Jesse Champion Sr.

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mr. Jesse Champion, Sr. for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley and we are at Miles College. Today is November 1, 1995.

Thank you Mr. Champion for taking time out of your busy schedule to sit with us today.

CHAMPION: It's my pleasure.

HUNTLEY: I would like to start by asking you some general questions about your family background. Were your parents from Alabama?

CHAMPION: For the most part, my mother came from Georgia and my father is an Alabamian and I was reared in Alabama, so to speak.

HUNTLEY: Were you born in Birmingham, Alabama?

CHAMPION: I was born in Dolomite, which is now a part of Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sister did you have?

CHAMPION: There were four boys and four girls.

HUNTLEY: And where did you fit in all of that?

CHAMPION: Well, I was the third boy; out of the eight, I must have been the fifth.

HUNTLEY: So, you must have been right in the middle?

CHAMPION: Right in the middle, correct.

HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your parent's education.

CHAMPION: My parents had little education. My mother stopped school early because, she had to work in the fields with her parents. She stopped at about the fifth grade and my father was about the same. So, that is as far as they got with an education, they never pursued any farther than what they had accomplished to that point.

HUNTLEY: Well, that was not unusual at that time.

CHAMPION: No, that was not unusual. It was one of those things where people had to work to survive and that came first. You went to school later if you had time or the family could fit you into the program.

HUNTLEY: Absolutely. What about the occupations of your parents? Did your mother work outside the home?

CHAMPION: My mother did the domestic type work. She washed and ironed for the physician that delivered me and other Whites in the community. We lived in the mining camp in Dolomite and my father worked in the mines at Woodward, in the same area.

HUNTLEY: So, you then would have been a rather stable family at this time, your father working, y ourmother at home and working. You had a large family, of course.

CHAMPION: Yes. We had a large family and she was working, because it was out of necessity that he worked. As I recall, the house that I remember when I was very small, had no more than three rooms and everybody had to do whatever in order to 00:03:00keep things going.

HUNTLEY: And you lived in Dolomite?

CHAMPION: I lived in Dolomite until I was nine months of age. That is the time when my father lost his eyesight in the mines and after that my mother could not shoulder all the responsibilities. She had two first cousins who did not have any children and they came out, and she said mother said, "Well, you can help me to bring him up, but I will not let you adopt him." And the samething happened to two of my sisters...this was three sisters and neither had children so, this is how we got separated from the others in the family one to leave home at the age of nine months.

HUNTLEY: So, you then lived with your aunt?

CHAMPION: It was my mother's first cousin. But I was the first.

HUNTLEY: First cousin. Oh, I see.

CHAMPION: Two sisters children, they were.

HUNTLEY: And where did the other children go?

CHAMPION: One went to Lynch, Kentucky and the other went to Baxter, West Virginia, but I went to Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: Did you see each other periodically?

CHAMPION: Yes. We would see each other at Christmas time and some of the other times, when we as Blacks would normally take as vacations and visit relatives. They tried to keep us as close as possible so that we would know exactly who our parents were. They told me at an early age, who my parents were and I would make visits out to Dolomite on weekends, when I did not have to go to school. I would ride what was then, known as Summers' Busline. After riding the transit system, the trolley cars, which was what we had in Birmingham and I would go on into Fairfield then, I would catch the bus and go on into Dolomite to see my father.

HUNTLEY: So, there were five children left at home with your mother.

CHAMPION: Yes. Yes.

HUNTLEY: Can you tell me what community you grew-up in?

CHAMPION: I lived in the Smithfield community.

HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what it was like, growing up in Smithfield?

CHAMPION: It was very rugged, because the roads were unpaved and in front of my house there was a ditch. And now, the streets have been paved and the ditch is covered, but no sidewalks or anything like that. That's the time when everybody 00:05:00would go bare footed in the summer months and put their shoes on if they were going to church. You did not dare wear them every day of the week. It was a kind of rough life, because at that time, we had the WPA, and we had food stamps that helped us to survive...and that's when I really realized what food stamps were all about. Because, we would get those commodities that had written on them, "NOT TO BE SOLD". And even some of the clothing we had to wear... my mother... in as much as I was living what they would call, "In town", she would take the clothing that my other brothers would get and give me the ones that did not have the "NOT TO BE SOLD" written on them. They would have the "NOT TO BE SOLD" written across the front of the overalls. But she gave me some of the jeans as we call them today. And that's what I would wear, as to not expose and let everybody know that we were one of those in need of such services.

HUNTLEY: Right. Now, this is during the depression?

CHAMPION: Yes. That was during the depression.

HUNTLEY: So then, that was not unusual to see people with that....

CHAMPION: Oh no, that was not unusual. Those were the days of the Broganes and 00:06:00everybody wore them in order to have so meeting that would last a long time and that would keep your feet warm, because we had real snows, then. And it was nothing unusual, at all.

HUNTLEY: You started school at Graymont?

CHAMPION: Graymont Elementary School. They had a Graymont, which was for Whites, the one that's not in use, right now. And then we had the Graymont, which is now, Hill School and that's where I got my elementary education.

HUNTLEY: Tell me. What do you remember about Graymont, which is presently Hill School?

CHAMPION: Well, it was one of those where we did not have all the facilities like the y had at the White schools. We had the "outdoor toilets" and the boys would have to go outside and

get coal for the potbellied heaters for the classrooms. And the floors had to be oiled, not waxed. Sometimes if you wanted to get out of class you would ask a teacher to let you go out to help mop the floors putting that oil in them...it was something of an experience.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your teachers?

CHAMPION: My teachers, I remember quite well, because they were quite serious 00:07:00about what was going on, as far as trying to get an education over to you and letting you know the importance of the same. We had home economics for the girls and manual training for the boys. Then, we had one room where you learned how to sew some of the items like pants and you made a suit by the time you graduated and l learned some shoe repairing ... it was quite an experience learning more than what they are allowing teachers to teach now in elementary schools.

HUNTLEY: So along with academics, you had a trade?

CHAMPION: Yes.

HUNTLEY: You mentioned, your father lost his sight when you were a very young child. Did he remain at home?

CHAMPION: Yes. He did remain at home. And he did something that was illegal and everybody who knows him and we get into a conversation about it I tell them, "Yes, my daddy sold booze". Because he was blind, the county officers let him 00:08:00know that it was okay as long as it didn't go too far. They would let him know when they were going to come around to inspect to find out who was running a "shot house" so to speak and that's how he brought in extra moneyselling booze, cigarettes, candy, and peanuts to assist my mother with what she was able to bring in. And that's why we also, left where I was born and moved into what they called," a boarding house" which was furnished by Woodward Iron Company for people that were not able to buy their own homes or to pay rent, so to speak.

HUNTLEY: It was a part of the company's housing. Is that right?

CHAMPION: Yes. Yes.

HUNTLEY: Woodward had company housing on the northside of Jones Valley as well as on the southside of Jones Valley and you lived on the northside. Is that right?

CHAMPION: Right.

HUNTLEY: When you finished school at Graymont, where did you go?

CHAMPION: From there, I when to Parker High School.

HUNTLEY: Parker High School. Parker High School is of course, very well noted.

CHAMPION: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Parker High School?

CHAMPION: The thing I remember most was going out for the football team when I 00:09:00really didn't weigh enough, but I wanted to keep up with the gang.

HUNTLEY: How much were you weighing at the time?

CHAMPION: I was weighing about 125 pounds. And that was a bit lite for me to be wanting to play on the line, but I did make the team and that's where I played during football season. And after that, I went to the band and would play in the band, as well.

HUNTLEY: And you became quite an accomplished musician.

CHAMPION: Yes. That's where I got my start, as far as being a musician. Working under Fess Whatley, he taught me the ropes and I ended up working with him in his first orchestra. And I learned how to value the dollar and how to not let it go as fast as you would normally without having someone giving you the guidelines you'd need.

HUNTLEY: Fess Whatley is very well known, internationally.

CHAMPION: Yes, he is well known all over the U.S.

HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about Fess Whatley. What was it like being a protege of Fess Whatley?

CHAMPION: Well, Fess Whatley was a man who look ed out for everybody, be they male or female. He would let the boys know that there is a time when you don't put your hands on the girls-- you go up to your classes where you are suppose to 00:10:00be going and don't play around. There are certain things you don't do and you give them the utmost respect. And I believed that's something everybody remembered. And the girls would respect you, also because of that. He also taught everybody how to be thrifty, you know, working with your hands. Not to be the regular run of the mill type of individual. Punctuality as well.

I am reminded of that sometimes, now by J.L. Lowe. He says, "You came along during the Fess Whatley era, you like to be on time or before time so you will not be classified as one who comes late".

HUNTLEY: That's important.

CHAMPION: Yes. Very definitely.

HUNTLEY: What was your instrument?

CHAMPION: Clarinet and drums.

HUNTLEY: Was Fess one who was a stickler for time and for precision in terms of development... I remember when I grew up, Parker's band was always meticulously 00:11:00dressed and they had all kinds of precision and of course, this was after Fess Whatley's time. I was wondering did he set the foundation for Parker, and know what it would eventually become?

CHAMPION: Well, he reminded everybody that they were supposed to be in uniform at all times, because we had uniforms, then. And along with the uniforms came your personality as to what you were suppose to be about and how you were supposed to carry yourself. And he was that man that was concerned about everything being as it should be. I remember we would have band practice in the room above the printing shop. And if someone made a bad note, he could come right upstairs and go to that individual who made it without being told. He have that kind of sensitive ear, as far as music goes.

HUNTLEY: You said the band room was above the printing shop?

CHAMPION: Yes, it was above the printing shop in the Boys Building, as they called it.

HUNTLEY: And he would be in the printing shop?

CHAMPION: Yes. Yes.

HUNTLEY: Was he the instructor of printing?

CHAMPION: He was the instructor of printing, yes.

HUNTLEY: Did you take that class?

CHAMPION: No, I didn't. I didn't take printing. I took tailoring under Melvin Caswell at that time.

HUNTLEY: Would Fess Whatley be one of those individuals that would be a role model for you?

CHAMPION: Very definitely , I would think so.

HUNTLEY: Were there others you would remember that were teachers at Parker at the time that stand out in your mind?

CHAMPION: Gus Ward and Melvin Caswell; I remember those quite vividly, because I worked with Me lvi n Caswell as a musician and Gus Ward was one who would take care of the finances for the school. He would take money to the bank and I had classes in the carpentry shop there and I learned quite a bit from him, as far as mannerisms and what you should be about as a male student.

HUNTLEY: Living in Smithfield at the time, teenage young man growing up in 00:13:00Smithfield, what was it like?

CHAMPION: It was like I think we need it to be, now. There was a certain time we got off the streets without having a curfew. Everybody was somewhat fearful of the policemen. Whenever they would come by and see you standing on comers, they would tell you, "Okay, it's time to go home". And they did not have to tell you but one time, the next time they came by you would have started moving before they had a chance to tell you anything. Because nine times out of ten you were just there, not necessarily waiting to rob or steal or anything like that. But, you knew you were suppose to be at home and not hanging on the comers. We would not have as much crime as we do, now because of these things.

HUNTLEY: Was the police looked at by your community as one to be there to protect and serve?

CHAMPION: I would think so. To protect and serve and they were fearful of what would happen to them if they were not going down the right paths. As far as right and wrong was concern.

HUNTLEY: Were there ever any situations in the neighborhood where the police became an adversary to the community?

CHAMPION: I don't recall there being such.

HUNTLEY: After you finished high school at Parker , what did you do?

CHAMPION: After finishing Parker, I went to Morehouse. Like some of the people are still doing today, wherever your friends go; that's where you want to go. And you try to go there. So, the money that I had from having served in the US Navy. I was working with a friend of mine from Ensley, Valentine who was a musician. I played a few gigs with him to make extra money. But when my money ran out, I had gone on the road with an orchestra. And I heard about scholarships being offered at Alabama A & M University. It was Alabama A & M College at the time. So, I came home and I was luck y enough to get a scholarship and I went from Morehouse to Alabama A & M where I graduated.

HUNTLEY: So, you went to Morehouse on the GI Bill?

CHAMPION: No, it wasn't the GI Bill. I paid my way.

HUNTLEY: Okay. But you had gone to the Navy prior to going to Morehouse?

CHAMPION: Yes. Prior to going to Morehouse.

CHAMPION: Well, I thought it was something that I'd wanted, because I volunteered. I knew I didn't like the Army and I had to volunteer for something. So, I knew I had to volunteer for the Air Force or the Navy and there again, a lot of my friend were volunteers for the Navy so I did, also. I had never been to California so, I was glad to get that long train ride to California that was quite exciting. And to get there and being so far away from home was also something new.

HUNTLEY: Was this directly out of high school that you joined the Navy?

CHAMPION: No. It was not directly out, it was during the summer months.

HUNTLEY: What was that transition like then, from high school senior to a sailor?

CHAMPION: It was quite interesting, but not as much as I had thought it would be. I felt I was missing something. That was some of the questions I was asked 00:16:00when they asked me, "What would I do if I got out of the Navy". Because I left the Navy on the basis of having headaches that were so severe, I felt I couldn't handle everything I was suppose to be handling. So, they asked, "what would you do if we let you out"? And I said, "Go to school". And that's what I was aspiring at that time to get into somebody's college.

HUNTLEY: So, how long did you spend in the Navy?

CHAMPION: A year and six months.

HUNTLEY: So then, off to Morehouse.

CHAMPION: Yes. Off to Morehouse.

HUNTLEY: After Morehouse, then your money gave out so, that's when you went to Alabama A&M on scholarship?

CHAMPION: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Did Alabama A&M have a band similar to the one at Alabama State?

CHAMPION: It was just getting started back, because it had been years since they had a band. That was in 1947 when I got the scholarship that we started the band. We got new uniforms and everything that they did not have to pass on down to somebody else. So that was quite interesting and a new venture, as well.

HUNTLEY: So, you graduated from Alabama A&M in 1950?

CHAMPION: From A&M in 1950, yes.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after graduation?

CHAMPION: After graduation, I started working at Carver High School in Gadsden and after working there that first year, I started going to the University of Notre Dame working on grad courses during the summer months to further my career as an English instructor, since I

majored in English at A&M.

HUNTLEY: Alabama had a policy where going to graduate school, you could not go to graduate school at the University of Alabama. But, they had it situated where they would actually pay your tuition out of state. ls that how you went to Notre Dame?

CHAMPION: No. I had no assistance from the State, per se. It was through the priest at the parish where I belonged. It was Immaculate Conception, better known to most people as Immaculata, the high school. And Father assisted me in 00:18:00getting a fellowship to The University of Notre Dame. That's how I was able to go there.

HUNTLEY: How many summers did you go?

CHAMPION: I went there two summers.

HUNTLEY: Did you remain at Carver?

CHAMPION: I remained at Carver four years until I finally got back home and I got a job here, in Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: What did you do in Birmingham?

CHAMPION: I started working at Council School in Ensley.

HUNTLEY: What area were you, English?

CHAMPION: No, it wasn't English. I couldn't get into my field. I got into an area where I had quite a bit of experience and they felt I could handle the job. I as a social studies teacher and band director.

HUNTLEY: I see. How long were you there?

CHAMPION: I was there for four years.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after that four years?

CHAMPION: After four years, I had a run-in with the "men in blue".

HUNTLEY: Will you tell me about that incident?

CHAMPION: It was one afternoon in April 1963, during the demonstrations. I was 00:19:00going out to Holy Family Hospital, my oldest daughter had just been born and at the time they did not have televisions in the room, so I was taking a small television to my wife. And in the process, I saw one of my students in the back of a car that was driven by a White guy and his companion was White, as well. So they stopped at a telephone booth and they were calling the police, but I didn't know that at the time. I asked what was going on and they told me that they had one of my student and that he had been caught till-tapping at one of the five and dime stores in Ensley.

HUNTLEY: What is till-tapping?

CHAMPION: Till-tapping is when the cashier leaves the drawer open to the cash register and the person catches that person not on guard and puts his hand into the cash register and takes money. So happened, that he ran and they were about to make a citizen's arrest as they explained it to me. So, I said, "Since 00:20:00neither of you are policemen, will you let the kid out of the car"? And they were reluctant to do so, so I pushed the seat toward the dashboard so the guy could get out of the backseat and he ran. That's what got everything started. And when the police did come, they had gotten instructions from Bull Conner to take me to jail, because he was going to teach me a lesson. And what he meant was teachers were not suppose to be apart of the Civil Rights Movement; especially when it came down to demonstrations.

HUNTLEY: So, he was teaching you a lesson for all the other teachers?

CHAMPION: Yes. Yes. And he said I should have known better and my intelligence should have told me to stay out of it and not to have anything to do with it.

HUNTLEY: Now, you were arrested, how long did you stay in jail?

CHAMPION: I was incarcerated for just a number of hours. I will say about five or six hours when they let me out on my recognizance. Then I had to go to court after that and in the process, I did not win out of the trial, because they 00:21:00charged me with inciting to riot. Even though, the guy said I did not use any profanity and no blows were struck or anything along those lines.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about the trial, the courtroom scene. What was that like, was it a jury trial?

CHAMPION: It was not a jury trial, it was the decision of the judge.

HUNTLEY: Did you testify in your defense?

CHAMPION: I think I answered a few questions. Not like the testimony being given today.

HUNTLEY: What were some of the questions that were asked of you?

CHAMPION: They asked me what was I doing in the area and I told them I was out to see my wife and to take her a television in the hospital where she had just delivered our new-born child. And I told them that I was just trying to find out what was happening to a student of mine. And I did not aide in his get-away and I did not know if he was guilty or not guilty, but he ran and there was nothing I could do in light of catching him and I was not there to start a riot.

HUNTLEY: Were the police asked questions, as well?

CHAMPION: I don't recall, exactly.

HUNTLEY: Were you found innocent or guilty of inciting to riot?

CHAMPION: I was found guilty.

HUNTLEY: And what did that mean?

CHAMPION: That meant the superintendent of education was informed to instruct me to resign or be fired. I had to tum in a letter of resignation so it would not be on my record that I was fired from the Birmingham City School System.

HUNTLEY: Now, you were a family man at that time, you had a new born child, a wife, and a family.

CHAMPION: Yes. And a son that was ten years of age at the time.

HUNTLEY: So, how did you manage to take care of your children and your family?

CHAMPION: Well, all the Black principals rallied to the cause whereby they took up enough money from their instructors that kept me from being homeless -- took care of my house note and bought groceries. And the bills I had to pay, I had no 00:23:00problem with that because of the money that they had taken up from the teachers who were concerned about what had happened to me.

HUNTLEY: And how long did that last?

CHAMPION: It went on from April until I left in August and took a job in Michigan.

HUNTLEY: So, as a result of your encounter with the police, you had to leave Birmingham?

CHAMPION: Yes. I wanted to stay in the profession I was involved with at the time. So, I went to Detroit seeking a job there, because I had a sister in-law that lived there. And I was offered a job at Highland Park Junior College, but it so happened they were paying more money in Flint, Michigan. So, I went to Flint Southwestern where I got a job as an English teacher and a debate coach.

HUNTLEY: This is Southwestern High School?

CHAMPION: Yes. High School.

HUNTLEY: Prior to going to Michigan, did you ever participate in any of the activities that were going on in Birmingham?

CHAMPION: Yes, I would. I would go to some of the mass meetings they were having 00:24:00and any meeting whereby we found that some of our people were involved in the Civil Rights Movement and they needed support in a manner that would not cause anyone to suffer because of being involved.

HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what a mass meeting was like?

CHAMPION: It was like a church rally, so to speak, where everyone would listen to the main speaker. It was something to get the people all pepped up as to what we were all about and trying to get seats at the lunch counters and this kind of thing and letting them know what the movement was all about. And to remain non-violent in whatever their endeavors might be as far as following the instructions and the dictates of Martin Luther King. And those who were heading the Southern Christian Leadership Conference along with the Alabama Christian Movement.

HUNTLEY: Right. Did you participate in demonstrations? Did you march?

CHAMPION: Yes, I did.

HUNTLEY: Tell me how. Just describe what it was like to be a part of the demonstrations.

CHAMPION: It was a great feeling that came over me. knowing that I was doing 00:25:00something that could possibly help those that would have to come behind me. And those that were not getting involved, because somebody would reap the benefits of my involvement, I felt and that's why I even took a part of the March from Selma to Montgomery. And it was raining after we got there and we had to setup tents, this kind of thing is what I remember most vividly, because of the impact that it had on me and my life, so to speak.

HUNTLEY: The demonstration that you took part in 1963, was that after you had resigned from your position as teacher at Council School?

CHAMPION: Yes. Yes.

HUNTLEY: And did the example that was being set by using you did that have an impact upon other individuals that you knew that were teachers?

CHAMPION: I think it did to some degree, they did not get involved to the extent 00:26:00that I became involved. But they were supporters of those that did become involved and they were relaying the message as to what it was all about, as far as the movement was concerned and what the benefits might be and we kept the fight going in a non-violent manner.

HUNTLEY: If you had the opportunity, would you change anything that took place during that particular period of your life?

CHAMPION: If I had the opportunity, would I do so, now?

HUNTLEY: Yes. Would you do the same thing or would you not participate?

CHAMPION: I would participate. Yes. I would. Because, I think there's a way one can go about it without having to be afraid of what might happen to him. At the time, l did not even think about my job being taken away from me or being pushed to the point where [ had to give it up. I was thinking of the end result of the movement was all about. And that's what I would do if! had the opportunity to do so again. Because we need the great wakening of letting everybody know what we should be all about and some of the things we should do for ourselves, instead 00:27:00of waiting for somebody else to do it for us.

HUNTLEY: When you left Birmingham and went to Michigan, how long were you there?

CHAMPION: I was in Michigan from '63 until '70.

HUNTLEY: And you returned to Birmingham at that time?

CHAMPION: Yes. I returned to Birmingham to live in '70, but I came back during the year '69. That's when I applied for a job at WBRC. At the time we had no Black news reporters or Black announcers at what we called, "White radio stations". It was in December when I applied at the urging of the NAACP. And I was told they did not have any openings and they didn't look forward to having any in the near future. So, I told them, "Thank you very much". And I still have that letter where they wrote me in January saying where they did find there was an opening at WBRC, which is now, WERC radio and asked me if l would reconsider. So, I did and came back in February 1970 and took the job there as a news reporter.

HUNTLEY: What was that like being the first Black news reporter?

CHAMPION: It was like being what we call, "the token". The only other Black face was the custodian and we had a news team of three men and I was the only Black. And to showcase the fact that they had a Black, I was given a news car which was white and there was a Black guy driving it making City Council meetings and covering County Commission meeting s, fires, fights, or what have you. It was quite an experience. because I had the opportunity to be showcased again to the Birmingham Rotary Club or the Kiwanis, one of the two where I was the main speaker. And there I was the only Black speaking to this mass ive White audience and it was something to behold, because 1 had no idea I would be chosen for something like that, but I was happy to serve in that capacity, hoping that maybe l could serve as an example and help somebody else have as much get up and go about themselves as I had to go ahead and reach such heights.

HUNTLEY: What was your relationship with other Black radio personalities at the 00:29:00time who were on Black radio stations?

CHAMPION: The relationship was about the same, because I started out in radio, in 1953 at WJLD and I was remembered from that and having been a musician working around the city with an orchestraI stayed in close contact with most of the guys and I knew them personally. So, they were telling me that they were glad to see me move into, possibly opening doors for someone else. Because there was only one other at the time, along with myself he was hired in '69 and I was hired in '70.

HUNTLEY: Were there any racial encounters that you remember in those first days when you worked with WBRC?

CHAMPION: No, I don't recall that I had any. Only with Shelton down in Tuscaloosa when we had a news conference and I was assigned to go and cover it.

HUNTLEY: And Shelton is?

CHAMPION: He was Czar with the Klan. And he told Davenport Smith, who was our 00:30:00news director that whatever you do, don't send that Nigger down here. Because word had gotten out that they had a Black news reporter. Everything else had worked out smoothly, because l had been seen enough times for them to know I was a native of Birmingham and I did not

have any trouble out of anyone.

HUNTLEY: What was the encounter like with Shelton?

CHAMPION: I didn't get a chance to go down.

HUNTLEY: You didn't?

CHAMPION: No. They wouldn't send me.

HUNTLEY: That would have been interesting.

CHAMPION: Yes, that would have been quite an experience, but I did have the opportunity to do some interviews with Don Black who was also with the Klan. He is no longer in the city, but I had a chance to cover some of his rallies out of the Brighton area and all the Blacks out

there who saw me wondered why I was getting so close to this guy duringan interview

and I had had him on my talk show. At that time, we had talk shows, but I would record

them earlier and play them back on Sunday. So, that was quite an experience and I kept it going and I think I had his respect. I got a chance to get inside on 00:31:00some things that were going on and find out about their philosophy and way of life.

HUNTLEY: How did those initial contacts come about, how did you make them and how receptive were they of a Black man coming to interview them?

CHAMPION: Well I think they were quite receptive, because of the fact that I told them that it would be something of an interview with not just him by himself, but I had Reverend Pettigrew, who was just coming into the city at the time and it was one of those deals where they could ask each other questions that made it quite interesting for both parties as well as the listening audience.

HUNTLEY: Are those interviews still around, do you have them?

CHAMPION: I doubt that they are because, they would tape them and after a certain period of time, they would bolt the tape and it's all gone.

HUNTLEY: So,you then were around during the period when Richard Arrington became city councilperson as well as when he became mayor, of course?

CHAMPION: Yes I was.

HUNTLEY: What was that like working in a White establishment and appear that Blacks now, in quote, are taking over the city, did that have any impact upon what was happening on your particular job?

CHAMPION: If it didthe personnel at the station didn't make it known or they didn't make any change as far as to how they would carry themselves in my presence.

HUNTLEY: Tell me, how then do you view the changes over time in Birmingham from when you first came back to teach at Council to the present. How do you view those changes and if the changes are significant, how significant are they?

CHAMPION: I think they are quite significant, because they opened doors that would not have been opened, otherwise and many have reached certain heights that they would not have attained had it not been for the movement. But it also had some effect on the progress that could have been made, because people are becoming complacent. I have found an air of complacency in many areas where people had made certain advancements asfar as buying homes and moving out in to other areas where they couldn't move to beforehand. And things that they had acquired, "went to their heads", and they forgot there was still some work to be 00:34:00done and there were other people that needed their assistance and some of that is still being felt, today. Many people say they don't want to get involved. That's the cliche' we hear so many times and to some degree that has hurt us more than it helped us....integration, I'm referring to. Because many people became complacent when they didn't have to and they have forgotten that we are still Black and we will remain Black and there are certain instances that occur that reminds us of that we are still Black. And we have forgotten to keep that in mind and try to direct ourselves along those paths that we know who we are and we must still have to make progress as much as possible and look out for the people who are behind us, coming on after us.

HUNTLEY: How could integration be made to be different, the transition from a segregated society to an integrated society? How could that transition have been 00:35:00made different?

CHAMPION: If we had remembered our identity and conducted ourselves, thus ly, because if we loo k very closely and if you do some of the things I did while working outside of the south, you could see where the people are friendly to a degree. They let you know how they feel and they conduct themselves in a different manner when they leave the work place and they will invite you to so many of their affairs where normally there's all White, you'll

still find the tokens existing. And once we realize this is what's happening and start doing something about it, then we can't say we are one of those who might be classified as one of complacency.

HUNTLEY: Are you suggesting that we've developed such institutions then, with integration, we have become a part of other peoples' institutions?

CHAMPION: Yes, we forget who we are, where we are, and what we are all about.

HUNTLEY: So, then, that suggests that Black folk, basically were in favor of integrating, but the White society was really not accepting of integration on an equal basis?

CHAMPION: Correct. They were forced to accept it, they did not do it from their hearts and it shows. If one is quite concerned about where he is and what is going on around him, he can see it and feel it, because the real warmth isn't there. It's a cover up in other places more so than in the South, because you would know more readily in the south than anyone would in so me of the Northern, Eastern, and Western areas.

HUNTLEY: Where race relations or the movements' concern, are there any areas we have not touched base on that you would like to talk about? Anything that we have not covered that will be revealing to our audience in relationship to your 00:37:00own personal encounters in being a citizen of Birmingham.

CHAMPION: Well, I think everyone should take inventory and realize that we are Black and look at what happens everyday when you go to the workplace, and you come right back home where our people are and you should do something about where you are and help that community to become what you want it to be and not move away from where the people are that you came along with even though, they have not reached a certain plateau with you it is something we can still do ourselves and not wait for somebody to do it for us or expect somebody to do it for us. And then, blame it on somebody else when we don't succeed in whatever our goals might be. There's a whole lot of work that we can still do ourselves.

HUNTLEY: Mr. Champion, I want to thank you for coming and taking your time and sitting with us today and I appreciate it very much.

CHAMPION: I am glad to have done so.

HUNTLEY: Thank you very much.