Joel S. Boykin Jr. Interviewed on March 22, 2001

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Dr. Joel Boykin with the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project.

I'm Dr. Horace Huntley, today we're at the Civil Rights Institute, and today's date is March 22, 2001. I want to thank you Dr. Boykin taking the time out of your busy schedule and welcome to the institute.

BOYKIN: Thank you, thank you.

HUNTLEY: Let me just start by asking you some general questions; were you born in Birmingham?

BOYKIN: I was born right here in Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: Were you really?

BOYKIN: Yes indeed, on 8th Ave, where the projects exist now, projects and I was between say, they called that Joseph St, which was actually 3rd St. And between third and second street across from Palms, there was a Palms Barbeque place--.

HUNTLEY: Palms Barbeque and the theater-

BOYKIN: That is correct, well the theater wasn't there.

HUNTLEY: Wasn't there at that time?

BOYKIN: It was industrial high school at that time and the high school house where I was born. They used to have a garden there and part of the training of the students there, they kept the garden. The garden was in our backyard.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

BOYKIN: One of the superintendents, Dr. Goodson was a student at that time and he used to come down and I'd be out there in the back yard with my little ball and whatnot and we did a garden there, it was a community garden, it was a school garden.

HUNTLEY: What did you grow?

BOYKIN: Everything, all vegetables, greens, tomatoes-

HUNTLEY: A community garden-

BOYKIN: Like that, that was part of the high school project.

HUNTLEY: Is that right? Were your parents from Birmingham?

BOYKIN: My father went to school here in Birmingham. In grade school, he came up here from Livingston, Alabama. He had a twin sister and they lived in Birmingham, attended Slater school.

HUNTLEY: So you had deep roots here.

BOYKIN: Yes, and he was in the second graduating class that is now Parker High, it was something else that I don't know, it wasn't-

HUNTLEY: Industrial?

BOYKIN: Probably, maybe they've began it Industrial.

HUNTLEY: Right, right.

BOYKIN: There were two teachers there, Mrs. Kennedy and Mr. Parker, which was it.

HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters did you have?

BOYKIN: I had one sister.

HUNTLEY: One sister, is she older?

BOYKIN: Four years younger.

HUNTLEY: Four(?) years younger, okay. And what kind of education did your parents have?

BOYKIN: My father was a dentist, he became a dentist and he graduated in 1911, from Meharry.

HUNTLEY: From Meharry?

BOYKIN: Matter of fact we initially- Walden University. Got his license in 1912.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

BOYKIN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: So you followed in his footsteps?

BOYKIN: Yes, certainly so.

HUNTLEY: Well that's great, what about your mother?

BOYKIN: She was a graduate of Rust College in Mississippi, Holly Springs, and Mississippi, that's near the Tennessee border, about 20 miles from Memphis-

HUNTLEY: Right-

BOYKIN: Yeah, they have two colleges there, Rust and MI, my grandfather moved there from New Orleans to Mississippi because he had four girls. Had to get them an education-

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

BOYKIN: On the main drag, everybody had to pass by the house going to the school, all the teachers and stuff and they were walking or riding mules and stuff like so-

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

BOYKIN: Yeah.

HUNTLEY: Yeah, well-

BOYKIN: And she finished in '24.

HUNTLEY: In '24?

BOYKIN: Yes and also attended Alabama State too­

HUNTLEY: So did she teach?

BOYKIN: She taught here, she retired from the County School System.

HUNTLEY: What school did she teach?

BOYKIN: Woodard was the last-

HUNTLEY: Okay, down towards Bessemer.

BOYKIN: That's right, that's right.

HUNTLEY: Good school.

BOYKIN: So she retired from there.

HUNTLEY: Oh okay. Now where did you start first grade?

BOYKIN: I started first grade at Tuggle, Enon Ridge at that time, it was called Enon Ridge School.

HUNTLEY: Enon Ridge School.

BOYKIN: Enon Ridge School and it only went to the sixth grade at that time. But while there they added two more grades, eight grade.

HUNTLEY: Yeah, now I've heard a lot about Tuggle School, what do you remember about Tuggle the most?

BOYKIN: Carrie A. Tuggle founded Tuggle School, black-owned, Mrs. Simpleton, Mrs. Bethune, so she had that thing going in there, dormitory life, when I first 00:05:00went to Tuggle, Enon Ridge there was students there.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

BOYKIN: The band was playing.

HUNTLEY: You mean they had dormitories?

BOYKIN: Dormitories, that's right, it was Tuggle Institute­

HUNTLEY: So students would come in from outside of town?

BOYKIN: Yes, they lived there. Whether they were local or what­

HUNTLEY: But they were boarded right there on campus-

BOYKIN: Football teams, I would say about-we lived in the Tuggle home shortly after she passed. Soon as the Depression hit, my parents had to- we moved around quite a bit, he lost his house and so we did quite a bit moving. One of the moves were in the Tuggle home, home in Enon Ridge, I guess I must have been about four or five years old.

HUNTLEY: So those Depression days, not only affect those at the bottom rungs, it 00:06:00affected professionals as well?

BOYKIN: Everybody, everybody couldn't pay, so that- he was in the Masonic Temple for years until he couldn't hold on so he went on down to Eufaula, Alabama.

HUNTLEY: So he actually moved to practice in Eufaula?

BOYKIN: That' s correct, that's correct.

HUNTLEY: So when you left Tuggle School, where did you go?

BOYKIN: Parker. I went to Parker, at that time when we were living on Ave, we walked to Parker every morning.

HUNTLEY: What was Parker like?

BOYKIN: Parker was fantastic. It was- .

HUNTLEY: What made it- ?

BOYKIN: The teachers; people had a lot more interest then. Coming from being Dr. Boykin' s son, I guess sometimes they expected more 00:07:00from you and I could read, write and most of the kids- half of the class couldn't read or write. Even then, it was the system you had to pass this child right on regardless- to make room for someone else because we don't have funds to take care of that kind of thing.

That was what I later found out after I taught for a while (?) years but unfortunately wouldn't give us any primitive jobs here. I hated at that time because I think of the people who in charge, I' m talking about, county superintendents, Dr. Hayes and a guy I think they call him-.

HUNTLEY: E. Paul Jones?

BOYKIN: I think- he was the county man.

HUNTLEY: Right.

BOYKIN: He lives on the same street that I live on.

HUNTLEY: Okay.

BOYKIN: They wouldn't hire us, but anybody, Dr. Harris and the other fellow, Benny Harris, Jesse Ray Harris was the nephew.

HUNTLEY: Did you live on Fountain Heights?

BOYKIN: Yes.

HUNTLEY: You lived in Fountain Heights?

BOYKIN: Yes, at that time, certainly so. By that time, I had gone in the service and out. I had been at Morehouse A couple year and was drafted out of there and-

HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to go to Morehouse?

BOYKIN: All of buddies were going over there practically, I really thought more of going to Tuskegee that was a big school. It sounded great to me you know the name sounded good. I didn't know one thing nor from school from another, but you 00:09:00followed your game, the boys went over there and luckily I made the right decision.

HUNTLEY: So you went to Morehouse and then you were actually drafted out of Morehouse?

BOYKIN: Yeah.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

BOYKIN: Yeah.

HUNTLEY: And how long did you spend in the service?

BOYKIN: About 18-19 months-

HUNTLEY: --Where--?

BOYKIN: --Went in in'45 and- .

HUNTLEY: --Where-- ?

BOYKIN: Fort Benning, Camp Lee, down in Florida, out to California and in the Pacific, Sampan, Guam-.

HUNTLEY: Was the war about over by the time you- ?

BOYKIN: Just about over yeah, time I got over there, they dropped the bomb, they dropped (?), so there was nothing there but prisons at that time, some were still up in the mountains, but-

HUNTLEY: What was that transition like from college to the military?

BOYKIN: It was awful, I didn't want to be there, I didn't want to shoot at anyone, and I didn't want anybody shooting at me.

HUNTLEY: I understand that.

BOYKIN: I really didn't want to go, did everything I could to avoid it, until finally one of the ladies over at the-- .

HUNTLEY: Recruiting station- ?

BOYKIN: Recruiting station, she said, ''Now, if you move again, we're going to put you in jail." So, it's the matter of jail or going into the service.

HUNTLEY: So you spent those 18 months and then what did you do after?

BOYKIN: Well I got out in say November of '46 and I went back to school in January '47 and summer school and I finished in '48 and came out on time. The man upstairs was in my comer.

HUNTLEY: Oh yeah.

BOYKIN: Because that was the most difficult situation I believe I ever 00:11:00encountered, it was all on account of me, I didn't want to read, I wanted to be out there in the streets doing this and doing that, but I got behind, it was rough getting out. But fortunately there are so many wonderful students over there. Those guys have some excellent minds. All you're surrounded by them and it was almost impossible not to get out because everybody-Bob was in the class.

HUNTLEY: You were in a class with (?)?

BOYKIN: Yeah, he finished with me, but I started before him­

HUNTLEY: Did you know him personally?

BOYKIN: I met him when he was a freshman, because he came in the restaurant with one of the prettiest girls I have ever seen. The little restaurant, we ate something... where everybody hung out, he and another one of my classmates lived 00:12:00in the city and is name was Caleb, he brought them all to school in his car and that's how I met Margaret. "Move over!" (Both laugh)

I never--other than that, I was a sophomore, he was a freshman big time, by the time I came back and he was a senior, a junior or something, but I was tied up in getting with my thing, so but, guess they knew us better than we knew them. You know you all the upperclassmen.

HUNTLEY: That' s right, that's right.

BOYKIN: So I didn't really see him again until I was up in Meharry, this was after the bus sit-in, on the speaking engagement and whatnot and as soon as I 00:13:00walked down to the greeting, "Hey Joe" (both laugh). I would see him from time to time when he was here all the time, but not knowing that they were so good, until the last day of the-everything was breaking loose.

HUNTLEY: Well before yet that, what- when you left Morehouse, did you come back to Birmingham?

BOYKIN: When I left Morehouse, yes, I came back to Birmingham, that was the summer of '48-

HUNTLEY: And what did you do, did you--?

BOYKIN: And summer ' 48, I was told that, Joe is you want to get a job, you must go back to school. I say, wait a minute, I'm already educated, what are you talking about, I've got a BS degree from Morehouse and you're telling me I gotta go back to school, yeah and we did a bunch of us, Dr. Montgomery, Dr. Harris, all of us had to go out to Miles that summer to take some education, taking all 00:14:00this to teach. So that's what happened there-

HUNTLEY: So you went out to Miles that summer-

BOYKIN: That summer-

HUNTLEY: And then you started teaching that fall?

BOYKIN: That fall, yeah.

HUNTLEY: Where did you first work?

BOYKIN: Supply teaching down at Parker, Lincoln, wherever they would call.

HUNTLEY: How did you like that, to teach?

BOYKIN: That was- I needed the money (both laugh). Any kind of job.

HUNTLEY: Right.

BOYKIN: So as far as having been carried away with it, not really, until I got a regular job, Bob Johnson, who was a principal down at Parker that time, he got me a job in St. Clair county, I was there for about three or four months, it 00:15:00must have been '49, the spring session of ' 49.

HUNTLEY: So how long did you teach?

BOYKIN: I stayed there until the next spring session and couldn't get a regular job teaching until ' 50, the beginning of 1950 and that was down in Bullock County and I stayed there for a semester and things happened then and said, ''No, this won't do." So it was at that time, I was going to be the boss. I'm going back to get a PhD, some kind of D; you couldn't give me little bit more control-

HUNTLEY: Over your life-

BOYKIN: Yeah, so I ended up going out to(?). After the fall I got into Meharry, got a master's degree in science at Atlanta University, but I was determined I was going to get- I was through with the school system. Because there it was too 00:16:00many little(?) of all kinds, it's going to be this way or no way. I didn't see that as being the right way, even in Bullock county down there, it was called then, they bombed my father' s house that particular year, 1950, April of '50-

HUNTLEY: Here?

BOYKIN: Here, in Fountain Heights, he was in there, I wrote him a letter, the newspaper people were asking were we wanting to rebuild it, because we have a hard time getting insurance.

So I wrote, if I can fight over there in Siapan, Guam, yeah we can do it right here too. And they put it on the front page of the paper, the Post Herald at that time and this superintendent sent for me, took me out of class, said the 00:17:00genius supervisor who was a black lady Jessie Oliver down, to pick me up by taking me out of the school room and bring me way downtown to the city, to his office, to answer to this- on the front page of the--and I thought- I didn't know why she said letter initially and I said, "She's been reading my mail."

I didn't know and then she threw the paper in my lap and I read, I say, "Well I'll be doggone." I prepared to say bye bye, but I told them, I said, "Boykin, you know didn't mean what you said about this." I've enjoyed this; I've really 00:18:00enjoyed working with you in this school system." "I think you're doing an excellent job."

I said, "But in regards to that letter, I meant everything I said." "And I'm sure you feel the same way if someone was trying to do something to you on the sly." And he said, "The people downtown wanted to ask about this mess, I just want you to be careful." In fact, they sent... before the year was that summer, asked me to come back and be principal of the school.

HUNTLEY: Is that right, so you were actually prepared to say, it's yours, it created a problem for you.

BOYKIN: That's right-

HUNTLEY: But that didn't happen.

BOYKIN: But I didn't go back in. I went on to school because it's too much of a hassle.

HUNTLEY: Did you go into dentistry because of your father?

BOYKIN: Yeah, I was going to dental school, med school, I didn't make any difference which one.

HUNTLEY: And I'm sure he encouraged you?

BOYKIN: Well naturally, I wasn't going to stop, he didn't have to do much encouraging for me, and I couldn't stand the little jobs that I had, grocery boy, waiting tables, all of that, working at railway express, all kinds of little odd jobs.

HUNTLEY: So you spent the four years at Meharry and then- ?

BOYKIN: Then I interned a year, stayed up there a little longer, interned a year, because I knew I was corning back, it was some things that I wanted to do and I didn't want to necessarily sent everything to somebody else when I doing another year and get a little bit more into it.

HUNTLEY: So did you join your father when you came--?

BOYKIN: No, I went directly to the private practice.

HUNTLEY: How many black dentists were there in town?

BOYKIN: At that time, Dr. Elliot, Dr. James (?), Dr. (?)­

HUNTLEY: Jefferson?

BOYKIN: Jefferson, Dr. Howard, Mixon, Claiborn, Shakespeare, Thompson, and Dr. Dowdell, Dr. Davis out in Bessemer, that was about it.

HUNTLEY: And that was in '54-'55?

BOYKIN: That was '57.

HUNTLEY: '57, okay. So unlike the legal profession, in the medical profession, there were several black professions.

BOYKIN: The legal profession, there was so few that whenever we have our affairs, we invited them to participate with us, because there were a few more physicians, but so many affairs, we combined and do it together. On several occasions, we'd say, there are few of us, that time we had conventions in the state and practically every physicians in the state, in the state of Alabama, Tennessee--.

HUNTLEY: When you got back here in 1957, that is in the heat of things; what was happening when you get back? When Shuttlesworth took his children to Phillips High School.

BOYKIN: It was active, nobody wanted to be--but Fred had his own ideas about how 00:22:00this thing should be done and Fred proved me right. See a lot of people my daddy's age, that group, Agee, even Emory O. Emory O was as bad as anybody that I've ever seen when it came to confronting segregation. Talking about it like it was, made Bull Connor blow his top. Some of the responses that bull would come out with-to be associated with Fred was like--didn't have any problems with Fred because I had an attitude anyway, I' m ready, put it- but I think you have to be 00:23:00really called into that kind of thing, to be that dedicated, to look death square in the face, like, that what he was facing every time.

He's been called, the man upstairs- this is your job Fred, this is it and he didn't shirk away from it, but you have to be calm for something like that to go ahead and fight somebody with no weapon and that was not my calling because I would in fact start shooting whatever, I've got to defend me, but they- no defense, turn the other cheek. I would tell him, I said, "Somebody's got to do."

HUNTLEY: Did you ever attend any of the meetings?

BOYKIN: Oh yes, oh yes.

HUNTLEY: How would you describe a mass meeting, what was a mass meeting like?

BOYKIN: There were energy-filled services and whatnot, we're already complaining about buses, this, we're spending our money and we don' t get this and but I was saying they brought those things to get the--that was constantly in front, but how are we gonna move out from under where we are. These are our rights, we're human, we're going to do this and we're going to do that, just want to take this thing.

The mass meeting started at a time when everybody was just about tired and just ready to die, whatever it takes and there were a lot of people that kept bringing the crowds began to increase. But there are a lot of people who said, 00:25:00no there's no point, people with the church there. I said, " Listen, we're fighting this thing the wrong way." But there was no other way, we tried, every time we said it, they put it off, and they would go back to the same kind of tactics-

HUNTLEY: Even people at 16th street in opposition to Fred-

BOYKIN: Oh yeah, stopping and going down there and whatnot, I wouldn't a church member there other than me.

HUNTLEY: You remember 16th street?

BOYKIN: The deacon right, now? Not then.

HUNTLEY: Not then, okay, did you ever participate in the demonstrations?

BOYKIN: Demonstrations, yeah, yeah, demonstrations, into the point that, not out marching because we were, I've talked with Wyatt Walker, after running into him, 00:26:00Gaston was (?) brother Ha (?), said "Wyatt, what can I do?" I said, "I' m ready to go to jail you know." He said, "No, that wouldn't help us like this so to tell you what you do, we need you all to stay back here to take care of us."

"If we get hit in the head, shot up, whatever it is, so you get us out of jail, he said, "Well I tell you what, can you get them together, because the newspaper here, the Birmingham News trying to show that we're not in accord with Fred, we support Shores-."

HUNTLEY: Talking about the profession?

BOYKIN: Yeah, we support Shores and Gaston or something like that, that was not true, it was not true.

HUNTLEY: So in other words they were attempting to divide­

BOYKIN: The news crew, the media was terrible-

HUNTLEY: But that was not true-

BOYKIN: That was not true, he said, "Rev, it's not your, this is not mine 10:00 in the morning, he says, "I tell what you do, if you can get them together" I said, "Okay, come out to my office, this evening." He say, "3:00." Surprised, I got off the phone and got every physician, every dentist showed up at my office.

That day they came together and we talked we closed up property and we made wide declarations of support and concern which is published in the paper, I took it down to the Birmingham News and they thought that they were going to able edit and do what they want, we say, no we want this just like it is. And it cost me 00:28:00about $500. And put up bonds, money-

HUNTLEY: So this is to get people out of jail?

BOYKIN: Out of jail, that's right, property bond.

HUNTLEY: Did anybody lose his or her property as a result of-?

BOYKIN: No.

HUNTLEY: See there was always would be a concern.

BOYKIN: Because someone else came up with some more money, maybe, as always that always is a concern, but you can see, if we would do that, it' s time to die. So that was the professional support we had- so whether it was evident to us or not. There were whole lots of them- we were riding around in cars with shotguns.

HUNTLEY: That's another question people ask about the nonviolent movement, that 00:29:00I've talked to people and they were always those that stood guard at the various homes and churches and were armed, did you have any knowledge of that?

BOYKIN: Yeah, yes, you couldn't believe it, I'm sitting on my own porch with a shotgun, we were riding around in the car with shotgun, there were no knowledge of it and things happen that a lot of us don' t know about that- when somebody reported things when these people began to attack and they were met with force.

HUNTLEY: There were times-

BOYKIN: Yes and at least one, I don't know how many, center street for that matter. There were people coming into- the Klan coming into the communities don't do this and that, I'm not sure that all of them got out.

HUNTLEY: But that- took place, see that's what I wanted to mention because--whole story.

BOYKIN: Afraid and all that kind of-. no, no.

HUNTLEY: So you actually know firsthand that that took place­

BOYKIN: Yes sir.

HUNTLEY: On dynamite hill, but here that kind of information is so important we only get half of the story and in order to the whole story, you have to have those stories. And other folk like yourself who were there on the scene and knowledgeable. Are there any other things that took place during the time that you like to share with us before we conclude?

BOYKIN: I don't know.

HUNTLEY: You've married, had a family-

BOYKIN: Yes, yes, oh yeah, my first wife, she can give you a lot of information, but you got to go down and see her, she's(?). She was the director of the OEO period, had just started offices of economics of opportunity and she was head of the social work, community and people, which was community organization. So she helped these people sit up and do things that they didn't know how to do.

HUNTLEY: So she's an organizer?

BOYKIN: Oh yeah, very much so, very much so.

HUNTLEY: So did she help during that time?

BOYKIN: She set up that whole office, she was the second director. That time I 00:32:00think she was making a big salary at that time about $19,000 or $20,000 a year, which was big amount at that time. The average- maybe teachers, principals, she John was the director and she was second and about a year later, she moved onto something else used to work for her, Charles. She was real in that kind of thing because (?) Washington would come and ask her for something and she'd know what to do.

HUNTLEY: As Martin Luther King came in and out of town, you say you would see him periodically; did you every have any relations with- ?BOYKIN: Yes-

HUNTLEY: As a result of your being one of the leaders in the professional area?

BOYKIN: Oh the last time I actually talked to Martin, he was getting ready to go upstairs I said, "What's happening now, good gracious." I say, " It' s going on." He says, "Joey, you're right." He says, "Right now I got to follow the people......follower."

HUNTLEY: That's interesting, that' s really interesting-

BOYKIN: Following, you got that right, all these kids up here. And I am talking-but he was busy and I know what he's doing and he knows what I'm doing 00:34:00we came from the same school. I hear buck bennet talks, every time I hear Martin I thought I was listening to Dr. Mayes.

HUNTLEY: Yeah, yeah, same thing.

BOYKIN: Repeating the same thing, he could talk the talk, this Gandhi philosophy all this kind of thing. I couldn't done all of that and they preached all these wonderful sermons, we had to listen to so we-

HUNTLEY: What you call it, buck?

BOYKIN: Buck Benny.

HUNTLEY: Buck Benny?

BOYKIN: Yeah buck Benny, we called him buck Benny.

HUNTLEY: Well you've been very helpful, I certainly appreciated you taking time out of your schedule to come and sit and talk with us and you' ve clarified some things for me today.

BOYKIN: Okay.

HUNTLEY: It was very interesting.

BOYKIN: If can be of any assistance, a lot of things I probably forgot-.

HUNTLEY: Well all- there may sometimes when we can. get together and sit down again.

BOYKIN: Right. I think you can come over my house sometimes.

HUNTLEY: Okay I'd love to, alright, thank you.

BOYKIN: Give you some more.

HUNTLEY: Okay.

BOYKIN: Okay.

HUNTLEY: Appreciate it very much.