Louphenia Thomas Interviewed on June 17, 1998

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Louphenia Thomas for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I'm Dr. Horace Huntley; we're presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is June 17, 1998. I want to thank you Ms. Thomas for coming and spending some time with me this morning. Welcome to the Institute.

THOMAS: Thank you for inviting me.

HUNTLEY: I would just like to ask you: were you born in Birmingham?

THOMAS: No, no.

HUNTLEY: Where were you born?

THOMAS: I was born in Coosa County, Alabama.

HUNTLEY: Coosa County?

THOMAS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And were your parents from Coosa County?

THOMAS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Yes, ma'am. Did they own property there?

THOMAS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your father do?

THOMAS: My father ran a blacksmith shop. You know what that is?

HUNTLEY: Yes ma'am.

THOMAS: He had farmed. Where abouts he had other people working on the farm.

HUNTLEY: So, did he own the farm?

THOMAS: He owned the farm.

HUNTLEY: Ok, so he had people working there for him.

THOMAS: That's right.

HUNTLEY: How much education did your mother and father have?

THOMAS: Well, they didn't have...my father had a high school education. My mother didn't.

HUNTLEY: Did she work outside of the home?

THOMAS: No, she didn't.

HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have?

THOMAS: I had one brother.

HUNTLEY: Was he older or younger?

THOMAS: Younger.

HUNTLEY: Now, Coosa County, that's where you started then your schooling.

THOMAS: In Coosa County.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember your first grade?

THOMAS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about that. What was that like?

THOMAS: Oh, it was a one room building, as they called them school houses.

HUNTLEY: Yes, ma'am.

THOMAS: The teacher there was a Mr. Swindle. We would sometime walk to school. It wasn't to far on Highway 231. That's 231 going from Sylacauga to Montgomery.

HUNTLEY: Right, that's right.

THOMAS: We would get on that highway to go to school. School wasn't too far.

HUNTLEY:

THOMAS: Now did you have more then one grade in that school in one class?

You mean in that building?

HUNTLEY: Yes ma'am.

THOMAS: In that building I think they had, if I remember correctly, it was two.

HUNTLEY: Two classrooms?

THOMAS: Yes, two classrooms.

HUNTLEY: Now that of course was a rural community. Is that right?

THOMAS: Oh, yes.

HUNTLEY: And the name of the community was Equality? Is that the name of the community?

THOMAS: Well now that was a little distance from where I grew up. It was on my 00:03:00birth certificate- I believe that Equality was the place I was born.

HUNTLEY: Ok, that's where the Post Office was?

THOMAS: Yes, that's where the Post Office was. They delivered mail out on the highway.

HUNTLEY: I see and you went...that first school that you went...was that the Coosa County, Coosa City Elementary School or County?

THOMAS: It was Coosa County Elementary School.

HUNTLEY: And you went from first grade through?

THOMAS: First grade through, it's usually fifth isn't it?

HUNTLEY: Yeah, fifth or sixth grade.

THOMAS: Sixth grade, something like that. After that I attended the Coosa County Training School. You know they had training schools, high schools weren't there at that time.

HUNTLEY: Right. What was it like growing up in Coosa County during those days?

THOMAS: It was very nice. The whites, so to speak had a lot of respect for my father. I very well remember that. Each time that I go there I ask for some of those white folks. They're all about dead now. They were very respectful of my father.

HUNTLEY: This is, you grew up in the '30's. This was during the Depression years, right?

THOMAS: Yes, but I never did know what a Depression was. Even though I was in the country or rural area we had plenty. I didn't know what the Depression was. When I came to Birmingham they were pushing those little red wagons going to the 00:05:00Red Cross or somewhere getting food and bringing it back. I didn't know what that was when I came here.

HUNTLEY: That was different for you. You had not experienced that.

THOMAS: No, we had plenty.

HUNTLEY: Now your father being a blacksmith. Was it his blacksmith shop?

THOMAS: It was his blacksmith shop.

HUNTLEY: So that would then put you in a rather privileged position then, as a family.

THOMAS: Yes, that's right.

HUNTLEY: Then he had the farm as well?

THOMAS: Yes, he had a farm.

HUNTLEY: Then he, people work for him on the farm.

THOMAS: That's right.

HUNTLEY: Now, you came to Birmingham I guess your senior year in high school. Is that when you came to Birmingham?

THOMAS: My senior year in high school, yes. I think I was in the eleventh grade when I came here. I went to Fairfield High School that other year.

HUNTLEY: Did you live in Fairfield?

THOMAS: I didn't live in Fairfield then, but I moved to Fairfield later.

HUNTLEY: When you were going to school in Fairfield, your eleventh grade. What community did move into?

THOMAS: I lived in Rising over here.

HUNTLEY: Near the ballpark.

THOMAS: Rickwood Park.

HUNTLEY: Oh, ok. You went to Fairfield to school. Why did you go to Fairfield?

THOMAS: To tell you the truth I really don't know. It must have been somebody I met who was going there.

HUNTLEY: Right.

THOMAS: I had a child, baby at that time. The Elliots, I don't know if you know them of the city of Birmingham. You know they had their own property out there by Rickwood.

HUNTLEY: Right.

THOMAS: Sam Harris, you remember him?

HUNTLEY: I remember the name.

THOMAS: You know he was a doctor but he died.

HUNTLEY: He lived in that same community?

THOMAS: No, they owned some property out there.

HUNTLEY: Oh, I see. So, when you came to Birmingham in the eleventh grade. You 00:07:00lived in Rising but you went to school at Fairfield. So, you were there for two years then?

THOMAS: Yes, not quite two years.

HUNTLEY: Oh, ok, so it was like the middle of the school year. Why did you come to Birmingham?

THOMAS: Well, I got married and my husband got a job here and I came here then.

HUNTLEY: Oh, ok. You were married then when you finished high school.

THOMAS: I was married when I finished high school. You know at that time they didn't allow you to go to school if you were married but the teachers out there vouched for me to go to school for some reason.

HUNTLEY: Ok. Well, how was the transition then from a rural community to an urban community?

THOMAS: It wasn't bad. I hadn't lived just a country life per say, cause through my father I had mixed with different people you know.

HUNTLEY: Right.

THOMAS: It wasn't too hard for me.

HUNTLEY: What was Fairfield High School like at that time?

THOMAS: It was nice, very nice. You know Fairfield High School was one of your better high schools. I don't know whether you remember that or not.

HUNTLEY: Yes ma'am, I do.

THOMAS: But your [inaudible] finished that to.

HUNTLEY: Right, right.

THOMAS: We had a principal there who was a good principal, Dr. E. J. Oliver. You've heard of him?

HUNTLEY: Yes ma'am, sure have.

THOMAS: I enjoyed going to school there that year.

HUNTLEY: Right.

THOMAS: That year and a half anyway. I think they bent over a little bit to let me go to school in the middle of the year.

HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your husband do?

THOMAS: Well, my husband worked for U.S. Steel. He had a job with them.

HUNTLEY: Did he work in the plant, in the mills, or did he work in the mines?

THOMAS: He worked in the mines. That was U. S. Steel wasn't it?

HUNTLEY: Right, yes ma'am, TCI.

THOMAS: Yeah, that's right, TCI.

HUNTLEY: Did he work in the ore mines or the coal mines?

THOMAS: Coal mines. It was two or three of those fellows that were from Coosa County that worked in the coal mines. They got the job here.

HUNTLEY: Then after you finished high school then what did you do?

THOMAS: My first thing was I had a child after that. I took a course in cosmetology. I went into the beauty field for a while. I had a shop, a beauty shop. I had a lot of interest in that. I had a very, very good business. Of course you know they have a very strong beauticians' organization.

HUNTLEY: Yes ma'am.

THOMAS: I was elected president of that for, I think I remained president statewide for eleven years.

HUNTLEY: So, you were in that career field for quite sometime?

THOMAS: Yes, quite sometime. Then I went back to school during that time. I went back to Miles and finished Miles. Then on from there.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after you finished Miles?

THOMAS: Well, after I finished Miles I got a job. My first job was at Bessemer State Technical College. You know down in Bessemer. You know where that it?

HUNTLEY: Yes ma'am.

THOMAS: I was transferred from there to Lawson State.

HUNTLEY: Oh, I see.

THOMAS: You know how they were transferring courses and things at that time. The state was.

HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to leave the beauty field to go into teaching?

THOMAS: Well, you know there are such things as you can see the handwriting on the wall. That you see that you are going to need more education to become involved in some of the things that you want to do. I've always never been satisfied with status quo. I went on back to Miles and ran my beauty [shop] all at the same time.

HUNTLEY: Where was your shop?

THOMAS: In Fairfield.

HUNTLEY: Now when you went to Miles were you a registered voter by that time?

THOMAS: Yes. You could register at the age of 21. Wasn't that it?

HUNTLEY: Yes ma'am.

THOMAS: Yeah.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember when you first registered to vote here in Birmingham?

THOMAS: When I first went to register to vote they told me that I had to show them that I owned $300.00 worth of property in the county. That was ridiculous wasn't it?

HUNTLEY: Yes, it was.

THOMAS: I had to go back and get a piece of paper.

HUNTLEY: Property qualification?

THOMAS: That's true.

HUNTLEY: You had to take that back?

THOMAS: Yes, back to them and I intended to vote. I went on and got it and carried it to them another time.

HUNTLEY: Did you have to take the test? Was there a test given at the time?

THOMAS: No, they were not giving a test during that time. They had to have that information. I guess that was to subsidize for something, you know.

HUNTLEY: Well, it eliminated some people.

THOMAS: Yes, it would, especially blacks at that time.

HUNTLEY: That's right. In the mid '50's, of course 1954, the Brown vs. Board of Education decision nullified the separate but equal doctrine that was the Plessy vs. Ferguson decision. Of course here in Birmingham the schools would not be desegregated for at least another ten years. Right after that, of course, the bus boycott in Montgomery would take place. Then the NAACP would be outlawed from operating in the state. In '56, one week after the state outlaws the operation of the NAACP, the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights would be organized. Were you at all familiar with any of the ministers that were involved? Or were you at all involved in those initial stages?

THOMAS: Yes, I let the group, who's headed by...what's this minister's name? He 00:14:00was...they had a Christian Movement.

HUNTLEY: Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights.

THOMAS: What was the presidents name?

HUNTLEY: Rev. Shuttlesworth.

THOMAS: No, it wasn't Shuttlesworth. That was before Shuttlesworth's time. Anyway, I let them use a building of mine in Fairfield cause I owned a corner there and I had an extra building besides my business building. I let them use the building and furnished them with telephones during the movement to help them get folks registered to vote. They were supplying transportation and that kind of thing.

HUNTLEY: Right.

THOMAS: When they left...you know how the folks that used to come out of town to 00:15:00do that?

HUNTLEY: Right.

THOMAS: A lot of them put long distance calls on my phone. I say you can't win for losing.

Anyway I went on with it. Trying to help.

HUNTLEY: Now, you became rather active in politics in the mid '60's. Tell me just a bit about that. How did you get involved in politics?

THOMAS: Well, I'll tell you what. Living in Fairfield, they did not have a single black on the council out there. So, the people came to me who were interested in running as a candidate for a seat on the council. They asked me if I would be their campaign manager. Out there in Fairfield they had a building called the Moore's Hall, kind of Christian organization. I agreed, there were 00:16:00seven who qualified to run.

HUNTLEY: Approximately what year is this?

THOMAS: That was 1969. I agreed, I told them if they all would work from one pool I would serve all of them.

HUNTLEY: So, you were there campaign manager for each of those? All seven?

THOMAS: Together. We used the same building. All of them worked in the same building. Out of the seven, six won. Those were the first Black council persons elected out there.

HUNTLEY: So, you elected six out of the seven?

THOMAS: We walked the streets. We went to churches. We raised our money. We didn't spend, the candidates didn't have to spend any money. We had mass 00:17:00meetings at churches and things like that and raising money. I got those ministers going.

HUNTLEY: That was the question I was going to ask. How did you get the people out?

THOMAS: The people came there. I got those ministers to help me get the people out. They supported it. Fairfield was so happy too; you know people there were so happy that they had some blacks on the council.

HUNTLEY: Now this was the first time that blacks actually served? Or was it the first time that blacks had run for office?

THOMAS: No, first time they had served and elected. They had not even tried to run for office.

HUNTLEY: So, this is the very first time that anyone had attempted to run.

THOMAS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: You got six out of how many were on the council?

THOMAS: Well, at that time I think they had, how many did they have? They had about nine.

HUNTLEY: So, they were elected by district?

THOMAS: That's right.

HUNTLEY: So, these seven people were not competing against each other?

THOMAS: No, I'll tell you what had to happen before that. Attorney David Hoods, you've heard of him back there?

HUNTLEY: Yes, ma'am.

THOMAS: We were very close friends. We districted Fairfield in order for persons to have districts to run from. We got that straightened out and that's when they became.

HUNTLEY: That's very interesting because that then opens a door for many other things to take place.

THOMAS: Yes, since then they've always had blacks on the council.

HUNTLEY: Right. Why did they come to you?

THOMAS: Well, I've always been involved in community things. Even from PTA days when my child was in school. I was interested in PTA then they had a Democratic 00:19:00little group out there and all that kind of thing. You know at that time no blacks were Republicans.

HUNTLEY: Right.

THOMAS: I would always go to their meetings. I worked in the PTA. I was one of the presidents at the time. You know, stuff like that.

HUNTLEY: So, you were rather visible in the community?

THOMAS: That's right.

HUNTLEY: You were a community leader.

THOMAS: And running a business there. I had a coffee shop there too that Miles College really supported.

HUNTLEY: The coffee shop that was in Fairfield, you owned that?

THOMAS: Yes. I had a coffee shop and the next building connected to that was my beauty shop. You didn't go to Miles did you?

HUNTLEY: No, ma'am but I know that coffee shop. I spent a lot of time at that coffee shop.

THOMAS: You did?

HUNTLEY: Yes, ma'am.

THOMAS: That was my business. I built it from the ground. Anyway, when I said Miles supported it. The students supported it. I look around 6th Avenue a lot of 00:20:00times and I see a lot of them over there that used to come to my coffee shop.

HUNTLEY: Right.

THOMAS: Get sandwiches on credit. One day I told Chris, you know, runs the limousine thing?

HUNTLEY: Yes, ma'am.

THOMAS: Chris, have you ever payed me for my hamburgers? He just started laughing.

HUNTLEY: I'm sure there are some that didn't pay you for them.

THOMAS: Yeah.

HUNTLEY: At what point did you decide to run for office yourself?

THOMAS: I was in Birmingham, you know at that time. Do you remember Judge Vance?

HUNTLEY: Yes ma'am.

THOMAS: Robert Vance that was killed with that bomb?

HUNTLEY: Yes ma'am.

THOMAS: I started going to the meetings with David Hood all the time. To the state Democratic meetings and things like that. I was elected as a member of the 00:21:00state Democratic Committee of Alabama. Judge Vance, we were in Washington, he said, "Louphenia there's a vacancy in district 39. Why don't you run? You are always talking about women don't do this, that, and the other." I liked him a lot -- he was a nice fellow. I told him, "You're joking. You know women ain't going to win nothing and especially a black woman." He said, "Well, you've got all the black voters." He said, "Come on and try it." He was president of the state Party at that time. He got me in there to run in district 39 then but it's 53 now, see Newton's in that district now.

HUNTLEY: That's right.

THOMAS: The Party got me in there. They didn't put me in there empty handed 00:22:00either with no money or nothing. They gave me money.

HUNTLEY: They supported you?

THOMAS: Very, and they even came out and helped me campaign. Don Singleman, he used to go door to door for me over in the white neighborhood. I think it's a small neighborhood in district 53, but Don Singleman and all of them helped.

HUNTLEY: What year was this that you first ran?

THOMAS: That was, what year was I elected, 1976 or 1977, something like that. Anyway, you know Fred Horn ran against me?

HUNTLEY: Right.

THOMAS: And Wren, you remember Wren? He was a [inaudible].

HUNTLEY: Tommy Wren?

THOMAS: That's right. He was one of them that ran that time against me but I won out over them. So, that was the way that was. I still was elected as a national 00:23:00committee person of the Democratic Party.

HUNTLEY: Did you serve one term?

THOMAS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Why did you decide...Did you run for a second term?

THOMAS: Yes, that's when Fred won.

HUNTLEY: Oh, ok, Fred won then.

THOMAS: Had one of my daughters to pass at that time.

HUNTLEY: I didn't know that.

THOMAS: You didn't know my daughter did you?

HUNTLEY: No, ma'am.

THOMAS: She went to church. She finished Talladega. You know all those folks up there, Talladegians, Mason Davis and all them went to school at Talladega. She joined up there. She got married and she died in '78. That was the year that I was supposed to be reelected but she died.

HUNTLEY: What was it like serving? Now you were the first black woman to serve 00:24:00in the state legislature.

THOMAS: That's right.

HUNTLEY: What was the experience like?

THOMAS: Well, it was a great experience. When I went there, there were 104 whites, all male. They treated me very, very nice. I think they had a reason or else I had the personality that they really admired. Anyway, I enjoyed it. Then a lady was elected from St. Clair County. She was white. I enjoyed it. They were very nice. Very nice in helping me to understand the rules. You know the rule book in legislature that's your political bible they say. They helped me a lot. 00:25:00Of course everybody who goes there has to learn it and I did. I gained a lot from it.

HUNTLEY: What do you think was your most proud accomplishment?

THOMAS: Well, I'll tell you what. You know Governor Wallace has all these two year institutions, two year colleges, you know.

HUNTLEY: Right.

THOMAS: They were there lined up one day and all of them -- at that time you had about seven blacks from Jefferson County serving in the legislature - Jackson, you know.

HUNTLEY: Ronald Jackson.

THOMAS: Ronald Jackson, Tucker, Hillard, oh, a bunch of them, seven of them. They had never gotten a dime for any of the schools here. I saw all those folks 00:26:00in line going to the speaker of the house. I said, what are they in line for? Some of them told me that they are getting money for those junior colleges. I said well we've got a junior college. So, I got up and got in line. The blacks told me that you're losing your time. You're wasting your time, you might as well sit down. I stayed in that line and when I got up there to the Speaker of the House he said, "come and talk with me." I did, later. I got the most segregated person here from Jefferson County. He could win any bill, he could push it through.

HUNTLEY: Who was that?

THOMAS: What was his name? He was out here in the eastern section.

HUNTLEY: Oh, ok, eastern section.

THOMAS: I kept on going and I would go up there and Wallace sent for me. Wallace and those folks helped me get 2.2 million dollars for Lawson State.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

THOMAS: That's right.

HUNTLEY: So, that's the first money Lawson State had received from the state?

THOMAS: That's the first they had ever received above the regular appropriation.

HUNTLEY: Right.

THOMAS: Every school got their annual appropriation. They had never gotten a dime over that before. Jessie Lewis came into the presidency there afterwards. It got messed up somehow. I'll admit that. I didn't like it. Anyway, they had the 2.2 million dollars. That was either 1978, '79 bond issue.

HUNTLEY: Was [inaudible] Kennedy president then?

THOMAS: No, Jessie came after Kennedy. That was Kennedy's last year.

HUNTLEY: So, you then assisted Lawson State in receiving more money.

THOMAS: I didn't assist Lawson State. Lawson State hadn't even applied for any money. I just went on and got that money myself. I got those white fellows to help. When I got the money all the blacks been there eight years, they said you mean to tell me that you got it. I said, yes, I did, I got it and it will be sent to Lawson State. They didn't want to believe it. I said well, you all don't get up and try and see what you can do. You just sit here one time. I remember 00:29:00Tucker trying to get some money for Hudson out there. He didn't get anywhere with it. You know you got to get in with the folks that handle the money.

HUNTLEY: Yes ma'am. Was there a black caucus at that time?

THOMAS: No, well, yes it was, but it wasn't too strong at that time because you didn't have as many blacks, you know, black executive officials at that time, but now you have them from Selma and everywhere. They have a good black caucus now. I'm not messing up this am I?

HUNTLEY: No, that's fine. So, you then, your most memorable accomplishment was the getting of 2.2 million dollars for Lawson State.

THOMAS: Yes, I think it was.

HUNTLEY: Were there other areas that you worked in that you're proud of in terms 00:30:00of assisting your contingency?

THOMAS: Well, it wasn't during the time that I was there, they weren't too aggressive about doing nothing too much. Your legislative groups waste a lot of time sitting, looking, talking, eating. I tell them they eat peanuts and read newspapers. Anyway, they didn't promote many projects or anything for their districts. I think that, that has improved some now.

HUNTLEY: Were you able to promote any other projects for your district? Did you show them in other areas that it could be done?

THOMAS: Well, I talked to the people in my district to let me know if they had other things that they would like to accomplish. But you know folks don't foresee what they need to tell their representatives and they don't give you too 00:31:00much to go on, you see. They do more now then they did then. We need to as a community people and our various districts have more to ask of your representatives to do. They will not be able to sit and think of everything that you would like to have.

HUNTLEY: Are you still actively involved with the Democratic Party?

THOMAS: Oh, yes. I go to their meetings and things. You know they have a state Party and that's about it. I don't travel any more. I traveled for eight years with them on a national level. That was when Judge Vance was involved. If he hadn't been killed he would have been the national chairman. All of those people 00:32:00had so much respect for him.

HUNTLEY: There's a controversy now in relationship to cross over voting.

THOMAS: I'm not to much for that cross over voting. I don't know whether you are Republican or a Democrat. I'm a Democrat and I don't go for the cross over voting. Of course I heard Mayor Arrington say for them to go and vote. He's encouraging Democrats to cross over. Now, he doesn't speak for me. He speaks for Richard Arrington. He can't speak for the Party because he doesn't hold an office in the Party other then a delegate. I never did believe in cross over voting. I guess in this case if the people are not satisfied with what they have 00:33:00then they would have to go to the poll and cross over.

HUNTLEY: Well some are suggesting that you cross over to help either Blount or Fob and you help to determine who the opponent of the Democrat would be.

THOMAS: Yeah, I heard that too, which would be favorable for Don Siegelman. Well, if it will I will do anything to help Don. I'm just talking about my belief as far. I don't much believe in cross over voting.

HUNTLEY: So, do you think, some say that people will be confused by crossing over because if you cross over to vote Republican then you have a stake in that candidate that you vote for and then come November these black people that voted 00:34:00cross over may go back to the poll again and vote for the Republican. Have you heard that argument?

THOMAS: Well, I don't much believe they will do that. They're looking at the individual. If they are for the Democratic first they'll vote for the Democratic even if they did vote.

HUNTLEY: So, you don't think have...

THOMAS: I don't think that will have to much bearing on it.

HUNTLEY: Some say that will give more value to the black vote. In fact if you go and vote Republican this time because it puts more value on your vote now because the Democrat will not take the black vote for granted. Some say that the Democrats are taking the black vote for granted. If there's just one on one, Republican and Democrat, the Democrat simply assumes that blacks are going to 00:35:00vote Democratic. With really having to give the black community any real serious look. Is that...

THOMAS: That has some value. You know people are kind of like this. They go for the person. So many people, especially blacks don't know too much about the Republican Party anyway. Most blacks have voted Democratic all these years. So, I don't know, they go by some individuals. How much that individual impressed them.

HUNTLEY: You think they go by the person rather then the party?

THOMAS: I think so. Sometimes they do. I'm strictly for party.

HUNTLEY: Right.

THOMAS: A lot of folks haven't been involved in party politics so to speak.

HUNTLEY: That's right.

THOMAS: And a lot of them have. I don't know.

HUNTLEY: How do you think the Party has changed over time? In terms of what is good for the black constituency. Has the Democratic Party been good for black folk? Has the Republican Party been totally out of it as far as black folk are concerned? How do you view that?

THOMAS: Well, you know blacks always thought that the Republican Party consisted of the elites. You know how we like to stay away from that. You don't have to many black Republicans anyway. Blacks have always favored the Democratic Party. Now you have some blacks. Richard Finley, he's a Republican and we always talk 00:37:00about it. You don't have too many Republicans, black Republicans.

HUNTLEY: Probably have more now than we did ten years ago.

THOMAS: Yeah, you have more.

HUNTLEY: It's a few more.

THOMAS: I've noticed quite a few more.

HUNTLEY: Still black folks primarily vote Democratically.

THOMAS: That's correct, yeah, they do. What do you think? I know I'm not supposed to ask you questions. (Laughing)

HUNTLEY: Well, I just think that whatever anyway that the black community can [inaudible] any semblance of power. I think they need to do that regardless of what that means as far as the Democratic or the Republican Party is concerned.

THOMAS: What's best for them.

HUNTLEY: What's best for the black community. I don't think anyone in the other parties are looking out for the best interest of black people. I think black 00:38:00people have to do that regardless of who they may encounter. Of course to date we have looked at that as being a Democratic thrust rather than a Republican thrust, you know. I think we have to start evaluating. I think it's a good thing to also look at the individuals and see what...

THOMAS: And evaluate the parties too.

HUNTLEY: Yes ma'am.

THOMAS: That's correct, I think so. Whatever's best for us.

HUNTLEY: That's right.

THOMAS: Now, I'll tell you what. The blacks really haven't gotten into the Republican Party and pushed. We have pushed in the Democratic Party. All of us have pushed for blacks. Nobody has been in the Republican Party to really push for them.

HUNTLEY: That's right.

THOMAS: Of course you know fiery Joe will get up there and clown like everything 00:39:00in the middle of all of them. Really, you don't have to worry about it. They have had to listen. I noticed just recently they made Joe a national member. You see you've got to get blacks in that Republican thing to see what it's all about.

HUNTLEY: So, you think there's a need for people like Richard Finley who's in the Republican Party. Joe Dixon...

THOMAS: Yeah, Joe, I've been knowing him all his life. You know Joe's got a big mouth. You know he's [inaudible] among the Republicans. Of course Joe was always in my coffee shop, a regular, you know. You remember Rambo that was out there at Miles?

HUNTLEY: I didn't go to Miles.

THOMAS: Anyway, I don't know when Joe started with the Republican Party.

HUNTLEY: I'm not sure when Joe began either.

THOMAS: Anyway, Joe was kind of trying to push his way into some of the officers of the Party at one time, I believe.

HUNTLEY: Right, until Fob, no not Fob, the previous Governor and Joe, I think, had somewhat difficulty.

THOMAS: Who was the Governor before Fob James?

HUNTLEY: Guy Hunt. I think they fell out.

THOMAS: I never did care for Guy Hunt.

HUNTLEY: What do you see then as the future of blacks and politics in the state of Alabama?

THOMAS: I see a bright future for them if they would just stick to their guns. I 00:41:00think that, you said in politics or in a particular party?

HUNTLEY: In politics, in general.

THOMAS: More of them need to become involved in politics. Most of our people are lost when it comes to even general conversation about politics. I've been to club groups and things and you'll be surprised the number of your school teachers. You better not ask them the name of their representative in their district. They don't know. I tell them each time that, that's a shame. Suppose if I was a student of yours and asked you that and you wouldn't know. See, those kinds of things. Those are small things but it's something that you people 00:42:00should learn to do. They don't know their representatives in their district, no.

Today just ask some of the folk over there on 6th Avenue. Who is the state representative over here in this district. They wouldn't tell you Demetrius Newton. They wouldn't know. That's a short coming for us.

HUNTLEY: Political education is so important and they're not doing a good job with that.

THOMAS: In our church we don't have anything like that. They should understand that they should have some kind of activities committee or political activities committee in the church.

Let them just generally discuss it. You don't have to say what party you believe in or nothing, but I think that should go along with it.

HUNTLEY: How would evaluate Dick Arrington's 20 years as mayor of Birmingham?

THOMAS: Well, actually I think Mayor Arrington has done an excellent job of trying to build the city. He's done very well in approving the appearance in various communities in the city limits. I think he's done a very good job. Now I must be fair, I've been knowing Richard since he was in knee pants. I used to sign in for him at PTA meetings because his parents didn't go to PTA meetings. 00:44:00We all lived in Fairfield. He has done well but I think we need a change now. After you stay in a place for so long you get tired. You've accomplished what you've wanted to accomplish now let somebody else have it. That's my opinion. I've got nothing against Arrington. He has his peculiarities.

HUNTLEY: What do you think about the thrust for MAPS at this point?

THOMAS: I don't know whether I could just totally agree with MAPS or not. I'll have to give it some more, you know, attach more attention to it.

HUNTLEY: Right. That seems to be one of the questions that's going to be coming up this summer of course.

THOMAS: About the MAPS?

HUNTLEY: Yes ma'am.

THOMAS: I know they're putting out signs and so forth. It hasn't impressed the community yet.

Who is the man that's the director of it? He is a Persian man. What is his name?

HUNTLEY: Hess, Donald Hess.

THOMAS: I don't think he's quite familiar with how to really push something over, to put it over, you know.

HUNTLEY: Right.

THOMAS: Maybe he is, I don't know. I don't really know him.

HUNTLEY: It's going to be interesting though. Many people look at it as being a Birmingham incentive and many whites that live outside of the city will look at it in that manner and will vote against it because of that.

THOMAS: Yeah, they will.

HUNTLEY: Then there are those in the city who are agreeing with the concept of MAPS because it will improve the city overall but they're really concerned that 00:46:00black contractors and other blacks, like attorneys, are not getting the same kind of benefits out of MAPS like they should be.

THOMAS: You mean they have included them up to this point as they should.

HUNTLEY: Yes ma'am. So, those are the kinds of criticisms people are raising about it.

THOMAS: They need to pay more attention to that and make some guarantees to some of these contractors and things.

HUNTLEY: That's right.

THOMAS: I noticed the architects. They haven't included Woods and Owens, not because I know them so well...

HUNTLEY: I guess that's the leading black architects in the city. Is there anything else that you would like to include in this before we conclude? We've covered a lot of material from Coosa County to Fairfield to Birmingham.

THOMAS: Tell you what, I hope I haven't talked too much.

HUNTLEY: No, you have not.

THOMAS: I always like to let the interviewer ask the questions. I don't know of anything. I'll tell you one thing I'll like to see given more consideration in this town. More administrative positions for women, you see.

THOMAS: You know I served on the Birmingham Regional Health Systems Agency. 00:48:00That's an organization that approved all federal funds to the various hospitals here. I noticed in that, it was my fight always with them. They had 22 members on that board and most of them were doctors and that was wrong in the first place. You know each doctor was going to be for his hospital. You didn't have any women in too many worthwhile positions. There was one other black lady on that thing. She was an instructor in nursing. She told me, she said, you know you can't hardly get your black nurses and things to want to participate. I said, well, they better if they ever want to get any leadership. Anyway, I 00:49:00served there four years. That was interesting. They didn't include too many women.

HUNTLEY: That should be really looked at very closely.

THOMAS: Closely, yes. Most big cities now they aren't missing out on the women too much.

You've got to earn that. You don't push without that. You get a lot of criticism if you do in any size city. I noticed in New York the other day, the mayor of New York, I like him. He was appointing some woman to something and he was laughing. He said, if I want to stay he...

HUNTLEY: He knew he had to do it. I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule and come and sit and talk with me.

THOMAS: Thank goodness I didn't have a schedule today.

HUNTLEY: Yes, I agree.

THOMAS: I was just hoping that I would be feeling well enough to come up here.

HUNTLEY: You're looking good and I'm glad that you were feeling good today. I certainly appreciate it.