holy Family. At that time I had been so worked up that I was concerned that Martin and Ralph, we weren' ; t communicating like we were, and here we needed to be together on whatever happened, because I knew that we had to keep the pressure on. But the negotiating committee had begun trying to give the merchants a way out of it. So I went to the hospital. Doctor, the first thing he did is give me a hypo, wanted to knock me out, he said, you' ; re just so hyper. But he didn' ; t knock me out. And later on then that night he came in, he said, now you, and I had during the struggle developed a kind of a tension like. And he gave me another one there that night, but I just wouldn' ; t give in. I was aware that I had to be back here, I don' ; t know for what and I don' ; t know why, but I just didn' ; t, just go out. So, and Martin and Ralph didn' ; t come. This was one thing that I was real disturbed about, to see about me at all. And the next morning, when Rev. Gardner and my wife came out, the doctor told them this, he said now, his heart is over there, he' ; s not gone rest, said I' ; ve given him two hypos, take him on back over there and if he can be, he' ; ll rest better at the motel in the midst of what' ; s going on ' ; cause that' ; s where his mind is. I said, You' ; re right. They brought me to Gaston Motel, it' ; s on that wing on that side, I don' ; t know whether it' ; s Room 24 or whatever it was, and I had not, tucking me in the bed, and I had been in the bed ten minutes before Andrew Young comes over and knocks on the door, Martin wants you out to John Drew' ; s house. This upset me very much. And he didn' ; t tarry, I said, Where I need to be? He said, Well, no, come on, it' ; s urgent, you just go to get up. So I get up and go. I always if Martin and Ralph say they need me I go, whatever I feel. And I guess we better just (inaudible). Drew' ; s house is, it' ; s (inaudible) level, you' ; re walking and step down and turn, and way over there you step up. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: In this room was, see, Deanie Drew was sitting way up on the steps over there on the floor. Martin was looking out of the windows over the woods with his hands in his back pockets, that' ; s the way he always stood when he was really deep in trouble. He wasn' ; t saying anything. Burke Marhsall was sitting ' ; bout the middle of the room, Ralph was a little bit further. Dolan and some others, I guess it was Dolan, I don' ; t know that name, and I haven' ; t (inaudible) since, to be honest with you. So I stepped down and I didn' ; t know I was that weak until I sat in the chair and dropped. And I said, Martin, why is it that I have to get up out of my sick bed and come out to John Drew' ; s house? So he didn' ; t answer me. I said, Martin, I asked you why must I get up out of my sick bed and come to John Drew' ; s house? Without looking around, he said, Well, Fred, you' ; ve got to call these demonstrations off, (inaudible) pained. And I realize the pressure that was on him. (inaudible) I felt sorry for him but I was mad as hell too, that they couldn' ; t come and sit down and talk to me and see what was what, (inaudible) bring the whole committee. He said, Well, you' ; ve got to call them-- I said, Say that again. He said, we' ; ve got to call-- I said, I thought over here we were not gone call the demonstrations off. I said, Martin, what in the world has happened? I said, You don' ; t mean to tell me we got near four thousand people and then on my word and your word (inaudible) as I said this again, you get full control (?). Now, Fred, I don' ; t-- I said, I don' ; t think you ought to say, I said, your own brother says it about you. I said, but that ain' ; t the point, we ain' ; t calling nothing off, we ain' ; t calling a damn thing off, actually is what I said. So Deanie Drew was sitting way over on the other side, and she talked real, I want to know why we can' ; t call it off, and I was angry. I said, You can' ; t call nothing off ' ; cause you didn' ; t call nothing on. I didn' ; t come over here to talk with you. Well, now, the fat' ; s in the fire. And I said, No, we aren' ; t calling anything off. And I tried to get up and I realized how weak I was and I was getting angrier by the moment. And Ralph was beyond Martin, Burke was the closest to me, about as far as from here to that lamp stand, Ralph was a little bit further, between Burke and Martin, couple other people there. So Ralph, said, Now, Fred, you and I went to school together,didn' ; t we? And we' ; re friends, ain' ; t we, Fred? And I' ; d been on my knees but while he was talking he was coming on his knees and winding up between my knees. And we can meet, I said, Ralph, get off your damn knees, you can get on your belly, it won' ; t make no difference, we ain' ; t calling nothing off. So he abruptly turned around and went back. I said, We are not calling anything off. Well they had arranged, now listen! All this time-- and I don' ; t know nothing about it -- that the president was gone make a joint statement in Washington, Martin was gone make a joint TV statement in Birmingham, calling it off! HUNTLEY: Already decided. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, and until somebody said, Well, what about the president' ; s-- I said, Oh, you' ; ve got a press conference. I said, I tell you what you do. Go ahead and do it, I said, and I' ; m gone go back and get in my sick bed, and when I see you all have called it off, then with what little strength I' ; ve got I' ; m gone get back out and lead them thousand kids out in the street and you' ; ll be dead, I said, Martin, you' ; ll be Mr. S-H-I-T instead of Mr. Big. And I said, so the President' ; s got, I said, Well, y' ; all go ahead, and I tried to get up and couldn' ; t and got angry you know. So then, I believe it was Dolan, or Noland, one of them, Deanie had a little room open here, it' ; s a phone line there. Robert Kennedy always, ' ; cause remember I told you yesterday, he was the one the point man, he keeps up with what' ; s going on? So he called during that time. HUNTLEY: While you were there. SHUTTLESWORTH: See, they realized that if they had called it off without me and I had called it back on, everybody' ; d be messed up, I think. So, he called, and this man was trying to tell him, " ; the frail one" ; . Martin didn' ; t understand the word so he had to say it a little louder, " ; the frail one" ; . And I heard him. I say I guess you' ; re talking to the president and his brother. I said, Tell him I' ; m frail but not that damn frail. We ain' ; t calling nothing off. HUNTLEY: (Laughing) You defied the president of the United States. SHUTTLESWORTH: The president of the United States, I said, I understand that the president nor his brother live down here. And people have confidence in me, and Martin through me. And these people are going to jail and we just ain' ; t calling nothing off. And then I really got up ' ; cause I was going anyway. And then Burke Marshall said, I was still sitting down and he made this statement now, you figure out what kind of statement this is. He said, But I have made promises to these people. HUNTLEY: Hm-hmm. SHUTTLESWORTH: And I looked straight at him, I said, Burke, any promise you made that I didn' ; t agree with is not a promise. I said, Let' ; s go, said now, hell, now y' ; all carry it on and let' ; s go. And so I' ; m getting up and walking out, my wife and Rev. Gardner got under my arms, I couldn' ; t get up myself. And as I turned around, Burke said these words to me. Don' ; t worry, Fred, they are going to agree to your demands. Now suppose I hadn' ; t, he said, now don' ; t worry. And they went back that same night and agreed. HUNTLEY: So that would have actually changed the whole movement. SHUTTLESWORTH: If we had ever stopped short of an agreement, where the merchants could say, we didn' ; t agree to anything? SCLC would have been dead, the Movement, for the breakthrough that' ; s close as we were? And we are, I knew we had to had to be, you know, there are so many little things you need to get on tape I guess. You know we must be making progress when I go before Judge Brown, the one who died on the, in _____ with the Georgia court, but this was two or three days before that, and I' ; m going before him on my sentencing, Let me call you Mister Shuttlesworth for a change, I regret to inform you that because of the overcrowded conditions at the jail, I cannot sentence you this morning. I said, Your Honor, we' ; re making progress. And so I sat in the white section, he was trying to, now y' ; all go and sit where you' ; re supposed to sit, I' ; m sitting right over there and looking ' ; cause I know he couldn' ; t put me in jail. (Laughter) So you see we won. But what would disaster that would have been. And you can know or anybody can know, King never would have a national holiday had we not won in Birmingham. But it took that. And I gave this interview to Howell Raines because I didn' ; t want history to pass without us, you see, and I have never sought to demean any man' ; s name, certainly not Martin, I think he was the man, the spokesman for the hour he was. And I don' ; t know whether we had the same ideas, but at least we were caught up together in the idea of the fighting segregation, lifting the burden of people and to some degree at least, at least as he communicated to me. We were, we could talk together and seemingly have same mind. So I had no _________ with him, I never, press have asked me, Martin was doing this thing have larger purpose, but my purpose to overthrow segregation, first here then there and everywhere. And so as long as Martin could do that without abusing the people and so forth. And so I' ; m happy with the King holiday and I' ; m happy and supported it and do support it, and I hate for anybody to say anything demeaning of Martin. HUNTLEY: Were you in town the night of the bombing of A. D. King' ; s home and the motel? SHUTTLESWORTH: No. I had gone back to Cincinnati and I think I came back the next day. So, no I wasn' ; t here. HUNTLEY: That was the night that it appeared that Black folk had decided they were gonna, there wasn' ; t going to be any nonviolence that night and that created somewhat of a difficulty for the Movement leaders. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, especially in view of the fact that you were trying to keep people, Al Lingo and others and state governor had his troopers in and so forth. And it' ; s just amazing that it was contained. But I think the threat of Kennedy federalizing the Guard was what kept it from going further than it did, see. The President was alert that if, for instance, if for instance we didn' ; t get a clear victory out of it, whatever else happened, and we were going to continue things and they were going to start beating us up, he would have to federalize the Guard, and we were of a mind, I was, that if it took the federal guards, see we had already known what the limited marshal law in Montgomery did, it didn' ; t fulfill the purpose, Martin was disappointed, ' ; cause he announced, and Federal troops are on the way, when he found out it was limited marshal law. Kennedy was trying to get some things that, you know, to help. And I admired him. I have said that if it had not been for the Kennedy' ; s in the White House and the King' ; s, meaning Ralph, me and others and all the other people, in the streets, America would still be a jungle. HUNTLEY: Hm-hmm, hm-hmm. After that, I guess, that May, what then was your relationship to Birmingham, ' ; cause I guess there were still demonstrations exigent, how often did you come back and--? SHUTTLESWORTH: See, I was back in Birmingham till sixty-five. HUNTLEY: Back and forth. SHUTTLESWORTH: I was regularly back, supporting the students, supporting, yeah. And I wanted to resign in sixty-five. And that' ; s when they gave, my moving gave me this This Is Your Life thing, I have some of those pictures I will show you when you want to talk about archives and so forth. In sixty-five. But I kept charge of the Movement until sixty-nine. Now from sixty-five, from sixty-six until sixty-nine I didn' ; t come as much, see, because it was good to me that the students were doing some things, and whenever anything of any consequence was going on I was right back, and I was always available, you know. For instance if somebody was receiving a backset in something, I' ; d come stand right here, ' ; cause I was always ready to go to jail. Jail to me was one way of getting things done, ' ; cause a long time in jail, the press got to be there, you can say something and then you can push. I know this. And I think at this time the power structure was trying to avoid things, you know, to do just enough, really the segregationists, and the system now, does only what it has to, no more. It doesn' ; t change much, it just enough to keep down problems, and ____ when it has to, which is unfortunate. Which goes back to say, my friend, that we' ; re a long way from doing God' ; s word or will that says, Let justice roll down like waters and righteousness as a mighty stream, everybody says that, but we are satisfied that justice only trickles. HUNTLEY: The trickling of justice. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, a trickle of justice. The change of government, you can ask that, okay. HUNTLEY: At the time that Birmingham was going through this effort to change the government from a commission form of government to the city council or mayoral form, some things were happening as far as the Movement was concerned. Can you sort of elaborate on some of the highlights of things that were happening at that point? SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, the Movement actually was holding its breath, or in abeyance, or in hopes, just like everybody else was, that the type of Birmingham government could be changed, the commission form, which had not served adequately anyway. And it was too personalized in people like Bull Connor, you know, so forth. So that we were hopeful that the citizens could elect their officials in calm and without intimidation and so forth. Well, you know, farther demonstrations, which Connor was concerned about keeping, all his concern was, was keeping office. And it just so happened that I was, somebody was driving me to the airport, and I happened to hear -- and this was the week before the election, as I recall, not over two weeks -- and I happened to hear on the radio report that Mr. Connor had said that the white people in Birmingham had better wake up because Shuttlesworth and them Negroes are planning to tear up the town, something, and better elect him so they could be sure of being safe, of keeping safe and so forth. And all of a sudden it dawned on me that Mr. Connor was going to stage something and put it on the Movement, to get the white people upset, and had that been done, all of what Dave Van and all the rest of the people who were trying to change the method of government would have failed, because the majority of the white folk would have been angry at Movement demonstrations. And I realized this, I understood it clearly in a moment. When I was going to the airport I didn' ; t have time to call Lola Hendricks or nobody else at the airport, plane was to take off, so on the plane I just wrote out a statement, and when I hit the ground in Atlanta between the change of planes, I called Lola Hendricks and read to her word for word, I said, the Alabama Christian Movement -- as I recall now -- is desirous that the citizens of Birmingham in a calm and undisturbed atmosphere will take time to choose their officials, the people they want to lead them. Therefore the Alabama Christian Movement will plan no activities for this period of the election and will not participate in any planned by anybody else. Which means that if there had been demonstrations, I had foreclosed any of them, for ourselves or anybody else. HUNTLEY: Right, so he couldn' ; t put that on the Movement. SHUTTLESWORTH: Couldn' ; t put that, Mr. Connor had planned to put it on the Movement. And I don' ; t think many of the citizens of this country or this city know that right now. But anyway, I said to her, I said now get this to all three of the television stations and also to the radio stations at once. And I understand that within an hour she had gotten people and had taken it to every one of them, cause I called back later on, she said all of it. And they were glad to get it, ' ; cause they realized it was important to the election that, to know that the Movement was not planning any, and they had already realized that this other thing was put out before that we had planned it. But for me saying there wouldn' ; t be any, nor our participation in it, then that, I' ; m sure that had that not been done, Mr. Connor would have won the election, and the citizens right now of this city don' ; t know that had that happened the change of government would not have happened. HUNTLEY: You also had the opportunity to serve as your lawyer at one point and you had Bull Connor on the stand. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, you must remember that as I was telling you about the situation where Chief Knox and the fire department and all of the police was out all, but we would be strong in the Movement. Well, this was simply a method of harassing, what I call harassing the harassers, and giving the people the show that you can have a voice. And I knew that lawyers have a particular power where you summon, subpoena people. And so this was thought out by me and Lynn Holt who came in and helped us file a lot of suits when we were having a lot of difficulty with lawyers, although I didn' ; t have anything against lawyers, we just didn' ; t have money enough to do all, but Lynn Holt gave his time. Lynn Holt could type up a suit between here and the Atlanta airport and I' ; d file it pro se. (laughter) HUNTLEY: You' ; d file it. SHUTTLESWORTH: As a pauper, yeah, and Judge Grooms understood it. And so, but this suit was heard before Seabourn Lynn. Seabourn H. Lynn, Judge Lynn, the segregationists, they always called him their judge. And in that Star, which was the Klan paper, they had Lynn listed as the Klansman' ; s judge. So I knew at first whether we won or not it didn' ; t make any difference, but Lynn and I suggested that it would be a psychological thing, to let the people just to know that Bull Connor, as powerful as he was, can be subpoenaed on the stand, and I would be-- HUNTLEY: His interrogator. SHUTTLESWORTH: His interrogator, yeah, (unintelligible) some questions, I think you have some of them there, I didn' ; t know (unintelligible) if I would ask him (unintelligible) questions, but I knew we weren' ; t gone win, Lynn knew that too, in fact Judge Lynn told us, practically, I think, before we even started, and as soon as, he said, well, I' ; m gonna rule against you so I think he wrote something out, yeah. But we had him over, and did a lot of psychological lifting to the people to know that we could have Bull Connor on the stand. HUNTLEY: Were people in the courtroom that day, Black folk and all. SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, yeah, yeah, it was full. And he had to be there. And he had to wait till I called him, Jimmy Morgan also was there. HUNTLEY: That must have been quite a triumphant day psychologically. SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, you should have been in that Movement that night, that week, that was all that was talked about. And Bull felt humiliated, but what difference did it make? HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. Your activities after Birmingham, after like sixty-five or so, you spent most of your time living in Cincinnati, tell me about what was happening in Cincinnati. SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, you must remember I went, I was called to Cincinnati in sixty-one. In the early part, cause I left Bethel in August. I was so heavily involved here, I was in about fourteen lawsuits then. I' ; ve been in about, I guess about forty altogether, they suing me and I' ; m suing them and all that kind of stuff. And, but going into Cincinnati, I was accepted as a hero, I made headlines, you know, my going there, my whatever happened to me there. You must remember that I was on the board of Southern Conference Education Fund, and then I had accepted the presidency of it, and the Jackson Daily News put out a green sheet with a black streamer, Negro Pastor Heads Communist Front. So I knew that to a segregationist, anybody who believed in integration was a Communist. HUNTLEY: Yeah. SHUTTLESWORTH: And that about the same time as I was being called to Cincinnati, so I just put out a statement that I was not going to enter into verbal gymnastics with people who for a lifetime have been just trying to hold back democracy and democratic action by accusing people of being Communist, so forth, and I said to a segregationist, anybody who wants integration is a Communist. I said besides, I take the position Abraham Lincoln took, that calling a cow' ; s tail a leg does not make it a leg. And I wasn' ; t bothered about any of it. HUNTLEY: How did you get involved with the Southern Conference Education Fund initially? SHUTTLESWORTH: I always was fascinated with the fact that so many teachers and leaders who just believe in empathizing or sympathizing with Black men for freedom were either harassed, driven out, or, in their jobs and so forth. HUNTLEY: These are whites. SHUTTLESWORTH: Whites, white people. And I was always moved with the fact that a few of them still lived in the South. Like the people in Montgomery, I forget their names. HUNTLEY: Durr' ; s, Virginia Durr, yeah. SHUTTLESWORTH: Durr' ; s, Virginia Durr and others. And the Bradens of Louisville, who simply bought a house for a Negro in a white neighborhood. And they were indicted for sedition, sedition, and Carl Braden was called before the House Unamerican Activities Committee and asked his opinions and he told them that his opinions wasn' ; t no damn business of the committee. And I just have always felt as if people like that needed to be supported. And interestingly, you' ; re talking about where the link between civil rights and civil liberties was sort of coordinated because when Dr. King was rising as a star you remember, the NAACP and others were real, what you say, careful about what he said, and he had to be careful about what he said, because the Southern senators and leaders were calling everybody Communist, or anybody who worked with them. With my being in the position I was, and I had the strongest affiliate, so I had equal voice with Martin or anybody else, and I always had the right the say what I felt and to do as I felt. Martin knew that. And so that they needed me more than I needed them at that particular time. So Anne Braden, I thought it was raw persecution. So I was asked to serve about fifty, may fifty-four, fifty-five-- HUNTLEY: Okay, that early? SHUTTLESWORTH: -- on the board with them. Dr. Hupp of West Virginia and Jim Dombrowski of New Orleans, and Anne and Carl Braden, oh, there were any number, I was surprised at the number. Bishop Love, and old Bishop Green, anybody who advocated lifting the cause of Negroes, of whites and Blacks working together, that' ; s what, the thing. And so, I gladly joined to be on the board. And as I had been on the board, I noticed that they accepted my position, and sort of leaned over backwards to be sure that to pay attention when I was there because I was a Christian, first of all, living in Birmingham. They could give me that whole body support without anything, and the challenges that I made. I had full sway. They didn' ; t try to sway my opinion one way or the other. Then later on, I became... I want to get to this point of how the civil rights and civil liberties became [inaudible] I realized that there actually could not be civil rights unless there are civil liberties, people [inaudible]. Martin and Ralph had much hesitation had to do with it. I was always a free spirit. When I was elected the president of Southern Council Education Fund this streaming from Jackson Daily News. As I recall, I was on one of my trips going back to Cincinnati and [inaudible] had come from Jackson, Mississippi. He was the NAACP membership chairman, and he had his blue streamer, showing it to me. He said, " ; Man, look at that." ; Negro path ahead is coming in front. That' ; s what it says, green paper with a black stream. I said, " ; Yeah, I know." ; He said, " ; Well, yeah, you get out of there as quick as you can." ; I didn' ; t come [inaudible]. You also must remember that at this time, NAACP has a lot of my cases. He couldn' ; t wait to get to Atlanta, because of [inaudible]. At this time they hadn' ; t built the new airport yet. You had to get on the bus and go around, and whatnot. [inaudible] I went and sat down, and he was like, " ; Yeah, yeah, Roy. I left the paper. It' ; s all over the papers, Roy. Yeah, he' ; s here now." ; I said, " ; You talked to Roy?" ; He said, " ; Yeah." ; I said, " ; Let me talk to Roy," ; because I know you have to take an issue here. I went to the front. I said, " ; Hi, Roy." ; They answer me and I said, " ; You know, in my [inaudible] I always ask y' ; all how is my neck, and who how you' ; re getting along." ; They had too many cases for me. I said, " ; Well, I hear [inaudible]. You know I' ; ve been elected to head the Southern Council Education Fund." ; " ; Yeah, yeah." ; I said, " ; And, of course, I understand that y' ; all have a lot of cases for me and I will understand it if you feel that you cannot defend me because I took it and I knew what I was doing." ; Roy was funny. He said, " ; Oh, yeah. Any man that' ; s segregated, you know we' ; re opposite." ; There was never anymore. HUNTLEY: That was it. SHUTTLESWORTH: Never any more hesitation from him. Then we had, as I recall, our convention in Louisville that same year. HUNTLEY: Southern Conference? SHUTTLESWORTH: SCLC. HUNTLEY: SCLC, okay. SHUTTLESWORTH: Either board meeting or the convention. I forget which time. Martin Luther King and Ralph, I knew I had to be straight out with them about it. So as I recall in Louisville at that time, we went to the airport and King and Abernathy and all coming over. Mahalia Jackson was there. We were going to this meeting. I remember in getting on the expressway, the car we were in struck another car and kept moving. SHUTTLESWORTH: I said to Martin, " ; Now, Martin, this is nuts. Nothing about it." ; Martin was in the front seat. Ralph was in the back seat and Mahalia Jackson, I believe, was over there. As I have said, I always believe in facing an issue and heading on. I think people make a terrible mistake when you know something is amiss or somebody has a question that you don' ; t address. You can do it more aggressively if you bring it up than you defending yourself. I said to Martin, to Ralph since we were in the back, I said, " ; Ralph, you know I' ; m head of the Southern Council Education Fund." ; " ; Yeah, I heard that. You get out of there as quick as you can." ; I said, " ; Well, I didn' ; t get in to get out of it." ; I said, " ; In fact, I' ; m coming up now to resign." ; I knew they couldn' ; t do all that. I quit talking, and I said, " ; Oh, yeah, Martin? You know I accepted the presidency of the Southern Council Education Fund." ; " ; Yeah, I heard that." ; " ; Now, it' ; s coming up so I can resign, because I don' ; t want to embarrass you." ; He said, " ; Oh, no, Fred. Nothing like that. We' ; re together." ; I said, " ; Well, that' ; s fine, because I want you to know that. I' ; ve been telling Ralph that I didn' ; t get in to get out of it, and I think we better to support each other, people who stand up for their rights and they' ; re harassed, they' ; ll have us done the same way. The only difference is we' ; re black." ; Martin said, " ; Oh, no. We' ; re all together." ; I said, " ; Well, I just wanted to know, and I just wanted you to know I' ; m prepared to resign if you think I should, but I don' ; t want to embarrass SCLC." ; You see, before that I had already, with Anne and Carl, we had started sending joint statements to the president of the United States. They had, Ann and them, knew all these auxiliaries were fighting, grassroots organizations. Martin had a big hesitation when he had to sign, but with my [inaudible], that broke the ice. You take really the Greensboro piece, the [inaudible] piece, Martin is dead now and Joe Lowry was the president. I took the position that the Klan had no right to stop other folks. Somebody from the office told me that Joe had said that I shouldn' ; t have made that statement. I said, " ; Well, Martin Luther King wouldn' ; t have agreed that the Klan had the right to deny other people entry, so I' ; m going." ; That meant Joe had to come, so that I would make... There were two reasons that we were able, not me along, but we were able to link civil rights and civil liberties. Of interest to Birmingham people is you must remember that Anne and Carl Braden, I gave them the right of coming to [inaudible] and speak to the black meal when Bull Connor was threatening to arrest everybody. I never will forget. All those new pilgrims at this church. I had Anne Braden come in and speak. The house was packed. I said, " ; No, Bull Connor thinks he' ; s running Birmingham, but somebody get a picture of this because [inaudible] Bull, I' ; m kissing a white woman." ; I kissed her in front of all the room. Then it came to the meeting, of course. These were done so people could see if you can really stand up and be men and women or die. We had to fight for black and white people working together, and that' ; s what' ; s needed in Birmingham even now. As much as we have problems with it, we need white people, white ministers, certainly more than anything else, to talk to white people about justice, about freedom, about accepting us whether we' ; re black, and vice versa. You' ; re not going to let black people teach things. White people need to teach white people. This is the time. The past behind us, and this institution, this civil rights institution, is one of the greatest things, I think, that has been established in Birmingham so that we can understand our past and white folks should not forget segregation no more than Negroes should forget the fact that they were slaves. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. After 1965... SHUTTLESWORTH: I haven' ; t said a lot about the revelation. You asked me, but we got off on that. Go ahead. HUNTLEY: After ' ; 65, we were talking about that... SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes, sir. HUNTLEY: The movement simply became more restless. You had SNCC who had become more aggressive, and they changed their language to non-violent protest. SHUTTLESWORTH: SNCC. HUNTLEY: To Student National Coordinating Committee, and Black Panther party was... SHUTTLESWORTH: Black power came up. HUNTLEY: Black power came up. How did that impact upon the movement? SHUTTLESWORTH: You must remember, at the time, and I was right there at the beginning, at the time of the [inaudible] march was when the black power enunciation became so rampant and pervasive. I would always speak ahead of Ralph, and Ralph would introduce Martin. We' ; d start on that Mississippi road and Stokely Carmichael would chant this black power. It was really bothersome to Martin, but we had to stand our ground and move on. Now, we had a relationship. We never had open arguments about it, and everybody knew my position. I was not for black power. I was for power for all people, but I wasn' ; t against these people who enunciated it, because they were saying that we was old hat, and suffering a long time without gaining appreciable gains in this country. We understood that, but we supported these students and the younger people' ; s objectives at all times. I don' ; t think there was ever a time when we went against what they were doing, and Martin would say, " ; I cannot endorse violence as a way of doing something," ; but that didn' ; t stop it. It was almost it gave Stokely and others a chance to see, to get the contrast on. You know, right now anything that' ; s contrasting hits the press, no matter what it is. HUNTLEY: In ' ; 66, ' ; 67, Dr. King, in 1967, he made his first speech against the war in Vietnam. How did that ring? I know with SNCC, because they had been trying to get him to talk about the war and against it, how did that sit with others in the movement? SHUTTLESWORTH: In the NAACP and many others, really, didn' ; t take it as well as you would have thought, although generally they knew that war is wrong. You remember, our economy was built on the war. Martin felt it was necessary to come out with it. SNCC and the others, this was back when they were saying it because the goods were going into the war, was taking up a lot of other things, and still does. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: A lot of us in the movement with Martin that that he was taking a bold chance. I have always felt, though, that truth has to be told somehow now. When and how it is done may be better done in one moment than another, but I knew the truth of what he was saying. I knew that the government was not going to look with favor as it had. First of all, to begin with, the government was afraid of us. We weren' ; t attacking them. We were trying to get justice within the system. Them Martin felt the necessity at the end. He' ; d been speaking about injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. Then I think there were a lot of people, and you must remember now, there was a lot of people talked to Martin that I did not know. I' ; m not the sponsor of everything that Dr. Martin Luther King said, but there were people of all sorts and all persuasions and all ideas that could get audience with him. Him being perhaps thrown in the position of being the chief spokesman, the articulator, because he could articulate what people feel, is a big burden on him. He had to fight, I' ; m sure, against many things. I though the was essentially right, and there were people on our own board who really disapproved vehemently. HUNTLEY: Was he speaking for the SCLC or for Martin Luther King? SHUTTLESWORTH: He was speaking basically for Martin Luther King, and he felt like as a person, he had to make that [inaudible] because it wasn' ; t the board' ; s decision. He said what he felt and so forth. Then the other thing you must realize is that every man will stand on his own conviction before God. He really takes your having come out from this or that. You ought to have a central conviction, and your devotion ought to be what God says first. SHUTTLESWORTH: I think the Acts of the Apostles set an example to, the early church Fathers. We ought to pay God rather than man. HUNTLEY: At that time also he started moving toward the poor people' ; s campaign. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. As you know, he died in the [inaudible] before that actually happened. He was moving into it and Johnson had launched the War on Poverty. I think the seeds of it came out of that. You' ; ve got to look at history and governmental programs are set up on an order that it has to have a structure. Well, many times the structure takes more than the fruits for the people down here. Maybe some of the conservatism even now would be good, and criticism, but I think constructive criticism would have talked about eliminating moving the excesses of the poverty program and making it so that it come down so that the people who are on the threshold of falling will be more benefited, even as right at this moment, the welfare thing that' ; s going to be turned back to the states, it' ; s going to create a terrific disability for a lot of people who are trying, because if you don' ; t provide jobs for the people to get off welfare, they can' ; t. If you limit their time, that' ; s going to have to be revisited. Then the other thing is that you give jobs, jobs that are making five or six dollars an hour. You can' ; t pay the rent and child care and all of that. That' ; s going to have to be provided. There' ; s always things that when government structures are set up, and I hope that the government will follow through and see to it that the states do what they do with compassion and with some degree of meticulosity, but we must bear in mind that states' ; rights cannot go back to becoming the way it was before the Civil Rights campaign. HUNTLEY: Where were you the day that Dr. King was assassinated? SHUTTLESWORTH: It was a Thursday as I recall. I was in my office because I was to, as I said before, we [inaudible] go in. We couldn' ; t stay all the time. He had called me, I believe it was, the last time we talked maybe a day or two before that, or either the week before. He had talked about the Memphis situation. Many times, the staff would be talking about things before I got it, because we weren' ; t together all of the time. He would call whenever he felt as if I' ; m needed or we' ; re going to get into a situation that' ; s sustained where all of us, and sometimes all of our [inaudible] would be getting together, and then again if he couldn' ; t be there and he' ; s somewhere else, I could come in and Ralph and other people, all of course exalting and giving support to the local people. This is what I insisted on, that we shouldn' ; t just go in and do our thing. It had to be a thing that you could get the local people together on. It was in ' ; 67 that I really came to that conclusion and said to Martin, " ; You cannot have people dividing under you, your leadership with you and yourself. You' ; re one group out of several movements. I think that we have to be careful of this." ; He said to me on this Memphis thing that we' ; ve got to go in and that it was a sort of a... He would organize all he could for the Poor People' ; s Campaign, but then what better than for garbage workers, people who spend their lives getting rid of our refuse, which would kill us if we didn' ; t get rid of it, and how important were they. I told him, " ; I don' ; t need to be sold on this." ; We' ; re fighting for the little people, and we' ; re fighting for the right of people to work, and despite excesses and unionism in some places, you still have to find the people to be together and people come together. It wasn' ; t no problem, but we had talked on that and one or two other things that we talked about. I had no idea that he was this close to death, but you know, here again I have to say that the speech that he articulated [inaudible] to some degree and some form, both [inaudible] and most of us that he led had said practically the same thing, because you feel the closeness to the judge. You have to remember that everybody thought that I would be the first one to be killed, and I did, too. Dr. King thought that I would be the first one to be killed. He and Ralph, we talked about it in meetings. Several times we' ; d talk about bravery and Dr. King would be like, " ; Fred, you' ; re braver than... You' ; re the bravest person." ; I said, " ; It doesn' ; t matter about that. It' ; s what you see and you have to do," ; and to a degree on a different scale, he felt the same way, even by speaking out against the war. We all felt that we were expendable, but it ought to be doing God' ; s will. I think that speech that he made that' ; s been played at his funeral, I just want to do God' ; s will. HUNTLEY: Drum major. SHUTTLESWORTH: Drum major, but he said I want to do God' ; s will. That' ; s what, if people could sort of bring in the midst of much of what we do, at least bring the discussion, bring in our discussion the thought of where is God' ; s place. How does this relate to that? I think leadership Alabama, leadership Birmingham, leadership this, we ought to be bringing in justice, I say. When we' ; re planning buildings, because buildings aren' ; t people, we' ; re planning our landscaping there, where is our justice? How is it going to affect? That ought to be discussed. That needs to be discussed. You know, as far as we could go, doctor, we' ; ve got a lot of [inaudible] to cover here. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. SHUTTLESWORTH: If we uncover, we' ; ll be majoring some things that may be minor in terms of importance. The internet does that and shows how fast we can go. We don' ; t even discover. We don' ; t know the benefits of nor the dangers of a lot of stuff that we' ; ve done. It seems to me that brotherhood and justice and how it' ; s going to affect people, even governmental controls that we talked about, that ought to be discussed. It ought to be discussed with the contractors or business people and even the young people who are black and becoming entrepreneurs and so forth. It ought to be a thing that' ; s included in our thoughts, because if you don' ; t think about something, you' ; re [inaudible]. That' ; s a challenge, I think, of our moment now. HUNTLEY: I skipped over a very important question. SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, got ahead. HUNTLEY: This is your interview, but that was the march from Selma to Montgomery. SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, yeah. That was they must remember that day. First march where they was beaten up. That was done mostly by John Lewis and SNCC. That' ; s wasn' ; t SCLC base that did that. That got them in [inaudible]. SNCC and John Lewis had broken with the so-called radical wing of SNCC, but they... You must remember that some of the students, some of the radical part, were still challenging people in Montgomery and all around. They were beaten up. So that the march at Selma, and I don' ; t know all of the doings of Selma, but I know John Lewis was in there, and whenever John Lewis was in there, he was going to be committed to non-violence. I didn' ; t really know because I probably would have planned to have been in it, but I' ; m glad to know that people can do things without me. I don' ; t have to be in everything. The older I get, the more conscious I am that my time is short anyway. HUNTLEY: You were there for the second part. SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, yeah. The second part is the one that I know about. I know how the government was trying to dissuade us and all, but I' ; m saying so this march went on. Well, then we had to. We had to, like these students in Nashville, came on this Freedom Ride. If we would have been true, we could not have been true to what we claimed to be and [inaudible] This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
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Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth (1996) (4 of 5)
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Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth discusses leading the Birmingham Movement. Part 4 of 5.
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19961210S4
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Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham
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1996-12-10
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Horace Huntley
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Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth
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Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011
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5.4 December 10, 1996 Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth (1996) (3 of 5) 19961210S3 02:02:16 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth Horace Huntley Video 1:|9(14)|20(15)|31(1)|46(11)|65(1)|78(17)|94(2)|109(5)|119(18)|132(14)|143(7)|156(7)|170(4)|180(4)|190(12)|201(13)|233(2)|248(10)|275(13)|286(3)|304(8)|324(13)|334(13)|354(9)|363(9)|380(10)|391(1)|404(13)|415(8)|429(3)|447(7)|456(15)|470(13)|485(2)|496(12)|505(12)|515(1)|526(5)|542(15)|556(8)|565(6)|575(3)|587(12)|603(3)|614(2)|626(7)|638(10)|648(6)|659(2)|676(3)|691(1)|708(1)|721(14)|732(8)|744(1)|766(12)|776(12)|795(3)|811(4)|823(14)|835(7)|849(1)|859(11)|874(5)|890(10)|909(7)|923(4)|935(11)|945(5)|967(5)|987(5)|1002(6)|1015(7)|1029(11)|1044(5)|1055(7)|1071(13)|1091(7)|1103(7)|1104(10)|1108(8)|1126(15)|1135(11)|1148(6)|1168(9)|1184(9)|1196(15)|1213(10)|1230(4)|1239(5)|1247(2)|1270(3)|1289(8)|1300(1)|1313(7)|1323(4)|1334(8)|1347(10)|1356(5)|1369(3)|1382(13)|1393(13)|1406(4)|1420(5)|1431(6)|1440(11)|1454(3)|1465(7)|1473(14)|1486(13)|1498(4)|1513(9)|1526(3)|1535(13)|1547(11)|1565(7)|1576(1)|1590(7)|1605(1)|1621(6)|1631(4)|1643(4) 0 https://youtu.be/03yhOw8F9ts YouTube video English Oral History Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth discusses leading the Birmingham Movement. Part 3 of 5. SHUTTLESWORTH: --And so he was gonna come in ' ; cause I would hear him in the back door saying and all. You scared and you gotta not (inaudible). So, when I heard him, I hollered back to him saying, " ; James I' ; m coming out I' ; m alright." ; " ; That you Reverend, you alright?" ; I said, " ; Yeah I' ; m alright I' ; ll get out in a minute go out and tell everybody be quiet." ; So, he was happy he turned around and went on back out and passed a policeman standing there so I put on a coat and went out there and him and his brother the policeman. I hit him right round in here somewhere. Big big guy weighs easy 300 pounds, 280 or so. And he had his cap on and he looked- we were at the back room. It was a six-room house and we were right where the back- you get off the back porch and get on the ground and he looked, and he saw me in took his cap off and took his handkerchief out and rubbed his eyes. I wondered- I never saw a policeman cry before. At least I thought he was. I didn' ; t say anything. So, then he turned around, put his cap on walked maybe from here to that door. He would have been not quite to the middle of the house. He turned and looked at me again shook his head. So, I' ; m walking along so he' ; s ahead of me as far to me and that door, so he walked on up maybe against another time between where I am and that door. Maybe 25 feet, which would be a little bit beyond the middle of the house. We hadn' ; t got to the crowd yet and on this side of the house, and he said- he hadn' ; t spoken all this time- and he said, Reverend, I' ; m so sorry. He said I know these people ; said I didn' ; t think they' ; d go this far. Said I really didn' ; t think they would go this far. He said I' ; m sure enough sorry. He said, Reverend, I' ; ll tell you what I' ; d do if I were you, I' ; d get out of town as quick as I could. But I hadn' ; t spoken to him either. So, I said, Officer -- I always just called them Officer -- I said, Officer, you are not me. And you go back and tell your Klan brethren that if the Lord could keep me through this, and bring me out of this, tell them the war is on and I' ; m here for the duration, it' ; s just beginning. He didn' ; t say no more, he turned around and walked off. And I walked out right behind him, and as I, as the Lord would have it, all policemen want to show their authority, you know, but people were really upset, it could have been a big thing, had I not sent Mr. Revis back out to tell folks I was alright and to be quiet and calm. But a policeman had challenged some young Negro, and just as I got past the porch through the hedgerow to the street, and this Negro was looking at this policeman and this policeman was saying something, he went to put his hand on his gun and this Negro had a knife, he say, I' ; ll cut your so-and-so throat, and this policeman, he could have pulled his gun out, and so I patted him on the shoulder, I said, Now we don' ; t need that. I said, Now, Officer, you need to control yourself. What you do if you can' ; t control yourself, I have to call down to there. I say, They' ; re excited. Said I' ; ll have to call down and get you to move from out there, say, ' ; cause you aren' ; t gone cause anybody any harm out here tonight. HUNTLEY: Was this was the same officer that? SHUTTLESWORTH: No, not the same, the big one had gone on. HUNTLEY: Okay. SHUTTLESWORTH: So, I went on to my car, see I was going to the car as they were there. I think some of them had wanted to come in, you know, or something. The police trying, Git back! You know how policemen do. So, I went on and sat in the back of the car that was waiting for me, I don' ; t really know now whether it was mine somebody had, take me to be checked out, but as I sat in the back of my car, just had this coat on, and the pants, and my little daughter was six years old then, the baby that' ; s in Washington, and she always sucked her finger, and so she came and curled up in my lap and put her finger in her mouth and looked up in my face. They can' ; t kill us, can they, Daddy? I said, No, darling, they can' ; t kill folks. That' ; s historic. HUNTLEY: That' ; s what the baby said? SHUTTLESWORTH: She said, They can' ; t kill us, can they, Daddy? Just like that. That was a night of nights. But I remember something, and I had a sense of a presence. Nobody can teach you that. It' ; s not, you can' ; t write it in a book fully. HUNTLEY: Now of course that was designed to kill the Movement, to frighten people away. SHUTTLESWORTH: To kill the Movement, and I got up the next day, and this is the other thing. You know it' ; s amazing what God does. The average person would have been scared and been gone. So, I said to the, to people in the Movement who came, I said, We gone meet first thing in the morning, ' ; cause we had said we gone ride the buses. The Klan didn' ; t intend for me to be around to ride. And the, so when daylight came, the police went and they wanted to know if I needed to tear -- I said, No, let it stay there, people are coming from everywhere to just pass by to see it, so I thought they should see it, I said, No, we' ; ve got time to get it down. I said it didn' ; t fall last night, it' ; ll stand up a while. And so, , I' ; m trying to think where it was, if it was in Mims' ; s house or right out there, that I -- Alford was one of the key ones, Rev. Alford, who said, I think we ought to think this thing-- (?) Stone, who was my Vice President at that time, said, President, I think you need to really go somewhere and think. I said, Alright, everybody meet down to Gaston' ; s, so that the people heard me tell them, meet down to Gaston' ; s place down here on Sixteenth Street or wherever it was. HUNTLEY: The motel? SHUTTLESWORTH: Not the motel, funeral home. HUNTLEY: Funeral home, okay, sixteenth street. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. And you' ; d be surprised at how God makes things come out. So, the press --naturally they' ; re going where I' ; m going -- so I knew I had to take total charge of the situation or it could be a mess that day. First of all, I was a challenge to ride. There was a need to be sure the people were disciplined to ride, remembering nonviolence. And there was a need to do what we say, else we have been dead. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: The Movement I mean. I could have been alive and yet the Movement would have gone unless we had at least announced a time to ride that day. So, when we got in, I said, Now, to the Movement, and you know the Lord does thing. I was preaching Sunday morning about how he made those Israelites, Egyptians, give them most of their jewels and stuff ' ; fore they left, so they had most of the riches of Egypt. I said to the newsman, we were friends, I said, Now gentlemen, I want to say something to you all. I said now I have to talk inside. I said I' ; m gone give you a scoop today, it' ; s worth your waiting, but I cannot have you at the meeting, would y' ; all respect that for us? Yeah! I said, But don' ; t go away now because when I come out, I' ; ll have a scoop for you, and I' ; ll let you know exactly when we gone ride. Well, they thought I' ; m going to be deciding whether to ride. Now inside, fear, fear is something. Most of my board members, I had ordered them to ride. I said all of the board members gone ride to show the other folks. And I was moved at how fearful they were. Rev. Stone, and Alford was almost (?). Now Brother President, I think that we ought to take time and think this thing out. I said, Well what is there to think out? I said, We said we were gone ride. And more than that, when I knew I was alive after the bombing, that' ; s the first thing on my mind. We gone do what we said we were gone do. I said it' ; s time for Negroes to learn to do what you say you gone do. And so, , Alford went on to say something else, but one little slender fellow -- I wish I knew his name -- he said, Now, Brother President, we come here to hear what YOU got to say, we didn' ; t come here to hear these scared folks, we gone do what you -- and he was actually crying, and a lot of other people were crying, ' ; cause first of all, here I am alive. I said, Well, alright, let me just say to everybody, said, Now, so far as members of the board, if you all are nervous or scared to ride, I said, when I leave here, we going to the buses. I said, now I won' ; t look back. Find you any crack that you want and hide if you can' ; t ride. Say, I' ; m not commanding, you' ; re free from that, you don' ; t have to ride ' ; cause I say so. I said, But I think enough people here will ride. I said, How many y' ; all want to ride with me? All the whole house went up. I think it even made some of the board members feel-- I said, Now, let' ; s get together. Now you would think this is something after a night of a bombing and terrifying, but I was as calm as a cucumber, even in that bombing when they were, I said, Then now we got to get ourselves ready. First place, I said, All y' ; all want to ride? Yeah. I said, Be sure you want to ride, you don' ; t have to, said, But somebody' ; s gone ride if it' ; s nobody but me. We' ; re with you, Brother President. Well, I said, I want you to ride, and I don' ; t want all you to ride with me. I said we' ; re going down to 18th and 19th Street, 21st, up in there where the buses crisscross. I said, We want to ride all over town. Said I don' ; t want you to get on, just go on one place. Go all over. Be sure somebody goes everywhere the buses go. I said, that' ; s one thing. The other thing, when you get on the bus, don' ; t gang up like blackbirds. I say, I don' ; t want no two Black folks sitting together up front. I said, All Black folks gone sit up front, but leave space for your white brothers to sit with you. HUNTLEY: One to a seat. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. I said, don' ; t no two Black folks sit, I say, you sit down and you sit over here so the white folks have to sit or let them stand. I said, y' ; all understand it took time. I think one of the things that really made the (inaudible) go well was my calmness. I wasn' ; t excited. I said and didn' ; t nobody ask me was I nervous. I said now one reason the press, I didn' ; t put the press out ' ; cause, if the press heard me say we gone ride today, the police would be up here and we can' ; t get to the buses. I say, so the next thing is I don' ; t want anybody here to gang up around me when we go out from here. Go, somebody start walking this way. But, the goal is, in so many minutes be down in those four-block areas where you crisscross the buses. I say, and let the press talk, you be saying and talking ' ; about nothing. I say, But we get to the buses today if we going to make history. I said, Klan made their history last night, we make ours for God today. And they were so glad. First of all, glad I was alive, was crying for me. I said, We don' ; t have to get emotional about it. And my oldest daughter had been burned, not from the bombing, and here again God does some things for you. I better tell you this ' ; cause, see, people have to understand that God is saving us every day and we don' ; t know it. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. SHUTTLESWORTH: She would get up early with an outing gown on and help her mama cook in the morning. And so, happened I was traveling everywhere then. I would just come home and change clothes and get right back on the road for days at a time. And so, happened that night that I stayed home, I didn' ; t come and go right out, I stayed until the next morning, which I was going out the next day, ' ; cause I had invitations everywhere. And she got up early, and she had this outing gown on and was standing in front of this open-face heater and that outing caught fire. And I' ; m lying in the bed, and I hear my wife was saying, Oh Pat, oh Pat, oh oh Pat, what! And she was -- and I got up and the girl' ; s gown was burning up the back of her thighs. My oldest daughter is burned on, and even her in stomach. And I could see it was reaching her hair and I just threw her down and beat the flames out, burnt my fingers and so forth. So, she had to go to the Jefferson Hospital here, thing rolled over, just like you, just like a burnt pig, you know. But she was real touchy, one thing, and I thank God for it today, she ain' ; t gone miss nothing coming here to church, all she was saying was that she hate she missed church. But I rode to see her, that was the only place I was going, then I was going back home, you see, to see whatever else happened with anybody else that rode. So, then I called the press in after I had everybody calm. I said, Now you all decide. Two or three people want to ride in every area, at least three or four. I called the press in. I said, gentlemen, you all want the scoop I was gone give you? Yeah. I said, Well, I' ; m sure you wanted me to announce to you the date when we gone ride, right? Yeah. I said, And I appreciate your, said I got one more thing to ask. I said, In the first place, I said suppose I, I said you want to know the date? Yeah. I said before I tell you the date, let me ask you a favor. I said whenever we ride and the police see me talking to you, they gone know that I' ; m gone do something ' ; cause they know I' ; m in action. I said, So, whenever I tell you, I don' ; t want you to go ahead of us, whenever that is, alright? I said, ' ; Cause if you go ahead of us at the buses, the cops gone know we coming, we won' ; t even get there. I said, y' ; all know that, don' ; t you? Yeah, yeah. I said, would you promise that whenever we arrive, you won' ; t just go ' ; way up ahead of us, I said, stay with us, talk to folks, and you know where the buses going, if these things. One of them said, Well, you ain' ; t said when. I said, I' ; ll tell you when when you tell me what. I said, you can agree to that, then I' ; ll tell you when we gone ride. He said, we gone follow you. You always have worked with us and we have respect for what you' ; re doing. I said, Okay, we gone ride today. Gone ride TODAY? I said, Yeah, we gone ride today, right now in fact, and said, so don' ; t go ahead of us. Talk to people, stay behind, all of it. Some of you can talk to me, talk. And we went up, and over two hundred and fifty people rode that day, all over. HUNTLEY: Is that right? And this is right after the bombing. SHUTTLESWORTH: Next day. HUNTLEY: Fifty-six. SHUTTLESWORTH: Next day. HUNTLEY: Were you arrested? SHUTTLESWORTH: No. HUNTLEY: Nobody was arrested. SHUTTLESWORTH: I, I rode, see, the police thought we were gone go down and decide to ride next two, three days, they were getting ready for then. HUNTLEY: So, they were not prepared. SHUTTLESWORTH: When they heard the thing, we had already ridden, so they did arrest twenty-two, I believe it was, wasn' ; t it? Believe the first ride was twenty-two. HUNTLEY: Yeah, that' ; s right it was twenty-two, that' ; s right. SHUTTLESWORTH: Twenty-two. And that give us the thing to make the case so we didn' ; t have to continue to ride. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: So, I rode on to the hospital, saw my daughter, came on back home. And by the way, the press was with me, you know, so I got up and gave a, so we were sitting down, a young white girl got up so I, ' ; bout halfway there, I said, Would you like to have my seat? (laughs) It was nice. But that' ; s how we did it. And people were right, and I said, and they said, God saved him to lead the fight. And that' ; s how I got to be the leader, it wasn' ; t because, you couldn' ; t have gotten Black folk in Birmingham to vote to face nothing like that. And I don' ; t think most of the people who write about it understand. Even Dr. King was candid enough to say, I could not have done and survived and led the people in Birmingham, see. But the bombing, see, God does things in a way that you know nobody but He, just like the Red Sea. And that' ; s the only reason I' ; m alive. See, that' ; s why I think you should put those pictures up so folks will see what you come through. That' ; s why I led Birmingham and why I didn' ; t have to fight for leadership. HUNTLEY: So, the people actually saw what had happened. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. HUNTLEY: And that was like your baptism. SHUTTLESWORTH: That was my baptism, but it was-- HUNTLEY: into leadership. SHUTTLESWORTH: It was induction into leadership. They knew that I wasn' ; t afraid because if I could come out of that and get up and ride the buses the next day, challenging the system, segregation (inaudible) HUNTLEY: So, in effect, you along with the people, then, set the example for the rest of your leaders, in effect. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. HUNTLEY: Because they were basically afraid. SHUTTLESWORTH: They were afraid, they were afraid. But that did a lot, see, that bombing, and my coming out of it, and then, see, I could afford to preach God will provide, God will take care of you. And then I was never afraid, see, I was always saying that, moving on to something else, see, I never just stopped on the ground conquered, you, what that thing in the old Christian vernacular said, Each victory that you win over sin helps you some other to win, fight manfully onward, and that' ; s been my drive. And I guess I' ; m a little bothered today because Black people, they think they' ; ve got it together, but they don' ; t have it together. And we' ; ve allowed the drug subculture, we' ; ve allowed rock-and-roll, we' ; ve allowed rapping and other things to sort of take the idealism from the forward march. And then there' ; s a tendency now, one of the things that disturbed Martin Luther King before he died was, you can' ; t guarantee that you' ; re gone have a nonviolent march at any time. You remember the violence in Memphis? But he was committed to nonviolence and so am I. HUNTLEY: And that was very significant because that basically was the stance of the Movement. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. HUNTLEY: And that, again, was part of that belief that you had. In order to really believe in nonviolence, you had to have that belief in God. SHUTTLESWORTH: You see, one of the -- I don' ; t know whether you want to just starting about incidents -- we can get a thousand, St. Augustine, Florida, here. But that was just the bombing thing. But one of the other most significant incidents, and there were many, and I guess we' ; ll get to them. HUNTLEY: Let' ; s get to them, we' ; ve got time for one of them now. SHUTTLESWORTH: In nineteen-fifty-seven, that was a tremendous year, we had, started out with the Carl and ________ Baldwin in March, and the court denied our petition for the schools. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And so, then it said something about the placement laws, Boutwell come up with the placement laws. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. SHUTTLESWORTH: So, I decided to make Boutwell place our children (laughs). I knew it was segregation, I wasn' ; t moved. The Supreme Court could have declared it unconstitutional but said they would allow it on its face, in application. And here again, I blame the Supreme Court, because you see, white flight is largely a result of the negligence of the Court in moving to do things. HUNTLEY: That' ; s significant. SHUTTLESWORTH: That' ; s significant. And another thing I would say if I had any one biggest problem I had with Martin, after we came here and won the victory -- because people in Birmingham after that would have done anything, we had the victory -- I said to him the next thing ought to be, let' ; s integrate these schools so that the white folks won' ; t run. Course we went to Selma, as you know, and then to St. Augustine, Florida. But I said, if we integrate Birmingham schools before the white folks move out, that' ; ll start others across, you must realize that, you throw a rock in the water and it has a ripple effect. And I was, I was real disappointed, many writers have questioned Martin' ; s, and there are questions to be raised about it. But I was concerned to integrate the city and Martin was concerned with his name during this, and I think we both had kindred ideas and naturally he would have had his image to deal with, and I don' ; t mind supporting his image so long as it does help (help?). You see, the violation of the court order, that had to be. Wasn' ; t no way that Martin Luther King was gone come to Birmingham and get that many people in jail and not violate the court order. That' ; s a whole other thing, and that' ; s where we had this confrontation which even involved the President of the United States. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: Where I was bombed, went to the hospital that night, struck with a fire hose? That' ; s a chapter in itself. HUNTLEY: Yeah. SHUTTLESWORTH: But, all in all, and I' ; ll just say this and maybe we won' ; t get into detail. HUNTLEY: Let me ask you to just talk briefly about the incident at Phillips High School. SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, at Phillips, fifty-seven, September. Okay. The Court said that the board had a right to " ; place" ; students, by all that " ; pupil placement law" ; . Well, I knew they weren' ; t going to place a lot of Negro students with white. And I didn' ; t think mine was going to really get in Phillips, to be honest with you. But history would have to record that we attempted to do, that was why, and that' ; s the second time I came ninety percent of dying, right there. So, I always announced and sent the police everything what I was gonna do, and I must candidly say to you that the policemen that were there were enough to have prevented what did happen, had they wanted to. But the Klansmen intended that, they had missed me in the bombing, fifty-six, Christmas night (inaudible) Christmas again, September fifty-seven, and I' ; m harassing and everything. So, they said, they met there and they said, Let' ; s get this s. o. b. I don' ; t mean ___?___. Said, If we kill him -- (inaudible) -- it' ; s all over. HUNTLEY: Where is this? SHUTTLESWORTH: In front of Phillips High School. HUNTLEY: This is what they are discussing as you. SHUTTLESWORTH: They are saying, when I' ; m driving up, getting out of the care, Here he is, let' ; s kill this S.O.B. today and it' ; s all over. See, I had never seen brass knuckles before that day, and other things. And so, it was, it was two, maybe it was, I' ; m trying to see was it three or five policemen there. And so, when I, my two daughters in the back, and the young man, with my wife, were in the back. They were in the back, my wife' ; s in this side, so she got out. So, when I got out, they came, they went after the car. Here again, you must look at the faithfulness of God. When I drove up, I act just normal like I' ; m gone get out and go in, and guy was over her, and they took my coat an pulled it over my head, I couldn' ; t have fought had I wanted to, and carried me, kicking, stomping, knocked me down, must have fallen at least three or four times within the space of thirty feet, twenty-five, twenty feet from the car, and they were kicking and stomping and howling, and one policeman, instead of him using his blackjack or something, said to them, aw, you don' ; t have to do that. I think they intended to let them get to me. Whether they intended to let them kill me or not I can' ; t judge, but I know the Klansmen intended to. So, one guy had a bicycle chain, another one had brass knuckles. I was struck with the brass knuckles at least twice. And kicked, and as God would have it, and my wife got out to get the girls and the young man out of the back, and she had on a real thick girdle and one Klansman stabbed her in the hip with a switchblade knife. She didn' ; t know that she was stabbed until the doctors over there examined me in the hospital and her hip started stinging, and they had to take care of her. So, we never got beyond the sidewalk, so they put her, after they stabbed her she had to get back in the car. And they didn' ; t even bother the car. Look at what God does. Phifer had the sense of mind to wait. He didn' ; t drive off. They were not attacking the car, they intended to kill me on the streets that day. HUNTLEY: You were the target. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. And the door was left open of the car. So, they had taken me down, oh I guess far as that corner at least twice, kicking and stomping and hitting and, I' ; d been struck, and it was morning about nine-thirty, ten o' ; clock, between ten and eleven, somewhere, and I began to understand that if I keep getting hit, every time I' ; d hit, the light would become gray, and I realized I had to get back to the car, see, and I began to just discern where the car was, and I was about half, I was about to lose consciousness but God would have, unless I would have died on the sidewalk, so I began to struggle to get back to the car, so they were pummeling me and hitting me but we were going back toward the door. And one guy had a chain and he got right in front of the car door, he didn' ; t shut the door, and he was swinging this chain, I could discern, and the guy had struck me with the brass knuckles again, and it was just gray and dull, and I knew if this guy had hit, he was setting to hit me again across the head with that chain, and I knew if he hit me again I would fall right there, and so he was swinging, and I said on the hot CBS film, Who Speaks for Birmingham?, a mob is so out of control that they' ; re not really in control of what happens all the time. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And so, while he was getting ready to swing, I just, I knew I had to get in the car, so I just sort of stumbled into him and he bowled over, he didn' ; t even get a chance to hit me. And I fell into the car and Phifer reached across and pulled my arms in the car and as I was getting in the car one guy kicked me into my side and I had just a slight few drops of blood in my urine, only time, that day. And I saw the camera, I wish I could find it, but we turned away, as Phifer was driving away, to that next street from the, that way, my feet was still hanging out the door. HUNTLEY: Your wife and children were in the back seat. SHUTTLESWORTH: Them in the back, they were shut up. HUNTLEY: And your feet are just dragging. SHUTTLESWORTH: My feet were out the door as we were going off. So, then, we go over the hospital, they had these two little nurses cleaning me up, white, both white. One of them segregated with me, and she was saying, Damn if I would let somebody do something like this, why, what, so I said, well you, and the other girl was trying to hush her up. I said, Well, you wouldn' ; t understand if I told you. And they were cleaning me up, see, I was, skin was all off, and I had been struck here and here, and I really thought my arm was broken. So, they kept on, and I just didn' ; t say anything else. And so, that other girl said, well, ain' ; t no use to keep asking him, he told you you wouldn' ; t understand. After look like an eternity, wasn' ; t that long, a doctor came in, nice little old fellow, came in so apologetic, and he was so sorry. And he said, Well, Reverend, I' ; m so sorry, I just, and you know, lying on that thing out, everybody who could walk, it was all on TV, would come by and look at me, and I' ; m nearly like a skinned pig. And the doctor said, so he took me in the examining room actually, and I don' ; t know how many x-rays he took of me. It looked like he come back and do it over or something. And after a while he said, I guess you wonder why I' ; m taking so many. He said, It looks like to me you had a terrible beating. He said, I' ; m trying to find a crack in your head, at least a contusion -- I think that' ; s a small crack -- he said, but I can' ; t find anything, x-rays don' ; t show it. It didn' ; t bother me. I said, Well, doctor, the Lord knew I lived in a hard town so he gave me a hard skull. And he took my pressure after a while, and it was normal, I wasn' ; t upset. HUNTLEY: Pressure was normal. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, I was just as calm as a cucumber in September. But I knew I had to get to the Movement that night ' ; cause Negroes had gone through a whole lot and I knew that after the bombing and with all of this, if they weren' ; t contained this night, violence could easily happen. So, I went home, so the doctor said, well, I' ; d like for you to stay at least overnight so I can observe you, he said, I can' ; t order you but I' ; d like for you to. I said, well, doctor, I' ; m glad you can' ; t order me ' ; cause I' ; d have to resist the order. I said, in the first place, the only I would willingly stay, you' ; d have to have to two policemen inside and two outside the door to watch them. I said, now if I die at home I would die among my friends, but I think I' ; m all right. He said, well, I understand, Reverend, and I will release you but I really wish I could observe you ' ; cause you gone have some problems. I said, no more problems than the Lord wants me to have. He admired my courage and all that. I went on home. And I knew I had to get back to there, so we were at Rev. Stone' ; s church over at New Hope just over that bridge, First Avenue. And you couldn' ; t get around again people were half a block around because it' ; s all over the news. HUNTLEY: We can start again tomorrow but see that--what you' ; ve done there is you' ; ve put another piece into the bombing piece. See, all of that of course in designed to kill the movement, while in effect doing just the opposite. SHUTTLESWORTH: Doing just the opposite. HUNTLEY: With those ministers who were afraid, the people with your help, with you leadership were the ones that went on to carry it on. I mean that' ; s marvelous--you earned your keep today. [Interview resumes the next day- December 11, 1996] HUNTLEY: Just give me a little more on the mob violence at Phillips High School that you were discussing yesterday. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, it was one of the three or four incidents where I was right in death' ; s jaws, God wouldn' ; t let me die. As I said yesterday, they really intended to kill me. They felt, they were shouting it out, let' ; s kill this S. O. B. and other words, and it' ; s all over. And I was aware that they were trying to kill me. And it' ; s an amazing thing how you can submit yourself, even under pressure, and even understand, people must understand that faith goes much farther than we believe, or we understand. It takes hold, I guess, when you can' ; t do anything else anyway. As I said, they had taken me sort of twenty or thirty feet from the car. And I had to kind of stumble and cajole, not cajole, not fight with them, I couldn' ; t have fought anyway, but stumbling back toward the car because I realized that every lick caused the brilliance to turn into a sort of a grayness. And on my way back to the car, amid the kicks, curses and the slanders, people running into each other trying to do me harm, I was struck again with that chain and I realized -- I was struck again, I' ; m sorry, with the brass knuckles, and I realized that if I had gotten another lick I probably couldn' ; t have even made it to the car, but I was very determined to make it, so I just, they were holding me, pulling me and so forth, and I was just stumbling to the car, and as I say yesterday, one guy was sitting near the door of the car and he was swinging that chain, he had struck me with it already once or twice, and I knew if he hit me I wouldn' ; t make it into the car, and so, and I don' ; t know what, you have to give God credit for how you come through. There was nothing that I had to prevent him from swinging and hitting me, I couldn' ; t have anyway. But he was trying to get set to hit me, and I just sort of stumbled into him, and he bowled over and then I reached up and began pulling myself up into the car. And as I said yesterday, the camera, Phifer kept the door open, see, had he closed the door or had driven off, I would have died right there, see. We talk about how good God is and how he provides for any eventuality. See, we' ; ve got to remember that God does move in human affairs. He does do some critical things. So, and the camera caught it as I viewed it then, my feet were sticking out as the car pulled off and turned left from Phillips High School, went on over to the hospital. HUNTLEY: Were there any efforts on the part of the Movement to have others there, other Black people there when you were going in or nearby or anything of that nature? SHUTTLESWORTH: Rev. Woods always tells now, whenever he introduces me a lot, about how he was -- this is always a joking thing -- and I had decided, we had gotten together and I said, Woods, I want you to drive me. Woods was kind of nervous, said, I, I, I, I, Rev. Phifer, who was real bold, Phifer said, I' ; ll drive you. He said, yeah, yeah, yeah, Phifer, you drive! And Woods tells that he viewed the scene and kept close eyes on us around the corner from where the action took place, he was there. HUNTLEY: He was there. SHUTTLESWORTH: Other side of Philips High, but he didn' ; t come and get into the melee but he observed what was going on. But I, people are always thrilled to hear him tell how he wasn' ; t quite as brave, and he always said, well, I always thought Fred was trying to get us killed. (Laughter) But we went on the hospital and I think I was telling you about how those nurses were, one -- it' ; s amazing how even white people have different conceptions of things -- one was quite __?__, thinking I was a damn fool, this and that, or anybody who would let this happen -- why would you do it? They were cleaning me up, you see, getting me ready for the doctor to come. And I had said once, you wouldn' ; t understand if I told you, and I didn' ; t say any more, that other girl just kept, both of them white, said, he already told you you wouldn' ; t understand. But I just can' ; t, so I didn' ; t say anything. And it' ; s amazing, you might wonder sometimes how I was feeling or what I was thinking about. HUNTLEY: Yeah, that' ; s obviously what I' ; ve been thinking about, after going through all that, you still have your wits about you. SHUTTLESWORTH: I had my wits, I was calm, as I said, when the doctor finally came in and took my pressure first, and I think it was amazing that my pressure was normal. God controls things, I wasn' ; t nervous. And as I told you, most of the ambulatory people come down the hall, looking, and there I was lying on this, like a skinned pig I guess. My little girl, if there are some pictures you have already for sitting by me, the oldest child. And the doctor came and of course he was so very apologetic, said I' ; m sorry to hear, but my mind was on the fact that I had to get to the Movement that night. Because I knew with the tensions mounting, the police had been harassing us, and with my being mobbed, it was all over the paper, I had to at least put in a presence at the Movement, I felt I should, and let them know what nonviolence meant to us at that moment, and what violence would mean and would to do the Movement if they engaged in violence. So, the doctor examined me, as I said yesterday, quite extensively, I thought he took too many x-rays, he said I guess you notice I' ; m taking all these x-rays, but I have to know, it' ; s impossible for me to believe that you could come through all of this without any fracture, and I can' ; t even find a contusion -- I think that' ; s a small one. And I always had a ready answer -- Doctor, the Lord knew I lived in a hard town so he gave me a hard skull. That seemed to, look like, relieve him. He said, yeah, I understand. We both discussed the fact that God was in it, you know, God' ; s will. And he asked me, he' ; d like to observe, he said, that you really need to be in the hospital, and I' ; d like to observe you overnight at least. And that just wouldn' ; t set with me because I said to him, now doctor, if I go home and die I' ; ll die among my friends. And if you order me to stay here, you' ; d have to have at least two policemen inside the room and two on the outside. And automatically I began thinking that if I had to stay, I would have written out some directions for the Movement. They expected me. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: See, the Movement expected me to give them direction. And I knew that they were depending on me. So, he said, I was real pleased when he said, Reverend, although I can' ; t force you to stay, said, I really wish you would. And I told him I said, if I go home, I' ; ll die among my friends, over here I can' ; t have anything to do with my death if I die. He said, I understand, so he released me, reluctantly, and I went home, and I was struck on this -- I thought this wrist was broken, and my knee, scarred, I was scarred all over, you know, really, we are as white under our skins as anybody else. HUNTLEY: Hmm. SHUTTLESWORTH: I was struck here, back of my head, I had some scars as was pointed out in that CBS film, I forget where they are now. HUNTLEY: So, there were cameras on the scene? SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh yes, yes, it was cameras just -- and they knew it. They didn' ; t care, they intended to get it over, they intended to kill this s. o. b. and other names they were calling me. But I wasn' ; t fearful, it' ; s an amazing thing. HUNTLEY: What was going through your mind at the time that all of this was going on? SHUTTLESWORTH: (Laughing) I knew you would -- I knew, people ask me that, and I knew you would. You' ; d be amazed how your sensibilities focus on not only what is happening, but you understand the meaning of the moment and even the needs of the moment and you feel a sense of sorrow that it has to happen this way, and yet you also understand that it has to be undergone, it has to be, it' ; s sort of akin to what that Gethsemane word he said, nevertheless if it' ; s your will, I' ; ll do it. And you' ; re resigned to death, see. You must understand, I had no hesitation, if death had come that day, I believe the Lord would have been ready for me. But I was more sorry for these men, you can' ; t understand, and I said in that film, how otherwise sensible, ordinary citizens, could allow themselves to be whipped up into a mob and they knew that they were being photographed but they didn' ; t care. HUNTLEY: Explain that how can you be taking all this punishment, this brutality, and you are feeling sorry for your attackers? SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, let' ; s don' ; t think that anybody can' ; t do it if God' ; s spirit, you must understand that we are human beings, we are flesh, but there' ; s something about us that' ; s above and beyond our flesh -- our spirits. And that' ; s what' ; s connected to God. And if people can realize that we are to become a little bit more spiritual and receive divine unctions and impulses and directions from the Great Spirit of the universe, all of us could do better, and we would fear less, you see. Now Charles Billups, when he was taken out later on -- he was fifty-eight -- by the Ku Klux Klan, and I think they tied him to a tree and branded KKK on his stomach and beat him up and he was in the hospital, and that Sunday morning Nelson Smith and I went over to visit him. And I could hear him before we got in there, and he was saying, the first words he said to us was, You know what? I felt sorry for these men, I said, Lord, forgive them for they don' ; t know what they' ; re doing. You see what I mean? This is what God puts, makes available to us if we would use it. And it would really do away with a lot of our anger. And it' ; s sort of what King was talking about, if you can understand the spirit of nonviolence, even though you are hurt you don' ; t want to hurt anybody else. You don' ; t want to see anybody hurt but, but in a crisis, in a moment of, really, death, when you can' ; t do anything but die or live according to God' ; s will, you can be committed, you can be resigned, and yet you can be prayerful, and I was not only resigned to whatever God wanted, I was prayerful, but I was also determined to use whatever little strength I had, and commitment, to get to the meeting that night because I had to speak to them, so that they could control their emotions and control their anger and their rage. And so, I went home and, they took me home, and naturally people came in all through the day but I was trying to relax and everything, and I would speak but my mind was on that night ' ; cause I knew there was going to be a multitude around New Hope, close to First Avenue viaduct. And I didn' ; t know how extensively I was hurt. So, my arm was sort of aching, and we had to put that in a sling so I wouldn' ; t be holding it down and it would be worse, so I put it in a sling, not for dramatic effect because I never believe in putting on airs. I detest people who put on shows, I think the biggest show that was ever put on was Calvary, for us, and I don' ; t think we ought to be putting on a show. That wasn' ; t a show, that was real, that was God' ; s love. And so, we ought to be involved in realness insofar as humanly possible. But anyhow, this isn' ; t a sermon, but it' ; s just what I feel. HUNTLEY: Sure. SHUTTLESWORTH: I asked the Lord, I remember that day, to not let me sink into a -- because I realized that when you' ; re hit on the brain and beat all over a lot -- and I told you I had taken at least eight or ten blows directly on my head -- not to sink into a state where I couldn' ; t command my facilities or, and at least couldn' ; t be, wouldn' ; t be, communicable, to the people that I went to see, and I really didn' ; t want to develop a feeling of anger, and I didn' ; t, thank God, because angry people don' ; t express things best, even their good intentions, they don' ; t express it best when you' ; re angry. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And so, as the Lord would have it, I just laid down and relaxed. ' ; Cause see, I knew God was in control, my friend, if you know he' ; s in control and if you know at least you' ; re doing what you' ; re supposed to do, there' ; s a strength in that, there' ; s a sort of a resignation that you' ; ve done a job or you were trying to do, and where it says that if you love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, mind, soul and strength, says if you give it all you have nothing to fear. And I think that' ; s the meaning of if you lose for His sake, you' ; ll find. You' ; ll find better life. And so, I got up that evening and put on my clothes and I had to put my hand in a sling because it was actually aching, and my knee was struck. I' ; m trying to see, I believe, if I recall, I had a cane because I didn' ; t want to give way in my knee. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: I said yesterday that, I said in our other interview that I had blood in my urine that afternoon when I got home. But that' ; s the only time I ever saw the blood. I expected it more than that, I told the doctor and he thought that I was going to have, and asked me to keep in touch with him, but I never had to call him back. HUNTLEY: Is that right? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, and so, my mind now is going to this meeting. And actually, there were so many people around the church. HUNTLEY: People couldn' ; t even get in the church. SHUTTLESWORTH: You couldn' ; t get in, the church was full, and I said to them, you know, they were so glad to see me, and they were -- and to see me in a sling and with a stick, you know, and then I was scarred, you could visually see my scars -- it really set them off, and I was listening as I go in, you know, I told them, I' ; ll speak to you when I get back, so they made way for me to get in the church, and I got into the church and went up the aisle, and everybody was glad to see me and they were really incensed at how I looked. HUNTLEY: How you appeared. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, how I looked. So, and my idea was that here nonviolence lives or dies, and how do you express it, how do you do it? And I wasn' ; t thinking so much about that because as I told you before, God had always given me the ready word. I didn' ; t have to sit down and think what I was going to say, and I don' ; t think really people need to put on. You ought to be yourself. Be your best self-connected with the best about you, your inside and outward. It' ; s what makes the best communication anyhow. So, I didn' ; t have a written speech or nothing, and I didn' ; t intend to stay because I was beaten up and ill. And when I got there and I sat on the platform, I didn' ; t go behind the thing, and I sat on the edge of the platform, and I said, I hope you' ; ll forgive me if I sit down, as you can see I' ; m a little wounded. And I, another thing that people realize, you have to face issues head on, you can' ; t back off, you don' ; t need to cut around and subterfuge, I said, Well, alright, how many y' ; all mad in here tonight? Everybody raised their hands. In fact, you' ; re mad as hell, aren' ; t you? Yeah, yeah, yeah! Said, in fact, you could tear up the town, couldn' ; t you? Yeah, yeah! We gone, we gone. Someone said, Ain' ; t gone get away with this, and all this kind of stuff. And I said, Well, I can understand this. I can understand how you would feel. I said, But you know what I' ; ve been telling you all the time? This is the price of victory. I said now, since you' ; re mad, say everybody in here mad. I said, well, you know it' ; s amazing thing, I' ; m not mad. I said, how many y' ; all were beaten up? Raise your hands. Said, Nobody was beaten up but me, and I said, well, it' ; s strange I was beaten up and I' ; m not mad and I' ; m not angry, ' ; cause I know this is what it takes for us. And then I said, this is sort of akin to what the Lord had to go through in the Garden of Gethsemane. And you know, it' ; s an amazing thing how that just settled down. I said, So, you will tell everybody, inside and outside, that we tonight are going to have our meeting, and I' ; m sorry I can' ; t stay with you. Got to go back home and go to bed, but you will have our meeting and when you get through we are going home, going through the streets nonviolently. And not mad, I don' ; t want a windowpane burst nowhere, and if anybody does do it, I want you to report to me so I can tell the police that that person did it trying to hurt the Movement. And I think that saved, it was God' ; s way of preserving what we had done and build on it. And by my being, I guess, the leader who was willing to suffer like this, it sort of had a discipline. You know the Movement has a lot of value in Birmingham, they had far less crime during those terrific days than they had since or before. HUNTLEY: Right, ' ; cause you had people who were-- SHUTTLESWORTH: Who were committed to something, and I don' ; t want to mix a whole lot of things, I want you to-- HUNTLEY: That' ; s alright. SHUTTLESWORTH: But I remember the second time, the second bus ride, remember when the, the dubious ruling about sit up front and reasonably request? HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And this time I, we had thirteen people arrested instead of-- HUNTLEY: That' ; s right, you didn' ; t ride that time but you were arrested. SHUTTLESWORTH: I didn' ; t ride, I was always the Kingfish that got Andy in trouble so they' ; d get me for conspiracy and causing a breach of peace and all this kind of stuff. But the point I' ; m getting at is while I was in jail, one guy was seventy-four years old at that time, same age I am now. And old people back then used to wear handkerchiefs on their heads so we in jail, and oh, I don' ; t remember how many of us were in that cell, eight or nine, cell was about like this, and I was lying up on the top bunk, there' ; s another bunk down there and people were talking, and this man, I was kidding him about this head rag, you know, and he came over to me to the bunk and said in front of them, he said, you know, he said today is my birthday, say I' ; m seventy-four years old today. He said I' ; ve been living all of my life, and I just found today something to live for. Segregation you see. Took incentive, there was no, there was nothing. As I used to say sometime and do now in speeches, we knew back then what we could not be. Young people now have to realize, perhaps, what they can be. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. SHUTTLESWORTH: and move on. But if we did all this, if we had that kind of courage, if young people, who helped even to win the Movement, had the courage, knowing what they couldn' ; t be, to struggle nonviolently in a directed way and take direction, then what ought we be doing now, when we can be anything? See, they were talking about a Black man running for president or vice president. Just think of this. HUNTLEY: Unthought of at that time. SHUTTLESWORTH: Unthought of. Here in this city, couldn' ; t be a policeman, couldn' ; t be a fireman, couldn' ; t drive a bus. And we have to say these things, and the young people will have to talk to young people. It may be true that sometimes young people don' ; t listen to their elders or something, and maybe it is a period of disillusionment with the system, but young college people, young people who aren' ; t in college, will have to say to others, look, we' ; re depending on you, you' ; re a part of us, and we' ; re all a part of the future. HUNTLEY: How many times did you go to jail? SHUTTLESWORTH: (Laughs.) I quit counting at about thirty, I think it was, twenty-five or thirty or something like that. HUNTLEY: Was there any time that stands out in your mind of events that took place once you were in jail? SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, you must remember that I had the consciousness of what people could do to me in jail, that the system would kill me. And remember this, about that time I think a third of our police force were Klansmen or Klan-affiliated. Bull Connor had the sensibilities of a friendship with the Klan. And I always at that time -- it' ; s amazing how God prepares you -- if I' ; m going to be arrested, there were people who made sure I got to the jail, just followed, you know, far off. HUNTLEY: You mean, your people. SHUTTLESWORTH: My people. And you know, it' ; s amazing. People would do anything I say, and when I would be arrested or knew they wanted to arrest me, I would be arrested at my own time. They' ; d be looking for me, and I' ; d call the chief up and say, you looking for me? Yeah, where are you? I' ; m so and so and so. We' ; ll be over to get you. Okay, you want me to come down? No, we' ; ll be there to get you. But I would have gotten everything ready, my letters dictated to Lola and Julia, and people would be knowing I' ; m going into jail. James Armstrong went to jail with me almost, quite a few times I was arrested. I asked him sometime, I said, Well, James, what you go to jail for? Well, just to be with you. Well, I said, if there' ; d been any pushing you' ; d would have probably made it democratic, but nonviolently. But I' ; d always have somebody to know that I got to jail. And herein again we must give God the credit. He looks out for us. And although policemen at this time could beat Negroes and run them off, they had determination to follow. The policemen knew, you know. And there was only one time that I was arrested, I will say this to you, that I felt as if they were trying to do me in or something. They went way somewhere, and I' ; m back in the van, couldn' ; t see, and it' ; s night too. HUNTLEY: Is this in a paddy wagon? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. And they might have been picking up some people in those areas I guess or something. And it was rough, and not like on the street, you know. HUNTLEY: Are you the only one in the thing? SHUTTLESWORTH: I believe, I' ; m trying to think, I believe I was. But those people who guarded my house and who guarded around the Movement when we were, were always, they had sense enough to do it in a way that police couldn' ; t, if the police stopped and said, where you going, go back, others would -- it was a thing. And speaking of the loyalty and the discipline those men had. You must remember when the buses, and I realize I' ; m bringing in something here later, when the buses were burned in Anniston, I was getting ready to go up there because nobody was getting those people out from the Klan. And my men said to me, I said, men, we' ; re going to take three cars. And I always say you can' ; t carry a toothpick, scratch yourself and think somebody else did it, don' ; t get angry. You have to go and, we have to go up and get them. So, I' ; m getting in my, they said, you don' ; t need to go. I said, No, no, no, I wouldn' ; t ask you to do what I don' ; t do. They said, No, you have to stay here and lead us, we' ; ll go. This is loyalty. They went into the Klan, near Anniston, and got those people. So, we can' ; t think of events and situations in this world unknown to the eye of God or even under only his direction. I think just like he controls Nature, he really has things and do with our affairs, he doesn' ; t make us robots, he does not take our thoughts and direct, he allows us a freedom within, but I think there is a certain direction that life is going to go in, regardless of us. HUNTLEY: In either ' ; 57 or ' ; 58 there was a young man that was taken out into the woods and castrated. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes, Judge Aaron. HUNTLEY: Did you know him? SHUTTLESWORTH: I didn' ; t know him personally, but the Klansmen were concerned that the police had not put me out of business. They had missed me in the bombing, they had missed me in the mob, and I kept going, I was pursuing the city and all this kind of stuff. And the man testified in that trial that they were just mad and they wanted to find some Negro, said they were, they would have liked to got me I understand. Course I' ; m thankful that God didn' ; t let me go that route. He wanted me to go another route. But they just caught this Negro and castrated him. And really, he would have bled to death had they not put the turpentine there for pain, they called it giving him pain and it cauterized the wound. Here again the grace of God is. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the Terminal Station incident. SHUTTLESWORTH: Now this was in nineteen, what was it? HUNTLEY: This was in nineteen-fifty-seven also. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. Now, there were one or two incidents, see, I have a picture of President Harry Truman coming to Terminal Station, and it had to be before that incident or it might be afterwards, I' ; m not sure, ' ; cause Lamar Weaver knew Mr. Truman was coming into the city -- it might have been after that incident -- and he arranged, he wanted me to meet Mr. Truman and I met him there at the station. HUNTLEY: At the station? SHUTTLESWORTH: I thought it was courageous for the president of the United States to come here knowing, and stand up, and I have the pictures, you have it. HUNTLEY: Okay, okay. SHUTTLESWORTH: The Terminal Station incident came as a result of this dubious ruling, instrastate versus interstate. Other words, you don' ; t have to move if you' ; re going across state lines, but you have to segregate if you' ; re going within a state, intra, which to me was sick, silly. In fact I thought segregation was wrong anyhow, see, so that it' ; s all one thing to me, and I, I don' ; t know why I asked my wife to do it, because anybody at this time, I could almost ask anybody to volunteer for things. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: But I always had the feeling, Dr. Huntley, that the person who leads, really, should affect, not only try to shape opinion and shape direction, but that he has a way of , he should give himself to what he asks others to do. And it' ; s no different, I' ; m not making any aspersion on anybody else, that' ; s just the way I felt. HUNTLEY: You' ; re saying that you would not ask anyone else to do anything that you wouldn' ; t do yourself. SHUTTLESWORTH: Right, right. So, I asked my wife, I said, we are going down to challenge this. And really, she never questioned, I said, in the morning. So, I always sent police notice and telegram that they should send a release to the state. I had to request protection because I always felt that the police ought to be sued, that you' ; d be in position at least to have them in court if they didn' ; t give you protection once you have done it. So, then I had to give it time, so the Klan would know also. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And that was another morning that death could have taken place except that it wasn' ; t God' ; s will. So, we went, I got in, I had a suitcase, and you have that picture also in your file, and I had my wife with me. And I believe Commissioner Leadgood was in at this time. If Bull had been in there I probably would have gotten killed, being honest with you, because the police probably would have taken a different tack, I don' ; t know. And I don' ; t want to say bad things about Mr. Connor -- his record is bad enough without my making it worse. But we went straight up to the door, the white station, where you can go back to the right, oh, twenty or thirty or forty feet, and go in, between the terminals, between the white and the Negro entrance. And so, we walked up to the front door, and these people had filled that -- it was a whole lot of people as far as I could see of them, maybe I couldn' ; t see although I was surprised that that many were in there, but they were at those doors, I couldn' ; t have pushed in there had I wanted to. So, I walk up to the doors, and you have that picture, and this little fellow with a crew cut, like a German crew cut, he stood there and he said, Shuttlesworth, we don' ; t want you in here. I said, I don' ; t think it' ; s up to you to tell me that I can' ; t come in. And I was saying, we were saying, didn' ; t say that much, and they were getting ready, and I could hear them in the background getting ready to push and make a push through the door, see, and while I was talking to him I was listening at him. Then I had my eye on the right as the policemen came, they saw they couldn' ; t get in anyway, unless they had come in and started to battering folks. So, they knew that they could go in this door and come up behind and put them out. So, we were hesitant, my wife and I. So, when I saw the policemen go in, I just took her hand and left this young man, and go right on, went right on behind the police and that' ; s how we got in in the first place, we never would have gotten into the station. HUNTLEY: Oh, is that right? SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, no, no way. HUNTLEY: The mob was already there. SHUTTLESWORTH: The mob was inside. HUNTLEY: Oh, they were inside. SHUTTLESWORTH: They were inside the Terminal Station, we walked up to the white entrance. HUNTLEY: So, they were like barricading the white entrance to keep you out. SHUTTLESWORTH: Absolutely, absolutely. You know I wasn' ; t gone go to the Negro, Colored entrance to test it. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And so, , the policemen, when they came up, they came up to where we were but they didn' ; t say anything to the man nor to me. And I guess their strategy was to get in behind them, and I noticed in the back of the crowd they had started pushing toward the front. And I took my wife' ; s arm and run right behind the policemen and run inside, because my purpose was to sit in the station. (Laughing.) That' ; s the victory. To actually sit in the white room in the station. HUNTLEY: Did you drive there that morning or did someone bring you? SHUTTLESWORTH: I either drove or was carried, I can' ; t be sure. HUNTLEY: ' ; Cause I was thinking if you had driven and the mob had seen you, they probably would have attacked you at your car. SHUTTLESWORTH: I might have driven and parked my car somewhere else. It wasn' ; t that I was afraid to drive. And then I' ; m not too sure that I was organized, because I hadn' ; t organized anybody too much, strange thing, normally I had always been, but I didn' ; t have anybody qued up to support me in this, just me and my wife. As I think of it, that' ; s about one of the most indefensible situations I sort of-- HUNTLEY: How did Lamar Weaver get-- SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, I' ; m fixing to tell you. So, I bought an instrastate ticket and interstate, intra- for her and inter- for me, I think it was. And we had already pre-purchased the tickets. Willie Williams was at this university over here the other evening, talking with Constance Motley, we talked about that, she was involved, and he was saying one of us had this type ticket and one had the other. Willie Williams was a young lawyer then. And so, , as we went in, the policemen busied themselves on getting them out, pushing them out, see, ' ; cause didn' ; t any of them have any tickets anyway (laughing), so I sat, I wouldn' ; t be right at the door but there were seats, most of the seats were empty, they were just ganged up at the door. So, I went in the middle of the station, I wasn' ; t gone sit right at the door, either. It' ; s amazing how you can get yourself so, in a position so indefensible. And so, I was there, and then, the policemen, as they were getting them out, one man, one policeman came to me and said, Do you have a ticket? See, he was gone arrest me if I didn' ; t have a ticket. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: Which I had too much sense to go in there without a ticket. I said, Officer, you know I have sense enough to have a ticket, so I pulled my ticket out, he didn' ; t say any more. I said, You know I have sense enough not to come in this station without a ticket. So, he didn' ; t say anything else. And it wasn' ; t, oh-- so I sat there, and he went on. And it was I guess less than five minutes at the most that Lamar Weaver came in through that same door and came to sit down with us. You' ; ve got to admire the man' ; s courage, whether he was a fool or not, people have to judge. And the policeman came in, and here' ; s a white man, you know, sitting with a Negro anyhow, so that sort of nettled him I guess, but he went ' ; bout the legal way: Where your ticket? He didn' ; t have one. HUNTLEY: Mmm, okay. SHUTTLESWORTH: He didn' ; t have one so they had to put him out, so they him out, right out the same door. Into the mob. And that mob set on him, and they were pummeling him, and he had a canvas-top Cadillac, as I recall. I didn' ; t see this, see, I don' ; t want to give myself credit for things I didn' ; t see. But tell me they rocked his car and almost tore the canvas off, and he barely got away with his life. HUNTLEY: And then the police arrested him. SHUTTLESWORTH: Police arrested him for running over a red light and the judge gave him a ten-dollar ticket. This was Birmingham in those days. HUNTLEY: Right, right. You know, in 1959, after you had gone through all of this, what you' ; re doing is developing the nonviolent protest movement. In 1959, CBS, I believe, did a documentary on Malcolm X that was shown nationwide. I guess this was really the first time that the Nation of Islam is introduced nationally. How did that impact upon the Civil Rights, the traditional Civil Rights Movement? SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, we didn' ; t have too much liaison with the Malcolm X people. I think people admire anybody who protests segregation. And of course, Malcolm X and others did protest a lot. They didn' ; t do a lot of suffering like we did against it. And I never, I never got in a contest with them. I never did want to get into a situation where the System would have Blacks fighting each other. And you know, Dr. King said, and I believe, that really a man ought to be free. And if he goes after his freedom different from others, even in a violent way, Dr. King thought it was better for a man to be violent trying to get free than to be totally passive and enslaved. The only thing he said was that you ought to be willing to take the consequences for your actions. That is what' ; s bothering people today, we want to act without being responsible. HUNTLEY: Nineteen-sixty is the year of the sit-ins, and Bull Connor made the statement that there are sit-ins going on all around the world. SHUTTLESWORTH: He assured the people of Birmingham that there would not be sit-ins. But you know it' ; s not been accurately written. I had to be in High Point, North Carolina, the same day of the sit-ins. It was in that area, High Point, Greensboro. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: B. Elton Cox was a small fellow then, he' ; s heavy now, he' ; s up in some place Illinois, above Chicago, I saw him here about nine months ago. But he had invited me to come up to speak, just like people do now, and the sit-ins started there. And so, when he picked me up at the airport, he said, Come on, I want you to go in with me (?). Before I would speak that night, this was in the afternoon, I got there, we went by the lunch counters in Greensboro and another place there close. And we went by and sat in with the students. That' ; s not really basically written, history. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. SHUTTLESWORTH: But I was there when it started, and I was the one who called back to SCLC' ; s office, see, Ella Baker was our executive secretary then. And I said to her, Tell Dr. King this is a new departure and that we have to support these students. HUNTLEY: So, that' ; s the beginning of SNCC. SHUTTLESWORTH: That' ; s the beginning of, yeah, SNCC came out of that. HUNTLEY: Mm-hmm. SHUTTLESWORTH: But I was in it then and I called back, so SCLC was knowledgeable that the sit-ins were going on. But I spoke that night in High Point and commended them and said that we' ; d be on. So, Bull Connor then comes up. Poor Bull. It' ; s amazing how you can put a little man in a big place, and he makes the place either small or terrible. HUNTLEY: Mm-hmm. SHUTTLESWORTH: And leadership is what this country needs, in all time and in every place. At any rate, he assured the citizens of Birmingham that there would not be sit-ins in Birmingham, Alabama. And of course, I never thought, that' ; s another thing, we never intended to have massive sit-ins in Birmingham. First of all, we didn' ; t have the money. We didn' ; t have the national backing to do it, but I know Mr. Connor could not prevent Negroes from sitting in, so I just made a statement that it is an insult to the Negro people for Mr. Connor to say that he can prevent us from sitting in if we want to sit in. There will be sit-ins. Well, that' ; s a challenge you see. And I had to mount the challenge, the idea' ; s challenge, anyway. ' ; Cause you cannot submit to segregation. Now how it was gone be done I did not say. Most people expected that you' ; ve got to have massive sit-ins and if you want me to go on and explain how it was done-- HUNTLEY: Yes, I would. SHUTTLESWORTH: Okay. I knew that in Birmingham, Alabama, if we were going to have sit-ins it had to be--We chose the five stores -- Pizitz, Loveman' ; s, Newberry' ; s, I forget -- HUNTLEY: Britt' ; s. SHUTTLESWORTH: Britt' ; s, for five of them. And I said to them, now, we' ; ll have cars that take you not to the door, but within forty-fifty feet and to the sidewalk. And you must be aware of the policemen, and it was gone be two, they' ; d have books, you know. And we gave them money to buy, they had to buy something and if they went into court and didn' ; t buy anything, Earl McBee, the city solicitor (?), they had begun attacking ' ; bout, yeah, you went in there to do this, didn' ; t you, and they' ; d say, yeah, you went in there to sit in, so, and we' ; d say, no, we bought something. So, we gave them money, and then I set the time. I said, we identified where each lunch counter was in each store, and they had to, at a certain time, they would go in only one store, away from the counter, so they wouldn' ; t take the eye of the police, and within three minutes they would be on the floor where the counters were but not near the counters. Before this time though they would buy a handkerchief or something, anything. And 11:30 was the deadline hour, and they were to be within twenty feet of the counter by 11:29, doing something not even looking at the counter. But at 11:30 sharp they would make it to the counter and sit in, not together but among the whites. Now this shows you how prepared Bull was. At 11:35 they were already in jail. HUNTLEY: Is that right! SHUTTLESWORTH: They would sit at 11:30 sharp. At 11:35 they were already in the jail. And of course, I never sat in, as you know. Charles Billups and I were indicted each, we got, what, five convictions out of the city and so we never sat in. HUNTLEY: Was it Charles Billups that, Hendricks, I believe it was a couple of Hendricks brothers that actually went out to the airport to sit in at the Dobbs House, I believe it was called at that time. And they paid for, I think he told me he had kept the sandwich (laughs). SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, and you know, now that was something that wasn' ; t necessary ___?___ but it' ; s showing that the people had the spirit, see. I wasn' ; t concerned about any more sit-ins, but they knew that my spirit was, we attack segregation everywhere. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: See, so this was on their own and really, I thought it was a beautiful thing. HUNTLEY: Sixty-one was the year of the Freedom Rides. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. HUNTLEY: And this is the situation in Anniston. It appeared that, and I believe you said that it appeared that any time anything is happening in Civil Rights in that era, look like Birmingham, Alabama, was sort of focal point. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. Well, yeah, you know, first one on the roll call of states, first, at that time, in instances of tragic consequences and foolishness and stupidity. And the legislators and the governor had no hesitation calling anything during Civil Rights, and stirring up the people, so that naturally this was where, where it was going to be (?). There is a Scripture in the Bible that says, Light shines in the darkness and the darkness can' ; t stop it. I believe in that and that' ; s why, in my being here, and that' ; s another thing, now the sit-ins were started, begun in New York. I didn' ; t have anything to do with it. When I knew anything, it was being announced. And they charted the route through Alabama, Mississippi. HUNTLEY: You mean the Freedom Rides. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, I mean the Freedom Rides, that' ; s it. HUNTLEY: From D.C., wasn' ; t it? Didn' ; t they come down from D.C.? SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, see, it was planned in New York and D.C. but it started in D.C. And I wasn' ; t in on the planning. HUNTLEY: Right. So, when did you find out that they were headed to Alabama? Did you not find out about that until the incident in Anniston, or were you forewarned? SHUTTLESWORTH: I knew that they were going to come into Georgia, and then to Birmingham. And I' ; m trying to see how did I have the communication, a lot of things escape me. I might have had some communication from someone in Atlanta. And I believe someone in New York, I don' ; t even know who it was. You must remember, however, that in these times, whenever my long-distance calls, my phone rings, it' ; s automatically heard in the police station, so when I picked up my phone many times, I could hear police giving signals out, and this and that. And one time there was a four-way hook-up, the police, the hospital, the ambulance service and my, and you wouldn' ; t believe it, but there were times when my phone would just keep ringing at night, I' ; d take it up off the hook and it would ring off the hook, that had to be from downtown. So, that' ; s a long-- this Freedom Ride, because it got hung up here. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And the federal government got in, this is, you' ; re in a terrific point now, because we had always wanted to involve the federal government in seeing to it that the local people, local police, protected us. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: So, the Freedom Rides were really, basically, the beginning of the actual involvement of it. And if you had, we had longed for Kennedy' ; s telephone call to me and others after we got started, let' ; s get started talking about it. So, they came in and got hung up in Anniston. James Peck and others were beaten up, that was a Sunday. As I recall it was happening near one o' ; clock or twelve-something, because I was dismissing service when somebody came up and said there' ; s a young Black man out there bloody. So, I went outside, out in front, and he was bloody. By the time I talked to him here come some more. And then here comes this white man with his skull burst open. The first time I saw a human skull it was James Peck. They had hit him with an iron pipe and just burst his flesh. HUNTLEY: Had someone brought them out to your church? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, well, where else could they go? They were already told that they could get in touch with me, see. HUNTLEY: Okay. SHUTTLESWORTH: That was why they came to my place, couldn' ; t go any place else. And you know there' ; s some instances here that people don' ; t know about. They intended to turn Peck over to the Klan. I' ; ll tell you about that I hope, hope to tell you about that. So, Peck came. So, we knew we had to get him to the hospital. And I would imagine that, let' ; s say, the latest would have been one or one-thirty. We went into my house and did the best we could then we had to send him to the hospital, and he had, I think they took over fifty-two stitches in his forehead, his head, all, he was really beaten up. Howard K. Smith described it in that CBS film. So, we sent Peck to the emergency of Hillman, Jefferson, whatever it was called then. And we said to him, Now you can' ; t try to get no cab or nothing to come back, you wait till they get finished with you then you call us. I was going to send one or men back at him, ' ; cause I had cars, people guarded my house anyway and at a time like this I had any number of people that was available for anything. And then I had all these people, the doctor and his wife from Detroit, all of them integrated at my house. Bull called out there and said, You got whites and niggers out there. I said it' ; s my business, what you gone do about it? Hotels wouldn' ; t take ' ; em. At any rate, so, from that early afternoon until that night, at least past nine o' ; clock, James Peck was over at University Hospital. And I have no doubt they intended to turn him over to the Klan. HUNTLEY: You think the hospital intended to turn him--? SHUTTLESWORTH: The policemen, the policemen. HUNTLEY: Okay. SHUTTLESWORTH: And I' ; ll tell you how that developed. And there were a lot of things went on that day, there was communication, I was called from Detroit and New York, and of course, when they called me, Bull Connor and everybody heard it. But I had to be, you know, on the scene, but they were in my house, and we made sure there wasn' ; t nobody going to, no Klansman or anybody else, involve these people. I don' ; t know whether it was, what, twelve, thirteen, or fourteen of them. Young people, white and Black. So-- HUNTLEY: Did they stay at your house? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. HUNTLEY: Were all of them there or did they stay at other people' ; s homes as well? SHUTTLESWORTH: At mine. HUNTLEY: Just at your house. SHUTTLESWORTH: I don' ; t remember anybody taking them ' ; cause we' ; d have had danger, you know. HUNTLEY: You wanted it to be centrally located so everybody would be-- SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now if it was, but I had people if I had needed to put them somewhere. But I don' ; t recall now anybody taking them. If it would have been, it would have been some trusted person, like Colonel Johnson or somebody to come there and take them. HUNTLEY: But you were talking about Peck. SHUTTLESWORTH: Peck is the main focus right at the moment. So, we gave him a dime. So, he called. And almost as if it was something speaking to me, say, why don' ; t you go? Normally I would have sent two men in the car with him. And then we had always two or three other cars following that one, far off, to be sure they, you know, and I stayed home to find out what happened, I would have stayed home to find out what happened. But tonight, something said to me, You go. And if I hadn' ; t I' ; m sure Peck would' ; ve been turned over to the Klan. So, I said to him, now, when he called I said, Now, we gone come up and drive under the shed and you out and get in the back, we gone open the door and just right on out and get in and then we gone pull off. So, there were several cars, and like, you had driven your car and parked, but you may get in another, somebody else' ; s car and drive. So, I was in the car with someone who was in another person' ; s car. And we drove, so when we pulled in we noticed a three-wheeled policeman sitting right at the door, one down the street, two or three police cars space, so we pulled in and he came out and got in, in the back seat. So, I' ; m sitting in the passenger' ; s side and this other man in the back. Now the other cars were following inconspicuously to see what happened, if anything had happened at the hospital or anywhere else, we would have known it. And so, we came out Avenue F, 6th Avenue, and come up to the one way coming across, which was 21st, isn' ; t it? HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. SHUTTLESWORTH: When we pulled off, the three-wheeler pulled off, right behind us, and when we got into the street good the police car that was sitting down the street pulled off and was another three-wheeler in front of us and when we passed them, they got behind us. And so, we up from, what is that, twentieth street to twenty-second. And by the time we got to twenty-second street, there were at least two police cars behind, but the three-wheelers were up with us. And they made sure that we got up on the viaduct where we couldn' ; t turn off, couldn' ; t run or nothing. And by time we got not to the mid-point but up far enough so that we couldn' ; t get off any place, to maybe a third of the way, this three-wheeler comes up to this fellow, to the driver' ; s side, Pull over! Incidentally when we pulled off from the hospital I said, Now don' ; t go over ten miles an hour, we' ; re not gone have a speeding ticket or anything else. So, the policeman said, What' ; s your name?, no, he said, Where you going, boy?, or something like that. He said, I' ; m going back over the North Birmingham. He said, What' ; s your name? Told him his name. Said, Let me see your driver' ; s license. Where your car registration? So, he told him he was in another fellow' ; s car. Oh, a stolen car! I didn' ; t say anything until he said that ' ; cause I knew where he was going. And so, he said, Oh, we got a stolen car here. I said, Officer, I' ; m sure you know that this man would not come over here in a stolen car. I said, And I' ; m sure you know that everybody' ; s aware of what' ; s going on in this city and I' ; m sure that you' ; re not going to arrest anybody here for a stolen car tonight. Said, What the hell you got to do with it? I said I' ; ve got everything to do with it. Well, who the hell are you? I said, I' ; m Reverend F. L Shuttlesworth and I' ; m sure you know the name. Won' ; t be no stuff tonight. Said, What did you say your name is? I said, F. L. Shuttlesworth and you know it well. He said, So-and-so, Shuttlesworth, and you could hear them talking. He said, So-and-so, Shuttlesworth, he said, Aw, hell, let ' ; em go. I' ; m hearing this, they would have detained them. So, we went on and got safely to the house. And I thank God always that I was there that night ' ; cause it would have been a calamity, another black mark on Birmingham. But went there and then we were in the house all the next day. Well now the government, you see, at this time we had begun pressing from New York and all around, the government to see to it that the people were protected. That people traveling the interstate, intra-state and all this, would be actually protected by the police department. So, then the White House gets involved in it. Robert Kennedy was President Kennedy' ; s point man, you know, I, we were in Robert Kennedy' ; s office when Meredith was put in in Mississippi. HUNTLEY: Oh, you were? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, and I' ; ve been there any number of times, but at this time, he called to ask, what could we do? I said, Well, these people are here, and they' ; ve got to get off, and you can assist us in seeing to it that we are protected and so forth and so on, very polite. And they had already called the police, Bull Connor, __?___, and the governor also. So, I think we sat in the station and they were trying to go out, and the white, the bus drivers refused to do, so we stayed in the station all night, and I wish the public could hear the conversation between Robert Kennedy and me, so Kennedy calls me at home, and I went down to the bus station, and said, Well, what can I do? I said, Well, you can get, you can see if you can get the buses rolling. He said, Well, white driver won' ; t drive them? Well, tell them to get a Negro. (Laughs) I said, Well, you know they ain' ; t gone hire no Negro here. And he was telling me first of all, could I negotiate with the bus? I said, I don' ; t hire buses, I' ; m not into that, y' ; all see to these people. Then he said, Well, tell them that if the white drivers won' ; t drive, I' ; ll put a Negro driver on and the Air Force jet will be there within the hour. Then the whites decided they were gone drive, see? And of course there were thousands of people around that bus station. It' ; s amazing something didn' ; t happen. HUNTLEY: Was this day or night? SHUTTLESWORTH: We went (?) in the day, but you know we stayed all night, had to stay all night, we ate everything out of the, and you know it' ; s an amazing thing, you know I walked out and among those Klansmen just like walking in this place, and didn' ; t fear, and they knew who I was. But I went, and if I go out to do something, I went home, couple of times, came back. HUNTLEY: But every time a bus driver came and he found out what was happening, he would not drive. SHUTTLESWORTH: Right. So, I told Mr. Kennedy, I wasn' ; t negotiating with no bus drivers, I don' ; t hire drivers, very courteous, very pointed, though. And every time he called, Bull and me get cursed out, but he would tell us, now, you have to do your job and we do ours. You know we don' ; t want to put marshalls in there, but we can federalize the troops if we have to, you know, all that, it' ; s amazing the use of power. But knowing how to use it is what' ; s important. And naturally the local officials didn' ; t want to be superseded, so they had to give appearance as if they would reluctantly go along just so far, but here is the point I want you to get to. Robert Kennedy was so happy when finally, the bus drivers agreed to drive, so he calls me back, he said, Rev. Shuttlesworth, he said I understand the driver' ; s gonna drive, yes, say now, he said, do you have to go through Mississippi? I said, yeah, he said, Oh God, Reverend, said, the Lord ain' ; t been to Mississippi in a long time. I said, Well, that' ; s why we want to go, Mr. Kennedy, so that we can get the Lord in Mississippi. (Laughter) He said, My God, well, can' ; t you go to New Orleans? I said, Mr. Kennedy, I didn' ; t set the route. I said, the route was set in Washington and New York, you know about this. He said, I' ; ll tell you what, I' ; m gonna make arrangements for, I' ; m gonna call the governor of New Orleans, of Louisiana, he was suggesting that we go to Louisiana. I said, Mr. Kennedy, didn' ; t you say that the government can' ; t tell people in a free country where to go? Said, these people are going to Mississippi. And that' ; s when he asked me, he said, Are you going with them? I said, Mr. Kennedy, I don' ; t ask people to do what I don' ; t do. He said, Oh my God, I hadn' ; t thought about that. And then, you know, I was arrested. I' ; m sure that he made up his mind that if I got killed it would have been tragic. HUNTLEY: So, you think that they had you arrested? SHUTTLESWORTH: I think Bobby Kennedy made a deal with Chief Jamie Moore to arrest me, ' ; cause you know when the buses did run, I' ; m a little ahead of myself, you see, the whites, you must remember now, don' ; t get it confused. The original group didn' ; t ride the buses, they had to go back to my house, and they tried to get off on a plane, remember, they flew on a plane. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right, some students came in. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, and here again is a whole, I told you, this is a long thing. So, I get a call when they flew off, the plane flying off, and the Klan clapping (claps) ' ; cause they couldn' ; t get out on a bus. I get a call, and I' ; m supposed to go out of town to speak somewhere, Rev. Shuttlesworth, this is Diane Nash Bevel, students at Nashville. I said, How are you? She said, Well, the students have decided to take up the bus ride. I said, Young lady, you realize that somebody could get killed here? Do you know what has happened? She said, Yes, we know it, and we don' ; t think that violence is supposed to stop this. I was so glad and yet I was shaking in my boots that some more people were going to come in and really get messed up. I said, Well, do y' ; all have to, she said, oh, yes, we have voted to come, and they are on their way. I said, Well, we have to, I said, I' ; m supposed to go out of the city, but I have to be here, I can' ; t let y' ; all come in here and nobody knows. She said, that' ; s why we contact you, to let you know we' ; re coming. She said, the group will be coming tonight. Well, Bull took the first people back, you know, and put them out two o' ; clock in the morning at the Nashville line. So, she calls me back, I said, Well, we have to, and I knew that I was being heard, but sometimes when they' ; re busy doing other things, I said, Well, let' ; s develop this thing, you send your governor and your police commissioner exactly when they are coming, and then you call me and say, The chickens are on their way, some will be roosters, that means men, pullets, that' ; ll be young women, hens, old women, dominic, mixed race, mixed. See, you tell me, then I' ; ll call my police commissioner and tell them what time y' ; all are supposed to get here. So, by the time Bull thought he had freed himself, the group was in here, she said, The chickens are on their way, some are rednecks, and dominics (laughs), it was beautiful, the Lord was with us. And so, they got in, and we were hung up there at the bus station. Now, I was in and out because I was going to be sure, and this is where Robert Kennedy called me in, What can we do? Whites won' ; t drive. Well, can you talk with them? I said, I' ; m not a negotiator. When I told them that Kennedy say he' ; d have a Black driver in the Air Force jet within the hour, then it was decided that they were going to drive. Meanwhile President Kennedy had decided to send his special, what do you call it, assistant, John Seigenthaler, who was beaten up in Montgomery, remember. HUNTLEY: Okay. SHUTTLESWORTH: And so, , ' ; cause if I had been in it, I' ; m sure now I would have been killed because, and I thanked John Seigenthaler, we were speaking at University of Northern Kentucky, and I said, You got beaten up for me, so I appreciate that. I said, a white man, I said the thing' ; s gone get better when white men are beaten up in Negroes' ; places, just put it like that, but back to the thing here. So, they finally got everything ready to go. Well now, I always had sense enough to get my ticket. So, I' ; m getting, buses finally getting ready to go, and I' ; m making sure everybody is ready, you know. And it' ; s amazing, so many Klansmen around the bus station but didn' ; t nobody bother me. And so, I decided when the buses getting to roll, I went to get up on the, I went to step up on the bus and Chief Jamie Moore called me by name, Freddie Lee? Are you going to ride the bus? (laughing) I said, Of course I' ; m going to ride. I said, and I flagged my ticket into him, I said, I' ; ve got my ticket and I' ; m going to ride and you can' ; t stop me. He said, I' ; m going to give you a lawful order to, what did he say, to not ride the bus or something like that, and if you don' ; t I' ; m going to arrest you for refusing to obey a lawful order of a police. I said you can' ; t give me no lawful order not to ride and I' ; ve got a ticket to ride and the right to ride. So, I' ; m gone ignore him, I' ; m gone step up and I got to I think the middle step and he grabbed me right in my collar, just gently pulled me, didn' ; t snatch, gently pulled me down, and took me to jail, said, I' ; m arresting you for refusal to obey an order. And I' ; m sure that, as I look at it now, that Kennedy had decided I shouldn' ; t get killed, because he knew I was going to ride. I said I don' ; t ask other people to do what I don' ; t do. He said, You must go? I said, I must go. Well, you know, they rode into Montgomery and it was a fiasco, beaten up, boy' ; s teeth knocked out and it was just terrible. Well, I' ; m in jail, see. HUNTLEY: You' ; re safe in jail. SHUTTLESWORTH: No, but I wasn' ; t safe. I' ; m trying to get out. And immediately I was bonded out but the buses had already gotten to Montgomery. So, I got in my car and the first time that I had been photographed without my mustache -- I' ; d had a mustache since I was fourteen -- was I was rushing, you know, to get ready to go to Montgomery that night. And I had whacked too much off and I just whacked it all off, made my lips look like it swoll. But I got in the car and I flew. They could have arrested me for flying, but I got down there at night and it was a night of nights. The federal marshals were there, the Klan, they were really upset. And we were in Ralph Abernathy' ; s church, the First Baptist Church, and I don' ; t recall any incidents in my getting in, but I got -- and it might have been that some men drove me down, they would drive me anywhere, or I might have driven myself, I don' ; t remember right at the moment -- but I got out and went into the church and tear gas smells, first time I ever smelled tear gas. HUNTLEY: Tear gas smell in the church? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, the marshals had to use tear gas on them Klansmen on the outside. And so, we were there that night. And we were talking, Martin and Ralph were glad that I got there because they were a little bit unsure about what had happened, and then the governor had declared limited marshal law. See, Kennedy had forced him to do something, else he would have federalized the guard. So, they allowed Patterson -- was Patterson in then or Wallace? -- whoever was in. HUNTLEY: Wallace was in. SHUTTLESWORTH: Wallace was in then. Limited marshal rule, I believe it was. So, Martin made that announcement, it was good, you know, limited marshal rule, we thought it meant troops, and we were disappointed when we found out it wouldn' ; t mean federal troops. It was a national (?), limited. So, then, it' ; s written somewhere, and I guess I' ; ll say this, I never did have fear. It came that James Farmer was at the airport and he had to come in. HUNTLEY: CORE. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. And so, I volunteered to go out and get him, forget all those Klansmen out there and how I got in. (Laughs) So, I went and got him, went to the airport, and when I came back they had really gotten ferocious, and it was tear gas all on the outside and marshals were being hit and all this kind of stuff, and James Farmer said something about he thought I was the bravest, most courageous man, and you know, when we got to where we had to go in, I said, Get back, folk, coming through! And they just fell back like, I was shocked myself. HUNTLEY: Is that right? SHUTTLESWORTH: Went right on through and went up into the church. Then the adjutant general took over and told us all that we had to stay there, and talked very nice, but he said, I insist on it. And it was in that time that we stayed in Montgomery so that wherever we went, let' ; s see, were we at Martin' ; s house or Ralph' ; s house, whichever, and wherever we would go the Guard would take us, we had deliberately made places to go and ride with the National Guard, and I told Martin and Ralph I said, Now we' ; re getting some of our own tax money. They took us everywhere we wanted to go. So, we, I think it was for a day or two we were in that situation. And then it came time for the buses to go to Mississippi. And I had already promised, and Kennedy knows now that I am back in Montgomery, also Martin and Ralph and all of us were supposed to ride. I guess, I don' ; t know whether Martin was going to ride or not, I really don' ; t know. But I was, course I' ; m in Montgomery, and I went there to ride, to prevent it being Birmingham. And so, we' ; re down, we' ; re in the white waiting room at the bus station, sat down at the lunch counter, and of course I led the integration because I was going to make sure, I said, well, we' ; re here and we must integrate! (Laughs) So, we were in the white, Ralph didn' ; t want to go, Martin said, well, you know we got to go ' ; cause if he gets arrested, I said, that' ; s right, let' ; s go. So, we' ; re in the white waiting room and white restroom and everything, integrated it totally. And I didn' ; t, I felt something happening, I didn' ; t know what, but, so when the buses came and people began to load up, the folk, then we were arrested, again, in Montgomery, see. Wyatt T. Walker, I' ; m trying to see whether Martin and Ralph were there, I' ; m pretty sure they were, I was, and several others of us who were going to go on the bus, so they arrested us. HUNTLEY: They arrested you before you could get on the bus. SHUTTLESWORTH: Before I could get on the bus. And then the others rode the bus into Mississippi, you know they let the people down there arrest them. (Laughs) HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. SHUTTLESWORTH: It' ; s an amazing thing. And so, we were in the Montgomery jail. And naturally I' ; m the actionist, and Wyatt T. Walker, also. See, one of the -- you must remember, and I should say this -- one of the reasons for the success of the movement in Birmingham and elsewhere was I' ; m an actionist and so was Wyatt T. Walker. Wyatt is a dramatist, you know, we were right together. And what we felt, basically, Martin had to go, ' ; cause Birmingham was under my-- HUNTLEY: You all usually agreed on-- SHUTTLESWORTH: Wyatt and I were right together on strategy and movement. In fact, we made most of it. And so, we were in jail. So, we decided in jail we were going to fast and not eat. Wyatt said, Well, we ought to take a little coffee for liquid' ; s sake. I said, No, no liquid. (Laughter) And then that night -- we didn' ; t stay there long -- that night that we refused it, they wouldn' ; t give us blankets or something and we had the sheriff to come down and talk with us, ' ; cause we wadn' ; t gone eat and wadn' ; t gone shave or something, we were just, it was, we had to embarrass the system. It was not that we were trying to make anybody look bad. And, I' ; m trying to think, that' ; s about the highlights, except for Ralph' ; s snoring, Ralph was the world' ; s greatest snorer. Ralph was in, we were in jail here in Birmingham, but in Montgomery was, as I recall, Ralph was in the cell right above me, and he snored and hit those metal walls and reverberate through that, and I always say that Ralph was the world' ; s greatest snorer. But we had camaraderie, we had fellowship, we knew we were going, we knew we were winning. But the point here is that the government directly involved itself in the protection of citizens in the performance of carrying out of their own privileges. And that was the high mark for us. Of course, in Mississippi, I thought that it was bad that they were turned over to the officials there and it didn' ; t move, but you know, God had his own reasons. People came into Mississippi, and schools, and all this stuff, and Mississippi has more Black people now in office than Alabama, doesn' ; t it? HUNTLEY: That' ; s right, it does. SHUTTLESWORTH: So, you see, it' ; s God moving in history. HUNTLEY: Sixty-two was the year of the selective buying campaign and there was a relationship that seemingly developed between the Movement and Miles College students. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you talk about that? SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, the Movement, my position was, we had to be supportive of any movement, whether they were " ; us" ; or not, because, really, in the segregation struggle, all of " ; us" ; is " ; us" ; , all of " ; us" ; are " ; us" ; , you know. And I thought it was nice for the students, they wanted some interdependency, and so we were supportive, and they knew also that if they didn' ; t have the backing of the Movement, if they got in trouble, they wouldn' ; t-- We had cooperation and I was really glad to see. HUNTLEY: Was there, also at a point in ' ; 62, the students had started doing some door-to-door solicitations. SHUTTLESWORTH: There were interspersions, it' ; s difficult sometimes for me as I haven' ; t just taken time and jotted these things down, but we were always generally supportive of anything any group did, including, when we first started, we' ; re ahead of this now but remember, the preachers wouldn' ; t go, and they organized the Betterment Association? HUNTLEY: Right, right. SHUTTLESWORTH: It' ; s interesting -- I should say this because people should know -- at one time Ware had said, in the conference -- they wouldn' ; t endorse a petition for Negro policemen -- and that' ; s the time when he said, Well, brethren -- and people are talking up for this -- so he said, well, don' ; t say nothing good about it, don' ; t say nothing bad about it and it' ; ll be gone in two weeks like everything else these little Negroes running around here trying to do. Well, I didn' ; t take no offense. So, they organized the Betterment Association with E. W. Williams of Fairfield. Well, I took the position, as I said to our Board, that we should be supportive, and we are glad that the preachers are organized. Although we were preaching we are not gone crusade. They were trying to show that they were adequate to speak words for the moment, but that era called for actions and they were not actionists. So, I didn' ; t try to dominate their meeting, but Rev. Gardner and I went down to, I believe it was St. Paul church, one of the churches that the Betterment Association was meeting in, it was two or three weeks after they organized. And I just wanted to state my position to them. And they, Dr. E. W. Williams was on the floor down in front talking -- we sat in the back -- and one or two of the people had noticed that I had come in but he was down there talking, and they had quite a few preachers there, naturally they are good at organizing you know. And he was round there saying that, I' ; m not gonna bow! Loud and funny. These little Negroes running around here, and so-and-so-and-so (mimics in a high voice), and I' ; m now gonna bowww! He hadn' ; t seen me. So, finally, he had said that two or three times and was saying other things, and one of the fellows said, Well, you ought not to talk so much, action is what speaks. Yeah, but I' ; m not gonna bow! I don' ; t know what he was talking about but he was dialoguing against me. So, the man said, Why don' ; t you talk to the man, he' ; s here himself, and he went almost go through the floor when he looked up and saw I was there, and so, and he said some kind of mealy-mouth word, Rev. Shuttlesworth, why don' ; t you come on down, we' ; re glad that you are here. But he' ; d been sitting there talking, saying some pretty rough-- HUNTLEY: ' ; Cause he didn' ; t know you were there. SHUTTLESWORTH: He didn' ; t know I was there. And so--when I got up, and you know, I realize that you don' ; t need to fight with people in public. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
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Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth (1996) (3 of 5)
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Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth discusses leading the Birmingham Movement. Part 3 of 5.
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19961210S3
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Civil rights movements--Alabama--Birmingham
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1996-12-10
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Horace Huntley
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Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth
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5.4 December 10, 1996 Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth (1996) (2 of 5) 19961210S2 02:02:04 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth Horace Huntley Video 1:|10(4)|29(2)|42(5)|59(7)|75(3)|85(13)|96(7)|109(17)|133(3)|149(6)|167(10)|184(7)|205(8)|214(15)|226(9)|239(7)|249(7)|256(9)|266(10)|275(4)|284(7)|295(6)|306(13)|320(6)|333(13)|345(4)|357(11)|376(12)|385(14)|397(13)|412(12)|425(14)|435(11)|446(7)|458(3)|470(8)|480(1)|500(7)|512(10)|531(16)|542(6)|562(2)|576(3)|590(3)|616(3)|632(7)|661(3)|671(5)|686(6)|695(4)|709(12)|723(4)|732(8)|741(3)|752(14)|771(7)|787(15)|800(5)|808(9)|817(12)|831(2)|853(4)|861(3)|873(11)|893(5)|912(7)|921(13)|940(2)|948(5)|962(7)|976(13)|991(15)|1001(12)|1020(2)|1033(6)|1044(10)|1064(3)|1081(12)|1101(8)|1112(4)|1128(4)|1148(6)|1158(1)|1166(10)|1177(10)|1189(10)|1204(6)|1219(5)|1231(8)|1240(2)|1249(2)|1258(10)|1271(4)|1282(3)|1300(6)|1314(11)|1326(9)|1341(15)|1351(5)|1361(1)|1370(12)|1387(9)|1401(5)|1416(5)|1429(12)|1441(11)|1458(3)|1468(7)|1483(2)|1500(11)|1520(5)|1544(2)|1561(3)|1573(14)|1586(3)|1596(11)|1611(10)|1623(9)|1635(9)|1649(4)|1665(10)|1674(5) 0 https://youtu.be/aiXGJDknxx0 YouTube video English Oral History Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth discusses leading the Birmingham Movement. Part 2 of 5. SHUTTLESWORTH: So okay. So, that, that' ; s a Wednesday night. That Sunday morning, boy, my church was packed. Folks had done heard. Pritchard had been running the church for years ' ; fore we' ; re talking about. So, it was terrific. So, I got there that Sunday morning. (inaudible) have no deacons. And the one deacon that was friendly with me, he died that same week. It was too much for him. And I had to ask the Lord in my stress, Lord, where are you? What' ; s happening? But I never lost-- Because, see, I believe if you do what' ; s right and what' ; s just and fair in any situation, then that' ; s when you' ; ll be taken care of. And people have to understand the biggest and the best things in life are not done really by us, they' ; re done for us. And so, they were there, so that Sunday morning, (laughing, inaudible) them same folks sitting on that same seat. But I wanted to tell you this little-- during the conference, Pritchard got up and say, Yeah, many, many a-- (I' ; m back in the conference) -- HUNTLEY: Mm-hmm. SHUTTLESWORTH: Many notes that I signed for him. See, he signed, I got about a hundred dollars from the bank and he countersigned. I said, What has that got to do with this? I said but since you brought it up, tell the people how many you' ; ve had to pay a little. ' ; Cause I always paid my notes ahead of time. (inaudible) Well, I didn' ; t have to pay nothing! I said, Well, you just countersigned then. I said, Have you ever read where the Bible says, Don' ; t do your alms to be seen of men? I said, Brother Pritchard, you have a pray a little bit more, because if you didn' ; t do it out the spirit of right and helpfulness, you still didn' ; t do it right. I said, God has no place in this here. And you can' ; t do that to buy somebody, I' ; m not to be bought. HUNTLEY: See now, that is significant. SHUTTLESWORTH: I said, You can' ; t buy me, you can' ; t buy my voice. I' ; m like John the Baptist, the voice of him that cries in the wilderness. I' ; m gone speak the truth of God. So, that night, Pritchard got up and said, y' ; all (inaudible)! I said, Brethren, if I had wanted you to resign that would have been the first thing I would do, fire the deacons. I say, I (inaudible) that. I say, I can work with you if you can work with me. I say, So I didn' ; t ask that, so you don' ; t have to resign. We just have to establish a relationship. No, no, no, I' ; ll resign, I can' ; t, I can' ; t, no, no-- Then Ben Harris got up. Then Danzy, then all eight of them. And I had to say, Lord, where are you, you know, when this man died during that week. So, then that Sunday morning, as the Lord would have it, I had spoken to, think I got six men to agree to serve as temporary deacons. If I had known like I know now, I' ; d put them in as permanent deacons. So that Sunday morning, boy, I done preached and got everything ready to go home. I said, Because of the action of the former deacons, the church does not have any deacons at this time. I say, I' ; m calling the following men down to the front of the church, would you come down, brethren, as I call your name? So-and-so, called six. So, they came, I said, come into the front. I said I recommend to the church that these men serve as temporary deacons. Now in that church, they sat around the pulpit, which was kind of around, facing the audience. So, when they voted then they started to go back up, I said, No, gentlemen, y' ; all sit down here now, face the audience. Y' ; all are the deacons. HUNTLEY: Mm-hmm (chuckling). SHUTTLESWORTH: Say I' ; m asking the following persons to stand as I call your name. I' ; m recommending these be ward leaders, and sure enough, then I stood and dismissed them. The church went on. That was, what was that, I' ; m trying to see, what month-- October. Had to be October. Same day that Carl Erskine struck out those fifteen Yankees in the World Series. HUNTLEY: Hm-hmm. SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, I knew I was gonna leave the church anyway. I was just about tired of it. So, in November, I went to Mobile, and T. J. Hale, pastor of (inaudible), said he was going to somewhere in-- But I should tell you this. This is where really the Lord let me-- this is, this is the closest thing to my conversion, and that might have been the ____?____. During this situation at First Baptist -- remember I told you I went to do that revival? HUNTLEY: Hm-hmm. SHUTTLESWORTH: It was, was that, let' ; s see, it was during time of the convention and we had to be on a train. So, it had to be in either September, yeah, September, same time I came back and told Pritchard out, to go to hell. I was on the train going to the convention. And you know how people joke and tell lies on the train, little Negroes from Gadsden, Alabama, had joked and lied all the way to California, (laughter) almost, on the train at night. And I had not been able to sleep in really weeks, I guess. And look like when I go to sleep, something would be just doing this to me. And it was problems. Going to school, studying, trying to do. But I trusted in God. So, I was on this train, and I sat and talked, after while, about one, two, three o' ; clock in the morning, everybody would go to sleep anyway. I sat in my seat and tried to go to sleep and couldn' ; t. Everybody was on the train. So, I went the length of that train to see if anybody was woke, awake, that I could talk to, and nobody was awake, six or eight cars. And so, then I decided I would go and get in the end of the car, you know, those half doors, so I was gone look out and see what we were passing, since I, you know, couldn' ; t talk to anybody. And it was black dark, I didn' ; t think about that. And I tried to look out and the train was going so fast water would cut out your eye so I couldn' ; t look out. So, I stood up in the end of that train and said these words, Lord, I don' ; t know why you sent me to First Baptist. I say, I had little rural churches, and I was teaching school and I was doing well, and I was satisfied I was doing your will. And somehow or another you decided to send me to First Baptist for your own purposes I guess. I said, But now you know the situation, I don' ; t have to tell you. I said, And I realize that, all through the Bible I read of people who really follow you have had to suffer, some killed. I said, Now I' ; m willing to do that. I said I don' ; t even mind my family suffering. I said, But one thing I want you to do. I said, Fix me so I won' ; t worry. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And honestly I must say to you it looked like somebody just, while I' ; m talking, lifted that whole train off of me. I went right back to my seat and sat down and went to sleep, that same... I knew then it was the Lord. HUNTLEY: That' ; s powerful. That' ; s powerful. SHUTTLESWORTH: That was one of the most powerful, except for that bomb blast and two or three other things. But God was getting me ready. And when that, looked like that whole train just lifted off of me. And I knew it was the Lord, and I went back and sat down and went to sleep and didn' ; t worry about nothing from that day to this one. So, then I' ; m in Mobile now and Rev. Hale had to go to Florida to preach, and I wanted to go to Florida, somehow or another I wanted to go to Pensacola. HUNTLEY: Wait, you say you' ; re in Mobile now. SHUTTLESWORTH: I went to Mobile for a visit. HUNTLEY: Okay. SHUTTLESWORTH: I wasn' ; t living in Mobile, see. I lived in Selma. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And Motley -- I had gone down to either, see, ' ; bout the end of November, I just walked away from the church, you know, during December, and I went to Mobile. And Motley said to me, said, T. J. Hale' ; s going to Pensacola to preach that afternoon service, and he said I' ; m going to let you preach so you can be heard. So that was good for me, that' ; s why I went. I just didn' ; t tell them I wasn' ; t coming back to church that day. So, T. J. said to me, he told me, you don' ; t have to go now. He said you do what you need to do, and I can get you an appointment down there, which satisfied me. So, I came on back to Birmingham and for a month, see it was only a month that I wasn' ; t pastoring, in all my forty or near fifty years. HUNTLEY: So, you actually left First Baptist-- SHUTTLESWORTH: At the end of the year, yeah. HUNTLEY: and went to Mobile. SHUTTLESWORTH: Didn' ; t go to Mobile to preach this time, just went to visit. I was going to Florida that day, see, and that was either the end of November or the first of January, it wasn' ; t long. It wasn' ; t too long after that conference, but I had the authority now, the church was with me, and I think they were disappointed I left, but I just didn' ; t want to-- because, see, they wanted those old deacons put back. And that' ; s really what made me decide, you know, not to stay and keep fighting. HUNTLEY: The church wanted those old deacons back in there. That' ; s why you said it would have been more advantageous if you had put those men in permanently. SHUTTLESWORTH: Permanently, right. HUNTLEY: Rather than temporarily. SHUTTLESWORTH: See, you had two preachers in there. (inaudible) who was a great Bible teacher, and this old man who told me to call the conference, said, well, folks there really ain' ; t with you, they just want their deacons back. You know how people signify. And I didn' ; t say anything at first. And I did say to one of them, Well, they haven' ; t asked to come back, you know. And I' ; m trying to figure out exactly what-- did I finally make a decision. But I let it be known, I didn' ; t care about them coming back ' ; cause I didn' ; t put them off in the first place. And yeah, I think I did, at the end of, what was it, at the end of December, I said, yeah, okay, at the end of December if they want to come back and work with me, fine. But I had made up my mind that if they' ; d come back wasn' ; t any use in me staying there and fighting that battle all over again, although I could have, I' ; m sure, as I look at it now, if I did it then, I could have done it over. But I did and they were doing everything they could to cut out, you know, people. Besides, the Lord had had me do my work there. All he wanted to do was to show them that he could get the victory. The Lord doesn' ; t have to keep, he doesn' ; t wham on us, he just overcomes us and then the real work is done, my work was done. And I was conscious. So, I think it was in either December or early January I came to Birmingham to live. And Motley, who had a church in Mobile, had been called to Bethel Baptist Church. Now look at how God does things. You must not ever leave him out of the equation, because he is the equation. I was waiting on Rev. Hale to call me to come back, so when Motley called I knew he wanted me to come to Mobile and go to-- He said, Fred, say, I' ; ve been called to Bethel in Birmingham now, he said, and I can' ; t come, I' ; ve got some kind of cold in my chest and I want you to go to Bethel and preach. This was the either the first Sunday in February or the second Sunday in February. HUNTLEY: What is this, fifty-- SHUTTLESWORTH: Fifty-three. HUNTLEY: Fifty-three. SHUTTLESWORTH: See, fifty-two, my ending at the-- HUNTLEY: Right, that' ; s right. SHUTTLESWORTH: I said, Okay, I' ; ll go, I said, but I thought I wanted to go, I thought we' ; d go over-- he said, Well, Hale said he' ; ll get you an appointment, but I need to go up there and I can' ; t go there, so you go, so it was a matter of urgency. And I remember so well. I went there that day and they didn' ; t know me, and I didn' ; t know them. And I preached, what was it, I had it on the end of my tongue, I' ; ll think about it. At any rate, they carried on so to my soul and I was embarrassed, you know. I never considered myself a great preacher, even to this day. It' ; s, Oh! If we' ; d heard him we never would have called--. And they wanted to talk to me, so I said, No, I can' ; t discuss anything with you, you have a pastor called. Well, give us your address. I said, No, you don' ; t need my address, just ask him, I said, ' ; cause I don' ; t play with churches and he said he couldn' ; t come and he would be here next week or whatever. And so that' ; s the way I turned it off. And the very next Sunday morning or that week, Motley called me again. He said, Fred, they want you back at Bethel. I said, Motley, now wait a minute, I said, now what are you going to do, I am not going back. He said, Fool, you don' ; t know, this may be the Lord! I say I don' ; t believe the Lord wants me to play with no church, Motley. I said, I' ; d better not go. He said, Well, at least go, you' ; d at least get you something to get you some food with, or groceries were his word. He said and I promise you I won' ; t ask you to go again. I said Okay. I said, I' ; ll go this time, but I' ; m telling you now I will not go back again. He said, Okay, go on, so can I tell them you' ; re coming? I said, yeah, okay. Man, they were there that Sunday. Church was packed, people were standing up. HUNTLEY: Word was out. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. And so, I preached on, over there in Jude, God teaches in an amazing way, where the spirit of God teaches us to deny ungodly, worldly lust, we should present our bodies-- or something like that. And that Sunday was worse than the other one. And I guess I wasn' ; t preaching over twenty minutes. And so, I just had to literally walk out from them, not talk with them. And he said that he would, he told them that he would see them next week, so I said he' ; ll see you next week, so I just left, I was almost rude, really. ' ; Cause I had no idea that I was with the church, I wasn' ; t thinking about it, my mind was in Florida, see? And hadn' ; t been to Florida. So he was to meet them that Thursday night following that second Sunday, third Sunday, whatever it was, and that night it came up a rain, it was a torrent, it was, it rained so ' ; til you just couldn' ; t hardly drive, people in the street, I understand, could have to stop. But the church met out there, and Motley sent them a telegram that he could not come, and they called me unanimously in the rain. HUNTLEY: Is that right? SHUTTLESWORTH: It was God' ; s appointment. So when I got there, I didn' ; t have to, I didn' ; t have to, I' ; ve had some-- SHUTTLESWORTH: -- First Baptist. He said, You don' ; t need to fight, just say what you want to do. But I' ; m ready to fight, you get in a mood, you, so I went out there and really Bethel is one of the greatest churches except for the one I got now which came out of another fight. Look like it' ; s been mine to fight inside and outside all my life. When I get to Heaven, I' ; m gone have the crown (laughter). At any rate, when I got there, ain' ; t just unanimous, they were exuberant and so forth. Well, God has problems with preachers sometimes, they get involved in things you don' ; t need to, so you have to fight this person and that person. At any rate, without telling it all, there was a man there who was involved with some woman in the church that the pastor was involved with, and the pastor liked to go off and fish a lot, as I understand, I don' ; t know, that' ; s what they say. And so, he would get up when the pastor would take his chance, and contest him in the church. Where' ; d you take that text? That text is set on the fires of hell, this and that, that' ; s what I understand. So, Walter Blockley (?) and two or three others said, he gone sure, he gone sure do that. I said, well, let' ; s pray for him and let' ; s hope he doesn' ; t, don' ; t, don' ; t, maybe he won' ; t. But you see, you must remember now, I' ; m burned in the fire and solid, and I' ; m still determined not to run over people. So the first Sunday I preached, that' ; s __(?)__, he got up and he said, want to say this, we have a great pastor, blah, blah, blah, we been had preaching like that all the time we' ; d be somewhere, blah, blah, blah. See, I didn' ; t prompt him. So, the next Sunday, he made comment about the good pastor, we got a good pastor, on fire. So, the third Sunday when I got up, I said, Now, let me say something to the church. The Gospel is to be lived more than commented on. Your comment on the Gospel is your living it. I said, Now, after today, when I preach, it' ; s period. Nobody says anything about it. Said I need no comment to make it good or bad, if it' ; s good, live it, if it' ; s not good, pray for me. Well, that cut him off, see. But the devil is still in a person until it comes up to a crisis, very seldom a person will just take the low and go on, it' ; s amazing, and it' ; s amazing to me how God allows the devil to always challenge him, but he knows himself I guess. So, ____?____, Superintendent of the Sunday School and deacon. And honestly, from March until December that church just went like a fire. And that' ; s ' ; 53, well, you know, in ' ; 54, the decision. So, but I was still concerned about, even before ' ; 54, church being involved in community affairs. So, I was alert that this guy may do something, but I had cut him off, and I thought that would be enough to let him know that I wasn' ; t the kind. So, and this should have let them know the kind of person I was. The same woman who was the mission president, one of the most popular women in the church and the deaconess chairman, in October they were supposed to be getting Women' ; s Day chairman, went to hit, clash about one of them had an umbrella, and the other one had a brick, gone fight. So, I called them both in the church and I said, Well, now you know, y' ; all fighting in the church, I said, I don' ; t think that' ; s the kind of church the Lord wants. I said, Now, I tell you what I' ; m gone do, I' ; m gone get the speaker, neither one of you need to get one. And I said, Now, you, since they know you were gone fight in the church, you also will have to know that you can apologize to the church. And I said, I' ; m gone ask you, I' ; m not gone demand, I' ; m not gone tell you what to do, but I am telling you if you don' ; t do what you' ; re supposed to do, then I' ; ll do what I must. And that means that if you don' ; t get up and apologize toward the church Sunday morning, as pastor I will suspend each one of you before the church before I even take my text. I say, So I' ; m making it plain, it ain' ; t training you, I hope, but if you Christian, Bible said humble yourself. And you know, amazingly they said, Well, alright. I said, You realize, they said, Yes, we realize. I said, I' ; ll give you a chance to apologize, at least the world will say, if you do wrong, she say, confess your sins-- That Sunday morning, I said, Two sisters, we got two sisters who loved each other so much till they began to express it the wrong way, so these sisters are coming before the church now, express their sorrow for their mis-actions. So, they got up, grown people ain' ; t nothing but grown up children, you know that. HUNTLEY: (laughing) That' ; s right. SHUTTLESWORTH: Vivian Duran and Blanche Robinson. And one of them had had involvement you know on both sides. So, then I said, They have something to say. So, they apologized, sort of mealy mouth. I said, No, go ahead and apologize if you' ; re going to. Alright, y' ; all, why don' ; t you shake hands, so they, I said, No, when you shake hands, you grab hands and grip them, I said, I don' ; t want anybody just put their hand in mine. So, they gripped their hands. I said, Well, then, why don' ; t you just go ahead and hug each other to show folks that we love, that' ; s what, and they did! Now, that ought to show people that you don' ; t take, come up to end of December, as the Lord would have it, and it' ; s amazing how you remember this. There was another young lady, well she was older than I am, older than I was, ' ; way older than I was, and she was kind of prissy, she walked kind of, and she was, I had said I wanted the choir to march in from the front door, you know how Bethel is built, you been out there. HUNTLEY: Sure. SHUTTLESWORTH: Coming from the back. And I said, Now, everybody be in the march, don' ; t just switch, and she wants to be switching in like she does every Sunday. And so the second Sunday morning she missed the march, and she come prissing down the row, I walked to the edge of the pulpit and I said, Sit right ___?___. So, she didn' ; t (laughter). I like to burned him up but he didn' ; t say nothing. So last Sunday in December, 1952, the church raised three hundred and some dollars, more than it ever had raised in any one Sunday except the rallies, and we were back in the back, we were getting ready to, and I had appointed a tall lady, I had her name on my mind, she was dark and one of her teeth was kind of awkward, she had a big gap there, and Verta Funderburk, the one that was prissy, they wouldn' ; t work with her, so the program wasn' ; t what it ought to be but it wasn' ; t too bad. And so, after the program I was saying, Now, let' ; s come to the conclusion that I believe that anybody in the church that' ; s too big to work with other folks is too little to lead something. See, that' ; s the position I take in the church, and I hope that we don' ; t have anybody here like that, I hope that we do our best in all, because you don' ; t have but one time to do any one thing, and I' ; m talking just like, and I' ; m about finished. And I said, Let' ; s pray hard, so I' ; m just about ready to close out and go home. All of a sudden he' ; s in the back, he' ; s in the choir, in his robe, and we had worked real good, we had drove into conventions, we had worked real good, it shocked me that he would do that. Well, Pastor, may I say a word? I' ; m talking. I said, No, sir, you may not. I didn' ; t even look at him. I expected, he said, How come I can' ; t talk? I said, Because I' ; m talking and you and I can' ; t talk in this church at the same time, never looked back yet. He said, Now, I' ; m a member here and I' ; m gone talk. I said, I' ; m pastor here and you' ; re not gone talk ' ; cause I' ; m not gone give you the floor to talk. I said, and I looked back, and I said, Well, now would you kindly, Brother Davis, be seated so I can go on the worship? I said, ' ; Cause you are interfering. Now, I want to talk, now, I wear my pants, I say, It isn' ; t a question of who wears pants or what pants, the question is that you are out of order and disturbing the service, and the deacons were calling, they were saying, Sit down, Davis! You' ; re out of order, son, now! He said, You little weak fellows, he' ; d been the bull of the woods, you know. So, I didn' ; t say any more. He stood up there and so, so he just stood up and didn' ; t say anything, for about, oh, I guess about thirty seconds, look like, felt like a minute, but I was gone let him talk. I looked at him and after while he sat down. I said, Now, the church will have to speak on this, we can' ; t have this. I said, I understand this is the routine of the past but the past won' ; t govern the future. So, I felt sorry for him ' ; cause see he had been one of the most avid workers with me, go to the Sunday School convention. HUNTLEY: What caused him to do this at this point? SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, things building up, number one, he couldn' ; t get up enough to make comment, whenever-- HUNTLEY: That' ; s what he was used to doing. SHUTTLESWORTH: Don' ; t care what the church was doing, if he' ; d know the pastor was taking a text and he' ; d get up. And then he was involved with two of the women that was involved, the little prissy one and plus this Vivian Duran, and the pastor was involved also with Vivian Duran, as I understand, I don' ; t-- So, after dismission, we' ; d always go back in the back and sort of say what you do with the money, and I remember saying to him, Brother Davis, you interfered with the ministry tonight and I' ; ll have to, come see me and we' ; ll talk about that. He said, You said too much. I said, Not up to you to tell me what to say nor how much. Well, anything hurt me I' ; ll speak out. I said, That sound like a woman, we don' ; t have no women on the deacon board, see. I said, But anyway, you come see me this week. Now it was my idea to let him come into understanding, try to explain what he' ; d been doing and how much out or order, and I was just gone let him get up and say a few words to the church next Sunday morning and forget it. But he' ; s a big man, see, he just is swelled up, so he didn' ; t come. I said, Now be sure to see me after we finish this, I said, Brother Davis, be sure, I' ; ll be expecting to see you this week. So, he didn' ; t come, he told her, No, I ain' ; t going. So next Sunday morning I got up and read a brief writing I had written over, and I took him out of all of his offices, and boy, this girl, this Funderburk, the old I told you, prissy, she was in the choir. She was just, Oh, Jesus! Oh, Lord! I said to myself, The Lord is squeezing the hell out of that lemon. (Laughter) Well, it had to be. But, so he didn' ; t, so, and I had appointed the assistant superintendent to take over that next Sunday morning. And I got word, he was gone be, I didn' ; t go to Sunday School every Sunday, but I just went over there that Sunday morning, and he came with all his books and things, sat down right by me, I really felt sorry for him, you know, felt sorry that he hadn' ; t done it. He didn' ; t try, so Robert Turner got up and carried through with the Sunday School just like everybody else ' ; cause if he had ___?___ I was gone tell him to sit down, but he didn' ; t try anything. HUNTLEY: And he was superintendent of Sunday School? SHUTTLESWORTH: He was superintendent of Sunday School and a deacon in the church. But I took him out of it. So, this was a week later, see. So, this week he comes to me, after (inaudible). And he said, I said, Well, why didn' ; t you come last week? Well, I, I, I said, No, you don' ; t really have no excuse, so don' ; t try to make up one. I said, You were too big to come, weren' ; t you? I said, so you forced me to do what I had to do. I said, My job, and then I read Jeremiah where it says, Pull down, destroy, tear down, build. I said, that' ; s what, I said, You' ; re full of hot air balloon and I puncture balloons, that' ; s my job. I said, Now, I haven' ; t done nothing personally to you, I just had to let you know that you ain' ; t God, and people, you been a big bull of the woods in church, there ain' ; t no bulls and bears in church. He said, Yeah, I recognize, and I realize you the pastor and all of us are servants. I said, No, all of us are equals, we have different jobs. And I said, I wish you had come last Sunday ' ; cause I hate I had to do what I did, ' ; cause we been working together, you been acting like a Christian, but you were a devil under, with sheep' ; s clothes, I said, So I had to unfrock that. Yeah, well, you were right, I was wrong. I said, So now you admit you were wrong. Yeah. I said, Well, I don' ; t want to pressure you, I said, I can' ; t make any promises to you. I said, I wish you had done it last week and I wouldn' ; t have had to do, I said, But I' ; ll go ahead and pray over whatever is to be done, and I said, I won' ; t make you any promises. I already knew I was gone put him back later on, but maybe not the next Sunday. (inaudible sentence). So then during the week, Brother Charlie Watson, my fondest memories is of him, his skin as smooth as any woman, you see, didn' ; t have but one tooth, smoke cigars, laugh all the time. And he would almost do anything for me, he said, Reverend, he say, He' ; s hurting so bad. He said, You know, I wouldn' ; t ever tell you what to do, he said, But if you can find possibly to let him know you might restore him, he said, And I' ; ll make the motion if he does, I said, No, if I put him back, I' ; m gone fix it so nobody has to make a motion, I said, No, no, no, we don' ; t go through this same thing over, I said, If I ever put him back, and I won' ; t even promise you that I' ; m going do that, he said, Well, I understand it. I said, But if I do it will so that if he does anything he' ; s automatically not only out of the deacon, but he' ; s voted out the church, without the, take a vote on that, don' ; t have to vote on him no more. He said, Okay, whatever you do, he said, I, I say I tell you what you do, you pray over it, pray for him, and pray for me. So, I had already known I was gone put him back, so that Sunday morning I never will forget. He' ; s in his black robe and back in the choir behind me, same place he was when he got up. And before I preached, I said, Brother Davis, I' ; m going to give Brother Davis one minute to come to the floor and make a statement to the church and to the pastor, and upon the basis of what he does I will have a recommendation to the church. So, and I almost shed tears, when he came down he took out his watch so he could be sure he didn' ; t go over. And I really felt sorry for him. And he took out his watch in his hand, was looking at his watch, he said, Well, I want to apologize to the church and the pastor, I realize I was wrong and I realized I didn' ; t have to say all what I said and did but I was wrong. And I want the church to forgive me and I want the pastor to forgive me, I promise, and I said, Now, Brother Davis, do you understand what you do, I said, ' ; Cause there' ; s always a temptation to go back and do over again. I said, You just did for me what you' ; d been doing, but the other pastor didn' ; t have to put up with that, see. I said, You' ; ll do it again if you follow the devil. I said, But I want you to say that, I say, And you must understand that now before you do anything else, if you do it again you won' ; t have the opportunity to do it again, see, ' ; cause my recommendation is that the church accept your apology and vote you back into your position with the understanding that if you do the same thing again, you are not only out of office but you are voted out of the church, I said, Do you understand that? I said, That means we won' ; t vote on you no more. You accept that? Yeah. I said, Alright, need a motion. Just like that, see. Went back up in the stands. I never had no more trouble out of him until I got ready to leave the church. Then that' ; s a story in itself. Well, that' ; s the biggest thing, but that church went on and I got in civil rights, we got-- HUNTLEY: Let me ask you before we get into that because, think we may do that a little bit later. But when you got to Collegeville, what kind of community was it? SHUTTLESWORTH: Complacent community, accepting segregation as it is, there were a lot of dives and dens, liquor dens and things around, and police operated a lot of them. Trains blocked traffic, still do some now, but any time you' ; d go anywhere it' ; d be blocked a half hour. I remember once we were at Trinity Church, right across the railroad, and the police was trying to get through and the train stood there a half hour, building burned down. There was no communication between Negroes and City Hall except pimps of Bull Connor, I think, and we had a lot of ditches, uncovered, and it was, but you know God has people, God gets people ready, and we don' ; t know it, see, we be ready. That Scripture in Hebrew where it says, God moves at sundry times, periodically. He does, and He has to find a person. I always say God has to give his contracts for work to people who got faith, that is, people who will exercise their belief by acting on it. It gets into trust, three steps, belief, faith and trust. That' ; s where Paul got when he said, I am persuaded, nothing, you know. HUNTLEY: Uh-uhh. SHUTTLESWORTH: And so, I went there with zeal, I had no inkling that the Civil Rights Movement was coming, I had no, I didn' ; t ask for that. HUNTLEY: But now although you had gone through some fiery storms-- SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. HUNTLEY: in your churches. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, and went through a lot more in Revelation, now you talk about some tough stuff, that was, but go ahead. HUNTLEY: What about your relationship throughout all this period with white people? The only one that you mentioned, really, was the old man that owned the church and you needed to pay, you made that agreement with him. Did you have any problems with whites or with police prior to coming to Birmingham? SHUTTLESWORTH: I didn' ; t have a lot of relationship with white people. I worked in a man' ; s field up Edwards Lake where I was talking about, hoeing, HUNTLEY: When you lived-- SHUTTLESWORTH: Two or three days I worked up there. And I remembered Newt Hubbard, had a one _____ leg, was the constable who put my brother and me in jail after my father died, and they listed for distillery but we wasn' ; t distilling, the worm, coil and condense was on the property. HUNTLEY: But that had never happened to your father, to Mr. Shuttlesworth. SHUTTLESWORTH: No, no. HUNTLEY: Did he pay the police off? SHUTTLESWORTH: He was dead. HUNTLEY: Yeah, I mean before that, why didn' ; t they not-- SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, they never catch him. You know I got some interesting anecdotes, if I tell you one, you' ; d laugh. My father would get up and run the liquor off before day in the morning. And this is one time, and it look like it be so cold, the side of our house that I slept on was as high as these lights, higher, nearly ' ; bout high as the ceiling. And that floor would be so cold. My papa, he' ; d get up and get ready to get the mash and take it and put it in the vat and burn fire you know and so forth, hoping the police wouldn' ; t catch us. And we had a, we had a, and he was rushing me you know, probably cursing, come on, dammit! -- that' ; s like him. He had a skull cap on, I never will forget it. I' ; m gone run tonight! That means he' ; ll run his liquor. And I never could be fast enough for him, so it happened that this night that it had sort of drizzled rain, and it was cold enough for the rain to make ice on the boards and things, and we had a board across a (laughs), and went out past the hog pens, we had two boards across a stream. And when you walk into a path long enough, it becomes wide, water there, so we had these boards across it. (Laughs). He didn' ; t know it was ice, Papa was very, come on now, dammit, I' ; m ' ; bout to run! And so, he went on and hit that, stepped on that ice, broke through the ice into water, and he got up and said some words that I don' ; t want to repeat. (Laughing) But he did say, Damned if I' ; ll run tonight! And Mama was laughing, and I was too! Made a big fire, to stand before the fire. But this is what he did, you know. He was consistent, I guess, at what he was and what he did. HUNTLEY: Right, yeah. So, but he was never, he was never caught by the police. SHUTTLESWORTH: He went to jail twice. The only time I remember my stepfather going to church was at right after or before he would have been in jail. And I don' ; t know whether they actually caught him or not, ' ; cause I was never caught with him. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: For some reason he went to jail, I remember him going to jail twice in those years, from the time I was three or four up to eighteen. HUNTLEY: Right. So, you had to help him with that, with making the liquor. SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, yeah, we' ; d get a tub and he' ; d, see you put the barrel in the ground and you put your rye and other stuff and it' ; d ferment, yeast and stuff, and we' ; d dip it out and carry it and put it in a drum and heat the drum, and the steam comes off the hot water and comes through, and the worm is the thing where, and as it goes through it cold water it distills into liquid. Yeah. And you know, I could have made liquor, I could have been a great liquor maker. And, I thank God another side of my life, I never tried to like it. Now I taste it two or three times, it would always do me like medicine, so I never have had a taste for it. HUNTLEY: Hm, hmm. So, when you and your brother then were arrested, what were the circumstances of that? SHUTTLESWORTH: Papa had died. Oh, I guess we had buried him about, within the space of three months, maybe it was a month, as I recall now. And the people who lived right above us, they had also made liquor, beside us fields (?). And we kept the one on the edge of our line right under some bushes, like. And Mama thinks that they turned us up, that they called, but anyway, Newt Hubbard, Newton Hubbard, the deputy sheriff, came, he lived over in Oxmoor, right in front of Gooden' ; s store up on that hill up there. And he was standing up there, and I didn' ; t know, I was a youngster, me and my brother, Come here Fred and Gene. Mama was there. If I had known like I did now, but I was a kid. (unintelligible) I should have been on other things if I had known. I wasn' ; t savvy. HUNTLEY: Right, right. SHUTTLESWORTH: I would never have known, but he went and picked it up, so he took us to jail for, for that. My brother was younger than I am, he' ; s five years younger, so he went to juvenile and I went into court ' ; cause I was eighteen. I was over eighteen. My father died when I was eighteen, he was dead. So, he took the worm and got us for distillery, we weren' ; t distilling. But at that time the system could make a case and do now, the system does now, make cases out of anything. We were no more distilling than you are. HUNTLEY: It just happened to have been on your property. SHUTTLESWORTH: The coil was on the edge of our property. HUNTLEY: So, you think that there is a possibility that somebody-- SHUTTLESWORTH: It' ; s a strange, ask Mama, I don' ; t know why. Look like she should have been the one. But that' ; s the way it was. You know, in the record of the, they had this Klan paper, you remember, Wizard, or Fire-something, years ago, and they put in, ' ; way back when I first started the Civil Rights thing, that I was a distiller. (Laughter.) HUNTLEY: Is that right? SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, yeah, that was in there, the Klan knows about you, you know. HUNTLEY: So, they had checked your background. SHUTTLESWORTH: Checked my background, yeah. HUNTLEY: Well, Fred, at what point did you register to vote? SHUTTLESWORTH: I was in Mobile, Alabama. John L. LeFlor was the Negro who agitated for voting and this and that. Think he belonged to Stoner Street Baptist Church, and as I told you, people who met me could see something in me that I guess I didn' ; t know myself, for he told me, You ought to vote. I don' ; t know how I met him, I think I met him through Harold, one of my friends who was driving a truck too, and I went to a meeting and I met him, and I always admired people who stood for something, it' ; s just been a-- HUNTLEY: Was this during the time when you left here going there to work SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, I was in Mobile HUNTLEY: And you were working at the air base? SHUTTLESWORTH: At the airbase. And it would be some type community meeting, it could have been a Sunday or something, but I met him, and I told him I was interested so he got me or caused me to register in Mobile. So, I registered in, it would have been in forty-four or five. HUNTLEY: So, when you came back to Birmingham, you were already registered to vote. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. HUNTLEY: So, you didn' ; t have to re-register. SHUTTLESWORTH: I had to re-register here in Birmingham as I recall. HUNTLEY: Okay. SHUTTLESWORTH: See, you vote by districts. HUNTLEY: Districts, right. SHUTTLESWORTH: See, so I wouldn' ; t have had to register here, I would have had to transfer, only way I could have registered in Jefferson County, it' ; s unclear to me at the moment, I can do some thinking, I' ; ve been through so many things and so many detailed things till sometimes you forget how you do, but I would have had to register in Jefferson County. HUNTLEY: But you don' ; t remember right off hand what those circumstances were? SHUTTLESWORTH: I really don' ; t. I remember getting a lot of others registered though. HUNTLEY: Right. Yeah. So, you actually now worked with the NAACP. SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, yes. A little bit in Mobile, as when I met LeFlor. I was always moved by the character of people who try to __?__. And somehow or another I had the basic understanding that the system wasn' ; t right. It may be strange, you know, most people who talk to me would have expected that given my history now, I would have done something terrible way back there, killed somebody or blown up a house or something, but you see, God has everything in his own time. I accepted segregation as a way of life, I never thought it was right. I never thought anybody was superior to me, I have been inferior in my mind. But I knew that the law said that. Just like when Newt Hubbard was, see I recognized him as the law, so had I talked to Mama first and she said don' ; t tell him, I wouldn' ; t have, but I was immature. But I always believed in my core that segregation was wrong. Even the people in Mobile that were so nice and influenced me to come to the Corinthian Church, they had white folks they worked for, and I could see the difference, you know, white people were-- And somewhere in my -- _?__ about my conscience for white people -- believe it was Joe that drove the bus, killed a Black man, Negroes we called ourselves then, and Joe' ; s only character witness in the court, ' ; cause we went there ' ; cause we (unintelligible) bus drivers, you know, was a white woman who got up and said Joe was a good nigger. And he got off. HUNTLEY: Where was this? SHUTTLESWORTH: Here in Jefferson County. HUNTLEY: Mm, okay. He got off based upon her testimony. He was a good nigger. SHUTTLESWORTH: He was a good nigger. And then, see now, I did work, I didn' ; t work a lot around white folks. I think I worked ___?___ when I was a boy. My aunt, my mother' ; s sister, had a son the same age I was, and said to my, man named Marshburn, it' ; s amazing how you keep all those, Marshburn, so I worked over around his place two or three times, I very much liked, but I didn' ; t went there that much. And I remember that other boys, like John Lewis, and Prentiss (?) and all the others, but we were basically accepted the subservience to the white power structure, and we knew that the system, we knew that with the system, white man was up there and we were down here. And people ask me, say, well, why didn' ; t you make up your mind to disobey back then? The only answer I can give out even now is, in God' ; s own time He does things. And He does it at a time when all circumstances, you know, according to what I -- I should have been dead four or five times here in Birmingham but lived to serve (?). HUNTLEY: You were saying that you knew the hierarchy of race. SHUTTLESWORTH: Hierarchy, yeah. HUNTLEY: White folks were here and the Black folks were here. But it appeared that you' ; re also saying that you never internalized that. SHUTTLESWORTH: I never internalized that the white people were superior to or better than Negroes. Of course, I was brought up in the Negro tradition, we did some things that were different from whites and so forth. And then, one of the things I think way back in there, you realize that Black folk couldn' ; t look at white women too much, and even in Mobile, as it comes to mind, I remember, I always have been sorry, it' ; s amazing that I hadn' ; t done something and jumped over and got killed before God got me into this, but He-- I remember a guy, I was driving a truck, and they had a man in a led (?) squad of Negroes doing this common work, and he would just take his foot and kick them in the behind. HUNTLEY: White man. SHUTTLESWORTH: Mr. Pepper, yeah. So I' ; m driving a truck and I see him do that two or three times, and it just something moved me to say to him, Now Mr. Pepper, I don' ; t really understand why white people have to feel better to kick Negroes, and I' ; ve seen you do that, I say, but I hope you will never kick me. I say, I just hope it never comes to that, cause I don' ; t know what I would do. I' ; m sure I wouldn' ; t take it and smile like they do. Brother Preacher, you know I wouldn' ; t kick you (inaudible). On the government job. Another tall fellow, nice, and people would talk, Preacher So-and-So! They liked to talk to me. You know in Mississippi where I come from, he said, I think he said Nigras, that was a good word, Nigras pass through (inaudible) hat when they get to the edge of town and won' ; t put it back on til they get to the other. I said, Well, I' ; m glad I didn' ; t live there because I would not have taken off my hat. You won' ; t believe it! And the closest thing I came to getting fired in the government job, and I' ; ve always crusaded for people, as I recall. The captain under the military, had civilians, and the man who was over this part of the work, he was, his salary was making about twenty-five dollars a day. And these Negroes on the job, some with six or eight kids, were making about five or something like that, less. And I didn' ; t know at that time you can' ; t lead folks to strike on a government job. And I didn' ; t lead them to striking but I just took them, __?__ and Buck to the captain and talked to him. Well the captain, he just treated me like he appreciated me bringing them up. And he called my foreman. And so, my foreman told me, said, say Rev, he called me, said, Come in here Rev. He said, You know you can' ; t teach folks to strike on a government job. I said, I didn' ; t tell them to strike, I said but you know yourself it ain' ; t right ' ; cause you make more money than the average person here, I said but it ain' ; t right when we have all them children. He said, Well, I understand, Preacher, I' ; ll tell you what you do. See how God, here' ; s another thing about God. He said, he don' ; t want you back in there assessing (?), but what you do, you come in here every Sunday morning, every morning and check in so I' ; ll know you' ; re here then go on back home. I was off, getting my pay, for at least three weeks before I started driving back, just go in at __(?)__, and go back home. And then it was during that time when I started driving back that they was tearing off all this stuff, tearing these houses, got a truck and hauled to my house to enlarge my house. Everything. And I guess that comes from that Scripture that says, All things work together for good for them that love the Lord. You don' ; t know you love Him and you don' ; t know how much or how less you do, ' ; cause none of us loves Him enough, when you think about it. But things just come to happen. HUNTLEY: It appeared, then, that you had a certain respect-- SHUTTLESWORTH: I had respect. HUNTLEY: -- that white people wouldn' ; t cross a certain line with you. SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, yes. HUNTLEY: Was it because you were a preacher or because of something else? SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, I was respectful, but I recognized I was the same as other people. They respected me because I was a preacher, yes, I must accept, I think I did get a little bit more respect, that' ; s why I could advocate. See, I always believed in advocating for people who were left down or had less, and I do it now. I think one thing (inaudible), we got to give poor people work, provide help so they can work and take care of their bills, you not supposed to pay more for daycare than you make for work, it' ; s something else, but I realize, you have go to advocate. HUNTLEY: So, you' ; ve always been an advocate. SHUTTLESWORTH: I' ; ve always been an advocate. HUNTLEY: Especially for the underdog. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes, and I' ; ve always respected the law. And I' ; ve always been in disagreement with segregation. But I recognized that I' ; m in this system. And I always felt like this that sometimes, they said God' ; s gone __(?)__ Zion' ; s __(?)__. In Numbers, they have, they have-- And you know another thing, come to think of it, I' ; ve heard Negroes, we have a way of kind of easing our consciences, we realize the white man was so bad, and I hear Black men talking, be talking about what white people do and white men, and one man said one time, said, a white man got to go to hell if he don' ; t stay but a minute. (Laughter) He felt good just saying that, that God is going to equalize someday, all that we' ; ve said has a kind of an epic forward thrust, that you' ; ll reap what you sow, and maybe I can' ; t make you do it now, but I' ; ve always felt that God' ; s tomorrow has to be better than today, or yesterday. HUNTLEY: You have really enlightened me on that whole part of your life that I was just convinced that sort of set the tone for what you were going to be doing when you came to Bethel. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes, yes. In other words, when I got to Bethel, I had gone through enough that I could be, I could know somebody didn' ; t like me, but I didn' ; t have to dislike him. And I could speak straight, always respecting that person' ; s humanity or manhood or womanhood or what. But I' ; ve never said what I didn' ; t mean, I wouldn' ; t do that now, see, I tell people, you hear me speak, my yea is yea and my nay is nay, and I' ; ve got a hell nay. And I think people ought to be positive, you don' ; t have to be brutal, I say, Okay, I' ; m brutal and frank. Some people are turned off, I must admit this, but I' ; m also conscious from my own experience that God will have enough people with you to do what you need to do, and will give you enough resources with which to succeed if you want to succeed. I guess our main thing is the center of our, where are we going. In this ________ that the system has so disillusioned so many people, especially Black people, and some white people, that they wouldn' ; t care if this country burned down. And yet we have got to realize that life itself is sacred, that we are put here for something, we aren' ; t to (inaudible) and destroy our own selves. The Lord came that we might have life and have it more abundantly. (One handclap on " ; life" ; and one on " ; more" ; .) So that' ; s the way I feel, and I' ; ll be seventy-five years old if I live to see March, March eighteen, and I didn' ; t expect to get forty years, but I' ; m as committed now to trying to do things without violence (inaudible) as I was then. And you haven' ; t asked me, but people do ask, have asked me, would you do it all over again. Given the same ways, having the same drive, and having the same belief that you can' ; t lose if you' ; re working for Christ, I' ; d do it all the same way, I' ; d go through the same thing. HUNTLEY: The same thing, hm-hmm. SHUTTLESWORTH: And you haven' ; t heard, you don' ; t know what I felt and heard understanding the bombing, I guess that will come later. Or in the fire hosing or the march. HUNTLEY: This is just very revealing, and I want to give you a rest right now. SHUTTLESWORTH: Okay. HUNTLEY: Then we' ; ll get back into it. SHUTTLESWORTH: Alright. HUNTLEY: Yeah. HUNTLEY: You came to Bethel in 1953. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. HUNTLEY: 1954 was a monumental year because of Brown vs. Board. SHUTTLESWORTH: Supreme Court decision (inaudible). HUNTLEY: What do you remember about that particular time? SHUTTLESWORTH: I can' ; t tell you what it did to and for me personally, except it was almost like a new baptism of faith or a new conversion or something, that the Court had declared segregation in schools unconstitutional, that was the biggest thing that had happened to Negroes almost since emancipation. We thought that that decision itself would do a lot for attitude, but it resulted in hardening the attitude of the Southern states. I remember walking on nineteenth street in front of the old post office building. When I saw that, I can' ; t tell you exactly what it did for me, and I' ; m sure it had the same effect on most Negroes. It give us hope that if we-- and those who had felt that it was no need to strive, I think that it did something to them too. It didn' ; t waken in me any new thing. I already felt basically segregation -- I knew it was wrong. This was a confirmation by the highest court in the land and I thought that the Supreme Court decision actually would have meant more than it did directly. HUNTLEY: Did you think it would at that particular time, you were really enamored about the possibilities as the result of the highest court in the land making this decision. SHUTTLESWORTH: Right, right. I was enamored over the idea that the highest court had done it, we are a law-abiding people, and so, segregation has got to begin moving. Instead, as you know, there would be, all the officials of the Southern states were allowed to get away with ideas of interposition and nullification. And with the latent Klan activity and the Klan mentality and the abhorrence in most white people' ; s mind of Black folks being equally the same as they were, even though they might not have personally done things against Blacks. But I think that most white people felt as if they were better than Black people. HUNTLEY: We understood what the Klan meant at that time. By the same token, there were some who were more sophisticated who developed an organization called the White Citizens Council. SHUTTLESWORTH: White Citizens Councils, the John Birch Society and all this kind of stuff. HUNTLEY: Yes. SHUTTLESWORTH: And even like now we talk about racism, it' ; s just a sophisticated word for segregation in my mind. And there was time given by the Court, came in ' ; 55 talking about gradualism, didn' ; t it? HUNTLEY: Right, right, with all deliberate speed. SHUTTLESWORTH: All deliberate speed, but it didn' ; t order anything done. And those few years caused much more suffering than would have been had the Court mandated that the lower courts see to its order being carried out, even if they had just made a beginning. HUNTLEY: It was really similar to the Emancipation Proclamation when it was signed in 1863. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. HUNTLEY: Because it really didn' ; t free any Black people until, you know, the -- SHUTTLESWORTH: Far later. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right, two years later. SHUTTLESWORTH: And each time, just as the carpetbaggers and other things took advantage then, these segregationists were allowed, because, you see, the Southern senators, they had seniority in Congress and everything, so that I don' ; t really think the Supreme Court anticipated the resistance that it did nor the fact that there would take troops. But you know there is a justice that underlies, there' ; s a justice, a line that underlies all we do. Abraham Lincoln said it when, something on that order when he says he hated the war had to come, but if God wills it that the war continues (?), with every drop of blood drawn by the sword -- by the lash! -- somebody whipping Black folks -- shall be repaid in kind by one drawn by the sword -- whites killing whites, even so it must be said that the judgments of the Lord -- that' ; s in Psalms -- are true and righteous altogether. So, you' ; re going to reap what you sow. And the hardening, the resistance, and it' ; s still in one sense being moved now. We talk as if we' ; re going forward and yet there' ; s always resistance, even in the very best of our politicians and so forth, to do no more than you have to do. And I think that has been a disservice to the country. But just the fact that it spoke that, it couldn' ; t go back on it. HUNTLEY: We know that as a result of the Brown vs. the Board of Education decision, there was a lot of defiance. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes, that' ; s what I' ; m saying. HUNTLEY: What, though, was the mood of Black folk? What did that do for Black folk at that particular time? SHUTTLESWORTH: You mean the decision or the defiance? HUNTLEY: The decision. There was an action and reactions from both sides. SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, for those who were leading in the Movement, like myself and others, the old NAACP people all over, that was really plodding along the legal lines, hopefully persuasion and legal persuasion -- it meant a whole lot. It meant everything. To the average Black, Negro person at that time we called ourselves, I think it had a liftening effect, but it didn' ; t always mean that because you feel better, you shout. But I don' ; t think it had any dereliction effect among Blacks. I think all Blacks basically wanted to be better off or equal to, and I think many Blacks, like they do now, look for other folks to lead, whether they follow or not, they still look for people up front to lead, whether they criticize them or not. For me, it was forward march, full speed, and now we' ; ve got the legal background, go ahead. And I think that' ; s one of the emphases I had, that some people even see me reading that Book, they didn' ; t understand. Yes, I did consider my moving forward as a mandate from God, I still do. I never changed that. HUNTLEY: In ' ; 53, ' ; 54, were you active then with the NAACP? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. HUNTLEY: And what were you doing them, what was your position? SHUTTLESWORTH: I wasn' ; t in an official position. I would meet with-- I was always moved to talk with Shores-- I was on the Board of the local NAACP, see? Gwen, Lucinda Roby, crippled man -- Ryals, J. J. Ryals, and, oh, I don' ; t know, some others. Shores was a member, but he was a lawyer basically, and timid, and there were several others I don' ; t remember. HUNTLEY: The emphasis at that time was voting? SHUTTLESWORTH: Voting and appealing to people to be concerned about whatever elections were had, maybe your little bit could sway it one way or another. And generally, just to talk to people about integrity and other things as they always have. But I was on the Board, yes, I was active member with the NAACP when it was outlawed, in fact I was Membership Chairman. HUNTLEY: Okay. Now prior to that, though, the Montgomery bus boycott took place, in 1955. Were you active in that? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes, we were there the first night. It met at Holt Street. We went down. We established liaison with Martin Luther King and Ralph, and others. And we went down continuously to sort of give our support to their leadership. We were in it from the start. HUNTLEY: When did you first meet Martin Luther King? SHUTTLESWORTH: I' ; ve been trying to figure out was it here or somewhere else, but I remember my first-- one of the first meetings I had with him was here in Birmingham. He had come to attend some affair here, and I believe it was, I' ; m not sure it was Jim Dombrowski, but it was somebody who had been working with Southern Conference who had arranged with somebody else for me to be in contact, because at this time, Southern Conference Education Fund was red-baited, you know. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And I' ; m not sure that Martin would have at that time wanted to be identified. But anybody could meet him as a visitor. And in our interview you will probably want to talk about how we got civil rights and civil liberties combined because it was largely through me that it happened. But I met him, and I was impressed with him. I' ; m never awed with anybody' ; s personality ; I realize all people are people. At this time -- maybe Emory Jackson had something to do with it because he was enthralled with the fact that he had a Ph. D. At that time, if a Negro had a Masters, he was good, was considered quite a bit. Now it might have been through Emory Jackson' ; s effort that I first met Martin. HUNTLEY: Right. The Montgomery bus boycott is termed as sort of igniting the Movement in the South, particularly the career of King. SHUTTLESWORTH: It was. HUNTLEY: And you were saying that people from Birmingham -- SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh yes. HUNTLEY: -- going down to assist in that encounter. Now, were there any efforts to keep people from Birmingham and from other places from participating in that by the police? Did they know that you were coming down, back and forth? ' ; Cause you didn' ; t have the interstates at the time, you had some-- SHUTTLESWORTH: We did not have the interstates, and at that time the lines were not tapped as much as they were later on -- every time I picked up the line I could hear what was going on in the police department or the fire department. One time I got a four-way hook-up which we' ; ll talk about. There were some terrible things going on. But there was one (inaudible) after we had begun getting together, calling for a coordination of our effort, which turned into SCLC, culminated in the SCLC, then the police started to listening in on my line, King' ; s, so that, at the time when I was in jail here -- of course this is later -- King sent some men and he called, and Bull Connor came out there and threatened to arrest him -- he knew they were coming, see. But we cooperated, to answer your question. HUNTLEY: What was your role at Montgomery? Was there a specific role that you played? I knew you did a lot of speaking. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes, that was, at first, more, and then they appreciated any advice and ideas we would have. And you must remember that there was a national kind of a thing, a national spotlight, so there were people from the (inaudible) talking with King, that' ; s how King got to be the national spokesman in a sense. And there' ; s nothing wrong with that. I think he took in a lot of people' ; s advice. They were real appreciative of what happened from Birmingham as such. HUNTLEY: In terms of the -- I know one of the issues that was paramount at Montgomery was that of the use of the automobiles and getting insurance for the automobiles. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. HUNTLEY: How did that play to either enhance the Movement or to work against the Movement? SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, I' ; m always honest about what I know about, see, I didn' ; t know as much about the inner workings, but I do know they had people who were outside -- New York and other places -- who were interested in the Movement succeeding. I think they got Lloyd' ; s of London -- HUNTLEY: Right, that' ; s right. SHUTTLESWORTH: --as I recall, and some others. I only heard about that. I never did know, see the papers and so forth, or-- I wasn' ; t involved in the personal inner workings at first in Montgomery, no. HUNTLEY: Did you have any dealings with E. D. Nixon? Did you know him well? SHUTTLESWORTH: I spoke with him several times, and I thought that he was the, in a sense the father and the general of the Movement, because he was head of NAACP. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And he indicated to me that he had groomed Rosa Parks for this job, for this situation, so maybe unbeknowing to Martin and before Martin got there, there was-- the seeds are always planted for goodness and righteousness and justice, you know. Somebody just picks it up here and there. HUNTLEY: ' ; Cause it was suggested that Rosa Parks was really not the first one of course to be arrested on the bus. SHUTTLESWORTH: Right, and I think somebody else had, as I remember Nixon' ; s talk to me, though we were riding the train one night and he explained a lot of things to me, and you know, Nixon was almost unknown, and I used to get on Martin and Ralph about not keeping him before the people, because I believe in people who have contributed ought to be kept before, what they have done. HUNTLEY: Right, right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And yet I realize that there are so many people clamoring for Martin and Ralph' ; s attention, even government people. See in the Movement it was a terrific amount of liaison with Washington and trying to get in. And sometimes I would have problems with Martin because he wouldn' ; t listen, even here. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And I had to say, well, now, wait a minute now, you know, Washington, D.C. doesn' ; t run Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Yeah, I know that' ; s one of the classic controversies that you had with him, but we' ; ll get to that a little bit later. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, yeah. But I think what I' ; m saying, it' ; s amazing the, at that time, the tremendous amount, of outside presence -- HUNTLEY: Even that early. SHUTTLESWORTH: That early. And interest. And everybody was hoping and thinking that they had the answer. More than that, everybody thought -- you must remember this -- that segregation could be easily defeated. And this is what most people now, who write about it -- lot of writers, they have their ideas, God bless them -- and even King thought, and I thought, to a lesser degree, that if we just simply point out to the South how you, why have you mistreated the Negroes. For example, when we organized SCLC, we took over the idea of bus desegregation as a thing everybody could do. And we thought that it wouldn' ; t be difficult. And you must remember the slogan that we first used -- to redeem the soul of America. To regain the consciousness or something like that. We think that people would just, in their own souls and hearts, think, now we ought not treat our Blacks so bad, and this and that. But it just doesn' ; t happen that way. And everybody thought segregation, a lot of people of the North, our people who hoped and everything, they had hoped that we could just get together and do a thing and just segregation would die. Uh-uh. No, no, no. It recoiled. HUNTLEY: When the NAACP was outlawed in the state. SHUTTLESWORTH: Talking ' ; bout a great big thing now, go ahead. HUNTLEY: What did, I mean, what did that say to the world about Alabama? SHUTTLESWORTH: The segregationists said to the world that Alabama-- You must remember this wasn' ; t just Alabama, it was Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Georgia and others. They were in cahoots, but Alabama is the first on the roll call of states. Alabama had a governor who I think wanted to be first, Patterson at the time I believe it was. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And, so that they wanted to do it first, and did it first, as I understand now from history. And Judge Walter B. Jones would have issued an injunction against the sun if Patterson had asked him. HUNTLEY: The day that it happened-- SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. HUNTLEY: --that the NAACP was outlawed, what kind of experience was that for you, because as you say you were the membership chairman-- SHUTTLESWORTH: --chairman, and I was going to meet with two or three people, papers were served on me. HUNTLEY: And that was one of the issues, that you wouldn' ; t give up the membership rolls, right? SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, I didn' ; t have to deal with that because I-- membership rolls would have been kept in New York anyway, right? Not in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Hm-hmm. SHUTTLESWORTH: But the injunction was served on us locally, because I think the (inaudible) and others were, they had their headquarters basically here in Birmingham, and the injunction was served. I never will forget that day that little fellow brought all that sheaf of papers, like when it was unloaded it went down to the ground. And he said that we were enjoined. And I said, What do you mean? It means you can' ; t do nothing. I said nothing? He said, Nothing! I said, That' ; s not the destiny of Blacks -- of Negroes. Of course, Mr. Shores, Lucinda Robey and others, we were enjoined from meeting, remember, and from collecting memberships, and, but we secretly met, anyway, got together, a few things, not openly but we met together. I remember Lucinda Robey and J. J. Ryals, man that had the long, (inaudible), and several, few others. But Shores didn' ; t, and Lucinda Robey and I were considered I guess hotheads, because, to me, it was a tragedy to tell us that we couldn' ; t fight for freedom, and also I felt as if the government, the Supreme Court was allowing these people to disobey the law openly, you know, ' ; cause they had called on folks to defy the law and everything. More than that, at the time NAACP was outlawed, you remember Huddleston, I believe it was, got up on the floor and said something about we got the old goose that laid the golden egg or something, so I said, in my speech I said, well, we' ; re fighting this kind of a plight, you got the goose after she laid the egg, but before you got the goose the goose had laid some eggs and they began to hatch. Mr. Shores in this meeting, I think we met two times, to my recall, and I was a little disturbed that they couldn' ; t come up with a way to do something. Well Mr. Shores, in his legal understanding, say, well now, an injunction is an injunction. He said, and you' ; ll go to jail for violating an injunction. And I said, well, then somebody has to go to jail. Lucinda Robey said, well that' ; s right and I' ; m one willing and ready to go! I said, well, let' ; s think about what we need to do, so Mr. Shores just counseled like he didn' ; t, he just counseled us that we could go to jail. The injunction meant that you couldn' ; t meet, you couldn' ; t collect memberships, and you couldn' ; t do anything in the name of the NAACP, which to me meant nothing. Mrs. Robey and Riles, several of us met again without Mr. Shores, to figure on exactly if there anything could be done. And the idea was coming into my mind then that somehow or another we gone have to defy. Now Mrs. Robey was just like I was, that' ; s one thing I thank God. She said, that' ; s right, they can' ; t tell us we can' ; t do, that was right down my alley. HUNTLEY: Right, you got some support in your idea. SHUTTLESWORTH: So, I said, let' ; s pray over and think it over. God' ; s got to do something. In fact, I knew that God was not going to let those segregationists triumph at this time. And at the very same time, something else began to happen. Things move together, you know, they are disjointed but we, people were calling me up, since I' ; m membership chairman, and I had gone and made liaison with all of the civic leagues, all over this area, Graysville, all around, even down mid-Alabama. HUNTLEY: You had developed a network of folk then, around the state. SHUTTLESWORTH: Right. Around the area. HUNTLEY: In this area. SHUTTLESWORTH: Not in Mobile or something like that, or not ' ; way up in Anniston, but around the county area and part of other counties, Graysville, Dolomite, and people were calling me and all the questions were saying, What can we do? What do we do now? I believe the injunction was issued, or I believe it was served, as I recall, on a Tuesday morning -- Tuesday? Think it was Tuesday, if it wasn' ; t Tuesday it was Thursday, whatever day, May twenty-sixth, and -- think it was a Tuesday -- and every day, from the time it hit the news, I guess I must have gotten, to start off with, fifty calls, then a hundred. What can we do? Take we take up, can we send you a card and you send to New York? I said, well, no, let' ; s hold everything for a while, and don' ; t do anything ' ; til we clear, and call me back next week and we' ; ll come up with some solution. And this is what I would say to the people who called. Say, we' ; ll have some sort of a solution within two weeks. HUNTLEY: Now, the NAACP in Bessemer was, did you know Asbury Howard? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did he work closely with you in the development of this? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes, we had worked with, he and Miss Helen whatever-her-name-was down there, and this lawyer Hood and the others, but they didn' ; t work with us in developing the Movement. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: We had worked with them on some things in Bessemer and others. He was for the injunction. We respected each other. And I believe it was that Saturday morning, that I recall, I knew the answer. I woke up about three o' ; clock in the morning, sat up straight in the bed, wide awake, and look like something was saying to me, You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. And in my religious background I understand that was God saying to me, But you' ; ve got to do something, you' ; ve got to get the truth over. I tried to lay back down, but I couldn' ; t sleep, so that mid-morning I had a few preachers I knew would go with me on anything I tried that was right. Rev. Lane, who was at Hargrove (?) Church on the Southside (inaudible), Rev. Pruitt in North Birmingham, and Rev. L. J. Rogers at Shady Grove. I knew those three would go, regardless. I didn' ; t know about Alford, and I knew Herman Stone would go with me. And Phifer. And Nelson Smith. So I said to, I started calling around and I said somebody' ; s got to do something. I said, And I' ; m thinking about calling a mass meeting. Smith was for it, Lane and Pruitt. I said now, Somebody' ; s got to do it, and if nobody goes with me, I' ; m going to do it alone, but it looks better if more than one. I say, I' ; d hate for people to think only one preacher in Birmingham can call a mass meeting or has the courage to do it. Any rate, I must have had five or six interested, it' ; s in that book (inaudible). And I announced the meeting for Tuesday, June fifth. And I remember calling Rev. Alford. Now I could have had the meeting at Bethel. But I have always believed that everything shouldn' ; t have to be in just my church or even just the way I see it. And so, I called Rev. Alford and said to him, told him what I had thought, he said, Yeah, yeah, let' ; s meet at my church, meet at my church. I said, That' ; s good, now it' ; s gone be at Bethel if it can' ; t be anywhere else, knew it could be at Bethel. Meanwhile, Alford, I had asked Alford, myself, Lucinda Roby and a few others, Georgia and Lola Hendricks and some others, we had gotten together and talked about getting a statement of principles. ' ; Cause I know it' ; s an educational thing and you have to say something that' ; s gone hopefully catch people, so that statement of principles, I had written it out and I asked them for what they think about it, did they have anything they could add to it. You know, it' ; s an amazing thing that God gives you words for that moment that will stand. That' ; s on your thing out there, they can outlaw a movement, but they can' ; t outlaw the will of a people to be free. And I made sure I put in it that the Supreme Court ' ; way back there had ordered things, but now court-ordered segregation and here we are, something like this. So we called a mass meeting, of course you know the resultant chaos in the press, from Saturday when it hit the press until that Tuesday, every fifteen minutes, every hour, and of course I knew and I said to all of them there, you have to guard yourself, you have to watch yourself, because there' ; ll be the Ku Klux Klan thing. And I wasn' ; t, I wasn' ; t actually hoping somebody would throw a bomb against my bed, I' ; m not that stupid. And I knew that you didn' ; t have an adequate defense against the Klan, neither with police help or what we could do ourselves, I knew it. But I depended on God to do it. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And of course, I guess one evidence of the fear would be given where the press would take a picture, a blow-up of me, and look like I' ; m larger than I am, and much more black than I am. And they' ; d always, " ; Rev. F. L. Shuttlesworth, 3191 North Twenty-Ninth Avenue" ; , that was telling the Klan, you know. HUNTLEY: Where your house was. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. " ; -- is calling a meeting of Negroes, blah, blah, blah, blah, for Tuesday night--" ; And this went on all day Saturday, all night Saturday night, all day Sunday. And Sunday evening about 9:30, Lou Beard, pastor of Fifteenth Street, called me up and told me the Lord told him to tell me to call the meeting off. And you know, as I look back over it now, you almost hate to say these, but this is history. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And I have never intended to demean any man' ; s name, King nor anything, we had differences, but God was using everybody. And I said, Well, doctor, when did the Lord start sending my messages through you? He said, Well, I' ; m not afraid of anything, but I just think, I said, You think, or the Lord told you? Yeah, the Lord wanted me to tell you to call it off. I said, Well, I tell you what, doctor, you pray over it, I said, because I think the Lord told me. He said, Alright you pray over it, you pray over it too. I said, Okay, I' ; ll give it some thought. I didn' ; t intend to re-think it. I' ; m already announced it, how I' ; m gone re-think? HUNTLEY: Someone told that story, and said that he told you that the Lord told him to call-- SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, I haven' ; t finished it! HUNTLEY: Oh, okay. SHUTTLESWORTH: So, at eleven-thirty, the prime news hour when everything (inaudible), he called me back during that time, really, I been praying, ' ; cause I had told him I was gone pray, you know. And, the Lord really wants you to call that meeting off, but I was in no mood to talk, and I said, Well, doctor, you go back and tell the Lord, if he really wants me to call it off, he' ; s got to come down here himself in person and tell me, and he has to be sure to bring the identifying marks in his hands and his feet and his side, and I just hung up. Because I knew the meeting, and I knew he was nervous, and I knew the Lord didn' ; t use nervous preachers. So, the meeting went on. Rev. Ware didn' ; t like it, and N. W. Whitt, as you know, two of our most outspoken critics. Ware tried to get the Conference to almost go on record against it. And several of the ministers did speak up and say, We ought to do something, my God! Ware said, Well, brethren, just don' ; t say nothing good about it or bad about it, just let it alone and it will die itself these next two or three weeks just like everything else these little Negroes trying to start around here. That was Ware' ; s words! So, I knew then that I wouldn' ; t have an ally in him. But I made it up my mind that I wasn' ; t going to be an enemy to anybody, I wasn' ; t going to contest or challenge preachers, even when they organized the Betterment Association. Went on that night, and you couldn' ; t get to Alford' ; s church. History has that. But Rev. Whitt and Rev. Ware did come, and as the Lord would have it, that night Whitt and Ware wanted to start talking. Whitt was saying, all you little Negroes don' ; t know you gone get yourself killed. And folk wanted to put him out. And I said, No, doctor, now we' ; ve come to meet, and you can say what you want to say. You can' ; t, I said, you have to go on and talk now, though, people want you to say what you' ; re going to say. I was in charge. And he went on down to say something about, you know, you gone get killed, and I said, well, maybe the Lord wants some of us to get killed so the others of us can quit being afraid. Not a whole lot, I didn' ; t need to have a lot, I didn' ; t want to embarrass him and I realized the people would have tossed him out anyway. And incidentally we got him and Ware to take up the collection that night, after the, so I gave one of those rip-roaring speeches. HUNTLEY: The people were ecstatic at that time. SHUTTLESWORTH: They were ecstatic. They were, just the idea of us meeting, the idea of the state telling them they can' ; t meet. And my thought was, how in the name of God can folk can tell you you can' ; t be free when God made you to be free. And I kept on with that thing, Jesus say you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. And it was, every word I said it was just applause. And so, I said now, we' ; re going to have to organize. And we had already gotten the initial thing, the draft to be readied see, to be read. And I asked them three times, because I didn' ; t want them to just jump into something. I said, now what we' ; re getting into, it may cost some lives, it may, it may, none of us may survive, I said, but we have to do something, for our sake and our children. Do you want to organize? They voted to organize. Then we read this thing that we had in our book of our movement ' ; way back there, the preamble, and what we believed, and our pledge to nonviolence, and they voted on that and I had them vote on it twice, and they elected me president. And I told them in electing me president, that means we gone move, we won' ; t be standing still. And Lucinda B. Robey, bless her heart, I think of her all the time, she developed the word that, The Movement Is Moving, it' ; s supposed to move. And that was our drive. So, we were to challenge segregation in every form we could. And that' ; s why, I' ; m sure, that I have suffered as much as I have because I believe in challenging on all fronts. And also, I' ; m not a person who asks other people to do what I won' ; t. I' ; m a battlefield general, I believe in leading troops to battle. I never asked anybody to go and do what I wouldn' ; t do myself. And I guess when you get to where you really trust and believe in God and depend on him, you go. And I was aware, I must say to you, I was aware that I could get my brains knocked out. I was aware that any day could be my last, but I wanted my last day to be a day on the battlefield for the Lord. And I literally believe that thing -- people are shocked when I tell them I tried to get killed in Birmingham -- but I literally believe that writing in which Jesus said he that loses his life for my sake shall find it. And I recognized I had a family, and it wasn' ; t that I didn' ; t care anymore for them than you care for your family or others, but there was a counterbalancing understanding that even if I cared for them I couldn' ; t protect them if somebody wanted to kill them, so go ahead and commit. Since it is He that keeps thee, He doesn' ; t sleep, see? So that was, I had that understanding. Go ahead, I' ; m sorry. HUNTLEY: What did your wife and family feel about your fearlessness? SHUTTLESWORTH: You' ; d be surprised. We never sat down and discussed that. They knew me. They knew I never said anything, at church or anywhere else, that I didn' ; t mean, and I think they felt as if God must have been saying something. ' ; Cause I never backed down, I never sat down and said, Well, wonder if you do this what you ' ; gone do, I never, that was never-- HUNTLEY: So, your wife never said, You know, you need to slow down a little bit because-- SHUTTLESWORTH: Never, never. You must remember that the day we went down to that terminal station in ' ; 57, long time away, she went with me and I didn' ; t have any weapon, nothing. HUNTLEY: One of the first issues that the Movement dealt with, I think it was the issue of having no Black policemen. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes, no Black policemen, and voting, yes, Personnel Department. HUNTLEY: How did you approach that, what did you decide to do to elevate that issue? SHUTTLESWORTH: You have to remember that the Police Department under Bull Connor, knew everybody' ; s record or created a record for them. So, you had to get somebody you hoped that was at least aboveboard. And it is God' ; s way of, how shall I say it? Rounding the thing out. Just like when the kids went to those stores, they didn' ; t have to buy anything, but we made them buy a handkerchief just to be sure, ' ; cause the lawyers would get up in court, What you buy? HUNTLEY: Right. Covering the bases. SHUTTLESWORTH: Right. HUNTLEY: So basically, you did the same thing with the issue of the police matter. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. The young men, I can' ; t recall their names right now, were talked with and we understood, and another thing we had to go again, nobody can really sit down in a moment and figure out all of the things you had to think about and go through back there. You see, we had the problem of Negroes would want to come up and act like they want to do something and then back out, which would have been worse. We were dealing with all of that, and then we had to work with whoever would come up, whether it was schools, integration papers, or (inaudible) as to whether or not they would need protection and so forth and so on, so when you see me walking with Colonel Johnson and others and people like an Armstrong, God gives you people enough. God will see to it that you have enough resources to do. I never had to worry, and I didn' ; t, there were many times I did think about, when I was going off, what was happening back to my family and so forth, but it didn' ; t bother me because I knew they were in the hand of God and I knew I was on a mission for God. So here too we made sure in our own mind that the young men had nothing in their record that could embarrass others, ' ; cause that' ; s the first thing the press and Bull would do. And I think Dr. McPherson was one of them, wasn' ; t he, in that period? HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And I think when Dr. McPherson took that examination, a man with a third-grade education gave it to him I believe, just about what was a quarter of a point or something like that. This just shows you how silly they can be, and Dr. McPherson had at Ph. D. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: And it all confirmed my understanding that no matter what you' ; ve got, if you' ; re Black, you have to be less than. But the policemen, the voting, we were quite diligent, and we stayed at the voter registering. Here' ; s one thing that I think God blessed me. I had a church and I have a personality that is sort of pushy, I realize that, and so when the press writes about me, I am a dictator, and I was pushy. I' ; d say, Well, okay, you call me a dictator, say I' ; m a benevolent dictator, trying to do what' ; s good for us. But I would, on my Sunday morning services, I would call my members' ; names out, so-and-so, are you registered? I would always call them by their first names. No, I' ; d say, Well, I' ; ll be by to get you in the morning at such-and-such a time. One of the things I remember so well was I had a real light-skinned woman, she' ; s still living out there, Maude Elms, she' ; s light-skinned, tall, taller than I was, and her husband was real dark, much darker than I am, named Lonnie. So, they were sitting in church one day. And remember, I would put their names up on the board, I was the first church in North Birmingham to register all of his members. HUNTLEY: Oh, is that right? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah! And I said to my deacons, I said, I don' ; t want y' ; all wearing these robes out, and the carpet, and can' ; t get up and go vote. You' ; ve been watching. One that loved me so well, I got him registered and all. And so, I would just be up in church Sunday morning. I said, Maude, are you registered to vote? She sitting right beside of her husband Lonnie. She said, No, sir. I said Well, alright, I' ; ll be down to get you in the morning, I' ; ll be there by about seven o' ; clock. She said, Well, don' ; t come that early, Reverend, I (skip in tape) HUNTLEY: So that was sort of the badge of honor, then. SHUTTLESWORTH: The badge of honor. And one of the things that I succeeded in doing was getting other churches, especially those close to me, to do a lot of registration, see. Because as you (end of Side 1) Side 2: SHUTTLESWORTH: -- old white people, decrepit, old, on a stick, and one man' ; s body was-- first time I ever saw a body look like in a z shape, was a man at the courthouse who ought to been home, retired long ago, but he had a job, and the only Black people I saw in the courthouse were people who mostly swept the floors, not too many of them, and if any Black person wasn' ; t sweeping the floors, or had a piece of paper, he had one that some white man had written something to another one on, he carried that way, and that just didn' ; t set well with me at all, and I had turned the table. So, it' ; s good to go to the courthouse now and see these faces, just even if we went up to lunch while ago, see all those young, Black Negroes, many of them perhaps who never would recognize me, businessmen, how did they get there? HUNTLEY: They don' ; t know, many of them don' ; t know. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, and what did it take for them to get there? So that' ; s the thing. But it was a thing. And I never was divided in my mind about whether or not to attack segregation. HUNTLEY: That was never a question in your mind. SHUTTLESWORTH: It was never a question, all aspects. I think I sent Lola and some of them to the library, and this, and to Midfield, that Kiddieland Park, and all, everything that we could do. And then when the intrastate thing was going on, that' ; s when me and my wife and I went to the Terminal Station, as you know. HUNTLEY: Yes. SHUTTLESWORTH: (________?________ ) was the first legal suit that the movement filed. HUNTLEY: Okay. As a result of your tenacity that first year between June and December, by the Christmas season-- SHUTTLESWORTH: This was later than ' ; 56. You' ; re talking about ' ; 56 now. HUNTLEY: Fifty-fix, yeah. As a result of that organization, there was an answer to you that Christmas season. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. HUNTLEY: Talk about that for a bit. SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, you remember from June, the Montgomery lawsuit was filed in ' ; 55, see. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. SHUTTLESWORTH: It took it that long to get up to the Supreme Court. In June we started meeting, the first one was a Tuesday night. But I had the understanding that if we were going to really be more effective we had to meet the next night from Sunday so we could get around to all the churches. And so we got a thing going where, in all the churches the Movement would be announced, see, on Monday night, see. And it stayed there for years, we met every Monday night, rain, shine, storms, this and that, It would take a long time to talk about the different types of harassments that the police did, and from different churches, I never did let it meet at no one church, all around, we had a committee to get the churches and so forth. HUNTLEY: That was done in the first year. SHUTTLESWORTH: First year, we met regularly. HUNTLEY: Every Monday. SHUTTLESWORTH: The police would follow cars, arrest folks, give them tickets. I remember once we met at, as I recall at that time, Rev. Phifer' ; s church was in the middle of the block, but the police would get you by running on a red light, in the middle of the block, anything. But people came on. Unmitigated harassment and so forth. And in ' ; 58 it had gotten so that Dr. King came. He was shocked at how I had dealt with the police, we talked about that too, you want to ask, I' ; m trying not to get it all mixed up-- HUNTLEY: Yeah. SHUTTLESWORTH: --because mine is a myriad, long story. We' ; re talking about that first year now. HUNTLEY: Right. The first bombing. SHUTTLESWORTH: Right, well, I' ; m leading up to that. HUNTLEY: Okay. SHUTTLESWORTH: So, by June, July, August and September, we were so crystallized till the people themselves would move. Emory Jackson did a great job, you know, always pronounced where it would be. That was a help. So, we somehow or another felt, the Supreme Court had heard the case in June, about the time we organized, before that, but their decision didn' ; t come down in June. So, we were expecting it any time after June at the time we first organized. And somehow or another, Nelson Smith and I got wind that the Supreme Court decision on that was coming down. We felt, we knew it was going to be against segregation. HUNTLEY: This is the bus--? SHUTTLESWORTH: Bus desegregation, yeah. HUNTLEY: Okay. SHUTTLESWORTH: We were at the TV station when it came through on the teletype. And so I said to Nelson, you must remember that God activates you, gets you ready to do this moment what will last a generation, I said, now we don' ; t want all the Klansmen to be in Montgomery, see, all over Alabama and the South. I said, let' ; s ask the commissioners to rescind the segregation laws in the light of the Montgomery decision. And we knew that if didn' ; t threaten them they weren' ; t going to do anything anyway. In fact, we knew they weren' ; t going to do it, but we had to threaten them to let them know that something was going to happen if they didn' ; t. So Nelson was for it, and we got the decision, Lola and Georgia and them, Lola would type it up and we got it to the press, all of the press, and so that took some of the heat off Montgomery that here in Birmingham we threaten we gone rise if they don' ; t, you know, that was a big thing. HUNTLEY: Right. SHUTTLESWORTH: Incidentally, I' ; m going to go back and look at some of those headlines. So, we got that done and we knew they weren' ; t going to do it. And we' ; re coming up to Christmas, and I remember that Christmas Eve, churches in that area met, and they met at somebody else' ; s church but this time it was mine to preach. And I remember preaching from the text over in Isaiah, sixth chapter, unto us a child is born, mighty counselor, and I was preaching, I was calling myself swinging out, and I remember saying these words, and I don' ; t know why, I said I expect at some time now any day, some Klansman will throw a stick of dynamite at my house. One stick? Sixteen. That Christmas night, sixteen sticks of dynamite was placed between the church and the house, church was brick and the house was wood, and there was a metal, a cement thing at the bottom so that the implosive effect couldn' ; t go into the brick, but couldn' ; t go down this way into the house, had to go corner of the house -- you got that picture here somewhere haven' ; t you? I think they need to put it up in the library level under my picture so people can see it just wasn' ; t me looking good, it was what you come out of that caused the Movement to go. And the corner of that house was blown off. And I felt the, it was around about nine-something. And my deacon, Charlie Roberson and his wife from down the street, always came to visit us on that Christmas night. HUNTLEY: Charlie Robinson? SHUTTLESWORTH: Charlie Roberson, r-o-b-e-r-s-o-n, not i-n. And his wife and my wife and the kids were in the other rooms. So he was sitting beside me in the bed in the corner of the house, just like this thing but up against the wall. And he was sitting right in front of a mirror, that mirror, you know a dresser with a mirror? That mirror was as wide as from here to that corner, well, twice wide as this, and little longer than this, about half again, and so it was a great big mirror on that vanity. And he was sitting right before that, but sitting right by the bed, so we were just in there talking. We been talking like this less than an hour, must been about an hour, hour-and-a-half, about nine-something, ' ; cause he was just about getting ready to go. And all of a sudden, Whoom! I felt something I never felt, and the lights went out, and I felt such a pressure I never felt before, and I felt the force of something be like driving me back, and yet I understood something that I never, nobody ever told me, I understood, I felt a presence that I can' ; t really identify. And this wall between my head and the dining room, and the corner, was blown off, front part of the front wall was blown past the porch. This wall was blown, was just demolished, and the roof came down I guess, from up there to down here and I' ; m down, the floor was blown out from under the bed you see, as far as from here to that-- HUNTLEY: You' ; re in the bed. SHUTTLESWORTH: Laying in the bed, my shorts and undershirt. HUNTLEY: And your friend was there. SHUTTLESWORTH: Sitting right by the bed, in front of the vanity. And so, all of this floor in this corner was blown away, so I' ; m down in where the floor was, lying on the mattress. It would take a long time to describe it, but the, as we found later, the foot of the bed, the bed feet, legs, they had been blown off too, and right in the, as we were gathering up the debris, we found that a sliver of wood from this wall was driven in that bed thing which would have come into my head were it not for that -- where I was lying in the bed, a sliver of wood had been driven through that, sticking through that bed. But more than that, most, many slivers of wood from this wall were stuck in the center wall, now which was holding up the roof. I had a gabardine coat hanging up, somebody had given me a wide fedora gray hat. I couldn' ; t wear either of them anymore. I put them on that night because I didn' ; t have, I had to go out later on, the crowds keep them from getting, but I put the coat on over my, didn' ; t even put a shirt on, but put my coat on and went out. HUNTLEY: Was your family in the house? SHUTTLESWORTH: In the other room, right across, like that room that' ; s over there. But that room was holding up, that wall was holding up the what was left of the roof. This floor, part of it had been blown away, had arced up, and some of the planks had gone up into a little heater that we had on there and it was beginning to catch fire and I put that out. And Charlie Robinson was sitting right by the bed, which would have come to about the bed about half way the room, and that mirror that was behind him had been shattered I guess into a million pieces, and he didn' ; t get none of the glass cut, just two or three little knicks of blood. And know what his remark was? Reverend, I guess the Lord saved me ' ; cause I was with you. It' ; s amazing that the shards of glass would have just, but the glass was shattered, we never did find no large pieces of glass. HUNTLEY: Just totally shattered. SHUTTLESWORTH: And you wouldn' ; t believe this, the springs that I was lying on, we never did get no large pieces of springs. It was shattered. HUNTLEY: Powerful piece. SHUTTLESWORTH: But I was there laying on the mattress. And in a second I knew what Moses meant when he said underneath thee are the everlasting arms. I never, to smell all that smoke dust from years the house, dynamite mixed with that acrid smoke, so Charlie had gotten out and gone back through, we had to go through that door, couldn' ; t, let me see, the house was leaning kind of this way, so we couldn' ; t go in that door, that door was, so he went out that way. But I took time getting my clothes out and so a crowd began to gather on the outside, I could hear them. Everybody thought I was dead. My wife and children had gone out, so Charlie had gone out this door, this wall that still stood, and, but I took time and put this fire out, because if I hadn' ; t it would have burned down, and I could hear voices out there, the police naturally come. So, I put this coat on and came out, and I could hear James Revis-- This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
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Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth discusses leading the Birmingham Movement. Part 2 of 5.
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Horace Huntley
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Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth
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5.4 December 10, 1996 Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth (1996) (1 of 5) 19961210S1 02:02:15 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth Horace Huntley Video 1:|12(2)|29(4)|58(2)|77(11)|97(5)|120(3)|130(7)|147(13)|161(1)|169(5)|182(3)|193(11)|212(3)|230(9)|240(9)|255(4)|264(7)|277(3)|287(16)|301(6)|315(4)|330(2)|350(14)|373(8)|385(13)|397(3)|413(1)|427(5)|444(10)|461(8)|475(15)|483(13)|499(6)|511(3)|524(9)|537(11)|552(4)|568(2)|583(8)|597(12)|611(1)|625(10)|638(12)|651(9)|667(7)|680(11)|689(2)|701(1)|713(9)|727(5)|740(13)|750(13)|761(3)|772(15)|787(1)|801(1)|819(3)|834(5)|849(3)|861(2)|871(13)|882(6)|900(11)|913(15)|923(1)|941(6)|956(13)|968(2)|977(5)|997(5)|1009(7)|1025(12)|1038(11)|1050(5)|1064(4)|1078(10)|1096(8)|1108(12)|1120(12)|1134(11)|1148(4)|1163(13)|1176(7)|1188(2)|1204(1)|1218(12)|1240(5)|1248(13)|1261(9)|1272(13)|1283(4)|1298(12)|1310(10)|1319(11)|1336(11)|1350(14)|1361(6)|1373(11)|1384(6)|1400(1)|1411(2)|1421(10)|1436(1)|1453(11)|1467(17)|1482(6)|1500(5)|1512(8)|1526(6)|1545(9)|1556(4)|1567(2)|1580(14)|1594(9)|1605(11)|1623(3)|1632(11)|1644(6)|1659(10)|1675(7)|1686(9)|1700(4) 0 https://youtu.be/Qd8aDOhjbqo YouTube video English Oral History Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth discusses leading the Birmingham Movement. Part 1 of 5. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Rev. Fred Lee Shuttlesworth. I' ; m Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today' ; s date is December 10, 1996. Welcome, Rev. Shuttlesworth. It' ; s really just amazing to have you sitting here back in Birmingham talking about the struggle. SHUTTLESWORTH: No place like Birmingham, my hometown, the place I love more than any other place on the face of the earth. HUNTLEY: It' ; s just a great opportunity for me to just be sitting here with you because now I have within arm' ; s length, really, the history of the Movement and that is what is so important about being here at the Institute. SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, at least a substantial part of it. It was God' ; s purpose that in the evolving of the Movement I would be on the cutting edge. And God prepares people for certain things. Some people do what others won' ; t and to dare, to have faith, to put faith in action, I say it, is what God needed at that particular time, and He knows who to choose. HUNTLEY: He chose the good person. Before we start into that, let me just get some of your background. I' ; ve known you for many years. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. HUNTLEY: But I would just like to talk about your early childhood for a minute. Tell me just a bit about your mother and father first. Where were they from? SHUTTLESWORTH: My mother was born in Montgomery, Alabama, out from Montgomery, Hope Hull, I believe, out from Montgomery. And I was born in Montgomery County too, until I was about three years old when I was brought up here and my mother married Shuttlesworth, so that my name actually is the name of the man who raised me. As my mother said, when you talk about your father, you have to talk about who really raised you, so I always took that, so Shuttlesworth is her married name. HUNTLEY: And he was from here, in Birmingham? SHUTTLESWORTH: He' ; s from Birmingham. She met him in Birmingham. Her parents moved from Montgomery to Jefferson County -- they saw they could make a better living way back in the year. I was around about three years old then. HUNTLEY: Were they farmers? SHUTTLESWORTH: Farmers? Yes, basically. HUNTLEY: Did they own their own land? SHUTTLESWORTH: No. HUNTLEY: So, were they sharecroppers? SHUTTLESWORTH: Sharecroppers, I would think. My mother attended the State Normal School down there and so forth. HUNTLEY: How much of education does she have? SHUTTLESWORTH: She went to some college. She did a little teaching at that time. She had above a high school, and she was in what they call State Normal. You remember that my mother and my real father never were married, his name was Vetta Green, an itinerant country preacher who fixed guns and was very apt to fix a watch, he could make a watch or anything. And I just met him after I was grown. HUNTLEY: Oh, is that right? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, he had a little church out from Montgomery there, and I went out and did a revival for him. We knew each other before he died. HUNTLEY: Did you have a pretty good relationship with him? SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, it was short you see. I was grown and pastoring and way up when I knew him. HUNTLEY: So that was the first time you met him? SHUTTLESWORTH: The first time I met him I was a grown man. And it is to be said, since we are talking about that, in those days parents exercised a much larger influence over whom their children married than now. My mother and father really wanted to marry, they were crazy about each other, but the parents didn' ; t like him. So, they kept her from, kept her from-- HUNTLEY: Is that right? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. HUNTLEY: Do you know anything about his education? SHUTTLESWORTH: I would think that he had probably less than a high school education. He was just real great at his doing things. I have that gift. I can just do things. I built a house without ever practicing carpentry and I learned mechanics and so forth. But he was real apt at it, although he wasn' ; t a man publicly known except for little church and his circle of people. And in fact, and I think it' ; s sort of good that we' ; re talking about this, because he never did -- he might have married somebody -- but he just never did become the man that I think he could have been had he been allowed to get married and build a relationship, so he just wandered around, messed around, and never did make too much of his life. HUNTLEY: I see, yeah. SHUTTLESWORTH: So sometimes that' ; s to be thought of as people really try to consider their children' ; s future. HUNTLEY: Were you the only child? SHUTTLESWORTH: No, no, no. My mother--another sister, my second sister, my sister under me, was also by him. We are the two whole children in my mother' ; s. The rest of them are by Mr. Shuttlesworth. Seven children by him. Nine of us. HUNTLEY: Nine of you? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes, I was the oldest and I caught the most trouble. My mother would beat the devil out of me, and the top ones and the little ones would get in line. So, I caught it both ways. HUNTLEY: Well, your mother, for that time, was very well educated. SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, not with a degree, but she was competent, my mother was competent. She stood for a lot of things, and I can thank God that my mother' ; s parents and she were really religious people. And I thank God for that, at least, in my own life. My mother never did allow me the luxury of being asked whether I wanted to go to church. In fact, she would assist me if I wasn' ; t out of the bed on time by a strap or whip or whatever, and I had to go. And it' ; s amazing. I have always been allured or enamored of the idea of God. When I was a youngster, I didn' ; t rebel against God like... I always wanted to know something about the supernatural. I should also say here, since we' ; re talking, I think I made up early in my life I was either going to be a preacher or doctor. HUNTLEY: So, you determined that very early? SHUTTLESWORTH: I always knew that I wanted to be a preacher or a doctor. And of course, this has so happened. HUNTLEY: So, the preparations then that you were doing as a youngster was actually in preparation for either one or the other. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. HUNTLEY: And at what age did you determine that it would be preaching? SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, when I was a boy I was always impressed with people who ran revivals in that area. I always looked up to the ministry. And I learn now, myself and all, that nobody' ; s a perfect person, but revival time was a special time. It still ought to be a special time when people come together to think deeply that week or that two weeks or whatever it is, you hear the preaching, you have a knack, for think, of a preacher explaining, expounding as best possible, people from all around, and it was a moving thing to see people, farmers -- mostly we were rural, we worked in the mines and so forth -- come to revival and be talking about God. So that idea was centered in me very early. And I always thought of God even when I didn' ; t know, understand as I do now -- nobody perfectly understands God -- that He was it and He was all. In fact, the Bible says, " ; He' ; s all in all." ; We really don' ; t understand that. I always wanted to know more about Him, and I always had that feeling to want to conform to some relationship with His being. HUNTLEY: Yes, so it was, really, you basically had no choice. SHUTTLESWORTH: I had no choice. And then my mother comes from a poor family. My stepfather, Shuttlesworth, had worked in the coal mines. He had had one family. In fact, his, I believe his third child or second child by his first wife was older than my mother. So that he was a much older man than my mother. He was not a religious person basically. Used a lot of foul language, and we were on the welfare. And he, I guess I saw in his authoritarian type abuse of my mother -- she didn' ; t have much. I remember my mother had, I don' ; t think ever had over two dresses at one time. And I learned that she said that you take what you have and make the best out of it. That' ; s a principle I will never forget. I would to God that people now would understand that a person' ; s life isn' ; t consist of what he has. Bible says that. I remember one time -- I don' ; t want to ramble but-- HUNTLEY: Go ahead. SHUTTLESWORTH: My mother had ; I believe it was twenty dollars. We had to walk from Oxmoor over to Wenonah, which was several miles at that time, to the commissary. And on the way there, my mother suddenly discovered that she had lost the money, didn' ; t have it with her. And I was a little boy. You know, it' ; s amazing, children are supposed to pay attention and I did, I was very, always apt, looking forward to that. And she in the middle of the road, just almost undressing, just look, because ten dollars, five dollars, at that time, was...two dollars was life almost. And so, she just suddenly resigned that she didn' ; t have it. And so I looked for her, knowing her being poor and knowing her not having much, I looked for her to start crying and just going berserk. And she didn' ; t, and I asked her, I said, " ; Well, you ain' ; t gonna even cry over this?" ; And she said to me some words like this, " ; Son, you cannot lose what you never had. You take what you have left and make the best out of it." ; Now some things are just deep in my culture or my life and I can' ; t forget it. But she was tough, and my mother never -- she went to night school. My stepfather was jealous of her for that. He wouldn' ; t go, but he would, you know, this is... And yet, so far as doing things of a bad nature, I' ; ve never seen one thing to my mother. And that' ; s one thing I can respect to this day and be thankful for her life as I knew it. She didn' ; t have much, but she set a standard for us, and she insisted that we obey. If I got a whipping at school, I got another one at home. People in the community, all of us, could discipline, so Mrs. Clinton has something when she said it takes really a community to raise a child. We need to go back to that. HUNTLEY: You said there were nine children. How many boys and girls? SHUTTLESWORTH: Six girls and three boys. HUNTLEY: And all are still living? SHUTTLESWORTH: All are still living. And my mother, just as you know, was buried here, right across the street, Sixteenth Street there, in ' ; 95. She was 95 years old - would have been in August of 1995. HUNTLEY: Now, what community did you move into when you initially came to Birmingham? SHUTTLESWORTH: They moved into a little place, I don' ; t even know where it is now... called Rat Row over here close to Goodwin' ; s Store in that area. If you go out towards Oxmoor Road, Goodwin' ; s Store ' ; cause it' ; s a little area somewhere in there. HUNTLEY: Called Rat Row? SHUTTLESWORTH: That' ; s the little area they were in, and that' ; s where I understand my mother married. I remember my aunt didn' ; t use the word Rat Row. I don' ; t even know where it is. But then my stepfather, Shuttlesworth, had this house, it' ; s a home house now in Oxmoor. He and his friend Haygood (?) had built the only two houses just alike. And so he had this house so when he married her on Rat Row, they moved into that house, and that' ; s where I was raised up, went to school out there. HUNTLEY: In Oxmoor? SHUTTLESWORTH: In Oxmoor. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your first school? SHUTTLESWORTH: Seriously, I think my elementary school days and junior high school days, and to some degree, the high school, were some of the formative things. I don' ; t want to be misunderstood, but I was always very apt. I really didn' ; t have to study hard. I always was challenged to see what made things tick and so forth. And I could read, I remember, and I' ; m getting ahead of myself, when I was in seventh grade, or eighth grade I believe it was, I read a 15-page oration over three times and committed it to memory for Mrs. Owens. I was in the seventh grade this time, but my early education was the old school there going up on Sand Ridge right off the Oxmoor Road, through the curve, around the curve, and you turn left and go up. HUNTLEY: Was that that old white building, the old wood building, was that the same building? SHUTTLESWORTH: No, no, no. The one that' ; s there now, the junior high school, that was put there. I was the first class to graduate from there in 1937 in the seventh grade, I believe it was, ninth, whatever. But the old school was just as you turn up that hill, it was just as you turned up between two houses and started on Sand Ridge, it was there. A ditch ran right down beside the school, but there was some days that I will never forget. And I remember my teachers, they had... especially Professor Ramsey, a Christian gentleman, and we went to school with several classes in the same room. And I well remember a lot of things about Mr. Ramsey. He never feared to discipline those boys. Those boys were older than I was, and some of them louder than he was, but he would use his switch on them. And he-- I believe I was in the sixth grade under him at that time. And some of the boys in the ninth grade would go up to the board and couldn' ; t get a lesson, and I could just see it, you know, and I wanted to do it so bad, and I wondered why he never let me, he never would me get up and show them. I guess--I understand it now. It would have been terrible for somebody down here to show somebody up here. And I understood his wisdom in not allowing me to do this. It helped me a lot into my life, you understand that there are levels and degrees of people' ; s understanding, and maybe some people don' ; t know because they didn' ; t take time to learn, but they are here, they got a point, and nobody particularly needs to be shown up. And I respect him for this to this day. Then at least, and in my early schooling, one of the things that I guess was, is vital and key to my life, we always had song and prayer in the morning. We never did have a school without acknowledging God. Or even into Selma University, when I got up into college after I had married, years later, and gone to work and gone back to school. So people ought to always take time to recognize God. I know sometimes these days people don' ; t want you to use that name, but I never speak without saying what my roots are. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did Mr. Shuttlesworth do? SHUTTLESWORTH: It' ; s interesting but the truth is, though, my stepfather had worked in the mine, had worked in the coal mine, but he wasn' ; t working in the mine then. At the time I was with them, he was on the welfare, WPA, and he did work some on the WPA, you know, that' ; s Roosevelt. People had a thing, " ; Let Jesus lead you, and Roosevelt feed you." ; And that meant a lot for us. And my stepfather made liquor. He sold liquor, and as I recall now, many people could do much more with what little bit they have if they would conserve. I remember sometimes people would come to the house -- and this is a boy, now, I' ; m a boy -- and he would count out money, hundreds of dollars after people had left, you know, buying liquor. But as I recall, he had one bill after he died that he had being paying interest on $5 a month. He had been paying on it for years cause I used to ride my bicycle to Bessemer and pay it. So after he died in 1936 -- no, I' ; m sorry, 1940, I graduated in ' ; 40, I was eighteen -- I said to mama let' ; s pay this fifty -- didn' ; t owe but fifty dollars. HUNTLEY: Fifty dollars. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, fifty dollars. And I went over and talked with the man for mama, and he said, " ; Well my goodness, Bill Shuttlesworth has paid this debt over and over," ; and just wiped it out. Just talking with him about settling a debt and we had been paying on that thing five dollars a month for... So it goes into what we have now, I guess, it' ; s called credit cards. People abuse credit. They don' ; t realize that you don' ; t have to owe a lot. Conserving your own is better than owing somebody else, and that psyche needs to be understood in our generation today. HUNTLEY: Did your mother work outside of the home? SHUTTLESWORTH: No, no, no. My mother never worked. We were on welfare as I told you, and of course, I remember riding my bicycle to -- the Welfare Department was on Twenty-Fourth Street, I believe, viaduct, I remember the viaduct area -- and getting the welfare goods. My stepfather, he would get day old bread and a lot of other stuff, it was... We lived, I remember back there when you could buy half a side of a hog for a dollar or two, sack of flour and all this kind of stuff. We learned how to conserve. My mother was very conservative. We never wanted for food. HUNTLEY: Did you have any animals? SHUTTLESWORTH: Dogs, cats. I plowed, hoed, went to the field. HUNTLEY: You had gardens... SHUTTLESWORTH: We had gardens, we had gardens around the house. And incidentally, you wouldn' ; t believe it but I carried papers, and up where Edgewood is, where those big buildings there now, old factories or something, I threw papers at that far up to the end of the Edgewood Lake, walking, and finally got a bicycle. I carried papers, and different people do-- but I' ; ve hoed in the field, and we had, incidentally, a field right there as you go down from that great big church on Oxmoor Road, round in the valley like going to Birmingham. We went down that hill and cut back into the left, and we had rented several acres there, and I plowed the mule, gray, brown, red. My grandfather had a mule, and I did everything. HUNTLEY: What did you grow? SHUTTLESWORTH: Corn, ' ; tatoes, peas, different-- everything. HUNTLEY: So, during the Depression, what was lifelike? SHUTTLESWORTH: We never did have a whole lot, but we had enough to live. And people could always find food at our house. Even other people and children and so forth. God blessed us in that, I have never suffered for food. HUNTLEY: So that era, although it was a depressing time-- SHUTTLESWORTH: It was a Depression Era. HUNTLEY: you actually had food because you grew your own food? SHUTTLESWORTH: We grew some of it at least, yes. Hogs, we grew hogs, we killed hogs, chickens, and a certain time we had for hog killing, chitlins, and meat, Mama and them would smoke the meat, and salt it down and so forth. We had, we raised potatoes, I remember putting potatoes in a bank, you know, bank. It was really a regular farming life. HUNTLEY: Pretty much self-sufficient though? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes, self-sufficient. And this area now is within the city limits under Mayor Arrington. This city has done a... but that was in the country then. HUNTLEY: Oh, yes, yes. But, see I lived in that area too. SHUTTLESWORTH: Did you? HUNTLEY: In Wenonah, Riley, and Over-the-mountain. ' ; Cause we use to hike and we would camp over there. SHUTTLESWORTH: I remember, we were talking about schooling, and then when I got in the, what was that, tenth grade I believe, we started going to Ro... we had a bus that carried us. HUNTLEY: You mean busing was back in that time? Was it a big issue at that time? SHUTTLESWORTH: No, it wasn' ; t a big issue at all. But, we were Black, who rode the buses, as I recall. I' ; m trying to-- I don' ; t remember if there were whites. There weren' ; t too many whites in that area, just one or two, in Oxmoor. We went for just a few minutes over in Wenonah, but then they took us out of Wenonah. We weren' ; t over there that long. I remember Mrs. Robert Crawford was the principal, she was tough too, they say. Then we went to Rosedale High School, under Professor Montgomery, so I graduated at age 18, in 1940, from Rosedale, same year my father died, died just a day or two after I got my robe and everything. HUNTLEY: Is that right? What do you remember about your high school days? Were you active in extracurricular activities? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes, yes, yes. We rode the bus, typical boy, I get into boyhood fights and things like that, but never no mean-- no knives, no guns. And at that time, if you killed one person, you were marked for life. I remember our bus driver had killed a man. There was always a stigma on you although you liked the man. It' ; s unfortunate now. Murder and violence has become a sort of a normal thing. But we would ride to school, and Hugh Jackson and I, we carried on a lot of foolishness, we would laugh at anything. We were, for instance, on the bus, like going to school, he would be sitting up front and I' ; m in the back. We would be talking about kidding some of other kid whose... one of their, Joe Nathan, I believe it was, his father had gone to jail for stealing a cow. And so Hugh Jackson said to me, we were in the front. He said, Fred! Yeah! So and so' ; s daddy went to jail. I said, what did he go for? He said, He picked up a cow with a tail on it. HUNTLEY: Just always keeping something up? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, but in school, and I respected Dr. Ben Montgomery a lot. I was very apt in school, always through school. Not to take any credit, it just was my gift. Then God had me prepared for the Movement because you see, at one time in the Movement, I could go to the telephone and dial a hundred numbers if I wanted to without looking in the book. If I called your number twice, I could commit it to memory. It was a part of-- what I' ; m saying is God has somebody for every job, and He especially equips you for that, and I had the apt phrase. I could-- I didn' ; t have to study for words. Dr. King would wonder and say, how can you say things, I have to think when I' ; m up there. I said, Well, God prepared it. But at Rosedale, I wanted to always play football. I couldn' ; t catch a baseball, so I never tried too much. At Oxmoor, we had boxing and all this kind of stuff. And I remember, I guess this pulls to my desire to foolheartedness, I always wanted to play football, and they didn' ; t have the uniforms, the gear. And I would get up in my regular pants and shirt and be tackling folks on the field ' ; cause I wanted to do it. And how I got togged was, the young man ... this was Rosedale High, named Sawyer, called him Pap Sawyer, was playing one day and got his arm broke in three places tackling, and pulled off his togs on the--, and I picked them up and put them on. HUNTLEY: That' ; s where you got your togs? SHUTTLESWORTH: That' ; s how I got my togs and went right on. It didn' ; t affect me that his arm was laying there in a twisted grotesque way. But I had wanted the thing. So, this is it. In high school I made very good marks, actually I never made under a B in school, even in college, but I was the valedictorian in my class. Another young boy named Henry Williams was the salutatorian. In Selma University I was the valedictorian and Autherine Lucy, who went to the University of Alabama, was right behind me. So, I was always up front. HUNTLEY: Oh, yes, so you' ; ve always been a leader then? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, I never sit in the back of a room unless I' ; m forced to. I always sit up front. I notice there' ; s some kids usually like to go in the back, think the teacher won' ; t call on them, but I always sit up front ' ; cause I would challenge. HUNTLEY: Was that because you wanted to be called on? SHUTTLESWORTH: I wanted to be called on. I wanted to participate. Well, mine is such a long story and I don' ; t know how you want to do this. HUNTLEY: Well, you just want to talk about it, ' ; cause I think that' ; s important. That' ; s part of that development, see. SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, yeah, okay, so at age 18 or 19, we had this youth thing. I forget what you call it, Y - something, it' ; s on the Y. And I began a new job working at Southern Club, before Southern Club.... HUNTLEY: Was this while you were in high school? SHUTTLESWORTH: After high school. I was sterilizing needles and things, where the doctors would examine people on welfare to see if they' ; re able to work and so forth. This is where I met Ruby, my girl who I married - the mother of my four children. HUNTLEY: The two of you were working there? SHUTTLESWORTH: She began working there, not in the doctor' ; s office. She was doing something else there. I just met her, and I liked her. She could have been a graduate nurse, had another quarter or something, but she didn' ; t want to do that. And I remember walking from the Southern Club on Fifth Avenue I believe it was then, to West End where she lived. Then I rode a bicycle across the mountain to Oxmoor. It was-- then we finally got married in ' ; 41. HUNTLEY: You were then what, 19? SHUTTLESWORTH: I was 19 when I married, and she was too. HUNTLEY: Let me ask you, before we talk about that, how did the death of Mr. Shuttlesworth affect the family? SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, he had, we call it consumption, basically, but he coughed and spat a lot. But he was a vigorous person up until a few months before he died, before he got real down. We weren' ; t very close ' ; cause he was very hard, and my cousin who was born with me in Montgomery -- my mother had a sister and she had a son -- we both were born in the same room in Mt. Meigs. So, my cousin stayed with us awhile. He was very abusive to him and to me too, sometimes. And we weren' ; t very close, though I respect him -- I had to respect him, he was older. But when he got down sick, when he got down...well, let me, this is an incident, I guess you' ; re talking about formative years, in 1937, my mother and my stepfather would periodically get into fights. And, he didn' ; t have much wind. He was short-winded, very short-winded. And she was a fiery type person. I guess I get some of that too. And if he would start at her, she would get on about something, I don' ; t even know whether women or what, but she would just nag him, get on him, so he didn' ; t have much wind, but once in a while, he' ; d tell her, Buddy, I' ; m gonna do so and so, I' ; m gonna slap so and so out of you. And so, he would once in a while whap her, and then she' ; d get on him like white on rice, he was trying to move out but he didn' ; t have much wind to resist. And I don' ; t need to talk about all of these times, but I remember one time, my mother had one eye as you know from 1937 on. HUNTLEY: What happened to her? SHUTTLESWORTH: They were moving in a struggle and I remember my mother had a broom handle and was hitting at him, and he had a chair and he held that chair up and the broom handle split. Now I' ; m looking at this as a boy, and that slit went right into her eye. And you could see the (inaudible) or whatever you call it. She accused him of knocking her eye out, and we thought that too, we just took it that, you knocked my eye out, but she never did have an eye after that. I guess these little incidents that you want to know, it' ; s, so I' ; m, at this time I was around about maybe fifteen, this was back before I (inaudible). And we were going to discipline him for knocking mama' ; s eye out. Which as I recall now, actually, I' ; m looking at stick the (inaudible) up in her eye. He was holding the chair up and she hit it and it slid in her eye. So, my oldest sister, the one that' ; s older, and my brother, his first child, we were going to discipline him. We knew he didn' ; t have much wind, so we had figured out that we were going to take him on. Mama had been sick, and she was in the hospital. Mama had another child, two or three children, after she-- And so, we were going to go in the kitchen and he was going to come in and I was going to be ready, and sister was going to say something and Gene was going to bring up the rear, and I was going to grab him. See, I knew if we grabbed him we had him you know. It' ; s an amazing thing. Young people never think that old people have been where they' ; re going. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right, absolutely. SHUTTLESWORTH: So, Sister was coming from this room with the broom, she was gone hit him with the broom, Eugene was gone come from this door and confront him, and I was gone grab him. And Papa sensed something that morning, so I started on him and I said, Yeah, you knocked mama' ; s eye out, haven' ; t you? You ain' ; t gonna get away with it either. And so, he was aware, but he was watching. So, Sister began coming through this door with the broom and Gene started through the door, and Papa standing there, What the hell y' ; all gone do? Everybody went everywhere. (Laughter) And I' ; m glad to this day I never touched him you know. I don' ; t think young folks should attack their parents for any reason, I just... But I' ; m talking about boyhood situations. I had a typical boyhood childish life just like everybody else. But I was religiously motivated, and we were disciplined. My mother did not allow us to talk back. HUNTLEY: You had that foundation, that grounding. SHUTTLESWORTH: If my mother called my name, I didn' ; t only answer, I had to go to her. I raised my children the same way. She and Papa was this way. If he called me, I had to get up and go, all of us. I even, in my children, I think I might have been pretty strong, but I didn' ; t allow them to whine and pamper after if you get through, if you had to discipline? And my second girl, I kid her sometimes now, she has grandchildren. She' ; s a toughy, you know, she' ; s gone, I say, Alright, whenever you get ready to end up, I' ; m through. I' ; m putting the belt on, you know, or switch. I' ; d say, when you smile, I' ; m through. And that' ; s a hard thing, but I did not allow them to go off and pout, and I think now, a part of young people' ; s inability to cope is that they can sulk with life. You can' ; t sulk. Mine had to be a done situation. HUNTLEY: I remember that too. SHUTTLESWORTH: My mother didn' ; t allow me to pout. She' ; d come after we' ; d get through and if you were in a corner somewhere pouting and (sniffs), she' ; d put a little more on you, you know, to help you get over it. HUNTLEY: I remember my mama whipping me, and my brother, " ; Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!" ; (laughter, inaudible) SHUTTLESWORTH: But then you got to thank the older people for discipline and pray that at least somewhere we can get back to understanding that without discipline nobody makes a success. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. At 19, you met the woman that you were going to spend the rest of your life with? SHUTTLESWORTH: I think I was nineteen and a half, somewhere around there. Nineteen I met her. We stayed married 27 and a half years. And we married and lived in a two bedroom on Eighth Avenue and Twenty-fourth Street here in Birmingham. She had an aunt. Her aunt right over her had been a twin and she was the only one that directly over her and married to her uncle, so Adele and Josh, we called them, were the closest relatives. Adele had another aunt that lived down here by the juvenile thing on Green Street in there somewhere. They was her closest relatives, she didn' ; t have many. HUNTLEY: Was she from Birmingham? SHUTTLESWORTH: She was from Birmingham originally out on Lomb Avenue, 824 Washington Avenue. And we got married, and we... I had my mother' ; s sister, which is my cousins, she was my favorite aunt. So, between these two aunts we would do. And we didn' ; t have much money, and it' ; s an amazing thing. People need to perhaps know this. We had, I got working at the Alpha-Portland Cement Plant out there. HUNTLEY: Oh, okay. Right off of Jefferson. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, right. Four dollars let me see -- fifty-four cents an hour. HUNTLEY: How long did you work out there? SHUTTLESWORTH: I made 54 cents and the man who had been working there for 16 years was making 52 cents. But I was the car hooker in the quarry, hooked the thing to pull it up on the rock up to be crushed. And our budget was so narrow ' ; til we didn' ; t have but about two-and-a-half dollars to live on for two weeks, got paid every two weeks, didn' ; t we? My wife would buy a lot of corn and English peas. I used to say in church sometimes, she English pea-ed me to death. I don' ; t like them today. But this is it, and then we didn' ; t stay there very long. I always wanted to buy a house. That' ; s another thing, from a child. So, we went out here to, I don' ; t know where you call this little place, it' ; s right below the Number Ten mine, little area there in Wenonah. It' ; s not Wenonah, but you call it something -- Toppler City. HUNTLEY: Toppler City, okay. SHUTTLESWORTH: A man named William Croon sold us a house, had four rooms, for $750. I thought we were doing great things. So, he gave me whatever it was on that house. Folks think lawsuits -- and I' ; ve been in about forty lawsuits -- that' ; s the first lawsuit I got in. The house was about five feet on somebody else' ; s property. And we learned that, and he wouldn' ; t move it, so that was the first lawsuit that I... But he did move it. Incidentally, this is the same house that the state tried to get when, you know, they took my car in this Montgomery Times suit. And they checked into that property, but as the Lord would have it... and I' ; m ahead of myself, I had got the Rev. L. J. Rogers to make me a deed, back, and they did move the house, and he finally put two block houses there. They would have taken that property also, but it was a deed from me to Rogers, although I had the real deed and just hadn' ; t filed it yet, they would have taken it. They did take my fifty-seven Plymouth car and they took some properties from Ralph Abernathy and others. HUNTLEY: Well, when you, after marriage, you went to work, you worked for a while at the cement plant? SHUTTLESWORTH: I worked at the cement plant until... and these dates may be a little hazy in my mind. Worked there for at least three years, but I remember I could walk to work, it wasn' ; t that far from Toppler City over there. And then, the first child was born in that house, Patricia Ann, in 1943. We married in 1941, she was born in 1943, January, or February, January. And then I had met another young man named Dewitt, and Dave, this is how, you know, my life is almost like Abraham' ; s, vagabond, going around. And we decided that we would go, where we started, to work at this Bechtel-McCone airplane factory here in Birmingham. We wanted to work there so we could get in defense work. Instead of that, we took mech-- automobile mechanics, and under the government work. That' ; s how I learned how to, you know, I used to overhaul my own motors and things. HUNTLEY: Oh, you did? SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh, yeah. Although I had a natural inclination for things like that, but, took 700 and some hours of training. And we decided that we would go to Mobile, start work in the shipyards to make some money. You know, everybody was trying to make money then, shipyards. HUNTLEY: Defense work, more or less. SHUTTLESWORTH: Right. So Dewitt had a family here, his friend Dave, he didn' ; t have a family, but he had a cousin in Mobile who was named Iola, and she lived in an old barber' ; s house with a porch go all the way around the house, and a round barber shop about the size of this room, on the corner. So, we decided that we would stay with her until we got places to go. So, I left my wife and child at our house, and we went on down to Mobile. As the Lord would have it, it' ; s amazing how God fixes you for what you have to do. We went to the federal government' ; s Brookley Air Force Base the very next day, didn' ; t get to the shipyards. We got hired, all three of us, as truck drivers. HUNTLEY: On the base? SHUTTLESWORTH: On the base. Brookley Air Force Base. And we got jobs where I didn' ; t have anything to do. I could drive my truck and take people to a place and park it all day. Sometimes, like these joints between the runway, just scrape the old out and put fresh tar, and that would be one thing, and sometimes other stuff. And that' ; s all I had to do. Sometimes, I just, if I went that morning I didn' ; t have anything to do but to park my car and read my Bible all day. So, I was lured to the Bible. I concentrated, I didn' ; t have anything to do but that. HUNTLEY: How long were you there? SHUTTLESWORTH: Well, we went in, let' ; s see, was it forty-three, I believe it was. HUNTLEY: Okay. Did you bring your family down? SHUTTLESWORTH: Not yet. This is how the Lord does. You skirt on the edge of disaster and yet you are guided. You know that scripture in the Bible that says, " ; The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord" ; ? That' ; s as true as you can believe. So, at this time, I have never believed in people just living prolific, rough lives. I' ; ve always, I was trained up basically religious and to have some respect for yourself. So, I was the youngest of the trio of us. Now in this barber shop, which wasn' ; t, it was a round as I recall it, it was round, not square like this room, but not too much more room than in here. And there were three young women lived there, one of them was real light skinned, another one' ; s about your color, another one slightly darker, but all were nice-looking girls. But the light-skinned girl just took a-- oh, she just-- And all we had to do, see, once we went to work, went to work from 3:30 to 11:00 I believe it was, we would sit out and play checkers. See, that' ; s all we did. The cousin, Dave' ; s -- what was Dave' ; s last name? -- Dewitt was Dewitt Murphy. Dave' ; s cousin named Iola, nice looking, dark, dark-skinned, but she was taking care of this old man. He was real old. And she just cooked and he... I don' ; t know what their arrangements were. And she, she (inaudible), but what-- SHUTTLESWORTH: I didn' ; t hate them, many light-skinned people around. But I just never, I never wanted to be called black by them, I just thought that you know, you hear kids calling each other that. The other thing that made it bad, she would come out and wear just a bra and shorts. Which I thought was practically ungodly for a woman at that time in the 40s. My puritanical, I guess, my, I wasn' ; t so puritanical but I just-- HUNTLEY: That was your upbringing. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. And maybe I could have liked her a little better if she hadn' ; t been so pushy. I couldn' ; t move, she wanted move for me [inaudible], and so Dewitt' ; s cousin' ; s, Iola, she always empathized with her. Now the other two girls, very seldom even, I didn' ; t see them hardly, they would come by once in a while and keep moving. One of them there I thought was nice, fairly nice, I could have kind of liked her. Also, at this time, the government was paying $50 a month as you recall. And all three of those girls liked me, I didn' ; t know it, and this girl, the light-skin, she wanted to give me her check, and I never believed in men living off women, that' ; s another principle. And I thought it was ungodly for her to do something like this. So, I liked her that much less. But the one I could have liked, she was quiet, and you know, in a situation where one person is gonna take over to do, other people just sort of hang back. And that' ; s why I guess the Lord-- And then we were sitting down discussing it one day, Dewitt, Dave and me, and we were playing checkers. She had been there, and Iola had suggested that I ought to take her to the movies, since she liked me so well. I say, Well, I just don' ; t like her, and I don' ; t play with people, I don' ; t carry people on. She said, well, you can be nice to people. She said, there' ; s nothing wrong with you, and there ain' ; t nothing wrong with her liking you. Well, she' ; d never said anything like this. So she went back in the house, I think she' ; s tricking and fooling, and you know, these things, now, say something to me. Dewitt and Dave said, you know what, he said, Fred is the damnedest fool I ever seen, and-- HUNTLEY: Were they married as well? SHUTTLESWORTH: Dewitt was married. He had family here. Dave was not married. I said, " ; What do you mean?" ; He said, " ; You got three women crazy about you and you don' ; t like none of them." ; And Dave said, " ; No, he' ; s got four, say, ' ; cause my cousin Iola likes him." ; I said to myself, my God, look at what I' ; m into, to myself. So it was that situation that made me, we had been there about a week and few days, and government paid twice a month, and we got a partial payment. And it was then that I decided with this partial payment to come back home, get my wife and baby at that time, and move down to Mobile, we moved into a project. Now it wasn' ; t that I was so good, and I don' ; t want to say that I would not have gotten involved slightly, at least, with the one I would have liked. But the other one just pushed. So, this was God' ; s way of keeping me, because you can get into this immorality stuff and just really... And I thank God for that now. HUNTLEY: Your surroundings will make you see things. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, yeah. So, I came back home and got my wife and the child, we were churching. Another thing you might be interested in -- I don' ; t know how long I' ; m supposed to talk -- I was reared up in a Methodist church out here in Oxmoor. St. Matthew AME, I go out there now and do the services. I never forget your raising ; I don' ; t think you ever get too large to go back to where your roots were. And I consider it an honor to see the old people and go back to those places. And my mother was a Methodist. I had sucked a moving toward the ministry by the time I was 18, seventeen-and-a-half, and I had spoken to my pastor about it, and he said, and in ' ; 43 he was to take me to the presiding bishop in October, I think that' ; s when the Methodists meet. But we left Birmingham in June, you see, or July going to Mobile. And he was going to take me and ask for the licentiate to get my license if the mission (inaudible) approved. But we went to Mobile, so naturally I wanted to follow my upbringing and stay with the Methodist church. As God would have it, we had some good friends in the Baptist church. And the Lord had always been good to me. People just take to me for some reason. I don' ; t know why. And some people in the Baptist church were just real nice, and said, come up and visit us, and so I always was apt, and like I' ; d get up and do a Sunday School lesson and so forth, just took to me. And there were people, the whole church was friendly, well, this was Corinthian Baptist Church. And the St. Paul Methodist Church was down the street, oh, maybe two blocks away. And I tried to go there, but it looks as if there was something about the services that was just cold, methodic and cold. And it was a difference in their worship at this Baptist church, and of course, I was raised up, you know, in Oxmoor and got a good Baptist church there, and we would go down there, we respect them, but I never thought of being a Baptist. And I said to my wife on a couple of occasions, I said, you know it' ; s a strange thing, I don' ; t feel like I feel. I said, I' ; m sort of leaning to this. She said, Well, you know we' ; re Methodist, and her family was Methodist and so forth. And we had to drive up from Mobile to Birmingham several times, and I told her aunt and my mother, I said, You know it' ; s a strange thing, but I have a feeling I never felt before about this, I' ; m really sort of leaning, she said, well, you know you' ; re (inaudible). So we just didn' ; t make too much out of it. I went back to Mobile and I had acknowledged to the pastor there that I felt the call to ministry, and they invite, welcome to the church. But I had to go back and settle the issue of the Methodist church, and I said, well Ruby, let' ; s go -- my wife Ruby -- let' ; s go to church, and so she said -- and it look like the service was so cold, and the minister was preaching, looked like he was doing a strange-- and I said, Well, you know, I' ; m really considering joining this other church, and then I went (inaudible). I was almost tempted to join the next Sunday, but I went back Methodist church again, but it just didn' ; t take. HUNTLEY: So, you went back to the Methodist church twice? SHUTTLESWORTH: I went back three times, three or four times. So the next Sunday, I went back to this Baptist church. Now I remember the sermon that pastor preached, over in Samuel where the Philistines had taken the arc and Samuel had recaptured it and brought it back. And he said, the text was, Samuel said, here I set my Ebenezer, for here truly the Lord has blessed me or helped me or something like that. And that sort of made me realize you have to make a decision and prove what the Lord has done. And I remember that particular sermon out of many which I-- so I joined that church that day, here I set my Ebenezer. Now the historical backdrop is this -- had I been in the Methodist church, I could not be where I am today in the civil rights because the Bishop would have the say, and he was here in Birmingham. A young Methodist minister out in Ensley got in trouble with the Bishop because he would bring people to the Movement and so forth. HUNTLEY: So, they' ; ll move you? SHUTTLESWORTH: They can move you around. They can dilute. And so, I remember in ' ; 74, he was in Durham, North Carolina, a young man, and I went there and spoke for him at Durham, North Carolina, at the University and other things, he had a big Methodist church there. And he told about how his Bishop had done him. So, my point is that I would not have freedom of speech and expression. In the Baptist church as long as I can get along with my folks-- and so, I was free, I could say what I wanted to say. No Bishop, no President, nobody came, nobody else could tell me what to say-- HUNTLEY: In your congregation. SHUTTLESWORTH: --and I was absolutely free. And when I got to Bethel, now it' ; s a long history of -- and I' ; m just in Mobile, I told you my life was like a vagabond. Then the second child was born, Ruby. HUNTLEY: Born in Mobile? SHUTTLESWORTH: In Mobile. Ruby, my wife, we wanted a boy, my wife named her Ruby and I knew a boy was coming after awhile, I sent the certificate back and named her Ruby Fredericka. That' ; s the second girl. And then the third child was a boy, he was born in September, forty-six. Now in Mobile... HUNTLEY: What' ; s his name? SHUTTLESWORTH: Fred, Jr. Now, I have started taking training, must understand. I was working during the day, going to school out in the country. My wife was with me now, out in a place like would be Bessemer from here, taking night school for four nights a week. HUNTLEY: What did you-- SHUTTLESWORTH: My theological training, ministers would come and take a little theology, a little this, a little that and the other. But I had a gift, and when the minister licensed me, Rev. E. A. Palmer, at Corinthian, when I joined the church, he let me preach my trial sermon, baptized me -- I was the first man he had baptized. And, of course, and licensed. HUNTLEY: This was in Mobile? SHUTTLESWORTH: Mobile, in ' ; 44, licensed in ' ; 45, as I recall. So then I preached around (?), and that gift, and everybody allowed me to do, you know, preach at the churches and in the district. I had this gift, and so as the Lord would have it, it' ; s just so many-- and you have to just direct how you want this to go-- HUNTLEY: We' ; re going good. This is important, you' ; re talking about foundations. SHUTTLESWORTH: The white Baptists had what is known in Mobile as Goodwill Missionary to the Negroes. (Laughing) That' ; s interesting in these times. HUNTLEY: Goodwill Missionaries. SHUTTLESWORTH: Old Dr. Maynard and his wife, retired white minister and his wife, they took an unusual interest in me and my family, but they had I guess had seen some-- knew I was taking this theological training, and they sought to help, little help they could give us -- although I was working, I didn' ; t need a whole lot. But they took it to be sure that I would continue my religious training. And here' ; s what really made me... I had a permanent job with the government. I had... not being a truck driver, but tow motor operator now, where you stack things. My job was permanent with the government, I could have been working as long as, you know. But we went to Mobile to save money, at the end of one year we had exactly $93 saved and I said to her, Ruby, I said I could pick up $93 worth of sticks in one year, in a year. I said, Something' ; s wrong, we' ; re not saving money. I said, What I' ; m going to do, I said, I have a feeling that my life, for some reason, is designed to touch many people. I don' ; t know why I feel like this. I said, So I' ; m going to school to prepare myself. Whatever God wants me to do I don' ; t know. I had no idea, of civil rights. I had no idea of going by two rural churches, and the historic First Baptist Church -- First Baptist Church is usually " ; Fust" ; Baptist Church -- and that' ; s where I really got ready in Selma for the Civil Rights Movement, I went through... So, I said I' ; m going to school. Well, she never did contradict me cause she knew I was going to do what I thought I should do anyway. She said, Well, if that' ; s what you feel. So, I began -- I would have gone to school in 1946, but she was pregnant. I have great reservations about men running off and leaving their wives, husbands leaving their wives in distress. Dr. Maynard and others wanted me to go that year, but I said, no, I' ; m not going to leave my wife. I said I' ; ll try to go next year. So, I went on and worked until the next year, and I remember being in the theological contest, oratorical contest, I was-- come up to Selma University, see, from the Mobile thing, and there was people from other areas. HUNTLEY: You represented the Mobile district? SHUTTLESWORTH: Represented the Mobile. I had learned an oration and D. L. Motley, who was pastoring, he was in Selma, they had churches, little rural churches, and so I went up and Motley orated, and when I orated, man, the whole-- and the president said, Well, you know, I would be glad to have you, we' ; ve got property back here, we' ; ve got a little property we' ; re going to build for married students. Which was just right, and I said, Well, I' ; d like to go to school, I told my wife-- HUNTLEY: This is at Selma University? SHUTTLESWORTH: Selma University, President Dinkins. He said, We' ; d be glad to help you if you could come. Dr. Maynard and his wife, they were always encouraging. But the boy was born now in ' ; 46. So in September of ' ; 47, now you must remember -- I told you I had these gifts -- the government always stows away, at that time, a lot of, still does, aviators' ; coats, salvage yard, tear down buildings, so what -- I was driving a truck now, and instead of carrying some of that lumber to the salvage yard, I just, I had gotten with a young man, we bought a lot on -- mine faced Jett Street, and his faced Atwood Street. I said, now, if you help me build me a house, I' ; ll help you build you a house. I had never taken training, but we built these (audible), 12 by 24, two rooms. Then I try and help him build him one. And then I hauled a lot of that lumber that the government was going to send to the salvage yard, I just piled up on mine, and eventually made that 12 room into a 24 foot room. I figured out how to extend, and it was an old man that loaned to Corinthian church who helped me, you know. There is always help when you want to do something. So, I, on my own I had a house, five rooms, my own house, which, when I left Mobile-- and I put in, my purpose in saying this, I put in my own gas, put in my own pipes, I can do that now, and I bought a butane tank, had my gas, and of course, so when I got ready to go to school, I dug my tank up and put it on the truck, bought a cow from a market, dressed out the 450 pounds of beef -- I had too much beef! -- and piled up the stuff, truck, oh, high, way up high, big truck. And it was a hurricane going on in Mobile at that time when we left, but people came and wished us well and had prayer. It was a beautiful day. I went on to Selma. We got there, and we lived in this house back down there. The president of the university, well-educated man but if his wife hadn' ; t had some money, he would have starved to death, President Dinkins. Yet he could speak some five or seven languages, he told me about it. But he just couldn' ; t get things going. So, I moved in this house, I put my own tank, hooked it up and everything. He said, Well, Mr. Shuttlesworth, and of course I glazed some windows and I fired the boiler in the girls' ; dormitory, get up early in the morning. There wasn' ; t too much he could do because they didn' ; t have that much money. Selma University has always been poor. HUNTLEY: So, you were a Godsend to the university then? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yes. HUNTLEY: In more ways than one. SHUTTLESWORTH: More ways than one. So he said, But I' ; ll tell you what I' ; ll do, he said, Now I could buy you a cow and you could pay for it by giving the school two quarts of milk a day, 14 ¼ cents, and then all over that that you have, you' ; ll buy it for 14¼ cents. And that' ; s how I helped myself a little bit. And I remember the cow had twin calves and that was the first thing I got in the paper way back then. A cow having twin calves was unusual. Of course, the cow died a little later. But I worked and started Selma University, glad to be in school, and we made it. We didn' ; t have much, but we didn' ; t have to starve, and then my wife, being about a year being close to having nurse' ; s training, began working at Burwell Infirmary. HUNTLEY: She had nurse training in Birmingham? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, before, she was going to Tuskegee before, when she lived in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: So, she did go to Tuskegee? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah, she didn' ; t lack but about three months from being a full graduated nurse. And so, she started working at Burwell Infirmary, they liked her over there. President Dinkins was a dyed-in-the-wool Baptist, he just didn' ; t think Baptists and Catholics should have anything to do-- And even as a young man, I never did let people just dictate to me and run over me. So, he would see her, he' ; d be coming early in the morning, I' ; d be getting up, you know, and he' ; d be coming down from his home to the school, be reading the paper, walking, reading the paper. Remember once a dog jumped at him, he fell over the thing, not paying attention. Just that he was that kind of eccentric person, but a nice person. And so, one day he told me, he said, Oh, Mr. Shuttlesworth -- never did call me reverend -- oh, your wife work with Catholics? Because, you know, Baptists don' ; t have anything to do with Catholics, no, no, no. And so, when he got through I said, Mr. Dinkins, nobody tells my wife what to do but me. I said, Now, you' ; ve helped me put in a few windowpanes, and I appreciated you buying the cow, but that' ; s, I can' ; t live out of that. And he was so taken aback, he didn' ; t expect my response, he never mentioned it again. She just kept right on working and of course the Lord blessed us. Well, in Selma, the same as in Mobile, I got friends, Danny Pritchards, a deacon at First Baptist, and I started going to school there, naturally, Sunday school and church, my gift, I guess, made a way for me. And this is forty-seven. In July ' ; 48, a church called me and eleven miles beyond, Everdale Baptist. And in October another one on this side, four miles west of Selma, called, so I had two rural churches. HUNTLEY: Two churches? SHUTTLESWORTH: Two rural churches, same year. HUNTLEY: First and third and second and fourth? SHUTTLESWORTH: Right. Well, the first was a one-Sunday, third Sunday, church, and they, the church had been built for $1500 the year I was born, 1922, and yet they owed $6000 on it. You can imagine. HUNTLEY: Wow. SHUTTLESWORTH: So, they call me, a college student, you know, and I go out there, and I remember in our very first meeting. I think my preparation has been thorough, the Lord just brought me through things, and not having training from older people in knowing how to do it, my sense of what' ; s right and what' ; s morally right always guided me, so I remember the very first meeting. They had every year at that church they called in preachers, some preachers been called there five times or more. So, they called me and just didn' ; t have but three deacons, one of them, he read the (?). You want to hear this? I said, What is there to hear? He said, Well you want to hear me just read this? I said, Well, go ahead and read it. He said, Everdale Baptist Church called Rev. F. L. Shuttlesworth for the year 1948 and 49. I said, Read that again. So, he read it, Everdale Baptist Church called Rev. F. L. Shuttlesworth for the year 1948 and 49. I said, Then you still don' ; t have a pastor. Well, no, we called, we want you. I said, No, that' ; s been your problem, I think, calling pastors every year instead of going on and doing. I said, now, I don' ; t have a church, I' ; m in school, and I don' ; t really need one, I said, y' ; all called me. Well, we want you. I said, well, no, but don' ; t call me every year. I said, I believe that the Holy Spirit has something to do with the churches and if you follow him you don' ; t need to have a pastor every year. A young man, 26 years old. And he said, Well, we want you. I said, Well, no, I won' ; t even come. I said, And I' ; m ready to dismiss the meeting. Go and y' ; all can call someone. No, we want you. I said, Well, the only way you can have me is to make it indefinite. I said, And I' ; m not asking you, because I don' ; t need no church. Well, we want you. I said, Okay. I want to move we make it indefinite. I said, You don' ; t have to, I said, but this is your last vote on me today. HUNTLEY: You were twenty-five years old at this time? SHUTTLESWORTH: Twenty-six. HUNTLEY: Twenty-six years old. SHUTTLESWORTH: This is ' ; 48 ; I was born in ' ; 22. July of ' ; 48. So they made it unanimous. And in that very meeting I think I set the tone of how the church should be run. I said, Okay, now you say you think you owe six thousand dollars debt, I said, but we have to find out from the man what it is. I said, Okay, let' ; s check, how many deacons you got? They said, We got three. I said, I don' ; t know them, they' ; re alright with me. Are they alright with you? I said, Because these people are the people you' ; re going to have to work with. Anybody who knows anything about why they shouldn' ; t be deacons you have the right now to say it because these are the people I' ; m going to work with. We' ; ve got to get this debt paid. And all of a sudden the fellow, he said, Well, I don' ; t have nothing against Jones and Sears, but that Parker, the only reason he don' ; t take a drink of liquor, he can' ; t get it -- he drink liquor like a snake, like a fish. And people (imitates clamor of people talking), and I said, Just a minute. I asked anybody to say honestly what you know. I said, He has courtesy and you don' ; t. You talk about people. I don' ; t believe in talking about-- I said, Now is the time for him to say, in the church -- we' ; re here in the name of the Lord -- what' ; s wrong. I said, He has the courage. So, let him say that. I said, Anybody else? No (whispered). And then here comes my judgmental quality, I said, and I began wondering how I was going to solve this thing. I said, No, he' ; s right. I asked him to say this, and you have the right too. I said, Now there ain' ; t but one way of dealing with this, I said, ' ; cause righteousness determines that we try to follow Biblical standards. I said, Now, I think his name was Brother Jones, Now, Brother Jones if you have followed the Bible in this then we can deal with this. If you' ; ve thought about it, if you can tell us now that you have, see the Bible says if you have, know a brother with a fault, you go to the him and talk to him, between you and him, if not then you tell us. I said, now, have you done this to Brother Parker? Because if you did then Brother Parker can' ; t be a deacon. He said, Well, no, I ain' ; t said nothing to him. I said, Well we can' ; t deal with it that. Now Brother Parker, I don' ; t know you, it is said that, but you have an opportunity to straighten up. And that' ; s the way I did it, and folks saw that wisdom and they were just carried away, you know. It went on and moved on into it. I said, They have a knack -- it was out in the country you know, they have a knack of, timeliness is another thing. I think this was a good thing that I used in the Movement, I believe in time. I said, Alright, what time are we going to have service? I said, You set the time, now, but when you set it, be sure and be here ' ; cause I' ; m going to be here and we' ; re going to, and they had a knack, people have a knack of voting one thing and doing another. So, they said, What time are we starting at, what time is Sunday School hour? So okay. So ' ; bout the time for church, they wanted me to start Sunday school, so I had been in that Sunday morning, waiting, and so half of them come down the street, just about the time they were coming in the door I said, Let us stand: [singing] " ; Blest be the tie that binds--" ; (Laughter) They always came on time after that. HUNTLEY: Because they knew you were going to start. SHUTTLESWORTH: It' ; s an amazing thing if people would just... but you see I' ; m hard on myself, not just on other people, and I think you should sort of try to find the line. But went on, and I don' ; t guess I have time to tell you how we found out how much of a debt and why. But anyway, we went to the man with a hundred dollars and I was hoping to get him to give us a receipt off of the six thousand or whatever it was -- sixty-five hundred they owed, and this is in Selma now. And this old man owned the store, people come from miles around, he was about 80, and he was cussing me out and said I didn' ; t look like no damn preacher. HUNTLEY: Was this a Black man or white man? SHUTTLESWORTH: No, white man, an old white man owned the store, you know. Everybody come, this was the biggest thing in Selma - on Water Street as I recall near the L & ; N Station, and he said, No-- I had my little deacon with me, you know, and we had this hundred dollars, I was real proud, you know. HUNTLEY: Hundred dollars is big money. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. He said, No, preacher, I' ; m going to put hay in the damn building. He said, You ain' ; t the first preacher to come up here. He said these Negroes ain' ; t gonna do nothing but just keep telling lies, they supposed to done paid for that building. Then that' ; s when I learned how much -- it just didn' ; t cost but fifteen hundred dollars in ' ; 22, the year I was born. He said all that' ; s interest. So he was, he was really insulting. So, he called his son who was much older than I was. He said, Son, go bring me my so-and-so book. And he looked at it and he said, Now, he said, Reverend, now course these niggers ain' ; t gonna do nothing, said, But I' ; m gone give you a break. Said, you look like you' ; re a smart young man, but I' ; m telling you now, you ain' ; t the first preacher, they been coming here telling me all the time what they were gone do but I' ; m about ready to close the building up and put hay in it. I said, Well you can put hay in it, I said, but if you gave others a chance, I would hope you' ; d give me a chance. We' ; ll get it paid. And he said, Well -- looked at the book -- he said, Now tell the truth about it, all this mostly is interest. He said, I' ; ll tell you what I' ; m going to do, preacher, for you. I' ; m gone knock it off, it' ; s sixty-five hundred, I' ; m gone knock it back to forty-five hundred. I could have hugged that old man. I said, Would you give me a receipt on it for that? And so, I took a receipt back to the church for forty-four hundred dollars instead of sixty-five hundred. It was sort of a glorious thing, to them, you know. And we went on, and when I left there in ' ; 50 we had got it down to, what, thirty-nine hundred, something like that. No, it wasn' ; t that, I wasn' ; t out there but another year. But this shows you how a problem, now, I said okay, it' ; s a third Sunday church. I said, Well, let' ; s set the first Sunday since we owe this money, and I' ; m gonna give fifty cents and ask everybody to give fifty cents a month. Now some of those people weighed bales of cotton. One fellow weighed 15 bale one year, another one weighed, one fellow named Jack Pettaway, who, you had to drive right by his house to get to the church. House sat as close to the street as that wall, and one of his fields was right across in front of me, and at that time I' ; d go out and go to the field. Jack demonstrated to me one day he could shoot a rabbit' ; s eye out. He wouldn' ; t shoot him in the bed kicking, he said, he' ; d say he' ; s gone come around there, watch him, say, they always go around and come back where they come from. He said, I' ; m gone wait till he gets around there and I' ; m gone shoot him. And sure enough he shot that rabbit through the eye, didn' ; t even hit him in the body. He was a crack shot, and I had to drive right by his house everyday. He said, But I ain' ; t with the first Sunday, said, that' ; s St Luke' ; s day. I said, You don' ; t have nothing to do with St. Luke, that' ; s-- St. Luke was a Methodist church anyway. I said, You' ; re belong to Everdale, and you ought to, I said, Now, fifty cents ain' ; t gone hurt you. He said, Well I just ain' ; t with it. I said, Now, I don' ; t think you supposed to be in the church and say what you ain' ; t gone do when you can. And we were walking along the field, he was plowing, as I recall, that day, and I walked up two, three rows with him. I said, Well, now, Jack, why don' ; t you just try to understand that the church belongs to the Lord, and we' ; re all working together. I said, I don' ; t have anything. Said, last year, you made five bales of cotton, so at fifty cents-- He said, Yes, I can give it, but I just ain' ; t. I said, You realize you' ; re talking to the pastor of the church and you realize that you can' ; t stand up in a church and say what you ain' ; t gonna do. He said, Well I' ; m telling you, and you can do what you want to about it. He didn' ; t make no (?). I said, Well, Jack, you know, I said, Brother Pettaway, you know if you don' ; t give the fifty cents and you' ; re able, I' ; m gonna have to turn you out. He said, You do what you have to do. I' ; ve always been tested for courage. It' ; s an unusual thing. So, I said to him, Alright I hope you' ; ll think about it. Said, Pray over it, I said, I' ; ve always believe in prayer. He said, I do to, but I just ain' ; t with that. HUNTLEY: He still wasn' ; t with that, huh? SHUTTLESWORTH: We had another little fellow out there, white hat, called Bat Smith. And they had gotten together that they weren' ; t gone pay, it' ; s a little group of them. Always it' ; s amazing how Satan-- HUNTLEY: (Laughing) It' ; s always a group there. SHUTTLESWORTH: So it so happened, I' ; m going to school and had start taking classes at Montgomery, driving fifty miles, and at one time I needed some gas and I had asked the deacons for I think it was sixteen dollars, that was over a period of time, not just one time. And they had gotten word of that, that I had spent sixteen dollars, and so I guess that sort of helps them in their wrong and not doing. So, we had a September meeting, this was in September of 1949. We were doing well, now, from the year we had already gotten that debt down, we really moved. So, I called the annual meeting. I called the meeting and I said, Now we' ; re going have to get it straight, we' ; re gonna have to get it straight, we' ; re gonna check the roll and everything. I never will forget this little fellow. I said, Why don' ; t ya' ; ll come on in and let' ; s start. They were under the tree talking and smoking. They said, Y' ; all go ahead we' ; ll be in, in, in a minute. We' ; ll get it straight. I said, Okay. We started, but they didn' ; t know, and I didn' ; t think, and I was wasn' ; t thinking I had so much special about me. So when they came in, I said, We want to read the roll. Now this same Parker that had accused been drinking at first, he put out a rumor that he had heard that I had a baby at another church at the same the other church was giving me an anniversary, had to be around September or October, they were getting ready, yeah, September, and this was getting ready for October, making plans. In fact, we had the invitation from this church to go to that one. And so they came in the meeting, and I said, Now we have to insist that we do the best we can, if anybody here can' ; t pay the fifty cents, that' ; s not a problem, but if you can pay it and, I said, Now I have some brothers that said they weren' ; t going to pay it. I said, And we at Everdale are not responsible for St. Luke' ; s business. And I said, Now I have to say this to the church and this is the first thing we' ; ll do today, I said, I talked to Brother Pettaway, I came out just later on this week, we talked twice, I said, but this week I came back. We walked in the field, plowing, and I asked him to give the fifty cents and he told me he wouldn' ; t. And I said, Brother Pettaway is that a fact, did I go up and talk with you? Yeah, he said. I said, Did you tell me that you were not going to do it, you could but you wouldn' ; t? Yeah. I said, And I also told you that if you didn' ; t and can, and won' ; t, and tell the church you won' ; t, then I' ; d have to ask to turn you out, right? Yeah. I said, Well have you considered, have you prayed over it like I asked you? He said, I prayed but I still ain' ; t with it. (Laugh) This -- I hope this doesn' ; t sound trite. HUNTLEY: No, no. SHUTTLESWORTH: I said, Well you know I told you that if you say you won' ; t, and can, I have to ask the church to turn you out. He said, Yeah, and I told you to do what you have to do. I said, Well alright. So, you won' ; t do it. No. I said, I want a motion. So, they made the motion and I turned him out. Now he had sons old as I was. Remember this is the same fellow I got to drive right by his house. Shot a rabbit' ; s eye out in front of me, but I wasn' ; t worried about that. So, he was turned out. And I said, Now, you may be excused. Said, Don' ; t, don' ; t have him go. I said, No, he doesn' ; t have anything to do with the business now if he ain' ; t gone participate. So he went on out, and so Bat Smith who led the little group on the other, I said, Alright brother Smith, I understand you, oh yeah, we were going to do, we understand that you got sixteen dollars. I said, Are you saying I stole the sixteen dollars? No, but you spent the sixteen. I said, Well let' ; s get that straight, that may be nice, I said, ' ; cause that ain' ; t got nothing to do with your job, though, see, doing your duty. Well, if you pay it back we' ; ll be out. I said, Brother Smith, that had nothing to do with this. In fact, I don' ; t think I' ; m gonna pay it back, ' ; cause I didn' ; t steal anything, I asked the officers for it to get gas to go to school. I said, you ought to appreciate that. I said, But just to help you out, I don' ; t think I have to and I don' ; t think the folks want me to do that, folks kinda grumbling. I said, but let' ; s let the folks vote on it. If they say I' ; ll pay it back, I still have to decide whether I' ; ll pay it. I said, All those who want me to pay it back stand up. Nobody stood up. I said, All those who want to forget it, stand up. Everybody stood up, including him. HUNTLEY: Including him! SHUTTLESWORTH: I said, Alright, now, but, Bat, that means forget it. Now, secretary read the roll of what Brother Smith owes. He had to come up and pay up. HUNTLEY: He did come up and pay up? SHUTTLESWORTH: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Well this was (?), but that isn' ; t the worst thing I had-- churches are, but this was, I guess, part of my discipline. HUNTLEY: This is part of the preparation. SHUTTLESWORTH: Preparation. The worst situation I ever had was at First Baptist Selma before I got to Birmingham. And I must move on and tell you that. They had a minister at First Baptist, Grimmett, John Frank Grimmett, who -- I don' ; t know if he' ; s still alive, he teaches in Nashville -- but he was there. And you will remember that I told you J. D. Pritchard, he was superintendent of the Sunday School, a deacon and a trustee -- and sang in the choir. And he was real friendly, called me F. L., I called him J. D., you know. And so, this pastor had become involved with some woman or something, and he would stand up in the pulpit and fussed, just, it was terrible. So finally, he left in, what was it, October ' ; 49. I' ; m still at my two churches. You must remember I' ; m going to school in Montgomery, I' ; m working and different, oh, and I was getting so tense, but I still stayed in church. So the deacons at First Baptist -- and I worked for one of the deacons, the only Black plumber, named Ben Harrison, under the plumbing, doing all of that stuff. Wrench would slip, he' ; d cuss, he didn' ; t think nothing about it ' ; cause he never thought I' ; d be his pastor. And he, Pritchard and Dr. Brown, who was a pharmacist, the only Black pharmacist in Selma, they were the three people who had to do everything, and they did some ungodly things, the church didn' ; t have nothing to do with it, so I guess God had me going through that as a training. So, but they liked me at the church so that one morning -- Grimmett suddenly left the church -- I went to Sunday school, getting ready to go to my other church about one o' ; clock. They said, We want to see you after church -- the deacons. I said, Okay, but I' ; ve got to go. So when they, Pritchard said, Well, Reverend, you' ; ve got a good message and people here kind of like you and we think you can be a help to us and we can give help to you. I said, In what way? And Ben Harris, I never will forget him, Ben' ; s veins, just normally, would stretch along his temple like rope, just stand out very-- an old man but he was nice old person, he was kind of mean, and he took over and he said, Well, what we' ; d like for you to do is set your service back an hour and preach for us and we' ; ll give you ten dollars -- didn' ; t ask him -- and we' ; ll give you ten dollars. Well, ten dollars to me then was like a hundred, hundred-fifty, now. So I didn' ; t say anything, I said, Well okay I can do that. And I knew that other churches would agree. And I had straightened that first church out, and that second church, Mt. Zion, [inaudible] was a family church, out of the seventy-something folks, fifty-eight of them were family members, the great-grandfather, the grandfather, the grandson -- generations. I can deal with this real quick. When I went there I said, This is a family church. Yeah. Okay. Second and fourth Sunday. I said, Now church is supposed to be God' ; s family. I' ; ve always been able to frame it in a way that it' ; s scriptural. And there was an old man, hair white as snow, I said, Brother English -- four generations were in that church -- I said, Now this family' ; s your blood, right? Yeah. I said, Well, here' ; s the way we deal in the church. Your blood is corrupt. The blood of Christ is the blood we' ; re goin' ; in. (Laughing.) HUNTLEY: It' ; s Christ' ; s church? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yea, I said, It' ; s Christ' ; s church so that means I won' ; t deal with you as a family. I deal with you as members of God' ; s kingdom. Understand that. So, it went on, it was pretty nice. This is Mt. Zion, Potters Station. That' ; s only thing I ever had to straighten out there, so maybe if I got eight dollars, I thought that was good. So, I called myself-- and they were-- whatever they gave the preacher they were cutting out of it for to pay the lights and things. So, I said to them, well now let' ; s do this. What you want to give for lights and the expenses of the church, do that, what it' ; s wrong for them to cut out of what you give to me. So I said, Well, give a quarter one Sunday for the church and then what you give me they won' ; t have to cut out of it. I said then the next thing, and the deacon, see he had his family on one ward, and you know, I said, we' ; re gone read the ward off so I can hear it ' ; cause they wasn' ; t reporting too much. So next Sunday everybody' ; s gone read the list, the ward lead. My good friend Stuart which figures promptly in at First Baptist, as I' ; ll tell you a little later, he had a church named St. Paul. He had a deacon over there would stand up and just head-to-head with him in the church, you know, and I told him I thought, I said Stuart, he has no reason of doing that to you in the church. Stuart was a nice little person. So that same Sunday that I had told them to read the names, he happened to be in our church. And we didn' ; t have on the board but -- John Praytor was a nice person, the English' ; s, and we had a tall kind of light-skinned fellow named Jones. And I had preached -- we had a good service -- and had sat down. SHUTTLESWORTH: I said, Brother Jones, do you understand last Sunday, two weeks ago, now, that we were gone read today? Yeah. I said, Well, you didn' ; t say a word to me about it, you just gone announce that? You can' ; t do that. I said, Sit down and I' ; ll call the roll. (Laughing.) So, he sat down. And the old man was friendly, the granddad. And this was beautiful. I never had no more problems. I said, Alright, well, call the roll. Class number one! Brother English! And English got up and he-- it was so beautiful, as he may would have, and so and so, and so and so [sing-song voice], said, And so and so, but he didn' ; t have it written out. And I said, Oh, you wasn' ; t gonna-- you didn' ; t have it written out, did you? I act like I' ; m mad. I was so tickled I didn' ; t know what to do. He said, Well, no I don' ; t have it today, Brother Pastor. You decided you wasn' ; t gonna do what I asked you to do. I' ; m acting like I' ; m mad, I wasn' ; t. He said, Well, no, we' ; ll have it next time, I' ; ll have it next time, I promise, I' ; m sorry. I said okay, just make your report. Now his son was the next one. I said, Alright, number two. (Laughing) He said, I' ; m sorry, Brother Pastor, I don' ; t have... I said, Oh, y' ; all got together on this thing. I said, I don' ; t know, I don' ; t want to have to be the whole deacon board, but now we' ; re gone have to follow some directions around here. Just as tickled as I could be inside. I said you don' ; t have yours written out? I said, Have it written out next Sunday. Then his grandson, next, his son, Well I don' ; t have mine either. I said Alright, just tell me what you got tell me, said but don' ; t come up next Sunday without them. And so that was all. They did real well and I had no more trouble at that church. Beautiful. Beautiful. Had no trouble with none of that church. So, I' ; m at First Baptist now. HUNTLEY: This the big church. SHUTTLESWORTH: This preacher left it, so I' ; m preaching there from October til May. And First Baptist Church, they didn' ; t shout, you know, but I was a young man and I was doing what I-- doing the best I could. And they started shoutin' ; now and then. And most time I' ; d leave them shouting, I' ; d have my back, going down the aisle, and be at my church next thirty minutes, either one of them was that close. And so, we, they had sent out and got oh, at least eight or ten preachers during that time to come and speak. But somehow or another, at May, when they decided to call, it was set that they would call me. And I had no concern about it, never asked anybody. So then, so we decided, they decided to call me. Well now here is where you get into these problems within these churches. These three men, and four was a man, tall fellow named Lawrence Danzy who had a real light-skinned girl, he was dark, tall. He put his hand on his knee and his fingers would come down a third of his leg, real long, real (inaudible). But he was the people who the others would put him up to say what he-- he was the man, you know. And now, remember, as we got there this church, old historic steeple seventy-five feet in the air, history, but dying on the vine. So, I had gotten the mission organizers, four or five circles were working, and women and young people, BTU and so forth, going to school, and really working myself to death not knowing, becoming almost nervous because I had worked both the other churches and now this one. And still in school, so these deacons had somehow or another had got up that the pastor would preside over the church meeting and the chairman of the deacon board, who was Dr. Brown, would preside over the deacons' ; meeting, which means those three people do what they want them to do. And I' ; m sitting in the chair, it' ; s as if I' ; m rubber-stamping it and I told them I didn' ; t think that was right. Pritchard said, Well, you know, you have to (inaudible) here' ; s Stewart, Rev. Stewart (inaudible). Brian, tell F. L. -- the hardwood floors began to be popular in that area in ' ; 50, ' ; 52 -- go down there and tell F. L. that he ain' ; t got nothing to do but stay on them hardwood floors, we' ; re gone take care of it. So, Stewart brought that message to me. I said, Go back and tell J. D. that I can' ; t eat hardwood floors. This is just how the Lord does it. And so, and later on, and he said to me, incidentally, shortly after I got there, F. L., now you' ; re First Baptist' ; s pastor, you don' ; t have to fool around with these little Negroes like Stewart and others, you' ; re a big Negro now, you don' ; t need these little Negroes. I said, Now, J. D. -- don' ; t have to fool with these little Negroes he said -- I said, J. D., God must love little niggers, he made many more of them than he did us, as big niggers. And I said, I don' ; t change, a person doesn' ; t have to be a big person to be a friend of mine. So, he didn' ; t say no more. I said, Now I don' ; t let anybody tell me what to say and how to do. Well, you better get with us, ' ; cause we-- I said, No, you get with me, now. They had, in the short, let me see if I can sum this up, they had either aggregated to themselves, or -- they said the church had done it but it wasn' ; t as you' ; ll see a little bit later -- that the deacons and pastor, or rather the deacons because, see, the pastor didn' ; t do anything but rubber-stamp. The deacons could do anything they wanted to do and didn' ; t have to make a report to the church. Baptist church. (inaudible, could be " ; in which the power in the pulpit" ; ) And worse than that, it' ; s just only those three, or four, that was making all the decisions. HUNTLEY: They had control didn' ; t they? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. He superintendent of Sunday School, blah, blah, blah. So okay. I remember going to St. Louis, to, yeah, to a convention. When I got back, Pritchard said to me -- this is how things go -- F. L. -- and did you notice now you go to Selma, they built parking right up almost against the church, so the church had a lot in there. And, F. L. -- he just reported to me like one Sunday morning -- F. L., State had to take that property out there so me and Ben and Brown told them to go ahead and take it. I said, Who did that? Me and Ben and Brown, said nothing else we could do but take it. I said, If you can' ; t help but take it, I said the church ought to take it. He thought that was the worst thing in the world. He said No. And so, Ben said to me, Ben Harris -- tough one -- you ain' ; t got no business bringing no business before them. I said but they put you up in the honor here, you supposed to teach them here, they don' ; t know till you teach them. And they just got (inaudible, could be: " ; heartless mad at me" ; ) for bringing things to the church and letting the church do it. So, it so happened that the Lord would deal with things. I don' ; t think that we do so much, we just have to stand where we' ; re supposed to stand, the Lord will work things out. I had gotten another woman to be the missions president, and she had five circles, more than ever had in a long time. And we were coming up now to -- see this is ' ; 51, I left at the end of ' ; 52 -- but, it, and Ben Harris being the only plumber, they had built this parsonage, had put the water in, put the gas in, all he did without any bids at all and didn' ; t say nothing to the church, so you' ; d hear folks say, yeah, folks say preacher and deacons stealing the money. Well you know I' ; m not going to get into that. So, at First Baptist they had a couple of outhouses for toilets, you go down the steps and on that side, the women on the other side. And that old fixture was so bad till if you used it, pulled the chain, you had to run outside to put your clothes up, men and women. So, I said to them, Brethren, this is wrong. We ought to put those toilets inside where they need to be. Basically, the church is higher than the ceiling so you could just put it inside. So, they agreed. I said, Well alright, now let' ; s get estimates on the toilets. Pritchard said, No we don' ; t need none, let Ben do it. I said, I favor Brother Harris doing it, even if his bid is higher ' ; cause he' ; s a Black, Negro, plumber, I said but we should get bids. And they thought I was the worst thing in the world for insisting. HUNTLEY: A change. SHUTTLESWORTH: It was terrible. So, they never forgave me for that. I said, Alright (handclap) but we gone get bids. Said we won' ; t do it. And the church had already voted for it, so I' ; ll have to say to the church we' ; ll get bids. Well, you don' ; t have-- just let us-- I said, No, sir. So, guess what they did. They said, Well, alright we' ; ll get bids. But Ben had to get on the bidding committee, so he' ; d see everybody else' ; s bids. HUNTLEY: (Laughing) And then he' ; d make his bid, huh? SHUTTLESWORTH: Alright so when the bids came in, Ben' ; s bid was seven dollars less than the other two bids. Seven dollars. I said, Well, Brethren, this isn' ; t the problem. The problem is that you all just insisted that the church had nothing to do with the bid, to get them in the first place. HUNTLEY: Was he on the committee? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. Yeah. So, I said, Naturally Brother Harris is going to do it. I said, I told you that at first, but the idea of getting the bids is so the church would know that it costs what you say it costs. And they thought I was just the-- Alright, so the crisis is coming. The crisis is coming. But God' ; s getting me ready for the Civil Rights Movement. J. D. when he was -- we were good friends you know -- when he was fine he' ; d call me F. L., and in church he' ; d shout like a woman sometimes. He' ; d get mad he' ; d set up just like this here, and I said-- And so, I announced in church one Sunday that we were not gone have board meeting. He sat right behind me, great big old (inaudible, could be: " ; auburn" ; ), you know, and he was right behind. Wasn' ; t time for it to be? I said I just announced that we won' ; t have it. I said because I don' ; t think I should be sitting in the chair and you all doing the business of the church and I ain' ; t got nothing to say, I' ; m not that kind. Well-- I said, well, you can' ; t call the meeting, can you? I say I just announced that we won' ; t have it so that finishes that. That' ; s the first time he' ; d ever had that happen. So, I didn' ; t have the meeting for a while. It so happened in August of that year -- it' ; s amazing how you remember things -- the women had raised some money to go to Birmingham. They didn' ; t mind, they gone provide and bring the money to them so they could count it, just, as deacons, as authority. She said to me, said, Well, Reverend, they won' ; t even turn in reports when they go out and collect for the money. She said, I ain' ; t gone turn in nothing. And so, I said, Well, I don' ; t want no trouble. She said, Well, you got it. She said, These people are doing their best now to destroy you and you better let us work with you. Well, I have never thought of dividing people, pitting them together. To me that' ; s offensive in a church. Her name was Nora (inaudible). I said, Well, Nora, let me-- let me-- I said, I' ; ll tell you what you do. I said, Why don' ; t you just go ahead and turn it in? She said, No, she said if you order me to turn it in, I' ; ll turn it in. But if you don' ; t order me to turn it in, I ain' ; t turning it in, I ain' ; t studying those niggers, that was her words. I said, I don' ; t want no trouble, she say, You got it. She said, They' ; re doing their best now to destroy you. They don' ; t want-- they' ; re talking about the work-- Now see they knew more about it than I did. And so, said, Pritchard already done talking about voting you out of the church. I said, Well, I' ; ll tell you what you do, let me go home and pray over it. I say this now when I have to think about something. I said let me pray over it. She said, Well you pray over it but I' ; ve told you what I' ; m gone do. She said, You tell me Sunday to turn it in and I' ; ll do it, but if you don' ; t I ain' ; t gone do it. As the Lord would have it, Pritchard sent Stewart back around to my house. Stewart, go around there and tell F. L make them women turn that money in -- just like that! HUNTLEY: (laughing) That was it, huh? SHUTTLESWORTH: So, when he sent Stewart around there, Stewart said, I didn' ; t want to do it but Pritchard told me to come out there and I told him I' ; d do it. I said, go back and tell J. D. I said go to hell. He said, Well, tell you the truth, Fred, now, he knows, blah, blah-- I said, Stewart, this is not St. Paul where you let this brother go up and-- I said, this isn' ; t St. Paul. He said, Well, to tell you the truth about it, now you know you do live on them hardwood floors, and they pay you a hundred and eighty dollars a month. As the Lord would have it, the assistant superintendent was a Black woman, she belonged to that church and she gave me a job making two hundred and fifty dollars a month, so I' ; m making two fifty plus that one eighty they were paying, believe it was a hundred and eighty or a hundred and eighty or two -- whatever it was. And they just thought, man, that that was just too much money for me, they couldn' ; t control me, you know. So, they were really getting it together and I had stopped the meetings. Then before I had stopped the board meetings , the parsonage was on almost an acre of ground, beautiful little house, and they wouldn' ; t cut the grass, wanted me to cut it, so I told them I said, Well, no, in the board meeting, the last one I attended before-- I said, well, give me ten dollars for this. They said, well, we don' ; t cut the grass. I said, Who' ; s supposed to cut it? Well, you live-- I said, Yeah, but I ain' ; t gone cut the grass. So, I just quit cutting the grass, let it grow up around it, had a little path to go up to a beautiful house. And so, I did say one Sunday morning, I think I' ; m going to have to ask the church to cut the grass around there. Well, they didn' ; t want that you know. So, Brian said, Well, we, we, we' ; ll give you ten dollars this time. I said, No, don' ; t give me ten. Well, we' ; ll cut it this time. I said, No, not this time, just cut it. And cut it the next time. HUNTLEY: Regularly. SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. Well, all of this, they were just backing up, you know. So then finally, to make it to a head, now, I realize I' ; m talking too long on this, but this is... HUNTLEY: No, no, no. SHUTTLESWORTH: When this woman didn' ; t turn the money in and he sent round there, the fat was in the fire. As the Lord would have it, I had to go down to Camden to do a revival in the Presbyterian church, a fellow, we were friends, and that week I got a chance to think, during the day you know, preach at night, and it was good for me. And so, when I came back home that Saturday morning I went on to Selma University, and I was coming back walking by Pritchard' ; s shop and he' ; s in there just doing his work you know. And it looked like to me something said, Go in there and let him know that he' ; s not God. And I walked in there and I said to him -- he was shocked to see me ' ; cause he' ; d been talking about me, know he was mad. F. L., I didn' ; t expect to see you here. I said, I know you didn' ; t. Said, but I came by to tell you this morning that I have observed you as being a person who as much devil as is much angel. I said, Now you can shout like a woman and curse like a sailor. I said, You want to speak for me and through me but I' ; m not to do your work. I said, Now, I really came by to tell you that I don' ; t need you to speak for me and when I make a determination, I' ; m supposed to do what I think God wants me to do. And I finally came by to tell you to go to hell. And walked out. He was shocked. I knew the fat was in the fire. So, Nora called me and asked me did I want her to turn-- and I said, No, to hold it for a while, see what happens. And so, when I did call a meeting, after all this, that, the plumbing, all this other stuff. I had one little fellow who really thought the world and all of me. And they had gotten to this fellow and he was so fired up till, so when we had the meeting it was almost a cheerleading squad. " ; We don' ; t have no preacher runnin' ; this church (inaudible)! NO! Ain' ; t gone have no women runnin' ; this church! NO!" ; I was shocked you know. And so, this little fellow, he said it two or three time and this fellow said, Shout NO, goddammit! I said, uh, oh, that' ; s enough now. I say that means the church has to take charge of this now. Pritchard, what you mean, you gone bring that-- I said, Yes, sir, church has to decide on, I said this is the church business, you know. I said, And I told you to start off with, and they want to tell me I couldn' ; t bring something to the church. Well, when you gone bring-- I said, Whenever I get ready. Well, we don' ; t have no-- I said, We have when I get ready, that' ; s all. So, Pritchard and them really go to running around now. Remember I lived in a little house back of Selma University, and I had to come up a little alley. Joe Cribb, bald-headed guy, no teeth, had a (inaudible), but he loved me and my wife. And he knew what time I come out going to Sunday School. And you could look straight down the road and see dust fly half a mile, streets weren' ; t paved then. So, Joe was standing out there when I came out, he had his handkerchief waving me down, had tears in his eyes. He said, Reverend -- and Pritchard had put it out -- he said, I know how you' ; re feeling and, God, I admire you, said but if you can see your way not to bring that up today I' ; d appreciate it. I said, No, Joe, it ain' ; t your business. He said, Well it' ; s my business because I love you and your wife, I think you' ; re a God-sent man, said, but those people have killed so many preachers at First Baptist. He said, See that (inaudible), say, that' ; s Pritchard' ; s, I just left him, said Pritchard said to me that if you bring that up today, you done preached your last sermon today. I said, Well I' ; m on my way now to preach my last sermon. Incidentally, that same meeting where they had all this squad, Lawrence Danzy, the one I told you about his fingers so long, he sat there, and before he got into this other thing, Pritchard said, Yeah, people say you' ; re part-time preacher, full-time pay, talking about my teaching. I said, Are you talking about my teaching school? Yeah, but that what the folks say, I said, I don' ; t remember appointing any committee to find out what the folks say, I say, ain' ; t nobody said nothing to me but you about this. I said, what you want me to do, babysit you? Y' ; all grown folks. I said, I don' ; t know whether I sat all the time with you, you' ; d be that much more holy. Well, that' ; s what folks saying. He sat there with his hands on his knees, I never will forget, and I looked at him and I remembered that Scripture. He said, You gone quit teaching or else. I said, How did you say that, Danzy? He said, I said, You gone quit teaching or else. I said, You just gave me my answer. Dr. Brown, well, well, what' ; s, what' ; s, what' ; s your answer, Brother Pastor, what? Pritchard too, Yeah, what is your answer? I said, I' ; ll take the else, whatever the else is. Dr. Brown said, well, what does that mean? That means that I' ; m gone get in the boat with the Lord and we both gone sail right down the middle of the river. If God has gotten so weak as to let little people like you get strong enough to sink the boat, then God' ; s going out of business and I' ; ll go out with Him. I said, But I don' ; t think you can. I said, that means that I' ; m going to take the else. I' ; m not going to stop teaching. That' ; s what it means. I said, Besides, I' ; m ready to go home this week. They were just, ooh, they were-- So that Sunday morning -- history. HUNTLEY: Now is the church splitting on this issue? SHUTTLESWORTH: No, it ain' ; t split, it' ; s not split. HUNTLEY: It' ; s just those individuals. SHUTTLESWORTH: Those deacons. And three or four preachers before me, some of them had never preached any more since they left that church so disgusted. So that Sunday morning, I got up and preached. Hindsight now, I' ; d do that before I preached, but anyway I preached and had a good service. And so, I said, they were all sitting together on this long bench, church is kind of curved, they were on this bench on this side. And I said, after I got through preaching, nearly ' ; bout time to go, I said, There comes a time when a man must decide whether he' ; s a man or mouse. And boy you should have seen their faces, crestfallen. I said, The church has to decide the relationship in this church between deacons and pastor, and what is the authority, whether the church has the authority, whether I have the authority to at least give directions and expect cooperation. Well, yeah! That' ; s what you' ; re here for! (inaudible) So I had an old preacher named Alexander whose wife like this, she played the organ, and when she played the organ it could make you almost get up off your seat. But he said to me, he said, Son, call you a conference. That' ; s what he said, Son, call you a conference. I said, Alright, alright, we don' ; t need to settle it now. I said, Meet out here Wednesday night. Meet Wednesday night at seven o' ; clock. I' ; m expecting everybody. Now this is a point of history. The same day that Carl Erskine struck out fifteen Yankees in the World Series, I sat on the side of my car, ' ; 35 V8, in Montgomery (inaudible), writing down my recommendations to the church. The first thing was that all authority in the church be in the body and no boards. Second thing was that the pastor of the church preside over all of the business meetings, the board and everything else. Third thing was money. But any rate, so we met that night, it was tremendous. HUNTLEY: Church packed? SHUTTLESWORTH: The church didn' ; t have enough members to fill it, but I think there were some folks who weren' ; t members. So, they were all sitting on this thing, just like that Sunday morning. I said, Now, it' ; s unfortunate that this happened, I said, but I cannot and will not play with a church. I will not be in charge of something that' ; s going wrong and not being done right. And as I had said in the pulpit that morning, I said, from the top of my head to the sole of my feet I' ; m all man, there' ; s nothing mousy about me. And I said, I told you that Sunday. I said, now the church has to decide tonight the relationship, who is to be the pastor, what is the pastor' ; s duty if you want to define it. I said, But it can' ; t go any further like this. I don' ; t know why God sent me to First Baptist. I have no idea. I was satisfied with my two rural churches, I was doing well. And I was. My level of understanding at that time was -- and you know teachers were getting a C certificate at that time, they could teach. Teachers would come to Selma University to work on that C certificate. If I had two little churches and could get a C certificate and teach, I was alright anyway, I was teaching. HUNTLEY: Where were you teaching? SHUTTLESWORTH: Uh-- Emanuel School, right below Selma about thirty miles. HUNTLEY: High school? SHUTTLESWORTH: Yeah. High school. And so, everybody was there. And I said, I' ; m not for argument, but it has come to a point where I just won' ; t go any farther. I said, I don' ; t have to have a church. So, folks said, Well you tell us what you want. I said, Alright, I said, Now, number one, Pri-- the deacons say -- I didn' ; t call no name -- that you all have voted somewhere down the line that all authority goes to the deacons and trustees and they can do what they want to do and don' ; t have to make a report. Oh, no! Whoever said that --- Pritchard said, Oh no-- (mimics shouting) Y' ; all said so-and-so-- Nooo, we ain' ; t done nothin' ; ! I said, No argument, don' ; t have to argue. My recommendation is that all authority, final authority, over me and everybody else, be in the body. I say, I want a motion. Unanimous. I said, The next thing is that the pastor of the church preside over all business of this church. I said I sit in the chair like a kid, the board doing what they want to do. They said, We thought-- Pritchard said, (mimics shouting) -- preside over church meeting, deacons-- I said, Nope, nope, I said, no, hold it, they voted that. Next thing, I said, I split the deacons from the trustees. I said, whenever things get to where one man has to do everything it' ; s the wrong. So, I said, The deacons be deacons and the trustees be trustees. That was number three. Number four was, The pastor of the church be authorized to either sign or countersign all checks, cause that' ; s where the power is. We thought you signed! I said, No, Dr. Brown signed. Who told you to sign checks, Dr. Brown? I said, No, uh-uh, let' ; s vote this. I said, because this was either I' ; ll sign, or I will tell who signs what to sign. That way I will at least administer it. That was, what four things? Fifth one was, as I recall, that ward leaders be required, or be replaced, to turn in their records and so forth. ' ; Cause see I had just printed a partial list of people hanging with them and me too. And it was seven or eight, it was eight things I think, but that' ; s about five or six, I don' ; t remember all of them-- This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
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Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth (1996) (1 of 5)
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Rev. Fred L. Shuttlesworth discusses leading the Birmingham Movement. Part 1 of 5.
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19961210S1
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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1996-12-10
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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Lawrence Pijeaux
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New Orleans (La.)
Art Education
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5.4 June 11, 1997 Dr. Lawrence Pijeaux (1997) 19970611P 1:07:50 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham African American Museum Association Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) New Orleans (La.) Art Education Lawrence Pijeaux Horace Huntley Video 1:|15(3)|35(2)|47(6)|63(5)|75(1)|94(3)|112(12)|122(5)|137(4)|149(9)|172(2)|184(15)|200(15)|220(4)|235(3)|257(2)|270(10)|283(12)|301(3)|322(14)|339(5)|357(11)|376(8)|398(13)|421(12)|431(11)|447(5)|460(11)|471(5)|482(2)|494(3)|505(12)|518(5)|536(1)|543(4)|554(5)|569(14)|583(2)|591(8)|606(9)|620(13)|633(14)|646(15)|658(2)|678(10)|696(1)|700(14)|717(2)|727(2)|739(9)|751(8)|762(2)|772(6)|783(8)|795(2)|803(6)|814(6)|827(5)|837(6)|846(14)|858(2)|868(15)|878(2)|890(4)|906(8)|919(5)|931(1) 0 https://youtu.be/TbpXKIKFDKE YouTube video English 0 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Dr. Lawrence J. Pijeaux, the Executive Director of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Dr. Lawrence Pijeaux is introduced African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 44 Family Background Where are you from? Pijeaux states that he was born in New Orleans, Louisiana to a working-class Creole family with his parents and two younger siblings. Louisiana Creole language ; New Orleans (La.) ; Working class--United States--History--20th century African American families 380 Educational Background Tell me just a bit about your elementary school days. Pijeaux describes his time at all-black elementary and high schools, where he was encouraged by several authority figures to pursue higher education. He also recalls how he would receive insults and racial slurs while he rode the bus to school. Segregation in education--United States McCarty Elementary School (New Orleans, La.) ; McDonogh 35 Senior High School (New Orleans, La.) 843 Boycotts & ; Segregation in New Orleans I was involved cause our university was involved in some demonstrations. Pijeaux states that the types of demonstrations that were happening in Birmingham were also taking place in New Orleans, which included selected buying strategies and sit-ins. He also recounts the times of sitting in segregated sections of the bus and in movie theaters. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; New Orleans (La.) ; Segregation in transportation ; Selected Buying Campaign Boycotts ; Segregation 1081 College Experiences Why did you make the decision to go to Southern New Orleans? Pijeaux details how he began his college education at Southern University in New Orleans before transferring to Grambling State University. He then dropped out of Grambling, spent time traveling and as a professional waiter and bus driver before returning to college and becoming a teacher. Buchanan, Junious ; Bus drivers ; Food service employees ; Harris, James Larnell ; Jones, James C. ; Reed, Willis, 1942- ; Southern University in New Orleans African American college students ; Grambling State University 1570 Teaching Through Desegregation That was my first goal to give something back to the community. To return as a teacher. Pijeaux explains how he came to be a middle school art teacher at a school undergoing desegregation. Art teachers ; Busing for school integration African American educators ; School integration--United States 1852 Color & ; Class Consciousness Some people ask the question weather your Creole background assisted you in any way, or in New Orleans, Creole was either Black or White just like any place else? Pijeaux expresses that in New Orleans, the perception of race was divided into binary categories of Black and white. Pijeaux also describes the stark differences of the perception of class in the school that he attended versus the school at which he taught. Esplande (New Orleans, La.) ; Rampart Street (New Orleans, La.) ; Suburbs--United States ; White flight America--Race relations ; Class consciousness 2187 Becoming a Principal & ; Receiving His Doctorate Now you stayed in education and you became a principal in New Orleans. Pijeaux describes the various schools in which he taught, including Southern University in New Orleans, Eleanor McMain Secondary School. He became Assistant Principal and later Principal at McMain while also working on his Doctorate from the University of Southern Mississippi. He discusses major topics of his goals to effectively improve the conditions in public education. Assistant school principals ; Eleanor McMain Secondary School (New Orleans, La.) ; Southern University in New Orleans African American school principals ; Doctoral students 2813 Working in New Jersey & ; the Indianapolis Museum of Art You go from a southern city inner school system to an eastern city in New Jersey. What are the differences and similarities in terms of schools? Pijeaux contrasts the schools in New Orleans and New Jersey. He remarks that he experienced more segregation & ; issues in the two and a half years he spent teaching in New Jersey than he did in the South. He then moved to Indianapolis and began working for the Indianapolis Museum of Art. Indianapolis (Ind.) ; New Jersey African American art museum curators ; Indianapolis Museum of Art ; Segregation in education--United States 3091 Perspectives on the American Educational System Before we get too far in the field you are presently involved in as an educator, what happened with the education you've seen in the South, you saw it in the East during the period of time when we were in school during our generation. Pijeaux reflects on how the educational system has changed in the past twenty to thirty years due to lower expectations for the younger generations. He states that the root of many issues in educational systems starts at the board level, which ideally should prioritize education, and that the attitudes in these areas affect all the administrations and the quality of education as a whole. School boards--United States African American children--Education ; Critical issues in the future of learning and teaching 3369 The African American Museum Association & ; the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute You would somehow find out about a position in Birmingham, Alabama. Pijeaux details becoming a council member of the African American Museum Association and then the Executive Director of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. He emphasizes the importance of the Black community to be involved in the museum field. AAMA ; Indianapolis Museum of Art African American Museum Association ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 3878 Contributions to the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute What do you view is your major contribution since you've been here? Pijeaux states that his biggest contribution to the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute was bringing organization to the overall structure and functions of the Institute. Graves, Earl G., 1935- Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Contributions in critical museology and material culture 4056 Conclusion of the Interview Conclusion of Interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history interview Oral History Dr. Lawrence Pijeaux discusses demonstrating in New Orleans before pursuing a career in arts education. He served at various institutions, including the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute, and worked to increase Black community involvement in museums. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Dr. Lawrence J. Pijeaux, the Executive Director of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. I' ; m Dr. Horace Huntley presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is June 11, 1997. Dr. Pijeaux, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to sit and talk with me this morning. Basically what we' ; re doing is just trying to develop some brief biographies and you being the Executive Director of the Institute, you' ; re one of the first persons we really need to look at in this regard. So, we' ; ll talk about you and your background. Where are you from? PIJEAUX: I' ; m from New Orleans, Louisiana. HUNTLEY: New Orleans , Louisiana. Your parents, were they originally from New Orleans? PIJEAUX: Yes, both of my parents are from New Orleans. From different sections of the city. HUNTLEY: Ok. PIJEAUX: My mother is from an area that would be considered, I think now it' ; s called Six Ward. New Orleans is divided up into Wards and the wards is geographic in nature. Just like you have north, south, east and west. Here in New Orleans you have third ward, fourth ward, sixth ward, seventh ward. My mother was from the sixth ward which was primarily located in downtown New Orleans. My dad is 0riginally from the seventh ward which is basically south west. It' ; s adjacent to sixth ward, southwest of downtown. HUNTLEY: So, both of them were born in New Orleans, in the city? PIJEAUX: Yes, yes, that' ; s right. HUNTLEY: Were their parents from New Orleans as well? PIJEAUX: Yes. My grandparents lived long enough for me to get to know them. I think one of the things you need to know about my family is that they are a mixture of Creoles. Creoles I guess what would be called multi-cultural today. It' ; s a mixture of French and African American. HUNTLEY: Pijeaux? What is the name Pijeaux, is that French? PIJEAUX: It' ; s a French name. Yes, it really is. As I was explaining with this whole Creole background that I b1ing. My father is a very fair skin person and all of his family members are. More often I know when people think of Creoles they think of light skinned people, but they don' ; t realize that they are a mixture of people, some are light skinned, some are dark skinned. My mother' ; s family, they are dark skinned Creoles but the one thing they had in common was the language. Unfortunately, that' ; s something that wasn' ; t passed on to my generation, but I have these vivid memories of my grandmothers' ; --both my dad' ; s mother and my mother' ; s mother--speaking Creole. Which is a form of broken French. HUNTLEY: Would that be similar to ebonies? PIJEAUX: (Laughing) Yes, right. I find it interesting that when we talk about ebonies that our people have been bilingual since we first came to this country. That' ; s nothing to be ashamed of. We had to find a way to communicate among our own because we came here in a situation where we were stripped of our language. We came with many languages. HUNTLEY: So, we developed a language that would be suitable somewhere in between one and the other. PIJEAUX: It was a language that we all became very familiar with and more often or that all of us have grown up with some form of what' ; s now called ebonies. HUNTLEY: Absolutely. You know the New Orleans thing is very fascinating to me being from Birmingham. I see just the city itself, the layout of the city and it' ; s an old city. Can you just talk about New Orleans, the early days in New Orleans? Before you do that let me ask you though about your parents. The education level of your father and your mother. Did they finish high school? PIJEAUX: No, neither of them finished high school. I guess they were probably what' ; s called middle school drop outs if you would. Both of them dropped out either in seventh or eighth grade, trying to find a way to survive in this cruel country we lived in. HUNTLEY: Do you have siblings? PIJEAUX: Yes, I have two sisters who are both younger than I. One of the things that was, not unique in my family, but I think c01m11on to us as a people of my generation and that is education was always important. I remember as my sisters and I went to high school and beyond it was always important to our parents that we did well, that we did our homework even though they couldn' ; t determine whether or not what we did was right, they know we had done something. They made an assumption that it was " ; A-OK" ; but the bottom line is that we had to do homework every night. HUNTLEY: Absolutely. What type of work did your parents do? PIJEAUX: My mother was a housewife for the most part and my dad was many things including porier, bus driver, not bus driver, truck driver, but basically what would be called a laborer, a common laborer. HUNTLEY: The area of New Orleans that you grew up in what area was it? PIJEAUX: The ninth ward, which was the southern part of the city. A very poor section of the city, most of the people that lived in that area were like my parents. HUNTLEY: Working class community. PIJEAUX: Yeah, very much so. HUNTLEY: Tell me just a bit about your elementary school days. What elementary school did you start? PIJEAUX: I attended McCarty Elementary School, all black. All black elementary school. Academics was always important at the school, always important. I remember growing up, not only in elementary school but junior high and senior high, I was a product of a segregated school system. In many ways I think I' ; m ahead of the game in terms of education because education was always a high priority. I remember all of my teachers telling me that you have to be better than everybody else if you' ; re going to succeed in this world. So, my teachers, in particular there was a gentleman, Mr. Lewis, I remember very vividly and I have fond memories of this guy ; for some reason he liked me. He saw something in me, he always encouraged me to do well in school. Even as I became an adult our paths crossed frequently when I moved into public education returning to the school system that I had graduated from this guy was an assistant principal and he encouraged me to return to school and get an advanced degree and ultimately he became a peer of mine. We were principals at the same period of time in New Orleans. It was him, then there was another guy that I met in high school, who again is a black male, who saw something in me and encouraged me to go on into school. This guy, Daniel McLean, who I met when I was in high school encouraged me to pursue mt as a career. So, that' ; s what got me into the visual mis. HUNTLEY: Were you involved in any extracurricular activities in high school? PIJEAUX: Yes, I played in high school I played basketball. In junior high I played in several sports. I participated in several sports including football and basketball, but when I moved to high school I was really interested in art and I sang in the choir and then I played basketball. HUNTLEY: So, you were somewhat of a renaissance man in term of high school, in terms of sports, art and you were a good student as well. You had basically--you suggested that you had- a person or persons that were interested in you and they helped you to develop that vision that you were developing. PIJEAUX: At every step there was somebody, not only my parents, but there was somebody out there, more often or not it was a black male. In junior high school I met an African American female. You notice I' ; m bouncing between Black and African-American. Well, I' ; m old enough to go from nigger, colored, to Afro, African. To all these titles are labels that they associated with our side. I remember that, but there has always been somebody in my life who has seen some ability in me and that person has encouraged me. I' ; ve tried to pass that on. I' ; ve tried to identify people who have some ability and I' ; ve tried to help them cause I' ; ve learned from people who have helped me. HUNTLEY: What year did you finish high school? PIJEAUX: I graduated from McDonald 35 Senior High School in New Orleans, Louisiana in 1962. All black high school, college prep high school, very small. HUNTLEY: What do you mean in term of numbers? PIJEAUX: Numbers, if I' ; m not mistaken we had less than 400 people in the entire school. In my graduating class we may have had 70 to 75 people. The principal knew everybody by name, he had a doctorate from Harvard. In some ways when I became a principal I kind of patterned myself after this guy. He knew what he was doing, he was always well groomed and he tried to get to know everybody in the school, he' ; s another person I had good memories about. HUNTLEY: Was this a public school? PIJEAUX: Public school. HUNTLEY: New Orleans school system, 400. Was this an average sized school or was this a small school? PIJEAUX: This was a small school. It had selected enrollment, you had to apply for admission. Really when I was in middle school, or junior high school as my school was, I really wasn' ; t thinking about attending a college prep high school. I went to the school because of some of my friends that were attending the school who encouraged me to attend the school and did not realize for the most pain what I was experiencing until long after the expe1ience. When I became an adult and looked back and saw so many people who were graduates from this school who had gone on to do a lot of positive things in the country. Then I really had a much better appreciation for the experience that I had. HUNTLEY: Was this a neighborhood school or did you have to 1ide the bus? PIJEAUX: I rode the bus. I passed by several White schools where folks were calling me nigger and 2-4-6-8 we don' ; t want to integrate. Man, I remember. Those things, I think, have helped to make me the person that I am. I' ; m strong in some of my convictions. I think I' ; m a lot more sensitive to the needs of other people based on my expe1iences. Those experiences also helped me develop self-confidence. HUNTLEY: This was a time, the early 60s, when school were desegregated. Was that happening in New Orleans at the time? PIJEAUX: Sure, yes it was. HUNTLEY: Did you ever consider or did your family ever consider you being one of those students to desegregate one of the White schools? PIJEAUX: No. That was never a consideration. I was happy where I was, I was having a great time. My parents were pleased with the education I was receiving, so that was never a consideration. Even when I went on to college. I wanted to be with my people. I had gained and benefited from the nourishment that I had received in this all black environment for the most part. When I made a decision on entering graduate school then I went to a different envirom11ent. I went to Tulane University. Really I went there because of neighboring commissions and resources that the school offered. HUNTLEY: After you finished high school, then did you immediately go on to college? PIJEAUX: Yes I did. I went from high school, I went from McDonald 35 to Southern University in New Orleans, which was a branch of the main campus in Baton Rouge. Really from then on I was working, I was out there in the world of work, working my way through college. HUNTLEY: So, you worked during the time. PIJEAUX: I worked while I was attending school. HUNTLEY: This of course was a very important time as far as the movement was concerned. With you going to school and working you didn' ; t have the opportunity then to be involved in a lot of the demonstrations, I would assume. PIJEAUX: Yes and no. I was involved cause our university was involved in some demonstrations. My major contribution was the boycott. I would not spend my money at any place or with anybody that did not have any appreciation for me and my people. HUNTLEY: 1962, here in Birn1ingham that is what we called the Selected Buying Campaign, in fact it was a boycott. It was illegal to use the term boycott, so they used the Selected Buying Campaign. The downtown stores were affected and it was based upon primarily the Alabama Christian Movement and so1i of a coalition with some of the Miles College students. It was very successful. Did the same kind of situation exist in New Orleans at this same time? PIJEAUX: Yes, sure. Basically the same things that were happening in Birmingham were happening in New Orleans to varying degrees. We were boycotting, we were....... HUNTLEY: Sit ins. PIJEAUX: We had sit ins, we had boycotts, people were not 1iding the bus, you name it we were doing it. HUNTLEY: The buses were set up in the same manner as Birmingham' ; s? PIJEAUX: Same system. HUNTLEY: You had the board... PIJEAUX: You sat behind. You sat behind, we called it the screen but it was really a board, but we called it the screen. I remember as a kid riding the bus with my grandmother, my father' ; s mother, who' ; s a very, very fair ski1med woman and my grandmother would not sit behind that screen. Nobody could tell whether she was White or Black, so nobody bothered her. So, I had the experience of riding in front of the screen and behind the screen during the period of time when it was illegal for black people to ride in front of the screen. HUNTLEY: That depended on the grandmother you rode with. PIJEAUX: That' ; s right. (Laughing) That was a real interesting experience. My grandmother lived in Uptown, New Orleans, adjacent to what is now called the Garden District. So, it was a mixed neighborhood and I remember as a youngster, I was probably somewhere between 8 and 12 playing with my grandmother' ; s neighbor' ; s grandchildren when we used to visit her in the summer. These were White kids, we' ; d play together in the neighborhood and nobody would bother us and we had a real good relationship. I often wonder how these kids are doing having been adults for a long time now. When we would go to the movie I would be upstairs, I had to go around the side. HUNTLEY: Oh, you went to the movies together? PIJEAUX: We would go to the movies together, but we couldn' ; t sit together. We' ; d be in the movie throwing popcorn at one another. I was upstairs in the balcony throwing popcorn at them downstairs and they would be downstairs throwing it back at me. We had a real good relationship. At that period of time I wasn' ; t really aware of the differences between the races, but as I got older I really became very cognizant of the differences. What some people could do and what some people couldn' ; t do. A part of that experience has stayed with me and has motivated me to bring about some changes in what take? place with people. I find it ironic that here I am at the Institute where I can bring about some change. HUNTLEY: That reminds me of growing up. We had white friends as well, but it' ; s up to the start of school and once we started school they went to their school and we went to our school and we would see each other occasionally after school, but as we grew older we grew apart. PIJEAUX: Yeah, that was the experience I had with these young people that lived next to my grandmother. HUNTLEY: Why did you make the decision to go to Southern New Orleans? PIJEAUX: Well, all the long the way through my schooling from elementary, junior high and high school my teachers encouraged me to attend an all Black school. I could' ; ve gone to other schools but I wanted to continue my educational experience in an all Black arena. The expectations for me were high. The nurturing I thought would be different in that envirom11ent. I did not want to become a number, a statistic. I wanted to attend school where people had some appreciation for my experiences and could relate to those expe1iences. HUNTLEY: Did you consider going to Baton Rouge? PIJEAUX: Yes, I did. After spending a year at Southern in New Orleans, I spent a year at Grambling. HUNTLEY: Oh, ok. PIJEAUX: Had a good expe1ience but didn' ; t have the money to stay there, so I dropped out for a while and traveled around the country as a waiter. HUNTLEY: Is that right? PIJEAUX: Yeah. I' ; ve had some unique expe1iences. HUNTLEY: You went to Southern New Orleans.... PIJEAUX: I started at Southern New Orleans and then transferred to Grambling. HUNTLEY: What was that transition like? Now you were big city really going to Grambling, which is basically a rural area. What was that transition like? PIJEAUX: It was, I enjoyed it because for the first time in my life I was out there on my own and I had to take care of myself. Some of the things that my mother helped me with as a kid ; learning how to press clothes, learning how to wash, fold clothes, do a little cooking, all of those things that this lady had been telling me would be impo1tant and that I reluctantly did. Here they came looking at me square in the face where I had to do these things. So, it was a smooth adjustment, one that I didn' ; t realize would come about as quickly as it came about, but I was able to do those things that I needed to do to survive. I really enjoyed that expe1ience, it taught me about survival skills, it taught me how to make it in this world. Unfortunately, I just didn' ; t have the money to stay at Grambling and then I dropped out of school. HUNTLEY: Let me ask you before you start talking about that. You were some of a sports enthusiast and now you' ; re at Grambling. Eddie Robinson is at Grambling. Of course, during this period we' ; re talking about Grambling football. PIJEAUX: Grambling football and basketball. Willis Reed was on the team then when I was at Grambling. HUNTLEY: Can you talk about that? PIJEAUX: That was the most exciting college or university experience that I' ; ve had in my life. The campus was a hot bed for academics, athletics and music. Not only did they have an outstanding football team, they had an outstanding baseball team, they had an outstanding basketball team, and they had one of the top bands in the country. The band was traveling all around the country and a lot of people don' ; t realize that. Grambling at this time was producing several major league baseball players, a lot of people don' ; t realize that. The president was the coach. HUNTLEY: Of the baseball team? PIJEAUX: Of the baseball team, the president of the University was the head baseball coach at this time. HUNTLEY: I didn' ; t realize that. PIJEAUX: Yeah, yeah. It was just a real interesting expe1ience. The team that Willis Reed played on and many people may not know it but Willis Reed is in the Hall of Fame. If I' ; m not mistaken he was selected as one of the 50 top basketball players. Well the team that Willis Reed was on also produced other professional basketball players, Jimmy Jones, was one. Jimmy Jones became a player with the Baltimore Bullets if I' ; m not mistaken. They won a championship. Well, you had all these things going on. HUNTLEY: Had Buchanan left there? PIJEAUX: Buchanan had just left there. HUNTLEY: See, he was a Birmingham boy. PIJEAUX: Right, I know. We had Buchanan there, James Harris was on the way out, he became the first big time NFL quarterback. They had others I think, I think maybe the first may have been the kid from, well not a kid now, but the first may have been a guy from the University of Te1mes see who played wide receiver and quarterback for a very short time in the NFL. HUNTLEY: Harris was really the first to make it as a quarterback. PIJEAUX: Yes. There was a lot of excitement in the air back there and I really wanted to stay there, but again I didn' ; t have the money. HUNTLEY: So, then what did you do? PIJEAUX: I dropped out of school for about two years. HUNTLEY: Did you go back to New Orleans? PIJEAUX: I did go to New Orleans. I had an uncle who was a professional waiter, who was in a management position. I had worked for him during the summers and after school on occasions and be was traveling around the country as a waiter. He worked for a company. Well, I worked with him and traveled to different parts of the country working as a professional waiter. Saved a little money, helped purchase a home for my parents during that period of time. HUNTLEY: On a waiter' ; s salary? PIJEAUX: As a waiter. HUNTLEY: You were traveling the country. Where did you go? PIJEAUX: When we worked in Pine Bluff, Arkansas at a race track there. We worked at Churchill Downs where you had the Kentucky Derby. We worked at Kellin' ; s Race Course in Lexington, Kentucky where you had, well, at the time, one of the most beautiful race tracks in the world, Kellin ' ; s Race Course. I worked at a place called the Red Mount Trotting Track, New Orleans. There was a real circuit that we traveled. HUNTLEY: Now your uncle was a mm1age r in the company. PIJEAUX: Well, he was a manager in the dining room, in many places he was the head waiter and in some places he was a captain. HUNTLEY: How long did you do this? PIJEAUX: I did that on a regular basis for two years. Part time maybe for several years while working my way through school. HUNTLEY: How long did it take you to get back to school? PIJEAUX: About two years. HUNTLEY: And you went where? PIJEAUX: I went back to Southern in New Orleans. From there after spending about a year I think in Southern in New Orleans and when I went back to Southern in New Orleans and stopped traveling I was hired as a bus driver in New Orleans. I was one of the first African-American bus d1ivers in New Orleans. 1 worked for the transit company at night as a driver and I attended Southern in New Orleans during the day. So, again I' ; m still working my way through school. Saved up a little money and then transferred to Southern in Baton Rouge because Southern in New Orleans was about 3 or 4 years old at the time and they did not have an education department. I was pursuing a degree in art, but decided to focus on education because there wasn' ; t too many African-Americans making money as fine artists. So, I decided I would become a teacher. I was impressed and the work that some of the people had impacted me in a positive way. That was my first goal to give something back to the community. To return as a teacher. HUNTLEY: So, when you then finished at Southern Baton Rouge was that your first position in New Orleans? PIJEAUX: It was. Before I graduated, as a matter of fact, I was recruited for a position in New Orleans. HUNTLEY: What level, high school or elementary school? PIJEAUX: It was a middle school. The school district was changing from the junior/senior high concept to the middle school/high school concept. So, I was hired by a gentleman that knew me from my days as a student. He remembered me playing ball. I played basketball against him. He was a coach and he had become the personnel director. He knew a little bit about my background. I wasn' ; t fresh, I hadn' ; t just gone from high school to college and returned for a job. He knew that I had a variety of experiences and saw that as a plus. He hired me to work at a middle school that was involved in desegregation. Tough job, but I had a lot of fun. HUNTLEY: That should have been an experience though because you were talking about the whole concept of desegregating this being a changing school. Was it a White school that was changing? PIJEAUX: Well, it was a White school that was bringing Blacks in. Now, think about my background. I felt up to the challenge. I had a variety of experiences. I had gone through, as a high school student, the fury of whites that were in opposition to the desegregation of the public school system. The system had desegregated never integrated. It was in the process of desegregation and it was a very slow process. This school that I was headed to as an art instructor was in its second or third year of this cold desegregation movement in New Orleans. All of the schools didn' ; t move towards desegregation at the same pace. This school bused in youngsters from different areas of the city to help this desegregation work. It was a struggle. HUNTLEY: I' ; ve heard all kinds of stories from teachers who went into situations such as that, about the difficulties that they had with children as well as with administration. What were your experiences? PIJEAUX: It was a tough environment to be in. One, many of the students found themselves in a desegregated environment and the kids still stayed close to those youngsters who were like family in many ways. There was not a lot of mingling, where you did find mingling was in the performing arts and athletics, where you find it now. So, you see now it' ; s not so different from what I experienced 25 years ago. In terms of the staff, I can only give some assumptions. I felt some resentment from those Whites that had been in the school, who saw the school gradually changing in terms of the racial makeup of the professional staff. I really feel that the experiences that I brought to this job really helped me to make what I felt was a smooth transition from the university level to my first job as an instructor. I went to this school during the middle of the school year, people really needed me. So, that was a plus for me, they needed me. They had been through several all teachers who had no control, based on what I saw and what I was told prior to my arrival. They had no control over the kids and the kids were very disrespectful. When I went in, I felt some of the kids started off challenging me, but very quickly they understood that I was there to provide educational experiences for them and no matter what I was going to do that. So, for after about a week it was clear understanding who was in control. HUNTLEY: Some people ask the question rather your Creole background assisted you in any way, or in New Orleans Creole was either Black or White just like any place else? PIJEAUX: The assumption, I think, could be that because I' ; m fair skinned that maybe things were easier for me than they may have been for darker skinned African-Americans. That was not the case for me, it was not the case and again I' ; m making some assumptions here. I think it wasn' ; t the case because I see myself being a little different. I' ; ve always had some appreciation for who I am and I' ; ve always been who I am. With me, what you see is what you get. I' ; ve never been willing to sell myself for any doggone thing. If I believe it, then that' ; s the way I' ; m headed. If l don' ; t believe in it, then I' ; m going to tell you that and we can agree to disagree, we don' ; t have to be enemies. I' ; ve never been one who would be willing to settle myself for anything. HUNTLEY: So, in New Orleans, you were either Black or white. There was no, like in Brazil there is something called the Mulatto Escape Hatch, where people that are lighter skinned are not put at the same level as a Black person, but of course you are not at the level of that person that is white either. That didn' ; t exist in New Orleans? PIJEAUX: Yeah, there were varying degrees of that, sure. People made assumptions about people based on how they looked initially. My experience has been, once you see how people operate, once they find out if they can buy or sell you, then they will treat you a little bit differently. There have been several people in my home town who felt--and again I' ; m dealing with assumptions because I don' ; t know all the facts--as an outsider looking in. I felt people were given an opportunity because of the way they look ed and then they were able to hold onto those opportunities because of what they did. In many instances, what they did was for them and only them, or for them and for people who were close, but not for the masses. I have never been brought into that mentality. HUNTLEY: So, there was, of course, the whole concept of color consciousness. PIJEAUX: Sure. HUNTLEY: But also the concept of class. How did that play into the New Orleans situation? The school that you were going into, was that in a working class neighborhood just like the one that you came out of? PIJEAUX: Oh, it was in what I would describe as a red light district. It was an oasis in a sewer. This school that I attended was in downtown New Orleans on Rampart Street. Have you heard of Rampart Street, the history of Rampart Street? Let me tell you this, my school was directly, my high school, was directly across from what my grandmother would call a house of [inaudible] and I remember looking out of my chemistry class window at men who were across the street from me in a building where they would have their underwear on the line and these men wore rags around, they tied rags around their head and they would flirt with other men. On occasion when the instructor would turn his head and he would be talking about chemical makeups of various things, some of my friends and I would be saying ugly things to these people in this building. I remember one occasion we went to lunch and we found ourselves teasing some guys and they chased us all through the school house. That tells you a little bit about the high school I attended. Even with all of that Dr. Huntley, education was always held at high esteem at this place. HUNTLEY: Now, the school that you first taught in, was it in the same area? PIJEAUX: No, this school was on Esplande, which at the time was a middle class neighborhood that served the traditional middle class community at that time which was White. So, there was some concern from members of the community about the change in the school and the community started changing. People started moving out. Whites started moving out and Blacks started moving in. Now, today, like many schools, it' ; s become an all Black school. HUNTLEY: Now you stayed in education and you became a principal in New Orleans. PIJEAUX: Right. HUNTLEY: How long did it take you to arrive at that position? PIJEAUX: Very quickly. As I look back on my life things have happened. It took me a while to get started, but after I got started things just started happening very quickly to me. I was in the classroom. I worked at Southern University in New Orleans for two years. Well, let me give you a chronology of this. I worked at the middle school, it was McDonald 28. I worked there for one year. After that year... I worked there for one semester, not one year because I went there in the middle of the school year. I graduated in January and went there sho1ily after graduation and spent a semester there, did a good job. The school system wanted me to stay, but I was offered a position at Southern University in New Orleans. One of my former instructors was accepted at Indiana University to work on a doctorate, so he recommended me to replace him. I stayed there for two years. HUNTLEY: What did you do there? PIJEAUX: I was an instructor. I worked in the Art Department ; had a great experience. I realized at that time I wanted to help mold and shape the lives of young people. So, I decided I did not want to work at the university level at that time. Went to graduate school at Tulane and not only did I earn a Master of Arts in teaching Degree but I certified for principalship. I was selected for an assistant principalship shortly after that. After coming out... I' ; m trying to revisit all this in my head ; after earning my Masters I went to Ellen McMain, which is a public school in New Orleans, which was starting a college prep program. So, because of my background and my credentials I was selected for this job at McMain. I stayed there for two years and then I moved into assistant principal ship. Stayed at the assistant principal level for, I think, four or five years and then moved into the principalship. HUNTLEY: What type of school did you receive as your first school as a principal? PIJEAUX: Well, my first year was the acting principal of a school I had been an assistant principal. That school was predominantly Black, relatively new school, poorly constructed, poorly designed. HUNTLEY: Large school? PIJEAUX: Real large school. Grades 9-12 had in excess of 2,200 students. Good experience for me though, because it gave me an opportunity to see what could be done in this school. Like many people...when you' ; re second or third in conm1and you' ; re always second guessing the person who' ; s heading the ship. I was like that and when it became my turn to take care of the building I had to quickly, quickly my friend. I developed a much better appreciation and understanding for what the guy who I was replacing was expe1iencing, because for the first time the buck stopped with me. I couldn' ; t pass it to anybody. I couldn' ; t say the principal wanted me to do this. I couldn' ; t say I was following directions. I had to make decisions and it was a great learning expe1ience for me and we did make changes. We were able to show growth in test scores, and we were able to turn a deficit into a solid budget. In a very short period of time, we were able to do some of these things. I had the advantage of working in the environment. So, I knew where some changes could be made, unlike somebody who was brand new, who would have to find out where the changes had to be made. HUNTLEY: How long did you stay there? PIJEAUX: I stayed there for one year. I stayed there for one year and then was selected to head up a school that everybody thought was going to fail. They were ready to close this place. So, they said give it to Pijeaux, he' ; s not going to do anything with this place. Well, as fate would have it a few years later we were able to show substantial growth, not only in test scores, reduced the violence at the school and... HUNTLEY: All of these are inner schools? PIJEAUX: All of these are inner schools, public schools, where I' ; m working. Now, as I' ; m working at this school I am the p1incipal. I enter the University of Southern Mississippi in Hattiesburg in the Doctoral Program and become very interested in the effective schools research. A lot of people don' ; t realize it, but one of the fathers of that movement is Ryan Edmunds, a brother who worked in New York City and in Michigan and other parts of the country and basically what this brother was saying is: We know eve1ything we need to know to make a difference in schools. The question is do we want to change things? He also believed, as I do, it doesn' ; t matter where kids come from, what matters is what you do within the four walls of those schools and kids should not be held accountable for the actions of their parents. It' ; s no kids fault he may grow up in an environment like I did, where my parents weren' ; t well educated, or grow up in an environment like I did where my people were poor. None of those things have doodley squat to do with whether or not this kid can achieve in school. I really embraced that notion when I started this Doctoral Program because I was looking for what I could find that was out there that was being done. I didn' ; t want to reinvent the wheel, I wanted to find out what was being done. Some of the things this brother found as he did his research around the country and there were other people working with him. Some people heard of Brook Overen and there' ; s a few other people who I can' ; t recall right now. But I did my research on this for my doctoral. A couple of things that you can find in schools that are effective. One, people are clear on the goals, they know where they' ; re going. Two, they monitor student perfo1mance. Three the schools are clean and orderly, these places are safe and when you see people moving around everybody can see that there' ; s some business taking place here and you don' ; t have to go visit a school and stay in somebody' ; s classroom for 30 or 40 minutes to get some sense of what' ; s going on. When you walk in that building you can tell whether or not that education is impo1iant. So, I traveled to some of the school districts that were expe1iencing some success. I went to Memphis, visited with Hanington who is now mayor, he was supe1intendent, went to some of his schools. Saw some of the same characteristics that Edmund was talking about there. Went to Atlanta... HUNTLEY: This is when you were working on your doctorate? PIJEAUX: This is when I' ; m working on my doctorate and principal of a school. I met Alonso Crem, who was doing some real positive things. Crem and Hanington were probably the two longest tenured African-American superintendents in any major school systems in this country. Those guys made some positive changes in those dist1icts. Those things that Ryan Edmunds had found in his research, I found it in those schools that were doing well in those two cities. So, I implemented those things. HUNTLEY: You were principal and you worked on your doctorate at the same time? PIJEAUX: Yes, yes. HUNTLEY: How did you juggle those two? PIJEAUX: Well, once I found what I was looking for in terms of what I could use at the school sight to make a positive impact on students and teachers then I kind of backed off on the doctorate and spent some time, I mean doing some serious things in schools. I was selected as one of ten American hems in education. I think it was 1989 and left New Orleans and went to New Jersey and took on another principalship. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to leave New Orleans? PIJEAUX: Well, that' ; s a whole other story. It' ; s related to my wife and I making a decision that it was time for us to leave. But left New Orleans and took on a principalship in New Jersey and with my wife, my assistant and my mother encouraging me to return to school to complete the Doctorate. With that support I did that. HUNTLEY: Ok. PIJEAUX: So, I finished the Doctorate. I was commuting between two cities in New Jersey working on the Doctorate and also commuting between New Jersey and Mississippi working on the Doctorate. It was a struggle, but it was worth it. I eventually finished the doggone thing. HUNTLEY: You go from a southern city, inner city school system to an eastern city in New Jersey. What are the differences and similarities in terms of schools? PIJEAUX: Contrary to belief, I found that the schools in the East, in particular those that I was involved in, were more segregated and more problems that I had experienced in the South. There were more divisions, there were more groups. You bad people in these schools from different parts of the world and they had their own groups. So, there were more internal problems between students and among students in the school systems that I am familiar with in the East. HUNTLEY: How long were you in New Jersey? PIJEAUX: I was in New Jersey for about two and a half years maybe three years. HUNTLEY: Then you get an opportunity to move again and go to Indianapolis. PIJEAUX: Going to Indianapolis, going back to an opportunity to go return to my first love. Which was art. I started up a new program at the Indianapolis Museum of Art. They had received a lot of money from the same group that had selected me as one of ten American Negroes in education a few years later. Readers Digest gave a big chunk of money to this museum to diversify its audience. They were looking for someone who could do that. They were really looking for somebody from their own area. I applied for the job and was selected. Shortly after taking on this position I realized that there were opportunities in this field. A lot of opportunities for African-Americans. I said to my wife I think I' ; ve stumbled onto something. HUNTLEY: What did you see in Indianapolis that you liked that would keep you in that particular area and in that field? PIJEAUX: Well, I liked the city, thought it was a nice place to raise a family. My kids were getting older. I thought it was a nice place to raise a family. I thought it was a great opportunity because it was a new position, the people didn' ; t know exactly how they were going to get to where they were going, but they knew where they wanted to go. So, I thought I could create. I thought I could use my creative ability. I' ; m a creative person. It was another opportunity for me to help people. Now you think about all of the different things that I have done, they' ; ve all been related to helping people. You think about what I told you when I said I wanted to return to New Orleans as a teacher. It was to give back. Every place I' ; ve been there has been this thing in my head that' ; s saying: hey, don' ; t forget where you come from, you have to help other people, people have helped you to get where you are. So, that has been an underlying motive of all of the jobs that I have had. That has been something that has been a d1iving force in me. Trying to help other people, trying to help my own people. Trying to help other people have a better understanding of us. Trying to help us understand ourselves. All of those things are in this mix that I am feeling. Indianapolis also was, as I said, it was an opportunity for me to keep moving in this direction, but it was also an opportunity for me to go back to something that I cared about for most of my life and that was art. I' ; ve always been connected to art in some form or fashion. It was also an opportunity for me to utilize most of the things that I had experienced in life. My administrative experience, my interest in education, my interest in art, what I perceived to be and I still think I have this ability to work with people to move toward a common goal. So, I thought I could put all of those things together at the Indianapolis Museum of Art. While at the same time, explore a new field. HUNTLEY: Before we get too far in the field you are presently involved in as an educator, what happened with education you' ; ve seen in the South, you saw it in the East during the period of time when we were in school during om generation. You made the statement that people cared and they challenged you. What happened that now inner city education is totally under fire, what took place to create that difference in the last 20-30 years? PIJEAUX: I think a lot of things have happened. If I could really answer that and resolve this I could make a lot of money. I will tell you some things that I think have contributed to the problems that we see now. One, we have problems within our families. We have a lot of homes that are not headed by anybody, because to be honest we are talking about whether they are headed by male or female. Some of these homes are headed by children. I see that as a problem. There has been a problem with youngsters as I see it not respecting adults. Now why that exists, it has to be related to their experiences at home but to really define it in any one form or fashion I can' ; t, but that is a problem. I see youngsters walking on the streets, they' ; re using vulgar language, disregard of any adult who is in ear shot of what they are saying. During my time you could not do that. You would have a big problem. Adults are afraid to talk to kids, that' ; s another part of the problem. In schools, as I see it, the number one problem is low expectations. We expect kids to fail and so they fail. I think if we could address the expectations of youngsters in a positive way, I think we would experience more success. Now I am really over simplifying this doggone problem, but the number one thing as an educator that I see is that the expectations are low for kids and no matter what we say we can' ; t fool these kids. It' ; s not what you say, it' ; s what you do. It' ; s what you convey to kids nonverbally about what you expect from them, I think, that they really believe. HUNTLEY: In Birmingham we have a situation where education is under fire. As an educator are there any areas that you see, whether it' ; s Birmingham, New Orleans, or New York, that you definitely will have to deal with in order to connect what we feel is wrong in our system today? PIJEAUX: Every place I' ; ve been, Horace, it' ; s been the same problem. It' ; s at the board level. That' ; s where you have to start. You have to really find people who have children as their number one priori ty and will bite these tough bullets that we need to look at in a very affirmative way. That will have a positive impact on children. I' ; ve lived in New Orleans, I' ; ve lived in New Jersey, I' ; ve lived in Indiana and now here I am in Birmingham. Every place the problems are similar. From my perspective it appears as though we are not getting the right leadership at the board level. As a result of that, those problems that you are experiencing at the board level, they filter down to the superintendent and from the superintendent to the staff. Education, positive, effective, meaningful education has to be a top priority at the board level, we have to move away from these political problems that we are experiencing. HUNTLEY: You would somehow find out about a position in Birmingham, Alabama. You are at the Museum of Art in Indianapolis and you make a decision to leave there and come to Birmingham. Why? PIJEAUX: Well, I think it' ; s important for me to share with you, one, how I found out about the position and why somebody thought I might be the guy. After working at the Indianapolis Museum of Art for about four months I became aware of the African American Museum Association and I joined. I attended a conference in Roanoke, Virginia and met some of the key players in the organization. Comparatively speaking when you look at other professional organizations, AAMA, as I will refer to it, is a small group, but there are a lot of committed people in the group. I shared with some of the council members, as a matter of fact, I met one of the council members on the plane going to Roanoke. I didn' ; t know this lady was on the council, told her a little bit about my background, that I was at the Indianapolis Museum of Ali that I wanted to make a contribution, that I wanted to help. I wanted to learn as much as I could while working in Indianapolis, but my goal was to go to an African-American Museum where I could continue what I' ; ve been doing all my life, as what I said, trying to help people, trying to educate folks. Unbeknowing to me, there was a council meeting and my name surfaces. I had talked with other council members during my stay in Roanoke, not knowing these people are on the council, but folks see that I' ; m new and they want to know what I' ; m doing, etc. So, I' ; m saying to a variety of people basically the same thing. Hey, I want to get involved, I wanna help, let me know what I can do. Well, not only do you tell people you want to help, you find yourself with a job. So, I found myself being asked to help with the next conference, and I did. Within a very short period of time, make a long story short, I became a council member. The president of the association and other council members and other people in the field quickly learned that I was in the field, that I was interested in helping, that I was working at a museum under what' ; s called the mainstream museum in the field and that I had something to offer and people encouraged me. Here I go again, people encouraging me saying, hey, something is going to open up, be patient. As I told you before, in many instances things have happened to me quickly and within two and a half years in the field, I became very popular. During that time, the guy that I worked for recognized he could use me, he could use me to promote what he was doing at his museum. I recognized that, but I also saw the opportunity to let people in the field know that I had some ability. So, I said, ok use me, but I' ; m going to let people know what I had on the ball here. So, it was a win-win situation, my working in Indianapolis. I was able to help some people. Some of those people were our people who became subcontractors with the museum, employees with the museum, we did some programing with that museum. So, we were able to help. HUNTLEY: You got the Black community involved with the museum. PIJEAUX: That' ; s right that was my charge, not only as visitors but as employees. That was important to me. Not just full-time employees, but people who provide services to the museum that brought them funds. The museum was contracting with a lot of people, so we brought in some African-Americans, who they can contract with, who they have not contracted with previously. So, we were able to help the African-American community during our brief stay there. Also, expose to the museum staff African-Americans who knew what they were doing. So, they had a better appreciation, I think, of what we had in the community. It gave the director an opportunity to showcase an African-American that he had, so he was able to go and tell his colleges that I got one. I understood what that was all about, but it also gave me an opportunity to show people around the country what I could do and what I had done in Indianapolis, because I found myself going out in the field speaking about what we were doing in Indianapolis. With supporting documentation, where people understood that I wasn' ; t just talking about something, but that I was actually doing something. So, after approximately two and a half years people begin contacting me about employment. I was about to accept a job in Chicago, because I would have been a director of a facility. I was in the final stages of the screening process and had been told that we want you for this job and put that on hold, because I received a call from the president of the African-American Museum Association. He said to me, it' ; s my understanding that the Bimringham Civil Rights Institute is looking for an Executive Director. He said are you interested? I said yes. I had been here on two occasions. I have a friend here in Birmingham and shortly after this place opened I came to visit. About a year after it was opened, I came back a second time because my family still lived in New Orleans. So, wherever we lived we would pass through Birmingham, my family and I could visit New Orleans. So, I was familiar with the facility, I mean, overwhelmed with it when I first came. When I was told there was a possibility of employment here, I seized that opportunity. HUNTLEY: What was the attraction in terms of the facility? PIJEAUX: What this place stands for. It was directly related to my personal experiences. I grew up with this. I experienced this. It was another opportunity again to help educate, to make a difference. In an environment, when I say environment, I' ; m talking about the entire community that I' ; m comfortable with, that I' ; m familiar with. For the first time my family and I, since leaving New Orleans, would be in an environment where we had a friend. Where I knew somebody. HUNTLEY: That makes a difference. PIJEAUX: It makes a big difference. Where I was really close to home. Where I felt at home. So, those things are some of the reasons that I came here. I was impressed with some of the board members who I interviewed with. That' ; s the whole story. When you work for a board, there' ; s going to be good and bad days and, in particular, when you' ; re working for the first board that brings on a whole different set of circumstances. When I looked at the total picture, I felt good about what I saw and I still feel good about it. HUNTLEY: What do you view is your major contribution since you' ; ve been here? PIJEAUX: Organization. I would like to think that that' ; s going to be my major contribution, helping to organize the place. At some point, maybe the near future, you' ; re going to need a different person to come in here, but I think my major contribution has been and should be helping to organize the place, putting policies in place, getting people familiar with how to operate, how to work together. That' ; s been a struggle, with the setting of high level of expectations, getting people to function in a very professional maimer. Knowing that they should go to the top, don' ; t go to the second step. Earl Graves, when he was here, talked about that. You go to the top. Know with a new group of people...you know people here for the most part have not been in leadership positions. HUNTLEY: Right. PIJEAUX: Most of the people we find here, great people, want to do a good job, but just need somebody to help them to find their way. Somebody who' ; s going to wrap their arms around them. Having a high level of expectations, calling a spade a spade, but being sensitive to the fact that all of these people are new. They want somebody to help them to work effectively. So, I see that as my role being a leader, but a friend. It' ; s like being a father figure, I guess. I guess that' ; s a pain of it all. So, when people have problems they' ; re willing to come and talk with me about those problems, not feeling that I' ; m a guy they can' ; t talk to and recognizing that I' ; m just another brother, who happens to provide leadership here, but who has not forgotten where he' ; s come from. That' ; s really important to me, that people recognize that. HUNTLEY: Well, I think you' ; ve been rather successful in accomplishing that, because you have a smooth running ship and people walk through and find out how nice it is being maintained. PIJEAUX: That is great. I feel good about that, Horace. I remember when my wife and I came to visit the Institute, before I accepted the position and she told me. What you have just said is what my wife said to me would be my biggest challenge, maintaining this facility. I really think and I guess I' ; m looking at this through rose colored glasses, but I think we' ; ve done a good job of that. I think this place is in good shape and I think when you and I and others are gone, if we' ; ve done our job, people will come here and they will find a good place. HUNTLEY: I want to thank you for taking this hour out of your busy schedule. I know that you have many, many things that you have to do. We need to do this again, but I appreciate this morning. PIJEAUX: Thanks, I' ; ve enjoyed it. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=LPijeaux1997.xml LPijeaux1997.xml
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Dr. Lawrence Pijeaux (1997)
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Dr. Lawrence Pijeaux discusses demonstrating in New Orleans before pursuing a career in arts education. He served at various institutions, including the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute, and worked to increase Black community involvement in museums.
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19970611P
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
African American Museum Association
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.)
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1997-06-11
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video
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
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Horace Huntley
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John T. Porter
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JTPorter1997.xml
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5.4 March 26, 1997 Rev. John T. Porter 19970326P 1:10:30 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Dexter Avenue Baptist Church (Montgomery, Ala.) Ebenezer Baptist Church (Atlanta, Ga.) King, Alfred Daniel (1930-1969) Smith, Nelson (1930-2006) King, Martin Luther, 1899-1984 John T. Porter Horace Huntley Video 1:|16(10)|40(7)|50(9)|62(8)|72(1)|83(4)|99(6)|112(5)|130(3)|145(10)|155(8)|167(10)|179(6)|191(10)|199(14)|215(10)|238(14)|256(3)|273(13)|283(5)|291(6)|300(4)|312(10)|324(12)|340(7)|355(4)|374(11)|389(3)|402(10)|409(7)|423(7)|440(14)|451(10)|462(4)|477(14)|489(13)|499(2)|508(1)|520(4)|530(14)|548(9)|561(4)|572(10)|583(8)|594(5)|602(13)|612(12)|622(10)|632(7)|642(1)|653(1)|667(2)|676(13)|687(7)|700(13)|710(15)|726(2)|737(12)|746(8)|756(6)|767(3)|776(10)|786(1)|794(13)|805(10)|822(3)|829(12)|840(9)|852(6)|861(14) 0 https://youtu.be/Ky7n8ghAvvk YouTube video English 0 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Reverend John Thomas Porter for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Reverend John Thomas Porter is introduced. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history interview 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 30 Family Background I'd like to ask you first of all, were your parents originally from Birmingham? Porter states that he was born in Birmingham, Alabama and grew up in the Titusville neighborhood. His parents lived in Pittsville, Alabama and came to Birmingham, where his father and mother worked for the president of the Alabama Company. Alabama Power Company ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Martin, Thomas W. ; Pittsview (Ala.) ; Titusville Community African American families 590 The Titusville Community What was Titusville like in those early days that you were growing up? Porter describes the community in Titusville and how his school, Washington Elementary, fit within it. He also compares the maintenance difference between the white & ; Black neighborhoods. Booker T. Washington Elementary School ; Titusville Neighborhood (Ala.) Communities, contexts, and cultures 942 School Experiences & ; Leadership Development After Washington Elementary, then you went on to some other little school? Porter details his experience in attending both Ullman & ; Parker High Schools, and how he became involved with the student council. He led small political movements, one of which involved boycotting & ; protesting a faculty member at Parker High. student activism ; student council ; Ullman High School (Birmingham, Ala.) Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 1197 How Birmingham Impacted a Worldview How did this period of living in Birmingham impact upon your life as the way that you would view your future and view your world? Porter describes how his acceptance of the status quo shifted into unrest as he became older, especially when he became aware of segregation and the discrepancy of how he was addressed as opposed to white people. Introspection ; Self-evaluation Birmingham (Ala.) ; Protest, culture and society 1452 Relationship with Siblings You being the younger of the children, what kind of relationship did you have with your brothers and sister? Porter describes the positive relationship that he has with his siblings, despite somewhat growing away from them due to his moving to college. He also recounts times where one of his brother would proudly introduce Porter to his friends as his " ; college brother." ; African American families 1577 Experience at Alabama State University What was your transition like then from high school to college? Porter recounts his time at Alabama State University, where he took on many leadership roles. In his senior year of college, he became ill with tuberculosis, which caused him to take a break for two years before returning. African American college graduates ; Tuberculosis Alabama State University 1895 Meeting & ; Working with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. When you returned then for your senior year, you then had an experience to meet an individual that would have an impact upon the entire country and the world. Porter details how he became involved with Martin Luther King, Jr., which included working with him at Dexter Avenue Baptist Church. After graduating from Alabama State, Porter worked with Martin Luther King, Sr. at Ebenezer Church. African American preaching ; Dexter Avenue Baptist Church (Montgomery, Ala.) ; Ebenezer Baptist Church (Atlanta, Ga.) ; King, Martin Luther, 1899-1984 King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 2447 Pastoring in Detroit, Michigan After you finished up at Morehouse what did you do? Porter recounts how he moved to Detroit, Michigan to pastor at First Baptist Church for four and a half years. He then returned to Birmingham to pastor at 6th Avenue Baptist Church. 6th Avenue Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; African Americans--Michigan--Detroit ; First Baptist Church (Hamtramck, Mich.) African American preaching 2698 A Knock at Midnight and The Three Horses of the Apocalypse At your installation service, Martin Luther King preached the sermon? Porter recalls how Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr, preached A Knock at Midnight at Porter's installation service. Porter then led the march on Palm Sunday with A.D. King and N.H. Smith. King, Alfred D. ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968. Speeches. Selections ; Palm Sunday ; Smith, Nelson H. ; St. Paul United Methodist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) African American churches ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama 3104 Arrest & ; Jail Tell me about that experience, just the arrest itself. Porter recounts a time where he, Nelson Smith, and A.D. King were arrested by the Birmingham Police, which resulted in an overnight stay in jail. King, Alfred Daniel (1930-1969) ; Smith, Nelson (1930-2006) Arrest--United States ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 3424 Reinvigorating the Movement During this particular time, the movement, of course, was at its height. Porter describes the challenges he faced in trying to continue the energy of the Movement after the marches. Porter attributes the success of the movement to ideal timing and the social climate. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 African American students ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 3763 The Statue of the Three Kneeling Ministers I want to go just for a minute to the incident that took place here in Birmingham. Porter shares how the statue of ministers kneeling at Kelly Ingram Park were originally intended to depict the exact likenesses of A.D. King, Nelson Smith, and himself, but the heads were replaced with generic ones. King, Alfred Daniel, 1930-1969 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Smith, Nelson, 1930-2006 ; Woods, Abraham, 1928-2008 Historic monuments 4204 Conclusion of the Interview Well, Reverend Porter, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit and talk with me today. Conclusion of the Interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history interview Oral History Rev. John T. Porter discusses working with Dr. King at Dexter Avenue and Ebenezer Baptist Churches. He was arrested with Nelson Smith, A. D. King as a result of his involvement in the Movement. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Reverend John Thomas Porter for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I' ; m Dr. Horace Huntley. We are presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is March 26, 1997. Rev. Porter, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to sit and talk with me today. I' ; d just like to ask you first of all, were your parents originally from Birmingham? PORTER: No, they were both from Russell County? Pittsview, Alabama, you probably never heard of it. HUNTLEY: Near Phoenix City? PORTER: Yes, Pittsview which was Phoenix City is now the county seat. They had another county seat during that time but is Russell County. HUNTLEY: Now were you born in Russell County or were you born here in Birmingham? PORTER: I was born in Birmingham, eight blocks from where I pastured. I didn' ; t get very far in life - eight blocks. HUNTLEY: Eight blocks, that' ; s a long journey. PORTER: Just a little round about but I ended up eight blocks away from home. HUNTLEY: That' ; s very interesting. Siblings, how many brothers and sisters? PORTER: I had one brother and one sister there were three children, and they' ; re all still living. HUNTLEY: Where do you fit in that, were you the baby? PORTER: I was the youngest, that' ; s how I prefer it. I was the youngest of the three. HUNTLEY: What neighborhood did you grow up in? PORTER: Titusville and I' ; m one of the original blue bloods of Titusville - that was the original Titusville people. Then it grew and you' ; ve got Lincoln Park and some other segments that are now Titusville but I was there among the first families so we were one of the original blue bloods of Titusville. HUNTLEY: What about the educational background of your parents? PORTER: My father if he went to school at all he didn' ; t mention it never alluded to one day in school which I' ; m not sure he ever went. I think he was a country boy and he did a lot of farming and stuff. So his educational background was nil. My mother may have gone to about the 6th or 7th grade. But we were from very proud families ambitious always striving to be better etc. So they were totally unlearned. I doubt whether my father could read. He could write his name but I think that' ; s about all. HUNTLEY: Where they grown when they came to Birmingham or did they come as children? PORTER: No, they married in Pittsview and my father came to Birmingham as a young man of about 18 or 19 years old and then he went back a year or so later and drawed his sweetheart to Birmingham after having this big front porch wedding in Pittsview. So they moved here and located near where South Town Project is now. It was Scruggs Alley. So marvelous things can come out of the alleys. So their first three room house was in Scruggs Alley and it was one of those kinds of situations where the house was spotless and yet these are the kinds of people that came of the alleys. They moved to Titusville which was sort of upscale. It was no Enon Ridge where the professionals were but at that time Titusville was really kind of moving up. So they moved from Scruggs Alley and they moved to Titusville. But incidentally, I want to just throw this in. My father was a yard man, they' ; re landscape engineers now. But he was a yard man at a private home, this was in like ' ; 29 let me give you some of the attitude of the South. He went to the employer and asked for enough money to pay down on a car. The employer who was a typical White bigot would not give him money to buy a car but he agreed to give him the down payment on a house. So in ' ; 29 this bigot went out to Titusville and bought the chauffeur a house, he bought the butler a house and he bought the yard man a house. The agreement was they would pay for the house $5 a week from their wages and my father was making maybe $15 and he wondered how can you take care of a family and pay $5 a week that would leave you but $10. My father assured him he could make it but the fellow gave my father a raise to $20. HUNTLEY: So he retained that $15? PORTER: Fifteen dollars plus a house. This was the worst kind of bigot. HUNTLEY: Did he live in Birmingham, the person that he worked for? Was it in Homewood? PORTER: On top of the mountain, he was one of the richest men in Birmingham. All of the very rich lived on top of the mountain overlooking Birmingham Now the very rich have moved further out but at that time the very rich lived on the very top of the mountain and all of these were domestics. They had five and six servants per house. You know how they have one now or maybe a part time twice a week. But everyday five servants worked in that house. HUNTLEY: What kind of person was this person involved in? Do you know that? PORTER: Alabama Power, he was president of the Alabama Power Company [inaudible] HUNTLEY: That is something. PORTER: He had that kind of relationship where he was opposed to my father having a car but was interested in a house that we were very blessed in an indirect way. I' ; ve always appreciated him even though he was a typical Southerner at that time he blessed us in a marvelous way. HUNTLEY: Prior to your father coming did he or his family own property in Pittsview? PORTER: No. HUNTLEY: Were they farmers though? PORTER: Sharecroppers and because of a leg injury or whatever caused my grandfather to limp. He could not straighten his leg, his leg was bent. So he could not farm because of that leg. So he was a keeper of cows. The owner had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of cows and my grandfather would see after these cows and twice a week he would call those cows to the house. To hear him call cows and to look and you can' ; t see a single cow anywhere, in fifteen minutes hundreds of cows . . . HUNTLEY: The calling of the cows. PORTER: Would be coming. I' ; m sure he had this kind of job because that the only one . . . he could not walk behind a plow, he was limping so. So my father' ; s beginnings were very simple. HUNTLEY: So you then visited your grandparents? PORTER: Yes, in the summer time we would stay six weeks maybe, every year in the country with our grandparents. Both my grandparents were in Pittsview. HUNTLEY: Did your mother work outside of the home? PORTER: My mother would work occasionally as the upstairs maid. HUNTLEY: In the same home? PORTER: At the same home with the [inaudible] HUNTLEY: Did she always live at home or did she at times stay there with that family? PORTER: No, she lived at home. My father would stay on the place every now and then when they would vacation. They always wanted someone and the servants would rotate turns of staying on the property at night. But my mother did work, just on occasions when Mrs. Martin wanted something very special done and she was sort of considered the upstairs maid. HUNTLEY: What was Titusville like in those early days that you were growing up? You went to Washington Elementary School. Tell me about Washington Elementary School and how that fit into that community. PORTER: It was a Black community beyond the railroad tracks. Black communities are always beyond the railroad tracks you see. Going west, you would past the street car here and ride to what is now UAB and that was called Idlewild Circle and you' ; d get off the street car at the end of the line and walk due west. Once you cross the railroad tracks you were then in the Black community. In Titusville, there were very few if any paved streets in Birmingham. They were all dirt and we would sweep like you' ; d sweep the house there was not grass because we had hogs and chickens and stuff so there was no grass and once a week we had to sweep it like we do a house. I did live to see all of the streets paved but as a child they were not paved. HUNTLEY: You know I always thought about that, what did that represent, the sweeping of the street the sweeping of the yards what did that represent in the Black family the Black community? PORTER: In the White community you would cut the grass, it looks fresh and clean and orderly. To get that same effect of orderliness and cleanliness you would sweep it and you get the same effect as if you would have just cut the grass. All the dirt is level, so it was just cleanliness and houses were cleaned inside to outside because the next day the chickens would walk out over and clunk up the dirt so you would go back and sweep it again and it gave it a very nice smooth clean look. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your days at Washington Elementary School? PORTER: They were good days. All of my growing up days were happy days. I think I' ; m a very happy adult because my childhood days were very comfortable and they were very good. My time at Washington School was a very special time. We always felt very protected. The neighborhood was protected because the adults watched out of their windows somebody was always looking so it was a very safe environment and we were very much at home at Washington School. You had teachers who were sort of like mothers, they were not cold and withdrawn they were involved with you so it was a very good time. We had many families that were not well off. There was no one well off if a coal miner made the better salaries the only problem is the labor union had strikes six months out of the year. But when they were working they were making the better salaries. Domestics never did make good salaries but they always worked so if you didn' ; t have but a little income you had some. So you' ; d find that domestic person almost as well off or better than say a railroad worker who do just a half year salary. HUNTLEY: You had railroad workers, you had coal miners, you had domestics, what other occupations do you remember growing up in your community? PORTER: There were all home owners on our street. In the neighborhood everybody was homeowners, there were some postal workers and I' ; m sure common laborers but we were fortunate in the neighborhood to have the postal workers the coal miners or the railroad people and domestics from the big homes. That was a class there. If you were a domestic at the smaller homes or the lesser rich White people then those who were in the homes of the very rich there was a very striking difference. Our church to which we both belong had Black folk from the very rich families so we was always kind of special. HUNTLEY: So that this aura of 6th Avenue is not something new? PORTER: No, we do have doctors and nurses now, back then we had no doctors or nurses but they were all at another kind of level even among the domestics it was the higher paid or domestics from the larger families that attended our church. HUNTLEY: After Washington Elementary then you went on to some other little school? PORTER: Ullman. HUNTLEY: Oh you went to Ullman? PORTER: Ullman High, yes, you see there was only one high school and that was Parker but Ullman which had been White had now become Black but it was only a two year high school. So everybody on the Southside would go to Ullman for Southside and for the last two years of high school, everybody from everywhere would come to Parker. HUNTLEY: You said Ullman had been a White school? PORTER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Had it been a White junior high school or elementary school or do you remember? PORTER: I don' ; t know, I really don' ; t know. All I know is that it was a White school. But then it became a Black two year high school. HUNTLEY: Then you went from Ullman to Parker? PORTER: Right. HUNTLEY: What was that like? PORTER: It was just not a new world but there were more people from everywhere and some you never did get to know. Thirty years later I went to the class reunion and my wife said to me look like you didn' ; t know each other I said well we don' ; t know each other now and frankly we didn' ; t know each other then it was too big. It was probably the largest high school in the world. They had 5,000 students which made it the largest Black high school in the world. HUNTLEY: That' ; s the way it had been termed. The largest Negro high school in the world. PORTER: I don' ; t know how [inaudible] But anyway I was thrown into that and somehow I became a more aggressive and assertive in high school then in elementary school I was always shy and sort of withdrawn but in high school the shyness shut down and I started getting aggressive politically and other things. HUNTLEY: What extracurricular activities were you involved in? PORTER: I wasn' ; t ever into band or football believe it or not you just knew I played football. I was always on the student council, I was leader of that kind. HUNTLEY: You were a political leader? PORTER: Political leader, until the principal called me one day in the office my senior year I believe he told me that he didn' ; t like my militant attitude. I never heard of the word militant. I had to try so hard to impress the principal who was new. HUNTLEY: Was that Johnson? PORTER: Johnson, told me he didn' ; t like my militant attitude. HUNTLEY: What was he referring to, how did you interpret what he was saying? PORTER: I was a member of the High Wire, member of the choir, and the High Wire had a thing I was involved in and that was a protest of a boycott against the teacher who was over the High Wire. I was sort of accused of leading. HUNTLEY: Was it an unfounded acquisition? PORTER: We didn' ; t think so. I don' ; t even remember what it was now but we decided that we were going to protest and boycott and I think the faculty member had gone to the principal and told him that we had pulled a strike. He come in and he was angry told me I don' ; t like your militant attitude. Ohhhh, that hurt my heart because I didn' ; t know what it was. But I entered the oratorical contest and the choir and all of this was a part of far removed from the [inaudible] of elementary school. HUNTLEY: You being a young Black male growing up in Birmingham, Alabama. Being rather aggressive at the time and you seemingly had some vision of where you wanted to go. How did this period of living in Birmingham impact upon your life as the way that you would view you future and view your world? PORTER: As I indicated earlier my childhood was a happy childhood in that we were provided for and was never in dire need, never had a surplus either. My father always told me how to approach White people, never with my hat on always say yes sir and this is how things are. So with a kind of acceptance I was not fighting against it at any point because I wasn' ; t angry about it. I thought it was just par for the course. As I grew older I felt more and more unfairness. I was sensitive to the segregation of the buses, the thing that really brought it to focus and when I started working my senior year in high school, everybody on the job was Mr. and Mrs. even the young kids but I was always John to everybody. Nobody explained to me why but I just knew this was not right and what I would do in my junior and senior year in high school I developed my on private protest against these inequities that nobody knew about. Like I made up my mind that I would never say yes sir to a White man. One would come in and say John have you seen that book that was on my desk. I would say, well let me see I think I saw it over . . . always avoiding saying yes sir. HUNTLEY: This was conscious? PORTER: Yes, oh I knew that it was wrong for everybody even the folk my age to Mr. and Mrs. and I was person A. So I decided what I would do is that I would never say yes sir to nobody. Interestingly I found out many years later that the man who was my boss knew exactly what I was doing and didn' ; t fire me. I could always love him because he didn' ; t fire me but I made a conscious effort never to say yes sir to a White man. My second thing, now all of this was in my junior and senior year in high school, I was nominated for something . . . I' ; m going to lose my thought . . . oh yes, in Birmingham I decided in my own mind and never told my dad or anybody that I would never allow a White man to out walk me on the streets of Birmingham. I would stand at the red light and as soon as the light would turn green I would step like I was going a hundred miles an hour. I never allowed any White person to walk faster than me. This is my private protest that I would never utter to anybody but to [inaudible] HUNTLEY: I' ; m reading this book now that I' ; m gonna let you read once I finish it and it talks about those kinds of protests, unorganized protests, but nevertheless very, very real. PORTER: Yes, I' ; m sure every White man I' ; ve walked past knew what I was doing because you just knew that. No matter how fast you were walking you never walked ahead of a White man. It was just deep within my soul without ever saying it to anybody that I would never allow them to out walk me. HUNTLEY: You being the younger of the children, what kind of relationship did you have with your brothers and sister? PORTER: A good relationship as childhood relationships go. But my brother didn' ; t go to college and my sister didn' ; t go to college and once I got to college it sort of set me over in another league. Now we have a good rapport now and everything but from the time I went to college I sort of began to live in another world. HUNTLEY: How do you mean? PORTER: My interests were not their interests, their interests were not my interests. It just sort of gave us . . . HUNTLEY: Would you say that you were growing away from them? PORTER: Separated only out of interest. Still a closeness that we were the kind of family, it was a small family [inaudible] we were still family. I never sensed for a moment that my brother was envious of me. The reason why I know that is, my brother was a heavy drinker in those days and I would come home on weekends and he would want me to go to the club with him. Well I didn' ; t want to go to clubs that was his thing but I would go. He would always introduce me, hey I want you to meet my college brother. HUNTLEY: He was proud? PORTER: Even though he was intoxicated he expressed pride which I say must have been genuine and real because he did it for so long he wanted to present me to everybody and always did it by letting them know this is my college brother. HUNTLEY: How much older was he? PORTER: Two or three years at the most, we' ; re pretty much the same age. HUNTLEY: What was your transition like then from high school to college? You went off to Alabama State is that correct? PORTER: Yes. HUNTLEY: What was that transition like? PORTER: When I first graduated my father was quite poor and I couldn' ; t go to college, so I graduated in January we had two classes graduating every year. We' ; d have about eight to ten classes and you either graduated in May or in December so I didn' ; t graduate. I did graduate in January on time I was the youngest in the class but in May I couldn' ; t go off because there was summer school and all of that and I couldn' ; t go next year because I hadn' ; t planned to go that early. So I got a job working and the thing that really turned me around got me going first of all I had chosen friends here that were all college bound kids from families more affluent than mine. So when I woke up and saw them going to college I really, you know, I think that by being with the right people who were college bound [inaudible] because it was my peers the very people I was running with. I looked up and they were on their way to college so I just grabbed my stuff and started running too. So I was inspired more by my peers than I was by faculty members who really didn' ; t say much to me about college. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide on Alabama State? PORTER: It was cheap. I wanted to go to Talladega. But people who went to Talladega were the daughters and sons of doctors and lawyers. So I ended up going to Alabama State because it was cheaper. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your experience at Alabama State. You mentioned earlier that you arrived in high school at Parker that you had become more assertive so by the time you get to college now you did not go the first year. PORTER: Right. HUNTLEY: So now you have a little more maturity so what was that experience like? PORTER: I think being more mature made me be ready to be more of a leader because deep down in spite of my shyness and withdrawnness I wanted to be a leader you know and I prayed to be a leader and the Lord did in fact my junior year make me president of the junior class which was just great. Then my senior year and I was always president. I was president of this and president of that, I was always president but the height of my ambition was the be president of Alpha. When my senior year came up I was elected president of Alpha. Interestingly I took office about three months into the term I became ill and the doctor said I had tuberculosis or cancer and I was the biggest man on campus. I thought the doctors didn' ; t know what he was saying I told him I was going home for a week or three days for tests and I' ; d be back and don' ; t make any announcements until I return. Well I went to Birmingham and came to the doctor and they confirmed that I had .. . they told me I had TB or scuffala, I think they said. They said tuberculosis of the lymphatic glands. Now I may be wrong because I never seen that doctor since. But anyway I was out about two years. But being there my senior year caused me to be mature. And when I was out a year and then came back I was even more of a leader I was more of a counselor, you know, guys come and sit in my room with me. HUNTLEY: They probably had heard of you then? PORTER: Yes, yes, and I' ; m pretty sure that they had heard about me but it was rare to have a young person preaching. He done lost his mind, had a nervous breakdown or something. HUNTLEY: When was it that you went into the ministry? PORTER: My senior year. HUNTLEY: Senior year? PORTER: After the Lord knocked me down and laid me out, I had a real talk with him. I prayed, we' ; d talked before. I had a real in-depth conversation with him and that' ; s when I made certain promises to him. HUNTLEY: When you returned then for your senior year, you then had an experience to meet an individual that would have an impact upon the entire country and the world. PORTER: Yes, my senior year I was a ministerial student. Only one on campus. Most people hadn' ; t heard of somebody my age talking about preaching. When I returned and started my senior year, then I was asked my, a faculty member, if I had heard of Martin King. I told him no I hadn' ; t. He said Martin King is the new pastor of Dexter Avenue Church and [inaudible] So on his recommendation a couple of weeks later I went down with some friends to hear Dr. King speak. When the service was over I think it was the next week on campus the professor introduced me to Martin King as a young preacher. Martin King says you know I don' ; t have anybody at Dexter working with me, why don' ; t you come down to Dexter and work with me. I' ; d heard him speak and I had never heard anybody speak like that before and his image of a preacher was just so perfectly, he didn' ; t dress too flashy it was just perfect. So I knew it was my opportunity to go so he invited me and I went down there. For a year, I sat next to Martin King during his first year as pastor of the Dexter Avenue Church. I think his greatest preaching took place during that period. That he was never really [inaudible] he never had any time to write or rewrite or such. But as a pastor he was always in the pulpit only on very rare occasions did he miss. But I got opportunities to get to know him and to work with him and see him at what I consider at his best. HUNTLEY: Were you very close friends, or did you become very close friends as a result of that year? PORTER: I' ; ll not say close friends I don' ; t like the words close friends because he was a person who you could say was your friend but there was no buddy relationship you see. Sometimes you say close friends and think you were buddies or something like that to me he was never that. I never called him Martin. It was probably three years difference in our ages but from day one I always called him Dr. King. If I look like I' ; m tiring I' ; m really not it' ; s just my diabetes working on me. HUNTLEY: We' ; ll just do this tape and will cut it off and if later on you need to get back. PORTER: How much time you got? HUNTLEY: We still have another . . . this is a 90 minute tape so we still have another 40 minutes. PORTER: Okay, could you turn it off for just a few minutes. HUNTLEY: You did have the privilege of working with Dr. King. How did that impact your relationship and impact upon? How you would eventually few the ministry? PORTER: I worked with him a year after being invited down. It was his first year out of Boston and it was just a local parish priest you know hoping to do a good job as pastor. It was my senior year at Alabama State. He was a tremendous preacher and I' ; m sure he did his best preaching during that first year. After that he went to Albany, but he was a marvelous preacher. He was a new kind of preacher. The preachers I had known prior to King were not lettered preachers they had, had no formal training. King' ; s dress, everything was different there was a new image of the preachers and I needed that badly. Just starting out in the ministry I needed a new image. So he came in my life at a special time that I needed another role model of a preacher and he was that. In watching him I just want to allude to the fact that he would write his sermons complete, they' ; d be typed up. At the time of the delivery of the sermon he would leave the folder in the chair and go to the pulpit and you could almost pick up the written sermon and read it with him. He obviously almost had a photographic mind. He never carried the manuscript to the pulpit. Now I tried that a couple of times but it didn' ; t work. I had to have a manuscript, the whole thing. He would leave the manuscript in the chair and he' ; d go up. He would go back to Boston every now and then to complete up his work on the Ph.D. During those absences he would allow me to preach in his stead etc. But I' ; m not sure if there was ever any, obviously there were, but just wide spread focus. See I was a good friend of King. He was the kind of guy who had a whole lot of friends. Lots of people knew him and he knew them, but just to say that I' ; m a friend of King. He was a serious kind of person, but he didn' ; t tell jokes and he didn' ; t laugh. He was just so serious about everything. HUNTLEY: Always serious? PORTER: Yes, you really didn' ; t get no joking and clowning out of him. He was always very serious about what he was about. Never on time, that' ; s one thing I did learn. I have to be on time. He' ; d start 30 minutes late just like he was on time. I realized later that he' ; d stay on time all of the years of his life he would have died much earlier but by . . . his technique was easy to follow. He had many other things that I picked up that I still do to this day. But then I went to Atlanta after I graduated. I worked with his father for three years and was able to see another kind of pastor to see another guy pasturing as to what you would do and what you would not do. HUNTLEY: How were they similar and how were they different? PORTER: They were very different, very different. Martin Sr. was the most unique man I ever met, not junior. It was senior who had the uniqueness that no one else. I mean his was an old fashioned dictator. He' ; s a combination of things, I won' ; t go into now. He was a combination of attitudes and spirits and dispositions, some I liked some I didn' ; t like. He was a strong father, very domineering, everybody had to be under his wing but I was able to see the pasturing. I was able to work for his father for three years, so that gave me a long time to see a pastor at work. But it was King Sr. who probably influenced me in life at another level more than King Jr. HUNTLEY: Were you working with him while you were at Morehouse? PORTER: Yes, I did all my intern work. I was the janitor of the church, I was pulpit assistant, I was sort of a little close to Martin' ; s sister and the King' ; s daughter. I worked at every capacity you could think of at Ebenezer Church. HUNTLEY: You were there for three years? PORTER: Yes. HUNTLEY: After you finished up at Morehouse what did you do? PORTER: The week before I graduated I was called to a church in Detroit, which was shocking. I was ready to go the small country church in Georgia or down home Alabama. But one week from graduation I got this telegraph that said I needed to call the First Baptist Church of Hamtramck, Michigan, which is in the heart of Detroit. I went and stayed four and half years had a marvelous and glorious time with them for four and a half years. HUNTLEY: How was that transition? You' ; re a southern man coming from Alabama and Georgia going to Detroit. I know that many of the people in Detroit were of course from Alabama and the South. What was that experience like? PORTER: I look back on it and say it was a very, very great experience. I don' ; t see how I could pastor Detroit, it' ; s awful up their now. But it was an excellent church with about 1,000 members, just the right size for a person who had never pastured a church before. It was a good ministry in that I was wondering why did you send me to Detroit, I want the South even though it didn' ; t offer me anything at all I wanted to go to Alabama and Georgia why Michigan? One day the answer came to me. I was driving down the street in Hamtramck and almost had an accident with a White lady in another car. I put on brakes and backed up and went on my way. This lady caught up with me, rolled down her window, and says get over Nigger. Then I realized that I was up there getting ready to come South. I was about to be called a Nigger in Michigan [inaudible] HUNTLEY: Some would call the [inaudible] in the Northern cities up South. PORTER: I considered it as a training time because soon there after that the call came to come back to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: What is that experience like when you have spent now four years in Detroit and then finally you get a call to come back to Birmingham to a rather prominent church? What was that like? PORTER: As a young man in the ministry I' ; d hoped one day that city' ; s pastor would invite me back to be his associate. It' ; s the church I grew up in, 6th Avenue is the church I grew up in and loved dearly. My highest hope was to be an associate minister to the pastor of the church. He became ill and died and the church, I loved it so much invited me. I don' ; t think I was really ready to come until the day I gave up coming. Sometimes sons of churches can become so obsessed with the idea of one day become the pastor of the church that it sort of disqualifies them. But I knew the church had chose to invite me as pastor or two or three other candidates that they were looking at. It was a time of social change. I remember saying to myself that if they never call me I would have still loved the church like I always loved it. I think the moment I came to the conclusion that I was going to love them anyway as my church, I was ready to come. Until then I wasn' ; t ready. I was overwhelmed and proud that the folks who I grew up with who taught me as a child would invite me back to be the head pastor. HUNTLEY: At your installation service, Martin Luther King preached the sermon? PORTER: A Knock At Midnight. By this time he was in orbit, see we had met back in ' ; 55, ' ; 54 in September of ' ; 54 and this was many years later that we finally had to go to jail together. That was the only time King was jail, found guilty. We had broken a court injunction and marched. They carried that court case all the way to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court sent it back or overturned it or something. No, what they did, they wouldn' ; t hear it which meant they accepted the ruling of the lower court. We had to serve five days. They went to get all the folks up, I was part of the injunction not to march, and we had to go to jail. That was the only time he was ever convicted. HUNTLEY: Tell me about what you remember about that Sunday that he preached at your installation service. PORTER: Well--I think of the day all the arrangements and all and everything had to be in place I was very finicky in those days. We had to persist right on time everybody had to know where they were going. I was just overwhelmed by the day, I thought I would die. It was just that exciting you know and to have him agreeing to come and he was a world wide figure almost by that time you see. It was a very, very special day. HUNTLEY: So as a result of that relationship in ' ; 63 when SCLC came to town to demonstrate you were called on by Dr. King. Can you talk about that experience? PORTER: I came just six months prior to the big break, the demonstrations broke out in six months. My respect for Dr. King was of such that I would have done anything, any assignment he would have given me I would have done it without question. But it just so happened that the assignment was to lead a march to go to jail. I don' ; t want to get mixed up. The question is concerning the period when-- HUNTLEY: When he initially called you to come to Birmingham? PORTER: His brother A. D. was very active in our communications so often the communication was not directly with him but it was sometimes through his brother who was right there with him every day and night. He indicated through his brother that he wanted me, Nelson Smith and Mr. A. D. himself, to lead the march I believe on Palm Sunday. We agreed. Nelson Smith was not a great jail goer. But because A. D. who was always a provocative person suggested we would go together and we would call ourselves the three horses of the Apocalypse. Now what that meant was nothing, we didn' ; t know what it meant. It was just a high sounding word, the three horses of the Apocalypse. We were together after church at St. Paul, I believe, St. Paul' ; s Church. Then after we prayed our little sermon or prayer then we would go out and march. My church had always gotten out before other churches so I was there a long time waiting for my colleagues to show up. I was getting a bit nervous that A. D. and Nelson wouldn' ; t show up and I would be out there by myself. Finally they did show up and they began to sing the songs and people praying and some people were shouting and I believe I heard my mother out there crying. You can' ; t even convey the spirituality of those moments. They were very emotional moments it' ; s all you could do to just see the people. We didn' ; t have the loss of life or anything. But anyway out of a large crowd of maybe 1,200 people we were able to get about 40 people to volunteer to go. We all went up on the sidewalk and lined up because all of the marchers were on the sidewalk. You' ; d think that maybe they were in the middle of the street blocking traffic. No every march that was ever taken was done from the sidewalk. But once we got lined up on the sidewalk to walk I looked through the crowd and there was my daddy. I said oh Lord. Then my daddy started toward me. I said not now, not now daddy, not now. He took over and he said leave this thing alone and he was afraid I' ; d get hurt so he was telling me to leave it alone, leave this thing alone, segregation. So here in my big moment, here my daddy comes. He got as close as he could to me reached through the crowd and shook hands with me after that I could have walked all the way to Montgomery that time. HUNTLEY: Just when you needed it? PORTER: He shook hands with me when he went back. Before long we were in jail. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that experience just the arrest itself. How did that take place? PORTER: It was an agreed upon thing. In other words they knew what route you would take and all times they would designate where they would pick you up. They were smart I remember at one of the later marches that out of thousand people you could only get 40 to volunteer to march. Out of the people left in the church of a 1,000, you had 900 people or more left the church. But once we came out to line up to march and marched on, then all 900 would come and follow us. In other words, they considered us not involved but just friends. HUNTLEY: When the three of you were approached . . . PORTER: Okay, we got to the police and as we approached the police they got a bull horn and he says this march can go no further, either disband or you' ; re under arrest. It was a choice to walk away or be arrested. At that point I remember A. D. saying, pray Porter. We dropped to our knees. After he said you' ; re under arrest more or less we didn' ; t kneel then but that' ; s when A. D. said to me pray Porter. I started praying on camera. Once the prayer was over then we stood up and the police would escort us to the paddy wagon. HUNTLEY: Was it A. D. or was it Reverend Smith that said pray Porter? PORTER: A. D., A. D. was always the instigator. He had everybody doing whatever he thought they ought to be doing. So they paraded us, the never let you walk by yourself they would always catch you by the arm and pull you but there was not protruding on the floor and having the police drag you we would not allow that. King had us to understand that we were breaking the law and when the man said you' ; re under arrest, you must go peacefully and quietly to the paddy wagon. HUNTLEY: In the paddy wagon that you were placed in were there other people other than the three of you? PORTER: There may have been one or two others than you it was very small and tight back there so they couldn' ; t fit in but so many in the paddy wagon. On our way to jail we were being thrown from one side of the paddy wagon to the other. The guy was very upset who was driving and we were singing " ; We Shall Overcome." ; The more we would sing the more upset he would become. The more were able to see that he was upset the more we would sing. By the time they got to the city hall to the jail house he was going to open the door . . . I remember he opened the door and there was this big chorus, " ; We Shall Overcome." ; He pulled his billy club and said, y' ; all better cut out that singing or else. In order to come out of the paddy wagon you kind of got to dip your head and come out. Nelson stood back thinking about that for a while because in the back A. D. was saying sing, sing. But the driver was saying, stop singing and A. D. was saying sing. Nelson Smith, knowing his head would come out of the paddy wagon first, he told A. D. you better stop that G. D. saying because my head will come out first. A. D. was always in the background telling, sing, sing. He was the instigator. He made things happen. HUNTLEY: How long were you in jail? PORTER: We were in jail maybe, I was in jail longer than A. D. A. D. and Nelson started right away to get their deacons to come and get them out. My feeling was in that we led the folks into the jail we ought to stay in jail with them. But A. D. and Nelson Smith said they could be more effective outside. So it wasn' ; t long before deacons were there to take them out. They were there but about six or seven hours and I was the only one left and was able to stay with the people and at some point I did get out. HUNTLEY: Did you stay overnight? PORTER: Yes, yes, yes. HUNTLEY: During this particular time the movement of course was at it' ; s height. There were some difficulties after about a month of marching that . . . it lost some of it' ; s steam and there seemingly was the need to discuss how to reinvigorate the movement. PORTER: Well, it' ; s hard to keep excitement going and the people who had gone to jail were there once and some twice and you needed more people who would go to jail. There was some I remember very vividly a guy saying to me Reverend I can' ; t march today I got to work today. So thank God for that at least he was ready to go to his job on the day assigned, you know the feud they had to go. This guy said to him he couldn' ; t go because he had to work. We were running out of people to go back again so we went out to Miles College to get college kids but I gather that Miles might have been having a corporate fund drive which sending students out would thoroughly jeopardize them. So we couldn' ; t get anyone from Miles. I think on their way back, having their hands empty of Miles students, somebody came up with the bright idea, let' ; s go by the high school. I have to admit there was not any long range planning that we now a month from now we' ; d be . . . I know that the miracle of the movement was that there was no grand plan it just happened the time was right and it happened. HUNTLEY: So the children then were brought in and this sort of reinvigorates? PORTER: Oh that really set it off but I remember greatly the first part of that but I don' ; t know [inaudible] King came in and said the press is leaving, let' ; s get something going. That was the first time that I realized that God was not leading the group. I thought up to this point we were depending on God. But I found out it was the newspapers too. God and the newspapers. He told us to get something going the press was leaving. So I got to understand that you do need that. HUNTLEY: Some have said that Bull Conner played a very prominant role and the movement owes him as much credit as any other single individual for the success of the movement because of his tactics. How do you feel about that? PORTER: I like that but I don' ; t think they owe Bull Conner anything. No, I think that the time was right. I don' ; t think anybody made it happen. I think that if the climate in the South was of such that the South was totally opposed to it, it would have never happen. The time was right. You needed a man, King, you needed a Fred Shuttlesworth, you needed a Bull Conner. They constituted that the time was right. HUNTLEY: In September of ' ; 63 of course we had the bombing of Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. Of course, that was sort of the sister church of 6th Avenue. How did that impact upon your congregation? PORTER: It was Sunday morning when the bomb went off and we just started our services and they came in and told me that Sixteenth Street had been bombed. My first reaction was that we would be next. We' ; d done more to provoke this than Sixteenth Street. I was expecting them to throw a bomb, I didn' ; t think a bomb would be placed. All I thought about was somebody driving by throwing a bomb. So I said to them that any moment it could happen and that we kind of brought everything to closure the songs, the prayers and asked people to be dismissed as quickly as possible and for everybody to leave the church. Then I went on to the emergency room from the church that' ; s where I saw Chris McNair in the emergency room, they had carried his daughter there. HUNTLEY: I want to go just for minute to the incident that took place here in Birmingham. The three of you, A. D. King, Nelson Smith and yourself, of course history records that you led the march on Palm Sunday. There is a monument in the park that was erected supposedly as a result of that but those, the statues, does not depict the three of you. PORTER: The picture was found in the archives it was among the pictures and when they were planning the park it was the mayor I assume who wanted that picture, the picture of myself and A. D., to be put in granite or in stone. The picture was sent off to the sculptors to do it. Pictures of A. D. were sent to him, pictures of Nelson Smith and myself were sent to Washington to the sculptor. I was in Washington at that same time and went and sat in his studio for the statue and the statue was complete. It was really a marvel the whole body and everything they do it complete. They start off about that size and when they finish it its in the complete form of the statues so I sat for it. About six weeks later or just prior to the time when the statue was to be delivered I got a box, a big box in the mail. I opened the box and my head from the statue was in the box. HUNTLEY: Did you have any prior warning? PORTER: No. No inkling whatsoever. I was kind of proud of the fact, can you imagine yourself in stone. HUNTLEY: What did you think when you saw this? Did you think that this was just a duplicate and they were sending it to you? PORTER: I really didn' ; t know until I read the letter. See there was a note in there. Immediately I opened the note and the note said to me that he regretted very much but he had been ordered to cut the heads off the statues and put generic heads on. He could have just thrown it away but since I had sat for it and we' ; d talked and he had gotten to know me a little bit. He said I' ; ve been instructed to cut these heads off. HUNTLEY: Did he tell you who the instructions came from? PORTER: No, he didn' ; t but I knew that to have that done it had to have come from the very top. So I knew it had to be Fred or the mayor who would give that kind of instructions and I figured the mayor. No sure enough about one week before the statue was to arrive the mayor called me and asked me if he could come out and see me. Well I knew exactly what he really wanted was to tell me. So I told him no. Let me come down to your office, he was much more busy than I am so let me come down to your office. So I went down and he said to me that Abraham Woods and Fred Shuttlesworth had threatened him that if he did not cut the heads off the statues that they would both resign from the museum and boycott the building that was his threat. I didn' ; t hear . . . this is the mayor. I haven' ; t repeated that in front of too many people but the mayor said to me, that' ; s why he ordered the heads to me removed and that he was threatened by those two and in order to please them I suppose he agreed to cut the heads off. HUNTLEY: What was the rationale? What was their rationale for? PORTER: The rationale was that it shouldn' ; t be one person, it was a group of ministers and that was just symbolic, etc. I always wondered about that when I see Shuttlesworth' ; s huge statue out front. With him that was alright but with us rather than have any heads that folks could recognize they just put anybody' ; s head on there. So when the mayor told me I said well mayor you don' ; t ever have to worry about me because I was flattered to think of the idea of having been sculptured so I appreciate that and you' ; ll never hear from me again on it. That is how finally . . . and the rational was that it was not just us it was many who were symbolic. HUNTLEY: Would you accept that as being valid? PORTER: I guess there was some validity. I would not like to question motives. It seemed to me to be rather extreme considering one' ; s love for this institution and love for all the things that it is all about that you would for such a minor thing leave the institution and boycott. Not just leave the institution but to boycott. HUNTLEY: Would you look at that act as being rather historical and political? PORTER: I think it was political. I was more puzzled my the fact that the mayor was pushed into this dilemma when he had made it clear he was not afraid of the FBI, he was not afraid of the IRS, and yet somehow he was saying I' ; m scared of Abraham. I don' ; t know of anybody else who' ; s scared of Abraham. But I really accepted it on its face value because I still support the mayor and he' ; s my man and all that kind of stuff. He said they threatened him. But the threat to cut the heads off the statue. HUNTLEY: Well Rev. Porter I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit and talk with me today. You' ; ve been very frank. PORTER: Well like I said to the camera my diabetes are out of control. HUNTLEY: But you did a very good job. PORTER: But I' ; m glad for the tape and hope that these words can make future generations understand the times. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
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Rev. John T. Porter
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Rev. John T. Porter discusses working with Dr. King at Dexter Avenue and Ebenezer Baptist Churches. He was arrested with Nelson Smith, A. D. King as a result of his involvement in the Movement.
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19970326P
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Dexter Avenue Baptist Church (Montgomery, Ala.)
Ebenezer Baptist Church (Atlanta, Ga.)
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1997-03-26
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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James T. Montgomery
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JTMontgomery1995.xml
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Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011
University Hospital (Birmingham, Ala.)
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
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5.4 September 22, 1995 Dr. James T. Montgomery 19950922M 1:14:50 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham African Americans in medicine Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 University Hospital (Birmingham, Ala.) King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 James T. Montgomery Horace Huntley Video 1:|22(11)|43(10)|58(8)|71(10)|84(10)|99(9)|114(9)|126(6)|142(1)|154(5)|165(7)|182(6)|193(3)|221(1)|235(4)|249(6)|264(5)|281(1)|291(13)|307(6)|322(14)|337(10)|351(7)|368(15)|381(9)|400(15)|416(1)|428(1)|452(3)|469(5)|486(14)|500(1)|515(1)|526(1)|541(13)|559(10)|576(11)|594(6)|609(5)|628(4)|648(7)|661(11)|673(1)|690(2)|703(9)|715(10)|732(13)|746(9)|762(14)|777(9)|797(14)|815(3)|829(9)|848(2)|859(3)|875(12)|888(7)|902(6)|919(8)|933(4)|947(11)|966(16)|978(11)|991(10)|1006(1)|1021(2)|1038(3)|1053(6)|1066(9)|1083(6)|1101(6)|1114(11)|1131(9)|1144(3) 0 https://youtu.be/djFlbf3ZhEs YouTube video English 0 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Dr. James T. Montgomery for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project. Dr. James T. Montgomery is introduced. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history interview African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 23 Family Background Thank you. I just want to start by asking some general kinds of questions on your background. Montgomery states that his family were native to Alabama, and that he was born in Atmore along with three brothers and two sisters. His family moved to Birmingham in 1936. Atmore (Ala.) ; Beatrice (Ala.) ; Bellville (Ala.) ; Grocery store employee African American families 183 Educational Background Tell me what was Rosedale High School like. Montgomery describes his experience at Rosedale High School and the surrounding community. He states that he afterwards received scholarships to attend Morehouse College, but he struggled due to the differing educational standards. African American college students Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; Rosedale High School (Homewood, Ala.) 528 Medical School at Howard University At what point did you decide that you were going to medical school? Montgomery explains that he went to medical school at Howard University because he had done pre-med at Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia. However, from 1947 to 1949, he taught at A.H. Parker High School in Birmingham in order to afford the tuition. He compares and contrasts the social climates of the two cities, stating that Atlanta was more progressive and Birmingham more segregated. A.H. Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; African Americans--Segregation ; Howard University. College of Medicine ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) African American teachers ; medical school 932 Voter Registration Were there any efforts to organize voter registration or any other efforts that maybe worked to change that status quo? Montgomery states that efforts to help the Black community register to vote began well before the Civil Rights era, with figures such as Emory Jackson working on the issue since Montgomery was young. Benson, Morris ; Jackson, Emory ; Montgomery, B.M. ; Voter registration Voter registration--United States 1054 Finishing Medical School & ; Return to Birmingham How was your transition from Birmingham to D.C.? Montgomery details his experience of completing the medical program studying cardiology at Howard University. He describes the ethnic makeup of the students in his classes over the years, which included Jewish and White men, to disprove the notion that Black institutions were also segregated at the time. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Brown, Kelly ; Cardiology ; Holy Family Hospital ; Montgomery, Althea Palmer Birmingham (Ala.) ; Holy Family Community Hospital (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Howard University. College of Medicine 1456 Relationships with Doctors and Patients How did you relate to white physicians at the time? Montgomery states that there were only a few Black doctors in Birmingham, and he explains that it was common for Black patients to be treated in white hospitals, but were put in segregated wards. African American physicians ; Holy Family Hospital 1686 Teaching at the University of Alabama School of Medicine About 1960 or '61, we talked about it a lot in the Black Medical Society. Montgomery states that he was part of The Black Medical Society, which was affiliated with the National Medical Association. He was also the first Black physician to become staff at the University as Assistant Professor of Medicine. American Board of Internal Medicine ; American College of Physicians ; Fromeyer, Walter ; Jefferson County Medical Society (Ala.) ; Medical College of Alabama ; Stewart, Robert ; The Black Medical Society African American physicians ; Medical education--Societies, etc. ; National Medical Association (U.S.) 2195 Experiences at Other Birmingham Hospitals So how long did it take before you were accepted at other hospitals? Montgomery details how the University Hospital was more progressive at the time by allowing Black physicians to practice at the hospital, which he attributes to Dr. Walter Fromeyer, Dr. Joseph Volker, and Dr. S. Richardson Hill. Baptist Medical Centers of Birmingham ; Fromeyer, Walter ; Hill, S. Richardson (Samuel Richardson), 1923-2003 ; UAB Hospital (Birmingham, Ala.) ; University Hospital (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Volker, Joseph F. African Americans in medicine ; Hill, S. Richardson (Samuel Richardson), 1923-2003 ; UAB Hospital (Birmingham, Ala.) 2454 Supporting the Movement Politically, Financially, and Medically Tell me, this period, as you said it was a very, very interesting period, and I know that you had some relationship with the other things that are happening in Birmingham with the changing of the guard, for lack of a better term. Montgomery states that his support of the Movement came in financial backing, and was Fred Shuttlesworth's family physician. He became interested in voter registration issues, and worked to promote the Voter Education Project. In 1966, he ran for the legislature for the Democratic party, but was ultimately not nominated. Lee, Henry ; Voter Education Project, Inc. (Atlanta, Ga.) African Americans--Politics and government--20th century 2766 Influential Campaigns for the Movement I just want to mention a few events and a few individuals and if you would just, off the top of your head, give me what comes to mind. Montgomery describes how the Freedom Riders, the Selective Buying Campaign, and the demonstrations in 1963 contributed to the overall success of the Movement. Freedom Riders ; Selective Buying Campaign Achievements of the civil rights revolution ; Boycotts--Alabama 2925 Public Opinion Towards Demonstrations Is that why you think they were not in favor of the demonstrations? Montgomery speculates that some people opposed demonstrations because they benefitted from the existing social structure, and that there was a resentment towards " ; outsiders" ; who were coming into the area to facilitate social change. He also describes how Fred Shuttlesworth and David Vann helped the success of the Movement. Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Vann, David Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Public opinion 3205 The Children's March & ; Bull Connor Can you comment on the use of children in the march? Montgomery describes how the inclusion of children in the marches helped bring new life into the Movement since many active demonstrators had already been arrested. He then briefly characterizes Bull Connor. Carver High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Children's Crusade African American children ; Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) 3337 16th Street Baptist Church The bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church? Montgomery recalls the devastation the bombing caused in the community, but that it drew attention on a national scale of the issues in Birmingham, increasing inter-racial dialogue on the issues of race. Johnson, Lyndon B. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 3524 Bomb Threat You and your wife were both known to be supportive and to be active. Did you ever receive any threats? Montgomery recalls how he received one bomb threat ; he also remarks that that the majority of people who helped with the Movement were Baptist ministers, such as Reverend Samuel M. Davis. African Methodist Episcopal Church ; Davis, Samuel M. ; Death threats Bomb threats 3606 Medical Practice in Birmingham during the Movement How did your involvement in the Movement impact upon your practice? Montgomery treated various Civil Rights leaders including Fred Shuttlesworth and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. He became a founding member of the Community Affairs Committee, which served to improve the relations with the police as well as campaign for integration in hospitals. Community Affairs Committee ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Pitts, Lucious ; Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Developing practice ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Physicians (General practice) ; Segregation in hospitals ; Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 4023 Paving the Way for Black Students at UAB And I asked him, I said, " ; Dick, I want to know how many Blacks are going to be in this class? Montgomery describes how he advocated on behalf of African American students for UAB for enrollment in the medical program. Frommeyer, Walter B. ; Hill, S. Richardson (Samuel Richardson), 1923-2003 ; University of Alabama at Birmingham ; Volker, Joseph F. African American medical students ; University of Alabama at Birmingham. University of Alabama School of Medicine 4194 Local Activism and Involvement Did you actually practice until 1984? Montgomery details his role in opening opportunities for Black physicians to work in hospitals and his part in getting an equal number of Black and white members on the panel about Bonita Carter's death. Arrington, Richard ; Birmingham (Ala.). Mayor ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Carter, Bonita ; Vann, David African American physicians ; Arrington, Richard ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Societal transformations ; Vann, David 4469 Conclusion of Interview Dr. Montgomery, I want to thank you for taking this time. Conclusion of the interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Oral History Dr. James T. Montgomery discusses supporting the Movement politically, financially and medically. He served as Rev. Shuttlesworth's family physician and treated Dr. King. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Dr. James T. Montgomery for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. Today is September 22, 1995. Thank you Dr. Montgomery for taking time out of your schedule and allowing us to come into your home to talk with you today. MONTGOMERY: I' ; m only too happy to see you. HUNTLEY: Thank you. I just want to start by asking some general kinds of questions on your background. Tell me a bit about your parents. Your mother and father, were they from Birmingham? MONTGOMERY: My mother, I' ; m sure was born in Beatrice, Alabama. I think my father was born in Belleville. Someone asked me the other day about this I couldn' ; t think of Belleville. But to the best of my understanding. But they both were native Alabamians. HUNTLEY: Where is Belleville and Beatrice? MONTGOMERY: It' ; s somewhere between here, near Greenville, Alabama. It' ; s below Montgomery. And, of course, Atmore is near the coast near Mobile. That' ; s where I was born. HUNTLEY: You were born in Atmore? MONTGOMERY: In Atmore, correct. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have? MONTGOMERY: Well, originally I had three brothers and two sisters. HUNTLEY: Where were you in that group? MONTGOMERY: I was number four. I had two brothers and one sister older than I was. And, then, I had one brother and one sister younger. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your parent' ; s education. MONTGOMERY: Now, my mother went to the 8th or 9th grade I believe. She really came up to Miles, here in Birmingham where they had a high school program. I guess this must have been in the early teens of the 1900s. And she had taught in elementary schools somewhere near Beatrice and Belleville areas. My father, to the best of my knowledge, finished the 3rd or 4th grade. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your father do? MONTGOMERY: As a youngster my father was a very good farmer. He had farmed down at Atmore, Alabama. I can remember even today the very large watermelons that he used to grow. Of course, I think they were the largest I' ; ve ever seen in my life. We lived in Atmore until I was the age of 10. When we came to Birmingham, he went into the grocery store business. He had really been in the grocery store business before then in Brewton and Atmore and other places. But, we came to Birmingham in 1936 and he and one of his brothers had a grocery store in Homewood where they worked and lived and did business until their deaths. One died in 1960 and Uncle Charles, who was very important in my life, died in 1966. HUNTLEY: So you lived in the Rosedale area? MONTGOMERY: Yes. I went to Rosedale High School. HUNTLEY: Tell me what was Rosedale High School like? What do you remember about it? MONTGOMERY: Oh, that' ; s a very interesting question. Rosedale High School was a very small school. It really went from grade 1 through grade 12, but it was called Rosedale High School. We didn' ; t have over 400 or perhaps 500 students. There were only 38 students in my graduating class, but we all knew each other. There were not that many kids who lived in Rosedale proper, so the kids really came in on the bus from Oxmoor or Mason City. From Overton and they made up over half of the student body. Because that was the only school that the Jefferson County School System at that time had on the southside. They may have had Wenonah at the time. I remember they had Hooper City on the northside. I remember going there for the ball games and that sort of thing. But it was a small school where everybody knew everybody. HUNTLEY: What about your community? How would you characterize the community of Rosedale? MONTGOMERY: Well, it was the usual poor, basically Black community where nobody had really spent a lot of time getting much education. Nobody went to school much past high school level. Many did not get that far. I believe by the time my oldest sister finished, I believe in 1936 or ' ; 37, her class was about the first that began to go to college out of Rosedale. I was told by one my teachers, and I have no proof of this, that my sister, when she began teaching school in the middle section of Alabama was the first person at Rosedale who had started teaching school. And she had done that after finishing junior college at Miles College. But, my uncle happened to be principal of Rosedale High School. I don' ; t know when he started but he was their when he retired in 1966. It was a small school. It was intimate, we all knew each other and we knew the teachers very well. I cannot say it was a very good school in terms of what you learned, because when I arrived at Morehouse as a freshman in 1943, I found out that we had not learned very much. HUNTLEY: What was the transition like from Rosedale to Morehouse? MONTGOMERY: Very difficult, particularly during the first semester. I remember coming back home at Christmas time and a friend of mine, I went to Sunday School at Bethel AME Church. And a friend of mine asked me how I liked college and I told him I didn' ; t like it very much. The reason was when I arrived at Morehouse we had kids who came from Chicago, came down from Philadelphia and New York. They were so far ahead of us. I was supposed to have been a good student at Rosedale. I had A' ; s that were stretched from Loveman' ; s below downtown all the way back to Rosedale. But I didn' ; t have much knowledge. I can remember not knowing the difference between who and whom. I thought you went by sound. I don' ; t use it correctly all the time even now, but I know the difference. But, I didn' ; t know the difference before going to Morehouse. So it was a big leap. But the big leap probably was the first semester. HUNTLEY: How did you overcome that? MONTGOMERY: Working hard. I always knew what I was in college for and that' ; s the thing that as I look at the young generation I worry about. I always knew that if I didn' ; t want to do a good job for myself, I thought I at least owed it to my parents and particularly to my mother who was dead. She was so interested in education she had just almost burst out. She wanted us to learn something. To go to school and to have opportunities. And I thought even for James T, I should have done it for my parents. It made the first semester rather difficult. I went to Morehouse on a scholarship. Now it wasn' ; t a lot of money, but the first semester tuition at Morehouse at that time was $40. That' ; s not your room and board, that' ; s your tuition. And I had a scholarship that covered the first semester. That' ; s the only semester at Morehouse when I did not make a B average. And it wasn' ; t renewed the next semester because of that. Later I got other scholarships at Morehouse, but that' ; s the adjustment I was talking about. It was not easy. It was difficult. But, by the second semester and, then, the second year, what the kids from Chicago, Philadelphia and New York had above where we were, the playing field had begin to level. HUNTLEY: Were there others from Rosedale that attended Morehouse? MONTGOMERY: Not at that time. I think I was the first person from Rosedale High School to graduate from Rosedale and went to Morehouse. Subsequently, there was a judge, I think in Selma, James Ferris who was at Rosedale and went to Morehouse after I did. There was a doctor who was the head of cardiovascular or neurosurgery, I' ; m not quite sure now, at Meharry who unfortunately passed several years ago, named Todd, who also followed me to Morehouse 3-4 years late. HUNTLEY: At what point did you decide that you were going to medical school? MONTGOMERY: Well, I don' ; t know whether I decided to go to medical school or circumstances decided for me to go to medical school. I always wanted to study law. As I said to you before we started the interview, I had an uncle who discouraged me from doing that. He felt the future was not very bright for Black lawyers in 1943. What actually happened was, I was deciding between getting drafted into the army or going to school. And I decided to take pre-med and to go to medical school hoping that this would enable me not to have to go into the army. That' ; s exactly what happened and once I got into the area I began to enjoy science. Although, as I said to you before the interview started, in my early life, social studies, politics always interested me more than medicine. HUNTLEY: So after you finished Morehouse what did you do? Did you go right into medical school? MONTGOMERY: No, I did not. It takes money to go to medical school, even in 1947. I finished Morehouse after having been the area and I came home. I worked at Parker High School where I taught biology and chemistry from 1947 to 1949. This was one of the most rewarding periods in my life. I learned more from the kids whom I taught than they probably learned from me. It gave me a chance to learn more about people and about their lives. Because although none of us had anything in the old days, my life in some ways had been more blessed than their lives. HUNTLEY: When you came back after Morehouse did you live in Rosedale? MONTGOMERY: I lived in Rosedale until I got married in 1950. At that time I began to live with my wife' ; s grandparents and my wife, of course, out in Woodlawn. I lived in Rosedale up until 1950. HUNTLEY: Now, this is a period, in the 1950s Birmingham was a place that was totally segregated. You had gone off to Morehouse, you had come back, now you were teaching. Now you would decide upon what you would do for the rest of your life. Why medicine? MONTGOMERY: Well, the decision for medicine was made at Morehouse. I had done pre-med. I had finished with a B.S. degree with a major in biology and I knew I wanted to go to medical school. I had applied to medical school earlier and really got accepted to medical school three times before I went. It was not because I didn' ; t want to go, it was because it took money to go and I didn' ; t have any. HUNTLEY: Where were you accepted? MONTGOMERY: Meharry once and Howard twice. I was also not accepted at Meharry one year. I will always remember that. I was a senior at Morehouse and there was a good friend of mine named Beck. And Beck' ; s father had taught pulmonary disease in the Department of Internal Medicine at Meharry for maybe 15-20 years. If I may say, I had done very well at Morehouse as a student. And while we were waiting to hear from medical schools, one morning we received a telegram from Meharry which stated, " ; Please let us know if your father had finished Meharry." ; I was just fuming because Beck also got the same telegram and I thought that was very unfair for Beck' ; s father, who taught at Meharry to get a letter saying " ; Let us know if your father finished." ; I didn' ; t know what my father going to Meharry had to do with anything. And I cannot type, but I remember sitting down and typing a letter with my pecking two fingers, on somebody' ; s typewriter to Meharry, telling them my daddy didn' ; t know there was a school named Meharry. HUNTLEY: Was that when you were not accepted? MONTGOMERY: Right. I was accepted by them the next year. I was accepted by Howard twice during this time I was teaching school at Parker High School. HUNTLEY: Was Beck accepted? MONTGOMERY: Yes. Beck was accepted. HUNTLEY: Did he go? MONTGOMERY: Yes. He went to Meharry. Now, whether he went that year or the next year, I can' ; t remember. But he was accepted. HUNTLEY: So you would eventually go to Howard? MONTGOMERY: Yes. I went to Howard. HUNTLEY: How would you describe Howard when you had arrived? You had gone to the big city of Atlanta? MONTGOMERY: Well, Atlanta and Birmingham we thought was almost the same. Not in size but the same level as metropolitan areas go at that time. But, of course, you probably know by now, that Bull Conner and his bunch made a decision that they didn' ; t want Birmingham to grow too much because they didn' ; t want to lose control of this city. There were people in Atlanta, the editor of the Atlanta Constitution, I think his name was Ralph McGill, and the mayor named Hartfield at the time, I think made a decision to make Atlanta a progressive city. I think that' ; s when the idea of Atlanta, the city too busy to hate, during the 1940s was started. They began to work and make Atlanta a much better city and they succeeded, of course. HUNTLEY: Tell me about Birmingham prior to you going to Howard. You were now here, you had taught for a couple of years and Birmingham was a rather rough place as far as race was concerned. MONTGOMERY: Everything, as you probably already know, was totally segregated. Now that didn' ; t seem like it was a difficult problem and I' ; ll tell you why. We had never known life any other way. It wasn' ; t that we didn' ; t want it, but we weren' ; t like Ronald Reagan, who said, " ; Before we knew we had a race problem." ; We always knew we had a race problem. But Birmingham was totally segregated and it was an accepted thing. We accepted riding in the back of bus. We accepted the fact that you may go downtown to buy clothes and in some stores they didn' ; t want you to try the clothes on. We accepted second class citizenship then because we didn' ; t know what to do about it. We wanted to do something but I don' ; t think anyone knew what to do about it and stay alive. HUNTLEY: Were there any efforts to organize voter registration or any other efforts that may be worked to change that status quo? MONTGOMERY: Yes. Voter registration is not a new thing, and I will talk to you about that after I got back home later on. But, it was not a new thing. I can remember my uncle, whose name was B. M. Montgomery, who had worked to get Black people registered to vote in Homewood, as long as I can remember. Even when I was quite young. Now, another fellow who died recently, named Morris Benson, who was also very helpful in trying to get Blacks to register to vote. There weren' ; t many of us. There were so few of us that I can remember when I was teaching school and the candidate who was running for office came up from Rosedale down to Homewood to see me personally and ask me for my vote. There were very few voters in my community at that time. But, there were efforts on the part of people to get registered to vote. People may think that the whole effort started in 1963 or ' ; 59. It did not start then. It started way back there. But there were so many restrictions that it' ; s very difficult to break down the walls that they had put up and people really were afraid to do anything because your life wasn' ; t worth anything and fear had a lot to do with it. But there were efforts made to get people to vote and I can remember Emory Jackson worked on this sort of thing in Birmingham as long as I can remember and other people had worked on voter registration. There was a fellow down at Parker High School named Henry Williams who used to take the teachers down there to register them one at a time and he was surprised to hear of the number of teachers who were not even registered to vote. At that time we didn' ; t have the trouble they had in Selma where someone bothered you about registering to vote, it was just that apathy. There was that feeling by many people that " ; They don' ; t count your votes anyway." ; And people bought that sort of thing. You see, the White man sold us a bag of goods and we bought it lock, stock and barrel, without a doubt. HUNTLEY: How was your transition then from Birmingham to D.C.? MONTGOMERY: It was not very difficult. After going to Morehouse I had learned how to study and I had learned how to approach subject matter because Morehouse had done a very good job for me and I' ; ll always be grateful for that. Out of all the institutions I have been, I' ; m more grateful to Morehouse than the other institutions really because they took me from Rosedale, where I didn' ; t know the difference between " ; who and whom" ; and did teach me the difference between the two. But going to medical school was not a difficult thing, not at all. The only thing that happened that was difficult my freshman year was that I got ill and I had an infection in one of my kidneys and I was very ill during that freshman year. I had to decided between dropping out of medical school or staying in. I did not have anything in mind to go back to, so I had to fight it out. At the end of my freshman year I had a kidney removed. The infected kidney was removed at the end of my first year which was in 1950. Academically it was not a difficult thing. I really was inspired. I remember standing up on the steps at Howard University in September 1949, and I remember there were three or four Jewish boys in the class, very fine fellows. One of them, by the name of Copeland was standing behind me and we were taking the class picture and he said to me, " ; James, may I call you James?" ; I said, " ; Sure." ; He said, " ; I want to tell you something." ; He looked around and saw mostly Black people there, in my mind at least. And he said, " ; I might not be leading this class when this thing is over, but the person who is leading will know I' ; m breathing down his neck." ; I decided that afternoon that the only place he was going to finish was somewhere behind me. And, of course, he finished a long way behind me. But those kind of things inspired me to do the best that I could. HUNTLEY: That' ; s an interesting comment because you are suggesting that there were Jews in your class at Howard and even today, people are talking about Black institutions being segregated. MONTGOMERY: They have never been segregated. There were White people, one of the White fellows that came down to Morehouse when I was there, between ' ; 43 and ' ; 47. And although they were doing studies or there to learn or writing books, they were there and they were enrolled as students at that time. There were always some contact between the kids and Georgia Tech and other White schools in Georgia and Morehouse and Spelman. But the meetings always took place at Morehouse or Spelman, of course. You didn' ; t meet at the White institutions. But there were contacts at that time. HUNTLEY: Did you ever consider not returning to Birmingham when you finished medical school? MONTGOMERY: Not really. I had people in Kansas City, Missouri trying to encourage me to come to Kansas City. I had some other people in Gary, Indiana who tried to encourage me to come there by the time I was finished with my residency at Homer G. Phillips in St. Louis. But, I had really always thought of coming back home to be honest with you. It was made much easier for me than for most other fellows who were in training along with me and let me tell you what the reason is for that. I had married a very wonderful young lady, my wife Althea Palmer Montgomery at the end of my freshman year. If I had to tell people away from Birmingham, fellows at least, when they' ; re in profession, what I think about young professionals, particularly fellows, away training, is that they often marry some young lady that wants to live somewhere else. And I suggest to anybody who don' ; t know, you ought to marry, live where your wife want to live. HUNTLEY: To solidify the relationship? MONTGOMERY: Well, it just makes for more peace and harmony. Since you asked me that question, I can tell you about an incident which occurred to me while attending the American College of Physician meeting in Boston. one of my former professors, named Dr. Kelly Brown, one of the best diagnosticians I' ; ve ever known, saw me in Boston and he said to me, " ; Montgomery, you getting through with your training now" ; . I was doing some work in cardiology at the Beth Israel Hospital in Boston at that time. HUNTLEY: What year was this? MONTGOMERY: This was in 1957. I met him at this meeting and he said, " ; Montgomery, where are you going to practice?" ; I said, " ; I' ; m going back to Birmingham." ; He said, " ; Now, I thought you had some sense." ; I still remember that. But I always planned to come back home, really. HUNTLEY: That reminds me. As I was finishing graduate school, people were asking me, " ; Why Birmingham? Why would you go back to Birmingham?" ; So I can understand that. You returned to Birmingham in 1957. Alabama had outlawed the NAACP from operating in the state in 1956. MONTGOMERY: That' ; s correct. HUNTLEY: The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights had been organized to fill that void in 1956. I believe it was in December of ' ; 56 that Fred Shuttlesworth' ; s home was bombed and the Alabama Christian Movement was looked upon as rabble rousers at the time. You are coming back into this atmosphere. There' ; s only one place really that you can actually practice, right? MONTGOMERY: That' ; s correct. I' ; ve always been very grateful for the bridge that helped me across and that' ; s what Holy Family Hospital did. Had there been no Holy Family Hospital, no matter what I wanted to do, I could not have come back to Birmingham. You cannot go off and spend eight years of your life in medical school and residency, go off to Harvard and spend the better part of a year in cardiology and decide I' ; m going back and now I' ; m going to practice in a hospital. You have to have a hospital to take care of sick patients. And Community, Holy Family later became Community, but Holy Family gave me that opportunity and I' ; m very grateful for that. HUNTLEY: How did you relate to White physicians at the time? MONTGOMERY: When I came back to Birmingham the only White physician I knew was one who had treated me once or twice, Dr. Essie F. Harris, Sr., had been my family physician, but for some reason this fellow had treated me once or twice and he was the only one I knew, a Dr. Bill Robinson. I did not know any other White physicians at the time. Now, I began to meet them because there were White physicians who practiced at Holy Family Hospital. They all were in general practice and they were admitting patients, mostly miners, UMW patients to the hospital. HUNTLEY: Were all of these Black patients? MONTGOMERY: All of them were Black patients. But the White doctors always took care of 90% of the Black patients first. At that time there was no choice, because there were very few Black doctors here. HUNTLEY: How many Black doctors were here when you returned? MONTGOMERY: Nine or ten. We stayed at the number for ten years. HUNTLEY: So if you had a patient with a particular problem, a specialized problem, did you send those patients to other doctors. MONTGOMERY: As I was saying, you asked me about my relationship with other doctors. There were White doctors who always would come out to Community Hospital in consultation for a neurosurgical problem or not to much for medical problems because, thanks to the Lord I can take care of most of those myself as a certified internist. But there were neurological problems and what I knew of those who came out there, also the radiologist there, were White physician. The neurologist, Dr. A. C. Young, I mention his name because he was one of the people who recommended me. I really needed five people to get into the medical society. And others like Dr. H. Russelcoft who died recently, very fine men. My contact with a White physician in this direction. There was a Dr. Stanley Kahn who was out there every Wednesday seeing UMW patients as a consultant. And, then I began to learn more and more through their coming out to the hospital to do consultation work in some of the specialty fields. HUNTLEY: Although Black doctors could not practice at the white hospitals, Black patients were admitted to the white hospitals. MONTGOMERY: Oh, yes. They always admitted Black patients in the usual segregated, undesirable quarters. HUNTLEY: Were there efforts on the part of Black doctors to eventually become part of the staffs of other hospitals? MONTGOMERY: I don' ; t think any effort much was made. In all honestly, Dr. R. C. Stewart had some kind of prejudices to delivering babies at Carraway Methodist Hospital. To the best of my knowledge he was not on the staff as a staff doctor. Dr. Bullware had worked with him over at Sloss field clinic where they delivered a lot of Black doctor' ; s patients. That was long before my time. And he had gotten some right to come in and deliver some of his complicated patients over at Carraway. But nobody, to my knowledge, that tried to become a member of an active staff, or even an associate staff member, prior to 1963. About 1960 or ' ; 61 we talked about it a lot in the Black medical society. HUNTLEY: Was that the Black medical society? MONTGOMERY: That was the Black medical society. It was affiliated with the national medical association. But the (Inaudible) district had been here for years. Dr. Bryant and that group had started it a long time before I came. I guess when I was a young fellow. Anyway, we talked in the (Inaudible) district about trying to--integration was in the air at the time, it was in the early sixties. And we talked about all of us deciding to go and apply all together to the medical society. And we talked about it at CME for about two years and nothing happened. HUNTLEY: What do you mean nothing happened? MONTGOMERY: Nobody really applied. HUNTLEY: Why did no one applied? MONTGOMERY: I can' ; t answer that because I don' ; t know. I can only tell you what happened when I applied. HUNTLEY: Let me just ask you this before you tell me when you applied. When you had the discussions of everyone applying, was there ever a part of the conversation that said we' ; re going to apply on this particular date or was it sort of left in the air for one to decide? MONTGOMERY: I think it was mostly discussed like a lot of things and nobody really came to any conclusion about what day we were going to do this. I know it was mostly in the discussion phase. Because what actually happened, early or late ' ; 61 or ' ; 62 there were these White physicians whom I knew, one of them I remember was a specialist in thoracic surgery. I remember him telling me on the elevator at Community Hospital, I think it was still Holy Family at that time, that " ; We want to get you and Robert Stewart in the medical society, but the time ain' ; t right yet." ; And I listened to that for about six more months. HUNTLEY: What did he mean by " ; the time not being right?" ; MONTGOMERY: Well, like everything about integration, the time has never been right until you either force your way in or someone like Rosa Parks sit on the bus and go to jail. It has always been the time is not right, wait a while longer. Go back to church and sing some more, pray some more and wait. HUNTLEY: What was your reaction when he said the time was not right? MONTGOMERY: Well, I told you I waited another five or six months. And at that time I decided it was time to apply to the Jefferson County Medical Society and that' ; s what I did. HUNTLEY: Was it necessary to have sponsors at that time? MONTGOMERY: Yes. It is my understanding that prior to 1960s, and I cannot prove this, that they used to have to have two people to recommend you for membership. But when I applied, you needed five members to recommend you. Now, when this started I cannot guarantee it one way or the other. I do know I was just told this. You have to have five people who are members of the society to recommend you for membership. And I was very lucky to get four. I must have written 25 letters to people that I had learned, who had came out to Community Hospital to work, who knew of my qualifications and knew whether or not I was a qualified physician or not. And most of the people backed off. They explained to me how they got burned when they spoke out for integration or something in Boston or " ; Please don' ; t ask me to do this." ; Now, I understood what their problem was. I never told them that. I said, " ; Well, if you can live with yourself, you go ahead." ; But I knew what the problem was. They had to live in Mountain Brook and I didn' ; t. But luckily, four physicians out that 25 wrote letters almost immediately, within a month or so. But then, I needed the fifth one and nobody came forth. I called them again and they said, " ; Jim, please don' ; t ask me to do this." ; And there was a Dr. Casey who was chief pathologist at the Baptist hospital group at the time. Montclair was at Highland at that time and at West End Baptist, which is now Princeton. And he was in Russia on a sabbatical where he was doing some research or working with them in their programs and did not come back to Birmingham for about six months after I applied. My letter was on his desk when he got back and he called me the same day. He said, " ; I' ; ll write this letter today." ; And that was the fifth person that I needed. Several months later I was called in by the credential committee for an interview. HUNTLEY: This then opened up the possibilities of you practicing in other " ; white" ; hospitals? MONTGOMERY: Not really. That' ; s another step. In a way, though, it might have opened it up. I remember I went over to University Hospital to talk to them about coming to the Grand Rounds. The Department of Medicine had Grand Rounds every Thursday morning and I talked to a fellow named, Wally Fromeyer, who later became a very good friend of mine. I asked him, " ; I want to come to Grand Rounds." ; And I even agreed to sit in the back, which is something I had never done voluntarily before. And was very nice and courteous, but no. After that time nobody had thought you would get to integrate a white hospital staff. But, a few years later, I got certified by the American Board of Internal Medicine where people eagerly sent letters. These same people who refused to send letters to the medical society, because these letters were being sent to Philadelphia. And after I had passed the American Board of Internal Medicine, I wanted to become a Fellow in the American College of Physicians. That' ; s the next level of accomplishment in your specialty field. And, as a result of that, before I could call these people for recommendations for the American college of Physicians, they called me. " ; Jim, could I recommend you for the American College of Physicians" ; . There were people who were just unable to in their own minds to recommend me for the local medical society one or two years earlier. But, after I had been recommended to the American College of Physicians, I became associate member in 1964. Anyway, I went over and they were going to have a regional meeting of the American College of Physicians in New Orleans, Louisiana. I received a letter concerning this. I called the hotel in New Orleans and informed them I was a Black physician and informed them that I was going to the regional meeting and wanted to know if that was going to be any problem for me? And they told me, " ; We' ; ll be happy to have you come to the meeting, but we will ask you to take your meals in your room." ; So I would never go and take meals in my room, not in 1964, I would have taken a room in ' ; 57 if they had asked me. Anyway, I went to talk to Wally Fromeyer, who was chief of medicine at University of Alabama School of Medicine at the time. One Saturday afternoon after I had finished with my patients in the office, while sitting there, I wanted to see what he felt about this. I told him what they asked me to do and I wanted to see exactly where he was coming from. He said to me, " ; Jim, I don' ; t think I would go under those circumstances. Why don' ; t you wait until next year when they have the meeting in Atlantic City and you won' ; t have that problem there" ; . So, while I was sitting there talking to Wally Fromeyer, I said, " ; Wally, when am I going to start practicing medicine in this hospital?" ; And, to my surprise, he said, " ; Jim, when are you going to apply?" ; And, from that time, there were no obstacle. I applied and within a month or two when they went through the credential committee, I was admitted to the staff and received an appointment as an Assistant Professor of Medicine. HUNTLEY: This is in 1964? MONTGOMERY: In ' ; 64. HUNTLEY: And you' ; re the first Black physician to make application and that application being accepted at that point? MONTGOMERY: To my knowledge, that is correct. I' ; m not to sure if anybody applied before. As I said before, we accepted a secondary status. When I went to talk to Wally Fromeyer that afternoon, I wasn' ; t talking about me. My thinking wasn' ; t to the point that they' ; re ready to let me come in here. I was thinking about my sons who wanted to practice medicine, your sons and anybody else' ; s son who might want to come one day and practice medicine at that institution. Somebody had to begin to knock on the door and to my surprise, my knocking opened the door. HUNTLEY: So how long did it take before you were accepted at other hospitals? MONTGOMERY: Well, let me tell you about that. University Hospital was the only one I think was really willing to take a Black physician on who they could not find a way to find him not well qualified, by training, by board certifications, or by becoming a Fellow in the American College of Physicians. The other hospitals were standing back and waiting. I know the Baptist group in particular and Baptist West End Hospital at the time is now Princeton, they had said that they would not take any Medicare patients. They were saying " ; No, we' ; re not going to do that." ; Because Medicare had said, you had to integrate your staff, your doctor staff, integrate your patients. And first they weren' ; t going to take any money. But they found out that the White patients had the same color Medicare cards as the Black patients. And they always understand the bottom line. They have no problem with that. And, they called and asked me to join their staff. HUNTLEY: Baptist did? MONTGOMERY: Yes. Princeton did, which I did. I had patients there for maybe a ten year period. And, after I got on Princeton' ; s Hospital staff, you automatically get an appointment to the courtesy staff at Montclair, the other hospital which opened about that time of the next year. HUNTLEY: What about your experience at East End? MONTGOMERY: Well, now the East End thing was very interesting. I never did apply for staff privileges there. But there was a doctor, I think his name was Dr. Trucks. I' ; m not a hundred percent sure about the name. He called me about ' ; 64 or ' ; 65 and wanted me to come out and apply for that staff. Now, East End was out on 66th or 67th Street, I believe. It was totally impossible for me to go all the way to Ensley, where most of my patients were, back to University and then all the way out to East End. I would never get to the office. And I told him I couldn' ; t do that. But I did ask him at the time, I said, " ; Tell me something. What is the situation there? How many Black patients do you all have?" ; And he said to me, " ; Jim, we don' ; t have any." ; I said, " ; You don' ; t have any?" ; I said, " ; How did that come about?" ; He said, " ; Well, we made a gentlemen' ; s agreement, we just wouldn' ; t admit any Black patients." ; I laughed. I said, " ; Well, you might have made an agreement, but no gentlemen would make such an agreement." ; But I did get Dr. Joseph Samuels to go out and apply to the staff, because I thought to get all the many hospital staffs integrated with at least one or more Black doctors was very important. And, to the best of my knowledge, he did go out and was admitted. But Medicare did more, and the federal government about integrating hospitals than any individual. The only hospital that did not wait for Medicare to say that you had to do it, to be honest with you was University. HUNTLEY: So, University was the ahead of everyone else? MONTGOMERY: They had very good people at that time, at the top of the University Hospital staff. Dr. Joseph Volker, who was head of University, Wally Fromeyer, who I said later became a very good friend of mine, was chief of medicine, Dick Hill, was the dean at the time, I believe. I can' ; t remember the Administrator at that time, but they were forward looking. They saw the future coming. HUNTLEY: Was this because most of them were from out town? MONTGOMERY: That might be part of it. I do know that, I don' ; t know where Fromeyer came here from, but he went to school in Cincinnati, I believe. And, Dr. Volker, of course, had come down here from Boston. I don' ; t know where Hill was from, but Hill had gone to school at Harvard. Now, whether he was a native Alabamian, I really don' ; t know. But that thing works two ways. The person who comes down, either he brings his ideas with him, if he gets to work on them immediately, it helps. Usually, what he does, is get into the confines of their thinking and he is sometimes worse than the people who have been here all the time. That was my experience, at least. HUNTLEY: That' ; s very interesting. So you are saying that, in many cases, it didn' ; t matter whether you had a Northerner to come in, because the Northerner actually accepted the mores? MONTGOMERY: He assimilated very well into the conservative culture. I have another word for it. But, the conservative culture, he assimilated into. HUNTLEY: You wouldn' ; t want to share that other word, would you? MONTGOMERY: Not really. HUNTLEY: Tell me, this period, as you said it was a very, very interesting period, and I know that you had some relationship with the other things that are happening in Birmingham with the changing of the guard, for lack of a better term. Can you tell me about your relationship to the Movement itself? MONTGOMERY: Well, I was not a going to church every Monday night member of the Movement. I supported the Movement financially, I supported the Movement in every other way that I could. Fred Shuttlesworth and I had been at Rosedale High School as students together. He was three or four years ahead of me, of course. But, we had known each other for quite some time. I became Fred Shuttlesworth' ; s physician and his family physician in 1957. I was always interested in things political. I think I told you earlier that as a youngster I was more interested in the social and political structure thing, than I was in medicine or science. That might have remained all of my life. (Inaudible) now, between a good political discussion or a football game, as much as I like football, I' ; ll probably watch the political discussion, or tape it, one way or the other. But, I got interested because I always thought that things could be better. And, I always thought that I was in a unique position, as a Black physician, who only depended on Black people, to do what I could to help make life better in the community, not just the hospital and the medical schools. Now, in 1964 I believe, I got interested in voter registration and there had been plenty of people working on voter registration for years. But, to the best of my knowledge, only about 9,000 Black people registered to vote at the time. And we started, well, what actually happened is that some money was coming over from Atlanta to help with voter registration in Birmingham. I don' ; t remember the organization name, right now. HUNTLEY: Voter Education Project? MONTGOMERY: VEP, correct. They were going to send some money over here, but they did not want to send the money with the present makeup of the organization, to be honest with you. So Arthur Shores and Lucious Pitts, and one or two other people encouraged me to go to the meeting and try to get elected treasurer of the body, which I did. They elected me treasurer of the local project, and I began to raise money locally and we got the money from the Voter Education Project into Birmingham, because they wanted to be sure the money was going to be used for voter registration. Our reputation was fairly decent and they would know that if it was sent for that, I would do my best to see that it was used for that. We went to work with the help of a lot of other people. And, between 1964 and 1966, I think the number of registered voters in the Black community grew to about 64-66,000. And, that' ; s why I ran for the legislature in 1966. I had no idea I could win. But, I thought that once we got 66,000 people registered to vote, they had to have somebody to vote for. That is why I decided to run. I never knew I was going to Montgomery. Although the sign said, " ; Send Montgomery to Montgomery." ; But, I never thought I was going. I still think that people needed a reason to go to the polls, and they did in large numbers, back in 1964. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the run for Montgomery. MONTGOMERY: Well, that was an interesting experience, but was it exhausting. You had to go out to every community, to every church meeting and make a speech. And since most of them were raising money to help you run for election, they wanted you to put money into the pot at the time. It was a very interesting experience. I enjoyed it, because I' ; ve always enjoyed things political. But, it was difficult to practice medicine and run for office. What happened, actually, I made the runoff. I had about 43,000 votes, I believe, in the county wide. And the fellow who won the seat, a fellow named Henry Lee in the runoff, he died. After he died, one morning about 5:00 or 5:30, a good friend of mine, named Miss Washington called me and said, " ; You know Henry Lee died this morning?" ; So she thought, in 1995 I' ; m sure I would have been named for that position as I was the next higher runner up. Instead, they had another election (Inaudible) $78,000 to keep from naming me to that number 10 spot I was on of the legislature agenda, and people naming me as the nominee of the democratic party. They spent another $78-80,000 and had an election which I did not run it, because I was about full of that. I had about all that I could handle. I did not run in the election after he died. HUNTLEY: I want to just mention a few events and a few individuals and if you would just, off the top of your head, give me what comes to mind. Freedom Riders, 1961? MONTGOMERY: They made a great contribution to this area, and to the whole effort of integration and civil rights without a doubt. They suffered actually, because many of us are Johnny- come-latelys to the civil rights movement. But the Freedom Riders were not Johnny- come-latelys...the benches and Carolina were not Johnny-come-latelys. Really. They were not. HUNTLEY: Selective Buying Campaign? MONTGOMERY: It was very helpful in Birmingham. If things were not very helpful, go and interview Richard Pizitz, he will tell you. At least he told me really how they got the message very quickly that if people would not spend money with you, you will stop and look and see what you have been doing. I remember that campaign locally very well, because my wife was deeply involved in it. She had worked with the kids out at Miles College. She and Mrs. Pendleton and Mrs. John Drew and some others. But she had worked with that and I know they would go and haul the kids downtown to carry the signs and to help with that. I remember having to buy my son, who was two years old I believe at the time, my youngest son, a suit to be in Attorney Shores oldest daughter' ; s wedding. I remember I had to buy it in Chicago when I was up their studying taking post graduate courses. It was very effective. You stop the money. Adam Clayton Powell used to say something that I still remember very well. He says that " ; We always thought that the White man was at his worst when the White woman was involved." ; But Adam said that " ; if he has to decide between his wife, his daughter and his dollar.: He said, " ; Susie, you know now you grown." ; And I think there' ; s a lot of truth in that because they never forget the bottom line actually. HUNTLEY: Demonstrations of ' ; 63? MONTGOMERY: They made all the difference in the world, really. And that was not an easy thing to get going in Birmingham whether you know it or not. There were people who was against this. My good friend, (inaudible) Jackson, was against it. He was talking about the failure that Martin Luther King had made in Georgia. Other powerful people were not pushing it that much although they worked, maybe some of these lawyers to get them out of jail and did their legal thing. But they were not pushing it very much, because they thought they were outsiders. HUNTLEY: Is that why you think they were not in favor of the demonstrations? MONTGOMERY: They were not in favor in my mind for two reasons. Number 1, two or three people were the people that the White power structure called all the time. And I think that position they had put them in, that everything that come (inaudible) come through us made them kind of want to push the other people away. And I think that was the reason because the whole thing at that time was these outsiders go home. Martin Luther King go home. Abernathy go home. Walker go home. And we met one day shortly after they came to Birmingham. My wife and I were invited down to A. G. Gaston building on the second floor and we had a meeting. The room was just full. And there was a big debate about whether or not we would support this movement that Martin Luther King was bringing in here or not. And there were people saying, " ; No, we making progress." ; Preachers and non-preachers and other people. " ; We don' ; t need them here to do this." ; And, if you pardon me for saying it, I remember standing up saying, " ; What the hell y' ; all talking about?" ; I didn' ; t believe what I was hearing. I said, " ; We aren' ; t doing anything. We don' ; t have enough people to vote, every counter downtown is segregated, every hotel is segregated, everything is segregated. What are y' ; all talking about. HUNTLEY: Were there others at the meeting that supported your view point? MONTGOMERY: Yes, there were a few. But more, many more people began to support it as we went along actually, really. Because after we had that meeting I remember it was the next day that I was asked to join the Executive Committee. They didn' ; t call it the Executive Committee, but it was the committee that was making decisions about the demonstrations and that sort of thing, I remember. HUNTLEY: Was this the Alabama Christian Movement? MONTGOMERY: No. The Alabama Christian Movement had started the whole movement. It was a combination of SCLC and the Alabama Christian Movement. Now, there would not have been any demonstrations or success in Birmingham without the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. Fred Shuttlesworth, in my mind, has done more for civil rights in this town than anybody, any single individual probably has ever done in any town. He put his head on the block. He got stabbed. He got cut. I remember going to see him after he went to Phillips High School to take his kids down there. He had been to the hospital at University, but he called me and wanted me to come out and check him and his wife, medically, and I did. And I' ; ll never forget this because I checked Fred and Fred' ; s head was as hard as steel. Fred was an amazing man. And let me tell you why I say that. Fred would go out and demonstrate, go down and get beaten and cut and you checked Fred' ; s heart rate, it was 60. His pulse rate was just perfectly normal. And he was just built for this thing. Most other people would have been shaken and their heart rate would have been running away, but not Fred. HUNTLEY: Is that right? MONTGOMERY: His wife said something to me very cute that day about when we were integrating the schools, she said, " ; I' ; m mad." ; I said, " ; What are you mad about Mrs. Shuttlesworth?" ; She said, " ; When I go to meeting Monday, I can' ; t show where they stuck me." ; She got stuck in the buttocks with the knife. But I remember that. But he was really meant for this sort of thing. And, Birmingham, not just Blacks but all people in this area owe Fred Shuttlesworth a great deal, without a doubt. HUNTLEY: The power structure for a long time wouldn' ; t deal with Fred. MONTGOMERY: Well, that' ; s why David Vann came into being a very important person in my mind. The power structure didn' ; t want to deal, but the business community again wanted to do something to stop the demonstrations to help Birmingham, because if you help Birmingham, you help their pocket books. That' ; s what it comes down to. Fred Shuttlesworth, Martin King and a group of other people and David Vann, who was the person, the conduit from the White community, were able to really work out a settlement. They got the demonstrations stopped. They got the lunch counter signs down and many other things down actually, the hotels and all. And that' ; s why I give David a lot of credit. I remember seeing David Vann sitting on the floor with tears in his eyes because he really loved Birmingham and he didn' ; t want this city just completely burned or torn up. This was during the time we had the bombings and the hotel/motel got bombed, A. D. King' ; s home got bombed actually. We got threats and that sort of thing. HUNTLEY: Can you comment on the use of the children in the march? MONTGOMERY: Had the children not come into the march, the march would have stopped. The success wouldn' ; t have come because most of all the folks that were willing to go to jail had already gone and when A. D. King came in that meeting that afternoon, in Room 30 at the old A. G. Gaston Motel, he said, " ; Well, we think the kids at Carver High School want to join." ; And we had a big discussion about that. But that was the thing that broke the monkey' ; s back. HUNTLEY: How did that discussion go? Were people in favor? MONTGOMERY: Most of the people at that level, who were there were in favor I think of what else could be done. The people who wanted to go to jail were in jail and the segregation bars was still up. Bull Conner was still there saying, no, no, never. He was saying never that George Wallace had taught for years. And, I don' ; t have much opposition to that, but that had the greatest possible impact to really break the walls down because they had kids locked up at Fair Park in large numbers. And, I had many patients who told me even twenty years later that " ; I was at Fair Park." ; That really broke the monkey' ; s back, without a doubt. And the next thing that helped break the monkey' ; s back was Bull Conner thought the way to resist this thing was to get into his tank and say, " ; No, never. I won' ; t move an inch." ; All he had to do was get out of the streets and let them march. But that thing was so built in him that I got the right to control this thing. HUNTLEY: I was going to ask you to comment on Bull. How would you characterize him? MONTGOMERY: He was a typical White politician who thought segregation would keep him getting elected. He did not want Birmingham to do much growing because if it got very large he could no longer keep control. He did not want anything progressive to take place and he wasn' ; t by himself, he had a lot of followers. A lot of followers, really. HUNTLEY: The bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church? MONTGOMERY: I' ; ll never forget that day. I was out at Holy Family Hospital that Sunday morning. And one young lady in the business office said to me, " ; They have bombed 16th Street Baptist Church." ; I was just sick. I was so sick, I bet my family was down at St. John' ; s AME Church at Sunday School probably. And I remember coming home after seeing my patients at the hospital and it was that day that I decided, " ; Well, it' ; s time for me to get the hell out of here." ; That was exactly my thinking. And I started talking to a friend of my from Morehouse whose father-in-law had just passed in Toledo, Ohio and thinking about going to Toledo, Ohio to practice medicine, because I thought that was just too much. But, you get your anger up and then you stop and think about the thing that, if we don' ; t stay, who stays, really. And that begin to dissipate. Not some of the fear and worry about the thing did not go away. But that brought probably more national and international help into Birmingham at that time. There had been a lot of help, of course during the time of the demonstrations to get people out of jail. The UAW had sent a lot of money in and the NAACP had done a lot of work to help get people out of jail. But I think that the death of the kids was the thing that really brought the weight of the whole thing down so Lyndon Johnson and that group of people could do something about what was going on. HUNTLEY: Were you ever involved in any inter-racial groups that met prior to ' ; 63 for the purpose of discussing the issue of race in Birmingham? MONTGOMERY: I don' ; t know. We discussed it, but I don' ; t remember any organized effort to discuss it. Other than what Fred and the others had done through the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. I told you that we had discussed the problem in the medical society, but I do not remember any big efforts. Although there were groups meeting. The Alabama Christian Movement was meeting and I had been in some other meetings, really, but I don' ; t think we thought we were going very far. I remember when the movement came here, the SCLC and the Alabama Christian Movement started the march. There was a fellow who spoke to us at some banquet we were having at L. R. Hall Auditorium. He was saying, " ; We told them just to wait a while, we were going to work this thing out." ; He came from Mobile, some college down there. I don' ; t remember the college right now. It was a catholic college in Mobile. He came up here saying, " ; You ought to hold back." ; It' ; s always this " ; Wait ' ; till next year" ; attitude. There was a lot of that. But there were people working hard, mainly through voter registration and through the courts. You know Arthur Shores and his bunch and Thurgood had gotten rid of Democrats holding Blacks out from voting in the primary. They said that was their private thing. And all those efforts evolved and led to the other things that we were able to do later on. HUNTLEY: You and your wife were both known to be supportive and to be active. Did you ever receive any threats? MONTGOMERY: Only one night someone called my home. I lived on Lincoln Street about four or five blocks from here. And they said, " ; Tell that nigger doctor we' ; re going to bomb him." ; But that was the only threat we would ever receive. I never told my wife this, but I got notes at the office saying, " ; Nigger you better go back to practicing medicine (Inaudible). But I don' ; t know, during the 1960s it was an interesting time to be alive and we knew there was danger. It wasn' ; t that we didn' ; t bother about danger, but everybody was in danger if you were Black unless you wanted to take the position that I think these folks are fine and we ought to stop bothering them. And, that was true of many things. The people who really helped a lot I think were the Baptist ministers. I never thought the ministers in my church, except one or two, I' ; m A.M.E., really made much of a contribution to this thing. Sam Davis was very active. The late Rev. Sam Davis, actually. And, I remember my uncle by marriage, Rev. Lamar he worked with the Movement. But that was not a whole lot of working on the part of the ministers as far as I knew in the A.M.E. church. The Baptists ministers mostly led this thing. HUNTLEY: How did your involvement in the Movement impact upon your practice? MONTGOMERY: I' ; m not sure it had much effect one way or the other. I never forgot one thing although I was interested in integrating hospitals and integrating medical societies and getting kids into medical schools was one of the things I' ; m most proud of, that I was lucky enough to help do. But I never thought that, I never forgot that my main responsibility first was to my patients. So, I (Inaudible) help the patient. I think practicing the best medicine you know how takes the patient load for you. Now, I did find myself involved in taking care of members in the Movement. Fred Shuttlesworth and his family were patients of mine. When Martin Luther King was here in jail, they asked me to come to see him and treat him, which I was happy to do because Martin and I had been at Morehouse together. But, I don' ; t think, in the general practice, was impacted by the Civil Rights Movement. HUNTLEY: Were you personal friends with Martin Luther King? MONTGOMERY: Oh yes. HUNTLEY: Were you in the same class? MONTGOMERY: No. He finished in ' ; 48 and I finished in ' ; 47. Someone asked me, who came to interview me a few years ago, what I thought about Martin at Morehouse. I never would have thought that Martin would have turned out to be the person he turned out to be. I never would have thought that. There was nothing about Martin that impressed me that here was a man whose life I think would have been touched by the hand of God. I really never thought that. But, I was very happy to be able to go to the jail house, which I went in Bessemer and up here to treat him and support him in every way that I could. But I knew him very well, but you won' ; t see me out waving, " ; Ask me about Martin Luther King," ; that' ; s just not my nature, but he was a fine person and did great things that everybody knows. HUNTLEY: Throughout your career, you' ; ve been very active and involved, and, of course, on the threshold of change in the profession, as well as with the Movement. If I would ask you if there may be one or two periods in your life that sort of changed your perspective on life around Birmingham, what would those be? MONTGOMERY: Well, I think the first (Inaudible). When the bombing occurred with the girls in ' ; 63, I remember also talking to a friend of my named Dr. Matori, who is Professor of Surgery at Howard, who encouraged me to come back to Howard to teach internal medicine. And, by this time, I was also applying to integrate the hospitals and that sort of thing and I just thought to myself that it seemed to be much better for me to open some doors here than to go back there, that would have been the easier way it seemed to me. And, I remember sitting down doing some work on that the last time they bombed Arthur Shores home, I believe. I just thought what happened in ' ; 62 really had a great impact in my life because I wanted to help make things better, not just in medicine, but in the community if I could. And, I think that had a great impact on my life. After that time, the activity was just continuous process. We always had trouble between the police and the Black community. I remember in ' ; 69, Lucious Pitts called me. He was president of Miles College. He said, " ; The Sheriff is beating up some woman and her son and something." ; And we went out to meet and do something about this. And out of these meetings we had, on a Sunday morning I remember, after I had gone to the hospital to make my rounds, led to the formation to the Community Affairs Committee, which I was one of the founding members of. I served as its General Co-chairman to ' ; 78 to 1980. But the work that we did there with police community relations was very important to me. It took me two years eating breakfast every Thursday morning with Mel Bailey and Jimmy Moe to get them to agree that they didn' ; t treat Black and White people the same way. I met and ate those grits down at Britland' ; s every Thursday morning. But they finally admitted that maybe you have a point there. I think things began to improve somewhat in the police department at that time. Jimmy Moe was old and had been a segregationist all his life. I don' ; t think he could do any better than he was doing. I always thought that Mel Bailey was young enough at that time to have done better, but just didn' ; t want to do any better. But it' ; s been a kind of continuous process. I can' ; t think of any particular point other than that. Because I think that the early 60s when we begin to feel that we can make a change, we can get in these doors, I remember the night I went to be interviewed at the Jefferson County Medical Society about becoming a member. The fellow asked me " ; Had you planned to sue us if you don' ; t get in." ; I said, " ; Sue you, why would I have to do a thing like that?" ; But I was going to sue them if they had not taken me. There had been a suit in North Carolina that had not been successful. And, had I not been successful, I was surely going to sue them, because the ball had began to move and you can' ; t stop the ball when it' ; s moving. If you do, you just get run over by it. But Fred Shuttlesworth said something to me back in the early 60s that I never will forget and I mentioned this to my sons perhaps 100s of time. He said, " ; Doc, everything we' ; re going to get we have to get in the next 15-20 years. Because the way history goes they' ; re going to start turning this thing back." ; And, he was only off by 10 years. HUNTLEY: Very prophetic. MONTGOMERY: Yes. Very prophetic. I' ; ll never forget that. Because you see what' ; s happening in Congress now, they' ; re busy trying to turn everything back and it didn' ; t start, it just reach a point where they got control in ' ; 94, but they been working, trying to turn it back every way they can. And what bothers me mostly about that is that we, as a group of people, I' ; m talking about Black people, now, don' ; t understand enough about this to know that you got to keep pushing that ball. In fact, you know when I first worked to get the kids into medical school, I wrote to Dick Hill who was then dean. HUNTLEY: This is at UAB? MONTGOMERY: At UAB. S. Richardson Hill later became president. And I wanted to know, they had increased their class enrollment from 90 to 100. This was in the 60s or 70s, I can' ; t remember the exact date. And I asked him, I said, " ; Dick, I want to know how many Blacks are going to be in this class?" ; They only had one Black in the previous class. That was after Sullivan and Dale had already been in school there. But they were then going back. And he said, " ; Jim," ; in a very nice letter, " ; No, we don' ; t have any Blacks in this class." ; And that' ; s when I asked them, " ; We need to sit down now and try to find a way to get qualified Blacks in the University of Alabama Medical School." ; And, we met in Joseph Volker' ; s office. Joe Volker, Wally Fromeyer, Dick Hill and some other people. Then we formed a committee that would spend all of its time looking for qualified Blacks to enter the medical school here. And they asked me to write out a plan that I thought would work to help this. Now, they were always very helpful, I' ; m not going to take that credit from them. They were, they were very helpful at UAB. I asked them, I said, " ; The first thing I want you to do, we have a 100 places, I want you to save 10 slots open for Black people." ; And to my surprise they said, " ; We can do that." ; I was almost shocked at what my experience had been in the past. You know some of the things you don' ; t get because you don' ; t go and ask for them really. And they agreed to hold ten slots and we got to the place where we could get 9-10 people admitted. During a 3-4 year period I remember interviewing every single Black student who applied for medical school there. I did this all on my on time. Everybody else, of course, was on salary from the University except me. Actually, that' ; s all right, I didn' ; t mind that. But I thought that this gave me a great opportunity to try to open the door and see that the doors would never be closed again at the medical school. And we would get the people admitted, and I must be truthful, 90% of the people I thought ought to be admitted, got admitted. There were many who I did not think was ready to go to medical school. And I didn' ; t go on record of recommending somebody I thought wasn' ; t going to be able to do the work there. They would tell me, " ; Doctor, I was working in civil rights." ; I said, " ; Well, you can' ; t show me that on this transcript, here." ; And I think it' ; s a good thing to be in civil rights. But if you are going to school, you' ; ve got to get prepared to go to school. If not, you just go there and they get you out before you get there. But we worked this thing for 3 or 4 years and the committee was never dissolved, they just stopped meeting. They had thought they had done enough I think. And that' ; s often the case. They felt they had made these few concessions, now that' ; s enough. That' ; s what they are talking about affirmative action now. All of a sudden, it' ; s enough. Yet, the doors that are still closed. There are glass ceilings which are still there. But, of course, we' ; ve done enough. HUNTLEY: Did you actually practice until 1984? MONTGOMERY: Yes. The office was open for the next four years, I did some things. But, I was not active on a day-to-day basis after 1984, but I was keeping the office open because I had a son who was coming out of medical school and doing his residency at D. C. General Hospital. And he final came in and took over what was left of the practice. HUNTLEY: Is he here now? MONTGOMERY: Yes. He moved from North Birmingham where I had been, where the two of us had been for about 35 years, I guess. He moved out to Princeton Professional Building recently and he' ; s here now, doing very well. He' ; s my youngest son. I have an older son who is an attorney and he' ; s a partner in the law firm, whose main headquarters is in Boston, but he' ; s in the Washington, D.C. branch and they are both doing very well, thanks to the Lord. We' ; ve been blessed. With children, my wife and I have been blessed. HUNTLEY: This has been a great revelation. You' ; ve also been on the threshold of many of this era of change. You' ; ve contributed an awful lot. Is there any other thing that we have not touched on that you would like to just mention in this interview? MONTGOMERY: I think you have mentioned most of the things. The things that I was most happy with was first being able to help open the hospital doors so no Black physician would have to one day be disqualified, he cannot practice here anymore. Opened the medical society, of course, where when you open one door, several doors usually open. I was very happy about the work we were doing at CAC because I think that police brutality is not as bad in Birmingham now as it is in Los Angeles, California and I' ; ve been very happy about that. That was a constant working struggle, really. And several other things. I think that during the time that -- do you remember the Bonita Carter incident? I was one of the people on that panel and I think that the Bonita Carter incident defeated David Vann and helped the mayor get elected really. I was on that panel. I was very proud of getting four Blacks and four Whites to come up with an answer that they had never heard of before. I remember that night when I came back home, they had called me. Dick Arrington called me and said, " ; How did you get them folks to say that?" ; HUNTLEY: What did they say? MONTGOMERY: Well, that this was unnecessary. That there was no reason at all for him to shoot this girl in the back and there was more to it than that, but I don' ; t have the statement right in front of me. But, to get them to come to that conclusion was a major accomplishment whether you know it or not, here in Birmingham. And, it was a committee equally divided between Blacks and Whites. I walked in the meeting that night and I looked around and saw that " ; M" ; was the last letter in the alphabet on the committee and I decided that maybe I' ; d let all these people give their ideas about what we ought to do first. So that gave me a chance to kind of get a statement that they could accept together in my mind. And, low and behold, again, they accepted it. But these things had helped make some changes in the life whether it was the medical school, opening the doors of the hospital, helping with voter registration or helping the community any way I could. These things have been very important to me in my life. HUNTLEY: Who were the other people that were on the committee? MONTGOMERY: I don' ; t remember them all. Rev. Gardner was on there. Rev. Sam Davis was on there. Rabbi Graffner was on the committee. The fellow who was superintendent of schools at the time. He' ; s been down in Louisiana and Maryland as superintendent. I can' ; t think of his name, right now. And there was a fellow from Bromberg, a fellow from UAB was on there, he was teaching history at the University of Alabama. It was a well known in town. HUNTLEY: But you had four Blacks. HUNTLEY: Four Blacks and four Whites, yes. We had hearings there for about a week or ten days. I think it helped put the wheels in motion because I think that' ; s when Vann lost his support in the Black community. And I didn' ; t know that all his support was in the Black community until then. HUNTLEY: Dr. Montgomery, I want to thank you for taking this time. You have been very, very helpful and I' ; m sure that the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute is very appreciative. MONTGOMERY: Well, I' ; m only to happy to do it and the best of luck to the Institute and to you. HUNTLEY: Thank you sir. MONTGOMERY: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JTMontgomery1995.xml JTMontgomery1995.xml
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Dr. James T. Montgomery
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Dr. James T. Montgomery discusses supporting the Movement politically, financially and medically. He served as Rev. Shuttlesworth's family physician and treated Dr. King.
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19950922M
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
African Americans in medicine
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1995-09-22
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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bcriohp
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Horace Huntley
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Jerome Cooper
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Ware, James L.
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5.4 September 20, 1995 Jerome " ; Buddy" ; Cooper 19950920C 1:10:51 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham United Mine Workers of America Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Black, Hugo LaFayette, 1886-1971 Ware, James L. Jerome Cooper Horace Huntley Video 1:|8(11)|25(10)|39(9)|54(2)|83(13)|96(5)|119(11)|131(6)|142(5)|152(16)|168(8)|192(2)|217(5)|229(6)|239(7)|251(11)|264(7)|280(12)|288(11)|303(3)|313(7)|328(2)|340(10)|355(6)|367(4)|379(2)|390(16)|401(7)|412(11)|426(6)|443(8)|449(15)|468(3)|479(14)|487(8)|502(4)|515(8)|523(2)|540(10)|548(6)|561(8)|580(9)|591(6)|605(6)|618(9)|632(12)|640(12)|657(8)|667(1)|680(1)|688(17)|698(12)|711(4)|720(13)|729(1)|745(3)|752(13)|763(11)|776(1)|793(2)|806(11)|817(12)|826(2)|839(12)|852(3)|861(5)|877(7)|892(12)|902(14)|918(7) 0 https://youtu.be/ggSNsJMPt8g YouTube video English 28 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Attorney Jerome " ; Buddy" ; Cooper for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Jerome " ; Buddy" ; Cooper is introduced. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 60 Family & ; Educational Background I want to start with just a few sort of general kinds of questions about background. Cooper begins by describing his family's immigrant Eastern European background, and how during the Great Depression, his father opened his own department store and his mother worked in the home. Brookwood (Ala.) ; Cooper Brothers ; Harvard College (1780- ). Class of 1933 ; Harvard Law School ; Lithuania ; Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Poland ; South Highland School (Birmingham, Ala.) Education, Higher ; Immigrant families ; Jewish families--United States 918 The Role of Race What role did race play in your life up to that point? Cooper describes his first awareness of race in his life was the African American nurse that raised him and how she rode at the front of the bus because of his family. He continues by stating in his run for secretary in his high school's student body, that there was a distinction that other students made because Cooper was Jewish. Epithets ; Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Racism in language ; Student government--Elections Discrimination in transportation ; Phillips High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 1293 Military Experience You went into the military, was that during WWII? Cooper details that he served in the U.S. Army for 44 months, starting two days after the attack on Pearl Harbor. Army Physical Fitness Test ; Army private Military service, Voluntary--United States ; Pearl Harbor (Hawaii), Attack on, 1941 1388 Working for Justice Hugo Black See, I had had a short period of employment. From law school I worked with Judge Davis, and then, I went to Washington with Justice Black. Cooper describes the two and a half years that he worked as a law clerk for Justice Hugo Black in Washington. Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Law clerk ; United States. Supreme Court Black, Hugo LaFayette, 1886-1971 1776 The Secret Meetings of the Birmingham Unions I came back to Birmingham as an acting regional attorney for the Wage Hour Division of the U.S. Department of Labor. Cooper recalls how he and white labor representatives secretly met as a religious and labor fellowship, despite it being illegal for both interracial groups to meet together at the time. He states that they dealt with complaints in the mills and the mines, and worked to desegregate these unions. Marmion, William H. (William Henry), 1907- ; Murray, Phillip ; Redmont Hotel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Saint Mary's-on-the-Highlands Episcopal Church ; Ware, James L. Congress of Industrial Organizations (U.S.) ; Labor union meetings ; Ramsey, John Fraser, 1907- ; United Mine Workers of America ; Ware, James L. 2296 Influential Labor Leaders Before we get there, Buddy, I would like for you to just talk briefly about a couple of people. Cooper describes the labor leaders at the time, his relationships with them, and how several of the leaders endured threats and beatings. Howard, Asbury ; Lewis, John L. ; Mitch, William E. ; Streeville, Howard ; Travis, Maurice Iron and steel workers--Labor unions ; Labor leaders 2714 Paying Bail for Incarcerated Children in the Movement Now, in 1965 the State of Alabama outlawed the operation of NAACP here in Alabama and as a result of that the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized. Cooper describes how he and other members of the steel union, at the request of President John F. Kennedy, paid the bond of the children that were incarcerated at Fair Park. Children's Crusade ; Steel unions ; Streeville, Howard Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Bail--United States ; Incarceration issues ; Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 ; NAACP 3329 George Wallace & ; Bull Connor There was another situation also, when Wallace stood in the door with the steel workers being involved in one way or another. Cooper discusses when Governor George Wallace blocked Vivian Malone and James Hood from enrolling at the University of Alabama, and how several steel and rubber union workers stood in the crowd to prevent any Klan members or otherwise dissenters quiet. AFL-CIO ; Graham, Henry V. (1917-1999) ; Malone, Vivian ; Stand in the Schoolhouse Door ; Trammell, Asa G., 1925-2008 Connor, Eugene, 1897-1973 ; Malone, Vivian ; Wallace, George C. (George Corley), 1919-1998 3832 Supreme Court Union Rulings You know early Supreme Court held that a labor union that had collective bargaining rights had to represent all the members of the union fairly, without regard to race. Cooper recounts several cases that went to the Alabama Supreme court where he won job rights for Black union workers. Jones v. Central of Georgia ; Mitchell v. GM& ; O ; Steele v. L.N.R. Co. African American labor union members ; Alabama. Supreme Court 3988 Operation New Birmingham & ; the Community Affairs Committee I'm not physically able to keep up the pace I did, but I have resented the fact that they had nowhere the fact that these three labor unions got these kids and enabled the negotiations to go on and gave Martin Luther King an honorable basis for talking further and I think, in a real sense, contributed to saving Birmingham. Cooper talks about how the two local organizations was able to continue the negotiations for union rights and their involvement in the Movement. Townsend, Vincent Community Affairs Committee ; Operation New Birmingham 4165 Conclusion of the Interview Buddy, you've obviously have played a tremendous role, and again, I appreciate the role that you have played and I appreciate you spending the time. Conclusion of Interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Oral History Jerome " ; Buddy" ; Cooper discusses fighting for labor rights as an acting regional attorney for the Wage Hour Division of the U.S. Department of Labor. He participated in illegal, integrated meetings with local labor leaders and unions. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Attorney Jerome " ; Buddy" ; Cooper for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College, September 20, 1995. Thank you Attorney Cooper for coming out and sitting with us today to talk about the history of Birmingham. What we are attempting to do at the Institute, of course, is develop histories that would lead us to understand from whence Birmingham has come. So again, I just want to thank you for coming out. I want to start with just a few sort of general kinds of questions about background. Tell me, where were your parents from? Are they Alabamians? COOPER: No. Well, I consider them Alabamians, but actually my mother was born in Poland and came to Birmingham when she was three months old. So when she died in her 90s, we considered her as being an early settler of Birmingham. My father was a little older than she. He was born in Lithuanian, came to this area when he was 13 years old. HUNTLEY: Where were you born? COOPER: In a little village called " ; Brookwood" ; in Tuscaloosa County. HUNTLEY: Was Brookwood a coal mining area? COOPER: Yes. Brookwood was a site of some major coal mines but it was also an agricultural area, too. I remember one coal miner telling me one time when he testified before the United States Congress on legislation to help coal miners, he raised some questions about farming and one opposed senator, said " ; Well, you' ; re a coal miner, you wouldn' ; t know anything about farming, would you." ; He said, " ; Coal miners made so little working in the mines, we had to farm in order not to starve." ; HUNTLEY: You had to do both in order to make ends meet, I assume. What was your father' ; s occupation? COOPER: He was a merchant. He had operated, he and his brother, a general store in Brookwood and another one in Surles, along with his brother-in-law, (Inaudible) Kellerman. Later he was in the wholesale business in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Did your mother work outside of the home? COOPER: Yes. After the depression she did. She worked in my father' ; s store. That was after the big collapse that took place in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Buddy, do you remember the depression years? COOPER: Sure. I was in college before the depression actually struck. I went to college in the fall of 1929 and that year was the big stock market crash. By 1932, when I was a junior, I mean the whole country was flat. HUNTLEY: Let' ; s go back, just a bit. Tell me about your early days. Where did you start elementary and where did you graduate from high school? COOPER: Well, we moved to Birmingham from Brookwood in 1919 and I started in grammar school, South Highland school, that year, either 1919 or 1920. I think I started in the middle of the year. I graduated from South Highland grammar school and went to Phillips High School. HUNTLEY: And you graduated from Phillips High School? COOPER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Now, your family moved to Brookwood to Birmingham so your father was never a coal miner? COOPER: No. HUNTLEY: He was always a merchant? COOPER: He was a merchant. HUNTLEY: And, then, did he open stores here in Birmingham? COOPER: Before we moved to Birmingham, in fact before I was born, he and his brother moved to Birmingham and opened one of the first department stores in downtown Birmingham. HUNTLEY: What was the name of the store? COOPER: It was Cooper Brothers, just like everywhere they went, it was Cooper Brothers. HUNTLEY: Where was it located? COOPER: It was located on Second Avenue between 20th and 19th Street, which the building was later occupied by Burger Phillips and it has recently been remodeled, I forget what it' ; s for. But in 1907, I think, after that store had been operating for not a very long time, my father' ; s brother, his partner, became and ill and had to go to Johns Hopkins or somewhere and a very serious, panic type of depression set in and so he just paid off all his debts and closed the store and sent back to Brookwood. He didn' ; t come back until 1919. HUNTLEY: What part of town did you live? COOPER: Well, at that time, of course, this was before I was born. My grandparents lived on the northside on 8th Avenue somewhere, 15th or 16th Street. HUNTLEY: In the vicinity of the Civil Rights Institute, now? COOPER: Yes. Just 2-3 blocks from here. And the house which my grandparents on my father' ; s side occupied was standing until a few years ago. It' ; s been torn down now. HUNTLEY: You grew up though, on the southside? COOPER: Right. On 15th Avenue and 16th Street. Our house was 1601 15th Avenue South which was right at the foot of Vulcan. HUNTLEY: So you graduated from Phillips High School, did you go to the University of Alabama? COOPER: No, I did not. I went to Harvard College. HUNTLEY: The Harvard College? COOPER: I went to " ; the" ; college. HUNTLEY: How did a young fellow from Birmingham, Alabama make that transition from Birmingham to Boston? COOPER: Well, it was a little awkward at times. I was a lost ball in the high weed, really. I was 16 years old and I had never been out of Alabama except once over the line to Chattanooga. But my father had a dedication to education and to learning. He had never had any formal education except what he had by going to parochial and Hebrew school as a little boy. And, this same lady I think I talked to you today about, Ms. Claribel! Send, who taught me Latin at Phillips High School, she had a part in interesting me in Harvard and once my father heard about it and got to know what it really stood for, he was insistent, so I went. It was pretty difficult to make the transition the first year. HUNTLEY: Well, that meant that your family then was pretty well off? COOPER: Yes. My father was quite well off at that time. That was before the stock market crash and the depreciation of values in real estate which is where his funds were. HUNTLEY: Do you remember how that affected you and your family, the depression I mean? COOPER: Oh, sure. Well, for one thing, my father had to go back to work 12 hours a day in a small retail store in Birmingham on Second Avenue. My mother went to work for $10 a week or thereabouts. We didn' ; t have an automobile even after having driven big, fine cars, we rode the buses, or the streetcars still. I went to school the first year or two without much difficulty, but then, by the end of my sophomore year, I told the dean that I couldn' ; t come back to Harvard, we were penniless. He said, " ; Well, there are many scholarships available, you' ; ll have to make scholarship grades. If you do that, we don' ; t want anybody to have to lose out here just because he is financially unable to pay." ; So I buckled down and was fortunate enough to get a scholarship. incidentally, they gave me a scholarship when I registered as a freshman, but I hadn' ; t sought one, and, when I showed it to my father, he asked me what this was all about. I said, " ; I don' ; t know." ; I think it was part of their program to maintain a national distribution in the student body. But he said, " ; We don' ; t need that, give it back." ; He said, " ; That might keep some boy who really needs it from coming." ; So we gave it back and they gave me a little piece of paper instead. Which was fine, but two years later after his fortune had collapsed, as I said, I told him I couldn' ; t come back. But, I got a scholarship and that' ; s the way I continued my education. Now, I didn' ; t come home. I went to Cambridge in September and came back in June. So you didn' ; t come home every weekend like kids do now or even for Christmas. It cost money. HUNTLEY: Well, Buddy, were you an only child? COOPER: No. I have a sister. My older sister. HUNTLEY: So was she off in college at the same time? COOPER: Yes. That' ; s right. She was ahead of me two years so she got out before the collapse had hit full bloom. HUNTLEY: So you would graduate from Harvard in ' ; 33? COOPER: 1933, yes. HUNTLEY: What did you do after that, after graduation? COOPER: Well, I couldn' ; t get a job, of course. I tried to help my father in his store. HUNTLEY: So you came back to Birmingham? COOPER: I spent the summer here. I remember I did a lot of reading in the store and my father one day said to me, " ; Now, this is not a library." ; But he said, " ; I' ; m glad you want to read, if you want to, you can go to the library, but not here." ; I said, " ; Well, I didn' ; t see anything to do, there are no customers in here." ; He said, " ; Well, work the stock." ; HUNTLEY: So how long did you work for your father, was it just that summer? COOPER: Just for the summer. I could do a little typing for him. He no longer had a secretary or anything like that and I could help him. HUNTLEY: In the fall then, what did you do? COOPER: I went back to law school. After I graduated, I went back to law school in Cambridge. HUNTLEY: Back to Harvard? COOPER: Harvard law. I got a scholarship there. HUNTLEY: And you graduated from Harvard Law School? COOPER: That' ; s right. incidentally, I wasn' ; t a football player and I was a fair tennis player, but I had to get the grades to get my scholarship and I' ; ve always had a strange reaction to these stories about scholarship holders in college these days who are scholarship only in the sense that they get money from the university, but they are hardly scholars. Some of them are, there are a few, of course. HUNTLEY: There are some, but that whole idea of scholarship is probably changed since that time. COOPER: Well, it' ; s a misnomer. I think they ought to just call them paid athletes. HUNTLEY: Do you think they should pay them? COOPER: I would have no objection to that if it was done openly. HUNTLEY: Because some are paid, I assume? COOPER: Yes. But, it' ; s illegal and improper and I don' ; t know whether it would work even if it was legal, Horace, because there are professional leagues where people can go and work as athletes if they have the ability. HUNTLEY: Right. Well, Buddy, after you finished law school, what does Buddy Cooper do? COOPER: Well, I was recommended by the dean of Harvard Law School, who was then Roscoe Pound, famous figure up there. I was appointed law clerk, it was really secretary, but they didn' ; t call us law clerks then, to David J. Davis. Judge David J. Davis who was the United States District Judge for the Northern District of Alabama. We only had one federal judge in the whole of north Alabama then and I worked with him for not quite a year. He was a grand man and a wonderful fellow. He was from somewhere in north Alabama from a farm, but he had worked his way through Exeter or one of those New England secondary schools. He actually rode in a covered wagon from Wedowee, I think it' ; s been the same town that' ; s been in the news so much, to Oklahoma. His family went in a covered wagon from Alabama to Oklahoma and homesteaded a farm and did fairly well for a year or two, but they had a bad crop or something and they came back. And he went through this secondary school and directly to Yale Law School. I don' ; t think he went to college. He got a scholarship to Yale Law School was on the law journal and he wrote. For a district judge, he handled some very important things. He wrote an opinion and judgment sustaining the Social Security Act, for example which started in a lawsuit here in the northern district of Alabama. HUNTLEY: What role did race play in your life up to that point? You have come out of law school, and you had lived in Birmingham for those years. COOPER: Well, Birmingham was still a frontier town really in terms of sociology and race. Everything was segregated. We had some dear people, like the Black lady, who was our nurse in our home, who came with us from Brookwood and lived with us. HUNTLEY: She didn' ; t have a family? COOPER: I think she did, but I think they stayed in Brookwood. I think she was quite elderly. That' ; s my best guess and I think her children had married, but we were small. My sister and I, we were little kids. I was 6 or 7 years old and she was 7 or 8 years old. And this lady, it' ; s kind of humorous when I think back, although it' ; s a sign of the tragic way people had to live then, she would take us on a picnic from the southside. My mother would fix a big basket and she would take the two of us and we would get on the streetcar there on the southside and come to town and transfer. We would take the Tidewater line out to Avondale Park and spend the day. They had an elephant there, Miss Fancy, and a few other little animals and a pond of fish. Then we would retrace our steps. But on the streetcar, we sat in the White section and she sat with us. And once or twice the White motorman, I don' ; t remember, it' ; s been so long ago, but he evidently remonstrated, and she told him where to go. We were her children. HUNTLEY: So she actually sat in the front of the bus? COOPER: She actually sat wherever we sat. And that' ; s where we found a seat. HUNTLEY: She was never arrested? There was no commotion? COOPER: No, there was no scene about it or anything. HUNTLEY: So were those your first memories of race playing a part in your life? COOPER: Yes. I remember her as she worked for my mother in Brookwood. But I just remember that she was there. I have no real impressions about it. For instance, one of the earliest things I can recall instruction wise, was my father and I loved to walk together on Sundays. We were out walking one day and I don' ; t remember how the subject came up, but I said something about someone. I was quoting someone, it wasn' ; t my language, who used the word " ; nigger." ; And, my father said to me, " ; Nice people don' ; t use that word." ; And I said, " ; Well, what am I supposed to say." ; And he said, " ; You say, colored people." ; Now, of course, it' ; s assumed another form. I understand some Black people don' ; t care whether it' ; s colored or Black, but other people are very sensitive about it. I never forgot that. " ; Nice people don' ; t." ; And he never did. I don' ; t ever recall. HUNTLEY: As you grew up when you were at Phillips High School, for instance, were there any instances in your memory where race may have played a role? COOPER: No, because there were no Black kids there. The one incident that I can recall, I' ; ve always been sort of a frustrated politician, and I' ; m glad I was frustrated in most instances. But, I ran for the secretary of the student body and it was a big political thing. HUNTLEY: This is at Phillips? COOPER: Right. I mean, I don' ; t remember how many kids there were, 1,500 or 2,000. It was a big school. And the political campaign was one of the big events of the year. And one of my campaigners came up to me and said, " ; Buddy, so and so has put out the word that you' ; re Jewish." ; And I said, " ; Well, I am." ; He said, " ; You are?" ; But I won anyway. I beat a very prominent, very fine lady from a very distinguished social family in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: There were no other incidences as a result of you being Jewish as a result of the student body finding that out? COOPER: I don' ; t recall any. I do recall having a couple of scrapes. See, I never objected to someone referring to me as being Jewish. I' ; m backslid Jewish philosophically, but it depends on the circumstances. If someone said to me, " ; You Jew," ; I might dislike that. I might have taken them on. But, if someone just said, " ; I understand you' ; re Jewish." ; Well, I am. Just as someone would say to you, well, you happen to be Black, you would say, " ; Well, yes I am." ; But if someone said, " ; You Black so and so," ; you' ; d have a different reaction. We had our problems. HUNTLEY: Right. You went into the military, was that during World War II? COOPER: It was in World War 11, I enlisted two days after Pearl Harbor, December 9, 1941. HUNTLEY: How long did you spend in the military? COOPER: Forty-four months. I went into the Army as a private and stayed a very short time. Things were in such a hectic mess, they hadn' ; t changed the rules from peace time to war time, you know this thing fell on us. So after I had passed my physical by bribing a sergeant who knew I couldn' ; t pass the eye test, I got his help and he said, " ; Sure, I' ; ll get you by." ; They told me they couldn' ; t keep me in the Army because I had dependents or something and they hadn' ; t provided for that. HUNTLEY: You were married at the time? COOPER: Yes. I was married and had a kid and another one on the way. It was cruel thing I did, in a way, to my wife and kids, but I would do again. Because, while I was raised a pacifist, I had decided from what I knew then that I didn' ; t want to live in a world run by Adolph Hitler. HUNTLEY: So you spent 44 months in the military and after the military you came back to Birmingham? COOPER: See, I had had a short period of employment. From law school I worked with Judge Davis and, then, I went to Washington with Justice Black. He kind of skipped that. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. COOPER: Well, he was a former law partner of Judge Davis so he knew about me from Judge Davis, I take it and other people I guess that he knew in Birmingham. When he was appointed to the Supreme Court he had someone call me at the federal court where I was working. He said that Judge Black wanted me to come to Washington and be his law clerk. Frequently it happens that a law clerk from a court of appeals judge or district judge will be elevated. I mean, that was not unusual, I don' ; t think. Of course, my heart stopped beating when the judge called me in the office and told me that. I said, " ; I' ; ll have to ask my fa th er." ; So the judge laughed and said into the phone, " ; He want' ; s to talk to his Daddy first." ; So I ran up to my Daddy' ; s store and told him this wonderful call had come and he thought a minute and he said, " ; Well, let me tell you something , J.A.." ; It so happens my judge that I worked for then had taken the place of a judge who had been sick for a year or more and the cases had piled up and he and I both were working day and night. He said, " ; You go back and tell Judge Davis that you won' ; t take that job if it will in anyway inconvenience him and that you want to do whatever is in his best interest first." ; That was a pretty remarkable thing for him to say, as I look back on it. So I went back and I told the judge that and he laughed and he said, " ; I' ; ve got 100 applications." ; HUNTLEY: What do you remember most about clerking for Hugo Black? COOPER: Well, there are a number of things really. I remember the first day. I remember very sharply the first day or one of the first days when I met him. I went to Washington and met him. He was a very warm, genial man and, of course, one of my heroes. I confess to an honest bias about him. He is one of the great miracles of my life time . HUNTLEY: Why do you look on him as one of those great miracles of your life time? COOPER: Well, for this very simple reason. People ask me, you know he was a member of the Ku Klux Klan, for example, which was a problem that many people saw. He had difficulty, if not an impossibility of being elected in those times without Klan support, because everybody was in the Klan, that is the judges, governors, the senators. Not all, but virtually everybody was. HUNTLEY: As a political necessity? COOPER: Yes. Just as a political necessity. But, he' ; s a miracle. I can' ; t explain how a man born into slavery, he lived on the frontier of Alabama in a slave culture. mean there had been no freedom of the Blacks, technically, they were no longer slaves, but the way they lived, the opportunities for them was still terribly, terribly limited. Now, how did it happen that this person born in that atmosphere, in that culture, had within him somehow the seeds of this international vision, this concept of mankind, of all men being able to walk erect, all men and women to live in freedom? How did that come about? It didn' ; t happen to his brother. It didn' ; t happen to the neighbor next door. It wasn' ; t in his father . It' ; s just a miracle, it just happened. I can' ; t explain it. Now, all the historians and psychologists got all kind of reasons. HUNTLEY: Sure. People are always attempting to explain how, in fact, he, in the 1920s could be a member of the Ku Klux Klan and, then, eventually make it into the Supreme Court and being one of those pivotal justices in creating what would eventually happen in the country. COOPER: I often say to people, you know there were a lot of people who got ugly about that Klan business. " ; What are you doing here with the judge?" ; And I' ; d say to them, " ; Well, I' ; m sorry he was a member of the Klan. I don' ; t try to defend the Klan in any way, it' ; s contrary to all my inner instincts, but one thing I am grateful for, no one ever intimated that Hugo Black ever participated in any of the atrocities, the terrible things that the Klan did." ; He made speeches and went to their meetings and got their votes when he could. In fact, he used to like to say, " ; I didn' ; t get their endorsement, but I got their votes." ; A man from Walker County, from Jasper was actually the technical Klan endorsee in 1926 when the judge was first elected to the Senate. HUNTLEY: How long did you clerk with him? COOPER: Three terms. Not quite three years, two and a half years. HUNTLEY: And, after that, did you come back to Birmingham? COOPER: I came back to Birmingham as a acting regional attorney for the Wage Hour Division of the U. S. Department of Labor. The minimum wage law, the Wage/Hour Bill had just become law and I was one of that bunch of communists who were trying to get the minimum wage, the average wage in the textile industry, for instance, in this area up from .1o cents an hour to .25 cent. HUNTLEY: That was communistic, I would say. COOPER: Oh, yeah. We were destroying the country and all the underpinnings. HUNTLEY: Well, upon your return you are then becoming a labor lawyer. You obviously started to have relationships with people who are looking at labor but also· race. And I know that in 1946 you were part of a group that started a religious and labor fellowship. Can you tell me something about how that all came about? COOPER: Well, that was set up by Phil Murray, who was president of the steel workers and the CIO at that time who was dedicated to the principals that the CIO and the United Mine Workers had professed. That is to represent all people without discrimination of any kind based on race, creed or national origin. This was to be one of the stepping stones that Phil had in mind. He sent this fellow, John Ramsey, a very nice man, he was White, and he was a lay leader in the Presbyterian Church, I think. He came here and got this group together of union officers and ministers. A small group, maybe 20 or 30 people. I wish I could remember their names. One was a lovely man named Ware, who was a young Black minister. HUNTLEY: Rev. Ware? COOPER: Rev. Ware. He and I became good friends. He later was in the CAC committee. He was a militant in a decent persuasive sort of way. People loved him, I think. But anyway, we had luncheon meetings and I remember meeting at the Redmont Hotel and I can' ; t remember... HUNTLEY: Now, wasn' ; t it against the law for Blacks and Whites to meet together in ' ; 46? COOPER: Yes, indeed. HUNTLEY: How did you carry that off? COOPER: Well, we sneaked in and evidently there was a sympathetic manager of the Redmont who was cooperative, I can' ; t recall exactly how that happened. But, we met a time or two and we had lunch. We were either in a basement or in a separate room somewhere where they kept it invisible to the public that we were segregating together. After we met a time or two like that, someone said, " ; We call ourselves a religion and labor fellowship. But, we never meet in a religious atmosphere. We meet in this basement or this room in the hotel. Why don' ; t we meet in some place that had some connection with religion." ; And we all agreed that that would be a good thing to do. So we went around the table to see how we could do it. Well, two or three of them said, " ; Gosh, I would like to do it at my church, but I have to be honest about it, I think it would cause all kind of commotion." ; And, I said, " ; I know I can' ; t get permission at my temple. That' ; s disgraceful, but I can' ; t do it. I' ; m not much influence there anyway on anything." ; So, there was a lovely young Episcopal minister named Mormian. I can' ; t remember his first name. Dr. Mormian, he must have had a doctorate. He was at St. Mary' ; s on the Highlands Episcopal Church. Now that' ; s an old, established fashionable church. A lot of socially prominent people and business prominent people. He said, " ; We' ; ll have our next weekly or monthly meeting at my church." ; Well, that sounded good. It was revolutionary. So we met there and we met in the rectory or whatever that side building is. We sat at tables and the White ladies of the sisterhood served us. The air was electric. They walked in like automatons and they were polite and they served us and nobody said a word. I guess Dr. Mormian said grace, I don' ; t remember. HUNTLEY: Was the group about 50/50 Black and White? COOPER: To my best recollection, we tried to make it that way. HUNTLEY: What kinds of issues did you deal with? COOPER: Well, we dealt with complaints in the mills and the mines. What can we do to improve the seniority situation. Of course, it was easy for the mine workers. They never had the variety of jobs that we had in the steel mills. But, John Ramsey would talk about spreading the feeling of brotherhood. After all, a union is a brotherhood and I can' ; t give you any real agendas. HUNTLEY: Many of the unions at that time, of course, were segregated unions? COOPER: Well all the building trades were, just about. HUNTLEY: Yes. All the AFL basically. Was the CIO sort of on the threshold with the southern organizing drive in bringing Black organizers in? COOPER: Yes. But the steel workers, by 1946 and ' ; 47 when this was done, they had organized the basic steel industry and while there were complaints still that the minorities, Blacks and women, there were a few women who had gotten in during the war when there was a manpower shortage, they were in the union and they were receiving benefits. They got the same insurance, the same vacations and the same rates of pay for a given job. But, the problem was the top job were almost universally White jobs and they were actually separate lines of promotion. It was the policy of the steel workers to merge those lines of promotion and we did. We didn' ; t really get it going too well until, I think it was President Truman issued an executive order which prohibited contracts with employers who discriminated on the basis of race, religion and so forth. So that gave us some legal status to move with. And we began merging. When Martin Luther King came to Birmingham, I think Mr. Shuttlesworth had persuaded him to come here. I' ; m not sure, if I' ; m correct about that. But he was somewhere else and he came here and out of that eventuated these crowds of students. HUNTLEY: Before we get there, Buddy, I would like for you to just talk briefly talk about a couple of people. You knew Bill Mitch. COOPER: Senior? HUNTLEY: Yes. COOPER: Yes. He' ; s the father of my partner for 40 years. HUNTLEY: Tell me about him as a person. COOPER: Well, he came here as a union man. He was one of John L. Lewis' ; arms and his job was to organize the coal mines. He organized people, whoever they were, men, women, communists, White, Black, in the mine workers union. He really laid the foundation for what came about in the CIO later on. I' ; m not too sure about my history, but in the early strikes in the coal mines in the 20s, seemed like to me that I recall the employers brought in strike breakers, most of whom were Black, from the fields and they were pretty good jobs to a man who made .50 cents a day to make $2.00 a day. But Mr. Mitch was a brave man, a big man physically. He just told them that there wasn' ; t going to be any Ku Klux Klan in the mine workers. That the constitution forbade it and he was going to organize people all on the same {Inaudible). He was a great influence and he was so impeccably honest. There were no issues. He didn' ; t publish any books and make a million dollars off of it. He just got the job done. He was a great man. HUNTLEY: How about Howard Streeville? COOPER: Howard was a younger Bill Mitch. He took over. It was his job. He was sent here to answer the complaints that many Blacks were making that seniority was still discriminatory and needed to be cleared up. Howard started out doing that -merging the lines of promotion, getting threatened over the phone. Getting me threatened over the phone at night. Having people call and saying we know where you are. That' ; s not a very pleasant experience. " ; We know where you are, you so and so and we' ; re coming out there tonight. Streeville is a great big fellow. He didn' ; t scare very easy. HUNTLEY: You were surrounded by a lot of great big fellows. COOPER: Right. I was very pleased to have them. HUNTLEY: What about Asbury Howard? COOPER: Well, Asbury unfortunately, my relations with him sort of broke off after that. got to know him when the mine and mill union was a going union here, a big union, and an important part of the CIO. It wasn' ; t until 3-4 years after that that this warfare broke out between the steel workers and the smelter workers. Asbury chose the side of the mine/mill. I was the lawyer for the steel workers. We were still friends. HUNTLEY: He was one of the original organizers for mine/mill in the 30s. COOPER: Right. I think so. It' ; s a strange thing. One of the fellows, Travis, I think was his name, was the president of mine/mill was badly beaten up during the course of that campaign. HUNTLEY: He was, I believe, on the board of directors, Maurice Travis and they had a big fight and he lost an eye. COOPER: Yes. He lost an eye. After the election was over, he filed a lawsuit against the steel workers for the damages that he suffered in that fight, and maybe other things too, but I remember that. We represented the steel workers in that and I negotiated a settlement. If I do say so, I told the steel workers we can defend that sort of thing. The man' ; s been hurt, he shouldn' ; t have been and he should be paid, and they paid him. I don' ; t remember what it was. HUNTLEY: Asbury Howard... COOPER: Asbury came to see me at that time, together, I don' ; t know if Travis came with him, I think it was Cliff Durr, who was representing them. The fellow that later became an assistant general counsel of the steel workers, I can' ; t recall his name. He had been in the labor board years before. The three of them came to me to discuss settlement of that case. I remember Asbury didn' ; t have much to say, but I think he was probably negotiating at that time to get himself on the staff of the steel workers, I am not sure. HUNTLEY: There was an effort by the steel workers to get the former mine/mill officialdom and their followers to join the steel workers and there were many that did because Asbury would eventually become an official with the steel workers. COOPER: Right. But what I remember in that meeting, in my office, he didn' ; t say very much. Asbury didn' ; t say very much, but when they got up to leave, we shook hands and I told him goodbye, he was the last one to shake hands with me and he handed me a piece of paper. It said something like, " ; I want to talk to you." ; Whether we ever talked again or not, I don' ; t recall. I think he and I remained friends. HUNTLEY: He was attacked in the Bessemer Courthouse, I believe? COOPER: I think it was right outside the courthouse, on the sidewalk, where I think the Registrars were sitting, as I recall. Asbury was leading a small group, of 5, 6, or 7 Blacks into register. Evidently they were told they couldn' ; t go in and they tried to go in or something, and the cops just beat them. HUNTLEY: Right. Even beat his son and some other people as well. COOPER: There were several people, I don' ; t remember. HUNTLEY: Now, in 1956 the State of Alabama outlawed the operation of NAACP here in Alabama and as a result of that the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized, Fred Shuttlesworth. Between ' ; 56 and ' ; 63 the Movement, the Alabama Christian Movement was involved in a number of different efforts to change the status quo. In ' ; 57 Fred and his wife attempted to, in fact, to enroll their children in Phillips High school. COOPER: Oh, yes. There' ; s a picture of Mr. Shuttlesworth leading his girl, holding her hand up at Phillips High School and on each sides of the steps there were these leering fellows with their sticks. I don' ; t know if they had ball bats or something. But, that picture reminded me of the picture that appeared in the New York Times, I think it was before we got into the war, I guess it was 1940. It showed a young Jewish couple, a husband and wife, leading their little girl somewhere. Anyway, it was just like that picture and on the sides were mobs of people , storm troopers and ordinary civilians, just laughing and having fun seeing this little child' ; s frightened to death. And I thought of how universal this hatred is. HUNTLEY: ...to assist in changing the status quo between April 1 and... COOPER: What year was this? HUNTLEY: This was in ' ; 63. COOPER: In ' ; 63, and the Civil Rights Law was ' ; 64. HUNTLEY: Right. COOPER: So this was the year before that, and it didn' ; t become effective until ' ; 65, did it? HUNTLEY: It was passed in ' ; 64. But, during this time, of course, there were many marches and many people were incarcerated. Children, thousands, and I know that you played some role in helping to facilitate bail money for these children. Can you tell me about that? COOPER: Yes, I' ; m not turf tending here today, because I consider myself only as, Mr. Colonel likes to refer to, as a foot soldier in all this. But while Martin Luther King and this group of merchants were meeting here, the demonstrations, these crowds of school kids kind of swept through downtown, through the stores. I was working downtown, I don' ; t remember too much about it, but I should have. But, Howard Streeville was in the midst of combining lines of promotion out at Fairfield. And, he and Mr. Far, the director, was standing there in the window of the office and they could see this great group of kids coming up the street or up the sidewalk and Mr. Far said, " ; We' ; re halfway through this but you think we ought to slow up a little while because some of this..." ; HUNTLEY: Who was Mr. Far? COOPER: He was the District Director of the steel workers at that time. Howard was his assistant. And Howard said, " ; Hell, Mr. Far, we' ; re up to our ears in it now, we' ; ll go on ahead and we' ; ll just finish it now." ; So while there was this great conflict between the merchants and (Inaudible) we were trying hard to get the job done where it really counted. In the meantime, Bull arrested a whole bunch of kids. I don' ; t remember, it could have been several hundred. I don' ; t remember the numbers. But, the jail was full and they had them corralled somewhere out at Fair Park or some place, and I got a phone call and I want to tell this very accurately, because I told it a time or two and try not to, I think I make some of my experiences sound a little bit too good, but this...about somewhere late at night, 11:00 or 12:00 my phone rang. It was the general counsel of the steel workers union, David Fellow. Arthur Goldberg had then gone to be Secretary of Labor. And Davy, we called him, said to me, " ; Buddy, President Kennedy has had Bobby, that was the Attorney General, contact Walter Reuther and Dave McDonald to put up the bond to get these kids out jail in Birmingham. Now, the background of that is that the city, it used to cost a minimal amount to appeal a case from the City court to the circuit court, I don' ; t remember, it was just a few dollars. They had passed some sort of ordinance to raise the cost to appeal a nuisance or interference with passage or whatever they had charged these kids with. Probably with illegal congregating or something. They passed an ordinance of some kind that raised the charge, the bond to something like $2,500 each as I remember. Anyway it was a total of over $200,000 that they wanted. It seemed like to me that they wanted $240,000 and the President had asked the steel workers, the AFL-CIO and auto workers to put up that money. And I said, " ; But, Davy, I don' ; t know whether we legally can do this. This is trust money that the unions own. Surely if a group of union members get arrested because they are doing something as members of the Klan, we' ; re not going to put up money for them." ; He said, " ; Well, maybe not, but the President wants this done." ; And I said, " ; Well, then, we' ; ll do it." ; But, I had to clear it with Mr. Far, the director and Howard Streeville. So I called them in the middle of the night, got them up and gave them this outline. I said, " ; We' ; ve got to do it. The President wants us. He thinks the interest of the country requires it and I think it does." ; Of course all three of us got to recognize as soon as this word gets out we' ; ll be looking for a job. And, they said, " ; We know that. But, if the President says this is what' ; s required, then this is what we' ; ll do." ; So, I said, " ; Okay. I' ; ll pass the word." ; So I called Davy back and told him that it would be done. I forget now how mechanically they transmitted the money, I think they did it by telegraph or something. Anyway there were only three people that knew where the money was. That was a fellow named Smith, and I can' ; t recall his first name. A young lawyer who was sort of representing these merchants, and the president of Birmingham Trust Bank, who later went from here to Montgomery, I' ; ve got his name somewhere. But anyway, he was going to open some kind of special account to segregate this money in and pay it into the court registry and they sent me some kind of wire and I took it up to this Smith boy' ; s office and I said, " ; Now, the money is here, we three, you, this banker and I are the only ones that know about this or know how it' ; s being handled." ; I' ; m sure others knew about it. " ; And we are the ones who will catch the hell for it, so welcome." ; And, I didn' ; t hear anymore about that for a good while because Smith or somebody took the money up to the city court registry and put it on deposit with them and the kids got out. And I had to tell Mr. Far and Howard this. Fellow had said that Martin Luther Kings says if those kids are not out by, I don' ; t remember the time, the demonstrations and everything are going to start all over again. So, it was something that had to be done immediately. It was a decent thing to do. I' ; m very glad to have been a small part of it. I won' ; t say that I wasn' ; t nervous. HUNTLEY: That would not have been a popular thing to do at the time? COOPER: Oh, it would have been horrible. HUNTLEY: There was another situation also, when Wallace stood in the door with the steel workers being involved in one way or another. Can you tell me that story? COOPER: I can' ; t remember who was trying to get into Alabama? Was it Lucy or .... HUNTLEY: No. This was after Lucy. This was Vivian Malone, I believe. COOPER: Anyway, it was when one of those cases when some Black lady was going to register or something and Wallace had said he was going to stand in the door and prevent it. The Attorney General and the Federal Government was dispatching a body of troops down there. We had Henry Graham, General Henry Graham showed up and Wallace postured out there a minute or two in the doorway. But before that, what you were asking about, I think is Ace Trammel, who was then, I believe he was the secretary of the AFL-CIO at that time, (Inaudible). Ace had called me and had the president or the lawyer for the rubber workers, I think. No, it was a boy who was an Assistant United States Attorney General for Civil Rights. HUNTLEY: We' ; ll figure his name out. COOPER: I' ; ll figure it out in a minute. He had been counsel for IBM before he took this job, or later he became counsel for IBM. He called me, along with Wissel White, who later became some kind of attorney general, assistant attorney general, later went on to the Supreme Court. And, what they wanted to know was if we could get some White union people who would mingle out in the crowd and keep the Klan or anybody who got out of line quiet. They didn' ; t want anything to happen is really what they wanted. And they had to be big boys and those who were committed to our philosophy that were willing to do it. And Ace said, " ; Yes, I' ; ll do it." ; Ace was a pretty big boy in those days. He said, " ; I can get two or three other fellows from the local union there. I think it was the rubber workers local union in Tuscaloosa which had a lot of Klan influence in it, unfortunately. But these 3-4 guys who were out in the mob, and their assignment as I understood, was if you see anybody getting too loud, quiet them down. Don' ; t let anything happen. And nothing did happen. General Graham marched up the steps to the Governor and gave him a smart salute and said, " ; Set aside, Governor." ; And he stepped aside. Well, the thing that I can' ; t remember too well is whether I was there or whether I heard this and talked about it so many times that I think I was there. But, I believe I was because someone told me in this money that was created in the last year or so that won all the prizes about the fellow going to Washington...do you know what I' ; m talking about? HUNTLEY: No. COOPER: Some very popular movie. HUNTLEY: And you appeared in the movie? COOPER: I think I' ; m in that movie. Now, I may be just imagining things. But I' ; m almost sure I was. But anyway, that thing went off without a hitch, you remember. She did register. Wallace backed down and the troops didn' ; t have to do anything. HUNTLEY: How would you characterize Wallace and Bull Conner during that period? COOPER: Well, Wallace was a good deal smarter than Bull Conner. Bull Conner was a rather stupid fellow, I think in many respects. Wallace was a bright guy. The tragedy is his brightness and his intellect and his capacity to control people were not directed in the right directions. He made the wrong choice. I think it' ; s one of the great tragedies of our lifetimes. Like I said earlier to you, if he had just come out and said, look folks, the Supreme Court has acted, we are law abiding people, I' ; m your Governor. I' ; m telling you it' ; s tough, I know it' ; s a difficult thing to do. HUNTLEY: Do you think that would have made a big difference? COOPER: I think the people would have done what he said. Of course it would have made a big difference, just as if...he was so popular, you remember. Just if Eisenhower, General Eisenhower is President, if he had come out and said the Supreme Court has acted, now let' ; s don' ; t have any trouble here, let' ; s get the schools integrated, going on about building our country and building our communities , it would have gone like a charm. Instead, he went around grumbling and growling about what the Supreme Court was doing until he had to do something and, then, he acted the way a general acts. He sent in the troops. So, instead of having the solution, we had 3, 30 years of warfare. But those are two tragic things. Those two men had power, had control over people' ; s minds. HUNTLEY: Do you think Bull Conner had the same kind of power and control? COOPER: No. I don' ; t think so. I' ; ve heard big businessmen in Birmingham during his hey day like, Mervin Sterne, who was a good man in many respects, but he was in the White leadership that wanted things to remain as they were, White. I heard him say once in a group, " ; Bull is a crude sort of fellow, but he' ; s honest." ; Which to me is absurd. What was he honest about? He was an honest racist. He believed he was the master. That episode, I think, I want people to remember that when they' ; re told about, or when they read this stuff that the chamber of commerce has put out at times and Newt Gingrich and others put out about the labor unions and their wildness and unreasonable attitude about (Inaudible), remember I think in that one incident, if they didn' ; t save Birmingham, they certainly preserved it a long time before it would have otherwise been preserved. They not only put their jobs on the line, they put their well being on the line. They put their family, they shot through Howard Streeville' ; s house. His wife and kid were in there. My wife and kid were sleeping in the back room when I had the guy on the phone telling me they were on the way to bomb my house. That was a very unhealthy feeling. HUNTLEY: Buddy, I' ; m sure that we could go on for another two days with the stories that you have about this particular period and maybe we will do that in another two days. Is there any other thing that we have not touched base on that you just can' ; t hold that you would like to share? We have another five minutes or so. COOPER: Well, this is a little bit of turf tending, I guess. You know early the Supreme Court held that a labor union that had collective bargaining rights had to represent all the members of the union fairly, without regard to race. That was Steelcase Steel v. L & ; N Railroad. That came out of Birmingham and it went to the circuit court that dismissed the case on the pleadings. HUNTLEY: What was that ' ; 50 or ' ; 51? COOPER: Somewhere in there. No it was before that. It was before the war. It went to the Supreme Court of the United States and they reverse, but nothing ever happened. I don' ; t know what happened to that case and when we were trying the Jim and (Inaudible) case and the Central of Georgia cases which were based on the same thing, Hugo and I filed that in 1950, filed those two cases. We won job rights back for some hundreds of elderly Black firemen who had been firemen on the diesels, I mean the coal burners and when the diesels came in they gave that seniority all to promotables who were White. In the middle of that trial, and the decision that we got in that case, and it was affirmed, was the first actual judgment, certainly in this area, and possibly in the court in the country, where those rights, which the Supreme Court had declared, were actually implemented in concrete terms. That was (Inaudible) and Jones v. Central of Georgia. I wrote that down because I knew I' ; d forget it. Mitchell v. the GM & ; 0.He was one of the few young Black firemen. He was our principal witness in that case and we tried it in the Federal Court and it was in the winter time, I think, and it would be dark before we' ; d come out sometimes. And we' ; d be out there and I' ; d have 2-3 of these big White steel workers to meet me. HUNTLEY: So you were obviously in the thick of things. COOPER: We tried to be. HUNTLEY: Well, thank you for taking the time out today out of your busy schedule. COOPER: Thank you. I' ; ve got more time than money these days I' ; ve found in these golden years. I' ; m not physically able to keep up the pace I did, but I have resented the fact that they had nowhere publicized the fact that these three labor unions got these kids and enabled the negotiations to go on and gave Martin Luther King an honorable basis for talking further and I think, in a real sense, contributed to saving Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Well, you are now on record. Straightening the record out, clearing the record up. COOPER: Well, don' ; t you think it strange. I' ; ve asked Bob Calvin at the ONB, I said, " ; Now, on this breakfast program, it' ; s fine to talk about the merchants who negotiated this thing, I' ; m all for them. They didn' ; t put up any money, but they did negotiated. But the people that put up the money ought to be recognized. HUNTLEY: So Operation New Birmingham basically is dealing with the merchants rather than labor? COOPER: Well, I joined Operation New Birmingham on the commitment from the business manager of the Birmingham News, Vincent Townsend. I told Vincent, I said, " ; I have a lot of friends in the Chamber of Commerce and a lot of fine people and they do a lot of good things. But, they' ; re so politically opposed to me, I can' ; t be a member of that." ; And I have to oppose them so many times. And he said, " ; Well, now ONB is not going to be, it' ; s separate from the Chamber and on that commitment, I became a member of it and set up this CAC Committee. He asked me to and I set it up along with Albert Smith. HUNTLEY: CAC? COOPER: That' ; s the Community Affairs Committee. That' ; s where we got Cecil Bauer and the president of this school, whose name we couldn' ; t think of, and I can' ; t think of it now. What was his name? Curry, no. That' ; s troubling. Well, anyway, the two of them really made the Community Affairs Committee got us off the ground. And Vincent Townsend is entitled to a great deal of credit for it. Vincent and I used to break many a sword. When he was coming up, he was a scraper and he stepped up on a lot of people' ; s backs getting up there, but when he got up there he wanted to use his power to aid this community to be a better place. HUNTLEY: Buddy, you' ; ve obviously have played a tremendous role, and again I appreciate the role that you played and I appreciate you spending the time. We' ; ll try to do this again at some later date. COOPER: I hope we can. You will deal with matter appropriately. HUNTLEY: Yes. I will. Again, thank you for coming. COOPER: Well, thank you for asking me and I hope I can come again. I want to tell you and these good people here, it' ; s a matter of great pride to me that, as the old baseball players say, " ; The shadows blinking and got the infield pulled in, that my name is on the Board of Directors of this great place." ; I' ; m very proud of that. HUNTLEY: We appreciate the role that you are playing there as well, Buddy. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JCooper1995.xml JCooper1995.xml
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Jerome "Buddy" Cooper
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Jerome "Buddy" Cooper discusses fighting for labor rights as an acting regional attorney for the Wage Hour Division of the U.S. Department of Labor. He participated in illegal, integrated meetings with local labor leaders and unions.
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19950920C
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
United Mine Workers of America
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963
Black, Hugo LaFayette, 1886-1971
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1995-09-20
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video
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
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Horace Huntley
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Jessie Champion Sr.
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Connor, Bull
WBRC (Radio station : Birmingham, Ala.)
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5.4 November 1, 1995 Jesse Champion Sr. 19951101C 0:38:19 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham A.H. Parker High School Band Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Connor, Bull WBRC (Radio station : Birmingham, Ala.) Jessie Champion Sr. Horace Huntley Video 1:|13(3)|37(4)|58(13)|85(3)|108(13)|128(3)|152(3)|169(12)|197(12)|224(12)|244(11)|269(8)|290(10)|311(3)|333(7)|350(7)|375(14)|396(6)|429(5)|444(11)|462(6)|482(3)|507(1)|530(4)|551(6)|567(7)|586(4)|603(8)|620(6)|639(7)|667(11)|682(4)|694(7)|707(1)|720(6)|737(10)|752(10) 0 https://youtu.be/1tl61GPF5Zw YouTube video English 22 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mr. Jesse Champion, Sr. for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Jesse Champion, Sr. is introduced Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Champion, Sr., Jesse ; Miles College African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Oral history interview 33.4810, -86.9089 17 Miles College 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 40 Family Background I would like to start by asking you some general questions about your family background. Champion states that he was raised in Dolomite, a community in the Birmingham area, along with seven other siblings. His father lost his eyesight as a result of working in the mines, and his mother had difficulties trying to raise the large family ; his mother's first cousin offered to raise Champion, and then took him into her home. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Dolomite (Ala.) ; Jefferson County (Ala.) African American families 277 The Smithfield Community During the Depression Can you tell me what community you grew up in? Champion describes the Smithfield community in Birmingham during the Great Depression. Food stamps--Law and legislation ; Smithfield ; United States. Works Progress Administration Great Depression 372 Elementary & ; High School Experience You started school at Graymont? Champion describes the education he received at Graymont and Parker High School, which included learning trade skills along with academics. He explains that he lived at the Woodward Iron Company's housing. Birmingham Public Schools (Birmingham, Ala.) Graymont Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) 556 Music Background & ; Fess Whatley And after that, I went to the band and would play in the band as well. Champion explains how he became a musician and emphasizes the values of precision and punctuality that director and famous musician J.T. " ; Fess" ; Whatley instilled into all his students. African American band directors ; African American music teachers ; Whatley, J. T. A.H. Parker High School Band ; Whatley, Fess (Musician) 775 Police in Smithfield Living in Smithfield at the time, teenage young man growing up in Smithfield, what was it like? Champion talks about how police in Smithfield would enforce a curfew for young, teenage men to keep them out of trouble. African American teenage boys ; Police-community relations Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Smithfield (Ala.) 846 Naval Service & ; Higher Education After you finished high school at Parker, what did you do? Champion states that after graduating from Parker, he joined the U.S. Navy and traveled to California. After a year and six months, he returned to the South to study at Morehouse College. He then transferred to Alabama A& ; M to study English, and then pursued a post-secondary degree from the University of Notre Dame. He taught at Carver High School, then after graduating from Notre Dame, he taught at Council School in Ensley, Alabama as a social studies teacher and band director. African American band directors ; Alabama A & ; M University ; Carver High School (Gadsden, Ala.) ; Council School (Ensley, Ala.) ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) ; Sailor ; Social studies for schools and colleges ; United States. Navy--African Americans ; University of Notre Dame African American teachers ; Graduate School studies ; Undergraduate ; United States. Navy 1128 Arrest & ; Trial After four years, I had a run-in with " ; the men in blue" ; Champion talks about the time of his arrest in 1963. He saw a student of his in the back of a white man's car, having been accused of stealing. When Champion went to assist, the student ran and the police arrived with instructions from Bull Connor to arrest Champion. Champion went to trial and was convicted of inciting a riot. After being forced to resign from his job, Champion moved to Flint, Michigan to teach at Southwestern High School. Connor, Bull ; Flint (Mich.) ; Southwestern High School (Flint, Mich.) Arrest--United States ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 1429 Description & ; Reflections on the Demonstrations Prior to going to Michigan, did you ever participate in any of the activities that were going on in Birmingham? Champion details his involvements in the Demonstrations and mass meetings and reflects on why he participated as well how non-violence in the Movement contributed to the resulting changes in society. Mass meetings ; Nonviolence ; Reflections on practice ; Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama 1683 " ; The First Black News Reporter" ; & ; Birmingham Radio What was it like being the first Black news reporter? Champion describes how he returned to Birmingham in 1970 and became a news reporter for WBRC radio, the only Black reporter working for the station at the time. He talks about his experiences of speaking to all-white audiences, and even interviewing Klan member, Don Black. Black, Don ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; WBRC (Radio station : Birmingham, Ala.) African American radio broadcasters ; News radio stations 1984 Changes in Birmingham & ; the Mindsets in the Black Community Tell me, how then do you view the changes over time in Birmingham from when you first came back to teach at Council to the present. Champion reflects on the changes in Birmingham for the Black community improved significantly, especially for social mobility. He expresses his personal observations that there is currently a societal complacency due to this progress, and he emphasizes the importance of maintaining cultural identity in the midst of integration. African Americans--Housing ; Cultural assimilation ; Social change African Americans--Race identity ; Social structure and social change 2263 Conclusion of the Interview Mr. Champion, I want to thank you for coming in and taking your time and sitting with us today and I appreciate it very much. Conclusion of the Interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history interview Oral History Jessie Champion Sr. discusses leaving Birmingham after being wrongly convicted of inciting a riot. He became the first Black news reporter for WBRC after returning to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mr. Jesse Champion, Sr. for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley and we are at Miles College. Today is November 1, 1995. Thank you Mr. Champion for taking time out of your busy schedule to sit with us today. CHAMPION: It' ; s my pleasure. HUNTLEY: I would like to start by asking you some general questions about your family background. Were your parents from Alabama? CHAMPION: For the most part, my mother came from Georgia and my father is an Alabamian and I was reared in Alabama, so to speak. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Birmingham, Alabama? CHAMPION: I was born in Dolomite, which is now a part of Birmingham. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sister did you have? CHAMPION: There were four boys and four girls. HUNTLEY: And where did you fit in all of that? CHAMPION: Well, I was the third boy ; out of the eight, I must have been the fifth. HUNTLEY: So, you must have been right in the middle? CHAMPION: Right in the middle, correct. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your parent' ; s education. CHAMPION: My parents had little education. My mother stopped school early because, she had to work in the fields with her parents. She stopped at about the fifth grade and my father was about the same. So, that is as far as they got with an education, they never pursued any farther than what they had accomplished to that point. HUNTLEY: Well, that was not unusual at that time. CHAMPION: No, that was not unusual. It was one of those things where people had to work to survive and that came first. You went to school later if you had time or the family could fit you into the program. HUNTLEY: Absolutely. What about the occupations of your parents? Did your mother work outside the home? CHAMPION: My mother did the domestic type work. She washed and ironed for the physician that delivered me and other Whites in the community. We lived in the mining camp in Dolomite and my father worked in the mines at Woodward, in the same area. HUNTLEY: So, you then would have been a rather stable family at this time, your father working, y ourmother at home and working. You had a large family, of course. CHAMPION: Yes. We had a large family and she was working, because it was out of necessity that he worked. As I recall, the house that I remember when I was very small, had no more than three rooms and everybody had to do whatever in order to keep things going. HUNTLEY: And you lived in Dolomite? CHAMPION: I lived in Dolomite until I was nine months of age. That is the time when my father lost his eyesight in the mines and after that my mother could not shoulder all the responsibilities. She had two first cousins who did not have any children and they came out, and she said mother said, " ; Well, you can help me to bring him up, but I will not let you adopt him." ; And the samething happened to two of my sisters...this was three sisters and neither had children so, this is how we got separated from the others in the family one to leave home at the age of nine months. HUNTLEY: So, you then lived with your aunt? CHAMPION: It was my mother' ; s first cousin. But I was the first. HUNTLEY: First cousin. Oh, I see. CHAMPION: Two sisters children, they were. HUNTLEY: And where did the other children go? CHAMPION: One went to Lynch, Kentucky and the other went to Baxter, West Virginia, but I went to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Did you see each other periodically? CHAMPION: Yes. We would see each other at Christmas time and some of the other times, when we as Blacks would normally take as vacations and visit relatives. They tried to keep us as close as possible so that we would know exactly who our parents were. They told me at an early age, who my parents were and I would make visits out to Dolomite on weekends, when I did not have to go to school. I would ride what was then, known as Summers' ; Busline. After riding the transit system, the trolley cars, which was what we had in Birmingham and I would go on into Fairfield then, I would catch the bus and go on into Dolomite to see my father. HUNTLEY: So, there were five children left at home with your mother. CHAMPION: Yes. Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me what community you grew-up in? CHAMPION: I lived in the Smithfield community. HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what it was like, growing up in Smithfield? CHAMPION: It was very rugged, because the roads were unpaved and in front of my house there was a ditch. And now, the streets have been paved and the ditch is covered, but no sidewalks or anything like that. That' ; s the time when everybody would go bare footed in the summer months and put their shoes on if they were going to church. You did not dare wear them every day of the week. It was a kind of rough life, because at that time, we had the WPA, and we had food stamps that helped us to survive...and that' ; s when I really realized what food stamps were all about. Because, we would get those commodities that had written on them, " ; NOT TO BE SOLD" ; . And even some of the clothing we had to wear... my mother... in as much as I was living what they would call, " ; In town" ; , she would take the clothing that my other brothers would get and give me the ones that did not have the " ; NOT TO BE SOLD" ; written on them. They would have the " ; NOT TO BE SOLD" ; written across the front of the overalls. But she gave me some of the jeans as we call them today. And that' ; s what I would wear, as to not expose and let everybody know that we were one of those in need of such services. HUNTLEY: Right. Now, this is during the depression? CHAMPION: Yes. That was during the depression. HUNTLEY: So then, that was not unusual to see people with that.... CHAMPION: Oh no, that was not unusual. Those were the days of the Broganes and everybody wore them in order to have so meeting that would last a long time and that would keep your feet warm, because we had real snows, then. And it was nothing unusual, at all. HUNTLEY: You started school at Graymont? CHAMPION: Graymont Elementary School. They had a Graymont, which was for Whites, the one that' ; s not in use, right now. And then we had the Graymont, which is now, Hill School and that' ; s where I got my elementary education. HUNTLEY: Tell me. What do you remember about Graymont, which is presently Hill School? CHAMPION: Well, it was one of those where we did not have all the facilities like the y had at the White schools. We had the " ; outdoor toilets" ; and the boys would have to go outside and get coal for the potbellied heaters for the classrooms. And the floors had to be oiled, not waxed. Sometimes if you wanted to get out of class you would ask a teacher to let you go out to help mop the floors putting that oil in them...it was something of an experience. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your teachers? CHAMPION: My teachers, I remember quite well, because they were quite serious about what was going on, as far as trying to get an education over to you and letting you know the importance of the same. We had home economics for the girls and manual training for the boys. Then, we had one room where you learned how to sew some of the items like pants and you made a suit by the time you graduated and l learned some shoe repairing ... it was quite an experience learning more than what they are allowing teachers to teach now in elementary schools. HUNTLEY: So along with academics, you had a trade? CHAMPION: Yes. HUNTLEY: You mentioned, your father lost his sight when you were a very young child. Did he remain at home? CHAMPION: Yes. He did remain at home. And he did something that was illegal and everybody who knows him and we get into a conversation about it I tell them, " ; Yes, my daddy sold booze" ; . Because he was blind, the county officers let him know that it was okay as long as it didn' ; t go too far. They would let him know when they were going to come around to inspect to find out who was running a " ; shot house" ; so to speak and that' ; s how he brought in extra moneyselling booze, cigarettes, candy, and peanuts to assist my mother with what she was able to bring in. And that' ; s why we also, left where I was born and moved into what they called," ; a boarding house" ; which was furnished by Woodward Iron Company for people that were not able to buy their own homes or to pay rent, so to speak. HUNTLEY: It was a part of the company' ; s housing. Is that right? CHAMPION: Yes. Yes. HUNTLEY: Woodward had company housing on the northside of Jones Valley as well as on the southside of Jones Valley and you lived on the northside. Is that right? CHAMPION: Right. HUNTLEY: When you finished school at Graymont, where did you go? CHAMPION: From there, I when to Parker High School. HUNTLEY: Parker High School. Parker High School is of course, very well noted. CHAMPION: Yes. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Parker High School? CHAMPION: The thing I remember most was going out for the football team when I really didn' ; t weigh enough, but I wanted to keep up with the gang. HUNTLEY: How much were you weighing at the time? CHAMPION: I was weighing about 125 pounds. And that was a bit lite for me to be wanting to play on the line, but I did make the team and that' ; s where I played during football season. And after that, I went to the band and would play in the band, as well. HUNTLEY: And you became quite an accomplished musician. CHAMPION: Yes. That' ; s where I got my start, as far as being a musician. Working under Fess Whatley, he taught me the ropes and I ended up working with him in his first orchestra. And I learned how to value the dollar and how to not let it go as fast as you would normally without having someone giving you the guidelines you' ; d need. HUNTLEY: Fess Whatley is very well known, internationally. CHAMPION: Yes, he is well known all over the U.S. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about Fess Whatley. What was it like being a protege of Fess Whatley? CHAMPION: Well, Fess Whatley was a man who look ed out for everybody, be they male or female. He would let the boys know that there is a time when you don' ; t put your hands on the girls-- you go up to your classes where you are suppose to be going and don' ; t play around. There are certain things you don' ; t do and you give them the utmost respect. And I believed that' ; s something everybody remembered. And the girls would respect you, also because of that. He also taught everybody how to be thrifty, you know, working with your hands. Not to be the regular run of the mill type of individual. Punctuality as well. I am reminded of that sometimes, now by J.L. Lowe. He says, " ; You came along during the Fess Whatley era, you like to be on time or before time so you will not be classified as one who comes late" ; . HUNTLEY: That' ; s important. CHAMPION: Yes. Very definitely. HUNTLEY: What was your instrument? CHAMPION: Clarinet and drums. HUNTLEY: Was Fess one who was a stickler for time and for precision in terms of development... I remember when I grew up, Parker' ; s band was always meticulously dressed and they had all kinds of precision and of course, this was after Fess Whatley' ; s time. I was wondering did he set the foundation for Parker, and know what it would eventually become? CHAMPION: Well, he reminded everybody that they were supposed to be in uniform at all times, because we had uniforms, then. And along with the uniforms came your personality as to what you were suppose to be about and how you were supposed to carry yourself. And he was that man that was concerned about everything being as it should be. I remember we would have band practice in the room above the printing shop. And if someone made a bad note, he could come right upstairs and go to that individual who made it without being told. He have that kind of sensitive ear, as far as music goes. HUNTLEY: You said the band room was above the printing shop? CHAMPION: Yes, it was above the printing shop in the Boys Building, as they called it. HUNTLEY: And he would be in the printing shop? CHAMPION: Yes. Yes. HUNTLEY: Was he the instructor of printing? CHAMPION: He was the instructor of printing, yes. HUNTLEY: Did you take that class? CHAMPION: No, I didn' ; t. I didn' ; t take printing. I took tailoring under Melvin Caswell at that time. HUNTLEY: Would Fess Whatley be one of those individuals that would be a role model for you? CHAMPION: Very definitely , I would think so. HUNTLEY: Were there others you would remember that were teachers at Parker at the time that stand out in your mind? CHAMPION: Gus Ward and Melvin Caswell ; I remember those quite vividly, because I worked with Me lvi n Caswell as a musician and Gus Ward was one who would take care of the finances for the school. He would take money to the bank and I had classes in the carpentry shop there and I learned quite a bit from him, as far as mannerisms and what you should be about as a male student. HUNTLEY: Living in Smithfield at the time, teenage young man growing up in Smithfield, what was it like? CHAMPION: It was like I think we need it to be, now. There was a certain time we got off the streets without having a curfew. Everybody was somewhat fearful of the policemen. Whenever they would come by and see you standing on comers, they would tell you, " ; Okay, it' ; s time to go home" ; . And they did not have to tell you but one time, the next time they came by you would have started moving before they had a chance to tell you anything. Because nine times out of ten you were just there, not necessarily waiting to rob or steal or anything like that. But, you knew you were suppose to be at home and not hanging on the comers. We would not have as much crime as we do, now because of these things. HUNTLEY: Was the police looked at by your community as one to be there to protect and serve? CHAMPION: I would think so. To protect and serve and they were fearful of what would happen to them if they were not going down the right paths. As far as right and wrong was concern. HUNTLEY: Were there ever any situations in the neighborhood where the police became an adversary to the community? CHAMPION: I don' ; t recall there being such. HUNTLEY: After you finished high school at Parker , what did you do? CHAMPION: After finishing Parker, I went to Morehouse. Like some of the people are still doing today, wherever your friends go ; that' ; s where you want to go. And you try to go there. So, the money that I had from having served in the US Navy. I was working with a friend of mine from Ensley, Valentine who was a musician. I played a few gigs with him to make extra money. But when my money ran out, I had gone on the road with an orchestra. And I heard about scholarships being offered at Alabama A & ; M University. It was Alabama A & ; M College at the time. So, I came home and I was luck y enough to get a scholarship and I went from Morehouse to Alabama A & ; M where I graduated. HUNTLEY: So, you went to Morehouse on the GI Bill? CHAMPION: No, it wasn' ; t the GI Bill. I paid my way. HUNTLEY: Okay. But you had gone to the Navy prior to going to Morehouse? CHAMPION: Yes. Prior to going to Morehouse. CHAMPION: Well, I thought it was something that I' ; d wanted, because I volunteered. I knew I didn' ; t like the Army and I had to volunteer for something. So, I knew I had to volunteer for the Air Force or the Navy and there again, a lot of my friend were volunteers for the Navy so I did, also. I had never been to California so, I was glad to get that long train ride to California that was quite exciting. And to get there and being so far away from home was also something new. HUNTLEY: Was this directly out of high school that you joined the Navy? CHAMPION: No. It was not directly out, it was during the summer months. HUNTLEY: What was that transition like then, from high school senior to a sailor? CHAMPION: It was quite interesting, but not as much as I had thought it would be. I felt I was missing something. That was some of the questions I was asked when they asked me, " ; What would I do if I got out of the Navy" ; . Because I left the Navy on the basis of having headaches that were so severe, I felt I couldn' ; t handle everything I was suppose to be handling. So, they asked, " ; what would you do if we let you out" ; ? And I said, " ; Go to school" ; . And that' ; s what I was aspiring at that time to get into somebody' ; s college. HUNTLEY: So, how long did you spend in the Navy? CHAMPION: A year and six months. HUNTLEY: So then, off to Morehouse. CHAMPION: Yes. Off to Morehouse. HUNTLEY: After Morehouse, then your money gave out so, that' ; s when you went to Alabama A& ; M on scholarship? CHAMPION: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did Alabama A& ; M have a band similar to the one at Alabama State? CHAMPION: It was just getting started back, because it had been years since they had a band. That was in 1947 when I got the scholarship that we started the band. We got new uniforms and everything that they did not have to pass on down to somebody else. So that was quite interesting and a new venture, as well. HUNTLEY: So, you graduated from Alabama A& ; M in 1950? CHAMPION: From A& ; M in 1950, yes. HUNTLEY: What did you do after graduation? CHAMPION: After graduation, I started working at Carver High School in Gadsden and after working there that first year, I started going to the University of Notre Dame working on grad courses during the summer months to further my career as an English instructor, since I majored in English at A& ; M. HUNTLEY: Alabama had a policy where going to graduate school, you could not go to graduate school at the University of Alabama. But, they had it situated where they would actually pay your tuition out of state. ls that how you went to Notre Dame? CHAMPION: No. I had no assistance from the State, per se. It was through the priest at the parish where I belonged. It was Immaculate Conception, better known to most people as Immaculata, the high school. And Father assisted me in getting a fellowship to The University of Notre Dame. That' ; s how I was able to go there. HUNTLEY: How many summers did you go? CHAMPION: I went there two summers. HUNTLEY: Did you remain at Carver? CHAMPION: I remained at Carver four years until I finally got back home and I got a job here, in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: What did you do in Birmingham? CHAMPION: I started working at Council School in Ensley. HUNTLEY: What area were you, English? CHAMPION: No, it wasn' ; t English. I couldn' ; t get into my field. I got into an area where I had quite a bit of experience and they felt I could handle the job. I as a social studies teacher and band director. HUNTLEY: I see. How long were you there? CHAMPION: I was there for four years. HUNTLEY: What did you do after that four years? CHAMPION: After four years, I had a run-in with the " ; men in blue" ; . HUNTLEY: Will you tell me about that incident? CHAMPION: It was one afternoon in April 1963, during the demonstrations. I was going out to Holy Family Hospital, my oldest daughter had just been born and at the time they did not have televisions in the room, so I was taking a small television to my wife. And in the process, I saw one of my students in the back of a car that was driven by a White guy and his companion was White, as well. So they stopped at a telephone booth and they were calling the police, but I didn' ; t know that at the time. I asked what was going on and they told me that they had one of my student and that he had been caught till-tapping at one of the five and dime stores in Ensley. HUNTLEY: What is till-tapping? CHAMPION: Till-tapping is when the cashier leaves the drawer open to the cash register and the person catches that person not on guard and puts his hand into the cash register and takes money. So happened, that he ran and they were about to make a citizen' ; s arrest as they explained it to me. So, I said, " ; Since neither of you are policemen, will you let the kid out of the car" ; ? And they were reluctant to do so, so I pushed the seat toward the dashboard so the guy could get out of the backseat and he ran. That' ; s what got everything started. And when the police did come, they had gotten instructions from Bull Conner to take me to jail, because he was going to teach me a lesson. And what he meant was teachers were not suppose to be apart of the Civil Rights Movement ; especially when it came down to demonstrations. HUNTLEY: So, he was teaching you a lesson for all the other teachers? CHAMPION: Yes. Yes. And he said I should have known better and my intelligence should have told me to stay out of it and not to have anything to do with it. HUNTLEY: Now, you were arrested, how long did you stay in jail? CHAMPION: I was incarcerated for just a number of hours. I will say about five or six hours when they let me out on my recognizance. Then I had to go to court after that and in the process, I did not win out of the trial, because they charged me with inciting to riot. Even though, the guy said I did not use any profanity and no blows were struck or anything along those lines. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the trial, the courtroom scene. What was that like, was it a jury trial? CHAMPION: It was not a jury trial, it was the decision of the judge. HUNTLEY: Did you testify in your defense? CHAMPION: I think I answered a few questions. Not like the testimony being given today. HUNTLEY: What were some of the questions that were asked of you? CHAMPION: They asked me what was I doing in the area and I told them I was out to see my wife and to take her a television in the hospital where she had just delivered our new-born child. And I told them that I was just trying to find out what was happening to a student of mine. And I did not aide in his get-away and I did not know if he was guilty or not guilty, but he ran and there was nothing I could do in light of catching him and I was not there to start a riot. HUNTLEY: Were the police asked questions, as well? CHAMPION: I don' ; t recall, exactly. HUNTLEY: Were you found innocent or guilty of inciting to riot? CHAMPION: I was found guilty. HUNTLEY: And what did that mean? CHAMPION: That meant the superintendent of education was informed to instruct me to resign or be fired. I had to tum in a letter of resignation so it would not be on my record that I was fired from the Birmingham City School System. HUNTLEY: Now, you were a family man at that time, you had a new born child, a wife, and a family. CHAMPION: Yes. And a son that was ten years of age at the time. HUNTLEY: So, how did you manage to take care of your children and your family? CHAMPION: Well, all the Black principals rallied to the cause whereby they took up enough money from their instructors that kept me from being homeless -- took care of my house note and bought groceries. And the bills I had to pay, I had no problem with that because of the money that they had taken up from the teachers who were concerned about what had happened to me. HUNTLEY: And how long did that last? CHAMPION: It went on from April until I left in August and took a job in Michigan. HUNTLEY: So, as a result of your encounter with the police, you had to leave Birmingham? CHAMPION: Yes. I wanted to stay in the profession I was involved with at the time. So, I went to Detroit seeking a job there, because I had a sister in-law that lived there. And I was offered a job at Highland Park Junior College, but it so happened they were paying more money in Flint, Michigan. So, I went to Flint Southwestern where I got a job as an English teacher and a debate coach. HUNTLEY: This is Southwestern High School? CHAMPION: Yes. High School. HUNTLEY: Prior to going to Michigan, did you ever participate in any of the activities that were going on in Birmingham? CHAMPION: Yes, I would. I would go to some of the mass meetings they were having and any meeting whereby we found that some of our people were involved in the Civil Rights Movement and they needed support in a manner that would not cause anyone to suffer because of being involved. HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what a mass meeting was like? CHAMPION: It was like a church rally, so to speak, where everyone would listen to the main speaker. It was something to get the people all pepped up as to what we were all about and trying to get seats at the lunch counters and this kind of thing and letting them know what the movement was all about. And to remain non-violent in whatever their endeavors might be as far as following the instructions and the dictates of Martin Luther King. And those who were heading the Southern Christian Leadership Conference along with the Alabama Christian Movement. HUNTLEY: Right. Did you participate in demonstrations? Did you march? CHAMPION: Yes, I did. HUNTLEY: Tell me how. Just describe what it was like to be a part of the demonstrations. CHAMPION: It was a great feeling that came over me. knowing that I was doing something that could possibly help those that would have to come behind me. And those that were not getting involved, because somebody would reap the benefits of my involvement, I felt and that' ; s why I even took a part of the March from Selma to Montgomery. And it was raining after we got there and we had to setup tents, this kind of thing is what I remember most vividly, because of the impact that it had on me and my life, so to speak. HUNTLEY: The demonstration that you took part in 1963, was that after you had resigned from your position as teacher at Council School? CHAMPION: Yes. Yes. HUNTLEY: And did the example that was being set by using you did that have an impact upon other individuals that you knew that were teachers? CHAMPION: I think it did to some degree, they did not get involved to the extent that I became involved. But they were supporters of those that did become involved and they were relaying the message as to what it was all about, as far as the movement was concerned and what the benefits might be and we kept the fight going in a non-violent manner. HUNTLEY: If you had the opportunity, would you change anything that took place during that particular period of your life? CHAMPION: If I had the opportunity, would I do so, now? HUNTLEY: Yes. Would you do the same thing or would you not participate? CHAMPION: I would participate. Yes. I would. Because, I think there' ; s a way one can go about it without having to be afraid of what might happen to him. At the time, l did not even think about my job being taken away from me or being pushed to the point where [ had to give it up. I was thinking of the end result of the movement was all about. And that' ; s what I would do if! had the opportunity to do so again. Because we need the great wakening of letting everybody know what we should be all about and some of the things we should do for ourselves, instead of waiting for somebody else to do it for us. HUNTLEY: When you left Birmingham and went to Michigan, how long were you there? CHAMPION: I was in Michigan from ' ; 63 until ' ; 70. HUNTLEY: And you returned to Birmingham at that time? CHAMPION: Yes. I returned to Birmingham to live in ' ; 70, but I came back during the year ' ; 69. That' ; s when I applied for a job at WBRC. At the time we had no Black news reporters or Black announcers at what we called, " ; White radio stations" ; . It was in December when I applied at the urging of the NAACP. And I was told they did not have any openings and they didn' ; t look forward to having any in the near future. So, I told them, " ; Thank you very much" ; . And I still have that letter where they wrote me in January saying where they did find there was an opening at WBRC, which is now, WERC radio and asked me if l would reconsider. So, I did and came back in February 1970 and took the job there as a news reporter. HUNTLEY: What was that like being the first Black news reporter? CHAMPION: It was like being what we call, " ; the token" ; . The only other Black face was the custodian and we had a news team of three men and I was the only Black. And to showcase the fact that they had a Black, I was given a news car which was white and there was a Black guy driving it making City Council meetings and covering County Commission meeting s, fires, fights, or what have you. It was quite an experience. because I had the opportunity to be showcased again to the Birmingham Rotary Club or the Kiwanis, one of the two where I was the main speaker. And there I was the only Black speaking to this mass ive White audience and it was something to behold, because 1 had no idea I would be chosen for something like that, but I was happy to serve in that capacity, hoping that maybe l could serve as an example and help somebody else have as much get up and go about themselves as I had to go ahead and reach such heights. HUNTLEY: What was your relationship with other Black radio personalities at the time who were on Black radio stations? CHAMPION: The relationship was about the same, because I started out in radio, in 1953 at WJLD and I was remembered from that and having been a musician working around the city with an orchestraI stayed in close contact with most of the guys and I knew them personally. So, they were telling me that they were glad to see me move into, possibly opening doors for someone else. Because there was only one other at the time, along with myself he was hired in ' ; 69 and I was hired in ' ; 70. HUNTLEY: Were there any racial encounters that you remember in those first days when you worked with WBRC? CHAMPION: No, I don' ; t recall that I had any. Only with Shelton down in Tuscaloosa when we had a news conference and I was assigned to go and cover it. HUNTLEY: And Shelton is? CHAMPION: He was Czar with the Klan. And he told Davenport Smith, who was our news director that whatever you do, don' ; t send that Nigger down here. Because word had gotten out that they had a Black news reporter. Everything else had worked out smoothly, because l had been seen enough times for them to know I was a native of Birmingham and I did not have any trouble out of anyone. HUNTLEY: What was the encounter like with Shelton? CHAMPION: I didn' ; t get a chance to go down. HUNTLEY: You didn' ; t? CHAMPION: No. They wouldn' ; t send me. HUNTLEY: That would have been interesting. CHAMPION: Yes, that would have been quite an experience, but I did have the opportunity to do some interviews with Don Black who was also with the Klan. He is no longer in the city, but I had a chance to cover some of his rallies out of the Brighton area and all the Blacks out there who saw me wondered why I was getting so close to this guy duringan interview and I had had him on my talk show. At that time, we had talk shows, but I would record them earlier and play them back on Sunday. So, that was quite an experience and I kept it going and I think I had his respect. I got a chance to get inside on some things that were going on and find out about their philosophy and way of life. HUNTLEY: How did those initial contacts come about, how did you make them and how receptive were they of a Black man coming to interview them? CHAMPION: Well I think they were quite receptive, because of the fact that I told them that it would be something of an interview with not just him by himself, but I had Reverend Pettigrew, who was just coming into the city at the time and it was one of those deals where they could ask each other questions that made it quite interesting for both parties as well as the listening audience. HUNTLEY: Are those interviews still around, do you have them? CHAMPION: I doubt that they are because, they would tape them and after a certain period of time, they would bolt the tape and it' ; s all gone. HUNTLEY: So,you then were around during the period when Richard Arrington became city councilperson as well as when he became mayor, of course? CHAMPION: Yes I was. HUNTLEY: What was that like working in a White establishment and appear that Blacks now, in quote, are taking over the city, did that have any impact upon what was happening on your particular job? CHAMPION: If it didthe personnel at the station didn' ; t make it known or they didn' ; t make any change as far as to how they would carry themselves in my presence. HUNTLEY: Tell me, how then do you view the changes over time in Birmingham from when you first came back to teach at Council to the present. How do you view those changes and if the changes are significant, how significant are they? CHAMPION: I think they are quite significant, because they opened doors that would not have been opened, otherwise and many have reached certain heights that they would not have attained had it not been for the movement. But it also had some effect on the progress that could have been made, because people are becoming complacent. I have found an air of complacency in many areas where people had made certain advancements asfar as buying homes and moving out in to other areas where they couldn' ; t move to beforehand. And things that they had acquired, " ; went to their heads" ; , and they forgot there was still some work to be done and there were other people that needed their assistance and some of that is still being felt, today. Many people say they don' ; t want to get involved. That' ; s the cliche' ; we hear so many times and to some degree that has hurt us more than it helped us....integration, I' ; m referring to. Because many people became complacent when they didn' ; t have to and they have forgotten that we are still Black and we will remain Black and there are certain instances that occur that reminds us of that we are still Black. And we have forgotten to keep that in mind and try to direct ourselves along those paths that we know who we are and we must still have to make progress as much as possible and look out for the people who are behind us, coming on after us. HUNTLEY: How could integration be made to be different, the transition from a segregated society to an integrated society? How could that transition have been made different? CHAMPION: If we had remembered our identity and conducted ourselves, thus ly, because if we loo k very closely and if you do some of the things I did while working outside of the south, you could see where the people are friendly to a degree. They let you know how they feel and they conduct themselves in a different manner when they leave the work place and they will invite you to so many of their affairs where normally there' ; s all White, you' ; ll still find the tokens existing. And once we realize this is what' ; s happening and start doing something about it, then we can' ; t say we are one of those who might be classified as one of complacency. HUNTLEY: Are you suggesting that we' ; ve developed such institutions then, with integration, we have become a part of other peoples' ; institutions? CHAMPION: Yes, we forget who we are, where we are, and what we are all about. HUNTLEY: So, then, that suggests that Black folk, basically were in favor of integrating, but the White society was really not accepting of integration on an equal basis? CHAMPION: Correct. They were forced to accept it, they did not do it from their hearts and it shows. If one is quite concerned about where he is and what is going on around him, he can see it and feel it, because the real warmth isn' ; t there. It' ; s a cover up in other places more so than in the South, because you would know more readily in the south than anyone would in so me of the Northern, Eastern, and Western areas. HUNTLEY: Where race relations or the movements' ; concern, are there any areas we have not touched base on that you would like to talk about? Anything that we have not covered that will be revealing to our audience in relationship to your own personal encounters in being a citizen of Birmingham. CHAMPION: Well, I think everyone should take inventory and realize that we are Black and look at what happens everyday when you go to the workplace, and you come right back home where our people are and you should do something about where you are and help that community to become what you want it to be and not move away from where the people are that you came along with even though, they have not reached a certain plateau with you it is something we can still do ourselves and not wait for somebody to do it for us or expect somebody to do it for us. And then, blame it on somebody else when we don' ; t succeed in whatever our goals might be. There' ; s a whole lot of work that we can still do ourselves. HUNTLEY: Mr. Champion, I want to thank you for coming and taking your time and sitting with us today and I appreciate it very much. CHAMPION: I am glad to have done so. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JChampion1995.xml JChampion1995.xml
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Jesse Champion Sr.
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Jessie Champion Sr. discusses leaving Birmingham after being wrongly convicted of inciting a riot. He became the first Black news reporter for WBRC after returning to Birmingham.
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19951101C
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
A.H. Parker High School Band
Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department
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1995-11-01
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video
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Kecia Lightner
Eric Watson
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Horace Huntley
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=HHuntley1998.xml
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Studies in African American history and culture
Afro American Action Committee
Carmichael, Stokely
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5.4 May 26, 1998 Dr. Horace Huntley 19980526H 2:01:13 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham University of Alabama in Birmingham. Center for Urban Studies Federal Bureau of Investigation surveillance files Studies in African American history and culture Afro American Action Committee Carmichael, Stokely Horace Huntley Kecia Lightner Eric Watson Video 1:|19(2)|36(11)|44(11)|58(12)|69(7)|84(1)|105(7)|114(9)|126(14)|143(7)|151(12)|167(14)|177(8)|189(9)|200(9)|210(1)|223(1)|232(3)|242(11)|254(1)|269(6)|280(11)|293(8)|306(15)|318(10)|327(2)|338(13)|352(2)|358(9)|367(12)|375(8)|388(13)|401(6)|413(9)|423(12)|433(7)|444(11)|453(12)|461(6)|472(10)|483(10)|493(10)|503(6)|515(6)|525(2)|535(11)|548(10)|554(4)|561(4)|571(1)|578(10)|591(4)|601(16)|611(10)|620(13)|630(13)|643(4)|653(3)|660(8)|669(14)|680(6)|692(1)|704(7)|717(13)|728(6)|738(6)|749(11)|762(9)|775(4)|784(17)|794(9)|801(6)|810(1)|819(7)|829(13)|844(14)|854(10)|869(1)|877(11)|890(13)|899(3)|910(3)|928(10)|940(8)|950(7)|961(12)|974(8)|983(12)|993(11)|1003(5)|1013(7)|1025(9)|1037(7)|1048(8)|1058(4)|1065(2)|1075(13)|1087(8)|1100(7)|1110(10)|1120(5)|1132(1)|1142(9)|1153(12)|1162(1)|1174(12)|1186(12)|1197(3)|1209(1)|1219(10)|1229(12)|1238(12)|1250(9)|1259(9)|1267(8)|1274(14)|1283(8)|1291(11)|1302(3)|1312(14)|1325(2) 0 https://youtu.be/c4siTX81DAM YouTube video English 1 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Dr. Horace Huntley for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Dr. Horace Huntley is introduced. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 28 Family Background First, we're going to ask you a pretty general question. Where were you born? Huntley begins by detailing his family history. His father worked for US Steel, but was threatened by the Ku Klux Klan, which resulted in him leaving for Michigan. Afterwards, Huntley's father was not involved in the family. International Mine, Mill, and Smelter workers ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Tennessee Coal, Iron, and Railroad Company African American families ; Working class African Americans 539 Awareness of Race & ; Discrimination Okay, you've pretty much set the pace for my next question. What was your first contact with Blacks? Huntley recalls several instances in his childhood where he discovered the differences in treatment between people of different races, including segregation in entertainment, transportation, and derogatory treatment in shops. Alabama State Fair ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Segregation in transportation--United States African Americans--Segregation ; Racial analysis 1240 Educational Background What elementary school did you attend? Huntley states that he went to Riley Elementary and Wenonah Middle and High School. When he started high school in 1957, he notes that he did not have much exposure to the events of the Movement, and was not involved in them. After high school, he had planned to attend Tuskegee, though he was not able to due to family finances, so he instead joined the military. Riley Elementary School ; Wenonah High School African American elementary schools ; African American high school students 2095 Joining the Air Force I joined the Air Force to see the world, and they sent me to Grand Forks, North Dakota. Huntley describes his time in the Air Force, where he was stationed in Grand Forks, North Dakota. Although the military was desegregated at the time, other white members exerted social pressure to segregate themselves from other Black members in the same flight. He describes social acceptance being dependent on the area in which he was. He refers to a time where he rode at the front of a bus in Winnipeg, and a white woman sat next to him. He also relays how the bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church was a topic of conversation at the military base. 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Grand Forks (N.D.) ; Winnipeg (Man.) United States. Air Force--African Americans 3183 Early Career in Minnesota What did you do after you left the Air Force? Huntley recalls how he and his wife eventually moved to Minneapolis, Minnesota, where he enrolled in the Computer Data Institute for computer technology, and afterwards worked at Honeywell. He and his wife became involved in their local community center. Careers in computer technology ; Community centers--Minnesota ; Control Data Institute ; Honeywell Inc. Minneapolis (Minn.) 3379 Advocating for African American Studies & ; Programming at the University of Minnesota Okay, let's talk a little about your time at the University, to go back to the University of Minnesota. Huntley recalls how he and other African American students involved in the Afro American Action Committee petitioned the University of Minnesota to develop an African American studies program by facilitating a sit-in protest inside the main administration building. The President of the University eventually relented and the community held a student conference that invited prominent Black figures, and the Martin Luther King Scholarship Program was created for the University. Huntley then states that he was one of the first people in the country to graduate with a degree in African American Studies. Ali, Muhammad, 1942- ; Diplomatic protests ; Martin Luther King Scholarship Fund ; Moos, Malcolm, 1916-1982 ; Turner, Emeritus J. Afro American Action Committee ; University of Minnesota ; University of Minnesota. Department of Afro-American and African Studies 4511 The Black Power Movement & ; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s Assassination You were very much a part of the Black Power movements that were going on in '65 directly. Huntley states that the Black Panther Party was involved in the community at the time and that he personally met Stokely Carmichael. He credits them for assisting the students at the University when they held the protest in the administration building. Huntley then discusses how the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. affected the Black community. Assassination--United States ; Black Panther Party ; Carmichael, Stokely ; SNCC ; Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (U.S.) Black power--United States--History--20th century ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 4777 Higher Education & ; Doctorate Okay, now you graduated from the University of Minnesota. You have one of the first degrees in African American Studies. Where did you go from there? Huntley shares the journey of his higher education, which included studying at Syracuse, teaching at State University of New York at Oswego and University of Maryland, Eastern shore, and then pursuing his doctorate at the University of Pittsburgh. His dissertation was on the International Union of Mine, Mill, and Smelter workers, and included gathering oral histories from labor workers. Labor unions, Black ; Labor--History ; Montgomery, Dave ; State University of New York at Oswego ; Syracuse University ; University of Maryland, Eastern Shore ; University of Pittsburgh African American doctoral students ; International Union of Mine, Mill, and Smelter Workers ; Oral histories 5059 Teaching at UAB & ; the Difficulties of Starting an African American Studies Program Now you have your Ph.D. What do you do from there? Huntley describes how he taught African American History, American History, and Urban Studies at UAB, during which, he tried to advocate for the development of an African American Studies department. After the administration argued that there was no funding available, he spoke with Senator Fred Horn, who stated that he could provide funding ; however, the administration instead opted to retain the same courses that were presently available. Huntley later testified in a case against institutions of higher education to reveal the inequality of education that was being developed. Clemon, U. W., 1943- ; Horn, Fred, 1925-2018 ; Murphy, Harold Lloyd ; University of Alabama in Birmingham. Center for Urban Studies Discrimination in education--United States ; Studies in African American history and culture ; University of Alabama in Birmingham 5915 Obtaining His FBI File I know you requested your FBI file through the Freedom of Information Act. Huntley details how he discovered that he was put under surveillance when he uncovered the existence of a nearly 300 page FBI file on him. United States. Freedom of Information Act Federal Bureau of Investigation surveillance files 6100 The Lack of Proportional Racial Representation in the Birmingham School System Okay, now let's go ahead and talk a little bit about the things that went on, not at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, but within the city itself. Huntley discusses how the predominately Black population of students in Birmingham could be traced back to UAB purchasing the land for its campus, displacing some African American communities who then moved into white neighborhoods ; as a result, many white people moved out to the suburbs. Huntley then highlights how those in the Black community are not fully represented in the school board in proportion to the amount of Black students who are the Birmingham education system. Birmingham City Schools ; University of Alabama in Birmingham African Americans--Education ; Proportional representation--United States ; School board members--United States 6496 Political Career I know you also got involved with the city government of Birmingham. Huntley describes his political involvement in the city of Birmingham when he ran for the city council. He states that his main platform was about the development of Black businesses He further discusses the inequality that Black businesses faced in comparisons to businesses own by people who are White. Birmingham Historical Commission ; Birmingham Historical Society ; Blankenship, Don ; City council members ; Million Man March (1995 : Washington, D.C.) ; Muhammad, William African Americans--Politics and government Oral History Dr. Horace Huntley discusses advocating for the creation of African American Studies programs at various institutions, including UAB. His civil rights rights involvement led to an extensive file and surveillance by the FBI. LIGHTNER: This is an interview with Dr. Horace Huntley for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. Dr. Huntley is the Director of the Oral History Project here at the Institute. The interview will be conducted by Kecia Lightner and Eric Watson. Today is May 26, 1998. We are currently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. First we would like to thank you, Dr. Huntley for taking time out of your busy schedule and talking with us. HUNTLEY: Thank you. LIGHTNER: First we' ; re going to ask you a pretty general question. Where were you born? HUNTLEY: I was born here in Birmingham. In fact, I was born at the, what is now the University Hospital, then it was the Hillman Hospital. LIGHTNER: Oh, okay. HUNTLEY: I was born in 1942 in the city, which, of course, was the height of the segregationist era. Black people were not allowed to come in the front door. That day, December 5, 1942, both my grandmothers actually walked into the front door of the Hillman Hospital and they decided that this was a new day and they were not going to go around the back that day. LIGHTNER: Oh, they pretty much started a desegregation movement themselves. HUNTLEY: They started it in 1942 on December 5. So, we celebrate it every December. (Laughing) LIGHTNER: What community were you raised in? HUNTLEY: In the Riley Community, which is a southwestern community about a mile southwest of Powderly. LIGHTNER: Exactly what type of jobs did the people engage in, in that type of community? HUNTLEY: Well, I actually lived on a dead end street. On my street there were mostly working class people. My, see, I lived with my grandmother, who was a domestic, my mother, who was a licensed practical nurse and I lived with, there were three of us, my brother and sister. Then, there were two first cousins. So, another aunt, she didn' ; t live there, but her children lived with us. She worked out of town and she would go back and forth between Birmingham and Hale County. She taught at Hale County. So, our family was, more or less, teachers and nurses. My uncle, he was a mechanic. He repaired cars. Other people on the street were steel workers. There was a miner. In the wider community there were other people who were teachers, ministers. Most of the people in my community were domestics, like my grandmother. LIGHTNER: Now you mentioned your mother was an LPN. HUNTLEY: Right. LIGHTNER: What type of educational background did your father have? HUNTLEY: My father was a welder. He had a high school education. My mother and father were divorced very early. I never remembered them living together. So, before I started first grade they were separated. I' ; m not sure if they were divorced at that time. So, I was raised by my grandmother and my mother. It was rather interesting because he moved to Michigan. The reason that he did was because he worked in the mine after he got out of the navy. He went in the navy. He worked in the mine and in the mine, in the mid to late ' ; ' ; 40s, again this is Birmingham, Alabama. He had a dispute with a White worker and he beat this man up. About 4:00 in the morning, I was told that the police came to the house, arrested him and took him to the Brownsville Jail. Brownsville is a little place just southwest of Riley. That' ; s where his folks lived. That' ; s where he and my mother were living at the time with his folks. My grandfather was a member of the International Union of Mine, Mill and Smelter workers. He had very little education and someone told him that they had come and picked his son up to take him to the jail. He said to them, " ; Well, they can' ; t do anything to that boy until they get hearing from across the water." ; Everybody wanted to know what that meant. The only thing that I could figure that it meant was that he was a member of the International Union. So, he figured the union was going to handle it and they wouldn' ; t harm him or anything. The Klan told my father that he had to get out of town or they were going to do something to him. So, as a result, that was part of why he left and went to Michigan. My mother went and spent some time and as a result of that they really never did make up. She came back home to Birmingham. LIGHTNER: Now what company did your father work for? HUNTLEY: It was US Steel, TCI at the time, Tennessee Coal and Iron. He was an iron ore miner initially for a brief time after getting out of the military. He was following the footsteps of his father. My grandfather was an iron ore miner. Then, he went to. Michigan and worked for General Motors and he became a welder. LIGHTNER: And your parents were both born and raised in Birmingham? HUNTLEY: No, my mother was born in Tuscaloosa but raised in Birmingham. My father was born and raised in Birmingham. LIGHTNER: Now, you mentioned a brother and a sister. Is that the only make up of your siblings? And if so, what line do you fall in? HUNTLEY: Well, I was the oldest, I am the oldest. My brother is next and my sister is the baby. They both still live here in Birmingham. LIGHTNER: And your grandmother, you mentioned her and I understand, she' ; s probably a pretty forceful lady, just give her a chance. What was her educational background? HUNTLEY: Momma could not read or write. She was illiterate, but she was the smartest person I ever knew. She was my hero. Well, in Black families there were always discussions of color. In my family my grandmother and I were the darkest in the family. Everybody else was light skinned. So, they would always tease me about being Black, but they were doing that in order to make me feel good about myself, you know. But they would always say, " ; You and momma are the Blackest ones in the family and you' ; re not light skinned like we are." ; They were really using reverse psychology, my aunt particularly. That was always very interesting, because I would always say, " ; Momma knows everything, so I' ; ll be just like momma." ; So, I was proud of that. In fact, as I said, momma couldn' ; t read. In fact, she couldn' ; t read her name. When I was...the mailman would come and we would have to sign and I would have to sign for her and read it to her. But I remember as we were growing up she would always read to us every night. We thought she was reading. She would get a book every night and before we would go to bed she would read and one night my mother came home early and said she was going to read to us. She got the same book that momma was reading and she read. We said, " ; No, no, that' ; s not right. Momma didn' ; t say that." ; So, we always had a big laugh out of that. But my grandmother was the matriarch of the family on my mother' ; s side. She always said she wanted her children to go to school because she didn' ; t want any of them working in any of those White folks kitchen. LIGHTNER: Ok, you' ; ve pretty much set the pace for my next question. What was your first contact with Blacks? I know you mentioned your father had a run...well, not with Blacks, with Whites. I know you mentioned your father had a run in with the Klan here. HUNTLEY: Right. LIGHTNER: Was that your first contact with others of another race? HUNTLEY: Well, actually in our community, we lived on one street and Whites lived on the next street. There was a family that lived right in the back of us whose name was Zito. They owned a grocery store. My grandmother worked for them, took care of the children, cleaned there homes and everything. But the children and I grew up together. We were really like best friends, prior to going to school. And we were, I was in their house a lot and they were in our house a lot. At that particular time, of course, the issue of race was really not an issue for us at that young age. I can remember, though, that our parents, my grandmother and mother were real stricter than their parents were. In fact, I remember being at their home one day and his mother, his mother said something to him and he didn' ; t like it. So he smarted off at her and she hit him and he hit her back. Then, the mother left and then we went on out to play. That' ; s impressionable for a young mind, thinking oh, he got away with it, I better try this. I got home that afternoon and our mother said something to me and she hit me and I hit her back and boy she almost beat me to death. (Laughing) I said I learned a lesson then, that I can' ; t do the same thing that Frankie does with his mother because there will be a little bit more consequences. LIGHTNER: So even at that young age and with that little incident you kind of learned that the races were different. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. LIGHTNER: Now I kind of read in other interviews that the Birmingham Police Department was pretty prevalent in neighborhoods during that time. Did you or your family members have any contact with the Birmingham Police Department? And if so, what were they? HUNTLEY: Well, I never remember the police coming to our house. I remember an incident where the man across the street from us, his name is Mr. Robert. And Mr. Robert every Friday...he was a contractor, he would build homes and in the summer I would actually work with him. But every Friday Mr. Robert would get drunk. He had a, we lived on a dirt street, with gravel and his house was directly across the street from ours. We were on a dead end so he had to back out and then back out in front of our house and then pull onto the street. And when he was drunk we knew that we had to get out of the way because when he pulled out, he was going to put it into low gear and take off and throw gravel up on our porch, you know. I remember once he got drunk and he went out to the neighborhood store. The neighborhood store was owned by White people and that day when he went up there an old policeman was there. Mr. Robert said something to the man and then took off running. The old man couldn' ; t run as fast as Mr. Robert, although Mr. Robert was drunk. He came out and he had his gun out. And Mr. Robert' ; s wife and everybody else in the community was sort of watching. She went out and begged this policeman, cause Mr. Robert was sitting down at the end of the street cursing that policeman out. He was telling him everything that he ever wanted to tell a White person. She went out and she pleaded with him not to shoot Mr. Robert. I said he was drunk and he didn' ; t shoot him and he allowed him to go into the house and go to bed or whatever. That was an encounter. There was another encounter but not with a policeman. There was a grocery store, no two grocery stores. One owned by a White family and the other owned by an Italian family. Then, there was another one that was a service station that was owned [inaudible]. Their son was a policeman, but they were known members of the Klan. Momma would send me out to get whatever, to get a drink, washing powder, or whatever. And also the mailman would come there and sit and that' ; s where he collected the mail from. So, one day I went out and I was going to mail a letter, but I didn' ; t have a stamp. So, I gave Mr. Pierce three cents and said, " ; Would you mail this for me?" ; I asked him if he would mail that for me. He said, " ; What do you want me to do, lick the stamp for you, too?" ; So, I said, " ; That' ; s ok." ; I walked out and I didn' ; t go back into that store for I don' ; t know how long, but it seems like a long time. He said to my grandmother, " ; That boy of yours, he thinks he' ; s something. He don' ; t come back out here anymore." ; Momma came back and asked what happened. I didn' ; t even tell her about it. I told her that I don' ; t have to go out to his store and I would not go and be, what I considered to be, disrespected by him. Although I didn' ; t have to say anything to him, but I didn' ; t have to go out to his store. So, momma said, " ; You' ; re right." ; She never did make me go back or anything. But the police in the neighborhood were treacherous. We had car number 51. When you saw car number 51 coming you knew that there was something going on. I remember that they picked up one of my friends, he was older than I was. We used to sort of hang out on the corner at this little delicatessen. They picked up this buddy of mine...well, he wasn' ; t a buddy he was older, but I knew him from the neighborhood. I don' ; t really remember what had happened but something had happened. They put him in the back seat of the car and in the back seat was a German Shepherd. That was not a pretty sight. The policemen were not in our neighborhoods to protect and serve. They were simply there to control the community and they did. LIGHTNER: So, you pretty much realized this at an early age and you knew exactly how turbulent the racial situation was and everything. HUNTLEY: There were all kinds of examples. Because I didn' ; t have a father figure, my grandmother wanted to make sure that I was manly, whatever that meant. I was 10, 11, or 12 years old she would send me downtown to pay the bills. We didn' ; t have checking accounts at the time. I would go downtown to pay...I remember walking to Alabama Power, Alabama Gas, to furniture stores and other places similar to that. You really don' ; t think much about it at that particular time but in retrospect, you know, I thought about that. You go and get on a segregated bus, you sit in the back of that bus and you ride downtown. It had the board on it saying " ; White" ; on one side and " ; Colored" ; on the other side. You ride downtown and you get off the bus and go to Alabama Power and you have to go to the second floor. You can' ; t ride the regular elevator you have to walk up or ride the freight elevator. She would always give me enough money to go to the show, get some popcorn, or buy a record, or whatever. I would always go to Newberry' ; s. I remember going to Newberry' ; s and purchasing a hot dog and get that hot dog and once you purchased a hot dog then you would have to take it outside to eat it. You could not sit at the counter. There was the Leary Theater, where the Blacks sat in the balcony and the Whites sat on the first floor. We always said that was one of the mistakes that the segregationist made, because we would go to the Leary Theater and get some water and toss it down on them, you know. (Laughing) Then, we would take off and go to 4th Avenue to the Famous or the Carver Theater. So, we always wondered why they made that mistake, why did they put us up there because we had all the fun. I remember getting back on the bus to go home, going pass the Fairgrounds and never being able to go out there. I always wanted to go out to the Fairgrounds because of the glamour. The scene was so glamourous. I always wanted to go to the Alabama Theater because of all of the lights and it was more glamourous than the Carver Theater. I actually had some friends that could pass for Whites and they went into the Alabama Theater and they would come back and tell us how glamourous it was. I never got a chance to go in at that particular junction. The first time I got a chance to go to a State Fair...well, here the Black people were given a day at the State Fair. My grandmother was a proud Black woman. She said, " ; If we couldn' ; t go everyday, then we wouldn' ; t go any day." ; So, I never got to go to a State Fair until I was 23 years old in St. Paul, Minnesota. I got a chance to go to the State Fair and I loved everything. I think I must have eaten some of everything and I was sick as a dog. (Laughing) Those are the kinds of things you think about once you' ; ve gotten out of the situation that you are in. You don' ; t really think about it while you' ; re going through it. LIGHTNER: What elementary school did you attend? HUNTLEY: Well, I started first grade at Riley Elementary School. At that time we lived probably eight blocks from Riley Elementary. At the school, and I remember there was a big white building. It' ; s not the same Riley School now that they are rebuilding, but it was a big white wood structure. Well, it was a wood structure painted white. At the entrance there was a big sign that said, Riley Negro School. I remember that just as plain as it was yesterday. At the school we had Mrs. Davis was the principal and she was a pretty big woman and she had a strap. We called that strap Black Magic. You didn' ; t want to get out of line because Black Magic would come and visit you. I think she believed in corporal punishment. LIGHTNER: Now what about the racial mix up of the teachers and the students. You said it was all Black. So the teachers were all Black as well? HUNTLEY: The teachers were all Black and the students were all Black. The community was all Black, primarily, you know. As I told you, my best friends during the summer, prior to going to school, were all White, well they were Italian. But when we started to go to school, they went into a Catholic School. Then, we went to our school and we would play in the afternoons up until, I guess, probably until we got to Junior High School, maybe. Of course, in high school we would never associate. We would see each other but we would never really...well, in the summers we would still play baseball together. Outside of just right there in the neighborhood there were really no good association between us. LIGHTNER: Now were you involved in any extracurricular activities at Riley Elementary School? HUNTLEY: At Riley I was always active in...we always had to do speeches, different kinds of programs, assembly programs. I was always very active in those. I don' ; t remember having clubs of any kind, like math clubs until we got to high school. I was pretty active. Whatever was going on I was pretty involved in it in elementary school. LIGHTNER: What high school did you attend? HUNTLEY: Went to Wenonah High School. Prior to going to Wenonah High, I actually went to Wenonah Middle School. Riley went from 1st to 8th grade. Then, in the 6th grade I got in a fight at Riley and got kicked out of school. Then, I decided not to go back to Riley, I went to Wenonah Middle School. It was rather interesting what the fight was about. My brother was mentally retarded and another family that lived in Riley had a brother that was mentally retarded. They got into a fight and I interceded the other girls. It was only girls in that family. We got into a big to do. Their family, both their grandmother and grandfather worked at the school, so they were much better known than my folks were. So the fight then was blamed on me and I got kicked out of school and they didn' ; t get kicked out of school. I was upset and I said I was not going back to that school. I asked momma if I could go to Wenonah and I did. LIGHTNER: What were your experiences like at Wenonah Elementary School? HUNTLEY: Well, Wenonah was a larger school and I got to meet kids from other communities. Like at Riley we basically just knew each other in the community. But at Wenonah there were kids from other adjoining neighborhoods. So, I got to know a lot more students. Still I was a pretty good student, not at the top of the class but pretty close. I remember we had, we always talked about if students learned better with other students with their capability or do you mix it up. A lot of times we had a guy in our class, his name was Bull Man, that was his nickname. Bull Man, you always had a child in class that can' ; t learn, well, Bull was one of those people. But we wanted Bull to be just as good in school as we were. So, we decided, cause he never participated. So when we got together we said, " ; Bull, this is going to be your question." ; We had a number of questions we had to answer. Number eight was going to be Bull Man' ; s question. So, we said, " ; When Mr. Henry asks for number eight nobody else raise their hands, that' ; s Bull Man' ; s question." ; So, when number eight came around Bull didn' ; t raise his hand and nobody else raised their hand. (Laughing) Then, all of us looked at Bull Man and then finally he said, " ; Oh, that' ; s mine." ; He raised his hand and he answered the question. He learned it. He actually learned it and we were all excited about Bull Man participating. That was sort of a highlight of the academic experience, to get somebody else involved in the process. The elementary school was down the hill from the high school. All of the bigger kids would walk through the elementary school grounds going to the high school and you always thought, man I would like to be able to go up that hill at 8:00 in the morning. So, we always had this idea that it was so much more glamourous to be in high school than it was in elementary school and, of course, eventually we would make it there. LIGHTNER: So, what were your experiences like at Wenonah High School? HUNTLEY: It was good experiences. I enjoyed Wenonah High. We were still in the 9th Grade, we were not in a special class. This of course meant that there would be students from most of the southwest Birmingham. A larger geographic area than what had been at Riley or Wenonah Elementary School. I met people from Roosevelt, Bessemer, Raymond, Powderly, Shades Valley and those kids that came from a distance were bused in. We had about 15 bus loads that were brought in everyday to the school. In the 10th grade, well, actually from about the 7th or 8th grade I always wanted to be an astronomer. I was pretty good in math. Then I got to 10th grade and I got the big head. I was good and I made good grades but I don' ; t think I learned very much after the 10th grade. Although I still, out of about 200 I was probably about 20 or something, maybe the low ' ; ' ; 20s. I was good in math but after the 10th grade one of my instructors told us that anybody that sells " ; x" ; number of ads will get an " ; A" ; in the course. This was for Algebra. So, that was no problem. So I went and sold my ads so I didn' ; t have to learn Algebra then. I thought I was getting over. Of course, that would come back to haunt me because I never got any more math. You know I couldn' ; t do Algebra and to this day I still can' ; t do Algebra but I passed. I got " ; As" ; and " ; Bs" ; in all of my classes from then on. Then, when I got to college I needed that Algebra and couldn' ; t do it. I was a member of the Honor Society and I was a member of a couple of other clubs. I was a big sports enthusiast. I played a lot of sports in the neighborhood. In the 9th grade I was titled as one of the better athletes in the community. So, when I got to high school, 9th grade, my reputation had sort of beat me up there. So, what I did, again I sort of got the big head and I was playing one day and the coach of the junior varsity saw me playing and told my cousin, " ; I would like for him to play for me." ; So I told my cousin, " ; if he wants me to play for him he can come and ask me." ; He never did come and ask me to play. So, I never went out for the team in the 9th grade. The 10th grade I went out and I always say he didn' ; t let me make the team because of the 9th grade...or in the 11th grade. I probably wasn' ; t as good as I thought I was. In the 12th grade I finally made the team and then I had my first attack of asthma. Then, the doctor wouldn' ; t allow me to play and I was really sick then. (Laughing) I never did compete in athletics in high school. LIGHTNER: Now when you' ; re in high school that' ; s the early ' ; 50s, mid ' ; 50s? HUNTLEY: I graduated in ' ; 61. Started high school in ' ; 57. LIGHTNER: So, a lot of things had taken place in Birmingham by the time that you arrived in high school. In ' ; 54 we have Brown versus Board of Education, ' ; 56 NAACP is outlawed in Alabama and the formation of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights gets off the ground. Did you have any knowledge that these events were going on? And if so, were you involved in any of them? HUNTLEY: I did not. Of course, the Brown versus Board decision I don' ; t remember that, didn' ; t know anything about it happening. In ' ; 56 when the Movement started and the NAACP was outlawed I had no knowledge of that. I did know vaguely about the Alabama Christian Movement and people going to jail, riding the bus and that kind of thing, but I was never involved in any of it. We lived really on the outskirts, in fact, at that time we were in the county. We were about seven miles from downtown. So, most of the movement of those early days sort of by-passed us. We were not involved. No one in my family was involved. However, later on in the ' ; 60s, my wife, who would become my wife, her father and her grandmother were very actively involved. So, there were two or three of her siblings that were involved. But in those days before ' ; 61, before I graduated I didn' ; t even know anybody that was involved in the movement. LIGHTNER: Ok. What did you do after high school? HUNTLEY: I had planned to go to Tuskegee, we were in the accelerated class so we got these diplomas and there were ten of us in my homeroom class that were going to go to Tuskegee. One day our advisor, we were talking to her, she said, " ; I know all of you are planning to go to Tuskegee, but one of you are not going to go." ; We looked at her kind of strange because we knew that all of us were going. She evidently had already talked with my mother. My mother couldn' ; t afford to send me to Tuskegee and I didn' ; t know anything about the work programs. So, all of them went to Tuskegee and I joined the military. I joined the air force to see the world and they sent me to Grand Forks, North Dakota. LIGHTNER: Pretty far away from home. HUNTLEY: I left here on August 11th and spent two months in Texas, Lackland Air Force Base for basic training. Then, I came back to Birmingham for leave about 30 days and then left Birmingham sometime in October. It was about 75 degrees, so I wore my summer uniform. I got to North Dakota and it was 20 degrees. The wind chill was about 10 below. I had never experienced anything like that in all my days. That was, happened to have been one of the warmer days that I would experience in North Dakota. It was nothing for the temperature to get down to 35 to 40 below 0 and with the wind chill 90 to 95 below. So that was quite an experience from Birmingham, Alabama in mid October to Grand Forks, North Dakota. It was more than I had bargained for. LIGHTNER: Other than the weather adjustments what other adjustments did you have to go through in the military? This is, of course, after the armed forces is desegregated but at the same time there is still a lot of forces working within that. HUNTLEY: It' ; s interesting because in basic training all of us Blacks and Whites were made to feel like nothing, like dirt. Then, they would build you up. I remember when I was waiting during the summer I had taken the test to go into the army and two of my other buddies took the test. They were older than I. They took the test and they passed it but the army sent back and said I didn' ; t pass the test. I was really upset. So, I went and took the test for the air force. It seemed like it took forever to get the results back and I was impatient and said, " ; if I don' ; t get my results back tomorrow I' ; m going to go take the test for the navy." ; So, that day I got my results and I passed. I remember going to Montgomery for my physical. I thought I was going to be able to go back home. From Montgomery they sent me directly to Grand Forks Air Force Base. I was the only Black on the train going to San Antonio, Texas. The train was interstate, so it was not segregated. All of us were, more or less, together. But I remember all those guys, all the White guys and they would sort of huddle up in the compartment and I was just part...This one guy looked at me and said to me that I needed to go some place else. Everybody else sort of said the same thing. So, I left. So, I was basically by myself all the way from Alabama to Texas. When we got to Lackland Air Force Base we were going to be a part of a flight. Evidently what they had done they had all Whites from Alabama, with the exception of myself, and all Blacks from Philadelphia. So, I got with the brothers from Philadelphia and we took care of some business based upon what happened on the train. While there, we became very close, Black and White. I remember one of myWhite friends, he was not a best friend, but we were members of the same flight. He was from Savannah, Georgia, I believe, somewhere in Georgia. We left the base after the two months and we sat together on the bus going to the airport and then we sat together on the plane. The plane took off from San Antonio and we had a stop at Shreveport, Louisiana. All this time we had been spending a lot of time together and everybody is the same, basically. We got to Shreveport and we go into the airport and we both sit down at a table to order and this waitress came over and she said to me, " ; I can' ; t serve you here, you have to go over to the other side." ; That hit me in the face like a bowl of grits, hot grits. And still, I didn' ; t say anything, I just got up and left. I thought he would get up and leave as well. He didn' ; t leave he just sat there. We got back on the plane, this was the same plane. Rather than sitting in the seat next to me, he moved and sat at another seat. That said an awful lot to me about, of course, about him, but it also said a lot about the pressures on him to conform to what we thought we had left. We never said anything else to each other. LIGHTNER: Now what will be your next destination after Louisiana? HUNTLEY: Birmingham. That was just a stop off in Shreveport and then to Birmingham. Then, after Birmingham I would get my assignment to Grand Forks, North Dakota. That was rather interesting because in Grand Forks there were no Black folk, except those who were on the base. I remember going to a restaurant when I first got up there. This lady was sitting across in this booth from me with two small children. This little boy kept staring at me. Finally, she was trying to stop him from starying, finally, he couldn' ; t take it no more. He said, " ; mom, look at that funny kind of man." ; She apologized, but she said she was sorry but he had never seen a Black man before. I was just taken aback, you know. I thought everybody had seen us some place. (Laughing) You could go downtown in Grand Forks, in fact, when I got to Minneapolis you would go downtown and you wouldn' ; t see any Black folks. There was some difficulty between Blacks and town people. They didn' ; t really care for Blacks to come downtown to spend the day and they made that known. Every year the Red River would flood and then they would call and the base would send volunteers down. So, they' ; ve always asked for volunteers. So, every year before I got there they would go down and they would call it sand bag. My first year there, after finding that the people didn' ; t want us downtown during the rest of the year, they would ask for volunteers, but actually they were preparing us to go downtown. I refused to go. I told the other guys that, " ; if you go you' ; re crazy. They don' ; t want us down here any other time." ; So, the other guys then in my squadron, anyway, decided not to participate. Nothing happened. They didn' ; t reprimand or anything, but we decided we were going to take that stand. This may have been one of the first times that I had taken a stand on an issue where a race seemed to have been paramount. LIGHTNER: So, although you are in another geographic region it' ; s kind of much like being in Birmingham? HUNTLEY: Yeah, when it came to interaction, it was very much like Birmingham. There was little...Now, we could go to Canada and it was totally different, like day and night. That' ; s where many of us would go on the weekends, to Winnipeg [inaudible]. People there were seemingly totally different where race was concerned. This was White people and there were some Blacks there, too. They looked at us very differently than the people in the states. I remember I wanted to go to Canada so I could sit on the front of the bus (Laughing) and I did. I went, that was the first thing I did when I got there. I got my hotel and I went and sat on the front of the bus. I was just riding, enjoying myself. A few blocks down the bus stopped and this White female got on, a young girl, I guess probably about my age. She got on the bus and the bus wasn' ; t crowded or anything and she sat down right next to me. I almost had spasms. This was a White woman sitting next to me, don' ; t you know I' ; m from Birmingham and you can' ; t do that. I was actually rather scared, you know. All I could think about was that I knew that Bull Conner had me on camera someplace and was watching every move and I sat just like this. Not only did she sit there but she started to talk to me. After awhile I got comfortable and I think we had a pretty good discussion, but I was terrified. LIGHTNER: So that mentality was still pretty much engraved in you? HUNTLEY: You could take me out of Birmingham, but you couldn' ; t take Birmingham out of me at that particular time. Not in that sense. I remember that just very, very vividly that I wanted to go, cause I wanted to sit on the front of the bus. I never imagined this White woman was going to come sit next to me. I did know that White women were dating Black men because that' ; s why the brothers were going to Manitoba, for the women. They were basically White women and I knew that. I guess that probably had something to do with my wanting to go. The first thing I wanted to do was sit in the front of that bus. LIGHTNER: Now, did you keep in touch with any of your relatives back home as to what exactly was going on here? I know in the ' ; 60s a lot of things were happening in Birmingham. In ' ; 63 was a really turbulent year for Birmingham. The bombing of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. A lot of the demonstrations with the kids were going on trying to desegregate the stores downtown. Did you have any awareness of that going on? HUNTLEY: ...I actually kept a running tab. I would get the Minneapolis Tribune everyday and I made a scrap book with every article that the Minneapolis Tribune had on that particular era between April and May of 1963. I kept all of those articles. I was in constant contact. In fact, I would request leave in May of ' ; 63 and the officer I worked for said he wouldn' ; t give me the leave because I didn' ; t need to go to Alabama at that time. I told him whether you give me the leave or not, I have to go to Birmingham. He understood that I was going to come anyway so he did give me the leave. So, I did get to come home, probably right after the children' ; s demonstrations. I was home probably about a month at that time. Normally when I would come home I would stay 30 days. So, I spent time here in Birmingham, but my girlfriend was at Tuskegee. So, I spent as much time in Tuskegee as I did in Birmingham. LIGHTNER: Do you remember the day that the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church was bombed? HUNTLEY: I don' ; t remember the day but I remember that we...I don' ; t know if it was that day or sometime that week, but I can remember sitting in our day room. That' ; s where our TV was in the barracks. We, I don' ; t think we had any disturbances, but there was some discussion about Birmingham. What most people would ask is what was it like to live in Birmingham. Everybody thought that. They just couldn' ; t believe that I was from Birmingham, Alabama. I can not recall that specific day that it happened, but I know that there were discussions about it. It may have been that day or a few days after. I had a clipping of that as well. When I first got to North Dakota there were very few Blacks from the South. I would just ask people where were they from. Everybody was from Cleveland, Chicago, or Philadelphia. I noticed that there were guys that had Black southern accents. So, there was this one brother and I said, " ; I know you' ; re my homeboy." ; He said, " ; No, I' ; m from PA." ; I said, " ; PA?" ; I was kind of puzzled. A few days later I saw him again and I said, " ; Where did you say you were from?" ; He said, " ; I' ; m from PA, man." ; I said, " ; Man, you know you' ; re from Mississippi." ; (Laughing) He said, " ; No, I' ; m from PA." ; Finally, I guess it was a few days later, I said, " ; Come on homeboy tell me where you are from." ; He said, " ; I' ; m from PA." ; I said, " ; Well, what does PA mean?" ; He said, " ; Pine Apple, Alabama." ; (Laughing) Those guys who were from Mississippi, Alabama, from Georgia they would always say they were from someplace else. It was not until myself, a buddy from Jackson and another buddy from Mississippi and one from Virginia we would always say where we were from. There was one guy who swore he was from Cleveland, Ohio. We just accepted it. One day they put our serial numbers on our doors. Our numbers started with 1476 and this guy, we got home that evening from work and we looked at all the doors and on his door, we knew that he was not from Cleveland, but we didn' ; t know where he was from. He had the same first four that we had. And 1476 was Alabama, Mississippi and Georgia. It turned out that he was from Meridian, Mississippi. He was so upset that we found out that he actually cried. He did not want to be from the south. For obvious reasons no one wanted to be associated with the brutality and the supposed subordination that Black folks had to encounter in the south. So, he didn' ; t want to be from the south. WATSON: What did you do after you left the air force? HUNTLEY: When I left the air force I went to Minneapolis, Minnesota and I was enrolled in an electronics school, Control Data Institute. In fact, I was in the very first class that Control Data ever had for computer, it wasn' ; t for computer programming, although we had programing. It was for computer technology, I guess. I finished school there. But while there we were, Barbara and I, my wife, we were married in ' ; 64. She was a senior at Tuskegee and I was going on my last year in the air force. She went back to Tuskegee and I went back to [inaudible]. So we were apart for that one year. Then, when I got out of the service I went to Minneapolis and she finished school and then she came to Minneapolis. So we met there and that' ; s where we really first set our household. We were young, 22, I believe. That summer we both volunteered at a community center because she was going to be teaching in the fall. So, she started teaching in the fall and I started school in the fall at the electronics school. We stayed at the community center in the evenings. After finishing that electronics school I then went to work for Honeywell. I worked for Honeywell part time. Part of the time I was in the school and then I went to [inaudible] Control Data and I finished there. We still volunteered at the community center in the evenings. This was with young children. I was associated with the community, but the community was associated with the church. It' ; s a Baptist Community Center. The kids were from elementary to high school age. It was rather interesting, because we were rather young ourselves. Barbara was, she looked like she was in 9th grade or something. She looked real young. We had a good rapport with the kids at the time. So, I went on and worked for a year at Control Data and after that year I decided, with some encouragement from Barbara, to go back to the University of Minnesota. So, that' ; s when I started at the University. I was a 25 year old freshman during that time. WATSON: Ok, let' ; s talk a little about your time at the University. A lot of important things happened while you were there. First of all what was the racial make up of the University of Minnesota when you entered? HUNTLEY: When I entered in 1967 there was about 47,000 students at the University of Minnesota. Out of 47,000 there were 87 Black students. The vast majority of those were from Minneapolis or St. Paul even. It was rather curious because in the south when we saw people we always spoke. The people in Minnesota, Blacks in Minnesota, if you see them on campus they wouldn' ; t speak to you. There were I guess three or four of us from the south. I remember when I first met sister Rose Freeman. We became real good friends. She spoke and I spoke, I think, probably, simultaneously. It was a great feeling because we had been ignored. Nobody would speak before and we started talking and it was like we had been close friends for a long time. Then, we started, well actually she started a year before I got involved in the organization, Afro American Action Committee and I got involved with the group. Rose was president at the time. I got involved and remember I' ; m a little bit older than most of the students. I knew what I had to do to get out of there. We spent a lot of time in the rec room. I would sort of tell the youngsters, " ; you need to get out of here and go to class." ; So, we spent a lot of time together and then, trying to develop some of a cohesiveness with some of the Black students on campus. A lot of them were athletes and athletes were not involved at all. I got involved with the athletes through a fraternity. I joined the Omega Psi Phi fraternity. Most of the athletes were confused as well. As a result of that bond, we then got them involved in the Afro American Action Committee. That would lead to some real unified efforts on campus in relationship to a number of issues that we were involved in. WATSON: Okay. Could you just tell me a little bit about what the committee did? HUNTLEY: The committee was basically interested in getting more Black students enrolled at the University. We developed sort of a campaign to get that done. It was rather difficult because the administration didn' ; t see the need in allocating funds for that. What we wanted to do was to set up in...' ; 68 as a result of Dr. King' ; s assassination. We want them to set up a Martin Luther King scholarship fund. They didn' ; t see the need to do it at the time. We also were developing a national Black student conference, where we were attracting people from all over the country to come to the University of Minnesota. If people come here and find out what' ; s here then some would probably enroll. The University wasn' ; t interested in that as well. We also...I had an experience in one of my classes where, in an American History class. The professor' ; s name was Professor Burkhoffer. Professor Burkhoffer, he didn' ; t like students, period. (Laughing) He was very arrogant and no one ever spoke in his class. He lectured for 45 minutes and he left. If you wanted to talk about any issues you talk with his teaching assistants. So, one day he talked about slavery for about five minutes. That' ; s the only time he mentioned Black folks in class. So, when I raised my hand, he didn' ; t acknowledge my hand. So, I stood up. He still didn' ; t acknowledge me. So, finally, I just interrupted him. I said, " ; Excuse me, Professor Burkhoffer." ; He just looked at me and everybody else was just looking at me, too. I' ; m the only Black, there were only two of us in the class out of probably 400. I asked him, " ; You just covered the subject of Black history in 5 minutes. The only time that you' ; ve talked about Black people in this class is when you talked about slavery. Are you going to cover anything else where Blacks are concerned? Any Black history?" ; He said, " ; Oh, is there more?" ; very arrogantly. I said, " ; Sure there is and I started talking." ; He said, " ; Well, I' ; ll give you equal time." ; I said, " ; Well, does that mean that I will have the rest of the term to clear up many of the things that you' ; ve been saying that' ; s incorrect?" ; He didn' ; t like that. He said, " ; No, I' ; ll give you a class period." ; So, he gave me a class period. I had, prior to coming to the University I had met a guy by the name of Mahmoud El-Kati. Mahmoud was a historian and he became my mentor. So when he told me he was going to give me a class period, I was kind of frightened, you know. I' ; ve got to talk in front of people that I had never met before. So, I went and talked to Mahmoud. Mahmoud then gave me some advice on how to do it and where to get my material from. [inaudible] I don' ; t even remember what I talked about but I remember feeling very good about it. After it was over...well prior to then, prior to my doing the talk, he tried to frighten me. He said, " ; Well, you know I' ; m going to have all my TA' ; s here and I will probably invite some of my colleagues over to listen to your lecture." ; I said, " ; Well, that' ; s fine." ; I couldn' ; t back up then. I said, " ; Well, do you think you could get Williams Arena and could you get WCCO TV here to tape it?" ; You know, I' ; m just going on, you know. Anyway, I gave the lecture and then afterwards I felt good about it and I thought I had done a good job. I went over and asked him. He said, " ; You did a good job." ; Everybody was coming up and praising me and everything. I knew that, now I' ; m getting arrogant. I said, " ; Since I did such a good job, I would like that to be in lieu of my final exam." ; He said, " ; Oh sure." ; He did and he gave me a " ; C" ; out of the class. We then started clamoring for a development of an African American Studies Department. This time then there were three issues on the table. There was the African American Studies Department, the development of the Martin Luther King scholarship fund and asking the administration to assist us financially in carrying out the Black student conference. And on all three counts they said no. So, the Afro American Action Committee then went into session and we talked about what we were going to do to get them to change their mind. So, we decided then to go to the president. A delegation of us, I think three or four of us went up to his office to see him. When we got there they told us that he was out of town and that he would be back tomorrow or the next day around 1:00. We said, " ; We would like to have an appointment with him." ; So, we sat up the appointment. We then went back to the rec center, the student union. That next meeting we had another meeting of the organization and this time there was probably 40 to 50 people there, because we had gotten the word out that we were going to talk to Malcolm Luss, who was the president of the school and we were going to demand these three items. So people were excited, you know, because this was the first time this had happened at the University of Minnesota. Somebody said, " ; What happens if they say no?" ; We couldn' ; t decide on what we were going to do. We kept talking and talking and about a quarter to 1:00 we said, " ; We have to go." ; So, we decided to leave. We went on to [inaudible] Hall, the administration building. There were probably 30 or 40 of us. We went into, I guess the board room. That' ; s where we were going to meet. The president eventually came out and he sat and talked with us. We told him what we were demanding. And he said, " ; I really understand what you' ; re saying, but I don' ; t have the authority, but I can' ; t do those things." ; So, we said, " ; We pay our fees and we abide by that and the other and we thought it was necessary that we have an African American Studies Department. That it is only right to try to get more Black students here through a Martin Luther King Scholarship Fund. We can assist you in doing that. We also thought it was necessary that the University would have some Black program on campus and this Black student conference would bring some Black programming." ; They said, " ; No, we couldn' ; t do that either." ; So, there were myself and sister Rose we got up and we walked downstairs. While we were walking we were just talking about what we were going to do. So, rather than leaving the building we then decided to go into the Bursar' ; s Office. Everybody followed us into the Bursar' ; s Office. Now you can imagine this is the University of Minnesota. You' ; ve never seen this many Black folks together. You' ; ve got 40 Black folk walking into the Bursar' ; s Office and people are just amazed and startled. Once we got in there we decided that we were not going to leave until some of those demands were met. So we remained in the administration building. We allowed people to leave, but we didn' ; t allow people to enter. They basically corded off the doors and did a sit-in. We were there overnight and overnight we then started negotiating with the administration. The administration sometime around 12:00, 1:00, or 2:00 in the morning they agreed on all three points. That next morning, it was day when we left. There were White students outside and they were really upset because they were saying you can' ; t shut down our University. Our refrain to them was we' ; ve been shut out of society for 300 years and they can' ; t be shut out one day without saying they are going to charge the building and do some damage or bodily harm to us, you know. That never came before that morning. They surround, the White students surround the administration building and the buildings at Minnesota were connected by tunnels. So, rather then us going out through the crowd, we went out through the tunnel to the other side of the mob and all the way down to the end of the mob and back across to another building and then out to the outside. When we got down there we looked back and there was a huge crowd of White students. We just turned around and we waved at them. (Laughing) I think if we would have come out, directly out of that building there probably would have been some disturbances. So the administration suggested that we take that route and we did. We got that done. We got the department, the African American Studies Department. We were on the community that developed it. We basically, we didn' ; t have a vote or anything, but we were very forceful in how we wanted the department to look because they were saying that there were not people qualified to teach. So, we brought Mahmoud and we recruited several other people from out of town. Three of us were arrested as a result of the take over. The administration said they were going to deal with us but the city government...The mayor' ; s name was Stenven. Mayor Stenven decided, I don' ; t guess it was Stenven but anyway, the grand jury indicted us. That then made for a unified force on campus because the campus, at that time the Vietnam War was going on, so White students were actively involved in that. So, they supported us and we had a demonstration, the day that we were arrested there was a demonstration about 10,000 students marched from the University to the downtown courthouse. We had a huge, massive inside and outside the court house. The White students, the student government association, the students for a democratic society and a number of other organizations were very supportive and that sort of galvanized the activist on campus anyway. So, we were tried and we were found not guilty on destruction of property and whatever. I think we got a misdemeanor. It was an experience that really galvanized that campus for Black and White students against the administration and in favor of change. As a result of that, we got Martin Luther King Scholarship Program that created slots for Black students. We developed the African American Studies Department. They actually paid for the student conference that we had. During that conference we had Jim Turner, who' ; s now a professor at Cornell University. At that time he was a graduate student at Northwestern University. He' ; s in local science, I believe, or maybe Urban Studies. He was one of the speakers that we invited up. We had Muhammad Ali. We had a dance troop from Harlem, we had several brothers from Washington D.C. start an organization called Pride and we had students all over the country as far as California that came to that student conference. So, we were very proud of being able to pull that together and to organize it to the extent to show the administration the necessity for developing those kinds of programs. As a result of that, the department actually recruited people from all over the country and it became one of the premiere programs. As a result of that, myself and sister Rose became two of the first graduates with a degree in African American Studies in the country. WATSON: You were very much a part of the Black power movements that were going on in ' ; 65 directly. You were doing some of the same things that were going on at other campuses. HUNTLEY: Right. We had relationships with other campuses. The Black power movement...in fact, I remember meeting Stokley Carmichael for the first time on campus. Right after he, in ' ; 66 on the march of the Mississippi, where he talked about what Black people need, Black power. I guess it was probably ' ; 68 when he came to campus and gave a speech. Sister Rose knew him personally because she was in " ; SNICK" ; in Mississippi. She was from Greenville, Mississippi. So, they knew each other personally and she got Stokley up there to speak. There were a number of individuals that we got to come to speak. Yeah, it was right in the...the Black Panther Party, of course, was very active. There' ; s an active Panther Party in Minneapolis. We knew all those guys and they were very closely associated with us. So, when we went to the administration building they were there to help us out. Supposedly, they were there to protect us. So there was a real close knit Black community in Minneapolis at the time. Since I was working in the community, I didn' ; t live on campus. I lived in South Minneapolis. Sister Rose worked at a community center in North Minneapolis. That' ; s where Black folk lived in North and South Minneapolis. So when we went to the administration building, people from the community came to our rescue. So, it was really rather uniquely developed in that we had those, that we were not isolated from the community, that we were actually apart of the community. WATSON: Ok, I want to back up a little. One of the demands that the group made was for a scholarship fund in Martin Luther King' ; s name. I just want to ask you, do you remember where you were and what you were doing when Martin Luther King was assassinated? HUNTLEY: Yes, we were at the community center. I remember that the kids were really excited. They wanted to get out in the street and some did. It wasn' ; t like Chicago or anyplace but there were some throwing at cars and that kind of thing. I remember initially we took all of the kids downstairs in the church and we sat and talked about it, what it meant. Once we left then sort of all havoc broke out. There were some disturbances and actually there were some Whites that came through the community at that time driving suspiciously, you know. I don' ; t know whether they were attempting to cause some problems or what. But I remember our following one of the cars and it had two or three White boys, or men, or whatever to see that they were just going to go on through the community, rather than stop and create some problems. It was a rather difficult time. As a result of that we...at Dr. King' ; s funeral we were able to take, I don' ; t know how many kids we took, but we took a lot of kids to Atlanta to the funeral. General Mills, Three M and several other big companies donated their planes. We were able to take some kids to Atlanta to the funeral. WATSON: So you were able to attend Dr. King' ; s funeral? HUNTLEY: Yes. WATSON: Ok, now you graduated from the University of Minnesota. You have one of the first degrees in African American Studies. Where did you go from there? HUNTLEY: Well, actually we had volunteered for Peace Corps. We were going to Ghana. We were due to leave for two weeks to come to Atlanta for orientation, but prior to that, we had to take physical exams. When we took the physical exams, we found out that Barbara was expecting our first child. So, that changed our whole lives. We didn' ; t make the trip to Ghana. Then, I had a fellowship offer to go to Syracuse University. We took that. We went to Syracuse where I did my masters. I was in school for a year and then the program had another year where we would actually teach. So, I went to school the first year and the second year I taught at the State University of New York at Oswego. It was upstate New York, about 40 miles, I guess, northwest of Syracuse. WATSON: After that did you go on to get your doctorate? HUNTLEY: No, from there I took a job at the University of Maryland, Eastern Shore. I was there for a year. From there I then received another fellowship to do the doctorate at the University of Pittsburgh. At the University of Pittsburgh I met David Montgomery, who was the chairman of the History Department at that time. He was a labor historian. Now he is the number one labor historian in the world. David and I became very close friends. So, I then started to do African American Labor History. My topic was the International Union of Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers as it was organized here in Birmingham in the 1930s. It was an interracial experiment I always say. An interracial labor union. WATSON: Ok then, you said you went to the University of Pittsburgh for your doctorate? HUNTLEY: Right. WATSON: Ok. Once you were in Pittsburgh what did you do your doctoral dissertation on, what was the subject? HUNTLEY: The International Union of Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers. I did that because there was really very little that was written about Mine Mill, particularly in Birmingham. I found several pages in a book that talked about Mine Mill in Birmingham. My grandfather had been a member of the Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers Union and I remember very vaguely while I was growing up something about labor. I remember something about the barber shop and old men coming in, oh they were probably 30 at the time. They would come in and talk about what was happening at the mine. I didn' ; t, of course, pay any attention then. As I started the study it was like I remember some of those men at the barber shop. So that began my first effort to really digging into the history of Black labor. I did that as an oral history project. So, my dissertation was based primarily on oral histories. WATSON: This was one of your first experiments on oral histories. A time when it probably wasn' ; t very popular to do. HUNTLEY: That' ; s right. It was not very popular to do oral history at the time. Labor history and Black history both were not looked upon very favorably even in the academic community. Dave Montgomery, who was a popular historian and we just became real good friends, he then became my mentor in terms of labor, because he knew his labor history. He sort of corrected what didn' ; t wreck my dissertation. WATSON: Ok. Now you have your Ph.D. what do you do from there? HUNTLEY: I, in June, well actually, I had come home the year before, a year and a half before I finished up. I went over to the University, UAB, to the history department to see if I can find sources. I couldn' ; t find any sources, but I was approached by the chair of the department. She asked me if I ever considered coming back home after I finished up. Of course I had, but I played hard to get. So she said, " ; why don' ; t you call me when you get close to finishing. We would like to talk to you." ; So, I decided to, I did. They sent for, they wanted me to come down for an interview. I was talking to Barbara, she was just the opposite. I always said I was going to come back to Birmingham once I finished up and she said she would never live in Alabama again. So, as we discussed coming back she said she didn' ; t want to come back to Birmingham, that she wasn' ; t coming back. So, I called UAB and told them that we decided that we were not going to come. They asked why. I told them. They said, " ; why don' ; t we send for your whole family, your wife and your children?" ; So, they did. They wined and dined us for three days. I promised Barbara we would just be here for a couple of years. If you don' ; t like it we can leave. When we got here, we were at a party at some sort and somebody said, " ; Oh, you' ; re back home. How long are you going to be here?" ; I said, " ; We' ; re here to stay." ; She never let me live that down. We' ; ve been here now for a long time, since ' ; 76, that' ; s 22 years. WATSON: I know you' ; ve been involved in a lot of different things since you returned to Birmingham. So, let' ; s just start with things you' ; ve done at UAB. First of all, I would like to know about the courses that you taught when you came back to teach at UAB. HUNTLEY: Initially, I started teaching African American History, American History and Urban Studies. What I was trying to do, I was developing a sequence in African American History, a three course sequence. It went very well. I taught an American History course one term and then, next term I would have to teach a graduate level Urban Studies. Eventually, then, I would start teaching the Urban Studies because I had a joint appointment between History and Urban Studies. So, I teach...a full load is two courses per term. I had not finished the doctorate when I arrived here. I still had to finish the dissertation. My first term here I completed the dissertation and I would go back to defend it in December. That' ; s when I would be awarded the degree the following term. So, my with appointment being both History and Urban Studies I taught in both departments. By the same token I had taught, I had talked with them, prior to coming, about establishing an African American Studies program. In ' ; 78 I started writing a proposal for that program. It was finally, I guess in ' ; 79 or so it was instituted. It was an interdisciplinary program and I established a three quarter sequence in African American History. Other people from various disciplines would offer courses periodically. For awhile it worked ok but what happened was that after a time my courses were the only courses that were not being offered on a regular basis. So students then would have difficulty in completing the 18 hours. So, I then, I had to start giving independent studies to have people to be able to complete the minor. We did that and I' ; m not sure how many students actually minored in that, but there were quite a number. I knew that, that simply couldn' ; t last. So we started talking about a necessity for a department of African American Studies. This is probably after ten years or so. The administration would never permit the resources to do that. So then, they would always say they just didn' ; t have the money because that' ; s a commitment to me. So, myself and a couple of other Black faculty members went to the State Senator and asked him if he would allocate money to develop a department. We talked and he researched it and he came back and said he would put in a half million dollars a year for our Black studies department. The administration was livid. They said that they didn' ; t want him to do that because that would take away from other programs and they would not go along with it. The Senator was Fred Horn. He said that he would see to it that the money would in fact be there. They fought it. Eventually what it really came down to was Fred would lose the election and that would be the end of that money. We couldn' ; t get the other legislators to be as forceful as Fred was. Fred was chair of the financing within the state. He held the purse strings and he could have done it, but the administration was totally opposed to it. What they decided to do was, what they call, enhance the program. So they hired someone else and brought that person in and now they are supposedly enhancing that program with a list of courses about the same number that I had and they are having the same problems that I was having, is that the courses are not offered on a regular basis. Our argument was that if you had a department then you have people, you bring people in specifically to teach African American Studies. What is happening is that they look upon African American Studies in the same way that Whites looked upon Blacks, that' ; s being negatively, because I doubt very seriously that if a person simply had an interest in history or a history buff would be allowed to come to the history department to teach a history course. That would not be allowed in any other department but for African American Studies. The only thing a person would have is an interest in the disciplines, not necessarily in the training. See, I' ; m the only one on campus that had the degree in African American Studies. What they would do is send out a letter that would ask people would you like to teach a course in African American Studies. That is what the administration allowed. So, I then sort of disassociated myself from that process because it obviously was not meeting the standards that were being set by agencies that were looking at African American Studies. Of course, it didn' ; t meet my standards. WATSON: Alright now you were now challenging the status quo and the UAB adminstration. Did you feel any personal repercussions as a result of your actions? Or was there any problems between yourself, or the administration, or the faculty over that? HUNTLEY: Well there' ; s been a court case, trying to think of the name of it, Higher Education Court Case in the state of Alabama that was looking at the inequities in the development of education in Black institutions and White institutions. I actually testified against White institutions because, you know, for obvious reasons. The Universtiy of Alabama in Tuscaloosa made a statement that they never had a policy of segregation. (Laughing) It' ; s very obvious that the funding has been inequitable. So, I was brought into the case and made statements, that is public information right now, about how education had saved Alabama and what had happened, also about Black studies. The judge...what had happened, initially, Judge U. W. Clemmons was a city judge on the case. They removed him from the case, because he said he had been a civil rights lawyer and he was Black. What they had put on the case instead was an old White man from Rome, Georgia, Judge Murphy and he' ; s probably in his late 60s, probably 70 years old. What kind of.... HUNTLEY: Judge Murphy was anti-black for anything but how could you suggest that Judge Clemmons was going to be bias and that Judge Murphy would not be bias from another perspective. So, I then testified, as a result of making that testimony, there were actually people in my department who stopped speaking to me. There was a number of other things that would take place. I got the impression that the department was attempting to isolate me. I always told them that you can not isolate me because I' ; m at home. My life was not totally focused on what you' ; re doing here. I have a life outside the university. Of course, they attempted to change my title to adjunct professor ; that alone with other things, the letter writing campaigns. I had to write the dean. I had an encounter with all the vice-presidents. The vice- presidents once came to one of the Black history programs. The program was titled something like, " ; What was it like being Black on a White college campus." ; He invited himself to participate. He came over with all kinds of statistics and how much progress UAB was making and that we were, had increased by x number. I just asked him, " ; well [inaudible] if you' ; re giving those statistics I would like to know some names. I' ; ve been here for 15 years. Tell me who are these people you are talking about that you' ; ve added to the faculty, because I don' ; t know any of them." ; Afterwards, he came to me and he said that was intellectually dishonest. I said, " ; you' ; re right. Everything you presented was intellectually dishonest." ; He got upset and I got upset and we almost went to blows. We didn' ; t but that was part of the encounters I was having. I basically would tell whoever raised some issues, if they were not telling the truth I would raise questions about it and that' ; s not something you do as a Black man in this country. You accept it and you go with it tail tucked. I refused to do that. As a result, a number of things happened. WATSON: I want to talk a little bit about the things that you' ; ve done in the city. Before that, I just remembered something. I know you requested your FBI file through the Freedom of Information Act. I was wondering if you could tell us if you found...I know you' ; ve done a lot so, I was wondering if there were any interesting things in there that you might want to share with us about... HUNTLEY: Well actually they did a very good job in following me everywhere. (Laughing) I remember once when I was at home early, early morning about 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning. This voice from someplace, I was dreaming, I guess, it said, " ; get up and look out your window." ; I did. I got up and looked out my window and there was a guy underneath my car. It was in the winter and there was snow on the ground and he was underneath my car. I recognized him. He was one of the guys that was in our organization. So the next morning I went out, I didn' ; t go out that night. I thought it was going to blow up or something. So I went out and they had a little device. It happened to be a homing device, I guess, just to let them know where I am or whatever. He was obviously working undercover within the organization. When we were in the administration building we found out during the trial that he was on the phone the whole time giving whatever we did, he was telling someone. I don' ; t know who he was talking to. All that was in the file. It didn' ; t name the person but I happened to put two and two together and could determine who it was. It was amazing because although I was active, there were a lot of people that were a lot more active than I. I had nearly 300 pages in my FBI File. So they were...one of the things that they consistently did was they just tried to follow whatever you did. When I left Minneapolis and went to Syracuse they followed me there. I wrote a letter to the insurance company because the insurance company had dropped my insurance. I don' ; t know why, I may have gotten a ticket or whatever but I wrote them a very heated letter about how the Black community would not look very favorable upon this. They sent a guy from Minneapolis to Syracuse to talk with me about that. That is in my files. You name it and if I did it, it' ; s in my file. WATSON: Ok, now let' ; s go ahead and talk a little bit about the things that went on, not at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, but within the city itself. I wanted to start with the Board of Education of the city. I know that because the city is predominantly Black, the school system certainly is predominantly Black that you favor an Afrocentric education and that you' ; ve pushed for that. I wanted to know sort of the specifics of that and what your position is and what you' ; ve done to try to get that. HUNTLEY: Ok, Birmingham proper is about 65% Black. The school system is 93% Black. But we' ; ve been under core for a long time now to have the faculty, it' ; s 50/50. The faculty usually is about 50/50 but the student population is 93% Black, which meant really that' ; s...there' ; s a reason for that because you have to look at how the neighborhoods are situated. In the ' ; 60s when Blacks started to move, actually when UAB bought all that property on the Southside that was a neighborhood, that was a community. Sixth Avenue Baptist Church was right where...it was on 6th Avenue and 16th Street South. On the same corner on the north side, 6th Avenue and 16th Street North, was Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. They were sister churches you know but UAB came in and purchased all that land. Sixteenth Street and the whole community was displaced. So then, African American people started moving into West End and other neighborhoods that happened to have been White. As soon as they moved in Whites moved out. So, of course, that created then a situation just as in many other urban areas when Black folks move into the area, White folks start moving out to the suburbs. I remember when I moved back to Birmingham in ' ; 76. I moved into the West End area and right next to me was an older White man. A week or so after I moved in a for sale sign up. We were out one day and I talked to him and asked him, " ; Why are you moving?" ; He said, " ; Oh, the community is just deteriorating." ; Here I am a Ph.D. my life is in line, but the neighborhood is deteriorating because Black folk moved in next door to you. So, that then will result in the city becoming a predominately Black city. The school system becoming overwhelming Black. Still in Birmingham and some other places you still had to fight to get courses on Black history, Black culture or whatever in the school systems. You can still talk to kids today and they still don' ; t have a lot of it, although Black people are in control of the system now. So there are some...if we are in control of the school system then why not look at an African centered curriculum just as been done in other places. We are clamoring mostly from Black folks the authority. We are apologetic to Whites because we were raised in this kind of issue. Another issue that we raise is that White people move out of the city and Black people will be in control, but we' ; re still retaining 40% of the school board for Whites. I said, That' ; s ridiculous, you know. Why should White people have 40% of the school board when they are only 7% of the student population. Those parents and those people who live in the city lives here. They need to have that control of the city. Even some Black people disagree with that because they want to be multi-cultural. I don' ; t have any difficulty with that, but I' ; m looking at the reality of it. The reality of it is, it' ; s a Black system and that we need to be able to control our own destinies. It appeared that we were doing the very same thing that we had done even during the segregation era. Like when Dr. King first came to Birmingham, there were Black folks that said that he was an outside agitator and that he shouldn' ; t come in because all he' ; s gonna do is hurt the progress that we had made in race relations, even though we hadn' ; t made any. These were people that were in prominent positions, Blacks in prominent positions. I see the same thing happening. So, I was actually appointed, I don' ; t know why they appointed me to this advisory committee to the board to advise them on the development of a strategic plan. One of my issues was that of African centered education. There were student representation on the board, I mean on the committee, who happened to have agreed with me. There were others on the committee that agreed. They would only agree in private. In fact, we had a meeting at my house and there were probably six or seven of us there. All of us agreed that this was our strategy and we would see that this happened. We got back to the big meeting with 30 something people. There were two that would speak. The others just sat there, didn' ; t say anything. The point is what we were attempting to do is to make the system reflect the history culture of the people that is was serving. That became very difficult to do. We still have not achieved that, we' ; re still working on it. WATSON: I know you also got involved with the city government of Birmingham. You ran for city council, but before we get into that I would like to know a little bit about some of the things that you did, to the efforts that you made in relation to the government of Birmingham before that time. HUNTLEY: Well, I' ; ve been involved with the community for some time. We' ; ve been active in our neighborhood with just everyday amenities, talking about those kinds of things. I' ; ve been actively involved, like the Birmingham Historical Society, a trustee for the society. I was also a member of the Birmingham Historical Commission. What we did, we looked at historical sites and tried to get places renovated rather than torn down. One of the things that really...one of the most devastating things that was happening with the historical sites is that the terminal station, which was a very historic site was demolished. We only have pictures of that now. So, the commission was developed to see that that would not happen any longer. Originally, as I' ; ve been involved with the Million Man March, I' ; ve been chair of the local organizing committee of the Million Man March. Of course, there was a lot of controversy in that because Minister Louis Farrakahn called the Million Man March in ' ; 96 and just as we reacted to Malcolm X in the ' ; 60s people still reacted to Minister Farrakahn the same way. They tried to paint him one way. They tried to paint him as anti-Semitic and anti-White without really listening to what he was saying. I think that we have to really start making determinations for ourselves rather than allowing people outside of our community to make decisions for us. We have to make decisions about who we are supportive of. I can remember in the ' ; 60s when Malcolm was talking, there would be people who were prominent who would agree with him in private, but in public they were afraid. We have the same kind of situation today. As a member of the local organizing of the Million Man March we' ; ve developed a present support group. We' ; ve developed a mechanism by which Black kids could be adopted because we found that Black kids are usually the last ones to be adopted. Many didn' ; t have homes. We have, the local organizing committees also, one of the initiatives have been the development of an African centered education in the public school system. So, there have been a number of issues that we have attempted to focus on and we' ; re still doing those things. WATSON: When you eventually ran to try to become a member of the city council, how exactly did you get involved in that? How did that happen? What were some of your reactions to the whole process? HUNTLEY: People had approached me a year and a half before the election and asked me if I would run for city council. I told them I really didn' ; t have interest in running for city council. So, they said don' ; t make a decision now but sometime before the election, you know, a year or so before the election you should let us know if you will or not. It came down the year before and I told them that I still hadn' ; t changed my mind, but I would give them a definite answer by the first of the year. That gave me eight months, no, ten months before the election. So the first of the year I still didn' ; t want to run. So, I told them, " ; I really appreciate you asking but I was really not interested in a political career." ; So, they wouldn' ; t take no for an answer. So in June they asked me again. I said no and I went away on vacation in July. When I came back, I had been drafted to run. I sat down with the people who drafted me. It was a coalition of organizations. I really couldn' ; t dispute what they were saying. So, I then said, " ; ok if you can gather the troops I will sit with it." ; So, that' ; s really the way it happened. Then, it was really late. It was five weeks before the election. We gathered the troops and I had really good people working with me. I was [inaudible] in the political arena. I didn' ; t know anything about it. William Muhammad and Don Blankenship sort of lead my, the campaign. They had experience. We just got to work and what happened they knew basically how a campaign should be run. They started the process and I was very comfortable in going out talking to people. So, we walked the neighborhoods every evening. Sometimes I would just walk it by myself just talking with people. I had approached some people and they said, " ; Horace you' ; re too late. If you would have come earlier I would have supported you. I have committed to someone else." ; I understood that because I did wait too late. Finally, what happened of course is that the day of the election the front runner, she was enormous, she had about 49% or something like that and I came in second. So, there was a run off between us. I think we had another three weeks to run and in those three weeks I gained momentum and she added 300 votes to her numbers and I added close to 1100 votes to mine. I still fell short, ran out of time. I didn' ; t have money. In fact, I borrowed $5,000.00 and then we solicited funds. There were people that came and wanted to donate to the campaign that I didn' ; t want any donations from, so we refused those. There were people who came and wanted to do things for us, but they had ulterior motives. Everybody has an ulterior motive, but there are some, you know, you see the writing on the wall and I didn' ; t want to go that route. Don and William were very protective of me, because they wouldn' ; t allow certain people to get to me. A lot of folks would go through them to try to get to me. They wouldn' ; t allow that to happen. What I learned out of the whole process is that people will do whatever it takes to control the Black community. There are some complicity by Black folk because at the end, after the election I was in fact...well, the main focus of my platform was that I thought that we should be developing Black businesses in the city. The Black businesses should have the opportunity to compete with anybody, with all the contracts that were being developed. Since the city is a predominately Black city, 65% and people still talking about 10% set asides, I thought that was ridiculous. I think that we should have at least 50% of all contracts. Of course, people disagreed with that in saying that Black businesses just can' ; t do big jobs. I would ask the question, " ; How do White businesses get the chance to do the big jobs then?" ; The reason is because they had an unfair advantage during the segregation era and they took advantage of that. So, there must be some creative ways in which you can help develop the Black community to level that playing field and without that we' ; re all being hypocritical. After the election was over the mayor wrote an article in the paper saying that I was a member of the sale of Black republicans in town (Laughing) and that we met on a regular basis. I wrote a response to that and, in fact, I called him at his home and asked him about it. He said, " ; Well, Horace that' ; s what somebody told me." ; I said, " ; Well, you should' ; ve had the courtesy to ask me about it before you put it in the paper." ; He said, " ; I' ; m sorry. I will..." ; He said he was going to make a statement about what I had said to him in his next column. He did. He said exactly what I had said to him. Then, I wrote a response because he was saying that my campaign was financed by White republicans and I get all kinds of technical assistance from them. They tried to give me some assistance but I wouldn' ; t accept it. They, of course, didn' ; t give me any money. I was appalled and I told the mayor that I was appalled because what you are saying is that all of these Black people that have worked so hard in that campaign, that you are not giving them the credit. You' ; re giving the credit to somebody that' ; s exterior to us. I want to know how in the world that you can suggest that I' ; m a republican. I' ; m not a republican, nor am I a democrat. However, you suggest that I' ; m a republican and I' ; m talking about affirmative action, not this [inaudible] but really looking at the betterment of the community from a board perspective. In fact, I pointed out my opponent received money from...about $30,000 dollars from people who were in fact known republicans. These are the people that have been solicited by the coalition that the mayor is president of or has been president of. So, I raised the question that it seems to be rather peculiar that you accuse me, that I' ; m a republican and receive republican money when everybody knows that the money that Pat received was in fact republican money from the Drummond Coal Company and other areas here. As it stood it was obvious that the coalition may have decided that they needed people who would certainly listen to them without question. Of course, I had not been one that had a very good track record of certainly listening and obeying without question. WATSON: Now we come to the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. You' ; ve been involved, I know, with the Institute since the planning stages. I wanted to know a little bit about how the whole thing got started. What was your involvement, just a little bit about the early stages.HUNTLEY: 19, I believe it was ' ; 81, Mayor Arrington had made a determination that we needed some type of memorial to the Civil Rights Movement. He appointed myself and former mayor, David Vann as co-chairs of the Civil Rights Museum task force, as it was called at that time. We then started to develop, trying to develop a concept about what all of this would mean and how it would be formulated. We spent a couple of years doing that and finally we ended that portion, that task force, because we thought we had come to a point where we had basically sort of hashed out what the Institute, or the Museum at the time this was called, would...the concept of it. We couldn' ; t find money for it. Eventually, the city sold a building for, I say, a million dollars. The mayor decided we could use that funding, so we constituted the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute task force at that time. I was apart of that. I was not chair anymore, but I was apart of that task force. We then took what we developed earlier and refined it. We worked from, I believe it was ' ; 86 to the opening in ' ; 92. I don' ; t remember exactly how many people were on that task force, but I think most of those that were on that would become part of the first Board of Directors. I would be one of those on the first Board of Directors. I served as, from a historical perspective, I was looking at the material to make sure they were historically accurate. What we did, we actually hired three film makers and each of those film makers would take a gallery, I think one or two of them had two galleries upstairs. They would develop the concept and all of the materials for that. They would then bring it back to the task force. We would review it and make recommendations, corrections, or whatever. They would take it back and then come back again. Over a period of that four or five years this is what we would have. Those initial stages we simply had the...we would meet periodically. We would give charges to the various film makers and they would go out and do their work and send material back. We would read it and then they would bring in the final product. We would evaluate it and in most cases we would make some changes. That' ; s basically the way the Institute then would primarily be developed, as far as concept was concerned. WATSON: Now you' ; ll later become the director of the Oral History Project of the Institute, for which we are doing this interview today. I wanted to know a little bit about how you got involved with the Oral History Project, how it was first conceived and what' ; s the purpose of the Oral History Project? HUNTLEY: Well, the purpose, of course, is to be certain the stories of people who were actively involved in the movement would be told. We would develop a mechanism by which that could happen. We talked about that really very early in the conceptualization of the Institute itself. Since I had, had experience doing oral histories and doing scholarly work in the oral history profession, I was asked if I would be willing to direct the Oral History Project here for the Institute. At that point I did resign from the Board of Directors to come on. I requested time from the University. So, I' ; m actually on half-time leave from the University doing the Oral History Project, while still teaching at UAB. So, I offer a course per term and I do this. Now in developing with the process we looked at a number of other Oral History Projects. I guess the one that had probably the most influence upon the way that we developed this one was University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. They were doing basically the same thing from a national perspective. They interviewed people in various cities for, I guess, three or four summers. We have the material that they gathered here in Birmingham, well in Alabama. We have that here in our archives. The Oral History Project is necessary for the purpose of being able to gather the various stories, the various histories, of people that were actively involved and not just looking at the leaders of them, although we' ; ve interviewed leaders as well, but we wanted to look at grass roots individuals. People that were faceless and nameless as we view the demonstrations. Today we' ; ve interviewed nearly 200 people, which consist of men and women, Black and White and many that were children during the time. We' ; ve talked about expanding the concept. Primarily, we looked at the Birmingham Movement. We probably want to look at that from a state, as well as regional perspective as well. Eventually we will. WATSON: You' ; re one of the earliest Ph.D.' ; s in African American Studies, who got one of the first degrees. You helped to create one of the earliest programs. I just wanted to know what' ; s your view of the future, not only of programs and departments for African American and African Studies but also for the future of Afrocentric education in younger Black children? HUNTLEY: Well, I think it' ; s...really we' ; re just at a point now in African centered education where we were probably in the early ' ; 60s, with just talking about having a Black history program. We' ; re in those emphasis stages. I think the future is very bright, although there are a lot of distractions when you start talking about African centered education, because many people look at that in the same way that they looked at anyone that was positively Black in the ' ; 60s. If you were positive about Blackness that meant that you were negative about Whiteness, which really was not the case. That' ; s the way many people viewed that. So, people are viewing African centered education as being anti-anybody else. That' ; s not the case at all. What we' ; re simply saying is that there' ; s a necessity for our children, as well as others to be able to study the history and culture from a perspective that is different than the perspective that all of us have studied it from up to this day. African centered education is going to prove to them that it creates an atmosphere where children, not only appreciate themselves, but other folk will appreciate them as well. So I think it' ; s very, very necessary that we look at it very critically, but we also look at it through the perspective that it' ; s going to enhance. I think that with all of the difficulties that we are having in early [African] Americans now...one of the reasons that we are having those difficulties is because we don' ; t know who we are. We think we are less than anyone else. The reason we think that is because of the lack of courage in us as adults to say to whoever is, is necessary to say it to that we don' ; t care how you feel about this, this is what my child is going to be prepared in and will be prepared with. If we fail to do that other people will not do that for us. The only people that will be able to do that is going to be you and I. Many times we find that there are many people that look just like us that are in fact in opposition to that kind of change. That' ; s not unusual, but what we have to do is to be patient with them and go on and over time they will come, but you can not stop. You have to continue to be persistent in your demands and persistent in making certain that people understand your arguments and discussions. Simply start some programs in that area. Without that we will, 20 years from now, 30 years from now we will be fighting the same struggle again. WATSON: In that same vein I want to discuss the African American and African History Departments and Programs on college campuses throughout the country. There' ; s been a lot of discussion even some of the former Civil Rights Leaders have made statements to the effect that Black students on college campuses today can' ; t do anything with a degree in African American Studies or African Studies. I want to know how you feel about the future of these programs and these departments now that so many graduates are being given this message that they shouldn' ; t be involved in that and that they should go with something more traditional. HUNTLEY: Well, I was always asked the question, which really is a rhetorical question, " ; what are you going to do with a degree in history? What does one do with a degree in sociology, any of the social behaviors or sciences?" ; What you do is you go to graduate school. You go to law school. You get a job in a...with the government or whatever. Whatever is being done in social behavior sciences now that' ; s what African American Studies majors will do with a degree. Some of the " ; leaders" ; that made those kinds of statements are very, rather short sighted and I think they are being apologetic to White society by saying...I put them in the same category that those that came to Birmingham and said, well, when Dr. King came to Birmingham those people that said that he was an outside agitator and that they didn' ; t need him here because things were not as bad as they thought had been reported. Those individuals will have to understand that we' ; re not necessarily talking about anti- anything. We are very much pro-Black. Some people will say that you can' ; t be pro- Black without being anti-White. I think that' ; s a misconception. That is not to demean anyone else' ; s culture, but it is to enhance our own. If one is to understand that this is to be a multi-racial, multi-ethnic society then everyone, not just my children, but everyone is going to have to know something about me. If you don' ; t, you don' ; t have respect for me. So, I think we have to gather and understand that part of the concept. If we can understand that and then start a discussion about it then we [inaudible]. WATSON: Well, Dr. Huntley, we' ; ve covered a lot today. I wanted to know if there is anything that we haven' ; t asked specific questions about that you would just like to add for the record? HUNTLEY: Well, I think we' ; ve probably covered the gambit, but I' ; m sure I' ; ll think of some things later on, but right now I think we' ; ve covered about as much as we need to cover. WATSON: Ok. Well, I would like to thank you, Dr. Huntley, for taking time out of your schedule to talk with us today. HUNTLEY: Thank you, sir and ma' ; am. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
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Dr. Horace Huntley discusses advocating for the creation of African American Studies programs at various institutions, including UAB. His civil rights rights involvement led to an extensive file and surveillance by the FBI.
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
University of Alabama in Birmingham. Center for Urban Studies
Federal Bureau of Investigation surveillance files
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1998-05-26
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Horace Huntley
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Flora Washington Smith
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5.4 September 27, 1995 Flora Washington Smith 19950927S 0:48:53 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Greater Temple Missionary Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Flora Washington Smith Horace Huntley Video 1:|12(4)|30(11)|49(3)|60(1)|69(6)|79(4)|98(6)|110(2)|132(2)|141(4)|161(9)|170(10)|183(5)|198(13)|210(11)|220(7)|232(5)|248(4)|252(8)|272(6)|281(16)|303(5)|303(7)|335(17)|344(9)|356(13)|371(9)|410(4)|424(7)|437(6)|448(2)|468(11)|480(9)|497(7)|506(10)|522(7)|540(10)|551(5)|551(6)|560(12)|568(8)|575(3)|579(13)|597(5)|607(8)|612(4)|623(2)|636(13) 0 https://youtu.be/6lc2OBd1Hzo YouTube video English 24 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Flora Smith for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project Flora Smith is introduced Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 53 Family Background What part of the state are you from? Where were you born? Smith talks about how she was born in Hale County, Alabama and that her parents passed away when she was nine years old. Afterwards, she lived in Tuscaloosa County with foster parents and had foster brothers along with a close sister. Bessemer (Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Hale County (Ala.) ; Overton (Ala.) ; Tuscaloosa County (Ala.) African American families ; Foster family 751 Birmingham Community & ; Segregation Tell me, what part of Birmingham did you live in? Smith describes how the Birmingham church community gave her a social outlet when segregation in Birmingham affected her experiences with public transportation, dining, and entertainment venues. African American churches ; Segregation in transportation--United States African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.) 1162 Getting Involved with the Movement At what point did you get involved with the Civil Rights Movement? Smith describes attending some of the first meetings organized by the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. Birmingham Baptist College (Birmingham, Ala.) ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Sardis Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights 1288 Call to Action from Mass Meetings In your activity with the Movement, you went to many mass meetings. Smith describes listening to the mass meetings conducted by Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth, and how his preaching moved her to participate in a march to 16th Street Baptist Church. 16th Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 Mass meetings 1646 Arrest and Spending a Week in Jail And so you were arrested? Smith talks about her experience of being arrested and held in the city jail. She and the others who were arrested at the time were there for a week. King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Arrest--United States ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 2033 Social Consequences from Involvement in the Movement After you were released from jail, did you go back to the meetings? Smith recounts that after her arrest, she received criticism from people in her church community, but she continued to support the Movement by participating in the march from Selma to Montgomery in 1965. Mass meetings Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.) 2280 Continuing Education And then you decided to complete your education. Smith describes how she spent time in Haiti as a missionary before returning home to begin nurse training at Bessemer State Technical School. However, she was turned down due to her age. Afterwards, she attended Miles College and graduated with a a degree in English when she was 77 years old. Bessemer State Technical College ; Haiti ; Miles College ; Missionary life stories ; Smith, Nelson, 1930-2006 Adult learners, education, and training 2684 Being a Missionary at Miles College I was a missionary here. Smith talks about how she felt that she was a missionary at Miles College and a positive role model for all the students who attended classes and called her " ; Grandma." ; African American college students ; Gibson, James A. ; Greater Temple Missionary Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Miles College 2888 Conclusion of the Interview Thank you, Mrs. Smith for spending time with us today. Conclusion of the Interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Oral History Flora Washington Smith discusses getting involved with ACMHR from the earliest meetings. She participated in the Selma to Montgomery March, even after spending a week in jail for demonstrating in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Flora Smith for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is September 27, 1995. Thank you, Mrs. Smith for coming out to be with us today to give us information about your history and the history of Birmingham. I appreciate you taking time out to do that for us today. I want to start by asking you some general questions. What part of the state are you from? Where were you born? SMITH: Hale County. HUNTLEY: Hale County, Alabama.You lived in Hale County and where did your parents move to from Hale County, to Tuscaloosa County, was it? SMITH: My father was away.He was sick and away from home at the time that my mother moved to Tuscaloosa County, about 1917. HUNTLEY: Was your father a farmer? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did your mother work outside of the home? SMITH: My mother did farm work before leaving Hale County, and domestic work in Yolanda. HUNTLEY: When were you born, what year? SMITH: November 23, 1909. HUNTLEY: You moved to Birmingham around what year?How old were you? SMITH: Well, I was an adult when I moved to Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Then, let' ; s just back up a bit and talk just briefly about your schooling.You became orphaned at an early age? SMITH: Yes, both my father and mother died in 1918, four months apart. HUNTLEY: You were about nine years old at the time.Who did you live with after that? SMITH: I lived with a Rev. and Mrs. Van Horn.They were distant relatives. HUNTLEY: That was where? SMITH: That was in Tuscaloosa County at a place called Cornerville Junction. HUNTLEY: In Tuscaloosa County were you in school at the time? SMITH: I started school that same year my mother died, at a place called Willows, which is not on the map. HUNTLEY: That is in Tuscaloosa County? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your school? SMITH: Well, I remember I could read very well and I must have been in an advance class because I started off in the second grade. About 1919, we moved to Bessemer. My foster father, a railroad man, began to be what you called " ; rolled" ; . HUNTLEY: Rolled from his job? SMITH: Yes.We then moved from Bessemer to a place called Valley Creek.And I didn' ; t start school there.We left there and we moved to Sumpter, Alabama and we moved before I could get into school there.We moved back to Yolanda, that' ; s not on the map either. HUNTLEY: Is that in Tuscaloosa County? SMITH: Yes. I did get to go to school there. Somehow I was in the fourth grade by the time I got back to Yolanda. We stayed in Yolanda maybe a year. But, in 1922 we moved I was in the to a place called Rock Castle. Some called it Davis Creek and some called it Rock Castle. HUNTLEY: Is that still Tuscaloosa County? SMITH: That' ; s still Tuscaloosa County.In 1922 my foster father had a mine accident.He lived two days. HUNTLEY: So he worked in the coal mines? SMITH: Yes.I think I had enrolled in school when that accident occurred. HUNTLEY: Did you have brothers and sisters? SMITH: I had one sister, we came up in the same home together.I had two brothers, they came up in another foster home and I had another brother who came up in another home. So we came up in three different foster homes. HUNTLEY: Were they in the same general area? SMITH: No. HUNTLEY: Did you lose contact with any of them? SMITH: My baby brother I lost contact with him from about 1920 to about 1927.His foster father took him to Detroit, Michigan. But I did keep in contact with the other two brothers. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see.You lived with a brother and they lived with a sister? SMITH: My sister' ; s age is one year and six months was reared along with three foster brothers. HUNTLEY: So you did have the contact with them? SMITH: Yes.So in 1922 the foster father died and these brothers knew nothing but mining and they began moving around.They left Rock Castle and moved to a place called Pritchett. HUNTLEY: Is this Pritchett in south Alabama? SMITH: It was out from Warrior. HUNTLEY: Now, you are saying " ; the brothers." ; These are brothers that lived with you after the death of my foster father I lived with his widowand his three sons. SMITH: The brothers I lived with and their mother. HUNTLEY: Then you stayed with them? SMITH: I stayed with them.Both my sister, age one and a half and I were reared along with three foster brothers after the death of our mother. HUNTLEY: As they moved, you moved along with them? SMITH: Were they your guardians at the time? SMITH: They were.The mother and those brothers.After Pritchett, we moved to Overton, Alabama probably, in ' ; 24 or ' ; 23 I went to school there from ' ; 24 to about 1926.But I kind of rebelled against going to school because of the fact that they made no effort in particular to send me to school. Education was not a priority to them.The missionary society bought my books that last year and I just thought that was too much. HUNTLEY: You thought the books cost too much? SMITH: No.I thought that in as much as I cooked and cleaned for these foster brothers, that they should have at least been able to buy books and shoes for me to wear to school.I rebelled. HUNTLEY: You rebelled against them?So what did you do in your rebellion? SMITH: Well, eventually I came back to Bessemer.I had an aunt living and I stayed there with her for about nine months and went to school there.I wound up in about the 7th or 8th grade.I think I was promoted to the 8th grade. HUNTLEY: After that did you go on to start working? SMITH: I started working. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did you do? SMITH: Wash dishes in the cafes and things like that. HUNTLEY: At what age did you get married? SMITH: I was 22. HUNTLEY: You were here in Birmingham at the time I assume.Tell me about the man that you married. SMITH: Well, the man that I marriedwas a good man, he adopted my son, when he was 6 years old.And my husband became a Baptist preacher in 1938 and we enrolled in the Easonian Baptist Seminary in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: The two of you enrolled? SMITH: Yes.We studied in that school a number of years.He went to Tuskegee and took some classes at Tuskegee.I enrolled in the Birmingham Baptist College in the junior high school department when my son was 21 years old.I finished senior high school and received a diploma also in Christian Education I was 42.We did a lot of traveling because my husband became an evangelist as well as a pastor. HUNTLEY: Tell me what part of Birmingham did you live in? SMITH: Smithfield and Enon Ridge. HUNTLEY: What was the community like at that time? SMITH: Well, I can' ; t tell you too much about the community because I worked all the time.I did domestic work.Work had been hard to get.We came through that 1920 crash and things were difficult along about that time.So, I worked all my life and I stayed a great deal to myself.I did not mingle a lot with the people of the community.Having lived in so many unpleasant environments made me want to keep to myself and family. HUNTLEY: Did the community itself, were you affiliated with a church at that particular time? SMITH: Yes.We joined the church in 1931. We were baptized together. HUNTLEY: Did that give you another outlet? SMITH: Yes, I became more social-minded towards the people in the church. HUNTLEY: What was Birmingham like at that time?We" ; re talking about the early 30s. SMITH: It was segregated.That was one reason why my son left because of the conditions that existed there.It was during the second world war that my son became a Merchant Seaman. HUNTLEY: Do you remember any specific incidents where segregation affected you and your family? SMITH: I cannot exactlyIt would take me too long to remember too many things about the segregated style of life. HUNTLEY: The whole era of segregation is one where it basically subjugated Black people to a position of.... SMITH: We couldn' ; t ride, for instance the bus, there was a partition between " ; us" ; and " ; them." ; We had to ride in the back and they ride in the front and there was a board that would be moved up when there was less White people on there. But, when they got on there, that board had to be moved back, I remember that.And, of course I remember the segregated eating and all that.You couldn' ; t go to these places and eat and enjoy ourselves as we do now. HUNTLEY: What about downtown, the movie theaters? SMITH: Oh, I never went to an integrated movie. HUNTLEY: Did you go to the theaters on 4th Avenue? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: That part of Birmingham, at that time, was rather vibrant. It had a lot of people in that area and you had Black businesses and people consistently shopped in those businesses, went to the movie theaters.This was Black Birmingham.What do you remember about that ,area? SMITH: Just right off hand I just cannot remember all together. HUNTLEY: Okay.Let' ; s move up a little bit further. SMITH: One thing about that.My son, he always wondered what was going in the White church that was not going on in the Black church.He wondered why is it that I can' ; t go into this White church. HUNTLEY: What did you tell him? SMITH: I don' ; t remember what I told him.I really didn' ; t have the answer.He did say one time " ; If I ever preach, I will be preaching to a White congregation" ; .I remember him telling me that. HUNTLEY: Is he a preacher now? SMITH: No.But, the church that he worked for, for 22 years, is an Episcopalian Church, one of the oldest churches that was established in the United States of America and he had a lot of contact with those people in that church .I think I gave Mrs. Hendricks a picture of him in this 275 year history of the Church and he is one of four Black men mentioned in this 275 year history. HUNTLEY: He is one of four Blacks who is mentioned? SMITH: Yes, one of the four Blacksrecorded in the history of the Parish Church of St. Helena in Beaufort, South Carolina. HUNTLEY: At what point did you get involved with the Civil Rights Movement? SMITH: When it was first organized.I believe the first meeting that I attended was at Sardis Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: This was probably in the beginning.I think the first one was at Sardis and it was 1956. SMITH: Well I don' ; t remember when it was. HUNTLEY: This was initially organized as the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights by Fred Shuttlesworth.So you were in attendance at those first meetings? SMITH: Yes.But what really got me stirred up about it was, I was studying Negro Makers of History by Carter G. Woodson at the Birmingham Baptist College and at the same time we were studying there, Dr. Martin Luther King was beginning his leadership in Montgomery and I used to keep a scrap book of all the activities that were going on among our people. And, one of the main ones that I remember was when Dr. Martin Luther King was stabbed by a woman in New York and that knife was sticking in his chest and I had that picture. I had pictures of Dr. Shuttlesworth coming out of his house when it was bombed and pictures like that I kept in my scrap book for years.I never thought I' ; d need them.But that first meeting we attended, I think my husband and I probably attended that first meeting and we kept up with it, but I don' ; t remember exactly why he dropped out, but I continued. HUNTLEY: Why did you continue and he dropped out? SMITH: I was interested.I had been stirred up about what was going on and I just kept going. HUNTLEY: In your activity with the Movement you went to many mass meetings .SMITH: Quite a few of them. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me what a mass meeting was like?How would you describe a mass meeting? SMITH: Well, I can describe just one. I went every night that my school teacher would take me. HUNTLEY: Who was the school teacher? SMITH: She was a Miss Doris Miles. HUNTLEY: Was she related to you? SMITH: No.She was my landlady.And, she would go up every night and we would sit in the balcony and watch.That' ; s how I became so involved, just watching every night. HUNTLEY: You always sat in the balcony? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: You never sat on the first floor? SMITH: We didn' ; t. HUNTLEY: Why do you think you sat in the balcony? SMITH: I don' ; t know, but I was with her.I don' ; t know why we went into the balcony. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see.So you basically was just following her to the balcony.I know there were many teachers who were afraid to lose their jobs if they were involved. SMITH: I think that was it. HUNTLEY: But, at least she was there.There were many that didn' ; t even attend, but she didn' ; t want to be seen, I assume. HUNTLEY: I would pray every night that the Lord would send some marchers, but I wasn' ; t about to go myself.I only prayed that God would send somebody.And, this particular night, Dr. Shuttlesworth said, while making this appeal, I' ; m going to tell you like Mordecai told Esther when the Jews were about to be exterminated." ; He said, " ; Mordecai told Esther don' ; t you think that because you are in the king' ; s palace that you will not be destroyed along with the rest of us." ; I remember that at that meeting.And that must have been the night when I went back home and woke up the next morning and all those songs that we had been singing, they moved me. My husband had gone fishing.And, I said, I haven' ; t seen my son in five years.I' ; m going down and be arrested today, and I' ; m going to be somebody' ; s mother tomorrow, in jail.I packed my little bag with my Bible and my toothpaste and little things, and a white dress because Sunday, was Mother' ; s Day. HUNTLEY: So this was the Saturday before Mother' ; s Day in 1963? SMITH: Yes.And, I went on down to 16th Street Baptist Church. They gave us directions as to which way to go.They singled us out by twos.And, there was a young teenager with me.I think when I got outside that I was hoping that I was not going to be arrested.And, instead of going down 6th Avenue like we were supposed to go. HUNTLEY: That is where most of the other marchers were going? SMITH: Yes. But I turned with the young girl and went on down by 16th Street Baptist Church, went up 7th Avenue and down to 19th Street right down by City Hall. HUNTLEY: Why did you take a different route than everyone else? SMITH: I think I was hoping I wasn' ; t going to get arrested after all.I had second thoughts.They had told us to stay right there because there' ; ll be somebody.Others will be coming, you just stay there. HUNTLEY: You mean, at City Hall? SMITH: Yes.But when I got to City Hall, I and the young person just knelt right down at the steps and began praying and that' ; s when they got us. HUNTLEY: You mean, at City Hall? SMITH: We were to go, two-by-two to City Hall. HUNTLEY: In that line? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: But you decided to go in a different direction? SMITH: Yes.I think I got cold feet and hope that I didn' ; t get caught after all. HUNTLEY: So did the others make it to City Hall that day? SMITH: They arrested as we came and put us in the van that was at City Hall and they would wait until somebody else would come until that van got full and they would carry us on over to the city jail. HUNTLEY: So you were arrested that day? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: What did you feel when you were arrested at City Hall? SMITH: Well, I felt excited just like all the rest of them that were singing. We just began singing. It wasn' ; t no more than we expected. HUNTLEY: They took you over to the city jail? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: Fingerprinted you? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: And put you into a cell? SMITH: Yes.There was a whole lot of us in a cell. HUNTLEY: How long did you remain there? SMITH: From that Saturday to that next Sunday before day, we were let out. HUNTLEY: So you were there for a week? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about being there for that week?What did you do for a week? SMITH: Well, we led the people in singing and praying and trying to keep order.There was a lot of disorder there. HUNTLEY: What kind of disorder? SMITH: Well, I woke up one morning and two women were at each other, saying everything they could think to say.And we were right up over the police station and the police heard everything that was being said.And, I said to these women, " ; We are right here over this police station and they hear everything you say." ; And I tried to tell them that we have no business talking like this.She said, " ; What would you have said if she had of spoke to you like she did to me?" ; I said, " ; What do you think Dr. King would have had to say?" ; Well, she said, " ; I' ; m not Dr. King." ; I said, " ; He wouldn' ; t want you here." ; HUNTLEY: Was this one of the people who had been protesting? SMITH: Really, I don' ; t know. HUNTLEY: How did you handle that? SMITH: I just told her " ; He wouldn' ; t want you here." ; That quieted that down.They didn' ; t have room for everybody in jail. They had to put a lot of men and boys on the outside and a big storm came up during the night and the men were out screaming in the storm.And I said to the women, " ; Sisters, our brothers are out there in that storm, let' ; s pray." ; And we stopped and prayed. I don' ; t remember when the storm stopped.I don' ; t remember what happened. HUNTLEY: But you stopped and prayed? SMITH: Yes.And, then one morning we were having devotion and when we didn' ; t break and run to get to the door for breakfast they just shut the door in our face.She just shut the door in our face, we didn' ; t get breakfast that morning. HUNTLEY: Why were you late? SMITH: We were having prayer. HUNTLEY: And they had asked you to come in and you continued to pray? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: And by the time that you finished, they had closed the door? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: So, even in jail, there was a certain amount of rebellion against the system?Meaning that you were going to do the singing, the praying, regardless of what the consequences? SMITH: They hollered up there " ; Stop that singing." ; They could hear us. HUNTLEY: " ; They" ; meaning the prison guards? SMITH: Yes.But we sang, right on.Because one day we wasn' ; t singing and it was at the same time Dr. King was in that other building.Somebody went to the window and looked out and they said, " ; Dr. King said sing." ; I didn' ; t hear him myself, but somebody that could see him said, " ; Dr. King said sing." ; So we went on back to singing. HUNTLEY: At that point you were 50 or 53.Were you the oldest person in jail at that time? SMITH: I can' ; t tell, because there were about 200 people and I couldn' ; t tell.There was Mrs. Peagues might have been round about my age, and then there were two women from the church that my husband pastored that were there, they were younger than we were. HUNTLEY: What was the response of your husband when you were arrested? SMITH: We never talked about it. HUNTLEY: Never mentioned it? SMITH: I never remember discussing it. HUNTLEY: Did he get you out? SMITH: Oh, no.The Movement did. HUNTLEY: After you were released from jail, did you go back to the meetings? SMITH: No.It wasn' ; t that I was afraid to go back, it was all of the flak I was getting. HUNTLEY: Who were you getting flak from? SMITH: The first one was that I remember I was reared in that family and this preacher' ; s wife called me and told me, " ; I' ; m so mad at you, I don' ; t know what to do." ; I said, " ; What are you mad about?" ; She said, " ; You had to go down there and get yourself arrested." ; And, then, my sister-in-law said that my husband' ; s pastor asked him if he beat me for going down there and getting arrested. HUNTLEY: Did she tell you what your husband had said?The reply? SMITH: No. HUNTLEY: So all these individuals were not associated with the Movement? SMITH: Oh, no.The people that were associated with the Movement never criticized me.It was the church, they reacted coldly. HUNTLEY: So that church was not actively involved in the struggles? SMITH: Just two people had the nerve to go and be in that demonstration. HUNTLEY: So they treated you rather crudely after you were released from jail? SMITH: Yes. HUNTLEY: So you never participated again? SMITH: I never went back.Except, let me see, I think my husband had passed when we made that march.No, he didn' ; t pass until 1979, but in 1965 I participated in that march. HUNTLEY: The march from Selma to Montgomery? SMITH: I didn' ; t go all the way from Selma. I went to St. Jude Hospital in Montgomery along with New Pilgrim Baptist Church. From the St. Jude hospital, we marched with those who had begun the marched in Selma. HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to participate in that march? SMITH: My husband didn' ; t object.He didn' ; t really say " ; You can' ; t" ; . He never said that.So I went there and went to Dr. Martin Luther King' ; s funeral.When Dr. King' ; s mother was killed, I went down to Atlanta to view her body.I didn' ; t stay for the funeral.But my husband never said " ; You can' ; t." ; HUNTLEY: He was just not active himself? SMITH: He was not active himself, but he did not say, " ; You can' ; t." ; HUNTLEY: Well, you' ; ve been very active any number of ways.You were active in the Movement during that time.You' ; ve marched from Selma to Montgomery.You went to Dr. King' ; s funeral in ' ; 68 and, then you decided to complete your education.Tell me about that. SMITH: Well, the New Pilgrim Baptist Church, Dr. N.H. Smith, pastor of which I was a member of and my husband was associate pastor of that church when he died, sent me to Haiti along with another member of the church to check on some land that they was to erect a church school on. And, while I was there, I began to wonder if Haiti wasn' ; t the place where I was supposed to do foreign mission work.But, I didn' ; t have a skill so, when I came back and decided that I would like to go into nurse training and I enrolled in Bessemer Tech. They told me, " ; You can' ; t make the grade at your age." ; HUNTLEY: You were in your 70s? SMITH: Yes.But they told me, " ; You can' ; t make the grade because the oldest person that we have ever trained was 65," ; and I was passed 65. HUNTLEY: So did you quit at that point? SMITH: No.The foreign mission bureau sent a letter to Bessemer Tech and told them they were interested in me returning to Haiti and if they could train me, they wanted to send me to Haiti.It grieved me quite a bit that I couldn' ; t pass the test.But it was then that the Lord took over.He said, " ; Go to Miles College." ; I called Miles College and I got Dr. Estes in Humanities.I told her the situation and she said, " ; You come to Miles College and we will take you from where you are to where you need to go" ; .I enrolled in the summer program in 1983.I got a grant to continue schooling.I was given a $1,000 scholarship by a group. HUNTLEY: That was based on your grades at that point, isn' ; t that right? SMITH: I got a grant.I began going to school on the grant.And, then somewhere later down the line I got this scholarship. HUNTLEY: What were you studying? SMITH: General education, but my major was English. HUNTLEY: At that point you were in your mid-70s, right? SMITH: I was 74 when I enrolled.I was 77 when I finished, but I didn' ; t march until the next year in May. HUNTLEY: Well, how was it coming back to school, being in school all day, every day with children who could have been your grandchildren? SMITH: In the first place, it filled a void.I had lost my husband, I had been married to him almost 48 years. HUNTLEY: When you came back out here to school that filled that void and it gave you again, a sense of purpose, I' ; m assuming.I can imagine what that was like.What the other students think of you being here? SMITH: I was a missionary here.I didn' ; t go back to Haiti, but I was a missionary on Miles Campus. HUNTLEY: Explain that to me.What did you do?How were you a missionary? SMITH: Well, to begin with there was a young woman in my class and she was most disorderly.It seemed she delighted to run over this White teacher and she kept up a disturbance in that class.One morning I asked him if I could read a scripture and have prayer. HUNTLEY: Was this after this particular person was disruptive in class? SMITH: She had been disrupting the class all time and the instructor said, " ; Yes." ; And, I read a scripture from the second chapter of Ezekiel, where it is written, " ; Forthey are impudent children and stiffed hearted...." ; a preacher prayed and needless to say, it worked. HUNTLEY: So what did the kids call you? SMITH: Grandma.I told them you can call me Grandma, I like it. HUNTLEY: So you were an inspiration then? SMITH: I think I must have been.There was a lot of things, but that stood out. HUNTLEY: Well, you' ; ve obviously had a long tenure and you have been very, very active and you are still active because you drove here today, right? SMITH: Yes.I' ; m active in my church, The Greater Temple Missionary Baptist Church.My pastor is Dr. James A. Gibson, Jr. HUNTLEY: So you are still serving?That' ; s phenomenal.Is there anything that we have not covered that you would just like to leave us with today? SMITH: I can only say to God be the glory that he has used such an insignificant person as myself in this program: INSPIRED BY THE PAST /A VISION OF THE FUTURE HUNTLEY: Thank you Mrs. Smith for spending the time with us today.I appreciate it very much. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=FWSmith1995.xml FWSmith1995.xml
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Flora Washington Smith
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Flora Washington Smith discusses getting involved with ACMHR from the earliest meetings. She participated in the Selma to Montgomery March, even after spending a week in jail for demonstrating in Birmingham.
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19950927S
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Selma to Montgomery Rights March (1965 : Selma, Ala.)
Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department
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1995-09-27
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video
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6cc2ea610bd8baed9e645d71c40a0bec
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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Emily Thomas Ellis
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ETEllis1995.xml
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J.J. Newberry (Department Store)
United States. Civil Rights Act of 1964
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5.4 July 12, 1995 Emily Thomas Ellis 19950712E 0:43:56 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department J.J. Newberry (Department Store) United States. Civil Rights Act of 1964 Emily Thomas Ellis Horace Huntley Video 1:|13(7)|43(4)|67(10)|92(8)|110(9)|134(7)|158(2)|180(2)|211(8)|246(4)|262(2)|282(8)|296(10)|309(3)|328(8)|360(16)|375(7)|392(1)|407(9)|432(13)|450(8)|474(2)|490(11)|513(7)|528(10)|557(2)|578(10)|604(4)|619(14)|639(15)|657(14)|671(11)|689(1)|711(1)|725(6)|740(10)|754(3)|767(2)|790(3)|802(13)|814(7)|827(7)|839(10) 0 https://youtu.be/trQsIg-gWiY YouTube video English 19 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Ms. Emily Thomas Ellis for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College. Emily Thomas Ellis is introduced. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Ellis, Emily Thomas ; Miles College African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Oral history interview 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute 33.4810, -86.9089 17 Miles College https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 34 Family Background Thank you for coming out and sitting with us today to talk to us about your experiences in the Civil Rights Movement. Ellis begins by describing her family ; her father worked at Fairfield Steel, and her mother was a housewife. Ellis is the second oldest of six children. Fairfield (Ala.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; U.S. Steel Fairfield Steel ; Industrial High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; U.S. Steel 123 Educational Background Where did you start first grade? Ellis describes the schools she attended in her childhood, and she goes into detail about her experiences at Parker High School ; she talks about her personal development during that time as well as all the teachers who helped her and other school administrators. She also speaks about how she worked for Head Start and then taught at Price Elementary School. Daniel Payne College ; Head Start Program (U.S.) ; Miles College ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Price Elementary School (Birmingham, Ala.) African American school principals ; Birmingham Public Schools (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Head Start Program (U.S.) 429 Student Protests & ; Demonstrations What do you remember about those days, let's say prior to the big demonstrations of '63? Ellis recounts her experience in the 1963 demonstrations walking to 16th St. Baptist Church after arriving at school to discover that the gates were locked. She states there were about 500 students from Parker High School that marched there. She also describes the injuries she received during the marches. King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Williams, Hosea ; Wren, Tommy ; Young, Andrew 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; African American student movements ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 994 Circumstances of Arrest & ; Reactions from Social Circles Tell me about the day you were arrested. How did the day start? Ellis details her arrest after sitting at the lunch counter at Newberry's, and then tells how her family members and teachers responded to her experience after being released from jail. J.J. Newberry (Department Store) ; Nonviolence Arrest--United States ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 1691 Discrimination in Birmingham I got on the bus one day, there were no seats and there were plenty seats up front. Ellis speaks about racial discrimination she faced in Birmingham including riding the bus downtown, not being served in retail spaces, and how she watched her friend's school grades dramatically decrease once she was integrated into West End High School. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Roosevelt City, (Ala.) ; West End High School (Birmingham, Ala.) Discrimination in education--United States ; Discrimination in retail service ; Segregation in transportation 2031 The Bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church & ; Its Effects This particular time, in 1965, '64, of course, there are a number of things that are taking place. All this started in '63. The bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church, do you remember that? Ellis recalls the community's intense anger after the bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church.Also, how she saw more African Americans employed in Birmingham businesses after the Civil Rights Bill was passed. United States. Civil Rights Act of 1964 ; Wesley, Claude 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; African Americans--Employment 2305 The Movement & ; Future Generations If you had the opportunity, if you had the wherewithal to be able to change anything that you went through at the time, what would you change? Ellis summarizes her feelings on the Movement and reflects on how its success left a positive impact for the future generations, including her daughter. She emphasizes how the values of nonviolence are key to the continuing improvement of society. Future of children ; Nonviolence Civil rights movement 2599 Conclusion of Interview Mrs. Ellis, I want to thank you for coming today and we certainly do appreciate it. Interview is concluded. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history interview Oral History Emily Thomas Ellis discusses being arrested for participating in a sit-in at Newberry's department store. She was also injured in a large student march in 1963. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Emily Thomas Ellis for the Birmingham Civil Rights lnstitute' ; s Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College. This July 12, 1995. Welcome, Mrs. Ellis. ELLIS: Thank you. HUNTLEY: Thank you for coming out and sitting with us today to talk to us about your experiences in the Civil Rights Movement. I want to start just by asking some general kinds of questions about your background. Tell me a little about your parents. Were your parents from Birmingham? ELLIS: Yes. Both were from Birmingham. My mother was a housewife and my father was a steel worker at Fairfield Steel in Fairfield. HUNTLEY: I see. Tell me a little about their education. How much schooling did they have? ELLIS: My mother finished high school and my father was a high school drop out, but he still worked at U. S. Steel to support the family. HUNTLEY: Did she go to Parker? ELLIS: Yes she did. During the time that she went it was Industrial High School and I think it was in 1942 or something like that when she finished Parker. HUNTLEY: Did he also go to Parker? ELLIS: No. He didn' ; t get any further than elementary school. HUNTLEY: I see. And, he was a steel worker at U. S. Steel? ELLIS: Yes. He retired from U. S. Steel. HUNTLEY: And your mother was a housewife, she worked at home? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have? ELLIS: I have three sisters and two brothers. HUNTLEY: Where do you fit into that group? ELLIS: I' ; m the second. HUNTLEY: You' ; re the second oldest? ELLIS: I' ; m the second oldest. HUNTLEY: Where did you start first grade? ELLIS: I started first grade in Rising, at Princeton Elementary school. The principal was Mr. Wesley, Claude A. Wesley during the time that I was there. HUNTLEY: So did you go at Princeton from first through sixth grade? ELLIS: Yes. During that time Princeton stopped at the fifth grade. So after the fifth grade I went to Hill school. And Mr. Parnell C. Jones was the principal there. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Hill school? ELLIS: The teachers were nice. Very strict, but concerned and dedicated. HUNTLEY: Were you living in Rising at the time? ELLIS: Yes. I was living in Rising during that time. HUNTLEY: So Rising is probably three or four miles from Hill. How did you get from Rising to Hill? ELLIS: We used to walk or either we would commute, car pool. HUNTLEY: You mean you walked that distance? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Kids today don' ; t want to walk to the grocery store. ELLIS: Well, we did. We did or either we car pooled. HUNTLEY: And you went from Hill to Parker? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you graduated from Parker High school? ELLIS: Yes. In January, 1965. HUNTLEY: Were you active in any of the activities at Parker? ELLIS: During that time I was very shy. I wasn' ; t active. I really wasn' ; t a very good student until the 10th grade. I was shy. And when I got into the 10th grade I met Loretta Allen and she inspired me to be myself and have confidence in myself. And still today, she' ; s my mentor. I still call her now. HUNTLEY: What was her name? ELLIS: Loretta Allen. She is at the board now. HUNTLEY: So that' ; s your mentor? ELLIS: Yes. She' ; ll always be my mentor. HUNTLEY: Great. Parker is obviously known worldwide and I know that you are very proud of Parker. How would you characterize Parker? What was it like to be a student at Parker High in the 1960s? ELLIS: Well, during that time Parker High school was " ; the school" ; . I was proud to be a student there. We didn' ; t have fights there or gangs or anything like that. Mostly everybody was just friends and things like that. During school hours we had auditorium periods and we had very nice programs and the principal, of course, " ; Big Red." ; Everybody that knew him, R. C. Johnson as " ; Big Red," ; he was a very strict principal. HUNTLEY: Was " ; Big Red" ; a nickname that the students gave him? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: So you didn' ; t call him that in front of his face? ELLIS: Oh, no. You didn' ; t call him that. During that time, even though Parker High school was so crowded, he knew every student at Parker High school. HUNTLEY: By name? ELLIS: By name. Yes. He could call you by name. HUNTLEY: So basically you knew that you were known? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: So that, in fact, was a deterrent against getting into any trouble or anything? ELLIS: Yes. And, then, not only that, during that time the teachers really kept you in line. They were really a tremendous role model. HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school? ELLIS: After high school I went into Daniel Payne College for two years. And I went there, I dropped out, I got married, I had a child and I worked for Head Start for 23 years. And, after leaving Head Start after 23 years, I got on with the board in August, 1992. HUNTLEY: And that was as a result of your completing a degree? ELLIS: Yes, at Miles College in May, 1992. HUNTLEY: And now what kind of work are you doing? ELLIS: Presently, I am a second grade teacher at Price Elementary school. HUNTLEY: So you like to deal with the younger ones? ELLIS: I love it. HUNTLEY: Is that right? ELLIS: Yes. I like it very much. HUNTLEY: Great. During your high school days, this was during sort of the height of the Movement, between ' ; 61 and ' ; 65. ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about those days, let' ; s say prior to the big demonstrations of ' ; 63? Do you remember the Freedom Riders coming to Birmingham? ELLIS: Oh, yes. I remember them very well. One morning when I got to school I was getting off the bus and I think the gates were locked and I was saying " ; Why are all the gates locked?" ; And there were all of these men standing outside and they were saying " ; Don' ; t try to go inside the gate." ; And he told us, he said, " ; Just march in single file and we' ; re going to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church." ; HUNTLEY: This is actually in ' ; 63 then when the demonstrations were going on? ELLIS: Yes, it was. HUNTLEY: So you went to school? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And that morning, I assume you walked to school? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: You arrived there and you found that the gates were locked? You could not get into the classroom? ELLIS: Well, what I think had happened, they had been told it was going to be something like, turning out a mass-- HUNTLEY: So the gates were locked to keep the children inside? ELLIS: Yes. The ones who were already in there, they had to stay in. I don' ; t know who told them but I think they were warned that we were going to walk out. HUNTLEY: So you were one of those students that never made it in? ELLIS: No. I didn' ; t. HUNTLEY: Well, how many students were outside the gates? ELLIS: Over five or six hundred. You couldn' ; t hardly see the sidewalk. HUNTLEY: So what happened? ELLIS: There were about four or five men outside and they told us don' ; t go inside. HUNTLEY: Do you remember who those men were? ELLIS: If I' ; m not mistaken, maybe Hosea Williams. I saw Hosea Williams and during that time, I think Andrew Young and Tommy Wren, I think. I' ; m not sure it' ; s been so long. HUNTLEY: Were they talking to the students? ELLIS: Yes. They said " ; marching in single file and y' ; all follow us. We' ; re going down to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church." ; HUNTLEY: So you were marching in single file from Parker High school to Sixteenth Street? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Now Parker is on what? ELLIS: Eighth Avenue, North. HUNTLEY: Eighth Avenue and what street is that cross street? .ELLIS: Third Street. HUNTLEY: On Third Street? ELLIS: Yes. Back then that address was 300 Eighth Avenue North. HUNTLEY: So you were marching from Third Street to Sixteenth Street? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you had 500 children? That was a pretty big group? ELLIS: Yes, it was. And we did stop for the traffic lights and it took us a long time to get there, but we still arrived there safely without anything happening. HUNTLEY: And, then, what happened once you arrived at Sixteenth Street? ELLIS: I was so shocked because I had never seen Dr. Martin Luther King before and he was in the pulpit and he introduced himself. He told us why we were there. He told us that they were going to use us for the march. He said that we were tired of being pushed around. Tired of riding at the back of the bus. Tired of not being able to eat at the lunch counters. Tired of going in the restroom and there is a " ; white" ; sign and a " ; colored" ; sign. Tired of drinking out of the water fountain that says " ; colored only" ; and, then, most of the time it was out of order. So that meant that we didn' ; t have anywhere to get any water when we were in town. - - HUNTLEY: So how was he received then. You' ; re estimating 500 students coming from Parker. Were there students from other schools as well? ELLIS: I really don' ; t know. I can only just speak for the ones from Parker, but I know it was just packed. HUNTLEY: The church was packed? ELLIS: Yes. And they taught us freedom songs, " ; I ain' ; t going to let nobody turn me around." ; " ; I woke up this morning with my mind set on freedom." ; And we learned those songs. HUNTLEY: This was, of course, during the day, but did you attend the mass meetings on a regular basis? ELLIS: Yes, I did. HUNTLEY: Did you do that prior to this particular time or did you start attending them after? ELLIS: Well, I had attended several ones before at New Pilgrim Baptist Church. HUNTLEY: What were the mass meetings like? How would you describe a mass meeting? ELLIS: Very spiritual and rewarding. HUNTLEY: How was it rewarding? ELLIS: They had the gospel choir. They sang freedom songs. It was just so moving and spiritual and it really hit you and put that drive in you that you wanted more. That you want to be more. That you weren' ; t going to let anybody stop you from reaching your goal. Those spiritual and those gospel songs and prayer was just so rewarding. HUNTLEY: The mass meetings that you attended were they similar to what happened that day that you left Parker and came to Sixteenth Street? ELLIS: Yes. Very much the same. They were just introducing us to different people and, then, telling us why we were going to do this. HUNTLEY: Did you actually march that particular day? ELLIS: No. I didn' ; t march. I think it was about two days later before I marched. As a matter of fact, I think I marched three days before I was arrested. The first day when I marched, my hair was so pretty. I had a head full of pretty curls and we marched. And, the policemen put the dogs on us. They had the hose pipe on us and the water was so forceful from the hose pipe until it just slit my arm open. I mean it just laid open. HUNTLEY: Were you taken to the hospital? ELLIS: No. I really didn' ; t make a big deal out of it, but my arm was badly bruised. HUNTLEY: Was it bruised or was it actually open? ELLIS: It was open and bleeding, yes. And, so I did not get arrested that day. HUNTLEY: Were you doing this with the approval of your parents? ELLIS: No. She thought I was in school, my mother. My parents thought that I was in school. They didn' ; t ever know what I was doing. HUNTLEY: But, when you came home with your arm open? ELLIS: Yes. I really didn' ; t explain to her. As a matter of fact, I really didn' ; t let her see. But, later on, after a couple of days it was kind of stiff and I was telling her. And she said, " ; What happened?" ; And I don' ; t know what I told her. HUNTLEY: But you didn' ; t tell her that you were in the march? ELLIS: It wasn' ; t related to the marching at all, no. Because she wouldn' ; t -- HUNTLEY: So was that the first day of the march that you were attacked? ELLIS: No. I didn' ; t get attacked that bad the first day. I think it was mostly like the second or the third day. HUNTLEY: Okay. Then were you leaving home every morning? ELLIS: Like I was going to school. HUNTLEY: But you would go to Sixteenth Street? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Every morning? ELLIS: Every morning. HUNTLEY: Were there other students with you that were doing the same thing? Would you go to school and, then, leave there and go to Sixteenth Street, or would you go directly from home to Sixteenth Street? ELLIS: No. We would meet up at school. And, then, one day when we got to school we walked out. HUNTLEY: Okay. Tell me about that. You were in, how did you get out? ELLIS: Well, of course, the gates were opened and so we decided that we would just go into school that morning. And we went in and stayed about a half hour. After we had been in there somebody said, " ; Hey, it' ; s time to go." ; So I don' ; t know if they were already outside waiting for us or what. And they said, " ; Hey, it' ; s time to go." ; And so when " ; they" ; said it was time to go, all the students just stood up, they slammed their books down and they walked out. HUNTLEY: All of the students? ELLIS: In that class and some more classes, too. And, then it was somebody again waiting on us outside and they took us back down to Sixteenth Street church. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the day that you were arrested. How did the day start? ELLIS: Well, I left home like I was going to school and my friends and I, well, we went to the church. We were singing songs and they were preaching to us non violence. You aren' ; t supposed to be violent. Don' ; t hit back. That was all they ever said. That this is a non-violent movement. And, so they lined us up and we started to march and we go down to Newberry' ; s and we walked in. There were policemen already in the street. And, so when we walked in, there were so many of us, we sat down to the counter and they refused to serve us and they asked us to get up. And we would not get up. And they started to pulling us up from the seats. And as they pulled us up from the seats, we just got on our knees and we started praying. HUNTLEY: Before you left, you walked from the school to the church? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And, then at the church, what happened? ELLIS: Okay. When we got to the church they was telling us where we were supposed to go for that day, and what to do. They said, " ; We' ; re going down to Newberry' ; s and we' ; re going to be served at that counter or we' ; re going to jail." ; HUNTLEY: Was that the entire church or were there designated places for different people to go? ELLIS: Well, I think during this particular day, if I' ; m not mistaken, I think everybody went to Newberry' ; s. Yes. I think we were all designated that day for Newberry' ; s. HUNTLEY: And, then, you went in, you sat at the counter? ELLIS: Yes. And there were Whites sitting there and when we sat down they jumped up, like that. And, then, when we told them that we wanted something to eat, they refused to serve us. Then, they told us to move and the policemen started to pull on us. And, as they pulled on to me I just went down on my knees. And I did my hands like this, I started praying. And, as I said, there were so many of us and they would put us in paddy wagons and everything. And it was so many of us until I was able to get on a big bus. I don' ; t remember what kind of bus it was, but I went to jail on the bus. HUNTLEY: Did they force you to get off your knees or did they have to carry out you to the paddy wagon? ELLIS: They would try to carry us. HUNTLEY: Okay. So they carried you? ELLIS: Pulling and carried. HUNTLEY: And you were then put on a bus and taken where? ELLIS: The Birmingham jail was so full that we went to the fairgrounds. HUNTLEY: And how long were you there? ELLIS: I think for two days. HUNTLEY: What was it like, in jail? What was the experience like? ELLIS: Well, we didn' ; t really consider ourselves as being jailed. What we considered as being in jail was being alive all these years and we couldn' ; t eat here, couldn' ; t sit there. So I think to us it wasn' ; t as bad. HUNTLEY: What was the food like? ELLIS: The food was nice, sandwiches, catered food and like that. But, we didn' ; t eat. We would sing and pray all night. And we didn' ; t sleep. HUNTLEY: Why? What were you doing? ELLIS: We didn' ; t want to sleep. HUNTLEY: You say you were singing and praying? ELLIS: All night. We wanted to get our point over that we were tired. Tired of being without and tired of not being able to ride the bus and tired of drinking out of a water fountain that said " ; colored." ; HUNTLEY: What did you do for those two days? Did you do anything other than just sing and pray? You said you didn' ; t eat. Would you do any work? Did they work you? ELLIS: We didn' ; t do anything. It was so crowded. HUNTLEY: How many people were you with? ELLIS: Well, it was just so crowded. I don' ; t know, maybe about four or five hundred. HUNTLEY: Did you have beds? ELLIS: Yes. They had some of these little cots and things, but we didn' ; t sleep. We just stood and we got on our knees and we prayed a lot. HUNTLEY: So you, in effect, basically kept them very busy? ELLIS: Yes. That was our reason that we weren' ; t going to sleep, we were going to keep them busy. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your release from jail, from the fairgrounds? ELLIS: Well, I remember when they bailed us out. It was an experience not ever going before a judge before, but it wasn' ; t that traumatic. The most traumatic part was being in bondage all those years. HUNTLEY: What did your mother have to say? When did your mother first find out that you were in jail?· ELLIS: When I called her. HUNTLEY: And what was her reaction? ELLIS: She had a fit. She said, " ; I thought you were in school." ; And I said, " ; I hadn' ; t been at school in about a week." ; And I told her, I said, " ; But not to worry, they are going to get us out." ; And I think she called, I don' ; t know who she called. I think she called somebody and they told her that they were going to bail everybody out. And so she didn' ; t have that to do. But, when I was released and I went home and she told me, she said that, " ; I thought you were in school." ; I said, " ; Well, mother, I hadn' ; t been in school in about a week. I' ; m marching for something that I believe in." ; She didn' ; t give me any static. She just told me that she would support me in my beliefs. I think by them, by her being a housewife and she wanted more for her kids anyway, and you just really have to stand strong and just really do what you believe in. HUNTLEY: What did your father say about your participation? ELLIS: He had a fit. He had a fit. He just took his hand, when I got home and he said, " ; And you haven' ; t been to school in a week." ; And, I said, " ; Well, let me explain to you." ; And I went on to explain to him and he kind of calmed down. And later on he told me that he understood and he asked me, " ; Now how is this going effect you in school?" ; I said, " ; I don' ; t right now, and I' ; m not really concerned about school right now." ; HUNTLEY: Were you suspended from school? ELLIS: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: For how long? ELLIS: Well, I think about 3 or 4 days. HUNTLEY: Did your parents have to take you back to school? ELLIS: Yes, they had to take me back. But, if I' ; m not mistaken, I think that there was an order handed down that everybody that had been suspended from school had to go back. The board had to let them back. HUNTLEY: So how were you received when you went back to school by your teachers? ELLIS: Fine. HUNTLEY: Did they encourage you at all to get involved or did they suggest that you should not get involved? What was their posture at the time? ELLIS: Well, I' ; m trying to think. My homeroom teacher didn' ; t really say very much, but they were concerned. And, I guess back then you just really had to not get so involved yourself or give anybody advice. But, we were young and we just wanted to do it. HUNTLEY: After you were released from jail, the first time, did you demonstrate again? ELLIS: I sure did. I went back again. HUNTLEY: Did you leave school again? ELLIS: Yes, I did. HUNTLEY: Did your parents know that you had left school? ELLIS: No. HUNTLEY: But you were not arrested a second time? ELLIS: No, I wasn' ; t. And back during that time they used to call your home when you were out, but I think during this time they had so many out doing the marching. HUNTLEY: So no one ever called your home? ELLIS: No. And, then, too they might have called, but no one was there during that time. HUNTLEY: Then after this first encounter and, then, you demonstrated again, you were not arrested, but were you attacked? Were you attacked by the dogs? ELLIS: Still with the water and the dogs and the clubs. HUNTLEY: Were you personally physically attacked? ELLIS: Hit. I mean they would hit you. HUNTLEY: Who are " ; they" ; now? ELLIS: The policemen. They would tell you to move and if you didn' ; t move, they would hit you for you to move. I' ; m not going to say it was a violent blow, hard enough to send me to the hospital, but you could feel it. HUNTLEY: Where were you hit? ELLIS: Hit on the arms and the legs, something like that. HUNTLEY: Did you ever encounter just average White citizens that attacked anything during the demonstrations or was it just always police and firemen? ELLIS: It was always policemen and the firemen that really did everything to us. Well, to me. HUNTLEY: What about the dogs? What was your reaction when the dogs were turned loose? ELLIS: I had said I was sad, because we' ; re supposed to be human beings and for them to sic dogs onto human beings, I was very upset about that. Knowing that we meant so little to them as human beings to put animals on us. HUNTLEY: Were there other members of your family involved? ELLIS: No. I was the only one. HUNTLEY: So your parents really were not involved? Did they attend the mass meetings? ELLIS: No. They didn' ; t attend the meetings and they weren' ; t involved. HUNTLEY: So you' ; re the only one out of your family that was actively involved? ELLIS: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: What were the reactions of your brothers and sisters? ELLIS: They were shocked because they thought I was in school. And, then I was always the quiet one. And they said, " ; I know she hasn' ; t been cutting school like that." ; But I was. And they were very shocked. They were disturbed. HUNTLEY: They were disturbed with it? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: What did they say to you? ELLIS: Well, they were younger and they hadn' ; t the experience that I had going to Woolworth or going to Newberry' ; s or riding the bus. I got on bus one day, there were no seats and there were plenty seats up to the front. And, I moved the sign where it said " ; White" ; , up some so I could have a seat and the bus driver stopped the bus. HUNTLEY: And what did he do? ELLIS: And he told me that I had to go to the back and I said, " ; Well, there are no seats in the back." ; And he said, " ; But you' ; ll have to stand up." ; And another time I rode the bus I sat down and this lady jumped up and she rung the bell and she got off. HUNTLEY: Was this a White woman? ELLIS: Yes. She got off. And usually when we got on the bus and there were seats and if we attempted to sit down, they would call the police on us. That was before the marching had started. HUNTLEY: After the boards were removed and you rode the bus, did you go to the rear of the bus? ELLIS: Yes, I did. But it wasn' ; t a good atmosphere nine times out of ten. They would turn like this or do something like they' ; d look out the window. Or either they would hold their head down. HUNTLEY: So you would sit in the front then with White people? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Rather than going to the back of the bus? ELLIS: Yes. I' ; m not going to sit in the back any more. I was determined. HUNTLEY: So are there other experiences that reminded you and help you to determine that there was a need for a change that you may have encountered while either riding the bus or downtown? ELLIS: Yes. While being downtown, even while shopping, even if you were the first one in line, the salesperson was going to wait on that White person first. And when I was small I didn' ; t understand that. And as I got older, I kept going to town and going to town and I said, " ; Well, I was first." ; And they looked at you like you didn' ; t say anything. Back then if you were White, you were right and you were always first. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of at the time? ELLIS: During that time I was a member of the Rising Star Baptist Church in Rising. HUNTLEY: Was your church actively involved? Was your minister and other members of your church involved in the Movement? ELLIS: No. My minister wasn' ; t really actively involved. As a matter of fact I think he really was kind of hesitant about it. He was an older minister and I really think he was really hesitant about coming involved because of maybe what might would have happened to him or the church or something like that. HUNTLEY: Were there close friends of yours that were involved with you? ELLIS: Yes. I have several friends. I have one friend that' ; s deceased now. We marched all together and we went to jail together. Her name was Loretta Demis. And I remember Josephine, I' ; m trying to remember her last name. She integrated West End High School. It was Josephine Power, she' ; s dead now also. HUNTLEY: Did you ever consider being one of the first Black students to go into one of the white high schools? ELLIS: No. I didn' ; t ever think about that because to me, that would have been more pressure because my girlfriend, the one that went, she was a straight A student at Parker High school and when she went to West End High school, she made all Os. And she was very smart. HUNTLEY: Did she graduate from West End? ELLIS: Yes she did. But she wasn' ; t an honor student anymore, but she still finished. HUNTLEY: What did she do afterwards? ELLIS: Well, she left here and went to Chicago. She married and, then, she went to Chicago. HUNTLEY: Obviously those were turbulent times. Now you, at that time, were living in Roosevelt City, is that right? ELLIS: Yes. Well, when I first started marching I was living in Rising and, then, we moved to Roosevelt City. HUNTLEY: And from Roosevelt City you, of course, had to take the bus to school? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me about any experiences you may have had? ELLIS: Well, Roosevelt City wasn' ; t that bad because it was predominantly all Black community and you didn' ; t see too many Whites in that area. Maybe the few in that community had cars or whatever, but usually when I rode the Roosevelt City bus, I didn' ; t see too many Whites, but we would always go to the front. HUNTLEY: So you rode the public bus from Roosevelt to Parker? ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you have to transfer? Did you go through downtown? ELLIS: I would transfer downtown, yes. HUNTLEY: This particular time, in 1965, 64, of course, there are a number of things that are taking place. All this started in ' ; 63. The bombing of Sixteenth Street Baptist Church, do you remember that? ELLIS: Yes, I heard that bombing. During that time I think I was on Fountain Heights and we were getting ready to go to church. I was getting ready to go to New Pilgrim Church and we heard this loud noise and like our whole community was just shook. And I said, " ; I wonder what is it?" ; And, so, about 15 minutes later we saw something on the screen. " ; Sixteenth Street Baptist Church was bombed." ; And, so we got in our cars and we could only go so far. It was the most horrible sight I had ever seen, the destruction of the church and we stayed there until they brought the bodies out of those four little girls. It was horrible. HUNTLEY: That was an experience that I' ; m sure you' ; ll never forget. ELLIS: Yes, I' ; ll never forget that. By them being so young and so innocent and trying to serve the Lord and you couldn' ; t even go to church and be at peace. HUNTLEY: Did you know any of the children that were in the church? ELLIS: Well, I knew the fathers. I knew Claude Wesley was the principal of the school that I attended and Mr. Martin was a principal of a school that I had attended, and Mr. Martin never got over his child' ; s death. He didn' ; t live too much longer after that. HUNTLEY: What was the atmosphere like at the time? ELLIS: Everybody was mad. They just wanted to go out and just do anything. Whatever it took to get revenge. They were mad. As a matter of fact, I think I remember hearing some people say there was a lot of violence that went on that night after the bombing. HUNTLEY: After the bombing, actually prior to the bombing there was the March on Washington and, then, there was the bombing in September. The March on Washington in August, the bombing in September. In 1964 we had the passing of the Civil Rights Bill and many said it resulted from what took place in Birmingham. ELLIS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And this was a bill based upon public accommodations. Did you remember anything changing during that time? ELLIS: During that time I saw more Blacks hired at the banks. I saw more Blacks hired in stores. Usually when you went in the stores, the only way you would see anyone Black, they would be pushing a mop or either behind a soda fountain, you know, serving food or something like that. But as I went in the stores, I saw Black cashiers. At the bank I saw Blacks. I saw quite a bit of changes made, but what really disturbed me was when our people got these positions, how they changed so. HUNTLEY: How do you mean they changed? ELLIS: Well, I won' ; t say all of them. They weren' ; t courteous. They were very short with you, very impatient. HUNTLEY: Did you know any of the people that actually got positions in those stores downtown and, if so, were they active members in the Movement? ELLIS: As a matter of fact, I' ; m thinking all the ones that I really saw, I don\tllthirtiqey benefitted from it, but they didn' ; t march, no. They hadn' ; t been active at all. HUNTLEY: So those who were not active, seemingly benefitted? ELLIS: Yes, more than we did. HUNTLEY: If you had the opportunity, if you had the where with all to be able to change anything that you went through at that time, what would you change? ELLIS: What would I change? HUNTLEY: Yes. ELLIS: That was in the 60s? HUNTLEY: Yes. The way that the Movement was administered? ELLIS: Well, I think it was very well planned, very organized. As far as structure wise, I wouldn' ; t change anything because I think that non-violence was the best way. And prayer. The marching and the praying I think that was the best way because you can be loud and ignorant, that will not get anybody' ; s attention when you really want something. But if you do it in a way and you do it in the right way, I think you' ; ll get what you want. And just be firm about it and march and keep praying. HUNTLEY: If you were a parent in 1963 would you have allowed your child or children to participate? ELLIS: I was so protective of my daughter when she was born in 1967 I would probably say no. You know why? Because as a parent you always want to protect your child and the least little thing that would probably happen you would get so upset. So, what I went through, no, I wouldn' ; t want my child to go through it, no. I' ; m glad I was there to help pave the way. My daughter, I think reaped from some of the benefits because she went to Samford. And, that was in the 80s and during the 80s she told me she said that it wasn' ; t like she thought it was going to be. She thought it was going to be real prejudice and all of that and she said it wasn' ; t that bad. So I' ; m thinking by marching, I did help her some and others also. HUNTLEY: Have you made the attempt to pass this information on about your experiences in the demonstrations to your daughter? ELLIS: Yes. We used to sit down and talk about it and she said, " ; Well, mommy they hit you with the billy club and they put you in jail and your arm was open?" ; I said, " ; Yes, and I' ; ll never forget it." ; And she says, " ; Oh, I couldn' ; t have gone through all that. That' ; s so terrible." ; She would say it was so hard to believe that Birmingham was like that. She would say it was hard to believe Birmingham was like that considering the way that we are now, we could go anywhere. She said, " ; Oh, I wouldn' ; t have ever thought it." ; HUNTLEY: Finally, we' ; ve talked about any number of topics, a number of subjects, is there anything else you would like to add that we may not have talked about as extensively as you would like? If so, this is your opportunity. ELLIS: No. I think the only thing I would add is that A. G. Gaston was very fundamental during this time. He was the man who had the money. And, of course, he was the one who would always bail everyone out of jail and I think we should always recognize him in the Civil Rights Movement. And, that' ; s about it. I think basically all of this will never leave me. I will always remember all of these experiences and, then, when you have gone through all of this, it really makes you a much better person. It makes you appreciate what you have now and what you didn' ; t have. HUNTLEY: Is there any way to pass that on to the next generation. That appreciative feeling that you have about how you have succeeded and had an impact upon changing the system for the better? ELLIS: Yes. I think what I would say to anybody and as I talk about it sometime I always tell them that violence is not the way. Prayer and if we start marching again I think that that would help too. But I also think if we would stick together as a race and stop trying to down the other person, I think we would do much better. HUNTLEY: Mrs. Ellis, I want to thank you for coming today and we certainly do appreciate it. ELLIS: I really enjoyed it. HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. ELLIS: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ETEllis1995.xml ETEllis1995.xml
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Emily Thomas Ellis
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Emily Thomas Ellis discusses being arrested for participating in a sit-in at Newberry's department store. She was also injured in a large student march in 1963.
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19950712E
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department
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1995-07-12
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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bcriohp
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Horace Huntley
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Clyde Jones
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Mass meetings
Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights
NAACP
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5.4 June 1, 1995 Rev. Clyde Jones 19950601J 0:35:07 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department Mass meetings Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights NAACP Clyde Jones Horace Huntley Video 1:|9(3)|35(12)|64(10)|80(5)|102(8)|117(13)|133(1)|150(12)|171(10)|193(4)|213(12)|226(4)|245(9)|265(12)|276(9)|287(13)|306(2)|319(11)|347(7)|368(1)|388(12)|402(4)|420(4)|433(11)|453(1)|467(5)|481(1)|498(2)|510(12)|527(15)|546(7)|556(4)|568(15)|581(16) 0 https://youtu.be/5a6DhTcgp8g YouTube video English 42 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Reverend Clyde Jones for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Rev. Clyde Jones is introduced. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 58 Family Background I just want to start by asking you some general questions about your parents. Jones begins by stating he grew up in Birmingham with two younger sisters. His mother owned a restaurant located in North Birmingham on 26th Avenue around 24th St. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Business enterprises, Black ; Hokenville (Ga.) ; Lutherville (Ga.) African American families 145 Educational Background Tell me about your education. Jones compares the difference in his experience of Parker and Immaculata High Schools as the latter having more variety in education, but a harsher disciplinary policy. He states that his strongest memory of Parker High School was the quality of the football team during the time that Buck Buchannan played. African American athletes ; Buchannan, Junious ; Immaculata High School (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Parker High School (Birmingham, Ala.) African American children--Education 310 Serving in the Coast Guard Well, did you then, after you graduated from Immaculata, did you go right into the military? Jones recalls how after high school, he volunteered to serve in the Coast Guard for economic reasons to afford higher education. He served three years where he served aboard the SS John Gordon as well as a patrol boat in the Caribbean. GI Bill ; Military service, Voluntary ; United States. Coast Guard. Atlantic Area ; USS John Gordon United States. Coast Guard 453 Pursuit in Higher Education Like I said, I wanted to go to college, but I came about in a peculiar type way. Jones states that he went to Howard University to study political science and psychology before studying law at the New York School of Law. He then went into the Army to serve in the Korean War for four years, after which he returned to Birmingham. He also reveals that he went to Emory University later in his life. Emory University ; Howard University ; Howard University. Department of Political Science ; Korean War, 1950-1953 ; New York School of Law ; Political science ; Psychology ; United States--National Guard African American college students 632 Involvement in the NAACP and the Litigation Case Against the Birmingham Police Department So you are really returning to Birmingham at a time when the NAACP is probably the most active civil rights organization? Jones recounts how he became involved in litigation cases through the NAACP. One case he describes in detail is a litigation filed in 1956 against the Birmingham Police Department for not hiring African American police officers. Adams, Oscar W. ; Alford, W.F. ; Billingsley, Orzell ; Gardner, Edward, 1907-2006 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Voter registration Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; NAACP ; Trials, litigation, etc. 1184 Roles of African Americans in the Birmingham Police Department & ; His Personal Ministry In the meantime, the different officers, I mean the high ranking officers in the police department, they want me to in something like an undercover agent. Jones talks about how Black police officers were often assigned cases that required them to infiltrate, obtain, and report information, which was frowned upon in the community. Jones states that he forewent a police position that was offered to him in lieu of becoming a police chaplain in various police departments in the Birmingham area. Bessemer Police Department ; Jackson County Police Department ; Police chaplain ; Randolph County Police Department African American police ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department 1499 Mass Meetings & ; Demonstrations So you did attend the mass meetings? Jones describes how the mass meetings had to be held at different churches due to the presence of police and informants. He also discusses the various demonstrations that happened, and that his family supported his involvement in the demonstrations, though they themselves refrained from protesting. Freedom Rides, 1961 ; Mass meetings ; St. Paul's Methodist Church Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama 1808 Reflections on the Movement What were the benefits do you think your family and the community realized as a result of the Movement? Jones remarks that the Movement motivated other African Americans to participate in the Movement to improve their lives from their everyday struggles with discrimination. Civil rights movement Birmingham (Ala.) ; NAACP ; SCLC 2060 Conclusion of the Interview Well, I certainly do appreciate you taking the time out of your schedule to come up and sit with us. Conclusion of interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Oral History Rev. Clyde Jones discusses combatting discriminatory hiring practices by the Birmingham Police Department through litigation. He was involved with the NAACP before being outlawed. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Rev. Clyde Jones for the Birmingham Civil Rights lnstitute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 1, 1995. Thanks Rev. Jones for coming and being with us today. JONES: You are very welcome. HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking you some general questions about your parents. Where were your parents from? JONES: My parents were from Hokenville, Georgia, my father rather. And my mother was from a place called Lutherville, Georgia. HUNTLEY: Lutherville and what was the other? JONES: Hokenville. HUNTLEY: Hokenville, Georgia. Were you born in Birmingham? JONES: Yes. I was born here in Birmingham at the Old Hillman hospital which is now the University Hospital. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have older and younger than yourself? JONES: I have one sister, two sisters rather, younger than I am. HUNTLEY: So you are the oldest child? JONES: I am the oldest child, yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your parent' ; s education. JONES: Well, at the time they had limited education. My mother was a high school graduate and my father attended one year at Morris Brown in Atlanta. HUNTLEY: What were their occupations? JONES: Well, my father was a shipping clerk and my mother was a restaurant owner. HUNTLEY: She owned a restaurant? JONES: She owned a restaurant. HUNTLEY: Where was your restaurant located? JONES: It was located in a predominately Black section of North Birmingham on 26th Avenue about 24th Street I believe it was. HUNTLEY: Tell me about your education. Where did you start elementary school? JONES: I attended Lincoln Elementary School and I attended Parker High School and also lmmaculata High School and I had a three years at Howard University and I also attended Emory School of Divinity which is in Atlanta. HUNTLEY: You attended both Parker and lmmaculata? JONES: That is correct. HUNTLEY: Where did you graduate from? JONES: Immaculata High School. HUNTLEY: Why did you leave Parker to go to lmmaculata? JONES: Well, at the time, the education system at lmmaculata was a little bit better than Parker because we had a chance, you know, more or less, learn things like Latin and several foreign languages as opposed to Parker which only had Spanish. HUNTLEY: So you went for the languages. What did you do after high school? JONES: Well, after high school, I went into the U. S. Coast Guard. HUNTLEY: Tell me, just let me back up just a bit. What do you remember most about Parker as a student? JONES: Well, I remember the football team. They had an excellent football team. As amatter of fact, at that particular time, it was the top team in the state·. And I also remember a lot of the teachers, you know, how concerned they was, you know about the students anyway. They had a good relationship with the students. HUNTLEY: Were you at Parker the same time Buck Buchanan was there or were you just a little bit ahead of Buck? JONES: I think I was a little bit ahead of him. And I had an opportunity to meet his parents, you know, at a later date they were a member of Enon United Methodist Church, where I pastored both his father and mother. But I never did get a chance to meet him per se. HUNTLEY: How would you compare your experience at Parker versus that at lmmaculata? JONES: Well, it' ; s more discipline at lmmaculata. Of course, at that time they had discipline at Parker, too because they had the paddling system. HUNTLEY: Who was the principal at lmmaculata? JONES: Howard Johnson. HUNTLEY: So you had the same kind of discipline at both places? JONES: Right. But the only difference is at lmmaculata they would expel you and they would more or less put the fear of the Word of God into you. Because it was more or less, you know, religiously indoctrinated since it was a religious school. HUNTLEY: Well, did you then, after you graduated from lmmaculata did you go right into the military? JONES: I went right into the Coast Guard. HUNTLEY: How did you happen to go into the Coast Guard? JONES: Well, at that particular time, it was real hard and I thought that would be a way out to get education in view of the fact that they had this GI Bill to write, where it is, you know, you enter the service, you could almost get a complete college education and beyond if you went into the service. So it was a way for me at that particular time. Because with the economical status of my parents, you know, I couldn' ; t have the opportunity probably to go to college. HUNTLEY: Well, why the Coast Guard rather than the Army or the Navy? JONES: Well, the Coast Guard is a part of the armed service during the war and as a matter of fact it stayed during the peace time, its under the Treasury Department. But I had an opportunity to serve aboard a U. S. John Gordon which I made about eight trips across the Atlantic and back. You know, bringing troops. To carry troops back and forth. And I also had an opportunity to serve on a patrol Coast Guard boat down in the Caribbean and other places. HUNTLEY: So did you get that opportunity based upon your experience in high school? Did somebody direct you to the Coast Guard? JONES: No. Myself and another friend, we were walking down 5th Avenue. At that time the Coast Guard station was in the federal post office building and we saw this sign, " ; We Want You." ; And I was teasing with my buddy, I said, " ; Well, this is us, let' ; s go in and see about it." ; So we went in and, of course , really you' ; re supposed to be eighteen but I persuaded my parents to sign for me in order to go in which they reluctantly did. But we went on in anyway. HUNTLEY: And so how long did you spend in the Coast Guard? JONES: We spent about three years. HUNTLEY: Three years. And what did you do after you were discharged? JONES: Well, we went on. Like I said I wanted to go to college but I came about in a peculiar type way I met this girl, she was attending Howard. And she enticed me to come to Howard, you know, in Washington. HUNTLEY: So is that the girl that you married eventually? JONES: No. Eventually, everything seemed to break down after I got there. You know, we stayed friends for about six or seven months and after that, the garden was so beautiful, I couldn' ; t see for looking. HUNTLEY: So you were there for three years? What were you pursuing? JONES: Well, I was majoring in political science and I had a minor in psychology. HUNTLEY: What was D. C. like? JONES: Well, D.C. was calm at that particular time. You didn' ; t have all these different drug warfare like you have now. And it was relatively calm. It was peaceful. You could walk down Georgia Avenue without any type of fear of being mugged or robbed. And it was a beautiful place at that time to live. HUNTLEY: Did you live on campus? JONES: I lived on campus, yes. HUNTLEY: And after you left Howard, where did you go? JONES: I went to New York. There I got involved, at the National Guard there and also went to, had one year of law school at New York School of Law, too. HUNTLEY: So then how long were you in New York? JONES: I was there about, just a little over a year. Just a little over a year until the Korean War broke out and I went to Korea. HUNTLEY: Did you go back into the Coast Guard? JONES: I didn' ; t go back into the Coast Guard, I went into the Army. HUNTLEY: How long were you in the Army this time? JONES: Well, I stayed in there approximately about four years. HUNTLEY: So when did you come out? JONES: I came out somewhere around the neighborhood of ' ; 56 or ' ; 57. HUNTLEY: Did you return to Birmingham? JONES: I did, yes. HUNTLEY: Now you went to Emory, right? JONES :Yes. That was at a much later date. That was in the 70s when I went to Emory. HUNTLEY: So what did you do when you came back to Birmingham? JONES: Well, I had various, jobs. I did substitute teaching and I worked as a shipping clerk, where my father worked and in the meantime I married and I had a family to support. HUNTLEY: So you are really returning to Birmingham at a time when the NAACP is probably the most active civil rights organization? JONES: That is correct. HUNTLEY: Were you involved with them at all? JONES: Yes. I have always been a member of the NAACP. And when the Southern Christian Movement came out I became involved with them through Rev. Shuttlesworth. HUNTLEY: Right. What did you actually do as a result of your membership with the NAACP? JONES: Well, really the NAACP was more or less involved in litigations. At the particular time it wasn' ; t like marches, per se until the Southern Christian. HUNTLEY: What about voter registrations? JONES: Voter registration that was a prime fact. That was one of the main problems we had at a particular time. Black folk were denied the right to vote and they had to take an oral examination and they had them poll taxes and different other things to discourage them from voting. So the main thrust of the NAACP was, voter registration. HUNTLEY: In 1956 the State of Alabama outlawed the NAACP from operating in the State of Alabama. Were you actively involved at that time? JONES: Yes, sir. HUNTLEY: And we know as a result of that, the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized. Were you one of the charter members of the organization of the Alabama Christian Movement? JONES: Well, I wouldn' ; t say a charter member. But I was one of the first, in the particular group that really, signed up for it. HUNTLEY: That got the Movement going? JONES: Yes. I remember the day that I was over to Rev. Shuttlesworth office when he was pastoring over in North Birmingham and I don' ; t think he had met, Dr. Martin Luther King at that particular time. He said, " ; I got a letter here from Dr. King, about, the it was two separate groups. Actually there was a Montgomery faction and the Birmingham faction about them merging with each. HUNTLEY: The MIA from the Montgomery and the Alabama Christian Movement? JONES: Right. HUNTLEY: And eventually started the SCLC in ' ; 57? JONES: Right. HUNTLEY: You were one of the litigants in a case against the police department? JONES: That is correct. HUNTLEY: Can you sort of explain what that was about? JONES: It was planned that Rev. Shuttlesworth and Rev. Gardner and Rev. Alford and several more ministers at that particular time. We had set up a time to go to the Jefferson County Personnel Board to apply for the police department. We had agreed that we would go through with it. And we went and I never would forget. It was kind of hot. I forgot what month it was in, but anyway it was relatively hot at that particular time and we went there, so it was TV people there. Channel 13 and I believe Channel 6. So they gave us the application, to fill out and so, we took the application back home and filled it out and sent it back in and then I received a letter from the Jefferson County Personnel Board that we wasn' ; t qualified. Both Johnson and myself did. HUNTLEY: Who was the other person? JONES: George Johnson, Rev. Johnson now. That we wasn' ; t qualified. So I began and looked at my expertise within the police field. I had been in charge of the investigation section of the military, 212 military police in Inchon, Korea at the age of about 22. And I also served with the 519 military police group when they integrated, you know that particular unit. And I was in the first CID criminal investigation division down at Ft. Goins, Georgia. And I said, " ; Something has got to be wrong." ; And I saw lessor White persons were on duty with little or no education and so I knew then there was something wrong somewhere. HUNTLEY: Did you make the determination that you wanted to be a member of the police department or were you drafted by Shuttlesworth and the Movement? JONES: Well, we discussed it. They wanted me to be a test case to be frank about it. To see about getting them. Because all the other surrounding cities had it and while I am on that particular note I had already passed the test in Montgomery, police test in Montgomery and I had passed it with a high score. About 99 out of a 100 and also I had passed the test for the Washington police department, Washington D. C. police department and I also made 99. HUNTLEY: But you decided not to take it? JONES: Yes. I was doing it more or less, to make a test of the system. HUNTLEY: Why would you take it in Montgomery? Did you live in Montgomery? JONES: No. I did it out of self-satisfaction. You know to see what it was about. To test my knowledge. HUNTLEY: Was this prior to your taking it in Birmingham? JONES: That is correct, yes.I remember Captain Gant in Montgomery. He told me he said, " ; Well, we want you to stay on with us if you decide to come aboard." ; But I said, " ; I don' ; t know whether they are going to start hiring them in Birmingham pretty soon." ; And at that particular time it was so many loop holes in the Montgomery police department. They had the Blacks working at night like from 11 at night to 7 in the morning. And they could only arrest Blacks and they could only hold a White person until a White officer arrived, but you could see a White person committing a felony crime, you just couldn' ; t go over and apprehend him regardless of what he was doing under that type of system. HUNTLEY: You would simply have to wait until a White officer arrived? JONES: That is correct. And like one of my friends told me that, you know, that got on. He said that one night some White guys was robbing a service station and they parked on the other side and said the only thing that they could do was stand and look at that, and they got away. They radioed in and the lieutenant came in there and said, " ; What did y' ; all do, just stand there and look?" ; And they said, " ; That' ; s the only thing we could do, we couldn' ; t arrest them, they was White and that was our instructions." ; HUNTLEY: But there were Black policemen they just didn' ; t have the authority? JONES: That' ; s right. Then they had them going in at late hours, midnight hours to almost early morning. HUNTLEY: So as a result of you having made very high marks in both Washington, D. C., and Montgomery, you decided then to take the test in Birmingham? And you wanted the job in Birmingham? JONES: Right. HUNTLEY: But you received a letter saying that you were not qualified? JONES: Right. HUNTLEY: Then what happened? JONES: They we got our attorneys which was Orzell Billingsley and lawyer Adams who was a former member of the Alabama Supreme Court. HUNTLEY: Oscar Adams. JONES: Oscar Adams. They pursued the case through the federal system because we knew we couldn' ; t win in the state courts at that particular time because they were highly prejudice. HUNTLEY: What was the outcome? JONES: Well, they ruled later on in favor that, you know, the City of Birmingham must hire Black police officers. HUNTLEY: Now this, you initially filed the suit about 1956. The first policeman, Black policeman was not hired in Birmingham to about 1966. JONES: Right. About ten years. HUNTLEY: And was that as a result of the suit? Did the suit take that long? JONES: Right. Because they kept fighting it back and forth until finally we got a favorable decision after all that time. In the meantime, the different officers, I mean the high ranking officers in the police department, they want me Jo come in something like an undercover agent, you know, an investigator and everything. And so I told them I wasn' ; t for that. And I told them it ain' ; t nothing but a high class snitch. Either I be in uniform or they forget it. HUNTLEY: So they did offer you what was termed a snitch position. I know in the Black community you looked at those individuals as snitches. JONES: Right. HUNTLEY: But you refused that? JONES: Right. And they told me, " ; You would have a badge. You would have the power of arrest, you know on the case that you' ; re on." ; I said, " ; I am not that kind of person. I' ; m either on board, or I' ; m not." ; HUNTLEY: Do you have any idea how many Black men were in fact, those kind of investigators? JONES: It was quite a number. HUNTLEY: I know as I grew up here in Birmingham there was one that worked out in our area. JONES: Right. They did a lot of work, some of them had jobs like security officers and some of them had regular jobs. But still, in their off duty time they would infiltrate, you know, the bootleggers houses and things like that and pass on information. HUNTLEY: Were you ever hired as a police officer? Did you ever get the job? JONES: Well, really, I guess the Good Lord must have been in the plan, because I got something better later on because I served as the chaplain with the Jackson County Sheriff' ; s Department and I served as the police chaplain at the Bessemer Police Department and I served as associate police chaplain at the Birmingham Police Department for three years and now I am currently the chaplain for the Randolph County Sheriff Department. HUNTLEY: But in 1956 when the first policeman were hired, were you still available to take the position a t that point? JONES: No. I began to start pursuing a ministerial course. It seemed like within myself I had that particular calling deep down, but I was trying to fight it. HUNTLEY: So you were going into the ministry at that time? JONES: Right. And I thought about going back to law school. Going back to Washington and going to law school and so I was kind of debating, you know, in my mind, fighting within myself, what course I must take. So whereas I didn' ; t become a lawyer, I had a son and he became one. HUNTLEY: Right.Clyde Jones, Jr. JONES: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you get involved in the Movement as a result of your attempt to become a police officer? JONES: No. I was really in it even before my attempt to become a police officer. Because I had seen the way that Blacks were being treated. I remember one time I had a job too, as a bondsman over here at the city jail at the Harlem Bonding company. And W. L. Williams, Jr. and I, who is an attorney there now, ran this particular company. It was White owned, but we Blacks were more or less fronting it at that particular time. And we would go to jail and see how Black people were just beaten, just for nothing. I remember one time a Black guy, I think up north, somewhere around in Detroit or Cleveland came in there and said he had some White girls pictures on him and they beat him unmerciful. HUNTLEY: So you and W. L. Williams ran this particular bonding company? JONES: Right. I sure did. HUNTLEY: How long did you do that? JONES: I did that, if my memory serve me correctly, it was about 2-3 years, something like that. HUNTLEY: So did you have the bonding company during the Movement period, during the demonstrations and all? JONES: Again, if my memory serve me correctly, I was participating in it, because I remember I was working shifts from 8-3, 3-11 and I believe I took that 11-7 shift so I could participate in it. HUNTLEY: What role did you play in the Alabama Christian Movement? JONES: Well really, only just as a supporter. You know, I would just attend the meetings and whatever, would be planned by the person in charge, I would participate in it, you know. HUNTLEY: So you did attend the mass meetings? JONES: Yes. I did. And we also was in the picket lines, also, too. HUNTLEY: Can you describe what the typical mass meeting was like? JONES: It was very emotional and it could only be held in a Black church because that was the only place that was open to them at that particular time. And a person had a chance to speak their mind without any kind of reprisal against them, you know, with their own kind. And also that they were plagued by the White police at a particular time. They would park maybe about 2-3 three blocks away from the church and in different directions and they would stop, the participants, on some minor charge. You know, they would say they were speeding or they didn' ; t stop at a stop sign, just a lot of things like that to harass them, to discourage them from attending. HUNTLEY: Were police officers present at the meetings? JONES: Yes. They would stand on the outside. They would have their informers in there. You know, that' ; s one of the things we talked about earlier. They would have the informers who had a first hand report within a minutes after the meeting was over. And plus, the fact that the police themselves, the White establishment they would be, you know just about have the church surrounded. So to help suppress some of that, the meeting was held at different churches. Sometimes it would be at 16th Street Church, St. Paul, Sardis Baptist and they would do a number of other churches. You know, Fairfield First, and in order, to help put the people q11 guard so to speak. HUNTLEY: Right. You said that you did picket different places? JONES: Oh yes. Well, we picketed the bus station, the Greyhound bus station. We picketed, I believe it was Newberry' ; s Department store and several other minor incidents and things. HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested? JONES: No. I never did get arrested. HUNTLEY: In 1960 the sit-in demonstrations started. Well they were actually initiated in North Carolina and of course, they were sit-ins eventually here. In ' ; 61 the Freedom Riders came through. What do you remember about that period? JONES: Oh, I remember how they were beaten brutally at the bus station. What happened, only law enforcement Blacks really trusted in at a particular time was during the FBI and they would tell the FBI that we have some Freedom Riders, you know, from coming in from North Carolina and they would tell the city police and the city police would be at the bus station to beat them and there would be a ruckus, you know, whereas the civil rights riders would be beaten and molested in a very cruel type way. HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate in the demonstrations? JONES: They didn' ; t particularly play active roles because most of them had the fear of losing their jobs in that particular time. But, you know, I had always been a type of person, I said, " ; If it' ; s going to happen, it' ; s going to happen. And we can' ; t live like this forever in this type of environment." ; And so I didn' ; t even fear for my life at that particular time, I would, sacrifice it. HUNTLEY: How did others in your family react to your participation? JONES: They were more or less fearful of me that I might get hurt. And they were glad I was doing what I was doing, but there was some kind of little remorse about, you know, the fear of getting hurt. HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of at the time? JONES: I was a member of St. Paul' ; s United Methodist Church on 15th Street and about 6th Avenue. HUNTLEY: And was your church actively involved? JONES: I think one or two meetings were held there and some where they got fearful that the church was going to be bombed. That was prior to 16th Street Church getting bombed and so I think they kind of voted within themselves, you know, not to have any more meetings there. HUNTLEY: What were the benefits do you think your family and the community realized as a result of the Movement? JONES: Let' ; s see. What benefits as a result of the Movement? HUNTLEY: Yes, sir. JONES: Well, the only thing I could see would be motivation. And it occurred to them that it was going to be a better day or if I' ; m focusing in on your question right. It would be a better day by them participating in those different boycotts and picketing and etc. HUNTLEY: Right. Is there anything else you would like to add that we have not dealt with in relationship to the development of the Movement and the history of Birmingham? JONES: Well, I would like to add, I wish as I look around today, and see how Blacks are killing up each other, if they could see the long struggle. I like to use this word, it was " ; Pure-0 -Hell" ; back in those days because a Black man was last to be hired and the first one to be fired. And when he went into a department store, he had a separate water fountain to drink out of. And sometimes he had no restroom. If they did, it was a bi-sex restroom, which was Pizitz. And also when he rode on a train, he had to sit in separate, segregated cars. He rode the bus, he had to sit in the back of the bus. And if you go to the counter to get something to eat, you had to stand there at the end of the counter and almost plead to get a sandwich or a coke. And after all the Whites had been waited on, then they would get around to waiting on you. And the police could arrest a person at random. In other words, a Black person would be sent to prison whereas a White person wouldn' ; t even be brought into question on. And the court system was rotten too. Asmatter of fact, I remember when one lawyer friend of mine, he attended Howard too because he was in law school when I was an undergrad. But they couldn' ; t even go to sit in the bar. They couldn' ; t even use the law library, for research work. They had a case like Whites did. And so, it was just " ; pure-d-hell" ; at a particular time anyway. Some people call it the good old days, but I don' ; t see nothing good about it. HUNTLEY: So the Movement then of course, was developed to clear up all of these things? JONES: Right. It would be the force behind Blacks, you know, having a better day because they were living in turmoil. And plus when you ride the street cars, and I would like to add, if we got time. I never will forget one time it was kind of comical. I guess I must have been around 11 or 12 and they had these old yellow street cars used to run from downtown to Ensley and so I didn' ; t believe in signs. So my friend we took one of those segregated signs off and threw it out the window. And so the conductor saw us and they put us off the street car in East Thomas. It was a hot day too. So we had to walk all the way from East Thomas to Smithfield. So I said, we are going to have to get him some kind of way. And so I remember my dad bought me one of these Red Rider BB guns and so we put some rocks on the street car tracks and so we knew about the time this conductor came around because the street car ran in front of my house. They got over the bend and we let loose with that B B gun. He cussed and everything. You know, Black folk always had a way, you know, doing something, to let the Whites know they resented the way they were being treated at that particular time. HUNTLEY: Reaction against the system of segregation? JONES: Right. Even during slavery time, they had some ways to get around it. HUNTLEY: Well, I certainly do appreciate you taking the time out of your schedule to come up and sit with us. And we will get you a copy of this and let you look through it. JONES: All right. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=CJones1995.xml CJones1995.xml
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Rev. Clyde Jones
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Rev. Clyde Jones discusses combatting discriminatory hiring practices by the Birmingham Police Department through litigation. He was involved with the NAACP before being outlawed.
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19950601J
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department
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1995-06-01
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109517a6cd3752313134bae025645246
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Betty Hanson
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Abraham Woods Jr.
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AWoods1998.xml
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March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.)
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5.4 April 30, 1998 Rev. Abraham Woods Jr. 19980430W 2:01:49 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexers: Anna Wallace, Alexandra Smith Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) Abraham Woods Jr. Betty Hanson Video 1:|12(14)|25(2)|35(1)|46(6)|60(2)|72(17)|89(1)|99(4)|111(3)|122(5)|140(10)|161(12)|179(1)|186(17)|204(6)|219(2)|233(1)|244(5)|256(8)|265(11)|274(10)|286(2)|296(7)|308(11)|319(10)|329(14)|343(1)|356(11)|365(2)|382(7)|389(17)|401(16)|411(16)|423(13)|441(4)|454(5)|466(4)|477(8)|490(9)|501(3)|520(3)|529(12)|537(13)|548(11)|558(8)|567(7)|579(7)|582(7)|593(4)|600(3)|614(9)|629(13)|639(10)|647(10)|660(2)|667(3)|676(9)|683(2)|693(4)|701(1)|712(1)|722(16)|741(6)|750(5)|761(6)|771(4)|785(2)|797(1)|804(4)|811(14)|822(5)|836(6)|846(10)|855(4)|863(7)|869(2)|880(9)|893(15)|899(6)|909(14)|919(11)|930(1)|949(1)|963(7)|971(2)|982(2)|993(12)|1001(16)|1014(12)|1025(5)|1036(5)|1051(1)|1065(7)|1077(15)|1090(1)|1093(5)|1103(3)|1112(14)|1123(4)|1135(4)|1146(16)|1158(4)|1170(1)|1182(9)|1192(3)|1202(10)|1212(5)|1225(7)|1233(10)|1248(9)|1257(5)|1267(6)|1274(10)|1287(7)|1298(9)|1310(1)|1320(8)|1328(12)|1339(10)|1348(1)|1355(11) 0 https://youtu.be/Q1JOee1ndx8 YouTube video English 0 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with the Rev. Abraham Woods, Jr. for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute’s Oral History Project. I’m Betty Lee Hanson and I’m the interviewer. We’re recording it at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute on April 30, 1998. Reverend Abraham Woods in introduced. Oral history Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 19 Family Background Let’s talk about those early years, Rev. Woods in growing up in Birmingham. You spent all your early years growing up...Did I read that your father was from Pratt City? Tell me a little about that. Rev. Woods explains how he and all of his siblings are named after American Presidents ; he is named after his father, also Abraham Lincoln Woods. He also details his parents' educational and work background. DuBois, WEB ; East Thomas ; McWane Pipe Company ; Pratt City Lincoln, Abraham, 1809-1865--Views on slavery, [Views on temperance, etc.] 500 Interest in Black History & ; Educational Background Was it because you had his name that made you interested in history, too? Or was it something you got from your family? Rev. Woods details how taking a course called Negro Makers of History in high school led to his drive to be successful and an awareness of how Blackness affected his life. High School ; Parker High School African American history 702 The Emotional Toll of Social Segregation & ; Discrimination Then, there came a time when you couldn’t play with them anymore, right? Was that typical? Rev. Woods details the process of being able to play with white kids while young, but being separated once they got older. He goes on to discuss the hurt and anger that resulted from segregation. Anger ; Parker High School ; Police African Americans--Segregation ; Jim Dandy 1233 Higher Education Experiences & ; Brown vs. Board of Education After I finished school, I announced to them that I was going to go to college. So, I went to Morehouse. While at Morehouse, I came under the influence of Dr. Benjamin Mays. Morehouse gave me a tuition scholarship. Of course, I made plans to attend and of course, I received a letter from them saying that “we have accepted you and we’re giving you a tuition scholarship with the conditions that you continue to make a ‘B’ average, but we do not have dormitory space for you.” Rev. Woods details his educational journey and the community reaction to the ruling of Brown vs. Board fo Education. Daniel Payne College ; Miles College ; Plessy versus Ferguson Brown versus Board of Education of Topeka ; Mays, Benjamin E. (Benjamin Elijah), 1894-1984 ; Morehouse College (Atlanta, Ga.) 1613 Working at McWane Pipe Shop After I left Morehouse I went to work at the company where my father worked. Rev. Woods discusses working at McWane Pipe Shop, getting badly burned and then moving on to become a janitor as to avoid similar work. McWane Pipe Shop ; Phoenix Building Coal ash ; Manual labor 2008 Atlanta Life Insurance Company I eventually quit, because I wanted to go back to school. I took a job with Atlanta Life Insurance Company. I worked as a Life underwriter for a number of years. Rev. Woods explains that he went on to work as a life underwriter at Atlanta Life Insurance Company. It was there that he was called to ministry. Black owned businesses ; Daniel Payne College ; Ministry Atlanta Life Insurance Company ; Miles College 2167 The Importance of Work Ethic & ; Religion We are going to do that. I want two things. These are fascinating stories. Where did you get your work ethic? Rev. Woods explains how he got his work ethic from his father and the Church. College Hills ; East Thomas ; Work ethic Domestic work 2366 Meeting & ; Working with Fred Shuttlesworth For example, when did you meet Fred Shuttlesworth? When did you start all that? Rev. Woods details how he began working closely with Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth as a Vice-President of the ACMHR after the NAACP was outlawed in 1956. Johnson, Bernice ; NAACP ; Sardis Baptist Church ; Voter registration Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 2790 Committing to Non-Violence in the Movement How did you buy into non-violence when other people were willing to use violence? What made you buy into non-violence with all these human emotions you are experiencing? Rev. Woods explains how he and Rev. Shuttlesworth modeled their non-violent methods off of Dr. Martin Luther King's efforts in Montgomery. Miles Hawkins school ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Non-violence King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 ; Tallahassee (Fla.) 3133 Facing Death with Fred Shuttlesworth There were deaths happening to a lot of Negroes and some Whites that dared stand up. How did you get the courage to accept death as a possibility for what you were doing, Rev. Woods? Rev. Woods describes being inspired by Rev. Shuttlesworth to face potential violence with courage and strength. That courage led him to drive look out for Rev. Shuttlesworth during his attempt to integrate Phillips High School. Courage ; Phillips High School Bomb threats ; Integration ; Violence 3595 Riding First Class on the Bus Nobody’s with me. I’m a first class citizen. One morning I decided I was going to ride first class on the bus. They didn’t arrest me when we rode... Rev. Woods explains his decision to and actions during a Birmingham bus sit-in. He successfully and safely rode the bus to his destination while sitting next to an angry white man. Bus Sit-in Discrimination in municipal services ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 3904 Registering to Vote Let me ask you about when you registered to vote for the first time. How did that come about? These are very momentous things. Rev. Woods details how he helped get the community registered to vote by preparing them for the the extensive poll tests. He passed on the first try. Miles College ; Poll test Conner, Bull ; Voter registration 4045 Death Threats Rev. Woods, lets go back to that time. You said you got your courage, A: watching Fred Shuttlesworth and seeing his and then testing it yourself. How far would that courage have extended, you think, if your wife and your children had been [inaudible]? And were they? Rev. Woods describes how his family was treated, but Rev. Lamar Weaver was the main target as white ally to the Movement at the time. Boutwell ; SCLC ; Weaver, Lamar Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Vann, David 4267 Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Comes to Birmingham So, now these things have happened. Shuttlesworth is working with you and several other people independently. What turned the tide and what made King decide to come to Birmingham? Rev. Woods details his experience with Dr. King speaking at the SCLC convention before being assaulted by an agitated white man. Drew, Deenie ; SCLC ; Walker, Wyatt Tee King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 4482 Teaching at Miles College & ; the Role of Dr. Lucius Pitts I finished Miles in the spring of ‘62 and I asked Dr. Pitts for a job and he gave me a job. Rev. Woods describes how he came to work with Dr. Lucius Pitts while he taught at Miles College. Dr. Pitts was one of Dr. King's advisors and Movement planning commonly took place in his office. Bible Education ; Conner, Bull ; Pitts, Lucius ; Voter education Miles College ; NAACP ; Reese, Carlton 5013 The Bombing of 16th St. Baptist Church, Demonstrations, and Jail 1963, obviously the bombing of the church. Do you think that changed everything? Or had it started because of the march in Washington first? Rev. Woods tells his perspective on what led to the 16th Street Church Bombing. He specifically details the sit-in at Loveman's lunch counter and his experience being jailed as a result. Hooper City ; Loveman's ; Lunch counter sit-in ; Newberry's 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Birmingham City Jail 5545 The Use of Children During the Movement How did you feel about taking the children? Rev. Woods describes how he did not know children would be involved in demonstrations, but he believes their arrests were an important tipping point in the Movement. 1963 ; Birmingham City Jail ; Hamilton, Hershel African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Children's Crusade ; Children's March 5943 Violence & ; Counter-Movements After that. It wasn’t going to be till August, the march on Washington. The bombing of Sixteenth Street was in September. We were going to [inaudible]. We went through some turbulent things. Rev. Woods details the tension and anger folks opposed to the Movement felt after the successes of the Selective Buying Campaign and demonstrations. He gives accounts of various events that lead to Birmingham's nickname, Bombingham. Bombings--Alabama ; Ku Klux Klan 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 6579 The March on Washington What brought about the decision to march on Washington? Rev. Woods recounts the moving experience of attending the March on Washington. Demonstration Jackson, Mahalia, 1911-1972 ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968. I have a dream ; March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) 6974 16th Street Church Bombing The sick minded folk, the Klan, was not going to let us rejoice. They decided that they would show us, that they would pull the ultimate of horror out of their book. This is when the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church was bombed on the 15th. Rev. Woods describes hearing the Sixteenth Street Church Bombing and arriving to the scene shortly after. Bombing ; Dynamite 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; Ku Klux Klan 7120 Resulting Anger, Violence and Police Brutality When I left there feeling bad, I went down toward my car and there was a group of Black young men with piles of rocks. Every car that passed with a White face they were throwing rocks. Rev. Woods describes the interpersonal violence and police brutality that ensued after the Sixteenth Street Church Bombing in 1963. Police brutality--United States ; Virgil Ware Sixteenth Street Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) Oral History Rev. Abraham Woods Jr. discusses working in Birmingham before working closely with Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth as a vice-president of ACMHR. He drove Rev. Shuttlesworth during the attempt to integrate Phillips High School, participated in bus sit-ins and attended the March on Washington. HANSON: This is an interview with the Rev. Abraham Woods, Jr. for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I' ; m Betty Lee Hanson and I' ; m the interviewer. We' ; re recording it at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute on April 30, 1998. I still keep thinking that we should be earlier then this but 1948, or something. The time is going too fast. Let' ; s talk about those early years, Rev. Woods in growing up in Birmingham. You spent all your early years growing up...Did I read that your father was from Pratt City? Tell me a little about that. WOODS: Well, my father is a native of the city. I don' ; t think we said Pratt City, because we grew up a number of years in what is called East Thomas there. Of course, we moved to other places in East Thomas, but East Thomas was the place where I was born, where I went to the elementary school and where I grew up. HANSON: Your name, interestingly enough, is Abraham Lincoln Woods, Jr. WOODS: Well... HANSON: Explain that to me. How did your father come up with...WOODS: My father' ; s name is Abraham Lincoln Woods. His name was Abraham Nathan at first. He changed it to Lincoln and, of course, my mother named me after him. I was the first son and the first child. So, she named me after my father. However, after that, it appeared that she became somewhat infatuated with Presidents, because all of her boys were named after Presidents. Calvin, of course, was named after Calvin Coolidge. I said, my mother really didn' ; t know history, because she would have known that Calvin Coolidge had some responsibility in the Great Depression. There' ; s another one of her sons she named Frank after Franklin Roosevelt. There' ; s another one she named Dwight. There is a brother who didn' ; t get the Presidential name and he was our first brother to finish college, get his Masters Degree and then go on to the University of Wisconsin and get his Doctorate. When he was born, we asked my mother, " ; what would he be named?" ; She said, " ; Well, I don' ; t feel well. You all name him." ; And Calvin, my younger brother, to me has always been quicker of the lip than I was, so, he said, " ; let' ; s name him Roy." ; We were at that time, we often went to see the western cowboys. Calvin' ; s favorite western cowboy was Roy Rogers. So, he named him Roy and my mother consented to that. So, he' ; s the only one that was not named after a President. We joke about it. I said, " ; Calvin I didn' ; t like you naming him Roy, but maybe I should be thankful you didn' ; t name him Trigger." ; (Laughing) My mother, I think in the fact that she named us after Presidents wanted us to be somebody. I think that was her way of saying to us, " ; I want you to amount to something. I want you to accomplish something." ; HANSON: That' ; s interesting. Your father was a minister, but that certainly wasn' ; t a high paying position. Certainly it wasn' ; t in those days. Did he work at something else at the same time? WOODS: Yes, even before he became a minister he worked at McWane Pipe Company, over in Norwood. He worked there for many years. Even after he had been called into the ministry and started pastoring a small church, he continued to work there, because the church was not able to pay the kind of salary that he could just do that and take care of his family. HANSON: Did your mother work? WOODS: My mother did not have a job outside of the home, but when we were growing up, she took in washing and ironing. I' ; ll never forget she took in washing and ironing from some of the White people in the community. Especially certain White families. I would go over and get the dirty clothes in my wagon and bring them back. She would wash them and not only wash them, but she would iron them. I would carry them back. The pay for all of those clothes was 50¢. HANSON: How did you feel about that? Did it color anything... WOODS: Well, we thought 50¢, you know, was very valuable to us at that time. I guess what we were really more interested in, whenever mother would wash the clothes and iron them...I carried them back and bring the 50¢ back. She would buy ginger bread and she would share the ginger bread with all of the children. I guess we looked more forward to the ginger bread. You could get ginger bread for a nickel, a great big ginger bread. That would go a long way with all the children. So, we were more interested in that, as far as the washing and ironing was concerned than we were what the pay was. I guess at that time we were not mature enough to make comparisons about how little she was getting for how much work she was doing. HANSON: Let me go back a minute. You said, all of your brothers were named after Presidents, except the one, Roy. Those were all White heroes. WOODS: Absolutely. HANSON: Talk about that just a little bit would you, Rev. Woods? Because you, of course, being active in the civil rights movement that comes later but how come all Whites? Weren' ; t there heroes in your own life...W. E. B. Dubois. Why, for example, were there no Blacks? WOODS: Well, my mother, undoubtedly, was not to knowledgeable about them. I imagine she knew about Booker T. Washington and maybe W. E. B. Dubois. I' ; m not sure. I never heard her talk about them. So, these were the people that stood out as great leaders and outstanding men. Of course, Abraham Lincoln, the 16th President of the United States, certainly has gone down in history as the President that embraced African-Americans. Of course, the Emancipation Proclamation was given by Lincoln. However, as a student of history I know that Lincoln said, " ; That if I can save the Union by keeping slavery, I' ; ll do that and if I can save the Union by getting rid of slavery, I' ; ll do that." ; It became a strategically necessary for Lincoln to get rid of slavery. So, he issued the Emancipation Proclamation. He has gone down in history as the President that befriended Negroes at that time. Of course, you know, the South was afraid that if he became elected President that he was going to free the slaves. South Carolina jumped out a little after he was elected. However, Lincoln couldn' ; t have done that unless he had the support and backing of those other politicians that was around him. HANSON: Was it because you had his name that made you interested in history, too? Or was it something you got from your family? WOODS: Well, what got me interested in history and certainly the history of African-Americans was the fact that when I was in high school, I was enrolled in a course called Negro Makers of History. I' ; ll never forget that course. It was a course where we used the book by [inaudible] Woodson. That course was an eye opener to me. As a result of that course, I became very proud to be an African-American. My self-esteem increased because I was thinking that in order to accomplish, in order to be successful, in order to be anybody you had to be White, because that' ; s what we saw around us. The policemen were White. HANSON: Everything was White. WOODS: The firemen were White. People in outstanding leadership positions were White, this sort of thing. So, until I enrolled in that course and matriculated in that class it was [inaudible] to me. I came to recognize that being Black, I still could attain, I could achieve. So, this Black History course really was one of the greatest factors in my life that really caused me to be proud. It caused me to know that if I put forth the effort, that as a Black man that I could achieve. Also, that there were people who put forth efforts to better the condition of Negroes, or African- Americans. So, I was really helped by that course. HANSON: Did you have any contacts with Whites at all? Now you were a student leader at Miles, pardon me, at Parker High School. You were President, I believe, of the... WOODS: Student Government. HANSON: Student Government, right. WOODS: That is correct. HANSON: Did you have any other contact with any of the other schools, Phillips, Ramsay, some of these other schools that were all White schools? WOODS: To my knowledge, at that time, we did not. I don' ; t remember ever having any contact with White students. Of course, you know, separation and segregation was the order of the day. There were laws. HANSON: The laws were very strenuous. WOODS: Against the races mixing and that sort of thing. HANSON: So, there was no kind of cross communication at all? WOODS: To my knowledge, I can not remember, not in the school setting. Of course, growing up as boys we played with some White children and they played with us. My grandmother worked for them and they were the people my mother washed clothes for, but we played with them. HANSON: Then, there came a time when you couldn' ; t play with them anymore, right? Was that typical? WOODS: Well, when they got older, you know. Of course, when we got older, we went our way and they went there way. HANSON: Let me ask you a question here, because it' ; s always puzzled me a little bit coming down into the south. Is it very often when that division comes with kids playing together...there' ; s a commonality, fun, a joyful time together and then there comes a time when you have to stop calling the White fellow Tom. According to the books I' ; ve read, it has to be Mr. Tom. Did you experience that? WOODS: I don' ; t remember experiencing that, but we knew that they were supposed to be better than we were. HANSON: Tell me, you used the word we knew... WOODS: We knew that they were supposed to be better than we were. HANSON: Develop that word " ; knew" ; for me, will you. You understood, did it make you angry? WOODS: It' ; s an understanding. You grew up and you were taught in various ways that they had the upper hand and that you were somewhat [inaudible], you see. Of course, in the play sometime it would come out. I never will forget that on occasion I had the responsibility of finding scrap food to feed our hogs. I would get my bucket, we called it a slop bucket, and go to the White community and we would go through the garbage to find what scraps of food that we could carry back and feed our hogs. I never will forget that one day in the White community some of the White boys turned loose some dogs on us. They seemed to have been very ferocious dogs and we were running and, of course, hollering. I remember the dog jumped on me, you know. He had me down and it was a very terrifying moment. The White boys were laughing, you see. Fortunately, I was not hurt. I think some adults were around somewhere. They called the dogs off. That was a very terrifying experience. HANSON: How old were you? WOODS: I felt so dehumanized and so humiliated and so helpless, you see. They were White and we were Black. HANSON: How old were you, Rev. Woods? WOODS: I don' ; t remember exactly my age and I would hate to try to speculate at this time. I don' ; t think I was in my teens at that time. I hadn' ; t reached my teens at that time. HANSON: Did this develop anger? It would with me. WOODS: Yes, it did. It did. The very fact that they turned these ferocious dogs loose on us and as the dogs attacked they were laughing. They were having fun at our pain, or discomfort, you see. I was very upset but yet had been taught that you had to be careful about venting your anger and your wrath against White people, you see. They took advantage of Negroes. HANSON: Did your anger go towards determination that you were going to do something with your life? You obviously have, along with what your parents have instilled in you. WOODS: Well, obviously things like that built up. HANSON: Sure. WOODS: You know, of course, there is going to come a time...as my think processes matured and I recognized that something could be done and I could be a part of various activities, I entertained the thoughts that I needed to help to better the lot of myself and of my people. HANSON: Did you ever want to get even? These are very negative words, I realize that. WOODS: Well, yes, you have those emotions. HANSON: Sure. WOODS: And, as I said before Whites were in power. They had the authority, they ran everything. They had the police. They had all of this and your word meant nothing against a White person. You better be careful not to sass them, or say they told a lie, or get out of your place. That sort of thing. You had to be very careful. It was a common emotion to want to get even, but it was a thing that you better be careful and not do [it] if you still want to be around. HANSON: What do you think in this emotion that was very common and understandable, what turned you into the path that you went on, which was education, which was the ministry, which was the civil rights movement, as opposed to anything else, a negative kind of behavior? WOODS: Well, I' ; ll tell you what turned me on. Another thing, when I was a boy, my father was trading at a certain White store. I never will forget on payday we used to go to that store and he' ; d get groceries and he' ; d buy some candy and some other stuff for the children. So, we looked forward to that. I never will forget this particular Friday evening we went to Hawkins Store and Mr. Hawkins said my father couldn' ; t get anything. HANSON: Could not get anything? WOODS: Said he couldn' ; t get anything. They were not going to let him have anything. He said, " ; your bill is too high and what do you want to pay me?" ; My dad said, " ; this is all I can pay you, Mr. Hawkins." ; He said, " ; well, I can not let you get anything today." ; My father was so sad, he was pleading with the man for what he needed for his family and children. To see my father pleading with a White man, he' ; s disrespecting him and saying uncomplimentary things to him...I looked up to my father. It hurt me, you see, it was a feeling that I never got over. Of course, there were other situations where my father was humiliated. It' ; s something that hurt, you see. So, after I left Parker High School, where I had been elected President of Student Government, I had received a scholarship to Morehouse. Also, while matriculating at Parker I had some evening work. I was working at Jim Dandy Milling Factory, which was in North Birmingham. I was going there after school and working about four or five hours and maybe sometimes six hours and working on the weekends, saving money to go to school. Of course, there I came in contact with Whites and Blacks, too. Of course, I was a good worker and the White supervisors, undoubtedly, recognized something in me that wasn' ; t in any other workers. So, the owner sent me on special errands and to even do some personal things for him. They thought I was going to stay there at that company. After I finished school, I announced to them that I was going to go to college. So, I went to Morehouse. While at Morehouse, I came under the influence of Dr. Benjamin Mays. Morehouse gave me a tuition scholarship. Of course, I made plans to attend and of course, I received a letter from them saying that " ; we have accepted you and we' ; re giving you a tuition scholarship with the conditions that you continue to make a ' ; B' ; average, but we do not have dormitory space for you." ; HANSON: What did you do? WOODS: They said to me, " ; now we would like to recommend that you go to Payne College." ; That college was in Augusta, Georgia. I didn' ; t want to go to Payne, I wanted to go to Morehouse. So, some neighbors of ours informed us that they had some relatives in Atlanta and that it was possible that I might be able to stay at one of their relatives home. We made contact and it was settled and I did get into Morehouse. After that semester, I was able to move into Graves Hall, where the freshmen were usually housed. We used to rather go to Chapel than eat, some of us, because Dr. Benjamin Mays was going to speak on that particular day. HANSON: He was an influential figure for a lot of... WOODS: Oh, he was an influential figure and I' ; ll never forget on occasion...I can hear him now as he was talking to us. He had sort of a brogue...he said, " ; I would not be a Jim Crow Negro, taking the wings of a bird going up in the gallery in a theater to see a movie. I wouldn' ; t be a Jim Crow Negro, going around to the back of a restaurant, sticking your head in a hole in a wall to get a sandwich. I wouldn' ; t be a Jim Crow Negro." ; You know, he just lifted up and that would just tear us up, because we would go to the theater and you know you couldn' ; t sit on the main floor. You couldn' ; t even sit in the balcony. You had to go beyond the balcony up into the gallery, you see. He said, " ; that' ; s a Jim Crow Negro that would do that." ; When you wanted to order something from a restaurant, you had to go around back in a hole in the wall and order. I wouldn' ; t patronize those kind of situations. It made sense and other things that he would say to us, you see. So, that helped me a whole lot to come under the influence of this great man. HANSON: You were at Morehouse in ' ; 46, ' ; 47. You came back to Birmingham and I think according to your biography here, you went to...what did you do with that interim before you went to the Birmingham Bible College in ' ; 47? WOODS: I imagine I went over to Daniel Payne College, because I was determined I was going to finish my graduate studies. I went there for a while. Then, I went to the Baptist College, I believe. After the Baptist College I went out to Miles College. It was at Miles College that I finished my graduate work with an A.B. major in Sociology and a minor in English. HANSON: I want to deal some more with that period in time, because from ' ; 47 to ' ; 53 it was still a very highly structured segregation environment that you had to fight against in a variety of different ways but not as openly. However, in 1954 something extraordinary happened. The Supreme Court ruled in Brown vs. Board of Education. What did you think that day that came down? WOODS: Well, that was a great day because, as you know, it set aside the Plessy vs. Ferguson decision of 1896. And, of course, it was a time for rejoicing, as far as African-Americans were concerned. There were numerous cases that were going to the various courts seeking to oppose the segregated system that was not equal at all. Whites enjoying the best facilities ; the best books. The Blacks the dilapidated facilities and so, often getting the second hand books the White students had used, even the second hand furniture that they had almost torn up and that sort of thing. So, it was not an equal situation at all. So, it was a time of great hope. Now that the Supreme Court, the highest court in the land, has ruled we have hope now. The courts is on our side. HANSON: But, it was a number of years before...how many years? Five? Four? Before in 1958, ' ; 59, when the beginning of Shuttlesworth is coming here, you' ; re meeting up with him. Detail that time from ' ; 54 to ' ; 58. The hope was there, but it was also closed. WOODS: Before I get there I would like to go back a little bit. HANSON: Okay. WOODS: To some years and look at my activities, what I was doing. After I left Morehouse I went to work at the company where my father worked. HANSON: Jim Dandy? WOODS: McWane. HANSON: That' ; s right, you were at Jim Dandy. WOODS: McWane Pipe Shop. They were training me to be a [inaudible] attendant. That was a very dangerous job. I' ; m sure they hired me because my father had been there for many years. So, I stuck a coal bar in the hot [inaudible] on occasion. My duties there and hot irons [inaudible] out and [inaudible] it missed my face. It hit me on the arms and on the legs. Of course, I had some serious burns. So, I had to be off for quite awhile. In the meantime, I decided that kind of work was not for me. So, I decided not to go back to that. However, I had a family coming now and I had to work to support my family. So, after I left McWane I got a job being a janitor, cleaning up the old Phoenix Building at night, where the telephone company was housed. That wasn' ; t enough to keep food on the table and pay the other necessities. So, I took a day job, janitor at H. L. Green Department Store, which was called [inaudible] in the downtown. So, I worked during the day as a janitor at that department store downtown and at night I would go to the Phoenix Building and clean it up. I never will forget that. I saved up enough money to make a down payment on a car. A little old Ford. I started driving it to work to the Phoenix Building, but I would park it around the block. HANSON: Why? WOODS: Well, you just didn' ; t want the White supervisors to know. HANSON: That you had a car? WOODS: Yeah. HANSON: Why? What would happen? WOODS: So, one night I was running late and I drove up in front of the building. I parked the car and got out and the supervisor was going in the building. He saw me and he saw my car. So, I went on in and got ready for my work and proceeded to go to work. He came up on the floor where I was mopping. He said to me, " ; well now, Abe you' ; re going to have to decide which one of these jobs you want." ; Well, I was sort of taken back. I said, " ; what do you mean? You just told me last week that I was doing a good job here and you talked with the people at the store and they said I was doing a good job there." ; I said, " ; now, what' ; s wrong?" ; He said, " ; you' ; re driving a car that looks better than mine." ; I said, " ; is that it?" ; He said, " ; yes." ; I said, " ; ok, you can have your job." ; So, I left him and only had the job at the department store. HANSON: That was an act of defiance then. Would that might not have traveled the grapevine, look out for Abraham Woods? WOODS: Well, no, it didn' ; t, because I was a good worker. I worked well, even when I was cutting grass and going across the mountain cutting grass. I cut grass so well and trimmed shrubbery so well until various people across the mountain was getting upset with each other. This one said, " ; he' ; s going to cut mine next." ; And another one said, " ; no, he' ; s going to cut mine next." ; In fact, they even got in a squabble about my doing their yard. The fuss came so intense I just had to leave it there. They were really on each other about me doing their yard. I did that kind of work. My work was good work. One day one of the supervisors said to me, " ; Abraham we want you to go to the state store and get us a fifth of liquor." ; I said to them, " ; well, I don' ; t go to the state store. I don' ; t drink." ; They said, " ; well, the other fellow we had, he used to go." ; I said, " ; well, I don' ; t go. I' ; m a Christian and I don' ; t drink and I don' ; t go to the state store." ; So, they said, " ; okay." ; That didn' ; t bother me, but that Christmas the manager called me into his office. He said to me, " ; Abraham, you' ; ve been a great worker. I want to call you in to let you know I' ; m going to give you a raise. We appreciate your work." ; He was drinking. So, he said, " ; here, let me pour you a drink." ; So, I said, " ; Mr. Wilkins, I don' ; t drink." ; He said, " ; you don' ; t? Well, sir, them fellows told me that, but I didn' ; t believe it." ; So, he was just testing me out. So, I stayed there until... HANSON: Did you get the raise? WOODS: Yeah, I got the raise. I eventually quit, because I wanted to go back to school. I took a job with Atlanta Life Insurance Company. I worked as a Life underwriter for a number of years. It was hard work, hard work. You had to bring in new business. So, often when you hadn' ; t written up any new business, you would stop at a tree and ask the tree, " ; tree, what' ; s your name?" ; (Laughing) And then write it up, you know. HANSON: Atlanta Life Insurance, was that a Black company? WOODS: Yes, a Black company. It' ; s downtown now. It' ; s in the [inaudible] Temple now. In fact, Atlanta Life Insurance Company is one of the largest Black companies. HANSON: Was it in competition with Booker T. and Gaston? WOODS: Yes, yes, it was. I wasn' ; t making too much money in life insurance, because I would have to take insurance premium out of my pay for the trees and the tree stumps that I had written. (Laughing) HANSON: Was that a bit of a cheat? WOODS: Well, yes, but if you wanted to stay there you had to write business, because Mr. Charlie Green, who was the manager looked for some business. So, I was called to preach while I was working at Atlanta Life. So, I announced it to them that I had been called to preach. So, the next week I was expecting...I worked at Atlanta Life Insurance Company and what the church was giving me and putting them together, you know. Then, the next week in one of the meetings the manager, Mr. Charlie Green said, " ; well, Rev. Woods has been called to preach, been called to the church and he' ; s going to be leaving us." ; I hadn' ; t said I was going to be leaving. HANSON: You wanted both? WOODS: I wanted both, but he said that I will be leaving them and " ; we want to wish him well." ; So, I had the church and so I decided to go back to school. It was tough, but I did go back to school. I went to Daniel Payne College and that' ; s where we come back into the Daniel Payne College. Then, [I] went on to the Baptist College and then, after that [I] went on to Miles College. Let' ; s get back to where we were. HANSON: We are going to do that. I want two things. These are fascinating stories. Where did you get your work ethic? WOODS: I got it from my father. My father had a really good work ethic. In fact, you can go back further than that. We lived in East Thomas and on the hill, back over the hill was College Hills. I often went over there to get scraps, slop for our hogs. But I also, as a boy, worked at some of the homes. I' ; ll never forget one of the big houses up there. The lady hired me to clean her floors. I had to get on my knees to scrub her bathrooms and clean everything. Of course, all day 50¢, you see. I pass that house on occasion now. Blacks live up in there now, but I had a very strong work ethics. I not only did that but cut grass and also served as a delivery boy at a grocery store. The little money that I would make I would have to give it all to my daddy and then he would give me back... HANSON: There was no welfare then, there was nothing that you could go to? WOODS: Not much welfare, there were some surplus food. I never will forget we were on the list to get some of the surplus food. Sometimes it would be powder milk and some cheese. Sometimes it would be peanut butter and this sort of thing. So, you had that during those days. My father was a hard worker and I imagine I took after him. HANSON: How did you keep hope alive? I think it' ; s Jesse Jackson who constantly says, " ; Keep hope alive." ; How did you keep hope alive during that period of time? Did you know that there was going to be something better? Did you just strive for it? It was a segregated time now, you know what' ; s happening in downtown Birmingham. It is more closed and... WOODS: Well, what played such an important role in our lives was the church, you see, the church. The encouragement we got at church and the fact that there was a God, you see. He' ; s a God of justice. He' ; s not going to permit all of this injustice to continue, you see. As the passage, ' ; Be not to see, God is not marked. What every man sows, that shall he also reap. Weaping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.' ; We had hope, we found hope through the church ; in the word of God ; through our religious orientations, you see. HANSON: But, you' ; re still a very young man and you have a family and you want to do alot for them. Hope in the church could translate, then, to being active in the movement. For example, when did you meet Fred Shuttlesworth? When did you start all that? WOODS: Ok, in the 1950s, I met Shuttlesworth sometime after 1954. The Supreme Court, not the Supreme Court, but the state of Alabama had issued an injunction against the NAACP. It could not operate any longer. I remember one of the members of the church I attended was seeking to get Blacks to register to vote. The question I was real long at, great difficulty, but I never will forget Mr. Patterson. He was a member of the NAACP and he was seeking to get Black voters. It was difficult. I never forgot him. I took note of him, because there were not alot of people in our church trying to do things like that. So, he stood out, you see. I always appreciated him. HANSON: Your talking about [inaudible] Patton? WOODS: How is that? HANSON: You said, Patton? WOODS: Patterson. HANSON: Patterson, okay. WOODS: So, after the NAACP was outlawed I decided to work with a group that was headed by Dr. Patton, which was the supervisor and coordinated by Mrs. Bernice Johnson. By the way, Bernice Johnson was the first campaign director for Dr. Arrington. You see, she had played a tremendous role. I consider her as my civil rights mother. She was working for Dr. Patton and he was working for the NAACP, but it was another group. A political coordinating group, Attorney R. L. Billings was a part of it and that sort of thing. They were seeking to register all of the African- Americans that they could register. So, I became a part of those campaigns working with Bernice Johnson. I met Fred Shuttlesworth, because Shuttlesworth had been working with the NAACP, too. It was Fred Shuttlesworth, after the NAACP enjoined, who called a mass meeting at the old Sardis Baptist Church. He said in that mass meeting when there was consent, that a new organization should [be] born. He said, " ; they killed the old hen, but before she died she had some biddies." ; He was referring to the Alabama Christian Movement as one of the biddies. It really turned into a fighting rooster, you see. So, that is where I hooked up with Fred Shuttlesworth. I then became one of the vice-presidents of the Alabama Christian Movement. I remember the inner circle. HANSON: How did you...Why did you do it as opposed to somebody else? What is it about Abraham Woods that made him decide by golly, I am going to work with Shuttlesworth. I' ; m going to stand the wrath of the city fathers. What made Abraham Woods do that? WOODS: What I had been through. The experiences I had and my hopelessness and my fear and my rage at the injustice and the humiliation which Jim Crow, the southern way of life, had forced upon me and my family and African-Americans. I had determined that I was going to do what I could. HANSON: Regardless of the consequences? WOODS: Regardless of the consequences. I had to grow in that kind of commitment, because in those early days Shuttlesworth was the most courageous man I had ever seen. He wasn' ; t afraid of anything. He carried us into all kinds of dangerous situations and I started thinking that we could get killed in some of these situations. Fred didn' ; t seem to have a fear at all. I started thinking to myself this fellow is going to get ya' ; ll killed. I had those kinds of thoughts. Yet I was ashamed to express them, you see. I didn' ; t want anybody to know that I was thinking that. I didn' ; t want to die. I wanted to do something. You know, to give the last measure of devotion, it' ; s something that you come to as you continue to work in the movement. You constantly evaluate what you' ; re doing and the impact it is having. So, it is something I got caught up in. I started accepting the fact then that if I had to make the ultimate contribution because that was the sentiment. That was Fred' ; s sentiment. That was the sentiment of others and the commitment of others, too. We read about what had happened and who sought to lead voter registration campaigns and who sought to do this and that in other places in the South. So, you eventually came to that and your commitment grew. Your courage grew. HANSON: Stop right there a minute, cause we want to deal with that courage and we want to deal about that. I want to know, you said you felt rage, you felt anger, you felt humiliated. These are some of the words you used. How did you buy into non-violence when other people were willing to use violence? What made you buy into non-violence with all these human emotions you are experiencing? WOODS: Well, as you know the Montgomery bus boycott was going on in Montgomery. We admired Dr. King. He had emerged as a charismatic, eloquent, forceful, committed leader, you see. He had embraced the philosophy of non-violence, you see. He was having tremendous success in Montgomery. Of course, as in other places in the south...transportation here in Birmingham. They were being successful in Montgomery. So, Fred Shuttlesworth was leading that struggle here. Some other people were leading it in other places. Jamison was in [inaudible]. [inaudible] Steele down in Tallahassee, you see. Shuttlesworth was leading it here. So, reading about King and then going down to the mass meetings on occasion, you see. It appeared that, that was the way to go, you see. He made the teachings of the Bible come alive. Of course, when his home was bombed, he was in Montgomery. HANSON: Are you talking about Shuttlesworth, or King? WOODS: Talking about King. Negroes came out, African-Americans came out with all kinds of weapons, guns, shotguns, pistols and all kinds of weapons. He told them to " ; go home and put your weapons up." ; They that lived by the sword will die by the sword, you see. So, his being an exponent, or embracing non-violence in the movement, he was having great success. He was being [inaudible] and we had religious orientations. Then, we knew that was the way to go. And, of course, really not understanding still a whole lot about it, but we did have some misgivings. I did until I was enrolled in a course. As they sought to get ready to come to Birmingham, Shuttlesworth had already invited King to come to Birmingham, but prior to their coming, we were enrolled, I believe, in a course called the Power of Non-Violence. I never will forget the author of this book, his name was Dr. Greg, as we sat in the classes. HANSON: Where were the classes, Rev. Woods? WOODS: It was held in various churches. HANSON: In Birmingham? WOODS: Also, I believe we went to a Miles Hawkins school somewhere. Maybe it was in Tennessee. Then, went somewhere over in the Carolinas. A woman over there, I can' ; t remember her full name, Fatina something, but she was a great mother of the movement. So, we were taught these techniques. We saw that it took great character, great strength to embrace non-violence. It was not a [inaudible] sort of weak kind of thing. It took great strength. Everybody couldn' ; t do that, didn' ; t have that type of discipline, you see. To be spit on and not retaliate, to be kicked and a cigarette butt put down your back. Slapped and all that kind...it takes great discipline and strength to do that. HANSON: Were you ever spat on? WOODS: Yes, I was. HANSON: Did they ever put a cigarette out on your back? WOODS: Well, no. Tried to, but I started wiggling before it went down. Some of them did get them put down their backs and that sort of thing. We learned it took great strength in order to keep your composure and not retaliate. HANSON: There were deaths happening to a lot of Negroes and some Whites that dared stand up. How did you get the courage to accept death as a possibility for what you were doing, Rev. Woods? WOODS: Well, as I said, Fred Shuttlesworth had already gone over that hurdle. If he had not, he wouldn' ; t have been doing the things that he was doing. I' ; ll never forget that his home was bombed, his church was bombed. It was Christmas and we were supposed to ride the buses in a desegregated manner the next day. Of course, we were out at that scene. Reporters were around and one of the reporters asked Rev. Shuttlesworth, standing not too far from him, he said, " ; now your church has been bombed, you' ; ve been bombed. You' ; ve been blown out of your house. Of course, you did not sustain any major injuries. You have promised that you were going to ride the buses in a desegregated manner tomorrow. Now since this has happened to you, what are you going to do? Are you still going to ride the buses?" ; What impressed me, Shuttlesworth, before the reporter could get it out of his mouth Fred said, " ; when the buses run, we' ; re going to ride." ; (Laughing). Well, I thought maybe Fred should have said, " ; we' ; re going to meet and we' ; re going to discuss it. We' ; re going to assess the situation and then we' ; re going to decide." ; He said, " ; when those buses run, we' ; re going to ride." ; And ride those buses we did. His little darling said, " ; Daddy, they can' ; t kill us, can they?" ; Because of the attempts that had been made on his life, he looked at her and said, " ; no." ; When he got ready to go up to Phillips High School to enroll his children in Phillips High School, it had been announced. HANSON: Did you go with him that day? WOODS: Yes, and I' ; ll tell you how I went. We were standing around talking and Fred said, " ; well, gentlemen, I' ; m ready to go up to Phillips." ; So, he looked around at us. He said, " ; I' ; ll need somebody to drive me up there." ; He looked right at me. He said, " ; Woods, I want you to drive me up to Phillips." ; Well, I knew that every sick minded fanatic would be there with all kinds of weapons. So, I tried to find some kind of excuse not to drive. I wanted to support him, but I really didn' ; t want to drive that car. So, I just kept saying, " ; Fred, well, you see, well, you know." ; Trying to think of something to say. While I was humming and hooing, another one of the vice- presidents, Rev. J. S. Phiffer said, " ; I' ; ll drive you." ; I said, " ; Well, alright, if Phiffer' ; s going to drive you, I can' ; t drive you. But I' ; ll tell you what, I' ; ll be the look out man. I' ; ll go with you all and I will be the look out man. I will look out one block from where you' ; re going so I can see what' ; s happening." ; So, that' ; s what I did. So, we drove up toward Phillips. I stopped one block from the school. Sure enough, there was this huge, enraged crowd with bats, sticks and chains. Ain' ; t no telling, knives and what not. I said, " ; Good, God, I know, I hope Fred' ; s not going to stop in the midst of that mob." ; I stopped at the block. He told Phiffer to go on. Phiffer drove him on down, his wife was in the car, too. He drove him on down and stopped right in the middle of that mob that was at the front entrance. Not only did he stop, but he opened the door and got out. I said, " ; Good, God, Almighty." ; Of course, as soon as he opened the door and got out they grabbed him, you see. Very quickly, he was on the ground and they were beating him on the ground. They were kicking him, stepping on him and what not. How he got up, I don' ; t know, but he got up and he was backing toward the car door. The car door was open and he was backing toward the car door. Some fellow was about to hit him and before this fellow could swing he fell in the car door and Phiffer pulled him in and somehow shut the door. I don' ; t know how they did that. Mrs. Shuttlesworth was trying to get out and somebody hit her in the side with a knife and stabbed her in the side with a knife. They shut the door. Miraculously, the Lord certainly had a plan. Phiffer started the car and, of course, they were shaking it and they were trying to stop it. He was revving the engine up and the momentum of the car, they had to get out of the way. So, I scooted around the block and I was thinking they had done killed Rev. Shuttlesworth. They had done beat him almost to death. There ain' ; t no telling how bad and they' ; ve gone to the hospital. So, we went to the hospital. After he was examined the doctors told him that he didn' ; t even have a fracture. He said he couldn' ; t understand it. I never will forget what Fred' ; s response was. He told us what he said to the doctor, " ; the Lord knew I had a hard job, so he gave me a hard head." ; He said that sort of thing. That man was incredible and, of course, my courage is going to build up. I decided to just test myself. Nobody' ; s with me. I' ; m a first class citizen. One morning I decided I was going to ride first class on the bus. They didn' ; t arrest me when we rode... HANSON: With Shuttlesworth? WOODS: Right. They arrested some of the persons who rode on various lines. Of course, a White fellow tried to get the driver to have me and the group with me arrested. He just kept telling the driver, " ; don' ; t you see the Negroes here?" ; The driver just kept driving. He told him again, " ; don' ; t you see these Negroes here?" ; The driver didn' ; t say anything. So, that gentleman jumped up and pulled the cord and said, " ; Let me off, this so an so." ; When he got off, the driver just kept driving. So, none of us were arrested on that bus, which went out somewhere towards West End. I think it was a trolley. But they did arrest some of our people in other places. Sometime later, someday, I don' ; t remember how long, but I decided I was going to ride as a first class citizen. So, I got on the bus over near the University Hospital. I had a Bible and an umbrella. HANSON: A Bible and an umbrella? WOODS: A Bible and an umbrella. So, I said I' ; m going to sit here, I' ; m going to sit up front. I' ; m not going to the back. I wanted to be a first class citizen. I wasn' ; t afraid and I was going to sit up front. So, I did sit in a seat up front. A White fellow was in one part of it. So, I just sat in the part near the aisle. I started reading my Bible and I was watching him out of one eye and I was reading the Bible out of the other eye. Of course, he kept swelling up and turning colors, you know. I knew he was going to say something eventually, you see. HANSON: Excuse me, is he sitting next to you? WOODS: He' ; s sitting next to the window. HANSON: And you' ; re sitting in the same seat? WOODS: I' ; m sitting in the part of the seat next to the aisle. You know two persons could sit there. HANSON: In other words, you' ; re sitting right next to him? WOODS: Yeah, I' ; m sitting right next to him. Of course, all at once he said, " ; boy, get on back there where you belong." ; [Inaudible] I read a long time before I realized it was upside down. I guess I was more watching him than reading my Bible. (Laughing) I just didn' ; t move. I just kept reading my Bible. Then he said it again, " ; didn' ; t you hear me boy, get on back there." ; So, I didn' ; t say anything, I just kept reading. I heard a voice from the back. It said, " ; Hun, come on back here with us now. Don' ; t you start no trouble up there." ; So, I ignored that, because people like that we call Aunt Jane, or Nervous Nelly. I wasn' ; t going to let no Aunt Jane stop me from being a first class citizen. So, after a while somebody in the back pulled a cord and then, this little lady was getting off the bus. A friend of hers said, " ; you getting off here? This is not your stop." ; She said, " ; I know it child, but I don' ; t want to be in no mess." ; So, she jumps off the bus. I just kept sitting there. The bus driver didn' ; t say anything. I ignored the White fellow and finally he said, " ; move over." ; I moved over and he jumped up and came out by me an he sat over in another seat. That was the end of that. So, I felt my courage coming. I had decided now whatever happens to me, it' ; s alright. I must do my part in this thing. From then on I had no fear. HANSON: But you had to test it that way? WOODS: I tested it by myself. There was nobody but me. So, I didn' ; t have no more fear, you see. HANSON: Let me ask you about when you registered to vote for the first time. How did that come about? These are very momentous things. WOODS: Well, I really don' ; t remember the year that I registered to vote. I do know that it was a long questionnaire. I had become registered, because I was in charge of a group. At this time I was at Miles College and I' ; m in charge of a group that is going to canvas the African-American city and in the outlying areas to teach them how to vote. Prior to that, I had become a register voter. I imagine I became a registered voter somewhere along the lines when I started trying to work with Mrs. Johnson and Mr. Patton. HANSON: It wasn' ; t hard for you? WOODS: Yes, it was hard, but we had been taught how to fill out the questionnaire. HANSON: Wasn' ; t there also an oral test that they would give you when you would go to register to vote? WOODS: Well, I really don' ; t remember what the oral test was at that time. All I do know is that somewhere, I can' ; t pin point the time, I did pass. A lot of people were not passing. It was a long questionnaire, moral turpitude and all this kind of stuff. If you were an illegitimate child, or if you were the parents of an illegitimate child, then, Bull Conner had come up with some kind of law that you couldn' ; t vote, or something of that kind. They had all kinds of obstacles and what- not in the way of people who sought to vote. HANSON: Rev. Woods, lets go back to that time. You said you got your courage, A: watching Fred Shuttlesworth and seeing his and then testing it yourself. How far would that courage have extended, you think, if your wife and your children had been [inaudible]? And were they? WOODS: Well, eventually they were threatened. We were all threatened. That is when we became a part of the massive demonstrations there in the city after Fred had invited Dr. King to come to Birmingham. He didn' ; t get here the year that we wanted him to come. We wanted to get started, I believe, in 1962 but David Vann and some others had [inaudible] change in the city' ; s form of government. From a commissioner form to a mayor/council form, you see. So, they wanted us to hold up, to see what the promises and the results of that government would be. Bull would no longer be in authority, you see. We decided that we were not going to get the rights that were due us even with a new form of government. Fred Shuttlesworth used to say, the new mayor whose name was Boutwell, he said, " ; he wasn' ; t well, he was Boutwell." ; So, therefore he was not going to give us what we wanted. He was going to be more of a sophisticated Bull. He was going to be a Bull, but a sophisticated Bull, you see. So, with the coming of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, then the [inaudible]. Of course, while we worked with Shuttlesworth, trying to desegregate public facilities and things like that, I never will forget Fred in the early time of the movement to try to desegregate the terminal station. A White minister, whose name was Weaver, wanted to support him. So, he went over as Fred sat in the White waiting room and he sat down beside him. Of course, an angry group of Whites soon gathered. They were more enraged about Rev. Weaver than they were about Fred Shuttlesworth. So, they made Weaver the target. They tried to apprehend him. Somehow he was able to get away. They yelled out threats to him, " ; nigger lover, this and that" ; and said they were going to kill him, you know. The people that day were serious because in the end he had to be hidden in a funeral home. He had to be gotten out of town in a hearse in the wee hours, you see. HANSON: So, now these things have happened. Shuttlesworth is working with you and several other people independently. What turned the tide and what made King decide to come to Birmingham? WOODS: Well, he had promised Fred that he was coming to fight. The convention met here. I believe it was in 1962. HANSON: The SCLC? WOODS: Yeah. The national convention. I' ; ll never forget why the convention was here. It was the convention that was here. King had just finished an address in [inaudible] auditorium. Of course, a great preacher, a great speaker, you know, we were all lifted. We [inaudible]. We sat down and we noticed a White fellow got up and he started down to the stage where Dr. King was still standing. When he got on the stage, frankly we thought that he was going down to congratulate King, shake his hand or something, when he got there he started hitting King with his fists. We were shocked. Of course, when we gathered our wits and good senses, some of the fellows picked up chairs and started bashing them on him. They just about given him a good beating. King said, " ; don' ; t touch him, don' ; t hit him." ; (Voice to low to hear.) Somebody said, " ; call the police." ; King said, " ; No, don' ; t call the police." ; Somebody called them anyhow and of course, when the police arrived, King refused to press any charges against this White fellow. In fact, the White fellow had gotten all nervous and upset by this time. So, King asked one of the ladies to bring him a glass of water. One of them reluctantly, I' ; m not sure if it was Deenie Drew, or who it was that finally brought him that glass of water. King refused to press charges when the police arrived, you see. So, then [the] next year they decided they needed to come. They sent Wyatt T. Walker in as the front man to look at the lay of the land out here. I was one of the minister who took him to the downtown area. We made the rounds to all of the things that we were going to be involved with. Wyatt T. Walker set up the strategy that would be followed and what department stores we would sit in and what not and when we were going to do it, you see. So, the die is going to be cast now for this situation. Also, I was teaching at Miles then. I finished Miles in the spring of ' ; 62 and I asked Dr. Pitts for a job and he gave me a job. I started working at Miles in the fall of ' ; 62 and of course, I' ; ve been there ever since. So, I need to mention that Miles College students were the first group to show us that we could mount a successful selective buying campaign on downtown Birmingham. If I can remember correctly, the Miles College campus became upset, because Bull Conner would not let us go into the community to solicit funds to upgrade our library. He said if we went down he would put us in jail. I never will forget that day that President Pitts was [inaudible]. So, sometime later a selective buying campaign was directed. HANSON: Stop there a minute, because this whole period with Lucius Pitts, who isn' ; t with us anymore and what happened at Miles and you were a part of that is a very interesting time in Birmingham' ; s history. Did Pitts ever tell you, or any other member of the faculty, to try to discourage these young people, or was he very much a part of encouraging it? WOODS: Pitts was very much a part of the encouragement. Pitts' ; background was one that which had him involved in trying to help African-Americans get justice and opportunities. Now he worked with the African-American teachers in Georgia and I think he also worked with the NAACP. So, he came out of a background that he had to face these kinds of things. HANSON: So, he gave you encouragement? WOODS: He gave us all the encouragement. He permitted me to be involved in everything that was going on. He encouraged students to go with me. Even some of the faculty members joined in. Pitts was on the, was a member of the [inaudible] committee. He was one of King' ; s chief advisors. Many of the strategy meetings were held in Pitts office on the campus of Miles College. HANSON: Did the police know about that? WOODS: I don' ; t know. (Laughing) I don' ; t know if they knew that, or not. Miles College would eventually get some threats and, of course, armed guards would have to sit out at the entrance to Miles College. Pitts would tell the White leaders downtown that car loads of strange young men had come in and they were trying to get Miles College students to join up with them. They were militants, the Stokely Carmichael and if something didn' ; t happen, or if something didn' ; t take place, if something isn' ; t done to alleviate the condition of Black folk in this, it' ; s going to blow up. Seemed to be just a matter of time. Frankly, to tell you the truth, Dr. Pitts exaggerated some things. (Laughing) HANSON: How could you teach in an environment like that, Rev. Woods? What did you teach? WOODS: Well, when I first started teaching I was teaching some religious courses, Old Testament, New Testament. I had this group of students...Dr. Pitts had gotten a grant and he used the grant to sponsor a voter' ; s education project. I had some students in it who got some credits for being a part of that group. Also, some White students came from the New England states during the summer to be a part of that group and to go with the Blacks in the communities and out in the lying areas to teach people how to vote. Eventually, some Catholic nuns came, too, to be a part of that group. We would send them out, Black and White together, to go to the various houses. I' ; ll never forget that sometimes people wouldn' ; t open the door. They would look out the window and see a White girl with a Black boy and they wouldn' ; t open the window. That was bad news. You don' ; t do that, you see. They wouldn' ; t even let them in. These New England White young people helped us tremendously. These nuns, I forget where the nuns came from, but I' ; ll never forget the nuns being with us. We got caught in a little rain storm one day. We had been in the outlying areas teaching people how to register to vote. We would line them up to go to the polls. We would send a bus to pick them up and we would sponsor babysitters and we would go with them to the polls. We would be there to give them moral support. We would see that they registered and bring them back. I' ; ll never forget we were coming back to the campus and it was raining. To keep from getting too wet we had to try to run and get to the shelter. One of the sisters with a long old black gown, or habit, or whatever you call it, on. HANSON: Habit, yeah. WOODS: She was running too, trying to get out of the rain. She had pulled her skirt up so she could run better. One of the young men, he was a White young man from one of the New England colleges, he looked around and saw the sister with the habit pulled up showing her legs. He said, " ; Look, look, sister got legs, sister got legs." ; (Laughing) HANSON: So the humor, helped you survive. WOODS: Yeah, that helped us survive. Fred laughed a whole lot, too. Fred kept a lot of humor in the situation. HANSON: Humor, religion and certainly music all played a part in the movement. WOODS: I don' ; t know what we would have done without Carlton Reese. I' ; m telling you that, that music would just lift you, you see. We would get in the singing and we meant it. We meant those songs. We would not sing just to be singing. Those songs strengthened us. We were singing our commitment. We ain' ; t gonna let nobody turn me around, you see. HANSON: We want our freedom. WOODS: Woke up each morning with my mind stayed on freedom, you see. Alot of that, you see. We meant that. HANSON: 1963, obviously the bombing of the church. Do you think that changed everything? Or had it started because of the march in Washington first? WOODS: Well, I think the bombing took place because of the success that we had achieved. I led the first group of sit-ins at the lunch counters. We went to Loveman' ; s and they had a sort of a restaurant type place within the store, not just a lunch counter. We sat down at the tables there. The waitresses, they hurriedly cleaned off the other tables and what few diners there, they finished and they got up and left. Then, the waitresses turned the lights out and they pulled the rope that separated the eating part of the store from the rest of the store. They pulled the chain and locked. We were still sitting up there, lights out. Of course, we knew what that meant. They were not going to bother us. They were just going to let us sit there till the store closed. That was the strategy they had worked out. So, we knew that wasn' ; t going to do. So, I said, " ; now we got to be arrested." ; So, I said, " ; come on, let' ; s go next door." ; So, we went next door, to what was Newberry' ; s then. We went in to their lunch counter and proceeded to sit at their lunch counter. Of course, we got the kind of response we were looking for. One of the ladies said, " ; we can' ; t serve y' ; all. Y' ; all better get out of here. If you don' ; t, I' ; m going to call the police and have you arrested for trespassing." ; Of course, we said, " ; we just want a cup of coffee, a sandwich." ; Customers were in the store. She kept telling us, " ; Y' ; all better get out of here." ; Finally, the supervisor, the manager came up and he said, " ; I' ; m going to warn you. You' ; re trespassing. If you don' ; t leave, I' ; m going to call the police." ; So, we said, " ; go on and call the police. What' ; s taking you so long?" ; Finally, he called the police and the police came. The police said, " ; I want to warn you, you' ; re trespassing. If you don' ; t leave, I' ; m going to have to arrest you." ; (Laughing) So we said, " ; go ahead arrest us. We' ; re not leaving." ; So, finally, he called the paddy wagon. He said, " ; you' ; re under arrest" ; Then, he called the paddy wagon. That' ; s what we wanted him to do. So, we got in the paddy wagon. We loaded it up and we started singing. I' ; m telling you that paddy wagon was rocking from side to side as it was going down the street. We were having a good time. They took us over to the city jail and processed us and put us in a big dormitory type room with bunk beds and that sort of thing. The inmates didn' ; t know who we were. So, we discovered that late that night we saw folks crawling, like they were trying to crawl up to our beds. Well, we didn' ; t understand why these inmates were trying to crawl up to our beds. Are they trying to get in bed with us, or are they trying to take some of our belongings? [inaudible] So, we talked to each other and decided that some of us needed to keep watch. So, some of us slept and some of us watched. Eventually, in a day, or so, they found out who we were, that these people were with Martin Luther King Jr. So, they started warming up to us and they cut out all that hanky panky. We talked with them and tried to enlighten them about what was going on and convert them too and that sort of thing. HANSON: They were Black inmates? WOODS: They were Black inmates. So, they decided to send me and one or two others to the city farm. Since I was one of the leaders, they were going to send us to work on the farm. So, they loaded us up that morning and put us on the truck and took us to the farm. I didn' ; t even know the city had a farm until then. We got out there, somewhere near Hooper City. I' ; m telling you they had a nice farm out there. It was just like putting a rabbit in a briar patch. See, I came up being able to plant corn and sweet potatoes and greens and this sort of thing. So, I even picked cotton at one time with my grandmother. So, I mean, it wasn' ; t any punishment for us. So, they decided to take us out into the woods. It' ; s about two, or three, of us. They said, " ; come with us. Here' ; s some picks and some shovels" ; and they had shotguns. They took us way out in the middle of the woods. We got to wondering what do these people got us out here for, are they going to kill us. So, finally, they stopped and they said, " ; we want to dig here." ; Well, we had thought that they possibly were making us dig our graves and after we dig them they are going to shoot us and bury us way out there in the woods. So, we refused to dig. In fact, I asked them, " ; dig for what? Why are we digging?" ; They looked at each other and sort of smiled and they said, " ; well, we think there is some water out here on this farm. We need water for the crop and the live stock." ; Well, we accepted that and they left and we dug. When they got back, we dug a great big hole for them. They just came and got us and took us on back and put us on the truck and sent us back to the jail. It was just something to do. HANSON: Rev. Woods, I' ; ve always wondered for everybody that went to jail. Did that go on your record? Did it have to be erased from your record? How did that work? WOODS: Ok, it went on our record. What happened is that our lawyers kept fighting that situation and eventually they came to a process. I forget the name of the process, which wipes any kind of conviction, or record, off your record completely. I forget what you call that process at this time. That' ; s what happened to us at that particular time. The courts wiped... HANSON: Unjust arrest, yes. WOODS: The slate clean. So, we didn' ; t even have that on our record. HANSON: How many other times did you go to jail? WOODS: Well, that was the first time I went and stayed like that. The other times that we went we were bonded right on out. What we had to do this particular time was to promise to stay in. Of course, there were many that were arrested and they didn' ; t spend any time in jail that much. They got right on out, because Rev. Gardner had the bonding money and this sort of thing. If you went at certain times, like while we were trying to break the back bone of segregation in this city, even when we turned the children out. Now, it was really Rev. Bevel who had the idea of using the children. To my knowledge, Dr. King did not warm up too much to that idea. HANSON: How did you feel about taking the children? WOODS: Well... HANSON: And where were your children during that time? WOODS: Well, I did have some concern about it, but we decided to go on. We knew that we weren' ; t getting the number of persons, older persons, that we needed to fill up the jails. The movement, seemingly, was going to fail if we didn' ; t get large masses of people going to jail. This seemed to be the hole. I became involved in helping to get the students out of school, you see. They were eager to get out. The word was going around and they were climbing out of windows and jumping over fences. They were coming out every way they could come out. They were eager to come out. They were marching down to Sixteenth Street singing, " ; I ain' ; t gonna let nobody turn me ' ; round." ; So, I got back to Sixteenth Street one morning after I had went to get other students out of school and low and behold my wife was there and several of my children. I was surprised to see them. HANSON: How did you feel about that? WOODS: Well, I was surprised to see them because I didn' ; t know that they were coming. They said, " ; daddy, we want to go to jail, too." ; So, I said, " ; good," ; because I couldn' ; t resist their going to jail and I had been getting other folk' ; s children to go to jail. So, my three girls said, " ; well, we want to go." ; Then, my son, my oldest son, five, he said, " ; daddy, I want to go, too." ; His mom said, " ; no, son, you can' ; t go." ; He said, " ; I want to go." ; She said, " ; no, you can' ; t go. What would you do if one of those dogs got after you?" ; He put his hands in his pocket and came out with a nice size rock. He said, " ; I' ; ll hit them in the head with this rock." ; His mother said, " ; no, you still can' ; t go." ; HANSON: He was only five? WOODS: Well, he had a fit, he went into a temper tantrum, kicking and screaming and hollering that he wanted to go to jail, too. Of course, his three sisters went and his mother still wouldn' ; t let him go. They stayed in a week. Of course, as you know, they filled up the jails, the juvenile detention facilities. They even put them over in Fair Park. This is what broke the camel' ; s back, you see, with the jails being full. HANSON: We were talking about being arrested, Rev. Woods. WOODS: Yes. HANSON: You were saying... WOODS: That' ; s right the children filled up the jails. HANSON: Yeah, yeah. WOODS: That was the straw that broke the camel' ; s back. As you know, there were some businessmen in Japan that were part of that group that saw those dogs attacking the children here in Birmingham. Of course, it was a terrible thing. My job also was to gather up a person who had been bitten by the dogs and take them to Dr. Hershel Hamilton, who was our doctor. He gave them shots just in case the dogs had rabies and that sort of thing. Of course, some of the people had been knocked down by the powerful blast of the water hose. See, we learned just how to stay just out of harm' ; s way and to just enjoy being drenched by the cool water and just dance and jump around. Those who got caught too close you had to develop a strategy in this sort of thing. So, when Dr. King was attacked about the children, of course, you know he stated [inaudible] He said, " ; these children have already been hurt. They' ; ve already been injured by the southern way of life. Now they have an opportunity to change that." ; Now that was a good explanation and, of course, it made sense. HANSON: Give me a time frame. When was the children' ; s march? It was in the spring of ' ; 63, correct? WOODS: Spring of ' ; 63, that is correct. HANSON: Did the march on Washington happen after that? WOODS: After that. It wasn' ; t going to be till August, the march on Washington. The bombing of Sixteenth Street was in September. We were going to [inaudible]. We went through some turbulent things. We went through alot of other bombings in Birmingham, the bombing of Bethel Church and bombs going off in other parts of the city of Birmingham. Some of the bombs, I think, they were set to trap us. One would go off and we would rush to the area and if we would have been close enough another bomb would go off when the crowd gets there. So, some of those bombs were, we felt, were placed to kill and to maim, you see. Of course, Shores' ; home was bombed twice. The Gaston Motel was bombed once. I never will forget that night when the Gaston Motel was bombed. On that Friday night, wine heads and people who were under the influence came out of the various drinking places and their rage overflowed. They turned over cars and set them on fire. They set stores on fire. They bombarded the police and the fire trucks with rocks and things. HANSON: So, you had no control over those people? WOODS: That' ; s right. That was a terrible night. So terrible the police asked those of us who were supposed to be leaders to get in the cars and ride with them so that the firemen could go put out the fire and that sort of thing. It was a little uncomfortable to ride with them that night. I remember being in a police car and, of course, I held my head way out the window and I said, " ; I' ; ve got to take this risk, but I want those folks who were throwing rocks to see that I' ; m a soul brother." ; So, I put my head way out the window so they could see. We were able to get through so that the police were able to do what they wanted to do, which was bring the firemen to put the fire out. Cars were turned over and stores were set on fire. That was a night when African- Americans went crazy. I saw an African-American behind [inaudible] and he came from behind and had a long knife. The policeman was at the other end and he shook his knife at the police and said, " ; come here. I want that suit you got on." ; I thought the policeman was going to go down there like they usually do with his gun and he was going to get shot. The policeman didn' ; t move. He didn' ; t go around there. That was a terrible night. HANSON: Did you ever feel, during that terrible night, that you had let loose of something that you couldn' ; t get no control over? WOODS: Yes, absolutely. I felt that this thing seemed to be slipping some and we might not be able to control those folks. When Shores' ; home was bombed, we had a similar situation. A Black man was killed out there. The Black man, police shot him and he favored Shuttlesworth. We often said that they thought they were shooting Shuttlesworth. Blacks were throwing rocks and Bull Conner' ; s armored car was up there that he drove. They were shooting. It was a terrible situation up there. I never will forget things sort of quieted down and an old drunk lady picked up a rock. I said, " ; Madame, what are you going to do with that rock?" ; She said, " ; I' ; m going to throw this rock at them." ; I said, " ; please don' ; t, don' ; t do that." ; I said, " ; if you throw the rock they are going to shoot." ; She said, " ; I don' ; t care, so and so." ; I said, " ; what do you want to achieve by throwing that?" ; She said, " ; I' ; m going to [inaudible]." ; She didn' ; t pay me any attention. She went on up there and she threw that rock. After she threw that rock, the police started shooting. The bullets were going over our head and hitting the trees. Everybody was running. HANSON: Scared. WOODS: So, I ran and hid behind a tree. So, everybody else was gone and the police [inaudible] they had their guns drawn. They said, " ; you so and so get in the house." ; I said, " ; officers, I' ; m helping y' ; all." ; They said, " ; we don' ; t want your so and so help. Get yourself inside." ; They had the big guns, so I went on down the street. I saw some people looking out the windows. They said, " ; get in the house." ; So, I went up on the porch and knocked on the door. These people would not open the door. I guess they were so terrified. So, they said, " ; get in there." ; I didn' ; t tell them that I didn' ; t live there. So, I just got up in the door and sort of pulled the screen door as close as it would come. A Negro across the street came out with a shotgun. He shot the shotgun and they went over there. They, I thought they were going to shoot him. They beat him up and they dragged him off the porch. It was a terrible night. HANSON: What calmed it down? WOODS: Well, after they stopped throwing and they ran us off out of that area...of course, when I came off the porch, I was afraid to just walk in the street openly, so I kind of maneuvered up under the houses. I kind of made my way toward the project under the people' ; s houses. I didn' ; t want to be out where they could see me. Finally, I was able to inch toward the projects and go to one of the houses in the projects. One of my members lived there and I called my wife to come and get me on the back side. She came after me. We experienced some terrible times during the bombings. I just can' ; t remember how many bombings there were. Also, remember when the state troopers came in here? They came to beat us up. My brother got hit a time, or two. They struck at me. You had to learn to be quick. I guess through my quickness, I avoided alot of licks. HANSON: Did any of you in the leadership, when all of these counter things were happening and you were getting more bombings and were getting people that weren' ; t part of your movement, did any of you think that maybe our strategy isn' ; t working? Maybe we have to reevaluate? WOODS: Well, earlier and, of course, when the threats were coming and they came continuously. HANSON: Yes. WOODS: Nigger you better get out of town. You' ; re going to be next. We' ; re going to get you. The police constantly cruising back and forth. The Klan folk in the cars and what-not. You just didn' ; t know what was going to happen. So, often at night we would get on the floor, because we didn' ; t know the folk meant what they said. They were going to do it then, or not. It was a constant, it was a constant thing. You just had to learn not to be afraid. Answer the telephone, you know, not being fearful. Try to say something nice to them. I guess they had a machine, or something to call up because the phone would just ring constantly. You had to take the phone off the hook.Threats, threats, threats. It just became common place. My wife got used to it. My family got used to it. They were part of the movement. So, pretty soon after quite a bit of that we were baptized. So, we just took it in stride. If they are going to bomb us, or kill us, so be it. HANSON: Did most of this happen after the children' ; s march downtown? Or was it just constant throughout all of it? WOODS: Well, even before King came in here I was working with Shuttlesworth. So, it started from then and it continued throughout. Sometimes worse than other times. It was something you had to learn to live with. If you were fearful you would get out of town, you see. HANSON: What brought about the decision to march on Washington? What was the [inaudible]? Cause you went to Atlanta and worked with... WOODS: After we got the accord. HANSON: The Birmingham accord? WOODS: That' ; s right. It was negotiated by David Vann, who was the go-between man. We would often meet out at Miles College. We thought he was not offering enough. The White community was offering too much and this sort of thing. Of course, he finally worked out an accord. We had a selective buying campaign going on downtown. We had a strangle hold on the merchants. So, the accord was worked out. We got what we asked them for, desegregation of lunch counters and not to press charges and so forth and so on. That sort of thing. After that we got [inaudible] about the march on Washington. Of course, I was asked to come to Atlanta to serve as the deputy director for pulling the march together. I later found out my good friend, Dr. C. K. Steele, who was one of the vice-presidents, recommended me. I had invited him to our church to speak. He spent some time with me and I made some kind of impression on him. So, he told them that I could do the job. So, I worked out of King' ; s office. In traveling around the south, southeast and back and forth to New York, just about every weekend...my job was to mobilize planes and trains, car pools, buses and what-not so we could have a huge number of people up in Washington. That' ; s what we were shooting at. We knew politicians could count and we were afraid. Dr. King' ; s concerns were that we wouldn' ; t have enough people up there. So, I kept him posted as to the progress that I was making with my mobilization. Just about each week we would meet up at the Urban League in New York. [inaudible] Rustin, would be there. A. Phillip Randolph would be there. The head of the NAACP would be there. Head of the Urban League, SNCC, White religious leaders, White labor leaders and what-not would be there. We would then make our report. So, things were looking good. The last thing I mobilized was a train to start in the lower part of Florida and as it moved up the course pick up [inaudible] at the various cities. It was a long train. I rode that train. It was a Freedom Train. I' ; ve got to find my information on it, because no one has talked about it. When we got to Washington and we looked and we saw people coming from everywhere. It looked like a number [inaudible]. We were happy. HANSON: Was it a shock? WOODS: It wasn' ; t a shock. We didn' ; t expect that many folks. We were afraid we weren' ; t going to get enough. To tell you the truth, the park rangers finally gave us 250,000, but we had over half a million folks there. I never will forget being there at the Lincoln Memorial and Lincoln sitting in this huge chair. I was standing right in front of him. King was a little further out with his guards around him. You could see all that massive humanity around that reflection pool. Electric was in the air. [inaudible] Jackson was singing. Then, King got up and gave his " ; I Have a Dream" ; speech. I' ; m telling you, you just should have been there. You' ; ve heard it but not being there you couldn' ; t feel what went on. That huge crowd of people and one voice. I' ; m telling you we were really charged and lifted up. He told us to go on back to Alabama, Mississippi, wherever. HANSON: Come back and do what? WOODS: To go back and to go to work. So, that was a tremendous experience, the march. It was successful. We had gotten an accord. The march was successful. Prior to that, I had also been tapped to go on some of King' ; s speaking engagements. His schedule had gotten so heavy they were asking him to come to various parts of the country. He couldn' ; t fill all those obligations. So, I was honored to be one of the preachers to go and fill some of his engagements, because it was important. They were going to send a good check back. So, my first time out I went to Long Island, New York. I' ; ll never forget that, because the plane had motor trouble. It had to try to get back to the airport in Atlanta and I was praying, " ; Lord, I want to do some more preaching for you." ; We did get back and I was late and wasn' ; t going to get to Long Island in time. They told me to get off and go to New Jersey. They would have a helicopter waiting for me. So, when I got off in New Jersey there was this great big helicopter and I got on the helicopter and they took me over to Long Island. I got there in time to speak. I never will forget that speaking engagement. We had been successful now with the accord and the march on Washington. The sick minded folk, the Klan, was not going to let us rejoice. They decided that they would show us, that they would pull the ultimate of horror out of their book. This is when the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church was bombed on the 15th. I heard the blast. I was getting ready to go to church. We had been hearing blasts and what we would do was come out and go near it and finally we would find out where it was and go to it. There were blasts in Birmingham often. That' ; s why we called it " ; Bombingham." ; So, I started toward it and after I got some distance I started asking people. They said they believed it was Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. So, I made a bee-line for it. I had to park about two blocks away, because all the authorities were around it and had it roped off and everything. So, I walked up to the church and you could smell this dynamite smoke. People were wailing, crying, hollering, some were cursing. Some were breathing out threats and what-not, what we ought to do. So, it was a terrible, terrible situation. You had a numb feeling. You felt a little guilt, you say " ; now, if it hadn' ; t been for us these little girls would not be dead," ; you see. If they wanted to kill somebody why didn' ; t they kill us. These innocent little girls. Your righteous rage took over and if you had a weapon you could mow White folk down and you would just mow them down in retaliation. You had to get a hold of yourself. Terrible experience, terrible experience, seeing them hauling out these items and what-not of those little girls. It was a nauseating kind of thing. A traumatic experience. When I left there feeling bad, I went down toward my car and there was a group of Black young men with piles of rocks. Every car that passed with a White face they were throwing rocks. I got there in time, there was a little White lady on the passenger side and a little White man on the driver side. They had knocked his window out and his face was a bloody mess. They were proceeding to stone her. I walked and got in between them. They said, " ; Rev. don' ; t do this. Stop don' ; t do this, you know this is one of them." ; They were mad. They were hot. They picked up stones and started to throw them at me. So, I backed off. I said then that this thing was getting out of hand. We' ; re not going to be able to keep control of Black folk all the time under these kinds of provocative circumstances. So, that is what happened in that situation. You know, that same day instead of there being a remorseful attitude throughout the city, some young White boys shot Virgil Ware off his bicycle on the outskirts of town. Some Black boys, who were upset and angry about the death of these little girls, were doing the only thing that these boys could do, they were throwing rocks. The police came out and the police would pursue them and they would run. This particular time someone threw rocks and the police pursued them and one policeman took his shotgun and shot one of these young boys in the back and killed him. I' ; ll never forget him. He was a member of my father' ; s church. I was asked to preach his funeral. We had his funeral over at New Pilgrim. So, it wasn' ; t just four little girls who died in that blood bath as a result of that hate. It was two little boys, too and we don' ; t say too much about them. Ware and Jackson, this young man who was shot in the back. The policeman didn' ; t have to kill him because he threw rocks. So, that showed you how remorseful some people were. Soon after that, the first interracial committee met. I was one of the persons on that committee. We met at city hall. I never will forget that day. Mayor Boutwell came in, tears were coming down his cheek. I always thought they were crocodile tears, I never thought he was serious. By the same token, we met at a strategy session trying to [inaudible] and some other folk. He was a huge man and he was crying. I said, " ; what is this, I can' ; t believe these White folk are really touched like that." ; You know, we were enjoined to so far as marching was concerned and demonstrations. The judge handed down an injunction and I was part of the strategy committee wherever they met. This particular time, after the judge handed down that injunction, Dr. King' ; s daddy was there, I think Wyatt was there, most of us was there. We were debating that we had never had this before. We can' ; t buck a judge' ; s injunction because we would be guilty of contempt and we would be put in jail. So, the sentiment was that we could not violate the injunction. Dr. King was just sitting there and all at once he got up and I thought he was just going to refresh himself. But he comes back with his marching clothes on and he announces to us that we could do what we wanted to do, but he had to march, injunction, or no injunction, contempt or no contempt. That settled that. (Laughing) HANSON: So you all marched? WOODS: There was nothing else we could do. I think his daddy tried to talk to him, but he said he had to march. So, he did. I believe that was on Good Friday when he went to jail again. So, I' ; ll stop there. HANSON: Let me ask you a question, Rev. Woods. Yours is a incredible story. You partook in history, that is something remarkable. What final message do you want to say to future generations that might see what we' ; re talking about. It was a part of history, it was, maybe, in someways less complicated, cause things were very clear. What would you say to future generations? WOODS: I would say to future generations that if you are not willing to die for something, you' ; re not fit to live. When a struggle is going on in your day and time, take the advice of Dr. King. When there' ; s a good fight going on, get in it. I' ; m glad I got in it. Looking back, if I had not been involved I would be ashamed of myself. But I' ; m proud of the fact that I had enough commitment to be a part of the struggle and to associate [with] Shuttlesworth when they called him the chief fool and called all us little fools following Shuttlesworth. We thought about it sometime and we didn' ; t like to be called that, but we continued to follow him. They said we were crazy, he was crazy and this sort of thing. I' ; m glad that I didn' ; t succumb to the position of status quo but that I was willing to suffer if need be and give my life as an installment payment on freedom. My message to young people is that you' ; ve got to be willing to stand up for something and you' ; ve got to stand up. As Dr. King said, " ; they can' ; t ride you by if you stand up, you' ; re somebody." ; We all had to come to understand that. We had to understand that Black is beautiful. That regardless of the color of your skin, God had endowed us with intelligence. That we were capable of doing anything that anybody else was doing and do some things better. The legacy of Dr. King is that you' ; re somebody, that you have some power to help change your situation. HANSON: Thank you, Rev Woods. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AWoods1998.xml AWoods1998.xml
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Rev. Abraham Woods Jr.
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Rev. Abraham Woods Jr. discusses working in Birmingham before working closely with Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth as a vice-president of ACMHR. He drove look out for Rev. Shuttlesworth during the attempt to integrate Phillips High School, participated in bus sit-ins and attended the March on Washington.
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19980430W
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011
16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963
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1998-04-30
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video
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a6a880aff6fba6a053901b1b75bf23a4
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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Virginia Volker
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=VVolker1996.xml
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Pizitz (Department store)
Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights
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5.4 June 26, 1996 Virginia Volker 19960626V 1:03:34 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Meaghan Cash Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham SNCC Pizitz (Department store) Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights Virginia Volker Horace Huntley Video 1:|10(8)|33(3)|46(12)|62(4)|72(8)|83(14)|101(7)|117(11)|130(13)|142(4)|158(11)|170(10)|183(14)|192(14)|207(5)|223(16)|236(4)|253(12)|270(13)|293(2)|305(5)|321(4)|333(1)|344(1)|357(9)|369(12)|400(1)|412(9)|429(12)|441(5)|451(13)|468(4)|481(3)|494(1)|506(9)|523(6)|536(12)|548(11)|565(7)|588(5)|604(2)|614(4)|630(8)|653(6)|668(13)|680(2)|698(10)|706(4)|721(16)|734(2)|749(6)|765(11)|781(11)|798(15)|811(3)|822(11)|835(6)|848(10)|860(9)|870(10)|882(7)|899(3)|913(7) 0 https://youtu.be/dlMtG3Ti9xo YouTube video English 22 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Virginia Volker Dr. Horace Huntley opens up the interview by introducing Ms. Volker. Lawson Community College Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Civil rights movement ; Miles College 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute 33.481, -86.9089 17 Miles College https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI homepage 111 Early Life and Family Background Where were you born? Ms. Volker discusses her upbringing and family life as a young child. She also discusses her family's history. Education ; Free State of Winston ; Homestead Acts ; Tenant Farming ; Wilson's Raiders Civil War ; Jasper (Ala.) ; Walker County (Ala.) ; Winston County (Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI homepage 490 Remembering Race Relations as a Child Do you remember any relationships with Blacks in your childhood? Ms. Volker comments on race relations in her community as a child. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Jasper (Ala.) ; Race relations ; Sylacauga (Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI homepage 725 Growing up with Siblings and Early Education You were the oldest of three children and so you were sort of the trailblazer for you two siblings. Ms. Volker discusses growing up with younger siblings and remembers her early school days in Jasper, Alabama. Religion Christmas ; Early childhood education ; Hanukkah ; Jasper (Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI homepage 897 Becoming Aware of Social Justice Issues You said you moved from Jasper to Sylacauga. Did your family move? Ms. Volker discusses becoming aware of social justice issues while in High School. Beta Club ; Freedom Fighters ; High School ; Public Libraries ; Supreme Court ; United Methodist Church African Americans--Segregation ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka ; Jasper (Ala.) ; Methodist Youth Fellowship (U.S.) ; Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 ; NAACP Collection (Library of Congress) ; Sylacauga (Ala.) ; Walker County (Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI homepage 1569 Visiting Birmingham and Experience with the Klan in Sylacauga How often did you come to Birmingham? Ms. Volker remembers visiting Birmingham and an experience she had with with the Ku Klux Klan. Klan Parade ; Ku Klux Klan Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham-Southern College ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Sylacauga (Ala.) 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI homepage 1757 Attending College and Becoming Involved with the Movement After you then finished high school in 1958, what did you do? Did you go to college? Ms. Volker relates her experiences while attending college and becoming involved with the Civil Rights Movement. Brotherhood Tea ; Dean Healey ; First Methodist Church ; Integration ; Protests ; Sit-ins SNCC ; Stillman College (Tuscaloosa, Ala.) ; Tuscaloosa (Ala.) ; University of Alabama 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI homepage 2371 Involvement with the Movement after Undergraduate School So in 1963? Ms. Volker discusses her involvement and experiences with the Movement after graduating from the University of Alabama. 6th Avenue Baptist Church ; Demonstrations ; Paul Greenberg ; Protests ; Thurgood Methodist Church 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing, Birmingham, Ala., 1963 ; A.G. Gaston Motel (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Civil rights movement ; National guard ; Pizitz (Department store) ; U.S. states--Race relations 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI homepage 3426 Life in Birmingham after Graduate School What happens in the life of Virginia Volker after 1963 and '64? Ms. Volker describes her life in Birmingham after completing graduate school and continuing her involvement with the Civil Rights Movement. Annie Crouse ; Deenie Drew ; Ester Brown ; Friendship in Action ; Helen Lewis ; Pals for American Women ; Peggy Fuller ; Sally Davis ; Unitarian Church Birmingham (Ala.) ; United States--Race relations 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI homepage 3701 Conclusion of Interview Virginia, we've taken about an hour and a half and I certainly appreciate your time. Maybe we need to just do this again some time, but I want to thank you for coming. Interview is concluded. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history interview Oral History Virginia Volker discusses her involvement with the Movement throughout her education at the University of Alabama at Birmingham. She went on to be actively involved in public education and community politics in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: We are here with Virginia Volker for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 26, 1996. Thank you Ms. Volker for taking time out of your schedule to come and sit with us today to talk about your experiences in growing up in Birmingham and how you have related to the Movement. It' ; s a pleasure having you here. Tell me a bit about yourself. What are you doing now? VOLKER: Thank you, Dr. Huntley. I really appreciate all the work you' ; re doing in this arena. Currently I' ; m a faculty member at the University of Alabama at Birmingham in the Biology Department. I teach anatomy, pathophysiology and a number of the health sciences. In addition to that I have been involved in a number of community projects and this summer, as part of my UAB work, I' ; m also serving as Campus Coordinator for the UAB/Miles College/Lawson Community College/Titusville 2000 Project, which we have a HUD grant that we are operating from. HUNTLEY: Is it Ms. Volker or Dr. Volker? VOLKER: How about M-S. Ms. I don' ; t have a doctorate. I have two masters degrees. HUNTLEY: Well, two masters ought to add up to a doctorate. VOLKER: Well, I' ; ll be glad to take it if you take the salary with it, but it doesn' ; t work that way. HUNTLEY: Where were you born? VOLKER: I was born in Jasper, Alabama. HUNTLEY: Were your parents originally from Jasper? VOLKER: My parents were from the Walker County area, yes. HUNTLEY: Brothers and sisters, how many do you have? VOLKER: I have one brother and one sister. They are both younger. I' ; m the oldest child. HUNTLEY: Your mother and father, tell me just a bit about their educational background. VOLKER: It was rather limited as far as formal education. My mother said she went to school three days. I don' ; t know what the truth is. My father had more education, but they were certainly part of the rural, come to the small town type people in the Walker County area. Walker County is a very depressed area of the state. Or, it was at that time. My parents come from rather modest means. My father, they liked to say, they were land rich, but money poor. In fact, probably his family had homesteaded there under some of the Homestead Acts that came about before the turn of the century. My mother had a similar background although my grandfather on my mother' ; s side was sometimes a miner. HUNTLEY: Coal miner? VOLKER: Yes, coal miner. Coal was one of the main industries in Walker County. And he also was at times a tenant farmer. On my fathers side what I know about their background is that part of the family were people who were opposing seceding from the union. HUNTLEY: In Walker County? VOLKER: In Walker County. We hear about the Free State of Winston and the efforts that were made in Winston County to try to not join the Union during the Civil War times, but Walker County is essentially next door to Winston County and so there were groups of people in that region, in fact all across north Alabama. And, apparently, some of the slogans in north Alabama around the time that (Inaudible) was building for the Civil War, they were saying that would be a rich man' ; s war, a poor man' ; s fight and very much were opposed joining in with the Confederacy. Supposedly my father' ; s father or my father' ; s grandfather was involved in " ; giving aid and comfort" ; to the Union soldiers. I think it was Wilson' ; s Raiders that came through. I found this out through some genealogical study that they were thought to be sympathizers with the Union and were in fact reimbursed for giving food and whatever else he gave to some of Wilson' ; s Raiders as they came through Walker County. So, I suspect I came from a long line of people that followed their own principals and own values rather than just succumbing to what was going on around them. HUNTLEY: We are very much aware that only 20 to 25% of Whites in the South actually owned slaves. So that meant that 80% basically did not. I' ; m assuming that is what you mean when you talk about this war being a rich man' ; s war. VOLKER: And a poor man' ; s fight because, well, from what I' ; ve read of that history is that it was the more affluent, south Alabama people that had slaves. You didn' ; t have the big farms, the big plantations in Walker County. They were coal miners and small farmers. So they had no need for slaves really. At least some historians I' ; ve read portrayed what was happening in Alabama around that time, that there was actually a fight going on between North Alabama and South Alabama. I don' ; t know if you read much of that. HUNTLEY: And, that' ; s a continuing struggle. VOLKER: It certainly is. And, in fact I think nationwide we' ; re sometimes still fighting the Civil War. At least some of us here in the south. HUNTLEY: Tell me just a bit about your upbringing. What do you remember about your childhood? VOLKER: I was reared in Jasper. I lived in the town for awhile. My father was a Methodist minister, kind of a circuit rider. He was also a small businessman. He was a barber. I understand before I was born he had a grocery store. My mother didn' ; t work part of the time and, then part of the time she worked as an LPN, a Licensed Practical Nurse. And, as we got older she worked as a pie baker. HUNTLEY: A pie baker? VOLKER: Yes, in local restaurants. She was a pastry cook I think was the title she used. So, I had a rather quiet, very conventional childhood in many ways. I went to church a great deal. HUNTLEY: Well, with your father being a minister. VOLKER: I went to the Methodist church when the doors were opened and when the doors were closed also. And my parents also were very insistent that we go to other churches in the community. We also went to churches with our various relatives when we visited with them all over Walker County area. So I know a lot about all of the small town churches. That was part of my socialization and my outreach and being more involved. HUNTLEY: Do you remember any relationships with Blacks in your childhood? VOLKER: I do. I do, interestingly enough. I' ; ve wondered often why I would be so conscious of race because I felt like a number of my peers were not, but it may be because where I lived within Jasper there was a very clear dividing line. There was a railroad track and on one side was the White community and on the other side was the Black community. I lived close enough to the Black community, on my side of the railroad track, that I could sit in my front yard and if I really looked and peered closely, I could see some of what was happening across the track, which was in some ways forbidden territory. But my father had interactions with people in the Black community. He raised goats supposedly to have goat milk because he thought that was healthy. And, apparently he had some friends in the Black community that raised goats. So, one of the things we would do, is we would go across the tracks, and sometimes I would get up to go with him to visit and look at goats. If my mother and I went along we obviously interacted with whole families, so I became very aware that there were differences. I think subconsciously I picked up that people behaved differently around the race issue. I was very aware of that at an early age. HUNTLEY: Did you have Blacks working in your home for your mother and your father? VOLKER: On very rare occasions. We were at a low enough income that we didn' ; t have that very often. But sometimes there would be Black people come by and help do odd jobs around the house. HUNTLEY: How old were you at that particular time? I know you lived in Jasper and you would eventually move to Sylacauga? VOLKER: I did not move to Sylacauga until I was in high school. HUNTLEY: Did you ever have any Black friends? As I grew up in Birmingham we actually had White friends because they lived on one street and they lived on the other. Was that the same case with you in Jasper? VOLKER: I really don' ; t recall that. I remember being aware of interacting briefly with Black children. (Inaudible) and I would go in the Black community with my father. One of the things that I remember is, I guess it was very typical of Black community of the South at that time. But, what I as a child found fascinating was, that people had gold fish ponds in their home. If you didn' ; t live in that area and if you don' ; t know anything about that, you cannot imagine why anybody would just dig out and make a home crafted gold fish pond. But, a lot of people did and I guess it was a kind of art that people in the Black community engaged in more than the White community as far as having gold fish. So I remember going in the Black community and observing the gold fish and there would be Black children around that I would interact with. There were probably Black children that passed my house that we may have interacted with some, but I don' ; t have a deep recollection of that like you have and like I' ; ve heard other people talking about. HUNTLEY: You were the oldest of three children and so you were sort of the trail blazer for your two siblings. How did that impact upon your growing up, having two younger siblings? Did you have to help around the house? VOLKER: I did. But I was five years old before my brother was born. So, it really got ingrained in me that sense of being an only child and I probably had that mentality of being the only child, but also with a brother and sister. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your school days and growing up in Jasper? VOLKER: I loved school. I guess that' ; s why I still work in a school. I really enjoyed going to school. I remember my first grade teacher, Miss Hollis. I can' ; t say she taught me to read because my mother had taught me to read before I went to school, but I certainly remember her. I remember it was an all White school. Race was not a particular issue at that time. I don' ; t remember anything about that being discussed in school. There was one race -- there was White folks. I remember being aware of religious differences in that there were several Jewish children in my class with me throughout my elementary school career and I know that it must have been very difficult for the Jewish children in Jasper because it was a very small community and their parents really worked hard to help their children be included. I remember the parents of one of my Jewish friends always brought goodies to school for Christmas. And, so we always talk about Christmas and we did talk about Hanukkah, which I think was probably unusual for an Alabama small town school in the 1940s. But, I think that has to do with the perseverance and the dedication of some of the Jewish parents had at that time and probably the openness that some of the school teachers had. So I was aware that they were different. Something was different about them. They didn' ; t celebrate Christmas, but yes, they did celebrate Christmas and we certainly interacted and visited some in each other' ; s homes. HUNTLEY: You said you moved from Jasper to Sylacauga. Did your family move? VOLKER: My family moved to Sylacauga when I was in high school, which would have been in 1954, the Supreme Court decision year. I remember being aware about that time of what was happening in the world around me. HUNTLEY: You remember being aware of Brown v. The Board of Education? VOLKER: I was aware of that having taken place. HUNTLEY: How did that impact upon your environment? VOLKER: Not at all at that point. I remember hearing a lot of discussion about those Supreme Court judges and how everybody hated them. I think one of the things that probably was a real support and helpful to me in growing up was the ability to go to the library and the fact that my parents always encouraged me to go to the library, took me to the library. The public libraries of that time, and this would have been in Jasper, before I actually moved to Sylacauga, the public libraries did have a lot of the books, the autobiographies of boys and girls who made good. The books did include stories of Sojourner Truth and Harriet Tubman and George Washington Carver, those kind of classic people, as well the Lucretia Motts and the Elizabeth Cady Stantons and I ended up reading a lot of biography and for whatever hundreds of reasons, I very quickly identified with that group of people and felt a kinship. HUNTLEY: What group of people are you talking about? VOLKER: The group of people whose biographies that I would be reading as a child. The freedom fighters, the abolitionists, those groups of people. So, I became aware of struggles around justice issues and the door was not perfect. It probably just had something to do with just being White and Southern. I think there' ; s a White Southern mentality of a kind of complex of somewhere between inferiority and defiance that sort of is in the milieu around us -- that we grew up with in Walker County. HUNTLEY: You are saying that these individuals who were revolutionaries, you were sort of attracted to them. At what point in your life do you think that was taking place? Or when did you first realize it? VOLKER: I think that must have been somewhere between the 5th grade and the 7th and 8th grade. That would have been early 1950s. HUNTLEY: Was that different than your peers? VOLKER: Yes. HUNTLEY: Did you stand out as a result of that? Were you one of those people who was looked at by your peers as being different? VOLKER: I felt different. I was a child that made good grades and I minded the teacher and I was sometimes called ' ; the teachers pet' ; and ' ; the preacher' ; s kid' ; . HUNTLEY: A goody two-shoes? VOLKER: Goody two-shoes, that was me. I carried my Bible. It didn' ; t particularly bother me. I' ; m not aware of it bothering me at that point. HUNTLEY: How did your peers treat you as a result of the way they perceive you? VOLKER: At that point, I don' ; t recall any problem. HUNTLEY: Were you involved in extra-curricular activities? VOLKER: In high school I did. In junior high school, not very much. In fact, if they existed, I don' ; t recall them. And, also my family was very private. My family was into protecting me in some respects so they probably encouraged me staying at home reading, rather than being involved with whatever was happening around me. So hence, my link to the world was what I was getting on the news media, on the newspapers and what I was reading. HUNTLEY: Did that change when you got in high school? VOLKER: Oh, that changed in high school. I deliberately made an effort to get more involved to make friends. HUNTLEY: What were you involved in in high school that sticks out in your mind? VOLKER: I remember Beta Club. HUNTLEY: Beta Club was what? VOLKER: An honor society. HUNTLEY: Was that math honors? VOLKER: Just in general honors. I was active in the church during my high school years then. The Methodist Youth Fellowship (MYF). I remember during that time the winds of change were certainly upon us and issues were discussed in my church. I remember one incident, several interesting discussions around when I was still in high school. The literature that we were receiving from the Methodist headquarters nationally had pictures of Black and White people sitting together. And there were big controversies about could we use this literature with our young people. HUNTLEY: It would have an impact upon the way you viewed the world? VOLKER: That' ; s right. Maybe they were right. It would. It did. But just the fact that it became a controversy and for whatever reason, I immediately thought, " ; Well, there' ; s nothing wrong with this." ; My mother is very conservative acting. A very " ; Don' ; t rock the boat" ; person. My father said it was okay to state your case and stand up. There side would be " ; Yes, it would be okay to use the literature." ; I guess it proved that the predominant group in that church brought to bear that it would prevail because I remember we did use that kind of literature. HUNTLEY: Was this the Methodist church? VOLKER: The United Methodist Church -- North Alabama Conference. HUNTLEY: Why did you move from Jasper to Sylacauga? VOLKER: By that time my father was not being a minister anymore and it was a better business opportunity for him. He was a barber. HUNTLEY: Were there any incidents in high school, not necessarily racial, that sort of stand out in your mind, about your experiences in high school? There are any number of things that I can think of that I was involved in during high school days that probably had an impact upon my going in one direction or another. Do you have any of those? VOLKER: I think probably what was happening nationally was when I was in high school, Sputnik had come along. There was a big effort to build the space ships. We were beginning to engage in the space race. Sputnik was in ' ; 58 when I was a senior. Before that it had been building, so there was a lot of concern that science was important and very much like we are today, that " ; Gee, our students in the United States are going to get left behind in science if we don' ; t do something." ; And, I think because I made good grades in science and I made good grades in everything. But because I made good grades in science I got attention. So I was in science fairs. I got special attention for being the only girl that would take physics in a group of all guys. The teacher was a guy but he was really very nice. I think my high school biology teacher, Miss Heaton, I think that had an impact to have a woman as a science person that I interacted with when I was enjoying science and for her to encourage me. I tend to think that was important because if she had not been there, I don' ; t know, I may have still found my way in science, but that was a kind of way of saying, hey, it' ; s okay for women to be in science. It' ; s okay for us to cut open frogs and look at microscopes and do those things that girls really were not supposed to do then. HUNTLEY: There were a number of racial issues were taking place because, as you said Brown v. Board happened in 1954. In 1955 they had the Montgomery Bus Boycott. In 1956 we had the outlawing of the NAACP in the state and, then the development of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. And, of course, in ' ; 56 you had a number of bombings with Shuttlesworth, was that in any way in your awareness? VOLKER: I think I was aware of it in reading about it, but Sylacauga was 50 miles and worlds away from Birmingham. Sylacauga was very much a predominantly White city. There was a Black population but it was almost invisible to me at that point. I didn' ; t even know where the Black schools were, it was that kind of community that I was moving in at that time. I do remember being aware of the bus boycotts and feeling a kinship with that struggle. I remember one of the times riding a bus from Sylacauga to Birmingham and deliberately going to the back of the bus to sit, to show my identification with that. And some of the older Black people that were sitting in the back, said, " ; Honey, you go up there and sit." ; I said, " ; Oh, no, I' ; ll just sit here, I' ; m fine." ; It was my naivete. But, again it was like I was saying, " ; Hey, I' ; m identifying with this." ; Although I wasn' ; t saying that and probably because I was young and a female, you could do those things. Whereas I think had I been a guy and did that there might have been a problem. And certainly if it had been the reverse, if a young Black woman had sat down in the front of the bus that would have been a major problem. HUNTLEY: Did any of the Whites on the bus say anything to you about sitting in the back? VOLKER: I don' ; t remember. I think they just ignored it. HUNTLEY: How often did you come to Birmingham? VOLKER: Every now and then, but not a tremendous amount of time. But, I do remember doing that on several occasions. HUNTLEY: Were you alone when you came to Birmingham? VOLKER: Yes, I would be alone. HUNTLEY: Why would you come to Birmingham? What would be the occasions for you to come? VOLKER: I don' ; t know. I think sometimes I came up to look at the schools here. I remember going to Birmingham Southern a weekend, that kind of thing. HUNTLEY: After you finished high school, what was it around 1960? VOLKER: I finished high school in ' ; 58. HUNTLEY: Okay. Things are really heating up. VOLKER: Yes. But, let me tell you before we finish with the Sylacauga experience. I remember that the Klan was very active there. It was Klan territory. My family was far removed from it but I do remember one day, a Saturday afternoon in the summer, there was a Klan parade downtown. I remember stumbling on it. I think my mother was with me and a girl friend. I remember my girl friend and I started throwing rocks and yelling and the Klan parade, calling them cowards or something like that. And, my mother was just freaking out. It was like, " ; Come on, you' ; re going to get us killed. Let' ; s go. Let' ; s go." ; And she was pulling us away and getting us home from that incident. I remember her talking about being fearful that they would know who we were and that we would have a cross burned on our house or our house burned down. HUNTLEY: Was there ever an ... VOLKER: That never happened. Again, we were White kids. You know your White kids could throw some rocks, you know there is some White privilege going on there. If it had been Black kids throwing rocks, that wouldn' ; t have been the same. HUNTLEY: Were there any reactions from the Klan? VOLKER: They just sort of looked at us. HUNTLEY: Were they hooded? VOLKER: Yes. They just sort of chalked it up to children' ; s pranks. They didn' ; t understand the depth of our feelings about that. HUNTLEY: Now that you mention it, I can remember my aunt lived in Columbus, Georgia so we would always go 280. And in the Sylacauga area, on several occasions the Klan was stopping cars, asking for donations. But, I remember when we got to them they didn' ; t ask us for anything, they just let us through. I remember that because I remember coming across the mountain and through the (Inaudible). So, that' ; s interesting that you actually saw the Klan and you were incensed by what they represented so you reacted to that. After you then finished high school in 1958, what did you do? Did you go to college.VOLKER: I went to college at the University of Alabama at Tuscaloosa. HUNTLEY: Now, this is in the heat of things as well. VOLKER: What I basically remember around the civil rights issues in college were during my junior and senior year was having my own group of friends that believed like I believed. That we thought the Civil Rights Movement was the way to go and we were beginning to feel left out in Tuscaloosa. We were reading about college students in other places making their protests and expressing themselves and here we were sitting in dull old Tuscaloosa, Alabama on the university campus. Somehow by the time I was beginning my senior year, some member of my group had a contact with Stillman College, which was the small, private Black college in Tuscaloosa. We ended up somehow arranging for several of us to go from the university campus to Stillman campus. We met and we called it a brotherhood tea. By that time we were aware that there were brotherhood Sundays and brotherhood teas. That' ; s was what people of good will in churches tried to do then. If anybody knows what a brotherhood tea is, it' ; s when Black and White people can stand in a room and they drink their tea and the world didn' ; t fall apart because they were in the same room doing something social together. And, that sounds silly today, but... HUNTLEY: But those kinds of meetings were illegal at the time. VOLKER: They were illegal and it was a very high anxiety type of event for people to do. Certainly for White people, probably for the Black people. In fact, I remember one of my classmates, back to Sylacauga, one of my classmates was a minister' ; s son in Sylacauga and somewhere around that time, they had a brotherhood Sunday tea at the First Methodist Church in Sylacauga and after that there was a cross burned in front of the church. HUNTLEY: It was suggested that you went from the University of Alabama to Stillman, did you ever have students from Stillman to come to the University of Alabama? VOLKER: Didn' ; t do that. We didn' ; t do that. We were prudent, pragmatic or coward, whichever way you want to talk about. But, we ended up a group about a dozen or 15 of us from the University of Alabama campus that we knew each other and we felt strongly that we should be doing our share to promote Civil Rights. We started meeting with some people at Stillman and I' ; m not sure how that group of students got pulled together, but we interacted enough that we became friends with some people. HUNTLEY: And this was always on Stillman campus? VOLKER: On Stillman campus. We talked about coming over to the University of Alabama campus, but always the decision was made - no. HUNTLEY: In 1960 demonstrations were going on all over the South with the sit-in struggle. Of course starting in North Carolina and, then coming into South Carolina and Georgia. Was there an effort in Tuscaloosa? VOLKER: We did that. I know there was more happening than what I was involved in, but our small group of college students of Stillman and University, we decided that we wanted to do some sit-ins at churches. I remember that we planned several and I remember one I participated in we participated in the Westminster Center, probably it was like the students for Presbyterian. Or it may have been the Presbyterian Church. It was somewhere nearby our campus. We carefully planned our agenda, how we were going to have some Black students to show up and, if they got in, we would see what was going to happen. And, then we were going to come and be their support with these students from the University campus. And, interestingly enough at that particular church, the Westminster campus, they seated the Black students. HUNTLEY: What year was this? VOLKER: It must have been ' ; 61. And, so we, as the White students in there, well, we were coming in, so we didn' ; t know anything else to do but go down and sit beside them. So, obviously we were all together. And, I remember afterward some elders of the church came out. Some were obviously University faculty. They actually spoke and were pleasant. So it was like no contest, no problem. We were both pleased and somewhat shocked at that reception. If it had been another kind or reception heavens knows what we would have done, because we really were not in contact with any national organization at that time. As we continued to meet we did, somehow somebody in the group had contact with a SNCC person. Several of us went to a SNCC conference in Atlanta. It must have been in ' ; 61 or ' ; 62. I found that very interesting. I still have some of the literature from that conference and actually know some of those people from that conference now. HUNTLEY: Well, that' ; s really the beginning of SNCC. It was organized in 1960. VOLKER: Yes, it was a very young organization then. HUNTLEY: And this is at the point where young, White college students were coming down from the North to get involved with SNCC, particularly in Mississippi. Was there a SNCC organization in Tuscaloosa? VOLKER: No. Not to my knowledge. But some of the people with SNCC at that Atlanta conference was just very pleased that they had some Alabama students there. Apparently we were rarities. HUNTLEY: What did you do after that? VOLKER: We continued to have our meetings, always on Stillman campus. We had a few socials. We talked about what all should be done. A lot of talk. A lot of building some friendships with each other. A lot of long night phone conversations. We always said it was a source of excitement if guys from Stillman could call the dorm, disguise their voice and ask to speak to one of the White girls in the dorm without anybody recognizing that he was Black. And, I guess, vice versa, we would call to their dorms. Toward the end of my senior year, most of us were juniors, seniors, and some graduate students, someone got wind of what we were doing and called our activities to the attention to the University of Alabama authorities. The women on our side got called in by the Dean of Women and the men got called in by the Dean of Men. HUNTLEY: What was the gender make up of the two groups? VOLKER: Probably a few more women than men. I remember Dean Healey was the dean and she proceeded to tell us how she really understood our desires to be involved in what we were doing, but that it was not safe and the University had to watch out for our safety. They were afraid we were going to get hurt by the Klan and I' ; m sure that' ; s really how they were feeling. They really wanted us to stop doing that and that the University was going to integrate soon, but they didn' ; t want any problems until the University did integrate. They asked us to not go. HUNTLEY: Did you stop? VOLKER: They did the threat of " ; You know, all of you have such good records, it would be a pity, since you' ; re so close to graduation." ; They didn' ; t say they would throw us out, but it was the threat of and we were really scared. So all of us on our side of the campus said we would not do it anymore, that we understood. What we did was to proceed to be more covert. HUNTLEY: Did the telephone calls continue? VOLKER: We tried to make them less frequent, but we still did it and we still visited. I remember I guess it was about the last week of school, we decided to be more open. We just very boldly went out and, didn' ; t do our little circuitous routes to get there. HUNTLEY: Did any of those relationships last after school? VOLKER: Yes, I maintained contact with some of the people until even the past decade. HUNTLEY: So you were finishing undergraduate school in ' ; 62? VOLKER: Right. HUNTLEY: So in 1963? VOLKER: Then I was in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: So you here during the demonstrations of ' ; 63? VOLKER: ' ; 63 was a very momentous year. HUNTLEY: Where did you live? VOLKER: I lived on the Southside. I lived sometimes in the dorm, which is now where the Radisson Hotel is. And, then sometimes I lived in an apartment building on 17th and 10th South, in an apartment building, which is now Ronald McDonald House. It did not look as nice as it does now. But, I was in graduate school in the medical school. I was studying human anatomy then. Far removed from what was happening in Birmingham at the time, but everybody was discussing what was happening with the Civil Rights Movement. Only there were other terms for it then in the White community. HUNTLEY: What were those terms? VOLKER: Let' ; s see, what were there. " ; All this Nigger business." ; " ; All this outside agitation." ; " ; Communist Plot." ; Those kinds of real derogatory terms. HUNTLEY: Was that the general feeling of people that you were associated with at the time? VOLKER: That was the feeling of some people. There were some people that were more thoughtful. There were some people that greatly " ; empathized with the Negro" ; at that time, but they just weren' ; t ready for all these changes. They needed 20 more years. They were going to set race relations back 20 years was what was being said. I remember some of my professors saying that. It burst my bubble. I thought when I was in graduate school I was going to find people that were super intelligent and agreed with everything that I agreed with. It didn' ; t work that way. There was a lot of discussion. I often found myself on the opposite side of the discussion and being very outspoken. I remember knowing about the marches downtown. I know one time I was downtown and I was around where the 5 & ; 10 cent stores were, Woolworth' ; s probably. They were coming out and I said, " ; Oh, no, I' ; m going to be in the middle of this." ; I really wanted to go join and feeling very torn between, " ; Well, gee I ought to go and be part of this sit-in or march or whatever was happening." ; But, then, " ; I can' ; t do that I' ; ll get thrown out of school. I can' ; t do that I' ; ll get my head bashed in. I can' ; t do this, I don' ; t know these people." ; You know I was feeling really torn. And, finally I thought I just better leave or I' ; m going to go and join in and I didn' ; t know what was going to happen to me. I remember feeling very torn and really identifying with what they were doing, but not knowing how to interact at that point. HUNTLEY: You didn' ; t have that support group? VOLKER: I didn' ; t have my support group. I didn' ; t have my few friends in Birmingham. But, as my year went on, I did find a few people that felt more like I did and ended up being involved with a group of young people that were meeting at Thurgood Methodist Church. HUNTLEY: This is in ' ; 63? VOLKER: This is in ' ; 63. HUNTLEY: During the demonstrations or after the demonstrations? VOLKER: I think it would have been during the demonstration time. Yes, it would have been ' ; 63 and ' ; 64. HUNTLEY: The demonstrations that are known worldwide would have happened in April and May of ' ; 63. Now, there were continuing demonstrations, but these were the biggies. Were you meeting at Thurgood at that time? VOLKER: We did meet at Thurgood. That may have been more into May and June, a little bit later. And I remember from that we did do a few minor sit-ins. They weren' ; t the massive things. HUNTLEY: Downtown? VOLKER: Downtown. I don' ; t know how much we were really linked in with any greater movement but we felt passionate. I remember we went to a Pizitz. One of the department stores had a counter and we decided to integrate and go. We paired up Black/White, Black/White and we sort of went in and monopolized the stools and they just simply closed the counter down. They didn' ; t call the police to us or anything. So, when they didn' ; t call the police and didn' ; t do anything, after a while it gets to be a waiting game, so we left. HUNTLEY: Were you served? VOLKER: No. They just simply closed the counter, said, " ; We' ; re not serving." ; They left. But they wouldn' ; t be confrontive, other than just they weren' ; t going to serve. " ; We' ; re closed." ; " ; It' ; s passed our opening hours." ; Even though we knew it was not. I continued to be involved and got more acquainted with a group of people here in Birmingham. Among those was a number of people around the Unitarian Church. I remember once incident that was really chilling to me was -- this would have been in the summer of ' ; 63. It probably would have been after some of the meetings at Thurgood or that same group of people. Some of us had also been down to the Gaston Motel. I didn' ; t have a car. This was when graduate students were really poor and some friends were bringing me home. There were several of us, Black and White, male and female. There was an attorney with us, I believe it was Paul Greenberg was with us at that time. He was one of those outside agitators as they were always called. Whoever owned the car was being the taxi and taking us all home. I was brought home to 17th Street South and as we were almost in front of my apartment, the police stopped us and wanted to know what we were doing. We just said, " ; Well, we' ; ve been to a meeting and we' ; re going home." ; First we were very tactful. We all had to get out of the car and, then the police really began to harass us. I felt what was interesting, it was very similar or certainly it reminded me of one of the scenes in Mississippi Burning, where people were stopped by the police. HUNTLEY: So was this both Blacks and Whites in the car? VOLKER: Blacks and Whites in the car. HUNTLEY: Black men and White women? VOLKER: There were Black men and White women and White men and Black women. This was before the days you wore seat belts so there was probably a lot of us in the car. HUNTLEY: Were there any incidents as a result of that? VOLKER: ...and so the policeman told the Black guys, " ; You know better than to be hanging around with these White folks. They' ; re going to get you in trouble." ; There were several policemen and one of the policemen told the White guy that was the attorney with us, Paul, " ; You even smell like a Nigger, what are you doing here." ; And, to me, he started harassing me. I guess they were implying I had sex with some Black guy. And it was like, " ; What do you want, a Nigger baby? Is that why you are hanging around with these folks?" ; I was being a really wise guy at that time and I said, " ; Well, if I had a baby, it wouldn' ; t matter what color it was." ; So, then he started bristling and he said, " ; Your daddy know you' ; re here. " ; So I proceeded to tell him my father was a minister and my father approved of Black and White people as the way Jesus wanted us to live, in an integrated society." ; And I could just see this policeman' ; s face was getting red because all these were White policemen. They were just getting redder in the face. It was even practically glowing in the dark. I could just feel him getting ready. He put his hand on his side like he was going to pull his gun or his billy club. And I thought, " ; I am going to get my head bashed in. We' ; re all going to get hurt if I don' ; t stop my wise cracks." ; And, so I said, " ; Officer, we' ; ve been to a meeting, it was about church and I' ; m going in this house right here because this is where I live." ; And I took off. They didn' ; t try to stop me and told the guys and the other women in the car " ; and go on about your business" ; and followed them to the next stop where they let some people off and, then did not harass them anymore. I guess in the meantime they had asked to see everybody' ; s IDs. So we all had fears that we were either going to lose our jobs or get thrown out of school. But, nothing happened from that but it really made me aware of how strongly people felt and how, when the authority does not protect you in expressing these basic freedoms of interaction, that it' ; s really scary and it' ; s really wrong. And, so that' ; s one of the things I remember that really made an imprint. And the more I encountered those kinds of incidences, the more I was determined to express myself because my view was just as important as anybody else' ; s, was my attitude. HUNTLEY: You mentioned something about the A. G. Gaston Motel. Did you go there with that group? VOLKER: As I recollect we had probably gone there after a meeting at Thurgood because A. G. Gaston was about the only place in town that you could go and just socialize after a meeting if you were Black and White. I think to people hearing this after the 60s -- to think about just people being Black and White in a room as leaders. They think what' ; s the big deal about that. But that was really something. HUNTLEY: It was a revolutionary act. VOLKER: It was a revolutionary act. That' ; s a good way to put it. And I remember a number of times going from groups where we were Black and White together, all kinds of people would take it upon themselves to just suddenly begin following you. I remember one time, this would have been later in ' ; 63, maybe even in ' ; 64. HUNTLEY: You said, " ; all kinds of people" ; , what do you mean? VOLKER: I mean, it' ; s just like you would be riding down the street and a group of guys in new cars... HUNTLEY: Whites or Blacks? VOLKER: White. Or rag tag old cars. They decided they were going to follow us to see what we were doing. And, I remember several times being with groups and we were out running people. One time we even got a group to follow us into the police station. Of course, the police were not much help. But we thought, " ; Well, if we drive into the police station here, maybe they' ; ll go away." ; And, they did. HUNTLEY: In August of ' ; 63 the March of Washington took place. VOLKER: I didn' ; t go. I had a test the next week and I felt I had to stay and study. I did not realize, I think I was still too young to realize the importance of the march. I had a number of friends that were going. HUNTLEY: A number of White friends? VOLKER: White and Black friends. And, I remember some of my friends brought me literature from Washington from that event that I still treasure. But, I remember watching it a great deal on TV and saying if there' ; s ever other -- marches since then, when I really feel they' ; re important, and if I can get my finances together, I go. But, I did not go to that one, simply because I was young and did not understand how important it was and I had a test on Monday. HUNTLEY: Well, what did you actually feel about that march? Afterwards you said you were not mature enough to really understand what was happening -- the magnitude of it. But, I' ; m sure as you watched it on TV. VOLKER: As I watched it on TV, it really came home. HUNTLEY: Did you think that this was a pivotal point in the history of race relations in the country? VOLKER: I didn' ; t understand that then, but in retrospect it certainly was. I remember just being very aware of being very supportive of it, having friends that were going. I do remember going on from ' ; 63, the church bombing, which took place then in September. I was still in graduate school and I remember I was home visiting with my family in Sylacauga. HUNTLEY: The morning of the bombing? VOLKER: Yes. Where we first heard about it, we were at a family outing. We were in a car driving around, it was one of those gray September days in Sylacauga. This news flash came over the car radio about it and I was just aghast and thought, " ; This is horrible." ; My parents were just like, " ; Oh, yes, it' ; s bad." ; But I was the one that was really reacting emotionally. I ended up coming back to Birmingham that night. My parents were fearful about things were really bad and maybe we shouldn' ; t go. I told them, " ; I' ; ll be fine. I' ; m going back." ; And I rode the bus back into Birmingham. A friend picked me up at the bus station downtown. I remember it was a really eerie feeling. The streets were almost deserted. HUNTLEY: That was unusual for Birmingham? VOLKER: That was very unusual at that point. There were a lot of military. The National Guard had already been called out by late evening. One of the things that I remember, of course it was on everybody' ; s mind, but one of the things that really touched me was how some people that I had argued with all the time about the importance of the Civil Rights Movement and they were taking opposite views. Some of those people -- my fellow graduate students -- came up to me and they apologized to me for the church bombing. And their feeling was, " ; Well, maybe you' ; re right. Things have gone too far. This was not right. I' ; m sorry this happened, Virginia." ; It' ; s like " ; Why are you telling me?" ; In retrospect, I realize you learn in church you learn about the importance of sacrifice and changing people' ; s behavior. Of course people who study in group psychology talk about that a great deal, but it really clicked in there somewhere that in many ways that was one of the sacrifices and a major sacrifice that helped turn this country around. HUNTLEY: That' ; s interesting that you would say that your friends came to you and in effect apologized to you for the bombing. That meant that in their minds that you were the symbol for that issue or for Black people. VOLKER: I probably was for them because I was one of the few people around -- there were other people around the university like me that were very outspoken, but I guess I was the one that some of these people knew. I know that the funeral for either one or several of the little Black girls was held in 6th Avenue Baptist Church when it was really on 6th Avenue South and I remember being at that and just standing outside with a mob of people and I remember there were several university people there. Mostly some faculty that was there. HUNTLEY: What happens in the life of Virginia Volker after 1963 and ' ; 64? You have gone through graduate school. You' ; re more mature. Do you remain in Birmingham? VOLKER: I stayed in Birmingham. I ended up getting married and getting involved with the Unitarian Church, which was one of the few churches in the White community that was taking a stand for Civil Rights. HUNTLEY: What kind of activities were you involved in with the Unitarian Church in relationship to race? VOLKER: One of the things from that group I got connected with was a group of women called Friendship in Action, which is another interesting story in and of itself. I think that was really significant for me in that I had people like Deenie Drew and Sally Davis, Helen Lewis. Those are just some names that come to the forefront. Some of the White women were Annie Crouse, Peggy Fuller and some other women who are no longer with us. But, Friendship in Action, a lot of that, in retrospect, it was an establishment group, but it was more of a middle class, liberal community group of people. HUNTLEY: What did you do? VOLKER: We said we wanted to be friends and learn to cross racial barriers on a personal level. Putting the term ' ; action' ; in our name meant that we wanted to do more than just talk, that we wanted to make things change in society around us. If I remember correctly, one of the projects that we got involved with, along with the Unitarian Church and a few others, was to have one of the first day care program that was integrated. We helped spearhead that. A lot of it though, it was simply by us talking and the things that we were involved in the community, taking a stand for improved relationships between people. Out of that grew another, more formal organization called Pals for American Women. It was started by Ester Brown in Topeka, Kansas, who had been part of the effort to bring about the ' ; 54 Supreme Court decision. These two groups were very much a middle class women' ; s response to what was happening. We will do things where we are, with women, with children to try to make a good difference in the world. And, Pals for American Women was like, the belief was that if we could get people to hear from their hearts, that that' ; s what will change people. So, we got together our speeches, so to speak and we said we would go as a group -- a White, Anglo-Saxon Protestant, which was called WASP, and a Black woman, usually a Jewish woman and a Catholic woman -- We would go and we would go to various organizations and talk about the impact of bad race relations on our family and ourselves as a way of trying to persuade people to do otherwise and to be more for civil rights and to be more tolerant. That organization survived for about five years and I hope had some good impact. I think it did on the people. I occasionally meet people who remember some of their programs. We also had a woman who was Japanese-American, who had been in a concentration camp in the Arizona desert when she was young. So, it was a very powerful group for a while. We had some powerful stories that we felt could touch people' ; s hearts and make a big difference. That was very much a women' ; s response and involvement. HUNTLEY: Virginia, we' ; ve taken about an hour and a half and I certainly appreciate your time. Maybe we need to just do this again some time, but I want to thank you for coming. VOLKER: Maybe we can talk about some other things. HUNTLEY: Sure. VOLKER: I' ; ve tried to pick out some highlights and some things that people can identify with more. I think one of the things I really learned from the Civil Rights Movement. Well, first of all I just feel very fortunate that I was born in a time and a place where this was happening. I feel very privileged to have been in Birmingham during that momentous year of ' ; 63 and I think it taught me the power of people, that people can make a difference, that we' ; re not powerless pawns totally. One of the things I learned that only one person can only do one person' ; s part, but if groups of people work together smart, we can make a big difference. And, I also learned some things about the power of non-violence and trying to reach people' ; s hearts instead of just their heads or, of course, their bodies. Learning that and knowing that and practicing it is more difficult though. HUNTLEY: In an exciting place at an exciting time. VOLKER: It really was. I was fortunate. HUNTLEY: Thank you, Virginia. VOLKER: But, it was also sad. HUNTLEY: Sure. I appreciate your time. VOLKER: Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
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Virginia Volker
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Virginia Volker discusses her involvement with the Movement throughout her education at the University of Alabama at Birmingham. She went on to be actively involved in public education and community politics in Birmingham.
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19960626V
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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1996-06-26
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video
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https://bcriohp.org/files/original/d66a1634781ec3b879ffd2f8dc1e9b04.jpg
971260fcbf59f77d3170331ed1e689f5
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
Interviewee
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Annie Levison
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ALevison1995.xml
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Rev. J. S. Phifer
Voter registration
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5.4 July 5, 1995 Annie Levison 19950705L 0:39:40 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Birmingham City Jail (Birmingham, Ala.) Rev. J. S. Phifer Voter registration Annie Levison Horace Huntley Video 1:|12(6)|46(2)|80(7)|98(12)|121(12)|138(3)|153(13)|171(5)|184(4)|199(7)|217(18)|238(6)|257(1)|278(7)|302(2)|325(10)|344(9)|364(4)|395(1)|410(10)|429(1)|445(5)|472(5)|498(2)|517(2)|530(10)|564(5)|585(5)|603(6)|618(8)|635(6)|648(10)|660(9)|676(3)|689(13)|711(3)|727(12)|741(10)|757(2) 0 https://youtu.be/7aMcsI-Slcw YouTube video English 30 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Annie Levison for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Annie Levison is Introduced Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Levison, Annie African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Oral history interview 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 47 Family Background I just want to start by asking a few general kinds of questions. Tell me a bit about your parents. Levison says that her mother was from Montgomery, Alabama, and her father from Huntsville, Alabama. They met around 1928 on the southside of Birmingham. Her mother worked at American Peerless Laundry, then later at Miro's Grocery as a meat cutter, and her father was a truck driver. She mentions that she has one brother and one sister. Family Birmingham (Ala.) ; Montgomery (Ala.) 156 Education and Childhood Where did you go to Elementary School? Levison describes the most influential teachers, and compares her educational experiences at Ullman and Parker High Schools ; the differences being that Ullman, at the time, had been a traditionally white school. She then continues to talk about her experience growing up in the Southside neighborhood in Birmingham. Birmingham Public Schools (Birmingham, Ala.) A.H. Parker High School ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Cameron Elementary School ; Ullman High School 503 Perspective on Desegregation in Schools & ; the Birmingham Educational System Well, we always thought that prior to desegregation of schools, when the schools were " ; integrated" ; then the schools would be better. How do you view that? Levison talks about how some aspects of desegregation caused some harm due to cultural differences between Black and white teachers when dealing with students and parents. Then, she states that schools are not adequately teaching Black history, resulting in a disinterest in the topic. Education--Alabama Children, teachers, and learning ; Discipline of children 845 Involvement in ACMHR & ; Mass Meetings You went on to Parker. After high school, what did you do? Levison talks about how she moved to St. Louis, Missouri in 1951 until returning to Birmingham in 1957. She describes how she felt it was necessary to get involved in the Movement after seeing the significant difference of the treatment of African Americans in St. Louis in comparison to the discriminatory practices in Birmingham. Her involvement started through participating in the mass meetings organized through New Pilgrim Baptist Church, pastored by Rev. N. H. Smith, Jr. African American churches ; Birmingham, (Ala.) ; Mass meetings ; St. Louis, (Mo.) African Americans--Segregation ; Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; NAACP ; New Pilgrim Baptist Church (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Rev. N. H. Smith, Jr. 1032 Becoming a Registered Voter When you returned, were you a registered voter? Levison describes her experience in becoming a registered voter in 1957, which included a pole tax and lengthy, written questionnaires asking about constitutional amendments and family history. Poll tax ; Voter registration 1118 Arrest & ; Experience in Jail You became active in the Movement, you told me why. You thought it was just that time, were you ever arrested? Levison recounts the time of her arrest in 1957 for riding at the front of a bus in downtown Birmingham along with other members from her church. She and others were put in jail twice, once immediately after their arrest, and again after returning for their court date, and were kept there over a weekend. She then describes the poor conditions within the jail itself. Arrest--United States ; Rev. J. S. Phifer Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Birmingham City Jail (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Segregation in transportation--United States 1477 Activities During the Demonstrations This was obviously very early in the Movement and that was really just the beginning, laying the foundation at the time. After that, were you involved in the Movement? Levison details her continued involvement in the Movement, which includes her attending mass meetings. She eventually pulled back from marching during the demonstrations in 1963 due to her job as an insurance writer for Protective Industrial Insurance Company. She also describes a time where her brother was arrested while he was still a student. Insurance writer ; Mass meetings ; Non-violence ; Protective Industrial Insurance Company African Americans--Employment ; Arrest--United States ; Civil rights demonstrations--Alabama ; Students--Civil rights 1777 Economics & ; Black Business in Birmingham I would teach the Black people how to keep their monies in their pockets and keep it in the Black areas. Levison states that the most effective method of advocating for change in the future lies in economics. She suggests that strategically spending money to support and develop Black businesses in Birmingham will help the future generations. African Americans--Education Black businesses ; Current issues in economics 2206 The Future of Birmingham Well, Mrs. Levison, is there anything else that we have not covered that you would like to briefly talk about that's related to the Movement or to Birmingham, or maybe even solutions? Levison expresses that the communities in Birmingham need to unite to maintain progress, which would include working with Mayor Richard Arrington, Jr. and improving the educational system through enforcing discipline. Arrington Jr., Richard African Americans--Education--Southern States ; Birmingham (Ala.) 2349 Conclusion of Interview Thank you Mrs. Levison. You have been quite a help to us today. Conclusion of the Interview Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) ; Oral history interview Oral History Annie Levison discusses being active in the movement, including being jailed for sitting in the front of the bus, before having to stop in order to protect her employment. She describes the difficult process she went through to become a registered voter. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Annie Levison for the Birmingham Civil Rights lnstitute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is July 5, 1995. Thank you Mrs. Levison for coming and sitting with us today. LEVISON: Thank you Dr. Huntley. HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking just a few general kinds of questions. Tell me a bit about your parents. Where were your parents from? LEVISON: Well, my mother was from Montgomery, Alabama and my father was from Huntsville. HUNTLEY: Where did they meet? LEVISON: Well, they met around 1928. HUNTLEY: In Birmingham? LEVISON: In Birmingham, yes. HUNTLEY: Oh, so they met half-way? LEVISON: Right. They met on the southside of Birmingham where my mother was staying. HUNTLEY: Tell me just a bit about their education. How much education did each of them have? LEVISON: Well, my mother, like I said, she was born in Montgomery but she came to Birmingham at an early age. And, she went to Cameron school and she went part-time to Industrial. She didn' ; t finish high school. She went to the 11th grade. And, my father only had an eighth grade education. HUNTLEY: What kind of work did they do? LEVISON: Well, my mother worked in the laundry and she was a meat cutter. My father was a truck driver. HUNTLEY: Where did she work? LEVISON: Well, she worked at American Peerless Laundry. And she worked at Mira' ; s Grocery Store. HUNTLEY: American what? LEVISON: Peerless. HUNTLEY: Peerless Laundry? LEVISON: Yes. There were two laundries that were joined together. HUNTLEY: And your father drove a truck within the city? LEVISON: Yes. He drove for Kirkpatrick in later years. But in his early years he worked at Moody' ; s bicycle shop repairing bicycles and fixing new bicycles so they could sell them. Then, he went on to driving a truck. HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have? LEVISON: I have one brother and one sister. HUNTLEY: And where did you fit in there? LEVISON: I' ; m the oldest. HUNTLEY: Where did you go to elementary school? LEVISON: I went to Cameron School. HUNTLEY: And where was Cameron located? LEVISON: On 14th Street and Avenue H. HUNTLEY: And Avenue H at that time was what? LEVISON: It was Avenue H, but now it' ; s 8th Avenue South. HUNTLEY: 8th Avenue, University Boulevard. Right where the Student Center sits? LEVISON: That' ; s it. That was Cameron School. HUNTLEY: And what do you remember about Cameron School? LEVISON: Well, I remember my school being very good. I had some good teachers and good meals. Because Mrs. McClung could cook. And I loved to eat her macaroni and cheese. But mostly, too, I remember Mrs. Sheehi. She was my favorite teacher, and Mrs. Jones. I was a pretty good reader and I was a pretty good talker, so I used to kind of bluff my way through and Mrs. Sheehi would let me go from class to class and carry the plays. We didn' ; t have auditoriums in school then. We would have to go from room to room to present plays. And I would go and I would give the briefing of the play. I loved that. HUNTLEY: So you started at an early age being rather outgoing and your teachers recognized that and sort of that enhanced your capability. LEVISON: That' ; s true. HUNTLEY: That' ; s great. And then you went on from Cameron to Ullman? LEVISON: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you were at Ullman for two years and, then, to Parker where you would graduate? LEVISON: Right. HUNTLEY: How did you compare Ullman and Parker? In later years, of course, they became rivals. LEVISON: Yes, in later years. But, in my time Ullman was a good school. Mr. Bell, my favorite principal was very nice and Mr. Whetstone, I' ; ll never forget those two. They were good. Mr. Whetstone taught biology. But, Ullman was a good school because see, the Whites had had it. And we went in right time the Whites got out. So, therefore, it was clean school and they had everything in there we needed. Where otherwise the schools didn' ; t have them. Because even in going to Parker, some of the things we had at Ullman, we didn' ; t have them at Parker. HUNTLEY: Was that because it was a white school? LEVISON: Right. And some of the equipment was already in there, such as your chemistry class. You had all your apparatus and all of these things. Now, we had those at Ullman, but Ullman was newer and more than Parker. HUNTLEY: What was your most vivid memory of your days at Parker? LEVISON: Oh, those were the good days. Well, I liked Mrs. Tate because I used to go to Home Ec with her. And, Mr. White, was a business teacher. He was very, very good and he taught me business, how to file and all. And I' ; ll always remember that and I kept it in my head. In whatever I do, when I go to put anything together, my mind goes back to him and I can balance books and things. That would help me when I started to work, that business course that I took from Mr. White, it stands out with me very vividly. HUNTLEY: You seem to have fond memories of your days in school? LEVISON: I do. Now, I treasure my school days. I really treasure my school days because, I was telling a young lady today that when I was a child coming up, we had good times. You weren' ; t afraid of anything. And we associated with people. In the neighborhood, everybody was everybody' ; s mother, and I enjoyed that. And I just wish it was today, but, you know. HUNTLEY: What neighborhood did you live in? LEVISON: I come from the southside. As we always say, the lower end. I come from 13th Street and 12th Street, that' ; s where I was raised up at. And everybody was everybody' ; s mother. And, when my mother worked and she would leave in the morning and Ms. Mary Sanders would make sure that I would get out and go to school on time. And when I come in in the evening, I stayed in that house until my mother came. And you and nobody else couldn' ; t get in because I knew better. And the neighbors weren' ; t going to let nobody come. And that' ; s the thing that, you know, I liked. And, when she would come in, well, then I would go out in the neighborhood and play with all those children and everything. And we just had a good time. We played baseball and we played marbles and hopscotch and jacks and all that. And we skated a lot and I enjoyed that. HUNTLEY: How would you compare your days in school with what you see happening today with children? LEVISON: It' ; s a vast difference. Now, if the teachers had their way and they were dedicated now, you got to have dedicated teachers. And in my day, we had dedicated teachers. They didn' ; t tell you " ; I got mine, you got to get yours." ; They said, " ; Sit down and get this." ; And when they said it, you listened. And from the experience with raising my own child in the schooling now, no. The children are just out of hand. They don' ; t listen to nobody. And when they found out that the teachers couldn' ; t whip them, they just walked all over the teachers. The teachers can not teach because the parents are not doing their jobs at home. HUNTLEY: You attribute the differences is basically lack of discipline? LEVISON: A lack of discipline now, as compared to when I was coming up. We had discipline. They would send home by you and you better carry that note home. And, if you carried that note home and you had misbehaved in that class, you were going to get a whipping. And you parents didn' ; t have to bring you back to school because the teacher knew you had your whipping. HUNTLEY: Well, we always thought that prior to desegregation of schools, when the schools were " ; integrated" ; then the schools would be better. How do you view that? LEVISON: Well, I know we said it would better if they were integrated. But it has hurt us a lot too. Sure, I like the integration of schooling to the point that we have better books and we get the lessons that they are getting now in science. We didn' ; t have science until we got to the 9th grade. They are having science in the 4th and 5th grade. Now, that is the part that I like. But, the teachers and integration it just don' ; t work together. To me it don' ; t. I feel like I have run across some White teachers in the classrooms, even with my grandson, and they show me anything. They don' ; t have any spunk about themselves. They come in the classroom with old joggly, nasty pants on and their hair standing up on their head. How can you teach a child when you look like you just come out off the field somewhere yourself. And, then, they don' ; t communicate with the children well. Johnny, you just go on. Whatever you say, it' ; s all right. That' ; s not communication. HUNTLEY: Are these Black and White teachers? LEVISON: Black and White teachers. But mostly the teachers that I run across that do this, is the White teachers. Now, I had this experience out here at Bush School with my grandson. I' ; ve ran across that. Now when my son went to Wilson School, Mrs. Rucker was very good with them. She was afraid of us because that' ; s when integration had first started out. HUNTLEY: Was she a White teacher? LEVISON: She was a White principal and she was afraid of them, but they had some good teachers there. They had some very good teachers because my son was slow with math and this teacher, Mrs. Ford, she told me the book to go and get and she went back to the basics with him on this book and this enabled him to help himself and she pulled him up. But now, the teachers don' ; t seem to want to pull the children up. They are afraid and they just let the children do what they want to do. HUNTLEY: Why do you think they are afraid? LEVISON: Because, we as grandparents, the parents are not doing the jobs at home. We are letting the children, if he say, " ; I don' ; t want to eat." ; " ; Okay child, you don' ; t have to eat." ; But see, instead of saying, " ; Johnny, go in there and eat," ; and be firm with it, we are not doing the job. It all stems from home. And, like about this civil rights thing, they just don' ; t, I don' ; t know, we don' ; t teach them at a early age, how we got what we got. HUNTLEY: Are you suggesting that the kids know little about the Movement itself? LEVISON: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: Why do you think that' ; s the case? LEVISON: Because the parents don' ; t talk about it at home. Because the younger parents don' ; t even know anything about it themselves. Anyone that' ; s past 25 now, even I' ; d say 20, they don' ; t know anything about the Movement because we are not educating our children at home about these Movements. They don' ; t know anything about it. HUNTLEY: Do you think that the school system has a role to play in passing this information on? LEVISON: Yes. Because just like we learned the White history, learn the Black history also. Now, I listen all the time to the TV and the radio when people are talking about and read the editorial section -- we don' ; t need to know anything about Blacks, you see it everyday. But, your textbooks are all about White people. It' ; s everything the White man wrote. Nothing is in there about the Blacks. HUNTLEY: Birmingham school system now, is about 90 percent Black. The Administration is primarily Black. What' ; s the problem? LEVISON: They are just not teaching the course. They do not have a Black history course. See, when we were coming up, we had a Black history course, because that' ; s where we learned about Booker T. Washington, George Washington Carver and all. You remember this little red book? I think Woodrow Wilson wrote that book, I believe. But, anyway it was a Black history book. We studied that book. We knew all about all of those. DuBois and all of them, we knew about them. But do our children know about them now? No. They don' ; t know poems and they don' ; t even read the poetry in the book. They don' ; t read these Black backgrounds. They don' ; t do that. You ask them who Booker T. Washington was and they couldn' ; t tell you. They couldn' ; t tell you nothing. Why? Because it' ; s not being taught. And half of the young Black teachers don' ; t even know about it themselves. That' ; s why it' ; s not being taught. HUNTLEY: So you then are suggesting that the educational system at the University level as well as the high school level are wanting for this kind of information? LEVISON: That' ; s right. Do you know I find out who are asking you about the Black history? White people. They are studying our history. We are not studying our own history. You know, they will see you in the store and things and some people can have friendly faces and things, but they will start talking and bring up a conversation and they are worried about the Black history. And they start talking and asking you questions about Black history. HUNTLEY: You mean they are interested in learning the history? LEVISON: That' ; s right. They are interested in learning our history. HUNTLEY: And you are saying that Blacks are not interested in learning their history? LEVISON: No we are not. We are interested in the rap. And interested, like I see them with these pants all half way down and I want to grab everyone of them. I get on my grandson all the time. HUNTLEY: You went on to Parker. After you graduated from high school, what did you do? LEVISON: When I graduated from high school I was so in love. I got that diploma and I wanted to go to college. My father said he didn' ; t have any money and at that time I didn' ; t know about grants and all. There wasn' ; t any grants rather. So I went on and I married. Then, after I married, he said, " ; Well, if you and your husband can' ; t make it, I' ; ll send you to college." ; I said, " ; No, I' ; m married now." ; So that was the end of that and I didn' ; t worry about any more school. HUNTLEY: So did you go to work after that or were you a housewife? LEVISON: I was a housewife for awhile. HUNTLEY: You actually left Birmingham and moved to -- where did you move? LEVISON: St. Louis. I left Birmingham in ' ; 51. HUNTLEY: How long did you remain in St. Louis? LEVISON: I remained in St. Louis until ' ; 57. HUNTLEY: You returned in 1957. In 1956 the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized because the NAACP had been outlawed from operating in the state. So the Movement was organized to sort of fill that void. Did you get actively involved with the Movement at that time? LEVISON: Yes, I did. Because of my pastor and my church, we were involved. HUNTLEY: Who was your pastor? LEVISON: Rev. N. H. Smith, Jr. HUNTLEY: And your church? LEVISON: New Pilgrim Baptist Church. And we were highly involved in it because our choir was singing. When they would meet at our church, we would open up and they would have a hallelujah good time, shouting, singing and praying and talking about the Whites and talking about how we got to pull up by the boot straps and we are going to break these laws and everything. And they would take up money. HUNTLEY: Is this in the mass meetings? LEVISON: In the mass meetings, yes. And we would go from church to church, New St. James and all of them to the mass meetings. HUNTLEY: Well, why did you feel it necessary to get involved when you returned to Birmingham? LEVISON: Well, because it was a vast difference between St. Louis and Birmingham. In St. Louis at that time, you were freer than you were in Birmingham. I could afford to ride the buses and go. And I saw the young people with jobs, waiting on people in the stores and all. In Birmingham that wasn' ; t happening. You could go to any water fountain and drink. Well, in Birmingham we had the Black and White water. So, that' ; s why I said I can go help and break some of these laws and things. HUNTLEY: Some of the segregationists were suggesting that everything was okay in Birmingham until some Black people went north and, then, was influenced by the NAACP and came back with these foreign ideas. Are you suggesting that he was correct? LEVISON: No. I am not going to say he was correct. I said there was a vast difference in the two cities. I was used to drinking the White water and the Black water because that' ; s all we could do here. But we are not going to say that the Blacks come back and just wanted to change. It was time for a change in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: When you returned, were you a registered voter? LEVISON: No, I wasn' ; t. When I returned I became a registered voter in 1957.HUNTLEY: Can you tell me about the experience of becoming a registered voter? LEVISON: Yes. We had to go down there and fill out a long questionnaire. I think it filled about two and a half pages. They were asking questions about the government, about your people, a whole lot of nonsense questions. HUNTLEY: Do you remember any specific questions that were asked on the questionnaire? LEVISON: Not right now, I can' ; t because that was a number of years ago. HUNTLEY: Were all of them valid questions or were there any that was... LEVISON: No. They were like they wanted to know who your grandmother was, who your great grandmother was. And, where did they originate from. They wanted to know all your family history and had any of them ever been in jail and all of this stuff. And, then, you had to put down some of the amendments and everything. They would ask you about that. And they would ask you questions out of the Constitution. HUNTLEY: Were these all written, or did you have someone to... LEVISON: They were typed on a piece of paper. A long piece of paper. HUNTLEY: You had to actually write the answers to the questions? LEVISON: Right. HUNTLEY: No one was asking you these questions verbally? LEVISON: No. You were writing. And, then, you had to pay some poll tax, $1.50 before you could become a registered voter. HUNTLEY: Did you pass the first time? LEVISON: I passed the first time. HUNTLEY: You became active in the Movement, you told me why. You thought it was just that time, were you ever arrested? LEVISON: Yes, I was. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me the circumstances of your arrest? LEVISON: From riding the bus. I believe we were around the first ones to ride the bus. We had boarded the bus. Our pastors carried us, Rev. Smith carried us downtown. So, then we boarded the bus at Second Avenue and we met up with Rev. Phifer, the Hendricks brothers and Mrs. Brown. The bus was full of people and we sat right on the front because I sat on the side opposite the driver. You know they had the two long sides, and Rev. Phifer and Hendricks sat on one. And Mrs. Brinson and all and we just set right up to the front. So the man looked back and said, " ; I' ; m not going to move this bus until you all move." ; And we didn' ; t move. A lot of the Blacks on there said, " ; Why don' ; t y' ; all get up and come on back?" ; HUNTLEY: Now, this is immediately after you returned from St. Louis, so you are talking about 1957? LEVISON: That' ; s right, in ' ; 57. It was October or the first part of November HUNTLEY: Was this as a result of what had taken place in Montgomery? LEVISON :No, Montgomery hadn' ; t had there' ; s I don' ; t think then. HUNTLEY: Yes. They had there' ; s and there' ; s was over at the time. And the court had ruled that segregation of bus seating was illegal. LEVISON: I was in St. Louis when Montgomery was going on. Well, I guess it was prior to that then. Rev. Smith and the others said they wanted to test the bus out. So that Sunday he asked for volunteers and didn' ; t many people come out there. And I was supposed to be teaching school, kindergarten at the church and I left the job, Pete and I, we went on and got put in jail. We didn' ; t know we were going to jail, though. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. The bus driver said that he would not move the bus. Did he threaten you? LEVISON: Yes. He told us, he said, " ; If you don' ; t go back to that back, I' ; m going to take all of y' ; all and put you in jail." ; So we still didn' ; t say nothing. And Rev. Smith got off the bus because he saw there were going to be some problems so he was calling the head people so they could come. Rev. Phifer stayed on the bus so we just started singing. HUNTLEY: What about the people in the back, the Black people? LEVISON: Well, they got angry with us because they wanted to go to work Over the Mountain. And they was telling us to get off the bus and come on to the back or get off that bus. So, we just ignored them. And we just sat there and we just sang. So finally, they emptied the whole bus. The whole bus was emptied and the people from the car bond came down and they begged us to get off the bus and we didn' ; t move. So, then they called the policeman and we didn' ; t move for him. There were some nasty police during that time because they would call us niggers. They told us, " ; niggers, go to the back of this bus." ; And we didn' ; t move. We just went right on and sat there and sang. And Rev. Phifer prayed. So they told us " ; We are going to carry y' ; all to jail." ; So they brought us on to the bus barn, it was on 4th Avenue then. And, they brought us down on 4th Avenue and 13th Street to the barn, and, then, they brought the paddy wagon and put us in and we went to jail. HUNTLEY: Where did they take you? LEVISON: To the city jail. HUNTLEY: Downtown or southside? LEVISON: Southside. HUNTLEY: Southside. And how long did you remain? LEVISON: That was on a Monday and it was about 12:00, so we stayed there until about 3:00 that Tuesday morning before day. And when brother Shaw was rich and he put up his funeral home because the Movement didn' ; t have too much money then. And they had to take up whatever they could and that wasn' ; t enough. So they got us out and we came home. And, then, we had to go back to trial that Friday. HUNTLEY: You were released at 3:00 in the morning? LEVISON: In the morning. 3:00 that morning. HUNTLEY: Why do you think you were released at 3:00 in the morning? LEVISON: They were being nasty. They could have released us earlier but they were just being nasty. They had come up to get us around about 10:00 that night. HUNTLEY: So you were released and, then, you went to court that same week? LEVISON: That same week. HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. LEVISON: The court was set up for 11:00 that night and it was around about 12:30 or something to 1:00 when they tried us. They locked us back up because the judge was out of town or somebody was out of town, whoever they were supposed to get a writ of habeas corpus from. And lawyer Billingsley and Shores were the lawyers for us then and they locked us back up and we had to stay in there until Monday. And, when we come back there that Monday night to trial, it was 12:00 again that night ; . HUNTLEY: So you were actually locked up after you had returned for your court date? LEVISON: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: And you spent the weekend in jail? LEVISON: That' ; s right. A whole weekend in jail. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the experience. What was it like being in jail? LEVISON: It' ; s an experience nobody wants. It was a nasty place. It was filthy in that jail. And the food, the trays they give you to put the food on it, they were just as nasty as they could be. They wasn' ; t washing those trays and the food wasn' ; t even fit to eat. They come around and cut the lights out. It just was a miserable thing. And those little hard beds in there. HUNTLEY: Someone said that they were attempting to teach you a lesson? LEVISON: That' ; s it. They say you won' ; t come back no more. They said, if we teach y' ; all a lesson, y' ; all won' ; t come back here no more. But, that didn' ; t stop the people. HUNTLEY: It didn' ; t stop the Movement at all. LEVISON: No, it did not. They went by throngs later. HUNTLEY: This was obviously very early in the Movement and that was really just the beginning, laying the foundation at that time. After that, were you involved in the Movement? LEVISON: Yes. I would continue to go to the meetings and pay money and things like that. I would do that. I marched with some signs. But then I stopped marching with them. I would just go to the meetings. I left and went back to St. Louis and, then, I came back home. I stayed in St. Louis again about one year. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me what the typical mass meeting was like? LEVISON: Well, they would be packed. You could not find standing room. And they would have a lot of singing, hand clapping and shouting and all. And, then, people would get up and tell different things that had happen to them and, then, they would map out strategies of what to do in order to break segregation and everything and how to get your rights and things together. They would tell you that if a policeman approach you, don' ; t try to resist him. Just be humble and go along meekly. Because at that time that' ; s when they were beating you and everything. So they would tell them not to resist. And, when you go places, do not go alone but go in groups. So that way you wouldn' ; t be attacked by yourself. You would have somebody to be a witness if anything did happen to you. HUNTLEY: Were other members of your family involved in the Movement? LEVISON: Well, my brother got arrested. He went out there with them when the school children was being arrested. He got arrested, too. HUNTLEY: He was one of the school children? LEVISON: Right. HUNTLEY: Where did they take him? LEVISON: To the fairgrounds. HUNTLEY: At that time what kind of work were you doing? LEVISON: Well, I was an insurance worker then. I was working for Protective Industrial. was writing insurance. HUNTLEY: I see. LEVISON: I had left the kindergarten at the church and I started writing insurance. HUNTLEY: So you were writing insurance during the ' ; 63 demonstrations? LEVISON: Yes. HUNTLEY: Were you a participant during those demonstrations? LEVISON: No. I was not. HUNTLEY: When you saw your brother going to jail, what kind of emotions did that bring out in you? LEVISON: Well, it disturbed me very much. And mother told me go home. Rev. King and them almost missed me when they was saying .... HUNTLEY: What do you mean " ; almost missed you?" ; LEVISON: I couldn' ; t see myself turning the other cheek then. I couldn' ; t. And I couldn' ; t stand for White people to touch me and I not hit them back. And, so he just about missed me because when they turned that water on those children out there and all, and when they was herding them like they were cattle or something and had those old prongs with them, well I got angry with them about that. Because it wasn' ; t right. HUNTLEY: But you decided that you would not participate, but were you still attending the mass meetings? LEVISON: I was attending the meetings, yes. But I could not participate because I would have fought back and he said he wanted non-violent people. HUNTLEY: Were there other activities that you participated in? Were you supportive of the Movement? LEVISON: Yes. I was very supportive by paying the money and going to the meetings. was very supportive of that. And, if they had any programs or something, I would go to that, but other than that, marching, I didn' ; t do any more. HUNTLEY: Now, you are still a member of New Pilgrim? LEVISON: Yes, I' ; m still there. HUNTLEY: So your pastor was still actively involved and your church was actively involved. LEVISON: Very much so. HUNTLEY: From your perspective, looking back on this period of the Movement, how would you, if you had the ability to change, for instance the day that you were arrested and the method that was utilized to get you all arrested, or other things, other methods that were used during the Movement, would you change any of those things if you had the ability to change them and maybe do something different? LEVISON: Well, during that time, no. That was effective. But now, it' ; s not effective. We need to sat up other strategies now because going to jail don' ; t mean anything anymore to them. And, it' ; s going to come from the power structure of ourselves and our monies. This is where you will hurt and this is what I would change now. HUNTLEY: How do you mean? LEVISON: I would teach the Black people how to keep their monies in their pockets and keep it in the Black areas. I would. If you notice now, Birmingham, the Whites, because we got a Black mayor, they all moving. All of the businesses are moving out of Birmingham. And, we Blacks are going over there to Hooverr, I don' ; t go to Hoover, and I would teach my dollar not to go to Hoover. I would teach my dollars to say right where I am in Birmingham. HUNTLEY: Are you suggesting then that economics is the key at this point? LEVISON: That' ; s the key. HUNTLEY: How would you do that? If you keep your money in Birmingham, then you wouldn' ; t go to the Galleria. LEVISON: No, I would not. I would go out here in Five Points. But we, this has always been my theory. We need to get our own factories. It' ; s plenty of people in Birmingham can sew. Black people can really sew. We need to set up and we can give our people jobs. We can create ourselves, within ourselves and we as Black people need to buy from one another. But, first, we the Black people got to know how to treat each other. Then, when you can treat a person right, they will come into your business. If you can do that, you' ; ll have it made. Let the White man I don' ; t have to depend upon you. Like you get your material from Japan, I can get mine, too. Because the field is open. That man in Japan will sell you material just like he would sell it to that White man. All he' ; s looking for is that all mighty dollar. And when we learn that and we plant our own vegetables and things and grow them and put our stands up and, then, we buy from these stands, we can make it. HUNTLEY: In 1963 we were searching for a change in the status quo. That change came about. Something though, since then, went wrong. What happened that we are no further along economically today than we are? LEVISON: Education. We didn' ; t continue to educate our Black children in the way of letting them know from whence they came. Like we were saying before. When the children got up, nobody was there to tell them anything. Okay. The older people were going to the Movements, but we didn' ; t bring our young children to the Movement, so this is what broke down. Because we did not continue to educate our children in mass. Just like they went to jail in mass, we should have kept them into the Movement in mass. And we older ones move off the scene, but be there to lecture and let one of them become a president of the Movement but we be there to kind of guide them if they need our guidance when we see that they are going to the far left. So this is what we do, we get into the position, and we stay there instead of passing it own. So, the young people say, well they are not going to let me do anything, I' ; m not interested, I' ; ll do my own thing. So this is where the break down come in. HUNTLEY: Do you see any changes in that mentality today? Are we moving in that direction? Are we stagnate? Are we moving backwards? LEVISON: Well, we are kind of stagnate and some of the young people are taking a hold and coming on into the business. Gaynell Hendricks and them, I noticed they are just young thriving people. HUNTLEY: Who is Gaynell Hendricks? LEVISON: They have the daycare centers. They are in Homewood, Bessemer and Birmingham. She is a young lady and she is pushing. She is striving hard. And we got a lot of Black business, but I just brought her up because she' ; s out front. And, I noticed, when I went to this Black business chambers, they had a lot of Black business in there, but a lot of Black business is not known to us. Now, this Mahogany Card Store, I go to it out in Fairfield, because I know that the only way they are going to get up is by the Blacks pushing them, and this is what we need to do. Now, some of the young people are moving forward, but we old ones, we still, sit back and won' ; t go out there and help them. This is what we got to do. Now, if I want a hat I just as soon go out to Western Hills Mall to Eva' ; s, a young Black girl, and I just as soon give her $150.00 or $300.00 for a hat as to give 5th Avenue $300 or $400 for a hat. See what I mean. So this is what I' ; m saying. We need to go and cater to our Blacks. The young people who are trying to bring us up by the bootstraps. Help them to come on up. HUNTLEY: So, although we did accomplish some things during the civil rights movement, we simply didn' ; t go far enough? LEVISON: No. We did not go far enough. When we got that little freedom, it kind of went to our heads. Instead of sticking right there and going on, like when we boycotted that bus and all, they got what they wanted. Like I say, if they keep their money in their pocket, they can get what they want. HUNTLEY: Do you see that happening today? LEVISON: No. I don' ; t. HUNTLEY: Economic boycotts? LEVISON: I don' ; t see any. See, we don' ; t have any going. HUNTLEY: Is there a possibility? Is anyone talking about that kind of thing? LEVISON: I haven' ; t heard anybody say anything, but if they got in there, I would sure give them my soap box because this is what we need. It' ; s enough Black people in this city that has money to start a business. Get those manufacturers and things going. Venture out. Stop so many funeral homes and get something else. You got too many funeral homes in Birmingham. Every time you look on the corner it' ; s a new funeral home coming up. Put that money in something else so we can stop killing each other. The ones killing each other is because they don' ; t have jobs. They are sitting at home with nothing to do. They are walking around in the streets and they want these gold chains and things so they are going to rob and steal and kill to get it. We can stop that. And the White man is bringing the dope in. He' ; s bringing the dope into us and we don' ; t have no better sense because in my neighborhood it' ; s one right around there in a red truck and if I could just get him one time, he wouldn' ; t come back in Titusville, no more. HUNTLEY: You just need to get his license plate and give it to the police. LEVISON: Well, they know it. They know it because every house he goes to, is a Black house. And they know that' ; s a dope house. HUNTLEY: It' ; s known what is happening, it' ; s just not that effort to change those things. LEVISON: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: Well, Mrs. Levison is there anything else that we have not covered that you would like to briefly talk about that' ; s related to the Movement or to Birmingham, or maybe even solutions? Anything we have not touched on? LEVISON: Well, I think we' ; ve touched on just about everything. Like I was saying, we got to come together to put Birmingham on the move. What hurts me about Birmingham, we see what' ; s happening but it looks like nobody is getting the solution to help it and to move it on. And, we got to help our mayor. Now, we got a good mayor and we got to get in there, stop fighting each other and fighting him and trying to be on the top and all this stuff and put our ideas with him. If he was to call a community meeting in Titusville and wants some ideas, I would sure be there to help give him some. And, like the policemen, they haven' ; t come to Titusville yet to have their meetings, but I' ; m waiting on them to come so I can tell them about these trucks and things come through the neighborhood. They need to know. And, our children. I just look at Washington School. That' ; s a school that really needs to be closed. HUNTLEY: Why? LEVISON: It' ; s no discipline in there. Those little old boys that sell drugs are there. And the policemen sees them when they are not in school and it' ; s a bunch of them. They wear red and black and they wear white and their clothes half off of them. They walk up and down the street when school is in. And I know they see it and the policeman stay there all the time. So get them old boys, they are not going to school and children are scared to go to school because they are going to jump on them. A child can' ; t get his lesson and he' ; s scared to go in school. And, Ms. Yarber and them just can' ; t seem to handle it. So they need some stronger men. We need some men in the school system. Some men who are not afraid to handle some of these people and things out here. Because the ladies, they know these boys and things will jump on these lady teachers. So we need to revamp that. And we just as a community need to come together. And I am a very religious person. I pray all the time about things, but the Lord tell you to get up off your knees sometime and do something about it and it' ; s just time for us to do something about it. HUNTLEY: Thank you Mrs. Levison. You have been quite a help to us today. LEVISON: I hope so. HUNTLEY: We will be in touch with you. Thank you. LEVISON: All right. Thank you. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ALevison1995.xml ALevison1995.xml
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Annie Levison
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Annie Levison discusses being active in the movement, including being jailed for sitting in the front of the bus, before having to stop in order to protect her employment. She describes the difficult process she went through to become a registered voter.
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19950705L
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Birmingham City Jail (Birmingham, Ala.)
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1995-07-05
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video
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0485de888ffb410dd5c0f5c512a633d5
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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Almarie Billups
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ABillups1995.xml
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National Association of the Advancement of Colored People
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5.4 June 28, 1995 Almarie Billups 19950628B 1:08:28 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Anna Wallace Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Billups, Charles S.C.L.C. Operation Breadbasket National Association of the Advancement of Colored People Almarie Billups Horace Huntley Video 1:|3(6)|26(1)|39(16)|58(2)|76(3)|91(2)|109(2)|121(13)|138(2)|151(10)|168(5)|176(9)|193(3)|203(8)|216(5)|228(10)|243(8)|260(4)|277(4)|300(7)|331(5)|355(13)|372(11)|397(4)|408(7)|421(2)|439(1)|462(3)|479(5)|509(6)|522(6)|552(3)|573(13)|591(2)|605(4)|615(17)|637(6)|648(2)|662(6)|675(13)|701(8)|715(10)|727(6)|748(14)|761(10)|782(11)|802(15)|853(12)|866(12)|888(4)|912(16)|930(3)|944(2)|960(11)|977(12)|997(2)|1020(16)|1048(10)|1059(16)|1075(14)|1087(7)|1099(13)|1109(11)|1132(13)|1141(17)|1152(4)|1163(16)|1184(14) 0 https://youtu.be/mR7xLTi4XPU YouTube video English 44 Introduction to Interview This is an interview with Mrs. Alma Billups for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. Alma Billups is introduced Billups family ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Oral history interview 33.516200, -86.813870 17 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 65 Family Background I just want to start by asking a few general kinds of questions about your family. Billups explains where her parents were born, when they moved to Birmingham, and their occupations ; she also mentions her siblings. Family Birmingham (Ala.) ; Camp Hill (Ala.) ; Irondale (Ala.) 290 Childhood and Education Tell me a little about your childhood. Where did you start elementary school? Billups recounts how she started school early to go to school with her brothers, her experience at Irondale Senior High, and the people who most inspired her at school. Elementary school ; High schools Elementary school teachers ; Irondale City High School (Irondale, Ala.) ; Science teachers 509 Irondale Community and Childhood Memories Tell me about the community that you lived in. What kind of work did the people do? What did you do for recreation? What do you remember as a child? Billups recounts how Mt. Hebron Baptist Church served as a community hub for the Irondale area with many activities, and she also talks about how her family's middle class status allowed them to host parties for the community. Church ; Mt. Hebron Baptist Church African Americans--Recreation ; Irondale (Ala.) ; Mt. Hebron Baptist Church 787 Meeting Her Husband, Charles Billups What did you do after high school? Billups describes how in 1947, she started working at a meat factory in Woodlawn, Alabama where she met her husband, Charles Billups, whom she married a month after they met, and remained married to him for 22 years until his death in 1968. Irondale (Ala.) ; Woodlawn (Ala.) African Americans--Marriage ; Billups, Charles 1026 Involvement in the NAACP and ACMHR Your husband was very active in the NAACP. Were you active in the NAACP? Billups talks about how she, and her husband especially, were involved with the NAACP and the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights, including assisting others with voter registrations, and going to meetings. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; National Association of the Advancement of Colored People Civil rights organizations ; Shuttlesworth, Fred L., 1922-2011 ; Voter registration 1403 Beatings and Bomb Threats It was horrible at first, because I was not disgusted, I was afraid that something was going to happen to the children. And, see, in '57 was when my husband was beaten up. Billups recounts how in 1957, her husband was beaten after using a white bathroom, which resulted in a two weeks' hospital stay, during which they received bomb threats. Bomb threat Abuse ; Attempted murder ; Death threats 1900 Working at University Hospital Well, I'm sure that on your job, what occupation did you have? Billups explains how she worked at University Hospital as a Licensed Practical Nurse, and how she faced discrimination from her supervisor and other doctors. Hospitals--United States ; Nursing--United States African American nurses ; Discrimination in employment--United States ; University Hospital, (Ala.) 2297 The Difficulties of Being Married to an Activist What was the most difficult thing you had to endure as a result of being the wife of Rev. Billups? Billups describes how being married to an activist was challenging since it meant they were sometimes rejected for bank loans, jobs, and even experienced having their phone bugged ; she also expressed how she personally felt frustrated at times. African American political activists ; African Americans--Marriage ; Billups, Charles Civil rights movement ; Discrimination in commercial loans ; Discrimination in employment 2510 Demonstrations and Movements in 1963 What do you remember about the demonstrations of 1963? Billups recalls the different demonstrations, including one where her husband and others knelt in prayer and did not have hoses or dogs turned on them ; she also describes when she and her daughters almost encountered the Ku Klux Klan. Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Non-violence African Americans--Civil rights--History--20th century ; Ku Klux Klan 2758 Alabama Christian Movement Mass Meetings and Operation Breadbasket And, then, he became involved in Operation Breadbasket. Billups details her husband's involvement in Operation Breadbasket, and describes what the March on Washington and the mass meetings of the ACMHR were like. King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Mass meetings Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963 : Washington, D.C.) ; S.C.L.C. Operation Breadbasket 2892 Relationship with Police Brutality And the policeman was coming in and some kind of way, accidentally, Charles brushed against him or something and they brought the paddy wagon right there to the meeting and threw him up against the paddy wagon. Billups recounts how the police would aggressively throw her husband against the paddy wagon and how there were times where the police would dismantle and hide stop signs in order to arrest him for " ; traffic violations." ; Billups, Charles Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Discrimination in law enforcement ; Police brutality--United States 3113 Charles Billups' Other Jobs And what kind of work did he do? Billups talks about the job her husband got in Chicago at the National Tea Company, and how he moved up quickly to Director of Human Relations. Billups, Charles ; Human Relations ; National Tea Company African Americans--Employment ; Chicago, Ill. 3449 Charles Billups' Death Well, how did your husband die? Billups explains how her husband was shot and that his death was not heavily investigated. African American civic leaders ; Billups, Charles ; Death Chicago (Ill.) ; Murder ; Murder--Investigation 3681 Reflection on the Movement If you would look back in the days that you were in Birmingham and if you had the potential of changing what took place, say between the time that you were married and 1963, what would you change? Billups talks about how she hopes the past movements will inspire the education of young people, and that she would not change anything about her husband's involvement in the Civil Rights Movement. Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights ; Billups, Charles African Americans--Education ; Change 3832 Importance of Family Support Is there anything else that we have not touched on that you would like to include on this tape that's related to the Movement or to your family? Billups talks about her parents who were supportive of her and her husband and how people in their past also gave support, include Reverend Robert Alford. African American families ; African American religious leaders ; Alford, Robert 4016 Conclusion of Interview Well, you have been a strength. Not just for your children and family, but for a lot of people in the community. So I would like to thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to sit with us today. Conclusion of the interview African American history ; Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Historical interview Oral History Almarie Billups discusses being deeply involved in the Movement with her husband, Charles Billups. She worked hard balancing supporting her family and supporting the Movement. HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Alma Billups for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute' ; s Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at 465 Water Street on June 28, 1995. Mrs. Billups, thank you for inviting us into your home to speak with us today. BILLUPS: You' ; re welcome. HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking a few general kinds of questions about your family. Where were your parents from? BILLUPS: My mother and father was born in Camp Hill, Alabama. That' ; s in Tallapoosa County. HUNTLEY: Down Highway 280? BILLUPS: Yes. You know, at first it was this mountain that the train went through. They called it Double Oaks Mountain before they converted it. And the train, they called it the Little Short Central. We would ride that from Irondale to Camp Hill. Go through Dadeville and go on to Camp Hill. And you went through the mountain in a tunnel. But now you know you can go out 280. HUNTLEY: Were you born in Camp Hill? BILLUPS: No. I wasn' ; t. My mother and father came to Birmingham. Well, it' ; s Irondale. They moved there in 1922. And I had two brothers born before me. One was born in ' ; 21 and the other was born in ' ; 22. Then I had a brother born in ' ; 23 and one born in ' ; 24 and I was born in ' ; 25. HUNTLEY: So you' ; re the baby? BILLUPS: I' ; m the baby. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your parents. What was their education? BILLUPS: Now, my daddy was a WWI vet. He was in the war. They were mostly farmers and my mother' ; s father owned something like a plantation. Because when we could go there in the summer, after we got out of school, he had acres of land. He planted a lot of cotton. He had apple orchards and peaches and grapes, chickens. HUNTLEY: This is in Camp Hill? BILLUPS: This is in Camp Hill and we would go there for the summer. That' ; s after my mother and father had moved here. And we would go there and my grandfather, my mother' ; s father, he was kind of like, kind of wealthy I believe, I assume you would say Black people were in those days. He owned his own home and things like that. HUNTLEY: How much schooling did your parents have? BILLUPS: Well, I would say maybe not a 6th or the 8th grade. Something like that. HUNTLEY: What were their occupations? BILLUPS: My daddy first started out working in a coal mine. And they were coal mines at that time that Black men worked in, the shafts were so low, they had to lay on their backs with a little cap, they called it a mining cap and it would have carbolic acid and you' ; d put it in there and it would flash and turn the light on. They had to hold their head up to dig coal. And, after he left the coal mine, well, I guess I was 10 or 11, he started working on the railroad, the Southern Railroad and that' ; s where he retired from. HUNTLEY: Was your mother a housewife? Did she work outside of the house? BILLUPS: No more than having to help daddy out, maybe, washing and ironing for the white people. Maybe house cleaning sometime. But mostly, she was housewife. She set up our house and she did a lot of preserving and canning and cooking, you know. HUNTLEY: She did what housewives did at that time, right? BILLUPS: At that time, yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your childhood. Where did you start elementary school? BILLUPS: Well, I started elementary school when I was 5 ½. And the reason I was able to do that is because my mother would take my brothers and I thought I was supposed to go everywhere the brothers went. And when she would take them to school I would cry. And so the teacher' ; s name was Bertha B. Howard, I will never forget. She said, " ; Let her come on." ; And so she let me settle on with six year olds. And I learned. HUNTLEY: So you went ahead of yourself? BILLUPS: I went ahead of myself. Because I finished high school when I was 17 ½. But I tell you one thing, in all the schools, Bertha B. Howard was my inspiration and the lady that taught me how to read, write and arithmetic. Those were the basics. Now, they didn' ; t just say, I can write better than any of my children. I can write better than my grandchildren, because they write their own style. They draw their writing, you know. But we were taught writing. We had a writing book. And at first grade, when it was time for them, they would go to the front seat and they did their work. You know every grade would move up. It was a small town so there wasn' ; t that many children, but it went to the fifth grade. At that time I was in the sixth grade and graduated from the sixth grade and would have gone to, I can' ; t think of it. But anyway, my brothers went to high school at Parker High in the city. But when they built this high school on Grants Mill Road, you passed a place called the Golden Rule Bar B Que, right on Grants Mill Road and that' ; s 78, you know. HUNTLEY: What was the name of that school? BILLUPS: It was, they called it Irondale Senior High at that time. But, I graduated from there in 1942 when I was 17 ½. But, after that year, they converted into a junior high school. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your high school days? What stands out in your mind about that time? BILLUPS: What really stands out, my science teacher, Mrs. Warren, Marqueta Warren, and I don' ; t know whether she still teaching there, but my mother got very ill when I was in the 11th grade fixing to go to the 12th grade and I had stayed home quite a bit, because I' ; m the only girl. There were a certain amount of experiments we had to do to complete that science class. She would stay with me after school and help me to make up those experiments so I would have enough credits and my mother and father was not able at that time, because momma was so ill, they were not able to buy me a class ring, and you know they cost $12.95 then, but... HUNTLEY: That was a lot of money at that time? BILLUPS: Oh, goodness. And it was beautiful gold. Ms. Warren said, " ; Don' ; t cry, I' ; ll get your ring for you." ; She got me a ring. HUNTLEY: I' ; m sure that that made an impression on you? BILLUPS: Yes, and my mother sewed. Because when I graduated from the 6th grade to the 7th grade, you know, that was just like, you got a diploma and you wore a ribbon, but I didn' ; t have a white dress. You had to have a white dress. My mother had a white dress, she cut her white dress up and made it for me and I graduated from elementary school. HUNTLEY: Tell me about the community that you lived in. What kind of work did the people do? What did you do for recreation? What do you remember as a child? BILLUPS: As a child I remember we were a very close knit neighborhood. Mt. Hebron Baptist Church that' ; s where the center of most everything were. We would go to Vacation Bible School and, then there was an open lot right next to mommy and daddy' ; s lot and that' ; s where my mother, the ladies and everything went on the picnics and things like that, they did a lot of bar-b-queuing. And we played out there and we called it the grove. But the church used to sponsor things like hay rides on the back of a truck. And we had Sunday School picnics and we played a lot of baseball back then. I never learned how to play. You know what, all four of my big brothers took care of me. HUNTLEY: You were sheltered? BILLUPS: Yes. You know what, everybody in Irondale could skate, ride bicycles, do all that, I couldn' ; t. But, my brothers would put me on the back of their bicycles and ride me. HUNTLEY: What did you like to do most of all? BILLUPS: Run with my brothers. And, like at church, we had junior choirs and senior choirs. I liked to do a lot of singing. And my oldest brother did a lot of singing at that time. HUNTLEY: So you were intimately involved with the church? BILLUPS: With the church, yes. I even remember the pastor. Out of all these years, Rev. W. H. Smith, I joined the church under him. HUNTLEY: Did your parents own or did they rent? BILLUPS: They owned. My brother, at first we rented. When I was like 6 or 7 years old. But, my daddy bought a piece of property. When he went to WWI they didn' ; t pay them all. They got what you call a bonus and he got his second bonus, all the rest of his money. What you call mustering out pay. They called them bonuses then. And in 1941, they sent my daddy $832 and my daddy and my oldest brother, he already had this lot. My daddy and my oldest brother built this house. That whole house. It was two bedrooms and they built me a little small one by me being the only girl. The boys had a room to themselves. Momma and daddy' ; s room and, then, I had a small room. And we had a living room, a kitchen and dining room, but we had outside toilet facilities at that time. But eventually we got, you know. And, at first we had electric light. And, you know, I got my best lessons then. But guess what, then we got electricity down in that little section and in each room, there was one light hanging down. You clicked it. HUNTLEY: I remember those. BILLUPS: And we had a radio. HUNTLEY: So you were middle class? BILLUPS: Yes. Because my daddy always worked. He did two or three different things, We were the first people in Irondale to have a telephone and we were on a four-party line and that was the best thing, we thought. Well, we got that when I was about 15. Like the radio, when Joe Louis would be fighting, people would be in our yard, because nobody else had a radio. So we opened up the door and turned the radio and everybody enjoyed the fights. BILLUPS: Yes, and see my daddy, by him working at the railroad, he worked at the (inaudible) company. And so, they had a commissary and we had the first television in Irondale. So everybody come and look at the TV. We had, you know how they have a square now, we had an oblong one. HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school? BILLUPS: After high school I taught kindergarten for about two years out in Ensley. There was a funeral home. They called it Patton' ; s Funeral Home. And, then in 1947, I met Charles and I had gotten a job at a meat factory. It was on 64th Street and First Avenue in Woodlawn. He was just coming out of WWII because he still had to go back because he was in the reserves. So, I went to apply for that job and I didn' ; t carry lunch money because I didn' ; t know I was going to get hired. I got hired that day. And so his mother always bought him hot lunches. HUNTLEY: He was already working there? BILLUPS: He was already working there and he saw me sitting in a corner without anything to eat and he shared his lunch with me. I met him, guess what? We started talking and in two weeks' ; time we decided, I guess, we were in love. We said we were going to marry June the 12th. We met in December and we married in January, two weeks after. HUNTLEY: You mean you were married a month after you met him? BILLUPS: After I met him. And when he came to my daddy and ask for me, which they don' ; t do now, they just go on and marry. And my daddy said, " ; Well, now okay. I' ; m going to tell you about her." ; He said, " ; You know she got four brothers that' ; s older and they' ; ve always taken care of her." ; My daddy told Charles, " ; She' ; s lazy, she don' ; t know how to cook, she can' ; t even boil water. But, if you want to marry her and you love my daughter, you can marry her." ; He said, " ; But I tell you one thing, if you ever get tired of her, if you don' ; t have a car, put her in a cab and send her to me and I' ; ll pay for her." ; Charles used to tell me, " ; Lady, Lord I wish I had sent you home in a cab to your daddy." ; HUNTLEY: How long were you married? BILLUPS: Before he died, we had been married 22 years. HUNTLEY: So you had a short engagement but a long marriage? BILLUPS: Yes. And we were married three years before the first child was born. Because at that time he went to Booker T. Washington Business College, he finished there. He used to work three jobs. He worked at Conner Steel. He worked four hours a night at Pizitz as a janitor and, then he was going to school. He was going on the GI Bill. He finished that and he finished an " ; A" ; student. Mr. Gaston just loved him. HUNTLEY: Where did you live? BILLUPS: At that time we was staying in Irondale. My mother had converted her home into an apartment and we stayed there. And, then, in the latter part of 1949, we bought a house at the airport. That' ; s the house we' ; re living in when all these old things were happening. HUNTLEY: Your husband was very active in the NAACP. Were you active in the NAACP? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about that. What kind of activities did you get involved in? BILLUPS: Now, I at the time I was with him, but my husband was always, wherever they went, especially Mr. Patton, Mr. Gwen and Mr. Shortridge, these three men were very instrumental in his life and... HUNTLEY: W. C. Patton? BILLUPS: W. C. Patton. And, you know, Mr. Shortridge, he' ; s dead. You know he had the Shortridge Funeral Home. HUNTLEY: So these three individuals had quite an impact on what he would actually be a part of? BILLUPS: Right. HUNTLEY: Were you registered voters at the time? BILLUPS: My husband went, you know, he would carry this long list of things. Every time he would go they would always foul up and he had to go about six times before he passed. You know they asked you who was a senator, how many, who was this, and what about Alabama and everything. But, he finally went because what he did in our house, he would bring back things that he would miss on that registration thing, well, he would tell other people about it. So, he said, " ; Now, you got to go." ; I wasn' ; t voting then. But, when I went they had, as a matter of fact, they was still paying poll tax when he started voting, but right after then, you know, they stopped that poll tax thing and that' ; s when I went and I passed it on the first try. HUNTLEY: He had educated you? BILLUPS: Right. HUNTLEY: And he would bring other people in? BILLUPS: Actually into the house. HUNTLEY: And help them to qualify for registration. BILLUPS: Right. Qualify. HUNTLEY: In June 1956 the State of Alabama outlawed the operation of the NAACP and as a result of that the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized. Were you and your husband involved in that? BILLUPS: Yes. He was very involved and we were too, because he was. Because when he would go to the meetings, sometime I might get mad because everything was going on and we had a lot of old white reporters and all these police and everything out there. And actually I was a little bit timid about it. You know, he could talk me into doing things. HUNTLEY: You were afraid to get involved, you said you were timid? BILLUPS: I wasn' ; t afraid I was really just a little bit timid. And, I didn' ; t, you know... HUNTLEY: About his involvement? BILLUPS: Yes. Because I was always so afraid that he was going to get hurt because he was very outspoken. HUNTLEY: How close, how well did you know Fred Shuttlesworth? BILLUPS: Very, very well. HUNTLEY: Were he and your husband very closely associated even prior to the organization of the Alabama Christian Movement? BILLUPS: Well, no. They were, it was really after the organization. They did everything together. You know, even though it may not ever be mentioned, you know when Shuttlesworth took the boys and Rev. Pfeiffer... HUNTLEY: To Phillips High School? BILLUPS: Yes, well, my husband was with them then. HUNTLEY: He was with them? BILLUPS: Yes, and my husband was also, you know when his home, the first time he was bombed, I was at work, but he had the girls in the car with him and do you know they went over there? HUNTLEY: They went to his house? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: This is in December of ' ; 56? BILLUPS: Yes, and don' ; t you know if I had known my children was out there, I would have left work and beat him up, I think. HUNTLEY: Now, I talked with your daughter also. She said there were times when they would take you to work and, then, he would say that he' ; s going to take the girls back home but the girls would not go back home, they would go to the meeting with him? BILLUPS: Right. HUNTLEY: When did you find out about that? BILLUPS: Oh, I guess about a year or so, they were doing that. And, one night, the baby, she was 4 and, then she turned 5. She said, " ; Momma, you know what? I saw my daddy coming in the house but he had his shoes off and he was backing through the door." ; And, after then, because he got beat up in ' ; 57. After all of that going, whatever he was doing, he would take me and the children. He would take me to work from 11 to 7. And he would take them down to the motel. Because that one in there one night was sleeping and the man next door had dogs and he had chains on them and the dogs had gotten loose. So they were going back and forth because my porch, we had a concrete porch, and she thought it was the Ku Klux Klan out there trying to get them. HUNTLEY: This is your daughter (inaudible)? BILLUPS: Yes. That one in there. And that' ; s when they got afraid to stay at home by themselves. And that' ; s why he would take them with him every night, you know. HUNTLEY: He would essentially take them with him so that they would not be afraid? BILLUPS: Yes. He would be in all night meetings and I thought the children would be at home in the bed and they would be down there with their daddy. HUNTLEY: So what was happening then, you were, in fact, working 11:00 at night to 7:00 in the morning? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And he would take you to work and, then, he was going to the meetings so he would have to carry his children with him and, then, they would do their homework or whatever they needed to do in the car? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And, you then, would eventually find out about it and what were your reactions when you found out? BILLUPS: Oh, I can' ; t even tell you. It was horrible at first, because I was not disgusted, I was afraid that something was going to happen to the children. And, see, in ' ; 57 was when my husband was beaten up. HUNTLEY: Was he working at Hayes? BILLUPS: Hayes Aircraft, yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me the circumstances of that? BILLUPS: Yes. They had the white bathroom and the Black bathroom, but the Black bathroom was always filled. And he said one night after about 11:30 he just got tired of waiting. So he went and took a bath in the bath house for the whites and for 3-4 days they didn' ; t do anything to him. But on about the 4th or 5th day, he was riding with one of our neighbors. They used to go back and forth to work on the 3 to 11. And, on the 4th night I sat up all night long because I said, because he had kind of a bad stomach and I used to sit up to keep the dinner kind of warm for him. But he never showed up and I couldn' ; t imagine what had happened. And, then, about 4:00 that morning Rev. Smith came. HUNTLEY: Was that N. H. Smith? BILLUPS: Yes, he was our pastor then. He said, " ; Alma Ree, we got to go. We got to go to the hospital." ; I said, " ; What' ; s wrong, what' ; s wrong?" ; He wouldn' ; t tell me. And, he started to give me Charles' ; coat that was in a brown bag, but he said, " ; No, you don' ; t need to see this." ; Because it was just a bloody mess, you know. And when I got over there they had him and he was bleeding so until they had to put a big cradle over him, they couldn' ; t let the sheet come down on him because it was, where they had beat him up, they took him. He said they took sticker briars in those wounds. They beat him with chains. He had to die with those chain marks on him. And Rev. Smith said, " ; We' ; ll just burn these clothes up." ; He stayed in the hospital two weeks. And every time I' ; d go, I' ; d just be so mad and everything. But he said, " ; Well, I' ; m going to pray for them." ; And he said that where they took him, you know where Eastwood Mall is, you know? That used to be all wooded area. They used to call it Hammons and 78 Highway. They took him off the job in his truck. Made him lay down in the truck. And when they got him so far this man, I won' ; t call his name, because he' ; s a well know southern preacher, they stayed three houses from me. He rode by my house and he did not tell me. HUNTLEY: Well, did they actually take him from the job? BILLUPS: They cut him out, they blocked, when he was coming from the job, they blocked the truck and took him out. HUNTLEY: Forcibly taken him out? BILLUPS: Forcibly took him out of this man' ; s truck. HUNTLEY: And, then the neighbor came on home and he never said anything to you? BILLUPS: He never said anything. He never said a word. But, anyway, my husband said he prayed and everything. HUNTLEY: Did you talk with him any time after that? BILLUPS: Yes, a lot of times. HUNTLEY: Did he ever say why he did not mention it to you? BILLUPS: Yes, my husband said he told him that they told him if he said anything they was going to kill him. But he never. Well, he had to ride right by my house, just three doors from me. HUNTLEY: So that obviously raised a questions? BILLUPS: Yes. Because he had to tell them what route that they was going to take. HUNTLEY: Were these men ever apprehended or prosecuted? BILLUPS: No. They weren' ; t. Because my husband say when they got through beating him up, they said that they were going to kill him because they were trying. Every time they said, " ; Where you get money, or what you do?" ; So he would say, " ; Mr. Gwen." ; They knew he was a Black man. They was trying to make him say Gwen or, you know, not call him mister. But my husband knew he was older so he always called him Mister. That' ; s one of the reason' ; s he got beat up as bad as he did, because he wouldn' ; t stop saying Mister. HUNTLEY: This is a Black man that he' ; s saying Mr. to? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: In that culture it was not acceptable as far as whites were concerned. So he was beaten even more so for referring to Mr. Gwen as Mister. BILLUPS: Yes, and so, they got together, they whispered they wanted to kill him. But somebody, my husband was a mason and he had his ring on. And he said they had him tied to a tree and everything when one of them happen to get that finger. He believes that' ; s one of the reasons he believe they didn' ; t kill him. Because when they felt that ring, he said they got together, " ; We ain' ; t going to kill this nigger, just leave him up here." ; They untied him and they got in their cars and they left. He had to crawl back to 78 Highway out of those woods. When he got down there, two police cars from the city was sitting there. HUNTLEY: This is out near the place where he was beaten? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: How did you know to go out there? BILLUPS: No. They took him to the hospital. In other words, what I was saying, I believe that they knew they were up there. They had to hear him hollering. They were sitting there when he crawled down the road, they just picked him up and said, " ; Nigger, some more niggers just beat you up. You better not say no white people beat you up." ; HUNTLEY: So the police then took him to the hospital? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And then you and Rev. Smith went to the hospital? BILLUPS: Right. HUNTLEY: And he was hospitalized for two weeks? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Now, as a wife were you upset with the men that had beat him up, or were you upset with your husband for being involved, or what were your feelings? BILLUPS: I was hating the white people. No. I wasn' ; t upset with my husband, but I was fully angry and hating, full of hate for the white man. And, after he went to the hospital, the Movement, you know they sent people out to stand guard around the house for me and the children, but we couldn' ; t sleep. And, when he got home he told them to just go on and said the Lord was going to take care of us. But you know, while he was in the hospital they called and told me, " ; When that nigger get out of the hospital, you all best to be out of Alabama by 5:00 or we going to come back and bomb all of y' ; all." ; So, through those years, we got several bomb threats. And every time my daddy always kept, it was a little old cab company in Irondale. And daddy always kept it handy because it might be trouble and I would have to uproot myself and my children. HUNTLEY: Did you ever have to do that? Did you have to leave home as a result of threats? BILLUPS: Yes. Because I was scared. And the neighbors would say, " ; Those Billups going to get us bombed, they going to get us killed." ; HUNTLEY: So the neighbors then were not supportive? BILLUPS: Not at all. They ostracized us. HUNTLEY: So you were more or less isolated? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Well, what about the people from the Movement? Were they supportive? BILLUPS: Yes. They were. They were. I' ; m telling you now they were, but it was so nerve-racking for men to be standing around the house and you thinking that if they left they was going to get you anyway. So Charles just kind of dismissed them. Told them that' ; s all right. HUNTLEY: Well, I' ; m sure that on your job, what occupation did you have? BILLUPS: I' ; m a Licensed Practical Nurse. HUNTLEY: You' ; re an LPN. And where did you work? BILLUPS: University. HUNTLEY: Was that where he was taken when he was beaten? BILLUPS: Yes, but I wasn' ; t working there at the time. But that' ; s where he was taken. HUNTLEY: Do you remember any incidences that may have taken place that resulted from your simply being the wife of Rev. Billups? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Can you tell me about them? BILLUPS: I had a supervisor, named Joyce Hilder. She hated, you know. HUNTLEY: This is a white supervisor? BILLUPS: That was my white supervisor. And I guess she kept up with all news clippings and everything. Because I was watched wherever, you know, anytime. And, like when time for promotion or anything, I didn' ; t get... HUNTLEY: Where was this? Where were you working? BILLUPS: This was University, in the nursery. I worked in University Hospital in the nursery. And I know she made, like you know, you could be charge nurse up on your shift, and there would be people there, I would have to help them be in charge, but she wouldn' ; t name me that, because it would make me have a bigger salary or something like that, but I outgrew that. But the main thing is that the resentment that the doctors gave us. They would come along, you know like when you, at that time, you know I wasn' ; t an RN, I was a licensed. You couldn' ; t get into that until you was about 35. But there was a shortage of nurses. You know they opened up that program and they sent you to Montgomery with the State Board and you passed. But, they would call, say one of the University of Alabama student nurses, Mrs., Miss but we were always " ; Nurse this" ; or " ; Girl" ; and they were gals for some of them. HUNTLEY: So they referred to white as Miss or Mrs? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And referred to Blacks as " ; Nurse" ; ? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: I' ; m very familiar with that. My mother is an LPN also. On your job, as you worked and Rev. Billups was very active, did you ever lose a job or were you ever threatened with loss of job as a result of his activity? BILLUPS: I' ; ve never lost a job. But I was threatened with misusing sick time. Being absent, or being late. Because some nights Charles and them, they would be so involved in the meeting, I was supposed to be at work at 11:00. They watched my time clock. Sometime I' ; d hit at 11:30. Sometimes ten minutes after. But everyone of those times, and you know if you got as many as 3 to 4 you know, you was called to the office about tardiness. If you called in, you had sick time but you couldn' ; t take it. A lot of times I didn' ; t have a friend that I could leave the baby with, I had to call in sick but you couldn' ; t take it because you was threatened with your job. And, a lot of times I would be sitting up waiting on him to come and take me to work 11 to 7. I wasn' ; t driving then. And here somebody out and blowing, come to the door, " ; Mrs. Billups, your husband told us to come bring you to work." ; I' ; d get in the car cursing. Excuse the language. I would be so angry. And they would just laugh at me. Let me tell you this little incident, and, then, I' ; m going to let you have it, because I' ; ll talk you to death. One time, I was getting ready to go to work. And Charles had got somebody to take me and, then, just before I left, here he come. And I know you know James Bevel, and there were two white persons that was in the Movement, you know how they were, with the Freedom Riders. And there was a Englishman that was a minister, he was white too. I called in. I took all of my linen, took all the towels, I took everything. I was mad with Charles because I hated white people. I took everything out of my house I thought that he could use. Called a cab and went to my daddy. And, that minister he said, " ; I understand what you' ; re going through." ; Because he knew that my husband had been in the Movement. And do you know for several years, until he lost contact, he used to write me. He said, " ; I can understand because the things that you went through, the way he treated you." ; You know what they did, they laughed at me and they slept on paper. HUNTLEY: Is that right? So you were determined that you were not going to assist any white person? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And you were not going to be cooperative at that point? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And that was based upon what had taken place in your life prior to then? BILLUPS: Yes. Let me tell you this one incident. You know, at that time, we were going to, we had missions from house to house. And I was down to one of the neighbors at a mission. And they said my husband was at some meeting or something, something had happened. They said he placed his hand on a policeman, they came to arrest him. And when they got there he was there with the children. And, my daughter, the middle daughter, she always (inaudible) " ; Momma, if they throw my daddy up against that paddy wagon, or if they do something to my daddy, I' ; m going to scratch them." ; And they came in to arrest him, some minor thing. And she grabbed one of them by the leg and went to work on his legs. HUNTLEY: How old was she at the time? BILLUPS: She was six. But do you know what? (inaudible). She was fighting for her daddy. And they was going, they took him on to jail, but they gave the neighbors chance to come down to the other neighbors house and get me. Because see the neighbors (inaudible) and Charlotte was three years older than them (inaudible). HUNTLEY: What was the most difficult thing you had to endure as a result of being the wife of Rev. Billups? BILLUPS: Because we were (inaudible) and we was in the process of remodeling our house. And we had tried several banks for a loan but when they looked his record up, they would not, I mean our house was in the very process. I mean the windows, everything was out. HUNTLEY: You mean the, this is as a result of a bombing? BILLUPS: No, no, no. He was remodeling the house, making it larger. HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. BILLUPS: The contractors were working and they had assured him that he could get a loan, you know what I' ; m saying. And we had to put plastic, we had a great big bay window in the front. That window stayed plastic up, all the winter and I had to go to my mothers (inaudible) because when they found out he was civil rights and got his picture and everything, everybody refused to give him a loan. Everything. You know who was instrumental in helping us in getting that job completed, was Virgil Harris, you know of Protective Industrial Insurance. At that time my job was stable, and he let us have enough money to complete that house. HUNTLEY: So banks would not loan you the money because of the activity he was involved in? BILLUPS: Because of his activity. Even then, at that time, of course we were going to Chicago then. He had put in for a position for a postman. He passed the test. He did everything. He didn' ; t fight it. Because when it came back they said he had too many jail arrests. He had been arrested 23 times. HUNTLEY: So he passed the test? BILLUPS: He passed the test. HUNTLEY: But they would not allow him because of activity in the Movement? BILLUPS: No. HUNTLEY: So these are difficult situations that you had to endure as a result of your involvement? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: I know that as a wife of a very active individual like that, there were probably times when you said that you wished that he was not involved in the Movement? BILLUPS: That' ; s right. HUNTLEY: How often did you feel that way? Did you tell him that? BILLUPS: Yes. Sometimes I would. And, sometimes I would leave him. I would leave him. But look, and, then, I was, because you see, I was my daddy' ; s baby. And, a lot of times when things got screwed up, you know the telephone being bugged or something like that and we didn' ; t even know. The man would come in and say, " ; We came in to fix your phone." ; We were so naive. We did not know they would be on the line and everything. Sometime the telephone started ringing and ring for hours and hours. You' ; d pick it up and it was still ringing. So, at times like that I would get angry and I would go to my daddy' ; s. And my daddy and I would talk about Charles and I' ; d say, " ; Daddy." ; And he' ; d say, " ; Oh, yes. You can come to me anytime." ; My mother said, " ; You best to go back home to your husband." ; But, uh, those were just times that I would, you know, I miss him. I love him. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the demonstrations of 1963? When Dr. King was here and they eventually got children involved? They demonstrated several days consistently. BILLUPS: That I remember because Bevel and Charles was the ones that mostly would be going to the schools to get the children out. But he wouldn' ; t let Charlotte join. Of course, Charlotte was just like he used to be at one time, in that would fight. She would say, " ; Now, daddy will do the marching for you." ; Because Charlotte, my daughter, has never been a calm person. And he felt like if anybody hit her or she was going to hit them back. And that' ; s what they were teaching, non-violence, you know. And he didn' ; t believe she could be non-violent. And, but, now I' ; ll tell you, the one that has hurt the most was my daughter Renee. And she went everywhere with him. When they was marching to the courthouse. HUNTLEY: She did march? BILLUPS: Yes, she did. HUNTLEY: Was she ever arrested? BILLUPS: No, she was never arrested. And, you know when they were marching from New Pilgrim to the city jail and when they got so far, Bull Conner came out with his dogs, you know and things like that, they was going to get them. And, my husband was the one that said, let' ; s pray. And, when they knelt down and prayed, Bull didn' ; t put the water on them. Now, before, I had a bad fire in my house, I could show you a picture where my husband got bit by the dogs. They stripped his shirt. HUNTLEY: You have a picture of it? BILLUPS: It got burned. HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of the demonstrations? BILLUPS: Well, no I never. Yes. Well, I wasn' ; t really in the demonstrations, but you know when they went going back across to Selma. Okay. You remember Brown Memorial or Brown Methodist, one of them. He took me and the children. He said, " ; Come on, baby and go on with me." ; I said, " ; No, I' ; m going to stay out here with my children." ; Didn' ; t know I was standing out there in trouble. And they were in that church and they were packed. I mean just packed. He tried his best. I said, " ; No, I' ; m going to sit out here with the babies." ; And do you know that while we was sitting in the car, looked around and see all these white people clad in these sheets and I seen the Ku Klux was out there. And I had to ease Charlotte into the church to tell them that the Ku Klux Klan was walking back and forth. You see, I should have went on in the church with them. Oh, Lord, I could tell you so much. But it' ; s just no need to just keep talking. But they had to come out and get us. They were out there and they was talking about " ; We going to kill them niggers." ; I said, " ; Oh, Charlotte." ; I laid the babies down on the seat. " ; Go on and ease in there and tell your daddy the Ku Klux out here." ; HUNTLEY: So you sent her? BILLUPS: I sent her in the church. HUNTLEY: I know that during that ' ; 63 demonstration you were very active and after that, Rev. Billups then, I guess then he was sent to Chicago with Dr. Martin Luther King? BILLUPS: Yes, well, Dr. King went there. And my husband went because he said the girls were growing up. And you know, because I had been working for two and a half years and my husband hadn' ; t worked anywhere because he was either with the Movement or he couldn' ; t get work. And he said, " ; I' ; m going to let you sit down." ; We went to Chicago actually, we was still working, he was. But, actually he went to find a better job. HUNTLEY: He went to find a better job, but he happened to have been there when Martin Luther King came. BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: And, then, he became involved in Operation Breadbasket. BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: Operation Breadbasket? BILLUPS: Operation Breadbasket and everything. Now, I' ; ll tell you what I did do. I went to the March on Washington and, then I went, you know when they had the Resurrection City, I went to that. But, we got private planes and I got some pictures in there somewhere. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the March on Washington? BILLUPS: It was a glorious time. To be there at the Lincoln Memorial and to hear that exhilarating speech that was something else. And that' ; s when I really and truly, really, I was for everything then. Back then my life just got happier then. HUNTLEY: Let me back up just a bit. During the time that the Movement was meeting, did you attend any of the mass meetings? BILLUPS: Yes. Are you talking about the Alabama Christian Movement? HUNTLEY: Yes. BILLUPS: Oh, my goodness, every Monday night when I wasn' ; t working. HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what a mass meeting was like? BILLUPS: ...either with the Movement or he couldn' ; t get work. And he said, I' ; m going to let you sit down. We went to Chicago and actually, we were still working, he was, but actually he went to find a better job. HUNTLEY: He went to find a better job, but he happened to have been there when Dr. Martin Luther King came and, then, he became involved. BILLUPS: Yes, and that Operation Breadbasket and everything. Now, I' ; ll tell you what I did do. I went to the March on Washington. And, then, I went, you know when they had the (inaudible), I went to that. You know, groups, we got private plans and we flew there. HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the March on Washington? BILLUPS: It was a glorious time. To be there (inaudible). To be there at the Lincoln Memorial and to hear that exhilarating speech that was something else. And that' ; s when I really and truly, you know, really, I was for everything then. Back then my life just got happier then. HUNTLEY: Let me back up just a bit. During the time that the Movement was meeting, did you attend any of the mass meetings? BILLUPS: Yes. Are you talking about the Alabama Christian Movement? HUNTLEY: Yes. BILLUPS: Oh, my goodness, every Monday night when I wasn' ; t working. HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what a mass meeting was like? BILLUPS: Yes. There were lots of singing, lots of oratorical speeches, lot of reporters, lots of police and lots of our speakers. Happy times and, then, Dr. King would come then and make a speech after Shuttlesworth and others invited him into Birmingham. Yes, I enjoyed that. That was a rallying time. HUNTLEY: Someone told me that being at a mass meeting was like being at a revival. BILLUPS: It was like being at a revival. And, then, when you get on the outside, here' ; s all these folks standing out there. One day, because I vividly remember one night, Charles, the children and I were coming out. Charles, you know, they used to let some of the men out of the movement would stand on the outside to try to keep watch. And the policeman was coming in and some kind of way, accidently, Charles brushed against him or something and they brought the paddy wagon right there to the meeting and threw him up against the paddy wagon. That was about the third time they had seen him thrown against the paddy wagon. That' ; s the reason why she always said she was going to kill the police. Because they would throw him against that paddy wagon and pat him down and throw him up in the truck. One time, he was coming to take me to work and they took down...you know how these signs, you know, where you' ; re supposed to stop at a crossing. And, what they did, they took it down. They knew what time he was going to come. They waited on him, they picked at him every night. They somehow or another knocked that sign down and he ran through it. HUNTLEY: The sign was not up? BILLUPS: No. You know it was kind of like those signs up in front of my house. You know like " ; yield?" ; HUNTLEY: Right. BILLUPS: They were thrown down so my husband would go through it and that' ; s the way they would be. HUNTLEY: What would they do? Were you ever with him? BILLUPS: No, I never was, because they never let him get home. They' ; d stop him, keep him down there about two hours and that would throw me two hours late and I' ; d have to call one of the neighbors or call my daddy to come and carry me to work. And there have been times, like when the Sixteenth Street bombing and my husband was there. At that particular time I was assigned to the fourth floor. They followed me down, because the supervisor or somebody, see my co-workers would tell the supervisors. I mean, even if we got a car, they would get us. But anyway, she came on my floor and she said, " ; I heard your nigger husband was down in the emergency room. But you better not go off this floor." ; HUNTLEY: This is your supervisor? BILLUPS: My supervisor, Joyce Hilder. And, here my co-workers looking at me, a little bit of scorn. HUNTLEY: It' ; s difficult even to imagine. BILLUPS: She said my " ; nigger husband" ; so I' ; m sure those are not your views. HUNTLEY: What was your reaction? BILLUPS: You really want to know? HUNTLEY: Yes. BILLUPS: Would you really want to know? HUNTLEY: I really want to know. BILLUPS: I wish I had a knife or some scissors or something stuck in her back. But I know better now. You know what, when they would, walk around so solemn and they couldn' ; t figure me out. I never talked about my husband. I never, nothing he was doing or anything. Everything they read, they read in the paper or either they heard it over the radio, Channel 6. I don' ; t know whether you could remember, you might be too young. There was an old reporter named Davenport Smith. And, every time my husband was arrested he blared it out on the news. Charles Billups. HUNTLEY: So then, when you went to Chicago, did you still work as a nurse? BILLUPS: Yes. I worked for a while, because Charles told me to sit down. For two years I sat down. But I had just gotten a job at St. Luke' ; s to work and I had worked there about two months before he died. HUNTLEY: And what kind of work did he do? BILLUPS: My husband? Oh, yes. He worked at a chain of stores they called National Tea Company. And they had a chain of stores all over Illinois, Wisconsin and Iowa. And, they made him, because the man that owned these stores was a multimillionaire. And, he only finished the eighth grade. He was a self-made millionaire, and that' ; s why he fell in love with Charles, because he wanted to do something. He told my husband, he said that when his son finished college, he tried to put him in Harvard University, but because he hadn' ; t graduated and wasn' ; t a member or nothing, he couldn' ; t. And, he' ; s a multimillionaire. He couldn' ; t get his son there. So he made, Charles worked there for about six months, and, then he made him Director of Human Relations. And, that' ; s where he was working when he died. And everybody at the company hated him. HUNTLEY: Why? BILLUPS: Because he moved up too fast. And, even the people that (inaudible) I mean, our own Black people, they gave...Mr. (inaudible) gave Charles a watch, a gold watch with his name printed on it. I never went to those meetings at night. But Rene always went with her daddy. She was always afraid something was going to happen to him. He had his own office, everything. But, she went to one particular meeting and he got up and was talking, they were going to transfer some stores up to West side you know that' ; s where (inaudible). And, I will not call the name. HUNTLEY: You mean your husband got up to talk at a Breadbasket meeting? BILLUPS: Right. HUNTLEY: About the movement or putting some stores on the west side... BILLUPS: Because the stores, there were like Brunos and Food Fair. You know Bruno' ; s moved all their dated, old dated stuff in these stores in the Black neighborhoods and that' ; s what they would be doing. They had given him this gold watch because he had done so well for two years. One of the head Black people in Operation Breadbasket, when he was showing him the watch, because you see my husband was a poor man and he wasn' ; t really used to a lot of stuff, you know. And he was showing him his watch with his name on it. My daughter said they took that watch in that meeting, and this Black man, well known, took his foot. HUNTLEY: Who was that person? BILLUPS: I won' ; t call his name. Took his foot and slammed it down. And Renee jumped up. He said, " ; Baby, you going to get us killed. We got to get out of here." ; A well-known Black man. Because if I call his name you' ; ll know, and I don' ; t want to do that. HUNTLEY: So your husband actually had the watch in his hand? BILLUPS: Oh, just had it, he had just gotten it that day. HUNTLEY: And he took it and put it on the floor and... BILLUPS: Yes. And took his foot. HUNTLEY: What was the reason for him doing that? BILLUPS: Because they said that because he was making money and saying he was not working for Black people anymore, he was working for the white man and stuff like that. HUNTLEY: So your husband actually became involved with Dr. King when he came to Chicago and convinced the Movement to go into Cicero? BILLUPS: Yes. He went to Cicero, got his hand broke. He said, " ; Baby, they beat our butts in Cicero." ; He got his hand broke. They throwed a brick. He caught it. That hand stayed in a cast about six to nine weeks. He said, " ; They beat us in Cicero." ; Of course, I wasn' ; t with them there in Cicero, I was at home with the children. HUNTLEY: So your husband, after he moved to Chicago, he became again well known as a result of his activity there? BILLUPS: Right. HUNTLEY: But he also had a job and he was well known on the job? BILLUPS: Right. HUNTLEY: He was liked on the job by the owner of the company, but he was disliked by the.. BILLUPS: By the people, whites and Blacks that were working there. HUNTLEY: Because he had moved up in the company rather fast? BILLUPS: Right. HUNTLEY: And, then, what happened? BILLUPS: He had an expense account and he could do anything with that money that he wanted. The fact is we bought cars, Charles didn' ; t know how to fix cars, so we bought cars every year. I mean he ordered a car every year in October. And, the last car we bought was in, that car was five years old when he died. And, when he parked the car, he had his own parking space there, because he had his own office. And, it just so happened that one of the men, and he was a Jew. One of the men, he didn' ; t know this man' ; s car. He didn' ; t know he had a car. When he parked his car, now the other employees told him, you know that man' ; s stealing your car. HUNTLEY: The Jewish man. BILLUPS: Yes. Yes. HUNTLEY: Well, how did your husband die? BILLUPS: Well, we don' ; t know. He was shot, but I don' ; t know. HUNTLEY: He was shot? BILLUPS: No details. The police say they couldn' ; t find anything. BILLUPS: He was coming from work. HUNTLEY: He was shot? BILLUPS: Yes. He was shot. HUNTLEY: Where was he found? BILLUPS: He was found in his car. All identification and everything was taken off him. No identification. The only way they found me is that they went under the hood and found that he had bought his car at Hyde Park Chevrolet and, they went from the motor number. And, the children were just coming in from school. When they did the autopsy they said it looks like whenever he was shot, it was right after he had had lunch. Because he had had in his stomach, something like a hamburger, Coca Cola. And, you know, your food digests. It takes about 4-6 hours for your food to digest. So his food hadn' ; t even digested. They believe maybe that he was shot on company property and put in this particular place. But they never, they came, the detectives. Some Black detective that got to be a real good friend of mine, he come and look all over the house because he said " ; You know when I told you I want to see all of your books and encyclopedias?" ; He said, " ; Do you know what I was looking for?" ; He said, " ; I was looking for some blood." ; He said, " ; Because you and your daughter killed him." ; HUNTLEY: He had suggested that you and your daughter had... BILLUPS: Me and my daughter had killed him. And look, neither one of us, all of us started to driving after my husband was dead. None of us could even drive a car. HUNTLEY: So then it appeared that someone had robbed him? BILLUPS: Yes. They took everything off him. We had just left Birmingham. We had a sticker from the New Pilgrim credit union, and he had drawn out all of his money from the credit union. And he had my income tax check, mine and his together. And, he had Charlotte' ; s because Charlotte was working. Three checks on him. They did not, they have not ever. I had to go to the morgue to identify the body. And they had an inquest and they claimed they couldn' ; t find no glasses, no shoes, no socks. There was no blood in the car. HUNTLEY: But he had been shot? And there was no blood in the car? BILLUPS: He had been shot five times in the chest and the bullets, two or three came through his back. They turned him over, back and forth to let me look at him. Rev. Evans, that' ; s another one that I would like to include. Rev. Clay Evans was our pastor and he' ; s the one that took care of us, because we were there for about another year. HUNTLEY: You said he didn' ; t have on shoes or socks? BILLUPS: He had on his socks and, of course they had to take him to the hospital to do the autopsy. He had nothing but his socks. HUNTLEY: That' ; s obviously a very devastating story. If you would look back, in the days that you were in Birmingham and if you had the potential of changing what took place, say between the time that you were married and 1963, what would you change? BILLUPS: The big thing is the education of young people. Taking them higher. Reap some of the benefits that these men suffered for. Men and women. I wish things like that. More religious, more getting together by Black people. Because, you know, we are still far apart. And do you realize now, my husband never got a chance to see any one of his grandchildren. I have a grandson that' ; s 17, I have a grandson that' ; s 15. I have a granddaughter that' ; s 16. And, I have another granddaughter that goes to the University of Alabama that' ; s 25. She' ; s been to Venezuela and she works at Books-A-Million and goes to school and she' ; s got three more months and she would have finished. She speaks Latin, very well. And, I had wanted her to be here today but she had to work. I wanted her to be here because she' ; s in Black history studies. That' ; s one of her main things. HUNTLEY: Where is she in school? BILLUPS: At the University of Alabama. She says she wants to go to Florida A& ; M to get her masters if she can, because she wants to get more Black stuff. She' ; s always interviewing me and I' ; m going to take her back to the old town soon. That' ; s what she' ; s into. HUNTLEY: Then, would you, if you could, would you limit your husband' ; s involvement if you could go back in time? BILLUPS: Not a thing. I wouldn' ; t change nothing. I' ; m just as proud of him as I can be. Even though there were times when I wished I had a stick to beat him,(laughter...), but my husband was a hustler. My husband one time talked Adamson Ford out of a brand new car and didn' ; t even have a job. Came home shaking the keys. HUNTLEY: Is that right? BILLUPS: Yes. HUNTLEY: I see you' ; re very proud of him. Let me ask you. Anything else that we have not touched on that you would like to include on this tape that' ; s related to the Movement or to your family? BILLUPS: Well, to my family, to my mother and father who were very supportive. They loved my husband and they are gone on, and they' ; re a memory. And the same year that my husband died, my mother, my father died the next year, one month apart. My brother died the next year. For five years I was going to Davenport & ; Harris getting people ready. I just hope that wherever he is, his spirit, that he can look down and see his grandchildren and even look down at me, even with my back, my 70 year old self and he' ; ll just look back and see that we are happy. If there was anything I could change, yes, maybe I could change the way people used to look on him, because they called him millionnaire, ugly, (inaudible) at the mouth. If I could change some of that. I have seen him cry. I have seen him happy. And, for awhile he was going on this thing about his father. He didn' ; t know who his father was. He had a bad childhood. And there was a minister that his mother used to quote, a Rev. Robert Alford. He' ; s dead now. He used to pastor old Sardis. And she told him that was his father and he got in a group of boys. He was about 10 or 11 years and he asked Robert Alford was he his daddy? He said, " ; Yes, son, I' ; m your father." ; And that made him feel good. But one of his main things, he had a (inaudible) biggest people, every place he was kind of scorned. And he was just beginning. When our first baby was born and to me she was the ugliest thing that you could see. She was so ugly, he bought five outfits to the hospital. He said, " ; Now, whichever one she look the best in." ; He was just that proud of his children. I wish they could have seen their grandfather. HUNTLEY: Well, I' ; m sure that all of them are very proud of you. BILLUPS: I tell you what. It' ; s been a struggle. I have tried to hold on. My husband left me in a house, I never stayed in an apartment or project. He always had a house for me. And I been struggling around and (inaudible) if I live long enough, I will at least be able to leave this house, paid for, to my children. HUNTLEY: Well, you have been a strength. Not just for your children and family but for a lot of people in the community. So I would just like to thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to sit with us today. BILLUPS: Thank you for listening to me. You know what? When this thing first started, it hurt me so bad because they never asked me (inaudible). But nobody at the Institute or anywhere else has ever asked me about my feelings. So I appreciate you coming. HUNTLEY: Well, thank you for having me. BILLUPS: I hope I have something good. HUNTLEY: You have said an awful lot. BILLUPS: But, now let me just end this by saying, " ; Wherever you are, Charles, I love you. Whatever may have gone on, whatever anybody has ever said, whatever, I love you. I still love you." ; I never married. I could have married. I never married. I don' ; t think I could have found anybody else. I didn' ; t want to marry. I had my children. I took care of them. And, I have a daughter in North Carolina and I got one that lives in Bush Blvd and this daughter that is ill and stays with me. HUNTLEY: History will look at you as being one of those heroines of Birmingham, because all that you' ; ve endured, you and your family have endured an awful lot, and we as a community appreciate what you' ; ve done for all of us. This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ABillups1995.xml ABillups1995.xml
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Almarie Billups
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Almarie Billups discusses being deeply involved in the Movement with her husband, Charles Billups. She worked hard balancing supporting her family and supporting the Movement.
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19950628B
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Billups, Charles
S.C.L.C. Operation Breadbasket
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1995-06-28
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video
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8e63a217caf317c7c7b68d73d469c60b
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Betty Hanson
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Robert Hughes
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http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RHughes1995.xml
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Alabama Council on Human Relations
Lucy, Autherine, 1930-
Ku Klux Klan (1915- )
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5.4 June 23, 1995 Rev. Robert Hughes 19950623HR 1:20:27 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Emily Reynolds Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 Alabama Council on Human Relations Lucy, Autherine, 1930- Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) Robert Hughes Betty Hanson Video 1:|16(5)|37(9)|54(6)|71(12)|85(7)|98(9)|106(16)|120(5)|128(15)|137(12)|145(2)|152(3)|167(10)|182(6)|196(4)|217(14)|227(6)|235(11)|246(5)|261(10)|278(1)|289(1)|305(7)|328(5)|338(2)|346(11)|374(9)|386(15)|401(3)|413(6)|431(10)|443(7)|454(9)|471(11)|481(2)|491(2)|502(4)|513(10)|522(1)|539(2)|547(11)|561(1)|580(6)|595(5)|610(10)|620(17)|632(5)|640(9)|652(15)|663(4)|673(1)|682(1)|694(14)|704(14)|714(11)|727(1)|743(4)|752(10)|763(9)|773(9)|782(2)|793(12)|804(4)|814(11)|824(5)|836(9)|848(6)|864(9)|873(5)|884(8)|895(1)|917(5)|930(2)|937(10)|948(9)|963(5)|973(9)|982(2)|993(11)|1000(9) 0 https://youtu.be/uOVVo9Vs4To YouTube video English 0 Interview Introduction Bob, give your full name and where you are now. Introduction to interview with Rev. Robert Hughes. Methodist Church--Clergy--Biography 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 33 Seattle Depart. of Justice Work But, prior to that, you were doing some interesting work in Seattle, just a brief statement before we get to the Alabama history. Rev. Hughes shares a brief statement about his community-based work for the U.S. Department of Justice. United States--Race relations United States. Department of Justice 59 Early Work as Methodist Minister So you were trained as a minister, however, and ordained as a Methodist minister? Rev. Hughes discusses his early work as a Methodist minister in Alabama, and the racial/political climate during the time. Alabama State College ; Southern Regional Council ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) Alabama Council on Human Relations ; United States--Race relations 179 Montgomery and the Alabama Council on Human Relations When you came to Montgomery, you agreed to come and start the Alabama Council on Human Relations, is that correct? Rev. Hughes describes his early work in support of the Alabama Council on Human Relations and its office in Montgomery, Alabama. Abernathy, Ralph, 1926-1990 ; African Americans--Segregation ; Anacortes Lutheran Church ; Gretz, Bob ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Montgomery County (Ala.) ; Nixon, E.D. ; Parks, Rosa, 1913-2005 ; Southern Baptist Convention African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Alabama Council on Human Relations ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) 886 Clergy and Community Response to Desegregation Efforts The boycott, the bus protest as we called it in that time, to avoid, for legal purposes, that was a year long event that culminated in the final decision of the Supreme Court. Rev. Hughes discusses the intersection of his ministry work and civil rights work, and describes the reaction of his community. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Methodist Church (U.S.). Alabama Conference ; Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 ; Rockford (Ala.) African Americans--Segregation ; Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) 1384 Parents and Family History in Alabama Let's go back to how your attitudes even arose and, then, we'll zip forward and talk more about what happened when you were here in Birmingham and your involvement in the Klan's opposition to you, and so forth. But the Hughes family founded Gadsden. Rev. Hughes shares about his family background, his parents' education and employment, and how his family influenced his life. Education--Southern States ; Forrest, Nathan Bedford, 1821-1877 ; Iron and steel workers--United States ; Sampson, Emma ; Slavery--United States ; Streight, Abel D. ; United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 ; University of Alabama Gadsden (Ala.) ; Methodist Church--United States--Clergy--Biography ; Southern States--Genealogy 1794 Education, Gap-Year, and Decision to Join Ministry You went to the University of Alabama and did undergraduate work, didn't you? Rev. Hughes describes his path to ministry, which included studying at the University of Alabama, working at the United Nations, and taking a gap year to work with and organize on behalf of ship crew laborers in New York. Gadsden (Ala.) ; Jones, E. Stanley (Eli Stanley), 1884-1973 ; Merchant mariners--Accommodations on shipboard ; New York Harbor (N.Y. and N.J.) ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) ; United Nations ; University of Alabama ; YMCA of the USA Merchant mariners--Labor unions ; Methodist Church--United States--Clergy--Biography ; Southern States--Religion 2465 Return to Alabama and Ministry It's a wonderful history because it says, if I can leap with this, because I want to take you back to Montgomery. It says that you came with a very broad background. Rev. Hughes recalls moving back to Alabama and beginning his work with the Methodist Church and with the Alabama Council on Human Rights. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Alabama Council on Human Relations Civil rights--United States ; Montgomery (Ala.) 2620 Montgomery Bus Boycott and Shift in Public Understanding of Civil Rights Movement Okay, you're are working your plan very well. And in doing that -- give me your sequence here. What happened to the Alabama Chapter once the bus protest or boycott started? Did it disintegrate? Rev. Hughes discusses his work as a minister during the time of the Montgomery Bus Boycott, and how civil rights issues were addressed in his community. King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Lucy, Autherine, 1930- ; Race relations--Religious aspects ; Southern States--Race relations African Americans--Civil rights ; Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956 2848 Rise in White Nationalist Resistance to Civil Rights Movement And many things were happening in places like Tuskegee, for example, that weren't being publicized and this is one of the things that I was intent on getting out as well. Rev. Hughes discusses increased resistance of white nationalist groups and his continued support of civil rights issues. African Americans--Segregation ; Alabama Council on Human Relations ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Southern States--Race relations ; White nationalism African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; White Citizens councils 3414 News Coverage and Personal Threats Escalate When did you begin to contact and why did you begin to contact the national press corps? Talk a little bit about that and how you used them to put a window on this city a little bit. Rev. Hughes discusses speaking with the media about civil rights issues in Alabama, and describes the escalating threats made by white nationalist groups against his family -- including a cross being burned outside his home by the KKK. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Cross Burnings ; Race relations in the United States ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) Civil rights movements--Southern States--History--20th century ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; White Citizens councils 4360 Methodist Church's Response to Rev. Hughes Work What was the response of the Bishop and the hierarchy of the Methodist church? Rev. Hughes describes how Methodist clergy and leadership responded to his civil rights work. Methodist Church (U.S.). Alabama Conference ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Race relations--Religious aspects 4522 The New York Times Article on Birmingham Civil Rights Movement It culminated obviously in what happened later on, can I assume that? But let's go back to Harrison Salisbury. Now, you have been in contact with the national press because you have given interviews and so forth. Rev. Hughes discusses The New York Times article on segregation in Birmingham, and the reaction of the white community to the article. Birmingham News ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; New York Times ; Race relations--Periodicals ; Salisbury, Harrison E. (Harrison Evans), 1908-1993 African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.) 4790 Interview Conclusion Stop a minute here. Can we stop here? Interview video ends. Oral History Rev. Robert Hughes discusses starting the Alabama Council on Human Relations after beginning his career as a Methodist minister. HANSON: Bob, give your full name and where you are now. HUGHES: Robert Epperson Hughes and I live on Mercer Island. It' ; s part of the suburbs of Seattle. HANSON: And, at the time of this interview, you are now retired? HUGHES: Yes. HANSON: But, prior to that, you were doing some interesting work in Seattle, just a brief statement before we get to the Alabama history. HUGHES: Well, I was working with the Community Relations Service of the U. S. Department of Justice as a mediator. We were involved in the mediation of community based racial issues in Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Alaska. Much of my work was in Alaska. HANSON: So you were trained as a minister, however, and ordained as a Methodist minister? HUGHES: Yes. HANSON: Did you ever have a pulpit? HUGHES: Yes. HANSON: Tell me about that, briefly. HUGHES: Well, that was in Rockford, Alabama, my first assignment and it was for one year. It was intended to be a longer period, but it was from only 1953 to early ' ; 54. And, then, I began working in the area of race relations. HANSON: And, you then came and founded the Alabama Council on Human Relations? HUGHES: No. I didn' ; t found it. This was pre-existing as the Alabama Division of the Southern Regional Council. It was a very small, bi-racial organization. They had been in existence for several years, I don' ; t know just how many. But, it was, the Southern Regional Council was headquartered in Atlanta and had 12 state affiliates scattered across, one in each state. Typically, like the one in Alabama, it was an organization that met once a year. And in the case of Alabama, at Alabama State College, which was the only place that legally, they could meet without interference. HANSON: " ; They" ; meaning Blacks and Whites? HUGHES: Right. And, around 75 members would meet together once a year for the purpose of discussion, speakers that were regarded as authorities in the subject. HANSON: The subject in this case meaning better race relations or desegregation, what was it? HUGHES: Improvement of race relations would probably be the key term for this early period. Say, prior to 1953, in any case. HANSON: When you came to Montgomery, you agreed to come and start the Alabama Council on Human Relations, is that correct? HUGHES: Well, I came, yes. Well, I don' ; t want to say that I started it because my services were requested by the president of that organization. HANSON: Who was? HUGHES: Who was a Methodist minister. HANSON: I see. HUGHES: Rev. Dan Whitset, pastor of First Methodist Church in Sylacauga. As president we had had contact over the years. I had visited the Alabama Division of the Southern Regional Council annual meeting with him, along with my wife, down in Montgomery. And, it was after such contacts as that, that he was instrumental in asking the Bishop of the Methodist church for the North Alabama Conference, of which I was a member, if he would be willing to appoint me to a special appointment outside the structure of the church, to work in this new area that was just being opened up at the Alabama Division of the Southern Regional Council. HANSON: Was there any question within the Methodist church? I mean, because obviously, if this interview goes on, we' ; ll talk about some of the conflict there. But, at that time, did the church have any question about you stepping out and going into race relations, because that was a difficult time for Whites and Blacks? HUGHES: No. I think it would probably have been consistent with a certain attitude of tolerance that may have been prevalent in that particular period of the early 50s, that would have, did not result in overt opposition to it. For example, the Southern Baptist Convention state' ; s senate, I believe it was, in Alabama, in about 1953, ' ; 54, went on the record, if you can believe it at that time, as favoring desegregation. And, just a short time later, that would have been inconceivable. But, anyway the Methodist were far less conservative than the Southern Baptist on most of these issues. Anyway, there was not particular overt opposition to my being assigned to this work because two thirds of the conference, of the North Alabama Conference membership had to vote to approve my appointment, as well as two thirds of the cabinet, the Bishop' ; s Cabinet, and the Bishop himself. HANSON: So you came to Montgomery then, you took the job and you what, sought out people of like mind to, to form an organization? Tell me a little about that history, because it was there that you met King, Dr. Martin Luther King, and you began working together. HUGHES: Yes, well, we were eventually able to get a small office in downtown Montgomery. This was not without problems, however. I will always be indebted to the man, who was in charge of the insurance office next to mine. I told him how I was faced with the dilemma, " ; Where on earth do I start in establishing a state-wide organization of Blacks and Whites in Alabama?" ; He said, " ; Well, the whole idea is to plan your work and work your plan," ; while slapping on my desk. Shook me awake, but it was good advice, because I did just that. I sat down and began to plan how we would work out from Montgomery as a base, and a group of people meeting only once a year, who had hardly knew each other. And, moving out over the state and working through this plan, which eventually was approved at the annual meeting and so on. HANSON: Now, you are in Montgomery and how did you get a nucleus to work with you in Montgomery, before you expanded? I mean, some of the names in the Civil Rights Movement obviously were part of that early Alabama Council on Human Relations. Just talk about that early formation for a moment. HUGHES: Well, one of the first acts was to form what we called districts. That plan divided the state into districts, one of which was the Montgomery district. And, then, within that context, we were able to pull together, within Montgomery, I began to make contacts with everybody who I thought might be interested in this kind of an organization. And, I say " ; this kind" ; because it was very general. There was no strict set of objectives or goals or statement of purpose other than equal opportunity for all people in Alabama. That was the general umbrella under which this entire movement went forward. Movement, that' ; s overstating it, but our efforts were under this general umbrella. Making contacts for myself, it would be a logical entry I had was with white clergy. And, also Black clergy were already, to a certain extent, involved in this kind of dialogue and, then, also Black and White college professors. That was sort of the nucleus of that Montgomery group. And, it was in this connection that I met Martin Luther King, who also was just starting out his ministry. He had just been called to Dexter Avenue Baptist Church. It was more or less to recruit him. Well, really to establish contact with a fellow minister first, and, then, that later evolved into asking him if he and Coretta would be interested in participating in this little organization. That we would be meeting at Alabama State College for a short period. They were immediately very responsive. That' ; s along with Ralph Abernathy, Ed Nixon, NAACP President and an assortment of White persons, largely professional, a couple of state government employees and so on. We convened together. I was the convener actually of the meeting. And, trying to immediately get myself out of the position of convener, into the hands of local leadership. And, I was involved in trying to get a listing of officers to take over that leadership at a very early stage. And, among the persons that I called on to, on behalf of a nominating committee, I went to Martin Luther King and asked him that, " ; We needed a vice president of the organization and would you be interested?" ; And, we nominated him. After all, the community like this was new in town. It would be a way of becoming known in the civil rights area, and we think, you know, that this is a good opportunity for both of us. He graciously accepted the invitation and was elected vice chairman, I guess it was, not president, of the Montgomery Council on Human Relations when it was initially formed. HANSON: Who was the president? HUGHES: I' ; m not sure who the first president was. HANSON: Was it a white or a Black? HUGHES: It was a White person. Bob Gretz who was a White, Lutheran minister working in a Black Lutheran church on the west side, a missionary type from Ohio. He was, I believe, the second chairperson. I' ; m not certain who the first one was. It will come to me perhaps. HANSON: So the nucleus of that were people that later went on, of course, and along with you made history in the Civil Rights Movement. But in the beginning it was amicable, the churches were sort of behind you. There was an effort, I' ; m assuming this, Bob, there was an effort to have a dialog between White and Black. It wasn' ; t an action group, per se, was it? HUGHES: Not necessarily, no. I think that statement of purpose was to achieve equal opportunity for all people of Alabama through education and study, which is a fairly low key, non activist statement. HANSON: Still, you had as part, you said, of that early formation of the Montgomery group of the Alabama Council on Human Relations, you had people like Nixon and you had people, of course, like Abernathy and King, as well as several Whites, and the NAACP, which at this time was filing suit with the Supreme Court, was it not? HUGHES: Well, yes. Well, Mrs. Rosa Parks was also a member of the Council, a very faithful member ; came to all the meetings, bringing her elderly mother with her, just the two of them. But, this was before the arrest of Mrs. Parks and, of course, the bus boycott began. But, we had just formed, a short time before that historical event occurred. HANSON: So, then, you had formed in ' ; 52 or ' ; 53? HUGHES: No. September of 1954 was when I was brought there. HANSON: So it was right on top of the Supreme Court decision practically. HUGHES: The boycott, the bus protest as we called it in that time, to avoid, for legal purposes, that was a year long event that culminated in the final decision of the Supreme Court. HANSON: Right. Yes. I guess what I was talking about was the Brown v. The Board of Education, which was... HUGHES: That had occurred just prior to the bus boycott. HANSON: And, I want to put this in context. Because here you were forming a group that is doing a dialogue between Blacks and Whites for the purpose of equal opportunity. Yet at that time, the Supreme Court decision desegregating schools had just come down. When did the hate begin? When did the fear begin, if you can put that in some kind of context for me? Fears for Whites, fears for Blacks, did it follow that Supreme Court decision? I' ; m talking now about Brown v. Board of Education. HUGHES: The Supreme Court decision had occurred in 1953, the initial decision in May. I was still at Rockford, Alabama if you' ; re interested in my own experiences at this point. HANSON: I am. I want the context of how this happened. HUGHES: I was assigned to Rockford, a small county seat town of 300 population, four point circuit in the Methodist church. Anyway, on the day that this occurred, the Supreme Court decision came down, I called the Baptist preacher in town. It was really just the two of us, we were the only religious leadership in this little town of Rockford. And said, " ; Meet me down at the little cafe on the main intersection. I' ; d like to talk to you about what might be coming down, and who knows what might happen in the wake of a Supreme Court decision like this." ; There would certainly be no challenge to the White position of segregation or anything like that in the town of Rockford. But, it is a matter of, in the event, if anything should occur, maybe as the religious leadership, we have a responsibility, as vague as that. Anyway, he was willing to talk about it and from that very beginning, that night, that hot, spring evening, as I remember. He didn' ; t know what to make of me asking him to meet for this kind of general kind of purpose. But, shortly after that I attended the district conference of the Methodist church, Sylacauga district, not the, the Alexander City district conference where ministers only meet once a month. And, at that meeting I brought up to this group of White Methodists ministers meeting at the Alexander City, in the Methodist church, there' ; s a group, I would guess around 20-25 clergymen. I was the youngest and newest being assigned in that district. And, I proposed to the group, I stood up and made my first statement to them, really, but, said, " ; With the Supreme Court decision, having come down, last week or last month perhaps, I don' ; t recall, it would be timely if all of us began to think in terms of what kind of responsibility we as local clergyman had as we look at the changes that were going to be taking place. I think that the cities are going to be a lot of turmoil and maybe violence, we don' ; t know. But, I would suggest that each one of us should take the responsibility of us identifying and contacting Black leadership in our communities and meet with them for the purpose of establishing communication with each other and try to work out understandings about how problems would be addressed, jointly." ; And, I sat down. HANSON: What kind of response? HUGHES: One by one. " ; Well, we all know Bobby Hughes, his father and his family are strong Methodists from up in Gadsden and he has a brother who' ; s a minister in the conference and we think a lot of him and we are looking forward to good things from Bobby as the years go by. We appreciate his thoughts. Thank you Bobby. One after the other, virtually all the ministers in some fashion said substantially that. HANSON: Sit down and be quiet, Bobby. HUGHES: Sit down and be quiet and don' ; t bother us. And, in effect, left with nothing. HANSON: In other words, don' ; t shake the boat? HUGHES: I think I learned something...I began, for the first time, to learn some things about what to expect in terms of challenging or trying to solicit change. HANSON: Address that. I was going to go back to your history. But address that, what did you learn at that incidence, about challenging change? HUGHES: Well, in long term, there was no real challenge to them except an abstract idea that was inconceivable in their minds, that problems were going to arise in all of our communities over this issue. That was not conceivable at that time. HANSON: But what did you learn personally, that you had to challenge the status quo? HUGHES: Well, that was certainly part of it. But, there had, I think that we were so far from receiving a challenge. All of the desegregation efforts up to that time had been in other places, distance places and the locusts was more like Washington, D.C., where the Supreme Court was sitting making its pronouncements and so on. HANSON: Were you disappointed? I hear you did a lot of this from a Christian perspective. Were you disappointed that you couldn' ; t get these people to sit down, have dialogue? I mean, now we are preceding what happened to you in Montgomery? HUGHES: Well, yes, I was deeply disappointed. But, as I look back on it, I don' ; t know why I should have expected anything else. And, I went back to little Rockford, and began to make such contacts as best I could. HANSON: Were you rejected? Was the beginnings of where people thought you were a little bit strange? HUGHES: Perhaps. Yes. But I don' ; t think it would have, at least questions might have been raised at that point. HANSON: But everybody was too polite and say. Bob, certainly your history... HUGHES: And, other things may have intervened to make me more acceptable otherwise. I was the first young minister that this church had had in many years. Elderly, retired ministers were the only pastors they had and they didn' ; t know what to make of this young fellow with these new ideas and preaching sermons about race relations and a way that they had never heard. HANSON: And they didn' ; t leave the church because of it? HUGHES: No. Not really. HANSON: That' ; s interesting. Let' ; s go back to how your attitudes even arose and, then, we' ; ll zip forward and talk more about what happened when you were here in Birmingham and your involvement in the Klan' ; s opposition to you, and so forth. But the Hughes family founded Gadsden. HUGHES: Well, my great-grandfather and his brother were credited as the founders, yes. HANSON: Your great-grandfather was a slave holder? HUGHES: Yes. HANSON: Fought in the civil war? HUGHES: I think it was, I don' ; t believe he fought in the civil war, but, Joseph, his son, did. And there were other kin folks on my dad' ; s side. Well, both my father and mother' ; s side. HANSON: So it was a very aristocratic, southern background on the Hughes side. You were brought up with the memorabilia, you said, of the civil war. Deal with that a little bit. HUGHES: Well, there were always stories about what, let' ; s see, I guess it was my grandfather, would have been the one who ate rats during the siege of Vicksburg when they were virtually starved in submission there. Various little episodes like that. One of my uncles was injured and returned home and went back into battle. The story of Emma Sampson, this is all, I don' ; t want to go in anymore detail. But, anyway, the heroine of Gadsden, historical heroine was a young woman in her late teens, Emma Sampson who jumped, when General Lee was chasing Straight through North Alabama, not General Lee, Forrest, of course. General Nathan Bedford Forrest was chasing General Straight through North Alabama and General Straight had had the bridge burned across Black Creek that divided Gadsden. And, so Emma Sampson hopped up on the back of General Forrest' ; horse and said, " ; I can show you the way to the fiord." ; And, she took them off in another direction, across the river, the creek, which was swollen, up north of the bridge site, and bullets shot, her dress was ripped with bullets. And, Forrest then proceeded to chase General Straight on up to Rome and... HANSON: And, that civil war battle is talked about to this day. Was Emma Sampson related... HUGHES: There' ; s a big statute in the middle of town now to her in Sampson. HANSON: Is she any relation to you? HUGHES: Oh, no. HANSON: So you grew up with those stories in your family. HUGHES: The civil war stories (inaudible) HANSON: So you took a great pride in that sort of southernness as you were growing up? That sort of White... HUGHES: That was a side, certainly how pride was developed, family pride. HANSON: In this. But, that was the aristocratic Hughes side that went towards the development of Gadsden and you felt very strong. And, your father was a practicing physician in the town, correct? HUGHES: Yes. HANSON: On your mother' ; s side, she came from Ensley and hers was not the aristocratic background, but instead they were laborers. Tell me a little about that. HUGHES: Well, my grandfather, Epperson, lived on, I believe, 19th Street in Ensley near Tuxedo Junction, as I recall. But, he was a brick mason who built, was involved in laying brick for the first blast furnace at TCI, Tennessee Coal and Iron. And his sons, or step-sons were all involved in laboring situations and, then, organized labor, a little bit later. I know one of them, Leslie Case, was a step-son, but Leslie was one of the officers of United Steel Workers of America. HANSON: So, your mother was the first person you said, first woman to graduate from Ensley High School? HUGHES: Yes. In the class that included women, as I understood it. HANSON: And she went on and was Phi Beta Kappa at the University of Alabama? HUGHES: Right. In the first class with women from the University of Alabama. HANSON: That' ; s fascinating. So, in your growing up, you had these two, if I could dare say this, two trains of thought, I guess, coming into helping forming what Bobby Hughes ended up being. Deal with that a little bit. I mean, here you were brought up with a sense of pride as a son of the Confederacy with a good heritage there, and yet, at the same time, there was this kind of humanism that you saw in your mother' ; s side. Not to say the other wasn' ; t necessarily human. Talk about those two. You said, your mother was a mitigating circumstance and helped you. HUGHES: Well, I' ; ve said my father was a person very deeply oriented in service as a country physician. So there was that humanity, of course, his practice involved treatment of Blacks and Whites. But, the social values, let' ; s say, of a ; there' ; s never any sense of challenging or questioning segregation or racial practices that I can remember in my early childhood. I think that I would say that the values that my mother represented, sensitivity to and a sense of equality among people, without specific application necessarily to race, just acceptance of people on an individual basis and a warmth there that I seemed to feel that that probably shaped my own outlook to applied it specifically, eventually. HANSON: You went to the University of Alabama and did undergraduate work, didn' ; t you? HUGHES: Yes. HANSON: Were you active in the Methodist student organization, these kind of things? You came from a very religious family. A practicing religious family and that colored your views, is that correct? HUGHES: Yes. Again, my, I always heard the story of my great grand-father giving the land that the First Methodist Church in Gadsden is built on. As a founder of the city he had large tracts of land that he allocated for different purposes. So, anyway, yes, we were strongly involved in serving the Methodist church. HANSON: And, then when you went to Alabama is that where you made the decision to go into the ministry? HUGHES: No. HANSON: Deal with that a little bit, Bob. Just to get some of that history. HUGHES: Actually I went to the University of Alabama during the war. I entered in 1945 while the war in the Pacific was still going on, but throughout high school I was aiming at working at a military career, reflecting the spirit of those times. And, I actually had an alternate appointment to West Point and was looking to, preparing to go to West Point as a military officer. But, then, when I got into the University of Alabama and peace came, I began, and the United Nations began to form and so on, I made a change over toward international relations and international diplomacy was much more attractive than a military career. So I majored in political science and took, I think, a couple of quarters of graduate study in political science. I experienced some inner turmoil, some spiritual turmoil, and so... HANSON: Explain that. Deal with that a little bit. HUGHES: Well, I never felt that this, I mean there always seemed to be a question that grew over a period of time. By the time I was in graduate school, maybe some other things I needed to be doing, what they were, I didn' ; t have any clear focus. Anyway, to make a long story short, on a retreat with Dr. E. Stanley Jones up in North Carolina I made the decision... HANSON: Who, let' ; s digress here, was a very famous Methodist missionary in Africa? HUGHES: In India. Yes. And I read devotional books that were very popular in that time, abundant living, and so on. But, anyway, it was under, I guess, the precipitating influence or the culminating influence of Dr. E. Stanley Jones, I made this decision and decided to enter the ministry and Dr. Jones arranged for me, a month later, to enter seminary at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. There was a Methodist seminary there, or was for the next three years. HANSON: After you graduated from Emory, you also then, I believe went on a ship, as I recall. Was that right after you graduated from Emory? HUGHES: Yes. Well, I was, I felt... HANSON: This, it' ; s an interesting story and this is why I think for the history, to know the Bob Hughes that took a, such an active role in all of the things that happened in those early days in Alabama' ; s civil rights history. We need to know some of that that precipitated Bob. It' ; s part of the profile of you, so if you don' ; t mind, deal with that, working on a ship. HUGHES: Well, when I finished seminary I was faced with, okay, now, it' ; s time to enter the ministry, the pastorate and I felt like I needed laboring experience. I needed to broaden my horizons, and so on. So I just decided to take a year and dedicate it to doing, to achieving just that. And, it was a whole series of things, much more than a ship. But, I hitchhiked from Gadsden up to Chicago and spent a week or more on skid row, living in flop houses and so on. And, then, out to, hitchhiked to Hibbing, Minnesota and pulled cable in iron ore pits. And, from there, a week of harvest work in Alberta near Edmonton and, then, hitchhiked back to New York City and tried to get a job on a trans-steamer. Would work-a-way, anywhere abroad. I was told that the work-a-ways went out with World War II. That' ; s a thing of the past. They don' ; t have that any more. But I decided that I' ; m the exception to that general rule and knocked on, living at the Sloan House YMCA in Manhattan. Over a course of six weeks or so, I guess, with over 90 shipping offices and ships tied up at anchor and at the docks in New York City and Brooklyn and so on, before I found that one exception and actually found a job where they' ; d pay me. It was a Greek owned trans-steamer under the Panamanian flag. So, it was an old liberty ship, but was involved in trade down into the Caribbean area. We went to Bermuda and, then Trinidad. I was a messman. I washed dishes and served the crew of about 30 people. I found there was mixture of stateless persons, some, a couple from eastern Europe had been, they had no identification and Latin Americans and others. But anyway, working in that way, under horrible conditions, I thought and eventually back through the Caribbean back into Baton Rouge and, then to Baltimore and New York City. HANSON: Did you try to organize the crews or how did that work? HUGHES: Yes. When I got back to New York City I was so disgusted with the conditions on the ship, living conditions and working conditions and some of the men were virtually tied to the ship because they couldn' ; t, they were not released from the ship. Anyway, I went to the Panamanian Seamans Union and offered my services and became an organizer for the Panamanian Seamans Union in New York Harbor. And, in that way, I went on all the Panamanian flag ships, as many as I could get to meet with the crewmen and to sign them up as members of the union. And, my eyes were really opened to the conditions. I didn' ; t know how well off I was on the ship that I was on, but when I got on to this, the people, who were, it was literally a form of indentured servitude I guess you' ; d call it. HANSON: Shades of slavery. HUGHES: Yes. Seamen, say recruited in Greece or Italy or other places in Europe. The ship then would enter the American market, would sailing between American ports and say Latin American ports, for example. And, when they would sign on the captain would ask for the seaman' ; s papers and their passport and put them in his safe for safekeeping. And, they would go back to Europe only maybe once a year, and he would return those papers and so on, only when he was ready to release the crew. And, if they jumped ship in Maricado or Venezuela or some place like this, they were stranded. In fact, there was a man on our ship did just that and immigration in Venezuela picked him up and flew him to Lygyra where they put him back on our ship. Anyway, these were the conditions that I was concerned about when I got back. HANSON: And, so, how long did you stay with that? HUGHES: Oh, it was several months. I also went to the State Department of Shipping Board, the Coast Guard, International Labor Organization of the United Nations and also the newspapers trying to focus attention on what I had thought I had just stumbled across. But, you see, a lot of American money was involved in these runaway fleets as they were termed. I couldn' ; t gain any interest. HANSON: And you couldn' ; t fight the establishment could you? It was too entrenched. HUGHES: I did what I could but nobody seemed to be particularly interested. HANSON: So you came back then from that? Came back to Alabama? HUGHES: No. Well, after that I began working at the United Nations as a guard in the security section in one of the first early general assembly sessions. And, that was oh, for a couple of months. And, then, after that, I had another job on a work away to a Norwegian flag ship to North Morocco and to Italy and left the ship by prearrangement and hitchhiked up to Geneva, Switzerland for a World Council of Churches Ecumenical Student Conference or course in ecumenical theology. And then, after hitchhiking around Europe and England, I then got a work away on an American flag ship back to New York and hitchhiked back to Alabama and began, went to my first Methodist conference and joined the North Alabama Conference, at that point to receive my appointment to Rockford. HANSON: It' ; s a wonderful history because it says, if I can leap with this, because I want to take you back to Montgomery. It says that you came with a very broad background. More than what the average minister would have to bring to a parish. So that by the time you got to Montgomery and you were ready to form the Alabama Chapter of the Alabama Council of Human Relations with the board that you' ; re setting up and the presidency, vice presidency and chairmen and so forth, you brought to it an understanding of human nature, maybe, can I assume that and a dedication to bring people together? Is that part of the motivation, do you think? HUGHES: Well, the beginnings of understanding I guess. I had done some student organizing around social issues in seminary, racial issues in fact. So it didn' ; t all come out of that one year. HANSON: What turned the tide for Bob Hughes to see this injustice and want to go and take action? You said you even did it in the seminary. Is there one single event or was it just an ongoing? HUGHES: It was a gradual evolution I would think. HANSON: Let' ; s go back to Montgomery, the... HUGHES: Interspersed with opportunities that could have come to anybody. HANSON: But not everybody did it in the same way. Not everybody would take advantage of it in the same way or learn from it in the same way. That' ; s an editorial opinion that I' ; m not allowed to put on it. But, going back to Montgomery, you now have, a nucleus for the Montgomery Chapter, is that correct? And you consistently meet in Montgomery with your group in Montgomery, how often. HUGHES: Well, it was usually once a month. But, at the same time though I was doing the same sort of thing in Birmingham, Tuscaloosa, Tri-Cities, Mobile, Tuskegee and Selma, Dothan. These were part of the districts that we set up and what I did in Montgomery first was, soon as we got started, got a group together, then I was working in these other districts as well to do something of the same. HANSON: To work your plan, what was the statement again? HUGHES: Plan your work and work your plan. HANSON: You are working your plan. Your sequence here. What happened to the Alabama Chapter once the bus protest or boycott started? Did it disintegrate? HUGHES: No, sir. HANSON: Did it become stronger? Was it supportive? Talk a little bit about that. HUGHES: Well... HANSON: Did King stay active? Did Abernathy stay active? Nixon? HUGHES: I know that Dr. King and Mrs. King remained active as they could. But Dr. King soon was so overwhelmed with leadership and travelling throughout the entire country with tremendous demand. HANSON: During the boycott? HUGHES: Yes, from that point forward. But, they maintained their membership as more than just regular members, they were sustaining members as I remember which was a generous level of membership. And, the council itself, I don' ; t recall specifically people dropping out of it, because of White members. If anything, it grew somewhat in that initial period of the bus protest. I think many of us felt that something big is taking place here. This is Black and White. And we were looking for ways in which to assist and become, to contribute to the success of something that' ; s very significant and important to start. I don' ; t recall Whites questioning what was going on. I think it was all very understandable. One of the things I try to do is to interpret what was going on through our newsletter throughout the state and news media that somehow got my name. And, I was under tremendous pressure of having to give interviews and so on at a time when I needed to be doing other things. But, there was an aspect of our work that involved trying to interpret and educate the larger community about the significance of what was going on, especially that which was not being published. HANSON: For example, " ; that which was not being published" ; ? HUGHES: Well, during the boycott itself, that was pretty well publicized, but, you have to understand, we were talking earlier about how this kind of benign attitude toward race on the part of the White community seemed to permeate most of the state. But, by 1956, or ' ; 55 and with the beginning of the bus boycott closely followed by the Autherine Lucy riots at the University of Alabama and perhaps preceded a short time earlier by the Little Rock school crisis, all of these combined in Alabama to produce a state of racial tension. And many things were happening in places like Tuskegee, for example that weren' ; t being publicized and this is one of the things that I was intent on getting out. HANSON: Did the opposition to you personally start about that time? Or, am I being unfair in saying that? I mean, there was a turning point ; the benignness that you spoke of, ceased to exist. And there seemed to be a coalescing of a lot of Whites within the church and outside the church against people who took an active point of view. HUGHES: Well, the White Citizens Councils were formed, especially in Alabama. Senator Hugo Heart and so on were common in this. But this spread like wild fire throughout the lower two-thirds of the state. The northern third wasn' ; t impacted nearly as much as the rest of the state. But from Birmingham and north, there was much less in the way of this kind of community-based organization of the White Citizens Council many of which later evolved into Ku Klux Klan revival. But, initially, it went through that kind of an evolution. I' ; m sorry, I may have lost your question. HANSON: No. No. It was a good delineation of the history of that time. Was there pressure against you personally at that time? I mean you were trying to inform through your newsletter of the things that were not in the general newspaper. You were giving interviews. What about the personal hate directed towards you? Did you have any pressure from the church? HUGHES: Well, divide it up in this way. From ' ; 54 to ' ; 56, when we were in Montgomery, I don' ; t think we were particularly involved much in the way of focusing on efforts against me personally. It was more directed towards the Montgomery Improvement Association, of course. That would be the harassing kind of phone call and that sort of thing. But, toward the end of ' ; 56 one of the things that I did first off when I went to Montgomery was, I wanted to be able to rent an office where there would be no question if I wanted a Black secretary, for example, it would be no problems. And, whenever I raised that and I didn' ; t get any space. But, I did get one space. And, actually, we never got to the point of hiring a Black secretary, but, because of our general work, we were not able to renew our lease in the office space that we had in Montgomery. So, we faced the question. Do we go to another location here in Montgomery, or elsewhere? And, my feeling was that Birmingham, which had begun to experience the dynamitings, the bombings, there was a whole series at that point, something like 23 unsolved bombings according to Emory Jackson of the Birmingham World, who catalogued all these. But, we felt that there were much more serious tension building and problems that were coming to the surface in the Birmingham area than in Montgomery. Montgomery was in good hands, but Birmingham was much more wide open. And, therefore, we ought to put the office in Birmingham to be closer to this scene. So, in 1956, we did move the office up here. And, very soon after we got into establishing ourselves here in Birmingham that these troubles began to be felt. But there was still a couple of years even after that before it became intense. HANSON: Let' ; s talk about the early formation of the Birmingham group. You got an office here. Did you have the same difficulty getting an office? Could you get a Black secretary? HUGHES: No. I don' ; t recall asking that question again. There was no law that would be of any help to us and it just repeatedly had the doors slammed in our face. I got in the Comer Building, which at that time we could afford a very small space there. We were trying to get some kind of image of acceptability in the White community and buy a location that would lend some credibility or acceptability. HANSON: Why was it so important to have the credibility with the White community? HUGHES: Well, we were beginning to be looked upon as increasingly far to the left, communist, red, pinkos. These labels were beginning to evolve to be associated with any White who had shown any interest in the Civil Rights Movement. HANSON: Then where did you get your nucleus of White support? You had the Black support. HUGHES: Well, we really began with whatever membership we had in a given community in that initial role of the state organization. We established contact with them and convened a meeting of those. And, then, by word of mouth, so and so should be involved and it would evolve out from a word of mouth kind of growth until we had a meeting that we would convene of say, 30 or 40 people. And, after two or three such meetings, an election of officers. HANSON: And, again, the goal was the same? To have education, to bring about a communication and justice and so forth, but not an activist group? HUGHES: Well, I didn' ; t mean to imply earlier that the lack of activism permeated the entire organization. For example, during the Montgomery bus boycott, the Alabama Council sponsored meetings for Blacks and Whites where role plays were conducted in churches, Black churches. But, where a set up of a simulation of a bus with seats and try to help prepare the community as a whole for the inevitable desegregation of the bus system. The end of the boycott, return to the buses, how shall we return and so on. So, it was involved in that kind of educational process which is a little more activist oriented I would think than some of the other chapters which would like to have studied the problem to death. HANSON: When you came to Birmingham, you had, if I can assume this, two primary purposes aside from its mission for education and race tolerance and so forth and desegregation, I' ; m assuming. But you had to get members and you had to get funds, is that correct? HUGHES: Yes. HANSON: And in getting members and in getting funds is where I' ; m going to lead you as you obviously know from the famous Harrison Salisbury release of the names and all of that history. Lead me to that, can you Bob, a little bit. Am I being vague in my question, here? In other words, you had to reach out and get a membership list, is that correct? In Birmingham? HUGHES: Yes. We built a mailing list, I' ; d guess you' ; d say. A membership list. And, as the Birmingham Council on Human Relations evolved into existence, of which, the Hanson family was a part. HANSON: And, as that came about, you also collected funds, did you not, and had meetings and so forth. When did you begin to contact and why did you begin to contact the national press corps? Talk a little bit about that and how you used them to put a window on this city a little bit. HUGHES: I don' ; t remember specifically how I happened to get in contact with, say, the New York Times. As best I remember contact was made by Harrison Salisbury directly to me, not the reverse. I did not initiate the contact, I don' ; t think. But I' ; d been in touch with Peter Keyes of the New York Times during the Autherine Lucy riots. And, so, it wasn' ; t so unusual for another reporter for the New York Times to seek me out. I had been in touch in various situations throughout the state with the outside media. So, anyway, he asked me for interviews, which I gave him and I gave him as much as I could. Especially some of the untold stories of atrocities that had been occurring in Birmingham. The national public opinion was completely unaware of this. HANSON: And so you were quoted very often. Is that when they began to intensify their attacks against you? " ; They" ; meaning the Klan, " ; They," ; meaning the White Citizens Council, all of this. For example, the (inaudible) that' ; s sitting now in the Institute, the cross that was burned on your lawn by the Klan. I mean, did that all fall in that period of time? HUGHES: Well, that had occurred a little bit earlier and some of the other things that had occurred, say, in the community, where we lived in Cahaba Heights. HANSON: Talk about that a little bit if you can? HUGHES: I' ; m trying to pick up a year. But, it was like ' ; 58 or ' ; 59, somewhere in that period. But, we began to feel, well, the Methodists ministers in the layman' ; s association which was a White Citizens Council movement, masked under Methodist logo, you might say. But, that movement seemed among other things, took over the control of the lay structure of the United Methodist Church in both the North Alabama Conference and the Alabama Conference. And they took it upon themselves to target myself and my appointment by the North Alabama Conference to this work. In their publications, I believe it was called Truth, I could be wrong. But it seems like that was the name. That was the name of one of the associated publications or maybe that was theirs, I forget. But, they called for my removal from the appointment and, secondly demanded that no pension rights would be, that the church would not pay any pension rights for Robert Hughes. But the main thing was to get rid of him. HANSON: So in other words they were building up pressure both financially and emotionally against you at this time? HUGHES: Yes. And, reflected in our community by one Sunday morning, Dottie and I, my wife, when I came out of the Methodist church, I had been asked to preach there on a number of occasions and there was no problem there. But, I guess others on the fringe of the church, or in the community in any case, began to be aware of what we were doing and the kind of work that we were involved in and/or being concerned about it. But, I came out of church one Sunday morning and upon a member looking out from the steps of the church over the parking lot on every windshield of each car was a sheet of paper and I said, " ; I know exactly what this is." ; And, it was the, I think it was a Klan piece of literature saying that Robert Hughes working day and night for integration has got to be chased off, or something like this (inaudible) or something like this. That was the introduction, I think, to really intensifying opposition to me on a personal basis in the local community. HANSON: So from that hate kind of literature, larger things grew? HUGHES: Threatening phone calls associated with that. And, then, this is in a period when the Klan was very active, especially in the Birmingham area. But it was throughout most, two- thirds of the state, in any case, from Gadsden south. Every Saturday night the Klan would ride. They would go to places in addition to assaults on Black families and these more clandestine kinds of operations, they had a more public face in which they would ride in a calvacade and burn a cross and draw attention to someone. Anyway, they had been doing this every Saturday night in the Birmingham area for a long, extended period of time, for the past six months or more, I guess. But, Dottie and I were in the kitchen getting the children down to bed on one Saturday night and heard the horns blowing out in front of the house. We went to the front door, or I went to the window and looked out the front window, and there was a line of cars sitting with their headlights on led by a pick-up truck that had stopped in front of the house. In the back of the truck was a lighted, a cross that was lit with neon lights. And, the cars just went out of sight over the hill. There were so many of them that when I looked out the window, I took in this scene, and at that point, there was various figures in white robes were congregated, coming into the yard and sitting up. I remember clearly hearing this man through the window, " ; Put it there," ; pointing to the ground about three feet in from the curb. And, they set up a large cross and I gather with burlap wrap. Anyway, I called back to Dottie, " ; The Klan is here." ; And, maybe the children had just been put to bed, I believe that was the case. But anyway I called back to Dottie and we both went to the front door. And, one of the purposes of course, is to instill fear ; attract attention and instill fear on the parts of anybody that they may be targeting. And, I was intent that, you know, they would not be seen to succeed in that case with us. And as we came to the door, the lead truck, the man had got back into the pick-up truck and began to drive off and the cavalcade began to proceed by, with robed figures inside. Two and three people per car. HANSON: Did they wear hoods? HUGHES: Some were hooded, some were not. Some were older, some were children with their own little Klan outfits. And, as they came on by, they began to blow their horns and so on and I went out and connected the hose up and I figured, well, if I put the fire out, the rest of the Klan, these other people who are coming won' ; t know where it is. Where the target is. And, they' ; ll just keep on going. They won' ; t know where I was. So I started spraying water on the hose thing there at the side of the street, and, then, I realized, and Dottie came out and she' ; s standing there with me, and we glaring at this cross and we were spraying water on the (inaudible). And I suddenly realized if we put the fire out, they won' ; t realize that we' ; re defying them so I sprayed some water on it and, then, sprayed it over on the cars as they came by. I was alternating like this. It was fun. HANSON: Fun, were you never afraid? Didn' ; t you really fear for your life? I mean, what is the difference between them, let' ; s say, and the militia today that wouldn' ; t take a gun and shoot you? I mean did that never cross your mind?HUGHES: I didn' ; t do this every Saturday night, you understand. Next time, if the cars would have come back appropriately armed. I' ; m sure they were armed that night, but I surprised them that night. HANSON: Did you try to notify the press of what had happened to you? HUGHES: I called the sheriff' ; s office that night. HANSON: And what was the response of the sheriff' ; s office? Who was sheriff at that time, do you remember? HUGHES: Holt McDowell' ; s name comes to mind. I don' ; t know if that was earlier or that was the same time. I think the next day the sheriff came out. Nobody came that night. But, just to tie up that evening though, the cars went on out. And, then, one by one neighbors who had been summoned out with horns and everything that was going on, began to come out of the houses and come up there and see what this was all about. It was kind of a circus. They were basically, I' ; d say, sympathetic. You know, our friends who had been victimized by those Klan types, it would be that kind of a personal relationship that I think gave them courage to come up to check on things. And, one of the little neighborhood boys came up with his parents from a couple of houses down the street. As we were all standing there around the big, black, smoking cross, lying on the ground, steaming, still steaming, fire out of course, this little boy, four years old or something like that was holding on to his momma' ; s skirts, said, " ; Is Jesus on that cross?" ; HANSON: What a statement. HUGHES: And I told him, " ; In a way, he was." ; But anyway that was the evening. I called Clark Stallworth at the Post Herald and he was the only, really sympathetic print journalist that I knew. I told Clark that you might be interested in this type of cross burning that was conducting out here tonight by a large group of Klan. Well, I had estimated like 100 or more at least, because I counted over 50 cars and, then stopped. And they each had 2 to 3 or 4 people in them. Anyway, I told Clark what had happened and I told him a little bit about my wife' ; s background, which you haven' ; t asked me about. HANSON: No. I think we' ; ll do that too, in a minute. HUGHES: But, anyway, the next day, on the front page of the Post Herald was about a 2 or 3 paragraph articles, small on the front page, stating that a cross had been burned at the home of Rev. Robert Hughes of Cahaba Heights last night by a large group of Klansman. In the next paragraph, Mrs. Hughes, the wife of Rev. Hughes, happens to be the great- great grandniece of General Nathan Bedford Forrest who founded the Klu Klux Klan. HANSON: And they put that in the story? HUGHES: Clark put it on the front page of the Post Herald. HANSON: Did that generate any national requests for anyone? Did the Klan come back again after that? You had several other harassments, of course? But, I mean, of that magnitude? HUGHES: No. The cross burning, there was only one cross burning. And that same group had earlier gone up and burned a cross in front of the Methodist church which was about three blocks away from where we lived. There was nobody at the church at that hour. And they came on to our place. HANSON: But it was an act of intimidation always. I mean... HUGHES: Oh, yes. Cross burnings, yes. HANSON: But there was other intimidation though. I mean... HUGHES: There were periods in which the phone would ring, almost constantly, at all hours of the night. We had to turn the phone off. Of course, that cut off communication with others. And we had to turn it back on at some times, but there would be, obviously, I think there was a night watchman at some place here in Birmingham that, in the middle of the night, he would sit up and ring our number. And as soon as I turn the phone off saying, " ; Sorry, I can' ; t talk to you tonight." ; I would turn it off and the next morning turn it back on at 7:00 or so, and he' ; d still be there. HANSON: What was the response of the Bishop and the hierarchy of the Methodist church? And the reason I' ; m getting to this, Bob, is because this is going to lead us back to the Salisbury articles and what happened to you when you were put in jail in Bessemer. What was the response of the bishopry at that time? HUGHES: Nothing. Well, let me put it this way. The bishop that made the initial appointment to the Alabama Council had retired in about ' ; 55 or ' ; 56, maybe, at the latest, Bishop Purcell. And he was succeeded, I guess, by Bishop Hodge. And Bishop Hodge was my bishop from about 1955 or ' ; 56 on. He went along with what had been done earlier. That is, in making the appointment by around ' ; 58 when the Citizens Councils, which I said, had infiltrated the Methodist lay structure and was exerting strong influence through that structure statewide, questions were raised about whether or not this work should continue. By 1958 they said, well, you shouldn' ; t be doing this kind of work. We shouldn' ; t be sponsoring this. You ought to be in the pastorate. There was a great need for more pastors in the conference, and so on. And, that went on for, I guess to about 1958, but I refused. I just said, " ; I' ; m sorry, I disagree. I have to continue this work." ; In ' ; 59 it came back again. The church it self was going through a lot of turmoil over the existence of the central jurisdiction. Efforts to abolish the central jurisdiction, which was the segregated arm of the Methodist church in the south, and many of us were concerned that this needed to be abolished in the southern Methodist church. The Methodist church in the south was trying to oppose any change in the structure in the Methodist church. They rarely ever gave it a racial tilt. So that helped to inflame some feeling against myself. HANSON: Let' ; s stop right there. It culminated obviously in what happened later on, can I assume that? But let' ; s go back to Harrison Salisbury. Now, you have been in contact with the national press because you have given interviews and so forth. Salsberry came to town and the famous New York Times article, I believe it was in the fall of ' ; 59 was the famous line... HUGHES: (inaudible) HANSON: Yes. Fear stalks the streets of Birmingham. He called it America' ; s most segregated city, more segregated than Johannesburg. I mean it was quite an article, an inflammatory article. And underneath all of this, Bob Hughes was suspected of supplying Harrison Salisbury with a lot of the information. Is that true, number one? And, number two, how did you end up in jail in Bessemer through all of that? HUGHES: Well, the articles were published. I was interviewed extensively and the articles were published for two days running, I believe it was. One article on Birmingham and one article on the state as a whole, I believe. And, they were published in the New York Times, and the Birmingham News to its credit, decided that the people of Alabama needed to be told, informed about what they, the impersonal north, are saying about us. And so they published the same articles in their entirety, I believe, in the Birmingham News. And, the reaction was, from the White community, it was of course, immediately outraged and defensive. Defensive is the understatement of the year. Outraged and who told them? What are his sources? It' ; s a lie. Who did he get all this from? Such things as the assault on the Miles College students and Kelly Ingram Park holding a prayer vigil on their knees, arrested, prayer vigil broken up. And, the mother and the names published. And, one mother was assaulted by a Klan group in her home in Fairfield or Bessemer, I forget. Leg or legs broken or, severely injured. She was beaten with pipes. So, any way, that kind of story had never been published locally and the people in Birmingham were, for the first time, some of them were aroused by this. But, most seemed to be, most of the articulated responses were of outrage. And, the Bessemer cut-off, grand division, I guess. HANSON: Grand jury, now. HUGHES: Well, the grand jury of Bessemer county, for Jefferson County in the Bessemer cut-off was directed by the judge to investigate the articles, the source of the articles. And, among other things that were done by the grand jury or the investigators was to subpoena the records of the Tutwiler Hotel where Harrison Salisbury had stayed. And, at that time, you know they kept a list of all telephone calls made from the room, and they found my office number and my home number scattered throughout his records. And, as a result, the grand jury issued a subpoena and the next thing I knew, a deputy sheriff had come by my office there in the Comer Building and, handed me a subpoena. HANSON: Stop a minute here. Can we stop here? This material is property of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. video This material is available for educational and research purposes only. Permission for commercial use will not be granted. For publication information, please contact archives
bcri.org. 0 http://bcriohp.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=RHughes1995.xml RHughes1995.xml
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Rev. Robert Hughes
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Rev. Robert Hughes discusses starting the Alabama Council on Human Relations after beginning his career as a Methodist minister.
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19950623HR
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Montgomery Bus Boycott, Montgomery, Ala., 1955-1956
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1995-06-23
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video
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74eb2ddf6d77368d654514eb2ffd4724
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BCRI Oral History Project Collection
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Interviews collected as part of the general mission of the Oral History Project
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Video
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Oral History
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
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English
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bcriohp
Oral History
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Horace Huntley
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John Rutland
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United Methodist Church (U.S.)
Connor, Theophilus E. "Bull"
Lindberg
Ku Klux Klan (1915- )
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5.4 July 21, 1995 Rev. John Rutland 19950721R 0:37:23 BCRIOHP Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Oral History Project Collection bcriohp BCRI Oral History Project BCRI Oral History Collection Indexer: Emily Reynolds Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham United Methodist Church (U.S.) Connor, Theophilus E. " ; Bull" ; Lindberg Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) John Rutland Horace Huntley Video 1:|9(2)|21(9)|35(14)|49(11)|67(11)|87(15)|102(17)|122(3)|139(8)|159(13)|172(3)|199(4)|217(10)|239(12)|255(7)|266(11)|280(6)|292(6)|310(14)|327(10)|342(6)|368(14)|386(6)|403(4)|415(5)|432(10)|447(14)|473(16)|487(7)|505(7)|523(5)|523(6)|527(15)|542(5)|558(13)|568(14)|579(3) 0 https://youtu.be/034rd-Vh8NQ YouTube video English 25 Interview Begins: Community Response to Civil Rights Movement Activism Rev. Rutland, you described the time leading up to some of the racial confrontation in the City of Birmingham as a lonely time prior to that. A time when you had to say things that were on your conscious. Why did you call it a lonely time? Rev. Rutland describes why he felt he had to take an active role during the Civil Rights Movement. African Americans--Segregation ; Birmingham (Ala.) African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Pentecostal churches--United States--Clergy--Biography ; Race relations--Religious aspects--Christianity 33.516200, -86.813870 17 Birmingham Civil Rights Institute https://www.bcri.org/ BCRI Homepage 164 Church Response to Civil Rights Activism Why were you not told to be quiet or else leave the church? Rev. Rutland describes Methodist leadership's response to his activism, and his congregation's response to his social justice work. Hughes, L. Robert ; Race relations--Religious aspects--Christianity African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) 350 Threats of Violence and Police Protection How did you respond to that? Was your life ever threatened? Rev. Rutland discusses threats against his family (due to his vocal support of the Civil Rights Movement), and shares a story about a time when the Birmingham Police offered protection. Birmingham (Ala.). Department of Public Safety ; Connor, Theophilus E. " ; Bull" ; ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Lindberg, Robert Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Race relations in the United States 504 Freedom Rides: Mother's Day 1961 Let's look a little bit at what happened in 1961, because that turned the tide. By this time Lindberg is out. Bull Conner is in. He is coming to your church every Sunday and where was he that famous Mother's Day when all of the busses... Rev. Rutland describes the Freedom Ride busses that arrived at his church on Mother's Day 1961, and his subsequent interaction with Bull Connor. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Connor, Theophilus E. " ; Bull" ; ; Cross Burnings ; Methodist Church (U.S.). North Alabama Conference ; Race relations--Religious aspects--Christianity ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) ; United States--Race relations--Political aspects African Americans--Civil rights ; Freedom Rides, 1961 759 Reflections on Bull Connor and Alabama Politics I have to admit, I was surprised. I didn't think Mr. Connor would, and I doubt if he meant for it to turn out as bad as it did. I think it's just like letting a snowball start down a hill and just picking up people who were involved, just getting worse than he thought they would. Rev. Rutland reflects on politics and race in Alabama during the 1960s and afterward. Republican Party (Ala.) ; White supremacy movements--United States Connor, Theophilus E. " ; Bull" ; ; United States--Race relations--Political aspects 985 Civil Rights, the Church, and Birmingham So what do you see happened? There came a time of almost peace in Birmingham if you could say that. Rev. Rutland discusses the interconnectedness of race, politics and the church. Alabama Council on Human Relations ; Hughes, L. Robert ; Shores, Arthur D. (Arthur Davis), 1904-1996 Race relations--Religious aspects--Christianity ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) 1232 Family History, Upbringing, and Education Let's go back again to your upbringing if we can, pastor. Rev. Rutland describes growing up in segregated Haleyville, Alabama. Birmingham-Southern College ; Education--Southern States ; Families--United States--History--20th century ; Haleyville (Ala.) African Americans--Segregation ; African Americans--Southern States ; Methodist Church--United States--Clergy--Biography 1317 Early Preaching and Activism in the Church What about when you got your first church? Where was your first church? Rev. Rutland discusses his early days as a minister, when he first began speaking and preaching against racial injustice. African Americans--Employment--Law and legislation ; African Americans--Segregation ; Labor unions--United States--History--20th century ; United Mine Workers of America African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) 1534 Living with Threats of Violence Did you ever fear for your life, for your wife's life, enough to keep you from taking a stand? Rev. Rutland describes the threats of violence that he and his family received as a result of his work supporting desegregation. Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) ; Threats of violence ; White Citizens councils ; White nationalism Civil rights movements--United States 1651 Deciding to Leave the Woodlawn Methodist Church But, (indecipherable name) says in the book -- and the name is something that escapes me now -- that they ran you out of the Woodlawn church, which you're saying is not true. Let's correct it for the record. Rev. Rutland discusses his decision to leave the Woodlawn Church. African Americans--Civil rights--Southern States ; African Americans--Segregation ; White Citizens councils Race relations--Religious aspects--Christianity ; Southern States--Religion ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) 1998 Reflections on Christian Churches and Race Relations So do you think that the Methodist Church or Christian churches are coming around in any way? Rev. Rutland reflects on the impact of Christian religious organizations on racial justice. American Baptist Churches in the U.S.A. ; United Methodist Church (U.S.) Race relations--Religious aspects ; Southern States--Religion 2078 Reflections on Life's Work Looking back on this, I don't look at myself as being anything courageous or more wise or better than other people who were not doing anything. Rev. Rutland reflects on his work and shares a concluding story. African Americans--Civil rights ; Birmingham (Ala.). Police Department ; Ku Klux Klan (1915- ) Birmingham (Ala.) 2216 Interview Conclusion Thank you for letting me do this. The interview is concluded. Birmingham Civil Rights Institute (Birmingham, Ala.) Oral History Rev. John Rutland discusses participating in the movement as Bull Conner's minister, including taking in the Freedom Riders at his church. He and his family faced fierce opposition and threats of violence as a result. HANSON: Rev. Rutland, you, described the time leading up to some of the racial confrontation in the City of Birmingham as a lonely time prior to that. A time when you had to say things that was on your conscious. Why did you call it a lonely time? RUTLAND: Well, of course, when people realized that I was taking the stand that I was taking, even my Bishop and the other leaders of the conference who were afraid, I don' ; t know if you were living in those days, but it was a very difficult thing to stand up for anything that would bring Black and White together, because of the politics and the social ideas of the people in Birmingham were so much opposed to that. And, anyone who would stand and say we need to bring Blacks and Whites together on an equal basis, were in trouble. So, when I would do things and the Bishop would call me in and say, " ; You don' ; t need to do those things, you need to calm down, you' ; re making your people angry." ; Of course, instead of having a bunch of friends around me then, I had people who, at best, were distant and did not give me their comfort. Of course, I had a good wife that stayed with me and comforted me. And, there were always a few, a few lay people and very few ministers. HANSON: Why do you think you were able to do that? I mean what was it that compelled you to do this when other ministers didn' ; t? RUTLAND: My mother. I was brought up to believe that people were people. And, that all people were God' ; s children. And, that every person was just as worthy as every other person. And, when I saw, during my early ministry in places in Pickens County and even in Walker County in some of my smaller churches, when I saw how people were treating Black people and yet, calling themselves, and in every other area of their lives they probably were fine Christian people, well it just kind of stirred something within me and I felt that somebody had to say something and I felt like I was that one to say it. HANSON: Why were you not told to be quiet or else leave the church? Robert Hughes, for example, was. I mean, had to leave the church. RUTLAND: Well, of course, that' ; s a matter of opinion whether Bob had to leave or not. You can face these things and say it' ; s just too tough and I' ; m going to leave, the Bishop saying you got to do this and you got to do that and you don' ; t want to do it, so you leave. I didn' ; t want to leave. And when the Bishop called me in and asked me to be quiet and he said, " ; You don' ; t need to be saying these things." ; One of the funniest things I ever remember is that Bishop Hodge called me in one time and he had some bulletins that I had printed where I had said some pretty straight forward, truthful things about race relations. And, he looked at those bulletins and he said, " ; John, for Goodness sake, say what you want to from the pulpit, ' ; cause you can deny that or say they misunderstood it. But quit putting these things in your bulletin because they' ; re there and you can' ; t change them after they' ; re there." ; And then he said, " ; Why do you do this anyhow?" ; And I said, " ; That isn' ; t the question, Bishop. The question is, why don' ; t you do this? This is what our church says, this is what the New Testament says and we need a leader who' ; ll say that, Bishop. You' ; re the one who needs to be saying what I' ; m saying." ; HANSON: And his response was? RUTLAND: Well, he said, " ; You one day, this makes a Methodist preacher feel real good." ; He says, " ; You know John, you would like to leave Woodlawn, which I don' ; t know where he got that idea. But, you would like to leave Woodlawn and the people would like for you to leave, but where on earth could I find a church that would take you." ; No , that makes you feel good. HANSON: One of the most quoted things by everybody that you said one day was in, I believe in a sermon, when you said, " ; If Jesus were to come back today, he would not be welcomed in the Christian church, he would be more welcomed as a Jew in the temple." ; Elaborate on that. RUTLAND: Well, I just said, you know, preaching in a sermon, I used the fact that if Jesus were to come, he would not come in a big Cadillac. He would not come in a big sports car. He' ; d probably come on a donkey. And if he tried to get in this church, you wouldn' ; t let him in. Especially you wouldn' ; t let him in if you pushed back his beard and saw that the skin under it was Black. And, I said, the Jewish church would receive him but we wouldn' ; t receive him. HANSON: What was the response of the congregation? RUTLAND: Oh, it was terrible. HANSON: What did they do? RUTLAND: Well, they didn' ; t do much except call me. You know, I answered my phones so many times, this was while I was at Woodlawn, that people called me a son of a bitch. I heard that so much until I really thought my name was son of a bitch. HANSON: How did you respond to that? Was your life ever threatened? RUTLAND: Oh, yes. But I never took it seriously. When they burned the cross, they promised to come back and bomb my house and all that kind of stuff. Do you want a story about that? HANSON: I do, indeed. RUTLAND: You know, Bob Lindberg was also a member of our church. HANSON: The police chief at that time? RUTLAND: Yes. And Mr. Conner would be elected one time and Mr. Lindberg, the next. Both of them were in our church. Well, we got so many threats one day, until we just thought this might be for real. They' ; re going to bomb our house tonight. We put the children in the back room and Mary and I went out and sat on the front porch. And, really, behind the hedges kind of. And, we sang How Firm a Foundation. We sang to each other and we prayed and we waited. And, in a few minutes, a car came by. We lived on a corner, and it came by and went slowly around that corner. And looking back on it, if we had had any judgment, we would have known, that if the people in that car was going to do anything to us, that they would have done it. They wouldn' ; t have driven around two or three times. But on about the third time they came around real slowly. Mary said she had to go in the house for a moment and she went and called Bob Lindberg. It must have been one or two o' ; clock in the morning. One o' ; clock anyhow. And, she talked to him and said, " ; Mr. Lindberg, we' ; re scared. There' ; s a car going around." ; And he said, " ; ls it a,..." ; and described the car and Mary said, " ; Yes, I think that' ; s right." ; He said, " ; Well, does it have a ' ; 54 tag on it?" ; She said, " ; Yes, I think it does as a matter of fact." ; That' ; s Pickens County and that' ; s where we served one time. He said, " ; Well, you go to bed and forget it, he said, that' ; s my man." ; He said, " ; I have people guarding your house 24 hours a day, didn' ; t you know that?" ; HANSON: Did you have the same kind of protection when Bull Conner was police chief? RUTLAND: No. No. HANSON: Why not? RUTLAND: I don' ; t know. He just didn' ; t think I was in danger. And, that didn' ; t give me a lot of comfort, as a matter of fact it made me feel a little worse, because I said, " ; If they think it' ; s that dangerous, there must be something to it." ; I don' ; t believe anybody ever intended to bomb our house, I really don' ; t. But they told us that and you could never be sure, you know. HANSON: Because at the time the fear was so over pervasive, all around if you dare stand up at any time. Let' ; s look a little bit at what happened in 1961, because that turned the tide. By this time, Lindberg is out. Bull Conner is in. He is coming to your church every Sunday and where was he that famous Mother' ; s Day when all of the buses... RUTLAND: He called me early that morning and he said, " ; Preacher, do you know what time that these people are coming in?" ; And, I said, " ; Mr. Conner, if I knew, I wouldn' ; t tell you." ; And I was honest. I did not know what time. He thought I was connected with them, which I was not. Not before anyhow. After some of them got beat up and so forth, I tried to minister to them, but at that time, I was not in the know. I was not one of the leaders that brought them in. So, I didn' ; t know. When I said, " ; Mr. Conner I don' ; t know when they' ; re coming, but if I did, I wouldn' ; t tell you." ; But, I said, " ; Listen, I want to see you just for a few minutes some time." ; And he said, " ; All right." ; And, I went down to see him. This is on Sunday, if you remember. HANSON: You went down to the police station? RUTLAND: Yes. And I begged him. I said, " ; Mr. Conner I know what you' ; re going to do. You say you' ; re going to protect them. I know better than that. You know better than that. too." ; And I begged him, " ; Please to give protection and not what he gave." ; I didn' ; t get anywhere. HANSON: Was there not a dichotomy here between Bull Conner coming to church every Sunday and yet not listening to you, his pastor, not opening his heart in any way or shape. Was that frustration to you? RUTLAND: He didn' ; t bother me as much as it did him, I guess. My favorite story about him and my wife would certainly want me to tell this story because it' ; s her favorite story. One Sunday morning I went down and Mr. Conner and two other people were standing just like that in front of my church. And, I walked up, I said, I never call him Mr. Conner, I always called him Bull. But on this day I said, " ; Mr. Conner, what are you doing here?" ; And I' ; m going to use a word I don' ; t ever use. He said, " ; I' ; m not going to let any niggers come in my church." ; I said, " ; Oh, Mr. Conner, you got it all mixed up. This is not your church. This church belongs to the North Alabama Conference of the United Methodist Church and I am the trustee who is in charge of this church and I will decide who goes into the church, not you. That' ; s my decision. Now, I' ; m going around here and call Mel Bailey and I' ; m going to come back here in five minutes and if you' ; re still standing here, Mr. Bailey is going to come out here and I' ; ll swear out a warrant for you, Mr. Conner." ; Remember he was police commissioner. I said, " ; I' ; ll swear out a warrant for you and have you arrested for trespassing." ; So, when I turned the corner, he said, " ; Come on, fellows, that son of a bitch will do what he says." ; HANSON: But, he didn' ; t come into the church to pray? He didn' ; t come into the church to take part in the service? RUTLAND: Oh, he came to worship services all the time. Once a month or so he' ; d jump up and say I' ; m not going to listen to anything like that and walk out. HANSON: You mean he would disrupt the service? RUTLAND: Oh, yes. Well, he was just running for office, that' ; s all he was doing. Bull Conner was not vicious with the White people, at least. He was not vicious with me. He gave us a good Christmas present every year. HANSON: What did he give you? RUTLAND: Well, one time he gave me a great big box of cookies and I told Mary I was afraid to eat them. HANSON: You said you ministered to the people on the bus that came down? RUTLAND: Yes. HANSON: There were many, many Christian activists that came into Alabama on that famous Mother' ; s Day and they were brutally, brutally treated. When you say that, did that sort of act as a change in your life in any way, shape or form? RUTLAND: I doubt it because I was already under the gun so much. You know when you' ; ve had a cross burned in your yard and you get threats like we' ; d been getting, you know. Nobody every hit me. And, when you have tried to work with the people to bring about an end to the boycott that they were having and all that stuff. I had been so involved with that until I have to admit, I was surprised. I didn' ; t think Mr. Conner would, and I doubt if he meant for it to turn out as bad as it did. I think it' ; s just like letting a snowball start down a hill and just picking up people who were involved, just getting worse than he thought they would. HANSON: You really believe that? RUTLAND: Yes, I do. HANSON: Even though he took a very arrogant stand afterwards? RUTLAND: Well, you know what he was doing was running for office. And we got to remember that. And I don' ; t know how much better we are today. I think we' ; re some better. But the community today, is still very, yery determined to keep things as they are. Status quo people. And, if you' ; re going to run for an office, you got to pretend, at least, that that' ; s what you are. HANSON: And you' ; re saying it' ; s all politics? RUTLAND: I think with Bull Conner it was, yes. HANSON: And you are saying today this is true? You still see racism here we' ; re talking now in ' ; 95? RUTLAND: Sure. Sure. I think it is. That' ; s the reason, Republicans got elected. It' ; s because the Republican Party stands, whether it' ; s right or wrong, in the minds of so many people, it stands for White supremacy. HANSON: And you think that' ; s why it' ; s taken over. In other words, nothing has changed in Alabama? RUTLAND: Well, I think a lot of things have changed. I think some of the leaders in our offices in Birmingham and throughout the state, we have some people who are not like that. But I think if you' ; re going to run for office in Jefferson County, particularly, if you want to be elected, you better take a stand that we' ; re going to keep Blacks over there and Whites over here. HANSON: What can we do, do you think, in your view now as you look back to possibly change this? That' ; s a difficult question. RUTLAND: Every individual must do what every individual can do. HANSON: And not be afraid to speak up? RUTLAND: Yes. Every other week I meet with a group of Black people over across town, 10th Avenue and 30th Street. It was, we' ; ve moved down to 41st Street now. And I may just move in a home over there with people, every one of them are fine people. Oh, they were, many of them when we started this little group were very much involved with drugs and alcohol. But many of them, most of them now have come to know a better way of life. And, I do that. That' ; s about 30 people maybe that I' ; m trying to touch. But, I can' ; t touch 3,000 people and I can' ; t touch...Let' ; s go back to that time leading up to 1961 and the actions that followed thereafter. What did this do to your children growing up in an environment like that? They saw the cross being burned. Was the cross burned at your house or the church, by the way? RUTLAND: House. We were out of town. They didn' ; t see it being burned. Most people who burn crosses don' ; t do it when people are home. Well, my son is a minister of a upward Methodist church in Huntsville. And he' ; s as strong for civil rights as I am. My daughter is a teacher in Hazel Green School and a leader in the church in Hazel Green which is out from Huntsville. And, if anything she' ; s stronger than my son or me. So, evidently it didn' ; t drive them the wrong way. HANSON: So what do you see happened? There came a time of almost peace in Birmingham, if you could say that. After 1963, going up to ' ; 66, up to ' ; 69, there was kind of a movement by people speaking out, coming out saying maybe we should have better race relations. Now, you' ; re saying it has turned back. You' ; re saying the clock is turned back. RUTLAND: No. I didn' ; t say that. Because I' ; m not involved, you need to ask David Vann that question or Chuck Morgan or some of the people who are still involved in the Civil Rights Movement. I have, not because I don' ; t want to be involved, but just because of my age and because of other opportunities. Then, I' ; ve been out of Birmingham, too. But I would say, as far as I know, there are no church organizations, especially no ministers organizations that are working for better relationships. Now there may be some organizations I don' ; t know about, but the ones I know, there was a time when we had Greater Birmingham ministers meeting and we' ; d go in there and have all kinds of arguments and discuss this thing, get mad at each other and then pray, and get good humor and go home and I believe that had something to do with the way that the things in Birmingham came. But don' ; t give us preachers any credit, much for what happened. You give that to David Vann and Arthur Shores, do you remember him? HANSON: I do, indeed. RUTLAND: Arthur Shores and people of that sort who were lay people who were really trying to do something where it was hard to get something done. You see, we were always hiding behind the church. Nobody is going to come through the church and get you, you know. I know that Bob Hughes really got into difficulty because he refused to give the powers that were, he refused to· glve a copy of the names of the people who were in that organization. HANSON: The Alabama Council on Human Relations? RUTLAND: Yes. And Bob was real strong on that. And, I admire him for it when he was in jail out at Bessemer. I called our Bishop and I said, " ; You got a preacher in jail, Bishop, let' ; s go see him." ; And the Bishop said, " ; I' ; m real busy, how about you going." ; And " ; No. You call the district superintendent." ; I called the district superintendent and I said, " ; Listen, I' ; m going out to see Bob, you want to go with me?" ; " ; No, no." ; He said, " ; I' ; ve got something else to do." ; So, Frank Dawson who was our youth director and I went out to see Bob Hughes. I' ; m trying to think of the DA out there at Bessemer at that time. Sullens, I believe. Anyhow we went by to see him and he took us out there. But first, they wouldn' ; t let us see him. We went to go see him and they took us by to see him and we were instrumental I hope in getting Bob out of jail that day. But Bob Hughes was a brave man. And he stood for what he thought was right. Now, I don' ; t think that kind of thing would happen today. HANSON: (inaudible) Methodist minister or a minister being put in jail? RUTLAND: No. I can' ; t believe that. HANSON: But, you instead see a climate of racism, you' ; re saying? RUTLAND: Yes. I guess. It isn' ; t the vicious racism. I mean by that it isn' ; t the physical, we' ; re going to hit somebody on the head kind. But it' ; s kind of a subtle sort of thing. When a person comes to our church, for instance, when a Black person comes to our church, nobody gets up and says, " ; Hey you can' ; t come in here" ; , and like that. But they freeze them out. They just, I don' ; t mean just my particular church, but this is what I think is happening in all White churches in town. HANSON: Let' ; s go back again to your upbringing if we can, pastor. I think that I would like to find out. You said it was your mother primarily that did this. What about your father? You grew up in a segregated environment. RUTLAND: My father died when I was nine years old. We were in the worse segregated county, I guess, in Alabama, the free state of Winston. I was in Haleyville, Alabama. HANSON: You say that was more segregated than other places? RUTLAND: Well, we just didn' ; t have any Black people there at all. HANSON: So you didn' ; t have to worry about it? RUTLAND: That' ; s right. We had about two Black families and I was friends with both of them because my mother taught me that when somebody is being put down, you get on their side, and that' ; s the way I was taught. HANSON: So, you went to school where, to college? RUTLAND: I went to Birmingham Southern. HANSON: But you must have stood alone there when you were out there. RUTLAND: There were no Black people in Birmingham Southern. HANSON: There were no Black people but you certainly had to have opinions about race relations in Birmingham. Did you speak out as a student? RUTLAND: Well, I can' ; t remember if we were doing a lot of speaking out on that or not. I' ; m sure that if there came a time that somebody needed to say something about it, I would have, because I was at that time just as strong for the integration of races as I am today. HANSON: What about when you got your first church? Where was your first church? RUTLAND: Well, I had a little mining camp churches when I was in college. And, of course, in those days, United Mine Workers was a strong, strong organization of which I was a part. HANSON: You were a member of the United Mine Workers? RUTLAND: Oh, sure. No. I wasn' ; t a member, I was an auxiliary member. HANSON: In other words, you were a very strong union man? RUTLAND: Yes. Right. And, of course, I think the United Mine Workers did as much as anybody to bring Black and White together. Because when they got a raise for the White folk, they got a raise for the Black folk. When they got better living condition for the White folk, they got it for the Black folk. Unfortunately, I don' ; t know how this happened, either. The labor unions got big bosses, you know. Not John L. Lewis, boy, he' ; s great. And so was some other people, Walter Reuther and people like. But, beneath them, they got some leaders who were just hungry for money. And they just grabbed all the money they could get and, in my opinion, and the labor union lost in the eyes of the people, kind of lost of credence there. But, and I don' ; t think the labor unions are doing much today for race relations. They may be, but I don' ; t know. HANSON: But this was also a time with a lot of racial hate. I mean you have Crack Hanna. You have things like this happening in the steel mills, coming in, strike breaking. Where did you stand on that and did you preach against that? RUTLAND: Sure. I was... HANSON: Well, you say this very matter of factly. There were a lot of polite churches where pastors did not speak out, Rev. Rutland. RUTLAND: Well, of course I just happened not to be one of them. No. I don' ; t count myself as being a great hero that stood out here as a one man fighting against the whole world. And I never one time, I guess, thought hey, I' ; m going to go down here and say something brave. I never got in trouble in my life intentionally. I would just do what I thought was right. And, when I did that thing, I didn' ; t sit back and say this is going to get me in trouble. It' ; s just like water running down hill. When something happens, you just do what' ; s right and, then you find out, hey you' ; re in a bunch of trouble. They had a little riot out at Woodlawn High school when I was there. Well, I didn' ; t call and ask Mary what I should do. I didn' ; t even go to the altar and pray and say God, what do you want me to do. I saw those kids walking down there with great big banners across there saying " ; kill the black bastards" ; and I knew that was not right. So, what did I do? HANSON: What did you do? RUTLAND: I went out and got a hold of them. Some of them were in our church. I' ; d get a hold of him and I' ; d say, " ; Hey man, what' ; s the matter with you. You can' ; t do this." ; And almost to a person they' ; d shake their haze and act like they' ; d been in a daze or something. And, so, by the help of some wonderful police and some of our people, we got the thing broken up before it did too much damage. But, I didn' ; t sit down in my office and say now, let me see, if I do this, I' ; m going to get my head beat in. If I do this, they' ; re going to do that to me. I just said, this is what I' ; ve got to do, and I did it. HANSON: Did you ever fear for your life, for your children' ; s life, for your wife' ; s life enough to keep you from taking a stand? I mean we must remember this was a time of enormous fear. RUTLAND: Well, some people would say you' ; re a very courageous man. That isn' ; t true, I was not courageous. I was scared to death all the time. Yes, I thought the night that I told you about a moment ago, until I realized that people don' ; t walk around your house three times and, then, bomb you. They' ; re just bomb you. A guy doesn' ; t pull out a gun and say I' ; m going to shoot you. If he ever pulls out a gun and say I' ; m going to shoot you, forget it. If he' ; s going to shoot you, he' ; ll shoot you and say hey, I shot you. He' ; s not going to pull that gun and say I' ; m going to shoot you. But, anyhow, yes I was scared that night. I was really afraid. I really anticipated something bad happening. It didn' ; t happen. HANSON: But afraid for your children. Did they follow your children to school? Did they do any threats that way? RUTLAND: Yes. At least once a week somebody would call and say we' ; re going, well, they said they were going to rape my wife more than anything else. And, then, they' ; d say we know that cute little girl of yours, we know how we can get a hold of her. And that kind of thing. Well, of course, I told Bob Lindberg that and Bob said he had people following and, so, we got along all right. HANSON: Did your wife ever get afraid? Did she ever say, cut this out John. I think the time has come not to stay. Let' ; s move on. RUTLAND: Well, she never really did have the strong conviction on this that I have. She does now. But she did not have then. And, she really wanted me not to be quite so strong. HANSON: But you didn' ; t listen to her? RUTLAND: Well, I tried to persuade her. HANSON: And you think you did? RUTLAND: Yes. Well, she stood by me. HANSON: But, (inaudible) says in the book, and the name is something that escapes me now, that they ran you out of the Woodlawn church. You are saying that' ; s not true? Let' ; s correct it for the record. RUTLAND: That is not true. They did not run me out. That' ; s the only thing he said. He said some other things that were incorrect, but that' ; s the one thing that bothered me most. Because I do not want the people in Woodlawn, the people in that church to be thought of as people who run me out. Now, don' ; t misunderstand me. There were a lot of people who would have like to have run me out. And, I guess that' ; s what he meant to say. His daddy was one of them. HANSON: Wanted to run you out? RUTLAND: Yes. And, so he heard that kind of thing. But people like Mr. O' ; Toole and Claude Hughes and Dr. Farnum and a lot of others that I could mention. The Kirby' ; s, (inaudible) and that group, they stood by me, although many of them thought I was going too far. And they did not like where I was going. One time Sydney Hill, who by the way, still is living out at Trinity, and still standing for the right thing, but Sydney Hill was chairman of our administrative board and they got up and made a motion they were going to give the Methodist Layman' ; s Union some money. Well, the Methodist Layman' ; s Union was nothing but a White Citizens Council in disguise. And, so when they got through with that and they turned around to me and he said, the man presenting, he said, " ; Now you answer all these things, preacher." ; And, I said, " ; I don' ; t have to answer Mr. (I' ; ll give him another name), Mr. Young, I don' ; t have to answer that. The only thing I want to say to you, you' ; re no longer on this administrative board." ; When I knew I did not have the authority to take anybody off the administrative board, but he didn' ; t know that. And I knew he didn' ; t know that. So I just said, " ; You' ; re no longer on this board" ; , and I just left. I said, " ; You folks do what you want to with it." ; After they stayed in there about five minutes, Syd came by and said, " ; Well, we just didn' ; t even discuss it. We turned it down. And I want five minutes in the service next Sunday." ; And he got up the next Sunday and read the most beautiful statement about supporting a preacher whether you agree with him or not. And the hold church stood up and clapped. So, I had support from that church. I also had a lot of people not supporting me. But I didn' ; t leave that church because they ran me off. HANSON: Then, why did you leave the church? RUTLAND: Because I had been there nine years and we had people who would never come back to that church as long as I was there. People, some of whom, moved their membership. And, I felt like those people who didn' ; t get anything from my ministry had suffered long enough. And I thought they ought to get somebody, let them come in and let them come back. And, many of them did come back. HANSON: Did the person who follow you take as strong a stand as you? RUTLAND: Oh, no. HANSON: In other words, it was more traditional this standard. RUTLAND: No. He was way on the other side. He was a right wing person who believed in segregation and was going to keep it that way forever and that kind of thing. And I hated that so bad. But that' ; s the way the Methodist church is, you know. You send one preacher does one thing and the other does something else. HANSON: Did you ever have any bitterness against the Methodist church for not standing more behind you and other people that wanted to stand out? You' ; ve told me stories about the Bishop. RUTLAND: ...you to be one of us and everybody know you' ; re one of us. Please give it some consideration. Well my wife and my son both thought I was egotistical and terrible because I did not give him the permission to give me a degree. So, after they beat on me a while and he called back the next morning, I agreed to do it. I said all that to say this, that I didn' ; t get the degree earlier because of my stand on race relations. I got the degree later. HANSON: --So you think that the Methodist church or Christian churches are coming around in anyway. I mean the Baptist have suddenly gotten together, Black and White. RUTLAND: I want to congratulate the Baptist church, I think there doing a wonderful job, I really do. I think the Methodist church who was the leader when I was in this kind of thing, I think we were the leaders then but I think we have kind of calmed down a little bit and, I don' ; t think that we' ; ve, would say that we don' ; t want to see Blacks and Whites together. I think it' ; s just we' ; ve decided we want to do some other things and we just kind of easing up a little bit (inaudible). In those days when a few of us was really fighting for unification of Blacks and Whites, which we' ; ve done in the Methodist church, you know, we just have one conference now for Blacks and Whites. It took a terrible, terrible battle to get that done. And, so they' ; re all together in the conference. But I want to say that the fellowship is much better. I hope it is. HANSON: Thank you very much. RUTLAND: Well, thank you for letting me come and do this. And let me emphasize the fact that I don' ; t think that looking back on this thing, I want to tell you one more thing. HANSON: Sure. RUTLAND: Looking back on this, I don' ; t look at myself as being anything courageous or more wise or better than other people who were not doing anything. One night after the cross burning I went down to our church and I knelt down by the altar as I did every day I was there. And I was praying for the Black people in our community because just a few nights before I had stopped at a little place on 3rd Avenue South where they had 36 people living with one spicket (inaudible) was all the water they had and one out house for these 36 people, and that' ; s the only way these people had to use toilet facilities and I leaned over in my, it was about 1:00, I had been to the hospital. And I leaned over against my steering wheel and I just cried like a baby. And, while I was crying there somebody knocked on the window and I rolled it down and it was a policeman. And he said, " ; What are you doing here?" ; And I said, " ; I' ; m the pastor of the church in Woodlawn." ; He said, " ; Oh, I know who you are." ; And he said, " ; Don' ; t think you' ; re the only one praying for these people." ; This is a White policeman. He said, " ; I' ; m praying for them, too." ; So the next Sunday night I was down there praying for these Black people and I heard a voice, I don' ; t know if you ever hear a voice or not. But I heard a voice saying, " ; Pray for the Ku Klux Klan." ; I said, " ; Not me. You' ; re asking the wrong thing. I cannot do that." ; And the voice said, " ; If you cannot pray for the Ku Klux Klan you cannot pray for anybody." ; And, so I have prayed for the Ku Klux Klan since then as I pray for my Black brothers and sisters. Thank you for letting me do this. HANSON: Thank you. 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Title
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Rev. John Rutland
Description
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Rev. John Rutland discusses participating in the movement as Bull Conner's minister, including taking in the Freedom Riders at his church. He and his family faced fierce opposition and threats of violence as a result.
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19950721R
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Civil rights movements--Alabama—Birmingham
Date
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1995-07-21
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video