James Head Interviewed on June 30, 1995

HANSON: Mr. Head as we record this, this is June 30, 1995, the Southern Baptist just this past week passed a resolution that in effect apologized for the social sins of the past - segregation, slavery. You have been a very active member and participant in Southern Baptist affairs. You're still a Southern Baptist.

HEAD: Yes, I had not been as active in the Southern Baptist affairs as I have local Baptist affairs. I'm still a member of the Southside Baptist Church, have been for 55 years or something like that and I've tried to have some effect on the things that I believed were improper for Christian religious body to be engaged in segregation.

HANSON: Using that word - improper - segregation, slavery, how do you feel about this resolution that's just been passed?

HEAD: It wasn't as big as of surprise to me as it might have been to some people. I'd been on the board of trustees at Samford University for thirty-five, forty years. I was chairman of moving the college from Eastlake to Lakeshore 00:02:00Drive. We had an application shortly after we started building that nice, beautiful campus now from a Black woman who wanted to enter the school, and everybody was extremely nervous about it. We finally after much deliberation and several meetings of different groups, executive committee and academic committee and so forth, the amazing thing was that the trustees met and a peanut farmer from Enterprise, Alabama, red-headed, freckled face said, "Well does her grades meet the academic qualification?" They said, "Yes." He said, "Then what are we talking about? Why don't you admit her?" Now that happened forty years ago.

HANSON: But now with the Southern Baptist forty years later passing this resolution, it took forty years for them to pass a resolution, and yet they had such turmoil to admit the first Black into Samford. How do you feel about it now? And then we'll go back.

HEAD: Well, I feel good but that isn't really the answer to your question. The question was that that particular incident of admitting a Black girl who later became a - well, I'll identify her - she's now been elected director of the American Red Cross Nationally. That's the kind of person that we were debating about admitting to Samford University. The point is that we have gradually, far to slow and to gradually, we've changed. Some people get impatient with change. 00:04:00I do. I'm terribly impatient with change. But I've had to realize that I can't move everyone's conscience at once. I just do the best I can as an ambassador, I try to have a little influence here, whatever I can do. So, the answer to your question is - I think they were very slow, maybe hundred years slow in their resolution but I'm grateful that they passed it. I hope that some of the things that were said by pastors and leaders of the Baptist Southern Convention about what that means for the future will hold true. Because there's a tremendous amount of work yet to be done.

HANSON: For example?

HEAD: Example - housing. We Southern Baptist are the largest Protestant 00:05:00population in the country. And Southern Baptist in Alabama, is a large percentage of the population of this state. We should see to it that we merge our churches where there is an opportunity to merge churches - Black and White - not to eliminate Black churches - not to eliminate White churches, but to make it possible to have interconnection of congregations and exchange of Christian fellowship on a regular basis. Then we should also at the same time see to it about housing. Then at the same time, we should see to it about health conditions. Then we should also at the same time see to it that children in 00:06:00school have the finest opportunities to acquire an education so that they can be self-respecting and receive respect from everyone else regardless of their color or station in life and that they have something else to look forward to in this technical age rather than just playing basketball and football and some of the other great athletic sports in which they excel. That is not the only opportunity that I want to see. I want to see them take a part in everything that goes on in this country.

HANSON: Mr. Head, you've had a full rich life, that has given you numerous awards here in Birmingham...

HEAD: I've been blessed.

HANSON: But you've also been a very courageous man in the environment in which you lived. Now let ask you, let's go back to the beginning. Why were you 00:07:00different than some of the people that you worked with? You ran a business, but you weren't afraid to tie up with someone like A.G. Gaston, you weren't afraid to bring in a Whitney Young. Why not? Certainly, you didn't get applause for that.

HEAD: I learned from my dear mother who lived to be 103 years old and was born and raised in Pickens County, Alabama, which is one of the poorest counties in the entire United States, she was born and raised on a plantation. Well, she was the typical Southern lady, she loved Lucy or Josephine or any Black person that she became personally associated with. She loved them, she thought, and I've heard her say it many times, handed down from the good Lord. But as a group, she 00:08:00hated them. Now what in the Heaven's name can cause a thing like that to exist in a human mind. I don't know. It may have been fear. I'm afraid that a great deal of what we've suffered from was just fear. She lived to be 103, and I worshiped her. She lost her husband when she was young, she had four children. She moved back to Alabama, that's why I'm here, in 1914 with four children under 15 years old and on her own with a little bit of insurance. Not much they didn't have much in those days and she raised those four children. So I say I'm 00:09:00blessed, okay, but I was subjected or I learned from her how easy it was to be prejudice, I hate to use the term bigotry, I learned at her knee how this could happen in an individual.

Love those that she knew and was associated with came in contact with frequently, loved them. But hated - that may be too severe, feared may not be adequate, but somewhere along the line she was a typical southern person that wanted to have really nothing to do with those that she wasn't closely associated with.

HANSON: How did you get up to be different? Were your siblings different, or 00:10:00just you?

HEAD: I had some early experiences. I had to go to work because of the war, took my brothers off to the war. So, I had to go carrying papers and cutting grass - that's fine, it was a great thing for me. I met a lot of people that I still know but I was taking on a new job in 1923, and a couple of years after I had started out working I tried to cross 1st Avenue and 20th street at noon one day. Someone said, "There's a parade coming." So, I stopped. Well the Ku Klux Klan had a parade that day. They claimed that they had 7000 people in the parade, I don't doubt it. They also claimed that they had seven judges off of the city and 00:11:00county court benches, I had no way of disputing that. It horrified me because I looked upon the Ku Klux Klan as an alien organization in this country and it made a tremendous impression on me as a young man that this city could literally stop and watch 7000 people parade in white sheets and hoods.

They claimed that they had every judge on the bench of the city and county in that parade. Well, as I read history and I read books about Hugo Black and others it's pretty well confirmed that what they said in that parade was true. Then a little bit later I remember that the Ku Klux Klan or those who they 00:12:00influenced out in Pinson Valley, when that was nothing but a dairy farm, all big dairies and Dr. Dowling who was the health officer of Jefferson County was struggling with Typhoid Fever that was killing babies by the dozens every summer. He finally said, "The problem is the milk.

Our milk is contaminated. I am going to inspect all the dairy farms." He did. He told them they would have to clean up the dairy farms if they were going to sell milk in this county. He as the health officer would not permit it - them operating- until they cleaned up the dairy farms. Ms. Hanson, they took him out one night tied him to a tree stripped his clothes off tarred and feathered him 00:13:00and gave him twenty-four hours to get out of town.

HANSON: Because he called for cleaner milk?

HEAD: Because he threatened to close their dairies if they didn't clean up their barns.

HANSON: Were the members of the Klan dairy farmers?

HEAD: We don't know it positively that it was members of the Klan. I say it was people that the Klan influenced because I had no proof of that but that's a fact. Later on, it is a fact that historically two young men in Eastlake wanted to become members of the Klan. In order to prove that they were deserving of being a member of the Klan. They had to perform some kind of an act that would impress the Klan Chapter that they were worthy of being members. So, they went out and the first Black man that they saw was a young man. They hit him in the 00:14:00head, they castrated him and they went back to the Klan headquarters to prove that they were worthy of being a member. I want to tell you something, Ms. Hanson, many young men would be influenced by those kind of episodes in their young life.

HANSON: Why?

HEAD: Well, I think they would consider it inhuman. They would consider it anything but Christian. They would consider it something that they didn't want to be a party of and I'm convinced that a great many rebelled against that but they were afraid to say something about it for fear they'd lose their job. They'd become one of those agitators that was stirring up things or whatever. They were afraid and from that point on I began to recognize that fear was a 00:15:00real important ingredient to cause people to act as they did towards their fellow citizens.

HANSON: Why weren't you afraid Mr. Head?

HEAD: I'm not sure about that. I'd had a lot of people call it courage, who use that term. I don't believe that, I don't believe it was that. I believe it was something that I inherited that told me that there are certain things that are wrong that you aren't going to have anything to do with and if you can prevent it you must do it. I don't know whether that is religious influence, I'm not sure about that. All I know is that I'm grateful that I have it and whoever gave it to me, my mother or the good Lord, I'm very grateful for it. Because I enjoy 00:16:00life I enjoy people, I haven't missed a meal. Oh, I've had employers tell their employees, "Don't do business with that fellow." I've had boycotts. I want to get off the subject of me.

HANSON: Okay, let's talk about the climate. You are part of that time Mr. Head, that's the beauty of it and yes indeed you are a man of courage you might just as well live with that accolade because it's going to hang with you to eternity. But let's talk a little bit about that time that the Klan marched, and of course, it was when Hugo Black marched with that, I think he even said he did, and you saw it. It changed you. Did the newspapers talk about it? Was there any editorials against it? Who did you find that you could talk to that agreed with you?

HEAD: I think that's a very important point. Victor Hanson, Sr., had no sympathy 00:17:00for any of that kind of doings in that community. I went to one of my very good friends and I'm not going to deal with individuals now because I don't want their family to think that I'm criticizing a good friend - deceased - that was a good friend of mine. When I went to one of these important newspaper people who we considered ourselves close friends, I said, "Look, we can't tolerate this. For Heaven's sake, come out with an editorial, change your news copy do anything that you can to expose to this population and its readers, how horrible you think this is, you know it is. You have an obligation to do that." He said, 00:18:00"What a minute Jim. You're going to have to quit being idealistic and become realistic." I said, "What in the hell are you talking about." He said, "We've tried something like this a number of years ago when Mr. Victor Hanson was here. We lost 40,000 subscribers in the first two months. We resolved then that we were never going to be a damn fool about that subject again. We are not going to get involved in that.

We'll report the incident, but we are not going to editorialize, and we're not going to preach to the population and our subscribers as to what they ought to do." Now that sounds strange now because that wouldn't happen today. I went to some of my good friends that were in the retail business. I said, "Look this is 00:19:00going to kill this city. It's going to kill your business." "No, now wait a minute Jim, you're off on the wrong foot. We cannot take a part of this. We cannot change what you say we should change about trying on clothes or lunch counters." Even a grand friend of mine that was, again I'm not going to mention his name, I don't want to embarrass his family, head of one of the largest department stores, he and I were golfing buddies, we went off on trips together, he said, "Jim, it's true we have a lunch counter and we don't allow Blacks to eat there." But he said, "Look for Heaven's sake don't bring this thing up anymore. I value our friendship, but we can't afford to lose 20,000 customers and that's what would happen."

It was fear. I went to another one, same thing, fear of what they were going to 00:20:00lose, what would happen if they took a stand and buddy I want to tell you, if I had any gumption that reinforced it because it became realizing that this thing became a cancer in the whole community. The ministers, I went to one of the most beloved ministers and I said, "Doctor, look, you head one of the most prestigious churches in the state. You have more real estate and everything, in Heaven's name, why don't you say something about this ugly thing that is happening in our community. That our members want to hear from you." "Jim, I don't dare do that. I understand what you're saying but I don't dare do that. If 00:21:00I do, I'll lose half of our membership."

Betty, this may sound ridiculous to you, but it was a fact. The lawyers didn't want to speak out for fear they would lose clients, they knew what the law was, they knew what was going to happen, they knew that school segregation and all other segregation were absolutely contrary to this country's concept. But they didn't want to be the ones to speak out for fear that they'd lose their clients.

HANSON: My question to you is, you during all of this were very outspoken, seeing people, working behind the scenes as well as taking a few public stands, still ran a business. Did you lose clients?

HEAD: I have wondered about that myself. I've almost taken a poll. Why was this 00:22:00customer loyal to me in spite of that? They didn't have that fear. I didn't lose a single retail department store customer or friend. They lost their business, but I didn't lose their friendship. Finally, most of them died off, I lost them. I did have some boycotts; I did have some handouts on the streets but I'm making a mistake I want to quit talking about my experiences. Look, we're beyond that now.

HANSON: I know we are, but this is a oral history and it's necessary. I know it makes you uncomfortable, I won't dwell on all of those things right now or your 00:23:00role necessarily, but we must understand a little bit the climate in which I first knew you for example in Birmingham. How did you get to know A. G. Gaston and why?

HEAD: That's an interesting thing because I spoke at their invitation to a group of young Black people who were interested in getting Whitney Young to come to Birmingham to help reorganize the Urban League that had been eliminated because certain people threatened to withhold their support from the community chest if the Urban League was a part of it. So, I agreed to meet with them. One of the young men that I met, I'm sorry I can't recall his name, I wish I could, he was 00:24:00a student, I've forgotten at Miles College or where, one day after the Korean War, this was in the 50s, he stopped me on 20th Street and said, "Mr. Head, can I speak to you a minute?" I said, "Sure." And I recognized him, and I said, "How in the world are you?" He said, "Well, I'm fine. I've been off to Korea." "Oh, I'm glad you're back. You look fine." He said, "I feel good." But he said, "Let me ask you a question." He said, "Over in Korea, I was in a company of a bunch of Alabama boys, White and Black.

We exchanged cigarettes and cups of coffee and everything else in the fox holes and some of us got wounded, some of us got killed but we were buddies. Real sure 00:25:00enough buddies." I listened to him standing there on 20th street and he told me about his experiences for a while then he said, "But when I got back home, I see some of those on the street and they don't want to stop and even say 'Hi'. They don't want to be seen with me." I said, "Why?" "I don't know unless they're just afraid that somebody will see them talking to a nigger." Well, that touched me. I thought what in the devil, we're sending a boy over to fight in Korea. He got along fine with his contemporary soldiers in the fox holes, they swapped and everything and he comes back home and they want even stop to say, "Hello, how are you getting along buddy?" - for fear. So, I went to one of the downtown 00:26:00churches and I went in to talk to the bishop.

The bishop says, "Mr. Head, I don't want to get involved. You're asking me if we can hold a meeting in our church to invite some people to come down and discuss this. I'm sorry, I don't want to get involve." I was successful, however, in contacting one of his younger rectors and through him I got permission - he got permission - to use the bishop's study to invite some people for a discussion of what was wrong, and what could be done about it. I approached one of the life insurance company executives and he said, "Jim, I love you. You and I are good friends but our company operates under the laws of the state legislature and I 00:27:00don't dare, they could put me out of business. I'm not going to get involved." I said, "I understand. I'm sorry, I wish you would." I went to others, pretty much same story. "Look Jim, I'm not saying you're wrong, but count me out. My board (now we're talking about his board of directors) would say "what's the matter with you have you lost your mind? You're getting involved in this thing.'" So, I finally found out that Sid Smyre and his wife (and he was a fellow Rotarian) had gone to Tokyo, Japan, for the International Rotary Convention. He walked out of his hotel that morning and there was a paper with headlines being sold on the 00:28:00steps of the hotel that buses bearing freedom riders had been raided in Birmingham on Mother's Day and they had been brutally...

HANSON: Beaten and the bus was later burned.

HEAD: And that so embarrassed him, so the newspapers said because they published that in the Birmingham paper. It embarrassed him. I heard about it the next Wednesday at the Rotary Meeting that he had been embarrassed in Tokyo by a newspaper. They were blaming a newspaper, they don't blame anybody else, just blaming the newspaper for publishing that and making a big to do about it. But I knew that he was probably embarrassed, truthfully. Though I knew Sid Smyre was a 00:29:00very powerful state senator and that he was raised out in Milton and he was undoubtedly a member of the White Citizen Council...

HANSON: I was going to say that, yes.

HEAD: Or some organization that'd say, "We'll put up $600 a piece and send them back to Africa, if that's okay." So I called Sid Smyre, and again I was trading a little bit unfairly on my affiliation as a fellow Rotarian. I'm surprise they didn't kick me out.

HANSON: I was going to ask you that. You ended up being president.

HEAD: But they hadn't. They've changed too Betty.

HANSON: They have.

HEAD: They wouldn't have a woman member. Now we have a number of outstanding women. They wouldn't have anyone but a White Caucasian male. That's all changed now.

HANSON: Go back to trading on you.

HEAD: Now to get back to Sid Smyre. So, I went to Dr. Gaston and I told him what was going on in the church and that we had these people and they had stories that we could hardly believe. Stories like a young Black woman, 18 years old, or 19, went up to register at the courthouse and the registrar said, "What's your name? Okay. What's you address? Are you married?" "No." "Do you have any children?" An insulting sort of a record asking a person on voter registration, "Are you married?" "No." Do you have any children?" So, I told Dr. Gaston about this and he didn't know that. He said, "Well, Jim, I didn't know that. I know an awful lot of things that are bad, but I didn't know about that." I said, "Did 00:31:00you know that a Black man or women cannot even go up in the upper floors of any of the office building in downtown Birmingham to call on their attorney or to pay a payment at the bankruptcy court [which was then up in the Greg Nelson Building]?

For any reason whatsoever, they cannot ride a passenger elevator. And if the freight elevator is hauling trash or furniture or whatever, they're going to have to wait until it's all done before they can get upstairs." He kind of bristled, he said, "Yes, I did know that, but I had forgotten it." I said, "If I make an appointment with Sid Symre would you go with me?" "Sure." So, I made the appointment. I called him, I said, "Sid I want to come see you." "Alright when." I said, "You name it." He did. Dr. Gaston, I picked him up, we wouldn't go in 00:32:00the front door, we went up the alley and went in the back door because we didn't want to embarrass Sid with any of his friend or customers or employees. We sat down and we told him these things. I reminded him he was embarrassed in Tokyo, I said, "I think Sid you might be embarrassed to learn something I honestly believe you don't know about." I told him about this.

He said, "Are you telling me the straight dope or are you just putting on a show? You mean that they can't ride an elevator except the freight elevator in the Brown Marx Building or the Empire Building the Woodward Building, the John A. Hand Building, the Frank Nelson Building?" I said, "That's correct. And you the president of the Birmingham Realty Company and you own the Frank Nelson Building and maybe some of the others." He wrote it down on a pad. I told him 00:33:00about the restrooms and the drinking fountains at the courthouse and I said, "You are the state senator from this county." It took about 30 or 40 minutes I guess. He said, "Give me two days." I said, "Whatever you want. You were nice enough to see us, thank you. You gave us an opportunity to bring you something. It maybe astonishing." He said, "It is." In two days, it had all been wiped out.

HANSON: Not the drinking fountain, however.

HEAD: What's that?

HANSON: Not the drinking fountains, just the elevators, you mean.

HEAD: Just the elevators, the drinking fountains, the restrooms at the county courthouse and instructions to the people who interviewed people at the voter registration thing, "Don't you dare ask any insulting questions of anyone."

HANSON: Mr. Head, how did Sid Symre, aside from embarrassment, manage the group that got together to meet with King after the marches? Were you part of that group?

HEAD: No.

HANSON: Why?

HEAD: Because Sid Symre didn't want an activist. Unfortunately, that was the term that was applied to me by a lot of people. He wanted to talk from his level to his compatriots of people of like kind who had been fighting this thing. He wanted to appeal to them on a strictly economic basis that we cannot to afford a continuation of this thing. If it does, it's going to get worse. It's gonna get cancerous. We're going to be the laughingstock of this country. We - remember 00:35:00now he was the president of the Birmingham Realty Company - and I'm not saying he did anything from a monetary standpoint alone. I honestly believe, I'm convinced of it, that he had a change of heart and it may have been in Tokyo not in Birmingham but he was committed from that point on to try and persuade businessmen as I had tried to influence him by saying, "This is wrong and it's all going to slap us in the face in business and if we ever try to get into Heaven it's going to clobber us." Well, I don't know whether he took to that but anyway in 48 hours he said, "You give me two days." And in 48 hours, he 00:36:00delivered. Which shows and confirms the fact that just a few people could run the town and had been running the town for generations.

HANSON: Yes, someone said was what Birmingham needed was 12 good funerals and maybe we could start over again. Did you hear that?

HEAD: Yes, of course. They would have to be selective but about 12 would be that right number.

HANSON: Twelve people actually controlled this town, how things happened, who got where...

HEAD: Maybe fewer than that but be generous and say twelve.

HANSON: Why didn't they come down on your neck?

HEAD: They did.

HANSON: Tell me about that.

HEAD: I don't want to get into that. That's too darn personal. That doesn't really have any bearing on anything...

HANSON: You see, I think Mr. Head, in doing an oral history of our town, we have to look a little bit at the climate that we all were part of and that climate 00:37:00produced change.

HEAD: Look Betty, Birmingham - remember this now - was a young city. By comparison with Memphis or Nashville or Atlanta or Jacksonville or New Orleans, it was a young, young city. Remember also that it would not have existed except that two railroads crossed, and they wouldn't have crossed except for the fact that we had iron ore, coal and limestone. The only place on the face of the God's green Earth where you find the three essentials for manufacturing steel in one spot. Okay, because that happened, who was going to develop that. The farmers [inaudible] and up and down the various valleys? They had no more ideas 00:38:00than the man on the moon, they didn't even know that that was iron ore. They didn't know that there was coal down there or limestone or anything, they were interested in crops. So, people from elsewhere, Tennessee, Montgomery, Pittsburgh, New York, Chicago, Cleveland, heard about this and said hey wait a minute. You mean to tell me that there are minerals and all in the South, in the cotton land?

The first thing you know, Birmingham was booming. Booming with what? Those ingredients. Who caused it to boom? People from elsewhere. And what few investors from Tennessee and Montgomery and around the South that put up a few dollars, they couldn't sustain their needs so they sold out to the big money 00:39:00interests of Pittsburgh, U.S. Steel, so on so forth all over the country and look I'm not begrudging all of that because some of that brought some great blessings, the Irelands, they were not natives here, they came from Ohio and you couldn't find finer people. They created Vulcan Materials out of nothing. They created Kirkwood on the river, they were generous people. But the curse that we inherited was this. Finally, U.S. Steel was the owner of the principle industrial development and they had plants in Gary, Indiana and Pittsburgh and elsewhere and they only bought this down here for protection against any 00:40:00competitive thing against their other investments.

So, they inaugurated Pittsburgh Plus, which meant if you sold steel out of Birmingham to Texas or California or any place, they had to be the price of Pittsburgh plus the freight from Pittsburgh to that destination. They sent men down here said, "Look go down there an run that mill and be sure that it makes money." Most of the people that they sent down were only in interested in staying here until they retired and could move to California or Martha's Vineyard or Florida or someplace. They had no roots down in the soil. We didn't have any families back in those days that had any deep roots into the soil of this community. Later we acquired just a few like Crawford Johnson, who stumbled 00:41:00onto Coca Cola and made a lot of money. He was originally a Baptist, he helped save Samford University that was bankrupt. They couldn't pay their faculty salaries, they couldn't buy the coal to run the furnace, they couldn't do anything.

He said, "I'll bail it out if you'll let me get Howell Davis to be president." HANSON: It was tit for tat.

HEAD: There was one exception to the people that came down here from U.S. Steel and that was George Gordon Crawford. He came down and he was horrified. He said, "These shanties out here are a disgrace to human beings." So he said, "Build me 00:42:00some homes. The company will own them, we'll rent them, we'll take the rent out of the paychecks. Build me a commissary. Build me a hospital." And he built Lloyd Nolan Hospital right over the hill there. Build me a school. It's too bad that he couldn't stay here. Sixty-five caught up and he had to move, but he was a great humanitarian as well as the president of Tennessee Coal, Iron and Railway Company. But he was the exception to the rule, the majority of them you couldn't remember their names.

HANSON: But they controlled the town. Someone has written about Birmingham, that it was a city of overseers.

HEAD: It was run just like a plantation. They owned the company store, you 00:43:00bought from the company store, they owned the sheriff, there never would have been a Bull Conner except for TCI.

HANSON: You think so? You really believe that? That they supported Bull, they threw money at him, they got him elected.

HEAD: I'm not the only one that said that.

HANSON: Oh, of course not, I've read it. I just want it on the record.

HEAD: Of course, I believe it because I ran into it. I was appointed chairman of the victory bonds drive for Jefferson County at the end of the war, 1945. I went to Bull Conner who was then city police commissioner at city hall and I said, Bull I've been appointed so forth. I said it's important that we not allow our citizens to squander their savings because they couldn't buy anything. They couldn't buy a radio, etc. I said, "They have fortunately been forced to save 00:44:00some money. Now we don't want to make a bunch of monkeys out of ourselves by beating up the price of the first radio that comes along, the first automobile, and so forth. We're going to put this in the victory bonds savings, it'll earn interest, better interest, until production gets the price down sensibly.

Now I said. "In order to do that I've got to put on some kind of a gimmick, and I've come up with an idea that I'm going to have them roll out the barrel and for everyone that buys a bond. We'll give them a stub and we put the other stub into the barrel, and we roll it down 20th Street. We'll make a big hoopla every day at noon and people will know what this is all about and we'll draw them at the Alabama Theatre, and blah, blah, blah. He said, "Uh-hu, you know, Head (he 00:45:00always called me Head) that's a raffle and that's against the law. But I'll tell you something, if they arrest you, just let me know, because damn sure I'll get you out right quick or I'll get in the jail with you." You can say, oh well, he was trying to be nice to you and he was trying to do something for the war effort blah, blah, blah. No, what he was doing was showing me that whatever in the hell needed to be done that he wanted to get done, he didn't have to ask anybody, he just go ahead and do it.

HANSON: There were a lot people in this town, however, I can remember from my first arrival here that supported Bull Conner either privately or publicly not just TCI.

HEAD: That isn't any mystery Betty. They supported him for three reasons, not 00:46:00because they were proud of him, not because they thought he was a great commissioner or police chief or anything like that, but first, they either worked for TCI or they sold or they sold them insurance or they sold them supplies, blah, blah, blah. Or some of their relatives worked for TCI and they weren't about to do anything that would cause anybody to say, "Don't do business with that fellow. He's not one of us." That's why I say it was a plantation operation.

HANSON: Bull was the overseer, the one that cracked the whip.

HEAD: Sure. They could say to Bull, "Look buddy, we've got 38,000 employees. You run for commissioner we guarantee your election." I'm going to prove that to you. I was state chairman for the Democratic party for the John Kennedy campaign.

Me, a Baptist, finance not the campaign, financial campaign, a Baptist supporting a Catholic candidate for president in the state of Alabama and chairman of the finance committee asking people to put up money. What's the matter with you have you lost your bearings? No. That didn't enter the picture with the people that appointed me the executive committee of the Democratic party. Well sir, I learned something. We raised the largest sum of money in the state of Alabama that's ever been raised for a Democratic candidate for president. In spite of why.

HANSON: Exactly, why?

HEAD: Simply because the personality of that man and what he said to the Baptist 00:48:00and other preachers in a convention meeting in Dallas or Houston, I've forgotten which, about religion and the presidency and this country plus the fact that this country was ready, youth wise, returned from the war. Here was a war veteran, youth, everything fell into place, and the religious prejudice had to take a sidestep. So, he carried the state of Alabama. We raised the largest sum of money that's ever been raised in Alabama for a Democratic candidate and people were behind that but here's the reason, and I'll get off of it right quick. I went up to the inauguration and one of my close friends was running a 00:49:00company that was a tenant of the city of Birmingham and he and I were close, and our wives went with us...

HANSON: Go ahead.

HEAD: I'm talking too much.

HANSON: No, you're not, your saying exactly what I want to say. I should have turned this over. I can't get this in. Go ahead the tape is rolling. So, you and your wife went up to the inauguration.

HEAD: We weren't flying back in those days you know; we went up on the train a federal judge was on the train with us, we stopped at the [inaudible] hotel. It snowed, it was a blizzard, now I'm back on the story.

HANSON: Okay.

HEAD: Bull Conner called this friend of mine who as I say was a tenant of the city of Birmingham, in other words, he was renting, well, he rented the Hayes Aircraft Hangers, which the city owns. In other words, the city got them from the government after the war. He called this friend of mine and said, "I want to talk to you." He said, "Well okay Bull, come on up. Jim Head is here." I said, I'll get out. He said, "No, you stay here." Bull came in and said, "I want to talk you about one of your employees." "What about him?" "We want to run him for mayor." He said, "What are you talking about?" He [Bull] said, "We're talking 00:51:00about Art Hayes. Art Hayes is a son of a minister - Methodist minister - he's a former veteran and he's been on the FBI and we want to run him for mayor." Lou Jeffries said, "Wait a minute. He's in charge of our labor relations." "I know we know all about what he does but we want to run him for mayor, and I have a guarantee that he will be elected."

Now in my opinion the guarantee was, TCI said if that's who you want go get him. We'll guarantee you that you'll be elected. After all, they had 38,000 employees and those employees had friends and customers and bought insurance from people and automobiles from others, and groceries from others and all that. So, the 00:52:00influence was that it's a plantation operation. We kind of poo-pooed the idea for about 30 minutes and they wouldn't take any poo-pooing at all. He said, "Look, let's don't waste time. We want him to run for mayor." Well, the conclusion was okay. "Have you talked to him? "No, but I want you to talk to him right now. You call him up and tell him that it's okay for us to talk to him about running for mayor. So, he did right then, and you could tell that the fellow on the other side was dumb founded surprised and didn't know anything about it. He said, "Well, let Bull talk to you." So, Bull said, "It's all set. We're going to run you for mayor." He did and he was elected without any problem.

HANSON: I remember when they tried to get rid of that triumph very well. I 00:53:00remember when they put up Tom King.

HEAD: That's right. Do you remember what they did to Tom King?

HANSON: Let's talk about that.

HEAD: Well, I don't.they sort of, I hate to use the term, but they brutalized him. They

set him up. Tom King was a good dependable deeply religious deeply concerned citizen and would have made a great administrator of the city. But that wasn't what they wanted, and it was simple. It was so simple that it could be done in 30 minutes in Washington, D.C. over the telephone line and that was it. There wasn't nothing else to it. One minute he was working for a company, the next 00:54:00minute he was candidate for mayor of the city of Birmingham, guaranteed that he'd be elected. Now how much more do you want in the way of a plantation operation than that.

HANSON: So, all of this fit together didn't it? It was to the segregation issue, the labor strike that took place in the city, the city owned by 8 good men, not even good men, so it was owned. So, Mr. Head, you were sort of fighting wind mills in a way and yet they named you man of the year.

HEAD: Well, I'll tell you, there's always been something like that, there's always been something like that Betty. I don't want to be quoting paraphrased things but honestly all that is necessary for evil to exist is for some good people to just not do a damn thing about it and evil will take care of it 00:55:00without any trouble quickly. And yet if the good people who ever they are ever decide look I've had enough of this I don't sleep well, I think about this it disturbs me, I don't won't my children to look back and say what in the hell did you do about that daddy or granddaddy? And I'm not going to be able to say anything about it. So it does eventually change. The only thing is I don't know why the good Lord puts up with it for so long waiting for it to change. I really don't understand that.

HANSON: Mr. Head, thank you. You've led a wonderful life.

HEAD: I have, I've been blessed. What more could an individual want than a fine 00:56:00family, good health, and know Betty, I have a world of friends you know who unfortunately most of my good friends that I had back in the 40s and 50s and 30s, have passed away. They're no longer here. But let me tell you something. The greatest thing that's ever happened to me is that their sons and daughters who have been off to college have come back and they are entirely different people.

They don't have that fear. They are not going to be handcuffed and shackled by those kinds of thoughts and those kinds of prejudices. They have learnt something differently because they've lived with other people under different 00:57:00circumstances and they don't believe that the things were ever necessary. Maybe that's why the Baptists said look we're really apologetic for what's happened. I don't make any big to do about that. They're going to have to demonstrate to satisfy me that they mean exactly what their words. That's what the pastor who presented the resolution said, that words are not sufficient. It will depend on our actions. Well I agree. They're going to have to show actions and I'm sure they will.

HANSON: Thanks Mr. Head.