Dr. Elizabeth Fitts Interviewed on July 19, 1995

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Dr. Elizabeth Hayes Fitts for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is July 19, 1995. Thank you, Dr. Fitts for driving all the way from Montgomery to be with us today.

FITTS: It's my pleasure.

HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking some general questions about background. Tell me just a bit about your parents. Where were your parents from?

FITTS: My mother is originally from just below Montgomery in a little place call 00:01:00Hope Hull. Just about everybody in that area knows the Dean family. There were eight children in that family, so everybody in that area basically knows my mother. My stepfather is from Ohio, I think. I don't know too much about all of his relatives. But they've been in the Birmingham area for about 47 years.

HUNTLEY: So did they meet in Birmingham?

FITTS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And how many brothers and sisters do you have?

FITTS: I have two brothers.

HUNTLEY: Two brothers?

FITTS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And you are the...

FITTS: I am the oldest.

HUNTLEY: The oldest. Well, I know you gave your brothers a hard time.

FITTS: They gave me the hard time.

HUNTLEY: Where did you start your schooling, the first grade?

FITTS: I did first grade at a school called Hooper City High.

HUNTLEY: Hooper City. Was Hooper City then K or 1 through 12?

FITTS: I think it was 1 through 12. I don't even know if it's still there because that's been a long time ago.

HUNTLEY: No. The school is not still there. The community is there.

FITTS: Right.

HUNTLEY: I remember we played Hooper City when I was in high school. And you went from Hooper City to what school?

FITTS: Center Street Elementary.

HUNTLEY: That's right here in the city. Hooper City was a county school.

FITTS: Right. Exactly.

HUNTLEY: Your family moved from Hooper City to Titusville?

FITTS: In Honeysuckle Circle.

HUNTLEY: You moved up in the world.

FITTS: A bit, yes.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about your community at that time, just growing up in Honeysuckle Circle?

FITTS: It was a much safer place to be than it is today. As children we could get out in the street. We used to have relay races in the afternoons. Everybody watched out for everybody else. And your neighbors were just like your parents 00:03:00also. If they caught you doing something wrong they didn't just tell your mother. Sometimes they could take the responsibility for spanking too. Or if they told your parents, sometimes you'd get two spankings. One from the neighbor and, then one at home.

HUNTLEY: It takes a whole village to raise a child.

FITTS: That's right. So it was a very good community. Many of the people in that area have died out. Some of them are still there and it's good to go by and wave at the older ones that you remember from your childhood.

HUNTLEY: What kind of occupations did your parents have?

FITTS: My mother started out doing domestic work. Then, in later years she became a monogrammer because she was a very good seamstress. She used to make all my clothing, all the drapes for the house. She worked at a shop, the Coca-Cola labels that you see, the people who work for the different franchises here in Birmingham, she would make all the labels for the uniforms. My stepfather worked for Ryder Trucking Company.

HUNTLEY: Did your mother work at home or did she work for Coca-Cola?

FITTS: It was similar to a laundry mat or something. They had the contract to do the labels for these different companies in the area.

HUNTLEY: What did your stepfather do for Ryder? Did he drive?

FITTS: No. He handled freight, the loading of the various trucks or whatever.

HUNTLEY: I see. How much education did they have?

FITTS: My mother, to be the smart woman that she is, never really finished high school. Being from the Hope Hull, Montgomery area, she lived on a farm and back in those days, in many instances, even if you were in school, very often you had to leave during harvesting season to assist with the planting or whatever. My stepfather did complete high school but that's about the extent of his education.

HUNTLEY: What about others in your community? Other occupations in the community that you lived in?

FITTS: Many of the women, if I remember, were domestic workers. Mrs. Hendricks, whom I'm sure you're familiar with, worked with the federal government until retirement, I think. There was Ms. Harris who was a school teacher. So you know there were various numbers of...

HUNTLEY: It's a variety of occupations in the community.

FITTS: Exactly.

HUNTLEY: I remember growing up on the western section of Birmingham and we thought that everyone that lived in the Honeysuckle Circle area, they were rich because you had those pretty brick homes. That was one of our aspirations, to be able to move to the Circle.

FITTS: Well, we do have to, you know, we owe our stepfather a lot for putting us in that area, so we are very grateful to him for that.

HUNTLEY: And you went on to what high school?

FITTS: I attended Ullman High School.

HUNTLEY: Ullman High School?

FITTS: Yes. George C. Bell.

HUNTLEY: What kind of memories do you have of your experiences at Ullman?

FITTS: I still see a few of my classmates occasionally. I've not had the opportunity to come back for class reunions or whatever. But, my fondest memory is of George C. Bell, the principal. And, I guess it's because I went to my senior year without missing a day because I loved going to school. If I was ill, mother would say "Bunny, stay home." That's what they called me, Bunny. I'd stay home and soon as she went to work then I would get up and go to school. And I was supposed to get that perfect attendance record at graduation and I remember him teasing me saying you've gone this far, now don't come to the last day and be absent. But it was also George C. Bell who entered me in various oratorical contests. And he would meet me in the hall and make me stand there and say my 00:07:00presentation whether it was the "Creation" or whatever it was I was doing for that contest. And it was George C. Bell who made me articulate and enunciate and win several oratorical contests.

HUNTLEY: So you have very fond memories then of George C. Bell and Ullman High School?

FITTS: Unlike a lot of other classmates of mine. Because he could be very dictatorial, tyrannical. He did not play at all. But very fond memories of him.

HUNTLEY: Ullman High being on the southside of town versus Parker High on the north side, do you remember any rivalry between the two schools?

FITTS: Football, yes. Football rivalry. I have a few friends who attended Parker High. Betty Gamble who is currently a captain on the police force here and her brother Ed Gamble who is in Oklahoma. I have cousins who also attended Parker. 00:08:00But yes, I remember the football rivalry. As a matter of fact, I think there were several fights that broke out at these football games because of that school rivalry.

HUNTLEY: That was probably the number one rival in the county was Parker and Ullman.

FITTS: Exactly.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after you finished high school?

FITTS: I came to Miles actually. I attended this university for one year. As a matter of fact, the current mayor taught biology here. He was my biology teacher here at Miles.

HUNTLEY: Was biology your major?

FITTS: No. Undergraduate I majored in English.

HUNTLEY: So what was the transition like from high school at Ullman to college here at Miles?

FITTS: It was a very easy transition for me because several of my classmates. Hazel Loretta Brown and Cleopatra Gibson, the three of us would commute everyday 00:09:00from the Birmingham area to Miles. And we made quite a few friends. Although I couldn't play an instrument, I was part of the band.

HUNTLEY: How were you part of the band without playing?

FITTS: I carried a trumpet. Boss is what we used to call the band director then. He said his band was a marching band and he took pride in the fact that we were good marchers. So I was on the tail end of the trumpet section, carrying a trumpet.

HUNTLEY: So, if we see that young woman on the tail end, she's in perfect step but she hadn't played a note.

FITTS: That's right.

HUNTLEY: You say you commuted. Did you drive?

FITTS: Yes. We drove. Well, Cleo drove. She was the only one with a car.

HUNTLEY: All right. I was wondering if all of you had cars at that time. So then you were here at Miles during the early, mid-60s, the demonstrations of '63 came 00:10:00along. How in fact did you get involved in the Movement?

FITTS: I remember Andrew Young and James Bevel and I think Hosea Williams came out to an assembly to speak to the students here at Miles. And, their ultimate aim was to get students involved in the Movement. They were having a mass meeting that night and we were being invited. And I can remember my fellow classmates sitting around being very, well I thought, very apathetic toward what they were saying. As a matter of fact, several of my classmates said to me that they were not going to get involved. That they felt that getting an education was more important. And, of course, I could not argue with that. I made the choice. Their apathy made me jump to the microphone and do my spiel concerning 00:11:00their apathy. Telling them why I thought we should participate in the Movement by attending these mass meetings and at least giving the people a chance to see what they have to say. But many of them told me that it was up to me. That I could go on and be a part of, but they were going to stay here and get their education. And for the most part, most of them did.

HUNTLEY: Were there others that did join you and became actively involved?

FITTS: I'm certain that there were because at the time I didn't know everybody here on the campus, but with the group that I ran around with, I was the only one.

HUNTLEY: The previous year, that was probably '62-63 school year?

FITTS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: So that year, then there was a Selective Buying Campaign that Miles College students took part in. Were you at all associated with that?

FITTS: Yes. I was.

HUNTLEY: Can you tell me a little about how all that evolved?

FITTS: Well, if I can remember, that's been a long time ago. Those stores or whatever that were not favorable toward our goals and doing whatever it was we were trying to do at the time, our idea was not to buy from those stores. Of course, we all have to live, we all needed things, so selective buying meant that you dealt with those people who were for the cause that we were.

HUNTLEY: And were there issues on campus that you had been involved in prior to Hosea Williams and Young and Bevill coming out? Were you active in student government. Anything other than the band at that particular time?

FITTS: No. Just the band. The interesting thing is in listening to those guys, I've always been a people person, and my husband teases me now when we watch football or baseball, it doesn't matter what team is playing, I'm always going to go for the underdog. And in my mind, as a race, we were the underdog. And if there were people out there trying to do something about it, then I wanted to be a part of it. Even though I was not involved in any, I was not a part of the NAACP. I was not a part of anything. But their message touched me.

HUNTLEY: Immediately?

FITTS: Immediately. And their suggestion was that we attend the mass meeting that night. And I can't remember but I think it was going to be held at Sixth Avenue Baptist Church or something like that. But they invited us to attend that mass meeting and learn more about the Movement so that we could become involved. And just listening to their Movement made me want to know more. And, from that 00:14:00first mass meeting on, whatever I could do to be a part of that Movement, I was there.

HUNTLEY: Were teachers of your supportive of your position of getting involved or do you remember?

FITTS: I can remember some or the teachers saying things that you do what you want to do as long as you keep up with your studies. To tell you the truth, I found it very difficult to do both. Because once I got involved, I was totally involved. As a matter of fact, I finished that semester and I joined the Movement completely.

HUNTLEY: Was that your first semester?

FITTS: My first year. I finished that year.

HUNTLEY: You finished the year and, then you joined the Movement?

FITTS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: While you were a student though, you did become active and you said that you attended mass meetings. Can you tell me what a typical mass meeting was like?

FITTS: I tried to remember some of the key players. I remember Wyatt Walker, I remember C.T. Vivian. Of course, James Bevill and Andrew Young, these guys would get up initially and we would sing the songs of the Movement, "We Shall Overcome", those kinds of things. Then, Dr. King was not at every mass meeting because he traveled quite a bit. But sometimes a mass meeting would be conducted by some local guys or it would be conducted by Andrew Young or Bevill or whomever. And they would just map out strategies, what it was we intended to do. I don't know if you remember there was a big day called "D" Day here in 00:16:00Birmingham where all the students turned out or whatever. But strategies were talked about during many of these mass meetings. Sometimes it was just a sermon, you know, talking about what was going on and a lot of singing and getting people involved more than anything else.

HUNTLEY: Were you able then to attract other friends to attend the meetings with you and were they impacted upon in the same manner that you?

FITTS: The friends that I had that were with me here at Miles, they never became a part of the Movement. Now, of course, I made a lot of friends as a result of being in the Movement, but the friends that I had, people that I called friends, were never part of the Movement. Now, I've had some friends to come up later and to pretend to have been a part of the Movement, but no, they didn't.

HUNTLEY: That's interesting. You're saying there were people who were not involved but 20 years later they were very much participants according to them.

FITTS: Exactly. Yes.

HUNTLEY: Obviously those times were some rather turbulent times. Do you remember the first time that you participated in a demonstration?

FITTS: Yes I remember the first time. It was a very frightening experience for me. I can remember the policemen, I can remember the paddy wagons.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the policemen?

FITTS: They were very intimidating. They had the billy clubs or night sticks or whatever they're called now. And they had no compassion. I think in the whole time I was a part of that Movement I only met one policeman that seemed to have had any kind of compassion.

HUNTLEY: How was he different? How do you mean?

FITTS: That was during the "D" Day demonstrations where one group would go to 00:18:00jail and they'd put them in jail and, then another group would start out. To the point where they didn't have places to put us. They had us all at the fair grounds and everywhere else. One policeman stopped me and asked me, "Well, when is this going to end?" I said, "Well, do we have our freedom yet?" He says, "Well, I notice that you guys seem to have all the determination in the world, and to tell you the truth, I'm tired." He said, "I've worn out two pair of shoes." He said, "I wish you could have your freedom just to stop this." And he was very sincere about it.

HUNTLEY: That's very interesting. Usually when I'm talking with people, they don't get the personal side of the police. It's usually a collected image.

FITTS: I see. I see. I can remember that one. The only one I remember. I don't remember his name, but I do remember that one because normally they wouldn't even stop to talk to you, but this one did.

HUNTLEY: What kind of impact did that have on you?

FITTS: Well it made me know that everybody didn't feel the way the "total" police force did and that means something. If you can convert one, or get one, maybe he can do some other converting.

HUNTLEY: Were you ever attacked, physically attacked or hit or beaten during the demonstrations?

FITTS: The only time I can remember is when, I think we were in Danville, Virginia. I was not the one being beaten. There was a young man with me and I can't remember his name now, but we had been taken to the police force and I guess the only reason I was not beaten is, maybe because I was female, I don't know. But we were trapped in the elevator and the policeman used his billy club to beat this young man while we were trapped in the elevator and, then, he simply put it back into the holder and walked away, like nothing had happened.

HUNTLEY: How many were on the elevator?

FITTS: It was just three of us. Just the three of us. This same young man and 00:20:00his name still escapes me right now. But that night, I think there were two or three policemen broke glass up and down the railroad track and made him take his shoes off and run on the broken glass.

HUNTLEY: Turbulent times.

FITTS: Yes. We were called rabble rousers. And in any city we went into we were bound to be harassed at any given time.

HUNTLEY: Looking at Birmingham, your arrest. You were arrested once in Birmingham?

FITTS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances of your arrest?

FITTS: That was the famous Sunday, I think it was around Easter. That was the time when Dr. King's letter from the Birmingham jail came out. There were so many of us. There were a lot of older women who also went to jail with us. It 00:21:00was not a pretty picture. We had cots, metal cots to sleep on. That bothered me. Like I say, I'm a people person.

HUNTLEY: Where were you housed?

FITTS: In the Birmingham jail. Dr. King and those were someplace else. Bernard Lee and all these guys were there. All these older women, like I was saying, were in jail with me. We had metal cots to sleep on. No mattress, just the metal cots. So our thing was, this is wrong. These people need better accommodations. There was one toilet sitting over in the corner so we had to shield each other whenever you had to use the restroom, we used our coats or whatever. But the sleeping conditions is what bothered me more than anything else. That these older women had to lie on metal cots. So what we did was, we used our coats, those of us who had our coats there, to pad the metal cots and we bugged the 00:22:00wardens and whoever else we could get their attention to bring Kotex. I mean, they didn't know the difference. What we needed them for. So we just padded the beds with all these Kotex napkins for these older women to sleep on.

HUNTLEY: How long did you remain there?

FITTS: We were there four days.

HUNTLEY: Four days.

FITTS: Four days.

HUNTLEY: And, what sticks out in your mind most are the cots?

FITTS: Exactly.

HUNTLEY: What about the personal treatment?

FITTS: The food was horrible. I do remember that. We had some brown looking grits that were very, very runny. What I now know are powdered eggs. Very, very hard biscuits and that was about the extent of it. Nobody ever came up to really check on us, we were just there, except when we would bang on the bars in order 00:23:00to get their attention to get those supplies that I was just telling you about. That was the only contact we really had.

HUNTLEY: What was the reaction of your parents about your involvement?

FITTS: My stepfather never said that much about it. My mother was horrified. Horrified is probably not the best word. She was afraid.

HUNTLEY: For your safety?

FITTS: Yes. Exactly. And she had cried and she said, "Well, Bunny, I know you got to do what you got to do, but don't expect me to sit up all night waiting on you."

HUNTLEY: And she probably did.

FITTS: And, that night when I got out of the jail, she was sitting there waiting on me. HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances of your being released?

FITTS: We all had to go to court and we were fingerprinted, our pictures were taken. So, if they still have those records, I guess I have a little record 00:24:00downtown. But, we all had to go to court. And, if I remember correctly, I can't remember that judge's name. But that day we were in court and that judge had a heart attack.

HUNTLEY: And died?

FITTS: He died. He certainly did.

HUNTLEY: And, then you guys were put back in jail, I believe?

FITTS: For a time.

HUNTLEY: I believe Mrs. Hendricks daughter...

FITTS: Faye.

HUNTLEY: ...told me about that as well. Did you know most of the people that were in jail with you at the time?

FITTS: I didn't know any of them.

HUNTLEY: Didn't know anyone?

FITTS: No. I didn't know any of them.

HUNTLEY: I've interviewed a number of people and one person in particular suggested to me that she went to jail and she wanted to go to jail, but once she got there she just said it was terrible and she had vowed that she would never 00:25:00go to jail again because of the experience that she had. How did it impact upon you? Did you have the idea that you never wanted to go back jail? You would not demonstrate again because of that possibility of going back?

FITTS: No. Interestingly enough, every demonstration they had, I was right there. It's just that that's the only time I was arrested. But I was willing to go back. Whatever it took. Whatever it took, I was willing to do that.

HUNTLEY: So, between April 1st and probably May 11th or May 12th there were demonstrations practically every day consistently.

FITTS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And you were involved in many of those?

FITTS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: But you were also very closely associated with Andrew Young and even Dr. King and others. Tell me about the relationships that developed as a result of your being so active.

FITTS: I guess I did become very close to the administrative staff because when I left Birmingham, I went to Atlanta where the national headquarters is and that's where I became very good friends with Dorothy Cotton, Dr. King, who could never remember my name, he always called me Liz Taylor, because he couldn't remember Hayes for some reason. I travelled a lot with Andrew Young and James Bevill going from one point to the other.

HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances of your travel?

FITTS: To do mass meetings. There were three other fellows that I used to work very closely with in the Movement. We all became friends and we were called SCLC's crackpot voter registration team. And sometimes these guys and I would travel together or I'd travel with Andrew Young and Jim Bevill to the various spots, wherever we were going to have mass meetings. Selma, we've gone as far as 00:27:00Texas. Now, I didn't go there with Andy and Bevill, I went there with the other three guys, the crackpot team as they called us. Just to do voter registration.

HUNTLEY: How did that process really begin? We know that you were involved here in Birmingham in '63. You were a freshman in college at the time. What was the link?

FITTS: Dr. King used to have what he called retreats. Some of them were held in Atlanta, various places. I can remember having one in Frogmore, South Carolina. But at these retreats, it was his effort to regroup, so to speak. Make sure that he kept his movement non-violent or whatever. He even required us to have reading materials. In other words, material that would motivate us to stay focused or whatever. And it was at one of the retreats that I decided to go full 00:28:00force and that's where I met C. T. Vivian and Wyatt Walker and all these other guys, Dorothy Cotton. I think that was when I really got to meet Dr. King, you know, to a point where I could talk to him and really get to know him better.

HUNTLEY: Were you actually on the staff?

FITTS: Yes. Our crackpot team was part of the staff.

HUNTLEY: You joined the staff and what did your parents say about that involvement? To leave Birmingham, to leave school and get involved in the Movement at that level.

FITTS: My mother did not want that. It was a struggle for her to even have me in school. As a matter of fact, somewhere down the line I'll probably tell you that it bothered me that she had to borrow money for me to go to school. So I decided 00:29:00that school is important but this was more important to me. And I had to sit down and express to her my feelings about what I was doing. And, the fact that I thought what we were doing could make a difference, not just for me, but for the entire Black race, which was my ultimate aim. I didn't know where this thing was going to go. I didn't know if some of us would be killed. But I knew in my heart that I had to stay with it for as long as I could. So, in the end, she gave in. She worried a lot. I had to constantly write. She expected a letter at least twice a week so that she would know that I was all right. She knew I didn't have the money to call. But I had to write at least twice a week so that she'd know that I was all right.

HUNTLEY: This was evidently a decision that was made between, well after or during your freshman year, which meant that you would not return to school for 00:30:00your sophomore year. What was your first campaign after leaving Birmingham and going and joining the SCLC staff?

FITTS: Well, that's when Andrew Young and Bevill and Dr. King and those got together and they bought us a white van. And, in that white van it was Andrew Marsett, James Orange and a young man that we called sexy, I can't remember his name now. But we called him sexy. The four of us, I think our first project was in Orange, Texas. I think there's a place called Orange, Texas. Some part of Texas. Our contact person there was Barbara Jordan, the attorney, a very powerful woman. She smoked a tiny little pipe. I was intimidated by her initially. But she was our contact person. She put us in touch with other members in the community who would give us housing and a place to stay and we 00:31:00did voter registration in Texas. That was our first project.

HUNTLEY: Was she actively involved in that or was she simply a contact person? I guess she would not have been in the legislature at that early time.

FITTS: No. She was just a lawyer in that town at the time. She was just our contact person. She was not actively involved in anything else that we were doing, but she put us in contact with those people who would assist us in whatever we needed.

HUNTLEY: And she did make an impression upon you?

FITTS: Oh, yes. A powerful woman.

HUNTLEY: You mentioned Danville, Virginia. Tell me about that experience because that seemed to have been, well Danville, of course, is very well noted for it's, the educational process of defiance of education in the 50s. Were you there for voter registration?

FITTS: Yes. But you know the interesting thing is, I didn't find it as difficult in Danville as I did in Texas. Reason being in Texas we had to demonstrate, you know, rally the people together and, demonstrate against some of our own people. Some of our own people who owned businesses in Texas, like bar-b-que places or whatever, who catered to the White population.

HUNTLEY: What do you mean "catered to them?"

FITTS: Most of their service was geared toward the White population. Their feeling was these are the people with the money and that's what we're in business for, to make money and for the most part, they did not serve Black people. They did not serve Black people in their establishments. So these are some of the people that we had to picket in Texas, even though we were just there for voter registration. When we found these things going on, then, of course, we rallied some people together and we picketed our own people in order 00:33:00that, you know, that they understood where we were coming from. These are your brothers, you need to deal with them first.

HUNTLEY: You had experience in selective buying in Birmingham?

FITTS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Did that experience work for you in Texas in the same way that it did here?

FITTS: Yes. We knew exactly what to do. We got together that night. We got our poster boards. We made up our signs and by the time we finished, they were willing to serve anybody and everybody. Because people generally were not going to cross those picket lines.

HUNTLEY: So you really then desegregated eating facilities in Texas in '63?

FITTS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And many of these were Black owned businesses that catered to Whites?

FITTS: Exactly. Danville, Virginia was not that bad. As a matter of fact, I can't remember any serious problems in Danville, Virginia. We were able to 00:34:00register our people. I guess the only bad memory that I have of Danville, Virginia. I had gone back to Danville, Virginia when we got the news that Dr. King had been murdered. So that's the only bad experience or bad memory I have of Danville, Virginia. I have worse memories of a place called Plaqumine Parish, Louisiana. I don't know if you've heard about that place but that place was horrible.

HUNTLEY: I know of the place. Tell me about the experience?

FITTS: At that time, it was still in the 60s. We had Blacks living on plantations there. One plantation in particular, this White guy owned the plantation. He had Blacks living in little huts like, with dirt flooring and they used the broom to sweep the inside of the house and the outside and they would cook outside in the big black pots that you probably remember, you know, 00:35:00doing the washing or whatever. They washed and cooked in the same pot. Well, Dr. King had to figure out a way to get these people off that plantation. And, if I can remember correctly, what they did was, they hired a helicopter and dropped handbills over onto that plantation and I can remember hearing them say that there was one old Black man on that plantation who could read. There were younger people there, but one old Black man who could read, who read that handbill and mobilized the people on that plantation and brought them out to a mass meeting.

HUNTLEY: This sounds like a concentration camp?

FITTS: That's exactly what it was like. Exactly.

HUNTLEY: And what were the meetings like when those people came?

FITTS: We had some bad experiences there also. The meetings were held in a local Baptist Church. This was a time when the police force taped up their badges and 00:36:00rode horses into the church in order to break up the mass meetings. The badges, of course, were taped so that we could not identify who had done what. As a matter of fact, there was a little 13 year old girl killed at one of those mass meetings because a policeman, on the horse, forced her into a dead end situation and the horse reared up and caved her chest in.

HUNTLEY: Now, this is all in 1963?

FITTS: '63-64 time frame.

HUNTLEY: You've mentioned a number of places. And I wanted to ask you a question about Danville. You talked about being on the elevator and the policeman beating the young man. What were the circumstances of your being on the elevator with that policeman?

FITTS: He had been stopped on a bogus traffic situation and taken in. You know, 00:37:00like I say we were considered rabble rousers. I was in the car with him.

HUNTLEY: But you were in the police department on the elevator and the elevator stopped.

FITTS: Well, he was bringing us back down after they had done whatever, you know, that they had to do with him and they were bringing us back down. And in bringing us back down, he stopped the elevator.

HUNTLEY: I see. Are there other occasions that sort of stand out in your mind in terms of your organizing voter registration or whatever else may have been happening with SCLC?

FITTS: I guess I probably hit on the most prevalent that tend to stand out. I guess the thing that really got away with me most was what happened to my friend in Danville, Virginia. Some of the things that we encountered in Plaqumine 00:38:00Parish. Leander Perez I think was the name of the state trooper. We used to call him the head head thumper or something like that. His guys showed no mercy to anybody. But Plaqumine Parish, Louisiana. Of course, the Selma march, that kind of stands out in my mind, but I was a student again, then.

HUNTLEY: You remained on the staff of SCLC for a year and then you went back to school?

FITTS: Well, let's see. I went back to school in 1964.

HUNTLEY: In the fall of '64?

FITTS: Yes. I started at Tuskegee Institute.

HUNTLEY: How was that transition from being in the field with SCLC back to the classroom?

FITTS: It was kind of hard initially. To get acclimated to having to study all the time. And I felt so much older than many of my classmates. I supposed 00:39:00because of the experiences I had had. But at the same time I realized that I did want an education and, then, it got better because we organized a group on campus that we called TIAL. The Tuskegee Institute Advancement League. And we were a civil rights organization then, also. And, I think several, Stokely Carmichael came to speak with us. Jim Farmer came to speak with us. A very good friend of mind, Sammy Young was killed in Tuskegee as a result of some of our actions. As a matter of fact we later found out that some of the White people in Tuskegee had a hit list out. Sammy Young was the first on the list, then Wendell Paris, then Liz Fitts, then Betty Gamble and a whole list of us that they intended to take out. Sammy was just the first. A very smart young man who had 00:40:00become a little bit too outspoken for the White populace in the area.

HUNTLEY: Malcolm X came to Tuskegee just before he was assassinated in February of '65. Do you remember that?

FITTS: I don't remember his being there. I remember Stokely. I remember Farmer. I remember Forman. Because whenever these guys came to town, because of the little organization that we had, we were always there with them.

HUNTLEY: Now, Sammy was also a member of SNCC right?

FITTS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever get involved with SNCC?

FITTS: No. Just whenever they would come to town. We were all in the same struggle, but to join the organization, no. I was just a member of SCLC.

HUNTLEY: So you then participated in the Selma march?

FITTS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about that.

FITTS: It was long. It was tiring. It rained. It was very frightening again because here again the state troopers and all these people showed no mercy. I was not apart, you know, closer to the front. I was not a part of the people who really got the worst end of the situation. But, you know, you have to sympathize and empathize with what's going on behind you because you've seen these kinds of things take place before so you know what's going to happen.

HUNTLEY: You were there on Bloody Sunday?

FITTS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And you were up front?

FITTS: Yes. But I didn't get the beatings for some reason like the rest of them did. I escaped that. I think the only really bad thing that ever happened to me was when they had the dogs and the water hoses here in Birmingham. I got hit with a fire hose a couple of times, but no dog ever bit me. But I was a part of 00:42:00that. But the serious beatings and things of that nature, no I never had to deal with that.

HUNTLEY: With your participating in the Selma march, were there a large group of students from Tuskegee that participated?

FITTS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: That you all had organized?

FITTS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: How did that organization process take place on Tuskegee's campus?

FITTS: At that time, Tuskegee students were very interested in things of that nature. When Sammy was killed it was very easy to mobilize the students around that cause, because everybody knew Sammy. Everybody loved Sammy. So it was very easy to mobilize students around that cause. For the Selma march, It was also again very easy to mobilize them around that march. We were able to get the auditorium. We were able to sell the students on what we wanted to do. As a 00:43:00matter of fact we were even able to get buses in order to transport students. Dr. Foster was not necessarily in favor of. As a matter of fact, I can remember him calling us in as a group, those of us who were members of TIAL. Back in those days girls were not allowed to wear pants on campus. We were not allowed to ride in cars. You know, they had all these restrictions. So we broke a lot of things up at Tuskegee to the point where girls can now wear pants. Girls can ride in cars. Because we'd go in his office with our shoulder bags slung on our shoulders, wearing our jeans and our big T-shirts or whatever and we would sit on top of desks in order not to conform to what he wanted us to do.

HUNTLEY: Which was not ladylike.

FITTS: Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, although he was not necessarily in favor of a lot of things that we were doing, he went along with in many instances. He didn't stop us. I can remember one demonstration we had, we got a telegram from 00:44:00A. G. Gaston, we were demonstrating. I think that was after the death of Sammy. We were all out in the streets demonstrating and A. G. Gaston sent us a telegram saying that we needed to be not in the streets but back in our classrooms. Of course, that didn't stop us either.

HUNTLEY: There was a demonstration at Tuskegee where students actually took over a building and I believe the trustees were on the campus at the time?

FITTS: Yes. In Dorothy Hall.

HUNTLEY: Were you a part of that?

FITTS: Yes. Every demonstration they had at Tuskegee I was there. I was a part of it. Even when we sat in the streets. They had the policeman to stop us midway between the campus and the downtown area, we were headed to town. And we simply sat in the street until they would allow us to pass. That's the time we got the telegram from A. G. Gaston. But yeah, every demonstration they had, I was a part 00:45:00of it. Especially if it had to do with our rights as a people.

HUNTLEY: So by 1968 they were glad to see you departing?

FITTS: Not really. I had mellowed out a lot. I had mellowed out a lot. I made a lot of good friends down there, Mr. Woodson, people I still hear from. My youngest son attends Tuskegee so I still get to see a lot of these people. Charles Chanier, people who were there when I was there.

HUNTLEY: How do you think your activism impacted upon your life since then?

FITTS: I really think it's made me a better person. I still consider myself a caring person. I have a lot of friends who teach with me at Alabama State University who knew me when we were at Tuskegee. And it upsets them because I am not the radical kind of person that I was then. But, to me things are different. 00:46:00You have to handle things differently now. Where we could get a picket sign and go out and march, it's not always expedient to do that in today's situations. To me, you have to handle things a little bit more diplomatically, but you can still get the same kind of effect. But do it differently. And, this one individual expected me to be the same kind of individual...

HUNTLEY: ...encourage them to be involved in the demonstrations in the same manner that you were?

FITTS: I don't think I'd encouraged them. I've always tried to allow them to make their own decisions. I do the same thing with my students now. In many 00:47:00instances, when there were marches or whatever taking place, because some of them know of my involvement in the Movement, they'll come and ask me if they should participate. I don't think that's my call. I think that it's their decision to make. Then, if they need information or whatever, I can give them that, but to push them out there, no, I don't think I'd ever do that.

HUNTLEY: Where do you see the Movement today. And, how can we learn from what happened during the 60s to move the Movement forward? Where are we?

FITTS: It's interesting that you would ask that. And I'm going to say something that a lot of people have looked at me very strangely for. Being an educator, I feel that in many instances, integration has hurt us. And the reason I say that 00:48:00is because, in my day, when I was in school, we may not have had anything but a test tube and a frog and a lab, but those teachers taught us. But many of the students that I'm seeing now have come from integrated situations, our elementary and high school situations. These kids have so many deficiencies. And my feeling is, it's because we have so many teachers in this integrated situation who don't care. They just don't care. Our teachers made sure we took the math, we took the science. These courses that were going to assist us when we got to college. College preparatory kinds of courses. But nowadays, students can take basket weaving if they want to. Nobody cares. They have different kinds of diplomas you can get. And, you know, when I was at Ullman High School you got a diploma and that was it. But, now you have a diploma if you intend to go to college. You have a diploma if you don't intend to go to college. You have a 00:49:00diploma if you're in special ed classes. You see what I'm saying. And, to me, that hinders our students. I teach developmental courses on the college level, now. These are kids who have deficiencies in math, English and the sciences because nobody cared back here. It's not that these students can't do it, because if they run into a good teacher in the developmental program who spends the time to show them or assist them in getting what they missed back here, many of these students have gone on to graduate. So in that instance, I think, to a large extent, integration has hurt us. But by the same token, I wouldn't change anything that I went through to get to this point. Now, I've had my knocks and bumps, too. I got a Master's Degree at the University of Montevallo and in many instances I was the only little speck in the class. I got a doctorate degree at 00:50:00the University of Alabama, same thing. And it was interesting how, in many instances they would forget that I was the only one there and little things would come out, you know. And little prejudices would be shown.

HUNTLEY: Why do you think then it appears then that you're saying that rather than actually

improving our status, we have, in many ways, digressed?

FITTS: I believe we have.

HUNTLEY: Where do you think the Movement failed? Where did we fail?

FITTS: I don't think we failed. It's just that I don't think we have anybody to continue on. We didn't get all the way there. Do you see what I'm saying.FITTS: I don't think we have any leaders like we had then. And, I really cannot see where this next leader is going to come from.

HUNTLEY: Some of those same people that we talked about are still on the scene.

FITTS: But they are not doing. It's almost like, now I know Jesse Jackson. Jesse Jackson is a fine individual. I remember meeting him at one of our retreats in 00:51:00Frogmore, South Carolina. That's when Dr. King turned the Operation Bread Basket over to him. But, there are too many people who are doing self-serving kinds of things to me.

HUNTLEY: For instance, what do you mean, self-serving kind of instances.

FITTS: Putting themselves in the political arena. It's not about the race as a whole anymore. Dr. King put his life on the line for us as a people. Yes, he got a Nobel Peace Prize and he did a lot of other things. But his main focus to me was always, you know I don't care about all these negative things you've heard about Dr. King, I never saw any of those things and I mean even at the A. G. Gaston Hotel, to see him take a drink. I never saw him take a drink. I've seen some others take a drink here and there. But, Dr. King would sip on his ice or whatever else. Dr. King, and I was with them for a couple of years, was always 00:52:00on the straight and narrow as far as I'm concerned or as far as what I could see. But, he was always for the people. And to me, a lot of our so-called leaders now, are not. It's almost like where I can go or how far I can go to get where I want to be. But it's not about the masses of the people.

HUNTLEY: Do you think it's necessary to have another Dr. King to come on the scene?

FITTS: I think we're going to have to. Because listen. Like I say, I teach on the college level.

HUNTLEY: You have a doctorate degree in what area?

FITTS: Well, my Master's is in speech pathology. I have a doctorate in special education with a concentration in speech pathology and administration.

HUNTLEY: And you are an associate professor at Alabama State University?

FITTS: And I also teach at Troy State University of Montgomery. But, I teach a group of students who barely know who Dr. King was. If you ask them what SCLC 00:53:00is, they don't know.

HUNTLEY: Why not? Why don't they know?

FITTS: My favorite saying is, he who does not know his history is doomed to repeat it. And these students have not been exposed. I mean, they have history but it's not our history, you see. They have American history. They talk about all of this other stuff. I'm in the process now of trying to get an African American lit. class right there on campus because these students need to know.

HUNTLEY: Are you having difficulty in doing that?

FITTS: Well, to a certain extent, yes I am. Because the curriculum is set and nobody wants change, you see. But, even though I teach speech, I don't just teach speech. I teach speech, I teach English, I teach history. I am trying to get our students to a point where they can articulate better. Even when I go and 00:54:00do workshops at White schools or Black schools, I talk mainly to our Black students. Now, you know there are some White students who need help. If you need it, you take what you can from where you can, but I'm directing what I'm saying to the Black population.

HUNTLEY: We have covered an awful lot of territory today and you have been very gracious in sharing your experiences with us. Is there anything else that we may not have touched base on that you would like to include in this tape?

FITTS: I can't really think of anything else. Except I guess I wish our colleges and our churches, I just think that there is so much more we could be doing as it relates to educating today's population about what went on then and things that they can do now. Because I can envision, to me, if we're not careful, we're 00:55:00going back. You know what's happening with affirmative action. And if we are not careful and we don't get out there and do something and make some waves, I can see us digressing and I think we need to start with our children and educate them to a point where they can assist us in fighting for it. Because actually, our fight is more for them now. You see, I'm 52 years old and I want it to be better for those coming up behind me.

HUNTLEY: Dr. Fitts. I want to thank you very much for coming and sitting with us today and taking your time. You have been very gracious as I have suggested and we certainly appreciate the time that you've taken.

FITTS: I've enjoyed it.