Rev. George Johnson

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Rev. George Johnson for the oral history 00:01:00project of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. Today is April 13, 1995 and we are at Miles College. Rev. Johnson, thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit with us today to try to help us to develop the real story of Birmingham. Thank you for coming.

JOHNSON: Glad to be here.

HUNTLEY: I want to start by getting a little background information. Where were you born?

JOHNSON: I was born in Birmingham, Alabama in the East Birmingham community. And I have lived in that community most of my life until 1984 and I moved to 00:02:00Avondale as pastor of the Zion Spring Baptist Church.

HUNTLEY: What part of the state were your parents from?

JOHNSON: My parents were from Union Springs, Alabama at least my mother was. I don't know anything about my father. But my mother was from Union Springs and my brothers and sisters were from Union Spring. I'm the only exception being born in Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: Okay. How many brothers and sisters did you have?

JOHNSON: I had eight brothers and sisters.

HUNTLEY: How many older and how many younger?

JOHNSON: They all were older, because I'm the youngest of the nine.

HUNTLEY: Oh, you're the baby?

JOHNSON: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about your mother.

JOHNSON: My mother was a Christian woman and she reared us in the admonition and 00:03:00the fear of God and she did all of her children like that and there was only one exception to all of us coming to Christ and that was my oldest brother. He never did confess Christ, but all the others, those who are dead and those who still survive are Christians.

HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your mother do?

JOHNSON: My mother, here in Birmingham, she was more or less, not necessarily a maid, but she collected clothes from different White families and she washed them and ironed them and then we would return them. We would pick them up on Monday and then take them back on Thursday before school and so forth.

HUNTLEY: So you were intimately involved in that process?

JOHNSON: My brother and I were involved in the process of picking up and delivering.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about your educational background. Where did you start school?

JOHNSON: I started school at the East Birmingham Elementary School. That was the initial school. And from there -- in the 3rd grade I went to Kingston School and that school went from 3rd through the 5th. When I reached grade 6, I went to Thomas School and of course, I stayed at Thomas School until I finished. And in 1937 in January I graduated and went to Parker High and at that time it was so crowded we had to go to school at 11:30 and in 1938 they opened up Ullman High 00:05:00School and we transferred from Parker to Ullman. Ullman was a one year school at that time.

HUNTLEY: That was to the 10th grade?

JOHNSON: That was in the -- Ullman went from the 9th and 10th grade and later on they made it a full four year high school. But I stayed at Ullman one half term and went back to Parker in the 10th grade and that's where I completed my education at Parker.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school?

JOHNSON: After high school I went north for a few months.

HUNTLEY: Where did you go?

JOHNSON: I went to Cleveland, Ohio. I wanted to leave the south. I had brothers and sisters in Cleveland and they were telling me to come and I went and I was disenchanted with what I encountered there. I was under the impression that I 00:06:00would not encounter the same kind of thing that I encountered here in the South, but upon applying for a job in Cleveland, the first job I applied for they told me they didn't hire Blacks. And that put a bad taste in my mouth. And, of course, I got a job and worked 3 or 4 months and -- but I was headed back South and my brother told me you are a fool to go back. And I said "I'm going back and I'm going to work and stay in the South until we get things right there." And so, that's where I am.

HUNTLEY: So you then spent 3 or 4 months in Cleveland and then returned to Birmingham?

JOHNSON: Return to Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: What did you do upon returning?

JOHNSON: Upon returning in '41, I started working for the NAACP out at Sloss field. It was more or less a school. Most of the graduates from Parker went -- those who were in the choir, and I was in the choir at Parker and they had a 00:07:00choir at Sloss field and so Mr. Henry told those of us who wanted to go out there and they would give us a job. And so I went out to Sloss field and I worked there until I was hired at the L&N Railroad.

HUNTLEY: What did you do at Sloss?

JOHNSON: I cooked. I was in the cafeteria. I was a cook at Sloss field. And I participated with the choir and we traveled and so forth.

HUNTLEY: What was the group that you --

JOHNSON: It was the NYA choir. I don't mean the NAACP. I mean the NYA Choir National Youth Association.

HUNTLEY: Right. In fact that was a national organization. How long did you stay there?

JOHNSON: Oh, approximately 9 or 10 months.

HUNTLEY: Okay. And then you went from there to the L&N Railroad?

JOHNSON: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And what did you do at the L&N Railroad?

JOHNSON: At the L&N I went in as a common laborer and of course, we did cleaning and so forth in various places there in the shop and other related duties.

HUNTLEY: And how long did you stay with L&N?

JOHNSON: I started there in July and in -- in July 1942 and I worked there until I was called into service in May of 1943. And upon returning in '46 I went back to the L&N.

HUNTLEY: What branch of service did you go into?

JOHNSON: United States Navy.

HUNTLEY: The Navy? What was your job in the Navy?

JOHNSON: I went in as an apprentice seaman and when I was discharged after having spent about two years in the South Pacific, my main duty was ship's cook and I went in as an apprentice seaman and came out a Second Class Petty Officer.

HUNTLEY: Did you see any action while you were in the Navy?

JOHNSON: Not necessarily action. I was on a ship but the ship was transferring us from the United States to naval supply depot and that's where I spent about 19 months at naval supply depot and then I came to Pearl Harbor and spent about three months there. And I came back to the States discharged at that time.

HUNTLEY: Were there any events that you remember while you were in the service 00:10:00that sort of stick out in your memory?

JOHNSON: One event. I was on the list to go to Okinawa and at that time I had a special duty of cooking for officers. I was not a steward. I was in the seaman branch. But they would take cooks from the seaman branch and they would cook for officers and at that time I was doing that. And when the chief -- my chief saw my name on the list to go to Okinawa for invasion, he said "I'm not going to let you go. I'm going to get your name off the list," and he did. Of course, the others went and then in a few months many of those persons -- those who were not killed returned back to the base -- to the naval hospital there on that base wounded and so forth. So that stood out in my mind because maybe I would have 00:11:00been one of the victims had I gone to Okinawa for the invasion.

HUNTLEY: So you spent two years in the Navy?

JOHNSON: I spent 31 months in the Navy.

HUNTLEY: Okay. Nearly three years then?

JOHNSON: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Okay. And then after you are discharged from the Navy what did you do?

JOHNSON: I went back to L&N.

HUNTLEY: Went back to L&N?

JOHNSON: Yes and I started work there and then I enrolled in Booker T. Washington Business College.

HUNTLEY: Okay. Were you married at the time?

JOHNSON: I married in '47 and I was discharged in '46 and I started in Booker T. Washington in '48.

HUNTLEY: Okay. Now by this time of course, the military is about to be desegregated.

JOHNSON: Right.

HUNTLEY: Many of the Black servicemen who are returning were looking at changing 00:12:00the society through voting and other means. Did you become a registered voter upon returning to Birmingham?

JOHNSON: Yes. Upon returning I became a registered voter in 1948 after I started to Booker T. Washington Business College.

HUNTLEY: What prompted you at that time to become registered to vote?

JOHNSON: Well, one of my instructors was a lawyer that taught me business law and he impressed upon us to go and register to vote and he also told us how we probably could do it without a lot of fanfare. And so he told us to use psychology on the registrars. I applied that type of psychology and it worked so I was not given a real hard time when I applied.

HUNTLEY: Did you pass the very first time?

JOHNSON: I passed the very first time.

HUNTLEY: Who was your instructor that encouraged you?

JOHNSON: Philander Butler. He was an attorney with Dr. Gaston's business firm and he also taught business law. He taught me business law.

HUNTLEY: Okay. Were you at that time, a member of the NAACP?

JOHNSON: Yes I was.

HUNTLEY: Did you assist in any ...

JOHNSON: Now I was a member of the NAACP at that time in 1948, yes.

HUNTLEY: Did you assist in helping other people to register to vote as well?

JOHNSON: Yes. After I was passed and everything then I was president of our civil league in East Birmingham and we proceeded then to get as many persons as we could to register and vote. In fact we set up a lot of voter registration drives and what have you. There were several persons in the community who were 00:14:00instrumental in helping me as president to register the people and we were very well pleased with the outcome and those who responded to registering and voting. Of course we did other things in the community, but that's one thing we are proud of.

HUNTLEY: So voter registration was really a priority of the community at that time?

JOHNSON: Right.

HUNTLEY: Was that a priority around the city or was it basically of your community?

JOHNSON: Around the city I would say, but specifically in East Birmingham. East Birmingham was sort of a special community. The families were closely related.

HUNTLEY: This precedes the outlawing of the NAACP from operating in the State of Alabama in 1956. How did that impact upon you and your organization?

JOHNSON: I believe -- you said '56. I was under the impression that it was '55 that the NAACP was outlawed and upon the outlawing of the NAACP the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized to carry on the work of the NAACP and Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth was elected president. And knowing the plight of Blacks as related to job- the job situation, after we had been organized and we were meeting over the city; from community to community; from church to church...

HUNTLEY: Were you one of the charter members of the Alabama Christian Movement?

JOHNSON: I was not a charter member. I was not in the organization but I came on board after that after the Movement was organized.

HUNTLEY: So you did attend the Movement's mass meetings?

JOHNSON: Yes I did.

HUNTLEY: Did you attend on a regular basis?

JOHNSON: Yes. On a regular basis.

HUNTLEY: How would you describe the typical mass meeting?

JOHNSON: The typical mass meeting was inspirational. There was a lot of enthusiasm. The people were concerned about what they were doing and I was also concerned. And we were determined to make things happen in spite of the cost. And so when Dr. Shuttlesworth mentioned that we were going to test the system 00:17:00for jobs and go to the personnel board and apply for jobs, the first job mentioned was the job of police patrolman. And he threw it out to the house and I volunteered to go and there was another young man by the name of Clyde Jones, of course he fell out of the picture a little bit later on after we got things moving. So we applied. I applied rather. I was the litigant there and upon reaching the personnel board, Ray Mullen was the director of the personnel board. And I walked up and told him I wanted to apply for police patrolman. He looked at me and said "You don't qualify." I mean just by looking at me. And I 00:18:00asked the question then "Why is it I don't qualify?" So he showed me the application and it said "White Only."

HUNTLEY: It stated on the application?

JOHNSON: On the application "White Only."

HUNTLEY: What did you do at that point?

JOHNSON: At that time I returned -- we returned and so forth. I then sent a letter to him asking him to reconsider that and of course he did not. And we proceeded then to file a suit against the personnel board, City of Birmingham, and the State of Alabama.

HUNTLEY: Were you the only litigant?

JOHNSON: At that time. There were two at first and then after Clyde Jones then I became the only litigant there.

HUNTLEY: How did that then proceed through the courts?

JOHNSON: Well we started in the Jefferson County Court. We went from there to the State of Alabama and of course, each court refused to consider it. And 00:19:00finally it reached federal court and Judge Hubert Grooms heard the case and attorney Orzell Billingsley was my lawyer and after pleading the case, Judge Grooms ruled that the words "White Only" would have to come off of the applications and that all of the jobs in the city, the county and the state would be open to Blacks.

HUNTLEY: Then did you proceed to attempt to get one of these jobs?

JOHNSON: At that time I had passed -- for Birmingham I had passed the minimum age limit and I could not even file an application in Birmingham at that time because I had passed that age. I think it was 32 and at that time I was 33.

HUNTLEY: But your case was instrumental in getting the "White only" removed from the application?

JOHNSON: Yes. And others were able to apply not only for policeman jobs but for all the other jobs that the city and the county had.

HUNTLEY: So, in fact, the issue of policemen was the very first issue that the Movement actually dealt with I believe?

JOHNSON: As far as jobs were concerned. Now there were sit-ins, of course, lunch counters and so forth. But as far as jobs was concerned, the economics then that this was the first case.

HUNTLEY: Did you participate in any of the other demonstrations such as riding the buses?

JOHNSON: I participated in the marches. I did not ride any of the buses and so forth. Because, at that time I had started pastoring and there was some things 00:21:00connected with applying, having received threatening phone calls and having to sit up and so forth -- my health, my pressure went up and so forth and so I was not able to do too much along that line, you know because of doctors orders. He didn't want me to be under too much stress.

HUNTLEY: You went to the Baptist College, right?

JOHNSON: I went to Estonian Baptist Seminary and I became president of that school.

HUNTLEY: In addition, you also attended UAB is that correct?

JOHNSON: Yes. I attended UAB for one year and I also attended Southeastern Bible College for a year.

HUNTLEY: Were there other members of your family that were involved in the Movement?

JOHNSON: No more than moral support. I had my wife and family members were involved morally. They supported me but direct involvement, they were not directly involved in the Movement, no more than to support me morally.

HUNTLEY: But they did support you?

JOHNSON: Yes. Right.

HUNTLEY: So their reaction to your participation was a positive reaction?

JOHNSON: Yes a positive reaction.

HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested?

JOHNSON: No. The only thing that happened to me was threats, you know of bombing and what have you.

HUNTLEY: What kind of threats?

JOHNSON: And economic pressure was applied also. I was cut off at the L&N. I tried to get jobs at other places and ....

HUNTLEY: What do you mean you were "cut off at L&N?"

JOHNSON: They had a reduction in force.

HUNTLEY: So you were one of those...

JOHNSON: I was one. Of course I was called back a little bit later on, but by 00:23:00the time I was out of a job I applied at some places and they just didn't hire me.

HUNTLEY: Do you feel that was due to your activity with the Movement?

JOHNSON: I don't know. I think it had some connection but during that time though the Lord saw fit to call me into the ministry and that was in September 1958 and in January of 1959 I was called to my first church. So, the Lord saw fit to employ me, you know, through a call. And so I have been pastoring since that time.

HUNTLEY: What church were you initially called to?

JOHNSON: I was called to Greater New Bethel Baptist Church in an East Birmingham community. So it was a church where I was more or less reared and the people knew me and I was there for 25 years until 1984 when I was called to the church 00:24:00where I am presently.

HUNTLEY: Was your church active in the Movement?

JOHNSON: Some of them. At least they supported me. And then there were some who, you know, they were not directly involved. They had more or less a negative attitude. I don't think it was towards the Movement. It was more or less toward me rather, you know.

HUNTLEY: Were you able to have meetings at your church?

JOHNSON: No I did not have any at the church per say because our facilities were not adequate enough because the church where I was called, it was an old church and we didn't have the facilities. Later on we built a new sanctuary and so forth. But there was another church of a similar name -- New Bethel. It was 00:25:00Greater New Bethel and that church was born because of the association of my name with that church. Somebody miscalculated, you know, they bombed that church and thought they were bombing the church where I was pastoring.

HUNTLEY: Where was this church?

JOHNSON: It was located approximately six blocks from where I was pastoring.

HUNTLEY: In East Birmingham?

JOHNSON: In East Birmingham, yes.

HUNTLEY: So they miscalculated and ...

JOHNSON: Yes. Didn't do much damage, more or less to the front.

HUNTLEY: If I ask you to select maybe the three most important events during the period that we are discussing from 1956 to 1963 when the demonstrations took place, what would those events be?

JOHNSON: I would say the Alabama Christian Movement was perhaps the most 00:26:00important event in the City of Birmingham. Now it laid the ground work for what happened later. Now when Dr. King came aboard and this is not to take anything from him, but when he came aboard Rev. Shuttlesworth had pioneered the Movement. He had the people organized and so forth. So Dr. King did not have to go through the process per say of getting us organized. He had an organization here in Birmingham that was already in place. And so, he just sort of piggy backed on what was already there. And the moving of the "White only" from the personnel application was another big event because economics was involved. And this gave the Blacks a chance to apply for jobs and receive those jobs. It also opened up 00:27:00-- I was also involved in litigation concerning the legislature and running for public office along with Attorney Shores we applied and we were denied. So we had to file a suit along that line. Attorney Shores didn't qualify. I didn't qualify and we filed a suit along that line and of course, we won out there and he was able to apply and run for whatever he wanted and everybody else.

HUNTLEY: Was this done through -- under the auspices of the Alabama Christian Movement?

JOHNSON: Yes.

HUNTLEY: So, you used a lot of litigation then?

JOHNSON: Yes. I was involved in at least two litigations.

HUNTLEY: In 1961 the Freedom Riders came to Birmingham. What do you remember about that period?

JOHNSON: All I remember is that they were beaten. I also remember that on one occasion after the segregation of seating and restaurants and all of those things were declared illegal that I attended a meeting in Mobile, Alabama and I was to address the convention at that time. And I took my church with me.

HUNTLEY: To Mobile?

JOHNSON: To Mobile.

HUNTLEY: What convention was this?

JOHNSON: This was the New Progressive Baptist State Convention. I was president of the music department and I had to give an annual message. My choir and other members charted a bus to go. Upon arriving at a certain place in route, I think 00:29:00its Grove Hill, Alabama, the driver stopped for a rest, you know for a rest stop. And we go off the bus and of course, I assisted the women getting off the bus and the women went in the restaurant not knowing the segregation still prevailed there in Grove Hill. And they went in and started using the restroom and word had gotten over that city in about 10 minutes- the whole city had gathered there in Grove Hill. And the reason was they thought we were Freedom Riders.

HUNTLEY: Is this in the '60 or '61?

JOHNSON: Yes. Somewhere along in there. Of course, they locked all of the doors and wouldn't serve us and so forth. We got back on the bus and moved on out. But I just thought how close we came to being victims of segregation or brutality 00:30:00and so forth like here in Birmingham because we were thought to have been Freedom Riders. I don't remember the exact year of that but it was along that time.

HUNTLEY: In '62 the Miles College students and the Alabama Christian Movement came together and developed the Selective Buying Campaign downtown, where they boycotted stores. What do you remember about that period?

JOHNSON: I remember that it was very effective. We supported that movement and so forth and we were able to accomplish what we set out for. And there were persons who were hired by some stores in Birmingham to be clerks and so forth.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the atmosphere prior to the ending of those segregated facilities? Do you remember any incidents that you may have been involved with? Do you remember riding the buses or any of the ways in which segregation manifested itself in the daily lives of people?

JOHNSON: I didn't encounter anything that was more or less negative. To a large extent they accepted the fact that they were going to be there and so forth. So I didn't encounter anything negative. What I did encounter though was -- I encountered segregation as it relates to the federal government in '63. I didn't 00:32:00apply -- I was too old to be a police patrolman so I applied for a job with the federal government and I passed the test and I was called by Social Security. And I started to working there in '63 but what I encountered is that they would always doctor the tests. And they had requirements and everything that we had to meet in order to be promoted. And later on after having been there several years, they started a supervisor program. From the time I was hired in '63 up until I believe it was '73 we only had one Black supervisor.

HUNTLEY: This is at Social Security?

JOHNSON: At Social Security. And so they decided then that they were going to 00:33:00pool -- start a pool of supervisors and there were 15 selected and of those 15 there were three Blacks and I was one of the three Blacks. And so my question was how was I selected. Was I selected on merit. Was I just selected, you know, because they thought I was a, you know, a good so and so, you know. And so I was assured I was selected on merit. But, at the same time, the personnel director wanted to give us special attention and write it up all over the paper and so forth and I didn't agree to that. You know, this is what Social Security is doing here in Birmingham and I didn't agree to that because that was a reflection on the system also a reflection on us to want to have that publicity when we knew that they were not doing anything to help Blacks that much.

HUNTLEY: So you wouldn't cooperate?

JOHNSON: I didn't cooperate and I didn't receive the position either because I was warned that if I continued to rock the boat that I would not be selected.

HUNTLEY: So you worked for Social Security for about ten years?

JOHNSON: Thirteen.

HUNTLEY: For 13 years.

JOHNSON: I was finally selected though because one of my tutors asked me why I was not selected because he thought I was the most qualified, you know, having -- well, at that time, serving as pastor and all of that, you know. And so I told him and he said that I'm going to check into it, and he did. And in about two months I was made supervisor. It just shows you how the system worked. If you have somebody on the inside, that's working for you, that's how the system works.

HUNTLEY: What benefits did you, your family and community realize as a result of the Movement?

JOHNSON: The only benefit I have realized is the satisfaction that I have done something to bring all of this to fruition. You know, I am satisfied with myself that I made a contribution. Now, I am not satisfied with not even the Civil Rights Institute because many of us who were beneficial in getting this stuff started have been overlooked and so forth.

HUNTLEY: How do you think that should have been done differently? The development of the Institute?

JOHNSON: I think the persons who involved should have been -- should have had some input. You know, Rev. Shuttlesworth and Rev. Woods and so forth. I think they should have been involved in making the selection of persons that they should have given the recognition to.

HUNTLEY: Both of them are on the Board of Directors.

JOHNSON: They are now.

HUNTLEY: That's one of the reasons you are probably here now is because you were selected by that advisory committee who is doing that. So evidently the word is out that there are people like you who are very concerned about how the selections have been made.

JOHNSON: In fact my wife mentioned this morning, say "It's been so long I wouldn't even worry about it, you know what you've done, so if they didn't give you the recognition at that time.." In fact, Rev. N. H. Smith asked me had I ever received any and I said "No, I haven't." But I know what I did. And so I am satisfied.

HUNTLEY: Well, that's why we are doing this so that we can recognize people who have not been recognized and we are going to set the record straight on the Movement itself.

JOHNSON: Okay. I appreciate that.

HUNTLEY: This is what we are about and I appreciate you doing this. If you were 00:37:00in control of the Movement and could go back and change some things, what would you change?

JOHNSON: Like what for instance?

HUNTLEY: During the Movement say from '56 to '65 or so?

JOHNSON: I would be like -- I was in the Navy as I've already said and we had an admiral that -- whose name was Farragut and when he would encounter problems and so forth, of the enemy doing damage. His words were "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead." So I would say we would do the same thing maybe with more involvement than we even had back there then. I don't regret anything that we 00:38:00did because it took all of that to get us where we are now.

HUNTLEY: What is your assessment of the Birmingham movement? How successful was it? What were the major accomplishments and were there any failure?

JOHNSON: The major accomplishments as it relates to the Movement?

HUNTLEY: Yes, sir.

JOHNSON: Well, I think most Blacks are aware of the accomplishments who were living at that time. What was then and what is now, you know. But there are still prestige of segregation. We have the rights but we haven't changed the minds of too many people yet. There is still "White flight," you know. I'm in a neighborhood where I can see it, you know, still "White flight." It doesn't matter how you take care of your property and so forth. They are still moving 00:39:00and I am also involved with the Southern Baptist. We have a committee here called Inter-Baptist Fellowship Committee.

And it's a liaison between White Baptists and Black Baptists and we try to bring the two together for common good. And we are really having a problem. And we are starting -- this involves the best they have, the ministers and they are afraid, you know. Because I feel that the Black pastor is the only free pastor we have. The Black Baptist pastor is the only free pastor we have here involved in our churches, you know, because they have to cater to more or less to what their members say, not what the Lord say but what their members say. And so we're 00:40:00having a problem of trying to bring in programs involving all of them because they are afraid of what their members say if they get too much involved with this. So, as a result their churches are moving out and we are running in getting their churches and so forth which is sort of a sad commentary on our Christian faith.

HUNTLEY: I guess it is rather ironic that it appears that the last bastion of segregation happens to be the church?

JOHNSON: Happens to be the church.

HUNTLEY: How do we account for that?

JOHNSON: I would say that we have Christ in our learning. We have Christ in our system, but we don't have Christ in our hearts. If Christ was in our hearts, 00:41:00then everybody would be a brother. You see we have Christ everywhere but where he should be and that's in the heart. And I don't say its on the part of the Blacks but we, to some extent, we have a lot of it to, you know.

HUNTLEY: So you are talking about a certain amount of hypocrisy now?

JOHNSON: It's hypocrisy. That's a good example of hypocrisy.

HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with in relationship to the Movement?

JOHNSON: I wouldn't add anything as far as the Movement is concerned. But I am very concerned now as a result of the Movement where we are now, you know. The white man is not lynching us now. He is not doing these things to us now. We are 00:42:00doing it to each other and it reflects on what has been done -- the sacrifices that have been made by many people who have even died for that and the children now don't know enough about what happened back then and so our job now is to educate our young people as to where the Lord has brought them from. And I think that's our main job so that we can get back to the kind of life that we were living because our only help came from sticking together and working together during that time, you know. And now we are getting to the point we hardly know each other.

HUNTLEY: So you are saying that we need to teach this history of the civil 00:43:00rights movement so that we can know from whence we've come?

JOHNSON: That's right.

HUNTLEY: Do you see the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute playing a role in that?

JOHNSON: The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute should have a big role in that. But I don't think we should all leave it to the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Those of us who are pastoring and what you should see to it that our children, at least, and we should move into the schools and let them know. We should contend that history books are written so that the Civil Rights Movement would be part of the history, more in detail than maybe -- I am not sure that we even have any Black history books now. They did when I was in school, you know, but I'm not sure we even have any Black history books now that would, in detail, 00:44:00give this kind of information and that's real sad. So how are they going to learn in school when they can't study the history of the Blacks.

HUNTLEY: There are some and what we are hoping to do with this material that we are getting now -your interview for instance, we are hoping at some point that we will be able to utilize this to write the definitive study of the Civil Rights Movement. And the only way you can do that is by going to the people who were there, who were involved and that is people like you.

JOHNSON: Let me ask you this question. What effect has it had? I know at one time you and some of the others at UAB fought to have a school set up for this. What happened?

HUNTLEY: Well, we're still struggling with that issue. There are some of us who 00:45:00believe there is a need for a Department of African American Studies. And what has happened I developed a program there 15 years ago and the program, you can just go so far with that. There's a need now to expand that and the way that you do that in academia is to develop a department and the administration basically has been rather resistant to that idea. But we're still struggling with that and ...

JOHNSON: Is there a way that in the churches can help along that line? Is there a separation of...you know.

HUNTLEY: It's always important that we have the community involved and as it progress we will be in touch with people like yourself in the community to try and get that done.

JOHNSON: Okay.

HUNTLEY: I appreciate you asking that because there are not many people that are 00:46:00asking those kinds of questions. Lastly, do you have any items related to the Movement or to the development of Birmingham that you would like to donate to the Institute?

JOHNSON: I looked today. I had some -- I have -- I don't know where I can put my hands on it. I had letters that I wrote to the personnel board and I had a few news clippings. That's about the only thing. Because when I talked to Lois, she said we didn't know we were making history so as a result we didn't reserve too much. We are bad on reserving our history anyway.

HUNTLEY: Well, if you come across any material get in touch with myself or with Ms. Hendricks or with the archivist at the Institute and we very much appreciate it. And again, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule and 00:47:00you coming and sitting with us to help us really develop this story. Because the only way you get the true story is from the people who were involved and you of course were one of those. Thank you again.

JOHNSON: It has been a pleasure.