Emma Smith Young

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Emma Young for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College and today is September 29, 1995.

Thank you Mrs. Young for taking time out of your vacation to talk with us about the civil rights movement. You are here from Chicago, right?

YOUNG: Right.

HUNTLEY: I want to start by asking some general questions about your background. Where were you from?

YOUNG: My home is Camden, Alabama in Wilcox County.

HUNTLEY: Were your parents from Wilcox County?

YOUNG: Yes.

HUNTLEY: How long did you live in Wilcox County?

YOUNG: Until I was between 17 and 18 when I left there. I came to Birmingham in 1921.

HUNTLEY: And you were born what year?

YOUNG: 1902.

HUNTLEY: So, that makes you how old. you are 92 years old?

YOUNG: 92 years old. I will soon be 93.

HUNTLEY: So, you will soon be 93 years young. That's great.

HUNTLEY: Did you have any brothers and sisters?

YOUNG: Yeah. I had one sister.

HUNTLEY: Is she still living?

YOUNG: No, she died several years, ago. Her name was Lola McGraw.

HUNTLEY: And how many children did you have?

YOUNG: Three.

HUNTLEY: Three children.

YOUNG: One boy and two girls.

HUNTLEY: And were they born in Wilcox County?

YOUNG: Two of them were, the two oldest ones. Dave and Eula Mae were born in Camden. And Mamie was born in Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: Well, when you moved to Birmingham, what kind of work were you doing?

YOUNG: I wasn't doing any work at the time. My mother was farming and I was going to school.

HUNTLEY: How much schooling did you have?

YOUNG: I didn't get but to the fifth grade.

HUNTLEY: Did you live with your mother and your daddy?

YOUNG: Yes. I lived with my mother, because my daddy was gone. . .

HUNTLEY: Well, how old were you when he left?

YOUNG: I was age four, when he left.

HUNTLEY: Then you remained in Camden and you moved to Birmingham, actually, after you married, right?

YOUNG: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your husband do?

YOUNG: He did cement work.

HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to move from Camden to Birmingham?

YOUNG: Well, my mother got tired of Camden's White people. At the end of the 00:06:0000:05:00farm season they took out too much pay. Mamma didn't make but two bales of cotton and they took those two for their pay and left her with nothing. So she said she was leaving there. Then and going someplace where she could do better.

HUNTLEY: So, she left before you left?

YOUNG: Yes, she left, first and then, me and my husband decided to leave. After my husband checked with my step-daddy about a job at the cement plant.

HUNTLEY: So, your husband worked in the cement plant when he first got here?

YOUNG: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Did you live with your mother when you first got here?

YOUNG: Yes, at first, but me and my husband got a room... a house ...a two room house.

HUNTLEY: Well, how long did he work in the cement plan? Did he go into another occupation?

YOUNG: Well, after he left there he went so many different places, but he ended up in the ore mine. And that's where he died ...in the ore mine.

HUNTLEY: So, he worked many years in the ore mine.

YOUNG: That's where he retired...in the ore mine.

HUNTLEY: What community did you live in when you first got here?

YOUNG: Hillman.

HUNTLEY: In Hillman.

YOUNG: Hillman Station.

HUNTLEY: And what church were you affiliated with?

YOUNG: Hopewell.

HUNTLEY: Hopewell Baptist Church?

YOUNG: Yes. Hopewell Baptist Church.

HUNTLEY: And when he started to work in the mines, did you still stay in Hillman?

YOUNG: No. we moved all around. We moved down in Cairo. You know where St. Luke?

HUNTLEY: Right.

YOUNG: Well, she joined St. Luke, then and after she joined St. Luke, I joined St. Luke.

HUNTLEY: Then, were you still living in Hillman at that time?

YOUNG: We were at the time...but after he started working in the ore mine, we 00:09:00moved to Woodward's. Right down there on Woodward's Ore Mine.

HUNTLEY: So, he worked for Woodward's Ore Mine?

YOUNG: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Were you renting a house from the company?

YOUNG: Yes. Yes.

HUNTLEY: How long did you live there? Did you move from there? And then did you move to another place?

YOUNG: Well, we moved all around. We when back to Hillman then, we left Hillman and when to Grasselli Height where we are, now.

HUNTLEY: Were you renting on Grasselli Heights or were you buying your own home?

YOUNG: We were buying on Grasselli Heights.

HUNTLEY: So, that was sort of a move up, then when you moved to Grasselli Heights.

YOUNG: Yes. We had moved up. And Mamma had got on social security, but they did 00:10:00not call it social security then. They called it....

HUNTLEY: ...pension.

YOUNG: P.T.A. or something.

HUNTLEY: Okay. But she was receiving monies from the government, I assume?

YOUNG: From the government, yes.

HUNTLEY: Was she living with you all at that time?

YOUNG: No. She was living in her house. We were living in ours.

HUNTLEY: Were they close together, in the same community?

YOUNG: Yes. That's when we were in Hillman we lived close together. But on Grasselli Heights, where we are now, we lived together.

HUNTLEY: What kind of work did you do? You had three children. We know that when you were in Camden, you were a housewife.

YOUNG: Yes.

HUNTLEY: When you got to Birmingham, did you work outside of the home?

YOUNG: Yes. I always run my ad and I would get a job for being just a maid. Or else I would be a cook, something like that, for housework. Well, then I did this.

HUNTLEY: What is that washing, the rub board?

YOUNG: Rub board. Well we did the rub board wash at that time.

HUNTLEY: Did you take washing into your home or did you go to their home?

YOUNG: I go to their home and do it. Finally, I started taking it in my home. When I got up high enough to get me a washer and dryer of my own, then I went to taking in washing and ironing. I would wash for all the people that were working 00:12:00out somewhere and didn't have to wash when they come home. When they come home they would be too tired to wash. So I be done washed the clothes and ironed them.

HUNTLEY: Were these Black folk or White folk that you were washing for?

YOUNG: Well, I worked both colors, the Black and the White.

HUNTLEY: You also worked as a cook, right?

YOUNG: Yes. I was a cook at first, but I went up from there to a laundry. And I worked at the Snow White Laundry and I just can't think of the first one I worked at. But, then I went up from there to the hotel. I worked at the Gary 00:13:00Hotel in Bessemer. I worked in a hotel in Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: We never could figure out where that hotel was, but you evidently were pretty good at what you did, because you could always get a job, is that right?

YOUNG: Yes, I could always get a job because I could iron shirts so good. I could fix collars like men like them you know. I could keep that crease from (Inaudible) and I could handle a shirt so good, everybody wanted me to wash and iron for them. So one lady I worked for, Miss Florence, one day I quit that because she was trying to make a fool out of me. She said, "Oh, my girl just work. She can iron a shirt like nobody's business. Oh, I wish you could iron one 00:14:00for me. I'll get one over there for you and I'll put two or three clothes in with my clothes and (Inaudible) let you see how she can iron." So she went and put them in and I knew the clothes. And she said, I asked her, "Why did she have more clothes this week?" I said, "I don't like you adding more clothes than I been washing." She said, "All them was my clothes." Well, I found out they were Ms. Daniels clothes and her name was Ms. Florence, and I just walked off and left them there.

HUNTLEY: So you didn't finish that job?

YOUNG: She had the clothes spread on the ground. When I got there (Inaudible) fire made up and everything ready and when she saw me again I was back at home.

HUNTLEY: So you decided that you were not going to iron for somebody and not get paid for it?

YOUNG: I said, "I'm not going to let her make a fool out of me." I say, "I'm not 00:15:00going to wash those other people's clothes. If they want me, let them hire me." Then she went to tell me, "Emma, (Inaudible) job for you. Can't you do another job?" I say, "Oh, yes, (Inaudible)" I wasn't making but $3.00 at that one. And so, I say, "Well, I could take something and do those three with the $3.00." Because I could take $1.00 and go put it on a layaway and put that other dollar on another layaway and when the end of the month, I would have all my dollars get together and get all that stuff out. So I'd have plenty.

HUNTLEY: So you were usually pretty well dressed?

YOUNG: Yes. They wondered, "where that woman get so much of something." "Where she get so and so." They couldn't tell where I was getting it from because I was working and getting it. But it wasn't none of their business. So I said, I work and get what I got. I'm entitled to use what I got and that's what I'm going to do.

HUNTLEY: So you were working for yourself and your children, I assume?

YOUNG: Yes, my three children. My husband is gone over to the bootlegger's house.

HUNTLEY: Did you have a close relationship with him?

YOUNG: I didn't take up with him at all. I just let him be there. I didn't take up with bootleggers. He said I thought I was better than them. Well, I didn't take up what I didn't like, that kind of stuff. I wanted to go to church every Sunday and everyday I wanted to go to church, so I did. I left my husband because he wanted to know why didn't I go with him sometime. I said, "Why don't you go with me sometime."

HUNTLEY: So you both were doing different kinds of things?

YOUNG: Yes. He went to the bootleggers and I went to church.

HUNTLEY: Well, how did that effect your children?

YOUNG: Oh, it affected my children very much because he was in and out. Living over there this week, and next week over there. And living with a step mamma over there. And living with me over there and living with him over there. We did that for a long time. But altogether we stayed together for 50 years.

HUNTLEY: You and your husband were together for 50 years?

YOUNG: We stayed together for 50 years.

HUNTLEY: And that's remarkable, because of course, people stay together 50 minutes.

YOUNG: Two hours.

HUNTLEY: Well, I know that you were very active in the Movement. I would just like to ask you a question about the Movement. At the time the Movement was going on in 1963, well even before then, you attended the mass meetings.

YOUNG: I went to all of the mass meetings.

HUNTLEY: Well, tell me what was the mass meeting like?

YOUNG: It was fine. We would sing and pray and pick up money to pay to the Supreme Court.

HUNTLEY: Pay to the Supreme Court?

YOUNG: To the man that the Supreme Court would give us what we wanted. Because he tell him I want my freedom and I want it now. They said you couldn't get it now, you had to wait for it. They said, I don't want to wait. I want my freedom now. We helped to get his freedom now.

HUNTLEY: So that was what the Movement was about, was about freedom?

YOUNG: Yes. Freedom Riders. He told us Freedom Riders. They named us Freedom Riders and I was riding everywhere they rode.

HUNTLEY: So the meetings were at different places, this is what you are referring to?

YOUNG: Yes, different churches. Sometimes we have so many, we have two or three churches full. We have the walkie talkies and everything over there in the (Inaudible) homes and the talk over there in that church. We could hear what they were saying over there.

HUNTLEY: You knew Fred Shuttlesworth?

YOUNG: Yes. Shuttlesworth was the president.

HUNTLEY: He was the president of the Alabama Christian Movement. Who were some of the other individuals that you got to meet that were...YOUNG: Rev. Gardner after Shuttlesworth put it down, he took it up. Then Abernathy and Andy Young and some more, I can't remember all of them. James Bevill and so, we just had a meeting all the time until we raised the money to get us up to where we wanted to get.

HUNTLEY: You were raising money to keep the Movement going?

YOUNG: Keep the Movement going and to get to where we were trying to get to. We were trying to get a chance to sit on the buses without being interrupted or having to go to the back. When you get on a bus, just sit down, he said. Rev. Martin Luther King had told us, when you get on the bus, have a seat right there, don't pick no seat. Don't go back there in the back. If they tell you to get up, don't get up, so we didn't. I got a kick out of sitting there.

HUNTLEY: You mean you sat on the buses?

YOUNG: I sat right there and they get up there beside me, they would put their books down to keep you from sitting there. I take the book and put it on over (Inaudible).

HUNTLEY: Oh, you mean some White person would get on the bus and sit down and, then, put their book in the seat so you could not sit down?

YOUNG: Yes.

HUNTLEY: So you would move the books?

YOUNG: I'd move the book and put it anywhere and I'd just sit, right where I'm sitting. Martin Luther had told me what to do and so I was doing it. One lady come along and she said, "Don't bother that nigger, that's one of them old Martin Luther King niggers." I said, "Yes, I am."

HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested for sitting on the bus?

YOUNG: No, I wasn't arrested, because Martin Luther King told me don't say a word, don't you hit them, just don't hit them and let them hit you but don't you hit them. Just sit there and don't say a word and don't move.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever take part in any of the demonstrations?

YOUNG: I went in all of the demonstrations. Every time we marched up to city hall, I marched up there. Everywhere they wanted to march. We marched to Selma, I marched down there.

HUNTLEY: Tell me what some of the demonstrations were like here in Birmingham? You were at 16th Street Baptist Church?

YOUNG: 16th Street Baptist Church when they put all the water on Shuttlesworth (Inaudible).

HUNTLEY: You were there when Shuttlesworth was hit with water and knocked off the steps at 16th Street?

YOUNG: Dave tried to go across there, my son Dave, and pick up Shuttlesworth to keep them from killing him. And, Bull Conner sitting right over there talking about "Put that water on the nigger." He just put the water on him and Shuttlesworth go farther, farther and farther. They were just wetting him, wetting up Dave and he got so mad, he wanted to go on out there and I pulled him back. I said, "Don't go out there, that man say for you not to come out of there." Dave wanted to just buck against me and go out there anyway. I say, "Don't you go out there and let that man kill you because I couldn't take it. I couldn't stand here and see him shoot you down."

HUNTLEY: So this is your son, now. He was real active in the Movement?

YOUNG: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Was that why you were involved because he was there?

YOUNG: Yes. That's why I was there. I got started on account of him. He was 00:23:00going and his wife wanted to go and, then, I wanted to go. (Inaudible) soon enough. When he said, let's go, I'm going to the Movement. He said, "All right, get ready, mamma." I said, "I'm ready."

HUNTLEY: Did your husband ever attend any of the meetings?

YOUNG: He didn't ever go.

HUNTLEY: Why didn't he go?

YOUNG: He didn't pay it no attention. He thought nothing of it. He say, "Them folk going to kill y'all out there acting a fool." That's all he would give us. They called him Uncle Tom.

HUNTLEY: What did your son say about his father not participating?

YOUNG: He said "All old folks ought to be dead."

HUNTLEY: "All old folks ought to be dead?" What did you say to that?

YOUNG: I say, "Why you think all old folks." I say, "Your mamma and your papa both is old. He say, "I can't help it." He say, "Because all them old folks out 00:24:00the way, these young folks can get something done." I said, "I tell you what, if these old folks would get themselves down there," I'll tell you I said, "In the place of getting anything done (Inaudible) things done too fast and wanted to do what they wanted to do and they can't get it done like that.

HUNTLEY: So you didn't agree with that statement then?

YOUNG: I didn't agree with that statement. I loved to get out of there with them. But when they say "Ain't going to let nobody turn me around," I was right there. Don't let (Inaudible) Bull Conner turn us around.

HUNTLEY: Well, that was a song, right? How did it go?

YOUNG: "Ain't gonna let Bull Conner turn me 'round, turn me 'round, turn me 'round. Ain't gonna let Bull Conner turn me 'round, I'm gonna keep on a walking, keep on a talking, walking up the kingdom land." I was right there.

HUNTLEY: Were the children there with you? Were any of your grandchildren there, as well?

YOUNG: All my grandchildren were there. Your wife and all the rest of them.

HUNTLEY: Did any of them go to jail?

YOUNG: Yeah, all of them went to jail. They filled up the jail so fast, they had to put them in the schoolhouse yard. One of my grandchildren (Inaudible), she went to hollering out and calling back to her mother that she wanted to get out that place because they got her out there in the rain. And they didn't have nowhere to put them. They put them out there in that schoolhouse yard and fence up high, they couldn't get over the fence. They fixed a high fence up so they couldn't get over the fence.

HUNTLEY: That was at Fair Park, right?

YOUNG: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And your grandson was also in jail at the same time?

YOUNG: My grandson was already in jail. They carried him off. They put him in the paddy wagon and gone. Also, Martin Luther King.

HUNTLEY: But your son was also in jail?

YOUNG: Yes.

HUNTLEY: How long did he stay in?

YOUNG: He stayed in jail about a month, a week or two, something like that.

HUNTLEY: Didn't he refuse to come out at one point?

YOUNG: One point, Martin Luther King refused to come out, because they was trying to not give him any water, not feed him and all that stuff.

HUNTLEY: There was a situation once where some White ministers that were in the meeting, would you tell me about that?

YOUNG: The Rabbis come from Baltimore or somewhere they said, up the country, somewhere. This place had just got burned up, bombed.

HUNTLEY: 16th Street?

YOUNG: No.

HUNTLEY: Not a church?

YOUNG: No. The place. The community, the City, got bombed not too long ago.

HUNTLEY: Oklahoma City.

YOUNG: That's it. Some of the Rabbis were from up there at Oklahoma City. And they came down to help us because we were in trouble. They said they intended to come down and help us and they wanted to hear how it go. And they wanted to sit there and see how they was treating us. And Bull Conner told them to go in there and get them damn niggers out of there.

HUNTLEY: Get the Rabbis?

YOUNG: Yes. He took all our Rabbis out the church, coming in there with their gattling guns on and their guns hanging on their shoulders and here they come "Get up, and let's go." And they followed. They went on with the meeting. Then the man told him, he said, "All right. Bull Conner done come in here and got our people that come to help us and visited us, and have disturb our meeting. We 00:28:00going, all the whole church going down to city hall. That's where we are going to preach at today. We are going to have a meeting down there." With our company that had come with us.

HUNTLEY: Now, these people that they took out were White, right?

YOUNG: Yes. All of them were White.

HUNTLEY: So then the entire church...

YOUNG: Bull Conner got him a crowd and he got up in his paddy wagon and say, "Hey y'all people, go back home." He wouldn't call us niggers then. He said, "All y'all people go on back home, back to your church." And we say, "You didn't let us have no peace in our church, so we're going down to city hall and do just what we're doing at the church."

HUNTLEY: So, did you go along with them?

YOUNG: I was right along there with them and Bull Conner was putting the water on us as we go, wetting us up. And we went on down, anyway. (Inaudible) We was 00:29:00going anyway, we was stepping over the water. Everybody was going on (Inaudible) praying and singing. Singing that song about "Ain't gonna let nobody turn me around." So we went on and (Inaudible) they were singing (Inaudible) "Ain't gonna let nobody turn me 'round." We say, we going on, Bull Conner ain't gonna turn us around. So they hosed us out there putting the water on us, (Inaudible). So the pipes stopped running. All the water run out from somewhere. So, he say, "What's the matter with y'all. Why don't you put that water on them. I said put the water on them." One man told him, say, "I'll tell you where I'm going, I'm going back home and eat breakfast with my wife.

HUNTLEY: This was a fireman?

YOUNG: Yes. (Inaudible) talking about God done stopped the water. He said he was scared to mess with that water and he said, "Well, won't no water come out," to Bull Conner.

HUNTLEY: So the water just stopped?

YOUNG: So we just stepped over the line and went on and kept going. Ain't gonna let nobody turn us around and we didn't let nobody turn us around until we got to City Hall. And we preached, prayed, shouted, sang, everything we was going to do at the church, we did it down there.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember when the 16th Street Church was bombed and those little girls were killed?

YOUNG: Yes, but I wasn't there at the time. I just heard it. I knew about them, but I wasn't there.

They were at Sunday School and I didn't go to Sunday School.

HUNTLEY: Did you go to another church?

YOUNG: Yes. I went to Galilee Baptist Church. So, I wasn't there, but I went to the funeral.

HUNTLEY: Oh, you were at the funeral?

YOUNG: Yes. At 6th Avenue Baptist Church.

HUNTLEY: What was that like? What do you remember about that day?

YOUNG: The funeral?

HUNTLEY: Yes.

YOUNG: Oh, we had a gang of Rabbi's there. We had the whole back church with Rabbis in it that day. (Inaudible) they just rolled in one by one, one by one and one by one. (Inaudible) That's what I wanted to see.

HUNTLEY: So the church was packed?

YOUNG: Packed. Packed to capacity and I was right there looking down on them when they rolled them in right by me.

HUNTLEY: You also participated in the Selma to Montgomery March?

YOUNG: Yes. We went down there. We got us some buses to go because it was too far to walk. We wouldn't try to walk like they did down in Camden, where they got beat up.

HUNTLEY: Viola Liuzzo?

YOUNG: Yes. She got killed down there trying to help them. But we got buses and went down to the schoolhouse yard. When we got to the schoolhouse yard in the buses, we put the buses up there because we had nowhere to park them. We got off the bus and walked from there on up to George Wallace and his capital. He was 00:33:00standing there when we got there. He said, "You can't come in here." So we couldn't come in there but we sit right down out there and spread us some quilts down there and took the place. Every store was closed with people looking out the windows wondering what we were doing. And, while we were walking I got so tired I wanted to give up. One of the Rabbi's was walking right by me and said, "Lady, you can't give up now, because we down here to help y'all. You better go on down there." He said, "Give me your coat." He took my coat and said, "I'll carry it for you. Now you can hold up and walk, can't you? So we walked until we 00:34:00got to the capital and, then, we sat down.

HUNTLEY: You also participated at the funeral of Dr. King in Atlanta?

YOUNG: I had a heart attack down there.

HUNTLEY: At the funeral?

YOUNG: Trying to get to the funeral. I was in the church yard, but the crowd was so big until I couldn't get no further than the yard. And, I stood right there and got so tired that I wanted to fall dead, just standing out there. So I felt myself getting sick and I went over there and I see a crowd sitting on the steps over there, at somebody's house and I went over there and sat down on that step 00:35:00and blacked out right there. They had nurses watching you. When I told them who I had come with, they ran around calling for Bernice Young and Dave Young. They came and saw about me and gave me a cold drink of water. I got up from there and went down to Morehouse yard, then.

HUNTLEY: So you didn't go to the hospital?

YOUNG: No. I didn't go to a hospital. That nurse had doctored on me out there. The water and that drink got me back to normal. So after that, we got some, they 00:36:00let us have the streetcar then to ride. (Inaudible) buses and things were going down from the church to Morehouse. We got there in those buses and went on down to that Morehouse and got out and got on the yard. We didn't get no further than the yard there, but we could hear everything they were saying because they had 00:37:00those loud speakers and we could hear everything they were saying.

HUNTLEY: What was Birmingham like before the Movement?

YOUNG: Oh, my goodness. Before the Movement, I was having a time then. Having an over here and over there time.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember most about how you related to Whites and how Whites related to you? In riding the buses did you ever go downtown to shop?YOUNG: Oh, yes. I used to go downtown all the time. You know they had a streetcar that was a double length. One end up here belongs to the White people and that end back there belongs to the Negroes. And, so, we had to get back 00:38:00there. If we're sitting in this part when the White folks on, we had to get off and stand up. If there wasn't any room in the back, you just stood up until you find yourself a seat. But, if a White person come in, then, and wanted to sit there, you had to get up, because the man, who's driving the car, would get out of his seat and come back there and ask you "Would please let so and so have this seat?" We had White folks seat. So we had to get up then and let them have the seat. But I got so when I wouldn't get up.

HUNTLEY: You refused to get up?

YOUNG: I refused to get up.

HUNTLEY: Then what would happen?

YOUNG: Didn't nothing happened. But that bus rode and that man stayed on that bus. The driver wouldn't try to make you do anything, but the man who used to drive the bus would come and ask you up. Well, you would pay the rider no 00:39:00attention if they are riding just like you, but if he come back there and tell you, "I'll take the board," and it's sitting here and you move it back, then they want you to move back. So if he didn't come back, we could ride on. (Inaudible) But he come back there and move his seat back. You had to get back.

HUNTLEY: You wouldn't refuse when the driver came back?

YOUNG: Yes. We wouldn't refuse. We'd get on up and get in that back and stand up until we get--Martin Luther King say "You're a fool. Don't you know you paid your money just like they paid theirs." He said, "Don't get up. Sit right there and let them know that you paid the same thing they paid."

HUNTLEY: That is what they are talking about during the meetings?

YOUNG: Yes. That's what we were fighting about and praying about.

HUNTLEY: So, do you think that the Movement was successful?

YOUNG: The Movement was real successful, because of all the things they didn't allow. Bull Conner didn't allow them to drink water where Negroes drink water at. Shuttlesworth and Martin Luther King move it and told them, "Ain't no such thing as White water and Black water." He said, "Just drink water." "Whenever you get some water, just drink you some water and don't pay that no attention." Well, we were paying that money in the Movement to pay for that being done.

HUNTLEY: To get it changed?

YOUNG: Yes. Those words had come through the big men on the Supreme Court.

HUNTLEY: How did you feel though before that Movement started and you would have to go down and you would have drink out of the "Colored" fountains, or you couldn't sit at the lunch counters to eat?

YOUNG: We thought nothing of it. I didn't think nothing of it. You know I didn't know no better.

HUNTLEY: You just thought that was just the way it was?

YOUNG: Yes. This is the way of doing and that's their way of doing it and to keep from getting into an argument or something, you go on and do like the rules say do. But, after we paid a lot of money to the Supreme Court, they say you don't have to do like that. When they told me you don't have to do like that, well, if you had to pay so much for them to make it legal, and they did.

HUNTLEY: So the Supreme Court, obviously what you're doing, you're talking about the Supreme Court and Brown v. Board of Education who changes the school system, for instance. Who talks about separate but equal was illegal?

YOUNG: Yes. (Inaudible) Colored children (Inaudible) to school. Bull Conner and George Wallace didn't like that at all. No Black and White going to school together. George Wallace said it wasn't going to happen. No Blacks was going to no school with White folks.

HUNTLEY: "Segregation now, Segregation forever."

YOUNG: "Segregation now, segregation forever." And he stood in the school house door and said, "You ain't coming by here." (Inaudible) when they tried to go to Tuscaloosa.

HUNTLEY: The University of Alabama?

YOUNG: Yes. George Wallace got in that door, but a man probably about this much taller than him said, "Would you step aside?" "Oh, yeah, I'll do this." And he 00:43:00stepped aside. I remember him saying, "Any nigger come in here he going to go over my dead body." But when that man come by there he didn't say anything. I looked up and got something and stepped aside.

HUNTLEY: His name was Katzenbach and he represented the Federal Government.

YOUNG: Yes, that's his name. He was so big and tall, he say he was looking ugly and things. He say, "Would you please step aside?" He say, "Yes, sir."

HUNTLEY: So do you think that Wallace was just a show?

YOUNG: Just a show. Trying to bluff somebody and make somebody do like they was doing. But, he didn't fool around with that man. He didn't mess with that man. That man just told him to step aside. And that man went on to school and right through that door where he was going.

HUNTLEY: You have obviously had a wide a varied experience in the civil rights 00:44:00movement. At that time you were in your 60s, during the '63 demonstrations. Now, you're in your 90s, how does it feel to have lived through all of that and to see the changes that have taken place in Birmingham?

YOUNG: Oh, I feel good. And being the age that I am I just wonder how did I come through?

How did I get through. All that stuff I had to come through. What these people are going through now, I've been through it. I've come through what they're going through. I thank God I'm here. All I can say now is thank you, Jesus, thank you, Jesus. We used to have a woman at the Movement who used to say, "Thank God for Jesus." And, they had to come and get her and it took six men to take her out. She shout so much, until I spoke one day. I seen her outside I 00:45:00hadn't got to the church. She was on her way in and I was on my way in and I said, "Oh, God, there go that old shouting lady." What did I say that for. She said, "You better wish you were a shouting lady." I said, "Oh, I wasn't talking about you."

HUNTLEY: Was she older than you?

YOUNG: No. She wasn't older than me, she was younger than me. But she was old, just not as old as me. But she is something about the age of my daughter-in-law.

HUNTLEY: Were you older than most of the people that were there?

YOUNG: There were so many people that was that, but I was in the older ones.

HUNTLEY: Were there other people in your community that were involved in the Movement?

YOUNG: Everyone just about you could find, unless he was a drinker or he loved to run around and drink and didn't care nothing about nothing just drinking and having a time. They didn't pay the movement any attention.

HUNTLEY: So your church was involved?

YOUNG: The church was involved. All the deacons and members of the church was involved and they could have the meeting at their church at any time.

HUNTLEY: If I were to ask you about different individuals, you remember Rev. John Porter, what do you remember about him?

YOUNG: Rev. Porter was real nice and he really loved the Movement. But his church didn't want him involved. Shuttlesworth had gotten his church bombed up and will come over there and get their church bombed up. He didn't want them 00:47:00there, to stay away from our church. And Rev. Porter say, "Yeah, they coming all right."

HUNTLEY: So he would allow the Movement to come to 6th Avenue?

YOUNG: Yes. (Inaudible) the girls wouldn't got killed if they had their funeral there. But that stopped all of that talking about they weren't coming there, because Rev. Porter was all for it and was all with them at every meeting. He said, "My people don't even want me over here, but I'm over here."

HUNTLEY: What about the Woods Brothers?

YOUNG: The Woods Brothers were active in it, the daddy and the two brothers. Calvin Woods, Abraham Woods and I don't know the daddy's name, but all of them were preachers.

HUNTLEY: Who was the person that did a lot of the songs, do you remember 00:48:00Carleton Reese?

YOUNG: Yes. Carleton Reese was the piano man. He played the music for us and he would do all the singing and he would just sing whatever he want to sing. He could just make him up a song and sing it. Something about (Inaudible) Bull Conner and they would go right along with him.

HUNTLEY: In closing, did you enjoy the Movement or were you afraid?

YOUNG: I enjoyed it so much until I wouldn't be afraid. I would be afraid if those White folks come in with all those machines and lights and things in your face and taking pictures and all that kind of stuff. I didn't have sense enough to be scared of that, I was so enthused over Martin Luther King and what they were doing, until I didn't pay them any attention. But they were back there 00:49:00catching every word they said and everything.

Martin wouldn't pay them any attention. He tell them, "I want my freedom and I want it now."

HUNTLEY: And that became sort of a slogan for the Movement?

YOUNG: Yes. And, when we were getting on the end (Inaudible) Martin Luther King so much and kept up with him, try to keep up with him, try to get a chance to kill him a long time ago. And he said something or other about over the mountain where, "I might not get there with you, but I want y'all to keep on going. Just keep on going." He said, "Walk, if they won't let you walk, crawl." He said, "If 00:50:00you don't crawl, slide on in there, just so you keep going."

HUNTLEY: How did you feel when Martin Luther King was killed?

YOUNG: Well, I was standing there at the ironing board and my husband said, "That must have been your man, you carrying on so." I said, "Nothing about no man, I just love him so because he was teaching us so much." I said, "Oh, God, that couldn't be Martin Luther King. That's the main man. They killed the poor man." I had a fit. I couldn't iron any more. I threw those clothes away. I was just sick. I said, "Well, Jesus, what are we going to do now?" But I knew 00:51:00Shuttlesworth and Rev. Garner and all those guys were back there, we were going to keep on going, just like he said. So we did.

HUNTLEY: Well, I want to thank you for taking your time out and coming and sitting with us. Your experience has been one that has really been amazing. I appreciate it. We want to again say, "Welcome back home to Birmingham." Come back again. Thank you for coming.