Carolyn McKinstry Interviewed on April 23, 1998

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Carolyn McKinstry for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I'm Dr. Horace Huntley, we're presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is April 23, 1998. I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule, in fact, you've just driven back from Atlanta to come and sit and talk to me today about Birmingham and the movement. Welcome to the Institute.

MCKINSTRY: Thank you, I appreciate the invitation. It's always good to share the historical aspects of things that we lived through and are still living through.

HUNTLEY: That's right and you've been so generous with that for all kinds of 00:01:00people from all over the world. Let me just ask you about your parents. Were your parents from Birmingham? First of all, were you born in Birmingham?

MCKINSTRY: I was born in Clanton, Alabama which is about 56 miles from here in Chilton County. I lived there until I was two years old and then my parents moved to Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: How many siblings do you have?

MCKINSTRY: I have four brothers and one sister. I'm in the middle, two boys older, two boys younger and then my sister is the baby.

HUNTLEY: When your family moved to Birmingham what neighborhood did they move to?

MCKINSTRY: We moved to, it's called Aylesbury Community but it's ACIPCO. It's 16th Street and Finley Avenue but also known as Aylesbury Park, also known as ACIPCO.

HUNTLEY: Then were you raised up in ACIPCO?

MCKINSTRY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What about your parents' educational backgrounds? How much education did they have?

MCKINSTRY: Both my parents taught school. My dad taught physics and chemistry. He had a master's degree in that. He waited tables at night but taught school during the day. My mom had a Degree in elementary education.

HUNTLEY: Where did they teach?

MCKINSTRY: My father retired from Huffman High School. However, he was part of Parker when it still had the name Industrial High School. He taught there for many years under that name and then under the Parker name. Then under the Carver High School name and was subsequently moved to Huffman when the integration order came.

HUNTLEY: So, he was one of the first teachers that went out to Huffman.

MCKINSTRY: Right.

HUNTLEY: I'm sure he had some interesting stories to tell about that.

MCKINSTRY: He did, he did.

HUNTLEY: And your mother, where did she teach?

MCKINSTRY: My mom retired from Pratt Elementary School. Some of the schools that 00:03:00she taught, when she first came to Birmingham she was at Hooper City Elementary School which is not there anymore. She taught at Northside which is not there anymore. Actually Pratt is not there anymore either. She taught at Lewis Elementary and there is one other one in there somewhere, but she retired from Pratt.

HUNTLEY: Growing up in ACIPCO what kind of community was ACIPCO at the time?

MCKINSTRY: Well, I probably wouldn't have seen it this way at that time, but it was probably a fairly middle-class neighborhood. We had quite a few professional people there. There were any number of teachers that lived on our street. In fact, my eighth-grade teacher lived on my street and my seventh grade teacher lived two streets behind me. So, you know it was quite common then to have your 00:04:00teachers or principal living close by. Also, one of probably two if I've got that right.

During that time, we had two maybe Black CPA's in the city of Birmingham and one of those lived directly across the street. Maurice Rouse one of our bondsmen during that time. We knew him because he owned the vending company too and we could sometime get old records from him. In fact, one of my brothers worked with him for a long time and when he would travel to the different little cities stocking the record machines, [inaudible] or whatever then he paid him to travel with him. So, we knew all these people quite well and they took quite an interest in what you did, particularly if you were doing well in things.

HUNTLEY: Were there people that worked at ACIPCO, at the mill or the plant that lived in your general area? Now you were in Aylesbury.

MCKINSTRY: Aylesbury Park.

HUNTLEY: So, was that sort of an enclave of [inaudible]?

MCKINSTRY: You know some of the people in my neighborhood during that time. Dr. Jessie Lewis lived directly behind me. Let's see if I can think of some of them. Mr. Shortridge who they had a funeral home at that time was right on the corner.

HUNTLEY: Very active in the movement.

MCKINSTRY: Yes. Let's see, Mr. Cromwell whose husband was the CPA and of course she was an art instructor. She had two boys that went on that American France program. On the back street there were a couple of other people that I'm trying to remember that you would know. But Jessie Lewis is who stands out. Let's see if I can think a little bit further down. Most of the people in that immediate three or four block area were in fairly professional jobs.

Now, probably about three blocks down Finley toward the Farmer's Market where my 00:06:00elementary school was, where a lot of my classmates and friends lived. A lot of those children their parents worked at places like ACIPCO or TCI and I remember Stockham, several parents working at Stockham. During that time, I don't know if you ever saw there were army barracks that lined.

HUNTLEY: Yes, I vaguely remember that because I had some relatives that lived in that general area.

MCKINSTRY: From the school to the Farmer's Market there were these rows of army barracks. A lot of my friends lived in those and I had a couple of occasions where I went by after school and got a chance to see the inside. For the most part my mom didn't let us visit or go inside anyone else's home. It was just an interesting phenomenon. We thought the army barracks being there.

You know there was a very strong sense in the school and the classroom of everybody in sync toward the same goal. There really was never. I'm not aware of any distinctions being made as far as where anybody worked. Whose parents did what? A couple of kids at the school their parents actually taught at the school. Each teacher, I guess the teachers at that time really understood that it really didn't matter who your parents were to the real world. In the grand scope of things, you know we were all pretty much in the same boat and they understood that.

HUNTLEY: You don't think there were any advantages because one was middle class and one was from a working-class family in the school situation? Were there any distinctions between lighter skin children and dark skin children?

MCKINSTRY: You know I honestly don't think, I didn't see that. I'm not saying 00:08:00that, that concept didn't exist that there were . . . there may have been at some point a little preferential treatment. I honestly didn't see it. We had children in my classes that were on welfare, but we didn't know it. They received free lunches, but we didn't know it because the teachers never made you aware of who was doing what. It just seemed to me that they made, the teachers I had, made a very fair attempt sometimes it might be the fairer skinned children that needed extra help or it might be a child who's parent was a teacher or it might be one of those children living in the army barracks.

We had during that time we had rows. Row number one obviously was the smarter row and if you were in that row and everybody finished their work then you were obliged to help the children in say row number six or seven until they came along. So, in that sense you felt helpful, you felt useful, you felt smart. I 00:09:00know I did, but I was permitted to work in the office. I did, in elementary school, I did a lot of things that probably would have been things that other children would have done at a later age. I think that's why I ended up working at the church as the clerk. I started doing that in the eighth grade and all the way through high school I was the person who kept the attendance records and the money and so forth.

HUNTLEY: What elementary school did you attend?

MCKINSTRY: Finley Avenue Elementary School.

HUNTLEY: Now Finley Avenue was . . . how near was that to your home?

MCKINSTRY: I walked to school every day. It was probably in terms of blocks, city blocks, three blocks. I could walk home just average pace about seven minutes.

HUNTLEY: What stands out in your mind most about Finley Avenue? The school, I mean.

MCKINSTRY: Well, a couple of things. I started, when I started school it was in 00:10:00January. We were still doing the half years. I was in the last class to start in January. I was six years old but I was always a very bright student, so I didn't have to complete the first grade. They just sent me right onto the second grade. That's kind of how I got caught up with the rest of the kids. Claude Wesley, no, James Goodson, Dr. Goodson, was my principal grades one through six. Grades seven and eight was Claude Wesley. When I was in the eighth grade there, you know I participated in Dr. A. G. Gaston's annual spelling contest. That contest was held locally as a city contest. Then a county wide and then the winners from the counties competed on a state level. I of course went on to win on the state level. So, probably during the time that I was at Finley that was, I was an honor student but that was probably my most outstanding accomplishment I guess.

HUNTLEY: So, you had some real good vibes about your experiences in elementary school?

MCKINSTRY: I really did. My teachers made me feel that I was capable. They didn't spoil you. You know there were many times when we would be practicing for the spelling contest. They would rehearse me sometimes from lunch time 12:00 to 4:00. As a child you know I just really got sick of it. There would be days I cried and didn't want to do it anymore. They would just sort of ignore it.

They wouldn't pamper me, and they wouldn't say, "We understand." They would say, "Why don't you go down to the cafeteria and get a coke." I thought that was really special because we didn't have machines when I was in elementary school. A coke was real treat. You couldn't even bring money and buy a coke. So, they would do little things like that for me. I felt very grounded. I felt very capable and very comfortable with their direction. I felt that no matter whatever else that I may have seen in their personalities that ultimately my 00:12:00best interest was being served by what they were trying to do. Somehow we all felt that I think.

They gave us a strong sense of pride. I had teachers that would send students back home. When they came in, in the morning and it appeared that you had not combed your hair or that shirt looked wrinkled or whatever. They would send them back home and tell your mom that I said, "To give you a clean shirt," or whatever. Those types of things we need to do for children, you know.

HUNTLEY: Where did you go when you left Finley Avenue?

MCKINSTRY: I went to Parker High School. A. H. Parker High School.

HUNTLEY: What was that like? Parker has been titled as being the largest Negro school in the world. You leave little Finley Elementary School and go to Parker High School. What was that transition like?

MCKINSTRY: Well, I loved it. I have to say, you know I don't find to many environments that I don't enjoy but I enjoyed it quite a bit. It was a great 00:13:00source of inspiration to be there. There were so many students there and some of them were very accomplished students. The instructors there were just as caring and appeared to what me to be as capable as Finley Avenue did. So, in fact I was invited to participate in a lot of things that I chose not to. Oratorical, they tried for four years to get me to do that and I just had personal reasons why I didn't want to. When I came in the ninth grade one of the first things I remember with in the first two months they had this honor society induction. I remember I was so moved by it because we were in the auditorium and they had darkened the lights and it was very quite. Then there was this very light precession and students marched in holding a candle. It was a very humble, spiritual type ceremony. They went up on the stage and they stood holding the candles.

Then at some point somebody came out and read this announcement about how you qualify to be in it, and they said we are about to tap new students to be inducted. And those students may have had some idea who they were, but I don't know for sure. So, it was really great to watch them to go out in the audience and find a sister or a brother and take their hands, come on you've earned this, come go with me and they would hand them a candle. So, one of my first determinations when I entered Parker in the first two months, I decided that next year I would be one of those students being led up to the stage.

There were a lot of things to aspire to that the environment was really wholesome. We had a lot of extracurricular activities, business club, teachers club, science club. Of course, there's the athletic things, the majorettes. I think I may have been among one of the first female students to take the mechanical drawing class from Mr. Hawkins. At that time, you know girls couldn't 00:15:00go over to the building where the men were but I convinced Mr. Hawkins that I needed to be in that class. He went to bat on our behalf.

HUNTLEY: So, you then . . . you really enjoyed your experience at Parker?

MCKINSTRY: I loved the school. Our principal, R. C. Johnson who we all called "Big Red" was . . . looked big and mean, you know. He would see you in the hall, Little Maull, that was my maiden name, what are you doing in this hall and do you have a pass. I can remember a couple of times when I didn't have a pass but was allowed to escape. So that my have been some of the preferential treatment you were talking about.

But I did, I loved the school. I can't think of very many teachers at all. There 00:16:00were a couple of teachers that were light less and we tended to play tricks on them, but it wasn't a malicious type of thing, you know. It wasn't an obvious show of dislike for them. We just sort of played a few tricks on them. It was a wonderful environment.

HUNTLEY: Now, 1961 was the year the Freedom Riders came through. 1962 was the year the Miles College students developed the selective buying campaign downtown. Of course, 1963 was the year of the demonstrations. Were you at all active in the demonstrations in 1963?

MCKINSTRY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: How did you get involved? What precipitated your involvement?

MCKINSTRY: Something I saw on television. I was sitting at home one day and you know we had never, my parents had never really allowed us to ride the bus. There 00:17:00were a lot of things my parents didn't tell us. Rather than saying you can't they conveniently dropped us off or picked us up rather than have us get on a bus and have someone tell us that we could sit up front. So, this particular day I was watching something on TV and it was when some of these people had first come to town. That's when I became aware of the signs that were on the seats that you moved around.

HUNTLEY: You said some of these people had just come to town. Who were you referring to?

MCKINSTRY: Freedom Riders, I guess. People that had come to town to assist in the integration efforts.

HUNTLEY: Right.

MCKINSTRY: So, I just sort of sat there and decided within myself, I didn't discuss it with anybody. I said, "I'm going to ride this bus. I'm going to find out and see. I'm not moving that sign. If I sit down, I'm going to stay there." I just started thinking these things in my head. So, I had to have an excuse to go downtown. I had to have permission. I told my mom one day, I said, "You know, I need to learn how to start taking care of bills and taking care of things. Don't you need me to pay this bill for you?" She had an account at Parisians. So, I said, "Let me go by and pay it."

I made it appear to be an educational experience. So, she said, "Ok, but you come right home." I said, "I'm just going to pay the bill and then I'll come right home." I did pay the bill but when I got on the bus, probably, fortunately, there wasn't enough people riding the bus that day for it to be an issue where I was sitting. Actually, the bus driver seemed somewhat tolerant of us because I think I probably got on the bus with a little bit of a chip on my shoulder and a look at him that sort of dared him to say anything about where I sat.

HUNTLEY: Were the boards still on the bus at that time?

MCKINSTRY: The boards were there. In fact, there were people when I was sitting there that came up to the front of the bus and paid their money and then went around to the second door to get on the bus, to board the bus. I was trying to figure that out too. That was one of those things where my parents didn't sit down and say well, this is the way it is. So, that was something that was a 00:19:00little bit surprising to me that they would pay their money in the front and then walk around to the back door to get on the bus.

HUNTLEY: Although the bus was not crowded?

MCKINSTRY: No. If there were White people sitting in the front. This is the way it appeared. If there was nobody in the front, White, they could pay their money and walk on board the bus. If there were White sitting in the front they paid their money and then walked back around to the second door and entered and went straight to the back.

HUNTLEY: So, you sat in front of the board?

MCKINSTRY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Were there any reactions?

MCKINSTRY: No.

HUNTLEY: No one reacted?

MCKINSTRY: No one reacted. The bus driver had a look. That's why I think he was somewhat tolerant. I think he suspected what was going on in my mind. I probably had a look. He did not say anything. Where I lived from downtown the number of bus stops between there and my home was probably about six. So, we're not talking about a lot of time, maybe about ten minutes.

HUNTLEY: No one in back said anything?

MCKINSTRY: No.

HUNTLEY: So, you just defied the whole custom. How did that make you feel?

MCKINSTRY: Well, actually I was a little nervous, a little frightened when I first boarded the bus. You know as I sat there I was trying to understand. I didn't have a good understanding of why it was this way.

HUNTLEY: You didn't ride the bus a lot in other words?

MCKINSTRY: No, I'm trying to think. The only other bus I really had ridden, we had a school bus that picked us up every morning to go to Parker High School, but it was called a "special."

HUNTLEY: The "special," right.

MCKINSTRY: It was ten cents to ride.

HUNTLEY: And you sat any place that you want.

MCKINSTRY: Right and it was just children like me, other school children. So, I didn't have a real sense of what the social background and the history, the historical aspects of why this was the way it was.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember what grade you were in?

MCKINSTRY: Ninth grade.

HUNTLEY: You were in ninth grade. So, this was around 1961. Did you ever have 00:21:00any discussion with anybody about that experience? I mean during that particular time. With your friends, or did you ever tell your mother about it?

MCKINSTRY: I didn't discuss . . . my father said no to everything. I didn't give him an opportunity to tell me no for any of this. They found out about most of what I had done after the fact. My mother pretty much let my dad take the lead with the yes or the no's. They were, I understood later why they were . . . both of them taught school, they had four boys that they wanted to live to be a male adult. So, a lot of what they did was done with the idea of protecting us. I rarely discussed . . . my dad was very stern, very strict. I rarely discussed . . . I was sort of one of those people that I would think about it and weigh it and would make my own decision. I'm pretty much that way today.

If I decided to do it, it didn't matter if I was the only one doing it. I had just made that decision so that particular experience along with hearing a lot of the motivational speeches at the church and just things that started happening during that time. I think it sort of propelled me toward the movement. I personally felt very, very inspired and motivated when I would listen to the speeches at the church. Some of the things that they would say about why we were doing the marching . . . what we were trying to accomplish.

It just seemed like for a certain select group of Black people there was a higher goal. Maybe it was the same higher goal for my parents, but they couldn't accomplish it in the same way as these people. So, I wanted to be part of that. It just felt exciting, it felt good, it felt right, and I wanted to be part of that. So, I felt like pretty much if I had discussed it at home that they were 00:23:00going to tell me no, so I didn't.

HUNTLEY: Were you all members of Sixteenth Street?

MCKINSTRY: Yes, we've been at Sixteenth Street since I was two. We moved to Birmingham and my mom joined that church immediately.

HUNTLEY: What then was the first time you remember being involved in the movement. You know in April and May of '63 was when the demonstrations took place. Were you actively involved prior to then? By attending the mass meetings or . . . When did you get involved?

MCKINSTRY: I attended as many mass meetings as I could. I just loved the atmosphere.

HUNTLEY: Starting when though?

MCKINSTRY: Starting probably in terms of what year or . . .

HUNTLEY: Right, was it during the demonstrations or before the demonstrations of '63?

MCKINSTRY: Well, I think what happened with me doing the clerical work since grade eight.

HUNTLEY: Oh, ok.

MCKINSTRY: I was there, and I was aware a lot of times of things that would be going on. Plus, I worked in the summer. When school was out I would go there and 00:24:00stay all day in the summer, answer the phones and do different things. So, I became aware of people coming in and out of our church. I became aware of things that were being planned, the meetings, the speeches. It was commonplace to see some of these people come through. So, I became very accustomed and very comfortable with talking with these people. I just found it inspiring.

You know I really liked being around them. Again, it appeared that they had a message, a higher goal. My dad's message was education which was the same message we got in school. Of course, most students don't see the importance of that quite the way they should at that age. Maybe it was because of what we could feel when you went to these meetings and they sang the songs and they gave the speeches and even gave you the opportunity to stand and say or ask questions 00:25:00if you needed to. It made you feel part of it. The singing was just motivational. It just made you ready to do something.

HUNTLEY: So, you were there. Were your brothers involved at the same level that you were or any of your siblings? What about your parents, were they involved?

MCKINSTRY: My two younger brothers were in the church when it was bombed and aside from that I may have been the lone ranger as far as . . . I was always told that I was the stubborn one in the house. I was the one that had a mind of their own.

HUNTLEY: You attended the mass meetings?

MCKINSTRY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: How would you describe a mass meeting?

MCKINSTRY: Well, they were always very crowded, always a lot of people there. I don't remember, when I say people more people adults than students, but I just remember that there were always a lot of people. I remember quite a few students, but I don't remember numbers. I remember that they would start with 00:26:00usually a song of some sort. Then we would get a prayer. I had an occasion to hear Dr. King speak many times. I had an occasion to hear Jessie Jackson to speak. Bevil out of Nashville, I think.

And a couple of other people that I can't put a name with their face right now. Rev. Abernathy, I remember him being present. Dr. King was usually saved for last. The younger speakers, Bevil and Jackson, sort of helped kind of get people in and grouped. Them along with some of the females that really had nice voices would start the singing and kind of get people revved up and ready to receive whatever he had to say. Then we kind of got an instructional pep talk. I remember hearing things like if you have anything on your person, even a finger nail file, a pencil, they would pass these huge wastebaskets and tell you to 00:27:00drop anything like that in so that there would be no perception that you were attempting to take anyone.

HUNTLEY: This is prior to . . .

MCKINSTRY: Prior to the marches. When they were convinced and they would even come back a second time and say, now we have to trust you on your honor but now make sure that you've given us anything that you have in your pocket. At that time it was common for the high school boys to have a little pocket knife. So, usually on the second go around you would still pick up a few more things in that big wastebasket.

HUNTLEY: How did you get back and forth between the church and the meetings in the evenings?

MCKINSTRY: Now where I lived, where my mom still lives, the church is probably seven or eight minutes. My mom dropped me off a lot. Primarily again because I was working at the church. There were also several people from my church, Rev. Oden who was the assistant pastor for a long time, Rev. Milton Stollenwerck who 00:28:00was over there in that neighborhood for different occasions, so I was always kind of hauling around with somebody too.

On the street behind me deacon Finch, Mr. Lowe came by a couple of times and got me. I would find rides with people when she wasn't available to take me. We had initially just one car in my family. When my dad worked a second job at night she was there without a car. As long as I told her that Rev. Oden or one of these people were picking me up she didn't have a problem with it. So, if she wasn't dropping me off, I was riding with someone like that.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember the first demonstration that you took part in? The first mass demonstration.

MCKINSTRY: I remember the first one where we walked from Parker High School and we didn't get very far. We got to 8th Avenue, there used to be an Atlantic Mill's Thrift Center there and we were stopped at that point and told that we 00:29:00could not go any further. We were ordered to disperse. They had the fog horns. We sort of scattered. We all ended up at the church, but we sort of scattered.

The goal was city hall. There were a couple of times when the goal was for everybody to end up at city hall to have a mass rally but I know there were at least two occasions where we didn't. I don't ever remember getting to city hall. The point, I guess what I call the climax or the ultimate march for me was the one that ended in Kelly Ingram Park on the occasion where we got as far as the park. They had brought out the little White tanks . . .

HUNTLEY: Before you talk about that though, tell me how did you amass the people, I mean the students at Parker. When you left Parker, how did all of that transpire?

MCKINSTRY: We were giving instruction, or it was agreed at the rallies that were 00:30:00held at the church that someone would come to the school when it was time for the students to leave. They gave us an approximate time and it seems to me that they may have said 11:00, roughly 11:00-11:30. It seems that the point where we did see someone out waiting saying it's time to go was around 11:00 or 11:15 or so. Parker had a gate entrance to the street and the gate had a chain, but it was enough of a gap in between that gate that you could squeeze through it with no problem. So, when we got the single that it was time to go most of us just squeezed through the gate. However, there were a lot of students that walked out the front doors and many teachers just did not see them. I don't know if Mr. Johnson saw them but he didn't indicate that he had seen them. So, we were ready. We were waiting for a sign or a person to let us know when it was time 00:31:00and we got the single.

HUNTLEY: Now you were a sophomore or a junior?

MCKINSTRY: I was a sophomore.

HUNTLEY: You were a good student.

MCKINSTRY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Were there any questions about, by anybody, about you being involved because that could in fact impact upon your studies? Did that ever come up? Was that ever an issue?

MCKINSTRY: As far as the school?

HUNTLEY: As far as the school was concerned, teachers or your parents?

MCKINSTRY: I was pretty much a straight "A" student. When I graduated from Parker High School there were 437 children in my graduating class, and I was number seven out of 437. I loved school, loved to study, loved to read and actually found this, I guess this was . . . I always had, I can't exactly 00:32:00describe it, but I always had some type of inner calling. I was just a person who responded to unkindness, not necessarily on this scale, but anytime I saw things that I didn't think were all right or were unkind I would say something. So, this type of movement appealed to something that was already there.

I think I had . . . When I was a young girl I used to spend summers with my grandfather who was a minister in Clanton. He and my grandmother traveled around all summer two weeks at every church there to do vacation bible school. I sort of helped assisting in organizing the programs and the bible school and I think I already had a sense of a missionary type attitude. I had a lot of confidence because they allowed me to speak for myself and to just represent myself and to represent them. When I was at the church having been the secretary that long I 00:33:00was also allowed to put in positions of authority, you know at the church. I represented us on many occasions on trips away from the church. In Oklahoma, New York and different Baptist conventions.

There was just a type of confidence that came from talking publicly to the church people. I'm sure there were occasions that what I said may not have been the best, but they never told you. They always made you feel that it was very special what you had done. I think my grandfather was one of the first people that convinced me, probably that was his job as a grandfather, but he just always made me feel that I was special. That I always needed to speak up if I didn't agree with something. They gave me freedom to do that. My parents actually gave us the freedom if we didn't agree with what they said. It didn't mean that they would change.

HUNTLEY: So, you were the most outgoing of your siblings?

MCKINSTRY: I think so.

HUNTLEY: Tell me a little about the occurrence of the demonstration downtown in 00:34:00Kelly Ingram Park.

MCKINSTRY: That was my last demonstration. On the day that we marched to the park that was the . . . I think we still came; we always took that 8th Avenue route. I'm trying to remember; I think it was 14th Street where we turned right. We had a route. They had mapped out a route for us. We, of all the things that they had told us in the church, these motivational speeches and do this and don't do this. They had not told us about water hoses, but they had told us about dogs.

If the policeman attempts to do this with the dogs, what are you going to do. They would even have little role plays where you could see what to do and what not to do. They said if a policeman spits on you or if he slaps you. This is how 00:35:00you respond to that. They didn't talk about the tanks. They didn't talk about the water hoses. I suspect that maybe those things were a surprise on the day that we marched. That's what I was thinking, later, well, they didn't tell us about this maybe they didn't know. The water hoses hurt a lot.

HUNTLEY: You were actually hit with one?

MCKINSTRY: I was hit with the water hose on this side running from the water. I had a sweater, a navy-blue sweater on. I never will forget; it tore a big hole in my sweater and sort of just swiped part of my hair off on that side. I just remember the sting and the pain on my face. I had never been hit with a whip but somehow I [inaudible]. It was very painful, and you couldn't escape. There were a few points where we were trying to stand up and hold on to a wall, those buildings that were there at the time. It was just a terrific pain from the 00:36:00force which I later learned it was something like 100 pounds of force per minute. That was the point at which I started rethinking do I really want to be a part of this or can I . . . do I have what it takes to continue on this level. I think I made the decision then perhaps that I would offer my contributions in another way. That I would assist in some other ways. I honestly was afraid of the dogs. Did not like being wet up. I felt very disrespected when I was wet up with the water and my hair. We were just marching you know.

HUNTLEY: Did you go back to the church after that happened? Were you arrested?

MCKINSTRY: I was not arrested, no. I was not one of those that was arrested. I 00:37:00went back to the church briefly. I remember going in the lady's room to just sort of try to dry off a little bit. I ended up getting a ride with someone to get home. When my mom walked in the door she knew something was different, but she didn't know what I had done. I explained to her where I had been and what I had done. At that point I was actually proud of what I had done but I had some question marks there about the tactics that they were using because I think I felt that you could actually be hurt. Serious things could happen with what they were doing.

HUNTLEY: You had not thought about that prior to then?

MCKINSTRY: Right and she made my daddy aware of it and he was very angry that I had done this.

HUNTLEY: With you?

MCKINSTRY: He was angry with me. He instructed me not to go back. He just talked about these people were crazy. You might expect anything to happen. They would 00:38:00stop at nothing to keep things the way they were. Just felt like that if there was going to be change, you know, let somebody else make the change, you stay out of it. That's never been my way.

HUNTLEY: Were you ever involved in demonstrations again after that?

MCKINSTRY: Not marching, no.

HUNTLEY: This of course what had happened, they had given out of bodies in effect and the children were really the saving grace of the movement. Did you have any concept of that at the time? That the children were actually saving the movement and the whole idea of filling up jails. What that meant? Did you ever have a real concept of that at that particular point?

MCKINSTRY: I don't think I understood the real significance of why they were using the students. I like to refer to us as bearable commodities for them at that time. I came to know later the rationale behind why they used us. I have to say in terms of my participation I felt very much a part of what was going on. I felt that I was needed. I felt when I heard what they had to say, I responded to that spiritually. I agreed spiritually with what they were trying to do and was glad that I could be a part of it. So, I think most of the children felt that this was a worthy cause. This was something that we needed to do, that we wanted to part of, and we had confidence in the leadership.

We had confidence in Dr. King and James Bevil and the ones that spoke. They were very charismatic, but they were also very articulate. They were very specific. 00:40:00When you would see them, they would shake your hand, young man, young lady, give you a hug, we appreciate the fact that you are here. And we felt very much included. I did and I think most of the students did. I think most of us probably didn't have the real sense of how valuable we were. We felt good that we could make a contribution in this small way. They needed numbers and we helped them with the numbers.

HUNTLEY: You were never arrested, right?

MCKINSTRY: No.

HUNTLEY: When you returned to school what was the reception like?

MCKINSTRY: There was a lot of hugging and laughing and talking about what had happened. Describing and jokes about how someone's hair looked after they had gotten wet. And who they saw running in this direction. There were a couple of students that I knew that went to jail that were out the next day. There were others that stayed in jail for four or five days. So, like the next day or two 00:41:00we heard accounts from those students of what it was like. For the most part it was funny.

Yeah, they served us these peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. They were fingerprinted and they went on to tell they were carried away in a wagon and being fingerprinted and so forth. The accounts that came from the students that stayed four or five days were not quite as comical. The ladies had a lot of stories of being mistreated. Not abused necessarily but just mistreated. I think they were taken out to Fair Park and crowded into this area. I remember several of the ladies. In fact, one lady gave this account when the Institute first opened and we did this program across the street.

One lady gave this account of needing personal articles, she was there four or five days, and no one attended to her needs. She felt very deprived, disrespected. I mean you know. She cried when she gave this account, and this is 00:42:00like 20 to 25 years later. So, I know it must have really affected her. But, I think the guys were able to tough it out a little better than the girls and ladies were.

HUNTLEY: Were there any discussions of this in classrooms after you returned to school?

MCKINSTRY: The discussions that we had were about the food, there were jokes about the food.

HUNTLEY: In the classroom? With the teacher?

MCKINSTRY: Not with the teacher just talking among the students. I don't remember us actually having any discussions with our teachers about what went on. I think the teachers kind of had to know and not know. I think they were proud of us, but they had a business as usual type attitude. We did a lot of talking at lunch time or sometime we had them at study periods when the teacher was not in the room. We would discuss it among ourselves in the library and just sort of compare notes on what had happened to different people.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember what you were doing when the march on Washington took place?

MCKINSTRY: Watching it on television.

HUNTLEY: Did you have any desire to go? Or was that an option at the time?

MCKINSTRY: I don't know of any way that I could have gotten permission or whatever to go to Washington. I really don't. I would have loved to have gone. I sat glued to my set. Of course, like everyone else thought that Dr. King's speech was marvelous and wonderful. It was just moving. I was so proud of us as a group of people when I saw how we assembled there. I looked at the people that were representing us, representing me. I listened to them and I was just very, very proud.

You know I guess I've always had that sense of pride because all of the teachers 00:44:00I had in elementary school were wonderful and all of my high school teachers were wonderful. So, where was this inferiority that I kept hearing about. That we couldn't make the grade. That we couldn't perform as well as they could. I could never find what they were talking about. I kept searching for what they were talking about. I was just extremely proud. I remember that. Still felt very committed even though I was in front of the television set.

HUNTLEY: September 15, 1963. Tell me what that morning was like. You're at home and getting ready to go to church. Tell me what do you remember about what took place just prior to the fiasco.

MCKINSTRY: Ok, I always left home very early. My dad worked his second job on Sunday so he would drop us off as he went to work. My sister, normally I took my 00:45:00sister to Sunday School with me and my two younger brothers. She wouldn't let me comb her hair that morning. I kind of didn't feel like I didn't want to take her anyway. So, I told my mother, "She won't let me comb her hair." She said, "Ok, just go on without her." So, I took my brothers and my dad dropped us off. He was headed toward Mountain Brook.

I assumed my duties as secretary. I was actually, I had come through the downstairs area to pass out the cards, the attendance cards and the little envelopes where you record your money. I had done that and was heading back up the stairs, saw the girls in the bathroom sort of laughing and talking and putting on their robes. They were excited. Actually, everybody was in Sunday School class, which is probably where they should have been, but they were excited. So, I walked up the steps. We had two sets of steps, well, we still do. 00:46:00Then walked up the second set of steps and had stepped out before I stepped out into the sanctuary.

We used to have the church office right there on the right. You know it used to be Rev. Hamlin's study but at that time it was the actual church office. The phone rang and I answered the phone, and someone said, "Two minutes." Rev. Cross had not made us aware, maybe he made some of the adults aware, but he had not made a general announcement to the church that we had bomb threats. I didn't know, didn't even think about what this might mean.

HUNTLEY: What was your response when he said two minutes?

MCKINSTRY: Well, he hung up. They said that and then click.

HUNTLEY: Then what did you do?

MCKINSTRY: I was just standing there and kind of thought about it. Hung the phone up and stepped out into the sanctuary because I had three or four more classes that I needed to give these cards to. As soon as I stepped out in the sanctuary, it wasn't two minutes it was probably more like five seconds. The 00:47:00time it takes to walk from that office, maybe five or six seconds. Something happened at that time, I didn't know that the church had been bombed. I felt, what I heard at first sounded like a rumble, like thunder.

I remember thinking rain, it immediately came to my mind. As soon as I thought rain all of the windows started shattering, glass came pouring in and when that happened I heard screams all upstairs, screams. Then somebody said, "Get on the floor." We all got on the floor and was very quiet for what seems like several minutes, but it was probably on twenty or thirty seconds. Then we heard footsteps at that point somebody had gotten up and started running. Whoever it was everybody else followed. So, I came out of the church through the back.

HUNTLEY: So, you came out of the church after getting up off of the floor?

MCKINSTRY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Did you walk? Did you run?

MCKINSTRY: I ran.

HUNTLEY: To the back?

MCKINSTRY: To the back of the church and we went out through those doors where you normally enter on Sunday for the 11:00 service. Came down the steps and my first thoughts immediately were to find my two younger brothers. I could see that something had happened. I think I learned in that first minute or two that I was out there that our church had been bombed. Everybody was looking for somebody, I think. I was looking for my two younger brothers and couldn't find them. They were in the Sunday School classes downstairs. So, I went back downstairs, and I remember going into the boy's bathroom first.

Because I looked in all of the classrooms and I couldn't find them. I went in the boy's bathroom and I didn't see them in there. Then I started in the girl's bathroom and I said, "Well, if they went to the bathroom they probably wouldn't be in here." But then they might because they were little boys. They were like seven and five. So maybe they ran this way or maybe they just didn't know where to go. So, I spent, this is the part I don't like talking about too much, but I spent a lot of time in the basement looking for them.

HUNTLEY: There were other people looking for other folks as well?

MCKINSTRY: Yes. I never found them. I can tell you I spent a lot of time in that basement, but my baby brother was found on 8th Avenue. He had jumped out one of those side windows when it broke and just started running. I guess with no real 00:50:00sense of where he was running just knowing that he needed to get out of there. He just ran. My mom, someone called her at home to tell her that they had bombed the church. When she was heading to the church to check on us was when she encountered my baby brother. She was coming and he was coming and that's when she found him. My dad found my oldest brother downtown. I guess a lot of kids just ran, they just scattered.

HUNTLEY: Now your father was headed to . . .

MCKINSTRY: To Mountain Brook. He worked at the Birmingham Country Club which was a club you can still attend today. I have a membership in but he was a waiter there. He heard the explosion. He said, he had the radio on, my dad was a great listener of talk shows even back then. Whoever he was listening to announced within the next minute or two that the church had been bombed. He said he turned around. He never got to work, he turned around and came right back. He was also 00:51:00looking for us.

He encountered my seven-year-old brother somewhere . . . by the time my dad had gotten there they had blocked off a big portion of the area that surrounded the church. So, somewhere on the boundaries of trying to get pass those boundaries my dad encountered my brother. He took his hand and came within the boundaries looking for my other brother and myself. He found me but my mom found my other brother at another point.

HUNTLEY: At what point did you know that the children had died?

MCKINSTRY: I knew that there were people hurt. I didn't at first because there was a guy outside saying that there were people hurt inside. I had been in there looking for my brothers, but I didn't see anybody. So, I remember thinking that 00:52:00he was just trying to create a little more excitement or something. I was angry because I felt like, why is he saying this. Then I got upset because I thought, well, did he see my brothers and I didn't. So, I kept going back. At that point I still didn't know where they were. You know, I spent a lot of times going back to that girl's bathroom cause I just kept thinking.

Maybe because the boy's bathroom was not shattered. You could actually go in there. You could tell that there was damage, but you could actually walk around and see that. Ok, here is the hand bowl and here is the toilet and whatever and obviously no one is here. But in the case of the girl's bathroom you couldn't see that. You didn't know what you were looking at, but you couldn't see that they were there or that they weren't there or that no one was hurt. I was at 00:53:00home. By the time that I was home I remember I had been home about an hour and [inaudible] Robinson called our house. She asked me did I see Carol. I said, "No." She asked to speak with my mom and just asked if she had seen her. She said, "No." She said, "Well, maybe my Carol is alright. Your Carol is at home so maybe my Carol is alright too."

HUNTLEY: Did you know all four girls?

MCKINSTRY: Yes. Cynthia Westin and were in a book social club together, the Cavalettes. There was a male social club called the Cavaliers. We, they adopted us or something and we came up with the name Cavalettes. It was just something where we had parties at each other's homes. We had purchased Tee-Shirts with our names and the club, a big "C" on it. We had purchased hats and so forth. In 00:54:00fact, we made those purchases, we ordered those things, John Singletons when it was still opened, right before the church was bombed. Those items that she had ordered we took to her mother's house after, probably about two weeks after the church was bombed.

Denise I knew well, didn't spend a lot of time with her, she was a lot younger than I was, but I knew her. I always thought she was a happy delightful child; you know around the church. She was very pleasant to be around. Addie was very quiet. Addie was in my Sunday School class. I think, I always think of them. Earlier you asked a question about preferential treatment. I think a lot of how a person feels or what they think they see is how they feel about themselves. I always felt like Addie was one of those persons. She was one that didn't feel 00:55:00very good about herself.

She was not a very attractive girl, but she was very quiet, very manner able. In our Sunday School class, she didn't have a lot to say. We knew that there was a large family of them, but they would come in and we all talked and played together but I think there was probably more trouble in her than we knew at that time. I say that based on conversations I had with her sister, her oldest sister, June. I think with a lot of people that weren't totally comfortable with themselves that there may have been a perception and I think there was definitely that perception with them.

HUNTLEY: You being the secretary in the church, how did this event impact upon you going back into the church? Not just for services but for whatever else you 00:56:00may have been doing.

MCKINSTRY: Initially I was very hurt. I was shocked. I was afraid.

HUNTLEY: Were you actually afraid to go to the church?

MCKINSTRY: I was afraid and the reason I was afraid was earlier that year the Cruel's house had been bombed. That house had destroyed the front, pretty much the foundation in front of our house. I had two, I had four brothers, we had two sets of bunkbeds. The boys that were sleeping on the top were actually thrown out of those beds when that house was bombed. This was a bomb that went off at about 3:00 in the morning. I can't explain to you what it does to you to be awaken that time of morning. We heard this terrible, terrible noise. There was a 00:57:00building, a big cement building, J. M. Tull on the street behind us. My mother said, the policeman said, that the bomb exploded hit the building and bounced back which is why we had so much damage. When the bomb exploded it was like everything lit up. It was like daylight for what seemed like thirty seconds. It was probably about five seconds. Then it went Black again and then you heard screaming. People coming out of their homes. I could hear Ms. Cruel inside my home. I could hear her screaming coming out of her home.

Mr. Cruel didn't wake up. He wasn't hurt but he didn't wake up. She was trying to wake him up from the outside, hollering his name. My younger brother just developed a tremendous nervous condition having been thrown out of his bed like that. So when this church explosion occurred I think I decided it was probably 00:58:00just a matter of time, you know. That had such an impact both of those and I think I decided that I was probably going, sooner or later I was going to be killed with one of these bombs. I think it had a lot of effects on me. I was afraid, I was frightened. Not afraid to be part of things or for what I had done but it seemed there was no control. There was no way to stop what they were doing. There was no way to protect yourself.

HUNTLEY: You felt helpless in other words?

MCKINSTRY: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Just in your everyday life this is what you viewed. What you're describing is really a helplessness that you had no control even over yourself because of the exterior forces.

MCKINSTRY: Exactly. That's exactly what I felt. I was so withdrawn after that 00:59:00church bombing I did not attend the funeral of the four girls. I remember Ms. Robinson calling. They were asking for some of us to be flower bearers at the funerals. I told my mom, "Please, don't make me go." I thought that I would probably, I'm not sure what I would see. I knew I was really hurting inside and grieving that my friends were gone. I just did not want to be, I didn't want to see them, I didn't want to be there, part of that. She kept trying to encourage me to go. Finally, the day of the funeral she called and said, "Well, I think I'll let her stay here." I didn't attend the funerals. I just didn't.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember when you went back to school? What was the atmosphere like?

MCKINSTRY: Very somber. We had teachers that did allow us. You asked that question earlier and I said no. I thought about Ralph Joseph who was a math teacher at that time that I had. I remember that he allowed us and Mr. Winston, can't think of his first name. I remember that they asked a few questions and listened to what we had to say. It was good, it felt good to hear.

HUNTLEY: Very therapeutic?

MCKINSTRY: Right, very therapeutic. I remember even when the President was killed that year that Mr. Joseph was the one, I was in his class when he made the announcement that it was official that the school had gotten the word that the President had been shot. He walked around the classroom for a little bit [inaudible] and then he came back up front and closed the textbook. A few 01:01:00students were crying, and he allowed us to talk then, just to say what was on our mind. It was difficult. That was another one of those situations where you felt that you had no control over what might happen tomorrow, or did it already happen today.

We didn't even have a sense of two things, today when things like this happen you bring in all the therapists and psychologists and students get a chance to talk and really get it out of their system. There was no sense of that nor was there any sense of justice. These things have happened it was accepted, and it may happen to you tomorrow. No one was in jail and nobody even mentioned that no one was in jail. So, it was almost as if it was just a type of predestination that you couldn't do anything about. I think that may have worried me more than a lot of other things.

HUNTLEY: You seem to have been a person that was always in control of yourself. 01:02:00And you had lost that and of course that would be traumatic particularly on the circumstances.

MCKINSTRY: It shook my coincidence. I was always a very confident person. When I graduated from Parker and went to school, it was like a refreshing change. A wonderful college in [inaudible]. Among the students and professors and we got a chance to talk and occasionally I would have flashbacks and would have troubling moments. I took those opportunities to write. I have a big book of stuff that I would write periodically. I think the writing was therapeutic too. I think it was a way to put on paper some of the pain that I felt. When I read some of that stuff now I almost can't stand to read it because I can see that it was really painful what I was feeling. I would like to read those things now about myself.

HUNTLEY: Have you ever thought of publishing them?

MCKINSTRY: No. I've been asked to.

HUNTLEY: Will you ever?

MCKINSTRY: You know, I don't know. Even as recently as a couple of weeks ago I was approached about putting some of this information in a book form. There are a lot of things that I haven't shared with you that happened during my childhood that don't necessarily relate to this, but they are things that helped or shaped me into what I am today. Whatever that is. Poetry was a big portion of it. Poetry, writings, whatever it was just my way of getting out of my system. We didn't have . . . You know I had people that I could talk to but if they weren't people that had been part of that they really didn't understand what you were trying to say. I mean they couldn't relate to it. A lot of the students that I went to school with lived in California and New York. Judge Wade McKree had 01:04:00daughters there. So, a lot of them either lived in a very protective environment or they lived in big cities where the racism wasn't quite as.

HUNTLEY: The northern cities.

MCKINSTRY: Northern cities were racism wasn't quite as blatant as it was down South. A lot of it I think I sorted out in my head and tossed it around and came up with my own deductions and theories. Eventually I was able to, I think to put it in perspective. I think once I was really able to grab hold of it and straighten myself up it was like, ok, now I see what's what.

HUNTLEY: Did you enjoy Fisk as much as you did Parker?

MCKINSTRY: I loved Fisk. Yes, I told you there's not many environments that I don't enjoy but the wonderful environment of [inaudible]. We had, it's my first 01:05:00experience with White instructors, and they were very congenial, just part of the campus. You know everybody was in jeans and sweatshirts or whatever. There were occasions when we dressed differently but most part there was a lot of learning about different cultures and what Blacks in other cities were doing.

A lot of Black history taught during that time. Dante and John [inaudible] were some of the artists in residents during the time that I was there. I think there were a couple of other names you would probably recognize. Regular visitors to my campus were people like Sydney Poiter, Harry Belafonte, the guy that was married to [inaudible]. We had an African group that came over that brought 01:06:00African dancers that actually danced in their native outfits.

HUNTLEY: [inaudible]

MCKINSTRY: This was a constant part of the life there. Everybody that came had a very positive message, a very motivational message and it was like hey, I know you guys are here learning and getting ready to step out in the world and we're waiting on you. We need some more help out here. They were very, very motivational. That's the one thing, I think, I didn't see during that era Blacks bickering among themselves. I didn't see Blacks pointing fingers or disagreeing as much with methodologies or your way or mine.

HUNTLEY: That period from '65 to '69 was probably full of the most volatile years of the 20th century because there were a lot of things that were happening. Of course, the civil rights movement had escalated to become more 01:07:00aggressive. The development of the Black Panther Party. You had the various rebellion streets of various cities, Detroit. You had the Black Power Conferences. How did all of that play on your campus at Fisk?

MCKINSTRY: All of that was very [inaudible]. When he came around he was well received. I remember there were sit-ins going on downtown in Nashville and I believe if I remember right Diane Nash Bevel was part of that. By the time that I came to Fisk as a freshman and sophomore not knowing much about Nashville and about . . . I was a little bit more reserved in terms of stepping out in that manner.

During the time I was at Fisk was also when Dr. King was killed. So, I remember 01:08:00that day was real quite over the campus but pretty much we always knew any new person that was involved with the movement or if there was another spoke person or any messages that were out there pretty much came to our campus. We were all very much apart of whatever we could do. If we didn't march we assisted by making signs. I'm trying to think, it seems we donated money even in some cases the little change we had. It wasn't a lot but sometimes we would take up money and send what we had. I remember also across the street from Fisk there were several Black businesses, a bookstore, an oldies quickmart, a cleaners.

And those people we did volunteer work during the summer the demonstrations that were going on in Nashville we came in and assisted as far as helping them stay open if they needed to leave or to just be there to protect, kind of protect things. We were a fairly protective area anyway just because we were a college campus.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after Fisk?

MCKINSTRY: When I left Fisk, I came back to Birmingham. I married my junior year at Fisk. My husband . . .

HUNTLEY: He was at Fisk?

MCKINSTRY: He had graduated from Fisk. He came back, he was in the air force, he came back during the month of January and we married. Then he went back to the air force. By the time I graduated from Fisk we had been married exactly a year and nine months. I was pregnant with my daughter when I graduated. So, she was born, I graduated in May. She stayed with my mother, she was born in September and a couple of months after that he was shipped out to Korea. So, I spent the next year and a half with my mother. I taught school at Carl High School in 01:10:00North Birmingham. I took care of my daughter. When he came back from Korea, he accepted a position, a management position, at Sears and we moved to Florida. We lived in Orlando for about three years. In fact when I moved to Orlando, Walt Disney World had been open two weeks. I have some of the original maps and the $3.50 ticket they used to sell when they first opened and all of the memorabilia there. We used to make a lot of trips to Walt Disney World, we were about 15 minutes from there. We lived there three years.

I taught school there, Old Ridge High School. My second daughter was born there. After three years there he was transferred to Atlanta. So, I spent about two and a half years in Atlanta, and I didn't work. In fact I went out and applied for a job and received a job offer with the Atlanta Board of Education and the day 01:11:00that I came home to tell him about that he was waiting to tell me that he had been transferred again to a little place called Winner Robbins, Georgia. We spent, at that time it had the reputation for being the safest city in the United States.

So, we spent about two years there. While we were there they attempted to transfer him to Chicago. He said, "No, I'm not moving to Chicago. I' ll just look for another job." So, they decided to give him another option and the other option ended up being Birmingham. So, we ended up moving back to Birmingham, that's how we got back here. When we moved back [inaudible].

HUNTLEY: If there was a movement going on today and your children were the age that you were when you participated in the demonstrations. Would you allow them 01:12:00to participate?

MCKINSTRY: I would very much like for my children to be part of any movement that affects us as a race of people. However, I would like to make sure that they have the right perspective on what they're doing, why they're doing it. You know since that time while I do believe that there are very basic freedoms that many of our people are denied or just don't have access to. I have sensed developed just some philosophies of my own. I watch our people in life in their daily activities.

There are a lot of things that we used to be very conscientious about that we are not now. We used to be very prudent with our money and our property and so 01:13:00forth. We became very casual about that and have lost a lot of it. We used to be very conscientious about teaching our children, not just right from wrong, integrity and character. We insisted that they perform at school and we insisted that they represent us in a certain way and a certain manner while they are in public. We have, we somewhere have dropped the ball. We don't insist on a lot of things that we used to. I also have sort of developed the perspective that a lot of the war we fight right now is an economic war. That we can't just do it with marching. A lot of what we do has to be from the perspective that we understand that people don't just treat you right because it's the right thing to do. Or 01:14:00people don't just respect you because it's the right thing to do. We first got to respect ourselves and there's a lot of tapes that we can make on that, but we first have to fully respect ourselves and our families.

One of the ways that I respect my family is that I make sure that my family has a roof over their head and food and clothing, and they go to school and understand what it's about. I attend their meetings. I don't have children this age anymore, but I attend the PTA meetings and I'm part of what's going on and part of the decisions that affect my children. I show my support, my responsibility, I set the right example by doing these things. There are a lot of things that we can do that no one else can control.

Whites don't control how much time you spent with your son. If you play ball with him, take him to the library or just have the father and son walks and 01:15:00talks. Those are things that are within your control. I suspect that, that's where the real confidence and real integrity and character is built. We don't do much of that anymore. I've talked with a lot of children. For example, when we give the town hall meeting over at Birmingham Southern, remember the students that kept asking questions from Homewood?

HUNTLEY: Yes.

MCKINSTRY: Those students have been in contact with me since that program. They wanted someone to talk to. First of all, just to acknowledge that they understood the types of problems that they were having in Homewood. I certainly understood because my children had followed in similar footsteps while they were in school. So, I certainly understood what they were talking about. Now, where do we draw the line.

Your child, sort of your student but you're considered a child, and these are adults that are playing these games with you. So, without going against the wishes of your parents if the parents are involved to that extent. In a lot of cases they appear not to be. So, what kind of advice can I give to young people 01:16:00to keep them motivated to not make them feel that there is something wrong with them, because they recognize the differences being made. They recognize the rights and wrongs of the issues. So, how do we continue to fight and stayed focus but not lose it to emotion while this stuff is going on.

I like to take on those types of struggles. I think the most important investment that we can make is with our children. Whether that be teaching them, I like to teach. I did corporate income taxes for ten years so I . . . all of my two daughters' friends would come around and say, "Mrs. McKinstry, will you do my income tax?" I did income taxes for years and never charged them anything. Then I thought how much better it would be if you can do your own. How good do we feel, the more we can do for ourself the more better we feel, right. So, I started just teaching them and sharing information about finances and stocks and 01:17:00investments. You know, this is your ultimate weapon.

To position yourself in a certain way that you are not beholding to anyone. So, that when you are on this job later, or wherever you are later you don't have to accept less than what you think is due you or less than what your character dictates because you need a check or you have allowed yourself to get in a position where this man is controlling how you eat, buy, etc. So, I like to have those kinds of conversations. I like to take us to an economically and I think that may have been more what Jesse Jackson was focusing on during Martin Luther King's era which probably was a little bit ahead of his time. It's something that I think is very much needed, you know, our children graduate now, and they can't balance a checkbook, have no concept of money and so forth. All of its 01:18:00important. I mean that part of is important.

Hopefully the character and integrity and the stride for academic excellence had been, that foundation has been laid hopefully in grades 1-12. Then somewhere in there those last senior years we focus on the real energy zones. You really have to think about that. So, I have a special interest in finding answers and I try to pass that along. What I also see working in a corporate environment is a new trend now where companies are sourcing or contracting out a lot of employees. So, students will not, employees will not be able to be on the 10, 20, 30-year 01:19:00tenures like our parents did. Which means they also will not be able to give that automatic retirement anymore.

HUNTLEY: I want to thank you for all your time and all your wisdom because you obviously really set a tone that is really going to be important for the 21st Century. Thank you for coming.