Walter Wilson III Interviewed on June 7, 1995

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mr. Walter Wilson, Ill for the Birmingham Civil Rights lnstitute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 7, 1995.

Thank you Mr. Wilson for coming out and being with us today.

WILSON: Thank you very much.

HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking you some general kinds of questions about your family. What part of the state were your parents from?

WILSON: My mother was born in Dayton, Alabama. My father, I don't know where he was born. I think he was born in Birmingham. My people lived here. I lived here all my life.

HUNTLEY: You were born here in Birmingham?

WILSON: I was born in Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: Did you have brothers and sisters?

WILSON: I have two brothers younger and a sister younger.

HUNTLEY: So you are the elder statesman?

WILSON: I am.

HUNTLEY: Good. Tell me about your parents' education.

WILSON: Well, as far as I know my father may have finished high school. My mother went to night school to finish, I know.

HUNTLEY: Yes. She finished high school.

WILSON: And my grandparents had finished school.

HUNTLEY: What about your parents' occupations.

HUNTLEY: Well, I can remember my mother having only one job other than the one while she worked for the church. She worked for Robert James Printing Company back in the 50s and I remember her talking about it. And I think that she got fir13d because of the fact that I was with Shuttlesworth and we were trying to 00:02:00get something done about the integration of schools in Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: I am going to come back to that and ask you about that. Let me just ask you, what community did you live in at the time that you were growing up?

WILSON: Avondale and Smithfield.

HUNTLEY: Avondale and Smithfield? And what elementary school did you attend?

WILSON: I went to Thomas Elementary School.

HUNTLEY: Thomas Elementary. And, then, from Thomas to..?

WILSON: Ullman High School.

HUNTLEY: To Ullman. And you graduated from Ullman High School?

WILSON: Right.

HUNTLEY: All right. Tell me, what do you remember about Ullman? What was it like going to Ullman?

WILSON: Well, it was great the first two years and then it seems like it was mediocre after that. I wanted to go to Parker the last year because the old people had told me where the best classes were. They were saying that Ullman had 00:03:00a good school, but Parker had the best 12th grade and I went to Parker that 12th year to transfer there and I saw so many fights going up and down the aisle, going to the principal's office, I turned around and come back and went back to Ullman.

HUNTLEY: Oh, so you finished Ullman then?

WILSON: Yes.

HUNTLEY: So you felt that Ullman was better than Parker after that?

WILSON: Right.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school?

WILSON: I went to Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia for one year. And I joined the air force. And I stayed in the air force until '63. I faced a lot of prejudiced in the air force and then I came home and got my GI bill and I went to Lawson State two years.

HUNTLEY: Did you spend four years in the air force?

WILSON: Three years. In the air force the first sergeant was prejudiced and he 00:04:00saw to me getting out early.

HUNTLEY: So you got an early out.

WILSON: Early out.

HUNTLEY: Let me back up just a bit. I know that in 1957 you were one of the students that" made the attempt to integrate Phillips High School. You were in fact with Fred Shuttlesworth and his children the morning they went into Phillips. Can you tell me about that?

WILSON: Well, we drove up on the lot to the doors and Shuttlesworth said "Well, here the school is, that's where you want to go." So he said, "You can get out and go up there." So I opened the door and I was the first one out of the car. I got out the car and I started walking towards the school.

HUNTLEY: Did the others get out with you?

WILSON: No. Shuttlesworth got out. You see, what happened was, the crowd of people started running towards the car. They were Klu Klux, the Whites or whatever you call them. And Shuttlesworth got out of the car behind me and he told me, he said, "Run and get back in the car." And the people, these Whites come up hitting him with chains and bats and he finally worked his way back to the car and got in and we drove off. But it didn't take long but I really wanted to go to that school, even though I knew that we had to get something in court or get a suit in for me to get in there. I knew they weren't going to let me in there because the law hadn't been changed.

HUNTLEY: So you were the only child that got out of the car to go up to the school?

WILSON: Right.

HUNTLEY: And, then, Shuttlesworth got out behind you?

WILSON: Right.

HUNTLEY: And as the crowd approached him, he sent you back to the car?

WILSON: Right. And they beat him.

HUNTLEY: And they didn't bother you?

WILSON: No. They didn't touch me.

HUNTLEY: Could they have if they had wanted?

WILSON: Well, they broke the windows out of the car on the side where I was sitting in and broke all the windows. The daughters were in the car crying. "Give me a fork. I wish I had a fork so I could get out there and help him fight."

HUNTLEY: "A fork?" What do you mean?

WILSON: It's what you eat with. They wanted something to fight with.

HUNTLEY: Oh, that's what the daughters were saying?

WILSON: Oh, yes.

HUNTLEY: Oh, but no one else ever got out of the car and he finally made it back to the car?

WILSON: Right.

HUNTLEY: Who was driving, do you remember?

WILSON: He was driving.

HUNTLEY: He was driving?

WILSON: Right.

HUNTLEY: So it was just he...

WILSON: His wife.

HUNTLEY: Rev. Phiffer?

WILSON: Rev. Phiffer was not in the car I don't think. Who I remember was his wife, his two daughters, me and Rev. Shuttlesworth, that's all I remember.

HUNTLEY: So, did they come to your house to pick you up that morning?

WILSON: I am not sure about that.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember why you were selected, or did you volunteer? How did you get to be a part of this effort?

WILSON: My mother asked me did I want to attend Phillips High School was closer than Ullman or Parker and I think the law said something about you go to the closest school. And, I think the suit claimed that if Phillips was closer, why not let Blacks go to Phillips instead of passing by on the bus going to Parker and Ullman. Now I was only 12 years old. And these things been on my mind a long time. I don't know exactly whether it's hearsay I'm talking or what I remember from that time.

HUNTLEY: Did you attend any of the Monday night meetings?

WILSON: Yes, I did.

HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what those meetings were like?

WILSON: Well, I think Rev. Shuttlesworth would get up and talk and ask for suggestions as to what things could be done to help improve the city or help get Blacks integrated into the system of the city, get better positions in the schools and the cities.

HUNTLEY: Were there other young people, a lot of other young people like yourself, involved in those Monday night meetings? Do you remember?

WILSON: Well, they were there.

HUNTLEY: Were any of your friends involved? Close friends that went to school with you or that lived in your community?

WILSON: I don't remember.

HUNTLEY: What else do you remember about those meetings? Other than Shuttlesworth.

WILSON: Oh, it was a good place to go on Monday night.

HUNTLEY: Why did you say it's a good place to go?

WILSON: Well, you had Rev. Shuttlesworth talking and people complaining about what things needed to be done in the city for Blacks to move up ahead.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember policeman being involved in those meetings? Or being present there?

WILSON: I don't remember seeing any.

HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of the demonstrations?

WILSON: No. I didn't. I just went to Phillips High School to try to get a better education. I didn't participate in the marches. I was not in the city. I had joined the service in '63 and I was in Nashville, Tennessee. And it seemed like every time something came up, like in '63 when Shuttlesworth was here, I was in Paris, France. It seem like I came home a lot but I just wasn't involved in too 00:10:00much more other than just the schooling.

HUNTLEY: Were there other members of your family that were involved in the Movement?

WILSON: Well, I can remember my brother telling me, they went down when Bull Conner had the hoses at them. My grandmother and they made fun of what was said and done while they were participating.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the day when they took you over to the hospital? Or when you went to the hospital with Shuttlesworth?

WILSON: Is there anything that you remember about that occurrence?

WILSON: Well, I remember -- I saw this picture. It has Shuttlesworth, his wife, his daughters and me on the picture, do you know what I am talking about?

HUNTLEY: Right.

WILSON: Well, all I know is that Shuttlesworth is the only one that got hurt. 00:11:00And that was probably the reason why we were at the hospital.

HUNTLEY: But, you do remember him driving the car from Phillips High School to the hospital?

WILSON: No. I don't.

HUNTLEY: You don't remember that?

WILSON: No. I remember him driving the car to Phillips High School, me getting out and start walking towards the school, him jumping out behind me and running and say, "Go get back in the car." And I saw the people beating him with chains and bats and sticks and things. He finally worked his way back to get in the car and when he got in the car, they broke the windows out and we drove off. That was really all that I remember in that picture.

HUNTLEY: How did that experience impact you as a young person at the time?

WILSON: Well, you know I was proud to be part of the system -- of the Christian 00:12:00Movement. We had a lifetime membership with the NAACP. We had membership with the Baptist -- well, anyway I am just proud to have been a part of it. That's the way it was.

HUNTLEY: And, do you think that by your being a part of that, did that play any role in what you would do later on in life or how you would view the struggle from that point on?

WILSON: Well, back during the time, Klu Klux, Whites called the house. And they would talk to me and so I would talk to them on the telephone.

HUNTLEY: What would they say to you?

WILSON: "What do you think you are going to do? Go to school with Whites? Why do 00:13:00you want to go to school with Whites? And they would be watching me even up until later on in age when I got to be 50 or 60 years old, so they would still be watching me. And I remember -- it doesn't seem like those things that they said are unconsciously still in my mind.

HUNTLEY: Do you think that they are watching or have been watching you?

WILSON: Well, I got to say it seem like I see people who are out of my past who come and pass by or wave. Some of the same people that was against us going to that school, they are still in this city and they do not want to see the city 00:14:00progress, yet.

HUNTLEY: So you think there is some residue from that time to the present time?

WILSON: Right.

HUNTLEY: You said that you talked with the Ku Klux Klansmen when they called the house, did that frighten you?

WILSON: Not at the time. It doesn't frighten me now. I just seem wary of the fact that they are around. It seems like they say, "If you get married before you get to be 50 years old, it better be to a White woman." Seems like that's what they said to me from back 40 years ago.

HUNTLEY: Wait a minute. I don't understand. You are saying that --

WILSON: They talk to me. I talk to them. They made fun and they threaten. We had people watching our house. We had people sitting on the porch with guns because they said they were going to come by and bomb. And they said, "If you get 00:15:00married before you get to be 50 years, it better be to a White woman." It's some of the things that they did that I remember.

HUNTLEY: This is what the Klan said, "That if you got married before 50, you better get married to a White woman." Why would a Klansman say that you, a Black man should get married to a White woman?

WILSON: I don't know. I don't know. That's just one of the things I remember from back then.

HUNTLEY: How did this reflect your relationship, your attempting to go to Phillips High School? How did that affect your relationship with the students at Ullman when you went there? Did they know that you had attempted to do that?

WILSON: Oh, they seemed to be proud of me.

HUNTLEY: How did they show that pride in you?

WILSON: Well, we didn't talk about it too much. But sometime we would talk. And I was doing pretty good in school the first couple of years. I studied hard and 00:16:00we just talked about it. Then after awhile wasn't nothing said about it. All it was, was to get something in the court so that people behind us would be able to go to those schools because we didn't think we were going to be able to get in there.

HUNTLEY: Well, when you went on to Morehouse, to college, did this ever come up when you were a student, a freshman or sophomore at Morehouse?

WILSON: Yes, we talked about it.

HUNTLEY: You went to college in 1961?

WILSON: Right.

HUNTLEY: So the Movement now is starting to develop because you had student activism. Students in Atlanta and Nashville were getting involved. Were you involved in any of those efforts as a college student?

WILSON: No.

HUNTLEY: So then you decided to go to Tennessee State and then come back to Birmingham?

WILSON: Right.

HUNTLEY: And, then, you decided to go to the military and, then, finally come out and go back to college on the GI bill?

WILSON: Right. Well, my friend from Los Angeles, California who had been living in Atlanta with me, who had been going to school with me in Atlanta , he called up and said he had a job for me in Los Angeles so I went to Los Angeles to work.

HUNTLEY: This is after Morehouse?

WILSON: Right.

HUNTLEY: Between Morehouse and Tennessee State?

WILSON: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. And how long were you out there?

WILSON: Three months.

HUNTLEY:And, then, you came back?

WILSON: No. I joined the air force out there in '63.

HUNTLEY: Oh, you joined the air force from out there?

WILSON: Right.

HUNTLEY: All right. Then your activity in the Movement basically was limited to the participation at Phillips High School. Your mother was intimately involved 00:18:00as she was a member of the Membership Committee.

WILSON: I don't remember. I was only 12 at that time.

HUNTLEY: Yes. You were a child. So, of course, you didn't have the same opportunities to get involved. Let me just ask though. If looking back on that, if that was to be the case now, would you want to do the same thing again, going to Phillips High School, making the effort to desegregate? Witnessing the attack on Shuttlesworth?

WILSON: The only thing that I hate about it is, we just went there for one time. 00:19:00I think we should have continued to go back, and back and forth until they let us in.

HUNTLEY: So the attack did not frighten you?

WILSON: No, it didn't.

HUNTLEY: Yes. You really would have liked to have gone back. But actually the case was made as a result of your going at that time. Okay. Is there anything else that sort of stands out in your mind that relate to the Movement if we can relate it to your activity, your participation, is there anything else that we have not covered that you would like to deal with?

WILSON: Well, I had some papers and things I have been saving because after I got into the air force -- I faced prejudice in the high schools here in the 00:20:00city. I faced prejudice in the air force in Nashville, Tennessee. And it just seem to go on and on. It seems like we are moving ahead, but we are just facing more prejudice. When you get around them and stay around them, if you had done something, like try to integrate, they think you want to be White, or whatever and it's just more prejudice. It's just as much prejudice ·now as it was then, I guess.

HUNTLEY: You are saying it's just as much now as it was then?

WILSON: Right.

HUNTLEY: But you don't have to sit in the back of the bus now?

WILSON: Right.

HUNTLEY: You can go to Newberry's. Well, Newberry's is about gone, isn't it? You can sit any place you want. So how do you mean "there is just as much prejudice now as then?"

WILSON: Well, what I was referring to was the prejudice I faced in the air 00:21:00force. That's what I was referring to and that was in the 60s, too.

HUNTLEY: So you had prejudice here in the south and then prejudice in the military as well. How did that impact on your life as a whole?

WILSON: Well, I had some plans to start and do something for myself. When I got to be 50 years old and things have not worked out the way I wanted them to. And I think it was all because of the prejudice elements that have been committed against me or Black people, whatever you say. It's still holding them back and I think I have something to accomplish in life here. There are still some things I want to do and the prejudice seemed like it held me back. I didn't finish college. I didn't stay in the air force, but I wanted to.

HUNTLEY: Do you think that the things that have held you back, are they still out there or would we be able to accomplish any of these things and get around this whole idea of being held back by prejudice and racism?

WILSON: I think so.

HUNTLEY: You think we will be able to do it?

WILSON: Right.

HUNTLEY: Right. Well, I appreciate your time and coming to sit and talk with us because you are the first person I talked with who was actually there the day that Fred Shuttlesworth was beaten. Let me ask you one last question. How do you look at Fred Shuttlesworth as a man in the way in which he handled that situation at Phillips High School?

WILSON: I think he is a great man. And he was not afraid. He didn't mind 00:23:00fighting with those people and he didn't talk about it. He just got back in the car, we raced off and we went to the hospital. And they said, "Well, this is what we came here for. We knew we were not going to get a chance to go to this school, today." The only thing I say, is I think we should have went back the next day, and the next day until we finally got in there instead of waiting for them to take it through the courts.

HUNTLEY: A man of courage is what you would call Shuttlesworth?

WILSON: Yes, sir.

HUNTLEY: All right, Mr. Wilson. I appreciate you taking the time out and sitting with us.

And I am sure that those things that you want to accomplish in life that you will be successful at them.

WILSON: Thank you.

HUNTLEY: Thank you.