Rev. Jerry Green

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Rev. Jerry Green for the Oral History Project 00:01:00of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. I am Dr. Horace Huntley, today is April 20, 1995 and we are at Miles College.

Thank you Rev. Green for coming out and sitting with us today.

GREEN: You're welcome.

HUNTLEY: Let me just start by asking some general kinds of questions. Where were you born and what year?

GREEN: I was born 1910, February 18.

HUNTLEY: Where?

GREEN: Out in a place called Woodlawn, but the place was Groveland.

HUNTLEY: Okay. So that's Birmingham.

GREEN: Yes Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have?

GREEN: I had another brother and two sisters. I don't have any now.

HUNTLEY: Okay. So you are the only one that's left?

GREEN: Yes. I was the puniest one and I am the only one left in the immediate family.

HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your parents. Where were they from?

GREEN: Pell City.

HUNTLEY: In Pell City, Alabama which is what, about a half hour from Birmingham?

GREEN: Yes. Well, it's Pell City but they were born in Cropwell. That's not far from there.

HUNTLEY: Yes. Just outside of Pell City. It's in St. Clair County, though?

GREEN: Yes. That's right.

HUNTLEY: Okay. What kind of education did your parents have? Did they go to school at all, that you remember?

GREEN: Yes, I guess just a general education.

HUNTLEY: What about you, how much education did you have?

GREEN: I finished high school.

HUNTLEY: Okay. Did you finish at Industrial High School?

GREEN: Yes. It was Industrial then. They call it Parker now, but it was 00:03:00Industrial then.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Industrial High School?

GREEN: They had day school and night school?

HUNTLEY: Is that right? Was it a big school?

GREEN: Yes it was a big school. It was the biggest one in Birmingham at that time?

HUNTLEY: The only one in Birmingham is that right? Well do you remember Fes Whatley?

GREEN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Is that right? So you knew Fes Whatley?

GREEN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Well, were you in the band?

GREEN: No. But I know he played -- Tuxedo Junction.

HUNTLEY: What is your most fond memory of Industrial High School? Were there fun times or tough times?

GREEN: Yes. Parker, let's see now, he was a little fat man.

HUNTLEY: Okay. He was the principal?

GREEN: Yes. They buried him up there in that Jew cemetery.

HUNTLEY:

What did you do after you finished high school?

GREEN: What did I do?

HUNTLEY: Yes, sir.

GREEN: I worked for myself.

HUNTLEY: Well, what did you do?

GREEN: I was a painter.

HUNTLEY: Oh, so you painted for yourself. Okay. So you started your own business?

GREEN: Yes, I was an interior -- I worked at one place. I didn't start my business. I worked for [inaudible] & White. And South Town at 75 apartments over there on 23rd Street South. So about the time I got through with them, it would be time to go back over them again.

HUNTLEY: So that's what you started to do. Then you were a professional painter.

GREEN: You might say that.

HUNTLEY: How long did you do that?

GREEN: Around twenty years.

HUNTLEY: For about twenty years. Okay. How old were you when you got married?

GREEN: When I got married?

HUNTLEY: Yes, sir.

GREEN: I was about twenty 'cause my wife died a little over two years afterward.

HUNTLEY: What community did you live in?

GREEN: I lived in the Groveland area but it was Woodlawn and Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: You've always lived in that part of town?

GREEN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Oh, so you are very well known in that area then. How would you describe the community? Who lived there, the racial make-up, the occupations of people?

GREEN: Well, White people began to run when Black moved in as usual.

HUNTLEY: But at the time that you lived there, in the days before the Movement, were there whites that lived in your community?

GREEN: A few. Some said they wasn't going to move.

HUNTLEY: So some stayed?

GREEN: Yes. It was kind of mixed up then, so they said they weren't going to move. Some of them left.

HUNTLEY: What kind of occupations did people have that live there? What kind of work did they do?

GREEN: Well they did different things. Different kind of jobs. Pay wasn't much then.

HUNTLEY: What was your community's relationship to the Birmingham Police Department? How did the community get along with the police department?

GREEN: Yes, well, you got along pretty good. It's always one good one and one 00:07:00bad one.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever have any problems with them yourself?

GREEN: No, I did not.

HUNTLEY: Were you a member of any community organizations before you got involved with the Alabama Christian Movement? What about the NAACP?

GREEN: Yes. I was in it but they banned it. That's when Fred organized the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. Because they couldn't come in the churches. That's why he organized in the church, because they banned it out of Alabama.

HUNTLEY: The NAACP?

GREEN: Yes they banned it.

HUNTLEY: Okay. Have you been involved with the NAACP?

GREEN: Yes all of us were.

HUNTLEY: Okay. What did you do? What did the NAACP do at that time? Were they registering people to vote?

GREEN: Registering people to vote, yes.

HUNTLEY: Were you a voter at the time, yourself?

GREEN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember when you went to register to vote.

HUNTLEY: Yes, old big White fellows up there. He said you can't vote. And there was a little White boy over there, he let him vote. He told me to come back in three days. I went back the next day. He say "nigger, didn't I tell you not to come back down here." Then, Judge Barren, he was living in that same apartment. I don't know what he had on that piece of paper, 'cause I had a sheepskin coat and I just pulled it out and handed it to him.

HUNTLEY: What did you pull out and hand to him?

GREEN: Envelope. I don't know what was in it.

HUNTLEY: Where was the envelope from?

GREEN: Judge Barron. And so he said "Hold up your hands." Swear me in right then.

HUNTLEY: Didn't ask you any questions?

GREEN: Didn't ask me nothing. I don't know what was in the envelope. I wanted to look in but I didn't.

HUNTLEY: You got the envelope from a judge?

GREEN: Yes. He lived in that same apartment I told you that I worked.

HUNTLEY: Oh, that you were painting. And he gave you a letter to give to the --

GREEN: I told him what happened. That evening I met him and I told him what happened. And he said come to my apartment in a few minutes. I went up there in a few minutes and I had a big sheepskin coat and he just give me an envelope. It was sealed up.

HUNTLEY: So evidently the letter said that you must have been a reputable citizen?

GREEN: Bet the letter said "Let this nigger vote, I believe." I don't know, but anyway there, he swore me in.

HUNTLEY: Were you alone that day?

GREEN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Nobody went with you?

GREEN: No.

HUNTLEY: So you were voting after that then?

GREEN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: You were a registered voter?

GREEN: Yes. He said "You know some big people in town, don't you?"

GREEN: I said "I sure do."

HUNTLEY: Tell me then how, and why did you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement?

GREEN: Because they banned the NAACP.

HUNTLEY: Okay. And you thought it was necessary to continue it through the organization of the Alabama Christian Movement?

GREEN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Were you at their first meeting that Fred called?

GREEN: Yes. Robert Alford was pastor of old Sardis, up on the hill.

HUNTLEY: That's where the first meeting was held?

GREEN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Tell me what was a meeting like? What happened at the meetings?

GREEN: Well, they liked to have to throw some of them out. Some of them old fellows. They didn't want it, you know.

HUNTLEY: They didn't want the Movement?

GREEN: No. They threw out two or three of them. It was on TV.

HUNTLEY: Because they were against what Fred was trying to do?

GREEN: Yes. Robert Alford was pastoring old Sardis at that time.

HUNTLEY: Was he in favor?

GREEN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: But there were some there that simply was not in favor of the Movement getting started?

GREEN: You had some, but the majority was in favor.

HUNTLEY: What was your role in the Movement? Were you one of those men who helped to guard the houses?

GREEN: Yes, I guarded houses. Shuttlesworth house and Phifer's house, Rev. Phifer.

HUNTLEY: Tell me, how did that get started, the guarding of the houses?

GREEN: Well, they had to have somebody to guard them because they were talking about bombing them. And they did bomb them and knocked that window out. There were four cross seats under the window over here. So when he said "Johnny L. Lewis," when he said "Hit the ground." Everybody hit the ground and covered up their head. And that glass just shattered all around them.

HUNTLEY: You mean you were at the church?, You're talking about the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church, when it was bombed?

GREEN: No, not Sixteenth Street -- Bethel.

HUNTLEY: Oh, when Bethel was bombed?

GREEN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Okay. And you were there at that time?

GREEN: Yes. And we all stonewalled. We hit the ground.

HUNTLEY: And that's the only thing that saved you, you hit the ground?

GREEN: I don't know whether it saved me, but we hit the ground. And I think Johnny L. Lewis, now, I think he's dead.

HUNTLEY: So how was that organized, the guarding of the homes and the churches? Was that well organized or did you just go out there when you got ready?

GREEN: No. It was well organized. We knew who was going to be where and what time they was going to be and how many hours they were going to be and the next one knew when to come on like that -- in shifts.

HUNTLEY: How long did you do that? Once a week or --

GREEN: No. Every night.

HUNTLEY: Every night? So you would get off your job and then you would go on to someplace where you would protect someone's home, or the church?

GREEN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Who were some of the other men that were involved with that effort?

GREEN: Who was the other?

HUNTLEY: Who were some of the other men that were helping you to do that?

GREEN: Yes. Some women too. What that lady name? It was some women too.

HUNTLEY: They helped? Women helped to guard the homes? Is that right?

GREEN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Well, were you armed?

GREEN: Shorty was the treasurer. No, we were not armed.

HUNTLEY: You were not armed? Didn't have guns? You just sat watching?

GREEN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Okay. Tell me a little about Mr. Shortridge? What was his responsibility?

GREEN: Shorty was the treasurer and those women used to go on with him. him own. Boy that was a time then. So much I can't think all of it.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever go to jail?

GREEN: I didn't go to jail.

HUNTLEY: Didn't go to jail. But did you demonstrate? Did you march in the demonstrations?

GREEN: I marched in the demonstrations, but I didn't never go to jail.

HUNTLEY: Tell me. Can you explain what those demonstrations were like?

GREEN: Yes. I tell you they were not coward folks.

HUNTLEY: You were brave if you were out there?

GREEN: Yes. Because see you didn't have a gun, nothing, but yourself. And we worked in shifts. If I knew you were, he knew where I was. We knew how many hours we were going to work and just sit up and guard the house.

HUNTLEY: What did you do while you set there and guarded the houses?

GREEN: Just sat there.

HUNTLEY: Did you talk about the Movement?

GREEN: We just sat there. Yes, we just sat there. See, Shuttlesworth, they 00:16:00intended to pick him up in a shovel. They blowed up the toilet stool. Blowed up everything. And Shuttlesworth's wife and children were around in the other room. It didn't bother them. But the mattress went up and come down and Shuttlesworth walked out Monday.

HUNTLEY: So that must have meant that he was here for a special reason then. Somebody was protecting him. How did your family feel about your involvement with the Movement?

GREEN: They were for it.

HUNTLEY: Were they involved? Did they go to the mass meetings?

GREEN: No. They didn't go.

HUNTLEY: But they didn't discouraged you from going?

GREEN: No. They knew it wouldn't do any good no way.

HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of?

GREEN: Groveland.

HUNTLEY: Groveland?

GREEN: G-R-O-V-E-L-A-N-D.

HUNTLEY: Were you associate pastor there?

HUNTLEY: All right. Okay. Was your pastor and other members of your church involved in the Movement?

GREEN: Some of them were. I used to pastor it. Some of them were, but not all of them.

HUNTLEY: When you were not the pastor, was the pastor involved with the Movement?

GREEN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: So, did they have mass meetings at your church?

GREEN: They had mass meetings at all churches then because that's where they was having them.

HUNTLEY: Yes. So they did have them at Groveland?

GREEN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Can you think of any event that stands out in your mind that you 00:18:00participated in during the Movement? If I ask you what is the most vivid memory you have of an event that took place during the Movement, what would that be?

GREEN: When King come from them Negroes in Dalton, Georgia had -- they wouldn't work with King. They had turned him down. It was King and Andrew Young and Hosea Williams come to Birmingham. And this came. They were walking arm in arm to Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: And that's what you remember most about the struggle?

GREEN: Yes and Ms. King, you know, she was shot. She was playing the organ and shot and Daddy King came and he was shot. So they said don't -- that boy said 00:19:00"he could have killed him, but he said Daddy wouldn't want you to do that.

HUNTLEY: Yes. This was when Mrs. King, Dr. King's mother was shot. That's what you are referring to. What would you consider to be the benefits of the Movement to your family, the community and to the nation? How did the Movement benefit all of us?

GREEN: Well, it benefitted us by being there for one thing. You know they were there.

HUNTLEY: So you knew that the Movement was there and you knew that the Movement was moving on?

GREEN: Moving on.

HUNTLEY: Yes. Would you say that the Movement was successful?

GREEN: I would.

HUNTLEY: How did it change things?

GREEN: Well, for Negroes especially. We had more rights 'cause when you voted, that got you more rights. Everyone we could get to vote or register. Down in the Black belt. There weren't very few Negroes voting down there in Selma and around. But we got the vote at Brown Chapel -- that church down there. We got them to register and vote.

HUNTLEY: So you were a part of the Selma marches as well, then?

GREEN: Yes. Selma to Montgomery.

HUNTLEY: Did you actually march from Selma to Montgomery?

GREEN: Yes. We come from oh, way down here. But I didn't march all the way. I 00:21:00rode on back of the wagons.

HUNTLEY: Were you there the day that the state troopers met the people on the bridge?

GREEN: No. I wasn't there that day. But I was there the next time. Yes. That's where they met them at. They call that Bloody Sunday. That's where they beating them up and everything. But those same policemen they welcomed them that next year.

HUNTLEY: Yes. They had been ordered to protect the marchers at that point, right?

GREEN: Yes. On account of voting. Negroes was voting. White man wanted a vote. He couldn't tell a Black vote from a White vote.

HUNTLEY: Tell me what do you remember about growing up in Birmingham that would 00:22:00make you happy when the Movement came alone?

GREEN: Well, like I said, Birmingham was a segregated city. And when the Movement came along, we had more freedom on account of we voted.

HUNTLEY: What was segregated? How did segregation actually operate?

GREEN: Well, if you was a Negro, say for instance on the street cars. If you was a Negro, they had a rod up there. You sit over here and the white folks sit over there even if you standing up. Just like Rosa Parks. Rosa Parks was tired and she didn't get up. So we got a lot of benefits out of it.

HUNTLEY: So you would say that it was successful? Would you think that Birmingham as a city had a real impact upon the success of the Civil Rights 00:23:00Movement overall?

GREEN: Yes. Birmingham is what made King. That's where he got his recognition from -- from Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: So they couldn't do in Albany, Georgia?

GREEN: No. They couldn't do. Those negroes, turned their back on it. They couldn't do it and he was glad to get somewhere to come. Shuttlesworth was King's secretary and they brought over there -- brought him over to us and he was glad to get somewhere to come. That's the reason I say, King was known nationwide, but Birmingham made King. Give him his biggest boost.

HUNTLEY: How would you describe Fred Shuttlesworth?

GREEN: Fred Shuttlesworth, his mother lived in Oxmoor. He's a Birmingham man. But Fred Shuttlesworth it ain't hardly no way to describe that man. He's somebody's man. He was then and is now. They -- five of them went up to a White school and they beat him with chains.

HUNTLEY: At the Phillips High School?

GREEN: Yes. Beat him with chains.

HUNTLEY: Were you there that day?

GREEN: No. And they put him in jail. We were going to sleep out there that night if they didn't let him out. They put him in jail and the next morning he come out smiling. That's right. That's why them marks -- them marks on him now. He come out smiling.

HUNTLEY: Was that the time that his wife was stabbed?

GREEN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Did you -- you went up with him during the time he was attacked? Were you there with him at the time?

GREEN: I wasn't right with him. No. You know we were back. Bull Conner was supposed to send the policemen. He didn't send any police. They Peck -- Peck was a rich man's son. But he was down here with him from New York and they bloodied his head. We carried him over to the Carraway and they wouldn't take him. So we carried him to Hillman.

They said two Negroes, dressed up and Negro brought him and give him a dime and told them to call him. That would mean Montgomery.

HUNTLEY: This was when James Peck came in with the Freedom Riders?

GREEN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Okay.

GREEN: He--Montgomery.

HUNTLEY: Okay. Reverend, is there anything else that you would like to add that we hadn't talked about today? Something that you would like for people to know about, where the Movement is concerned?

GREEN: I think Emory Jackson was fighting for freedom, like I said, before anybody. His sister couldn't get a job. You know, she had to go to Florida. She couldn't get a teaching job here on account of that. And so her momma said, she was going to give them something they could take -- an education. So like I said, Jackson really was fighting before anybody. And Fred would tell him where we going to meet because we was meeting from church to church. And Jackson would put it in his paper where we going to meet at every week. What time and where we 00:27:00going to meet. And, then, he go up there and carried one to Bull Conner. Every Monday Bull Conner had some pimps there and we knew it. Say they wouldn't have to tell him.

HUNTLEY: So you tell him yourself so he wouldn't have to worry about getting it from the pimps?

GREEN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Well, I want to thank you for coming out and sitting with us to tell us about what happened during the Movement and how Birmingham influenced the Movement. And, it's obvious that you have a lot of information about Fred Shuttlesworth and others. I want to thank you for taking your special time out to come and talk with us about it.

HUNTLEY: Well, I was glad to. I don't know, I was trying to think about. If I 00:28:00think of anything else, I will.

HUNTLEY: Okay. If you think of anything else, we'll be glad to come out and sit with you again. But again, I appreciate you taking the time out. And all I need to know is what's your secret to staying here 85 years?

GREEN: That ain't no secret. Doing to others as you would have them do unto you.

HUNTLEY: Okay.

GREEN: Love thy neighbor as thyself. You do unto other, you ain't going to do nothing bad to yourself.

HUNTLEY: That's right.

GREEN: And if you do unto others as you would want them to do, I think you'll be all right.

HUNTLEY: Okay. I certainly appreciate it. Thank you Rev. Green. And we will hopefully talk with you again sometime.

GREEN: Yes, I hope so.

HUNTLEY: Okay. Thank you.