Rev. N. H. Smith

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Rev. N. H. Smith for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is July 26, 1995.

Rev. Smith, I want to thank you for taking your time out to come and sit with us today.

SMITH: My pleasure.

HUNTLEY: I want to start just by asking some general questions about background. What part of the state were your parents from?

SMITH: Well, my father was from Monroe County and my mother was from Sumter County.

HUNTLEY: And you were born?

SMITH: In Brewton, Alabama which is in the southern part of the state.

HUNTLEY: Right. How many brothers and sisters did you have?

SMITH: Three sisters and one brother.

HUNTLEY: And where did you fit?

SMITH: I'm the third child.

HUNTLEY: The third child. Tell me a bit about your parents. What about their education and their occupation?

SMITH: Well, my father told me that he went to Selma University when he became a man. The schooling that he had up until that point was 6th grade. And, then he went to Selma University in 1918, I think it was, and stayed until he graduated from high school. And, you know, that was a great achievement in those days.

HUNTLEY: Right. And he was a minister?

SMITH: Yes. And my mother went to Mary Holmes Seminary in West Point, Mississippi. Maybe that name has changed. But Mary Holmes was in West Point, 00:02:00Mississippi. So, she graduated from junior college there. Well, she expressed many times that when she went to Monroeville to teach and perhaps school was where my father was principal, that you know, people used to run up to her and say, oh, Mrs. Smith, what you going to do with all that education, because most of the teachers in those days, had not gone that far in college. And to finish high school, you know, it was the equivalent of maybe to masters today. I think the curriculum was better and I think they were better educated.

HUNTLEY: So as a young person growing up, you were in fact, your parents being 00:03:00educated individuals and really being upstanding citizens in the community, that sort of laid foundation for you. What about your education?

SMITH: Well, I've never gone to public school. There was a school in Monroeville called the Bethlehem Industrial Academy which was owned by the Association.

HUNTLEY: What association?

SMITH: Bethlehem Association, Baptist. I think at one time it was called the Colored Bethlehem District Association.

HUNTLEY: I see.

SMITH: My community and this association, that district and all, they were quite interested in education. It was something that they promoted. And, I am told 00:04:00that at some point, percentage wise, you had maybe the highest number of college people from that area in the Black community. Percentage wise.

HUNTLEY: This is in Brewton?

SMITH: No. See, my father was called to a church, The Morning Star Church in Monroeville, Alabama. At the time of my birth, he was the principal of a school in Brewton, Alabama called the Evergreen District School. So, I was born there. And, then the following year, we moved to Monroeville, which was his home county.

HUNTLEY: And, how long did you live in Monroeville?

SMITH: I left there when I was 16 and I went to Selma University. Selma University at that time, you could begin in kindergarten and go through your 00:05:00bachelor's divinity's program there. So I went there in the 11th grade. I finished high school and college at Selma University.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about those days in terms of just your schooling, the way that you laid in foundation at Selma University as a high school and a college student?

SMITH: Well, one of the things that I've reflected on many times, chapel was mandatory. The second period of every day we went to chapel. And they would have some accomplished people from time to time who would come in and perhaps the most memorable one was Dr. Ralph (inaudible) Gilbert from Savannah, Georgia, 00:06:00whose father at one time was president of Selma University. And he was a tremendous mind. He had involved himself a great deal in drama and he pastored the First African Baptist Church in Savannah, Georgia, and that church, it has always been (inaudible) oldest Black church and this kind of thing.

But I remember him and some other guys, accomplished me who would come in from time to time. The literary society met every Tuesday. They had Baptist Training Union every Wednesday during the chapel hour. You had many things going on at 00:07:00that school that would give you some exposure to the arts and the sciences. Everybody who graduated from high school had to be in a Shakespearean play. It was a rich experience and fortunately or unfortunately, many of us, maybe in this state, who had the experience of attending, maybe we don't recognize the richness of that institution. If not now, at least at that point in time.

HUNTLEY: You being a high school student, really on a college campus, per se. I remember when I went from elementary school to high school, you always looked forward to going up the hill to the high school. How was that transition from your high school experiences then to Selma University, although you're still at 00:08:00the same place?

SMITH: Well, with the exposure to people who are already in college, I guess that enhanced the whole situation. It was just one big campus. However, it was very strict. Boys were allowed to visit the girls four times a month. They would give you first and third Saturdays in the afternoon. They would give you a few minutes after (inaudible) Missionary Society met on the second Sunday in each month. And, then you would have a social once a month, at night in the chapel. So I mean you could just sit and talk to your girlfriend.

HUNTLEY: You mean there were no dorms, no cooperative dorms?

SMITH: No. You could go to the dorm on the first and third Saturday afternoons. I don't know, maybe they would allow you an hour. But you know, we found a way to talk to the girls.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after Selma University?

SMITH: Well, while I was at Selma I started preaching. And that same year I had served a brief period in Mobile, then February of '49 I was asked to serve as an assistant in Clanton, Alabama. Maybe before '49 was out, or sometime in '50, I 00:10:00was called to Tabernacle Baptist Church in my home county, in Beatrice, Alabama. I stayed in Clanton until 1953. I met my wife in Clanton and we got married in 1951. Well, the Sunday I announced I was going to get married, the pastor of the church announced that he was retiring, and the church called me as full pastor all in the same Sunday. So I stayed there and I left Beatrice going to the Shiloh church in Montevallo. So, at that point, I had two churches. Union Church in Clanton and the Shiloh church in Montevallo.

HUNTLEY: How would you handle the two churches?

SMITH: Well, they were on different Sundays.

HUNTLEY: First and third, second and fourth?

SMITH: Yes, and, then in 1953 I was called to Birmingham. So I have been in Birmingham ever since.

HUNTLEY: Since 1953?

SMITH: Yes.

HUNTLEY: When you arrived in Birmingham in '53 where did you live?

SMITH: Well, I lived with one of the deacons who that same year started to preaching, Rev. George Harris. And I must have lived at his house for eight months until we got a parsonage built. And, then I moved in the parsonage on First Street South.

HUNTLEY: Was that at New Pilgrim?

SMITH: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What was Birmingham like. What was it like coming from Montevallo to Birmingham and your experiences in other, smaller towns?

SMITH: Well, Birmingham was a large city. But you had a lot of country people in a large city.

HUNTLEY: Right. You had a lot of migration from the rural to the urban.

SMITH: Yes. Simply because of jobs and this kind of thing. It was a tremendous challenge and I guess a great deal of inspiration came as well as, I would see him as my closest mentor at that time was Rev. Charles H. Parker, pastor of 32nd Street Church, here in the city. I met him when I first went to Selma because he pastored the West Trinity church in Selma. So, he was quite helpful. He 00:13:00suggested that if you're really going to lead people, you got to have a strong backbone. You've got to be willing to make decisions and not worry about who might become angry or whatever. So, and even within my own congregation there were those who would say now, the chairman of our deacons said to me, Charlie Moody. You know he said, "We want a pastor, we want a strong pastor." And I was only 22 years old.

HUNTLEY: 22 years old, coming to a city to lead a congregation?

SMITH: Yes.

HUNTLEY: In 1953, of course, Birmingham was a rather interesting place. In 1954 00:14:00Brown v. Board of Education decision takes place. The NAACP is operating in the state, did you get involved immediately with the NAACP or with any organizations that was community-based outside of the church?

SMITH: Not really. I came in, I was trying to get established. It was during this period, however, not long after that the NAACP was outlawed which gave birth to the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights.

HUNTLEY: But just prior to that the Montgomery Bus Boycott took place.

SMITH: Yes. It started in '55.

HUNTLEY: And, then in '56 the state outlawed the operation of the NAACP which 00:15:00leads to the birth of the Alabama Christian Movement and you were, in fact, a charter member of the Movement. Can you tell me just a bit about how that all transpired?

SMITH: Well, Rev. Shuttlesworth and I, by the way, he went to Selma University, also.

HUNTLEY: Were you there together at the same time?

SMITH: Yes. We didn't talk about civil rights when we were at Selma University. But, we came to Birmingham the same year. So, as well as Rev. Norwood, who also went to Selma University. Rev. W. J. Davis went to Selma University. So several of the men in the city went to Selma University. Rev. J. Salary went to Selma University. Many, many guys. I remember we went to Hot Springs together. Our mid-winter meeting of the National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.

HUNTLEY: Hot Springs, Georgia?

SMITH: Hot Springs, Arkansas. So, I said, I told Fred, I said, "Come on, ride with me." Well, I talked him into it. So we went and we talked a lot about conditions and this kind of thing.

HUNTLEY: What kind of conditions existed at this time?

SMITH: Well, Birmingham was a hard town. I've expressed it sometime that Birmingham was sort of like what they work with. It was hard like steel and dirty like coal. Rigid segregation. Mr. Conner was sort of "the man" and you were limited in your movements. One White policeman could speak, in most 00:17:00instances to a crowd of 25-30 Blacks and "(inaudible) you boys move off the corner." Something like that. And they would more than likely move. But now it would take 25 of them to make two of us move. It's an interesting scenario when you think about it. You reflect on it. There were certain elevators that you could not ride. You had designated elevators for Black people to ride. However, White people could ride on all of them, but you couldn't ride on all of them. And, all, when you look at a whole lot of things were so silly.

HUNTLEY: So now you have these two young ministers new to the city, who's headed to Hot Springs, Arkansas and you're discussing this kind of information?

SMITH: Yes. We talked about it. Because I remember that Fred has quoted that we were, maybe coming down the mountain over there and I think I said, "Fred, White people are always talking about our way of life, our way of life." And I remember saying, "Hell, we're here too." This kind of thing. So he has expressed, he said that many times. But this is the way we felt. I was not, I guess my upbringing made me interested in trying to do something about the conditions of the race, but I wouldn't call myself any kind of pioneer in the sense of being aggressively involved to be a leader or anything like that. We 00:19:00talked about it. We worked together. We shared our ideas and whatever manifesto that we came up with. And, we set this mass meeting, but you need to keep in mind there was a Jefferson County Betterment Association before.

HUNTLEY: Before the Alabama Christian Movement?

SMITH: Yes. With Dr. E. W. Williams in Fairfield, I think was elected president. But, nothing was being done.

HUNTLEY: Was this simply an organization?

SMITH: Well, it was sort of patterned after the MIA.

HUNTLEY: And the MIA was?

SMITH: It was the organization in Montgomery and...

HUNTLEY: That led the bus boycott?

SMITH: Yes. But nothing was being done. This is partly the reason I would say the Alabama Christian Movement was started because nothing was really going on.

HUNTLEY: I sort of distracted you when you were talking about you and Fred headed to Hot Springs. What was the trip to Hot Springs about?

SMITH: It was the mid-winter meeting of the National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.

HUNTLEY: Did that meeting have any impact upon what the discussion that you guys were having on the way up?

SMITH: No.

HUNTLEY: Were there any organizational efforts done during that meeting?

SMITH: No. You know when I think about, you would go like from here to Tuscaloosa and down through Columbus, Mississippi and across the state really 00:21:00into Arkansas. And, you really gained so much of the experiences of just making the trip. You know you couldn't stop at restaurants and all. You had to be extremely careful in buying your gasoline and this kind of thing.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever encounter any difficulties in traveling between Birmingham and other places in the south?

SMITH: Well, I've been denied the use of restrooms and, then there have been times when they were putting in gas and I would say, "Where's your restroom?" And they would say, "We don't have one for Colored people," they would say, 00:22:00because Black, the word Black had not come into vogue. So many times I would say, "Well, that's okay, stop the gas right there." And I would pay him for whatever gas that he had put in and go on somewhere else.

HUNTLEY: What do you mean you wouldn't buy any...

SMITH: I wouldn't let him fill up my tank.

HUNTLEY: But when you were going to someplace else, where would that some place else be?

SMITH: Well, anywhere across the south, particularly across the south.

HUNTLEY: But if you couldn't use the facilities...

SMITH: You know that became a strategy then. You know, if we find out they had a restroom, and if they didn't have a restroom, you just go on somewhere else.

HUNTLEY: Now, in '56 when the actual Movement has started, when the organization of the Movement as a result of the NAACP being outlawed, what was your role?

SMITH: Well, I served as secretary. I was elected secretary of the Alabama 00:23:00Christian Movement.

HUNTLEY: Tell me something about just those initial meetings.

SMITH: Well, during that period of time, tensions were high. It was that same year the Autherine Lucy situation. It was that same year that the Clinton, Tennessee school thing was going on that same year. I think it was that same year, well, I remember John Temple Graves who was a columnist for the Birmingham Post Herald, the morning after the, this must have been June 6, 1956, in his 00:24:00column I think he said something about "no time for sergeants." Rev. Shuttlesworth and myself were seen as sergeants and the other men who had been elected head of the Jefferson County Betterment Association, they were seen as more like generals.

HUNTLEY: Was that because they were older?

SMITH: This is the way at least we interpreted it.

HUNTLEY: So were there ever any conflicts between the two groups?

SMITH: Well, not necessarily conflicts. Many of us were castigated the following day after we organized because some of the people present in the organization 00:25:00were members of the Baptist Ministers Conference and Rev. J. L. Ware had been the president of the conference and back in the days of the bombings in Birmingham, he had been a voice to speak out against that. But he was not chosen in this setting.

HUNTLEY: What were your first efforts as an organization after the Movement started? What were you attempting to do?

SMITH: Well, we, the buses, the schools.

HUNTLEY: The hiring of police, is that one?

SMITH: I think that is one of the items you know. I would have to go back and 00:26:00look in the record because there were so many things, you know, the airport. I don't know, that might have been my case, I don't know. Because different ones. But you had buses, you had the schools and I'm trying to think wasn't that in 1957?

HUNTLEY: '57 was when Shuttlesworth attempted to...

SMITH: He and Rev. Pfeiffer.

HUNTLEY: Right. At Phillips High school and was attacked.

SMITH: Yes. And, then in 1958, the buses.

HUNTLEY: So, really usually when we look at the Birmingham story we talk about buses, we talk about schools, later on we'll be talking about the parks.

SMITH: I think during somewhere along in there, they must have closed the parks.

HUNTLEY: They closed the parks in either '60 or '61. Now, you being the secretary of the Movement, that means that you attended all of the mass meetings I assume.

SMITH: Unless I was out of town preaching or something like that.

HUNTLEY: Tell me. I've asked people this question over and over again. What was a mass meeting like? Can you just describe it?

SMITH: Well, a mass meeting was sort of like church. We sang, we prayed, we received the latest word on what's happening, not only in the community, but across the state, across the nation. We gave money. We kept hope alive. And, you 00:28:00know, after so long, the police department started sending policemen to our meetings. At first we resented it, and maybe we resented it all the while. But after a while, so what.

HUNTLEY: You were given a nickname. You were said to be, they called you "fireball."

SMITH: Well, that didn't have anything to do with the Movement.

HUNTLEY: It had nothing to do with the Movement?

SMITH: No. Deacon Davis, Deacon Richmond Davis who had a radio program on Sunday mornings, I preached at St. Peter's Primitive Baptist Church where his 00:29:00membership was, in Bessemer. Dr. W. A. Clark was the pastor. So he invited me out to preach and it was a tent night meeting. So the Sunday between the weeks on his radio show, he said, "You got to come to the revival this week." Rev. N. H. Smith, Jr., pastor of New Pilgrim Baptist Church is preaching and he's a fireball." That's how that came and that's before the Movement started here and people just never forgot that this was his expression.

HUNTLEY: You had some relationship with Vernon Johns. What was that 00:30:00relationship? And tell me who was Vernon Johns?

SMITH: Vernon Johns was the most brilliant man, I guess, one of the most brilliant that I've ever met. He thought about things seemingly that the other people never thought about. And we put together, he shared with me an idea and I agreed to it and we put together a magazine called The Second Century of Freedom a journal of goals.

HUNTLEY: You were co-authors of that?

SMITH: Well, yes.

HUNTLEY: Was this in Montgomery?

SMITH: No. No. No. He would come here. That was after he had left Montgomery. He'd come to preach at New Pilgrim Church and we would talk and he had an 00:31:00unusual respect for me. And he finally told me why. I would differ with him and this made him really interested in what my ideas were.

HUNTLEY: He has a very strong personality?

SMITH: Oh, yes. I have one or two copies of the first issue of the magazine. I don't have a copy of the second one. I don't know what happen to it. But the first one I do have.

HUNTLEY: I would be interested in seeing that. So, how long did that relationship last then?

SMITH: Well, let me see. I'm trying to see...

HUNTLEY: How did you meet him? Because he was sort of the person in Montgomery prior to the bus boycott, is that right?

SMITH: I'm trying to see when I met him. I don't really know. I know maybe in 00:32:00the late 50s I had an opportunity to meet him and we struck up a friendship. He stayed at my house many times. There was a member in our church who did some typing for him. I remember, I know one of the great sermons of his was "What to do with life." Part of that sermon might have been written in my house. He did it at Atlanta University commencement one of those years, "What to do with 00:33:00life." Accept it, affirm it, immortalize it. He was a tremendous force. He was the first Black preacher to have a sermon printed in a publication called Best Sermons. "Transfigured Moments" was the title of the message. Maybe that happened in 1923.

HUNTLEY: 1923?

SMITH: I think.

HUNTLEY: I know that you were involved in a lot of the demonstrations. Can you remember the first time you were involved in a demonstration? And how you felt 00:34:00about demonstration at that point?

SMITH: Well, you know, demonstrations were a necessary tool in those days, but for some people it was a great deal of fun. For me it was serious business. Going to jail was no fun for me.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember the first time you went to jail?

SMITH: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances?

SMITH: I was arrested on 6th Avenue North. Rev. Porter, Rev. King, A. D. King, Rev. Fisher, I was trying to think of the minister's name who pastored the 00:35:00church in Ensley, the AME Zion Church, I think. We were arrested.

HUNTLEY: So this is the first time you were arrested? This picture then is the picture that is sent all over the world, right?

SMITH: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Where the three of you are arrested and, in fact, isn't that the monument that's in the park now?

SMITH: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Depicting that particular incident?

SMITH: I don't know that happened in your meeting where they wanted, they decided to make it generic, but I said something about it. Somebody said to me that history is not generic.

HUNTLEY: What do you mean, now this, something happened in a meeting?

SMITH: Apparently, it appears that something was resented about our...

HUNTLEY: Now, wait. Let me, just for the purpose of the people who are not 00:36:00familiar with what you are suggesting. You are saying the march where the three of you were arrested, you were kneeling, this picture was taken. As a result of that, that picture went all over the world and became a very famous photograph.

SMITH: Yes.

HUNTLEY: The mayor, just prior to the refurbishing of Kelly Ingram Park wanted that particular picture placed in statute in the park, and it is there, but you said that is generic. So what makes it generic.

SMITH: That's what we were told.

HUNTLEY: Aren't you and Rev. King and Rev. Porter depicted in that...

SMITH: But it's supposed to be representative. I don't think our names are even mentioned there.

HUNTLEY: Well, aren't your likeness there?

SMITH: I have to go back and look at it because they sent me my head. Your pastor had the original sculpture. They sent him that.

HUNTLEY: His head?

SMITH: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And they sent you your head?

SMITH: Yes. And they were making the other sculpture out here generic.

HUNTLEY: Meaning that it represented everybody. So, in other words, it's not historically accurate?

SMITH: No.

HUNTLEY: Why was that done?

SMITH: I don't know. I don't know more than the rumor mills and this kind of thing. But...

HUNTLEY: But we do know that, that in fact, it did depict the three of you. You should really be there. Your head should not be in your office, it should be on your body at Kelly Ingram Park?

SMITH: That's right.

HUNTLEY: That then being the first time that you were arrested, how long did you 00:38:00remain in jail?

SMITH: Oh, I guess, maybe 36 hours. I mean it was exciting at first.

HUNTLEY: Why was it exciting at first?

SMITH: Well, you know, everybody was caught up in the moment. The eyes of the whole world was on Birmingham. This was Palm Sunday in 1963. I had not been arrested before. I avoided being arrested.

HUNTLEY: Why did you decide that this time that you would be arrested?

SMITH: Well, it was something that we talked about. A. D. and I would talk about it. Rev. Porter and I would talk about it and we said, okay, we're going to do it. And, we did.

HUNTLEY: So you actually led a contingent. So was everyone arrested or were just some?

SMITH: Everybody with our group. Ms. Katy Jefferson was in our group. Mrs. Pinkie Franklin was in our group. I think some of Deacon Givner's children was a deacon in our church, they were part of this group.

HUNTLEY: What were the conditions like in jail?

SMITH: Well, you know, it was clean.

HUNTLEY: How was the food?

SMITH: Well, compared to...

HUNTLEY: Compared to momma's cooking?

SMITH: Well, they give you plenty of Bama Jelly, that's one thing you had plenty of. They would get you up like 3:00 in the morning and see to it that the place was disinfected. They would disinfect the place. It was rather interesting. And, 00:40:00then after a while you can't believe. I guess that claustrophobia would start working on you and so somebody was there at the jail and asked for me. So I just told them, I said, well, although it was supposed to work out differently, I just told somebody to tell one of my members to come get me out.

HUNTLEY: So did you leave before Rev. Porter?

SMITH: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And you left Rev. Porter? How did he feel?

SMITH: I think King, I think A. D. left before we did.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

SMITH: Yes. He went on to the mass meeting. It was a big joke about it. I think 00:41:00Dr. King was telling everybody about these three ministers were over there in jail and this kind of thing and A. D. walked in the mass meeting. Because you know, most people who went to jail committed themselves to stay five days.

HUNTLEY: Were you arrested at any other time?

SMITH: The following Sunday from Thurgood Church. That was Easter Sunday.

HUNTLEY: Right.

SMITH: He was arrested Good Friday. So the same three. And I think maybe Rev. Lindsey who pastored Thurgood Church.

HUNTLEY: Well, in terms of the way that the demonstrations were acted out, we 00:42:00know that Bull Conner played a prominent role, some say even in the success of the Movement because of the way in which he responded to the demonstrations.

SMITH: I would say so.

HUNTLEY: Would you kind of elaborate on that?

SMITH: I think his attitude made us more determined. Whereas the Chief of Police in Albany, Georgia was much more, you know, he would just arrest everybody. And, Albany had maybe the largest number of arrests up until the time of Birmingham, maybe 1600 or 2000. But he would just arrest him. Well, when we got here, well, the Sunday that we went, on Palm Sunday, I remember Bull Conner was directing 00:43:00everything. And I remember him crying out "There's Smith." Well, see, he had not been able, I hadn't been arrested before that time.

HUNTLEY: But he knew you?

SMITH: Yes. Because all of the, he knew that I was a part of everything. He'd arrested Pfeiffer, he'd arrested Rev. Shuttlesworth. He had arrested several people.

HUNTLEY: He had arrested all of the officers probably with the exception of a few?

SMITH: I don't think all of the officers, but like, the bus riders. I think that 00:44:00happened in 1958.

HUNTLEY: Right.

SMITH: Where they were arrested. And I think there was something that had to do with an appeal once where Rev. Shuttlesworth and Rev. Pfeiffer had to stay in jail, maybe 35 days. But anyway,...HUNTLEY: You had made a conscious decision though that or the Movement had made a conscious decision that you would not be arrested at that particular time?

SMITH: No. No. Dr. King had always said, an individual, you know there was some people who would try to make you feel ashamed if you had not gone to jail. It was sort of a badge.

HUNTLEY: A badge of honor?

SMITH: Yes. But he said, I don't want anybody to go to jail unless they make up their minds to go to jail. So, by and large, I made up my mind to go to jail.

HUNTLEY: During those days of planning, what was the typical day like, during say between April and May of 1963, planning for this confrontation?

SMITH: Well, we met in room 30 at A. G. Gaston Motel. It was a matter of strategizing. We still would go, well, I remember during that period sometime you're talking about you may have four churches in the city with a mass meeting going at the same time and Dr. King would have to go to all these. And we would ask for more people just like calling for sinners to come to the Lord to get ready to go to jail. And there were those who came forward and those who came forward, they were taken into a room and they would talk about non-violence. If 00:46:00you got a knife, you got to give that up. And there were those who said they could not afford to be arrested because they weren't non-violent and, if the man would rough them up, you know.

HUNTLEY: Late April, early May, there were times when there were not really a lot of people involved.

SMITH: Well, it built up. See we started, it must have been April 3, 1963. And for six weeks or more. We had children crying to go to jail.

HUNTLEY: Right. But prior to using the children or getting the children involved, there was some... (inaudible) Young, and Dorothy Cotton and others, 00:47:00talked about why not utilize the children, because as you said, children, they were ranting and raving to get involved.

SMITH: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And, then they started to go out to the schools?

SMITH: Yes. Well, during this period, along with Andrew Young and I forgot now, who else, we would meet at the Church of the Advent on 28th Street in a kind of negotiating session. See all the negotiations did not take place at John Drew's house. Some took place at The Church of the Advent. I'm trying to think of his 00:48:00name, who headed the Birmingham Realty Company, what was his name?

HUNTLEY: Sid Smyer(inaudible)

SMITH: Yes, yes. Because I know that we met there once and he used the term "We're not going to become your social secretary or something like that. I think Bishop, the Bishop George Murray, I think he was, and I think maybe Bishop Carpenter, but Andrew.

Because I remember Andrew and I were talking one day. And I said this to Andrew and I meant it. I got the feeling some days that some people had no problem if 00:49:00the demonstrations went on forever. It was fun to them. To a lot of people.

HUNTLEY: Were these people that were closely associated with King? Or generally people (inaudible)

SMITH: I mean people who came to the Movement. I mean it was fun, you know, for them. And, then, you know they started talking about maybe branching out. I think some people did seek to integrate churches and I have met some White people who said they were a part of the contingent group that see to it that Blacks did not...

HUNTLEY: Were you ever a part of those contingencies that went to White churches?

SMITH: No.

HUNTLEY: What's your most vivid memory of that particular period?

SMITH: Well, I guess, well, there were so many. But, I guess it was the night that they bombed Rev. King's home in Ensley and A. G. Gaston Motel. And, how we stayed up all night long trying to keep people from rioting any more. It was on a Saturday night and it was, I think Wyatt Walker, his wife, the Woods brothers, 00:51:00Bernard Lee, A. D. King. Because we heard the bomb go off at the motel.

HUNTLEY: Where were you when the bomb went off?

SMITH: When the bomb went off at A. D.'s house, I was having something to eat at Gaston's restaurant. So, somebody said they had just bombed Rev. King's house. So immediately I went to his house. And when I got out there, there was an angry crowd of Black folk. Fire trucks was there and policemen and all. Then while standing, looking, we heard the bomb go off. Somebody immediately said it was 00:52:00the motel. So then, we come back to the motel. And, when we get back to the motel, all hell had broken loose.

HUNTLEY: What was the scene like?

SMITH: Cars were overturned. Some cabs I think were burning. So we sought to quiet them down. The troopers were basically stationed I think on 17th Street, I think. And, they didn't join the fray until after we had quieted them down. 00:53:00Because I remember Mr. Lingo himself when we got everybody sort of quiet and we was coming, I was coming back, up 15th Street back to the motel. I remember him grabbing me. I had on a sport shirt and he grabbed me and stuck a Carbine under my neck and he came out with this, what is it...

HUNTLEY: Expletives?

SMITH: Yes. These expletives. And, how he'd blow my head off. And that was a Birmingham policeman trying to arrest me. I didn't know who he was. He just said, "These men have been out here all night (inaudible)." Because at one point 00:54:00there was a house on 15th Street that was burning and we made a wall of our bodies, joined hands, that the fire truck could get in because they didn't let anybody in. That little, what is that little tank, that tank would only set people off. And a lot of times...

HUNTLEY: This is the tank that Bull Conner rode in?

SMITH: Yes. So we made walls with our bodies so that the fire truck could come in. I remember Captain Haley was struck that night with a brick.

HUNTLEY: (inaudible) police force?

SMITH: Yes. Captain Lee was out there also. It was a terrible night.

HUNTLEY: Was this the worst that you had seen in Birmingham during the struggle as far as violence was concerned?

SMITH: I guess there was equal violence, equal to non-violence on September the 15th.

HUNTLEY: When the 16th Street Church was bombed?

SMITH: Yes. Because, see, I got hit at, when Shores' house was bombed the first time, in my leg. And,...

HUNTLEY: What do you mean you "got hit?"

SMITH: Well, it was a, I was shot in my leg. And, you couldn't tell at first until, then you saw the swelling and when I got to the hospital...

HUNTLEY: You were at Shores' house?

SMITH: Yes. We were out there. Trying to get people quieted down. So when Rev. King's voice, A. D. King, when his voice, you know, (inaudible) he say, "Hey man, come on, let's talk to these people." So I went to step on a car. Well, the policemen were around the car. So I was going to get up on the car and talk. And just as I got ready to get up there, I felt this sting on my leg. And, I went to emergency at the University later on the next day. Because I, you know, it was just bothering me. And, Dr. Hamilton finally, I mean he couldn't...

HUNTLEY: Was the bullet lodged in your leg?

SMITH: No. No. No. It hit and it chipped the bone.

HUNTLEY: But it didn't lodge itself?

SMITH: No. No. No. So, finally the following day, Dr. Hamilton, they took me to Holy Family and he, it was really sore then. He had to irrigate it and it was, he couldn't deaden around the place because, I just had to grin and bear it.

HUNTLEY: So each time there was a disturbance, then some of you attempted to control the crowd.

SMITH: We would always, and even when his house was bombed a few weeks later, I was back up there on crutches.

HUNTLEY: A. D. King's?

SMITH: No. No. No. Mr. Shores.

HUNTLEY: Shores?

SMITH: They bombed his house twice, within weeks. And, I went up there and the 00:58:00guy that I rode up there with, when they got to shooting in those trees...

HUNTLEY: Who's shooting in the trees?

SMITH: I'd guess it was the policemen or somebody. Everybody scattered that night. Somebody was killed. This was the second bombing.

HUNTLEY: Somebody was killed?

SMITH: In that second bombing.

HUNTLEY: In the bombing? In the house?

SMITH: No. No. No. Who had gathered. You see, crowds would always gather.

HUNTLEY: Right.

SMITH: And, so, crowds gathered that night. Well, this fellow got out of the car. I said, "Well, I can't move fast, maybe I'll stay here." So I was sitting in the car and, then when everybody started running I could hear those bullets. Everybody started running.

Whatever that street is right down from his house. Whatever that street is, the 00:59:00car was headed east. When I heard all of the running, I got down on the floor of the car. And I stayed down for maybe a couple of hours.

HUNTLEY: A couple of hours?

SMITH: Yes.

HUNTLEY: You mean there was something going on for a couple of hours?

SMITH: Oh, yes. Man, this hill was covered.

HUNTLEY: With?

SMITH: Policemen and people.

HUNTLEY: Was there any physical confrontation between them? The police and--

SMITH: Well, in some instances, but I wasn't on Center Street.

HUNTLEY: You were off the street?

SMITH: I was on the Avenue.

SMITH: And, you know, I guess they had remembered the time before and, because 01:00:00we worked late into the night that night trying to quiet folks down. But they wanted to mess up whatever White. You know that was the truck route, I think, was what?

HUNTLEY: Highway 78 was the truck route.

SMITH: Getting to 78. And you come to the Black community, man they would attack, and threw you off the trucks. It was a time that particular night.

HUNTLEY: Obviously, you've had a lot of involvement and you have a lot of information to give about the Movement. Of course we won't have time to hear all of that today, but I just want to ask you, is there any other single thing that we have not covered that you would just like to add to this tape?

SMITH: Well, and I'm partly to blame. The Birmingham story has not been told. You've had people to come here, want to talk to people, but to me, the real history of this city, during this period cannot be told by somebody interviewing somebody. The real history had to be told by people who lived here, who felt the tensions of the times, who, someone who knows the meaning of segregation at it's worst. Someone who say the day-to-day situation, would be able to connect events 01:02:00and this kind of thing, and to be able to give some in depth insight into the attitude of the people, and the kind of people who were really involved.

The real heroes of the Movement have been totally overlooked. It's just, you know, I haven't read anything with any kind of justice. Taylor Branch does a fairly good job. But, to me, you can not deal with history in the distance, you know. History has to be sort of like, I guess this thing that Michael Jackson is talking about, "His Story." And, to me, this is the only way for it to be done. 01:03:00I think in the Birmingham situation, you need a group to work on the Birmingham story. Lola Hendricks, Georgia Price, you know, to name some of those still with us. James Armstrong, the Woods brothers. You know, to sit down and what one may forget, the other would remember and so that this real, this story can be told. Because Birmingham to me is still a unique place. At that point in time or when 01:04:00Birmingham started it was 1871, you know, people could come to this place, you know, two railroads crossed.

And, coal and steel mills and iron ore and this kind of stuff. And people left the country in droves and came to Birmingham. And, you didn't have to have brains, mainly brawn. And, people, started making this good money and it's been in the later years that Birmingham started taking on some sophistication and 01:05:00this kind of thing. But, it's unique and someone, a group of persons. To me, no one person and having been secretary, I just should have kept a day-to-day diary and I didn't.

HUNTLEY: Do you have records that you've kept?

SMITH: Well, well, you know, they was talking about getting an injunction against the organization. So,...HUNTLEY: Who was talking about getting an injunction?

SMITH: The authorities. Do the same thing to the Alabama Christian Movement. You see, they always want to go after your records. So, they came to me and I don't know where most of the records are. And if they would come to me, then I could 01:06:00say this truthfully. Oh, I guess, maybe Rev. Gardner or some of them have the records of those years. I may have in some of my papers. I may have some notes.

HUNTLEY: Well, we are hopeful that this the beginning of doing exactly what you are suggesting because what we are doing is talking to people like yourself and others who were involved and getting their parts of the story. And, hopefully, we will be able to piece some things together eventually. So, we'll need some more assistance from you, of course. Thank you very much for taking your time out today.

SMITH: Okay.

HUNTLEY: I'd like to do it again.

SMITH: All right. Good.