Harvey Henley

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mr. Harvey Henley for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 21, 1995.

Thank you Mr. Henley for coming out and sitting with us today.

HENLEY: Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking some rather general questions about your family. Tell me, where were your parents from?

HENLEY: They were originally from a place called Enondale, Mississippi.

HUNTLEY: Where is that located?

HENLEY: That is located to the south of Lauderdale, Mississippi which is to the south of Meridian, Mississippi.

HUNTLEY: Were you born in Mississippi?

HENLEY: I was born there.

HUNTLEY: How old were you when you came to Alabama?

HENLEY: When my father moved to Alabama I was three years old.

HUNTLEY: So, really Birmingham is what you know most about?

HENLEY: Birmingham and Johns, Alabama.

HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have?

HENLEY: It was eight of us.

HUNTLEY: And where did you fit?

HENLEY: In the middle, the fourth child.

HUNTLEY: Just tell me a little about your parents. How much education did they have?

HENLEY: My parents perhaps had about an eighth grade education.

HUNTLEY: What were their occupations?

HENLEY: My mother used to wash and iron clothes for White people. My father, even though it was a coal mining camp that we lived in but he was a lumberjack. 00:02:00He used to cut the props to hold the top of the mine up.

HUNTLEY: So he worked for a mining company?

HENLEY: Right.

HUNTLEY: But he was not a miner?

HENLEY: No, he was not a miner.

HUNTLEY: What community did you live in as you were growing up?

HENLEY: I lived in the Coal Mining camp called Johns, Alabama.

HUNTLEY: Where is Johns?

HENLEY: Johns, Alabama is about 12 miles below Bessemer. You go through the pipe shop and go down through West Highland and on down to Johns, Alabama. Old Tuscaloosa Highway, Bessemer Road.

HUNTLEY: What school did you attend?

HENLEY: I attend the Addy Junior High School which was in our community and then I was bused to Westfield High School in the Westfield community.

HUNTLEY: How far was that from Johns?

HENLEY: It was about a 40 mile trip each day, round trip.

HUNTLEY: Forty miles? Were there any schools closer that you could have attended?

HENLEY: Oh, yes. There was one about six miles. Oak Grove High School and Hueytown High School which was about 7 or 8 miles.

HUNTLEY: Well, why didn't you attend those schools? Did you prefer to go to Westfield?

HENLEY: We were forced to go to Westfield because those were White schools. The Oak Grove and Hueytown were White schools. And that was the closest county Black school that was available, Westfield High School.

HUNTLEY: So you passed at least two high schools that happened to be White to get to Westfield High School?

HENLEY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Westfield was a rather noted high school in the Jefferson County area.

HENLEY: Right. I have a lot of praise for Westfield High School simply because the teachers there were concerned and everything and when you left there, you really had a good basic education. You didn't have any problem getting into any 00:04:00college or things like that. And, even now, we have one of the biggest high school reunions of any of the high schools.

HUNTLEY: You have alumni all over the country. I've interviewed people from Parker and Industrial High and each one say their school was the best school, so I'm sure you would say the same about Westfield.

HENLEY: That's right.

HUNTLEY: Can you describe your community that you lived? What was Johns like?

HENLEY: Well, just like any coal mining town -- my community was a little different. My community had sawmill people living there. And sawmill people you had Blacks living on this side and Whites living on this side. In other words, we all played together until we got to a certain age and, then, people started 00:05:00teaching that you got to say, "mister" to this sawmill boy or sawmill girl or what have you.

HUNTLEY: What do you mean "sawmill?"

HENLEY: Well, these White people that worked at the sawmill. They had a sawmill there.

HUNTLEY: They lived in the community?

HENLEY: Yes, the mining community I lived in. And we weren't staying in company housing. Our house belonged to the man that owned the sawmill and that's how my father got the contract with the coal mine, was to cut props for the coal mine. The man allowed him to do that on a sharing basis.

HUNTLEY: So the coal mine didn't own the sawmill?

HENLEY: No.

HUNTLEY: But you lived in the same community?

HENLEY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And there were both Blacks and Whites that worked for the sawmill as well?

HENLEY: The sawmill and the coal mine.

HUNTLEY: Well, how was the community situated? Did you have Blacks and Whites 00:06:00living together?

HENLEY: No. Not living together. They were separated with about a block. They were separated like that. We had our own churches, we had our own school. You had a White community school and a Black community school.

HUNTLEY: Both had elementary schools?

HENLEY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: But you had to go out of the community, both Blacks and Whites to go to high school?

HENLEY: Right.

HUNTLEY: What kind of recreation did you have in the community?

HENLEY: Well, the only recreation we had was to swim down in the creek. You played click 'n wheel, roll a wheel, roll tires, caught a car and all of that kind of stuff. But there was no organized recreation facility at all.

HUNTLEY: What company owned the coal mines?

HENLEY: Black Diamond Coal Mining Company.

HUNTLEY: What about the sawmill?

HENLEY: It was Tom Moore Sawmill.

HUNTLEY: Did you move to Birmingham after you finished high school in Johns?

HENLEY: I finished high school in Westfield and I went out to the armed services?

HUNTLEY: But you were still living in Johns?

HENLEY: Still living in Johns, yes.

HUNTLEY: How would you describe Westfield High School?

HENLEY: When I got to Westfield it was a different setting for me. It was the first time I had gone to separate classes and a homeroom. It looked like all the teachers were real serious about what they were doing. You know, when you go 00:08:00into their classroom they had complete discipline and everything. The principal, Mr. Reeves, was one of the best. He was concerned. Whenever we would go on an activity period and things, some of the guys might go up in the woods and smoke or something and Mr. Reeves would come up there and run them out. I mean he would get behind them and catch them. The level of concern and education and everything it was superb. Because you had people like Mr. McCarthy, Ms. Fenoy. You had people that was really concerned and really knew what they were doing. If you wanted to get an education, you could get it.

HUNTLEY: And they were concerned about your succeeding?

HENLEY: They were.

HUNTLEY: In fact, you have had a lot of folk from Westfield to have gone on to --

HENLEY: Right. Judge U. W. Clemmons, Dr. Arrington.

HUNTLEY: Arrington went to Westfield?

HENLEY: No. No. He went to Miles College.

HUNTLEY: Yes. He went to Fairfield.

HENLEY: But Judge U. W. Clemmons, he was a graduate of Westfield High School.

HUNTLEY: What was your community's relationship to law enforcement agencies, the Johns community?

HENLEY: We had a little one horse town. We had one light. We had one police and we called him Gun Rust.

HUNTLEY: Gun Rust?

HENLEY: Yes. Because he wore a pistol. I think it reached all the way down to his ankle and it was rusty and he had a '47 Plymouth.

HUNTLEY: Did he ever arrest anybody?

HENLEY: He'd try but the guys, they got these cars and they were so fast, they 00:10:00would always lead him on out of town. They would forget when I had moved to Birmingham and I went back down there and I had a '56 Ford. And he got behind me and boy I led him out of town. So he went over to the house and told my father, he say, "Harvey Lee, that boy of yours coming down here running over our town. Next time he come down, you bring him over here."

HUNTLEY: So, did your father take you over the next time?

HENLEY: He tried.

HUNTLEY: He did, but you weren't ready to go?

HENLEY: No.

HUNTLEY: Do you ever remember any difficult in your community that related to law enforcement agencies?

HENLEY: Oh, the only things was that one year Rev. Norwood was preaching revival at one of the churches down there and Rev. Norwood always drove a big long Cadillac car. So Gun Rust come through there and saw that Cadillac car sitting 00:11:00out there so he came in the church and wanted to know what was going on and we were running a revival. But I guess if it had of been Martin King or somebody that he was going to arrest everybody in there. But, anyway, we were running revival and that was good so he didn't say anything about that. But, no, we never had any trouble out of the law. The only thing that the boot leggers down there, they had favoritism. He would let boot legger get by and he would arrest the other ones. So, I think they had some problems.

HUNTLEY: Were there Black and White boot leggers?

HENLEY: Oh, yes.

HUNTLEY: That community being so distant from the city, did you ever have any difficulty with the Klan?

HENLEY: Yes. We had a lot of it. Because I think that the Klan's object was to 00:12:00terrorize the community. Keep fear in people. And they used to always have these caravans to come through the community. It was 100 cars sometimes with a big cross on the truck and the white sheets and hoods on. I never will forget one night my uncle had just went and bought two chickens. You know, you used to buy chickens on Saturday for the cook Sunday. And he was coming back and he saw those cars coming down the road and there was a bridge there. So he got up on that bridge and jumped in that water and the chicken went one way and he went the other way. But that shows you the amount of terrorism that they were doing.

HUNTLEY: What were the occasions? Did they just decide to ride through the community?

HENLEY: Well, when the headlines come out in the paper about the Arthurine Lucy is attending the University of Alabama and headlines such as Supreme Court 00:13:00making a decision on integrating schools and everything, then they start that demonstration.

HUNTLEY: So this was basically for the purpose of retaining control and maintaining control over the Black population, I assume?

HENLEY: Right. It sort of says, it's not going to happen here.

HUNTLEY: After you finished high school in Westfield, what did you do?

HENLEY: I went to the army.

HUNTLEY: Where did you go?

HENLEY: I went to Fort Jackson, South Carolina. And I went to Fort Bragg and then to Fort Bennett.

HUNTLEY: Did you volunteer or were you drafted?

HENLEY: I volunteered.

HUNTLEY: So you never did get outside of the country?

HENLEY: No. I wanted to, but I never did get outside of the country.

HUNTLEY: And you were there for two years?

HENLEY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And you returned to Birmingham in 1959, I believe?

HENLEY: 1959.

HUNTLEY: By that time, the Alabama Christian Movement had been very active for two or three years. How and why did you became involved in the Civil Rights Movement?

HENLEY: Well, the first thing that made me get concerned about it was because when I first got out of the army in Georgia and this captain that gave us this little talk before we got out, he was telling us about "You people from the south, you don't have to go to the other side of fence again." And I realized what he was talking about. But when I got back to Alabama-- I think in '58 they have moved the signs on the bus that said Black and White, but they still had up in the front, Black seats from back to front and White seats from front to back. And I was commuting from Johns to Birmingham and I got on the bus one day, the 00:15:0045, I paid my money in the front and Blacks were already standing from the back to the front. So I went on and got in the front door. And I was standing about half-way in the bus and this White soldier, he appeared to be a National Guard person. But, anyway, he kept motioning for me to go to the back.

HUNTLEY: This was before you got on the bus or were you on the bus?

HENLEY: I was on the bus. I was standing up in front of two White women and he was sitting down. And he was motioning me to go to the back. I thought he was going to give me a seat, but what happened, he got up and went and told the bus 00:16:00driver and I heard him, he say, "You got a nigger up here in the front, don't know where he's supposed to be." Then the bus driver started looking through the mirror and he started pointing back to the back. So I didn't move. I said, "It's no room back there, I can't get back there." So he stopped the bus, and he said, "You got to go back there now." I said, "No, there's no room.

I paid my money and there's no room for me to get back there and two or three Black women told me, "Son, go on back there, go on back there." So when they said that, I said, "No, I'll just get off the bus." So I got off the bus and walked to Roosevelt City. At that time I had an aunt there so I went there and they took me home. But that one incident started me thinking about what they were doing in Birmingham with the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights because these were the things they were meeting about at the mass meeting and 00:17:00everything. So I decided I would go to one of the mass meetings. And I felt good about what I was hearing and the people looked like they were really ready to do something.

And, what that did, was gave me the opportunity to get information from these meetings and I would go back to Johns and tell the people what was going on and what we need to do down here. Because you had limited success in getting people to participate in anything in a little town that I come from, because they always thought that the Lord was going to change things. And, I mean, they had legitimate feelings and everything but it was very few progressive enough to understand really what was being said. You had a few old people down there that got involved in the voter registration education thing. But as far as attending 00:18:00mass meetings from Johns, Alabama, very few people did that. But I did start attending the mass meetings.

HUNTLEY: Were you living in Johns at that time?

HENLEY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And what year did you move to Birmingham?

HENLEY: I moved to Birmingham in 1960.

HUNTLEY: So you were there for a few months after you got out of the service?

HENLEY: Right.

HUNTLEY: What community did you move to?

HENLEY: I moved to Powderly.

HUNTLEY: So you started attending mass meetings on a regular basis?

HENLEY: Right.

HUNTLEY: Can you describe to me what a typical mass meeting was like?

HENLEY: First, it was like going to church. You go and you would have prayer and singing. And, then, you would have information sharing, people who had gather information about what was going on, what we need to do and all these things was 00:19:00what was happening. You had people that was well versed in all these areas. They would have 3 or 4 speak a night and then you would have a main speaker that would speak and people would be enthusiastic and they were getting fired up.

HUNTLEY: At that time were you a registered voter?

HENLEY: No. The first two or three meetings I was not a registered voter.

HUNTLEY: Was that one of the activities that was discussed?

HENLEY: That was one of the things that was stressed. They were talking about if you weren't qualified to vote, where you could go to get the training that you need to qualify and my area was Bessemer. Asbury Howard, Sr. and his son, they 00:20:00ran the voter education campaign in Bessemer. I went and got some of the information that they had and a lot of it was just stuff that you would learn in high school about the Constitution and stuff like that. Then you would have to pay your poll tax. But the first time I went to register, I qualified to vote. I was qualified, but there was one trick question that the last guy that examined you, you had to go to two different rooms.

You would take your written test then you would have an oral examination by some specialist. So he asked me who was the mayor of the town that I was born in. And that was 21 years ago. I left Mississippi when I was three years old. So I said, "I don't know." "You mean to tell me you don't know the name of the mayor of the 00:21:00town that you're in?" I said, "I really don't. As a matter of fact, I don't know whether they even had a mayor or not." "Oh, every town got a mayor." So I said, "I don't think they had one." "Well, if you don't know the mayor of your town, that's your civic duty, you can't vote, you can't register to vote."

HUNTLEY: What were your feelings after he disallowed your application to become a registered voter?

HENLEY: My feeling was that it was just a scheme to keep me from voting. I didn't think that he really wanted me to be registered to vote. I thought that this was a Federal observer. I felt real good when I sat down in front of him. He had black hair, and he was red, and I thought that maybe this guy, he's alright. I'm fixing to qualify here. But, he turned me down.

HUNTLEY: Why would you think he was a federal man because he had black hair and was red?

HENLEY: He had black hair and look kind of like a jew or something.

HUNTLEY: Oh. So you figured he was not southern?

HENLEY: Yes. He didn't look southern.

HUNTLEY: So then you were turned down that time?

HENLEY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Did you go back a second time?

HENLEY: The second time I went back there was a lady that asked me the final question. And she asked me "Why did he turn you down the last time?" I said, "Well, I failed to give some information about my home town and I was three years old when I left there." She said, "What was the question?" I said, "Well, he wanted to know the name of the mayor of Enondale, Mississippi." She said, "He shouldn't have turned you down for that." And she checked it off and gave me my certificate and I was registered to vote.

HUNTLEY: That's Enondale?

HENLEY: Enondale, Mississippi.

HUNTLEY: So you then became a registered voter?

HENLEY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What was your specific role in the Movement?

HENLEY: Well, really, at the time I had gone to work out at ACIPICO too. I really was concerned about the labor aspect of the Movement. Because these other things like the buses and the department stores and everything, they had elderly people that would picket the stores and things like that. But, the place that I worked, we had a real problem out there about discrimination, too. And anything that you did out there at the time was a bold move because the people were afraid, too. They was afraid of the job and everything. So, even if you went to a meeting, you know, these mass meetings, the company I worked for would have 00:24:00people to go to those meetings and come back and tell them who was at those meetings. So anything anybody did out there it was real bold.

HUNTLEY: Were you ever approached by supervisors as a result of your attending meetings?

HENLEY: Yes. One day somebody had told the supervisor that I was at the meeting. I think it was a meeting when Dr. King had been jailed and somebody saw me at one of the support rallies for Dr. King. And the superintendent said, "Harvey, you involved in that mess going on down in Birmingham?" I said, "I'm not directly involved, I'm an observer. I go and see everything." "Well, Harvey, we don't need that kind of stuff. You to good a man to be tied up in something like 00:25:00that." I said, "I appreciate your comments and I appreciate you feeling that way about me and everything, but it's just something that I want to go and observe." "Well, you just keep on going and observing." And he left it like that.

The Movement had all kind of people in it. You had different political perspectives and things like that. And everybody that is not a person that goes to church and all that kind of stuff, he's a communist. So that's what my work manager told me, he said, "Harvey, you too good a man to be tied up in that old communist stuff like that." I said, "Well, I don't know the difference between a 00:26:00communist and you." I said, "I'm out here with you every day and this world that we live in you got all kinds of people in it. I associate with all kinds of people. Now, whether you think I'm being influenced by somebody, I can think you being influenced by something." And, he got mad, he said, "Well, I tell you what, you take care of your people, I'm going to take care of mine." I said, "Well, that's good. I don't have no problem with that at all. But don't have no problem with me associating with people. I know how to go in and out and take care of myself."

HUNTLEY: Were you ever reprimanded or anything for being in attendance at the meetings?

HENLEY: Well, I was warned about passing out the leaflets in the shop.

HUNTLEY: Didn't you collect money from people that worked out at ACIPICO for the Movement?

HENLEY: Me and Davis Jordan and Edward Hicks, we would ask the guys for a contribution and we would get it to the Alabama Christian Movement.

HUNTLEY: What did your employer think of your doing that on the job?

HENLEY: Well, they didn't know it. If they had known it, if they had ever saw me solicit, that would have been a reason to fire me.

HUNTLEY: What kind of activities were you involved in? What demonstrations were you involved in?

HENLEY: I was involved in the demonstration when we were demonstrating for the change in government, we went to the city hall. I was involved when Dr. King 00:28:00came to L. R. Hall, he was doing a speech there. And I was there when this White guy wanted to shake his hand and instead of shaking his hand, he slapped him.

HUNTLEY: What happened when that took place?

HENLEY: There were some of the guys grabbed the guy. The police grabbed him and when the police grabbed him, I think Dr. King said, "Leave him alone." He went to him and told him that he loved him and all that. But Dr. King didn't want him arrested or anything like that.

HUNTLEY: How did the audience react?

HENLEY: Oh, they were ready to jump the guy. But Dr. King he cooled them down.

HUNTLEY: Were you on the march I believe it was Palm Sunday?

HENLEY: No. I didn't get arrested in that march. But I was there. When you did a march like that, you just about knew who was going to get arrested. People had already asked us could you afford to get arrested or whatever. If you worked at these shops and factories and everything and you had a family, you probably weren't going to get arrested. But you would do anything else that you could do. That was my position.

HUNTLEY: Well, did your company, American Cast Iron and Pipe, did they have any particular method that they would utilize if someone was arrested and you missed 00:30:00time off work?

HENLEY: Yes. If you were arrested, the method was the jailer would keep you in jail for three days. If they found a way to keep you in jail for three days you are automatically fired. But, if they didn't keep you in jail, when you come back, you would get a reprimand, the first offense was two weeks off.

HUNTLEY: If you missed a day from work?

HENLEY: No. They called that defiance of the law. Demonstrating was defying the law. If anybody got arrested in a demonstration then they called that defiance of the law. And that rule, the first offense was two weeks off and if you did it again, you were discharged.

HUNTLEY: So even if you demonstrated and were not arrested?

HENLEY: And was not arrested it was still -- the demonstration itself they would say it was defiance of the law because somebody did get arrested.

HUNTLEY: But you were involved in several demonstrations and you were never brought before the authorities?

HENLEY: Never brought before a discipline committee.

HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate?

HENLEY: No. I was the most progressive one in my family. I had a brother, he had died when he was 30 years old. He had gone to school and he was a civil engineer and he come back a Muslim. I mean he just didn't like White folks at all. But as far as political stuff, I was the most progressive one.

HUNTLEY: Were you married at the time?

HENLEY: I got married in 1963 I believe it was.

HUNTLEY: Was your wife involved in the Movement?

HENLEY: No. I was always gone and she didn't say a thing about me leaving or whatever I had to do. She supported me in that.

HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of?

HENLEY: At the time in Johns I was a member of Mt. Herman Baptist Church. When I come to Powderly I joined the First Baptist Church of Powderly and I subsequently I moved to New Pilgrim Baptist Church.

HUNTLEY: Was First Baptist involved in the Movement?

HENLEY: Yes. Some people in First Baptist was.

HUNTLEY: What about the minister?

HENLEY: The minister, no. The two ministers that I served under, they weren't involved in it.

HUNTLEY: Did you have any mass meetings out at First Baptist?

HENLEY: Were they anti-Movement or did they talk against the Movement?

HENLEY: No. They didn't talk against it. You had some people in the membership that would say them people ought to let God handle this and all that. But, you didn't have a wholesale resentment to what was going on. People were just afraid. Afraid for people to come into their church because they thought they might bomb it or something.

HUNTLEY: So your activity then, although you were involved in a number of the demonstrations, your thrust was to see some changes where labor was concerned?

HENLEY: Right.

HUNTLEY: What kind of impact did the Movement have upon that area of life, of work life?

HENLEY: Well, it had a lot because in 1963 I didn't know anything about the 00:34:00President's Commission on Equal Employment. Before they had the EEOC they had a commission on equal employment and that was an executive order. And I learned all this by attending the mass meeting. They had people there that was telling people their rights as workers and things like that. So I asked some people, we asked Davis Jordan who was the chairman of the Committee for Equal Job Opportunity. We had Peter Wren and all them and we got together and started inquiring about the Commission and what it's job was and everything because we wanted to file some charges. And that's what we did.

We started filing written charges against our company because of discrimination. Because at ACIPICO they had Black jobs and White jobs. That is, when I first 00:35:00went there, about the only thing that a Black person could do was to do labor work and the other thing was to be a round man. That's to round the mold. That's the thing that they shake you to death. And that was the highest paying job you could get. I don't care what it was driving a pay load or whatever, they had Black jobs and White jobs and they made assignments that way. So, we started filing charges and started getting these investigators to come in.

We got an investigation to come in and they checked out our complaint. And we thought we were going to get some relief there. But, these government agencies, and I have dealt with all of them, they give you the run around. I mean, they started early on, come at 9:00, doing an investigation, come back and writing you telling you what they have done and everything and they don't do anything 00:36:00else. But we kept writing those letters until finally we did get a good investigation.

That was in 1963. And, in 1964, they passed a law, the Civil Rights Act of '64 and in it it had what you called a "Tower Seven" and that had to do with equal employment. Now, that gave you access to the court. The Commission didn't give you that access. The Commission all you would try to do is get a good faith agreement. But the Civil Rights Act and the Tower Seven gave you access to the court. You can go on up as high as the Supreme Court. So the President came in and he had a meeting with the White employees and had a meeting with Black employees.

HUNTLEY: Together?

HENLEY: No. He had it separate. And that was wrong. He wasn't supposed to do 00:37:00that. He told the White employees, "Y'all ain't got to worry, ain't nobody going to come here breathing down our backs." He said, "We are going to go on and do things just like we been doing them." And in the meantime, these White guys just come in there and get all those jobs, skilled jobs and everything without taking a test or anything. So what happened was that when they saw that we were filing these charges in 1963, they implemented a test, they called it a California Achievement Test for Mental Maturity. It was a college entrance exam, really that's what it was.

And, so there was the relief that we got, because most of our people couldn't pass that test. They could do the work and they were doing the work, but they couldn't pass the test. So they couldn't get a higher paying job. At the same time, it got the government off the hook because they said, "The White people 00:38:00passing this test and you can't pass it, therefore, you don't have no complaint." But the White people weren't passing the test. And even when they gave them the test, they took it to the house and schooled them on it and everything. They showed them how to pass tests and all that.

HUNTLEY: How do you know that they took it to their houses?

HENLEY: Well, because some of the good White folk told us that.

HUNTLEY: So did you have an official position in relationship to the EEOC?

HENLEY: Yes. I was the Executive Secretary. Our committee was the Committee for Equal Job Opportunity. Now, it's not the EEOC.

HUNTLEY: Was this an internal agency?

HENLEY: It was a Black caucus at ACIPICO.

HUNTLEY: Of employees?

HENLEY: Yes. It was unorganized. ACIPICO has always been unorganized. It was a 00:39:00peculiar set up. It's supposed to be a family-owned thing. That is the employees are supposed to own it. And everybody is supposed to have an equal share. We are supposed to get a bonus every three months because of our profit sharing. The man that left the place he was a good guy, apparently. You really need to read his book. But he really had the idea that industry should operate according to the Golden Rule. And some of the older people that I talked with, they say that when he was there, that things were different. He was living a 100 years before his time. But it fell into the hands of these honky's that come out of the woods and just took everything back. So, when I arrived there, it was tough. You couldn't move, there was no upward mobility or anything like that. So we started to filing these charges then in '64. Then we started filing charges with EEOC.

HUNTLEY: So the Movement had an impact upon the way that you viewed your position in the workplace?

HENLEY: Yes. Because Andy Young used to come and I think it was Stokley Carmichael, all these organizations were trying to recruit people. Stokley Carmichael came and tried to recruit us. If you are working in industry, you really could be supportive of any kind of movement because of factory workers, you call them proletariat. So they would meet with us and talk about labor's untold story and all these things. But then Andy Young came and talked with us and told us that "Black power is what you all are doing here. You have formed a caucus in this all-White shop."

HUNTLEY: You mean Andy Young actually came to ACIPICO to come talk with you all?

HENLEY: No. He came to Birmingham at the A. G. Gaston Motel. We met down there.

HUNTLEY: So you never had a union per se at ACIPICO?

HENLEY: No.

HUNTLEY: But there was activity going on that related to organization of the Black workers?

HENLEY: Exactly. And we were that organization.

HUNTLEY: Well, how were you viewed then by your employer?

HENLEY: We were viewed as troublemakers. As a matter of fact when the sit-ins were going on downtown, we had a restaurant at ACIPICO. We had a White and Black side. We were sitting in out there too. Those were bold moves. Because we didn't have no union and the only representation you had was that Committee for Equal Job Opportunity.

HUNTLEY: What happened as a result of your sitting in out there?

HENLEY: As a result of our sitting in and filing charges, they had to tear the wall down. We would go, when you come out of that shop you would be sweating, you would be nasty and everything and you go over to the side and you walk by these people with these suits on and everything and sit down beside them and boy they drop the food. The best demonstration I saw about how they really disliked what we were doing was this big carpenter. I guess he weighed about 300 lbs. He came in there with his hammer one day and stood up at the cash register and that was supposed to scare a lot of people off you know.

HUNTLEY: This was a White carpenter?

HENLEY: Yes. And the work manager standing up there looking at him. And the fellows came up there and went through that line and brushed by him so fast and almost knocked him down standing there. I mean the fellows were really getting encouraged. The Movement caused that. The Movement caused the people to develop a conscious that it was time for us to do something. I mean people were really 00:43:00shedding all that filth that they had and everything. So it really had an effect, that kind of effect on me. It game me a conscious of what I need to be doing.

HUNTLEY: Well, since there was never an organized labor organization in the company, were there ever efforts to organize? Were there unions that came in to organize workers at this particular time?

HENLEY: Yes. I participated in at least three union campaigns. But during these campaigns, management had the freedom manipulate money any way that they wanted to manipulate it. Oh, if you are supposed to get a bonus and you hadn't been getting one, they would start giving you one. I remember in 1975 when we had the union campaign going on, we hadn't got a bonus in three years. When they started 00:44:00seeing union cards being passed out around there they started giving a bonus and gave a bonus for three years until it stopped all vestiges of that union campaign. We were successful one time in getting enough cards signed and I believe to win the election.

But what the company did, they had about 300 people they call supervisor and they could throw them in there and call them supervisors and supervisors are not supposed to vote. But they allowed them to vote. So that threw the election off. There was an older fellow talking about a union campaign they had and they had gotten it when the CIO was organizing it. They said that they had already gotten the union, wearing the buttons and everything and said the president, at the time, he found out that the Blacks were the ones that was doing the most 00:45:00campaigning and everything to get a union there.

So he had a meeting with the Black folks and said that he had a big tub sitting over there with a bunch of bow dollars in it. And he said he had a Black Jesus up on the wall. He said the president come in their crying, saying "Gentlemen, that man up there died for all of us. We have a good place out here to work in. Now these foreigners are going to come in here and take what we got. I can't let them do it. We can't let them do it." And those people started getting a handful of bow dollar and come out there crying. They lost that election.

HUNTLEY: Was this prior to you coming out there?

HENLEY: Yes. That was prior to me coming out there.

HUNTLEY: But he had a plan and a Black Jesus on the wall?

HENLEY: Had a Black Jesus on the wall. George Dully could tell you about it, he's dead now, but he could tell you about that better than I can. But they said it actually happened.

HUNTLEY: There has been some criticism in the Movement saying that the Movement 00:46:00ignored workers. Would you suggest that that was not the case and that the Movement was actively involved with workers as well?

HENLEY: Well, I think that people have to -- and, what you have to do. You have to position yourself to take advantage of this information. And I mean it was a lot of people, very important people to be met at these mass meetings. There were a lot of people that I met that had superior education, better education than I had, but I had more experience with what it was like working in those 00:47:00factories and things out there. And they could give me the expertise that they had of writing letters and everything. As a matter of fact, helping me to put newsletters together and everything. But I think it was a network of things going on in that Movement.

HUNTLEY: So you are saying then that the Movement, in effect, did assist workers in what they were doing on their jobs if in fact they were active and attempting to make some changes in their various work areas?

HENLEY: Exactly. Now the labor movement itself, the unions always had their separate things.

Labor unions couldn't do what we were doing because they were controlled by the national office and everything. We could file charges and we could say things 00:48:00even about the labor movement itself. Because the labor movement during this time was racist too. There was a whole lot of stuff that was going on that we have to challenge and people come to us and want to join our caucus because of their unions. So the labor movement, they could have been involved if they had wanted to be involved, but they wanted to do their own thing. And a lot of cases, that's what happened. They don't want to come in and join you in the overall effort but they want you to support what they do.

HUNTLEY: So the Movement itself was not necessarily part of the labor movement but individuals who were associated with the Movement could utilize what they learned in the Movement and actually utilize individuals in the Movement to 00:49:00assist them in accomplishing what they needed to accomplish on their jobs?

HENLEY: That's right.

HUNTLEY: So there was that sort of a relationship that developed in that regard?

HENLEY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What is your assessment of the Birmingham Movement? How successful was it?

HENLEY: I think that in '63 that was the apex of what the Birmingham Movement was all about. My assessment of it was that it raised the consciousness of a lot of people. A lot of people developed a political conscious, their religion took on a more meaningful thing because they were more faith based and what they were doing as a result of that Movement. People developed courage and developed a 00:50:00feeling that they were heading somewhere and they weren't going to turn back. And that feeling, it went on for a long time.

So my assessment is that it was very important. The Movement played a very important role. I think that sometime we have some catching up to do. But for what our foreparents did, people like Martin King, Malcolm X, people like that, not these conservative people who are coming on the scene now, establishing themselves as leaders, but you got to go back and see what your foreparents did. And I think we need to reassess that sometime and see where we got off track at. Because I think that the mass meetings, we need those in some forms now. I don't 00:51:00know how you do that. I was talking to my pastor about it. But we need those mass meetings now. One or two times a week. We need those now.

HUNTLEY: Why do you think we need them now?

HENLEY: Well, because of this affirmative action thing. We got one of the first affirmative action plans written on paper at ACIPICO. And if you don't have a national government supporting you in your efforts and the issues and the questions that you are raising down here locally, if you don't have the support from the Supreme Court, affirmative action don't mean anything. And it never has meant anything if you don't have no enforcement power, it doesn't mean anything.

HUNTLEY: You have been very helpful. I would just like one further question. Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with that's associated with the Movement and labor; at this point?

HENLEY: Well, I just want to -- one thing that I haven't heard too many people talk about. This family on Asberry Highland, but you told me you had interviewed them. And I think those are two very important people that should be interview. Also, I think that thing that we did at ACIPICO I think that needs to happen. And we did start trying to bring Black workers together from all these factories and we come together to have some dialogue about what's going on in the shop.

But now, we need even more than that. We need to bring people who have benefitted from the Movement, bring them together also in this dialogue, because they are catching some of the same hell that we caught in our shop from those 00:53:00cooperative people that's gone up the corporate ladder, they're going to have the same problem. And that's why I say we need to go back to what our foreparents did and see how they dealt with these situations. We got to get ourselves closer together because we are similar to the same problem now. I think we are going to reverse or we are going to repeat what we went through with.

HUNTLEY: Well, I really want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule. Obviously, what we are doing is trying to develop this for the Civil Rights Institute and if you have any items that are related to the Movement or the development of Birmingham that you would like to donate, please feel free to get in touch with us.

HENLEY: I do have. We have some things that we would like the Civil Rights Institute to have. Some of the documents and things that we filed with the 00:54:00different agencies and things. We even got our case in a congressional record during the time when they were having the hearings on the Civil Right Act of '64. So there are some documents that we have that we would like for the Civil Rights Institute to have.

HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. I appreciate your time.

HENLEY: Thank you.