Walter Lee Gadsden

HENDRICKS: This is an interview, today is Saturday, May 25, 1996, at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute with Mr. Walter Gadsden of Atlanta, Georgia.

Mr. Gadsden, as we begin this interview I would like to ask you what part of the state were your parents from?

GADSDEN: The southern part of the State.

HENDRICKS: Were they born in Birmingham?

GADSDEN: No. I'm not quite sure, but I think Selma for my mother. But, the man that I called "Father" was from Mississippi originally.

HENDRICKS: How many brothers and sisters do you have?

GADSDEN: I have one sister.

HENDRICKS: Is she older than you?

GADSDEN: Yes.

HENDRICKS: How much education did your parents have?

GADSDEN: Well, from what I can ascertain, they were both educated as far as high school and the first school was concerned. I'd never been the one to ask about all of that.

HENDRICKS: Mr. Gadsden, when you were here in Birmingham as a child, what community did you live in?

GADSDEN: On the south side of town.

HENDRICKS: What basically was your racial make-up in that area?

GADSDEN: It was mostly Negro, Black, Colored.

HENDRICKS: Okay. Occupation during that time?

GADSDEN: I was a school kid.

HENDRICKS: I mean people in that area pretty much were on the same economic level?

GADSDEN: Well, it was a poorer neighborhood. Very poor.

HENDRICKS: What was that community's relationship to the City of Birmingham Police Department? Did you ever see any policemen patrolling your area?

GADSDEN: The immediate area that I lived in -- I lived at, well you know the address.

HENDRICKS: 3114?

GADSDEN: Right. So, the immediate neighborhood was rather rough. There were various outbreaks of violence amongst neighborhood people, but only amongst themselves, family matters and things of that sort. But various other neighboring neighborhoods, which weren't so very large, there would be a lot of police activity and I never knew what it was about.

HENDRICKS: How did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement?

GADSDEN: Now, that's one thing that I always have a problem with. I never did get involved with the Civil Rights Movement. I've always believed in trying to promote civil rights amongst people such as myself and anyone, as a matter of fact. But, the fact is the day of that movement, I was supposed to have been in school, but an acquaintance had told me earlier that Martin Luther King was in town that day and that he was going to be there and I said I wanted to be there too. I wanted to come and find out what it was all about because I didn't know anything about it.

HENDRICKS: When you left school, you were at what high school at the time?

GADSDEN: Ullman.

HENDRICKS: And, when you left school, where did you come downtown?

GADSDEN: To the park area, Kelly Ingram Park over there. And we walked around 00:04:00the corner and during that time activity wasn't easy to view, so we walked around and came in the front of the crowd, rather than behind. I thought it would be in the middle of the crowd somehow. I saw policemen and all of the activity so I started walking toward, I don't know what happened to the acquaintance of mine, but I was walking toward the activity and as I approached and got closer, they turned and looked at me and I got closer. I saw them coming toward me, so I turned to leave to go around and get with where the Black people were so I could get some information because I knew I wasn't going to get anything from the police. So, as I turned and started to walk away, I was grabbed.

HENDRICKS: Grabbed by the policemen?

GADSDEN: Grabbed by the policeman and yanked toward him and afterward I was 00:05:00grabbed and hustled to a white van and bodily picked up and thrown. As I started to step, I was just pushed on in.

HENDRICKS: Okay, but before this happened, when the police grabbed you on the collar, is that when the dog bit you? Did a dog bite you at that time?

GADSDEN: As near as I can remember that happened simultaneously. The policeman grabbed me, I don't remember what hand. I could show you the bite marks and all.

HENDRICKS: So you still have the scars?

GADSDEN: Yes. But, that happened simultaneously and I was surprised because I was walking away. During that time the racial air was so thick that whatever it 00:06:00was I couldn't really focus to find out what was going on because that was adult activity, the way I thought then. But, I was looking, I couldn't look up, I was looking at the white 3-wheel motorcycles coming toward me. It happened so fast there was nothing I could do except throw up a leg and try to protect myself. And, as I was doing that, there I went.

HENDRICKS: Did they take you to jail?

GADSDEN: Not the regular facility. They took me to the fairgrounds in a huge tent.

HENDRICKS: These circumstances were because of the mass arrests, is that why you had to go out to fair park?

GADSDEN: Yes, that's what I was told.

HENDRICKS: Do you remember how long you remained in jail or arrested?

GADSDEN: No, now that I cannot remember because a lot has happened since then and things that have happened prevent me from remembering at the moment. It's rather sketchy. I like being rather precise with whatever I say.

HENDRICKS: Did any other family member of yours participate in the Movement at all or get arrested or go to the mass meetings?

GADSDEN: No, not that I know about.

HENDRICKS: After you return to school after being arrested, were you suspended?

GADSDEN: I think so. I'm not quite sure. I remember being in the auditorium and the principal gave a good bombasting and the crowd began laughing, but I was standing there rather embarrassed at the outcome.

HENDRICKS: How did your family members react to your participation?

GADSDEN: Well, they were angry because I didn't attend school that day.

HENDRICKS: Were you a member of a church at that time?

GADSDEN: I wasn't a member of a church, but the family activity, I was rather instructed to go to church. But, often I would not go because of the fact that I'm not a very religious person.

HENDRICKS: The church where your parents or your family attending, were they involved in the Civil Rights Movement during that time, do you know?

GADSDEN: They never told me of it.

HENDRICKS: What church were they going to at that time?

GADSDEN: I see it, I know where it is, but I don't remember the name of it.

HENDRICKS: What benefits do you, your family and the community realized as a result of that movement in Birmingham?

GADSDEN: None.

HENDRICKS: You don't think that any benefits were done (Inaudible)?

GADSDEN: Well, overall is where gradually facilities where opened. The 'White only' signs and 'Colored only' signs were removed. But there was always the same racial air except among some Caucasian people. Some Caucasian people during that time were openly friendly and inviting as a matter of gaining access to normal community things, while most weren't. The only thing that I could see that 00:10:00actually happened was that the toilets became integrated and the water fountains became integrated and gradually various other things because of various influences among certain groups and because of the nationwide pressure that was put upon the Caucasians and the Whites of various other races in opening all of those opportunities. And the government is the main thing. All of that brought about governmental and political action that brought all that about. Now, that's stirred it, but its the votes and the political actions and the laws passed that brought all that about.

HENDRICKS: If you were in control of an organization or movement, as such, and could go back and change some things, what would you change?

GADSDEN: If I could go back to the movement of the past and change some things, the Civil Rights Movement?

HENDRICKS: Yes.

GADSDEN: Well, I'll take a look at the form, the shape, this could get me into trouble, but I really believe this and I really think this. It's not a feeling or anything.

HENDRICKS: This is your personal interview.

GADSDEN: Okay, the things that I would change would be a more careful choice of people involved in all of those movements, where the head meetings and all that was concerned. That was necessary as a matter of the laws not being changed 00:12:00anyway, because that would have remained status quo. But, the things that I would change would be -- well, I wouldn't change anything actually because that would be entirely hypothetical and being hypothetical isn't easy for me except when joking or just fantasizing and I don't like fantasizing too much. So there's nothing that I could really say about it, without really thinking about it. But, there are too many, well to be just blunt, crooked people. Many of the people that were involved and had notoriety became too crooked.

HENDRICKS: Okay.

GADSDEN: Illegal.

HENDRICKS: What is your assessment of the Birmingham movement or have you been gone too long to really be able to tell what assessment has occurred in Birmingham? How successful do you think the Birmingham movement was? What were 00:13:00it's accomplishments or what were its failures? Now, you may or may not be able to answer that question because if you've been gone a good part of Birmingham you may not know.

GADSDEN: Well, where Birmingham is concerned the political issues, the civil issues, the business issues, I have no knowledge of because I've been gone for years. Earlier when I said that people, or some of the people that were involved, became too crooked, I was talking about the whole United States as a whole, not just Birmingham, Alabama. There aren't any particular cases of that that I can mention without causing major concern where my own welfare is 00:14:00concerned, being sued or (Inaudible), or slandering someone and all that kind of thing, I'm not going to do that.

HENDRICKS: Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with at this interview? And comments or statements you want to make of anything that you would like to leave with the young people that may hear your testimony?

GADSDEN: Well, there isn't much that I could really say because of the fact that where anything is concerned there's always the air that Black people have done so much for the Black people of the country. And, then called Black all the time and, then called African all the time, which I'm not, that makes -- Africans really don't like me much. So, there's really not much I can relate to you on 00:15:00that because of the fact that I'm not a popular person where personals are concerned. Maybe because of (Inaudible) you say, but I've never had any notoriety. I've never even talked about it. I never talked about it with anyone, as a matter of fact.

HENDRICKS: You now reside in Atlanta, Georgia. Do you have any assessments as you look at Atlanta and compare it to Birmingham? Do you have anything that you may want to say about the two cities?

GADSDEN: Well, the two cities compare but I cannot really make that comparison because of the fact that I was living there and not here, and occasionally visiting here but not becoming involved in anything. So, the political structure I can't say anything about because I'm not familiar with Birmingham's political 00:16:00structure or business structure or anything else about it. But, where Atlanta is concerned, it was basically integrated, so to speak, but there was still that racial attitude, nonetheless and now. But, since Blacks have been pressuring so much and becoming involved in so much, it's eased some, but in 1980 I went to a barber shop that I found was White in the middle of downtown Atlanta and got refused.

HENDRICKS: That was in 1980?

GADSDEN: 1980 with a Black mayor and everything else. I've been, not because of any rowdiness or anything like that but just because of racial attitudes, had the police called on me while I was sitting in a bar drinking beer alone, not 00:17:00saying anything to anyone and thinking about drinking the beer, maybe getting another one and leaving. And, there comes a Black policeman and said the management wants me to leave because they reserve the right not to serve whom it is that they don't want to serve.

HENDRICKS: Well, do you think that was only because of the color of your skin? Were you the only Black in there?

GADSDEN: I was the only person in there with my color.

HENDRICKS: So you still experience that in Atlanta, Georgia?

GADSDEN: Yes.

HENDRICKS: Let me ask you about your visit with us here today. How do you feel after having seen the statue that is out there, of foot soldiers and it shows the images of you in that picture that was taken in 1963 of May?

GADSDEN: That statue doesn't look like me. It looks like a totally different boy. That looks like an African boy.

HENDRICKS: That's the way you feel about it? It looks like an African boy?

GADSDEN: It looks like an African boy.

HENDRICKS: The color or the features?

GADSDEN: The features. The lips, the size. You take a look at the picture there and the statue there, the boy is short, I was tall for my age. I was looking down at the dog, but that was his interpretation, the artist, I suppose. But, the boy doesn't look like me. And, I mean it's representative of, that's the way I think about it. I'm wondering still, why me, because I've never had any notoriety whatsoever concerning that picture. That picture was in the paper, but many other people were too. Many other situations, buses, bombings.

HENDRICKS: But they chose to use the little boy at 15 for that statue.

GADSDEN: The little boy in age, but not the little boy in size.

HENDRICKS: But that's what they chose to do.

GADSDEN: That's what they chose.

HENDRICKS: How do you feel about it?

GADSDEN: Well, it's -- I really don't know how to say it.

HENDRICKS: Were you surprised when you found out about it?

GADSDEN: I was totally flabbergasted. I didn't know what to think. When I first contacted you I was in Kentucky and I couldn't sleep, so I didn't know what to say. I'm still at a loss for words concerning the reasoning because of that, I don't know.

HENDRICKS: The mayor of the city chose that to use as a monument for foot soldiers. He chose that picture to be used. We are very proud of it and I hope you will be too. And, now that we know who you are, we can add a name under 00:20:00there. That you were the young boy that the sculpture used.

GADSDEN: Well, I'm still wondering why after all the information that I had given and all that -- all that does is establish me as a young African boy, which I'm not.

HENDRICKS: You would prefer being called a Negro?

GADSDEN: I prefer being called what I am -- Colored.

HENDRICKS: Oh, you prefer the word "Colored?"

GADSDEN: I am.

HENDRICKS: Okay.

GADSDEN: You see the main thing, the main complaint that I had with the Negro and the Black race is that anytime anyone says 'Colored' there's that old racial air of, 'if you ain't bright enough, you ain't White enough, you ain't Colored.'

HENDRICKS: So that is your wish?

GADSDEN: Colored is mixed race.

HENDRICKS: Is there anything else you feel like you want to talk about in a personal manner or anything else that you would like to say before we end this interview?

GADSDEN: No. There are many things that I could talk about that make me, that I think about all of this, but that would take too much time. It would take a day or two to really converse and I don't have time to converse and I don't think 00:22:00you do either.

HENDRICKS: Yes, you have a plane to catch at 8:25?

GADSDEN: Right.

HENDRICKS: Okay. Well, it's been a pleasure having you here. I'm very grateful to the fact that we could find you and hope that you will come back to the Civil Rights Institute and come back to the park. And, since you're in the photography business now, you need to come back and get some shots of that after we put your name on there.

GADSDEN: I think I will, but the photography business that I'm in is rather rough and difficult as a matter of subject material and I'm selling. If I were working with some company, it would be different, but I freelance, so wherever I can sell, whatever I can sell is what I have to do. That's why I drive a truck, 00:23:00also. That's the only way to make sure money. That's the only way to earn a living at. But, although I've studied, I've become very good at it. Oh, there's that racial attitude, too, that "if you're not White, you've got less of a chance." And, that's me. I've got less of a chance than anything.

HENDRICKS: It's been a pleasure and we hope you come back to see us. Again, thank you for the interview.

GADSDEN: Fine.