Rev. Milton Stollenwerck Interviewed on June 4, 1997

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Reverend Milton Stollenwerck for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I'm Dr. Horace Huntley presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is June 4, 1997. Thank you Reverend Stollenwerck for taking time out of your schedule to come and sit and talk with me today about Birmingham and the movement. I just want to talk initially, ask you a couple of questions about your background, your family, your mother and father. You were born in Birmingham?

STOLLENWERCK: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Were your mother and father from Birmingham?

STOLLENWERCK: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Originally?

STOLLENWERCK: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

STOLLENWERCK: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Well, where were their folks from?

STOLLENWERCK: Selma and Greensboro. My mother's mother came from Selma. My 00:01:00mother's father came from Greensboro. Now on my daddy's side both of them came from down around Greensboro. That's Alabama.

HUNTLEY: Right, ok, not North Carolina. So, you are Birmingham born, you've been here all your life.

STOLLENWERCK: Yes sir.

HUNTLEY: What community to did you grow up in?

STOLLENWERCK: I was born and reared in the Smithfield community.

HUNTLEY: Smithfield. Now, Smithfield of course is an old community and a very noted community. What was it like growing up in Smithfield?

STOLLENWERCK: Well, Smithfield was a harsh part of unpaved roads, the railroad 00:02:00tracks, the Italian grocery stores on every corner. I suspect about the best thing we had in Smithfield was Parker High School. Of course, during that time for Blacks there was only one high school in the city of Birmingham. Now there, I don't want to get ahead of you, but there we believed in academic excellence as opposed to what appears to be the situation now. Not at Parker High School, 00:03:00in the educational system period. Or systems. Somehow it seemed to have gotten removed from...

HUNTLEY: Yeah, we want to talk about that in a little bit because I think that's significant. That's very significant to look at what Parker was like at one period in our history and then what our school system happens to look like now. Where did you start school? Where did you start first grade?

STOLLENWERCK: At Lincoln, Lincoln Elementary School.

HUNTLEY: Is there anything that stands out in your mind about your days at Lincoln?

STOLLENWERCK: Well, we were disciplined, well-disciplined and it was none of this yeah and nah, you had to do it correctly; yes ma'am, yes sir or no ma'am, 00:04:00no sir. And then you were prompted to excel. We couldn't do less than to be our very best at Lincoln School. Of course I stayed there I think through the sixth grade and I was living in the middle of two school areas and I chose to go to Tuggle. I graduated from Tuggle.

HUNTLEY: Why did you choose Tuggle versus the other school? Did Lincoln go to the 8th grade at that time?

STOLLENWERCK: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Ok, why did you choose Tuggle over Lincoln?

STOLLENWERCK: Personal problems. When I got there I found things to my liking.

HUNTLEY: Were these personal problems, problems in the school with other 00:05:00students or with teachers?

STOLLENWERCK: Problems with the other students, more than anything else.

HUNTLEY: Oh, ok.

STOLLENWERCK: I didn't particularly care for the environment and being reared by my grandmother she allowed me to change. I got up there and found out... you know believe it or not, all of the administration were, to borrow a [inaudible], they were gung ho on excellence and respect.

HUNTLEY: At both schools?

STOLLENWERCK: Yes, Yes. And responsibility, they believed if you said you were going to do something at 9:00, you did that at 9:00. My grandmother said if you have an appointment for 1:30, for example, you oughta be there at least by 1:15. 00:06:00Don't be late. You don't have a reason to be late. That's in my bones.

HUNTLEY: That promptness being a virtue. Let me ask you, just a minute about your mother and father. They were born here in Birmingham. Tell me about there educational background.

STOLLENWERCK: They were high school graduates.

HUNTLEY: Did they go to Parker, to Industrial High?

STOLLENWERCK: Yes, yes. They, and I don't know how to put this, my dad... now times were hard. My dad left and went to Cleveland, Ohio. He said that when he 00:07:00was established he would come back after his family; two children, a boy and a girl and our mother. Something intervened there, he never got back.

HUNTLEY: How old were you when he left?

STOLLENWERCK: Very young.

HUNTLEY: In elementary school?

STOLLENWERCK: No, I hadn't started school.

HUNTLEY: Oh, I see.

STOLLENWERCK: Ok, my mother died when I was nine and that's where my grandmother, my maternal grandmother, came into the picture. She really took care of us.

HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your mother and father do, as well as your grandmother?

STOLLENWERCK: Well, I don't know that my mother ever did any work. I'm almost sure she must have, but you understand now that I was just nine years old. My 00:08:00daddy was a mechanic for General Motors out in Cleveland.

HUNTLEY: Did your grandmother work?

STOLLENWERCK: She was a domestic, a domestic over on Highland or Southside.

HUNTLEY: So, there were two of you, a boy and a girl.

STOLLENWERCK: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Was your sister older or younger than you?

STOLLENWERCK: She was younger.

HUNTLEY: And, your grandmother allowed you to go to Tuggle to finish elementary school. Is there anything that stands out in your mind about your experiences at Tuggle?

STOLLENWERCK: (Laughing) For one reason or another I almost fell through the cracks. This is something I have not publicized really, for no particular reason. I started from time to time going to the Grand Theater, going to the 00:09:00Frollie Theater.

HUNTLEY: In elementary school?

STOLLENWERCK: Yes, when I should have been in school. There was a woman by the name of Carrie Bell McQueen, C.B. McQueen. She was an attendance officer and any time you were in there looking at the vaudeville in the Frollie and somebody caught sight of Ms. McQueen, all you had to do was say Ms. McQueen and they cleared that thing out. So, I began to loose to many days and Buddy Hudson, who was the principal at that time, sent me home. He wanted my grandmother to know what I was doing. When I got home she said well, I can't go up there with you now I gotta work. So, we went to the neighbors house and used the telephone and 00:10:00Buddy Hudson said come to my house when you get off of work Mrs. Parker, you come to my house.

HUNTLEY: Did he live in the community?

STOLLENWERCK: Yes, he lived between my house and the school. We went up there that evening. Buddy Hudson said to me, "young man I don't believe you want to go to school." At that time I don't think it made much difference, to tell you the truth, but I said, "yes sir, yes sir I want to go to school." I'm gonna give you one more chance, the very next time you get involved in any kind of thing, you are out for good. And I looked at momma and she dropped her head and I could see a tear. I said I'm gonna do better than this.

HUNTLEY: Made a decision right there.

STOLLENWERCK: Made the decision right there, because it was hurting her too much and she had gone way out of the way to look out for me. I finished Tuggle.

HUNTLEY: What grade were you in when that happened? Were you in sixth or seventh?

STOLLENWERCK: Probably the seventh, hadn't been up there I think too long. Then I began to get a hold of the situation and myself.

HUNTLEY: When you arrived at Parker, were you involved in any extracurricular activities?

STOLLENWERCK: I sang in the choir, I played in the band, I participated in several contests as they were sponsored by the, let me see, what is that, the Independent Benevolent Organization of Elks, I believe they call it. They still have their house down on 8th Avenue and 12th Street North. I went to several 00:12:00states with the Elks for their conventions, playing in the band. Under the direction of Fess Whatley.

HUNTLEY: Oh, ok, so you studied under Fess Whatley.

STOLLENWERCK: Yeah, but I played in the band under George Hudson, but for this special occasion, or these special occasions, we were under Fess Whatley.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Fess Whatley? Him personally?

STOLLENWERCK: I thought the world of him. I got close to him because when I entered high school... well first of all, when I went to high school, instead of going to the main building there was a situation adjacent to the Lincoln Elementary School that they called the annex. The 9th grade students always went to the annex and then to the main building. When I was in the 10th grade at the 00:13:00main building, Fess had... he was John Tuggle Whatley, he had a brother who was Peter Bradford Whatley. They assigned me to Peter's upholstery class. I was going in rather tattered. My clothes, and at one point Peter said I have a bunch of suits that I've discarded, you may have them if you want them. Now Melvin Caswell was the tailoring teacher and their rooms were next door to each other. So, Peter Whatley went to Melvin and told him my situation and gave those 00:14:00clothes to him and told him to alter them, since he was teaching tailoring. For one reason or another, it seemed to me that John Whatley took a liking to me. In fact we were so close that many folks on the staff thought that we were family. He was liberal; we're talking about Fess Whatley now, liberal, but forward and direct. And, everybody in fact on the campus was his children. When he spoke...

HUNTLEY: Everybody listened.

STOLLENWERCK: Every rat went in his hole. (Laughing)

HUNTLEY: That's very interesting. Of course Fess Whatley stands out as far as 00:15:00music is concerned and you having the opportunity to actually study with him is quite an accomplishment What did you do after high school?

STOLLENWERCK: Well, I had learned upholstery. My grandmother was a domestic, as I told you. She did the laundry for those high powered Jews on Highland. On weekends I would go to their houses and rake leaves and wash windows and these kinds of things. After 3 years in Whatley's upholstery class I thought I had learned enough to use that as my vocation. This lady called for me to come do some work around her house and I told my grandmother you tell her I'm not coming 00:16:00because I have a trade and I'm going into my trade. I went into business. In fact, when I graduated from high school I had five scholarships, music scholarships, but my financial circumstances wouldn't allow me to participate in them. However, I did go out to Miles College. I stayed out there two quarters. I left Miles and went into business. Two years later I was hired by the Jefferson 00:17:00County Board of Education, under special circumstances, in the Veterans program. It was then that I started working on my college education.

HUNTLEY: And did you do that at Miles?

STOLLENWERCK: No. I stayed at Miles, as I said before, about two quarters and then I went to Alabama A & M. There I acquired service and earned the B.S. degree.

HUNTLEY: While in the service?

STOLLENWERCK: Yes.

HUNTLEY: So, where did ....

STOLLENWERCK: See I was hired under an emergency teaching certificate.

HUNTLEY: That's right.

STOLLENWERCK: And then, when I finished that some two years later I went to Alabama State. There I earned the M.A.E. degree. That's the Master's in 00:18:00education degree.

HUNTLEY: Did you, after the 2 semesters at Miles, did you go to the military?

STOLLENWERCK: No, no, I never went to the service.

HUNTLEY: Oh, you never went to the service. I see.

STOLLENWERCK: Well, see I got married at an early age. Well, WWII ended before, it ended in '45.

HUNTLEY: That's right.

STOLLENWERCK: I graduated from high school in '47. But, they kept me on the list for a long time, and every time they would call me to go to the service, I had another child. Finally they just left me alone.

HUNTLEY: This is a period that they were supposedly integrating the armed forces at that time.

STOLLENWERCK: Yeah, they started that under Truman.

HUNTLEY: Yeah, of course 1954 being the Brown decision, I'm sure you have memories of that. Were you a voter prior to the Brown decision?

STOLLENWERCK: No.

HUNTLEY: When did you become a voter?

STOLLENWERCK: What a minute, that decision came down in '54?

HUNTLEY: '54.

STOLLENWERCK: Yes, I was a voter.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember going and taking the test?

STOLLENWERCK: Yes.

HUNTLEY: To become a voter?

STOLLENWERCK: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What was that like?

STOLLENWERCK: Like going before the Supreme Court. You have, you have to forgive me, tobacco chewer, sitting behind a desk and he would put those papers up there 00:20:00and tell you to fill them out and he would spit across the room into a golden spittoon, I guess that's what they call that thing, and he would say something when you were through with that, something like this: Ok, boy, you can go, we'll be in touch with you. I remember my barber; I think my barber gave me two dollars, cause that was the poll tax. You had to pay to vote.

HUNTLEY: Did you pass the test the first time?

STOLLENWERCK: Yes.

HUNTLEY: So you received a notice in the mail that you had passed.

STOLLENWERCK: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the Brown vs. Board of Education decision? Do you remember what was happening in your life at that time? Cause that would just precede the Montgomery bus boycott.

STOLLENWERCK: I vaguely remember specifics in that connection.

HUNTLEY: Yeah, this was a time.

STOLLENWERCK: It's been a while you know.

HUNTLEY: Yeah, a long time. Right after of course the Brown decision, the movement started. Although I'm one of those that suggest that we talk about civil rights movement, the Martin movement starts with Brown. There was much taking place prior to then. The NAACP registering people to vote and the fact that as a result of this activity in 1956 it was outlawed from the state of Alabama. This then lead of course to something that you are very familiar with, the Alabama Christian Movement.

STOLLENWERCK: I'm a charter member.

HUNTLEY: You were at the first meeting?

STOLLENWERCK: Yes sir.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. We know that the NAACP was outlawed from operating 00:22:00within that week. Some of you got together and decided that there was a necessity to fill this void. How did that come about?

STOLLENWERCK: If memory serves me correctly, Shuttlesworth called that meeting. He had fellows like Abraham Woods, Phifer, I don't remember all of the participants but there was a group that had come together on his behalf. And they decided they were going to have a meeting to see if they couldn't circumvent the ruling of the outlawing of the NAACP. And we bet that everybody 00:23:00there presumably.You got to understand that there were some main line pastors at that meeting who if anything, were not with the movement, who did not want to fight. Well, they were eating at the King's table and so I could understand that, but I didn't.

HUNTLEY: Were these usually older ministers and from the ministers that were along with you guys, were all of you younger?

STOLLENWERCK: Yeah, for the most part. Of course that's a peculiar case cause that's all I had heard all of my life, is wait the time is not yet. You know, wait. Of course, you always have that group that is still ready to wait. Who had 00:24:00contact or contacts in city hall, that kind of thing. We were aware of it, but there was nothing we could do about it except to further promote our program, promote our efforts and just let them hang on the outside.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the first meeting?

STOLLENWERCK: Well, we had singing, hymn singing. We had prayer, and we had speeches and then we called for a vote as to our position on forming a new organization. It went out overwhelmingly and at that meeting we elected president, vice-president, all of the officers and began having meetings.

HUNTLEY: Did you serve in an official capacity at that time?

STOLLENWERCK: No, no.

HUNTLEY: Approximately how many people were at the first meeting?

STOLLENWERCK: Well, I don't know what old Sardis Church holds.

HUNTLEY: But it was full?

STOLLENWERCK: Yes sir. Hanging in rafters and outside. There were a lot of folks outside there who were guards. You have to be careful about trying to determine how many folks were there because once you got in you couldn't get out, all you could do was assess what the inside looked like.

HUNTLEY: How would you characterize a mass meeting? Mass meetings were held every Monday night in various churches around the city. For younger people who have no concept of what a mass meeting was like. How would you describe it so 00:26:00they would understand what it was like to attend one of those meetings?

STOLLENWERCK: I think the mass meeting was more; it was spiritual in its development. You always had your services. You know, your prayers and your hymn singing and your speeches. Folks were being motivated. Of course you understand that you have to keep motivating folks, every meeting you got to motivate them some more. That's basically what happened, because as it turned out there was a sort of hierarchy of folk who set policy, you know at the head. And of course if any organization is gonna function effectively it had to have the leaders; the 00:27:00heads of so much of what took place. For example, in the meeting we dealt with things common to the masses but the hierarchy dealt with the how to or when to or where to. They developed the strategy and then disseminated it to us.

HUNTLEY: Yeah, I understand that. What was your role as a young man of the time? Were you teaching at that point?

STOLLENWERCK: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Were you at Carver? STOLLENWERCK: Wenonah.

HUNTLEY: At Wenonah. There were many teachers who of course did not participate 00:28:00cause they were afraid of losing there jobs. Why did you decide otherwise?

STOLLENWERCK: I was afraid to get... I didn't want to lose my job and I don't think you... you said many teachers well yeah, there were quite a few teachers who refused to participate overtly, but we were support for those folks who... for example, John Porter could not lose his job.

HUNTLEY: Right.

STOLLENWERCK: Luke Bill at Sixteenth could not lose his job. The many leaders could not lose their jobs but we could.

HUNTLEY: Never the less you attended meetings.

STOLLENWERCK: Yes, Yes.

HUNTLEY: There were some that would not attend meetings. That didn't want to be seen there because they were afraid, but you were one of those that did attend.

STOLLENWERCK: There were... I don't know if we had many Lucinda B. Rollings. She put her all on the line and they didn't bother her. She was at every meeting, but there were those of us who would send our money to support the effort, but I went.

HUNTLEY: Why, why did you decide to go? You know if....

STOLLENWERCK: I wanted to see what was going on and I wanted to be a part of it so that....

HUNTLEY: But you still could have lost your job just by being there.

STOLLENWERCK: Well, I guess I was naive I didn't think that they would do that to me. Simply because I was there. Yes I did go.

HUNTLEY: But you also demonstrated.

STOLLENWERCK: Yes, yes definitely, right there in the crowd. I would get with fellows like John Drew.

Do you know John Drew?

HUNTLEY: Sure.

STOLLENWERCK: I would make it to fellows like him and hang on to them and wherever they went that's where I would go. I was never out front to the extent that I would confront those dogs or the fire hoses.

HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested?

STOLLENWERCK: No. Somehow I avoided it, I guess I wasn't in that place to get arrested.

HUNTLEY: You weren't in the right place at the right time.

STOLLENWERCK: Yeah, yeah.

HUNTLEY: Or the wrong place at the right time.

STOLLENWERCK: Whatever.

HUNTLEY: Yes. 1960 of course; the year that students started to get involved. I mean Miles College students, college students all over the southeast. Sit ins in 00:31:00'61 the freedom rides, '62 selective buying campaign, '63 of course is when it all culminates with the demonstrations here and with the children from the city schools. You were still teaching in one of the city schools and you knew that children were being attracted. How did that play with you and what was your stance on the issue of using the children in the movement at that particular juncture?

STOLLENWERCK: At the very beginning I thought that it was using the children as pawns. I came to realize that in numbers there is strength. I never shall forget 00:32:00there was a women in Collegeville who was up around the hood and she had 8 or 9 children, all of them went to Carver High School. One morning after the mass meeting A. D. King, Martin's brother, came to Carver High School, and at that time we had chain linked fences around the building, but the gates were not 00:33:00locked. I don't know how they came to that decision but, the students were in the halls talking about lets go, lets go. I wanted to know what was going on so I went up around the office and the principal stepped out of his office and he said: I'll not try to stop you, if you're going go ahead, if you're not going let's go in the classes and have school. He turned around and went back in.

HUNTLEY: Who was the principal at the time?

STOLLENWERCK: Dr. Goodsen. Do you know him?

HUNTLEY: No, I do not.

STOLLENWERCK: Not a finer man in the town, but anyway, that's but one Black man's opinion. A. D. King was seen, something had happened that precluded him coming on the grounds. I think the law said he couldn't come on the grounds or 00:34:00he couldn't come on the grounds of the school.

HUNTLEY: So, he stood out...

STOLLENWERCK: Across the street, he stood there and raised his arms and said: Ya'll come. And they all followed out there. Of course, you understand, the authorities placed the kids out at Rickwood field. They didn't have any space and they put them out there. Then there was something about taking some of their credits or something after they were identified. I don't think anything came of that. I think the movement went to court and got that set aside. But I came to realize as I said before, if you want some strength you gotta get some numbers. I think that... that was, well I started to say the greatest turning point, but 00:35:00then it played a tremendous role in the turning point.

HUNTLEY: Some suggest that that was the turning point in it. If it hadn't been for the children the movement probably would have lost just as it did in some cities. It did in Albany, I believe.

STOLLENWERCK: But you know, let me share this peculiar experience with you. When those students left the grounds of Carver High School they left three in the school.

HUNTLEY: Three?

STOLLENWERCK: Three.

HUNTLEY: Everybody left, except those three.

STOLLENWERCK: Everybody left, I don't know how many were on the staff at that time but they were all there naturally, but we had three students. And these were a preacher's children.

HUNTLEY: They were siblings.

STOLLENWERCK: Yeah. He dared them to leave and they stayed there that whole week. Of course the teachers were there, they didn't have anybody to teach. But those three students stayed there the whole week while the rest of the folks were in the demonstration.

HUNTLEY: That's interesting. That's the first time I've heard that.

STOLLENWERCK: Off camera I'll tell you a name. (Laughing)

HUNTLEY: You were a member of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church.

STOLLENWERCK: Bred, born, reared, whatever, yeah.

HUNTLEY: And of course in '63 in September was when the Sixteenth Street bombing took place. You had children that were attending church as well. Were you all in attendance at church that morning?

STOLLENWERCK: Well, that's kinda tricky. Let me share with you. Those girls who 00:37:00died, Luke Bill, who was the Pastor was sick and he asked me to perform the right of baptism. That particular Sunday morning I don't know why but I dropped 3 children off for Sunday school and I went to and went around to Smith and Gaston Funeral Home, it's where it is now. I don't know why I went there, but I heard this blast and I was standing in the back door of the funeral home and I looked over to Sixteenth Street and there was a gray plume of smoke and I took off and ran across the lot. When I got there I could see on the side of the 00:38:00building it had been blown out, by this time I believe James Layton, was a reserve officer of some kind, he was there trying to, cause traffic had begun to back up and he had his megaphone trying to get the folks, cause the police hadn't arrived yet. At the front entrance of the church, that downstairs entrance, folk were beginning to come out and I said, "has anybody seen Marsha?" that was my daughter, "anybody seen my children?" They were first or second to come out of the building. The boy had a stream of blood running out of his scalp, down his face. By this time Willie Buey, who was an ambulance driver with 00:39:00the Gaston, had come and they were starting to get the folks that were injured transported. Since my son had an injury and we didn't know where it was I told my two girls to go to Smith and Gaston Funeral Home and your mom's gonna come get you. Then they wanted somebody to go to the hospital. Buey said: come on Rev. your son's going and I got in the ambulance with them and went to the emergency room. Then the folks from the church began to rush in.

HUNTLEY: Did you go to Hillman?

STOLLENWERCK: No.

HUNTLEY: What hospital did you go to?

STOLLENWERCK: What is that thing there?

HUNTLEY: UAB Hospital?

STOLLENWERCK: Yeah, right there on what is that 6th Avenue?

HUNTLEY: 8th Avenue, yeah, actually 6th Avenue and 20th Street.

STOLLENWERCK: Well, wherever the emergency room was at that time.

HUNTLEY: Oh yeah, ok.

STOLLENWERCK: It was at the UAB complex. It was not the Hillman Hospital because I think it's up on 7th Avenue on 20th Street and 7th Avenue. That one red building over there.

HUNTLEY: Right.

STOLLENWERCK: But somebody said to me, 'cause they had roped it off, the emergency room said we need somebody who can give out information 'cause these folks will be coming looking for persons who may have been injured or whatever. Somebody said here's Rev. Stollenwerck, maybe he'll do it. Then they put me inside of that rope and I stood there. Sad thing about it was I recognized the children when they brought their bodies in. I didn't see the bodies I saw their 00:41:00clothing and I saw one of my friend's daughter's shoes and I knew who that was. When the family came to me they knew me well enough, "Milton, Milton have you seen so and so?" I said... I lied 'cause I couldn't find it in my heart to tell them that their girl was one of those bodies that they had brought in. Now this is the second time I'll mention that. I told Lola and now I'm telling you, I never told them.

HUNTLEY: Is that right? To this day?

STOLLENWERCK: To this day.

HUNTLEY: That must have been a heart wrenching situation. You seeing them and knowing but not being able to divulge that kind of information.

STOLLENWERCK: Not at that point, they couldn't handle it. In fact they had not been officially declared dead anyway.

HUNTLEY: How did your children react?

STOLLENWERCK: I don't really recall, I really don't. I have a daughter who's rather rambunctious in her nature she probably...

HUNTLEY: She was there at the church?

STOLLENWERCK: Yeah, she was one of my children who came out of the basement.

HUNTLEY: I know there were some trying times and all of the people I've talked with have talked about that incident. Most of them... you think about that and 00:43:00you wonder what goes through peoples minds. Like you said you ran from the funeral home down to the church around to the church immediately seeking to find where your children are and you found that they were basically safe. Your instinct then was to help other people at that point.

STOLLENWERCK: Yeah, yeah. That's what it was all about. I would have stayed, I would have remained on the scene except that I was one of the first persons on the scene. There was nobody else willing to take the time. I suppose most of the folks were running around trying to see what had happened, you know. But, since 00:44:00I got the first load in the ambulance and went on to the hospital I didn't get back to...

HUNTLEY: You didn't get to see when the people came and they were really upset. All the masses of people and then the police. In fact you were gone before the police got there I assume.

STOLLENWERCK: Yeah.

HUNTLEY: And the firemen.

STOLLENWERCK: Yeah. I'm trying to recall because I spoke at one point to UPI and I recall the person on the phone, but I'm trying to remember, but I'm losing some continuity here. I'm trying to remember exactly when it was that I spoke to the folks, but I recall talking to the person on the phone. She wanted to know what's going on, what are the police doing. And my response was they are 00:45:00marching up and down the street in Gestapo type fashion with their guns drawn and this kind of thing. There was the chairman of the board of deacons. In fact he had called me to the phone cause the pastor John Cross was not there. And Charles Brown said Reverend don't be so hard on them. Well, you told me to tell them what was going on from there. So, I don't know at which interval I got a chance to speak to them maybe it was before I went to the hospital.

HUNTLEY: Well, if the police were out front maybe it had been a little bit later cause the police were not there when you left. Probably in mass it would have been somewhat later anyway.

STOLLENWERCK: Well, that had been a long time.

HUNTLEY: Absolutely. And then if you... Many times I find if you... over a period of time things seem to move into that particular day that was not there and other things move out. So its understandable, very much so. What was Birmingham like after that?

STOLLENWERCK: Very tense. After the bombing, very tense. Everybody was watching everybody else. Even those, those other folk who claim that they were friends of these folk.

HUNTLEY: What folk are you referring to?

STOLLENWERCK: I'm talking about the religious units between the Black and White communities. Just a little bit of a community was able to come together and try to stabilize the situation, but it was my opinion that there was mass destruction among those folk who had claimed to trust and respect each other.

HUNTLEY: What was it like being a member of that church? And going back to the church?

STOLLENWERCK: Well, as you must understand by now, several families left because of the church's involvement. There were those... you see Sixteenth Street has always been noted as a class church, not a mass church, and many of those folk didn't want to be involved with the struggle anyway. I suspect mainly because they were refusing to be of the upper crust. You know and they didn't have any reason to create any problems of deceit or whatever, cause they were living on the mountain so to speak.

HUNTLEY: So, as a result of the church being so active, many of those people, I mean some of those people left the congregation.

STOLLENWERCK: Yes, they did. Of course, those families who lost family members in the bombing situation, were the main folk who took leave of the Sixteenth Street Church. Now there were others, but for the most part they were the people who lost family.

HUNTLEY: There were those who would not attend Sixteenth Street because they feared that it would happen again.

STOLLENWERCK: Yeah.

HUNTLEY: Did the membership then start to diminish as a result? I know over time there had been difficulty in the church with membership. Was that one of the reasons?

STOLLENWERCK: I'm not so sure. Sixteenth Street never had, no, that's not true. I started to say they never had an overflowing attendance but, they had, it seemed to me that they had started to decline, even before the bombing. I suspect some of that was because of the involvement of the church in the movement.

HUNTLEY: Your pastor was involved?

STOLLENWERCK: Yeah, originally. The pastor was rather passive, but when he died and they called another pastor, he saw no problems in being involved.

HUNTLEY: What pastor was that? STOLLENWERCK: Which one?

HUNTLEY: The one that came here that didn't have a problem?

STOLLENWERCK: That was John Cross. The bombing took place under his 00:51:00administration. I remember one Sunday, and I don't know many folk who remember this, but one Sunday the pastor spoke; Luke Bill, I'll tell you who he was, he spoke and said something to the Sixteenth Street membership. He said, "you're little more than a social club". That was in his 11:00 message. He said it may not happen in my life time but you're headed in a direction that you'll find yourself nothing but a museum. This had to be in the early 50s.

HUNTLEY: Oh, that early.

STOLLENWERCK: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Why was he making that statement at that point?

STOLLENWERCK: Well, apparently the membership was declining.

HUNTLEY: Oh, I see.

STOLLENWERCK: That's all I can see.

HUNTLEY: He was predicting the future based upon what was taking place at that point.

STOLLENWERCK: Yeah, but now, how far wrong was he?

HUNTLEY: Well, some say in the past ten years anyway they have seen the membership start to increase again.

STOLLENWERCK: Now, you've got to understand. I don't know if it's increasing or not.

HUNTLEY: Are you still a member there?

STOLLENWERCK: No. I was there 50 years but circumstances developed and I thought it best to leave. I have a social studies major and I tribute my ability to 00:53:00recall certain things because of that social studies background. I don't know if that has anything to do with it, I just dropped that in for whatever it may be worth.

HUNTLEY: Well, that could very well be. It means that you are trained in that manner. We've covered a lot of territory and we've talked a lot about a lot of subjects. When we initially started we talked about schools and the way school systems were in the period of segregation verses where we are today. From your perspective, what has been the difference? What has made for the change in the ways in which we are educated now verses when we were under the throws of segregation?

STOLLENWERCK: I don't know who it was who articulated that too much freedom is 00:54:00just as dangerous as not having any at all. Early on this kid was sitting in my classroom and she was doing nothing just sitting there, and I asked her, "baby what are you going to do for your grade?" and she giggled and dropped her head. I said I asked you a question, what are you going to do about your grade? She said, "what you mean?" Well, you aren't doing anything. She says, "you can't make me do anything, I'm free." My response to her was, "well, free to do what; 00:55:00to be dumb?" In my day I never would have said anything like that to not only the teachers, but the neighbors. So, I'm thinking that it's... we have too much freedom, we can't make folks be responsible. They were talking about child brutality. My remark was that if they charged my grandmother with brutality she would be in jail now. But, it didn't hurt me.

HUNTLEY: You think that's a result of the movement? The gaining of the freedom.

STOLLENWERCK: It is a result of misguided folk and that may be the same thing you said, but students just don't do. I think it begins at home, because I 00:56:00further believe that kids now are rearing themselves.

HUNTLEY: When does that change?

STOLLENWERCK: It changed in the time frame of a demonstration. The courts rendering these kinds of decisions. I told somebody just the other day I said the leaders in this society have us locked in. They know what they are going to allow us to do for the next 200 years and we're sitting on our laurels and just forgetting about the forces that threaten us.

HUNTLEY: Some say that we were better off before integration and after integration we seemed to start to lose what we had actually gained. What is your opinion of that?

STOLLENWERCK: I agree to some great extent. For example, I don't think we had as many students coming out of even high school who could not read as we have now.

HUNTLEY: The question is though, why? Why now?

STOLLENWERCK: Well, we had the home, what is this thing it takes a whole village to raise a child. We've forgotten that. When I came home, even if the neighbor 00:58:00lied on me I was chastised for it. Consequently, if she chastised me I would always hope that she wouldn't tell my grandmother because I got chastised again. And they'll tell you quick, I don't believe in chastising, I don't believe in telling mine no or don't. There's something wrong there.

HUNTLEY: So, the family and the community we had during those days were somehow disappeared and that has created havoc.

STOLLENWERCK: Well, if you really look at the thing, you don't have any families anymore. You don't have any communities anymore. Yeah, you have a bunch of 00:59:00houses and the folk going in and going to bed. There's been a breakdown. For example, when... I hate to keep doing this but it's the only way I know how to do it. When it was time to eat breakfast everybody knew what time that was and everybody was at that table. When it's time to eat supper or dinner, whatever you call it, everybody knew what time that was and they were at that table. Moreover they said grace, or they said a bible verse after the old man had said grace. You don't have any of that now. Some folk have the audacity to say it's old fashion but that's where the breakdown started. When the parents lost 01:00:00control of these homes. Yeah, the homes, not houses. (Laughing). That's where the breakdown started. And strangely enough what transpires in the former generation is passed on to the later and that's why folks are talking about our losing generations because these later generations don't have anything to build on.

HUNTLEY: So, now we're wondering what the next generation is going to be like.

STOLLENWERCK: Right, there's no telling.

HUNTLEY: Reverend Stollenwerck you've been great. I appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to come and sit and talk with me. Maybe after I view this and look at the transcript maybe you'd like to do something in addition to this. 01:01:00So, I appreciate your time and if there is anything else that you'd like to leave with us feel free to, if not we'll save it till next time and we'll do it again.

STOLLENWERCK: Save it till the next time. (Laughing).

HUNTLEY: Thank you so much.