Reuben Davis, II Interviewed on April 3, 1996

HUNTLEY: Mr. Davis, I want to thank you again for taking time out of your schedule to come back because you have so much information. In addition to Movement history, just history of Birmingham and the history of the development of politics in Birmingham. So, again, thank you for coming.

DAVIS: I don't think I could have done anything more exciting than being here with you, no question about that.

HUNTLEY: Tell me just a bit about your involvement in politics. did you get 00:01:00involved in politics in Birmingham? How?

DAVIS: Well, my first interest in politics, and I'11 shall never forget it. I was in (Inaudible), France. It was during the time, in 1945, President Roosevelt was up for re-election and I applied for a ballot to vote for the President. I received a letter from Alabama. It had a title, "Dear Alabamian, you are not on our list of qualified voters and you have to apply to be qualified before you can vote." And something made me see then this ballot must be very important. That was the very first thing I did after getting out. I was discharged in '45. This happened in the early part, it was during an election year. I was 00:02:00discharged on the 9th of December, which was a Friday. That following Monday, I qualified to vote. When I qualified to vote in Collegeville, where there was more than 8,000 Black people living within less than a square mile radius, but there were only 11 qualified voters.

HUNTLEY: What was the process of your qualifying to vote?

DAVIS: At that time I went to the courthouse and applied. I had no problem whatsoever.

HUNTLEY: Did they ask you any questions?

DAVIS: They asked me no questions whatsoever. I later found that would allow some to go through like that. I guess I came at a time that I was supposed to get by. But, I found the ballot to be power. Immediately I joined with the Progressive Democratic Council, and I knew, sooner or later, the conditions and 00:03:00opportunity to be involved in the political arena would have to change.

HUNTLEY: Who were some of the people who were involved with the Progressive Democratic Council at that time?

DAVIS: In Collegeville there were Mr. J. R. Hatchett, Mr. L. F. Berry, Mr. Mobile and Bart Washington, you know him. He's in a coma now in the hospital. Those are some names I remember. They were active with the Progressive Democratic Council.

HUNTLEY: What was the object of the Council at the time? What did they concentrate on?

DAVIS: At that time you had in the communities what was known as Civic League. The Civic League was scattered all over the county and that was kind of a branch of the Progressive Democratic Council. But just looking over the past, it's clear to me that the ballots were very scarce, but we few that did vote would 00:04:00get together and try to select the best White candidate. We had some we would look through the background of individuals and decide that we would cast our votes with the best White candidate. There were no Blacks to vote for.

HUNTLEY: How did the Civic League actually work?

DAVIS: The Civic League was organized for a community purpose and I have some letterhead. In my community, I guess I was in my early 20s at the time, I was elected President of the Civic Youth Federation. These were young people.

HUNTLEY: Within the Civic League itself?

DAVIS: Yes, within the Civic League. And, Dr. Macklin, R. B. Macklin was a doctor in the north Birmingham area and he paid for letterhead for our group. And, I still have some now. But, with that letterhead I took on, singlehandedly, 00:05:00that was back in '46 or '47, after I got out of the service -- it was a lot of Italian stores in the community. So, I went around to each one of them and tell them that if they would hire a Black clerk, then we would turn the trade into them. I was able to get a Black woman hired on a job like that.

HUNTLEY: In each of the stores?

DAVIS: Not in each of them. But, I was able to get one at a store right behind Hudson School.

HUNTLEY: Now, were you doing this as an individual or was this a part of the Civic League of the Progressives?

DAVIS: This was done because the people had elected me as President of the youth element and I decided to just take that on. At that time we had no street lights and no sidewalks. The only sidewalks in Collegeville were if the owners of the property put them there themselves. There was no connection at all with city 00:06:00hall. We had one paved street and my dad lived on 27th Avenue and that was the only paved street. It was for the convenience of the industry coming from north Birmingham to east Birmingham. But, the taxpayers on that street had to pay for that.

HUNTLEY: Were you ever involved with the NAACP?

DAVIS: Yes, I joined the NAACP and was a member until they disbanded it. You know they outlawed the NAACP after the Movement really got off the ground. In other words, it wasn't permitted to be active in Alabama. But I was a member.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever have any activity as far as voter registration was concerned, either with the Progressives or with the NAACP?

DAVIS: No. I didn't. I became interested in labor working for the railroad. Mr. Hatcher worked for the railroad. Mr. Berry worked for the railroad. And, after 00:07:00becoming active with the labor organization, then my interest focused then on economics for Black people.

HUNTLEY: How did that impact upon your community, the focus on economics?

DAVIS: One thing at that time, it was common that practically everyone that wanted a job could get a job. You had industries such as U.S. Pipe shop, you had Sloss, you had By­ Product, you had the L&N Railroad Company. You had ACIPICO, you had McWane and Stockham and all these places, there was no question about getting a job. But the thing about it, all the jobs available were lower end and the most difficult of working. I became active in trying to -- immediately after the Movement-- I became interested then in trying to force and encourage young 00:08:00folks that work at the plants to advance in jobs that wasn't available to them. And, I ran into situations where union contracts were such that they discriminated within its own ranks. They had what was known as departmental seniority. That meant, if I was hired as a laborer in a certain department, I couldn't move out that department to another. It created a problem.

HUNTLEY: Rather than company seniority?

DAVIS: That's right. This meant that a White person could be hired as a brick layer for U.S. Pipe. A Black man that had experience. In other words, these guys were handling all the bricks and mixing the mortar and the White man was just taking the brick, putting it in place in the hot oven. Well, Black laborers had 00:09:00to put the bricks in order according to where they were supposed to be, but they weren't permitted to become a brick mason until we finally got the government involved.

HUNTLEY: So that was another tactic to use to keep Black workers at that minimal level?

DAVIS: No question about it. The union itself devised that method. In other words, Black men had praises for seniority, but there weren't any jobs in that department, your seniority had no meaning.

HUNTLEY: Was your union affiliated with the AFL?

DAVIS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And the AFL had a history of being basically anti-Black?

DAVIS: That's exactly right.

HUNTLEY: Did you have any relationship with the unions in the CIO?

DAVIS: Well, I did from working with U.S. Pipe and Foundry Company. I think it 00:10:00was District 50, that was the title of it. The head of District 50 was a man named Moffet in Washington. Rayvon Hinton was working for U.S. Pipe and Rayvon, (Inaudible) on a job as crane operator. They had to give him the opportunity to train, but in the process of him cubbing, he and this White fellow had some odds and so the White man struck him and he struck him back, so they fired Rayvon. That's when I became involved. I went to the union headquarters in Washington dealing with that issue. From that I was able to get the government involved in looking at discriminatory practices at U.S. Pipe. I have some letters, you saw the file I have from Washington on that.

HUNTLEY: Between 1945 and 1955 or so, it was called "The Red Scare." The McCarthy Era. How did that impact upon you as a union officer?

DAVIS: Well, it is strange that you asked that. When I was fired from the railroad in 1950, I came home. The very next day I received a postcard from New York and this post card had information on it that was telling me that they could help me. That I was fired illegally and a lot of things they said was nice. But I was afraid that it was a scare, in other words, I knew the problem of being branded as a communist. Dr. Ballot, a physician in Birmingham many years ago, spoke at our church one Sunday and he said, "Anytime a Black man made any move towards progress, they'll brand him as a communist."

Well, when I received this postcard, the very next day I carried it to the FBI. They were located down the street from The Birmingham News. I walked in and gave this agent the card. He looked at me and he said, "How did your name get on that list?" I said, "I have no idea." He said, "Have a seat over there and see if you can't figure out how your name got on the list." "What organization are you a member of." I said, "I'm a scout master, a member of the labor organization, a mason and a church member." You might recall there was some type of training camp. A lot of fellows from the post office went away and they were suspected of being trained to be communists. It was a scary thing. Even Paul Robeson was almost destroyed because of his activities. I remember as a young man, I went to 00:13:00Pizitz to buy a record of Paul Robeson, Old Man River, and the lady looked at me and she said, "We do not have his records." Well, I really didn't know they were banded. I said, "Why?" "Well, just don't have his records." So I walked out. I later found out because he was supposed to be a communist, they destroyed them. They hurt a lot of people in that process.

HUNTLEY: Did you know Hosea Hudson?

DAVIS: Oh, yes.

HUNTLEY: Hosea wrote a book about his life, a Black working the deep south. He talks about his activities with the union, but he was an avowed communist.

DAVIS: Yes, Mr. Hudson lived in east Birmingham, Greenwood area. At that time you would wake up in the morning and you would see little leaflets on your porch and you don't know how they got there. But, somebody was always spreading 00:14:00information around. But you know, as I look back at that, I wrote a poem and I'll share it with you. In my opinion, the American government was not fearful of communism; they were fearful of knowledge of Black people being exposed to the point that they would accept. That's my interpretation. Now, based on the fact that Russia's symbol was a bear, but now the bear is a pussy cat and racism is still alive. But the bear is dead. In my opinion, they weren't fighting communism anymore; they were thinking that communism would advance the cause of Black people.

HUNTLEY: Did you know Asbury Howard?

DAVIS: Oh, yes I knew Mr. Howard.

HUNTLEY: Can you tell me anything about him?

DAVIS: Mr. Howard was a unique person. I knew him. He would sponsor a tour for the kids in the Bessemer school system. And this tour would go to Washington, New York, Philadelphia all the scenic places. The parent would have to pay just a little money. If they didn't have any, somehow they would have a chance to go. I had a chance to go on that tour with the kids as a chaperon for the boys. But he was really strong, civic minded individual, way ahead of his time.

HUNTLEY: He was a laborer in the Mine, Mill & Smelter Workers Union?

DAVIS: That's right, yes.

HUNTLEY: President of the Bessemer Voter's League.

DAVIS: Right.

HUNTLEY: And, he eventually was elected to the (Inaudible).

DAVIS: Yes, that's right. I knew him personally. He was a quite a fellow.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember when he and his son were attacked in the Bessemer City Hall?

DAVIS: Oh, yes. And he had a picture in his office where they struck him and his 00:16:00shirt was all bloody where the police officers attacked him.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember that incident actually took place?

DAVIS: Oh, yes. I was in Bessemer at that time.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about it?

DAVIS: Well, you know it was a no-no for a Black person to make any forward moves that wasn't approved by Whites. Mr. Howard was just a person that had no fear and he was insistent on doing what he thought was right to do. Any White person at that time, more aptly the police officer, but any White person at that time had somewhat of influence to the point that they could attack or threaten a Black man and no recourse. I remember at the L&N my foreman, Mr. Mulvaney. You see, I was taught at home that all elderly people was 'Mr'. and 'Mrs.' so it was 00:17:00no problem for me to say Mr. to a White person, not because he's White, but because he was elderly. So, what happened, Mr. Mulvaney, the foreman sent me to the back shop to get a 14" pipe wrench. So I went to the back shop. He said, "Go tell Wade Bradley to send me a 14" pipe wrench." It was just that simple. If he had said Mr. Bradley, I would have said Mr. Bradley. So, when I arrived at the back shop, the first fellow I saw was a White fellow operating a lathe. I stopped. I said, "Can you tell me where I can find Wade Bradley?" He looked at me he didn't say one word. I said it a little louder because I thought he didn't hear me operating this lathe. I said, "Can you tell me where I can find Wade Bradley?" He looked around and he gripped a wrench. He said, "You mean, Mr. Bradley, don't you?" I said, "You heard what I said." I had committed myself and I wasn't about to change. So when he gripped the wrench, I picked up a hammer. Now, that was just because I was addressing him by his name. Now, that gives you 00:18:00an idea of the conditions that took place at that time. This was a White man and I was a Black man.

I was a safety leader for my department and it was a young White fellow who was an apprentice carpenter. He referred to me as Davis I referred to him as Cobbs. So, one morning in the safety meeting, the foreman, Mr. Dewitt says that "Some of you fellows is getting too familiar with these White men, calling them by their first names and you know things haven't changed here." So, when he finished his speech, I said, " Mr . Dewitt, you didn't call the name as to who might have done that. But I refer to Cobb as Cobb and he refers to me as Davis--You, Mr. Dewitt, because you're my foreman." He never said a word. But, 00:19:00while I was working for that company, I was a tractor operator and I made it a habit of checking the oil in the tractor every morning before starting it. And, so one morning I put the dip stick in and checked it and it came out clear. I put some oil in it and put it in again, it was so clear I was somewhat startled. I found out that the crank heads were filled with gasoline. If I had started that vehicle, it would have actually went up. Because being an old foldsome tractor and if you know anything about internal combustion engines, gasoline only started by a spark. Heat won't start gasoline. So, if I had cranked it up and one of those cylinders fired and that gas vapor had come around the type of the cylinder head or piston, it would have blown up like a bomb. So after I found that, for whatever reason I wasn't excited about it. I asked someone to pull it to the back shop and drain the gasoline out and went on.

HUNTLEY: There was never an investigation?

DAVIS: Never an investigation.No questions about that.

HUNTLEY: You didn't carry that any further?

DAVIS: No.No I didn't try.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever mention it to anybody?

DAVIS: Several fellows knew about it. It was filled with gasoline.

HUNTLEY: So it was an attempt to get rid of you?

DAVIS: Well, I was branded as a trouble maker. What happened, Mr. Berry, was the man that recommended me for hire. My dad didn't vouch for me. I don't know why he didn't want me to work out there. He wanted me to go to school, but I wanted to work. So, Mr. Berry received a letter from an international representative 's office, Mr. Ray Abner out of Louisville, Kentucky. And, Mr. Abner, responding to the master mechanics conversation, asked him how was things at (Inaudible). He said, "Everything is fine here but Davis. He's the only trouble maker we have." 00:21:00When I found out that the master mechanic had classified me as a trouble maker, I got my committee together and we were going to the master mechanic's office and they asked me where was the problem . I said, "Well, I understand that Mr. Mcwilliams referred to me as a trouble maker. I want him to prove it."

So, the men didn't want me to do that. They said, "Son, don't do that." I said, "That is a gross insult to me and every man I represent." I said, "I've only upheld the rules according to their print. I kept an agreement book and a New Testament in my pocket all the time. I read both of them. So, I insisted on going to the master mechanic's office. When I got up there I wrote, "I had the Director of Personnel from Louisville, Kentucky come to respond to my request that the master mechanic had accused me of being a trouble maker". So, the first thing the Director of Personnel asked, his name was J. L. Sullivan, he said 00:22:00"Davis, did the master mechanic curse, say any bad words to you?" I said, "No, I never been cursed in my life." He said, "Well, how did he insult you?" I said, "It appears that only through curse words can one be insulted."

He said, "Well, you're the local chairman, the company is not going to allow our master mechanics to mistreat our local chairmen and by the same take, we 're not going to allow our local chairmen to insult the master mechanics." I said, "Mr. Sullivan, it seems as if you only think that a person is insulted by profane language." I said, "Mr . Mcwilliams is a master mechanic, isn't he?" He said, "Yes." I said, "If he was in the back shop among the labor that I represent and I would call him, 'Hey Mac, come I want to talk to you a minute', would I insult him?" He never said a word and that dismissed that. You see the point in question, Black people were submissive under the spell of power of Whites. Any 00:23:00White man had authority over Black and I couldn't swallow that. I just absolutely could not handle that. I respected them.

On one occasion, I was leaving my job at 11:00 that night. On my way home on 27th Avenue, just before you cross the railroad tracks there coming into Collegeville, I saw something move out there. My mind said go out there and see what it was. I went out there. Here was a White man laying out there in the grass. So I said, "What's the problem?" He said, "I was with some friends and they kicked me out the car." I said, "Friends?" He said, "Yes . Could you give me car fare to the Salvation Army?" Now, at this time car fare was seven cents, so you knew about how long it's been. Tarrant City No. 22 was running from Tarrant. So, when he spoke about the Salvation Army I told him, I said, "Well, 00:24:00I'11 take you." When I got him up and in my car and he saw my Black face, he asked me a dozen times on our way.

I was trying to find the Salvation Army because I didn't know where it was. He said, "Why is it you stopped to help me? You're a Black man and I'm White." I said , "I saw a man who need help." Finally, I was thinking the Salvation Army was on the south side over by the hospital. So, I came up to the 'Y' where AmSouth's new building is now there is was a YMCA. I saw the door opened so I walked into the 'Y'. There was a White gentleman at the desk. I told him there was a White man out there from north Alabama stranded and he needed a bed for the night and if he didn't pay him, I would. So he said, "We don't have any beds." I said, "Where is the Salvation Army?" He said, "It's on 11th Avenue." Well then I went over to 11th Avenue and it's about 11:30 or 12:00 then. After 00:25:00getting him there and this man stated, "I'm not ready for you to leave." Then I explained to him, I said, "I could not pass an opportunity of helping a man that was in need of help." He embraced me and kissed me on my cheek and said, "I'11 never forget you. " Now, I wou1dn't know him if I saw him today and I don't think he would know me. But that was just a nature that I have. I found that in order to be effective, you have got to love people. There's no question about that. We cannot win the battle ( Inaudible) without love.

HUNTLEY: In addition to being active in political organizations, active with the labor movement, you also became a teacher?

DAVIS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: You became a teacher though as a result of being dismissed from your 00:26:00job with the railroad.

DAVIS: That's right.

HUNTLEY: How did you make the transition from labor leader/organizer to educator?

DAVIS: Well, what happened, I wanted to be a mechanic. Cars were popular then. Women weren't driving at that time, not much anyway because they had standard shifts. At any rate, I saw a future there. I wanted to be the first Black person to have a service station in Birmingham. I tried to sell cars. 0. C. Hall had a car dealership in north Birmingham. I went to his office, applied for the job. He gave me a little test and I passed the test. And, then he said, "You passed 00:27:00the test all right. We're going to make a bird dog out of you." In other words, my job was to get a sale and hold it for a real salesman to come by and get the money. I wouldn't accept that. But, however, I wanted to have a business in auto mechanics. I had an interest in auto mechanics. My uncle was an auto mechanic in World War I. I followed him. And, then I went to school for auto mechanics. I attended the General Automotive Institute in Flint, Michigan. When I came back and got fired from the railroad, well, what happened, I went to J. Truitt Payne. I was dressed in a blue suit, White shirt, blue tie and shined shoes.

HUNTLEY: You told us about that part of the story. But how did you get to Michigan? Did you decide to go to Michigan for schooling? Or, were you going to Michigan to find a job.DAVIS: I went to Flint after I had started teaching 00:28:00school. MotorsInstitutewasthe only resourceI had instruction materialfor my students.I went to Motors Institute on my own, at my own expense and was General to get General getting different type of literature concerning engines and theory and I still have some information now. And, that enhanced my chances of sharing with my students.

HUNTLEY: So you were teaching auto mechanics in the Bessemer school system at Dunbar High School.

DAVIS: That's right. But, the see the thing about it, when I went to Dunbar I really never planned to teach school. They wanted me to use obsolete equipment that Bessemer High, the White school, had used up and I wouldn't accept it. And, 00:29:00the results of it were I found out that General Motors was very generous to educational programs. I later found that I could go to General Motors Institute during the summer months and get additional training and theory and instruction materials and that's where I was able to get that.

HUNTLEY: So you did that on your own? DAVIS: On my own. I paid for it.

HUNTLEY: Then you returned in the fall and how did that enhance your ability to work with your students?

DAVIS: Well, Bessemer High School would be in that shop at school.

HUNTLEY: This is the White school?

DAVIS: Right. Bessemer High was a White school. They could go to Drennan's for hands on work. But the school system was not preparing my students for 00:30:00employment. We had the shop for name purposes only. They never intended for my students to become competitive as mechanics. But I was interested in that. And I was able to turn out some good mechanics.

HUNTLEY: Where were they able to work after they finished?

DAVIS: Well, I have several young mechanics that are working on their own. They have their own business. The job opportunities were very limited. I never mind starting at the bottom and I taught my students, every one, I said, "Anytime you're looking and want to get a job," I said, "You go ask for an opportunity to prove that you (Inaudible) that job." For instance, I said, "A man might have a service station. Tell him that you would work for him a week before you decide 00:31:00what salary you"re entitled to. Let him know that you can be an asset to him." That was the kind of teaching that I shared. You didn't get that at Alabama A&M. The results were that my students got a bit of moral character about their work and also I gave them strong instructions. When you see a person stranded, help them. The money is not the primary objective. If you do what you're supposed to do, when the opportunity for money come, people look for you to give it to you.

HUNTLEY: As you progressed in developing your techniques for teaching, you also remained in politics. What was the first office that you ran for?

DAVIS: The first office I ran for was a delegate to the Democratic Convention.

HUNTLEY: What year was that?

DAVIS: That was back in 1970. The Birmingham News stated I was the first Black person to run for that position.

HUNTLEY: Did you win it?

DAVIS: No, no. I didn't win. But, then I became interested in County Commissioner. Eddie Gilmore, a commissioner, died in '71 and there were about 17 candidates, all White. Tom Groves was among the group and he finally won. When I found out that

17 Whites were involved, and I, being a member of the Progressive Democratic Council, we had quite a bit of votes at that time. It was after '65. I waited until the last minute on the last day to qualify. The paper was stating whether the governor would appoint a person. But, finally they decided to run it for an 00:33:00elected position. So, after I qualified, just a few minutes before closing time, and it came out in the paper that a schoolteacher from Bessemer qualified. Now, I would have won that election if I had gotten the blessings of the Progressive Democratic Council.

HUNTLEY: Now, the Progressive Democratic Council at the time was the leading Black organization?

DAVIS: It was the only Black organization politically activated. But, what really happened then and I'm ashamed to say, could possibly happen now. Black people are still being sold. You see, Arthur Shores at that time was head of the Progressive Democratic Council, but Bob Washington was a man that I had known, so I went to Bob and told him that I was going to qualify for County Commission. 00:34:00He called me by my street name. They call me Bubba. He said, "Bubba, you know if you would be a County Commissioner, you would be handling millions of dollars. What kind of large interest you've had and money that you'd count." Now, he'd known me all my life. I said, "Bob, I built a home. That's far as I've gone. I can make decisions no matter how many dollars, it's the decisions that counts." So, we left it like that and I felt literally that he didn't recognize my interest in people. And the results of it, they elected Tom Grove. But, the White vote was split 17 ways. I found out that it was a gentlemen on the Progressives who was the only real estate appraiser in Birmingham. I can't think 00:35:00of his name right now. But, at any rate, he told me the committee approved me.

HUNTLEY: The committee in the Progressives?

DAVIS: Within the circle of the Progressives approved to support me. But, when the ballots came out, Tom Grove's name was on it. You see there is a segment among us that some people is satisfied as long as they are advanced personally . But I took a position, I'm not secure unless my brother behind me is secure. I can't shake that off. I paid a dear price for that, because when I was working for the railroad everyone was promoted but me. But I considered myself as being successful. If we would just realize that if they come by today to take me, if someone don't do something about it, they are going to come to get you. So, I 00:36:00had an opportunity to work, to go in business and probably would have made a good salary, but I would have been doing it for the White man only and I couldn't do that.

HUNTLEY: What was that position?

DAVIS: Well, Lee Styslinger owned Al Picket Equipment Company.

HUNTLEY: What's the person's name?

DAVIS: Lee Styslinger. He's President of Al Picket Equipment Company. He's a very nice man. He has some boys. I think my little boy and his little boy are about the same age. But, at that time I was the caretaker of his property. I was living in an industrial at that time.

HUNTLEY: Is that in Collegeville?

DAVIS: It was a part of Norwood, where Vanderbilt Crossing is in the area. So, one evening I stopped Mr. Styslinger, I said, "Mr . Styslinger." He said, "Yes, Reuben. "

HUNTLEY: Can you spell that?

DAVIS: S-T-Y that's the way it starts. HUNTLEY: Styslinger?

DAVIS: That's right.

HUNTLEY: Okay.

DAVIS: I said, "It's an excellent opportunity for a Black man to go into business. Because what I had done earlier, I had went to Birmingham Trust to see Mr. Dick. I had my plans for my shop and how I would lay it out and I only needed $2,500.

HUNTLEY: This is a mechanic shop?

DAVIS: A mechanic shop.And, Mr. Dick stated that "You have a good plan, a good idea, but we can't approve your loan." He said, "You're not asking for enough money." Him being a banker all he was supposed to do was advise me and say, why don't you ask for $5,000. But, I told him head up, "I don't make it a practice of borrowing money I don't need. So, what happened, when I mentioned to Mr. Styslinger concerning going into business, he readily agreed. He said, "Let's go back in the office, sit down and talk." Went back and talked and he said, "Reuben, let me know how much money you need, how many people you"re going to work, how much you're going to pay them and approximately how long you think it 00:38:00will take for the business to turn a cycle." So, I had all that in my head. But I gave him the two weeks and I came back. He said, "I'11 deposit the money in the bank in your name and you write checks." And, when he said that I said, "How do I pay you back?" He said, "You don't pay me back." And I was startled then. I looked at him and he said, "What's the problem?" I said, "I can't accept your offer." And, I walked away from that. You see, you remember the drive-in theater in Bessemer?

HUNTLEY: Sure.

DAVIS: Mr. James Bend. That organization, that drive-in, belonged to a doctor in Bessemer. Mr. Bend was running it for him. I could not use Black people like that. And, I didn't.

HUNTLEY: So you decided you had to be your own person?

DAVIS: That's exactly right. In other words, if I had accepted his money, I would have been operating his business and if I had gotten it to a point, use my 00:39:00influence as a Black person and using Black people as customers and what not, then I still was his man and I couldn't do that.

HUNTLEY: At what point did you run for office again?

DAVIS: Well, the next time I ran I ran head up against Congressman Ben Erdich. At that time he ran for County Commission and I ran against him. I had gained a lot of respect from people in Jefferson County because I wrote a lot of editorials. In fact, the Bessemer Board, through the principal, threatened me about writing editorials. I felt it was my privilege. So I had a lot of people's attention by writing. So, when I ran a second time after Mr. Gilmore passed and 00:40:00Ben won the election by 10,000 votes. But, I received about 20,000+. He received about 35,000. He spent about $40,000. I spent less than $300. I didn't think money was actually a factor in the political situation and I think that's another problem that we have. You see, the ballot in America has been almost destroyed. The problems of politics was created in a political arena but it will never be solved there. When the people began to go after special interests, that money was pooled together for a common cause and those elected officials that took that money was locked into that system. So, I really didn't understand that because I was looking, more or less, wanting to be a Commissioner for all the 00:41:00people. There was no room for decent men in politics at the time that I entered. They couldn't handle that. And, I don't regret being re-elected because the fact that I could have given my character away and I would have been a Commissioner for life.

HUNTLEY: When were you eventually elected to the County Commissioner? DAVIS: Well, do you remember Walter Jackson, Ron's brother?

HUNTLEY: Yes.

DAVIS: Okay. Walter and I and Dr. McPherson had gotten together and drew up a charge to file a suit against the county for discrimination.

HUNTLEY: What year was this?

DAVIS: That had to have been around '70 or '71, something like that. But, at any rate, the county contends, and they were going to use me as a witness, that a Black could win county wide. But, they compromised before that. They subpoenaed 00:42:00me to appear in court. But the results of it, they compromised and set up the districts. But, now, when I ran head up against Ben Erdrich, there was a situation, in other words my name was leading the line in Blacks as far as politics was concerned. And, so I then my focus was on the county commission. So, when the districts were set up, Lee Lowder also ran and I ran. At that time, William Bell threatened to run. I was visiting the breakfast (Inaudible) every Sunday morning. And one morning, one of the fellows at the breakfast asked William, he said, "You're present of the Council, what do you want to be a County Commissioner for?" I saw a little shimmy in his knee and I knew then that 00:43:00something was wrong. So, finally what happened, I was home cutting my grass one Saturday. My wife said Dr. Gaston was on the phone. Dr. Gaston never called me before. So I went to the phone and he said, "Reuben?" I said, "Yes, sir, Dr. Gaston." He said, "Come by the office, we'll see about winning this election." The very next week Mayor Arrington and his wife came by. Dr. Arrington stated, "Reuben, I come by to tell you that Bell is not going to run." Now, what I gathered out of that. I think that some powers that be was afraid I would win without their support and so they came in at the last stage. I won with overwhelmingly. I had over 90% of the Black vote and 30% of the White vote.

HUNTLEY: Were you supported by the Coalition at the time?

DAVIS: Yes.I was backed by the Coalition.

HUNTLEY: What was that experience like as a County Commissioner?

DAVIS: Well, I knew I would get it sooner or later. And, I went in with my head down. Being the first one to sit in that office because they built that office. I even bought the furniture before I was elected. But, I had asked my pastor to come and dedicate that office to God. I went in with my head down to be of service to the people of Jefferson County. Health care was my major interest. And, against crime. You see my interest in those areas was based on the fact that I knew that crime was not inherited. That if parents would accept their responsibility, as I mentioned to you children are perfect psychoanalysts. If a parent lets a child go too far, giving him what he wants, it'll get out of hand and you can no longer hold him. If a parent was responsible to parenting, we 00:45:00could kill crime overnight. So that was a part of program and I later mentioned in the County Commission that we should pass a resolution for parent accountability for conduct of minor children, but they laughed at that. This country cannot exist with a budget for health care, crime and welfare as they exist today. Now, health care, I had about 50 people to get together and develop a program for health care of Jefferson County that goes into the year 2000. And in this I charged them with the responsibility of having a strong emphasis on preventive care. I wanted clinics built all over the county like parks, where kids could walk to a clinic. It didn't have to be a building, it could be a 00:46:00mobile unit, but just where you could be close. It was nothing really new about the idea, because I felt God made the body self-sustaining. Food itself is medicine. If people learn how to eat well and all this bad air we breathing have some effect and the companies are responsible for that, but I felt that we could fight and win the battle for health over a long term with preventive care. The doctors didn't like me for that, so I had to go.

HUNTLEY: So you then became sort of a scapegoat?

DAVIS: No question about that. You see, one of the major problems that I found and I didn't realize it was being a problem, because I'm still thinking I'm doing the right thing. In order words, the right thing in my mind is more important than the consequences behind it. And, there was a HRS one million 00:47:00dollars a year plus ten percent of all cash collections. And, I didn't like that. At the time I was elected, Cooper Green was threatening to be closed at any minute. But I was fortunate to get that contract torn. The people that supported me, John Catapotis supported that, and also, Jim Gunner. But, they were thinking that the hospital would cave in on me. But, I gave all the employees of HRS six months' notice that they would receive the same pay. But after six months they would have to compete for the job on the county level. As a result of that five suits were filed against me because they didn't qualify 00:48:00for the job. It wasn't my fault. The County Personnel Board had established the requirements. My responsibility was if they sent me three names, to select one.

I found that there was one particular case that the county, in fact I accused them of conspiracy and that's in the making right now. The Executive Officer of the hospital asked for a position to be established as a Supervisor of Maternal and Infant Care. The person that was the head of that department was Elizabeth Bonner, a Black female. The only nurse in the hospital that had a degree in midwifery. So, he came in and wanted the supervisory position established and he had a White female's name he wanted to serve in that capacity temporarily. So, I said, "John you can't do it like that." He said, "What do you mean?" I said, "If you want the position established, you go to that department, starting at the head nurse. And, if all the nurses in the Maternal/Infant Care Department refuse 00:49:00to accept the temporary appointment, then you can appoint anyone you like because that's the only way you can do it." So he was all upset.

Later I'm thinking he's following through on my instructions, but he still had (Inaudible). And, so one Friday evening about two weeks later, he called me about 5:30 at home. He said, "Co mmissioner." I said, "Yes." "This is John. I want you to come to the hospital right away." I said, "What's the problem?" He said, "The doctors want to talk to you." I said, "It's that important?" He said, "They are waiting on you now." So I dressed and went to the hospital.

When I got there, about 14 doctors were in the conference room. "Commissioner?" I said, "Yes . " "We're concerned about this position in Maternal and Infant Care." I said, "What about it?" They said, "We want a qualified person in that position." I said, "You have one." "She ain't qualified." I said, "Document it. Put your concerns in writing to me." And one of the doctors, Dr. Goldberg stated, "Who is going to delivery these babies?" I said, "Gentlemen, it seems as 00:50:00if you all have a problem." I said, "Pardon me." And I left them.

I knew I was standing on solid ground. Now, the results of it. When I wasn't re-elected the county attorney sent a man out to my home for me to sign an affidavit giving them authority to represent me in settling those cases. I consented with the understanding that I would be involved in the discussion of settlement, because I wanted to protect my name historically, as well as the decisions that I made. I didn't want to be charged with discriminating against White people or harassing Blacks. But, the next thing I knew I received a letter from Judge Acker, William Acker. It stated that "all parties to this case is present except Reuben Davis." And it further stated "that there was no opposition from Davis." Then, I hand-delivered a letter to Judge Acker informing him that I was not involved in settling that case and I made it clear that I 00:51:00wanted to be involved in the discussion of settlement. So, Judge Acker wrote a letter to all parties and all lawyers stating that he received a letter from me stating that I was not involved in the discussion of settlement of this case and he didn't know what to do with my letter. The next thing, I received a letter from the county attorney's office stating that "Commissioner, we were protecting your bank book and your property." I wrote them a letter in response to that. I said, "You were authorized to protect my name and my character as a Commissioner, my historical record as a commissioner, not my money." So that's a new game. This is in the making right now.

HUNTLEY: Why do you think you were not re-elected?

DAVIS: The only reason I wasn't re-elected was I didn't have the endorsement from Mayor Arrington.That's the only reason.

HUNTLEY: Why did you not have that endorsement?You did have it the first time?

DAVIS: I had it the first time.One thing that caused that, in my opinion -- 00:52:00occupational tax surfaced.There were several men from the Coalition who wanted to meet with me one Saturday about the occupational tax. They said, "Reuben, this tax will kill Birmingham."That's all they could tell you.That was gone over and over again.I said,"Fellows,the county governmentneedsthismoney.CooperGreenHospitalis threatening to be closed, any minute."I said, "Occupa tional tax is the salvation for the hospital."So, after about two andahalfhoursof deliberation andweweren'tgetting anywhere.I said, "Look, if you guys can come up with an idea as to how the county can raise some revenue, I'll take it back to the Commission."So, we dismissed.That was Saturday.

That Monday I met with the Mayor. Mayor Arrington told me the very same thing. He said, "Reuben, this tax will kill Birmingham." I said, "Mayor, the county needs that money." He put his hand on my shoulder and said, "Reuben, I understand. See if you can de1ay it." I never asked him why. So I came back and 00:53:00talked to Chris and David Orange. I said, "I had a meeting with the Mayor and he wanted to know do we have to vote on this tax tomorrow. " It was Tuesday. So Chris said, "Man, you know we need that money and you know it's clean. There are no (Inaudible) about it.

Tuesday morning I went in chamber and that resolution was leading the agenda and I voted to support it. At evening the Mayor comes into my office. He was pretty hot. He said, "Reuben, I never been so disappointed in my life." I said, "What's the problem, Mayor?" "You supported that tax." I said, "I never told you I wouldn't." "I can't put up with this." He went in circles talking about he couldn't put up with that. I was startled. And later now, you think about it. Later on, even after this, now, I voted to support the Civic Center. If I hadn't supported it, it wouldn't have gone through. Now, it takes three votes to run 00:54:00it. Jim Gunner and Catapotis was not in favor of the Civic Center expansion, but I supported it with the occupational tax money. If the occupational tax hadn't passed, the county wouldn't have had money to put in the Civic Center. So, it was some poor connections there somewhere. My interest was the people. My head was down. I was thinking that the people were watching my back. And, I misjudged the Black people's interest in the political process. I thought they were reading the newspaper and knew of the struggle I was having, trying to keep the hospital going. They knew what I had done and how I was being pressed and what not. Well, that told me that Black people did not have controls (Inaudible). And, I think that's where we are today.

HUNTLEY: Since then, we've had an event that has been, obviously world renowned 00:55:00that was the Million Man March. What was your opinion of the Million Man March, and did you attend?

DAVIS: Yes. I attended and that was the most exciting moment of my life to be a part. To be in the crowd was the most exciting thing that ever happened to me. Based on the fact there is a serious problem in this country and the core of that problem is racism. Racism is a germ that it will have to be completely destroyed, otherwise it will surface and rebuild itself. My thinking of a million men all over the country, these men, such as myself, had realized that there was a problem in this country. There is a problem in the Black family. And, I wanted to be a part of the solution to that problem. Going to Washington, 00:56:00when I saw those men coming together that morning early from all directions, by the hundreds of thousands, I knew something very important was in the making here. And the results of it is this. We have had political power, but we blended our political power with White people's dollars. That's a bad combination. That won't hold water. That's like taking a sifter trying to clear out the Mississippi. Especially when you didn't need them. In my district, about 70% Black, if I get Black support, what I need with dollars? But, see that wasn't politics. And, I still hold that America still needs statesmen rather than politicians. Men that will stand on principal and not look back, but due to special interests of being integrated into the political process, it killed the 00:57:00force of the ballot. That 's the reason that the Democratic Party has been destroyed and everybody from the Democrats are going Republican because that's the trend.White backlash is gaining momentum.It's gaining force.

HUNTLEY: Why do you think that the Million Man March was so significant?

DAVIS: The reason the Million Man March was so significant to me was because this is the first time that Black men had showed that kind of strength. And, the results of it, if we stand together as brothers, for the interest of our country, it goes back to things that have already been said. If America is saved, it will be saved by the soul of Black men, of Black people. So, I feel that once we have completed our work. And when I say completed our work, there will be no present need for the NAACP nor the Movement organizations based on the fact that we have been able to destroy the strong germ and force of racism. 00:58:00This has got to be done.

HUNTLEY: Are you suggesting that that is at hand, the destruction of racism in this country?

DAVIS: I see it in my lifetime. I see America as it's going to surface. And, it is closer than you think. It's going to surface as Dr. King said, "look at a man, at his character rather than his race."

HUNTLEY: How then do you account for the ways in which White people versus Black people view the Rodney King situation, the 0. J. Simpson case and the Million Man March.And, most recently, of course the beating of the Mexican man and woman out in California?

DAVIS: First thing. Human resources, (Inaudible), the country must understand 00:59:00and accept that. In the next place, we have problems that have to be solved by people. And, the solution to that problem is coming to a mind of a child or a person that was born in this world. Now, it becomes the responsibility of government to cultivate every once of human resources that we have available. None go wasted. The jails is not the solution to the problem. Now, I feel that the Million Man March, when all the dust has settled, they are going to have to look at it and say, "What is the problem?" And, then, look back and realize that AIDS, cancer, a lot of medical problems, diplomacy problems with China and other 01:00:00countries need to be solved, when you only have had sources from the White community dealing with these issues and you don't know who God is going to give the solutions to those problems . Giants like George Washington Carver, Booker Washington was giants that couldn't be stopped. Dr. Carver was a man locked into his world and God has given every man, every child born in this world, come in with a talent that needs to be activated. My interest was to sell to the public. "Let's rid ourselves of discrimination for salvation."

HUNTLEY: Let me just ask you about, in relation to the Million Man March, the media consistently talked about "separating the message from the messenger." How did you interpret that?

DAVIS: Well, first place, the truth is very difficult to accept. Most people have a way of trying to shun the effects of the truth. Minister Farakhan has the personality and knowledge to speak his guts. And, once he says that, if he's not saying the right thing, then, there is a lot of people who are going to be offensive. I feel that he can't change that. But here's the thing that turned the head, one time I was almost skepticable of those fellows that had skin heads and nice Black suits and what not and calling the White men "devils." I was somewhat skeptical of that. But, here was a man that called for millions of Black men to come to Washington. And, by virtue of his call, and then the response exceeded what he requested, I knew God was working in that. It's not 01:02:00the matter of Minister Farakhan. God can use anybody he so desire. Minister Farakhan was a vessel in God's hand because no man in this country ever -- the only one that has come close to that was Marcus Garvey. And today, if America can't see the handwork of God in this movement, then we are totally lost.

HUNTLEY: Thank you, Mr. Davis.

DAVIS: Thank you very kindly. I certainly enjoyed the discussion and a lot more will need to be said.

HUNTLEY: And we will take time to say them.Thank you very much.