Carolyn Beard Wilson Interviewed on August 13, 1998

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Ms. Carolyn Beard Wilson for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I'm Dr. Horace Huntley. We're presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is August 13, 1998. Ms. Wilson, I'd like to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule and welcome to the Institute.

WILSON: I'm glad to be here.

HUNTLEY: I just want to ask you a couple of questions about your family.

WILSON: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Were you born in Birmingham?

WILSON: No.

HUNTLEY: Where were you born?

WILSON: I was born in Meridian, Mississippi.

HUNTLEY: Meridian, Mississippi?

WILSON: Right.

HUNTLEY: So, were your parents then from Mississippi?

WILSON: They are both from Mississippi. My mother is from Mount Olive. My dad is from New Haven. My father was called to a church in Meridian to preach, New Hope 00:01:00Baptist Church. Then when I was eight months old he was called here to preach at Sixteenth Street.

HUNTLEY: So, really this is home.

WILSON: Really this is home. This is where I was raised up. Right.

HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have?

WILSON: Ok, there were nine of us. We had one brother and a sister to pass away.

HUNTLEY: I see.

WILSON: Now there's seven of us left.

HUNTLEY: Where were you in that scheme of things?

WILSON: I was like the first girl my mother had. Do you understand what I'm saying?

HUNTLEY: Ok.

WILSON: She had three boys before she had me. So, I was the first of a kind in that family unit.

HUNTLEY: What about your parent's education? How much education did they have?

WILSON: My mother taught school in Mississippi before my father met and married her. My father of course went to Lincoln University and got his degree in divinity. Of course, there was a long hard struggle. It was very, very difficult 00:02:00for them. It was a thing they were determined to do. My mother being the oldest in her family. My grandfather was determined that they were going to go to college. She's the one that went.

HUNTLEY: Where did she go?

WILSON: She went to Piney Woods at that time. That was a college. In fact we have her diploma and everything at home.

HUNTLEY: Piney Woods is just one of the few Black Institutions such as that, that's still around.

WILSON: It is still around.

HUNTLEY: I have a nephew in fact that went last summer and also this summer for a week at Piney Woods. His parents are in the military. He's in Korea and they come here every year and they go to Piney Wood.

WILSON: When we go home, when I say home, I mean my mother's home for a family reunion or to visit my cousins. We passed through Collins, Mississippi and we 00:03:00passed the old courthouse. It's still standing looking like a traditional small town courthouse where she had to go and get her teaching certificate, register and everything. Register to vote, believe it or not. You know what she had to go through for that.

HUNTLEY: In Mississippi?

WILSON: Yes, at that time but she was knowledgeable.

HUNTLEY: Absolutely, must have been. Now when you came to Birmingham, of course you don't remember when they brought you to Birmingham. This then becomes home. What do you remember about starting to school? Where did you start first grade?

WILSON: We started, first of all we went to kindergarten, day care which used to be called the Federation Day Nursery. It was down there on the Jasper Road across from Legion Field. Of course, they've torn all that down now. Of course, that' s where my dad put us in nursery school, or day care, or kindergarten. From there of course to Lincoln School. That was always a wonderful experience 00:04:00from first grade all the way to eighth grade.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember about Lincoln?

WILSON: I remember the strong teachers that loved and cared for you. And the marvelous principals, Mr. Sutherland, Sam Sutherland was one of our principals. Mr. . John Trailer was the other one. They've both passed on now. That was at the time when the principals had control. It was different than what it is now.

HUNTLEY: Right.

WILSON: The teachers even if they had a feeling against the principal it was not vocalized at all. The principal was it and the teachers taught us and they loved us like we were theirs.

HUNTLEY: Yeah, and you lived in what community?

WILSON: You mean now?

HUNTLEY: No, then as you were growing up?

WILSON: Right here at the parsonage next to Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. That's where we were raised up.

HUNTLEY: So, how did you get back and forth to school?

WILSON: We would lake little short cuts through the back alley ways. We would go 00:05:00down 6th Avenue North, that way.

HUNTLEY: You would walk?

WILSON: We would walk. The only time that we would maybe ride to school, which was very seldom, was if it was raining. If it was not raining hard dad would say still walk. You know walking was pleasurable because you had your schoolmates that lived right around you. Everybody lived together. You were protection for each other and at that time all the mothers, just about the mothers and grandmothers were at home. So, they knew who would be passing every morning at a certain time. All the way up to 11th Street we would walk. Through the little cuts we would call it. Then walk up to 8th Avenue, switch up that way. Then go up and go to school.

HUNTLEY: After Lincoln where did you go?

WILSON: Old Parker High which is right up the road. (Laughing) A couple of blocks right up the road. At first when I left Lincoln of course you know the Parker Annex was right down from us.

HUNTLEY: 9th grade.

WILSON: 9th grade there. Went to the Annex. After that we left and went up to 00:06:00Parker High School and we still walked to school.

HUNTLEY: What was Parker High School like when you went?

WILSON: To us it was wonderful. I think it had a lot to do with the way it was structured, the way the education system was structured for us at that time. I don't know about the others. For example, you and I would start out together with Ms. Daisy H. Ray's first period class. She would call the roll, but Ms. Daisy H. Ray would say teach you government. You go to second period together with the same class. Third, fourth, all the way to the end of the day. You would be with that same class until seventh period. Then you would break off and go to your various, cosmetology, band, shoe repair, whatever you wanted to go to.

We were together all day so that was our family. We knew each other. The system of course was different then.

HUNTLEY: Were you involved in any extracurricular activities?

WILSON: I was always in the band. At Lincoln School I was in the band. When I 00:07:00got to Parker I was not in the band. I tried out for the choir and Mr. Willie Mayes Henry frightened me so badly, I was so afraid of him and my sister who was good and clean and played the piano. She played for the choir. So, I backed down and didn't join it. I got into other organizations, the Travelers Club and things like that. The cosmetology unit and things like that. I was very, very sociable. I've always had been.

HUNTLEY: I would not be able to tell that. (Laughing) Tell me now, you lived in the parsonage.

Your family was, your father was the minister at Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. Which was of course a prestigious church. How did you relate to other children as a result of the status of your father?

WILSON: Ok, and I'm assuming you mean children in my community and at school?

HUNTLEY: In your community, right.

WILSON: There was no difference made. My father was the kind of man, he was like that. In fact if he was coming to school to pick up me he would pick up you too and bring you home. When mom would cook dinner she would cook enough not only for us which there was a lot but she cooked enough for all of the children to come over and eat. So, we had a very good rapport with the children, with the neighborhood and of course my father was looked upon as the helper in the neighborhood. He was looked upon as the one that would help you out if you needed it. I remember a lot of times he would have to take people to the hospital and do things for people. That's just the way he was.

HUNTLEY: Now, what I'm bearing you say is that your childhood then was a good time in your life.

WILSON: Very positive experience.

HUNTLEY: Many times we, being from Birmingham, Birmingham being noted for its segregation people often wonder how do you have a good childhood in a setting 00:09:00such as this.

WILSON: Our father of course taught us everything. He let us know about the racism, segregation, where it came from, how it got started. He would get books and bring them in for us to read them. So, we always knew what was going on but at the same time he sheltered and protected us from having any direct contact. If you know what I mean. He would not even let us go, we could go to the Carver Theater, walk across and go to the Carver, we could go to the Famous and the Frolic. Even though they were not up to par so to speak. Right down about a block or two was the Leary and he said no. He said, "You are not going to go upstairs to a colored balcony while the Whites sit downstairs." He would not permit us to do it. I think one time one of us did and boy did we regret it. So, he was always very... it was painful for him. As we have grown up now and we 00:10:00look back we see that it was so painful for him to deal with this racism.

HUNTLEY: I know that all of our parents attempted to shelter us from that massive thing we call segregation or whatever. That's almost next to impossible in a setting such as that. Do you have any recollection of any incidents that may relate to segregation and race during your childhood?

WILSON: Yes, I have a couple I believe. I remember something was going on at Fair Park and we could not go. My daddy had to have the terrible duty of telling us why. So therefore, we had to go down Bessemer Highway to a little park off of that, it was called Kiddie Land.

HUNTLEY: In Roosevelt?

WILSON: In Roosevelt. We still have the pictures of us riding around in little Kiddie cars. That was one. That was so painful. Even today I don' t have any use 00:11:00for Fair Park, Alabama Theater. Now speaking of some personal things that happened. As I said, he kept us from, he protected us. In fact he knew where we were going every moment. Even if he was not at home and my brothers were going out to play it would be in the confines of this area no where else. No where walking around or playing around. They had to stay right in these areas which was a sort of protection. I've had some experiences later on in life. Then as a child, because my father was a type of person that welcomed ministers even White ministers to come to the house, missionaries. So, the contact that we had with Whites was you could say positive so to speak. When we got in the real world (Laughing).

HUNTLEY: It's a different story.

WILSON: It's a different story then.

HUNTLEY: Now, I know during any time in the history of this country that there is always a lot of pressure on Black men or Black boys. Were your brothers, did your brothers ever have any difficulty that say a girl would not have? I think that many times boys would venture a little bit further than girls. Was that a problem in your family?

WILSON: I don' t think it was a problem. As I said our father was the center of everything for us. He was the one that was there. Now my mom was always there but our dad is the one that you can say my brothers worshiped my father. Not only was he stern but he was very kind and loving. So, they knew not to venture 00:13:00out too much and do too much. He would get on us now. If he had to pull the belt out he would pull it out, but very seldom did he get it out. So, like I said in my house it was understood that everybody had to go to college. It was never spoken but you're going.

HUNTLEY: Did your mother work outside the home?

WILSON: After my father died she did. After dad died, as I told you she taught school before she married. Some principals at the church, some members of the church got her on the continuous supply list and she worked doing that for years. Then someone got her work up at Alabama A & M. That's where she retired.

HUNTLEY: Did your father work other than as a minister?

WILSON: Only thing U1at he ever did. He preached here, there, everywhere.

HUNTLEY: Now, being really right downtown. You live in downtown, your church is downtown. You were in close proximity physically anyway with many of the 00:14:00activities that were taking place particularly with, well, let's say in 1960, '61. 1961 for instance the Freedom Rides took place.

WILSON: Ok.

HUNTLEY: Were you all aware?

WILSON: We were aware, but you see at that time we were not living here. See, dad died in 1960, March and we had moved down to Smithfield.

HUNTLEY: I see.

WILSON: We were not here. We were not in this proximity but we were very well aware of what was going on.

HUNTLEY: Right. In '63 of course.

WILSON: Yes, we were here.

HUNTLEY: The year of the mass demonstrations took place. And you were probably a freshman at Miles.

WILSON: No, I had gone to Tuskegee in '62 after I finished Parker. I came home during the summer of '63. That's when all of that started taking place. Of course at that time the only one of us at home were my baby sister and myself. My mother was just so afraid. She said, " Pleasedon't go down there." She was 00:15:00afraid we were going to get killed, you know. Which was understandable.

HUNTLEY: So, you were a freshman at Tuskegee?

WILSON: I was a freshman at Tuskegee first and then when I came home for the summer I started out at Miles in the following year.

HUNTLEY: Where were you? Were you at Tuskegee in April and May of ' 63?

WILSON: No, no, I was here.

HUNTLEY: You were here then.

WILSON: No, April and May I was there. I was at Tuskegee because we didn't come home until June.

HUNTLEY: So, the demonstrations had already taken place by time you got home.

WILSON: Yes, they had already taken place.

HUNTLEY: There were demonstrations in Tuskegee as well.

WILSON: Oh, yes, there were. In the downtown area. It was very, everything was very alive. You were aware of what was going on. We were young but we knew what was going on.

HUNTLEY: How was the transition? What was the transition like from Parker to Tuskegee?

WILSON: For me, I missed being at home. That was my first time being away from home. By me not being at home I didn't do well with my lessons. I didn't do well 00:16:00at all. So, my mom said ok. Of course they wouldn't let me come back in. So she said no, I think I'll just let her stay here. I think my mother and I had become so close. See after om father died. We had brothers in the military. One brother at [inaudible] and everybody just kind of went there separate ways. My sister up in Kentucky, Ann and my baby brother Oscar were, I know you are familiar with the Friends, the Quakers Fellowship Program. They were in that. Ms. Maple Margaret Murphy got them in that when they were like in 10th grade at Parker. So, they were gone. They were in high schools up North.

HUNTLEY: Where did they go?

WILSON: I can't think of the name of the high school. My sister went to [inaudible] and my brother finished Princeton.

HUNTLEY: Did they finish high school up there?

WILSON: They finished high school up there.

HUNTLEY: In what state?

WILSON: My brother was in New York and my sister was still in Kentucky I believe in and around the Kentucky area.

HUNTLEY: They both were associated with the program?

WILSON: They were with the Friends. In fact they were recruiting here during that time and Ms. Murphy let them have their name. They came to the house and interviewed my mom. It was real exciting. It was good. It had its negative and it's positive. They were leaving home. But my mother being in the situation that she was in she had all these children to raise, honey, you know. I think in her mind she was thinking, thank you God for sending me some help. Of course they got scholarships to college. Their grades always remained A's. They got straight A's all the way through high school and college. So, it was painful on one end 00:18:00but you could see the end result on the other end.

HUNTLEY: Right. I know that you said that your mother didn't want you involved in the movement because she was deathly afraid.

WILSON: I could be involved in anything else but not going down to the marches with the hoses or the dogs or going down to the University of Alabama, the police. Anything like that she said you will get hurt. So, being at that time you say, yes mother and you did what she said. I did work for SCLC while I was at Miles. I did some work during the summer for them.

HUNTLEY: What did you do for them?

WILSON: I was up in Huntsville and they came recruiting out there to get college students to work during the summer. We stayed at Dr. John Cashian's house. He was a dentist up there. We stayed at Dr. Cashian's house. What we did we went to a designated place everyday and tutored. I taught reading and math to students I know that would not have had a chance. As I look back on that I say oh, I'm glad I did that.

HUNTLEY: So, you did that one year?

WILSON: It was one summer while I was at Miles. It was just that one summer. I didn't go to summer school that summer. So, I used that summer to go up there.

HUNTLEY: What did you major in?

WILSON: My major out at Miles was, I have a sociology major with a history and education minor. So, I teach, right now I do history and geography. I teach that.

HUNTLEY: Now, as the activities developed at Miles because I know Miles students were involved down here as well.

WILSON: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What was happening on campus?

WILSON: All the time. Dr. Lucius Pitts was our president and he was in with everything. We were always rallying and campaigning for something. Stokey Carmichael came on campus one day. Just spoke openly on the campus. Just all kinds of people. I think Angela Davis came, Angela Davis and I are the same age. She was always so active and always has been. It was just open. It was just 00:20:00open. It was a marvelous experience for me.

HUNTLEY: Did that experience have any impact upon how you would view your surroundings? Was there any change in the way that you had seen your surroundings earlier versus what it would be a little bit later based upon the activities that were going on?

WILSON: I think it just added to it. I found that many of my friends that I know of quite well. All of us were raised up at the same time in Birmingham. Many of us are still bitter about what was going on and what' s going on now. I'm bitter but it' s not to the point where I can't do anything about it. Do you understand? I'm still angry.

HUNTLEY: What are you angry about?

WILSON: I'm angry with the way I was treated. That we were treated. That we were denied access. That' s what I'm angry about. Right across this park was an 00:21:00elementary school. I can't think of the name of it right now but I believe it was private.

HUNTLEY: Finley.

WILSON: We could go to the park and play but couldn't go over there. My dad would say, "It's While." Right down further was Powell, Powell Elementary. So, I'm angry about being denied, no you can't. My experiences at Lincoln and Parker and Miles, honey, you can't pay for it because they just. .. and you know back in those times there was a strong sense of community. Our father was like the man (Laughing) in this whole area even far and beyond he was well known. Even up al Parker, R. C. Johnson was the principal then and he was well known. When he walked the halls (whispering) [inaudible). That's the way it was and the sense 00:22:00of the community. So, you had that protectiveness and that love and that caring. All the time out on the peripheral you knew how far you could venture out.

That's what's been painful coming up as a child.

HUNTLEY: Right. You know there's always been discussion about where the mass meetings were held, and that Sixteenth Street initially did not allow meetings to be held there. Was that ever discussed in your family?

WILSON: Never discussed. We never heard it discussed. But I do recall as I was telling the person that called me yesterday. I do recall that Dr. King did come here and speak. It was after the bus boycott. That was in '5 5. That had become successful. Then after that of course my dad being the minister I know he was instrumental in getting him here. We would bear our father say from time to time 00:23:00something is going to happen to bring the city together. But of course not knowing and he was a visionary person. He was very strong and spiritual. A lot of things he could foresee. He would [inaudible]. This would be said sometimes around the breakfast table, around the dinner table. He wouldn't say anything. Another painful thing since we're talking about those kinds of things.

HUNTLEY: Sure.

WILSON: You know how 11 goes straight through University of Alabama. I don't know whether it still does now. That's the route we would take going to Mississippi to visit our grandparents and our cousins.

HUNTLEY: Right.

WILSON: And he would always say, we would ask him why can't we go there. He would say, "Because you're the wrong color." He said, "One day you will, and it won't be long." Well, here again we had no idea what he meant, you know being children. I never will forget one experience we were driving through Jackson, 00:24:00Mississippi. My father had a lot, there's a big family of them, huge family. He had three or four that lived right in Jackson. He did a lot of his preaching there. We were driving through downtown and these police pulled us over. So, my father said, "Don't say anything." So, none of us said anything. It made us so angry because we hadn't done anything. The fact that my father, the church had bought him one of these big nine passenger DeSota's if you remember those. A big car coming through town, you know. He was very polite, "Yes, officer, may I help you?" "Yeah, boy, where are ya'll going?" He said, "Well, this is my wife' s home and I was raised up down here." We could just see my father cringing but at the same time protecting us from this, you know. He said, "Oh, why are you coming through Jackson?" He said, "I'm going to visit my sisters and brothers." Then he said their name. "Oh, yeah, we kmow them." So, things, demeaning things 00:25:00like that. Very demeaning.

HUNTLEY: It has some staying power with any child.

WILSON: It has stayed with me, all of it has stayed.

HUNTLEY: How have you dealt with that? In terms of your being angry. This is modem day, 1998.

WILSON: I think I've dealt with it in fact that I've stayed with the church. Even though when my father died we moved down and my brothers and sisters moved away I was still here at the church taking part, playing for. In fact, when I was 13 years old though. This was before dad died. One of his pastor friends, Dr. P. Washington Coats, he and a few had left Tabernacle which was on 25th Street at that time and they bad moved around here to Southern Bell Funeral Home. They would let us use the chapel. My dad came in one Sunday and said, "Baby," He explained what was going on. "They need somebody to play for them." I said, "Ok." You didn't take it. There was no lip going on. You did what your 00:26:00daddy said. I said, "Ok." He said, "Every Sunday you go over there." I said, "Yes sir." That's where I went. That was an experience for me. That was quite an experience. I stayed there until I was 19 or 20 years old. I think it was the church. I was very bitter. It's like your average 18, 19, 20-year-old. Even when I started teaching I was still bitter.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after Miles?

WILSON: After Miles I started teaching, right away. I started out at McElwain School and I started out at the time. It's out in the Crestwood area, Crestline.

HUNTLEY: That was a White school?

WILSON: All White. It was during the time when the courts had demanded this crossover. You had to desegregate your faculty first. Me and another teacher we were the first and only two Blacks out there.

HUNTLEY: What was that experience like?

WILSON: It was traumatic because we were not, you would think persons, you know 00:27:00professionals, you know we were all teachers would be treated well but we were not. We were isolated and ignored more than anything else. We were not included. We were the first of course. Of course the children and the parents treated us well because we were teaching their children. They treated us with dignity.

HUNTLEY: The faculty?

WILSON: The faculty, no. It was a thing of, in fact we had to bind or be together. I didn't know her and she didn't know me until we met. She has children my age, has sons my age. We had to get real close, right away. We bonded instantly for protection. As I look back on it of course the only Blacks out there were the ones in the kitchen or maintenance. They had never seen any 00:28:00Blacks in that position. They had been programmed, socialized and just could not accept it. I was very angry about that.

HUNTLEY: You mean Blacks that were in the ...

WILSON: No, the Whites I'm talking about.

HUNTLEY: So, there were not Blacks even in the kitchen?

WILSON: Yes, there were Blacks in the kitchen but they had a White dietician over them.

HUNTLEY: Oh, I see.

WILSON: Then you had your regular maintenance workers.

HUNTLEY: What year did you go out there?

WILSON: I went out there in September of '68.

HUNTLEY: You were the first two Black teachers out there?

WILSON: We were the first. At that time that was a strong Jewish community. In fact the parents would invite us to their Bar mitzvah to Temple Emanuel or whatever they had going on we would be involved in it.

HUNTLEY: So, the community accepted you.

WILSON: The community accepted us because we were teaching their children. We didn't have any, nothing. Nobody to come and picket, none of that. It was the 00:29:00cold isolation that we received from the faculty.

HUNTLEY: What was the stance of the principal?

WILSON: I think the principal felt like he was in a position, Mr. Mann, he's dead now. He was in a position where he was cultured and wanted us as much as he was permitted to do so. If you understand what I mean. He would always come to my room. I remember once when Dr. Brown, I think it was Dr. Charles Brown started making the little videos about Black history month, Black history week, whatever. I got one of those kits and I was determined to show it to the kids. So, I went to the principal and said, "Mr. Mann, I have something I want you to see and I do want to get your permission to show it." He said, "Ok, come on." He looked at the film strip and said, "Ok, show it." So, he was in a position to where he couldn't be to far either way.

HUNTLEY: But you didn't have any, you didn't get any flack from parents as a result of showing that?

WILSON: Oh, no. Our flack came from the faculty.

HUNTLEY: From the faculty.

WILSON: Yes. Nothing was said to us verbally but actions. I mean when you walk pass a person and you speak and you don't speak then that's a slap, you know.

HUNTLEY: How long were you at McElwain?

WILSON: I was at McElwain for three years. Then I went to Kingston Elementary. No, I was at McElwain for about five years. Then went to Kingston had seventh and eighth grade. Mr. Jones was the principal out there then. He taught us math at Parker while we were there. Then when I left Kingston.

HUNTLEY: Kingston was a Black school?

WILSON: All B lack. That was a different experience too because I never had that, you know. I had all Whites and all Blacks. I felt like I was doing more.

HUNTLEY: How did you come about making that transfer? Did you request it?

WILSON: I didn't request it. The state department al that time was trying to get everybody on top with their certifications. See I have certification for secondary which I think starts maybe at the seventh grade and goes on up. When I was at McElwain I was teaching some fifth and sixth grade social studies. I'm thinking that's what it was. It could have been something else. I don't know.

HUNTLEY: How long were you at Kingston?

WILSON: I was at Kingston one year. After I left Kingston the board became involved in a tutoring program. No, I need to back up some for you first. I started teaching with the board in January '68 but I started at McElwain that September. I started with the board in January '68 being a tutor teacher. There 00:32:00were several of us and we would go from school to school. Of course the person over the program tried to get me in the vicinity of there where we were living in Smithfield. Even though I didn't have a car I had people to come and pick me up. You know I had access to buses. I went to Bush, Graymont Elementary School, at that time Mr. Tortorice was the principal there then. So, I was in that up until the school closed. I was a tutor teacher. It was a federally funded program. They paid us just like first year teachers. Then I went to McElwain.

HUNTLEY: So, how long have you been in the school system?

WILSON: I've been in the school system as of January this year, 31 years.

HUNTLEY: And where are you now?

WILSON: Huffman High School.

HUNTLEY: So, you made the transition to high school. Over that 30-year period 00:33:00how has the system changed? How has education changed?

WILSON: (Laughing) Well, we know education has changed. That we know. Well, see at first I started with the White students and then had Black students. Then I went to a situation where I had Black and White students together. When I first started out being a teacher I had more say so about how I was to control my class. How I was to teach them. But doing all these different programs coming in, changing over of administration. I think I've seen about five or six super intendents since I've been here. It could be more, I don't know. I met all of them personally. There has been more of a target on you justifying yourself. 00:34:00There's a better word for it I can't say it right now, but you know what it is. You have to back up everything that you do.

HUNTLEY: You have to prove yourself.

WILSON: You have to prove yourself and that's paperwork to me. That's unnecessary. I am a trained professional taught by the best. We call her Mom Bliss out at Miles College and Ms. Ida Smith who taught me all my secondary courses. She's still living. I was taught by the best and this is demeaning. You have such little time to teach and your hands are tied when it comes to discipline. And of course discipline can take many forms. I don' t always believe in the spanking but I think they should go somewhere else for that, but I think I should control that in my room and students should not have the power to talk back to me. It has changed.

HUNTLEY: You say that is what is happening today.

WILSON: This is happening today and there is less focus on what students are learning. Well, now we're going to the block scheduling this year. I think the 00:35:00concept behind that is if students have more time in your class, this is what I'm hearing. I'm going to a workshop tomorrow there's supposed to explain the whole thing. What I'm hearing is that if students have more time in your class you can have more time to work with them. That's not it because I'll have 30 to 35 kids in my class it's going to still, I still have to manually pass out sheets, do a little lecture because they don't understand that. It goes over their heads. And of course, our students have changed. Society has changed, home environment, family. All of that has impacted education, very much so. It has.

HUNTLEY: If there were anything, if you had the ability to change any portion of 00:36:00your life going back through it. What would you change?

WILSON: Any portion of my life?

HUNTLEY: Any portion of your life and the way you have been impacted upon by other things. Not necessarily saying that there wouldn't be segregation, but all other things remain the same. What would you do different than you did?

WILSON: I think looking back on it when I first went to McElwain School. I was so angry. I was so angry and hostile that I became ill. I developed spasms of the colon. Of course the doctor I had said a lot of times that steams from the way you 're raised up, you' re expectations in your family. I said, "No." But 00:37:00looking at our history how can I not be angry? I just, and I mean I became very vocal after a while. After we had taught at school that school for maybe a year or maybe before that. We started developing strategies to deal with them. One strategy was and I did not create it my co-worker did. She said, "Carolyn, when you go to the office don' t smile and don't speak.

Get your things out of your box, sign your name, get your coffee and come out." Just out of the blue she did it. I said it was God giving her division. She said, "I'm going to do the same thing." She got there that morning and did the same thing. See they stand around in the office and if you spoke it was grunt or 00:38:00it was nothing at all. Honey, by the end of that day I bet you a number of them down on my floor found a reason to come to my door for something. I'm not kidding. They found a reason to come to my door for something. Of course I started, I was angry. I said, ''Yes, what do you want?" "Oh, Ms. Beard, just. . ." "I'll see about it later and let me get through with my class." "You can come by later if you have time."

I became very belligerent about it. It just came out. It was a cleansing process for me too. Then after the doctor believe it or not the doctor that I had was the White doctor that treated my father with his nervous condition. He would 00:39:00tell me, honey, you have to find a way to deal with those folks out there. Those were his words. He's dead and gone now. I said, "What do you mean?" "You have to find a way to deal with it or I'm going to put you on disability." He said because the condition I was developing would lead to other conditions. Of course I went through the whole battery of the physical examination. They did everything. You know how they turn you upside down. It's a nervous condition.

HUNTLEY: It was something you had.

WILSON: So, when I went back. I was out sick a lo t that first year teaching. I went back and my coworker told me she said, "Listen, we've got to work." We used that strategy.

HUNTLEY: We've covered a lot of territory.

WILSON: Have we?

HUNTLEY: Is there anything else that you would like to conclude with?

WILSON: I think the most and of course we had a lot of marvelous experiences 00:40:00being raised up in the church with our father being over us. Not only over us but everybody. Of course he had his bad times there too. That's understood. But out of, first of all being raised up by wonderful loving parents who loved us very much. Then being exposed to loving teachers who were concerned about our welfare and who taught us well. Then by me being exposed to teaching, my teaching career. I think my next big thing was meeting my husband and having my baby. That was a plus in my life. We're working on 21 years.

My daughter's beading to college in the next two weeks. It's added so much to me. People ask me often why are you always bubbly. I said, look, I was the first of a kind in my family. I was showered with affection and love and that's all I 00:41:00give out. It' s natural as breathing air to me and drinking water. It's not anything I perform or put on to do. It's very natural. I found as a gift from God, He has made it possible that people are attracted to me. It's not my own gift it's something He put in me to do and I love that about myself. I guess you can tell. (Laughing) My husband and I know you don't have much time but I must tell you how I met my husband. We were having a church picnic out at Harrison Park with Sixteenth Street. I was there playing. I was about 33, 34 at that time. So, I went out and one of my girlfriends said "Don't go out to the picnic come here." I said, "No, I promised some of the ladies I was coming to show them how to play bridge."

Well, like a lot of single girls you have this boyfriend and that boyfriend. I 00:42:00was at a low at that time anyway. I went and I was standing out in the park by myself, just standing there deciding should I stay or go home. So, these two little girls came up to me and pulled on me. They said, "Hey, Ms. Beard." I said, "What are ya'll doing out here?" They said, "Well, our dad brought us out here." Well, I taught them over at Davis School when it was a school. See I was on another program under Dr. Fountain called Ease of Humanities and I worked in that for a year. Me and Ruth Krull, oh several of us. Anyway, I had taught them during the program over there. I said, "Oh." They said, "Where are you fixing to go?" I said, "I'm going home." They said, "No, come meet our daddy." I said, "Ok." So, I walked up and some men were coming out. So, I walked up to him and I was about to shake his hand and said, "How are you doing? My name is.. " He 00:43:00said, "I already know who you are." I said, "You do?" He said, "Yes, your Carolyn Beard." And he ran down the whole shebang about me.

Here I am wondering who told this man about me. I said, " Oh, ok." He said, "You don't remember but you played for my baptismal one Sunday morning at church. Rev. Crutchet called you." I said, "Yeah. Was it you?" He said, "It was me and two other kids got baptized. I said, "I vaguely remember it but I didn't see you." He said, "I know." I said, "I didn't know you were a member here." He said, "Well, yes and I'm on the usher board and I usher when the men need me." I said, "Ok." So, we left from there and went to start playing cards. So, I was playing with Henry Blankenship and he would always call me big sister and I would call him little brother. So we were playing cards. My husband now, he was picking at me.

He said, "I thought you could play cards." I said, "I can." We started picking 00:44:00at each other. He said, "Well, tomorrow I'm going to come down to the piano and speak to you." I said, "Ok." Then I left. Thought no more about it.

He came down to the piano said, "Hey Ms. Beard." I said, "Hey how are you doing?" Fine, bye and I left, you know. So, my mind wasn't on that. So, three weeks later Henry Blankenship got us together. We went out that night, that was like on a Monday and we went out. We went to Henry's house out in Pratt City. He said, "I just knew ya'll were going to get together." He had called me that morning telling me that he likes you. I said, "You can give him my phone number." He said, "No because your phone number is private." So, he told him that she can have my number, so I called him that evening. So, we got together and we' ve been together ever since.

HUNTLEY: 20 something years.

WILSON: We met in '76 and got married in May of '78.

HUNTLEY: ls that right?

WILSON: I got to tell you something Rev. Prichard told me. He said one Sunday he 00:45:00came to his study and asked him who was the lady down there that plays and directs the choirs. He said, well, I have about three or four down there. He said, oh, no, this one is big and yellow and big pretty legs. She is gorgeous. So, he said, oh, you mean Carolyn. Rev. Prichard said, why do you ask? He said, that's going to be my wife. It's going to be your what.

HUNTLEY: He had already made that decision.

WILSON: He had already made it by just looking at me, watching me. So, sure enough Rev. Prichard said he watched them and sure enough he wouldn't hanky panky around. He was just waiting to meet me. When I met him I was just so impressed. I said this is such a loving man. He is a very kind, hard-working, 00:46:00gentle, all the above.

HUNTLEY: Not many folk can say that.

WILSON: They find the least little thing to get mad about.

HUNTLEY: Well, I certainly appreciate your time.

WILSON: I've enjoyed it very much.

HUNTLEY: Maybe we'll do it again sometime.

WILSON: That'll be fine.

HUNTLEY: Thank you.