Rev. Joseph Lewis Rogers Interviewed on March 2, 1995

HUNTLEY: Good morning, my name is Dr. Horace Huntley and I am here this morning with Rev. Joseph Lewis Rogers and we are doing this interview for the Civil Rights Institute. Today is March 2, 1995 and I would like to say thank you Rev. Rogers for coming out to sit with us today to talk about your life in Birmingham and the Civil Rights Movement. Let me just start by asking you what part of the state are your parents from?

ROGERS: My parents are from Montgomery, Alabama.

HUNTLEY: Were you born in Montgomery?

ROGERS: Montgomery.

HUNTLEY: How long did you live in Montgomery before you moved to Birmingham?

ROGERS: About 15 years.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever visit Birmingham before you moved to Birmingham?

ROGERS: When I was a kid.

HUNTLEY: Who did you visit?

ROGERS: My aunt.

HUNTLEY: Okay, did you...how old were you? Did you remember coming up to visit Birmingham several times?

ROGERS: I was four years old.

HUNTLEY: Four years old, and you stayed with her maybe during the summer?

ROGERS: For about six weeks.

HUNTLEY: Okay, and then you went back to Montgomery?

ROGERS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And then, how old were you when you came to Birmingham to live?

ROGERS: I came to Birmingham to live; I was 16 years old.

HUNTLEY: And how long did you stay when you came the first time?

ROGERS: The first time, I stayed about three months and went back to Montgomery.

HUNTLEY: And you went back to Montgomery and what did you do in Montgomery when you went back?

ROGERS: I went back to Montgomery and finished elementary school.

HUNTLEY: I see. Well whatdid you work when you came to Birmingham?

ROGERS: Yes sir.

HUNTLEY: What was your job?

ROGERS: My job was keeping the furnace heated up.

HUNTLEY: And, for what company did you work for?

ROGERS: Gimmicks Pipe Shop.

HUNTLEY: Gimmicks Pipe Shop. Where was that located?

ROGERS: North Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: Okay. How many brothers and sisters did you have?

ROGERS: No brothers, no sisters.

HUNTLEY: You're the only child?

ROGERS: The only child.

HUNTLEY: Were you spoiled?

ROGERS: Yes, with a treetop.

HUNTLEY: How much education did you have?

ROGERS: When I came to Birmingham I had finished elementary school.

HUNTLEY: Okay, and when you came back to Birmingham, did you then go back and work for a pipe shop, the second time, when you came to live in Birmingham permanently?

ROGERS: When I came back I didn't go to the pipe shop; I went to the icehouse.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about the icehouse.

ROGERS: The icehouse, I rolled coal there to keep the furnace rolling.

HUNTLEY: Can you try to describe that job?

ROGERS: Well, it was a big furnace there and I had to roll enough coal in the day for the night fireman to fire it during that night.

HUNTLEY: So, you fire during the day?

ROGERS: No, I just put the coal there.

HUNTLEY: Oh, you just made sure the coal was there. How long did you do that, how long did you work there?

ROGERS: I stayed there for about four months.

HUNTLEY: And then, what did you do afterwards?

ROGERS: After that, I went to the American Red Eagle.

HUNTLEY: Okay, and what did you do out there?

ROGERS: I was an assistant to the foreman.

HUNTLEY: Did you make radiators?

ROGERS: The company made radiator heaters, I was assistant to the foreman and 00:04:00would have to take in new and take out old ones; keep the sand clean formed the mold with.

HUNTLEY: After that, you then went to the coal mines, is that right?

ROGERS: Yes, I went to the coal mine.

HUNTLEY: What was your job in the coal mine?

ROGERS: In the coal mine I was loading coal.

HUNTLEY: Loading coal. For how long, how long did you work there?

ROGERS: Oh, I worked in the coal mines 20 years.

HUNTLEY: Were you a member of the union?

ROGERS: I was a member of the union when they got organized. They got organized in '33.

HUNTLEY: '33. The NIRA, National Industrial Recovery Act. Well, how active were you with the union? Were you ever an official in the union itself? Did you work 00:05:00on any committees?

ROGERS: I was on the committee and I was vice president of the local.

HUNTLEY: Vice president of the local, so you were very active. You mean there were Black vice presidents at that time of the local unions?

ROGERS: Yes. White president and a Black vice.

HUNTLEY: Oh, there was always a White president and a Black vice president?

ROGERS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Oh, why was that?

ROGERS: Well, they were trying to...whatsoever a man was qualified to do, they were trying to get him to do that job.

HUNTLEY: I see. I noticed also you were elected to be check weighmen. The first in the State of Alabama in 1937.

ROGERS: The first Black, in 1937.

HUNTLEY: What is the job of a check weighmen?

ROGERS: Sit up on the top house where the coal come out and weigh it when it 00:06:00goes across the scale.

HUNTLEY: How was that job? Did you enjoy that job?

ROGERS: Well, I enjoyed partly and partly I didn't.

HUNTLEY: What did you enjoy about it?

ROGERS: I enjoyed seeing the coal roll across the scales and giving them just weight, but I didn't like it so well, that strife when I come down off the truck.

HUNTLEY: What kind of strife did you get when you came down?

ROGERS: Well, they threaten me and all that type of stuff.

HUNTLEY: Why did they threaten you?

ROGERS: They didn't want a Black man to have that job because number one, they had never had one in the State of Alabama.

HUNTLEY: Oh, that was a White man's job and so therefore you were threatened by other Whites. Well, what did Black workers say about your being a check weighmen?

ROGERS: Well, the Blacks, we had a few of them. They didn't like it, they were with the other fellows, but it was just a few of them.

HUNTLEY: Well, were you supported by the union?

ROGERS: Supported by the union.

HUNTLEY: How long did you remain as check weighmen?

ROGERS: Well, one year.

HUNTLEY: One year, and then what did you do after that?

ROGERS: After that, I left Lewisburg and went to Republic Steel.

HUNTLEY: How long were you at Republic Steel?

ROGERS: I was at Republic Steel from the latter part of 37 until 43.

HUNTLEY: What was your job at Republic Steel?

ROGERS: My job at Republic Steel was the coke roller, loading coal and a committeeman.

HUNTLEY: What was your pay like?

ROGERS: We were working by the ton. Making around about $200 a month.

HUNTLEY: Was that pretty good money for that time?

ROGERS: Yes, that was pretty good.

HUNTLEY: Is that why the White workers didn't want a Black worker on that job because it made more money?

ROGERS: Well, the Constitution give a person a right to a job regardless as to what it was, if they were qualified for it.

HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your community. What was your community like?

ROGERS: I had a very nice community.

HUNTLEY: What community did you live in?

ROGERS: North Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about the make-up. Were there people with different kinds of occupations, people with different kinds of occupations? What kind of work did the people do that lived around you?

ROGERS: Well, there were several plants. There were several stove foundries and there was U S Pipe, what is Jim Walter now, it was Dimmicks then. It Dimmicks 00:09:00and went to U S Pipe, left U S Pipe and Jim Walter now. Now, that was a great place to work and they had several foundries there where you make stoves.

HUNTLEY: Who were your neighbors?

ROGERS: Well, I had so many neighbors.

HUNTLEY: What kind of work did they do?

ROGERS: Well, some mined, some worked in the foundries and others in factories, things like that.

HUNTLEY: You were married?

ROGERS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: You have children?

ROGERS: Two.

HUNTLEY: Two children. Were your children real young when you were working in the mines.

ROGERS: No, they weren't with me, they were in school.

HUNTLEY: I see, they were in school at the time. Were you a member of any community organizations?

ROGERS: None but the United Mine Workers.

HUNTLEY: Okay, so that kept you pretty busy.

ROGERS: Until the organization came in.

HUNTLEY: The Alabama Christian Movement?

ROGERS: Un huh.

HUNTLEY: How did you get involved with the Civil Rights Movement?

ROGERS: Well, Shuttles worth was my friend, and through him, we worked together in the churches and then we worked together in the movement.

HUNTLEY: How did you get to know Shuttlesworth?

ROGERS: Well, he pastored one of my neighborhood churches.

HUNTLEY: In North Birmingham?

ROGERS: Un huh.

HUNTLEY: You are a pastor as well. When did you become a pastor?

ROGERS: I became a pastor in '43.

HUNTLEY: In 1943. What church were you a member of at the time?

ROGERS: Shady Grove Baptist Church. The same church I'm pastoring now.

HUNTLEY: Did you become pastor of the church in 1943.

ROGERS: Yes. That was my membership church when the pastor died and I had been preaching about two years and they made a choice of me and I been there ever since.

HUNTLEY: Okay, so from 1943 you've been at Shady Grove and the movement...the Alabama Christian Movement of Human Rights would be organized in 1956. Were you one of those initial people that helped to organize the movement?

ROGERS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Were you there at the first meetings?

ROGERS: No, I wasn't at the first one.

HUNTLEY: But you were there sometime in the early period?

ROGERS: Yes sir.

HUNTLEY: What role did you play in the Movement?

ROGERS: I was president of the Finance Committee.

HUNTLEY: What did that entail, what did you do?

ROGERS: I would take the money to the bank.

HUNTLEY: So, you handled the money. You must have been one of those that was very well trusted then. Did you attend all of the mass meetings?

ROGERS: Just about all of them. The only reason I didn't attend would be if I was out of town.

HUNTLEY: Well tell me, what was a mass meeting like?

ROGERS: Well, it would seem like a church mostly because all of them were looking like religious people, the way we operate was just like a church. We would have a meeting, singing, praying and lifting an offering and speakers.

HUNTLEY: Why were the meetings so popular?

ROGERS: To me, the reason they were so popular it was set up on a Christian base. Most of the people were Christian people.

HUNTLEY: So, did most people feel that there was a need for some kind of change?

ROGERS: Oh yes.

HUNTLEY: What kind of changes were necessary?

ROGERS: Well they wanted to change many things, where other people could get jobs and where they should have them, such as changing at the depot, changing bathrooms.

HUNTLEY: During the time of the Movement, you were very active and in attending those mass meetings, were police there?

ROGERS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Why were they there?

ROGERS: They were there to take notes of what we were doing.

HUNTLEY: So, in other words, they were there to spy on you? Did you go to jail?

ROGERS: No, I never went to jail. I don't know why I didn't. Folks all around me, but I never did go to jail.

HUNTLEY: Well, you had to take care of the money. If you had gone to jail....

ROGERS: Yeah, I got them out of jail when they got in jail.

HUNTLEY: That's right. So, if the man with the money is in jail, the movement would have been in trouble. Did others in your family participate?

ROGERS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Who participated?

ROGERS: My wife.

HUNTLEY: Was she ever arrested?

ROGERS: No, she wasn't ever arrested.

HUNTLEY: How did your wife react? Did she go to the meetings with you?

ROGERS: Well, sometimes. She didn't go real regular.

HUNTLEY: Well, what was her reaction to your being involved in the Movement?

ROGERS: My action in the movement was to help straighten it out, help righting the wrongs.

HUNTLEY: Well did your wife go along with you?

ROGERS: Oh, yes.

HUNTLEY: Was she supportive of you?

ROGERS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Did she ever say don't go tonight?

ROGERS: Never did.

HUNTLEY: That's quite an accomplishment there then, if your wife never discouraged you. What benefits do you think your family, the community realized as a result of the Movement?

ROGERS: Well, we have a lot of benefits and changes in lots of things. Places you couldn't go, well we have to we could go there. A lot of things that we thought was wrong, it was right.

HUNTLEY: Are there any incidences that you may have been involved with during the struggle that you would like to share with us? Were you ever stopped by the police, for instance?

ROGERS: Oh, yes, I was stopped by the police.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about that.

ROGERS: Well, if he didn't do anything but stop me and ask me where was I going, and I told them and they told me well you can't go there you have to go this way.

HUNTLEY: So, did that upset you?

ROGERS: No, never did.

HUNTLEY: Is that the only time that you were stopped by the police?

ROGERS: No, I was stopped several times. They would stop me and questioned me.

HUNTLEY: You were never roughed up or anything by the police? The police never beat you?

ROGERS: No, and never was arrested.

HUNTLEY: Did they ever harass you? Did you ever get telephone calls at your house? People harassing you about being involved in the Movement?

ROGERS: Well, several times they could call but they wouldn't give no names. They were people against the movement.

HUNTLEY: What would they say when they call you?

ROGERS: Well "y'all think you gonna win, but you ain't gonna win."

HUNTLEY: So, the Movement then, in your opinion, was very necessary?

ROGERS: It was necessary.

HUNTLEY: Why do you think it started, when it did? Why do you think that in 00:18:001956, the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights organized?

ROGERS: Well, I got interested in it after Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat. Then Martin Luther King and Shuttles worth got together, and it was necessary.

HUNTLEY: We do know that the Movement was very, very necessary. What do you think, if there were any, were there any failures within the Movement?

ROGERS: Well, lots of things failed, but it wasn't too much.

HUNTLEY: So, you think that it was basically successful?

ROGERS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Can you briefly talk about some of the changes that you've seen over the time when you first came to Birmingham and today? How has Birmingham changed over time?

ROGERS: It has changed considerably. When I first came to Birmingham, you find a dead man on the street or on a railroad most any day. But it doesn't happen like that now.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever determine who those people were and why they were dead?

ROGERS: Well, some were chalked up like the train rolled over them and some threw in water and some in bushes and like that but mostly somebody would get 00:20:00killed every night.

HUNTLEY: You said this was part of the harassment and intimidation of Black people?

ROGERS: Well, that was before this organization was and I think this organization helped to curb a lot of that.

HUNTLEY: Were members of your church active in the Movement?

ROGERS: Yes, they were very active.

HUNTLEY: What did they say when you got involved as a minister? Did you get involved first or did your church get involved?

ROGERS: Me.

HUNTLEY: What did your members say when you first got involved?

ROGERS: The lined up, took part and went to jail, just like the other people did.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever have meetings at your church?

ROGERS: That's right.

HUNTLEY: Many of those meetings were led by members of your church, I assume?

ROGERS: Yes, and members of different churches.

HUNTLEY: Because you would go from different churches all over the city? Was yours on the regular circuit?

ROGERS: Yes sir, that's right.

HUNTLEY: How many churches in North Birmingham were involved?

ROGERS: Oh, just about everyone.

HUNTLEY: Did all the ministers supported what was happening with the Movement in North Birmingham?

ROGERS: It was supported real nicely.

HUNTLEY: Were there any churches in Birmingham that didn't support the Movement?

ROGERS: Oh, yes.

HUNTLEY: There were. But in North Birmingham, you basically had most of the churches in support and you could use all of those churches for meetings?

ROGERS: Well, a lot of them you couldn't use because they couldn't hold the people. The crowds...now they didn't come to our church regular because our church would hold only about 500-600 men.

HUNTLEY: You are a carpenter also, right?

ROGERS: That's right.

HUNTLEY: Didn't you build your church?

ROGERS: I built four churches. I built the one I'm pastoring and three others.

HUNTLEY: What are the others that you built?

ROGERS: I built Primitive Baptist and three Baptist churches.

HUNTLEY: All in Birmingham?

ROGERS: Have you built homes as well?

ROGERS: I got burned out in l946, that's when I started to build, and I built my own house.

HUNTLEY: Built your own house, built your own church?

ROGERS: Built the church and the house.

HUNTLEY: You are not building any now are you?

ROGERS: No, I couldn't do it, now.

HUNTLEY: I was going to get you to build me one if you were still building. Do you remember any other occurrences, anything that happened during the movement 00:23:00that would be of interest, that people would like to know about?

ROGERS: Well, a lot of things they would like to know about. Some would like to know that places they couldn't go, restrooms they couldn't use, and the Movement opened a lot of doors that was closed.

HUNTLEY: What about the internal workings of the Movement? You know, we see all of the films, people marching. We see people on the church steps, but what about the business meetings within the Movement, how did those meetings usually go?

ROGERS: Well, when you had real business meetings, we didn't want anybody else in on it, why it was just the officers.

HUNTLEY: Did you do any fund raising? Did you raise any money for the Movement?

ROGERS: Oh, yes. I was Chairman of the Finance Committee, I had to raise it.

HUNTLEY: How did you raise money?

ROGERS: Well, I would go from church to church and people would, you know, give me donations and like that.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever do any speaking?

ROGERS: Yes, sir.

HUNTLEY: Around Birmingham? Did you ever go outside of Birmingham?

ROGERS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Where did you go?

ROGERS: I went to Montgomery, down to Jasper, Carbonhill.

HUNTLEY: So, you were pretty well known. When you went in, did you normally come out with money?

ROGERS: Oh, yes, they would give me donations.

HUNTLEY: When the demonstrations were going on and people were being arrested, 00:25:00then you were not arrested because you had to sign the checks?

ROGERS: Well, I don't know why they didn't arrest me. They arrested them all around me, but they never did arrest me.

HUNTLEY: That's interesting. So, you could have been arrested, but they would never arrest you?

ROGERS: Right.

HUNTLEY: You were a pretty big man, right?

ROGERS: I was as little as I am now.

HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to just share with people, because I know that you have a lot of information about the Movement? What was your relationship for instance with Shuttlesworth?

ROGERS: Shuttlesworth and I worked together in our churches. He just like a brother, any time I need him, he'd come and any time he needed me, I would come 00:26:00to the rescue. If he had to go somewhere, needed some money and didn't have enough, he'd call me and he'd go.

HUNTLEY: So, how far was your church from his church? ROGERS: About three blocks.

HUNTLEY: So, the two of you then, worked very closely together?

ROGERS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: When he first started in developing the Movement, were you one of the first that he called to participate?

ROGERS: Well, I wasn't first, but I was in the first crowd. I was one of the first ones.

HUNTLEY: I see. The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights then would probably have your stamp on it?

ROGERS: Yes, I have a plaque from the Alabama Christian Movement.

HUNTLEY: You have a plaque for the service that you rendered to them?

ROGERS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: If you were to had the ability to change anything in the Movement, what 00:27:00would you change?

ROGERS: Well, if I did have the ability to change one thing, that's on the annual days such as Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving, and change it and have the people know that there was no such thing as Black man and White man. I would have them quit going to the stores, not after I selected bargains come through, so that's one of my ideas. Don't buy them. Teach your dollars some sense.

HUNTLEY: Teach your dollars some sense. Why would you do that?

ROGERS: Well, because the people was they were against us.

HUNTLEY: So, you were trying to put pressure on those...

ROGERS: On their livelihood.

HUNTLEY: Did that work?

ROGERS: Yeah, it worked.

HUNTLEY: How did you do that?

ROGERS: Well, we just made the announcement and Miles College and the people in other churches and mostly schools couldn't participate like Miles College. Dr. Kitt would turn them loose and let them march.

HUNTLEY: So, Miles was very active?

ROGERS: Oh, Miles played a great part.

HUNTLEY: So, you then, were one of those that sort of enticed Miles to get involved in the selective buying? Was that your strategy?

ROGERS: Shuttlesworth.

HUNTLEY: Shuttlesworth. But you would carry it out?

ROGERS: And we would carry it out together. We worked together on committee work we would work together.

HUNTLEY: How active were the students from Miles College?

ROGERS: Oh, they were active. They were ready to go anytime you'd say go.

HUNTLEY: Well, how did they keep people from going into the stores?

ROGERS: Marching, marching. We had some regular people, you know marching on the street.

But, when we got ready for that march, well they were there.

HUNTLEY: Well, what about selective buying? Did everybody just agree not to go into the stores? Was there ever anybody that wanted to go in?

ROGERS: Now that was my idea on that. That was one thing that I shared with him, told me that would kind of slow them down. Because, no money, nothing to eat.

HUNTLEY: So, money speaks.

ROGERS: Yeah.

HUNTLEY: How did you select the store to boycott or did you just boycott all the stores?

ROGERS: Didn't select them, just any of them.

HUNTLEY: So, any of the stores downtown. Were there ever anybody, any Black people that went on in and bought anyway?

ROGERS: Well, some slipped in and they quit slipping and went ordering it by mail.

HUNTLEY: What would happen if students were standing there boycotting the store or picketing the store and someone would try to go in?

ROGERS: Well, I would ask them not to go in, but if he went on in, we wouldn't bother them.

HUNTLEY: So, no one ever bothered because they went in?

ROGERS: No, we were peaceful.

HUNTLEY: So that strategy then was used here in Birmingham and was used in other places as well. Had you seen it used before or was that your idea?

ROGERS: My idea. I started it on our church. The members were spending a lot of money unnecessary money and I told them "I don't want no body on Easter with a new outfit and the people saw how much money they were saving on Easter and they said they were glad that I insisted that. One man told me, I saved him about $300.

HUNTLEY: So, you have then, been with your church since 1943?

ROGERS: I've been there 57 years, but that's my membership church.

HUNTLEY: But you have been the leader of the church since 1943? That is quite an accomplishment.

ROGERS: I served all the way through on every auxiliary in the church.

HUNTLEY: So, people must have a lot of confidence in you as a result of that. I see that you celebrated your 50th anniversary in 1993?

ROGERS: Yes, this year would be what, 50?

HUNTLEY: 52. That's okay. You've done your time. Well, I want to thank you for coming and spending the time with me today and I am going to take these materials here that you've given me, and go through them and write some things 00:33:00out as well, but it is very obvious that we are glad that we had the opportunity to sit down with you and talk with you about your life and times in Birmingham.

ROGERS: Thank you.