Nims E. Gay Interviewed on April 6, 1995

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mr. Nims E. Gay for the Birmingham Civil 00:01:00Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College, April 6, 1995.

Mr. Gay, I want to thank you for coming out and spending your time with us this afternoon to talk with us about civil rights and Birmingham because we know that you were very prominent in the Movement. Again, thank you for coming out.

GAY: It's a pleasure to be here, Dr. Huntley.

HUNTLEY: Good. Let me just start by asking a couple of background questions. I want to ask you about your parents. What part of the state were your parents from?

GAY: Well, my parents were born in Chocolata, Alabama. That's in Calhoun County. HUNTLEY: Calhoun County. That's near Anniston?

GAY: That's right up from Anniston.

HUNTLEY: Okay. Were you born in Birmingham?

GAY: I was born in Chocolata but they brought me away at the age of one. HUNTLEY: Okay. So Birmingham, then, is basically home.

GAY: That's right.

HUNTLEY: I am sure that you have gone back and forth between here and Chocolata quite a bit?

GAY: Oh, yes. Quite a bit.

HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have?

GAY: It was -- I had one brother and one sister. My oldest brother is deceased but, my sister is still living. She lives in Cleveland, Ohio.

HUNTLEY: Are you younger or older than your sister?

GAY: I was the youngest one.

HUNTLEY: Oh, you're the baby of the bunch. So they must have spoiled you then.

GAY: No. They didn't take time for that.

HUNTLEY: Didn't take time. What about your parents. Tell me a little about your parents -- your mother and father. What about their education and their occupations?

GAY: Well, my mother, she was a housewife. My father -- he attended Tuskegee but coming off the farm and looking at big words, when he got to Tuskegee, he saw 00:03:00the word agricultural up there and he thought that is what he wanted to do. But after he found out

was farming, he decided that wasn't for him. So he came on to Birmingham and became a brakeman on the Louisville National Railroad. And, then, he brought his family to Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: So he then was a brakeman and that is what he retired as -- a brakeman on the railroad?

GAY: No. When he retired -- when they laid off so many here in Birmingham, he migrated to

Cleveland, Ohio and he became an employee of Pharaoh's Foundry there. And after --

when he became of retirement age then he came back to Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: Okay. Tell me a little about your education. What elementary school did you attend?

GAY: I attend Hills in East Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: Hills in East Birmingham. And, after that?

GAY: After that -- I say we were the first to enter Ullman High School. Because you see at that time you only had Parker and when the Blacks were able to go to another school, which was Ullman, and Ullman we could only go there until the 10th. Then, at the 10th grade we would have to go over to Parker. So, then after I -- in the 10th grade I went on over to Parker and I stayed at Parker like two months before graduating from there.

HUNTLEY: Well, why didn't you graduate?

GAY: Due to the fact that was beyond my control. I was financially unable to do so because from 13 years on up I put myself through school anyway.

HUNTLEY: Okay. So, you were working?

GAY: I had three men who was instrumental in helping me go to school because at 13 turning 14, they encouraged me to go on to school if I wished to go. West 00:05:00Scruggs, Johnny Norris and the man called (?), they said "we will give you fifty cents a day if you go on and complete your education." So they were instrumental in helping me to do so.

HUNTLEY: Who were you living with at that time?

GAY: I was living by myself because my mother took sick and she had to go to Cleveland where my daddy was and so I was left in the house because I didn't want to leave Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: So, at 13 years old you were living alone --

GAY: Living alone and then my aunt eventually came over to stay with me. But, what I was doing -- I would go out to the Birmingham Country Club and caddie on the weekends and afternoons. That way I was able to keep a place to stay and then they would send me money back to help pay the rent. The rent at that time wasn't too much. At that time you could get any kind of old house for $6.00 a month rent. So, back in those days, things were cheap.

HUNTLEY: So you weren't paying $500.00 a month to live?

GAY: No. $500.00 a month would have bought the place. HUNTLEY: What community did you live in?

GAY: I lived in Greenwood, East Birmingham area. That was out there right at Stockham Pipe and Fittings.

HUNTLEY: Okay. What did you do after high school?

GAY: After high school -- my first job after school that was WJLD. I was the first announcer they had over there and that was 52 years ago. Then, after I left WJLD, I wasn't making enough money there. The radio was paying $17 a week and the railroad was paying $25 and my wife having children, you know where I decided to go -- I went to the railroad.

HUNTLEY: Well, tell me a little bit about WJLD. What did you do there?

GAY: At WJLD see -- you're coming into the stations then Bob Umbach was the chief engineer and what you said then to Bob was he did some of everything there. By me coming in he told me, he said, "well you have the voice of radio." So what he started me doing...coming in bringing on the best(?) and all those different (?) and all was there and he had me doing it so frequently, I said, "now wait a minute what kind of money do I get?" He said, "well I give you ten dollars." I said, "no, I can't do that." So they raised it to $17 a week and then I stayed there for three and a half months. And, then, I had to leave there because the station was in Bessemer over the court house at that time. And things were prejudiced then as you could find it to be. Jeff Bryant owned the station and they didn't want a Black man to even wear a tie at that time. (?) told me, he said, "you on radio, you gonna wear a tie?" "We cut --," they used 00:08:00the word nigger -- "we cut their ties off they wear it here." I said, "yeah and I am going to cut yours off too." He said, "well, now wait a minute, I thought you was a Christian?" I said, "So was Peter, but he cut the man's ear off with Christ standing there."

HUNTLEY: So you made sure that you got respect from the very beginning?

GAY: That's right.

HUNTLEY: How old were you when you got married?

GAY: Nineteen.

HUNTLEY: Nineteen. You were then working at WJLD.

GAY: No. When I got married, I started there at 19. When I got married, I went to the Louisville National Railroad. So I left out of WJLD -- well, let me see, I was working at a bakery, too when I was trying to work at WJLD because actually that wasn't a desire that I wanted to have. I wanted to do something 00:09:00that I believe could help me to progress in life.

HUNTLEY: Okay. So what did you do at L & N Railroad.

GAY: I started first as a helper. That was bringing those engines from Boyes, Alabama to downtown. And we would have what you called a round table down there. You would put that engine on that table and you do labor to turn it around. So what we would do, we would carry it down there and then they decided they wanted to send me downtown. I was a coach cleaner down there. There was a towel they give us. But what we were really doing, we were fueling up those diesel engines. It come out from coal engines to diesel then. And we would have to ice up those cars and, then, after that I went into -- well the war broke out and you had troop men. So they deferred me there to stay there and work as -- helping 00:10:00prepare the cars for the soldiers to go backwards and forward to Ozark, Alabama because that's where the German prison was stationed here -- in Ozark, Alabama when they would bring them over here.

HUNTLEY: So you then -- they would bring the engines in and you would work in the shop in preparation of the --

GAY: That's what I would do when I was a helper, I prepared them, coal them up and everything. And, then, after that when I got downtown I didn't have to do that. All we would do when the troop trains would come in bringing in the soldiers, bringing in the prisoners and bringing whatever was going to Ozark, Alabama where they had all the German prisoners stationed, then my job was to see that the coaches were serviced and all.

HUNTLEY: What do you mean by "coaling them up?"

GAY: When I say "coaling them up," that is when you had those old steam engines, you would run the engine up under a shot. And that shoot would let the coal come 00:11:00down and fill up the hopper back there. That is where the fireman would get the coal and all that the -- to fire the boiler up where (?).

HUNTLEY: Okay. What community did you live in at the time?

GAY: I was in the Greenwood, East Birmingham area.

HUNTLEY: So you still live in the same area?

GAY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: How would you describe your community?

GAY: During that time Greenwood, in Inglenook, was just separate. That's why it was called Greenwood and Inglenook was called Inglenook. Because on the one side of the track was Black -- that's where the Blacks lived. And on the other side of the track was where the Whites was living.

HUNTLEY: Okay. What were the occupations of the people that lived in your community? In Greenwood.

GAY: Most of the occupations for them -- if they hadn't been -- they thought was a blessing when you was a railroad man like my daddy was a fireman or something like that. But most of it was domestic work. They mostly would go out and work 00:12:00for the -- the ladies would work in these different White peoples homes. And, the men, they would work around Stockham, McWane and Vanderbilt furnaces and different places like that.

HUNTLEY: Did your wife work outside of the home?

GAY: No. She never worked.

HUNTLEY: Okay. How many children did you have?

GAY: We had eight children but my oldest son got drowned when he was seven years old. HUNTLEY: What was your community's relationship to the Birmingham Police Department?

GAY: Now the Birmingham Police Department relation to -- the police was just about like insurance men. If you had a shot house or gambling place then, he would just drive through there and you would pay him off; or either a prostitute 00:13:00house -- you just pay him off and that was it. Because some of the prominent men you have now in high positions, they used go to collect money just like a policy agent from different people who was -- if they was bootlegging, running a gambling house or had those Saturday night fish fries and all of that. See home brew was bad then. But now, people have beer. But back then they made their own home brews, they called it.

HUNTLEY: But that was illegal so the people had to ---

GAY: It was illegal so all they was doing -- they was just dressing their pocket and didn't care which way. And see that's why we used to say back in those days when the police would come into our communities -- when you see that sign "MUN?" We used to say that "MUN" meant "Murder You Niggers" that's what we felt that it 00:14:00was. We had -- you couldn't have no respect for a person who didn't have any respect for themselves.

HUNTLEY: So you didn't look at a police then as being protectors and servers of your community?

GAY: No. I looked at them as being more an enemy of the community.

HUNTLEY: That's very interesting. What kind of recreation did you have in your community?

GAY: Well, what we would do. Stockham Park was there. That is where we mostly go to play ball and various things out there. And, then, when we wasn't at Stockham there was a big old corn field in our community where the boys and girls would go out there and play.

But what we was trying to do, and by me managing the girls ball club and all and the boys ball club, we couldn't play under the lights. And we would see the White people playing under the lights down on 10th Avenue. So, I went down to 00:15:00City Hall and talked to Mr. Wagner. I said, "Mr. Wagner, don't you realize that --" the park then for the white people was on 10th Avenue and 35th Street where the trucking company is now. I said "you know playing out there in a... They had Black folks and you got some good White folks, good Black folks like me who ain't going to throw over in there. But some of them might get the idea that since they -- that y'all come out here and play and they see y'all come on, drive in and out, and we can't play under the lights." So then they decided to let us play under the lights. We were the first community that played under the lights. They would come from Ensley and everywhere over there to play under the lights because they began to let us play.

HUNTLEY: Were there special days that you had?

GAY: Friday and Saturday nights were our days.

HUNTLEY: And every Friday and Saturday night, Black people from all over Birmingham would come over there to play?

GAY: They would come over there. The teams we would have set up. Because some of the girls played for our teams they would become a part of East Birmingham in order to get a chance to play under the lights. I had some girls out of Ensley who played with my girls clubs. And, so we become united and other churches and clubs would come over to play us -- from ACIPICO and all those different places. Well, they got a chance to come over there and play under the lights which we though was something very interesting at that time.

HUNTLEY: Well, when you went down to talk with Wagner, was that Jabo Wagner?

GAY: That's right.

HUNTLEY: Did you just do that on your own or was that an organizational thing?

GAY: No. I did that on my own. Just whatever I thought that I ought to do. Just like when I went in radio. I just decided. I would say, "now look, if somebody gonna do it..." I was always taught if you want to do something, try to do it yourself, not try to send nobody else.

HUNTLEY: Were there any type of organizations in your community at that time?

GAY: No kind of organizations we had at that time. The only thing that you had at that time was the communist party. The communist party was trying to come in and take over and get the Black people to cover and be with them. The Ku Klux Klan, you know, they were already raging. So, but our parents would tell us all the time, say, now, "you know what's over here, but you don't know what's over there in the communist countries." So, they would tell us not to sell out because the communist people who would come over, they would try to get us -- At one time my father and different places he was working around, different men who was playing at plants, they would come to me and they would tell you, they'd say "now, what you got to do is help blow these places up." But, the Black people would not go for it.

HUNTLEY: So the communist were attempting to --

GAY: Overthrow the --

HUNTLEY: -- to overthrow the government?

GAY: That's right. And telling us what communist was and how good it was for us and everything. But, in the end they wanted to really control America, the way I could see it.

HUNTLEY: Were the communist then, involved with any of the labor organizations?

GAY: Well some of them they was, undercover. But, see the main thing where the communist really began to get a hold over here was that Scottsboro case. When the Scottsboro boys

-- when they took them off those trains and pretend that they raped those white women and so forth and then that give them a chance to get a better view of what was going on.

HUNTLEY: During 1930 or so, Birmingham became sort of the regional -- the southern regional headquarters for the communist party and they then went from Birmingham to many of the organized -- you know, the SWOC was starting to 00:19:00organize, the steel workers, United Mine Workers, the International Union of Mine, Mill and Smelter workers, all those were organizing and evidently the communist were good organizers.

GAY: They were because Mr. Hall that you read so much about, he stayed at my uncle's house so many times. When he'd come, he would come there.

HUNTLEY: Was this the -- what's his first name. I can't think of his first name. But anyway, this is the "Hall" that ran for president for the communist ticket?

GAY: That's right.

HUNTLEY: And he stayed with your uncle?

GAY: Uh-huh.

HUNTLEY: Was your uncle involved with the communist at all?

GAY: He said he wasn't, but I thought he was.

HUNTLEY: But he was a worker though --

GAY: That's right, he was a worker.

HUNTLEY: And, therefore, they usually related very closely to workers.

GAY: He was working at the Vanderbilt Furnace which later was torn down.

HUNTLEY: This of course, was a -- we're talking about the 30s and 40s. What's happening in civil rights at that time?

GAY: The only thing that was happening in civil rights at that time, you was -- a regular started the NAACP talking about the NAACP, The National Association of the Advancement of Colored People, and that was something that we felt that was giving us a chance to really move out. So many people that work for these different white organizations and all, they say "well, if you work for that, you can't work for me." In other words, they always tried to hold you down through some kind of money terrifying you -- where you couldn't make it -- that they figured.

HUNTLEY: Were you a member of the NAACP?

GAY: Yes I was.

HUNTLEY: You know in 1956 --

GAY: That was back there when Robert Durr was -- Robert Durr was over it at that time and then later on Patton and all of them come along.

HUNTLEY: Right. Well in 1956 the State of Alabama outlawed the operation of the NAACP.

GAY: And when they outlawed it that's when Rev. Shuttles worth came in with the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. That's when we got a chance to start. But the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was because they wanted to outlaw it and Shuttles worth wasn't going to hear that. And, when, Dr. Patton and them was telling them what was happening and talking about they outlawed it, he said "hell, we with y'all." That was true in our day, so that's why the Alabama Christian Movement was started.

HUNTLEY: It was started to fill this void that would have been left by the NAACP?

GAY: That's right. And what we had -- we had a lot of people at that time. They didn't know exactly which way to start because see, during that time, right 00:22:00after that, we was trying to start us a voters drive. At that time, W. L. Williams come over and helped us people give credit to somebody else who didn't in East Birmingham. W. L. Williams come on and help us to get the voters rights set up among the people over there where they could become qualified voters. Because when I become a voter, you know, you had to pay a poll tax at that time. And, they had different ways to try to keep you from becoming ..

HUNTLEY: Well, when you went in to register to vote, what happened?

GAY: Well, when I first went in, they told me, say, "boy, you know, what you want to vote for?" I said, "because where I'd have a right to protect my taxation without representation. That's what I feel that I'm having but at least I can vote what has happened." And they say, "you don't do it like that." So one 00:23:00thing about that -- I knew they told me how many questions they were going to ask me. So, you had to be able to talk to them so when they was talking to me, I said, "I tell you what." I say, "well I know, I want to ask you a question, because I know smart White folks like you know it." So I told them, I say, "I here about Paul Revere and the midnight riders and all of that and I hear about the British was coming." I said, "would you mind telling me a little something about that. I heard where they said where Patrick Henry said (?). I

said "were White folks ever a slave?" He said "I ain't got time to talk to you, go on, you pass."

HUNTLEY: So that's the way you got your ..

GAY: That's the way I got in there.

HUNTLEY: Was that the first time that you had gone?

GAY: First time. And, me and my wife went back the next week. HUNTLEY: Did she pass?

GAY: Didn't have no problem.

HUNTLEY: Was that right? What year was that, do you remember?

GAY: I can't tell you exactly what year, but...

HUNTLEY: Was this in the 1950s?

GAY: That's right. In the 1950s close to the '60. HUNTLEY: As Movement is starting to develop?

GAY: Develop into what we knew that we wanted to do. HUNTLEY: What was your role in the Movement?

GAY: Well, in the Movement was started, all of us was trying -- wanting to do something but, by me working with music as much as I had, then (?) Brown and I, we were first directors of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. And, then, Bernard Sneed and Carlton Reese came on the scene and we always wanted to be able to have the best qualified person for the job. That's what we trained to do in the beginning of the civil rights movement. Let the man who could do the job, do it, and we would be followers. So that's how Carlton took over as 00:25:00director of the Movement choir. But, in the beginning, it was Nathaniel Lee and Johnny L. Frazier and Mrs. (?), the musicians. And Mamie Brown and myself was the director.

HUNTLEY: What was your background in music that you were the director at that time?

GAY: Well, Dr. Henry over at Parker had turned around and taught us the Negro spirituals and music as it was supposed to be. And, then, I went with Streeter and he taught us whole notes -- that's was note singing and all of that. And, so, the rest of it just was a gift from God.

HUNTLEY: Did you sing with any of the gospel choirs?

GAY: Well, during that -- after singing with Parker High School Choir, then we went with the Singing 40s at the L&N Railroad. You see, all these places wanted to keep Black folks satisfied and so we were singing under Dr. Whetstone. Now, 00:26:00after Dr. Whetstone we went -- we started singing around with Arthur Love out at Evergreen Bottom and after the Gospel Harmonettes was organized and we were all listening to their style which they adopted from the original (?) Singers.

We all began to understand -- we formed the Gay Harmoniers then. And, people thought we were so good they wanted us to go somewhere. But we wouldn't follow no where -- Sam Cooke and all of them used to come and sit down and tell me "man, you can do this and you can do that." But it was not my desire to move so we stayed right here in Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: So you had the Gay Harmonettes?

GAY: We were the Harmoniers. In fact, we sung together for about 29 years. HUNTLEY: Just around in Birmingham?

GAY: We would go out of town in various places, Birmingham, Andulsia and various 00:27:00places, Tennessee or somewhere like that. But we never wanted to migrate any further because according to what they would say we could do and everybody seemed to appreciate the style of music that we were doing. Because some of this music we were doing, national groups started recording it, but we never took, undertook to the ...

HUNTLEY: So you knew Sam Cooke?

GAY: Yeah. I knew Sam down at Gaston Motel and talked to Sam when he was gospel before he went into secular music.

HUNTLEY: So, your group then, was sort of in the forefront?

GAY: Of the Movement? No.

HUNTLEY: Of the development of gospel music.

GAY: Yeah. We -- the original Gospel Harmonettes was the first and Dorothy Love Coates came on the scene later. And, now, the first people that was attracted in 00:28:00Birmingham was William Blevins. William Blevins, he was the first Black that ever sung on radio in Birmingham. He would come up and he would, although he was working for the Birmingham News, see WSGN was a News H. Herald station at that time. But all Black folks had to go up on the freight elevator. Even then, people everywhere were listening to them. And, then, the Gospel Harmonettes with Odessa Edwards and Mildred Howard and all of those became the Gospel Harmonettes because they had Vera, Odessa, Willie Mae and they were the original Gospel Harmonettes. But, then, Dorothy Love Coates joined them and they become a power house. Went all the world and everywhere singing, but all of them -- they all come back home. All of them living here. They never left the city.

HUNTLEY: Odessa Edwards was a teacher of mine out at Wenonah High School.

GAY: She was something else. She was really fireball and a speaker.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about the mass meetings of the Movement.

GAY: We would meet every Monday night and we couldn't hardly wait for Monday night to come. And, when, something would happen, we got where we have to call meetings in the middle of the week. But the churches, you couldn't get in them. You didn't have -- and some of them churches wouldn't accept you. In my community the 46th Street Baptist Church where I was a member was the only one would let you meet over there. So you still had a lot of "Nervous Nillies" and "Uncle Toms."

HUNTLEY: So, then, the mass meetings were accepted in some churches and other churches they were not accepted?

GAY: That's right.

HUNTLEY: How would you describe a typical meeting?

GAY: A typical meeting would be very hyped up. Because when Dr. Rev. Shuttles worth would come in and speak and they were speaking the facts. And anytime you are telling the truth, the people have to accept it. And, then, of course, you had the police would come in and sit in the back of the meetings but that didn't scare nobody because..

HUNTLEY: Why were they there?

GAY: They were there to try to find out what was going on, where they could go back and carry reports back to city hall. But, that didn't mean nothing.

HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of the demonstrations?

GAY: No. But, I would go to a lot of the marches -- I was in a lot of the marches downtown and all of that stuff. And, I was able to watch them....

HUNTLEY: Did you ever go to jail? Were you ever arrested?

GAY: No. I never was arrested because, I don't know. Well, a lot of times when they said let's go, and I'll be the first stand up in there, they never did put 00:31:00me on the line, I didn't know why. But, eventually I found out why later on. But, my two children, my son, my oldest son, Cardell, I would stand there when they washed him down the street with a hose. And my daughter, both of them were in jail. they went down there to Fair Park at the same time where they kept them, you know.

HUNTLEY: So you had two children to go to jail as a result of demonstrating?

GAY: That's right.

HUNTLEY: Were they school age at the time?

GAY: That's right. They were.

HUNTLEY: Did they leave school?

GAY: That's right. They left school. Because, see, one thing about it, what they would do, they would just leave school anyway. Because a lot of the teachers who are afraid, they didn't want to let the children out. But, the children would leave anyway.

HUNTLEY: Did you encourage your children to get involved?

GAY: That's right. I told them "a scared person never won nothing."

HUNTLEY: How did other members of your family react to you and your children 00:32:00being involved?

GAY: Everybody was in accord with it. My daddy, when he came here, he said, "I didn't go back to Cleveland, because he said, "down there getting on them buses--going to get everybody killed." But, then, eventually, he come around to understand what it was all about.

HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of?

GAY: 46th Street Baptist Church where I'm a member now.

HUNTLEY: What was the level of involvement of your pastor and your church at the time?

GAY: Well, the church, as we come along, as the choirs and all would come up, I was a minister of music working with the choirs. And, in later years I became, as now, Chairman of the Board, but I think they should have a younger chairman because -- what you need to do is lay a foundation for somebody else to come along. And, I teach the adult - the men's bible class there now.

HUNTLEY: So, your church then was actually opening the doors for the Movement?

GAY: That's right. Rev. Hester was the pastor at that time. He said, of course we had a Chairman of the Board who didn't want to meet. So. Rev. Hester say "they gonna blow our church up." Rev. Hester say, "well it just be blown up." So that was all it was.

HUNTLEY: So there was some dissension within the church?

GAY: Oh, yeah. About one or two, that's all. Everybody else was in accord.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember anything that stand out in your mind as related to the Movement that you may have been involved in that you saw happen during the Movement?

GAY: Well, when they burned the buses at Anniston, Rudolph Bailey and myself we were one of the first to get up there and Joe Hendricks and I don't know who was 00:34:00in the car with Joe. But, somebody came on and we all came to Anniston where they had the Freedom Riders. And, when, we got up there, the police, the highway patrolmen say now "we can't go on the highway with you, but we will take you here in the city." And they wanted to know how to -- who was going to take-- He had some -- we had got some protectors to carry us. Because they didn't know we was talking about the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That's who we was talking about. And, so, Joe Hendricks, put them on the floor of his car.

HUNTLEY: These are the Freedom Riders?

GAY: The Freedom Riders and Bailey and myself, we went on in one car ahead of them and they come right behind us. But, if they had of been thinking, all they had to do, you had to go through Pell City, all they had to do was block that road and we couldn't have gotten through.

HUNTLEY: Where did you take the Freedom Riders after you got them back to Birmingham?

GAY: They brought them on down to Rev. Shuttles worth. Bull Conner was ahead of 00:35:00him. But when he got to the church there, say "Rev. we got them in." But the only reason he didn't stop us was because they had foresight to go down 50th Street. Down by--and then come on over in Collegeville where the church was. And, they had on way to catch them then. When they caught up with them, they was already there. And Bull come, told Rev. he was watching for them for to protect them. But that wasn't the idea, but they just got by them. And, then, of course, it's all right now. But, Brother Hendricks carried them over to his house. That's where they stayed. But during that time, you had to be very careful what you let anybody know. Because you had people come to sessions just for that.

HUNTLEY: Were these both Black and white Freedom Riders that you picked up?

GAY: Oh, yes. They were both Black and White. They had quite a few White in there. And, when they got through with those smoke bombs they threw in there, 00:36:00they were about as Black as we were, but they were White.

HUNTLEY: During the demonstrations -- well actually between 1960 and 1963. In 1961 the Freedom Rides. I believe in 1962 you had the Selective Buying Campaign in downtown. Can you tell me anything about that?

GAY: You see, during that time when they was trying to keep, you know, from going on and buying anything--they tried everything they could even, you know, when they put the fire hoses on you and sic the dogs on you. Out there on 6th Avenue when the firemen turned the hoses on it and Bull was telling them to turn the hose on them, we prayed and Billups was sitting down there praying. And, only God kept that water from coming. The firemen were trembling more so than we were because the water would not come out of those hoses although they turned 00:37:00them on. And, then, when we got through praying and went back across the street, the water come everywhere. Now why the water didn't run, I don't know. It had to be someone bigger than you and I to .

HUNTLEY: This was as a result of the children marching out of 16th Street into the park?

GAY: We left out of from New Pilgrim Baptist Church and went over across down there in the park on 6th Avenue to have a mass prayer on account of they were putting children in jail and discriminating against us in every way. And, we knew the power of prayer because if it hadn't been the power the power of prayer, a lot of us wouldn't have made it.

HUNTLEY: Well, after all of this, what benefits you think your family, the community realized as a result of the Movement?

GAY: Now realizing after the results of the Movement, there is some negative and 00:38:00there some positive. The positive things is for me for instance. After I got through demonstrating, when -- being one of the first Black managers in Blue Cross was because of the Movement that we got an opportunity for those jobs. Although we began to see, like my daughter now, she's one of the tax assessors at the Jefferson County Courthouse. She wouldn't have had the opportunity if it had it not been for the Movement stepping out.

You see, some people say well, it would have been anyway. Yeah, God intended to it, but he didn't intend for you to get off and do something yourself. So that is the way -- that has actually happened and a lot of positions that we have, that we can do, we at least -- you get a chance to meet the man on equal basis.

HUNTLEY: So, were you one of the first managers for Blue Cross Blue Shield? One of the first Black managers?

GAY: Yeah. I was one of the first after we had about two come in there for a 00:39:00token and then what they wanted me to do was when they really, in a way, had to make me a manager because they -- Mr. Chamblin what had put the inserters into Blue Cross and you understand, he was just showing me how you do it, but they didn't have no intention of a Black man running it.

HUNTLEY: What are the inserters?

GAY: That's where you put -- they call it -- they inserts your rate changes and also insert your checks or whatever has to go out in the envelope. You have four to five stations there. In one you put a card, the other you put a letter and the other one you might enclose a check and the end of it, an envelope opens up and it automatically puts it in there, then you run it on through and it's stamped. It's ready to go. And, so, by me being able to -- they first couldn't 00:40:00find nobody to run it because the White fellow who was supposed to run it, he messed up and wasn't able to run it and they had to get a rate change out, which was a 100,000 policy holders, because Blue Cross had most of holders in Alabama. So, what they did, he come and ask me could I do it. Mr. Gentry saying "he didn't know nobody who could do it." He said, "you know it?. I said "no." He said "well, I guess we gonna to lose it, Mr. (?) wasn't there." Mr. Singer, one of the presidents come in and I said "I could do it." He said I was playing with him, but I wasn't playing with him,

I could do it. And, so, he had me to do it and I was able to run 95% of the letters without even having a hang-up. Then he wanted me to do it. I said "no, I will not do that, not for the same salary that you are paying me." So what they decided they would do then, they make me a "Spec 10." They would rather make me 00:41:00a specialist rather than make me a manager.

HUNTLEY: What year, approximately was that?

GAY: Oh, that was approximately, I reckon I worked as a specialist from about '69 until about '80.

HUNTLEY: So this, in fact, is as result of the Movement.

GAY: Then, after -- see all of that helped me along because then they didn't find out that I was active as I was until it was too late.

HUNTLEY: Do you think that if they had know that you were active would you have had a job?

GAY: Really, seriously, I don't believe that I would have. Because the thing about it, always being able to meet a person with a smile and treat them like you want them to treat you. That helped me to be able to meet a man and meet him on his same basis and didn't hate him for the things that I knew that he had 00:42:00done that was detrimental to my welfare. But, so, anyway, they thought, I guess I was one of the good old boys.

HUNTLEY: You said two of your children went to jail? How long did they stay in jail?

GAY: They stayed in there four days. One of them stayed five.

HUNTLEY: And you actually saw your son hit with the water hoses. What was that like, seeing your son?

GAY: You know, that is the time you have to really control yourself. Because it wouldn't have been nothing to run up beside those firemen and policemen's heads. I figured we could have won that battle with violence. But, see there's a hereafter that tomorrow you have to start with the same thing.

HUNTLEY: So you had to have a lot of self-control to see your child hit with the water?

GAY: More so than ever, then.

HUNTLEY: Was that the hardest thing for you to do during the movement?

GAY: That was one of the hardest things to accept. Although bringing, sometimes getting the children out of these different schools, Carver and all of them and bringing them over there, where they can get in the demonstration, that wasn't no problem. We just do that anyway because James Bevill needed help. But one thing about it, the communities were more together then. You didn't find many -- you find more people I feel, today, afraid of their jobs and their welfare than you found people back then.

HUNTLEY: You found more today that are afraid of their jobs?

GAY: That's right.

HUNTLEY: Afraid of losing their jobs than you did at that time?

GAY: That's right. That's my opinion because you go into so many establishments and things where people are trying to do something and what do you find? You find us selling each other out just for a position or what they think is a 00:44:00position of monetary values. When I feel that each and every one, if you got something, that if you are right, stand on right and reach out and touch somebody's life and that same touch will come back to you.

HUNTLEY: How do you think the Movement has changed over time?

GAY: It's changed because it don't have the strength or the will power or the people. Anything you have, the people has to be a part of it. There is strength in numbers. And so many of our young people today, they think they got it made. All they want to do, a lot of them,

now we have a lot of young people who is trying to educate their head and sanctify the house but you find so many that's not. You find so many young people they think because they can ride around in loud cars and all of that 00:45:00stuff and put a piece of jewelry around their neck that that's the answer. And, the parent, in my opinion, the reason the children is not doing no more than they are, is because the parent who came along in my day and afterwards, they are trying to relive the life that they didn't live. And, see, anytime you don't live a decent life in front of a child, the child is not going to live a decent life in front of nobody else. Because I, people ask me, a lot of times, "how come your children never been in any trouble." I say, "they are not my children in the first place, they're God's." And when you let them know that and let them know that he's the only one that can do anything for you and don't let them run you, then you will be successful in keeping them from doing what they should have done. No, don't get yourself the credit, because it's not you.

HUNTLEY: Do you ever remember any of the people who were associated with those that guarded the various homes?

GAY: Yeah. John L. Lewis he was right there when they blowed -- he was one of the ones throwed the bomb from up against Bethel Baptist Church when it was blown up there. Colonel Stone was there but those guys were the ones who throwed it away and this other guy, he was there. His name won't come to me right now and me and him meet each other all the time.

HUNTLEY: But you are familiar with those guys who were...

GAY: Yeah. Most all of them because I was at every meeting. HUNTLEY: You were at every mass meeting?

GAY: Every mass meeting.

HUNTLEY: Never missed a Monday night?

GAY: Didn't miss a Monday night. Looked forward to the Monday nights and was trying to do what can we do to help the cause.

HUNTLEY: Is there anything else you would like to add that we really hadn't 00:47:00dealt with today?

GAY: The only thing that I would add that we haven't dealt with today, is now we know what

the problem is now let's do something about it. You know, we need to eliminate the problem. The problem now is we have lost strength as people, I won't say Black people, as people whole, we have lost strength. We need to come together and progress as America should and stop trying to fight the civil war all over again.

HUNTLEY: What do you mean by "stop trying to fight the civil war over?"

GAY: All right. When I was saying about fighting the civil war all over again, you got the White man still trying to push you back because he feel you are inferior to him and you know that you're not and you retaliate by doing 00:48:00something that is detrimental to you and him. And, that way, nobody is doing anything. In fact, we are holding each other down in America. Everything you see now, that's why it's going out of the country and going to other people because we have become greedy and I think that we have an ego crutch.

HUNTLEY: An ego crutch?

GAY: That's what I feel as I go about from day to day and see so many people in so many things and sometimes now being -- doing this old time gospel at WAYE radio, say I do that on the weekend from 5:00 - 8:00 because we have turned around and we have let everything that we have -- we trying to let the Negro spirituals go. We trying to let the folk songs go. We are throwing everything away even when you used to come to colleges, you know you was going to find the history of music there. You don't find it anymore.

HUNTLEY: There is one other think that I wanted to ask you. You mentioned that L & N supported gospel singing. Did you say that?

GAY: They had a choir -- they had a mens choir with W. W. Whetstone directing it. Rev. (?) all of us was a part of that group. And that was -- the plant -- they supported that.

HUNTLEY: Did other businesses, other plants have choirs as well?

GAY: ACIPICO had one and I don't know whether Stockham had...yes Stockham did have one. Because, you see, that was giving different activities for you to do to keep you satisfied see. The White man thought then that if you was in church, you was good. If you was singing spirituals you weren't going to do him harm. But see...

HUNTLEY: So you are saying that's part of the pacification program?

GAY: They were just putting a pacifier in your mouth like you put a pacifier in a baby's mouth.

GAY: So, they sponsored singing groups and they sponsored baseball teams? GAY: That's right.

HUNTLEY: And this is all part of that program that you feel is part of the pacification program?

GAY: That's right.

HUNTLEY: Well, Mr. Gay, I certainly appreciate you taking the time out today.

GAY: It was a blessing to be able to come out Dr. Huntley and maybe one day we will be able to see a brighter day ahead. I know it's a brighter day ahead, but the main thing, where can we grab on and stop this riding because we can't (?)

HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. I appreciate you taking the time.

GAY: All right. Thank you.