Doris B. Thompkins Interviewed on April 7, 1995

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Mrs. Doris B. Thompkins for the Birmingham 00:01:00Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. This is April 7, 1995 and I would like to thank you Mrs. Thompkins for coming out -- taking time out of your busy schedule to sit with us this morning to talk about Birmingham and the Movement. Welcome.

I would like to just start by asking some background questions. Where were your parents from?

THOMPKINS: Marengo and Jefferson County -- they're from Marengo and Jefferson County.

HUNTLEY: Your mother is from --

THOMPKINS: My mother is from Jefferson County.

HUNTLEY: And your father is from Marengo County?

THOMPKINS: Marengo County.

HUNTLEY: Well, were you born here in Jefferson County?

THOMPKINS: Yes, I was.

HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have?

THOMPKINS: I have five sisters and one brother.

HUNTLEY: And you are -- how are you in terms of number? Where were you listed?

THOMPKINS: I am the second oldest child.

HUNTLEY: Second oldest child. Tell me just a bit about your parents -- the time they spent in school and the occupations that they had.

THOMPKINS: Well, at their time going to school, as it was in many cases, they didn't get as far at school as they would have like to have done due to circumstantial evidences where they maybe had to come out and work and different things of that nature where it has been true in many Afro-American families.

HUNTLEY: Sure. Yes. I remember my grandmother. She couldn't read nor write, but she's the smartest person I've ever known. But, she was basically sort of my mentor, so we raise the question about education and there are a lot of ways that you can be educated. What about your parents' occupations? Did your mother work outside of the home?

THOMPKINS: She did. She worked outside of the home and they both were what we called, at that time, common laborers.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember what companies they worked for?

THOMPKINS: No. I know my father did construction work. That was, various different companies. My mother was doing what we now call a housekeeper. At that time they called it maid work or domestic work. And so that was for different people. I couldn't remember just how many different places. But she stayed 00:04:00pretty well in one job a long period of time.

HUNTLEY: And in addition to raising a number of children as well, she had two jobs.

THOMPKINS: She had two jobs. Full-time homemaker and then she worked outside the house.

HUNTLEY: Right. Tell me about your education. Where did you start elementary school?

THOMPKINS: I started and finished elementary school at the then Cameron Elementary School. Dr. Noah E. Wills was the principal and Mrs. Lucille Boyd and Mrs. Christianita D. Carnes were my favorite teachers.

HUNTLEY: And you went from first through eighth grade?

THOMPKINS: First through eighth grade at Cameron.

HUNTLEY: Then where did you go from there?

THOMPKINS: Then I left Cameron and I went to Ullman High School. The late Mr. George C. Bell was the principal.

HUNTLEY: Did you finish? Did you graduate from Ullman?

THOMPKINS: Ullman was then a junior high school. I did finish and I went to Parker.

HUNTLEY: And that is where you finished high school?

THOMPKINS: Yes. I went to Ullman 9th and 10th grade and 11th and 12th grades at Parker.

HUNTLEY: I see. What did you do after high school?

THOMPKINS: After high school I went to the Birmingham Baptist College. It is now known as the Birmingham Easonian Baptist Bible College and I stayed there about four years. I finished there and I went back -- I was in and out of school all of my life.

HUNTLEY: Were you preparing for the ministry there?

THOMPKINS: No. I was preparing for missionary work and Christian education.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after you finished at the bible school?

THOMPKINS: After I finished the bible school I went to Nannie Helen Burroughs 00:06:00School in Washington, D.C. I went then to Daniel Payne College and back to the bible college twice.

HUNTLEY: How did you happen to decide upon going to D.C. and to Miss Burroughs' school?

THOMPKINS: I have a god-mother, Mrs. Emolyn Reese who was very instrumental. She was my mentor in Christian education and she was very instrumental in me going to Nannie Helen Burroughs' school. The late Mrs. Corinne Watts was the youth director at that time and I was always active in the church work and very civic in other organizations. So, at her suggestion and her assistance, I enrolled in the Nannie Helen Burroughs School with a scholarship.

HUNTLEY: Did you meet or know Mrs. Burroughs? Did you get to work with her?

THOMPKINS: The late Nannie Helen Burroughs?

HUNTLEY: Yes.

THOMPKINS: Yes. I met and work for and with Mrs. Burroughs. Mrs. Burroughs, and I count it a blessing to have known her. She was an inspiration to all those who knew and worked with her and for her.

HUNTLEY: Obviously she is very, very well known as an educator throughout the country and she obviously has been an inspiration to you. What was next after D.C. and the Burroughs' school?

THOMPKINS: After D.C. I came back and I finished Daniel Payne. I went to charm and modeling school while I was working. I taught school five days a week. At charm school on Saturday and model with my students when and wherever they worked.

HUNTLEY: What school did you teach at in the Birmingham system?

THOMPKINS: I would be on the safe side if I said I worked for the Birmingham Board of Education because we were moved about as they saw fit to move us. During the civil rights institution, if you were identified any with, you were lucky to have been working anywhere.

HUNTLEY: Well, did you teach elementary school or high school?

THOMPKINS: I taught elementary school.

HUNTLEY: What community did you live in?

THOMPKINS: I lived on the Southside of Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: Was that where you were born and reared -- on the Southside?

THOMPKINS: I was born and reared on the Southside of Birmingham in various communities.

HUNTLEY: How would you describe your community that you lived in?

THOMPKINS: The community that I remember mostly in my growing up had an outside toilet, the whole neighborhood used one toilet and the whole neighborhood kept the toilet clean. We had outside water -- there was no hot and cold water. We had a No. 2 and No. 3 bathing tin tubs. There was no such thing as a bathtub. You used one of those wash tubs as your bathtub. There was no such thing as Ivory soap and all this nice soap we know now. We took a bath with Octagon soap. You did primarily everything with Octagon soap.

HUNTLEY: What's Octagon soap?

THOMPKINS: Octagon soap.

HUNTLEY: Yes. What kind of soap is that?

THOMPKINS: It's a -- was a long bar of soap about twice the size of two bars of 00:10:00Ivory now. It's a yellow type of soap. We washed our clothes in Ivory soap because there were no washing machines. You heated your water on the stove after you made a fire in the stove with the kindling and paper and coal that we had to go outside and get because there were no boys in my family -- the last one was a boy. Therefore, the girls had to get in coal.

What we used for -- to get the coal in was a called scuttle. It is something like a little foot tub. We had to get in so many scuttles of coal. We had to cut wood and we got up the next morning -- there was no gas to turn on. You had to make the wood, make the fire, strike a match and after the fire was made, you had to give the time for the stove to get hot, then you heated your water and 00:11:00took your bath. Then, you had to also have to have a fire made in the stove while your water was getting hot here, the stove had to get hot so the oven could be ready for you to make your bread and whatever you were going to cook for that day.

HUNTLEY: What about the various occupations of individuals that lived in your community. What kind of occupations did they have?

THOMPKINS: Mostly people in our -- in my community were housekeepers or maids as they were called then. Some of them worked at schools. They were custodians at school. They were called maids at that time. We didn't have upgraded titles as we know them now. You were a maid. There were certain jobs that were designated for a Black. If you were a Black, you knew you were not going to answer a telephone. That was a no-no. You knew you were not going to drive a bus. That 00:12:00was a no-no. Yet, we had many people capable of doing these things, but because we were fighting desegregation and his eagles, we were not allowed to do these particular things. So, you had certain jobs that you knew that were for Afro-Americans or Blacks.

THOMPKINS: You washed dishes in the cafeteria. You did maid work all over buildings and homes. You made the labor work or construction work. You never were a supervisor. That was a no-no. We all did what we would consider now underdog work.

HUNTLEY: What about recreation in your community?

THOMPKINS: Well, recreation in the community was very limited. We made our toys. We made our dolls out of Coca-Cola bottles with some ice strings because we had 00:13:00no refrigerators. You had ice that you put a burlap sack around to keep your meats and things cold. So we would take the ice strings after the ice was placed in the proper place and put the strings in the Coca-Cola bottle and these were our dolls.

THOMPKINS: We played baseball, volleyball and the other recreation games that I particularly liked in our community. I took part in the games at school. We had a lot of games at school. The late Mrs. Boyd taught us Physical Ed when there was not a required course in Physical Ed. She just was gifted and dedicated enough to know that we needed this so she saw to us having these games to permit us to develop in such a manner as we should using physical education activities.

HUNTLEY: As a grown-up in your communities, what kind of organizations do you remember were organized in the communities?

THOMPKINS: As a grown-up, you mean the communities that I lived in?

HUNTLEY: That you lived in, yes. As an adult?

THOMPKINS: There was no such organization as we know it now. We had then what they called Neighborhood Watch. We wasn't organized as such but we just watched out for each other. You left your doors open and went on to the store or wherever you had to go. The other neighbors just watched out for you. But, there were no organized groups as we know them now.

HUNTLEY: What was your community's relationship to the Birmingham Police Department?

THOMPKINS: At that time, the Birmingham Police Department from individual policemen had very good rapport with the community. But most of them, at that 00:15:00time, there was very little communication that they wanted certain things done they would have to send Officer X or Officer Y or else the community wouldn't talk to anybody else. They didn't have the confidence in the rest of them.

HUNTLEY: So did the community look at the police department as being there to protect and serve the community?

THOMPKINS: Not necessarily so. In some instances, as I said it depended on the officer. But as a whole, they sort of looked to them to protect them. But, not as they do now or not as we thought they should have done. Because they were not as close. The policeman was looked upon as a -- if somebody coming through here -- oh, oh, here come the policeman-- you just knew to get out the way. Because the way they do -- they would come in the manner, you know, frightening so the 00:16:00people were afraid. But once they met one or two and learned and talk with those one or two, then they would relate to those.

HUNTLEY: I know that you were actively involved with the Civil Rights Movement.

THOMPKINS: Excuse me?

HUNTLEY: You were actively involved with the Civil Rights Movement.

THOMPKINS: Very much so.

HUNTLEY: Were you a member of the NAACP prior to it being outlawed from operating in the State of Alabama?

THOMPKINS: Yes, I was.

HUNTLEY: What kind of activities were you involved with the NAACP?

THOMPKINS: Membership campaign and whatever the headquarters in New York would designate for me to do in that area.

HUNTLEY: Were you ever involved in voter registration drives?

THOMPKINS: I was.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember when you went to apply to become a registered voter?

THOMPKINS: When I went to apply to be a registered voter things had simmered down a little bit then. I didn't have any problems.

HUNTLEY: No problems at that time.

THOMPKINS: No problems.

HUNTLEY: The NAACP was outlawed from operating in the State of Alabama in 1956. That basically left a void. But something happened at that point that would fill that void. Can you tell me about the development of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights.THOMPKINS: After the NAACP was no longer operating in the State of Alabama, as outlawed by the then governor, John Patterson, Dr. Fred Shuttles worth became very upset over this. He, along with other persons whom he talked with, became very seriously -- Shuttles worth became very seriously upset 00:18:00about this. So he said at that point, we need to do something. Something has to be done. We have nobody to speak for us. We are not strong enough to speak individually, so something needs to be done. At that time he called the group of people together at the then Sardis Baptist Church on Enon Ridge and organized the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. He said he was naming it the Human Rights so this would include everybody because he realized we were not the only ones who had been oppressed.

HUNTLEY: You were relatively a young person at the time -- in your early twenties. What role did you play in the initial organization of the Alabama Christian Movement?

THOMPKINS: I attended the mass meetings. I marched and I went to jail.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about the first time that you went to jail.

THOMPKINS: The first time I went to jail we were in the process of desegregating public riding facilities, or public transportation rather. I was sitting on the bus reading my Daily Word, minding my very own business and I had to go to Ensley. I boarded the bus on Second Avenue and 19th Street downtown. Instead of taking us to where I had originally decided to go, the bus driver carried myself and all those who were on the bus straight to the transit company car bond. There we were met by the paddy wagons and hauled off to jail.

HUNTLEY: Were all of those people that were on the bus, were they all demonstrating?

THOMPKINS: The whole bus went to jail.

HUNTLEY: But were all of those organized to demonstrate that day on the bus?

THOMPKINS: Yes, apparently they were because nobody resented being gone wherever the bus went. Nobody got off or asked to be let off before that time.

HUNTLEY: How long did you stay in jail?

THOMPKINS: I stayed in jail five days without visitation.

HUNTLEY: Five days without visitation.

THOMPKINS: Not even the church could send us anything that we needed. The only way we got help there was one of the young ladies with us, Miss Annie Berkley was with us at that time. She made friends with one of the trustees and when we needed something, he would get word to our church how we were doing. Otherwise that's the only way they would know that we were all right.

HUNTLEY: Can you tell me -- we know that you were one of those initial individuals that started the Alabama Christian Movement. You were among the group. A young person. Were you at the initial meeting of the Alabama Christian Movement?

THOMPKINS: Yes, I was.

HUNTLEY: Then you probably attended many, many mass meetings?

THOMPKINS: Yes, I did.

HUNTLEY: Can you then describe to me what a typical mass meeting was like?

THOMPKINS: In our mass meetings, we discussed many things that we were planning to do. But we had learned that everything we discussed in some of the meetings were getting back to the wrong people. So, consequently, there were some things at meetings that were not discussed publicly. They were only known by our 00:22:00authoritative people, Rev. Shuttles worth, Dr. Smith and Mr. Robey and all the secretaries at that time. Those people knew and they would not publicly tell us what they were going to do. If they wanted you to do something, they would get you otherwise to keep it from getting out what we were going to do-- word got blocked because it got to the wrong people at the wrong time.

HUNTLEY: Who were the wrong people?

THOMPKINS: The oppressors.

HUNTLEY: It's my understanding that there were police officers that were present at the meetings.

THOMPKINS: There were, many times.

HUNTLEY: Is that the way that the word would get back to the wrong people?

THOMPKINS: Seemingly some of it would get back that way. But then, some of it got through by some of those attending the meetings because the police officer 00:23:00was not a housekeeper, he was not a maid. Yet, when some of the maids got to work the next day, many of them were fired because they learned they had been to a meeting. Just fired on the spot because they knew they had been to a mass meeting.

HUNTLEY: So it was rather difficult for those who were working then, for White people to attend the meetings because they were subject to being dismissed?

THOMPKINS: It was just as hard for all the Whites as it was for the Blacks. It was even harder for the well thinking White people who wanted things to be resolved. Many of them we found wanted things to be resolved but they were afraid because they were being harassed as much as we were.

HUNTLEY: Were there Whites attending the mass meetings?

THOMPKINS: Very few but some were. Some just came out the closet and just came on to the meetings and like we see them doing now -- ignore them and just came on. As Mrs. Liuzzo, the lady that was killed.

HUNTLEY: That's Viola

THOMPKINS: Viola, right. Some of them just came on out anyway and risk their lives as well as we did ours because they said it had to be done. We realized that somebody had to start, so we didn't mind it.

HUNTLEY: You described now the first time that you went to jail. How many times were you arrested?

THOMPKINS: I was arrested two times.

HUNTLEY: What was the circumstances of the second time that you were arrested?

THOMPKINS: The second time I was in a department store downtown.

HUNTLEY: Which department store?

THOMPKINS: J. J. Newberry's. A young man came in to buy some records and I was browsing around for earrings and things the ladies like, but I had to pass by him to get what I needed. He was getting ready to go out the door and I heard 00:25:00him ask for the record and I said to him "have you tried Shelley the Playboy's Record Mart? You might find the record there." Immediately I was hauled off into one room with no doors out, just the one room.

HUNTLEY: Who took you to that room?

THOMPKINS: The store security who was dressed in plain clothes.

HUNTLEY: And what was the purpose, why did he take you to that room?

THOMPKINS: He took me because she said I was telling the young man to go to Shelley "The Playboy's" Record Mart and buy his record -- don't buy his records there. Any little thing that you said they took it out of context and took it the way they want it to be and made it to be what they want it to do and arrest you.

HUNTLEY: So what happened in the room?

THOMPKINS: What happened in the room? They made me sign an affidavit that I would never be seen in that store anymore under any circumstances for any purpose. If so, I would immediately be arrested and may not be allowed bond.

HUNTLEY: So you were then not arrested, you were detained in the room. Were you taken on to jail?

THOMPKINS: No. I was not taken on to jail, but I consider that as an arrest because she made me sign things that I did not want to sign and there was only one way out of the room and she had to let me out and that was the only way I was going to get out. I did ask to go to the restroom while I was in there and she would not even let me out to use the restroom. So, this doesn't sound very pretty, but she didn't let me use the restroom so she had a waste basket there so I made a restroom out of it right in front of her -- because I really had to go.

HUNTLEY: She was the only person --

THOMPKINS: It was all ladies in there but they could have followed me, if necessary, you know to go to the restrooms and let me go and discharge properly but they wouldn't and I could not hold it. I kept saying to her I had to go and I explained the condition to her and so she -- I said "you may go with me, come go with me." She wouldn't go with me, she wouldn't let me out. So I just could 00:27:00not wait and I told her "now I dread doing this, because I think more of myself than this, but now this is something you have no control over. You won't let me go, so here goes." And I let go.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever go back to Newberry's after that?

THOMPKINS: No, I did not.

HUNTLEY: Have you been back to Newberry's since that event?

THOMPKINS: No, I have not.

HUNTLEY: Well, Newberry's is about to close now I believe, so I guess you probably never will get that chance again.

THOMPKINS: Thank God they are.

HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate in the Movement?

THOMPKINS: Yes. I had a niece to -- I had a niece that did.

HUNTLEY: How active was she?

THOMPKINS: Very active. She was with the group of young people that were arrested to go to Fair Park. When they took them to Fair Park those young people 00:28:00raised so much sand, they said that we did not march to go to Fair Park we want to go to jail with everybody else. They kept telling them the jail was crowded. They said "well we didn't march to go to Fair Park." So they had to end up taking those young people to the overcrowded jail as it was. They would not rest. They said, "we marched to go to jail. We want to go to jail where everybody else is."

HUNTLEY: So they didn't consider Fair Park as being jail?

THOMPKINS: Right. But they took them to jail when they got through with them. They were glad to take them to jail.

HUNTLEY: How did other family members of yours react to your participation?

THOMPKINS: I don't think they were -- I don't think the family members were too surprised because they know that I have always stood by my convictions. I might not always be right but they knew I have always stood by my own convictions -- 00:29:00that nobody pushes me into anything but if I decide this is what I want to do, then I just might do that. They weren't surprised and they did not know where I was. And I was asked if your family knew where you were. And I said "no, but they'll know it when they see the 5:00 o'clock news." And that's when they knew I was in jail. They weren't worried about me then.

HUNTLEY: Did other brothers and sisters ever participate?

THOMPKINS: No.

HUNTLEY: So, you were sort of the lone one that decided to participate in the movement. What church were you a member of?

THOMPKINS: New Pilgrim Baptist Church.

HUNTLEY: What was the level of involvement of your pastor and your church?

THOMPKINS: My pastor and my church was very much involved as much as I was. The pastor was very much involved. The church, I'd say was about 80% because there 00:30:00was still those who did not. Well the church was totally involved because those who didn't march they supported us.

HUNTLEY: Who was your pastor?

THOMPKINS: Dr. Nelson H. Smith, Jr.

HUNTLEY: And he was quite actively involved so he sort of set the example then for the rest of the church, I assume?

THOMPKINS: Right.

HUNTLEY: What benefits did you, your family, your community realize as a result of the Movement?

THOMPKINS: We have realized the things that a family, myself and others are enjoying today. We have enjoyed the communications. There are better communication between Black, White and other minority groups. They look upon you now for who you are and not the color or your skin, more or less. We still have some diehards out there and that's what they are "die hards" and that's what they are going to do "die hard." Because they refuse to let God in their lives 00:31:00and realize that all blood is red and out of one blood came all nations. So we have realized the things that we are enjoying now and there is more to come.

HUNTLEY: So you would suggest that the Movement then was, in fact, a success?

THOMPKINS: The Movement is a success but not as much as I'd like to see it be. Because the Movement is still moving, but we need some more of the kids moving with us. If our young people come on later, they seem to take these things for granted that they are enjoying. That it's always been this way, but it has not always been this way and if they don't get on the bandwagon and help us keep moving, they will be back where we are talking about. They are trying to move back fast, but those people who see the things as we see them and are willing to put God with them, God in front, God behind and God on each side and walk right 00:32:00on through, they can accomplish much. Because He has overcome the world and we can accomplish things much in His strength.

HUNTLEY: Let me back up just a minute and just ask you about the demonstrations in '63. The mass demonstrations from April and May of 1963. Were you still actively involved at that time?

THOMPKINS: April and May of '63?

HUNTLEY: Yes.

THOMPKINS: I certainly was. That's when Sixteenth Street Church was bombed.

HUNTLEY: Yes. That was right after.

THOMPKINS: I didn't get in the bombing, but I was somewhere else marching. I think we were marching towards, if I'm not sure. There was a group of us marching towards Sixteenth Street because I think we had marched all over town and we might have been getting ready to go to a meeting or something during that time just before that Sunday that the church was bombed. But, I was somewhere marching, I remember that much.

HUNTLEY: The church was bombed in September. The big demonstrations were in April and the children, of course, got involved in May -- the first few days of May. This is when the water hoses and the police dogs and Bull Conner came out. What do you remember about that?

THOMPKINS: I remember leaving the 9th Street site from 6th Avenue of our church where it was located then. We were walking to Fair Park -- I mean to Memorial Park and as we were approaching Memorial Park that's where we met Bull Conner and the fire hoses and the water.

HUNTLEY: What happened?

THOMPKINS: We got wet and almost blown away from the force of the water.

HUNTLEY: Were you, at that point, in a position where you actually got wet and were you not arrested at that time?

THOMPKINS: Yes. They took you wet, dry, they didn't care how you were. Just so they got us to jail, they didn't care.

HUNTLEY: Then the marching on the Southside, in Memorial Park, that's one of those that's very popularly know and people talk about that one all the time. Were you involved in any of the demonstrations downtown in Kelley Ingram Park --

THOMPKINS: All of those.

HUNTLEY: -- between 16th Street?

THOMPKINS: All of those that I can remember were predominately downtown in that area.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about those?

THOMPKINS: I remember that the park was very nasty. It was not well kept as it is now because nobody cared. We were just there they didn't care whether we kept it up or not. And when we got to Kelley Ingram Park many of our meetings were 00:35:00held at the Sixteenth Street Church and when it was hot, we were out in the park. Many of the meetings were outdoors.

HUNTLEY: Meetings in the park?

THOMPKINS: In the park.

HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to add that we have not dealt with relating to your activity in the Civil Rights Movement?

THOMPKINS: Yes. I think that it cannot be over stressed or over emphasized to our young people that there is a need for you to keep trusting God, put God first and keep moving because there's nothing out here in the streets shooting up everybody and all these things we say and we say we are fighting for civil rights. No. This is not Dr. King's dream and this is not the way. The way is 00:36:00plain and simple. We've got to love everybody. We've got to love everybody regardless of race, creed or color and we've got to move together in unity.

And our Black young people have got to stop doing things to each other and start looking up and have to want to do. If they want something with God's, help they can do it. We've got to get a new lease on self-image and we've got to re-evaluate ourselves and put our priorities in the right place. And I think with this, the Movement will still be moving.

HUNTLEY: Well, I want to thank you for taking the time again Mrs. Thompkins to just give us information that you have because what we are attempting to do is to gather information from individuals who were actively involved like yourself so that information can be housed at the Civil Rights Institute. And I just want 00:37:00to thank you again for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit with us this morning. Thank you.

THOMPKINS: Thank you very much.