Rosa Washington

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Rosa P. Washington for the Oral History 00:01:00Project of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. Today is April 14, 1995 and we are at Miles College. Thank you Mrs. Washington for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit and talk with us today.

WASHINGTON: Thank you. It's a privilege and blessing to do so.

HUNTLEY: Yes ma'am. I just want to start by just getting a little background information.

Tell me, were you born in Birmingham?

WASHINGTON: I was born in a little town called Davenport, Alabama.

HUNTLEY: Davenport. Where is Davenport, Alabama?

WASHINGTON: About 25 miles south of Montgomery. Between Montgomery and...

HUNTLEY: Okay. Were both of your parents from that area of the state?

WASHINGTON: My father was. But my mother was from a little town called Sandy Ridge. Not too far from Greenville, Alabama.

HUNTLEY: Okay. The same direction then?

WASHINGTON: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Okay. Tell me a little about your parents?

WASHINGTON: They were very diligent, hard working people. When they came to Birmingham my daddy rented for a year and said he couldn't get the kind of house he wanted, but he brought the property and built an expensive house with the intention of leaving the south when I started to high school. But his health prevented him from doing that.

HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about their experiences in Davenport. What did he do in Davenport?

WASHINGTON: He was a farmer -- he was a sharecropper farmer and he had three brothers in that area why he hesitated so long to move to Birmingham. Then the youngest brother came to Birmingham and went to work. And he didn't come until I 00:03:00said I wanted to see White men work rather than riding around kicking dirt on them.

HUNTLEY: We are going to get to that one. Let me ask you how many brothers and sisters did you have?

WASHINGTON: One brother; 13 years difference in our ages.

HUNTLEY: Okay. Are you younger or older?

WASHINGTON: Younger.

HUNTLEY: You were younger, okay. Tell me about the education of your parents.

WASHINGTON: My daddy didn't go any further than the third or fourth grade. And my mother went to the fifth.

HUNTLEY: And they were sharecroppers in south Alabama?

WASHINGTON: Right.

HUNTLEY: How long did you stay in Davenport? I know you would eventually come to Birmingham. Why would your parents decide to come to Birmingham at the time that they did?

WASHINGTON: Because my daddy wanted to please me. I told him I didn't want to be on the farm where White men ride around and kick dirt on me.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. How did that happen?

WASHINGTON: I was a child playing in a large cotton basket. My parents were hoeing and the owner of the farm came riding by on his big stallion horse and he rode up beside my basket where I was playing and threw candy in the basket to me. And the horse kicked dirt in the basket on me. I became angry, jumped up and turned the basket upside down and went running down the road calling my daddy. And the man was right behind me on the horse and daddy didn't like that. He said "Why you chasing her?" He said, "She didn't want me to give her candy, she poured it out because the horse kicked dirt in her basket." And I asked daddy, 00:05:00"When are you going to get a job where White folks work and not ride around and kick dirt on me?"

HUNTLEY: So you didn't think that he was doing any work, he was just riding around harassing you?

WASHINGTON: That's right.

HUNTLEY: And what did your mother say in that regard?

WASHINGTON: Well, my mother had always -- had been after him for awhile to leave and come to Birmingham to find work. And when she got up to the area where he was holding me, he locked his arms around me and dropped to his knees. And my mother asked him say, "Why you holding that child like that; and she's screaming and both of you wringing wet with sweat?" And he jumped and looked at her as if she dropped out of space. He didn't know who she was.

And he just took a deep breath and let me go. And when we got home to dinner, he just kept looking at me and cut his eye at her and look at me again and he said "Can you handle the farm at harvesting time? I'm going to Birmingham and look 00:06:00for me a job. I don't intend for my girl child (which was me, he was referring to me) to ask me the question that she asked me today." And she said, "What?" He told her "Why couldn't I get a job where White folks work and not driving around kicking dirt on me?" And she was glad. And she told him "Well, don't worry, just don't worry." But she felt like getting up hugging me to death.

HUNTLEY: As she was ready to leave the farm?

WASHINGTON: Yes. She was ready to leave the farm. And when harvesting time come, he came to Birmingham and was fortunate enough to find a job.

HUNTLEY: What was his first job in Birmingham, do you remember?

WASHINGTON: Working at the ACIPICO plant.

HUNTLEY: And how long did he work at ACIPICO?

WASHINGTON: That was from '20 to '31 when he had a stroke.

HUNTLEY: How old were you when you came to Birmingham to live?

WASHINGTON: Not quite eight.

HUNTLEY: Did you live in ACIPICO at the time?

WASHINGTON: Yes.

HUNTLEY: So what school did you attend?

WASHINGTON: West ACIPICO school.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your school?

WASHINGTON: I thought it was fantastic because we had the school building. It wasn't quite large enough for all the classes and the first through the third went to school in a church that was nearby and when, in the later years, I don't remember exactly what year, but there was a Mr. Walker was there and Mr. -- I can't call the man's name now, but anyway they moved -- he was living in a 00:08:00two-story building and when ACIPICO changed and turned the school over to the public school system, he made those men move out of that building and that building was called a domestic science building.

They taught you table manners, boys how to escort girls in a building and how to put the chair up to the table and let the girl sit down to eat back up to the table. They taught us to make beds, how to keep house really. It was called a domestic science building. And they taught sewing and some shoe repair.

HUNTLEY: So the school was actually owned by ACIPICO initially?

WASHINGTON: Yes, at first.

HUNTLEY: And then they deeded the school to the Birmingham school system? WASHINGTON: Right.

HUNTLEY: What school did you attend after ACIPICO?

WASHINGTON: When I finished ACIPICO I went to Lincoln. I guess you would call it 00:09:00a mid school. I went to Lincoln from the 9th through the 10th grade. And then went to Industrial High.

HUNTLEY: And Industrial High at that time was termed to be the largest high school in the world for Black folk. That is what was suggested.

WASHINGTON: That's right.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Industrial High School?

WASHINGTON: I thought it was great. Professor Parker was the principal of the school and he always stressed, don't soil these uniforms because the girls wore blue and the boys wore khaki until they got into the 12th grade. And after that the girls had to wear white and the men wore dark suits, blue trousers or a blue suit.

HUNTLEY: So you were immaculately dressed?

WASHINGTON: Yes.

HUNTLEY: At Industrial High?

WASHINGTON: Right.

HUNTLEY: I know being in an industrial school there were a number of areas that you could sort of concentrate in. What were some of those areas?

WASHINGTON: There was dressmaking, beauty culture, carpentry, shoe making and tailoring and printing.

HUNTLEY: What area did you concentrate in?

WASHINGTON: I was interested in dramatics and I was trying to take dramatics and I had a let down with the dramatics. I was training for the leading lady part -- every part had two persons to see which one would handle it the best. And I was 00:11:00given the part and I was -- Oh, I was so proud the leading lady -- "The mistress" as it was called. And I would perform before my family, friends on the school grounds.

My friends and they would say "Rosy, you got it, you got it." And Edna Elliot had the -- we had the same part and when I -- we would practice and the teacher said I had done well. Then Edna come up, Edna didn't remember her lines in some instances and said that she wasn't putting enough action in it. And when it was over, Mrs. Wyatt told me, "Rosa you performed beautifully, and I admire the way you have learned and studied. But this part is for a White mistress and you are too dark for that part, I'll give it to Edna."

HUNTLEY: So you lost your part as a result of being too dark?

WASHINGTON: And I didn't -- kids now would have thrown a fit on her but I didn't. I picked up my books and I was like that trying to keep from crying and going across the campus to another classroom and I met Mrs. Mahalia Morris and she was very dark. She taught math and she called me 'ACIPICO Skinny' because I didn't weigh 90 pounds. And she said "ACIPICO Skinny, what's wrong with you. You act like you're about to explode?" I said, "I'm all right." And she stopped me, she said "No, you're not. What is wrong?"

Then I burst out and went to crying and told her what had been said to me. She said "Don't let nobody put you down. Dry your tears." She took her handkerchief and wiped my tears. She said "Get right in here, get something up here and tell the world to go to hell." She said "Nobody -- everybody knows I know this book 00:13:00that I carry." She was teaching math and algebra. And she said "I found an error in this book that the company had to recall when I sent it to them. And I got big bucks for it. And I defy anybody to do more with the teaching of these subjects than I can." And said "That's what you do. Don't get hurt about your color, God made us all."

HUNTLEY: How did that experience impact you in your life?

WASHINGTON: For awhile, while I was in school and as a youngster I felt put down because for years the lighter people tried to put the darker skin aside. And at that time Parker had more light teachers, light complexion teachers, fair skin 00:14:00than they did darker teachers because they said that's what Professor Parker stressed.

HUNTLEY: Were there any other examples of this division based on color at Parker? Were there other kids that were impacted upon in the same way?

WASHINGTON: Yeah. Some said they felt it, too.

HUNTLEY: What about your majorettes and your various teams? Did they mirror that kind of mentality?

WASHINGTON: Somewhat, yes they did. But if you were really good, they had to acknowledge it.

HUNTLEY: What grade were you in when that took place? Do you remember?

WASHINGTON: I think it's about the 11th grade.

HUNTLEY: At that time were you living in ACIPICO?

WASHINGTON: Yes, I was.

HUNTLEY: Can you describe your community? What was ACIPICO like?

WASHINGTON: It was the common hardworking people and most of it was rental property. There was some few homeowners on 26th Avenue and further up. But the area where I lived, the alley divided my area from -- separated the White after you passed 29th Avenue or 28th Alley, they were all White.

HUNTLEY: So most of the people that lived there worked for ACIPICO?

WASHINGTON: Yes, quite a few.

HUNTLEY: Were there other occupations that people had in that area? Do you remember?

WASHINGTON: No. Some worked at Dickie Clay plant and some worked at Ensley plant. There were a few who had taken less training -- one or two were in that area.

HUNTLEY: Did your mother work outside of the home?

WASHINGTON: No, she didn't.

HUNTLEY: What was your communities relationship to the Birmingham Police Department?

WASHINGTON: Oh, wow! Whenever they would come in the neighborhood, if it was next door, you could hear them banging if you were in your bed because they always knocked so severely, so hard. I had been told by some young men that they would just see them on the street and call them to the car. And when they get there they would roll the window and ask them some questions and roll it up where they couldn't get their head out and beat them on the head.

HUNTLEY: After you finished Industrial High School, what did you do?

WASHINGTON: I worked at and trying to get ready, try to save some money to go to college because my father had had a stroke and he couldn't send me. I met this young man, come down to visit his father from Pittsburgh, and we fell in love. 00:17:00And he told me if "I would marry him.. I told him I wanted to go to college. "Well, if you marry me, I'll take you back to Pittsburgh and send you to Penn State." But, after we were married, he took me up to Penn State nearly every Sunday or Saturday or whatever they had up there for entertainment and he'd take me up there. And I told him "I'm tired of going up sightseeing, I want to go in." He said "Well, when I can get a better job I'll send you." And the second year he was there, he contracted tuberculosis and I didn't get to go to college. At five years of our marriage, he passed and I moved back to Birmingham. My father had passed, my brother had a tragedy in the family and the mother died.

The children's mother -- he had five children and I was left to take care of the children. I was home a year and a month and lost my mother in death and I was 00:18:00crushed because so many tragic things had happened in my life. And I went to work. My mother was on welfare and I had to report her death and when I reported it she was only getting $25 dollars a month and they asked me was I working. I said "Yes." "How much do you earn?" I said "Seven dollars a week."

"Well, that's more than allowed for a family your size." So they cut me off.

I said "I'm just keeping my brothers children, they are not my children." They said, "But you are and you were...we'll have to cut you off and you support the children." And that was rough. Six people to be taken care of.

HUNTLEY: On seven dollars a week?

WASHINGTON: Seven dollars a week.

HUNTLEY: Where were you working at the time?

WASHINGTON: I was working at Newberry's.

HUNTLEY: What did you do at Newberry's?

WASHINGTON: I was a maid at Newberry's. There was a dress shop there then. And I worked there and on Monday and Thursday I had to work at the manager's house. And when I worked, they would go party and come in at 1:00 and 2:00 o'clock and take me home and I was expected to be at work at the same time at the store as usual. So when the maid quit, she kept trying to get me to work in the house and I told her I had a responsibility that I couldn't do that.

I didn't tell her what it was and she kept having me washing back and forth. And she told me that I -- that they let me work at their home when the maid quit and I told her that I couldn't stay as late as I did then. And I asked for more 00:20:00money and she said she couldn't pay any more money because when I worked there, I got three meals a day. Wherein if I was at the store, I had to pay for my lunch and eat my breakfast at home and bring my lunch. So giving me three meals would supply the income. And, they kept working me like that and a friend of the family moved from the farm and I carried her on the job and they made it.

She kept her and I kept going and work on Monday and Thursday. So one morning when I got there I was making my breakfast and I told her that I couldn't get there at seven because of my responsibility. I would come at the same time I went to the store and she asked me, after the woman was there about a couple of months. She said "Rosa, why is it that Mamie has to be here at 7:00 o'clock to 00:21:00get Manny's breakfast to get him off to work and you come in and she has had her breakfast. You show up at 9:00 and you making your breakfast?" I said "I beg your pardon?" I understood her but I wanted to see. And she said -- she repeated it. I said "Well, these were your plans. You told me you couldn't pay any more money and three meals would be a supplement of my salary." "Don't stand there and do your proper talking and bucking your big eyes at me.

You got to work with them five youngin's you got there." I said "if you can show me God Almighty's hand writing on the wall, telling me I got to work for a poor ass Jew like you, I'll be here to hell freeze over." And she said something else snazzy to me and I reached for her. I forgot I had put the clothes on soak on a bar stool -- she did not have a washing machine. And I reached for her and water 00:22:00and clothes went all over the place and the girl that was working she said, "Don't you do that, what's the matter with you?" I said "Take your hands off of me. If you hadn't flapped your lips, she wouldn't know what to say to me. Let me get out of here."

And I grabbed my work clothes and made a dash for the door. And she said "You needn't show up at the store." I said "Who want to show up at the store? I'm sick of you Jews." And I left. And I had people, I had seventy-five cents between me, heaven, hell and the poor house. And I had to use a dime of that to get to home. When I got to town I used a nickel to call my date and tell him that I could go see Duke Ellington. He was coming to town. And he said, "Well, child let me go get my tickets because after 10:00 the tickets go up." And I went home.

HUNTLEY: And you went to see Duke Ellington?

WASHINGTON: I went to see Duke Ellington. And when I waken the next morning I 00:23:00said, "My gosh, it's Thursday and I'd rather wait until the first of the week and go see about a job." So I got the kids their breakfast and I went back to bed. About 11:00 o'clock my best friend through the years came. She said "Girl, what in the world is wrong with you? I called the store and they say you weren't there. I called the house and the woman almost hung up in my face telling me you weren't there." And I told her what had happened. She said "Well, God bless you. The Lord takes care of fools and babies. With this heavy responsibility you have, you have walked off of your job. And Mr. Townsend has observed you." She was off a half an hour for lunch and I had an hour for lunch and I would walk up there and visit with her on her lunch period.

HUNTLEY: So Mr. Townsend was her boss?

WASHINGTON: Yes. And he said "I admire that girlfriend of yours that comes here. She does not wrestle and tussle and chase the porters. She just stands around and wait until you can talk to her and she is very courteous and polite." Because he told me one day, "You keep hanging around here, I'm going to put you to work and not give you a dime." I said "Well, we'll see about that."

And he told her to come get me and see if I would work. I left -- got to the station at 11:00 o'clock and they sent me to Dr. Thuss for a physical and he didn't show up until 4:30 to give me an exam, and he told his nurse this has been one hectic day. I am so tired and started to pull of his coat. She said "Don't undress yet. Greyhound has someone here." He say "What's wrong with him." She said "It's not a he." And he said "Come here Catherine." That was my friend's name. And he said "No, she's not Catherine, her name is Rosa and I 00:25:00don't know anything about Rosa."

And so when I walked in, she told him I was to be there for my physical for them to hire me. He said "Stick out your tongue," and put that paddle in there and had me say "ah" and he took my pulse. And he said "Do you have a hernia?" I said, "No." "Do you have hemorrhoids?" I said "No." He wrote me out the statement that I was hired. He said "You go on, if they don't hire you, I will, come back here."

HUNTLEY: So did they hire you?

WASHINGTON: Yes, they hired me.

HUNTLEY: And how long were you there?

WASHINGTON: Working at Greyhound?

HUNTLEY: Yes.

WASHINGTON: Thirty-seven years and four months.

HUNTLEY: Thirty-seven and four. So they must have been pleased with your work?

WASHINGTON: They were. Sometimes they jumped my gun and I -- I am an outspoken person if you push me too far.

HUNTLEY: Give me an example of them "jumping your gun."

WASHINGTON: We had a mop pail that you had to push down on the lever and pull up on the mop to wring the mop and it had been broken for about three months and the manager kept promising and promising. So the thing popped loose and hit me on my leg and it was so painful. And, as dark as I am it was just fire red but it didn't break the skin. I went in the office and I told him, "Mr. Drennan, look at my leg, what are you going to do, wait until that scrub bucket injure us. We been tying it with a rope and string and whatever and I don't want my leg broken."

"Oh, I just forgot." I said "Well if you give me the money, I'll walk down to Wimbley & Thomas' and get a mop bucket." So he gave me a twenty dollar bill and I walked down to Wimbley & Thomas on Morris Avenue and 20th Street and got the bucket. But I was too Black and proud to walk that far carrying that heavy 00:27:00bucket. I used a dime for trolley fare. When I got back I gave him the receipt for the bucket and counted out the change and I told him I used a dime for transportation. "What are you talking about, I didn't authorize you for transportation.

That's the company's money." I said "Well, I'll tell the company that you didn't give us supplies and I had to go get it and I think I'm entitled to transportation." "You going to give me my dime." And I turned and walked off. It was so often he would ask me, he would see me working -- give him his dime. And I would just look at him, smile and walk off. So I was cleaning the White lobby, sweeping in the lobby and a White woman's baby was soiled and she asked me to get her some wet paper towels or whatever to clean the baby. When I brought her the soap, wet towels and some dry ones, to clean her baby, she gave me two dimes 00:28:00and a nickel -- tipping me. And I thanked her. He was standing about as far off as that and he called me.

He said "Rosa, come here." When I walked over to him he said, "I saw that woman give you two dimes and a nickel. Now give me my dime." I said "I don't have your dime." He said "Give me my dime. You owe me a dime where you took out for trolley fare." I said "I couldn't afford to walk six blocks carrying that heavy bucket and that's why I used the dime." "Well, what are you talking about? There are hundreds of colored women who would be glad to walk not only six blocks but six miles for the salary you're making." I jabbed that broom handle in his chest. I said "Well, the first one that comes along, tell her to start sweeping." He handed it back to me and got that -- "You better get this floor 00:29:00swept." So I went on and swept the floors.

HUNTLEY: So he didn't bother you about the dime any longer?

WASHINGTON: And when I finished sweeping I went in to check the ladies lounge. The cashier, the owner of the restaurant, she came dashing in behind me. She said "You better be glad that Mr. Owens is a kindhearted gentleman. A many boss would have fired you with your sassy talk." I said "If I was slinging hash for you, I guess you would have fired me? Before I let anybody drag me down I would crawl the street on my hands and knees and pick peanuts out of elephant droppings." She said "Well, Miss Rosa, well, Miss Rosa." I said, "Thank you." And I went on about my business.

HUNTLEY: She said "Well, Miss Rosa?"

WASHINGTON: And for the life of her stay there, she referred to me as Miss Rosa.

HUNTLEY: Was that unusual for a White woman to say Miss to a Black woman?

WASHINGTON: That's right. And a further incident. The Traveler's Aid booth was 00:30:00in the lobby and one day she called me to her and said "Rosa, I want to ask you something. You're intelligent and I like to talk with you. Which of your people do you have the most respect for." I said, "What you say?" "Which of your people do you have the most respect for, the lighter skin or the darker skin?" I said "Be they White, Black, mulatto, Indian, Sioux or Crow, the people that do most for humanity are the people that we look up to." "Thank you, Miss Rosa." And I was Miss Rosa to her from then on.

HUNTLEY: So you would not back off any of them, right? You didn't take anything from anyone?

WASHINGTON: Because my father always told me "Whoever you're talking to or whoever is talking to you, look them in the eye. Don't get an itch somewhere or 00:31:00some dirt on your foot and squirming and looking off. Look them in the eye."

HUNTLEY: What were your responsibilities there.

HUNTLEY: I was a maid. I was supposed to take care of the White and Colored waiting rooms. I was supposed to keep the baggage room swept, ticket office swept and take care of the Black waiting room. And the White waiting room they had about six toilets, two wash rooms. Two of them were washrooms where you paid a quarter to go in and you could stay and get washed up in a face bowl. The others there was a face bowl out for all the public. In the colored waiting room, as it was called then, there were seats -- benches with dividers in them.

And there was a window I'd say about with an opening about two feet square opening. And when there were two armed chairs there, if you ordered food, you 00:32:00ring a bell for food and they would bring the food to the Black passengers and they would sit there and eat. If they were -- if more people ordered they would have to sit on those benches and there was one ticket window exposed to the Black area. There were 3 or 4, I think, on the White side.

HUNTLEY: Now, in this period we are talking is a totally segregated society. How did that manifest itself in the bus station?

WASHINGTON: There were separate waiting rooms and separate bathrooms, restrooms. And the ticket window faced -- the larger part of it faced the White lobby and this one window would serve the Blacks. And the agents sometimes would just 00:33:00stand there and wait on all that was in the front and not take turns and turn around and wait on those in the window.

HUNTLEY: What community did you live in at that time?

WASHINGTON: At that time I was living in ACIPICO.

HUNTLEY: You're still living in ACIPICO. Did you move from ACIPICO to another community?

WASHINGTON: I moved in '61.

HUNTLEY: To what community?

WASHINGTON: Where I am now, on Enon Ridge.

HUNTLEY: And your community, was it an active community? Did you have community organizations?

WASHINGTON: No.

HUNTLEY: You did not have any?

WASHINGTON: No.

HUNTLEY: Were you ever a member of the NAACP? WASHINGTON: Yes, I joined the NAACP through my church.

HUNTLEY: Okay. What church were you a member of?

WASHINGTON: Thurgood CME Church on the corner of Center Street and 6th Avenue.

HUNTLEY: Were you a registered voter?

WASHINGTON: Yes. When they allowed us to vote, I registered to vote.

HUNTLEY: Can you tell me when did you register to vote and do you remember any incident that took place? Was it very difficult to register to vote? Was it a simple process?

WASHINGTON: It was a simple process. We were eligible to vote and we had to go up and register to vote and have questions asked about different political areas.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever attend any of the mass meetings of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights? Any of the mass meetings when Dr. King was in town? Or when Shuttlesworth was speaking?

WASHINGTON: Yes. Dr. King preached a couple of sermons there at the AOH Church of God that was located on 7th Avenue and 18th Street at that time.

HUNTLEY: At the time that you were working at the bus station, in 1961 there was 00:35:00a group of students from the north that came and they were called Freedom Riders.

WASHINGTON: Right.

HUNTLEY: Were you working the day that they came in? Did you witness what happened as a result of them coming into Birmingham?

WASHINGTON: I was sweeping what they called the White waiting room then, facing 19th Street. The entrance to the Black waiting room was facing the back and I was sweeping. And I was nervous and tense because I had heard that they were coming and it was Mother's Day. When I heard the doors -- there were two front entrances. One would let you out and one was supposed to come in. But they both opened at the same time -- they would make a "sss" sound and when I looked around those Black youth were coming in. Some went in the dining room, some went 00:36:00in the mens room, four went in the ladies room. And when they went in there, the White women rushed out as if a wild animal had come in there. And it was just a trauma.

And when the news got back to the manager of the restaurant, he came running in and just like that door is there, there was a window to the baggage room and on each side was a water fountain. He ran, oh, I'd say about ten feet passed it, clapped his finger and whirled around and yanked the wiring out of the wall from the fountain so there would be no cool water. And that brought a lump to my throat because that meant no cool water for White or Black. Then he rushed down to the restaurant and when he got there the Blacks were in there, he tried to get them out.

And he had a worker stand at the door and not let anymore in and those that were 00:37:00in there were trying to order food. He demanded that the workers remove the food from the steam table and leave menus out for the Whites. That brought tears because Black and White hands prepared the food, Black and White hands were removing the food. Yet, Black and White could not sit in the same room and eat the food.

HUNTLEY: Were there both Black and White students that came in on the buses or was it just Black?

WASHINGTON: I didn't see anything but Black, but somebody told me there was some Whites with them.

HUNTLEY: This same day there were those -- there were some that were attacked? WASHINGTON: Right.

HUNTLEY: Did you witness any of the attacks?

WASHINGTON: No I did not. Because the bus was set afire in Anniston and Bull Conner, the commissioner form of government we had, he was the commissioner and 00:38:00the news was broadcasting about the Freedom Riders coming and he went to the city limit line and waited for it. When they got there he boarded -- flagged the bus, and boarded the bus and told them not to come into Birmingham -- they weren't wanted here. And they told him they would be back.

He had a regiment of policemen with him. But they turned around and said they would come back. And then Bull Conner brought his regiment to the bus station. They were out on the loading zone where the buses come in. And they were cursing and saying ugly things about what was going to happen when the damn niggers get here. And I was tense and afraid because you don't know who's mean enough to throw a bomb in there and get me. And I waited and very nervously -- the four girls that went into the restroom, the Whites came out like they were scared to death.

And this, one little White woman, she sat near the door where she could see the track and get to the restroom before the time for her to get on the bus. And she looked up, she said, "Well, here's them damn niggers." She rushed into the lounge and I tried to console her -- I stepped forward to console her and she let me know she didn't want to be bothered. And those kids were there. When I left, I worked a relief shift. I left at 3:30. I hung around a little longer, but my shift was over at 3:30 and I had to be back the next morning at 7:00 o'clock.

When I got back at 7:00 o'clock those kids were still there. And I was so nervous I didn't rest well. I brought my breakfast and my lunch. When I went into the ladies lounge to clean in there, three girls were in there gagging, perspiring and have crying and I told them "Have you had any food?" They said 00:40:00"No ma'am." I said "Well, I brought my lunch and my breakfast, I'll share it with you or I'll get permission to go to the A&P up on the corner and get you some food or some juice." They both stepped forward and looked me in the eye. "No, ma'am. Thank you. We will not accept your food. We are dedicated to a change. And if you give us food, you're helping to defeat our cause." The four of us locked arms and cried.

HUNTLEY: So they would not accept the food?

WASHINGTON: No. And about 9:00, 10:00 o'clock somewhere along that time a big, burly, heavy set policeman with a K-9 on leash and his billy stick and cuff links jingling on his hip. A well dressed tall man was with him. And I believed 00:41:00him to be a detective and they passed me and just before they got out of ear shot from me, he said "Tell me ... I hear tell one of these little niggers going to pray this morning.

I want to hear what he is going tell God when I turn this dog loose on his Black ass." That brought a shudder. I just started spot sweeping and running, trying to hear what was going to be said or done. A little bit after they got out there, a young Black man, I wish I knew who he was, stepped up on the float, that's a wagon that push the luggage, locked his hands behind his back and raised his face towards heaven and he prayed. I don't remember all of his prayer, but this he said "Dear God, we keep their houses, we take care of their children, we prepare their food, please God, tell these pharaoh's to let your 00:42:00people go. All we want is a place to choose our place to sit down."

HUNTLEY: And that touched you?

WASHINGTON: That touched me and touched him too. A little bit later he came through there, both of them had a stern look on their face, the two that had just passed through. And the fat one was dabbing eyes. I can't swear it was tears, but he was patting his face as if there were tears.

HUNTLEY: So what happened to those individuals, those young people?

WASHINGTON: They were there until later on in the evening because I was off at 3:00. But later on Attorney General, Robert Kennedy, called and told them to get them out of there to Montgomery where they were traveling.

HUNTLEY: Who did Kennedy call?

WASHINGTON: He called Mr. Hunt and Mr. Owens. G. J. Owens. I don't remember 00:43:00Hunt's name. But whoever the officials were, they got the call.

HUNTLEY: How did you know that they had gotten the call?

WASHINGTON: I was told that they got a call.

HUNTLEY: So the word was circulating throughout the facility?

WASHINGTON: That Kennedy had called. Attorney General Kennedy had called and told them to get them on their way and a bus driver, Joe Cabinero took them to Montgomery. And, I was told that the policemen escorted them out of the city to the city limit.

HUNTLEY: Did you get any more actively involved in the Movement after you witnessed this at the bus station?

WASHINGTON: No. My working hours didn't allow me to, you know, get in the parade or walk. But I did walk down to Booker T. Washington's school on my lunch break 00:44:00and I saw them when they turned the hose on. They had to have the fire hose connected to spray the kids with that force of water, but didn't no water come out.

HUNTLEY: No water came out?

WASHINGTON: No.

HUNTLEY: But you witnessed the attempt from the fire department to use the hoses on the marchers?

WASHINGTON: Right.

HUNTLEY: Was this when the children were marching?

WASHINGTON: Right.

HUNTLEY: What was your reaction to seeing this event?

WASHINGTON: It couldn't help but bring tears to my eyes. I was saddened and almost afraid to walk the street alone. Because some Whites were arrogant toward all Blacks. But the change come and Mr. Herman Hardy, he was a porter, they got him into being assistant manager in Greyhound. And in '63 -- up until the 00:45:00Freedom Riders, everybody was classified as porters, maids and cleaners were Class "B" employees. Ticket agents, baggage agents, express agents, office personnel were White.

HUNTLEY: Did that change as a result of the Freedom Riders?

WASHINGTON: Yes it did. Because Mr. Herman Hardy was made assistant supervisor and then to get into the higher job classification they had a question and answer elimination program and I tried to get my best friend who got me the job to take the test and she was leery about taking it and she got sick and I told 00:46:00her I was off and I would come to see her and she asked me to stop at the terminal and get her a sick claim.

While I was in there, it hit me like a thunderbolt when I turned around and I saw the manager. I asked him if I could take the test. He said "Well, Miss Rosa you're older now." I said "Both of us are ten minutes older than I was when we walked in here." He said some more remarks. I said "Are you telling me you're not going to allow me to take the test?" He said "No, I didn't say that." And the secretary was a racist. She was just bowing and looking and cutting her eyes at me and him. So I had learned that 3 or 4 porters had took the test and they failed.

The manager told them that they had failed. I said "You're not going to let me..." "Yes, you can get it." So when I took the test, he said "Well, what time 00:47:00do you come to work." I said, "I'm off today." "Well, I'll have it graded when you come back." I said "I'm off today and I can stay here until you get time to do it."

So he just kind of chuckled and he...is going to be kind of hard.

HUNTLEY: You said passing was 64 and what did you make on the test? WASHINGTON: Sixty-nine.

HUNTLEY: You made 69?

WASHINGTON: Yes. He said "Well, you're not like the porters. They have been exposed to it because they have to handle the baggage and that kind of thing." I said "Are you still telling me you're not going to let me try?"

HUNTLEY: What job were you?

WASHINGTON: I was a maid. And I was going to information.

HUNTLEY: Okay. Information, was that previously a White job?

WASHINGTON: All White.

HUNTLEY: Okay. And then what happened?

WASHINGTON: Well, I passed it.

HUNTLEY: Did you get the job?

WASHINGTON: At first they had a bus driver who had -- his health had stopped him from driving buses and he was in the baggage room. And when he learned that I had passed and the shift was posted, he started watching me. If I went out to the dumpster, he'd run and peep to see where I went. If I went to go around to the colored waiting room, he was peeping to see where I was. So, I discovered he was watching me and some of the other fellows say, "He's watching you, he's watching you." So I started out and he saw me going and he didn't see me. He ran back and looked and he didn't see me. I hid down in a telephone booth. And he came to the window peeping and while he was peeping at the window, a customer came up, a shipper.

And he started writing a shipper up and it was 3 minutes to 4:00. You had to sign it before 4:00 o'clock. I signed and he saw me -- he come running back there. "You needn't be signing them, you needn't be signing. I'm too old to work back here. I'm tired of lifting all this mess. I'm going into information, you're not going in there." I said "That's your privilege." And I turned and walked off. But God took care of that. He wasn't in there two months before he called him in. And I went in there.

HUNTLEY: So you would eventually get the position that you had --

WASHINGTON: Yes. But at first I went in the baggage room. I took that shift. But when the luggage was too heavy or packages from the waiting room -- the window that was exposed to the White waiting room. The men would tell them to come around, come inside the baggage room. But when I started, they told me I couldn't do it. I had to lift it. And they disqualified me on those grounds.

HUNTLEY: That you couldn't lift?

WASHINGTON: Lift the luggage like I should. So, after he left the shift was open. My vacation was coming up in about two weeks or three. They let somebody work double until I went on my vacation. When I come back one of the men had passed -- one of the porters. And he was in there. And I come back I asked "How did he get in there and I had more seniority?" And they told me blah, blah, blah. Well, anyway, I went to the union representative. He told me "Well, when Wednesday comes you just go on in there. You're qualified." And when I went in there, this guy was named Johnny Green.

He was sitting in there and the supervisor's monitoring us and heard the two voices, so they called Johnny out and one ticket agent would help me some time. 00:51:00The woman that worked in there would meet me every morning for me to share my breakfast with her. She sat with her back to me and was so hostile and ugly to me. And I was trying and they wouldn't let me take a manual home where I could study with it. And one night I was seeing a relative off and I was carrying her luggage and Mr. Jim Nalley who was a very liberal man, he saw me. He said "Rosa, you all, where you going?" And I told him. He said "Well, I want you to come into the office before you leave." Dispatcher's office. When I went in, he said, "I hear that they are thinking about disqualifying you, but if anybody can do it, I know you can.

You have the pleasant voice and you read, you can see and they did not treat you right. They gave you two days training and give everybody else two weeks 00:52:00training and I'm going to have you know what you're doing when you leave here tonight." I stayed from -- and he told my husband. "You can sit down over there or you can go back to your car and lay down. But when Rosa goes out of here, she is going to know how to find her routings." He kept me in there from 9:15 until he was off at 12:00 o'clock. The next morning I was off and my husband woke me up. He had prepared breakfast and he told me, I said "Oh, you so smart, you fixing breakfast and it's not Saturday morning." He had always made breakfast Saturday.

He said "Yes, if God put Mr. Nalley into your life to strengthen you to keep your job, I'm your husband, I'm going to stick closer than he did. You're not going to do anything today but eat, sleep and stay with that book." Mr. Nalley gave me a discarded manual -- what they called Russell Guide and told me how to 00:53:00use it. When I went back to work the next day, this woman that had been sitting with her back to me said "Huh, what happened to you? What kind of smartie pills you been taking?" I said, "I took the Lord in prayer and he sent me a friend."

HUNTLEY: So you then retained that job?

WASHINGTON: I retained that job for fourteen years and four months.

HUNTLEY: And that's where you retired from?

WASHINGTON: That's where I retired from.

HUNTLEY: It's been really a pleasure sitting and talking with you today because you have really given -- you have educated us.

WASHINGTON: Thank you.

HUNTLEY: I certainly appreciate that because, as I said earlier, what we are doing; we hope to eventually write what we determine to be the real history of Birmingham. The only way that we can write that history is to get it from people like yourself.

Thank you again for coming out.

WASHINGTON: And the blessed part of it when I retired, they said I could choose 00:54:00any place in the city I wanted to go to dinner and Mr. Herman Hardy was assistant supervisor. He and his wife would escort me and my husband and I chose "The Club."

HUNTLEY: Oh, so you went to The Club?

WASHINGTON: Went to The Club and I was seated where I could look all over all the city and see the view.

HUNTLEY: What year was that?

WASHINGTON: That I retired? '77, October 17, 1977.

HUNTLEY: Okay. So you have gone to The Club?

WASHINGTON: Went to The Club.

HUNTLEY: And got your reward?

WASHINGTON: Right. That's right.

HUNTLEY: Good. Thank you again for coming out. We certainly appreciate it.

WASHINGTON: I have enjoyed it. Because I said one day -- I was talking to Mr. Hardy yesterday. I told him I was coming. And he told me to -- that he wanted to know how I come out or whatever. And we had one Black there when it was broken down. Before it was broken down I think Robert Peterson wanted to go in the -- after segregation was broken down he wanted to go in the ticket office and they would allow him. He left here and went to Atlanta and they let him hold a office and he got angry ...