Rev. John Cross Interviewed on July 24, 1997

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Rev. John Cross for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institutes Oral History Project. I'm Dr. Horace Huntley. We are presently at the Civil Rights Institute. Today is July 24, 1997. I want to thank you first of all for taking time out of your schedule and coming all the way from Atlanta to sit and talk to us today about the movement and about you.

CROSS: You haven't gotten my bill yet. (Laughing)

HUNTLEY: So, that will be coming in the mail? I would just like to start by asking you some general questions about your background. Where were you from Rev. Cross?

CROSS: I was born in Haynes, Arkansas.

HUNTLEY: How many siblings did you have?

CROSS: I had four brothers and two sisters.

HUNTLEY: There were seven of you?

CROSS: Seven of us.

HUNTLEY: Where do you fit in?

CROSS: I'm the baby.

HUNTLEY: You're the baby. Ok. Were your parents both from Haynes, Arkansas?

CROSS: From the general area.

HUNTLEY: What type of work did they do?

CROSS: Well, my father was a riding boss, that was the title they gave him for his job. He was a supervisor for the day hands that worked for the plantation owner. Their assignments...he would have to go out and do different things on the plantation. That was not a part of the sharecroppers' responsibility.

HUNTLEY: So, he was sort of the manager of the workers on the plantation?

CROSS: Right, of the day hands.

HUNTLEY: What did your mother do? What type of work did she do?

CROSS: She did laundry for the plantation owner and whatever else she could find the time to do.

HUNTLEY: What about their educational backgrounds? Did either of them attend formal schooling?

CROSS: I think high school was about as far as either of them went.

HUNTLEY: I see. What kind of town was Haynes, Arkansas as you grew up? Do you remember when you started first grade?

CROSS: Oh, yeah. I started school before I was even old enough to be in there. My oldest sisters would take me to school sometime on special occasions and I got to know the principal and several of the teachers. So, that broke me in so 00:03:00when I did enter I was, it wasn't strange for me.

HUNTLEY: So, you were sort of ahead of the game?

CROSS: Right.

HUNTLEY: An old timer almost when you started. What was school like in Haynes? Those first days of your schooling.

CROSS: It was about the same routine as it is now. Getting your assignments out and going to another. You can imagine a one room school in a church building with eight grades. The teacher had to listen to your assignments.

HUNTLEY: You had one teacher teaching eight grades?

CROSS: One teacher.

HUNTLEY: How many students, approximately?

CROSS: About 75 to 100.

HUNTLEY: In one room?

CROSS: In one room.

HUNTLEY: That must have been an experience.

CROSS: I was giving some instruction by a predecessor who had taught. He was giving it up for a better paying job, teaching in another school district. So, he had asked me...I had just gotten out of the army and he talked me into accepting. I said, "I hadn't been to college" and he said, "we can get you an emergency certificate."

HUNTLEY: Well, did you then...after you had gone through Haynes, you went to high school? Did you go to high school in Haynes?

CROSS: No, they only had a White high school.

HUNTLEY: So, where did you go to high school?

CROSS: I went to high school in Forest City, 8 miles north of Haynes.

HUNTLEY: What was that transition like going from a small, one room elementary school? Was your high school larger?

CROSS: Oh, much larger.

HUNTLEY: How did that feel? Now, it's really like going to town to go to school, right? What was that like?

CROSS: It was quite a change. It brought about some fears that you had to over succumb by space and room. A room for almost any needs you had. I quickly made the transition satisfactorily, making friends with the students.

HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any extracurricular activities?

CROSS: I tried to participate in one. It was a glee club. I wanted to become a member because they would get engagements to go out and sing for some of these organizations. I just wanted to try out for that, but I didn't make the tryouts. 00:06:00They assigned me to being a tenor and I ended up singing baritone. They would give me a baritone assignment and I would end up singing tenor. So, the director said, "you won't keep your voice in the same assignment we give you so we can't use you."

HUNTLEY: Was that a real disappointment?

CROSS: It was a very big disappointment for me, cause I had looked forward to being in that group and enjoying some of the things they enjoyed. When I was turned down, it was just like somebody had just shocked me. I soon overcame it.

HUNTLEY: Yes, as we normally do with disappointments. Well, are there any individuals or teachers that you remember that stand out in your mind that had an impact upon you at that point? That time in your career you were sort of laying foundation. Is there anybody that stands out in your mind?

CROSS: Yeah, several of the teachers. The principal, who had dual capacities of being principal and assistant superintendent throughout the county. I don't know how he did his other job, cause I never missed him at our school. Dr. Charlie Stewart.

HUNTLEY: Dr. Charlie Stewart. Now you say that he was assistant superintendent over the Black schools?

CROSS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: How many schools were in the area?

CROSS: Well, there were several. I'm not sure how many.

HUNTLEY: There were several, but you never missed him from the classroom?

CROSS: Never missed him from Lincoln High. He was always there. He organized and grouped male students into a class called the common sense class. That was one of the things I can remember him by. He always said to us, "when you go seeking a job; when you have an interview, look the interviewer directly in the eye. Don't be looking up or down, but eyeball to eyeball contact." He said, "try to do that" and he would have us experiment with him, to talk with him and look him eyeball to eyeball.

HUNTLEY: These were all males?

CROSS: All males. One of the teachers said one day with the group I was talking 00:09:00with...it was kind of uncut. He said, "whoever heard of somebody organizing a common sense class? You can't teach a person common sense you are born with that." I said, "Professor Stewart can."

HUNTLEY: So, you think it was a successful venture?

CROSS: Oh, yeah. It helped me in later years when I went out seeking employment, to look the person right in the eye that I was talking to. He taught us how to get dressed, to put on your best clothes...shirt tail in, not hanging out; hair combed.

HUNTLEY: Well, did all of the boys that went to Lincoln High School go through that course?

CROSS: No, it was on a volunteer basis.

HUNTLEY: A volunteer basis.

CROSS: We had probably 25 to 30 boys who had volunteered for that. This was after class assignments.

HUNTLEY: I see.

CROSS: I don't think there was any credit put on your record.

HUNTLEY: Strictly volunteer?

CROSS: Strictly volunteer.

HUNTLEY: For self-improvement what did you do after high school?

CROSS: After high school, I was called into the army. I spent just about 2 years less, 20 days.

HUNTLEY: What was that experience like, going from Lincoln High School to the U.S. Army? Where did you go when you left Arkansas?

CROSS: When I left Arkansas, I was inducted at Fort Robinson, Arkansas. I left 00:11:00the induction station and went to Louisiana for basic training. After being there for several months, I was shipped to Camp Kitermer, New Jersey, for an overseas assignment. I guess I was in Camp Kitermer for a week or two and we were having different training programs going on there. It surprised me when we got in Camp Kitermer, the ground was covered with snow. I said to myself, "this is going to give us an opportunity to stay indoors and get some good sleeping hours in," so I thought.

HUNTLEY: Did that happen?

CROSS: Oh, no. I found out you don't lay up in the army barracks because of the weather. You go rain or shine, sleet or snow for whatever assignment we have for 00:12:00that day.

HUNTLEY: Were there other friends, classmates other persons that you knew from Arkansas that were inducted the same time you were?

CROSS: I had a classmate and he and I went for examination at the same time. Our class gave us a going away party and I told them, "you don't know whether we're going to pass the examination or not."

HUNTLEY: You mean your class in high school?

CROSS: In high school. I said, "wait until we get examined and then"...but they wanted to give it before we went to the examination. Both of us failed the examination. My classmate failed cause he had a ligament cut in his left foot 00:13:00and I failed cause I was under weight. They said we will call you back in about 10 months.

HUNTLEY: This is after you finished high school?

CROSS: This is in the senior year when they called me back.

HUNTLEY: They did call you in your senior year. Did you finish though?

CROSS: Oh, yeah, I finished. They gave me, what you call that?

HUNTLEY: A GED?

CROSS: No, delayed process exemption for a few months.

HUNTLEY: Oh, I see, so that you could...and after graduation you reported.

CROSS: Right.

HUNTLEY: Then, you went to New Jersey and you eventually went overseas, I assume.

CROSS: Right.

HUNTLEY: Where did you go?

CROSS: We boarded ship there in New York. I forget how many days we were on that 00:14:00ship, but it felt like the journey would never end...and we went to the heart of France. So, when we got there, there was no trucks to meet us at the docks. So, we had to pick up our duffel bag and trucked it on by foot.

HUNTLEY: And you walked.

CROSS: We walked for several miles and then a truck met us at a certain point and then we got on the truck.

HUNTLEY: What kind of outfit were you in?

CROSS: I was in a general service engineer.

HUNTLEY: What were your duties? What were you trained to do?

CROSS: I was trained to be a company clerk. I never had too much field work. So, 00:15:00after I was in the army for several months, I introduced myself to the Chaplin and I told him, "I had been ordained as a minister and I would be happy to help you." He said well, "I need an assistant. Would you like to be my assistant?" "Well, I've just been assigned down at the regiment headquarters as a regimental assistant clerk." I said, "if there is any way you can get me, I would be happy to make a change." "Well, nobody turns a Chaplin down and I'll come by your place tomorrow and we'll see what happens from there."

HUNTLEY: Now when were you called to the ministry?

CROSS: I was called when I was 16 years old. So, this was...I went in the army and that was 1944.

HUNTLEY: So, that is during the second world war.

CROSS: Right. I was born in 1925 and in 1944 I was 19, when I was inducted.

HUNTLEY: So, what was your experience like in France? I assume, then, when you made the request, you then became his assistant.

CROSS: Well, I had to complete my basic training before I could go into his service. I was told to report to the Chaplin's office that next morning, which I 00:17:00did. I worked for him for several months and then they started checking records and found out that I hadn't completed my basic training. Then, I had to go back, leave the Chaplin's office and go back on the field for basic training.

HUNTLEY: In France?

CROSS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

CROSS: Right. So, the Chaplin thought it was an underhand cut against him. I said, "no, if anything I'm supposed to have, I want to take it. I can come down to the chapel and do the work after hours."

HUNTLEY: What were your duties?

CROSS: Just clerical work. Typing and assisting him at different times.

HUNTLEY: Was the Chaplin Black or White?

CROSS: He was Black.

HUNTLEY: Where was he from?

CROSS: He was from a little town in South Carolina, just before you cross over 00:18:00in North Carolina. I forget the name of the town he was from, but he was a Shore graduate. A real nice young man.

HUNTLEY: How long did you stay in France?

CROSS: I was there for about 8 to 10 months.

HUNTLEY: After you left France, where did you go?

CROSS: I left France because of the breakdown in the organizational structure. Our organization was being deactivated and I was being assigned to another outfit. Then, shipped to the Southwest Pacific. Some left the general service engineer and became an aviation engineer. Instead of building roads and bridges, 00:19:00we were building airstrips. I never left...

HUNTLEY: You were still in the clerical area?

CROSS: I was still in the clerical area.

HUNTLEY: How did you compare your experiences in France with that of the South Pacific?

CROSS: Well, the experience in France was real unique. I was part of H & S Company, headquarters service and company. I was asked if I could get a three day pass to go...this is before I got out of Louisiana...to go from camp, to a 00:20:00place where our state convention was being held. My pastor told me that if I could show up there, he would have an exam for my ordination. So, when I explained this to my first sergeant, he told me to check with the captain of the company. I checked with him and told him the situation and he said, "have you talked with Sergeant Smith," who was the first sergeant. I said, "yeah, he told me to talk to you." He said, "are you sure it won't be but three days?" I said, "it will be three, or less." So, he approved the pass and I left camp and went to the place in Arkansas, to meet with the convention. They catechized me for my 00:21:00ordination. I passed. There was one question I missed. I knew the answer they wanted me to give, but I gave the answer I felt comfortable giving, which was wrong.

HUNTLEY: So, when you then arrived in France, because you had gone through this 00:22:00process, that, then, sort of opened another door for you?

CROSS: Sure.

HUNTLEY: Then, when you left France and went to the South Pacific, were you still in that same capacity? Did you work with the Chaplin?

CROSS: I was still with the Chaplin.

HUNTLEY: How was the South Pacific different from France?

CROSS: Well, the South Pacific, where we landed, was nicknamed as "God Forsaken Island."

HUNTLEY: What island was it?

CROSS: Okinawa. It's a big barren place. I had to go to the general hospital once when I was there, and it felt like it took me a week to get there. It's 00:23:00such a huge island.

HUNTLEY: Did you see any action in any of the fields?

CROSS: I never saw any action, but I was in the action zone. So, I had one battle star, cause of location...of being near the fighting area. I never got to go near the direct action.

HUNTLEY: Did you have the opportunity to meet any of the native people that lived either in the area you were in, in France, or the South Pacific?

CROSS: Oh, yes.

HUNTLEY: What was that experience like?

CROSS: Just like changing from night to day. The people on Okinawa were kind of 00:24:00an outgoing kind of people. Some of them would come around the mess hall and...I was on KP duty one Sunday and they were standing in line at the garbage cans, collecting whatever we threw out. Rather than throwing it in the garbage cans, I had put it in a bag and hand it to them like that. The officer of the day saw me and told me, "no, don't do that. You will get court-martialed for that." He said, "you throw it in the garbage can. If they get it out of the garbage can, it's not your responsibility, but if you hand it to them and something happens to them, they can sue us." I thanked him for telling me and I never had liberality again.

HUNTLEY: What about the people in France? Did you find the same situation there?

CROSS: The people in France revealed some things to us that...to me and a lot of the soldiers, that it's kind of a dark spot on some of the characters of some of our superior officers. I met a gentleman there in a cafe once one day and he asked me if he could join me at my table. I said, "sure." I could speak very little French and he could speak very little English, but we were able to communicate. He asked me, "you seem to be a very intelligent young man." He 00:26:00said, "you're altogether different from what your officers are saying about you." I said, "what are they saying about me." He said, "not you personally, but about the Black soldiers. He said ya'll were ignorant, you were diseased, and you had tails and for all of our people to avoid you." "Well, so what?" I told that to some of the troops in our company later on. They just got excited and said, "oh these so and so people." That's our biggest problem, was these officers. If they would keep their mouths shut, things would be a lot better 00:27:00than they are. I didn't let it upset me and try to get revenge or anything. I just made sure I kept my head high and stayed out of difficult situations, so I wouldn't be accused of any violations of any kind.

HUNTLEY: What was the reception that Black soldiers usually received from the French people as well as people from Okinawa? Were they pleasant? Did they seem to accept what they had been hearing from the White soldiers and White officers? How did they receive you?

CROSS: Well, this particular gentleman told me. He said, "you are just the opposite of what your White officers have been portraying. I know then why they 00:28:00were making those kinds of arguments, because they didn't want any intermingling with Black soldiers and with the native people in our villages." As long as they could keep that separation line, it was better for them. I don't know what makes that person take that patriotical approach, but they got to keep everything divided one side or the other. In France and Belgium, places I visited, they didn't listen to any of those clichés that they heard, because I have a friend 00:29:00that ran a restaurant in Belgium, that's where one of our companies that I was stationed in was. This person that ran the restaurant...on my off day I would spend, more or less, most of the day there. They had a daughter that was about my age and she would be keeping the store, during the hours when traffic wasn't heavy. She said to me one day...I was just beginning to grow whiskers...she said, "you have a hair in a bump. Come on and let me pick it out." She came from behind the counter and got a stool and sat next to me and she said, "you turn 00:30:00around and lay your head back, so I can pick that hair out of that bump." So, I did. While I was laying with my head back, I heard the door slam and I raised my head in a horizontal position and saw three White soldiers leaving the door. Her response was, "blond soldiers no good."

HUNTLEY: Blond soldiers no good. When you then left the military, you went back to Arkansas. What did you do? You were offered a job, teaching?

CROSS: Right.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about that experience.

CROSS: I felt that I was unprepared to teach, but when they told me they could give me two years credit from the army experience...which would be helpful in me getting an emergency certificate...I was happy to accept the position. I didn't even ask them how much it paid. It was only after a week or two of working that it was only 90 dollars a month. That's a lot of work for 90 dollars.

HUNTLEY: How long did you remain there?

CROSS: Just for two months. July and August.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after that?

CROSS: I was already seeking admission to college in the fall. I thought about going to the University of Lincoln, Lincoln University in Pennsylvania and had 00:32:00been accepted. A friend of mine, who was a pastor...a pastor's son, who had been to college, Bishop College in Dallas, Texas. He found out I was going to Lincoln and he almost...we were driving along the highway, he just stopped the car and said, "Lincoln? Do you know anybody in Lincoln?" I said, "no, just the name." He said, "well, that's not a co-educational school. Anybody that's been in the army for two years, you don't need to get involved in the same sex kind of thing. You need to do a little sexual experience. Another thing about Lincoln, it's isolated from the city, 30 or 40 miles from the city and you will be separated 00:33:00from city churches. It's been my experience that when you get involved in the ministry, you need churches to give you that kind of experience." So, I kind of thought through what he was saying and the next day I sent off an application to Virginia Union University. I explained to them that my transcript would be sent, so they wouldn't have to write for it. I had talked to the principal, asked if he could forward it to the school. So, in two week's time, they had sent me a letter accepting my, saying they got the transcript accepting me as a student, but they didn't have any accommodations on the campus. If I prefer to have a 00:34:00city dwelling, they could find me a room in the city and when I show up on campus, I would get the information on where I lived. So, that's how I went to school.

HUNTLEY: That's in Richmond?

CROSS: Richmond, Virginia.

HUNTLEY: Why did you decided on Virginia Union?

CROSS: Well, this friend of mine had mentioned if he was going to school again, he would choose Virginia Union University, because he had met so many inanities and it would give them a good count of themselves. It attracted him. He said if he had a chance, he would go to Union. He said, "this is what I recommend for you to do." I said, "well, that's what I'll do." So, I did and ended up going to Virginia Union University.

HUNTLEY: What did you major in?

CROSS: Sociology and a minor in history.

HUNTLEY: How was that experience? You are now a man of the world. You've been in Europe. You've been in the Pacific. I'm assuming that most of the students were younger than you?

CROSS: They were.

HUNTLEY: What kind of experience was that for you?

CROSS: It was a good experience, I guess, cause I have always been the kind of kid that played with all the children in the neighborhood. I have been where they were. Whatever I said, I had to mean it and see that it was carried out. When assignments were given, I expected them to be given back at the time they 00:36:00were requested to be delivered back. So, you can be fair without being over considerate. I really enjoyed the teaching. The superintendent asked me several times if I wanted to stay. He could get me a permanent position with the school system. He kept on asking and I knew how to get him off my back. So, I asked him, I said, "tell you what. You've been begging me to stay on." I said, "if I stay on, will you equal out my salary with all the other teachers in the system?" Where he made his mistake was to send me over to Wright High School to pick up my check one month. While I was there, the other principal was looking 00:37:00for it in the box with the checks in it and I was looking over his shoulder and reading everyone he picked up until he got to mine. They were all several hundred dollars, you know, and he finally got to mine and it was 90 dollars. So, I said to the superintendent, "you equalize my salary with the other teachers, I might give some consideration to staying." That was the end of the subject.

HUNTLEY: You didn't have anymore difficulty?

CROSS: He didn't ask me anymore. Whether he could do it or could try to do it.

HUNTLEY: Was your salary equal to the Black teachers in the district?

CROSS: Well, this was an all-White high school, so I don't even know what the Blacks were making.

HUNTLEY: The checks that you saw...

CROSS: They were from that particular school.

HUNTLEY: You were asking for equalization in Black and White salaries?

CROSS: Right.

HUNTLEY: So, that would end the questions.

CROSS: That just cut the conversation off right there.

HUNTLEY: Now, in Virginia Union, you are now living in Richmond, which is a large city. This is probably the first time that you have lived in a city this size. What was that experience like? I'm assuming that by you're living in the city, you are an ordained minister. Did you have a relationship with churches in the area? What was that experience like being a college student, as well as....

CROSS: It was a good experience. In fact, the army experience helped to prepare me for my college days. I'm glad I did have that army training before I 00:39:00went to college, because I was a little more mature and was able to accept things more readily than if I had been much younger. I was given a lot of opportunities in college. Extracurricular activities...I joined an intercollegiate college group and the Union Theological Seminary and the girls school there at the seminar. We formed this mutual alliance to meet on a monthly basis and interact with each other, to see how well we adjusted to college life 00:40:00and meeting the needs.

HUNTLEY: Did you pastor in Richmond while you were there?

CROSS: I accepted a church in my senior year in school. It was some 60 or 70 miles from Richmond, closer to the marine base.

HUNTLEY: You were not married at this point?

CROSS: No.

HUNTLEY: Did you meet your wife in college?

CROSS: I met her in my junior year at college.

HUNTLEY: And your children were born in Richmond?

CROSS: In Richmond, right.

HUNTLEY: What point did you come to Birmingham? How did Birmingham come into this mix?

CROSS: When I was a pastor in this small church, in this residential area there in Richmond, part of Chesterfield County, I had done what I felt I could do with that. You don't want to give up your ministry, so the best thing I could do was find a church that could be, more or less, acceptable to my style and leadership. So, I made all fortitudes that I could, to see what was vacant in certain cities. I met a friend that had submitted my name to one of the members 00:42:00of the [inaudible] committee for Sixteenth Street. They met at a convention. This person just happened to ask my friend if he knew anybody that was looking for a church. He said, "yeah, I know a man I can recommend to you" and he gave him my name. They wrote to me and they had received my name as a person who was interested in making a pastoral move and asked me if I was still interested and to send them a resume. So, I mailed them that information and gave them two dates that I could come preach. They asked for two dates, cause if one didn't 00:43:00please them, they could choose the other. They gave me a date to come, so I went down and spoke. I delivered what I thought was the best sermon in my portfolio.

HUNTLEY: You had attended Union Theological Seminary?

CROSS: Virginia Union.

HUNTLEY: What year were you called here then?

CROSS: In 1962.

HUNTLEY: Were you coming here as pastor or assistant pastor?

CROSS: As pastor.

HUNTLEY: Now coming from Virginia to Birmingham...now Birmingham having the reputation that it has as far as race is concerned, did you have any doubts in 00:44:00your mind about accepting this position?

CROSS: None whatsoever, cause Richmond was just about as bad. Schools were segregated there, just like they were here. I had worked with the SNCC organization there.

HUNTLEY: You had worked with SNCC in Richmond?

CROSS: In Richmond. We had students that had tried to open up the downtown shopping center. They had gone to lunch counters to sit down and requests service and the waitress would refuse to wait on them. They sat there patiently. 00:45:00Finally, the manager told them they wouldn't be served and they had to leave. They refused to leave and he suggested that if they didn't leave, then he would have to call the police. They still refused to leave and the police was called and came and arrested them. So, this kind of created, kind of [inaudible] Virginia Union students being arrested downtown. Then, the organization got informed to come to their support. With the money to bail them out...

HUNTLEY: Were you part of that organization at the time, or were you one of those that were demonstrating?

CROSS: I was one of those that was demonstrating. I was a pastor of a church to so..

HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested?

CROSS: No, I was never arrested. I never did get involved in direct action movement. Such as, if a truck was being driven, you are going to stay in the way of a truck or bus.

HUNTLEY: But you did demonstrate, but the groups you demonstrated with were never arrested?

CROSS: No, never arrested.

HUNTLEY: So, when you...then, this I'm assuming is in 1961 or so. So, when you 00:47:00get the call to come to Sixteenth Street, you are already familiar with, you're sort of a veteran of, demonstrations?

CROSS: I had quite a number of hours credit in that department.

HUNTLEY: What was it like in making that move from Richmond to Birmingham, to Sixteenth Baptist Church?

CROSS: It was a move that was hard for me to make. I had a good church and was getting along well with them. They were not one of those do-nothing groups, they were ready to take action in whatever I recommended. So, I had left a rural church to accept this church in Richmond.

HUNTLEY: How large was your church?

CROSS: It had a membership of 300. That was large considering that the church I 00:48:00had had a membership of about 150 in the rural area. So, I was looking forward to the challenge of giving myself to full time ministry. I felt Sixteenth Street would give me that opportunity and provide a house for me and my family to live in and a reasonable salary. Those are some of the considerations.

HUNTLEY: So, in Richmond you were not full time.

CROSS: No.

HUNTLEY: What kind of work did you do?

CROSS: It was a full time pastorship, as such, but what people expect from a pastor. Services every Sunday and visiting the sick and shut-ins, attending meetings, that kind of thing. I was still full time just they had a part time pay period. I never will forget once we had a deacons meeting at that church and 00:49:00the chairman of the board opened up the meeting that night on me. I was the agenda that night. After the opening prayer and everything, he said, "well pastor we've been getting a lot of complaints that you are not visiting the sick members in our congregation." I said, "I don't know where you're getting your information from, but anybody that's sick in this congregation, that I give priority to my sick members. I don't go around making it a habit to go and visit people in their home, unless I know their husband or children will be there during the day." I just feel he had something...that somebody said to him that I 00:50:00hadn't been by to visit them. So, I just happened to mention it to him.

Now, we have on our bulletin each Sunday my phone number, address and a statement in there saying if anybody is sick please call the pastor or call the deacon. I said, "now I haven't gotten a call from anybody that I happen to know is sick now, other than our regular shut-ins. If you know of anybody, who is the one that said I wasn't visiting the sick." He never would give me that 00:51:00information. It's a good thing he brought it up, cause it gave me a chance to bring up a lot of things to the deacons that they hadn't even considered. I said to them, "you know I have limited time that I can give to the church, cause I work a full time job just like you do." So, one of the deacons said, "but we called you as full time pastor." "Yes, you did too, but you're giving me part time pay." Then, he asked the question that I couldn't have answered any better. He said, "what is a full time pastor supposed to receive?." I said, "I'm glad you asked that question, so I laid the book out." One, two, three. I said, "I 00:52:00don't get this, I don't get this, and I don't get this." The chairman said, "well, pastor these are some things that you have to stay here and earn. You can't just expect to receive those just coming in." I said, "no, these are things the church is supposed to have for the pastor as soon as he signs up to come." I said, "I don't get any of this. I can't live on and support my family on what ya'll are paying me. So, I have to work another job."

HUNTLEY: What job did you work?

CROSS: I was a cardiac assistant. I was working with a cardiac surgeon there at the hospital in Richmond. We did open heart surgery and my job was to prepare 00:53:00the pump and get it ready for the operation and be on the floor around the table to see that the supply to the pump when it was requested. I also took samples that were taken and carried them to the lab for examination and then cleaned the pump up after surgery. That was my job. So, the days that we would have surgery, I would have to report to work at 5:00 that morning, cause the machine we used had to be sterilized.

HUNTLEY: So, you arrived here in Birmingham in 1962?

CROSS: Correct.

HUNTLEY: What month did you come?

CROSS: It was May.

HUNTLEY: May of 1962. Ok. This is just sort of preceding the....well, there are 00:54:00things that are sort of happening in Birmingham at the time. The Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights has been very active.

CROSS: Still very active.

HUNTLEY: The students of Miles College in 1962 developed a selective buying campaign in downtown Birmingham. So, you were coming into a situation that was rather active. What was your role? Did you get involved at that particular point?

CROSS: Well, the church elected me in January of 1962. The night I received the call...I got a telephone call from the chairman of the pulpit committee letting me know that the church had called me as pastor. They had just had a moment of 00:55:00the Freedom Riders' bus in Anniston a day or two before that. He was saying to me, "don't let that stop you from coming to Birmingham, because Birmingham wasn't as bad as it was in Anniston." "No, that's more of an indication to make me want to come more. It hasn't dampened my spirits one bit."

HUNTLEY: So, that in fact was upper most in your mind as you decided to come to Birmingham?

CROSS: I came to one of the meetings the first week I was here. From that initial meeting, I was given a position on the strategy committee, that made all the plans for the....

HUNTLEY: Movement, the Alabama Christian Movement.

CROSS: Of course, at that time Dr. King was, had been invited to bring SCLC in to give leadership to the local movement. So, this was a week or so after I was here that Dr. King came here with his stand. He had a cross section meeting with the leaders here in the Black community, teachers, doctors, lawyers, schoolteachers.

HUNTLEY: What was your relationship with Fred Shuttlesworth?

CROSS: Other than working in the movement we had no relationship. Of course, I was, didn't know I was going to get involved so soon. The first night I came to the meeting they were telling me the difficulty they were having in getting 00:57:00places to meet and were wondering if they could meet at Sixteenth Street Baptist Church some. I just felt that every church would voluntarily give them that permission. I said, "sure, I would be happy to have you." So, they scheduled the next meeting there.

HUNTLEY: What did your deacon board say when they scheduled the meeting for the Sixteenth Street?

CROSS: I could have gotten in a little bit of trouble at that point, but they let me know they had a committee at the church that supervised the lending of the church out to an organization to keep down any conflict. I said well, they needed to know that night. I felt being pastor, I had the authority to give them permission to meet. That was the way we dealt with it at the time.

HUNTLEY: So, you did have the authority and you took the authority to allow the movement to have meetings at Sixteenth Street. Prior to then, meetings were not held at Sixteenth Street.

CROSS: That's what I soon found out. I felt that there were a lot of churches that would allow them to meet there but were not large enough to accommodate the crowd. In fact, Sixteenth Street was too large for a while, until momentum built up to a peek. Then, the balcony was overflowing at times.

HUNTLEY: What's your most memorable occurrences during that first year, or so, with your involvement with Sixteenth Street and the movement?

CROSS: Well, first thing I saw was that we were in a meeting one day and this is 00:59:00when Dr. King decided to start inviting the children in. So, the building was packed and the police, fire department and several higher representatives of the police department came and wanted to speak to me. So, I was in the study and they came in and was asking if I could dismiss the meeting, cause they were breaking fire regulations. That created some problems. I said, "what regulations? We can make sure we won't break anymore regulations." Well now, 01:00:00this is not my business. I'm just giving them permission to meet here. I said, "if there are regulations that are being ignored we need to know so we can announce to stay away from certain areas." So, this captain pleaded with me and said, "you're the pastor and you can call this meeting off right now." I said, "no, it's not my meeting and I can't call it off. Dr. King is the only one that can call this meeting off." I refused to do it. We got a lot of calls from the police, that they had received calls that bombs had been planted in the church 01:01:00and they wanted us to dismiss our group so they could search the church. This was on Sundays.

HUNTLEY: Did that happen? Did they...there were bomb threats prior to the actual bombing on September 1963, where you actually had to let people...I mean vacate the building and the police come in to check the building.

CROSS: That's correct. We had a couple of those. On each of those occasions, nothing was found. By getting people upset like that, we didn't even ask them to come back. We left out, that was it for that day. The offering had been taken and it happened just before time to preach. I don't know whether it was just one 01:02:00of those situations to harass us and make us get a little jittery, or what it was.

HUNTLEY: The day of the bombing where the four children lost their lives, did you have a threat at all?

CROSS: Not that I know about receiving.

HUNTLEY: Were you in the building that morning?

CROSS: Yes, I was in the building. I left the study about 15 minutes before this happened. I went and sat in on the women's bible study class that met on the Sixteenth Street side of the building. I sat in their class that morning. It was a wonderful lesson too, "a love that forgives." People seem to have love, but they don't know how to forgive.

HUNTLEY: So, you were in that class when the bomb actually went off?

CROSS: Correct.

HUNTLEY: Can you explain what that was like?

CROSS: Well, it was an experience that I couldn't believe it was a bomb at first. We'd been having a little difficulty with our hot water heater in the kitchen area and I thought it was the tank that had exploded down there. Then, in a few seconds, I didn't smell gas fumes, I smelled powder fumes. Immediately, I recognized that the hot water heater didn't blow up, it was a bomb or something that went off. I jumped up and said, "let's clear the building right away! Let's get out!" Then, I started to run downstairs to check on the children below, to see if they had gotten trapped in a room or anything. I criss-crossed 01:04:00from one side to another, going from one room to another and I didn't see a single person in any of the rooms. Then, I left out going outside and when I got outside, I saw what happened. There were some people that were injured, and they were being taken to the hospital. Then, one of the civil defense workers came up to me and told me there was a big hole down on the east side of the church and wanted me to go look at it. I said, "let me go alone." I wanted to calm the crowd down, cause they were getting unruly. Some began picking up bricks and throwing them at the police.

HUNTLEY: A large crowd had gathered?

CROSS: Yeah, and it was making it almost impossible to do anything constructive, 01:05:00because of the crowd jamming in, you know...making threats against the police and if not threats, then verbally abusing them, accusing them. Saying, "yeah they know who did it! We'll get even with them." I said, "you don't know who did it." So, I got on the bull horn and started telling people the best thing that they could do was to vacate the premises and give the police and the persons working to clear things up room to work. I said, "whoever did this, they will be brought to justice." So, then, I went around to look at the hole in the east side of the church. All I had to do was just bend over slightly and could walk 01:06:00right in. One of the defense workers said to me, "don't go in there Rev. Maybe another bomb will go off!" This was the standard procedure, that they would have a blast to try to draw a crowd and another blast would go off, once the crowd got there. That kept ringing in my head that, that maybe what they had expected to happen that day...that they were setting one to draw you and another one to damage you. When they told me not to go in there cause there might be...I said, "no, I must go in, cause if there are bodies in here, we want to find them." So, my bravery gave them more courage to come in. We saw this bunch of debris there and they started digging down in there and less then two feet down we saw a 01:07:00body. We took that one out. They brought a stretcher in and dug down a little bit more and saw another one. So, they were all on top of each other, as if they had hugged each other. I didn't know any of them at the time, cause of the way that explosion had...

HUNTLEY: You couldn't recognize them?

CROSS: They looked much older than they were and when we got to the morgue, a lot of them had to identify them by their clothes, or if they were wearing a ring or watch or something of that kind. As soon as we got those four bodies out, the first body was taken out through the crater, but the crowd was so 01:08:00massive down there, we realized that the others needed to be taken out on the opposite side. So, we took them out on the west side of the church building and put them in the ambulance on that side. Just as we got the last body out, we heard what appeared to be moaning and groaning back in the toilet stalls and we went back there and that was Sarah Collins. I didn't recognize who she was at the time, blood was streaming down her cheeks and she did seem incoherent. She 01:09:00said she wasn't groaning, she was calling her sister, Addie Mae. I said, "it sounded like you were groaning" and she said, "I wasn't groaning, I was calling Addie. Where are you Addie?" So, we got her out and took her down to the hospital. They hospitalized her and kept her there for several weeks. They gave her an artificial eye and kept close treatment on her and she was in the hospital for several weeks. There were other people that were injured, mildly injured. Another passerby was injured. He was walking along that side of the church...wasn't even coming to the church, when the blast occurred. It just 01:10:00broke his right arm. He was traveling south on Sixteenth Street. He was lucky that his head wasn't blown off.

HUNTLEY: He was right there near, where the blast took place?

CROSS: I think he had passed that blast area. He was up there near the front of the church, where the bulletin board is. It was quite a day. A day that will never be forgotten by this church, or by the nation.

HUNTLEY: Well, we've covered an awful lot of territory today. Is there anything else that you would like to say before we conclude?

CROSS: I'm just happy after 14 years of waiting for justice to be done, it broke 01:11:00through and one individual was arrested, Robert Chambliss and found guilty of being the perpetrator of that bombing. He was only charged for the murder of one of the children. I guess that was designed so that it would get him on one and they could charge him for the others. He was giving a life in prison sentence. I was told at that time, there were others sitting in the courtroom that were even as guilty as Robert Chambliss and they would be brought to trial as soon as they 01:12:00could find proper evidence to convict them. Many years have gone by since 1963 and 1974 and finally there's a redoing, a reopening of the case to try others. I've been called by several reporters, on what is my feeling about this, since it's been so long, how could this make us feel any better. I said, "as long as we know that there are persons out there who are guilty of committing this atrocity, we can never sleep comfortably at night until they are brought to trial." I said, 'I am never one to try to cut off justice from being beated 01:13:00out." So, I just hope that others can be convicted of this hideous crime.

HUNTLEY: I want again to thank you for taking time out of your schedule to come to sit and talk with me. You've been very, very helpful.

CROSS: Thank you for the invitation to come.

HUNTLEY: Thank you.