Rev. Betty Bock Interviewed on January 31, 1997

HUNTLEY: This is an interview with Reverend Betty Bock for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I'm Dr. Horace Huntley. We are presently at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. Today is January 31, 1997.

Rev. Bock I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and sit and talk with me today. Since we've known each other for so long, you can refer to me as Horace and I'll refer to you as Betty, the way we normally do. Just want to start by asking you some background questions. Where are you originally from?

BOCK: I grew up in Missouri. I lived on a farm near the town Marshall, that was our mailing address.

HUNTLEY: Marshall, Missouri. Where is that in relationship to St. Louis or Kansas City?

BOCK: It's about halfway between Kansas City and St. Louis closer to Kansas City but if you drew a straight line between the two cities you'd come pretty close 00:01:00to where I live.

HUNTLEY: You had how many siblings?

BOCK: I had one brother.

HUNTLEY: Was he older or younger?

BOCK: Four years older than I am.

HUNTLEY: Your parents, were they from Missouri?

BOCK: Yes, the farm that I grew up on my mother was born there and is now 82 and has lived there all but two years of her life.

HUNTLEY: Do you go back often?

BOCK: Oh yes, I use all my vacation time to go and see family. My brother lives in St. Louis and I have a niece there and a niece in Arizona and her husband and two boys.

HUNTLEY: So only you decided to come this far South?

BOCK: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Your father, let me ask you this first of all, your mother and father what level of education did they have?

BOCK: Mother had a high school education, and my father dropped out of school 00:02:00when he was in the fourth or fifth grade. His father was hurt in an accident and he was the oldest of the boys and it kind of fell to his responsibility to take over the farm.

HUNTLEY: What kind of work did your mother do? Did she work outside of the home?

BOCK: No, she was a homemaker.

HUNTLEY: And your father is a farmer?

BOCK: Yes.

HUNTLEY: Family owned farm?

BOCK: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What did you farm?

BOCK: Mixed farming, corn, soybeans, wheat, oats, like clover and [inaudible] for hay and usually. We always had some cattle and sometimes had pigs but always had cattle.

HUNTLEY: I guess you had the opportunity to work on the farm as well.

BOCK: You better believe it. I started milking when I was five years old. When I 00:03:00was seven or eight, I had my first bunch of chickens and saved money from my chickens to buy a cow and saved my money because I was going to go to college and be a schoolteacher. All the money from the calves from my cow went into savings to be able to go to college. I knew my parents couldn't help me go to college if I was going to be able to go I would have to do it on my own.

HUNTLEY: How young were you when you decided that, that was what you had to do?

BOCK: In the third grade, I had a teacher that I was very, very fond of. I wanted to be like her.

HUNTLEY: What was it like growing up on a farm in Missouri in the 50s and 60s?

BOCK: We were examples of urban poverty, but I never rarely realized we were 00:04:00poor because pretty much everybody around me lived in the same circumstances and went to a one room country school the first three years. The largest year there was eight in the school.

HUNTLEY: Eight in your class you mean.

BOCK: No, eight in the school. I was in the third grade before I ever had anybody in the same grade with me. Really wasn't sure whether I was going to like that or not. Little competition there.

HUNTLEY: Were there any African Americans in the area that you grew up?

BOCK: Well, after the one room school was closed there was a consolidated district, but it wasn't until high school that I was in school with African American individuals. There were three in my high school class.

HUNTLEY: Three in your class?

BOCK: Right.

HUNTLEY: A high school of what size?

BOCK: There were 42 in the graduating class.

HUNTLEY: A big school?

BOCK: Right.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school?

BOCK: I was going to say just a word about the high school experience. One of the big things about high school was that we would go on a senior trip and my class decided to go to Washington D. C. While we were there, we went to a restaurant to eat that refused to seat the two Black students who were with us and the rest of us immediately got up and walked out. But that was probably my first exposure to racial prejudice because in the community they really were a part of the community and everything so that probably was my first sensitizing to the way life was for a large portion of our country.

HUNTLEY: What year was this that you were in Washington D.C.?

BOCK: 1960.

HUNTLEY: So that was your first encounter with segregation because you had not experienced it, you had not seen that rear its head in your community.

BOCK: Right.

HUNTLEY: What about in St. Louis, did you ever go into St. Louis or Kansas City?

BOCK: The only times we went to Kansas City was if my mother had some health problems and we would go to a specialist there. We might stop and shop for shoes or something, but it was 125 miles trip and back in those days 125 miles trip was a big deal. So by the time you got there and waited to see the doctor if you were going to be able to get home to be able to milk the cows and feed the chickens, I can't remember for example of our ever going to a restaurant to eat.

HUNTLEY: That's about the size of it with me as well because I never went to a restaurant to eat. I worked in a restaurant, but I never went to a restaurant to eat before I was in the military I believe.

BOCK: We would take our lunch along with us.

HUNTLEY: We had a standing joke in our family that we would leave Birmingham going to Green County and before we would get to Bessemer my grandmother would always say bring out the bag and give me a chicken wing or something.

Betty, how active were you in extracurricular activities in your high school?

BOCK: Not all that active because they really weren't that many things at the school because most of the.at least half the students were from farms and as soon as school was out you went home because you had responsibilities there. So, 00:08:00I really can't recall any extracurricular school activities that I participated in. If you're a boy you could play basketball or football, well I did play in the band, I guess that would be an extracurricular activity.

HUNTLEY: Just a minute, when you and your class went to D.C. and you all left after your classmates were not served, what kind of discussion went on among you as a result of that?

BOCK: Initially we were very incensed. We made some suggestions that we could go back to that restaurant and do in terms of kind of making a scene out of it. Once the anger kind of subsided the sponsors of the trip I think did a good job 00:09:00of bringing us together and kind of talking about it, let Birdie and J. J. talk about what it felt like for them and we spent several hours just kind of talking about the experience and I really credit the teachers for being that insightful to really turn something like that into a learning experience that most of us had first experience with this kind of thing and we just couldn't believe. Birdie had been the star in the senior play, we couldn't believe.

HUNTLEY: That, that would happen to Birdie.

BOCK: Yes, don't they know who Birdie is.

HUNTLEY: What did you do after high school?

BOCK: Went to college at Central Missouri State University, it was about 70 00:10:00miles from home.

HUNTLEY: What was that transition like from high school to college?

BOCK: Couldn't believe where all of these people had come from. Initially my first year was a big adjustment to those kinds of surroundings. I really had led a very sheltered life in terms of being exposed to just the things about the world.

Because finances were so tight for me the college had a house that had been converted into a cooperative living house where there were four kitchens and there were eight of us to a kitchen and we did our own cooking, cleaning and it made the cost of going to college less than half what it would have been had I stayed in a dormitory. With there being only three or two of us and our eating out meals together there was a real sense of community but that was also a 00:11:00smaller arena to move from more remote kind of thing into a college scene as if I had been at a dormitory that had several hundred students in it.

HUNTLEY: This was in the early to mid 60s?

BOCK: Right, 1960 was my freshman year, I graduated in 1964.

HThis was also the period that the sit-ins had started. The Freedom Riders would make their journey here in Birmingham. And other places there would be selective buying campaigns and then in Birmingham the demonstrations in '63. How did that impact upon your environment at the time?

BOCK: Not all that much. I really was not particularly sensitive to social issues. I guess you would term. The situation in Arkansas and Governor Falbus I 00:12:00remember that making an impression and again it was kind of one disbelief that people really did those kinds of things but remote enough. I remember the bombing of the church, but we didn't subscribe to a newspaper, we didn't have a television, generally when we listed to the radio it was more entertainment shows and we didn't really listen to the radio that much. Up until I went to college. . .

HUNTLEY: So, you were very isolated?

BOCK: I mean our poverty wasn't as bad as for example what you would have found in Appalachia, but we had many of the dynamics of rural poverty.

HUNTLEY: When you arrived on campus and you saw all of these other people coming in with different kinds of ideas and cultures how did that impact upon this young woman whose coming from rural Missouri and probably meeting people from the city, the inner cities all around the country. How did that impact upon you?

BOCK: You know I don't think there were many from inner city situations.

HUNTLEY: So, there were not many Black kids in other words?

BOCK: There were a number, but they were very much academically achieving in terms of being in class. I don't remember really what the percentage it was, it would have been a very small percentage because there was not a high ratio of African American individuals. I really don't know what Kansas City was at that 00:14:00particular point. The two African American people that I knew best both came from Kansas City but that was kind of the extent of it.

HUNTLEY: So, what was your major?

BOCK: Elementary education.

HUNTLEY: So, you aspired to go into the classroom. After college what did you do?

BOCK: Well there were a couple of things that happened in college that we might want to make reference to. I'm Baptist and one of the things that our denomination had at that particular time, I'm not sure if they still do or not, was called better speakers tournament, where you were given a selected list of topics that you could develop I don't remember how many minutes, 7 minutes, 8 minutes, 10 minutes, something like that. You could compete on the association 00:15:00level which was kind of the county and then there was a state competition and the winners of the state competition went to Ridgecrest, North Carolina, which is where one of the two national conference centers for the Southern Baptist denominations are located. I entered that speakers contest and went on to win the state contest which meant that I would go to Ridgecrest. I was working in Girls Auxiliary Camps, the girl's organization in our denomination was called Girls Auxiliary. During my summers in college I worked in G. A. camps primarily ones that needed some outside help if there was going to be a camping experience for kids. So, I didn't have to be back in Missouri for camp until Monday and I finished in North Carolina on Wednesday so I decided that this would be a chance 00:16:00to travel through the South and see what that was like.

My main interest there being denomination, or the Baptist Home Mission Board is in Atlanta. Women's Missionary Union is here in Birmingham, and I had met people from both of those, I was very active in the Baptist Student Union on campus. At that point I was thinking about seminary as possibly an option, so I was going to go to Atlanta and visit people I knew at the Women's Missionary Union and come to Birmingham and visit Billy Peyton and Elaine Dixson and visit the seminary in New Orleans and head back. Again, I'm straight off the farm. So, I rode to Atlanta with a group from La Grange, Georgia and we got in, it was probably about 8 or 9 o'clock at night and I had assumed I would go find a hotel or motel and go down to the mission the next morning. Well here were all these homeless people and various people sitting around on the curb and I believed 00:17:00that I would just stay in the bus station all night because I was afraid to go out. The next morning as I asked where there was a restaurant or place to get some breakfast and they gave me directions and it was also the direction of Women's Missionary Union. So, as I rounded the corner to go to the restaurant a group of Black people were being loaded onto this semi-trailer truck, mean it had a load thing. There had been at sit-in at this restaurant and they had been arrested and were being carted off.

So, I believed I wasn't hungry for breakfast and went on to the Home Mission Board to visit the people and came home to Birmingham and the Greyhound bus station was just by. The Women's Missionary Union at that time was located at the corner of 20th Street and 6th Avenue North and so it was not long until 5 00:18:00o'clock so I went ahead and left my luggage at the bus station to walk on up to the Women's Missionary Union to see and meet Billie and Elaine. Well they invited me to spend the night with them. So, we couldn't find a parking place, so Billie was going to drive around the block while I went in to get my suitcase. In front of me in line was a Black lady who had a child probably two and a half, three years old and one that she was carrying in her arms. The man at the bus, where you got the luggage, told her to step aside.

HUNTLEY: Was this a White man or Black man?

BOCK: A White man. I said but she was in front of me in line. He said, she's a dirty nigger she can wait. I said no, she was in line. This I really didn't see it as a racial situation. I had simply been taught when somebody was in front of you in line. . .

HUNTLEY: This was not a demonstration?

BOCK: No, I'm pure naivete off of the farm. So, it never occurred to me, I'm your college aged individual who obviously does not have a southern accent in a bus station in 1963. It turned out that guy had a button to push to notify police that something was going on at the bus station. The next thing we knew five carloads of police officer's descent upon the bus station.

HUNTLEY: What year was this?

BOCK: Summer of 1963. It would have been in June. I'm not sure. . .

HUNTLEY: Demonstrations just finished.

BOCK: Fortunately Billie and Elaine had found a parking place by this time and couldn't figure out why it was taking me so long to get my luggage and came in 00:20:00and identified that yes I was with them that I would be in their presence while I was in Birmingham so they had to sign a paper that they would be my caretakers. The next morning, I had to notify the police department that I was leaving town. There was a police officer standing there to see me get on the bus and head on my way. So, I just couldn't believe this, it just blew my mind so to speak. So, then we stopped in Mississippi, I don't remember the town, it was a small place and I had gone to the restroom first and when I came out to the lunch counter all the seats were filled except one. There were two seats at the end of the counter and a young Black man was sitting in one of them and then 00:21:00there was this vacant seat. So, I go sit down and the waitress says to me if you don't move I'm going to have you arrested.

HUNTLEY: Talking to you? Was this the Black counter or was it just because you were sitting next to him?

BOCK: I said well I don't know what I'm doing wrong. And she said well we may not be able to keep the niggers from sitting at the lunch counter so we passed an ordinance that Whites can't sit by them when they're at the lunch counter. So I got up and believed I wasn't hungry for lunch. After Atlanta, Birmingham and Mississippi experience I believed that I was ready to head on back to Missouri. I rode to New Orleans got off the bus, got me a ticket to Missouri and headed to Missouri and said I'll never come back to the South again.

HUNTLEY: So that was it. What were the responses when you got back to Missouri to tell people about your experiences?

BOCK: I didn't talk about it. I didn't want my parents to be aware that I had 00:22:00been in that kind of danger. That would not have gone over well. I had learned fairly early it was better that they knew some things and no other things, so I really didn't talk to anybody about it.

HUNTLEY: So, you then finished up at your college in '64, what did you do after that?

BOCK: I went to seminary at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Ft. Worth.

HUNTLEY: Ft. Worth, Texas. And you were there for what two years?

BOCK: Yes.

HUNTLEY: What was the atmosphere in Ft. Worth at that time?

BOCK: We were pretty isolated. I was financially having a very hard time so I generally other than going to church did not go off the campus the first year. We had a cafeteria on campus and [inaudible] there were a I want to say two or 00:23:00three African American students that were not from overseas and then there were several from various countries in Africa, but they represented a pretty small group and were very well accepted on campus. Then my second year I took a social work class and part of the requirements for that class was that you had to do some practical experience kinds of things. Tarrant Baptist Association had a mission center in one of the public housing communities. So, I spent some time working. That was really my first introduction to inner city poverty.

HUNTLEY: You had majored in elementary education, why did you determine that you would go to seminary rather than go to teach after graduate school?

BOCK: I felt called by God to go into a church related vocation. My expectation was that, I think I made reference a while ago that the program in our denomination for young girls is called Girls Auxiliary and that I would become a Girls Auxiliary director of some state or some way working that way to take advantage of my elementary background. Elementary age kids were what I really enjoyed working with. So that's kind of what I expected my vocation to evolve into.

HUNTLEY: How did this first experience with the inner city, how did that impact upon you?

BOCK: I don't think I would have been able to verbalize what bothered me at that 00:25:00particular point but it was really an unsettling experience in that it was a very paternalistic program in which I felt like the staff people weren't that they exactly looked down on people in the community but. . .

HUNTLEY: You just got a feeling of that?

BOCK: Yes, and I ended up not working more than was required for this particular class because there was just something about it that didn't settle right with me and I hadn't been exposed to any other models that might have helped me know, that yes there are other ways of doing these kinds of things. But that was my first experience, you know, the inner city poverty didn't particularly bother me. Again I think I pretty much identified by this time I realized that I had been poor when I was growing up. So I think there was probably some 00:26:00identification there.

HUNTLEY: So, you were there in Ft. Worth for two years. After your two years, you were finishing up seminary then what?

BOCK: I mentioned a while ago that the national headquarters of the Women's Missionary Union was here in Birmingham and in January before I graduated in May they offered me a position here as the National Director for the Young Women's Auxiliary which was for individuals, young women 16 to 24 years of age and that meant coming to live in Birmingham.

HUNTLEY: Is that young White women or young period? BOCK: No, White women.

HUNTLEY: And when you got this offer to come to Birmingham, what were you thinking about?

BOCK: The racial [inaudible] I just didn't know if I wanted to live in Birmingham or not. They said well a lot of progress had been made. Actually, one 00:27:00of the leaders on the White adult side in Birmingham was a Ms. McMurry who was the executive director of Women's Missionary Union. Prior to this time, I think in the 50s on into the 60s.. .she died unexpectedly of a heart attack I want to say two or three years before I came to Birmingham so I never had the chance to meet her but heard many stories of her going to some interracial meetings where she was spit upon as she would go in and come out by White individuals so Women's Missionary Union saw itself to be primarily because of Ms. McMurray and 00:28:00her involvement in the Birmingham racial situation saw themselves to be very progressive in terms of those kinds of issues.

HUNTLEY: When you arrived in Birmingham, and of course I'm sure you were thinking about what had taken place. How did you deal with that situation with making yourself comfortable with the decision that you had made to come to Birmingham?

BOCK: It really wasn't all that bad because in terms of Ms. McMurry's leadership I felt that Women's Missionary Union was an acceptable kind of thing. I was very excited and challenged by it. I mean to come straight out of seminary and be with the national director was certainly an honor to be, in fact I was the first person who they had hired who had not been a state level person before coming to 00:29:00the national office. Also, my job involved a lot of travel so I actually was in Birmingham very little.

HUNTLEY: Around the state?

BOCK: No, I traveled all through the United States.

HUNTLEY: What community did you move into?

BOCK: The summer, I moved here in June of 1966 and that summer I lived in a room in a house in Eastlake and a friend of mine from seminary had been in summer mission work in Washington state and we had planned while she was going to be teaching school at. . . A. G. Gaston Junior High?

HUNTLEY: Yes, in Roosevelt City.

BOCK: Yes, and once she got back from summer missions that we would get an apartment together and live together and we ended up living in Homewood close to where Lakeshore Drive and Green Springs come together.

HUNTLEY: What church did you attend?

BOCK: I joined First Baptist Church. The reason I joined First Baptist when I was in seminary I took a class in ministry in the metropolitan areas. Interestingly that would have been 1966 because it was the last semester I was there, and it was the first class that had been offered in the Southern Baptist Ministry on urban ministry which now just blows my mind. But this was the best class I ever took in seminary, the teacher was exciting we researched creative and innovative ministries and churches of all denominations throughout the 00:31:00United States and just really turned me onto the inner city. I mean it was kind of from that point on that the inner-city situation was where there was much more opportunity for creative things and new ideas and to try things out than traditional suburban situations.

HUNTLEY: You got here in Birmingham you didn't waste too much time you got involved in the community.

BOCK: Right.

HUNTLEY: What kind of activities were you initially involved in?

BOCK: I guess the first and one of the most significant was one of the things that Women's Missionary was producing Mission Action Guides and there was one on internationals, one on juvenile delinquency and one on nonreaders. First I worked on one for economically disadvantaged. Then I was assigned to work on the 00:32:00one for nonreaders and to make a long story short in the process of unloading those Mission Action guides off of the truck and into our storage area I realized that our janitor who was helping unload materials couldn't not read anything that was on the side of the boxes. I thought here I am sitting behind my desk, writing materials, going all over the United States on nonreaders, and here is somebody in my own building.

HUNTLEY: What made you realize he couldn't read?

BOCK: He asked me something, I don't remember the exact question, but it was something about what was printed on the side of the box. It kind of took me a second to figure out why he didn't know because it was right there in front of him and it actually was a little bit after that, that I realized that Mr. Gooden couldn't read what was there. So, I talked to some of the people in my church 00:33:00and found four or five other people who were kind of interested in a literacy ministry. I contacted our whole mission board in Atlanta, and they identified a lady living in Birmingham who is trained to the Lawbook Literacy Method. So, I began then from the time I was in Birmingham during my lunch hours began teaching him to read and write. That led into a significant experience in that he had nine children and all but one got college educations even though he was a nonreader. He had prided himself that he had never used any form of public assistance, this was really a big thing to him. [inaudible] husband had a spell in which he suffered from amnesia and they ended up finding him in Mobile he 00:34:00didn't know where he was or who he was, and she had three children. He was trying to financially support her and her family during Anthony's illness and decided that he was going to have to apply for food stamps. So, I told him that I would be glad to go with him to apply for food stamps.

At the food stamp center, you had to walk down this alley and go in a side door which gave you a great sense of dignity and respect, so it turned out that they were closed during lunch, so we waited until they came back. We were the first people in, three or four White applicants came in after we did and we sat there as the social worker would come pick up the file look out over the group, put the file down, pick up another one and all of the White people were called for 00:35:00service before we were. So finally, our name was called and I'm not sure how the case worker became aware that he was not able to write his name. At that point, if he saw his name written out, he could write it but he hadn't completely learned to spell it. So, the worker pushed the paper around and said, okay go ahead and put your O X down here. And I said, he can write his name. I got a piece of paper out of the waste basket and wrote his name out and gave him the pen and he signed his name. This was just a tremendously emotional experience. One, it was the first time I had experienced the prejudice that he had experienced. I knew exactly what was happening with those folders. So, as we went out we were walking back, and I was to struggle with what do I say. Finally, I said, all I can say is I'm sorry and for the first time I understand. 00:36:00The bond which we felt together was just tremendous.

The very next day, again, the W.M.U. Building was the corner of 20th street and 6th Avenue and the food stamp center would have been at 22nd between 8th and 9th Avenue North. The next day I heard some commotion around lunch time down on the street and looked out and a group of African American individuals were having a march on the food stamp center and tears just streamed down my face because for the first time again I knew, and again it was only one small experience for me where it was much of their experience, but that proved to be a very pivotal point in my life.

HUNTLEY: At this point in Birmingham, there had been efforts to desegregate 00:37:00churches or to integrate churches, what was First Baptists' role in that?

BOCK: Back in, I'm not sure of the year, but the pastor's name was Earl Stallings and I'm not sure whether it was in the 50s or 60s, I almost want to say it was more like '58, '59, '60, somewhere in there. There were a group of African American individuals who came to the service and Dr. Stallings invited them in. They were seated and did participate in the service. There was a good bit of national publicity of Dr. Stallings standing at the door shaking hands and in a welcoming stance. But that had been sometime earlier.

HUNTLEY: So, by the time that you got there, were there Black members of First Baptist?

BOCK: No.

HUNTLEY: Were there Blacks that attended periodically?

BOCK: Well, not until the tutoring program came about.

HUNTLEY: Were there every any difficulties between people within the church to accept Black visitors?

BOCK: Well, there weren't any.

HUNTLEY: There were none?

BOCK: There were not any until February of 1970.

HUNTLEY: You were also involved with something in Central City, Metropolitan Garden.

BOCK: Right, that's all part of the same episode.

HUNTLEY: At that point though, Metropolitan Garden was predominately White.

BOCK: All White.

HUNTLEY: How did that change take place, what was going on?

BOCK: In 1968, the pastor who was Dr. James Landus announced his resignation and 00:39:00that he was going to Richardson, Texas, and he was the fifth pastor in twelve years to resign and the church panicked.

HUNTLEY: This is First Baptist?

BOCK: Right, and so a group of the male leadership went to Dr. Landus and said, if you will stay, we will give leadership to the church moving to the suburbs. To show their commitment to do this, they took an option on a piece of property that I think is where Brookwood Baptist Church is now, I'm not a hundred percent on that, that was the exact site but it was to be located in Mt. Brook and I'm pretty sure that it was that site. Well he went ahead and left anyway, they had the option on the land I want to say for three or four months before they had to put any money down, so the committee was appointed and one of the things that 00:40:00they did was to visit the Oak Hearst Baptist Church in Atlanta, Georgia, who had saved money to build a new sanctuary and came to decide to make repairs on the sanctuary and to stay in the community and develop ministries with that community. They were so touched by this experience that the committee came back and worded what became known as the 68 commitments which were to stay downtown to welcome all who would come, learned or unlearned, rich or poor, it did not use the terminology Black and White. The committee felt like if those terms were used, it would not pass and they were wanting to buy time. They felt the statement was strong enough that it could be used to get a new pastor who was oriented to ministry in the community and kind of give some time to try to bring 00:41:00individuals along. So those commitments were passed and at this time I was still working at Women's Missionary Union and served as Volunteer, what we called, Youth Coordinator. I couldn't teach a Sunday School class because I was out of town too much so I could plan youth activities when I was going to be in town.

We could have a retreat; we could have Sunday night fellowships and stuff. So, the evening of the day that we voted the 68 commitments, we had a youth fellowship and the kids were all turned on and said is there something youth can do about this or is this another adult only. I said well why don't a group of us go down and talk to the principal of Powell Elementary School and see. So, I took six of the young people down there, I've forgotten his first name, but Mr. Star was his last name. Of course, the first thing he suggested was a tutoring program, and the kids said yes, we can do that. And that fall was the time, I 00:42:00guess it was during the summer that the first Black families moved into what was then Central City, now Metropolitan Gardens. So, we began a tutoring program on Monday and Wednesday afternoons with kids from Central City. The new pastor Dr. Jeffery Gilmore arrived; I want to say in September. It was almost exactly at the same time we started the tutoring program. The first Wednesday night that the tutoring kids came, some of the adult members of the church came for Wednesday night church activities and saw these Black children and became incensed and went to the new pastor and said you're to stop this.

One of the things that I had done and I didn't really know why I did it but it 00:43:00was a wise move. I had actually presented it to the deacons to vote on and had it voted on at the church that we start this ministry. So, Dr. Gilmore's response was that the church voted to do this, I can't as a pastor change something that the church voted to do. So, things kind of leveled off. Interestingly enough that Sunday school class is called the Cosmopolitan Sunday School Class. In the second Sunday of February, 12 of our tutoring children showed up for Sunday School and 14 teachers resigned rather than teach those children. But we had them all, the teachers, all replaced by the next Sunday, so the children didn't know that they had created a problem. Then in April of 1970, Winnifred Bryant and Twilla visited the church for the first time.

At the time, not knowing what was ahead made special effort to keep her 00:44:00[inaudible] we know had recently I was going through some things and came across we have framed our new sanctuary. But they came. Then in May, they presented themselves for membership. Now the by-laws of the church stated if a prospective member was objected to it was to be referred to the deacons and pastor to determine if the objections were scriptural and valid. So, Dr. Gilmore ruled that it had to be a stated objection, it couldn't just be x number of people raising their hands saying that they objected because in order to determine if it was scriptural and valid it had to be a stated objection. So finally, one of the men said, well, I will state my objection to the deacons. I won't state it to this whole congregation. So Dr. Gilmore accepted that and the deacons meeting 00:45:00was the next night and his objection was that her motivation was wrong that she was coming just to make trouble. It ended up that the deacons voted 16 to 14 to recommend Ms. Bryant for membership and 17 to 13, one person changed their vote when they came to vote on the child.

As it happened, the Baptist World Alliance was being held in Tokyo, Japan, and the church months before this had voted to send Dr. Gilmore and he was going to take a six-week tour of various countries on the way back. So, a decision was made that they not be present for membership until Dr. Gilmore got back from his trip. So then towards the end of June there was a church conference in which the 00:46:00segregationist had completely organized themselves this was the first time they began bringing in people from who were all segregationists people and the final motion was that Dr. Gilmore and I be fired immediately, that I have 24 hours to clean out my office and that when he got back from Japan he would have 24 hours to clean out his office. The vote, there was a two-vote margin. A motion was 00:47:00made by Judge H. H. Brooms who was the one who ruled in the Autherine Lucy case with George Wallace stood and recommended that the motion be tabled because it was not only un- Christian to fire somebody when they weren't there to answer the charges against them it was also un-American. An un-American helped us, the un-Christian wouldn't have gotten us anywhere. So, by a two-vote margin, I ended up not being fired that night. Let me back up, I forgot something significant.

The day that the 12 tutoring children came to Sunday School and totally unconnected in terms of their time, the following Monday was a desegregation deadline for the Birmingham school system. There was a group of White citizens who organized themselves as Parents Concerned who were opposing the integration 00:48:00of the school. That Sunday afternoon there was a big Parents Concerned rally at Municipal Auditorium with George Wallace speaking. He wanted to make the point that if we let Blacks in, they would simply try to take over and said, why just this morning a group of Black people tried to take over a fine old Baptist church. Twelve tutoring kids, but that propelled our situation into the John Burchers became involved, the Wallace people became involved, a little bit of Klan, we were never able really to document a lot of Klan involvement. But it was at that particular point that threats began to be made much of it focused on Dr. Gilmore and myself particularly going on until after Ms. Bryant and Twilla presented themselves for membership. Probably the most creative threat that each 00:49:00of us got was a drawing of a gun but where the thing is that where you cock it the barrel was coming out there so if you pulled the trigger you shot yourself. At the church, bomb threats were called in twice that we had to vacate the church.

HUNTLEY: On Sunday mornings?

BOCK: No, they were both Wednesday night activities. The first time that I got a threat was the night that my car was going to have a bomb in it. I went out the next morning and the air had been let out about halfway on the tires of my car. The gas cap was missing, and the little flap thing was open, so it was enough to know that somebody had been messing with my car. I called the Homewood police 00:50:00and asked them if they would come and check my car for a bomb. So, the officers wanted to know what I was involved in that somebody might want to put a bomb in my car. I said, well, I'm involved in the First Baptist Church situation. To which the guy looked at me and just kind of put his face up against mine and said, if you're a dirty nigger lover you deserve what you get. I hope you won't bother us again. So I knew that I could not rely on the Homewood police to provide any protection or help for me. So that became a pretty significant dynamic there. They would do things such as make it obvious that they were following me home, the scariest one came one night, the parking lot was over to one side of the apartments and there were two or three men leaning against the 00:51:00trunk of their cars. There was a man on each side of my door just leaning up against the wall.

They never laid a hand on me but to walk past them after, first of all knowing I was being followed and to walk past them to get to my apartment was a pretty scary thing particularly knowing that I could not count on the Homewood police for any help at that particular point. The thing I think that got to Dr. Gilmore and I upset the most, well for him, he had a nine-year-old daughter and the calls that his daughter would be harmed were the ones that gave him greatest pause. The threats to rape me were the ones that bothered me. I really didn't 00:52:00think they would kill me, but there was a real degree to which I expected to be raped before the whole situation was over. So that was more of the fear that I lived with than being killed.

HUNTLEY: Trying times. Did you ever have any physical difficulties with anyone as a result of that?

BOCK: No, they never touched me.

HUNTLEY: You had the opportunity to meet and hear President Pitts from Miles.

BOCK: Yes, that comes a bit later. After this motion had been made of being tabled whether Dr. Gilmore and I would be fired or not. He got back first of August and the church conference to decide if they were going to fire us or not. 00:53:00It lasted eight hours, went until 2:30 in the morning and finally by a four-vote margin, we doubled over the last time, they voted not to fire us. So, then Ms. Bryant and Twilla were presented for membership on September 27, 1970. The by-laws state that if objection had been raised in regard to someone it then took a two-thirds vote not a simple majority for that person to be objected. So, when the vote was taken we had a majority vote, but we did not have the two-thirds vote.

Interestingly Baptist prided themselves so much on abiding by the vote of the majority, in actuality both times a majority of the people voted to accept them but the first time objection was raised which threw out the majority vote and in the second case a two-thirds requirement was not reached as compared to a simple majority.

So, Dr. Gilmore and I resigned immediately, and Dr. Burn Williamson stood and suggested that all who agreed with Dr. Gilmore and I the stance was

un-Christian and unethical to go with him to the education building to close the service in prayer. At that point, approximately 300 people got up and walked out of the service in protest of that. This group had already had a few meetings with the name of the Company of the Committed. Elton Trueblood, about that time, had written a book by the name of The Company of the Committed, and Dr.

Williamson had been touched by this book and that's kind of how that name came about. As it happened there had been a covered dish lunch planned for the noon 00:55:00meal of the day that the walk out took place. So, we gathered in the basement of the dinner hall and Dr. Williams said, anybody who just wants to say anything at this point, the floor is open.

The one that I remember the most was this lady who had to be in her 80s, Ms. Edny, stood and said, I just want to say I've been a member of this church for. . .I want to say 55 years, it was just incredible, and this is the greatest day in my life. Part of what have been wondrous about her was that she taught one of the elderly women's Sunday school classes. And in one of the business meetings she had taken a very strong stance and quoted scripture in terms of the brotherhood and sisterhood of all people and her Sunday school class had gotten up and walked out on her that Sunday. In the meantime, I had left Women's Missionary Union and come on the staff of First Baptist, I had forgotten to say 00:56:00that in there, we had one teacher in the youth division who was not open to the African American people coming in so she resigned. The 11th and 12th grade youth voted to have Ms. Edny to come be their Sunday school teacher, so that was just one of the really neat experiences in all of that. So finally, Dr. Williamson said we are going to have to see whether we are going to have the resources to form a church or where do we go from here.

In terms of what kind of money, we can look at to operate with, I'd like for you to tear off a piece of your bulletin or somewhere and write down how much money you think you can commit to the formation of a new church.

And so, people, you know it was no credit cards or things, you just tore off 00:57:00what you had. I forgot what the amount was I want to say it was in the range of $100,000 was committed that day and the feeling was that yes, we can move forward then with forming the church. Dr. Gilmore both offered our resignation as of November 1, feeling that 30 days is appropriate. It became an issue because it turned out that November 1 was a Sunday and were our resignations effect at 12:01 a.m. or 11:59 p.m. because it would determine whether we were going to be there for that service or not. So we made our resignations effective October 31. I specified in mine 11:59 p.m. because we had developed a coffee house ministry that was just going great and if it was 11:59 p.m. we could keep the coffee house open one more night. So, we began to search for a place to have 00:58:00our worship service. We contacted several churches, most of them in the downtown, Southside area and we were told by some that their church could split over whether or not to let us use their facility or not. So, we decided that we would discontinue approaching people.

It was obvious from the news media that we were in need of a place to worship and finally on the Wednesday night before November 1, it was worked out for us to use the Birmingham Baptist Association, which at the time was at 20th Street and 8th Avenue South. We had our first service together on November 1, and the next couple of weeks we came up with the name and decided that we were going to incorporate and we wanted to put the executive director of the Alabama Baptist 00:59:00Convention in a stance of being supportive and we proposed a couple of dates to him and it was well known he already [inaudible] So finally Dr. Gilmore said, well you tell us a date that you're free and we'll set the thing for that. So, on the 21st of December 1970, we incorporated and were dedicated as a church. The gentleman from the Alabama Baptist Convention got up and went to great links saying now I can only represent one person. I'm not here to represent Alabama Baptist. I came to represent my wife. Dr. Lucid Pitts came right after Dr. Bagley and stood and said I just want to say what indeed an honor it is to stand here and represent the 300,000 Black individuals of our community. The contrast was just beautiful. I mean that's one of the most wonderful moments of my whole 01:00:00life was when Dr. Pitts stood and said, you know I've jotted down some notes, but I want to speak from the heart at this particular point. There was not a dry eye in that place when he finished.

HUNTLEY: What was his topic? What did he talk about?

BOCK: He really didn't have a title as such. He just spoke of the pilgrimage of the Black community and made reference to a few of his experiences as a Black person growing up and the call to be brothers and sisters it was somewhat general and then the sermon was delivered by a Dr. Bill Hull, who's been at Samford University more recently. He used the same approach that Susan 01:01:00[inaudible] in her book The Witnessing Community in terms of the called out remnant that remained faithful to God throughout the history and blended the forming of covenant into that change of Biblical group, that remnant group, who were called out to be faithful to God. So that was a great day. Then some of the pastors in the association began circulating petitions that we would not be able to use the Baptist building. So, Rabbi Grafman who at that time who was a Rabbi at Temple Emmanuel called and said we understand that you all need a place to worship.

The synagogue would love for you to share our facilities. So, for two and half years we worshiped at Temple Emmanuel. They had Hebrew school on Sunday mornings, so we had five different places in a several block area of Temple 01:02:00Emmanuel were we had Sunday School classes. The Dale Carnegie House was there. They let us use some space. Campfire girls was in the area, they let us use their space. We rented some space in an office building that was used as the nursery because in terms of trying to take down and put up nursery equipment we needed a place where we could keep stuff. So, your family might be having Sunday School in four different places on Sunday morning.

HUNTLEY: You have been active in the community participation movement. What were some of the highlights of your career with that group? I know your service, but are you still president?

BOCK: No, I gave up being president in 1987 or '88. I was asked to work with the 01:03:00Woodlawn area in a revitalization program and the time and the evening meeting of my own neighborhood association and the need to meet with folks at Woodlawn was just too much of a conflict because I really felt like they both had to be my first priority so I went ahead and did not run in '87 or '88 to continue as president.

HUNTLEY: You were here when Mayor Arrington was first in office.

BOCK: Right.

HUNTLEY: How did your community respond to a Black man coming in to run the city?

BOCK: My recollection is that he carried our neighborhood. A number of us who were very active in the neighborhood were very active in support of his campaign and that's a long time ago, but my recollection is that we had a majority.

HUNTLEY: Betty, how do you see the city changing over time from when you arrived in '66 to the present as far as racial issues are concerned?

BOCK: Out really there has been progress.

HUNTLEY: What do you mean? Explain this.

BOCK: Racism is still alive and well.

HUNTLEY: Why do you say that?

BOCK: It's seen in housing patterns. The transition is taking place in the Huffman and Roebuck area now. You know for a long-time folks could hide behind 01:05:00the economic thing. Well now if there were middle class Black people, we wouldn't mind living next door to them. It's the lower income Blacks that we don't want to live next door to. But now you have African American middle-class families moving into previously White communities and you've got as much White flight as when it was the inner city. I would even put some of the difficulties with programs such as Healthy Start and some of the stuff with the Citizen Participation Program has some vestiges of those dynamics.

HUNTLEY: How is that, those two? Just talk briefly about those two, Healthy Start and Citizens Participation.

BOCK: In some ways I would say that the two groups of people in many situations can use the same works and think they were on the same pages, but the reality was that they were worlds apart. And I don't put the whole Healthy Start situation on that. There was one woman who was apart from anything else was a primary factor in the things that happened but that wasn't the sole problem going on.

HUNTLEY: Betty we've covered a lot of territory and we're going to have to stop here because I have another person who's coming in. I'm sure though that we'll probably like to get you back to talk more in detail about some of the things that have taken place in the last 10 or 12 years. But I want to thank you for 01:07:00taking time out today to talk with us.

BOCK: Thank you.