Janice Kelsey Interviewed on March 31, 2008

KELSEY: And you'll edit out the bad parts.

COLEMAN: There won't be any bad parts.

KELSEY: I don't know, Wayne. You get this old, your memory goes, psh. Say, "Oh, what was I trying to say now?"

COLEMAN: Okay. We're ready when you are.

ANDERSON: Okay. Well, I'm Laura Anderson.

KELSEY: Okay.

ANDERSON: I'm glad to know you already. But I'll tell you more about what we're doing today.

KELSEY: Okay.

ANDERSON: You already know about our oral history project. And this interview will become part of that collection of oral histories. But we also have a second purpose in mind for this, which is a kiosk that's going to be in the permanent exhibition after we renovate a few parts of the galleries, which I hope you've heard about. But we plan to do the physical construction of that in the fall, and perhaps have a ribbon cutting next February.

KELSEY: Great.

ANDERSON: We don't know about that. Currently, and I know you walk through there all the time with groups who ask you to speak, when you get to the section with the television sets, where we interpret the children's movement, there's that drum thing that a lot of people don't even know you can move.

KELSEY: Yeah, right.

ANDERSON: See the photos on and some mugshots and thumbprints and things. We've decided, since that doesn't get enough use, that we want to replace it with a kiosk that will have some oral histories.

KELSEY: Okay.

ANDERSON: So there you go. That's the idea. And we just want to get your story about your involvement in the children's movement on tape again in a different format, for you on that kiosk. And then researchers will be able to use this for evermore if they want to reference your story. That's what we're doing this morning. Again, even though we know you well and you're a friend of the institute, if you could just give me your full name and date of birth and where 00:02:00you were born, and just start talking from there for me. And I'll help you along.

KELSEY: I'm Janice Wesley Kelsey. I was born April 18th, 1947 in Birmingham, Alabama to Henry and Katie Wesley. I grew up in the Titusville area of Birmingham. I am a product of the Birmingham City Schools.

ANDERSON: What was life like growing up in Titusville? What did your parents do for a living?

KELSEY: My father was a laborer with Tennessee Coal and Iron. My mother worked part-time as an insurance agent for a while. For a while, she worked at Woodlawn High School in the cafeteria. But during most of our growing up years, she was 00:03:00an at home mom.

ANDERSON: Well, then how did cute little Janice get involved in a children's movement?

KELSEY: Oh, I got involved.

ANDERSON: And what was the children's movement?

KELSEY: Well, my initial interest in civil rights and becoming a part of that really didn't have anything to do with civil rights. I had a friend whose mother and daughter were in the mass choir. Mass meetings would be held on Monday nights, and she would come to school on Tuesdays and talk about the mass meetings. She would say things about the good singing, about all of the ministers who could speak so well, about how crowded the churches would be. And she talked about the cute boys that would be there. I said, "I've got to go." So 00:04:00I got permission to go to a mass meeting, and it was everything that she had described. The music was great. Carlton Reese could do wonders with that organ. Speakers like Shuttlesworth and King and N.H. Smith, they were all well dressed and well spoken, and I was quite impressed.

KELSEY: And at that first meeting, one of the ministers who looked a little different than the others, his name was James Bevel, asked all of the teenagers to meet him in the church's annex. That particular meeting was held at New Pilgrim Baptist Church. We went to the church's annex. He polled the audience, what schools we went to. We had a lot of school spirit, and we cheered when he called our school's name. Then he went back and started asking questions. Okay. 00:05:00I'm a graduate of Ullman High School. He said, "At Ullman High School, how many electric typewriters do you have?" Electric typewriters were probably like computers are today. And I said, "We have one, but I get to type on it because I'm a good typist."

KELSEY: And he said, "Did you know at Phillips High School," which was an all white school, "That they have three rooms of electric typewriters? They don't even practice on those things you use at Ullman." That kind of got my interest rolling. He asked if any of the guys there played football at Ullman. My brother was on the football team. And he asked, "Have you ever wondered why your helmets are blue and white when you get them, but your colors are green and gray?" My brother said, "We always paint them the right colors." He said, "Well, why don't 00:06:00they come in green and gray?" And of course, we didn't know the answer. And he said, "It's because you get Ramsey's discards." He didn't just choose Ullman. He gave lots of examples.

KELSEY: But it gave me the knowledge that something wasn't right with this picture. He asked if we'd ever looked at our copyright dates in our textbooks. And I hadn't looked at a copyright date. Table of contents, yeah. Copyright date, no. He said, "Check that out. Your books are outdated." The more he said, the more I knew that I'm being mistreated, and I didn't even know it. So he said, "Now if you want to do something about it, you can. Your parents really can't because if they get in trouble, if they go and participate, go to jail, they're going to lose their jobs. There's no one to take care of you. But you 00:07:00don't have a lot to lose. After all, you're getting a second class education." I bought into it and that's why I became a part of the civil rights movement.

ANDERSON: So what happened then?

KELSEY: Okay. Well, May 2nd, 1963. That was what we were calling D-Day. And we were saying, "That's D-Day we're going to go and get our freedom." I had attended several meetings after that initial one. We had learned freedom songs. We had been instructed that if you could not remain nonviolent, you could not participate in this movement. So on D-Day, it was on a Thursday, I got up and I was just welled up with excitement thinking about what was going to happen. We knew that if we paraded without a permit, we were going to jail. So I had packed my purse. Got my toothbrush, soap, deodorant, all the things I thought I would 00:08:00need for a nice overnight stay.

KELSEY: And my mother sensed something was going on. They were talking about it on the radio in coded words that we're going to have a party in the park. We're going to turn it out, saying things like that. And we knew exactly what the DJs were talking about. My mother cautioned me. She said, "I'm sending you to school. Don't you go nowhere and get in any trouble. I don't have any money to get you out." I said, "Yes, ma'am." That's what she needs to hear. That's what I said. But I was going to school. I just wasn't going to stay, because the plan was to go to school and then walk out. So I went to school and everybody was talking about it. And when we went to first period class first, and then to homeroom.

KELSEY: When it was time to go to homeroom, we started walking out in droves. 00:09:00People were driving around the campus offering rides to 16th Street Church. But most of us chose to walk. We walked and we were singing freedom songs. And when we got to 16th Street, there were people everywhere, in the park, on the steps, in the church, all over. And the excitement just intensified. And when we went into the church, we sang, we prayed. And Andrew Young and James Bevel were in charge. They lined us up in pairs, and they sent us out, I found out later, in waves of 50. I was in that first wave.

KELSEY: We joined hands, walking out in pairs singing We Shall Overcome. I got maybe a block away from the church before we were stopped. A police officer, speaking through a megaphone, told us that we were in violation of a city ordinance. We cannot parade without a permit. We could get out of the line, 00:10:00nothing would happen. If we remained in the line, we were going to jail. That was a very intimidating moment for me personally. A, I was not accustomed to disobeying adults, especially a white male who had a stick in one hand, a pistol on his hip, and I kind of wanted to obey him. Someone further back started singing We Are Not Afraid. That gave me the courage to remain in the line, to get in the paddy wagon, and to go to jail. Keep going? Okay.

KELSEY: We went first to ... We had been told to all say we were the same age, so that we would go to the same place. I didn't know it was a strategy. I just thought that was something we were doing. So we were saying we were 15, most of the girls. If you were 15, they got us from family court and carried us to the 00:11:00county courthouse. It was interesting to me that as people continued to be arrested, the family court was just jam packed. So they had to call a school bus to get us. Birmingham City didn't have school buses at that time. So I had my first ride in the front of the bus, and I was just as happy as a lark to ride in the front of the bus. And left family court, came to county jail.

KELSEY: County jail, we were fingerprinted. Mugshots were taken. And we were taken upstairs. County jail was not a really nice place to be. It was cold. There weren't mattresses on the beds. There weren't partitions at the commode. And there were people everywhere. And we sat around on the floor and on each other and kind of sang and prayed. Spent one night, I spent one night at county 00:12:00jail. The next morning, school buses came again, carried us to Fair Park Arena. Now again, I was excited because black folk did not go to Fair Park. It was kiddie land park. We could go only on Saturday nights after the fair. My parents never let us go. So going to kiddie land park, I thought it was going to be exciting.

KELSEY: Well, we didn't go to the Ferris wheel and all the amusement park. Went in the back. It was a building that was set up like a 4-H dormitory. There were some beds that had mattresses and linen. I got one of those. And we had lockers and nice restrooms. The floor was tiled. And so it was a much nice place than county jail. And we sat around there and talked and sang. And I knew a lot of 00:13:00people who were there, and so I didn't feel in any way uncomfortable or anxious. In fact, a news reporter came. Rumors were floating about what was going on in the jails with the kids. And he asked me. How did I feel about being there? And there was a commercial on TV at the time about Carnation milk. And the commercial said, "Carnation cows are contented." So when he asked me: How did I feel about being in jail? I told him I was as contented as a Carnation cow. He snapped my picture and I've seen that in several publications.

ANDERSON: So how long did you stay out there?

KELSEY: I got out on Sunday.

ANDERSON: So from Thursday.

KELSEY: Thursday to Sunday. There were announcements apparently made in churches that parents could come and sign their children out. They did not have to pay, 00:14:00and there would be no penalty and that kind of thing. So my parents did come and get me out. Of course, we were all expelled from school. But Reverend Calvin Woods also had a daughter who was in that group, who had been expelled. And he carried the Birmingham Board of Education to court. The circuit court in Atlanta, I think it was, ruled that we had to be reinstated, and we were. So the only consequence, I think, was that they never cleared our arrest records as they said they would. That never hampered me from anything though.

ANDERSON: Yeah. I was going to say. How important is that to you right now?

KELSEY: Not a bit. Not a bit. I had no idea then that what we were doing would be historic in any way, or of any interest to anybody. I thought it was just 00:15:00such a minor role. And in fact, I didn't think it bothered anybody anywhere until September 15th. And that was a really devastating time. The girls who were killed in that bombing, I knew. I had a connection with at least three of them. Denise McNair, her father used to be our milkman. Carol Robinson, her father used to be my band teacher. And Cynthia Wesley and I had become friends when she was adopted by Gertrude Wesley. And because I have such a large family, everybody at Ullman High School with that last name, Wesley, was my sibling except Cynthia. But people thought we were sisters, and so I think she was the first young person that I knew who died, let alone had been killed.

KELSEY: And so I found that to be a very, very devastating thing. And I thought, so unfair, because they had not demonstrated. They were in Sunday school, and I just didn't know it would bother someone to the extent that they would do something like that.

ANDERSON: It's probably difficult to answer the question without the church bombing in your mind.

KELSEY: Right.

ANDERSON: But can you just talk a little more about your family's feelings about what you were doing, and also teachers?

KELSEY: My family's feeling, I think my mother and father were afraid for me, for my safety. I had no idea that I was in any danger, so I didn't have any fear. I think when I was released that they were relieved that nothing had 00:17:00happened. However, by that time, my brother was in jail. But I think after the arrest and the release of the children, I think our parents were proud that we had enough courage to stand up for what we believed in and they were proud of us. Now teachers, what do you mean? What about teachers?

ANDERSON: Well, did they look another way?

KELSEY: What did my teachers at the school think? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Because I remember asking one of my teachers. I had a good GPA and I wanted to protect that. And somehow I know that we respected teachers a lot more then, than I think they're respected today. And I had asked her, she was a young teacher. "Suppose some kids walk out of your class today. Are they going to fail?" And 00:18:00she said, "Well, if everybody walks, there's nobody to fail." And for me that was saying, "It's okay to do it." Yeah. So I think the teachers really were okay with it. They couldn't say it, but they didn't try to stop it.

ANDERSON: Okay. You've spoken to so many of the important things already. The role of music, you've touched on that. Do you want to say more about ...

KELSEY: Well, I will say that the music was ... At my church, we of course had a choir and they had robes. But the music didn't sound the same. Carlton Reese had a different spin on the music or a different beat. He had taken a lot of the negro spirituals and changed the words, and they were so applicable to what we 00:19:00were fighting for, until it just raised an awareness and an excitement that just made us want to be a part of it. Before I'll be a slave, I'll be buried in my grave. I woke up this morning with my mind stayed on freedom. Those things just ... That really said how I felt. And I think the music was very important. It was a great communication tool and it was something that was just shared, I think. Everybody could feel it.

ANDERSON: I loved your honesty up front about how you got to the first mass meeting you went to, to begin with. And that makes me wonder about a question I always ask people who got involved by any means, which is: How aware were you, 00:20:00or not aware? You're about the same age as my mother, a white southerner, who was not aware of anything that was going on. But how aware were you of things that other young people were doing around the South?

KELSEY: I was not aware. I was not aware. In my community, I really did not encounter people of a different race. Except, there was a store, a grocery store, in our neighborhood that was run by two white men. My father knew them. He called them by their first names. I called them Mr. Pete, Mr. Joe, because I called everybody mister. So I didn't know that things were different on the other side of town. I think my parents protected us from the kinds of injustices that they had endured. Riding on the back of the bus, yeah, I knew I rode in the 00:21:00back of the bus, but I'd always ridden in the back of the bus, and it didn't bother me. I didn't think beyond what was going on in my world. In my world, all was well.

KELSEY: And the Birmingham news may have been reporting some information, but I wasn't really reading the Birmingham news. I was reading Dear Abby. And if I had to do a current events, I'd cut something out of the front page or something like that. But I was totally oblivious to what was going on elsewhere.

ANDERSON: So when sit ins were happening, those were older people. Those were college age students.

KELSEY: Those were college kids. And I had family members who were in college who participated in things like that, but at our house at dinner, we weren't 00:22:00talking about civil rights and sit ins and beatings and things like that. My parents may have been discussing those things, but the kids weren't a part of those discussions in my house. So I found out a lot of things after the demonstration, some things that my parents had endured, that I was just totally unaware of.

ANDERSON: Well, tell me again how old you were during the 63 event, and then how it impacted your life after.

KELSEY: When I went to the first meeting, it was before my birthday and I was 16. And how did it impact what?

ANDERSON: The rest of your life.

KELSEY: Well, it certainly made me more interested in what was going on around 00:23:00me, and not just in my immediate environment. But it made me read more, pay attention more. In fact, I think it probably made me more sensitive in so many areas, and how I'm treated as compared to how someone else might be treated. It made me stand up and speak up for myself and how I felt about things. It made me instill that in my children, that no matter who it is you're going against, one is no better than you. I never felt that anybody was better than me anyway. But I just never had any thoughts about there was something wrong because I never had to compare myself with somebody else. And when it was brought to me, yeah, I 00:24:00had some thoughts and feelings about that.

ANDERSON: I get that a lot about Titusville.

KELSEY: You've heard a lot about Titusville.

ANDERSON: No. I've heard that a lot about Titusville.

KELSEY: Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Okay.

ANDERSON: That, that world view is kind of prominent in Titusville.

KELSEY: Okay. Yeah.

ANDERSON: Makes it sound like a nice place to grow up.

KELSEY: Absolutely. Before integration, middle class blacks and lower middle class blacks, everybody lived in the same neighborhoods, went to the same churches. And so there wasn't such a marked difference economically. And so we had lots of role models around, and it was a safe environment. We used to call people nosy Nellies because if they saw you doing something, they could correct you and then tell your parents. And nothing was going to happen to them. Something might happen to you for doing it. It was really, you hear about, it 00:25:00takes a village to raise a child. We really had that village kind of atmosphere because we knew everybody on the block. They knew all of us. They knew our parents. And we had close relatives who lived within walking distance of where we lived. And so it really was a great place to grow up.

ANDERSON: Well, given all that, how did you feel about people you knew who did not take part?

KELSEY: I understood because we were told it was widely known that if employers found out that the children of their employees were involved, that they could lose their jobs. And one of my very good friends, who worked for a white family, she was domestic worker, her mother was. And the father, I think, may have been the chauffeur. And they straight up said, "If we find out that one of your 00:26:00children is involved, you don't have a job with us anymore." So I understood why some people had to go to school, and that really didn't bother me.

KELSEY: Probably if my mother had known that's what I was going to do, she may have made me stay at home. She may have been too afraid to let me out because our parents were protective. And so I didn't have any bad feelings about people who did not because I really didn't view this as a really big thing. This was something I felt that somebody mistreated me, and I can go down here and demonstrate and let folk know I didn't like it.But I had no idea that it would have a global effect, and that years later somebody would want to know what I thought or how I felt about it. So I certainly didn't have any feelings about 00:27:00somebody who didn't go.

ANDERSON: And yet, it sounds to me like you kind of protected your parents in the same way that they were protecting you.

KELSEY: Yeah. Yeah, because I didn't want them to know and be worried.

ANDERSON: Yeah. At what point in life did it sink in for you that the whole world had been watching and wanted to hear now?

KELSEY: Okay. When I first was aware that someone wanted to know what I did, there was a teacher at Hayes High School. Her name was Lilly May Fincher. She taught history. And she and my sister were friends. They worked at the same school, taught at the same school. And she asked me if I would come over and talk to her class about my participation in the civil rights movement. And I was 00:28:00totally shocked. She had a book that had that picture in it with me sitting on the floor at Fair Park Arena. I had never seen that picture. I remember exactly when it was taken and what I had said, but I hadn't seen the picture. She had a book with the picture in it. And she asked me to talk to her class about it, and I did.

KELSEY: And it was several little amusing things that happened during that time. I had taken my sister's leather jacket because they told us it might be cold in jail, so bring a sweater or a wrap. Well, it was May so it was hot in Birmingham. But I took my sister's leather jacket anyway. And she had a friend of hers that was in the service, had given her his wings, and she had them on the collars of the leather jacket. And I thought that would be right nice to 00:29:00take, and I took it. And when I checked out, somebody had taken it out of my locker. And for years, we just went round and round about that leather jacket that got stolen in jail. So we just kind of teased about that. And Lilly May knew about that. She asked me if I'd ever replaced it. No. Not yet.

KELSEY: But that was the first time I had talked about civil rights to anybody out loud. I didn't think anybody would want to know me and what I did. I would want to know what King said and did, what Shuttlesworth said and did, and Woods, and guys like that. But I thought my role was so minor. Why would somebody want to know that?

ANDERSON: And when was that?

KELSEY: That was the first time when Lilly May Fincher asked me to speak to her class.

ANDERSON: Was that in the 70s or 80s?

KELSEY: What year? Oh, gosh. It may have been in the 80s. Yeah.

ANDERSON: So all those years, you were doing what?

KELSEY: Well, I went to school, went to Miles College, graduated. Went to UAB, graduated twice. Got married, had children. I went on with life. I'll tell you another thing that brought some of that back to me. When I started teaching in 1968, I first taught at Hudson Elementary. Hudson was a very large all black elementary school. I had seventh and eighth grade. And I had 12 classes that alternated on the days that they came. Monday, Wednesday, Friday, some of them. 00:31:00Tuesday, Thursday, some of them. And they were very large classes, 39, 40, 41 kids. But that didn't bother me because teaching is what I'd always wanted to do, so I graduated from college. I had a teaching position. I was happy.

KELSEY: The next year, 1969, the Birmingham Board was required to put a certain percentage of black teachers into white schools and white teachers into black schools. And I was sent to McElwain. I had four classes. I had no more than 25, 26 in any class. They came to me in the mornings for instruction and in the afternoon for enrichment. I had microscopes. I had test tubes. I had a lab. At 00:32:00Hudson, I used to go to Miles to get the things to demonstrate to show them a test tube, to show them a microscope. It was a different world. At Hudson during my lunch time, I sat in the halls to make sure children weren't in the halls during my lunch period.

KELSEY: At McElwain, there was a teachers' table, and we had coffee and toast and little special goodies. And I had a prep period where I could sit in the lounge and do my plans or visit with other teachers. It was a world of difference. And that kind of made me a little angry that, here I'm thinking, "This is what school needs to be and looks like when I went to Hudson." And when I went to McElwain, in the same school system, it was like night and day. Before 00:33:00I went to Hudson in 68, the summer of 68, I took a class at UAB. UAB was just an extension center then, and I was completing my teacher certification.

KELSEY: And we took a tour of Phillips High School. I was really physically ill when I walked into Phillips to see the difference in what theirs looked like. And I remembered very clearly what Ullman looked like. I saw all of this art and marble, and it just looked like a whole nother world compared to where I had come from. And I thought, "Wow." I was their commercial art classes. We had art, but it wasn't commercial art. Our vocational classes were like cosmetology and 00:34:00wood work. Their classes were far more advanced in the vocational areas than what we had been exposed to. So I got a firsthand look at how different things were. And yes, it made me angry and it hurt to know that all this time this has been going on, and I didn't even know it.

ANDERSON: And it made you think about what you had marched.

KELSEY: Oh yes, it made me realize the importance of what I had participated in. And it made me respect even more the efforts that the leaders had put forth to change that because it took a lot of courage on their part. Shuttlesworth, King, Woods, those guys had to endure some things in order to get to the point where I 00:35:00could participate and help make some changes.

ANDERSON: Well, I want to give you an opportunity to put anything you want to say. But first, I have one more question about those guys, as you called them, those men of courage. Were you aware at the time? I know you were going to the mass meetings. When Bevel was pulling young people into the annex, first question is: Did that happen at the same time that mass meetings were happening with the adults? And secondly, were you aware of how those guys felt about the children's march?

KELSEY: No. I was not aware of how they felt about the children's march until later when I read some things. What was the first part of your question again?

ANDERSON: You mentioned Bevel taking the young people aside.

KELSEY: There was a point in the mass meetings after all the speaking and singing, they invited people who wanted to be a part of the movement to come down front. And generally, that was aimed at adults. But Bevel stood up and asked for teenagers to come and meet him in the annex. So it was near the close of the meeting, kind of at a time like at our church, we have an invitation to discipleship when the minister gets through preaching, you can join the church. Well, it was an invitation to join the movement. And so he invited us to go to the fellowship hall. Well, it's called the church's annex. But that's what it really was.

ANDERSON: So I think you answered it. But not even just the leaders, but the 00:37:00community as a whole, in the midst of all this excitement and buildup to a children's march, or youth component to all this. What was the feeling in the air in the community?

KELSEY: Well, the people that I was talking to were youth, and we were excited about the opportunity to get together and do something. I was not discussing what I was going to do with adults, so I don't know what they were thinking or feeling. But it was like we had this thing going on and we all knew what the thing was, but we weren't telling anybody who might try to stop us. So there wasn't any discussion there. I would hear in church from the minister, certain 00:38:00announcements not about children, but about the movement. Things were said. But before I became involved, I didn't think that affected me. So I didn't try to pay attention to that.

KELSEY: I didn't really get interested until some things were pointed out to me. And then I had an interest for life. Yeah. One little note that I'll share, my mother for a period, worked at Woodlawn High School in the cafeteria. And it was during the period, probably late 50s, a black student was trying to enroll at Woodlawn High School, and they hung a black effigy out the library window. And 00:39:00my mother took her apron off and walked home from Woodlawn High School to Titusville because she was so angry that they would make that kind of mockery out of what was going on. Years later, probably 90, I guess 97, my brother became the first African American principal at Woodlawn High School. So I was glad my mom lived long enough to know that and to see that. But just a little of my history.

ANDERSON: That's a great story. Are any other stories popping to mind about ... I guess it's hard for me to stay focused thinking about this kiosk that we're going to have. Any stories about the experience of being arrested or demonstrating?

KELSEY: Nothing in particular. I remember being, as I say, intimidated by that police officer, although I was not hit. I wasn't spit on. But we had been told that those were possibilities and that the only thing we could do was sing or pray. We could cover our heads. They told us how to get down and cover our heads if somebody hit us, but we were not to respond. And I knew some kids who decided they did not want to participate if they couldn't fight back. But most of the folk that I knew wanted to be in the movement. That was the thing to do, and so all of my friends, almost, went to jail.

KELSEY: And in jail, I didn't have any fear. There was talk about homosexuality 00:41:00and what was going to happen to the kids. The only thing that I experienced ... Now I guess you need to put this on tape. But one of the ... What do they call them? Trustees. When it was time for me to leave, my parents were downstairs, this woman earlier in the day had commented to me about my legs. And so my girlfriends were saying, "Uh oh. You better not go around her because she's going to get you," and all that. And then when my parents came, they sent her to get me, and I was a little intimidated by that, but she didn't say or do anything. Just took me downstairs.

ANDERSON: I never thought about it until now. But was it sort of an equal number of girls and boys who participated? I think about the call to nonviolence and 00:42:00how difficult that was for something people to accept. It's just a stereotype, but I imagine it would be more difficult for the boys.

KELSEY: Probably was. I don't really remember how many boys because where we were, they were all girls. So I don't know. My brother ended up at the city jail, which is in Titusville. And when he was arrested, it was raining that day. I remember them talking about having to stand out in the yard, the fenced in yard of the jail, and they stood out there a long time. And some of the women in the community made sandwiches and threw them over the fence to feed the kids. But I don't remember any reference to how many there were. I knew there were a lot of them.

ANDERSON: Yeah. I don't know if anyone knows how many of y'all were arrested, 00:43:00how many young people participated that day. I get that call once a year at least. Exactly how many students were arrested? I don't think anyone knows.

KELSEY: I read somewhere that on that first day that there were 2000 kids arrested, but I don't really know.

ANDERSON: I think it would take a real researcher to figure that out. Somebody might do it one day. But I never thought about boys, girls. You've just really honored us by coming and doing this on tape.

KELSEY: Thank you.

ANDERSON: So anything else you would like to say? We don't have to cut it off.

KELSEY: Well, I don't know. If there's something else you can think of, or one of you?

COLEMAN: Thinking back to the days of the demonstrations, some folks, like the incident you just relayed, some folks must've had some horror stories to talk about.

KELSEY: Of course, yeah.

COLEMAN: What do you remember about some of the negative things that happened to other students who were arrested?

KELSEY: Well, I heard that some kids were released in the middle of the night without parent notification, and they had to walk home. And so some of the ministers who were providing protection, driving around, that they were picking kids up, carrying them home. I heard about kids who were hosed and skin broken, hair seared off their head, blouses torn, being pushed down the sidewalk with the force of the water. Heard about kids being bitten by German Shepherd dogs and having to go to the hospital for treatment. So I did not personally 00:45:00experience those things. But certainly, I did hear a lot of talk about people who did.

ANDERSON: Anything else?

KELSEY: Is that it?

ANDERSON: I think we got some good stuff for that kiosk. We really appreciate it.

KELSEY: Okay. Am I going to get to see it?

ANDERSON: I would think so.

KELSEY: Before it goes on the kiosk, I'd like to see it.

ANDERSON: Oh, before.

SPEAKER: You look good.

ANDERSON: Yeah. You look great.

KELSEY: Do I?

ANDERSON: You must've known the whole backdrop and everything before you came because [inaudible 00:45:40].

KELSEY: Look. I matched up.

ANDERSON: It's a perfect outfit for that.

KELSEY: Oh, wow.

SPEAKER: Did you ever try to get your mugshot?

KELSEY: I didn't. My husband tried to get it, and they didn't ...

SPEAKER: They wouldn't turn it.

KELSEY: He ran into a problem trying to get it. And I told him I was going to try to get that because I do know somebody who got a copy of her arrest record. 00:46:00But I don't think she got her mugshot. But I would really like to have that.

SPEAKER: You should be able to get it too.

KELSEY: Yeah.

SPEAKER: Should be.

WAYNE: We tried to get it, but they denied us getting anything on privacy grounds. They say that the individual would have to give permission that it would be released.

KELSEY: Well, I'm going to try to do it because apparently that's the kind of thing they told him. He took the marriage license and everything to say, and they wouldn't do it.

SPEAKER: You should be able to get your own.

WAYNE: At least a copy.

ANDERSON: If they know where it is.

KELSEY: Yeah, yeah. Right. Well, I am going to try that because I would like to have that. Yeah. So it's been interesting. And I guess the reason I don't mind doing, talking about this and doing things like this is because I feel that if 00:47:00you don't know your history, you're likely to repeat it. And I see subtle ways that people try to impose the same kinds of things that were imposed on us early on. And so I guess I'm acutely aware that racism is alive and well. And I don't hate anybody, but I don't have a lot of trust without some investigation.

KELSEY: Sometimes I think I make my husband uncomfortable when we go to restaurants because I see I can be seated before another party, and sometimes they will want to serve the other party before serving me. And I'm quick to raise a ruckus, or to get my purse and get out of there, or ask for a manager. 00:48:00And so I've been accused of being too sensitive. I don't think I'm too sensitive, but I am acutely aware when somebody is not treating me fairly. And I think, I know, now when we participated, it wasn't for special rights. It was for equal rights, just a level playing field. And that was not what was provided. And that's what I've tried to instill in my children. You fight for what is right. I don't want anybody to give you any better advantage or better opportunity, but then don't deny me anything that I'm due.

KELSEY: My children went to Saint Paul's downtown for elementary school. And my daughter used to complain, it was about three black kids in her class, that she 00:49:00would raise her hand and the teacher would ignore her. I said, "But she can't teach that one next to you without you hearing what she's teaching. So you just sit in anyway and raise your hand anyway. Take your notes anyway." They both turned out pretty good. I'm proud of them.

ANDERSON: I'm sure they did.

SPEAKER: Did you mama, after she found out that you were in jail, and your brother, how did she take it and what happened?

KELSEY: I understand she was upset. But I think by the time I was released, she was relieved that nothing had happened. And I told about people and who was there and what we did and things like that to reassure her that it wasn't as bad as she might've heard. So I think she was relieved that everything went okay.

ANDERSON: Sounds to me like she would've participated.

KELSEY: I know she would have.

ANDERSON: If she had been your age, and that she didn't want to be told things because she wanted you to do it.

KELSEY: I am sure she would've been, had she not had nine kids, she might still have participated. She was always a community activist in terms of petitioning city hall to get the streets paved and to get street lights in our neighborhoods and things like that. She was always very active in doing things like that. So I am certain, had she had the opportunity, she would be been a participant as well.

ANDERSON: Sounds like it. Thank you again.

KELSEY: Is that it? Okay.

ANDERSON: Thank you again.

KELSEY: Woo.