Mary Streeter Perry Interviewed on January 14, 1998

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mary E. Streeter Perry; I'm Dr. Horace Huntley presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. This is an interview for the Oral History Project; today is January 28, 1998. Mrs. Perry, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule and really, while you're on vacation from Chicago, to come to sit and talk with us about your activities in the Movement. As you said, you slept, ate and drank the Movement at that time as a young person; so, we'll be very interested in getting into that. But, before we get there, let me just raise a couple of questions about you and your family. Were your mother and father from Birmingham originally?

PERRY: Bullock County.

HUNTLEY: Bullock County, okay. Were you born here?

PERRY: I was born here in Birmingham, Alabama.

HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have?

PERRY: There were five of us.

HUNTLEY: Where do you fall in that?

PERRY: I'm in the middle.

HUNTLEY: Right in the middle.

PERRY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Okay, so you had the best of all worlds, huh?

PERRY: Yes, I did.

HUNTLEY: What neighborhood did you grow up in?

PERRY: Smithfield.

HUNTLEY: Smithfield. How much education did your parents have?

PERRY: My mother--they all went to elementary school and at that time, they couldn't afford to go to high school or beyond that, so--.

HUNTLEY: Both your mother and your father?

PERRY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What kind of work did they do?

PERRY: Domestic; my mother was a housewife and my father worked for the steel mill here in Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: Did your mother work outside of the home?

PERRY: No, she worked in the home because at that time, mothers were at home raising children, taking care of things at home.

HUNTLEY: Did you know what you father did in the steel mill; what kind of work?

PERRY: He worked in the nail department, making nails.

HUNTLEY: Those days of growing up in Birmingham, you know, many people look at a person who lived and grew up in Birmingham as being somewhat of an aberration because you grew up in such a repressive society--

PERRY: Sure.

HUNTLEY: What was that time like for you? Let me just ask you about your elementary school days. Do you remember your first grade, where you started first grade?

PERRY: Oh yes.

HUNTLEY: What school?

PERRY: It was Lincoln School and it was very exciting to me as a child because you assumed that all the other children go to the same process you go through; home, church, school, your community comes just in that order. And, you're taught to respect each area and to love, to care for, to nurture you for future development.

HUNTLEY: Where did you live in Smithfield?

PERRY: At the time, we lived in 8th Avenue. In fact, we were a block away from Lincoln School at that time.

HUNTLEY: So, you didn't have far to walk to school?

PERRY: I didn't have far to walk.

HUNTLEY: Okay. From Lincoln School, where did you go?

PERRY: Parker. It was Parker Annex at the time. I think it was director and faculty at the school at that time.

HUNTLEY: Parker, in those early days was termed the 'Biggest Negro High School' in the world.

PERRY: Oh, it was. It was very exciting; it was academically exciting, there were so many activities the children were involved in at the time. We were taught to be involved in school activities, which were, again, part of your development.

HUNTLEY: What kind of extracurricular activities were you involved in?

PERRY: I was in the band. I joined the Gymnastics, I was into--the classroom activities, I was a secretary, I was a treasurer, and it was very exciting and I was into--went to all the games and there weren't any drugs involved or anything like that at that time. So, we were considered very normal children in normal activities in school.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember any gangs at Parker or in your community?

PERRY: Oh no. At that time, we never heard of anything like that. We didn't have to worry about gangs, drugs, and killings. It just wasn't in our era, thank God 00:05:00it wasn't.

HUNTLEY: You never heard of the knives that were carried? There was something--

PERRY: Well, that were times when boys would get into those fights and little scuffles, but is was nothing like it is today. No, we didn't have anything like that.

HUNTLEY: How would you say Parker impacted upon you in terms of your development? Were there individuals that you remember that had an impact on your development?

PERRY: Everybody had an impact because we were like a family at school. School was home away from home and you were treated that way, you were respected that way and you were educated that way. So, everybody knew everybody, respected 00:06:00everybody; the teachers were like moms, dads and so was the principal of the school. So, there was that close communication, understanding, love and respect.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember any particular teachers that would have more influence on you than others?

PERRY: My principal, Mr. R. C. Johnson. He was bigger than life and he really impressed me. He was my father away from home. So, what he said was ruled, law and we all abided by it and I remember him to that day, he really impressed me. It's been the leadership at school that followed me all through life.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after you finished Parker?

PERRY: After I finished Parker, I went to Booker T. Washington Business College, 00:07:00which was an extension of high school, of course, it added onto my education experience.

HUNTLEY: What did you major in?

PERRY: Secretarial Science, which was consisted of Typing.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after that, did you go to work?

PERRY: I worked and I was going to school and shortly after that, the Movement came. I was very active and participated and I started working at University Hospital. I got involved with the Movement, lost my job at University--.

HUNTLEY: Before you get there, let my try to direct the traffic a little bit. You went to Booker T. Washington; what was your first job after Booker T. Washington?

PERRY: I worked as a waitress.

HUNTLEY: Where?

PERRY: It was a little--in the Black community, I can't recall--

HUNTLEY: Was it in the business district; the 4th Avenue Business District, near the school?

PERRY: No, it was more near Parker.

HUNTLEY: It was in Smithfield?

PERRY: It was in Smithfield. Because at the time, we couldn't get jobs at Woolworth's and there were no McDonald's and so, we got jobs where we could.

HUNTLEY: How long did you work there?

PERRY: Up until about, I think about a year and a half and I went to the University Hospital and was employed there.

HUNTLEY: How did you get involved in the Movement?

PERRY: We heard about it by word of mouth, of course, at church and all that. We were very interested, like, all of the kids and we wanted to do something for our community. We were very excited about Dr. King coming to Birmingham. Of 00:09:00course, we already had the Alabama Christian Movement and they merged together to do what they had to do. I went to the mass meetings.

HUNTLEY: How would you describe a typical mass meeting?

PERRY: Oh, it was packed. There was singing; praying, Dr. King and his staff would speak about desegregating the public facilities at that time because everything was of course, you know, not integrated. So, what we had to do to was solve those problems at that time. We were so excited, the children were all motivated. In fact, they were all getting out of school to join the Movement. Everybody was joining the Movement--

HUNTLEY: Now, you're already out of high school, right?

PERRY: Oh yes.

HUNTLEY: Were you at that time, working at University Hospital?

PERRY: Yes, at that time I was working at University.

HUNTLEY: How did that conflict with your involvement with the Movement and you working at University?

PERRY: Well, like I said, I was so excited. I just automatically joined the Movement and we all signed up and went to 16th Street Baptist Church to learn how to demonstrate and what to do and what not to do. The dos and don'ts--how risky it was and how we had to be nonviolent. Dr. King always said that if you felt that you couldn't handle the nonviolent aspect of it, not to join. But, we weren't afraid, most of us. Those who were fearful didn't join of course. I was so excited, we didn't care about that, and we just wanted to do something for our community.

HUNTLEY: Were other members of your family involved?

PERRY: Yes, my brother and I have a little sister who was involved.

HUNTLEY: What did your parents say about your involvement?

PERRY: They were nervous and scared like the rest of the parents.

HUNTLEY: Did they raise any questions about your not participating?

PERRY: Yes. There was some controversy, a lot of arguments about it. But, we knew what we had to do. It was very important for us at the time to do, to participate and to do something.

HUNTLEY: What was the training that you received?

PERRY: Well, it was very educational, I must say. We were taught to be nonviolent, if someone was to attempt to be violent against us, we had to group in, get close together, protect each other, not to say anything, but to just demonstrate, carry our signs in a nonviolent manner and walk and talk in a nonviolent manner. Just to protect ourselves, of course, the staff was close by 00:12:00to help us and assist us.

HUNTLEY: Were there any repercussions as a result of your involvement in the Movement at the University Hospital?

PERRY: I was fired from my job.

HUNTLEY: What was the rationale?

PERRY: Well, they found out I was in jail, I went to jail and of course they immediately fired me without every getting rehired if I participated in the Movement. If they had anything to do with Movement, they would not be rehired.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember the first time that you demonstrated?

PERRY: Oh yes. I was at a sit-in counter at Woolworth's and we had to sit at the counter and there so many booths. It was quite interesting they were all so 00:13:00motivating to us because we felt assured that we would take it, we weren't afraid of anything. We'd sit at the counters and we would sit like 30 minutes, then the White people walked around and wouldn't serve us, they would call us ugly names. So, after about 30 minutes, we would move and another group would come in and that process continued.

HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested?

PERRY: Yes, I was arrested. When I demonstrated in front of Love's Department--

HUNTLEY: This was not at the sit-ins?

PERRY: I was arrested during a demonstration, picketing. My brother at the time was demonstrating in front of Pizitz Store. With my group, the police came up with the paddy and asked us if we had permits and we said no and they put us in 00:14:00the paddy wagons and we sang songs of praises all the way to jail.

HUNTLEY: How many were in your group?

PERRY: There were approximately, I would say 20 to 25 people.

HUNTLEY: And, they put all of you in the same paddy wagon?

PERRY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: It was rather crowded in there.

PERRY: Oh yes. But we managed.

HUNTLEY: What was going through your mind when all of this was happening? Why do that at that time?

PERRY: We were doing something positive and that it was going to help our community for future generations as well as at that time. That's what made us so excited.

HUNTLEY: Were there other friends of yours, close associates of yours that were with you when you were demonstrating?

PERRY: There were a few neighbors and friends of mine that I knew. We were all 00:15:00close communities and everybody got involved.

HUNTLEY: When you went to jail, was there anyone in jail with you that you knew from your immediate surroundings like school or from your neighborhood?

PERRY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: So, you knew most of the people that were in jail with you?

PERRY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What was jail like?

PERRY: It was a wonderful experience.

HUNTLEY: Jail was a wonderful experience?

PERRY: Because, we knew why we were there and that's what made it wonderful. We had an opportunity to learn about an experience we never experienced before. We got friendly with the prisoners. We stayed in the group as we were taught.

HUNTLEY: The prison authorities didn't attempt to separate you?

PERRY: Oh no. The women were in the prison with the women and of course, the men with men.

HUNTLEY: Where were you housed?

PERRY: We were housed actually in prison downtown. We just started having church service, singing, praying and of course, the inmates joined in with us. It was a wonderful experience, very, very, very enlightening.

HUNTLEY: Were there any efforts to make you be quiet?

PERRY: No, we weren't brutalized or--they respected us and we followed the rules and regulations so, we didn't fear anything.

HUNTLEY: How long were you there?

PERRY: I was there two days and one night. Dr. King would come out and check on us and we could see him through the window and he would holler and ask us how we're doing.

HUNTLEY: So, it was very memorable occasion?

PERRY: Yes it was.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember the food?

PERRY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: How was it?

PERRY: We ate out tin plates, one tin cup and one tin spoon. We had something that looked like grits, something that looked like soup, we couldn't tell. We ate out the vending machines, potato chips, peanuts and candy.

HUNTLEY: So, you had money?

PERRY: We had a little bit, nickels, quarters and dimes with us. We just couldn't eat the food, it was--that was the worst experience right there.

HUNTLEY: So, the food was the worst?

PERRY: Was actually the worst experience, yes.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember when you were released?

PERRY: Yes, the day that I went to jail, we stayed that night and the next day, we were released that following evening. Reverend Billups and Bernard Beatey 00:18:00(sp?) came to get us out of jail and we immediately went to the mass meeting at 16th Street.

HUNTLEY: So, you didn't go home?

PERRY: No, we went directly to the mass meeting.

HUNTLEY: What was your reception when you arrived?

PERRY: Oh, the church was packed, choirs singing, standing ovation and everybody applauded when we walked in. We sat down front and different ministers would get up and we had the experience of expressing our experiences in jail. It was very exciting.

HUNTLEY: Sound like you wanted to go back.

PERRY: It was one of the most exciting times in my life and if I could do it all over again, I really would.

HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested again after that?

PERRY: No, I wasn't arrested again. Of course, I participated making signs, answering phones and just doing what ever they needed me to do and then later 00:19:00on, work in voter registration.

HUNTLEY: Were you a registered voter at the time?

PERRY: I wasn't quite, age wise.

HUNTLEY: What did you do in terms of voter registration?

PERRY: Well, at Thurgood CME Church, which is now relocated, but at the time, it was close to all the funeral homes and we would sign the community up and everybody would come out and sign up and we'd show them how to fill the papers out and then they were given free transportation by anybody in the community who could volunteer and including funeral homes, they would offer their services to give free rides to anyone who wanted to go down to the courthouse to registered.

HUNTLEY: What was the reception that you received at home once you released from jail?

PERRY: Well, my parents were relieved of course and they were happy and I 00:20:00explained to them what I wanted to. So, after that, they accepted what I wanted to do and without any arguments.

HUNTLEY: Was your brother arrested?

PERRY: No, he wasn't arrested and he continued to demonstrate, but, he wasn't arrested.

HUNTLEY: After your arrest, you have become a veteran then. How did your peers relate to you as a result of your activities? I'm sure there friends who were not involved in the Movement, how did they relate?

PERRY: To tell you the truth, the ones that I saw and ran into, they immediately wanted to join the Movement. You see, the children had to because the parents had to work. So, everybody couldn't go to jail and this is what Dr. King said, "The children have to do this." We were willing and as well as able to respond 00:21:00to the call.

HUNTLEY: Were there--many--in interviewing other people, many of them have suggested that the children were very actively involved and participated during this breached period, say from the beginning of May until for about a week or so. But, activities after that then sort of dwindled. Was that your experience as well?

PERRY: No.

HUNTLEY: Was that level of involvement, did that continue?

PERRY: No, the children were very active through the whole times of the demonstrations, it was very active. We went from the demonstrations with into the voter registration.

HUNTLEY: Had the opportunity also, to go to Dorchester (sp?)

PERRY: Dorchester (sp?) Simon(sp?), yes.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about that.

PERRY: There was busload of us, volunteered to go to Dorchester to learn more about the Movement, to learn about Gandhi, who started the Movement in India and had classes of course. I think we stayed like a day or two, of course everybody had to get permission from their parents and it was a wonderful experience. We really learned a lot about the Movement and of course we were very excited about learning about Gandhi and how his movement got us motivated.

HUNTLEY: Did you join the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights or SCLC?

PERRY: I joined SCLC.

HUNTLEY: Did you work with them in any other city, other than Birmingham?

PERRY: No, I did not. Because I lived in Chicago and there's not an office.

HUNTLEY: Now, you were dismissed from your job at University Hospital. Where did you work after that?

PERRY: I moved to Chicago. I followed some relatives to find a job and to go back to school and to get myself ready for my future because I felt that I did something that would add onto to my education that would help me along in life. So, I felt very good about it and I still feel good about it. So, I moved to Chicago and found a job and start taking classes and working and going to school. I would come home whenever I could to visit my family and I think I 00:24:00didn't come back until my father got sick and he was so sick, I just dropped everything.

HUNTLEY: You were away for 10 years?

PERRY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: How, then, would you compare Chicago with Birmingham? When you first arrived there, was this the first time that you had been to Chicago or had you been going?

PERRY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: So, how was that transition from Birmingham to Chicago?

PERRY: Well, they needed what we did. They needed--it was very different.

HUNTLEY: How do you mean, different?

PERRY: Well, I noticed that the young people, they didn't have what we had here, the close knit families, the motivation to work together for the betterment of 00:25:00your home, family, community, period and it was desperately needed and of course, I couldn't single-handedly do it. But, that's the first thing I notice, how divided the Black community was.

HUNTLEY: Did you get involved with Dr. King came to Chicago?

PERRY: Yes I did. I participated in demonstrations, I didn't go to jail but I did demonstration.

HUNTLEY: How were demonstrations different in Chicago than Birmingham?

PERRY: It was very much more powerful because there were different circumstances, you have people who really didn't understand our plight because they were born and raised there. The Blacks were so divided there; it's not the 00:26:00close communication like it should be because it's a larger city, perhaps. At the time I felt that all Black communities were alike and it was not. It was just the opposite.

HUNTLEY: So, did that create a problem for you?

PERRY: I was disappointed, very hurt.

HUNTLEY: Did you every consider coming back to Birmingham?

PERRY: Well, I considered, but the jobs were so plentiful there, much more here for the Black community and I felt if I stayed a little bit longer and made a little more money and of course, I was helping my family at that time.

HUNTLEY: What kind of work did you do?

PERRY: Oh, I did clerical work. I was mostly attracted to the departments where 00:27:00I worked, in fact a couple of them closed. But, that was interest at that time and still is.

HUNTLEY: Well, Chicago being much different from Birmingham and when Dr. King came to Chicago, he made a statement. That he had never seen the viciousness on the face of the people in Alabama and Mississippi that he witnessed in Chicago. You had mentioned earlier that you were not afraid, here in Birmingham you were demonstrating, because you knew that it was for something that was gonna benefit the community. Did you have that same sense of a struggle when you demonstrated in Chicago?

PERRY: Yes, I did.

HUNTLEY: What about the

PERRY: The violent aspect?

HUNTLEY: Right.

PERRY: I wasn't afraid personally, but, I was afraid for the children who were 00:28:00not familiar with what they were doing. They really didn't' have a sense, they just wanted to do something because Dr. King was there. But, I don't think they were prepared because there was no environment comfortable enough that would understand what they were doing.

HUNTLEY: In Birmingham, the demonstrations never really went into White communities per se--

PERRY: Yes--

HUNTLEY: But, in Chicago, the march went to Cicero.

PERRY: Right, they were a racist community.

HUNTLEY: And that is when he talked about the differences in how it impacted upon him as a person and being afraid and if you view the film, you can see the 00:29:00fright in his face and in others' faces as well. It was a different world in Chicago.

PERRY: Still is.

HUNTLEY: Still is?

PERRY: Yes. Because you have people coming from all over the world and they don't understand nor do they care about the plights of the Black community. So, this is where the violence comes into play.

HUNTLEY: How did the Movement prepare you for your life in Chicago and beyond?

PERRY: It made me a strong person. It made me face life better and the reality to accommodate myself with the world around me, no matter where the people come from; you have to learn to live with other parts of the world. It educated me to handle myself in situations that I might come across that would encounter 00:30:00prejudice in particular. I think I've done quite well.

HUNTLEY: You said that if you had the chance to do it all over again, you would?

PERRY: I would, I would do it all over again and I'd like to add that I'm kind of disappointed that our Blacks don't have a sense of pride and I blame that part on the parents. I want the whole world to know what we did, because we had an impact on the world and we didn't realize it at that particular time and I'm very extremely proud of it. The world has copied off us and with the children and their children the future generations to not forget where we come from, particularly our ancestors because if it wasn't for them, we wouldn't be here to do what we had to do.

Each generation have to play a part and be proud of your community and not to forget where you come from, where you are now, so you can go on with your future and know where you're going. So, I want the young people to really, very seriously participate in their communities, to be a positive impact no matter where you are and what part of the world you live in, you're still part of the Black community and not to ever forget where you come from. Where you're from is very important because if you don't know where you come from, you'll never know where you're going.

HUNTLEY: I know Northern cities or Western cities or wherever you meet people and you tell them that you're from Birmingham, Alabama, what has been the reaction?

PERRY: The Black community of course, they're interesting and very proud. I expressed in the White community while I'm in Chicago and the fact that I was 00:32:00part of the Movement and they gave me sort of the half smile and which is okay because I want the whole world to know about what we did in Birmingham, so I continue to carry the message.

HUNTLEY: There are the occasions where some Blacks that found that you were from Birmingham and they look at you different than they would if you were from New York or Chicago or some places?

PERRY: Occasionally, but I got my most positive results from the Black community. In fact, I joined Harold Washington since I been there. I've even went to some community leaders' party for Harold Washington and Judges at a party and it was very interesting and they were all very proud of the fact that I was part of the Movement here in Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about the Harold Washington party.

PERRY: Harold Washington was THE MAN, of course you he died tragically a few years ago. They wanted to memorize him in as many aspects as they could. So, they organized this Harold Washington party, to be part of the permanent part of the Black community, it was very exciting to be in. Everybody was very cordial, something like here, but not on a vast scale. I feel it should have been, but--

HUNTLEY: So, you worked with voter registration, anything else?

PERRY: I helped the political parties, worked with different mainly Black offices.

HUNTLEY: Are you still working with that group?

PERRY: Not as active as it was initially, but I'm still part of the Harold Washington party.

HUNTLEY: Judge Penchman(sp?) just ran for an office.

PERRY: Yes, he did. He didn't win but you can't keep a good man down.

HUNTLEY: You know his daughter lives here.

PERRY: Oh really, I didn't know that.

HUNTLEY: So, the Movement, then, in your mind, body and soul, has gone from Birmingham in 1961-62-63 to Chicago in the 90s and you sort of epitomize that Movement. Migration has always been a key issue in the history of Black people 00:35:00in this country.

PERRY: It's a part of me for the rest of my life.

HUNTLEY: And you would like for everybody to know that and know what it has meant to you?

PERRY: Yes, what it was meant for our communities in the future.

HUNTLEY: Where are we now in relationship to the Movement of the 60s?

PERRY: We're not where we should be. I think that everybody should take a part and revitalize our community to the point where we can change the laws to benefit us. We can practice those laws to benefit us, to better our communities because things are not getting, in a sense they're getting worse. They want to get rid of Affirmative Action, I think that's a terrible mistake; it would hurt 00:36:00us in our community. I want our leaders to be leaders like Dr. King, Rev. Walker and Rev. Shuttlesworth.

If we can find leaders like that in our younger generation, it really would help our community. I can't see whey that can't be done. I can't see why young people don't really have an interest in that area like they should, to make a national impact, a national statement. I hope that is something that can motivate them to want to participate in their communities because I'm so afraid that other people from other parts of the world are just gonna come over here and just take total control and take all our jobs.

HUNTLEY: What were the successes of the Movement?

PERRY: Affirmative Action, every aspect of the community, period, there were jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You could go to the school you want to. Everything opened up publicly and I'm very proud of that because it makes me feel that our works was not in vain, our efforts--even though some of the scars are there--one of the things that hurt me the most Dr. King was killed, it hurts me now to even talk about it because it just devastated our community. He was a parent to all of us as well as our leader and --

HUNTLEY: What do you think were the emphasis of the leadership in the Movement at that time?

PERRY: To show courage, intelligence and to show that we were educated people, we have a beautiful history and we're the first people here on this earth. We have attributed everything to mankind and we have not reaped the benefits of our contributions to this country and to the world. We should be recognized throughout the whole world of a Black people, what we're about, who we are, what 00:39:00we represent, what we bring forth and we're still the most brilliant people in the world. And if nobody appreciates us, we should appreciate ourselves.

HUNTLEY: Were there any mistakes made during the time from the perspective of our leadership?

PERRY: There weren't enough leaders.

HUNTLEY: Not enough leaders?

PERRY: Not enough leaders.

HUNTLEY: What could more leaders have done that was done?

PERRY: Well, if they had the leadership that we were brought under, it would have spread worldwide.

HUNTLEY: You don't think it spread worldwide?

PERRY: Well, it did, but SCLC would have been all over the world.

HUNTLEY: You're saying SCLC should have had more leaders? What about the other 00:40:00organizations such as SNCC or CORE?

PERRY: Oh sure they contributed, but I was such a part of SCLC, I'm not dismissing their contributions. If it had been more leaders, we could have changed the whole world to a better place to live.

HUNTLEY: Now, you mentioned Dr. King, Fred Shuttlesworth, were there other people that you looked upon as being leaders?

PERRY: Oh yes, Reverend Gardner, Wyatt T. Walker, Dorothy Cotton, Annie Young, Reverend Charles Phillips--

HUNTLEY: What about--

PERRY: Many local leaders--

HUNTLEY: What about national leaders like Stokely Carmichael?

PERRY: Stokely Carmichael, oh yes. Of course, Malcolm X.

HUNTLEY: There are different areas of the Movement and the nonviolent direction action, of course, was led by the SCLC.

PERRY: Right.

HUNTLEY: Then, you had the college students that were led by SNCC.

PERRY: Right.

HUNTLEY: Stokely Carmichael and people of that nature and then of course, you did have Malcolm X and others. The Movement sort of escalates in the mid-60s and 00:41:00you're in Chicago and the Black Panther Party is organized. How do you view that with your background, coming from Birmingham and having your experiences with SCLC and when you get to Chicago, you say that SCLC are really that active in 00:42:00the urban center--

PERRY: I think they should have merged; they would have been more powerful, more positive and generating more. More community activities and participation would have been great.

HUNTLEY: You don't think that they were searching for different things?

PERRY: I think they were searching for the same thing. I think we would have been more powerful--when you're--together we stand, divided we fall, we can't afford to have any kind of division in our communities, we just can't afford it.

HUNTLEY: How did you view the whole concept of Black power?

PERRY: I think it was a good thing all the way around. But, it could have been more powerful had they merged.

HUNTLEY: In 1963, '64, SNCC was going on record against the Vietnam War, against Americans being in Vietnam--

PERRY: It was a terrible mistake.

HUNTLEY: Dr. King did not agree with them at that particular juncture or he did not publicly agree with them. By 1967 though, he did come out against the Vietnam War.

PERRY: Right.

HUNTLEY: How was that viewed by you and people in your particular area?

PERRY: Well, we agreed with Dr. King. Of course it was a terrible mistake, it was a terrible time, it was unnecessary.

HUNTLEY: What was a terrible mistake?

PERRY: Getting involved in the war, period. Our men getting killed, for what? There were a lot of Black communities hurt by that war.

HUNTLEY: We all grieved from Dr. King's assassination, why do you think he was killed?

PERRY: Because of all the wonderful things he did.

HUNTLEY: Why would he be assassinated for the wonderful things?

PERRY: Jesus was assassinated, so, Dr. King was assassinated and Malcolm X. At that time when the Black community tried to do something positive, your life is automatically on the line. I think we take a risk on your family as well. They 00:45:00understood this and accepted. He knew and he often talked about the fact that one day he might get killed and it happened. I can't elaborate because it's just too--

HUNTLEY: Where were they day you heard of Dr. King--?

PERRY: I was in Chicago--

HUNTLEY: Do you remember where you were when you actually got the news?

PERRY: Yes, I was with my other relatives there.

HUNTLEY: I was in Minneapolis at the time and it was in the evening like 5:30, 6:00 when we received the message and I think most people can probably remember exactly what they were doing when they got the news and not believing it. That 00:46:00created a real difficulty for the Movement as a whole and some say it actually ended the Movement. The Movement actually ended as result of that, would you agree with or not?

PERRY: Yes, I do.

HUNTLEY: You think the Movement ended with the death of Dr. King?

PERRY: It shouldn't have, but somewhat, it did.

HUNTLEY: Do you think that there has been any, I guess--any other things that we experience that were positive that we--just a feeling of victory that we felt during the Civil Rights Movement? Has any of that impacted up on us in the 70s, 80s and 90s and going up the 21st Century?

PERRY: I think so, jobs. Doors opened up and public doors opened and that was a 00:47:00wonderful thing and it still is. This is why I'm so afraid of Affirmative Action is going to be destroyed because it would cripple our community and our efforts. I think the Black community should press the Government and we should also fight for Affirmative Action.

HUNTLEY: Do you think we'll do that, collectively? Do you see that we're doing-- We've gone from Smithfield to Lincoln School to Parker Annex through Parker High 00:48:00School all the way to the Southside of Chicago. Is there anything else that you would like to include in this tape before we conclude?

PERRY: Well, I hope what I said will encourage our people to continue the struggle for our communities. If we don't, we won't have a community. It is very vital, it's a matter of life for us to survive. It is a matter of life for us to continue educating our children. We must continue fighting for our rights. We must continue working together, collectively as a community. We must be better people so our homes can be better, our schools can be better, and our 00:49:00communities can be better to, to better the whole world. I think we can do that if we really set our minds to it and I'm really reaching to young people to please work in your communities.

HUNTLEY: I want to thank you for coming back home and sitting and talking with me today and maybe we'll get a chance to do this at some later date. Because, I know that you're gonna continue to pass this word; I can feel the spirit as you talk.

PERRY: I do it all the time.

HUNTLEY: I can tell that you do.

PERRY: Thank you.

HUNTLEY: Thank you.