Rodney A. Max Interviewed on July 7, 2011

Speaker 1: Okay, we're ready.

CORLEY: Okay, all right. Rod, it's good to see you, and appreciate you coming in to this, this evening.

MAX: Sure.

CORLEY: What I'd like to start with, is at the beginning, in a sense.

MAX: Sure.

CORLEY: Tell us a little bit about your own particular journey to Birmingham. I know you were not born here in Birmingham, but you have spent a good bit of your adult life in Birmingham.

MAX: Right. Correct. Correct.

MAX: I came to Birmingham in 1972, after I got finished with my tour in the military. I came here for the purpose of going to law school at Cumberland School of Law. With every intention of leaving and going down to Florida, which was my home, where my family was, in south Florida. Both legally, 00:01:00professionally, and civically, and personally, I fell in love with city. We decided to give it a try, and see if staying here after law school, instead of going back to my roots, was the thing to do. 30 years later, it was the thing to do.

MAX: It's been a wonderful journey. A lot of great people, a lot of good work in the community being done by others. I just teamed up with people to do my little share.

CORLEY: You graduated from Cumberland Law School.

MAX: Graduated from Cumberland in 1975.

CORLEY: In '75.

MAX: Correct.

CORLEY: You came here in '72 to go to Cumberland.

MAX: Right.

CORLEY: What attracted you to Cumberland, to begin with?

MAX: Cumberland was a school who looked to people who had done hard work, had been in leadership positions, and they de-emphasized the LSAT testing, which I 00:02:00wasn't the best at. They looked more at your leadership capabilities. And so, I joined ... there were 200 people in a class, and there were other people who had been in the service. There had been people who were student body leaders, and people who were leaders in their profession. Some of them were younger, some of them were older.

MAX: We went through the journey, the three year journey, together. Cumberland's a wonderful school, not just teaching the fundamentals of the law, but teaching about the courtroom, teaching about how to take care of people, in addition to just the legal journey of case law. After that journey, I felt very prepared to get out there and do my thing, and chose Birmingham to do it in.

CORLEY: I'm trying to remember, was Albert Brewer on the faculty?

MAX: Albert Brewer was not on the faculty at that time. He joined the faculty 00:03:00thereafter, and has been an incredible asset to Cumberland, that's for sure.

CORLEY: Yeah, absolutely.

CORLEY: You had been in the Army.

MAX: Right.

CORLEY: Did the Army pay for your education for law?

MAX: You bet. Right. I was in the service from '70 to '72. I was stationed in a number of different forts, all in the United States, but the last base was at Fort Knox, Kentucky. I was a chaplain's assistant there. By way of my military service, I came to Birmingham on the GI Bill. It put me through Cumberland.

MAX: Yeah, they took care of ... not just the tuition and books, but also a stipend. My wife worked, at the time, as a teacher. Together, between the two, we were able to make it through law school. We had a child before I got out of law school. My wife had a child my junior year, and then started practicing law 00:04:00in '75.

CORLEY: Let's talk about that just for a minute. You got out of Cumberland, and you started ... you decided you were going to stay in Birmingham, rather than go back to Florida.

MAX: Right. Right.

CORLEY: You started putting out your resume, I guess.

MAX: Correct.

CORLEY: This is who I am, I want to work for your law firm.

MAX: Right.

CORLEY: You applied to a number of law firms in Birmingham, but you-

MAX: I did.

CORLEY: They weren't returning your call?

MAX: Well, that's interesting. I did pretty well in law school, and thought that by putting my resume out with my credentials, both service and undergraduate, leadership positions I had been in, together with my ranking, that I could qualify-

CORLEY: And, you ranked in?

MAX: Yeah, I graduated number five in the class.

CORLEY: Out of a class of about 200, huh?

MAX: Yeah, about 200.

MAX: And, I felt that I could be accepted into one of the major firms in town. I did not know anyone in town, and so, I guess from that standpoint, I could be a 00:05:00gamble. I had hoped that my resume and my background spoke for itself. But, I wasn't getting any call backs. I didn't understand it.

MAX: I contacted someone ... I wandered over to the Jewish Community Center, and met a wonderful individual by the name of Seymour Marcus, who at that time, was the executive director of the Birmingham Jewish Federation. He inquired as to where I was soliciting, and said that I was soliciting the wrong firms, that I wasn't going to get anywhere with the firms I was doing.

CORLEY: Let me ask you about that. The wrong firms, and you weren't going to get anywhere with the firms you had been applying to. What was he referring to?

MAX: He very explicitly said, "You're of a Jewish background, and you need to be soliciting Jewish firms, not non Jewish firms."

MAX: I hadn't put the two together, because I didn't really think in those terms. I wasn't active in the Jewish community at that time. With a last name of 00:06:00Max, who would know? Not that I was hiding it, by any means. It just was ... I was a lawyer, and I wanted to practice law, and I wanted to do good work.

MAX: I did not realize that was the reason I was not getting it. His statement to me was that I need not be applying to these firms that I'm applying to, but rather, I needed to focus on ... I think there were three primary firms he had mentioned, maybe four, that were Jewish firms.

CORLEY: When he said Jewish firms, these were firms with Jewish partners or they were founded by Jewish lawyers?

MAX: Right. Yeah, there were non-Jewish people in the firm, but they were ... the founding members of the firm were of the Jewish faith.

CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MAX: I took his lead on that, and very quickly, got accepted to a firm where Charles Denaburg was the head. Denaburg, Scholl, Myerson, and Ogle was the name of the firm. I ended up being with them for 19 years.

CORLEY: Right.

CORLEY: So, Ogle, for example, in the name of the firm. I'm assuming Ogle is not 00:07:00a Jewish name.

MAX: Right, and neither was Scholl at the time. Charles Denaburg was the founder. [inaudible] Myerson was also one of the principle partners. It was a good marriage.

CORLEY: Yeah, worked out well.

MAX: And, it evolved. It did.

CORLEY: You would say, in 1975, probably not a formal policy on the part of a law firm, but the mainstream law firms, the big corporate firms in Birmingham were not particularly interested hiring the number five person at Samford, at Cumberland?

MAX: Right. That was certainly the result, and I was told that was the reason. Again, I didn't associate it with that, but apparently, it was true that I was not accepted. I didn't get any ask backs from anybody. I did quickly get 00:08:00accepted by those who were of the Jewish faith, and was able to work it through.

CORLEY: You began your law career and started practicing law. What kind of law did you-

MAX: It was a commercial litigation practice. Some domestic relations.

CORLEY: So, not anything related, really, to civil rights?

MAX: No. It was representing people who were in a business setting, dealing with companies. Whether it was construction, or whether it was business to business, or whether it was an individual, a consumer, with business. It was all ... it was not personal injury, wrongful death related. It was primarily business related.

CORLEY: And you're ... what about it? What's your age about, at this point? '75 to '80?

MAX: Let's see, in '75, I think was about 27 years old. 27 years old.

CORLEY: Okay, so you're a young man.

MAX: Yes, right.

CORLEY: You're living here in Birmingham.

MAX: Right.

CORLEY: Did you become more actively involved in the Jewish community?

MAX: Yes, I was affiliated with a temple, became a leader in an organization called the B'nai B'rith.

CORLEY: Yeah. Which temple?

MAX: The temple at that time was Bethel.

CORLEY: Yeah.

MAX: That was a conservative temple. I had been brought up conservative. My wife was brought up reformed. We ended up, a couple years into that, moving over to Temple Emmanuel, which was more comfortable-

CORLEY: Which is a reform.

MAX: Reform, and more comfortable for my wife. Anything I'm going to get into, I want to assist and try to work with the leadership. I just don't like being a member of anything. I like to help out. And so, became very active with Temple Emmanuel. I had been with Bethel, but I grew, and I worked through the leadership there, in ... I think it was the late 90s, ended up being the president of that temple.

CORLEY: Being involved with B'nai B'rith, what would that entail? If you're doing- this is extracurricular, right?

MAX: Correct. Right.

MAX: B'nai B'rith is a men's service organization. A Jewish men's service 00:10:00organization. Within about a year or two, I was asked to be president. I served as president for many years. We did work ... we tried to get out from beyond just doing things within the Jewish community, although we assisted much there. One most significant thing was during the Christmas period, on New Year's ... on Christmas Eve, when firemen, police, other emergency personnel would have to otherwise be on duty, not that we could take their place and put out a fire, but we could assist in some of the clerical things. We could also assist by going around on Christmas Eve, taking donuts, coffee to people.

MAX: We went all over the community to do our goodwill on Christmas Eve, when they'd otherwise want to be at home with their families.

CORLEY: Yeah.

CORLEY: So, here you are. You're in Birmingham. How do you become involved in the larger community in Birmingham?

MAX: My segue was through the Jewish community. Not that I ... I did it through the Jewish organizations, but in addition to B'nai B'rith, I was involved with the Anti-Defamation League, which has a regional office, southeastern office, in Atlanta, and was active there.

MAX: Then, I guess it was the early 80s, when I was asked to become a member of, and became chairman of, the Alabama State Advisory Committee to the United States Commission on Civil Rights. That happened, I'm going to say, '80, '81, 00:12:00'82. Early 80s.

CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MAX: I don't know specifically how I got nominated, because I wasn't a political person. I think it was through the Anti-Defamation League, that my name got brought up and accepted. When I say I joined and then became chairman, I was asked to be on the committee, and immediately, they said they need a chairman and asked if I would do it. I was going to be put in ... not only into the kitchen, but into the oven, and accepted the responsibility, and proceeded.

CORLEY: Just real briefly, explain the civil rights commission. The United States Civil Rights Commission was created, I believe, in 1956 or 57, by legislation-

MAX: That's right.

CORLEY: Civil rights legislation of that year, and was typically designed to investigate claims on the part of individuals, usually African Americans, who 00:13:00had experienced something relating to their voting rights, being denied their right to vote.

MAX: That's right. That's right.

MAX: And, there were some suspicion about the commission. That was during the Reagan years, and there was a Republican chair. I forget his name, I think maybe Pennington, who was getting a lot of heat for the failure of the commission to act. I chose, whatever there was, I didn't want to sit on it. I wanted to act on it.

MAX: The people on the commission, at that time, agreed. We had some investigative activities, as you said. It wasn't just voting rights. Back then, there were issues of police brutality, and how the government was responding to 00:14:00that, particularly in the city of Montgomery. There had already been an investigation by the State Advisory Committee, that was being criticized by the people in Montgomery, because it was not balanced.

MAX: I said, "Well then, tell you what, let's get in there. Let's redo it. Let's balance it. But, we're going to write the report."

CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MAX: Over a number of weeks-

CORLEY: So, this was shortly after you took over?

MAX: Yeah.

CORLEY: Okay.

MAX: Within weeks.

CORLEY: Does this ... I mean, this is an advisory committee.

MAX: Right.

CORLEY: Do you have any kind of staff?

MAX: The staff isn't local. They were in another city, but they were professionals who would follow our lead with the agendas. In other words, they'd ask, "Who do we need to have come before us?"

MAX: And, we'd give them names of people who we thought were responsible. 00:15:00Responsible, responsive, to the issues. We would create an agenda, we'd have a public hearing. We attempted to be balanced, so that it wasn't conservative or liberal. It just was. This being in Montgomery, we had to deal with the time. It was Emory Fulmer, who was the mayor.

CORLEY: Mayor ... yeah, of Montgomery.

MAX: There were a number of people around him, both in the African American community, and in the white community, and in the political community, and in the police community, and the city government, and in the civic community. We brought them all together, and we listened to what they had to say, and we finished the report.

MAX: I committed to the mayor that he could see the report before it went public. We had issues over that. He didn't necessarily like the report, but we went public. It was published, and it was taken to Washington. It was reported to the commission. We were to be the eyes and ears for the commission in our 00:16:00state, and I wanted them to hear what was going on.

CORLEY: Does every state have an advisory committee?

MAX: Yes, every state has one. Some are more active than others, some are less active.

CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Does a lot depend on who the leadership of the committee is in each, as to how active they are?

MAX: Oh, yeah. Some may, as a matter of form, meet once a year or once every other year. If you have issues, you need to address the issues.

CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MAX: What happened when I joined, we immediately took care of the issues in Montgomery, and then we quickly made an investigation of what was going on in Birmingham. And, just civil rights, generally. We had yet another set of public hearings that probably took place within six months after Montgomery. And on, and on, and on with the various issues that take place here.

CORLEY: So, this was sometime in 1982, 1983, when you-

MAX: Right. That's right. I say that, it was the Reagan administration. It was sometime in the early 80s that I got appointed. We followed through, during the course of the 80s and into the 90s. It was by that commission, and by my leadership there, that I got acquainted with people in the civil rights community, from Community Affairs, Community of Operation of Birmingham, and a number of the other organizations that we're dealing with.

CORLEY: Okay.

CORLEY: Just to get a time frame, you're starting as the chair of this Alabama state advisory committee.

MAX: Right.

CORLEY: You retain the chairmanship for how long?

MAX: I believe that went on until 2000.

CORLEY: Okay, so really, for a period of about 18 ... 17, 18 years-

MAX: It may have been 15 to 18 years.

CORLEY: Okay.

MAX: As you said, '83 ... I thought, it may have even been '85. It was about 15 to 18 years that I was involved with the leadership.

CORLEY: Okay. So, substantial amount of time.

MAX: Yes.

CORLEY: In the course of that, then, you began to obviously be acquainted with other people who were involved in civil rights activities.

MAX: Yep, that's right.

CORLEY: You mentioned the Community Affairs Committee of Operations, the CAC.

MAX: Correct.

CORLEY: Tell me a little bit about how that happened.

MAX: I was invited one morning ... of course, they met and probably still do, meet every Monday morning at 7:30. I was asked to come report as the chairman of the State Advisory Committee, to the United States Commission on Civil Rights, what was going on, what was being done.

MAX: I reported. As a matter of fact, it was not just about Montgomery, but at that time, it was about Birmingham, and had some ideas to suggest what could be done to be more affirmative. The people in the leadership, what we called CAC, 00:19:00asked if I would join and continue with my involvement with CAC, which I did.

CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MAX: That became a journey. I was honored by a co-chairmanship a few years down the road, and did work with CAC.

CORLEY: You seem to always get involved and then, fairly quickly, get into leadership.

MAX: Yeah. For me, it's not so much an ego thing, that I need it, it's just that somebody needs to speak out and at the right time. I don't mind sitting back and letting others do it, but if somebody needs a volunteer, I don't mind volunteering. I have a motto, it's about others. I think it's Hillel who said, "If I'm not for myself, who am I? But, if I'm not for others, what am I?"

MAX: My motto is others. Others gets me to be there, and if I can help, I'll be glad to help. If you don't need my help, and if you have others, that's fine. 00:20:00I'm not running for anything. I'm not trying to be the governor of the state. I just want to help out the community.

CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

CORLEY: You didn't ever really see this as a stepping stone for some sort of political office?

MAX: No. I will tell you, when I was 39 years old, I said, "You know what? I'd like to help in the legislature."

MAX: And so, I ran as a Democrat in the Mountain Brook, Leeds, Vestavia area, and just thought I could be of service in the legislature.

CORLEY: Okay. So, you're 39. That would have been-

MAX: I was about 39. I was born in '47, so ...

CORLEY: Was that '86 maybe?

MAX: Yeah, it was '86. That's right.

MAX: I ran. I did not succeed. I'll never forget ...

CORLEY: Who was your opponent? Do you remember?

MAX: Slaughter. Bill Slaughter. Very fine gentleman, who did good for the district, and was a very bright individual.

CORLEY: He's a ... you were not from Birmingham.

MAX: Right.

CORLEY: He was from Birmingham.

MAX: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

MAX: And, it was really a district that was more Republican than it was Democrat.

CORLEY: Yeah.

MAX: I thought if people got to know me, and I got acquainted ... I knocked on 4000 doors, and got my signs up, but if you recall, that's when Baxley and Graddock had their issues on the Democratic side.

CORLEY: Oh, yes.

MAX: As a matter of fact, Hunt got elected Governor, and anybody on the ticket that was Republican got elected, as well. Not to discredit Bill Slaughter for what he did, because he did a fine job, and was in the right place at the right time, but the swell was anti-Democratic, or anti-anybody that wasn't Republican.

CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MAX: The morning of the election, knowing I was going to get beat, I went to temple. I sat in the back pew, and I just said, "God, I don't need to be anybody's Governor or President. I just want to serve. Help me with a direction."

MAX: Within six months, the Bar Association asked me to be a part of an ADR committee, alternatives to dispute resolution. At that time, you could try cases, you could appeal cases. There was arbitration was being discussed, but nobody was mediating cases. I got asked to form the mediation rules for the state of Alabama. I did that in 1988. In 1992, it got approved by the Supreme Court.

MAX: Between '88 and '92, I began mediating. People were seeing the benefit of it, and how it was working to get cases settled fairly, in a good neutral, confidential form. Next thing I know, my schedule's filled up with mediation, 00:23:00and I let go of my client base, and began mediating full-time by '92.

CORLEY: Yeah.

MAX: But, what was happening, what was evolving, was my ... professionally, I was moving into the area of mediation. Civically, I was taking those same concepts, interest based resolution, as opposed to rights based, and trying to apply it to the many things that were going on in the community.

MAX: In fact, talked to people about how mediation could be used in the public sector, or in the local sector.

CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MAX: And, tried to apply it in a number of different instances. That merged the practice together with the civic.

CORLEY: Yeah.

CORLEY: It's also along about this time, I think, in the early 90s, that you become more active with some fairly controversial issues, I suppose.

MAX: Right.

CORLEY: Or, get more involved with Civil Rights more directly.

MAX: Correct.

CORLEY: In particular, with Reverend Abraham Woods and with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.

MAX: Right.

MAX: By the early 90s, and I think it was '92, there were a series of events that took place, and I then was involved with the leadership of Community Affairs Committee, CAC, of operation of Birmingham, and would attend different functions. The one that comes to mind, initially, was when Benny Rembert, an African American who was temporarily not living at home. Some would say homeless, but was over by Morris Avenue, and was beat to death by individuals who were alleged to be skinheads.

MAX: As a result of that murder, many of the civic leaders in the area of civil rights, met in the Fourth Avenue Presbyterian Church to express their outrage 00:25:00over this, civically.

CORLEY: That's First Presbyterian, which is located on Fourth Avenue?

MAX: Correct, First Presbyterian. That's right. Exactly.

MAX: Reverend Woods was there, Abraham Woods. A number of the other leaders, not just from the Civil Rights end, but just from the civic community. I remember Operation New Birmingham was there. I remember Elise Penfield was a member of this. We all made our statements about the issue.

MAX: When the cameras were finished, and the lights of the cameras were off-

CORLEY: So, you were there speaking for CAC?

MAX: That's right.

CORLEY: Yeah.

MAX: The statement was made, was that all we're going, is make statements? That was made by Reverend Woods. I said, "Reverend Woods, no. We need to do more than that."

MAX: He goes, "Well, you can't just talk the talk. You've got to walk the walk."

MAX: I said, "You're right. Why don't we meet in my office on Sunday night, 00:26:00after your church services are over? Let's see if we can quickly put together some sort of organizational scheme to help fight against hate crimes."

MAX: Which is what that was. We met, and we organized, and we established the Coalition Against Hate Crimes, and had members from all the different organizations that were civically oriented, that were civil rights oriented, joined it.

CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MAX: It wasn't to take the place of any organization. You had very active NCCJ, you had CAC, you had Leadership Birmingham. We just became a coalition of all those organizations, and we did not need a large budget, but we needed a budget enough to handle things. The question was, okay, what do we next?

MAX: I made a personal commitment to Reverend Woods, and that personal commitment was that he would never stand alone when there was ever an issue involving African Americans, that it was believed that when he would stand by himself, it would look like it was just his thing. It was not just his thing, it was the community thing. And so, my commitment was I would be there, or someone else in my place, would be there to stand with him.

MAX: He and I not only formed a relationship, but a friendship and a partnership. Then, there was a series of other events that led to our partnership formulating even beyond that, but that was the beginning of it.

CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

CORLEY: Say a little bit more to me about your impressions about Abraham Woods. Reverend Abraham Woods, who was the leader of the Southern Christian Leadership 00:28:00Conference chapter here in Birmingham, that was founded by Fred Shuttlesworth-

MAX: Right.

CORLEY: The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. Here you are, you're a Jewish lawyer. Here's Reverend Woods. You're white, he's black. You refer to this friendship.

MAX: Well, you know ... because of my profession, which is all encompassing, I didn't have time to make a lot of personal friends. Between my professional work and my civic work, and my family, it was pretty much full-time.

MAX: Through my civic work, I saw this particular need to join hands with him. I saw that he was out there, and that I thought that it needed some tempering. Not to be there with him every day, but when the events came up. The commitment of the coalition, and at the time, I was a co-chair with him, we were co-chairs 00:29:00together, that we would stand together when things would come up.

MAX: Reverend Woods was a very intense individual, a great family man, did wonderful things for his family, did wonderful things for his church. In the civic community, the Civil Rights community, he was seen as the spokesman. When you're the spokesman, you take positions. He wasn't always necessarily balanced with his position, he always took a side that was representative of his congregation, his community, his family, and his very strong background. He marched with Reverend King and was involved with that, and he continued that. He was very loyal to that.

MAX: When someone's loyal to that, whether you're a Democrat, Republican, conservative, liberal, when you're loyal to your cause, you don't abandon it. I never asked him to abandon it, I just asked him to open up to the fact that 00:30:00there were other sides and other things that we could do, other than to be staunch, and perhaps militaristic, in our approach to things.

CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MAX: It evolved over time, that the question for Reverend Woods, I believe, was could he trust me? And, could he trust somebody saying that they'll stand up with him, and what would happen when the first incident would occur? Would you be there with me? That was the test of time.

CORLEY: There's some other things that begin to happen right around that same time.

MAX: Right.

CORLEY: I think a lot of people maybe think that, in Birmingham, or in Alabama, or even in the country, after the 1960s, after the Civil Rights Movement, racial issues receded into the background, that there weren't a lot of things that ... the Klan, for example, was very active during the 1960s, and involved in a lot 00:31:00of violent activities in the 1960s.

MAX: Right.

CORLEY: What you discovered, really, was that these issues didn't just go away, even though it's maybe 30 years on, 25 years later. These issues are still emerging.

CORLEY: For example, 1992, I think it was, the Rodney King verdict came down in Los Angeles.

MAX: That's right.

CORLEY: Say a little bit about Rodney King, and what happened with your group, in respect to that.

MAX: Sure.

MAX: Well, it was coincidentally just after we formed the coalition. We did what we did in forming it, and we began to organize it. Then sometime in the spring, I believe of '92, is the Rodney King verdict. And, all over the country-

CORLEY: Rodney King, just real quickly-

MAX: Sure.

CORLEY: What happened?

MAX: He was an African American in Los Angeles, I believe it was, who had gotten accosted by, beaten up by police. The issue was that of brutality.

CORLEY: For which Birmingham had a great deal of history, back in the-

MAX: Right. Very sensitive here in Birmingham, and all over Alabama. That's one of the things I was dealing with Montgomery.

CORLEY: Same thing, police violence.

MAX: Brutality of police.

MAX: And, here it was. It was on video, and it appeared to the public that there was no question that these police officers were guilty of beating him up. And yet, that was an allegation. They were the accused. It was up to a jury of his peers, meaning the peers of Rodney ... of the police officers, to judge whether they were guilty or not. Well, the verdict came down not guilty, which is part 00:33:00of our justice system. The public said, "How could that be?"

MAX: If that's our justice system, then the justice system isn't working. In many cities, especially the African American community, got up in arms. If you look at history for the moment of that verdict, and within 24, 48 hours of that, you'll see that several cities had a lot of destruction. The day of that verdict, I wasn't even aware of it. I was doing legal work in Montgomery, some private matter that I was involved in depositions. I got a call that I needed to give Reverend Woods a call, because indeed the SCLC was needing to march.

MAX: This was when I talked earlier about when you're representing a group, you've got to do things. Well, he felt, and the people of the members of the SCLC felt they could not sit back. They had to get up. If they didn't, they were 00:34:00not acting responsibly, and they needed to march in Birmingham. I was concerned, and this was just personal, I was concerned that if they did that, there would be problems, and we'd end up with what happened in other cities.

MAX: I'm believing that was either a Wednesday night ... I think it was a Wednesday, because they had church at Reverend Woods' church. I said, "Reverend Woods, do me a favor. I'm coming to your church. Don't organize the march until I have a chance to talk to you."

MAX: He was kind enough to wait, and he had a group of people there, and the question was, "Why not?"

MAX: My answer was that if all they do is march, and it's an African American SCLC march, how's it going to appear, in terms of the public? Wouldn't it be better for us to get our coalition together, and for there to be a march. Yes, 00:35:00we'll march, but let's make it whites and blacks. Let's have the business community a part of it. They didn't think the business community would join. But I said, "That's my job. I'll tell you what we'll do. Give me the weekend, and we'll put together that march at 5:00. We've got to get a permit, anyway. Why don't we do this on Monday night?"

MAX: Without getting into all the details, we marched on Monday night. For the first time, I marched. I had marched for Jewish causes, but I hadn't marched for civil rights causes in Birmingham. But, I marched together with at least 500 other people. White, black, blue collar, white collar. There were probably more people wearing white shirts and ties in that march than there ever had been before. If you turned around and looked, and I was arm in arm with Reverend Woods at the time, look Reverend Woods. Look who we brought.

MAX: It was really a victory for the community. It was a victory for the trust 00:36:00between the races. It was a beginning of this relationship of I'll never let you stand up by yourself. I'll be with you, if you'll be with me.

CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MAX: Obviously, there are, at times, Jewish issue or there may be other minority issues that may arise. Let's just stand up together, and we can be stronger that way. This was the epitome of that. And so, it worked.

CORLEY: Yeah. You had a march to protest the Rodney King verdict?

MAX: It was as much to say that police need to be accountable, that things happen in community, and there's law enforcement have their rights and prerogatives, but citizens have rights and their prerogatives. They should not be discriminated against in doing the police officer work they have to, be balanced.

MAX: We got police officials. One in particular is Johnny Johnson, who was a police officer at the time. I don't know if he was the chief. He became the chief. But, he was active-

CORLEY: Just for the record, Johnny Johnson, as you've mentioned, does become police chief.

MAX: That's right.

CORLEY: Becomes the first African American police chief in Birmingham.

MAX: That's right.

CORLEY: Yeah.

MAX: It was a bringing together of even that interest. Here was the police, helping support the march, not being against the march, which is what the 60s was about. And so, it was a big beginning.

CORLEY: Yeah.

CORLEY: Again, not too long after that, maybe another year or two-

MAX: Right.

CORLEY: There's an event where the Ku Klux Klan announces that they want to have a rally to rededicate, I think, the Confederate memorial in Jefferson County, at 00:38:00the courthouse, excuse me, downtown Birmingham, at Lynn Park.

MAX: Correct. That's right. That's exactly right. They wanted to do that on a Saturday. While they have a right to march, it was believed that is not what our community stands for.

CORLEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative). They applied for a parade permit, just like you had for the Rodney King-

MAX: That's right.

CORLEY: Right.

MAX: And, it got accepted. The question was, A, do we protest their right or what do we do? I said, "Well, they have a right. We have a right, also. Why don't we create a march of our own, but let's work with the police. Let's work with the government. Let's work to do it in a way that is respectful."

MAX: While there were some in the community that wanted to be there at the same time and confront the Klan, and basically have a confrontation, we chose to meet, had a number of debates over how to handle this. The Klan wasn't even 00:39:00involved in those discussions. We had members of the community, the African American community, the civic community, the law enforcement community. How can we do this respectfully?

CORLEY: And again, Reverend Woods was a part of that?

MAX: Right.

CORLEY: Okay.

MAX: And, felt that there needed to be some form of confrontation. The better judgment was, why don't we let law enforcement handle the Klan. Let's trust, at this point, Johnny Johnson, I think, is the chief of police. Let's trust the police to handle that, but let's be there shortly thereafter. Let the police clear them out, and they do their thing, and the Klan does their thing in the morning. Let's us rededicate the park to the people of the community who are for the diversity of the community.

MAX: Bottom line was, they agreed with that. Arm in arm, we started at ... I think we started at 16th Street. We had a number of speeches at 16th Street around 3:00, just like there had been ... to go back that morning, I think at 9:00, the Klan did their thing, in a very, very effective and efficient way. The police monitored that. We encouraged people not to go there. We encouraged people to stay out of downtown. Basically, they talked to themselves, with the monitoring of a helicopter, and everything else was very close on top. You probably couldn't even hear what they were saying. And, they did their thing, left, and 2:00 or 3:00, we all met.

MAX: We met at 16th Street. We had people from all races, religions, colors. It was just wonderful. There were a large gathering, where people were told out of 00:41:00the morning, they came back in the afternoon. We not only gave only the speeches, but we marched, and we marched to the park. We rededicated the park to the good people of Birmingham who promote diversity. Again, another standing up together with, not only just Reverend Woods and SCLC, but all the people in leadership. Birmingham was very vibrant at the time, and a number of the civic leaders.

CORLEY: We'd also talked about 1995, I think it was the Oklahoma City bombing.

MAX: Right, right. That's right.

CORLEY: That occurred at the Murrah Building there, federal building in Oklahoma City.

MAX: Right. Yes.

CORLEY: Again, there were a lot of incidents here or there were concerns about incidents here. Tell me about that.

MAX: That's right.

MAX: When the Oklahoma bombing occurred, within 24 hours, we of the coalition were getting contacted by individuals in the Muslim community, that they were being threatened. The statement was made that for every person who was killed in the federal courthouse in Oklahoma, there would be a Muslim killed in our community. We said, "That's nonsense. But tell you what, let's not take light of this."

MAX: Nonsense not that they weren't right, but nonsense for someone to react that way. We didn't even know who did it at the time.

CORLEY: But, the assumption was it was somebody who was a terrorist, number one.

MAX: That's right. Right.

CORLEY: But, also probably Muslim.

MAX: That's correct.

MAX: And, not knowing who it was, we just felt it was appropriate to let law enforcement, again, do their thing. But, let's not overreact. In the meantime, let's ... some public statement needs to be made for the Muslim community, who 00:43:00was attempting to just coexist in the Birmingham community.

MAX: It was a wonderful lesson for me, because not even knowing who the individual was, I called Reverend Woods, he agreed, let's come ... he came to my office, I think it was in the middle of a mediation. I said, "Let's come to my office and we'll make a public state. You and I, and this Muslim leadership, who I didn't even know who they were, and let's make a statement of let law enforcement do their thing, let's stand together and let's not overreact."

MAX: We arranged this for sometime in the morning, maybe it was 11:00. Reverend Woods comes in and I'm anticipating someone from the Muslim community, in my mind, who am I going to see? In walks this six foot four, blonde hair, blue eyed individual who happened to be in the Muslim community, that was part of the leadership. I was ... I learned my own lesson of pre-judging, because that 00:44:00wasn't who I thought was going to walk in the door. We formed a very good relationship with him. We spoke out about the calm that needed to be happening. Within 48 hours, McVeigh, not of a Muslim faith, but a white Anglo Saxon, was accused at that time of doing the crime, later convicted.

MAX: The good news was, there was peace in our community and nothing happened. Again, it was standing up in what could have been a thread of violence, a hate crime, against someone because of their religion. It was appropriate for someone of the Jewish faith, and the Christian faith, to stand with someone of the Muslim faith, and we did. And, we did.

CORLEY: I'm hearing you tell these stories where just about every time there was 00:45:00some incident, not necessarily here in Birmingham-

MAX: Right.

CORLEY: But, even if it was somewhere else, you worked very closely with Reverend Woods.

MAX: Right.

CORLEY: Under the rubric of this coalition against hate crimes.

MAX: Right.

CORLEY: And, stood for non-violence, stood for respect, and so forth.

MAX: Right.

CORLEY: Surely, there must have been some time where you and Reverend Woods had a disagreement.

MAX: Well, yeah, his approach was to be relatively impulsive about all of these things. Mine was a little more deliberate and more inclusive. There did come a time when we had another hate crime that I asked him to stand up for, and that was a little more difficult for him. It occurred when a male individual, I think it was Sylacauga, was beaten to death because he happened to be gay.

MAX: The coalition got a call from one of the prominent members of our community, saying that the gay, lesbian, transvestite, et cetera, members of the community were very concerned that there would be copy cat crimes committed in our community, and that somebody needed to speak out. It sounded like it was a reasonable request. I brought the coalition together, called Reverend Woods, and that was somewhat problematic for Reverend Woods. By way of his religious background, he had difficulty dealing with that issue. But, I told him the coalition stood for standing up for minorities, and I believed the gay, lesbian, transvestite, et cetera community was in need of protection, and we needed to 00:47:00stand up.

MAX: There was an organized ... it had already been organized for there to be a meeting at the church in Birmingham, the Metropolitan Church on First Avenue North. I don't honestly recall the correct name.

CORLEY: Yeah, I think it's actually ... I think it's called the Metropolitan Community Church.

MAX: Yes, Metropolitan Community Church. Correct.

CORLEY: I think. Yeah, it was on First Avenue North, out near Woodlawn.

MAX: That's exactly right.

MAX: They were having a meeting on Tuesday night to speak out against this. What was interesting was, there was protesters outside of that church against gay and lesbian issues. But, we went. The coalition went, many of the organizations went. I had a board meeting at my temple that night, but I called off the board meeting to attend. Reverend Woods did not attend, but the coalition attended. That was the thing, I wasn't going to let the coalition not be a part of 00:48:00standing up.

MAX: For me, it was a very gratifying night of seeing a room full, not just all the pews in the church, but in the aisles and sitting right by the podium, that were just ... a lot of people white collar, blue collar, of different races, who had an interest in gay and lesbian issues. We spoke out, that they too need the respect of others in the community, and let's judge people based on their character, not just their color and their religion, but their own personal creed.

MAX: It was a wonderful evening of coming together. I was proud of the coalition, I was proud of the many leaders. Bob, you were one of those who was brave enough to do that. It was believed to be the right thing to do, and I was just proud of those who had attended to speak out, because it wasn't a popular 00:49:00thing to do, obviously. We did it, and I think both the community was better for it, the coalition was stronger for it, and it was the right thing to do.

CORLEY: Just as a note, I think the group that was there to protest the meeting that night, is Reverend Ralph Phelps, and the Westboro Baptist Church-

MAX: Oh, is that right?

CORLEY: Which is mostly his family, or the members. They still are protesting at a lot of ... there was just a Supreme Court case relating to this, where they've been protesting at funerals of returning veterans. People who were killed in Afghanistan and Iraq, and basically saying the deaths of these people are caused by the fact that God hates gays and hates the fact that the United States have been open to gays, and so forth.

MAX: Is that right?

CORLEY: And so ... yeah, one of the families sued-

MAX: Oh, is that right?

CORLEY: The church, and the Supreme Court recently upheld that they had the right to protest.

MAX: I see. I didn't realize they were still active, but yes, that's exactly right. I remember going in with their protesting, and leaving with their protesting. It was just ... when people can come together, and you can get to know people, based upon what they're trying to achieve and not just on the prejudices, like what happened with the Muslim issue, with the bombing in Oklahoma, and then again with this issue.

MAX: There are just some wonderful people who happen to be of a gay persuasion, or a lesbian persuasion, that are really great contributors to this community. I see so much potential here in Birmingham to use our past for future good, and that was one of them.

MAX: I've left the community. I've turned my books and records and everything I 00:51:00had with the coalition over to the leadership at that time. I don't know, at this moment, who's carrying on that mission. There's just a lot of good things done for adults, for children. It's a better community because of those kinds of things.

CORLEY: One other activity I know you were involved with, and we're down to about maybe 10 minutes left.

MAX: Sure.

CORLEY: One of the things that you were engaged with here in Birmingham was something that's going to be known as Camp Birmingham, which I think still exists.

MAX: Right.

CORLEY: Tell us how that started.

MAX: I was active with the Community Affairs Committee. Matter of fact, Peggy Sparks may have been a co-chair with me. I got to know Peggy ... and this is, again, where you get to know people and you find the good in them, and you find what their visions are. We had an issue in Birmingham. This was probably in the late 80s. That issue was gangs. The issue was, what do we do with kids to get 00:52:00them off the street in the summer?

MAX: This was a coming together of the chamber, a coming together of Operation Birmingham, of Community Affairs Committee, and a number of other organizations. We sat and we said, first of all, what's the problem? And then, how do we approach the problem? What we realized was, there were a lot of kids who had nothing to do in the summer. To an extent, you can't blame kids for getting into mischief when they have nothing to do. Their idle. So, how can we activate them?

MAX: The kids that can afford to go to camp, they're involved. The kids who can't afford to go to camp, they have nothing to do. The kids who don't have a job, what do they do? I asked this question. I said, "What's going on in the schools during the summer? It's summer vacation. Are the schools active? No? How 00:53:00many schools do we have in Birmingham?"

MAX: We identified- there were a number of schools, but we identified 10 schools. I said, "Why don't we take these schools and why don't we raise both public money and private money, and create a partnership."

MAX: Let's raise about ... and, we came up with, and with Peggy's help, a budget of about $200000.

CORLEY: Wow.

MAX: Let's employ teenagers who wouldn't otherwise be able to get a job. In fact, we not only employ them, but more specifically, we had them go through an interview process. We had them dress up in coats and ties, and write out a resume. We had them interview with some of the officials, so that they could be qualified, or not, for these jobs. We gave them an experience on how to apply for a job.

MAX: We chose, for each camp, we had ... I think it was 10, or probably more 00:54:00than 10, maybe 20 counselors. We had camp counselors. They were ages from 16 to 18 or 19. We had directors who were at UAB, that were getting credit for what they were doing. We had counselors, directors, and then we ... they made minimum wage, but they earned a day's living, a week's living, during the summer.

MAX: We brought to the camp, kids who, for $25 as a stipend, we would fund the rest of their camp. They would pay $25 and they would get a camp experience. And so, hundreds of kids came out from the different communities. The reason we had these camps all over the city, parents couldn't necessarily drive their kids over to a camp, so we tried to put it in the community. Sure enough, they flocked to these camps.

MAX: These camps were not only for having fun, but the camps were for 00:55:00educational purposes. We had reading programs, we had academic bowls. Yeah, we had the athletic contest. We would meet at the end of the camp, over at UAB, and certain camps got rewarded for what they ... we rewarded the corporate sector for their participation, named camps after those who gave a large stipend to support the came.

MAX: Camp Birmingham became an activity that inner-city kids could enjoy during the summer, and we employed kids to get off the street, and you know what? The gang problem got to be put to bed. We didn't hear ... I'm not saying they were gone, but we certainly didn't hear of the mischief that we were experiencing before.

MAX: That was just ... the relationship like we talked about with Reverend Woods, the relationship I formed with Peggy Sparks was an everlasting one, just a wonderful person. She brought together a team of people from the Birmingham 00:56:00City Schools and community education to participate, and they're carrying it on to this day.

CORLEY: Yeah. Let me ask you to give ... you've had an interesting perspective. You came here as a law student, 1972, less than 10 years after 1963 when Birmingham started to change.

MAX: Right.

CORLEY: We're coming up on ... this 2011, so we'll be coming up in a few years to 2013, 50th anniversary of 1963 major events. A good bit of that time, of that 50 year period, you've been in this community. You've observed this community. What are your observations about Birmingham, and the ways it has changed, and the ways it hasn't?

MAX: Birmingham was just like ... has the scars of it's past. Those scars aren't 00:57:00going to go away. They're still going to be scars, just like a scar if you get hurt on your body. But, that doesn't mean you're going to be disabled, that doesn't mean you can't function and be productive, just because you've had an injury. And, the community suffered an injury back then.

MAX: Interestingly, today, I worked with a young lady who is paralyzed from the waist down. She's going to college now, and trying to be something, even though she's limited to her wheelchair. Just like Birmingham was limited by way of what happened in the 60s, we've become a better community as a result of it. As long as people don't just look back historically, either to the 60s or to the last quarter of the 20th century. We did some great things. For me, it's always a team effort. We, you, Peggy Sparks, Reverend Woods, Elise Penfield, and so many others. And, the Jewish community, the Christian community, the white community, the black community, and the business community, corporate sector, really 00:58:00stepped up to the plate.

MAX: Not only in Camp Birmingham, as I talked about, but in many other areas. We all need to continue that journey. The sign out front of Ingram Park, if I understand it correct, says "From revolution to reconciliation."

MAX: Well, now, we need to put reconciliation in big letters. Not only we learn and actively pursue reconciliation, but we need to export it, and even bring it to Birmingham. We've done it by that beautiful institute that we've got. It's not just a museum, it's a living creation. In my view, not just for people to come see, to see the history, but for people to be engaged by it. I would love 00:59:00to see the idea of other communities learn from our experiences, learn as we do with operation ... with Leadership Birmingham, where you get bankers, and lawyers, and doctors, and people in education, and people in so many different fields, coming together and learning about each other, and going back off into the community after they finish their venture with a leadership program, go out and be community together.

MAX: I think we can do that in Birmingham. I think that can be done at the Civil Rights Institute. I think that can be done on the holy ground of A.G Gaston, where A.G. Gaston Motel was, on one side and 16th Street on the other side, and the institute right in the middle. I think we can bring people to this community, not just from Birmingham and Alabama, but from many other borders where people may be in conflict, and say, "Why don't you come to Birmingham and 01:00:00let us help you, not to solve your problem, but to help you learn how to get to know one another, how we dealt with our scars and become a better community, and maybe you can do the same."

CORLEY: You would see Birmingham as a role model for how issues of conflict can be dealt with?

MAX: Absolutely. A role model that now only says, see our example, but let us help you find ways to get to know people. How does Rod Max get to know Reverend Abraham Woods? How does a lawyer get to work with an educator and create a Camp Birmingham? How can bankers work with the labor? How does the lawyer work with the doctor? Typically, people would say, "Those people are in conflict. Those people can't work together."

MAX: In truth, they can. Why can't they do that in another city in the United States? Why can't they do that between Israel and Palestine? Not politically, 01:01:00but from their interests. Interest based relationships. It would appear to me that the banker, and the doctor, and the lawyer, and the business person, who are looking to make a better living, not just for themselves and their families, but for their community, ought to have some commonality. Maybe we can help people find that commonality.

MAX: I think that's something that's yet to be achieved. I see the institute and the good leaders like yourself, being able to use Birmingham, and it's past, to do that.

CORLEY: Is there anything else, in the very brief amount of time we've got left, anything else that you think is important, you've observed, things that you've noticed, that we haven't talked about? Things that happened between 1963 and the current period, that have been, you think, significant?

MAX: I think, in a general way, I would say this: in this journey of trying to bring, and I'm talking about the last quarter of the 20th century, when we dealt with what happened in the 60s, now we're going into the end of the 20th century. People took the time, through Community Affairs Committee, through Leadership Birmingham, through NCCJ, they took the time to get to know one another, and break down the barriers that divide us.

MAX: I believe that it requires two things. As I said initially, I wasn't going to change Reverend Woods, from the standpoint of him not being a staunch advocate for what he stood for. I'll give you a quick example. Temple Emmanuel on ... what is it, 21st Street and Highland Avenue, had an issue. They had a 01:03:00building that was built in the early 1900s. They had an opportunity to abandon that building and move to the suburbs, perhaps closer to where more of the Jewish community was. The leadership of our temple, and I just had the privilege of being the president at the time, said no. We're not leaving Birmingham.

MAX: Birmingham consisted of a minority in the Jewish community. We were about 5500, men, women, and children. There are only 700 members of Temple Emmanuel. Instead of going back into a suburb, let's create, let's recreate, let's renovate the building that was built in the early 1900s. Let people know we're here, respect who we are, be active in the community, and work with community, not to isolate ourselves from the community.

MAX: The decision was made to spend sufficient dollars to renovate a very old building and be a vibrant part of Birmingham, not to go to the suburbs and run from Birmingham. The lesson of that, and the overall lesson is, let's respect who we are. Let's respect our differences. How do we find the commonalities that allow us to make for better community? Yes, I'm Jewish. Yes, I'm a lawyer. That doesn't mean I can't work with someone from the Christian community, from the medical community, or from the business community, to make for a better community.

MAX: I can respect you, and you can respect me. But, part of it is, getting to know one another. Last thing is, teaching that to our children, teaching that to the next generation, to get them from hiding behind their walls, and what would otherwise be their ghetto, and come out. I think we make a better community that way.

CORLEY: Well Rod, thank you so much for this time and for sharing all these really important memories with us.

MAX: Thank you. I appreciate that.

CORLEY: We really appreciate everything you've done, the contributions you've made to this community, too.

MAX: Well, thank you.

CORLEY: Thanks very much.

MAX: It's always a team effort. It is always a team effort. If you can be a part of that team, you've been enriched by it. Thanks for allowing me to share with you.

CORLEY: Sure.