Rev. John Rutland

HANSON: Rev. Rutland, you, described the time leading up to some of the racial confrontation in the City of Birmingham as a lonely time prior to that. A time when you had to say things that was on your conscious. Why did you call it a lonely time?

RUTLAND: Well, of course, when people realized that I was taking the stand that I was taking, even my Bishop and the other leaders of the conference who were afraid, I don't know if you were living in those days, but it was a very difficult thing to stand up for anything that would bring Black and White 00:01:00together, because of the politics and the social ideas of the people in Birmingham were so much opposed to that. And, anyone who would stand and say we need to bring Blacks and Whites together on an equal basis, were in trouble. So, when I would do things and the Bishop would call me in and say, "You don't need to do those things, you need to calm down, you're making your people angry." Of course, instead of having a bunch of friends around me then, I had people who, at best, were distant and did not give me their comfort. Of course, I had a good wife that stayed with me and comforted me. And, there were always a few, a few lay people and very few ministers.

HANSON: Why do you think you were able to do that? I mean what was it that compelled you to do this when other ministers didn't?

RUTLAND: My mother. I was brought up to believe that people were people. And, that all people were God's children. And, that every person was just as worthy as every other person. And, when I saw, during my early ministry in places in Pickens County and even in Walker County in some of my smaller churches, when I saw how people were treating Black people and yet, calling themselves, and in every other area of their lives they probably were fine Christian people, well it just kind of stirred something within me and I felt that somebody had to say something and I felt like I was that one to say it.

HANSON: Why were you not told to be quiet or else leave the church? Robert Hughes, for example, was. I mean, had to leave the church.

RUTLAND: Well, of course, that's a matter of opinion whether Bob had to leave or not.

You can face these things and say it's just too tough and I'm going to leave, the Bishop saying you got to do this and you got to do that and you don't want to do it, so you leave. I didn't want to leave. And when the Bishop called me in and asked me to be quiet and he said, "You don't need to be saying these things." One of the funniest things I ever remember is that Bishop Hodge called me in one time and he had some bulletins that I had printed where I had said some pretty straight forward, truthful things about race relations.

And, he looked at those bulletins and he said, "John, for Goodness sake, say what you want to from the pulpit, 'cause you can deny that or say they misunderstood it. But quit putting these things in your bulletin because they're there and you can't change them after they're there." And then he said, "Why do you do this anyhow?" And I said, "That isn't the question, Bishop. The question 00:04:00is, why don't you do this? This is what our church says, this is what the New Testament says and we need a leader who'll say that, Bishop. You're the one who needs to be saying what I'm saying."

HANSON: And his response was?

RUTLAND: Well, he said, "You one day, this makes a Methodist preacher feel real good." He says, "You know John, you would like to leave Woodlawn, which I don't know where he got that idea. But, you would like to leave Woodlawn and the people would like for you to leave, but where on earth could I find a church that would take you." No , that makes you feel good.

HANSON: One of the most quoted things by everybody that you said one day was in, I believe in a sermon, when you said, "If Jesus were to come back today, he would not be welcomed in the Christian church, he would be more welcomed as a Jew in the temple." Elaborate on that.

RUTLAND: Well, I just said, you know, preaching in a sermon, I used the fact 00:05:00that if Jesus were to come, he would not come in a big Cadillac. He would not come in a big sports car. He'd probably come on a donkey. And if he tried to get in this church, you wouldn't let him in. Especially you wouldn't let him in if you pushed back his beard and saw that the skin under it was Black. And, I said, the Jewish church would receive him but we wouldn't receive him.

HANSON: What was the response of the congregation?

RUTLAND: Oh, it was terrible.

HANSON: What did they do?

RUTLAND: Well, they didn't do much except call me. You know, I answered my phones so many times, this was while I was at Woodlawn, that people called me a son of a bitch. I heard that so much until I really thought my name was son of a bitch.

HANSON: How did you respond to that? Was your life ever threatened?

RUTLAND: Oh, yes. But I never took it seriously. When they burned the cross, they promised to come back and bomb my house and all that kind of stuff. Do you 00:06:00want a story about that?

HANSON: I do, indeed.

RUTLAND: You know, Bob Lindberg was also a member of our church.

HANSON: The police chief at that time?

RUTLAND: Yes. And Mr. Conner would be elected one time and Mr. Lindberg, the next. Both of them were in our church. Well, we got so many threats one day, until we just thought this might be for real. They're going to bomb our house tonight. We put the children in the back room and Mary and I went out and sat on the front porch. And, really, behind the hedges kind of. And, we sang How Firm a Foundation. We sang to each other and we prayed and we waited. And, in a few minutes, a car came by. We lived on a corner, and it came by and went slowly 00:07:00around that corner. And looking back on it, if we had had any judgment, we would have known, that if the people in that car was going to do anything to us, that they would have done it.

They wouldn't have driven around two or three times. But on about the third time they came around real slowly. Mary said she had to go in the house for a moment and she went and called Bob Lindberg. It must have been one or two o'clock in the morning. One o'clock anyhow. And, she talked to him and said, "Mr. Lindberg, we're scared. There's a car going around." And he said, "ls it a,..." and described the car and Mary said, "Yes, I think that's right." He said, "Well, does it have a '54 tag on it?" She said, "Yes, I think it does as a matter of fact." That's Pickens County and that's where we served one time. He said, "Well, you go to bed and forget it, he said, that's my man." He said, "I have people guarding your house 24 hours a day, didn't you know that?"

HANSON: Did you have the same kind of protection when Bull Conner was police chief?

RUTLAND: No. No.

HANSON: Why not?

RUTLAND: I don't know. He just didn't think I was in danger. And, that didn't give me a lot of comfort, as a matter of fact it made me feel a little worse, because I said, "If they think it's that dangerous, there must be something to it." I don't believe anybody ever intended to bomb our house, I really don't. But they told us that and you could never be sure, you know.

HANSON: Because at the time the fear was so over pervasive, all around if you dare stand up at any time. Let's look a little bit at what happened in 1961, because that turned the tide. By this time, Lindberg is out. Bull Conner is in. He is coming to your church every Sunday and where was he that famous Mother's Day when all of the buses...

RUTLAND: He called me early that morning and he said, "Preacher, do you know what time that these people are coming in?" And, I said, "Mr. Conner, if I knew, I wouldn't tell you." And I was honest. I did not know what time. He thought I was connected with them, which I was not. Not before anyhow. After some of them 00:09:00got beat up and so forth, I tried to minister to them, but at that time, I was not in the know. I was not one of the leaders that brought them in. So, I didn't know. When I said, "Mr. Conner I don't know when they're coming, but if I did, I wouldn't tell you." But, I said, "Listen, I want to see you just for a few minutes some time." And he said, "All right." And, I went down to see him. This is on Sunday, if you remember.

HANSON: You went down to the police station?

RUTLAND: Yes. And I begged him. I said, "Mr. Conner I know what you're going to do.

You say you're going to protect them. I know better than that. You know better than that. too." And I begged him, "Please to give protection and not what he gave." I didn't get anywhere.

HANSON: Was there not a dichotomy here between Bull Conner coming to church every Sunday and yet not listening to you, his pastor, not opening his heart in any way or shape. Was that frustration to you?

RUTLAND: He didn't bother me as much as it did him, I guess. My favorite story 00:10:00about him and my wife would certainly want me to tell this story because it's her favorite story. One Sunday morning I went down and Mr. Conner and two other people were standing just like that in front of my church. And, I walked up, I said, I never call him Mr. Conner, I always called him Bull. But on this day I said, "Mr. Conner, what are you doing here?" And I'm going to use a word I don't ever use. He said, "I'm not going to let any niggers come in my church." I said, "Oh, Mr. Conner, you got it all mixed up. This is not your church.

This church belongs to the North Alabama Conference of the United Methodist Church and I am the trustee who is in charge of this church and I will decide who goes into the church, not you. That's my decision. Now, I'm going around here and call Mel Bailey and I'm going to come back here in five minutes and if you're still standing here, Mr. Bailey is going to come out here and I'll swear 00:11:00out a warrant for you, Mr. Conner." Remember he was police commissioner. I said, "I'll swear out a warrant for you and have you arrested for trespassing." So, when I turned the corner, he said, "Come on, fellows, that son of a bitch will do what he says."

HANSON: But, he didn't come into the church to pray? He didn't come into the church to take part in the service?

RUTLAND: Oh, he came to worship services all the time. Once a month or so he'd jump up and say I'm not going to listen to anything like that and walk out.

HANSON: You mean he would disrupt the service?

RUTLAND: Oh, yes. Well, he was just running for office, that's all he was doing. Bull Conner was not vicious with the White people, at least. He was not vicious with me. He gave us a good Christmas present every year.

HANSON: What did he give you?

RUTLAND: Well, one time he gave me a great big box of cookies and I told Mary I was afraid to eat them.

HANSON: You said you ministered to the people on the bus that came down?

RUTLAND: Yes.

HANSON: There were many, many Christian activists that came into Alabama on that 00:12:00famous Mother's Day and they were brutally, brutally treated. When you say that, did that sort of act as a change in your life in any way, shape or form?

RUTLAND: I doubt it because I was already under the gun so much. You know when you've had a cross burned in your yard and you get threats like we'd been getting, you know. Nobody every hit me. And, when you have tried to work with the people to bring about an end to the boycott that they were having and all that stuff. I had been so involved with that until I have to admit, I was surprised. I didn't think Mr. Conner would, and I doubt if he meant for it to turn out as bad as it did. I think it's just like letting a snowball start down a hill and just picking up people who were involved, just getting worse than he thought they would.

HANSON: You really believe that?

RUTLAND: Yes, I do.

HANSON: Even though he took a very arrogant stand afterwards?

RUTLAND: Well, you know what he was doing was running for office. And we got to remember that. And I don't know how much better we are today. I think we're some better. But the community today, is still very, yery determined to keep things as they are. Status quo people. And, if you're going to run for an office, you got to pretend, at least, that that's what you are.

HANSON: And you're saying it's all politics?

RUTLAND: I think with Bull Conner it was, yes.

HANSON: And you are saying today this is true? You still see racism here we're talking now in '95?

RUTLAND: Sure. Sure. I think it is. That's the reason, Republicans got elected. It's because the Republican Party stands, whether it's right or wrong, in the minds of so many people, it stands for White supremacy.

HANSON: And you think that's why it's taken over. In other words, nothing has changed in Alabama?

RUTLAND: Well, I think a lot of things have changed. I think some of the leaders 00:14:00in our offices in Birmingham and throughout the state, we have some people who are not like that. But I think if you're going to run for office in Jefferson County, particularly, if you want to be elected, you better take a stand that we're going to keep Blacks over there and Whites over here.

HANSON: What can we do, do you think, in your view now as you look back to possibly change this? That's a difficult question.

RUTLAND: Every individual must do what every individual can do.

HANSON: And not be afraid to speak up?

RUTLAND: Yes. Every other week I meet with a group of Black people over across town, 10th Avenue and 30th Street. It was, we've moved down to 41st Street now. And I may just move in a home over there with people, every one of them are fine people. Oh, they were, many of them when we started this little group were very 00:15:00much involved with drugs and alcohol. But many of them, most of them now have come to know a better way of life. And, I do that.

That's about 30 people maybe that I'm trying to touch. But, I can't touch 3,000 people and I can't touch...Let's go back to that time leading up to 1961 and the actions that followed thereafter. What did this do to your children growing up in an environment like that? They saw the cross being burned. Was the cross burned at your house or the church, by the way?

RUTLAND: House. We were out of town. They didn't see it being burned. Most people who burn crosses don't do it when people are home. Well, my son is a 00:16:00minister of a upward Methodist church in Huntsville. And he's as strong for civil rights as I am. My daughter is a teacher in Hazel Green School and a leader in the church in Hazel Green which is out from Huntsville. And, if anything she's stronger than my son or me. So, evidently it didn't drive them the wrong way.

HANSON: So what do you see happened? There came a time of almost peace in Birmingham, if you could say that. After 1963, going up to '66, up to '69, there was kind of a movement by people speaking out, coming out saying maybe we should have better race relations. Now, you're saying it has turned back. You're saying the clock is turned back.

RUTLAND: No. I didn't say that. Because I'm not involved, you need to ask David Vann that question or Chuck Morgan or some of the people who are still involved 00:17:00in the Civil Rights Movement. I have, not because I don't want to be involved, but just because of my age and because of other opportunities. Then, I've been out of Birmingham, too. But I would say, as far as I know, there are no church organizations, especially no ministers organizations that are working for better relationships.

Now there may be some organizations I don't know about, but the ones I know, there was a time when we had Greater Birmingham ministers meeting and we'd go in there and have all kinds of arguments and discuss this thing, get mad at each other and then pray, and get good humor and go home and I believe that had something to do with the way that the things in Birmingham came. But don't give us preachers any credit, much for what happened. You give that to David Vann and Arthur Shores, do you remember him?

HANSON: I do, indeed.

RUTLAND: Arthur Shores and people of that sort who were lay people who were really trying to do something where it was hard to get something done. You see, we were always hiding behind the church. Nobody is going to come through the church and get you, you know. I know that Bob Hughes really got into difficulty because he refused to give the powers that were, he refused to· glve a copy of the names of the people who were in that organization.

HANSON: The Alabama Council on Human Relations?

RUTLAND: Yes. And Bob was real strong on that. And, I admire him for it when he was in jail out at Bessemer. I called our Bishop and I said, "You got a preacher in jail, Bishop, let's go see him." And the Bishop said, "I'm real busy, how about you going." And "No. You call the district superintendent." I called the district superintendent and I said, "Listen, I'm going out to see Bob, you want to go with me?" "No, no." He said, "I've got something else to do." So, Frank 00:19:00Dawson who was our youth director and I went out to see Bob Hughes. I'm trying to think of the DA out there at Bessemer at that time. Sullens, I believe.

Anyhow we went by to see him and he took us out there. But first, they wouldn't let us see him. We went to go see him and they took us by to see him and we were instrumental I hope in getting Bob out of jail that day. But Bob Hughes was a brave man. And he stood for what he thought was right. Now, I don't think that kind of thing would happen today.

HANSON: (inaudible) Methodist minister or a minister being put in jail?

RUTLAND: No. I can't believe that.

HANSON: But, you instead see a climate of racism, you're saying?

RUTLAND: Yes. I guess. It isn't the vicious racism. I mean by that it isn't the physical, we're going to hit somebody on the head kind. But it's kind of a 00:20:00subtle sort of thing. When a person comes to our church, for instance, when a Black person comes to our church, nobody gets up and says, "Hey you can't come in here", and like that. But they freeze them out. They just, I don't mean just my particular church, but this is what I think is happening in all White churches in town.

HANSON: Let's go back again to your upbringing if we can, pastor. I think that I would like to find out. You said it was your mother primarily that did this. What about your father? You grew up in a segregated environment.

RUTLAND: My father died when I was nine years old. We were in the worse segregated county, I guess, in Alabama, the free state of Winston. I was in Haleyville, Alabama.

HANSON: You say that was more segregated than other places?

RUTLAND: Well, we just didn't have any Black people there at all.

HANSON: So you didn't have to worry about it?

RUTLAND: That's right. We had about two Black families and I was friends with both of them because my mother taught me that when somebody is being put down, you get on their side, and that's the way I was taught.

HANSON: So, you went to school where, to college?

RUTLAND: I went to Birmingham Southern.

HANSON: But you must have stood alone there when you were out there.

RUTLAND: There were no Black people in Birmingham Southern.

HANSON: There were no Black people but you certainly had to have opinions about race relations in Birmingham. Did you speak out as a student?

RUTLAND: Well, I can't remember if we were doing a lot of speaking out on that or not. I'm sure that if there came a time that somebody needed to say something about it, I would have, because I was at that time just as strong for the integration of races as I am today.

HANSON: What about when you got your first church? Where was your first church?

RUTLAND: Well, I had a little mining camp churches when I was in college. And, of course, in those days, United Mine Workers was a strong, strong organization of which I was a part.

HANSON: You were a member of the United Mine Workers?

RUTLAND: Oh, sure. No. I wasn't a member, I was an auxiliary member.

HANSON: In other words, you were a very strong union man?

RUTLAND: Yes. Right. And, of course, I think the United Mine Workers did as much as anybody to bring Black and White together. Because when they got a raise for the White folk, they got a raise for the Black folk. When they got better living condition for the White folk, they got it for the Black folk. Unfortunately, I don't know how this happened, either. The labor unions got big bosses, you know. Not John L. Lewis, boy, he's great. And so was some other people, Walter Reuther and people like. But, beneath them, they got some leaders who were just hungry 00:23:00for money. And they just grabbed all the money they could get and, in my opinion, and the labor union lost in the eyes of the people, kind of lost of credence there. But, and I don't think the labor unions are doing much today for race relations. They may be, but I don't know.

HANSON: But this was also a time with a lot of racial hate. I mean you have Crack Hanna. You have things like this happening in the steel mills, coming in, strike breaking. Where did you stand on that and did you preach against that?

RUTLAND: Sure. I was...

HANSON: Well, you say this very matter of factly. There were a lot of polite churches where pastors did not speak out, Rev. Rutland.

RUTLAND: Well, of course I just happened not to be one of them. No. I don't count myself as being a great hero that stood out here as a one man fighting against the whole world. And I never one time, I guess, thought hey, I'm going 00:24:00to go down here and say something brave. I never got in trouble in my life intentionally. I would just do what I thought was right. And, when I did that thing, I didn't sit back and say this is going to get me in trouble. It's just like water running down hill. When something happens, you just do what's right and, then you find out, hey you're in a bunch of trouble. They had a little riot out at Woodlawn High school when I was there. Well, I didn't call and ask Mary what I should do. I didn't even go to the altar and pray and say God, what do you want me to do. I saw those kids walking down there with great big banners across there saying "kill the black bastards" and I knew that was not right. So, what did I do?

HANSON: What did you do?

RUTLAND: I went out and got a hold of them. Some of them were in our church. I'd get a hold of him and I'd say, "Hey man, what's the matter with you. You can't do this." And almost to a person they'd shake their haze and act like they'd been in a daze or something. And, so, by the help of some wonderful police and some of our people, we got the thing broken up before it did too much damage. But, I didn't sit down in my office and say now, let me see, if I do this, I'm going to get my head beat in. If I do this, they're going to do that to me. I just said, this is what I've got to do, and I did it.

HANSON: Did you ever fear for your life, for your children's life, for your wife's life enough to keep you from taking a stand? I mean we must remember this was a time of enormous fear.

RUTLAND: Well, some people would say you're a very courageous man. That isn't true, I was not courageous. I was scared to death all the time. Yes, I thought the night that I told you about a moment ago, until I realized that people don't 00:26:00walk around your house three times and, then, bomb you. They're just bomb you. A guy doesn't pull out a gun and say I'm going to shoot you. If he ever pulls out a gun and say I'm going to shoot you, forget it. If he's going to shoot you, he'll shoot you and say hey, I shot you. He's not going to pull that gun and say I'm going to shoot you. But, anyhow, yes I was scared that night. I was really afraid. I really anticipated something bad happening. It didn't happen.

HANSON: But afraid for your children. Did they follow your children to school? Did they do any threats that way?

RUTLAND: Yes. At least once a week somebody would call and say we're going, well, they said they were going to rape my wife more than anything else. And, then, they'd say we know that cute little girl of yours, we know how we can get a hold of her. And that kind of thing. Well, of course, I told Bob Lindberg that and Bob said he had people following and, so, we got along all right.

HANSON: Did your wife ever get afraid? Did she ever say, cut this out John. I think the time has come not to stay. Let's move on.

RUTLAND: Well, she never really did have the strong conviction on this that I have. She does now. But she did not have then. And, she really wanted me not to be quite so strong.

HANSON: But you didn't listen to her?

RUTLAND: Well, I tried to persuade her.

HANSON: And you think you did?

RUTLAND: Yes. Well, she stood by me.

HANSON: But, (inaudible) says in the book, and the name is something that escapes me now, that they ran you out of the Woodlawn church. You are saying that's not true? Let's correct it for the record.

RUTLAND: That is not true. They did not run me out. That's the only thing he said. He said some other things that were incorrect, but that's the one thing that bothered me most. Because I do not want the people in Woodlawn, the people in that church to be thought of as people who run me out. Now, don't misunderstand me. There were a lot of people who would have like to have run me out. And, I guess that's what he meant to say. His daddy was one of them.

HANSON: Wanted to run you out?

RUTLAND: Yes. And, so he heard that kind of thing. But people like Mr. O'Toole and Claude Hughes and Dr. Farnum and a lot of others that I could mention. The Kirby's, (inaudible) and that group, they stood by me, although many of them thought I was going too far. And they did not like where I was going. One time Sydney Hill, who by the way, still is living out at Trinity, and still standing for the right thing, but Sydney Hill was chairman of our administrative board and they got up and made a motion they were going to give the Methodist Layman's Union some money. Well, the Methodist Layman's Union was nothing but a White Citizens Council in disguise. And, so when they got through with that and they turned around to me and he said, the man presenting, he said, "Now you answer all these things, preacher." And, I said, "I don't have to answer Mr. (I'll give 00:29:00him another name), Mr. Young, I don't have to answer that. The only thing I want to say to you, you're no longer on this administrative board."

When I knew I did not have the authority to take anybody off the administrative board, but he didn't know that. And I knew he didn't know that. So I just said, "You're no longer on this board", and I just left. I said, "You folks do what you want to with it." After they stayed in there about five minutes, Syd came by and said, "Well, we just didn't even discuss it. We turned it down. And I want five minutes in the service next Sunday." And he got up the next Sunday and read the most beautiful statement about supporting a preacher whether you agree with him or not. And the hold church stood up and clapped. So, I had support from that church. I also had a lot of people not supporting me. But I didn't leave that church because they ran me off.

HANSON: Then, why did you leave the church?

RUTLAND: Because I had been there nine years and we had people who would never come back to that church as long as I was there. People, some of whom, moved 00:30:00their membership. And, I felt like those people who didn't get anything from my ministry had suffered long enough. And I thought they ought to get somebody, let them come in and let them come back. And, many of them did come back.

HANSON: Did the person who follow you take as strong a stand as you?

RUTLAND: Oh, no.

HANSON: In other words, it was more traditional this standard.

RUTLAND: No. He was way on the other side. He was a right wing person who believed in segregation and was going to keep it that way forever and that kind of thing. And I hated that so bad. But that's the way the Methodist church is, you know. You send one preacher does one thing and the other does something else.

HANSON: Did you ever have any bitterness against the Methodist church for not standing more behind you and other people that wanted to stand out? You've told me stories about the Bishop.

RUTLAND: ...you to be one of us and everybody know you're one of us. Please give it some consideration. Well my wife and my son both thought I was egotistical and terrible because I did not give him the permission to give me a degree. So, 00:33:00after they beat on me a while and he called back the next morning, I agreed to do it. I said all that to say this, that I didn't get the degree earlier because of my stand on race relations. I got the degree later.

HANSON: --So you think that the Methodist church or Christian churches are coming around in anyway. I mean the Baptist have suddenly gotten together, Black and White.

RUTLAND: I want to congratulate the Baptist church, I think there doing a wonderful job, I really do. I think the Methodist church who was the leader when I was in this kind of thing, I think we were the leaders then but I think we have kind of calmed down a little bit and, I don't think that we've, would say that we don't want to see Blacks and Whites together. I think it's just we've decided we want to do some other things and we just kind of easing up a little bit (inaudible). In those days when a few of us was really fighting for 00:34:00unification of Blacks and Whites, which we've done in the Methodist church, you know, we just have one conference now for Blacks and Whites. It took a terrible, terrible battle to get that done. And, so they're all together in the conference. But I want to say that the fellowship is much better. I hope it is.

HANSON: Thank you very much.

RUTLAND: Well, thank you for letting me come and do this. And let me emphasize the fact that I don't think that looking back on this thing, I want to tell you one more thing.

HANSON: Sure.

RUTLAND: Looking back on this, I don't look at myself as being anything courageous or more wise or better than other people who were not doing anything. One night after the cross burning I went down to our church and I knelt down by 00:35:00the altar as I did every day I was there. And I was praying for the Black people in our community because just a few nights before I had stopped at a little place on 3rd Avenue South where they had 36 people living with one spicket (inaudible) was all the water they had and one out house for these 36 people, and that's the only way these people had to use toilet facilities and I leaned over in my, it was about 1:00, I had been to the hospital. And I leaned over against my steering wheel and I just cried like a baby.

And, while I was crying there somebody knocked on the window and I rolled it down and it was a policeman. And he said, "What are you doing here?" And I said, 00:36:00"I'm the pastor of the church in Woodlawn." He said, "Oh, I know who you are." And he said, "Don't think you're the only one praying for these people." This is a White policeman. He said, "I'm praying for them, too." So the next Sunday night I was down there praying for these Black people and I heard a voice, I don't know if you ever hear a voice or not. But I heard a voice saying, "Pray for the Ku Klux Klan." I said, "Not me. You're asking the wrong thing. I cannot do that." And the voice said, "If you cannot pray for the Ku Klux Klan you cannot pray for anybody." And, so I have prayed for the Ku Klux Klan since then as I pray for my Black brothers and sisters. Thank you for letting me do this.

HANSON: Thank you.