Rev. Abraham Woods Jr.

HANSON: This is an interview with the Rev. Abraham Woods, Jr. for the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute's Oral History Project. I'm Betty Lee Hanson and I'm the interviewer. We're recording it at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute on April 30, 1998. I still keep thinking that we should be earlier then this but 1948, or something. The time is going too fast. Let's talk about those early years, Rev. Woods in growing up in Birmingham. You spent all your early years growing up...Did I read that your father was from Pratt City? Tell me a little about that.

WOODS: Well, my father is a native of the city. I don't think we said Pratt City, because we grew up a number of years in what is called East Thomas there. Of course, we moved to other places in East Thomas, but East Thomas was the 00:01:00place where I was born, where I went to the elementary school and where I grew up.

HANSON: Your name, interestingly enough, is Abraham Lincoln Woods, Jr.

WOODS: Well...

HANSON: Explain that to me. How did your father come up with...WOODS: My father's name is Abraham Lincoln Woods. His name was Abraham Nathan at first. He changed it to Lincoln and, of course, my mother named me after him. I was the first son and the first child. So, she named me after my father. However, after that, it appeared that she became somewhat infatuated with Presidents, because all of her boys were named after Presidents. Calvin, of course, was named after Calvin Coolidge. I said, my mother really didn't know history, because she would 00:02:00have known that Calvin Coolidge had some responsibility in the Great Depression. There's another one of her sons she named Frank after Franklin Roosevelt. There's another one she named Dwight.

There is a brother who didn't get the Presidential name and he was our first brother to finish college, get his Masters Degree and then go on to the University of Wisconsin and get his Doctorate. When he was born, we asked my mother, "what would he be named?" She said, "Well, I don't feel well. You all name him." And Calvin, my younger brother, to me has always been quicker of the lip than I was, so, he said, "let's name him Roy." We were at that time, we 00:03:00often went to see the western cowboys. Calvin's favorite western cowboy was Roy Rogers. So, he named him Roy and my mother consented to that. So, he's the only one that was not named after a President. We joke about it. I said, "Calvin I didn't like you naming him Roy, but maybe I should be thankful you didn't name him Trigger." (Laughing) My mother, I think in the fact that she named us after Presidents wanted us to be somebody. I think that was her way of saying to us, "I want you to amount to something. I want you to accomplish something."

HANSON: That's interesting. Your father was a minister, but that certainly wasn't a high paying position. Certainly it wasn't in those days. Did he work at something else at the same time?

WOODS: Yes, even before he became a minister he worked at McWane Pipe Company, over in Norwood. He worked there for many years. Even after he had been called into the ministry and started pastoring a small church, he continued to work there, because the church was not able to pay the kind of salary that he could just do that and take care of his family.

HANSON: Did your mother work?

WOODS: My mother did not have a job outside of the home, but when we were growing up, she took in washing and ironing. I'll never forget she took in washing and ironing from some of the White people in the community. Especially certain White families. I would go over and get the dirty clothes in my wagon and bring them back. She would wash them and not only wash them, but she would 00:05:00iron them. I would carry them back. The pay for all of those clothes was 50¢.

HANSON: How did you feel about that? Did it color anything...

WOODS: Well, we thought 50¢, you know, was very valuable to us at that time. I guess what we were really more interested in, whenever mother would wash the clothes and iron them...I carried them back and bring the 50¢ back. She would buy ginger bread and she would share the ginger bread with all of the children. I guess we looked more forward to the ginger bread. You could get ginger bread for a nickel, a great big ginger bread. That would go a long way with all the children. So, we were more interested in that, as far as the washing and ironing was concerned than we were what the pay was. I guess at that time we were not 00:06:00mature enough to make comparisons about how little she was getting for how much work she was doing.

HANSON: Let me go back a minute. You said, all of your brothers were named after Presidents, except the one, Roy. Those were all White heroes.

WOODS: Absolutely.

HANSON: Talk about that just a little bit would you, Rev. Woods? Because you, of course, being active in the civil rights movement that comes later but how come all Whites? Weren't there heroes in your own life...W. E. B. Dubois. Why, for example, were there no Blacks?

WOODS: Well, my mother, undoubtedly, was not to knowledgeable about them. I imagine she knew about Booker T. Washington and maybe W. E. B. Dubois. I'm not sure. I never heard her talk about them. So, these were the people that stood out as great leaders and outstanding men. Of course, Abraham Lincoln, the 16th 00:07:00President of the United States, certainly has gone down in history as the President that embraced African-Americans. Of course, the Emancipation Proclamation was given by Lincoln.

However, as a student of history I know that Lincoln said, "That if I can save the Union by keeping slavery, I'll do that and if I can save the Union by getting rid of slavery, I'll do that." It became a strategically necessary for Lincoln to get rid of slavery. So, he issued the Emancipation Proclamation. He has gone down in history as the President that befriended Negroes at that time. Of course, you know, the South was afraid that if he became elected President 00:08:00that he was going to free the slaves. South Carolina jumped out a little after he was elected. However, Lincoln couldn't have done that unless he had the support and backing of those other politicians that was around him.

HANSON: Was it because you had his name that made you interested in history, too? Or was it something you got from your family?

WOODS: Well, what got me interested in history and certainly the history of African-Americans was the fact that when I was in high school, I was enrolled in a course called Negro Makers of History. I'll never forget that course. It was a course where we used the book by [inaudible] Woodson. That course was an eye opener to me. As a result of that course, I became very proud to be an 00:09:00African-American. My self-esteem increased because I was thinking that in order to accomplish, in order to be successful, in order to be anybody you had to be White, because that's what we saw around us. The policemen were White.

HANSON: Everything was White.

WOODS: The firemen were White. People in outstanding leadership positions were White, this sort of thing. So, until I enrolled in that course and matriculated in that class it was [inaudible] to me. I came to recognize that being Black, I still could attain, I could achieve. So, this Black History course really was one of the greatest factors in my life that really caused me to be proud. It 00:10:00caused me to know that if I put forth the effort, that as a Black man that I could achieve. Also, that there were people who put forth efforts to better the condition of Negroes, or African- Americans. So, I was really helped by that course.

HANSON: Did you have any contacts with Whites at all? Now you were a student leader at Miles, pardon me, at Parker High School. You were President, I believe, of the...

WOODS: Student Government.

HANSON: Student Government, right.

WOODS: That is correct.

HANSON: Did you have any other contact with any of the other schools, Phillips, Ramsay, some of these other schools that were all White schools?

WOODS: To my knowledge, at that time, we did not. I don't remember ever having 00:11:00any contact with White students. Of course, you know, separation and segregation was the order of the day. There were laws.

HANSON: The laws were very strenuous.

WOODS: Against the races mixing and that sort of thing.

HANSON: So, there was no kind of cross communication at all?

WOODS: To my knowledge, I can not remember, not in the school setting. Of course, growing up as boys we played with some White children and they played with us. My grandmother worked for them and they were the people my mother washed clothes for, but we played with them.

HANSON: Then, there came a time when you couldn't play with them anymore, right? Was that typical?

WOODS: Well, when they got older, you know. Of course, when we got older, we went our way and they went there way.

HANSON: Let me ask you a question here, because it's always puzzled me a little 00:12:00bit coming down into the south. Is it very often when that division comes with kids playing together...there's a commonality, fun, a joyful time together and then there comes a time when you have to stop calling the White fellow Tom. According to the books I've read, it has to be Mr. Tom. Did you experience that?

WOODS: I don't remember experiencing that, but we knew that they were supposed to be better than we were.

HANSON: Tell me, you used the word we knew...

WOODS: We knew that they were supposed to be better than we were.

HANSON: Develop that word "knew" for me, will you. You understood, did it make you angry?

WOODS: It's an understanding. You grew up and you were taught in various ways that they had the upper hand and that you were somewhat [inaudible], you see. Of course, in the play sometime it would come out. I never will forget that on 00:13:00occasion I had the responsibility of finding scrap food to feed our hogs. I would get my bucket, we called it a slop bucket, and go to the White community and we would go through the garbage to find what scraps of food that we could carry back and feed our hogs. I never will forget that one day in the White community some of the White boys turned loose some dogs on us. They seemed to have been very ferocious dogs and we were running and, of course, hollering. I remember the dog jumped on me, you know. He had me down and it was a very 00:14:00terrifying moment. The White boys were laughing, you see. Fortunately, I was not hurt. I think some adults were around somewhere. They called the dogs off. That was a very terrifying experience.

HANSON: How old were you?

WOODS: I felt so dehumanized and so humiliated and so helpless, you see. They were White and we were Black.

HANSON: How old were you, Rev. Woods?

WOODS: I don't remember exactly my age and I would hate to try to speculate at this time. I don't think I was in my teens at that time. I hadn't reached my teens at that time.

HANSON: Did this develop anger? It would with me.

WOODS: Yes, it did. It did. The very fact that they turned these ferocious dogs 00:15:00loose on us and as the dogs attacked they were laughing. They were having fun at our pain, or discomfort, you see. I was very upset but yet had been taught that you had to be careful about venting your anger and your wrath against White people, you see. They took advantage of Negroes.

HANSON: Did your anger go towards determination that you were going to do something with your life? You obviously have, along with what your parents have instilled in you.

WOODS: Well, obviously things like that built up.

HANSON: Sure.

WOODS: You know, of course, there is going to come a time...as my think processes matured and I recognized that something could be done and I could be a 00:16:00part of various activities, I entertained the thoughts that I needed to help to better the lot of myself and of my people.

HANSON: Did you ever want to get even? These are very negative words, I realize that.

WOODS: Well, yes, you have those emotions.

HANSON: Sure.

WOODS: And, as I said before Whites were in power. They had the authority, they ran everything. They had the police. They had all of this and your word meant nothing against a White person. You better be careful not to sass them, or say they told a lie, or get out of your place. That sort of thing. You had to be very careful. It was a common emotion to want to get even, but it was a thing 00:17:00that you better be careful and not do [it] if you still want to be around.

HANSON: What do you think in this emotion that was very common and understandable, what turned you into the path that you went on, which was education, which was the ministry, which was the civil rights movement, as opposed to anything else, a negative kind of behavior?

WOODS: Well, I'll tell you what turned me on. Another thing, when I was a boy, my father was trading at a certain White store. I never will forget on payday we used to go to that store and he'd get groceries and he'd buy some candy and some other stuff for the children. So, we looked forward to that. I never will forget 00:18:00this particular Friday evening we went to Hawkins Store and Mr. Hawkins said my father couldn't get anything.

HANSON: Could not get anything?

WOODS: Said he couldn't get anything. They were not going to let him have anything. He said, "your bill is too high and what do you want to pay me?" My dad said, "this is all I can pay you, Mr. Hawkins." He said, "well, I can not let you get anything today." My father was so sad, he was pleading with the man for what he needed for his family and children. To see my father pleading with a White man, he's disrespecting him and saying uncomplimentary things to him...I looked up to my father. It hurt me, you see, it was a feeling that I never got 00:19:00over. Of course, there were other situations where my father was humiliated. It's something that hurt, you see. So, after I left Parker High School, where I had been elected President of Student Government, I had received a scholarship to Morehouse.

Also, while matriculating at Parker I had some evening work. I was working at Jim Dandy Milling Factory, which was in North Birmingham. I was going there after school and working about four or five hours and maybe sometimes six hours and working on the weekends, saving money to go to school. Of course, there I 00:20:00came in contact with Whites and Blacks, too. Of course, I was a good worker and the White supervisors, undoubtedly, recognized something in me that wasn't in any other workers. So, the owner sent me on special errands and to even do some personal things for him. They thought I was going to stay there at that company. After I finished school, I announced to them that I was going to go to college.

So, I went to Morehouse. While at Morehouse, I came under the influence of Dr. Benjamin Mays. Morehouse gave me a tuition scholarship. Of course, I made plans to attend and of course, I received a letter from them saying that "we have 00:21:00accepted you and we're giving you a tuition scholarship with the conditions that you continue to make a 'B' average, but we do not have dormitory space for you."

HANSON: What did you do?

WOODS: They said to me, "now we would like to recommend that you go to Payne College." That college was in Augusta, Georgia. I didn't want to go to Payne, I wanted to go to Morehouse. So, some neighbors of ours informed us that they had some relatives in Atlanta and that it was possible that I might be able to stay at one of their relatives home. We made contact and it was settled and I did get into Morehouse. After that semester, I was able to move into Graves Hall, where the freshmen were usually housed. We used to rather go to Chapel than eat, some 00:22:00of us, because Dr. Benjamin Mays was going to speak on that particular day.

HANSON: He was an influential figure for a lot of...

WOODS: Oh, he was an influential figure and I'll never forget on occasion...I can hear him now as he was talking to us. He had sort of a brogue...he said, "I would not be a Jim Crow Negro, taking the wings of a bird going up in the gallery in a theater to see a movie. I wouldn't be a Jim Crow Negro, going around to the back of a restaurant, sticking your head in a hole in a wall to get a sandwich. I wouldn't be a Jim Crow Negro." You know, he just lifted up and 00:23:00that would just tear us up, because we would go to the theater and you know you couldn't sit on the main floor. You couldn't even sit in the balcony. You had to go beyond the balcony up into the gallery, you see. He said, "that's a Jim Crow Negro that would do that." When you wanted to order something from a restaurant, you had to go around back in a hole in the wall and order. I wouldn't patronize those kind of situations. It made sense and other things that he would say to us, you see. So, that helped me a whole lot to come under the influence of this great man.

HANSON: You were at Morehouse in '46, '47. You came back to Birmingham and I think according to your biography here, you went to...what did you do with that interim before you went to the Birmingham Bible College in '47?

WOODS: I imagine I went over to Daniel Payne College, because I was determined I was going to finish my graduate studies. I went there for a while. Then, I went to the Baptist College, I believe. After the Baptist College I went out to Miles College. It was at Miles College that I finished my graduate work with an A.B. major in Sociology and a minor in English.

HANSON: I want to deal some more with that period in time, because from '47 to '53 it was still a very highly structured segregation environment that you had to fight against in a variety of different ways but not as openly. However, in 1954 something extraordinary happened. The Supreme Court ruled in Brown vs. 00:25:00Board of Education. What did you think that day that came down?

WOODS: Well, that was a great day because, as you know, it set aside the Plessy vs. Ferguson decision of 1896. And, of course, it was a time for rejoicing, as far as African-Americans were concerned. There were numerous cases that were going to the various courts seeking to oppose the segregated system that was not equal at all. Whites enjoying the best facilities; the best books. The Blacks the dilapidated facilities and so, often getting the second hand books the White students had used, even the second hand furniture that they had almost torn up and that sort of thing. So, it was not an equal situation at all. So, it was a 00:26:00time of great hope. Now that the Supreme Court, the highest court in the land, has ruled we have hope now. The courts is on our side.

HANSON: But, it was a number of years before...how many years? Five? Four? Before in 1958, '59, when the beginning of Shuttlesworth is coming here, you're meeting up with him. Detail that time from '54 to '58. The hope was there, but it was also closed.

WOODS: Before I get there I would like to go back a little bit.

HANSON: Okay.

WOODS: To some years and look at my activities, what I was doing. After I left Morehouse I went to work at the company where my father worked.

HANSON: Jim Dandy?

WOODS: McWane.

HANSON: That's right, you were at Jim Dandy.

WOODS: McWane Pipe Shop. They were training me to be a [inaudible] attendant. That was a very dangerous job. I'm sure they hired me because my father had been there for many years. So, I stuck a coal bar in the hot [inaudible] on occasion. My duties there and hot irons [inaudible] out and [inaudible] it missed my face. It hit me on the arms and on the legs. Of course, I had some serious burns. So, I had to be off for quite awhile. In the meantime, I decided that kind of work 00:28:00was not for me. So, I decided not to go back to that. However, I had a family coming now and I had to work to support my family. So, after I left McWane I got a job being a janitor, cleaning up the old Phoenix Building at night, where the telephone company was housed.

That wasn't enough to keep food on the table and pay the other necessities. So, I took a day job, janitor at H. L. Green Department Store, which was called [inaudible] in the downtown. So, I worked during the day as a janitor at that department store downtown and at night I would go to the Phoenix Building and 00:29:00clean it up. I never will forget that. I saved up enough money to make a down payment on a car. A little old Ford. I started driving it to work to the Phoenix Building, but I would park it around the block.

HANSON: Why?

WOODS: Well, you just didn't want the White supervisors to know.

HANSON: That you had a car?

WOODS: Yeah.

HANSON: Why? What would happen?

WOODS: So, one night I was running late and I drove up in front of the building. I parked the car and got out and the supervisor was going in the building. He saw me and he saw my car. So, I went on in and got ready for my work and 00:30:00proceeded to go to work. He came up on the floor where I was mopping. He said to me, "well now, Abe you're going to have to decide which one of these jobs you want." Well, I was sort of taken back. I said, "what do you mean? You just told me last week that I was doing a good job here and you talked with the people at the store and they said I was doing a good job there." I said, "now, what's wrong?" He said, "you're driving a car that looks better than mine." I said, "is that it?" He said, "yes." I said, "ok, you can have your job." So, I left him 00:31:00and only had the job at the department store.

HANSON: That was an act of defiance then. Would that might not have traveled the grapevine, look out for Abraham Woods?

WOODS: Well, no, it didn't, because I was a good worker. I worked well, even when I was cutting grass and going across the mountain cutting grass. I cut grass so well and trimmed shrubbery so well until various people across the mountain was getting upset with each other. This one said, "he's going to cut mine next." And another one said, "no, he's going to cut mine next." In fact, they even got in a squabble about my doing their yard. The fuss came so intense I just had to leave it there. They were really on each other about me doing 00:32:00their yard. I did that kind of work. My work was good work. One day one of the supervisors said to me, "Abraham we want you to go to the state store and get us a fifth of liquor."

I said to them, "well, I don't go to the state store. I don't drink." They said, "well, the other fellow we had, he used to go." I said, "well, I don't go. I'm a Christian and I don't drink and I don't go to the state store." So, they said, "okay." That didn't bother me, but that Christmas the manager called me into his office. He said to me, "Abraham, you've been a great worker. I want to call you in to let you know I'm going to give you a raise. We appreciate your work." He 00:33:00was drinking. So, he said, "here, let me pour you a drink." So, I said, "Mr. Wilkins, I don't drink." He said, "you don't? Well, sir, them fellows told me that, but I didn't believe it." So, he was just testing me out. So, I stayed there until...

HANSON: Did you get the raise?

WOODS: Yeah, I got the raise. I eventually quit, because I wanted to go back to school. I took a job with Atlanta Life Insurance Company. I worked as a Life underwriter for a number of years. It was hard work, hard work. You had to bring in new business. So, often when you hadn't written up any new business, you would stop at a tree and ask the tree, "tree, what's your name?" (Laughing) And 00:34:00then write it up, you know.

HANSON: Atlanta Life Insurance, was that a Black company?

WOODS: Yes, a Black company. It's downtown now. It's in the [inaudible] Temple now. In fact, Atlanta Life Insurance Company is one of the largest Black companies.

HANSON: Was it in competition with Booker T. and Gaston?

WOODS: Yes, yes, it was. I wasn't making too much money in life insurance, because I would have to take insurance premium out of my pay for the trees and the tree stumps that I had written. (Laughing)

HANSON: Was that a bit of a cheat?

WOODS: Well, yes, but if you wanted to stay there you had to write business, because Mr. Charlie Green, who was the manager looked for some business. So, I was called to preach while I was working at Atlanta Life. So, I announced it to 00:35:00them that I had been called to preach. So, the next week I was expecting...I worked at Atlanta Life Insurance Company and what the church was giving me and putting them together, you know. Then, the next week in one of the meetings the manager, Mr. Charlie Green said, "well, Rev. Woods has been called to preach, been called to the church and he's going to be leaving us." I hadn't said I was going to be leaving.

HANSON: You wanted both?

WOODS: I wanted both, but he said that I will be leaving them and "we want to wish him well." So, I had the church and so I decided to go back to school. It was tough, but I did go back to school. I went to Daniel Payne College and that's where we come back into the Daniel Payne College. Then, [I] went on to 00:36:00the Baptist College and then, after that [I] went on to Miles College. Let's get back to where we were.

HANSON: We are going to do that. I want two things. These are fascinating stories. Where did you get your work ethic?

WOODS: I got it from my father. My father had a really good work ethic. In fact, you can go back further than that. We lived in East Thomas and on the hill, back over the hill was College Hills. I often went over there to get scraps, slop for our hogs. But I also, as a boy, worked at some of the homes. I'll never forget one of the big houses up there. The lady hired me to clean her floors. I had to get on my knees to scrub her bathrooms and clean everything. Of course, all day 00:37:0050¢, you see. I pass that house on occasion now. Blacks live up in there now, but I had a very strong work ethics. I not only did that but cut grass and also served as a delivery boy at a grocery store. The little money that I would make I would have to give it all to my daddy and then he would give me back...

HANSON: There was no welfare then, there was nothing that you could go to?

WOODS: Not much welfare, there were some surplus food. I never will forget we were on the list to get some of the surplus food. Sometimes it would be powder milk and some cheese. Sometimes it would be peanut butter and this sort of thing. So, you had that during those days. My father was a hard worker and I 00:38:00imagine I took after him.

HANSON: How did you keep hope alive? I think it's Jesse Jackson who constantly says, "Keep hope alive." How did you keep hope alive during that period of time? Did you know that there was going to be something better? Did you just strive for it? It was a segregated time now, you know what's happening in downtown Birmingham. It is more closed and...

WOODS: Well, what played such an important role in our lives was the church, you see, the church. The encouragement we got at church and the fact that there was a God, you see. He's a God of justice. He's not going to permit all of this injustice to continue, you see. As the passage, 'Be not to see, God is not marked. What every man sows, that shall he also reap. Weaping may endure for a 00:39:00night, but joy cometh in the morning.' We had hope, we found hope through the church; in the word of God; through our religious orientations, you see.

HANSON: But, you're still a very young man and you have a family and you want to do alot for them. Hope in the church could translate, then, to being active in the movement. For example, when did you meet Fred Shuttlesworth? When did you start all that?

WOODS: Ok, in the 1950s, I met Shuttlesworth sometime after 1954. The Supreme Court, not the Supreme Court, but the state of Alabama had issued an injunction against the NAACP. It could not operate any longer. I remember one of the 00:40:00members of the church I attended was seeking to get Blacks to register to vote. The question I was real long at, great difficulty, but I never will forget Mr.

Patterson. He was a member of the NAACP and he was seeking to get Black voters. It was difficult. I never forgot him. I took note of him, because there were not alot of people in our church trying to do things like that. So, he stood out, you see. I always appreciated him.

HANSON: Your talking about [inaudible] Patton?

WOODS: How is that?

HANSON: You said, Patton?

WOODS: Patterson.

HANSON: Patterson, okay.

WOODS: So, after the NAACP was outlawed I decided to work with a group that was 00:41:00headed by Dr.

Patton, which was the supervisor and coordinated by Mrs. Bernice Johnson. By the way, Bernice Johnson was the first campaign director for Dr. Arrington. You see, she had played a tremendous role. I consider her as my civil rights mother. She was working for Dr. Patton and he was working for the NAACP, but it was another group. A political coordinating group, Attorney R.

L. Billings was a part of it and that sort of thing. They were seeking to 00:42:00register all of the African- Americans that they could register. So, I became a part of those campaigns working with Bernice Johnson. I met Fred Shuttlesworth, because Shuttlesworth had been working with the NAACP, too. It was Fred Shuttlesworth, after the NAACP enjoined, who called a mass meeting at the old Sardis Baptist Church. He said in that mass meeting when there was consent, that a new organization should [be] born. He said, "they killed the old hen, but before she died she had some biddies." He was referring to the Alabama Christian Movement as one of the biddies. It really turned into a fighting rooster, you 00:43:00see. So, that is where I hooked up with Fred Shuttlesworth. I then became one of the vice-presidents of the Alabama Christian Movement. I remember the inner circle.

HANSON: How did you...Why did you do it as opposed to somebody else? What is it about Abraham Woods that made him decide by golly, I am going to work with Shuttlesworth. I'm going to stand the wrath of the city fathers. What made Abraham Woods do that?

WOODS: What I had been through. The experiences I had and my hopelessness and my fear and my rage at the injustice and the humiliation which Jim Crow, the southern way of life, had forced upon me and my family and African-Americans. I 00:44:00had determined that I was going to do what I could.

HANSON: Regardless of the consequences?

WOODS: Regardless of the consequences. I had to grow in that kind of commitment, because in those early days Shuttlesworth was the most courageous man I had ever seen. He wasn't afraid of anything. He carried us into all kinds of dangerous situations and I started thinking that we could get killed in some of these situations. Fred didn't seem to have a fear at all. I started thinking to myself this fellow is going to get ya'll killed. I had those kinds of thoughts. Yet I 00:45:00was ashamed to express them, you see. I didn't want anybody to know that I was thinking that. I didn't want to die. I wanted to do something. You know, to give the last measure of devotion, it's something that you come to as you continue to work in the movement.

You constantly evaluate what you're doing and the impact it is having. So, it is something I got caught up in. I started accepting the fact then that if I had to make the ultimate contribution because that was the sentiment. That was Fred's sentiment. That was the sentiment of others and the commitment of others, too. 00:46:00We read about what had happened and who sought to lead voter registration campaigns and who sought to do this and that in other places in the South. So, you eventually came to that and your commitment grew. Your courage grew.

HANSON: Stop right there a minute, cause we want to deal with that courage and we want to deal about that. I want to know, you said you felt rage, you felt anger, you felt humiliated. These are some of the words you used. How did you buy into non-violence when other people were willing to use violence? What made you buy into non-violence with all these human emotions you are experiencing?

WOODS: Well, as you know the Montgomery bus boycott was going on in Montgomery. We admired Dr. King. He had emerged as a charismatic, eloquent, forceful, 00:47:00committed leader, you see. He had embraced the philosophy of non-violence, you see. He was having tremendous success in Montgomery. Of course, as in other places in the south...transportation here in Birmingham. They were being 00:48:00successful in Montgomery. So, Fred Shuttlesworth was leading that struggle here. Some other people were leading it in other places. Jamison was in [inaudible]. [inaudible] Steele down in Tallahassee, you see. Shuttlesworth was leading it here. So, reading about King and then going down to the mass meetings on occasion, you see. It appeared that, that was the way to go, you see. He made the teachings of the Bible come alive. Of course, when his home was bombed, he was in Montgomery.

HANSON: Are you talking about Shuttlesworth, or King?

WOODS: Talking about King. Negroes came out, African-Americans came out with all 00:49:00kinds of weapons, guns, shotguns, pistols and all kinds of weapons. He told them to "go home and put your weapons up." They that lived by the sword will die by the sword, you see. So, his being an exponent, or embracing non-violence in the movement, he was having great success. He was being [inaudible] and we had religious orientations. Then, we knew that was the way to go. And, of course, really not understanding still a whole lot about it, but we did have some misgivings. I did until I was enrolled in a course. As they sought to get ready 00:50:00to come to Birmingham, Shuttlesworth had already invited King to come to Birmingham, but prior to their coming, we were enrolled, I believe, in a course called the Power of Non-Violence. I never will forget the author of this book, his name was Dr. Greg, as we sat in the classes.

HANSON: Where were the classes, Rev. Woods?

WOODS: It was held in various churches.

HANSON: In Birmingham?

WOODS: Also, I believe we went to a Miles Hawkins school somewhere. Maybe it was in Tennessee. Then, went somewhere over in the Carolinas. A woman over there, I can't remember her full name, Fatina something, but she was a great mother of 00:51:00the movement. So, we were taught these techniques. We saw that it took great character, great strength to embrace non-violence. It was not a [inaudible] sort of weak kind of thing. It took great strength. Everybody couldn't do that, didn't have that type of discipline, you see. To be spit on and not retaliate, to be kicked and a cigarette butt put down your back. Slapped and all that kind...it takes great discipline and strength to do that.

HANSON: Were you ever spat on?

WOODS: Yes, I was.

HANSON: Did they ever put a cigarette out on your back?

WOODS: Well, no. Tried to, but I started wiggling before it went down. Some of them did get them put down their backs and that sort of thing. We learned it 00:52:00took great strength in order to keep your composure and not retaliate.

HANSON: There were deaths happening to a lot of Negroes and some Whites that dared stand up. How did you get the courage to accept death as a possibility for what you were doing, Rev. Woods?

WOODS: Well, as I said, Fred Shuttlesworth had already gone over that hurdle. If he had not, he wouldn't have been doing the things that he was doing. I'll never forget that his home was bombed, his church was bombed. It was Christmas and we were supposed to ride the buses in a desegregated manner the next day. Of 00:53:00course, we were out at that scene. Reporters were around and one of the reporters asked Rev. Shuttlesworth, standing not too far from him, he said, "now your church has been bombed, you've been bombed. You've been blown out of your house. Of course, you did not sustain any major injuries. You have promised that you were going to ride the buses in a desegregated manner tomorrow. Now since this has happened to you, what are you going to do? Are you still going to ride the buses?" What impressed me, Shuttlesworth, before the reporter could get it out of his mouth Fred said, "when the buses run, we're going to ride." (Laughing).

Well, I thought maybe Fred should have said, "we're going to meet and we're going to discuss it. We're going to assess the situation and then we're going to decide." He said, "when those buses run, we're going to ride." And ride those buses we did. His little darling said, "Daddy, they can't kill us, can they?" Because of the attempts that had been made on his life, he looked at her and said, "no." When he got ready to go up to Phillips High School to enroll his children in Phillips High School, it had been announced.

HANSON: Did you go with him that day?

WOODS: Yes, and I'll tell you how I went. We were standing around talking and Fred said, "well, gentlemen, I'm ready to go up to Phillips." So, he looked 00:55:00around at us. He said, "I'll need somebody to drive me up there." He looked right at me. He said, "Woods, I want you to drive me up to Phillips." Well, I knew that every sick minded fanatic would be there with all kinds of weapons. So, I tried to find some kind of excuse not to drive. I wanted to support him, but I really didn't want to drive that car. So, I just kept saying, "Fred, well, you see, well, you know." Trying to think of something to say. While I was humming and hooing, another one of the vice- presidents, Rev. J. S. Phiffer 00:56:00said, "I'll drive you." I said, "Well, alright, if Phiffer's going to drive you, I can't drive you. But I'll tell you what, I'll be the look out man. I'll go with you all and I will be the look out man. I will look out one block from where you're going so I can see what's happening." So, that's what I did.

So, we drove up toward Phillips. I stopped one block from the school. Sure enough, there was this huge, enraged crowd with bats, sticks and chains. Ain't no telling, knives and what not. I said, "Good, God, I know, I hope Fred's not going to stop in the midst of that mob." I stopped at the block. He told Phiffer 00:57:00to go on. Phiffer drove him on down, his wife was in the car, too. He drove him on down and stopped right in the middle of that mob that was at the front entrance. Not only did he stop, but he opened the door and got out. I said, "Good, God, Almighty." Of course, as soon as he opened the door and got out they grabbed him, you see. Very quickly, he was on the ground and they were beating him on the ground. They were kicking him, stepping on him and what not. How he got up, I don't know, but he got up and he was backing toward the car door. The 00:58:00car door was open and he was backing toward the car door. Some fellow was about to hit him and before this fellow could swing he fell in the car door and Phiffer pulled him in and somehow shut the door. I don't know how they did that.

Mrs. Shuttlesworth was trying to get out and somebody hit her in the side with a knife and stabbed her in the side with a knife. They shut the door. Miraculously, the Lord certainly had a plan. Phiffer started the car and, of course, they were shaking it and they were trying to stop it. He was revving the engine up and the momentum of the car, they had to get out of the way. So, I scooted around the block and I was thinking they had done killed Rev. 00:59:00Shuttlesworth. They had done beat him almost to death. There ain't no telling how bad and they've gone to the hospital. So, we went to the hospital. After he was examined the doctors told him that he didn't even have a fracture. He said he couldn't understand it. I never will forget what Fred's response was. He told us what he said to the doctor, "the Lord knew I had a hard job, so he gave me a hard head." He said that sort of thing. That man was incredible and, of course, my courage is going to build up. I decided to just test myself. Nobody's with me. I'm a first class citizen. One morning I decided I was going to ride first 01:00:00class on the bus. They didn't arrest me when we rode...

HANSON: With Shuttlesworth?

WOODS: Right. They arrested some of the persons who rode on various lines. Of course, a White fellow tried to get the driver to have me and the group with me arrested. He just kept telling the driver, "don't you see the Negroes here?" The driver just kept driving. He told him again, "don't you see these Negroes here?" The driver didn't say anything. So, that gentleman jumped up and pulled the cord and said, "Let me off, this so an so." When he got off, the driver just kept driving. So, none of us were arrested on that bus, which went out somewhere 01:01:00towards West End. I think it was a trolley. But they did arrest some of our people in other places. Sometime later, someday, I don't remember how long, but I decided I was going to ride as a first class citizen. So, I got on the bus over near the University Hospital. I had a Bible and an umbrella.

HANSON: A Bible and an umbrella?

WOODS: A Bible and an umbrella. So, I said I'm going to sit here, I'm going to sit up front. I'm not going to the back. I wanted to be a first class citizen. I wasn't afraid and I was going to sit up front. So, I did sit in a seat up front. 01:02:00A White fellow was in one part of it. So, I just sat in the part near the aisle. I started reading my Bible and I was watching him out of one eye and I was reading the Bible out of the other eye. Of course, he kept swelling up and turning colors, you know. I knew he was going to say something eventually, you see.

HANSON: Excuse me, is he sitting next to you?

WOODS: He's sitting next to the window.

HANSON: And you're sitting in the same seat?

WOODS: I'm sitting in the part of the seat next to the aisle. You know two persons could sit there.

HANSON: In other words, you're sitting right next to him?

WOODS: Yeah, I'm sitting right next to him. Of course, all at once he said, "boy, get on back there where you belong." [Inaudible] I read a long time before I realized it was upside down. I guess I was more watching him than reading my 01:03:00Bible. (Laughing) I just didn't move. I just kept reading my Bible. Then he said it again, "didn't you hear me boy, get on back there." So, I didn't say anything, I just kept reading. I heard a voice from the back. It said, "Hun, come on back here with us now. Don't you start no trouble up there."

So, I ignored that, because people like that we call Aunt Jane, or Nervous Nelly. I wasn't going to let no Aunt Jane stop me from being a first class citizen. So, after a while somebody in the back pulled a cord and then, this little lady was getting off the bus. A friend of hers said, "you getting off 01:04:00here? This is not your stop." She said, "I know it child, but I don't want to be in no mess." So, she jumps off the bus. I just kept sitting there. The bus driver didn't say anything. I ignored the White fellow and finally he said, "move over." I moved over and he jumped up and came out by me an he sat over in another seat. That was the end of that. So, I felt my courage coming. I had decided now whatever happens to me, it's alright. I must do my part in this thing. From then on I had no fear.

HANSON: But you had to test it that way?

WOODS: I tested it by myself. There was nobody but me. So, I didn't have no more 01:05:00fear, you see.

HANSON: Let me ask you about when you registered to vote for the first time. How did that come about? These are very momentous things.

WOODS: Well, I really don't remember the year that I registered to vote. I do know that it was a long questionnaire. I had become registered, because I was in charge of a group. At this time I was at Miles College and I'm in charge of a group that is going to canvas the African-American city and in the outlying areas to teach them how to vote. Prior to that, I had become a register voter. I 01:06:00imagine I became a registered voter somewhere along the lines when I started trying to work with Mrs. Johnson and Mr. Patton.

HANSON: It wasn't hard for you?

WOODS: Yes, it was hard, but we had been taught how to fill out the questionnaire.

HANSON: Wasn't there also an oral test that they would give you when you would go to register to vote?

WOODS: Well, I really don't remember what the oral test was at that time. All I do know is that somewhere, I can't pin point the time, I did pass. A lot of people were not passing. It was a long questionnaire, moral turpitude and all this kind of stuff. If you were an illegitimate child, or if you were the 01:07:00parents of an illegitimate child, then, Bull Conner had come up with some kind of law that you couldn't vote, or something of that kind. They had all kinds of obstacles and what- not in the way of people who sought to vote.

HANSON: Rev. Woods, lets go back to that time. You said you got your courage, A: watching Fred Shuttlesworth and seeing his and then testing it yourself. How far would that courage have extended, you think, if your wife and your children had been [inaudible]? And were they?

WOODS: Well, eventually they were threatened. We were all threatened. That is when we became a part of the massive demonstrations there in the city after Fred had invited Dr. King to come to Birmingham. He didn't get here the year that we 01:08:00wanted him to come. We wanted to get started, I believe, in 1962 but David Vann and some others had [inaudible] change in the city's form of government. From a commissioner form to a mayor/council form, you see. So, they wanted us to hold up, to see what the promises and the results of that government would be.

Bull would no longer be in authority, you see. We decided that we were not going to get the rights that were due us even with a new form of government. Fred 01:09:00Shuttlesworth used to say, the new mayor whose name was Boutwell, he said, "he wasn't well, he was Boutwell." So, therefore he was not going to give us what we wanted. He was going to be more of a sophisticated Bull. He was going to be a Bull, but a sophisticated Bull, you see. So, with the coming of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, then the [inaudible]. Of course, while we worked with Shuttlesworth, trying to desegregate public facilities and things like that, I never will forget Fred in the early time of the movement to try to 01:10:00desegregate the terminal station. A White minister, whose name was Weaver, wanted to support him.

So, he went over as Fred sat in the White waiting room and he sat down beside him. Of course, an angry group of Whites soon gathered. They were more enraged about Rev. Weaver than they were about Fred Shuttlesworth. So, they made Weaver the target. They tried to apprehend him. Somehow he was able to get away. They yelled out threats to him, "nigger lover, this and that" and said they were going to kill him, you know. The people that day were serious because in the end he had to be hidden in a funeral home. He had to be gotten out of town in a hearse in the wee hours, you see.

HANSON: So, now these things have happened. Shuttlesworth is working with you and several other people independently. What turned the tide and what made King decide to come to Birmingham?

WOODS: Well, he had promised Fred that he was coming to fight. The convention met here. I believe it was in 1962.

HANSON: The SCLC?

WOODS: Yeah. The national convention. I'll never forget why the convention was here. It was the convention that was here. King had just finished an address in [inaudible] auditorium. Of course, a great preacher, a great speaker, you know, we were all lifted. We [inaudible]. We sat down and we noticed a White fellow 01:12:00got up and he started down to the stage where Dr. King was still standing. When he got on the stage, frankly we thought that he was going down to congratulate King, shake his hand or something, when he got there he started hitting King with his fists. We were shocked. Of course, when we gathered our wits and good senses, some of the fellows picked up chairs and started bashing them on him. They just about given him a good beating.

King said, "don't touch him, don't hit him." (Voice to low to hear.)

Somebody said, "call the police." King said, "No, don't call the police." 01:13:00Somebody called them anyhow and of course, when the police arrived, King refused to press any charges against this White fellow. In fact, the White fellow had gotten all nervous and upset by this time. So, King asked one of the ladies to bring him a glass of water. One of them reluctantly, I'm not sure if it was Deenie Drew, or who it was that finally brought him that glass of water. King refused to press charges when the police arrived, you see. So, then [the] next year they decided they needed to come. They sent Wyatt T. Walker in as the front man to look at the lay of the land out here. I was one of the minister who took him to the downtown area.

We made the rounds to all of the things that we were going to be involved with. Wyatt T. Walker set up the strategy that would be followed and what department stores we would sit in and what not and when we were going to do it, you see. So, the die is going to be cast now for this situation. Also, I was teaching at Miles then. I finished Miles in the spring of '62 and I asked Dr. Pitts for a job and he gave me a job. I started working at Miles in the fall of '62 and of course, I've been there ever since. So, I need to mention that Miles College 01:15:00students were the first group to show us that we could mount a successful selective buying campaign on downtown Birmingham. If I can remember correctly, the Miles College campus became upset, because Bull Conner would not let us go into the community to solicit funds to upgrade our library. He said if we went down he would put us in jail. I never will forget that day that President Pitts was [inaudible]. So, sometime later a selective buying campaign was directed.

HANSON: Stop there a minute, because this whole period with Lucius Pitts, who isn't with us anymore and what happened at Miles and you were a part of that is a very interesting time in Birmingham's history. Did Pitts ever tell you, or any other member of the faculty, to try to discourage these young people, or was he very much a part of encouraging it?

WOODS: Pitts was very much a part of the encouragement. Pitts' background was one that which had him involved in trying to help African-Americans get justice and opportunities. Now he worked with the African-American teachers in Georgia and I think he also worked with the NAACP. So, he came out of a background that 01:17:00he had to face these kinds of things.

HANSON: So, he gave you encouragement?

WOODS: He gave us all the encouragement. He permitted me to be involved in everything that was going on. He encouraged students to go with me. Even some of the faculty members joined in. Pitts was on the, was a member of the [inaudible] committee. He was one of King's chief advisors. Many of the strategy meetings were held in Pitts office on the campus of Miles College.

HANSON: Did the police know about that?

WOODS: I don't know. (Laughing) I don't know if they knew that, or not. Miles 01:18:00College would eventually get some threats and, of course, armed guards would have to sit out at the entrance to Miles College. Pitts would tell the White leaders downtown that car loads of strange young men had come in and they were trying to get Miles College students to join up with them. They were militants, the Stokely Carmichael and if something didn't happen, or if something didn't take place, if something isn't done to alleviate the condition of Black folk in 01:19:00this, it's going to blow up. Seemed to be just a matter of time. Frankly, to tell you the truth, Dr. Pitts exaggerated some things. (Laughing)

HANSON: How could you teach in an environment like that, Rev. Woods? What did you teach?

WOODS: Well, when I first started teaching I was teaching some religious courses, Old Testament, New Testament. I had this group of students...Dr. Pitts had gotten a grant and he used the grant to sponsor a voter's education project. I had some students in it who got some credits for being a part of that group. 01:20:00Also, some White students came from the New England states during the summer to be a part of that group and to go with the Blacks in the communities and out in the lying areas to teach people how to vote. Eventually, some Catholic nuns came, too, to be a part of that group.

We would send them out, Black and White together, to go to the various houses. I'll never forget that sometimes people wouldn't open the door. They would look out the window and see a White girl with a Black boy and they wouldn't open the window. That was bad news. You don't do that, you see. They wouldn't even let them in. These New England White young people helped us tremendously. These 01:21:00nuns, I forget where the nuns came from, but I'll never forget the nuns being with us. We got caught in a little rain storm one day. We had been in the outlying areas teaching people how to register to vote. We would line them up to go to the polls. We would send a bus to pick them up and we would sponsor babysitters and we would go with them to the polls. We would be there to give them moral support.

We would see that they registered and bring them back. I'll never forget we were coming back to the campus and it was raining. To keep from getting too wet we had to try to run and get to the shelter. One of the sisters with a long old black gown, or habit, or whatever you call it, on.

HANSON: Habit, yeah.

WOODS: She was running too, trying to get out of the rain. She had pulled her skirt up so she could run

better. One of the young men, he was a White young man from one of the New England colleges, he looked around and saw the sister with the habit pulled up showing her legs. He said, "Look, look, sister got legs, sister got legs." (Laughing)

HANSON: So the humor, helped you survive.

WOODS: Yeah, that helped us survive. Fred laughed a whole lot, too. Fred kept a lot of humor in the situation.

HANSON: Humor, religion and certainly music all played a part in the movement.

WOODS: I don't know what we would have done without Carlton Reese. I'm telling you that, that music would just lift you, you see. We would get in the singing 01:23:00and we meant it. We meant those songs. We would not sing just to be singing. Those songs strengthened us. We were singing our commitment. We ain't gonna let nobody turn me around, you see.

HANSON: We want our freedom.

WOODS: Woke up each morning with my mind stayed on freedom, you see. Alot of that, you see. We meant that.

HANSON: 1963, obviously the bombing of the church. Do you think that changed everything? Or had it started because of the march in Washington first?

WOODS: Well, I think the bombing took place because of the success that we had achieved. I led the first group of sit-ins at the lunch counters. We went to 01:24:00Loveman's and they had a sort of a restaurant type place within the store, not just a lunch counter. We sat down at the tables there. The waitresses, they hurriedly cleaned off the other tables and what few diners there, they finished and they got up and left. Then, the waitresses turned the lights out and they pulled the rope that separated the eating part of the store from the rest of the store. They pulled the chain and locked. We were still sitting up there, lights out.

Of course, we knew what that meant. They were not going to bother us. They were 01:25:00just going to let us sit there till the store closed. That was the strategy they had worked out. So, we knew that wasn't going to do. So, I said, "now we got to be arrested." So, I said, "come on, let's go next door." So, we went next door, to what was Newberry's then. We went in to their lunch counter and proceeded to sit at their lunch counter. Of course, we got the kind of response we were looking for. One of the ladies said, "we can't serve y'all. Y'all better get out of here. If you don't, I'm going to call the police and have you arrested for trespassing." Of course, we said, "we just want a cup of coffee, a sandwich." Customers were in the store. She kept telling us, "Y'all better get out of here." Finally, the supervisor, the manager came up and he said, "I'm going to warn you. You're trespassing. If you don't leave, I'm going to call the police."

So, we said, "go on and call the police. What's taking you so long?" Finally, he called the police and the police came. The police said, "I want to warn you, you're trespassing. If you don't leave, I'm going to have to arrest you." (Laughing) So we said, "go ahead arrest us. We're not leaving." So, finally, he called the paddy wagon. He said, "you're under arrest" Then, he called the paddy wagon. That's what we wanted him to do. So, we got in the paddy wagon. We loaded it up and we started singing. I'm telling you that paddy wagon was rocking from side to side as it was going down the street. We were having a good time. They took us over to the city jail and processed us and put us in a big dormitory type room with bunk beds and that sort of thing. The inmates didn't know who we 01:27:00were. So, we discovered that late that night we saw folks crawling, like they were trying to crawl up to our beds. Well, we didn't understand why these inmates were trying to crawl up to our beds. Are they trying to get in bed with us, or are they trying to take some of our belongings? [inaudible] So, we talked to each other and decided that some of us needed to keep watch. So, some of us slept and some of us watched. Eventually, in a day, or so, they found out who we were, that these people were with Martin Luther King Jr. So, they started warming up to us and they cut out all that hanky panky. We talked with them and 01:28:00tried to enlighten them about what was going on and convert them too and that sort of thing.

HANSON: They were Black inmates?

WOODS: They were Black inmates. So, they decided to send me and one or two others to the city farm. Since I was one of the leaders, they were going to send us to work on the farm. So, they loaded us up that morning and put us on the truck and took us to the farm. I didn't even know the city had a farm until then. We got out there, somewhere near Hooper City. I'm telling you they had a nice farm out there. It was just like putting a rabbit in a briar patch. See, I came up being able to plant corn and sweet potatoes and greens and this sort of thing. So, I even picked cotton at one time with my grandmother. So, I mean, it 01:29:00wasn't any punishment for us. So, they decided to take us out into the woods. It's about two, or three, of us. They said, "come with us. Here's some picks and some shovels" and they had shotguns. They took us way out in the middle of the woods. We got to wondering what do these people got us out here for, are they going to kill us. So, finally, they stopped and they said, "we want to dig here."

Well, we had thought that they possibly were making us dig our graves and after we dig them they are going to shoot us and bury us way out there in the woods. So, we refused to dig. In fact, I asked them, "dig for what? Why are we digging?" They looked at each other and sort of smiled and they said, "well, we think there is some water out here on this farm. We need water for the crop and 01:30:00the live stock." Well, we accepted that and they left and we dug. When they got back, we dug a great big hole for them. They just came and got us and took us on back and put us on the truck and sent us back to the jail. It was just something to do.

HANSON: Rev. Woods, I've always wondered for everybody that went to jail. Did that go on your record? Did it have to be erased from your record? How did that work?

WOODS: Ok, it went on our record. What happened is that our lawyers kept fighting that situation and eventually they came to a process. I forget the name of the process, which wipes any kind of conviction, or record, off your record 01:31:00completely. I forget what you call that process at this time. That's what happened to us at that particular time. The courts wiped...

HANSON: Unjust arrest, yes.

WOODS: The slate clean. So, we didn't even have that on our record.

HANSON: How many other times did you go to jail?

WOODS: Well, that was the first time I went and stayed like that. The other times that we went we were bonded right on out. What we had to do this particular time was to promise to stay in. Of course, there were many that were arrested and they didn't spend any time in jail that much. They got right on out, because Rev. Gardner had the bonding money and this sort of thing. If you went at certain times, like while we were trying to break the back bone of 01:32:00segregation in this city, even when we turned the children out. Now, it was really Rev. Bevel who had the idea of using the children. To my knowledge, Dr. King did not warm up too much to that idea.

HANSON: How did you feel about taking the children?

WOODS: Well...

HANSON: And where were your children during that time?

WOODS: Well, I did have some concern about it, but we decided to go on. We knew that we weren't getting the number of persons, older persons, that we needed to fill up the jails. The movement, seemingly, was going to fail if we didn't get large masses of people going to jail. This seemed to be the hole. I became 01:33:00involved in helping to get the students out of school, you see. They were eager to get out. The word was going around and they were climbing out of windows and jumping over fences. They were coming out every way they could come out. They were eager to come out. They were marching down to Sixteenth Street singing, "I ain't gonna let nobody turn me 'round." So, I got back to Sixteenth Street one morning after I had went to get other students out of school and low and behold my wife was there and several of my children. I was surprised to see them.

HANSON: How did you feel about that?

WOODS: Well, I was surprised to see them because I didn't know that they were coming. They said, "daddy, we want to go to jail, too." So, I said, "good," 01:34:00because I couldn't resist their going to jail and I had been getting other folk's children to go to jail. So, my three girls said, "well, we want to go." Then, my son, my oldest son, five, he said, "daddy, I want to go, too." His mom said, "no, son, you can't go." He said, "I want to go." She said, "no, you can't go. What would you do if one of those dogs got after you?" He put his hands in his pocket and came out with a nice size rock. He said, "I'll hit them in the head with this rock." His mother said, "no, you still can't go."

HANSON: He was only five?

WOODS: Well, he had a fit, he went into a temper tantrum, kicking and screaming and hollering that he wanted to go to jail, too. Of course, his three sisters went and his mother still wouldn't let him go. They stayed in a week. Of course, 01:35:00as you know, they filled up the jails, the juvenile detention facilities. They even put them over in Fair Park. This is what broke the camel's back, you see, with the jails being full.

HANSON: We were talking about being arrested, Rev. Woods.

WOODS: Yes.

HANSON: You were saying...

WOODS: That's right the children filled up the jails.

HANSON: Yeah, yeah.

WOODS: That was the straw that broke the camel's back. As you know, there were some businessmen in Japan that were part of that group that saw those dogs attacking the children here in Birmingham. Of course, it was a terrible thing. My job also was to gather up a person who had been bitten by the dogs and take them to Dr. Hershel Hamilton, who was our doctor. He gave them shots just in case the dogs had rabies and that sort of thing. Of course, some of the people had been knocked down by the powerful blast of the water hose. See, we learned just how to stay just out of harm's way and to just enjoy being drenched by the 01:38:00cool water and just dance and jump around. Those who got caught too close you had to develop a strategy in this sort of thing. So, when Dr. King was attacked about the children, of course, you know he stated [inaudible] He said, "these children have already been hurt. They've already been injured by the southern way of life. Now they have an opportunity to change that." Now that was a good explanation and, of course, it made sense.

HANSON: Give me a time frame. When was the children's march? It was in the spring of '63, correct?

WOODS: Spring of '63, that is correct.

HANSON: Did the march on Washington happen after that?

WOODS: After that. It wasn't going to be till August, the march on Washington. The bombing of Sixteenth Street was in September. We were going to [inaudible]. We went through some turbulent things. We went through alot of other bombings in Birmingham, the bombing of Bethel Church and bombs going off in other parts of the city of Birmingham. Some of the bombs, I think, they were set to trap us. One would go off and we would rush to the area and if we would have been close enough another bomb would go off when the crowd gets there. So, some of those bombs were, we felt, were placed to kill and to maim, you see. Of course, Shores' home was bombed twice. The Gaston Motel was bombed once. I never will 01:40:00forget that night when the Gaston Motel was bombed. On that Friday night, wine heads and people who were under the influence came out of the various drinking places and their rage overflowed. They turned over cars and set them on fire. They set stores on fire. They bombarded the police and the fire trucks with rocks and things.

HANSON: So, you had no control over those people?

WOODS: That's right. That was a terrible night. So terrible the police asked those of us who were supposed to be leaders to get in the cars and ride with them so that the firemen could go put out the fire and that sort of thing. It 01:41:00was a little uncomfortable to ride with them that night. I remember being in a police car and, of course, I held my head way out the window and I said, "I've got to take this risk, but I want those folks who were throwing rocks to see that I'm a soul brother." So, I put my head way out the window so they could see. We were able to get through so that the police were able to do what they wanted to do, which was bring the firemen to put the fire out. Cars were turned over and stores were set on fire. That was a night when African- Americans went crazy. I saw an African-American behind [inaudible] and he came from behind and had a long knife. The policeman was at the other end and he shook his knife at the police and said, "come here. I want that suit you got on." I thought the policeman was going to go down there like they usually do with his gun and he was going to get shot. The policeman didn't move. He didn't go around there. 01:42:00That was a terrible night.

HANSON: Did you ever feel, during that terrible night, that you had let loose of something that you couldn't get no control over?

WOODS: Yes, absolutely. I felt that this thing seemed to be slipping some and we might not be able to control those folks. When Shores' home was bombed, we had a similar situation. A Black man was killed out there. The Black man, police shot him and he favored Shuttlesworth. We often said that they thought they were shooting Shuttlesworth. Blacks were throwing rocks and Bull Conner's armored car was up there that he drove. They were shooting. It was a terrible situation up there. I never will forget things sort of quieted down and an old drunk lady 01:43:00picked up a rock. I said, "Madame, what are you going to do with that rock?" She said, "I'm going to throw this rock at them." I said, "please don't, don't do that." I said, "if you throw the rock they are going to shoot." She said, "I don't care, so and so." I said, "what do you want to achieve by throwing that?" She said, "I'm going to [inaudible]." She didn't pay me any attention. She went on up there and she threw that rock. After she threw that rock, the police started shooting. The bullets were going over our head and hitting the trees. Everybody was running.

HANSON: Scared.

WOODS: So, I ran and hid behind a tree. So, everybody else was gone and the 01:44:00police [inaudible] they had their guns drawn. They said, "you so and so get in the house." I said, "officers, I'm helping y'all." They said, "we don't want your so and so help. Get yourself inside." They had the big guns, so I went on down the street. I saw some people looking out the windows. They said, "get in the house." So, I went up on the porch and knocked on the door. These people would not open the door. I guess they were so terrified. So, they said, "get in there." I didn't tell them that

I didn't live there. So, I just got up in the door and sort of pulled the screen door as close as it would come. A Negro across the street came out with a 01:45:00shotgun. He shot the shotgun and they went over there. They, I thought they were going to shoot him. They beat him up and they dragged him off the porch. It was a terrible night.

HANSON: What calmed it down?

WOODS: Well, after they stopped throwing and they ran us off out of that area...of course, when I came off the porch, I was afraid to just walk in the street openly, so I kind of maneuvered up under the houses. I kind of made my way toward the project under the people's houses. I didn't want to be out where 01:46:00they could see me. Finally, I was able to inch toward the projects and go to one of the houses in the projects. One of my members lived there and I called my wife to come and get me on the back side. She came after me. We experienced some terrible times during the bombings. I just can't remember how many bombings there were. Also, remember when the state troopers came in here? They came to beat us up. My brother got hit a time, or two. They struck at me. You had to learn to be quick. I guess through my quickness, I avoided alot of licks.

HANSON: Did any of you in the leadership, when all of these counter things were happening and you were getting more bombings and were getting people that 01:47:00weren't part of your movement, did any of you think that maybe our strategy isn't working? Maybe we have to reevaluate?

WOODS: Well, earlier and, of course, when the threats were coming and they came continuously.

HANSON: Yes.

WOODS: Nigger you better get out of town. You're going to be next. We're going to get you. The police constantly cruising back and forth. The Klan folk in the cars and what-not. You just didn't know what was going to happen. So, often at night we would get on the floor, because we didn't know the folk meant what they said. They were going to do it then, or not. It was a constant, it was a constant thing. You just had to learn not to be afraid. Answer the telephone, 01:48:00you know, not being fearful. Try to say something nice to them. I guess they had a machine, or something to call up because the phone would just ring constantly. You had to take the phone off the hook.Threats, threats, threats. It just became common place. My wife got used to it. My family got used to it. They were part of the movement. So, pretty soon after quite a bit of that we were baptized. So, we just took it in stride. If they are going to bomb us, or kill us, so be it.

HANSON: Did most of this happen after the children's march downtown? Or was it 01:49:00just constant throughout all of it?

WOODS: Well, even before King came in here I was working with Shuttlesworth. So, it started from then and it continued throughout. Sometimes worse than other times. It was something you had to learn to live with. If you were fearful you would get out of town, you see.

HANSON: What brought about the decision to march on Washington? What was the [inaudible]? Cause you went to Atlanta and worked with...

WOODS: After we got the accord.

HANSON: The Birmingham accord?

WOODS: That's right. It was negotiated by David Vann, who was the go-between 01:50:00man. We would often meet out at Miles College. We thought he was not offering enough. The White community was offering too much and this sort of thing. Of course, he finally worked out an accord. We had a selective buying campaign going on downtown. We had a strangle hold on the merchants. So, the accord was worked out. We got what we asked them for, desegregation of lunch counters and not to press charges and so forth and so on. That sort of thing. After that we got [inaudible] about the march on Washington. Of course, I was asked to come to Atlanta to serve as the deputy director for pulling the march together. I later found out my good friend, Dr. C. K. Steele, who was one of the vice-presidents, 01:51:00recommended me. I had invited him to our church to speak. He spent some time with me and I made some kind of impression on him.

So, he told them that I could do the job. So, I worked out of King's office. In traveling around the south, southeast and back and forth to New York, just about every weekend...my job was to mobilize planes and trains, car pools, buses and what-not so we could have a huge number of people up in Washington. That's what we were shooting at. We knew politicians could count and we were afraid. Dr. King's concerns were that we wouldn't have enough people up there. So, I kept him posted as to the progress that I was making with my mobilization. Just about 01:52:00each week we would meet up at the Urban League in New York. [inaudible] Rustin, would be there. A. Phillip Randolph would be there. The head of the NAACP would be there. Head of the Urban League, SNCC, White religious leaders, White labor leaders and what-not would be there. We would then make our report. So, things were looking good. The last thing I mobilized was a train to start in the lower part of Florida and as it moved up the course pick up [inaudible] at the various cities. It was a long train. I rode that train. It was a Freedom Train. I've got 01:53:00to find my information on it, because no one has talked about it. When we got to Washington and we looked and we saw people coming from everywhere. It looked like a number [inaudible]. We were happy.

HANSON: Was it a shock?

WOODS: It wasn't a shock. We didn't expect that many folks. We were afraid we weren't going to get enough. To tell you the truth, the park rangers finally gave us 250,000, but we had over half a million folks there. I never will forget being there at the Lincoln Memorial and Lincoln sitting in this huge chair. I was standing right in front of him. King was a little further out with his guards around him. You could see all that massive humanity around that reflection pool. Electric was in the air. [inaudible] Jackson was singing. Then, 01:54:00King got up and gave his "I Have a Dream" speech. I'm telling you, you just should have been there. You've heard it but not being there you couldn't feel what went on. That huge crowd of people and one voice. I'm telling you we were really charged and lifted up. He told us to go on back to Alabama, Mississippi, wherever.

HANSON: Come back and do what?

WOODS: To go back and to go to work. So, that was a tremendous experience, the march. It was successful. We had gotten an accord. The march was successful. Prior to that, I had also been tapped to go on some of King's speaking engagements. His schedule had gotten so heavy they were asking him to come to 01:55:00various parts of the country. He couldn't fill all those obligations. So, I was honored to be one of the preachers to go and fill some of his engagements, because it was important. They were going to send a good check back.

So, my first time out I went to Long Island, New York. I'll never forget that, because the plane had motor trouble. It had to try to get back to the airport in Atlanta and I was praying, "Lord, I want to do some more preaching for you." We did get back and I was late and wasn't going to get to Long Island in time. They told me to get off and go to New Jersey. They would have a helicopter waiting for me. So, when I got off in New Jersey there was this great big helicopter and I got on the helicopter and they took me over to Long Island. I got there in time to speak. I never will forget that speaking engagement. We had been 01:56:00successful now with the accord and the march on Washington. The sick minded folk, the Klan, was not going to let us rejoice. They decided that they would show us, that they would pull the ultimate of horror out of their book. This is when the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church was bombed on the 15th. I heard the blast. I was getting ready to go to church.

We had been hearing blasts and what we would do was come out and go near it and finally we would find out where it was and go to it. There were blasts in Birmingham often. That's why we called it "Bombingham." So, I started toward it and after I got some distance I started asking people. They said they believed 01:57:00it was Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. So, I made a bee-line for it. I had to park about two blocks away, because all the authorities were around it and had it roped off and everything. So, I walked up to the church and you could smell this dynamite smoke. People were wailing, crying, hollering, some were cursing. Some were breathing out threats and what-not, what we ought to do. So, it was a terrible, terrible situation. You had a numb feeling. You felt a little guilt, you say "now, if it hadn't been for us these little girls would not be dead," you see. If they wanted to kill somebody why didn't they kill us. These innocent 01:58:00little girls. Your righteous rage took over and if you had a weapon you could mow White folk down and you would just mow them down in retaliation. You had to get a hold of yourself.

Terrible experience, terrible experience, seeing them hauling out these items and what-not of those little girls. It was a nauseating kind of thing.

A traumatic experience. When I left there feeling bad, I went down toward my car and there was a group of Black young men with piles of rocks. Every car that passed with a White face they were throwing rocks. I got there in time, there was a little White lady on the passenger side and a little White man on the 01:59:00driver side. They had knocked his window out and his face was a bloody mess. They were proceeding to stone her. I walked and got in between them. They said, "Rev. don't do this. Stop don't do this, you know this is one of them." They were mad. They were hot. They picked up stones and started to throw them at me. So, I backed off. I said then that this thing was getting out of hand. We're not going to be able to keep control of Black folk all the time under these kinds of provocative circumstances.

So, that is what happened in that situation. You know, that same day instead of 02:00:00there being a remorseful attitude throughout the city, some young White boys shot Virgil Ware off his bicycle on the outskirts of town. Some Black boys, who were upset and angry about the death of these little girls, were doing the only thing that these boys could do, they were throwing rocks. The police came out and the police would pursue them and they would run. This particular time someone threw rocks and the police pursued them and one policeman took his shotgun and shot one of these young boys in the back and killed him. I'll never 02:01:00forget him. He was a member of my father's church. I was asked to preach his funeral. We had his funeral over at New Pilgrim. So, it wasn't just four little girls who died in that blood bath as a result of that hate. It was two little boys, too and we don't say too much about them. Ware and Jackson, this young man who was shot in the back. The policeman didn't have to kill him because he threw rocks. So, that showed you how remorseful some people were.

Soon after that, the first interracial committee met. I was one of the persons on that committee. We met at city hall. I never will forget that day. Mayor Boutwell came in, tears were coming down his cheek. I always thought they were crocodile tears, I never thought he was serious. By the same token, we met at a strategy session trying to [inaudible] and some other folk. He was a huge man and he was crying. I said, "what is this, I can't believe these White folk are really touched like that." You know, we were enjoined to so far as marching was concerned and demonstrations. The judge handed down an injunction and I was part of the strategy committee wherever they met. This particular time, after the judge handed down that injunction, Dr. King's daddy was there, I think Wyatt was there, most of us was there. We were debating that we had never had this before. We can't buck a judge's injunction because we would be guilty of contempt and we would be put in jail. So, the sentiment was that we could not violate the injunction. Dr. King was just sitting there and all at once he got up and I thought he was just going to refresh himself. But he comes back with his marching clothes on and he announces to us that we could do what we wanted to do, but he had to march, injunction, or no injunction, contempt or no contempt. That settled that. (Laughing)

HANSON: So you all marched?

WOODS: There was nothing else we could do. I think his daddy tried to talk to him, but he said he had to march. So, he did. I believe that was on Good Friday when he went to jail again. So, I'll stop there.

HANSON: Let me ask you a question, Rev. Woods. Yours is a incredible story. You partook in history, that is something remarkable. What final message do you want to say to future generations that might see what we're talking about. It was a part of history, it was, maybe, in someways less complicated, cause things were very clear. What would you say to future generations?

WOODS: I would say to future generations that if you are not willing to die for something, you're not fit to live. When a struggle is going on in your day and time, take the advice of Dr. King. When there's a good fight going on, get in it. I'm glad I got in it. Looking back, if I had not been involved I would be ashamed of myself. But I'm proud of the fact that I had enough commitment to be a part of the struggle and to associate [with] Shuttlesworth when they called him the chief fool and called all us little fools following Shuttlesworth. We thought about it sometime and we didn't like to be called that, but we continued to follow him. They said we were crazy, he was crazy and this sort of thing.

I'm glad that I didn't succumb to the position of status quo but that I was willing to suffer if need be and give my life as an installment payment on freedom. My message to young people is that you've got to be willing to stand up for something and you've got to stand up. As Dr. King said, "they can't ride you by if you stand up, you're somebody." We all had to come to understand that. We had to understand that Black is beautiful. That regardless of the color of your skin, God had endowed us with intelligence. That we were capable of doing anything that anybody else was doing and do some things better. The legacy of Dr. King is that you're somebody, that you have some power to help change your situation.

HANSON: Thank you, Rev Woods.