Judge Charles Nice

NICE: My son made a comment to me the other day. You know, this new book that's come out on Alabama History had me listed in there.

HUNTLEY: Right. I've been reading that. Let me just start, though, with just a statement. This is an interview for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute done by Dr. Horace Huntley. I am sitting with Judge Charles Nice. Today is March 23, 1995. We are at Miles College and I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule to come out and talk with us today.

NICE: Well, Dr. Huntley, I appreciate you inviting me.

HUNTLEY: We really appreciate it because we know the role that you've played and it's been a rather significant role and one really that has not gotten the credit that it's due. But before we start to talk about your involvement, I would just like to get a little background information. Tell me a little about your...first, your parents. Where were you from? Where were you born?

NICE: I was from Birmingham. I was born in Birmingham. My father was born in Tennessee, East Tennessee. His father had a little hardware store and he went to the...went to college two years at the University of Pennsylvania, I mean, the University of Tennessee and then went to the University of Pennsylvania to med school. And there, he met my mother who lived in. . . there in Philadelphia. So he came to Birmingham and he started off as a doctor for one of the mines and then moved into Birmingham and became. . . and practiced medicine here for a 00:02:00number of years.

HUNTLEY: So, did he work for TCI or US Steel prior to....

NICE: I think he worked one of those was connected. I don't think it was TCI but it was maybe the other one, but he only stayed out there in the mines two or three years. I mean in that area where he was a doctor for all conditions and everything. and delivering babies and everything. Then he moved in Birmingham near Five Points and then we moved up to where I was born on Iroquois Street. It's 29th Street, I think it is, now.

HUNTLEY: 29th Street, yes sir. You were born in December. I believe it was the same day as I was born, just a few years earlier than I.

NICE: A lot of years before you.

HUNTLEY: Yes, but then you went on to school at Lakeview Elementary School. Tell 00:03:00me a little about what you remember about your days at Lakeview.

NICE: Well, Lakeview had very fine teachers. Of course, everybody was White then and very fine teachers there and then went there for a whole eight years and then I went from there to Ramsay High School.

HUNTLEY: And, you graduated from Ramsay High School.

NICE: Ramsay High School.

HUNTLEY: Tell me a little bit about Ramsay. Ramsay, of course, now is an integrated high school. At the time that you were in it, of course, it was a segregated high school. Were there any relations. . . relationships between. . . kids at Ramsay High and any of the other black schools at the time that you were there?

NICE: No.

HUNTLEY: None whatsoever.

NICE: You know, I wasn't even aware practically that there was a White/Black school system. It was just the way it was and nobody came and talked to us about it. You didn't hear about it in church.

HUNTLEY: It was just one of those things that you didn't discuss.

NICE: Well, I guess so. I don't even remember the issue, but it was an issue.

HUNTLEY: Yes. What did you do after high school?

NICE: Then, I went to the University of North Carolina. And, at the University of North Carolina, I had probably the greatest, teacher...well the one that was head of the...what do you call them?

HUNTLEY: The Chair of the department or the mentor, probably.

NICE: Yeah, the mentor, Dr. Frank Graham. He was the principal, I mean the head of the whole school. . .

HUNTLEY: The President of the school?

NICE: The President, and they had nothing like the students they have today. But, what a great fellow he was. One day I was at. . . one evening I got word to come to see him or call him, I forget which. But anyway, I made contact with him and he. . . he said. . . and I knew Mrs. Roosevelt had been there. She had been there speaking. This was about 1936 or something like that. And, she was there speaking that night and he said, would you drive her over to. . . over to her 00:05:00train over in Greensboro, which was about fifty miles away. Well, I had been to Greensboro once, but I had never driven over there on the road. There was no freeway like today. He said, "Take my car, and drive her over there." So, I drove Mrs. Roosevelt. . .

HUNTLEY: This is Eleanor Roosevelt.

NICE: Eleanor Roosevelt, and her assistant, the lady, Miss Thompson I think it was, that went with her as her secretary. We drove over there. I got on the wrong road at one time. This was about eight o'clock--eight or nine o'clock at night. But, what a wonderful lady. Of course, Franklin Roosevelt was my favorite always. Lincoln and then Franklin Roosevelt.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever get a chance to meet the President?

NICE: I never met him. He came to school my first year there and on our birthday and I was the first person. I was in there in the audience. . . in the new gymnasium, where they play basketball. I was there five hours ahead of time to 00:06:00be sure I got a seat right up near the front and I was there right in front of him and saw how...what a terrible hardship it was for him to stand up. And, these men helped him on up beside. . . the little, the things that were made for him to walk up.

HUNTLEY: A little incline.

NICE: Yes, a little incline. And, then, as he got up and down to the seat. . . once or twice, you could see how hard it was...I was just amazed. I said, 'I never realized that before.' I had never seen anything like that, how hard it was for him to stand up and hear him talk that day. But, you see, he had a lot to do with my growing on. . . race relations. Especially, Frank Graham had a lot to do. And my mother and father, without knowing it, because they weren't. . . they didn't preach on the subject, but my mother taught me always. . .She read 00:07:00to me from five, six, and seven years old. She read to me all the time. That's why I love history so much. She always told me that Blacks were mistreated, the Indians were mistreated, and she'd say things like that and that would get my mind to thinking right then, 'What could be done about that?'

HUNTLEY: Why did you not go to the University of Alabama?

NICE: My father said that he'd like me to get out of the state. He thought I would play too much, come home every weekend. Well, anyway, one day in the summer of 1938 before I went to school, before I selected my school, I said. . . My brother-in-law. . . At Christmas, the family was all there. He said, 'Where you going?' I said, 'I think I'll go to the University of North Carolina.' And he said, 'Oh, that's Franklin Roosevelt's school.' Well, from that moment, I had decided where I was going---to the University of North Carolina. I don't know why he said that. I think there were a lot of New Dealers down there at the school, teachers and all, who were going there for graduate courses and he had 00:08:00read that.

HUNTLEY: What was your major?

NICE: History.

HUNTLEY: You're a history major.

NICE: Yes.

HUNTLEY: So, after you finished at North Carolina, what do you do?

NICE: I was rejected at the Army and waited around for two or three years and went to Yale to law school. Well, my father had gotten sick and was having heart trouble and it was hard on him to pay all the money and for one reason or another I decided to leave. I'd passed everything in my first year, all my courses, but I changed and went to Alabama and I knew that politics was my love. I wanted to be in politics.

HUNTLEY: Your father was active in the YMBC, the Young Men's Business ....

NICE: No, I don't think so.

HUNTLEY: He wasn't, but you were?

NICE: I was in the YMCA because I went there for years to work out after I graduated from college.

HUNTLEY: So, you, then, became rather active in the community when you returned to Birmingham?

NICE: Yes, and I was in some local political things. I was in the Young Mens Business Club and those things. I was appointed by one of our men, who at that time, he was head of the city to be in charge of that race, you know, when they were trying to get everything into the city? Well, I was in charge of the outlying communities--Cooper Green. He appointed me Chairman of the outlying communities to get them to join into Birmingham. Well, my group passed-- in other words, the outlying were voted in by the people who lived there. 'We want to come in,' they said, so they did come in. So, I was in charge of that group. Cooper Green did me a favor and appointed me to that position.

HUNTLEY: Well, we should have appointed you to about thirty five others and maybe we would have had a metropolitan government by now.

NICE: Wasn't that Birmingham vote--? Didn't that just fail by one vote of Homewood coming in?

HUNTLEY: Right, it actually passed initially and then they redid the election or something and it failed.

NICE: Well, I was in.going to all those meetings at night.

HUNTLEY: Yeah, I talked with Chuck Morgan about that and he told me the very same thing.

NICE: What a fine guy.

HUNTLEY: Yes. So, you became, then, rather politically active in the community and then you decided that you wanted to run for the state legislature?

NICE: Yes, and I had become a law clerk to Frank. . . to Judge Lynn and I was with him for three years. I was waiting for the time for the legislature to run again and I left him on the end of February-- No, it was the last day of 19. . . when was it that I ran for the legislature? I don't have it.

HUNTLEY: [19]54, I believe.

NICE: '54 and I ran for legislature. I didn't accept a cent of money that first race, but for three months, of course, I was living at home. I could afford to do it, and I was single. For three months, I walked this county just campaigning and I won that race. And that's the time when they picked just seven. You didn't 00:11:00run for an individual seat, you just--They just-- The top seven were the elected ones.

HUNTLEY: That's interesting.

NICE: And, we had three or four millionaires in that group.

HUNTLEY: Were you one of those millionaires?

NICE: (laughing) No, no. We had three or four. Hugh Kaul was one. There were two or three others.

HUNTLEY: I noticed that during your time in the legislature you never missed a meeting. You had perfect attendance.

NICE: I enjoyed every minute of it and you get to wondering... Sometimes you'd get there and you'd vote and they'd have a vote and you'd vote to adjourn immediately. It wasn't that you wanted to get home, but it was simply the fact that you were trying to keep some vote from being brought up.

HUNTLEY: Right.

NICE: If you thought they could beat it that day and you didn't want that to prevail and you wanted to wait until you had that chance to get in some of your people, who would vote your way, on your side...

HUNTLEY: Well, you actually ran for the one term and afterwards you didn't run 00:12:00for that next term...not a consecutive term.

NICE: No, I just thought that with the adverse publicity and all that I wouldn't have a chance. I think by hindsight it might have been good, but they would have organized against me like they did in the subsequent races.

HUNTLEY: Because you did-- In '62, you decided to try it again and you did have opposition. Let me just share a couple of . . .

NICE: They changed the system somewhat. Then you had opponents in the next few races.

HUNTLEY: Right, your opponent was Quenton Bowers for Place 15 and this is some of the publicity that was put out in relationship to the race. Bowers said that, 'All elected members of our Jefferson County's delegation are staunch supporters of the segregation.' And this is in 1962. 'So are other Alabama legislators.'

Then, it goes on to say, 'Quenton Bowers will stand by their side in upholding our way of life. His opponent, Mr. Charles Nice, cast the only vote in the House 00:13:00against the Boutwell Public School Placement Law to protect our schools against race mixing. Mr. Nice also cast the only vote in the House against our legislature's resolution condemning the U.S. Supreme Court integration decision. Standing alone in our legislature for integration in Alabama, can Mr. Nice effectively represent the people of Jefferson County?'

NICE: That is, 'the White people.'

HUNTLEY: The White people. That really is a commentary, then, on your public life as far as representing Jefferson County. You. . . On May 17, 1957, a resolution pledging Alabama's opposition and resistance to the U.S. Supreme Court's decision, Brown v. Board, actually passed by a vote of 86 to one. You 00:14:00were that one. Tell me about that. Why would you vote against everyone else in the state legislature?

NICE: Well, they were wrong, and I knew they were wrong and I looked upon that opportunity as a great opportunity to vote against it. They would. . . It would end the public-school system if it was integrated in any way, and I wasn't about to vote otherwise. So I looked upon it as a great opportunity.

HUNTLEY: What was the relationship, then, with other members after you would not make this a unanimous vote?

NICE: Well, you know the big corporations would go by--would come by in the morning and invite various legislators out for lunch--the power company and all the other utility companies--and they would just come by me and walk on past. 00:15:00And, so, usually I was eating alone, although there was Pat Vacca there who was a friend and he ate with me a lot, or I'd go out and see somebody in town that I knew who was a friend of mine.

HUNTLEY: You were sort of isolated then?

NICE: I was isolated. And then, I don't know, but it didn't always stand up. Some days one of them would ask me out. He wouldn't have any lunch plans. I don't recall the issues exactly.

HUNTLEY: Here's another one on August 13, 1957: 'The House of Representatives in another move to protect the schools of Alabama against U. S. Supreme Court's integration decision, passed by a vote of 91 to one the Boutwell Public School Pupil Placement Law. Mr. Charles Nice, again, was the only member of the House who voted against this Pupil Placement Law, a measure to uphold and safeguard 00:16:00Alabama's school segregation policy.' You again vote against all of your fellow legislators. Why?

NICE: Because I knew I was right. (begins to get emotional) Excuse me, since I've had that stroke, I get a little sentimental. You'll have to excuse me and cut that off if my voice cracks too much.

HUNTLEY: Yes. But that took courage.

NICE: Well, look what an opportunity I had. My son, when this article came out. . . What is the book that was written on Alabama history, you know by Wayne...?

HUNTLEY: Wayne Flynt, yes.

NICE: My son, who is about thirty, said to me one night, he said, 'Dad'--and he mentioned the fellow's name, but I forget who it was--'said to me,' and, incidentally, it's the only time I think I've ever heard anybody refer to that book-- He said, 'This friend said to me, where did your dad get such courage? And, I just had to tell him, that didn't take courage, he couldn't have done 00:17:00otherwise.' That's what he said. And, that's true.

HUNTLEY: So you just felt that this was. . . You were duty bound.

NICE: Oh, yeah. It was-- I mean, it was an idea whose time had come and passed several hundred years. . . whose time had come and I wasn't going to let it get by. I knew, basically, one, that it was right regardless of the other--of how many voted with me or with nobody voting. I knew it was a time that had come and I was going to be on the right side. (voice cracks) Excuse my voice cracking up. It wouldn't have done like this a year ago.

HUNTLEY: Yes. What, then, after this race, after these votes that you are taking, what kind of repercussions did you?

NICE: Well, it really wasn't as bad as you'd expect. I mean, I got home and people didn't come up to me and say, 'What about your vote.?' I think I had a 00:18:00few people in downtown who mentioned it to me that they didn't like it or something, but it wasn't very much. Really, the papers didn't give this much play. I'm surprised, but the [Birmingham]News. . . and I would have been so proud for them to say something. It seems like every time I was proud of something the News wouldn't mention it.

HUNTLEY: They wouldn't publish that?

NICE: They wouldn't publish it if I was proud of it, and I was proud of this.

HUNTLEY: Well, after that, was it directly after that that you, then, went out to Fultondale, I believe? Were you a judge in Fultondale?

NICE: Yes, I was a judge in Fultondale. I'd go out there one day a week for a number of years.

HUNTLEY: And you were in private [law] practice?

NICE: I was in private practice. I may have done other things at the time. I may have gone out there when I was with Judge. . . No, I didn't. I think I was just in private practice.

HUNTLEY: Tell me. This is really the same time, approximately the same time, that the Movement is sort of escalating in Birmingham and, of course, in 1960 we 00:19:00have the sit-ins around the South. In '61 the Freedom Riders would visit Birmingham. . .

NICE: There two things I want to say. Can I interject at this time?

HUNTLEY: Sure, absolutely.

NICE: A lot of times, when my friends-- What's the fellow's name who is Mayor of Birmingham right then?

HUNTLEY: Boutwell.

NICE: Right after Boutwell, the White fellow that was. . .

HUNTLEY: Art Haynes?

NICE: Before Art Haynes. This was a liberal that still represents the city as a lawyer.

HUNTLEY: Oh, Vann--David Vann.

NICE: David Vann.

HUNTLEY: Okay.

NICE: A lot of times they were involved in things and I wanted to join them, but I kept--played a low key because I wanted to go back to the legislature. I wanted to run for a judgeship and I didn't know when that would. . . might come. 00:20:00And, so, I was going to stay a little quiet. So, a lot of those things I helped David some on-- When they changed the laws of the city, I did help some from the Young Men's Business Club. Now, the other thing I want to mention about. . . and this has never come out and I don't why.

When they condemned the United States Supreme Court, the legislature did-- I cast the only vote, I think we read that. . . I cast the only vote against that, condemning--so I--They condemned the Supreme Court of the United States and that was right when the other votes were taken. And yet, those...those actions, that and the others must have been taken out of the books and destroyed, because there's no record of it that I know of. Now, whether if somebody could find it in the newspapers in Montgomery or some other place, I don't know.

HUNTLEY: It's probably. . . it's probably listed. We'll just have to find it. But it does say here that 'On August 28, 1962, Mr. Charles Nice again swept all 00:21:00of the Negro boxes.' For example, in Precinct 9. . .

NICE: And the reason the Birmingham News put that in is 'cause they knew it'd hurt me in Mountain Brook and all the White sections and they wanted to do all the damage. So whereas I was proud of that, it would keep me from getting the White vote, and I had to have the White vote also.

HUNTLEY: In Legion Field you received 553 votes to 31 votes for your opponent, so in each of the Black boxes you won, but you could not do the same in the White boxes?

NICE: Yes, and you know. . . I never understood-- When I became a judge and ran and in my last race Sandra Ross defeated me and I've always. . . and the Mayor, the present Mayor--

HUNTLEY: Arrington?

NICE: Arrington. He told her-- He gave her the freedom to get into the race. I mean, he told her to come on, get in the race and he would support her against 00:22:00me. He had been my friend. He told me he liked my votes against segr. . . against capital punishment. I had supported him in his race. I'd contributed some money. I'd been with, what's his name that was my good friend. . . I'll get it right here, just a second. . . but was a good friend of his too. Yeah, I've got it right here. Charles Merriweather was my good friend and there the Mayor got Sandra Ross in the race, told her he'd give the Black support to her, and she got in five minutes before the election boxes were closed. She had told me that she wasn't going to run against me.

She was in the office with my assistant, whatever they call them. So, she ran and defeated me and as soon as she got in the race, as Charles Merriweather told 00:23:00me, he said, 'You can't win now.' And others told me that, because you're going to lose the Black vote. I was hoping that I could get the Black vote with about 60 and I felt sure I'd get 60-70 percent of the Black vote and just may be 40 percent of the White vote. I wasn't going get the majority. I knew that, but I had to have the overwhelming Black vote and I would have had another term. And here, on all my cases, when I was in the. . . As a judge, when I was acting as a judge, every single time the jury gave death, I commuted it to life imprisonment without parole. That's the only alternative I had. I was against capital punishment.

HUNTLEY: You were opposed to capital punishment.

NICE: I was opposed to capital punishment. I commuted every single one of them and we had two or three very bad ones, so I thought Arrington would be with me. And when I became the Judge of the Family Court, every time a White was tried for a case. . . I mean a Black was tried for a case in which he could be given the electric chair, White or Black, if they were a minor, and that's all that 00:24:00was tried out there, I would not let that child be tried as an adult. If they were tried as an adult, White or Black, they could be sent to the electric chair, and I knew that Blacks had a good chance of going to the electric chair on a capital case where the. . . kids are not charged with that.

So, I would try it myself. Then, if I found them guilty, I would send them off for a year. I'd put on there three years, but they. . . if the courts, the Superior Courts. . . they could pay no attention to that. Because, all the law required was about a year and the public was furious. The guy commits somebody and then he'd get let off in a year, but I was not going to let that fellow be tried by an adult court because if he was given the electric chair, that is a sentence. It might be granted, and I didn't believe in that.

HUNTLEY: Why do you think the Mayor opposed you or supported your opponent?

NICE: I don't know. I mean, it was politics and he was able to work out a deal. Some business men had told me they were going to defeat me because they were 00:25:00tired of this crime and I know the people were concerned about it, but. . . capital punishment is not going to end crime. And I'd do the same thing today and I think they just went to the Mayor and worked out some deal with him and so he supported Sandra Ross. Sandra Ross had not been in the legislature. She's a fine person, but she had never had the opportunities I had and she had never commuted cases of Blacks, like I had and, and. . .

So I'll never know the answer to that--why he turned against me. I thought he was my ally. He had said to me that he. . . he liked my stand on capital punishment and Merriweather, who was working with me, was his good friend and I'd been to fund raising meetings with Merriweather for him, so I don't know what the grounds for that were and I'd like to know. Merriweather said, 'Don't ever speak. . . don't ever say anything to him about it,' and I didn't. I tried to, but I couldn't.

HUNTLEY: Your involvement-- During this time, you were obviously one of the 00:26:00civic leaders that had tried to change the--really the landscape of Birmingham's race relationships. Did you have any involvement with any of the Civil Rights leaders in Birmingham in the early '60s?

NICE: I did not. I would like to have had. You mean the out of state leaders?

HUNTLEY: In state.

NICE: In state. Well, I mean, the people around Birmingham I knew and I was probably in luncheons with them.

HUNTLEY: What about Fred Shuttlesworth? Did you know Fred in those early days?

NICE: I wouldn't say in the early days I did, but I did know him ten or fifteen years ago and I'd go out to see him to get his support for my elections and things like that. And, I would see him when he would come down here. . . at some of the civil rights meetings. . . when he'd come down-- Where is he?

HUNTLEY: He's in Cincinnati.

NICE: Cincinnati?

HUNTLEY: Right.

NICE: When he'd come home, I would see him.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about the April and May of 1963 during the demonstrations that were taking place here in the area now that we are calling the Civil Rights District--the marches, the police?

NICE: I went to some of those. For two or three years I was with the U.S. Attorney's Office and I had-- One of my jobs was to go down, stand on the street there and keep an eye. . . just keep my eyes open to what was going on and report back to Washington in case they needed to send any support down here to stop it and all. And there was one person that was in charge of that. When he left then I did it for a while, so I did see some of the things. I didn't see 00:28:00the bad days, but I did see some and I would call Washington and tell them what I'd seen.

HUNTLEY: You'd give a report to Washington about what was taking place in the streets of Birmingham.

NICE: I was really the assistant of the one who did that, but I did do it on some occasions. I was to let them know how bad it was getting and then about that time, it was the election and I guess it was Nixon that won and I was out of office.

HUNTLEY: What church were you attending at that time?

NICE: I was raised as a Presbyterian [on the] Southside there.

HUNTLEY: Was your church--? During this time, what was the stance of the church on civil rights activities that were taking place?

NICE: I don't remember any stance. I don't think they did anything. They just preached the regular things, but I mean, that wasn't considered one of the things, and its always. . . I've always wondered why the churches didn't take a 00:29:00more active stance. We used to-- You see, ministers, more than anybody else, can hardly stand to take a position that's contrary to their congregation. If it's in any way radical or out of line then they are going to be removed. It's unfortunate. I've always wondered, 'Why don't they take a stand? Why don't they say something about this?' It's simply that they won't be there if they do.

HUNTLEY: So, they were basically following their congregation rather than leading the congregation.

NICE: That's right, absolutely. And you had some good men, but they just weren't going to do that and they would say, 'Well, I have to stay away from it so I can keep my job.' I mean, that's what they were thinking to themselves, I imagine.

HUNTLEY: What role would you say Birmingham has played in changing the status quo of race relations in this country?

NICE: Very little. And your leading businessmen, who could have taken it with impunity, probably, didn't do anything. Yet they got some credit for some things I thought were little or nothing, what they did at the end when the real changes were made.

HUNTLEY: Do you think that efforts of civil rights activists in Birmingham had an impact on the changing of the status quo in the South?

NICE: Absolutely. It wouldn't have occurred if it didn't.

HUNTLEY: Did you agree with what was going on at the time that the demonstrations were going on? The sit-ins, the. . .

NICE: I knew that if they didn't do those things, things wouldn't be changed.

HUNTLEY: Were there discussions among your contemporaries about what was going on?

NICE: Well, the fellows my age, Chuck Morgan and others, were generally favorable. It was just understood that. . . I think that we recognized they were right, but I don't recall there was much being said. It was just understood they were right and we weren't critical, but we were watching everything.

HUNTLEY: Chuck Morgan, of course, took some active-- He took an active role and, in fact, he had to leave Birmingham as a result of his role that he took.

NICE: To have full years of himself and his abilities and all, he left. But, I don't know. He could have stayed here. He would have had a tough time getting elected to anything but I was there at the meeting at the Young Men's Business Club the day he spoke after the church was bombed and the two girls killed. I 00:32:00was there when he spoke out that day and I--and, really, most of the fellows in the Young Men's Business Club were fairly liberal and I was president of that and I got speakers there.

HUNTLEY: Yes, because that was one of the areas that you were quite actively involved in, the Young Men's Business Club.

NICE: Yes.

HUNTLEY: If you could turn the clock back and would become a chief advisor to the powers that were in Birmingham at the time, how would you advise them, as the Movement progressed?

NICE: I would do what I could to slowly push them a little faster. There's only so much you can do. You'll be completely ineffective if you go too far, but 00:33:00everything they did that was a little liberal, if you could say, 'That's the right thing. That's good,' and encourage them on that and encourage them a little more, a little more, a little more. . . But, there's only so much you can do with people to get them to move.

HUNTLEY: One of your friends said that you were 'a man ahead of his times.' Do you think if you had come along a little bit later, when things had changed, that you would have been able to spend more time in the legislature and possibly do more for. . .?

NICE: I would have liked to. I mean, I wanted a political career and I was stopped right there.

HUNTLEY: Do you regret what you did?

NICE: No. No, because I couldn't have lived with myself if I had voted other than the way I did on that occasion. I knew I was right and I just don't . . . 00:34:00what time it is. How would I have? What if I had said that morning, 'Well, just hold off. Just don't vote on this, because not only does that represent the vote, but there were several that weren't there. Ten or twelve of fifteen weren't there. They just didn't show up that day. They knew the vote was going to take place and people urged me, 'Just don't go that day. Stay out of it.' And I could have been elected again, but I couldn't have lived with myself. I mean I felt so strongly--

HUNTLEY: Well, I sure. . .

NICE: I'm not trying to be noble about it, but I mean that's just a fact.

HUNTLEY: Those are facts that I think will have to come out and will really be highlighted. And, that's what we are attempting to do, really--to get information from individuals like yourself who had a role to play and played that role well. What we want to do is to have that information in the archives at the Civil Rights Institute so that scholars can come in and take a look at it.

NICE: I wish they could have seen me when I wasn't. . . when I hadn't had this stroke and I was a stronger person and I could think better--could express 00:35:00myself better.

HUNTLEY: Sure.

NICE: But one thing I do want to tell you, the whole time in the legislature, that four years, I could go in. . . to where the votes were taking place. . . the House and there were some of the big law firms of Alabama--Cabaniss and Johnson were the main ones. They had their leaders, their people down there. They would go out to the other states around here, South Carolina, they'd go to Georgia and they would coordinate all their work together and that should be emphasized. Theirs' were the brains behind these bills.

HUNTLEY: The big law firms?

NICE: The big law firms. They were doing the work, and Albert Boutwell, he was coordinating it, getting it together, getting the bills ready. . . seeing that they were timed with other states. I mean, I'm putting in my words then, but I know Cabaniss and Johnson were down here and maybe other law firms, too. I saw 00:36:00those people. I knew them and I. . . They were down there and that's what they were doing, working with other states. So that should never be overlooked. The law firms from the big states of the South were working together to coordinate this system.

HUNTLEY: To continue this system of segregation?

NICE: Yes. . . and the ideas came from these other states working with them and they would come here with Englehardt from one of the southern states and Boutwell and two or three others. They would get together.

HUNTLEY: Right. That's really important because that's really not emphasized.

NICE: Yes and I mean I recognized those fellows. I'd seen them in Birmingham when I was a law clerk to Judge Lynn. I saw those lawyers, I knew who they were and I spoke to them and they spoke to me, so I know it was Cabaniss and Johnson and may be some other firms too, but they were the principle firm that were working.

HUNTLEY: Well, Judge Nice, I want to thank you again for coming out today, 00:37:00taking the time and sitting and giving us this information. I appreciate this written material as well. This will go into the archives and if there is anything else that you'd have that you would like to donate. . .

NICE: I might find something and I'll call you if I do.

HUNTLEY: We would very much like to have it. Thank you very much.

NICE: Thank you so much.