Kathleen Bunton Interviewed on September 6, 1996

MYLES: This is an interview with Kathleen Bunton for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. This is Friday, September 6, 1996. I am Binnie Myles. How are you, Mrs. Bunton?

BUNTON: Just fine.

MYLES: Good. I want to talk a little bit about your background. Are you from Birmingham? BUNTON: Yes, I am.

MYLES: In what section of the city were your born?

BUNTON: North Birmingham, out in that area. Actually, we resided in Trussville, but I was born here in Birmingham.

MYLES: What hospital, do you remember?

BUNTON: University. At that time it was Old Hillman Hospital.

MYLES: And you grew up in North Birmingham?

BUNTON: Yes, it was in an area identified as Byers Hill.

MYLES: Yes, in fact we found out that Byers Hill had several names, but there was man by the name of Mr. Byers or something.

BUNTON: Right.

MYLES: Did you ever know him?

BUNTON: Yes, I knew him very well and all his family members.

MYLES: What age can you go back to?

BUNTON: Probably about five. I had gone to school a year in Trussville, Alabama.

MYLES: So you went to school real early?

BUNTON: Yes. My mother was very friendly with the principal and, ofcourse I had an older sister who attended school. She was in 1st grade. I was not old enough to go and I would cry everyday. And, the principal said, "Well, let her come with her." So, my mother let me go to school with my older sister. I had done so well that she decided to promote me.

MYLES: What age were you when you started school in the Byers Hill area?

BUNTON: I was seven years old.

MYLES: So you got promoted to the next grade?

BUNTON: Yes. The next year we moved to Birmingham, but I went to Hudson Elementary. No, I guess I was six. And, then the rest of my family went to Hooper City. I had a problem with motion sickness and I could not ride the bus.

MYLES: When you were a little girl?

BUNTON: Very little.

MYLES: So what happened when you would get on the bus?

BUNTON: I would get so nauseated, I couldn't stand it, so the doctor assured my mother that after about a year I would be able to ride the bus, that was something I would grow out of. So, I went from our house to Hudson Elementary School, alone. I would never let my kids travel that far now.

MYLES: When you lived in the area of Byers Hill and you said you knew Mr. Byers.

BUNTON: Yes, I did.

MYLES: Did he live on a hill?

BUNTON: They were a large family in the community. And they were well known. When we moved there they had named it, but I learned they were named for the Byers. They were a very large family. They had a lot of land in that particular area.

MYLES: When you say a large family, does it mean it was a lot of kids?

BUNTON: They had a lot of children.

MYLES: How many blocks did you walk to school?

BUNTON: It was at least two miles from my house.

MYLES: Did you go with other kids?

BUNTON: There were other kids that I walked with, so I was not really alone.

MYLES: But, during that time, and it's not to imply in any way that you're an 00:04:00old woman, it means that the times that we grow up, different times dictate different kinds of things. So it was more of a community, would you say?

BUNTON: Yes, it was more of a community, and I must admit I didn't think about it. Of course, I wouldn't have had any thoughts about being afraid of something happening, like I would have that fear today. Nothing ever happened. But, I'm just thinking how different it is now. You just wouldn't feel safe with a child that young walking that far. I wouldn't.

MYLES: What do you remember in elementary school? What were the teachers like?

BUNTON: I remember I loved school. I always did. I always wanted to go to school. I had so much admiration for my teachers. Whatever they said was just the last word. I kind of remember how the teachers would cuddle you. Every child 00:05:00was almost personal with teachers and I think I sort of enjoyed that. I was from a large family and you didn't get a whole lot of personal attention, it had to go around.

MYLES: How large was your family? How many sisters and brothers?

BUNTON: I had six brothers and I have five sisters.

MYLES: Twelve children?

BUNTON: Yes.

MYLES: Where did you fit in the 12?

BUNTON: I was number four. I'm the fourth girl. All my brothers are younger. I have six brothers younger than I am, so I got a chance to be momma at a very early age.

MYLES: Did your mom work outside of the home?

BUNTON: My mom worked outside of the home. At one time she was a lunch room manager at the community school there. I don't know how she found time to do that, but she did work outside. My father worked out at the pipe shop in Tarrant City.

MYLES: So when he worked at the pipe shop and your mom worked in the school, was your family considered kind of wealthy?

BUNTON: No.

MYLES: You were considered average.

BUNTON: At that time we were average. My dad did a lot of farming.

MYLES: What kind of things did he farm?

BUNTON: All kinds of vegetables. As a matter of fact, he practically grew all of our food. We had our own hogs, our own cows, our own chickens.

MYLES: Did you help out on the farm?

BUNTON: Yes. You didn't have a choice.

MYLES: What was your job?

BUNTON: Not one job, there were many jobs. Mainly I helped a lot with the children, among other things. But, we had so many chores to do, we had to help with all of them. We had to milk the cows.

MYLES: What age were you when you did that?

BUNTON: I was 12 or 13. My dad taught us at an early age.

MYLES: Was it fun?

BUNTON: It wasn't hard. It was something else to do and, of course we made fun out of everything.

MYLES: How did you make fun out of milking cows?

BUNTON: Well, my brother, who was a year younger loved to have milk right out of the cows, so he would bring his glass to get the milk. I couldn't drink milk like that. It would have to be real cold. A lot of times, we get together and we laugh about it, it was so much fun.

MYLES: It sounds like it was a wonderful childhood.

BUNTON: It was.

MYLES: About the cows, did they have names?

BUNTON: For some reason or another I do not remember them. I know we called a cow Daisy. Cows are very strange and very clean animals.

MYLES: ·How are they strange?

BUNTON: I remember we would have to put water in this tub for the cow. Daddy would tell us how we always had to wash this tub, they are very clean. Ifthey would smell any kind of odor, they would not drink. And we must have had the cleanest cow in the world. You know, as kids, you didn't always want to wash that tub real clean, just put a little water in there and she would smell down in there and she wouldn't drink.

MYLES: So you had to go back and re-do it?

BUNTON: Yes. We would laugh about it. We thought it was funny that the cow wouldn't drink, but daddy had told us it had to be clean. And, so in the afternoon when he came home if that cow would consume an entire tub of water, he knew that the cow hadn't had water during the day. So that meant we were in trouble.

MYLES: Would you get a spanking?

BUNTON: Yes. We laugh about it as we got older. We said we wouldn't have a cow.

MYLES: You know today we choose our words carefully when you talk about spanking because we hear so much about abuse to children, but growing up at that time you got a whipping or you got a beating. Who did the spanking?

BUNTON: My dad.

MYLES: With a belt, switch or hand?

BUNTON: Well, it was so funny. He would always send us to get a switch. He would let us go get our switch ourselves. You go bring your switch to me.

MYLES: You wanted to get the smallest one?

BUNTON: Right.

MYLES: Did you have to go back and get another one?

BUNTON: Well, that depended on the mood daddy was in. But, he really taught us something.

MYLES: Now, what's the difference between a hog or a pig? Is there a difference, do you know?

BUNTON: A pig is very small.

MYLES: Did your hogs ever have little piglets?

BUNTON: Yes.

MYLES: Did you all like that? Did you play with the pigs?

BUNTON: No, we didn't play with them. As a matter of fact, we had to help feed them. Of course, later on they fed us.

MYLES: Did they have names?

BUNTON: No. We always had our own. During the winter months my dad would kill the hogs and we had an opportunity to observe the killing. Some of my brothers and sisters would kind of cry. It seemed so horrible. But, the way it was done, it was interesting to watch all the things. I kind of wish my grandkids could observe how it happen.

MYLES: How do they do it? I mean the short version.

BUNTON: He would build a fire under an iron pot and get the water scalding hot. They would take the water out of the pot and have these burlap bags handy. But, in the meantime, before putting the water on, they would always hit the hog in the head with a hammer to knock the hog out. Then they would take the scalding water and pour it over it and, then someone with knives would come and take all the hair off the hogs.

MYLES: That was very interesting.

BUNTON: It was.

MYLES: And they would go on to prepare it?

BUNTON: Yes, they would have to stab the hog and let all the blood drain. We had a smoke house where the meat was smoked.

MYLES: Now, a smoke house, when people listen and hear this today, a lot of children and even some adults don't know; what is a smokehouse.

BUNTON: Well, after they had killed the hogs and cut the hams and things into pieces, you would hang it and they would smoke it in this little house. You would have this delicious smoke taste.

MYLES: Is it like anything you've tasted today?

BUNTON: It's not near as good today. I don't think any of the meat tasted like my dad's.

MYLES: So everybody got together to help mom and daddy?

BUNTON: Actually the children didn't play a big part in that because there were other men in the community. They all aided each other. There were others who had hogs.

MYLES: So you had hogs, pigs, cows and chickens.

BUNTON: Yes.

MYLES: Would your chickens lay eggs?

BUNTON: Sure.

MYLES: And you had the eggs from the hen house?

BUNTON: Yes.

MYLES: How many roosters did you have?

BUNTON: Yes, we had roosters. I don't remember the number.

MYLES: When you look back at your childhood and you look at communities, we've had people say that there was a sense of community, that if there were others in the neighborhood that didn't have, you shared.

BUNTON: Oh, yes. There was a great sense of community. People shared with their service. They would come in and if you were doing something and you didn't have to ask, people just volunteered their service. My mother gave very freely back to the community. Everybody waited for that hog meat, and milk and butter and eggs and vegetables. They just loved my dad's vegetables. We just shared with the whole community.

MYLES: ·You made butter from the milk?

BUNTON: Of course, we had to churn the butter from the milk. We saw a chum yesterday. My husband and I were browsing through a flea market and I saw this chum. He said, "Look at this, it makes you want to churn." I said, "No."

MYLES: You had your churning days.

BUNTON: Yes. I often say I paid my dues.

MYLES: Are your parents still living?

BUNTON: No. Both parents are deceased.

MYLES: Was your family involved in church while you were growing up?

BUNTON: Yes, we were involved in church. My mother was very involved. My father went, but not as regular as my mother. We all grew up in the church.

MYLES: Do you remember what church you attended?

BUNTON: It was Mount Calvary Baptist Church. That minister is deceased.

MYLES: Did you go to Sunday School?

BUNTON: We did. We went to the little plays at Christmas and Easter time. We were involved in that. Of course, there were problems getting the boys to go. They were always not wanting to. I happened to be one of the ones who always enjoyed it, my sister and I. Of course, in later years they would go.

MYLES: How did you find about the Movement when you were growing up?

BUNTON: My parents talked a great deal about the racial problems. Working on jobs, where my dad worked. Of course, they encountered a lot of things. They would talk to us about the problems as they existed between Blacks and Whites.

MYLES: Do you remember any of the things that your parents may have said?

BUNTON: I They would talk about situations where there was not fair treatment in the workplace. They would often talk about how they would shop in stores and they would always have to wait and they would take the White person in front of you. I remember this particular incident; we were in the grocery store. One evening my father had gotten paid and my mom went to pick him up, and we stopped 00:16:00at a grocery store in the community to buy groceries. Of course, some of the smaller kids had begun to get tired. They were restless and my dad had the groceries and was placing them on the counter. And, as long as a White face came up, they went to wait on them first. By then my daddy had just really grown tired. He walked over to the man and he said I want you to check my groceries because I want to take my family home. He replied to him, "Don't you see Jesse, I'm waiting on a White man?"

MYLES: Did your dad reply at all?

BUNTON: No. He was just so angry. I had never seen my dad that angry.

MYLES: What did he say, do you remember?

BUNTON: This man had been known for keeping a gun under his counter. So when my dad said what he did, he went to reach under his counter to get his gun and my 00:17:00daddy put his hand on top of the White man's hand. He came out of his pocket with brass knuckles.

MYLES: Your dad did?

BUNTON: Yes. He said, "Now, check my family out."

MYLES: What did the man do?

BUNTON: He immediately checked our groceries. And the fun thing about this, as children we were sort of getting excited. My daddy was only like 5'2". This man was a great big tall White man and we were real happy.

MYLES: What age were you then?

BUNTON: I must have been about 7 or 8, but I remember that very well?

MYLES: Were you frightened or were you proud?

BUNTON: I was never frightened in the presence of my parents. We had security. With my dad there... no, I was never afraid when he was around.

MYLES: Do you ever remember if your dad went back to that store?

BUNTON: I don't remember him going back. I remember him telling us we didn't have to patronize people like that.

MYLES: I'm sure by the time you got home everybody talked about what daddy did?

BUNTON: Yes. He shared with us and he told us about other situations that he had encountered on the job and things like that. So; we were very much aware and knowledgeable about racial situations. And, of course when the Christian Movement started, we started actively participating and attending the meetings.

MYLES: Do you remember anything that your mother may have said that may have possibly happened to her either going to work or at work?

BUNTON: I don't recall anything particular that my mother said. She worked for a short time at The Club. She was a salad maker. Other than that, she was a lunchroom manager in the Black school, so she didn't have those kind of encounters.

MYLES: Did she every say anything about the grand parties at The Club?

BUNTON: Well, you know at that particular time you just had a place and we stayed there. She worked at night. As a matter of fact, she was the lunchroom manager during the day. She would work in the morning. And, when she left school she would go to work from 4:00 p.m. to Midnight, so it was kind of hard.

MYLES: I imagine your parents would stress the importance of education to their children.

BUNTON: Yes. My mother talked a lot about getting an education and not having to deal with a lot of situations like they had to deal with, that that would be helpful. My dad was a hard working man. I think he would have been content if everybody just got a job. His parents passed at a very young age, so he had to 00:20:00help his mom a lot. But he told us he wanted us to go to school, but my mom stressed going to school.

MYLES: How did you get involved? Did you go to the mass meetings?

BUNTON: Yes, Monday nights were sort of reserved for the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. I learned so much at those meetings. I was so inspired by Rev. Shuttlesworth. It's like he always knew the things they would print in the paper, the statements that were being made, he would tell us. He 00:21:00always had a lot of humor. He was saying fun things. And he would say, "You can expect to see that in The Birmingham News." And sure enough, that would be in there. But the way they would get out there and encourage members not to participate in any kind of violence, that we could not accomplish 9ur goal if we turned anyway violent. Now, if you felt like you had to be violent, maybe it's best that you don't attend this meeting. And they stressed that. But, that was not stated in the paper. But, if they made some little remark, or some little silly thing, that would be in the news. And, of course, they talked about jobs and the purpose. We knew the reason for this Movement. They encouraged voter registration and during the demonstrations they told us there was something 00:22:00everybody could do. There were people who were afraid to participate because of loss of jobs and things. And, of course, they even talked about if you're not going to be a participant and you're not going to do anything, you may help us by just being quiet, not talking it down. Not saying derogatory things about people who participate. These people were hard working people.

MYLES: Did your parents participate?

BUNTON: Yes, my mother did. My dad was not one in attendance, but he supported it wholeheartedly. So you can imagine with the whole family. But, of course, my mother was very much involved.

MYLES: Did she ever do any marching?

BUNTON: Yes, as a matter of fact, she did march and she went to jail for seven days. During that particular time, they would say everybody can't go to jail. If you're in the family, somebody has to run the house. There were other things 00:23:00that we had to do.

MYLES: So who took care of the family when she went to jail?

BUNTON: By that time most of them had grown up. But, then there were some smaller. I helped out a whole lot. My other sisters had married, but I was still home.

MYLES: So when she went to jail, was that during the time that she was also employed? BUNTON: I'm trying to remember. I don't think so.

MYLES: So when she went to jail and when she got out, what did she share about her experiences?

BUNTON: She told us about things that happened at night. How they would sing and how they prayed. It seemed like they had a good time. There were a lot of 00:24:00problems. There were people who had family members who were employed and were away from their jobs and some of those people lost their jobs. I don't recall my mom working at that particular time. She talked about what they would talk about at night time and how they were treated. Of course, 'the treatment wasn't that good at all. But, they were told things that they didn't need to say or they didn't do anything to antagonize the guards in the jail.

MYLES: Did your mom stress the importance of voting?

BUNTON: Yes.

MYLES: How involved did you become in registering?

BUNTON: Well, my mother and dad both stressed the importance of voting. While in college, I participated in voter registration drives. As a matter of fact, Dr. McPherson was dedicated man at that particular time. He talked to us at length 00:25:00about the importance of voting. And, he just didn't talk about it, he believed in doing something about it. He would take groups of students in various areas and we had to work that area. I remember working the area at Smithfield Projects. How we started and how many blocks I had to take care of and go knock on these doors. At that particular time, they had a long list of questions that you had to commit to memory. I remember studying those questions so hard so I can remember the answers so I could qualify to vote. I often wonder why that was. I thought that was so unnecessary.

MYLES: Do you remember any of the questions that seemed so silly?

BUNTON: I really don't. I just thought it was all so unnecessary. Why did you need to do that to register to vote?

MYLES: You said you attended college. Where did you go?

BUNTON: I attended Miles College and that's where I got involved with voter registration with Dr.

McPherson. There were student groups out there who participated in the Alabama Christian Movement. And, of course, at that time the Movement would go around various area, where the churches would allow them to meet. There were some churches that wouldn't allow them to meet for whatever reason. I guess some of them were afraid and things of that nature and I can understand that. But, we participated a lot with voter registration and he asked that we continue that and keep encouraging other people and if somebody needs your assistance in getting to the polls.

MYLES: When you look at voting and registering then and you look at it now, trying to get people to vote, what do you think?

BUNTON: I think I have mixed emotions. I find myself getting angry because I know how hard it was and now it's so simple, I say, "Why won't they go and do it?" But, they don't know about all of this and that's why we have to teach our younger children about sacrifices that have been made for people to vote so that we can encourage them to vote. To let them know that this didn't come without sacrifice. That people really had to go through something in order to vote.

MYLES: Do you think enough students today recognize or are taught enough or exposed enough to sacrifices and really know what it means for people like you, and it wasn't that long ago?

BUNTON: I think that it does not make an impact upon them because they don't know the story. I think they need to know what has happened. It's strange how you feel about something. It's so easy to take things for granted. Our children 00:28:00come up now, they just don't know anything about hard times. They don't know how difficult things really were for our foreparents.

MYLES: Do you think interviews like this would help?

BUNTON: Well, I think getting things on a silver platter has been more hurtful than helpful in many instances, depending on the people. I'm not saying that everybody has to catch it hard in order to appreciate it, I don't go with that. But sometimes we have to evaluate our situation with our children and see maybe 00:29:00there are some things we might do for one that we don't need to do for the other. So it would depend on the individuals. But, I think the more that we share these kinds of messages with them and to get them to understand us, I think it would have a great effect on them.

MYLES: What did you say to your children? Do they know about the struggles?

BUNTON: Oh, yes. They know about the struggles. I made sure they learned about the struggle. I wanted them to hear it from me. As a matter of fact, they think it's so hilarious when my brothers and sisters get together and we start telling the stories about all the work we had to do at home. We do that because when we can give them a little chore to do and it's like it's so difficult for them. I can remember I would have been so thrilled if l had a bed to myself. I would 00:30:00have thought I was in heaven. They don't realize how it was. They take all of what they have for granted.

MYLES: Just like people take voting for granted.

BUNTON: Yes, sure. I feel like we need to let them know it is really important. This is very important that you exercise that right to vote.

MYLES: You mentioned Rev. Shuttlesworth and the things that he did, and even the things that he's doing now. What do you think of Rev. Shuttlesworth?

BUNTON: I think that he is a wonderful man. Sometimes I don't think he's given the credit that he deserves. As a matter of fact, he made sacrifices beyond. When you sacrifice your life, that's all you have. And, that I know that he did. 00:31:00Actually he was very instrumental in getting all of this done here in Birmingham. He stood tall a long time ago. You would wonder, why isn't this man afraid? If there was fear in him, you could not tell it.

MYLES: When you look back at what things occurred and when you see the Civil Rights Institute today, how did you feel?

BUNTON: Well, having been familiar with so much of this it brought back a lot of memories. I never would have believed that this would have been established for the world to see. Nobody could have made me believe that this would come into play the way it has. I just. think this place is very unique. You can visit 00:32:00other places and none of them can touch this place. I couldn't wait to bring my class here. I really couldn't. I wanted my class to come here, because when I first came up with the idea of having the field trip and bringing the children here and taking them over to our church, I had a lot of interest from the parents. Then the word started getting around and the numbers started dwindling. That was an experience. Even the White parents who had been so supportive changed their minds.

MYLES: What school was this?

BUNTON: This was a Jefferson County School. And after this experience, these parents said to me that they could feel something. They were so touched and 00:33:00moved by this experienced until (Inaudible).

MYLES: What do you say to people who live right here in Birmingham who have not visited the Institute? What would you say to get them to visit?

BUNTON: Well, it's really their loss. They have really missed a lot by not visiting this Institute. But, I try to encourage people to come. After you get them to come, people would say they don't want to relive that. They say, "I've heard what it was like and I have a difficult time with it." I say, "But it makes you appreciate so much more when you come in and see. It gives you an appreciation for all of the things that we have." We would go attend meetings over in Bessemer, Powderly and from here to Timbuctu and people would say to my husband and 'i, "Y'all going to go way out there? To that mess?" Black people 00:34:00would say this. Now, when it's all coming together and, then when things started happening, those voices got softer. And, then they didn't want to acknowledge that they were not a part of "that mess" at that time.

MYLES: Is there something that I didn't ask you that you would like to share with us before we close?

BUNTON: I think you did a very good job of asking questions. But, this Institute, I just wish the entire world could see this Institute, I really do.

MYLES: We certainly thank you for sharing with us today.

BUNTON: Thank you.