Rev. Clyde Jones

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Rev. Clyde Jones for the Birmingham Civil Rights lnstitute's Oral History Project. I am Dr. Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College. Today is June 1, 1995.

Thanks Rev. Jones for coming and being with us today.

JONES: You are very welcome.

HUNTLEY: I just want to start by asking you some general questions about your 00:01:00parents. Where were your parents from?

JONES: My parents were from Hokenville, Georgia, my father rather. And my mother was from a place called Lutherville, Georgia.

HUNTLEY: Lutherville and what was the other?

JONES: Hokenville.

HUNTLEY: Hokenville, Georgia. Were you born in Birmingham?

JONES: Yes. I was born here in Birmingham at the Old Hillman hospital which is now the University Hospital.

HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have older and younger than yourself?

JONES: I have one sister, two sisters rather, younger than I am.

HUNTLEY: So you are the oldest child?

JONES: I am the oldest child, yes.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about your parent's education.

JONES: Well, at the time they had limited education. My mother was a high school graduate and my father attended one year at Morris Brown in Atlanta.

HUNTLEY: What were their occupations?

JONES: Well, my father was a shipping clerk and my mother was a restaurant owner.

HUNTLEY: She owned a restaurant?

JONES: She owned a restaurant.

HUNTLEY: Where was your restaurant located?

JONES: It was located in a predominately Black section of North Birmingham on 26th Avenue about 24th Street I believe it was.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about your education. Where did you start elementary school?

JONES: I attended Lincoln Elementary School and I attended Parker High School and also lmmaculata High School and I had a three years at Howard University and I also attended Emory School of Divinity which is in Atlanta.

HUNTLEY: You attended both Parker and lmmaculata?

JONES: That is correct.

HUNTLEY: Where did you graduate from?

JONES: Immaculata High School.

HUNTLEY: Why did you leave Parker to go to lmmaculata?

JONES: Well, at the time, the education system at lmmaculata was a little bit better than Parker because we had a chance, you know, more or less, learn things like Latin and several foreign languages as opposed to Parker which only had Spanish.

HUNTLEY: So you went for the languages. What did you do after high school?

JONES: Well, after high school, I went into the U. S. Coast Guard.

HUNTLEY: Tell me, just let me back up just a bit. What do you remember most about Parker as a student?

JONES: Well, I remember the football team. They had an excellent football team. As amatter of fact, at that particular time, it was the top team in the state·. And I also remember a lot of the teachers, you know, how concerned they was, you know about the students anyway. They had a good relationship with the students.

HUNTLEY: Were you at Parker the same time Buck Buchanan was there or were you just a little bit ahead of Buck?

JONES: I think I was a little bit ahead of him. And I had an opportunity to meet his parents, you know, at a later date they were a member of Enon United Methodist Church, where I pastored both his father and mother. But I never did get a chance to meet him per se.

HUNTLEY: How would you compare your experience at Parker versus that at lmmaculata?

JONES: Well, it's more discipline at lmmaculata. Of course, at that time they had discipline at Parker, too because they had the paddling system.

HUNTLEY: Who was the principal at lmmaculata?

JONES: Howard Johnson.

HUNTLEY: So you had the same kind of discipline at both places?

JONES: Right. But the only difference is at lmmaculata they would expel you and they would more or less put the fear of the Word of God into you. Because it was 00:05:00more or less, you know, religiously indoctrinated since it was a religious school.

HUNTLEY: Well, did you then, after you graduated from lmmaculata did you go right into the military?

JONES: I went right into the Coast Guard.

HUNTLEY: How did you happen to go into the Coast Guard?

JONES: Well, at that particular time, it was real hard and I thought that would be a way out to get education in view of the fact that they had this GI Bill to write, where it is, you know, you enter the service, you could almost get a complete college education and beyond if you went into the service. So it was a way for me at that particular time. Because with the economical status of my parents, you know, I couldn't have the opportunity probably to go to college.

HUNTLEY: Well, why the Coast Guard rather than the Army or the Navy?

JONES: Well, the Coast Guard is a part of the armed service during the war and as a matter of fact it stayed during the peace time, its under the Treasury Department. But I had an opportunity to serve aboard a U. S. John Gordon which I made about eight trips across the Atlantic and back. You know, bringing troops. To carry troops back and forth. And I also had an opportunity to serve on a patrol Coast Guard boat down in the Caribbean and other places.

HUNTLEY: So did you get that opportunity based upon your experience in high school? Did somebody direct you to the Coast Guard?

JONES: No. Myself and another friend, we were walking down 5th Avenue. At that time the Coast Guard station was in the federal post office building and we saw this sign, "We Want You." And I was teasing with my buddy, I said, "Well, this 00:07:00is us, let's go in and see about it." So we went in and, of course , really you're supposed to be eighteen but I persuaded my parents to sign for me in order to go in which they reluctantly did. But we went on in anyway.

HUNTLEY: And so how long did you spend in the Coast Guard?

JONES: We spent about three years.

HUNTLEY: Three years. And what did you do after you were discharged?

JONES: Well, we went on. Like I said I wanted to go to college but I came about in a peculiar type way I met this girl, she was attending Howard. And she enticed me to come to Howard, you know, in Washington.

HUNTLEY: So is that the girl that you married eventually?

JONES: No. Eventually, everything seemed to break down after I got there. You 00:08:00know, we stayed friends for about six or seven months and after that, the garden was so beautiful, I couldn't see for looking.

HUNTLEY: So you were there for three years? What were you pursuing?

JONES: Well, I was majoring in political science and I had a minor in psychology.

HUNTLEY: What was D. C. like?

JONES: Well, D.C. was calm at that particular time. You didn't have all these different drug warfare like you have now. And it was relatively calm. It was peaceful. You could walk down Georgia Avenue without any type of fear of being mugged or robbed. And it was a beautiful place at that time to live.

HUNTLEY: Did you live on campus?

JONES: I lived on campus, yes.

HUNTLEY: And after you left Howard, where did you go?

JONES: I went to New York. There I got involved, at the National Guard there and 00:09:00also went to, had one year of law school at New York School of Law, too.

HUNTLEY: So then how long were you in New York?

JONES: I was there about, just a little over a year. Just a little over a year until the Korean War broke out and I went to Korea.

HUNTLEY: Did you go back into the Coast Guard?

JONES: I didn't go back into the Coast Guard, I went into the Army.

HUNTLEY: How long were you in the Army this time?

JONES: Well, I stayed in there approximately about four years.

HUNTLEY: So when did you come out?

JONES: I came out somewhere around the neighborhood of '56 or '57.

HUNTLEY: Did you return to Birmingham?

JONES: I did, yes.

HUNTLEY: Now you went to Emory, right?

JONES :Yes. That was at a much later date. That was in the 70s when I went to Emory.

HUNTLEY: So what did you do when you came back to Birmingham?

JONES: Well, I had various, jobs. I did substitute teaching and I worked as a shipping clerk, where my father worked and in the meantime I married and I had a family to support.

HUNTLEY: So you are really returning to Birmingham at a time when the NAACP is probably the most active civil rights organization?

JONES: That is correct.

HUNTLEY: Were you involved with them at all?

JONES: Yes. I have always been a member of the NAACP. And when the Southern Christian Movement came out I became involved with them through Rev. Shuttlesworth.

HUNTLEY: Right. What did you actually do as a result of your membership with the NAACP?

JONES: Well, really the NAACP was more or less involved in litigations. At the particular time it wasn't like marches, per se until the Southern Christian.

HUNTLEY: What about voter registrations?

JONES: Voter registration that was a prime fact. That was one of the main problems we had at a particular time. Black folk were denied the right to vote and they had to take an oral examination and they had them poll taxes and different other things to discourage them from voting. So the main thrust of the NAACP was, voter registration.

HUNTLEY: In 1956 the State of Alabama outlawed the NAACP from operating in the State of Alabama. Were you actively involved at that time?

JONES: Yes, sir.

HUNTLEY: And we know as a result of that, the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights was organized. Were you one of the charter members of the organization of the Alabama Christian Movement?

JONES: Well, I wouldn't say a charter member. But I was one of the first, in the particular group that really, signed up for it.

HUNTLEY: That got the Movement going?

JONES: Yes. I remember the day that I was over to Rev. Shuttlesworth office when he was pastoring over in North Birmingham and I don't think he had met, Dr. Martin Luther King at that particular time. He said, "I got a letter here from Dr. King, about, the it was two separate groups. Actually there was a Montgomery 00:13:00faction and the Birmingham faction about them merging with each.

HUNTLEY: The MIA from the Montgomery and the Alabama Christian Movement?

JONES: Right.

HUNTLEY: And eventually started the SCLC in '57?

JONES: Right.

HUNTLEY: You were one of the litigants in a case against the police department?

JONES: That is correct.

HUNTLEY: Can you sort of explain what that was about?

JONES: It was planned that Rev. Shuttlesworth and Rev. Gardner and Rev. Alford and several more ministers at that particular time. We had set up a time to go to the Jefferson County Personnel Board to apply for the police department. We had agreed that we would go through with it. And we went and I never would 00:14:00forget. It was kind of hot. I forgot what month it was in, but anyway it was relatively hot at that particular time and we went there, so it was TV people there. Channel 13 and I believe Channel 6. So they gave us the application, to fill out and so, we took the application back home and filled it out and sent it back in and then I received a letter from the Jefferson County Personnel Board that we wasn't qualified. Both Johnson and myself did.

HUNTLEY: Who was the other person?

JONES: George Johnson, Rev. Johnson now. That we wasn't qualified. So I began and looked at my expertise within the police field. I had been in charge of the 00:15:00investigation section of the military, 212 military police in Inchon, Korea at the age of about 22. And I also served with the 519 military police group when they integrated, you know that particular unit. And I was in the first CID criminal investigation division down at Ft. Goins, Georgia. And I said, "Something has got to be wrong." And I saw lessor White persons were on duty with little or no education and so I knew then there was something wrong somewhere.

HUNTLEY: Did you make the determination that you wanted to be a member of the police department or were you drafted by Shuttlesworth and the Movement?

JONES: Well, we discussed it. They wanted me to be a test case to be frank about 00:16:00it. To see about getting them. Because all the other surrounding cities had it and while I am on that particular note I had already passed the test in Montgomery, police test in Montgomery and I had passed it with a high score. About 99 out of a 100 and also I had passed the test for the Washington police department, Washington D. C. police department and I also made 99.

HUNTLEY: But you decided not to take it?

JONES: Yes. I was doing it more or less, to make a test of the system.

HUNTLEY: Why would you take it in Montgomery? Did you live in Montgomery?

JONES: No. I did it out of self-satisfaction. You know to see what it was about. To test my knowledge.

HUNTLEY: Was this prior to your taking it in Birmingham?

JONES: That is correct, yes.I remember Captain Gant in Montgomery. He told me he said, "Well, we want you to stay on with us if you decide to come aboard." But I 00:17:00said, "I don't know whether they are going to start hiring them in Birmingham pretty soon." And at that particular time it was so many loop holes in the Montgomery police department. They had the Blacks working at night like from 11 at night to 7 in the morning. And they could only arrest Blacks and they could only hold a White person until a White officer arrived, but you could see a White person committing a felony crime, you just couldn't go over and apprehend him regardless of what he was doing under that type of system.

HUNTLEY: You would simply have to wait until a White officer arrived?

JONES: That is correct. And like one of my friends told me that, you know, that got on. He said that one night some White guys was robbing a service station and they parked on the other side and said the only thing that they could do was 00:18:00stand and look at that, and they got away. They radioed in and the lieutenant came in there and said, "What did y'all do, just stand there and look?" And they said, "That's the only thing we could do, we couldn't arrest them, they was White and that was our instructions."

HUNTLEY: But there were Black policemen they just didn't have the authority?

JONES: That's right. Then they had them going in at late hours, midnight hours to almost early morning.

HUNTLEY: So as a result of you having made very high marks in both Washington, D. C., and Montgomery, you decided then to take the test in Birmingham? And you wanted the job in Birmingham?

JONES: Right.

HUNTLEY: But you received a letter saying that you were not qualified?

JONES: Right.

HUNTLEY: Then what happened?

JONES: They we got our attorneys which was Orzell Billingsley and lawyer Adams who was a former member of the Alabama Supreme Court.

HUNTLEY: Oscar Adams.

JONES: Oscar Adams. They pursued the case through the federal system because we 00:19:00knew we couldn't win in the state courts at that particular time because they were highly prejudice.

HUNTLEY: What was the outcome?

JONES: Well, they ruled later on in favor that, you know, the City of Birmingham must hire Black police officers.

HUNTLEY: Now this, you initially filed the suit about 1956. The first policeman, Black policeman was not hired in Birmingham to about 1966.

JONES: Right. About ten years.

HUNTLEY: And was that as a result of the suit? Did the suit take that long?

JONES: Right. Because they kept fighting it back and forth until finally we got a favorable decision after all that time. In the meantime, the different officers, I mean the high ranking officers in the police department, they want me Jo come in something like an undercover agent, you know, an investigator and everything. And so I told them I wasn't for that. And I told them it ain't nothing but a high class snitch. Either I be in uniform or they forget it.

HUNTLEY: So they did offer you what was termed a snitch position. I know in the Black community you looked at those individuals as snitches.

JONES: Right.

HUNTLEY: But you refused that?

JONES: Right. And they told me, "You would have a badge. You would have the power of arrest, you know on the case that you're on." I said, "I am not that kind of person. I'm either on board, or I'm not."

HUNTLEY: Do you have any idea how many Black men were in fact, those kind of investigators?

JONES: It was quite a number.

HUNTLEY: I know as I grew up here in Birmingham there was one that worked out in our area.

JONES: Right. They did a lot of work, some of them had jobs like security 00:21:00officers and some of them had regular jobs. But still, in their off duty time they would infiltrate, you know, the bootleggers houses and things like that and pass on information.

HUNTLEY: Were you ever hired as a police officer? Did you ever get the job?

JONES: Well, really, I guess the Good Lord must have been in the plan, because I got something better later on because I served as the chaplain with the Jackson County Sheriff's Department and I served as the police chaplain at the Bessemer Police Department and I served as associate police chaplain at the Birmingham Police Department for three years and now I am currently the chaplain for the Randolph County Sheriff Department.

HUNTLEY: But in 1956 when the first policeman were hired, were you still 00:22:00available to take the position a t that point?

JONES: No. I began to start pursuing a ministerial course. It seemed like within myself I had that particular calling deep down, but I was trying to fight it.

HUNTLEY: So you were going into the ministry at that time?

JONES: Right. And I thought about going back to law school. Going back to Washington and going to law school and so I was kind of debating, you know, in my mind, fighting within myself, what course I must take. So whereas I didn't become a lawyer, I had a son and he became one.

HUNTLEY: Right.Clyde Jones, Jr.

JONES: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Did you get involved in the Movement as a result of your attempt to become a police officer?

JONES: No. I was really in it even before my attempt to become a police officer.

Because I had seen the way that Blacks were being treated. I remember one time I had a job too, as a bondsman over here at the city jail at the Harlem Bonding company. And W. L. Williams, Jr. and I, who is an attorney there now, ran this particular company. It was White owned, but we Blacks were more or less fronting it at that particular time. And we would go to jail and see how Black people were just beaten, just for nothing. I remember one time a Black guy, I think up north, somewhere around in Detroit or Cleveland came in there and said he had some White girls pictures on him and they beat him unmerciful.

HUNTLEY: So you and W. L. Williams ran this particular bonding company?

JONES: Right. I sure did.

HUNTLEY: How long did you do that?

JONES: I did that, if my memory serve me correctly, it was about 2-3 years, something like that.

HUNTLEY: So did you have the bonding company during the Movement period, during the demonstrations and all?

JONES: Again, if my memory serve me correctly, I was participating in it, because I remember I was working shifts from 8-3, 3-11 and I believe I took that 11-7 shift so I could participate in it.

HUNTLEY: What role did you play in the Alabama Christian Movement?

JONES: Well really, only just as a supporter. You know, I would just attend the meetings and whatever, would be planned by the person in charge, I would participate in it, you know.

HUNTLEY: So you did attend the mass meetings?

JONES: Yes. I did. And we also was in the picket lines, also, too.

HUNTLEY: Can you describe what the typical mass meeting was like?

JONES: It was very emotional and it could only be held in a Black church because that was the only place that was open to them at that particular time. And a person had a chance to speak their mind without any kind of reprisal against them, you know, with their own kind. And also that they were plagued by the White police at a particular time. They would park maybe about 2-3 three blocks away from the church and in different directions and they would stop, the participants, on some minor charge. You know, they would say they were speeding 00:26:00or they didn't stop at a stop sign, just a lot of things like that to harass them, to discourage them from attending.

HUNTLEY: Were police officers present at the meetings?

JONES: Yes. They would stand on the outside. They would have their informers in there. You know, that's one of the things we talked about earlier. They would have the informers who had a first hand report within a minutes after the meeting was over. And plus, the fact that the police themselves, the White establishment they would be, you know just about have the church surrounded. So to help suppress some of that, the meeting was held at different churches. Sometimes it would be at 16th Street Church, St. Paul, Sardis Baptist and they would do a number of other churches. You know, Fairfield First, and in order, to help put the people q11 guard so to speak.

HUNTLEY: Right. You said that you did picket different places?

JONES: Oh yes. Well, we picketed the bus station, the Greyhound bus station. We picketed, I believe it was Newberry's Department store and several other minor incidents and things.

HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested?

JONES: No. I never did get arrested.

HUNTLEY: In 1960 the sit-in demonstrations started. Well they were actually initiated in North Carolina and of course, they were sit-ins eventually here. In '61 the Freedom Riders came through. What do you remember about that period?

JONES: Oh, I remember how they were beaten brutally at the bus station. What happened, only law enforcement Blacks really trusted in at a particular time was 00:28:00during the FBI and they would tell the FBI that we have some Freedom Riders, you know, from coming in from North Carolina and they would tell the city police and the city police would be at the bus station to beat them and there would be a ruckus, you know, whereas the civil rights riders would be beaten and molested in a very cruel type way.

HUNTLEY: Did others in your family participate in the demonstrations?

JONES: They didn't particularly play active roles because most of them had the fear of losing their jobs in that particular time. But, you know, I had always been a type of person, I said, "If it's going to happen, it's going to happen. And we can't live like this forever in this type of environment." And so I 00:29:00didn't even fear for my life at that particular time, I would, sacrifice it.

HUNTLEY: How did others in your family react to your participation?

JONES: They were more or less fearful of me that I might get hurt. And they were glad I was doing what I was doing, but there was some kind of little remorse about, you know, the fear of getting hurt.

HUNTLEY: What church were you a member of at the time?

JONES: I was a member of St. Paul's United Methodist Church on 15th Street and about 6th Avenue.

HUNTLEY: And was your church actively involved?

JONES: I think one or two meetings were held there and some where they got fearful that the church was going to be bombed. That was prior to 16th Street 00:30:00Church getting bombed and so I think they kind of voted within themselves, you know, not to have any more meetings there.

HUNTLEY: What were the benefits do you think your family and the community realized as a result of the Movement?

JONES: Let's see. What benefits as a result of the Movement?

HUNTLEY: Yes, sir.

JONES: Well, the only thing I could see would be motivation. And it occurred to them that it was going to be a better day or if I'm focusing in on your question right. It would be a better day by them participating in those different boycotts and picketing and etc.

HUNTLEY: Right. Is there anything else you would like to add that we have not dealt with in relationship to the development of the Movement and the history of Birmingham?

JONES: Well, I would like to add, I wish as I look around today, and see how 00:31:00Blacks are killing up each other, if they could see the long struggle. I like to use this word, it was "Pure-0 -Hell" back in those days because a Black man was last to be hired and the first one to be fired. And when he went into a department store, he had a separate water fountain to drink out of. And sometimes he had no restroom. If they did, it was a bi-sex restroom, which was Pizitz. And also when he rode on a train, he had to sit in separate, segregated cars. He rode the bus, he had to sit in the back of the bus. And if you go to the counter to get something to eat, you had to stand there at the end of the counter and almost plead to get a sandwich or a coke. And after all the Whites had been waited on, then they would get around to waiting on you. And the police 00:32:00could arrest a person at random. In other words, a Black person would be sent to prison whereas a White person wouldn't even be brought into question on. And the court system was rotten too. Asmatter of fact, I remember when one lawyer friend of mine, he attended Howard too because he was in law school when I was an undergrad. But they couldn't even go to sit in the bar. They couldn't even use the law library, for research work. They had a case like Whites did. And so, it was just "pure-d-hell" at a particular time anyway. Some people call it the good old days, but I don't see nothing good about it.

HUNTLEY: So the Movement then of course, was developed to clear up all of these things?

JONES: Right. It would be the force behind Blacks, you know, having a better day 00:33:00because they were living in turmoil. And plus when you ride the street cars, and I would like to add, if we got time. I never will forget one time it was kind of comical. I guess I must have been around 11 or 12 and they had these old yellow street cars used to run from downtown to Ensley and so I didn't believe in signs. So my friend we took one of those segregated signs off and threw it out the window. And so the conductor saw us and they put us off the street car in East Thomas.

It was a hot day too. So we had to walk all the way from East Thomas to Smithfield. So I said, we are going to have to get him some kind of way. And so I remember my dad bought me one of these Red Rider BB guns and so we put some rocks on the street car tracks and so we knew about the time this conductor came around because the street car ran in front of my house. They got over the bend 00:34:00and we let loose with that B B gun. He cussed and everything. You know, Black folk always had a way, you know, doing something, to let the Whites know they resented the way they were being treated at that particular time.

HUNTLEY: Reaction against the system of segregation?

JONES: Right. Even during slavery time, they had some ways to get around it.

HUNTLEY: Well, I certainly do appreciate you taking the time out of your schedule to come up and sit with us. And we will get you a copy of this and let you look through it.

JONES: All right.