Patricia Powell Berry Interviewed on August 13, 1997

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Patricia Powell Berry for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I'm Dr. Horace Huntley and we're presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is August 13, 1997. Ms. Berry I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule to come and sit and talk with me today about Birmingham, growing up in Birmingham and the Civil Rights Movement. Welcome to the Institute.

BERRY: I'm glad to be here.

HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking you some general questions about your family; like background; your mother and father. Were they from Birmingham; both born in Birmingham?

BERRY: No, my father was born in Bessemer and my mother came here from LaGrange, Georgia. She lived with her uncle and aunt at that time her uncle was working at the mine. So, they were considered very fortunate cause she was an only child. 00:01:00If you worked in the mine, you know, you were fortunate to do that. He came here first to work at TCI and in that area and then he sent for her. Then she grew up in Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: Did he work in the ore mines or the coal mines?

BERRY: The coal mines in Bessemer, you know out there. Somehow they met and got married and he's from Bessemer. His people migrated from Georgia for the same reason.

HUNTLEY: So, both of your parents were originally from Georgia.

BERRY: Right.

HUNTLEY: But they didn't know each other.

BERRY: No, cause all of them came here for those jobs at TCI and in the mines.

HUNTLEY: What part of Georgia was he from?

BERRY: I don't remember exactly what part he was from.

HUNTLEY: She's from LaGrange?

BERRY: Right, her folks are from LaGrange cause we went back down there to visit them but we never did go to visit his people.

HUNTLEY: How much education did they have, your parents?

BERRY: My mother, I think, she got to the 11th grade at Parker. My daddy he didn't finish at Parker but he went there.

HUNTLEY: He went to Parker also?

BERRY: Both of them went to Parker. So, they decided to get married and start a family which I was the first born. They settled right over there in that area.

HUNTLEY: In Smithfield?

BERRY: In Smithfield projects.

HUNTLEY: Did he work for TCI, also?

BERRY: Daddy worked various places. Golden Flake Potato Chip Company; that's the one I remember most, that he worked for 'cause he used to bring potato chips home.

HUNTLEY: We'll always remember those treats. Did she work outside the home, your mother?

BERRY: She didn't start working outside of the home until after things got kind of tight and we had all these kids and she would do day work. I was old enough 00:03:00to keep the kids then.

HUNTLEY: What is day work?

BERRY: Cleaning White people's houses, ironing she would take in ironing.

HUNTLEY: Did she ever take you to her place of employment?

BERRY: No, I had to stay home and babysit.

HUNTLEY: Oh, ok. How many brothers and sisters did you have?

BERRY: I had five sisters and two brothers of which I was the oldest. So, soon as I got big enough then she went to work.

HUNTLEY: Oh, I see.

BERRY: Then I stayed home and took care of the house.

HUNTLEY: And you lived in Smithfield?

BERRY: Yes, at that time I was very young. I went to Lincoln. As the family grew the apartment was too small, we were in the largest apartment they had in Smithfield. So, the family kept growing so they built Loveman's Village with more rooms cause you had a bedroom downstairs and three bedrooms upstairs. I remember that very clearly and you had two bathrooms. We were very excited about that. So, they said we're going to move into some new apartments and only the 00:04:00families that were big had all these rooms. The place was brand new and we went over there and we just loved it.

HUNTLEY: That must have been exciting.

BERRY: It was very exciting. We had more room than we could use.

HUNTLEY: I've talked with several other people and they talked about the move from Smithfield to Loveman's Village and there was a step up.

BERRY: It was; it really was cause you had, you know, Smithfield was built years before, many years before we were born 'cause you still had the coal bin and you had the coal stove. When we got to Loveman's Village we had gas space heaters.

HUNTLEY: You didn't have to go out and get coal anymore.

BERRY: Right. It was a step up and you had two bathrooms instead of one.

HUNTLEY: That's really moving up to high cotton.

BERRY: Right.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember your first grade? Where did you start first grade?

BERRY: At Lincoln Elementary School, I remember that.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Lincoln?

BERRY: I remember being in talent shows and being in plays. We used to have a talent and variety show and the teachers would make us costumes and we would be so excited. Our parents would come to see the show and you just felt like a celebrity; made you feel real good. So, that's why I can relate to kids being active in programs and plays because it really builds your self-esteem cause it built mine. I just felt like a superstar. (Laughing)

HUNTLEY: Especially when you dressed up.

BERRY: Right. I think we were little Dutch girls and tulips and all that. I remember the teacher decorating the stage. My mother made me the apron and starched it real stiff and we had the little hats and she made the little clogs. 00:06:00I remember that so vividly because it was such a beautiful time.

HUNTLEY: Did you have Mayday at Lincoln?

BERRY: Yes, we did. I loved that too. We had Mayday every year. We wore all white, white shorts, white T-shirts, white tennis shoes, and white socks. We had to plait the Maypole, everybody knew what they had to do and you did what you had to on cue. I don't remember any confusion. I don't remember that.

HUNTLEY: I can remember actually rehearsing for plaiting the Maypole. You had to go down and rehearse. Then on that day, that was the biggest day of the year.

BERRY: Sure and your parents, sisters, brothers, and everybody ...

HUNTLEY: Everybody in the neighborhood was there.

BERRY: Sure was. It was a happy time.

HUNTLEY: Yes, it was. How long were you at Lincoln?

BERRY: I guess until the 3rd grade.

HUNTLEY: Then you moved to ...

BERRY: Loveman's Village and went to Washington.

HUNTLEY: How was Washington different from Lincoln?

BERRY: It seemed to be a little larger to me. The thing I remember most about Washington was my music classes, my art classes, home economics classes and I had a teacher, I remember her she was just out of college. She was so energetic and we learned and we sang, she had an open classroom. We didn't sit still all day. I remember her cause she was my first teacher at Washington.

HUNTLEY: How did you get back and forth to school?

BERRY: We walked every day. We walked to school come rain, come shine, come snow, whatever we walked. Even if your shoes had a hole in it your momma would cut a piece of cardboard out and put it in the bottom of your shoes and you walked to school. You can-ied a lunch at that time, you didn't have free 00:08:00lunches, so you carried sack lunches or you had to buy lunches. You could work in the lunchroom at that time and they would give you a lunch if you were old enough but you had to be about in the 6th, 7th, or 8th grade to work in the lunch room and taking home economics. You would wash the dishes or clean the tables and you would get a free lunch. By us carrying lunches, we were considered as being poor, so we would carry our lunches but it was a treat to eat in the lunchroom at that time, or either to just buy some ice cream. Now we would stop at the store sometime when we had a nickel or dime cause when you go to the store for people they'll give you a nickel or dime for running to the store for them. And you take that money and you can buy some treats with it.

HUNTLEY: What I remember most about eating at Riley School, we didn't have a lunch room, but I remember we would have milk and we would want chocolate milk. 00:09:00I remember that chocolate milk. They didn't have enough chocolate milk so we would race for the chocolate milk.

BERRY: You were talking about the milk when we were growing up, at lunch time if they had fish, I don't remember how the rumor got out, that if you drink milk and eat fish or eat ice cream and fish you would die. So, when the children would have fish for lunch then we would wait outside and they would have ice cream we would tell them that you had fish you can't eat ice cream and they would give that ice cream and milk away. That's when we would get that milk and ice cream cause they were afraid that if they put it together they would die. Now, where it originated from, I have no idea. I wonder to this day how did that ever happen and how did it ever start.

HUNTLEY: It was out all over town cause the same thing happened at our school.

BERRY: Fish and milk and fish and ice cream.

HUNTLEY: There was something else, eating watermelon and ...

BERRY: If you drink anything and eat watermelon that would kill you.

HUNTLEY: Yeah, something like that.

BERRY: Some man drank some whiskey and he ate some watermelon and he dropped dead on the front porch. (Laughing)

HUNTLEY: And the watermelon had nothing to do with it.

BERRY: Yeah, that used to be a rumor.

HUNTLEY: Now, you left Washington and went to Ullman.

BERRY: Went to Ullman, right.

HUNTLEY: What was that transition like for you, elementary to high school?

BERRY: It was beautiful. I remember graduating from Washington School. It was a ve1y big to do. Everybody had the same pattern dresses. My mother had made all of our clothes. She would get the material from Newberry's at that time or wherever they could get it for little or nothing, 3 yards for a dollar. So, after we graduated, we were looking forward to going to Ullman High School. We 00:11:00had been very well prepared so you weren't afraid of your education cause you knew you were ready for that. So, you became more independent. We used to walk downtown from Titusville; you would make your little change and we'd buy mascara, you know with the little brush. You would buy eyebrow pencils and lipstick. At that time they only sold you powder and we had no makeup we used powder. The only color powder they would sell Black people was called nutmeg.

HUNTLEY: What do you mean the only color they would sell?

BERRY: That's the only color they would sell to Black people.

HUNTLEY: You couldn't just go in and buy.

BERRY: You could not buy any other color. I don't care how light you were, how dark you were Black people used nutmeg powder, they wore red fox stockings, you had no choice. You wore red fox or you didn't wear none. You didn't have a 00:12:00choice, you couldn't look at the other colors and say I think this would look better on me. If you want stockings you would walk in and say I want a pair of stockings and they would give you red fox.

HUNTLEY: That's interesting, I've never heard that before.

BERRY: You didn't have a choice.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

BERRY: Yeah. I think the lipstick, I don't remember what color the lipstick was but see you asked for it. They wouldn't go through any changes to ask you what would you like because it didn't matter what you liked.

HUNTLEY: So, whatever ...

BERRY: The salesperson wanted you to have that's what you would get. They would tell you that, they were working in department stores, five and dime stores. So, these White people at that time they didn't have much more than you but, you know, this made them feel good to look down on you and to pull you down and whatever means that they could lower you that's what they did. I understand that now but I didn't understand that then. We had no choices. We had none.

HUNTLEY: Was Ullman, we're you still as active at Ullman as you had been in the elementary schools?

BERRY: Yes cause the first thing I did I joined the choir and we had variety shows that we had every year. They sold tickets and we would practice for two or three weeks. I would always get in the dances, you know. The first dance we were in we had the little frilly skirts, our parents made them, it was no problem they just made whatever you had to have. Our teachers would tell them what they wanted and they were proud cause their child was on stage. So, we had little shoes and we would dance. Once you were in the variety show every year you were in it and you would approximately be with the same kids. Then I got in the choir 00:14:00with Mrs. Gregory White, which was a very good experience and I've been in choirs ever since then. We would sing. I loved to be in programs. Even though we were poor, it was just something I was just proud of doing. It just really built my self-esteem. It really did.

HUNTLEY: In attending Ullman there was always this big rivalry between Parker and Ullman.

BERRY: All the time between Smithfield and Titusville between the southside and Titusville. That's why gangs are not new. The gangs have been around ever since I was a child. Southtown had a gang, Titusville, Loveman's Village had a gang and Smithfield had a gang. You could not come off of your turf like when we 00:15:00started dating I made the mistake of dating a guy that lived in Smithfield. He walked to my house and he ran back home (Laughing) because he was off his turf. So, your safest way, your dad didn't like you to date guys with cars, cars were just off limits, you rode the bus wherever you went. Then Southtown project they would ride through the alleys and they had guns, I don't kmow where the guns came from, and my daddy, I remember they would tum the lights out cause everybody knew they were going to ride that night. It was the gangs and he would make us lie down on the floor, I remember that ve1y well. It didn't happen over and over again but every now and then it would. The biggest violence they had at that time they used knives and switchblades that was the thing.

HUNTLEY: Maybe one or two people had guns but everybody had a knife.

BERRY: Everybody had a knife. You fought with a knife and it seems that they were trained to use those switchblades and how to use those knives.

HUNTLEY: Practiced.

BERRY: Practiced with them, right. So, you always had gangs.

HUNTLEY: Just didn't have the dope, the drugs that people are now fighting over.

BERRY: Right.

HUNTLEY: You simply were protecting your turf.

BERRY: You were tough.

HUNTLEY: In a sense you were protecting the community cause you didn't let anybody else come into the community.

BERRY: Right. They didn't want the guys from our community dating the girls in their community. They didn't date you but they didn't want anybody else to date you.

HUNTLEY: Right.

BERRY: So, they protected what they call their turf. They wouldn't hurt you. You 00:17:00didn't have to be afraid. Your doors would be open. You could sit out on the porch all night. You could go to sleep on the porch at night. Even at Loveman's Village at that time because the neighborhood was a family. Like if you had one potato and you needed two you would just send someone next door and you would get the other potato or you needed eggs, or grits, or onions. If the neighborhoods heard that Mrs. Josephine, she had about five or six children, and they didn't have anything to eat, the women would get together and take food over there so they could eat. The community was just a family.

HUNTLEY: That's right. That is a difference in then and now.

BERRY: Now cause there is so much pride, if you don't have, you don't ask. There's just too much pride. At that time we were all in the same boat.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your days at Ullman? In terms of your instruction, teachers, principal?

BERRY: I was in what they called an accelerated class. You had section A and section B. Section A and section B are supposed to be the kids that are possibly college bound. They call them the smaii kids. The average kids . . . now we took academics like biology, chemistry, and geometry, you know. The other kids were more into language arts, business, or vocational studies like they had beauty culture, they had art, they had sewing. We took those too, but they were more so into it than the academics. They had woodshop, tailoring, they worked in the lunchroom.

HUNTLEY: Did they have shoe repair?

BERRY: I believe they did. They were more vocational and our class was more into academics. So, they had prejudice because if you're in the smart class then the children that weren't in the smart class thought that you were more than they were. I guess there were five or six ofus out at Loveman's Village in those classes. The majority of them came from what we call Honeysuckle Hill. One side of 6th Avenue was considered the poor people's side and the other side of 6th Avenue was the more ...

HUNTLEY: More well-to-do.

BERRY: Well-to-do Black people like the teachers and the men that worked at TCI. Like you had a husband that worked at TCI and a wife that taught school, or nurses then they are considered to be well-to-do. So, they lived on the other 00:20:00side of 6th Avenue. So, about 75% of your class was from the well-to-do side and 25% would be from Loveman's Village and the other side. So, we would be in those classes and we didn't feel any less than they did. That's one thing, I don't think they made ... they didn't make us feel any less. It's what you knew that made you in those classes. Who you were, it was how you did your lessons, what grades you made. I remember we had geometry was the class that girls at that time, most ofus had problems with geometry. So, the boys would do our geometry for us and help us with our geometry to get through that class.

HUNTLEY: In 1960, you graduated from high school in 1960.

BERRY: Right.

HUNTLEY: 1960 was the year that the movement here, of course was established. In 1956 the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights with Fred Shuttlesworth and then in 1960 college students started getting involved with the movement.

BERRY: Right.

HUNTLEY: And they did that through voter registration.

BERRY: Right.

HUNTLEY: When you left Ullman what did you do? Did you go on to school?

BERRY: Yes, I went to school in Selma, a Lutheran college, I got a scholarship from a church.

HUNTLEY: What's the name ofit?

BERRY: Alabama Lutheran Academy and College now it's called Concordia College, community college in Selma, Alabama. It was a few blocks from Selma University. So, we intermingled the campuses did, the kids anyway. I was a member of the St. Paul Lutheran Church. So, my pastor was Elwain, Pastor Joseph Elwain. His father ran the school in Selma.

HUNTLEY: Is that right? Elwain was a White minister, right?

BERRY: Right. He was a White minister and he was totally, fully involved in the movement.

Therefore his members became involved, especially young people.

HUNTLEY: So, the Lutheran Church that he was the pastor of was a Black...

BERRY: Yeah, it was Black and that's what our membership was.

HUNTLEY: And that was on 6th Avenue.

BERRY: 6th Avenue right, 6th Avenue South. He had... he worked with the youth he had a youth department. We were involved in so many things with him and we learned so many things with him. His father was the president of the college in Selma, so, he was reared with Black people although he lived in Selma. The people he mostly knew were Black because his father was, what they called at that time, a missionary sent to Alabama to start schools for Black kids.

HUNTLEY: You said you were involved with so many things with him and you learned so many things, give me some examples of those.

BERRY: Ok, we had a youth group, we would visit White churches, mostly Lutheran churches.

HUNTLEY: Here in Birmingham?

BERRY: In Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: This is in 1960, early 60s?

BERRY: Yes, early 60s. In the 50s, we would go, he would drive ok, and we would go to Selma, he'd take the youth to Selma. He would take us to Illinois and different places. We were Black kids with White pastors in the cars. I remember we got pulled over in Kentucky, I believe, and the police took them to a little town, there was a little jail there.

HUNTLEY: The pastors?

BERRY: The pastors they took them to the jail.

HUNTLEY: What about the children?

BERRY: We were still in the car.

HUNTLEY: They left you in the car?

BERRY: We were in the car. I remember we didn't know what was going to happen to 00:24:00them but we just prayed and he came back out. He was really brave in our sight. He taught us songs and we would just go different places. It was just as if he was a father figure to us.

HUNTLEY: And he would take you to churches here in Birmingham?

BERRY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Black kids to White Lutheran Churches?

BERRY: Yes, right, he sure would.

HUNTLEY: Were there ever any difficulties?

BERRY: We had no incidents at all. I think the Lutheran Church was a little more liberal. We had White ministers and it was nothing to send a White minister to a Black congregation. Right now they have a White minister, Pastor Noon and he's active in most organizations.

HUNTLEY: Now you also helped to register or prepare people for registration.

BERRY: Right.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember when you went to take the test yourself?

BERRY: Yes, I do. They had somebody to train us for the test because they had 00:25:00gotten a copy of the test. It's like preparing a soldier for war. They prepared us and showed us what to do. They told us when we went down to not be nervous, don't look at anybody cause they would intimidate us and they didn't want us to forget what we had to do.

HUNTLEY: You were not to look directly at the person.

BERRY: No, cause they would intimidate you. I remember looking at one White man, he was..I can see his face now, he was fat White man, he had dark hair and I could see him just as clear as day and he snarled at me. I remember that they told us not to look and then I knew then why. So, when we got there and we sat down to take the...oh, they would just throw the papers at you. They didn't treat you nice, we were prepared for that, we knew it.

HUNTLEY: You anticipated it.

BERRY: Right, but we were supposed to be submissive, do whatever they told us to do, pay no attention to their ignorance. We took the test and when we came out, I remember coming out, and there were White people down at the bottom of the steps. I remember not looking at them, I remember just going on. We would always stay in a group.

HUNTLEY: Was this while you were in high school?

BERRY: It was between high school and college, somewhere between there. You know I would come home every summer. One summer I worked for my church.

HUNTLEY: St. Paul?

BERRY: St. Paul, right. I did a lot of different work for them, filing, running church bulletins and stuff. So, it was in between those times that I wasn't in school I was at home.

HUNTLEY: When you went to take the test did you take an oral test or written test?

BERRY: Written test. We were prepared for the written test. We were prepared for the tricky questions and everything. So, once we took it we came back and we 00:27:00trained others how to take it, at St. Paul church. Then they would take them down in cars. I do remember we had some freedom workers to come to our church too. I remember that.

HUNTLEY: Freedom riders?

BERRY: Yes, I remember them coming to the church.

HUNTLEY: Yeah, cause in 1961 the freedom riders did come to Binningham.

BERRY: Yes, I remember them.

HUNTLEY: There was a lot of turmoil around then.

BERRY: That time right. I remember them standing with some of the people of our church. I remember that.

HUNTLEY: In 1962, Miles college students along with the Alabama Christian Movement organized a selective buying campaign downtown and they kept people from going in to various stores because what they were attempting to do was to get Black people hired as clerks and in various capacities at various stores 00:28:00cause there were none at the time.

BERRY: Right.

HUNTLEY: OF course in 1963 was when the demonstrations took place. Were you here then or were you away at school?

BERRY: I was away in school. I was in Nebraska. I got a scholarship again from the Lutheran church. My parents were poor and I knew I wanted an education and I knew I had to get it one way or another. That was just in me. If I had to go into the military, I was going to get me an education. So, I was a diligent worker in my church and they sought scholarships for me and I got scholarships from the White church.

HUNTLEY: So, how long were you in Nebraska?

BERRY: I was there for two and a half years. Ok, in Seward there are absolutely no Black people. We got there and I wasn't used to snow first of all. There were a lot of foods that we had never eaten as poor Black people that I had to get 00:29:00used to eating. It's just like you were in a foreign land. When we would walk down the street the little children would be hiding out and saying hey there's a nigger. They only saw us on TV and they only knew what their parents told them. They would say there's a nigger, there's a nigger. I remember shopping at JC Penny's and a little girl was going through the clothing and peeking out going nigger, come here, there's a nigger. So, I looked and said BOO! and she flew. That was funny to us cause they didn't know.

HUNTLEY: Now, this is in Nebraska?

BERRY: In Seward, Nebraska. So, the thing was not only in Birmingham, it was everywhere. We thought we were the only ones. In the 60s, Birmingham, it just wasn't Birmingham. These people weren't used to Black people and the only thing 00:30:00they knew to call us was niggers.

HUNTLEY: Well, in 1963 you were in Seward, Nebraska and there's a lot of activity going on here in Birmingham. How did that impact upon you being from Birmingham and seeing, I'm assuming that you saw it on the news and in newspapers?

BERRY: Yes, I did.

HUNTLEY: Were people talking about it then?

BERRY: My sisters, every one of them. They were old enough and in high school and my brothers, they were all involved. So, that in terms involved me. They all went to jail. Some of them went to the fairgrounds to jail. I remember when I would come home for Christmas they would fill me in on what was going on. How my daddy was afraid that if anybody found out he was going to lose his job, cause he had to feed us. Once they got to school and walked off there was nothing that he could do, you know. Then it was to many at that particular time.

HUNTLEY: All of your brothers and sisters were in it.

BERRY: Every one of them that was able participated. My oldest brother, he's dead now, I remember he had an encounter with the dogs 'cause he told me about it. So, all of us were involved. Chris McNair was a member of our church also. So, when Denise got killed I was in school and I remember Denise cause she went to our church sometime and that was a hard thing for me to take and being there on campus with all these White people. There were only five Black people on the campus.

HUNTLEY: Only five.

BERRY: And you had about four Africans. At that time the Africans thought they were more than the Black people. So, they didn't associate with us. So, we were the only Blacks on campus. I had a hard time dealing with it at that particular 00:32:00time. These people treated me nicely but it was the idea that I missed my people and I wanted to be at home.

HUNTLEY: Did any of your friends there ever ask you about Birmingham? Any of your White friends ever talk about it?

BERRY: They never did. They only said they were sorry that things were the way they were. They couldn't even begin to visualize it.

HUNTLEY: The five Blacks that were there on campus, were they all from Alabama?

BERRY: Yes, they were all females from Mobile; Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: So, there were no males on campus.

BERRY: No Black males. The scholarships were given to the females. If you had males they usually went to the Seminary to become pastors and the females became teachers but they didn't get the scholarships, we got the scholarships. It was 00:33:00Black females.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after you finished [inaudible]?

BERRY: Well, I went to work. They guarantee you a job at the Lutheran School.

HUNTLEY: Did you come back to Birmingham?

BERRY: I came back to Birmingham. I went to work in the country, I think it was Catherine, Alabama.

HUNTLEY: As a teacher?

BERRY: As a teacher in the Lutheran School. See, these Lutheran schools were set up by White people to educate the Blacks in the country, you know, in the fa1ming areas. They were White only school houses at that time which was new to me. So, that was a history lesson for me. We had a big pot belly stove, you had all the children in one room. They didn't come to school when they had to pick cotton but they came later. In the meantime, the Lutheran church was building a brick school for them in which I was supposed to go ih and teach. So, if it 00:34:00rained to hard or it was muddy you didn't go to school cause the bus, we had a school bus, couldn't go up to the school so you didn't have school on those days. So, I got in on a little of that history.

HUNTLEY: How long were you there?

BERRY: A year, but when I got in there on that part of history I thank God that I did. Then I saw how it was to teach in a one room school with the little desks with the ink wells. The public schools had those buildings like Washington school, but the Lutheran school was still in a one room school.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after that year?

BERRY: I came back and I got married and I worked at Zion Lutheran School in Bessemer. Later I became the principal of the Zion Lutheran School in Bessemer. The school began to grow and I began to raise my family.

HUNTLEY: So, Birmingham then has been an attraction to you. Did you ever consider to not live in Birmingham or moving to other parts of the country?

BERRY: The only other part of the country I wanted to live in was Denver. As a student I taught in Denver and it was an all White school. I was the only Black then. So, Denver was friendly to me they didn't have many Blacks but at that time they treated Blacks differently than they treated Blacks in Birmingham. They had a lot of Hispanics there. The Blacks that were in Denver were the Blacks that were doing well. I saw very few Blacks that weren't doing well.

HUNTLEY: Did you student teach in a Lutheran School?

BERRY: In a Lutheran School, all White.

HUNTLEY: How long were you there?

BERRY: About 3 or 4 months.

HUNTLEY: So, that was the only consideration outside of Birmingham?

BERRY: Right, was there. See, I even experienced integration there. We as a group, we went to, there were five Black girls, and we went to White churches in 00:36:00Nebraska and sang and they gave us money. When I think about it these people didn't know what Black people was, they hadn't even talked to Black people. Really we were ambassadors in Nebraska, in that part of Nebraska. We went to Omaha where they had more Blacks and they had Blacks in Lincoln.

HUNTLEY: How far were you from Lincoln and Omaha?

BERRY: Ok, Seward was about 35 to 40 minutes, about as far as it if from here to Tuscaloosa, from Lincoln.

HUNTLEY: So, you were isolated then from any Black community.

BERRY: Right. So, when I got home I loved my people even more because it just gave me a deep love for my people being in this world where there were none. There was only five ofus. So, I would be so glad to come home.

HUNTLEY: So, you would come home twice a year?

BERRY: Once or twice a year. Some time we wouldn't. There was a White family that would put us up for short breaks, like spring break. We would come home for Christmas and we would go home for summer.

HUNTLEY: So, that then must have been quite an experience for you being from Birmingham and a school in Selma and knowing the whole system of segregation as it stood. Then being sent up to Nebraska where I guess you assumed that it would be a lot different.

BERRY: Right.

HUNTLEY: It turned out that it really wasn't.

BERRY: That we were the odd man out. They treated you differently. Some of them thought we were foreigners. I remember going to the grocery store and I was getting some lemons and this little old White man asked me, "they don't have 00:38:00that in your country do they", you know. I began to realize how far removed from them we were. They didn't know us as people, they only knew what they were told.

HUNTLEY: Exactly.

BERRY: I said isn't this odd.

HUNTLEY: We covered a lot of territory talking about your experiences. Is there anything else that we didn't cover that you would like to mention before we conclude?

BERRY: Basically, all of that was a learning experience. Through all the trials and tribulations my will did not....I did not lose my will to succeed. This is what I want to plant in my children. The children I teach in school, I tell them 00:39:00no matter where you are you don't have to stay there, you have to just keep your will and don't let nobody take your will from you. We were very poor, I mean poorer than dili. My daddy became an acholic and we would move from place to place in the same neighborhood therefore you stayed in the same school. We would move from place to place but I never lost my will. My aunt lived in Bessemer, she was a nurse, and she had the nicer things and just visiting her instilled that in me. That I don't have to live this way that I can do better. So, we made a pact that if I go to school I'd help my sister and my sister would help the next and so on. Through all that and I still tell my kids in school that I was in the projects, I worked, I cleaned White people's houses.

HUNTLEY: So, during the summers you did whatever...

BERRY: Whatever I could to make a dime. That was keeping kids. Through it all the will was still there, they couldn't kill that.

HUNTLEY: Well, Mrs. Berry, I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule. You've been very enlightening and very helpful for the project. We just appreciate your time.

BERRY: I appreciate you having me and sometimes it's nice to go back down the road from which you came.

HUNTLEY: Thank you.