Johnnie Cunningham

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Jonnie M. Cunningham for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I'm Dr. Horace Huntley; today's date is November 19, 2008. I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule and welcome to the Institute.

CUNNINGHAM: Thank you.

HUNTLEY: Were you born in Birmingham or in Bessemer?

CUNNINGHAM: I was born in Bessemer, Alabama on February 22, 1926. I was raised in Bessemer.

HUNTLEY: Raised in Bessemer, went to Dunbar High School. Did you have brothers and sisters, how many brothers and sisters did you have?

CUNNINGHAM: My mother had one child and he was four years old and he left--my grandparents had us until he was about 17 and that's when our grandmother died. He was 15 and I was 17. When he turned 17 he joined the Navy and that was his 00:01:00life, out there in California after he got out the--

HUNTLEY: So, made a career?

CUNNINGHAM: Not a career; but, that's when he retired out there in San Diego, California.

HUNTLEY: That's a beautiful place.

CUNNINGHAM: Oh, I know that.

HUNTLEY: Were your parents from Bessemer?

CUNNINGHAM: Originally as far as I know from listening to conversations, my mother and grandparents were from down in Autaugaville, Alabama.

HUNTLEY: Oh okay.

CUNNINGHAM: That's all I know about it.

HUNTLEY: Your grandmother raised you?

CUNNINGHAM: Grandmother and my grandfather raised me. Not my mother's father, but my grandmother's husband.

HUNTLEY: Growing up in Bessemer, what part of Bessemer did you grow up in?

CUNNINGHAM: They called it North Bessemer. It says north, but it's off on 19th 00:02:00Street, that's where I went when I was eight years old. I was living in the vicinity of the Dunbar High School. My grandmother lifted me over the back fence and I ran into the back door to Ms. Warren.

HUNTLEY: What was that like, going to Dunbar? Did you go to Dunbar all the way through?

CUNNINGHAM: No, I did not finish school--

HUNTLEY: But you started first grade there?

CUNNINGHAM: Yes and a little while I went to the Pipe Shop School and then I got into junior high school, I went back to Dunbar.

HUNTLEY: What was it like growing in Bessemer, Alabama?

CUNNINGHAM: To me, I don't have any--we knew who we were, where we were. But, I don't recall a lot of stuff that a lot of people say they remembered. Because I 00:03:00always--like I said, meet White families and things and I started--my grandmother worked around them. They were just people to me and back then, everybody had a hard time, I guess. But, I don't recall my brother and I as having a hard time because two old people done everything they could for us. I don't know a lot about a lot of stuff like that. But, you know where you stood.

HUNTLEY: What kind of work did you grandmother and your grandfather do?

CUNNINGHAM: Well, my grandfather worked for Berman Brothers and they had a scraplike stuff, over where the Pullman plant is today, it only--when I was a child and can remember, it extended only to 25th Street and 5th Ave. There were some slag dumps out there and they had iron or something like--look like silver 00:04:00like and they called it like managese iron or something like that. So, my granddaddy would dynamite the little spots where they were using a steam shovel like to remove the slag. They put it on a dump truck and they would take it to somebody and they people would knock the slag part off one side. I was just in their life like that. My grandmother was doing like domestic work and stuff like that.

HUNTLEY: You say your mother died early?

CUNNINGHAM: Yes, at the age of 20. I turned 5, she died like August and I was four when she died and I turned five the following year in February. A lot of people say that I can't remember stuff when I was five years old. I may not be 00:05:00able to remember stuff, but I know about stuff because it was always out and I do remember.

HUNTLEY: My grand daddy died when I was six and I remember it vividly.

CUNNINGHAM: I can remember when we were kids and things. Like I say, we had good times because nobody anything. Dad-D, is what I called my grand daddy, he always told us stories and things. He told us that he had a sixth grade education at that time and he taught us a lot of things. When we started school, we already knew.

HUNTLEY: You were already prepared?

CUNNINGHAM: Right. My little brother--I call him my brother, he was never in the first grade, he started school in the second grade and then I went to school a little earlier. After I told my grandmother I was ready to go and we didn't have 00:06:00birth certificates and things at that time and she lifted me over the back fence that divided our house and Dunbar and I went in the back door.

HUNTLEY: So, you were right there?

CUNNINGHAM: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about going to school at Dunbar?

CUNNINGHAM: I can remember the first concert I was in at Dunbar.

HUNTLEY: What did you do?

CUNNINGHAM: We had a play, as we used to call it. Ms. Wright--at that time, she was a young woman. I don't know whether she had graduated or not, but she was our music teacher. We had done a scene like you take the high road I'll take the low road that was one of the songs. I remember my friends and things, everybody 00:07:00were friends at that time. I see some of them every once in a while.

HUNTLEY: Did you have any favorite teachers?

CUNNINGHAM: Well, Ms. Warren was my favorite teacher; that was my first grade teacher. At that time, one teacher was teaching everything.

HUNTLEY: That's right. You didn't pass classes.

CUNNINGHAM: As I gone on, when I left from Dunbar and when we moved from that area and went over to 19th Street and we went to the Pipe Shop School and I did have some very---I was about in the third or fourth at that time. I have some 00:08:00real favorite teachers down to the Pipe Shop and there was Ms. Spates(sp?) and Ms. McKinney and my favorite teacher was Ms. Odom, she was our English teacher. We had another teacher, Ms. Bolden, taught us Geography. They don't teach kids Geography in school now, I don't think.

HUNTLEY: I don't think so either.

CUNNINGHAM: Then, I had a Math teacher, Mr. Curtis was his name. Then, when I went back to Dunbar--I can't remember his name right now. Anyway, he taught some of my kids after teaching me, because I was a young mother.

HUNTLEY: So, you went to--what grade did you finish?

CUNNINGHAM: I finished at the tenth grade over at Dunbar.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after you finished school? Did you start---

CUNNINGHAM: I was working way before then because I started out by the time I was 12 years, like domestic work. I'd take care of kids. I had done that for a long time and then I used to go on vacation and that's why I traveled so much, working for a family and I'd go--

HUNTLEY: Go on vacation with them? Where did you go?

CUNNINGHAM: Whew!

HUNTLEY: All over.

CUNNINGHAM: I'd been all over. I done a little boys'--little Manfrey boys up 00:10:00there when I was about 12, the only thing I did--in the summertime, when I was out of school. I would keep them and we'll go down to what they call Westlake Mall down there and then we'll go over to the other mall for the rest of the day. As I grew older--

HUNTLEY: How did you get there; on the bus?

CUNNINGHAM: Not at that time, it was just walking distance. As I grew older I had done domestic work, like I say, up until I was '71, when I went to work at the University. But, I had worked for some of the same families all these years and we'd go to Florida and Gulf Shores and everywhere when our children was still--

HUNTLEY: Yes.

CUNNINGHAM: Like I told--I had been all up and down that coast.

HUNTLEY: So, the families treated you very well?

CUNNINGHAM: Oh yea, I had gone to California and visited. It was right after all 00:11:00the stuff we had here. And they asked, "What are you all gonna do back there?" I said, "We don't what we needed to do back there." They said, "Well you have to go around to the back door and all that stuff." I said, "No, nobody had ever told me I had to go in the back door." I was treated nicely because I always treated people nice.

HUNTLEY: When you would go to Florida and Gulf Shores, usually on weekends or is it vacations?

CUNNINGHAM: Some of my kids were small at that time. But, where I lived wasn't 00:12:00nothing but families and you don't find those families anymore. But, I had no problem in taking care of my kids because I was working taking care of them.

HUNTLEY: Did your children ever play with their children? Did you ever take them to the houses with you?

CUNNINGHAM: My children would spend whole months at the time over at Dr. Chase's, when they didn't have children per se, but we would stay over there; like they would go out to Jackson Hole, Wyoming(sp?), all those areas out there. I would take my children over there.

HUNTLEY: Right, out to Hoover--

CUNNINGHAM: Rocky Ridge is off 280.

HUNTLEY: Right.

CUNNINGHAM: I'd take them over there and we'd spend the whole summer over there. They'd been exposed to them and like--Ms. Carol; I know you don't know who she is. They don't know color or nothing like that. Just like I don't let somebody 00:13:00do something to me.

HUNTLEY: Were you ever involved in the struggles that were going on around here?

CUNNINGHAM: Well, I was involved in a way because I had to--not in Birmingham per se, but what I done with my struggle was keep my money in my pocket. I was asked by one of my employers, "Why you're not down there marching?" I told him, "That's not my bag, marching. I'll tell you one thing, I don't want nobody spitting on me, turning no water on me." I'm not afraid of the dogs, you know, but you know if you have a dog and tell him what to do, he'll do it.

Dogs weren't my problem and I'm not gonna say I'm not gonna hit back and that's not what Dr. King wanted. He wanted a nonviolent thing, I'm not a violent person, but I wasn't gonna take somebody's abuse, I ain't taking nothing. But, I 00:14:00told him what I will do, let him know that I wasn't making what I should have been making. I'll take these few dollars you give me and I'll take it down there and give it to them.

HUNTLEY: You would tell him that?

CUNNINGHAM: Oh yea.

HUNTLEY: Did they respond to that?

CUNNINGHAM: He said I was crazy anyway.

HUNTLEY: He didn't expect anything different from you.

CUNNINGHAM: That's what I told him. We were riding the bus home. Then, I would ride from Bessemer to Birmingham and catch the 45 and when I get over here, I would catch 51 and go out on Rocky Ridge Road, that's where I was working at when the struggle was going on. But, I didn't spend my money in Birmingham and I didn't spend it in Bessemer--really in Birmingham because of what was going on. 00:15:00I would buy my food over at Rocky Ridge Road and bring it on home when we had a ride. But, then after Ms. Parks sat down, we all walked for 14 months and I still went to work on Monday Wednesdays and Fridays because we had some strong me.

They would pick us up like if we're out on the highway, they'll pick us up and bring us to Birmingham then somebody would take us on over, just like Ms. Parks. Then, they would come there and pick us up and bring us back. We didn't have a problem; then, we finally got somebody that would make a regular around there for us.

HUNTLEY: Did you work everyday?

CUNNINGHAM: I worked everyday, but not over the mountain. I had different people that I worked for, good families.

HUNTLEY: You started working at UAB?

CUNNINGHAM: In 1971, I went to work at UAB.

HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to go over there?

CUNNINGHAM: Because Richard was starting school, my husband was a diabetic. I had three little granddaughters in St. Francis. My husband worked at the Pipe Shop, but at that time all our children was grown up. But, we raised six grandchildren.

HUNTLEY: So, you had to feed some mouths?

CUNNINGHAM: Where there are a lot of people, there's always a lot of food. I fed mine and everybody else that come along.

HUNTLEY: So, what did you do at UAB?

CUNNINGHAM: I was in Environmental Services and I was assistant to the supervisor. As a matter of fact I did her work and mine too. They had no problem with me. Like I said, they sent out a survey asking why did we think our job was 00:17:00important. I told why I thought mine was important, because any virus or anything got loose, Environmental Services was gonna be responsible for that. When the doctors couldn't do what I had---

HUNTLEY: What was your job?

CUNNINGHAM: Actually, I started off like doing beds and different stuff like that. You know the things that Environmental Services do. After that, I was sent over to--when they built the diabetes hospital, I was sent over there with a group of seven people and that was my job until I retired, overseeing everything over and helping with the work. My job description said: Assist to the 00:18:00supervisor. I had a supervisor for about eight hours per week. Then, I had to do all the paperwork and stuff like that and I assisted with seeing to the work being done.

Like I used to tell them, "If you don't do it, it's gonna fall on my shoulders." I didn't have a problem because that was a job too and I was glad of it. It helped me, Richard went to school over there for two years after I had started working. As a matter of fact, I started in '71 and he graduated in '70. I met a lot of good friends, made a lot of friends and everything.

HUNTLEY: Did you and your family ever consider leaving Alabama?

CUNNINGHAM: No.

HUNTLEY: You say you had a brother that was in California?

CUNNINGHAM: My brother was in the Navy and that was just my brother. It was alright.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever visit him in California?

CUNNINGHAM: I went out there over 50 years.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

CUNNINGHAM: Yes.

HUNTLEY: How was that?

CUNNINGHAM: Like I told him--I went out there one time--when I first went there, it was just a little hills and stuff like that. I didn't see any freeways and nothing like that. I enjoyed out there, but it was discrimination everywhere you went. I say that today.

HUNTLEY: That's true.

CUNNINGHAM: I had met this guy, he went home with my brother and his wife and I went out one night and we had gone to--a bunch of chief petty officers. Then, the lady walked up to me and asked me, "Are you for real?"

HUNTLEY: What did she mean by that?

CUNNINGHAM: I'm gonna tell you in a minute. I said, "Meaning?" She said, "You 00:20:00don't look like anybody from Alabama, nor do you act like it." I said, "How do people from Alabama act?" I reminded her that the people she saw going across that bridge down in Selma/Montgomery March. I said, "Everybody don't look like that, a lot of those people did sit ins." They wanted to know about our bathroom facilities and blah blah, just a whole lot of stupid stuff. When I finally realized what she was trying to say, I went over to the bar and got me a little brandy, I don't know what she had in her glass, but I know what I had in mine.

I told her that everybody in Alabama don't look like those people. I told her, 00:21:00"You will never see me walking around looking like that, if I was going across the Pettus Bridge, I wouldn't be dressed up like that. A lot of people were sit ins.

HUNTLEY: People have a tendency to sort of stereotype people from Alabama.

CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, but they didn't want to believe that I was from Alabama. I just wanted to know what people from Alabama looked like, that's what wanted to know.

HUNTLEY: They want to see somebody ragged.

CUNNINGHAM: Then, the guy--he didn't know anything about--but one funeral home in Birmingham and I can't think of the name, it was an old funeral home. He knew somebody from there. He was the person that asked then about what are we gonna do. I said, "We will not tear up downtown Birmingham because they gonna stop us 00:22:00before we get there." I said, "Not like you guys doing in the Watts area out here." We had a big conversation because I read up on all that stuff.

HUNTLEY: When did you register to vote?

CUNNINGHAM: 1952.

HUNTLEY: What was that experience like?

CUNNINGHAM: Questionnaires at that time--asking if you if you're an bona fide resident of Alabama, about the county and how long had you been there, if you say you were from a different county or something, you put down a different number, that would disqualify you. How many senators, congressman, representatives and things we had. The thing that still is vivid in my mind, we had to tell them the name of a woman senator out of Chicago, her name was Ms. 00:23:00Smith, I'll never forget that and that was back in 1952. We paid poll tax.

HUNTLEY: Did you pass the first time you went?

CUNNINGHAM: I passed the first time I went.

HUNTLEY: How did that--because they would have all kinds of different ways to disqualify you.

CUNNINGHAM: That's what I'm saying now, if you didn't know these answers they had down there-- that's why they disqualified you. But, we knew.

HUNTLEY: Did you know Asberry Howard?

CUNNINGHAM: Yes, I know Asberry Howard and his father too.

HUNTLEY: His father started the Bessemer Voters' League and they were very instrumental in getting people registered.

CUNNINGHAM: I knew them real well because they lived over in South Bessemer and 00:24:00we lived on the North side.

HUNTLEY: Mr. Howard--the Senior, he became a state legislature.

CUNNINGHAM: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of the campaigns?

CUNNINGHAM: Mostly at that time, I did not--well, I would go down everytime we have a meeting, I like to go to the churches and stuff like to see what we were gonna do. I had to work and didn't have time and then at that time, you would need transportation to get to and from.

HUNTLEY: That's right.

CUNNINGHAM: Mr. Cunningham also qualified in 1952.

HUNTLEY: Did he? Okay. So, you guys were carrying the banner then?

CUNNINGHAM: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Were there other people in your neighborhood? Was that an effort?

CUNNINGHAM: Well, we had a few that did. The rest of them--they weren't ready 00:25:00until the voter registrars. The Government sent those people out. I filled out my questionnaire.

HUNTLEY: Was there a question when you went to work, about your voting?

CUNNINGHAM: I had problems working at the laundry--my two girlfriends and it was like a self- service laundry. This one lady asked me did I qualify to vote because I wanted to mix with White people. I told her I was mixing with them all my life, it wasn't a big deal with me and it's still not a big deal.

HUNTLEY: She's questioning you about why would a Black person want to vote.

CUNNINGHAM: Not because I wanted to be associated or be with them. I've always been proud of myself. Tell my children they're as good as the best and better 00:26:00than the rest and that way you don't have to worry about it.

HUNTLEY: I think all of our parents--

CUNNINGHAM: I have a lot of, if you want to say White friends. I know one particular lady now, when she came from Chattanooga, TN to work at the hospital. We're still real good friends right today. Her son had this condo down in Biloxi, MS and we went down there to spend a week at a time.

HUNTLEY: How has Bessemer changed over?

CUNNINGHAM: Bessemer's changed a lot; it was Bessemer. I can remember a lot of things that went on--

HUNTLEY: Like what for instance?

CUNNINGHAM: I remember when we had a slot machine right out there on 19th Street in a grocery store.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

CUNNINGHAM: Then, administration and stuff have changed around and different incidents and things happened there you know, all that stuff is still in my mind. I remember if somebody had mailed a bomb downtown Bessemer and that was like in 1978 because it was the same year my husband died.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

CUNNINGHAM: Just a lot of stuff.

HUNTLEY: Was the Klan active in Bessemer?

CUNNINGHAM: Well, they were but I never thought about no Klans.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever see them?

CUNNINGHAM: I did see--at one time it was later on, there was a field out there off the highway in Bessemer that they had a meeting out there. I remember a man in the drug store asking me where I was going and I was going back over where we had moved from, over there in the projects on the north side and to get some shoes. He asked, "Where you going this time of night, you see them people out 00:28:00there." I said, "Those people are tending to their business and I got to tend to mine." The bus came along and I got on the bus and went on and did what I had to do and come on back. They didn't bother me, because I still feel today, anybody hide your face to do anything--I never had problems with them doing anything to me or my family or nothing like that.

HUNTLEY: They met in that same place?

CUNNINGHAM: It was kind of a rally for some reason, I don't know.

HUNTLEY: Was that consistently done, the place where they normally meet?

CUNNINGHAM: This was one time that I remember, but I always heard my granddaddy talking about them.

HUNTLEY: You ever remember them coming through the neighborhood after one of 00:29:00those meetings or anything? They never drove through there like in a parade or nothing?

CUNNINGHAM: I don't remember, like I said, the only thing I saw--the group I saw was out there in that field having some type of rally.

HUNTLEY: Was that out on the superhighway?

CUNNINGHAM: Yes. That's when you come under that first viaduct, coming back this way.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever remember an organization called Mind Mill and Smelter Worker's Union?

CUNNINGHAM: I remember about the--

HUNTLEY: Was your granddaddy or your husband a member of a union?

CUNNINGHAM: Not until Jimbo went to work at the Pipe Shop. I remember my granddaddy talking about what they done to the people that belonged to the union and things like that. I can remember him vividly talking about stuff like that. Looks like he told me one time--he told us so much stuff that's still in my 00:30:00mind. Then, they were talking about the unions and what happened to the people that belonged to the union and things like that.

HUNTLEY: What did they say that happen?

CUNNINGHAM: They would beat the people up if they go into the mines and something like that, they would do something to do stop them from coming out and all that stuff.

HUNTLEY: Did anybody in your family ever work in the mines?

CUNNINGHAM: No.

HUNTLEY: At Pipe Shop?

CUNNINGHAM: No, my husband worked as pipe blower and my stepfather was also a pipe blower. But mine didn't cross no picket line if that's what you want to know. At one time, the union did--they weren't gonna give them this, they gonna 00:31:00lose their jobs and all that stuff and he told her, "I just have to lose mine because I have a family to think about and I can't do nothing like that." But, he wasn't gonna do it anyway.

HUNTLEY: There were some tough times in Bessemer with the union organization and stuff.

CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, it was tough times all around with a lot of stuff--

HUNTLEY: And that's when Mr. Howard was involved. I met him once or twice.

CUNNINGHAM: Asberry Howard.

HUNTLEY: Yeah, but I talked to son--in fact I've interviewed his son. But, they were real instrumental--

CUNNINGHAM: We have a lot of people--like I tell people all the time, you don't know what we know. A lot of times, what we know, if you keep it within and do to me, that's what make things work. I know enough to write a book to put Peyton's 00:32:00Place to shame because some of this stuff is personal and some stuff I was trusted with. I'm not a backslider.

HUNTLEY: You know, I'm just thinking, talking about Asberry Howard, he was attacked in Bessemer, do you remember when that happened?

CUNNINGHAM: I can remember when he was, yes. But, I can't--

HUNTLEY: He was at the courthouse and they attacked him--

CUNNINGHAM: I know about it but it's just not--I knew he was attacked, since you brought it up. A lot of stuff that happen--

HUNTLEY: A lot of things happened all over this area.

CUNNINGHAM: Oh yeah, and Attorney Shores was at Dunbar and he married Ms. Juan, he married one of the sisters and things, I remember all of that.

HUNTLEY: Did you know, I think--he worked at Dunbar, his name was Huntley--

CUNNINGHAM: That was way back then--

HUNTLEY: He left and went to DC and he became an Architect, but I think he taught at Dunbar and this may have been after you.

CUNNINGHAM: Yes, maybe so. I had gone down to Pipe Shop to school. But, all my kids went to Dunbar School, not all of them did--five of them went to first grades and things up to Dunbar, because I sent the other kids St. Francis to 00:34:00sister and them because it was a safe place while I was gone to work. People would say that I thought they were too good. It wasn't that, it was just convenient for me. At that particular time--and they got good training, some of them used it and some of them didn't. But, it was their prerogative. Like Richard and Yvonne, they first went to the Lutheran school when they were like four or five years old or something like. That was convenient for me.

HUNTLEY: Where would you transfer? You would ride the bus from Bessemer and--

CUNNINGHAM: Downtown Birmingham and I usually catch my bus--51 on 18th Street.

HUNTLEY: Actually different places where people would congregate to catch the bus to go across the mountains.

CUNNINGHAM: I remember all those cold days. But, I barely did stop, I just kept on going. Just like I tell the kids now, you gotta do what you gotta do. When they come complaining, even the little ones, you gotta do what you gotta do.

HUNTLEY: That's right.

CUNNINGHAM: See, I've been a lot of children's lives. Because like I said, I was raised a motherless child in an area where we lived, it was by--I don't know how many families were there. I have some of them living today. I have this one friend Freda Hall, whose in New York, I talked with her just the other day. She was a motherless child and she come down-- they brought her down from Chicago and I loved Freda. Freda was a little petite and she had rheumatic fever and 00:37:00they had to do surgery on her over at the Children's Hospital and she didn't have anybody to come and see about her but Johnnie Mae.

But, I would do my Sundays to go visit with Freda and when I went to visit her in New York, the lady said, "You don't have to me who you are, you're Johnnie Mae." Like I said, I worked with the families and things and I would bring clothes home. I've know Freda just to take just a suit or something. At that time, she'd cut out her a paper pattern and redo the fabric, you know all that stuff like that. Like I said, I don't carry myself as having a hard time. I just done good things and like I said, you can be nice to anybody and people will know how far to go with you.

HUNTLEY: Exactly, they'll respect you and you demand respect and you will get it.

CUNNINGHAM: Back when--Fob James and all those people come along, I used to have 00:38:00a lot of conversations with one of my employees about him, but I told that I was a Democrat and that's the way I'm staying. Because my granddaddy said that Republican--see I'm all back from Hoover, but they never cared nothing about Blacks and White folks.

HUNTLEY: You came up then, through Hoover, Roosevelt.

CUNNINGHAM: I can remember about--I said, about like I was four or five years old, my granddaddy--like I told you--Hoover was the President. TCI used to have 00:39:00a plant in Bessemer, long, long years ago. They moved to like Fairfield and Westfield and Dad D would go up there and get that old hard coke, get some tar and what kind of wood--he had a fire grate and he built him a sort of a round this that he could push in the grate(?) to build his fire behind that and that 00:40:00fire didn't go out until it was time to pull it the whole winter. Because what he would do, he'd make the fire and then he would throw this old hard coke over behind and then he would pull it to the front. I remember all that stuff and to me it was good days for us, nobody had anything.

HUNTLEY: You actually lived through the Depression.

CUNNINGHAM: I did. Like I said, I remember when my grandmother would get up and cook breakfast--he worked for Berman Brothers in Birmingham and he would have to go out and catch the street car and ride into Birmingham in the morning times. He would get off up in Brighton and walk on home and just put 14 cents--

HUNTLEY: ..save that.

CUNNINGHAM: But, I remember not having but two dresses when school started, we were just glad to get a pair of shoes and things like that. My first long coat--I was about 12, but I wasn't cold because my grandmothers dressed us warm and stuff like that. I didn't have a bad childhood.

HUNTLEY: That's right. We had a lot of people--because they sort of insulated us.

CUNNINGHAM: I still don't have any bad memories. But, those people were good to us, I loved them. As my children came along, my granddaddy was there to help them and Richard and them were smart kids, they were ready when they started school. The homework they had to do and my Dad D would gather a bunch of 00:42:00children around and he would tell us stories and he would teach us times and kids today don't have time table.

HUNTLEY: We got all this TV now. We didn't have TV back then and families got together and talked and told stories.

CUNNINGHAM: Oh yea. My husband and I always loved sports and we would listen to the baseball games and things like on the radio and when he started working at the Pipe Shop--when you know California games is later than ours. It would be about 11:00 and I would say, "Man, you better go to sleep because you have to go to work in the morning." We'd listen to The Shadow and then, if you listen long enough, you gonna see all this stuff. A lot of the stories that people listen 00:43:00to, we listened to them on the radio and they're not my bag, it's just everyday stuff.

HUNTLEY: Amos and Andy started on the radio didn't they?

CUNNINGHAM: Yes, they started on the radio. I used to listen to all of them. I think today if the children--if I thought the TV stations in those people like that for putting all that stuff on and we as viewers, if we could turn it off and not listen to it--or by the products that's sponsoring it, we wouldn't have it. Because, some of the stuff I see, we're just flipping through and I had a little grandson, he's 14--I went in there one day and said, "You don't watch that in my house."

HUNTLEY: That's the way you have to do it.

CUNNINGHAM: You might can watch it somewhere else, but you don't watch that here. The other little grandson, his mother was there and he told her, "Uh uh, you can't do that in here." See, he was used to being with my daddy and listening to spiritual songs and stuff like that. Getting back to the times and things--I've been through a lot, but the good outweighed the bad. I'm still looking forward to going on and helping out. I can remember, getting back to the Civil Rights thing like then, if we would go home, just like we were going to work, we'd come home and you go in the store, you come out with a package, they were gonna take that package away from you. But, I decided I wasn't gonna spend my money in Birmingham and I didn't do it.

HUNTLEY: You know it bypassed Birmingham.

CUNNINGHAM: But, I rode the bus everyday through there; to and from until the Boycott come on when Ms. Parks sat down. I've had good times, my good times outweighed my bad times and I like I told you, I traveled, I've been everywhere like the old sailor people used to tell the story about I've been from coast to coast from pillar to poles.

HUNTLEY: You have seen the world?

CUNNINGHAM: My first trip was to California, was--and, it was segregated out there at that time, in 1948 was the--December 1948, Tennessee was coming into town, I was catching Greyhound Bus to play Alabama. I remember that real good 00:46:00and I went out there and it wasn't the San Diego it is today. By the way, my brother was the first--this is what my nephews tell me, the first Black cement truck driver, you know that spreaded that cement on the roads out there. When I first went out there, it wasn't any roads.

HUNTLEY: All of that has been built up since then and now you wouldn't know it.

CUNNINGHAM: I've been there since my brother passed, 2001 or something like that.

HUNTLEY: I think I may have been there in 2000; my son lives in Los Angeles.

CUNNINGHAM: Does he? I have a lot of friends in Los Angeles, my husband have cousins out there. I think I have a nephew that lives in Compton now. I've been--see, when I go to San Diego and I'll catch the bus and I'll ride up LA and 00:47:00spend two or three days there. I really don't like to fly. I've never really caught a flight out of Los Angeles.

HUNTLEY: Is that right.

CUNNINGHAM: I would always go from San Diego to Los Angeles, get the bus and come back and leave San Diego. Where that 5, I think it's 105 or something like that where--what's his name's son--

HUNTLEY: Bill Cosby?

CUNNINGHAM: Bill Cosby's son was killed; I know exactly where that spot is because that's the entrance where you get back on the San Diego freeway coming back.

HUNTLEY: You know about it.

CUNNINGHAM: Oh yea. I had the privilege to go to--when did I go, 2004 or something, I went to the Bahamas for my first time.

HUNTLEY: Nassau?

CUNNINGHAM: Yes. I had a chance to go to Detroit. See, we had a social and 00:48:00savings club and we went to different places like for things--I had my foster family that we clung to. When we have family reunions, we'd go to different states and things and we went to--I think the last two times we were in the Detroit. I guess it's 30 minutes out of Detroit, we went to Canada on the boat, been all to Las Vegas. First trip when we started leaving, we went down to Atlanta to the Underground and stayed there when we would go on trips. We left there and started going to New Orleans and I don't know--we would go every other month. We had a nice group of ladies, we all grew up together.

HUNTLEY: I know that must have been fun.

CUNNINGHAM: Yea, it was fun. Then, after we stopped going to New Orleans, we decided that we were gonna book us a flight and go to Las Vegas. But, we had a lot of fun doing stuff like that with a group of people. Then, I never had to worry about the children because it was always somebody there to take care of us.

HUNTLEY: That's good.

CUNNINGHAM: But, I done the best I could with them and taught them the best I could.

HUNTLEY: Well, you done a good job.

CUNNINGHAM: Like I tell everybody, even myself, "I'm Mrs. Johnnie Mae Cunningham; I'm as much as anybody is." I might come to your house and do your work, but still, I'm Ms. Cunningham.

HUNTLEY: We are all human beings.

CUNNINGHAM: That's right.

HUNTLEY: Well, Ms. Cunningham, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule, giving me your history and nobody can give your history but you.

CUNNINGHAM: Oh yea, I know all about--we didn't get to this part about Shores' houses, off Center Street when all those were bombed. Martin Luther King was in 00:50:00Birmingham and they brought him to Bessemer to the city jail for security and all that stuff. I kept up with all that stuff.

HUNTLEY: All during your time.

CUNNINGHAM: He's right up in here. I remember as a young adult growing, at one time--the streetcar business; they had a caboose on the streetcar. You paid the men your fare and you would go get in the car behind--sometimes, he was so lowdown, he'd pull on off and leave you. Then, I remember the boards and things like that. I remember when after the 14 months, they started the bus back, I had gone up there in Midfield and I had my daughter with me and I was tired this day. They had moved the boards and things and I was standing out there and I had no business standing up there.

She said, "Momma, do you know what you're doing?" I said, "I said, "I'm going up here to sit down." I went right up on there and sat down. But, now, I tell you what, my preference is not sitting at the front of the bus now. I like to sit maybe in the middle part and when they started back after I started working, I would go to the rear because I'm crocheting and stuff like getting me a good seat back there and stuff like that--

HUNTLEY: It's convenient for you.

CUNNINGHAM: Convenient for me. I didn't start driving until I was 45.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

CUNNINGHAM: Yes. I bought my first car when I went to work at the University, the little old credit union and got me a car.

HUNTLEY: You could get around then.

CUNNINGHAM: Still driving a little 1987 Nova.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

CUNNINGHAM: I don't try driving too much now. But, if it's an emergency, I will go straight to University Hospital if I had to. But, I only go to the store or 00:52:00to church and if I wanted to visit old friend--most of my close friends are gone. I go to The Foundry and to the Thrift Store and different places like that. I love going to the grocery store because when I sent the kids to buy, they don't buy what I need and what I want to cook with like I'm gonna do my Thanksgiving dinner and they come over with all kinds of stuff.

I say, "No, just take me to the store because I know what I like. I still enjoy cooking and enjoy feeding people; they could come out the street and eat at my house.

The only person I see is the person that try to do me harm and I'm thinking because they turn pink, it really don't make a difference with me. Like I told 00:53:00them, I been around doctors, lawyers the Indian chief and everything else, so I know people. I was fortunate enough to meet a lot of friends and things from countries and things, working over at UAB.

HUNTLEY: They're from everywhere.

CUNNINGHAM: Oh yea.

HUNTLEY: What do you think about Obama?

CUNNINGHAM: I think it's wonderful, but I would tell the truth in the primary, I rode it for the girl. But, I knew what I was gonna do, see I had my chance to vote for her then, had she won, I still would have had the chance to vote for her. But, I'm glad--I don't know if it really ever sunk in real good about it, but I am glad, I didn't know, I've been through 13 presidents. He makes 13 and some of them I could talk about, what put us in the predicament we're in now 00:54:00from now on. That cowboy wasn't the president; he had his momma and daddy backing him, that's my opinion. That's what I call him, cowboy.

HUNTLEY: Wasn't he a good president?

CUNNINGHAM: No, no, still trying to make cracks you know. The last eight years, we went down. I don't care what anybody say about President Clinton, when the man left, he left some money. The little girl that went into his office, she was a sit-in, that's what I believe. Men are men are some of the little fast gals is fast gals. They'll do anything for a dollar. But, if he and Hillary can straighten it out, nobody can say anything.

HUNTLEY: That's all that's necessary.

CUNNINGHAM: I hope the girl do get to be Secretary of State, I hope she make it. 00:55:00She has the ability and they're talking about--that girl is smart, I'm talking about Hillary now. She is smart enough to stand up to Bill and tell him what she gonna take and what she don't want. If she don't want it, she don't it. I think the Obama is a lovely family.

HUNTLEY: Yes, they are.

CUNNINGHAM: I'm just praying that none of the ill-minded people don't get to him and that's what had me worried in the beginning. Carolyn said, "Ma, ain't nothing gonna happen to him." I said, "Sis, Momma don't know that." You already had those three threats out there.

HUNTLEY: They'll probably be a lot more.

CUNNINGHAM: These little skinheads, they caught them up there in Washington--

HUNTLEY: Tennessee.

CUNNINGHAM: Out of Tennessee. See, I know all this stuff, I read the paper. Neighbors criticize me, they said--I get up in the morning time, I have a front 00:56:00porch, I get my cup of coffee and my newspaper. They said I don't be reading the newspaper, I be watching them. I read the newspaper, I look at the fashion, and I do food and all this. I started looking at money, all that stuff is to keep your mind off--

HUNTLEY: It keeps your mind active.

CUNNINGHAM: A lot of times I would tell people that I have traveled, if I wanted to take somebody to Cleveland, I know exactly where to take them, how to take them, where you turn off to go to Detroit, gone to Cleveland, I know where to go.

HUNTLEY: Because you've been.

CUNNINGHAM: I been there, seen that, did that, but I can truthfully say that I have done anything that caused anybody harm that I know of.

HUNTLEY: That's good.

CUNNINGHAM: I was talking to my pastor, Reverend Johnson, when they buried my cousin back in summer time and I was saying something--somebody was saying something about age and I told them I was just 28 and then Reverend, he grew up in our church and I said something and he said, "Ms. Cunningham, the Lord--I said, "The Lord is keeping me here for something." On my good days I'm good, on my bad days, I ain't--

HUNTLEY: All of us have good days and bad days.

CUNNINGHAM: I've gone through a lot; I got hit by a car when I was 34 years old. But I still didn't let that hinder me.

HUNTLEY: You just have to keep on going.

CUNNINGHAM: Because when was I working at UAB, I needed that job. Jimbo was working four hours a week, Richard was starting school, had girls in school, I had to work. I made clothes and things for them when they were little.

HUNTLEY: You're a community person then.

CUNNINGHAM: I still am. I have a lot of friends. When I had my 80th birthday down at Bessemer City Hall, down on 3rd Ave, it was about 150 people there.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

CUNNINGHAM: Yes. Most of them were young people, my White children and all.

HUNTLEY: Well, alright, that's great. I appreciate you taking the time out just to tell me about your story and that's good.

CUNNINGHAM: Carolyn--I had told I didn't think I would make it today. She told me I could go. I wanted her to shut her mouth. I think Dr. Huntley would 00:59:00understand if I didn't feel good, I'll see him when he come back.