Jessie Shepherd Interviewed on March 16, 1995

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Jessie Shepherd for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project by Dr. Horace Huntley at Miles College. Today is March 16, 1995.

Ms. Shepherd, thank you for coming and taking time out of your schedule today to 00:01:00sit and talk with us about Birmingham and the Civil Rights Movement.

SHEPHERD: You're welcome. I'm glad to be here.

HUNTLEY: I just want to start by just asking some basic foundation questions about your parents. Where are your parents from? What part of the state? Were they born here in Birmingham?

SHEPHERD: No. My mother was born in Sumter County and my father was born in Macon County. But later on in life they moved to Birmingham, Alabama.

HUNTLEY: Were you born in Birmingham?

SHEPHERD: Yes, I was.

HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have?

SHEPHERD: It was nine of us. Three boys and six girls.

HUNTLEY: How many of those were older and how many were younger than you?

SHEPHERD: I have two younger sisters and one younger brother, and the rest are older than I am.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about your parents' education. How much education did both of them have?

SHEPHERD: Well, not very much. My mother went to the fifth grade because she mostly said they had to work in the field at that particular time. And, my father, I think she said he went to about the third or fourth grade.

HUNTLEY: Yes, in the black belt counties that was probably about the norm for Black people during those times.

SHEPHERD: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What about occupations? What kind of work did your mother and your father do?

SHEPHERD: Well, my mother always did domestic work and my father, he did laboring work and he was a welder at the surrounding plants here in Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: What about your education? Where did you go to elementary and high school and on from there?

SHEPHERD: I went to Hudson Elementary school and after about the third or fourth grade they built Calloway Elementary school and I graduated from that school. 00:03:00Afterwards I went to Carver High School in North Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: Who was the principal when you were there?

SHEPHERD: Mr. Lowe.

HUNTLEY: Mr. J. L. Lowe. What community was that?

SHEPHERD: North Birmingham, Collegeville.

HUNTLEY: How would you describe the community that you lived in when you were in high school? For example, the racial make-up, the occupations of people there, the recreation, how would you describe it?

SHEPHERD: Well, lower to middle class. And, as far as the racial make-up, we didn't have any, unless it was the White man at the corner store, everybody was predominantly Black.

HUNTLEY: It was an all-Black community?

SHEPHERD: Right.

HUNTLEY: Were there any areas near you where White people actually lived or did they live further back in Norwood?

SHEPHERD: Norwood and the better section of North Birmingham was the White people area at that particular time.

HUNTLEY: So, there were no White families living, say on the next street from you?

SHEPHERD: No. No. We lived close around to U.S. Pipe, the plants with all the smoke and the soot and stuff, so they were a little further away from all of that.

HUNTLEY: Yes. What kind of recreation did you have in your community?

SHEPHERD: Not any at all. We played in the yard, hopscotch. We did our lesson. We really didn't have any place to go. Church was a very important part of our lives. We had things that we would do at church like choir rehearsal, play games or they would have Easter celebration for the kids. But other than that, we played with each other.

HUNTLEY: So, most of your recreational activities then were either in the church or at school?

SHEPHERD: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What about parks?

SHEPHERD: Parks?

HUNTLEY: Did you have any parks?

SHEPHERD: Parks were almost non-existent. We had like Macklin Park that was in Collegeville. We did have that one particular park that was available to us. 00:05:00And, I remember as a little girl, they had a park down by the city jail, but we didn't have transportation. There wasn't a car in our family.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about the relationship, if you remember, what was the relationship between your community and the Birmingham Police Department?

SHEPHERD: Well, the police department wasn't very active in our community. You would see the cars go by and if there was some young men on the corner they may slow down and talk with them and find out what they were up to. But, as far as my relationship with them, I didn't really have any.

HUNTLEY: There was really no ongoing relationship with the community? Did you look at the police as being there in the community to protect and serve that community?

SHEPHERD: In a way I did and in a way I looked at it as a way of keeping us in line.

HUNTLEY: The Civil Rights Movement of course, when we talk about civil rights in Birmingham, we normally start with the Alabama Christian Movement of Human Rights in 1956 with the development of the various meeting formats that they had at the various churches. I know at that time you were a very young child so you would have probably known nothing about that. But when did you get involved in the movement itself?

SHEPHERD: I was 15 and I was still in high school and that's when I got involved, when it came to my school.

HUNTLEY: At Carver?

SHEPHERD: Carver High School.

HUNTLEY: And how did that happen that you would get involved at that point? What took place to get you involved? Had you been to any mass meetings before you got involved?

SHEPHERD: No. I had not. The only experience I had was the day that they came to my school and there were different leaders that were talking, and they were telling us what they had planned to do for us, marching and what have you. And, we listened to the speakers and just from listening to them, I decided that I would march.

HUNTLEY: Were they in an assembly in the school?

SHEPHERD: No. Definitely not. They were across the street from the school grounds because they weren't allowed on the premises. And, we were told not to go off the premises.

HUNTLEY: So how did you get the opportunity to hear them speak if you were not allowed to go off the premises?

SHEPHERD: Because they were across the street from the school and we went to the edge of the school ground and we listened. And, after their delivery, well, it motivated me to just go with them.

HUNTLEY: How many kids did it motivate to participate at that point?

SHEPHERD: It was quite a few. I don't remember exactly how many but it was quite a few.

HUNTLEY: Now, this is in May of 1963 during the demonstrations, right?

SHEPHERD: Right.

HUNTLEY: At that point, the Movement was really sort of at a lull because it didn't have a lot of people that were staunchly involved. You had a lot of people that were involved, but many of those were older people and they were fearful of their jobs and their homes. So, the idea was to get children involved. What did your parents say about that?

SHEPHERD: Well, like you say it was something that was already talked about so my parents were aware that they were going to try and recruit the younger children to march and they had told me beforehand not to get involved. And, I did anyway.

HUNTLEY: Well, was that a difficult decision for you to make, to go against what 00:09:00your parents were saying to you?

SHEPHERD: It was, because usually I obeyed them. But like I said, after listening to the speeches that the leaders were making and after soul searching and thinking about my experiences and the experiences of my parents and other people in the neighborhood, I just decided that now it's time for a change and I wanted to be involved in it.

HUNTLEY: What did they say to encourage you to get involved?

SHEPHERD: Well, they were telling us about the things that had been going on all along. You weren't allowed to sit here, you weren't allowed to eat here, we need better jobs, we need to be treated better, and now is the time to do it. And, things like that. And all of the things that they were talking about I knew to be for a fact because I had seen some of these things happening and I've seen people that are not making enough money, not being able to go here. Take for instance, my mother and my grandmother, they always did domestic work and some 00:10:00of the same people that they work for may have had the cafeteria and they could feed the other people, but when they would get tired, they could not go up front and sit down and eat a sandwich. They had to stand up in the back and eat. And, if they wanted water, go out back and get some water. You know, all those things to me were oppressive to Black people and I was old enough to know about them.

HUNTLEY: So, you thought it was time for a change?

SHEPHERD: I did.

HUNTLEY: Well, why didn't you say "Well, let someone else do that, I would stay in school and get my education", rather than being out on the front line? Why didn't you take that position?

SHEPHERD: Well, at the time I'll admit I was afraid. I was very scared. But, I was also thinking about if everybody said that, they wouldn't have enough people to follow them. So, I was just willing to take the consequences.

HUNTLEY: What did your teachers say before you got involved? Did they instruct you not to get involved or to get involved? Or, were they simply neutral?

SHEPHERD: No. We had assembly in school, and, like my parents, they knew what was going on also, so they warned us beforehand not to become involved because if we did we would be expelled.

HUNTLEY: So, they did not encourage you to get involved?

SHEPHERD: No. They did not.

HUNTLEY: In fact, they suggested that you not get involved so that you would not be expelled from school?

SHEPHERD: Right.

HUNTLEY: Were there any teachers that encouraged you?

SHEPHERD: No.

HUNTLEY: So, most were in fact looking out for you in the sense that they didn't want you to get expelled from school?

SHEPHERD: Exactly. And then I think that they probably thought that if we left off the school and they didn't try to tell us their version of what they thought we should do, that they may be held liable for us leaving the premises if something happened to us and we got hurt or whatever.

HUNTLEY: I'm going to skip a part of this and return to that, but I want to ask you what was the reception when you returned to school? I know that you spent 00:12:00time in jail, but what were the reactions of the other children in school and your teachers when you returned to school?

SHEPHERD: Well, I think that we were treated a little bit differently. Kind of like, not, in a way where they would kind of put us down from going to jail, but like they were somewhat proud that we had participated in this. No one treated me badly.

HUNTLEY: So, you were somewhat of a hero, a shero. Let me ask you the day that you were encouraged by those individuals from the Alabama Christian Movement and SCLC you then left school and you went to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. Can you describe what happened at Sixteenth Street inside?

SHEPHERD: At Sixteenth Street on the inside we had some of the same leaders that 00:13:00were at my school, also some other ones. And, they would talk, and they would tell us what to expect. They would tell us the route that we were going to take in the march and what to expect when the police and just stay together. We sung songs. As a matter of fact, some of the songs that we sung we sung those songs because a lot of people didn't know the songs or whatever, so we sung those for a while. And, when we got out on the street, we knew the songs.

HUNTLEY: And you eventually then would leave the church in mass, I assume, because there are some that say that a hundred would leave at a time and march down the steps at Sixteenth Street, sort of describe that to me. The leaving of Sixteenth Street and coming onto the street to participate in the march.

SHEPHERD: Well, it was like, to me it was like everybody trying to get in the lunchroom at one time. It was just mass students. Grown-ups too, but it was just a crowd. And, we all, like you say, left the church and it was just, as far as you could see, all the way across the road and to the front and to the back, it was just a lot of people, mostly students.

HUNTLEY: What did you see when you first came out of the church?

SHEPHERD: When I came out of the church to my recollection it was like policemen. You know policemen were near the church also, and spectators, you know, people that were involved and people were just there to be curious to see what was going to happen. The news people were there.

HUNTLEY: Were there any firemen?

SHEPHERD: Yes, of course, there were firemen there, because they had the hose that put the water on us, dogs.

HUNTLEY: Were there police dogs there?

SHEPHERD: Yes. There were police dogs.

HUNTLEY: How far from the church did you get before the water was turned on you or the dogs, or did that happen?

SHEPHERD: Yes, it did happen to me. But, I think it was like maybe within blocks because we went to the heart of downtown and it was a little distance from the church.

HUNTLEY: Was it in the park, Kelly Ingram Park or after you passed through the park?

SHEPHERD: No. It was on the regular street. It wasn't in the park.

HUNTLEY: So, then you made it maybe a block?

SHEPHERD: Maybe a block or two or what have you.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember orders being given?

SHEPHERD: Yes. To go back and not to go into certain stores and in certain parts of the street. As I remember they was all standing, they were really going to block us from making an entrance to certain streets. And, after we did not stop, 00:16:00that's when they turned the hose on and I remember rolling around on the ground because the water was so strong and when I got up, I was glad the water was turned off.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the water? Was it just wet or did it sting?

SHEPHERD: Wet and strong. The water pressure was so strong until it would actually roll you around on the pavement. It was just that strong. They didn't care.

HUNTLEY: Then were you arrested?

SHEPHERD: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What happened? How did that arrest take place?

SHEPHERD: Well, the policemen came in what we would call the paddy wagons and they loaded us up, as many as they could in those wagons. And we were taken to juvenile court and processed, name and all of that. Then we were locked up and 00:17:00later on, during the same day, when they got as many, I guess as they wanted to, we were all taken to the Birmingham fairgrounds and that's where I stayed for four days.

HUNTLEY: How were you taken from the city to the fairgrounds?

SHEPHERD: In the paddy wagons, also.

HUNTLEY: And you say you remained at the fairgrounds for four days?

SHEPHERD: Four days.

HUNTLEY: Sort of describe to me what you remember about that period.

SHEPHERD: Well, I remember being very scared and we all cried a lot because we wanted to go home. I did. We wanted to go home. And we were told that we could not go home, that we would have to stay there until the Movement got us out or got the funds to get us out or whatever. And the first day wasn't too bad, but as the days progressed, it got worse and worse because I didn't like the food and we played games. I knew at that point that my mother was worried about me. I 00:18:00really started thinking about that a lot. So, we mostly like played games, cried, laid around. There wasn't anything really to do but hope that they would soon get us out.

HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate?

SHEPHERD: No.

HUNTLEY: You were the only one that participated?

SHEPHERD: I was the only one.

HUNTLEY: What did they feel about your participation?

SHEPHERD: Later on, we talked about it and they were glad that I did it. But, they was all crying. My mother told me that my grandmother would cry every day. She would cry and my sisters and brothers they would cry because they were afraid of what they were going to do to me.

HUNTLEY: You were suspended from school?

SHEPHERD: Yes. For four days when I was in jail. When I got out of school, my mother had to take me back to school.

HUNTLEY: She took you back to school, were there any other kinds of repercussions as a result of your being involved?

SHEPHERD: No.

HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of at the time?

SHEPHERD: We went to Christian Valley in north Birmingham and sometimes we would go to Wilson Chapel Church because mostly my uncle had a church and we would have to go to his church a lot. So, a lot of times I visited those other churches because my friends went there.

HUNTLEY: Were either of those churches involved in the Movement? Or the pastor of those churches involved in the Movement that you know of and can remember?

SHEPHERD: I don't think so.

HUNTLEY: What do you think were the benefits of you being involved in the Movement? What were the benefits to your family and the community as a result of 00:20:00that involvement?

SHEPHERD: Well, I think there were a lot of benefits. Things changed in the community as well as downtown. For one thing it kind of motivated people to be their own person. Not necessarily be negative to Whites after then, but to stand up for themselves and say this is not right, or I feel that there's two sides to everything. And I think that later on it made us be able to have better jobs, better schools and pursue a lot of jobs that normally we would not have done because of that. Also, we were able to spend our money wherever we wanted to spend our money and be able to be treated like we were as good as anybody else. And I really felt like it made a big impact when I could still go to north Birmingham and no longer had to see the sign that "colored" in back and "white" 00:21:00folk only those kinds of things.

HUNTLEY: So, would you suggest that the Movement was successful?

SHEPHERD: I think so.

HUNTLEY: And that its success is based upon the changes that you see has taken place over time?

SHEPHERD: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after you finished high school? I see you've gone to Lawson State and a number of other places and you are now a dietician?

SHEPHERD: A clinical diet technician in nutrition.

HUNTLEY: So, do you think that the Movement had an impact upon what you would eventually do as a career?

SHEPHERD: Well, I think that it had an impact on me going on. When I left school in the 11th grade, I went to Jeff State so I could get my GED. So, I think it made me continue my education, not just say, "Well, I'm finished." And, so I went on to Jeff State and got the GED and then after that I decided that I would 00:22:00get into nutrition, so I went to Lawson and after Lawson to the Linkage Program at UAB.

HUNTLEY: Lawson has one of the best programs in the state in that regard, that many people are not that much aware of. Are there any other incidents that we have not talked about that come to mind that would relate to your involvement with the Movement?

SHEPHERD: Oh yes, definitely so. I remember, like I said, we always lived around the northern side, Norwood, north Birmingham and at some point in the early 70s I moved to Kingston. And during the early part of the 70s when Benita Carter was killed I lived in that area and it kind of like brought it all back to me about the marching during that time because the policemen were down in the 00:23:00neighborhood again. They were like "get in the house." "Get off the streets." You know, "turn your lights out." And, we had no choice. We had to do this. Just go in the house and stay. And, to me, it kind of reflected all back to me that this similar to what happened then.

HUNTLEY: Where do you think we are today in regards to the Movement?

SHEPHERD: I think they've done wonderful things and I think they have come a long ways as far as equality and stuff like that and as far as people's civil rights and everything. I think that now they have a limit. You cannot mistreat people because of their race or color. Everybody is equal. And if there is not an equal opportunity, now we have the access and places to go. We have the courts. Even on your job now, these things that took place at that particular 00:24:00time, they may be somewhat prejudiced, but if you feel that you're being mistreated or things are not equally done, then you do have a voice now. Whereas, back then, you did not. This was just the way it was.

HUNTLEY: If there was a call now for a demonstration or a march for some issue that may come to fore, would you participate today?

SHEPHERD: Yes, I would. I have no regrets.

HUNTLEY: If you had children of the age that you were during the time that you took part and had to go against the same kind of entities such as the police or whatever, that was at that particular time, would you allow your children to be involved?

SHEPHERD: I would let them make up their own mind, but I would not say don't do it. I feel like that if they felt like they wanted to make a difference, it 00:25:00would be left up to them and I would support them.

HUNTLEY: So, you believe that there is a need for a certain amount of activism even today in relationship to the struggle?

SHEPHERD: Yes. We should never forget what we went through. Even though we have come a long way, there is always reason that things could change and go back if we get dormant and just stand still. So like today when they sing songs during Martin Luther King's birthday and remembering his death and all, like we sing songs like "We shall overcome," and things like that, I'm usually crying. A lot of people just sing those songs but to me they have meaning. They really do. And that's one of the reasons why, after today I will go. That's one of the reasons I have not visited the Institute because I always felt like it would be real painful to.

HUNTLEY: You have not visited the Institute?

SHEPHERD: I have not been there yet, in the two years. And sometimes I say I'm going.

HUNTLEY: Why have you thought that you should not visit at this point?

SHEPHERD: Well, I don't feel that I shouldn't. I feel that I should go, but it's just that every time I think about going and things that I may see, it kind of depresses me.

HUNTLEY: It's too emotional for you at this point?

SHEPHERD: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Well, we hope that you will come and if you do, I'm sure you will see a lot that will remind you of those days, but I think it would be part of that healing process.

SHEPHERD: I think so.

HUNTLEY: So, you have an open invitation.

SHEPHERD: Okay.

HUNTLEY: So please come.

SHEPHERD: I'm going to come now.

HUNTLEY: All right. I want to thank you for the time that we've spent today because you've been very helpful in helping us to piece together this story of Birmingham. As I said, many people have many stories to tell and I'm sure you probably have a few more that you'll think of later on.

SHEPHERD: Right.

HUNTLEY: But, maybe we'll do this again sometime.

SHEPHERD: I'll be glad to.

HUNTLEY: Thank you very much for coming out.

SHEPHERD: You're welcome.