LaVerne Revis Martin Interviewed on July 17, 1996

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. LaVerne Revis Martin for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is July 17, 1996. Thank you, Mrs. Martin for taking time out of your schedule to sit and talk with us today about the Movement.

MARTIN: Thanks for inviting me.

HUNTLEY: I would like to start by asking you a couple of general questions about your background. Were your mother and father from Alabama?

MARTIN: My father was from Mississippi and my mother was from Birmingham, Alabama.

HUNTLEY: What part of Mississippi did he come from?

MARTIN: Meridian.

HUNTLEY: He moved from Meridian?

MARTIN: Yes, he moved to Sumter County [Alabama] and from Sumter County to Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: Were you born in Birmingham?

MARTIN: I was born and raised in Birmingham in Collegeville.

HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have?

MARTIN: I have six sisters and one brother.

HUNTLEY: Where do you fit in the family?

MARTIN: I'm the baby girl. There's one boy, he's the baby of all.

HUNTLEY: So you had a lot of people who gave you orders then.

MARTIN: That's right, everybody did.

HUNTLEY: You said you were raised up in Collegeville.

MARTIN: I sure was.

HUNTLEY: What elementary school did you start first grade?

MARTIN: I went to Hudson.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Hudson Elementary School?

MARTIN: It was fun. Everybody in the neighborhood was there. There was no busing at the time so we knew everybody because we all lived in the community. It was a neighborhood school.

HUNTLEY: Shelley Stewart went to Hudson.

MARTIN: He did. And, he also attended Bethel Church when we were growing up.

HUNTLEY: So you knew him?

MARTIN: Yes, I knew him personally.

HUNTLEY: So you probably remember when he first started on the air?

MARTIN: Yes, I remember everything about Shelley. We're friends.

HUNTLEY: In growing up in Collegeville, what kind of community was that?

MARTIN: Well, it was a nice community. It was very nice and very quiet. It was mostly single homes. That was before the times of the projects. It was homes everywhere until they tore them down and built the projects.

HUNTLEY: What kinds of occupations did people have that lived in Collegeville?

MARTIN: There were mostly a lot of school teachers and nurses.

HUNTLEY: What type of work did your mother do?

MARTIN: My mother owned a cleaners, Social Cleaners.

HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your father do?

MARTIN: My father worked at U. S. Pipe and Foundry.

HUNTLEY: How much education did they have?

MARTIN: Well, my mother finished Parker Industrial High School and my father stopped at the 4th grade. He stopped to help take care of the family.

HUNTLEY: So your mother's business became a family business, did you work there?

MARTIN: Everyday. Just no pay. And, my mother had the cleaners and my grandmother had a business, so it was always something for us to do. We grew up working with the public.

HUNTLEY: What kind of business did your grandmother have?

MARTIN: They had a little cafe.

HUNTLEY: So you were surrounded by entrepreneurs?

MARTIN: That's right.

HUNTLEY: You left Hudson and went to Parker, is that right?

MARTIN: I went to the Annex, and, then to Parker.

HUNTLEY: What was the Annex?

MARTIN: It was little houses where we had school.

HUNTLEY: Was that because of the number of students you had at Parker?

MARTIN: Right. Everybody had to go to Parker.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Parker?

MARTIN: Well, I remember a lot of things. I was in the choir and also, just once I remember being the most popular queen of the high school. So, that was a highlight in my day. I took business, sewing, dress making and designing. That was something I loved to do.

HUNTLEY: Did you use that in your mother's business after you finished or while you were going to school?

MARTIN: I did a lot of sewing in the neighborhood. And, sometime I did do a 00:05:00little repair.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school?

MARTIN: I went to State Vocational Trade School. My daddy told me I had to go to school or get a job. So I decided to go out to State Vocational Trade School and further my education in dressmaking and designing. After that I got married.

HUNTLEY: And started your family.

MARTIN: Yes. I have four children. Two boys and two girls.

HUNTLEY: Grandchildren?

MARTIN: I have 12.

HUNTLEY: In the area that you lived, where was Bethel Baptist Church?

MARTIN: Right across the street on the corner.

HUNTLEY: And, your father was actively involved in the Movement. How was he affiliated?

MARTIN: He was on the Executive Board in the Movement.

HUNTLEY: Of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights?

MARTIN: Yes, that's right.

HUNTLEY: So, is he one of those individuals that initiated or help to start the organization?

MARTIN: He sure did.

HUNTLEY: So that meant that you had no alternative but to be involved.

MARTIN: No. My father was totally involved in the Movement. And, from living in Collegeville he was the President of the Park and Recreation Board, so we were all raised in the park.

HUNTLEY: He was President of the Park and Recreation Board?

MARTIN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Was that a board in Collegeville?

MARTIN: That was the one park that we had in Collegeville.

HUNTLEY: Okay. He was the director of that particular park.

MARTIN: Yes, he was.

HUNTLEY: So your family, it would seem, would be one that was looked up to by others in the neighborhood.

MARTIN: They were well known. Everybody out there knew him.

HUNTLEY: So he was known as an activist.

MARTIN: He was. Even when he retired he went into the cleaners business. He helped my mother pick up clothes all over the neighborhood and everything.

HUNTLEY: What other kinds of activities was he involved in with the Movement?

MARTIN: Well, he was there for all the planning committees and all the programs that were set up. We went to march in Montgomery. He and I went together.

HUNTLEY: This was the march from Selma to Montgomery?

MARTIN: Yes. We went on the bus from Birmingham, and, then we marched after we got to Montgomery.

HUNTLEY: Let's back up just a bit, because a lot took place before 1965. You, now living so close to the church, the church was bombed on several occasions, were you a witness to any of that activity?

MARTIN: Well, the first bombing I was living in Chicago and I discovered the 00:08:00bomb before it went off when John L. Lewis moved the bomb. I alerted them when I was coming home from work. Allen Lomax was my boss and he brought me home. As he went to put me out I saw all this smoke up in the corner on the side of the church. Of course, I was away the first time so I was always looking for that bomb. My parents had a little room that they closed out on the front of the porch just so the guards would be able to watch. And, I alerted them and I went around to the back.

HUNTLEY: So this is the second bombing, right?

MARTIN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What year was that? The first one was in '56.

MARTIN: I'm not exactly sure.

HUNTLEY: Was this at night when you came home?

MARTIN: It was at night. It was like before day in the morning. Nobody was sitting on the front in that little room that my dad had built for them. They were around on the back that's why they missed it. So I went around there and told them it was a bomb out there.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember the men that were guarding that night?

MARTIN: I don't know exactly who was out there, but John L. Lewis, which is known as Will Hall, and Colonel Johnson came out and they went toward the bomb. I was standing on the porch and John L. Lewis lifted that bomb up and put it in the street. Colonel Johnson was right behind him, but John L. picked it up by himself and put it in the street. It went off and made a big hole in the middle of the street.

HUNTLEY: Did you see it when it actually went off?

MARTIN: Yes, I saw it. I was running across the back and was out on the front porch. My parents and my children were inside.

HUNTLEY: Were there any injuries?

MARTIN: My daughter, Kimberly was a baby at the time, and she was laying on the bed and glass was just around her. She has a cut on her forehead that resulted from that. So, when I looked around I tried to find her and I couldn't find her. One of the neighbors had carried her to the hospital. I went from hospital to hospital trying to find my baby. But they stitched her up and everything but she has that scar.

HUNTLEY: I assume you attended mass meetings?

MARTIN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Can you describe what a mass meeting was like?

MARTIN: It was just something that you'll never forget. We would always sing We 00:11:00Shall Overcome, and a minister would be from different churches. There were times when we would go from church to church to the meetings. It was always somebody out there guarding, trying to keep us alive, but they were fun.

HUNTLEY: Did you go on a regular basis?

MARTIN: I went every Monday.

HUNTLEY: How did you get there?

MARTIN: My daddy. He was always there.

HUNTLEY: Were other brothers and sisters involved, as well?

MARTIN: My sister Robbie Revis Smith and my brother, James Revis. My sister, Alfreda(Inaudible). We all went to the meetings.

HUNTLEY: Did you participate in the demonstrations?

MARTIN: Yes, I did.

HUNTLEY: What was it like participating in the demonstrations?

MARTIN: Well, I went to Woolworth's and sat at the lunch counters. And, it just 00:12:00so happened I was there when there was a White gentleman that coughed and spat in the man's face that was next to me. I was real glad it wasn't me, because I knew I wasn't non-violent. Also, I went to a Baptist church that was over on 26th Street.

HUNTLEY: Before you go to that. Tell me about the experience at the sit-in. You said a man spat in the face of Black man that was sitting there?

MARTIN: Right.

HUNTLEY: What happened?

MARTIN: He smiled at him. He didn't do anything. He was non-violent. He did what we were supposed to do.

HUNTLEY: Are you suggesting that you're glad that it was him because you don't know that you could have been non-violent in that case?

MARTIN: I don't know. I would have hoped that I could have been. But, he did the right thing. HUNTLEY: How many of you were sitting in that day?

MARTIN: I imagine about 10.

HUNTLEY: Did they close the restaurant?

MARTIN: No.

HUNTLEY: Did they serve you?

MARTIN: They served us. They didn't want to serve us, but at that time they did serve us. He just didn't want to be sitting beside us.

HUNTLEY: So there were no arrests?

MARTIN: There were no arrests made.

HUNTLEY: How did you prepare for that sit-in? Was there any instructions given at the mass meeting or after the mass meeting or just prior to going? How did that all transpire?

MARTIN: Well, they prepared us. We already knew that we were non-violent. So, there were different groups going different places and, it just so happened that my group went to Woolworth's. We were going in different directions. That was just one of my experiences. Like sitting in lunch counters, and, then on Sunday, 00:14:00they did a thing for churches, different churches.

HUNTLEY: Did you sit at lunch counters more than that one time?

MARTIN: Yes, I did. I sat-in at Newberry's but no incident. That was the only one that had an incident.

HUNTLEY: Were you ever involved in any of the mass marches during the '63 demonstrations from the church?

MARTIN: I was always in the marches.

HUNTLEY: What was that experience like?

MARTIN: It was an experience. I grew up next door to Rev. Shuttlesworth. Even with my father and Rev. Shuttlesworth, I just knew I had to do what I had to do. And, I knew what was right to do and what I believed in, and I had no problem doing that because I knew there would be a change. We had to make the difference. It was what I needed to do.

HUNTLEY: Now, you mentioned another event that you were involved in where the 00:15:00churches were concerned, can you describe that? What was that about?

MARTIN: One Sunday morning we were supposed to be going to 11:00 o'clock service and when we got up the steps, there was a White gentleman that came to the door and he was well dressed. We were well dressed, too. So, he said that, "We segegated here." He couldn't even pronounce the word and he wouldn't let us in. So we didn't do anything. We just turned around and left. That's the way we were instructed to do.

HUNTLEY: How many of you participated in that?

MARTIN: It was approximately about 20 that went to that particular church.

HUNTLEY: He was the only White person that came to the door?

MARTIN: He was the spokesman for the group.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember how many men and how many women were with you?

MARTIN: I don't know just to break it up, but I'd say it was about 20 of us that went.

HUNTLEY: But it was both male and female?

MARTIN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Did you attempt to go to other churches?

MARTIN: We were just assigned to that one church for that day.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember the name of the church?

MARTIN: It was right next to Carraway Hospital and it was that big church on the corner. HUNTLEY: On 26th Street?

MARTIN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: So there was no incident?

MARTIN: No. We left. We were trained to do that?

HUNTLEY: What other activities were you involved in that relates to the Movement?

MARTIN: Well, I was there when everybody went to jail. My father went to jail. And, my sister went, Robbie Smith. I was there at 16th Church. It just so happened that I didn't get arrested. Not that I wasn't there, in the way, but I 00:17:00didn't get arrested that particular day. But, as far as when the girls were bombed at 16th Street, Denise McNair, her parents were affiliated with the cleaners that my mother was affiliated with. They did the cleaning for her. So that was Mr. Pippens granddaughter, so I knew her personally. I attended that funeral and somehow my picture got on the front page coming down the steps.

HUNTLEY: What was it like attending the funeral?

MARTIN: It was hard. It was just awesome. It was something that you won't ever forget. HUNTLEY: Where was the funeral held?

MARTIN: They had it on 6th Avenue.

HUNTLEY: 6th Avenue Baptist on the south side?

MARTIN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: So you also attended the march from Selma to Montgomery for voting rights.

MARTIN: Right.

HUNTLEY: As you look back on those experiences, how do you think they impacted upon your life?

MARTIN: Well, I think that those are experiences that I'll never forget. It makes a difference when I see someone in a great position. I felt good when I had my office and employees, both Black and White, working under me in different capacities at different times in my life. I've been in management a lot. But, it made me feel good to know that had we not marched, had we not done all those 00:19:00things, we would never have gotten to be in the positions we were in. Out of Collegeville, there are doctors and lawyers and everything. So, it made a big impact. It also gave us the responsibility to know that we had to make it. We made a difference. I was there once when Rev. Shuttlesworth, you know the school bus came down with his kids, and I went out and told him that they didn't even let the kids out in front of the house. The bus just passed his house and went all around the corner. So, he got in his car, went around by Hudson School and stopped the bus. He turned him around and made him take the kids back home. That was just something to see.

HUNTLEY: This was when his children were going where?

MARTIN: They were coming from Parker.

HUNTLEY: And they were riding the 'special'?

MARTIN: Exactly.

HUNTLEY: What did that experience mean to you?

MARTIN: It meant that he was in control. It meant that he was in control and it was so wrong for them not to let them out at their house. That was just being prejudiced and that's what we were trying to get away from.

HUNTLEY: How would you describe Fred Shuttlesworth?

MARTIN: I would describe him as the bravest person I know in all walks of life. I would say that he had courage to do anything and everything. If he made up his mind that he was going to do it, he did just that. As a pastor, he was very good. He was a good minister and preacher. He went out a lot but he would think of home and be back there. I remember the experience when he and his wife was 00:21:00beaten up at Phillips High School. And, then that's the school my children attended. I worked hard at that PTA and Band Booster Club and stuff like that.

HUNTLEY: In 1957 you couldn't go there.

MARTIN: Right. You couldn't even go.

HUNTLEY: How well did you know his children?

MARTIN: They lived next door. I still know them well. We're still friends.

HUNTLEY: Those relationships that developed during the struggle, do you ever get together with any of those people that may have left here and may return periodically?

MARTIN: Yes, the Shuttlesworths were here a few weeks ago. I always hear from them and see them. There are a lot of people from the Movement, like Clio 00:22:00Kennedy and Gay and just all of them, we still know each other and we're still friends.

HUNTLEY: Are there ever efforts to get everybody together to reminisce over old times?

MARTIN: We haven't had just a plain gathering or reunion. But there are times that things come up that the Movement people are there.

HUNTLEY: Who are some of the other people that stand out in your mind that were active during the Movement days?

MARTIN: I used to go down to meetings, Julia Range, she worked as the secretary of the Movement and Dester Brooks always worked on the executive committee. She 00:23:00had a floral shop here. And, Rev. Gardner of course and the choir. Mr. Mac Roberson. A lot of people in Collegeville were faithful until they died. There were a lot of people in our neighborhood that went to jail--Frances Foster White, Virginia Clark and different ones like that.

HUNTLEY: Were most people that were members of your church and the community involved in the Movement?

MARTIN: There were a lot of people so scared. They were so afraid and they wouldn't come that way. Their parents were afraid and they didn't allow, even the children that wanted to they didn't allow them to participate. There were a 00:24:00lot of people even now saying they were a part of it and they were nowhere around. A lot of parents didn't allow their children to go. But, I was fortunate. My parents were involved, so I didn't have that problem.

HUNTLEY: Did your mother attend the meetings, as well?

MARTIN: My mother didn't attend the meetings. My mother was like a (Inaudible) person. She was always there with the babies and lending a helping hand with her business, but she did not attend the meetings. She was supportive of the meetings.

HUNTLEY: Your father also served as one of the guards. Did he ever guard for the churches or the homes?

MARTIN: Yes, he sat out there and guarded during a shift. I took turns and I guarded my shift, too.

HUNTLEY: Oh, you used to guard as well?

MARTIN: I used to guard. I'd sit right out there with them, sure.

HUNTLEY: Were you all armed?

MARTIN: Dester Brooks used to come out there and guard, and Miss Minnie Eden, 00:25:00different ones like that would come out there and sit.

HUNTLEY: Was anyone armed at the time?

MARTIN: No.

HUNTLEY: What would you do if you saw someone doing something?

MARTIN: Well, we would try to alert the police department that was there. I know after that bomb that I discovered, Bull Connor was on the railroad tracks coming from the back, so he was in our neighborhood before day in the morning for some reason. But, I would think that if we called for help, that's basically all we could do. We were supposed to be non- violent.

HUNTLEY: You had mentioned that after the bombing the police came to interrogate you. What was that about?

MARTIN: After I discovered the bomb and it went off, I was just horrified. The police came and they wanted to insist that I go down and take a lie detector 00:26:00test because they said that I must have planted the bomb, put the bomb out there. That's when my daddy was very outspoken, very firm. When he spoke, you listened. He told them that I was not going down there that night. He said, "You see the shape she's in, she's upset." He said, "We'll think about it and if I decide, she'll come down tomorrow." I went down and took the lie detector test the next day. They put me through an ordeal. They asked me a lot of questions. But they were really trying to say that I planted the bomb and also, Mr. Lomax, they were saying that we must have put the bomb out there ourselves. It was in a five-gallon can and the bomb was down in there. But, I passed the test.

HUNTLEY: What kind of questions did they ask you?

MARTIN: It was all kinds of questions. They wanted to know our background. And, then they went on to ask over and over did we put the bomb out there and what did we do afterwards. Just exactly, word for word. But, I told them for sure I didn't put the bomb out there.

HUNTLEY: Were you the only one that took the lie detector test?

MARTIN: Mr. Lomax, my boss. He brought me home so he had to take it, too.

HUNTLEY: Where were you working at the time?

MARTIN: I was working for a little restaurant. I was the manager. He had to bring me home. They had the little small cafes then. That's what it was.

HUNTLEY: Where was that located?

MARTIN: It was in Collegeville. It was near where Carver High School is now. 00:28:00But, it wasn't there then.

HUNTLEY: We've covered a lot of territory. Is there anything else that you would like to share with us that relate to the Movement or to you personally?

MARTIN: I would like to say that after one of the bombings, not that one in particular, my sister, Alfreda, she was trying to come to the house to see if my parents were hurt, to see how they were doing and they had almost put us in jail trying to get up to the house. She and her husband tried to get up to the house and they almost went to jail for trying to get up there to see what was going on.

HUNTLEY: The police would not allow it?

MARTIN: They would not allow us to go that way even though the family was still up there at the house. So Alfreda and Johnny almost went to jail for that.

HUNTLEY: Were you at the house?

MARTIN: Yes, I was at the house.

HUNTLEY: But they were not allowed to get there?

MARTIN: Right. They almost went to jail out there. They were very rude out there, acting like we were the enemy.

HUNTLEY: In many cities, there's a slogan on police cars "We're here to protect and serve." Would you look at the Birmingham Police Department as being there for that purpose?

MARTIN: No. They were not there to protect and serve. Actually, if you saw a police at that particular time and you could out run them, your best bet was to do that because they were actually putting your hands on top of the cars and doing all sorts of things to people at the time. So, they weren't there for that reason.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever witness any of the incidents with the police or did anyone ever tell you about something that happened to them personally?

MARTIN: Well, the only thing I can say I was stopped once and they had me put my 00:30:00hands over the car. I never drank anything so they couldn't get me with alcohol or anything like that, but they searched me right out there in the street. I didn't have any weapons on me or anything. They talked nasty to me, saying some vulgar things to me, but they did turn me loose.

HUNTLEY: Were you alone?

MARTIN: Yes. And, once again I was coming down by A. G. Gaston, by the college and one of them got behind me, so I just put my foot on the gas and I ran and circled some little corners that I knew he wouldn't be familiar with and lost him, because I would never get caught out in that predicament again.

HUNTLEY: That was at night?

MARTIN: That was at night.

HUNTLEY: What role did Shelley play in the Movement?

MARTIN: He did everything on that radio. He kept everything going. He did a lot 00:31:00of commercials. He told all about where the meetings were going to be for people to get involved. I remember he was always around, even when they named the street after Rev. Shuttlesworth, he was right there in the middle of that, because I was there, too. He's always been around.

HUNTLEY: Mrs. Martin, I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule. I know you need to get back to work, so maybe at some later date, we'll be able to do this again. You've been very helpful.

MARTIN: It's been a nice thing to just meet you and to be here. It was such a pleasure.