Margaret Givner Brown Interviewed on June 13, 1996

MYLES: This is an interview for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project with Margaret Givner Brown on June 13, 1996 at 2:00 p.m. at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. How are you?

BROWN: Fine.

MYLES: Good. Did you grow up in Birmingham?

BROWN: Yes, I did.

MYLES: What area?

BROWN: In Titusville.

MYLES: Where did you live in Titusville?

BROWN: On Kappa Street.

MYLES: Do you have brothers and sisters?

BROWN: Yes, I have five sisters, no brothers.

MYLES: What do you remember about your childhood growing up? When do you remember yourself, at the age of 5, or 7 or what?

BROWN: Well, I was a happy, normal, regular five-year-old.

MYLES: So you can remember back as early as five?

BROWN: Yes.

MYLES: What was your community like where you lived?

BROWN: It wasn't the suburbs or anything, but it was nice. At that time, it was just an ordinary community to me.

MYLES: Did your mom work outside of the home?

BROWN: She did small work. Nothing too much. She would work in the school.

MYLES: What school did she work in?

BROWN: I think she worked at Gary. She worked in the nutrition department where they cooked the food.

MYLES: What did your dad do?

BROWN: He was a porter at A&P.

MYLES: What does a porter do?

BROWN: A porter does a little of everything, whatever needs to be done. There were certain times when he would unload the trucks when they would come into the warehouse part, or he took mail. Whatever needed to be done, he was there to do that.

MYLES: Did he stay there a long time?

BROWN: Twenty-seven years, I think.

MYLES: Did he?

BROWN: Yes, he stayed a long time.

MYLES: Did he retire from there or did he go to another job?

BROWN: No. The A&P closed suddenly so he was left without a job.

MYLES: That must have been very difficult.

BROWN: It was.

MYLES: Do you remember about what age you were when the store closed?

BROWN: I was about 15.

MYLES: So, in terms of the number of kids, where did you come in, older, younger?

BROWN: At the end.

MYLES: You're the baby.

BROWN: I'm the 'knee' baby.

MYLES: Does that mean you came to the knees?

BROWN: I was almost at the end. There was one born after me.

MYLES: What did you over hear your parents say when the store closed?

BROWN: Well, at that time it was hard, but that was years after the demonstrations and all of this. It was hard, but we managed to get on and 00:03:00eventually they had a suit against the company so that way money came in.

MYLES: So he and some other people sued A&P because of what?

BROWN: Because the way in which they ended the job without letting them know anything about it.

MYLES: Was your family very active in any particular church?

BROWN: Yes, we were all members of New Pilgrim Baptist Church. My father was deacon. He was head of the deacon Board and my mother was a deaconess.

MYLES: So that meant the kids were active in church, too.

BROWN: Oh, yes. My oldest sister sang in the choir. I was an usher and we were very active.

MYLES: Was this something that you wanted to be, an usher? Was that something to really be proud of, "When I get a little older, I would like to be an usher," or 00:04:00one says, "I'm going to sing in the choir." Or, was it something that parents said, "Well you're going to be an usher and you're going to sing in the choir?" How did that work?

BROWN: Oh, no. That was something that I wanted to do. I enjoyed standing up watching the people as they come in. I like serving so I enjoyed seating people and things like that.

MYLES: What about school? Where did you attend elementary school?

BROWN: We all attended Washington Elementary.

MYLES: What kind of experience did you have there? Do you remember your principal or any of your teachers?

BROWN: My principal's name was Mr. Moore and I remember Mrs. Jones-- she was one of my favorite teachers along with Miss Peagues and several others.

MYLES: After you finished Washington, did you go to high school or was it a middle school after that?

BROWN: I went right into Ullman. I attended Ullman for two years. And, then they 00:05:00closed Ullman so I had to go to Parker to finish up my other two years.

MYLES: Were you sad?

BROWN: I was sad until I got there and I fit in.

MYLES: Your church, you said you were an usher and your family was very active in the church. What kind of community, at home and at the church, was it as it relates to the Movement? Do you remember anything about the Civil Rights Movement or SCLC or NAACP?

BROWN: Do you mean as I grew older or when I was younger?

MYLES: When you were younger.

BROWN: Yes, I remember (Inaudible) participating. Our church was one of the churches that I believe they started in. And, therefore we came to all the meetings that they had in the evening time. It was really exciting.

MYLES: What do you recall at the meetings? Was Rev. Smith over the meetings or 00:06:00was he the pastor then or was it somebody else? What were some of the things that the men and women talked about?

BROWN: I remember Rev. Smith would turn it over to Rev. Shuttlesworth. I remember Rev.

Abernathy would come up and get the crowd roaring for Dr. King.

MYLES: What do you recall him saying?

BROWN: I remember he would say, "fireball" and, being a child that drew my attention. I remember the excitement that the people would have.

MYLES: What do you remember about Rev. Abernathy, King and Shuttlesworth?

BROWN: Well, I remember them being very outspoken. I remember it would be exciting. All I remember is when they talked, we listened. They had a way about them that they could calm a crowd. And, what they had to say, even to a child it was interesting.

MYLES: Do you recall your parents saying anything about the meetings?

BROWN: I remember it was scary and exciting at the same time, because when they would come home they would tell us to be very careful and that things would probably happen that we wouldn't understand right off. But if we had anything that we wanted to ask them about, we could always ask them about it. It was just exciting to me.

MYLES: Why were you scared?

BROWN: I remember them telling us that, I guess when the marches were getting started, that they had come on the job and they were asking was anybody a part 00:09:00of it and it was hush, hush among the Black men that were there. As the Movement began to grow and develop more and more, they would, by us being a part of it, my father said the Black employees were drawing away from him. I guess they disassociated themselves with him because they were afraid at that time. All I remember is that there was a lot of fear because they didn't know what would happen to them.

MYLES: So, you said, "They came on the job and wanted to know who was involved." When you say "they", who came?

BROWN: No, no. I mean they were discussing it on the job. I remember hearing my father when he came home, telling my mom that it was a part of their discussion as to who was in it and who would not participate.

MYLES: His employers, his boss?

BROWN: Exactly.

MYLES: So they would be people that were Caucasian or Black people?

BROWN: Black. Because they didn't know whether or not they were participating. They just saw some were for it and some were against it.

MYLES: As youngsters, did you girls get together and discuss what might happen?

BROWN: Now, my older sisters would say something about it. But my sister who was three years above me, she would ask me if I wanted to participate. And she told me, "I want to go." And I think talking to her kind of motivated me to want to go. I remember the day that I did march we had talked about it the night before.

MYLES: What did you say?

BROWN: We were out and had been playing earlier that day. Later on that night when we were in the room getting ready for bed my sister told me, she said, "Well, I want to go. I really want to participate." She said, "I'm not afraid." And, so I said, "They say dogs are there. I've seen the dogs." And, she said, "But I'm not afraid." And, so she said, "I just believe that I'll be all right." I remember saying, "Well, if you go, I want to go." I guess by the confidence that she had, and she didn't have any fear, made me not have fear and made me 00:12:00more curious as to what it was all about.

MYLES: Did you say anything to your parents?

BROWN: The next morning we both went to my mom and my sister told me what she wanted to do because we heard that there would be a march the next day. We asked her if we could go. She was a little reluctant. She kind of pulled back. She said, "Not both of you." But my older sister said, "Well, I'll take care of them." And, then she gave us permission to go.

MYLES: Your dad had probably already gone to work?

BROWN: He was at work.

MYLES: Where were you in school at that time?

BROWN: I was attending Washington.

MYLES: Oh, you were a little girl. You were still in elementary school.

BROWN: Very young.

MYLES: What age were you?

BROWN: I was eight years old, but I was so small that they thought I was younger.

MYLES: What age was your sister?

BROWN: She was 12, I believe.

MYLES: So, this was during the school time?

BROWN: This was in the summer.

MYLES: So you went down, you knew what time the march was going to take place, do you remember about what time it was?

BROWN: We went in the morning. I think it was about 8:00 or 9:00.

MYLES: How did you get there?

BROWN: My mom had a friend to drop us off and that's how we came.

MYLES: Where did the march take place?

BROWN: Right at 16th Street Baptist Church.

MYLES: When you got there were there other people there?

BROWN: Oh, yes.

MYLES: A lot of people?

BROWN: Yes.

MYLES: How did you feel then as you approached the church?

BROWN: It was very exciting. People had began to come and I guess waiting for 00:14:00the time seemed like it was the longest time just getting prepared to go, but during that time we sat in and listened to instructions.

MYLES: Who gave the instructions and what were they, do you remember?

BROWN: I don't remember exactly who that person was. But, I do remember him saying "No Comment." If somebody come around and ask you something, like who are your parents, say, "No Comment." I do remember that was part of my instructions.

MYLES: So they got everybody together to do the marching. You marched from the church to where?

BROWN: We were on the other side of the park.

MYLES: To Kelly Ingram Park?

BROWN: Yes. We had made it to the street over from Kelly Ingram Park and that's 00:15:00when the policemen stopped us and me and my sister went together. Right as we turned the corner, that's when the police stopped us.

MYLES: Do you remember what they said?

BROWN: They asked the people that were in front of us did we have a permit and I don't know what the response was, but I remember them telling us then to line up against a fence.

MYLES: So now you're like a criminal, an 8 year old criminal, you're lining up against a fence, at least that's the way they looked at it, and they thought you were doing something wrong. Were you scared then, yet?

BROWN: No, I was excited. This is really happening. We were going to jail was 00:16:00going through my mind. I know I did everything they said. I lined up against the fence, but I was very excited and a little curious as to what would happen. But, I guess more excited than anything.

MYLES: Then what happened?

BROWN: Then they had these paddy wagons. They put us in the back. There was a little window so you could see out the back. There was another one on the side. I remember looking out, but they took us down to a big place. At that time I didn't know where it was, but then later, because they took us the back way. I was used to seeing the jail the front way, but they took was the back way. Later 00:17:00I found out that it was the City Jail. When we got there, and I guess they noticed that we were small, they took us to a room. We weren't there long then a bus came. We loaded back up, got on the bus and they took us then to juvenile hall.

MYLES: What happened there? Were your fingerprinted and all that?

BROWN: No, I don't remember being finger printed. I remember being placed in a room with some more girls. They were much older than I was. As a matter of fact that was exciting for me because they all petted me, I was so small. They were all like big sisters for me.

MYLES: So they kind of took you under their wing?

BROWN: Oh, yes. They were very sweet to me. I remember we stayed up there until later that evening. I guess they were trying to decide what to do with us. It was a lot of us. I remember looking at the news, because they had a TV in there 00:18:00and we could see everything that was happening on the news.

MYLES: On the news, did they mention about the march?

BROWN: I remember them saying they wanted to get my attention. They wanted me to see because I imagine, at that time by me being so small, that they filmed me and they wanted me to see it, but it was so many of us and by the time I got a chance to see it, it was over.

MYLES: Did anybody call your parents?

BROWN: They asked us who our parents were and where we lived. They said they wanted it so they could call our parents, but we didn't tell them anything.

MYLES: So, how long did you stay in jail?

BROWN: Five days.

MYLES: You and your sister?

BROWN: Yes.

MYLES: What was she saying? Did she say, "We're going to get in trouble"? Or 00:19:00"Mom and Dad are going to be worried about us."

BROWN: Oh, no, because we had talked with our parents before we left and they told her to look after me. So they knew where we were, and we knew that they knew where we were. We weren't wondering about whether or not they would be upset. While we were there, it was fun for us. We had to pass the time by singing and playing, little things like that. So, it wasn't fearful as far as passing the time.

MYLES: What was the food like? Were you really hungry?

BROWN: We had a routine that we went through. We were fed three meals a day and it was a rule that if we were late, when it was time to go, like if they came that morning at 6:00 to get us and we weren't ready to go, then they wouldn't 00:20:00let us come down to eat if we weren't in the line ready to go out.

MYLES: So you had to follow the rules and be on time for everything?

BROWN: Exactly.

MYLES: So as you came out of that experience and different things happen to the South, particularly in Birmingham, did you ever look back at it and say, "Boy, I was really young, but I did make a difference."

BROWN: Yes, I did. I really did. Even with my own kids as I grew older I told them about what had happened. Even though I think what I did was a very small part, I knew that it was important as the years went on because of all of the things that have happened since then.

MYLES: But, if you look at it and say it's a small part, it is a big part because if everybody who did just that one small part, it makes the whole one and it does make a difference no matter how insignificant it may seem to 'the doer.' That's a great responsibility to take upon oneself to march during those times.

BROWN: I just wanted to say that it was time. I know that one incident that made me know afterward how important it was and how dangerous it was, but I thank God he brought us through. I have five other sisters, as I said. And, all but one of them went to jail. And, when I got out, when our incident was over with, we would always share what had happened to the other. I had one sister that was put in a sweat box and she had a rough time. I had another sister that fire hydrant was turned on and the dogs were there. So, I knew what I was doing was important. It was a small part at that time, but I knew that it was important.

MYLES: When you look back at that, and I don't know whether you've shared that with other children, and when you see the file film or even if you've been to the Civil Rights Institute; have you been to the Institute?

BROWN: Yes, I have.

MYLES: When you look at all that, first I want to ask you, what about when you talk to your relatives' children or your own children and you see an old movie or some file film and say, "Yes, I participated, I did so and so." What do they say, "Oh, that was in the olden days. You didn't really do that." Or do they ask you to tell them about it?

BROWN: The very first time I shared my experience with any other child was when I was young myself. I remember doing it at school. I had to give a report and that was my report. I wanted to tell them about my incident. When I went up 00:23:00first the kids made fun of me, but later on they were just spellbound. And, as I grew older with my own kids, like I said, they listened. A lot of times, in school systems when I talked with them, they said, "Oh, Mrs. Brown, it wasn't that bad." The kids just can't imagine that things went on though they did. They just couldn't imagine that ever happened.

MYLES: What about when they've seen the Institute and they see the bus, they see the fountains, do they say, "Is this for real, or is this like a movie?" What do they say?

BROWN: They are really amazed. When the museum first opened I brought my middle son. He was really amazed. He was just saying that, "The law--the law should 00:24:00have been able to help. I can't see where the law would allow them to do that." But, I told them that at that time it was the law, that we couldn't go different places. It's hard for all my kids. Now, they understand it better. But, earlier they didn't. They didn't understand that the law could do that.

MYLES: And the thing about it too, I guess you could look at it and say, well, when you look back, even though you have children, it really wasn't that long ago.

BROWN: No, it wasn't.

MYLES: How was it for you when you came to the Institute? Did you have flashbacks? Was it an emotional time for? Were you with somebody or by yourself?

BROWN: When I first came I was with my husband and it was exciting. It brought back a lot of memories.

MYLES: We've talked to some people who said that it was very emotional. Even men said it brought tears to their eyes when they came here to the Institute. Did you experience any of that?

BROWN: All of that, everything that you mentioned. There was sadness, but, like I said, it was time that we had to go through with, it had to be.

MYLES: When you talk with your husband about it, did he know you when you were a little girl?

BROWN: No.

MYLES: So, when you tell him, did he say, "Oh, girl, you didn't do that?"

BROWN: No. He wasn't like that all. All he would say is that he hated that he 00:26:00couldn't participate and he hated that he missed out on that chance, but he was so small his parents didn't allow it. But, he didn't talk to me as though I did not participate.

MYLES: What about your church's involvement? When you look at your church, they also played a very big role. I guess that made you very proud of your church.

BROWN: It did.

MYLES: What about Rev. Smith? Did your father or did you ever overhear about him being threatened or his house being bombed?

BROWN: Oh, yes.

MYLES: What did they say?

BROWN: Especially when we had a member that was beaten. I remember him talking about Rev. Billups. He and Dr. Smith were close. I remember him saying that they 00:27:00had beat him to death. They had found his body in a car and that they were (Inaudible). And, it was just a constant fear that all their lives were in danger, but at the same time we were still motivated to go on. It wasn't the fear that kept us from doing it, it was the fear that made us want to do more.

MYLES: Sure, that if we didn't, it would never be.

BROWN: Right. It would be even worse.

MYLES: What about the Movement in your opinion, then, when you look back at organizations like SCLC and the NAACP then, do you think they were worth it? Was it worth it being involved? Were they good? And, then when you look at the Movement today, you look at SCLC, NAACP, those kinds of organizations, what is the difference or is there any difference in your opinion, then and now?

BROWN: Yes, it's a difference now. Then, it was very needed and it is needed 00:28:00today. But we put more faith and confidence in it then because they were right there with us. Now, the kids today don't know about it. Very few do. My daughter, since, was involved in the Movement, the NAACP, but she was telling me about a lot of the kids that weren't aware of it. They didn't know what was going on and I know when we were coming up that was all we talked about--the NAACP, the Movement and the marches and things. So, now, the young kids are kind of out of touch with it.

MYLES: Do you think they need to be in touch?

BROWN: They do need to be in touch, exactly.

MYLES: Before we close, how would you say they can get 'in touch' with the Movement?

BROWN: Through the school system. If they would have different programs to 00:29:00involve them, I believe that would help. That's my opinion. Then, through the churches, that would help a lot, too.

MYLES: Do you think that some churches have gotten away from those kinds of things and doing other kinds of things?

BROWN: Yes, exactly.

MYLES: Is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wanted to share with us?

BROWN: Well, I think we covered it all.

MYLES: If you could say something to encourage somebody to come to the Civil Rights Institute and see a part of history that took place, how would you invite them?

BROWN: I would really advise them to come because this is history and this is something that really, as a matter of fact when they look at where they are today, and they have a long ways yet to go, but if they think about the struggle that we had, in the back and before all of the fine cars and the nice houses came about, they need to know where they came from, to appreciate where they are 00:30:00and where they're going in the future. So I'd advise them to please come.

MYLES: We certainly thank you for sharing with us today.

BROWN: It was a pleasure.