Catherine Burks Brooks Interviewed on April 29, 1996

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Catherine Brooks for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I am Horace Huntley. We are at Miles College on April 29, 1996.

Thank you Ms. Brooks for taking time out of your schedule to come and sit with us today.

BROOKS: You're welcome.

HUNTLEY: I would just like to start by asking you some general questions about your background. Were your parents from Birmingham?

BROOKS: Yes, and that's Catherine Burks Brooks.

HUNTLEY: Okay. That's important, because your classmates will say "Catherine Brooks? Who is that?" So, both of your parents were from Birmingham?

BROOKS: No. They were originally from Alabama. They came out of Sardis, Alabama.

HUNTLEY: Both were from Sardis?

BROOKS: That's right.

HUNTLEY: How many brothers and sisters do you have?

BROOKS: One brother and four sisters.

HUNTLEY: You must have had a time?

BROOKS: Oh, yes. And I was kind of like on the end. The youngest girl.

HUNTLEY: You're the youngest girl?

BROOKS: That's right. So, I had to really fight.

HUNTLEY: Well, that may have something to do with your activities in the Movement that we'll get to talk about a little bit later.

BROOKS: It could have. I never really thought about that, but that could happen. Because the one that I was next to was something like 8 or 9 years older. And, so they were just going to push me around. But, that didn't happen.

HUNTLEY: I can tell. Were you born in Birmingham?

BROOKS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Where did you start elementary school?

BROOKS: Shields, Alberta Shields in East Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: Tell me just a bit about your parents. Where did they go to school and how much schooling did they have?

BROOKS: Well, my father had virtually no schooling. They came, as I said, out of Sardis and my mother went to the 3rd grade.

HUNTLEY: What kind of work did they do?

BROOKS: My father worked for the Alabama By-Product. He was a machine operator. My mother was a wool and silk presser.

HUNTLEY: So, she worked inside and outside the house?

BROOKS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: So, you had a hard-working family?

BROOKS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Then, as you grew up, what do you remember about your neighborhood when you were in elementary school?

BROOKS: I remember it seems as if we all cared about each other. It was a 00:03:00working, poor community, but it was a working community. If my parents were not home, I knew where to go. Just a couple of doors down or next door to wait until my mother got off, if I was afraid to go into the house. That was one thing that really kind of stuck with me. That we were seeing after each other.

HUNTLEY: What kind of occupations did people have in the community?

BROOKS: Most of the men, as I can remember, either worked for the Alabama By-Product, Stockham Valve, and this is on Tallapoosa Street in East Birmingham, L&N, I think.

HUNTLEY: The railroad?

BROOKS: Yes. Or McClouds.

HUNTLEY: What's McClouds?

BROOKS: Well, that was a factory. I think they made pipes or something at McClouds in Tarrant City.

HUNTLEY: You had a lot of pipe factories in that area so that's probably what that was. Where did you go to high school?

BROOKS: I went to Parker.

HUNTLEY: Parker High School. Where is that? I've heard of that little school someplace.

BROOKS: Little school? I think at that time we were the largest Black school in the country. That's right. The Thundering Herd.

HUNTLEY: I think I've heard something about that. But, over at Wenonah, we didn't pay much attention to you people at Parker. Were you active in extra-curricular activities at Parker?

BROOKS: Yes. I was in the band and a number of other clubs. As a matter of fact, I never will forget Mr. Caswell use to call us his "three Blackies." I was a majorette.

HUNTLEY: Is that right?

BROOKS: Yes. And, even at our Black high school, at that time you know we were just letting Black girls become majorettes and I was one of the first Black majorettes at Parker.

HUNTLEY: You were one of the first phenotypically Black majorettes at a Black school?

BROOKS: Yes. Color black is what I mean. Dark.

HUNTLEY: That's interesting. What was that like? Did you have any difficulty as a result of having dark skin?

BROOKS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Tell me how did that operate in that Black setting?

BROOKS: Well, you know it's been years since I've thought about that. It was always a challenge. It was always a fight. I was always willing to fight the fight and kept my head high even though we were dark. It was a little saying, what was that?

HUNTLEY: "If you're Brown, stick around..."

BROOKS: Yes. "If you're Brown, stick around, if you're Black, get back." It was something like that. And, so I was determined not to get back.

HUNTLEY: "If you're White, you're right."

BROOKS: That's right. "If you're Brown, stick around. If you're Black, get back." And, so I was determined not to get back.

HUNTLEY: So, you put up a defense against that whole idea?

BROOKS: That's right. I did. And, I built a wall, which is a mess too, because you eventually have to tear it down.

HUNTLEY: What do you mean? "You built a wall and, then, you eventually have to tear it down."

BROOKS: Because you become hard, you become tough. You're always waiting for something. You're always waiting for a fight.

HUNTLEY: You said that as a result of this attitude of people looking at Black as being negative, you put up a defense?

BROOKS: Right.

HUNTLEY: And, then you solidified that defense by fighting, when necessary?

BROOKS: That's right. And, then sometimes it may not have been necessary to fight. But, because of that you think it is necessary to fight.

HUNTLEY: So, in effect, it becomes necessary all the time to fight, in your mind?

BROOKS: That's right. As one example I think of right now. I think we were in Cleveland or some parts of Ohio and we went to this restaurant and they told us 00:07:00to go upstairs. You know right away we're thinking they want us to go upstairs because we're Black. So, we're going to put up a fight. No, it was just no seats downstairs. It's that type of a thing.

HUNTLEY: So that creates difficulties from both sides?

BROOKS: Right.

HUNTLEY: What was it like being one of the first "Black" majorettes? What kind of impact did that have on the rest of the school? Didn't you say there were three of you?

BROOKS: Yes, it was three of us.

HUNTLEY: Out of how many? Maybe 8 or 10?

BROOKS: Oh, no. It was more than that. We had three lines. I believe we had three lines and we may have had six in a line. So, that would give us 18. We 00:08:00either had two or three lines, something like that.

HUNTLEY: What did your parents say about this kind of activity? Did they have any idea that this was happening at your school? As a result of your being dark-skinned that you had to put up with the kinds of things that you're talking about?BROOKS: No. I don't think they really had. If they did, they never expressed it.

HUNTLEY: But it was well known in the school?

BROOKS: Yes, of course. It was well known in the school and it could have been in the community, but as far as my parents talking about it or me talking to them about it, no, I just couldn't remember. My mother was always willing to work from almost kin to kane to get me the things to measure up to be in these types of activities. She used to tell me I came feet first and I just been moving ever since.

HUNTLEY: How did the teachers treat you in that regard? Were there any differences between the way the teachers actually treated light-skinned children versus dark-skinned children?

BROOKS: I can't pinpoint any particular teacher. But it seems as if the lighter skinned children received the better breaks or privileges.

HUNTLEY: What instrument did you play?

BROOKS: I was a majorette, I didn't play an instrument.

HUNTLEY: That's right.

BROOKS: I was also in the elementary school band. I went to Lincoln also for a short period.

HUNTLEY: So that was your area for a while, Lincoln to Parker Annex. Did you go to Parker Annex?

BROOKS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And, then on to Parker?

BROOKS: No. Well, let's back up a little bit. Our little school went from the 00:10:001st to the 4th. And, then from the 5th grade we had to go to another school.

HUNTLEY: What other school was that?

BROOKS: I went to Lincoln then. Then I went to Hudson, which was not that far from my house. It may have taken us 30 minutes to walk it. That's how I was at Lincoln. Then, they built a new school in my area, Shields. Named after the original small school. So, you can say that I went to three elementary schools.

HUNTLEY: What do you remember most about Parker?

BROOKS: Well, we would say the band. I enjoyed the band. I remember my government teacher and I can't remember her name, but I had a lot of respect for 00:11:00her. Of course, that was in the 12th junior and the 12th senior. One thing stopped with me. We did have Black History and I learned here recently that we no longer have that in our school, which I think is a shame. That was really helpful. I remember Major Brown. He also taught me history. He was very tough, and he was also the Football Coach. I remember once he threatened to pull the top of my hair out if I skipped a class once. I never skipped another class. You know I actually believed he was going to do that.

HUNTLEY: Most people believed what Major Brown said at that time.

BROOKS: Yes, he made a believer out of me.

HUNTLEY: After you finished high school, what did you do?

BROOKS: I went to Tennessee State in Nashville, Tennessee.

HUNTLEY: Why did you decide to go to Tennessee State?

BROOKS: Well, I had a girlfriend in the neighborhood, Joyce Parker, and Joyce 00:12:00was going to Tennessee State at that time. I was thinking about a number of other schools, but I think that was probably one of my main reasons for deciding Tennessee State, because she seemed to have loved it and was having a nice time. I wanted to get away from home, too. I wanted to go off.

HUNTLEY: You wanted to be independent?

BROOKS: That's right.

HUNTLEY: At Tennessee State were you involved with the band?

BROOKS: Well, you wouldn't believe it. At Tennessee State, I was too dark. But, of course, things have changed. I was not a majorette at Tennessee State. They were, what we called at that time, "high yellow."

HUNTLEY: There were no dark majorettes at the time at Tennessee State?

BROOKS: No.

HUNTLEY: Did someone verbalize that to you or was that just something that was understood?

BROOKS: It was understood, but someone did later. One of my close girl friends who was involved in the Freedom Ride with me, Lucretia Collins, who was a 00:13:00majorette also, but she was lighter. We talk about it now.

HUNTLEY: The majorettes actually selected the people who would come aboard?

BROOKS: No. That was the band teacher.

HUNTLEY: The band teacher decided?

BROOKS: Yes. And as a matter of fact, I even had a letter from Mr. Caswell to the band instructor there.

HUNTLEY: We'll have to pursue that discuss some other time because that's a very interesting one.

BROOKS: I had no idea we would get into this.

HUNTLEY: What about other activities at Tennessee State? How did you get involved with the Movement?

BROOKS: Well, my boyfriend was involved with the Movement. Curtis Murphy. He had been trained to participate in the sit-in movement. And, so they were holding 00:14:00their meetings down, near Fisk and we always had a run-in with the girls at Fisk and, so I said, "Hum, I just better go down here and see what's going on." So that's how I got involved.

HUNTLEY: So, you become involved as a result of protecting your turf?

BROOKS: I don't know if I'd put it that strongly, but...

HUNTLEY: Tell me what was your first involvement?

BROOKS: My first involvement must have been a sit-in there at one of the lunch counters. I think it was some hamburger place, White Castle. I think it was a White Castle or something like that.

HUNTLEY: How did that get started? What precipitated your desire to do and sit-in at White Castle?

BROOKS: Well, of course, we could not eat there. They had been learning the 00:15:00non-violent way of doing this. I had been talking with him and they were recruiting students to go.

HUNTLEY: So, he recruited you to come?

BROOKS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Were you trained, or did you simply go and sit-in?

BROOKS: I think I must have gotten my training later. I think I was just trained by him as to what...

HUNTLEY: What you should do and what you should not do?

BROOKS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Do you actually remember that first time that you went to sit-in? How did it feel? What was going through your mind?

BROOKS: Well, I don't know if I actually remember the very first time. But, I do 00:16:00recall some of the times just saying, "Okay, am I going to be able to not do anything if someone spits on me?"

HUNTLEY: How did you answer that?

BROOKS: I think that was my constant thing, just being cool if someone...but it never happened though.

HUNTLEY: No one ever accosted you?

BROOKS: No.

HUNTLEY: Were you ever arrested there?

BROOKS: Yes, I was arrested in Nashville.

HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances of the arrest? How did it happen?

BROOKS: This was at one of the lunch counters. I don't remember which one, but it was at one of the lunch counters. Of course, the policemen came in and asked us to leave. If you don't leave, you're under arrest. And, so, of course, we didn't leave, and we were taken to jail.

HUNTLEY: How long were you in jail?

BROOKS: I believe it was just overnight.

HUNTLEY: So, you were still in school at the time, right?

BROOKS: Yes, I was still in school at the time.

HUNTLEY: Did your parents know that you were demonstrating?

BROOKS: I don't believe they did.

HUNTLEY: Did you ever tell them that during the time you were in school, that you were demonstrating?

BROOKS: I'm almost sure I had to have told them after that.

HUNTLEY: After you finished school maybe?

BROOKS: Oh, no. During the time, because I was even put out of Tennessee State.

HUNTLEY: You were?

BROOKS: Yes. So, this was kind of over a stretch over period of time.

HUNTLEY: What were the circumstances of you being put out of Tennessee State?

BROOKS: This was during the Freedom Ride.

HUNTLEY: What happened? Why were you put out?

BROOKS: I don't know what was the charge. I don't recall. But, when we came down here on the Freedom Ride.

HUNTLEY: You were one of the Freedom Riders that left Nashville coming to Birmingham?

BROOKS: Yes. When the bus was burned in Anniston, when CORE gave up the ride, and so, a number of us, that was kind of like the "Diehard Seven," I think we called ourselves, we said the ride must go on. And, so, then we took up the Freedom Ride.

HUNTLEY: Okay. So, you picked it up as a result of the individuals being attacked in Anniston?

BROOKS: That's right.

HUNTLEY: Students at Tennessee State decided that they were going to do the same thing and pick up the ride so that it would not die?

BROOKS: That's right.

HUNTLEY: So, you rode from Nashville to Birmingham?

BROOKS: That's right. It was Fisk and ABT, the American Baptist Theological Seminary.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about that ride? What do you remember about it?

BROOKS: Oh, I remember almost everything about that ride.

HUNTLEY: You boarded the bus in Nashville. Were there any problems in Nashville?

BROOKS: No, there were no problems in Nashville. A lot of photographers. We had a fantastic send off. It must have been early, early morning. The fellow I eventually married came on that ride with us. I think it was about 11 of us.

HUNTLEY: All Black?

BROOKS: No. There were, I believe there were three Whites. One White fellow and two White girls. They were attending Fisk, I believe.

HUNTLEY: They were attending Fisk at the time?

BROOKS: Yes. And, the fellow, I'm not sure whether he was at Fisk or at Vanderbilt. He could have been at Peabody, one of those schools there.

HUNTLEY: Were there any stops between Nashville and Birmingham?

BROOKS: Yes. At the time, the police stopped us just before we got into 00:20:00Birmingham. My husband, which was Paul Brooks, was taken off of the bus and also the White fellow, because they were sitting together. They were taken to jail.

HUNTLEY: They were arrested?

BROOKS: They were arrested.

HUNTLEY: Was this by a Birmingham policeman or state troopers?

BROOKS: I don't remember if it was state troopers or Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: But this was before you got to Birmingham?

BROOKS: Right.

HUNTLEY: When you arrived in Birmingham, what was the reception?

BROOKS: Well, we had all the policemen there and we were trying to go on to Montgomery and, then on into Jackson and these bus drivers refused to drive us. He refused to drive us any further.

HUNTLEY: From Birmingham?

BROOKS: That's right. So, this was the time where we couldn't find the bus driver. So, I think we were here for about 18...no, let me back up some. We were 00:21:00eventually taken off of the bus and, then taken to jail. Oh, Bull Conner said, "for our protection." Then, we were taken out of jail. It was around midnight. I'll never forget that. Lucretia was with me. They came for us. The matron told us to get ready. they were going to take us back to Nashville. And, so we got up, put our clothes on and so, we weren't putting our clothes on fast enough. I'll never forget that. She came back and she said, "Didn't I tell you all to get your clothes on?" So we said, "We didn't ask to come in here, so we don't have to rush." We didn't rush. We took our time because we weren't really interested in leaving.

HUNTLEY: This was approximately nine of you at that time?

BROOKS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: How were you transported from the Birmingham jail back to Tennessee?

BROOKS: When they came to pick us up, one of the White girls, I understand that Bull Connor had called her father, and her father had picked her up. I don't know what happened to the other White girl. Whether they had sent her back home or what. And, so, Lucretia and I were refusing to leave. In our training we were taught to just go limp. And, so I refused to walk out. One of the guards picked me up and carried me out of the jail and put me in a car. It was a White fellow from the Birmingham News, I believe, and Bull Connor, and it seems as if we stopped in Cullman and picked up a man at the time that I assumed was a priest 00:23:00or a minister or something because he had a collar on. And, then they carried us and the fellows to the state line. The name of that little town was Atmore or Ardmore, Alabama, between Tennessee and Alabama.

HUNTLEY: I know Atmore is south.

BROOKS: So, it must be Ardmore.

HUNTLEY: I'm not familiar with that town.

BROOKS: Well, there's a little town there right on the border.

HUNTLEY: They put you out there?

BROOKS: That's right.

HUNTLEY: Did the Tennessee officials pick you up?

BROOKS: No. Bull Connor told us that there was a train station and we could go back to Nashville. I told him, "We'll see you back in Birmingham by high noon." 00:24:00So, you know, through being Black, and I guess I'm a little older than you, so I don't know if you were taught this down the road, you're kind of always taught how to survive and where to find the Black people. And it seems as it we were always told to go across the track. Some of the fellows left to find some Black families. And, they did. Now, understand there were only six Black families in that town, and, so the Lord was really with us. We did find one of those Black families.

HUNTLEY: So, there were 5 or 6 of you?

BROOKS: At that time, it had to have been. It had to have been 6, 7 or 8, something like that.

HUNTLEY: Well, what did the Black family do?

BROOKS: The man came to the door, and I could understand that now, and I 00:25:00understood it then, he was afraid to let us in. You know it had been on the news and everything. At that time, of course, we thought the Klan was coming once we found out that was not a bus station. Why would they put us out right there? And, so, I had always been taught to wake up the lady and, that she would probably, her mother instincts would probably take over. So, I figured if we talked loud enough and long enough and wake up his wife, that we were going to get in, so we did. They let us in, we called back to Nashville and Diane Nash, I'm quite sure you know of her.

HUNTLEY: Sure.

BROOKS: She was coordinating the Freedom Ride from Nashville, so we called her. They were wondering what had happened to us. She sent a car down. Leo Little was driving to pick us up and to bring us back to Birmingham. And, so we almost made 00:26:00it by high noon.

HUNTLEY: So, you came back to Birmingham?

BROOKS: Oh, no we didn't go back to Nashville.

HUNTLEY: So, when you came back to Birmingham you attempted to get on the bus again, right?

BROOKS: We went to Rev. Shuttlesworth house and they called my mother to let her know that we were all right. They fed us and, then we went back to the bus station. I think that was when we were there for about 18 hours, waiting, trying to get a bus driver. And, I understand that was when Bobby Kennedy called down here and told them to give us protection and give us a driver.

HUNTLEY: So, your mother didn't know you were in Birmingham, the night before then? You didn't call home?

BROOKS: Yes, she knew that we were coming, but she didn't know what had happened to us. Because in order to leave school, you know school was still going on at 00:27:00the time.

HUNTLEY: Right.

BROOKS: And, so, backing up some, we had to go to the Dean of Women to get permission.

HUNTLEY: So, you actually got permission to participate?

BROOKS: To leave school. But we were told her we weren't coming for permission, that we were coming to tell her what we were going to do. And, so then, since we were going to tell her, she figured out a way how we could do it, and so, my mother had invited Lucretia, who was from Georgia, to come and visit me.

HUNTLEY: So you were headed home and Bull Connor met you and decided that you were better suited to be back in Tennessee?

BROOKS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: So, upon your arrival back in Birmingham, you were here for 18 hours. Did you eventually get a bus driver to take you from Birmingham to Montgomery and on to Jackson?

BROOKS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What was the reception in Montgomery?

BROOKS: All hell broke loose. On our way down, it seemed to have been peaceful. We had police protection, we had helicopters flying over, but when we got to Montgomery, all the protection left. And it seems as if there were just a few White people standing around at the time. All of a sudden it looked like hell just broke loose. I don't know where all of them came from. They were angry. They started in on the news photographers first. They started beating them. And, then, after that they started after us and that's when Jim Swerd, I'm quite sure you've seen those pictures throughout the ages, was beaten, blood running everywhere. One of our congressmen, now, was on that bus, John Louis, who is 00:29:00Congressman John Louis, now. They were trying to put the girls in a cab, and I remember seeing some of the fellows jump over, which at that time to me look like it was a cliff, but it was a wall at the bus station.

HUNTLEY: Is this the footage that is shown on the Eyes On The Prize series?

BROOKS: It could be.

HUNTLEY: There was a bus that was met in Montgomery and they suggest the same thing, that the police were there and all of a sudden they disappeared.

BROOKS: Yes, that's it.

HUNTLEY: But, I know that you then were able to get the bus from Montgomery to Mississippi, right?

BROOKS: Oh, no. That was a lot of action going on in between that time.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about that action? What happened to the girls?

BROOKS: Interesting question. Okay. There were 2 or 3 White girls. Now, one, her father had picked her up. We got this cab. At that time Blacks and Whites could not ride in the same cab. Blacks would go in a Black cab and Whites go in a White cab. So, the cab driver was afraid. He was saying that he could not carry us together. And, the mob was just there then.

HUNTLEY: Were these the same girls that had been with you in Birmingham? That there parents had disappeared and you didn't know where they were when you were 00:31:00going back to Tennessee? Did they meet you back in Birmingham?

BROOKS: Now, there had been some people who joined us in Birmingham. Now, I think these were some Whites that came down to join us. Now, it may have been one of them may have been with us that left from Nashville. But, when Bull Conner carried us back to this little town on the state line, he did not take any of the White girls back, so they could have been just left there. But, at any rate, when we got to Montgomery and this cab driver was refusing to let these two Whites in.

HUNTLEY: This was a Black cab driver?

BROOKS: Yes. He was afraid. As a matter of fact, when he did get in, he was going to get out. I told him to get out, I'll drive. But, then, when I looked down it was stick shift and I could not drive a stick shift.

HUNTLEY: He got out?

BROOKS: No, he would not. I told him to get out that I would drive, but, then I 00:32:00could not drive a stick shift. So, we pleaded with him to stay in and to just take us to a Black community, any Black community and we would get out. And, so he did.

HUNTLEY: What did you do when you went to the Black community?

BROOKS: We went to the Black community and we made some phone calls to let them know. I think we called back to Nashville to let them know where we were and that we were safe. We stayed with the people in the area that we were in. The people fed us and eventually someone picked us up and carried us and we ended up there at the church. I don't know if that was the same night or the next night when they had to call in the reserves. When they was going to attack the church.

HUNTLEY: So, from the church did you go back and eventually get to Jackson, Mississippi?

BROOKS: From the church a number of us had some tests to take back at Tennessee State. So, I was one of the ones. You know we was still in school and it was toward the end of May. I went back to Tennessee State to take some final exams.

HUNTLEY: This is in '61?

BROOKS: Yes. Some of the group went on to Jackson. As a matter of fact, Lucretia went on to Jackson because she had finished her tests. As a matter of fact, she was graduating that next month. After I finished my test, then that's when I 00:34:00went on the second Freedom Ride, straight on into Jackson.

HUNTLEY: What was your reception when you arrived in Jackson?

BROOKS: Captain Ray. I never will forget his name. Captain Ray arrested all of us on the spot. And, then we went on to the Hines County Jail. And, then from Hines County Jail we went to Parchment Penitentiary.

HUNTLEY: Oh, you spent time at Parchment?

BROOKS: I never will forget that. I can't stand bugs today because of Parchment Penitentary.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about Parchment. I've heard of Parchment. What was it like to be incarcerated? How long were you there?

BROOKS: I'm thinking, it seems as if we had to stay in. We couldn't stay in pass 30 days or we wouldn't have been able to appeal our case. So, I'm thinking we stayed in right up to 25, 26, or 27 days, something like that.

HUNTLEY: What was it like in Hines County? Do you remember how long you stayed there? How was that different from Parchment's Farms?

BROOKS: Well, in Hines County we were in a large room. It must have been 5 or 6 of us in that room. At least four. The fellows was upstairs. They used to sing to us at night, we would sing to them. There were bars around the whole cell. But, now in the penitentiary, it was two of us in a room, bunk beds, in a cell. We were locked down in both places, but the penitentiary was a little different, a little colder too.

HUNTLEY: I've heard that during the summer they would turn the heat up and during the winter, they would turn the heat off?

BROOKS: Well, this was summer. And, my memories of the Parchment, well first leaving Hines County, going to Parchment, we were in the back of an old truck and I can remember that terrible ride. I don't know how far it was at the time, but it seems as if we were never going to get there. We were packed in like cattle, it was so many of us in this truck.

Some were standing and some of us were trying to root in together.

HUNTLEY: So, it was more than just the Freedom Riders?

BROOKS: It must have been. It must have been other Blacks on there too. Of course, there were no Whites in there with us. So, when we got there, I don't 00:37:00know why we had flip flops on, I didn't leave Nashville with flip flops on. But, they took those.

HUNTLEY: So, you had no shoes?

BROOKS: That's right. And I remember having to walk on the concrete and they kept the lights on at night. I remember that and the little bugs. In Nassau, Bahamas, we call them sand flies. It could have been some type of sand fly or just some type of little bug that can come through the screen.

HUNTLEY: But, that was your most vivid memory?

BROOKS: Yes, and, then, we hadn't washed our hair in a long time. And, we used to cover up at night with the sheet and it seems as if the bugs would still get in the sheet with us. One thing I remember. It looks like it was the governor's 00:38:00birthday or something and they gave us cake and it was real salty. I hadn't thought about that in years.

HUNTLEY: So, they added salt to the cake?

BROOKS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Did you do any work?

BROOKS: No. We didn't do any work. Now, some of those later, that went on the farm, did work.

HUNTLEY: You were finishing up your senior or junior year?

BROOKS: That was my senior year.

HUNTLEY: Were you a member of SNCC?

BROOKS: Yes, I helped to form SNCC.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about that. You helped to form SNCC, that's important. Initially they had a meeting in North Carolina.

BROOKS: And, we had another in Atlanta, so I was with that one in Atlanta.

HUNTLEY: Tell me about that experience. What was it like starting an organization that would become world renowned?

BROOKS: What I remember about SNCC was just being so excited to see all of the students from look like around the world, I guess it might have been just around the south.

HUNTLEY: Black and White students?

BROOKS: Yes, Black and White students. And the changes that we were going to make. Our philosophy and the philosophy of the adult group then, at that time. There was an adult group with the SCLC, Dr. King's organization. It was just how we were going to change the situation for the Blacks.

HUNTLEY: So, there was a real urgency for change?

BROOKS: Oh, yes.

HUNTLEY: And, being young at that time, you felt you could change the world?

BROOKS: Oh, yes, we could change it overnight.

HUNTLEY: How was the chemistry between the younger people of SNCC and those older folk in SCLC?

BROOKS: Well, we had more contact at that time with the Nashville adult, that was Dr. Calley Miller Smith. This SCLC at that time was not, they were just getting started so we didn't really have that much contact at that early part with them. Our strong contact was with the Nashville Movement, adult movement that became a part of SCLC. And, so, they didn't want us to get hurt and they 00:41:00wanted us to just move a little slower. Of course, we were ready to go then because we were going to do it overnight. We used to call a meeting and meet early in the morning because we knew a lot of them was not going to get up and come to a meeting and we would have passed things. But, I can remember looked like C. T. Vivian, of course, was there at the time and he was just going to change right with us overnight.

HUNTLEY: Did James Foreman have any involvement in that part of the struggle that you were involved in?

BROOKS: You're talking about with CORE? No. He was not involved at that time. Now, he came on maybe a year or so later. How we met him was in Chicago. And, 00:42:00this was after I got out of jail in Mississippi. I went through Nashville and picked up some of my things and sent the rest of them on back to my mother here in Birmingham. We went to Chicago to raise money. He was involved then with the Fayetteville, Tennessee or Arkansas.

HUNTLEY: North Carolina.

BROOKS: He was involved with that. And, so then some of us thought that he would do well with SNCC at that time.

HUNTLEY: So, you all sort of recruited him?

BROOKS: Yes, to come with SNCC.

HUNTLEY: Well, how long did you work with SNCC?

BROOKS: Now, I got married also during that time. So we were with SNCC and Dr. King's movement because SNCC didn't have any money. The adult group had the 00:43:00money. Not that we were with the adult group because they had the money, but they could support the programs. We were with both. I guess it must have been about three years. Maybe 2 to 3 years.

HUNTLEY: SNCC was organized in 1960 and, then in '61 the Freedom Rides came through and SNCC had recruited students to go into Mississippi and in '62, '63 and '64 particularly with the Summer Project?

BROOKS: Yes, the summer project and the voter registration?

HUNTLEY: Right.

BROOKS: Well, I was not with SNCC at that time. I was working at that time in 00:44:00the north.

HUNTLEY: Where in the north?

BROOKS: A number of us felt that we needed to have been involved in the economic side of it.

And, then, there was some that felt, you know that was working over on this end. And, so, I was in Ohio, in Detroit, in Chicago. And, then, even down with Robert Williams.

HUNTLEY: In North Carolina?

BROOKS: In North Carolina. We went down to see...

HUNTLEY: Robert Williams, being the president of the Monroe, North Carolina branch of the NAACP believed in the necessity to defend oneself?

BROOKS: That's right.

HUNTLEY: He got in trouble with the national NAACP as a result of that. Were you 00:45:00involved with him at that particular time?

BROOKS: When you say involved with him at that particular time, we were down there.

HUNTLEY: So, you were going to different places assisting people with different kinds of things that they were doing?

BROOKS: That's right. He asked for help.

HUNTLEY: Okay.

BROOKS: Dr. King, at that time, and Paul Brooks, which we got married out of Robert's house.

They was asked for help. Paul went to Dr. King and asked him if he could go down and see what was going on down there. And, so that's how a number of us then went down there to help Robert. As a matter of fact, we were down there when he had to leave the country. When he was accused of kidnaping a couple.

HUNTLEY: That's very interesting because, of course, at that particular time, the Movement is sort of escalating. It's becoming more aggressive.

BROOKS: That's right. And, we are really skipping here now, too.

HUNTLEY: Yes. In terms of how that whole process was going, in 1960 was non-violent, direct action...he had made a decision that he was going to defend himself and the community. That created a problem in that organization anyway. And, then he had to leave North Carolina. Were you guys there when he actually left?

BROOKS: Yes. But, backing up some. Before that, there were non-violent demonstrations. His group was protecting the non-violent demonstrators. We were there during that riot. As a matter of fact, I think that was my second time of being afraid, when I called Dr. Kelly Miller Smith to tell him at that time what was going on and that they need to get someone in there because we were down under the bed. There was a lot of shooting going on.

HUNTLEY: What was the first time that you were afraid?

BROOKS: Well, I think I was a little afraid when Bull Connor put us out at a building on the state line, in Ardmore, AL, and told us it was a train station, and we could go back to Nashville, TN. We found out that the building was not a train station but a warehouse.

HUNTLEY: Where they dropped you off?

BROOKS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Were you involved in any of the demonstrations in Birmingham?

BROOKS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: During the April-May, 1963, were you here then?

BROOKS: No. My time was before that. This had to have been, as a matter of fact, I called my brother the other day to ask him because I was talking to a lady and she couldn't pinpoint the year I was talking about. This was before we came in here on the freedom ride. So, this had to be '59 or '60. I was arrested at Loveman's. My brother, Louis Burks was the look-out.

HUNTLEY: What were you arrested for?

BROOKS: Sitting in at the lunch counter.

HUNTLEY: You and a number of others?

BROOKS: No.

HUNTLEY: Were you alone?

BROOKS: I don't know if there were a number of others at that lunch counter. But, then I'm thinking that there was a number of places that we were going into that particular day. I think I was just sent into Loveman's.

HUNTLEY: Was this as a result of the Alabama Christian Movement?

BROOKS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Rev. Shuttlesworth?

BROOKS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: And, you were arrested?

BROOKS: Right. And, we went to trial.

HUNTLEY: Do you remember how long you were in jail at that time?

BROOKS: I'm thinking it was overnight.

HUNTLEY: I think we have talked about probably up to 1963-64 or so. What happens after that period when you were so actively involved with SNCC and SCLC? How does that period of your life end? Do you simply drop out of the Movement? Or, now that you're living up north, you simply go back, and you get a job?

BROOKS: Well, we don't drop out, we move on. My husband, at that time, we got 00:50:00married in a little town called Lancaster, South Carolina. As a matter of fact, they have on my marriage certificate "White." They had to cross it out and put "Colored" on there because when he called in he had been out at East St. Louis, I guess he sounded like he was White. But, we felt that we needed a financial base. Then, we went looking into ways that we could make and raise money. He invented the Afro-pick and, then, he went into business. We moved onto that and try to get the business off the ground, training Blacks, attending meetings and reprogramming.

HUNTLEY: You had mentioned earlier that some people continued in the direction they were going but you saw that as a necessity for developing something economic?

BROOKS: Right.

HUNTLEY: Were you successful in doing that, in terms of developing something that would be long lasting? I know if you developed the Afro-pick, that meant something pretty substantial.

BROOKS: It was at the time. It is not, of course, we're not producing it now. As a matter of fact, it was virtually taken. But we made money from it. We put a number of people to work.

A number of people worked with us developed things to do on their own. At one 00:52:00time we had three shifts going. But, we eventually manufactured it in Ottawa, Michigan. We started in Detroit and he received a patent on it. Any comb that was made at that time, the Afro-pick with the cover on it. If it was not ours, it was violating our patent, and you had a lot of them who did and who made good money from it. Now, we made money also, but not the type of money that should have been made from it, and not the type of things that we thought that we was able to do with it and we was fighting the big boys. It was a hard fight and it was a long fight, too.

HUNTLEY: I know as a result of your activities in the Movement, you received a placard of some sort from Dr. King, is that correct?

BROOKS: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Would you tell me just a bit about that?

BROOKS: This was received after the Freedom Ride. Dr. King had a meeting for us, and these were the students who participated in the freedom ride. I think it was all of us throughout the south. I don't remember. But, this was in Nashville, and it looks like it was at the Grand Old Opry. As a matter of fact, Mary Makeba was there. We all received a $500 scholarship. So that's what I ended up finishing Tennessee State on.

HUNTLEY: Well, you've had quite an eventful life in relationship to the Movement. Is there anything that we have not covered that you would just like to mention or talk about? People will view this from time to time.

BROOKS: I can't come up with anything, right off hand. I think we just about hit 00:54:00all of it.

HUNTLEY: Okay. Well, I just want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule to come and sit and talk with us because you have really enlightened us in relationship to the freedom rides and your activity. At some later date, we may want to sit down and talk with you again.

BROOKS: All right.

HUNTLEY: Thank you very much. BROOKS: You're welcome.