Ruby Odom Cotton Interviewed on May 15, 1996

MYLES: This is an interview with Ruby Odom Cotton for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project by Binnie Myles, at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute on May 15, 1996 at 1:00 p.m. How are you Mrs. Cotton?

COTTON: I'm doing fine, how are you?

MYLES: I'm good. I'm good. We want to talk a little bit about your background. Are you from Birmingham or from Alabama?

COTTON: I am from Alabama. I was born in Vredenburgh, Alabama.

MYLES: In where?

COTTON: In Vredenburgh, in a town below Selma, Alabama. I moved to Birmingham when I was six years old.

MYLES: Do you remember anything about Vredenburgh.

COTTON: Right. It's spelled V-R-E-D-E-N-B-U-R-G-H.

MYLES: Where did they get that name? Do you know?

COTTON: Good question. No, I don't know. But there was a family whose last name was Vredenburgh and they named the town after them, but I don't know where it originated from.

MYLES: They probably were rich people, that's why they named it after them. Do 00:01:00you remember anything about that town?

COTTON: Sure, because even after we moved to Birmingham, my grandparents were still in that area and we would go every summer to visit. It was a very small town, a farming town.

MYLES: Were your parents farmers?

COTTON: Yes, they were.

MYLES: So, did you have different types of animals?

COTTON: Right. We mostly had chickens, cows and horses. They grew their own vegetables. And, when we moved to Birmingham my grandparents still had a lot of land so we would go during the summer and help them with the fields and in the garden, help them pick cotton and that kind of thing.

MYLES: You've picked cotton?

COTTON: I picked cotton, yes.

MYLES: Did you like it?

COTTON: It was fun because the cotton you picked they would weigh it and you would get so much money for the amount that you picked. Of course, my problem 00:02:00came in when they stopped at the little store on the way back home. I would go in and spend everything that I earned. So, it wasn't very profitable for me because I was so young. But, for my family, it was. And, I enjoyed it.

MYLES: Do you have brothers and sisters?

COTTON: Yes. I have four brothers. My sister died in '66. I have two brothers that's living here and the other is in Chicago.

MYLES: When you were little and you talked about the cotton and you had chickens and cows, did your chickens lay eggs?

COTTON: Sure.

MYLES: Did you go out there and get the eggs?

COTTON: That was one of the chores that was for me every morning. I had to go out and feed the chickens in the chicken coop and collect the eggs and bring them in the house. We had to do that before we went to school.

MYLES: You must have gotten up real early?

COTTON: Oh, yes, very early.

MYLES: What time did you get up?

COTTON: 4:00 o'clock, 5:00 o'clock, something like that in the mornings. Not only was that my chore, but we had other things to do before we left for school. There were so many chores you did in the morning and so many you did in the afternoon.

MYLES: And you were just a little girl?

COTTON: Exactly. They start you at an early age.

MYLES: Did you milk cows, too?

COTTON: Well, I didn't do that, but I watched my parents and my brothers when they milked the cows.

MYLES: Did you drink the milk?

COTTON: Sure, we drank the milk and we churned and made butter. It's really nice to have the homemade butter. It's so much different than what you buy in the store now.

MYLES: How was the taste different?

COTTON: It's not as much sweetness in it. It's more of a pure taste.

MYLES: What about the milk?

COTTON: The milk, then we had milk that came from the cows and also milk that came from the goat. I didn't particularly like the goat milk, but I did drink 00:04:00the milk from the cows because you had the regular, what we called sweet milk, and, then you had buttermilk.

MYLES: How did you make the buttermilk?

COTTON: Now, that I can hardly remember. I remember them putting it in a churn when they got ready to make the butter and I think the longer you churn it with your hand, up and down, the longer you go, at the end is when you get the butter. I think middle ways through the process they might stop it and that would make it thick and you would have buttermilk from it.

MYLES: Well, what about the goat milk? How did that taste?

COTTON: To me, I never did really like the goat milk. Maybe because to me there was a little odor from the goats. So, you automatically assume that the milk is going to be that way. So, I kind of shied away from it, but it is my 00:05:00understanding that it is very tasty.

MYLES: And you remember that and you're still such a young lady.

COTTON: Well, not too young. I'll celebrate a birthday tomorrow. I'll be 48 years old. But, yes, I guess because we kept going down during the summer, even as a teenager so a lot of that I remember as a child I continued to do as a teenager.

MYLES: What do you recall about community and people? Was it an all-Black community? Did you interface and interact with other cultures or White people when you were down where you lived?

COTTON: No. Basically the area that we lived in was an all-Black area. You had a Black area; you had a White area. The houses were quite a distance apart, so it wasn't like you had an immediate neighbor. You didn't have any phones or anything like that, so when you needed to contact somebody you would either blow 00:06:00the horn on the car, if you had a car, or if someone was passing by on a wagon, you would tell them and the next house they would get to and they would tell them. It kind of traveled that way. Or, sometimes in the afternoon, if you needed something you would holler to the next house and that house would holler to the next house. Eventually you would get the person you needed and that's how they contacted each other. Usually, if it was an emergency or something, if you needed a doctor -- we didn't have doctors that we could go to.

MYLES: "We" meaning Black people?

COTTON: Black people. So, you had a lot of home remedies that our grandparents gave. Now, my grandmother was a midwife, so she had a lot of knowledge on medical things that when we got the little ailments then a lot of things that she knew she would pass on to us to help us out. But, the closest hospital was in Selma, Alabama and it was quite a distance. So, you didn't go to a hospital 00:07:00unless it was a life and death situation.

MYLES: You mentioned the wagons going by. Were these wagons with horses?

COTTON: Right. That's how we got back and forth to the churches. And, for those families who didn't have a wagon, what you would do is you would get dressed in the mornings and you would head out for church and the church was miles away. But, as you walked, someone would come along with a wagon and they would let you ride in the wagon and take you on to church.

MYLES: You talked about talking to people next door, that you just hollered out just like, "Hey, Miss Mary." What did you do?

COTTON: Right. The houses were so far apart, you just had to holler as loud as you possibly could and mostly you would use somebody who had a heavy voice, like my brothers or my father or something like that, if they were available. And, then they would keep hollering until eventually when they think that person hears them, they would holler back and, then once they knew that they had that person's attention, then they would tell them what they want. Because sometimes 00:08:00if you holler, the person might be in the house and they don't hear you. So, you keep calling the name like, "Mary, Mary." And, eventually Mary will answer. Then you would tell her what you want. Of course, if you didn't want Mary, if you wanted the person who lived down the road from Mary, then Mary would keep hollering to them until they get the message and that's how you sent your messages back and forth.

And, then a lot of times, sometimes you see in the African movies you see where they played the drums and made sounds. Well, they had these old tin tubs and sometimes if you hollered and couldn't get anyone's attention, you beat on the tub. And, then that would get their attention. If they hear you, then they would beat back and, then you holler and tell them what you want. But, I know it sounds kind of wild now, but back then if you didn't have telephones, if you didn't have cars to drive over to that person's house, and it's not like the neighborhoods today where you have neighbors immediately in the next block or something like that. It was miles before you would see a house. And, sometimes 00:09:00in the summer, with the trees out, you couldn't even see the house. In the wintertime, when the trees were not in bloom, you could sometimes see the top of the house and, then the voice would carry a little better.

MYLES: So that was a way of life for you and your family, but there was a sense of community?

COTTON: Back then I think that as far as caring, people were closer to each other. They cared more for each other. If you were in need or needed something, people were willing to come to your aid. They do that now, but I think it was more sincere back then. If you got burned out, for instance, everyone would just band together. Before you know it they have built your house back. They've helped you replace all your belongings. If someone got ill, all the neighbors was there to help you to care for that person. And, the children, my parents 00:10:00didn't have to worry about us getting in trouble or anything because everybody looked out for each other. Even after we came to Birmingham, your neighbors looked out for you. My parents worked. They didn't have to worry about a babysitter for us, because our neighbors were babysitters.

MYLES: We're going to talk about Birmingham a little bit in just a moment. Let me ask you this, when you lived there in Dallas County, did you ever see any White people and, if so, what kind of interaction did your family have with them that you can remember?

COTTON: The only time that I really saw the White people was when you go to what you call the commissary. The commissary was the store there that you would go and get your goods that you needed. In the commissary it had everything, some groceries and feed and everything that you would need. So you would go to that 00:11:00part of the little town and you would see a few White people there, but you really didn't see that many, because like policemen, you only had maybe one person who controlled the whole area and you had some plants there where the foremen were White, but with me being so small I never did really have to come in contact with them. I've heard stories that my father told about working in the mill and how he was treated by the Whites.

MYLES: What are some of the things that you recall your dad saying?

COTTON: Well, it's kind of like the way it is now with the Blacks. They got all the hard work and they were paid less. The breaks and stuff they should have gotten, they couldn't get. The hours was unreal. If something happened in the mill and their production wasn't up to par, they would make the Blacks stay and 00:12:00do whatever the quota was for the day. But, then they would let the White people go home. Things like that. And sometime the hours. Although he would work these long hours, the pay didn't justify it. It wasn't like he was getting paid so much per hour. They gave you so much per day. But, in that day it might run anywhere from 8 hours to 15 hours and you get the same amount of money. And, that sometimes back then there weren't anything like promotions -- if you do a good job you could move up. It wasn't anything like that. And, as far as eating, they had their little area that they had to eat in and White people had their little area. The Whites had nice bathrooms and they, of course, had little out houses that they had to go through.

And, most of the area then all they used was out houses anyway, but for some reason, the Whites had gotten bathroom facilities to bring in for them. So, 00:13:00little things like that. It was many years later before all that changed. Of course, when it did change, we had already moved away.

MYLES: So, even then for you as a child remembering back, and by this time it was close to 1948, I mean that's when you lived there and you moved to Birmingham. But, your parents experienced discrimination, that is your father, even then.

COTTON: Oh yes.

MYLES: So, then your family came to Birmingham -- where did you live?

COTTON: In Birmingham we moved on the north side on 22nd Avenue North. It was known as Evergreen Bottom.

MYLES: Do you know why it was called "Evergreen Bottom?" Was it always green over there or something?

COTTON: Well, no there was a church. The church there, when they brought it to that side of town, they named it Evergreen Baptist Church. And, because of that they named the neighborhood Evergreen. But, as kids we called it "The Bottom."

MYLES: Do you know why the kids called it "The Bottom?"

COTTON: I think kind of because the way it's set. It was kind of like part of 00:14:00Evergreen was a little slope, a little hill that went down, and because of that we started calling it the bottom.

MYLES: What was that neighborhood like for you? What do you remember? How different was it from where you came from Dallas County?

COTTON: Well, for one thing, I was amazed because in Dallas County with the houses being so far apart and, then coming to Birmingham where everything was so close together, all the houses and apartments, and, that even the people, the Black people were close, not like Dallas County, but they were caring people. The block up from me were White people. White people lived in that area and it's kind of interesting that we played with the White children that were in the next block. And, it wasn't until I got much older that I really realized about 00:15:00racism, because we went to an all Black school. We walked to school.

We didn't have to worry about a bus. I went to Lewis Elementary School, so we walked there. There were no Whites. And, of course, when I started high school, I went to Carver High School and it was all Black, so it wasn't until then that I realized what the problem was because my parents kind of kept me isolated. I didn't go to town and see all that was going on.

MYLES: So, when you were smaller and you played with your friends that were White in the neighborhood, did you ever wonder why they didn't go to your school? Or do you ever remember your parents saying anything?

COTTON: At the time, no we didn't. We knew that we were zoned. You went to the school that you were zoned in. And, in our minds the ones that lived in the next block was in a different zone than we were -- the reason they didn't go to our school. Of course, I realize that wasn't true, but at the time, that's what you 00:16:00thought. You didn't think anything about it.

MYLES: What about police when you moved to Evergreen Bottom and other White people, did anything ever happen or were there any police or the Klan or anything like that ever in your neighborhood?

COTTON: No, not that I can remember. I just know that sometimes when the cars would drive through that sometime the White police officers would say something harsh or smart to us if we were playing in the street. Back then that was the only area we had to play. We didn't have parks or anything, especially during Christmas time. We would get in the street and skate and stuff like that. Every now and then one would come by and maybe call us names or something of that nature. But, I never experienced seeing them beat up anyone, not in the neighborhood.

MYLES: You said sometimes they would come by in the car. What were some of the things they would say to you kids?

COTTON: Well, you know they would always use the 'n' word, as you put it. "Get out of the street."

MYLES: They would say, "Get out of the street, Nigger" or something like that?

COTTON: Right. Right. Back then you were Nigger anyway. If they just pass by and you're not doing anything, if you're just standing on a corner, just talking with your friends, they might come by and just say, "Nigger, what are you doing? or "Nigger, get off the street." Or something of that nature. We would leave and go in the house until we think they're gone and, then we would go back out.

MYLES: I imagine there were boys and girls playing together?

COTTON: Right.

MYLES: Did your parents ever say anything to any of you like, "Don't sass them. Don't say anything back"? Do you ever recall saying anything to your parents, "Why do they call us this? Why do they do that, we didn't do anything?"

COTTON: Well, yes. Our parents always cautioned us to not say anything back because they realized that would only intimidate them and make them do maybe 00:18:00some harm to us. They always taught us to just walk away. But, yes, as I grew older then they began to sit down and tell me about how things were. If not my parents, my older brothers. We were always taught to not to provoke anything, even if something happened to you. If someone hit you, you turn around and walk away. So, we knew at an early age if they said something ugly that we didn't like, you don't say anything back. You just accepted that and went on your way. And, of course it wasn't a good feeling, but, then you realized they're the ones who had the guns and they're the ones who had the power, and if you tried to provoke them, then you knew what would happen. That, in the end you would be the one who was getting hurt.

And, then, at an early age I realized there was a better way to accomplish something than fighting or being ugly. My family was very religious.

MYLES: Where did you go to church?

COTTON: We went to Evergreen Baptist. I was raised in that church, so it was a given, you always got up and went to Sunday School and church every Sunday. And, in church there was a lot of training for us that kind of help us cope with the pressures of everyday life.

MYLES: We want to talk about high school a bit and some of the things that you got involved with. Your family was religious, you went to church like you said, Sunday School was a given and going to church. That was the way it was and that you learned so much from that, how to cope with things. When you look then as a teenager, and you look at now, what do you see as some of the concerns relative to teens? Do you think they're not in the church enough, or families are not together enough?

COTTON: I think that today the parents let the child make a choice on whether or not they want to attend church. When I was growing up, we didn't have a choice, 00:20:00you go and that's it. And, I think now, as parents, we don't insist that our children attend church every Sunday. It's kind of like you get them up on Sunday morning, "Do you want to go to church?" If they say yes, they go. If they say no, "Okay, you stay home." And I think that because of that a lot of our children is not getting the training that they should get. That the church is willing to offer them. And, I think a lot of the problem with the youth is the parent, and I can say that because I'm a parent myself. I know it's hard to raise children, but, then I try to remember to raise my children the way my parents raised me. I made them go to church and I always said that as children they would be in church. As they become adults, if they don't want to go, that's their choice. But, now since they are adults, they still like church and it has 00:21:00motivated them, and I think that's why their life is better today.

MYLES: When you look at your children and being a mom, I would imagine that you shared with them some of the things that you said to me about picking cotton and the cows and that. What do they say? And, do they really believe it, especially perhaps if they see one of the old movies and say that, "Man, I wouldn't do that, or Mom, you didn't really do that. That happened in the olden days or something." What did they say?

COTTON: It's unbelievable to them. They cannot in their wildest dream imagine some of the things that I've talked to them about that happened to me as a child and in the 60s as a teenager. They can't imagine us riding in the back of the bus. They can't imagine us paying our money at the front door but walking in the back to get on. And all Blacks sat in the back of the bus and, if it got full, you had to get up and give the White person your seat. And, they can't 00:22:00understand if you paid the same amount of money as a White person, why did you have to get up? Why didn't you have a choice when you got on the bus? They can't imagine going into a department store buying an item of clothes and needing to try it on and you can't try it on because of the color of your skin. And, having water fountains saying 'Colored' and 'White' and you wouldn't dare use the one that says 'White'. In their wildest dream they don't think that ever happen. How could we allow it to happen? How could you just sit back and let them do you that way? Because the younger generation now, I don't think they're as non-violent as we were coming up. They're willing to fight back. They're not willing to just turn the other cheek the way we did.

MYLES: When you talk about that, let me interrupt you for just a moment. As a student in high school, when you look back, what did you think or what did you say to your mom and dad when maybe some of the work that they did -- did your 00:23:00mom work outside of the home, by the way?

COTTON: Yes, she did.

MYLES: What kind of work did your mom do?

COTTON: My mother worked "over-the-mountain." She worked in White people's homes, cleaning their homes.

MYLES: Did she work for any particular family that you can recall?

COTTON: Yes, she worked, up until recently with a doctor by the name of Spink, Dr. Spink. She worked for them for years. And, my mother, even when she was sick and couldn't go to work, she would send me in her place to go and clean house.

MYLES: So, you know what it was like?

COTTON: Oh, yes.

MYLES: Do you remember anything that your mom said that you may have said, "Mom, why do you do this? You don't have to go over there? Can't you find something else?" And, also, share with us how that was when you said, "Oh, yes." You could remember. Talk about your day working when your mom was sick.

COTTON: Well, actually I couldn't understand as a child my mother getting up every single morning and she would go to work feeling sick, couldn't hardly make 00:24:00it. And the only time she really stayed home was when she really just couldn't go anymore because my mother suffered with asthma real bad. But, I used to question why did she go and clean up other people's houses. Why couldn't she work in a department store or why couldn't she work at a bank or something of that nature. Of course, back then you didn't find any Blacks working in a bank or even a department store. So, she would just sit down and explain to us that, "They're not ready yet." I couldn't understand what she meant when she said, "They're not ready." But, she knew that she didn't have the training and she felt that was a handicap for her and the only thing she knew how to do was to clean houses. But, she always motivated us that she wanted better for us. "This is what I have to do to take care of you, but I want you to do better for 00:25:00yourself." But, there were times when she just could not go to work to keep from calling in and telling the person she couldn't come, because back then you didn't have sick days. If you didn't go to work, you didn't get paid and we needed the money.

MYLES: How much did she get paid, do you remember?

COTTON: No, I don't. But, it wasn't very much. It was very little. But, I would go in her place and I would clean houses and I would take care of the little White kids until their parents came home. And, I think during that time is when I really realized how the situation was on the bus because up until that point I didn't ride the bus. We had specials going to school.

MYLES: What's a special?

COTTON: A special is a bus just for the school kids to take you to your school. And, of course, we were all Black, so all Blacks were on the bus, so I never really did ride the public bus until I got into high school and started doing volunteer work at the Red Cross and, then going to work in my mom's place.

MYLES: What was the day like when you went over there to clean for your mom? Did you say, "Man, oh man, I'm going to stay in school because I don't want to do this."

COTTON: Exactly. That really motivated me to go on and get my education because it's one thing having to clean your own house, but it's something else to go and clean someone's else, because they just leave everything there because they know they got somebody coming in. So, you find yourself not only mopping floors and washing windows, but cleaning people's bathrooms and sometimes even moping the floor they don't want you to use a mop, they want you to get on your knees and scrub and that kind of thing. And, then sometimes you figure "Well, they're not here, so they don't know how you clean it." But, some of the women didn't work and they were there, and they would watch you. And, then if they had to go shopping or something like that, you had to keep the kids while they were gone, plus get through with your chores. And, then usually you had a deadline to 00:27:00finish. It wasn't like you could go in and say, "Okay, I'm going to work 8 to 5." Usually they give you a time. They tell you, "I want you to do this, this and this and I want you to be through at this time." So, then you couldn't just goof off. But, it was because of that that motivated me to go on and make something better for myself.

MYLES: Did this make you angry because you were there, and you did what your mom had to do?

Not angry with your mom, but the situation, so that when you came home you could appreciate your mother even more, not that you didn't, but the fact that she had to do this, and this is so unfair?

COTTON: In a sense. There was a little anger there, but the family that she worked for the most, the Spinks, they were very nice. They were a very nice family and a caring family so that didn't make it so hard. Myself, as a child, 00:28:00some of the things they expected my mom to do, they really didn't put it on me, but prior to her working for this family, the other families were not as nice as they were, so they expected everything done. They didn't care whether or not you were a child. But, I think because of her connecting with the Spinks, although in a sense I wanted more for my mother, but, it wasn't as bad as some of the other houses could have been.

MYLES: So, you experienced that and, then you experienced seeing that green board on that bus that said, 'Colored to the back' and you had worked all day and you were tired. You get on the bus and, then what happen?

COTTON: You get on the bus, you sit there, going to relax until you get to downtown to change again. And, you're there minding your own business and all of a sudden the bus fills up and you're asked to get up. And, of course back then, 00:29:00when you're young you don't question why, you just get up. You get up and, then you have to stand until you get to town to change another bus. And, if you're lucky, when you change that bus, you can sit down. It depends on what time you get in town because you have all these housewives

going home and if the bus is full, you stand up until you get to your destination. It was just one of those things. As I grew older, I questioned it and I knew it wasn't right. And, at that point, I had become interested in the Movement and I knew we had to do something about it.

MYLES: So, you are a high school student and you attended the meetings because your parents attended. Now, let's talk about when you were a high school student at Carver. You were arrested on two occasions, what happened?

COTTON: The very first time I was arrested I was marching in front of Newberry's 00:30:00because we were protesting the fact that we couldn't sit at the lunch counter. And, we managed to get out of the car, maybe about five minutes and, then we were arrested. So we really didn't get a chance to protest long. The second time I went was when all of us walked off the school ground. That was to me very interesting because my father had sat me down the night before, me and my brother and explained to us that his job had told him that if he participated, or if his family participated in the Movement, that he would be fired.

MYLES: Where did your dad work?

COTTON: He worked for a company called Tractor and Trailer Company. But, my father never did tell me don't you march. So, at that point I had a decision to make whether or not I was going to or whether or not I was not. I definitely didn't want my father to lose his job. But, the more I thought about it, I 00:31:00realized that something better would come later even if he did, that somehow we would make it. So, the next day I decided that I had to do it. If not for me, if I didn't see any benefits from it or my father or my mother, that somebody would later on in the years. So, I was among the first to walk out and it was really a great feeling. Once we started walking and I guess we got about a couple of blocks from school, and we looked back and saw all the children coming behind us. Because at first there was a little hesitation. And, as we started marching from Carver High School then we had cars and parents to come pick us up and, then take us on to 16th Street because they were afraid that the police would come and get us and arrest us before we got downtown.

MYLES: Now, you said that you left school. Did the principal say it was alright, 00:32:00or the teachers? Did they just kind of say, "Well, we can't get involved, because we'll lose our jobs, so we'll just turn our heads?" How did that happen?

COTTON: Well, the class that I was in, my teacher at the given time (Inaudible) gave us a time to walk off the school. She stood up and said, "I have to be excused for a few minutes." And, when I looked at my watch I realized why she was excusing herself, because, right, as a teacher she could not say, "Okay, students it's time now, you all go on and walk off the school." But, when she excused herself then we knew she was giving us permission to leave.

MYLES: Do you remember the teacher's name?

COTTON: Her name was Ms. Bracy. I was in her English class.

MYLES: What was her first name?

COTTON: I don't remember her first name.

MYLES: That took a lot of courage for Mrs. Bracy to do that?

COTTON: It did. And, of course, after she left, and, then of course, everybody was still a little hesitant because with me, I think they kind of looked up to 00:33:00me since I had already gone before, like I was the one who knew what to do. And, then I realized at that point that I had to take a leadership role, and, then once I started walking out and the other classes, for some reason on that day all the doors were opened. So, as we walked down the hallway, the students saw us going by and, then they walked out and just kept going. Before you knew it the crowd just multiplied. Like I said, as we walked off the school ground and got a couple of blocks, then cars picked us up and took us on to 16th Street. But with me, during that time they had the dogs and the fire hoses and all that. Luckily I was already in jail when that happened, so I didn't get the dogs, nor the fire hoses.

MYLES: But, do you think, when you look back that part of the reason that you were such a go- getter and took a leadership role, along with your parents being 00:34:00involved with that, you got a little taste when you went 'over-the-mountain' to work for your mom one day, and, then having to stand up on that bus and just thinking through all of this and saying "Un- un, I'm going to do something." Do you think that also had something to do with you becoming involved?

COTTON: I think so, because the times that I had to go work in my mom's place, that was one thing that motivated me that I needed to do better. Not only that, but as children, we had to work side jobs once we got old enough to get out and ride the bus by ourselves. So, I started out working in private homes myself. On Saturdays, when I'm out of school, and, then I did get a job in a restaurant when I was maybe in the 9th or 10th grade. And, back then they were paying 70 cents an hour. You took your little 70 cents and back then we had to buy our own 00:35:00books and that kind of thing. So anything we could do to help our parents out. But, then when you think about it 70 cents an hour, but you did it.

MYLES: What did you do at the restaurant?

COTTON: I was what they called a "salad girl", I made salads. It was a Chinese restaurant that was over in the Eastwood area.

MYLES: Back then people paid attention to color and skin complexion. Do you think that you got a good job as a 'salad girl' because of your complexion?

COTTON: I think so. It's sad to say that.

MYLES: But you were fair, you were light-skinned and they didn't mind people seeing you, but maybe the others who were darker-skinned, and that's no reflection on you or them, but that's the way the times were.

COTTON: That's true. And, then, even as a child I resented my skin color. I used 00:36:00to eat chocolate and drink Black coffee because I wanted to get darker.

MYLES: Did you think that the coffee would make you Black?

COTTON: Right. For some reason that black coffee would make me Black and the chocolate would make me Black. But the chocolate only broke me out.

MYLES: Was it because you wanted people to like you because some of them didn't. They blamed you for being the color that you were?COTTON: Well, you know it's kind of interesting because in a sense the Whites treated you a little better because of your skin color, not a whole lot, but a little better than the normal, like my brothers for instance because my brothers were darker than I was. But, then as a Black race I got a lot of resentment from them because of my color. So, I was taking it from both sides. And, when I got older I was able to deal with it, but as a child it's hard to deal with it when you're getting it from both sides. Your own race and also from the other side. The Whites treated 00:37:00me a little better, but I didn't want them to. I wanted my whole race to be treated better, not myself.

MYLES: What about your brother, was he involved in the Movement?

COTTON: He was. Well, he didn't go to as many meetings. I got involved in the Movement through my uncle Claude Odom, who was very active in the Movement. And, because of that I went to meetings with him. My brother never did attend any meetings and I was really surprised when he walked off the school grounds. But, when I got to jail that day, I called home with the intention of talking to my brother to tell my brother to tell my parents that I was in jail. But, when I called home my mother answered the phone and I asked to speak to my brother, Willie. And, then she says, "Well, he's in jail. Haven't you seen him?" And, then I realized that he had gone to jail too and that she knew. She said that she knew the night before that I was going and I asked her how my father was and 00:38:00she said that he's fine, he's just worried about you. And I assured them that I would be fine. But, in my mind I'm thinking that I would be in there a couple of days.

MYLES: How long were you in jail?

COTTON: I was in there five long days.

MYLES: How was it, were you scared?

COTTON: Well, see the first time I went, I went to juvenile -- to juvenile court because of my age. So, they had some small children there. We played with the children and it was fine. The second time I went they took us to juvenile just to get us processed. We left juvenile and went to, I don't know if it was city jail or county jail. We went to one of the jails. And, then from there to Fair Park where they housed all of us. And, it wasn't as fun as the first time because as the days went by I knew my parents could not get me out. I knew that from the get-go. But, I thought for a while that maybe the Movement don't know 00:39:00I'm in here because I was among the last that they got out. And, then in my mind I'm thinking, "Well, I've gone before so they think I'm strong enough to stay and handle it." So, toward the fifth day though I was getting a little worried.

MYLES: What was the treatment and the food like?

COTTON: It wasn't good. I think maybe the first day I didn't eat anything. And, then towards the second day, you know we all got together and talked about it and realized that we had to eat something because we had to stay strong. We couldn't get ill in there, but it wasn't the best of food, but it was okay.

MYLES: But that did take a lot of courage on your part to take that stand. When you look back now and you talk to your youngsters and tell them about it, do they say "Really, mom" or "You didn't really do that."

COTTON: Right. It's hard for them to believe. My younger son who is 16 years old 00:40:00now. I was talking about when I went to the jail house and there were so many of us packed into this jail cell. And, for some reason I was the last one to go in. And, they started closing the door before I could get in and the door was beginning to squeeze me so I started hollering and some of the other women and girls started hollering and finally they opened the door so I could get in. But, he asked me, "Well, mom didn't you get hurt?" And I said, "Well, yes, I was sore." He said, "Did they take you to the doctor?" I said, "No, they didn't take me to the doctor." He said, "Well, did you tell them?" I said, "Well, no, because I didn't want them to separate me from the other people. I didn't know what they were going to do to me. So, yes, I was sore a few days, but then you just dealt with it." But other than that, that was the only bad experience I had. It was just at the fair grounds they had so many beds set up there that you 00:41:00had a lot of company and you got a chance to talk about a lot of things and kind of reminisce on what you are going to do with your life and why and that kind of thing.

But, it was an experience and I realize even then at that age, I still say, and I heard a woman say this, that it may not benefit me, but it might benefit my children and my grandchildren and I think that was the kind of motivation that I had.

MYLES: So now you've been to jail, you've realized what this was all about and you've made your contribution in more ways than one, but did you get scared at all? Did you think, "Well, my goodness." And, looking at all the different people that were in jail with you and that many of us have read and we've been told about women being violated in jail, were you afraid? Especially, here's this young girl, light skinned, attractive, "I'm in this jail, are they going to 00:42:00bother me? Is somebody going to take me out and do something to me? Were you afraid of that?

COTTON: Well, actually we got into a group. I was with my next-door neighbor and my cousin. We had gotten together and talked and decided that we wouldn't go anywhere by ourselves. If we went to the bathroom, we went as a group. When it was time to take a shower, we made sure we were in there together, because yes, there were rumors and there were instances where there was fighting, and girls were messing with the other girls. But, it worked out pretty good for us because we stayed together and kind of got a plan together and that kind of helped us.

MYLES: When you look back and talking with your youngsters, and I don't know if you've had an opportunity to visit the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute or not, have you had an opportunity to?

COTTON: Yes, I have.

MYLES: Have you brought your children and looked at it and walked them through 00:43:00and have they looked at it and made comments? Did you have any flashbacks to be so overcome with "Here I am today and that happened then, look where we've come." It must be really hard sometimes.

COTTON: It is, and when I came, the first time I came, I came alone and, as I walked through and looked at the different exhibits I was really amazed and got teary eyed because a lot of it brought back a lot of memories. And, I guess through the years you kind of forget some of the bad things that happened, but it kind of brought back some of the rough moments that were there. And, then, I did bring my children because I wanted them to see and they had a lot of questions, even after talking to them, because I wanted them to know the story. I want them to pass it on to their children and their grandchildren. So, when they came and looked at the exhibit I think it really, really touched home with 00:44:00them. It's like when I was telling them, it's like a story, she's just saying this. But, I think at that point they realized this really happened.

MYLES: And, then, they said, "Well, mom that was really true because that's the real sign and the real bus and whatever, whatever?"

COTTON: Right. And, when they were in school, my two oldest boys, now they're out of high school. But, when they were in high school and they were talking about, especially during February, Black History Month, when they talked about the Civil Rights, they would also get in the conversation, "Because my mother did this. My mother was there." When they read some of the stuff in the history books, it comes to them because of stuff that I've told them about it. But, I think because of that, it's made them better children because when I was marching and, when I was participating in the Movement, I didn't in my wildest dream think that I would have children, and, then they would benefit from some of the things that I went through. Like my oldest son, for instance is on the 00:45:00Birmingham Police Department. And, back then I never would have thought any of my children, or even Blacks would even be on the police department.

And, then, my middle son, he's with the FBI and, they, because of that, they're motivated to help their race to kind of prosper and they reach back and try to help the younger generation and try to let them know that fighting and gangs and drugs is not what it's all about. They try to teach them to have a little compassion and try to unite themselves to make the world better. So, even with that, and they know that because of what I went through is the reason they are where they are today. And, sometimes in sitting down talking to them, and they acknowledge that, it kind of brings tears to my eyes, because in a sense it does. What I did and what a million other people did is to benefit a lot of the 00:46:00people today.

MYLES: What do you think about the Movement? The Movement then and you growing up and knowing about it and being involved, and "The Movement" today?

COTTON: Back then I was very motivated with the Movement and especially with Dr. King.

Whenever he opened his mouth to say anything it was just in awe to me. And one of my fondest memories is as a child, I went to 16th Street and Dr. King was there, and the church was packed.

MYLES: What did you think?

COTTON: People were everywhere. And, somehow, when I got there it was late so I had to stand in the aisle way. And as people came in we had to keep going down the aisle way and I ended up almost to the very front of the church. And they had this Rabbi on stage. And, this Rabbi begged for me to come on stage to sit with him. And, I was just dumbfounded because Dr. King was on the stage. 00:47:00Although he was on the other end, still I'm on stage with Dr. King.

MYLES: Do you remember what age you were then?

COTTON: I was about 14 or 15. And, that in itself was just -- oh, that memory, I would never forget. Today I'm sad to say that I'm not as active in the Movement as I was back then. I can't even remember the last time I've gone to a meeting. But, I think that the ones that are participating in it I still think they're doing a good job.

MYLES: When you look at strides and you are a part of history because of the things that you did as a child and your profession, now you're in banking, did you ever in your wildest dreams think that you, this African-American female would be in the position that you are now?

COTTON: Never, in my wildest dream. Even as I finished high school, I really went to school to be a dental nurse and I left here, went to Chicago. I stayed there working at Spiegel as a proofreader. I never thought I would have gotten that job either. But, a proofreader at Spiegel during the day and, at night I would go to school. After I had gone for a while I realized that wasn't for me, so I dropped out. I came back to Birmingham, but still I didn't think that I would go in banking, because I started out working in department stores as a cashier and that kind of thing. What happened was, my husband was in school at Miles College and they had a recruiter saying they needed more females in banking. They were trying to get the college students to go out and apply. My husband came home and told me about it. I went and they hired me.

MYLES: Let's back up a little bit and, then we're going to go back forward. You went to Booker T. Washington Business College?

COTTON: Briefly.

MYLES: But you did attend?

COTTON: I did attend.

MYLES: So that, in itself that was a time when a lot of Black women really could not go to school and because of the Gastons you had an opportunity even though it was a brief time?

COTTON: Right. Exactly. And, back then my parents could not afford to send me to college so what I did after high school that summer, I worked and earned enough money for my first tuition. I knew that in order to continue I had to work and, then go to school. But, I did go there briefly before I left going to Chicago.

MYLES: How was that for you?

COTTON: It was an experience. I enjoyed the time that I was there.

MYLES: So now you went back to school. You went to Lawson State and UAB?

COTTON: I went to Lawson State and Jefferson State.

MYLES: Oh, Jeff State, I'm sorry.

COTTON: Right.

MYLES: And, you got involved in banking?

COTTON: Right.

MYLES: How has it been for you?

COTTON: It's been okay. I've been in banking now for 20 years. And, at first it was a slow start for me because they didn't particularly promote women, Black women in banking and that was one of the reasons I left the first bank. I had been there ten years and whenever I tried to advance, I was told I was either overqualified or under qualified. I saw others that did make it, of course, they weren't Black, they were White. It's kind of interesting that myself as a Black person would always train the White people that come in on these different jobs, but yet I wasn't qualified to work them.

MYLES: How did that make you feel and the ones that got the positions that you 00:51:00may have been interested in, what kind of educational background or what were there qualifications, versus yours?

COTTON: Well, they mostly was young girls right out of high school. And, there were occasions when they hadn't even finished high school and I guess that's what made it so awful and bad because you knew you had the qualifications and you knew that all you needed was someone to give you a chance and that you could do the job, but because of that I kept telling myself I can do better, I'm going to leave. But, then you never really take the time to go other places, so I was there one day, just minding my own business, the phone rung and it was somebody that I'd worked for at Central Bank when I first started there. They had left the company. He knew of this bank, at the time it was Alabama Federal that needed a savings manager and he said he thought about me because he remembered 00:52:00my attitude and how willing I was to work. So, he asked me to go and put in an application and I did, and they hired me the same day. And, of course I went over and still there was resentment there because I was the first Black manager for that particular bank, and naturally a lot of the Whites that was there felt like they should have gotten the job. And, me being Black I could not handle the responsibilities.

MYLES: So they thought?

COTTON: So they thought. So, it was a challenge because they were to train me and I know that and I knew then that they weren't going to show me everything there was to know about the job.

MYLES: How did that make you feel?

COTTON: It wasn't a good feeling because you go there and you know you have to supervise these people, but they are not willing to listen to what you have to say or they don't want your supervision. So, for me I had to stay there a lot of 00:53:00long hours, reading manuals and learning things that I knew they weren't going to teach me. But, because of that, I think it made me a better person and a better manager because a lot of the stuff I've learned. And, then as a reward, they did give me a plaque for being the best supervisor for that company. And, also my department had an award for the best department.

MYLES: So, did that kind of turn them around?

COTTON: It did. After they got to know me and they knew that I was a fair person, knew that the company didn't hire me just because I was Black. A lot of them felt like they had to get a Black person in there so they just brought me, and I couldn't do the job. I was determined to prove them wrong, but in the end they became one of the best employees.

MYLES: Did any of them ever come back and say, "Well, you know I thought this and I thought that, and I'm sorry."

COTTON: I did.

MYLES: Did they do that?

COTTON: I did. I had a few to come to me and apologize for misjudging me, for not giving me the benefit of the doubt, that a lot of the resentment and feeling they had was from what they were taught by their parents and that once they got to know me, they realized that their parents were wrong. They asked me to forgive them and it was interesting because I really didn't have any ill feelings toward them. You know, I'm being brought up in the church, I just prayed for them and asked the Lord to take away the ill feelings and give me the strength to endure to do the job, and He did.

MYLES: So, it's been rewarding for you now with where you are in the banking industry. When you look at work across the board, when you look at youngsters, some who are very eager to move up and don't want to start at entry level and 00:55:00wherever the job is, what would you say to them?

COTTON: Well, it's kind of interesting because you have a lot of that happening. When I have someone coming in, for instance, to fill out an application or apply for a job that's in my area, immediately they want to start from the top. I have to sit down and tell them that you got to start somewhere, but it's not at the top. You know, you're going to have to work your way up there, and, then, to those who are already there, I try to sit down with them and talk to them and try to motivate them that you don't just learn your job, learn somebody else's job. When you finish with what you're doing, sit with somebody else, look over somebody else's shoulder, because it would benefit you in the long run. And, it got so that even in the area that I supervise, I worked all the jobs, so I knew how long it took to do this, this and this.

So, you couldn't just sit there and twiddle your thumb and make me think you're 00:56:00busy because I knew how long it took to do the job. So, I would talk with them and try to encourage them to learn other things and most of them would listen. They would listen. And, I'd tell them when you finish with your job, let me know and, then I'll go over somebody else's job with you so you'll know how to work that job. It might not benefit you here at this company, but it might benefit you at another company. The more you learn then the better off you are. And, I think because of that, is the reason I like management so well, because I get a chance to touch other people's lives and try to motivate them, but, at first, I have to say that I was a little prejudice about it because I would focus more on the Blacks than I did the Whites. But now, I've grown, and I've learned now to try to treat them equally. I don't try to spend more time with the Blacks than I would the Whites. But, in motivating the person, I'm willing to -- anyone that's 00:57:00willing to learn-- I'm willing to work with you whether or not you're Black or White or red or blue. So, I get a lot of joy out of that.

MYLES: What about the Movement today, do you think there's a need? I mean, some people say, "We don't need SCLC, we don't need the NAACP, we have arrived."

COTTON: No. We have not arrived. There's been changes but we have a long way to go. There's still a lot of hatred out there. We've made some gains, but things could be a lot better than it is today. I think if the Movement was not still active, things would be worse than what it is. But, I think that as a people, a lot of the hatred that's there, I realize is taught by the parents and as the teenagers and our generation now, as they grow older, I think they're learning to reason and read for themselves, but it's still a lot of hate groups out 00:58:00there. You hear them talking about the skinheads and you'd be surprised how the Ku Klux Klan is still active. They might not be wearing the white robes as much as they did back in the 50s and 60s, but they're still there. And, we still need to work toward that. I think the Movement is a good thing and I'm going to try to be more active in it myself.

That was one of the things I promised myself. I had a good experience happen to me last year. I was at the airport getting ready to go to Cincinnati on a trip for my job, a training session and Dr. Shuttlesworth was at the airport. I went over and introduced myself and told him that I was one of those that worked in the Movement and participated in some of the activities when he was in Birmingham and that kind of thing. So, we talked and he told me he lived in 00:59:00Cincinnati and on the plane we got a chance to know each other.

And, once I got there, he invited me to his church. That was on a Saturday. That Sunday I went to his church and at the church service, he got up and introduced me and he was saying how proud he was to have someone in his company that was active in the Movement, that marched, that it was a honor for me to be there. And I'm just thinking, "No, the honor is all mine, because I'm here in your presence." So, although 30 years later, it was interesting talking to him. His wife's name was Ruby, and my name is Ruby and my mother now lives on Shuttlesworth Drive.

MYLES: So it's still there.

COTTON: Right, it's still there, but that was a good motivational experience for me because we got a chance to talk about some things in the 90s that need changing.

MYLES: What are some of the things in the 90s that you feel need to be changed?

COTTON: I think we need to get the youth more involved in activities. I think that if we talk to them more and share more with them, they'll realize the importance of unity and looking out for each other. In today's society there's so much now, hatred with the gangs and drugs is a problem. I know they like to put it on the parents, but I don't think it's all the parents' fault. I think as a parent we do the best we can with our children, but I think as parents we need help from the church, we need help from the community, and if we all band together, I think that we can make things better. But, until we do that I don't think things are going to change as rapidly as we would like for them to change.

MYLES: Two things before we close. During your time of incarceration and being 01:01:00in the Movement as a teenager, were there any mementos, if you will, or anything that you kept or had that you still have?

COTTON: No, I don't. When I went the second time, I had on a white skirt and, when I left the jail it was black. I saved that skirt for a long time. But, then eventually, not that I tried to, but in my moving back and forth from different locations, it got misplaced, so I don't have that. And, then there was a candy bar wrapper that I had because they were selling candy and some of us had money, so I saved the candy bar wrapper for years and finally it got away from me, but I don't have any mementos, just memories of what happened.

MYLES: And, finally, is there something that I didn't ask you that, in closing 01:02:00you'd like to share with us?

COTTON: No, not really. I just liked the opportunity for sharing some of the memories I have from the 60s and I hope that something I've said will help someone and make their life a little better. I'm glad I had the experience. I know my children ask me now, "Mom, if you had to do it over again, would you do it?" And I said, "Yes, in a heartbeat. Only this time around, instead of going two times, I'd probably go more than two times." How many times it would take to make the world better, I'd be willing to give that sacrifice because it was something that Dr. King said in one of his speeches that, "If a man didn't have something worth dying for, then it's not worth living, or he shouldn't want to live." And, then to me the Movement is so sincere to me that it's worth dying for if that's to help somebody else and I'll be willing to give up my life if 01:03:00that's what it took to make things better for my children, my grandchildren or your children, your grandchildren. I truly and strongly believe in that. If they had to do some of the things today in the 90s as they did back in the 60s, then I'll be willing to participate.

MYLES: I know I said that was last question, but I'll make sure this one is. Have you thought about or have you already documented, in writing form, in a pamphlet or book, all of the things and more that you could say that you could have here in a book form that others can continue to read over and over?

COTTON: No, I haven't. It's one of those things that I say that I'm going to do because they are so many experiences, but I've kind of kept pushing it aside. I did have a tape at one time of some of the instances and one of my children took 01:04:00it to school as a project and it got misplaced, so I need to do that tape over again. But, that's one of my goals to put something in writing so that my grandchildren could know the story or even do a tape of it, a video tape to have it for later years.

MYLES: Well, we certainly look forward to it.

COTTON: And, I've enjoyed the opportunity here for sharing this and it's nice meeting you.

MYLES: Thank you.